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Host Victoria Guido welcomes Wendell Adams, CEO of PrimeLab.io, as he talks about his lifelong passion for technology and entrepreneurship. Wendell shares his experiences, from hacking electronics as a child to studying various fields in college and eventually starting his own business. He emphasizes the importance of understanding market needs and leveraging language to make technology accessible. Wendell's drive to improve encryption and data security led to the formation of PrimeLab; a company focused on making encryption functional and accessible without compromising performance. Wendell discusses PrimeLab's strategic direction and market fit. He outlines the challenges and opportunities in the entertainment industry, emphasizing the need for innovative solutions that respect user control and privacy. Wendell also shares insights into how PrimeLab's technology can democratize data access and enhance business processes. The episode concludes with a reflection on the future of AI and encryption technologies and Wendell's advice for aspiring entrepreneurs to think critically and creatively about their ventures. PrimeLab.io (https://primelab.io/) Follow PrimeLab.io on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/primelab-io/), or X (https://x.com/PrimeLab4). Follow Wendell Adams on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendell-a-83317895/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript:  AD: We're excited to announce a new workshop series for helping you get that startup idea you have out of your head and into the world. It's called Vision to Value. Over a series of 90-minute working sessions, you'll work with a thoughtbot product strategist and a handful of other founders to start testing your idea in the market and make a plan for building an MVP. Join for all seven of the weekly sessions, or pick and choose the ones that address your biggest challenge right now. Learn more and sign up at tbot.io/visionvalue.  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Wendell Adams, CEO at PrimeLab io. Wendell, thank you for joining us. WENDELL: Thanks for having me. So, question, actually, where'd you guys come up with the name? VICTORIA: You know, I have asked this before, and I think I remember the answer. I might have to go back to the 500th episode to get it, but I think it was just robots was already kind of a theme at thoughtbot. I mean, thoughtbot, obviously, has robot in the name. Joe might have the best answer. And we have our special co-host, Joe Ferris. Who better to answer? JOE: [chuckles] Yes, I'm not sure who better to answer, probably Chad. I don't remember the answer either, but happy to be here to speculate with the two of you. It comes from the blog. We named the blog Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and then used it for our podcast. But I don't remember where the blog name came from. WENDELL: It kind of reminds me of the Robot Wars thing, like, where they would have competitors driving around the robots and then smashing into each other, trying to flip them over and disable them. JOE: That was excellent. I also watched that. WENDELL: [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, it's a pretty great name. I really enjoy being a host. And, you know, I go out to local San Diego events and meet people and introduce myself as a co-host of Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. It's usually pretty funny [laughter], which is where I met you, Wendell; we met at a San Diego CTO Lunches, which was super fun. WENDELL: Yeah, I always enjoy any type of tech conversation or anything else. I thought that was a lot of fun to sit down and just talk with people and talk about what they're working on. VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And before we dive into the tech and get to hear more about PrimeLab, I just want to start a little more socially question. What did you do last weekend, Wendell? WENDELL: It was my father-in-law's birthday party at Legoland. We took my daughters my mother-in-law, and we all went to Legoland. It was a lot of fun. Although, honestly, I prefer the San Diego Zoo over Legoland, so... VICTORIA: Can you please describe what Legoland is to people who may not know? WENDELL: Okay. Legoland is based in Carlsbad, and it's really ideal for, like, four to nine-year-olds. And they have, like, miniatures of all the different cities. Actually, the SF miniature that they have is crazy detailed with Chinatown and everything else. They did an amazing job there. They actually...I think they just redid the San Diego part of it. But the miniatures are really cool, seeing all this stuff. They have different rides performers, but it's definitely, like, one of those things that it's more for kids to go and kind of experience. If you're an adult, you're going to love a lot of the processes that go into place, like how they built things, but mostly, yeah, it's very much kid rides and stuff like that. VICTORIA: I imagined it to be, like, life-size Lego buildings, but maybe I'm...that's very interesting all those other things you could do there. WENDELL: Well, like, they have the One World Trade Center, and I think it's, like, 25 feet tall. It is, like, the replica of it. It's kind of interesting, too, because not all the Legos that they build, they're huge, are solid Legos. So, it's like, they'll do where it's like, on the outside, they'll do a base, and then they'll build it. There's a replica of a Lamborghini. That one's life-size. But it's heavy. It's, like, 2,000 pounds, something like that. VICTORIA: Is that as much as a regular Lamborghini weighs, too, 2,000 pounds? It can't be that far up. WENDELL: I don't know. No, I don't think it...no, it couldn't be. VICTORIA: I have no idea how much cars [laughs] weigh. What about you, Joe? Did you do anything fun this weekend? JOE: Not a lot. It was supposed to be my son's first soccer game ever, but it rained here in Boston, so they postponed it. Sunday he went to my parents' house for a grandma day, and so I did nothing. I ate cookies. WENDELL: [laughs] VICTORIA: Wait, what kind of cookies were they, though? JOE: They were chocolate chip cookies. VICTORIA: That's so good. JOE: They were good. They were brown butter chocolate chip cookies, I should say. VICTORIA: Were they homemade, or did you get them somewhere? JOE: They were. We made them in this home. VICTORIA: Oh, that's the best. Yeah, love that. I got some fancy cookies that someone else made, and they were also [laughs] very good. And then, yeah, I've just been having cookies pretty much every day. So, that's been my time. WENDELL: My mother-in-law recently made me peanut butter cookies, and those are my favorite kind of homemade cookies. VICTORIA: Okay. Noted. You'll get a post-podcast gift of peanut butter cookies [laughter]. I love that. It's so great to hear a little bit more about each of you as, like, in a personal way before we dive into AI. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what led you to PrimeLab. WENDELL: I've always kind of, like, been a hacker, so to speak, just from a technical standpoint. My one grandfather was an engineer. He worked for GM designing, like, assembly arms and stuff like that. And then my other grandfather was a master electrician. So, I've always been the person that, like, just worked on things, got stuff together. You know, there's a lot of stories. Like, there's the story about when I broke my grandmother's workbench, rocking bench out front, and it was all aluminum. I remember telling my grandfather, and he's like, "Oh, what are you going to do?" And I was like, "Buy a new one?" He's like, "You got money?" I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you better figure how to make it then." So, ironically, it's half aluminum, half wood. We took wood, sanded it down, and stuff. So, it's just like I've always been an entrepreneur. I've always been interested in this kind of stuff. I used to hack VCRs, and PlayStations, and all kinds of stuff. I always liked parts and components and rewiring things. And as I got older, I also really liked math and all those things. And I wanted to understand more about how the world works, so to speak, like why it works the way it does, not just from a technology standpoint. But why do people think the way that they do? Why do things behave the certain way they do? So, initially, I started going to college. I thought I might be a math professor, and then decided to get degrees in business, economics, finance, marketing, consumer product goods, and comparative religions. So, while I was in college, I started working on, like, hacking, different video games, writing JavaScript, writing Java, all kinds of stuff. And then, eventually, even writing mobile applications early on, and then just analyzing because I always liked to build phones, too. I would take apart phones. And I really was curious about, like, how to make things faster, more efficient, and better. So, now to bring it down, like, how to make things accessible, where it benefits some of the smallest people and make it where it's a greater opportunity for someone to come out ahead of something. Like, one thing that I learned from my marketing degree is language matters. So, it's like, all the marketing it's not anything special. It's just they intentionally create language barriers that cause people not to feel as accessible with it. And then, like, you hire a consultant or something to just basically teach you about those language barriers. And I think every industry has, like, SAT, or LTM, or something like these abbreviations that mean a lot of different things. And it causes bottlenecks if you don't speak the language. So, understanding the language but also learning about how was very helpful from a standpoint on the marketing side. And I always try to figure out how do I make this accessible to people who don't understand that language? VICTORIA: And what was the turning point where you decided to start PrimeLab, and what made you realize there was a company there? WENDELL: It was a project I've been working on since at least 2011, honestly. And just as a heads up, PrimeLab as a whole works with encrypted data for AI models and to speed that up and everything else. So, early on, I was very obsessed with how advertising works through, like, stealing user data, which stealing is different, here or there, the sense of privacy, the sense of, like, how things could run, and the sense of messaging. And initially, a lot of it was using encryption as an overlay in, like, the pixel application space, which is always a way to hack or get into it. And it slows everything down. So, I had always been working on trying to figure out how do you speed up and embed security so it's actually functional? And it took a while to figure out, like, give encryption functionality, like, make the encryption something that you could actually execute on. And, actually, one of the things that really helped is the blockchain space there's a lot of, like, hash trees and everything else, like, where people are innovating in that. That's really helped innovate encryption as a whole from understanding, like, Merkle trees, hash graphs, and everything else to make it more functional and faster. Because people are trying to speed up distributed networks and stuff, but the actual technology that they built, like Hedera is...What Hedera has done with Hashgraphs and everything else—really amazing. I'm glad that they open-source stuff like that. But it's also really interesting just to see how things push forward. So, like, when I first started, like, RAM was, like, 256 in a phone. So now, you know, you can get multiple gigabytes, which makes it a lot more capable to do encryption, decryption, and work more in the functional space of things. The bigger problem that you have on the data part is how an application communicates because there's so many levels of abstraction. Like, you have the Swift language that communicates into something else that then communicates into something else. Like, right now, we're talking on a system that's recording us over the internet through a browser, all those different things. And it's an approximation of what the data is and what we sound like. It's not an absolute. So, I was really interested in when you have absolutes, and you can verify those absolutes, what can you do with that? A few years ago, I felt like we got to a point where we could actually execute those things and actually deliver on that. So, therefore, I decided to start PrimeLab with my co-founder, who I really liked and enjoyed. And we've had a lot of really great advisors, where people have helped us continuously. Over, you know, the decade-plus of working on this, I've gotten a lot of input from some of the smartest people I know, from people who have designed full server racks for AWS to literally a good friend of mine that built cloud storage. His name's on the patent for it. So, that kind of stuff has really helped me understand and build this where it can communicate the lowest possible level. VICTORIA: Yeah, and to just recap and reflect that back a little bit, it sounds like you were always interested in how to make encryption faster and lighter weight, and so you could build it in and build in security without impacting the performance of the applications. And then meeting your co-founder and the advancement of technology, this time a couple of years ago, led you to think, okay, let's really go forward with this. WENDELL: Kind of rephrasing, I was always interested in control. So, like, one of the things that really interested me...so, I started a video game store buying and selling, like, video games and trading cards and stuff when I was roughly ten and a half or so, and then sold it roughly when I was 17, which is how I paid for quite a bit of college and likewise. But the things that really interested me about that is it went out of business three to four months afterwards because the person who basically bought the rest of it bought too much of Madden. And Madden, at this time, the margins were, like, a buck, as you go all the way through, and the price drops immensely. So, I wanted to really understand why that happened. What you kind of get to is, like, they didn't have control over it, just, like, the bulk orders methodology, where they would buy the whole entire supply. And what I've seen over the years, be it Apple, Google, or anything else, is, like, that was...in that example, that's a game publisher, EA, flexing control, right? But more and more companies are flexing control on a platform like now with Facebook or advertising. If you think about what Google used to do, Google used to provide a lot more insights when you had your own website. You used to know your own keywords. You used to know a lot of things about your users who come through. More and more, Facebook and Google try to stop that. And they're really the ones determining your own user personas for you. So, you become dependent upon them. So, I wanted to say, okay, from a business standpoint, how do you implement control and privacy where it's permissioned? And encryption was one of the answers that I came to. But then it was, how do you make encryption functional then to actually execute on control? Because unless the system is secure, faster, cheaper, better, it's never going to get adopted. VICTORIA: That makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned your founder. I'm curious, how does your founder kind of complete what you needed to be able to get the business up and running and off the ground? WENDELL: He has a robotics degree, so he had launched several products that had failed. And he wanted to learn marketing after they had failed. So, we have a similar like mindset about, like, control and functionality for how something may or may not work, and that allowed us to communicate well. So, like, I have a lot of friends and stuff. But the thing that allows me and my co-founder to work really well is that we come from things in different angles, but we have the same language that we speak. So, like, that's what I was talking about before, like, LTMs or otherwise, like, language really matters from how you can move something forward when you're talking in different industries. And just with him, there's a lot of stuff that you don't have to say. You can skip a lot of filler and then go straight to what something might be or a solution or something. Or if we have to jump to a tech abbreviation, to a market abbreviation, to a financial abbreviation, he's one that can follow along with me really quickly and then teach me a lot of things about operational execution because he's great at operations. I am not great at operations. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And I think you're making a good point about, like, a shared language. And it reminds me of any product that you're building; if you want to sell it to a company and you want them to adopt it, you have to consider their language, their belief system, how to influence change within the organization. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that with your experience at PrimeLab. WENDELL: I'll give you an example of a market that we decided to go after. So, instead of just working at, like, healthcare markets where you have, like, GDPR...for people who don't know GDPR or HIPAA, HIPAA is for the United States. GDPR is the EU privacy requirements, right? For the right to be forgotten and everything else. So, these are vernaculars that you need to know. But the requirements of each one is very different, and these are markets that we've learned being in tech and likewise. But we wanted to change it up. So, I wanted to go after the entertainment market as a whole, namely because after meeting with some select people, including a stunt man, this is going back a few years ago, I started to realize that the entertainment market was getting kind of screwed over quite a bit from a tech standpoint. Basically, tech goes through this thing where...someone wrote a great article about this. It's called Enshittification. But, basically, where they go they try to take over a whole entire market, where first they're providing great value to your users. And then, gradually, you enshittify your product to provide greater value to your investors. And then, gradually, you suck all of the value out of the room for both. Right now, if you look at Sora, what OpenAI is trying to do in entertainment, [inaudible 16:08], you kind of can see that happening. They're going, "Hey, here's a great value for it." And they're really pushing that stuff off. But the thing about the entertainment market that I think is really interesting is it's basically thousands and thousands of small businesses that are constantly going, it's so chaotic. It's not like tech and startups. There's a lot of overlay of, like, you know, people are looking for that top quartile film that's going to make the money back, and then long-term royalties that they can earn off of it, right? Whereas in tech, they're looking for those huge markups as well. So, I was really fascinated by it, but it was something that, like, we had to learn. Like it was something that I didn't know otherwise. So, it was literally...how we learned it was we took our tech stuff, and we would walk SAG-AFTRA strike lines. We would walk strike lines. We would go to entertainment events, and we would demo what we were trying to do, and we would show them. And then, oftentimes, we got really negative feedback right off the bat. And we're like, "No, no, no, so, you know, this is for you. Like, you could control. Like, this is going to help you." And then, after doing that enough times, talking to the SAG-AFTRA lawyers, and everything else from there, and all of the creatives, the creatives were coming to us and giving us ideas how to explain it because there's, like, three different formats. You have tech, business, creatives in the entertainment industry. And it's like, we could talk to the tech people. We could talk to the business people. But you really need the creatives. And, like, the wording of each one, like, each group of those is vastly different. So, having the creatives be able to explain something in 90 seconds that used to take me a couple of hours to dive into became really valuable. And also, in tech, like, you have this thing where it's feature creep, where you're like, oh, I'll add this, this, and this. Just to hear very coldly and bluntly, like, "If it does X, I'm interested. If it does Y, I'm not interested." That was very interesting or refreshing of, like, "Yes, you're going to solve these problems. But I need sign-off for everything in there." And it's kind of weird in the entertainment part, too. Like, you want to solve a problem without being a competitor to another vendor because you need so many different sign-offs. And if you're a competitor to another vendor, to a certain point, maybe that's going to cause a hiccup with sign-offs because there's 18 different cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, just so many different people that need to say, "Yes," all the way through with it. VICTORIA: Thank you. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm curious, Joe, if you have an answer for that question as well, like, any experiences about navigating change and putting new products in place at different clients, different industries? JOE: I don't think I've had the same kind of resistance. Like, I haven't been on the front lines the way you described, like, literally in the, you know, going and talking to people on strike. I think I have more indirect experience talking to the people who are doing that. And certainly, like, I think there's generally a resistance to bringing in new technology without eliminating the old way of doing things if that makes sense. Like, people want the old ways of backup. Like they want to be able to go back to paper, which I empathize with. But that's frequently been a challenge for the people I've worked with is that they don't fully embrace the new process, which significantly reduces the value they would get from using it. I don't know if that's something you've encountered with PrimeLab. WENDELL: So, we were building another company of mine many, many, many years ago. I was building a website for this lumber company, and I remember showing up, and the owner was there. But it was his son that had commissioned it, and the owner didn't know about the website. And I was like, "Oh yeah, we'll get the website going." He goes, "Oh, this web thing it's a fad. It's never going to happen. You don't need websites. It's faxes." That's how everything would happen. But secretly, what was happening is they would get an order. They would print it off, and then they would fax it. So [laughs], I always thought that was crazy. VICTORIA: I mean, one of my local bars still just writes the order on a ticket and sends it on a clothesline down to the grill. So [laughs], sometimes old is good. But I think that you know, I want to hear more about where you found or how you found a product-market fit for PrimeLab and where that AI really becomes useful and ethical in the industry you're focusing on WENDELL: How I look at PMF (product-market fit)...and if you hear me just say PMF, that's what that means. So, how I look at PMF is I'm a little different in the fact that when I look at a product, or a technology, I don't just look at, like, so you have foundational tech. Like, okay, this is encryption. This is control, right? Now, where's the market that has the biggest problems with it? So, I like to go out and actually talk to those people. Because, like, when you're implementing tech, or you're implementing the product itself, it's different. So, you're like, you have the underlying infrastructure, but whether that's a button or a simple API that you need to build so it works different to hit that PMF...are you familiar with the term build a better mousetrap? VICTORIA: I don't think so. JOE: I'm familiar, but I'd still love to hear you describe it. WENDELL: So, in business school, and likewise, they will tell you "If you build a better mousetrap, people will come, and they will buy your product." So, like, it's a common thing where they're like, "Build a better mousetrap. People will come. They'll be there." And the thing that you learn with consumer product goods and marketing, though, is they actually built a better mousetrap, and it failed. And the reason why it failed is you had a mousetrap that was roughly a cent versus another mousetrap that was three cents. And I think this is in the '60s or so. The other mousetrap was reusable, so it executed a lot better, and everything else is more humane. But what they didn't understand is that it was wives most of the time that would have to actually handle this. And they didn't want the mouse alive, and they didn't want to reuse the trap. They wanted them to actually be disposed of right away. So, by not understanding the market, even though they built a better mousetrap, they'd missed the point. Like, the main problem to solve wasn't killing the mouse or having it be reusable. The main problem to solve was, like, getting rid of the mouse. So like, if you have a solution for getting rid of the mouse, the next thing is your execution for it. Like, does it hit the actual market, which is the fit aspect? Like, every product is a little bit different where you look at, like, how does this fit in? So, in this case, fit is very important for, like, disposing of the mouse, which is why you also have, like, you know, mouse poisons are popular, even though they're terrible because they die somewhere and, hopefully, you don't see them. And it's like sight unseen, right? Now, I'm glad, like, that's changing and stuff. But it's understanding even if you have a solution to something, you need to understand what your market wants out of your solution, and it's not going to be an abstract. It's going to be an emotional, like, execution-based process. So, you kind of have to go, all right, this is my market. This is kind of my fit. But the actual product I'm building is going to change to make sure it works all the way through with this. I was advising a startup many, many years ago, and they were building this CRM software on Android for South America. And I think they were building it for Android 6 or 7 at the time. But the market that they were targeting, they all ran Android 4.1. So, they spent a little over a million dollars building for the wrong version of Android that wouldn't even work on that version of the system. Like, it was one of those things where they were required to build it for that. But they didn't understand the actual market, and they didn't spend enough time researching it. So, it's like you get the Bay Area groupthink. If they had actually spent the time to analyze that market and go, "Oh, they run, you know, an inexpensive phone. It's 4.1. It's low RAM," now you can design a product. If you want it to be a CRM, you're going to, like, chunk up the system more. Like, you're going to change all that instead of just wasting a million dollars building something that now you basically have to start over again from scratch. VICTORIA: That seems like he got off cheap, too. People make way bigger mistakes that cost way more money [laughs] because they [inaudible 24:13] WENDELL: Well, that wasn't me. That was an investor that -- VICTORIA: Oh no. I mean, yeah, not just them. Yeah. WENDELL: He's like, "What would you do?" And I was like, "You should sell this company or sell your stake ASAP because that's a really bad sign." JOE: I have found that the answer nobody ever wants when you're doing product validation or testing product fit is, "You should not build this product." The idea that the software just shouldn't be written is universally unpopular. WENDELL: Yes [laughs]. That's, you know, that's part of the reason why it took me so long to do PrimeLab is because, like, it took a long enough for the software to actually need to be written, if that makes sense. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. VICTORIA: What does success look like now versus six months or even five years from now? WENDELL: I take a different approach to this because I have so many friends that have sold their businesses. They raise and everything else. I look at success as instead of an exit or another large thing, like, literally, we turned down a billion-dollar term sheet offer. I didn't like the terms. I didn't like what it would do from the control standpoint of the technology. What I care about is go-to-market and, like, adoption and actually getting the tech out there in a way that has market penetration but, like, that adds value to every person's life. VICTORIA: Yeah, maybe say more about that. Like how do you see AI and this technology you have with PrimeLab benefiting people and benefiting the industry that you're working within? WENDELL: So, the current AI models are kind of weird. They're basically just filter systems because they communicate in pixel space and then go down to functional space. It's the GPU. GPUs are actually terrible to use for AI. This is why you have dedicated AI chips getting built. Hopefully, the RISC-V chipset does actually do something because that's a chipset that I think it's an open-source chipset, but you can actually especially build models on it. So, I think that we're going to see a lot more in the RISC-V chipset where it's like, this is just for one particular image, or this is just for explosions, or this is just for touching up all these different points in the actual individual, like, microcontroller module data that ends up compiling to move forward with it. But the AI models now it's like you took the internet, and you're trying to ask it a probability question, what I was talking about before, where it's not an absolute. So, it's like, if I want to do an OCR system or anything, I take an image. It's got to say, "This is..." letters; it's going to recognize that. So, there's, like, multiple models and algorithms that need to run on that whole entire process. You even have artificial data, but all of that information is an approximation. It's not an absolute. If you want absolute, you can get a lot of absolute data from the actual hardware devices themselves. You know, take a Sony camera. You could see the lighting. You could see the raw information, everything else there. But because of how expensive it is, people compress it. Like, take YouTube where it's compressed, and now you're training off of it. You're trying to compress it more and then run an algorithm so that you don't have to actually process those large, raw files all the way through. That's just a bad infrastructure for compute. You're trying to reduce, but you're also trying to utilize what you own for rights, same thing, contextual, or anything else there. There's no value in a model. Once a model is out there, it's just weights moving it back and forth. The value is in the data and the applications. So, the actual data itself that's going in. So, if you have just lava scenes, like, having all that data for lava, and I want to put it in a background, now I can do that, but more importantly, it's not about just adding it into the background. The thing that is often missed is contextually the output. So, like, say I want to do a financial report. Rather than having the data of all financial reports out there, what I want as the input is my financial data. And what I want as, like, a fine-tuning output is an example of the reports that were generated. And I don't want those reports as the input to inform the output because that's where you get a hallucination. Maybe it starts grabbing financial data from someone else. And I also think we're in store for a lot more hacks because with not just poisoning data, which we do in the functional space, if someone tries to access it. But, I mean, literally, there's the story...I think the guy was in Hong Kong, where they faked his board all the way through with it. Because you have agents acting and executing on people's behalf, you're going to have systems where people go onto the hardware and start generating fake financial numbers. And now that's going to get reported. Or you pay an invoice that you weren't supposed to pay because someone manipulated your AI agent. And a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now from Microsoft and everything else that's not really where the models will go. It's great to do it, but it's kind of like we're in the dial-up stage of AI. Like [chuckles], dial-up has its use cases and stuff, but it's nowhere near what the tech will look like in the future, and it's nowhere near how it will function. And one of the big pushbacks that you see, like, from Google, from all these different places, like, they want your attention. But at the end of the day, Google's an ad company. Facebook's an ad company. It's not in their best interest to have hyper-localized data that you control for your models and likewise. They want it in the cloud. They want it used there, where they can control that data, and they can monetize and advertise for you. But at the same time, like AI models work the best, and AI applications work the best when the data set is limited, so it can't hallucinate, and when the outputs are actually controlled to what it should be from an informed standpoint. So, where we're at this is just in the beginning stages of stuff. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. I think if you could go back in time when you first started PrimeLab and give yourself some advice, what would you say? WENDELL: You know, I lived through the Great Recession. The Great Recession informed me a lot more. The things that I didn't understand this time...like the Great Recession, was market contributors doing stuff that impacted everyone with their spend and their adoption, and how those things were. But the Fed raising interest rates, which is, you know, Silicon Valley Bank failed and stuff like that, that dynamic of those startups and, like, how much startups power everything, like, I would have advised myself to pay more attention to the Fed and those market dynamics going forward. Because what changed is it's not just the Silicon Valley Bank failed it, you know, Rippling went down, for instance, which would pay therapists in Florida and all kinds of stuff. Like, it broke so many different things. It caused bottlenecks in business that we're still going through. Like, everyone's like, "Oh, we're getting back to normal." Really not. It's still, like, delayed all the way through it. The AI aspect is really getting back to normal, where people are really pushing AI. But if you look at SaaS and other industries, it really, really slowed down. And the reason why that matters is, like, in my field, production and timelines matter. So, when you have that plus, you know, the entertainment strike and everything else, you have things where the actual production of things starts slowing down immensely. Whereas AI is one of the few things that you still have innovations because that never really slowed down, same thing with the models. But all the rest of the industries and stuff have really slowed down. And understanding what that means from an operational execution standpoint...it's a good thing I have my co-founder [inaudible 32:24]. It matters quite a bit because it means your team sizes have to change, how you handle certain clients has to change. Because once those companies start downsizing or laying off people for whatever reason like, that's going to change how you're working with them, and their requirements are going to change as well. VICTORIA: And what do you see on the horizon as a challenge or a big hurdle that you face as a company or as an industry? WENDELL: You know, the entertainment market's really interesting from all the different sign-offs. The challenge is more execution of timeline. So, like, if you're doing something with, like, Nvidia and the healthcare thing, it could take years. If you're doing something in, like, the IoT space, you know, also years. If you do something in the entertainment space, it could take weeks to months, except the large studios. The larger studios, it could take a couple of years as well. But going to market, I think, is a very big challenge, not just for us but the whole entire industry. I mean, there's a reason why Sam Altman came down to LA to meet with studios, to try and get stuff moving forward. And I think one of the things that he's forgetting is like, you think of Netflix. Netflix is streaming. In order for that to work, they needed Roku, and they needed Kevin Spacey because [chuckles]...it's crazy to say that, but House of Cards is kind of what made it, right? And Hollywood was mostly boxing them out quite a bit. Same thing with Blockbuster otherwise. They had to drop a hundred million dollars, a large enough bankable star at the time that would really push something forward. And they had to basically really push Roku out there so that they had PMF across the board. What that means, though, is, like, Netflix is paying for content like crazy, right? So, this is kind of enshittification in a process. So, they're paying for content like crazy. So, now Hollywood's making money. They like it. At the studios, they don't love it when their stuff's going there because maybe it's less money, but now they start cutting the seasons short. They start cutting...it's a lot more algorithmic-driven. You have the ad systems that sort of come out. So, now, like, Netflix is not just doing ads where the customer experience is getting worse, but now, also, the business experience for those partners selling stuff is also getting worse, and all that value is getting driven to Netflix. Like, that's the tech system and Hollywood's learned that. But, like, when you're looking at the next adoption, like, they're hesitant for that. Just like a lot of stuff with AI, they're hesitant because they're thinking about all the power and control that they gave up. But you have to show how they're going to make money. You can't just cut costs, right? If you can't show how they're going to make money, you're not going to get adopted. That's kind of what I like there because so much of tech is about saving costs and being more efficient. In the entertainment industry, it's not just those two things. It's how can I make more money? And it's going to, like, ooh, you can monetize your content through training samples and stuff like that. So, our model goes exactly against what the large tech companies have where they want to take content, train on it, like the search engine does, suck the value off Sam Altman's Sora. Ours goes, all right, this is your content. Only you own this. You can take your own content, train it, and then perform this operation on it that is more efficient likewise. And if you choose to monetize it in any way, shape, or form, we can just take the functional space, not all the images and no one will ever see it, and take that functional space for training so that you can actually monetize from that as well. VICTORIA: I love that. Super interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. And do you have any questions for me or for Joe? WENDELL: I've noticed a lot of differences on, like, applications and how systems are built. So, I'm kind of curious about you guys' standpoint about applications, you know, the Apple Vision Pro. Facebook just said they'd start licensing out their AI system, or Meta, whatever. So, you have the comparisons to Android versus iOS that's happening, stuff like that. So, I'm really curious about, like, you guys' thoughts on the Vision Pro and that ecosystem. JOE: Well, I can't speak for all of thoughtbot, but I can say that, to me, it was interesting to see that get released. And it's been interesting to see how aggressively Meta and Apple have been pursuing the various VR markets. Like it reminds me of when television companies and studios worked really hard to get 3D movies to be a thing. WENDELL: [laughs]. JOE: Because I think they just ran out of things that people are asking for. Like, people were interested in getting better resolutions up to a point. Like, they wanted better packaging. But it got to a point where it was like, they didn't want to give anybody anything they were asking for. So, they were like, what if it's in 3D? And, like, for years, it seemed like Apple was really on top of seeing what people really wanted, and being able to present a very well-prepared version of that product before other companies were able to. And, personally, it's not what I saw with the Apple Vision Pro. Like, it wasn't the obvious missing space that was there when the iPhone or the iPad showed up. WENDELL: Yeah, I always go back to, like, the "Why?" question. You know, previously when...even just before we had talked, I was talking about comparative religions, and why that's so valuable is because it really teaches you...again, I've had this conversation before, but the comparative religions, if you think about religion as a tech company, they're always trying to solve why. Like, why did the sun come up? Why did this happen, right? And you always have to do that. So, apply that to technology, Google or Apple, why does this product exist? And when you get to, like, it just existed to make money, I think that's really the 3D thing. Whereas, like, why did the iPhone exist? It existed to solve this problem of being portable on the go and getting information in the way that we communicated, too. VICTORIA: Yeah. I think the Apple Vision Pro appeals to a very specific market segment and that that segment is not me [laughter]. I, actually, during COVID...after...it was, like...yeah, we're still in COVID. But during the pandemic, I moved from DC to California. And to connect with some old friends, I bought a VR headset and decided to go to virtual coffee with them. And it just makes me nauseous. And it actually affects...quite a lot of women get nauseous in VR. For some people, the look—the capability is really exciting. They have the extra money to spend on gadgets, and that's what they like. And it's very appealing, and the, like potential, is really interesting. I just find it for myself. Personally, I'm more drawn to tech that's not maybe cutting edge but solves problems for actual people. And kind of why I'm interested in PrimeLab, what you were mentioning is just how artists can use this technology to protect their creative work. To give that power back to people and that control over their content, I think, is really interesting rather than...I'm not really sure what I would do with the Apple Vision Pro [laughs]. Like, the early ones, I mean, it's cool. It's fun. I definitely enjoy it. Like, I sometimes like to learn about it, but it's not my passionate genre of tech that I normally go for. WENDELL: Going back to what you just said about, like, control, like, part of the thing is because of the hash IDs that we put into place, like, you don't need analytics. You don't need cookies or anything else, like the content holder. Basically, like, if you have a TV set or something and you want to stream content to it, you can actually see that information directly yourself. So, it takes the person generating it and the person viewing it. It forms...we call them function access keys. It forms a one-to-one relationship, basically, where you guys know if you want to know what you want to know, but then you choose to give access to the platform if you want to, which changes the dynamic of control quite a bit. And it's interesting because when you look at platforms like the Apple Vision Pro, and you look at Apple's whole entire system as a whole, just trying to lock in people, I think it's interesting because something like what I just described, Apple can't really stop. It's how compute works. So, if people want to use it, there's nothing they could do to stop it from being used. So, I'm really interested in the product stuff and just more about, like, how...and I'm curious what you guys think on this, too. Especially as you see phones and processors and everything else, I'm really interested in, like, how these things come about, like, how things are actually built and developed and the why for that, like, in the everyday use. So, like, the Apple Watch it started off as a fashion thing, which looked like a money grab, and then the why was, oh yeah, fitness. So, just curious if you guys have seen any other products out there that you're like, oh, this really resonates with me and the why. JOE: Yeah, I'm not really a gadget person, but I think the idea of taking some of the capabilities that we've gotten with the internet and with phones and making them hands-free was interesting. And that, to me, was what I think started pushing the development of products like the Apple Watch or Google Glass. Like, I think that hands-free capability, the trade-off became rewarding in the fitness field, but I think it's more generically applicable. I think that technology it's too obtrusive in other scenarios and too bad at its job to do some of the things it could do. And people got creeped out by Google Glass. But it doesn't really seem like the Vision Pro fits in there. Something being successful hands-free means it becomes less obtrusive, whereas the Vision Pro is like you become a cyborg. VICTORIA: Do you have anything else you would like to promote? WENDELL: I wouldn't say necessarily promote as much as like people with ideas or aspirations, like, I think it's important that you think counter to what everyone else is doing. There's that line of, like, when everyone else is running in one direction, run the other. And it's like, if you have a business or startup idea, really think about your market. Like, think about why you're doing what you're doing, and don't be afraid to just go out there and talk to people. You will get value no matter who you talk to. So, like, I'm a hugely tech-based person. My wife is a therapist, and I learn from her everyday things about emotional intelligence and all kinds of things that I would be an idiot otherwise. But also, learn, like, you can always learn something from someone. Like, take the time to listen to them. Take the time to actually, like, try and figure out what's one thing I can learn from someone, even if, you know, I learn stuff from my daughters even. Like, don't put things in boxes. Like, try to think outside of like, how can I ask a question to learn? VICTORIA: I love that advice. That's great. WENDELL: Have you guys used Suno before? VICTORIA: That's music, right? Music AI. WENDELL: All right, I got to show you guys this. We're going to create you a quick theme song. Like, this is what I mean by, like, it's an interesting solution for why. VICTORIA: That does sound fun. I like the ones...like my friend's a doctor, and she uses AI to take her conversation she's having with patients and automatically fill out her notes. And it saves her, like, 20 hours of documentation every week. Like, I like that kind of app. I'm like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. WENDELL: What's a style of music that you guys really like? JOE: Swedish pop VICTORIA: Like ABBA [laughs]? I'm down for an ABBA Giant Robots theme song. Sounds great. WENDELL: I think you're going to like this. [Music Playing] VICTORIA: These are awesome. They're super fun. Thank you so much. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.  AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guest: Joe Ferris.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health. Pathfinder Health is an early-stage startup that provides objective insights into children's developmental health to pediatric clinics. Hans shares his journey, starting with his career on Wall Street, moving through various startup experiences, and finally, his pivotal role at Visa, which was significantly shaped by the tragic loss of his daughter, Aviva. This loss inspired him to focus on helping families get timely and accurate developmental diagnoses for their children. The episode highlights pediatricians' challenges in monitoring developmental health due to time constraints during appointments and the lack of detailed observation that these brief interactions afford. Hans explains how Pathfinder Health aims to address these challenges by enhancing the collaboration between parents and pediatricians through technology, providing detailed tracking and insights into a child's development outside of clinical visits. This includes innovative approaches like using machine learning to analyze video data of children in their natural environments, helping to pinpoint developmental milestones more accurately. Hans also discusses the broader implications of early and accurate developmental diagnosis by emphasizing the importance of using data to overcome the limitations of current medical practices. By integrating detailed developmental data into health records, Pathfinder Health hopes to transform pediatric care by being able to allow for earlier interventions for its patients. Pathfinder Health (https://www.pathfinder.health/) Follow Pathfinder Health on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/pathfinderhealth-inc/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/pathfinderhealth/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@pathfinderhealthapp), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@pathfinder.health), X (https://twitter.com/joinpathfinder), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/PathfinderHealthInc). Follow Hans Kullberg on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamidah-nalwoga-78143a255/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health, an early-stage pediatric developmental health tech startup focused on bringing objective insights on children's developmental health to pediatric clinics everywhere. Hans, thank you for joining us. HANS: Thank you, Will. Thank you, Victoria. It's really awesome to be here. VICTORIA: Great. Well, I met you at the San Diego Founders Hike at probably 7:30 in the morning on a Friday [laughs] a couple of weeks ago. So, tell me just a little bit more about what do you do for fun around San Diego? HANS: Yeah, I do a lot of fun. First of all, I'm a dad of four kids, so that keeps me busy, and it keeps my fun time relegated to the windows that I can do it. But I love to start morning surf right out here in Mission Beach in San Diego. I love to cook for a lot of people, house parties, and as well as hunger suppers. And then, I love playing saxophone when I can. VICTORIA: What's your favorite song to play on the saxophone? HANS: So, I'm messing around with it right now. I'm not great, but I'm learning Happy Birthday right now. VICTORIA: That's a great song, and you have a lot of birthdays to celebrate, it sounds like, over there. So, good to have that handy. HANS: Mm-hmm. Yep. VICTORIA: Well, awesome. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit more about your background and how it led to Pathfinder Health? HANS: My background is in data science and economics, and started my career actually on Wall Street, really looking at economic data, things like GDP and inflation, and macroeconomic variables like employment nonfarm payrolls. And I really tried to figure out a way to understand how to predict those at a very high degree of accuracy. That kind of led to my very first startup called, EconoCast, which was fairly successful. And that was exited back in 2013. Then I did a few other things, some startups that were successful, others that were not. But then I really wanted to kind of chop my teeth into product and really learn product from the inside out at a much bigger company. So, I joined the innovation team at Visa. I was working on Visa Acceptance Cloud, which is really kind of a point-of-sale solution in the cloud. So, if you're familiar with Apple Pay and Google Pay, it was pretty much the mirror image of that for receiving payments and accepting payments. And that really helps a lot of long-tail merchants, if you will, kind of in places like India, and Nigeria, Brazil, et cetera, that are traditionally accepting cash payments to be able to accept credit and debit payments. However, life took a turn. And while I was at Visa, my third child, Aviva, passed away. And there's, you know, a lot of backstory on that side, but she still doesn't have a diagnosis to this day. It was certainly the hardest part of my life and time of my life for my wife, my family. And I took some time off, really embraced the grieving process, but really tried to figure out what I wanted to do next. And really, that centered around a promise that I made to my daughter was to really try to get parents and families the answers that they deserve to really understand their diagnosis. So, I talked to a lot of different people in the healthcare community, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my particular background in data science and technology and building products to be able to kind of marry that with getting parents the answers that they need. And so, that's where I really came in contact with my co-founders at Pathfinder Health to really build what we believe is the most advanced way to really help pediatricians and providers understand how children are developing outside the clinic by collaborating, having parents and pediatricians really collaborate to understand the development across social, emotional, language, cognitive, and movement, all of those things that happen that require observation where pediatricians just have very little time. And we really kind of package that in a way to give them a snapshot of how they're developing relative to the peer group, to really kind of clarify a lot of these gray areas, if you will, and not take that wait-and-see approach, but rather to make that referral or diagnosis or get them on any kind of therapy that they need as soon as possible. And really, that's the diagnosis that this problem. The meta-problem that we're trying to solve is 25% of all children have some type of developmental delay, yet only 3% get diagnosed before the age of 3. And so, that's, you know, something very near and dear to my heart and something I'm working on every single day. That's how I got to where I am. WILL: Wow. I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. And I'll just be totally honest: that's one of my biggest fears as a dad. So yeah, I am so sorry to hear that about your daughter. What was that situation like? How long ago was it? And kind of not having to answer, like, where are you at with that? HANS: My daughter was born in January of 2020. Aviva lived for over ten months, and she passed away here in San Diego in November of 2020. I won't get into the background of it, but the short end of it is she never really had a diagnosis. But she had some anomalies that really created a condition called bradycardia, which is slow heart rate, only intermittently. It happened every couple of months. So, it wasn't really even a daily thing. Doctors didn't have any answers for it. We saw teams of specialists and I'm talking about cardiologists, neurologists, mitochondrial specialists, pulmonologists, every single type of specialist under the sun. But throughout six different hospitalizations and then the autopsy afterwards, they never figured out what the root cause was. And she had some signs that were different, but, you know, we live in this world where data is abundance. Generative AI is huge, right? We have all these tools and everything else, but yet when it comes to medicine, a lot of times we rely on the human knowledge of the physicians that we see. I'm not saying that they did anything wrong because they did the best they could. But what really upset me was that, you know, we go through this differential diagnosis of A, B, C, D, and this and the other, and they all strike out. You know, what's the backup plan? And that's where, you know, we should be using a lot more data at the big data level to really understand, you know, these anomalies. And maybe someone out there had something similar that she did or maybe a doctor in New York, or Boston, or Atlanta, or Miami somewhere would have known what to do. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. And really, that set me off my journey, really trying to understand that problem, in particular. There's a lot of things that kind of stand in the way from real AI being used in medicine. Of course, radiology is one exception. But when it comes down to interoperability of electronic health records as well as HIPAA, and privacy, and all the data silos they're in, Google's tried at this for a while to get to a place where you can have more precise type of data from a diagnostic perspective. Similar to the way that Facebook, and Amazon, and the Googles of the world know precisely how likely you are to click a button, I think medicine should be moving in that form and fashion. And so, yeah, that's really where I came across this journey. And the grieving process that's a whole 'nother subject as well, but I'm a very big believer in embracing that. Each of us took a year off and really just made sure that we were taking a lot of self-care and healing. And I went to therapy for the first time in my life, did a lot of writing and a lot of other therapeutic activities, including writing children's books. So, I'm a children's book author. And that's kind of what led me to finding out what I wanted to do on a day-in, day-out basis to help parents get the answers they need, knowing that, you know, mom and dad play a very big role in this, those first five years of life which, in my opinion, are the most critical and crucial and also the most precious years of your life. VICTORIA: You know, I really admire how you took such a painful moment and turned it into, how do I solve this problem for other people and really build community off of that as well? I don't have kids myself, but I have a niece and nephew who's two and four now. And I remember watching my sister-in-law try to keep track of all of the things that are happening for her child in the first year of their life, and it's not easy. And how do you identify if something has gone wrong? And I'm curious, like, what you learned from that process, or if you've learned anything about that process that's shifted your direction with Pathfinder. HANS: I mean, the biggest takeaway from my own personal experience is knowing that parents can play a very proactive role, an important role in the care for their child. And so, when you look at the pediatric visit, and, Will, you probably can relate to this, you know, for 15 minutes, you know, they're checking your eyes, ears, throat, heart, giving you your vaccines, et cetera. And there's a lot of different things they have to do to check off on their task list. But yeah, when it comes down to developmental health, we're talking about social, emotional cues, movement, cognitive, and language; it really requires observation. And they have very little time for that. Plus, you know, kids never [inaudible 08:49] themselves. There's well-child visits as well. It sort of leads to a lot of these gray areas. You know, on average, a pediatrician sees about 20 to 24 different kiddos a day, which is quite a heavy burden. They're definitely the most overworked and underpaid specialists across the whole healthcare system. But when you think about it, you know, what they do after the well-child visits is they give usually mom or dad a two-page handout of "This is..." you know, "Your child is two years old, and here's what you can do." A lot of times those handouts just, you know, get lost, and they're very not personalized. So, what we're doing we're a team of developmental-behavioral pediatricians, as well as early childhood specialist. We're talking about occupational therapists, physical therapists, child psychologists, and speech therapists. We're really combining all our interdisciplinary skills as well as machine learning experts on our team to be able to give parents the type of knowledge that's packaged in a way, on a parent level, that they really can understand how to track, monitor their child's growth and development. But also, if they're falling behind, or even if they're ahead, be able to enhance their development through daily activities that are tailored and customized to each individual's unique developmental trajectory. And so, we've come up with what's called developmental biomarkers, similar to what you know as height and weight charts, to really measure and monitor a child's progress versus peers. On the physical side, we're doing that across all of those developmental domains and being able to make those conversations, and insights, and visits with the doctor a lot more comprehensive in scope, including video-based data, where we kind of isolate the milestones. We call it smart detection, really show the parents what those milestones are happening. Parents know a lot about walking, talking, sitting, rolling over, but there's over 400 milestones that happen in the first five years of life. And so, being able to kind of understand pincer grip, you know, picking up a cheerio or looking when you call their name those are really big milestones that are very significant when it comes to determining where that child stands relative to their peers. So, yeah, that's a little how it works at a high level. WILL: Yeah. Wow. I want to go back and tell you this just so that...I try to whenever I think of something, especially positive, I just try to tell people. And so, like, your inspiration of how you dealt with your child's passing away and everything...because I think the statistics and what I've heard is most people hit a downward spiral. Most marriages don't make it. So, it's very inspiring to hear that you grieved and you worked through the process. So, I just want you to know that, like, that's super, even for me, that's super inspiring to know that that is even possible in that situation. So, I just want you to know that. HANS: Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought up that point. You're absolutely correct. I think over 50% of couples do get divorced after a death of a child. And a lot of times, it's not the event itself. Certainly, losing a child is very, very painful. But the cause of that separation is really the differences in the way that each other grieve, you know, the spouses grieve. And that's something that, honestly, you don't learn until you're going through it. And so, what we did was, just like other things in our life, we were very intentional about it and really sought out as much help and support through books. Books were fantastic, also grieving groups. There's a lot of great different grieving groups out there to really understand that, hey, you're not necessarily alone. Certainly, the pain of losing a child is definitely, in my opinion, the hardest thing that anyone can go through. But in terms of being able to empathize and even commiserate, but even to hear other people's stories, you start to learn, you know, what that journey looks like five years, ten years, 20 years down the road. But you also, you know, one of the things that I say is there's no right way to grieve at all. You can't tell someone how to grieve. But there is a wrong way to grieve. And I know that sounds like an oxymoron. But the wrong way to grieve is not doing it at all. And that's usually where we saw a lot of people kind of turn to negative addiction, or self-inflicted behaviors, or a lot of other things where they try to bottle it up, put it away, lock it in the closet and not think about it, you know, maybe bury their heads in work or any other kinds of addictions. That's something we learned very, very early on that we try to be conscientious of and try to really steer clear from. But, again, it's a very individually unique path, and I'm definitely not an expert at all, but have certainly learned, you know, tenfold what I didn't know about grief beforehand. And so, you really don't know grief until you actually go through it. In terms of being able to kind of parlay that into motivation to help others...and really, for me, that's my North star is really helping others, if that's helping detect diagnosis, or even, you know, just smiling to the person on the street, you know, that's what really gives me a lot of fulfillment. And so, in terms of that motivation, where does that come from, and how do you actually take that grief and transcend that into something productive like that? The only thing I can actually say to all the parents that are listening out there it's akin to when you hold your firstborn, especially when you become a new parent. And you have that magical feeling where you're holding that small, little infant in your arms. And you have this great burden of responsibility as well. And you start thinking to yourself, man, now it's not just my life that I'm in charge of. I'm in charge of this little human being's life, who you have to do everything for them. And so, that inspiration to be the better parent or better person that you feel as a new parent is only correlated, I would describe, to actually losing a child where that same feeling is, I would say, magnified times 3. And that's, you know, for me, I know my daughter's looking down on us, and I know that she's behind a lot of things that I'm doing, but I'm certainly inspired in a whole 'nother way apart from being just a parent. WILL: Yeah, definitely. You said something that really caught my attention. Like, it was around how when you're holding your child, like, you're responsible for your child. I have a background in sports medicine, spent four years doing it. I still have no idea a lot of medical history when it comes to a kid. I feel like majority of the items that you're supposed to be looking for or even thinking about is totally different with a kid. I don't know how to say this, but, like, the healthcare, the more that I have my kids, I'm seeing that there's different sides of healthcare. So, we moved from North Carolina. Our first pediatrician we loved. Every time we had an appointment, probably spent 30 to 40 minutes just talking us through, hanging out with our kids, asking questions. You know, they always gave us this list beforehand to say, "Hey, look out for these things. When you come in the office, we're going to ask you, 'Have you noticed it, or how are they doing with that?'" And then, we moved to South Florida, and it's been totally different. Totally different. We had to fire one pediatrician because it wasn't the same care. The pediatrician we're at now is a lot better, but it's nowhere near what North Carolina was. And so, there's a lot of times that we're questioning ourselves. It's like, what does the development of our kid look like? My oldest he had a tongue tie where he couldn't touch the top of his mouth, and we didn't know how important that was to take care of. We finally got it taken care of, but he is delayed in speech because he couldn't touch the top of his mouth. So, whenever I saw that we were going to have this podcast interview, I was just so excited because this is a huge issue. As a parent of three, this is a huge issue because you just don't know. And even when I didn't have kids, the knowledge that I had of even being a parent, yeah, I didn't know anything [laughs], and it's just learning on the go. So, everything you're doing is just speaking to me, and you are helping people. It's needed out there. So, I am so excited that you're doing it. HANS: That warms my heart. Thank you, Will, for saying that because I didn't realize that you're actually from North Carolina. I'm from North Carolina myself from a little town called Gastonia. But when it comes to, you know, developmental health, it is the biggest gray area in all of pediatrics. And we know that pediatricians just don't have the time. That's a very big burden. In addition, when it comes to specialists, we're talking about, you know, autism, for instance. You know, they have to be diagnosed through developmental-behavioral pediatricians or a child psychologist, and there's just a very big dearth of them. There's long waiting lines. It could be 12 to 18 months to actually get in front of them and get that evaluation, and then another 6 to 9 months to actually get therapy. And by that time, there's a lot of time lost, which is absolutely precious when it comes to the child. 90% of your child's brain, actually, develops by the time they're three years old. Another stat that parents actually don't know is that there's centers called Early Intervention Service Centers across the U.S. There's over 4,000. Their specific remit, their mandate is actually to go out and find children in their community, in the region, that do have developmental delay. And, you know, it's a very labor-intensive process to do that. I've actually done it here with my fourth child here in San Diego. They send out two therapists. They come in, do an evaluation, talk to the parent, see how they're doing, jot down some notes, you know, it's at least an hour of their time, driving included, but it's a very kind of manually intensive process. And what we can do is really be able to preempt that and really give parents the fidelity and advocacy to speak on behalf of their child. And I would say that's the number one thing that our parents say is they thought there was a concern. They knew there was some kind of gray area. And we know that there's a lot of stigma and denial around delays. What we're trying to do is actually lower that barrier so they have the wherewithal to actually have that conversation with their pediatrician. And simply to ask that question from a clinical-based evidence perspective, you know, that could do wonders, you know. If a kid's not speaking by the time they're two years old, if they're not saying a word, that's a big red flag. And a lot of the de facto status quo, a pediatrician will say, "Well, let's just wait till the next visit because every single child develops uniquely," which they do. But their next visit is at three years old, 12 months later. And that's time that's lost in that process. Apart from the evaluation, they can actually do at-home interventions. There are a lot of different activities and modules that we have for parents to actually be more proactive in enhancing that child's development along the way. And so, yeah, at the end of the day, we're committed to making sure parents have those tools and knowledge that's necessary. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: As a head of product, how do you approach the design for the app you're building given just how complex it is? And you said there's 400 milestones in the first 5 years to track. How do you prioritize which one to do first? [chuckles] HANS: Yeah, that's a good question. And now I get into the nitty-gritty. But there's certainly been a lot of focus, and it really starts with the users, and so that's both parents as well as pediatricians. And so, personally, I've visited, even in six months, I've visited over 70 different pediatric clinics here in Southern California as well as New York and Washington State, you know, really talking to pediatricians and really understanding what would actually help, you know, make it a lot more useful and helpful for them in their own day to day. You know, the biggest capacity constraint is really their time crunch. And so, can you get me those answers immediately? And they tell us they don't want to go to some other system. So, we've integrated directly into almost a hundred different EHRs (Electronic Health Records) across the board to the point where parents can actually just search for their pediatrician on our app and then be able to send their data directly to the pediatrician. Because when it comes down to trust, in healthcare, it's all about trust. Parents really trust the pediatrician the most at the end of the day, and so getting them on board and making sure that they're the biggest advocates for our platform will speak a lot more than just having our app in the App Store, which it is. But in terms of the parent's side, we want them to have a really great and engaging experience where they're getting a lot of joy. We could talk about this concept called burst of joy from watching their child grow and develop. And so, there's a fine line between creating too much anxiety versus giving more information. And when it comes to development [chuckles], there's a very fine line on that. But being able to kind of track those milestones on a continuous basis, not just that point in time, you know, that one time, you know, every three, six months that they're in the doctor's office, but even on a weekly basis, kind of seeing that growth that actually happens organically on a day-to-day basis is a huge part of the parent experience. Being able to kind of look and see what that is, why it's important, and oh, by the way, if the child's not doing that, here's some activities that you can do to really help them excel and get to the next level, you know, that's the type of thought process. And if you do have concerns, here's resources. We put together these 4,000 early intervention centers, where on the web, you have to go to each individual website. We basically just took all the information and just put it right there in one place where it's just a zip code lookup functionality. And so, a lot of those types of approaches is really great. I think, in the future, being able to connect directly with therapists and providers might be another step because we know that the gaps in care is really one of the most critical problem. Right now, we're trying to solve that through that parent-led approach. But even reducing that 6 to 9 months down to 1 or 2 weeks, I think, that's actually a possibility. VICTORIA: I love how you described it as what you're going for is a burst of joy and that you want to focus on having it be a joyful experience for parents. And it should be because I have also seen the anxiety part and how anxiety-inducing it can be when you're trying to keep track of all these different milestones. And, like you said, you have a handout from your doctor, or maybe you're looking up things on TikTok or Instagram [laughs]. How do you work those emotions into your design? Can you say a little bit more about that? HANS: Yeah. So, for example, after completing an activity...so, we have all these daily activities that you can do. We start the app. We've got inspired from Headspace in terms of what they ask you to do. Here's 2 or 3 things that you can do with your child. We start with an activity, and it takes nothing more than items lying around in your home. We believe in this concept of serve and return approach when it comes to that parent-child interaction. And so, you have those materials. You have the 10, 15 minutes that you have with your child. You're asking yourself, like, "What can I actually do to really stimulate development?" We want to meet them where they are. So, we have even at bath time, or on the playground, or in a car ride, or while you're doing laundry, sorting socks, right? Any place in time could actually have that really great approach. And then, after completion of the activity, we have this kind of pop-up that it's almost like an accomplishment, like, we did it as a joint team, as a joint effort, with a little celebration and kind of that approach. And then, also, when you're checking off milestones, and when you check off frequently on our app, there's little hearts that kind of come out of the button to celebrate this little...we call them smilestones, but it's a small part of that celebration that happens day in, day out. VICTORIA: I'm definitely going to say smilestones to my team next week. That's how we're going to rebrand our milestones as as well. I love it. HANS: Yeah. I don't think that's copyrighted, so go ahead. Take it away. WILL: What is your, I'll use that, smilestone for the next six months or, you know, next year? What's in the future? I saw on your website you're incorporating some AI into it. So, can you talk about that and anything else that you have coming up? HANS: Yeah. So, one of the places where we're really, you know, focusing on is really getting objective about the data. So, we want to take a lot of the subjectivity, a lot of the guesswork, a lot of the recall bias, even misinterpretation of milestones, as well as language barriers of milestones. And so, just really being able to not just have the parent kind of fill out, you know, the checklist, but also, being able to incorporate the videos component as well. And so, being able to upload any kind of video of the child at the dinner table, playing with friends in the playground, playing at home in the living room. Parents have tons of these videos, right? We're able to kind of spot and detect where those milestones are actually taking place. And so, we can isolate that three to five seconds of, here's where their child's doing the pincer grip, which is basically picking up a cheerio between your forefinger and thumb, and really being able to kind of give that validation and confirmation to the parents so they can actually say, "Oh, wow, my child actually did this new thing that I actually didn't even know about." But on top of that, being able to turn that into a highlight reel, you know, similar to like SportsCenter highlight reel. Like, you're taking all of those different clips and turn that into maybe a 60-second highlight reel of everything that happened that transpired in between the last visit. So, when you talk about going from, like, a 12-month visit to an 18-month visit, here's all the things, in 60 seconds, that the kid's been doing to give a lot more comprehensive evaluation for their pediatrician to make better decisions at the end of the day. Again, we are clinical decision support. We're not making the diagnosis ourselves. We leave that to the providers. But what we believe in our ethos is really giving all that information and packaging it up so that those decisions can be much better made at the end of the day. So, that's one use case of AI. But there's still a human element to it right now, but we want to be able to kind of transpire that to a fully autonomous computer vision, which, when you look at generative AI, understanding videos and being able to detect that when you think about all of the different angles, shapes, lighting, et cetera, it's the, I would say, the last frontier of being able to kind of get data insights out of videos itself. It's very easy to go from having a text prompt and generating a video from it. It's much harder to take a video and spitting back out what we have as milestones. So, that's one part. And the other is developmental biomarkers which is another...what we think is groundbreaking in the pediatric space. VICTORIA: Can you explain what developmental biomarker is? HANS: Yeah. So, it's a concept similar to what we know as the height and weight chart. And when I first became a parent, a lot of times you're speaking with other new parents, and you are, you know, on the playground, right? And they're saying that "Hey, my kid is on the 90th percentile in height or weight," or "Hey, they're 80th percentile on head circumference," because that's literally, like, as a new parent, like, that's the only basis you have other than their sleep habits, which, Will, I know you can probably attest to most parents track a lot. But similar to that, like, in terms of, you know, how developmental tracking is done right now, the status quo is using developmental screeners. And so, that's, again, point in time, static approach while you're in the well-child visit. But the problem with developmental screeners is it has what's called a low sensitivity and specificity in terms of really over-detecting or over-failing basically one side of the distribution. So, it's typically 40% to 50% of kids would fail a screener when, in reality it should be around 20 to 25. To really get more granular and very objective about understanding a child's developmental trend, one has to kind of be able to, we believe, understand both the right and the left side of the distribution and being able to understand, hey, is this child actually tracking ahead of the curve or behind the curve relative to everyone else? And so, we've developed an algorithm. It's fairly complex, but it uses a lot of the underlying data sets that we have to kind of give a much more high-fidelity picture of, hey, your child's in the 60th to 65th percentile. At the end of the day, we want to be able to identify delays. And so, anything below 20% or so, you know, parents should be more informed about that and looking at it on a domain-by-domain specific level. So, it's very common for a kid to be accelerated on 3 of the four domains, but maybe they're behind on speech. And so, what does the doctor do with that? If they're at 15th percentile in speech, they can then come in the clinic and say, "Hey, I see the screening results, but I also see this Pathfinder report. Let's spend the next 5 to 10 minutes actually seeing how you verbalize and how you're able to speak and express yourself." So, that's really what we're talking about when it comes to developmental biomarkers. VICTORIA: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I think I knew what you were referring to, but I wanted to make sure [laughs], but that makes sense. So, it's like whatever the data that helps the parent identify where there might be an area that some intervention or some more time might need to be taken to help move them forward. HANS: It is on a longitudinal basis, which, if you're in healthcare, you know longitudinal trend. Really understanding what that looks like is hugely important versus point in time. And so, we're able to see it not just at the sixth month and nine month, but every day in between as well. And we believe, you know, the early results are kind of showing that we're able to even preempt what those potential red flags will look like, or a failed screening result will look like at an earlier rate as well. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious if you have other statistics like that or some results from the first year, almost two years of data that you have now, on how people are interacting with the app. And what kind of outcomes are you getting? HANS: Yeah, as I said, you know, the biggest outcome is really being able to give parents a really highly objective look at how their children are developing, and so giving them the level of advocacy to speak on the child's behalf with clinical evidence. If you look at our testimonials, that's probably the number one thing. We have different personas for different types of moms. But there's some moms that are the Nervous Nellies, the ones that are concerned about every single cut, scrape, and bruise. There's also the Inkling Ingrids, the ones that think there might be something there, but they're not necessarily sure. But then there's also the Ambitious Amandas, these types of moms that want to put their kids in every single type of advanced activity, right? Music classes, Legos, et cetera. And then, the Brand New Brendas, the ones that are brand new to parenting and want to know, learn, explore, and track the child's development. So yeah, there's different things for different types of personas that we have. By and large, it's really giving that information in a very parent-friendly way so it's not overwhelming them with too much anxiety or, you know, going over their heads as a lot of times medical jargon does as well. VICTORIA: Wow. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. And I wonder, actually, Hans, I wanted to ask you a question about bias and about bias in AI and in health tech. And how do you approach that in Pathfinder and making sure that everyone's getting equitable health incomes and recommendations within the app? HANS: Yeah, bias and accessibility are two big topics that we think a lot about, you know, first of all, on the underlying data bias, you know, that could present itself. Right now, our app is available on App Store and Play Store. We have over 50,000 parents, you know, still small but growing in about 120 different countries, mainly English-speaking ones, because right now the app is completely in English. That's about to change. We're about to go multilingual, starting with Spanish, which is definitely the biggest request. But so, when it comes to, like, being able to compare across different groups and subsets, you know, we do believe we have a fairly heterogeneous group. Only about 50% of our users are actually here in the U.S. In terms of the actual milestones themselves, there could be, you know, some differences in cultures. Something like "Eats with a fork" is a milestone that happens, I think, around two or three years old. You know, in cultures like India, for instance, they usually eat with their hands for a lot of time. So, that would be obviously a difference. That milestone wouldn't necessarily apply as much. But then when you talk about accessibility, one of the things that we screen for in our standard screening that we do have, and I forgot to mention this earlier up front, we almost have, like, a four-legged stool, if you will, in terms of the underlying data that we capture. One is standard screeners because that is status quo. That is reimbursed on the pediatrician's side. And the biggest value prop to pediatricians to adopt our platform is, hey, we can help you get towards 100% developmental screen adherence, which right now it's only about 60 or even less than 50% across the board. So, that's a reimbursable event. So, that's layer 1. Layer 2 is parent concerns, caption that in a good, valid way, and then continuous milestone tracking. And then, finally, the videos as well. So, certainly, some parents don't submit videos for privacy reasons, which is okay. We still have all of the other 3. So, going back to social determinants of health and health equity, that's one of the things that we screen for as well, knowing that the more vulnerable populations and minorities, lower socioeconomic classes, actually do have a higher prevalence of delays. And so, we want to be able to be accessible to them as much as we can but also, raise those things to the surface when it comes to getting those answers to pediatricians. There's another big movement happening called Adverse Childhood Experiences screeners (ACEs) that really looks at, you know, how the child's been developing and what their background, their environment actually looks like. So, looking at those questions of, is that child being raised in an environment of neglect, or abuse, or a broken home, or drug addictions in the home? Those can really have an effect, not just on the early part of life, but even later in life when you talk about physical as well as mental well-being. And so, just having that awareness and that insight into how that child's been developing is really important on the background side. And so, at the end of the day, when we're talking about who actually holds the bag, if you will, in terms of this big gap that we're trying to solve, at the end of the day, it's really the government. If the child does have a delay that doesn't get addressed at an early age, doesn't get, you know, therapy, a lot of times, it leads on to run-on consequences, whether that's mental issues or maybe not being able to be self-sufficient, independent, job seeking, tax-paying, delinquencies. There's a lot of different ramifications from things that happen at a very early age. That's where we believe in partnership with Medicaid through clinics like Federal Qualified Health Centers that focus on the Medicaid population, which 38% of all kids fall under, those are ideal partners for us. It's a longer, harder slog and a long road. But we believe there's a lot that we can offer at that level as well as more ACO and value-based payer type of model. VICTORIA: Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Hans, for coming on and sharing your story with us. Do you have anything that you would like to promote? HANS: I know we didn't get a chance to speak about it, but the children's book I've written very near and dear to my heart is called Baby Aviva, Orangutan Diva. You can get that out on Amazon, anywhere. But it's A-V-I-V-A. If you're a parent and if you have a kid under the age of five, feel free to check out our app called Pathfinder Health. And Pathfinder is just one word on the App Store and Play Store. But thank you, Will, and thank you, Victoria. WILL: Thank you. It was great talking to you. And I'm going to go download the app. HANS: Absolutely. Thanks so much. And I really appreciate it. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on X or Twitter [laughs] @victori_ousg or on Mastodon @thoughtbotsocial@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.  AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Hosts Victoria Guido and Will Larry are joined by Trent Walton, CEO of Luro. Trent shares his journey into the design world, from his early fascination with typography and logos to co-founding Paravel. This agency later evolved into creating Luro, a no-code solution for building design systems and tracking their adoption across products. Trent emphasizes the importance of understanding the materials one works with in design and development and stresses the need for a holistic approach to product building. This approach blurs the lines between disciplines, encouraging a generalist mindset over specialization. Luro, as a product, stemmed from the realization that existing design systems often fell short in adoption and application, leading to a search for a more integrated and comprehensive solution. Trent outlines the functionality and vision behind Luro, explaining how it serves not just designers and developers but entire organizations by fostering better collaboration, documentation, and understanding of design decisions. Luro aims to streamline the creation and maintenance of design systems, making them more accessible and manageable, even for teams facing resource constraints. By incorporating performance, accessibility metrics, and the ability to track component adoption and integration, Luro provides a platform for continuous improvement and alignment with organizational goals. Luro (https://luroapp.com/) Follow Luro on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/luroapp/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsS9BEmX1NPBXkbaLGcMZlw), Discord (https://discord.com/invite/aNEdjnR6A5), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/luroapp/). Follow Trent Walton on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/trent-walton/). Visit his website at trentwalton.com (https://trentwalton.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with me today is Trent Walton, CEO of Luro. Luro is a no-code solution to build your design system and track adoption across your entire product. Trent, thank you for joining me. TRENT: Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. WILL: Yeah, I can't wait to dive into Luro and get to know more about the product. But before we go into that, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know you're based out of Texas. TRENT: Yeah, I grew up, lived here my whole life. I'm in Austin with the other co-founders, Dave and Reagan. Been a designer probably all my life, always been interested in, like, typography and fonts. When I was little, I used to buy badges for cars from swap meets and take them home, not because I needed, like, I had a car I was building and had any interest in, like, sandblasting or building an engine. I just liked the typography, and the design of the icons, and the logos, and all that kind of thing. And so, now it's evolved into me just being, like, a type aficionado and a graphic design aficionado, and then that evolved into, especially when I discovered the web in the early 2000s, building and designing websites with Dave and Reagan, who I mentioned. And so, we had an agency called Paravel early on and had a lot of time putting into practice kind of that design and development and building for the web. VICTORIA: So, your first interest in design came from, is it a car engine? Is that what I heard? TRENT: Well, yeah, my father is a mechanical engineer, and so is my brother. And they work on cars, have classic, like, old Mustangs and Cobras and things that they build in their spare time. And I have no interest in that kind of work [laughs] but grew up in that environment. And, you know, pre-internet growing up in the '80s, one of the things that really got me was the aesthetic and the design around those kinds of muscle cars, so, like, old Shelby or Cobra or Mustang Ford ads, just, I really got into that. So, I'd buy, like, car manuals for a few bucks, or if there's a Mustang Cobra and there's a cool, like, chrome snake logo with a condensed uppercase typeface or some sort of lettering that says, you know, "Shelby Cobra." And that's when I realized [laughs] where my interests lie. You know, engines are cool. They sound cool. Fast cars are cool. But I was just totally, you know, enamored with the typography and the design aspect that surrounded those things, and then it just kind of evolved from there. Anything else I could get my hooks into, I picked up on. VICTORIA: I love that because when I talk to people about design, for folks who don't have a background in it, they kind of think, oh, design, that's logos. You know, I'm redesigning my house right now. My husband is like, "Oh, it's picking the tiles and the colors. We can do that." And I'm like, "No, like, design, there's a lot more to it. Design is everywhere." Like, you can find design inspiration from car manuals [laughs], it's so funny that you bought those, or from random logo design and actually, like, really good design. If it's something that's designed well, you probably don't even notice it. You just flow and use the space or use the app as you're intended to. TRENT: Yeah. And I also think that getting inspiration or starting ideas out from anywhere but the medium you're working in might be a nice little trick to bring some, like, naïve, fresh perspective to things. So, I try to go back to that stuff as much as possible. I have heaps of manuals I've bought off of eBay in recent years, yeah, things you wouldn't think you'd find on, like, you know, whatever, a graphic designer's bookcase, just anything to sort of break the monotony or break my own little lenses of what a website should look like, or what a logo or a brand should look like, how to step outside of that a little bit. But it's funny because it really does go back to that initial sense of wonder I experienced at those really just, you know, we're talking, like, in a gross, swampy field in Texas with, like, funnel cakes being served at every corner, like, not the most slick, rad graphic designy vibe, but that's where it all started for me. So, I go back there as often as I can [laughs]. VICTORIA: So, how do you talk to founders or people who are thinking about building products? How do you talk to them about design and give them a where to get started approach? TRENT: I don't know that I ever specifically talk about design or even maybe, like, engineering or about performance. I talk about all those things, accessibility, et cetera. I try to blur those lines as much as possible. It's maybe an idyllic thing that I've had for years. But going back to the agency days, I'll call them the agency days, but up until, like, you know, 2015, '16, Dave, Reagan, and I ran an agency called Paravel. And by nature, the three of us are some sort of a hybrid between a designer, maybe, like, a front-end developer. You know, Dave's more of an engineer now. But we've all been very careful to make sure that we're generalists, which I don't know that that, like, career-wise that, might pay off long term, but I cannot work on the web any other way or talk about the web any other way. I've always felt like, I mean, there was the old, which we don't have to get into, gosh, but the debate on should designers code? But I think the essence of that is really, like, should we be familiar with the materials we're working on? So, anytime I start to talk about designing for the web or designing a product, you want to make sure everyone has a clear understanding of the environment that they're working with. So, is it, you know, a website? And is performance important? And is our site that we're redesigning is it performant now? Is it fast or slow? Or am I a designer who only cares, and this is a thing that I have to fight inside of myself all the time? So, I'm not trash-talking anybody, but, like, do I want to load a bunch of fonts and cool images, and is that my KPI is how interesting and engaging the visuals are? Which is a great one to have, but it also, you know, while you're talking about design, you have to consider all of these other things that can define quality for an experience. Maybe those other things don't matter as much from one person to the next. But the more they are in front of me, the more they evolve the way I perceive what I work on. And so, I try to never really isolate any kind of aspect into maybe, like, a stage or a sprint that we're doing as a team. It's just sort of this holistic kind of hippie vibey way to look at sites, but I want to make sure that it's always, like, we're always starting from a very, very broad place that involves every aspect, and all team members and stuff like that. VICTORIA: Well, I love that because I try to think about that in the same way from the other end, like, on the operations perspective when you're talking about site performance. And, you know, like, is the site responding fast enough? And it comes back to the question of, like, well, what is the experience, expectations of the user? And what's important to get done on the site? [laughs] And having those conversations, like, early on and integrating all these different teams from the design and development and operation side to have that conversation so everyone knows what is the goal of the site and what is the important aspects of the user experience that the system needs to be able to support? So, I also like that you said that it's like, well, should you be familiar with the materials that you're using? [laughs] Thought that that was really cool. Like, I'm actually...my husband and I are renovating our home. And I'm talking about why we should invest in design [laughs], and part of it's because there's things to know about the materials. Like, if you're choosing a floor for your house, like, the designers will know, like, what's the durable ones? What's the ones that are going to fit your need, and your cost, and your budget? And so, like, they don't necessarily need to be a person who's going to lay the floors [laughs], but they need to know what to expect out of what you decide to use. TRENT: Yeah, it's, like, all of these constraints. And so, being familiar with the real-world implications of the decisions we make, you know, inform that. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty similar, too. It's like, well, you need this floor because it's more durable in this climate or whatever, same thing for, you know, the websites that we build. It's all contingent upon the outcomes that, hopefully, we can mutually agree on. You know, there's kind of a general sense of, like, performance is important, and accessibility is paramount and extremely important. But then there's some nuance to that as you get into some smaller decisions. So, having these kinds of discussions early on and frequently and almost...the way I like to think about it is rather than, like, a check-in where we say, "Okay, this is it," but having a place where we can all look to check in and find information and share information that's maybe not so fast. One thing I like to think about is things get lost in chats and maybe even tickets, so as you're closing tickets and opening tickets. There's a bug. I solved it. It's gone. Can you send me this logo? Can we tweak this? These micro changes they open and close very, very quickly. And so, there's this firehose that happens. And so, I find that having a place separate from that for discussing these things and remembering these things, and referencing these things while we are in our code editors or inside of our Figma or any kind of design tool that we use to sort of cross-reference and simmer on things as we think about the decisions that we have to make, as opposed to just knocking them out super quick, always being mindful of those constraints. And again, yeah, the [chuckles] materials we're working with, whether it's just, you know, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript or whatever, but all of those things. It's good to be mindful of that. WILL: I know you said that you've been in design for a while, and so I love just picking the brain of someone who's been into it a while and see how far we've come from, especially just the 2000s. So, in your opinion, with design, how do you feel about where we've come since the beginning of tech to where we're at now and, also, I guess, where we're going with the design? TRENT: Yeah. So, I guess I can really just frame...this is going to help me remember just framing [laughs] where we were. I started off on Homestead, which is sort of like GeoCities. I was in college. I graduated, and I think it was 2001, maybe 2000, anyways. And it was mainly just taking images...I didn't even have Photoshop at this point. And you realize you could, like, tile a background for a build your own website. Homestead was one of those kinds of deals. And I thought that was very interesting. So, I had this cheap digital camera. It took a lot of cords to figure out how to, like, port that onto this old, crappy Hewlett Packard computer that was, like, a hand-me-down. Fast forward a couple of years, I had graduated, did not study design, so I'm all kind of self-taught or just taught by the web, the peers, the information that has been shared and been influenced by. But Dreamweaver was out, and Macromedia was huge, and I loved Fireworks. And so, Dave Rupert, I paid him $80 to teach me HTML [laughs], and so we've been together ever since. This is right out of college. And so, the tools that we used there were pretty rudimentary, but Fireworks was rad. Like, it was kind of web-based. It felt like it made more sense. I love Photoshop, and that's kind of, like, a primary graphic design tool that I still use to this day. But early on, it just felt like everything was so harshly limited. So, if you had any kind of idea that you wanted to execute that you could just draw on a piece of paper, mock it up in Photoshop, the amount of work that you had to do to get that to happen was either extremely high, or it was just impossible. And then, if it was impossible, I bet you can guess what we did. We went to Flash, and we made, like, a crappy video of a web page that was not accessible and really hard to use. I was heavy into Flash for, like, two or three years until kind of, as I had been warned by Dave that, you know, HTML and CSS are going to be the way the web works. But when I came back to that, there was this wonderful time where it felt like we were charting out every single...it was just new territory. It's like we had come to this other planet or this other world, and everything that needed to be done, we had to figure out how, like, getting web fonts onto pages, rounding borders. I mean, getting that done aside from slicing images in Fireworks felt like this new monumental discovery that changed the lives of many. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but in my world, it felt like that. And so, early on, you can look back on it and go, gosh, everything was a pain in the ass, like, living with all of these limitations. But for me, I do look back at it like that, but I also look back on it as this wonderful time where we were building the web that we're working on now. So, all these things that make designing easier and quicker come with some sort of a, you know, an evolution of your perception, and [inaudible 13:14] fond memories of work along the way. For me, it's sort of I've just always sort of been around working on the web and watching design evolve, and every little step maybe feels like a tiny one or a large one. But these days, it just seems like, oh, this is exactly how it should have [laughs] always been, like, convenient grids and convenient box shadow and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, it's been nice to sort of grow up only being a web designer. Like, I mean, I've done graphic design. I've done brochures and, print design, and logo design for sure. But, I have always been anchored to and centered around web design and thinking about things in the context of how they will be applied to the web first and foremost. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: So, what was the turning point for you that led you to found Luro? How did it all get started? TRENT: With Paravel, the agency days, we had a lot of fun. I think, for us, our big agency spike was when responsive web design came out. Ethan coined the term. There was a lot of people on the web, you know, a lot of agencies or a lot of teams, a lot of companies that needed to pivot into that. And so, we found this great working relationship with companies where we would come in and sort of had a little bit more practice just because we got in early learning kind of how to do that well, I think. And it was a sort of we're going to redesign a page, a homepage perhaps, or, like, a marketing page. You'll do that project; three to six months go by. And then the next thing turns into, well, we have this giant network of e-commerce stores. We have this giant network of pages with, like, download centers and support documents. And now, we need to make everything responsive, and it can be anything. We need to make everything accessible. We need to make everything performant. We need to update the brand on everything. And I don't think we're alone in this. I think this is the beginning of the greater design system discussion as it applies to the web. Obviously, design systems predate the web; design systems pre-date, like, 2012 or '13 or whenever we got into it. But projects started to migrate from, "Hey, can you design this really amazing, responsive marketing page," to "We have a system, and we need you to solve these problems." We love working on those problems. I still do to this day. But the reason why we switched from kind of being a, you know, individual contributor-type agency consultant type roles to building a SaaS product was because we were realizing that things got complicated...is a very, like, boring way to say it. But to get a little deeper, it was, we would see things not ship. So, like, our morale went down. The teams that we were working with morale kind of went down. And as I was digging into why things weren't shipping...and when I mean ship, I think, like, pages would ship, of course. Like, here's a page. It just needs to be built, somebody decided, or a new feature needs to be built. Of course, those went out. But the idea of, is our design system or the system that we're designing launched? Is it applied? Is it fully adopted? Is it partially adopted? It never felt like the amount of traction that we were promising or that we were being asked for. And I don't mean we, as in just the three of us, but the entire team or the entire organization who, in many cases, all were bought into the idea of design systems. So, what we found was, when things got real, and we had to give up things, and we had to work on things and prioritize things, it became much more difficult to work in that capacity, probably partially because of the cross-discipline nature of those things. So, as opposed to what I consider maybe a miserable way to work in many cases, is the classic; here's my Photoshop comp. And I have a red line document JPEG that I will give you, whatever engineer I'm working with, or it's myself, and I'm just giving myself a red line document, but you're just going through and trying to make those things match. And that is sort of not fun for the team because now we're just sort of chiseling each other and sort of, like, going through and critiquing our work over and over versus really kind of in the spirit of prototyping and inventing together. I find that products are diminished when you do that. So, as you try to get into this design system part, it requires a lot more insight into what everyone around us is doing, kind of, as I was saying at the beginning, how to have this cross-discipline view of what we are actually working on. And that view is what we thought, and we still believe in many cases, is absolutely missing. So, you can spin up a design system. And Luro is not the only design system tool. Of course, you can spin up your own. And what I mean by that is, like...I'm maybe going to answer, like, three questions in one. Maybe you haven't even asked them yet. But just to kind of frame this, if you ask anyone what a design system is, it might be a different answer. It might be these are my Figma components that I've created and I've shared out, and there's a public link. You know, an engineer might say, "Well, it's the GitHub repo of components that I'm actually using." So, the design is helpful as documentation. But the design system is the code, or the design system is the actual...or the actual components that are live that users see, which I would argue probably is the most accurate, just because we're talking about user experience impacting whatever business objectives we may have. So, those components need to make their way into live sites or products. So, finding out what that answer is, what's the source of truth? What is our design system? What are our components? What are our standards? You have to have multiple sources for that, just because there's multiple people with multiple opinions and multiple measures of success involved in those. And all of those opinions and measures of success, I would say, are valid. So, accounting for those and kind of crossing the streams, if you will, in one sort of central UI, we believed was crucial enough that we should jump out of the agency days and into a product-building scenario. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, you saw this pattern in the delivery of your work as an agency that made you want to build a solution to create better outcomes for a potentially exponential number of clients, right? [chuckles] TRENT: Yeah, hopefully. I think that working on how you work together as a team is vitally important, and if you can find the right environment, then the actual product will benefit. I mean, and I'm not even just thinking about these maybe soft things like, oh yeah, if engineers and designers can work together, the typography will be a little bit better, and the site will feel a little bit more cohesive, and it'll be maybe a little bit easier to digest. I believe that. But I also believe that there are people in organizations doing research, financial analysis, customer analysis, A/B testing, you know, all sorts of work that contributes to the decisions that we make about our sites and products that sort of just gets lost in the shuffle, in the firehose of the day to day. So, having something that takes not only a, I guess, what you could classify as the what for a design system, it could be the design of a component. Maybe it's actually even, too, as well, the code that makes up that component. But then there's this giant why. Why does the button look the way that it does? Why does a card have a border around it? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? These things maybe they come up during meetings. Maybe there's something that, as a designer or an engineer, I found maybe on the company's shared OneDrive or somebody mentioned in passing. Those things are vitally important, and they need to be, again, back to the morale and perception evolving; they need to be accessible to everyone. But it's a needle-in-a haystack situation. It's funny. We would consult. And one of my favorite stories is we were building this prototype. We were hired to build a prototype for a startup in Austin. They were on a big, open floor-plan office with the glass meeting rooms. And we were showing off our prototype, and we just felt really clever and witty about the way we were going to solve this and the pages that we were going to build. And who is a friend now, a person named Angela walks by, and she's like, "What are you working on?" And we told her what it was. And she says, "Oh, wow, you know, six months before you started contracting with the startup, we did this all, and we've user-tested it. Everybody's been reorged, and nobody remembers. But I have this PowerPoint I can send you, and it will show you the results. Some of these things you're doing are probably going to be great. The other things you should absolutely not be repeating these mistakes." And I thought about how likely it was that she walked by and happened to see that through the window and happened to look on the sharp television on the wall. And it's probably not very likely, and as we become, you know, we're remote and working remote the likelihood of those things happening maybe goes down. The idea of building a product that increases the likelihood or almost makes it seamless that you can find information relevant to what you were working on, even if you're new to that project or you haven't worked on it for a long time, is very, very key. So, within Luro, you can build a design system. You can add your styles. You can add your components, configure your tokens, and do all that, but you can also integrate those things that I was mentioning: prototyping, research, and testing. We also do an accessibility and performance through Lighthouse and give you metrics there. All of those things are associated to the pages that your site is comprised of. They're associated to the components that you use to build everything. So, we're sort of crossing the streams here. So, if you're going into imagine a button component and you're like, okay, the border-radius is four pixels. The type size is 16 pixels, and here's how you code it. We're putting in an actual button. The class is dot btn. That's all great. It's helping us build the button. But if you are asked by leadership or anyone, "Why did you decide this?" Or "What is the impact of design?" Or "What is the impact of the product team on our bottom line? How are you moving the needle? How are you helping us as an organization achieve?" The answer isn't, "Well, we made the border four pixels just like the design [chuckles] said." That's great. Good job. But I think having all of this information associated with design and associated with engineering not only makes us more informed as contributors to teams but it helps us to articulate the value of what we do on the daily in a much more broad organizational sense. So, you can say, "Well, we user-tested this, and we realized that if we took out these form elements from a signup flow, we get more signups by having fewer steps. And so we removed a step. We user-tested it before and after, and signups went up 30%." That's a much cooler answer than, "Well, our design system helps us be consistent," even though we know that that is vitally important, and it makes our app or our site feel much more cohesive, and it contributes to that sign up metric or a sales metric just as much. But having this data and associating it with a component so it's not something that you have to sort of...I guess it almost sounds subjective if you bring it up and say, "Well, we're moving faster, and we're selling more stuff." That's not great. But if you can link and say, "Well, here's a PowerPoint before," or "Here's a summary of a user test before and after. Here's real numbers," it helps you to portray yourself as the designer or engineer or product team member who thinks very deeply about these things, and it helps you to accurately portray yourself in that way. So, I went on a real tangent, but actually just there, I think I just was describing sort of the nuts and bolts of why we built Luro to not only be a design system tool but, like, what we kind of also call a product development tool, a product development system. So, it's extending the idea of design systems to the practice of building a product with an entire organization. WILL: That's really, really cool, and you did a great job explaining it. I'm excited to see it and see where it's going. I felt like a lot of what you were saying was the why you're doing stuff, why you chose, you know, X, Y, Z. Is that where the analytics and the tracking portion of Luro comes into play? TRENT: Yeah. I think that one thing we heard a lot from agencies or even just teams within an organization that are working on design systems is back to that articulating the value of maybe a design system or articulating the value of the work that we do as designers or product builders and similar to we've done a user test and these are the results, and sales or signups, or whatever the case may be, have improved. I think one of the key metrics for a design system is, is the component adopted? There are other ones, and people will mention those, things like, is it helping a team be quicker? So, if there's a design system team, and then there's multiple product teams within an organization, and they all want to work together, and they want to be able to take the components that they need and build their ideas quicker, prototype quicker, that's a great metric as well. But one that we find vitally important is, are the components live to users? And so, being able to track that has a lot of value. One, obviously, is that communicating that to the greater organization, saying, "You know, we've spun up a design system team. The card component is on 49% of pages. The button is on 100% of pages." And then if you're trying to be more tactical about how to improve the product or even just track down, you know, which components or which pages or which experiences aren't, I guess, consistent with the design system, you can say, well, "There's 49%, and there's 51% of pages that may or may not have the card component." And so, you can go find outdated components if you're trying to phase new ones in, and all of those sorts of things as well. So, the metrics are sort of great from a thematic sense, saying, this is the value that our design system is, you know, affording us as a business and the users are experiencing while they're using our app or our site. But then, also, you can drill down into these metrics and see, okay, the button is appearing here. I can click into pages and see views where it's being used on the page level and see, is it being used properly? Those kinds of things. You can track legacy components as well, so, for example, if we've rebranded the site that we all work on together and our old button was, like, dot button and the new button is dot BTN or however we would want to class those things. And you can use classes. You can use data attributes, all those kinds of things. But I would say we can track legacy along that. So, if your goal is to completely adopt the new design system across the entire network and products within six months or whatever the case may be, you know, month over month, week over week, you can check our, you know, line graphs and see, hopefully, the legacy occurrences of that going down over time. So, if, like, the button is being used less and less and then the dot BTN is being used more and more, you can see those sort of swap places. And so, what we have found is talking about things in sort of an objective or fuzzy way, saying, well, we're trying to ship this, and we're doing these inventories, and we're going through all the pages. And we're clicking around trying to find old things, or we're redesigning pages. But it's very, very difficult. This is just an instant quantification of where our components are manifesting in the product. So, what we do is, with Luro, you can give us...whether it's behind an authentication layer or not, we crawl web pages, first and foremost. So, you can give us a site. And this is all optional. You can spin out a design system without this. But we crawl the site, and then we will go ahead and do performance and accessibility scores for there. So, that's one way to itemize work, where you can just say, well, as an agency, we're going to work with this company, and we want to show them, like, the starting point and expose weak points on where we might be paying a lot of attention to. In the design or engineering phase, we need to improve the speed here. We have accessibility violations we need to think about, all that kind of stuff. And then, once you crawl those, you can add your design system, and then you can cross-reference those, and I kind of mentioned that. You can use CSS classes to do that. And so, you'd enter in dot BTN for button. We've already crawled your pages. And so, we can tell you every time that that class appears inside of any page inside of the network. So, it's this very, like, two-minute way to get a wealth of information that's shared and communicated with...the entire organization will benefit. Like I said, like, leadership they can get a sense of how the design system is being used and adopted, but also, the active teams working on things so that they can go find outliers and work on replacing those. VICTORIA: It's been over a year in your journey with Luro. What challenges do you see on the horizon? TRENT: I still think it is an adoption challenge. I think that, you know, one thing that we found is that a lot of teams, and this is going back to our agency days, but I sort of sort of still see this happening now is that building the design system, you know, let me separate these two things. I think designing components and building the design system in the sense of picking styles, and choosing fonts, and iterating upon something like a search box or, a footer, or a modal that's a lot of work. That's just design and product design and product development in general. But the act of, you know, creating the design system, maybe it's the documentation site, or however, we're communicating these standards across the organization. That part, to me, it's always kind of taken too much time and effort. And to be really candid, the amount of budget that's being allocated for those tasks is less. So, we're having a lot of users who are saying, "Well, I wasn't in charge of a design system. We had a team for that. We don't anymore. And now I'm responsible for it," or "The team's been combined, and I'm working on, like, three things at once." And so, something that's very, very crucial to us at Luro is to help with the struggle of spinning up a design system. For us, I fully believe that there are design systems that can be fully custom available to the public and need to have, you know, every page and view needs to be unique unto itself. But for Luro, the starting place that we get you with, you know, you can link in your Storybook. You can link in Figma components. You can add components manually and all those sorts of things. Where we can get you in a few minutes is really close. And then, if you started to fold in, you know, the idea of performance, accessibility, and then all of the other insights that you can then integrate, so if you're doing A/B testing or user testing and doing research, and you want to make sure that that's all involved inside of your design system, then it becomes a really attractive option. So, I think that decreasing the time it takes to get started and to spin up a design system is the number one thing we see people struggling with and the number one thing we want to bring. I kind of like to compare it to services like Netlify. Like, I remember I used to have to set up servers to demo things for clients, and it would take an hour, and I don't know what I'm doing. And I would break stuff, and they would have to help me fix it. So, then I'm bothering him. And then, now I'm just, you know, will either link to a CodePen or drag and drop a deployed URL from something like Netlify. And it's this amazing, almost like it feels like deploying is just as difficult as, like, sketching something out on a napkin. We want spinning up a design system to kind of feel that way so it's not so precious. You're not worried about...it is just easy to get started. And so, we're kind of integrating all these other tools that you use to make that easier and quicker because if you do have other things that you're working on and you need to move beyond that so that you can focus on prototyping, or designing, and building the actual components, you can do that. And you have that option as opposed to having to be mired in some of these other details. VICTORIA: It seems like change management and integrating change into larger organizations is always the biggest challenge [laughs], even for great innovations. And I'm curious: what types of people or groups have you found are quick to adopt this new method and really the right group for you to center your message on? TRENT: Yeah, it is...I was joking, I think, maybe before the podcast started, but it's, like, very ambitious because it's easy, I think, to say, "This tool is for designers. And if you're a designer, you can integrate your Figma, and then you'll have your components published to your team so that they can use them." And that's absolutely true. Like, if you're a designer, Luro is for you. If you're an engineer and you have just received components, and you need a way to document that and show your coded version alongside the design version and be able to collaborate with people in that sense, it is absolutely for you as well. So, you can see how it's almost like you almost have to frame Luro for individuals across the organization. So, it's one of those deals where...and we've kind of experimented with this with the marketing. And the way we've discussed it, we talked to lots of, you know, leadership, heads of product, CMOs, even CTOs, things like that. And so, it's like, if you're trying to get your entire organization to work better, to ship, you know, more effectively, then Luro is the tool for that as well because we're getting into knowledge retention via uploading. Like, my favorite story there is if you're an A/B tester, probably, and this is what we've experienced, is you run these tests. A lot of time and effort goes into building the prototypes for the test, whether that's you or an engineering team that's doing those things. This is one of the things we used to do as an agency. We would be brought on to prototype something totally new. We would test that alongside the existing experience. And an A/B tester, we'd work with them, and they would create, like, a PowerPoint or something that would explain the pros and cons and what should happen next and summarize the test. And that would live on that person's hard drive, whether it's on their computer or, like, a Dropbox or a OneDrive account. And no one ever thought about it ever again. You would just move on to the next test. But the amount of money spent on us to build the prototype and the amount of money spent on the SaaS to spin up the, like, A/B testing environment and all of these things, and then the time spent on the A/B tester to analyze the results and generate a PowerPoint it's not nothing. And so, one of the things that we find pretty appealing for leadership within Luro is the idea of integrating all of these tools and all this work that you do in mapping them to components so that when you pull up, for example, a button component, you'll see all the user tests that have been added over any period of time. So, if you were a new hire and you're trying to onboard, you can go interview everybody in the organization and ask them about the history of a button or a card component or the history of a sign-up page. But then, also, in a self-service way, you can just click into Luro, click a button, click a card, click to the sign-up page, any of those things, and find all that stuff I was mentioning earlier, whether it's a test, or research, or prototyping, or any kind of documents that have been written. These aren't the arguments that Dave or I might have around the actual border-radius value. Those are small things that probably should be lost in the firehose. But if we have learned an outline button with a stroke is performing way better than a solid-filled button or vice versa, that's important information that doesn't need to disappear in six weeks. So, that's the other kind of metric there is explaining kind of the holistic version, telling the holistic story of Luro to those types. And so, yeah, navigating that and trying to get, like, buy-in on a broad level is kind of what we're working on these days now. WILL: Sweet. So, I actually really like how it's almost like version control. You can see the history of what you've been working on. And I really like that because so many times...you're correct. When I go to Figma or anything, I'm like, why are we doing it this way? Oh, we made these decisions. Maybe in comments, you can kind of do it, but I think maybe that's the only place you can see the version control. So, I like that feature. Like you said, you can see the history of why you did something like that. TRENT: Yeah. And think about that, so if I am a front-end engineer and I receive a design and everyone thinks that, why are we doing it this way? I would hate to code something...I can do it. It's my job. But if I don't understand why, my feeling about work and maybe the quality of my work goes down, you know what I mean? I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, feeling like you understand, and you're lockstep with the entire team, and you understand what the goal is...what are we trying to do? What are we trying to achieve? Like, what have we reviewed that has made us believe this? And if you don't have that information, or if I don't have that information, like, there's some traction within the team, whether it's actual momentum forward and the amount of tickets that are being closed, or just the spirit of what we're doing, that the product is going to be diminished. These are all these little things that add up, up, up, up, up over time. So, being able to show this information to be able to access this information kind of passively. So, for example, if you got VS Code open and Luro open and you can see here's the user test from six weeks ago that shows us why we went with option B, you'll say, "Okay, cool. Even better." You know, you can review those things way before you get things handed to you. You know, it's much more kind of this utopian vision of an open, collaborative deal. And the way I would say that is it's, you know, we all kind of hand things off. So, of course, like, there's some version, even if it's like a micro waterfall that happens on a daily basis. We're all doing that. Like, somebody needs to be done with something to hand it off to something else, so we're not all up in each other's space all the time. But one thing that we like about Luro, whether we use Teams, or Slack, or whatever, it's not a real-time thing where I have to say, "Stop, look what I'm doing [laughs]. Come over here and look because I need you to know this." You can get notifications from Luro, but it's not something that is a context-switching demand type of a situation. So, the idea is if you're like, I'm wondering what's going on. I know this is coming up. I'd like to review. Or I could let you know and tell you, and just on your own time, you can go see this. So, separate from, like, the firehose of tickets and chats, you can see the actual product evolving and some of these, like, key milestone decisions on your own time and review them. And if they've happened before you even started on the project, then you can do that as well. WILL: I think that's probably where the breakdown between developers and designers that collab that's where it probably breaks down, whenever you're trying to get your tickets out as a developer. And then there's a change while you're working on it, and it's a complicated change, but you're still responsible for trying to get that ticket out in time. So, I think, like, what you're saying, you can get it beforehand. So, it sounds like, to me, Luro would be a huge help because you have to have developers and designers working together; if you don't, you're just in trouble in general. But anything that can help the relationship between the two I think, is amazing, and that's what I'm hearing whenever you're talking about Luro. It helps. It benefits that relationship. TRENT: Yeah, that even makes me think a little bit about the ongoing collaboration aspect. So, it's like, if something is shipped...or maybe let's go the agency scenario here. You've launched a site. You've launched a product. How do we know how it's performing? Of course, you'll have everybody...they're going to have analytics, and we'll be talking about that. And are signups up or down? But Luro will run tests. It'll continue to run component analytics. So, you can sense whether, like, somebody is changing a component. Or, you know, is the fully adopted design system not being utilized or being utilized less or more over time? But then, also, we're running, again, performance and accessibility metrics. So, we've seen it where we've shipped a product for a client. You know, we've had Luro running. We've sort of used that as our hub to collaborate over time. And then we'll notice that there's a giant performance spike and that, like, the page speed has gone way down. And we itemize issues and can point you to exactly the page that it's happening on and give you some insight into that. Of course, you could go through after you've worked with the client and run Lighthouse on every single page in your own time for fun, but that's not reality or fun. So, you'll get this information. And so, you almost...before we were telling people who were using Luro, we were kind of using it ourselves just to help ourselves do a better job. About a month into a project, we were able to email a customer, a former client, and say, "Hey, site's looking great. Amazing to see this. There's a 3-megabyte, 50-pixel avatar. Someone uploaded a giant image. It displays as 50 pixels. But somebody must have uploaded the full one to your homepage, and your page speed score tanked." They're like, "Oh, wow, they must [laughs] be monitoring us and checking in on us every day." We love them dearly, but we were not doing that. We were using Luro off to the side. So, there is this other aspect of just sort of monitoring and making sure things stay, you know, as they were or better once we ship things and move forward to the next. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And I'm excited to explore more on my own about Luro. As we're coming towards the end of our time today, I wanted to give you one last chance to shout out anything else that you would like to promote today. TRENT: Oh, that's it [laughs], luroapp.com, you know, that's the main thing. Check out component analytics. We have a YouTube channel, and I would say that's probably the easiest, a lot of effort, even though the videos maybe I'd give myself an A-minus or a solid A, not an A-plus on video production. I'm trying to get better. But explaining just, like, how to set things up. There's, like, a one-minute, like, what is all this? So, if you want to see all the things that I've been trying to describe, hopefully well on the podcast [chuckles], you can see that really well. So, I'd say Luro App and then the YouTube channel. We've got, like, five, six videos or so that really kind of help get you into maybe what your use case would be and to show you how easily things are set up. VICTORIA: Great. Thank you so much for joining us today, Trent, and for sharing about your story and about the product that you've been building. TRENT: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This has been great fun. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Hosts Will and Victoria sit down with Charlotte Holt, the Founder and Creator of The Fashion Library. Based in London, The Fashion Library is a contemporary wardrobe rental resource tailored for stylists. Charlotte opens up about her diverse background, spanning various countries, and shares the transformative journey that led her from being a stylist to establishing her own venture. Charlotte sheds light on the formidable challenges stylists encounter, from the environmental repercussions of fashion production to the financial constraints of traditional shopping methods. She articulates how The Fashion Library is poised to confront these obstacles head-on by offering a platform that enables stylists to rent clothing, fostering sustainability while saving valuable resources like time and money. Delving into the realm of technology, Charlotte underscores its pivotal role in streamlining operations and catalyzing a paradigm shift towards a more sustainable fashion industry. She outlines her ambitious vision for The Fashion Library's future, encompassing the archive, broadening the user base, and creating a robust marketplace and working platform. The Fashion Library (https://thefashionlibrary.co/) Follow The Fashion Library on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/thefashionlibrary/), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@thefashionlibrary.co), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/thefashionlibrary.co), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/thefashionlibrary.co). Follow Charlotte Holt on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlotte-holt-82343628/). Visit her website at charlotteholt.co.uk (http://charlotteholt.co.uk/) Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Charlotte Holt, Founder and Creator of The Fashion Library, London's newest contemporary wardrobe rental resource for stylists. Charlotte, thank you for joining me. CHARLOTTE: Thank you for having me. I never ever thought I would be talking on a podcast. VICTORIA: You never thought that? Why? What did you think would happen? [laughs] CHARLOTTE: As in, like, I never thought I would be on a podcast, me personally. So, like, this is a new experience for me. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Well, I know you're speaking with us today, and just to warm us up a little bit, I'm curious: what other languages could you be speaking to us in? What's your...I heard you learn multiple. CHARLOTTE: So, I actually went to school in the south of France when I was younger. And for the last couple of years, I've been living in Mexico, so I've been trying to learn Spanish. I am pretty proficient in French and getting there in Spanish. VICTORIA: Very cool. I live in San Diego, and I've also been learning Spanish for a long time and love to practice sometimes, so... What about you, Will? Do you speak any other languages? WILL: I used to speak Spanish, but it's so hard when you don't live in that culture to keep it up. Because I've been to, like, Peru a couple of times and some other South American places, but I always pick it up when I go back in there and kind of get the feel for it, but it's kind of hard. I need to pick it back up. But Spanish is the one that I feel the most comfortable in outside of English. VICTORIA: Right. We're a bilingual nation. And so, I love that opportunity to get to meet other people and speak in other languages and practice that. So, Charlotte, coming back to your journey, it sounds like you've lived in all these interesting places. Why don't you tell us just a little bit more about your background? CHARLOTTE: I am from Scotland originally. I know I don't sound like it. And then I went to school in the South of France for two years, like, to finish high school. Then I ended up back in the UK, living in London for 12, 14 years. And then, just as COVID was happening, I was actually supposed to kind of relocate or start working more in the U.S., and I actually ended up in Mexico [chuckles], of all places, and that's where I stayed for two years. I was living the good life. I had a pretty good COVID experience. I was at the beach every day surfing, so I can't complain about that. And then I've been living in the U.S. on the West Coast in Los Angeles before I decided to set up my new business, which has brought me back to London. VICTORIA: Wow, full circle. Well, what beach were you surfing on in Mexico, or did you go to a bunch of different ones? CHARLOTTE: I've been to a bunch, but I was living in Sayulita. I've still got a place there that I keep because I love to be in the ocean. It's one of my favorite things to do. Surfing is definitely a good lifestyle choice of mine. VICTORIA: There's not much surfing in London now, so your desire to start your new company must be really powerful [chuckles], very strong. CHARLOTTE: Yeah, I actually have questioned myself, especially over the last few months when it's been full, mid-winter here: cold, dark, raining. Like, what am I doing? Why did I give up my kind of dream life working between LA and Mexico, being able to surf, you know, at least two, three, four times a month to come back here to do this? But the bigger picture is, hopefully, I will be able to go and surf wherever I like after I've built this business. So, that's kind of the end goal for me. VICTORIA: Yeah. Tell me more about what led you to start your own business. CHARLOTTE: I have been working as a stylist for the last 12-plus years. And then, obviously, my work took me to the U.S. A friend of mine gave me his little black book contacts of where I should go and places I should use in LA. And I walked into a rental house there that was for industry only and got a lightbulb moment. I was like, oh my God, why is this not happening back in London? And it kind of didn't make sense to me because the productions back in the UK are, well, they seem more sustainable. Everyone's hitting their kind of green quotas and targets. So, it just made sense to me, but not just from, like, the sustainability point of renting clothes, but also having an industry-only place that you can go to and basically prep most of your job in one go. So, it was, like, saving time on the start of the job but also on the end, which is the return side, which people don't always realize. Everyone's like, "Oh, it's so glamorous working in fashion and styling." But we are bag ladies. I will often have minimum six, eight cases with me, rails and rails, racks and racks of clothes. I'm always the first one there. I'm the last one there because we're packing away. It's lots of steaming, just lots of stuff. So, to me, it just made perfect sense to recreate the same thing in London. But then I started getting into it a little bit more and started looking at tech and how that can transform what we're doing, too. WILL: Before we get too deep into The Fashion Library, I want to, one, explain what a stylist does because, like I said, I am not fashion-forward or friendly. So, tell me kind of what that looks like to do. And also, how did you become a stylist? Was it a dream of yours always, or what did that look like? CHARLOTTE: I just love clothes. So, I actually was going to be a lawyer, and I went to school to study law [chuckles], and I ended up being a stylist. So, there's different kind of realms and levels of a stylist. You can be a personal stylist where you work in the consumer realm, helping people dress themselves. Then, you have your editorial stylists who create beautiful imagery for magazines. Then there's the commercial stylists who work on advertising, film, TV production. Then you've got your celebrity stylists. There's different kind of layers within being a stylist. I actually work across a broad range of that. I do editorials, so magazines. I've worked with some talent, music videos, TV commercials, short films, stills, and advertising campaigns. And what I really love is how different every job is. It's never the same. You're never with the same crew of people. Every job is different. Sometimes, you might be on set for just one day. Sometimes, you're on set for a week. There's weeks and weeks of prep that goes into the job. There's also a lot of work on the backend doing returns, and budgeting, and reconciling everything. You literally have to love clothes. WILL: Where did your love for clothes come from? CHARLOTTE: [chuckles] That's a good question. I always thought it was my mum, but, actually, it was definitely my dad. I look at pictures of him from the '70s, '80s. He's got some wild outfits on. And I've got some of his pieces. I've got this floral jacket that we all used to get dressed up in when we were younger because it's the most outrageous piece. I have it now. It's actually amazing. I actually had it on the other week with just a little black vest and some jeans. And because it's such a statement piece, it looks super cool, but it's classic '60s. So yeah, definitely from my dad. He had a wild penchant for clothes. VICTORIA: I loved how you brought up, in the beginning, that the role of a stylist is often portrayed as being very glamorous and being very just so fun and creative and how the reality of it is that it's more carrying bags around, and picking up at the end of the day, and getting the clothes ready, and how tedious that can be. And you discovered technology could take some of that tedious out of the process and allow stylists to focus their time on the creative aspects. CHARLOTTE: Yeah. So, originally, my plan with The Fashion Library was just to kind of replicate what was happening in the U.S. with the rental house models and just bring it here. And I have a friend who I met surfing in Mexico. He's in his 50s, very successful tech entrepreneur. And I wanted to run my business past him just to kind of get some outsider knowledge but someone who's been there and done it. And he actually said to me, he was like, "This is great, but you should really, like, start to look at tech and how that is going to really transform businesses in the future." And he flicked that switch on, and that was it. Then, I think a couple of weeks later, I started sending him all my brain dumps about tech and what I was thinking in my mind. And he actually turned around and said to me, "If you can see it in your mind, you can build it." So, I started to look at my pain points as a stylist. And I work differently in every city because you have to adapt. Like, in LA, I'm often out and about compared to London, where I work a lot online. So, I started to look at, like, the pain points of everywhere and what would really be beneficial. It always kind of dialed back to that question of, what would help me as a stylist? So, that's how I've built the business, by looking at that aspect and what's helpful, what's not. WILL: Yeah, I like that view because I totally agree. Tech is in pretty much everything. It's all about, how can you see it to help you with your pain points? So, that's amazing that you sat back; you saw the pain points, and it helped you create what you're doing. So, that's really, really amazing. Can you tell me more about The Fashion Library? What does that look like? What did you create? What was your pain points? CHARLOTTE: We launched in mid-July last year with a physical showroom of around 500 pieces, which was just my archive. And then I'd built out a very rough and ready Shopify to kind of replicate what was going on in the physical realm but in the virtual realm. I hadn't shot all those pieces, so it was maybe only 200 pieces online. And then, within two weeks, I'd managed to grow the archive to well over a thousand pieces, and then I was like, ugh, I need to get all this shot now. And it's me doing all of this. I'm working with a friend who's a photographer. And I style all the pieces on a ghost mannequin. I've already thought about some techie idea in my head about how to get around that in the future. I don't know if it's possible, but I can see it in my mind. We can build it. So, I just wanted them both to kind of work in the physical and virtual realm, but then, obviously, always going back to John's advice from Mexico that, you know, really start to look more into the tech. And the tech's definitely taken over. We haven't built any yet. We are currently about to start raising because we want to build a fully functional marketplace that's industry-only. There's going to be a phase three, which will be a whole working platform that will streamline the working process from start to finish with lots of clever little things thrown in. And I don't want to give too much away on this because it is just in my mind right now. Obviously, it's on paper, too, but I've just been looking at what else is going on in the fashion realm, in the fashion tech realm, and there's lots of exciting things. There was a stylist who reached out to me just before Christmas. She's actually an avatar stylist. So, I was really interested to speak to her. They're currently creating avatars from humans. So, soon, everyone's going to be able to have their own avatar if they want. But there's some really, really interesting and innovative stuff happening within the tech space, and there's definitely exciting things. And I can see a lot of scope in the future for The Fashion Library in terms of how we build the tech and adapt and how we kind of disrupt the industry, not just here in the UK, but globally. VICTORIA: Thank you for sharing all of that. I think that's so interesting. And I also really love that you made the connection from surfing that got you excited about tech and excited about all these possibilities that you're describing. I'm just imagining, like, a little side conversation while you're paddling around out in the ocean [laughs]. But I don't know if that's how it really happened. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. VICTORIA: What's your method for engaging with the industry on this issue and building your customer discovery process? CHARLOTTE: Obviously, it's something I'm really passionate about. I knew that there would be others out there, too. We've been hunting for the stylists currently, so LinkedIn, this platform called The Dots here, Instagram, obviously, and then also connecting, like, higher up the food chain with production companies, ad agencies, really kind of targeting it from the top bottom down. And then, the last couple of months, we've been focused on finding some founding members who are busy working commercial stylists who love the idea of sustainability and rental and want to be early adopters and users of The Fashion Library. We've had great feedback from them. So, having that feedback from people and it being positive is like a driving force behind what we're trying to create and creating. VICTORIA: Has there been anything surprising in your conversations that has caused you to maybe pivot in your strategy? CHARLOTTE: I mean, definitely, when I first took the idea to my surfing friend in Mexico, he really made me pivot from bricks and mortar into tech. I was always going to build out a tech platform, but it was literally just going to be online rental, just because of how I like to work in the UK. I think talking to him that really opened my eyes. And then, also, kind of going off and launching really then understanding what he'd said to me. Because I think after I launched, I realized that actually the bricks and mortar is nice, and it's really nice to have that space and the showroom as a showcase, but it's not where I want to be. I'm really excited and really focused to get the tech going. It's really exciting. And if we can create what I'm envisaging, I think it's going to be so useful. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I love that you're really focused on a specific group and creating something for the industry that you're in. Can you share any other specific problems or challenges that a stylist may have with a wardrobe rental app versus a person like me who's just trying to, like, rent a dress for the weekend or something? CHARLOTTE: Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, rental is trending as a whole globally. So, there are a lot of consumer-facing rental apps and businesses out there. But the thing about stylists is it's quite a lonely career. Yes, you have your assistants, but until you're on set or with your clients, you're pretty much on your own. And I think after COVID, there was that real push for community. And also, as stylists, we tend to sit on big archives that we've collected from jobs, or we've had custom pieces made that actually never went to set or got used. And we don't want to get rid of them because they're special to us, but at the same time, they're just kind of sitting there gathering dust. So, being able to put those out to your peers and know that they're, like, going to go onto an advertising job or a TV commercial, or, I don't know, a short film, or a feature film, or on talent is kind of exciting because they're almost getting repurposed for what they were originally purposed for. And also, being able to make money from your dormant archive that's kind of a cool thing; it's a first. And knowing that it's not in the customer consumer realm, so you don't really have to worry too much about your amazing couture dress that you had for this artist and it was never worn going to a wedding and getting trashed. WILL: I think I understand kind of what the flow is. So, for example, if tomorrow I want to become a stylist, before The Fashion Library, would I have to own all my pieces to even get into the space? CHARLOTTE: It really depends what kind of realm you're working in. Obviously, if you're working on editorial and with celebrities, you tend to get pieces from brands because they give you pieces or loan you pieces for publicity, so it's kind of a two-way deal. However, when you're working on film, TV, commercials, advertising, you get given production budgets, like, wardrobe budgets. So, the current way that we work is we go out and shop, and we shop a lot. And we also fuel the fast fashion monster because a lot of the time, we have minimal budgets. We have this store in the UK, and it's called Primark. It's very, very, like, cheap and not good for the environment, and there's also ASOS as well. There's all this kind of online fast fashion places. And it's, like, you get the budget, and they want Prada, or they want designer and luxury. However, you've only got the budget to afford Primark or ASOS. And, actually, what a lot of people don't realize is that stylists spend a lot. Say they get given a £2,000 or $2,000 budget; they will spend £6,000 or $6,000, and what isn't used, they then return. But because they're buying into the fast fashion brands, a lot of the time, once they do those returns, especially the online stores, it goes back, and it's actually landfilled or incinerated because the price point for them to repackage it is so minimal that it's actually cheaper for them to just get rid of it. So, we are actually really adding to the problem of fashion being a massive pollutant globally. WILL: I didn't even catch that part, but yeah, that sounds amazing that not only, you know, if you said, "I had a budget for this movie or whatever. Can I get more pieces?" Because I'm looking at your website right now, and it looks cheaper to rent them than if I was buying them outright. So, I have more choices, but also, I'm saving the world. That sounds, yeah, that's a win, win, win. CHARLOTTE: Yeah, that's so right. One of our slogans is, 'Saves time, money, and the planet.' VICTORIA: It sounds like a core value that drives your everyday decisions. Are there any other values that help guide you as a founder as you're building your business? CHARLOTTE: Just the positive feedback from everyone in the industry, whether that's from the producers, production companies, stylists, just everyone getting it because it is such a simple idea. So, it's just having that recognition and just knowing that what you've envisaged and you're creating is valued. That's a huge driving factor for me. VICTORIA: And what does success Look like in six months or in five years from now? CHARLOTTE: I think in six months, it will be to have a business that is growing and really living up to its foundations of helping stylists, making their lives easier, saving time, money, and the planet, growing the archive to double what it is currently. So, it's currently around 2,000 pieces. It'd be great to have 4,000-plus in the next six months. Continue to grow our user base, and just expand on that, and grow the connections that we're already creating within the industry with our affiliations with the green sustainability companies. There's some exciting things happening. I don't want to talk about them just because until they're, like, done, I'm always a bit like, oh, I don't know if I should put that out there yet. But yeah, generally, just, like, expanding and building the business and also completing the first raise and starting to build and develop the tech. That's something I'm really ready and excited to do. It's scary, but it's also super exciting. WILL: Yeah. I can't wait to see what comes out of it because it seems like you can go so many directions with this. Because, like you were saying, like, brick and mortar versus tech and, like, that means you can reach anywhere that you can ship products to, instead of having to come to one location. Even nowadays, like, Amazon does a little bit of it, but like, when you're trying to buy furniture or something, you can put it in the room and see how it sits there and stuff. So, it's so many things because I know, like, fashion, the one thing I do know about fashion is how it looks on the person, so, like, you know, seeing how it looks on that person through technology. I'm so excited because I can see so many directions you can go with it. CHARLOTTE: Will, you are right on the money there. I'm not going to say too much more, but yeah, you're definitely getting my vision a little bit. There's so much scope for it, too. And also, I mean, what you've kind of touched on is what I've envisaged. But, again, it's also, like, just keeping focused and keeping on that path for now because there's also so many different avenues further down that you can go into, too. Like, the potential and possibility with this is endless. VICTORIA: What advice do you have for other founders out there who are building products in the fashion industry? CHARLOTTE: That it's okay to make mistakes. You've actually just got to start. That's one of the things. You know, I worked on this for almost a year and a half before I brought it live. And I think I wanted to be as ready as possible. And knowing that it's okay to not have all the answers and, also, being able to learn really quickly and ask for help from people that you trust, and that age-old saying of trust your gut. If something with someone doesn't feel right, it's probably not, so just trusting that. And also, just being able to pivot. You can't be so focused and rigid with what you're trying to create because it's going to, I mean, mine's changed so much from what I initially envisaged to where I'm at now, and it's going to keep changing. And that's okay because it needs to be adaptable in order to succeed and survive, I think. And also, you're going to get a lot of people who are going to promise so much. At the end of the day, no one's going to work on it as hard as you are, and that's okay. But don't trust everyone who says they're going to do X, Y, Z for you because, usually, they're not. And they're always the ones that fall at the first hurdle. WILL: One thing I love about doing this podcast is listening to entrepreneurs and their mindset and how they got to the place to even, like you said, start something. I feel like that's one of the biggest hurdles is just starting something. I want to understand more about your mindset. What is your wind in your sails? What motivates you? CHARLOTTE: I got this idea. I've always had ideas but just generally just spoken about them and never really took them to fruition, whereas with this one, I was adamant I was going to do it. I actually ended up having my heart and soul ripped out of me and was, like, rock bottom, and this was already after I'd had this idea about this. And it was that need to, like, just heal and grow that I really just threw my all into it and was like, you know what? I'm going to try this. Like, I just suddenly found my path, and I just got so focused and determined on building this, so I haven't looked back yet. Trusting your idea, knowing that it's okay to, like, make mistakes from time to time. But just being a little bit naïve, I've definitely learned a lot. But yeah, just having that determination and discipline to just keep going. Even when people who've promised you the world, like, ghost you or disappear on you, if it's your baby and it's your vision and you believe in it, you can make it happen. VICTORIA: Thank you. That's really wonderful advice, and I think will really resonate with our listeners. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote today? CHARLOTTE: Yeah, so anyone involved in film, TV, and advertising production, or any stylists and costume designers, follow us on Instagram. Join our mailing list via our website, even if you're not London and UK-based, because we've got some really big, big things coming over the next 12 months. So, I know we're only London and the UK at the moment, but the vision is global. So, join us on our mission. VICTORIA: That's so exciting. Thank you so much for coming on to the show and sharing your story with us. CHARLOTTE: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: You're welcome. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido interviews Dustin Butcher, CEO and Co-Founder of MADE TECH, a company revolutionizing the performance apparel industry through custom and made-to-measure automation technology. Dustin shares his journey from working in the outdoor industry and running a creative agency to founding MADE TECH. The company's mission is to provide performance apparel that perfectly fits the wearer's body, addressing a common issue where standard sizes fail to accommodate individual body shapes and sizes, particularly in sports where fit and movement are crucial. Dustin discusses the inspiration behind MADE TECH, which stemmed from personal experiences with ill-fitting outdoor apparel during activities like ski touring. He highlights the company's focus on inclusivity, allowing for 100% size inclusivity and addressing the needs of a broad spectrum of body shapes and sizes. This initiative caters to individuals who traditionally struggle to find performance gear that fits and opens the door for brands to offer more inclusive product lines. Dustin's background in the outdoor industry and encounters with the limitations of standard sizing in apparel led to the development of a technology-driven solution that customizes clothing to the individual's measurements, enhancing performance and comfort. The conversation also touches on the industry's broader implications of custom and made-to-measure apparel, including sustainability and waste reduction. Dustin elaborates on MADE TECH's business model, which initially targeted direct-to-consumer sales but has pivoted towards partnering with established brands to offer custom-fit options. This strategic shift aims to leverage brand trust and reach a wider audience, promoting inclusivity and personalization in the performance apparel market. MADE TECH (https://www.made-custom.com/) Follow MADE TECH on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/made-tech/). Follow Dustin Butcher on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustin-butcher/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript:  VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Dustin Butcher, CEO and Co-Founder of MADE TECH, powering the future of performance apparel with custom and made-to-measure automation. Dustin, thank you for joining me. DUSTIN: Oh, thank you so much for having me, and I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah. So, why don't you just introduce yourself a little bit more and tell me about your background? DUSTIN: Yeah, of course. So, as you mentioned, I'm one of the co-founders of MADE. We have built technology that enables the automation of custom and made-to-measure performance apparel. So, similar to how you could, like, you know, go online and design a custom suit or something like that and get it made to fit your body, we do that for performance apparel so that the product that really matters if it fits you properly and that sort of thing, and, you know, so that might be outdoor apparel, motocross, yoga. Whatever sport it is that you're into that, you need your apparel to move with you; that's what we fuel. And so, we're working with a bunch of different brands in that space to do that. My background, I came from the outdoor industry; always been in the outdoor industry since I was able to hold a job, originally just at ski resorts and stuff as a lifty and as a waiter, and all those types of classic, you know, teenage jobs. And then I worked in-house at a bunch of outdoor companies, Voilé, a little backcountry ski company here in Salt Lake, and then Black Diamond, and Gregory Packs, and Petzl, and kind of worked around the industry a bit. And then for the last 12 years, I ran a creative agency, specifically in the outdoor industry, working with a lot of those same brands and other brands in kind of communicating their value to the outdoor customer. And so, and then we kind of rolled into MADE, had this idea, connected with my co-founders, and really built it from there. VICTORIA: I love hearing about people building careers in the outdoor industry, something really close to me personally. I also got my first few jobs from rock climbing and having competed as a young adult and then walking up to businesses and saying, "Hey, you have a climbing wall. Like, you should hire me, and I'll run your climbing wall." And they're like, "Okay." [laughs] So, it just, like, brings you so much confidence and such a great community to be a part of. And so, you're talking about creating clothes that move with you. Can you tell me a time when you were doing something, some kind of performance sport activity, and you were like, "Wow, whatever I'm wearing does not fit me. This is really affecting my performance and my ability to do this sport"? DUSTIN: Yeah, I probably have too many of these stories. And what's interesting about that is I'm a pretty traditionally medium guy. I'm 5'11. I'm 170 pounds. Like, I should generally fit into mediums, but I'm just in that weird spot where I always kind of feel like, am I a medium or a large in this? My torso is a bit long. So, my primary sport is ski touring, like, backcountry skiing. That's what I love to do. That's where I spend my time and my focus and a lot of that kind of stuff. So, I've had lots of experiences where I might be climbing up a [inaudible 03:08], and my jacket comes up a bit on my lower back and exposes my lower back, and it's cold. And so, then I got into defaulting where I wear, like, one-piece base layers, so I can never expose my skin directly. But it's like, the ultimate solution really was to have properly fitting stuff. The original concept for MADE came from I was out on a ski tour with some friends, and I was wearing a pair of pants, some soft shell pants that I loved the fit of. But the feature set wasn't there, and they were, like, Alpine climbing pants. They're not even designed for ski touring. They didn't fit over my ski boot. They looked a little bit silly, but I loved the fit, like, in the leg. And they didn't have like, you know, a beacon pocket and those types of things that I would want. But I do have this other pair of ski touring soft shell pants that I wear most of the time that fit terribly but have all the features that I want. And it was like, ah, man, I wish I could, like, determine exactly what I need as a skier and then, you know, would have the confidence that it was going to fit me perfectly, that sort of thing. And that's really where it kind of started. It was a very selfish, like, how can I get the thing that I want? You know, I connected with my co-founders, both of whom came from Arc'teryx to start this with me. And we really got to thinking, and it's like, wow, with this type of system, we can make a really big impact as far as like, we can be 100% size-inclusive. There's not body shapes or sizes we can't meet with this type of system. And so, then it really opened a lot of doors as far as, like, what we can do and how we can connect this. And that's when we all kind of came together on this idea and said, like, "This matters, and we're the ones to build it." VICTORIA: I love that you're trying to fit something that works for you, and you realize having that ability could make it inclusive for everyone. And I wonder if you could share more about what you know about sizing in the clothing industry and, how that's developed over time, and how it may be really limiting who has access to the products that you're selling and the activity that those products allow you to do. DUSTIN: It might sound like a crappy, little history lesson, but, you know, the further back we go...before the industrial revolution, clothing was made to fit the individual, you know, you'd go to a tailor, and you'd tell them what you need the product to do for you, and they'd measure you and make the product. And then we got into this mass manufactured thing, which is great as far as, like, efficiencies and economies of scale, and all that kind of stuff. And so, we can get stuff cheaper and still, like, high-level product, but we got into this standardized system. And then companies deal with this challenge of like, okay, what is our small? What is our medium? What is our large? And finding those things and trying to meet the needs of the bell curve but also knowing that for every individual person, they're not meeting that person's fit needs, right? They're trying to fit as many people within the primary sizes as they can, and that's part of the challenge. One of the things that we've run into in performance product, especially, is that, like, there are massive swaths of people that simply cannot get good performance product in their size. 68% of North American women are over a size 14, and it's really hard to find good ski outerwear, as an example, for a plus-size individual like that. And that's not even that plus size. That's an average, like, that's 68%. Like, we're not talking about like, oh, these are the ends of the bell curve. These are people who want to get out and do things, and they've been unable to do it because of clothing. What a silly reason to not be able to do the sport that you're excited about, or even to go spend time with your friends and family, or whatever it might be, like, your motivation, but, like, what a bummer of a reason to not be able to do it. So, those are the things we're trying to solve through our system is saying, like, "Hey, we can work with these existing brands, and they can now offer stuff that is fully inclusive, meets all of their quality expectations, all of this, and still comes in with a very reasonably priced product." You know, it's not what you think custom would be where it's like, oh, it's going to be five times the cost of the ready-to-wear product. No, we can come in at the same price or very similar with these brands and allow them to make options that meet the needs of all different shapes and sizes. VICTORIA: Well, I can really relate to that because some of the clothes that I would wear for climbing or even yoga are coming in at a very high price point already. And I recently tried on a set of clothing from a retailer who's normally, like, known for yoga and outdoors equipment. And I was just surprised at how it seemed that they wanted the person who fit these clothes to be very narrow all the way through [laughs]. And I was like, wow, I'm struggling to fit in these clothes. And, like you said, like, I feel like I'm pretty average, and that was frustrating, and especially, like, getting clothes like that it can really deter people from participating in the sport and participating in outdoor activities altogether. So, I think it's really cool that you are going down that journey. Let me ask you, how did you get the original idea for MADE TECH, specifically? DUSTIN: So, first, we had to determine, is it possible? Can you make a system that would automate the creation of a custom pattern, all of that kind of stuff in really technical product, right? We know it can be done in suits and jeans and that sort of category that's more of a simple cut-and-sew. Whereas when you get into technical product where you're dealing with waterproof fabrics and seam sealing, you know, in a ski jacket, there's, like, 200 pieces of that product versus two pieces that get, like, pushed together and sewn between, right? Like, it's really, really complicated stuff. So, we started with that kind of hypothesis is, yes, we can figure this out, and we did that under a D2C brand, MADE Outdoor. It's madeoutdoor.com. It's now been live for almost two winters, and we've made a bunch of product and a bunch of people happy. And, you know, we had some really early success with really tall, thin dudes, you know, like, that 6'6, you know, I'm sub 200 pounds or something. I'm really thin. And that person has been kind of forced into wearing a triple XL jacket for so long. So, they're pretty psyched. And so, like, we've had some of those early wins, and that was really kind of like, okay, we tested it. We've proven this system works. And so, it's really just been in the last six months that we've said, like, okay, now where do we make the biggest impact? How do we make that change in the industry and in these opportunities to participate in these sports? And that's not through our own brand. That is one piece of it. Sure. But the larger opportunity is for us to work with existing brands that have that consumer trust already that, you know, like, "Oh yeah, I've worn this brand for however many years, and I have that trust, and I love the brand. And now I can get something that fits me perfectly." Or it's that person that's like, "Oh, I've always worn this brand because it fits me, but I really would love to wear this other brand, but I know it doesn't fit me properly." And so, it opens doors for people to kind of like say like, "Okay, what's the brand? What are the materials? What's the brand ethos that really connects with me? And be able to go there and not have fit be the reason that I can go with one or the other." VICTORIA: That's really interesting. So, you started with originally direct-to-consumer custom ski and snowboard wear and, found your initial success, and then identified a pivot point where you could expand and do direct business-to-business and make other brands more inclusive as well. DUSTIN: Yeah, that's the big idea, right? And it doesn't need to be my name or our brand name on the thing. Like, what we've built, like, there's just an opportunity for an impact here that's bigger than just us. VICTORIA: I love that. And it makes me want to ask you, what other core values drive your everyday decisions as you go about your process here? DUSTIN: Yeah, the three kind of pillars we think about anytime we are working on something, and really that kind of drive our whole system at MADE, is inclusivity, sustainability, and personalization. I should come up with a better way to say that, but it's those three, right? So, on the personal side, we want you to have the thing that you need. Your setup for some climbing clothing is going to be different than mine. You're going to want to set things up differently. And maybe you are a boulderer, and I am a big wall climber. Yeah, we have different needs for what we have. And so, we want you to be able to kind of define that rather than just being a designer in some boardroom somewhere. So, that's the personalization side. The second is the sustainability side. 30%, and this sounds outrageous, but 30% of apparel is never sold to an end consumer. And it eventually gets destroyed or sent to the landfill, which obviously has a massive sustainability impact, not only for that product to how do you dispose of that kind of thing, but also just, like, we made it, and it took time, and it took money, and it took human hours and all that kind of stuff. So, that's a huge opportunity for us because everything that is made through the MADE system it already has a home. Like, we never make a thing...if any of our brands are using our system, they only make things that already have a home. So, that's a huge win. We immediately take off that 30% of overproduction, right? And then the inclusivity stuff we've talked about already, but it's like, we just want people to be able to do the things that makes them happy. And it's a bummer when you can't do those things, whether it's climbing, or yoga, or whatever. Like, you know, there are some big brands that have had a hard time with size inclusivity, which is totally understandable. It's really hard to make product that fits everybody. And so, you know, we create these standardized systems, and then we knowingly leave people off. But we know that because it's like, well, not that many people in this size have bought from us, and we have to hit our MOQs, and we have to do X and Y and that sort of thing. But with this type of system, they can hit everybody, and they're not taking those, like, big risks as far as like, oh yeah, we have to set place this big order, and then all this product is going to sit in a warehouse for three years before it'll finally sell through. VICTORIA: It reminds me of a classic story you hear in software design about how they tried to make the first Air Force pilot chair; I don't know if you've heard this one, where they, like, took all the measurements of all the pilots and then they, like, averaged out all the, like, heights and widths and everything. So, they made this chair that fit no one. DUSTIN: Yeah [laughs]. VICTORIA: Because no one is perfectly average. Like, you know, everyone has variations in their size and their measurements. And so, I think that's really cool. It's interesting. I hadn't thought about the conservation impact or the impact on the environment; it takes just to have to have so much error in your sizing, which is naturally part of what's going to happen when you try to make an average size. DUSTIN: I've not been on the product design side of apparel. I don't envy them. Like, their job is hard to find that fit story that, okay, this is what the average consumer looks like. But what does our consumer look like, and then how do we find something that meets them? And what is our medium? And then, do we have to make a different medium for different markets in the world? And there's so much, like, level of detail in there. That's one of the beauties of us working with other brands now is that, like, their level of knowledge in that stuff is huge. And so, pulling from that and being able to say like, "For your product, how should this jacket fit somebody? How do you want it to move?" So, then, when our system pulls in the 3D measurements of that individual, it can say like, "Okay, this jacket needs to sit this far off of the shoulder. It needs to have this much room around the bicep." Like, those types of things are all part of how it works and gives those opportunities for, like, an individualized fit that is determined by how the brand wants it to perform. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: How did you go about, like, what was your first step when you said, "Oh, I need a system to do this type of automation and to be able to do this kind of customization"? How did you approach solving that problem? DUSTIN: Well, we started to figure it out, and we realized that the system didn't exist [laughs]. So, that's really what it was. It was out of necessity more than anything. So, we wanted to build our custom and made-to-measure brand, and none of the systems existed to do it. So, we got to work on building those systems. You know, that was, over the last year, it's like, okay, we built all these systems. Do we just use them for ourselves, or can we have that bigger impact if we work with other brands? VICTORIA: So, did you have the skills to build the technology already in-house, or did you have to develop that within your company? DUSTIN: Oh, man. So, my co-founders are amazing. I started this with two co-founders, Cheryl LeBarr and Capri Philip, both came from Arc'teryx to start this with me. Arc'teryx, if people don't know, is one of the big outerwear brands in the outdoor space, a beautiful, beautiful product. They understand fit and, form and function, and they make an amazing product. And I have connections over there, and so I made a few phone calls and really, like, found the right people. So, we got to work on it. None of us are coders. We kind of scrambled through our MVP. We figured out how we could do it with...if you look at our MVP backend, it's messy, like every startup's MVP is. And it's like, okay, this system is connecting to this system over here, and it's talking to this. And it's sending this data from here and that sort of thing. And it's like, but we figured it out, and that was the key. You know, so the automation of this stuff really came from the pattern design side, which was Capri's specialty. And then the automation of the, like, tech pack and all of the factory details that they need to produce the garment came from Cheryl's side, from the product development side. And mine was more on the brand and kind of communication of the value and that sort of thing. We were scrappy. And we figured out how to build something that worked. And then the next step was to bring on a proper CTO and then really build the, like, scalable system that's like, okay, now it can plug into existing systems. And, oh, you have these expectations of your enterprise-level software. Yes, this is how it works, that sort of thing. So, it's been tiered in that way. And that, honestly, is part of the fun. Like, part of the fun is finding these new problems to solve and then coming up with creative ways to solve them. VICTORIA: That's really cool. So, you all were able to build your MVP together within your existing co-founding team. I'm curious about, like, what platforms you chose to do that in. Did you pick, like, a programming language or some sort of, like, ClickOps or some kind of, like, other tool that you could use, like low-code tool, to develop it at first? DUSTIN: I mean, it's very low code. It's Google Docs, Google Sheets that speak to each other and, like, can share data between them kind of thing within our secret backend, obviously. We have a really great relationship with our measurement partner. We didn't build the measurement technology. That's a whole different business model and that sort of thing. So, we work with this great group called 3DLOOK that does our measurements, and it just uses a customer's phone to take a front and a side photo, and then we get a full 3D model that goes into our thing. It's super cool. We tried to pull some things off the shelf that existed that we could use without having to build it ourselves. With my agency business, like, I have a developer that I work with a lot. And so, like, we called on them to help us build a few pieces, but for the most part, it really was just, like, getting scrappy and creative together. And, like, we built the MADE Outdoor platform on Shopify. It's like all these systems that are just kind of like, yeah, we know how these systems work. Let's use those to start, and then if it works, then we build it into a bigger framework. VICTORIA: I'm glad you mentioned that there's take a picture because I was going to say, whenever I even have to do, like, a sizing guide chart on a website to buy clothes and you have to, like, measure your waist, I'm like, I don't want to do that [laughs]. I'm just, like, too lazy. I don't want to check that right now. So, taking a picture would be so much easier. DUSTIN: People are so bad at that [laughs]. Like, when we first got started, and we were asking people to send in their measurements, and here's a video on how to do it, even the same person, like, with three different people measuring them, you'd get wildly different information. And so, we definitely knew early on, okay, we need to eliminate the human error aspect and get this as digital as possible. So, that's where we found the right partner. And it really is, it's, like, a two-minute thing. You stand in front of your phone. It takes photos. The photos aren't even saved anywhere, like; they're AI, like, looks at the photos and then gives us the model. We're not sitting on a bunch of pictures of people in their base layers and underwear or anything like that. It's like, all of this is just kind of like, we have your 3D model, and now we can build the product, and we can even do digital test fits on that person, your actual body, before it even gets made, and stuff. So, we have systems for redundancy and everything that we can test everything. And that's just the beauty of, like, the modern technology that exists. Like, we didn't build that either, but we are using the heck out of it to make sure that we can make the best product for people. VICTORIA: That's really cool. I love that. So, you've maybe answered this question already a little bit, but was there anything else in your product discovery process, and especially as you shifted into marketing directly to businesses, anything that was in your discovery process that surprised you and had you pivot in your strategy? DUSTIN: You know, you start with your own experience, right? So, we are sitting in our meetings, and it's like, oh man, here's all the products we want to make. And we're like, we've got this list of 40 things that we want. Oh, I need soft-shell pants. And we started in hard shell for our own brand. So, then it's like, "I live in the Wasatch. I don't wear hard shell, like, while I'm ski touring, at least. Like, I need soft shell." And then it's like, okay, well, let's start working on soft shell stuff. Then it's like, okay, we also need mid-layers, and we need base layers. And then we need mountain bike, and we need trail run, and we need climbing, and we need hiking. And it's like, oh man, you know what would be easier? If we just worked with, like, one of the or all of the big brands in this space. And there's some really great examples of, like, smaller companies that have created really compelling systems to work with these brands, like the same group that does the secondary market stuff, so the Worn Wear program for Patagonia and the ReGear thing for Arc'teryx. And they built that same structure for, like, two dozen different brands. And it's like, man, that is the model for us. That's where we can really connect is they've created so much value in the secondary market, and we've created a bunch of value in this custom and made-to-measure market. That's what we want to do. And we want motocross...like, the MADE brand isn't going to make motocross stuff. The MADE brand isn't going to make fly fishing necessarily. But we want these markets and these people to be able to have that solution. And we also, like, we're early in the space. Like, we want them to use us rather than, like, take the time and money and everything to build it themselves. Like, come to us, like, that's our whole idea. We want to have that bigger, larger impact. So, I guess it's us just trying to say like, "What do we want?" And we're users. We know the market. How do we get there the fastest? And how do we have that impact quicker than just necessarily, like, okay, well, in 25 years, we'll have all those products that we want? VICTORIA: Yeah, yeah, I could see that, how it went from, well, yeah, I would want this for every product, and then you're like, well, I can't build every product [laughs]. So, I like that pivot in your strategy. And what challenges do you see in being able to make that impact as quickly as you want? DUSTIN: One of our biggest challenges right now, I think, is that this is a totally new idea in this space. Nobody's done this in this space. Like, in suiting, custom suits have been a thing for a long time, and it used to just be for rich people. And now because of, like, modern technology and stuff, it's become more approachable. Awesome. That's great. And so, like, in that kind of category, people are more used to the idea of, like, yeah, I place an order, and it takes time, and they make a thing, and then it comes to me. Whereas with outdoor apparel and sports apparel and that sort of stuff, you go to your local shop. You try on six different things, and you walk out with the one that meets your needs the best. That's what people are used to. So, it's a little bit of a shift in the thought process. You know, we've had our early adopters, and now we're kind of moving into more people who are like, "Okay, I get it now." And so, we're seeing more of that where it's like, yes, if I give some time, then I really see the value of having something that fits me perfectly. And in the MADE Outdoor brand, it's not an inexpensive product. We make a really premium hard shell product. Now, it's comparable in price to the other brands that make comparably featured and whatever product, but still, you're spending money, and you want something that's going to last for a while. And so, to have that perfect fit, to have that perfect feature set, to know that when I ski, I totally need a left chest pocket, and I don't need a right chest pocket, whatever it might be, like, your details, that matters, right? So, that's probably our biggest challenge right now. That's not an unsolvable problem. We can manage that. We can get the communication out. And especially as we're onboarding these existing brands, that gives us the opportunity to have a much larger mouthpiece and be able to kind of say like, "Hey, this exists, and you should care." Yes, it's going to be amazing for individuals who have traditionally been off-size. But it's also amazing for you people who think you've always been just, "Yeah, I'm a medium, and everything fits me just fine." You'd be surprised. Like, having something that fits you perfectly is a different world, and the ability to then move in that sport and, like, be able to do your thing, it's like, oh yeah, I guess that, like, extra fabric in my shoulders was kind of, like, limiting my movement while ice climbing or, you know, oh yeah, my sleeves were always coming up while I was climbing, or whatever it might be. Like, there's things that I think people will really kind of be psyched about when they start to experience that custom aspect of it. VICTORIA: Yeah. I can speak to some of that, too, as, like, a climber. And you mentioned it even when you talked earlier about, well, if you're bouldering at the gym, that's a totally different experience than if you're out all day on a multi-pitch, and you're on the wall, and you're, you know, you're vertical for, like, six hours of the day [laughs]. And I think it's really interesting to be able to provide that customization. And how are you defining success for the company? So, you just made this pivot about six months ago. Did you immediately create some goals that you wanted to achieve in three months, six months, or five years? DUSTIN: Yeah, I mean, we have our, like, target, our sales targets and stuff that we are looking at as far as we want these many brands on board this year. And we want to bring on like, you know, as I step back a little bit, as, like, the bigger thoughts behind the company, that's more of, like, where we're trying to target multiple different categories at the same time. So, like, if we can get one big outdoor brand, great, that's what we want to do. Now, we want all the outdoor brands. We totally want them all. But if we can just get one, then we're going to have a start of an impact in the outdoor sector. Then we want the motocross brand, and we want to be able to make the impact in that sector. And we want the fly fishing brand, and we want the yoga brand, and we want the traditional, like, team sports brands and those types of things. Like, we want to kind of, like, spread and have an impact across categories and as kind of a first attack. And then to really kind of go from there and say like, "Okay, now let's build out, like, oh, fly fishing really is connecting with this, or the yoga community is loving the, like, idea of a really custom fit product." So, like, those types of things are where we can kind of go from there. But as we begin, it's really like, can we make an impact across these different categories? And those are a lot of our goals as we start out. It's like, how can we connect with surf? How can we connect with hike? How can we, you know, like, and it's just looking at each of these little categories because we know there's people being stuck that can't get out in each of those things, and we know we can help. But we're not going to design the product personally. So, how can we make that impact with the right partners? VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. And I'm even thinking about surfing and getting a wetsuit. And there's just so few women wetsuits, period, in the store. And it's very limited in range and can be really challenging. And I took a friend surfing last year and did not enjoy that process. She did not like it [laughter]. She liked the surfing part, but the getting the wetsuit on and trying them on was not great [laughs]. DUSTIN: I can only imagine, yeah. And there's some really cool, like, in surf, there are some great small brands, like, new brands that are doing custom fit. I don't know their systems. I don't know if it's an automated process or if it's a manual process, but the reality is it's not readily available enough to the general public. And that's where it's like, oh man, our system makes it readily available. And so, then it's like a simple kind of like, okay, I go online. I fill in this information. I decide, do I want a hood on my wetsuit? Do I not want a hood? Do I want this kind of entry? Do I want...Like, you decide the details that you want, and then the product is made for you. That's the beauty of it, right? VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious to kind of get back to marketing to existing businesses because you not only have to sell them on this is the art of the possible. Here's, like, what you could do to get the same performance with these custom measurements of your existing high-performing apparel. But you also have to encounter this change management process where they have a way of doing things. You'd be a new product. They'd have to figure out how to change up all their operations. So, I'm curious: what's your strategy for getting involved in that and working through it? DUSTIN: Oh man, some of these companies are giant ships with tiny rudders, right? So, to get them to shift any direction or the other is tricky. A lot of our current sales pipeline is more medium-sized brands that have a little bit more of a nimble; yeah, we can jump on this. But one advantage we have is that some of these categories do have some custom programs, like I mentioned, the custom wetsuit stuff, like, that is in the market. So, like, wetsuit companies are aware that this needs to exist. Fly fishing waders: there are some custom fly fishing waders, now, not necessarily made-to-measure, but you don't make them in a 4XL or something. You could order a 4XL from a certain company. So, like, there are systems like that. So, they've actually already kind of figured out the manufacturing side, which is one of the challenges of it that we can help the brands figure out those details because we've done it, and we know how to, like, take advantage of the efficiencies that they have in place with their current supply chain, or they can use our supply chain that we've built out. So, it depends. But that is one of the challenges is to get them to just kind of commit to say like, "Yes, this is worth putting in the time." So, we do have...actually, the secondary market company I mentioned earlier, the way that they do it is it's, like, a separate site. And so, it's not run through their existing site. And so, they get around some of the ways of not necessarily having to be tied directly into a lot of their internal systems, and it's run as, like, a secondary system. Like, there are guitar manufacturers that make custom that they don't even produce them. They basically license out their shapes and stuff to custom builders. So, we're trying to take a lot of the learnings from these other categories that do something kind of similar to what we're doing and learn from them and say like, "Okay, that's one approach we could take, or that's an approach we could take." And then, really, we're going to the sales conversations with those brands and saying, "What do you need? Because we can be flexible." We're the opposite of the giant ship with a tiny rudder. We're that tiny, little motorboat that can, you know, like, spin circles and stuff. Like, we can do whatever is really needed at this point for these brands to be able to tie into them. So, we are flexible, and we try to learn as much from them as possible to be able to build the right solution. VICTORIA: Yeah, I think that is the draw of you get your foot in the door with the middle businesses, and you can prove out that it works, and then maybe eventually the bigger brands start to take notice and pick it up as well. But it is going to take time. That's really cool. I think it provides that, you know, for those mid-size businesses, it gives them an advantage that a larger enterprise wouldn't be able to offer. DUSTIN: Yeah, no, I think, at first, especially, like, the idea to be kind of first to market-ish with something totally new and exciting and to create that brand value with their customer in a way that they haven't been able to before. VICTORIA: Right. And you mentioned fly fishing a few times, and I feel like it's one of those sports that I've done it when I was, like, really small, like, maybe with my grandfather, like, fishing in the river. And as I get older, I'm like, it does sound nice. DUSTIN: Right? [laughs] VICTORIA: Like, sitting alone in, like, a beautiful place. Like, maybe you get a fish, maybe you don't. I think I like the idea of it more than the reality of it, but will try it out some...I have enough other sports [inaudible 33:02]. DUSTIN: I think you'd be psyched if you gave it a shot. Like, fly fishing is something that, like, if you like being outside, it's something else. There's a beauty to it, for sure. And there's a beauty to all of these sports. And, honestly, if people are being active, whatever it is that you're doing, good for you. And that's part of it is, like, we are trying to be as sport agnostic as we can in all of this because, yeah, we don't care if you are a diehard snowmobiler, right? Amazing. Great. Let's get you some product that fits so you can get out and do your diehard thing. Or, you know, maybe you're a mountain biker or a road cyclist, or, like, you know, there's so many things that we wear clothing that we hope allows us to perform in that sport, and yet so much of it is holding us back, even maybe to a degree that we don't even know. Professional athletes and stuff, much of their product is made-to-measure. Olympic speed skaters, like, it's not like they had to just choose a medium or a large type of product. Like, it's made to fit their body so that they can perform at their pinnacle level. That's awesome. Where that stops is in the, like, general consumer, and, like, I want to get out and do my sport. It's not about being the best at this thing. It's just about being my best at this thing and having the most fun that I want to have in it. The fit and the details of your product matter just as much as it does for the Olympian as far as I'm concerned. VICTORIA: Absolutely. And it reminds me of a story that happened to me. I was climbing in this very popular pant that is known as their climbing pant from this particular brand. And it was maybe the fifth time I'd worn these pants and just ripped the inseam while climbing. DUSTIN: [laughs] VICTORIA: You know, lucky it wasn't that cold that day or anything, but it's just [inaudible 34:50] DUSTIN: Your belayer got a kick out of it, I'm sure. VICTORIA: Yeah, there was a layer to this, right? Yeah. DUSTIN: [laughs] VICTORIA: And I've heard that happens to lots of climbers who wear those same pants. Like, they're known for that because it's really hard to get that measurement right, especially with that kind of material, which was great. It's like this material that was supposed to not rip, right? [laughter] [inaudible 35:09] what is this? Yeah. Maybe I do want to go outside, and I want to go fly fishing, or I want to go skiing or snowboarding, but, oh, they don't even have pants in my size. Like, I'm not even going to try. And that's really demoralizing. So, I think it's great to be working on that problem. Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much for joining. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today? DUSTIN: No, I mean, I think I love having these conversations, and chatting with you has been so great. It's fun to talk about what we're working on and to, you know, get the word out a bit more. There's not really other things to promote other than, like, you know, if you're a smaller or medium-sized or a large apparel brand hearing this, like, please reach out to me. I want to talk to you. We've built a system that really can help both the brand and the customer. It helps the brand with revenue and with margins and reduced waste and all of these things, but it also just helps the customer have a better product and a better experience. And ultimately, that's, in theory, what we are trying to do when we make product. So yeah, that's my focus, and that's what I want to talk to everybody I can about right now. VICTORIA: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for coming on the show today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Host Victoria Guido sits down with Steven Plappert, CEO of Forecastr, an online software designed to aid founders in financial modeling, which was born to help non-finance savvy founders understand and communicate their company's financial health. Despite the pandemic beginning right after Forecastr's launch in 2020, the company didn't pivot significantly thanks to extensive preparation and customer discovery before the launch. Steven delves into the operational and strategic aspects of Forecastr, highlighting the importance of balancing growth with financial sustainability, a consistent theme in their business strategy. Forecastr's significant development was integrating a strong human element into their software service, a move very well-received by their customers. Steven also outlines the company's key objectives, including cultivating a solid culture, achieving profitability, and exploring opportunities for exponential growth. Additionally, Steven discusses the importance of work-life balance, reflecting on his previous startup experience and emphasizing the necessity of balance for longevity and effectiveness in entrepreneurship. Victoria and Steven further explore how companies, including Forecastr and thoughtbot, incorporate these philosophies into their operations and culture. Forecastr (https://www.forecastr.co/) Follow Forecastr on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/forecastr/), X (https://twitter.com/forecastr), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/forecastrco/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ForecastrHQ), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/forecastr), or TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@forecastrco). Follow Steven Plappert on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-plappert-59477b3b/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant R¬obots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Steven Plappert, CEO of Forecastr, an online software that helps founders who hate building financial models in Excel actually understand their numbers, predict runway, and get funded. Steven, thank you for joining us. STEVEN: Hey, yeah, Victoria, thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be here. What's up, guys? VICTORIA: Just to get us warmed up here a little bit, can you tell me what's going on in your world? STEVEN: Well, you know, what is going on in my world? I had a great year last year, very healthy. I have a loving fiancé, and I'm getting married this year, which is going to be super fun. And, obviously, running a business, which takes up more than its fair share of my life. But yeah, it's early Jan, so I've been kind of reflecting on my life, and I got a lot to be grateful for, Victoria, I really do. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. You know, I used to work with a VP of strategic growth who likened forming partnerships with companies as getting into a marriage and building that relationship and that level of trust and communication that you have, which I think is really interesting. STEVEN: Oh, for sure. Emily always, Emily is my fiancé, she always says that, you know, Forecastr is essentially my mistress, if you will, you know what I mean? Because, like, that's [laughs] where the rest of my time goes, isn't it? Between hanging out with her and working on the company, you know, so... VICTORIA: So, how long have you been in a relationship with your business around Forecastr? [laughs] STEVEN: Yeah, right? Yeah [laughs]. Four years with this one. So, you know, we started it actually January 1st of 2020, going into the pandemic, although we didn't know it at the time. And so, we just celebrated our four-year anniversary a few weeks ago. VICTORIA: Well, that's really exciting. So, I'm curious about when you started Forecastr, what was the essential problem that you were trying to solve that you had identified in the market? STEVEN: I'd say the main problem we were trying to solve is that, like, specifically founders, you know, startup founders, really struggle to get, like, a clear picture of their financial health or, like, just the financial aspect of their business. And then they also struggle to communicate that to investors because most founders aren't finance people. You know, like, most people that start a company they don't do it because they're excellent in even, like, business or finance or anything like that. They usually do it because, like, they've identified some problem; they've lived it; they've breathed it, you know what I mean? They're some kind of subject matter expert. They may be good at sales, or marketing, or product. But a lot of times, finance is, like, a weak part for them, you know, it's not something that they're strong in. And so, they really have a hard time, like, understanding the viability of the business and communicating the financial outcome of the company to investors and stuff like that. And my co-founder Logan and I live that because all we did all day was built financial models in Excel for startup founders working for a CFO shop called Venture First. So, that's what we really saw. We really saw that just, you know, it's really hard for folks to get this clear picture. And we thought a big part of that, at least, was just the fact that, you know, there's no great software for it. It was just like, people are using Excel, which, you know, for people that are great in finance, you know, works but for most people, doesn't. And so, yeah, I think that that's what kind of inspired Logan and I to fly the coop there at Venture First and start a company. VICTORIA: No, that's really interesting. So, you found this problem. You knew that this was an issue for founders, and you built this hypothesis and started it. I think you said, like, right before 2020, right before the pandemic. So, were there any decisions you made that once you got more information or once you got started, you decided to pivot? And, like, what were those pivot points for you early on? STEVEN: There wasn't a lot of pivoting early on, I will say. And a part of that is because, like, this isn't my first company. I started a company right out of college back in 2013 called FantasyHub. In that company, we pivoted a lot and, largely because we didn't really put a lot of forethought into that company when we launched it, you know, we didn't do any customer discovery. We just launched the company. And then we skinned our knees a bunch of times [laughs] as we scaled that company up and had to change gears a lot of times. In Forecastr, you know, we had actually been kind of building towards starting the company for 18 months. So, Logan and I actually had the idea originally in middle of 2018. And we decided at that time, look, like, we're not going to go launch this company right away because we got full-time jobs, and we might as well de-risk it. So, we spent about 12 to 18 months just doing a lot of customer discovery, kind of in stealth mode while at Venture First. After about six months, we brought it up to Venture First and said, "Hey, here's this idea for a company we have. We want to go do it." You know, to Venture First's credit, you know, rather than viewing that territorially and saying, "Hey, you know, there's a great new product line for our company," they really inspired us to go forward with it. They said, "Hey, this is great. We want to support you guys." They put some money in. We did some more discovery. We built a prototype. So, long-winded way of saying that by the time we actually got to the starting line in 2020, you know, we had 18 months' worth of really clear thought put into this thing. And we had been building in this space for years, you know, building financial models and Excel for founders. So, I think we had a great understanding of the customer. We had a great understanding of the market and the needs. We'd done our diligence in terms of distribution and figuring out how we wanted to generate, you know, a good, healthy funnel for the business. And so, it was really just kind of a matter of execution at that point. And, you know, here we are four years in, and there really hasn't been anything that we've done that's really pivoted the business that much across those four years, except for one moment, which was actually six months ago. So, in July of 2023, we did finally have our first kind of pivot moment where one of the interesting things about Forecastr versus some other solutions in the market is that we're not just a product, just a SaaS platform. There's a real strong human layer to our solution. We've always felt like a SaaS plus human model was the right model for financial modeling for startups because a lot of these startup founders don't have finance expertise on staff or inherently. And about six months ago, it wasn't as much of a pivot as it was a double down. You know, we really doubled down on that human element, you know, and now that human element isn't just through, like, a white glove onboarding and some email support. But we actually do give our customers an analyst in addition to the software that's with them for the lifetime of their subscription and is with them every step of the way. And so, that's the only time that we really made, like, a significant change into what we were doing. And it was just, I think, off the back of three years of saying, "Hey, like [chuckles], people really love the human element, you know, let's lean into that." VICTORIA: I love that you saw that you couldn't solve this problem with just technology and that you planned for and grew the people element as well. And I'm curious: what other decisions did you have to make as you were growing the business, how to scale the tech side or the people side? STEVEN: So many decisions, right? And that's why I tell people all the time, I'm like, you know, I've been a founder for 11 years now. And, in my opinion, by far, the hardest part about being a founder is that all day, every day, you have to make a bunch of decisions. And you hardly ever have enough data to, like, know, you're making the right decision. So, you got to make a bunch of judgment calls, and ultimately, these are judgment calls that could make or break your company. And it's really taxing. It's taxing on the mind. It's stressful, you know. It is not easy. So, you know, I think it's one of the really hard things about being an entrepreneur. I would say one of the most consistent decisions that we've had to make at the highest level is decisions around kind of capital preservation, fiscal responsibility, and investing in the growth. So, categorically, it's like, on the one hand, you have a desire to build the company kind of sustainably, to get to profitability, to have a healthy working model, you know, where you have some real staying power, you know. And that line of thinking leads you to, you know, be conscientious about investments that you're making that, you know, increase the burn. On the other hand, you have a desire to grow the company very quickly. You know, you have certain benchmarks you need to meet, you know, in order to be attractive to venture capitalists. And so, you have decisions that you want to make, you know, to invest in that growth. And so, I think that's a very consistent theme that's played out across the four years is Logan and I trying to walk that tightrope between growing 2 to 3X year over year and being really mindful of the company's burn, you know, both for equity preservation and just to build the company in a more sustainable way. And I think as financial professionals and founders, the finance person in Logan and I a lot of times wants to be more conservative. The founder in Logan and I, a lot of times, wants to be more aggressive. And so, we kind of just, like, let those two forces kind of play themselves out. And I think it creates, like, a nice, healthy tension. VICTORIA: That is really interesting, yeah. And sometimes you have to make a guess [chuckles] and go with it and then see the results of what happens. So, you're a financial forecasting company. What kind of, like, key results or objectives are you working towards this year with Forecastr? STEVEN: Yeah, great question. So, we're really mindful of this kind of stuff. I'd say, you know, it's something that we really consider at a deep level is, like, you have to ultimately set objectives, which are very aligning and clarifying, you know, at an executive level, and then those should kind of filter all the way down through the organization. Because so much, I think, of building a company is you have to kind of punch above your weight. You have to grow faster than [chuckles] the resources that you're putting into it might expect or whatever. I mean, you have limited resources, limited time, but you got to go really quickly. I think alignment is a big part of that, and that starts with setting clear objectives. So, we actually have three very clear objectives, really four. The first one is living up to our cultural values. You know, we're a culture-first organization. We believe that, like, culture, you know, kind of eats strategy for breakfast, that age-old kind of cliché, but it's true. It's just like, I think, you know, if you build a really good culture, people are just...they're happier. They're more productive. You get more done. So, that is our number one strategic objective. Number two is to become profitable. Like I mentioned, we want to become profitable. We want to build a sustainable company. So, by setting that objective, it kind of forces us to be conscientious about spend and only invest in areas that we think is, like, a one plus one equals three. Our third strategic objective is reach 5 million in annual recurring revenue by the end of the year. We're at 2.4 right now. We want to at least double year over year. That's kind of, like, the minimum threshold to keep playing the venture game. And then number four is unlock exponential growth opportunities. So, we definitely adopt the philosophy of, like, hey, we've got a model. It's working. We've got 700 customers, you know, we've got two and a half million in annual recurring revenue. So, like, 80% of our focus should be on becoming profitable and hitting $5 million in annual recurring revenue. Like, that's, like, the bread and butter there, just keep doing what's working. But 20% of our attention should be paid to, well, what could we be doing to, like, triple down on that, you know, to really start to create an exponential growth curve? And, for us, that stuff and, like, kind of the data in investor space, like, there's a lot of interesting things that we could do, of course, as long as it's consensual, anonymized, et cetera, safe and secure, you know, with the kind of data that we have on private companies, you know, anonymously benchmarking companies against their peers, things like that. And I think there's a really big opportunity that we have to serve investors as well, you know, and to create a better investor experience when it comes to financial reporting, also something that we think can unlock exponential growth. So, those are the four objectives that we have going into this year. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that you had culture at number one, and it reminds me, you know, you said it's old adage, but it's true, and you can verify that in reports like the State of DevOps Report. The number one indicator of a high-security environment is the level of trust and culture that you have within your company, not necessarily the technology or tools that you're using. So, being a financial company, I think you're in a good position [chuckles] to have, like, you know, protect all those assets and protect your data. And yeah, I'm curious to hear more about what you said about just unlocking, like, exponential growth. It's hard to keep both the let's keep the lights on and keep running with what we have, and make room for these bigger strategic initiatives that are really going to help us grow as a company and be more sustainable over time. So, how do you make room for both of those things in a limited team? STEVEN: Yeah, it's a great question. And it's not easy, I would say. I mean, I think the way we make room for it probably on the frontend is just, like, being intentional about creating that space. I mean, ultimately, putting unlocking exponential growth opportunities on the strategic company roadmap, which is the document that kind of memorializes the four objectives that I just went through, that creates space inherently. It's one of four objectives on the board. And that's not just, like, a resource that sits, you know, in a folder somewhere. We use the OKR system, you know, which is a system for setting quarterly objectives and things like that. And these strategic objectives they make it on our OKR board, which filters down into our work. So, I think a big piece of creating the space is just as an executive and as a leader, you know, being intentional about [chuckles] putting it on the board and creating that space. The thing that you have to do, though, to be mindful is you have to make sure that you don't get carried away with it. I mean, like you said, at the end of the day, succeeding in a business requires a proper balancing of short-term and long-term priorities. You know, if you're focused too much on the short term, you know, you can kind of hamstring yourself in the long run. Yeah, maybe you build, like, a decent business, but you don't quite, you know, reach your highest potential because you're not investing in some of those things that take a while to develop and come to play in the long run. But if you're too focused on the long run, which is what these exponential opportunities really are, you know, it's very easy to lose your way [laughs] in the short term, and it's very easy to die along the way. You know, I do think of startups as much of a game of survival as anything. I always say survive until you thrive. And so, that's where the 80/20 comes in, you know, where we just kind of say, "Hey, look, like, 80% of our time and energy needs to be devoted to kind of short-term and less risky priorities, such as doubling down on what's already working. 20% of our time, thereabouts, can be devoted to some of these more long-term strategic objectives, like unlocking exponential growth. And I think it just takes a certain mindfulness and a certain intentionality to, like, every week when you're organizing your calendar, and you're, like, talking with your team and stuff like that, you're just always trying to make sure, hey, am I roughly fitting into that framework, you know? And it doesn't have to be exact. Some weeks, it may be more or less. But I think that's kind of how we approach it, you know, conceptually. VICTORIA: Oh, what a great perspective. I think that I really like hearing those words about, like, balance and, like, being intentional. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: You mentioned earlier that you're getting married, so, like, maybe you can talk about how are you intentional with your own time and balancing your personal life and making room for these, you know, big life changes while dealing with also the stress of being in kind of a survivor mode with the company. STEVEN: Like I mentioned, this is my second company, and Emily, bless her heart, my fiancé, she's been with me my entire entrepreneurial career. We started dating the first month that I started my first company, FantasyHub. And in that company, I ran that company for three years. We took it through Techstars down in Austin. It was a consumer gaming company. Interesting company. It ended up being a failure but, like, super interesting and set me on my path. Yeah, I was a complete and total workaholic. I worked around the clock. It was a fantasy sports company, so weekends were our big time, and I worked seven days a week. I worked, like, a lot of 80-hour-plus weeks. And, you know, looking back on it, it was a lot of fun, but it was also miserable. And I also burned out, you know, about six months before the company failed. And had the company not failed when it did, you know, I don't know what the future would have held for us. I was really out of balance. You know, I had deprioritized physical health. I hadn't worked out in years. I wasn't healthy. I had deprioritized mental health. Emily almost left me as a part of that company because I wasn't giving her any attention. And so, you know, when that company failed, and I was left with nothing, you know, and I just was kind of, like, sitting there licking my wounds [laughs], you know, in my childhood bedroom at my parents' house, you know, I was like, you know what? Like, I don't know that that was really worth it, and I don't know that that was the right approach. And I kind of vowed...in that moment, I was like, you know, look, I'm a startup founder. I love building these companies, so I'm, like, definitely going to do it again, but I'm not going to give it my entire life. Like, regardless of your religious beliefs, like, we at least have one life to live. And in my opinion, there's a lot more to life than [chuckles] just cranking out work and building companies. Like, there's a whole world to explore, you know, and there's lots of things that I'm interested in. So, this time around, I'm very thoughtful about creating that balance in my life. I set hard guidelines. There's hard, like, guardrails, I guess I should say, when I start and end work, you know, and I really hold myself accountable to that. Emily holds me accountable to that. And I make sure that, like, I work really hard when I'm at work, but I take the mask off, you know, so to speak, when I'm at home. And I just kind of...I don't deprioritize the rest of my life like I did when I was running FantasyHub. So, I think it's super important. I think it's a marathon building companies. I think you got to do that. I think it's what's in the best interest of the company and you as an individual. So, I think it's something I do a lot better this time around. And I think we're all better off for it, not the least of which is, like, one of our six cultural values is live with balance, and that's why. You know, because, like, we adopt the philosophy that you don't have to work yourself to death to build a great company. You can build a great company working a pretty reasonable workload, you know what I mean? It's not easy. It is kind of a pressure cooker trying to get that much done in that little time, but I think we're living proof that it works. VICTORIA: And if you don't make time to rest, then your ability to make good decisions and build high-quality products really starts to suffer eventually, like, I think, is what you saw at the end there. So, I really appreciate you sharing that and that personal experience. And I'm glad to see the learning from that, and making sure that's a core part of your company values the next time you start a company makes a lot of sense to me. STEVEN: Yeah, totally, you know, yeah. And I've always remembered, although this might be an extreme and a privileged extreme, but, you know, J.P. Morgan, the person, was famous for saying, "I get more done in 9 months than I get in 12," in relationship to the fact that he would take his family over to Europe for, like, three months of the year and, like, summer in Europe and not work. And so, while that's probably an unrealistic, you know, ideal for a startup founder, there's some truth to it, you know what I mean? Like you said, like, you got to rest. And, in fact, if you rest more, you know, yeah, you might be working less hours. You'll actually get more done. You're a lot clearer while you're at work. It's a mindset game. It's a headspace game. And the better you can put yourself in that good mindset, that good headspace, the more effective you are. Yeah, there's just a lot of wisdom to that approach. VICTORIA: Right. And, you know, thoughtbot is a global company, so we have employees all over the world. And I think what's interesting about U.S-based companies, I'm interested in how Forecastr might even help you with this, is that when you start a company, you basically form, like, a mini-government for your employees. And you have input over to how much they paid, how much healthcare they get. You have input over their hours and how much leave and everything. And so, trying to balance all those costs and create a good environment for your employees and make sure they have enough time for rest and for personal care. How does Forecastr kind of help you also imagine all of those costs [laughs] and make sense of what you can offer as a company? STEVEN: I would say the main way that we help folks do that, and we really do play in that space, is just by giving you a clear picture of what the future holds for your company from a financial perspective. I mean, it's one of the things that I think is such a superpower when it comes to financial modeling, you know, it can really help you make better decisions along these lines because, like, what does a financial model do? A financial model just simulates your business into the future, specifically anything related to the cash flow of your business, you know, cash in, cash out, revenue expenses, and the like. And so, your people are in there, and what they're paid is in there and, you know, your revenue and your expenses, your cash flow, your runway, all that's in the model. One of the things I feel like we do really help people do is just get a clearer picture of like, hey, what do the next 3, 6, 12, you know, 24 months look like for my company? What is my runway? When am I going to run out of money? What do I need to do about that? Can I afford to give everybody a raise, or can I afford to max out my benefits plan or whatever that is? It's like, you can make those assessments more easily. You know, if you have a financial model that actually makes sense to you that you can look at and say, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I can offer that, like, Rolls Royce benefits plan and still have 18 months' worth of runway, or maybe I can't [laughs]. And I have to say, "Sorry, guys, you know, like, we're cash-constrained, and this is all we can do for now. But maybe when we raise that next round and when we hit these growth milestones, you know, we can expand that." So yeah, I think it's all, for us, about just, like, helping founders make better decisions, whether they be your decisions around employees and benefits, et cetera, or growth, or fundraising, you know, through the power of, like, financial health and hygiene. VICTORIA: Great. Thank you. I appreciate you letting me bring it all the way back [laughs]. Yeah, let me see. Let me go through my list of questions and see what else we have here. Do you have any questions for me or thoughtbot? STEVEN: Yeah. I mean, so, like, how do you guys think about this kind of stuff? Like, you know, you said thoughtbot's a global company at this point, but the name would imply, you know, a very thoughtful one. So, I'd be curious in y'alls kind of approach to just, like, culture and balance and some of these things that we're talking about kind of, like, straddling that line, you know, between, like, working really hard, which you have to do to build a great company but, you know, being mindful of everything else that life has to offer. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I think thoughtbot, more than any other company I've ever worked for, really emphasizes the value of just, like, people really want you to have a work-life balance and to be able to take time off. And, you know, I think that for a company that does consulting and we're delivering at a certain quality, that means that we're delivering at the quality where if someone needs to take a week off for a vacation, there's enough documentation; there's enough backup support for that service to not be impacted. So, that gives us confidence to be able to take the time off [chuckles], and it also just ends up being a better product for our clients. Like, our team needs to be well-rested. They need to have time to invest in themselves and learning the latest technology, the latest upgrades, contributing to open source, and writing about the problems they're seeing, and contributing back to the community. So, we actually make time every Friday to spend on those types of projects. It's kind of like you were saying before, like, you get as much done in four days as many companies get in five because that time is very highly focused. And then you're getting the benefit of, you know, continually investing in new skills and making sure the people you're working with are at the level that you're paying for [laughs]. STEVEN: Yeah, right. No, that's super cool. That's super cool. VICTORIA: Yeah, and, actually, so we're all remote. We're a fully remote company, and we do offer some in-person events twice a year, so that's been a lot of fun for me. And also, getting to, like, go to conferences like RubyConf and RailsConf and meeting the community has been fantastic. Yeah, you have a lot of value of self-management. So, you have the ability to really adjust your schedule and communicate and work with what meets your needs. It's been really great. STEVEN: Yeah, I love that, too. And we're also a remote company, and I think getting together in person, like you just talked about it, is so important. We can only afford to do it once a year right now as an earlier-stage company. But as amazing as, you know, Zoom and things like this are, it's like, there's not really a perfect replacement for that in-person experience, you know. VICTORIA: I agree, and I also agree that, like, once a year is probably enough [laughter]. That's a great amount of time. Like, it really does help because there are so many ways to build relationships remotely, but sometimes, at least just meeting in person once is enough to be like, oh yeah, like, you build a stronger connection, and I think that's great. Okay. Let me see. What other questions do we have? Final question: is there anything else that you would like to promote? STEVEN: I guess it's my job to say we are a really awesome financial modeling platform and team in general. So, if you are a startup founder or you know a startup founder out there that just could use some help with their financial model, you know, it is definitely something that we'd love to do. And we do a ton of education and a ton of help. We've got a ton of resources that are even freely available as well. So, our role in the market is just to get out there and help folks build great financial models, whether that be on Forecastr or otherwise, and that's kind of the approach that we take to it. And our philosophy is like, if we can get out there and do that, you know, if we can be kind of the go-to resource for folks to build great models regardless, you know, of what that means for them, a rising tide will float all boats, and our boat the most of which, hopefully. So [laughs], if you need a model, I'm your guy. VICTORIA: Thank you so much for sharing that. And I have a fun question for you at the end. What is your favorite hike that you've been on in the last three years or ever, however long you want to go back? [laughs] STEVEN: Well, I would say, you know, I did have the great pleasure this year of returning to the Appalachian Trail to hike the Roan Highlands with a friend of mine who was doing a thru-hike. So, a friend of mine did a southbound thru-hike on the A.T. this year, went from Maine to Georgia. Good friend of mine. And I had not been on the Appalachian Trail since I did a thru-hike in 2017. So, I had not returned to the trail or to that whole community. It's just a very special community. It really is a group of, like, really awesome, eclectic people. And so, yeah, this last year, I got to go down to the Roan Highlands in Tennessee. It's a beautiful, beautiful area of Tennessee and in the Southeast, rolling hills and that kind of thing. And hike, for him, for, like, three or four days and just be a part of his journey. Had a ton of fun, met some awesome people, you know, great nature, and totally destroyed my body because I was not prepared to return to the grueling nature of the Appalachian Trail. So yeah, I'd have to say that one, Victoria. I'd have to say that was my favorite in the last couple of years for sure. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's beautiful there. I've hiked certain parts of it. So, I've heard that obviously the Appalachian Trail, which is the eastern side of the United States, was the earlier trail that was developed because of the dislocation of people over time and that they would create the trail by getting to a peak and then looking to another peak and being like, "Okay, that's where I'm going to go." So, when you say it's grueling, I was, like, a lot of up and down hills. And then what I've heard is that the Pacific Trail on the western part of the United States, they did more of figuring out how to get from place to place with minimizing the elevation change, and so it's a much more, like, sustainable hike. Have you ever heard that? STEVEN: Oh yeah, that is 100% true. In terms of, like, the absolute change in elevation, not, like, the highest elevation and the lowest, just, like, the change up and down, there's twice as much going up and down on the A.T. as there is on the Pacific Crest Trail. And the Pacific Crest Trail is graded for park animals, so it never gets steeper than, like, a 15% grade. So, it's real groovy, you know, on the PCT where you can just get into a groove, and you can just hike and hike and hike and hike for hours, you know, versus the A.T. where you're going straight up, straight down, straight up, straight down, a lot of big movements, very exhausting. I've hiked a good chunk of the PCT and then, obviously, the whole A.T., so I can attest, yes, that is absolutely true. VICTORIA: I feel like there's an analogy behind that and what Forecastr does for you. Like, you'll be able [laughs] to, like, smooth out your hills a little bit more [laughs] with your finances, yeah. STEVEN: [laughs] Oh, I love that. Absolutely. Well, and I've honestly, like, I've often likened, you know, building a company and hiking the Appalachian Trail because it is one of those things where one of the most clarifying things about hiking a long trail is you just have this one monster goal that's, you know, that's months and months ahead of you. But you just got to get up every day, and you just got to grind it out. And every day is grindy, and it's hard, you know, but every day you just get one step closer to this goal. And it's one of the cool things about a trail is that you kind of steep yourself in that one goal, you know, one-track mind. And, you know, like we were saying earlier, there's so much more to life. So, you can't and probably shouldn't do that with your startup. You should continue to invest in other aspects of your life. But maybe while you're within the four walls of your office or when you open up that laptop and get to work on your computer, you know, if you take that kind of similar approach where you got this big goal that's, you know, months or years away but every day you just got to grind it out; you just got to work hard; you got to do what you can to get 1 step closer. And, you know, one day you'll wake up and you'll be like, oh shit, like, I'm [laughs] pretty close, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think there's definitely some similarities to the two experiences. VICTORIA: I appreciate that, yeah. And my team is actually it's more like starting up a business within thoughtbot. So, I'm putting together, like, my three-year plan. It's very exciting. And I think, like, those are the types of things you want to have. It's the high-level goal. Where are we going? [chuckles] Are we on our track to get there? But then day to day, it's like, okay, like, let's get these little actions done that we need to do this week [laughs] to build towards that ultimate goal. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Steven. I really enjoyed our conversation. Is there anything final you want to say? STEVEN: I just want to thank you, Victoria. I think it's a wonderful podcast that you guys put on, and I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and to chat with you. You're lovely to talk to. I enjoyed the conversation as well, and I hope everyone out there did, also. So, let's make it a great 2024. VICTORIA: Thank you so much. Yeah, this is actually my second podcast recording of the year, so very exciting for me. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for joining again. So, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg. And this podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Wes Bos, a full-stack developer, course creator, and podcaster. Wes shares his web development journey, from blogging and creating a successful book on Sublime Text to developing his popular online courses and hosting the Syntax podcast. He talks about the spontaneous start of his teaching career, his approach to creating content that is both approachable and practical, and the importance of making web development accessible to all learners. Wes discusses the evolution of his career, detailing his experiences in teaching at Ladies Learning Code and HackerYou and how he transitioned into selling online courses. He emphasizes the significance of offering quality content in his free and paid courses, ensuring his teachings are relatable and helpful for real-world applications. Wes also delves into the technical aspects of managing his course platform, discussing the benefits of having complete control over his content and the challenges he faces, such as content theft and logistical issues in distributing his popular sticker packs. The conversation shifts to the role of AI in web development, where Wes highlights its impact on coding efficiency and the need for developers to adapt to AI integration in applications. He advises beginners in web development to be wary of over-relying on AI, emphasizing the importance of understanding the fundamentals of coding. The episode concludes with Wes offering advice for content creators in the tech space, stressing the importance of sharing knowledge and its positive impact on the community. He encourages listeners to stay passionate and continuously learn in the ever-evolving field of web development. Wes' Online Courses (https://wesbos.com/courses) Sublime Text Power User Book (https://wesbos.com/sublime-text-book) Syntax Podcast (https://syntax.fm/) Ladies Learning Code (https://www.canadalearningcode.ca/) HackerYou (Now Juno College) (https://junocollege.com/) Follow Wes Bos on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesbos/) or X (https://twitter.com/wesbos). Visit his website: wesbos.com (https://wesbos.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giants Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wes Bos, a Full-Stack Developer, Coursemaker, and Podcaster. Wes, thank you for joining us. WES: Thanks for having me; stoked to be here. VICTORIA: Can you tell me, you know, on top of all of these skills that you have, podcasting, you're making courses; you're also doing development full-time; I heard that you've also picked up a new hobby in making stickers and, like, designing merch for aligning with some of your marketing goals. WES: Yeah. All right. So, my name is Wes Bos. I'm a full-stack developer from Canada, and I do primarily two things: I make web development training courses, and I have a podcast called Syntax in which we release three episodes a week and talk about everything related to HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Node, just web development and things that surround it. WILL: I want to see how you started in those courses. I know a little bit about your story because I remember when I first started in development. I think it's gotten a little better, but I was the only junior at one of the first companies I started at. And I went through a bootcamp and then became a junior. And I was like, how do I develop? Like, how do I get better? And they were like, "Wes Bos, his course. WES: [laughs] WILL: Go to Wes Bos." [laughs] And so, I did that, and it helped me tremendously. But it's interesting. I just want to see how you started. I know some of your background with ladies who code, and I think HackerYou. So yeah, wherever you want to start, bring us into the beginning of Wes Bos. WES: So, I've been a web developer forever, a good chunk of my life. And back in, like, the blogging days, I was doing a lot of posting blog posts and whatnot. And I had a couple of the blog posts do super well. And back in the day, it was like, you get tons of traffic, and you try to, like, seize the moment. Like, oh, there's, like, 50, 000 people on my website right now. Like, how do I, like, take advantage of that? So, what I did was I threw up a quick, little...it was a blog post about Sublime Text, which was the hot, new editor at the time. And I threw up a little thing. I'm like, I'm writing a book about Sublime Text. And I threw up a little sign-up where people could pop their email in and hear a little bit more about it. And I got, like, 2,000 signups for that in a matter of a couple of days. And I thought like, oh, all right, well, now I got to make this thing, you know, like, I just [chuckles] I didn't have any plans to make it. I had kind of been going around in my head, but I decided to write the book. And then as part of the book, I gave a bunch of videos, and I realized I liked the video part a lot better. And it makes a lot of sense to show people what you are doing when you're talking about code and code-related things. So, I came out with a bunch of videos for that as well. People loved the videos, and I thought, oh, let's just keep doing this. So, I made a bunch of free courses, a bunch of paid courses. And kind of at the same time as well, I was teaching at this thing called Ladies Learning Code, which kind of transitioned into a bootcamp that I did the initial content for, which was called HackerYou. And, like, people kept giving me the same feedback into like, I'm not a traditional teacher. I'm just a web developer that has learned on his own and figured things out. And a lot of people said, like, " I really like the way that you explain things. Like, it makes so much sense the way that you explain it." And I figured out that, at least for some people, they really like the way that I explain something, and I will continue to do that. So, that's pretty much how I got into it. It's just explaining how it works in my head, putting it onto video, and putting it out there for web developers to learn from. WILL: Yeah. And that was one of the reasons why I think I was so successful in my career is because there's a...Just learning development is hard; let's be honest. It's just hard. And I would run into people that would honestly just talk over my head, and I was like, I have no idea what you're saying, but okay. But your courses, it was like, oh, okay, I understand that. That makes sense. Like, I can't remember the name of it, but the React beginner course I've been to that one probably three times just because I'm like, it's making sense. And every time, I get more and more and more out of it. So, I can definitely agree that the way you teach your courses it brings it down to earth. Like, I think maybe anybody could pick it up, I would say, because it's like you're talking to them, so yeah. WES: It's really important to me that everything is approachable. And I will often explain things, like, I'm the same as you. There's extremely smart people out there, and they'll just talk at you about all of these things. And it's just like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Those words don't make any sense to me. And it's not that I dumb it down. It's just like, the way that it makes sense in my brain is not the same way that they're talking. So, the way that I explain it is just how it makes sense to me, and people tend to really enjoy that type of thing. And I really hope that I can make a lot of this web development stuff approachable. And sometimes it's not the, like, exact perfect explanation of how something really works, the explanation you need to understand how these pieces fit together and when you would actually use something. That's the other part of a lot of the stuff that I teach as well is that I have this big thing on one of my course websites, which is like, no foo bar baz. Because when you're learning to code, you stumble across all these foo bar baz where people are making functions and passing the values in, and they're called meta-syntactic variables. The whole idea is that because foo bar baz mean nothing, you're able to take it out of context and focus on what is happening, and I'm quite the opposite. Show me a real example of a bunch of dogs, or a sandwich, or a button that you can click on that fetches data. And I always try to make my examples something that is real world enough that you could understand, okay, I see where this might be used rather than something in isolation because I find that myself very frustrating. VICTORIA: What's one of your favorite examples or, like, example scenarios that you use when you're designing a code problem to teach people? WES: It really comes down to, like, what you're teaching, but the ongoing joke on the podcast that we have is that I always use sandwiches because a sandwich is a great metaphor for a lot of things in life. So, for example, when we talk about streaming versus buffering, and we talk about, like, you're eating the sandwich as it's coming into your house versus you're cutting it into pieces and eating it. Or in my upcoming TypeScript course, I have a bunch of examples where there can be multiple types of food, and a sandwich can be one of them, and a pizza can be another one. And that kind of shows how to use generics, right? Like, you might have a database entry that is a food entry, but you want to further that to be a sandwich or a pizza, and not all of them are that simple, right? Like, a lot of them are also just related to web development, which is like, here's buttons that you need to click on, and here's data that you need to fetch, and here's a database schema that needs to happen. And if that's the case, I try to, like, make it real world enough where you can say, okay, I understand that this is how it works. Now, how can I apply that to my own idea? Because often, people learning to code have their own ideas. They just want to make something to solve their own problems. WILL: How did you learn to code? Because I don't think you did a traditional route. I remember on one of your podcasts, you said your dad was in IT, but I don't think you went to a traditional route. So, how did you learn to code? WES: It's a really long story. But the story is that I got into computers at an early age. I got into designing T-shirts and CD art for a lot of, like, hardcore bands in the music scene when I was in high school, and that parlayed into Myspace. Myspace taught me CSS. And then I've always been, like, fairly entrepreneurial, so that I parlayed into running my own business, making websites. And I've just been at it for so long that I've sort of taught myself all the pieces that I need over the years. I do have a degree in what's called business technology management, which is, it's a business degree but no coding or things involved. It was more, like, higher level. There was some, like, networking IP addresses, and then there was a lot more, like, business management teams, procurement, SAP, things like that, so none of the web development stuff I have learned comes from that degree. It's all self-taught. VICTORIA: So, you found that you had the skill around explaining web development concepts, and then that led to you creating your own business and having your own, like, coursework out there and everything through your podcast. So, maybe you could share a little bit what that journey has been like. WES: It's been a very long journey. I'm not sure which part you want to hear about, but I've been selling courses for probably about nine years. And I have sold quite a bit because I also offer about half of them for free. So, I have a bunch of free ones where people take it, and they're like, "Oh, this is amazing. I'm going to take the paid one that he has as well." And I spend a lot of time making sure that the free ones and the paid ones are the same quality. Like, it's not just some crappy 10-minute course that I'm using as a lead magnet to get you in the door. Like, they're actually pretty good. So, it's been really fun. Like, I've built a whole course platform that sells all of my courses, and you can view them and stream them, and there's invoicing and checkouts built into it. So, like now, if somebody wants to get into selling courses, there's lots of options out there where you can sign up for some SaaS and upload your course, and you're up and running. But at the time when I had done it, there was nothing like that out there, so I had to build my own whole course platform. And I've really enjoyed working on that over the years and upgrading it, and changing it, and rewriting, and adding features to it. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's really interesting. I like that you kept the quality the same on the free and the paid versions. That's a really interesting, I think, like, a reflection of your own values. And then, I'm curious: now that there are other hosting options out there, is there anything that would make you decide to switch to one of those platforms? Because it also sounds like you're getting a lot of enjoyment about managing the one you have yourself, and there might be some other benefits to that. WES: Yeah, probably not. First, because they take a cut, and a lot of these course platforms are not there to promote your business. They're there to promote their own business. And it's the same thing with YouTube. When your YouTube video ends, what does YouTube recommend? They usually recommend what you think you're going to watch, which is sometimes somebody else's video, right? And not having full control over how the courses are sold and consumed, to me, can be a little bit frustrating because you can't do different ideas that you have. So, like, one of the ideas I had early on is I was getting lots of email from people in different countries, you know, in Argentina, and in Brazil, and in India. And they say, "Hey, like, I would love to take your course, but the cost of the course is a day, a week's wages, and that's way too expensive for me." So, I implemented this thing called parity purchasing power. I didn't come up with the economic concept of it, but I was the first person to offer different prices based on the country that the user was coming from. And, A, that's a cool thing to do for people, and B, it helps sales tremendously. And if I was using some course platform, some of the course platforms now have that in place; it's table stakes, right? But at the time, I don't think I would have done as well if I hadn't coded that in myself. So, having full control over absolutely everything is really important to me. And also, like, nobody wants a teacher who doesn't actually build stuff, you know? No one wants to learn from the guy who just, like, skimmed the docs and came up with a crappy, little example. Like, you want to learn from people who are daily writing code and building real-world applications that, like, I have to support my family on this application, you know, it's pretty important, and it's pretty real world. WILL: Yeah, and just following you, I think...and I don't know if you would describe yourself like that, but I think you're, like, a tinkerer. Like, you just...some of the ideas you have is just like, let me just try it out and see if it works. And so, that's amazing that you're able to do that. Where does that side come from? Was it from your dad being in IT, or where did that come from? WES: Probably. Apart from growing up and seeing my dad just fix stuff and do stuff, but I'm just a constantly curious and hungry guy. And I absolutely love dipping into different tech and not even just tech but, like, I built this whole recording studio that's soundproofed. I built the whole thing myself just because I love to learn new things and to dive deep and learn how everything works. And I think a lot of developers very easily burn out. And I always like to say, like, my competitive advantage is not burning out. So, I'm very cognizant of that might happen at some point. And part of the cure for me is I need to be excited about this type of stuff, and I need to be using it. And being able to build new things, and dip into tech, and learn constantly is what keeps me excited and motivated about web development. WILL: Wow. So, you say you built your office. So, you built the entire, like, from concrete up? WES: Not concrete up. So, this was like a...I'm in a basement right now, and I put up some walls. And I talked to a bunch of sound engineers about soundproofing. So, the whole ceiling is not mechanically fastened to the actual ceiling. It's like kind of, like, a floating ceiling, which is pretty cool. And then there's soundproofing material in the walls and outside the walls, and special drywall, and all kinds of interesting stuff to make it sound as good as possible and be as quiet as possible in here because I have three kids. WILL: [laughs] I totally understand the three kids... WES: [laughs] WILL: And the noise that that brings. So, that's amazing. And I think you bring up something that we don't talk about enough in development is that mental health side. Like, just trying to figure out, what do you like to do outside of your computer, away from your computer? So, that's neat that you're working on that, and that that's probably why you haven't burnt out compared to other people. But yeah, kudos to you. That's yeah, that's pretty interesting that you have hobbies outside of that. WES: Yeah, I find that pretty important to sort of keep that balance. Otherwise, if you're doing it day in, day out, especially if you're working on the same thing...like, another benefit I have is I'm always dipping into new stuff, and that keeps it really interesting. But there's plenty of other creators out there that go too hard, and they go 24/7 on it, and then you don't hear from them for six months. And it's because they got burnt out on it, which is very scary to me that that might happen to me at some point. So, I try...I don't know if I've got it figured out, but I try to combat that as much as possible. VICTORIA: And I'm wondering how you balance just that need to create content because it seems to me that web development is constantly changing, right? And so, content that you created a year ago, maybe you got to go back and update everything. So, how do you manage that and keep your content fresh with all the ongoing changes in web development? WES: Yeah, unfortunately, sometimes it means you just have to deprecate content, or you say, "Hey, this is not the content you should be taking right now," because some of the courses take four or five months to record, and after a year or two, they can be out of date. So, I'll mark them as deprecated if they need to be. But I'm just kind of always working on something new, both with my courses as well as, like, the podcast. We always just have...that's the kind of the benefit of the job as well is that, like, yeah, it changes all the time, but there's always new stuff to talk about. As somebody who makes a living explaining how new things work, it's kind of nice. VICTORIA: That's great. You got a good pipeline of content to talk about [laughs] and to update for, so that's great. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: You know, you're creating this content for web developers, and you have this kind of global audience now. What's on the horizon for you? What are you planning for in the next couple of months or in the next five years? WES: Yeah, next couple of months, I have a TypeScript course I've been working on for over a year now. I've been sort of cranking on it, and that will be out. And then we have a podcast that we are going to be launching a video version of pretty soon, which I'm pretty excited about. We've been kind of going pretty hard. We just hired a producer. We've been going pretty hard on, like, the social clips type of thing. So, that's coming down the pipeline as well. And five years, I have no idea. I think I always say, like, a five-year plan is a five-year guess. You know, like, you can plan ahead for six months, a year, and have some good goals. But in web development, like, a year ago, AI, maybe a year, like, 13 months ago, the AI stuff was nothing but a murmur, right? And now, the AI stuff is a good chunk of what I talk about and what I teach. So, you just kind of got to react to it; otherwise, if you have a five-year plan, then you're not going to be able to catch these new things that pop up. WILL: How do you pick? Because I know you said you have a TypeScript course coming out. How do you pick new topics to talk about? Because there are so many. There's testing you can talk about. There's React Native. There are so many areas you can go to. How do you pick and choose that? WES: It's actually pretty easy because it's what I'm excited about and what I want to tell people and teach people, like, what they should be learning. So, like, every single one of my courses is tech that I myself am using and that I want to help teach other people, so it's pretty straightforward. It's not like I have some sort of, like, stats of, like, what is the most popular framework out there, and, like, obviously, that does play into it like a Next.js course. I've used Next.js in a couple of my courses. I'll probably do another Next.js course. But that's both because I enjoy it and because it's stable enough and popular enough that people would want to buy it. I'm not going to be creating a Java course or a Rust course or something like that because I know that's popular right now, and it would probably sell well. It's just not something I know enough about, or I'm excited about. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm curious to go back to your comment about AI and just ask you, how are you talking about it in your courses? What are, like, the things you think it's really important for developers to know right now about AI and web development? WES: There's kind of, like, two parts to it. First, there's the part of, like, using AI to help you code. So, there's all these, like, coding assistants that get in your editor, and you can send them your code, and it can help you decipher it, and it can scaffold out code. Those things are really, really good. And I know a lot of developers are hesitant about it because, like, "Who knows what kind of code it's generating? And you still have to be able to understand it. And I prefer to write it by hand." And that's a valid opinion, but, like, I don't think that that's going forward. And I think that this AI stuff is making us so much more efficient in writing code that if you're not picking it up, I think that you might be at a little bit of a disadvantage there. So, there's that [SP] hunk. And then there's also the, like, we're going to have to start implementing this stuff into the apps that we build, and whether it's just pinging in an AI service and getting data back or creating a bunch of embeddings so you can have related, like, for a blog post or for a podcast, we want related podcasts. Or if you want to use AI to, like...group tagging on a blog is a really annoying thing. Nobody uses tags well enough. But, like, what if the tags could just be automatically generated based on the words in the post or the words that we speak on the podcast? So, there's just, like, so many, like, new features that will make it better. Your product is going to be better for your end user. And even starting now and, like, when those features are not enabled, like, it's not, like, necessarily an AI feature, but it's like, wow, I wish this had better grouping of podcasts, or I wish that you had better tagging, or that your search is not very good because it's just a text match whereas there's a lot more depth that could be added with AI. So, integrating AI into our websites and our applications that we're building is going to become just another skill that you, as a web developer, have. VICTORIA: No, I think that's a really interesting take on it. And I'm curious if you've also seen AI used to even, like, suggest better standards for code or certain design patterns and, like, tools that help you, like what you said, kind of get better at coding faster. WES: That's the thing people are talking about. Like, if you're learning to code, should you use these types of things? Because, like, you can just hit Tab a couple of times, and it might look good. And it certainly can bite you. Especially if you need to be able to go back and edit that code to fix it, you need to understand how it works, so there's that part of it. But, man, does it make you faster for doing a lot of common things that you will be doing over again. It just really helps you out, so I'm a big fan of it. I have lots of complaints about it as well, but I think it's here to stay. VICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah, it's here to stay. And I've talked to founders who are really excited about it, and maybe they weren't, you know, they don't have years and years of React development experience, but they know the functions that their app needs to do. And they're able to use coding prompts and tools to kind of create at least a minimal product of what they want to build, so it's really exciting. WILL: I totally agree with AI because I use some, especially with the coding, and it makes it so much faster, but I do think you still have to know what you're doing. Because I think you posted on it, like, in one of the coding helpers that I use in VS Code, it still doesn't know how to close out the end of the line. You have these extra backticks or whatever. And it is like, so, as a new developer, you still have to understand your code, or that's going to drive you crazy every time that you use it [chuckles]. WES: Yeah, that's extremely frustrating, the backticks. I've had an issue open on GitHub Copilot for about a year now. They've said they fixed it, and a couple of little situations, it's been fixed. But I would love to, like, talk to somebody about, like, the actual issue because if you give the broken code back to the AI and say, "Fix it," it fixes it. So [laughs], it knows what's wrong. I just, I don't know. Yeah, you still have to know these things. WILL: You taught at Ladies Learning Code and then HackerYou. Did that help you overcome the imposter syndrome of teaching? I don't know if you knew how big your courses were going to become. But what did the imposter syndrome look like for you during that time, or did you even have it? WES: To a certain point, yeah. I think everybody has imposter syndrome, and that's good. Because if you're so confident that you're so amazing and blessed at this specific thing, then your head is probably too big, and [chuckles] you probably don't know what you don't know. But with a lot of my stuff, I'll often just ask people who know better than me. Like, that's a big part of what it is, is you can just consult experts or like, "Hey, what do you think about this?" Or "Is this the best approach?" Or "Here's my code. Do you mind running through it really quickly and see if there's anything that sticks out?" People are often, like, you can pay them, or people are often willing to help, so there's that. And like, also, you have to just know that this is for the people who enjoy it. Like, I'm not making courses for people who are better developers than I am. I'm making courses for people who like the way that I explain specific things. And then, like, another thing that probably really helped me is that I have, like, a 100% money back, no time limit on it. And that just makes me feel good about like, hey, like, if this is not actually good, if you do not think that this is good, or if you just don't jive with the way that I explain things, no sweat, you know, here's your money back. You keep going. And that makes me feel a lot better because it's not like I'm trying to fleece somebody for money and trick them into buying the course. Like, I feel pretty good about it, and if you feel pretty good about it, then we're both happy. WILL: Yeah, that's amazing because I feel like there's certain things that I would love to get started, but that imposter syndrome and also, like, the opinionated developers out there, like, you know what we are talking about. But it just seems like it would be hard to start with that. So, that's why I asked that question. WES: Yeah, I've learned that, like, a lot of these people that have these extremely harsh opinions are, A, they lack all the social skills, so there's something with them that they just don't have it. And you have to understand that that's just something that they have, and they may not be trying to be a jerk. That's just kind of the way they are. And if people are overly opinionated, it's usually because they're, like, covering for their own insecurity of what they want, not always. But a lot of times, I feel pretty good about people telling me, "Oh, you could do it this way," or "No, why are you doing it this way?" Like, I feel pretty confident in my skillset, but I also am always willing to learn and always willing to be corrected and learn new tips and techniques because that's how you get better. So, the people that are constantly being angry online and throwing around opinions and saying things are garbage, that's very scary for beginners because they think, oh, like, am I learning the wrong thing? I don't want to waste my time here. Like, am I going to lose my job if I don't learn it? And the reality is it's not that cut and dry, you know, it's a lot more easygoing. So, I try to convey that as well. And I don't put too much into these silly people who get really angry at semicolons or something silly like that. WILL: That's good advice. That's good advice. Because I think there's been some stuff that I want to do, that's held me back. So, that's really good advice. I appreciate it. WES: Yeah, just do it, like, you never know. Like, if someone's calling you out for putting yourself out there, like, that's a really big jerk thing to do. And I've called people out as well. Like, I don't get it as much anymore, and that probably has to do something with the fact that I've sort of established myself. But several times in the early days, people would be, like, mean. And I would just be like, "Hey, like, just call people out, like, nicely, but, like, hey, you don't have to be mean about it. I'm just trying to share what I've learned here." And that usually gets them. VICTORIA: Yeah. It's like, what are your intentions with providing this feedback to me right now? Like, are you trying to help? [laughs] Because it doesn't really feel that way. No, I appreciate that. And, you know, I'm also...part of thoughbot we've traditionally put out a lot of trainings, a lot of, you know, Upcase things on Ruby on Rails. And with my team, I'm looking at putting together some workshops around site reliability engineering and things that would be helpful for developers to learn how to instrument their code. So, speaking of advice that you would give to maybe any engineer or any developer who's looking to share their expertise, or put together a course, or even a blog post about what they're learning, like, what would you advise someone who's trying to create content like that? WES: Put it out there. When I released my Sublime textbook, keep in mind, a book about Sublime Text that's a pretty niche thing, there was already two books out there on that exact topic. And a couple of times, I was like, is anyone going to want this? There's already one of them out there. Should I even write this blog post? There's 70 out there. And just keep in mind that, like, the way that you explain it or the specific issue that you hit or whatever, it might be the way that really clicks for somebody else. So, I always tell people just put it out there. You never know what is going to come of it. It's likely going to be a net positive for the web development world in general. So, don't ever feel that you shouldn't put yourself out there because you might not know absolutely everything about it. Just share what you know. That's how we get better. VICTORIA: Yeah, I had a friend many years ago who we used to organize Women Who Code, and she said, "Do you think anyone would really be interested in, like, a cloud series of these topics?" And we're like, "Oh, maybe not." In the first event we had around Cloud for Women Who Code, I think, like, 30 people showed up. So yeah, put it out there, see who's interested, and go from there. That's great advice. WES: Yeah. On the same topic, is like, 'Will somebody want this?' is a huge question. People always come to me and they say, "Hey, do you think if I make a course on X, Y, and Z, will people buy it?" Or they'll put out a tweet that says, "Hey, would you buy this, or would you attend this?" And everybody's always like, "Yes, yes, yes," just trying to be supportive. But at the end of the day, you have to test these things by actually putting things out there. So, for me, how did I know the first thing I wanted to do was Sublime Text? It's because I put out blog posts on probably 20 different topics, and those were the posts that just hit really well, and they really resonated with people. So, like, if you're trying to understand, like, will it work? You can test those things very easily by putting a YouTube video up, putting a couple of TikToks up, write a blog post, put a couple of tweets up. And, eventually, when you put out enough content, you're going to start to see a trend in a specific area, and that will give you a little bit of guidance as to what it is you should pursue. WILL: That's great advice. Have you had any hurdles through your journey of online courses and the podcast, releasing podcasts? WES: I feel like I'm always, like, course-correcting. I've never had, like, a flop. And, like, I've had courses I've shelved. Early on, after Sublime Text, I was like, I'm going to do a gulp course, which was, like, a build tool for JavaScript. And then webpack started to get a little bit more popular, and I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll just make a tooling course in general, but I was like, ah, that's kind of way too big. And after, like, working on it for a couple of weeks, I was like, you know what? Like, I'm going to scrap this because I don't think that this is it, you know? So, just kind of always listening, always feedback, and course correcting is probably my biggest advice there for the hurdles. There's stuff that comes up, like people stealing the courses. And, like, I had early access to one of my courses once, and somebody bought it with a stolen credit card and then put it up online. And, like, that's incredibly deflating because now there's your unfinished course out there before people could even buy it. And people will spam you and run DDoS attacks on you and lots of stuff like that, where people are just...they see that. And that's always really frustrating, but you kind of roll with the punches and kind of keep working on it. WILL: Wow. That's interesting. So, someone bought the course with a stolen credit card, and they released it early to the public? WES: Yeah. I don't know if I should say this or not, but there's a very large Russian website that is...literally, they have a paid membership, and the whole point is that you pay for the membership, and you get access to every course ever. Sometimes, they use paid cards, and sometimes it's stolen cards. WILL: Oh, wow. WES: They just buy every course by every creator, and they put it up on this thing. And you can get it for free for the first, like, three months, and then it goes under their paid thing. And that stuff was really frustrating to me at first, but I've learned just to...the web development community is incredibly supportive, and I have nothing to complain about, really. People who do want to support you will support you. WILL: That's neat. That's really neat. VICTORIA: Yeah. And speaking of the web development community, are there events or conferences you go to or different, like, places where you really connect to the web development community? WES: Yeah. Conferences are fantastic. I really enjoy that those are back. So, React Miami is coming up. It's going to be a really fun one. But I go to a couple of conferences a year, and I usually speak at them. We also do meetups every now and then with Syntax where we'll rent out a bar and get a bunch of merch and stickers and just kind of chit-chat with everybody. That's honestly, my favorite is just going to a meetup where there's no talks or anything. It's just a bunch of interesting people in a room, and you get to talk with all kinds of cool people. VICTORIA: That's fun, yeah. I've been organizing a monthly CTO lunch down here in San Diego, and it's like, we just get together and have lunch and, like, talk about different stuff [laughs]. WES: Love it. VICTORIA: And it's really great. I used to organize those meetups with, like, two speakers, and then there was pizza and drinks and all that stuff to coordinate. And it's a lot easier just to kind of get everyone together and talk, which is what most people want anyways [laughs]. WES: I'm always bummed when you go to a conference and the, like, after party has, like, a band or, like, music is bumping. It's like, I just want a quiet room with some drinks that I can talk to people and have a good conversation, you know. VICTORIA: Yeah, I go to a lot of events, a lot of conferences, a lot of events. I see a lot of different types of stickers and design and anything like that. So, I thought it might be fun to ask you about that. Like, you know, I don't know if you can share us a link of what your stickers look like. Or how do you make it fun and interesting for you to have that kind of thing to hand out? WES: Once a year, once a year and a half, I make these sticker packs, and they have, I don't know, 15 or so stickers in it, various web development things. And it's a pretty big production because I get a lot of them done. So, the last time I sold 11,000 packages of them, and I sell them for five bucks shipped anywhere in the world. And it's, like, a huge logistical hurdle to try to make that happen because there's so much to it. But it's really fun for me because I'm able to do something that is fun. A lot of people aren't able to go to conferences and get the stickers, and they want that. They want to feel part of a community, and everybody loves getting a pack of stickers. So, I've been doing that for probably seven years now. Just right now, I'm just doing a little bit of research into what the next pack is going to look like and some new materials that have hit the sticker world [laughs], so it's pretty fun. The website is bos.af with, like, bos.af. That might not work anymore. I got note that the people who I registered the dot AF domain name from have lost contact with the Afghanistan domain authorities. So, it's possible I might just lose that domain name, which is a bit of a bummer because that's a really cool domain name, but that's where I sell them once a year. And, usually, they're only for sale for about a week, and then they're done selling, and I do the whole shipping thing around the world. VICTORIA: Wow. I did not think you were going to say, "Sold 11,000" sticker packs. That's really impressive [laughs]. WES: Yeah, it's crazy. It's almost 200,000 stickers if you think about it. VICTORIA: That's, like, a major production. I bet when you got into web development, you didn't think you'd also have a side hustle making stickers off of it [laughs]. WES: Yeah, it's crazy. Like, I was, like, sending them out with stamps, and it's just like, I was holding in one single hand, like, $4,000 worth of stamps. It's crazy to think. VICTORIA: I can imagine going into the post office and being like, "I need $4,000 worth of stamps [laughs]," but that's great. WES: The first time I just started dumping them into mail, I would cross the border because I'm in Canada, and the USPS is much cheaper. So, we would just cross the border, and then we just dumped them into mailboxes. And it was okay. But they were like, "Hey, like, next time, just, like, bring it to the post office, and, like, we have processes for this much mail." I don't mail them out of the U.S. anymore because there's some weird stuff around crossing the border. You have to do all this crazy stuff. But it's pretty crazy buying that many stamps. They usually look at you funny when you go to the store and say, "Hey, I need this many stamps." [laughter] VICTORIA: They're like, "Well, what are you doing?" [laughs] Well, great. I think, let's see, we're coming up at the end of our time here. So, are there any final takeaways for our listeners today? WES: Check me out. I'm at wesbos.com; podcast is at syntax.fm if you want to give it a listen. We post three times a week. And I just encourage everyone keep learning, keep excited about web development because it's a pretty cool industry. VICTORIA: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today. I really enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me on X @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Wendy Lawson is the Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, a company offering online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. She explains her background in chronic disease epidemiology, her dedication to helping those with lung disease, and highlights the challenges in making lung rehabilitation accessible and effective, especially in remote or rural areas. The pandemic created a demand for online medical services, and Exhale took the opportunity to address this need by leveraging technology to provide remote services to those who needed them most. Exhale Lung Rehabilitation (https://joinexhale.com/home) Follow Exhale Lung Rehabilitation on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Joinexhale), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/join.exhale/), or X (https://twitter.com/join_exhale). Follow Wendy Lawson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendylawson-joinexhale/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Wendy Lawson, Founder and CEO of Exhale Lung Rehabilitation, which provides online lung rehabilitation and remote therapeutic monitoring services. Wendy, thank you for joining us. WENDY: Thank you so much for having me. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And we like to start the show with a little warm-up introduction about ourselves. Is there anything exciting happening in your life recently that you'd like to share with our audience? WENDY: You know, I think the biggest event that has happened for my husband and I and our son and daughter is the marriage of our daughter a couple of weekends ago. So, we're really coming down off of all of the events that surrounded that wedding, and we're so excited for them to start their new life. VICTORIA: That sounds like a big activity, lots of family life all happening at a time when you are also founder and CEO. So, within that time for your wedding, did you make time or have to learn any new skills for putting on these events? WENDY: You know, it was really interesting. I did have to do a couple of skills. First of all, planning a wedding is just madness. I knew that it was going to be a big task, but after really having hands on and doing it, it was a lot. It was really fun to learn some new things. And one of the new things that I learned is really flower arrangements. I did some flower arrangements for some of the tables in a couple of the events that surrounded the wedding. And so, that was really fun, new skill. I love to learn new things. That was enlightening and fun. And I'm glad I don't have to do that as a job. [laughter] VICTORIA: Yeah, so I'm curious, how did you approach learning this new skill? What was your method? WENDY: My entire life I've loved to learn new things. And I probably approach each of those the same way, and that is get a vision for what I want, or what I want to learn, or what I want it to look like, and then do some research, find people who have done it themselves. Ask advice. Of course, YouTube is fantastic now for things like DIY. So, I definitely went to YouTube and found some experts and watched what they did and tried to mimic it, and so, I'm not sure that I got it as well as they did. But it was certainly enlightening and a lot of fun to learn. VICTORIA: I appreciate that being a lifelong learner, being excited and loving to learn new things. How has that value of loving to learn new things and being a lifelong learner served you as founder and CEO at Exhale? WENDY: Being a lifelong learner is something that, I think, started early for me, not just in my career but in my life. I've loved to learn new things. Being a founder comes with lots of unexpected pivots and turns. And I think being open and available to learn new things really furthers your business as a founder and ensures that your business is placed in a position where if you need to pivot, you can learn something new, pivot in that direction, and move on. So, I think learning not just as a founder but in any profession that you do is really a key to success for a long and successful career. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm going to ask you about your pivots. But first, tell me just how did it all get started? So, what led you to decide to start Exhale? WENDY: Yeah, well, I have a background...my graduate degree is in chronic disease epidemiology. I'm a registered respiratory therapist. I'm also a board member for the National Board of the American Lung Association. And I have really dedicated my life to dealing with those with lung disease. It is interesting in the clinical realm that you cross things that, scientifically, we know are beneficial to individuals with certain diseases. However, getting that thing out to the general population is challenging, and lung rehabilitation is one of those things. We've known for a very long time that lung rehabilitation helps people with lung disease live a more successful life and a more enjoyable life and with less symptoms. But the availability of lung rehabilitation to people that really need it is few and far between. If you live in a big city, you usually can find an in-person rehabilitation program, but due to constraints with insurance not approving people until late stages or the inability of a program to get people in because they have long waiting lists, it really has been a struggle for physicians, for clinicians, for individuals with lung disease to actually find a program and do it. And so, I really wanted to solve that problem, solve the problem of the accessibility, availability, affordability of lung rehabilitation because it's so important to people with lung disease. So, really how I started is identifying the problem of here's a big problem. We can't seem to get people effectively into lung rehabilitation. So, why don't we take use of technology and create a program that is all online and available to a person in their home, on their timeline, no matter where they live? If they live in a rural community and don't have access to a big city hospital, that it's available to them. VICTORIA: Wow, that's a really fascinating story about your background and how you discovered this problem. And, of course, you know, looking at the timeline, to me, you know, September 2020 is when you're founded. Certainly, something was happening in the world that created an even larger need for lung rehabilitation than before, right? WENDY: Yeah, I had identified the problem probably...a couple of years before that; I thought, there's got to be a way, you know, there's got to be a way that we can solve this issue of people not having access. Really, the perfect storm of people being cooped up inside—they were quarantined; people couldn't get out. All of the sudden, technology was really our means to be doing a lot of things, and seeing our physicians was one of those things. Individuals who did not have faith in online technology, or seeing physicians virtually, or going to programs virtually, all of a sudden, those fears were gone because that was really the way that you had to do things in 2020. It was the majority of the way that we talked with our loved ones. It was how we interacted with individuals, whether it was work or medical, lots of different things. And so, I really felt like the timing was right to go ahead and pull the trigger on this. And let's see if we can find a way...now that people are using technology in a very different way than they were two years prior to that, let's see if we can make this work and get this out to people who need it. And at the same time, there was a major pandemic with a viral illness that affected the lungs specifically. And so, we were going to have that many more patients that were going to need pulmonary rehabilitation on the flip side of being ill and coming out of this pandemic. So, I think it was, like I said, a perfect storm of individuals in the community receiving technology in a positive manner and then also having a pandemic that affected people with lung disease. VICTORIA: Wow, that's incredible. So, you already had identified a problem about lack of access to rehabilitation, especially in rural areas. And if people don't know that, you know, hospitals are really, even more, and so as time goes by, getting around major metropolitan areas, so people don't have access to hospitals or doctors in rural areas. And those are also probably the people who maybe need more lung rehabilitation. And then the perfect storm happened, and the pandemic and everything. It became not only the way of doing business and care–a very acceptable way of doing medical care, and also very critical in terms of, like, our national health infrastructure. WENDY: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, one other component that really propelled me into going ahead and founding this company and then figuring out a way for technology to aid us was that individual programs, even if you did live close to a program, the pandemic shut those programs down completely. Things like cardiac rehab, pulmonary rehab, were all stopped because you could not put a large amount of people in a small space together, working out, breathing hard, learning in classroom environments when they were also immunocompromised. So, the risk to the patient was very high. And so, those programs, even if you did live close to a program, in 2020, they were completely shut down. And due to individual struggles of hospitals as hospitals opened back up, financial struggles, clinical struggles on having enough staffing is still a really big problem in the medical community. And so, a lot of pulmonary rehabs did not come back, even if you lived in a large city. So, there are some rehabs that are opening back up now, but there's still that initial problem that we had, even before the pandemic, of there were not enough programs. Only about 2% of the population that can use pulmonary rehab ever got to a pulmonary rehab. And then we shut some down, and it became even worse. So, we estimate now that it's less than 2% that actually get to a pulmonary rehab if they have lung disease, and certainly, because so many more people have lung disease now on this side of the pandemic. VICTORIA: Wow, yeah. That's a really incredible story, so thank you so much for sharing that. I'm curious now to get into, like, you made the decision. You found the problem. You started the company. What were some early pivots you had to make, and what surprised you about it early in the process? WENDY: I put together a team of...I have a couple of physicians that are intensivists and focused on lung disease, a pharmacist, a couple of respiratory therapists, physical therapists, Yoga expert, nurse practitioner. So, my whole team really got together, and we decided, okay, we have to make this as close to in-person rehab as humanly possible. And the problem initially in getting pulmonary rehab out to people, is that anyone that has attempted it before did not have that initial assessment in the program that was really based on algorithms that gave them a personalized experience so that the yoga classes or the strength training classes, or the breathing classes were specific to, one, their lung disease, because there are 26, 7 different lung diseases, and, two, that was very specific to their exercise tolerance of themselves and their lung disease. Some people are on oxygen 24/7 and can't make it from the bathroom to the kitchen without sitting down in between and catching their breath. And then, other people with lung disease they can walk a mile. So, how do you make sure that the program is based on you and you're really gaining those strides based on your exercise tolerance? So, that was probably the biggest hurdle that we had to make or really decisions surrounding that, like, how do we do this? And so, creating proprietary algorithms that were then going to help us was a daunting task. It began as a bunch of sticky notes on my office wall and me staring at it going, okay, how do we figure this out? I know we can figure this out. And just having iterations of that algorithm until I got it right. The next hurdle for me was really how technology could be used to create this experience that was beneficial to the users and the clients and also that we could be proud of as clinicians because we knew that it was providing solid advice and goals, care plans for those individuals that needed it. I came from a clinical background. And so, I was not privy to all of what technology could do. And so, I had to really go out and research, how do we incorporate these things? And how do I envision, you know, the program working and maneuvering around? I initially hired a company that I thought I was communicating well what I wanted. And they were developers, so they did what I asked, but it was not scalable. And so, me I think that combination of maybe I didn't hire the right company. And then, the second thing was me not really being able to speak the technology terms and understand everything that was available so that I could outline it a little bit better. Created a product that I wasn't proud of and I knew was not scalable. And so, we had to really pivot and start again, hire a new company, and really sit down with them and say, "Okay, I want you to understand my sticky notes on my office wall. And let's really get this down before we begin to build." So, I would say probably that was my first big pivot moment. And the ups and downs of being a founder are endless. And that was definitely one of those, like, really high points where we're, okay, you know, we're at a point where I believe we can launch and then the low of realizing it is not what I wanted it to be. So, I think that was the first one. VICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that if the first product you build is something you're not proud of, then you're at least doing it right. You got something out there [laughs]. And you probably learned so much from that process, and it sounds like you applied those learnings to your next phase of the project. And now you've built something that you are proud of. WENDY: Yeah. I think a founder will continue no matter...and technology certainly is this. But I think this applies to really any business, whether it's a brick-and-mortar or anything online business. I believe that you are constantly improving. You're constantly thinking of, you know, what's version 2 going to look like? What's version 3 going to look like? What's version 25 going to look like? It's definitely a work in progress. And, you know, having something that you're very proud of, that you worked hard on, and collaborated, and really researched a lot I think that's where we are right now. We're very proud of...I am very proud of this program. And we're seeing some fantastic results. And people who have very severe lung disease and, all of a sudden, they can sit in the floor and play with their grandchildren, or they can go out and get the mail. Just to walk to the end of the block was a big deal for them but now they can do that. I hear stories all the time. Our clients love to talk to us about, "Hey, guess what I did?" And I love to hear those stories because it means what we created did the job that we created it for. And so, that's very satisfying. It doesn't mean that we won't do pivoting in the future. We certainly will. But as we see those roadblocks, or as we see the hurdles that we have to cross to make sure that this program stays true to what we want it to be, we certainly will find a way over, around, or through those roadblocks to make that happen. VICTORIA: You can hear your commitment to your mission and your drive to solve this problem in the way that you talk about it and the iterations that you're willing to keep solving it. And you mentioned that, you know, one of the issues you saw in the first iteration was about scaling. So, I was wondering if you could share more about that. Like, what did you see that made you think, oh, this isn't going to scale? Was it a technical issue? Was it the algorithm the way it was working? Or was there something else that made you think, oh, we got to redo this whole thing? [laughs] WENDY: Yeah, you know, the algorithm was working great, fantastic. It places individuals in classes that they need to be. It's very beneficial. The beta tests on our clients were actually coming out with individuals that were at least doubling their strength in a 12-week period of time, which is really unheard of. Usually, you shoot for 20 to 25% increase in their strength and ability to do things. And so, early on, we were so excited because we thought this is working. And coming out of the gates, out of our beta tests, we thought it is doing clinically what we want it to do. Now, what we saw was that the process was time-consuming on our side, on the business side, so ensuring that those clients that we looked at what they were doing, that we made sure and contacted them, and did those things. Our system was very labor-intensive. So, to get into the system and actually see what an individual person was doing, was difficult. We didn't have auto alerts that alerted our team, "Hey, this person is struggling today and probably needs a call." So, those types of things were what we really decided this is not going to be scalable. And they were not easy fixes in the system that we had created. And so, that's really why we chose to pivot and go a different direction because there was just no way to scale it because each individual client was taking so much time that it really was not feasible to be able to gain a lot of clientele without putting more resources in place than we were actually being paid. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Like, we are providers. You need to be able to make it less work for them [chuckles] and still be able to provide that quality of care to the individuals. So, it's really interesting you were able to solve for that in your next iteration. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint VICTORIA: As a company providing health and medical services, how have you navigated the industry? Clearly, you have a big background in health. But how did you get to make your business viable, considering all the bureaucratic nature of the American healthcare system? WENDY: [chuckles] Really, a part of our mission at Exhale is making pulmonary rehab accessible and affordable, and those two things are difficult in our healthcare system right now. Affordability for pulmonary rehab...just a background in what happens if you go to an in-person program, in-person programs, if you are lucky enough to have one available, and get through the waiting list, and your insurance approves you, then each time you go in, which is usually 2 to 3 times a week over an 8 to 12 week period of time, insurance will pay a portion of that, but you will have a copay each time. And a lot of times, the copays range between $15 and $30 time period. So, individuals who are on a fixed income, because we're dealing with a lot of people who are older and on Medicare, probably have a very fixed income, they cannot afford that. And often, the attrition in those programs is a big problem because, one, getting a lung patient who is carting oxygen and can't walk very far, can't walk to the end of the block, but you're asking them to park in a parking lot, walk all the way into a hospital, up the stairs, and get into the program. They're exhausted by the time or can't do that. And then they have to pay a copay each time they go in. And so, we wanted our program to be affordable and accessible. So, we created it where we did not accept insurance at first at all. Insurance does not cover online programs right now. And so we priced ours at the price of a copay per month. So, for the cost of an individual to go one week at an in-person program, they can do our 12-week program and get all the way through. So, that was really important to us to ensure that accessibility, and availability, affordability were all a part of our program and our mission. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's interesting that insurance doesn't cover online services in a time when a lot of things are [laughs] online. WENDY: It is really confounding that a service like this is not covered by insurance. Now, we did recently...there is a remote therapeutic monitoring that was available through CMS, added it to their care in 2022, to their fee schedule. We have just implemented our remote therapeutic monitoring side of our lung program. And it is specifically for those with lung disease. We help their offices, the patient's physician's office, to monitor these patients on a daily basis and then give them feedback on whether or not the patients are taking their medication, and how well they slept, and whether or not they're feeling well that day. And that way, the physician's office can intervene faster, and it keeps those individuals out of the hospital. A bonus of the Exhale program is that our lung rehab comes free to those who are enrolled in remote therapeutic monitoring. So, if you are a part of our program, then you will receive that service and the benefits of having a rehab program to you. And that's just one more way that we're making it accessible, available, and affordable to people. VICTORIA: That's really interesting and leads me to my next question, which is, what are some of the biggest hurdles that you see ahead of you in the next six months? WENDY: The biggest hurdle probably is, where is insurance going? Will it begin to cover it in the future? Because that is super important to getting people the care that they need. And then, how will Medicare and other insurance providers decide to change things? Usually, January 1st of every single year, they put out their new fee schedules. In some years, they just completely cut off services altogether. And so, what I would like to see is expansion of online services becoming reimbursable through insurance companies, and certainly that they see the value of having a service like this that is incredibly affordable, that is getting fantastic outcomes for people with severe lung disease, and giving them a better life, and keeping them out of the hospital, that they see the value in reimbursing programs like ours so that we are sustainable in the future. VICTORIA: Yeah. It seems like a win-win for everyone because it keeps your healthcare costs down when you're not going to the hospital and probably helps with all other kinds of health...like you mentioned before, how if your lungs are healthy and you're able to move, it makes your overall body much more healthier. So, what is the wind in your sails? What keeps you going with the program? WENDY: As a founder, there are always times whenever you're like, okay, what are we doing here? Like, this is so hard. It's [laughs], you know, the ups and downs. And what are we doing? Maybe I just stop this and go back to the clinic. But ultimately, I think what keeps me going is hearing the stories of our clients and how much this program has affected their day-to-day life, and how appreciative they are that we have created something that they can do from home and when they did not have this service available to them previously. I spoke to someone just on Monday, and he was talking about how he had been in a difficult position. And he said, "I just channeled those lessons that you taught us, and I did my breathing techniques. And I got through it. And I just am so thankful that you guys had taught me how to do that because I don't know if I would have gotten through that situation." And those are the stories that we love to hear. We love hearing, "Hey, I was able to play with my grandchildren on Thanksgiving because of your program," or "I was able to cook for myself, and that's the first time that I have cooked for myself in three years because I can't stand there that long without being too short of breath." Those stories and talking to our clients it's why I keep doing this. It's why I get up every day and go, okay, whatever problem that we find, we're going to solve it and make this company viable long term because of those outcomes that we're seeing. VICTORIA: And what a great way to know that it does matter when you're hearing those stories. And for those individual people, that's a huge life-changing difference. WENDY: Yeah, it certainly is. And it, really, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you don't think about how important it is to just be able to walk from one room to another or be able to clean your bathtub or go get groceries. I mean, those little tasks you don't think about until you are so sick or debilitated that you can't do those things. And it means the difference in having a life that they love to live and having, you know, the resources that they need to be able to live that life. Those stories definitely keep us going and will keep us going as long as we possibly can. Because we really truly, for those that are utilizing our service, believe that we're helping them reach their goals and beyond and live the best life that they can possibly live with lung disease. VICTORIA: Oh, that's really awesome. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us today. Do you have any questions for me or for thoughtbot about anything? WENDY: You know, I think the big question for us is, do you have any users out there? Do you have anyone that is listening to this program right now that needs lung rehabilitation? Or are you a clinician, or do you know a clinician that deals with people with lung disease? We would absolutely love to talk to them and provide our services, and tell you how our outcomes are looking with the patients that we've served so far. So, I guess the big question is, do you know anyone with lung disease, and would you be willing to send them our way? VICTORIA: Oh, that's incredible. I certainly have some people in my mind who I'm like, oh, you should really introduce to this group of folks over here. I love that that's what you're working on. And is there anything else that you'd like to promote today? WENDY: Just in general, pulmonary rehabilitation is so important. And if you have an in-person program that's near you, I want to promote them, too. I want you to know that pulmonary rehab is an incredible service. And the outcomes, we have so much research that says if you do an 8 to 12-week program, that you will gain benefits from going through the program. So, whether it's our program, whether it's an in-person program, or a program at a clinic that you go to, I would just encourage anybody to take part in pulmonary rehab if you have lung disease. And certainly, if you're new to lung disease, if you're a COVID recoverer that has some fibrotic changes in your lungs that you need help navigating, then reach out to those professionals that are in pulmonary rehabilitation because they can help you definitely. And Exhale would always love to serve those, whether post-COVID, or asthma, COPD, fibrosis, pulmonary hypertension, all of those lung diseases. We are here for you, as well as other clinicians that are in this arena. VICTORIA: One person I'm thinking of works with people who are vaping a lot, really high vaping community. And I'm sure [inaudible 30:48] [laughs], yeah, I hear that in your voice. WENDY: Yeah. [laughs] VICTORIA: So that's someone I was like, maybe that'd be a good program for her to share with the people she works with because yeah...and the other...this might be, you know, I know this is a disease issue, but in San Diego, we have a lot of freedivers and people who train holding their breath for a long time. And they've been trying to get me to do that. And so, I was like, well, maybe [chuckles] I could try it and just increase my lung capacity and overall be healthy, too. WENDY: Yeah, that's a great program, too. It is interesting, too, to see a person's lung function. We have pulmonary lung function diagnostic tests that can be done in a clinic. In the pre and post-diver training, yeah, lung function changes quite a bit in your ability to expand your lungs, hold your breath, and maneuver that oxygen across the membrane so that you are able to sustain longer. So yeah, that's really interesting. And your point of vape, certainly, we have smoking cessation programs that are involved in our lung rehabilitation. If you smoke, then you get some of those classes about how do I quit smoking? But vaping is becoming a really large issue. I have given several talks in high schools recently. And certainly, with my work with the American Lung Association, American Lung Association does a fantastic job of creating supplemental materials for individuals who, you know, are working with people in that arena. And so, they've really focused on the vape epidemic recently. And so, if you are dealing with anybody, and especially the youth population, there is a wonderful toolkit that the American Lung Association has available. You can download it. There are some videos or some, like, handouts and stuff like that. Those programs are helping, especially in our schools, because there is a true epidemic with vaping right now. And, unfortunately, when the vape industry created those items, they kind of took a key out of the book from the cigarette companies and promoted it as some, you know, health benefit. And what we're finding on the flip side in all of the diagnostic testing is it's just as bad as cigarettes. And it's creating a really big problem, especially if they're starting early, 14-15 years old, and their lungs are not developed all the way yet. It is not just water vapor, like they say. It is some very serious, toxic chemicals that they're inhaling, and it has some long-term effects that are going to create some fibrotic changes in the lungs long term. So, as you mentioned, you know, the vape industry, I'm definitely a proponent of preventing people from getting vape products and preventing youth from having access to that. VICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. It's a big problem. And I'm excited to see how Exhale and other people are working together to kind of get that message out and solve those problems. So, I appreciate you coming on this show today and sharing all of that with me. WENDY: I would really love to say thank you so much for considering me and considering Exhale for your program. I always love an opportunity to talk about it. You can tell that I'm very passionate about Exhale and what we're providing, and so thanks so much for letting me come on today. I really appreciate it. It was wonderful to meet you. VICTORIA: Wonderful to meet you as well. And I really enjoyed hearing your story and hearing all about the great work you're doing. So, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guest: Wendy Lawson.

Today's conversation revolves around the importance and challenges of goal setting within organizations. It highlights how identifying and articulating real problems can be transformative, turning abstract desires for growth into concrete plans for improvement. Host Victoria Guido and special guest Evan Hammer discuss the nuances of leadership and organizational self-awareness, emphasizing the need for honesty and a growth mindset when addressing weaknesses. They touch on Evan's role as an OKR Coach in fostering alignment, focus, and excitement around goals, particularly in small to mid-sized companies. Evan shares his enthusiasm for goal setting and believes his passion can inspire others. He points out the positive outcomes when employees engage with goals that address problems they care about. Victoria and Evan agree that success is not solely measured by hitting OKRs but also by engagement and alignment within the team. They discuss the ideal organizations for Evan's work, which include small to medium-sized companies seeking to improve focus and alignment, as well as start-up teams needing more straightforward goal statements and go-to-market strategies. Evan also recounts his experience as a Techstars mentor, noting that a common issue across companies is the lack of clear goals, and he emphasizes the power of focus as a lever for growth. Follow Evan Hammer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanhammer/) or X (https://twitter.com/evanhammer). Visit his website at evanhammer.com (https://evanhammer.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Evan Hammer, OKR and personal goals coach. Evan, thank you for joining us. EVAN: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Me too. And I wanted to ask you first, before we dive into business, tell me a personal goal that you've achieved recently that you're most proud of. EVAN: I guess a couple of months ago, I did a 100-mile loop of Mount Rainier. So, it was a 10-day backpacking trip. My younger brother, I went with him, and it's the kind of thing he does more regularly. Yeah, it was something I was kind of excited to do but really unsure of, and worked super hard between the gear and the training and just, like, the mindset. But it was also just awesome being out in the woods for ten days. VICTORIA: I also love being out in the woods for long periods of time. I guess, like, how long did your brother plan this trip for? And how long were you involved before you decided to go? EVAN: You know, it was something he was planning to do since the spring. He won a lottery to be able to do it. And I was going back and forth for a few months. And I think it was just maybe in the end of June where I was like, okay, I'm doing this. I need to put together a gear list, figure out a training plan. I live in Fort Greene in Brooklyn. And it was a lot of, like, waking up early and going up and down the steps in Fort Greene Park, which is, like, you know, 6, 10 flights of steps, something like that outdoors -- VICTORIA: [laughs] EVAN: With a heavy backpack on for two to three hours, like on weekends. VICTORIA: Oooh. Wow. EVAN: Yeah, it was one of those things I was like, you know, you don't know when you do something like this how it's going to go until you're there doing it or how your body is going to respond. So, it was a little bit of, like, trying to train as much as possible but also being aware that I just have to deal with whatever will happen on the trip. VICTORIA: I love that, at first, it sounds sort of, like, fun. Like, "Oh, do you want to go on this trip with me?" And you're like, "Yeah, okay." And then you look at the training plan, and it's like, "We'll wake up at 6:00 a.m. every day and walk up and down ten flights of stairs [laughs] with a heavy backpack on," you know, like, "Oh okay, [laughs] a lot of prep work to have this trip." [laughs] EVAN: It's fun in that you're doing something amazing, and it's beautiful. And it was just one of the more beautiful places I've ever been. It was really interesting and meaningful to me to kind of be detached from everything that I normally do and just focus on being in the woods and hiking these mountains. But yeah, you don't know how it's going to go. So, it's like you're putting yourself in an extreme physical situation. I think that's anxiety-inducing, and it feels good and is healthy and protective to train for it. VICTORIA: I agree. Yeah, I mean, I totally relate to that. I'm a rock climber and hiker myself. And sometimes I spend all this time, you know, on gym memberships, climbing in the gym, running up and down hills. And then, I get all the way out to rock, and I'm about to start my climb, and I'm like, why am I doing this? [laughs] This is a lot of work to get to this point. But then it is all fun, and it's super worth it. And I always feel restored whenever I come back from being a long time in nature. It's really great. I think maybe to get towards, like, a metrics conversation that we talk about a lot in climbing is the type of fun something is. So, there's three types of fun levels. Have you heard this framework before, Evan? EVAN: I have not. VICTORIA: Okay, so there's three levels of fun. Level one fun is, like, you're having fun while you're doing it. We're, like, laughing and enjoying recording a podcast together. Like, oh my God, it's so much fun, super easy, not stressful. Maybe it was a little stressful for you, I don't know. [chuckles] It's a little stressful for me. Level two fun is it's a little difficult while you're doing it, but you're still looking back on it and having fun, but you're never really in any kind of intense danger, right? Like, you're going on a backpacking trip. It's relatively within your health expectations, and the trail is walkable. You're not, like, going to fumble and fall down a cliff. It's level-two fun. So, you're mostly enjoying it. Like, it's kind of difficult, and there's some effort involved, but it's still fun. Level three fun is when it's very dangerous, and you're really scared the whole time [laughs], and, like, you maybe, like, could have died. But looking back on it, it's fun. So, how would you rate your Mount Rainier trip? EVAN: It's funny because we actually...we didn't come up with the levels, but we spoke about how when you're hiking, often, in your head, you're just trying to figure out how much longer you have to hike as if the whole point was not to be hiking. And then you finish hiking for the day, and you're like, "Oh, that was so great. I'm so looking forward to waking up tomorrow and hiking some more." VICTORIA: Yeah [chuckles], exactly. EVAN: That fits the level two fun pretty explicitly. VICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, it's a very, you know, I've found it to be pretty useful. And, you know, as I get older, I tend to try to avoid level three fun more often [laughs]. Like, I don't really need to be frightened [laughs]. I have enough stress in my life. I don't need to also endanger myself too aggressively. But, you know, everyone has their own risk level as well, right? Like, someone else might think the type of climbing and hiking that I'm doing is level three fun, but, for me, it's more...and, like, there's other things like skateboarding and riding a bike where, for me, is level three. I'm scared and [laughs] -- EVAN: Right. And I think you also frame level three as, like, sort of physical safety. But, you know, people have different risk tolerances and classifications across the board. So, like, for me, I try to stay away from things that I would consider physically dangerous. But I'm very comfortable, like, taking financial or social risk, where I know other people have an inverted kind of spectrum where, like, social risk is, like [laughs], you know, is a terror to them when physical risk doesn't seem that scary to them, you know, so... VICTORIA: That's so interesting. And especially for me, I do a lot of networking. And I'm, of course, been really active in San Diego Startup Week this week. We're recording this in October. So, for some people, going to an event where there's going to be hundreds of people, you maybe have met some of them before, but you really don't have a buddy that you are coming to this event with. You're on your own. You're going to have to walk up to people, start conversations, figure out who is who, and, like, find your people. That's terrifying for a lot of people. And they're like, "Absolutely not." [laughs] EVAN: Well, it's interesting how, like, level one and level three can be inverted. I went to a conference last fall by myself, and I actually had some voice issues. So, I couldn't talk for a little bit before this, so it was like...or even that well, during, you know, it was kind of an environment that I think a lot of people might be feeling like, oh, that's level three social experience. And I just remember how much fun I had there. Like, for me, it was totally a level one thing. But, you know, there's definitely moments on this hike where I was like, oh, this is level three. This feels physically scary, even though most of the time it wasn't. VICTORIA: Yeah, no, I think it's helpful. So, maybe that helps us segue a little bit into telling me more about what you do and how you came to do what you do. What's your background? EVAN: What do I do? I'll give you, like, a list of the things that I do. I will say I help people focus and maybe communicate better. You know, the list is, like, I am an OKR coach, right? That's objectives and key results, coaching business leaders on how to set goals and get everybody aligned towards the same goals. I do personal goals coaching, and that's, like, helping individual people set goals that are meaningful to them and live more intentionally. I'm a Techstars mentor, where I mentor companies. And I also do, like, a fractional head of product role. And it's a little all over the place. I mean, it's something that, obviously, a lot of that is, like, business coaching but really focused around focus and how you can use goal setting to accelerate growth for a business or an organization or for yourself personally. VICTORIA: How did it get started? What led you to be the coach that you are today? EVAN: Yeah, you know, I get asked this question. And I feel like there's a story about how I kind of tested goal setting. I was a founder. I went to Techstars in, like, 2013. And I was running the company. So, I had to, like, mess around with goal setting and then ended up being at Codecademy and Vimeo. They were doing OKRs. And there were certain things I liked and certain things I didn't. And there was, like, this progression. But I think the truth is that I just really like systems and organizing things, and I think I've always been like that. And OKRs are a way of taking something that's really messy, which is, like, a group of people running together in some direction and saying, "Oh, well, what if we come up with, like, some agreed plan here, and some rules, and some guidance? And we can split this out between what, like, the company and the organization is doing versus what individual people are doing or what the department's doing." I think I just find that process comforting. It's just, like, gleeful for me to be working with people on how they're going to focus and organize themselves, and then also how they're going to communicate that focus to each other, which I think is, like, a key part of people staying on the same page. VICTORIA: I love that. And I really want to dig into some examples of OKRs and maybe even get some free OKR coaching for myself on this episode. But, you know, but with your background, I wanted to start with looking at the founder experience versus being someone in a larger organization. How do you bring in that context of where you are in your journey into how you think about setting goals for an individual? EVAN: I think it's a hard question for me because my viewpoint on how goal setting and strategy and achievement in organizations has changed over this whole time, right? So, I was a founder, then at these larger organizations. I think I've tried to synthesize some, like, through line rather than difference between them. So, let me start there. I think when you look at a founder, or a founding team, or a larger organization, the key thing to figure out is where you're going and coming up with really clear goals. And then, depending on the size of the organization, there's different tactics you can use, right? So, if you're a founder, it might be just sitting down with your co-founders once a week, having a clear Northstar metric, and having a clear goal, and then everybody's running, and that works. Zoom to a 100-person company, which is, like, I probably focus on, like, 20 to 100-person companies. And now you have a lot of confusion between departments because you have people who are working on very different parts of the business. So, I think OKRs, at that point, are really great because it is this, like...and we will talk more about OKRs. But it's this cascading goal-setting technique where you have company goals that everybody understands and agrees to, and then each department is carving out how they're going to support that, which is, like, less necessary for a small company. But I still think the key thing is to know what you want, what your biggest problem is in getting there, and what your approach is going to be in overcoming that problem, which is, you know, is, like, I guess, strategy 101. VICTORIA: I like that. And it's funny; it makes me think of a tarot card layout. That's a situation I'll come and approach. Anyways, I wanted to get, like, down to the basics. I think we said OKRs earlier, but what is an OKR, if you can define that? EVAN: Yeah, so objectives and key results. An objective is any goal you have, so that can be launch a feature, revamp your sales process, or achieve some sort of milestone or some capability, right? So, often, that's, like, build a new department, or come up not just with a specific feature but a new offering, like launch a whole product line. Anything that's important to you can be a goal. It should be clear and inspiring. And that's the objective piece. Key results answer the question: how will you know if you're successful in reaching that goal? That might be if you're building a new department, a certain number of hires. If you're launching a feature or want to have a new offering, that might be some KPI for the product team, like, you know, onboarding rates or retention rates. VICTORIA: Yeah, and let's maybe even go into a real example: myself, I'm a managing director here at thoughtbot. People who aren't familiar with thoughtbot...I'm sure everyone listening has [laughs] familiarity with what we do as a product and business consultancy. And our team at Mission Control, the goal was to innovate on our approach to how we were deploying and managing software. So, over 20 years, the trends and modernization of infrastructure was something we wanted to be a part of, and we wanted to enable and accelerate not just our own development teams but our clients' teams in deploying software securely and efficiently and meeting everything that we need to do. Like, it's an incredibly complex environment. And there's lots of choices to make. So, that's, like, the big vision of what we're trying to do at thoughtbot. It's a new service. It's touching not only our internal processes but also, like, the growth of our business overall. So, what I've done as a managing director I talk with my team. I work with the CTO of thoughtbot, Joe Ferris. He's my acting director [chuckles] on identifying what is our overall approach? What's our strategy? So, one of the things we do at thoughtbot, one of our strategies, is to put content out there. So, we want to build stuff that works for us, and we want to share and talk about it. And we believe that by putting good stuff out there, good stuff will come back to us [laughs]. So, really just increasing the amount of blog posts, increasing the amount of open-source contributions and [inaudible 13:03] people we talk to and hear about what their problems are. We think that that will be an indicator for us of whether or not we're being successful in growing this business. So, that's just, like, one small strategy, but I've got five other ones if you want to talk about them. EVAN: Yeah, I mean, you highlighted a large goal that you have, and then some of the, like, sub-objectives in reaching that goal. And you could imagine key results being metrics along number of blog posts, audience size, number of readers, engagement. I mean, all those have different values, depending on what your goals are. VICTORIA: Exactly right. Like, there's the overall leading indicators we have of, like, whether or not we're successful as a business [laughs], which is, like, revenue, and, like, margins of profit, which really aren't going to change. And as a company, we don't change our policies or things that often to where those costs are ultimately going to change. It's all about, like, are we bringing in new business? Are we retaining the clients we have? And are we able to sustain, you know, work that centers around this problem area? So, that kind of, like, makes our goal tracking, like, the numbers month to month somewhat easy. Although those individual strategies and how they all line up to meet, that is something I think I'm curious to hear about how you facilitate those discussions with teams. How would you, like, begin an engagement with a team where you have a company like thoughtbot [laughs]? How are you going to coach us to get better at our goals? EVAN: Well, one thing I do is I pull apart KPIs, Key Performance Indicators, from OKRs, which you actually implied. KPIs are metrics you use to judge the health of your business, when OKRs are the goals that are going to transform your business. They fit well together. But, you know, for a founding team, they're still trying to figure out, well, how do we actually measure if this is going well? What does that mean? And I have a whole technique for that. But for a larger company, something like thoughtbot, you probably have pretty clear KPIs for the business and for each department. And you can look each month to make sure that those are in a healthy band or each week. And then, when you go to set goals, one of the things you can say is, "Hey, what's not working well? Why are the KPIs not where they should be?" And there's other ways of coming up with good goals, but I do think that's one of the starting points for goal setting. Another one, and I'm curious if you all have this here, is, like, a sense of what's holding back your growth. So, if you have a clear goal of growing your business year over year; usually, people in different departments have a sense of what challenges they're facing in executing towards those growth goals. And, fundamentally, there's usually some sort of competitive or market conditions or customer conditions that are concerning to you as a business in terms of where you're currently at. So, do you all have that type of, I guess, angle on thoughtbot's growth at all? VICTORIA: You know, for me, it's my first year as managing director. And experiencing how thoughtbot does planning, I appreciated our approach this year was to ask each managing director more like a retro style, like, "What should we do more of? What do we like doing? What didn't really work, and what should we do less of? And what other things do we want to start doing?" So, it's kind of similar to start, stop, continue but, you know, just really reflecting on, like, what's working? What should we do more of? What doesn't work, and we should just stop [laughs], or change, or figure out how to improve? And then, what should we start doing? And what kind of new behaviors do we need to practice and learn to build a better system? Which I think when you talk about what's holding people back, I think it's difficult to understand in a complex organization of 100 people how all these departments work together and how they contribute and support teams. So, I'm curious, from your experience, and you like to come in and organize and get focused, so if you have that level of complexity in an organization, how do you start to get people organized and understanding how they all work together and what's working and what's not? EVAN: Yeah, that's a good question. I might punt that to the second half of my answer here and answer an earlier question [inaudible 17:08] how we get started. Because I think that actually comes up as, like, the second piece. I think the first piece is, like, when I start with an organization, I usually sit down with the CEO. Maybe there's a founding team. Maybe it's a leadership team. And I try to understand their vision for where the company's going and, one, how clear and actionable it is. So, does it feel like, oh, I get exactly how they're going from point A to point B to point C, or is it a little bit murkier? And trying to nail that down. And sometimes I do, like, a strategy workshop around that. But the next piece is understanding if they have a clear plan for the next quarter, next year. When I come into companies, I'm doing OKRs quarterly. So, even if they don't have a clear strategy, we still need to set goals for the next quarter. I then have them just kind of draft goals with not that much guidance here. I might do some sort of training so everybody, like, understands what OKRs are. And then, you know, I do...and this is a common thing, I think, like, my background is in product, is trying to understand the root cause of things. So, usually, there's some goal that I can ask. And, usually, there's a goal that's, like, something that seems very strategic, like a new offering, or changing how the business is organized, or it's very growth revenue-oriented. Those are, like, the two types of goals that people usually come up with. So, there's a lot of just, like, asking why this is valuable, and kind of going up the ladder, down the ladder asking why it's valuable, and understanding what their root motivation is for doing this. And then going the other direction and saying, "Oh, if we did this, then what would happen?" And trying to just understand how they're thinking of this goal and how it fits in a longer chain of events. And, usually, through that process, we shift the focus point. So, it's rare that somebody comes up with, like, exactly the right goal. I think when they start understanding what would the effect be of that goal, sometimes one of those things is the actual goal. Or if there's a root cause, it doesn't always mean that we go to the root cause, right? If somebody wants to, like, fix their onboarding, and that's really, like, their whole focus point, you know, when you say, "Why?" and they talk about helping a certain customer get more focused. And then you may say, "Well, why?" And they say, "Oh, well, you know, we have this revenue model that involves helping them, and we make money." And "Why?" "So we can grow our business at a certain clip." And that's the arc that we build. That doesn't mean we go to, oh, well, you're trying to make more money faster. That might not be really what the focus should be for the quarter. So, we have to always start just trying to, like, dial in with what the right angle is. That's both...I think you want to choose the thing that's the most fundamental to the business that still feels attainable and focusable, if that's a word, in the short term, right? That's like, oh, this is a good target for a quarter or a year, if you're doing it on an annual basis. So, that's, like, how I usually get started with folks, which, you know, depending on how much thought there is around strategy, like, it goes in different ways. Sometimes, the company has a very, like, clear strategy, and then everything I said works pretty smoothly. And you get to a goal very quickly that you kind of orient the company around. If the strategy is either not explicit or maybe the CEO has a different vision for it than, you know, CTO or the head of sales, then there's more negotiating between folks and getting on the same page. And I think that's a whole, like, can of worms that we can dive into, but that's, like, a different type of exploration. VICTORIA: Yes, I love all that. I have so many follow-up things I want to ask. Just to play it back a little bit, too, I really resonated with some of what you're saying around it's kind of better to draft it; just write it. Like, the act of planning is more valuable than the plan itself. Like, get as close as you can as fast as you can [laughs]. That makes sense. Like, something that feels, like, good enough and, like, kind of go with it and, like, see how it goes. You know, like, I think that's a mindset that can be difficult to implement in an organization, especially if there's been, like, past trauma with, like, not meeting your goals. And how does that flow down to the organization? EVAN: That's a hard thing. VICTORIA: And it makes me think of, like, what you started with, like, talking about getting to the root of what's happening. Like, what are the motivations of individual people? Like, what's happened in the past? Like, trying to take an approach that's...I prefer blame-aware to blameless. You can't get away from the tendency to blame people. So, you just have to accept that that happens and kind of move on and, like, quickly go past it [laughs] and just, like, really get to, like, what are the facts? What does the data say about this organization? So, anyways, I think that that was where I went to. I think -- EVAN: One thing I did...I started with a new company; I guess, two or three quarters ago around the OKR coaching. And, you know, I think there was this expectation. We've been doing OKRs. There's issues we need you to come in and solve and fix everything. And the tone I tried to set was, hey, I'm not here to set great goals for you. You're going to set the best goals you can. And I'm here to help support that process and teach you a lot about goal setting. And we're going to do this every quarter. And after two or three quarters, things are going to start becoming a lot easier. People are going to communicate better. Everybody's going to be on the same page. And it's going to feel like, oh, we're getting really good at goal setting. And then, like, I try to set that tone when I start working with the CEO of, like, the point here is to make your whole leadership team good at goal setting so that you have this skill as an organization, rather than set just the right goals with the right language in the right way right now, right? We want to timebox everything. So, we're moving forward using this tool to make progress throughout the quarter, and then each quarter, revisiting it and getting better. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: And I'm curious if there's anything else when you're evaluating whether or not someone might be a good fit for the work that you want to do with them. Are there, like, some red flag, green flag energy that you check for with executives when you're deciding whether or not to work with them? EVAN: Yeah, there are two flags that come up; one is, are they clear with what they're saying? I think a lot of leaders want to sound good. So, that doesn't mean that they need to be clear right off the bat. But in a conversation where someone says, "This is our vision," and you say, "Hey, I don't understand X, Y, and Z," or "This part didn't make sense to me. Can we dive into it?" And yeah, if someone through a conversation can be really clear about what's important to the company and where they're going, I think that's, like, key. Because if someone's talking around issues all the time and when you kind of bring up things they don't really address it, it's very hard to make any progress. It's like, you know, the lack of specificity ends up being a defense towards maybe dealing with some of the difficult conversations. But, like, at the end of the day, like, one of the major things that happens with goal setting that makes it, I think, feel exciting to people when it does—it always feels exciting to me [laughs]—when it feels exciting to other people is that they say, for the first time, "Oh, this is actually the thing holding us back. This is the problem. Yeah, we want to grow our business." But when you say, "Well, what are all the things you do to grow your business?" All of a sudden, you start talking through things, and someone says, "Hey, this is the real problem. This is why we're struggling to grow our business." And, you know, that transforms the conversation. People who are avoiding being specific, that can be really hard. That's one thing. And the other thing is around responding to feedback. And, you know, you can just...and this is a common interview question, right? You can ask somebody, "What do you think the weaknesses of your organization are?" And if somebody doesn't know, but they're, like, open to it, that's, I think, totally fine. But if it seems like they're constantly kind of, like, filibustering the answer there, it's like, hey, the main thing you're bringing me on to do is to make sure that you communicate the weaknesses of your organization to everybody else because that's what goals are about. They're about overcoming the weaknesses of your organization. So, those are two areas. And they also speak to, like, I think, rapport with the people that I'll be working with. VICTORIA: I agree. And I like that, you know, you're asking really for people, are you going to be honest about what's happening in your organization? Are you honest with yourself about where you're not doing well? And I think I also pay attention to the language people use to describe those problems. And are they really speaking with a growth mindset or a fixed mindset? Because that's a really hard thing to change [laughs]. Naturally, I think people who are good leaders and run successful companies have a growth mindset. So, I think that's usually there. But that would be some yellow-flag stuff for me. EVAN: You know, when people are looking to hire an OKR coach, they usually already are looking for improvement. And it's not like they're hiring a product manager, right? You have to be saying to yourself, hey, I believe that if we did better around goals, our company would grow better. We'd have better focus. We'd have better alignment. Like, there's already a belief that people have that is usually pretty self-aware of the limits of both the people there and the organization where it's at today, and they're looking for help. So, I think I come across what you brought up more in individual people on a leadership team that, like, feel more coachable or less coachable depending on how interested they are around expanding how they think about things and growing. And, you know, obviously, [inaudible 27:01] lots of opinions that are wrong, and I love the disagreement that comes up there. But you want to, you know, you want to be speaking to people that are generally open to learning through a conversational process. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah, I think it's like a confirming thing. Like, if they're reaching out to a goals coach, they probably do have a growth mindset. And if the top leadership does, then that means that there's an opportunity for other people to come along as well. So, I like opening it up that way and getting people to get specific about their goals as well. I think that's a real challenge. Like, it's either too vague or too specific, not inspiring enough. Some people still bring up SMART goals with me. I like to prefer HARD goals, but you probably need those. And I'm curious if you're familiar with those acronyms. I can spell them out. And I'm sure you've heard of both of these [laughs]. A lot of people are familiar with the SMART goals and the specific, measurable, actionable. I forget what the Rs and Ts are. But then HARD goals are heartfelt and more around, like, the big vision. And it's something that you want to get people excited about, which is something that you said earlier. Like, how do you get people excited? And some people would think of a corporate goal-setting event as a level three fun [laughter]. So, how do you make it more like a two or a one? EVAN: I don't know, a lot of what I hope I offer to folks...and I've gotten good feedback here is that I enjoy goal setting a lot. So, talking through all these problems, talking through challenges, doing workshops, having these conversations. Like, whenever I'm doing that, it's my favorite thing to be doing. So, I think, hopefully, some of my joy just rubs off on the people around me. Because I do think talking to somebody who's excited about what you're talking about is helpful. The other thing is, usually, at a decently small company, under 100 people, I'm working with the CEO and the leadership team; you know, people are there because they care about the company. They care about the mission of the company. They care about the people in the company, and they care about the growth of the company. So, I get why goal setting has, I think, can have a bad rap. But if you're fundamentally solving problems that people care about, there should be some, like, glee that comes in when people say, like, "Oh, yeah, I thought this was going to be about, like, how do we grow more? And that felt very generic to me." And it turns out when we actually think about how we grow more, and we talk through what's holding back our growth and what we can do to overcome that, and we have the top few ideas that we've all come up with, usually, those feel really relieving to people. And there's a company I'm working with now that I think is struggling to shift their target market a bit because...and there's awareness that the target market needs to shift, but there isn't so much knowledge around the new target market. There's a lot more knowledge around the old target market. And so, we're doing a bunch of research and talking to folks. And I know once we're able to say, "For this target market, we need to do X," there is going to be, like, a huge amount of excitement and relief at the organization because people will feel like, oh, we've crossed that bridge, that bridge that we were kind of in the middle of crossing and didn't really know where the other side was. We now can see that other side, and we're going there. So yeah, I think there can be a lot of excitement around this stuff when it's real, and it's important work that you're doing. VICTORIA: Right. Like, maybe there's a good factor of, like, how do you measure if what you've done with a company is successful? Is there a glee scale that you [laughs] use to evaluate? EVAN: You know, for me, it's still probably more subjective than I want it to be. You know, I'd love it to be like, what percentage of people's OKRs did I [laughs] hit each quarter? And when I work with them, it gets better. But I think that's, like, a pretty short-sighted view in terms of my role. So, you know, I'm looking for people who were maybe disengaged to be more engaged, people who didn't see the value of OKRs to see and be able to articulate how their daily work is different because of the OKRs we set. Yeah, and obviously, there's excitement when we're solving real problems. And we're changing the problems each quarter, and people are seeing growth increase. You know, like, all that stuff, I guess there's, like, a tangible excitement with. But I hope folks can, like, just connect the dots between the work, which can be tedious work around goal setting and negotiating with people. And often, it pulls you out of other day-to-day work that you're doing, especially for a small company, with the excitement towards the end of the quarter of reaching these goals and moving on to the next challenge. VICTORIA: I think that's great. I think that was a perfect answer. It's kind of not always easy to know what [laughs]...like, sometimes there's a sense of it, like, you have a feeling, and sometimes you can get data to back that up. And other times, you know you're doing the right thing by the people's faces around you at the end of the workshop [laughs]. So, I think that's great. And so, maybe my final question would be is, like, what would be the ideal organization that you would want to work with? Like, who's your ideal customer right now? EVAN: Yeah, I guess I have two ideal customers based on these, like, two things that I'm doing. In terms of the OKR coaching, I usually look for CEO or founding team of a company that's now, like, 20-plus people who's saying, "Oh, we have these departments," or "We have this leadership team. And we need to really get all on the same page at the beginning of the quarter because then everybody's going to consistently be talking to each other but has other people that they need to organize." That's definitely for the OKR coaching where, like, 20 to 30 people is where that starts. That probably goes up to 100 in terms of where I focus. For the other work I do as a Techstars mentor and the coaching I do through that, that's really for founding teams. And that's more focused on how do you take your vision and make that a clear goal statement, which is around, like, behavior change, usually, in a certain population you're targeting? How do you turn that into a go-to-market plan? How do you turn that into a product roadmap? So, for that, that's just much smaller teams. I actually think that work often needs to be done at larger organizations, too. That's, like, a common thing that comes up. And that can bleed into strategy at large organizations. But yeah, I know that's probably a pretty broad bucket, but groups of people that believe that focus is a key lever towards faster growth. VICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I guess I said that was my final question, but I'll add two more questions. Can you share an anecdote from being a mentor at Techstars that you think will be interesting for our audience? EVAN: I think I was struck the first time I did the mentoring. They do, like, a Mentor Madness. So, it's like, you know, six companies in a row, and every company they all have different challenges. But a lot of them, it's, like, helping them articulate what they're doing a little bit more clearly. And often, there's a question around sales and growth and maybe fundraising. So, there's just, like, a focus in that direction. And I found that every company, even though they had kind of different questions, I was giving the same answer to, which was, I don't think your goal is clear to you or to me. And so, there's this framework that I would use with each company that there was, like, this aha moment. And I picked this up from a person named Matt Wallaert. It was a book, "Start at the End." It's called a behavioral statement. And it's when population wants to motivation, and they have limitations, they do behavior as measured by data. And the kind of conceptual version is, oh, you're trying to get some group of people to change their behavior. And that's only going to happen if you can tap into a motivation that happens to them as frequently as the behavior you want to change. So, it's like a formalization of that. And each group, I'd like bring up the statement; we work on filling it quickly. And there was just, like, a clarity that would develop around what they were doing and how to orient themselves both on the growth and marketing side and on the product development side. I guess it just struck me how much that little framing was transformative to [laughs] accelerating both focus and alignment but, more importantly, like, getting somewhere that they wanted to get to. VICTORIA: It sounds almost like building a mental model of what you're trying to do [laughs], right? Like, it was a mental model that you referenced in your mind that helps you make decisions every single day. So, I really appreciate that. And we are about out of time. So, let me ask you, is there anything else that you would like to promote today? EVAN: Sure. Looking for a couple more OKR coaching clients for the new year, and just happy to chat with anybody who has questions around OKRs or goal setting for their organization. I also do personal goals coaching, which is a little different from the OKR coaching that I help individual people with their goals. But it's also similar. It's a lot of like...it's a lot more, like, reflection, and getting to know oneself, and coming up with goals that are really meaningful. And then the other half of, like, I think you alluded to this earlier around systems. Like, how do you take a goal that's important to you and actually act every day in ways that move you towards that goal? So yeah, interested in talking to people about both of those. I do some workshops as well, so people can reach out to me at evan@evanhammer.com. I can also put anybody on my mailing list. I do some workshops around both those things. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Evan, for joining us today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guest: Evan Hammer.

Host Victoria Guido and special guest Regina Nkenchor discuss the evolution and impact of Regina's work with the GNOME Project and OpenKids Africa. Regina explains how the GNOME Project is advancing its Global Inclusive Initiative, aiming to amplify diverse voices within the community and contribute to GNOME's development. She expresses enthusiasm for OpenKids Africa's efforts to incorporate technology education in rural communities, primarily through engaging early childhood teachers in understanding and teaching tech like virtual reality and robotics. Victoria probes into strategies for sparking children's interest in technology, with Regina advocating for a co-creative, experience-based approach that includes real-life applications and interactive participation. They also touch on the challenges of balancing professional and personal commitments. Regina shares her ongoing journey to find balance by prioritizing and delegating while still maintaining her nonprofit work and her role at the GNOME Project. They also talk about personal growth and community engagement. Regina advises newcomers to leverage open-source tools and be open to change while encouraging fair treatment within the open-source community. Victoria reflects on her experiences with Women Who Code, highlighting the importance of community involvement and networking for career advancement. Both emphasize the significance of creating safe, welcoming spaces in tech communities to foster inclusion and support, especially for women in tech. GNOME (https://www.gnome.org/) Follow GNOME on X (https://twitter.com/gnome), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/GNOME/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/gnome-foundation/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/GNOMEDesktop), or Mastodon (https://floss.social/@gnome). OpenKids Africa (https://openkidsafrica.com/) Follow OpenKids Africa on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/openkidsafrica/), X (https://twitter.com/openkidsafrica), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@openkidsafrica), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/openkidsafrica), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/openkidsafrica/). Follow Regina Nkenchor on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/reginankenchor/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Regina, Board Vice President of the GNOME Foundation and Founder at OpenKids Africa. Regina, thank you for joining me. REGINA: Thank you so much for having me. It's such a great opportunity to be here today. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. So, what's going on in your world, anything fun or exciting happening? REGINA: You know, I actually work in Sweden. And this period is actually one of the...let me say the peak period, beginning of a new year, beginning of a new year for my job. So, there's so much around projects, projects, projects. So, I wouldn't say this is more like a fun period because, after the summer, it's a different time here when you're working in Europe. VICTORIA: Yes, working in Sweden must be so interesting. I'm wondering if you found any cultural differences that were really surprising about working there. REGINA: Oh yes. I think there are so many cultural differences, one of it is...I come from Nigeria, and we have more, like, a particular way...we don't have a schedule for having breakfast. So, we can have breakfast anytime we want to, and we don't feel any problem by it. So, I could decide to have my breakfast by 12:00 or by 1:00 and have my lunch by 4:00 p.m., you know, it just depends. But here, it's more like you have to have your breakfast early. And by 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, you should be having your lunch. I'm still trying to get used to that one anyway. And also, another cultural difference that I've seen here that is very, very obvious to me compared to where I'm coming from, and I think this is basically the work culture around here, so they have, like, a work culture of taking certain timeouts for vacations, which is not the same thing for me when I was working back in Nigeria. I mean, you could just pick your vacations anytime you want to have them. But here, it's more like you have to have them around the summer somehow so that you could basically have much fun and get the time required. So, I think these basic two things are things I've had to adjust to working here now for over two years, so yeah. VICTORIA: So, more rigid timeframes for lunch, and breakfast, and vacation [laughs]. REGINA: Yes, yes. And, you know, it's quite funny because even when my colleagues are like, "Let's go and have lunch," and I'm not ready. And they feel like, "Are you okay? Like, you should be having lunch." [laughs] So, it's really rigid timeframe here, I would say that. VICTORIA: I like that. You know, working in a remote world, it's so easy to just work through lunch or skip breakfast and just go straight to your computer and work. So, I kind of like it. They're looking out for you and making sure that you're taking your breaks. REGINA: Yes. Yes. And it's actually also making me self-conscious. Because, you know, working daytime as a software engineer, you don't know when to eat. You don't know when to take a break. So, that realization, I'm beginning to more, like, take it more in and adapt to the culture here. Now, I'm always looking out for myself. And when I wake up in the morning, I remember that I need to, you know, grab something, no matter how small. And then, when it's around lunchtime, I'm also preparing to have something as well. So, I think it's really good. And it also keeps me more healthy, I would say [laughs], compared to me just eating anytime I want to eat. So, I think it's a very good culture. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I really want to hear more about your journey and your career. I first heard about you and invited you to the podcast when you were a speaker for Open Source Festival in Nigeria earlier this year. So, I'm curious how you went from being in Nigeria and how did you get into software engineering and get to where you are today with the GNOME Project and everything else. REGINA: Well, thank you so much for that. I actually started my technology career path...that's about...I would say around about 10-11 years ago. So, I graduated with a public administration bachelor's, so a bachelor's in public administration. I really did not think that I would be doing what I'm doing today. But so, when I graduated years ago, that was 2010, I needed more opportunity. And at the time, in Nigeria, technology was not something that was very available to everyone. What I mean is technology was mostly found around those that are privileged, those with more advantage, and all of that. And I wasn't around the set of people that had...those privileged to have computers in their homes or to have parents that has the money to buy these kinds of resources. But I had always known as a child that I was very good with my hands. And I could remember when I was quite younger, I was the one that my dad would go to to repair his phone when it's not working well. So, I had this thing with my hands that I couldn't really explain that I like to repair things. And so, when I graduated from the university, I got an opportunity to attend more like a program, a computer program, where they would teach stuff around IT for beginners and all of that. So, I enrolled, and when I enrolled for that particular program, I can remember they would show us more like a slideshow of different programs that you would like to learn, and then give you more like, insight into job opportunities available for those programs. So, when I sat in that class as a beginner, and I was watching the slideshows, one of the courses that caught my interest was Linux administration and database administration, so I opted in for that particular course. And that was basically how my journey began. When I began to learn about Linux, I began to use it to basically manage databases; then, I was managing databases in Oracle. And I found that one of the things that I needed to learn was basically knowing how to administer the Linux OS. From there, I began my first job. I worked as a faculty, more like a lecturer teaching Linux administration. So, this time, I had learned, and now I have to help other students learn as well. So, because of this, I began to use more of open-source tools. Now, just to do a little bit of realization check here, at the time when I was basically lecturing years back as a Linux administrator, I did not know that the concept open source existed. I knew that I was using Linux, but I did not really understand the concept of what open source is. So, going forward now, as I began to use these tools and began to teach students how to administer databases and use more of Linux operating system tools, I somehow, a particular year, stumbled on the GNOME Project. Because GNOME is more like a feature of the Linux OS—it's a desktop application—I was already familiar with it. I just decided to make my contributions there anyway since I had been using the GNOME Project over the years with the Linux operating system. So, I was basically fascinated to see that everything I had done as a user in my career was basically using open source to basically teach Linux and to teach my students. So, that's, in some way, how I got into technology, how I got into open source, and all of that. So, going into how I found myself [laughs] in the Open Source Festival and how I found myself in GNOME Project, I chose to contribute to the GNOME Project, one, because GNOME is one of the basic...I'll say a very good feature of the Linux OS. It's a desktop application––allows usability in a way that Linux seems like a Windows operating system. And so, I decided to go into GNOME just to learn more about community, how the community looks like and also contribute my quota to outreach and engagement. So, what it means is that there are different areas you can contribute to in the GNOME project, one of it is community and engagements, which means you basically help to do outreach, marketing, and events. So, I wanted to basically bring the GNOME project down to my location, and that's Africa, Nigeria. I wanted people to basically see the benefits of what the GNOME Project is to the Linux ecosystem and how they can also contribute to it. So, because of this, I created a chapter of GNOME in Africa. Right now, we have a community of GNOME Africa. And basically, that is how I started. So, this particular Open Source Festival that just completed for 2023 was not my first, although I was a keynote for this particular one. I had attended Open Source Festival in 2020, where I shared as a workshop speaker, and I shared more about improving Linux experience for African users. And one of the demos I did was basically showcasing the GNOME Project to the users. VICTORIA: I love that. And maybe you can say more about what the GNOME Project is and the kind of impact it can have on communities like the one that you're from. REGINA: One of the things with GNOME Project, in some way, it's a desktop application, a desktop application that features in the Linux operating system. So, like you know, we have the Windows operating system, and then we have user-friendly desktop that allows us to be able to basically use Windows without going through command lines all the time. GNOME is like that desktop application to Linux operating system. So, it's a feature of distros of Linux that decides to basically use it. So, what does it do to a community like mine? I think it is very clear, usability, and allows people as well to be able to contribute to the GNOME shell. Like any other open-source projects, one of the things is that you don't just become a user. But also, you can contribute to the innovation of that particular project, so not just having to be consumers of products but also become creators of those products by contributing to what the community is doing. So, I think what it has done to a community like mine is basically given people the opportunity and the free will to become creators for something that is quite unique to the Linux operating system and allowing them to also become part of a community, bringing diversity to the global community globally. VICTORIA: So, how does GNOME benefit as a project from having these additional communities in areas where they may not have had before? REGINA: I think the key thing here is diverse voices. The key thing here is bringing in people to create more diverse GNOME Projects. And it's not a buzzword. I think creating better technologies is allowing for diverse users' views to be heard. So, before I came into the GNOME project, they had presence around Europe and the U.S. but not so much around Asia and Africa. What this means is that the design, the usability, the culture around the community is not going to be that that is very friendly towards these communities that they are not part of, these communities that doesn't really know what is happening in the GNOME Project. So, having to bring in diversity, bringing in somebody like myself, community like myself, into the GNOME Project, what this means is that there will be more opportunities for GNOME to evolve around what they have in the previous years into something that is more global, something that is more inclusive, you know, a project that allows people to become contributors and designers of the GNOME shell. So, I would say this: when I got into the board...this is my second time in the board. We've had several discussions around how to bring in diversity into the GNOME Project and also allow users, newcomers to feel welcomed in the GNOME Project. And that is a discussion and an action that is basically progressive here. We are having these conversations because I have now come into the project. There is now space for the GNOME Project to see that we need to be more inclusive. We need to be more diverse in our approach, in our design, in the basically way we listen to users right now. So, this was not the case before I came in. So, it's basically just allowing more diversity into the GNOME Project. VICTORIA: I love that. And I think there's been a lot of studies and evidence that have shown that projects and companies with more inclusive and more diverse voices perform better business-wise afterwards. So, it's not only, like, a moral imperative but just smart business decisions. REGINA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. VICTORIA: And I'm curious, as a community organizer myself [chuckles], what surprised you about the early stages of starting up this community in Africa, or maybe even joining the board of this community now that you've become there? Anything that surprised you in the process there? REGINA: I think one of the first things that surprised me is that it was more like I was the only one that knows that GNOME exists [laughs]. So, it's me having to first always explain, giving onboarding sections to newcomers to basically explain to them what the GNOME Project is, and doing multiple demos to show how the GNOME desktop works within Linux. And I thought that people would just know these things and people would just understand how the Linux project works. So, that basically surprised me because I had to always have to...even up until now, I always have to more, like, introduce, guide, and explain what GNOME is and help users to basically or newcomers basically decide if it is something that they will want to contribute to, right? So, that's one thing that surprised me. And I think the second thing that surprised me was mainly about when I came into the GNOME Project; for a project that global, I thought that there would be some certain level of diversity around the projects. And I thought that I would see more of people like myself or more of people from maybe, you know, Asia or something like that. But I realized that that wasn't the case. Instead, I remember when I was being introduced to the project, I was introduced to other two Africans, and that made us three. And it was shocking for me that there was less presence for Africans within the GNOME Project. And I think that's one of the basic motivation for me to build a community in Africa and to see that they know that a project like GNOME exists. VICTORIA: I love that, and it reminds me of when I was running DevOps groups with Women Who Code and DevOps DC, how frequently you have to do just a 101, like, a 101, like, here's the basics. Here's the introduction. And getting really good at that and just knowing you're going to have to keep doing that and to bring in new people. Yeah, that's interesting; that was the point for you. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint VICTORIA: I'm curious; maybe we can dive more into open source in general and how it can be more inclusive and more diverse. Because I think what I see with open source is, you know, often, it's people doing maintenance on their own free time. They're not getting paid for it. And, of course, there's all the existing access and issues with enabling women to be more into technology careers. So, I'm curious if you have anything else that you think we should talk about with open source and how to make it more inclusive and have more voices at the table. REGINA: One of the things here is...and I feel like discussion there is a progressive discussion as open-source communities begin to grow, open-source ecosystem continues to grow. So, one of the things here is, basically, having programs that is geared towards under-representation people within the open-source ecosystem. And this program, I feel like, should be a program that encourages some certain level of incentives, you know, stipends for people that are going to be contributing. Because, like I said, in the past, open source has thrived more within Europe and the U.S. area. But in these areas, there are certain levels of opportunities that is presented. It's either the maintainer has good jobs, or they have projects that pays them on the side. So, they could easily give their free time to open-source contribution. But looking at the economy side of things and problems we have within areas like Africa and Asia, if you see people contributing or you want people to contribute to open source, there must be some other level of motivations that would get them to basically contribute to your project. So, there are programs like Outreachy. Outreachy is basically a program that helps women to contribute to open source, and they are paid a certain level of stipends at the end of three months, at the end of their contribution. We need to have more of such programs to encourage inclusive contribution into open source-projects. Because this way, we get more people that would not necessarily have an opportunity to become open-source contributors to come in to contribute. And also, [inaudible 18:29] more diverse voices in the open-source ecosystem. Another thing here is also that we need to also talk about one of the problems within open source at the moment, which is that we have less women representation, and I'm very glad you're very deep within community and Women Who Code as well. So, you will basically relate with this one. So, there are less women within the open-source ecosystem. And even the women that are contributing––they have challenges within the ways they are treated amongst maintenance. They have challenges even with how to prioritize what they are doing and to be able to also give their time to open source. So, these all challenges we need to begin to, you know, address them by giving voices to women within open source and helping them to solve some of these problems that they have within, you know, the communities that they are serving in. Another thing is to have representation in leadership, and I really cannot stress this enough. When I mean representation, it's having more women leaders because this is where the gap is here at the moment. I think the Linux Foundation had a particular research; I'm not very sure about the year. But it shows that we have about 93% of men in the open-source ecosystem, and that tells you what is left of women, you know, the percentage of women that we have within the open-source ecosystem. So, there's a whole lot of work we need to do to bring in more inclusiveness, to bring in more women into the open-source ecosystem. I'm not particularly sure about the exact statistics for that research, but I know it's around that range. Another thing is that we should encourage communities, open-source communities, to have separate channels where diverse voices can basically have their views about their community, so whether it is having to have a pool of questions geared towards, how do you think we are diverse? How diverse are we in this community? What can we do better? You know, taking metrics of your community is one way we can also bring in inclusivity into the open-source ecosystem. One of the last thing here that I would mention is events also––open-source events, has to also be conscious around people that are attending their events, around the different races, the different genders. This matrix needs to be taken to basically help to solve and bring more inclusivity into open-source community and open-source events. VICTORIA: You raised a lot of really great points there. And I won't even try to recap them all because I think I'll miss them [laughs]. But I think you're spot on with everything. It resonates with me, especially, like, working through Women Who Code; what you'll see is there's lots of people interested in joining. There's a drop-off rate around the mid-level of your career because of some of the things that you mentioned, the way that they're treated in the environments and in the communities, and not seeing a path forward to leadership. So, I think you're spot on with everything that you said there. And I'm curious; I want to make sure we make time to also talk about OpenKids Africa and your founding of that. And what was the goal or the idea behind it? REGINA: The idea behind it was basically my journey into tech. If you recall, I said I started my journey into tech after my bachelor's degree in public administration. And I felt like I could have done more with technology if I was aware about technology a bit more earlier in life. So, I wanted to create something and to build something that would give children an opportunity to have better career choices and possibly become technologists, or software engineer, or robotics engineer, or developers in future. But giving them the opportunity to know that this set of careers exist and they could actually make their choices from it. So, I grew up in Nigeria, like I said. And at the time I grew up, the trending careers were doctors, engineers, lawyers. And my parents actually wanted me to be a lawyer because, at the time, they believed that I was very good at arguments [chuckles]. I could argue a lot. And that basically quickly transcends to I can be a better lawyer. And also because lawyers, in those times, lawyers were very respected in the society. Now, don't get me wrong, lawyers are still respected. But at that time, it felt as though being a lawyer or being a doctor is the only way you're ever going to have a career in Nigeria. Having to feel like I disappointed my parents because I couldn't get into law...I had a diploma. I did a diploma in law program, but I did not get into my degree. So, I had to do something close, which was the public administration I took. Having to go through those whole process in my career and then finish my bachelor's and realizing that I was a bit better in a technology career, I felt like it was a bit late for me and that I would have taken a better chance at my career choices if I had known about technologies earlier. So, this is the motivation of creating OpenKids Africa is basically giving children an opportunity to know what they can do with technology, to know how technology cuts across different careers, and to make them realize that technology is no longer an option in your career choices; it's something that needs to be part of your career journey, whether they want to become doctors, whether they want to become technologists in future. Whatever they want to become, they need to have this basic foundation to thrive. So, that's basically what brought about OpenKids Africa. And my target is basically children in rural communities. And so, we are teaching children in rural communities several skills: how to code, how to understand basically foundational courses within technology. Recently, we went to different schools and giving them an experience of how virtual reality looks like. And it was really fun for these children because, like I said, they are in rural communities. They don't even have these opportunities in the first place, and except it is provided to them here. So, that's basically what we're doing. We're giving children in rural community an opportunity to experience technology and to make better career choices in the future. VICTORIA: I love that. And so, you found that the kids are really excited about learning about computers. Do you feel that the parents agree that technology is a good path for them to follow and study? REGINA: Well, I think that that's another part of OpenKids Africa. So, when I started OpenKids Africa, I wanted to explore the rural community and understand, basically, what are the unique cases that we have here? So that's part of those...I was exploring, basically. We found that some of the children would tell us that, "I like this, but my mom or my parent would not allow me to do this. They will not allow me to know how to use computers or to become maybe a technologist in future because my mom or my dad thinks I should be a doctor," and all of that. So, we had to remodel our strategy in a way that we now go to parents' associations in schools in rural communities. And we talk to them about technology, benefits of technology, and how they can encourage their children to learn technology, and also the future career choices for their children. And when we do this, when we speak to parents, we see the excitement of "Oh, so, my child can actually become this with this technology thing." And we also give them safety measures because, of course, there's so many things on the internet here. And there's safety tips for parents to know about, even if they want to allow their children to basically use computers and all of that, child control and all of those things. So, by talking to parents, we've realized that we have to have a two-model approach in OpenKids Africa, where we don't just teach the children and encourage the teachers to learn more about technology, but we also have to talk to the parents to allow their children to basically explore technology careers in the future, and also, showing them the opportunities that it will pose to them. So yeah, to be honest, this is one of the surprising things that I found, and it has continued to surprise me as a founder of OpenKids. VICTORIA: Well, that's, I think, a very common thing for founders is that you think you have one set of users, but there's actually another one [laughs] where it impacts you. REGINA: Exactly. Exactly [laughs]. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. Are you excited about on the horizon with either the GNOME Project or OpenKids Africa? REGINA: I will start with the GNOME Project. Right now, we are looking towards things like the Global Inclusive Initiative. And it's basically an initiative that we are looking to put together all the communities we have globally, giving more voices to diverse users to be able to contribute into GNOME. That is something on the pipeline that we're looking to plan. And I'm also excited for OpenKids Africa. So, right now, we are exploring how to get teachers in rural communities involved with what we're doing and basically train them separately as well to know the benefit of technology to children. So, the target teachers here are teachers that basically...early child education teachers and helping them to understand how to teach technology to children, and how to inspire children to appreciate technology innovation we have around the world, innovations like virtual reality, you know, robotics, and all of that. So, I'm really excited about that one because I feel like if you can tell the teachers how these things are and the benefits, and then they can better pass the message across to the children, making our work more easier when we have workshops and demos to do in schools, yeah. VICTORIA: And I've actually gotten this question quite a few times from people, which is, how do you get kids interested in learning [laughs] technology and learning how to code? REGINA: I think it's basically having a practice that is more child-friendly, co-creative. So, co-creation is basically, you are not the only one doing it. You're involving the children in it as well, and you give them the real-life experiences. So, for instance, when we went to talk about virtual reality to children, and we showed them what virtual reality does in the presentation, we engage with the kids. We make them give us their own ideas. We even go as far as allowing them to draw what they see and give us what they think about it. But we don't stop there. We get virtual sets and show them exactly...give them a real-life experience of what virtual reality is. So, children are very, very creative, and they also have a very fast mind to pick pictures. But not only that, they can also store experiences very, very fast. So, we utilize every area that makes children excited in our workshops. After we are done, we do practices, and we give them gifts as well for engaging in those practices. So yeah, we just co-creation [laughs]. VICTORIA: Wow. And you're doing so much because you have a full-time job. You're on the board for GNOME Project, and you have your non-profit, OpenKids Africa. So, how do you find a right balance in your life of work, and extra stuff, and your regular life [laughs]? REGINA: Honestly, I would say that the word balance I wouldn't use balance for me at the moment because I feel like I've not basically found the balance I'm looking for, but I've been able to prioritize. So, what that means is that I've been able to know what is important part-time and know when to take certain engagements. So, my full-time job is more, like, a priority right now because, of course, we need a job to be able to sustain our lives. So, I take that as my priority. And I have different schedule of days for other things like the GNOME community and working with my team in OpenKids Africa. So, I would say I'm quite lucky to have a very good team. And also, being part of GNOME board, the commitments are not as demanding as you would expect, you know, maybe a regular board. There are fixed schedules on things, and they have flexible time for contribution as well. I'm also part of the GNOME Africa community. And I recently just on-boarded a community manager because I realized that I need more, like, to take a step back so that I don't get burned out and all of that. So, I think it's basically prioritizing for me at the moment to gain the balance that I'm looking for. So, I think if I have a conversation with you maybe months after now, I would be able to know what balance feels like. So, I'm really experimenting with prioritizing at the moment. VICTORIA: We'll have to check back in in a few months and see how things are going. But I think that's a very honest answer, and I appreciate that. And I think that probably relates to how a lot of people feel, honestly, even having less on their plate that it's hard to find that balance. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I wonder, too, if you had any advice for yourself. If you could go back in time, either when you were first starting on your journey or when you were first starting on either of these projects, what advice would you give yourself? REGINA: I think one of the things...I will talk about first starting on my technology career. I didn't have the opportunities that many young people had at the time because I didn't come from a background where my parents had the finances to basically give me the opportunity to learn technology the way I wanted to. But, I was able to make do with the resources I had at the time to learn and to basically grow. So, an advice I will give to my younger self and to anybody that wants to come into technology that do not have the resources, I would say leverage open-source tools as much as you can because now I realize that that's basically what helped me. And also, allow yourself to grow; it will always get better. Advice I would give to somebody coming into an open-source project like me at the GNOME Project. I think that one of the things that...understand why you're contributing to that project, and always seek to be treated fairly, always seek to be treated nicely. And also treat other people nicely and fairly as well. I think if we have these both balance, we'll have a better, healthy community within open source. And don't be scared to share your view. Don't be scared to basically be yourself wherever you are found in the community that you're representing. And if I would like to add: OpenKids Africa, for me, if anyone would be...it's, I would say, it's still young because we are going, I think, about our third year now. So, I will say it's still young. But what I would say to any founder that wants to basically found a non-profit or do something in the society, I think, is just to get your motivation, understand why you're doing them, and be open-minded to what you'll learn along the way. That's it. VICTORIA: I think that's great. Yeah, I love that. And I like that you mentioned that there are open-source tools out there. I'm trying to use those more, and I think I always try to iterate that for people, too, is, like, there's free training. There's free resources. There's free tools. And there are lots of people who want to see you succeed, no matter your background, or where you're from, or what you look like. So, I think that that's a really powerful message. So, I appreciate that. And do you have anything else that you would like to promote? REGINA: I think before that, I would like to learn more about the Women Who Code. As a community builder, what basically surprised you the most? VICTORIA: Yeah. So, what I loved about Women Who Code is that it was really aimed at helping women get started in careers in technology and maintaining careers in technology. So, I think what was interesting for me...I think I started doing it back in 2017 or 2018, and I just loved it. I loved going to a tech meetup with a room where it's all women [laughs]. Because, normally, and I'm sure you've had this experience, you go to a tech meetup, and you're maybe one of two, at the best, of women in the group. I just really enjoyed that. And I've been really surprised and happy to see how the women, including myself, who started running the meetups, and doing trainings, and helping other women learn how to code have really advanced in their career and become directors, or engineering managers, or really senior contributors in different companies. So, I think that that was a really interesting and surprising thing for people is, like, well, if you want to grow in your career, it helps to be active in your community and to be someone that people know and to have those connections. And I think it still surprises me to this day how my network that I got from investing in all of those meetups and all that time is still paying off [laughs]. Like, I could still, like, reach back into my network and find someone who is an expert on a particular subject or works at a company that I want to talk to or something like that. So, I think that that's been a really wonderful aspect of it. REGINA: Wow, that's quite interesting. And I really think, also I agree with you. One of the beautiful things around communities and meetups is basically networks, the people that you get to meet, the people that you get to know along the way. VICTORIA: Absolutely. Yeah, and those are the people that you want to keep working with. So, it helps you find jobs. It helps you find people to hire if you're hiring. It's worth it. Like [laughs], it can feel like, ugh, am I really going to go to this meetup [laughter], like, after work, after a long day? And, you know, maybe the topic is even something I'm not interested in. But it does pay off if you keep showing up and continue to invest in it. Yeah, I think that's smart. And make people feel safe, too. I think that was a big part of it is, you know, going to a meetup and meeting someone maybe like me who's nice and friendly and wants to hear your voice. I think that has a big impact for people, especially if they're, you know, the only woman at their company. And now they have a whole set of friends [laughs]. That's, yeah, how powerful that can be for people. REGINA: Exactly. Exactly. And you just said one of the most important things, and that's basically making people feel safe, making them welcomed as well. Interesting. Thank you for sharing that one because I was quite curious, and I wanted to really learn more. VICTORIA: Yeah, I'm very lucky. And we actually had the CEO and founder of Women Who Code on our podcast lately. So, you're in good company [laughs]. REGINA: Nice. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's wonderful. Do you have any other questions for me? REGINA: My last question, and I'm going to be asking again that I will be inviting you on my podcast as well [inaudible 37:32] [laughs] VICTORIA: Yes. Of course, yes. Absolutely. Send me the details. I'd be happy to join. All right. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. I really appreciate your time. And for our listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guest: Regina Nkenchor.

In this episode, the focus is on RubyConf, the upcoming conference dedicated to the Ruby programming language. They start by talking about the origin and evolution of RubyConf, highlighting its growth in attendance and its impact on the Ruby community. Chelsea details how the conference has adapted to the digital format due to the COVID-19 pandemic but points out the value of in-person connections. They are looking forward to the Community Day event, which will feature various activities to encourage community interaction and an acknowledgment of scholarships that would help more people attend. The event will offer various programming options, workshops, and talks to cater to newcomers and seasoned professionals. There will also be some level of hands-on learning through hacking activities. The conference aims to be inclusive, offering opportunities for mentorship and growth, regardless of one's career stage. Towards the end, the discussion shifts to Ruby Central, the organizing body behind RubyConf and RailsConf. Chelsea and Allison describe multiple avenues for community engagement, ranging from board membership to open-source contributions. They also encourage donations and corporate sponsorships. Don't miss your chance to register for RubyConf and engage with the fantastic Ruby community! RubyConf (https://rubyconf.org/) Follow RubyConf on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/ruby-central-inc/), X (https://twitter.com/rubyconf), YouTube (), or Mastodon (https://ruby.social/@rubyconf). Learn Academy (https://learnacademy.org/) Follow Learn Academy on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/LEARNSD/), X (https://twitter.com/SDLEARN), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/school/sd-learn/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/sdlearn/). Follow Chelsea Kaufman on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelskaufman/) or X (https://twitter.com/ChelsKaufman). Follow Allison McMillan on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/apmcmillan/) or X (https://twitter.com/allie_p). Visit her website at daydreamsinruby.com (https://daydreamsinruby.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Allison McMillan and Chelsea Kaufman, Board Directors, and RubyConf '23 Co-chairs. Thank you for joining me. ALLISON: Hi, thanks for having us. CHELSEA: Thanks for having us. VICTORIA: Yes, I'm glad that you were able to make time to come on the show today. I understand, Allison, that you've been having very full weeks with family over the last month. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that? ALLISON: Yeah, it's...we have just ended what I call the gauntlet of Jewish holidays. But, basically, there are four Jewish holidays starting with Rosh Hashanah, which many folks know that's the Jewish New Year. But what a lot of folks don't know is that there are actually four holidays that are all in a row, each about a week apart. And you do different celebratory things for each of them. And so, it's been really amazing and fun, and lots of, like, sharing our home with others and meals and seeing lots of people. But it is also exhausting. And they basically all fell on weekends this year, which was nice from sort of a scheduling perspective but was exhausting in the fact that I basically have not had a weekend in over a month. So, it was wonderful and tiring. And I am, I guess, both happy and sad that they're over now. VICTORIA: Yeah, that does sound like a lot of quality family time, which has its pros and cons [laughs], right? So, after going through that, do you feel more rested? Or what do you feel like you need to do in order to recuperate and return to your normal energy levels after having every weekend full after that? ALLISON: Oh, that's a great question. I've been looking at my calendar to be like, I should take a day off. I should take a break. I'm working for myself and [inaudible 02:02] entrepreneur consultant. So, I do have the flexibility to do so, but it is hard to look at my calendar and be like, yes, I will take this day off because I deserve it. But, ideally, I would take a day or multiple days off. VICTORIA: Yes. And some of us are lucky enough to have a reason to travel for work purposes and to sneak in a little vacation and be productive [laughs] in our companies. So, I'm curious, Chelsea, if you can tell me a little bit about the option for people to come to San Diego in November and take a restful vacation by the beach and learn a little bit more about Ruby. CHELSEA: Yeah, so RubyConf will be in San Diego this year. As a native San-dieagan, I am a bit biased, but November is a beautiful time to be in San Diego. And we're going to be at the Town and Country, which feels a little bit like we're going to be in a, like, Palm Springs resort. They just went through a major renovation. And there's these really awesome, like, lounge areas with fire pits and just places for people to gather, which really kind of aligns itself with some of the stuff that we're planning because we're really trying to focus in on just connecting Rubyists together. So, to me, it feels like the perfect place because I think San Diego is, one, we're a little bit more low key, a little chill. And it's a great place to just gather and connect and share with people that have, you know, similar interests. VICTORIA: Yes, I live in San Diego now, but I was from Washington, D.C., And I would come and visit my family in San Diego once a year. And they would always go on about how great it is and how beautiful, and everyone is so happy and chill. And I was like, sure, whatever. And then we [chuckles] had the opportunity to move here, and now I'm one of those people who says that [laughs]. Like, it's great, especially in November. Everywhere else is getting a little cold and fall. And San Diego has a little bit of fall, but it's still 75 degrees out. I forget what that is in Celsius. But yes, I'm also super excited. CHELSEA: We have, like, fake fall activities that you can go do. Like, Allison, when you're talking about doing all the family activities and things like that, you know, this is when we start thinking about, oh, we need to go to, like, the pumpkin patch and apple picking and do all these things, but it's not cold or, like, fall weather at all. So, you want to get all, like, bundled up in your cute fall clothes or, like, put my kids and bundle them up in cute things. But then they're, like, sweating and trying to do [laughs] all these funny activities. But I think that there's so many beautiful things to do here that we, like, try and do these, like, fall activities. But then we just end up at the beach and play in the sand [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yeah, I will go out in, like, shorts and a T-shirt because it's that kind of weather. And my neighbors will be wearing full puffy jackets and [laughs], like, long pants and a hat. And they're like, "You're not from around here, are you?" [laughs]. It's like, you guys are silly. But it's fun. Yeah, there's seasons, I think, you know, in November...I made a list of suggested activities for my team members since thoughtbot is sponsoring RubyConf this year. And we're going to have a couple of speakers at the event. And we'll have other thoughtboters available at our booth for people to come up and chat with us. So, I'm really thrilled to be hosting everyone. And I made a list of, like, activities, and most of them were about where to see cool animals [laughs]. I was like, of course, there's the zoo, which is the obvious one, but then there's baby leopard sharks, and there's a season for them. I think they will still be around in November; I'm curious if you know, Chelsea, actually. And then there's, like, the safari parks, and whale watching, and the sea lions at La Jolla and, like, just a bunch of cool animals to see that I think it makes San Diego really special. CHELSEA: I agree. The zoo, the safari park are great places to just hang out and see some really cool exhibits. Balboa Park, the museums there are amazing. Liberty Station is one of my favorite places to go; that it's an old historic naval training center that's been converted into an arts and culture area. So, they have, like, little shops. They have...there's museums. There's brew pubs. There's coffee shops. And then there's beautiful, like, grassy areas, and right by the water, it's one of my favorite places to just go and hang out. ALLISON: This is great. I've done zero research on San Diego so far. So, just, like, I'm writing notes of what things to do and see while I'm there. CHELSEA: Yeah, I know the San Diego Ruby group is trying to put together some, like, local events and things that people can gather and do together. I know that there was a talk about doing a taco crawl. I think if I say that on the podcast, it might actually push them to do it because there are some amazing tacos in San Diego to be had. VICTORIA: Yes, I love that taco crawl. I'll reach out to them because I'll help put something like that together. I'm writing a blog post right now about all of these things and about all the other kind of events that are coming up in San Diego this fall. Great location, great time of year to be here. Tell me a little bit more about RubyConf specifically. And what are you all trying to do different this year than in past events? ALLISON: There are a bunch of things that we're doing differently. Our goal this year with this RubyConf is really to sort of focus on more ways to bring the community together. I think in the last little bit so much excitement around Ruby and Ruby Central and just sort of the community in general. It's a hard time in tech. I think people need to be sort of choosier about sort of what they attend and why they're attending something. And so, we really wanted to help folks connect with each other, help folks get to know other people, help folks sort of reconnect to ways that they love Ruby and the Ruby community and being a Ruby programmer. So, one of the things that we're doing differently is we have a three-day conference. And the way that that sort of broken down is the first day is a Community Day. And the first day is comprised of the workshops, as well as sort of this Hack Day, where people can bring their own projects. We're going to have people there that folks can hack with, sort of open-source projects that folks can work on, all sorts of different stuff. So that people can really sort of get to know one another, work with one another, work with people that they might, you know, admire or have followed in the community for a while, and have that sort of really special experience that doesn't feel as conference-y, right? It feels a little bit more sort of organic in terms of the way that the day will flow and, the options that people have, and sort of what that day looks like. And then following that, we have two days of sort of RubConf with talks and speakers, et cetera. And I'll let Chelsea add anything to Community Day and then also jump into some of the sort of new and different things we're doing at RubyConf. CHELSEA: I agree with Allison in that we've really wanted to focus in on the connection side of things. But I think coming out of the last few years, out of even the last year that's been tough in the industry, just finding ways for people to connect, support, lift up each other, I think that that was something we really wanted to do. And we didn't want it to just be about going and seeing speakers. We wanted to find more ways for people to learn from each other, to connect. And so we added in quite a few of these community connection points. So, on that first day, there's a lot of community aspects to it. We have a lot of learning happening with our workshops and also working on projects, hacking together, showing off what you're working on, connecting with people in the community. It's going to be really focused in on everyone's own skills and talents and coming together and supporting each other in where we're at in our careers, in our learning. And then, the next couple of days will look a little bit familiar in the way that it is structured with some new aspects kind of woven in. We'll have our Community Room, where we're bringing different community groups together so that people can learn more about what is going on in the community, how they can support, how they can connect. And in addition to seeing and learning about some of the new things happening in the Ruby community, we'll also have our Career Pathways room again, which will be a place for people to support their own careers. And that room was really set up so that it wasn't just about early career, but also about folks in their mid and senior careers, and finding the advice, finding the resources, finding the mentorship that they might need in whatever stage of their career that they're at, and figuring out how we can together as a community grow as a whole. VICTORIA: I really appreciate the focus on community. And, for me, as managing director at thoughtbot, in deciding to invest in which conferences we want to attend and sponsor, we find more value in groups that are trying to bring people together around a common passion and purpose versus a particular product. But I'd like to hear from each of you if you can tell me, what does the community mean to you? And I'm looking for, like, a personal story on how you've benefited or how you've engaged with the Ruby community in the past. And what makes you motivated as CEOs and founders of your own companies [laughs] to spend all this time organizing a conference? ALLISON: Many, many, many years ago, I did a Rails Girls workshop. It was actually my first introduction into the tech community, into programming in general. And, for me, really, I did Rails Girls. I did not actually expect to like programming. But I was sort of launching a startup, and I wanted to learn more about tech and blah, blah, blah. And at the end of the day, I was, like, so energized and so excited about what I had built and what I had done. The Ruby community in D.C., who I always think is just a group of really special individuals, was so supportive, was so wonderful, was so, like, "Here's where we co-work on Wednesdays. Come to this coffee shop. Here's how you can keep learning," just was so encouraging. You know, I went to the local Ruby meetup sort of really not knowing anything. And they were excited about, you know, newbies being there and asking questions and, you know, really sort of getting to know folks who are just starting out in their programming journey. And really, through that, I mean, I went to my first RubyConf as a scholar. Was strongly encouraged to do a lightning talk, did a lightning talk. That's how I, you know, sort of ended up having a whole bunch of informational interviews and having conversations with folks. And really, that's how I got my first real job in tech. And so, you know, I want people that are coming into the industry now to have that same support, to have those same opportunities, to have that same encouragement. And, for me, sort of planning RubyConf, planning these conferences, being a part of Ruby Central is really me giving back to the community that has gotten me to where I am today, right? And it's amazing, also, to just...I'm still in touch with the people that were at my table, sort of guiding and mentoring at that first Rails Girls session or the people who I met at the first-ever Ruby meetup that I went to. I still talk to them. I'm still in touch with them. We still get together. I still ask them for, you know, advice and guidance sometimes. And sometimes, they ask me, at this point, for advice and guidance, which is fun. But yeah, it just means so much to me that I have really been able to get to where I'm at because of the support and encouragement of the community. CHELSEA: I have a similar story. I guess over, gosh, over a decade ago, I also went to my first RailsBridge and got introduced to the community there at RailsBridge. And, you know, at the time, I wasn't in tech. I was in the theater. I come from the performing arts. I had spent a very long time executive leadership in the theater. And I got introduced to this community that was so warm and welcoming to people wanting to learn and grow. And I was so interested in how communities are built and how people connect together that I started getting more and more involved in the Ruby community here in San Diego. And just like Allison was saying about the welcoming and warmth that she felt from the D.C. community, I felt the same way here in San Diego. Before that, you know, I had spent so many years being the only woman in a room. I had been in an industry that made me feel like my voice was not always heard. And when I walked into this room, I felt like I mattered. I felt like people wanted to hear what I had to say. And they wanted to learn from my experiences. And in 2014, San Diego hosted RubyConf here. And at that point, my business partner and I launched our business, LEARN Academy, and it's still running strong today. But it was about creating that on-ramp for people and a launchpad into this industry where they could make a difference and they could have their voice heard. And they could be a part of a conversation, even if they hadn't been a part of that community for many, many years, that their background mattered, that their growth mattered. And helping people find their voice at a table is something that is so important to me that I love being able to bring that into the planning of this conference, into a lot of the work that I've done with Ruby Central, with LEARN academy. And really just helping people understand that just because you don't have the traditional background, maybe you didn't start programming at the age of two, you can have a different background and a different path and still provide so much value. And I think that that is the thing that I wanted to continue to be a part of and to make sure was a part of the conversation, that we need so many different types of people at the table. And I want to make sure that our community is responsive to that, that it's inclusive to that, that it's equitable as best we can, and just allows people to share their own experiences. And so, you know, I feel like, for me, we're, you know, almost at our 10-year mark at LEARN academy and that we were launching the company at RubyConf in 2014. To have it here again this year is so special to me. I remember being at the conference many years ago; you know, we spend a lot of time helping companies figure out how to work with early-career developers and to create those pipelines for them so that there's career growth for them. And, you know, I remember sitting around the table and just saying, "Hey, who wants an internship? Who wants to, you know, help these early-career developers?" And everyone raised their hand, and we found some of our very first partners at that conference. And it's always been such a warm and welcoming community that has allowed me to feel like I have a voice and then allows me to help other people find theirs. VICTORIA: Wow, thank you both for sharing that. I totally relate to that feeling of a welcoming community and just getting the sense that, like, wow, everyone who does Ruby is really nice [laughs]. And I think that you know, for me, same as Allison, starting in D.C., there were quite a few people who were involved in Women Who Code who were running Ruby meetups. And that's where I met Valerie Woolard, who I think is also coming to San Diego for RubyConf. I'm excited to see her again. And it's interesting for me coming from that perspective and hearing that from both of you because I've also heard a viewpoint on Ruby community as being highly opinionated and causing certain amounts of consternation. So, I'm curious if you have any comments on that. If not, otherwise, I'm grateful that there are people working to bring that better community in the community that I'm more familiar with more to the forefront and making it more inclusive and open for everyone. So, to, like, bring the question all the way back, it's like [chuckles], do you have any comments on, like, if there's a tendency for Rubyists to be really highly opinionated? Or what else can we do to make it more open and inclusive for people to join the community? CHELSEA: I mean, I think that people are going to be opinionated about something that they care a lot about. And I think that the thing that I've noticed in the Ruby community is people love this language. They love programming in this language, and I think that there's something very powerful about that. And it does, you know, lend itself to people [laughs] having very strong opinions about what they think needs to be out there. And, to me, it's not a matter of, like, whether we have strong opinions or not. It has more to do with whether we're listening or not. But I think it's really important for those of us who are leading to be the listeners, and that we should be there to make sure that there is space for people to be heard, whether their opinion is loud or not. And I think that there are people that are going to be louder than others; that is going to be true no matter where we go. But I think that as long as there is intention around making sure that we are listening to even the quietest voices and that we are creating space for the quietest voices, that's where we're going to find more collaboration. But if we're only going out there and saying, "This is the way it needs to be," and we're not willing to listen to anything else, then I think that growth will stop happening because we need to listen to everyone. We need to be able to create some kind of place for people to come together and share ideas; you know, you don't get the perspectives of all these amazing people in the industry. So, that's why I feel like, you know, I've been on the board at Ruby Central for about a year now, and the biggest thing that I feel like I can contribute is to simply listen. If I can help in any way of filtering ideas or creating connections with people because I've been putting my ear to the ground and saying, "Okay, these people are talking about this, and we're expanding here." And we just want to make sure that we're doing the best we can at being open to all different kinds of ideas and not closing anyone off. Maybe your opinion is really strong. It doesn't mean that we should shut you down. It just means that we need to make sure that there's space for other people, too. And I think that that's the part that, you know, as someone who has always been a bit of an introvert, a bit of a wallflower, I understand how hard it is to get my voice out there. And so, I often fight for the quiet people. I think in every language and any space where it's a craft, it's something that we're creating, people get really passionate about it. And that's going to happen. And I think there's something powerful in that because there's going to be change that happens from that. But if we're not doing our part in the listening and making sure that there isn't just one voice, that there's a collective voice, that's the part that I felt so powerful when I joined the community so many years ago was that, even though I had, you know, months of experience, my questions mattered. And as long as we hold on to that, the community will continue to grow. But those of us at Ruby Central and some of the other organizations, if we're creating space to allow people to question, allow people to speak their opinions and listen, then I think that the industry, the community will just continue to thrive because of that. But we have to be open, and we have to be compassionate when we're doing our listening. ALLISON: Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I would just add in safe places, in a way that we're creating sort of safe structures and safe places for folks to communicate. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: What, if you could tell me, what does Ruby really have going for it? Like what makes Ruby a good choice for tech founders or for new companies would make someone decide they want to build with Ruby? ALLISON: First, it's a little bit about just sort of the ease of the language to jump into and to understand, right? There's a lot that you can get done very quickly with Ruby and Rails. And in addition to sort of individuals being able to work in it, there's a whole community of resources, and support, and podcasts, and tutorials, and all sorts of stuff. I know that as an engineering leader at any company, when engineers are coming to me with, like, the desire to use a new language or try something new, part of what I look at is, if I'm going to hire, like, what would hiring look like? What does it look like for engineers to have to ramp up in this area? How long does that take? What resources are available? What sort of community am I pulling from and looking at? And that's both community in terms of sort of technical experience, expertise, years, et cetera, but also non-technical skills, right? What does the community look like in terms of some of those ideals around communication, collaboration, just sort of general pieces like that? And so, I think that, given sort of the strength of open source, strength of community, community contributions, ways to contribute, etcetera, I think that's one of the reasons that it still makes Ruby a really strong choice for folks to build in and to work with. VICTORIA: What type of people, what personas do you think will be the most interested in attending RubyConf? Is it all just going to be, like, senior or super Ruby developers, or what? CHELSEA: Oh, I don't think so. I mean, this RubyConf, in particular, is great for anyone on a learning journey. We've worked really hard to make sure there's a good breadth of programming for different folks in different stages of their careers. I think that, you know, those of you that are maybe earlier on there, this is a great opportunity to meet people who are maybe even a step or two ahead of you. I think that the best mentorship that you can find is someone who is only maybe a year ahead of you because they're going to recognize where you're at and help you along the way. And I think that there's a lot of opportunities here for that. I think that with our Community Day, the hacking that's going to be involved, like, maybe, as a new developer, you wouldn't be able to come in and, like, get your hands really dirty. But you'll get to sit next to somebody who has been through all the different stages and get to watch, and explore, and learn. I think that making those connections could be really great for anyone's career. I think that our mid-level developers, folks that are our management, there's great resources for them to connect with other developers in similar stages. There's great workshops. Because of our focus on the community, I think that it's going to be a place where you can really connect with other Rubyists. And so, if you are at a stage in your career that you want to figure out what that next spring is, where that next ladder step is, this is a good place to see all the different options because you're going to be surrounded by people in all different stages of their careers. And what we've, I think, said now quite a few times is so many people there are just so excited to help people continue that growth. And so, I think that no matter what stage you're in, you're going to find people there that are excited to help you along the way. That being said, I think for our more senior, more advanced, our executive leadership, this is going to be a great place to, one, meet some really great talent, and, two, I think, learn from other folks in the industry of, like, where people are at, what we're struggling with, and how we're changing and doing things differently. So, I really do think there's going to be a little bit of everything for people. And what I love about that is really that it gets to the core and heart of the Ruby community because we're so excited about new folks coming in that that growth continues, that you have folks like Allison who started out as a scholar and want to give back. And then because we have folks at all those different stages, you can find people that are, you know, maybe a step or two ahead of you that are going to be able to help bring you up to that next level. So, I think it's an exciting opportunity for people to really meet new people, learn some new things, maybe find a little bit of encouragement, empowerment on where you're going to go next on your career. VICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me of an article I read while I was at RailsConf earlier this year about why we do conferences and what's the whole point. And, you know, for me, all of those things are true, like, all those values. As an executive, I'm going to meet a lot of great talent. I'm going to connect with other companies. I'm just going to get to show up and say hi to people and ask them questions in a way that's very informal. And that's so valuable to have that. I think where I was going to go next with this was with Ruby Central, which I believe organizes both RailsConf and RubyConf. (And you can correct me if I'm wrong on that.) I'm curious if there are anything else you want to talk about with, like how the community can engage in support and how other companies could get involved with the community and show their support. CHELSEA: I think that there's quite a few different ways for folks to get involved. We are currently recruiting board members. We just finished a round just now. But I know that in our planning, that we're likely going to bring on at least one, maybe two more, in the next six months. So, I definitely...for folks in the community that want to get involved, that is a really great place to really get involved with Ruby Central. We also have a really strong open-source community. And we're working, oh gosh, with quite a few different companies now that are really helping to support our open-source efforts. And those are also good ways to get involved. You know, we do plan both RailsConf and RubyConf. RailsConf will be in the spring again. And, you know, it takes a village to put on a conference like this and that, you know, we also look for programming committee members to help us shape the program of the conferences. So, if you are interested in any of that, that's also another great way to get involved in the community. We have an amazing programming committee that's helped us with RubyConf. And I'm excited to see what we do next with RailsConf. And I think that you know if you're one that's going to the conference and are saying, "Man, I wish that they would do this," or "I wish I could see that," come and talk to us because that's the best way for us to learn, that we want to hear all of those pieces. But don't be surprised if we then send you an email and say, "Hey, you want to be on our programming committee with us?" ALLISON: I'll add that we also, through our website, we take donations. So, if you want to help monetarily, there's the option to do that on the website. And if you're a company, I mean, we're always looking for conference sponsorships. But if your company also is interested in getting involved in sort of more of a corporate sense of sponsoring or supporting Ruby Central, we are always open to those conversations. You can send an email to contact@rubycentral.org. VICTORIA: That's great. I have a fun question about the conference because I'm leading the event with thoughtbot since I live here. And I'm thinking about some fun swag to give away. Rank your preferences on what kind of swag you'd like to see at the thoughtbot sponsor booth: a thoughtbot-branded surfboard or, a boogie board, a bucket hat, or a pickleball paddle. Any of those interesting for you? ALLISON: Wait, when you say surfboard, like, how am I going to get a surfboard back to D.C.? [laughter] VICTORIA: Okay. I think it's, like, kind of funny because if you win it, it's like, well, what do you do? [laughter] You got to shake it back. That sounds like maybe a boogie board. CHELSEA: Yeah, I'm down for a boogie board. VICTORIA: Thank you so [laughs] much for entertaining me on that one. Is there anything else that you would like to promote today? ALLISON: We would love to see everybody at RubyConf. You can register. Check out the program speakers, et cetera, at rubyconf.org. You can learn more about Ruby Central at rubycentral.org. Those are, I think, the two things that we'd love to make sure everybody knows about. CHELSEA: And if you're here in San Diego, come say hello. VICTORIA: Yes, I have met up with a few random people from the internet [laughs] who have said like, "I'm in San Diego. Who should I say hi [inaudible 34:02]?" I was like, "Me, me, me," [laughter]. So, yes, I'm very happy to meet up for drinks. Chelsea, you and I will have to get together sometime soon before the conference. And I'm super excited for RubyConf. And thank you both so much for being here today. ALLISON: Thanks for having us. CHELSEA: Thank you. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantsrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Allison McMillan and Chelsea Kaufman.

Victoria is joined by guest co-host Joe Ferris, CTO at thoughtbot, and Seif Lotfy, the CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom. Seif discusses the journey, challenges, and strategies behind his data analytics and observability platform. Seif, who has a background in robotics and was a 2008 Sony AIBO robotic soccer world champion, shares that Axiom pivoted from being a Datadog competitor to focusing on logs and event data. The company even built its own logs database to provide a cost-effective solution for large-scale analytics. Seif is driven by his passion for his team and the invaluable feedback from the community, emphasizing that sales validate the effectiveness of a product. The conversation also delves into Axiom's shift in focus towards developers to address their need for better and more affordable observability tools. On the business front, Seif reveals the company's challenges in scaling across multiple domains without compromising its core offerings. He discusses the importance of internal values like moving with urgency and high velocity to guide the company's future. Furthermore, he touches on the challenges and strategies of open-sourcing projects and advises avoiding platforms like Reddit and Hacker News to maintain focus. Axiom (https://axiom.co/) Follow Axiom on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/axiomhq/), X (https://twitter.com/AxiomFM), GitHub (https://github.com/axiomhq), or Discord (https://discord.com/invite/axiom-co). Follow Seif Lotfy on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/seiflotfy/) or X (https://twitter.com/seiflotfy). Visit his website at seif.codes (https://seif.codes/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Seif Lotfy, CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom, the best home for your event data. Seif, thank you for joining me. SEIF: Hey, everybody. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. I love the name of the podcast, given that I used to compete in robotics. VICTORIA: What? All right, we're going to have to talk about that. And I also want to introduce a guest co-host today. Since we're talking about cloud, and observability, and data, I invited Joe Ferris, thoughtbot CTO and Director of Development of our platform engineering team, Mission Control. Welcome, Joe. How are you? JOE: Good, thanks. Good to be back again. VICTORIA: Okay. I am excited to talk to you all about observability. But I need to go back to Seif's comment on competing with robots. Can you tell me a little bit more about what robots you've built in the past? SEIF: I didn't build robots; I used to program them. Remember the Sony AIBOs, where Sony made these dog robots? And we would make them compete. There was an international competition where we made them play soccer, and they had to be completely autonomous. They only communicate via Bluetooth or via wireless protocols. And you only have the camera as your sensor as well as...a chest sensor throws the ball near you, and then yeah, you make them play football against each other, four versus four with a goalkeeper and everything. Just look it up: RoboCup AIBO. Look it up on YouTube. And I...2008 world champion with the German team. VICTORIA: That sounds incredible. What kind of crowds are you drawing out for a robot soccer match? Is that a lot of people involved with that? SEIF: You would be surprised how big the RoboCup competition is. It's ridiculous. VICTORIA: I want to go. I'm ready. I want to, like, I'll look it up and find out when the next one is. SEIF: No more Sony robots but other robots. Now, there's two-legged robots. So, they make them play as two-legged robots, much slower than four-legged robots, but works. VICTORIA: Wait. So, the robots you were playing soccer with had four legs they were running around on? SEIF: Yeah, they were dogs [laughter]. VICTORIA: That's awesome. SEIF: We all get the same robot. It's just a competition on software, right? On a software level. And some other competitions within the RoboCup actually use...you build your own robot and stuff like that. But this one was...it's called the Standard League, where we all have a robot, and we have to program it. JOE: And the standard robot was a dog. SEIF: Yeah, I think back then...we're talking...it's been a long time. I think it started in 2001 or something. I think the competition started in 2001 or 2002. And I compete from 2006 to 2008. Robots back then were just, you know, simple. VICTORIA: Robots today are way too complicated [laughs]. SEIF: Even AI is more complicated. VICTORIA: That's right. Yeah, everything has gotten a lot more complicated [laughs]. I'm so curious how you went from being a world-champion robot dog soccer player [laughs] programmer [laughs] to where you are today with Axiom. Can you tell me a little bit more about your journey? SEIF: The journey is interesting because it came from open source. I used to do open source on the side a lot–part of the GNOME Project. That's where I met Neil and the rest of my team, Mikkel Kamstrup, the whole crowd, basically. We worked on GNOME. We worked on Ubuntu. Like, most of them were working professionally on it. I was working for another company, but we worked on the same project. We ended up at Xamarin, which was bought by Microsoft. And then we ended up doing Axiom. But we've been around each other professionally since 2009, most of us. It's like a little family. But how we ended up exactly in observability, I think it's just trying to fix pain points in my life. VICTORIA: Yeah, I was reading through the docs on Axiom. And there's an interesting point you make about organizations having to choose between how much data they have and how much they want to spend on it. So, maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that pain point and what you really found in the early stages that you wanted to solve. SEIF: So, the early stages of what we wanted to solve we were mainly dealing with...so, the early, early stage, we were actually trying to be a Datadog competitor, where we were going to be self-hosted. Eventually, we focused on logs because we found out that's what was a big problem for most people, just event data, not just metric but generally event data, so logs, traces, et cetera. We built out our own logs database completely from scratch. And one of the things we stumbled upon was; basically, you have three things when it comes to logging, which is low cost, low latency, and large scale. That's what everybody wants. But you can't get all three of them; you can only get two of them. And we opted...like, we chose large scale and low cost. And when it comes to latency, we say it should be just fast enough, right? And that's where we focused on, and this is how we started building it. And with that, this is how we managed to stand out by just having way lower cost than anybody else in the industry and dealing with large scale. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And how did you approach making the ingestion pipeline for masses amount of data more efficient? SEIF: Just make it coordination-free as possible, right? And get rid of Kafka because Kafka just, you know, drains your...it's where you throw in money. Like maintaining Kafka...it's like back then Elasticsearch, right? Elasticsearch was the biggest part of your infrastructure that would cost money. Now, it's also Kafka. So, we found a way to have our own internal way of queueing things without having to rely on Kafka. As I said, we wrote everything from scratch to make it work. Like, every now and then, I think that we can spin this out of the company and make it a new product. But now, eyes on the prize, right? JOE: It's interesting to hear that somebody who spent so much time in the open-source community ended up rolling their own solution to so many problems. Do you feel like you had some lessons learned from open source that led you to reject solutions like Kafka, or how did that journey go? SEIF: I don't think I'm rejecting Kafka. The problem is how Kafka is built, right? Kafka is still...you have to set up all these servers. They have to communicate, et cetera, etcetera. They didn't build it in a way where it's stateless, and that's what we're trying to go to. We're trying to make things as stateless as possible. So, Kafka was never built for the cloud-native era. And you can't really rely on SQS or something like that because it won't deal with this high throughput. So, that's why I said, like, we will sacrifice some latency, but at least the cost is low. So, if messages show after half a second or a second, I'm good. It doesn't have to be real-time for me. So, I had to write a couple of these things. But also, it doesn't mean that we reject open source. Like, we actually do like open source. We open-source a couple of libraries. We contribute back to open source, right? We needed a solution back then for that problem, and we couldn't find any. And maybe one day, open source will have, right? JOE: Yeah. I was going to ask if you considered open-sourcing any of your high latency, high throughput solutions. SEIF: Not high latency. You make it sound bad. JOE: [laughs] SEIF: You make it sound bad. It's, like, fast enough, right? I'm not going to compete on milliseconds because, also, I'm competing with ClickHouse. I don't want to compete with ClickHouse. ClickHouse is low latency and large scale, right? But then the cost is, you know, off the charts a bit sometimes. I'm going the other route. Like, you know, it's fast enough. Like, how, you know, if it's under two, three seconds, everybody's happy, right? If the results come within two, three seconds, everybody is happy. If you're going to build a real-time trading system on top of it, I'll strongly advise against that. But if you're building, you know, you're looking at dashboards, you're more in the observability field, yeah, we're good. VICTORIA: Yeah, I'm curious what you found, like, which customer personas that market really resonated with. Like, is there a particular, like, industry type where you're noticing they really want to lower their cost, and they're okay with this just fast enough latency? SEIF: Honestly, with the current recession, everybody is okay with giving up some of the speed to reduce the money because I think it's not linear reduction. It's more exponential reduction at this point, right? You give up a second, and you're saving 30%. You give up two seconds, all of a sudden, you're saving 80%. So, I'd say in the beginning, everybody thought they need everything to be very, very fast. And now they're realizing, you know, with limitations you have around your budget and spending, you're like, okay, I'm okay with the speed. And, again, we're not slow. I'm just saying people realize they don't need everything under a second. They're okay with waiting for two seconds. VICTORIA: That totally resonates with me. And I'm curious if you can add maybe a non-technical or a real-life example of, like, how this impacts the operations of a company or organization, like, if you can give us, like, a business-y example of how this impacts how people work. SEIF: I don't know how, like, how do people work on that? Nothing changed, really. They're still doing the, like...really nothing because...and that aspect is you run a query, and, again, as I said, you're not getting the result in a second. You're just waiting two seconds or three seconds, and it's there. So, nothing really changed. I think people can wait three seconds. And we're still like–when I say this, we're still faster than most others. We're just not as fast as people who are trying to compete on a millisecond level. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's okay. Maybe I'll take it back even, like, a step further, right? Like, our audience is really sometimes just founders who almost have no formal technical training or background. So, when we talk about observability, sometimes people who work in DevOps and operations all understand it and kind of know why it's important [laughs] and what we're talking about. So, maybe you could, like, go back to -- SEIF: Oh, if you're asking about new types of people who've been using it -- VICTORIA: Yeah. Like, if you're going to explain to, like, a non-technical founder, like, why your product is important, or, like, how people in their organization might use it, what would you say? SEIF: Oh, okay, if you put it like that. It's more of if you have data, timestamp data, and you want to run analytics on top of it, so that could be transactions, that could be web vitals, rather than count every time somebody visits, you have a timestamp. So, you can count, like, how many visitors visited the website and what, you know, all these kinds of things. That's where you want to use something like Axiom. That's outside the DevOps space, of course. And in DevOps space, there's so many other things you use Axiom for, but that's outside the DevOps space. And we actually...we implemented as zero-config integration with Vercel that kind of went viral. And we were, for a while, the number one enterprise for self-integration because so many people were using it. So, Vercel users are usually not necessarily writing the most complex backends, but a lot of things are happening on the front-end side of things. And we would be giving them dashboards, automated dashboards about, you know, latencies, and how long a request took, and how long the response took, and the content type, and the status codes, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a huge user base around that. VICTORIA: I like that. And it's something, for me, you know, as a managing director of our platform engineering team, I want to talk more to founders about. It's great that you put this product and this app out into the world. But how do you know that people are actually using it? How do you know that people, like, maybe, are they all quitting after the first day and not coming back to your app? Or maybe, like, the page isn't loading or, like, it's not working as they expected it to. And, like, if you don't have anything observing what users are doing in your app, then it's going to be hard to show that you're getting any traction and know where you need to go in and make corrections and adjust. SEIF: We have two ways of doing this. Right now, internally, we use our own tools to see, like, who is sending us data. We have a deployment that's monitoring production deployment. And we're just, you know, seeing how people are using it, how much data they're sending every day, who stopped sending data, who spiked in sending data sets, et cetera. But we're using Mixpanel, and Dominic, our Head of Product, implemented a couple of key metrics to that for that specifically. So, we know, like, what's the average time until somebody starts going from building its own queries with the builder to writing APL, or how long it takes them from, you know, running two queries to five queries. And, you know, we just start measuring these things now. And it's been going...we've been growing healthy around that. So, we tend to measure user interaction, but also, we tend to measure how much data is being sent. Because let's keep in mind, usually, people go in and check for things if there's a problem. So, if there's no problem, the user won't interact with us much unless there's a notification that kicks off. We also just check, like, how much data is being sent to us the whole time. VICTORIA: That makes sense. Like, you can't just rely on, like, well, if it was broken, they would write a [chuckles], like, a question or something. So, how do you get those metrics and that data around their interactions? So, that's really interesting. So, I wonder if we can go back and talk about, you know, we already mentioned a little bit about, like, the early days of Axiom and how you got started. Was there anything that you found in the early discovery process that was surprising and made you pivot strategy? SEIF: A couple of things. Basically, people don't really care about the tech as much as they care [inaudible 12:51] and the packaging, so that's something that we had to learn. And number two, continuous feedback. Continuous feedback changed the way we worked completely, right? And, you know, after that, we had a Slack channel, then we opened a Discord channel. And, like, this continuous feedback coming in just helps with iterating, helps us with prioritizing, et cetera. And that changed the way we actually developed product. VICTORIA: You use Slack and Discord? SEIF: No. No Slack anymore. We had a community Slack. We had a community [inaudible 13:19] Slack. Now, there's no community Slack. We only have a community Discord. And the community Slack is...sorry, internally, we use Slack, but there's a community Discord for the community. JOE: But how do you keep that staffed? Is it, like, everybody is in the Discord during working hours? Is it somebody's job to watch out for community questions? SEIF: I think everybody gets involved now just...and you can see it. If you go on our Discord, you will just see it. Just everyone just gets involved. I think just people are passionate about what they're doing. At least most people are involved on Discord, right? Because there's, like, Discord the help sections, and people are just asking questions and other people answering. And now, we reached a point where people in the community start answering the questions for other people in the community. So, that's how we see it's starting to become a healthy community, et cetera. But that is one of my favorite things: when I see somebody from the community answering somebody else, that's a highlight for me. Actually, we hired somebody from that community because they were so active. JOE: Yeah, I think one of the biggest signs that a product is healthy is when there's a healthy ecosystem building up around it. SEIF: Yeah, and Discord reminds me of the old days of open sources like IRC, just with memes now. But because all of us come from the old IRC days, being on Discord and chatting around, et cetera, et cetera, just gives us this momentum back, gave us this momentum back, whereas Slack always felt a bit too businessy to me. JOE: Slack is like IRC with emoji. Discord is IRC with memes. SEIF: I would say Slack reminds me somehow of MSN Messenger, right? JOE: I feel like there's a huge slam on MSN Messenger here. SEIF: [laughs] What do you guys use internally, Slack or? I think you're using Slack, right? Or Teams. Don't tell me you're using Teams. JOE: No, we're using Slack. SEIF: Okay, good, because I shit talk. Like, there is this, I'll sh*t talk here–when I start talking about Teams, so...I remember that one thing Google did once, and that failed miserably. JOE: Google still has, like, seven active chat products. SEIF: Like, I think every department or every, like, group of engineers just uses one of them internally. I'm not sure. Never got to that point. But hey, who am I to judge? VICTORIA: I just feel like I end up using all of them, and then I'm just rotating between different tabs all day long. You maybe talked me into using Discord. I feel like I've been resisting it, but you got me with the memes. SEIF: Yeah, it's definitely worth it. It's more entertaining. More noise, but more entertaining. You feel it's alive, whereas Slack is...also because there's no, like, history is forever. So, you always go back, and you're like, oh my God, what the hell is this? VICTORIA: Yeah, I have, like, all of them. I'll do anything. SEIF: They should be using Axiom in the background. Just send data to Axiom; we can keep your chat history. VICTORIA: Yeah, maybe. I'm so curious because, you know, you mentioned something about how you realized that it didn't matter really how cool the tech was if the product packaging wasn't also appealing to people. Because you seem really excited about what you've built. So, I'm curious, so just tell us a little bit more about how you went about trying to, like, promote this thing you built. Or was, like, the continuous feedback really early on, or how did that all kind of come together? SEIF: The continuous feedback helped us with performance, but actually getting people to sign up and pay money it started early on. But with Vercel, it kind of skyrocketed, right? And that's mostly because we went with the whole zero-config approach where it's just literally two clicks. And all of a sudden, Vercel is sending your data to Axiom, and that's it. We will create [inaudible 16:33]. And we worked very closely with Vercel to do this, to make this happen, which was awesome. Like, yeah, hats off to them. They were fantastic. And just two clicks, three clicks away, and all of a sudden, we created Axiom organization for you, the data set for you. And then we're sending it...and the data from Vercel is being forwarded to it. I think that packaging was so simple that it made people try it out quickly. And then, the experience of actually using Axiom was sticky, so they continued using it. And then the price was so low because we give 500 gigs for free, right? You send us 500 gigs a month of logs for free, and we don't care. And you can start off here with one terabyte for 25 bucks. So, people just start signing up. Now, before that, it was five terabytes a month for $99, and then we changed the plan. But yeah, it was cheap enough, so people just start sending us more and more and more data eventually. They weren't thinking...we changed the way people start thinking of “what am I going to send to Axiom” or “what am I going to send to my logs provider or log storage?” To how much more can I send? And I think that's what we wanted to reach. We wanted people to think, how much more can I send? JOE: You mentioned latency and cost. I'm curious about...the other big challenge we've seen with observability platforms, including logs, is cardinality of labels. Was there anything you had to sacrifice upfront in terms of cardinality to manage either cost or volume? SEIF: No, not really. Because the way we designed it was that we should be able to deal with high cardinality from scratch, right? I mean, there's open-source ways of doing, like, if you look at how, like, a column store, if you look at a column store and every dimension is its own column, it's just that becomes, like, you can limit on the amount of columns you're creating, but you should never limit on the amount of different values in a column could be. So, if you're having something like stat tags, right? Let's say hosting, like, hostname should be a column, but then the different hostnames you have, we never limit that. So, the cardinality on a value is something that is unlimited for us, and we don't really see it in cost. It doesn't really hit us on cost. It reflects a bit on compression if you get into technical details of that because, you know, high cardinality means a lot of different data. So, compression is harder, but it's not repetitive. But then if you look at, you know, oh, I want to send a lot of different types of fields, not values with fields, so you have hostname, and latency, and whatnot, et cetera, et cetera, yeah, that's where limitation starts because then they have...it's like you're going to a wide range of...and a wider dimension. But even that, we, yeah, we can deal with thousands at this point. And we realize, like, most people will not need more than three or four. It's like a Postgres table. You don't need more than 3,000 to 4000 columns; else, you know, you're doing a lot. JOE: I think it's actually pretty compelling in terms of cost, though. Like, that's one of the things we've had to be most careful about in terms of containing cost for metrics and logs is, a lot of providers will...they'll either charge you based on the number of unique metric combinations or the performance suffers greatly. Like, we've used a lot of Prometheus-based solutions. And so, when we're working with developers, even though they don't need more than, you know, a few dozen metric combinations most of the time, it's hard for people to think of what they need upfront. It's much easier after you deploy it to be able to query your data and slice it retroactively based on what you're seeing. SEIF: That's the detail. When you say we're using Prometheus, a lot of the metrics tools out there are using, just like Prometheus, are using the Gorilla data structure. And the real data structure was never designed to deal with high cardinality labels. So, basically, to put it in a simple way, every combination of tags you send for metrics is its own file on disk. That's, like, the very simple way of explaining this. And then, when you're trying to search through everything, right? And you have a lot of these combinations. I actually have to get all these files from this conversion back together, you know, and then they're chunked, et cetera. So, it's a problem. Generally, how metrics are doing it...most metrics products are using it, even VictoriaMetrics, et cetera. What they're doing is they're using either the Prometheus TSDB data structure, which is based on Gorilla. Influx was doing the same thing. They pivoted to using more and more like the ones we use, and Honeycomb uses, right? So, we might not be as fast on metrics side as these highly optimized. But then when it comes to high [inaudible 20:49], once we start dealing with high cardinality, we will be faster than those solutions. And that's on a very technical level. JOE: That's pretty cool. I realize we're getting pretty technical here. Maybe it's worth defining cardinality for the audience. SEIF: Defining cardinality to the...I mean, we just did that, right? JOE: What do you think, Victoria? Do you know what cardinality is now? [laughs] VICTORIA: All right. Now I'm like, do I know? I was like, I think I know what it means. Cardinality is, like, let's say you have a piece of data like an event or a transaction. SEIF: It's like the distinct count on a property that gives you the cardinality of a property. VICTORIA: Right. It's like how many pieces of information you have about that one event, basically, yeah. JOE: But with some traditional metrics stores, it's easy to make mistakes. For example, you could have unbounded cardinality by including response time as one of the labels -- SEIF: Tags. JOE: And then it's just going to -- SEIF: Oh, no, no. Let me give you a better one. I put in timestamp at some point in my life. JOE: Yeah, I feel like everybody has done that one. [laughter] SEIF: I've put a system timestamp at some point in my life. There was the actual timestamp, and there was a system timestamp that I would put because I wanted to know when the...because I couldn't control the timestamp, and the only timestamp I had was a system timestamp. I would always add the actual timestamp of when that event actually happened into a metric, and yeah, that did not scale. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: Yeah. I wonder if you could maybe share, like, a story about when it's gone wrong, and you've suddenly charged a lot of money [laughs] just to get information about what's happening in the system. Any, like, personal experiences with observability that kind of informed what you did with Axiom? SEIF: Oof, I have a very bad one, like, a very, very bad one. I used to work for a company. We had to deploy Elasticsearch on Windows Servers, and it was US-East-1. So, just a combination of Elasticsearch back in 2013, 2014 together with Azure and Windows Server was not a good idea. So, you see where this is going, right? JOE: I see where it's going. SEIF: Eventually, we had, like, we get all these problems because we used Elasticsearch and Kibana as our, you know, observability platform to measure everything around the product we were building. And funny enough, it cost us more than actually maintaining the infrastructure of the product. But not just that, it also kept me up longer because most of the downtimes I would get were not because of the product going down. It's because my Elasticsearch cluster started going down, and there's reasons for that. Because back then, Microsoft Azure thought that it's okay for any VM to lose connection with the rest of the VMs for 30 seconds per day. And then, all of a sudden, you have Elasticsearch with a split-brain problem. And there was a phase where I started getting alerted so much that back then, my partner threatened to leave me. So I bought a...what I think was a shock bracelet or a shock collar via Bluetooth, and I connected it to phone for any notification. And I bought that off Alibaba, by the way. And I would charge it at night, put it on my wrist, and go to sleep. And then, when alert happens, it will fully discharge the battery on me every time. JOE: Okay, I have to admit, I did not see where that was going. SEIF: Yeah, did that for a while; definitely did not save my relationship either. But eventually, that was the point where, you know, we started looking into other observability tools like Datadog, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where the actual journey began, where we moved away from Elasticsearch and Kibana to look for something, okay, that we don't have to maintain ourselves and we can use, et cetera. So, it's not about the costs as much; it was just pain. VICTORIA: Yeah, pain is a real pain point, actual physical [chuckles] and emotional pain point [laughter]. What, like, motivates you to keep going with Axiom and to keep, like, the wind in your sails to keep working on it? SEIF: There's a couple of things. I love working with my team. So, honestly, I just wake up, and I compliment my team. I just love working with them. They're a lot of fun to work with. And they challenge me, and I challenge them back. And I upset them a lot. And they can't upset me, but I upset them. But I love working with them, and I love working with that team. And the other thing is getting, like, having this constant feedback from customers just makes you want to do more and, you know, close sales, et cetera. It's interesting, like, how I'm a very technical person, and I'm more interested in sales because sales means your product works, the product, the technical parts, et cetera. Because if technically it's not working, you can't build a product on top of it. And if you're not selling it, then what's the point? You only sell when the product is good, more or less, unless you're Oracle. VICTORIA: I had someone ask me about Oracle recently, actually. They're like, "Are you considering going back to it?" And I'm maybe a little allergic to it from having a federal consulting background [laughs]. But maybe they'll come back around. I don't know. We'll see. SEIF: Did you sell your soul back then? VICTORIA: You know, I feel like I just grew up in a place where that's what everyone did was all. SEIF: It was Oracle, IBM, or HP back in the day. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, basically, when you're working on applications that were built in, like, the '80s, Oracle was, like, this hot, new database technology [laughs] that they just got five years ago. So, that's just, yeah, interesting. SEIF: Although, from a database perspective, they did a lot of the innovations. A lot of first innovations could have come from Oracle. From a technical perspective, they're ridiculous. I'm not sure from a product perspective how good they are. But I know their sales team is so big, so huge. They don't care about the product anymore. They can still sell. VICTORIA: I think, you know, everything in tech is cyclical. So, you know, if they have the right strategy and they're making some interesting changes over there, there's always a chance [laughs]. Certain use cases, I mean, I think that's the interesting point about working in technology is that you know, every company is a tech company. And so, there's just a lot of different types of people, personas, and use cases for different types of products. So, I wonder, you know, you kind of mentioned earlier that, like, everyone is interested in Axiom. But, you know, I don't know, are you narrowing the market? Or, like, how are you trying to kind of focus your messaging and your sales for Axiom? SEIF: I'm trying to focus on developers. So, we're really trying to focus on developers because the experience around observability is crap. It's stupid expensive. Sorry for being straightforward, right? And that's what we're trying to change. And we're targeting developers mainly. We want developers to like us. And we'll find all these different types of developers who are using it, and that's the interesting thing. And because of them, we start adding more and more features, like, you know, we added tracing, and now that enables, like, billions of events pushed through for, you know, again, for almost no money, again, $25 a month for a terabyte of data. And we're doing this with metrics next. And that's just to address the developers who have been giving us feedback and the market demand. I will sum it up, again, like, the experience is crap, and it's stupid expensive. I think that's the [inaudible 28:07] of observability is just that's how I would sum it up. VICTORIA: If you could go back in time and talk to yourself when you were still a developer, now that you're CTO, what advice would you give yourself? JOE: Besides avoiding shock collars. VICTORIA: [laughs] Yes. SEIF: Get people's feedback quickly so you know you're on the right track. I think that's very, very, very, very important. Don't just work in the dark, or don't go too long into stealth mode because, eventually, people catch up. Also, ship when you're 80% ready because 100% is too late. I think it's the same thing here. JOE: Ship often and early. SEIF: Yeah, even if it's not fully ready, it's still feedback. VICTORIA: Ship often and early and talk to people [laughs]. Just, do you feel like, as a developer, did you have the skills you needed to be able to get the most out of those feedback and out of those conversations you were having with people around your product? SEIF: I still don't think I'm good enough. You're just constantly learning, right? I just accepted I'm part of a team, and I have my contributions. But as an individual, I still don't think I know enough. I think there's more I need to learn at this point. VICTORIA: I wonder, what questions do you have for me or Joe? SEIF: How did you start your podcast, and why the name? VICTORIA: Oh, man, I hope I can answer. So, the podcast was started...I think it's, like, we're actually about to be at our 500th Episode. So, I've only been a host for the last year. Maybe Joe even knows more than I do. But what I recall is that one person at thoughtbot thought it would be a great idea to start a podcast, and then they did it. And it seems like the whole company is obsessed with robots. I'm not really sure where that came from. There used to be a tiny robot in the office, is what I remember. And people started using that as, like, the mascot. And then, yeah, that's it, that's the whole thing. SEIF: Was the robot doing anything useful or just being cute? JOE: It was just cute, and it's hard to make a robot cute. SEIF: Was it a real robot, or was it like a -- JOE: No, there was, at one point, a toy robot. The name...I actually forget the origin–origin of the name, but the name Giant Robots comes from our blog. So, we named the podcast the same as the blog: Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. SEIF: Yes, it's called transformers. VICTORIA: Yeah, I like it. It's, I mean, now I feel like -- SEIF: [laughs] VICTORIA: We got to get more, like, robot dogs involved [laughs] in the podcast. SEIF: Like, I wanted to add one thing when we talked about, you know, what gets me going. And I want to mention that I have a six-month-old son now. He definitely adds a lot of motivation for me to wake up in the morning and work. But he also makes me wake up regardless if I want to or not. VICTORIA: Yeah, you said you had invented an alarm clock that never turns off. Never snoozes [laughs]. SEIF: Yes, absolutely. VICTORIA: I have the same thing, but it's my dog. But he does snooze, actually. He'll just, like, get tired and go back to sleep [laughs]. SEIF: Oh, I have a question. Do dogs have a Tamagotchi phase? Because, like, my son, the first three months was like a Tamagotchi. It was easy to read him. VICTORIA: Oh yeah, uh-huh. SEIF: Noisy but easy. VICTORIA: Yes, yes. SEIF: Now, it's just like, yeah, I don't know, like, the last month he has opinions at six months. I think it's because I raised him in Europe. I should take him back to the Middle East [laughs]. No opinions. VICTORIA: No, dogs totally have, like, a communication style, you know, I pretty much know what he, I mean, I can read his mind, obviously [laughs]. SEIF: Sure, but that's when they grow a bit. But what when they were very...when the dog was very young? VICTORIA: Yeah, they, I mean, they also learn, like, your stuff, too. So, they, like, learn how to get you to do stuff or, like, I know she'll feed me if I'm sitting here [laughs]. SEIF: And how much is one dog year, seven years? VICTORIA: Seven years. SEIF: Seven years? VICTORIA: Yeah, seven years? SEIF: Yeah. So, basically, in one year, like, three months, he's already...in one month, he's, you know, seven months old. He's like, yeah. VICTORIA: Yeah. In a year, they're, like, teenagers. And then, in two years, they're, like, full adults. SEIF: Yeah. So, the first month is basically going through the first six months of a human being. So yeah, you pass...the first two days or three days are the Tamagotchi phase that I'm talking about. VICTORIA: [chuckles] I read this book, and it was, like, to understand dogs, it's like, they're just like humans that are trying to, like, maximize the number of positive experiences that they have. So, like, if you think about that framing around all your interactions about, like, maybe you're trying to get your son to do something, you can be like, okay, how do I, like, I don't know, train him that good things happen when he does the things I want him to do? [laughs] That's kind of maybe manipulative but effective. So, you're not learning baby sign language? You're just, like, going off facial expressions? SEIF: I started. I know how Mama looks like. I know how Dada looks like. I know how more looks like, slowly. And he already does this thing that I know that when he's uncomfortable, he starts opening and closing his hands. And when he's completely uncomfortable and basically that he needs to go sleep, he starts pulling his own hair. VICTORIA: [laughs] I do the same thing [laughs]. SEIF: You pull your own hair when you go to sleep? I don't have that. I don't have hair. VICTORIA: I think I do start, like, touching my head though, yeah [inaudible 33:04]. SEIF: Azure took the last bit of hair I had! Went away with Azure, Elasticsearch, and the shock collar. VICTORIA: [laughs] SEIF: I have none of them left. Absolutely nothing. I should sue Elasticsearch for this shit. VICTORIA: [laughs] Let me know how that goes. Maybe there's more people who could join your lawsuit, you know, with a class action. SEIF: [laughs] Yeah. Well, one thing I wanted to also just highlight is, right now, one of the things that also makes the company move forward is we realized that in a single domain, we proved ourselves very valuable to specific companies, right? So, that was a big, big thing, milestone for us. And now we're trying to move into a handful of domains and see which one of those work out the best for us. Does that make sense? VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious: what are the biggest challenges or hurdles that you associate with that? SEIF: At this point, you don't want just feedback. You want constructive criticism. Like, you want to work with people who will criticize the applic...and you iterate with them based on this criticism, right? They're just not happy about you and trying to create design partners. So, for us, it was very important to have these small design partners who can work with us to actually prove ourselves as valuable in a single domain. Right now, we need to find a way to scale this across several domains. And how do you do that without sacrificing? Like, how do you open into other domains without sacrificing the original domain you came from? So, there's a lot of things [inaudible 34:28]. And we are in the middle of this. Honestly, I Forrest Gumped my way through half of this, right? Like, I didn't know what I was doing. I had ideas. I think it's more of luck at this point. And I had luck. No, we did work. We did work a lot. We did sleepless nights and everything. But I think, in the last three years, we became more mature and started thinking more about product. And as I said, like, our CEO, Neil, and Dominic, our head of product, are putting everything behind being a product-led organization, not just a tech-led organization. VICTORIA: That's super interesting. I love to hear that that's the way you're thinking about it. JOE: I was just curious what other domains you're looking at pushing into if you can say. SEIF: So, we are going to start moving into ETL a bit more. We're trying to see how we can fit in specific ML scenarios. I can't say more about the other, though. JOE: Do you think you'll take the same approaches in terms of value proposition, like, low cost, good enough latency? SEIF: Yes, that's definitely one thing. But there's also...so, this is the values we're bringing to the customer. But also, now, our internal values are different. Now it's more of move with urgency and high velocity, as we said before, right? Think big, work small. The values in terms of values we're going to take to the customers it's the same ones. And maybe we'll add some more, but it's still going to be low-cost and large-scale. And, internally, we're just becoming more, excuse my French, agile. I hate that word so much. Should be good with Scrum. VICTORIA: It's painful, but everyone knows what you're talking about [laughs], you know, like -- SEIF: See, I have opinions here about Scrum. I think Scrum should be only used in terms of iceScrum [inaudible 36:04], or something like that. VICTORIA: Oh no [laughter]. Well, it's a Rugby term, right? Like, that's where it should probably stay. SEIF: I did not know it's a rugby term. VICTORIA: Yeah, so it should stay there, but -- SEIF: Yes [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yeah, I think it's interesting. Yeah, I like the being flexible. I like the just, like, continuous feedback and how you all have set up to, like, talk with your customers. Because you mentioned earlier that, like, you might open source some of your projects. And I'm just curious, like, what goes into that decision for you when you're going to do that? Like, what makes you think this project would be good for open source or when you think, actually, we need to, like, keep it? SEIF: So, we open source libraries, right? We actually do that already. And some other big organizations use our libraries; even our competitors use our libraries, that we do. The whole product itself or at least a big part of the product, like database, I'm not sure we're going to open source that, at least not anytime soon. And if we open source, it's going to be at a point where the value-add it brings is nothing compared to how well our product is, right? So, if we can replace whatever's at the back with...the storage engine we have in the back with something else and the product doesn't get affected, that's when we open source it. VICTORIA: That's interesting. That makes sense to me. But yeah, thank you for clarifying that. I just wanted to make sure to circle back. Since you have this big history in open source, yeah, I'm curious if you see... SEIF: Burning me out? VICTORIA: Burning you out, yeah [laughter]. Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, like, because, you know, we're about to be in October here. Do you have any advice or strategies as a maintainer for not getting burned out during the next couple of weeks besides, like, hide in a cave and without internet access [laughs]? SEIF: Stay away from Reddit and Hacker News. That's my goal for October now because I'm always afraid of getting too attached to an idea, or too motivated, or excited by an idea that I drift away from what I am actually supposed to be doing. VICTORIA: Last question is, is there anything else you would like to promote? SEIF: Yeah, check out our website; I think it's at axiom.co. Check it out. Sign up. And comment on Discord and talk to me. I don't bite, sometimes grumpy, but that's just because of lack of sleep in the morning. But, you know, around midday, I'm good. And if you're ever in Berlin and you want to hang out, I'm more than willing to hang out. VICTORIA: Whoo, that's awesome. Yeah, Berlin is great. I was there a couple of years ago but no plans to go back anytime soon, but maybe I'll keep that in mind. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. And this podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Joe Ferris and Seif Lotfy.

Victoria and Will interview Rishi Malik, the Founder of Backstop.it and VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. They talk about Rishi's recent adventure at DEF CON, the renowned annual security conference that he's attended for six years, and describes how it has transformed from a mere learning experience into a thrilling competition for him and his team. The conference = their playground for tackling an array of security challenges and brain-teasing puzzles, with a primary focus on cloud security competitions. They talk about the significance of community in such events and how problem-solving through interaction adds value. Rishi shares his background, tracing his path from firmware development through various tech companies to his current roles in security and engineering management. The vital topic of security in the fintech and banking sector highlights the initial concerns people had when online banking emerged. Rishi navigates through the technical intricacies of security measures, liability protection, and the regulatory framework that safeguards online banking for consumers. He also highlights the evolving landscape, where technological advancements and convenience have bolstered consumer confidence in online banking. Rishi shares his unique approach to leadership and decision-making, and pearls of wisdom for budding engineers starting their careers. His advice revolves around nurturing curiosity and relentlessly seeking to understand the "why" behind systems and processes. __ Backstop.it (https://backstop.it/) Follow Backstop.it on X (https://twitter.com/wearebackstop). Varo Bank (https://www.varomoney.com/) Follow Varo Bank on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/varobank/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/varomoney/), X (https://twitter.com/varobank), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/varomoney), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/varobank/). Follow Rishi Malik on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishilmalik/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Rishi Malik, Founder of Backstop.it and VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. Rishi, thank you for joining us. RISHI: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Yes, Rishi. I'm so excited to talk with you today about your security background and get into your role at Varo and Backstop IT. But first, I wanted to hear a little bit more about your recent experience attending DEF CON. How was that? RISHI: It was awesome. I do have quite the background in security at this point. And one of the things I started doing early on, as I was getting up to speed and learning more about the security-specific side of things, was beginning to attend DEF CON itself. So, I've now gone six years straight. And it started out as just kind of experiencing the conference and security and meeting folks. But it's progressed to where I now bring a team of people where we go and we compete. We have a good time. But we do get to kind of bring the security side of things into the software engineering and engineering leadership stuff that we all do on a day-to-day basis. VICTORIA: Yeah. And what kind of puzzles do you solve with your team when you attend DEF CON? RISHI: There's definitely a lot of variety there, which I think is part of the fun. So, DEF CON frequently has electronic badges, you know, with random puzzles on there that you have to solve. Some of it are cryptographic. Some of them are kind of random cultural things. Sometimes there's music challenges based around it. Sometimes, it's social and interactive. And you have to go find the right type of badge or the right person behind it to unlock something. So, all of those, you know, typically exist and are a ton of fun. Primarily, in the last few years, we've been focusing more on the cloud CTF. So, in this case, it's our team competing against other teams and really focused on cloud security. So, it's, you know, figuring out vulnerabilities in, you know, specially designed puzzles around AWS and GCP, the application side of things as well, and competing to see how well you can do. Three years ago, the last couple of years, we've not won it, but we've been pretty competitive. And the great thing is the field is expanding as more and more people get into CTF themselves but, more importantly, into cloud infrastructure and cloud knowledge there. So, it's just great to see that expansion and see what people are into, what people are learning, and how challenging some of these things can be. VICTORIA: I love the idea of having a puzzle at a conference where you have to find a specific person to solve it. And yeah, I'm always interested in ways where we can have these events where you're getting together and building community and growing expertise in a field but in a way that makes it fun [laughs] and isn't just life-draining long, like, talks about random stuff. RISHI: [laughs] I think what you're touching on there is crucial. And you said the word community, and, to me, that is, you know, a big part of what DEF CON and, you know, hacking and security culture is. But it is, I think, one of the things that kind of outside of this, we tend to miss it more, you know, specifically, like, focused conferences. It is more about kind of the content, you know, the hallway track is always a thing. But it's less intentional than I personally, at this stage, really prefer, you know. So, I do like those things where it is encouraging interaction. For me, I'd rather go to happy hour with some people who are really well versed in the subject that they're in rather than even necessarily listening to a talk from them on what they're doing. Simply because I think the community aspect, the social aspect, actually gets you more of the information that is more relevant to what you're doing on a day-to-day basis than just consuming it passively. VICTORIA: I agree because consuming it passively or even intentionally remotely, there are things that you didn't even think to think about [laughs] that aren't going to come up just on your own. You have to have another person there who's...Actually, I have a good friend who's co-working with me this week who's at Ticketmaster. And so, just hearing about some of the problems they have and issues there has been entertaining for me. So yeah, I love that about DEF CON, and I love hearing about community stories and fun ways that companies can get a benefit out of coming together and just putting good content out there. RISHI: Absolutely. I think problem-solving is where you get the most value out of it as a company and as a business. VICTORIA: Yeah, maybe that's a good segue to tell me a little bit more about your background and how you came to be where you are today. RISHI: Yeah. For me growing up, I was always that problem-solver type of person. So, I think that's what kind of naturally gravitated me towards tech and, you know, hardware and software engineering. You know, so, for me, I go back quite a while. I'd been doing a lot of development, you know, in the early days of my career. I started out doing firmware development back in the days of large tape libraries, right? So, if you think about, like, big businesses back before cloud was a big thing and even back before SSDs were a thing, you know, it was all spinning disks. It was all tape. And that's kind of the area that I started in. So, I was working on robots that actually move tapes around these giant tape libraries that are, you know, taller than I am that you can walk inside of because they're so big, for big corporations to be able to backup their data on an overnight basis. You have to do that kind of stuff. Then I started going into smaller and smaller companies, into web tech, into startups, then into venture-backed startups. And then, eventually, I started my own company and did that for a while. All of this is really just kind of, you know, software engineering in a nutshell, lots of different languages, lots of different technologies. But really, from the standpoint of, here's a whole bunch of hard problems that need to be solved. Let's figure out how we can do that and how we can make some money by solving some of these problems. That eventually kind of led me down the security path as well and the engineering management side of things, which is what I do now, both at Backstop...is a security consulting business and being VP of Engineering at Varo Bank. WILL: How was your journey? Because you started as an intern in 2003. RISHI: [laughs] WILL: And then, you know, 20 years later. So, how was your journey through all of that? [laughs] RISHI: [laughs] You know, I hadn't actually put it together that it has been 20 years this year until you said that. So, that's awesome. It's been a blast, you know. I can honestly say it's been wildly different than what I imagined 20 years ago and interesting in different ways. I think I'm very fortunate to be able to say that. When I started out as an intern in 2003, technologies were very different. I was doing some intern shifts with the federal government, you know, so the pace was wildly different. And when I think of where technology has come now, and where the industry has gone, and what I get to do on a day-to-day basis, I'm kind of just almost speechless at just how far we've come in 20 years, how easy some things are, how remarkably hard some other things are that should honestly be easy at this point, but just the things that we can do. I'm old enough that I remember cell phones being a thing and then smartphones coming out and playing with them and being like, yeah, this is kind of mediocre. I don't really know why people would want this. And the iPhone coming out and just changing the game and being like, okay, now I get it. You know, to the experience of the internet and, you know, mobile data and everywhere. It's just phenomenal the advances that we've had in the last 20 years. And it makes me excited for the next 20 years to see what we can do as we go forward. VICTORIA: I'm going to take personal offense to someone knowing that technology being too old [laughs], but, yeah, because it really wasn't that long ago. And I think one thing I always think about having a background in civic tech and in financial tech as well is that the future is here; it's just not evenly distributed. So, now, if you're building a new company, of course, the default is to go straight to the cloud. But many companies and organizations that have been around for 60-80 years and using the internet right when it first came out are still in really old technologies that just simply work. And maybe they're not totally sure why, and change is difficult and slow. So, I wonder if you have any experience that you can take from the banking or fintech industry on how to make the most out of modern security and compliance platforms. RISHI: Yeah, you know, I think most people in tech especially...and the gray hairs on me are saying the younger folks in tech especially don't realize just how much older technologies still exist and will exist for quite some time. When you think of banking itself, you know, most of the major companies that you can think of, you know, in the U.S. especially but kind of across the world that are the top tier names of banks, and networks, and stuff like that, still run mainframes. When you swipe your credit card, there's a very good chance that is processed on a mainframe. And that's not a bad thing. But it's just, you know when you talk to younger engineers, it's not something that kind of crosses their mind. They feel like it is old-tech. The bulk of businesses don't actually run on the cloud. Having been through it, I've racked and stacked servers and had to figure out how to physically take hardware across, you know, country borders and things like those lines. And now, when I do want to spin up a server somewhere else, it's just a different AWS region. So, it's remarkably easy, at this point, to solve a lot of those problems. But once you're up and live and you have customers, you know, where downtime is impactful or, you know, the cost of moving to the cloud or modernizing your technology is substantial, things tend to move a lot slower. And I think you see that, especially when it comes to security, because we have more modern movements like DevOps bringing security into it. And with a lot of the, you know, the modern security and compliance platforms that exist, they work very, very well for what they do, especially when you're a startup or your whole tech stack is modernized. The biggest challenges, I think, seem to come in when you have that hybrid aspect of it. You do have some cloud infrastructure you have to secure. You do have some physical data centers you have to secure. You have something that is, you know, on-premise in your office. You have something that is co [inaudible 10:01] somewhere else. Or you also have to deal with stuff like, you know, much less modern tech, you know, when it comes to mainframes and security and kind of being responsible for all of that. And I think that is a big challenge because security is one of those things where it's, you know, if you think of your house, you can have the strongest locks on your door and everything else like that. But if you have one weak point, you have a window that's left open, that's all it takes. And so, it has to be all-inclusive and holistic. And I think that is remarkably hard to do well, even despite where technology has come to these days. WILL: Speaking of securities, I remember when the Internet banking started a couple of years ago. And some of the biggest, I guess, fears were, like, the security around it, the safety. Because, you know, your money, you're putting your money in it, and you can't go to a physical location to talk to anyone or anything. And the more and more you learn about it...at first, I was terrified of it because you couldn't go talk to someone. But the more and more I learned about it, I was like, oh, there's so much security around it. In your role, what does that look like for you? Because you have such a huge impact with people's money. So, how do you overcome that fear that people have? RISHI: There's, I think, a number of steps that kind of go into it. And, you know, in 2023, it's certainly a little bit easier than it used to be. But, you know, very similar, I've had the same questions, you know, and concerns that you're describing. And I remember using one of the first banks that was essentially all digital and kind of wondering, you know, where is my money going? What happens if something goes wrong? And all of those types of things. And so, I think there is kind of a number of different aspects that go into it. One is, you know, obviously, the technical aspects of security, you know, when you put your credit card number in on the internet, you know, is it encrypted? You know, is it over, you know, TLS? What's happening there? You know, how safe and secure is all that kind of thing? You know, at this point, pretty much everyone, at least in the U.S., has been affected by credit card breaches, huge companies like Home Depot and Target that got cards accessed or, you know, just even the smaller companies when you're buying something random from maybe something...a smaller website on the internet. You know, that's all a little bit better now. So, I think what you have there was just kind of a little bit of becoming comfortable with what exists now. The other aspect, though, I think, then comes into, well, what happens when something goes wrong? And I think there's a number of aspects that are super helpful for that. I think the liability aspect of credit card, you know, companies saying, you know, and the banks "You're not liable for a fraudulent transaction," I think that was a very big and important step that really helps with that. And on top of that, then I think when you have stuff like the FDIC, you know, and insurance in the U.S., you know, that is government-backed that says, you know what? Even if this is an online-only digital bank, you're safe. You're protected. The government's got your back in that regard. And we're going to make sure that's covered. At Varo, that's one of the key things that we think about a lot because we are a bank. Now, most FinTechs, actually, aren't banks, right? They partner with other third-party banks to provide their financial services. Whereas at Varo, we are federally regulated. And so, we have the full FDIC protection. We get the benefits of that. But it also means that we deal with the regulation aspects and being able to prove that we are safe and secure and show the regulators that we're doing the right things for our customers. And I think that's huge and important because, obviously, it's safety for customers. But then it changes how you begin to think about how you're designing products, and how you're [inaudible 13:34] them, and, you know, how you're marketing them. Are we making a mobile app that shows that we're safe, and secure, and stable? Or are we doing this [inaudible 13:42] thing of moving too fast and breaking things? When it's people's money, you have to be very, very dialed into that. You still have to be able to move fast, but you have to show the protection and the safety that people have because it is impactful to their lives. And so, I think from the FinTech perspective, that's a shift that's been happening over the last couple of years to continue that. The last thing I'll say, too, is that part of it has just come from technology itself and the comfort there. It used to be that people who were buying, you know, items on the internet were more the exception rather than the rule. And now with Amazon, with Shopify, with all the other stuff that's out there, like, it's much more than a norm. And so, all of that just adds that level of comfort that says, I know I'm doing the right things as a consumer, that I'm protected. If I, you know, do have problems, my bank's got my back. The government is watching out for what's happening and trying to do what they can do to regulate all of that. So, I think all of that has combined to get to that point where we can do much more of our banking online and safely. And I think that's a pretty fantastic thing when it comes to what customers get from that. I am old enough that I remember having to figure out times to get to the bank because they're open nine to five, and, you know, I have to deposit my paycheck. And, you know, I work nine to five, and maybe more hours pass, and I had no idea when I can go get that submitted. And now, when I have to deposit something, I can just take a picture with my phone, and it safely makes it to my account. So, I think the convenience that we have now is really amazing, but it has certainly taken some time. And I think a number of different industry and commercial players kind of come together and make that happen. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. VICTORIA: I appreciate that perspective on approaching security from the user experience of wanting safety. And I'm curious if we can talk in contrast from that experience to the developer experience with security. And how do you, as a new leader in this financial product company, prioritize security and introduce it from a, like, building a safety culture perspective? RISHI: I think you just said that very eloquently. It is a safety culture. And cultural changes are hard. And I think for quite some time in the developer industry, security was either an afterthought or somebody else's problem. You know, it's the security team that has to think about it. It's, you know, and even these days, it's the red team that's going to go, you know, find these answers or whatever I'm shipping as a developer. My only thing to focus on is how fast I can ship, or, you know, what I'm shipping, rather than how secure is what I'm shipping. And so, I think to really be effective at that, it is a cultural shift. You have to think and talk about security from the outset. And you have to bake those processes into how you build product. Those security conversations really do need to start at the design phase. And, you know, thinking about a mobile app for a bank as an example, you know, it starts when you're just thinking about the different screens on a mobile app that people are going to go through. How are people interpreting this? You know, what is the [inaudible 17:23], and the feeling, and the emotions, that we're building towards? You know, is that safe and secure or, you know, is it not? But then it starts getting to the architecture and the design of the systems themselves to say, well, here's how they're going to enter information, here's how we're passing this back and forth. And especially in a world where a lot of software isn't just 100% in-house, but we're calling other partners for that, you know, be it, you know, infrastructure or risk, you know, or compliance, or whatever else it may be, how are we protecting people's data? How are we making sure our third parties are protecting people's data? You know, how are we encrypting it? How are we thinking about their safety all the way through? Again, even all the way down to the individual developer that's writing code, how are we verifying they're writing good, high-quality, secure code? Part of it is training, part of it is culture, part of it is using good tooling around that to be able to make sure and say, when humans make mistakes because we are all human and we all will make mistakes, how are we catching that? What are the layers do we have to make sure that if a mistake does happen, we either catch it before it happens or, you know, we have defense in depth such that that mistake in and of itself isn't enough to cause a, you know, compromise or a problem for our customers? So, I think it starts right from the start. And then, every kind of step along the way for delivering value for customers, also let's add that security and privacy and compliance perspective in there as well. VICTORIA: Yes, I agree. And I don't want to work for a company where if I make a small human mistake, I'm going to potentially cost someone tens or however many thousands of dollars. [laughs] WILL: I have a question around that. How, as a leader, how does that affect you day to day? Because I feel like there's some companies, maybe thoughtbot, maybe other companies, that a decision is not as critical as working as a bank. So, you, as a leader, how do you handle that? RISHI: There's a couple of things I try and consider in any given big or important decision I have to make, the aspects around, like, you know, the context, what the decision is, and that type of stuff. But from a higher level, there's kind of two things I try and keep in mind. And when I say keep in mind, like, when it's a big, impactful decision, I will actually go through the steps of, you know, writing it down or talking this out loud, sometimes by myself, sometimes with others, just, again, to make sure we are actually getting to the meat of it. But the first thing I'm trying to think of is kind of the Amazon idea of one-way versus two-way doors. If we make this decision and this is the wrong decision, what are the ramifications of that? You know, is it super easy to undo and there's very little risk with it? Or is it once we've made this decision or the negative outcome of this decision has happened, is it unfixable to a certain degree? You know, and that is a good reminder in my head to make sure that, you know, A, I am considering it deeply. And that, B, if it is something where the ramifications, you know, are super huge, that you do take the time, and you do the legwork necessary to make sure you're making a good, valid decision, you know, based on the data, based on the risks involved and that there's a deep understanding of the problem there. The second thing I try to think of is our customers. So, at Varo, our customers aren't who most banks target. A lot of banks want you to take all your money, put it in there, and they're going to loan that money out to make their money. And Varo is not that type of bank, and we focus on a pretty different segment of the market. What that means is our customers need their money. They need it safely and reliably, and it needs to be accurate when they have it. And what I mean by that is, you know, frequently, our customers may not have, you know, hundreds or a thousand dollars worth of float in their bank accounts. So, if they're going and they're buying groceries and they can't because there's an error on our side because we're down, and because the transactions haven't settled, then that is very, very impactful to them, you know, as an individual. And I think about that with most of these decisions because being in software and being in engineering I am fortunate enough that I'm not necessarily experiencing the same economic struggles that our customers may have. And so, that reminder helps me to think about it from their perspective. In addition, I also like to try and think of it from the perspective...from my mom, actually, who, you know, she is retired age. She's a teacher. She's non-technical. And so, I think about her because I'd say, okay, when we're making a product or a design decision, how easy is it for her to understand? And my biases when I think about that, really kind of come into focus when I think about how she would interpret things. Because, you know, again, for me, I'm in tech. I think about things, you know, very analytically. And I just have a ton of experience across the industry, which she doesn't have. So, even something as simple as a little bit of copy for a page that makes a ton of sense to me, when I think about how she would interpret it, it's frequently wildly different. And so, all of those things, I think, kind of come together to help make a very strong and informed decision in these types of situations where the negative outcomes really do matter. But you are, you know, as Varo is, you're a startup. And you do need to be able to build more products quickly because our customers have needs that aren't being met by the existing banking industry. And so, we need to provide value to them so that their lives are a bit better. VICTORIA: I love that focus on a specific market segment and their needs and solving for that problem. And we know that if you're at a certain income level, it's more expensive [laughs] because of the overdraft fees and other things that can cause you problems. So, I really appreciate that that's the mission at Varo, and that's who you're focusing on to create a better banking product that makes more sense. I'm curious if there were any surprises and challenges that you could share from that discovery process and finding out, you know, exactly what were those things where your mom was, like, uh, actually, I need something completely different. [laughs] RISHI: Yeah, so, [chuckles] I'm chuckling because, you know, it's not, like, a single kind of time or event. It's, you know, definitely an ongoing process. But, you know, as actually, we were talking, you know, about earlier in terms of being kind of comfortable with doing things digital and online, that in and of itself is something that even in 2023, my mom isn't as comfortable or as confident as, you know, say, maybe the three of us are. As an example, when sending money, you know, kind of like a peer-to-peer basis, like, if I'm sending my mom a little bit of money, or she's sending me something, you're kind of within the family. Things that I would think would be kind of very easy and straightforward actually do cause her a little bit more concern. Okay, I'm entering my debit card number into this so that it can get, you know, the cash transferred into my bank account. You know, again, for me, it didn't even cross my mind, actually, that that would be something uncomfortable. But for my mom, that was something where she actually had some concerns about it and was messaging me. Her kind of personal point of view on that was, I would rather use a credit card for this and get the money on a credit card instead of a debit card because the debit card is linked to a bank account, and the security around that needs to be, you know, much tighter. And so, it made her more uncomfortable entering that on her phone. Whereas even a credit card it would have given her a little bit more peace of mind simply because it wasn't directly tied to her bank account. So, that's just, you know, the most recent example. I mean, honestly, that was earlier today, but it's something I hadn't thought of. And, again, for most of our customers, maybe that's not the case and how they think. But for folks that are at that retirement age, you know, in a world where there are constant barrages of scam, you know, emails, and phone calls, and text messages going around, the concern was definitely there. VICTORIA: That happened to me. Last week, I was on vacation with my family, and we needed to pay my mom for the house we'd rented. And I had to teach her how to use Zelle and set up Zelle. [laughter] It was a week-long process. But we got there, and it works [laughs] now. But yeah, it's interesting what concerns they have. And the funny part about it was that my sister-in-law happens to be, like, a lawyer who prevents class action lawsuits at a major bank. And she reassured us that it was, in fact, secure. [laughs] I think it's interesting thinking about that user experience for security. And I'm curious, again, like, compare again with the developer experience and using security toolings. And I wonder if you had any top recommendations on tools that make the developer experience a little more comfortable and feeling like you're deploying with security in mind. RISHI: That, in particular, is a bit of a hard question to answer. I try and stay away from specific vendors when it comes to that because I think a lot of it is contextual. But I could definitely talk through, like, some of the tools that I use and the way I like to think about it, especially from the developer perspective. I think, first off, consider what aspect of the software development, you know, lifecycle you're in. If you are an engineer writing, you know, mostly application code and dealing with building product and features and stuff like that, start from that angle. I could even take a step back and say security as an industry is very, very wide at this point. There is somebody trying to sell you a tool for basically every step in the SDLC process, and honestly, before and after to [inaudible 26:23]. I would even almost say it's, to some extent, kind of information and vendor overload in a lot of ways. So, I think what's important is to think about what your particular aspect of that is. Again, as an application engineer, or if you're building cloud infrastructure, or if you're an SRE, you know, or a platform team, kind of depending on what you are, your tooling will be different. The concepts are all kind of similar ideas, but how you go about what you build will be different. In general, I like to say, from the app side of things, A, start with considering the code you're writing. And that's a little bit cultural, but it's also kind of more training. Are you writing code with a security mindset? are you designing systems with a security mindset? These aren't things that are typically taught, you know, in school if you go get a CS degree, or even in a lot of companies in terms of the things that you should be thinking about. So, A, start from there. And if you don't feel like you think about, you know, is this design secure? Have we done, you know, threat modeling on it? Are we considering all of the error paths or the negative ways people can break the system? Then, start from that and start going through some of the security training that exists out there. And there's a lot of different aspects or avenues by which you can get that to be able to say, like, okay, I know I'm at least thinking about the code I write with a security mindset, even if you haven't actually changed anything about the code you're writing yet. What I actually think is really helpful for a lot of engineers is to have them try and break things. It's why I like to compete in CTFs, but it's also why I like to have my engineers do the same types of things. Trying to break software is both really insightful from the aspect that you don't get when you're just writing code and shipping it because it's not something you have time to do, but it's also a great way to build up some of the skills that you need to then protect against. And there's a lot of good, you know, cyber ranges out there. There's lots of good, just intentionally vulnerable applications that you can find on GitHub but that you can just run, you know, locally even on your machine and say, okay, now I have a little web app stood up. I know this is vulnerable. What do I do? How do I go and break it? Because then all of a sudden, the code that you're writing you start to think about a little bit differently. It's not just about how am I solving this product problem or this development problem? But it's, how am I doing this in a way that is safe and secure? Again, as an application side of things, you know, just make sure you know the OWASP Top 10 inside and out. Those are the most basic things a lot of engineers miss. And it only takes, again, one miss for it to be critical. So, start reviewing it. And then, you start to think about the tooling aspect of it. People are human. We're going to make mistakes. So, how do we use the power of technology to be able to stop this? You know, and there is static scanning tools. Like, there's a whole bunch of different ones out there. You know, Semgrep is a great one that's open source just to get started with that can help you find the vulnerable code that may exist there. Consider the SQL queries that you're writing, and most importantly, how you're writing them. You know, are you taking user input and just chucking it in there, or are you sanitizing it? When I ask these questions, for a lot of engineers, it's not usually yes or no. It's much more of an, well, I don't know. Because in software, we do a really good job of writing abstraction layers. But that also means, you know, to some extent, there may be a little bit of magic in there, or a lack thereof of magic that you don't necessarily know about. And so, you have to be able to dive into the libraries. You have to know what you're doing to even be able to say something like, oh no, this SQL query is safe from this user input because we have sanitized it. We have, you know, done a prepared statement, whatever it may be. Or, no, actually, we are just doing something here that's been vulnerable, and we didn't realize we were, and so now that's something we have to address. So, I think, like, that aspect in and of itself, which isn't, you know, a crazy ton of things. It's not spending a ton of money on different tools. But it's just internalizing the fact that you start to think a little bit differently. It provides a ton of value. The last thing on that, too, is to be able to say, especially if you're coming from a development side, or even just from a founder or a startup side of things, what are my big risks? What do I need to take care of first? What are the giant holes or flaws? You know, and what is my threat model around that? Obviously, as a bank, you have to care very deeply right from the start. You know, if you're not a bank, if you're not dealing with financial transactions, or PII, or anything like that, there are some things that you can deal with a little bit later. So, you have to know your industry, and you have to know what people are trying to do and the threat models and the threat vectors that can exist based on where you are. WILL: That's amazing. You know, earlier, we talked about you being an engineer for 20 years, different areas, and stuff like that. Do you have any advice for engineers that are starting out right now? And, you know, from probably year one to year, you know, anything under ten years of experience, do you have any advice that you usually give engineers when you're chatting with them? RISHI: The advice I tend to give people who are just starting out is be the type of person that asks, "How does this work?" Or "Why does this work?" And then do the work to figure out the answer. Maybe it is talking to someone; maybe it's diving into the details; maybe it's reading a book in some aspect that you haven't had much exposure to. When I look at my career and when I look at the careers of folks around me and the people that I've seen be most successful, both in engineering but also on the business side, that desire to know why something is the case is I think, one of the biggest things that determines success. And then the ability to answer that question by putting in the right types of work, the right types of scientific method and processes and such, are the other factor. So, to me, that's what I try and get across to people. I say that mostly to junior folks because I think when you're getting started, it's really difficult. There's a ton out there. And we've, again, as software engineers, and hardware engineers, and cloud, and all this kind of stuff, done a pretty good job of building a ton of abstraction layers. All of our abstraction layers [inaudible 32:28] to some degree. You know, so as you start, you know, writing a bunch of code, you start finding a bunch of bugs that you don't necessarily know how to solve and that don't make any sense in the avenue that you've been exposed to. But as soon as you get into the next layer, you understand how that works begin to make a lot more sense. So, I think being comfortable with saying, "I have no idea why this is the case, but I'm going to go find out," makes the biggest difference for people just starting out their career. WILL: I love that advice. Not too long ago, my manager encouraged me to write a blog post on something that I thought that I really knew. And when I started writing that blog post, I was like, oh boy, I have no idea. I know how to do it, but I don't know the why behind it. And so, I was very thankful that he encouraged me to write a blog post on it. Because once you start explaining it to other people, I feel you really have to know the whys. And so, I love that advice. That's really good advice. VICTORIA: Me too. And it makes sense with what we see statistically as well in the DORA research. The DevOps Research Association publishes a survey every year, the State of DevOps Report. And one of the biggest findings I remember from last year's was that the most secure and reliable systems have the most open communication and high trust among the teams. And so, being able to have that curiosity as a junior developer, you need to be in an environment where you can feel comfortable asking questions [laughs], and you can approach different people, and you're encouraged to make those connections and write blog posts like Will was saying. RISHI: Absolutely, absolutely. I think you touched on something very important there as well. The psychological safety really makes a big difference. And I think that's critical for, again, like, folks especially earlier in their career or have recently transitioned to tech, or whatever the case may be. Because asking "Why?" should be something that excites people, and there are companies where that's not necessarily the case, right? Where you asking why, it seems to be viewed as a sign that you don't know something, and therefore, you're not as good as what you should be, you know, the level you should be at or for whatever they expect. But I do think that's the wrong attitude. I think the more people ask why, the more people are able and comfortable to be able to say, "I don't know, but I'm going to go find out," and then being able to be successful with that makes way better systems. It makes way safer and more secure systems. And, honestly, I think it makes humans, in general, better humans because we can do that. VICTORIA: I think that's a great note to start to wrap up on. Is there any questions that you have for me or Will? RISHI: Yeah. I would love to hear from both of you as to what you see; with the experiences that you have and what you do, the biggest impediments or speed bumps are when it comes to developers being able to write and ship secure code. VICTORIA: When we're talking with new clients, it depends on where they are in really the adoption of their product and the maturity of their organization. Some early founders really have no technology experience. They have never managed an IT organization. You know, setting up basic employee account access and IDs is some of the initial steps you have to take to really get to where you can do identity management, and permissions management, and all the things that are really table stakes for security. And then others have some progress, and they have a fair amount of data. And maybe it's in that situation, like you said before, where it's really a trade-off between the cost and benefit of making those changes to a more secure, more best practice in the cloud or in their CI/CD pipeline or wherever it may be. And then, when you're a larger organization, and you have to make the trade-offs between all of that, and how it's impacting your developer experience, and how long are those deployed times now. And you might get fewer rates of errors and fewer rates of security vulnerabilities. But if it's taking three hours for your deployments to go out [laughs] because there's so many people, and there's so many checks to go through, then you have to consider where you can make some cuts and where there might be more efficiencies to be gained. So, it's really interesting. Everyone's on a different point in their journey. And starting with the basics, like you said, I love that you brought up the OWASP Top 10. We've been adopting the CIS Controls and just doing a basic internal security audit ourselves to get more ready and to be in a position where... What I'm familiar with as well from working in federal agencies, consulting, maintaining some of the older security frameworks can be a really high cost, not only in terms of auditing fees but what it impacts to your organization to, like, maintain those things [laughs] and the documentation required. And how do you do that in an agile way, in a way that really focuses on addressing the actual purpose of the requirements over needing to check a box? And how do we replicate that for our clients as well? RISHI: That is super helpful. And I think the checkbox aspect that you just discussed I think is key. It's a difficult position to be in when there are boxes that you have to check and don't necessarily actually add value when it comes to security or compliance or, you know, a decrease in risk for the company. And I think that one of the challenges industry-wide has always been that security and compliance in and of itself tends to move a little bit slower from a blue team or a protection perspective than the rest of the industry. And so, I mean, I can think of, you know, audits that I've been in where, you know, just even the fact that things were cloud-hosted just didn't make sense to the auditors. And it was a struggle to get them to understand that, you know, there is shared responsibility, and this kind of stuff exists, and AWS is taking care of some things, and we're taking care of some other things when they've just been developed with this on-premise kind of mentality. That is one of the big challenges that still exists kind of across the board is making sure that the security work that you're doing adds security value, adds business value. It isn't just checking the box for the sake of checking the box, even when that's sometimes necessary. VICTORIA: I am a pro box checker. RISHI: [laughs] VICTORIA: Like, I'll get the box checked. I'll use Trello and Confluence and any other tool besides Excel to do it, too. We'll make it happen with less pain, but I'd rather not do it [laughs] if we don't have to. RISHI: [laughs] VICTORIA: Let's make it easy. No, I love it. Is there anything else that you want to promote? RISHI: No, I don't think there's anything else I want to promote other than I'm going to go back to what I said just earlier, like, that culture. And if, you know, folks are out there and you have junior engineers, you have engineers that are asking "Why?", you have people that just want to do the right thing and get better, lean into that. Double down on those types of folks. Those are the ones that are going to make big differences in what you do as a business, and do what you can to help them out. I think that is something we don't see enough of in the industry still. And I would love for that to change. VICTORIA: I love that. Thank you so much, Rishi, for joining us. RISHI: Thanks for having me. This was a great conversation. I appreciate the time. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Rishi Malik.

Hi everyone, Today is a jam-packed episode covering everything from how to monetise your life, marketing mistakes you need to avoid making in your business or side hustle, the POWER of Pinterest and so much more! I'm talking to marketing mentor and business coach Hannah Brown (Digital Priestess). Hannah shares her journey to now serving people all over the world and helping them to monetise their lives! We are talking about how to deal with the overwhelm of all the social media platforms out there. How to PROPERLY use AI in your business without it feeling yuck. Which platforms you should (and shouldn't?) be on if you have a business. What to do if you don't want to be on camera but want to grow on social media and so much more. Hannah has also given you a special discount on her Pinterest to Profits course Go here: https://stan.store/digitalpriestess/p/pinterest-to-profits-academy- and use the code: Victoria You can follow Hannah on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/digital.priestess/ If you enjoyed this episode come and let me know! Instagram: @victoria.maskell Website: www.victoriamaskell.com Email: victoria@victoriamaskell.com

Amy Spurling is the Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. She explains how Compt's approach to benefits aligns with an employee's life stages, and shares insights from data that revealed the vast diversity of vendors utilized by employees. Amy talks about fundraising for Compt, highlighting the gender investment gap and the difficulties faced by female founders. She also shares her personal experiences as a lesbian founder and emphasizes the importance of a diverse workforce. She outlines Compt's mission to provide equitable compensation and foster a broader perspective within companies, the economic miss of not investing in female-founded companies, and the complexities of transitioning into different roles within a startup. Amy's leadership values of balance and belonging are explored, and she shares insights about navigating hurdles like SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. Additionally, they talk about trends in the tech industry, such as AI's use in healthcare and the potential for bias in software, along with data privacy issues. __ Compt.io (https://www.compt.io/) Follow Compt.io on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/compt/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/compthq/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ComptHQ), or Xr (https://twitter.com/ComptHQ). Follow Amy Spurling on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyspurling/) or X (https://twitter.com/amyspurling). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Amy Spurling, Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. Amy, thank you for joining. AMY: Thanks so much for having me. VICTORIA: Amy, I saw in your LinkedIn background that you have a picture of someone hiking in what looks like a very remote area. So, just to start us off today, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about that. And what's your hobby there? AMY: Sure. I do spend a lot of time backpacking. That picture, I believe, was actually taken in Mongolia a couple of years ago. We spent ten days kind of hiking around in, I mean, everything is backcountry basically in Mongolia. So, spending a lot of time walking around, looking at mountains, is kind of my pastime. WILL: I have a question around backpacking itself. When you say backpacking, what does that mean? Does it mean you only have a backpack, and you're out in the mountains, and you're just enjoying life? AMY: It depends. So, in Mongolia, there were a couple of folks with camels, so carrying the heavy gear for us but still living in tents. My wife and I just did a backpacking trip in the Accursed Mountains in Albania, though, and everything was on our backpack. So, you're carrying a 35-pound pack. It has all your food, your water, your camping gear, and you just go. And you're just kind of living off the land kind of. I mean, you're taking food, so it's not like I'm foraging or hunting but living in the outback. WILL: Wow. What does that do for you just internally, just getting off the grid, enjoying nature? Because I know with tech and everything now, it's kind of hard to do that. But you've done that, I think you said, for ten days. Like, walk us through that experience a little bit. AMY: Some people use yoga, things like that, to go to a zen place, be calm, you know, help quiet their mind. For me, I need to do something active, and that's what I use this for. So getting off away from my phone, away from my laptop—those are not available to me when I'm in the mountains—and just focusing on being very present and listening to the birds, smelling the flowers. You know, pushing myself to where I'm, you know, exerting a lot of energy hiking and just kind of being is just...it's pretty fantastic. VICTORIA: And I'm curious, what brought you to decide to go to Albania to get to that experience? Because that's not a top destination for many people. But -- AMY: It is not. So, we travel a fair amount, and we backpack a fair amount. And the mountains there are honestly some of the most beautiful I've seen anywhere in the world. And so, we're always looking for, where can you get off the grid pretty quickly? Where can you be in the mountains pretty quickly in a way that still has a path so that you're not putting yourself in danger? Unless...I mean, we've done that too. But you want to make sure you have a guide, obviously, if you're going completely no path, no trail kind of camping, too. But it just looked really beautiful. We planned it actually for three years ago and had to cancel because it was May of 2020. And so, we've had this trip kind of on the books and planned for it for a while. VICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, I know of Albania because I had a friend who worked there for a few years. And she said the rock climbing there is amazing. And it actually has one of the last wild rivers in Europe. So, it's just a very remote, very interesting place. So, it's funny that you went there [laughs]. I was like, wait, other people also go to Albania. That's awesome. I love the outdoor space. Well, what a great perk or benefit to working to be able to take those vacations and take that time off and spend it in a way that makes you feel refreshed. Tell me more about Compt and your background. What led you to found this company? AMY: Sure. I've been in tech companies for, you know, over 20 years. I've been a CFO, a COO building other people's dreams, so coming in as a primary executive, you know, first funding round type of person, help scale the team, manage finance and HR. And I loved doing that, but I got really frustrated with the lack of tools that I needed to be able to hire people and to retain people. Because the way we compensate people has changed for the last 10, 15 years. And so, ultimately, decided to build a platform to solve my own problem and my own team's problems, and started that getting close to six years ago now. But wanted to build a tech company in a very different way as well. So, in the same way, I take time off, I want my team to take time off. So, we operate on a basis of everyone should be taking their time off. Don't check in while you're out. We'll make sure we're covered. You know, let's build a sustainable business here. And everybody should be working 40 to 45 hours a week, which is definitely not a startup culture or norm. WILL: Yeah. I love that. I was doing some research on Compt. And so, in your words, can you explain to everyone exactly what your company does? AMY: Sure. So, we build lifestyle benefit accounts for companies. And what that means...and the terminology keeps changing, so some people may call them stipends or allowances. But it's really looking at how you pull together employee perks, benefits that will help compete for talent. And right now, retention is kind of the key driver for most companies. How do I keep the people I have really happy? Competitive salaries are obviously table stakes. Health insurance for most industries is table stakes. So, it's, what else are you offering them? You can offer a grab bag of stuff, which a lot of companies try and do, but you get very low utilization. Or you can do something like a stipend or a lifestyle spending account, which is what we build, which allows for complete flexibility so that every employee can do something different. So that even if you're offering wellness, you know, what the three of us think about as wellness is likely very different. I spend a lot of money at REI, like, they are basically, like, as big as my mortgage. I spend so much money there because I want backpacking gear. Wellness for you folks may be a little bit different. And so, allowing for that personalization so everybody can do something that matters to them. VICTORIA: Right. And I love that it comes from a problem you found in your own experience of working with early-stage startups and being on the executive level and finance and building teams from the ground up. So, I'm curious, what lessons did you find in your previous roles that were maybe ten times more important when you started your own company? AMY: I learned so much through all of my prior companies and pulled in the lessons of the things that worked really well but then also the things that it was, like, wow, I would definitely do that different. DEI is very important to us. I knew building a diverse team was going to be a competitive advantage for us. And none of my prior teams really met that mark. You know, most of them were Boston-based, the usual kind of profile of a tech company: 85%-95% White guys, mostly from MIT, you know, very, very talented, but also coached and trained by the same professors for the last 20 years. So, I knew I wanted different perspectives around the table, and that was going to be really key. So, looking at non-traditional backgrounds, especially as we were looking at hiring engineers, for instance, that was really interesting to me because I knew that would be part of our competitive advantage as we started building up this platform that is employee engagement but very much a tax compliance and budgeting tool as well. VICTORIA: I love hearing that. And it's something I've heard from actually thoughtbot's founder, Chad. That is something he wished he invested more in when he first started it. So, I'm curious as to how that's played out from when you started to where you are now. You said, I think, it's been six years, right? AMY: January will be six years, so five and a half-ish, I guess, right now. I mean, it was a stated part of what we were going to do from day one. All of my prior companies wanted that as well. I don't think anybody starts out and says, "Hey, I'd really love a one-note company." No one says that. Everybody thinks that they're doing the right things and hiring the best talent. But what you do is you end up hiring from your network, which usually looks just like you. And when you get to be, you know, 100, 150 people and you're looking around going, wow, we have some gaps here, it's really hard to fill them because who wants to be the first and the only of whatever? You know, I've been the only woman on most management teams. So, for us, it was day one, make it part of the focus and make sure we're really looking for the best talent and casting a very wide net. So, right now, we're sitting at 56% female and 36% people of color, and somewhere around 18%-19% LGBTQIA. So, we're trying to make sure that we're attracting all those amazing perspectives. And they're from people from around the country, which I also think is really important when you're building a tech company. Don't just build in areas where you're in your little tech bubble. If you want to build a product that actually services everyone, you need to have other kind of cultural and country perspectives as well. VICTORIA: Yeah. And that makes perfect sense for what you described earlier for Compt, that it is supposed to be flexible to provide health benefits or wellness benefits to anyone. And there can be a lot of different definitions of that. So, it makes sense that your team reflects the people that you're building for. AMY: Exactly. WILL: Yeah. How does that work? How does Compt accomplish that? Because I know early on I was doing nonprofits and I was a decent leader. But I struggle to get outside of myself, my own bubble if that makes sense. So, like, that was before I had kids. I had no idea what it meant to have kids and just the struggles and everything if you have kids. So, there's so many different things that I've learned over the years that, like, just people have their own struggles. So, how does Compt accomplish the diversity of a company? AMY: So, it's so interesting you mentioned that. I was on a podcast the other day with somebody who was, like, "You know, we didn't really think about our benefits and how important they were." And then, the founder who was the person on the podcast, and he was like, "But then I had kids. And suddenly, I realized, and we had this amazing aha moment." I'm like, well, it's great you had the aha moment. But let's back it up and do this before the founder has children. Sometimes you need to recognize the entire team needs something different and try and support them. My frustration with the tools out there are there are tools that are like, hey, we're a DE&I platform. We will help you with that. You know, we've got a benefit for fertility. We've got a benefit for, you know, elder care. There's all kinds of benefits. These are great benefits, but they're also very, very specific in how they support an employee. And it's very small moment in time, usually. Whereas with something like Compt, where we say, "Hey, we support family," your version of family, having children is very different from my version of family, where I don't have children, but we both have families. And we can both use that stipend in a way that is meaningful for us. What puts the employee back in charge, what matters in their lives, instead of the company trying to read everyone's mind, which is honestly a no-win situation for anyone. So, it just makes it very, very broad. VICTORIA: Yes. And I've been on both sides, obviously, as an employee, but also previously role of VP of Operations. And trying to design benefits packages that are appealing, and competitive, and fair is a challenging task. So -- AMY: It's impossible. It's impossible. [laughs] VICTORIA: Very hard. And I'm curious what you found in the early stages of Compt that was surprising to you in the discovery process building the product. AMY: So, for me, I mean, discovery was I am the buyer for this product. So, I wanted this about five years before I decided to go and build it. And I was talking to other finance and HR professionals going around going, "All right, are you feeling this exact same pain that I'm feeling? Because it is getting completely insurmountable." We were all being pitched all these different platforms and products. Everybody had something they wanted to sell through HR to help attract, and engage and retain talent and all the things, right? But there's no tracking. It's not taxed correctly. And ultimately, no matter what you bring in, maybe 2% to 3% of your team would use it. So, you're spending all this time and energy in putting all this love into wanting to support your team, and then nobody uses the stuff that you bring in because it just doesn't apply to them. And so, I realized, like, my pivotal moment was, all right, none of this is working. I've been waiting five years for somebody to build it. Let's go build something that is completely vendor-agnostic. There's no vendors on this platform by design because everyone ultimately wants something different. And, you know, through that process, we were, of course, pushed by many VCs who said, "Hey, build your marketplace, build your marketplace, you know, that's going to be your moat and your special sauce." And I said, "No, no, no, that's not what we're going to do here because that doesn't solve that problem." And we finally had the data to prove it, which is fantastic. You know, we actually did a sample of 8,700 people on our platform, and we watched them for a year. And said, "How many different vendors are these 8,700 people going to use?" Because that's the marketplace we'd have to build because we have 91% employee engagement. Nobody can beat us in the industry. We've got the highest employee engagement of any platform in our category. So, how many different vendors could 8,700 people use in that time period? Do you guys have any guesses how many they used in that time period to get to that engagement? VICTORIA: Out of 8,700 vendors? AMY: No, 8,700 employees. So, how many different vendors they used in that time period. VICTORIA: Hmm, like, per employee, I could see maybe, like, 10? I don't know. Two? AMY: We saw 27,000 different vendors used across all the employees, so 27,000 different unique vendors. So, on average, every employee wants three unique vendors that no one else is using. VICTORIA: Oh wow. WILL: Wow. VICTORIA: Yeah, okay. [laughter] Right. AMY: So, it's just you can't build that, I mean, you could build that marketplace, but nobody's going to visit that marketplace because nobody wants to scroll through 27,000 things. And so, it just keeps changing. You know, and I saw that even with the woman who started the company with me, you know, when she...we, of course, use Compt internally. And she started using her wellness stipend. You know, at first, she was doing 5Ks. So, she'd register for the race. She'd go train. She'd do all the things. Then she got pregnant and had a baby and started shifting over to prenatal vitamins, to Lamaze classes, to, you know, mommy yoga, things like that. Then once she had the baby, it shifted again. And so, it allows for a company to flow with an employee's lifecycle without having to get into an employee's life stage and, "Hey, what do you need at this moment in time?" Employees can self-direct that, so it makes it easier for employees and a lot easier for companies who are not trying to...we don't want to map out every single moment of our employee's personal life. We shouldn't be involved in that. And so, this is a way to support them but also give them a little space too. WILL: I absolutely love that because that is, yes, that is a flow. Like, before you have kids, it's, like, yes, I can go run these 5Ks; I can do this. When you have kids, it totally changes. Like, okay, what can I do with my kids? So, workout, or that's my away time. So, I love that it's an ebb and flow with the person. And they can pick their own thing, like -- AMY: Right. We're all adults. WILL: Yes. [laughs] AMY: I think I sat there going; why am I dictating someone's health and wellness regimen? I am not qualified for this on any stretch. Like, why am I dictating what somebody's mental health strategy should be? That's terrifying. You're adults. You work with your professionals. We'll support it. WILL: Yes. I remember at one company I worked for; they had this gym that they had, you know, got a deal with. And I was so frustrated because I was like, that's, like, 45 minutes away from my house. AMY: [laughs] Right. WILL: It's a perk, but it means absolutely nothing to me. I can't use it. So yes, yeah. [laughs] AMY: Well, and, like, not everybody wants to work, say...there was, you know, we see a lot of that is there's been a transition over time. COVID really changed that as people couldn't go to gyms, and companies shifted to stipends. But you may not want to work out with your co-workers, and that's okay, too. Like, it's okay to want to do your own thing and be in your own space, which is where we see this kind of decline of the, you know, on-site company gym, which, you know, some people just don't want to do that. VICTORIA: Yeah. So, I love that you stayed true to this problem that you found and you backed it up with data. So, you're like, here's clear data on, say, why those VCs' advice was bad [laughs] about the marketplace. AMY: Ill-informed. They needed data to see otherwise. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I'm curious about your experience going through fundraising and starting up for Compt with your background as a CFO and how that was for you. AMY: It was...I naively thought it would be easier for me, and maybe it was because I had all this experience raising money as a CFO in all these prior companies. But the reality is that women receive less than 2% of all funding, even though we start 50% of the businesses. And if you look at, you know, Black female founders, they're receiving, like, 0.3, 0.5% of funding. Like, it's just...it's not nice out there. You know, on average, a lot of VCs are looking at 3,000, 4,000, or 5000 different companies a year and investing in 10. And so, the odds of getting funded are very, very low, which means that you're just going to experience a whole lot of unique situations as a female founder. I saw that you folks work with LOLA, which is fantastic. I'm a huge fan of LOLA and kind of what their founders put together. And I've heard some amazing things about the pitches that she's done for VCs and that she's just not shy about what she's building. And I really appreciate that. It's never a fun situation. And it gets easier the later stages because you have more metrics, and data, and all of that. And we ultimately found phenomenal investors that I'm very, very happy to have as part of our journey. But it's definitely...it's not pretty out there is the reality. VICTORIA: Right. And I saw that you either attended or put on an event about the gender investment gap, which I think is what you just referred to there as well. So, I'm curious how that conversation went and if there were any insights about what the industry can do to promote more investment in women and people of color founders. AMY: So, that's actually coming up August 10th, and so that's coming up in a few weeks that we're going to be hosting that. I'm actually part of a small group that is spearheading some legislation in Massachusetts to help change this funding dynamic for female founders, which I'm pretty excited about. And California also has some legislation they're looking at right now. In Mass, we're looking at how fair lending laws can apply to venture capital. There are laws on the books on how capital gets distributed when you look at the banking system. But there's virtually no regulation when you look at venture funding, and there's no accountability, and there's no metrics that anybody is being held to. I don't believe that you know, just because I pitched a VC that they should be funding me, you know, it needs to be part of their thesis and all of those things. But when you see so much disparity in what is happening out there, bias is coming into play. And there needs to be something that helps level that playing field. And so, that's where legislation comes into play and helps change that dynamic. So, pretty excited about the legislation that's before both the Senate and the Mass State House, likely going to be heard this November. So, we're pretty excited about that. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. WILL: So, Amy, you're talking a lot about diversity, inclusion, and just biases, and things like that. You're doing a great job with it. Your product is perfect for that because it reaches so many different levels. And I just want to ask you, why are you so passionate about it? Why is this so important to you? AMY: For me, personally, I am a lesbian founder. I am the only, you know, LGBTQ in many of my companies. And I'm always the, I mean, very frequently, the only woman in the boardroom, the only woman on the leadership team. That's not super comfortable, honestly. When you are having to fight for your place at the table, and you see things that could be done differently because you're bringing a different perspective, that, to me, is a missed opportunity for companies and for employees as well who, you know, there's amazing talent out there. If you're only looking at one flavor of talent, you're missing the opportunity to really build a world-class organization. And so, to me, it's both the personal side where I want to work with the best people. I want to work with a lot of different perspectives. I want to work with people who are bringing things to the table that I haven't thought about. But also, making sure that we're creating an environment where those people can feel comfortable as well, and so people don't feel marginalized or tokenized and have the ability to really bring their best selves to work. That's really important to me. It's a reflection of the world around us. It's bringing out the best in all of us. And so, for me, that's the environment I want to create in my own company. And it's also what I want to help companies be able to foster within their companies because I think a lot of companies really do want that. They just don't know how to go about it. They don't have actual tools to support a diverse team. You pay for things for the people you have, and then you hire more people like the people you have. We want to be a tool to help them expand that very organically and make it a lot easier to support a broader perspective of people. VICTORIA: I appreciate that. And it speaks to something you said earlier about 50% of the businesses are started by women. And so, if you're not investing in them, there's a huge market and huge potential and opportunity there that's just not -- AMY: The economic miss is in the trillions, is what's been estimated. Like, it's an absolute economic miss. I mean, you also have the statistics of what female-founded companies do. We tend to be more profitable. We tend to be more capital efficient. We tend to, you know, have better outcomes. It's just so the economics of it are there. It's just trying to get folks to understand where their biases are coming into play and funding things that may be a little outside their comfort zone. VICTORIA: Right. That's going to be a big project to undo all of that. So, each piece that works towards it to break it down, I think, is really important. And it seems like Compt is a great tool for companies to start working towards that, at least in the equity of their benefits, which is -- [laughs] AMY: Exactly. Because, I mean, if people can't use a perk, then it's inequitable compensation. And if you have inequitable compensation, you're already going down that path. You end up with wage gaps, and then you end up with promotion gaps. And all these things feed into each other. So, we're just trying to chip away at one piece of the problem. There's lots of places that this needs to be adjusted and changed over time. But we want to at least chip away at that one piece where this piece of compensation can be equitable and support everyone. WILL: Yeah, I love that. I was looking at your LinkedIn. And it looks like you've been almost, later this year, maybe six years of Compt. What was some of the early traction? Like, how was it in the early days for you? AMY: It was an interesting transition for me, going from CFO and COO over to the CEO role. That was easier in some ways than I thought it was going to be and harder in other ways. You know, on the easy side, I've already done fundraising. I understand how to write a business model, and look at financial plans, and make sure the concept is viable and all the things. But I also am not an engineer. I'm not a product designer. And so needed to make sure we immediately surrounded ourselves with the right talent and the right help to make sure that we could build the right product, pull the things out of my brain that are conceptual but definitely not product design. No one wants me touching product design. I've been barred from all codebases in this company. They don't want me touching anything, with good reason. And so, making sure that we have those right people to build and design the software in a way that functionally makes sense. VICTORIA: I think that is great that...I laughed when you said that you are barred from touching any of the code. [laughs] It's like, you're able to...I think a strong leader recognizes when other people have the expertise and makes space for them to do their best work. I also see that, at the same time, you've been a mentor with the MassChallenge group. And I'm curious if you have a most frequent piece of advice that you give to founders and people starting out building great products. AMY: The biggest piece of advice, I think, is to make sure you're taking care of yourself through this process. It's an exhausting process to build a company. And there's always way more that you should be doing every day than you can possibly get done. And if you just completely absorb yourself in it, you're going to end up burning out. So, making sure that you rest, that you still make time to exercise and to move, and that you spend time with family. All of those things, I think, are really, really important. That's been part of our core tenets. From day one, I said, "No more than 40 to 45 hours a week." It doesn't mean I'm not thinking about this business far more than 45 hours a week, but I'm not going to sit behind a computer that many hours in a week because I will burn out. And if I'm out and I'm reading something, or I'm, you know, going for a walk, I'm going to have moments of inspiration because I can actually have those creative thoughts firing when I'm not just putting out fires. And so, I think that's really, really important for founders to make sure they take that time and allow their brains to clear a little bit so that they can build more efficiently, build faster, and have really good critical reasoning skills. WILL: I love that you not only have the product to, you know, help taking time off, but you also are preaching it per se, like, take time off. Don't work more than 40-45 hours. Like, take care of yourself. So, I love that advice that you're giving is right in the message with your product. So, I love it. AMY: Thank you. I do hammer home with this team. What we build is obviously very, very important to me, but how we build this company is equally important. We spend just as much time thinking about how we're building and designing this company internally as we do about our product because they need to be a virtuous cycle between the two, quite frankly. And so, if they aren't aligned, we're going to fail. WILL: Definitely. Wow. Awesome. What does success look like for you and Compt in the next, you know, six months to a year? AMY: For us, it's really about reaching as many people as possible. So, how do we have an impact on as many lives as possible and help people be able to access this piece of their compensation? What is interesting right now is we're in a really interesting moment. The tech industry is going through...shall we call it an awakening? Where money is tighter. There's been some layoffs. You know, it's just a very different world in tech right now. And everybody's in a little bit of a holding pattern to figure out, okay, what's next? What we're seeing across our portfolio of companies is that there's a lot of industries that are, for the first time, really thinking about how do we retain folks? How do we think about hiring in a new way? So, industries like construction and manufacturing. Industries that never had employee kind of lifestyle benefits or perks they're taking a look at that because unemployment is so, so low. And so, for the first time ever, we have the ability to have an impact on groups that never had access to professional development, to wellness, to things like that. And that's really exciting because you can have such a huge, impactful moment where people have just been without for so long. And so, that's pretty exciting for us. VICTORIA: You're touching upon a topic that I've thought about before, where in the tech industry, we're used to having a lot of benefits and perks and that not every industry is the same way. So, I'm curious; you mentioned construction and some other groups that are looking to adopt more of these benefits because unemployment is so low. I'm curious, like, if there are any patterns or things that you see, like, specific industries that are more interested than others, or what's going on there? AMY: Our portfolio of tech companies are only about...they're less than 40% of our customers, actually. So, a relatively low percentage of our customers come from the tech industry. What we find is that healthcare systems this is really important. As you're thinking about how you're going to retain nursing staff, it is incredibly difficult. And so, we see a lot of movement in the healthcare space. We see a lot of movement, again, across manufacturing and construction, you know, financial services. Pretty much anybody who is struggling to hire and is worried about retaining is trying to figure out what's my strategy? How do I do this in the least expensive way possible but reach everyone? Because those employee engagement metrics are so consistently important to look at. And most platforms and things that you could be doing out there are going to give you a 2% to 3% utilization. So, it's very, very low. You know, wellness is by far the most common use case we see companies putting in place. It's good for employees. It's good for the employer. That's by far the most important or the most common. But we also see things like family, and just more of a whole well-being kind of concept as well, so beyond wellness, so allowing for that broader reach. We're also seeing industries where people are starting to age out. So, we've got five generations at work right now. There's industries where folks have historically stayed forever. You know, you've got the people who have been there 20-30 years. Well, those same industries are now sitting there going, all right, how do I get the next two generations to come in here? Because it's such an old-guard and old approach. We've got to change things up. And so, we're seeing a pretty big cultural shift happen within a lot of these more nascent industries. WILL: Yeah. I can definitely see how that would be tough going from, you know, you said five generations are currently in the workforce? AMY: Yep. WILL: I didn't even think about that. Wow. AMY: Yeah, you got a lot of different parts of the life cycle. You know, think about professional development. Professional development for a 22-year-old is very different from professional development for a 65-year-old. But both are in the workplace, and both want to keep learning. It's just what your needs are and what you need to learn. And how you want to learn is going to be very, very different. WILL: Wow. So true. I love how you're talking about your leadership and just the way you lead. I can just hear it in what you're saying. What are some of your core values that drive you every day? AMY: One of the big ones, and it probably goes back to, you know, I'm sure, birth placement, whatever. I'm an oldest child, all the things that come with being an oldest child. But fairness is a really big one for me. And so, it's thinking about how we apply that as a company, so equitable compensation falls under that. Making sure that we've got a team that is balanced and diverse is really important to me. You know, thinking, you know, our core values are balance and belonging. That runs through absolutely everything that we do and is core and central to it. Because, again, how we build this company is just as important to me as what we're building. And so, making sure that we hold true to those values is critical because we have amazing people, and they need to feel supported as well. VICTORIA: Well, that really comes through in everything that you say and that we've talked about so far today, and I really appreciate that. And I'm curious if you could go back in time to when you first started Compt and tell yourself any piece of advice or information; what would you say? AMY: That piece of advice has changed over time; I will tell you that. The one that is most recent for me is really because we're an HR tech platform, and we service, you know, an entire organization, is really thinking about how you support different industries at different moments in time, the concept of product-market fit. When you're that type of a platform, which there aren't many, there's not many platforms that sit across an entire organization, but compensation is one of them. You need to be thinking about which industries are struggling to hire, which are struggling to retain at this moment in time. And so, I don't think there's one place, like, hey, we have product-market fit, now we can scale. I think that's a misnomer for our part of the HR tech space. And so, it's constant experimentation on go-to-market strategy and constant kind of adjustment as markets ebb and flow over time. WILL: What is some of your biggest hurdles right now or even in the future that you can see coming? AMY: If I had a crystal ball, life would definitely be easier. I'd love to know when this economic cycle is going to shift and, you know when things get a little bit easier for companies. You know, HR leaders and finance leaders are not having the most fun at this moment in time. They're being tasked with making everybody happy but on very small budgets, and so they're really challenged with that. And they're really burnt out, and they're exhausted. So, I'm looking forward to a shift so when people can get back to feeling a little bit physically better. But also, it just helps navigate a market and be better able to support your employees. VICTORIA: I've been thinking about that question recently, what I would tell my past self, and I think it's mostly, like, food related. [laughter] AMY: Ooh, interesting. VICTORIA: Use better vinegars, like, invest in fancier olive oil. [laughs] AMY: So, my new luxury pro-tip is you buy a $7 bunch of eucalyptus at the grocery store, and you tie it above your shower head. I'm not kidding; you will feel like you're at a spa. It costs $7. I learned it because I was at some fancy resort. One of my investors, you know, paid for us to go to a conference that I was not paying for. And I was like, that is genius. You suddenly feel like you are in someplace fancy, and it was seven bucks. It's amazing. WILL: Yes. VICTORIA: That sounds incredible. I'm going to do that. WILL: Same. [laughter] VICTORIA: [inaudible 34:35] buy some. No, it's so good. Do you have any questions for us, Amy? AMY: Yeah. I mean, what trends are you seeing in the market right now? Like, what types of companies are being developed? Where do you see growth happening in the market? VICTORIA: That's probably a better question for me. As a managing director, I spend more time networking and going to events. And it's interesting being in San Diego. There's a big biotech startup here. So, I went to an EvoNexus Demo Day and saw the things that people were using. And there seemed to be a trend of using AI and machine learning to create better health outcomes, whether that's for predictors for which people will respond better to anti-cancer drugs, or, you know, how do we monitor the release of drugs for someone's system who's, you know, going through methadone in therapy. So, it's really interesting. I think that you know, you mentioned that there's not the same amount of money in the tech market, but I think there is still a lot of work being done to solve real problems that people have. So yeah, I'm really curious to see those types of projects and which ones are going to be successful, and how much the AI trend will really fade out. Like, clearly, in some use cases, you can see how beneficial it could be. And other times, it seems like it's kind of just like slapped on there for -- AMY: Agreed. VICTORIA: Marketing purposes, so... AMY: That's really just a database query. It's not AI. [laughs] VICTORIA: Right. [laughs] It's interesting because, you know, I just had lunch with a bunch of other CTOs in San Diego, and we were talking about AI, and some of the inherent risks of it, and the damage it can cause. And I always like to bring it back to, like, there are some people who are already harmed by these trends. And we have to work around that. Like, there is some, you know, greater supposed existential threat with AI that I think is rather unlikely. But if we think about that too much and not focus on the current harm that's being done, then that's, you know, more dangerous than the other one. AMY: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely, I mean, even just with facial recognition and how that's applied and what that's used for. I mean, any software that is built with people has bias. And so, whatever biases they're bringing into it is the bias that's going to exist in the software. And so, there's...we already are starting from, you know, going back to our earlier conversation, if companies are not diverse and not building for really diverse perspectives, they're inherently going to build bias software, whether or not, I mean, I don't think that's anybody's intention. But that's what's going to happen because you just didn't think about things you didn't know. VICTORIA: Right. And, of course, I'm here in Southern California. There's the strikes for the actors and writers' strike happening a few hours north of us. And they were actually, you know, for some actors, signing away their rights to their likeness. AMY: Wow. VICTORIA: And then they could make an AI image and -- AMY: Wow. You could just create an entire movie with somebody's image and dub in a voice, and suddenly you don't need actors. VICTORIA: Right. And it's, of course, more often non-White actors and models who are being replaced. And so, I think that's a very interesting trend that people may not have thought about yet. AMY: Fascinating. VICTORIA: So yeah, I mean, having people on your leadership team who are thinking about these [laughs] different types of issues, like, yeah, I think it's really important. And then also, from, like, a data privacy perspective, all the laws that are coming out and that have come out. And I think that some founders and CTOs are really struggling with how to comply and protect everyone's data that way. AMY: No. It's something we think about a lot because we have the potential to have access to a lot of employee data. We take a very minimalist approach stated, not a big data play. That's not what we're here for. That's not what we're trying to do, this mountain of data on people, and then we'll figure out how to monetize it. We want to build something a little bit different. And so using only data that needs to be used so that we can truly support people with what our actual goal and aim is, rather than having that be a secondary cause. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about that actually because you have SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. And it's a topic that I think a lot of founders know that security is important, but it can be a significant investment. So, I'm curious your trade-offs and your timing for when you went for those compliance frameworks. AMY: We went early for it. I mean, so our platform, I mean, we're integrated with payroll platforms. We're touching employee data. So, we went for it early because we knew that it was going to be important, and it's a lot easier to do it before you make a mess than it is after the fact. I've done SOC 2 compliance in two prior companies. It's not fun. It is not my most fun thing that I've ever done. Fortunately, there are geniuses out there who built platforms to make this very, very easy now. We use a platform called Vanta that is absolutely incredible, made it super easy to get SOC 2 compliant, go through our audits, do all the things, so that, at least, is a lot easier. But it was something that we needed the funding to invest in. It's not inexpensive. But we knew that it was going to be critical because people need to feel that their data is secure and that you know what you're doing, and that you're not just kind of flying by the seat of your pants. There's a lot of tech companies that operate on, we'll figure out the tax, or we'll figure out the law. We'll figure out the compliance later. And that's been a stated part of their mission. That's just not the way I'm going to operate. And that doesn't work very well when you're dealing with HR, quite frankly, or finance because we have to comply with laws. So, getting ahead of that early was part of our strategy. VICTORIA: That makes sense. Your finance background making it clear what the legal implications are. [laughs] AMY: Exactly. Like, I'm not messing around with the IRS. Nobody wants to get audited by the IRS. It's not fun. Let's just keep things tax compliant. Chances are you're not going to get audited by the IRS. But if you are a tech company, if you do want to go public, if you do want to be acquired likely from a public company, you have to have these things in order because otherwise, it's coming off your purchase price or your stock price because you've got disclosures you've got to put out there, so little hidden, nasty gotchas. And it can be a six-year lookback period. So, you're like, oh, I'll worry about it later. Six years is a long time. And if you start messing around with that, it gets very, very expensive to clean up. So, just do it right from the beginning. You know, the same way you're doing payroll correctly now, invest a little bit, and it makes it a lot easier. VICTORIA: Yeah, I agree. And I think the tooling that's out there makes it a little bit easier; at least then, you know you have the confidence that your data is protected. Especially if you're a non-technical founder, I can imagine that makes you feel better that things are the way they should be. AMY: Exactly. Somebody has looked at this thing. Somebody is making sure that it's working the way it's supposed to. You know, that definitely helps when you're a non-technical founder, or just not a tax expert, or a legal expert, you know, around these things. It's not even the technical founders that have to worry about it. Data comes in all kinds of forms. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. AMY: This has been a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed it. VICTORIA: Well, thank you. WILL: Same. VICTORIA: I've enjoyed it as well. I really appreciate you taking the time. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Amy Spurling.

Sean O'Connor is the Director of Engineering at Datadog. Datadog is the essential monitoring and security platform for cloud applications. Sean discusses his transition from an individual contributor to management and shares why he chose Datadog, emphasizing the appeal of high-scale problems and the real business nature of the company. They delve into the importance of performance management and observability and cover the cultural and technical challenges Sean faces in managing a diverse, geographically spread team, and discuss the transition at Datadog from a decentralized model to more centralized platforms, the corresponding changes in both technical strategies and people management, and what excites him about Datadog's future, including the integration of security offerings into developers' daily experiences, and the evolution of Kubernetes and internal build and release tooling. __ Datadog (https://www.datadoghq.com/) Follow Datadog on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/datadog/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/datadoghq/), Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/DatadogHQ), or Twitter (https://twitter.com/datadoghq). Follow Sean O'Connor on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanoc/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/theSeanOC). Visit his website at seanoc.com (https://seanoc.com/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Sean O'Connor. He is the Director of Engineering at Datadog. Datadog is the essential monitoring and security platform for cloud applications. Sean, thank you for joining us. SEAN: Hi, thanks for having me on. VICTORIA: Yeah, I'm super excited to get to talking with you about everything cloud, and DevOps, and engineering. But why don't we first start with just a conversation about what's going on in your life? Is there any exciting personal moment coming up for you soon? SEAN: Yeah, my wife and I are expecting our first kiddo in the next few weeks, so getting us prepared for that as we can and trying to get as much sleep as we can. [laughs] WILL: Get as much sleep as you can now, so...[laughs] I have a question around that. When you first found out that you're going to be a dad, what was your feeling? Because I remember the feeling that I had; it was a mixed reaction of just everything. So, I just wanted to see what was your reaction whenever you found out that you're going to be a dad for the first time. SEAN: Yeah, I was pretty excited. My wife and I had been kind of trying for this for a little while. We're both kind of at the older end for new parents in our late 30s. So, yeah, excited but definitely, I don't know, maybe a certain amount of, I don't know about fear but, you know, maybe just concerned with change and how different life will be, but mostly excitement and happiness. [laughs] WILL: Yeah, I remember the excitement and happiness. But I also remember, like, wait, I don't know exactly what to do in this situation. And what about the situations that I have no idea about and things like that? So, I will tell you, kids are resilient. You're going to do great as a dad. [laughter] SEAN: Yep. Yeah, definitely; I think I feel much more comfortable about the idea of being a parent now than I may have been in my 20s. But yeah, definitely, the idea of being responsible for and raising a whole other human is intimidating. [laughs] VICTORIA: I think the fact that you're worried about it is a good sign [laughs], right? SEAN: I hope so. [laughs] VICTORIA: Like, you understand that it's difficult. You're going to be a great parent just by the fact that you understand it's difficult and there's a lot of work ahead. So, I think I'm really excited for you. And I'm glad we get to talk to you at this point because probably when the episode comes out, you'll be able to listen to it with your new baby in hand. So... WILL: Good. Excited for it. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, love that. Well, great. Well, why don't you tell me a little bit more about your other background, your professional background? What brought you to the role you're into today? SEAN: Yeah. Well, like we mentioned in the beginning; currently, I'm a Director of Engineering at Datadog. I run our computing cloud team. It's responsible for all of our Kubernetes infrastructure, as well as kind of all the tooling for dealing with the cloud providers that we run on and as well as kind of [inaudible 02:54] crypto infrastructure. Within Datadog, I've always been in management roles though I've kind of bounced around. I've been here for about five and a half years. So, before this, I was running a data store infrastructure team. Before that, when I first came in, I was running the APM product team, kind of bounced around between product and infra. And that's kind of, I guess, been a lot of the story of much of my career is wearing lots of different hats and kind of bouncing around between kind of infrastructure-focused roles and product-focused roles. So, before this, I was running the back-end engineering and DevOps teams at Bitly. So, I was there for about five and a half years, started there originally as a software engineer. And before that, a lot of early-stage startups and consulting doing whatever needed doing, and getting to learn about lots of different kind of industries and domains, which is always fun. [laughs] VICTORIA: That's great. So, you had that broad range of experience coming from all different areas of operations in my mind, which is, like, security and infrastructure, and now working your way into a management position. What was the challenge for you in making that switch from being such a strong individual contributor into an effective manager? SEAN: Sure. You know, I think certainly there is a lot of kind of the classic challenges of learning to let go but still staying involved, right? You know, as a manager, if you're working on critical path tasks hands-on yourself, that's probably not a good sign. [laughs] On the other hand, if you come, like, completely divorced from what your team is doing, especially as, like, a team lead level kind of manager, you know, that's not great either. So, figuring that balancing act definitely was a bit tricky for me. Similarly, I think time management and learning to accept that, especially as you get into, like, further steps along in your career that, like, you know, it's not even a question of keeping all the balls in the air, but more figuring out, like, what balls are made out of rubber and which ones are made out of glass, and maybe keeping those ones in the air. [laughs] So, just a lot of those kind of, like, you know, prioritization and figuring out, like, what the right level of involvement and context is, is definitely the eternal learning, I think, for me. [laughs] WILL: I remember whenever I was looking to change jobs, kind of my mindset was I wanted to work at thoughtbot more because of the values. And I wanted to learn and challenge myself and things like that. And it was so much more, but those were some of the main items that I wanted to experience in my next job. So, when you changed, and you went from Bitly to Datadog, what was that thing that made you say, I want to join Datadog? SEAN: Yeah, that was definitely an interesting job search and transition. So, at that point in time, I was living in New York. I was looking to stay in New York. So, I was kind of talking to a bunch of different companies. Both from personal experience and from talking to some friends, I wasn't super interested in looking at, like, working at mostly, like, the super big, you know, Google, Amazon, Meta type of companies. But also, having done, like, super early stage, you know, like, seed, series A type of companies, having played that game, I wasn't in a place in my life to do that either. [laughs] So, I was looking kind of in between that space. So, this would have been in 2018. So, I was talking to a lot of, like, series A and series B-type companies. And most of them were, like, real businesses. [laughs] Like, they may not be profitable yet, but, like, they had a very clear idea of how they would get there and, like, what that would look like. And so, that was pleasant compared to some past points in my career. But a lot of them, you know, I was effectively doing, like, automation of human processes, which is important. It has value. But it means that, like, realistically, this company will never have more than 50 servers. And when I worked at Bitly, I did have a taste for kind of working in those high-scale, high-availability type environments. So, Datadog initially was appealing because it kind of checked all those boxes of, you know, very high-scale problems, high availability needs, a very real business. [laughs] This is before Datadog had gone public. And then, as I started to talk to them and got to know them, I also really liked a lot of kind of the culture and all the people I interacted with. So, it became a very clear choice very quickly as that process moved along. VICTORIA: Yeah, a very real business. Datadog is one of the Gartner's Magic leaders for APM and observability in the industry. And I understand you're also one of the larger SaaS solutions running Kubernetes, right? SEAN: Yep. Yeah, at this point. Five years ago, that story was maybe a little bit different. [laughs] But yeah, no, no, we definitely have a pretty substantial Kubernetes suite that we run everything on top of. And we get the blessings and curses of we get some really cool problems to work on, but there's also a lot of problems that we come across that when we talk to kind of peers in the industry about kind of how they're trying to solve them, they don't have answers yet either. [laughs] So, we get to kind of figure out a lot of that kind of early discovery games. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. I like how exciting and growing this industry is around kind of your compute and monitoring the performance of your applications. I wonder if you could kind of speak to our audience a little bit, who may not have a big technical background, about just why it's important to think about performance management and observability early on in your application. SEAN: There can be a few pieces there. One of the bigger ones, I think, is thinking about that kind of early and getting used to working with that kind of tooling early in a project or a product. I think it has an analogous effect to, like, thinking about, like, compounding interest in, like, a savings account or investing or something like that. In that, by having those tools available early on and having that visibility available early on, you can really both initially get a lot of value and just kind of understanding kind of what's happening with your system and very quickly troubleshoot problems and make sure things are running efficiently. But then that can help get to a place where you get to that, like, flywheel effect as you're kind of building your product of, as you're able to solve things quickly, that means you have more time to invest in other parts of the product, and so on and so forth. So, yeah, it's one of those things where kind of the earlier you can get started on that, the more that benefit gets amplified over time. And thankfully, with Datadog and other offerings like that now, you can get started with that relatively quickly, right? You're not having to necessarily make the choice of, like, oh, can I justify spending a week, a month, whatever, setting up all my own infrastructure for this, as opposed to, you know, plugging in a credit card and getting going right away? And not necessarily starting with everything from day zero but getting started with something and then being able to build on that definitely can be a worthwhile trade-off. [laughs] VICTORIA: That makes sense. And I'm curious your perspective, Will, as a developer on our Lift Off team, which is really about the services around that time when you want to start taking it really seriously. Like, you've built an app [laughs]. You know it's a viable product, and there's a market for it. And just, like, how you think about observability when you're doing your app building. WILL: The approach I really take is, like, what is the end goal? I'm currently on a project right now that we came in later than normal. We're trying to work through that. SEAN: I haven't come from, you know, that kind of consulting and professional services and support kind of place. I'm curious about, like, what, if any, differences or experiences do you have, like, in that context of, like, how do you use your observability tools or, like, what value they have as opposed to maybe more, like, straight product development? VICTORIA: Right. So, we recently partnered with, you know, our platform engineering team worked with the Lift Off team to create a product from scratch. And we built in observability tools with Prometheus, and Grafana, and Sentry so that the developers could instrument their app and build metrics around the performance in the way they expected the application to work so that when it goes live and meets real users, they're confident their users are able to actually use the app with a general acceptable level of latency and other things that are really key to the functionality of the app. And so, I think that the interesting part was, with the founders who don't have a background in IT operations or application monitoring and performance, it sort of makes sense. But it's still maybe a stretch to really see the full value of that, especially when you're just trying to get the app out the door. SEAN: Nice. VICTORIA: [chuckles] That's my answer. What kind of challenges do you have in your role managing this large team in a very competitive company, running a ton of Kubernetes clusters? [laughs] What's your challenges in your director of engineering role there? SEAN: You know, it's definitely a mix of kind of, like, technical or strategic challenges there, as well as people challenges. On the technical and strategic side, the interesting thing for our team right now is we're in the middle of a very interesting transition. Still, today, the teams at Datadog work in very much a 'You build it, you run it' kind of model, right? So, teams working on user-facing features in addition to, like, you know, designing those features and writing the code for that, they're responsible for deploying that code, offering the services that code runs within, being on call for that, so on and so forth. And until relatively recently, that ownership was very intense to the point where some teams maybe even had their own build and release processes. They were running their own data stores. And, like, that was very valuable for much of our history because that let those teams to be very agile and not have to worry about, like, convincing the entire company to change if they needed to make some kind of change. But as we've grown and as, you know, we've kind of taken on a lot more complexity in our environment from, you know, running across more providers, running across more regions, taking on more of regulatory concerns, to kind of the viability of running everything entirely [inaudible 12:13] for those product teams, it has become much harder. [laughs] You start to see a transition where previously the infrastructure teams were much more acting as subject matter experts and consultants to, now, we're increasingly offering more centralized platforms and offerings that can offload a lot of that kind of complexity and the stuff that isn't the core of what the other product-focused teams are trying to do. And so, as we go through that change, it means internally, a lot of our teams, and how we think about our roles, and how we go about doing our work, changes from, like, a very, you know, traditional reliability type one on one consultation and advising type role to effectively internal product development and internal platform development. So, that's a pretty big both mindset and practice shift. [laughs] So, that's one that we're kind of evolving our way through. And, of course, as what happens to kind of things, like, you still have to do all the old stuff while you're doing the new thing. [laughs] You don't get to just stop and just do the new thing. So, that's been an interesting kind of journey and one that we're always kind of figuring out as we go. That is a lot of kind of what I focus on. You know, people wise, you know, we have an interesting aim of...There's about 40 people in my org. They are spread across EMEA and North America with kind of, let's say, hubs in New York and Paris. So, with that, you know, you have a pretty significant time zone difference and some non-trivial cultural differences. [laughs] And so, you know, making sure that everybody is still able to kind of work efficiently, and communicate effectively, and collaborate effectively, while still working within all those constraints is always an ongoing challenge. [laughs] WILL: Yeah, you mentioned the different cultures, the different types of employees you have, and everyone is not the same. And there's so many cultures, so many...whatever people are going through, you as a leader, how do you navigate through that? Like, how do you constantly challenge yourself to be a better leader, knowing that not everyone can be managed the same way, that there's just so much diversity, probably even in your company among your employees? SEAN: I think a lot of it starts from a place of listening and paying attention to kind of just see where people are happy, where they feel like they have unmet needs. As an example, I moved from that last kind of data store-focused team to this computing cloud team last November. And so, as part of that move, probably for the first two or three months that I was in the role, I wasn't particularly driving much in the way of changes or setting much of a vision beyond what the team already had, just because as the new person coming in, it's usually kind of hard to have a lot of credibility and/or even just have the idea of, like, you know, like you're saying, like, what different people are looking for, or what they need, how they will respond best. I just spend a lot of time just talking to people, getting to know the team, building those relationships, getting to know those people, getting to know those groups. And then, from there, figuring out, you know, both where the kind of the high priority areas where change or investment is needed. But then also figuring out, yeah, kind of based on all that, what's the right way to go about that with the different groups? Because yeah, it's definitely isn't a one size fits all solution. But for me, it's always kind of starting from a place of listening and understanding and using that to develop, I guess, empathy for the people involved and understanding their perspectives and then figuring it out from there. I imagine–I don't know, but I imagine thoughtbot's a pretty distributed company. How do you all kind of think about some of those challenges of just navigating people coming from very different contexts? WILL: Yeah, I was going to ask Victoria that because Victoria is one of the leaders of our team here at thoughtbot. So, Victoria, what are your thoughts on it? VICTORIA: I have also one of the most distributed teams at thoughtbot because we do offer 24/7 support to some clients. And we cover time zones from the Pacific through West Africa. So, we just try to create a lot of opportunities for people to engage, whether it's remotely, especially offering a lot of virtual engagement and social engagement remotely. But then also, offering some in-person, whether it's a company in-person event, or encouraging people to engage with their local community and trying to find conferences, meetups, events that are relevant to us as a business, and a great opportunity for them to go and get some in-person interaction. So, I think then encouraging them to bring those ideas back. And, of course, thoughtbot is known for having just incredible remote async communication happening all the time. It's actually almost a little oppressive to keep up with, to be honest, [laughs] but I love it. There's just a lot of...there's GitHub issues. There's Slack communications. There's, like, open messages. And people are really encouraged to contribute to the conversation and bring up any idea and any problem they're having, and actively add to and modify our company policies and procedures so that we can do the best work with each other and know how to work with each other, and to put out the best products. I think that's key to having that conversation, especially for a company that's as big as Datadog and has so many clients, and has become such a leader in this metrics area. Being able to listen within your company and to your clients is probably going to set you up for success for any, like, tech leadership role [laughs]. I'm curious, what are you most excited about now that you've been in the role for a little while? You've heard from a lot of people within the company. Can you share anything in your direction in the next six months or a year that you're super excited about? SEAN: So, there's usually kind of probably two sides to that question of kind of, like, from a product and business standpoint and from an internal infrastructure standpoint, given that's where my day-to-day focus is. You know, on the product side, one thing that's been definitely interesting to watch in my time at Datadog is we really made the transition from kind of, like, a point solution type product to much more of a platform. For context, when I joined Datadog, I think logs had just gone GA, and APM was in beta, I think. So, we were just starting to figure out, like, how we expand beyond the initial infrastructure metrics product. And, obviously, at this point, now we have a whole, you know, suite of offerings. And so, kind of the opportunities that come with that, as far as both different spaces that we can jump into, and kind of the value that we can provide by having all those different capabilities play together really nicely, is exciting and is cool. Like, you know, one of the things that definitely lit an interesting light bulb for me was talking to some of the folks working on our newer security offerings and them talking about how, obviously, you want to meet, you know, your normal requirements in that space, so being able to provide the visibility that, you know, security teams are looking for there. But also, figuring out how we integrate that information into your developers' everyday experience so that they can have more ownership over that aspect of the systems that they're building and make everybody's job easier and more efficient, right? Instead of having, you know, the nightmare spreadsheet whenever a CVE comes out and having some poor TPM chase half the company to get their libraries updated, you know, being able to make that visible in the product where people are doing their work every day, you know, things like that are always kind of exciting opportunities. On the internal side, we're starting to think about, like, what the next major evolution of our kind of Kubernetes and kind of internal build and release tooling looks like. Today, a lot of kind of how teams interact with our Kubernetes infrastructure is still pretty raw. Like, they're working directly with specific Kubernetes clusters, and they are exposed to all the individual Kubernetes primitives, which is very powerful, but it's also a pretty steep learning curve. [laughs] And for a lot of teams, it ends up meaning that there's lots of, you know, knobs that they have to know what they do. But at the end of the day, like, they're not getting a lot of benefit from that, right? There's more just opportunity for them to accidentally put themselves in a bad place. So, we're starting to figure out, like, higher level abstractions and offerings to simplify how all that for teams look like. So, we're still a bit early days in working through that, but it's exciting to figure out, like, how we can still give teams kind of the flexibility and the power that they need but make those experiences much easier and not have to have them become Kubernetes experts just to deploy a simple process. And, yes, so there's some lots of fun challenges in there. [laughs] Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. WILL: I have a question around your experience. So, you've been a developer around 20 years. What has been your experience over that 20 years or about of the growth in this market? Because I can only imagine what the market was, you know, in the early 2000s versus right now because I still remember...I still have nightmares of dial-up, dial tone tu-tu-tu. No one could call you, stuff like that. So, what has been your experience, just seeing the market grow from where you started? SEAN: Sure, yeah. I think probably a lot of the biggest pieces of it are just seeing the extent to which...I want to say it was Cory Doctorow, but I'm not sure who actually originally coined the idea, but the idea that, you know, software is eating the world, right? Like, eventually, to some degree, every company becomes a software company because software ends up becoming involved in pretty much everything that we as a society do. So, definitely seeing the progression of that, I think, over that time period has been striking, you know, especially when I was working in more consulting contexts and working more in companies and industries where like, you know, the tech isn't really the focus but just how much that, you know, from an engineering standpoint, relatively basic software can fundamentally transform those businesses and those industries has definitely been striking. And then, you know, I think from a more individual perspective, seeing as, you know, our tools become more sophisticated and easier to access, just seeing how much of a mixed bag that has become [laughs]. And just kind of the flavor of, like, you know, as more people have more powerful tools, that can be very enabling and gives voice to many people. But it also means that the ability of an individual or a small group to abuse those tools in ways that we're maybe not fully ready to deal with as a society has been interesting to see how that's played out. VICTORIA: Yeah. I think you bring up some really great points there. And it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes is that, like, the future is here—it's just not evenly distributed. [laughs] And so, in some communities that I go to, everyone knows what Kubernetes is; everyone knows what DevOps is. It's kind of, like, old news. [laughs] And then, some people are still just like, "What?" [laughs]. It's interesting to think about that and think about the implications on your last point about just how dangerous the supply chain is in building software and how some of these abstractions and some of these things that just make it so easy to build applications can also introduce a good amount of risk into your product and into your business, right? So, I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about your perspective on security and DevSecOps and what founders might be thinking about to protect their IP and their client's data in their product. SEAN: That one is interesting and tricky in that, like, we're in a little bit of, like, things are better and worse than they ever have been before [laughs], right? Like, there is a certain level of, I think, baseline knowledge and competency that I think company leaders really just have to have now, part of, like, kind of table stakes, which can definitely be challenging, and that, like, that probably was much less, if even the case, you know, 10-20 years ago in a lot of businesses. As an example, right? Like, obviously, like if it's a tech-focused company, like, that can be a thing. But, like, if you're running a plumbing business with a dozen trucks, let's say, like, 20 years ago, you probably didn't have to think that much about data privacy and data security. But, like, now you're almost certainly using some kind of electronic system to kind of manage all your customer records, and your job scheduling, and all that kind of stuff. So, like, now, that is something that's a primary concern for your business. On the flip side of that, I think there is much better resources, and tools, and practices available out there. I forget the name of the tool now. But I remember recently, I was working with a company on the ISO long string of numbers certifications that you tend to want to do when you're handling certain types of data. There was a tool they were able to work with that basically made it super easy for them to, like, gather all the evidence for that and whatnot, in a way where, like, you know, in the past, you probably just had to hire a compliance person to know what you had to do and how to present that. But now, you could just sign up for a SaaS product. And, like, obviously, it can't just do it for you. Like, it's about making your policies. But it still gave you enough support where if you're, like, bootstrapping a company, like, yeah, you probably don't need to hire a specialist to [inaudible 25:08], which is a huge deal. You know, similarly, a lot of things come much safer by default. When you think about, like, the security on something like an iPhone, or an iPad, or an Android device, like, just out of the box, that's light-years ahead of whatever Windows PC you were going to buy ten years ago. [laughs] And so, that kind of gives you a much better starting place. But some interesting challenges that come with that, right? And that we do now, literally, every person on the planet is walking around with microphones and cameras and all kinds of sensors on them. It's an interesting balance, I think. Similarly, I'm curious how you all think about kind of talking with your clients and your customers about this because I'm sure you all have a non-trivial amount of education to do there. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of it comes in when we have clients who are very early founders, and they don't have a CTO or a technical side of their business, and advising them on exactly what you laid out. Like, here's the baseline. Like, here's where you want to start from. We generally use the CIS controls, this internet for internet security. It puts out a really great tool set, too, for some things you were mentioning earlier. Let's figure out how to report and how to identify all of the things that we're supposed to be doing. It could be overwhelming. It's a lot. Like, in my past role as VP of Operations at Pluribus Digital, I was responsible for helping our team continue to meet our...we had three different ISO long number certifications [laughs]. We did a CMMI as well, which has come up a few times in my career. And they give you about a couple of hundreds of controls that you're supposed to meet. It's in very kind of, like, legalese that you have to understand. And that's a pretty big gap to solve for someone who doesn't have the technical experience to start. Like, what you were saying, too, that it's more dangerous and more safer than it has been before. So, if we make choices for those types of clients in very safe, trusted platforms, then they're going to be set up for success and not have to worry about those details as much. And we kind of go forward with confidence that if they are going to have to come up against compliance requirements or local state regulations, which are also...there's more of those every day, and a lot of liability you can face as a founder, especially if you're dealing with, like, health or financial data, in the state of California, for example. [laughs] It puts you at a really big amount of liability that I don't think we've really seen the impact of how bad it can be and will be coming out in the next couple of years now that that law has passed. But that's kind of the approach that we like to think. It's like, you know, there's a minimum we can do that will mitigate a lot of this risk [laughs], so let's do that. Let's do the basics and start off on the right foot here. SEAN: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, it's definitely something I've come to appreciate, especially doing work in regulated spaces is, when you do reach the point where you do need to have some kind of subject matter expert involved, whether it's somebody in-house or a consultant or an advisor, I've definitely learned that usually, like, the better ones are going to talk to you in terms of, like, what are the risk trade-offs you're making here? And what are the principles that all these detailed controls or guidelines are looking to get at? As opposed to just, like, walking you through the box-checking exercise. In my experience, a really good lawyer or somebody who will talk to you about risk versus just saying whether or not you can do something. [laughs] It has a very similar feeling in my experience. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's a lot about risk. And someone's got to be able to make those trade-off decisions, and it can be really tough, but it's doable. And I think it shouldn't scare people away. And there's lots of people, lots of ways to do it also, which is exciting. So, I think it's a good space to be in and to see it growing and pay attention to. [laughs] It's fun for me to be in a different place where we're given the opportunity to kind of educate or bring people along in a security journey versus having it be a top-down executive-level decision that we need to meet this particular security standard, and that's the way it's going to be. [laughs] Yeah, so that I appreciate. Is there anything that really surprised you in your conversations with Datadog or with other companies around these types of services for, like, platform engineering and observability? Is there anything that surprised you in the discovery process with potential clients for your products? SEAN: I think one of the biggest surprises, or maybe not a surprise but an interesting thing is, to what extent, you know, for us, I don't know if this is still the case, but I think in many places, like, we're probably more often competing against nothing than a competing product. And by that, I mean, especially as you look at some of our more sophisticated products like APM, or profiling, it's not so much that somebody has an existing tool that we're looking to replace; it's much more than this is just not a thing they do today. [laughs] And so, that leads to a very interestingly different conversation that I think, you know, relates to some of what we were saying with security where, you know, I think a non-trivial part of what our sales and technical enablement folks do is effectively education for our customers and potential customers of why they might want to use tools like this, and what kind of value they could get from them. The other one that's been interesting is to see how different customers' attitudes around tools like this have evolved as they've gone through their own migration to the cloud journeys, right? We definitely have a lot of customers that, I think, you know, 5, 10 years ago, when they were running entirely on-prem, using a SaaS product would have been a complete non-starter. But as they move into the cloud, both as they kind of generally get more comfortable with the idea of delegating some of these responsibilities, as well as they start to understand kind of, like, the complexity of the tooling required as their environment gets more complex, the value of a dedicated product like something like Datadog as opposed to, you know, what you kind of get out of the box with the cloud providers or what you might kind of build on your own has definitely been interesting. [laughs] VICTORIA: Is there a common point that you find companies get to where they're like, all right, now, I really need something? Can you say a little bit more about, like, what might be going on in the organization at that time? SEAN: You know, I think there could be a few different paths that companies take to it. Some of it, I think, can come from a place of...I think, especially for kind of larger enterprise customers making a transition like that, they tend to be taking a more holistic look at kind of their distinct practices and seeing what they want to change as they move into the cloud. And often, kind of finding an observability vendor is just kind of, like, part of the checklist there. [laughs] Not to dismiss it, but just, like, that seems to be certainly one path into it. I think for smaller customers, or maybe customers that are more, say, cloud-native, I think it can generally be a mix of either hitting a point where they're kind of done with the overhead of trying to maintain their own infrastructure of, like, trying to run their own ELK stack and, like, build all the tooling on top of that, and keeping that up and running, and the costs associated with that. Or, it's potentially seeing the sophistication of tooling that, like, a dedicated provider can afford to invest that realistically, you're never going to invest in on your own, right? Like, stuff like live profiling is deeply non-trivial to implement. [laughs] I think especially once people get some experience with a product like Datadog, they start thinking about, like, okay, how much value are we actually getting out of doing this on our own versus using a more off-the-shelf product? I don't know if we've been doing it post-COVID. But I remember pre-COVID...so Datadog has a huge presence at re:Invent and the other similar major cloud provider things. And I remember for a few years at re:Invent, you know, we obviously had, like, the giant 60x60 booth in the main expo floor, where we were giving demos and whatnot. But they also would have...AWS would do this, like, I think they call it the interactive hall where companies could have, like, more hands-on booths, and you had, like, a whole spectrum of stuff. And there were, like, some companies just had, like, random, like, RC car setups or Lego tables, just stuff like that. But we actually did a setup where there was a booth of, I think, like, six stations. People would step up, and they would race each other to solve a kind of faux incident using Datadog. The person who would solve it first would win a switch. I think we gave away a huge number of switches as part of that, which at first I was like, wow, that seems expensive. [laughs] But then later, you know, I was mostly working the main booth at that re:Invent. So by the, like, Wednesday and Thursday of re:Invent, I'd have people walking up to the main booth being like, "Hey, so I did the thing over at the Aria. And now I installed Datadog in prod last night, and I have questions." I was like, oh, okay. [laughs] So, I think just, like, the power of, like, getting that hands-on time, and using some of the tools, and understanding the difference there is what kind of gets a lot of people to kind of change their mind there. [laughs] VICTORIA: You'd get me with a switch right now. I kind of want one, but I don't want to buy one. SEAN: [laughs] WILL: Same. [laughs] VICTORIA: Because I know it'll take up all my time. SEAN: Uh-huh. That's fair. [laughs] VICTORIA: But I will try to win one at a conference for sure. I think that's true. And it makes sense that because your product is often going with clients that don't have these practices yet, that as soon as you give them exposure to it, you see what you can do with it, that becomes a very powerful selling tool. Like, this is the value of the product, right? [laughs] SEAN: Yeah, there is also something we see, and I think most of our kind of peers in the industry see is, very often, people come in initially looking for and using a single product, like, you know, infrastructure, metrics, or logs. And then, as they see that and see where that touches other parts of the product, their usage kind of grows and expands over time. I would obviously defer to our earnings calls for exact numbers. But generally speaking, more or less kind of half of our new business is usually expanded usage from existing customers as opposed to new customers coming in. So, I think there's also a lot of just kind of organic discovery and building of trust over time that happens there, which is interesting. VICTORIA: One of my favorite points to make, which is that SRE sounds very technical and, like, this really extreme thing. But to make it sound a little more easier, is that it is how you validate that the user experience is what you expect it to be. [laughs] I wonder if you have any other thoughts you want to add to that, just about, like, SRE and user experience and how that all connects for real business value. SEAN: I think a lot of places where, you know, we've both seen internally ourselves and with customers is, you know; obviously, different companies operate in different models and whatnot. Where people have seen success is where, you know, people with formal SRE titles or team names can kind of be coming in as just kind of another perspective on the various kind of things that teams are trying to drive towards. The places reliability is successfully integrated is when they can kind of make that connection that you were talking about. It's, like, obviously, everybody should go take their vitamins, but, like, what actual value is coming from this, right? Nobody wants to have outages, but, like, to do the work to invest in reliability, often, like, it can be hard to say, like, okay, what's the actual difference between before and after? Having people who can help draw those connections and help weigh those trade-offs, I think, can definitely be super helpful. But it is generally much more effective, I think, in my experience, when it does come from that perspective of, like, what value are we providing? What are we trading off as part of this? As opposed to just, well, you should do this because it's the right thing to do, kind of a moralistic perspective. [laughs] But, I don't know, how do you all kind of end up having that conversation with your customers and clients? VICTORIA: That's exactly it. That's the same. It's starting that conversation about, like, well, what happens when this experience fails, which designers don't necessarily think about? What's, like, the most important paths that you want a user to take through your application that we want to make sure works? And when you tie it all back there, I think then when the developers are understanding how to create those metrics and how to understand user behavior, that's when it becomes really powerful so that they're getting the feedback they need to do the right code, and to make the right changes. Versus just going purely on interviews [laughs] and not necessarily, like, understanding behavior within the app. I think that starts to make it clear. SEAN: Part of that, I think that's been an interesting experience for us is also just some of the conversation there around, like, almost the flip side of, when are you investing potentially too much in that, right? Because, like, especially after a certain point, the cost of additional gains grows exponentially, right? Each one of those nines gets more and more expensive. [laughs] And so, having the conversation of, like, do you actually need that level of reliability, or, like, is that...just like what you're saying. Like, you know, kind of giving some of that context and that pressure of, like, yeah, we can do that, but, like, this is what it's going to cost. Is that what you want to be spending your money on? Kind of things can also be an interesting part of that conversation. VICTORIA: That's a really good point that, you know, you can set goals that are too high [laughs] and not necessary. So, it does take a lot of just understanding about your data and your users to know what are acceptable levels of error. I think the other thing that you can think about, too, like, what could happen, and we've seen it happen with some startups, is that, like, something within the app is deeply broken, but you don't know. And you just think that you're not having user engagement, or that users are signing off, or, like, you know, not opening the app after the first day. So, if you don't have any way to really actively monitor it and you're not spending money on an active development team, you can have some method to just be confident that the app is working and to make your life less miserable [laughs] when you have a smaller team supporting, especially if you're trying to really minimize your overhead for running an application. SEAN: Yep. It's surprisingly hard to know when things are broken sometimes. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yes, and then extremely painful when you find out later [laughs] because that's when it's become a real problem, yeah. I wonder, are there any other questions you have for me or for Will? SEAN: How big of an organization is thoughtbot at this time? VICTORIA: Close to 75 people? We're, yeah, between the Americas and the [inaudible 38:31] region. So, that's where we're at right now, yeah. SEAN: Nice. At that size, like, and I guess it sounds like you're pretty heavily distributed, so maybe some of this doesn't happen as much, but, like, one of the things I definitely remember...so, when I joined Datadog, it was probably about 500 people. And I think we're just under 5,000 now. There are definitely some points where there were surprisingly, like, physical aspects to where it became a problem of just, like, where certain teams didn't fit into a room anymore. [laughs] Like, I had surprise in the changes in that, like, dynamic. I'm curious if you've all kind of run into any kind of, I don't know, similar interesting thresholds or changes as you've kind of grown and evolved. WILL: I will say this, we're about 100, I think, Victoria. VICTORIA: Oh, okay, we're 100 people. I think, you know, I've only been at thoughtbot for just over a year now. And my understanding of the history is that when we were growing before COVID, there's always been a very intentionality about growth. And there was never a goal to get to a huge size or to really grow beyond just, like, a steady, profitable growth. [laughs] So, when we were growing in person, there were new offices being stood up. So, we, you know, maybe started out of New York and Boston and grew to London. And then, there was Texas, and I think a few other ones that started. Then with COVID, the decision was made to go fully remote, and I think that's opened up a lot of opportunities for us. And from my understanding in the previous and the past, is that there's a big shift to be fully remote. It's been challenging, where I think a lot of people miss some of the in-person days, and I'm sure it's definitely lonely working remote all day by yourself. So, you have to really proactively find opportunities to see other people and to engage remotely. But I think also, we hire people from so many different places and so much different talent, and then, also, you know, better informs our products and creates a different, you know, energy within the company that I think is really fun and really exciting for us now. WILL: Yeah, I would agree with that because I think the team that I'm on has about 26 people on the Lift Off team. And we're constantly thinking of new ways to get everyone involved. But as a developer, me myself being remote, I love talking to people. So, I try to be proactive and, like, connect with the people I'm working with and say, "Hey, how can I help you with this?" Let's jump in this room and just work together, chat together, and stuff like that, so... And it has opened the door because the current project that I'm on, I would never have had an opportunity to be on. I think it's based in Utah, and I'm in South Florida. So, there's just no way if we weren't remote that I'd been a part of it. So... SEAN: Nice. And I can definitely appreciate that. I remember when we first started COVID lockdown; I think, at that point, Datadog was probably about...Datadog engineering was probably about 30% remote, so certainly a significant remote contingent but mixed. But my teams were pretty remote-heavy. So, in some ways, not a lot changed, right? Like, I think more people on my team were, like, who are all these other people in my house now instead of [laughs], I mean, just transition from being in an office to working from home. But I do remember maybe, like, about six months in, starting to feel, yeah, some of the loneliness and the separation of just, like, not being able to do, like, quarterly team meetups or stuff like that. So, it's definitely been an interesting transition. For context, at this point, we kind of have a hybrid setup. So, we still have a significant kind of full-time remote contingent, and then four people who are in office locations, people joining for about three days a week in office. So, it's definitely an interesting transition and an interesting new world. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious how you find the tech scene in Denver versus New York or if you're engaging in the community in the same way since you moved. SEAN: There definitely is some weirdness since COVID started [laughs] broadly [inaudible 42:21]. So, I moved here in 2020. But I'd been coming out here a lot before that. I helped to build an office here with Bitly. So, I was probably coming out once a quarter for a bunch of years. So, one parallel that is finally similar is, like, in both places, it is a small world. It doesn't take that long for you to be in that community, in either of those communities and start running into the same people in different places. So, that's always been [inaudible 42:42] and especially in New York. New York is a city of what? 8, 9 million people? But once you're working in New York tech for a few years and you go into some meetups, you start running into the same people, and you have one or two degrees [inaudible 42:52] to a lot of people, surprisingly quickly. [laughs] So, that's similar. But Denver probably is interesting in that it's definitely transplant-heavy. I think Denver tends to check the box for, like, it was part of why Bitly opened an office here and, to a degree, Datadog as well. I think of like, you know, if you're trying to recruit people and you previously were mostly recruiting in, like, New York or Silicon Valley; if you're based in New York, and you're trying to recruit somebody from Silicon Valley, and part of why they're looking for a new gig is they're burned out on Silicon Valley, asking them to move to New York probably isn't all that attractive. [laughs] But Denver is different enough in that in terms of kind of being a smaller city, easier access to nature, a bunch of that kind of stuff, that a lot of times we were able to attract talent that was a much more appealing prospect. [laughs] You'll see an interesting mix of industries here. One of the bigger things here is there's a very large government and DOD presence here. I remember I went to DevOps Days Rockies, I think, a few years ago. There was a Birds of a Feather session on trying to apply DevOps principles in air-gapped networks. That was a very interesting conversation. [laughs] VICTORIA: That's interesting. I would not have thought Colorado would be a big hub for federal technology. But there you go, it's everywhere. WILL: Yeah. SEAN: Denver metro, I think, is actually the largest presence of federal offices outside of the D.C. metro. VICTORIA: That's interesting. Yeah, I'm used to trying to recruit people into D.C., and so, it's definitely not the good weather, [laughs], not a good argument in my favor. So, I just wanted to give you a final chance. Anything else you'd like to promote, Sean? SEAN: Generally, not super active on social things these days, but you can find whatever I have done at seanoc.com, S-E–A-N-O-C.com for the spelling. And otherwise, if you're interested in some engineering content and hearing about some of those kind of bleeding edge challenges that I was mentioning before, I would definitely check out the Datadog engineering blog. There's lots of kind of really interesting content there on both, you know, things we've learned from incidents and interesting projects that we're working on. There's all kinds of fun stuff there. VICTORIA: That makes me think I should have asked you more questions, Sean. [laughs] No, I think it was great. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'll definitely check all that stuff out. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Sean O'Connor.

Kendall Miller is the Co-Founder and COO of CTO Lunches, a network of engineering leaders to get trusted advice and connections. The first half of the conversation with host Victoria Guido and special guest host, Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot revolves around the use, adoption, and growth of Kubernetes within the technology industry. The discussion explores Kubernetes' history, influence, and its comparison with other platforms like Heroku and WordPress, emphasizing its adaptability and potential. The second half focuses on more practical aspects of Kubernetes, including its adoption and scalability. It centers on the appropriateness of adopting Kubernetes for different projects and how it can future-proof infrastructure. The importance of translating technical language into business speak is emphasized to influence executives and others in the decision-making process and Kendall also discuss communication and empathy in tech, particularly the skill of framing questions and understanding others' emotional states. __ CTO Lunches (http://ctolunches.com/) Follow CTO Lunches on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/ctolunches/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/cto_lunches). Follow Kendall Miller on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kendallamiller/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Kendall Miller, Co-Founder and COO of CTO Lunches, a network of engineering leaders to get trusted advice and connections. Kendall, thank you for joining me. KENDALL: Thanks for having me. I'm excited. VICTORIA: And today, we have a special guest host, Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Joe, thank you for joining us. JOE: Hello there. Thank you for having me. KENDALL: Hi, Joe. Thanks for being here. It's exciting. VICTORIA: Yes. It's so exciting. I think this is going to be a great episode. So, Kendall, I met you at a San Diego CTO lunch recently, and I know that's not the only thing that you do. So, you're also an advisor, a board member, and CXO. So, maybe tell us a little bit more about your background. KENDALL: Gosh, my background is complicated. I've been involved in tech for a very long time. In college, I worked for a company that started Twitter about five years too soon, and then worked in the nonprofit space in China for ten years, then came back, got back involved in tech. Today, I'm usually the business guy. So, when technical founders start technical products and want help turning them into successful technical businesses, that's when they call me. So, I have the technical background. I have never been paid to write code, which is probably a good thing. But I can hang in the technical conversations for the most part, but I'm much more interested in the business side and the people leadership side of business. So that tends to be where I play. Every organization hires me to do something different. VICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I'm just curious about the CTO Lunches. Just tell me a little bit more about that. And what's the idea behind it that led you to co-found it? KENDALL: CTO Lunches has actually been around for about eight years. And I didn't start the initial incarnation of it. It was two people that got us started, and I was trying to hire one of them; one thing led to another. Actually, originally, they did not want me to join. I think, at the time, my title was COO at a company that I was working with. About six months later, I took over engineering as VP of engineering, and then they're like, you can join the group now. We're less strict about that [laughs] now. Although it is highly focused on senior engineering leaders, it's not exclusively CTOs. But the group's been in place for a very long time, just intended as a place to network, have conversation with people who are in that senior-most technical position at technical organization. So, the CTO role is a lonely role. CTOs get fired all the time. There's not a technical person at the company that doesn't think they can do the job better than them. So, the CTO is always getting feedback. You're doing this wrong. The trade-offs you're making are wrong. This isn't going where it should be going. We should automate that. Why haven't we automated that? We should switch to this other tool. I've used it before; it's 100 times better. Joe, let me know if I'm getting any of this wrong. But that's the experience that I've had. Having a place where people can get together and, you know, half the time just complain to each other, hey, this is hard, is really why the networking group exists. So, it's a listserv. And there are local lunches that started in Boulder, Colorado. It's gotten pretty global. About a year ago, a little over a year ago, I was talking with one of the people who'd gotten it started. I've been involved in the Denver chapter for most of those eight years. And I was suggesting to him that he change a few things about it, to monetize it so that he could invest in it further. And he came back a few months later and said, "I want to take your advice and do this, but I want you to come do it with me." So, we founded the company officially...I think in December is when paperwork went into place. And we started investing in it a little bit more heavily. I was living in Europe last year, so we went and put on lunches in Paris, and Lisbon, and London, and, gosh, all over the place. I'm sure I'm missing some, Amsterdam. But there's been chapters all over the U.S. and a couple of other parts of the world for a long time. VICTORIA: That reflects my experience attending a CTO lunch. It's just very casual, like, just get together and eat food and talk about what you've worked on recently, issues you're having, just get ideas and make some friends. So, I really appreciated the group, and I'm going to personally plug the San Diego Chapter has picked up again. And we're meeting next Friday down in Del Mar. And we're going to be meeting on the last Friday of every month through October. So, I'm super excited to be a part of the group. And Joe, yeah, I'm curious about your perspective. As a CTO with thoughtbot, just what are your thoughts about that kind of thing? KENDALL: Yeah. How right am I about how lonely you are, Joe? JOE: [laughs] You know, I've been lonelier since we went remote. I used to work in the office, and I was a CTO, but also, I had lunch with people, which was nice. So, I'm lonelier. But yeah, I think everybody needs a group like that, like, senior developer therapy just to talk about your woes together, drown your sorrows. KENDALL: Well, I think years ago, I heard that CTOs are the most fired C-level executive. JOE: You're making me nervous now. KENDALL: [laughs] You've been there a long time, Joe. I know you've been there a long time. If you haven't been fired yet, you probably got a little while longer in you. This will be really awkward if it's published and you've already been fired. VICTORIA: We can always edit that out afterwards. [laughter] KENDALL: Yeah, no, I think it is a particularly lonely position. And, again, I think a lot of it is the average engineer in a technical company doesn't look at the COO or the CFO or even the CEO and think I could do that. But they're all looking at the CTO and thinking, what does that person do that I can't do? It's ridiculous because most of them would make terrible CTOs because it does require some of the business sense. Or, you know, right out of the gate, they might make terrible CTOs. It actually is quite a skill to be the most technical person and speak the business language. I mean, am I right about that, Joe? Like, was that hard for you to learn? JOE: Yeah, I definitely think...so, my background is also technical. I have a background in consulting. So, I always did a lot of metaprogramming, if you will. But making that transition to thinking about organizations that way, thinking about how all the other pieces play into it, was a pretty big step for me, even before I became a CTO as a consultant. KENDALL: Well, because you can't just chase the newest, hottest technology. You have to make business trade-offs. And not everything can be resume-driven development, right? Even if that technology over there is newer or hotter, it doesn't mean you have a business model that supports it. And it doesn't mean that migrating to it can be done, right? JOE: Yeah. I mean, even beyond choosing technologies, just choosing where to invest in your software stack, like, what needs to be reworked, what doesn't, and trying to explain those trade-offs, I think, is a rare skill. Being able to explain why something would be harder than something else when you're working with the leadership to prioritize a backlog it's a puzzle. KENDALL: Well, and I think when I'm in an executive conversation, and the CTO says, "Here's the thing that I think is the best decision technically, and I think it's the wrong decision for the business because of X, Y, or Z," I'm always super impressed, right? Like, this is the right technical solution for what we want. However, we shouldn't pursue that for business reasons right now. Maybe we can in six months, but right now, we need to prioritize this other thing. I don't know, that's always when I feel like, oh, this person knows what they're doing. JOE: There's nothing more dangerous to software than a bored developer. [laughs] One nice thing about being a consultant is that I don't have to invent problems to solve with technology at my company because sooner or later, I'll run across a company that has those problems, and I'll get to use that technology. But I think a lot of people are mostly happy...they might be happy in their role. They might be happy with our team. But they're very interested in whatever is hot right now, like machine learning, AI. And so, suddenly, that surreptitiously makes its way into the tech stack. And then, years later, it's somebody's problem to maintain. KENDALL: [laughs] Well, I have a specific memory of a firm in New York City that was, you know, this is relevant to y'all as thoughtbot is that, you know, at least historically, it was, to me, the premier Ruby on Rails consulting shop. I think that's still largely y'alls focus. Am I right about that? JOE: We still do a ton of Rails, yeah. KENDALL: Okay. Well, so this organization was all Ruby on Rails. It was a big organization. They had a very large customer base. And they hired a new CTO who came in, told everybody in the company they were stupid, laid off 70% of the engineering organization, and told the CEO he was going to completely rewrite the product from scratch in .NET, and he could do it in three weeks. And I'm pretty sure the business went under about three months later [laughs] because that was just so outrageously nuts to me. JOE: It's too bad he laid everybody off beforehand. I've been in that situation where somebody tells me, "I'm going to rewrite this. It'll be ready in three weeks." And I could fight with them and try and convince them they're wrong. But I feel like somebody who's approaching that with that attitude they're missing all of the nuance and context that would make it possible to explain to them why it's not going to work. And so, it's easier to just say, "You know, take the three weeks. I'll talk to you in three weeks." But if you've already laid off your development team, that's hard [laughs] to recover from. KENDALL: That's exactly right. VICTORIA: There's got to be a name for that kind of CTO who just wants to come in and blow everything up [laughs]. Yeah, so you spend a lot of time talking to different CTOs and doing this social networking aspect. I'm wondering if there's, like, patterns that you see. You've mentioned already one about just, like, the most often getting fired. [laughs] But what are the patterns you see, like, in challenges, and then what makes someone successful in that CTO role? KENDALL: Well, oh gosh, I have so many thoughts about this. First of all, I run into a couple of different categories of CTOs. There's a lot of people who come to CTO Lunches who are small company CTOs. I mean, it makes sense that there's a lot more small company CTOs than there are big company CTOs. But the small company CTO who maybe it's their first gig in the role or they're a serial CTO. There's the fractional CTOs that come that are doing it across several different organizations at the same time, and then there's the big company CTO who shows up. And honestly, all of their problems are very different. The thing that they have in common is even at a very large organization, in that position, they can make a decision that causes the company to go under. So, there is a significant amount of volatility in the amount of power that they wield. So, what's interesting about that is not everybody understands that. And so, first of all, there's the kind of CTO that just doesn't get that, and that doesn't matter if they're fractional, or a small company CTO, or a big company CTO. If they don't understand that, they're going to cause significant problems, right? Like the person I just mentioned who said, "I can just re-platform this in three weeks in .NET." There's that. I mean, I think, as with any senior leadership position, the comfort with volatility, the ability to know what to communicate down versus across and versus up, and then the ability to speak the business language. For everybody, the CFO's job is to communicate the financial needs alongside of the business leads, right? If the CFO's sole goal is to cut costs or make sure we're running as lean as possible, they're a bad CFO. But they're not as good of a CFO as the CFO who can say, "Hey, we're underspending right here. And I can look at the numbers and know we should invest more there. How can we invest more there and invest it well?" And it's the same thing for a technology executive to be able to look at the business context and communicate it back. And there are so many CTOs that I've worked with who they're the most technical person in the room, and they know it. And as a result, they're just a jerk to everyone around them, like, everything you did here was wrong. You know, that's where they fail. And so, if they can communicate the business needs, navigate the volatility, and support a team that's going to make decisions that aren't always the same decision they're going to make, they're going to be successful. Honestly, there's very, very few CTOs that I've met like that. People who are excited to meet you at work, excited to see you succeed, excited to see that you went and built a thing is great. I mean, the reason I was VP of engineering is the CTO that I was working with at the time...it's a terrible story. There was an engineer who had seen something that we were doing on repeat all the time and, in his spare time, spent about 40 hours outside of work, not during work hours, automating this task that we were doing regularly. And it was related to standing up a whole bunch of things in our standard infrastructure. He brings it to the CTO and says, "Look what I built." And the CTO, instead of saying, "Hey, this is incredible. Thank you. This is going to save us a bunch of time. Let's iterate on it. Here's some things I'd like to tweak. Can we bring it in this direction? Can we..." you know, whatever, said, "Why is this in Python? It should be in Ansible," something like that. I can't remember. And the engineer literally burst into tears. [laughs] JOE: Oh my God. KENDALL: [laughs] Well, I mean, yeah, it was like; literally, that's why the CTO stopped managing people that day. There's a lot of examples that I have like that. Joe, I appreciate that your response is, "Oh my God." Because I think there's a lot of people who'd be like, wait, what was wrong with that? Shouldn't it have been in Ansible? JOE: [laughs] Yeah, I've seen CTOs come into primarily two groups. One is the CTO who just tells, you know, like, they make the decisions, and they tell everybody what to do. They obviously don't have all of the information because you can't be in every room all the time. And the other is the CTO, who just wants to be one of the team members and doesn't make any decisions and tries to get people to make decisions collectively on their own without any particular guidance or structure. And finding that middle spot of, like, not just saying, "Hey, everything's in Ansible," allowing for the creativity and initiative, but also coalescing the group into a single direction, I think, is what makes a good CTO. KENDALL: Well, yeah, because the CTO does have to say no, sometimes, right? Like, the best product, people say, "No." Good CTOs say, "No." There is some amount of, hey, I need you to come to me with trade-offs about this. Why are you going to make that decision? And I'm sorry, you still didn't convince me, right? Like, I mean, those are appropriate things to say. But yeah, I'm with you on that. You said they fall into two categories. But you really mean the third and that middle ground. Is it easy for you to walk that middle ground, Joe? JOE: I wouldn't say it's easy. [laughs] KENDALL: Yeah. Well, I'm always nervous to say something. I'm doing well because I know there's a report out there that can point at every time I failed at it, right? So... MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: Yeah, what I'm getting from what you're saying, too, is this communication ability and not just, like, to communicate clearly but with a high level of empathy. So, if you say like, "Well, why is it in Python and not Ansible?" is different than being like, "What makes Python the best solution here?" Like, it's a different way to frame the question that could put someone on the defensive that just really requires, like, a high level of emotional intelligence. And also, if they've just worked, like, an 80-hour week, [laughs] I probably would maybe choose a different time to bring those questions up and notice that they have been burning the candle at both ends and prioritize getting them some rest. So, speaking of, like, communication and getting prioritization for [inaudible 15:34], especially on, like, infrastructure teams, maybe we could talk a little bit about Kubernetes, like, when that comes up as an appropriate solution, and how you talk about it with the business. KENDALL: My background with Kubernetes is long because a company that I still work with, Fairwinds, used to be called ReactiveOps, has been in the Kubernetes space for a very long time. I think we were one of the very first companies working with Kubernetes. It was coming up that people were running into the limits of something like Heroku, right? And I think it's Kelsey Hightower who said every company wants a PaaS. They just want the Paas that they built themselves. And that's really accurate. And I think Kubernetes isn't quite a framework for building your own PaaS or isn't quite a foundation where I think of a foundation for a house. Instead, it's more like rebar and cement and somebody saying, "Good luck, buddy." You know, you still have to know how to put the rebar and cement together to even make the foundation, but it is the building blocks that help get you to a custom-built PaaS. And it's become something that a lot of people have landed on as, you know, the broadly accepted way to build cloud-native infrastructure. The reason I've been in the Kubernetes space and the space that I see Kubernetes still filling is we need to standardize on something. We can choose a cloud provider's PaaS. We can choose a third-party PaaS, or we can standardize on something like Kubernetes. And even though we're not going to migrate from AWS to Azure, the flexibility that Kubernetes gives us as a broadly adopted pattern is going to give us some ability to be future-proofed in our infrastructure in a way that previous stacks were not, you know, it was Puppet, and it was Ansible. And it was SaltStack. And it was all Terraform all the time. I'm not saying those things don't exist anymore. I'm saying Kubernetes kind of has won that battle. Joe, since you're here and I know y'all are doing some Kubernetes work now at thoughtbot, I'm curious if you agree with that characterization. JOE: Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's the center for people to coalesce around. Like, for an effort in the industry to move forward, there needs to be some common language, some common ground. And I think Kubernetes struck the right balance of being abstract. So, you can use it in different environments but still making some decisions, so you don't have to make them all. And so, like, all of the things you had to do with containers like figuring out what your data solution is going to be, what your networking solution is going to be, Kubernetes didn't even really make those decisions. [laughs] They just made a platform where those decisions can be made in a common way. And that allowed the community and the ecosystem to grow. KENDALL: I mean, I think of it a lot like WordPress; you know, WordPress is hated by many. When WordPress came out, it was hot, right? And it was PHP, which everybody was super excited about at the time. Kubernetes is going to reach a point where it's as long in the tooth and terrible as people think WordPress is, but it has become the standard. And the advantage of the standard is you can use the not standard. You can go build a website in Jekyll instead of WordPress, and there's going to be some things that are nicer about Jekyll. But because WordPress is so broadly adopted, there's a plugin for everything. And I think that's where Kubernetes sits is because it's become so widely adopted everybody's building for it. Everybody's adapting for it. If you run into a problem, you're going to find somebody else out there who has that problem. In fact, I think of one organization that I know that was on HashiCorp's Nomad. And they said, "Actually, we think Nomad has better technology through and through. But we think we're the only company at this size and scale using Nomad. And so, when we run into a problem, we can't Google for it. There's no such thing as a plugin that exists to solve this. Nobody has ever run into this before on Nomad. But there's 100 companies dealing with the same problem in Kubernetes, and there's ten solutions." And I think that's the power that it brings. VICTORIA: So, it's not just a trend that CTOs are moving towards, you think. KENDALL: I mean, I think it's already won the battle and the hockey stick of adoption. We're still right at the very bottom of that tick-up because it takes people a long time to adapt new technology like this, especially in their infrastructure. It's a big migration, to move. So, I don't think it's the widely adopted infrastructure technology even yet. I think a lot of the biggest organizations are still running on things that predate Kubernetes. But I think it has won the battle, and it is winning the battle and is going to be the thing going forward, so yeah. JOE: I think it also has a lot of room to grow still. Like, there are other technologies that I used previously, like Docker, and they were a big step up from some of the things I was doing at the time. But you quickly hit the ceiling, or it was, like, I don't know where to go with this next. I don't know what else is going to happen. Whereas with Kubernetes, there are so many directions it can go in. Like, the serverless Kubernetes offerings that are starting to pop up are extremely interesting, where, you know, you don't actually maintain a cluster or anything. You just deploy things to this ethereal cluster that always exists. And so, that sort of combination of platform as a service, function as a service, Kubernetes, as that evolves, I think there are a lot of exciting things that have yet to come in the Kubernetes space. KENDALL: Well, so say more about that, Joe, because I've been going to KubeCon for a very long time, maybe...I don't know if it's 2016 or so when I first went. And it felt for a number of years...maybe those first four-ish years it was always the people at KubeCon were the, like, big dreamers and thinkers and, like, we're here to change the future of cloud infrastructure. And this is going places, and we're excited to be here and be a part of it. And here's what I'm going to do that changes the next thing. And I feel like now if I go to KubeCon, it's a lot of people from, you know, IBM and some big bank that are, like, deep sigh, well, I have to adopt Kubernetes. I need to know what the vendors are. What do you guys do, and how does this work? Can you please teach it to me? Because I'm being told by my boss, I have to do it. I don't see that excitement around Kubernetes anymore. The excitement I see is all around further up the stack, you know, things like Wasm, WebAssembly, or eBPF, the networking things and tracing things that are possible. Maybe that's further down the stack. I guess it depends on how you think about it, but different part of the stack. So, I'm curious, touching on the serverless components of Kubernetes; sure, I get that. And I do think, increasingly, the PaaSs of the future are all going to be Kubernetes-based, whether that's exposed or not. But where are the places that you think it's still going to go? Because I feel like it's already gotten boring, maybe in a positive way. But I don't see the excitement around it like I saw a few years back. And I'm curious what else you think is going to happen. JOE: Yeah, I mean, I don't think I disagree. I think Kubernetes itself, the core concept, is, like, it's still changing. But you're right that the excitement about Kubernetes existing has gone down because it's been there for a while. But I feel like the ecosystem is still growing pretty rapidly. Like, the things you mentioned, like Wasm and Istio, and all the tools in that ecosystem that continue to grow, is where I think the interesting things will happen. Like, it's created this new lower-level layer of abstraction that makes it possible to build concepts and technology that could not have existed before. KENDALL: Yeah, well, and I'm, you know, talking to people who are working really hard at making short-run ephemeral workloads work better on things like GPUs for the sake of AI, right? Like, I mean, there is some really interesting things happening, and people are doing this in Kubernetes. So, I get that. I agree with that. It is interesting that Kubernetes has become sort of the stable thing, and now it's about who can build the interesting add-ons. It's almost like, okay, we've built Half-Life. What is Counter-Strike going to look like? You know. That's a terrible (I'm aging myself.) example. But still. VICTORIA: I think it's interesting, I mean, to look at the size of the market for platform engineering right now. In 2022, was 4.8 billion, and it's estimated to be in 10 years $41 billion. So, there is this emerging trend of different platform engineering products, different abstractions on top of Kubernetes. And I wonder what advice you would have for a technical founder who's looking to build and solve some of these interesting issues in Kubernetes and create a business around it. KENDALL: Well, okay, let me clarify that question. Are you thinking, I'm a startup, and I need to build my infrastructure, and I'm going to choose Kubernetes. What advice do I need? Or are you thinking, I am founder, and I want to go build on the Kubernetes ecosystem. What advice do you have? VICTORIA: Now I want to know the answer to both. But my question was the second one to start. KENDALL: One of the things that is hard about the Kubernetes ecosystem is there's not a ton of companies that have made a whole bunch of money in Kubernetes because, as I said, I still think we're actually really early in the adoption curve. The kinds of companies that have adopted Kubernetes are the kinds of companies that don't spend lots and lots of money on an infrastructure. [laughs] They're the kinds of companies that are fast-moving, early adopters, or, you know, those first followers, and so they're under $100 million companies for the most part. Where the JP Morgans and Chase are running Kubernetes somewhere in their stack, but they haven't adopted it across the stack to need the biggest, best tools about it. So, the first piece of advice that I'd give is, be a little wary. It's still very early to the market. Maybe now is the time to build the thing. When ReactiveOps pivoted to Kubernetes, I think it was six months of having conversations with companies who were just, like, so excited about it, and this is definitely what we want to do. But nobody was doing it yet. You know, it was, we have, like, six solid months of just excitement and nobody actually pulling the trigger. And, you know, we were a little too early to that market. And that was just the people adopting it. So, I think there is some nervousness that cloud-native solutions the only people who are really making money in Kubernetes are named Amazon, Google, and Microsoft because it's the cloud providers that are making a ton off of it. Now, there's Rancher. There is StackPointCloud. There's a few others that have had big exits in this space. But I don't think it's actually as big of a booming economy as a lot of people think, in part because EKS is an incredibly amazing product. Like, eight years ago, the thing people paid us the most to do at ReactiveOps was just stand up Kubernetes because it was so stinking hard to just get it up and working. And now you click some buttons. Anybody can go do that. So, it's changed a lot, right? And I think be wary when you're entering that ecosystem. And then, my advice to the founder that's not building on the ecosystem but just looking to adopt a technology that's going to be a future-proofed infrastructure is just adopt one of the cloud-native platforms. And there are a whole bunch of sort of default best-in-class add-ons out there that you need to throw in. Don't adopt too many because then you have to maintain them forever. That's the easiest way to get started. You can figure out all the rest of it later. But if you go use EKS, or GKE, AKS, you can get started pretty easily and build something that is going to be future-proofed. I don't know, Joe; I'm curious if you disagree with any of that. JOE: Well, I think it's interesting to think about who's making money in Kubernetes. Like, I think there might not be as many companies who are doing only Kubernetes and Kubernetes-focused products that are massively successful. But I think because it has had a good amount of adoption and because it's easier to work with something that's standardized, it has helped companies sell things that they wanted to sell anyway. Like, all the Datadog, all the Scalas, the logging companies, they all have Kubernetes add-ons. And now everybody is paying Datadog [laughs] to have a dashboard for their Kubernetes cluster. I think they're making more money than they would have been without targeting the market. And so, I think that's really...if you want to get into the market, it's not, like, I'm going to build a Kubernetes product. It's if I'm building operations and an infrastructure product, I should definitely have it work with Kubernetes, and people will want to click and install it. KENDALL: So, to be clear, you know, one of the companies that I work with is called Axiom, and they play in the same, you know, monitoring, observability space as Datadog does. And part of what makes Kubernetes interesting in that space is in a microservice environment; there's so much happening. Where are problems being caused? We don't live in a day where I can just run my code, and it tells me that there's an unexpected semicolon on line 23, right? Like, that still happens. You're still doing those things. But this microservice talking to that microservice is where things tend to break down. Did I communicate this correctly? What was sent? What was received? Where did it break down? What was the latency? And if you were doing things in the old way back when you were standing it up with, say, Ansible, or Puppet, or something like that, and you were orchestrating all of these cloud virtual machines, you had to really work hard to instrument the tracing and logging and everything involved in order to track what was going on. Whereas that's one of the magic things about Kubernetes is with a few of the add-ons or some of the things out of the box with Kubernetes, it's a couple of clicks to get so, so much of the data and have insight into where things are going and what's going wrong. And so, I 100% agree with that. Kubernetes is generating a tremendous amount of data. And if you're a data company, it's really nice to have all that come in, and it helps them make money, helps the user of Kubernetes in that situation understand where problems are happening and breaking down. Yeah, there's definitely some network effects of what Kubernetes is doing in that. I completely agree. JOE: I think there are also some interesting companies, like, where they make...Emissary, Ambassador, and they have that sort of dual -- KENDALL: Komodor, is that -- JOE: Yeah, maybe. They have open source, but then they have a product. KENDALL: You're thinking of Ambassador Labs. JOE: Yeah. Ambassador Labs, yeah. I guess I don't really know how much money they're making. But I think that's a really interesting concept as people who make open-source things then make a well-supported product built around it. KENDALL: Sure. What's interesting is, I think in the VC world, at least right now, and it may pick up again, but post-Silicon Valley Bank nearly caving in, I think that the VC tolerance for, yeah, just go get a billion open-source adopters, and we'll figure out how to monetize later I think that the tolerance for that is a lot lower than it was even six months ago. JOE: Yeah, I think you have to have a dual model right from the beginning now. KENDALL: Yeah. Agreed. VICTORIA: You got to figure out how to make money on Kubernetes before you can. [laughs] KENDALL: You know, minor detail. That's why I think services companies in this space still have a lot going for it. Because in order to even be able to sell software to a company using Kubernetes, you half the time have to go stand up Kubernetes for them because it is still that hard for so many people to really adopt it. VICTORIA: Yeah. And maybe, like, talking more about, like, when it is the right decision to start on Kubernetes because I think the question I get sometimes is just, is it overkill? Is it too much for what we're building? Especially, like, if you're building a brand-new product, you're not even sure if it's going to get adopted that widely. KENDALL: I mean, and I'm [laughs] curious your thought on this, Joe, but there's a good argument to be made that Heroku was enough for the vast majority of founders early on. But the thing is, Kubernetes isn't as hard as it used to be. Going and clicking a couple of buttons on GKE and deploying something into Kubernetes with GKE Autopilot running it's not as easy as Heroku, but it's not wildly far off. And it does substantially future-proof you. So, when is it too early? I'm not sure it's ever too early if you have an intention of scaling if you're planning on running some kind of legacy workload, like, things that are going to be stateful. Or maybe WordPress, for example, you don't probably need to deploy your WordPress blog onto Kubernetes. You can do that in your cPanel on Bluehost. I don't actually know if Bluehost even exists anymore, but I assume it's still a thing. I don't know, what would you say, Joe? JOE: I agree with that. I think it's a hard first pill to swallow. But I think the reality is that it's very easy to underestimate the infrastructure needs of even an early product. Like, it doesn't really matter what you're building. You're still going to have things like secrets management. You're still going to have to worry about networking. They just don't go away. There's no way you have a product without them. And so, rather than slowly solving all those problems from scratch on a platform that isn't designed for it, I think it's easier to just bite the bullet and use one of the managed solutions, especially, as you said, I think it's getting easier and easier. The activation energy from going from credit card to Kubernetes cluster is just getting lower. KENDALL: And so, the role of the CTO is just getting easier and easier because they can just adopt the one technology, and it's obviously Kubernetes. And it's obviously Rust, right? [laughter] Yeah, no, I'm with you. And I think if you find somebody who knows Kubernetes inside and out, it's really not going to take them long to get started. VICTORIA: Yeah, once again, change management is the biggest challenge for any new innovation coming into adoption. So, I'm curious to talk more about the influence that you need and how you influence others to come around to these types of ideas, like, in the executive suite and with the leadership of a company, especially on these types of topics, which can feel maybe a little abstract for people. KENDALL: How you influence them specifically to use Kubernetes, or just how you talk with them about technology adoption in general? Or what are you asking? VICTORIA: Yeah, like, how do I get people to not just turn their ears off when I say the word Kubernetes? [laughs] KENDALL: Yeah, I mean, I think...so I think that's where it's the technologist's job and the role of the CTO to translate these things into business speak. And that's why I'm using words like future-proofing your infrastructure is because there are companies that...I know one company that made a conscious decision that they were going to try to re-platform every single year, and that is not a good idea or sustainable for the vast majority [laughs] of companies. In fact, I can't think of a single situation where that makes sense. But if you can say to the CFO, "Hey, it's going to cost us a little bit more right now. It's going to save us substantially in the long term because this is the thing that's winning. And if we go standardize on Heroku right now, every company does eventually have to migrate off of Heroku. They either go out of business, or they get too big for it." That's the kind of thing that needs to be communicated in order to get people to adopt it. They don't care what the word is. They don't care if you're saying Kubernetes; you know, most CFOs understand it about as well as my mom does. My mom tries to bring it up in conversation because she's heard me use it. And she thinks it makes her sound smart, which maybe it does in the right climate. VICTORIA: My partner does the same thing. He says DevOps and Kubernetes all the time. I'm like; you don't know what you're talking about. [laughter] JOE: Those words do not come up in my house. KENDALL: One of my kids asked me to explain Kubernetes. And I do a whole talk, particularly at organizations where understanding Kubernetes is essential to the salespeople's role. And I give a whole talk about the background of how we got here from deploying on some servers in our back room. And, you know, what's different about the cloud, what containerization did, et cetera. And I have this long explanation. And I remember taking a deep breath and saying to my kids, "Do you really want to hear this?" And I had one son say, "Yes, absolutely." And my wife and three of the other kids all stood up and said, "No way," and left the room. So, when somebody asks me, "What do you do?" Actually, one of the key relationships I built with some of the early people at GCP when we were partnering closely with them was a person that I met, and I asked, "What do you do for a living?" And he said, "I can tell you, but it's not going to mean anything to you." And I was like, "That's what I say to people." And it turned out he was in charge of, you know, Kubernetes partnerships for Google. I can explain to you what it means and why it's important. But you're not going to be happy that I spent that time explaining it to you. VICTORIA: [laughs] That sounds awesome, though. It sounds like you built a server rack just to demo to your children what it was. KENDALL: No, no. I just talked back through the history of...that company that I mentioned that built Twitter about five years too early; we had a, you know, we had a server rack in the...literally physically in our closet that was serving up our product at the time. VICTORIA: Probably the best demo I ever saw was at Google headquarters in Herndon, and someone had built...They had 3D-printed a little mini server rack that they had put Raspberry Pis onto, and then they had Kubernetes deployed on it. And they did an automatic failover of a node to just demo how it works and had little lights that went with it. It was pretty fun. So maybe you should get one for yourself. [laughter] It's a fun project. KENDALL: They remember the things that it enables. They don't remember what it does. And so, when I say so, and so is a client that's using this technology, then they get real excited because they're like, "My dad makes that work." And I'm like, well, okay, that's kind of a stretch, but you get the idea. VICTORIA: Yeah, you got to lean into that kind of reputation in your house. KENDALL: That's right. VICTORIA: And you're like, yes, that's correct. KENDALL: That's right. [laughs] VICTORIA: I do make Kubernetes. I make all the clouds work, yeah. KENDALL: Actually, my most common explanation is Kubernetes is the plumbing of the internet. Unless you're a plumber, you don't care about the pipes. You just want your shit to flush when you use the toilet. You want the things to load when you click your buttons. You don't actually care what's going on behind the scenes, but this is what's orchestrating it increasingly across the internet. VICTORIA: So far, we've called Kubernetes WordPress or the toilet. [laughs] KENDALL: The plumbing. [laughter] VICTORIA: You are really good at selling it. [laughter] KENDALL: Hey, if you want to build a nice, clean city, you need good plumbing. You might not care what the pipes are made of, but you need good plumbing. [laughs] VICTORIA: Works for me. On that note -- [laughs] KENDALL: Yeah. Right? Right? VICTORIA: That's [inaudible 36:41] on a high note. Is there anything else that you'd like to promote? KENDALL: With regards to CTO Lunches, we have a free listserv. There are local lunches. If there isn't a local lunch where you are, it's very lightweight to start up a chapter. We often have folks who are willing to sponsor that first lunch to get you going. We do have a paid tier of CTO Lunches. If you want a small back room Slack channel of people to discuss, I think it's $99 a month. Yeah, if you're a CTO and/or a senior engineering leader and you want a community of people to process with, be it our free tier or our paid tier, we've got something for you. We're trying to invest in this to build community around it. And it's something we enjoy doing more than almost anything. Come take part. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Kendall Miller.

Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes. From Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance. To receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. Marc Mar-Yohana is the CEO and Founder of OtisHealth, a personal health application and platform for patient-caregiver engagement, population health, and clinical research. The conversation revolves around the origin and working principles of OtisHealth, a healthcare app designed to consolidate health information. Marc was motivated to start the app following the tragic death of his eight-year-old daughter, Constance, from an undiagnosed brain tumor. Despite being under the care of multiple health providers, the fragmentation of her medical data meant they missed the signs of her condition. Marc has dedicated his life to developing better tools for families and caregivers to manage their loved one's health. He aimed to create a unified system where all health data could be gathered, enabling caregivers, patients, and medical providers to see the whole picture. OtisHealth allows patients to integrate data from different sources, including wearable devices, and capture information outside clinical settings. The initial outreach strategy of OtisHealth through consumer channels was slow to get traction. The company switched to recruiting through organizations with health interests, such as health insurers or "payers," leading to a significant increase in users. Although not everyone uses the app daily, it is a crucial health management tool for those with chronic illnesses or emergencies. The trustworthiness of OtisHealth is demonstrated through accreditation from the Electronic Healthcare Network Accreditation Commission, indicating that their practices meet or exceed federal regulatory requirements and industry guidelines. This, along with community outreach and educational content, helped build trust with users. Marc's diverse corporate background gave him the skill set to lead OtisHealth, emphasizing the importance of team development and collaboration with other organizations, even competitors, to move the mission forward. __ OtisHealth (https://otishealth.net/) Follow OtisHealth on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/OtisHealth), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/otishealth/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/bloxisawesome/), or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5yGWpOTCOJnbxjD1LnkMXg) Follow Marc Mar-Yohana on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/marc-mar-yohana/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Marc Mar-Yohana, CEO and Founder of OtisHealth, a personal health application and a platform for patient-caregiver engagement, population health, and clinical research. Marc, thank you for joining me. MARC: Victoria, I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you on this podcast. VICTORIA: You're welcome. I'm excited to have you. So, why don't you just tell me a little bit about what's going on in your world right now? MARC: Well, OtisHealth is keeping me pretty busy. So, I live in Northern California. My team is mostly in California, a little bit in Illinois. And we're busy every day, both supporting our members and working with clients. And so, it's exciting times, especially on our advocacy front. We work with organizations across the country to advocate for patient access to their health records and also for individuals themselves to improve their access to quality healthcare wherever they reside in the United States. The advocacy, the work with our clients, and the work with our members keeps us super busy. Although I do still try to make time to hike in the beautiful scenery out here. I'm new to California. I'm originally from Illinois, so it's great to just be able to get out every once in a while for a hike in the area. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. Have you made it to any redwood forest out there? MARC: Yeah, Muir Woods, which is just north of us, north of the San Francisco Bay Area. Most of the time, we like to walk the coastline. So just north of Santa Cruz is a great state park known as Wilder State Ranch. And they have amazing views of the coastline, wonderful views of birds, as well as occasionally spotting whales, and dolphins, and sea otters along the coast. VICTORIA: That's so cool. I had a friend, actually, who just went up there and went kayaking with the otters, and I'm very jealous. [laughter] It sounds beautiful. MARC: Yeah, that can be fun. Otters are really cute creatures. And they can be aggressive too. There's a concern right now. There's one female otter that likes to grab people's surfboards. And I saw a video of a sea lion jumping on top of a sea kayak to steal a fish from a fisherman. VICTORIA: I think if a sea otter or a sea lion wanted my vessel, a kayak or surfboard, I mean, you can have it. [laughter] You worked this hard. [laughs] MARC: Yeah, they're pretty aggressive. They're more comfortable in the water than we are, so they [laughs] pretty much are in charge in the environment. VICTORIA: That's right. We're in their house, right? So, I'm, like, okay, [laughs] you can have it. That's great. Oh, wonderful. I'm glad you still have time to get outside and enjoy hiking with your family, even though you're a very busy founder [chuckles] and very active advocate for your community. So, why don't you tell me how everything with OtisHealth got started? MARC: So, it started with a tragedy, a horrible tragedy in my life. My daughter, Constance, who was eight years old at the time and had been previously diagnosed with autism, apraxia of speech, and epilepsy, died from an undiagnosed brain tumor. She had great healthcare. She had a neurologist, a pediatrician. She had therapists that saw her five days a week and, of course, her parents watching over her. Yet, we all missed the symptoms, the major illness that claimed her life. And so, because all of her healthcare providers were on different systems, and as parents, we didn't have a system, there wasn't a place to put our observations together. And everyone attributed their observations of her changing condition to other medical concerns. And so, after she passed, I started to spend a couple of years trying to understand what happened. And I realized a big part of it was the information was in front of us. It was just in different people's hands. And when we put it together, we could have seen the whole picture that would have shown that she had a more serious illness. And so I chose a new mission in my life: to abandon my corporate career and move into this role of developing a better set of tools for families and caregivers to manage their loved one's health. And so, our mission today is to work with families, caregivers, and people with chronic illness to give them better tools to manage their everyday health and the health of their loved ones, and thereby also improving lives in the community. VICTORIA: Well, I love that out of the tragedy, you were able to find direction and purpose to solve this major problem, which I can relate to having moved across the country. Your medical records don't come with you. You have to basically kind of start all over, or they have to go get them from your past patients. It's not unified as a system, as you might think that is. [laughs] MARC: That's absolutely right. Our data is spread out across different clinical sources. Just in the time I moved out here to California from Chicago, I saw five different providers just because I wanted to get some tests done. So, I had to go to a few different locations to do a normal battery of tests. And so, I had at least five different health records created just when I moved out here. And they're all in different systems, and they're not even on the same type of application. So, to bring them together, I had to basically download them and put them in files on my desktop computer. With OtisHealth, I'm able to retrieve that data and put it onto one continuous record and watch it. But that's still just our clinical data, meaning data collected in clinical settings. We have more data to share of things that you and I observe as regular people or our families observe. And so, the part that's missing in the record is all the observations in the time that we're not in the physician, in a physician's office, or in the presence of a clinician. We can; with our tools today, such as wearable watches, or blood pressure cuffs that are Bluetooth-connected, we can get a lot more data and share that back into our records so that we have a true baseline, not the once-a-year that I go to see a physician, and they say my blood pressure is high. And the next time I go, it's low. It's because we only have two data points over two years. Where today, with our technology and our capabilities, we can have a baseline of true data continuously throughout the year that will give the physician or care team more insights into how we're doing in terms of our health. VICTORIA: That's so interesting. And it makes a lot of sense to me why someone would want to use this or why doctors would want to use this. And I'm curious, once you had this idea, how did you get that initial traction to get started with OtisHealth? MARC: Initially, it was a little difficult. And this is kind of part of our lessons learned when we started the company. We started advertising on Facebook. This is after we launched the product. So, we launched in 2021. We had the idea that we were going to make this available to a lot of people. We knew a lot of folks that needed it. It was okay to get the first 100 or so people because there were folks that we knew needed the application or folks that were curious about it and wanted to try it. And we started advertising through consumer channels such as Facebook, and LinkedIn, and other magazines to people that we knew had the need for the app. Yet, it was a very slow uptake. And the part of what we learned and we started applying to our marketing or our membership development or recruitment thesis is that the health records are kind of like an umbrella. We don't think about the umbrella or going out to get an umbrella until it's raining, and for most people, it doesn't rain very often. And so, it's not something that people would use every day. In most cases, they use it only when they have an emergency or when they're managing their chronic illness or the chronic illness of a loved one. And so, we eventually changed the way we were recruiting and started recruiting through other organizations, such as clients where we're able to get thousands of users through the client that has members. And then, slowly, over time, teach them the importance of managing their everyday health, and taking their own vitals, and recording that, and they record for themselves and their family. VICTORIA: Right. So, you were able to offer the app for free for daily users because you found another group that was interested in having access to the data and having this app, right? MARC: Yeah. So, anybody today can go to the Apple Store or the Google Play Store and they could download the app for free. And they can use the web version also. And they could share it with friends and family, which I always encourage people to do. So, if you have an emergency contact, invite them to your medical records; at least they have your basic medications, and allergies, and other key information in case of an emergency. What we did in terms of our change of strategy early on is we started going to organizations that also had an interest in improving the health of their population and, in particular, health insurers or what we call in the industry payers. And so, payer organizations could be Medicaid, Medicare, or it could be employee health plan, one of the big health insurance companies like Blue Cross or UnitedHealthcare. They have an interest in people managing their everyday health. And so, one of our clients right now, everyone that enrolls in one of their plans automatically gets enrolled in a version of OtisHealth specifically for their members. And those members could still invite people to join them on the platform, and those people can get on with OtisHealth. But the nice thing is now this payer has a way to both encourage healthier activity or healthier practices for their population and monitor if there's a problem. So, if somebody is missing medications, or not taking their medications on time, or has vitals that are tracking poorly, this gives the payer an opportunity to reach out and ask them if they need help managing their health. VICTORIA: So, how does that dynamic affect how you measure successful engagement on the platform, like, a successful rate of engagement? MARC: So, for us, most people don't use the app every day. Most of us don't even think about our health [laughs] on a daily basis from a standpoint of our medical health or clinical health. Sometimes those of us that exercise regularly think about it in those terms or eating healthy. But we don't think about keeping a record or using an app to maintain our health. And so, for us, an active user is anybody that's logging in at least once a month to update their information. Our really great users are the ones who are using the reminder features to take supplements or take their medications. And so, I would say of the few thousand users that we have—we're approaching 10,000 right now active users—only a small percentage of those, maybe 10%, are actually using it on a daily basis for themselves or their family. And so, for us, a good engagement and good practice is folks setting reminders on at least a weekly basis to take vitals, weigh themselves—something that would help them track their health over time—and if they're taking medications, to set daily reminders for the medications that they take. And so, we currently have far more people enrolled in OtisHealth and that, you know, 5,000, 6000 I mentioned that are active. But they basically bought the umbrella, and they just put it in their closet. They're waiting for that rainy day that they have to pull it out and start using it. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And I'm already in my head going through the people in my family who would benefit from this where, you know, I have family members who have a learning and a physical disability, and tracking everything that they're supposed to be doing to maintain their health is quite difficult. So, I can definitely see the value in that and why people would want to use it. And I think for, you know, healthcare apps, you have to build this high level of trust. You know, people are giving you all this data about their health information. So, how do you go about building a product that people can trust from the beginning? MARC: One of the things we sort early in the life of OtisHealth is an accreditation. An accreditation is not required by law. It's not required by any institution necessarily. It's a third party that reviews our practices and our systems to see if we're actually following good privacy and security standards and practices. And so we went live in November of 2021, and by the end of December of 2021, we already had our full accreditation in what's called a comprehensive level from a national established organization known as The Electronic Healthcare Network Accreditation Commission. And so, that was the first step of making sure that folks understood that we took their privacy and security seriously. That accreditation means that our practices and our technology meets or exceeds federal regulatory requirements and industry guidelines. And that's just the first step. Then after that, it's really a matter of people gain their trust because an accreditation itself doesn't necessarily mean that we trust that brand. That's just a basic starting point for us. After that, we publish articles about maintaining health. We have launched some videos about different aspects of our advocacy, such as with autism for caregivers. And we participate in community activities at the national level to improve patient access and to talk about how important it is to manage our own health and the health of our loved ones. And so, it's a combination of both basic accreditations that show that we made the investment, and we provided a third party to critique us and to review us. And we actively maintain that accreditation is not a one-time stamp. And then, the second part is continuous outreach, and letting the community know what we're working on, what's important to us, so that, over time, they start to look at what we do and start to trust it and invite other people to trust it as well. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'm curious if there were experiences from your corporate career that informed how you acted as a founder and what you prioritized. MARC: I've had an odd corporate career. [laughs] So, I started my career as an engineer in manufacturing operations and in product development and then went down to as a consultant strategy in ops and market management, and then, later, investment management and private equity, and then, later, for a safety science company where I was managing global capital investments in technology and new operations. And so, I've been fortunate that I've had a breadth of experience, from marketing to sales, to product and technology development, and infrastructure management. So, I had some basic skills that helped me understand what...well, the endeavor before I jumped into it because I spent a couple of years thinking about whether or not I even wanted to do something like this. And then, I would say probably the most important part of my previous experience that I apply every day at OtisHealth is developing teams and developing collaboration with different organizations. You know, aside from the team that I have, our own staff, we also work very closely with other organizations, even competitors, to make sure that we're all successful. And so, that collaboration across organizations that don't even have a necessarily contractual relationship is something that I brought over from my previous work and seeing how working across the industry, we can help each other and serve the mission. So, I think that was probably the most important part of my previous work experience that I apply today is this: building a team and building a coalition of organizations that want to move forward together. VICTORIA: That's great. And I'm wondering if there was anything that surprised you in that early phase of building collaboration with other companies and understanding your users that changed the strategic direction you were going with in the app. MARC: So, one of the things that I was really just in awe of was how willing people in the healthcare industry were to jump in and help out when we started talking. And so, many of the organizations that we work with, the founders or the senior staff within the nonprofits we work with, all have a story of why they're doing what they're doing. Many are brilliant people who could have taken their careers in many different directions, not in healthcare. And they chose to move forward in healthcare because of some personal experience in their life. And so, as I learned about the people I was working with, I was surprised how quickly they just took me under their wing and said, "Hey, let's get you started marketing. Let's move OtisHealth forward." And so, we have organizations like Onyx and Invitae [SP] that are giving us support in data access. There's another organization that I can't mention yet; that's another private entity that has offered their support, and we hope to launch with them in the next couple of weeks. And so, we're forming these data access bridges to help get patients more access to their data, their loved ones' data. And then, there's the nonprofits in the advocacy and standards organizations we work with, such as HL7, which is an international health technology standards organization, and DirectTrust, which is an organization that establishes trust networks in ecosystems, as well as the technology infrastructure behind how those systems communicate. And we work also with EHNAC, the accreditation commission. So, we not only are using the accreditation from EHNAC, we're on committees to advise them on future criteria for accreditation. VICTORIA: That's really cool. I love that there's that collaboration and just openness and willingness to try to make things better and to invest in solutions together. Mid-Roll Ad: VICTORIA: Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5K per month for companies of all sizes. From Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance. To receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. VICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who is the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right? RICHARD: Hi, Victoria. VICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance? RICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth. And so, a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are, we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application that, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along. And then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so, a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you. VICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance? RICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance. The other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so, those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make. And then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so, that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application. VICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where, suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken. RICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it. VICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, "Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance." [laughs] And maybe you can share some details. RICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So, we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down. And it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics. VICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head. So... [laughter] RICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you. VICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So... RICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon. RICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you. VICTORIA: You mentioned advocacy. And I'm curious if you could say more about what advocacy are you doing or how does that blend into your business model and what you're doing with OtisHealth? MARC: I'll give you an example. One of the organizations we belong to and I participate in personally is the Health Information Management System Society. And so, this is a professional society of healthcare IT professionals. And in Northern California, there's an advocacy committee that works directly with the state legislature to promote legislation that will improve the quality of healthcare for people in California. We actively talk to members of the legislature to tell them what bills we think are important. The ones we focus on and the ones I personally focus on are the ones that improve access to our data and also improve our privacy. So, there's a legislation in California, as an example, that will prohibit access to people's healthcare data without proper legal warrant. So, it's basically extending HIPAA protections across any health app launched in California. And we, of course, are already HIPAA-compliant, so that's very easy for us. There's also advocacy specific to certain health conditions. So, my daughter had autism. I work with the Autism Society here in California and also Achieve Tahoe, which is an organization that teaches skiing and other skills to people with disabilities in particular. This past season was my first season. I work primarily with children and young adults with autism and other developmental disorders. And then we also partner with organizations when we think that they're aligned with some of our mission. And so we work with the Caregiver Action Network. We also will work with AARP and other organizations regarding caregiver rights and also teaching caregivers how to access the healthcare data of their loved ones and how to take care of themselves personally. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I guess it's not really a question, but I saw that autism service dogs are a thing, and I just thought that was really cool. [laughs] MARC: Yeah, OtisHealth is named after Constance's autism service dog, Otis. And so, service dogs are extraordinary animals. They're highly trained. Otis had been trained for two years before we received him. He was trained specifically for Constance's needs, and he kept her safe. And that was the primary interest in Otis is observing things that she...because of her cognitive limitations, wasn't always aware of her surroundings and wasn't always safe. And so, the dog maintained her safety and her boundaries and kept her focused, as well as just basically blocked her if she was going to do something that was unsafe. So, there are many different kinds of service dogs, and I'm talking specifically about ADA, the Americans with Disability Act type service dogs. These aren't, like, companion dogs or therapy dogs. These are truly highly trained animals that are focused on specific tasks to help an individual be safer, more free, or have more abilities than their disabilities may allow. VICTORIA: Well, I love that. And I like that the app is named after her dog as well. That's just very sweet. And I love that that's how that worked. And I'm curious, what's on the horizon? What are you most excited about for OtisHealth in the next year? MARC: Like all startups, we have [laughs] a lot of plans. And we've been invited to speak at some conferences. I spoke at two already this year. And I have another one coming up in Washington, D.C., where we're going to advocate, again, for patient access. And this is primarily talking to the health systems themselves in adopting technology that makes it easier for patients to securely access their health records. And so, we're excited about that movement in the industry to recognize and start to act on that need for patients to be able to access their health records. And we work with our partners to promote that and also with the federal government. We work with the health and human services to promote this access. And we were published in a report earlier this year because of our technology demonstration with health and human services. And it sounds like it's finally getting some real traction in hospital systems. And members of the Federal Congress are also saying that this is something we need to move forward with in a more aggressive manner. On a more direct path, we're excited our membership's growing. We've had tens of thousands of people register to use the app, with thousands actively using it today. We're working on some new programs right now for payers and for providers that will improve health outcomes and within their populations, as well as bring on hundreds of thousands of other people on the app. We're really excited to know that we're getting both recognized for the work that we're doing and that people are starting to understand the importance of managing everyday health, whether it's with OtisHealth or another application. VICTORIA: Well, I love being excited for these opportunities to advocate for your product and for the mission behind the product. I'm not going to recommend being excited about going to D.C. during the summer. [laughs] Last time I was there when I landed at 9:00 p.m., it was 90 degrees outside [chuckles] and humid, like, 90% humidity. But it's great to have access to people who care and are trying to make things better and have that voice. I'm excited to see you grow. And then, it's been two years since you started the app. I wonder, if you could go back in time to when you first were getting started, what advice would you give yourself? MARC: So, this is a really hard thing for anybody to look back and say that they'd like to change a few things. There are things I would change. I have a lot of experience managing large, sophisticated programs. Because in the past I had large budgets, it was really easy to maintain strict discipline around the implementation. And I think I was too loose in the implementation process at the onset of OtisHealth. I would have been more disciplined around my program management and the accountability that I had to developers I was using. As a startup, I didn't have a large development team in-house. I needed to use external parties. And I should have been a little more closely on top of that process. The other things that we experienced were primarily a result of pivots. We were constantly pivoting as we were learning. I think having a team to review our process and pivot more quickly is really critical. You don't want to pivot 20 times a week. You need to stay focused for a while, but also having friends or advisors or members of your team that can help you assess when a pivot is necessary, or a new opportunity presents itself, I think, is critical. And so, we all know, as founders, the team is key. And I think the earlier you engage a team and not be bashful by asking for advice, the better. VICTORIA: I love that. And I'm curious if you have any advice from your program or from your startup career now on choosing the right development teams. And how do you find those right partners to actually build the app and have that accountability? MARC: So, I would say the number one thing that I've learned, that I knew previously, but I really appreciate it more now as a founder of a small company, is you need mission alignment, not just company to company, but person to person. And I took my time picking advisors to join us, and I took my time getting people on board to OtisHealth. We pick folks that we believe understand what we're doing, and we take our time and make sure that they appreciate it and that we're comfortable with them. Our startup is too small to make a bad hire or to have the wrong perspective because somebody has other motives, such as just making money. If I was providing advice in terms of picking teams or picking vendors to work with, I would say take it slow. Don't rush, even though you may be in a rush, or we may be in a rush to get moving, either for financial reasons or personal reasons. It's important just to feel comfortable. Get to know folks. Meet them in person if you can and spend a few hours with them at a time [laughs], just to make sure that they believe in you, and you believe in them, and that you have a common vision. Because when things get rough or tough, financially or otherwise, you need people that are going to be able to stick through it and work with you. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of pivots happening. You want everyone to be on the same page. And you don't want to have to be corralling everyone all the time if they have competing priorities, so that makes a lot of sense. MARC: Absolutely. Just to be clearer on that, we all run into challenges. So, in some cases, we had to make some financial sacrifices, and everyone did it together. You really need people that are that committed that say, "Okay, I understand where we are, and so, I'm willing to take a pay cut for a while or not get paid for a while until we can get this spec started again." Even vendors I work with today that are strategic vendors understand that and have helped us financially when we need some time to get more revenue in. VICTORIA: Great. And so, when you were building a healthcare app, was there people you needed to have on your team who had that exact specialty in either patient care, or medical records, or something like that? MARC: Yes, yeah, you need experts. So, I'm a quick read. I mean, I spent a couple of years learning the industry and understanding the technology. But the person that's our IT director he has over 25 years of experience in healthcare IT systems, so he is the expert in-house. We also have advisors on our team that are experts in payer services and payer systems, launching healthcare apps, managing standards, and managing SaaS services. We have a data and an AI expert, and a clinical research specialist. We also have physicians we refer to. [laughs] So, we have a pretty big entourage of individuals that we go to for very specific advice and work. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Let's see, what question should I be asking that I haven't asked yet? MARC: You know, I think most of the people listening to this podcast are technical founders. And it was surprising to me, and I had some founders contact me, asked for some free advice, which I'm happy to do, but they didn't seem sincere in their interest in being in healthcare. And one thing I told them, and I would say to anybody that's interested in being a healthcare technology developer, is you have to have a reason to do it besides the money. It will be a really hard battle to move forward with a technology if the only motivation is a financial opportunity. That isn't going to sustain the pivots or the development. You'll run into a lot of walls, primarily because everyone will see it. Everyone in the industry sees those players come in that just have a financial interest, and the consumers see it, and they don't like it. So, my advice to anybody that wants to develop technology in healthcare is you have to be a little sincere about it and have a real reason to do it beyond just making money, and I think you'll find it more rewarding. There's so much need for healthcare technology and better technology out there. So, I welcome folks to join the fight, the battle, or the opportunities. But I would say that just come in with the idea that you're helping people, not just making money. VICTORIA: I think that rings true for any business you're in, right? But especially in healthcare because it is this big target. Even in consulting, if you're doing business development and you're thinking of working on health IT projects, there's just a huge market that you have to narrow down and figure out where you're going to be. So, if you don't have that intrinsic motivation, it can be overwhelming and scattered, and then people won't connect with you, right? Because everybody is going after the same thing. MARC: That's exactly right. One of the conferences I went to earlier this year, a speaker got up and said, "People invest in people, or people make deals with other people." We talk about companies signing a deal with another company, but it's really one person trusting another person. Whether it's in healthcare or another industry, obviously, that trust needs to happen. At some point, if I don't trust the individual I'm talking to, I'm less likely to have a deal with that company. VICTORIA: Right. It's like; I don't know how, you know, it doesn't really matter how impressive your credentials are. If there's not a basic level of trust, you might not move forward with it, so that makes a lot of sense to me. MARC: Yeah, that's absolutely right, Victoria. VICTORIA: Absolutely. Is there anything else that you'd like to promote at the end of this podcast? MARC: I'd love for folks to try OtisHealth. If you have family that have chronic medical needs or need help managing their medical information, please download OtisHealth, help them join. There are videos on YouTube that explain how to use it if you need some guidance, but we believe most of it is self-explanatory. We are continuously adding data access points. We're going to be launching this week new versions of OtisHealth that have access privileges for people in New York and Nevada and parts of California and Colorado. And so that means that with the app, once you're ID-proofed on the app, you can use it to get your medical records from different sources without having to log into all these different patient portals. So please try it. Use it for yourself but especially use it for your family or anybody who you care for. We'd love to get your feedback as you use the app too. VICTORIA: That's great. And I'm actually already thinking about...next week; I'm going to be going to The San Diego Annual Veterans Stand Down, where anyone who is experiencing homelessness can come in and get access to all the services that they might need, whether it's legal, or healthcare, or dentistry, showers, food, all of these things. And I'm curious if that organization might benefit from having a tool like that for their users. So, I'll be talking about it. [laughs] MARC: Oh, thank you so much. That'd be wonderful. Thank you. VICTORIA: That's great. Well, thank you so much, Marc, for joining us. MARC: My pleasure. Thank you, Victoria, for having me on the show. VICTORIA: Excellent. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Marc Mar-Yohana.

Charity Majors is Co-Founder and CTO of Honeycomb, which provides full-stack observability that enables engineers to deeply understand and debug production software together. Victoria and Will talk to Charity about observability, her technical background and decision to start Honeycomb.io, thoughts about the whole ops SRE profession, and things that surprised her along her journey of building a company around observability as a concept. Honeycomb (https://www.honeycomb.io/) Follow Honeycomb on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/honeycombio), Twitter (https://twitter.com/honeycombio), Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCty8KGQ3oAP0MQQmLIv7k0Q), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/honeycomb.io/). Follow Charity Majors on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/charity-majors/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/mipsytipsy), or visit her website (https://charity.wtf/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Charity Majors, Co-Founder and CTO of Honeycomb, which provides full-stack observability that enables engineers to deeply understand and debug production software together. Charity, thank you for joining us. How are you doing? CHARITY: Thanks for having me. I'm a little bit crunchy from a [laughs] long flight this morning. But I'm very happy to be home in San Francisco and happy to be talking to you. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And, Charity, I looked at your profile and noticed that you're a fan of whiskey. And I thought I might ask you just to get us started here, like, what's your favorite brand? CHARITY: Oh, goodness, that's like asking me to choose my favorite child if I had children. [laughter]. You know, I used to really be into the peaty scotches, the Islays, in particular. But lately, I've been more of a bourbon kick. Of course, everybody loves Pappy Van Winkle, George T. Stagg; impossible to find now, but it's so, so good. You know, if it's high-proof and single barrel, I will probably drink it. VICTORIA: That sounds great. Yeah, I tend to have the same approach. And, like, people ask me if I like it, and I like all of them. [laughter] I don't [inaudible 01:21] that I didn't like. [laughs] CHARITY: [inaudible 01:23] tongue sting? Then I'm in. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, [inaudible 01:26]. WILL: See, I'm the opposite. I want something smooth. I'm a fruity drink type of guy. I'm just going, to be honest. CHARITY: There's no shame in that. WILL: No shame here. [laughs] Give me a margarita, and you have a happy Will for life. [laughs] VICTORIA: We'll have to get you to come out and visit San Diego for some margaritas, Will. That's -- CHARITY: Oh yeah. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's the place to be. Yeah, we do more of a bourbon drink in our house, like bourbon soda. That's usually what we make, like, my own custom simple syrup, and mix it with a little bourbon and soda water. And that's what we do for a cool down at the end of the day sometimes, yeah. Well, awesome. Let's see. So, Charity, why don't you just tell me a little more about Honeycomb? What is it? CHARITY: Well, it's a startup that hasn't failed yet, so... [laughs] to my own shock. [laughs] We're still around seven and a half years in. And I say that just so much joking. Like, you're not really supposed to say this as a founder, but, like, I 100% thought we were going to fail from the beginning. But we haven't yet, and we just got more money. So we'll be around for a while. We kind of pioneered the whole concept of observability, which now doesn't really mean anything at all. Everybody and their mother is like, well, I do observability, too. But back when we started talking about it, it was kind of a little bit revolutionary, I guess in that, you know, we started talking about how important it is to have high cardinality data in your systems. You really can't debug without it. And the fact that our systems are getting just astronomically more complex, and yet, we're still trying to debug it with these tools based on, you know, the metric data type [laughs] defined since the '70s when space was incredibly rare and expensive. And now space is incredibly cheap, but we should be wasteful with it so we can understand our incredibly complex systems. So that's us. We really try to empower software engineers to own their own code in production. For a long time, it was like, all of the tools for you to understand your software were really written for low-level ops people because they speak the language of, like, RAM, and disks, and CPU, which you shouldn't have to understand that in order to be able to understand I just deployed something, what went wrong? WILL: I love the honesty because there are so many founders that I'll talk to, and I'm like, okay, you're very successful. But did you really expect this to be what it is today? Did you really expect to survive? Because, like, just some of their ideas, I'm like, it's brilliant, but if I was with you back in the day, I'd be like, it ain't going to work. It's not going to work. [laughs] CHARITY: Yeah. And I feel like the VC culture really encourages delusion, just, like, self-delusion, like, this delusive thinking. You're supposed to, like, broadcast just, like, rock-solid confidence in yourself and your ideas at all time. And I think that only sociopaths do that. [laughs] I don't want to work for anyone who's that confident in themselves or their idea. Because I'm showing my own stripes, I guess, you know, I'm a reliability engineer. I wake up in the morning; I'm like, what's wrong with the day? That's just how my brain works. But I feel like I would rather work with people who are constantly scanning the horizon and being like, okay, what's likely to kill us today? Instead of people who are just like, I am right. [laughs] You know? VICTORIA: Yeah. And I can relate that back to observability by thinking how, you know, you can have an idea about how your system is supposed to work, and then there's the way that it actually works. [laughs] CHARITY: Oh my God. VICTORIA: Right? CHARITY: Yes. It's so much that. VICTORIA: Maybe you can tell us just a little bit more about, like, what is observability? Or how would you explain that to someone who isn't necessarily in it every day? CHARITY: I would explain it; I mean, it depends on who your audience is, of course. But I would explain it like engineers spend all day in their IDEs. And they come to believe that that's what software is. But software is not lines of code. Software is those lines of code running in production with real users using it. That's when software becomes real. And, for too long, we've treated like that, like, an entirely different...well, it's written. [laughs] You know, for launch, I was like, well, it's ops' problem, as the meme says. But we haven't really gotten to a point yet where...I feel like when you're developing with observability; you should be instrumenting your code as you go with an eye towards your future self. How am I going to know if this is working or not? How am I going to know if this breaks? And when you deploy it, you should then go and look at your code in production and look at it through the lens of the telemetry that you just wrote and ask yourself, is it doing what I expected it to? Does anything else look weird? Because the cost of finding and fixing bugs goes up exponentially from the moment that you write them. It's like you type a bug; you backspace. Cool, good for you. That's the fastest you can fix it. The next fastest is if you find it when you're running tests. But tests are only ever going to find the things you could predict were going to fail or that have already failed. The first real opportunity that you have to see if your code really works or not is right after you've deployed it, but only if you've given yourself the telemetry to do so. Like, the idea of just merging your code, like walking out the door or merging your code and waiting to get paged or to get [laughs] escalated to this is madness. This should be such an artifact of the battle days when dev writes, and ops runs it. That doesn't work, right? Like, in the beginning, we had software engineers who wrote code and ran that code in production, and that's how things should be. You should be writing code and running code in production. And the reason I think we're starting to see that reality emerge again is because our systems have gotten so complicated. We kind of can't not because you can't really run your code as a black box anymore. You can't ignore what's on the inside. You have to be able to look at the code in order to be able to run it effectively. And conversely, I don't think you could develop good code unless you're constantly exposing yourself to the consequences of that code. It lets you know when it breaks, that whole feedback loop that completely severed when we had dev versus ops. And we're slowly kind of knitting it together again. But, like, that's what's at the heart of that incredibly powerful feedback loop. It's the heart of all software engineering is, instrumenting your code and looking at it and asking yourself, is it doing what I expected it to do? WILL: That's really neat. You said you're a reliability engineer. What's your background? Tell me more about it because you're the CTO of Honeycomb. So you have some technical background. What does that look like? CHARITY: Yeah, well, I was a music major and then a serial dropout. I've never graduated from anything, ever. And then, I worked at startups in Silicon Valley. Nothing you'd ever...well, I worked at Linden Lab for a few years and some other places. But honestly, the reason I started Honeycomb was because...so I worked at Parse. I was the infrastructure lead at Parse; rest in peace. It got acquired by Facebook. And when I was leaving Facebook, it was the only time in my life that I'd ever had a pedigree. Well, I've actually been an ops engineer my entire career. When I was leaving Facebook, I had VCs going, "Would you like some money to do something? Because you're coming from Facebook, so you must be smart." On the one hand, that was kind of offensive. And on the other hand, like, I kind of felt the obligation to just take the money and run, like, on behalf of all dropouts, of women, and queers everywhere. Just, you know, how often...am I ever going to get this chance again? No, I'm not. So, good. VICTORIA: Yes, I will accept your money. [laughs] CHARITY: Yeah, right? VICTORIA: I will take it. And I'm not surprised that you were a music major. I've met many, I would say, people who are active in social media about DevOps, and then it turns out they were a theater major, [laughs] or music, or something different. And they kind of naturally found their way. CHARITY: The whole ops SRE profession has historically been a real magnet for weirdo people, weird past, people who took very non-traditional. So it's always been about tinkering, just understanding systems. And there hasn't been this high bar for formal, you know, knowledge that you need just to get your first job. I feel like this is all changing. And it makes me kind of...I understand why it's changing, and it also makes me kind of sad. VICTORIA: So I think you have a quote about, you know, working on infrastructure teams that everything comes back to databases. CHARITY: [laughs] VICTORIA: I wonder if you could expand on that. CHARITY: I've been an accidental DBA my entire career. I just always seemed to be the one left holding the bag. [laughs] We were playing musical chairs. I just feel like, you know, as you're moving up the stack, you can get more and more reckless. As you move down the stack, the closer you get to, like, bits on disk, the more conservative you have to be, the more blast radius your mistakes could have. Like, shit changes all the time in JavaScript land. In database land, we're still doing CRUD operators, like, since Stonebreaker did it in the '70s. We're still doing very fundamental stuff. I love it, though, because, I don't know, it's such a capsule of computers at large, which is just that people have no idea how much shit breaks. [laughs] Stuff breaks all the time. And the beauty of it is that we keep going. It's not that things don't break. You have no idea how much stuff is broken in your stack right now. But we find ways to resolve it after the fact. I just think that data is so fascinating because it has so much gravity. I don't know, I could keep going, but I feel like you get the point. I just think it's really fun. I think danger is fun, I think. It might not surprise you to learn that I, too, was diagnosed with ADHD in the past couple of years. I feel like this is another strand that most DevOps, SRE types have in common, which is just [laughs] highly motivated in a good way by panic. [laughs] WILL: I love that you said you love danger because I feel like that is right in your wheelhouse. Like, you have to love danger to be in that field because it's predictable. You're the one that's coming in and putting out the fires when everyone sometimes they're running for the window. Like you said, like, you got caught holding the bag. So that's really neat. This is a big question for me, especially for being an engineer, a dev, do you find that product and design teams understand and see the value in SRE? CHARITY: Oooh. These types of cultural questions are always so difficult for me to gauge whether or not my sample is representative of the larger population. Because, in my experience, you know, ops teams typically rule the roost, like, they get final say over everything. But I know that that's not typically true. Like, throughout the industry, like, ops teams kind of have a history of being kind of kicked around. I think that they do see the value because everybody can see when it breaks. But I think that they mostly see the value when it breaks. I think that it takes a rare, farsighted product team to be able to consent to giving, like, investments all along in the kinds of improvements that will pay off later on instead of just pouring all of the resources into fast fixes and features and feature, feature, feature. And then, of course, you know, you slowly grind to a halt as a team because you're just amassing surface area. You're not paying down your tech debt. And I think it's not always clear to product and design leaders how to make those investments in a way that actually benefits them instead of it just being a cost center. You know, it's just something that's always a break on them instead of actually enabling them to move faster. WILL: Yeah, yeah. And I can definitely see that being an engineer dev. I'm going to change it a little bit. And I'm going to ask, Victoria, since you're the managing director of that team, how do you feel about that question? Do you feel that's the same thing, or what's your observation of that? VICTORIA: I think Charity is, like, spot on because it does depend on the type of organization that you're working in, the hierarchy, and who gets priority over budget and things like that. And so the interesting thought for me coming from federal IT organizations into more commercial and startup organizations is that there is a little bit of a disconnect. And we started to ask our designers and developers like, "Well, have you thought much about, like, what happens when this fails?" [laughs] And especially -- CHARITY: Great question. VICTORIA: Yeah, like, when you're dealing with, like, healthcare startups or with bank startups and really thinking through all the ways it could go wrong. Is it a new pathway? Which I think is exciting for a lot of people. And I'm curious, too, Charity, like with Honeycomb, was there things that surprised you in your journey of discovery about, you know, building a company about observability and what people wanted out of this space? CHARITY: Oh my goodness. [laughs] Was anything not a surprise? I mean, [laughs] yeah, absolutely. You're a director of what team? VICTORIA: I'm a managing director of our Mission Control team. CHARITY: Oooh. VICTORIA: Which is our platform engineering, and DevOps, and SRE team. CHARITY: Now, does your platform engineering team have product managers? VICTORIA: I think it might be me. [laughs] CHARITY: Aha. VICTORIA: It might be me. And we have a team lead, and our CTO is actually our acting development director. So he's really leading the development of that project platform. CHARITY: When I was in New York the last couple of days, I just gave a talk at KubeCon about the Perils, Pitfalls, and Pratfalls of Platform Engineering, just talking about all of the ways that platform teams accidentally steer themselves into the ditch. One of the biggest mistakes that people make in that situation is not running the platform team like a product team, you know, having a sort of, like, if we build it, they will come sort of a mentality towards the platform that they're building internally for their engineers, and not doing the things like, you know, discovery or finding out like, am I really building, you know, the most important thing, you know, that people need right now? And it's like, I didn't learn those skills as an engineer. Like, in the infrastructure land, we didn't learn how to work with product people. We didn't learn how to work with designers. And I feel like the biggest piece of career advice that I give, you know, people like me now, is learn how to work with product and like a product org. I'm curious, like, what you're observing in your realm when it comes to this stuff. Like, how much like a product org do you work? VICTORIA: Oh, I agree 100%. So I've actually been interested in applying our platform project to the thoughtbot Incubator Program. [laughs] CHARITY: Mmm. VICTORIA: So they have this method for doing market strategy, and user interviews, and all of that...exactly what you're saying, like, run it like a product. So I want them to help me with it. [laughs] CHARITY: Nice. VICTORIA: Yes, because I am also a managing director, and so we're managing a team and building business. And we also have this product or this open-source project, really. It's not...we don't necessarily want to be prescriptive with how we, as thoughtbot, tell people how to build their platforms. So with every client, we do a deep dive to see how is their dev team actually working? What are the pain points? What are the things we can do based on, like, you know, this collection of tools and knowledge that we have on what's worked for past clients that makes the most sense for them? So, in that way, I think it is very customer-focused [laughs], right? And that's the motto we want to keep with. And I have been on other project teams where we just try to reproduce what worked for one client and to make that a product. And it doesn't always work [laughs] because of what you're saying. Like, you have to really...and especially, I think that just the diversity of the systems that we are building and have been built is kind of, like, breathtaking [laughs], you know. CHARITY: Yeah. [chuckles] VICTORIA: I'm sure you have some familiarity with that. CHARITY: [laughs] VICTORIA: But what did you really find in the market that worked for you right away, like, was, like, the problem that you were able to solve and start building within your business? CHARITY: We did everything all wrong. So I had had this experience at Facebook, which, you know, at Parse, you know, we had all these reliability issues because of the architecture. What we were building was just fundamentally...as soon as any customer got big, like, they would take up all the resources in this shared, you know, tenancy thing, and the whole platform would go down. And it was so frustrating. And we were working on a rewrite and everything. Like, it was professionally humiliating for me as a reliability engineer to have a platform this bad at reliability. And part of the issue was that you know, we had a million mobile apps, and it was a different app every time, different application...the iTunes Store, like, top five or something. And so the previous generation of tools and strategies like building dashboards and doing retros and being like, well, I'll make a dashboard so that I can find this problem next time immediately, like, just went out the window. Like, none of them would work because they were always about the last battle. And it was always something new. And at one point, we started getting some datasets into this tool at Facebook called Scuba. It was butt ugly. Like, it was aggressively hostile to users. But it let us do one thing really well, which was slice and dice high cardinality dimensions in near real-time. And having the ability to do that to, like, break down by user ID, which is not possible with, you know, I don't know how familiar -- I'll briefly describe high cardinality. So imagine you have a collection of 100 million users. And the highest possible cardinality would be a unique ID because, you know, social security number, very high cardinality. And something much lower cardinality would be like inches of height. And all of metrics and dashboards are oriented around low cardinality dimensions. If you have more than a couple hundred hosts, you can no longer tag your metrics with a host ID. It just falls apart. So being able to break down by, like, you know, one of a million app IDs. It took...the amount of time it took for us to identify and find these brand-new problems, it dropped like a rock, like, from hours of opening it. We never even solved a lot of the problems that we saw. We just recovered. We moved on [laughs] with our day, dropped from that to, like, seconds or minutes. Like, it wasn't even an engineering problem anymore. It was like a support problem, you know, you just go click, click, click, click, click, oh, there it is. Just follow the trail of breadcrumbs. That made such an impression on me. And when I was leaving, I was just like, I can't go back to not having something like this. I was so much less powerful as an engineer. It's just, like, it's unthinkable. So when we started Honeycomb, we were just, like, we went hands down, and we started building. We didn't want to write a database. We had to write a database because there was nothing out there that could do this. And we spent the first year or two not even really talking to customers. When we did talk to customers, I would tell our engineers to ignore their feedback [laughs] because they were all telling us they wanted better metrics. And we're like, no, we're not doing metrics. The first thing that we found we could kind of connect to real problems that people were looking for was that it was high cardinality. There were a few, not many; there were a few engineers out there Googling for high cardinality metrics. And those engineers found us and became our earliest customers because we were able to do breathtaking...from their perspective, they were like, we've been told this is impossible. We've been told that this can't be done. Things like Intercom was able to start tagging other requests with, like, app ID and customer ID. And immediately started noticing things like, oh, this database that we were just about to have to, like, spend six months sharding and extending, oh, it turns out 80% of the queries in flight to this database are all coming from one customer who is paying us $200 a month, so maybe we shouldn't [laughs] do that engineering labor. Maybe we should just, you know, throttle this guy who is only paying us 200 bucks a month. Or just all these things you can't actually see until you can use this very, very special tool. And then once you can see that... So, like, our first customers became rabid fans and vouched for us to investors, and this still blows people's minds to this day. It's an incredibly difficult thing to explain and describe to people, but once they see it on their own data, it clicks because everybody's run into this problem before, and it's really frustrating. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's super interesting and a great example to illustrate that point of just, like, not really knowing what's going on in your system. And, you know, you mentioned just, like, certainly at scale, that's when you really, really need to have [laughs] data and insight into your systems. CHARITY: Yeah. VICTORIA: But one question I get a lot is, like, at what scale do you actually need to start worrying about SRE? [laughs] Which -- CHARITY: SRE? VICTORIA: Yeah, I'll let you answer that. Yeah, site reliability or even things like...like, everything under that umbrella like observability, like, you know, putting in monitoring and tracing and all this stuff. Sometimes people are just like, well, when do I actually have to care? [laughs] CHARITY: I recognize this is, you know, coming from somebody who does this for a living, so, like, people can write it off all they want. But, like, the idea of developing without observability is just sad to me, like, from day one. This is not a tax. It's not something that slows you down or makes your lives worse. It's something that makes your lives better from day one. It helps you move more quickly, with more confidence. It helps you not make as many mistakes. It helps you... Like, most people are used to interacting with their systems, which are just like flaming hairballs under their bed. Nobody has ever understood these systems. They certainly don't understand them. And every day, they ship more code that they don't understand, create systems that they've never understood. And then an alarm goes off, and everybody just, like, braces for impact because they don't understand them. This is not the inevitable end state of computing. It doesn't have to be like this. You can have systems that are well-understood, that are tractable, that you could...it's just...it's so sad to me that people are like, oh God, when do I have to add telemetry? And I'm just like, how do you write software without telemetry? How do you have any confidence that the work you're doing is what you thought you were doing? You know, I just... And, of course, if you're waiting to tack it on later, of course, it's not going to be as useful because you're trying to add telemetry for stuff you were writing weeks, or months, or years ago. The time to add it is while you're writing it. No one is ever going to understand your software as well as you do the moment that you're writing it. That's when you know your original intent. You know what you're trying to do. You know why you're trying to do it. You know what you tried that didn't work. You know, ultimately, what the most valuable pieces of data are. Why wouldn't you leave little breadcrumbs for yourself so that future you can find them? You know, it's like...I just feel like this entire mental shift it can become just as much of a habit as like commenting your code or adding, you know, commenting in your pull request, you know. It becomes second nature, and reaching for it becomes second nature. You should have in your body a feeling of I'm not done until you've looked at your telemetry in production. That's the first moment that you can tell yourself, ah, yes, it probably does what I think it does, right? So, like, this question it makes me sad. It gets me a little worked up because I feel like it's such a symptom of people who I know what their jobs are like based on that question, and it's not as good as it could be. Their jobs are much sadder and more confusing than it could be if they had a slightly different approach to telemetry. That's the observability bit. But about SRE, very few ops engineers start companies, it seems, when I did, you know, I was one of three founding members. And the first thing I did was, of course, spin up an infrastructure and set up CI/CD and all this stuff. And I'm, like, feeling less useful than the others but, you know, doing my part. But that stuff that I spun up, we didn't have to hire an SRE for years, and when we did, it was pretty optional. And this is a system, you know, things trickle down, right? Doing things right from the beginning and having them be clear and well-understood, and efficient, we were able to do so much with so few people. You know, we were landing, you know, hundreds of thousand-dollar deals with people who thought we had hundreds of employees. We had 12 engineers for the first almost five years, just 12 engineers. But, like, almost all of the energy that they put into the world went into moving the business forward, not fighting with the system, or thrashing the system, or trying to figure out bugs, or trying to track down things that were just, like, impossible to figure out. We waste so much time as engineers by trying to add this stuff in later. So the actual answer to your question is, like, if you aren't lucky enough to have an ops co-founder, is as soon as you have real users. You know, I've made a career out of basically being the first engineer to join from infrastructure when the software engineers are starting to have real customers. Like, at Parse, they brought me in when they were about to do their alpha release. And they're like, whoa, okay, I guess we better have someone who knows how to run things. And I came in, and I spent the next, you know, year or so just cleaning up shit that they had done, which wasn't terrible. But, you know, they just didn't really know what they were doing. So I kind of had to undo everything, redo it. And just the earlier, the better, right? It will pay off. Now, that said, there is a real risk of over-engineering early. Companies they don't fail because they innovated too quickly; let's put it that way. They fail because they couldn't focus. They couldn't connect with their customers. They couldn't do all these things. And so you really do want to do just enough to get you to the next place so that you can put most of your effort into making product for your customers. But yeah, it's so much easier to set yourself up with auto-deployment so that every CI/CD run automatically deploys your code to production and just maintain as you grow. That is so easy compared to trying to take, you know, a long, slow, you know, leaky deploy process and turn it into one that could auto-deploy safely after every commit. So yeah, do it early. And then maintain is the easiest way in the world to do this stuff. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. WILL: Correct me if I'm wrong, I think you said Facebook and mobile. Do you have, not experience with mobile but do you...does Honeycomb do anything in the mobile space? Because I feel like that portion is probably the most complicated for mobile, like, dealing with iOS and Android and everything that they're asking for. So... CHARITY: We don't have mobile stuff at Honeycomb. Parse was a mobile Backend as a Service. So I went straight from doing all mobile all the time to doing no mobile at all. I also went from doing databases all the time to doing, you know...it's good career advice typically to find a niche and then stay in it, and I have not followed that advice. [laughter] I've just jumped from...as soon as I'm good at something, I start doing something else. WILL: Let me ask you this, how come you don't see more mobile SRE or help in that area? CHARITY: I think that you see lots of SREs for mobile apps, but they're on the back-end side. They're on the server side. So it's just not as visible. But even if you've got, like, a stack that's entirely serverless, you still need SRE. But I think that the model is really shifting. You know, it used to be you hired an SRE team or an ops team to carry the pager for you and to take the alerts and to, like, buffer everything, and nowadays, that's not the expectation. That's not what good companies do. You know, they set up systems for their software engineers to own their code in production. But they need help because they're not experts in this, and that's where SRE types come in. Is that your experience? WILL: Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, that is. CHARITY: Yeah, I think that's very healthy. VICTORIA: And I agree with that as well. And I'm going to take that clip of your reaction to that question about when you should start doing [laughter] observability and just play for everybody whenever someone asks [laughs] me that. I'm like, here's the answer. That's great. CHARITY: I think a good metaphor for that is like, if you're buying a house and taking out a loan, the more of a down payment you can put down upfront, the lower that your monthly payments are going to be for the rest of your...you amortize that out over the next 20-30 years. The more you can do that, the better your life is going to be because interest rates are a bitch. VICTORIA: It makes sense. And yeah, like, to your point earlier about when people actually do start to care about it is usually after something has broken in a traumatic way that can be really bad for your clients and, like, your legal [laughter] stance -- CHARITY: That's true. VICTORIA: As a company. CHARITY: Facing stuff, yeah, is where people usually start to think about it. But, like, the less visible part, and I think almost the more important part is what it does to your velocity and your ability to execute internally. When you have a good, clean system that is well-tended that, you know, where the amount of time between when you're writing the code and when the code is in production, and you're looking at...when that is short and tight, like, no more than a couple of hours, like, it's a different job than if it takes you, like, days or weeks to deploy. Your changes get bashed up with other people's. And, you know, like, you enter, like, the software development death spiral where, you know, it takes a while. So your diffs get even bigger, so code review takes even longer, so it takes even longer. And then your changes are all getting bashed up. And, you know, now you need a team to run deploys and releases. And now you need an SRE team to do the firefighting. And, like, your systems are...the bigger it gets, the more complicated it gets, the more you're spending time just waiting on each other or switching contexts. You ever, like, see an app and been like, oh, that's a cool app? I wonder...they have 800 engineers at that company. And you're just like, what the hell are they all doing? Like, seriously, how does it take that many engineers to build this admittedly nice little product? I guarantee you it's because their internal hygiene is just terrible. It takes them too long to deploy things. They've forgotten what they've written by the time it's out, so nobody ever goes and looks at it. So it's just like, it's becoming a hairball under your bed. Nobody's looking at it. It's becoming more and more mysterious to you. Like, I have a rule of thumb which there's no mathematical science behind this, just experience. But it's a rule of thumb that says that if it takes you, you know, on the order of, say, a couple of hours tops to deploy your software, if it takes you that many engineers to build and own that product, well, if your deploys take on the order of days instead of hours, it will take you twice as many people [chuckles] to build and support that product. And if it takes you weeks to deploy that product, it will take you twice as many again; if anything, that is an underestimate because it actually goes up exponentially, not linearly. But, like, we are so wasteful when it comes to people's time. It is so much easier for managers to go, uh, we're overloaded. Let's hire more people. For some reason, you can always get headcount when you can't actually get the discipline to say no to things or the people to work on internal tools to, like, shrink that gap between when you've written it and when it's live. And just the waste, it just spirals out of control, man, and it's not good. And, you know, it should be such a fun, creative, fulfilling job where you spend your day solving puzzles for money and moving the business materially forward every day. And instead, how much of our time do we just sit here, like, twiddling our thumbs and waiting for the build to finish or waiting for code review [laughs] to get turned around? Or, you know, swapping projects and, like, trying to page all that context in your brain? Like, it's absurd, and this is not that hard of a problem to fix. VICTORIA: Engineering should be fun, and it should be dangerous. That's what [laughs] I'm getting out of this -- CHARITY: It should be fun, and it should be dangerous. I love that. VICTORIA: Fun and dangerous. I like it. [laughs] And speaking of danger, I mean, maybe it's not dangerous, but what does success really look like for you at Honeycomb in the next six months or even in the next five years? CHARITY: I find it much more easier to answer what failure would look like. VICTORIA: You can answer that too if you like. [laughs] CHARITY: [laughs] What would success look like? I mean, obviously, I have no desire to ever go through another acquisition, and I don't want to go out of business. So it'd be nice not to do either of those things, which means since we've taken VC money, IPO would be nice eventually. But, like, ultimately, like, what motivates Christine and me and our entire company really is just, you know, we're engineers. We've felt this pain. We have seen that the world can be better. [laughs] We really just want to help, you know, move engineering into the current decade. I feel like there are so many teams out there who hear me talk about this stuff. And they listen wistfully, and they're like, yeah, and they roll their eyes. They're like, yeah, you work in Silicon Valley, or yeah, but you work at a startup, or yeah...they have all these reasons why they don't get nice things. We're just not good enough engineers is the one that breaks my heart the most because it's not true. Like, it has nothing to do...it has almost nothing to do with how good of an engineer you are. You have to be so much better of an engineer to deal with a giant hairball than with software that gets deployed, you know, within the hour that you can just go look at and see if it's working or not. I want this to go mainstream. I want people...I want engineers to just have a better time at work. And I want people to succeed at what they're doing. And just...the more we can bring that kind of change to more and more people, the more successful I will feel. VICTORIA: I really like that. And I think it's great. And it also makes me think I find that people who work in the DevOps space have a certain type of mentality sometimes, [laughs] like, it's about the greater community and, like, just making being at work better. And I also think it maybe makes you more willing to admit your failures [laughs] like you were earlier, right? CHARITY: Probably. VICTORIA: That's part of the culture. It's like, well, we messed up. [laughs] We broke stuff, and we're going to learn from it. CHARITY: It's healthy. I'm trying to institute a rule where at all hands when we're doing different organizations giving an update every two weeks, where we talk two-thirds about our successes and things that worked great and one-third about things that just didn't work. Like, I think we could all stand to talk about our failures a lot more. VICTORIA: Yeah, makes it a lot less scary, I think [laughs], right? CHARITY: Yeah, yeah. It democratizes the feeling, and it genuinely...it makes me happy. It's like, that didn't work, great. Now we know not to do it. Of the infinite number of things that we could try, now we know something for real. I think it's exciting. And, I don't know, I think it's funny when things fail. And I think that if we can just laugh about it together... You know, in every engineering org that I've ever worked at, out of all the teams, the ops types teams have always been the ones that are the most tightly bonded. They have this real, like, Band of Brothers type of sentiment. And I think it's because, you know, we've historically endured most of the pain. [laughs] But, like, that sense of, like, it's us against the system, that there is hilarity in failure. And, at the end of the day, we're all just monkeys, like, poking at electrical sockets is, I think...I think it's healthy. [laughs] WILL: That's really neat. I love it. This is one of my favorite questions. What advice would you give yourself if you could go back in time? CHARITY: I don't know. I think I'd just give myself a thumbs up and go; it's going to be all right. I don't know; I wouldn't... I don't think that I would try to alter the time continuum [laughs] in any way. But I had a lot of anxiety when I was younger about going to hell and all this stuff. And so I think...but anything I said to my future self, I wouldn't have believed anyway. So yeah, I respectfully decline the offer. VICTORIA: That's fair. I mean, I think about that a lot too actually, like, I sometimes think like, well, if I could go back to myself a year ago and just -- CHARITY: Yeah. I would look at me like I was stupid. [laughter] VICTORIA: That makes sense. It reminds me a little bit about what you said, though, like, doing SRE and everything upfront or the observability pieces and building it correctly in a way you can deploy fastly is like a gift to your future self. [laughs] CHARITY: Yes, it is, with a bow. Yes, exactly. VICTORIA: There you go. Well, all right. I think we are about ready to wrap up. Is there anything you would like to promote specifically? CHARITY: We just launched this really cool little thing at Honeycomb. And you won't often hear me say the words cool and AI in proximity to each other, but we just launched this really dope little thing. It's a tool for using natural language to ask questions of your telemetry. So, if you just deployed something and you want to know, like, what's slow or did anything change, you can just ask it using English, and it does a ChatGPT thing and generates the right graphs for you. It's pretty sweet. VICTORIA: That's really cool. So, if you have Honeycomb set up and working in your system and then you can just ask the little chatbot, "Hey, what's going on here?" CHARITY: Yeah. What's the slowest endpoint? And it'll just tell you, which is great because I feel like I do not think graphically at all. My brain just really doesn't. So I have never been the person who's, like, creating dashboards or graphs. My friend Ben Hartshorne works with me, and he'll make the dashboards. And then I get up in the morning, and I bookmark them. And so we're sort of symbiotic. But everyone can tweak a query, right? Once you have something that you know is, like, within spitting distance as the data you want, anyone can tweak it, but composing is really hard. So I feel like this really helps you get over that initial hurdle of, like, er, what do I break down by? What do I group by? What are the field names? You just ask it the question, and then you've got to click, click, click, and, like, get exactly what you want out of it. I think it's, like, a game changer. VICTORIA: That sounds extremely cool. And we will certainly link to it in our show notes today. Thank you so much for being with us and spending the time, Charity. CHARITY: Yeah, this was really fun. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Charity Majors.

Irina Nazarova is CEO of Evil Martians, a product development consultancy that works with startups and established businesses while creating open-source products and services. Victoria talks to Irina about getting a sense of what people are interested in learning about or what kind of problems they have, how consulting and product development complement each other, and of course, the question on everyone's minds: Is Evil Martians really evil?

Brendan Schwartz is the Co-Founder and CTO of Wistia, software that makes it easy to find, engage, and grow your audience with video. Victoria talks to Brendan about the latest updates on the platform, interesting problems he found that Wistia was able to remove and help his team get to speed and velocity, and the personal value that drives his decision-making. Wista (https://wistia.com/) Follow Wistia on Twitter (https://twitter.com/wistia) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/wistia/). Follow Brendan Schwartz on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanschwartz/), Twitter (https://twitter.com/brendan), or visit his website (https://brendanschwartz.com/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Brendan Schwartz, Co-Founder and CTO of Wistia, software that makes it easy to find, engage, and grow your audience with video. Brendan, thank you for joining us. BRENDAN: Thanks so much for having me. VICTORIA: And I believe this will be your third time, at least, on the Giant Robots Podcast, right? BRENDAN: Yes, I think this is my third appearance. Thank you for having me back. VICTORIA: Yes. BRENDAN: Is there anything I receive? What is it when you host SNL in a [crosstalk 00:39]. VICTORIA: You get a jacket. BRENDAN: A jacket, yeah. VICTORIA: Yeah, we should. BRENDAN: [laughs] VICTORIA: We should do a Giant Robots jacket or something from returned guests. I love it. So it's been great to follow along your journey here. So, for those who don't know, like, what is Wistia? And I'll say, just a precursor, that thoughtbot is a client of Wistia. So we use it ourselves. But why don't you just give us a little bit about what is the product and what makes it different? BRENDAN: Sure. And thank you so much for being a customer all these years. You kind of hit it at the top, but we help businesses of all sizes thrive with video. And so we serve mostly marketers. To dive a little bit into the history of the business, we'll be around seven...is that right? 17 years. It sounds like a long time when I say it out loud, [laughs] 17 years this June. And, for most of our history, we were, I'd say, a video-hosting platform for marketers. So if you want to put video on your website, track who's watching it, how they're watching it, and integrate that data with your other marketing systems, that was our focus and what we did. And over, I'd say, the past two years, we've brought in that focus to help businesses with all aspects of their video marketing from creating video...We recently introduced a live video product for webinars and for live events last fall. We just launched last week, which I'm very excited about native video recording in the Wistia platform. So you can record your webcam and your screen. And there's also a very simple video editor in the platform, which has been really powerful for folks to make small adjustments to content or to atomize content, take out highlights or sections of things, and to be able to publish them to their audiences. VICTORIA: Thank you for providing that context. And I'm curious if there were any, like, environmental or market forces that pushed you in that direction with the latest updates on the platform. BRENDAN: So, like I mentioned, we...in a large part, our success came (We're a relatively small team.) it came from being focused. And so for, you know, that decade or more, there were a lot of things that we had heard from the market or from customers. Like, live video was an obvious one we had been asked for a really long time. When will Wistia do live? When will Wistia do live? And, you know, our approach to that is we want to be really good and excellent at the things that we do and be focused. And I think that has served us well over the time that we've existed. And some of that came out of; I'd say, the really early days of the company where...it's funny, [laughs] we've always built Wistia, you know, sometimes we say in the shadow of YouTube, so YouTube and seeing YouTube. My co-founder was the first person who showed me YouTube in 2005, I think it was, and that was part of the inspiration to start Wistia. We are both really into video. And we saw that and having video be more accessible on the web, we knew was something that was going to change the world. There was a question...this sounds kind of dated nowadays to say, but there was a question if you were starting a business, you know, let's say, in 2006 or 2007 or '8, right? What are you going to do when Google enters your space? [laughs] It was a funny one for us to answer because we said...well, I forgot when YouTube was bought by Google. It was maybe in 2006 or something like that. Like, Google is already in our space, and it's free. So that was always an interesting challenge. And the way that we were successful there [laughs]...obviously, YouTube is at a much larger scale [laughs] and level of success than Wistia is. But to the extent we have a business at all against a very well-known and free competitor from those early days, it was being really focused on our customers and keeping the product footprint fairly small. Our business changed a lot during the pandemic. There were some obvious things, right? Video was used a lot more. So existing customers had a lot more usage. We saw an influx of customers, people who maybe were late to adopt video in their organization, and then that became a much obvious way that people could reach their audiences and grow. So that was something of a tailwind for us. And then it also forced us to kind of take a step back and look at the market in general with clear eyes. It was a funny moment, I think, for me and my co-founder because in the years leading up to that, you know, it had been like 12,13 years of doing Wistia, and it felt like we had solved a lot of problems in the product. We were still building new things, but they were for the most mature part of our audience or the most advanced marketers, which was pretty fun. But it felt like a lot of the problems had been solved. We were always, like, is the product done? Is the product complete? And when we took a step back and looked at the market, what we had found was that we had kind of just, like, got ourselves into this, you know, more mature corner of the market. But in a large part, because of COVID, so many businesses, existing and new businesses, were very new to video and were using video in new ways. And people who had been using video, their solutions to do that were super fragmented. You'd have one product that is providing...[laughs] You might have a different product you're using for internal meetings, video meetings, and that's different than a live event product, that's different than a webinar product, that's different than where you might publish your videos or host your videos, which is different than how you'd, like, analyze your performance. And as video became more important to organizations, that fragmentation of the solutions was something that was super painful. And we had heard from a lot of people who were Wistia customers and people who were not...having this as an all-in-one platform was something that they really desired, which I was also kind of, you know, we were, like, cynical about a little bit, right? Because if [laughs] you're in the world of product, it's like you can ask, you know, if you had a magic wand, what would you want? And someone says, "Oh, I want it all in one. And if you could just do everything for me, that would be so great." You know, it's hard to say, is that what people really want? And what gave us more confidence at that was, correct, is when we started digging into some of the details and hearing about existing workflows that existed that marketers have to deal with, including ourselves. We do a lot of content marketing. A lot of the really interesting things you could do in a product that is all in one it opens up new opportunities. And you could just imagine...you've hosted a webinar before. Almost always, it's the best practice that you host a webinar; after you're finished, you probably have a good marketing asset there. You should publish it to your website. You usually need to do some light editing. Maybe you're going to take off the Q&A before you publish it. And you put it on your website. And then, a while later, you're like, was this effective? Did it work? And then you have to, you know, probably have a spreadsheet somewhere. You have to go into the tool used to host the webinar to figure out who was watching it and [laughs] who registered. Did they attend? And then where's the data for how it performed on your website? How many people watched it? Did you get subscribers if you were, you know, had an email gate on that content? It's cumbersome, and it's a mess. And then, you know, the most motivated people who are well-resourced have the time to do that and analyze the performance. But then a lot of marketers who are on smaller teams they just don't have time to do that, which means a lot of content gets under-utilized or under-marketed. So a lot of evidence and motivation to change what we were doing and expand the product footprint. So that had us make a big investment in our product design and engineering teams, and we almost...we doubled them in about 18 months. And then that kind of set us on this journey that we started maybe two years ago to greatly expand what we're doing. VICTORIA: Well, that's great. So just to play that back, staying close and focused on your customers almost had you to a point of being stable with your product until COVID happened. And you have this increased demand for video that opened it up to almost have Wistia be like a startup again and create a whole new feature branch, right? BRENDAN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And that was really fun and motivating. I mean, we...that early-stage energy and not having all the answers to things where stuff is a little bit, you know, less-researched, and it's faster paced is something that I really like. That was a big shift for the company. So there was some, I don't know, I think we had some self-doubt a little bit if I'm honest, of, you know, when you've been so focused for so long. Like, can we do this? Like, will we be able to create something really good with this expanded footprint, and what resources that take? And is it going to take shifting the culture and mindset of the team, like, in ourselves? But, I don't know, that's kind of why I started the [laughs] business in the first, like, the adventure and not knowing what's next is very appealing. So that's been the fun part of it. VICTORIA: And how did you go about shifting that mindset? Or even what was the moment where you realized that you needed to go after this shift? And how did you start lobbying everyone around you to get on board? BRENDAN: A lot of those customer interviews and market interviews, we worked with an outside firm. We worked with Boston Consulting Group, who was a really great partner. We have obviously worked with folks outside. We hadn't worked with somebody; I'd say, at that scale in terms of kind of, like, tie-in with our company strategy today. But that was really helpful to have a partner, especially to push us. We got to something different than we had been doing, I mean, not dramatically so. But it was expanding what we were doing. So that was really helpful. It helped...that put some structure around it to what we had, and the whole company knew this was happening and was along for the ride. So I'd say the communication and getting to a clear strategy was something we did pretty well, and telling that story internally. I'd say where we didn't do as well [laughs] and were maybe late to make some decisions is how the culture would need to change to support that strategy. Again, like I said, we've doubled the product design and engineering teams. That is now feeling in a pretty good spot, but that was a lot of growth for us. And was, I'd say, pretty messy along the way. So the beginning, I'd say, was clear, and I think communicated well. And then I feel like in the middle it was, I don't know, a big mess where we got maybe a year in, and we're like, wow, we have this new strategy, but we really haven't executed much on it. Some of these things we're building are taking a lot longer than we thought. Our velocity doesn't feel great. Like, maybe we didn't plan some of this stuff out. Like, we've hired a lot of people, but, like, are they productive yet? And so, yeah, I think we were in a pretty [laughs] tough spot maybe last summer. We were a year into this strategic shift, but it didn't feel like we were really moving against it as much as we had hoped. VICTORIA: It makes sense that it would take some time to change strategic direction and then get to that high-velocity point that you would expect. Were there other blockers that you found you were able to remove to get the team back up to that high velocity on delivering features for clients? BRENDAN: [laughs] Well, it's funny that you say that. I wish; I mean, that is pretty obvious, I think, and obvious in retrospect. But, for some reason, when you're in this, or when we were in this, you're impatient, and you want it faster. And I think probably [laughs] having some clear expectations would have made the ride a little smoother along the way for this. I feel like I have to remind myself of this pretty frequently. I mean, Wistia is not big. We're 180 people or so but certainly bigger than...I can think back to various other sizes. Doing that strategic shift it takes time for leadership, let's say, or me to shift my mindset about some of those things. And then once you've changed your mind, you kind of... it's easy, or at least for me, to discount the time it took and all the information it took to lead to that, which needs to cascade through an organization. And so that's where some of that impatience...or just the piece you said about, yeah, it makes sense that this would take time. I was like -- VICTORIA: [laughs] [inaudible 11:56] BRENDAN: [laughter] You're like, once you've got it, you're like, wow, this is so exciting. Let's go. Let's go. And everybody is like, what are you talking about? VICTORIA: Yeah. My background has been in, like, Federal IT consulting. So you're used to kind of the pace of things being a little slower. And I think people forget that as an organization gets to any amount of size, that kind of bureaucracy tends to creep in. And, like you're saying, the information just needs to cascade down throughout everybody. I think my original question was, were there any blockers or interesting problems you found that you were able to remove and help your team get to that speed or velocity you really wanted? BRENDAN: Yeah, there were a lot. I think most of them and most of the hardest ones to move centered around cultural change, and they weren't necessarily so clear at the onset. And so, you know, one thing that kind of partway into the strategy change that became clear is, and you had said it, it's like going from, you know, basically thinking of ourselves as being in a late stage or more mature market to being in an early-stage environment. And the type of culture that, you know, succeeds in those worlds is different. One thing that we've learned along the way at Wistia that we have employed and I think been successful with is this concept that when you update your strategy as a company, you should be thoughtful and, like, make conscious updates to your culture and values. And so much is that...so you're saying culture is the way that you work. You want that to be in support of strategy. And I remember when I first heard this concept, and we were earlier into our journey. I was like, what is this, like, corporate nonsense? Culture is just this, like, intangible, you know, it's this sum of how everyone works. And it's, like, this beautiful symphony of values. [laughs] It was a more kind of, like, idealistic [laughs] view of it or more organic view of it, which I think is reasonable. But you can also be intentional about your culture. So when we wrestled with that the first time...this was many years ago when we updated. I forgot even what the strategic changes at the time. But we updated our values, and we set about making a conscious cultural change. So when we changed the strategy this time, we did the same thing. I'd say we were a little bit late doing it, like, getting to it. But we did do it. And so some of that was there were certain things...so, for instance, being so focused. We had a really lean team. And we were optimizing for things like predictability of outcomes and needing to be correct. So, for instance, if you're only going to make...let's just, like, say, on the product side. Like, if you're only going to be able to ship or do, you know, a few big improvements to the product per year, like, you're well served to kind of go slowly and make sure those have a reasonable chance of success. This was, like, the culture and the mode that we were in. That doesn't really work very well when you're in an early-stage environment where things are pretty unpredictable and things are moving really quickly. So that was an example of something that we kind of identified, and we're like, we're going to need to change this. So it was this shift from teams feeling the need to be correct and really well-researched about something to moving towards; I'd say, you need to talk to a lot of customers to build customer intuition in order to make decisions faster. But that shouldn't be the case that; for every product decision you need to make, you have to talk to 5 or 10 customers to validate that. You should be able to build an intuition to be able to make those decisions faster, and we should be more tolerant of failure. And so, we should work in a more incremental style. I mean, some of this is, like, super familiar to anybody [laughs] listening to this, right? It's like a more agile style. So work more incrementally, like, work incrementally towards great as opposed to, you know, this big thing that's going to be super polished and correct from the jump. VICTORIA: I think that's really interesting. And it's not necessarily wrong to be so thorough in your changes when you're in that steady state, and you, like, know what clients you have, and you have a pretty well-defined product. But it's interesting that it took quite a bit of effort, it sounds like, to shift back into a flow state where you're incrementally doing changes very frequently to get that new product and find those new customers that you're targeting. BRENDAN: And it continues to be. We've made a lot of progress on this. And maybe it's helpful...I don't know if it's helpful to folks listening to dive into some of the details of how we went about making those changes. It's still really difficult, right? There's a lot of things in tension. So I'd say in our previous mode, one thing we were pretty good about is when something was released, it was well-tested. It was high quality. It was, like, well-communicated. Throughout the org, people knew what was coming. Obviously, there were hiccups with that, but, like, that's the side of the spectrum that we were on there. And then in this mode where we're building faster and more incrementally, we have a lot of internal tension in terms of quality, like, is this good enough? Is this first version good enough? Are we going to make a bad first impression? And so, obviously, you do this for a...it's a set of trade-offs, right? There's no free lunch, but that is still very much we're trying to find the right balance. VICTORIA: Right. So, like, in your role as CTO, how do you make people feel comfortable failing [laughs] [inaudible 17:06] describing. BRENDAN: Some of this cultural change, I think, it's been interesting to go through because some of the properties of how we had been working are, you know, things that are part of the way I like to work. Like, it makes me uncomfortable to release something that you know the flaws in it. And that's an old kind of startup advice that I think is generally right. Like, if you release something and it doesn't make you a little bit uncomfortable, you have waited too long. [laughs] Advice is very easy and abstract. It's hard to apply. Like, there's a huge spectrum there of, like, how uncomfortable [laughs] you want to be. But I will say that that's been something that's been, yeah, hard to reconcile with. And I guess that the piece that I'm able to do in my role is, like, remind folks where we're headed, right? So the first version can be a bit rough. What matters is what happens after that. So, if we're quick to listen to customers, to fix those things, to correct that, and people can see that momentum, I think that matters for a lot. And I think that's, like, something...I've been telling that story repeatedly. Internally, I've had other leaders, and that's what we've really been leaning on is, like, we've adjusted how we're delivering customer value. And that we're going to push things out that might be a little bit more raw, but where we ultimately are going to get them to and get them to quickly is something that we're really proud of. So that has helped. And then, I'd say we still haven't figured out, which is, again, like, in these smaller increments, things can be a failure, and that's okay as long as we learn something and correct and move forward. And one thing that's been a little bit tricky to recognize, too, is there's some places where you have some experiment, and you're not actually sure if there's a market or if there's a need for a feature. So you might do something, and it really doesn't land well. And then you learn something about the market or the customer base and say, okay, that isn't what people needed. But, in a lot of places that we're building product, like, let's say, take live video, for example. [laughs] When we launch a live video product, it may be a failure. Like, the first version may not be completely right or may be a failure. But the customer need for [laughs] a live video for a webinar exists, right? So that's not the type of failure that you go, oh, I guess there's not [laughs] a market there. Or, it's like, you go back and say, okay, how do we need to improve this to make it work? I don't think we have the right language internally around that. You know, there are certain areas where it's like a failure, and then it's like, okay, we've learned not to do that again. And there's other areas where it's like, we're going to keep...[laughs] not we're going to keep failing. I mean, there are goals to succeed, right? But we're going to keep improving this until we get it to work because we know there is a market here, and there is a customer need. VICTORIA: Making a culture where it's acceptable to run experiments [chuckles] and as long as you're learning from the failures. And honestly, it sounds like you all are very connected to your customer. Like, you're talking to them regularly. You're testing out features with them and getting that feedback. And that sounds like that's really what you want to focus on and want your whole team to focus on. BRENDAN: Yes, yeah, exactly. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: You mentioned a little bit about your values. So, what would you say is, like, your most important personal value that drives your decision-making at Wistia? BRENDAN: So, like I mentioned, we've changed our values over time when we've changed strategy. And we think of our values as a decision-making framework, not as a set of things that we value. For instance, if you go on our website on wistia.com, I think about/values, about/company. It's somewhere. And you can see our values. It's not a list of everything that Wistia values or even the things that we value the most. For example, Wistia has, like, creativity is something that I value a lot that is very built into Wistia's culture that we value a lot, but it's not a listed value. It used to be at one point, and then we found that as a decision-making tool, it wasn't very helpful. [laughs] If you're faced with a decision, and you say, okay, one of the values is creativity, how do I make this more creative, right? VICTORIA: [laughs] BRENDAN: That's not usually the question you want to ask. So we have, over the years, shifted towards the values are a decision-making framework. And I'd say the one value that has stood the test of time in there is simplicity, which is not unique to Wistia, but it's something that I care a lot about personally. It's served us well as a business. It's almost always harder to get to a simple solution or answer than it is to get to a complex one. It takes a lot of failure. Sometimes there isn't a simple solution, but I think it's always worth the pursuit of trying to find one. And that's served us well in keeping a focused and easy-to-use product. I think that's fairly self-evident [laughs] why that matters to customers. And it's something that I think it's hard to do as you grow, and add, and get bigger. And it's an important feature of the product. And it's an important feature of, I don't know, companies' internal policies or the employee experience. The simpler something is, it's easier to understand. I think the more someone who works inside your company can wrap their arms around more of that context or, you know, more of the product, more of the all the ins and outs of how it is to work there, the better informed they'll be, the better faster they'll be able to make decisions, and the better work they'll be able to do. So, yeah, simplicity, minimalism, those are things I think that have served us well over the years. VICTORIA: Oh, I appreciate that. I could see how that could apply to how you're writing your code, or how you're designing a feature, or even your pricing structure. BRENDAN: Yeah, and I don't think...we definitely don't always get it right. So, you know, all of this is aspirational, but I think it's the right thing to aspire to. VICTORIA: Right. Oh, I'm familiar. [laughter] It's like that, I mean, the Marie Kondo, like, keeping it simple and organized. It's definitely aspirational [laughter] in my personal life as well. But that makes sense. Okay, I have a fun one for you. What is your favorite viral video style that you think people should do more of on Wistia? [laughs] BRENDAN: Oh, whoa. That's a hot-button one. [laughs] I think we have long said...this, like, feels like it takes me back to when we first started Wistia. The term viral and viral video was a new thing for the internet, I guess because video on the internet was still fairly new. I've always been on the side of this, like, hardworking video. And most of our customers are B2B businesses, so these are, like, marketing teams at B2B companies. I'm sure a lot of people who are listening to this have seen some very cringeworthy, you know, attempts at a viral video made by various corporations. Those usually don't land well. There are some people out there maybe that can crack this and make something that is viral through some art and science, but most everybody else cannot. VICTORIA: [laughs] BRENDAN: It's like, not something that can be kind of, like, bottled and captured. So we've always been on the side of, like, be authentic, be yourself, make these harder-working videos. But -- VICTORIA: I think that's generally good advice for businesses that was, like, maybe don't try to just do viral trends...[laughs] Like, make your own authentic content. But you personally now, like, yeah, if you were going to do whatever the latest TikTok trend is, which one would you pick? BRENDAN: You know, okay, maybe here's one. So we have always been, as I described it, on the side of, like, do not do this. It is, like, almost always going to be cringe-worthy. But do you remember...I don't know what year this is from, the Harlem Shake. It was mostly kind of a business trend, right? You'd play this track, the Harlem Shake, and have, like, when the beat dropped, it would go from normal office to everyone dancing in a costume. VICTORIA: Oh, that's fun. BRENDAN: So it was, like, a fun trend. But it was...we were and still are, I'd say, fairly, like, anti-trend. I don't know what, you know, like, contrarian when it comes to marketing trends or things like that. But then, when this happened, we were like, this will be really funny. We should set a calendar reminder to do this, like, ten years in the future. Actually, the last onsite that we had; unfortunately, it was the last day. Our head of production [laughs] who, like, we kind of had this, like, running joke of he randomly saw a news article. I think that it was the 10-year anniversary of the Harlem Shake [laughs] or whatever. He's like, oh, this would be...this is the perfect time to do this, now that it's so, so, so out of vogue. But, you know, people, like, maybe have fond memories of it. And now this is so out of fashion. I think it could be funny to do it. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, right. You don't want to do it just because it's the trend. But if it fits your personality and your business, then I think it would make sense. BRENDAN: Yeah. VICTORIA: I've heard that there might be a Wes Anderson style. [laughs] And I wanted to do a Wes Anderson goes to RailsConf video, but I'm actually meeting this -- BRENDAN: Did you do it? VICTORIA: I didn't do it. I'm not actually good enough. I think tomorrow I'm meeting with the Wistia customer success team. [laughs] I'm going to ask them to help me. BRENDAN: Oh yes, we'll help you. VICTORIA: Yes. BRENDAN: I do like...that trend is nice. That feels like a; I don't know, like, less aggressive. I've seen a lot of those, and they don't feel, I don't know, cringeworthy to me because maybe it's a nice shell in which to put some personality and content, as opposed to -- VICTORIA: Just being goofy or whatever, yeah. [laughs] BRENDAN: Yeah, I don't know exactly how to describe it. But I think that one works better. Yeah, someone at Wistia did that the other day in the office, and people enjoyed it a lot. That was more for, like, internal consumption. But those ones are nice. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I like the idea of bringing some of these editing tools to marketing teams where they can maybe not create viral videos all the time but do a lot of very highly editing and having it all in one place as well. Like you mentioned, I do run webinars, [laughs] and I'm familiar with the bouncing around between different tools to get everything to work. And there's even sometimes, like, security issues with different types of video-hosting tools. So I think there's a lot to offer for a marketing team who may not have as many resources to do the individual pieces. BRENDAN: Yeah, that's a story we've heard, yeah, from a lot of customers. And we have a lot of video resources internally because we're a video company, and we invest a lot in that. But even so, yeah, if you talk to folks on our marketing team, they'd say it's hard to get those resources, especially if you have something small that you want to do. I think it's always better if the person who has the need can easily do the thing themselves, right? More and better work gets done that way versus if it's, like, this chain of having to, like, ask other people because then you're like, should I really ask? It's like, do I want to, you know, spend social capital or budget on this thing? Will it work, will it not? But you can be, I think, faster and also experiment more when you have those tools available to you. VICTORIA: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Because I don't know if it's worth [laughs] me spending my team's time to make this Wes Anderson video, but I want to do it for fun. So we'll see if I can do it at RubyKaigi next week. BRENDAN: You should. That's great. That's, like, the perfect example of it because I feel like, yeah, well, maybe not. You might be sheepish to be like, yeah, I'm going to spend, like, ten grand with this, like, contractor to make this Wes Anderson...and to be like, what do you...what? What are you doing? VICTORIA: [laughs] That makes sense. BRENDAN: But if you do it, I think, you know, it's very likely it'll be really well-received, and you'll learn something about your audience. And then that could, like, blossom into, you know, a whole bunch of other things. I feel like that's been the case for us in our content marketing. We've long said, and this is, like, much more commonplace now, but one of the advantages of having a video producer in-house, like, is exactly that you now are employing someone full-time. And so you've, you know, like, maybe knocked off, like, the major pieces of content that a business would make with video, some of the obvious things. But then it's exactly what you're talking about that, oh, we could take a risk, and we could try this. And that's where you learn and figure out new things and things that are different than your competitors might be doing or more creative approaches. VICTORIA: Oh, That's great. You know, something I like to ask everybody who comes on the show, and it will be super interesting since you've been on a few times before, but if you could go back in time to your younger self when you first started Wistia, what advice would you give yourself? BRENDAN: Patient...One funny thing of when we started Wistia, we had really unrealistic expectations. I don't think that's [laughs] unique when starting a business when you're young. But yeah, I was 22 or 23, as was my co-founder, Chris. And we really honestly thought—this is, like, this is cringeworthy to say—that we would either be really successful and, in six months, build this great business and sell it to Facebook or now Meta, right? But that was, like, a hot company at the time. So we'd be wildly successful and sell to Facebook in six months, or we would fail in obscurity. That was, like, our honest-to-goodness business plan, which is so naive. [laughs] And here we are, you know, 17 years later and having a wonderful time. So I guess I would say, I mean, it's the most cliché advice, and you're young, and you never listen to stuff like this, but it's, like, enjoy the journey. [laughter] Things haven't always been easy. And there are, you know, hard challenges and, like, times filled with self-doubt. But even in those moments, if you have support from people around you, if you can learn to enjoy the growth and the journey, that is what keeps you motivated to do something for a long period of time. And usually, you know, people who stay focused on something for a long period of time you figure it out and can be successful. This sounds like the most generic advice as I say this out loud. VICTORIA: [laughs] BRENDAN: It really is. Enjoy the journey. [laughs] VICTORIA: Enjoy the journey. But I think that's common. And even actually talking with Chad a few weeks ago and interviewing him about thoughtbot, is his younger self would tell him to have more fun [laughs] during the whole process and really enjoy it. And I think it's also interesting that you had either the most optimistic and the most [laughs] pessimistic as options and, like, nothing in between [laughter] that you expected would happen. Which is funny because I have people ask me, like, is there still money in building apps and building new products? And it's like, yeah, like, it feels like there's these big people in the space, and they're doing everything you could think of possible. But there's still niche market that you can pursue [laughs], right? And there is still the ways that you can differentiate yourself as a product. BRENDAN: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. What advice would you give to your younger self? VICTORIA: Oh, me? I think, you know, probably something similar. Like, I feel like all of the times in my life where I've been, like, what am I going to do next and been really stressed out about it, within, like, three to six months, I found a new job, or I found something better where life improved a hundred-fold. [laughter]. So I think that's something even now I like to keep in mind is, like, if things turned down badly, like; usually, things turn around in a few months after that, [laughs] and a lot of times for the better. And that's, you know, true with, like, moving to California across the country from DC a few years ago. And yeah, a few other points like that. I think the other part I think about is who I might have invested more time in and who I would have invested less time in. And like what you were saying, like, having the support of people around you, and finding the people who really have your back and support you, and, for people who don't, maybe letting go a little sooner. [laughs] BRENDAN: Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's good advice. Yeah, I feel like both of those things are things I should probably remind myself of more frequently. [laughs] VICTORIA: Right? And have more fun, which means...there's another quote I heard that's, like, when people travel back in time, they're worried about changing a small thing that will affect the future. But people don't think that they can make small changes now that will affect their future big time. BRENDAN: Oh, that's a good one. I haven't heard that. But that's a good one. VICTORIA: Well, super cool. Just to kind of really summarize or go back to some things we mentioned already about video, just how important do you think video really is to marketing in the current landscape for businesses? BRENDAN: I mean, [laughs] I'm a very biased party, but I think it is becoming increasingly more important. I think it is the default way a lot of people want to consume information. This is a whole other tip that we didn't talk about with what's happening in the world of generative AI. And I'm sure a lot of people listening to this have voice cloning and how good those things have been getting. I think it's going to make the value of authentic connections in video much more important in the short and medium term. And there's some challenging questions about how do you tell what's real in an environment where we've gone past the uncanny valley in terms of generating, you know, an avatar of me or you with the perfect voice clone? But I think people are going to rely a lot on video to break through. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's going to be just more video world [laughs] as it goes. What does success look like for Wistia six months from now and even five years from now, the longer term? BRENDAN: I think for six months from now, so there's a lot of new areas of the product that we've added. And, in the next six months, we should be able to make pretty substantial progress to have those parts of the product have really solid adoption and repeated usage by customers. I think that's what success looks like, which we're seeing it now for our editors, probably the farthest along, that it has really good adoption among the customer base, and repeat usage, which I think is, like, a really good sign of success for a product. Live is still really early for us. You don't get a lot of shots if something goes wrong with a live event. [laughs] You know, I'd be pretty quick to look for another platform. And that's a pretty mature market where there are a lot of really strong competition. I think if we can get to a place in six months where we've got, you know, a few hundred customers using that every week or every month, we'd feel like we're on a path towards success. And the five-year version, I don't know, we recently started making three-year goals for the company a few years ago that have been pretty helpful to have as an anchoring. We have not made a five-year goal. But the thing I'm very excited about right now and what we're doing is, again, like, live is a small example. The market for live itself is much bigger than the market that traditionally Wistia has been in, and just in terms of video hosting, which itself has always grown a lot over the years. And it's itself a big market, as is video recording and creating video. So we have entered into a bunch of new markets that are all really quite large. And it's pretty humbling to be in a spot where I feel like we have a really solid base with a lot of in-depth knowledge of marketing and our customer to be able to build a really excellent product for that set. We're playing in a much bigger market than I ever thought we would. VICTORIA: It's like, success already achieved. [laughter] BRENDAN: Well, I don't know. It doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel that way. But -- [laughs] VICTORIA: Maybe next time you come on the podcast, you'll have another success story to share with us. [laughs] BRENDAN: I hope so. Yeah, I feel like that's always the case, right? It's like, yeah, there are moments where we're certainly very proud of what we've been able to achieve. But most of my time is spent [laughs] in the headspace of, you know, why are we so slow? Why is the product not good enough? Why are we, you know, like, all the stuff that's going wrong, right? Which drives you to be better and is exciting. VICTORIA: Right. That makes sense. Well, hopefully, this helps remind you all the good stuff that you all have done so far, too. BRENDAN: [laughs] VICTORIA: I'm really excited to hear about just how your values drive your decisions and then how that goes to the rest of the team and how closely you're listening to your customers, too, on the product. I think those are all just really great cultural examples and ways to build great products. So, thank you for sharing your story with me. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. And if you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Brendan Schwartz.

Agnes Malatinszky is the Founder of Senga, which takes care of back-office administrative needs for freelancers, contractors, and solopreneurs. Victoria and Will interview Agnes about the thoughtbot Incubator program and what led Agnes to choose to apply, what the demands on her time were like, how it worked, and how she feels now that she's at the end of the program. Senga (https://www.senga.app/) Follow Senga on Twitter (https://twitter.com/wistia) or join their Discord (https://discord.com/invite/53TUyaY7pS). Follow Agnes Malatinszky on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/agnes-malatinszky/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/agnesmalatin). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Agnes Malatinszky, Founder of Senga, providing back-end support for freelancers. Agnes, thank you for joining me. AGNES: Hey, it's a pleasure to be here. VICTORIA: You are the first graduate of thoughtbot's incubator program, and I'm really excited to dive into that with you today. So, before we get started in talking about the incubator program, let's just start with what fun thing do you have going on this week? AGNES: I'm based in Washington, D.C., and it's a beautiful time of year here. Early summer, late spring is gorgeous. So I'm excited because my family and I are actually headed out to Harpers Ferry this weekend for a little hike. So I'm looking forward to that. WILL: So, what is...when you say a hike, can you explain it to anybody that's outside of the D.C. area? AGNES: It's just a beautiful area in West Virginia. And we're going to take our dog and my daughter out there and get some fresh air and walk around. There's a little historic town there as well that's really interesting to explore. WILL: That sounds fun. VICTORIA: Yeah. I've been to Harpers Ferry to go floating, like, on the river. AGNES: Yes. VICTORIA: Where you float down the river in inner tubes and drink beverages. [laughter] There's also...there's rock climbing in Harpers Ferry too, which is sometimes closed for bird nesting. So it is really beautiful. AGNES: Ooh, I didn't know that. That's really cool. We'll keep an eye out for that. WILL: Yes. For anybody that doesn't know, Victoria is an amazing rock climber. I have a lot of respect for her because I don't know if I could do it. [laughter] VICTORIA: You could definitely do it. The next thoughtbot trip that we're on, we'll go rock climbing, Will. I'm confident in your skills. You could do it. Yes, I'm a big rock climber and rock-climbing advocate, so I'll talk about it forever if you let me. WILL: [laughs] VICTORIA: And I'm actually going to go rock climbing this weekend and get outside myself. And we're going up to Mammoth, California. And we're going to do a half-climbing, half-ski trip. WILL: Ooh. VICTORIA: So that's going to be fun for Memorial Day weekend, so...What about you, Will? What do you have going on fun this week? WILL: Yeah. So you said skiing. VICTORIA: Yes. So Mammoth got the most snow in the country this year. When we were there in February, they'd already had, like, 10 feet of snow. And then they got another foot of snow while we were there, so they're going to have snow through August, at least. WILL: August. Wow. Here in South Florida, the lowest we got was 50. So snow, I don't even know what you're talking about. [laughs] Yeah, so you asked what I'm going to do. Last week was a big week for us because my boys they turned four years old and one year old. And we took them to Disney and had a blast. Anybody who's been to Disney knows it's a trip. It could be a lot, especially it was very hot there too. So I think this weekend we're just going to take it easy. We're just going to relax and just enjoy it. VICTORIA: Trip of a lifetime for them, I'm sure. WILL: Yes, they loved it. VICTORIA: We have Disneyland over here in California. I have been to Disney World in Florida. But I still haven't been to Disneyland since I've been here, [laughs] which I think some people would judge me for. AGNES: You know what? I haven't been to either. I hold it against my parents forever. [laughter] Although my family is not a big fan of crowds, so I think that's why. WILL: Yes, if you're not a fan of crowds, Disney is not the place, especially now. I've heard around September is probably the best time to go. So we're going to try that out during that time too. AGNES: Ooh, protip. You heard it here first. WILL: Yes. [laughs] VICTORIA: September, Disneyland, Florida sounds very warm to me. [laughs] But yeah, we're actually going to go to Mexico with thoughtbot as a team meetup in September, which is also going to be pretty warm, I think. [laughs] But it'll be fun. Well, that's lovely. I love getting to hear a little bit about your lives before we dig into your business. Agnes, I'm super excited to hear about Senga. But maybe start with just a little bit about your background before you started. AGNES: I had been thinking about starting my own business for a while. I am an immigrant, and I come from an entrepreneurial family. Actually, my mom ran her own translation business back in Hungary, and now she's a really successful artist. So, you know, I had support from them and my husband as well to sort of try out something new. But, in my last role, I was actually Chief Operating Officer at an EdTech company that had scaled to serve over 80% of U.S. schools during the pandemic. And I was at that company for about five years and had seen the full arc of, you know, startup to a mature organization. So I was ready to take on a new challenge and to learn something new. WILL: You mentioned that your mom was an entrepreneur. And my dad was an entrepreneur, also. He had his own electric and HVAC business, and I learned so much from him. Is there anything that you can just, like, ooh, I learned this and this from my mom as a kid, looking at your mom being an entrepreneur? AGNES: I mean, she is just a, you know, fix-it person in every sense of the word. So she will fix an electric outlet. She will fix something with her business. WILL: [laughs] AGNES: She's just, like, really good at getting her hands dirty and being really scrappy. And I think that's a really important skill to have, you know, especially in a startup, and especially when you're starting out and still on your own. VICTORIA: So, what did your parents say when you told them you were going to start out on your own and build your own company? AGNES: They were really encouraging. They, you know, they keep up with all my LinkedIn posts, and they read everything I publish. So they're just very supportive and the best cheerleaders I could possibly hope for. [laughs] WILL: Did stepping out and starting your business did anything scare you in that area? AGNES: Oh my gosh, every day, something new. It's all just uncertainty and risk at this point. You know, I'm very, very early in my startup journey, so literally every question about the business I have to test. I have to find answers for. And that ranges everything from, you know, business formation to, you know, the nuts and bolts of getting the business organized and setting up financials, and the legal structure for the company, to figuring out what the product is going to be. So all this uncertainty is definitely a little bit nerve-racking. VICTORIA: And I'm wondering, what about your past experience as a Chief Operations Officer led you to want to build a product like Senga? AGNES: So being a Chief Operating Officer, I think one of the things that I really learned was that in order for a business to be really successful, and for people working at that company to be really successful, they have to have the organization's support to do what they do best. You know, what I used to tell my operations team was that you know, we were really the plumbers of the organization, making sure that everything ran smoothly behind the scenes. So, actually, that was one of the inspirations for Senga, for my current company, this idea that freelancers and independent workers don't have that support. They don't necessarily have somebody helping them with HR, and with financials, and with legal stuff, and with everything else that goes into running a business, whether you're a business of 1 or a business of 100. And that's really where I wanted to come in and, you know, support independent workers. VICTORIA: One follow-up question for Agnes on your experience in the COO role. I believe your team also had a lot of background in the freelancing world. So you had people you could ask questions to and start to understand that market. Is that right? AGNES: Yeah. Like a lot of businesses, I guess we had, you know, freelancers and contract workers that we relied on. And that's increasingly true for most companies now, I would say. There's specialized roles. There is seasonal roles that you don't necessarily hire full-time employees for but that are perfect for somebody, you know, on a temporary basis or somebody with more specialized skills. So you're exactly right; being able to tap into that network and having had experience working with freelancers and contractors was really helpful coming into the incubator and having people to tap for interviews and for input. VICTORIA: Great. And then, what is the thoughtbot incubator, which we've mentioned a few times already? It is for a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or a mobile app. It's an eight-week program that helps you get the proof points you need in order to move forward with confidence. So I'm curious, Agnes, what led you to choose the thoughtbot incubator Program as something you wanted to apply to? AGNES: I mean, it's exactly what you named. So this incubator program was really a perfect launching pad for me. It's designed for non-technical founders, like myself, to get their own dedicated team of product and dev experts to, you know, like, hone customer discovery practice, create a product strategy, run proof of concept experiments. And, you know, these were exactly the areas where I lacked skills and expertise the most. So I had actually looked at other incubators and even some venture studios before, but those models were not as good of a fit for me. I was really excited to find and to be able to join thoughtbot's incubator program. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Lift Off brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow, today. Get in touch at: thoughtbot.com/liftoff. WILL: What was the original idea behind Senga? AGNES: The idea that I came into the incubator with and then the pain points that we honed in on during the incubator, and then the long-term vision for the company are all kind of a little bit different. So I'll zoom out first to the sort of 30,000-foot view of this. So, coming into the incubator, I had been reading and researching a lot about some macro trends that I think are really interesting, and these are trends that many of us are keeping an eye on. So they're nothing revolutionary, but I think they're going to create some really interesting problems to solve in the next couple of years. So the first one is the rise of independent workers, or contractors, or freelancers. I'm kind of going to use these terms interchangeably. In recent years, the number of independent workers has shot up like crazy. There are already over 65 million independent workers in the U.S., and this number is growing by about 25% annually. And then, add to this that economic downturns tend to grow this number even more. You know, this makes up about a third of the workforce in the U.S. already, and it's growing. The second thing is that you know, the fact that early-career folks, especially Gen Z, really like the independence and autonomy that comes with this type of work. Over half of Gen Z already freelance, and the majority want to make independent work their career. In other words, they explicitly do not want to work for a company in the traditional sense. And then, third, there's kind of a mishmash of factors that I'll lump into one bullet that additionally drive up this type of work, which is that, increasingly, jobs are going to be skills-based, not degree-based, and all work, even white-collar work, will become more modular. Both tech advances and even, I think, novel organizational structures are going to make it possible for people to hyper-specialize and to plug into different organizations at different times, and, you know, even simultaneously to perform that specialized work. So take all this together, and what I'm really seeing is that the current market offerings serving freelancers and contractors are not nearly enough to meet all their needs, which is driving huge inefficiency. The types of companies that cater to this segment now or, you know, there's mature marketplaces like Upwork, and Fiverr, and some earlier-stage companies that do, you know, more workflow and back office. But I'm not seeing a comprehensive solution, and that's driving like I said, a lot of inefficiency. So, ultimately, being a freelancer is still really hard. Only about 50% of a freelancer's time is spent on billable work. And so this is what I really want to solve. VICTORIA: And did anything change through the incubator process? AGNES: So the biggest thing I found during the incubator was actually a really good entry point into this market. So startup wisdom says that you have to narrow down your product to a super tight segment that has a very strong, like, yes to your product. So, during the course of the eight weeks that I did the incubator, we did a ton of interviews, and I was really on the lookout for big spikes and pain points that repeated for a specific niche of freelancers. And that's exactly what we ended up finding. There's lots of nuance to this, but generally speaking, people new to freelancing and those that are just looking to get started need help getting started in a more manageable way and then setting up good practices that will serve them in the long run. WILL: You mentioned those practices that helps them set them up in the long run. Are you talking about mostly the operation, so, like, anything that's non-billable for a client? AGNES: Exactly, yeah. So that's kind of how I think about the work is anything that's billable and then anything that's non-billable. So that includes client management, client communication, marketing themselves, finding, you know, new work, so drumming up new business, all the back-office financials, back-office legal and admin stuff. All these other things that traditionally would be, you know, done by, you know, an operations team at a big company, but, for freelancers, they have to do it themselves. WILL: Yeah, I love that idea because my spouse she dipped her toe into the freelance world. And I felt like the operations kind of overcame everything else. And so it almost felt like the operations was taking over the job. But it's one of those things I feel like we didn't really think through of how much work that that 50% is. Like, how much work do you have to do, which are taxes, operations, speaking to clients, even to get to the things that people usually love, like the design, the software development? So I'm excited about this product. AGNES: Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of what I kept hearing again and again in interviews with all sorts of different freelancers because we went out and interviewed folks from, you know, everywhere from graphic design, to UX/UI design, to web developers, to other types of creatives, content creators. And this idea that they all get into freelancing to pursue their passion, the thing that they're uniquely good at. But then end up spending a huge chunk of their time on, you know, things that they're not really specialized in, you know, basically running their business. VICTORIA: What types of experiments did you run while you were in the incubator program with the people you mentioned you're talking to? And what were the demands on your time really like? AGNES: Oh, so the program is between 20 to 40 hours a week. I had a chance to meet with my thoughtbot team daily. We had independent work time, also breakout sessions. Like you said, a lot of that time was spent doing interviews and running all sorts of different experiments, so discovery interviews, interviews showing the prototype once we had it to interviewees. But we also set up Google Ads. We created a landing page with various calls to action. And then based on who was coming through the landing page and what they were doing on the site, we had all sorts of, you know, lessons that we could take away from that. And then another piece of it was I also learned how to basically start building out an organic community around this problem and from, you know, the community of freelancers, which is so important to have, like, for a future user base and also to be able to continue to engage with my target audience. WILL: Was there anything that surprised you about the program, or did you have any interesting findings coming out of the program? AGNES: One thing I learned through the program was that you know, there are concrete steps that you can take and a process that you can follow to build out a strong business that solves real problems for people. And that's really what this program and this incubator is focused on, is to teach you those skills to go through those early steps. You know, everything that I had read before about startups they're kind of clouded in mystery. And, you know, the big ones that end up being really successful tend to be mythologized, and founder stories tend to have these, like, big eureka moments in them, where the founder had their big idea that led to the big company. But really, at the early stage, it's pretty messy. And nevertheless, you have these steps that you can follow and processes that you can follow to build out the company. VICTORIA: And how are you feeling now at the end of the program? AGNES: I feel really excited and, frankly, more confident than I came into the program. So, you know, I'm leaving here with lots of good data, lots of good anecdotal evidence, having had dozens and dozens of conversations with my target market. So, for me, that's a really great feeling to know that my ideas they don't just exist in the abstract in my head but that we've bounced them against the universe and confirmed that folks are having the pain points that we expected and some that we did not expect. And that there is an opportunity around this. WILL: So, what could be done better about the incubator program from your perspective? AGNES: It was a great program, and that's a pretty hard question to answer. But, you know, I would selfishly say make it longer. Eight weeks is, by design, you know, a pretty short time to get started. And that's really what the program is designed to do is to get you started, to set you up with good practices and good tools. But, again, selfishly, I wish it were a little bit longer, so I can stick around and have the thoughtbot team around me. And then I just look forward to building more of a community as more founders join thoughtbot's incubator every quarter. We have a shared Slack channel that I'm going to continue hanging out in and that I've been told the new founders, as well, will be added to. So I'm looking forward to getting to meet them and to, you know, hear about their experience as well. VICTORIA: What's coming up next for you in the next six months? AGNES: So I'm talking to a couple of potential partners in the next couple of weeks, which might kind of change the roadmap slightly. But, basically, this summer and fall, I'm building out a lot of the content and the prototype for Senga. Again, continuing to talk to the freelancers I've been continuing to talk to. I'm also putting together sort of, like, an advisory committee of freelancers I've met along the way who had a strong yes sort of reaction to this product. And then my goal is that by fall or winter, I'll be able to start building out an MVP. WILL: That's exciting. AGNES: Yeah, I'm really excited. [laughs] WILL: Your dream is finally coming true, so, yeah, you have something to be excited about. [laughs] Do you have any advice for any other founders? AGNES: I guess I don't know how qualified I feel to be, you know, handing out advice as a brand-new founder. But, overall, I would encourage others out there who are interested in taking this path to, you know, really take a risk and to bet on themselves. What I've found in the last couple of months is that there are so many supportive communities, and founder groups, and entrepreneur groups. And this is kind of common advice, and everybody says this, but there's really no way you can fully prepare. You just kind of have to start doing. And at least from what I've seen, that's the secret sauce to this early stage is to keep doing and to keep going from one step to the next every day. VICTORIA: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice from when before this all started, what advice would you give yourself? AGNES: I would just encourage myself to, you know, take the plunge and maybe even go down this path sooner. You know, I feel really confident where I'm at now in terms of my career and my, you know, support networks and everything. But being able to go back and start experimenting earlier and start going down this path earlier might have even set me up better. WILL: One thing when you're starting a startup is funding. Are you looking for any funding? AGNES: Not urgently, but I'm definitely interested in talking to others working and investing in this space. So, you know, if any of your listeners are investors or entrepreneurs in a similar space, I would love to talk to them. WILL: Yeah. So, how could they reach you if they wanted to reach out to you? AGNES: You can reach me by email at hello@senga.app, or you can find us on LinkedIn at Senga. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Agnes Malatinszky.

Chad joins cohosts Victoria and Will to talk about thoughtbot's 20th birthday!

Etienne de Bruin is Founder of 7CTOs and Author of CTO Excellence in 100 Days. Victoria talks to Etienne about his book, founding 7CTOs, and keeping your technology sustainable by inspiring and motivating technology teams and people to work together and build complex systems. CTO Excellence in 100 Days (https://www.amazon.com/CTO-Excellence-100-Days-Becoming-ebook/dp/B0BV8P7K3S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=14TM3PTHA16UA&keywords=cto+excellence+in+100+days&qid=1680643461&sprefix=CTO+Excellence+in+100+Days%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1) 7CTOs (https://7ctos.com/) Follow 7CTOs on Twitter (https://twitter.com/7ctos), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/7ctos/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/7CTOs) or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/c/7ctos). Follow Etienne de Bruin on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/etdebruin/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/etdebruin). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Etienne de Bruin, Founder of 7CTOs and Author of CTO Excellence in 100 Days. Etienne, thank you for joining me. ETIENNE: My pleasure, Victoria. Thanks for having me. VICTORIA: You're welcome. I'm excited to talk with you today. I hear that you recently published your book. Is it today actually the day it came out? ETIENNE: Today is the day. The book was finished about; I would say, three months ago. So I have had great anticipation now for many, many months. And you caught me on the day, so I feel like today is my birthday. VICTORIA: [laughs] Well, I feel honored that you chose us as your first stop [laughs] in your marketing push for your book. So tell me, what in your experience led you to begin writing this? ETIENNE: Well, as you mentioned, I founded 7CTOs. I think it's about ten years ago now. I myself am a CTO type. I've had a career of basically being born to code in South Africa, which took me to Stellenbosch University in South Africa. I then joined a startup that took me to Germany and then landed in the U.S. in San Diego. And my whole journey has been a progression from individual contributor and really having great coding skills through the messiness and the intricacies of building startups, contributing to startups, and ultimately being in the role of CTO in startups. And what led me to founding 7CTOs was just a realization that I didn't have the support I needed. I felt like I was going to many meetups, which was mostly oriented towards coding and sort of different new technology stacks and frameworks, or I was going to cocktail hours with vendors who were trying to sell you something. And I really felt the need to just be with my people so that I could, in a safe, and consistent, and accountable way, share the challenges that I was experiencing. It was really from this place of founding 7CTOs, talking to hundreds of...I've probably spoken to thousands of CTOs by now. I've also placed people. I've connected people. I've seen people join companies because of connections I've made. And one of the things I saw that really bothered me was finding a great company in search of a CTO reaching out to me, talking to me about the role, me finding or through my network connecting them with a great CTO, only to find that a few months later either the relationship fizzles or even worse, the person did not succeed at the new company. And I just felt like you can have two people, a great founder, and great CTO, individually wonderful people, ostensibly well-suited to work with each other, but then make some basic mistakes that then lead towards not the desired outcome. And so I was really torn whether I should put some thoughts into a book or into some blog posts about what I think the first 100 days should look like in a fledgling relationship. And that's ultimately how the book was born. So long, long, long, long answer, Victoria. But that's where it all started. VICTORIA: No, that's great. I try to ask deep questions that get full answers back. [laughs] ETIENNE: You nailed it. VICTORIA: So I appreciate that context, yeah. So you talk about how to be successful in those first 100 days, which is critical to joining a new leadership team. What are some common mistakes that you mention that a CTO might make? And on the reverse side, what are some wins you could do early on to build trust? ETIENNE: I think a common mistake that I see is a bit of an identity issue. The CTO joins an organization and is eager to deliver value, and I think that that value is oftentimes misplaced. And what I mean by that is you hit the ground running thinking that there's all this stuff that you have to deliver in order to prove that you can make an impact, to prove that you were the right choice. And I think there's an innate desire to impress your new employer, which I don't think is limited to the role of CTO. But I think for the CTO, this looks like some technical achievements and impact, problem-solving. And I think what I like to see is the first 100 days being used to slow down a little bit, to listen, to be curious, to be open to building relationships, to have a longer view on what exactly is the system that you're joining. And I think to a fault; sometimes people will ignore the system they're joining and just start delivering value. And I think that that can often be misinterpreted or misunderstood. And then, if that is misunderstood in the first few months, then that really sets a tone for the rest of the tenure that I think puts the CTO on the back foot to deliver at a pace that maybe is unsustainable, so... VICTORIA: I love that you said staying curious because I think what you can see is a tendency for, I don't know, what I've seen; maybe you've seen this too. [chuckle] But some people have a problem that they solved in a past situation, and they think that that is now the solution to every problem that they come into in a new organization, and maybe it is. But I think dealing in complex systems, having curiosity as to why decisions were made in a certain way can lead you to a better understanding of the business if that resonates with you at all. ETIENNE: Yeah, I love that you said that. I'm a huge fan and student of complex systems. And so you just spoke my love language. VICTORIA: [laughs] ETIENNE: But that's exactly what happens. And I think that sometimes the debilitater of powerful and impactful people is the problem that you observe is maybe tainted by what you saw in the past. It might be a similar challenge, a similar problem. But what you solved in the past was part of a completely different system, different entities, different relationships. And I think that by nature because the CTO is used to solving thousands and thousands of problems, there may be a bit of complacency around what is it exactly that I'm observing is the challenge here? Why exactly was I hired? What exactly does success look like for them, for the people that hired me, for the system that I've come into? And I think the tendency is to ignore all of those questions and focus on how do I feed my own need to feel valued and start solving problems in sort of a whack-a-mole style? And I have found, even in my own experience, that there are some seriously unintended consequences that can arise from solving people's problems for them in ways that they are not used to, or they don't understand, or in some places just fully disagree with. And I think if you are not patient and take sort of 100 full days to just chill out and really enjoy learning about the system that you're joining, I think you're setting yourself up to fail or to at least be very unhappy. VICTORIA: Right, setting yourself up for some fun conflicts [laughs] to solve if you come out right out the gate. And I think maybe, too, the first 100 days the chilling out and learning, you also have time to build empathy and build trust with people so that when you do bring up suggestions, they're maybe a little more willing to listen, right? ETIENNE: Yes. And I think it's not uncommon to say, "Oh, well, I'm going to onboard myself. It's going to take some time before I show value." And I think there is a general sense that when the executive joins a company that, it's going to take some time. But I think that the temptation to jump into fiery situations is great, great in a bad way. It's a great temptation. And my book and my approach suggests that you take a step back and focus on a completely different area of the company, which is its people and its systems, and what success looks like for those people before you start jumping in and asserting your way of doing things. VICTORIA: And you mentioned a question that I was going to ask, like, what does success look like? Or say you're a CEO, and you're trying to hire a CTO; what does success look like? What kind of value do you think people should expect from someone in a CTO role? ETIENNE: Fundamentally, I think I might not be swimming in the mainstream on this topic. I don't believe that the CTO is a technical role first. I believe that the CTO is the Chief Technology Officer but is primarily a business role. And by that, I mean being a member of the C-suite, you are tasked, just like all the other members of the C-suite, to grow a company in a sustainable way. And whatever that middle letter is, is your domain and your expertise, and that's cool. But that T is surrounded by a C and an O, which in most cases has a fiduciary responsibility to the organization. But also, first and foremost, you are a first-class member of the C-suite. And so my book talks about this, but you are there to join in with the executive leadership team and to help that team towards success. And so what that looks like for me is you are wrestling on what the targets are for the company. You participate fully in that. You then allocate a budget. In other words, you allocate cost towards how you can achieve those revenue goals. And then, with that budget as CTO, you then are budgeting towards a team that you believe can get the technology implemented that will ultimately produce the revenue. So think about revenue target, technology budget, technology people. Now, these are all in the C-suite. These are just entries on a P&L. These are entries on the balance sheet. These are things that ultimately are abstracted towards company growth and company success. So with that, the CTO then turns into someone who wrestles with the tech teams, like, what are we going to implement? What ideas are consistent with our company principles and our vision? What does innovation look like? How do we inspire people to join our organization to do so? That, to me, is a fundamental role for the CTO, to inspire people to join the organization but also to be someone who implements and ideates on that journey. So I think a CTO succeeds when there is revenue growth, and that is due to budget being spent in an effective way to attract amazing people to ultimately build technology that is sustainable that then feeds into tech revenue that ultimately helps the company achieve its goals. VICTORIA: That's great. Yeah, I like that you said sustainable and the importance of people and how that relates to keeping your technology sustainable. And I'm curious if you could share more about what practices a CTO could bring to a new organization to facilitate that inspiration and to really motivate technology teams and people to work together and build these systems. ETIENNE: I think that speaks to my earlier answer, which is the investment in people and investment in understanding the systems that exist. So whether you are a CTO, that is the first time a company ever scales and grows into having that role being created, which, you know, most tech startups these days will have the role of CTO allocated and available. The important thing to understand for you as someone stepping into that role is that your teams have a construct. They have an impression. They have an image, either of your predecessor at that company or their experiences with leadership and technology at their previous companies. And I think it's extremely important to understand how you're being seen as a leader in the company and as CTO and that that vision of what people have of you is not necessarily based on your actions, your reputation, your good mornings in the mornings and your good evenings in the evenings. It really is based on people's constructs about what their experience has been of a CTO in their career, or like I said, the previous CTO, your predecessor. And so I think that it's critical as you step into this role that you take the time to bring that change to show people your ways, to show people what is important to you in a way that's not a bull in a china shop. But when you break stuff, and you come in, and you announce your presence, and you assert the new way of doing things, I think that that is met with suspicion and concern most of the time. And so I think if you can show people in the little things that you care about them, you're listening to them, you're curious about the system they're operating inside of, I think that that sets you up to then come in with the big ideas later on. But again, the emphasis being later on, past the 100 days. I talk about this in the book where introducing your tech strategy, introducing your way of doing things really comes a lot later in the 100 days than is maybe the preconceived notion. VICTORIA: And you also mentioned a few times what the CTO should be doing and a lot of great questions that you ask, like, what does success look like? How do we build this together? And finding ways to maybe generate more ideas than just what you would come up with with your team, you're more powerful. ETIENNE: Yes. And I think tag teaming on to that is a lot of times...and this is actually really a confounding thing that I've come across, which is the C-suite won't always understand what the role of CTO actually is. And teams won't always fully understand what the role of CTO is. When you talk about a CMO, or a CRO, or a CFO, I think you can generally understand what they're supposed to be doing. That isn't always clear for the CTO. And it's amazing how many times I have gotten the question, well, we knew we needed someone to help us with the tech, but we don't really know what it is that you do, or what you should be doing, or what success looks like. I think not making the assumption that people know what you're there to do is a form of showing some respect and humility. And this is why always when I'm in executive meetings, when I'm in stand-ups, or I'm in some sort of an architecture meeting, I will almost without fail I will say, "As the role of CTO, this is what I bring to the meeting," or "This is what the role of CTO would be looking for as an outcome of this conversation." Or "As the role of CTO, it is my job to ensure that our development capacity increases," to just never assume that people know what it is that you're there to do but to show them, I think, the respect and the courtesy that the role of CTO has a certain place in whatever meeting or brainstorm session is going on. VICTORIA: I think that makes sense, too, because I could see, you know, especially you mentioned with people who maybe have had past experiences with CTOs that are not the most positive. If you bring up an idea in a meeting, everyone thinks, well, that's the solution. That's what the CTO wants. And it might not. Everyone might not feel comfortable, like, without you caveating; this is why I'm bringing this up. You know, we're here to brainstorm and not for me to just tell you what to do. [laughs] ETIENNE: Yes, yes. And that's why I will often...honestly, this might be a real tip for people listening. But I will actively divorce who I am from the role that I'm in. And it enables me to have difficult conversations. It enables me to assert leadership without dominance. And that is to just say, "Hey, Sandra, in my role as CTO, this is what I am looking for in your growth or in your career path." Versus, "Hey, Sandra, I want you to..." or "I need you to..." And I think the subtle difference there is to just assure someone that you're operating in a capacity that the company expects from you versus somehow having your identity wrapped in the outcome of a conversation. And that really has been a very powerful tool for me as I integrate into new companies or as I need to navigate tricky conversations. VICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. I think hopefully that will be a great point for someone who's maybe struggling with something similar at this time. And maybe there are other common questions or themes that come up when you're talking to all these CTOs in organizations that you can share. ETIENNE: By the way, if your name is Sandra and you're listening to this conversation, I totally made up the name Sandra, so I'm not referring to you, Sandra. VICTORIA: [laughs] ETIENNE: Okay. I think an interesting thing that I've noticed is given the stage of my company, have I addressed all the things that I need to by now? And I think that is such an indication of the times that we live in. Technology is always changing. Expectations are always changing. Clearly, if you're in a technology innovation company, things are rapidly changing. It's funny because some things just stay the same, i.e., people problems and all that. But as far as technology landscape goes, I think that there is a little bit of a daunting feeling that, hey, I'm CTO in this company, but I don't know if I am where I need to be at compared to what other successful companies let's say, for instance, a series A company is doing. And as CTO, am I applying, am I showing up in the way that great CTOs of other series A companies are showing up? And so I would say that's problem number one is, am I operating at the level that I should be that my company is expecting of me? That's a real challenge that CTOs have. And I think level-setting expectations communicating where we should be at is a skill that I think is missing from a lot of people who are in that role. And I think it's because we get to the roles of CTO by being people who rapidly solve problems or speedily deliver on technology. And we start associating speed with being good at our jobs, and I really think that that is wrong; that is just wrong. When you're in an executive role, patience and spending the extra day or the extra week fighting for the extra month, I think, is actually a very important role that the CTO plays in the C-suite. And so if you have an underdeveloped sense of your own leadership style, an underdeveloped sense of your being and your essence and what it is you actually bring to the table, I think you end up just being sort of a knee-jerk tech person that just implements what other people want you to so that you could be valued for what it is that you do. Versus having that solid executive presence inside of a company that really influences and can shape the vision of the organization. VICTORIA: Yeah, I think that's super interesting how common that question is. And I wonder if it gets to sometimes creating a shared understanding between the executive team about the technology and why certain things are important or not important. I wonder if you could talk about any maybe major trends that you see executive teams trying to take advantage of that are either positive or negative. ETIENNE: The thing I've seen the most, which has had the greatest impact on, I think, executive teams, at least from my vantage point, is the desire to adopt some sort of business playbook or a business operating system. I think one of the most popular ones is the EOS model, Entrepreneurs Operating System. Gino Wickman, I think, wrote the book "Traction." And so it's caused a big trend with companies to try and streamline their operations by following the EOS model. And I do think that that might be the wrong solution to the right problem for many companies. What I mean by that is, again, we're talking about blueprints. What works for one company isn't necessarily going to work for the next company. The way you set goals, the way you set your so-called rocks, or the way you set your quarterly goals, or even working by quarter if you think about a quarter, it's such an interesting...it's really a Wall Street concept. It's three months. It's really so arbitrary. And I think that I see C-suites trying to adopt a business operating system that other companies are doing without really the necessary work being done as to, hey, what compels us through our culture, who we are, how we like to do things, what it is that works for us? And I will see some C-suites sort of spin their wheels a little bit on trying to adopt other systems when really all it takes is for them to do their own work to see what is the value stream? What does it look like inside of their company? I actually encourage, and I think I talk about this in this book; in days 60 to 70, I talk about learning to improvise. And I think this is where I look to the CTO to use their spidey senses and their logical deduction skills, their deconstruction skills to observe what is actually happening inside of the C-suite and to facilitate conversations around what is it that people need? How do we improvise on systems that we already have? Or how do we deal with missed expectations? And I do think that the CTO can play a wonderful role inside of the C-suite to facilitate those conversations. But I see inside of C-suites, the role of CTO being relegated to the IT person or just the tech person. And I think that victimization goes both ways. But the C-suite, where the CTO is actually facilitating hard conversations and able to do the decomposition of a complex system or the deconstruction of an often repeated problem or challenge that the company is experiencing, could really push the C-suite into a different track of thinking that could be super beneficial to unblocking some stodgy issues they've been facing. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And it reminds me of trying to adopt agile right when it was first becoming popular and committing so hard to a framework that you don't look at what works for your team [laughs] and works for the specific technology and tools that you have. So it makes sense to me that the CTO could bring an experience like that into applying frameworks to how the business operates. ETIENNE: Absolutely. And I think that's really when dogmatism could be your enemy. And, again, CTO joins a company, knows a certain set of skills in order to accomplish things, dogmatically tries to apply that because they are the so-called expert. And then they fail, or they're unhappy, or there's misunderstanding because we had these high expectations for you. Your interviewing was brilliant, and you said all the right things. But then, when you walked into the organization, your desire for acceptance and delivering value trumps your opportunity to be the new person and be curious about what is actually happening and what is actually going on. This should be so obvious, but when you walk into a C-suite, there are obviously existing relationships between all the different members of the C-suite. And I advocate for being a student of those relationships. Understand the history that exists between the CEO and the CFO. And these could be very great newbie conversations to have with these various members of the C-suite. "Hey, so when did you join the company? Hey, why did you join the company? Hey, wait, which company did you come from? What drew you to this company? Where did you used to live? Why did you move?" I think these are such incredible nodes in a complex relational hierarchy that can give you some very sound ideas as to, oh, well, why does the CEO constantly challenge what the COO is saying? Or why does the COO seem surpassed all the time? You, as CTO you, would do very well. I mean, as any C-suite member, any leader would do well to seek some insight and perception into what is going on for people. VICTORIA: That makes sense, right? If you're going to have influence, you have to kind of understand what are all the connections and energy that's going around in the team? ETIENNE: Absolutely. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: And maybe you can tell me more about 7CTOs and what that community can mean for someone who's growing in this role. ETIENNE: 7CTOs, like I said earlier, I founded it...I almost said 100 days ago. I founded it ten years ago. And it was as I mentioned, the genesis of the story, which is important, is I co-founded a company with two people. I wrote the first lines of code for our product. In fact, I wrote the whole version 1 myself. And as the company grew and as the company grew beyond what it was that the three of us were comfortable with, I noticed that my CEO joined an organization a peer group organization. My COO joined a peer group organization. And I just saw this transformation in them that I really admired. I was actually really envious when they were able to start taking what they've learned from their peer groups and bring them into our company to start operating more efficiently. And so, it was just natural that I would look for something for CTOs, and I couldn't find anything. I actually tried to join sort of more generic business leadership groups like Vestige or EO even. And I found that I wasn't really with my people. I wanted to feel like I was with the geeks who could talk all day about tech and development and probably watch the same movies and read the same books or inspired or laugh at the same jokes. I wanted to find my people who were facing the same problems and challenges that I was, i.e., scaling companies beyond the things that we knew, beyond the things that we were comfortable with. And I wanted to have deep conversations with those people. So I wanted to be able to share my insecurities or the politics that I was facing, or the anger that I was feeling, or not feeling seen or heard. I wanted to have deep, meaningful conversations with my true peers in a regular meeting setup that was confidential and fun. And I couldn't find that. So I decided to host a few meetups. My first meetup was actually in Old Town, San Diego, at my buddy's restaurant. And I hosted the first 10 or 12 CTOs and realized that people had a real need for that kind of interaction. And I then ended up hosting 30 different meetings in three different cities. And everywhere I went, there was the same expression that people wanted what I wanted. And then I tried to host a few more meaningful, smaller conversations and people...quite frankly, it was a disaster. I don't think it was the right container for people to respect each other and have empathy for each other's decisions. And instead, it just became a pissing contest for who made the right decision about what situation. And that's when I realized I'm not going to be able to create a meaningful, open the kimono style conversation without some rules. And those rules I put in place, i.e., you must attend the meetings. You need to have some skin in the game. And that's how 7CTOs was born. And to this day, it is a vetted peer group organization. We know we have some skin in the game. There's a membership fee. There's a time commitment. And there is a commitment to yourself to grow, to have empathy, to show up for your people, to be accountable to your people, to learn the stuff that you like to learn about and to learn the stuff that you don't want to learn about. And that is where we are today. So anybody who's listening to this who has a CTO who feels cold and lonely, come join us. VICTORIA: I appreciate the hustle, that many meetups in that many cities. I would have gotten tired. [laughs] Like, that's too much. But it seems like there was a demand, and it created something that's really meaningful for people. ETIENNE: Yes. And I was surprised. So from San Diego, I went to Austin. And then, I also started investing in Portland. And I was really amazed how we were in different cities, but each tech scene had this group of people called CTOs who they knew how to talk about technology, and they knew how to geek out of trends and all that. But they were lacking solely in team composition, budget management, C-suite executive presence, handling disagreements with the CEO, maybe knowing when to leave, how to find new positions, to carefully consider the arc of their own careers, to just manage your LinkedIn page. I mean, it was really shocking in the early 2010s how much of that was going on. I will say I was reluctant to actually start something. You know, 7CTOs is very much a membership organization filled with people. Not the most intuitive move for me. I thought I would be building more and more and more tech companies, SaaS products. I do that as an interim or a fractional CTO now, but I don't have my own startup right now in the tech space. But I love 7CTOs. We have a new CEO. Her name is Beth Rehberg. We have our head of coaching. Her name is Brittany Cotton. And we have about 200-plus companies that have enrolled their CTOs in our organization. And the journey is remarkable, truly a remarkable journey to see how people are just blossoming into the full essence and the full impact that they can have in other companies. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I wonder, if you could go back in time and give yourself some advice back when you started it knowing what you know now, what advice would you tell yourself? ETIENNE: I grossly underestimated how many White guys I would be attracting. I think about three or four years into the organization; it took someone else to bring it to my attention that there were no women. There were no underrepresented minorities in this group. And so I think from day one, I would have made that a key focal point for myself to really invest in the diversity of the group. We've come a very long way. Our numbers are growing pretty quickly in terms of women joining us and people from various communities joining us. I think that's actually becoming a hallmark of 7CTOs. And I'm very proud of it today. But, boy, back in the day, I would have made that a key prime directive. VICTORIA: Well, that's a really honest take, and I appreciate you offering that to us. And I think that's an important thing to focus on always going forward. [laughs] But I like that, and now it's become a focus for you and creating that space that, you know, hindsight is 2020. [laughs] Well, great. Is there anything else that you'd like to leave as a takeaway for our listeners? ETIENNE: No. I think, of course, I would love some book purchases. Apparently, the first couple of weeks are vital for any new book. So please go over to Amazon and get "CTO Excellence." I also have a website: ctoexcellence.com. So really, anybody who has an inclination towards leadership in the tech space, I'm super passionate about those people. The opportunity to influence in a creative and confident way is just limitless. And I want to help unearth that for fledgling leaders, existing leaders, some leaders who might feel stuck. Please reach out to me. I'd love to get you connected, either through 7CTOs or even I do some coaching as well. So I consider it my life's mission to expand this ecosystem because so many people are impacted by the way we show up. And there's a great opportunity as CTOs to be transformational in our organizations. And this is what I exist to do. VICTORIA: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And I really appreciate you sharing what you did, and I enjoyed our conversation. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Etienne de Bruin.

Michele Veldsman is Director of Neuroscience R&D at Cambridge Cognition and Founder and CEO of Playroom, an invitation-only secure social network for families. Victoria talks to Michele about the premise of Playroom and its goal of giving parents a network, a safe social community where parents are able to know and easily communicate with people associated with their children and also provide specific options to maintain boundaries when it comes to their privacy and safety, the challenges families face in raising kids and maintaining a career, and new features she wants the app to include, such as finding nearby restrooms while out and about. Playroom (https://www.playroom-app.com/) Follow Playroom on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/playroom-app/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/playroom_app). Follow Michele Veldsman on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/micheleveldsman/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Michele Veldsman, Director of Neuroscience R&D at Cambridge Cognition and Founder and CEO of playroom, an invitation-only secure social network for your family. Michele, thank you for joining me. MICHELE: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: Tell me a little bit about your journey. How did all of this get started? MICHELE: I had some kids, and I realized quite quickly that raising children is really difficult. I don't have family close by to support me. They are a couple of hours away. But trying to manage being a professional working in a fairly intense job, looking after my kids, making sure they have everything that they need and that they can socialize, and that I have a support network around me turned out to be really difficult. And so I wanted to find a way to solve that essentially. VICTORIA: Right. So you identified a problem from your own life in trying to manage your career, and you're raising your children without that close, immediate support. MICHELE: Yeah, exactly, yeah. And I realized this is a problem for a lot of people that increasingly, we don't live in these sort of small communities where we're surrounded by friends and family. Increasingly, people are moving to different cities, different countries. And that support network isn't there, but there are still all of the challenges of raising kids and trying to have a career at the same time. VICTORIA: Right. And like we were talking before we recorded, I just got back from visiting my family in Virginia, and I live in California now. So I'm familiar with some of the challenges my brother and sister-in-law are facing with childcare. Can you tell us some of the things that specifically you found really difficult in this situation? MICHELE: A lot of the time in my working life, I found there were loads and loads of tech to kind of try and make things easier to organize things. There's just a lot out there just for my working life but not much to support my family life, of which there are actually many, many more challenges because I'm kind of trying to juggle. I'm making sure that my kids their healthcare is all right, that they're getting their vaccinations on time, that I'm applying to school places on time, that I'm making sure that they're meeting other kids their age, and they're having play dates, and organizing birthday parties, all of those things. And then to try and fit that all into the wider day-to-day life, I found this really difficult. I spoke to other parents, and they also found it really difficult. In fact, I did some research with over 120 parents, and 70% of them found parenting really difficult or extremely difficult. VICTORIA: That's a lot of cognitive load on a person to manage all of these different things like school, and medical, and all the things you need to buy, [laughs] and what brands are the best. MICHELE: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. And actually, just trying to build this community around yourself is more difficult than you anticipate. So, for example, my kids went to nursery. And this is the time that they're starting to socialize and making these important connections that are really important to their development. And so as a parent, you're hearing from your three-year-old, oh, they've got this new best friend, but you have no idea how to connect to the parents of that child. And the nurseries daycare can't give out that information because, of course, there are privacy issues. So it's really difficult to make connections to other parents to be able to do these things like play dates. Organizing a birthday party, I found what you have to do is just take an invitation, give it to the nursery or the daycare center. Hopefully, they put it in the bags of the children that are friends with your kids, and then you kind of hope that they've got it and the right people are coming. You don't know who's coming to your kid's birthday party. And this just all seemed like there could be easy solutions to solve this to really build communities that center around your children. VICTORIA: And I love that the purpose of playroom is to really build that community of social support that you need for parents. You mentioned you started to do some research on what that would look like. And I'm wondering if there was anything that surprised you as a result of that research. MICHELE: Yes, I was quite surprised by...I suppose in some ways, it's reassuring actually as well that a lot of parents are going through similar struggles, struggling to connect to other families and not sort of in that way of, like, as you're...it's kind of a strange thing when you have kids because when they're very young, you can still socialize with your friends and people that you meet, maybe work colleagues. But as they get older, the focus becomes a little more around them and their friends, so making those connections are a little bit more difficult. So a lot of people struggle with that. A lot of people struggled with just keeping on top of everything. As you're saying, that cognitive load is very large; just trying to remember organizing dentist appointments, doctor's appointments, all of those things. It's a large cognitive load. And we've got enough tech now that we shouldn't have to...we should be able to put that load on to technology that can support us. VICTORIA: And so you feel like it was reassuring almost that this was a common problem [laughs], and it wasn't just you. MICHELE: Yeah, it's reassuring. It's always reassuring when you connect with other people to realize that they're going through similar things. It's not just you that's, you know, somehow not able to manage it all. But the other thing I found interesting is that there's a very large spectrum of how people feel about images and media associated with their children. So you've got a really wide spectrum of people who...some parents are very happy to share a lot about their children's lives, and their photos, and things that they're proud of on the major social media platforms. And other parents are a lot more guarded, and they don't want to share those pictures or have other people share them on platforms. So there's a massive spectrum of how people feel about the use of images and media associated with their children and also related to that of data associated with their children. VICTORIA: Yes, and I wanted to ask you about how privacy played into your planning on how you built the application. MICHELE: This was important to me because I had both that experience, and also, I started to become more aware of the darker sides of the major platforms where there's perhaps not as much protection for children and that, of course, children can't consent. So I found...having spoken to all of these parents, the spectrum was very wide on what people were willing to share, and how much they knew about how their data was used, and how much privacy they had on these platforms. I really wanted to ensure that that spectrum was reflected. In playroom, within the app, it's built so that you have control over how much privacy, how openly your images, for example, of your child, can be shared. So it can be from having any images to be shared with anybody. You know, maybe we're at a birthday party, and there are a lot of children there. So there are lots of pictures where your child is in there; some people are very happy for those to be shared. Others are not wanting that shared anywhere. So within the app, you have control over how far those sorts of pictures can be shared and with whom. But the premise of playroom is that you're essentially in a network, a community where you know everybody associated with your children. So it's not that sort of massively open network. It's very much closed and associated with just the people you know are surrounding your children. VICTORIA: That's great, and it's very relevant for me. I just got a new camera, and I offered to take pictures for my niece's birthday party last weekend. And now I have all these photos that, I'm not sure how to share them with the parents and in a way that would be secure and provide those options. So I can understand the value of what you've built here. MICHELE: Within playroom, there are bubbles. So if your child, for example, goes to nursery or daycare, they usually are in a room with children of a similar age, a playroom, that forms a bubble. So the nursery gives you a secure code that connects you to the other parents in that playroom. So that forms this bubble of parents associated with your children. So if you're taking photos at an event, so let's say you have a birthday party, you take photos. There are lots of other children in those photos. You can share those photos with the people in that bubble and in that bubble alone. And then, you can set your own personal media sharing settings so that you can make it clear to other parents that I don't want you to share this to wider social media. Watermark everything, very strongly watermarked or not downloadable. Or I'm happy for you to share it within playroom itself with other people that I know. So those settings are sort of adjustable depending on your preferences. VICTORIA: Were there any obstacles that you faced from maybe a technology or a process perspective with implementing or building the app? MICHELE: Yeah, so there are a couple of challenges. The biggest one is data and privacy. So, of course, security is a huge priority. That's going to be the center of priorities, really, so that everything is very, very secure. Parents, of course, are conscious of security surrounding their children. To be honest, as I was saying before, with sharing of media, it's quite on the spectrum, but either way, the priority is security and then privacy. So the use of data is an interesting one because a lot of traditional social networks, social media rely on the monetization of data. And again, this works on a spectrum where some parents flat out don't want any data associated with their children used or monetized in any way. Others are a lot more liberal about that. My personal view and from having spoken to a lot of parents, I think there's a good middle ground in which data is used in a responsible way for the purposes of actually benefiting parents in some way. So maybe it's the use of data rather than constant targeted ads, the use of data for the provision of services. Maybe within an area, you've got a high proportion of children there, and there needs to be better childcare provisions or play activity provisions. VICTORIA: That makes sense. So make the data more relevant in the way that it's used to provide better services to parents, right? MICHELE: Exactly, yeah, rather than that strict sort of targeted advertising. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And so you've had to adjust your plan for monetization based on the needs of your users regarding privacy and security, and we love to hear that founders really care about privacy and security at thoughtbot, so... MICHELE: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think it's really, really important, and even more so now. There's really this acknowledgment of the very large open networks that they were never really built around children, of course. I mean, why would they be? But there's been a lot of controversy recently over parents having images and their children featured in videos and things online. The child accounts run by parents have millions of followers and videos, images, and things get saved thousands of times and commented in ways that are a little uncomfortable. So there is this sort of growing feeling that these large open networks...mostly parents just don't really know. And they do...when you become a parent, you're really excited, and you're proud, and you want to share these things with the world. And you perhaps don't think about those kinds of darker sides of things. That's really coming into the forefront now. So I think a sort of more closed community-based network is important. VICTORIA: I agree. I've spent some time volunteering for organizations that work with children and privacy and human trafficking situations. And when you start to understand really how dark it can get for children, maybe too dark for this podcast, but security and privacy becomes the penultimate goal. MID-ROLL AD: thoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program. We'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. That's tbot.io/incubator. VICTORIA: You mentioned learning all of this as part of your journey on building the app. I'm curious what you brought from your background in neuroscience into the creation of the app and maybe how that played into how you built certain behaviors and things into the features. MICHELE: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So my neuroscience background, I guess, has really informed how I think about child development and brain development and the importance of the developmental stages of socializing with children. It was always at the front of my mind, and one of the things that really spurred me on to create this is really knowing that as children are developing, they are learning these really important social skills, and I just wanted to foster that as much as possible. And I thought, you know, it's actually really difficult to foster that social side of things if you don't have a community naturally around you. So I guess that's the main way that it's fed into my thinking about playroom. Other than that, I'm not too sure, actually. I think it's early stages, but I think it will probably influence some of the UX decisions, which is a big part of what I do in my day job, not the UX itself but the kind of psychology and neuroscience behind certain behaviors and how we interact with technology. VICTORIA: I love to see founders and people who find their way into technology roles that usually come from a wide variety of backgrounds. And for me, neuroscience makes a lot of sense when you're doing these studies. Because you really are even, you know, from a scientific perspective, setting up a study and experiment to see how people will react to it. And you're proving your theory of is this how people will actually relate and connect inside the application? MICHELE: Yes, absolutely, yeah. A lot of my job is data science. So I'm really excited to just get data in that I can really make decisions based on. I'm very much a kind of evidence-based person from my science background definitely. VICTORIA: Yes, excellent. And maybe you could tell me more about a decision you had to make maybe early on in the development of the app that was challenging for you or you had to put a lot of time and thought into. MICHELE: One of the things I found tricky, I suppose, is kind of being a solo founder, actually. Early on, I spent a lot of time trying to find a co-founder, and I really wanted somebody like a technical co-founder that could kind of fill the gap that I have. I don't have any formal experience in app development or anything like that, although a lot of my job involves coding and the data science side of things. Yeah, I spent a lot of time trying to find a technical co-founder and just really struggled to find somebody that had interest, and passion, and vision that would work for playroom. And so, after a while and after speaking to a couple of mentors, I decided to save that energy of trying to find somebody and just go at it alone for now. So, you know, open to finding somebody who has a similar vision for it, but yeah, that was really a difficult thing; it always is being a solo founder. But I just am really passionate about it and kind of filled the gaps with mentors and with advisors who can help me along the way. VICTORIA: That's so interesting. I think deciding about who you're going to bring into your inner circle when you're passionate about an idea sounds like a very difficult decision. MICHELE: Yeah, it is, yeah, and it's a strange sort of space as well because by no means does it need somebody who has children or has an interest there. But I think it does help with the passion because it's a really specific problem. And yeah, I just haven't found anyone yet. VICTORIA: But you have found several mentors. That sounds like it's meeting your needs in that way for now. How did you go about finding the right people to give you advice in that way? MICHELE: A combination really of just kind of stalking through LinkedIn and connecting to people, and just chatting to people, and then also through networks of other founders, and going through accelerators, things like that where I'm kind of formally introduced to mentors. They've maybe given me warm introductions, amazing women's network where people have either given warm introductions or volunteered themselves to give advice. That's been really, really great. You sort of feel like you've got a community there already. VICTORIA: That's great. And did you focus on local groups in the UK, or did you go just online virtual groups? Which was easier for you? MICHELE: A combination. So I went through an accelerator that was based in London, and so that introduced me to a few people more locally and quite a wide network, actually. I also joined a women of color network called Founderland, and they're based in Berlin. And they are a really amazing support network that has quite a wide international reach but really gives you a lot of support and guidance and is completely free and just really feels like a nice, supportive community. VICTORIA: Sounds like building a community of founders is as important as building a community for people raising children, right? [laughs] MICHELE: Yeah, definitely. [laughs] Yeah, I think so. I think any aspect of your life that is difficult benefits from a community really because, in almost all areas, there are people who have gone through something before that want to make it easy for you or who are going through something at the same time and want somebody to talk to or to support each other. VICTORIA: The most important thing we can be doing is building community. You have your full-time position, and then you also have your children that you're raising, and you are founding this company. How do you make time for yourself and for your own peace of mind in the week? [laughter] MICHELE: With great difficulty, yeah, [laughter] and a very supportive partner. It's a real struggle, and things sometimes have to be slower than I would like. I've got an amazing team of app developers who are absolutely brilliant and are usually chasing me rather than me chasing them, which is always really great. Again, a fantastic support network, a big community of other parent founders who know how difficult it all is. And then it's just like a lot of working evenings, taking a day off to focus on things. VICTORIA: Yes, we're learning a technique at thoughtbot with energy coaching and coaching people on when to take breaks and how to make sure you have time for lunch and take vacations, and all of that, which I think is important for your long-term ability to maintain your momentum. MICHELE: Yes, definitely. VICTORIA: But I've heard from many founders, you know, the support network is one of the most important things to be able to balance everything. MICHELE: Yes, it really is, yeah. I am susceptible to burnout, and I know it now. And I should know better because I know the kind of neuroscience of it as well. And so I do have to be really careful. I don't push myself too much. One of the good things actually, you know, my kids are school age now. So they have these half-term breaks. They have regular breaks from school, and then summer holidays, of course, Christmas, all of that, and that sort of forces a time for you to break and then spend really quality time with the kids. So it's really, really good in that way. VICTORIA: I appreciate kind of enforced time off. [laughs] MICHELE: Yeah, I know. [laughs] VICTORIA: And really committing to it. It makes sense, yeah. [laughter] MICHELE: I just realized that. VICTORIA: UK people are better at that than I think in the U.S. generally, but it's certainly something I strive for. Sometimes even just going to a place where there's no internet access, [laughs] so good luck trying to reach me. MICHELE: Oh yes, yeah. VICTORIA: Well, tell me more about your interaction with your developers' team. And you mentioned how wonderful they are. What is your communication patterns with them? Do you have regular meetings set up, or what is that like? MICHELE: So it's a company that I met through YC summer school program, got sort of chatting to them. They're really, really great with communication. So we communicate on Slack every day, get updates, have little videos of updates, and work through any issues, and then kind of weekly meetings. And yeah, it's been a really, really positive experience. I also have recently...on top of working full-time, and doing this, and having two kids I recently had...my husband was very ill and in hospital for two months just over Christmas. And then he came out of hospital for three days over Christmas, but then I was ill and in hospital for a month. So it's been absolutely crazy just trying to look after the kids and get work going, all of this. And they've been really consistent throughout. They've just kept everything ticking away. So that's been really, really great to have that, knowing that that continues on when I've had lots of life things going on. VICTORIA: That ability for the team to manage themselves and be proactive in their communication is something I would always advise founders to look for in a development partner. You want to see that activity on a daily basis and see the product fairly often as well. You don't want to be surprised three months later with what they built and have it not be correct, what you're looking for. MICHELE: Yeah, it's literally been back and forth of details that need ironing out. There's always a list that I can get to in my time, and there's the acknowledgment that I'm kind of working around a full-time job. VICTORIA: Well, what are you most excited about in your features roadmap that you could share with us? MICHELE: I'm so excited by all of it. I have two things that I'm really excited about. The first is the bubble, so that's just the ability to immediately connect to parents in different contexts. So I can immediately connect to all the parents in my child's nursery. It makes it really easy to organize birthday parties, play dates in other contexts as well. Say, for example, my daughter started a gymnastics course. We pay for the whole gymnastics course. She then didn't really want to do it because she didn't know anybody there. And so I think we managed about two lessons before she just really didn't want to do it anymore. And, again, I had this sort of feeling that if we were able to talk to the other parents and encourage some friendships and things, that would be really helpful for her. And just as things go along, the kids do become friends, and it's nice to be able to connect to the other parents in those contexts as well. Same thing for summer camps, any kind of setting where your kids are making new friends. And you want to get to know the parents of those friends and be able to connect to other families. And then the other feature that I'm really excited about is just being able to with one click find things nearby, toilets, cafes, supermarkets really easily. Usually, you have, one, holding a baby, pushing a pram, toddler has to suddenly use the toilet, no idea where to find one. So just being able to one click of a button find that really near me, I think, will be really, really useful. So I'm really excited about that feature and just seeing it working nicely. VICTORIA: Great. And then you'll get to use it in real life. [laughs] MICHELE: Yeah, exactly. VICTORIA: Build the change you want to see in the world. I love it. And then, if you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when this all started now that you have this hindsight, what would you tell yourself? MICHELE: I probably would tell myself to just keep at it. Maybe don't waste time trying to fill perceived gaps in your own abilities because I can learn stuff, and I can find support, and advisors, and mentors. So probably, that's what I would focus on. I spent a lot of time and energy trying to find a co-founder that would fill these gaps that I felt like I had. I'd come from an academic and a neuroscience background, less commercial experience, so I worried about needing somebody who would have that business side, needing somebody to have that technical side. But, in fact, I've got a lot of those skills from my career and from my jobs anyway. I can learn a lot. I managed to get myself a Ph.D. in neuroscience from Cambridge University, so I can probably pick things up. [laughs] And I also can fill in any gaps with really great mentors and advisors. VICTORIA: I love that. And I love that this problem that you had drove you to find the solution and to push forward even if you didn't know all the answers. MICHELE: Yeah. Exactly, yeah. VICTORIA: Wonderful. What does success look like for playroom in the next six months or five years? MICHELE: Six months is having the app in some of the nurseries that we've been working with so out with parents and making those communities. In five years, it's having hundreds of thousands of parents in communities and having them supported, connected to other parents, feeling like they have a safe space for themselves and their kids. VICTORIA: I love it. And maybe you can mention even more about what the impact that can have on a parent who might be struggling to keep it all together. MICHELE: Oh, a huge impact. So I know this personally because my husband was ill, and then I was ill. So we had three months, you know, a five-year-old and a two-year-old, each of us solo parenting and each of us with quite serious illnesses. And it was incredibly difficult. I was lucky enough that my next-door neighbor her kids are the same age and go to the same school. And actually, that's when I met them. So even though we were neighbors, we hadn't even met. But when she found out that my husband was unwell and I was looking after the kids on my own, really stepped up and helped look after my daughter, take some of the burden off of doing all the parenting on my own, plus visiting my husband in the hospital. And then reached out to a wider community within the area, like her friends that she knows from the school, and these parents really stepped up and helped me so much, like bringing food around and being that community that everybody wants and needs. And I feel like a lot of it came about sort of accidentally because I was in this really difficult situation, but it helped me so much. I can't even describe how much. And I just think if I can do that for lots of other parents, it will make a huge impact because it is really difficult for some people, for a lot of people. VICTORIA: I think the impact can't be underestimated enough. I know recently I signed up for Big Sisters and Big Brothers San Diego, so it's mentorship for children in the local county. And taking some of the training courses, they say in the U.S. alone, there are 3 million children who are just neglected or abused every year. Neglect could come from not having that social support network and not being able to look after your kids or not having other ways to connect with parents to get the support you need. So I think it's a really amazing product that you're building. MICHELE: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I completely agree that there are so many ways that it can help and actually in just bringing together communities just, sort of locally centered around your children. And yeah, as you're saying, that neglect when there are situations where people actually...parents can't cope or need help and won't reach out. It's a sort of more natural way to have a community around you. VICTORIA: Are there any other final takeaways you'd like to leave for listeners? MICHELE: Well, I guess for the parents, parenting is hard, and it can be lonely, and that's okay. Just try and reach out to people as much as you can and go join playroom. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Michele. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Michele Veldsman.

Kasha Stewart is the Director of Growth Engagement at Adobe Express. Victoria talks to Kasha about finding advocates that encourage her to chase problems, getting more women into product development and why it's essential to bring different perspectives into this area, and ways to bring connection between the end users and customers, engineering teams, and the rest of the organization to the business. Adobe Express (https://www.adobe.com/express/) Follow Adobe LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/adobe/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/AdobeExpress). Follow Kasha Stewart on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kashastewart/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido and with us today is Kasha Stewart, Director of Growth Engagement at Adobe Express. Kasha, thank you for joining us. KASHA: Well, thank you for having me. VICTORIA: Well, I thought I'd start off by asking you to tell me a little bit more about your background and how you found your way to product from starting out in film and video production. KASHA: I originally started...I have a fine arts background and did a lot of digital story narrative, post-production. Back in the day (I'm going to date myself.), you had to do...it was a very manual process of chroma keying and removing backgrounds, or refining someone's skin, or some type of background. That was where I kind of...it was my bread and butter. I really loved it. It was creative. Then in 2008, 2009, the housing market crashed, and the recession happened. And I thought, you know, I'm not a homeowner. What does it have to do with me? I'm taking these freelance jobs. I had just finished my grad program. And then all the jobs kind of disappeared. And I was thinking; here I was; I had gone to grad school. I had a really specific skill set. And then everything just poofed overnight, disappeared. And I thought, okay, well, what's more stable? Like, what could I do to secure a little bit more stability in my job, career? So I started applying for jobs in all these very different tech, like, they wanted people to be what we used to call a preditor, like, a producer and editor, someone that knew how to do this but also knew how to like FTP massive asset files and also knew how to flag something for when things were going wrong. And so I thought, okay, well, let me just apply for one of these. I have some of the skills. I tick the box on some of the requirements. And there was a job...it was actually on Craigslist. I actually didn't even know if it was a real job or if it was a scam situation, but I applied. It had a very unusual title; I think it was content distribution editor. And I thought, okay, well, this is interesting. And it was for abc.com. And this is about 2010. I applied. They called me. I thought, okay, why is ABC on Craigslist? But never mind, it was a legitimate job. And I got into what we call content distribution, so understanding content management systems. And I would be the last person that would actually process the content that would then be delivered to Hulu platforms, abc.com, many different affiliates. There were also Verizon mobile deals at this time, where the cell phone carriers had their own television networks that they tried to stand up. In that process, I started to really learn about licensing, how content is distributed, meta-tagging, and then also the architecture of a CMS. And I just for the life of me couldn't understand why this was built this way. It was a very cumbersome tool. And like clockwork, around 11:00 p.m. at night, it would crash. And if you hadn't saved your metadata on a notepad or in a spreadsheet, you're basically starting over from scratch. And I remember asking all these questions, and they were like, "Well, it's proprietary software, and it was built in Seattle." And I was like, "Yeah, but did they ever talk to the, you know..." I didn't know the terminology like end user at the time. But they never talked to any of us that were part of this small team that had this really pivotal role of publishing the content. And I remember asking all these questions. I had a supervisor at the time. And he jokingly said, "Well, you should go into product management since you love to ask questions." I didn't even know what product management was. I was like, well, I'm on a producer's track; that's my goal. I have this film and narrative background. And a role came up internally, and it was for a product specialist. I would say I needed a little bit of convincing to apply. I had some advocates in HR that saw this role and thought I would be perfect for it. And I was like, I don't know, it has all this data analytics. And what does this have to do with people and storytelling? And they were like, "We think you should apply for it." And I made the transition, which is rare sometimes in corporate and internal transitions. But I did make the transition, and I became a product specialist. And I kind of dived deep in into understanding consumer products from a front-end experience. So before, it was more from a distribution and back end. And now it was really focusing on the UX flow, the UI. What are the targets? And how do we position the content? And then, what are our consumers saying about the content? So I did open up a whole new world for me. I went ahead, and I made plenty of mistakes. There were times that I was like, I don't know if I'm for this if this is right for me. And people definitely weren't shy then. They would tell me, "You don't look like a product manager." Or "You don't have that background of CS or data and analytics person." And I totally didn't, and I never sold myself as a false representation. But what I did have was I had this really strong inclination of really understanding from the consumer perspective. I always took it back to even in my own circle. And I think I'm an early adopter. I love technology. But I also have friends that are still using Yahoo or Hotmail. And I'd be like, "Oh no, you got to try Gmail, or what about Gchat? This thing came out. You have to check it out." And I would think...back when I was building out these products, and this was, to level set, this is around the time of Web 2.0. I would think, oh, well, how would my friend in New York use this? Or how would my mom find her content? Or, how would my brother... And I think sometimes we get very seduced when you're building something, especially as a product manager, that everything is from your lens and from your perspective. And the data and then also the feedback was telling us that we weren't really hitting it where consumers were. They weren't able to find the content as easily as we hoped. And from there, I jumped into kind of entertainment streaming platforms, building out architecture, CMS, and then eventually transitioning into growth-led roles and then leadership roles later in my career. And so I've had the pleasure of working for startups like Beachbody, which was a fitness company big in the fitness space but smaller on the digital perspective, all the way to going back to Disney leading a team at Movies Anywhere. And now, I'm leading a growth team at Adobe. VICTORIA: Wow, thank you so much. That's so interesting. And we have a couple of different tracks we could get into here. One thing I want to note that I thought was interesting is when you got into your new role, what really kind of presented itself to you is that you identified a problem in the UX. Like, you kind of lateral moved, and then you found this problem, then you had advocates who pushed you to go in that direction. And so, if you have advice for people who are looking to make that transition, how do you find those advocates that encourage you to chase the problems that you find? KASHA: Oh, that's a great question. People ask me this frequently because I think on paper, it is hard. And no one's going to find you in your cubicle...or now a lot of us are working remotely in our houses. So you have to be your best cheerleader and campaign manager. I also think, like, what is it that is on your top three lists? In product, we have nice-to-have, must-haves, and then we kind of prioritize or stack rank our work backwards from that. So I ask people, "What's the most important thing for your next role?" And then those are the things that you need to either lean in and start to amplify that you're already doing and how you would make a great candidate. I think internal candidates do have an advantage because they know the culture, or they may know the players, or they may see something from a different perspective, but they know what the company's challenges are. So I would start by first talking to your manager, and you can have a great manager or not-so-great manager, but start there. Show them that, you know, I'm on this track plan, but I really want to be here. Are there things that I can do in my current role that would support that transition? Are there people that you can recommend? And sometimes, you can get traction with your manager, but if you can't, then start to search within your network. And if there's a product manager who's maybe in your org or actually would be maybe at the same leveling or someone new, start to explain to them, "Hey, I would love to set up a coffee chat, a 15-minute informational just to hear how you did it or what's your perspective?" And constantly, as you're taking notes...people usually like it when they get an opportunity to share their story or talk about themselves. And as you take notes, "Ah, I am actually looking to transition to that. Do you have any advice for me? If you had something in an open role, what would you want from that candidate?" And so you're constantly planting those seeds of like, I am this candidate, here's why. And product managers and, I think, also hiring managers, we have a room full of distractions. But if something's laid out to me in concise language and it's showing results of like, oh, well, I did this on the content management side, and I think this would be transferable, and here's why. And you don't have to be long-winded. I'm not into people writing dissertations and producing 20-page decks. I don't always have the time to read that, as lovely as it sounds. Drive in on your skills. How are they relatable or transferable? And then, what are the goals that you've been able to achieve in your current role? And what are you looking to do in your next role? And I think if you start to place yourself there...and definitely get out and start talking to people in your employee resource groups. And then also, internally, there's always, at some companies, there are HR or employee resource groups that will have at least a blog post on how to transition within the company, and if they don't, search out those people. And it's not an overnight process. I've seen people where it's been a flip of the switch, and they're on a rocket. And I've seen other people where it's taken time, but they've built those rapports with people that started to get to know them outside of their current role. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And you're also involved in many professional networks. And so, do you also get a benefit for your career growth from that? KASHA: Yes. I feel like I never stop learning. As much as there's always something new coming out, I mean like now I'm into the chatbots and AI. And I'm like, okay, here's another thing I got to learn. Let me [laughs] add this to my to-do list. So I never want to take that for granted. So I feel like the communities kind of keep me, you know, it's a temperature check of what's going on, either from a challenge perspective or what type of new technologies people are integrating into their existing platforms, and how it's actually growing or benefiting them, whether it's from a machine learning and building out recommendation engines that have saved time, and then actually gets smarter. And we're building out algorithms all the way to, you know, what would it be like to have AI enhancements on an existing platform and still help drive that high-value consumer experience? So I don't take for granted. I also recommend people that, even if you're not in product to, join product communities so that you start to hear the language and you start to see how product managers think and how hiring and leadership think. And LinkedIn is a great resource. I belong to Women in Product, Black Product Managers. There's a slew of Tech Ladies. And I'm always kind of looking. There are newsletters that I love, Lenny's Newsletter. And I'm always like, oh, that's a nice one. Let me take that away for my team, or, oh, I didn't actually see that. I didn't think about that. I didn't see that playing out with NFTs in that way; hmm, really interesting. Or that TikTok is taking over search. And now I'm like, okay, how can my product that I'm growing from an engagement standpoint also have really strong representation on TikTok in a way that's authentic and users can find us, and we can continue to engage with users that way? Start small. Find the right community that works for you. There's also Product-Led Growth, Product Alliances. There are so many of them. And I think you just start to kind of join them if you can. Some of them are free, some of them have dues. And they're really worth it. It's a value add. And you never know who's going to be posting in these Slack community groups too. You might see something where they're okay with associate level or okay with someone transitioning, or looking to help someone transition. And I often mentor and direct some of my mentees in that direction so that they don't feel like they're in the passenger seat of their career and waiting for something to happen. You have to be active in this pursuit. And you also have to be a driver in it. VICTORIA: Right. I felt that myself in my career. I felt like my network was my number one source of learning like you said. And also, when you're considering a career change, sometimes you don't even know what else is out there or what other types of jobs are out there. [laughs] I love what you said about that. And you also mentioned Women in Product and Black Women in Product. How can we promote those groups more [laughs] as we get more women in product? And why is it important to bring a different perspective into product? KASHA: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think podcasts like this, you know, letting people know. And then also, when I do a post on LinkedIn, I do the hashtags of all the groups that either I belong to, or I might tag them. One thing that I do when I do start to mentor someone I say "Be active in the community, share your voice. You're going to start to get comfortable." Product managers have it...it's not a career for the weak, I'll say that. [laughs] And you have to have an opinion, so start small and start promoting yourself in those groups or hearing what people are saying. And even if my company is hiring or someone else, another hiring manager, and it has a post, I'll say, "Oh, did you think about posting this or adding this hashtag to this? This would definitely help give you a different type of candidate and also get more traffic." And it's important to me because if I think about the world population and how we're changing, and who's showing up, you want that representation of the people that are working on it. They're going to be thinking about it from a different lens that I didn't even realize that that was an issue or oh, wow, we need to really tap into that. Or actually, we should promote this in a different way because we're going to cast a wider net, or we're going to cast a really specific net. With this demo, it can grow by 10x. Versus us thinking very generally and saying, "Well, we're happy with a 2x growth." So that's why it's important to me. I'm also always balancing, like, do I have enough representation of women? And do I have enough representation of men on the team too? I don't want to go one side too far and then I'm out of balance and I'm just hiring the same people that are like me. It is kind of challenging sometimes because I have to think about what does the team need? What is the team dynamics missing? And who is that person that can bring in or usher in that different perspective? And then also work cohesively with the existing team. And so that's a lot of balancing act that I do in my current role and really thinking about okay, well, we're serving small businesses. We're serving social entrepreneurs. Has anybody ever done that? We can be very kind of elitist in tech, especially in product of, like, well, I do it this way. I've [laughs] got Discord, and I have all the NFTs that I've ever wanted to collect. And I can hear and listen to all that, and I can geek out. But then I'm like, if I go back to my friends, they'll be, "Kasha, what are you talking about? Can you speak English to us?" [laughs] And they'll be like, "Can you please calm down?" And I'm like, "Oh, but there's this thing." And then I'm like, well, maybe I need to have someone who is not like me because they're going to be thinking of that person who really just has a simple task they're trying to solve for. They have a limited amount of time, and they also have limited patience. They're not in a place where they want to learn and go on YouTube and watch a tutorial. They're really just, you know, "Hey, I need to get this birthday card or this invitation out for my kids. And this was a free product that I saw from SEO results, and I'm here." And that's the value in finding that person and then carrying them through a journey. Me, I'm going to be picky. I'm going to probably research. I'm going to look at reviews. I'm going to look at two other competitors that I'm going to start to line up. [laughter] And then you've lost me by that point. You want to get that person, and you want to make it a frictionless experience. So I do encourage, when I'm building teams, to think about the dynamics, always going for people that are, you know, want to be there and that are really dedicated to the product but also bring a different perspective than I did. And I come from an untraditional background in tech, so I think that's probably why I'm so conscious of this and how we can make these changes. And I think, historically, or the data proves that diverse teams often excel faster and better than traditional teams. VICTORIA: Right. And teams that are diverse and are in an inclusive environment where they feel like they can bring their authentic selves. KASHA: Correct. Yeah, it's one thing to have diversity, but then it's also another, you know, the counterbalance of inclusion. And how do you set people up for success that have different backgrounds? And I have a great strong team of rock stars, as I say, but they all are different. They all need different things. They all have different kinds of needs from a coaching or leadership perspective. Some I'm more hands-on, others I'm hands-off. But as a leader, it's being perceptive of that and saying, okay, well, this person likes to run their own ship. I'm going to be here on the sidelines. And this person I'm going to be out front. I'm going to be walking with them side by side. I don't know why I have all these sports analogies because I was terrible at sports in junior high, in high school. But I always feel like I'm this coach out here with a whistle and a clipboard. And I'm telling them I'm like, okay, I'm going to set this person up. This person is going to happen here. And that's how I look at it from a growth perspective. When I'm really assessing the roadmap and the backlog and what's going to be our impact, I'm also thinking about, well, how is everybody working cohesively? And is there a way that we can have shared experiences so that that way, oh, we learned from such and such an experiment, and that's going to influence the other half of my team? Or, actually, I'm going to have them focus, or I know that we're going to have too many mobile tests at the end of Q2 because the monetization team is also trying to test something very similar. So it's a constant juggling act in my role. VICTORIA: Right. I very much relate to that. I was a competitive rock climbing coach a few years ago on top of my full-time job. KASHA: Oooh. VICTORIA: And my kids would ask me if I was also a motivational speaker [laughs] because I was always pumping people up while they're climbing. So yeah, I find it fascinating how you think about the needs of your team and your own growth from an individual contributor into a leader. And how do you coach people in your team along that path, like making that transition from being really strong in product to managing a team of product people? KASHA: Oh, that's a great question. And I love that you're like a rock climbing...I love that. I'm like, [laughs] what we call thumbs. I would just be looking; I mean, just thinking about rock climbing, my hands are probably getting sweaty right now. [laughs] And for my team, I do have people that they're getting to a senior PM level, and they're like, "What's next?" And I really like to do an assessment of, like, "Well, what do you think is next? And what is really going to help your career growth?" And some of them are like, "Well, I want to do leadership. I want to do this." And I ask, just like I ask in any product question, "What's the why behind that? Is it a financial contribution? Is it a recognition? Or is it that you are really invested in people development?" Because one thing I do like to preference, especially people that are in early or mid-level careers, is that managing a product versus managing people are two different skill sets. And I didn't even understand that when I started to get into management; I kind of fell into it. I had a leader that exited the company, and it was like, "Oh, gosh, what will we do next?" And I was just like, "I think we should still continue to pursue the roadmap [laughs] is what I would think to do first." So one of the things I do say is that your work is going to change. I don't PM, and I'm not regularly with the engineering team on a day-to-day basis. And so I will say to the team that first, at certain points, you can balance it. You'll have both where you might own still part of the portfolio, but then you have maybe one or two direct parts. But as you start to grow, you will start to transition out of the day-to-day or building individual features or initiatives. And I do ask my PMS, are they ready for that? And if they check all the boxes and say that they have a strong why, then I start off by, okay, well, let's see if our team is eligible for an internship. We're going to open up an internship this summer, and instead of this intern reporting to me, they're going to report to you. What's your onboarding plan? What's your growth strategy for this person? And then, what do you want this person to accomplish at the end of the internship? And it's a baby step for them to kind of get their feet wet on what is it like to lead someone? And then also, what are the challenges? There's always a perfect storm where things go great. But what about the times when things are not going great, and how do you communicate with that person? What are the nudges that they need to give for them to either redirect them, or what are the things that you need to do to kind of show them the happy path to success? So those are where I start. We have international teams and people onboarding. I work for a huge company, so there are more opportunities there. But then I will also say if someone wants to drive and be in a leadership role, what are the mentoring opportunities within the company? So, how would you mentor somebody? And what would be your advice? How do you set up a weekly cadence? What are your expectations of this? How should they measure success and goals? All these are things that are going to be transferable when that opportunity comes up. And then also, too, what is the right situation? Is it a mix of where I'm 50% IC and then I'm, you know, this other 40%-50% of people management? I encourage them to look at opportunities internally, even if I'm at the sacrifice of losing what I call one of my rock stars. I know that it's inevitable for people to grow. And I never want to be the person that held someone back out of jealousy, or fear, or my own insecurities. And I do have a strong network that when I post something, I get so many candidates. It's almost to the sense of like, wow, this person is greater. Wow, this person...wow, they went to Stanford, and they did this, and now they're transitioning. And I'm like, oh my gosh, they want to work with me. And so that's always very exciting. So I never want to get so trapped in the ideology that the team is only great with these people. I'm like; the team starts with me and my leadership. So I need to be able to build a team. I need to be able to grow a team. And sometimes, you might have a great talent pool, and other times you don't, and then what do you do in those? I mean, that's what leadership really is. It's not always when you have everybody applying for your job, and you have all this funding, and your P&Ls are going incredible. It's those times where they come back to you and say, "Yeah, we're not going to get that done this sprint, so you'll just have to figure it out." Or someone's resigning that you didn't see coming. And then you're like, okay, I might have to roll up my sleeves and take over their part of the roadmap just as a stopgap till I have someone. And that's the things that can make or break your leadership. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's easy when everything is going great. [laughter] KASHA: Yes. Don't we love that? [laughter] Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at: url tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: You mentioned a few times, switching more into your approach to product management about the experiments that you run. Sometimes those go great, and sometimes they don't go so great. So can you tell me about a time you ran an experiment, and the results were really different than what you expected, and what did you do from that? KASHA: Oh gosh, yeah. There are so many. I'm trying to think of what's the best example. Gosh, I'm like, do I go for mobile? No, web. [laughs] Well, I think in growth, a part of your experiment should fail because if they're not failing, that also means to me you're not taking enough risk. And you're taking things that you already know, in some ways, are like low-hanging fruit, and you're very comfortable in it. And I do encourage my team to take a big risk of how do we start to find something? We recently had something to help users on the AI side. It was a really unique feature. A user uploads an image, and AI automatically spits out templates with this user-generated content. And we were so excited. We were watching the demos, I felt like on replay, you know, as we got out the meaning. It didn't necessarily do what we thought it would do. And so then we had to take a pause, like, what happened? And one of the things that we learned from the test is that people just didn't understand what they were supposed to do. They didn't understand the process of their workflow. And they also weren't engaged with what the results came back. So I think that's one thing that, you know, I know there's a lot of chatter in the space about AI taking over and where are we going to be. And I still think we need to have that human perspective, that person that is like, hey, these search results are really not what the consumer is looking for. And yes, it solved a requirement of picture upload output, but the output is not matching what the consumer's needs were. It didn't solve their problem. And we have to constantly continue to filter and refine the algorithm. So our first output back was not great. But what we learned is that we have to have more variety of the type of output of content and that we also have to do more hand-holding. As much as we think that people are going to dive right in because it's in the press, and it's in TechCrunch and on Verge, that is not our general population. I can talk to my girlfriend; she's a doctor. And she's like, "Hey, I'm just really trying to do this for my local women physicians network." All this other stuff, she's like, "It's kind of overwhelming to me." And I didn't even see that. I was just like, "Aren't you excited that you have five options? She's like, "No, I just kind of needed the one thing with the squiggly backgrounds [laughs] and the template that I could alter." She's like, "These don't actually really speak to me." And so we had to come back and re-define the algorithm and also think about less choices for people; as much as we were like, we can randomize it; we can output more types of templates. It's really about finding the cues that the user is giving us to find that right match, and it's not something that I think we're going to get...and knowing from the test, we're not going to get on the first try. We're going to continue to test this, and that's what's going to make it better because we stress-test it. I mean, in growth, sometimes, I tell my team, like, don't get our hopes up, our hearts set into it because we can spend a lot of time in crafting the experiment and doing the 50% and then the other 50% control and variants, and then when it comes back, they're just not excited, or the consumer just didn't really gravitate or attach to it. And so then we have to stop, and I think, okay, there's a lesson here. Is it the education? Is it the guidance? Isn't the language that we use? You'd be surprised how one word can throw off someone's context. And they're turned off, or they don't want to do it. Or they like, "Oh, this is kind of cool. Oh, I didn't realize that this was a free service." Or, "Oh, I didn't realize that I could save this, and it's removing the background for me. And then now I have all these options." Growth is a hard challenge. I mean, we move so fast, which is what I love, but then we're always kind of looking at the data and having to constantly pivot and transition based off of our previous tests. [laughs] Now I'm thinking about a time when I was at Beachbody, and I was so excited because I got to do native app development on mobile platforms, and I'd never done that before. We were all excited. We had an iOS product that was really strong. And, of course, many of the people that worked in the office were all iOS users. So they weren't even thinking about Android. And we had just missed the mark as a company not really focusing on building out a great Android native app experience. And we were just kind of relying on the mobile web experience. And I remember thinking like, oh, okay, well, you have something. And then I went into a Facebook community group, and I just saw all the complaints. I saw all the people's frustrations. I saw also all these user-generated hacks. People were sharing what to do when your video stops. And I just was like, oh my gosh, we need to get on this. And so from that experience, I was able to champion and be one of the people that was like, hey, we need to help drive this. On Android, we need to really, like, this is really a problem. We could set ourselves up for success. And then we can also grow in other markets outside of the U.S. And I remember looking at the first designs, and they were all done by our creators' team, which were iOS users. So even in that situation, I think of that as more of growth internally versus putting something out user-facing to the consumer. It still was a challenge. Like, how do I influence? How do I show that this is not the right path? How do I show that, hey, we're not using material design or best practices, and this is going to hurt us in the long run? Because people that are on these platforms on Android they're used to seeing things in this manner. And we're presenting it to them in another way, and then now we're wondering why they're confused. VICTORIA: Right, right. And you mentioned a couple of different tactics to connect to that consumer voice. What other ways do you try to bring that connection between the end user and the customer, to the engineering teams, to the rest of the organization, to the business? KASHA: I'm very privileged in my organization. We have a really strong user research team as well. As we're doing our experiments, depending on how large or how much time we'll invest into an experiment, we will do a prototype kind of test in a smaller pool, let's say, before we go out to A/B test or have a controlled and variant situation. And sometimes those are the little things that I can take back, a video, or likes, comments, and send it. I don't even need to wait for it to be polished into a presentation or to a Confluence page, or even in Jira. And I can say to my counterpart, "Hey, Ganesh, do you see this? This is what I'm trying to solve for." And then it's like that aha moment. And I can say, and, you know, and engineers are always delightful. And they'll say, "Well, that's only one data point." And I'm like, "Yes, but it is a significant point. And I think if we tested this more, we will see more people are struggling with this." And how can we change that? What are their solutions? And I'm really big on collaboration. Product owns kind of the deliverables and the path and is accountable for the results. But this is a joint effort between design, between data and analytics, and engineering. So early on, I present the problem. This is the why; here's kind of our best path. But what do you think? And that to me and my career has always yielded such a higher result instead of coming from an authoritative or dictatorship of, "Well, this is the way that I've envisioned it. Here's my mocks, here are my wires, and this is why," and then kind of leaving it out to pasture or throwing it over the fence and saying, "Okay, and I need it in a week and a half." And I've been on both sides of different product teams, and different engineering teams work differently. But I have found that when you get people to buy in, to care, and then also give them that consumer value of that person is frustrated; I mean, that's what was the trigger for me when I went into the Facebook groups. I really didn't have the biggest inclination that we were having such a problem on Android. I was an iOS user. I was happy with the product; I could get my workouts in, or I could find what I was looking for. And then, when I did that, I started screenshotting. And then, I started to share this out in the Slack channel. And then there are also ways...now we have so many things where you can have bots that will record the feedback if someone says something in the App Store. That's one way to kind of bring it up to people. And then, if you don't have the funding or have an in-house user research, there's always usertesting.com. That is one way that you can start. Even if you work with design, and you guys are a small team, "Hey, I am so committed to this working. But I really would love to run a test." And then also running a survey after people test or even in product, you know, what did they think about the experience? And if you can't even get that, you can always do thumbs up, thumbs down. [laughs] You can always do is this a four-star experience or a five-star? Would you like to tell us more? I would say that sometimes we have blindness to surveys and to people asking for our opinions because you just want to get to that thing. But that small sampling of people that do respond, I think, is a way for you to kind of, if you're not sure, think about this directionally. I was leaning more towards this, but, wow, this user research came back, and I think people are going to really appreciate having this extra step. Which is something like an oxymoron for me because I'm always thinking about, well, what's the easiest path? Or what's the least path of resistance to getting the user into the experience? And then sometimes you're dropping them into a whole new what we call canvas or experience, and they have no idea what to do. VICTORIA: I liked the way you described your approach or how not to do it was like, just throw things over a wall [laughs] and say, "This is the way." KASHA: [laughs] Yes. VICTORIA: One of my questions that I like to ask people who have design and product backgrounds is just what does product design have to do with DevOps? KASHA: Yeah, so everybody has to have a starting point. And a lot of times, I was definitely a product manager when I was more in the day-to-day, and I see where...in my mind, I like to figure things out on my own. And that way, I like to come with this pretty package of, like, I thought of all the different angles. I thought of the best use case and the worst use case. And as much as that was delightful for me, I noticed that the people in engineering would kind of check a box too, and they'd be like, okay, done. And then we might get to a certain point, and they would be like, "Oh, well..." one time when I was building something for Beachbody, and, again, it was on Android, and it was the search. And I didn't think anything of it. I was just like, oh yeah, top result, then stack rank alphabetically. And then I hadn't thought about new content. And I remember thinking, like, why didn't my engineer say this? Because this is something that we do on iOS. And they said, "Well, you never asked us." [laughs] And I was there, you know, "But you work on the product too." And they're like, "Oh yeah, but you run the show. So this is what you wanted, so this is what I coded." And I just remember feeling like I had egg on my face in a meeting because now we had all this new content coming out, and the search results weren't accommodating for new content. They were accommodating for the existing metadata. And I just remember thinking like, never again. And from a DevOps perspective, I think of there's a lot of change in the industry where we also have product ops people as well. And I think of it as additional layering; it can be good and bad. I think there are positives and advantages. I think there are always growing points. And I think you have to give what is the ultimate goal? Like, if you do have a DevOps team, are they also early in the iteration? Are they part of the brainstorms? That's how I run my small pod. We have design, analytics, and engineering part of our early brainstorms. So instead of us kind of holding our ideas in a huddle, we will kind of tee up, let's say, our top five and say, "Hey, directionally, this is the direction that we're going." And we're framing it to the problems that are most important for us to solve. So we don't turn it into a hackathon where people are trying to build a spaceship in a brainstorm. That's not the goal. The goal is that, hey, we have these particular problems. This is the direction that we want to go in, and this is how we carry it through. And then, what do you guys think? And then we're in a Miro board in real-time. And we put the timer on and then get everybody's opinions. And some product groups I've seen where product team doesn't actually talk to the engineering. They just talk to the technical PM, which then translates out what the actual specs and requirements are. I haven't been part of that type of org yet in my career. I have been traditionally where it's a one-to-one ratio where if there's a product manager, there's going to be a data and analytics analyst assigned to them. There's going to be an engineer assigned to them. There's also going to be a designer. And that's been my sweet spot. And I've had a lot of gains and tractions for that. In my mind, ideas can come from anywhere. It doesn't have to start with product, but product is going to be the leader. And I don't want to think of it as a gatekeeping situation. But we're the ones that are going to drive it through with our own cross-functional teams as a partnership. So I hope that answers the question about DevOps; I'm not sure. Sometimes I can get into a little bit of a tangent [laughs] and start talking about my own experience. VICTORIA: I love talking about it because some product, people will say nothing. [laughter] KASHA: Oh really? VICTORIA: And I'm like, no, you're supposed to talk to people. Bring everybody in, and that's the whole philosophy of it. And I like that you mentioned product ops and design ops as well, thinking about how you can automate the process of what you're doing or how the information flows across your team. I'm sure with your designs and end product, and everything is more on the product ops side. KASHA: And I think having an ops, you know, it does have like one central point of contact. So if you want to think about alleviating steps, or reducing the white noise, or the friction that you may have in the organization, you have one kind of point of contact. And that person will own it, and they'll almost become a mini pod and then distribute the information, which is definitely like a gain and a positive. I just wonder on the reverse side, though, how does that engineer or how does that designer then surface, "Hey, what about this?" Or "I think this is a better way," or "Actually, we tested this two years ago, and the results weren't great." And so that's the only thing where how does that two way-communication go back and forth when you have ops? I think ops definitely gives more structure. You're definitely in a high performance. Everybody knows what their marching orders are. We know who's on first. And we also know from an accountability and an escalation process where all these pieces are working together. So I can see the benefits to it. I'm not opposed to it. I just want to make sure that the people that are actually building the product also have time to have a say and have an opinion. And whether that helps change me, I want to at least hear the feedback first. And then as a product leader and as a product manager, it's up to that person to make the decision of, like, okay, you know what? I've thought about this looking at the data, or this person raised a really significant point that I hadn't considered. I do think that we need to think about this and focus. That's the advantage for me, I feel like, of having that bottoms-up approach to development and then running your teams. VICTORIA: I think that makes sense. And you're right; I think it can be successful. But I think there's a good warning there about...and people do this with DevOps teams as well where they create a DevOps team and then put them in a silo, right? [laughs] KASHA: Yeah. VICTORIA: And that's kind of missing the point about the whole thing. It's like we want to power these people. KASHA: Yeah, everything new is old again. I remember when I didn't even talk to an engineer. And I remember...and this was early in my product when I had the product specialist. I would be at my cube writing requirements. I thought they were great. And then we switched to an agile format, and I remember going into a meeting thinking, okay, we're just going to go over the stuff that's next. And they had all these questions for me, and it terrified me. [laughter] Because it made me think, like, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about or, yeah, I didn't think about the error messaging. Oh, okay, yeah, what happens if someone loses internet connection during that session and they've started the process? Oh, I don't know. What should happen? [laughs] And so there were all these kinds of questions. But before, I would just process my requirements, put it in a Jira ticket. And then you might get some Jira comments, but there wasn't this back-and-forth in real-time. And then, I had to really step up and write my requirements better. Because at that point, I had just had like, oh, this happens in check one. This happens at step two. And then step three, the end. That was my own kind of naive perspective at the time when I was writing requirements. And I didn't know that the engineers had all these questions because we had that layer of...they didn't call it a DevOps person. I think they called it, you know, an engineering lead where he would just take the tickets, and then they were doing their own sub tickets to make it make sense. And so then, when we started to transition into more of an agile and rating things and giving value to them, I really had to change. And it helped me grow. And it was definitely uncomfortable. But it definitely pushed me into thinking, okay, someone's reading this. They're an engineer. They're not thinking about this. How can I get as clear as possible but also still think about the consumer or the persona that I'm thinking about that is trying to solve this problem? VICTORIA: That makes sense. It reminds me of one of my first jobs actually was in Washington, D.C., which you went to undergrad there. I would actually pass by Howard University on the bus every day to work. [laughs] KASHA: Oh wow. [laughs] VICTORIA: I wonder, are you familiar with BisonHacks and their annual hackathon that they have there? I know you're from the film department. But the computer science does a hackathon there every year. KASHA: I am not familiar with that specific one. But I participated; I mean, we have some at Adobe. We have our regular hackathons internally. But I would love to hear more about the one that you're describing. It sounds pretty fascinating. Do they have an ultimate goal? Are they building from an existing product, or is this something new? VICTORIA: I think it's something new. So I believe that they come together to create solutions to help improve the livelihood of the DMV community. KASHA: Oh wow. VICTORIA: So I think every year they make it a different purpose. KASHA: Okay, I got it. VICTORIA: But they interact with students and do different projects. And it's a super fun organization. So, yeah, I'll send you a link. We'll share it in the show notes as well. [laughs] KASHA: Yeah. I love it. I love it. This podcast I'm already growing [laughter] in the short time we've talked, so I love that. VICTORIA: And we're coming to the end of our time here. I have one final question before I ask you if you have any other final takeaways. [laughs] But what are you most excited about on the roadmap for Adobe Express that you have coming? KASHA: Well, I'm excited...gosh, what can I share? [laughs] I'm like, I see legal tapping me on the shoulder. [laughs] I'm excited that we are making so many improvements to really simplify the experience and that we're also diversifying our use cases of the types of people that will be coming to the platform. So when I say that, let's say we've been focused on what we call the social creator, or the small business owner, or hustler, I really want to lean more into that and expand that. We also have more of what we call our pro users coming to Adobe Express. So if you think of someone that's a professional graphic designer that may need something where they need to have a collaborator, we're enhancing that process. And then also, I'm most excited coming into 2023 is that Adobe's Express is going to be what we think of as the doorway to all the Adobe ecosystem. So whether you start with Express on a small scale and building out a template, you can really grow with this product. And whether you use it for your everyday either social needs or even in your everyday work or marketing, you can start to have people come to the platform and collaborate on it. We have so many exciting things that it's interesting because my team is focused on activation and repeat engagement, and how do those two worlds kind of marry each other? Getting the user in from having them on a first great day one experience and then carrying them through for when they return. And one thing that I'm excited for is that we've had this recent pivot, and this came out of user research. We don't have to wait for the user to leave the platform to remind them of all the great things that we can do. And I'm really excited about having machine learning capabilities on the platform; where, if your next step is this, what's the next best available action? And then how does that help enhance not only your experience of the product but then also starting to plant those seeds of you can schedule this in advance or creating this type of content once a week will drive exponentially your growth on your platform? And that, to me, is making us stronger and really looking at it not only from I want the consumer to do these series of high-value actions, but I really want to see them grow on their own personal platform level. And here's a tool that can help you do everything that you need to. And whether you're someone that posts once a week, or whether you're someone in an office that is collaborating for a marketing meeting, or if you're a professional that has something that, you know, I just really want to use a template. I have an aesthetic. I know how to use Photoshop. I know how to use Illustrator. But let me put this in Express. I can send it to the client. They can make comments, and then they can also feel like they're part of the creative process. That makes me happy because I was this fine arts major. It feels like 100 years ago. [laughs] And I remember thinking like, oh wow, I love these products. They're expensive, or saving up for them. And then now there are so many different plans. There are so many different ways. And I would have loved an opportunity to have a free product that allowed me to just start to understand my own type of style and capabilities without having this feeling that I have to be a designer and that everything has to be perfect. So I'm excited for that. We have so much growth planned, new, exciting ways on the platform. And, also, you'll see some new looks. I can't share too much more than that. [laughter] So I hope the little bit of tidbit doesn't get me in trouble. But sometimes you got to break some rules. You got to break some eggs to make an omelet. [laughter] VICTORIA: Any other final thoughts for our listeners today? KASHA: I would love for, you know, to give me feedback. I always love doing these. I'm active on LinkedIn. You can find me at Kasha Stewart. Shoot me a note. I get a healthy amount of mail, but I promise I will reply back to you if you have questions and what your biggest challenges are. Check out Adobe Express. It's free, by the way. And continue to, you know; I just remember being this, like, early in my career and having these questions, and at different points, I was afraid to ask questions because I was like, I don't want to sound silly. Or maybe I'm not understanding that, or, you know, maybe I should have been a CS major. And I say to people now, like, you have to have a starting point. You never know what is next on the horizon. Or that everybody had been thinking about that and they were just waiting for the person to raise their hand. That's one of the things that I always want to encourage people and to check out these products, communities. And thank you to this podcast for allowing me to share my journey and my story. It's always a pleasure. I learned something, and I'm like, oh yeah, I did actually do that. But that was a while ago that; I might forget. So it's good. It's like having my own little mini retro. So I thank you for inviting me here and to, you know, share my journey. VICTORIA: Well, thank you. That's a very powerful message, and I appreciate you coming on today to share it with us. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Kasha Stewart.

Lauren Makler is Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience. Victoria talks to Lauren about tackling the access issues around egg freezing and donation and hoping to bring down the cost, leaving a company like Uber and starting her own business, and figuring out a go-to-market approach and what that strategy should look like. Cofertility (https://www.cofertility.com/) Follow Cofertility on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/cofertility/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/cofertility). Follow Lauren Makler on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmakler/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/laurenmakler/), or Twitter (https://twitter.com/laurenmakler). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Makler, Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience. Lauren, thank you for joining me. LAUREN: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited for this. VICTORIA: Me too. I want to hear all about Cofertility. Can you tell me a little bit more about the platform that you built? LAUREN: Absolutely. Cofertility is really like you said; we're a fertility ecosystem. And at our core, we're enabling women to freeze their eggs for free when they donate half of the eggs retrieved to a family that can't otherwise conceive, providing support and education for everyone involved along the way. You know, we're serving two very different audiences. One side of our business, our Freeze by Co, is targeted at women between the ages of 21 and 40 who might be interested in preserving their fertility. We know that really the best time to freeze your eggs, unfortunately, is when you can least afford it. And so we've really taken on this access issue and hoping to bring down the cost on that front. And then our Family by Co business is for intended parents who need the help of an egg donor to have a child, so that could be anyone from people who struggle with infertility, or gay dads, cancer survivors, et cetera. There are a lot of people that really rely on third-party reproduction to have a family, and we think it's time to really move that industry forward, and we're doing that in a lot of ways. So that's at a high level; happy to dig in more on any part of that. But we launched in October, and things have been going well ever since. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah, I want to ask you more about...you mentioned the problem that you identified with when people who are most ready to freeze their eggs probably can't afford it. [laughs] But how did you really identify that problem and think I should start a company around this? LAUREN: Yeah, so it's a two-part problem. I think we see a big problem on the egg-freezing side, which is truly cost. I think we know that women are starting families later than ever. For the first time in U.S. history, the average age of women giving birth now is 30, which is the highest on record. And the experimental label from egg freezing was removed in 2012, and so it's become much more mainstream for women to do it. However, the cost to do it in the U.S. is between; I want to say, $12,000-20,000 to do it, plus yearly storage fees. And there are some women who have access to doing it through their large employer, but for the majority of people, that's just not the case. And so, for women who are really trying to prioritize their career or their education or maybe haven't found a partner yet, egg freezing can be a great option. And certainly, it's not an insurance policy by any means, and it's not a guarantee. But studies show that if you experience infertility later in life and you did freeze your eggs, you're much more likely to have a child than not. And so we see it as a great backup option. But again, cost is just truly a huge problem. And then, on the egg donation side, there are tons of families that rely on egg donation to have a baby. And I'm someone...I should mention, too, personally, years ago...I'll make a very long story very short here. Years ago, I was diagnosed with an incredibly rare abdominal disease that put into question my ability to have a biological child someday. And so, I started to look into what my options might be, and egg donation came up. And when I looked at what was happening in the space, I just couldn't believe how antiquated it was. And truly, for lack of a better word, how icky it felt. It seemed really transactional and impersonal for everyone involved. And what I realized was that it was really rooted in the stigma around egg donation that comes from cash compensation for donors. So traditionally, a donor is paid anywhere from $8,000 to $100,000 for her eggs, depending on, unfortunately, her pedigree or sometimes her heritage. Something that might be, you know, a donor that's harder to find might require more compensation the way it's done today. And so we actually saw that many women who are interested in helping another family grow through egg donation can actually be off-put by this idea of cash for their eggs. It's like, ooh, am I selling my eggs, or how do I feel about that? And it actually turns people off when it might otherwise have been something they wanted to explore. It also, I think, leaves intended parents without options that they need and really hurts the LGBTQ community that relies on egg donation for family planning. So there's a lot there. And we felt that that was something that if we remove cash compensation, perhaps it's something that really opens up the pie of women that are open to and interested in egg donation. And it also might really honor the donor-conceived person on the end of it more than what's happening today. Studies have come out that show that donor-conceived adults find the exchange of money for donor eggs to be wrong and that they can actually find it disturbing that money was exchanged for their own conception. So our model takes out cash compensation and instead gives women something that they're excited about, which is preserving their own fertility as well and really sets up everyone involved for success. VICTORIA: Yeah. I saw that in your literature, you bring this human-centered design to how you built the platform, which I think speaks to a little bit of what you're describing there. And do you think that being a woman founder yourself allows you to relate and empathize with women who have this unique perspective or a different perspective on how egg donation should work? LAUREN: Yes, egg donation and egg freezing, honestly. I think I mentioned a little bit about my own experience. Both of my two co-founders have also really, really been through it when it comes to their journeys to parenthood; both of them have been through IVF. And one of them says, you know, her biggest regret in life is that she didn't freeze her eggs at 25. And now, instead of just sitting in that, she's building a company to help other women not have that same regret. So building the company we wished existed when we were younger lets us build something that truly is empathetic and human-centered. And it's unfortunate that so much of healthcare is built and designed by people who, while maybe they have good intentions, they're not building from a place of experience, and I think reproductive health is one of those. I think women need to be involved in designing those solutions, and too often, they're not. VICTORIA: Right. Yes. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I want to talk more about you and your three co-founders and how quickly all this has come together. So, how did you know that your team of co-founders was the right team that these are the people you wanted to start this with? LAUREN: Yeah, it's an interesting question on so many fronts. I think there are people who spend a really long time, like co-founder dating, and use frameworks for evaluating co-founders, and the truth of it for us is that it all happened very quickly. Halle, who is the person who connected the three of us, she is one of my co-founders, and she's just someone I had long admired in digital health and women's health. And there was a day where...we peripherally knew each other. And she slid into my DMs on Instagram. Like, you never know where a great contact may come from. And she asked me what I was up to, what I was working on, and the rest is history. I told her I had just left...I spent eight and a half years at Uber and launched new markets of Uber across the East Coast and then started a business line at Uber called Uber Health, and Halle had always followed my trajectory there. And when she reached out to me, it was like, [gasps] what's it going to be about? And when it ended up that she had an idea centered around egg freezing and egg donation, given the experience I had had with my own fertility journey, it just felt like how could this not be the right thing for me to go build? So I would say gut instinct is really what it comes down to. Halle and Arielle, our third co-founder, had worked together a bit in their past lives. Halle built a company called Natalist, which is fertility, pregnancy tests, ovulation kits, and prenatal vitamins, things like that. And Arielle had actually built the first iteration of Cofertility, which was a fertility content site. And they had had that rapport already, and so that was something that I valued quite a bit. Really talking to some references and getting opinions of people you trust, but your gut, more than anything, will help you answer that question. VICTORIA: Right. And sounds like there's that shared experience and mutual respect, which goes a long way. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, that and also a shared vision. Like, if you're aligned with someone in the first month or so of talking about an idea, and when it goes from a little kernel to snowballing and becoming something real, I think it's a good signal. But if you're butting heads and disagreeing in that first really crucial time, it's probably a good idea to go in a different direction. VICTORIA: Yeah. And thinking along those lines, were there decisions that were really easy to make, and what were those? And the second part of the question is what decisions were kind of challenging to make, and what made those decisions challenging? LAUREN: It's funny. Halle was just like, "This idea is going to work, and I know it. Let's do it." I am someone who likes to see evidence before making a decision. And so I suggested in those first two weeks, like, let's get a survey together. Let's ask women, "Hey, would you actually be interested in egg donation if it meant that you got to keep half of the eggs for yourself and that there was no cash compensation involved?" So we asked a few influencers on Instagram to put out our Typeform, and within, like, I don't know, 24 hours, we had over 700 responses. VICTORIA: Wow. LAUREN: And it was a very resounding like, yes, this is something women were interested in. That gave me all the conviction I needed to go at this full force. And so I think having that proof point not only was valuable to help me get there, but it also helped investors get on board. I think some of the easy decisions were like there were certain investors that after meeting I just knew like, yes, this is someone I want to be working with over the next few years. This is someone who sees the same vision that we see. And there were a few conversations with other potential investors where I was like, you know what? That's not who I want to work with. Again, it's like, I'm very big on my instincts as it relates to people and trusting that. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And congratulations on raising your seed funding. LAUREN: Thank you. VICTORIA: And was that a stressful process? How did you feel after that happened? LAUREN: Parts of it were stressful, for sure. I think the fact that I had never done it before was stressful. I like to call myself...before this, I was an intrapreneur. I pitched the idea of Uber Health to Uber executive leadership with a deck that was very similar to what you would pitch external investors with in a scenario like this. So I had gone through a little bit of that but never before had I done anything quite like this. And so I felt very lucky to have Halle by my side through that process because it wasn't her first rodeo. But I would say trusting yourself and trusting that you can figure this out. It seems so much more intimidating than it needs to be. No one is expecting you to fully know how all of this stuff works. It's very figureoutable. VICTORIA: And what obstacles did you face in the last year that you've been working on this? LAUREN: The biggest obstacle, I would say, honestly came down to having the time to both get a company off the ground...and I like to imagine an aeroplane. You have to figure out what kind of plane you're building; then you have to find all the parts, then you have to build the plane. And then the goal upon launch, I can imagine it when I close my eyes. It is like getting the plane off the ground. And with a startup, like you can imagine, there's always a bit of building the plane while you're flying it. But doing all of that over the last year, plus finding the right people to hire, is two full-time jobs. You're sourcing incredible candidates. You're meeting with them. You're pitching them the business. But you also need to evaluate whether or not they're as great as their resume makes them seem. Then you have to convince them to join your seed-stage startup, then check their references, and then put together their offer package, and then do all of their paperwork. And it was like all of these things that I took for granted at Uber for so long of having recruiters, and having an HR team, [laughs] and all of those things that truly it is a full-time job plus building a company. So that, for me, was the hardest. And hiring just at that early stage is so, so important because you add one person, and that's like such a huge percentage of your team. So every hire has to be a great one, but you also can't wait too long to hire because then you miss your goals. VICTORIA: Right. Yes. And there's lots of uncertainty going on in the world as well. I'm sure that makes hiring extra exciting. LAUREN: Yes. I mean, exciting and also scary. I think exciting from the fact that there's great talent that's looking in a way that wasn't necessarily the case six months ago, but scary in that you have to...one of my biggest or things that keeps me up at night is like, what's the right timing to bring on new people so that your business scales appropriately but not too soon that you have people waiting around for the work to come? VICTORIA: Right, yes. And speaking of scary, I can imagine the choice to leave a company like Uber and go and start your own business was thrilling. [laughs] Can you tell me more about how that happened, or what was the order of operations there? LAUREN: I'll go back to my personal story a little bit. So I ended up with this disease that I had been diagnosed with. It was so rare and so not a lot of data on this disease that I decided it was...or these doctors were like, "You know what? Do you have a sister by any chance?" I was like, "What do you mean?" They were like, "You know, it's too risky for you to freeze your eggs just because we don't have any data on your disease. But if you have your sister freeze her eggs and donate them to you, you have them as a backup should you need them." So my incredible sister did that. And I learned a lot about the process of donation even through that experience. And went on to have three surgeries and ultimately was able to conceive without using my sister's eggs which was crazy and exciting and definitely gave my doctors a shock, which was great. And when I had my daughter, it was like this light bulb went off of, like, I have to build something in reproductive health. If I'm spending my time building something, I want it to be spent giving people who want to have a child this amazing gift that I've been given. And it was like an immediate amount of clarity. And so, after my maternity leave, I gave notice at Uber without a plan. I did not have a business idea. I did not have a job lined up. I was fortunate enough to be able to do that. But I almost think releasing myself of that is what gave me the freedom to think about other things. And it was within a day that Halle sent me that DM on Instagram without knowing I had given notice. So the universe works in mysterious ways. VICTORIA: That's wonderful and so exciting and that you just had a baby and then to be in a position where you could start a company and almost feel like I don't have enough to do; [laughter] I want to start a new company too. [laughs] LAUREN: I know. I ended up...the day we pitched our lead investors was my daughter's six-month birthday. VICTORIA: That's amazing. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: How do you balance that, like, those needs of being a mom and maybe being sleep deprived, but also starting this incredibly important business that you're passionate about? LAUREN: I mean, I'm very lucky that I have an amazing husband and sort of partner in all of this. We both are very involved in each other's work, and I highly recommend that if that's something you're open to. I think it gives you an outlet and someone to be invested in it with you but also more to talk about with your partner. [laughs] But other than that, too, I think having boundaries. So I've been really, really specific with myself and with my team about what windows of time I'm with my daughter, and I'm meticulous about it. If that means on certain days, I wake up before she does so that I can get some work done so that I have two hours with her first thing in the morning, and then I'm off between the hours of 4:00 to 7:00 so that I can spend time with her. If that means getting back online at night, I'm down to do that. I just won't compromise the time with her. And my team has been really respectful and honoring of that. And in turn, I really encourage everyone on my team to have a life outside work, whether that's with their children or their pets, or having physical activity, or things like that in their life. I think it's so important that we're not entirely defined by our startups. I think that's how people burn out really quickly. And it's like 2023, right? We don't need to be in this hustle culture where 100% of our time is focused on building our company. It's just not sustainable. VICTORIA: Right. I like that you mentioned sustainability. And that's been a recurring theme I've seen where, yeah, the hustle culture leads to burnout. It isn't sustainable. So are there other cultural or values that you impart onto your team, this new team, that you're standing up to create that sustainability in that innovation that you want? LAUREN: Yeah. I think one thing we've implemented...I would highly recommend actually Matt Mochary's CEO Curriculum. You can find it by Googling it, or I can share the link with you. And within his curriculum, he has something called The Magic Questions. And the magic questions it's like five or six questions where you ask everyone on your team, like, how would they rate their life at work? How would they rate working with the team? How's their personal life going? Like, you know, questions that you can quickly get to the root of something. But then, aside from giving a rating for each of those questions, it asks like, "How would you take it to the next level?" And what I think implementing these questions has done is it's like each time we do it, it gives the leadership team something to act on of like, "Hey, I noticed a theme amongst the employees with this set of magic questions. Like, here are some things we can address to improve that for everyone." And then there are also opportunities with each individual to say, "Hey, manager of this person, so and so called out that they're really struggling with prioritization this month, or they're really struggling with being split on these two projects. How can we help relieve that, or how can we dig in with that person so that the next time we ask these questions, that's not still an issue and that we've been able to take swift action to help improve that?" I think that really helps to just stay close to what people are feeling and thinking. And it also gives people, I think, more self-awareness of how they're doing and what they can be intentional about and address for themselves as well. VICTORIA: I like that. I'll have to look up that book and share it in our show notes as well and -- LAUREN: It's actually even all online. It's like a Google Doc you can look at. VICTORIA: That's awesome. LAUREN: And there's also a book called The Great CEO Within by Matt Mochary. But I love the book and the Google Doc version. VICTORIA: That's awesome. And it sounds like you really pulled everything together so fast. [laughs] I'm curious about your background if you feel like there were...you mentioned that you pitched inwardly to Uber. But what else about your background kind of lends you to this leadership-founder skill set? LAUREN: I mean, I joined Uber in 2013 when we had, I think, fewer than 200 employees, and we were in about 12 cities. So I very much knew startup life. And I understood this idea of sort of building the plane while you're flying it and saw that. And so I think that certainly has contributed to this. It's important when you're a founder to surround yourself with other founders and to have people that you can tap into at any point. I'm in a few different Slack groups with different founders; some are healthcare founders, some women founders, some through the VCs that we've worked with where it's really easy to say, "Hey, which payroll tool are you using?" Or "Hey, like, how do I measure employee NPS?" Or "What tools are you using for this or that?" And if you can tap into other founders, you really can move a lot faster. You don't have to write your entire employee handbook from scratch because you can borrow from other people. I think that's one of the best hacks that I would recommend. And then some of these books that I found that really do, you know, within that Matt Mochary book, it's like, here's a way to make candidate offers. Obviously, the book isn't doing the work for you, but it certainly is helping to give you a framework. And then the other piece is like, aside from your own team, I think bringing in some advisors who you trust and can go to for certain things. So two of our advisors are people I worked incredibly closely with at Uber and would trust with my life and so why not trust them with my company? So bringing them into the mix has been a real relief. And then just sort of about your community. I think it takes a village to raise...I think, actually, I would compare launching a company to having a baby. So if having a baby takes a village, so does launching a company. VICTORIA: Right. Or no founder is an island. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, exactly. VICTORIA: There's like a community, a whole group around that. I've heard, even in the episodes I've recorded, that it's a common theme among successful founders, which is heartwarming and understandable. So last question about just how it all got started. But if you could travel back in time to when you first decided you wanted to go after this opportunity, what advice would you give yourself now that you have all your present knowledge? LAUREN: I say this even to our intended parents who are grappling with this decision of using an egg donor to have a baby: remain steadfast on the vision or the end goal and be flexible on the how. So if you're an intended parent, it's like, remain flexible, like, steadfast on this idea that you want to become a parent, but be flexible on the how. With a company, I think stay true to what that ultimate vision is. So, for us, it's like help more people have babies on their own timeline and be flexible on the how, so exactly what our business model was, or exactly what our go-to-market approach would be, or exactly which product we were going to use to get there. I wish I had been a little bit more open to it being a winding road than I realized I needed to be at the beginning. So now I know that, and I'm open to any possibility as long as it gets us to the same place. VICTORIA: Right, gotcha. Yeah, well, let me ask you then about your go-to-market strategy since you mentioned it. What was unique in your strategy there, especially to target the specific consumers that you want to with this app? LAUREN: So I did follow a bit of an Uber approach, which is this idea of a soft launch. And the reason for that...so basically what we did was for the Freeze by Co side of our business, so for women who are interested in freezing, they have the option to join our split program where they donate half to intended parents and do it for free. Or they can join our Keep Program, where they freeze their eggs but keep 100% of the eggs for themselves. And we help do that along the way. However, basically, we couldn't launch Family by Co to help people find donors until we had donors. So it made sense to launch the Freeze by Co side of our business first. And I wanted the ability to market to them when we didn't have the eyes of the whole industry on us, or we didn't have tons and tons of consumers reading our press or things like that just yet. And so by soft launching with a quick beta Squarespace page, we were able to test our hypothesis, test our messaging, test our funnel, test our experience before really putting a ton of marketing spend behind it or having a ton of visibility into what we were doing. And I'm so, so grateful we did that. It led us, like, we went through probably five different versions of our funnel before we got to our public launch, and our soft launch really afforded us the opportunity to do that. So by the time we turned on the Family by Co side of our business, we already had over 50 donors on day one for them because we had already gotten these women through the funnel. VICTORIA: I love that. And that's something we talk a lot about with founders at thoughtbot is that idea of validating your product, and you talked about it with your Instagram poll that you did with influencers. And the way you're talking about your go-to-market strategy is that you wanted to make sure that even though you knew this is what you wanted to do, that you had the right approach and that you could create something that consumers actually wanted to buy and had trust in. LAUREN: Mm-hmm, totally. VICTORIA: You launched in October 2022. Are there any results post-launch that surprised you? LAUREN: I feel so grateful that our launch truly exceeded my expectations. So the interest from women in our programs has been overwhelming, like overwhelming in a good way. And then intended parents are thrilled about it. So we are making matches every day of these intended parents and these donors. And every time we make a match, I'm like, oh my God, it feels like Christmas morning. You're helping people find their path towards growing their family, and there's nothing that feels better than that. I don't think that feeling is ever going to go away, so I'm thrilled about it. But it doesn't mean that it's not hard. I think back to that analogy of like having a baby, you know, you launch this company. You hope it's received. You count ten fingers, ten toes, hope that it's received, hope that it's received. It is, but then you have the demand, and you have inbound on partnership opportunities, and you have managing the demand and handling the leads and things like that. And it's like so much more than you expect. It's like the same feeling of having a newborn of, like, [gasps] how are we going to do all this? Am I going to stay up all night to manage this? Or how do we handle what we're seeing? And so it's a lot, and figuring out what this new normal is is something that my team and I are working through every day. VICTORIA: What's wonderful is that the surprise feels even better than you thought it would. [laughs] LAUREN: Yes. VICTORIA: Wonderful. For myself, as I'm in my 30s and I'm married and, you know, I'm not thinking it about at some point in the future. But what advice do you think you want women to think about regarding their fertility at any age, like if you could talk to consumers directly like you are now? [laughs] LAUREN: Totally. Just that it's never too soon to ask those questions. And the information you need and should want is like inside your body but ready to be shared with you. So by having a consult with a fertility clinic, and that's something my team could help you with, you can learn about your prospects for having a baby and understanding how fertile you are. And just because, you know, they say, "Oh, as long as you're under a certain age, you shouldn't have a problem," doesn't mean that that's the case. One of my co-founders was 28 when she started trying to conceive and was completely blindsided that this was going to be a real struggle for her, and that breaks my heart. It doesn't need to be like that. If we're more proactive and we start asking these questions younger, then we can actually do something about it. So your fertility is really about your egg quantity and your egg quality, and both of those things are things that can be tested and measured. And I think I'm someone who loves data. And having that data, I think, can help enable you to make decisions about how you can best move forward, and for some, it might mean having a baby soon. For others, it might mean freezing your eggs. For others, it might be a waiting scenario. But that's something that you can make a more informed decision about if you have that data. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'll be sharing this episode with all of my friends and everything on Instagram as well. LAUREN: [laughs] VICTORIA: Great information to put out there. And what's on the horizon for you? What are the big challenges that you see coming up for Cofertility in the next months or year? LAUREN: I think really like scale is what we're focused on. So we've started making matches; it feels great. I want us to be prepared to do those at scale. We are seeing no slowdown in terms of people who are interested in this. And so, making sure that our team is ready and able to handle that demand is my absolute top priority. So I think scale is top of mind. I think making sure we're optimizing our experience for that is really important. So how do we make sure that everyone is having a magical, smooth experience, both through our digital experience but also if they're on the phone with someone from our team or if they're reading our materials at the fertility clinic? Like, how do we ensure that that's a great experience all around? VICTORIA: Right, that makes sense. And right now, is Cofertility specific to a certain location, or is it nationwide? LAUREN: Nationwide throughout the U.S. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And you yourself are based in California, right? LAUREN: Yes, I'm based in Los Angeles. And our team is fully remote, which has been a really exciting thing to do. We're in different time zones and have a lot of opportunity to visit people in different cities, which is nice. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great, yeah. How do you help build that culture remotely with a brand-new team? LAUREN: So, for us, I think we're very intentional about having team off sites at least twice a year. We also get together for different things like planning meetings or conferences that are really relevant to us. But I think part of it, too, is really around different touchpoints throughout the day. And we have a daily stand-up. We also are clear about which hours everyone sort of overlaps based on their time zones and making sure that people are available during those windows and then giving everyone flexibility otherwise in terms of when it makes the most sense to do their work, not being too prescriptive. And really, again, encouraging people to have a life outside work, I think, makes it so that we get the best out of our team. VICTORIA: Right, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we've got similar...at thoughtbot, we have in-person meetups once or twice a year and then go to different conferences and things together. And I think some people do miss a little bit of the office experience, but for the most part, everyone is happy to put it that way. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, it's definitely...I think for sure it has its pros and cons. I think what I love about it is that we're not limited with talent. Our team truly, like, [laughs] we have people...we have someone in Oakland, someone in Miami, someone in Charleston, someone in Boston, someone in New York City. Like, the fact that we're not limited because of geography feels great. And I admittedly really love the ability to see my daughter throughout the day and feel like I don't have to stress over how much time I'm spending commuting. So I can't see myself ever going back. VICTORIA: That's right, and LA is certainly a place to have a long commute. [laughter] And have you gotten any benefit out of local networking and community around Los Angeles or Southern California? LAUREN: Yes, absolutely. Even this Friday night, I'm going to a female founder dinner. I have something coming up in a couple of weeks with this group of women's health founders that I really love. It's so, so valuable to have people in your network that are both local and get the life that you're living while you're doing it. I think having people understand why your life is the way it is while you're building a company is really quite nice. So there are founder communities everywhere but seeking those out early is definitely helpful. VICTORIA: And then if you have a remote team, then each team member can have that local community, so you're 10x-ing. [laughs] LAUREN: Completely. VICTORIA: Yeah, wonderful. Is there anything else, anything that you think I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet? LAUREN: No. I think one thing I would encourage is when you're trying to figure out your go-to-market approach, what the strategy is going to be. I'm a big fan of getting everything really in slides. Get it in slides and bring in some people you trust. Talk to your advisors, talk to your investors, talk to your co-founders or your team and say, "Hey, these are the three ways this could go. Here are pros and cons of each one," and making a decision that way. I think when we try to do it where it's like all in someone's head, and you're not getting it out on paper with pros and cons, it can feel like a really, really hard decision. But when you see things on paper, and you're able to get the opinion of people you trust, everything is able to come to fruition much more quickly, and you can get to a decision faster. VICTORIA: Right. So you're probably really buzzing with ideas early on and finding ways to communicate those and get it so that you can practice talking about it to somebody else. Makes sense. LAUREN: Yeah. It's like, how do you socialize it? That's a great way to do it. VICTORIA: Yeah, well, wonderful. This has been a really enjoyable conversation. I appreciate you coming on the show so much, and thank you for sharing all about Cofertility with us. Any other final takeaways for our listeners? LAUREN: Thanks so much for having me. If you're interested at all in what we're doing or it would be helpful to connect, our website is cofertility.com. You can find me on Instagram at @laurenmakler, L-A-U-R-E-N-M-A-K-L-E-R. Happy to chat really about anything as it relates to building a company, or your fertility, or just questions you have in general. I would love to chat. VICTORIA: Thank you so much. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.

Heather Maio-Smith is the Co-Founder, President, and Chief Visionary Officer at StoryFile, bringing global audiences an interactive ecosystem that records and preserves human conversations in a way that removes the traditional boundaries of time and space. Victoria talks to Heather about why this product needed to exist in the world, supporting human connection and storytelling, and the journey to get funding, expand, and plan what's next for StoryFile. StoryFile (https://storyfile.com/) Follow StoryFile on Twitter (https://twitter.com/storyfile), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/storyfile/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/StoryFileApp), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/storyfile/), or TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@storyfile). Follow Heather on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-maio-smith/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Heather Maio-Smith, Co-Founder, President, and Chief Visionary Officer at StoryFile, bringing global audiences an interactive ecosystem that records and preserves human conversations in a way that removes the traditional boundaries of time and space. Heather, thank you for joining us. HEATHER: Thank you for having me, Victoria. I'm excited to have a conversation with you. VICTORIA: Yes, I am really excited to learn about StoryFile and your product Conversa. Tell me a little bit about it. HEATHER: You did a great job on the introduction; thank you. The one thing that I would add is that it's very important that people know that this is video. And this is the differentiator between us and maybe a traditional chatbot, for example. We are video-based. That could mean an actual human being creates the content. The video content is always preferable. [laughs] But you can also do it in some sneaky other ways too [laughs], so it's very interesting. VICTORIA: Right. So as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you can record a video of a conversation and then use Conversa to turn that into an interactive video where a user has the freedom to ask their own questions. HEATHER: Correct. Essentially, what you do is you answer whatever questions that you like. You're in charge of the storyline script. You create all the questions. The interviewee answers all of the questions via video record, and then all of those video clips are put into a database. Anyone can ask you basically any conversation. Most of them are open-ended conversations. If there are shorter, like, let's say you've only [inaudible 02:03] questions, and it's kind of a focus, you have a point, and it's a focused line of questioning, then that's obviously going to be you can't ask anything. But we usually have the individual introduce it and say, "For example, this is my bio. I've answered a few questions about my life and my career and me personally, so feel free to ask me anything about my career or my life." Then the individuals will know what the parameters are for that conversation. And you could just ask anything, learn anything anytime you want. So it's in real-time for you. No going on Google and searching through 20 pages to get an answer anymore. You should be able to talk the ideas. You should be able to talk to someone who's lived that experience or has that knowledge, ask them a question, and find out the information that you want to find out, or get to know somebody that you would never have the opportunity to talk to. VICTORIA: What an interesting idea. And what led you to think that this was a product that needed to exist in the world? HEATHER: Well, they say that necessity is the mother of invention. I happened to be in Holocaust education back in the early 2000s. And one of the main things that the entire field was concerned about is what are we going to do when the Holocaust survivors are no longer alive? They had spent over 60 years in the public telling their story, talking to students, for example the public. They've done documentaries; they've done books; they've done interviews. The Shoah Foundation at USC has 55,000 narrative interviews. So it's very well-documented. But the one thing that we weren't able to replicate yet, and this is what we were worried about, was they couldn't make that personal connection. And how do they make that personal connection? It's through people asking their own questions and actually engaging with those individuals that that's when the real magic happened. I mean, that's when people felt connected to these individuals and that story, that history. That was what I didn't want to lose after they had passed away. And so I thought to myself, there's got to be a way to replicate the Q&A, you know, the question and answer conversation where I can ask my own question, which leads me to learn deeper than if I was passively watching a video or even listening to a lecture. So I went to the Shoah Foundation, and I said, "There's got to be a way to do this." They said after many conversations, "Okay. You might not be crazy. [laughs] or as crazy as we thought you were at the beginning. But we still don't know how you're going to do it. So go away and figure out how you're going to do it, and then come back to us when you've figured it out." That was my challenge. And luckily, I found an amazing team to help us all figure out how to do it. And we got to the part where we had to take these individuals, like, the video recordings, and we had to have people actually ask them questions and have these conversations so that we could populate the database for a more accurate conversation. And so I was in the public for a couple of years all over the world. And the one question I kept getting the most was, "This is amazing. Can I do this myself? And can I do this with my parents? Can I do this with my grandparents? Can I do this with the founder of our company?" And people came to me, and they had so many ideas. "This would be great for this. Oh my gosh, could you imagine doing this?" And after a while, you say to yourself, okay, what would it look like if we did this for everyone? What would it look like if we made it ubiquitous, allow everybody to replace their FAQs? Every leader in this country, every CEO, every influencer, or any individual who's got something to say that we can all learn from, which, by the way, is pretty much everyone on the planet. They can tell their story, and they can talk about their experiences, and we can learn from that. Even saving time on interviewing future candidates in person. You narrow it down to 10 people. You have them do StoryFiles. You actually engage with their StoryFile, and then you just choose two that you want to meet in person, possibly saving you hours and hours of time. It's just about asking questions and getting an answer in the moment when you need it, not waiting for an email, not going through 20 pages of Google. And it's also about connecting with a real person instead of these chatbots that everybody's trying to move away from. And I think they're trying to move towards avatars because they're more visual, but it's still not a human being. So it's still kind of an automated voice, and they're not real. And there's no emotion, and you don't have any body language. So what if you could just ask a person? You probably get asked some of the same questions. And in the next 2 minutes, you could probably think of 10 questions that you get asked almost daily. So what if you did a StoryFile? You answered all those ten questions and maybe more, and then you never had to have that conversation again. Think of all the time that those people now, if they get in front of you, they don't have to waste time asking any of those typical, basic questions. They can just get right into a deeper conversation with you. VICTORIA: I love it. Yeah, I'm already thinking in the back of my mind, like, oh, I could use these for what if you're trying to show what it's like to work at thoughtbot? And you just want to ask someone at thoughtbot a question, and you could play with StoryFile. Yeah, I think it's enormously useful. And I love the story starts with a hugely impactful mission of capturing those stories. And I wonder how that experience of the importance of storytelling has had on your ability to get funding and get this project through as a founder. HEATHER: It's been a journey. [laughter] First of all, let me say that I think it has been slightly more complex than most startups because, from the onset or the get-go, or whatever you want to call it, this technology has been meant for consumers and businesses alike. So you've got a B2C play, and you've got a B2B play, which is very complicated for investors to understand maybe and really get the vision in its totality. So it's been a struggle to communicate it in a way that people really understand this can be done. You're creating a whole new medium. This is not an I'm creating a new rocking chair type of thing that's better than the other chair that you had. I'm creating a chair. It's a new kind of chair. And you have to take these people on a journey to understanding how much better their lives can be and how much time they can save if they just invest a little bit of time, which they kind of have to do anyway. I mean, look at it, you spend so much time writing FAQs for a website and finding all the answers, and then putting them all together and putting them in the website. You could spend the same amount of time actually getting all those questions, recording yourself answering them. In fact, it probably would take less time. Record the answer, and then, bam, you have it. Everybody can actually talk to you, ask you those questions, and you can guide them. And they get the benefit of actually feeling as though they've talked to a human being. They've connected with you emotionally, and everyone's better off for it. The investors have been...they either absolutely get behind you 100% and love what you're doing and want to be on the journey with you, or they are a bit we'll wait and see. There hasn't been one investor, though, that has said, "You're not onto something. I don't believe in what you're doing, and your idea is not going to work," not one. So we know it has legs. And we just have to build the body and get it from the walking stage, walk to run. VICTORIA: Right. And I see you have quite an impressive client list already. And you recently won an award for best software as a service product for education and nonprofits in the learning and CSR category, so that's impressive. And I want to hear more about how that process has been scaling from you had one initial customer who was the Holocaust Museum, and now you've expanded, and what kind of lessons you might have about that experience, getting to the walking stage, and what you have planned coming ahead. HEATHER: I don't know if I have much advice, actually. [laughter] I could probably use more advice than I can give. Every day, you know, you take it one day at a time, and you move forward. We haven't forgotten where we started, which was in enabling audiences through museums and public spaces to enable them to have these conversations with people that they would not normally get to talk to. There's this studio professional services side of this as well. Then you have, all right, we had to have a back end. We had to have a platform in order to run our business. What if we made that platform available to other companies? Okay, what does that mean? And how does one build that? Then is it built intuitively and easily enough for people to actually do what they want to do with it, which is create these interactive conversational video AI modules (We call them StoryFiles.) for a variety of different cases? I mean, think about every kid can talk to one of the best teachers in the world and learn from them. Every possible person that wants to go on a date could actually talk to potential people. And those people don't even know that they're having these first-date conversations with them, so it saves you that first meeting, that awkward first date. But it also allows you to make a better choice for that first date or, like I said, screening or even onboarding and corporate training. All those manuals that people have written everything and all the information that's in there, nobody wants to go to a manual and look up an answer. No, you're going to go to someone that you think knows the answer, and you're going to ask them. So why not just pull out your phone and do that on your phone, you know? Like, Walmart has this amazing thing that they call financial mentor. They did StoryFiles for new store managers. It's all around answering those questions that you would get as a new manager that you would have running the day-to-day of a Walmart store. So they can literally pull out their phone. They've got their own Walmart learning management system on the phone, and they can talk to a financial mentor and ask them questions. So, what do I do if I have a register that's this? Or I forgot what the form is that you use for this. Or what do I do if my endcaps aren't really churning enough buzz and businesses I think it should be? All those questions that you're going to ask in the first couple of years of taking on a new position. So it's basically anywhere that you have questions and people normally give you answers, you can do a StoryFile. VICTORIA: Yeah, it sounds like a real change to the way people do business and how you can automate some of those conversations and provide a more human touch too. HEATHER: Yeah, it's all about that human touch, isn't it? The one reason I think that people now, you know, for the last three years, everybody's been obsessed with these avatar chatbots, but they're not really solving the problem. The problem is the chatbots don't seem real. You don't feel as if you're having a conversation with an actual person, and that's what frustrates you the most because they don't understand. They don't seem like they're being empathetic. They don't seem like you're relatable. And there's also the uncanny valley, and then the automated voices, and the cadence, and all of that. So this solves all that. VICTORIA: 80% of communication is non-verbal, right? HEATHER: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, but nobody really thinks about that. [laughter] We do digital recreations; notice I'm not calling it an avatar because we do an authentic version of an individual. And most of the time, 99% of the time, the person's not alive anymore. But we work with the archives; we work with the foundations; we work with the families. Nothing that we have that digital recreation say is anything that we've made up. It's always based on what they've actually said and the way that they've said it. So we review, like, we did one digital recreation that we reviewed over 1,700 hours of video. The key thing was getting an actor that physically looked like the individual, and it has to be a method actor. The method actor also reviews some of those videos and really gets a sense of who that individual was. Then they form the basis for the digital recreation for the body language, for the facial expressions, for the cadence of the voice. And then, you do the face mapping and other special effects that you might have to do to the body. Then you do the voice cloning so that you get the person's actual voice. So it's a really detailed process. And what you end up with is probably the most authentic version of an individual that can be created. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: You mentioned avatars. But that process also sounds different than what I've heard about deepfakes as well. Do you want to -- HEATHER: Yeah. Well, our digital recreations are based on more authentic...they're probably as authentic as you can get to the actual individual. It's not based on, you know, avatars still; even if you do one that's based on 10 minutes of video of yourself, you will still have the uncanny valley. You will still have the broken cadence. You'll still have an automated voice where it sounds automated. They are getting better, and they'll continue to get better. But there's no avatar that you can honestly tell me is going to accurately convey emotion and those non-verbal cues. They can't do it. A computer cannot intuit it. You have to have the individual. You have to have something based from the actual person in order to get the most accurate you can get. An avatar who you're basically treating as a visual chatbot you're just typing in the answers. So there's no emotional connection. There's no body language or cadence that you can connect with in that. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And I can clearly see the...we've talked about the business use cases a little bit. But on the individual consumer side, I'm thinking about making a StoryFile of my grandpa from Pasadena and the value what that would be like to have that family member have a realistic portrayal of them for future generations to interact with. HEATHER: It's priceless. And he's still alive, right? VICTORIA: Yeah. HEATHER: So it's not a realistic portrait. It is him. You could do a StoryFile life. You'd go to StoryFile life. You'd pick out all the questions you wanted to ask him, add your own questions. Every family has got those five stories that individuals always tell at the dinner table during Thanksgiving or something. So you want to make sure you capture all of those. Let's say that he responds to a question that you've asked. And the beauty of it, by the way, is these are questions that you probably would not normally ask somebody in daily conversation. So you really get a sense of who they are from day one, you know, from their childhood all the way through their life today. If they say something that you're like, wait a minute, stop, [laughs] you've got to explain that, you can add a question, add a follow-up question and just say, "Can you tell me more about that?" or "Explain yourself. Like, how did you come to that? How did you make that decision? What went into this move and this shift?" or whatever you want to know more about. "Or how did that affect your family?" you know, so many questions. So it allows you to ask all of those questions. You record your grandfather, which, by the way, is an amazing experience for you; forget him, [laughter], but it's an amazing experience for you. And I guarantee you; you will learn something. To date, I have not had one family say that they haven't learned something or heard a story that they never heard before. So it's a really interesting process. And you feel bonded to that individual after you're done talking and doing this interview in a way that you didn't before. Then you have that recording of this individual that your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren will be able to get a sense of who this individual was, and what their life was like, and who they were to you even. That's priceless to be able to give, you know, we hang on, you go into ancestry.com; you pull up a ship's manifest. And you see your relative's signature. Okay, fine. But what do you really know about that person? Nothing. You know they came over on a ship. [laughs] And you see maybe how their signature looked, but that doesn't really tell you anything. So we want to change all that. We want to flip it all out. We want you to know all of your ancestors. We want your kids to know everybody and learn from them. VICTORIA: I love that. And it's an interesting intersection of this very core human emotion to AI technology or this leading-edge technology. And I wonder, what has surprised you in the technology building side about what ways it easily supports making this human connection and other ways where it's still a challenge to make everything connect? HEATHER: I would have loved to have gotten at least three PhDs [laughs], and then I can think over the last 12 years. Okay, so I started this in 2009. So you got to remember there was no Skype, really. I mean, Skype came into its own...it existed in 2008, but it didn't really come into its own until 2012. Speech recognition wasn't really a thing. We knew it was going to happen, but it wasn't there yet. That was one of the big things that people had to really take a leap of faith with me that we could even get this to work. We didn't know if it would do what we thought it would do. And we were doing this completely...it was a passion play. It was; let's see if we can do this type of thing. We actually did. It did fulfill what I envisioned it being and doing. It did finally fulfill, and I realized that in 2016, so it took that long. And in order to make it ubiquitous for everyone, and you know this because you build software, and you help people with products: to do something for the general public and to make it ubiquitous, and make it scalable, that's a whole nother ballgame. We're taking a process that was incredibly manual...everyone says, "Oh, AI is going to take over the world." No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not even close. It's still so manual. It's based on data. And whatever you manually put in is what you get out. In order to take that and make it automated in whatever ways you can and then keep dreaming about a day where, for example, the follow-up questions that I talked to you about. One day on our roadmap, God willing, next year, you will be able to get that follow-up question actually suggested to you because the computer will know what that individual has said. And the computer will figure out here's a question that you might want to ask, which has never been done before. And there are several things that we have on our roadmap that haven't been done before, but we've been in this zone where you know, other companies have tried. One of our advisors was president of Google Americas. And when she came on board with us, she said, "Google tried to do something similar to this in the early 2000s." But it was just a little too early, and they couldn't figure it out. So they scrapped the whole thing. And with software, timing has a lot to do with it. Your expectations and what you think you can do and when you can do it have to be constantly monitored and constantly re-evaluated. And do the best you can with what is technically available at the moment, and then plan to see how you might make that evolve or improve that or add to that. For example, the field of natural language processing it's at one stage right now, but we have things that we want to do with it and advances that we'd like to see happen. And we're going to have to make those happen if we want to see those happen. VICTORIA: You had both the timing and the need and just enough technology progression to make something happen when you did, and you were able to grow it. It sounds like your family is also involved in helping you along the journey. And I was curious to hear about how that has been for you and -- HEATHER: Okay, so it's not really fair because I grew up in a family-owned business. I'm totally used to it. Everybody asked me, "What's it like working with your husband, and what's it like?" You know, along this journey, we've had various family members working for us, and honestly, that's mostly been a necessity. They happened to be the most skilled and the most talented people to do the job at the moment that I had access to. They got it, you know, it's sort of like the game, okay, tag, you're it. [laughs] Some of them have gone on to do other things; one started her own app called Camber. The other started a PR agency and is doing very well. The other went on to do structural engineering, and the other one is still working for us. And Stephen's my husband's oldest, and I have told her many times even though she does want to go to law school at some point, I said, "No, I'm never letting you leave. [laughter] You're never leaving me." Yeah, it's kind of not fair because we happen to have the ideal situation where Stephen and I are both passionate and have a very clear vision of what we want to do and how to get there, which I think you do need. We respect each other tremendously. I'm in awe of him almost every day. I can see where in a lot of families, it would be problematic but somehow not for us. It worked really well. With investors, it is kind of tricky because you don't want to seem like you're a mom-and-pop shop, either. That's definitely not what we are. We're very focused, and we're very intentional. To some investors, it might seem like we're all over the place because of the B2C and the B2B thing, but it's really not. We explained to them that we're actually building one thing, and that's conversational video. That's what we're doing. It's a big vision, that's all, and it's a massive market. VICTORIA: Yeah, I believe it. I mean, having people in your corner who believe in your vision and you have respect for working for each other, whether they're your blood family or your chosen family, that's what really you need to be successful. And I think it's a common theme we see across people who are able to create these products is that they have a team around them. [laughs] It's never just one person. HEATHER: Yeah, no, it's never just one person. And I've been really, really fortunate. You talk about family that you've chosen. I've been really fortunate to have a lot of the team members who were on this journey with me back in 2010. So that's how far we all go with this and trying to evolve this technology and build this medium and this way of communicating. We're in it. We're all in it for better or worse. VICTORIA: Yeah, I agree. And I assume that that amount of loyalty from your team over that long time is a pro point for investors as well. And I'm curious, so if you could record a StoryFile for yourself now to send back in time to when you were first starting this up, I wonder what questions you would ask yourself [laughs] to be able to give you the advice you needed when you were just starting. HEATHER: To give me advice now? VICTORIA: If you were going to create a StoryFile for when you were starting out if you could be able to ask yourself questions from the future. [laughs] HEATHER: I think it would probably be very interesting to see where I was at, and what I was thinking, what we were dealing with at the time because I think it's some of the things you forget, you know, how you were feeling. We did a lot of video recording back in the early days, especially around different milestones and then different lows and highs. But if I could give myself some advice now, knowing what I know now, it would be your typical don't give up. There are days when you feel like that's it; I can't go any longer. It's not sustainable. You just don't know how it's going to turn out. And you have customers that you're really, really...we're very customer-oriented, so we work really closely with them to make them successful. And there have been times when what they've wanted to do hasn't been something that we were able to achieve entirely. So I would say just keep your head down, keep doing the work every day. Keep moving forward, and just believe in how you're ultimately going to change the world with this. So I think that I believed that 100% ten years ago as well. [laughs] I probably would have said the same thing, actually. There was a woman that had told me she wanted to do a StoryFile with her 10-year-old. And then she wanted to do the same script every five years, but especially do the same thing right before they go to college and then when they come back when they've finished college and do the same interview. I said, "It's a brilliant idea, but why specifically before they go to college and when they get back?" She says, "I want them to see how much they've changed." That makes me cry every time. It's so true. I don't know if you have kids; between Stephen and I, we have five, and they're all 20 to 31. And that time in their lives, from 17 to 22 to 24, you change so radically. I mean, it's almost like you go back, and it's almost like you've got a one-year-old to see how much they changed by the time they're six. It's that radical. I thought that was just a beautiful thing on her part to think of, you know, think of doing. VICTORIA: Yeah, that sounds great. I don't have any kids myself. I do have a two-year-old and a one-year-old niece and nephew. Maybe we'll create one for them when they get a little bit older. HEATHER: Well, then you have to do...is your grandfather their great-grandfather? VICTORIA: No, he's my husband's grandpa, actually. HEATHER: Because when you do your grandfather, then they'll get to know them. You know, there's something about our identity, and it's made up of our parents, you know, our lives, our influences on our lives, and everybody that lived before us. So our point is, why not get to know those people the best way you can? And is that by reading their story? Is it listening to a voicemail that they left you before they passed away in order to get a sense of who they are? Or is it a video of them on a vacation, you know, a video clip? Or is it a story? Or would you want a StoryFile where you can actually have a conversation? You can feel as if you're sitting down at a kitchen table, talking and asking them questions about their life. We want you to do it with everybody, [laughs] even your boss. [laughter] VICTORIA: Right? I think it's a hugely powerful way to connect with people. And if I can get my grandpa to stop watching tennis for long enough to do it, I'll do it. [laughs] HEATHER: I definitely guarantee you can do that. [laughs] VICTORIA: Right? I think we can. I think we can do it. I think you'll enjoy it as much as I will. So I really appreciate you sharing this capability with us. And is there a way you want to shout out how people can connect with the tool? HEATHER: Go to storyfile.com. If it's for your family, for you personally, go to StoryFile Life from that website. And if you're a business, you can go to Conversa also from that website and ask for a free demo. VICTORIA: Excellent. And is there anything you want to give as a final takeaway to our listeners today? HEATHER: It's easy to do. And it's always better to personally connect with someone if you can. Give them the opportunity to really see you, and listen to you, and hear you, the real you. And it doesn't take a lot of time. Everyone has a story to tell or knowledge to impart, experiences to talk about. There's no one on the planet that doesn't, honestly. But you probably doing these podcasts every one you talk to you learn from. It's sharing our knowledge. It's sharing humanity's experiences and knowledge so that we absorb that and we have that. It influences us, hopefully, in a good way. VICTORIA: I think that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing with us and being with us here today. HEATHER: Thank you for having me. Keep up the great work, you guys. VICTORIA: Oh, thank you. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Heather Maio-Smith.

Leonard S. Johnson is the Founder and CEO of AIEDC, a 5G Cloud Mobile App Maker and Service Provider with Machine Learning to help small and midsize businesses create their own iOS and Android mobile apps with no-code or low-code so they can engage and service their customer base, as well as provide front and back office digitization services for small businesses. Victoria talks to Leonard about using artificial intelligence for good, bringing the power of AI to local economics, and truly democratizing AI. The Artificial Intelligence Economic Development Corporation (AIEDC) (https://netcapital.com/companies/aiedc) Follow AIEDC on Twitter (https://twitter.com/netcapital), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/netcapital/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Netcapital/), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/aiedc/). Follow Leonard on Twitter (https://twitter.com/LeonardSJ) and LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/leonardsjohnson84047/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Leonard S. Johnson or LS, Founder and CEO AIEDC, a 5G Cloud Mobile App Maker and Service Provider with Machine Learning to help small and midsize businesses create their own iOS and Android mobile apps with no-code or low-code so they can engage and service their customer base, as well as provide front and back office digitization services for small businesses. Leonard, thanks for being with us today. LEONARD: Thank you for having me, Victoria. VICTORIA: I should say LS, thank you for being with us today. LEONARD: It's okay. It's fine. VICTORIA: Great. So tell us a little more about AIEDC. LEONARD: Well, AIEDC stands for Artificial Intelligence Economic Development Corporation. And the original premise that I founded it for...I founded it after completing my postgraduate work at Stanford, and that was 2016. And it was to use AI for economic development, and therefore use AI for good versus just hearing about artificial intelligence and some of the different movies that either take over the world, and Skynet, and watch data privacy, and these other things which are true, and it's very evident, they exist, and they're out there. But at the end of the day, I've always looked at life as a growth strategy and the improvement of what we could do and focusing on what we could do practically. You do it tactically, then you do it strategically over time, and you're able to implement things. That's why I think we keep building collectively as humanity, no matter what part of the world you're in. VICTORIA: Right. So you went to Stanford, and you're from South Central LA. And what about that background led you to pursue AI for good in particular? LEONARD: So growing up in the inner city of Los Angeles, you know, that South Central area, Compton area, it taught me a lot. And then after that, after I completed high school...and not in South Central because I moved around a lot. I grew up with a single mother, never knew my real father, and then my home life with my single mother wasn't good because of just circumstances all the time. And so I just started understanding that even as a young kid, you put your brain...you utilize something because you had two choices. It's very simple or binary, you know, A or B. A, you do something with yourself, or B, you go out and be social in a certain neighborhood. And I'm African American, so high probability that you'll end up dead, or in a gang, or in crime because that's what it was at that time. It's just that's just a situation. Or you're able to challenge those energies and put them toward a use that's productive and positive for yourself, and that's what I did, which is utilizing a way to learn. I could always pick up things when I was very young. And a lot of teachers, my younger teachers, were like, "You're very, very bright," or "You're very smart." And there weren't many programs because I'm older than 42. So there weren't as many programs as there are today. So I really like all of the programs. So I want to clarify the context. Today there's a lot more engagement and identification of kids that might be sharper, smarter, whatever their personal issues are, good or bad. And it's a way to sort of separate them. So you're not just teaching the whole group as a whole and putting them all in one basket, but back then, there was not. And so I just used to go home a lot, do a lot of reading, do a lot of studying, and just knick-knack with things in tech. And then I just started understanding that even as a young kid in the inner city, you see economics very early, but they don't understand that's really what they're studying. They see economics. They can see inflation because making two ends meet is very difficult. They may see gang violence and drugs or whatever it might end up being. And a lot of that, in my opinion, is always an underlining economic foundation. And so people would say, "Oh, why is this industry like this?" And so forth. "Why does this keep happening?" It's because they can't function. And sometimes, it's just them and their family, but they can't function because it's an economic system. So I started focusing on that and then went into the Marine Corps. And then, after the Marine Corps, I went to Europe. I lived in Europe for a while to do my undergrad studies in the Netherlands in Holland. VICTORIA: So having that experience of taking a challenge or taking these forces around you and turning into a force for good, that's led you to bring the power of AI to local economics. And is that the direction that you went eventually? LEONARD: So economics was always something that I understood and had a fascination prior to even starting my company. I started in 2017. And we're crowdfunding now, and I can get into that later. But I self-funded it since 2017 to...I think I only started crowdfunding when COVID hit, which was 2020, and just to get awareness and people out there because I couldn't go to a lot of events. So I'm like, okay, how can I get exposure? But yeah, it was a matter of looking at it from that standpoint of economics always factored into me, even when I was in the military when I was in the Marine Corps. I would see that...we would go to different countries, and you could just see the difference of how they lived and survived. And another side note, my son's mother is from Ethiopia, Africa. And I have a good relationship with my son and his mother, even though we've been apart for over 15 years, divorced for over 15 years or so or longer. But trying to keep that, you can just see this dichotomy. You go out to these different countries, and even in the military, it's just so extreme from the U.S. and any part of the U.S, but that then always focused on economics. And then technology, I just always kept up with, like, back in the '80s when the mobile brick phone came out, I had to figure out how to get one. [laughs] And then I took it apart and then put it back together just to see how it works, so yeah. But it was a huge one, by the way. I mean, it was like someone got another and broke it, and they thought it was broken. And they're like, "This doesn't work. You could take this piece of junk." I'm like, "Okay." [laughs] VICTORIA: Like, oh, great. I sure will, yeah. Now, I love technology. And I think a lot of people perceive artificial intelligence as being this super futuristic, potentially harmful, maybe economic negative impact. So what, from your perspective, can AI do for local economics or for people who may not have access to that advanced technology? LEONARD: Well, that's the key, and that's what we're looking to do with AIEDC. When you look at the small and midsize businesses, it's not what people think, or their perception is. A lot of those in the U.S. it's the backbone of the United States, our economy, literally. And in other parts of the world, it's the same where it could be a one or two mom-and-pop shops. That's where that name comes from; it's literally two people. And they're trying to start something to build their own life over time because they're using their labor to maybe build wealth or somehow a little bit not. And when I mean wealth, it's always relative. It's enough to sustain themselves or just put food on the table and be able to control their own destiny to the best of their ability. And so what we're looking to do is make a mobile app maker that's 5G that lives in the cloud, that's 5G compliant, that will allow small and midsize businesses to create their own iOS or Android mobile app with no-code or low-code, basically like creating an email. That's how simple we want it to be. When you create your own email, whether you use Microsoft, Google, or whatever you do, and you make it that simple. And there's a simple version, and there could be complexity added to it if they want. That would be the back office digitization or customization, but that then gets them on board with digitization. It's intriguing that McKinsey just came out with a report stating that in 2023, in order to be economically viable, and this was very recent, that all companies would need to have a digitization strategy. And so when you look at small businesses, and you look at things like COVID-19, or the COVID current ongoing issue and that disruption, this is global. And you look at even the Ukrainian War or the Russian-Ukrainian War, however you term it, invasion, war, special operation, these are disruptions. And then, on top of that, we look at climate change which has been accelerating in the last two years more so than it was prior to this that we've experienced. So this is something that everyone can see is self-evident. I'm not even focused on the cause of the problem. My brain and the way I think, and my team, we like to focus on solutions. My chairman is a former program director of NASA who managed 1,200 engineers that built the International Space Station; what was it? 20-30 years ago, however, that is. And he helped lead and build that from Johnson Center. And so you're focused on solutions because if you're building the International Space Station, you can only focus on solutions and anticipate the problems but not dwell on them. And so that kind of mindset is what I am, and it's looking to help small businesses do that to get them on board with digitization and then in customization. And then beyond that, use our system, which is called M.I.N.D. So we own these...we own patents, three patents, trademarks, and service marks related to artificial intelligence that are in the field of economics. And we will utilize DEVS...we plan to do that which is a suite of system specifications to predict regional economic issues like the weather in a proactive way, not reactive. A lot of economic situations are reactive. It's reactive to the Federal Reserve raising interest rates or lowering rates, Wall Street, you know, moving money or not moving money. It is what it is. I mean, I don't judge it. I think it's like financial engineering, and that's fine. It's profitability. But then, at the end of the day, if you're building something, it's like when we're going to go to space. When rockets launch, they have to do what they're intended to do. Like, I know that Blue Origin just blew up recently. Or if they don't, they have a default, and at least I heard that the Blue Origin satellite, if it were carrying passengers, the passengers would have been safe because it disembarked when it detected its own problem. So when you anticipate these kinds of problems and you apply them to the local small business person, you can help them forecast and predict better like what weather prediction has done. And we're always improving that collectively for weather prediction, especially with climate change, so that it can get to near real-time as soon as possible or close a window versus two weeks out versus two days out as an example. VICTORIA: Right. Those examples of what you call a narrow economic prediction. LEONARD: Correct. It is intriguing when you say narrow economic because it wouldn't be narrow AI. But it would actually get into AGI if you added more variables, which we would. The more variables you added in tenancies...so if you're looking at events, the system events discretion so discrete event system specification you would specify what they really, really need to do to have those variables. But at some point, you're working on a system, what I would call AGI. But AGI, in my mind, the circles I run in at least or at least most of the scientists I talk to it's not artificial superintelligence. And so the general public thinks AGI...and I've said this to Stephen Ibaraki, who's the founder of AI for Good at Global Summit at the United Nations, and one of his interviews as well. It's just Artificial General Intelligence, I think, has been put out a lot by Hollywood and entertainment and so forth, and some scientists say certain things. We won't be at artificial superintelligence. We might get to Artificial General Intelligence by 2030 easily, in my opinion. But that will be narrow AI, but it will cover what we look at it in the field as cross-domain, teaching a system to look at different variables because right now, it's really narrow. Like natural language processing, it's just going to look at language and infer from there, and then you've got backward propagation that's credit assignment and fraud and detection. Those are narrow data points. But when you start looking at something cross-domain...who am I thinking of? Pedro Domingos who wrote the Master Algorithm, which actually, Xi Jinping has a copy of, the President of China, on his bookshelf in his office because they've talked about that, and these great minds because Stephen Ibaraki has interviewed these...and the founder of Google Brain and all of these guys. And so there's always this debate in the scientific community of what is narrow AI what it's not. But at the end of the day, I just like Pedro's definition of it because he says the master algorithm will be combining all five, so you're really crossing domains, which AI hasn't done that. And to me, that will be AGI, but that's not artificial superintelligence. And artificial superintelligence is when it becomes very, you know, like some of the movies could say, if we as humanity just let it run wild, it could be crazy. VICTORIA: One of my questions is the future of AI more like iRobot or Bicentennial Man? LEONARD: Well, you know, interesting. That's a great question, Victoria. I see most of AI literally as iRobot, as a tool more than anything, except at the end when it implied...so it kind of did two things in that movie, but a wonderful movie to bring up. And I like Will Smith perfectly. Well, I liked him a lot more before -- VICTORIA: I think iRobot is really the better movie. LEONARD: Yeah, so if people haven't seen iRobot, I liked Will Smith, the actor. But iRobot showed you two things, and it showed you, one, it showed hope. Literally, the robot...because a lot of people put AI and robots. And AI by itself is the brain or the mind; I should say hardware are the robots or the brain. Software...AI in and of itself is software. It's the mind itself. That's why we have M.I.N.D Machine Intelligence NeuralNetwork Database. We literally have that. That's our acronym and our slogan and everything. And it's part of our patents. But its machine intelligence is M.I.N.D, and we own that, you know; the company owns it. And so M.I.N.D...we always say AI powered by M.I.N.D. We're talking about that software side of, like, what your mind does; it iterates and thinks, the ability to think itself. Now it's enclosed within a structure called, you know, for the human, it's called a brain, the physical part of it, and that brain is enclosed within the body. So when you look at robots...and my chairman was the key person for robotics for the International Space Station. So when you look at robotics, you are putting that software into hardware, just like your cell phone. You have the physical, and then you have the actual iOS, which is the operating system. So when you think about that, yeah, iRobot was good because it showed how these can be tools, and they were very, in the beginning of the movie, very helpful, very beneficial to humanity. But then it went to a darker side and showed where V.I.K.I, which was an acronym as well, I think was Virtual Interactive Kinetic technology of something. Yeah, I believe it was Virtual Interactive Kinetic inference or technology or something like that, V.I.K.I; I forgot the last I. But that's what it stood for. It was an acronym to say...and then V.I.K.I just became all aware and started killing everyone with robots and just wanted to say, you know, this is futile. But then, at the very, very end, V.I.K.I learned from itself and says, "Okay, I guess this isn't right." Or the other robot who could think differently argued with V.I.K.I, and they destroyed her. And it made V.I.K.I a woman in the movie, and then the robot was the guy. But that shows that it can get out of hand. But it was intriguing to me that they had her contained within one building. This wouldn't be artificial superintelligence. And I think sometimes Hollywood says, "Just take over everything from one building," no. It wouldn't be on earth if it could. But that is something we always have to think about. We have to think about the worst-case scenarios. I think every prudent scientist or business person or anyone should do that, even investors, I mean, if you're investing something for the future. But you also don't focus on it. You don't think about the best-case scenario, either. But there's a lot of dwelling on the worst-case scenario versus the good that we can do given we're looking at where humanity is today. I mean, we're in 2022, and we're still fighting wars that we fought in 1914. VICTORIA: Right. Which brings me to my next question, which is both, what are the most exciting opportunities to innovate in the AI space currently? And conversely, what are the biggest challenges that are facing innovation in that field? LEONARD: Ooh, that's a good question. I think, in my opinion, it's almost the same answer; one is...but I'm in a special field. And I'm surprised there's not a lot of competition for our company. I mean, it's very good for me and the company's sense. It's like when Mark Zuckerberg did Facebook, there was Friendster, and there was Myspace, but they were different. They were different verticals. And I think Mark figured out how to do it horizontally, good or bad. I'm talking about the beginning of when he started Facebook, now called Meta. But I'm saying utilizing AI in economics because a lot of times AI is used in FinTech and consumerism, but not economic growth where we're really talking about growing something organically, or it's called endogenous growth. Because I studied Paul Romer's work, who won the Nobel Prize in 2018 for economic science. And he talked about the nature of ideas. And we were working on something like that in Stanford. And I put out a book in 2017 of January talking about cryptocurrencies, artificial intelligence but about the utilization of it, but not the speculation. I never talked about speculation. I don't own any crypto; I would not. It's only once it's utilized in its PureTech form will it create something that it was envisioned to do by the protocol that Satoshi Nakamoto sort of created. And it still fascinates me that people follow Bitcoin protocol, even for the tech and the non-tech, but they don't know who Satoshi is. But yeah, it's a white paper. You're just following a white paper because I think logically, the world is going towards that iteration of evolution. And that's how AI could be utilized for good in an area to focus on it with economics and solving current problems. And then going forward to build a new economy where it's not debt-based driven or consumer purchase only because that leaves a natural imbalance in the current world structure. The western countries are great. We do okay, and we go up and down. But the emerging and developing countries just get stuck, and they seem to go into a circular loop. And then there are wars as a result of these things and territory fights and so forth. So that's an area I think where it could be more advanced is AI in the economic realm, not so much the consumer FinTech room, which is fine. But consumer FinTech, in my mind, is you're using AI to process PayPal. That's where I think Elon just iterated later because PayPal is using it for finance. You're just moving things back and forth, and you're just authenticating everything. But then he starts going on to SpaceX next because he's like, well, let me use technology in a different way. And I do think he's using AI on all of his projects now. VICTORIA: Right. So how can that tech solve real problems today? Do you see anything even particular about Southern California, where we're both at right now, where you think AI could help predict some outcomes for small businesses or that community? LEONARD: I'm looking to do it regionally then globally. So I'm part of this Southern Cal Innovation Hub, which is just AI. It's an artificial intelligence coordination between literally San Diego County, Orange County, and Los Angeles County. And so there's a SoCal Innovation Hub that's kind of bringing it together. But there are all three groups, like; I think the CEO in Orange County is the CEO of Leadership Alliance. And then in San Diego, there's another group I can't remember their name off the top of my head, and I'm talking about the county itself. So each one's representing a county because, you know. And then there's one in Northern California that I'm also associated with where if you look at California as its own economy in the U.S., it's still pretty significant as an economic cycle in the United States, period. That's why so many politicians like California because they can sway the votes. So yeah, we're looking to do that once, you know, we are raising capital. We're crowdfunding currently. Our total raise is about 6 million. And so we're talking to venture capitalists, private, high net worth investors as well. Our federal funding is smaller. It's just like several hundred thousand because most people can only invest a few thousand. But I always like to try to give back. If you tell people...if you're Steve Jobs, like, okay, I've got this Apple company. In several years, you'll see the potential. And people are like, ah, whatever, but then they kick themselves 15 years later. [laughs] Like, oh, I wish I thought about that Apple stock for $15 when I could. But you give people a chance, and you get the word out, and you see what happens. Once you build a system, you share it. There are some open-source projects. But I think the open source, like OpenAI, as an example, Elon Musk funds that as well as Microsoft. They both put a billion dollars into it. It is an open-source project. OpenAI claims...but some of the research does go back to Microsoft to be able to see it. And DeepMind is another research for AI, but they're owned by Google. And so, I'm also very focused on democratizing artificial intelligence for the benefit of everyone. I really believe that needs to be democratized in a sense of tying it to economics and making it utilized for everyone that may need it for the benefit of humanity where it's profitable and makes money, but it's not just usurping. MID-ROLL AD: As life moves online, brick-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: With that democratizing it, is there also a need to increase the understanding of the ethics around it and when there are certain known use cases for AI where it actually is discriminatory and plays to systemic problems in our society? Are you familiar with that as well? LEONARD: Yes, absolutely. Well, that's my whole point. And, Victoria, you just hit the nail on the head. Truly democratizing AI in my mind and in my brain the way it works is it has opened up for everyone. Because if you really roll it back, okay, companies now we're learning...we used to call it several years ago UGC, User Generated Content. And now a lot of people are like, okay, if you're on Facebook, you're the product, right? Or if you're on Instagram, you're the product. And they're using you, and you're using your data to sell, et cetera, et cetera. But user-generated content it's always been that. It's just a matter of the sharing of the economic. That's why I keep going back to economics. So if people were, you know, you wouldn't have to necessarily do advertising if you had stakeholders with advertising, the users and the company, as an example. If it's a social media company, just throwing it out there, so let's say you have a social media...and this has been talked about, but I'm not the first to introduce this. This has been talked about for over ten years, at least over 15 years. And it's you share as a triangle in three ways. So you have the user and everything else. So take your current social media, and I won't pick on Facebook, but I'll just use them, Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. Twitter's having issues recently because Elon is trying to buy them or get out of buying them. But you just looked at that data, and then you share with the user base. What's the revenue model? And there needs to be one; let me be very clear. There has to be incentive, and there has to be profitability for people that joined you earlier, you know, joined the corporation, or become shareholders, or investors, or become users, or become customers. They have to be able to have some benefit, not extreme greater than everyone else but a great benefit from coming in earlier by what they contributed at the time. And that is what makes this system holistic in my opinion, like Reddit or any of these bloggers. But you make it where they use their time and the users, and you share it with the company and then the data and so forth, and whatever revenue economic model you have, and it's a sort of a three-way split. It's just not always equal. And that's something that I think in economics, we're still on a zero-sum game, I win, you lose sort of economic model globally. That's why there's a winner of a war and a loser of a war. But in reality, as you know, Victoria, there are no winners of any war. So it's funny, [laughs] I was just saying, well, you know, because of the economic mode, but Von Neumann, who talked about that, also talked about something called a non-zero-sum game when he talked about it in mathematics that you can win, and I can win; we just don't win equally because they never will match that. So if I win, I may win 60; you win 40. Or you may win 60, I win 40, and we agree to settle on that. It's an agreement versus I'm just going to be 99, and you'll be 1%, or I'm just going to be 100, and you're at 0. And I think that our economic model tends to be a lot of that, like, when you push forth and there needs to be more of that. When you talk about the core of economics...and I go way back, you know, prior to the Federal Reserve even being started. I just look at the world, and it's always sort of been this land territorial issue of what goods are under the country. But we've got technology where we can mitigate a lot of things and do the collective of help the earth, and then let's go off to space, all of space. That's where my brain is focused on. VICTORIA: Hmm. Oh yeah, that makes sense to me. I think that we're all going to have to evolve our economic models here in the future. I wonder, too, as you're building your startup and you're building your company, what are some of the technology trade-offs you're having to make in the stack of the AI software that you're building? LEONARD: Hmm. Good question. But clarify, this may be a lot deeper dive because that's a general question. And I don't want to...yeah, go ahead. VICTORIA: Because when you're building AI, and you're going to be processing a lot of data, I know many data scientists that are familiar with tools like Jupyter Notebooks, and R, and Python. And one issue that I'm aware of is keeping the environments the same, so everything that goes into building your app and having those infrastructure as code for your data science applications, being able to afford to process all that data. [laughs] And there are just so many factors that go into building an AI app versus building something that's more easy, like a web-based user form. So just curious if you've encountered those types of trade-offs or questions about, okay, how are we going to actually build an app that we can put out on everybody's phone and that works responsibly? LEONARD: Oh, okay. So let me be very clear, but I won't give too much of the secret sauce away. But I can define this technically because this is a technical audience. This is not...so what you're really talking about is two things, and I'm clear about this, though. So the app maker won't really read and write a lot of data. It'll just be the app where people could just get on board digitalization simple, you know, process payments, maybe connect with someone like American Express square, MasterCard, whatever. And so that's just letting them function. That's sort of small FinTech in my mind, you know, just transaction A to B, B to A, et cetera. And it doesn't need to be peer-to-peer and all of the crypto. It doesn't even need to go that level yet. That's just level one. Then they will sign up for a service, which is because we're really focused on artificial intelligence as a service. And that, to me, is the next iteration for AI. I've been talking about this for about three or four years now, literally, in different conferences and so forth for people who haven't hit it. But that we will get to that point where AI will become AI as a service, just like SaaS is. We're still at the, you know, most of the world on the legacy systems are still software as a service. We're about to hit AI as a service because the world is evolving. And this is true; they did shut it down. But you did have okay, so there are two case points which I can bring up. So JP Morgan did create something called a Coin, and it was using AI. And it was a coin like crypto, coin like a token, but they called it a coin. But it could process, I think, something like...I may be off on this, so to the sticklers that will be listening, please, I'm telling you I may be off on the exact quote, but I think it was about...it was something crazy to me, like 200,000 of legal hours and seconds that it could process because it was basically taking the corporate legal structure of JP Morgan, one of the biggest banks. I think they are the biggest bank in the U.S. JPMorgan Chase. And they were explaining in 2017 how we created this, and it's going to alleviate this many hours of legal work for the bank. And I think politically; something happened because they just pulled away. I still have the original press release when they put it out, and it was in the media. And then it went away. I mean, no implementation [laughs] because I think there was going to be a big loss of jobs for it. And they basically would have been white-collar legal jobs, most specifically lawyers literally that were working for the bank. And when they were talking towards investment, it was a committee. I was at a conference. And I was like, I was fascinated by that. And they were basically using Bitcoin protocol as the tokenization protocol, but they were using AI to process it. And it was basically looking at...because legal contracts are basically...you can teach it with natural language processing and be able to encode and almost output it itself and then be able to speak with each other. Another case point was Facebook. They had...what was it? Two AI systems. They began to create their own language. I don't know if you remember that story or heard about it, and Facebook shut it down. And this was more like two years ago, I think, when they were saying Facebook was talking, you know, when they were Facebook, not Meta, so maybe it was three years ago. And they were talking, and they were like, "Oh, Facebook has a language. It's talking to each other." And it created its own little site language because it was two AI bots going back and forth. And then the engineers at Facebook said, "We got to shut this down because this is kind of getting out of the box." So when you talk about AI as a service, yes, the good and the bad, and what you take away is AWS, Oracle, Google Cloud they do have services where it doesn't need to cost you as much anymore as it used to in the beginning if you know what you're doing ahead of time. And you're not just running iterations or data processing because you're doing guesswork versus, in my opinion, versus actually knowing exactly specifically what you're looking for and the data set you're looking to get out of it. And then you're talking about just basically putting in containers and clustering it because it gets different operations. And so what you're really looking at is something called an N-scale graph data that can process data in maybe sub seconds at that level, excuse me. And one of my advisors is the head of that anyway at AGI laboratory. So he's got an N graph database that can process...when we implement it, we'll be able to process data at the petabyte level at sub-seconds, and it can run on platforms like Azure or AWS, and so forth. VICTORIA: Oh, that's interesting. So it sounds like cloud providers are making compute services more affordable. You've got data, the N-scale graph data, that can run more transactions more quickly. And I'm curious if you see any future trends since I know you're a futurist around quantum computing and how that could affect capacity for -- LEONARD: Oh [laughs] We haven't even gotten there yet. Yes. Well, if you look at N-scale, if you know what you're doing and you know what to look for, then the quantum just starts going across different domains as well but at a higher hit rate. So there's been some quantum computers online. There's been several...well, Google has their quantum computer coming online, and they've been working on it, and Google has enough data, of course, to process. So yeah, they've got that data, lots of data. And quantum needs, you know, if it's going to do something, it needs lots of data. But then the inference will still be, I think, quantum is very good at processing large, large, large amounts of data. We can just keep going if you really have a good quantum computer. But it's really narrow. You have to tell it exactly what it wants, and it will do it in what we call...which is great like in P or NP square or P over NP which is you want to do it in polynomial time, not non-polynomial, polynomial time which is...now speaking too fast. Okay, my brain is going faster than my lips. Let me slow it down. So when you start thinking about processing, if we as humans, let's say if I was going to process A to Z, and I'm like, okay, here is this equation, if I tell you it takes 1000 years, it's of no use to us, to me and you Victoria because we're living now. Now, the earth may benefit in 1000 years, but it's still of no use. But if I could take this large amount of data and have it process within minutes, you know, worst case hours...but then I'll even go down to seconds or sub-seconds, then that's really a benefit to humanity now, today in present term. And so, as a futurist, yes, as the world, we will continue to add data. We're doing it every day, and we already knew this was coming ten years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, even actually in the '50s when we were in the AI winter. We're now in AI summer. In my words, I call it the AI summer. So as you're doing this, that data is going to continue to increase, and quantum will be needed for that. But then the specific need...quantum is very good at looking at a specific issue, specifically for that very narrow. Like if you were going to do the trajectory to Jupiter or if we wanted to send a probe to Jupiter or something, I think we're sending something out there now from NASA, and so forth, then you need to process all the variables, but it's got one trajectory. It's going one place only. VICTORIA: Gotcha. Well, that's so interesting. I'm glad I asked you that question. And speaking of rockets going off to space, have you ever seen a SpaceX launch from LA? LEONARD: Actually, I saw one land but not a launch. I need to go over there. It's not too far from me. But you got to give credit where credit's due and Elon has a reusable rocket. See, that's where technology is solving real-world problems. Because NASA and I have, you know, my chairman, his name is Alexander Nawrocki, you know, he's Ph.D., but I call him Rocki. He goes by Rocki like I go by LS. But it's just we talk about this like NASA's budget. [laughs] How can you reduce this? And Elon says they will come up with a reusable rocket that won't cost this much and be able to...and that's the key. That was the kind of Holy Grail where you can reuse the same rocket itself and then add some little variables on top of it. But the core, you wouldn't constantly be paying for it. And so I think where the world is going...and let me be clear, Elon pushes a lot out there. He's just very good at it. But I'm also that kind of guy that I know that Tesla itself was started by two Stanford engineers. Elon came on later, like six months, and then he invested, and he became CEO, which was a great investment for Elon Musk. And then CEO I just think it just fit his personality because it was something he loved. But I also have studied for years Nikola Tesla, and I understand what his contributions created where we are today with all the patents that he had. And so he's basically the father of WiFi and why we're able to communicate in a lot of this. We've perfected it or improved it, but it was created by him in the 1800s. VICTORIA: Right. And I don't think he came from as fortunate a background as Elon Musk, either. Sometimes I wonder what I could have done born in similar circumstances. [laughter] And you certainly have made quite a name for yourself. LEONARD: Well, I'm just saying, yeah, he came from very...he did come from a poor area of Russia which is called the Russian territory, to be very honest, Eastern Europe, definitely Eastern Europe. But yeah, I don't know once you start thinking about that [laughs]. You're making me laugh, Victoria. You're making me laugh. VICTORIA: No, I actually went camping, a backpacking trip to the Catalina Island, and there happened to be a SpaceX launch that night, and we thought it was aliens because it looked wild. I didn't realize what it was. But then we figured it was a launch, so it was really great. I love being here and being close to some of this technology and the advancements that are going on. I'm curious if you have some thoughts about...I hear a lot about or you used to hear about Silicon Valley Tech like very Northern California, San Francisco focus. But what is the difference in SoCal? What do you find in those two communities that makes SoCal special? [laughs] LEONARD: Well, I think it's actually...so democratizing AI. I've been in a moment like that because, in 2015, I was in Dubai, and they were talking about creating silicon oasis. And so there's always been this model of, you know, because they were always, you know, the whole Palo Alto thing is people would say it and it is true. I mean, I experienced it. Because I was in a two-year program, post-graduate program executive, but we would go up there...I wasn't living up there. I had to go there maybe once every month for like three weeks, every other month or something. But when you're up there, it is the air in the water. It's just like, people just breathe certain things. Because around the world, and I would travel to Japan, and China, and other different parts of Asia, Vietnam, et cetera and in Africa of course, and let's say you see this and people are like, so what is it about Silicon Valley? And of course, the show, there is the Hollywood show about it, which is pretty a lot accurate, which is interesting, the HBO show. But you would see that, and you would think, how are they able to just replicate this? And a lot of it is a convergence. By default, they hear about these companies' access because the key is access, and that's what we're...like this podcast. I love the concept around it because giving awareness, knowledge, and access allows other people to spread it and democratize it. So it's just not one physical location, or you have to be in that particular area only to benefit. I mean, you could benefit in that area, or you could benefit from any part of the world. But since they started, people would go there; engineers would go there. They built company PCs, et cetera. Now that's starting to spread in other areas like Southern Cal are creating their own innovation hubs to be able to bring all three together. And those three are the engineers and founders, and idea makers and startups. And you then need the expertise. I'm older than 42; I'm not 22. [laughs] So I'm just keeping it 100, keeping it real. So I'm not coming out at 19. I mean, my son's 18. And I'm not coming out, okay, this my new startup, bam, give me a billion dollars, I'm good. And let me just write off the next half. But when you look at that, there's that experience because even if you look at Mark Zuckerberg, I always tell people that give credit where credit is due. He brought a senior team with him when he was younger, and he didn't have the experience. And his only job has been Facebook out of college. He's had no other job. And now he's been CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation; that's a fact. Sometimes it hurts people's feelings. Like, you know what? He's had no other job. Now that can be good and bad, [laughs] but he's had no other jobs. And so that's just a credit, like, if you can surround yourself with the right people and be focused on something, it can work to the good or the bad for your own personal success but then having that open architecture. And I think he's been trying to learn and others versus like an Elon Musk, who embraces everything. He's just very open in that sense. But then you have to come from these different backgrounds. But let's say Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, let's take a guy like myself or whatever who didn't grow up with all of that who had to make these two ends meet, figure out how to do the next day, not just get to the next year, but get to the next day, get to the next week, get to the next month, then get to the next year. It just gives a different perspective as well. Humanity's always dealing with that. Because we had a lot of great engineers back in the early 1900s. They're good or bad, you know, you did have Nikola Tesla. You had Edison. I'm talking about circa around 1907 or 1909, prior to World War I. America had a lot of industries. They were the innovators then, even though there were innovations happening in Europe, and Africa, and China, as well and Asia. But the innovation hub kind of created as the America, quote, unquote, "industrial revolution." And I think we're about to begin a new revolution sort of tech and an industrial revolution that's going to take us to maybe from 20...we're 2022 now, but I'll say it takes us from 2020 to 2040 in my head. VICTORIA: So now that communities can really communicate across time zones and locations, maybe the hubs are more about solving specific problems. There are regional issues. That makes a lot more sense. LEONARD: Yes. And collaborating together, working together, because scientists, you know, COVID taught us that. People thought you had to be in a certain place, but then a lot of collaboration came out of COVID; even though it was bad globally, even though we're still bad, if people were at home, they start collaborating, and scientists will talk to scientists, you know, businesses, entrepreneurs, and so forth. But if Orange County is bringing together the mentors, the venture capital, or at least Southern California innovation and any other place, I want to say that's not just Silicon Valley because Silicon Valley already has it; we know that. And that's that region. It's San Jose all the way up to...I forgot how far north it's past San Francisco, actually. But it's that region of area where they encompass the real valley of Silicon Valley if you're really there. And you talk about these regions. Yes, I think we're going to get to a more regional growth area, and then it'll go more micro to actually cities later in the future. But regional growth, I think it's going to be extremely important globally in the very near term. I'm literally saying from tomorrow to the next, maybe ten years, regional will really matter. And then whatever you have can scale globally anyway, like this podcast we're doing. This can be distributed to anyone in the world, and they can listen at ease when they have time. VICTORIA: Yeah, I love it. It's both exciting and also intimidating. [laughs] And you mentioned your son a little bit earlier. And I'm curious, as a founder and someone who spent a good amount of time in graduate and Ph.D. programs, if you feel like it's easy to connect with your son and maintain that balance and focusing on your family while you're building a company and investing in yourself very heavily. LEONARD: Well, I'm older, [laughs] so it's okay. I mean, I've mentored him, you know. And me and his mom have a relationship that works. I would say we have a better relationship now than when we were together. It is what it is. But we have a communication level. And I think she was just a great person because I never knew my real father, ever. I supposedly met him when I was two or one; I don't know. But I have no memories, no photos, nothing. And that was just the environment I grew up in. But with my son, he knows the truth of everything about that. He's actually in college. I don't like to name the school because it's on the East Coast, and it's some Ivy League school; that's what I will say. And he didn't want to stay on the West Coast because I'm in Orange County and his mom's in Orange County. He's like, "I want to get away from both of you people." [laughter] And that's a joke, but he's very independent. He's doing well. When he graduated high school, he graduated with 4.8 honors. He made the valedictorian. He was at a STEM school. VICTORIA: Wow. LEONARD: And he has a high GPA. He's studying computer science and economics as well at an Ivy League, and he's already made two or three apps at college. And I said, "You're not Mark, so calm down." [laughter] But anyway, that was a recent conversation. I won't go there. But then some people say, "LS, you should be so happy." What is it? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. But this was something he chose around 10 or 11. I'm like, whatever you want to do, you do; I'll support you no matter what. And his mom says, "Oh no, I think you programmed him to be like you." [laughs] I'm like, no, I can't do that. I just told him the truth about life. And he's pretty tall. VICTORIA: You must have -- LEONARD: He played basketball in high school a lot. I'm sorry? VICTORIA: I was going to say you must have inspired him. LEONARD: Yeah. Well, he's tall. He did emulate me in a lot of ways. I don't know why. I told him just be yourself. But yes, he does tell me I'm an inspiration to that; I think because of all the struggles I've gone through when I was younger. And you're always going through struggles. I mean, it's just who you are. I tell people, you know, you're building a company. You have success. You can see the future, but sometimes people can't see it, [laughs] which I shouldn't really say, but I'm saying anyway because I do that. I said this the other night to some friends. I said, "Oh, Jeff Bezo's rocket blew up," going, you know, Blue Origin rocket or something. And then I said Elon will tell Jeff, "Well, you only have one rocket blow up. I had three, [laughter] SpaceX had three." So these are billionaires talking to billionaires about, you know, most people don't even care. You're worth X hundred billion dollars. I mean, they're worth 100 billion-plus, right? VICTORIA: Right. LEONARD: I think Elon is around 260 billion, and Jeff is 160 or something. Who cares about your rocket blowing up? But it's funny because the issues are still always going to be there. I've learned that. I'm still learning. It doesn't matter how much wealth you have. You just want to create wealth for other people and better their lives. The more you search on bettering lives, you're just going to have to wake up every day, be humble with it, and treat it as a new day and go forward and solve the next crisis or problem because there will be one. There is not where there are no problems, is what I'm trying to say, this panacea or a utopia where you personally, like, oh yeah, I have all this wealth and health, and I'm just great. Because Elon has had divorce issues, so did Jeff Bezos. So I told my son a lot about this, like, you never get to this world where it's perfect in your head. You're always going to be doing things. VICTORIA: That sounds like an accurate future prediction if I ever heard one. [laughs] Like, there will be problems. No matter where you end up or what you choose to do, you'll still have problems. They'll just be different. [laughs] LEONARD: Yeah, and then this is for women and men. It means you don't give up. You just keep hope alive, and you keep going. And I believe personally in God, and I'm a scientist who actually does. But I look at it more in a Godly aspect. But yeah, I just think you just keep going, and you keep building because that's what we do as humanity. It's what we've done. It's why we're here. And we're standing on the shoulders of giants, and I just always considered that from physicists and everyone. VICTORIA: Great. And if people are interested in building something with you, you have that opportunity right now to invest via the crowdfunding app, correct? LEONARD: Yes, yes, yes. They can do that because the company is still the same company because eventually, we're going to branch out. My complete vision for AIEDC is using artificial intelligence for economic development, and that will spread horizontally, not just vertically. Vertically right now, just focus on just a mobile app maker digitization and get...because there are so many businesses even globally, and I'm not talking only e-commerce. So when I say small to midsize business, it can be a service business, car insurance, health insurance, anything. It doesn't have to be selling a particular widget or project, you know, product. And I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with that, you know, interest rates and consumerism. But I'm not thinking about Shopify, and that's fine, but I'm talking about small businesses. And there's the back office which is there are a lot of tools for back offices for small businesses. But I'm talking about they create their own mobile app more as a way to communicate with their customers, update them with their customers, and that's key, especially if there are disruptions. So let's say that there have been fires in California. In Mississippi or something, they're out of water. In Texas, last year, they had a winter storm, electricity went out. So all of these things are disruptions. This is just in the U.S., And of course, I won't even talk about Pakistan, what's going on there and the flooding and just all these devastating things, or even in China where there's drought where there are these disruptions, and that's not counting COVID disrupts, the cycle of business. It literally does. And it doesn't bubble up until later when maybe the central banks and governments pay attention to it, just like in Japan when that nuclear, unfortunately, that nuclear meltdown happened because of the earthquake; I think it was 2011. And that affected that economy for five years, which is why the government has lower interest rates, negative interest rates, because they have to try to get it back up. But if there are tools and everyone's using more mobile apps and wearables...and we're going to go to the metaverse and all of that. So the internet of things can help communicate that. So when these types of disruptions happen, the flow of business can continue, at least at a smaller level, for an affordable cost for the business. I'm not talking about absorbing costs because that's meaningless to me. VICTORIA: Yeah, well, that sounds like a really exciting project. And I'm so grateful to have this time to chat with you today. Is there anything else you want to leave for our listeners? LEONARD: If they want to get involved, maybe they can go to our crowdfunding page, or if they've got questions, ask about it and spread the word. Because I think sometimes, you know, they talk about the success of all these companies, but a lot of it starts with the founder...but not a founder. If you're talking about a startup, it starts with the founder. But it also stops with the innovators that are around that founder, male or female, whoever they are. And it also starts with their community, building a collective community together. And that's why Silicon Valley is always looked at around the world as this sort of test case of this is how you create something from nothing and make it worth great value in the future. And I think that's starting to really spread around the world, and more people are opening up to this. It's like the crowdfunding concept. I think it's a great idea, like more podcasts. I think this is a wonderful idea, podcasts in and of themselves, so people can learn from people versus where in the past you would only see an interview on the business news network, or NBC, or Fortune, or something like that, and that's all you would understand. But this is a way where organically things can grow. I think the growth will continue, and I think the future's bright. We just have to know that it takes work to get there. VICTORIA: That's great. Thank you so much for saying that and for sharing your time with us today. I learned a lot myself, and I think our listeners will enjoy it as well. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobot.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Leonard S. Johnson.

Hello UK Giant Robots listeners! Our next event allows you to hear from and connect with both Founders and Investors on all things Fundraising. The event will be 1 part panel discussion and 1 part breakout sessions. We hope you can make it! Register today at: tbot.io/fundraising-uk (https://thoughtbot.com/events/fundraising-uk-event?utm_source=socials&utm_medium=socials&utm_campaign=UK%20fundraising%20event) Daniëlle Keeven is VP of Finance at Paddle, the only complete payments infrastructure provider for SaaS companies. Victoria talks to Daniëlle about helping companies with taxes while assuming the liability and risks associated with global tax compliance, financial literacy, and taking proactive measures and steps to manage cost effectively before it is required. Paddle (https://www.paddle.com/) Follow Paddle on Twitter (https://twitter.com/PaddleHQ), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/paddleteam/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/paddlehq/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK1qyXbgE-kcGA4LMGdL7PA), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/paddle/). Follow Daniëlle on Twitter (https://twitter.com/gsandahl) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-keeven/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: Hello, United Kingdom Giant Robots listeners! Our next event allows you to hear from and connect with both founders and investors on all things fundraising. The event will be one part panel discussion and one-part breakout sessions. We hope you can make it. Register today at tbot.io/fundraising-uk. VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Daniëlle Keeven, VP of Finance at Paddle, the only complete payments infrastructure provider for SaaS companies. Daniëlle, thank you for joining us. DANIËLLE: Hi, Victoria. Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yes, I'm excited to have you here and to hear a little bit about your background. I was curious how it was different going from a finance role in a large corporation like Marriott to the startup world and to Paddle. DANIËLLE: Well, Victoria, I was actually quite fortunate because even in the Marriotts and the Hyatts that I've been in in hospitality, I've been exposed to a lot of in the trench type of accounting and finance. Being in the Caribbean and just a Latam market, you learn to look at situations differently and make sure you work towards compliance. So I think that's really groomed me for stepping into the tech space as well, where I think following the money is the first directive of any finance professional walking into a scale-up or startup. So I think it's groomed me for the move. Booking was a little bit easier because it was also a little bit of leisure and travel. When I stepped into a telecom for MessageBird and then Paddle as a payments end-to-end provider of infrastructure, there was a little bit of a challenge there. But I love being part of a company now that's completely a finance product which has really given finance roles a partnership with product and engineering to partner in the way forward and design of the product. VICTORIA: Yes, that's exciting for us as well. And tell us a little bit about Paddle, actually. DANIËLLE: So Paddle is an end-to-end platform. We strive not to just help software companies; we strive to do the work for them to be able to roll out globally. So basically, Paddle is the only end-to-end infrastructure that will enable you to invoice your customers and get payments support, offering different payment methods, as well as make sure you're globally compliant and file your taxes so that you don't have to. I think what sets Paddle apart from a lot of other companies that are helping companies with tax is that we actually do it for you. In addition to that, we assume the full liability and risks associated to global tax compliance. VICTORIA: Right. Yes. And I saw a product that you all have or information that you shared called the Sales Tax Agony Index. Can you tell me a little bit about that? DANIËLLE: Well, I think, in general, tax is painful. [laughs] I think personal tax is painful. Anything that has to do with business tax is amplified significantly. And I think for software companies, often, you build a great product, and you want to bring it up to market. But then you're limited and slowed down from really expanding globally. I mean, that is where we come in to really take up the tax burden for software creators to be able to look at it as a stepping stone instead of a roadblock if that makes sense. VICTORIA: I think that makes a lot of sense. And it's interesting where we are right now with the current climate and economics that companies may be focusing on their finances to reduce cost but also to identify new areas to invest in, right? DANIËLLE: Yeah, right. And I think that's super interesting to me, which I keep saying I'm not sure why not all of the software world is on Paddle. Because I think if you look out there in the market, there's such a piecemeal solution to everything. So you have to, for example, if you're going to not build your own billing, you have to outsource buying software for your billing. You have to go find a payment provider that's compatible and then the resources to get them into your platform to make sure checkout is seamless. Then you have to get an accountant to reconcile your payment. You have to get customer support to support your customer payments. You have to get more additional headcount to make sure your chargebacks and your fraud rates stay down. And all of this, Paddle just does it for you, which I think especially in this climate where cost is becoming a subject, I think Paddle is a great business partner to enable software companies to grow at a reasonable cost and pricing, and really explore all of the global market out there versus having to do it yourself. VICTORIA: Right. And Paddle could maybe help you identify where your spend also has a high return on investment. Is that right? DANIËLLE: We do put you in direct contact with your customer, so your customers are not masked or anything like that. So you do have access to all of your customer data. And in addition to that, we've recently made an additional acquisition to grow the Paddle family by adding ProfitWell, which is really an expert in anything that has to do with retention and pricing. And we are working to integrate this product and make it available to our Paddle customers as well. So that is not something that is there today but soon will be. VICTORIA: Oh, interesting. And I read a recent interview that you did, and I liked how you connected retaining your customer base to your billing and invoicing process because that might be an afterthought for a lot of startups and founders. But it is really key in keeping your customers happy is having that easy billing and invoice process. Is that your perspective? DANIËLLE: Yeah. I definitely think that with any SaaS company, there's definitely something known as well as an abandoned cart like somebody that will, you know, maybe we do it ourselves as well when we go out shopping online. We drop stuff in our cart, and we never make it to checkout. And I think to make sure you optimize your checkout, and your revenue is to make sure that the process is as seamless as possible, that your customers can just flow through this process and not have any challenges during that journey to make sure that your conversion rates stay high. VICTORIA: Right. That makes a lot of sense. Do you have other insights about customer retention that may relate to the Paddle platform? DANIËLLE: I think what's unique for me as a finance professional looking at the Paddle product...given I am by little biased because I do work here, and I'm a big fan of our product. But I think, and I've talked about this often, there are so many software solutions or tools that finance folks are trying to be sold. We get them sold to us, like, oh, this will automate 100%, and this will reduce this, or this will reduce that. I think what Paddle does well and how we are uniquely positioned is that what should be automated is automated and what needs a human touch has a human touch. And what I mean with that as well is in the sense of your customers making a payment and having a challenge we actually offer customer support with real people. And we do support your customers to make sure that they have a pleasant journey in the checkout process or resolve any payment issues that they have. So I think we balance the two out. And it's similar to, for example, taxes as well. We automate what we can, but we have a team of tax analysts really looking at the data and making sure everything is running correctly and is exactly compliant as it should be. So I think we bring together the best of both worlds in saying we automate a portion of the journey and where we can use and should use the human touch and intellect we do so. So we're not promising 100% percent automation. We just promise that we will do it for you by combining the best of both worlds. VICTORIA: That makes sense, right? Because, at some point, the automation can become more effective than hiring. But how can you scale your business without having to double your finance reporting and your tax teams, right? DANIËLLE: And I fully agree. And I think you bring up a very interesting point. I think from my past; I had been at Booking where you were in a situation where you have an endless means of cash flow that you can really build your dream automation tools. I think a lot of the big automation that Booking has achieved in finance is really admirable, and a majority of it has been done in-house. So I think they've done a really great job with that. But then, when you step out of an organization like that into a smaller startup scale-up, you do not have infinite funds. You are talking mostly about cash burn and then your cash runway. And you do have to optimize between a decision of should I invest in tooling to automate? Or does it make sense for me to hire a person because hiring a person is more cost-effective than automating? I think in a cash-tight environment, you do have to evaluate what makes more sense; sometimes, it is hiring a person. Sometimes hiring one person will get you scaled for two years. And other times, if you looked at you will have to hire one or five people per year to do a certain task, then it makes sense definitely to invest in automation because the cost will be upfront, but the benefits will be scalable, and you'll have definitely benefits from that point. VICTORIA: And there's a mix of you need people to do the work, but you also need to give them the tools to be able to do their job, right? DANIËLLE: Yes, I think most of us in finance still find that Excel is our best friend. [laughs] VICTORIA: Well, I won't complain about Excel myself. I have a background in economics, an undergraduate, so I'm an Excel pro. DANIËLLE: Yeah, I think definitely Excel has brought us all a very long way. [laughs] VICTORIA: So what's different about your customers that you're targeting with Paddle? What's unique about them? DANIËLLE: I think what is unique about them is that we want to really bring the creator of softwares their dreams to life, which means it's almost like we want to dream with them if that makes sense. We want to make sure that whatever they build becomes available to the world, whether they are a small startup or a small company or if they are a giant in the industry and very good at their skills. So we want to target the entire market for software. And I think what makes them unique is that our customers are usually a fan of our product, but we are a fan of theirs. So I think, typically, that works both ways really well. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And do you find that your customers are facing a different set of challenges today than they might have a year ago? DANIËLLE: I think the SaaS industry has changed. I think it's no secret that definitely the economic landscape has shifted. I think we were very fortunate to close our Series D in very favorable circumstances before the climate changed. I do think it will change back, and I don't think this is all doom and gloom. But I also do think that we are all facing the situation where we should be taking proactive measures and steps to manage our cost effectively before it is actually required. For some of the SaaS industries, it may already be required, and for others, I think even those doing well should be mindful to take steps where possible. Cutting costs does not necessarily mean cutting quality or immediately reducing staff. I think it just is more taking a step back and critically looking at your spend to see, do I have opportunity to renegotiate existing contracts? Are there, especially in my cost of goods sold, can I get this reduced somehow without reducing the quality of my product and what we're delivering as a business? And I think these are very good and big opportunities that we can definitely seize in addition to our operational spend. Just taking a critical look at this can really go a long way. VICTORIA: That makes sense. It sounds like, as a VP of finance, those are things that you might be able to bring to the table. Or tell me more about how the role of a finance person plays in a startup in making some of those decisions. DANIËLLE: I think the role of a finance person is super critical in the sense of you're looking back to see what the spend was and where we've been and to look forward to what the trends will be. You're also trying to inspire vision and strategy and work together with the sales team to both have realistic forecasts on what we will do, can do, and what we'll actually deliver. And I think as a finance leader, more than ever, it is so needed for us to partner with the business instead of being chucked away in a corner somewhere processing financial reports or looking at them. So I think the finance literacy is definitely something that we can add to our organizations. I'll give you an example, as we rolled out our budget, it wasn't just to deliver it to the board or to our executive committee, but it was also to talk about it with our senior leadership. I think the senior leadership is also so critical to any organization to say, "Hey, we are going to commit together with our own leaders to make sure that we're executing the plan and that we will also get all of our teams to partner and create that buy-in as a company." So I think as a finance leader, it's not just my job to go out there and say, "Hey, we have to cut costs," but also to explain what is happening to the economic climate, why we have to cut costs, and what are the benefits of doing it before it is needed. And definitely paving the road to say, "Hey, this is beneficial for all of us because these are our financial goals that we can achieve, but we can only achieve them together." So I think creating that buy-in and building that team across the organization that is committed to the correct finance management is super critical in this day and age. It used to be that it was just finance's role to watch the finances; I think now it's a collaborative effort of the entire company. VICTORIA: I really like that I have a background in DevOps, and that's breaking down silos between different parts of the organization. And so I love to hear that finance is getting really involved and be a part of the overall decisions that everyone's making in the company, right? DANIËLLE: Yeah, definitely. VICTORIA: How does Paddle build stakeholder buy-in within the company? What does that process look like for you all? DANIËLLE: I think very early on, we identified that, obviously, our executive team is key. I think this is the tip of the arrow really leading the organization in giving vision and direction. I find that we've been very fortunate, in my humble opinion, because we have a great CEO and a great COO. And I really enjoy working with the entire executive team. They're just a wonderful group of people. Besides being amazing professionals, they're just generally nice, [chuckles] which is always great. But we've identified early on that actually your senior leadership right underneath that is so critical to your company's culture, how you hire, how you buy, how you move, how you invest, but also how would your future be like. Because while the executive team definitely is key in giving the direction, the vision, and mission, I think the team right underneath that, the senior leadership team, is really the one that is going to go out there and materialize that dream and vision, and really live that dream, and really get the right people and to get the job done. So I think what we've identified early on is to make everybody an active stakeholder, do the planning together. Like, before the executive team rolls out a mission and vision, it's not going to be a total surprise to the senior leadership. We've all taken part of it, and we've all supported it, and we've discussed it, and we've fine-tuned it. So I think definitely taking people along in the journey goes a long way. The other thing I think that is very critical is just being transparent and being honest. At the end of the day, we're people. We want to know what's happening, why it's happening, and what we're working towards. And I think that is something that Paddle has done very well as well internally as a team. We have great values and great focus on what we want to deliver, where we want to go, and we definitely are focused on doing so together. VICTORIA: That sounds great. You all have a shared vision of where you're going and where you are currently. And that probably helps get everyone on board with what we're working on in the future. It gets everyone motivated a little bit more, right? DANIËLLE: Correct. Exactly. VICTORIA: So, is there anything particularly exciting coming up with Paddle that you are looking forward to? DANIËLLE: I think I'm super excited to see what ProfitWell, how it will integrate, and the product that it will offer, and the opportunities that it will offer to our Paddle customers. I'm super excited to see that materialize and seeing all of this come together. We've been waiting, and we've been working towards this deal for a very long time, so seeing it materialize is quite exciting. And I'm definitely looking forward to that. VICTORIA: And do you think that that cultural strength you mentioned with Paddle and having that transparency and quality of support from the leadership does that help translate when you're doing big deals like that and closing deals with other companies? DANIËLLE: Yeah, it definitely does. I think, in general, the finance team has had quite an exciting first half of the year. I want to say, you know, being in Series D, having due diligence done, ProfitWell, at the same time preparing for an audit, having your financial team build out your reporting. I think we've had so many things run at the same time, and the pressures are quite high. So I think just having that positive culture together as a team gives you strength as well together to be your best self under pressure instead of really crumbling or not getting along and struggling with it. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes total sense. If you feel like you're supported by other humans in your company, [laughs] then when you're stressed, it makes it easier to get along. That makes a lot of sense. Do you have any other advice for finance leaders or startups who are navigating the economic downturn at this time? DANIËLLE: I would say keep an eye open. Do not stop investing. Do be critical about your ROI. Make sure that where you're spending your money is where it makes the most sense for the business, and just keep an eye out for opportunity. Because just because the climate has turned does not mean that it will not turn back, and it does mean that there are loads of opportunities out there that we can still seize as a business. VICTORIA: Right. It means that different markets are more active, right? [laughs] DANIËLLE: Usually. Correct. VICTORIA: Do you have any questions for me or for thoughtbot? DANIËLLE: I'm just curious, for you as well, what's your favorite subject that you discuss on thoughtbot? VICTORIA: Ooh, a favorite subject. That's tough because I love hearing from our designers and our developers. We have many developers who are some core contributors to Rails, and so they are very knowledgeable about things like we have random meetups that happen at thoughtbot. So you can sign up and just randomly pair up with somebody else in the company. And the first random meetup I had, I met up with someone who is like the expert on security [laughs] and dotfiles and helped me finish setting up my developer environment. And so I love that at thoughtbot, you can start a random conversation with someone, and they'll end up having this wealth of knowledge around a particular subject that you might have been struggling with and can just immediately solve your problem. I also like the fun parts. There's actually a blog that just captures all of our jokes from Slack [laughter] just… So it's a part of like making it fun and being human at work and kind of showing up with your whole self. I think that adds a cultural strength for those moments like you describe when things are difficult, or you have a hard project. You feel bonded to your teammates and feel like you're all working together, and that positivity stays throughout. DANIËLLE: Yes, definitely. VICTORIA: So, are you currently in Amsterdam? Is that right? DANIËLLE: I am based in the Netherlands. I'm actually based in Alkmaar, which is 30 minutes outside of Amsterdam, but I typically say Amsterdam because that's the city that most people know where it's at. [laughs] VICTORIA: Same for me. I go with San Diego, but I'm actually in Encinitas. It's a little bit further north. So is there a difference, or what is the startup environment or community like in Europe then? DANIËLLE: I think I'm quite impressed because before moving to the Netherlands, I wasn't aware there was so much happening, but there are actually some channels called Silicon Canals, so the canals for the boats, so it's a bit of a play on words. And there's such a vibrant startup and scale-up community in the Netherlands, which was quite surprising for me to run into. So I do think by nature...I was born in the Netherlands, and I moved to Aruba when I was five. So I wasn't raised here. But I think if I look at the Dutch culture, it is quite innovative. And they do tend to find different ways of doing things when it comes to water or building dams. And I think that curiosity and innovation has moved over to the tech space. So I think that Amsterdam is definitely a city to watch in terms of scale-ups that pop up and the progress that they make. VICTORIA: I've heard a lot about new technologies and new solutions coming out of the Netherlands with agriculture specifically, but I am not surprised that there's a burgeoning startup community there. [laughs] That's wonderful. DANIËLLE: Yeah, it's quite exciting. VICTORIA: That's very cool. All right, is there anything that you expected me to ask that I did not ask? DANIËLLE: No, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I think we covered quite a bit. VICTORIA: Yes. I'm watching the time and making sure that I'm giving you enough time. DANIËLLE: [laughs] VICTORIA: I liked this quote from your blog, actually, so I'll repeat it here, "Bad companies are destroyed by crises, good companies survive them, and great companies are improved by them." DANIËLLE: Yes, that is definitely one of my favorites. VICTORIA: Do you have an example of a company where they went through a crisis, and they came out great afterwards? DANIËLLE: I have a friend of mine, actually, that started a company called Limelights. And I think when he started this, he was so focused on marketing and development and so on. When the COVID crisis hit...and he's actually the one that shared that quote with me, we're close friends. He was sharing with me that quote and how he has completely revamped his company from a marketing company, which is basically the first thing that most companies...the expense they started cutting, to an online learning platform, and events, and team development program. So I think he's done this so successfully that his business started thriving during the COVID period. And still now, after when things are relatively normalized in the tech space and just the overall spend, he is doing better than he did before this happened. His story of his company was so inspirational to me. And we were talking about that quote, and I'm just like, that's it. That's exactly that innovative culture that you want to see in times of crisis. You don't want people to back down and say, "Oh, times are hard. Let's just ride this out." You want people to start looking around, like, how can we do this differently? And how can we navigate these new waters that we're in? And proactively be engaged with your environment to really find alternatives to what is happening. VICTORIA: I would guess that having a clear picture on your finances and your customer information would help you be able to make those pivots. Is that right? And how Paddle can help you get out of those [inaudible 23:21] DANIËLLE: Yes, that is definitely correct. [laughs] Like I said, we're an end-to-end platform. So you can literally have all of your data at the tip of your fingers to make sure that you make the right financial decisions in addition to us taking off some of the financial tasks off of your plate. Like I said, we want to do it for our customers, make sure that everything is running smoothly. So I think this is a massive opportunity for companies to have additional support in their processes because we take them over to a degree as well as indeed have clarity and transparency into their financial reporting and how their revenue streams are doing. VICTORIA: Right. Because I imagine that task that work to put all that together would take up a lot of founder's time. DANIËLLE: Yes. VICTORIA: So freeing up that time and giving you a chance to understand where you're at now, and where you can go, and be able to pivot in those times of crisis. DANIËLLE: Exactly. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. Has Paddle found that offering free information or these tools like the Sales Tax Agony Index does that help you bring customers into your platform? DANIËLLE: Yes, definitely. I think there's a bit of humor here as well. Obviously, this was not put together by a finance person. [laughs] But I do love that our sales and marketing team is super creative in bringing the finance story and the tax story to life. I think as soon as people hear tax, if you can tune out, you do. So I think they've done a great job at pointing out the Sales Tax Agony Index, and they are not exaggerating. [laughs] In many of the jurisdictions, it is quite challenging. And I think one thing that makes it challenging as well...so while software is not new to most of us as users, software is still quite new to most governments, and most countries are not certain when or how to tax this. So I think everybody is trying to figure this out globally, which is where we can step into the space, as well as we do monitor the global landscape for taxes. The changes happen fast. They happen continuously. And implementation of taxes is not always logical because taxes are not always logical. So I think looking at the tax agony that our sales and marketing team has put together is definitely not an over-exaggeration. I think the risks are real for misunderstanding or misreading the tax laws that are in place, and so that's where we come in to really bring our experts and really dissect some of the meanings of these. We have partners globally to ensure compliance. I think that the tax that is charged on software can be so variable that, as a business by yourself, it's going to be super tricky to monitor. Like in some countries, the software is taxed locally only if you sell to a local customer. It is not taxed locally if it's sold internationally. So there are so many little hooks and needles. In some countries, you don't have to pay tax unless you exceed X amount of sales on your software. So all of these rules and regulations can be quite obstacles and blockers to rolling out your business globally. VICTORIA: Right. I hadn't even thought about a lot of that complexity. One of the things I'm excited about most with thoughtbot is that it's an international company. And so I'm out of my DC bubble, and we have customers in England and team members all over the world. So I think it's exciting that there's a product out there that can help you navigate things like taxes across all different countries, which I wouldn't have even thought would be that big of a problem, but apparently, it is. [laughs] DANIËLLE: And I think especially when you talk about the tax agony panel, you can also see what the challenges are, and worst penalties, and fines, and prison. VICTORIA: [laughs] Yeah, right? It's like, it's very difficult, and the agony is high, and the penalty is high. [laughter] So that's...you don't want to go to prison for accidentally misunderstanding the tax code. That's a real serious risk that you'd face. DANIËLLE: Yes, it is. [laughs] VICTORIA: Awesome. Do you want to do any final takeaways for our listeners today? DANIËLLE: I would say chin up. The economic downturn is not going to last forever. While it's good to look for opportunity to save costs, it's also a great opportunity and moment to look for the right investments to make to grow your company. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Daniëlle. I really enjoyed our conversation. DANIËLLE: Thank you, Victoria. It was great meeting you. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Daniëlle Keeven.

Victoria Guido is the new Associate Director of Business Development and DevOps Strategy at thoughtbot, and is joining Chad as co-host of the show! Chad talks with Victoria about getting involved in DevOps work, transitioning to agile, moving away from her old community which was based on geography, and tips for people onboarding into a new role. Follow Victoria on Twitter (https://twitter.com/victori_ousg) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Victoria Guido, the new Associate Director of Business Development and DevOps Strategy at thoughtbot, and wait for it, the new co-host of this very podcast with me. Victoria, thank you for joining me on the show for this episode, for joining me at thoughtbot, and now for joining me as the co-host of the show. VICTORIA: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. CHAD: You do all of those things, right? [laughs] VICTORIA: Yes, yes. CHAD: So I'm hoping that we can introduce folks to you. I'm excited to have you on the show and for the audience to get to know you. Let's start with your role at thoughtbot. I think maybe you have the esteem of having the longest title at thoughtbot right now. [chuckles] VICTORIA: Yes, I love it, Associate Director of Business Development and DevOps Strategy. So I'm not only doing business development but also planning our DevOps services and how we do that at thoughtbot. CHAD: And you're on the Mission Control team, which for folks who follow along or want to go back and listen, we had Joe, who is the CTO of thoughtbot and the interim Managing Director of the Mission Control team, which is our new DevOps team and Site Reliability Engineering team, that's Episode 403. So I will link that in the show notes, but it's at giantrobots.fm/403 as well. So, how did you get involved in DevOps work? VICTORIA: Right. So I first went to my first DevOps meetup in 2017 when I was living in Washington, D.C. I had been working in IT and operations for about 5 or 10 years at that point. And I went to a DevOps meetup and met some really nice guys, and they were very...what I liked about it was that it was both the technology side and about culture. And it was about how do we break down silos between different groups, and then bring in the automation and start to do next level type of operations? So that's how I started to get involved. And I started attending the meetups regularly and then became an organizer for the meetup and for the conference series. And that's when I became like the biggest DevOps person in D.C. probably. [laughs] CHAD: Did you end up moving from the general IT work that you were doing into more DevOps focus work along that way? VICTORIA: Yeah, at that time, that was when as a federal contractor, you know, agile had been around for quite a while. And I had been through several agile transformations with large program teams. And now DevOps was becoming more of a thing. And the project that I was on at the time was managing a large set of federal websites and was managing the build pipeline and process for how they got their code into the public's view and how they managed the servers and all the other back-end services that supported those applications. So DevOps was both top of mind for the government. [laughs] They were trying to now be able to deploy as frequently as they were able to build new features. And it was part of the work that I was performing as well. CHAD: You mentioned you were doing government work at the time. What was that like? What kind of work was it? VICTORIA: Yeah, actually, my first job after college, my first full-time job, was at Citizenship and Immigration Services. And it was about a 200-person program. Some of the applications were actually written in Siebel. And so we had just a variety of different applications from Siebel to Java. And they had just transitioned to agile. And so that was taking a team that was managing Oracle releases and bringing them into a kanban style workflow and figuring out how do we be agile when we're in maintenance mode, and bring the team along with me? And I worked my way up from a process engineer to project management and did a little bit of testing and a little bit of development in between. So it was interesting because it was a major transformational shift for that agency and still getting steeped in ITIL processes and how to do unit testing, acceptance testing, and all of those other kinds of critical processes for building applications. It was good. CHAD: What does transitioning to agile mean when you talk about groups that size? You're talking about unit tests and that kind of thing, which can be part of agile, but I assume isn't the only aspect of it. VICTORIA: Yeah, I think for that group, it was about changing the way we planned and managed work and figuring out what processes could we automate. So is there testing that we could automate or test data creation we could automate? And I think there are some concepts from agile that helped our planning, for example, making a physical board to manage which environments has which versions of Oracle in it. Those types of concepts of just kind of stepping away from your computer and getting together with the group every day to talk about what issues they're running into that's kind of what it was. But there was still, of course, documentation requirements, big documentation requirements, and everything like that. So it was an interesting sort of half transition or tailored approach to doing agile with that type of team. CHAD: And then from there, you moved into ongoing sort of consulting companies that worked with government. VICTORIA: Yes, I worked for two pseudo-government financial organizations, Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation and Fannie Mae, so my next two roles as a project manager and system engineer. So at Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, I got exposed to more system engineering and security engineering, working with their mobile device management policy, and actually designing the mobile device management to match DISA STIG. Sorry, I'm doing a lot of acronyms out here. [laughter] You can stop me if I use too many. But that was really interesting and also upgrading their system, they were using to manage change for the organization so their ITIL services management tool. Going through the process of upgrading that project and coordinating across all the teams who delivered software at the agency was fascinating. I went on to Fannie Mae, where I started to really build knowledge bases and start to build out actually using SharePoint at the time. [laughs] But figuring out ways to share knowledge across large teams and other large production support services teams, and how to get them collaborating so they could improve themselves and do continuous improvement, and learn what other groups are doing. CHAD: That's one area where I honestly don't have a ton of experience. Most of my professional experience has been at thoughtbot or other smaller organizations. How do you manage that, or what are the big differences between large organizations like that and something at the thoughtbot size or smaller? VICTORIA: The biggest difference between a large organization like that and a small one like thoughtbot would be I think of how change gets generated and started. In a small organization with a culture like thoughtbot, change can come from anywhere and very quickly have permeated the entire organization. With a larger organization, you can have leaders try to force change from the top down. And you'll see individuals some will be 100% on board. Others will figure out how to qualify what they're already doing to fit that change. And some others will just be full-on resistance and just kind of be waiting for the next leader to come in so they can switch into whatever they were doing before. And there is also that organic change that comes from individuals and then pushes up to the rest of the organization. But I think it's much harder, and you have to have a lot of will and a lot of support from leadership that they're accepting of those types of ideas. CHAD: I think it's the nature of groups and companies to want to grow. Do you think that there's any way to preserve that smaller culture as an organization grows? VICTORIA: I think so. I think it's possible if you integrate it into part of your core values, and that becomes a part of how you interview, and how you do performance reviews, and how you build your culture as a company. I think you can build it on those tenets. I think in some organizations, there's usually some form of acquisition where you acquired a team from a contracting company, or you acquired a team of federal employees from another agency when you restructured. So it makes it a little bit more challenging to really integrate that part of your culture into every step, but it is possible. And you also have to accept that not everyone might be on board all the time. CHAD: Well, I think that that is probably the biggest challenge is even in a larger organization, if you foster a culture where change can happen from anywhere, it's not necessarily top down. Transferring that knowledge or that practice throughout the whole organization is really difficult. Like if it's thousands or tens of thousands of people, adopting a change seems really difficult to me. So even if things are really organic coming from all levels of the company, you could end up in a scenario where everything is being done differently, everywhere. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I think, too, when you're in a larger organization, there's more context for every unit. And so you can think this is a change we're going to do. This is going to be great. But then, once you actually see the way that people work, that change might not actually help them that much. And so I think that if people have autonomy to be able to make changes that make sense for them, that's more likely to be effective than if we tried to push change from the top down necessarily. And being in my position as a contractor, I really don't have authority to make a lot of changes. CHAD: [chuckles] Right. VICTORIA: So either I have someone backing me up, or I really get to know the individuals that I'm working with. And I can demonstrate and show them that there's a better way of doing it and do it in a way that gives it to them as an option so they can choose to adopt it. And that's usually the only option I have to give anyway, [laughs] so that's been effective because people do want to be better at their jobs or be more efficient. But a lot of times, I think the changes aren't really addressing their problem, and so it can be easy to push it aside. Mid-Roll Ad: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs CHAD: So you mentioned you got involved in DevOps DC and then as an organizer. I know you also started to work with Women Who Code. Why did you get involved in the organization of DevOps DC and that kind of thing? Was there a business or a personal reason to do it? VICTORIA: It was both. It made sense from a networking perspective, both in potential customers or clients and in recruiting. But also, I think it made sense. For me personally, the people who were showing up regularly were my kind of people, you know, [laughs] people who cared about blameless post mortems or feeling open or making me feel welcome when I came to the meetup. That was a big reason why I got involved. And it just made sense for me, too, because I was coming from an operations background. I'm like, oh, DevOps, this is the way that we're supposed to be doing things. [laughs] CHAD: So you were really involved in the D.C. community and had been there for a while. But you recently moved to California. VICTORIA: Yes, yeah. I've been in San Diego for almost two years, about a year and a half at this point. Yeah, big moves. CHAD: What was it like to move away from your old community, which was so based on geography? VICTORIA: Yeah, it was sad, but it was interesting how it worked out with the pandemic because when we found out we were going to move, was when everything shut down, and we went slowly remote anyways. And so I continued running DevOps DC remotely and some Women Who Code events for about a year afterwards. And then, when I decided it was time to really shift away and actually be more present in the San Diego community, especially when the other meetups started going back to in-person meetups, that was actually really hard to say goodbye and to say that I wasn't going to be organizing anymore. And I really miss all my past organizers and people who would come to the events. CHAD: Has it been difficult to form a new community locally given the pandemic? VICTORIA: Yeah, I've looked at quite a few meetups. There are a number of good meetups here in San Diego, and LA has a great scene as well. But yeah, it's been hard for myself to just get out of the house and to find similar groups that have those same interests. That's been a challenge, but I think it's coming along, and we'll get there. CHAD: And along the way, you joined thoughtbot. I'm curious, what were the things, in particular, that attracted you to the role or to thoughtbot? What were you looking for personally? VICTORIA: Personally, I knew that business development was an area that fit my skill sets really well, and the things I like to do like going out, and networking, and talking to people. And this role, in particular with the DevOps strategy in there, really excited me because I could use all of these hours and hours I've spent in meetups and conferences to good use to help develop services within thoughtbot that are really tailored to our specific user groups and needs. And to work with highly skilled, highly regarded engineers and developers on developing these products I thought was really exciting. And then thoughtbot as a company, in particular, I found the interview process to be really well thought out with, for example, I knew that it was going to be a long interview process. So there is a compensation that you can receive just for interviewing. And I thought that was something that was really nice [laughs] and also just showed that approach of being aware of the candidate's experience and wanting to have that be a good experience and a worthwhile endeavor. So that was part of why I liked thoughtbot. Open source was a big consideration for me. I wanted to work somewhere where they were passionate about giving back to the open-source community, and all that together brought me here and made the most sense. CHAD: Cool. Do you have any tips for people onboarding into a new role? Or maybe even if it's not tips, was there something that you did intentionally when day one or day minus one you're thinking about, okay, tomorrow I'm getting started? How did you approach that? VICTORIA: One of the biggest advice I give to people who are starting a new role is to schedule one on ones with members of your team and get to know them as individuals, especially in remote environment since you don't necessarily have a chance to go out for coffee, [chuckles] just to have a quick one on one and get to know them a little bit more in your role and figure out where you can start to add value. I think that's a great way to start. And then to just develop your list of ideas for where you think you can add value, some outstanding questions for where you need to understand more. And I think the other advice would be to engage in the social channels. I think my first day, I posted a picture of my dog on the dogs' channel. [laughter] And just like, let your personality show a little bit. And don't be afraid to post in a large channel, especially if you know the culture of the company is open to that kind of collaboration. And then people start to see your face and get to know you a little bit more, and you feel more connected to your company. CHAD: Were you nervous when you joined on your first day? VICTORIA: Yeah, a little nervous. And I'm also aware of just having been a federal contractor that some people might hear that and have an impression of my style or the way I like to work. And so I'm a little aware of like, oh, I definitely don't want to wear a blazer. I don't want to look too corporate. [laughter] CHAD: That's funny. Yeah, one time, we were meeting in sales meetings with clients, and we wanted to establish that we were not a typical consulting company. And so intentionally going to a sales meeting wearing a t-shirt or something like that was a statement, like an intentional choice we were making to subtly communicate what kind of company we are. So that resonates with me. VICTORIA: Right. [laughs] CHAD: So now that you've been here for...oh, geez, how long has it been? [chuckles] VICTORIA: It's almost a month. CHAD: Almost a month. Was there anything that surprised you? VICTORIA: There have been a few small things that I'm probably way too happy about. One is just the actual page count in contracts is just way lower than what I've had to work with in the past, [laughter] which is very exciting for me. I was really happy to see...I went to go add a custom Slack emoji, and there were already like 2,000-plus Slack emojis. So that was really exciting for me. [laughs] Surprising...the part that's interesting is, in some cases, as a consulting company, it is the same problems that we're trying to solve for. So, in that case, it's almost expected, but it's interesting. So to see some things like what thoughtbot has, a playbook in GitHub, and anyone can edit it. And that was something I was really trying to work on at my last position. And you're 5 or 10 years down the road where you've solved some of the issues where you have a nice editor so that people can go in and edit pages without using Markdown or pull requests. But it's still difficult. So it's interesting to see that some challenges have progressed a little and have still some different issues. CHAD: Yeah, it's always interesting to get a new person's perspective with fresh eyes. I've been doing this for a long time, and joining a new company remotely is different. Back when you were joining a Boston team or a San Francisco team, you could go into the office. And your first day, you'd be sitting right next to somebody and going to lunch with them. And that kind of thing is clearly very different now than it was then. VICTORIA: Right. And I did get to see everyone at Summit for one night. So that's exciting. CHAD: Yeah, that was exciting. So we happened to...I think the week before you started, or maybe two weeks before you started, we were having our company-wide in-person get-together in the United Kingdom. And you happened to be going to Germany for a wedding, right? VICTORIA: Mm-hmm. CHAD: So we tacked on to that trip and stole you for a day, and we were able to see each other in person. That was exciting. VICTORIA: It was really cool. Although I had a lot of FOMO once, I saw the next day was like D&D and a bunch of games and hanging out. I was like, wow, I'd really like to stay longer. [laughs] CHAD: Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll do it again next year. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, that's true. CHAD: Mission control is the one team at thoughtbot that works on clients that is cross time zone, so most of the teams overlap with clients 100% with time zone. So it'll be people in the Americas work with clients in the Americas. But the Mission Control so that we could provide a wide swath of time zone coverage for that infrastructure work, for that support that we do, crosses the teams. So one person on your team is in Nigeria, and you're all the way in San Diego. What's that like? How do you manage that? VICTORIA: Yes, well, everyone on the team makes sure to update their availability in their calendars so that we aren't accidentally scheduling meetings really late in the day for folks who are on that UK time zone. It's been all right, though. I'm used to asynchronous communication, and so is the team. So I think that we're really good at being able to use Jira and Confluence and Slack to communicate. And we are open with each other on where we're flexible if we need to make meetings a little bit later. And everyone's been really supportive of not trying to have meetings too early with me, which I appreciate, [laughter] 8:00 o'clock is totally fine, though. It's actually been good. I'm used to the asynchronous communication. I actually would even be open to more meetings that are done just over Slack and just when people wake up. CHAD: I think there are different philosophies here. But I'm very much in the camp of assuming we want to work a sustainable pace, which we do, then you can't build a culture around synchronous meetings where everyone needs to be on the meeting together because it's basically impossible. Those two things are at odds. Someone will be outside of their regular work hours, and that's really hard to continue on sustainably. So I'm very much in the camp of having a culture of asynchronous communication. And that doesn't mean that you never talk. [laughs] It doesn't mean that you don't work with each other. But maybe those times should be focused on what can't be replicated asynchronously, which is sometimes the social connections, the cultural connections of the team. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I think we get a kick out of saying like, "Good morning, Victoria, and good evening, Olamide." [laughs] CHAD: Cool. Well, I'm sure folks will get to know you more over the course of the next episodes. I really appreciate you joining the show. If folks want to follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? VICTORIA: I'm more active on Twitter, and so you can follow me there. And I tend to like and retweet a bunch of DevOps-related events and Women Who Code events. And I'm also on LinkedIn. CHAD: So what's that Twitter handle? VICTORIA: It's @victori_ousg. CHAD: Okay. We'll include a link to that in the show notes. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with an entire transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And I'm so excited it's not just going to be me on that email list anymore. So definitely send an email. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening. Victoria, thank you again. VICTORIA: Thank you CHAD: And see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

In today's episode, I'm chatting with human design expert Victoria Jane. Victoria is a human design coach whose mission is to guide growth-oriented humans to live with less hustle and more flow. After a decade in Silicon Valley, Victoria found herself burnt out, dealing with chronic health issues, and searching for a way to live in ease. As she searched for how to heal not just her body, but her spirit, she discovered her design. Today, she is passionate about sharing Human Design so others can confidently live their truth. In the episode, Victoria shares her story of how she got into human design and why she left a career in tech to become a HD reader and coach. We also chat about what human design is and the history behind it, an overview of the five different energy types in human design (manifestors, generators, manifesting generators, projectors, and reflectors), emotional versus non-emotional authority in human design, the various human design profile lines and what they mean, and ways we can create more ease and flow in our lives using this modality. Thank you for listening! To find your human design: https://www.myhumandesign.com/get-your-chart/ https://www.jovianarchive.com/get_your_chart For more from Victoria: You can signup for her email list to be the first to know about special events and offerings. Follow on Instagram @victoriajane.hd or listen to the podcast, Human Design with Victoria Jane, to keep learning. Make sure to follow the show on Instagram @thoughts.on.thriving for more content! https://www.instagram.com/thoughts.on.thriving/ Contact: thoughtsonthriving@gmail.com

What you'll learn in this episode: The history of JCK and the JCK Show How Victoria identifies trends to highlight in JCK Why the line between women's jewelry and men's jewelry has blurred, especially among younger consumers How travel influences jewelry design The most exciting new designers Victoria has her eye on About Victoria Gomelsky Victoria Gomelsky is editor-in-chief of JCK, a New York City-based jewelry trade publication founded in 1869. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, Robb Report, AFAR, WSJ Magazine, the Hollywood Reporter, Escape, The Sun and Waking Up American: Coming of Age Biculturally, an anthology published by Seal Press. She graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from UCLA with a BA in political science in 1995 and earned her MFA in nonfiction writing from Columbia University in 2002. She specializes in jewelry and watch writing but her greatest love has always been travel — 60 countries and counting. Victoria was born in St. Petersburg, Russia and emigrated to the United States in 1978 with her parents and twin sister, Julia. She divides her time between New York City and Los Angeles. Additional Resources:  Victoria's Website Victoria's Instagram Photos: Victoria Gomelsky watches: Transcript: Victoria Gomelsky, editor in chief of esteemed jewelry trade publication JCK, was bitten by the travel bug during her first-ever trip—when she and her family immigrated to the U.S. from the Soviet Union in the late 1970s. Since then, she's visited more than 60 countries, often traveling to visit jewelry shows and report on jewelry trends. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her career in jewelry started with a mysterious online job posting; why Gen Z is changing the way we categorize jewelry; and where to find her favorite jewelry destinations. Read the episode transcript here.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Keep your eyes open for part two, which we'll be posting later this week. Today, our guest is Victoria Gomelsky, editor-in-chief of the well-known industry publication JCK. Victoria is an accomplished writer. She's written about jewelry for the New York Times as well as an extensive list of respected publications. She also covers another of her passions, which is travel. She's had a quite a jewelry journey, as she was born in Russia and has been to more than 60 countries and counting. We'll hear all about her jewelry journey today. Victoria, welcome back to the program. Sharon: I have to ask you, why Las Vegas in July or in June? It's hot then.    Victoria: You know it's hot. It was this year that it was actually pushed back to August, which was so much hotter. It was hard to even fathom. I think the timing is such because it works well for the majors, the majors being the signets and the chain jewelers who really need to plan out their holiday buying much earlier than your average small boutique owner. A lot of it has to do with the schedule that makes sense for the industry. It's Vegas because it's hard to imagine another city that is appropriate for a giant tradeshow—   Sharon: That's true.   Victoria: That's easy to get, that has ample hotel room space. There are certainly smaller conferences that have been around the country. The American Gem Society has its annual conclave in a different city every year, but it's much, much smaller. It's convenience and ease of access, and I've gotten used to it. I don't love Vegas, but it does feel like my year is incomplete without my week at JCK. I've been going since 2000, so it's hard to imagine a year without it.   Sharon: How far in advance are you planning your publications? Are you thinking about the December issue in August?   Victoria: Well, if we had a December issue, yes.    Sharon: If it was an issue online?   Victoria: Online we can pull together pretty quickly. If it's a big feature, we like to plan it at least a month in advance, but so much of online is responding to what's happening in the world. Especially with the pandemic, it was really hard to plan because, as did everybody, we hit those walls where we thought, “This may not be relevant in a month.” Things were so changeable and volatile.    Online has a much different pace, but in terms of the print issue, we'll start planning the issue that heads out the door on the eve of JCK Vegas 2022. It'll probably go out in late May, and we'll probably start thinking about that in January in terms of big picture ideas. Just this morning, I was asked to give a sketch of content for a section on colored stones. It's hard to do that really early. You want to be timely. You want to be thoughtful about what people are thinking and what's happening the world.    Especially if an issue's coming out in the spring, I feel like after the holiday makes the most sense, because the holiday in the jewelry industry, as you can imagine or know, is everything. It's still the bulk of sales. The bulk of news comes out of this fourth quarter. To plan content without knowing how the holidays have gone is going to miss the mark, unless you're planning something general and vague. So, I like to wait until early January to start thinking about what makes sense and what people are talking about, what the news is.   Sharon: In terms of the holidays, since they're around the corner right now, you must have some features that are holiday-related that you think about early on, maybe in September or August.   Victoria: We do. If it's not about the holiday, it's about what people might start thinking about for the holiday. We do a lot of trend coverage on JCK, a lot of specific trend coverage, whether it be men's jewelry or something else. I'm actually working on a series of special report newsletters that go out every Monday in November all around the men's jewelry theme. We've covered colored stones, pearls, bridal. We tackle everything with a slight angle towards the holiday, questions like: Is this worth stocking? What are the trends? What kinds of things might retailers keep in mind as they prepare?    JCK is very much a style and trend publication, but it's also a business publication for people who happen to own jewelry businesses. We do a lot of marketing coverage, technology, social media apps that people need to know that might make them more efficient in their business. You could take jewelry out of a lot of what we cover and put in another field, whether it's fashion or home good or anything, and it might apply in terms of the strategies people might want to use to target customers, what they need to know. We try to cover it from all facets. It's always been a publication for businessowners in the jewelry space, so there's a lot of general business information we try to make sure our readers are aware of.   Sharon: If you're looking at trends, I'm thinking about the non-jewelry person that would go to Vogue or Harper's Bazaar or something like that—I'm dating myself, I realize—who can go online. I still think in terms of putting it online, like everybody else. Tell us about men's jewelry. Are men wearing more jewelry than before?   Victoria: Yes, they really are. It's funny, because I've been 20 years covering jewelry, and every four or five years, I'm either asked to or I initiate a story about the men's jewelry renaissance. There's always been something to say over the last 20 years. I do a lot of freelance writing for the New York Times. I did a piece for the Times about seven years ago, and there was a lot to say. There were a lot of jewelers introducing new men's collections and different takes on the subject, but no time has felt quite as relevant to that topic as now.    I think if you look to some of the most famous pop artists we see today, whether it's Harry Styles or Justin Bieber, the Jonas Brothers, Lil Nas X, any of these pop culture personalities, they are draped in jewelry, and not just any jewelry. A lot of them are draped in pearls, which for many of us are the most feminine gem around. There is this great, very interesting conversation about genderless or gender agnosticism in jewelry. Should we even define jewelry as a men's piece versus a woman's piece? Why not just make jewelry? Maybe it's a little more masculine/minimalist. Maybe it's a little more feminine/elaborate or diamond-set, but let it appeal to who it appeals to. Why do you need to tell people who it's for? It's a conversation.    I also write about watches quite a bit, and it's a conversation the watch world is grappling with, more so this year than any other year. Do we need to tell women that this is a “lady's watch”? Why don't we just market a watch, whether it, again, has feminine design codes or masculine design codes. Let whoever is interested in it buy it. We don't need to tell people what categories they are allowed to be interested in. It's been a very interesting conversation. I think fashion is embroiled in this conversation too, and it's been exciting to see.    When I talk about men's jewelry, I think what happens is that much of the industry still needs these categories because at retail, for example, a retailer might get a bunch of jewelry and they need to know how to merchandise or how to display it. For those kinds of problems, you still want to say, “O.K., well, this is my men's showcase,” but I think slowly things are changing. I don't know if in five years or 10 years, we'll even need those topics anymore. I think we'll just have a showcase of jewels. Again, they might be more minimalist or plainer, and they might appeal to men or women or people who consider themselves nonbinary.    Sharon: That's interesting, especially with watches, because when women wear men's watches, that's a fashion statement today.   Victoria: Very much so. I did a huge piece on female collectors for the Times in early 2020, and all of them wore men's pieces and felt a little grieved that they were being told what a woman's watch is. A woman's watch is a watch worn by a woman; that's it. I think the same might be true for jewelry. A men's jewel is a jewel worn by a man and so on. It's been an interesting thing to see evolve, and certainly there's a lot of momentum behind it. I think we'll slowly see these categories dissolve.   Sharon: There's a lot. I haven't seen men wearing brooches. Some of what you're talking about, to me, still has a way to go.   Victoria: A lot of it is being driven by Gen Z, Millennials, younger generations who look to their style icons like Harry Styles, as I mentioned. They're draped in a feather boa and necklaces. As that generation comes up they're going to age, and they're eventually going to be 30 or 40 and they'll be quite comfortable with jewelry because, 20 years later, they've been wearing it all these decades. But yeah, today, if you ask your average guy if he's going to wear a pearl necklace, I'm sure the answer's no, but I think these things do change. They change quicker than we expect them to. It's so much of what we see and what seems O.K. A lot of men might want to do that or might think they would look good in a pearl necklace.    I keep coming back to it because pearls are, again, the most feminine of gems, at least in terms of the lore we talk about, how we talk about them. Yet you see them on people like the Jonas Brothers or, for that matter, big, beautiful, iced-out Cuban chains. You see those on rappers or on hip hop stars. There is this communication out in the world where if you're just a regular guy and you're cruising through your Instagram and seeing these images, it all says to you, “This is O.K. This is right. Go for it if you're feeling it.” I think there is a lot more leeway in today's society to express yourself the way you want to. I think it's wonderful. It's quite exciting to see those barriers break down and have these conversations. It's been cool to write about.   Sharon: It would be interesting to have this conversation in 20 years. You reminded me of a conversation I had recently with an antique jewelry dealer about cufflinks. I said to her, “Cufflinks? Who wears cufflinks? I'm in Los Angeles.” Well, you're in Los Angeles too. Even the most staid businessperson, you don't see him with a cufflink, ever. I don't know.   Victoria: Maybe about a month ago, my boyfriend and I were invited to the opening of the Academy Museum of Motion Pictures, which just opened in September in the heart of Miracle, right next to LACMA. It was a big gala affair sponsored by Rolex, which is a huge supporter of the Academy and the Oscars and now the museum. It was wonderful; it was like a little Oscars event, except it wasn't televised. It was black-tie glamor. Hollywood glamor was the theme, so my boyfriend rented a tux; he doesn't own one, of course, because we're in L.A. and it's a pandemic. Who needs a tux? But he got a tux, and I was gutted that I didn't have cufflinks for him or that he didn't have his own. He rented some, I think; he had a few shirt studs he was able to get from the rental place, but it was the first time. I thought, “Oh my God, cufflinks!” and we had a wonderful time. It was really exciting to be back in the world in such a fabulous way. It really felt special.   Sharon: I didn't realize it had opened. I was at LACMA, the L.A. County Museum of Art, this weekend and there was a big crowd around the Academy Museum, but I didn't realize it had opened. My antique jewelry dealer friend was also saying that she has collectors who collect antique cufflinks. I thought, “That's interesting.” I didn't know that was a collector's item in some circles, I guess.   Victoria: Yeah, when I think about it, there are a lot of great ones in London. If you ever go through Mayfair or Old Bond Street and you find those antique dealers there—there's Deakin & Francis, an old U.K. firm that specializes in cufflinks. I've never owned any, but now that we're talking about it, I feel I need to buy my partner some.   Sharon: I stopped buying my husband them 20 years ago when they just sat on his dresser not worn. I said, “O.K., I tried.” You're a traveler. You've been to how many countries?   Victoria: I lose track. It depends a little on how you count countries. I think I've counted Macao separately from China, even though it's a special administrative region of Hong Kong. Somewhere around 60. It might be about 61 or 62. A lot of countries I've been to—I mean, I've been to Switzerland at least 20 times, Brazil five times, Russia four times. I keep going back to places even though it's always very exciting to take another country off my list. As I mentioned earlier, I was a backpacker after college. My first trip was to Central America with some girlfriends with backpacks on. We took off for three months. We went to Costa Rica and Panama and Venezuela, and I ended up in the Caribbean for a couple of weeks.    I had already started a little bit of traveling. Initially, we came from Russia as a kid. I think when we left Russia in late 1978 as part of the exodus of Soviet Jews from the Soviet Union, we were allowed to seek asylum in the States. We took this journey via Vienna and then Rome and ended up in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, of all places, because that's where we had an invitation. We had to have a formal invitation because we were political refugees.    I think very early on, even though it was never articulated to me—it was something I felt in my bones—I thought that travel was a way to lead a better life. It was a road to a better life, as it was for us. Early on that knowledge imprinted on me, on my soul. In high school, I started saving money to go to an exchange program in Spain. That was my first real trip outside—I'd gone to Mexico with my family, but I had never traveled outside of that. So, I had the bug. After college, I was always interested in slightly more offbeat places.    One of my favorite places in the whole world—and I dream about going back all time—is India. I love places that still feel like they're not discovered. Clearly, India's very discovered, but it's not as easy to travel there as it might be to go to Europe. I love Europe and Paris and London as much as the next person, but there's always something that feels a little easy in those spots. I love Southeast Asia. I went to Vietnam in the 90s a couple of times. I loved it. I love Malaysia. I love the food there. I love the smells and the culture. I love things that feel different. India couldn't be more different than our lives. A lot of the same people go between the two, between L.A. and India, for example, and you'll find a lot of creature comforts in places like Mumbai. The culture and the heritage and the history, the way of life and the way people look at life is so, so different, and I'm really drawn to that. I like going places that test me a little bit.   Sharon: How do your jewelry and travel intersect? I'm sure you're traveling to the shows like Basle. India must be a great place for jewels. I don't know about the shows there.   Victoria: My first trip to India was for a show. There's a famous show—famous, I guess, depending on the circles you move in—in Mumbai called the India International Jewelry Show. That was my first reason to get to India in 2004. I ended up going back to do some reports on the diamond trade there. Mumbai is a real hub of diamonds, so I was going back to do research and then Jaipur in the north. Rajasthan is famous for its colored-stone industry. There are tons of colored-stone dealers and cutters and jewelers there, including the very famous Gem Palace, which I visited a couple of times.   My most recent trip to India was in 2017 to Jaipur to attend a conference on colored stones. It happened to intersect with a fair I had always wanted to go to called the Pushkar Camel Fair. Nothing to do with jewelry, although of course you see lots of jewelry in India. Jewelry's a ubiquitous thing there. When I went to this conference in Jaipur, my partner ended up meeting me. We spent a few days in Jaipur together, went down to Udaipur, which is a wonderful town in the south of Rajasthan, just stunning in terms of its history and heritage and hotels and palaces. Then we finished off in Pushkar, also in Rajasthan, at this camel fair. My entrée was for jewelry, but I try to explore as much as I can around it.    India's just remarkable. I'm very pleased that jewelry has such a natural and obvious connection to India because anytime I can have a work trip, take me there. Then if I can add on to it, I do. My son is only three—he's not even three; he's three in November, but I'm thinking, “How old does he have to be to go to India? What is too young to take a young, little guy to India?” Maybe when he's seven, hopefully.    Sharon: That's an interesting question. It could be three. There are people who are 33 who won't go because they're too afraid. It's on my list, but you're so adventurous.   Victoria: I wouldn't have pegged myself as the adventurous sort, at least not in high school. I was very type A. I was student body president. I was a cheerleader. I was very on track at least to go to college and who knows what after that, but I never really thought of myself as a risktaker and an adventure seeker. After spending time in Southeast Asia—I went to backpack there in the 90s, through Vietnam and Cambodia and Malaysia and Singapore—it just settled in my bones. I wanted more and more and more. Those places feel adventurous, but once you get there, they're not as challenging—well, they are challenging in that there's a lot of poverty; the heat is oppressive; it's hard sometimes to figure out your way around if the signage isn't clear and you don't speak the language, but I genuinely feel like the world is full of very good people. Maybe a few bad apples in there, but most people are very kind. So, it's easier than it seems.   Sharon: Do you think if somebody is a jewelry designer or looking at the field or profession, that travel would inform what they do?   Victoria: Oh, 100 percent yes. There are some jewelers who very much look to other cultures or travel. I think of Lydia Courteille, who's a Parisian jeweler who does insanely elaborate, beautiful gem-set pieces usually after a trip somewhere. She's done pieces based on the Mayan heritage. I believe she traveled to Guatemala. She's done pieces based on myths from Russia and India, and a lot of her collections really are inspired by travel she's taken.    There's another jeweler who's part Mexican, part French, named Colette. She has incredible jewels, a lot of them takes on various places she's visited. I think if I were a jeweler, I would certainly use travel as a jumping-off point to create a collection. I can't think of anything more evocative than a jewel that reminds you of a place you've been or the color of the ocean. A lot of people go to Greece and create a beautiful blue jewel that reminds them of the Aegean. Why not?    Sharon: I'm thinking of Thierry Vendome, where he goes and finds rusted pieces on his travels and then he'll come back and incorporate them. One piece had a grenade—   Victoria: An exploded grenade.   Sharon: An exploded grenade, yeah. Tell us who we should keep our eyes on, the top three you think of we should keep our eyes on.   Victoria: I just wrote about a jeweler that I only saw in person recently in Las Vegas at the Couture show, but I had Zoomed with them. They are Mumbai-based. It's a company called Studio Renn. It's a husband and wife named Rahul and Roshni Jhaveri, and they create jewelry for art lovers that really does live at the intersection between art and jewelry, philosophy, design. Sometimes you have to talk to them to hear the inspiration, but for example, one of them—they had stumbled across an object on a walk around Lake Tansa, which is a lake on the outskirts of Mumbai. There was this conversation they had about what it means to give something attention. Does that put value on the piece? And for them, it was this exploration of the meaning of value. They took this piece that was an organic object. They didn't tell me what it was. They cast it. They 3D scanned the whole thing and then encased it in precious metal, put rubies inside it in a way that you could only see them if you shone a light on the piece. There was this written source of very layered, complicated but also beautiful jewelry. They're just very interesting. They're really thoughtful.   Sharon: How do you spell Renn?   Victoria: R-e-n-n.   Sharon: I have to say it's the second time this week that somebody has mentioned them as somebody to keep your eye on.   Victoria: Yeah, I was thrilled to speak to them, and I ended up doing a piece for the New York Times on them. An Up Next Profile is what the column is called, because even though they've been around for a few years and they're not brand new, they're obviously new to people in the States. They are exploring this market. They worked a tour for the first time. They're really lovely and interesting and do beautiful work.    Another jeweler that's gotten a ton of attention—I know her pretty well personally. She is a client of a very good friend of mine. Her name is Lauren Harwell Godfrey, and her collection is called Harwell Godfrey. She's gotten a ton of attention over the last year. In fact, I just saw that she was nominated for a GEM Award, which is like the Oscars of the jewelry industry. The ceremony takes place in January in New York. She was nominated in the design category. Really fantastic use of color, lots of interesting motifs that feel very signature to her, lots of geometric work. We ended up commissioning a piece for my mom for her 75th birthday that my dad gifted to her this last summer. it wasn't a super bespoke piece, but there were bespoke elements to it. It was by Harwell Godfrey. She's a really lovely woman, super-talented designer based in Marin in Northern California.   I'll name one more. He's a really interesting guy. He does a ton of work with AI, artificial intelligence, in a way that scares a lot of people that are used to jewelry as this handmade, soulful object. His point is that there's no less soul in it, even though a computer helped to generate an algorithm that created a pattern that he inputs into this machine. His name is Nick Koss. His company is called Volund Jewelry. He's based in Canada and has a very interesting background that I cannot even attempt to encapsulate because it's rich and complicated, but he does really interesting jewelry. A lot of it is using 3D modelling software, AI, but in a thoughtful way. Again, there is lots of meaning baked into the way he sees things. He could talk about it very intelligently. He does custom work. You can go down a real rabbit hole with him. Check him out on Instagram. It's V-o-l-u-n-d.   I have a soft spot for one jeweler because I wrote a whole book on them that was published by Assouline probably six or seven years ago. It's a company called Lotus Arts de Vivre. They're based in Bangkok. They've been around since the early 80s, I want to say. It's a real family business. The patriarch is originally from Germany. He moved to Bangkok in the 60s and fell in love with a woman who had been born in Thailand but was the product of many years of intermarriage. Her grandfather was a Scottish captain who fell in love with a tribeswoman from north Thailand. Her other grandfather was an Englishman who married a woman from Malaysia. So, she was the distillation of generations of inner marriage between European and Asian backgrounds. They have this huge compound in Bangkok, and they have two sons that now help run the business.    They do extraordinary objects in jewelry. They started out as jewelers, but they do everything from home goods to accessories for people's cars. They use a lot of natural materials in addition to the finest gemstones. They use Golconda diamonds or emeralds from the Panjshir Valley in Afghanistan combined with snakeskin and buffalo horn and different woods. They're huge on different exotic woods from across southeast Asia. They find the finest craftspeople across Asia, whether it's lacquer artists from China or Japan to carvers from Indonesia. They will employ those crafts in their work, and it's just stunning.    They used to be with Bergdorf Goodman for many, many years. They are still available in the States. In fact, they won at the recent Couture show for some of their work. So, they're still here and they're everywhere. They have boutiques in different hotels, especially in Asia, like the Peninsula in Hong Kong or Raffles in Singapore. They have a presence, but they're not as well known, I would say, in the States.   Sharon: I'll check them out, especially if you wrote a whole book about them.    Victoria: The family is beyond interesting. It's the von Bueren family. He's a raconteur, somebody who you could listen to for hours. He's very, very interesting and has seen a lot, and their clients are very interesting. They appeal to a lot of high-society people across Asia, so they have these events. They have a space, a showroom, at their factory in Bangkok right on the river, and they host these soirées that are just magnificent.   Sharon: Wow! I'm sure you know all the ins and outs. You can go down a long list of jewelers and manufacturers. You could tell me about all of them. Victoria, thank you so much for being here today. This is so interesting. I'm sure our audience will enjoy hearing what you have to say about JCK since it is such a stalwart. Thank you very much.   Victoria: Thank you, Sharon. This is lovely. Thank you for giving me such an opportunity to talk about myself.   Sharon: So glad to have you.   We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

Jennifer Warmann-Bloss joined Jill Devine on this week's episode. Jennifer is a licensed Esthetician, CEO of Elemental Esthetics and Blogger and has been working on clients since 2001. Being educated in Boston at one of the top Esthetics Schools in the country, the Catherine Hinds Institute, sets her base education apart from the average esthetician in St Louis. She prides herself on maintaining her education ongoing and additionally keeping you, the client, educated as well on the latest innovations in anti-aging. Her approach to services is to truly create a customized experience for anyone who comes through her doors. She doesn't simply follow the same protocols for all but instead develops a program designed to make you look your personal best. With personalized facial services, lasers, peels and more, she has all the tools necessary to make you look amazing. Additionally, Jennifer comes from a professional background with previous work experience in the high-tech world. She helped build and develop some of the first car dealer websites in the 90's when the internet was just developing, worked in e-mail marketing software and worked with predictive modeling software with Fortune 500 companies. This professional understanding of technology helped her greatly as she began to educate herself on lasers and many other business arenas of esthetics. On July 8th from 9:30-11:30am the Emsculpt bus will be in the Elemental Esthetics parking lot giving you an opportunity to try the Emsculpt at no cost to you. Emsculpt builds muscle and kills fat in areas like the abs, glutes, arms and more without pain or downtime. In honor of the bus being at Elemental Esthetics, they will be running Emsculpt on sale for all of July but a SPECIAL price on July 8th only to get you started with this great technology! Elemental Esthetics  777 South New Ballas Rd, Suite 302W St Louis, MO 63141 314-279-6069 Jill would like to acknowledge and recognize the hard work moms put in on the daily. It can be a thankless job at times, and Jill wants these moms to know their worth, so she created the Supermom Shoutout, brought to you by Addy's Way. Each recipient will receive a custom designed Supermom t-shirt from Addy's Way, in addition to the Shoutout. This is a Supermom Shoutout first! Five amazing young women are getting the shoutout this week. I'm nominating Dorothy, Erica, Meg, Sarah, and Victoria: Dorothy, Erica, Meg, Sarah, and Victoria met each other in September of 2019 as part of their Messiah Lutheran Church's Community Group launch. Since that initial meeting, they've been through ups and downs which have only made their bond that much stronger. God's timing was truly everything because each of the women now having something else to bond them closely to one another. Each woman is pregnant or has recently had a baby. To be able to share such a pivotal moment in their lives with one another is a blessing. Dorothy, Erica, Meg, Sarah, and Victoria - YOU are seen and YOU are supported! To nominate a Supermom (or you can nominate yourself) email hello@jilldevine.com. Submit the name of the Supermom, where they're from, and a brief description as to why Jill should shout out this particular Supermom. Two Kids and A Career Website: https://www.jilldevine.com/ Two Kids and A Career Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jilldevine/?hl=en Two Kids and A Career Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JillDevineMedia/ Thank you to our sponsor: Blondin Professional Real Estate

This school year is FINALLY ending (thank god for small favors) and we are packing up our minimally used classrooms. For many teachers, this will be their last time having to do this. Covid caused many to throw in the eraser this year and turned in keys. They will look forward to new challenges this coming fall that don't entail lesson plans and students. But for others, who are holding newly minted diplomas and teaching credentials, this summer offers time to plan for a new classroom and get ready for the beginning of an exciting, rigorous, and rewarding profession. With that in mind, today's episode will be especially interesting and informative. We depart a bit from our usual back and forth banter to welcome a guest, Victoria Lucido! Vickie has recently retired after 33 years as a middle school History and Drama teacher. Her teaching ability has been recognized by “Who's Who of American Teachers” seven times, and she was awarded “Monterey Teacher of the Year” in 1999 by Monterey Rotary. Now, she has a new book out called, Classroom Confidential: How I survived 33 years in a public school classroom, and you can too! This book gives new teachers access to 33 years of experience in just 160 pages! Today Victoria joins Jen and Anne to share her best advice for beginners. Even us old pros can pick up a new insight or two. So grab a notepad and pencil and get ready for the advice you wish you would have learned in all those fancy college credential classes, but didn't! Stay tuned! For more about Victoria: You can find her book on Amazon Her website, VictoriaLucidoBooks.com where you can find out about appearances and her many accomplishments. YouTube interview here and Read an article from the Monterey Herald --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/transparencyinteaching/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/transparencyinteaching/support

Welcome to Off the Shelf! You can follow me on Instagram here: Phoebe @ Pause Books HQ (@pausebooks)  You can follow me on Twitter: Phoebe @ Pause Books HQ (@PauseBooks)  My guest this week is Victoria: You can follow her on Instagram here: Victoria Mortimer (@theunlikelyaccountant)  You can listen to her podcast here: The Unlikely Accountant 

Victoria: Hey everyone, it’s Sensei Victoria Whitfield here, your journey partner in business, welcoming you back to episode 162 of the Journeypreneur Podcast. This is your source for channeled holistic stress management techniques, guidance, inspiration and motivation to stay on your path to rapid financial ascension and massive impact as a conscious entrepreneur. * So in this podcast episode, I have the honor of getting to share with you the story and work of sister goddess Michelle Dickinson. You can find her at MichelleEDickinson.com.  So I really want to make sure that you're able to connect with her. She is the author of "Breaking Into My Life." You can go find that on Amazon right now and order up her book as well as she does resilience work. She works with organizations to shift their culture, to create compassionate workplaces for individuals and for teams. Michelle, Goddess, welcome to the podcast. Michelle: Thank you so much for having me. I must say it's a pleasure to be here with you. I love your energy and what you're up to. Victoria: Thank you! Oh, the feeling is mutual. So this may be the very first time someone is getting to hear about you and what you do in the world or see you and learn more. So I was wondering if you could share with us in your own words exactly what it is you do, and especially what are the three things that you're known for. Could you tell us? Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I think if you were to ask those around me what I'm known for, they would probably say I'm an author of the book that you mentioned, which is rooted in my TED talk. I gave a TED talk about growing up with my mom who had bipolar disorder. So that's the second thing. And the third would be that I am a new entrepreneur. I'm fairly new in the space and after leaving the corporate world behind. So it's a very exciting time. So they would say she's a new entrepreneur and wants to change the world. So, yeah, I'm sure you'll hear I feel quite pleased to change the world. Victoria: We need all that now more than ever. And so that makes me curious, though. So take me into it. Like, what inspired you to become an entrepreneur and to really commit to this purpose, sharing your gifts in your in a business of your own? Like what? Is there a story there? Michelle: For sure. I mean, you know, I I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that I am so clear as to why I'm on this planet. And I can't say that I knew that even five years ago. I'm deeply connected to the work I do. So I grew up with a mother who had bipolar disorder. I cared for her for a very large period of my my life, even up until I was an adult. So I saw what it looks like to suffer. Right. And I felt what her suffering felt like. And then so that was my first perspective about mental health. Right. I dealt with seasonal depression periodically as an adult. But then last I think it was two years ago, I was diagnosed with depression myself for the first time. And so I know what that feels like. And then I also was in a workplace where we were trying to create compassion at work. But yet I had a boss who was not compassionate. And as soon as I felt that, I stopped and said, "I can get angry or I can say to myself, I need to be the change that I want to see in the world and I need to be the one creating more compassion and understanding." So those those are the three lenses that I have on mental health. And when I felt that lack of compassion was the fire, at that point, the fire was lit in my belly to be the change. And so, I mean, that was really it. If you would ask me a few years ago, what are you going to do? What are you going to be when you grow up? I would have said I'm going to retire into the sunset of my corporate job, and that's it. But there was a bigger plan for me - in just giving my TED talk, writing my memoir and getting really connected to this work. And honestly, it's the power of storytelling. When I tell my story, it opens the door. It creates an access for other people to not feel so alone and isolated. So if I could go first and tell my story, and it opens up something for someone else that brings me all the joy and fulfillment that I could ever ask for. Victoria: You know, storytelling is one of the oldest forms of human gathering technologies, like being able to gather people and organize. It's been around: oratory, right? And so that connection and sharing how, through sharing the experience of what you've been through, it's almost as if vicariously a person receives that same learning by encountering the story with you. It's a really powerful, powerful technique. -Let's talk about it! Feel like you’ve got a Money Block stopping or slowing your business growth? Need help clearing that block, so that you can get your next-level abundance breakthrough?  Take the assessment at http://www.victoriawhitfield.com/quiz to find out, and apply for a Breakthrough Call with me!

Episode 9: Freedom in Sexuality Sex. We are taught to fear it, be good at it, control it, protect it, and for many of us hide it. Our convoluted view of Sexuality is a combination of Sex Talks given by parents, pastors, friends, and society. But for most of us our first beliefs about sex can be summed up by Coach Carr from Mean Girls: “Don't have sex, because you will get pregnant and die!” Needless to say, Sex can be a bit of  a touchy subject. And it gets so much more confusing as we get older! Because now that we've figured out we won't actually die from having Sex, we are faced with insecurities, shame, and feelings of inadequacy when we get in the sheets with a partner or ourselves. So how do we heal our sexuality and begin to see if as a source of pleasure and connection? Today, we hold the mic up to a very vulnerable conversation about our own journey with Sexuality.  Episode Notes:  -Guided breath work with Laura -Guided meditation with Victoria -What we were taught about sex -Ways we use Control in Sexuality -Desire for connection through sex. -Tinder/Bumble and all the dating Apps -Laura's story of meeting her boyfriend on Tinder -Process of being friends before dating -Balancing the feminine/masculine in sexuality -How we can see space in relationships as a gift -Different types of connection within relationships -Managing your own sexuality within relationships -Managing the Ego in Sexuality -Energetic opportunity in regards to Valentines Day -Checking in with yourself on your own sexuality -Manifesting with Sexuality  Resources Mentioned: -The goop Lab: The Pleasure is Ours (Available on Netflix) -Get your free birth chart https://astro.cafeastrology.com/natal.php Please remember to subscribe, rate, review the podcast on iTunes. Tag us and Share the episode on Instagram tag us at @thegeneratorpodcast let us know what you think. You can email us at thegeneratorpodcast@gmail.com or dm us on Instagram.  Share with a friend that you think would be inspired by it. follow us and let us know your thoughts and anything you'd like to hear. You can also check out our website and learn more about our coaching services/and Astrological Readings, and our latest blog posts at the thegeneratorpodcast.online.  Want to win a 30 minute astro reading?? Here's how! Subscribe, Rate & Review this episode Screen shot us and DM us @thegeneratorpodcast or email us at: thegeneratorpodcast@gmail.com Screenshot your favorite part of the episode to Instagram, tag us, and share it in your story.  Every time you stare an episode in your story, review the podcast, or share it to your news feed (bonus points for that) you will be entered to win a 30 minute astrological reading with Victoria. Winner will announced on March 24th's episode!  Can't wait til then? Book your reading today! Go to: https://stephensconsulting.as.me/astrology And use the code GENERATOR for 10% off Thanks so much for listening! Quotes: “Sex is about connection.” -Laura “Having trust in sexuality allows you to feel safe.” -Victoria “Dating is hard because you're having to build a friendship while simultaneously facing your triggers.” -Victoria “When there is space created in a relationship, it's not a punishment”-Victoria “Polarity is necessary to have a healthy sex life.” -Victoria “You have power over how you respond to others within your sexuality” -Victoria "Society teaches women to control men with our sexuality.” -Victoria “We need to ask ourselves if we are giving life to our relationship or are we using it as a life line?”   -Victoria “When pain comes to the surface it means it's ready to heal.” -Victoria “Sexuality is first about our connection with ourself.” -Victoria 

Episode 8: Masculine & Feminine Energy Part One Yin/Yang. Sun/Moon. Day/Night. Masculine & Feminine energy is everywhere in nature including inside of all of humanity. Regardless of how you identify: male, female, trans, binary, non-binary, you have both masculine and feminine energy inside of you. In today's episode we dive into just what masculine and feminine energy is, and how we can heal it both within ourselves as well as in our society. As a culture we are experiencing a deconstructing of the masculine. This has been very difficult for all us regardless of how we feel about the Patriarchy. Why? because what happens on the macro, is happening in the micro. So in every single relationship including the one we have with ourselves, we are undergoing a massive healing of the divine masculine. But how do we handle this? What's the role of the Divine Feminine? And how do we find balance within ourselves?  -What masculine and feminine is not. -Toxic masculine and feminine energy. -Victoria's process with balancing masculine energy within. -How to heal masculinity  -Using feminine energy to heal culture -Conversation on the cultural views of masculine and femininity  -Finding expanders to support your growth Quotes: “I didn't get along with masculine men because I refused to embody my femininity.” -Laura “Feminine energy is internal and masculine energy is eternal.” -Victoria “We need to heal the masculine and feminine sides of ourselves so that we can find balance within.” -Victoria  “We need to be more focused on healing masculinity than derailing patriarchy.” -Victoria “We need to be focused on healing the masculine not fight it.” -Victoria “We have a right to stand up and create space to have a voice in a dominant masculine culture. Its our job as woman to stand in our power and say what we need.”-Victoria “Toxic masculinity might not be our fault but its our responsibility to help heal.” -Victoria “You have to feel to heal.” -Victoria “We can step forward and still let others heal.” -Victoria “Wherever you are on the healing journey is the right place for you. Don't compare.” -Laura “Seeing healthy femininity embodied in others allowed me to make peace with my own.” -Laura “You can take aspects of what people are good at and let it expand you.” -Laura Please remember to subscribe, rate, review the podcast on iTunes. Tag us and Share the episode on Instagram tag us at @thegeneratorpodcast let us know what you think. You can email us at thegeneratorpodcast@gmail.com or dm us on Instagram. Share with a friend that you think would be inspired by it. follow us and let us know your thoughts and anything you'd like to hear. You can also check out our website and learn more about our coaching services/and Astrological Readings, and our latest blog posts at the thegeneratorpodcast.online.  10% off an Astrological Reading with Victoria:  Go to: https://stephensconsulting.as.me/astrology And use the code GENERATOR  Thanks so much for listening!

Welcome to 2020! This is the year of significant shifting and expansion. We have been waking up for awhile, but in 2020 we will see a massive shift both on a micro and macro level. But first, let's take a moment to ground and celebrate where we've been in order to be anchor ourselves for where we are going. Join us as we reflect on 2019, celebrate where we've been, and casting vision for where we're going.  Episode Notes:  -Vote on what to call the Generator Podcast community. 1 vote for “The Generator Gaggle.” Welcoming other names and votes.  -Laura's take aways from 2019. -Victoria's highlights of 2019. -Ways Laura has seen Victoria grow. -Ways Victoria has seen Laura grow. -Navigating disappointments within 2019. -Being ok with not having vision for 2020 -Redefining success for yourself. -Choosing self love over punishment and its effect. -Victoria's 3 month challenge on taking care of herself with food. -Laura's intentions for 2020. -Energetic astrology update.  -Victoria's Intentions for 2020. -Energetics of 2020 -Capricorn energy. -2020 is a Heart Chakra year (green color). -Creating self love practices instead of performance. -The power of forgiveness.  -Intentions for the Podcast in 2020. Let us know what your intentions are for 2020 via Instagram/Email: thegeneratorpodcast@gmail.com Be sure to follow us on Instagram @thegeneratorpodcast.  Also check out our website thegeneratorpodcast.online There, you can learn more about us, enjoy weekly blogs, and even find out more information about our coaching services. Thank you so much for listening! Remember to rate, review, and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Quotes:    “When you go into control you see things like tunnel vision, and you're unable to see the solutions and support surrounding you.” -Laura “Control is resistance.” -Victoria “Control can create problems that aren't actually there.” -Victoria "Control is deceptive because it creates and perpetuates the problem. It says if you let go of the problem it will persist.” -Victoria “I can be ok even if others around me are not ok.” -Victoria “It's one thing to take care of yourself by yourself. It's another when you add a relationship.” -Victoria “When there is movement forward it can feel like you're moving backwards first.” -Victoria “No one has lived your life the way you have so it's important that you create the definition of success for you.” -Laura  “Set an intention of self-love with transformation rather than punishment.” -Laura “Trust your future self will have the solutions to whatever problems arise for you.” -Victoria “You can only love others to the extent that you love yourself.” -Laura “Chaos is the opposite of control.” -Victoria “If you don't put up healthy boundaries you can't stay heart open.”-Victoria “I just want people to know you're not alone, and you're ok in whatever place of your process you're in.” -Victoria “When you set an intention the universe comes to support it.” -Victoria

In today's episode we are joined by Samuel, Victoria's younger brother. Laura interviews the two siblings about loosing their father in a tragic car accident December of 1992. We start out by hearing a bit of witty banter between Samuel and the girls followed by an intro with Laura and Victoria.  In today's intro we cover:  -Victoria and Laura processing the launch of The Generator Podcast. -Victoria's 30th Birthday -Air Moon Signs: Gemini/Libra -The building Capricorn energy -Eclipse updates. What to expect Dec 26th.  -Our message to anyone who has lost a loved one this year.    In today's episode we cover: -Grieving with a sibling: the similarities and differences. -Timeline of grieving. Is it ever really over? -Missing your parent during special events and  milestones. -Suppression vs expression of grief -Metaphysical experiences with their father.  -The different emotions and process of grieving -Anger in grieving.  -Lessons and stories learned through grief.   Quotes from the episode:  “Its only pain. You're not being injured, you're just going through pain. It won't kill you.” -Samuel “As you're going through suffering you're becoming stronger.” -Samuel “I made friends with my grief and began to build a relationship with it.” -Victoria “I don't think grief ever stops but It gets more manageable.” -Samuel “Grief is there to protect you and keep you sane. Befriending your grief allows you to ride the different waves of it.”  -Samuel “Moving on from grief shouldn't be the goal.” -Samuel “When you befriend your grief it allows you to welcome others into it with you. When you suppress it, you end up isolating yourself from others.” -Victoria “If you hate your grief then every time it comes around, you abandon yourself and feel abandoned by others in it. If I don't know how to deal with it I can't invite others into it.” -Victoria “Anger is a healthy part of grief. You have to let that out.” -Victoria “You don't have to compare your pain to others in order to validate them. Just let other people feel sad.” -Victoria  “Let your grief evolve and take another form rather than trying to get rid of it.” -Victoria  “Our societal demonization of pain has lead us into an addiction to the comforts of complacency.”  -Samuel “Its normal to wake up sad sometimes. Its not inherently bad and doesn't mean you're broken. ”     -Samuel We would love to connect with you, so be sure to follow us on Instagram @thegeneratorpodcast to see Samuel's amazing Spiritual AF shirt, as well as his robe and pipe swag. Be sure to also check out our website thegeneratorpodcast.online. There, you can learn more about us, enjoy weekly blogs, and even find out more information about our coaching services. Thank you so much for listening! Remember to rate, review, and subscribe so you'll never miss an episode.   

We are running the second Cultivator Program. This definitely is a world-first program and we are so excited The investor who backed our first farm (Freeland Pork) has confirmed they are willing to back another farmer, so we are ready to go. The program is for aspiring farmers who want to farm in Victoria only. If you are anywhere else in Australia, we want you to be jealous and talk to all your farming, government and community groups to kick up a stink and fight to get us to do a program in your area. We are ready. The program kicks off in early 2020 but we are making a list of willing farmers - so email sam@cultivatefarms.com if you want to know more.   Requirements: - Know how to run a farm and feel confident to co-own with an investor - Want to farm in Victoria - You can commit time to pulling a farm proposal together (Detailed plan, finances and 2 minute video) - Could pay $4,000 to be part of the program   Summary: Australian agricultural production is set to increase from $60B to $100B by 2030, and the average age of farmers is 59, 20 years older than most industries. 50% of farmers are expected to retire within the next 15 years. $400B in investment dollars needs to be invested in a new generation of young people to take over the farms. If we don't inspire the best to become farmers, our regional communities will continue to decline as our farms become bigger and less family-oriented. Cultivate Farms established the Cultivator program in 2017, a world first farm investment incubator. The first program had 13 participants and a Kyabram free range pig farming couple were backed by an investor in mid 2018 (Freeland Pork). The course has been upgraded and will provide bespoke support to each farmer over 6 months where participants develop a farm pitch which will be presented to an investor. What is exciting is that one farm will be backed by the investor and we expect more investors to sign up along the journey. The best applicant will then build a relationship with the investor over a number of months and once both parties are comfortable with the farm ownership plan, they will seek a farm and purchase it together. All other participants will have a farm pitch document, renewed confidence and the skills to attract investors or convince retiring farmers to transition ownership to them.  

Beep & CC are joined by “May We Geek Again” co-host Jo to discuss Episode 2.06 “Immortal” Jo enters the gauntlet How film & television influence our perception of historical eras This episode looks like a 1970s film The many meanings of “Immortal” Cole “Coles” so hard at hide & seek How children view morality We are set up to believe Kyle Slade Moral choices & partiality 1970s films & disillusionment 12 Monkeys: a series of portraits of New York City Welcome to Fear City: NYC during the Summer of 1975 The rise of serial killers during the 1970s Kyle Slade wants to be the hero of this story Pancakes are delicious! Oh, Victoria “You’re about to father a child & change the course of history” The perfect moral quandary for Ramse & Cole A moral dilemma loop The ethics of being a bystander This episode is a study in what factors affect moral choices Detective Damato sure isn’t Agent Gale Cole “Coles” so hard again Your life is not your own anymore Kyle Slade: true & false Olivia delivers the opening argument in favor of the red forest… …and Shaw will deliver the closing argument Cassie & epic foreshadowing “He made it sound almost beautiful.” “Death is everything.” The ebb & flow of Cassie & Jennifer’s friendship

On this episode of the DistantJob Podcast, we’re proud to present Victoria Haidamus, Product Manager at Officeless and Startae.Victoria talks to us (among many, many other things!) about what top performers come looking for when they consider joining your company; the importance of virtualizing small workplace rituals; and how to build and benefit from a company with a network structure, as opposed to flat or hierarchical. (DJ Podcast drinking game: have a drink whenever Luis mispronounces “hierarchical”! Such is life.)And if you would like to receive the transcript of this episode and previous episodes to read, annotate and love forever and ever (creepy!), subscribe at https://distantjob.com/blog/category/podcast/Want to continue the conversation with Victoria? You can reach her by following her on Twitter ( @vhaidamus ) or LinkedIn ( www.linkedin.com/in/vhaidamus/  ).As always, if you enjoy the podcast, we humbly ask that you leave a review on iTunes or your podcast syndication service of choice – and if you could share it, that would be even better!Need that one incredible employee to bolster your team?  Get in touch at https://distantjob.com/contact/  and we’ll find you who you need.

Here's a little story about the changing of seasons, I pray it is encouraging to all who are currently in a challenging season. For at least 18 months, possibly longer, I have had this password on my computer, 'new day dawning.' (Now I'm going to have to change it!). Given that I frequently use my computer throughout the day, I was often typing these words and saying them quietly under my breath, 'It's a new day dawning.' I probably declared them at least 30 times a day over our family.  It was a prophetic statement that God was bringing our family into a new season. It started as a faith declaration as our actual circumstances were not reflecting that in anyway. But there was a sense in my heart that we were on the cusp of something new. A few weeks ago it was my birthday and I was having some time for myself and was hungry to hear from God. At 47 years old, after some very difficult years, I wondered what was He going to say to me? I was reading Luke 5:37-39 from The Passion Translation. Jesus is talking to his disciples. And who pours new wine into an old wineskin? If someone did, the old wineskin would burst and the new wine would be lost. New wine must always be poured into new wineskins. Yet you say, 'The old ways are better,' and you refuse to even taste the new that I bring'. Luke 5:37-39 TPT I felt God challenge me with these words, 'Are you open, really open to taste the new things that I am going to bring into your life?' As God was asking me these questions I was reminded of the new song from Hillsong, New Wine. So I sat in bed listening to that song over and over again, Make me a vessel Make me an offering Make me whatever you want me to be I came here with nothing but all you have given me Jesus bring new wine out of me The more I listened, the more those words became the cry of my heart, totally surrendering my life and my plans. There was a growing desire to do all that God wanted me to do. It was as though God was asking me, Are you ready to take all those years of crying out to Me, pressing in, hanging on and trusting that I would bring you through, and lay them down and let me do something new? A big question. Am I? Can I? Will I? Yes. Yes. And yes. So why am I sharing this God encounter with you? Simply to encourage those who are still in a night season, possibly feeling like David was in Psalm 13. How long, O LORD? Will You forget me forever? How long will You hide Your face from me? How long shall I take counsel in my soul? Having sorrow in my heart daily? How long will my enemy be exalted over me? Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes,  Lest I sleep the sleep of death; Lest my enemy say, I have prevailed against him"; Lest those who trouble me rejoice when I am moved. But I have trusted in Your mercy; My heart shall rejoice in Your salvation. I will sing to the LORD, Because He has dealt bountifully with me. Psalm 13 NKJV   Over the years people have said to me, 'This won't last forever' and at times I struggled to believe that. As when you are in the night season it is so difficult to see beyond it. In that season Ephesians 3:20-21 was one of the scriptures I spent time daily meditating on ... Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 3:20-21 NKJV Amen. So be it - in your life and in mine.  Hebrews 11:1 was on the back of our toilet door, a reminder to just believe ... Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 NKJV Even as I am writing this post today, sharing the hope that a new season will arrive in your life and mine, making the declaration that a new day is dawning, there is a niggly voice trying to get into my head, saying, 'What about that upcoming scan for Victoria? You know this could all be a lie, perhaps you haven't heard this from God. What a fool you are making of yourself.' But to that voice I choose to say, 'No, you are a liar,' and declare Ephesians 3:20-21 Never doubt God's mighty power to work in you and accomplish all this. He will achieve infinitely more than your greatest request, your most unbelievable dream, and exceed your wildest imagination! He will outdo them all, for his miraculous power constantly energises you. Now we offer up to God all the glorious praise that rises from every church in every generation through Jesus Christ - and all that will yet be manifest through time and eternity. Amen. Ephesians 3:20-21 The Passion Translation I pray that you will be able to recognise the enemy's voice when he comes to kill, steal and destroy your dreams and your declarations of faith to move into a new season. So that you can declare God's goodness and faithfulness over your life, and trust that a new season is on the way. To find out more please visit https://wendyrobinson.com.au

If you find yourself answering the same questions over and over (and getting super excited about answering those questions!) maybe you need to think about adding a teaching element to your business. That's what today's guest did, and we learned a ton from her! On the Podcast 00:30 - Meet Alice + Our Surprise Co-Host1:46 - Stocking an Ecommerce Store5:25 - Figuring Out Order Fulfilment7:26 - Rebranding & When Your Business Has Two Customer Groups13:45 - From Service-Based Business to Teaching Others17:42 - How Do You Run Two Businesses At Once!?20:10 - Growing An Audience for Your Online Course22:08 - Leveraging Video Marketing26:20 - Alice’s Embarrassing Mom Moment28:26 - Doula Labor Tips for Beth Anne Listen Now Meet Alice + Our Surprise Co-Host Beth Anne: I’m so excited to welcome Alice Turner of Your Doula Bag.com. She’s a birth doula, a Lamaze Certified Childbirth Educator, and an online business owner which is SO cool. She has over 10 years of experience working as a doula and has translated that into having a successful e-commerce store as well as selling online courses. She’s a mom of 4 kids and has a supportive husband, too. Welcome to the show, Alice! Alice: Hi! Beth Anne: And I forgot to let everyone know, this is an extra special interview because Victoria from our team is also here! Welcome! Victoria: Yeah, thank you! I didn’t want to let the cat out of the bag too early. A lot of you may know I’m also a doula as well, and I’m a customer of Alice’s business. It’s a fun connection. Hopefully, it’ll be helpful for the interview. (Also, if you’re a keen listener, you might notice that part of our conversation got cut out at this point. Due to some tech issues, we lost part of Alice’s interview. Technology works until it doesn’t, am I right?) Beth Anne: I love that! Victoria, do you want to jump in with a question? Stocking an Ecommerce Store Victoria: Alice, I would like to ask you about your e-commerce store. I want to talk about that before your online courses. One thing I’d love to know is how do you choose what you’d like to stock in your store. How do you choose which products to keep? I imagine it’s a bit different than keeping a brick and mortar storefront. Alice: It’s definitely different! The store has been around since 2009. I really started out with just practical tools, thinking doulas mostly wanted tools for their bag. But it seems that doulas are also interested in more fun products! So I started to add fun things like tee shirts, buttons, and stickers. It’s been a balance to know what to stock but I get some ideas when I go to a conference. I might attend a doula or childbirth education conferences, have different products on the table, and see what draws people’s attention and what they get excited about. From there I can change what I’m offering online to match the needs of my customers. Sometimes I get emails asking why I don’t carry a certain product. Or they’ll say something like, “I can buy everything I need except one thing, can you start carrying that?” That’s easy! It’s always fun to see what’s lacking and where I can make up. Victoria: I do have a followup question, but first I want to say going to conferences is a good strategy. Attending conferences is a great idea for people who might be struggling to work online, wishing they had an in-person connection. Set up a booth and see what people gravitate toward on your table! My follow-up question is this: do you have tools to manage your inventory? Do you use online tools? A spreadsheet? Alice: My store is on the Shopify platform. It’s pretty easy to manage inventory that way. I use their built-in tools to keep an eye on it. It’s still a bit challenging, trying to balance between selling products and teaching. I thought these two arms of my business would be more alike, but they are actually very different. I thought there’d be a lot of back and forth between my customers, and that the same person who bought a T-shirt would want also want to buy a course, but it’s not the case. That has been a surprise to me! Figuring Out Order Fulfilment Beth Anne: My online store is also on Shopify. I love it! It’s so easy to set up. And I do want to touch on the point about your customers being different in a moment, but I’m curious about one thing first. Do you stock everything out of your home and fulfill orders yourself? Or is there another system you’re using? Alice: That’s a great question, and it’s changed along the way. Starting off I was all on my own with a closet full of inventory. But as the business grew with more orders, I contracted out shipping to someone in my neighborhood actually. They had all my inventory and did the shipping for me, I just passed the orders through. That arrangement worked out well until she was unable to continue doing it late last year. It’s back to me and it’s pretty challenging. I haven’t formally announced this yet, but I will be looking for a buyer for the products part of my business sometime this year. It’s a new development, but I’ve found that there isn’t as much overlap as I thought between my customers. I think it might be time to formally separate the two businesses. Beth Anne: Very interesting! I think it makes sense. At some point, you can spread yourself too thin, and you want to dig deep into one branch of your business instead. Alice: Yeah, exactly. It is a time for growth, but also sad to a point. I do love the product aspect of my business but if I really want to focus on helping doulas run their businesses, I should spend more of my time there, which is my company mission. It’s all in the works. Victoria: So our BBM ladies can follow you and keep out an eye for your all-call for a buyer! Awesome. Rebranding & When Your Business Has Two Customer Groups And as you were just saying, the customers of your courses and products are different; can you talk a little more about that? How did you notice? Do you have ways of talking specifically to one group and then the other? How do you manage to talk to two separate people in your business? Alice: Yes, that’s been challenging and fun to figure out. I would say I try to do blog posts and videos about the business side. And we’ll do sales and share about that on Instagram on more of a product side since that really lends itself to pictures. But when I write blog posts or make videos, it’s not really about a product or how to use a product; it’s more about the business, like how to set up an electronic contract, for example. Beth Anne: We’ve certainly found the same thing to be true here. Victoria runs our planner Instagram account, but when it comes to selling business courses that’s where I use webinars and videos to teach and sell. Alice: That’s awesome! Beth Anne: So I know you’re rebranding, going from Your Doula Bag to 100% Doula. The whole idea of rebranding seems overwhelming and scary to me. All sorts of stressful things! I’d love to hear more from you about what that looks like. What are the steps you’ve gone through? Alice: It is very daunting. And it has taken a while for me to come to the decision to break out of the product-side of my business. I found that when I started offering different types of things like products, classes, and webinars, it was confusing to my customer. For example, they’d say, “Don’t you sell those backpacks I love?” and I’d respond, “I do! And I also sell courses to help you grow your business.” It just wasn’t consistent. Especially keeping the name Your Doula Bag felt more like a product-based business to me. 100% Doula was a name that had more flexibility and is more of an umbrella over all my products and services. But getting the word out has been a slow trickle. Instagram made it easy to change my name, and Twitter was super easy to rebrand. No one actually said anything after I changed those two platforms! Facebook is much harder to change, and more of an involved process. I’m not completely there with educating all my customers. A lot of people still know me as Your Doula Bag. I have even had some customers seem sad that I was changing my business name! That’s been interesting to handle, too. From Service-Based Business to Teaching Others Beth Anne: I love, Alice, how you took your service-based business, which you still do, and turned it into an online business course. You have an awesome online business course for doulas, and you still practice as a doula. A lot of women out there have a fabulous skill they could teach on, but would be nervous to turn that skill set into a course. What advice would you give that woman? How did you move to that online business space? Alice: I love being a doula. I love talking about the work, reading about it, and thinking about it. It just really gets me excited. I keep talking about attending conferences, and even though there aren’t that many, the ones I’ve attended have had a big impact on my business decisions. When I would go to a conference and talk informally with people, I found that I was answering a lot of questions. Maybe a doula would say, “I’m trying to balance childcare and being a doula.” I could say, “That was hard for me too, but I figured it out this way.” Or I might be answering a question about how I use Twitter to grow my business. I realized I didn’t know anyone who is out there talking about running a business as a doula, or selling products to doulas. Maybe that was something I can do. There was a gap in the offerings, and maybe I could fill it. Since then, definitely, other companies are filling that gap, which is exciting. But after I found that I was answering a lot of questions, I thought I could be the one to give information. I’m thinking about someone who might be on the fence about their business, but finds themselves often to be the person in a group answering everyone’s questions; it only makes sense that they would be a great person to teach and help others. I’m still doing the work of a doula because it really is what I love. Some of my customers see a picture on Instagram of where I’m at a hospital at a birth and will write back surprised that I’m still working as a doula. Of course, I’m still a doula! I don’t want to give that up because I have other stuff going on. It’s a job I can learn from. And if I’m teaching about it, I think it’s important to stay relevant. Victoria: I have two thoughts. 1) I think it’s great you noticed you were getting the same questions a lot and thought you could be the one to answer it. That’s the spark of an entrepreneur! You’ve got a problem? I’ve got the solution. Hopefully, that’s inspiring to others. You also don’t seem to have a scarcity mindset, which is really refreshing. How Do You Run Two Businesses At Once!? And 2) Could you talk a bit more about practicing as a doula while running a separate business? I know a lot of our ladies have many interests and sometimes you can feel crazy pursuing two things at one. How do you keep those two businesses separate? Or does it feel like one in the same? Alice: Well in my case, the businesses are certainly connected. In my doula service business, I have the luxury of having a lot of repeat clients. Many of my clients go on to have other babies, so I’m able to slack off a bit in the marketing side of my personal doula business and spend the marketing energy on my other online programs. I feel lucky I’m able to get enough clients just by referrals from prior clients and repeat clients. Victoria: One business can coast, and one is more in hustle mode. Alice: Exactly. I am trying to teach more childbirth classes, and I’m working with a new group we formed of Lamaze educators here in Atlanta. Unfortunately, I don’t have as much time as I want to devote to that, but I try to make peace with that in my head that I at least keep myself in the game, but not having to spend tons of energy on growing that particular business. Growing An Audience for Your Online Course Beth Anne: Okay, so this is what I see a lot of women maybe struggling with. You had essentially your service-based business on autopilot thanks to an awesome referral network, but then you go online. Maybe a mom is wondering how she’ll get those first customers for her online course? I know you have some conference connections. Was it word of mouth to get those first students in the door? Or were there other marketing strategies that helped you grow? Alice: I think what helped with getting the course started and growing it is that I was already doing a fair amount of regular blogging and videos. I would do videos on topics related to growing a doula business, and as my email list was growing I could send them new info about what I was doing. Because the course is video based, that helped since people already knew my style from my YouTube video and could assume a course would be similar. Before I launched the course, I was doing a few Google Live Hangouts to talk business. That helped get the word out about what I did and what I was talking about. And, of course, social media. I tried to post about the same topics I would be teaching in the courses. (You can watch Alice’s videos on her YouTube channel.) Victoria: I think it’s so great to see solid marketing strategies as a base. If you have a good base, you can turn it to whatever direction your business needs to go. Leveraging Video Marketing We were just talking about social media marketing and using videos and you definitely do a lot of that. And I'm a fan! Why did you start using video? What makes a good video? How do you know what makes a good video? Alice: I love using video! When I was hearing your question I was thinking how I got started. I can’t remember what exactly forced me to turn on the camera back then, but I really love learning from video. And I just know that YouTube is so easy. When I started, Facebook Live wasn’t available, but just the fact that you can turn on a camera and reach people easily is so cool. And blogging isn’t my favorite. I hire out people to help me write. I don’t really love just sitting down and writing; I would much rather have a conversation about the topic. If I could sit down to coffee with someone and tell them how to get clients, I would love that! But if I had to write a paper on it, I’d hate it!  So I did YouTube videos pretty regularly. And this year I’ve done more Facebook Live. They’re both good, but a bit different. The live component is really fun. I don’t mind winging it when I'm talking about a subject I love. Victoria: With using YouTube, were you always cognisant about SEO and tagging and keywords? Or did you not worry about it? Alice: No, I did try to get the description right, with a link back to my website. I do put thought into that. But usually, my ideas for YouTube come thinking about what I should blog about. Alice’s Embarrassing Mom Moment Beth Anne: Alice thank you so much for chatting with us today! It’s been really fun seeing how you’ve mastered so many different areas of business. You’re really rocking and rolling, and I know it’ll inspire other moms to get clients or students. As we wrap up, we always ask our guests to share a funny or adorable mom moment. Alice: I do have a funny moment, but I don’t look like the best mom in it. I was having a particularly busy day. I was probably packing up boxes, sitting in the shipping area of my house and trying to get stuff done after dinner. I was tired and busy, you get it. So my oldest daughter, who’s in high school, started telling me about something at school and I was getting frustrated with her because she was slowing me down. I didn’t say it, but inside I was thinking, “Can you just go do your homework?” I asked her why she needed me. And she said, “I’m writing a speech about why you should have a doula and I wanted to interview you.” So I don’t know if that’s a funny moment, but I felt bad and laughed at the same time. And I told her I was so sorry to be getting frustrated with her when there she was wanting to write a speech about me. Beth Anne: I think that’s the epitome of being a business mom. You’re always feeling busy and overwhelmed, and it can be hard to always stop and be attentive to what our kids need. But our kids are always watching and viewing us as these role models even when we don’t feel like we’re being a role model. Alice: The good news is she made a very good grade on her speech and was very knowledgeable! Doula Labor Tips for Beth Anne Victoria: I’m throwing in a fun question. We know Beth Anne is expecting at the time of recording, so I’d love to hear a fun pregnancy or labor tip for her. Alice: What baby is this? Beth Anne: This will be my first birth. We have one son, Holden, and we adopted him. This is my first pregnancy and will be my first birth. Alice: Oh, exciting! Victoria, I can only give one!? Okay. If I could tell all pregnant women one thing, it would be to move around in labor - it’s so much better. A lot of people think (and pictures often show) women in labor should be in hospital beds. And certainly there’s a time for that, and if you’re doing an epidural, of course, you need to be in bed. But before your epidural, or if you’re not having one, move around! A lot of women don’t know they can. And a lot of nurses don’t know to tell their patients that they can! Beth Anne: And here’s my “plan” for now: To stay home as long as I can. Move around a ton at home. Try everything possible. Then when I can’t stand it anymore we’ll go to the hospital and I want an epidural right away. Alice: Yeah! That’s a really good plan. Laboring at home is wonderful. Victoria: You can even move with an epidural using a peanut ball, rotating hips. And sometimes you can move a lot with an epidural depending on how strong it is. Even when you get there, keep gravity working in your favor. Beth Anne: Yes! That’s true. I’m already so impatient. I have 4-6 weeks before he’ll be here, but I’m so ready now. Alice: It is so hard! Those last few days are hard and can be long. I love that you said 4-6 weeks. You’ve got the range. Beth Anne: I’m trying to be realistic. Alice: Best of luck! That’s very exciting. Beth Anne: Thank you! Thanks for talking with us. I love your business model and all the ways you’re using your skills and talents and passions. Connect with Alice Site: 100percentdoula.com Now it’s your turn to head out there and Be Brilliant!

I live 11 miles from Ben Quayle's campaign HQ. Apparently someone called the police on us when we were shooting this. A cop parked and stared at us for the last 10 minutes or so of shooting, then followed our car for a few miles after we left.Ben Quayle and Barack Obama actually do talk exactly like this.Kevin: Hi, I'm Kevin R. Breen from FAILocracy.com.Victoria: And I'm Victoria Andrews.Kevin: We're here today in front of Ben Quayle's campaign headquarters, about to do an interview with not only Ben, who is running for election in Arizona's 3rd congressional district, but also his father, former Vice President Dan Quayle.Victoria: Now they were supposed to meet us here, but I don't seem to see them anywhere...Kevin: Yeah, that is weird. Tell you what, we'll split up. You stay here in case they come by while I go look for them.Victoria: All right, sounds good.KEVIN WALKS OFF SCREENVictoria: Oh, there they are!CAMERA PANS OVER JUST SLIGHTLY, REVEALING KEVIN'S HAND IN A SOCK PUPPETVictoria: Mr. Quayle, Mr. Quayle, so glad you could make it.Ben: So glad to be here!Victoria: Now first, Ben, now that you've been caught writing explicit material and lying about it on dirtyscottsdale.com You said "my moral compass is so broken I can barely find the parking lot." A lot of people are saying that you don't really believe in the conservative Republican platform on which you're running, and that you're just a puppet for your dad. What do you say to that?Ben: Well, frankly, I think that's ridiculous!Victoria: Could we pan the camera over to get Dan in the shot with Ben?Dan (from offscreen) No! Pretend I'm not here.Ben: Sorry, my dad can't be in the shot because he run my teleprompter. Quit going off script Ben. No, don't say that part. Or this part. That's it, no ice cream. But dad! (Continues rambling)Victoria: Ben. Ben!Ben: Oh yeah, sorry. Anyways, as I was saying, my dad really has nothing to do with this campaign. I have a lot of respect for my dad, but my platform is mine alone. We aren't the same, but we complement each other. It's like he's the meat and I'm the potataueeDan: That's potato!Ben: Well then why did you put the E at the en--Dan: Shhh!Victoria: Well, your campaign commercial has a lot of people talking because you say that "Barack Obama is the worst president in history," even implying that you're going to go to Washington to "knock the hell out of it." PLAY COMMERCIAL Now first, I have got to say that your voice sounds much more masculine in person!Ben: Yeah, I was tearing up in that video because I was chopping an onion before filming.Victoria: Seriously? Your excuse is that you were chopping an onion?Ben: Yeah, I was making a potatauee salad. Just a minute.BEN POPS OFF SCREEN AND WHISPERS ARE HEARD, THEN HE COMES BACKBen: My dad can't believe you're making that joke.Victoria: Okay, so you say you're going to go against Obama and "knock the hell" out of Washington. What's you're strategy?Ben: Oh, yeah, well, Obama must be stopped, so first I need to have a chat with him. We're going to get together a team of elite Republicans like Arnold Schwarzenegger, then we're going to go in to the West Wing to overthrow the Obama, who is practically a dictator. Now, along the way, we'll probably discover a plot far-more sinister than we were led to believe when we were first hired, and innocent lives will be in the balance-Victoria: Okay, okay. Did you come up with this strategy while watching The Expendables?Ben: uhh... no! No! That's ridiculous. What, are you suggesting that a legitimate political candidate would take tactical strategy from a Sylvestor Stallone movie? Come on, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!CUT TO REAGAN QUOTE: "Boy, I saw RAMBO last night. I know what to do the next time this happens."Former US President Ronald Reagan -following the release of 39 American hostages by Lebanese terrorists in 1985Ben: Oh. Huh. Well, this is awkward.Victoria: Well, once you get close enough to knock the hell out of Obama, what will you do?Ben: Oh, easy. I'm going to look him in the eyes, and I'm going to be like, "Go ahead punk! You make my day."Victoria: It still sounds like you're getting your strategy from movies.Ben: Let me finish. I'll get all up in his grill! I'll be like, you are screwing up America! You are ruining our freaking country, and I'm going to beat the crap out of you cuz I'm freakin Ben Quayle, bitch!Victoria: Well you're in luck! You don't have to wait!Ben: What?A BLACK SOCK PUPPET WALKS ON SCREENObama: Hey Victoria, hey Ben. Whatcha talking about?Ben: Oh, uhh...Victoria: You're just in time, Obama, Ben is about to set you straight! You aren't even going to know what hit you!Ben: Oh, well, Victoria, I, uhh...Victoria: Go ahead, give it to him, Ben.Obama: Uhh... what's going on?