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Property management business owner, do you have an assistant? We've talked before about how important it is to build a team around you and get support as an entrepreneur. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull discuss why property management entrepreneurs need to hire an assistant for themselves. You'll Learn [01:14] The Most Important Hire in Your PM Business [02:41] How to Get a Really Good Assistant [04:57] Two Types of Team Members [06:42] When Should I Get an Assistant? [08:17] Benefits of Having an Assistant Tweetables “I think the very first person that somebody should hire. is an assistant.” “If you continue to build the team around the business, you will end up more and more miserable instead of helping yourself more and more, which actually makes you a lot more money.” “Nobody's good at being two or three different types of people.” “I've seen business owners have team members that they've gotten assistants for and they don't have an assistant for themselves.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: I've seen business owners have team members that they've gotten assistants for and they don't have an assistant for themselves. [00:00:07] That always just drives me crazy because it's so obvious that there's a problem there.  [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers, love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. [00:00:40] Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull. And let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:13] So today we're going to be talking about assistants, right? [00:01:16] Sarah: Yes. Why don't you have help yet? Okay.  [00:01:20] Jason: So one of the challenges that we've noticed with our clients and with other property managers is that a lot of times they don't have an assistant for themselves. And so they'll have some team members even, but they won't have an assistant that supports them. [00:01:36] And I think this is a common trap entrepreneurs fall into. I think the very first person that somebody should hire. is an assistant. You start getting yourself some help instead of just helping the business. And if you continue to build the team around the business, you will end up more and more miserable instead of helping yourself more and more, which actually makes you a lot more money. [00:01:58] That's like everything in a nutshell.  [00:02:00] Sarah: There you go. We're done. There we go. We can wrap up. Have a great day. So get an assistant.  [00:02:03] Jason: Goodbye. Alright.  [00:02:04] Sarah: Madi will edit this one and she'll be like, "oh wow, that was so fast."  [00:02:07] Jason: "Wow, that was the shortest one ever." Kidding! So let's talk about this. I have an assistant. [00:02:12] Giselle's sort of your assistant. I think. Somewhat. Operationally? No, you don't think so? Okay. All right.  [00:02:18] Sarah: She's really good at really anything because she asks people on the team and she's like, "Hey, is there anything you need help with this week?" She always usually messages me at the beginning of the week and she says, "Hey, is there like anything I should be aware of or any special projects that you need me to work on this week?" [00:02:34] And sometimes I can't think of anything until later. And then I go, "Oh, you can help me with this." And she's like, "great. I'm on it." [00:02:41] Jason: So how do we get people really good assistants? Well, we have them do one of our DoorGrow time studies to figure out which things are energetically their plus signs and which things are their minus signs. [00:02:51] And then we build out a job description, but it needs to be one personality type, not two or three different personalities that like that human being doesn't really exist.  [00:03:01] Sarah: And if they do, they're hard.  [00:03:03] Jason: There's people that can do everything.  [00:03:04] Sarah: They have like multiple personalities in one.  [00:03:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:08] Sarah: Let's think about it if we want to hire them. [00:03:09] Jason: No, we don't. We don't want that person. We want somebody that's good. At being one person, right? Like in, because nobody's good at being two or three different types of people. Right. You're not going to have somebody that's like, "man, I'm the salesiest person ever and super salesy. And Oh yeah, I'm a really brilliant detail oriented operator." [00:03:27] Like it's just, for example, so we need to get you your ultimate assistant. We also then like to figure out your personality, figure out who you are. So when we get into our DoorGrow hiring, and if you need help with hiring, reach out to DoorGrow, we have a really great hiring system called DoorGrow hiring, and it's going to cost you a lot less money than working with a placement agency where they charge thousands of dollars and you'll probably get better results. [00:03:48] Not probably. You'll get better results typically because their job is just to get somebody into your office and get paid. But we assess people, we make sure they're the right personality fit. We help you make sure you have the right culture fit and the right skill fit, which I've talked about many times, the three fits. [00:04:06] So, I've had lots of assistants over the years. Lots. I've had some really amazing ones. I've had some okay ones. I haven't really had, well, I guess I've had a few like bad ones as well, right? So I've had lots and lots of assistants. And what I usually look for in hiring an assistant is I need somebody that I can trust their judgment and their intelligence to do things so that I don't have to do it. Right. And so my assistant Mar, she's better at several things than I would be. She has more patience. She's willing to like get frustrated at people if need be to like get things handled, whatever it takes.  [00:04:46] I think it's really important. A lot of people think, "well, I'll go get a VA and I'll go get some low dollar, low wage, cheap sort of worker in Mexico or the Philippines, and that'll be my first assistant." [00:04:57] So there's two types of people you're going to hire in your business. Some are people as process. People as process are basically like people you hired that function like a robot. Just do what I tell you to do. Don't get cute. Don't be clever. Just follow the checklist. [00:05:10] That's not a great assistant. It's not really a good assistant to have because you're going to have to do all the thinking for them and then give them tasks and you, then you're gonna have to show them exactly how to do every task and that's going to be really frustrating for you. That's not the ideal assistant. [00:05:25] So then there are people that are thinkers or decision makers that you can trust to make decisions without you and to make judgments. And so that's the type of assistant that you want. You want somebody that is intelligent. Intelligence is the big differentiator here. And you can tell when you're talking with people, are they bright? [00:05:46] Are they quick? Would you trust them to do things over you on the things that you're going to give them to do because they're better at those things? So you want to hire people that are intelligent, not people that just can follow tasks That's not going to be a really good assistant for you. Now later on if you do have some low level work or tasks in the business that you just want to offload, you can hire some people as process we have people on our team that are people as process. [00:06:11] They follow things. They do the same sort of work each time. They're not really involved in making a lot of decisions in the business. They don't come to our weekly meetings. They don't come to our monthly meeting, planning meetings, stuff like this. They're just doing their work and they're valuable and we appreciate them. [00:06:28] However, if you need somebody close to you, that's going to help you double your capacity and help you get accomplished a lot more, they need to be next level. They need to be higher level from that. So anything you would add to that?  [00:06:41] Sarah: I would say, let's talk about: when should I get an assistant? [00:06:46] Jason: Okay. When do you think they should get an assistant.  [00:06:48] Sarah: Like now? Now. Usually somewhere and it's different depending on your capacity, typically, it's somewhere in between the 50 and 100 door mark. It may be a little bit sooner depending on your market and is this your full time thing? Are you trying to run eight different businesses at once? [00:07:07] Like, what is your focus like? Really how much time are you spending in the business and willing to spend in the business? All of that will be factors in when this happens, but typically it's somewhere between the 50 and 100 doormark, which is why if you're in the DoorGrow mastermind, then the belt level requirements in order to reach the orange belt, which is your hundred doormark, you need to hire an assistant. It's one of the things on there and most people skip this step and they'll hire other positions in the business. They just don't hire an assistant. And I ran my business, that was the only person I had was an assistant and she was boots on the ground. And then that way, all of the stuff I didn't want to do, I didn't have to do because I had somebody else who could just take it off my plate and do it for me. So it was great. Without her, man, I don't know how I would have been able to do it. I would have had to work probably double or more. And I would have had multiple other positions in the company going at the same time. It just would have been really hard to do everything, especially the way that I did it without somebody there boots on the ground. [00:08:17] Jason: Yeah. So for me having an assistant has like been hugely beneficial so that I can free up my time like it's completely gotten me out of email. I don't look at my email. Do you email me? I probably won't see it, but I'll be told about it.  [00:08:33] Sarah: We closed on a property and he didn't see any of the stuff. Yeah, we were at the closing table and he's like, "hey, I got questions on this." [00:08:40] I'm like, yeah, that's all in your email. He's like, "oh, I don't look at my email." [00:08:43] Jason: Yeah. So, yeah, I don't like dealing with email, right? It's not like my favorite thing in the world. So I was able to offload email. I don't have to like worry too much about my schedule. I just show up and live and do what my calendar tells me to do. [00:08:57] So, having an assistant has just made things a lot easier so I can focus on higher level tasks and working on the stuff that I more enjoy doing and my assistant enjoys doing all those things. Those are things that drain me and my assistant loves it Like she messaged me last night saying how much she loves her job and how much she loves doing all this stuff for me And i'm like, "that's great because I would hate doing it." I just don't want to do a lot of those things that she does. So when to get an assistant? I think most property managers, yeah, certainly once you get up to 50, 60 doors, you're probably feeling a little bit overwhelmed as in that solopreneur sand trap, that's a great spot to get your first team member. They could be a part time assistant, but get somebody that can take some load off your plate. [00:09:40] Maybe you can graduate them the full time as you add more doors, but it's going to double your capacity. Getting a really good assistant can double your capacity overnight, especially if they're taking off your minus signs because you'll have so much more energy, so much more mental capacity, so much less decision fatigue. [00:09:57] You'll be able to get more juice out of the second half of your day if you can get those things offloaded. And so we've got some great resources for how to leverage an assistant that we can support you in at DoorGrow and how to know what an assistant should be doing, which is unique to you. And yeah, and how to make that relationship really effective. [00:10:17] So, so reach out to us and check us out at DoorGrow.Com if you're curious about any of that, and if you don't yet have an assistant, what I think's really wild to me is I've seen business owners that have hundreds of doors, hundreds. And they have an entire team and they're stressed out and they're frustrated. [00:10:34] And this happens a lot, especially in the two to 400 door range, they'll just be burnt out and they wonder why they can't get to the next level. They keep stopping their growth and adding doors and then focusing on trying to get their systems and processes dialed in and they don't have an assistant and they wonder why things are so stressful for them. [00:10:51] And it's cause they're not taking care of themselves. They're not taking care of the most important person in the business. The one person that should have the most support, they're not allowing that person to get support, and it's you, the business owner, like make sure you have an assistant. I've seen business owners have team members that they've gotten assistants for and they don't have an assistant for themselves. [00:11:12] That always just drives me crazy because it's so obvious that there's a problem there. And when I'm talking with them, they're like burnout, they're frustrated, they're hating their business, and, "oh yeah, my operator has an assistant or this person has an assistant or my property manager has an assistant property manager, but the business owner has no direct support." [00:11:32] I'm like, "'well, everybody in my team supports me,' but you didn't build the team around you. You built the team around the business." And so they're just burning themselves out. So this is your invitation. If you're listening and you don't have an assistant right now, and you have any other team members, this is your invitation, or maybe you don't have any team members yet. This is your invitation to go get yourself an assistant. I'm giving you permission that you can go get yourself an assistant. Not that you need it, but you deserve it. Like go get yourself an assistant. You can definitely afford it because if you were able to take half of your time off your plate of the crappy stuff you don't want to be doing, you could easily make a lot more money. [00:12:11] You can spend a lot more time doing revenue generating activities and growing the business. It's almost never an excuse that you financially can't afford an assistant. Because it just means you just have to spend the time doing the stuff that makes money, and you know how to make money and if you don't for some reason know how to add doors or know how to close more deals or know how to make money, we can help you do that dramatically and very quickly reach out to us at DoorGrow. So anything else we should say?  [00:12:37] Sarah: I don't think so  [00:12:38] Jason: Okay, so what's the core message?  [00:12:41] Sarah: Go get an assistant. Do it.  [00:12:43] Jason: All right. Do it now. That's it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth Bye everyone. Oh and get your tickets to DoorGrow live. [00:12:51] This is gonna be an awesome event So go get those you can go to DoorGrowlive. Com. Be there. It's going to be be cool [00:12:56] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:13:23] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you are a property management entrepreneur, you have likely been your own salesperson or BDM at some point. Eventually, every property management business owner will need to hire a salesperson and develop different growth engines. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their BDM Bootcamp event You'll Learn [01:52] What is a BDM? [03:00] Get your BDM Ready for BDM Bootcamp [08:42] You Need a Sales Pipeline! [14:26] Benefits of In-Person Events Tweetables “It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine, and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline.” “Your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one.” “If you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, you're just guessing, and you're just hoping.” “You need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages.  [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:36] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, Jason and Sarah Hull. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show. All right. So today we're going to be talking about BDMs.  [00:01:24] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:01:26] Jason: In honor of this event that we have coming up, which is. Going to be super cool. I don't know that there's been anything like this. That's been as cool as this that's existed in the property management space, maybe ever. [00:01:39] There's a lot of people that talk about BDMs, but there's very few that are actually getting BDMs to get great results. And we're going to be hosting a BDM bootcamp. And so Before we go any further, every time I start talking about BDMs, as if everybody knows what it is. I just talked to a guy with, I think, 800 doors the other day. [00:02:00] He's like, "what's a BDM?" I was like, man, okay, I need to make sure I explained this. BDMs are business development managers. Sometimes they're called BDs, business developers and they're salespeople for property management. That's what people will call them, right? Business development can happen in any industry. [00:02:18] But the reason we use the phrase BDM in property management is because property management is closely connected to real estate. And whenever you mentioned sales, people get it confused with real estate brokerage sales type of stuff. And that's why. Now everybody knows what a BDM is, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. [00:02:37] Sarah: Okay.  [00:02:38] Jason: So anyone listening to the show, you better know what a BDM is from now on. That's it.  [00:02:43] Sarah: There's a quiz at the end.  [00:02:44] Jason: What is a BDM? Did you get it right? If not, go back and start this episode over.  [00:02:49] Sarah: Try again.  [00:02:51] Jason: Okay. All right. What do we talk...? Do you want to like tell them about the event? [00:02:56] What do we want to talk about?  [00:02:58] Sarah: Yes. Tell them about the event. So we are launching a BDM bootcamp. So there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs. And there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs and then spending a bunch of money to run ads and get leads and pay for leads and then have the BDM work the leads. [00:03:21] And then if you just want the BDM to close more deals, it's simple. All you have to do is spend more money and buy more leads. Which is really expensive and wildly ineffective. So we have strategies that BDMs use...  [00:03:35] Jason: that actually work  [00:03:37] Sarah: ...that are free, or at least very inexpensive. [00:03:40] You might have to pay for lunch. That's okay. You get something out of it too. And we've decided that we're going to launch a BDM, aka salesperson, boot camp. It's going to be a one day training. And we've never done anything like this before. For those of you that are current clients, there's some trainings on DoorGrow Academy. [00:04:01] We run every wednesday, our growth accelerator calls, but it's hard to amass all of this information that Jason and I have learned about sales over the last, what, 20 something years and put it in a course. Or talk about it on a one hour call. It's darn near impossible, right? So what we wanted to do is we wanted to take some of this information and spend one day going over all of it. [00:04:31] Now, this is very likely going to end up being a series because we can probably talk about sales and strategies and tactics and how to improve your scripts and what to say and like NLP language and filler words and all this good stuff, we can go over this for probably days on end. So what we're doing is this is very likely going to end up being a series, but we're going to launch the first one in April, so for those of you that are watching live, you all have a chance to get in on that for those of you that are watching this recording is will probably be released after the event, but don't fret because  [00:05:11] Jason: you may have missed it.  [00:05:12] Sarah: You might have missed it. Oh, man.  [00:05:15] Jason: Maybe you should get in our Facebook group and pay attention to the live streams. [00:05:19] So you don't miss stuff.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Sometimes we do some cool things that you need to know about right now.  [00:05:23] Jason: The Facebook group, go to doorgrowclub.Com apply. We reject 70 percent of the applicants, which is why the group is good.  [00:05:31] Sarah: Okay.  [00:05:32] Jason: Okay.  [00:05:32] Sarah: Anyway. So that was our shameless plug. All right. No, right. Go ahead. [00:05:36] If you've missed it. Yeah, we don't have a word from ourselves yet. That's a great idea. Who wants to sponsor this podcast? We'll plug you on every episode. Talk to me, baby. So anyway, if you've missed it. Sad for you, but don't fret because there's going to be more of these. This won't be a once and done thing. [00:05:55] So for those of you that are listening now and or hear the information before the event, then this is going to be for you. So here's the information. It will be Thursday, April 11th. So this is also open to anyone on your team who handles sales, meaning it might be you, it might be somebody else. You may have multiple people on the team who handle sales. So if you would like Jason and myself to train your salespeople for a day. This is a really great opportunity for you because that's exactly what we're doing. [00:06:33] So do you want to tell them a little bit about what we're talking about? Or do you want me to do that?  [00:06:38] Jason: I'll go ahead. So we've seen a lot of problems with businesses growing. And so if you, have a BDM or if you are the BDM, you're the business owner, you're the one that closes deals and you are not adding at least a hundred orders a year, hopefully through organic methods instead of wasting a bunch of money on advertising to get cold crappy leads, we're going to give you the strategies, we're going to focus on some different growth engines talking about those. We're going to get into specific pipeline stages because what I often identify is that it's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline, or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages. And not making progress and so we're going to help you identify where the leaks are if you've started building some of these growth engines, you may have started doing things like trying to do realtor referrals and it's not working very well. [00:07:39] You're not getting easily 10 doors a month from that. You might maybe you've heard of our neighbor strategy and you're not getting referrals from that. Maybe you've heard of some other of our strategies, it's not working. And if you haven't heard of these, then you might want to show up, but we're going to talk about the different stages. [00:07:55] We're going to talk about what maybe is affecting things at different stages. This will be very tailored to those that are in attendance. We want to help you move your business forward significantly. And sometimes there's very simple tweaks that could be done at each of these stages that opens the floodgates. [00:08:10] So you have a lot more flow through the pipeline, which means more deals and more money.  [00:08:15] Sarah: Yeah. So back up because you skipped to topic number two, which is cool. We can do two and then one and then three and then four, but that's fine.  [00:08:21] Jason: They're not numbered.  [00:08:22] Sarah: They're not, but they are in order on the document. [00:08:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:25] Sarah: Yeah. [00:08:25] Jason: So Sarah's an operator and everything has to be done a certain way. There is a right way for operators.  [00:08:32] Sarah: There's a right way to do literally every task on the planet.  [00:08:34] Jason: I'm talking to the business owners and they care most about what is interesting or different, but...  [00:08:42] Sarah: yes, and I understand, but your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one. [00:08:50] Jason: That's true.  [00:08:51] Sarah: Or you don't know the stages of a pipeline because a lot of times, and I bet this happens to you too, but it happens to me when I ask people, okay, "what does your sales process look like?" [00:09:00] " Oh, I talked to somebody." "Okay, great. And then what?" "Oh, and then I send them some information." "Great. And then what?" [00:09:05] Jason: "I wait." [00:09:06] Sarah: "Oh, then I wait." "Oh, okay. Like, do you call them again or do you check in or do you like set up another call?"  [00:09:13] Jason: "Or I follow up in a way that I look needy and creepy?"  [00:09:16] Sarah: Sometimes the answer is yes. And then sometimes the answer is no, but even if they do follow up or have another call or check in again, somehow, then my next question again is "okay, and then what?" And then they go, "oh, and then I just wait." So essentially what happens is you have no pipeline. Okay. And you don't know that you don't have a pipeline, but you don't have a pipeline. [00:09:35] And that means if you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, we're just guessing, and we're just hoping. We're going, "I don't know. I keep talking to all these people, but nothing seems to be closing. And I don't understand why," because you don't have pipeline stages. [00:09:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:09:49] Sarah: So you got to need a pipeline.  [00:09:51] Jason: So we'll teach you how to build out the pipeline. We'll talk about the different stages that need to exist. And then it'll be a lot more clear and we'll talk with you about how to build that out in your CRM of choice. So you'll understand the principles. [00:10:04] You can go apply this to whatever CRM you use, whether it's DoorGrow CRM or lead simple or whatever else is out there. Okay, I'll go to number three now that we're back in order. Okay. All right. Number three, [00:10:19] Uncovering your client's pain points. So superficially people think they know the pain of their target audience. So they want their property manager. They don't want to have to deal with managing the rental property. That is not the real pain that gets you to close deals that you have to go a lot deeper than that. [00:10:36] And so we're going to talk about how to disarm people, how to not come across as super salesy, how to create authentic communication and an authentic relationship where they believe that you can help them and how to get them to open up about what the real pain is, the real stress of the real emotion that might be motivating them to have a conversation with you. [00:11:00] And one of the biggest problems we see in sales is that a lot of people don't take time to identify what the real pain is. The pain often has not really anything to do with the rental property. It's something going on in their personal life. And so you need to figure out how to connect to that. [00:11:16] And for some that's like, "Whoa," that's like, "I don't know how to do that. That'd be weird or awkward," but you need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management, right? Just like if you're booking a trip to Hawaii. [00:11:34] Property management is the flight to Hawaii. It's not the paradise. It's not the outcome that they're hoping for. It is property management. So we want to sell the trip. We want to sell Hawaii, not the flight there, right? Which is property management. So we'll talk about also getting towards the, not just the pain, but the pleasure. [00:11:54] Those are the 2 ingredients you really need to know and uncover in order to close the deal. And so if you're not closing deals, it's probably because somebody else is better at that than you. You're one of your competitors, or they're just going to go with the cheapest company because you haven't really created a connection. [00:12:11] And so they think you're a commodity. You do everything everyone else does. And so that we'll get into that. All right. So good?  [00:12:18] Sarah: That was good.  [00:12:19] Jason: Number four, reviewing and improving your call scripts to book more appointments and close more deals. So we want to like, take a look at what are you saying? And you may think, "I don't have scripts. [00:12:30] I'm just awesome. I just wing it every time." I guarantee 90 percent of the time, you're saying similar things, dealing with objections in similar ways. And so you have a script. It just probably isn't a very clearly defined one, which means it's probably not a very good one because you haven't taken an objective look at it to optimize or improve it. [00:12:50] And so we're going to take a look at some scripts that are effective and figure out ways to improve your scripts. And sometimes it's not even about what you're saying. It's about how you say it. And so we're going to focus on some of the magic that comes with how you communicate with people. I've got clients that are not salespeople, like no real training in sales, terrible at sales. And they're crushing it because they know how to be authentic. They are communicating in a way that's disarming and they're just being helpful. And so we're going to talk about some of that stuff. How to close more deals. Some of you that are so good at sales, you're super salesy, you like cut your teeth as a baby in real estate and like you're a shark, like we're going to help you figure out how to undo a lot of that mess so that you can create more trust and sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. [00:13:44] And so we're going to help you close more business, which will make things a lot better. Okay.  [00:13:50] Sarah: That's what we've got. All right. That's our agenda. And if this sounds interesting to you, now, our hope is that once you come to this event, you'll obviously get a lot out of it and learn a lot about sales that we just typically can't cover on a one hour call. [00:14:07] It's just, it's too much. I can talk about 1 of those things for more than an hour. Right? Once you come to this event, you'll learn a lot and you'll be able to immediately implement these things so that very quickly, you will start seeing some changes and some positive results and momentum.  [00:14:24] Jason: So why do this in person? [00:14:26] So let me talk about that. One of the things we've noticed in DoorGrow's, I'm starting to call it the real bubble. And so there's this mentality, I think, unconsciously in our brain. So when we're doing stuff on zoom calls and zoom meetings, which we do a lot of cool stuff that way DoorGrow, but we've noticed that when we get people in person for the first time they meet Sarah and I and realize we're real human beings. [00:14:48] We're not just something on video and that we're real and they can like hug us. And like we touch right? Like then something shifts in their brain that everything else they're saying is real. When they start to meet clients that they've seen on some of the Zoom calls, sharing their wins and talking about crushing it and adding doors. [00:15:07] They're like, "Oh, these are real people." And then the brain shifts and they start to connect that, "Hey, if they're real, and this is real and they're getting real results and they're like me, I'm a human, like I can do this too." And all of this stuff is actually true, impossible. And so we've noticed a shift in clients once they come to DoorGrow live, which is coming up in May, or they come to one of our in person events. [00:15:32] And so we want to do this in person because there's something magical about in person that content and information is absorbed. A lot more easily. There's also that sort of kinesthetic aspect that we're there physically but the learning is a bit more experiential. We'll be able to maybe even role play, go over some scripts, talk, like, say things. [00:15:52] It's just a bit more real than just seeing something on video or watching a video replay or something like that. And so come pierce the real veil with DoorGrow and realize the real magic that exists.  [00:16:03] Sarah: All right. Yes. And at this point you guys might be wondering all right, so this sounds pretty good. [00:16:09] I think I might be interested. What do I do? Contact me. Don't contact anybody else on the team. They're not even going to know what you're talking about. Just contact me so you can get in touch with me. It's Sarah S-A-R-A-H. If you go to our website and you end up talking with somebody else on the team, they will point you in my direction and you can get registered that way. [00:16:29] Now, tickets for this will be 1k per person. You can have as many people on your team attend as you would like. So if you have 3 BDMs and you want to send all 3. If there's just one or two, maybe that you want to send or you want to come check it out yourself, go ahead. But you'll need to let me know now spots are going to be limited. I don't even have 20 spots. I actually need to go back and confirm how many I have left because I know we had some people interested. But the price for this will be 1k per person. And I know that the price will not stay. At that rate. [00:17:03] So we're launching it and we're doing something special with the price. So for now, take us our one case. So get in while the cost is low.  [00:17:12] Jason: There you go. All right. You will easily offset the cost of doing this. For most of you, that's like getting one more deal, right? So lifetime value for most of your clients, probably a lot higher, like maybe 10 times. [00:17:27] Maybe 20 times higher if you can keep them a while, right? So this is a no brainer. This is very easy and we can get your BDM adding a lot more doors. So just like some client results, we've got clients that are easily some BDM are adding 200- 300 doors a year organically without paying for any SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services like APM and they're able to grow and scale their business quickly through organic methods. [00:17:56] Sarah: And we have some clients that turn business away every single month because they just cannot.  [00:18:02] Jason: Get pickier and pickier.  [00:18:03] Sarah: Yeah, they're backlogged. And then they ask us on the calls what do I do? Like, "I don't want to say no, but then I can't take on this many." And we're like, "now you have a waiting list and you can take on X money per month." [00:18:14] And if they can't come on this month or they missed that deadline, then roll them over to the next month. If they qualify.  [00:18:20] Jason: Okay. All right. So that is BDM bootcamp. So check out BDM bootcamp, reach out to sarah@doorgrow.Com. Sarah with an H.  [00:18:28] Sarah: Yeah, if you spell my name wrong, I'm not talking to you cause I won't get it. [00:18:32] Jason: Okay. That's your punishment.  [00:18:34] Wow. Okay.  [00:18:35] Sarah: So don't forget my H because everyone does.  [00:18:38] Jason: Just email me. I'm nicer.  [00:18:40] Sarah: He never checks his email. Don't email him. That's true.  [00:18:42] Jason: My assistant does. Don't do it. All right.  [00:18:44] Sarah: You'll never hear back the black hole.  [00:18:46] Jason: No, my assistant's good. She'll take care of it. I just won't see it. [00:18:51] She'll tell me about it if it's important. All right. For those of you that are wanting to join a community, be part of something awesome, reach out to us. And so you can learn more about DoorGrow Mastermind. You get access to some of the coolest stuff and to be part of the coolest community of the most growth minded property management business owners in the industry. [00:19:11] And we can help you get your business to the next level. So whether it's scaling operations, whether it's figuring out how to grow, whether it's cleaning up the front end of your business, getting your website and your pricing, right, all this kind of stuff. So we can help you. All right. Check us out at doorgrow. com until next time to our mutual growth, everybody. Bye for now. [00:19:33] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:19:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

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Are you aware of how much money you would need to protect and potentially replace all of the assets in the properties you manage? Join Jason as he chats with Aaron Lombardo from North Star Reserves about what a reserve study is, and how having one completed can benefit your property management business. You'll Learn... [01:21] Who is Aaron from North Star Reserves? [05:09] What is a Reserve Study? [16:30] What is the Difference Between a Reserve Study and an Inspection? [20:14] A New Concept: the “LIL Effect” [33:50] How to Stop Your Clients from Micromanaging You Tweetables “Property's easy to manage. People are tough to manage.” “Retaining a client, you're continually selling them on why they should be with you. It involves trust.” “One thing that property managers incur too much is blame.” “Each property is a business and it needs to be able to be maintained.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Aaron: what the reserve study really does is creates kind of an internal bank of their own funds and we help them manage a threshold so they can have a zero base threshold where they're just managing just enough in contributions to maintain those assets over long term or they can increase that threshold so that there's a nest egg if you will, a buffer or padding [00:00:21] Jason Hull: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the # DoorGrowShow. So if you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not bebecause you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. [00:01:21] Aaron: I went in and got my undergrad, my bachelor's in psychology. So I majored in family and marriage therapy and kind of the end of that I realized I didn't want to be in psych. I love it. I love people, but I migrated very quickly into the construction industry. And I worked for the third largest builder in the country and managed multimillion dollar budgets as far as from the building side and construction. Was recruited by the largest builder in the state of Utah and spent quite a bit of time with them working through kind of their ranks, managing, again, oversight on millions of dollars in purchasing materials, actually building the structures from the ground up. That experience led me into the general manager position with them on their custom home division quietly running this custom home division. They were really a track builder and they had all sorts of, different styles, designs and levels of building from commercial to residential, and they had this quiet custom home division that was really exciting. It allowed me to really apply my psych trade into sales, dealing really with high-end buyers and executors buying properties and interacting with those properties as investments and so forth. [00:02:33] And ultimately that kind of landed quite a bit of interaction with building the actual communities themselves, HOAs, working with those HOAs. And then I had an opportunity to really jump ship and partner with a friend of mine in rental management. The short version is that he had a deal to buy a pump company fell out from underneath him after he'd literally moved across the country. And he kind of started by default just managing a rental property, a family's rental property. Anyway, long story short is he needed somebody to come along and help out with that, both on the HOA management and just generally the business. So, We ran this business, we expanded it over two states, Idaho and Utah. In the end, we separated. He took the rental management, I took HOA management. We both have grown those. I really enjoyed the HOA management side of it. It provided a lot of opportunities to interact with property managers as their competitors, but also with the boards. And so it was really by forced majeure that I had to take a deep dive into kind of the rental management, interacting again with real estate, which is where maybe my education wasn't, but my passion certainly was. And then I had an opportunity to buy this little mom and pop reserve study company out of Emmett, Idaho, and this was just a retiring couple that I had actually used their services several times in the rental and hoa management industry. And I just loved the idea of getting back into the budgets, but it afforded me the opportunity as well to get into the field doing site inspections for these properties while managing these budgets. [00:04:08] And so I did, we sold the HOA management company. We bought this little mom and pop. We've grown it to eight states, and then we consult in several others. We're in multiple markets within, kind of these states and subsets of these states, destination stops and so forth. And I'll tell you what a reserve study is here in just a second, which is why I'm here with you, I suppose, Jason, but we do, reserve studies and site inspections for golf courses and country clubs high rises. We do commercial properties and strip malls. We do a lot of homeowners associations that have clubhouses and buildings that they have to maintain in streets. We've done some really cool townships where we've done entire, small cities or small towns, airports And and then water treatment facilities. So we, we feel like we've got a real, broad gamut of these things. These properties of different sorts. Some are owned, by a governing body like an hoa, and some are owned by real estate investors or owners that are looking to track their costs. And that's where the reserve study comes in itself. [00:05:09] Jason: Got it. Cool. So tell us what is a reserve study? [00:05:14] Aaron: Right. The magic question. So a reserve study is really just a 30 year outlay of all income and expenses and using that contribution is what we call it, a contribution of that revenue to reserves or savings to maintain and repair all their physical assets over the course of 30 years. So it takes in a lot of aspects of that, right? You have the revenue that comes in and we call that the contribution. And it's just a piece of maybe the property's total revenue and then that contribution will fund the future maturation of all of those assets from the replacement of the roof to the maintenance of the plaster in the pool ceiling on the streets, et cetera, et cetera. And so it really takes, the full gamut. It includes inflation and the cost of inflation that compounds over time. It includes the useful life is what we call it in the industry for each individual item, right? Not everything wears the same and not everything wears the same in different. Locations. Our California clients have properties, in Spokane and in Spokane. It's just a harsher climate. And so their properties weather different, and if they don't take that into account and really understand the nuances of that it catches them off guard because of the weathering that occurs in a different, in different places. [00:06:29] Jason: Right. Just like cars in winter areas with the salted roads, the undercarriage gets rusted out. California no issue with that. So, That's right. At least not in SoCal. All right. So, cool. All right, I get that. So how do you go about doing these reserve studies and how does this relate to property management? I really haven't heard of any property managers doing this. I'm sure some do or should be. So tell us about that. [00:06:58] Aaron: Well, so the truth of it is there's not a lot of well, let me rephrase that, a lot of property managers do that if they're, if they have oversight in an HOA or some sort of governing body. We break our service down into two pieces. There's the actual physical creation of the reserve study, and then there's the consulting on how to use the reserve study, our other kind of group of clients, aside from just HOA property managers. Are, owners and business owners. So, typically when we're working with a property manager on a rental property or a multi-unit property, it's usually the owner or, sometimes it's the CFO or CEO that's looking at this property from a strictly, revenue generation standpoint. And they're looking at their total expense load and we build that expense load. So it comes in two parts. The first part is really just the physical creation of the reserve study that involves a site inspection. So we perform a physical site inspection where we comb through every piece of this property. Let's use a high-rise as an example. A high-rise might have everything from a generator tucked into the parking garage to, common area, boiler units that are serving all of the rental units above, and the roof and the windows, and all of the pieces. [00:08:07] In a typical high-rise, there might be 80 to a hundred components. That all have a varying degree of cost. Some of them need to be touched or maintained on an annual basis, and some of them you don't need to really worry about but every 30 or 40 years and those, long-term items usually have a significant cost that we're trying to help our owners avoid loans on. [00:08:29] Right. They can essentially, Jason, what the reserve study really does is creates kind of an internal bank of their own funds and we help them manage a threshold so they can have a zero base threshold where they're just managing just enough in contributions to maintain those assets over long term or they can increase that threshold so that there's a nest egg, if you will, a buffer or padding that allows, far more flexibility on how to use those funds for the improvement of those physical assets. [00:09:02] So the first part of that is just performing the site inspection, converting those physical assets into usable data, right? So we'll document every aspect of, the pool as an example, right down to the pool pumps. Pool pumps and pool plaster and the pool deck and the pool cover. I mean, there's a dozen components that maintain what we would, you and I would just call a pool, right? Yeah, there's a dozen components that would maintain that. We break those down, they all get a useful life. We convert that into data that has a useful life, a term for its expiration, and then a cost associated with that. In the process of that, we're contacting vendors, usually local vendors to that state or maybe that destination stop that town and city. So that we're finding out the local pricing and we plug that in commensurate to, their actual costs. And then we produce what we call a reserve study. [00:09:55] And it's a lengthy report. It'd be a hundred page report. Half of that is usually a very detailed page over page breakdown of every component, what we discovered, what our actual site inspection uncovered. And oftentimes we uncover problems that they don't, and sometimes that their management or their maintenance men don't see. Their maintenance men have a tendency to look at certain high visual items where we're in the process of discovering from a construction standpoint. What are the forthcoming or future problems that they might incur? A great but terrible example, and this has brought the whole industry kind of forefront. Everybody at this point has heard about the Florida condo that literally fell, and it was a horrible tragedy. You've heard of that? [00:10:38] Jason: I didn't hear that. [00:10:39] Aaron: You didn't hear about that? All right. [00:10:41] Jason: No. So when I was in Mexico and there was a hotel, or like a condo building next to one of the resorts we stayed at, and it won all these awards for design, but it like started sinking and collapsing. [00:10:52] Aaron: Oh yeah that's a different one. So, so this Florida compound really a preventable tragedy and a terrible tragedy. So this had a pool on an upper deck. So it was like a parking garage and imagined large concrete with rebar columns underneath upholding that pool and the structure above it. And over the course of probably decades, there was corrosion from the pool. Now pool chemicals are just brutal on everything that they touch right, even the concrete. And over time they noticed some corroding that had leaked into cracks and fissures in the concrete and had corroded, the rebar, which is kind of the structural integrity of the columns themselves. Long story short is they didn't have the funds or reserves, right. They didn't have the savings, just interchangeable word with reserves. They didn't have the reserves to fund repairs. And after decades of that type of corrosion, the columns gave way and the whole pool inside of the structure gave. And once the structure started to give, it was a cascading effect. And multiple stories of this condo complex fell and killed people, and it was just a horrible, preventable-- [00:12:05] Jason: wow. [00:12:06] Aaron: --Problem. Now that's about as dramatic as these circumstances get mind you. Right. Most of the time what we see is we see, gutters, for example, that are leaking off into the the wall and we know the cues and the primers that are kind of indicating that there's probably a leak behind the stucco itself. Right. Stucco's a permeable material. Yeah. But if it gets beyond the paper, behind the stucco, then you have wall issues and we see that. Pretty often where rain gutters are not skirting all of the snow, ice, and rain away from the building. So all of that's preventable If number one, there's funds to do it and if number two, there's eyes that can pick it up. So we help discover both of those. We help outline, highlight those potential problems and sometimes those problems in live. And then we help ensure that they have a plan of how and when those funds will occur in order to maintain and replace and repair all of those assets. [00:13:07] Ultimately the purpose of any property is to maintain and increase the value of that property, right? No investor wants to get in... [00:13:15] Jason: yeah. [00:13:15] Aaron: ...and not come out on the back end, however many years that might be, and not earn a profit at some level or another, either from the sale of the property or for the ongoing rental of the property. And that can only occur if you're maintaining the property in a condition that it can do so, in my opinion, in optimal condition. [00:13:33] Jason: So one of the things that comes to mind, so my wife and I like taking trips to Mexico and we've gone to some resorts in Mexico that have been around a long time, like decades. Yeah. And we didn't realize it because the rooms seemed new, the paint, but we saw maintenance people on this building. All day long, every day there were just people doing the grounds, doing painting, like everything. And it looked great. And then we just took a trip to Puerto Rico and we stayed at this modern kind of new sort of looking resort. I don't know how long it's been around, but it's already has rust coming down the white sides of the building from the top. They had some nets to capture, I don't know, maybe bird stuff or, I have no idea. Yeah. But they were torn and the room was mildewey and like, it just wasn't what it looked like in the pictures. It was just starting to show some wear and tear, and we were just kind of like, why don't they maintain it? Which was interesting. [00:14:27] Aaron: Well, and this is the second piece of what we do, the consulting piece of this because we have conversations like this all the time. 'Well, I've got this property that behaves very differently than this property. Right? And how do we appropriate these funds commensurate to the type of building?' It really is dependent on the purpose. Like people, not any property is really identical. They're not used the same way. They're not used the same frequency. Yeah. They're not in the same climate zone, et cetera, et cetera. And I think of a similar building that you just described in Montana. So we did recently did a site inspection on this architecturally really fascinating building. And they kind of jammed it into the corner of two main intersections. Okay. And the whole building architecturally is steel. It's intentionally rusting, and it's intentionally that way to keep the maintenance low. That steel on the outside will outlive all of us. And so the maintenance won't be going into the exterior of this building. It was designed for a very low maintenance exterior. Now, the interior finishes are different. The interior, it's got this high end deck and you've got this neat garden area and, you get into the inside, it's got this, really nice elevator and all of these things require a high level of maintenance in order to keep functionality optimal for that particular property. [00:15:42] We do some properties for investors that really intentionally just want to strip out and, for lack of a better term, it sounds bad the way I say it, but, we treat it a little bit differently. They want to strip out every dollar that they can because it's just not a high valued property to them, wherever it might be or however they might be using it. In which case we can put together a plan that. Creates basically what we call a baseline funding. It's a zero funding. It's just setting aside just enough to fund the needed maintenance to meet those financial goals. Again, being very intentional, right? I think most investors and executors fail when you have multiple properties and they start using funds from other properties to carry another or they're not intentional about the monies they're setting aside for maintenance. [00:16:29] Jason: So let me ask a question. So I recently bought a house. I'm here in it right now. Right? And it's over a decade old and we had a home inspection and most people connected to real estate are very familiar with a home inspection. How does a reserve study differ from a home inspection, maybe on like a single family residential property? [00:16:51] Aaron: Yeah, I'll be real candid with you, Jason. I think that the home inspection is very similar. Matter of fact, I have seen some really great home inspections where they will outline potential problems, right? That's the difference between maybe a typical inspector and a home inspector. An inspector might come in and they're going to say, 'okay, these are the things you need to do. These are the things that are really obvious.' A home inspector has a tendency like we do, to really get their hands dirty. They're looking for the little primers, the little cues that indicate that you have a leaking water heater, that the roof shingles are coming up on the ends and, stuff like that. And so I've been really impressed with some home inspections. The only real difference is taking that home inspection and converting it into datas, dollars, and timelines. So that's the difference. So when bought your home, you get a home inspection and it's left to you, buyer, to say, 'okay, well how do I feel about the fact that there's this, that and the other?' And you have to figure out a way to now negotiate that home inspection with your seller on what it means to you. What's the financial, consequence of that home inspection? We take it a pretty major step, but one step further where we say, 'okay, how long is that problem going to endure? When does it need to be replaced? And how much is it going to cost?' And then we build a report that actually puts numbers, dollars, and timelines to that. There's no more guesswork. The math now has a voice. [00:18:17] Jason: Got it. Got it. Okay, cool. Now I can see how this would be useful for rental properties, which are not just a home to live in, but they are a long-term investment and they're basically, each property is a business and it needs to be able to be maintained. It needs to run well, especially if their goal is to have it accrue in value over time, or for it to be making them a certain amount of money each month. Et cetera. So, okay. [00:18:47] Aaron: Now there's two pieces of that though, right? All right, so you've got, I mentioned in the beginning that you've got this kind of physical aspect the site inspection and then the data, and the vast majority, mind you, we don't shy away from data, but we also know how to read it. So when we produce a report, it's usually a lot to digest. And the second piece of that is, well, now what do we do with this data? How do I actually use this data and apply, and this kind of gets into the human element. So this is where it speaks to my psych degree, my salesmanship, if you will, which I just really love people. I think as much as we love properties and I do people, it's really what makes everything work. So now you've got to know, well, how do we take this data? And apply it to a property and in some cases apply it to manage the owner themselves. I'm not a hundred percent clear on your audience, for example. But if we just take a property manager that's managing to an investor, and I've been, in this circumstance, I've been that property manager managing to a CEO of a home builder that had multiple properties we were managing and they have certain expectations and sometimes those expectations are based on their feel, their gut feel. [00:19:59] And it was always better to manage that executor, that owner, that CEO with actual math, with the actual numbers where I can push back without it being a gut feel on my end. So I have what I call the LIL effect, like coin that myself, LIL, like little, the little effect. So one thing that property managers incur too much is blame. When there's stressors, when there's misunderstanding, when maybe the profitability is not there. Yeah. Property managers inadvertently end up being the scapegoat for owners that have left the management to the property, but shouldn't be leaving maybe the profitability to the property manager. Right? So we have what we call the LIL effect. So, and the LIL effect simply is the first L is listen more to your clients. You'd be shocked Jason. How often as a vendor... so I'm usually brought in as kind of a vendor to augment what the property manager might be doing for the owner. And you'd be surprised how many times the vendor or the owner may call and want some specific details that the property manager, doesn't know or is fine deferring to us because we do some consulting. [00:21:14] And then they open up about all sorts of problems and complaints and I'm constantly on the defence. I want to focus on the data and, not necessarily the complaints, but I'm a fly on the wall all the time. And one of the biggest complaints is that they're I think is that they're just not being heard enough. So property managers do a great job managing properties, but sometimes there's a pivot point that they miss with their owners, their clients, their executors. And so the first L is just listening more to the client. The 'I' that we have in the LIL effect is Intention, so being very intentional about building trust. I know a lot of property managers that are really good in the industry because they just, are honest and they just naturally build trust. But if they're not intentional, they leave so much of that trust on the table and they can build a lot of trust by being intentional. So the first L is for listening more to your clients. The 'I' is for intentionally building trust. In fact, an interesting story to go along with that. When I worked for a builder I was told at the very outset that there was an architect, very difficult to work with. We'll call him Brian. And Brian was impossible. [00:22:26] Brian did things his way and he was just difficult to work with. He was the head architect, so everything had to run through him, and if you couldn't get it through him, you couldn't get it done. And I had to get stuff done through him as a fairly new employee with this builder. And I determined right in the beginning that I would figure out a way to earn his trust. And I decided early on that I would just believe everything Brian told me. I would just take it at face value, trust, the fact that he knew what he was doing. Now everybody knew that he was emotionally driven, right? And a fascinating thing came out of this, Jason, I learned over the course of, less than a year, took some time, but I learned over the course o of that year that number one, I earned Brian's trust by hearing him out, asking questions strategically, and being very intentional about building that trust. The other thing that actually was quite fascinating to me is that I learned to really respect Brian. I gained a relationship with him and I could get things done through Brian that nobody else could, simply because I'd been intentional and at the time it was kind of accidental intention. Yeah. And it was a phenomenal relationship that he and I had. He was pretty rough around the edges, had his way, but I had, I could bend his ear, unlike most people could because I'd spent a significant amount of time building that trust. [00:23:48] Jason: That's interesting. I had a job working at HP and there were two of us on a team. We managed this software called Concentra, which was this workflow for all of their PDFs and documents for all their computers, printers, at everything to move through to make sure that there was some sort of quality. And it, it went through legal and it went through everything else. And so there were us two nerds and our boss was in, we were in Boise and our boss was in Texas. And I noticed he didn't trust us. He was always like trying to micromanage us and distrustful of us, and so I just started setting-- we used an instant message tool to communicate most of the time, so I just started changing my status. I'm like, how can I make him feel safer and trust me? So I had the intention. To build trust. And so, and the way I did that is I just communicated through my messenger status, showing what I was working on all the time, so he didn't have to ask me and say, 'Hey, did you guys doing stuff? Or what are you doing?' It just said, 'I'm working on this and I'm working on that'. And I would just update it throughout the day. He started to trust me and then he started to ask me about my coworker, what's he doing? Is he getting stuff done? I thought that was really funny. Yeah. Like acting like he'd-- this guy like didn't even know our names though. He like, eventually he just couldn't even remember our names, which is sad. [00:25:02] Aaron: But that level of transparency, solves all so many problems before they occur. [00:25:07] Jason: Yeah. So I like that. Yeah. Property managers need to listen more to their clients and they need to focus on the intention of building trust because really, I tell my clients sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. Yeah. In order to get clients, but keeping clients. Same thing, retaining a client, you're continually selling them on why they should be with you. It involves trust. Yeah. Trust goes, they go. [00:25:33] Aaron: It does. And it really is about being intentional, right? Because again, I know property managers who are quite good at it, but they're, there's a difference with being intentional. Yeah. Being strategic. [00:25:44] Jason: Yeah. because if their intention is just to do their job, that's not going to necessarily create trust. But if their intention is to create trust, then they're far more likely to do it. Yeah. This is interesting too becausewe have a tool we use with our clients so they can get more out of their day and we call it DoorGrow's Daily Planning. We have this daily planning exercise, and the goal is to map out, part of the daily planning exercise is to figure out what are all the appointments you have for the day, and then what intention do you have for each of those? Because we find just by having an intention and being clear on what your intention is with a particular outcome, you're far more likely to get the result ironically. So, if your intention is to go into a conversation and win, or create a win-win or to benefit them or whatever, you're far more likely if you're clear on that intention, then you just go into it and go, 'well, I have a meeting.' Right. Yeah. So, yeah. [00:26:36] Aaron: Well, I couldn't agree with you more. It's so we've got listen more to the clients, right? So to finish the LIL effect, intentionally build trust. And the last one, Is really one of the most undervalued, and that's, listen to your trades. And I'm not talking about just hearing them out, I'm talking about like understanding, understanding their perspective. You'd be shocked how many, so I talk to trades a lot. [00:27:00] Jason: Define trades. Are you talking about vendors that'll do work on property? [00:27:03] Aaron: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Your concrete guys, your maintenance guy. The, these are invaluable people that, sometimes I think property managers don't reach out to these trades. At the level they could because they see a guy that, you know, just for lack of a better term, just eats concrete for breakfast. He knows concrete. He loves concrete, he's really good at it, and they want him to solve a problem concrete related. But I can't tell you how many times I've talked to vendors, I'm usually gathering price and I can speak their language and I know all things construction from the ground up. So I can get into those conversations and as I do that, I've been shocked. At how many things they keep close to the chest because they've learned, and this goes back to kind of the psych days learned helplessness. They've learned that nobody really wants their opinion. They just want them to solve a problem. 'Solve this concrete problem, fix this tree,' whatever it might be. And so they have learned over the years to just keep those things close to the chest. But what they have close to the chest is often little golden nuggets of understanding of both property and profitability. They have ideas on how to turn a property more profitable in their little, bucket of trade, right? They're concrete or they're trees and, property managers are leaving some profits on the table, in my opinion, because they're not getting those vendors, not building the trust with those vendors to glean the little pieces and it goes back to, I forget the name of the book, 1% Better, where if you're gathering 1% better and you talk to 15 different, vendors and they all can provide you, you know even half a percent profitability better, suddenly you have a property that's 7% more profitable. That's incredible. [00:28:46] Jason: Yeah. That's interesting. The last place I was in, we were renting and it wasn't managed by a property manager and the owner took two weeks to replace water heater because he was just being super anal and trying to figure out the best one. Basically a problem property managers can solve for people. And one of the plumbers came out and. He like was badmouthing the owner saying that he was being cheap and then he like, but the level of detail this guy was because I was just curious in asking questions because that's just my nature. He was telling me like, 'these type of water heaters, they last this long, this other one's going to go out soon. And if we put in one like this, I recommend it be this capacity because it's going to last this much longer or do this' like the level of detail he knew about water heaters. Brands of water heaters and how much, putting the right one in and what it could save you in the long term and doing the long term. I was like really impressed. Yeah, so this rings very true to me. Everybody that is really an expert in their craft. And this guy ran his company, so we were lucky that he was the one that came out, I guess. The level of expertise that some of these vendors or trades, or not sure they call them tradies, yeah. That they have is really yeah, it, I can see how it could be a huge asset. [00:30:04] Aaron: Huge asset. So that's the LIL effect. They really are a huge asset. So you've got, listen more to your clients, the intentional of building trust, and listening to your trades and vendors and anyway, that LIL effect will produce positive consequences every day of the week. There's really no negative and it's kind of rare that you can apply a strategy and not have, some downside of it. But it's pretty easy to apply. Maybe a more listening and intentional ear. Yeah. Something that we're noticing, that kind of goes along with this, and I think everybody's probably feeling this at this point. I've been waiting for everybody to feel like the pinch of what's going on, right. So, one thing that we're trying to do here for our business is just constantly be on the pivot where, well, what are our clients feeling? Yeah. What are they experiencing? What are their hardships and challenges? What other problems can we solve? And we've been doing that since inception, but I've been waiting since kind of some of the overall damage from where it started with Covid. When is this downstream damage going to really start affecting just masses, right? And profitability and properties and so forth? And over the last four to six months we're seeing more of it. And on our end, we're ready for that pivot. And what that pivot looks like is when people are pinched financially and emotionally. And additionally, right now politically, when people feel pinched in corner like this, yeah they have a tendency to retreat into corners, right? It's the old adage, that we retreat into our shell. And as people do that, unfortunately trades and property managers, when they're feeling kind of this trifecta of pinch, they have a lack of control. This goes back to the psychology. They have a lack of control. So what do people do when they're losing control of one thing? They go and gain control of another, right? [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah. They start micromanaging other stuff. [00:31:54] Aaron: Yes. And asking all the wrong questions in that micromanagement, right? And so they start micromanaging, they start trying to regain control. And I see sometimes property managers pushing back because again, the client's asking the wrong group of questions, seeking for some semblance of balance of control. And as they push back, then they're usually again scapegoated into some failure, some misunderstanding, some reason that the client needs to retake or re grab control. Yeah. And when they're insecure and out of control, we often coach our clients to tell them, 'look, let them. Give them a moment. They don't want to drive the car. They don't really want to drive the car. Yeah. They want to know that they can drive the car.' Right. And so clients come, they feel uncomfortable, they want to regain control. And so we'll tell our property managers many times, ' let them sit in the driver's seat. It's like taking a teen, and you remember the old driving the cars, they had a brake pedal in the passenger seat where the instructor could sit and slam on the brakes and-- [00:33:04] Jason: Yeah. [00:33:04] Aaron: --Scare the teen right out of his gourd. I mean, that's how I learned to drive from a instructor. But it's kind of-- [00:33:10] Jason: sounds like a mean instructor. [00:33:12] It's sometimes though it's like that the property [00:33:14] Aaron: manager would be wise to step aside for a moment and let them get in. Actually a lot like you did with, telegraphing. Almost over transparency. This is what I'm doing, this is what I'm doing. Let them see how you're driving. Let them see every turn you're making. And eventually they get to a point where they're like, yeah, he's driving fine. I don't, they don't want to drive. And property managers hold that close to the chest. I can't let them get in. I can't let them, do X, Y, and Z because that's my job. That's my responsibility. And they guard that tenaciously and that actually leads to more distrust in the moment than trust. [00:33:48] Yeah, I actually [00:33:49] Jason: teach. And I've had a podcast episode on this subject before, but I actually teach clients that the one thing that people want to buy from a property manager is not property management. What they want to buy is safety and certainty. Yeah. They want to buy peace of mind. That's really what you're selling as a property manager. And so if you're not using LIL and that framework, And you're not going to get those positive consequences. And if you're not making them feel safe, you're actually going to have a higher operational cost in your business because you're going to have a whole bunch of owners that are micromanaging you because yes, if they don't feel safe, they're going to create safety. Yes. In the form of leading and micromanaging you. And if the only positive way to push back on that is to let them know that you know what you're doing to showcase the expertise and let them know that you are better at this than them. Yes. Based on proven history and results. Yes. [00:34:44] Aaron: I, that is such a great point, Jason. Matter of fact, that's really, really kind of the key, if they'll filter everything through what you just said, if they'll filter everything through this idea. Building that trust and managing that relationship that way and not the property. The property's easy to manage. People are tough to manage. True. And if you'll manage to those, like you said, those, those expectations with their end goal then you can manage the property kind of on, on the side. In fact, it's interesting. I would also say that anytime, That they see Anytime that, our clients see micromanagement from their clientele, that should be the first cue that they're on their way out. Yeah. You know that they're, they don't trust you, that they're not trusting and that eight, eight out of 10 times 80% of the time, I would say that when you have an owner or property manager or an executive body that's frustrated or micromanaging they don't know it yet sometimes, but they're already beginning the process of finding somebody who they feel that can do a better job and they never do. [00:35:50] They only find somebody to solve a problem for a minute. But the problem is really, like you said, trust, expectation, those relationships, because the property is not the challenge. [00:36:01] Jason: Yeah. I mean, there might be one counter to this. So one thing that's I think is really interesting is we'll have clients in our coaching program and sometimes they're just like grumpy and they complain about everything and they're frustrated, but they stay. And then sometimes they're really happy and they're getting great results and then they leave. And so what we've learned to pay attention to, In the realm of client success is that it's not even necessarily connected to whether or not they are happy or you're getting them great results or not. Which is really weird, but client retention is based on whether or not they still see a future with you or not. And that there's a future plan. And so as long as they have a future goal, a future roadmap, they might be miserable as they do all of it, but they'll still stick with you because they see a future that includes you, and so they'll stay with you, but it's very easy for them to start creating a new future the second they start not having a good experience with you, they start to imagine, man, it might be better with somebody else. Yeah. [00:37:00] Aaron: And with that, you can't discount the 80 20 rule either, right? There's a, there's the law of averages and statistically speaking, it's been proven, a thousand times that. 20% of your clientele is going to be 80% of your time expenditure. Right. [00:37:13] Jason: Which is why you should probably fire 20% of your clients. [00:37:17] Aaron: I knew you were going to say that. I set you up, Jason. I knew you were going to say that. I the truth is I've actually watched property managers do that very thing and they just end up with the different 20%. Right? Right. Yeah. So better, the better way to do it is if you're going to fire, because I don't think. I don't think the idea is lost. I think you got to look at profitability and Yeah. Which ones are really not making you money, right? And those are the ones to let go because you're going to end up with the same 20% of kind of high maintenance clientele. And if they're profitable, then maintain it. And if they're not, then call it and get to the 20% of higher profitability clients. Right. That's again, coming back to intention. [00:37:58] Jason: I would agree related, if you're focused just on the currency of cash, but if you're focused on the currency of like your peace of mind and time and other things, then it might not be worth it. [00:38:10] Aaron: Some. That's a great point. That's so true. [00:38:12] Jason: So it might not be worth it because it really, the goal of a business isn't just money. The goal of a business is to give us more freedom, more fulfillment as a business owner, more of a sense of contribution and more support. That's why we build a business, why we build a team. And so some owners are stealing that from people, and I think a lot of times it's easily solved by just setting really good boundaries, expectations. And like you were talking about communication. Yeah. And that most owners, when they're micromanaging like that, they just want to know you're actually holding the steering wheel. That's it. As soon as they recognize that, they're like, oh, okay, I'm fine. And so a lot of times it's just a matter of being stronger towards them. Like some of my clients, I teach them to say, 'No, Mr. Owner, we're not going to do that and here's why.' And then suddenly that owner disarms. But a lot of times if they say, okay, I'll do that for you, the owner then goes, 'oh, I now need to lead them through everything to get the results that I want.' [00:39:08] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. So that's great. [00:39:12] Jason: Interesting stuff. All right, so, now a lot a lot of my clients are managing small multi-family units, single family residential, maybe some condos. There might be some association management. When does it make sense to reach out to North Star? [00:39:28] Aaron: When they want to use and empower the actual math is what I call it, when they want to use and empower the actual revenue versus expense load for decision making processes. Okay. It's really, there's a balance between the revenue and the expense load, and in almost all cases, the expense load is higher. So when I call it a balance, it's not like it's an equal balance. The expense load over time is higher when you factor in the revenue with profitability, et cetera. So how do we empower the math to make decisions based on the actual dollars and cents and not just aesthetics? [00:40:08] Jason: Okay, so let's take an example. Should they reach out to North Star if they have an owner that they can tell is not doing things mathematically effectively so that they can actually leverage your data in insight to say to this owner, you're being an idiot. You need to do it this way. Is that a good case example. [00:40:28] Aaron: It's a great example. In fact, in downtown Boise there's a highrise, I won't mention it. And very nice, very, kind of high end highrise. And the property manager called us, this is actually just a couple years ago, but I still play this one out because it changed everything. And they were ready to spend $50,000 just on a furniture rehab. And long story short is the furniture was already nice. I mean, high end from the lobby to the rooftop. And in the end we ran through reserve study, helped them see that a $50,000 was not only not in the budget, but a gross overspend. They still spent 15 grand, but that other 35 went to a future roof project that they were not only not prepared for, but didn't have properly funded. So the answer is yes, to I would say anytime that a property manager wants to help mitigate or remove the emotion from the pushback that they might get with their owners or executive body and using the math to make those financial decisions, that's an appropriate time to call North Star. Another great aspect of having a reserve study and having the proper financial is creating continuity. So once you start that decision making process, owners and property managers get really good at creating continuity for that decision making process, and that reduces the time expenditure on a property that reduces the discussion, meeting time, expenditure with their owners. And so we call it continuity. In fact, we have a continuity program, which is really a consulting program that we use the existing study to take them through a year long process of decision making and preparation where we are basically on retainer by the course of the year to interact and help create that continuity. Directly, it's actually always designed for the property manager. So that's create continuity for the property manager to use the financials to manage those long-term decisions. [00:42:20] Jason: So I imagine another use case would be they're about to take on a rough property and I get questions like this, should I take it on? Yeah. I mean, often the answer is no. But if the owner is amenable to like fixing it up, making the changes necessary, but a lot of times there's a lot of emotion in it for them. Yeah. And so if they can connect them to the math and to reality through something like working with North Star then, and they're willing to do this, then they could end up being a good client and it could be a good scenario. [00:42:51] Aaron: That's correct. And we resist all things boiler plate, right? We like to tailor it to the real circumstance. We do use some boiler plate numbers to help owners get to a basic understanding of profitability and whether or not to buy a property. More often than not, Jason the questions usually: I want to make an improvement on an existing property, and should I? What's the downstream cost and the downstream cost of maintaining that improvement? Yeah. Right. We want to resurface the streets and, or we want to we want to add in a bar to this, to this, mini restaurant or a bar area. And so you, we've got to look at, where the cost expenditure is and the long-term maintenance of that improvement. [00:43:33] Jason: I would imagine that property managers, if they've even done a few of these situations or scenarios with you, learn an immense amount of insight and knowledge just by through association with what you're doing. [00:43:48] Aaron: Yes. In fact, that's, I didn't start this business doing the consulting side of this. I started with just, reserve studies, right? We just produce a reserve study, we produce the math, and it's my nature to kind of help people through that. And I don't push back on people with meeting and the time expense of meeting. [00:44:05] I help them through it. But that has evolved over years into really a full consulting program because you're exactly right, property managers when they really know how to use it They need less of my expertise on the reserve study and more of my expertise on using the reserve study to manage again, people right, to manage expectations of people, to manage tough conversations with people. Property managers have more longevity in managing a property. I find when one, they have that trust, and two, they do have some profitability because you're right, it is about those people. But their investors want to see good financials. And when the property manager can focus on intentional trust while at the same time producing transparent and profitable financials, I mean, I don't know why anybody would want to leave a property manager that is performing at that level. [00:45:00] Jason: Yeah. So I think the next question somebody would have is, this has to be really expensive. Would it make sense? Like say I get an investor and he's got like, a hundred unit building, or I get a different investor and he's got a hundred single family units and I'm going to bring in this portfolio. Is this something that. Is financially going to make sense? Is there a way for this property manager to convince the owner to do this, and for the property manager to be able to afford to do this in a way that it's going to make them money? [00:45:32] Aaron: Yeah. In a very rare circumstance, has it not really and I'm just being very candid, in a very rare circumstance, has it not financially made sense. In fact, in 2019, and it just happened to be a good timing in late 2019, we created what we call a virtual site inspection for those properties were financially, they just don't maybe have the volume of assets to merit a 30 year full reserve study in the consulting. Yeah. And and so we do a virtual site inspection, which is a little bit more boiler plate, but we'll go on. As long as I have satellite images, I'll do a virtual site inspection from satellite imagery. I can usually get some really great street view images and I can build a reserve study without ever leaving the office. We have staff here and I've got one guy and that's all he does. He just looks at those virtual studies. He builds these virtual studies so we don't ever have to mobilize. We did that because that got the price, the mobilization costs down and therefore it got the price of the reserve study commensurate to producing well, just a profitable report, so it didn't make sense. Yeah, it's not cheap to to, again, to be candid with you, there's a lot that goes into it. Sure. On a high rise, we might have, 80 hours into a full study with the site inspection and all the data gathering. So it's generally not cheap. And so we do try to find balance in that. [00:46:49] Jason: Got it. Well, this is interesting. I think we've gotten a lot of info from you. I appreciate you being here on the show. [00:46:57] For those that are curious or interested in maybe doing their first, reserve study or in connecting with you, how can they get ahold of north Star Reserve? [00:47:10] Aaron: Well, for your customers and clients, Jason, I'd give my personal information out. So they can contact me directly at aaron@northstarreserves.com. [00:47:21] aaron@northstarreserves.com, all spelled out northstarreserves.com is our website. They can call our office at (208) 365-0977 and we'd be happy to help out, put a quote. I don't charge for any upfront consulting. We'll take anybody through their property, their needs just to make sense and vet out whether or not it even makes sense. And I I feel that's just ought to be industry standard, and help people make sure it makes sense in the first place. Right. [00:47:52] Jason: Awesome. Well then hopefully everybody reaches out. Right? I appreciate you. All right, awesome. Well, we appreciate you being on the show, Aaron. This was really insightful and yeah, I'm really, I'm going to be curious to see how this could help benefit some of our clients as well. So thanks for coming on. [00:48:09] Aaron: Yeah, thank you. Appreciate you, Jason. All right, so check out northstarreserves.com. Now, if you are a property management entrepreneur and you are wanting to grow your business, add doors, reach out to DoorGrow. We can help you do this if you're wanting to scale your operations, you just feel like you're banging your head against the wall. You're frustrated. You're trying to deal with all these different tools and software and trying to figure out what's the best way to scale my business. And to make a business that's infinitely scalable? You're going to need a lot of systems. And we've developed what we call the Super System. So you're going to need a people system for hiring and vetting candidates. You're going to need a system for operations in an operating system for planning that motivates your team instead of it's top down pushing your team all the time. We have DoorGrow OS. We have DoorGrow Hiring. You're going to need a system for documenting processes. We have DoorGrow Flow, which is a flow chart based software for mapping out processes and having your team run processes through. So if you're wanting to grow your property management and you're wanting to scale it, you're wanting to get a really good coaching for your operator or operations person. You're wanting to get really good coaching for your BDM or your salesperson to grow and scale and add doors. We are the best at this, so reach out to my team. We have a plethora of coaches and resources. [00:49:32] We've been doing this for over a decade. We love growing and scaling property management companies, and we know that we can help you. If you're willing to just do what we tell you to do, so reach out to DoorGrow. We would love to help you out. And if you want to test just something, test your website, go to DoorGrow.com/quiz test your property management website and see how effective it is. Usually this is enough to get people to wake up and go, 'Hey, I've got some leaks in my business people.' So most of you have leaky websites that you've gotten from people that are not DoorGrow, and your website is leaking you leads, deals, and money every single week. You could potentially be getting twice as many leads in deals if you're scoring an A on this DoorGrow Quiz. But most are scoring a D, C, or sometimes an F, right? So take this quiz, check it out, DoorGrow.com/quiz and grade your website. And that's it for today. Until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:50:30] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow! [00:50:57] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

“That really hit home for me that as long as I was working for someone else, I was never probably going to get where I wanted to be,” shares Jason Stendalen, owner and agent of c4 Insurance Company. Jason and his wife are serial entrepreneurs with 4 businesses between the two of them. Jason's goal with c4 is to really shake up the industry and change the way people think about insurance. In spite of encountering many challenges and having to fully restart from zero multiple times in a row, Jason has always maintained his resilience and consistency. Each new start was met head on and he did not let the fear of failure get in his way.    It can be daunting to step outside the box and keep moving forward even after setbacks. Jason attributes much of his resilience to having a strong support system encouraging him and holding him accountable each step of the way. If you have been considering stepping out on your own and becoming an entrepreneur, don't let fear of trying something new hold you back. Even if you do not succeed right away, keep going anyway. As long as you believe in yourself and really love what you do, you will find a way to make it work.   If you have been considering stepping out onto a new path and pursuing your dreams of entrepreneurship, don't be afraid to try. Stay resilient and consistent, even in the face of challenges or roadblocks, and you may be surprised by all that you can achieve.   Quotes • “That really hit home for me that as long as I was working for someone else, that I was never probably going to get where I wanted to be, or they were going to require things that I didn't want to do. And so that just kind of hit home for me that maybe I needed to find a different avenue to pursue my dreams.” (8:37-8:58 | Jason)  • “No matter what industry you're in, I think there's bad apples out there that kind of ruin that for all of us. And there's people that are ethical and do things maybe not the way that most of us would probably appreciate. And so I just really wanted to change that. And so C4 was created because I wanted to just change the industry.” (14:37-14:58 | Jason) • “I think just being honest and living by the golden rule and just treating people the way that we want to be treated, I think that goes a long way. And I think that gets lost today.” (19:06-19:17 | Jason) • “Just growing and maintaining our current path, that's our primary focus is to just continue to do a good job.” (30:12-30:19 | Jason) • “You have to take a step outside the box. You have to do something that you haven't already tried. Don't be afraid to fail.” (32:12-32:19 | Jason) • “Talk to someone that's going to support and encourage these movements, these thoughts, these actions, and someone that's going to hold you accountable to actually taking steps towards it. That's the only way you're going to get there.” (32:48-33:00 | Jason)    Links Get in touch with Jason Stendalen: Website: www.C4ins.com Ph# (608)824-7267 Email: jason@c4ins.com Address: 8446 Excelsior Drive Ste 2, Madison, WI 53717 Get in touch with host Jeff Meyer: www.jeffmeyercoaching.com Book a FREE 30-Minute Dream Discovery Call with Jeff: https://calendly.com/d/dk6-mzr-dsq Schedule a Discovery Call with Jeff: https://go.oncehub.com/DreamAcceleratorDiscoveryCall   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

In this episode, we cover: Introduction (00:00) Chandan's background and building CoinTracker (02:26) The tipping point into crypto and tax compliance (06:14) Trials and tribulations of committing to crypto (11:30) Thoughts on expanding into enterprise (14:00) Reflections on recent tax regulation and some expected shifts (18:42) Expanding the relationship with the consumer (21:30) Working in the ecosystems of integrations (24:38) Where CoinTracker is headed (29:00) Links: CoinTracker: https://www.cointracker.io/ First tax guidance that the IRS released: https://www.irs.gov/irb/2014-16_IRB#NOT-2014-21 More from CoinTracker For a 10% discount for new CoinTracker users go to: https://cointracker.io/a/boring Interested in working for CoinTracker? They're hiring across the board: https://www.cointracker.io/about TranscriptWill: Welcome to the Perfectly Boring podcast, a show where we talk to the people transforming the world's most boring industries.Jason: I'm Jason Black, general partner at RRE ventures.Will: And I'm Will Coffield, general partner at Riot Ventures.Jason: And today we're talking to the co-founder and president of CoinTracker, Chandan Lodha. Chandan is actually a classmate of mine in school and has since built, now, a unicorn business in the crypto tax space called CoinTracker. Not my first time talking to Chandan about the business, but maybe, Will, what were your impressions after our conversation?Will: Yeah, I was really impressed with, I think, the simplicity of the value proposition for CoinTracker. Which is—Jason, as you highlighted in the podcast, it's sort of death and taxes. And they found a kind of ubiquitous pain point that everybody participating in the crypto space feels around needing to become tax compliant at a certain point, and how they not only solve that problem but then think about it not as the finite value proposition, but as the beginning of what will be a sort of ubiquitous relationship with the consumer, and how to be a partner for them as they go deeper in their crypto portfolio and life.Jason: Yeah. And matching the increasingly complex landscape of crypto with an increasingly, kind of, simplified, approachable version that is within the confines of taxable events, et cetera, that brings that kind of trust all the way back.Will: Yeah, I mean, the landscape of integrations and assets that they have to get their arms around is not static. It is—Jason: It is not.Will: —[laugh] it is not static at all. And just really impressive what they've built over a relatively short period of time while also being founded in the midst of a bull market in 2017, building through the course of crypto winter, and now positioning themselves as you know, one of the category-defining platforms as we kind of go into another major building cycle for crypto.Jason: Yeah. Well, before we get too deep, let's jump into the interview.Will: Welcome to Perfectly Boring. Today, we're joined by Chandan Lodha who is the president and co-founder of CoinTracker. And today, we're going to be going on a deep dive into the very esoteric and complex world of taxes as it relates to the explosion in activity that is happening in Web3 and crypto trading. Chandan, thank you for joining us today, and we'd love to start by giving the audience a little bit of a background into your career and how you kind of ended up at this place and building what you're working on.Chandan: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. So, my background is mostly in the tech space. I was a product manager by training; I worked at Google for a couple of years. And basically ended up getting more interested in FinTech.And so my co-founder and I—my co-founder, John who's also from Google—basically ended up starting building in the FinTech space. And it was actually building on traditional financial rails, like, automated clearing house ACH and SWIFT network that was super slow, super inefficient, didn't work in a, kind of, internet-enabled digital way. That led us to be frustrated and diving deeper into the crypto space.Will: Awesome.Jason: And what in particular about the, kind of, tax angle was interesting to you? And give us—I mean, obviously crypto is moving so quickly, has been kind of accelerating, certainly recently, but it's gone through these waves. It's kind of important to know what the timing is and where that entry point was. So, maybe you can give us a little bit of sense of timing there, too.Chandan: Right. So, we started working on this in 2017, kind of mid-2017. And what was happening was we were building a personal financial assistant type of app that would help people save money, build wealth, kind of automate financial assistance. And like I was saying, it was really frustrating to work on ACH and SWIFT network. And the reason why is it would take 11 days for our first settlement between a checking and savings account bank transfer, with a $1 fee on a $5 transfer. So, it was slow, it was inefficient, it was expensive, it didn't work on weekends, it didn't work on holidays, it was not a 24/7, 365 system.And at around the same time, people were getting super hyped around cryptocurrency, right? This was leading up to one of the biggest bull runs at the time. And so we kind of got curious. We were pretty skeptical at first, to be completely honest, but we kind of dove in a little deeper. Like, what are the fundamentals here behind bitcoin and why is there so much hype here?And what we ended up finding out was, it was a digital-native, global financial system that could be built using this technology. So, that got us, kind of, intrigued from a technological perspective. And next thing you know, I had an Ethereum miner that we built in the office, I was running a Monero full node on my computer, I had 15 different cryptocurrency exchange accounts, it was just super wild. And as a result—Jason: Yeah, it's immediately going down the rabbit hole in crypto.Chandan: Down the rabbit hole. Exactly. Down the rabbit hole. And as any, sort of, early crypto person can tell you, the next thing you're trying to do is keep track of all your transactions and wallets and addresses. So, we had a complicated spreadsheet doing that.And then we had formulas pulling in price feeds, and then we had Google Apps Scripts. And it was two minutes to open the Google spreadsheet, so we basically built a very, very simple landing page that only allowed people to track their cryptocurrency portfolio. And it was just—it was a solution for ourselves. We ourselves were like, “We need this.” So, we built that.And we kind of knew we were onto something because immediately random people from around the world, people in Thailand, were emailing us saying, “This sucks and you need more features.” And we were like, “Wow, [laugh]. This random person in Thailand is emailing us complaining that our tool isn't good enough. That means we're onto something. We should make this better.” And, kind of, the rest is history.Jason: Gotcha. And you wouldn't have been the only one to continue down the path of, kind of, traditional financial tools. Like, there's been plenty of companies that have gone on to be quite successful, certainly, to varying degrees, but it's not like great tools having been built in that space. What was the tipping point into crypto? Was it this kind of global sense of scale when you have the people from Thailand or was it something else that made you switch and make a big bet, still? I know there was a lot of hype, but the fundamentals are still building in a big way.Chandan: Right. So, this ties back to the question you were asking about tax, and it kind of bridges into crypto as well. So, on crypto, in particular, we really wanted to work on something that had the potential of a thousand-X-ing in the next five years. And the reason why is because you know, we were leaving our cushy, comfortable, privileged lives at Google, and so if we're going to take a big risk, it better have asymmetric upside. And we felt like crypto is one of those few industries where yes, it's really risky, it's unclear whether it's going to take off—this is 2017—but if it does, you could change the world.And so that's why we took a bet on crypto is because we felt like we had confidence that there was a lot of asymmetric upside potential because the financial system that we were building on before was not internet-enabled, it was not globalized, it was not working 24/7, 365. So, that gave us competence on the crypto angle. And then what we ended up kind of figuring out is that if we build all the infrastructure to connect people's cryptocurrency exchanges, wallets, et cetera, then taxes becomes an obvious problem to solve for people with that same data set that people are willing to pay for right now. It wasn't some hypothetical, sort of, future blockchain IoT AR, something-something magic; it was, “I have this problem right now. I need to file my taxes. It's impossible to do by hand.” And we actually have all the data to make that possible. So, that's why we had the confidence on that.And to your other point, there were other people doing this; we were not the first. So, we actually, before building any of this stuff, googled it, tried to figure out what else was out there, and there were a couple solutions, but all of them were built for a very esoteric, sort of accounting-style audience, not smooth, really easy to use, best-in-class web apps that you would expect from, you know, 2017. And that gave us a lot of confidence that, wow, if a lot more people start using cryptocurrency, they're going to need something that is as easy to use as any other top Web3 app or Web2 app at that time. And so we have the confidence to take the bet there.Jason: Gotcha.Will: I remember 2017 is when I personally started trading crypto and thinking about it as a piece of my personal portfolio. And I remember that at the time, there was little to no framework and a tremendous amount of debate going on about what was taxable, what wasn't taxable, around what data the IRS was going to have, around what data the IRS was not going to have, and how to report your taxable information to the IRS. It felt a lot like the Wild West at that time. You must have made some, kind of, critical decisions about the way you believed taxes should be paid at the time without a lot of clear framework to substantiate it. Could you walk through it was going on at the time, how you were thinking about this maybe how things have evolved since?Chandan: Well, I'll start with a quick disclaimer that I am not a tax advisor, and this should not be taken as tax advice. [crosstalk 00:09:33]—Jason: [laugh].Will: That's—we're—Jason: Probably should have had that at the top.Will: —should have started with that. Yes.Chandan: But given that, I have been working in this space for four-plus years, and so I'm happy to provide some informational—sort of, what I've seen, which is, at the time—so the first tax guidance that the IRS released about digital assets was in, actually 2014. It's a public notice; you can Google it. It's [2021-14 00:09:55].And basically, the TL;DR of what it says is that cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin are taxed as property. Now, for the non-tax experts listening to this, what that means is that they have capital gains and losses somewhat similar to the way equities—stocks—do where there's a cost basis, which is the price you acquire the asset, and then there's the fair market value the time you sell, and the, kind of, the difference is your capital gain. So, that was kind of the framework that was already established. You know, if you're looking at government agencies and seeing who's moving the fastest, you know, the IRS is, you know, definitely wants to make sure that, you know, assets that people are speculating on are getting taxed properly.So, they had that framework in place for three years before we started doing any of this, and that gave us, sort of, the first principles groundwork on how we should, sort of, build our tax engine. Now, of course, the crypto industry is moving super-fast, way faster than regulators are going to be able to keep up with, and especially now we're seeing DeFi, we're seeing NFTs, we're seeing, sort of, all kinds of derivatives, perpetual futures, things that don't even exist in equities world. So, there are plenty of gray areas, but the core fundamental of having a property-style tax sort of set of rules applying to crypto gave us the groundwork to cover the vast majority of, sort of, ordinary cases. When there were gray areas, what our philosophy has always been is to kind of interpret the rules to the best of our ability, give people—our users—the ability to choose and make decisions, and sort of default to conservative options. And then for advanced users who are working with a CPA or accountant, the option to take a more aggressive approach if they want to.Jason: 2014. So, you already had a framework to kind of work with. Between then and now there's been a crypto winter. Like, walk us through what that meant for the business, and what that kind of clarified about your mission. Because for the companies that I've talked to that have kind of built through it was a very clarifying period of time, and a lot of people that were really maybe not as committed to it fell out, and the people who stuck through were rewarded in a really big way. Maybe you can talk us through some of the, like, the trials and tribulations that you went through as the market took a really big downturn, kind of on the tail end of 2018.Chandan: That resonates with me deeply. So, as you just said, basically, things were great in 2017. Anyone who was buying was going to make huge ROI. And then if you recall, early-2018, everything peaked and then plummeted. And so as a result, at the time, it was very painful, but in retrospect, it was actually very transformational for our company and for many others, in that a lot of hype and speculation and fraud and nonsense and BS and hysteria had built up because there were so much money being made.And that brought in a lot of, sort of, grifters and sort of like unsavory characters into the cryptocurrency space. And that was not great because then it ended up having this reputation of being very shady, when in fact, actually, a lot of the transaction activity has nothing to do with being shady at all. And so because there was this multi-year winter, a lot of the people who weren't long-term mission aligned with the, kind of, fundamentals of cryptocurrency building blocks, ended up leaving the space and moving on to other things. And it was really hard; we had to really tighten our bootstraps, really focus on cutting costs, really focus on delivering more user value. We, for example, launched a new portfolio subscription product during that time, which really helped us build up more revenue.But I mean, it was dire times. We were small team, it was really hard. The IRS extended the tax deadline in the US for the first time in history. And it hit us—you know, Covid in 2020 hit us in March, right around the time it was tax season when we make a lot of our normal revenue during a normal season. And so yeah, it was brutal.But because it was so brutal, it forced us to be really focused on product-market fit, delivering user value, growth, cutting costs, building profitability, which we did. And as a result, like you said, now the companies that have stuck with the crypto space through that winter, or through other winters, have built really loyal user bases that are highly retained, and people have seen what it's like to go through good times and bad times. So, that has made us very much stronger company now.Jason: And during that time, did you ever think about expanding into the enterprise side? I know you primarily focused on the… individuals who are less sophisticated, et cetera. Maybe you could walk us through the kinds of trade-offs that there are with working with enterprises. I'm sure you've spent a lot of time thinking about whether or not you'd expand into that space.Chandan: Definitely, we have thought about it. We actually even tested out some products and got some customers on board, and we do work with some enterprise customers. But like you said, our bread and butter is consumers. We built a really strong and compelling product in the B2C crypto tax and portfolio tracking space. I think what it comes down to is, as a startup—and you guys are, you know, investors; you talk to startups all the time—it's like, our key advantage is being very focused on one problem, and executing on it faster than a bigger company can. Again, as a result that has driven us to be extremely focused on solving these B2C problems.Now, I do think there's a very large and growing compelling opportunity to focus on enterprise including in the spaces that we're working in, but as a startup, the key thing we can do really well is focus. And so that's why we've been razor-focused on the B2C problems and pain points and products. And I do think as more companies now, more public companies, are bringing Bitcoin onto their balance sheets and their treasuries, we're seeing more—like, the crypto ecosystem itself is burgeoning. Like, there's all these crypto startups now, a lot of them are accepting payments in crypto, paying out in crypto, and they're all going to need ways of tracking this doing accounting, doing bookkeeping. It's very much in our natural wheelhouse of extension, it's just not the first thing we've chosen to tackle because we want to build excellent products in everything we take on.Jason: That makes sense.Will: What is the natural extension, in your perspective, about the relationship with the consumer after you solve this problem for them? What does this sort of open the door to, from kind of a product expansion and value expansion perspective?Chandan: So, right now, one of the core problems that CoinTracker solves is at the end of the year, you've completed all your transactions; we will reconcile them for you and generate some tax forms. The extension of that is basically providing year-round value to people, not just once-a-year value at the end of the tax season. And so I'll give you some examples. We, during Covid, like I was mentioning, launched this portfolio subscription that helps users basically get more insights into their cryptocurrency activity on a daily basis. That includes notifications, alerts, tax-loss harvesting strategies, cost basis information, the ability to optimize people's portfolios, year-round.And the reason why that matters so much is because it actually helps people do tax planning, wealth optimization, tax optimization, which can only be done during the actual tax calendar year, not when the year is over. So, that is one way that we're adding more value. And to take that even one step further, what is going to be really amazing is being able to actually help people make actions on their cryptocurrency in a non-custodial way. So, it's going to be really cool is now you have your wallets, you have your exchanges tracked here, we can help you do things like rebalance your portfolio, or tax-loss harvest your portfolio with a very simple UX, without storing your private keys because you're already using this as your central, sort of, hub to manage your cryptocurrency portfolio.Will: So, it's really—it's a path to being one of the definitive robo-advisor platforms for consumers as relates to their crypto exposure?Chandan: I think it's something similar to that. I'm not sure I would necessarily say it's exactly a robo-advisor because we're not imminently planning on becoming an investment advisor. But it's something in that vein, where it's a one-stop-shop to be really simple interface to interact with your cryptocurrency portfolio.Will: Given the volatility in crypto, tax-loss harvesting feels like such an unbelievably powerful tool if you can effectively deliver it to folks where it should just be extraordinarily valuable. That's really exciting. I hadn't thought about that.Jason: Well, and also, I think it's a part of the tax portion that individuals aren't typically thinking about, right? They're like, certainly, we have the Wall Street Bets people that are day-trading, et cetera, [laugh] but I think for the most part, people are, you know, building a basket over time, you know, I'm just talking about your average person that maybe they bought Bitcoin or Ethereum, it's gone up or down a little bit. And they wouldn't necessarily be thinking about tax-loss harvesting in their own, kind of, course of doing business. But they might be checking their CoinTracker—I get my emails every day, which is [laugh] honestly, like, a huge value in and of itself—and I've seen that in there, just that one simple thing where you can be saving money. I mean, it can be pretty substantial impact on your taxes in a world that's feels like it's getting more complicated.And maybe we can, kind of, circle back to the tax regulation. I don't know if you want to speculate on how things are changing right now, but we saw some regulation go through that was attached to the infrastructure bill, and reporting. Obviously, an explosion of activity, tons of rug pulls and scams that are unfortunate headline grabbers, to your point, around, it's not just shady actors, but they get the kind of the loudest, sometimes, out there. Where do you expect things to shift if you are able to make any kind of predictions? Or maybe you can give people a sense of since 2014, how the IRS has clarified their position on these assets.Chandan: Right. So, in 2014, cryptocurrency usage was a tiny fraction of what it is today. So, there was some guidance, there were some people, but it wasn't a central focus of the government. It was a very fringe thing, even in 2017 it was sort of like this. After that major bull run, people started making millions of dollars and it was just wild; it started getting more media coverage, things like that. There was a little bit more attention paid.Then a few years later, we started seeing the IRS send out tens of thousands of warning letters to people that they knew had cryptocurrency activity but hadn't filed. So, then we saw, okay, the IRS is stepping up its efforts and really paying attention to this. And now, like you just referenced an infrastructure bill in November of 2001, we basically saw that the government is going to basically force all US-based cryptocurrency exchanges to put all of their users into tax compliance by the end of '23. So, what we're going to see over the next few years is a very small number of people being tax compliant, going to really high level of compliance. And as a result, there's going to be tens of millions of American taxpayers are going to need to find a way to become tax compliant in their cryptocurrency transaction activity. And that is what makes such a compelling opportunity for us right now is that we've built a really compelling solution for exactly those users.Jason: Gotcha. And what is the role of, you know, the individual wallets? I mean, just from my own, I bought Bitcoin in 2014, you know [laugh]? I've been in it for a while. I ended up—Will: You love to brag, man. Congratulations.Jason: No, I sold it [crosstalk 00:20:48] eight grand. I thought it was a genius. Bought it, like, you know, $200 sold almost all of it at eight grand. So, it was it a great return on investment, but like, should have obviously held on. But I'm fairly deep in this space, have been for a while, and boy, do I have sprawl across—now I've got Solana Wallet, an Avalanche Wallet, I've got a Coinbase Wallet, MetaMask Wallet, I have crypto staked here, there, and everywhere.If you really are going down the rabbit hole, your assets are spread out in a big way. And I'm curious how you are helping your user base as I assume, you know, that these are accessible markets now to the normal person, right? You and I can become a market maker on Uniswap, and that's, like, a new thing for an individual user. Is that an interesting avenue for you guys to explore and expand your relationship with consumers? And do you have any insights as how that will be treated over time by the IRS?Chandan: Absolutely. Okay. So, I think you've touched upon multiple good points. The first is people are getting into more and more complexity in the crypto space. It's not just buying and selling Bitcoin anymore; it's all kinds of Web3 stuff. It's DeFi, it's NFTs, it's staking, it's lending, there's new crazier things that people are coming up with every day.And so this just further exacerbates that original problem that we saw in 2017 of people need a simple, unified way to keep track of everything that's going on, the sprawling sort of nature of cryptocurrency, like you said. So, that is absolutely in our wheelhouse. It's a major area of focus. We've recently added support for NFT tracking and portfolio tracking, and we're going to continue developing that further in the DeFi realm as well, like you said. We already support hundreds of different exchange integrations, thousands of different cryptocurrencies, and now there's things like L2s, all this kind of stuff.So yes, absolutely, very core to the focus of what we're doing. The second thing is helping make some of this more complexity and sprawling sort of cryptocurrency stuff more easily accessible to more people. Because yes, if you're Jason and you're a crypto guru who got into the space in 2014 and are super deep, awesome, but the average person isn't necessarily going to know how to be an automated market maker on Uniswap, or how to, like, stake their Avalanche or whatever. So that's, again, where some of the stuff that we were just chatting about becomes really critical is super simple, easy to use interfaces that wrap the complexity behind using all these protocols behind the scenes and make very simple UIs and user experiences for people to understand, what am I actually doing? How can I actually do it, but with simple buttons, not complicated tooling, or command-line tools, or you know, whatever other kind of complicated stuff people are having to do. So, that's sort of the second area where I think we can really help bring people into these new types of opportunities in a responsible way that helps them actually understand what's going on.Jason: What's so interesting about that is if we think of just like TurboTax, as, like, the really reductive [laugh] parallel here, right, to a certain extent, you are going the opposite direction that TurboTax is going, which I think is really, really fascinating. That you're kind of like leaning into, hey, we're actually going to help you proactively manage this, rather than just stay in the tax lane. Which I think is such a—you know, people do need, kind of, that trusted service or advisor or product or something like that, where they do know that they can be tax compliant, right? My parents aren't looking to, like, go super deep, and, like, figure out the tax stuff later, you know, but they want to be kind of active in some of that more trustworthy activities that are now accessible. So, I think that's a really interesting avenue of expansion and does feel really kind of core to your initial thrust.Will: Going to that point that Jason was just hammering on around the sprawl and this constant expansion of where relevant tax data sits, how do you think about the ecosystem of integrations and the depth that happens there maybe, particularly around some of the exchanges and major wallet providers? That's got to be a never-ending game of whack-a-mole, as you think about product and engineering.Chandan: Right. So, this gets to the sort of the core secret sauce of what makes CoinTracker valuable is that it is very hard to integrate all these things. Everyone has their own spec, everyone has their own API, everyone has their own format, many people don't have any format at all. The same coin has different names in different places, different prices in different places, different trading pairs in different places, and it's a total mess. And so what CoinTracker does, the key, the essence of what we do really well is integrate all of these things as they're always changing, evolving, adapting, getting more complex, and reconciling it into one straight-forward ledger of transaction activity.So, the core of what we're doing is basically partnering with all these different people and integrating them. So, you mentioned some of these APIs, like, for example, Coinbase is one of our partners, and we basically help make this super simple for anyone who's using Coinbase or Coinbase Pro. No matter what kind of activity you out there, it will be easily reconciled into CoinTracker. You mentioned TurboTax, too. Like, our ambition here is not to build a tax company. It's to make all of this sprawling complexity super simple and provide people value in various ways, for example, by integrating into TurboTax, and then you can get your taxes filed in TurboTax if you choose to be a TurboTax [unintelligible 00:26:06]—yes, that's exactly what we're focused on is taking the sprawling complexity of integrations, making all the engineering effort that's required to work on that at scale, but then obfuscating it away from users, so they don't have to think about it at all.Will: Yeah. And I would imagine all of those different stakeholders and exchanges and wallets are aligned in wanting to see a CoinTracker integration because they're going to see regulatory hurdles here around tax compliance be a hindrance on engagement from a consumer base and a hindrance on transaction volume if there isn't a really robust and really intuitive platform for folks to consolidate all that information.Chandan: You nailed it.Jason: I think also, it's just a brilliant way to funnel the largest possible footprint of crypto users into a single product, which is death and taxes. Like, [laugh] you know, like—Chandan: And Bitcoin.Jason: If you just think about it, it's like, okay, great. There's going to be a project here that does this, right? And this, that the other thing that's, like, trying to help you, but everybody is going to need to file their taxes. [laugh]. So, we can hit—some service provider in the US will hit basically one hundred percent of crypto users, and you guys are making yourself the most attractive point and then expanding that relationship with other products and services throughout the rest of the year. Which is—yeah, I think it's phenomenal.Will: Super. Yeah, it's really cool. So, now that we're full-swing in another bull market, what are the big challenges facing the business? What are the big, kind of, campaigns that you guys are on right now?Chandan: By far, the number one thing is scaling.Will: Yeah.Chandan: Like you said, last year was absolutely wild in the crypto space. The amount of growth that we're seeing on all dimensions, crypto trading, DeFi, NFTs, new users getting into this space, transaction volume, every single record was broken last year. And as you can imagine, taxes are a sort of lagging indicator of the success of transaction activity in the prior year. So, this is going to be by far the biggest crypto tax year in history. And we're a startup, so as a result, it's all hands on deck to scale and handle way more transaction volume, way more users, way more integrations, way more people, basically trying to get all this stuff figured out. And so for our US-based customers, that's kind of January through April, and we're recording right now in February, so we're getting right into busy season.Jason: [laugh]. Well, thanks for making time.Will: Yeah.Jason: You referenced US-based customers. I was going to ask around—this is happening everywhere. I think India might have just announced how they're going to be taxing crypto, there's massive, massive markets that are finally bringing some clarity to the crypto space. Where does that fall in priorities? I guess you got to get the US [laugh] right first, and then figure out the rest of the world later? Or where do the ambitions lie in the next couple of years, do you think?Chandan: I wish we had the luxury of just focusing on one country at a time, but like you said, new massive markets are coming online, and this is—you know, it's a land grab. So, right now, for the tax side, we support US, UK, Canada, and Australia. And on the portfolio tracking and portfolio subscription side, we actually have paying users in many countries. And the reason why we can do that as a small team is because the cryptocurrency sort of system works the same globally, right? Bitcoin works the same in India, and the US, Brazil, China because it's just an online protocol.What's different are the local tax rules, but 80% of what we're doing is integrations, right? It's understanding how the Bitcoin, sort of, blockchain works and setting up node infrastructure for the relevant chains, and reconciling all the data. And if we do that right in one place, it actually works everywhere. It's that last 20% of the go-to-market, partnering with the local tax experts, making sure everything is localized, language, payments, that is the kind of the lift for bringing on new markets. And you mentioned India; like, yes, there's tens of millions of new cryptocurrency users that are going to come online in the very near future who are going to basically need to figure out their taxes there as well and that is definitely an opportunity that we're excited about.Jason: That's awesome. Yet another advantage of building in the crypto space is that kind of like commonality, at least the baseline transactions, you don't have, like, a different system you've got to figure out for each country.Chandan: That's right.Jason: Makes a lot of sense.Will: The key question I have here, and this is sort of what we almost always wrap up with is if you're really successful if CoinTracker reaches its full potential, how has the world changed? What's the ten-year vision for where this company is going and the mark that you guys want to leave on not only this market but—it sounds like—the global economy?Chandan: Love this question. So, I think what you have to believe—you know, if you sort of suspend disbelief, and you imagine, okay, we're teleporting ten years into the future; what kind of currency are people using? And the kind of vision we have for this is a digital-native, global financial system. So, you can imagine, let's say some kind of cryptocurrency—Bitcoin or otherwise—is kind of the way that people are transacting value over time and space. And if that's the case, that means there's going to be billions of daily active users of cryptocurrency, billions.And all these people are going to have the same pain points around financial services that they do with fiat-based financial services, taxes, bookkeeping, portfolio tracking, sending, remittances, all these things. And what we want to do is build really simple tools that billions of people can use to manage all their cryptocurrency transactions. And the reason why we're doing all of this is because our mission is to help increase the world's financial freedom and prosperity. So, if we do this right, we will be able to do that on a global scale.Jason: Incredible. Love the mission. Thanks so much for coming in, Chandan. It was lovely to have you and congrats on all the success today.Will: Yeah, really unbelievably impressive, and we're super excited to not only be customers but to continue to track the success of the company as you guys build.Chandan: Awesome. Thank you guys so much, and good luck. I want to see your continued growth and success building out the podcast, too.Will: We'll need it. Thanks.Will: Thank you for listening to Perfectly Boring. You can keep up the latest on the podcast at perfectlyboring.com, and follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you next time.

About JasonJason Frazier is a Software Engineering Manager at Ekata, a Mastercard Company. Jason's team is responsible for developing and maintaining Ekata's product APIs. Previously, as a developer, Jason led the investigation and migration of Ekata's Identity Graph from AWS Elasticache to Redis Enterprise Redis on Flash, which brought an average savings of $300,000/yr.Links: Ekata: https://ekata.com/ Email: jason.frazier@ekata.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonfrazier56 TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Sysdig. Sysdig is the solution for securing DevOps. They have a blog post that went up recently about how an insecure AWS Lambda function could be used as a pivot point to get access into your environment. They've also gone deep in-depth with a bunch of other approaches to how DevOps and security are inextricably linked. To learn more, visit sysdig.com and tell them I sent you. That's S-Y-S-D-I-G dot com. My thanks to them for their continued support of this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This one is a bit fun because it's a promoted episode sponsored by our friends at Redis, but my guest does not work at Redis, nor has he ever. Jason Frazier is a Software Engineering Manager at Ekata, a Mastercard company, which I feel, like, that should have some sort of, like, music backstopping into it just because, you know, large companies always have that magic sheen on it. Jason, thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.Jason: Yeah. Thanks for inviting me. Happy to be here.Corey: So, other than the obvious assumption, based upon the fact that Redis is kind enough to be sponsoring this episode, I'm going to assume that you're a Redis customer at this point. But I'm sure we'll get there. Before we do, what is Ekata? What do you folks do?Jason: So, the whole idea behind Ekata is—I mean, if you go to our website, our mission statement is, “We want to be the global leader in online identity verification.” What that really means is, in more increasingly digital world, when anyone can put anything they want into any text field they want, especially when purchasing anything online—Corey: You really think people do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?Jason: I know. It's shocking to think that someone could lie about who they are online. But that's sort of what we're trying to solve specifically in the payment space. Like, I want to buy a new pair of shoes online, and I enter in some information. Am I really the person that I say I am when I'm trying to buy those shoes? To prevent fraudulent transactions. That's really one of the basis that our company goes on is trying to reduce fraud globally.Corey: That's fascinating just from the perspective of you take a look at cloud vendors at the space that I tend to hang out with, and a lot of their identity verification of, is this person who they claim to be, in fact, is put back onto the payment providers. Take Oracle Cloud, which I periodically beat up but also really enjoy aspects of their platform on, where you get to their always free tier, you have to provide a credit card. Now, they'll never charge you anything until you affirmatively upgrade the account, but—“So, what do you do need my card for?” “Ah, identity and fraud verification.” So, it feels like the way that everyone else handles this is, “Ah, we'll make it the payment networks' problem.” Well, you're now owned by Mastercard, so I sort of assume you are what the payment networks, in turn, use to solve that problem.Jason: Yeah, so basically, one of our flagship products and things that we return is sort of like a score, from 0 to 400, on how confident we are that this person is who they are. And it's really about helping merchants help determine whether they should either approve, or deny, or forward on a transaction to, like, a manual review agent. As well as there's also another use case that's even more popular, which is just, like, account creation. As you can imagine, there's lots of bots on everyone's [laugh] favorite app or website and things like that, or customers offer a promotion, like, “Sign up and get $10.”Well, I could probably get $10,000 if I make a thousand random accounts, and then I'll sign up with them. But, like, make sure that those accounts are legitimate accounts, that'll prevent, like, that sort of promo abuse and things like that. So, it's also not just transactions. It's also, like, account openings and stuff, make sure that you actually have real people on your platform.Corey: The thing that always annoyed me was the way that companies decide, oh, we're going to go ahead and solve that problem with a CAPTCHA on it. It's, “No, no, I don't want to solve machine learning puzzles for Google for free in order to sign up for something. I am the customer here; you're getting it wrong somewhere.” So, I assume, given the fact that I buy an awful lot of stuff online, but I don't recall ever seeing anything branded with Ekata that you do this behind the scenes; it is not something that requires human interaction, by which I mean, friction.Jason: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. It's behind the scenes. That's exactly what I was about to segue to is friction, is trying to provide a frictionless experience for users. In the US, it's not as common, but when you go into Europe or anything like that, it's fairly common to get confirmations on transactions and things like that.You may have to, I don't know text—or get a code text or enter that online to basically say, like, “Yes, I actually received this.” But, like, helping—and the reason companies do that is for that, like, extra bit of security and assurance that that's actually legitimate. And obviously, companies would like to prefer not to have to do that because, I don't know, if I'm trying to buy something, this website makes me do something extra, the site doesn't make me do anything extra, I'm probably going to go with that one because it's just more convenient for me because there's less friction there.Corey: You're obviously limited in how much you can say about this, just because it's here's a list of all the things we care about means that great, you've given me a roadmap, too, of things to wind up looking at. But you have an example or two of the sort of the data that you wind up analyzing to figure out the likelihood that I'm a human versus a robot.Jason: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's fairly common across most payment forms. So, things like you enter in your first name, your last name, your address, your phone number, your email address. Those are all identity elements that we look at. We have two data stores: We have our Identity Graph and our Identity Network.The Identity Graph is what you would probably think of it, if you think of a web of a person and their identity, like, you have a name that's linked to a telephone, and that name is also linked to an address. But that address used to have previous people living there, so on and so forth. So, the various what we just call identity elements are the various things we look at. It's fairly common on any payment form, I'm sure, like, if you buy something on Amazon versus eBay or whatever, you're probably going to be asked, what's your name? What's your address? What's your email address? What's your telephone?Corey: It's one of the most obnoxious parts of buying things online from websites I haven't been to before. It's one of the genius ideas behind Apple Pay and the other centralized payment systems. Oh, yeah. They already know who you are. Just click the button, it's done.Jason: Yeah, even something as small as that. I mean, it gets a little bit easier with, like, form autocompletes and stuff like, oh, just type J and it'll just autocomplete everything for me. That's not the worst of the world, but it is still some amount of annoyance and friction. [laugh].Corey: So, as I look through all this, it seems like one of the key things you're trying to do since it's in line with someone waiting while something is spinning in their browser, that this needs to be quick. It also strikes me that this is likely not something that you're going to hit the same people trying to identify all the time—if so, that is its own sign of fraud—so it doesn't really seem like something can be heavily cached. Yet you're using Redis, which tells me that your conception of how you're using it might be different than the mental space that I put Redis into what I'm thinking about where this ridiculous architecture diagram is the Redis part going to go?Jason: Yeah, I mean, like, whenever anyone says Redis, thinks of Redis, I mean, even before we went down this path, you always think of, oh, I need a cache, I'll just stuff in Redis. Just use Redis as a cache here and there. I don't know, some small—I don't know, a few tens, hundreds gigabytes, maybe—cache, spin that up, and you're good. But we actually use Redis as our primary data store for our Identity Graph, specifically for the speed that we can get. Because if you're trying to look for a person, like, let's say you're buying something for your brother, how do we know if that's true or not? Because you have this name, you're trying to send it to a different address, like, how does that make sense? But how do we get from Corey to an address? Like, oh, maybe used to live with your brother?Corey: It's funny, you pick that as your example; my brother just moved to Dublin, so it's the whole problem of how do I get this from me to someone, different country, different names, et cetera? And yeah, how do you wind up mapping that to figure out the likelihood that it is either credit card fraud, or somebody actually trying to be, you know, a decent brother for once in my life?Jason: [laugh]. So, I mean, how it works is how you imagine you start at some entry point, which would probably be your name, start there and say, “Can we match this to this person's address that you believe you're sending to?” And we can say, “Oh, you have a person-person relationship, like he's your brother.” So, it maps to him, which we can then get his address and say, “Oh, here's that address. That matches what you're trying to send it to. Hey, this makes sense because you have a legitimate reason to be sending something there. You're not just sending it to some random address out in the middle of nowhere, for no reason.”Corey: Or the drop-shipping scams, or brushing scams, or one of—that's the thing is every time you think you've seen it all, all you have to do is look at fraud. That's where the real innovation seems to be happening, [laugh] no matter how you slice it.Jason: Yeah, it's quite an interesting space. I always like to say it's one of those things where if you had the human element in it, it's not super easy, but it's like, generally easy to tell, like, okay, that makes sense, or, oh, no, that's just complete garbage. But trying to do it at scale very fast in, like, a general case becomes an actual substantially harder problem. [laugh]. It's one of those things that people can probably do fairly well—I mean, that's why we still have manual reviews and things like that—but trying to do it automatically or just with computers is much more difficult. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, “Hee hee, I scammed a company out of 20 bucks is not the problem you're trying to avoid for.” It's the, “Okay, I just did that ten million times and now we have a different problem.”Jason: Yeah, exactly. I mean, one of the biggest losses for a lot of companies is, like, fraudulent transactions and chargebacks. Usually, in the case on, like, e-commerce companies—or even especially like nowadays where, as you can imagine, more people are moving to a more online world and doing shopping online and things like that, so as more people move to online shopping, some companies are always going to get some amount of chargebacks on fraudulent transactions. But when it happens at scale, that's when you start seeing many losses because not only are you issuing a chargeback, you probably sent out some products, that you're now out some physical product as well. So, it's almost kind of like a double-whammy. [laugh].Corey: So, as I look through all this, I tended to always view Redis in terms of, more or less, a key-value store. Is that still accurate? Is that how you wind up working with it? Or has it evolved significantly past them to the point where you can now do relational queries against it?Jason: Yeah, so we do use Redis as a key-value store because, like, Redis is just a traditional key-value store, very fast lookups. When we first started building out Identity Graph, as you can imagine, you're trying to model people to telephones to addresses; your first thought is, “Hey, this sounds a whole lot like a graph.” That's sort of what we did quite a few years ago is, let's just put it in some graph database. But as time went on and as it became much more important to have lower and lower latency, we really started thinking about, like, we don't really need all the nice and shiny things that, like, a graph database or some sort of graph technology really offers you. All we really need to do is I need to get from point A to point B, and that's it.Corey: Yeah, [unintelligible 00:10:35] graph database, what's the first thing I need to do? Well, spend six weeks in school trying to figure out exactly what the hell of graph database is because they're challenging to wrap your head around at the best of times. Then it just always seemed overpowered for a lot of—I don't want to say simple use cases; what you're doing is not simple, but it doesn't seem to be leveraging the higher-order advantages that graph database tends to offer.Jason: Yeah, it added a lot of complexity in the system, and [laugh] me and one of our senior principal engineers who's been here for a long time, we always have a joke: If you search our GitHub repository for… we'll say kindly-worded commit messages, you can see a very large correlation of those types of commit messages to all the commits to try and use a graph database from multiple years ago. It was not fun to work with, just added too much complexity, and we just didn't need all that shiny stuff. So, that's how we really just took a step back. Like, we really need to do it this way. We ended up effectively flattening the entire graph into an adjacency list.So, a key is basically some UUID to an entity. So, Corey, you'd have some UUID associated with you and the value would be whatever your information would be, as well as other UUIDs to links to the other entities. So, from that first retrieval, I can now unpack it, and, “Oh, now I have a whole bunch of other UUIDs I can then query on to get that information, which will then have more IDs associated with it,” is more or less sort of how we do our graph traversal and query this in our graph queries.Corey: One of the fun things about doing this sort of interview dance on the podcast as long as I have is you start to pick up what people are saying by virtue of what they don't say. Earlier, you wound up mentioning that we often use Redis for things like tens, or hundreds of gigabytes, which sort of leaves in my mind the strong implication that you're talking about something significantly larger than that. Can you disclose the scale of data we're talking about her?Jason: Yeah. So, we use Redis as our primary data store for our Identity Graph, and also for—soon to be for our Identity Network, which is our other database. But specifically for our Identity Graph, scale we're talking about, we do have some compression added on there, but if you say uncompressed, it's about 12 terabytes of data that's compressed, with replication into about four.Corey: That's a relatively decent compression factor, given that I imagine we're not talking about huge datasets.Jason: Yeah, so this is actually basically driven directly by cost: If you need to store less data, then you need less memory, therefore, you need to pay for less.Corey: So, our users once again have shored up my longtime argument that when it comes to cloud, cost and architecture are in fact the same thing. Please, continue by all means.Jason: I would be lying if I said that we didn't do weekly slash monthly reviews of costs. Where are we spending costs in AWS? How can we improve costs? How can we cut down on costs? How can you store less—Corey: You are singing my song.Jason: It is a [laugh] it is a constant discussion. But yeah, so we use Zstandard compression, which was developed at Facebook, and it's a dictionary-based compression. And the reason we went for this is—I mean like if I say I want to compress, like, a Word document down, like, you can get very, very, very high level of compression. It exists. It's not that interesting, everyone does it all the time.But with this we're talking about—so in that, basically, four or so terabytes of compressed data that we have, it's something around four to four-and-a-half billion keys and values, and so in that we're talking about each key-value only really having anywhere between 50 and 100 bytes. So, we're not compressing very large pieces of information. We're compressing very small 50 to 100 byte JSON values that we have give UUID keys and JSON strings stored as values. So, we're compressing these 50 to 100 byte JSON strings with around 70, 80% compression. I mean, that's using Zstandard with a custom dictionary, which probably gave us the biggest cost savings of all, if you can [unintelligible 00:14:32] your dataset size by 60, 70%, that's huge. [laugh].Corey: Did you start off doing this on top of Redis, or was this an evolution that eventually got you there?Jason: It was an evolution over time. We were formally Whitepages. I mean, Whitepages started back in the late-90s. It really just started off as a—we just—Corey: You were a very early adopter of Redis [laugh]. Yeah, at that point, like, “We got a time machine and started using it before it existed.” Always a fun story. Recruiters seem to want that all the time.Jason: Yeah. So, when we first started, I mean, we didn't have that much data. It was basically just one provider that gave us some amount of data, so it was kind of just a—we just need to start something quick, get something going. And so, I mean, we just did what most people do just do the simplest thing: Just stuff it all in a Postgres database and call it good. Yeah, it was slow, but hey, it was back a long time ago, people were kind of okay with a little bit—Corey: The world moved a bit slower back then.Jason: Everything was a bit slower, no one really minded too much, the scale wasn't that large. But business requirements always change over time and they evolve, and so to meet those ever-evolving business requirements, we move from Postgres, and where a lot of the fun commit messages that I mentioned earlier can be found is when we started working with Cassandra and Titan. That was before my time before I had started, but from what I understand, that was a very fun time. But then from there, that's when we really kind of just took a step back and just said, like, “There's so much stuff that we just don't need here. Let's really think about this, and let's try to optimize a bit more.”Like, we know our use case, why not optimize for our use case? And that's how we ended up with the flattened graph storage stuffing into Redis. Because everyone thought of Redis as a cache, but everyone also knows that—why is it a cache? Because it's fast. [laugh]. We need something that's very fast.Corey: I still conceptualize it as an in-memory data store, just because when I turned on disk persistence model back in 2011, give or take, it suddenly started slamming the entire data store to a halt for about three seconds every time it did it. It was, “What's this piece of crap here?” And it was, “Oh, yeah. Turns out there was a regression on Zen, which is what AWS is used as a hypervisor back then.” And, “Oh, yeah.”So, fork became an expensive call, it took forever to wind up running. So oh, the obvious lesson we take from this is, oh, yeah, Redis is not designed to be used with disk persistence. Wrong lesson to take from the behavior, but did cement, in my mind at least, the idea that this is something that we tend to use only as an in-memory store. It's clear that the technology has evolved, and in fact, I'm super glad that Redis threw you my direction to talk to you about this stuff because until talking to you, I was still—I got to admit—sort of in the position of thinking of it still as an in-memory data store because the fact that Redis says otherwise because they're envisioning it being something else, well okay, marketers going to market. You're a customer; it's a lot harder for me to talk smack about your approach to this thing, when I see you doing it for, let's be serious here, what is a very important use case. If identity verification starts failing open and everyone claims to be who they say they are, that's something is visible from orbit when it comes to the macroeconomic effect.Jason: Yeah, exactly. It's actually funny because before we move to primarily just using Redis, before going to fully Redis, we did still use Redis. But we used ElastiCache, we had it loaded into ElastiCache, but we also had it loaded into DynamoDB as sort of a, I don't want this to fail because we weren't comfortable with actually using Redis as a primary database. So, we used to use ElastiCache with a fallback to DynamoDB, just in that off chance, which, you know, sometimes it happens, sometimes it didn't. But that's when we basically just went searching for new technologies, and that's actually how we landed on Redis on Flash, which is a kind of breaks the whole idea of Redis as an in-memory database to where it's Redis, but it's not just an in-memory database, you also have flashback storage.Corey: So, you'll forgive me if I combine my day job with this side project of mine, where I fixed the horrifying AWS bills for large companies. My bias, as a result, is to look at infrastructure environments primarily through the lens of AWS bill. And oh, great, go ahead and use an enterprise offering that someone else runs because, sure, it might cost more money, but it's not showing up on the AWS bill, therefore, my job is done. Yeah, it turns out that doesn't actually work or the answer to every AWS billing problem is to migrate to Azure to GCP. Turns out that doesn't actually solve the problem that you would expect.But you're obviously an enterprise customer of Redis. Does that data live in your AWS account? Is it something using as their managed service and throwing over the wall so it shows up as data transfer on your side? How is that implemented? I know they've got a few different models.Jason: There's a couple of aspects onto how we're actually bill. I mean, so like, when you have ElastiCache, you're just billed for your, I don't know, whatever nodes using, cache dot, like, r5 or whatever they are… [unintelligible 00:19:12]Corey: I wish most people were using things that modern. But please, continue.Jason: But yeah, so you basically just build for whatever last cache nodes you have, you have your hourly rate, I don't know, maybe you might reserve them. But with Redis Enterprise, the way that we're billed is there's two aspects. One is, well, the contract that we signed that basically allows us to use their technology [unintelligible 00:19:31] with a managed service, a managed solution. So, there's some amount that we pay them directly within some contract, as well as the actual nodes themselves that exist in the cluster. And so basically the way that this is set up, is we effectively have a sub-account within our AWS account that Redis Labs has—or not Redis Labs; Redis Enterprise—has access to, which they deploy directly into, and effectively using VPC peering; that's how we allow our applications to talk directly to it.So, we're built directly—or so the actual nodes of the cluster, which are i3.8x, I believe, on they basically just run EC2 instances. All of those instances, those exist on our bill. Like, we get billed for them; we pay for them. It's just basically some sub-account that they have access to that they can deploy into. So, we get billed for the instances of the cluster as well as whatever we pay for our enterprise contract. So, there's sort of two aspects to the actual billing of it.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats V-U-L-T-R.com slash screaming.Corey: So, it's easy to sit here as an engineer—and believe me, having been one for most of my career, I fall subject to this bias all the time—where it's, “Oh, you're going to charge me a management fee to run this thing? Oh, that's ridiculous. I can do it myself instead,” because, at least when I was learning in my dorm room, it was always a “Well, my time is free, but money is hard to come by.” And shaking off that perspective as my career continued to evolve was always a bit of a challenge for me. Do you ever find yourself or your team drifting toward the direction of, “Well, what we're paying for Redis Enterprise for? We could just run it ourselves with the open-source version and save whatever it is that they're charging on top of that?”Jason: Before we landed on Redis on Flash, we had that same thought, like, “Why don't we just run our own Redis?” And the decision to that is, well, managing such a large cluster that's so important to the function of our business, like, you effectively would have needed to hire someone full time to just sit there and stare at the cluster the whole time just to operate it, maintain it, make sure things are running smoothly. And it's something that we made a decision that, no, we're going to go with a managed solution. It's not easy to manage and maintain clusters of that size, especially when they're so important to business continuity. [laugh]. From our eyes, it was just not worth the investment for us to try and manage it ourselves and go with the fully managed solution.Corey: But even when we talk about it, it's one of those well—it's—everyone talks about, like, the wrong side of it first, the oh, it's easier if things are down if we wind up being able to say, “Oh, we have a ticket open,” rather than, “I'm on the support forum and waiting for people to get back to me.” Like, there's a defensibility perspective. We all just sort of, like sidestep past the real truth of it of, yeah, the people who are best in the world running and building these things are right now working on the problem when there is one.Jason: Yeah, they're the best in the world at trying to solve what's going on. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, because that is what we're paying them to do. Oh, right. People don't always volunteer for for-profit entities. I keep forgetting that part of it.Jason: Yeah, I mean, we've had some very, very fun production outages that just randomly happened because to our knowledge, we would just like—I would, like… “I have no idea what's going on.” And, you know, working with their support team, their DevOps team, honestly, it was a good, like, one-week troubleshooting. When we were validating the technology, we accidentally halted the database for seemingly no reason, and we couldn't possibly figure out what's going on. We kept talking to—we were talking to their DevOps team. They're saying, “Oh, we see all these writes going on for some reason.” We're like, “We're not sending any writes. Why is there writes?”And that was the whole back and forth for almost a week, trying to figure out what the heck was going on, and it happened to be, like, a very subtle case, in terms of, like, the how the keys and values are actually stored between RAM and flash and how it might swap in and out of flash. And like, all the way down to that level where I want to say we probably talked to their DevOps team at least two to three times, like, “Could you just explain this to me?” Like, “Sure,” like, “Why does this happen? I didn't know this was a thing.” So, on and so forth. Like, there's definitely some things that are fairly difficult to try and debug, which definitely helps having that enterprise-level solution.Corey: Well, that's the most valuable thing in any sort of operational experience where, okay, I can read the documentation and all the other things, and it tells me how it works. Great. The real value of whether I trust something in production is whether or not I know how it breaks where it's—Jason: Yeah.Corey: —okay—because the one thing you want to hear when you're calling someone up is, “Oh, yeah. We've seen this before. This is what you do to fix it.” The worst thing in the world is, “Oh, that's interesting. We've never seen that before.” Because then oh, dear Lord, we're off in the mists of trying to figure out what's going on here, while production is down.Jason: Yeah kind of like, “What is this database do, like, in terms of what do we do?” Like, I mean, this is what we store our Identity Graph in. This has the graph of people's information. If we're trying to do identity verification for transactions or anything, for any of our products, I mean, we need to be able to query this database. It needs to be up.We have a certain requirement in terms of uptime, where we want it at least, like, four nines of uptime. So, we also want a solution that, hey, even if it wants to break, don't break that bad. [laugh]. There's a difference between, “Oh, a node failed and okay, like, we're good in 10, 20 seconds,” versus, “Oh, node failed. You lost data. You need to start reloading your dataset, or you can't query this anymore.” [laugh]. There's a very large difference between those two.Corey: A little bit, yeah. That's also a great story to drive things across. Like, “Really? What is this going to cost us if we pay for the enterprise version? Great. Is it going to be more than some extortionately large number because if we're down for three hours in the course of a year, that's we owe our customers back for not being able to deliver, so it seems to me this is kind of a no-brainer for things like that.”Jason: Yeah, exactly. And, like, that's part of the reason—I mean, a lot of the things we do at Ekata, we usually go with enterprise-level for a lot of things we do. And it's really for that support factor in helping reduce any potential downtime for what we have because, well, if we don't consider ourselves comfortable or expert-level in that subject, I mean, then yeah, if it goes down, that's terrible for our customers. I mean, it's needed for literally every single query that comes through us.Corey: I did want to ask you, but you keep talking about, “The database” and, “The cluster.” That seems like you have a single database or a single cluster that winds up being responsible for all of this. That feels like the blast radius of that thing going down must be enormous. Have you done any research into breaking that out into smaller databases? What is it that's driven you toward this architectural pattern?Jason: Yeah, so for right now, so we have actually three regions were deployed into. We have a copy of it in us-west in AWS, we have one an eu-central-1, and we also have one, an ap-southeast-1. So, we have a complete copy of this database in three separate regions, as well as we're spread across all the available availability zones for that region. So, we try and be as multi-AZ as we can within a specific region. So, we have thought about breaking it down, but having high availability, having multiple replication factors, having also, you know, it stored in multiple data centers, provides us at least a good level of comfortability.Specifically, in our US cluster, we actually have two. We literally also—with a lot of the cost savings that we got, we actually have two. We have one that literally sits idle 24/7 that we just call our backup and our standby where it's ready to go at a moment's notice. Thankfully, we haven't had to use it since I want to say its creation about a year-and-a-half ago, but it sits there in that doomsday scenario: “Oh, my gosh, this cluster literally cannot function anymore. Something crazy catastrophic happened,” and we can basically hot swap back into another production-ready cluster as needed, if needed.Because the really important thing is that if we broke it up into two separate databases if one of them goes down, that could still fail your entire query. Because what if that's the database that held your address? We can still query you, but we're going to try and get your address and well, there, your traversal just died because you can no longer get that. So, even trying to break it up doesn't really help us too much. We can still fail the entire traversal query.Corey: Yeah, which makes an awful lot of sense. Again, to be clear, you've obviously put thought into this goes way beyond the me hearing something in passing and saying, “Hey, you considered this thing?” Let's be very clear here. That is the sign of a terrible junior consultant. “Well, it sounds like what you built sucked. Did you consider building something that didn't suck?” “Oh, thanks, Professor. Really appreciate your pointing that out.” It's one of those useful things.Jason: It's like, “Oh, wow, we've been doing this for, I don't know, many, many years.” It's like, “Oh, wow, yeah. I haven't thought about that one yet.” [laugh].Corey: So, it sounds like you're relatively happy with how Redis has worked out for you as the primary data store. If you were doing it all again from scratch, would you make the same technology selection there or would you go in a different direction?Jason: Yeah, I think I'd make the same decision. I mean, we've been using Redis on Flash for at this point three, maybe coming up to four years at this point. There's a reason we keep renewing our contract and just keep continuing with them is because, to us, it just fits our use case so well, and we very much choose to continue going with this direction in this technology.Corey: What would you have them change as far as feature enhancements and new options being enabled there? Because remember, asking them right now in front of an audience like this puts them in a situation where they cannot possibly refuse. Please, how would you improve Redis from where it is now?Jason: I like how you think. That's [laugh] a [fair way to 00:28:42] to describe it. There's a couple of things for optimizations that can always be done. And, like, specifically with, like, Redis on Flash, there's some issue we had with storing as binary keys that to my knowledge hasn't necessarily been completed yet that basically prevents us from storing as binary, which has some amount of benefit because well, binary keys require less memory to store. When you're talking about 4 billion keys, even if you're just saving 20 bytes of key, like you're talking about potentially hundreds of gigabytes of savings once you—Corey: It adds up with the [crosstalk 00:29:13].Jason: Yeah, it adds up pretty quick. [laugh]. So, that's probably one of the big things that we've been in contact with them about fixing that hasn't gotten there yet. The other thing is, like, there's a couple of, like, random… gotchas that we had to learn along the way. It does add a little bit of complexity in our loading process.Effectively, when you first write a value into the database it'll write to RAM, but then once it gets flushed to flash, the database effectively asks itself, “Does this value already exist in flash?” Because once it's first written, it's just written to RAM, it isn't written to backing flash. And if it says, “No it's not,” the database then does a write to write it into Flash and then evict it out of RAM. That sounds pretty innocent, but if it already exists in flash when you read it, it says, “Hey, I need to evict this does it already exist in Flash?” “Yep.” “Okay, just chuck it away. It already exists, we're good.”It sounds pretty nice, but this is where we accidentally halted our database is once we started putting a huge amount of load on the cluster, our general throughput on peak day is somewhere in the order of 160 to 200,000 Redis operations per second. So, you're starting to think of, hey, you might be evicting 100,000 values per second into Flash, you're talking about added 100,000 operate or write operations per second into your cluster, and that accidentally halted our database. So, the way we actually go around this is once we write our data store, we actually basically read the whole thing once because if you read every single key, you pretty much guarantee to cycle everything into Flash, so it doesn't have to do any of those writes. For right now, there is no option to basically say that, if I write—for our use case, we do very little writes except for upfront, so it'd be super nice for our use case, if we can say, “Hey, our write operations, no, I want you to actually do a full write-through to flash.” Because, you know, that would effectively cut our entire database prep in half. We no longer had to do that read to cycle everything through. Those are probably the two big things, and one of the biggest gotchas that we ran into [laugh] that maybe it isn't, so known.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more, where can they find you? And I will also theorize wildly, that if you're like basically every other company out there right now, you're probably hiring on your team, too.Jason: Yeah, I very much am hiring; I'm actually hiring quite a lot right now. [laugh]. So, they can reach me, my email is simply jason.frazier@ekata.com. I unfortunately, don't have a Twitter handle. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty sure most people have LinkedIn nowadays.But yeah, and also feel free to reach out if you're also interested in learning more or opportunities, like I said, I'm hiring quite extensively. I'm specifically the team that builds our actual product APIs that we offer to customers, so a lot of the sort of latency optimizations that we do usually are kind of through my team, in coordination with all the other teams, since we need to build a new API with this requirement. How do we get that requirement? [laugh]. Like, let's go start exploring.Corey: Excellent. I will, of course, throw a link to that in the [show notes 00:32:10] as well. I want to thank you for spending the time to speak with me today. I really do appreciate it.Jason: Yeah. I appreciate you having me on. It's been a good chat.Corey: Likewise. I'm sure we will cross paths in the future, especially as we stumble through the wide world of, you know, data stores in AWS, and this ecosystem keeps getting bigger, but somehow feels smaller all the time.Jason: Yeah, exactly. You know, we'll still be where we are hopefully, approving all of your transactions as they go through, make sure that you don't run into any friction.Corey: Thank you once again, for speaking to me, I really appreciate it.Jason: No problem. Thanks again for having me.Corey: Jason Frazier, Software Engineering Manager at Ekata. This has been a promoted episode brought to us by our friends at Redis. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, insulting comment telling me that Enterprise Redis is ridiculous because you could build it yourself on a Raspberry Pi in only eight short months.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

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About JasonJason is now the Managing Director at Redpoint Ventures.Links: GitHub: https://github.com/ @jasoncwarner: https://twitter.com/jasoncwarner GitHub: https://github.com/jasoncwarner Jasoncwarner/ama: https://github.com/jasoncwarner/ama TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate: is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards, while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other, which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at Honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability, it's more than just hipster monitoring.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Liquibase. If you're anything like me, you've screwed up the database part of a deployment so severely that you've been banned from touching every anything that remotely sounds like SQL, at at least three different companies. We've mostly got code deployments solved for, but when it comes to databases we basically rely on desperate hope, with a roll back plan of keeping our resumes up to date. It doesn't have to be that way. Meet Liquibase. It is both an open source project and a commercial offering. Liquibase lets you track, modify, and automate database schema changes across almost any database, with guardrails to ensure you'll still have a company left after you deploy the change. No matter where your database lives, Liquibase can help you solve your database deployment issues. Check them out today at liquibase.com. Offer does not apply to Route 53.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Jason Warner, the Chief Technology Officer at GifHub, although he pronounces it differently. Jason, welcome to the show.Jason: Thanks, Corey. Good to be here.Corey: So, GitHub—as you insist on pronouncing it—is one of those companies that's been around for a long time. In fact, I went to a training conducted by one of your early folks, Scott Chacon, who taught how Git works over the course of a couple of days, and honestly, I left more confused than I did when I entered. It's like, “Oh, this is super awful. Good thing I'll never need to know this because I'm not really a developer.” And I'm still not really a developer and I still don't really know how Git works, but here we are.And it's now over a decade later; you folks have been acquired by Microsoft, and you are sort of the one-stop-shop, from the de facto perspective of, “I'm going to go share some code with people on the internet. I'll use GitHub to do it.” Because, you know, copying and pasting and emailing Microsoft Word documents around isn't ideal.Jason: That is right. And I think that a bunch of things that you mentioned there, played into, you know, GitHub's early and sustained success. But my God, do you remember the old days when people had to email tar files around or drop them in weird spots?Corey: What the hell do you mean, by, “Old days?” It still blows my mind that the Linux kernel is managed by—they use Git, obviously. Linus Torvalds did write Git once upon a time—and it has the user interface you would expect for that. And the way that they collaborate is not through GitHub or anything like that. No, they use Git to generate patches, which they then email to the mailing list. Which sounds like I'm making it up, like, “Oh, well, yeah, tell another one, but maybe involve a fax machine this time.” But no, that is actually what they do.Jason: It blew my mind when I saw that, too, by the way. And you realize, too, that workflows are workflows, and people will build interesting workflows to solve their use case. Now, obviously, anyone that you would be talking to in 2021, if you walked in and said, “Yeah, install Git. Let's set up an email server and start mailing patches to each other and we're going to do it this way.” They would just kind of politely—or maybe impolitely—show you out of the room, and rightfully [laugh] so. But it works for one of the most important software projects in history: Linux.Corey: Yeah, and it works almost in spite of itself to some extent. You've come a long way as a company because initially, it was, “Oh, there's this amazing, decentralized version control system. How do we make it better? I know, we're going to take off the decentralized part of it and give it a central point that everything can go through.” And collaboratively, it works well, but I think that viewing GitHub as a system that is used to sell free Git repositories to people is rather dramatically missing the point. It feels like it's grown significantly beyond just code repository hosting. Tell me more about that.Jason: Absolutely. I remember talking to a bunch of folks right around when I was joining GitHub, and you know, there was still talk about GitHub as, you know, GitHub for lawyers, or GitHub for doctors, or what could you do in a different way? And you know, social coding as an aspect, and maybe turning into a social network with a resume. And all those things are true to a percentage standpoint. But what GitHub should be in the world is the world's most important software development platform, end-to-end software development platform.We obviously have grown a bunch since me joining in that way which we launched dependency management packages, Actions with built-in CI, we've got some deployment mechanisms, we got advanced security underneath it, we've Codespaces in beta and alpha on top of it now. But if you think about GitHub as, join, share, and see other people's code, that's evolution one. If you see it as world's largest, maybe most developed software development platform, that's evolution two, and in my mind, its natural place where it should be, given what it has done already in the world, is become the world's most important software company. I don't mean the most profitable. I just mean the most important.Corey: I would agree. I had a blog post that went up somewhat recently about the future of cloud being Microsoft's to lose. And it's not because Azure is the best cloud platform out there, with respect, and I don't need you to argue the point. It is very clearly not. It is not like other clouds, but I can see a path to where it could become far better than it is.But if I'm out there and I'm just learning how to write code—because I make terrible life choices—and I go to a boot camp or I follow a tutorial online or I take a course somewhere, I'm going to be writing code probably using VS Code, the open-source editor that you folks launched after the acquisition. And it was pretty clear that Atom wasn't quite where the world was going. Great. Then I'm going to host it on GitHub, which is a natural evolution. Then you take a look at things like GitHub Actions that build in CI/CD pipelines natively.All that's missing is a ‘Deploy to Azure' button that is the next logical step, and you're mostly there for an awful lot of use cases. But you can't add that button until Azure itself gets better. Done right, this has the potential to leave, effectively, every other cloud provider in the dust because no one can touch this.Jason: One hundred percent. I mean, the obvious thing that any other cloud should be looking at with us—or should have been before the acquisition, looking at us was, “Oh, no, they could jump over us. They could stop our funnel.” And I used internal metrics when I was talking to them about partnership that led to the sale, which was I showed them more about their running business than they knew about themselves. I can tell them where they were stacked-ranked against each other, based on the ingress and egress of all the data on GitHub, you know, and various reactions to that in those meetings was pretty astounding.And just with that data alone, it should tell you what GitHub would be capable of and what Azure would be capable of in the combination of those two things. I mean, you did mention the ‘Deploy to Azure' button; this has been a topic, obviously, pre and post-acquisition, which is, “When is that coming?” And it was the one hard rule I set during the acquisition was, there will be no ‘Deploy to Azure' button. Azure has to earn the right to get things deployed to, in my opinion. And I think that goes to what you're saying is, if we put a ‘Deploy to Azure' button on top of this and Azure is not ready for that, or is going to fail, ultimately, that looks bad for all of us. But if it earned the right and it gets better, and it becomes one of those, then, you know, people will choose it, and that is, to me, what we're after.Corey: You have to choose the moment because if you do it too soon, you'll set the entire initiative back five years. Do it too late, and you get leapfrogged. There's a golden window somewhere and finding it is going to be hard. And I think it's pretty clear that the other hyperscalers in this space are learning, or have learned, that the next 10 years of cloud or 15 years of cloud or whatever they want to call it, and the new customers that are going to come are not the same as the customers that have built the first half of the business. And they're trying to wrap their heads around that because a lot of where the growth is going to come from is established blue chips that are used to thinking in very enterprise terms.And people think I'm making fun of them when I say this, but Microsoft has 40 years' experience apologizing to enterprises for computer failures. And that is fundamentally what cloud is. It's about talking computers to business executives because as much as we talk about builders, that is not the person at an established company with an existing IT estate, who gets to determine where $50 million a year in cloud-spend is going to go.Jason: It's [laugh] very, [laugh] very true. I mean, we've entered a different spot with cloud computing in the bell curve of adoption, and if you think that they will choose the best technology every time, well, history of computing is littered with better technologies that have failed because the distribution was better on one side. As you mentioned, Microsoft has 40 years, and I wager that Microsoft has the best sales organizations and the best enterprise accounts and, you know, all that sort of stuff, blah, blah, blah, on that side of the world than anyone in the industry. They can sell to enterprises better than almost anyone in the industry. And the other hyperscalers—there's a reason why [TK 00:08:34] is running Google Cloud right now. And Amazon, classically, has been very, very bad assigned to the enterprises. They just happened to be the first mover.Corey: In the early days, it was easy. You'd have an Amazon salesperson roll up to a company, and the exec would say, “Great, why should we consider running things on AWS?” And the answer was, “Oh, I'm sorry, wrong conversation. Right now you have 80 different accounts scattered throughout your org. I'm just here to help you unify them, get some visibility into it, and possibly give you a discount along the way.” And it was a different conversation. Shadow IT was the sole driver of cloud adoption for a long time. That is no longer true. It has to go in the front door, and that is a fundamental shift in how you go to market.Jason: One hundred percent true, and it's why I think that Microsoft has been so successful with Azure, in the last, let's call it five years in that, is that the early adopters in the second wave are doing that; they're all enterprise IT, enterprise dev shops who are buying from the top down. Now, there is still the bottoms-up adoption that going to be happening, and obviously, bottom-up adoption will happen still going forward, but we've entered the phase where that's not the primary or sole mechanism I should say. The sole mechanism of buying in. We have tops-down selling still—or now.Corey: When Microsoft announced it was acquiring GitHub, there was a universal reaction of, “Oh, shit.” Because it's Microsoft; of course they're going to ruin GitHub. Is there a second option? No, unless they find a way to ruin it twice. And none of it came to pass.It is uniformly excellent, and there's a strong argument that could be made by folks who are unaware of what happened—I'm one of them, so maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong—that GitHub had a positive effect on Microsoft more than Microsoft had an effect on GitHub. I don't know if that's true or not, but I could believe it based upon what I've seen.Jason: Obviously, the skepticism was well deserved at the time of acquisition, let's just be honest with it, particularly given what Microsoft's history had been for about 15—well, 20 years before, previous to Satya joining. And I was one of those people in the late '90s who would write ‘M$' in various forums. I was 18 or 19 years old, and just got into—Corey: Oh, hating Microsoft was my entire personality.Jason: [laugh]. And it was, honestly, well-deserved, right? Like, they had anti-competitive practices and they did some nefarious things. And you know, I talked about Bill Gates as an example. Bill Gates is, I mean, I don't actually know how old he is, but I'm going to guess he's late '50s, early '60s, but he's basically in the redemption phase of his life for his early years.And Microsoft is making up for Ballmer years, and later Gates years, and things of that nature. So, it was well-deserved skepticism, and particularly for a mid-career to older-career crowd who have really grown to hate Microsoft over that time. But what I would say is, obviously, it's different under Satya, and Scott, and Amy Hood, and people like that. And all we really telling people is give us a chance on this one. And I mean, all of us. The people who were running GitHub at the time, including myself and, you know, let Scott and Satya prove that they are who they say they are.Corey: It's one of those things where there's nothing you could have said that would have changed the opinion of the world. It was, just wait and see. And I think we have. It's now, I daresay, gotten to a point where Microsoft announces that they're acquiring some other beloved company, then people, I think, would extend a lot more credit than they did back then.Jason: I have to give Microsoft a ton of credit, too, on this one for the way in which they handled acquisitions, like us and others. And the reason why I think it's been so successful is also the reason why I think so many others die post-acquisition, which is that Microsoft has basically—I'll say this, and I know I won't get fired because it feels like it's true. Microsoft is essentially a PE holding company at this point. It is acquired a whole bunch of companies and lets them run independent. You know, we got LinkedIn, you got Minecraft, Xbox is its own division, but it's effectively its own company inside of it.Azure is run that way. GitHub's got a CEO still. I call it the archipelago model. Microsoft's the landmass underneath the water that binds them all, and finance, and HR, and a couple of other things, but for the most part, we manifest our own product roadmap still. We're not told what to go do. And I think that's why it's successful. If we're going to functionally integrate GitHub into Microsoft, it would have died very quickly.Corey: You clearly don't mix the streams. I mean, your gaming division writes a lot of interesting games and a lot of interesting gaming platforms. And, like, one of the most popularly played puzzle games in the world is a Microsoft property, and that is, of course, logging into a Microsoft account correctly. And I keep waiting for that to bleed into GitHub, but it doesn't. GitHub is a terrific SAML provider, it is stupidly easy to log in, it's great.And at some level, I wish that would bleed into other aspects, but you can't have everything. Tell me what it's like to go through an acquisition from a C-level position. Because having been through an acquisition before, the process looks a lot like a surprise all-hands meeting one day after the markets close and, “Listen up, idiots.” And [laugh] there we go. I have to imagine with someone in your position, it's a slightly different experience.Jason: It's definitely very different for all C-levels. And then myself in particular, as the primary driver of the acquisition, obviously, I had very privy inside knowledge. And so, from my position, I knew what was happening the entire time as the primary driver from the inside. But even so, it's still disconcerting to a degree because, in many ways, you don't think you're going to be able to pull it off. Like, you know, I remember the months, and the nights, and the weekends, and the weekend nights, and all the weeks I spent on the road trying to get all the puzzle pieces lined up for the Googles, or the Microsofts, or the eventually AWSs, the VMwares, the IBMs of the world to take seriously, just from a product perspective, which I knew would lead to, obviously, acquisition conversations.And then, once you get the call from the board that says, “It's done. We signed the letter of intent,” you basically are like, “Oh. Oh, crap. Okay, hang on a second. I actually didn't—I don't actually believe in my heart of hearts that I was going to actually be able to pull that off.” And so now, you probably didn't plan out—or at least I didn't. I was like, “Shit if we actually pulled this off what comes next?” And I didn't have that what comes next, which is odd for me. I usually have some sort of a loose plan in place. I just didn't. I wasn't really ready for that.Corey: It's got to be a weird discussion, too, when you start looking at shopping a company around to be sold, especially one at the scale of GitHub because you're at such a high level of visibility in the entire environment, where—it's the idea of would anyone even want to buy us? And then, duh, of course they would. And you look the hyperscalers, for example. You have, well, you could sell it to Amazon and they could pull another Cloud9, where they shove it behind the IAM login process, fail to update the thing meaningfully over a period of years, to a point where even now, a significant portion of the audience listening to this is going to wonder if it's a service I just made up; it sounds like something they might have done, but Cloud9 sounds way too inspired for an AWS service name, so maybe not. And—which it is real. You could go sell to Google, which is going to be awesome until some executive changes roles, and then it's going to be deprecated in short order.Or then there's Microsoft, which is the wild card. It's, well, it's Microsoft. I mean, people aren't really excited about it, but okay. And I don't think that's true anymore at all. And maybe I'm not being fair to all the hyperscalers there. I mean, I'm basically insulting everyone, which is kind of my shtick, but it really does seem that Microsoft was far and away the best acquirer possible because it has been transformative. My question—if you can answer it—is, how the hell did you see that beforehand? It's only obvious—even knowing what I know now—in hindsight.Jason: So, Microsoft was a target for me going into it, and the reason why was I thought that they were in the best overall position. There was enough humility on one side, enough hubris on another, enough market awareness, probably, organizational awareness to, kind of, pull it off. There's too much hubris on one side of the fence with some of the other acquirers, and they would try to hug us too deeply, or integrate us too quickly, or things of that nature. And I think it just takes a deep understanding of who the players are and who the egos involved are. And I think egos has actually played more into acquisitions than people will ever admit.What I saw was, based on the initial partnership conversations, we were developing something that we never launched before GitHub Actions called GitHub Launch. The primary reason we were building that was GitHub launches a five, six-year journey, and it's got many, many different phases, which will keep launching over the next couple of years. The first one we never brought to market was a partnership between all of the clouds. And it served a specific purpose. One, it allowed me to get into the room with the highest level executive at every one of those companies.Two allow me to have a deep economic conversation with them at a partnership level. And three, it allowed me to show those executives that we knew what GitHub's value was in the world, and really flip the tables around and say, “We know what we're worth. We know what our value is in the world. We know where we sit from a product influence perspective. If you want to be part of this, we'll allow it.” Not, “Please come work with us.” It was more of a, “We'll allow you to be part of this conversation.”And I wanted to see how people reacted to that. You know how Amazon reacted that told me a lot about how they view the world, and how Google reacted to that showed me exactly where they viewed it. And I remember walking out of the Google conversation, feeling a very specific way based upon the reaction. And you know, when I talked to Microsoft, got a very different feel and it, kind of, confirmed a couple of things. And then when I had my very first conversation with Nat, who have known for a while before that, I realized, like, yep, okay, this is the one. Drive hard at this.Corey: If you could do it all again, would you change anything meaningful about how you approached it?Jason: You know, I think I got very lucky doing a couple of things. I was very intentional aspects of—you know, I tried to serendipitously show up, where Diane Greene was at one point, or a serendipitously show up where Satya or Scott Guthrie was, and obviously, that was all intentional. But I never sold a company like this before. The partnership and the product that we were building was obviously very intentional. I think if I were to go through the sale, again, I would probably have tried to orchestrate at least one more year independent.And it's not—for no other reason alone than what we were building was very special. And the world sees it now, but I wish that the people who built it inside GitHub got full credit for it. And I think that part of that credit gets diffused to saying, “Microsoft fixed GitHub,” and I want the people inside GitHub to have gotten a lot more of that credit. Microsoft obviously made us much better, but that was not specific to Microsoft because we're run independent; it was bringing Nat in and helping us that got a lot of that stuff done. Nat did a great job at those things. But a lot of that was already in play with some incredible engineers, product people, and in particular our sales team and finance team inside of GitHub already.Corey: When you take a look across the landscape of the fact that GitHub has become for a certain subset of relatively sad types of which I'm definitely one a household name, what do you think the biggest misconception about the company is?Jason: I still think the biggest misconception of us is that we're a code host. Every time I talk to the RedMonk folks, they get what we're building and what we're trying to be in the world, but people still think of us as SourceForge-plus-plus in many ways. And obviously, that may have been our past, but that's definitely not where we are now and, for certain, obviously, not our future. So, I think that's one. I do think that people still, to this day, think of GitLab as one of our main competitors, and I never have ever saw GitLab as a competitor.I think it just has an unfortunate naming convention, as well as, you know, PRs, and MRs, and Git and all that sort of stuff. But we take very different views of the world in how we're approaching things. And then maybe the last thing would be that what we're doing at the scale that we're doing it as is kind of easy. When I think that—you know, when you're serving almost every developer in the world at this point at the scale at which we're doing it, we've got some scale issues that people just probably will never thankfully encounter for themselves.Corey: Well, everyone on Hacker News believes that they will, as soon as they put up their hello world blog, so Kubernetes is the only way to do anything now. So, I'm told.Jason: It's quite interesting because I think that everything breaks at scale, as we all know about from the [hyperclouds 00:20:54]. As we've learned, things are breaking every day. And I think that when you get advice, either operational, technical, or managerial advice from people who are running 10 person, 50 person companies, or X-size sophisticated systems, it doesn't apply. But for whatever reason, I don't know why, but people feel inclined to give that feedback to engineers at GitHub directly, saying, “If you just…” and in many [laugh] ways, you're just like, “Well, I think that we'll have that conversation at some point, you know, but we got a 100-plus-million repos and 65 million developers using us on a daily basis.” It's a very different world.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: One of the things that I really appreciate personally because, you know, when you see something that company does, it's nice to just thank people from time to time, so I'm inviting the entire company on the podcast one by one, at some point, to wind up thanking them all individually for it, but Codespaces is one of those things that I think is transformative for me. Back in the before times, and ideally the after times, whenever I travel the only computer I brought with me for a few years now has been an iPad or an iPad Pro. And trying to get an editor on that thing that works reasonably well has been like pulling teeth, my default answer has just been to remote into an EC2 instance and use vim like I have for the last 20 years. But Code is really winning me over. Having to play with code-server and other things like that for a while was obnoxious, fraught, and difficult.And finally, we got to a point where Codespaces was launched, and oh, it works on an iPad. This is actually really slick. I like this. And it was the thing that I was looking for but was trying to have to monkey patch together myself from components. And that's transformative.It feels like we're going back in many ways—at least in my model—to the days of thin clients where all the heavy lifting was done centrally on big computers, and the things that sat on people's desks were mostly just, effectively, relatively simple keyboard, mouse, screen. Things go back and forth and I'm sure we'll have super powerful things in our pockets again soon, but I like the interaction model; it solves for an awful lot of problems and that's one of the things that, at least from my perspective, that the world may not have fully wrapped it head around yet.Jason: Great observation. Before the acquisition, we were experimenting with a couple of different editors, that we wanted to do online editors. And same thing; we were experimenting with some Action CI stuff, and it just didn't make sense for us to build it; it would have been too hard, there have been too many moving parts, and then post-acquisition, we really love what the VS Code team was building over there, and you could see it; it was just going to work. And we had this one person, well, not one person. There was a bunch of people inside of GitHub that do this, but this one person at the highest level who's just obsessed with make this work on my iPad.He's the head of product design, his name's Max, he's an ex-Heroku person as well, and he was just obsessed with it. And he said, “If it works on my iPad, it's got a chance to succeed. If it doesn't work on my iPad, I'm never going to use this thing.” And the first time we booted up Codespaces—or he booted it up on the weekend, working on it. Came back and just, “Yep. This is going to be the one. Now, we got to work on those, the sanding the stones and those fine edges and stuff.”But it really does unlock a lot for us because, you know, again, we want to become the software developer platform for everyone in the world, you got to go end-to-end, and you got to have an opinion on certain things, and you got to enable certain functionality. You mentioned Cloud9 before with Amazon. It was one of the most confounding acquisitions I've ever seen. When they bought it I was at Heroku and I thought, I thought at that moment that Amazon was going to own the next 50 years of development because I thought they saw the same thing a lot of us at Heroku saw, and with the Cloud9 acquisition, what they were going to do was just going to stomp on all of us in the space. And then when it didn't happen, we just thought maybe, you know, okay, maybe something else changed. Maybe we were wrong about that assumption, too. But I think that we're on to it still. I think that it just has to do with the way you approach it and, you know, how you design it.Corey: Sorry, you just said something that took me aback for a second. Wait, you mean software can be designed? It's not this emergent property of people building thing on top of thing? There's actually a grand plan behind all these things? I've only half kidding, on some level, where if you take a look at any modern software product that is deployed into the world, it seems impossible for even small aspects of it to have been part of the initial founding design. But as a counterargument, it would almost have to be for a lot of these things. How do you square that circle?Jason: I think you have to, just like anything on spectrums and timelines, you have to flex at various times for various things. So, if you think about it from a very, very simple construct of time, you just have to think of time horizons. So, I have an opinion about what GitHub should look like in 10 years—vaguely—in five years much more firmly, and then very, very concretely, for the next year, as an example. So, a lot of the features you might see might be more emergent, but a lot of long-term work togetherness has to be loosely tied together with some string. Now, that string will be tightened over time, but it loosely has to see its way through.And the way I describe this to folks is that you don't wake up one day and say, “I'm going on vacation,” and literally just throw a finger on the map. You have to have some sort of vague idea, like, “Hey, I want to have a beach vacation,” or, “I want to have an adventure vacation.” And then you can kind of pick a destination and say, “I'm going to Hawaii,” or, “I'm going to San Diego.” And if you're standing on the East Coast knowing you're going to San Diego, you basically know that you have to just start marching west, or driving west, or whatever. And now, you don't have to have the route mapped out just yet, but you know that hey, if I'm going due southeast, I'm off course, so how do I reorient to make sure I'm still going in the right direction?That's basically what I think about as high-level, as scale design. And it's not unfair to say that a lot of the stuff is not designed today. Amazon is very famous for not designing anything; they design a singular service. But there's no cohesiveness to what Amazon—or AWS specifically, I should say, in this case—has put out there. And maybe that's not what their strategy is. I don't know the internal workings of them, but it's very clear.Corey: Well, oh, yeah. When I first started working in the AWS space and looking through the console, it like, “What is this? It feels like every service's interface was designed by a different team, but that would—oh…” and then the light bulb went on. Yeah. You ship your culture.Jason: It's exactly it. It works for them, but I think if you're going to try to do something very, very, very different, you know, it's going to look a certain way. So, intentional design, I think, is part of what makes GitHub and other products like it special. And if you think about it, you have to have an end-to-end view, and then you can build verticals up and down inside of that. But it has to work on the horizontal, still.And then if you hire really smart people to build the verticals, you get those done. So, a good example of this is that I have a very strong opinion about the horizontal workflow nature of GitHub should look like in five years. I have a very loose opinion about what the matrix build system of Actions looks like. Because we have very, very smart people who are working on that specific problem, so long as that maps back and snaps into the horizontal workflows. And that's how it can work together.Corey: So, when you look at someone who is, I don't know, the CTO of a wildly renowned company that is basically still catering primarily to developers slash engineers, but let's be honest, geeks, it's natural to think that, oh, they must be the alpha geek. That doesn't really apply to you from everything I've been able to uncover. Am I just not digging deeply enough, or are you in fact, a terrible nerd?Jason: [laugh]. I am. I'm a terrible nerd. I am a very terrible nerd. I feel very lucky, obviously, to be in the position I'm in right now, in many ways, and people call me up and exactly that.It's like, “Hey, you must be king of the geeks.” And I'm like, “[laugh], ah, funny story here.” But um, you know, I joke that I'm not actually supposed to be in tech in first place, the way I grew up, and where I did, and how, I wasn't supposed to be here. And so, it's serendipitous that I am in tech. And then turns out I had an aptitude for distributed systems, and complex, you know, human systems as well. But when people dig in and they start talking about topics, I'm confounded. I never liked Star Wars, I never like Star Trek. Never got an anime, board games, I don't play video games—Corey: You are going to get letters.Jason: [laugh]. When I was at Canonical, oh, my goodness, the stuff I tried to hide about myself, and, like, learn, like, so who's this Boba Fett dude. And, you know, at some point, obviously, you don't have to pretend anymore, but you know, people still assume a bunch stuff because, quote, “Nerd” quote, “Geek” culture type of stuff. But you know, some interesting facts that people end up being surprised by with me is that, you know, I was very short in high school and I grew in college, so I decided that I wanted to take advantage of my newfound height and athleticism as you grow into your body. So, I started playing basketball, but I obsessed over it.I love getting good at something. So, I'd wake up at four o'clock in the morning, and go shoot baskets, and do drills for hours. Well, I got really good at it one point, and I end up playing in a Pro-Am basketball game with ex-NBA Harlem Globetrotter legends. And that's just not something you hear about in most engineering circles. You might expect that out of a salesperson or a marketing person who played pro ball—or amateur ball somewhere, or college ball or something like that. But not someone who ends up running the most important software company—from a technical perspective—in the world.Corey: It's weird. People counterintuitively think that, on some level, that code is the answer to all things. And that, oh, all this human interaction stuff, all the discussions, all the systems thinking, you have to fit a certain profile to do that, and anyone outside of that is, eh, they're not as valuable. They can get ignored. And we see that manifesting itself in different ways.And even if we take a look at people whose profess otherwise, we take a look at folks who are fresh out of a boot camp and don't understand much about the business world yet; they have transformed their lives—maybe they're fresh out of college, maybe didn't even go to college—and 18 weeks later, they are signing up for six-figure jobs. Meanwhile, you take a look at virtually any other business function, in order to have a relatively comparable degree of earning potential, it takes years of experience and being very focused on a whole bunch of other things. There's a massive distortion around technical roles, and that's a strange and difficult thing to wrap my head around. But as you're talking about it, it goes both ways, too. It's the idea of, “Oh, I'll become technical than branch into other things.” It sounded like you started off instead with a non-technical direction and then sort of adopted that from other sides. Is that right, or am I misremembering exactly how the story unfolds?Jason: No, that's about right. People say, “Hey, when did I start programming?” And it's very in vogue, I think, for a lot of people to say, “I started programming at three years old,” or five years old, or whatever, and got my first computer. I literally didn't get my first computer until I was 18-years-old. And I started programming when I got to a high school co-op with IBM at 17.It was Lotus Notes programming at the time. Had no exposure to it before. What I did, though, in college was IBM told me at the time, they said, “If you get a computer science degree will guarantee you a job.” Which for a kid who grew up the way I grew up, that is manna from heaven type of deal. Like, “You'll guarantee me a job inside where don't have to dig ditches all day or lay asphalt? Oh, my goodness. What's computer science? I'll go figure it out.”And when I got to school, what I realized was I was really far behind. Everyone was that ubergeek type of thing. So, what I did is I tried to hack the system, and what I said was, “What is a topic that nobody else has an advantage on from me?” And so I basically picked the internet because the internet was so new in the mid-'90s that most people were still not fully up to speed on it. And then the underpinnings in the internet, which basically become distributed systems, that's where I started to focus.And because no one had a real advantage, I just, you know, could catch up pretty quickly. But once I got into computers, it turned out that I was probably a very average developer, maybe even below average, but it was the system's thinking that I stood out on. And you know, large-scale distributed systems or architectures were very good for me. And then, you know, that applies not, like, directly, but it applies decently well to human systems. It's just, you know, different types of inputs and outputs. But if you think about organizations at scale, they're barely just really, really, really complex and kind of irrational distributed systems.Corey: Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more about who you are, what you're up to, how you think about the world, where can they find you?Jason: Twitter's probably the best place at this point. Just @jasoncwarner on Twitter. I'm very unimaginative. My name is my GitHub handle. It's my Twitter username. And that's the best place that I, kind of, interact with folks these days. I do an AMA on GitHub. So, if you ever want to ask me anything, just kind of go to jasoncwarner/ama on GitHub and drop a question in one of the issues and I'll get to answering that. Yeah, those are the best spots.Corey: And we will, of course, include links to those things in the [show notes 00:33:52]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Jason: Thanks, Corey. It's been fun.Corey: Jason Warner, Chief Technology Officer at GitHub. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review in your podcast platform of choice anyway, along with a comment that includes a patch.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

About JasonJason Yee is Director of Advocacy at Gremlin where he helps companies build more resilient systems by learning from how they fail. He also leads the internal Chaos Engineering practices to make Gremlin more reliable. Previously, he worked at Datadog, O'Reilly Media, and MongoDB. His pandemic-coping activities include drinking whiskey, cooking everything in a waffle iron, and making craft chocolate.Links: Break Things On Purpose podcast: https://www.gremlin.com/podcast/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/gitbisect TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored by ExtraHop. ExtraHop provides threat detection and response for the Enterprise (not the starship). On-prem security doesn't translate well to cloud or multi-cloud environments, and that's not even counting IoT. ExtraHop automatically discovers everything inside the perimeter, including your cloud workloads and IoT devices, detects these threats up to 35 percent faster, and helps you act immediately. Ask for a free trial of detection and response for AWS today at extrahop.com/trial.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: Jason, thanks for joining me.Jason: Thanks for having me, Corey.Corey: So, you're one of those people that we've always passed at conferences and other events, sort of like ships in the night. We hang out in group settings, but strangely, for whatever reason, despite traveling in the same circles for years now, we've never really sat down had an in-depth conversation with each other to the point where I feel like both of us are sort of wondering on some level, “Does he just not like me?” It's been one of those items for me of, I want to catch up with Jason at some point and learn what makes him tick. And then pandemic happened. Well, no more. Thank you for talking to me.Jason: Yeah. And again, thanks for having me. I've always felt the same way. We're always at these speaker dinners, or just hanging out with friends, and for some reason, I'm, like, at one end of the table, and you're at the other. And we've just never had this opportunity.Corey: Exactly. Because you actually do a lot of good in the community, and I'm usually at the kids table. Which is, frankly, what happens, and honestly, it's the right call. But you and I, I guess, are aligned in a few weird and interesting ways. And—well, let's talk about what you do. You're the Director of Advocacy at Gremlin. What is Gremlin, first off, and then what is a Director of Advocacy really do?Jason: So, Gremlin is a chaos engineering platform, or a reliability platform as we're trying to sell it now. Because we started out doing chaos engineering, so some of the folks that were doing chaos engineering back at Netflix and back at Amazon, decided, most people aren't Netflix, most people aren't Amazon; let's build something that everybody can use. So, Kolton and Forni, our founders, got together, they started this up. And the idea is really, how can we help people make things more reliable? And obviously, chaos engineering is one of those ways, so that's what they started off with.And we've got a platform that really just makes that easy and safe to do. So, the second question about what is Director of Advocacy? I know you like to make fun of AWS naming, and I feel like it is sort of a weird, nonsense name because it doesn't actually explain anything. But essentially, it's developer relations. So, I have the task of talking to all sorts of folks who aren't customers—really, just anybody in tech—about chaos engineering and why they should be doing it, and how to make applications and systems more reliable.And then, aside from that, I also get to interact with our customers and help them out. So, I'm a combination of customer success or success engineer slash support slash the advocate side is advocating for their needs within the organization. So, when they make a product request, I pass that on, see what we can do about that. So, it's sort of a mishmash of all these different roles.Corey: I want to draw a bit of a parallel that DevRel slash advocacy slash evangelism universe to the sysadmin world where then we started calling ourselves DevOps and that led to an enormous schism around is DevOps a job title or not? “No, but it pays a lot better, so yes.” Then SRE. “Well, you're not real, SRE,” and the rest. It comes down to quibbling over definition of terms instead of, you know, doing work. And I feel like, on some level, the whole DevRel space has, in some respects, gotten twisted around something that resembles the same axle. Is that unfair?Jason: No, that's absolutely correct. There is that question of what is DevRel? How do you define it? And part of that is how do I justify my job? And on top of that, how did—at least pre-pandemic, how do I justify the company spending tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, not only for my salary but to fly me around the world to get on stage and say things.Corey: Right. And it looks from a distance, an awful lot like, okay, you cost as much as an engineer, you don't write any code to make what we do any better. Your expense budget is about the same as your salary in some cases, and then you travel far away to what looks like a giant party to hang out with your friends. And you get on stage and say, “I work at company X. Thanks. They're great. Now, for the next 45 minutes, let's talk about the right standing desk for you.” And it becomes a very difficult sell internally. And for a group that prides itself on advocating for its company. They don't often seem to do as good of a job advocating for themselves, internally.Jason: Absolutely. There's always the discussion of KPIs. How do we measure the impact of what developer evangelism, DevRel does? And it's a hard thing, partly because every company is a little bit different. Because nobody's really defined this, DevRel often is very fluid and just fills in the cracks of whatever a company needs.So, for some companies that might be doing support, right? I've heard people being called DevRel, and they literally are just on forums all day answering questions, or writing documentation, or speaking. So, it's really just this nebulous thing of whatever a company needs.Corey: It becomes almost this weird expression, in some respects, of marketing. Of course, a lot of DevRel folks will scramble at the objection, “Oh, we are not in marketing.” And that's always said with a very sneering tone towards marketing because those people are terrible. I argue that marketing is, A) wildly misunderstood, B) incredibly valuable, and C) where DevRel in many respects finds its spiritual home because it's very hard to tie your marketing budget as a company to definable results and do attribution effectively, but there's clear value to the company in things that can't necessarily be measured, or at least not without a heck of a lot of work. That is the piece, in many respects, the DevRel is missing. But the first thing that they want to make clear is that we don't work for marketing. It's a very weird feeling.Jason: It's very weird because as I explain that DevRel often is filling in the cracks and is very fluid, that's because my personal perspective of DevRel is inclusive. I try to get involved in as many teams as I can, so I'm constantly working with engineering, and with marketing, and with customer success, and really everybody. And then on the flip side, you have people that define it by what it's not. I'm not marketing, I'm not this. And you end up cutting yourself off.Corey: And neither are you an accountant, but I didn't ask if you were, so yeah.Jason: But at the same time, you're not an accountant, but you should have some sort of notion of what the finances of the company are because that gives you some sort of indication on whether you're going to get laid off, for one, but also just for the success of the company. And I think maybe it's just the engineering mindset that I've had from being an engineer of you take everything that and you try to learn everything that you can and put it together. And so, for me, that comes from having experience working in marketing, having experience working in engineering; how can I put these things that I know together to solve a problem? So, rather than saying, “I'm not marketing,” I'm going to ignore that because as you mentioned, marketing's super valuable, especially the way that they've done data-driven marketing now. It used to be like madmen days, you'd throw up a billboard, and who knows if it works, but you paid a bunch of money for it. And now they're so data-driven, and everything's tracked. And, yeah, you may not be able to directly connect a few things, but you get a much better sense of where your value is, and where your time should be spent.Corey: Absolutely. And you can get—I don't know—the 80% of the way there, and then the last 20% will drive you mad, so at some point, you just shrug, give up, and that's okay. Similar in many respects to an AWS bill. It just becomes such a weird process to explore. And from a certain lens, when you have those cross-cutting functional types who are doing DevRel, they start to sound almost enthusiastic amateurs in the various disciplines that they bring together.“Yes, I'm an engineer, but not as deep on the engineering side, as some of my colleagues who do engineering 40 hours a week and then some.” “Oh, we're part of product.” But strangely, to work in product you usually have significant experience and training in how to conduct user experience studies and user interviews, whereas an awful lot of the DevRel input back to product is ‘word on the street style' stuff.Jason: Yeah. And both are extremely valuable. It's obviously very valuable to have that process of doing user studies and actually getting that hard data, but as we all know, that word on the street and what's the general vibe of folks at a conference or folks at a meetup really informs things that usually doesn't get asked in those formal user studies.Corey: Completely. And telling stories from my own world, back when I was, you know, having a real job and able to be fired by a whole bunch of different people—and was—there was the constant justification story of why should you go to that conference and speak? Why would we spend that money? Why shouldn't it just be a personal thing that you take vacation for? Now that I own the company, it's a different story because I know that when I go out and participate in the community, good things happen, but I don't have the need anymore to justify it, other than to myself and possibly to my business partner.There are very real stories that I've looked at here where I go to a conference, I start talking to someone, we keep in touch, they wind up changing companies, we continue to talk, suddenly, they have an AWS bill problem, and now they become a customer. Yeah, it turns out that's super hard to predict when you're looking at flight prices to go to that conference in the first place. And there are many other conferences that nothing came out of it, I think, but you never really know.Jason: Yeah. One of the nice things about my job and one of the reasons that I joined Gremlin was the idea that chaos engineering is still pretty new. And so in my past experience with DevRel, it very much was your exact experience; how has what you said on stage or the introduction of our brand to an audience made an impact? And since chaos engineering has been so new, I've gotten to take a little bit of a step back from that. Obviously, I want people to get Gremlin or to try Gremlin, but even if folks just try chaos engineering and have a better understanding of it, that's a big goal of my job. That means that I win if you try chaos engineering, even if that's with an open-source tool. So, that's one of the reasons that I'm super happy about where I'm at right now in terms of DevRel is, I get to be DevRel for an entire practice, rather than just a company.Corey: And, on some level, you get to define what success and failure looks like among your team. But turn it around for a second; how do you wind up articulating the value and story of what you do to the larger business? Because I've seen the approach if you can't measure DevRel that way—regardless of what that way is—and it's always this, don't ask us for metrics. Don't ask us to really, functionally, be accountable for much. And from a business strategic point of view, where you're not deeply involved with aspects of what that leads to, “Okay, so it rounds to zero, and wow, I'm spending an awful lot of money on something that doesn't really add any value. I could spend that money on things that do instead.” And then you see a bunch of negative things happen. Like, as soon as there's a layoff or a downturn, that entire group winds up getting decimated in some cases, even when, in reality, that's the thing that should be invested in the most.Jason: Absolutely, yeah. One of the things that I've always loved is people talk about metrics. And yes, we definitely get that from the marketing side. And so I do have metrics on things like how many workshops we run. And those people are obviously, we capture those leads, they go through the marketing funnel, et cetera, et cetera.But then there's the idea of how many engineers out there have those same metrics? We always complain about you shouldn't count the number of lines of code because that's stupid. You shouldn't count all these other things. But generally, most engineering teams are working off of quarterly OKRs or some sort of time period, what those goals are and the product that they're going to ship. And so I've tried to adopt the same thing in every DevRel organization that I've been in, is what are the high-level goals?And if you can get leadership to buy off on those, for example, we're currently working on an online learning platform. We don't have tight metrics about how many people should be registered and complete the course and be certified yadda, yadda, but we have a good sense that if we build this, it's going to be very beneficial in a number of ways. And leadership agrees, and they've bought off on that, and they've signed their names to it. And so for us, what does success look like in terms of this is actually implementing that and shipping it.Corey: It's a really strange and really powerful thing, but you take a look at so many different companies who have done well and companies that haven't done well, and the way that they engage not just with the ecosystem, but with the community specifically, in many cases seems to be the path that it follows. I mean, not to pick on them unnecessarily, but Chef had a wonderful community; they engaged absolutely flawlessly, from what I could tell, even when I didn't agree with people or particularly like them in some cases, the people who worked at Chef almost demanded respect, and it was pretty clear, even as someone who didn't use it myself, that they were a force to be reckoned with. And then they wind up effectively losing a lot of the people that made it special, the community moved on, they sold it to a company no one had ever heard of, and now it's one of those, oof, they deserved a better end. Maybe that's unfair, but that is the perception.Jason: Yeah, I would say the same thing sort of happened with Puppet, the idea that they built a nice community, and back to my point of, like, you have a project, you work on shipping that, you don't really track those numbers. That's what I saw from both communities Chef and Puppet is they had these strong communities, they were doing things, and the goal was the community. And I don't know—I haven't talked to Nathan, I haven't talked to folks at Puppet, but I suspect that they weren't simply about how many people—like, what's the total number of people that we would say are in our community? There was a value on, we want to do this thing and we have a sense of the quality of the community, and how much people just are engaged, and interested, and want to help each other.Corey: The piece that also gets lost as well is companies are out there to turn a profit. And building a vibrant open-source community who loves your open-source offering but aren't in a position to either champion or purchase the thing is often viewed as a complete waste of time by the business. So, they in turn, then pivot business models and do things that insult or alienate the community, and suddenly are perplexed by the massive groundswell of negative publicity they get, of people actively advocating that companies not use them. And their position is somewhat understandable in a form of, “What the hell is this? You weren't spending money on us before. Now, you're still not spending money on us, but you hate us. What gives?” Community is a weird thing to wrap your arms around.Jason: Absolutely. I would say it's hard to wrap your arms around it when you're not valuing the relationship. It's like any relationship where you have ulterior motives. If you can't actually connect with people, it's never going to go right.Corey: No. And it also can't be self-serving, or seem to be self-serving—spoiler, the best way to make sure you're not perceived a certain way is to not actually be that way—we take a look at Last Week in AWS, my newsletter, it is explicitly aimed at people who want to keep up with what's going on in the world of AWS, which is fair. It is not aimed at people who have a big AWS bill and don't know what to do about it. And sure I reference periodically in that newsletter what I do, but it's not a sales piece. It's not every week hammering home, buy whatever it is I'm selling because that's how you alienate and lose the audience.I've always felt that by being top-of-mind for the problem and reminding people I exist every week with something that's useful and ideally a bit funny, then, when they have that expensive problem, they'll think of me. That was my theory four years ago, and I'm still here, so apparently, it wasn't completely off base.Jason: Yeah, well, that works, right, because nobody wants to subscribe to a newsletter to hear about the service. If they knew they needed your service, they would just buy your service. So, what's the value of the newsletter? What's the value that you're offering to people? And that is, well, the fact that there's so much freaking news about AWS every week that it does require a newsletter.Similarly for me, what's the value? Well, if people knew that they needed Gremlin, they would just come talk to me. But they don't. They were concerned about the needs that they have, about how do I build a more reliable application, “My stuff's always breaking. I'm having too many incidents. I've done everything that I can think of. What's next.” So, it's just offering that.Corey: If your mean time to WTF for a security alert is more than a minute, it's time to look at Lacework. Lacework will help you get your security act together for everything from compliance service configurations to container app relationships, all without the need for PhDs in AWS to write the rules. If you're building a secure business on AWS with compliance requirements, you don't really have time to choose between antivirus or firewall companies to help you secure your stack. That's why Lacework is built from the ground up for the Cloud: low effort, high visibility and detection. To learn more, visit lacework.com.Corey: And let's be very clear here, you have a much harder challenge than I do. Because it turns out that you don't need to be deep into the weeds of corporate finance, to understand the concept of wasting money on the AWS bill might not be the best thing in the world. Once you get more into the nuances, you start to realize, “Oh, being able to predict the AWS bill sounds super awesome, too.” But none of those are a particularly heavy lift, whereas, “Wow, your site is crappy and falls over a lot. Have you considered breaking it on purpose?” Sounds deranged the first time someone hears it.Jason: Absolutely, yeah. That's the number one thing that I hear all the time is—and people joke about it. I don't need chaos engineering; I do regular deploys.Corey: That sounds almost like someone was sitting in a blameless post mortem and got carried away trying to keep it blameless because otherwise, it was going to be their fault, and accidentally invented entire field.Jason: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's definitely blameless if everybody is causing things to break; then we all share the blame. It is a funny thing. It's a tricky thing to sell the people and I think it's tricky because we have these misconceptions about what that actually means, the idea of breaking things on purpose. And trying to move away from that because the breaking really isn't the goal.And oftentimes, they're not actually even breaking things; you're stressing them out or you're simulating things, so nothing's really broken. But once you start thinking of it as that idea of I'm going to test my assumptions, right? I think that things work this way, but I don't know, I'm not super confident that it actually will do that. And we do that all the time when we're developing applications or infrastructure. I set things up, I'm pretty sure that it's going to work a certain way.Documentation says that this app works this way. Does it actually do that? Well, I can either find out when it doesn't do that at some random point, or I can actually try to force it to act in that way, or to encounter that bad environment that I'm a little suspect about. And so we do this all the time with other things. And oftentimes, we'll do this just mentally as, “What would happen if—” and you kind of play it out in your mind.And that's actually a great way to start with chaos engineering, rather than actually doing it, just that mental game. “What do you think would happen if this goes wrong?” Play that out in your head? Cool. Once you're comfortable with that you're like, I think this is what my next steps would be. I'm pretty sure there's documentation here, or I've gone and checked and assured that there's docs, or run books, or whatever, why not give it a try?Corey: It's one of those areas where what have you got to lose? I mean, as you just said, your site breaks all the time anyway, before you even touch it's stability, what happens if the database just suddenly increases latency through the roof? What happens if suddenly all of us-east-1 is hard down? In many cases the answer is, we don't really care about our website anymore because the world is not going to care about the internet not working that day, in the context of what we do. In other shops, yeah, that matters, and we kind of still need the power grid to work.So, there's a definite question of what failure modes are worth planning for and what aren't, but even going through that exercise is fantastic. I used to do things like that from a sysadmin perspective, asking companies when I was asked to build out a mail server. “Great, how much downtime is acceptable?” And they said, “Absolutely none.” I said, “Great. I'll need a budget of $20 billion to start, and when that runs out, I'll come back for more.” And they said, “Wait, what are you talking about?”And we said, “Oh, now we're negotiating with the business.” And it turned out what they really meant was, “It would be nice if the mail server worked during business hours most of the time.” And, “Oh, okay. I can do that for slightly less.” And it really just came down to what do you value? What is important to your business?Jason: Yeah. How much reliability do you need? Although one of the key things that I always point out is, a lot of times people are like, “Oh, you don't need 99.9% reliability; you could probably get by with less than 90 because people aren't using your application at night, they're not using it on the weekends, yadda, yadda.” The other problem with that, though, is you rarely control when those outages happen.So sure, if it happens in the middle of the night, and nobody's using it, great. Just keep sleeping. As you start to work on this, though, there is the idea of it could happen at any time, so let's actually test things to ensure that if it happens at the least opportune time, things actually work the way that we expect.Corey: And that's an incredibly valuable thing. See, you're already convincing me on this. And clearly, you're very effective at that advocacy role. How do you hire and how do you determine who's a great fit? Because I'm imagining that bringing someone in, in an advocate role, and their position being, “Oh, at no point, can you ever measure me on any context, and just assume that what I'm doing is amazing and great.”That becomes a hard thing to do. When I was talking to companies about possibly doing evangelist style roles, years ago, I asked, “How will you know if I'm being successful in this job?” And one of the answers was, “Well, you speak at a certain number of tier-one conferences a year.” “Cool, what are those?” And, they listed off a bunch and cool, there's only one in that list that I'm not scheduled to speak at this year, so do I get a raise?People try and aim at the wrong thing in their quest to articulate what they really value, but what they really value is hard to measure. So, how do you evaluate people on a basis of are they doing what they should be doing, or are there ways that they can be coached to improve, or are they just not effective in the role at all?Jason: Yeah. Well, I think you mentioned two great things, are they doing what they're supposed to be doing? And it comes back to every quarter, we're laying out the goals of what do we want to accomplish this quarter? And we make them achievable, so hopefully, by the end of the quarter, you've achieved this thing that not only the team, but senior leadership has decided is a good thing for the company. And to that point, if it's not, if we do that thing and nothing happens, and it's—or it's bad for the company, at least we can say, “Hey, senior leadership, you are the people that thought this was a good idea, too.” But that said, we try not to do the blame. We try to iterate on things and experiment a lot. Especially at Gremlin, we're all about experimentation, so we're constantly trying things. But ultimately, it's are you getting this thing done that we've agreed that we're going to get done?But you also mentioned that second thing about growth. I think that's something that I always look for with anybody, whether that's DevRel or engineering. I want people that are interested enough in the job that they want to do it well. There's something about it that they really love or they're really into, and they want to master that. And so part of my goal as a leader is trying to help people along that path of what do you find interesting? For example, last year, we were working on those tiers, as we're trying to figure out what does it actually look like. Because we're really small team at Gremlin, and so as I'm starting to consider how do I promote people?What are the various, like, levels or tiers of going from an advocate, to a senior advocate, to whatever is beyond that? So, I asked the team, really, “What do you think that would look like? What do you think the next level for your career is? What is the thing that you want to master?” Because ultimately, people have more investment when they're choosing their destination and they're choosing their direction.And so if I can help people do that, just define what's the next thing that you want to tackle? What do you think mastery or the next level of your career looks like? How can we help you get there? So, that's what I am for.Corey: For better or worse, it seems to be working. I remember back when Gremlin was a rando startup idea a couple people had and now I'm starting to see you folks, basically everywhere.Jason: Yeah. Again, we've got a small team, but it's a great team. So, Ana Medina has been on the team, actually, before I joined, but she's been doing a fantastic job and she has been working on a lot of our educational outreach. And then Pat Higgins on the team actually started on the engineering side. So, he was one of our front-end engineers; he's been working on a lot of really great tools.He helped me restart the Break Things On Purpose podcast. So, we're into season two of that now—and by the way, we should have you on that show as well. But yeah, we're doing a lot of fun stuff, and folks are happy. So, try to keep them challenged, and we'll see what's next.Corey: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the story continues to evolve. It's a fascinating field that went from, “That is ridiculous,” to, “Oh, that's great but it would not apply to what I do,” to, in my case, it actually would not help me in any way with what I do because it turns out, well, what if an AWS region goes down and you can't produce your newsletter the usual way? Oh, I'll write it by hand that way because suddenly I have a much bigger story to talk about that week.Jason: I am curious, though, speaking of having you on the podcast. Oftentimes, we talk about reliability, and having never had to deal with AWS bills because they always go to somebody else in finance, I am curious how reliability ties into the cost of what you're paying for AWS? Because I can imagine things like—a common thing that we hear about is, “I'm moving a lot of stuff to Lambdas.” Like, great. Serverless. It's cool, it's hot. How is that charged?Corey: Right.Jason: Obviously, by time.Corey: Oh, yeah.Jason: So, if it's charged by how long something takes, what if your latency goes up? What if your resources are constrained? How does this actually affect things? And how does that impact how you think about reliability not just from a is it up or down? How's my customer looking at it? But maybe from what your AWS bill looks like?Corey: I love where you're going with that. And it's the conversations everyone loves to have as about three levels beyond where most companies actually are. Easy example that sounds like something in the distant past, but it's very real today: I want to store data in multiple availability zones for durability purposes and making sure that we are reliably up. Well, every time a gigabyte crosses an availability zone boundary, that cost two cents. And then you have to pay to store it twice.So, there's a question of how much is having multiple sets of that data worth? And the cloud-native answer to that is, “Oh, put it in S3. There's no cross-charges there. Their durability is ridiculous, and you can access it a whole bunch of different ways, provided your application supports it.” But that's not a fit for everything.And you find that saving money, and being reliable, are at some point completely at odds with each other. And this is incidentally, why we don't do this as a tool, we do it as a consulting engagement. There are times where, for business purposes, you will want to spend more on reliability. Because saving money that accidentally takes your company down for a month is not money you should be saving.Jason: Yeah.Corey: Now, the real fun thing I want to see from Gremlin one of these days from a implementation perspective is, just for fun, we're going to run a chaos injection experiment where we decide to cancel the credit card tied to the account and then also remove the increasingly frantic alerts from your email when that happens, and see how long it takes you to realize the giant single point of failure that no one really thinks about existing, but absolutely does.Jason: So, I am curious, for folks that are listening who are engaged with the chaos engineering community, or at least follow Corey's newsletter and have seen updates, AWS has announced their own chaos engineering tool, the Fault Injection Simulator, which to Coreys skill of poorly named things, that actually isn't a simulator. It does inject real faults, so it may be—S should be service. One of their faults, though, that they can do is API throttling, which essentially could simulate the idea of, you haven't paid your bill; we're turning things off. So, Gremlin is working with the AWS folks, we're trying to figure out great ways that we can work together so that people can use both Gremlin and AWS FIS. So, I'll let you know if that becomes a thing, and maybe we can get some API access to billing as well.Corey: I'd love to see it. Please keep me looped in. Thanks so much for taking the time to basically go all over the world of DevRel and probably make some lifelong enemies in the process. If people want to hear more about what you have to say, where can they find you?Jason: Yeah, I'm on Twitter. My Twitter handle is @gitbisect—and by the way, if anybody tweets about Git bisect, it is a fantastic tool, fantastic utility within Git—oftentimes, I will respond. But that's where to find me on Twitter. Otherwise, you can find me on [unintelligible 00:31:30] podcast, Break Things On Purpose. It's available in all the platforms.Corey: Excellent. We will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:31:37]. Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really do appreciate it.Jason: Yeah, thanks, again. It's been long overdue, and I'm glad we finally made it happen.Corey: Awesome. Jason Yee, Director of Advocacy at Gremlin, I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment saying that the best thing to test breaking in production is your DevRel team.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

(First Hour) On this episode we talk about some comedy shows Ratt is looking at,Cory Taylor talks shit on Rock Hall with Vince Neal and Jason Newstead news. (Second Hour) We get into the new Shazam teaser trailer Snyder cut talk and much more.Hosted by: Matt The Ratt & Dee RottenMusic................................................................................1. Skribbal - The Man Who Fell from The Sky (17:00)2. Neon Funeral - DeLorean in The Desert (35:30)3. Park Ape - Now (51:32)4. Point 4 Hope - Skys the Limit (1:18:30)5. Doll Klaw - Abduction (1:33:00)What Ever We Feelin Radio Social Media.................................................................https://www.instagram.com/what_ever_we_feelin_radio/ https://www.twitch.tv/what_ever_we_feelin_radio https://www.facebook.com/whateverwefeelinradio https://open.spotify.com/show/4bl1tYL0zNrDDOkRq5YCCO Eddie Leeway Go-fund me page help and donate.....................................https://www.gofundme.com/f/eddie-leeways-fight-with-cancer?fbclid=IwAR1D0iYlliadVNv8qLwy1HRbQM6p2aQcHqoLQOhkMuCQRgedJAkGju9diQc Matt The Ratt Social Media........................................ ...............................................https://www.instagram.com/ratt_talk/ https://www.instagram.com/metal_ratt666/ Dee Rotten Social Media..................................................................https://www.instagram.com/fromthedungeonpodcast/ https://www.instagram.com/dee_rotten/ All music owned by artists. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Mini malls, shopping centers, and large department stores all still exist and remain popular despite their digital counterparts But online marketplaces are where more and more brands are gathering to not just sell goods, but to get a better 360 view of their customers, and gain access to sell products from other big name brands that fit their marketplace niche. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I explored that idea a bit more with Jason Wyatt, the Executive Chairman at Marketplacer, a business dedicated to creating marketplaces. We dove into the various ways that Jason has seen marketplaces evolve, especially in recent years. Plus, Jason talked about some of the incredible innovation that he’s seen take place  thanks to marketplaces — including the birth of Providoor, an Australian marketplace for restaurants that was built as a reaction to COVID-19 and reached a $100 million run rate within 12 weeks. We talked about how the marketplace connections made that possible, and also how the B2B landscape can be revolutionized thanks to marketplaces. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Getting The Bigger Picture: By creating a marketplace, businesses can get a much deeper picture into the attributes of their customers, while also gaining access to inventory and products to sell from big name brands. The key to success? Curation.We Have A Connection: One of the greatest advantages of a marketplace are the connections that can be formed within them. Especially from a B2B perspective, because for so long those buyers have been left out of the ecommerce equation. They desire the same level of connection and ease that those in B2C have come to expect though, and marketplaces have provided a way to create community and engagement that has made B2B selling and buying much easier.Long Live Loyalty: Big brands have long tapped into loyalty programs as a way to earn customer trust and keep them coming back. By expanding point systems to usage within a marketplace, brands are now becoming even more trustworthy and respected in the eyes of consumers, who can all of a sudden get more bang for their buck. Additionally, the rise of wide-ranging marketplace loyalty strategies will likely become a new way for retailers to attract customers to newer marketplaces.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, I'm Stephanie Postles CEO at mission.org and your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today on the show, we have Jason Wyatt, who currently serves as the executive chairman of Marketplacer. Jason, welcome.Jason:Hi Stephanie, thanks so much for having me on the show today.Stephanie:Thanks for hopping on at 7:00 am. I think you're one of the earliest guests I've talked to over in Australia, so I appreciate you coming on and joining me for a fun chat.Jason:No worries at all. It's just a pleasure to be on the show and talk to your community.Stephanie:I was hoping we could start back in your... way back in the early days when you were 13, because I saw a fun story about what you were doing back then and a little entrepreneurial spirit that was going on, and I was hoping you can kind of share what you're doing back then so people can get to know you a bit before we dive into Marketplacer. This is all around a loan that you got from your dad if you know what I'm talking about.Jason:Well, I might, I was actually... I was a mad sports fan, as the majority of Australians are in this country. And I was playing tennis at the time, if I'm on the right track with this story. And we used to play a lot and pretty competitive. But my brother was a lot better than me, but I used to sort of grab onto his heels, but we constantly used to break racket strings. And we didn't come from this massive affluent family. We come from a family of just, the harder you work, the luckier you get. But dad, what he did do is he loaned us the money to buy our own stringing racket. He just said, "If you keep breaking these strings, well you got to fix them yourself."Jason:My brother and I took advantage of that situation. We figured we had an unfair advantage versus the other tennis players within the group. And then what we actually did is we turned that into a little tennis racket stringing business. So at the age of sort of 13 or 14, we were making a hundred bucks a racket, stringing out sort of four rackets a night and we had a little good business going on. I suppose the entrepreneurial spirit sort of started at a very, very young age where we had a problem to solve and then we solved it for other people.Stephanie:I love that. It definitely rang close to home because I was out in my neighbor's yard, raking, weeding doing anything I could just to earn $5 here and there. And I love hearing about how other people had that itch early on too, and seeing what it turned into later on in life.Stephanie:I'd love to jump into Marketplacer a bit and hear what is it? When did you create it? And what are you guys up to today?Jason:Marketplacer is probably the most fascinating business that I've ever been associated with, because it enabled so much global connection and enables people and businesses all over the world to sell things they don't own and to really supercharge commerce. And the story started back when my co-founder and I, Sam Salter, we just had a simple idea 13 years ago to make it easier for people to buy and sell bicycles. And we created a business called BikeExchange. Think of cars.com for bikes. You're buying a new bike and you want to see everything in one single destination or you're selling your bike and you want to sell it to a community that's a trusted community, has a sense of belonging behind it. And we created BikeExchange. But in doing that we had some really, really big, tough entrepreneurial problems to solve.Jason:We had to come up with a sales and marketing plan. We had to come up with a customer success program, but most importantly, the technology never existed. So, we not only have to be great salespeople, not only a great customer focused, but we had to become technologists at the same time. And we just thought, in everything, in creating a business, in creating a marketplace on a global scale it's a problem that we could help other entrepreneurs or other businesses now actually start to use a platform to enable them to be able to create it. So the story was born out of solving our own problem, out of eating our own dog food in a technology term. But now we help people all over the world in 10 countries solve that marketplace journey, of really just making it easy to connect a customer and community to make it easier for them to sell things they don't own and to supercharge commerce. And I'm sure we're going to unpick what that means in a lot more depth over the next hour or so.Stephanie:That's awesome. What's wild to me is that building a marketplace is notoriously like the hardest thing you can do in commerce. Everyone struggles with supply side, demand side, how to build which one first, and you're not only doing it once. You're replicating it, using your software and doing it with multiple industries. How do you even go about approaching it, especially if it's a new marketplace?Stephanie:You had your bike one, I know earlier you were talking about meal delivery from restaurants, how do you even think about building a new marketplace and solving for both sides of the market?Jason:It's a really good question because we always identify what we consider to be an unfair advantage when we help our clients and customers really figure out whether it's a worthwhile strategic project for them. Because it's a strategic project to go through, that marketplace journey. And the unfair advantage has really been always anchored around two core elements. The first being an existing community or audience or customer base that you know they want to buy more things from you. Or you know you can connect them up in a single destination to improve that customer experience. And the second is more often not the ability to have an in-depth knowledge of the supply base, a connectivity into that supply base and product base. You can actually really exploit the now and explore the future around connecting those two sides of those marketplace journeys.Jason:The evolution and the story of a marketplace has really evolved over time too, from the humble beginnings of a BikeExchange when we first started. It's now in 10 countries, and now we're out around the world and listed on the Australian stock exchange in January of this year.Jason:Thank you, awesome team effort by the team. To really large retailers and brands and, and all types of traditional types of business saying, "Hey, I've actually got one or probably two of those unfair advantages and how can I make it easier for me to grow and drive growth within my existing customer base, without the limits of capital and without the limits of actually producing all of the products, but enhancing my customer experience along the way?"Stephanie:How do you figure out, I mean, how I'm envisioning is that you would probably have like a lead brand who's for the bike one or for the meal delivery one you'd have to have kind a lead person who's owning that marketplace and then they're onboarding other brands as well. And other customers, is that how I'm thinking about it? Because I can't imagine having 20 BikeExchanges where every bike company is, "Well, I want my own marketplace. And I want mine." It seems once you have one, it's probably good enough and you have to be a part of that one.Jason:It's a really, really good question.Jason:There's different types of marketplaces, but the evolution that is really happening at the moment is, take SurfStitch for example. SurfStitch is actually a commerce cloud customer. They're a pure play surf wear brand. They sell hard goods, soft goods and clothing and bus fashion around it. But they've got this community, this tribal community of surfers and they're really a successful business, great growth really, really well leveraged on the commerce cloud stack. But when they looked at their business and they looked at their strategic path, they're constrained by warehouses, they're constrained by the capital, but they had in the back of their mind that they thought that, if we could have the full range of surfboards, instead of only taking 20% of the range of surfboards in all sizes, by connecting up to the wholesaler warehouses.Jason:And then to unpick that to the next layer, when you think about it, a surfer is quite a soulful person. They love the outdoors and are they only surfing? Or are they going hiking on the weekend? Are they exploring the outdoors as well? But I don't want to put a hiking gear in my warehouse. That's too risky, but I could go and connect up to Patagonia to take a full range extension from Patagonia without owning the inventory. So by taking a marketplace strategy or really a growth strategy, what they were really able to do is make it easy for them to connect that to a supplier base, to improve their customer experience and really enhance that 360 view of what that customer is trying to do. Not only from a data perspective, but a product and an experience perspective.Stephanie:Got it. That makes a lot more sense now. And it also just seems the role of curation is so important and whoever's curating the best products and not just throwing a thousand things into one marketplace, really thinking, like you said of, okay, you might be hiking, but you're probably not cooking too. Like I'm not going to put cookware in my marketplace with Patagonia stuff and surf boards. It seems like curation is huge when it comes to that. And also knowing what's trending and what their customers will like is a big part.Jason:Yeah, but it also enables this strategy, the ability to fail fast within there as well. If you put it a camping stove on there or a shower after you go for a surf, to clean yourself off, you haven't bought it. You've had a go at growing in there. It didn't work customers didn't like it. So just turn it off.Jason:With Marketplacer what we really focus on as well, is a really strong vetting engine for the sales force customer and any of our customer community so that they... it's just not a free for all, for all of the products flowing through. It's that ease of connectivity into the supplier base. And then it's the strict controls and measures that you can put in place to enable your customer experience within the marketplace strategy, not just "the everything for everyone" experience. If that makes sense?Stephanie:Yeah, it makes sense. I was going to ask when it comes to marketplaces, how do you guys think about marketplace or versus the Amazons and the eBays and Etsy's of the world that seem like they are kind of creating custom curated collections in a way too. But not as much of a niche level where I would say "Okay, we're going to be doing bikes and here's your community and your people." How do you think about the landscape of marketplaces right now?Jason:It's a very interesting landscape, because it's kind of a bit of a cross matrix at the moment, Stephanie. In that there's B to B, B to C and B to B to C plays within what we're trying to do. And then if you take the types of marketplaces the other way, so all three of those really go across all three gamuts. And then if you take the types of marketplaces, you've got the niche and the tribal based marketplaces, and we put media organizations into that bucket. If you imagine all of the great magazines, like we power lots of magazine marketplaces, where Time+Tide is a good example of a watch marketplace, where they have the beautiful content, they have the trust within the industry. They had a community of people looking to buy watches, but they didn't have that connectivity into the supply. But now they've got it. Another really great example is FishBrain, which is the world's largest fishing marketplace.Stephanie:Didn't know that existed. That's awesome.Jason:I'm not a big fishing person, but think of Strava fishing. Think of a really, really large... I think they've got over 13 million users within the United States now. They wanted that into a commerce play, but they didn't want to own inventory. They didn't have a buyership, they didn't have product developers. It was too difficult to do it. So what they did is they partnered and they connected into the world's best fishing suppliers to create a marketplace. Now that has over 60,000 products to sell that you can just buy.Stephanie:Is there ever a chance of them getting lost. When I hear 60,000 products within a fishing marketplace, how do you get found in that big marketplace?Jason:That's an interesting one. So fishing is probably the best industry to do it because what I have learned about fishing is there's lots of micro products for the local areas. So there's lots of little lures and lots of little different tackles setups, the different communities and different areas. There's lots of niche products within the niche. That one makes a ton of sense to have a really big, broad breadth of inventory within that.Jason:So if you think of the tribe, the addressable market behind people trying to take that convergence of content into commerce and contextual commerce, that space is born for a marketplace. Isn't it? It's an affiliate 4.0 where it can connect into the supply banks. Then you look at brands and retailers and franchise groups and cooperatives. If you actually look at the structure of all of those businesses... Co-operatives and franchise by default are marketplaces. They're a masthead brand their third-party inventory is owned by their franchisees groups. What we're finding in this space is we're just increasing the offering that they can have.Jason:We connect up their franchisees group into a single destination. For example, actually within Australia, we run the largest tire business called Bob Jane T-Marts and Bob Jane T-Marts are a really large franchise group. They're a $600 million business. And tires are a complicated product. They seem simple, but they're incredibly complicated because you've got to match every tire to every car to every wheel ever made, ever sold.Jason:But by creating a marketplace strategy within that, they're really famous for solving one problem. We connected up all the franchise groups via our marketplace technology. But if you think about it, what they really have is car data and car ownership data. What else could they sell a person at the BMW, other than tires and wheels that could enhance their car driving experience? You'll start to see lots of these franchise groups, not only connected in unifying their customer experience, but actually starting to think about how can they enhance their customer experience without the cost of capital burden placed that amongst their franchisees group or cooperative structures and buying groups are in the same bucket.Jason:Then if you just think of traditional retailers, whether they're a pure play or a bricks and mortar or a blend of both. Which the world has a blend of both now, right? There's no real, just pure play or bricks and mortar retailers anymore. So the problem they're trying to solve is exactly that problem we talked through with SurfStitch. How do they enhance their customer experience in store or online. Where they can range extend or category extend, to supercharge their commerce journey within that.Jason:And that last sort of bucket within that is that brand or wholesaler journey. And the brand and wholesaler journey is a really interesting one because it does really touch on those three sort of core verticals that I said at the start being B2C, B2B and B2B2C within that.Jason:The first one's pretty obvious from a B2C perspective, if you're a brand and you can see a perfectly complimentary product, why would you want them to leave your platform to buy it from another platform? Why wouldn't you just connect it up to enhance your customer experience?Jason:If you sell shoes for example, I'm going to dumb it down, but if you sold shoes, how could you connect up with a sock company that had the best brand to associate the shoes with socks without actually owning all of those imagery behind it? And we've seen lots of great examples of that. We actually power the Nokia marketplace. If you're thinking of buying the phone, what other connected product and you put in within that connected ecosystem and Google are a partner of Nokia phones globally now, and all of the Google products is going to be available on the Nokia marketplace.Jason:You can start to see this connectivity piece really, really drive home within that. And then from a B2B2C perspective is how do you not cut out your stockists? How do you find a way as a brand or a distributor in a modern world not to cut them out. Whether it's a marketplace, a unified experience, but what our marketplace platform can do is connect it all up. You can cut your retailer into these third party product sales, but without, without actually going against your traditional business model. And we're seeing a fair bit of that momentum behind it as well. Then the growth space and it's going to be really interesting, because I think that the world is saying how, from a B2B perspective, from a traditional brand, when you're selling to retailers when you're consolidating in a B2B industry, how does a marketplace make sense?Jason:There's Alibaba and then there's not much. The interesting play within there is the unfair advantages to businesses is pretty similar then than it is to a B2C perspective. Their unfair advantage is really anchored around their existing stockists or retailer base that they sell into. They've got a great community of sales representatives or sellers on the floor, who are going around and servicing them. How can they then connect up to other suppliers in other industries that could actually self to that community and we make it easier to do that. And there's a really sort of large demand at the moment behind B2B marketplaces as well. It's an interesting thing to call these things marketplaces. They're not all marketplaces, but what we're doing is we're connecting the world to enable supercharged commerce.Stephanie:I love that. I want to hear a little bit about the revenue numbers. When brands embark on this marketplace journey, what are some stories when a new company starts revising your guys' tech?Jason:It's a really interesting story and journey behind it. I'll give you one example during, during COVID, the world's a different place and we all know that, and there's not much point in delving into what's next after COVID. I think everybody's thinking about what's next after COVID but what we fundamentally know today. It's just a different world. It's a different world than it was in the past. And the power of connection during COVID in a digital sense, drove some of the greatest innovation stories that I've seen for some time. And I'll share the story of Providoor. In Australia, this is a case study we rolled out.Jason:It's nearly exactly this week, last year to the day and a great friend of mine, but a celebrity chef Shane Delia. He owns some of the best restaurants in Melbourne and he's got cooking shows on TV and big personality, vibrant, enthusiastic. Had 150 staff behind his restaurant business at four restaurants, one at the airport. The institution restaurants you know, think of Mamasita in New York. These are like famous restaurants within this country. And he emailed me and he just said, "Jason, I'm stuffed. I've got all of these people, I've got food, I'm just throwing into the bin. I've got leases that I've got to pay, but I've got this one glimmer of hope."Jason:"I've just done a trial where yeah, I'm doing ready, sort of made precut food where the customer just has to finish it off at home. So it's like they're getting the magic of a restaurant quality experience in their home."Jason:And he said, "I've done it for a couple of weeks and I'm selling like $5 to 6,000 a day." And I said, "Well, talk me through the problems that you've sold." And he said, "Well we've solved this packaging, we've figured out how to I get it to the customers with the boxes." He did this in a week, like extraordinary innovation. He's, he's sourced the products, the lined boxes, he's got the dry ice, he's fixed the packaging for this. So the tumor is sort of doing, you know, that those types of volumes in a small way. And I said, "How are you delivering them?"Jason:He said, "Well I've got no choice. My chefs are preparing it, My chef's are driving at 35K around Melbourne, to drop it off at people's doorsteps at 4:00 am in the morning." And I said, "Well, you've probably got to solve your logistics problem in a real quick way. But there's something in this, because there's a demand." You're not doing any marketing, your unfair advantage is you're... I call him a B grade celebrity, he probably thinks he's an A grader. But he's got this celebrity audience that he can tap into. He's got trust within the community. The other chefs will trust him. He's never gonna do anything wrong by that industry or community and customers just loved it. If we could solve a couple of problems, i.e, how do we make it easy for all restaurants to sell in the same way and create a marketplace around it.Jason:And then how can we make it easy for people to get the delivery experience behind it? I think you've got the bones of a really good business. Shane's a pretty good hustler. And five weeks later, we'd pulled every string in the world to get Providoor live. Where the best restaurants within the Melbourne CBD was selling to a 35 kilometer radius of the Melbourne CBD, get it delivered in two delivery slots AM and PM. They would cross stock. The trucks would drive around Melbourne pick up every box. Cross stock it into a single parcel. So you would only get a single parcel. You could order from all the restaurants in one. If you were entertaining in your home or just wanted to release from COVID, or you had a birthday party, or mum and dad couldn't get to the restaurant, then you could actually experience it. And after a 12 week period he was on a $100 million rate. Solving those capital problems.Stephanie:And this was from other restaurants as well that he onboarded onto essentially the marketplace that he created. It started with his restaurant. He brought on others as well. What does the cut look like for him versus the restaurants that are also selling on the marketplace that he essentially established?Jason:Yeah, it was again, really interesting. Shane took, I think it was a 15% slice of the pie. So he actually...Stephanie:Who decides, or you decide when you create the marketplace how much you...?Jason:Yeah.Stephanie:Nice, okay.Jason:It's part of the marketplace platform, when you create a marketplace. We solve all of those commission calculations and you choose, as running that marketplace, what each seller gets, and you can change it by product or category. Now you can do really complex commission calculations, but we also manage all of the seller payouts. You imagine that volume in that period of time, if you're cutting checks, so you're doing individual payments it's un-scalable. So that's why he had to... besides the fact that's why you needed a marketplace platform to, to scale at that rate, but it just shows you if you can leverage those couple of unfair advantages and pull it together in a really neat way and solve a problem, how big you can get quickly.Stephanie:That's crazy. It sounds like you kind of want to make sure you have an audience first or partner with someone who does already have, like you said, that tribe, who's kind of waiting that you can tap into that. How do you go about even convincing customers to come and buy on a marketplace? Are you doing anything around exclusivity where it's if you're selling your bikes or your box meals or whatever on Marketplacer, you can't also sell, I don't know, on DoorDash, do you have DoorDash in Australia? Or something similar.Stephanie:How do you think about creating that moat around the market places that are building up?Jason:I think any business, whether it's a marketplace or not a market place, you create moat. And if you could get the number one selling product of the world and get it exclusive to your business, whether you own it and send it yourself, or whether it comes direct from the supplier. I would a hundred percent recommend that every single day of the week.Jason:In Shane's situation and in Providoor's situation he solved some pretty big problems. No one else in the world, in my opinion, in a five week period could have created this marketplace. And then secondly he partnered exclusively with the logistics company that was an under utilized fruit. You imagined it was a fruit delivery business where they were delivering to corporates, their fruit boxes. And they went from a hundred percent capacity to 0% capacity, but then Shane took them back to a hundred percent capacity. So you've got to, you have to find very innovatively, underutilized, cold, refrigerated delivery network in a really short space of time. He created a couple of really, really solid moats that enabled it, nearly impossible for somebody else to do it in that period. But they were just extraordinary. But the short answer to your question, I'd always promote a moat.Stephanie:So try and make things exclusive, if possible. How do you bring... what are some of these brands methods of bringing their customers onto a new platform? Because that does kind of feel like it could be an experience that might cause a bit of friction of like, "Oh, I'm always used to either just buying directly from your website or just buying from Amazon." What kind of tactics should a brand use if they're trying to convince someone to come and buy on a new platform that maybe they haven't heard of before.Jason:You're talking from the end consumer experience when they're buying from you. It's all around trust in the process. It's in that front end customer experience or any communication around it, it's about building trust and rapport around building a marketplace community. And there's many techniques you can use around that.Jason:Some companies choose not to even say who the seller is on the marketplace. They take a really hard supplier agreement and they say, here's your SLA supplies. If you don't supply under these terms and conditions in these ways, then we're going to exclude you from our community, moving forward. Other marketplaces take the opinion of, "I'll let you rate my supply. I'll let you rate your seller." So it's going to be a customer led trust build up around it.Jason:Other marketplaces over time have put their own sort of ratings and experience... the one thing I'll say around the customer journey when you don't physically own the product is you've got to be really clever and your communicative style. The items might not appear in one parcel, items maybe sent at different times. And if you can bring your customer and community along that journey, they're very attuned to it in this world that you don't get one single parcel from one single vendor every single time and boxes can appear on different days, just as long as the communication strategy around when they're turning up. I mean, the timelines as a customer's experience is really well handled. I think it's a problem that's that's well solved in market.Stephanie:Always good to make sure you're doing it in a trustworthy way where your customers are like, of course I'll go where something's being sold and there's good curated products there. What are some best practices around developing that community and keeping your community engaged and making them want to come to your marketplace that you built up. What kind of tactics do you see happening behind the scenes that are working?Jason:We're seeing at a little bit of scale at the moment, the loyalty programs being attached back into the marketplace strategy. And I think it's a space that's going to be really interesting moving forward, whether it's loyalty or membership economies or subscription economies around it, it's something that's definitely an interesting space.Jason:Take Myer's another example within our region, but Myer's a really large department store. It's the Macy's of Australia. It's the number one department store. They've had some really challenging times, pre COVID and obviously during COVID. Big box department stores, lots of inventory, really expensive leases. And they've kind of been kicked off from every corner. Right. But what they did have is they had an incredibly loyal customer base that actually had a brand affiliation with Meyer, but most importantly had a really strong brand affiliation with the Meyer loyalty program, because it was such a good rewards program.Jason:When they launched their marketplace, they actually gave the customer base the same points that they would earn on Meyer across all third party marketplace products. And you could use your points to buy from all of the third party products.Stephanie:That's imposing.Jason:Exactly. And we won a, I can't say who, but we've won a major global airline at the moment where instead of just being able to book airfares using your airline points, now you can buy 40,000 products using your points, promote burn perspective from your airline miles. So I think what you're going to find is this community of traditional loyalty programs or earn and burn points systems, being able to tap into really broaden their range to become really big, meaningful marketplace strategy, loyalty program.Stephanie:That's super smart. The one thing that's coming to mind is thinking about data privacy and how does the sharing work, especially if you're onboarding other brands onto your platform, I'm guessing I would want access to that customer data. I'd want to be able to talk to them, especially if I'm shipping something to them, or even someone's viewing me as a person that's shipping it to them, even if I'm not really in the backend. What does the sharing of the, maybe customer information look like, in a way that's probably protected and keeps everyone safe.Jason:Say for example, we're talking to the commerce cloud community. If you're a commerce cloud customer, you're the merchant of record in that instance, aren't you? You're always controlling the customer record. You're controlling, you're receiving the funds yourself. But you do have to share the customer address and you do have to share some details of that customer because they've got to receive the items. You've really got to make sure your supplier agreements are quite stringent around data privacy. And then within the marketplace platform, there's a couple of configuration points where you can mask email address and not mask email address. So there's configuration around customer privacy settings that gets forwarded through to that end seller within there as well. But what we actually find is that the broader supplier or seller community is unbelievably respectful of the end customer because they're attuned to selling in this methodology now, and they know if they break or breach those privacy laws or those privacy policies that you set up as a marketplace operator, is that they're going to be cut off and, and they're going to lose that whole channel.Jason:We've had basically no problems of that over the journey of Marketplacer. It's something that's a very small, minimal risk.Stephanie:Amazing. Let's talk a little bit about ads. And I'm thinking about you're this big marketplace. Maybe if you're the fishing one, you've got 60,000 products, I could see you guys having an entire ad unit or the person who maybe is owning the marketplace, starting to create a demand side platform when it comes to delivering ads. And how are you guys approaching that right now with all the brands that you're onboarding?Jason:The world of relevant display and sponsored contents and contextual commerce, back in to market places is a real interesting space. Because if you can not only just send your products to a third party marketplace, but then you can buy specific media around it and launch products within it. It's super exciting. We're actually integrated into Google DMP, and all of those great ad serving systems within that. And what you'll find especially as the world moves into a headless commerce situation, is that the brands can put whatever DMP they want into the commerce cloud headless stack. They can be really quite innovative around, not only just creating traditional revenue streams for the product they own. Not only creating modern revenue streams in the fact that they can sell things they don't own, but now they can actually turn their traditional retail businesses into a media business as well, which obviously comes at a much higher gross margin than physically owning the inventory.Stephanie:Any innovative stories that you see happening around the advertising space within Marketplacer? That brands are maybe trying just new and different things because of the operating model of this new business they didn't have access to before?Jason:The obvious one that just comes to mind is actually BikeExchange. BikeExchange does exactly that every single day of the week. It connects live into all of the retailers. As part of the Marketplacer platform... because some of the problem in the marketplace scenario is how do you make it easy for your sellers to connect? How do you make sure that the inventory is accurate and live? How do you make it so that when a retailer of stock list receives the order, that they can just seamlessly process it, without having, necessarily a billion spreadsheets rolling every direction for everything they sell. We sold that in a really nice, elegant way where if you're on... and if you've got an existing POS system, so point of sale system or an existing e-commerce engine, we built pre-built connectors for the majority of them in the world.Jason:If you're a bike seller selling on BikeExchange and you're on Lightspeed and you wanna send your inventory into the BikeExchange marketplace, it takes minutes. What would typically take hours? Why is this important from a media perspective? It's because then the brands on BikeExchange or Specialized or Trek, or any of the big brands when they're launching a new product, they can actually drive the leads into stores that have stock available today. You can get very clever around your display and media allocation and where you drive the sales to. And a physical stockists level within that marketplace strategy, which is pretty cool.Stephanie:That's huge. I think about the times I try and order stuff Home Depot. And it takes me 15 minutes trying to find what store you can go to pick it up. I'm like, why is this so hard? Just don't show it to me if it's not within 20 miles of where I'm at.Jason:Exactly. And that sort of relevance posts, zip code, allocation and inventory allocation is something that comes out of that marketplace assistant, but it's all structured around live connectivity back into the source seller system. Obviously if a seller wants to connect manually and they've got a few products or they've got a CSV uploader, or they've got a great API, but it's this pre-built connector platform that's enabling our marketplace at the scale at a rapid rate.Stephanie:That's awesome, so where do you all want to be in the next two to three years? What are you planning and prepping for and building for right now, other than scaling and IPO'ing and doing all the fun, things like that.Jason:I think what really drives us at Marketplacer is we just want our customers to grow and to grow in a really sustainable way. Where they can, they can enhance their customer experience. So we've really launched hard within the United States today. We've announced that Salesforce ventures has actually bought a stake in Marketplacer and that enables us... yeah, we're so humbled by it. It's such a great experience to deal with that Salesforce community, but what that enables is any commerce cloud customer globally to now really look at Marketplacer as the way to significantly grow your business and grow your customer experience within that.Jason:It gives us deep access to the Salesforce product team. Gives us deep access to the implementation partner community. It gives us deep access to the actual Salesforce customer success team. What that really enables us to do is to help that Salesforce commerce cloud community grow and connect up to all of these great suppliers, make it easy for you to supercharge that business. And it's a core focus of ours over the next sort of 12 to 18 months, for sure.Stephanie:That's awesome. After hearing all this I'm like, why wouldn't you try this out? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of a marketplace, start a marketplace, so many opportunities and easy ways to scale that maybe it would be hard for single brands to do on their own. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's huge.Jason:No thank you so much and it's a big shout out to how the commerce cloud Salesforce, commerce cloud leadership are thinking at the moment. They're really putting that customer lens first and, and you're trying to grab those trends and you build it back within their community as well.Jason:It takes a little while for you to get your head around it. But when you dumb it down, we make it easy for you to sell products that you don't own. So you can supercharge commerce and grow. That sort of one line, and that sentence can start to really resonate with you. And maybe out of today you're not thinking this is my path, but it might just get those thought bubbles going to say, Hey, what about this supplier? What about this supplier? And if I only had those products, I'd love to try that one, but I don't want to buy it. It starts to connect it all up.Stephanie:Really good way to explain it. All right let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is of course, brought to you by our friends at Salesforce commerce cloud, which they got many shout outs well-deserved throughout this interview. So that is great. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Jason?Jason:I'm ready.Stephanie:We'll do the hard one first. What, one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Jason:I'd like to say the evolution of Marketplacer.Stephanie:That's okay. You do you. You can say whatever you want.Stephanie:What's one thing from 2020 that you hope sticks around throughout 2021?Jason:The ability to put the customer first and solve problems from a customer lens, when there was no other way to do it. And I think that transformative thinking of traditional businesses in that lens is going to put them in a really good light moving forward. We saw the acceleration of five or six years of thinking and thought, and decision-making in the space of six weeks. And just, don't let that go. Don't let that go. Let that stick with you forever. Because I think it's a unique opportunity.Stephanie:What's one thing you don't understand today, that you wish you did?Jason:French. No, I actually don't personally know how to program. I've never been a programmer and it's been to my advantage because I've never got sucked into it, but one day in life, I'd love to actually learn how it all stitches together and works.Stephanie:There you go. Well, that's a good skill to have these days. Let me know if it's hard, I'm guessing it is. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Jason:It would probably be about surfing to be honest. And it would have to be Kelly Slater.Stephanie:There you go. That's a good one. And then the last one what's up next on your reading list?Jason:It's actually interesting, because I bought it yesterday. I'm actually reading about gut health at the moment and the benefits of gut health. So I bought the CSIRO gut health book to understand how that can have benefits right throughout your life, from sleeping patterns to energy, to that holistic sort of view that the power of food and what it can do for you or, or can't do for you.Stephanie:Good, you can send me a TLDR of what I should be doing and I'll just listen to you.Jason:It doesn't mean I'm going to do it though Stephanie, this is the problem with reading. You don't always do what you should.Stephanie:We will do it. We will manifest it into our life. We will do it. All right Jason, this interview has been so fun, really a good time hearing about Marketplacer and where you guys are headed. Thank you for coming on, where can people find out more about you and Marketplacer?Jason:Traditional channels marketplacer.com and Jason White on LinkedIn and Marketplacer on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Jason:Thanks so much Stephanie, appreciate your time.

About Jason McGeeJason McGee, IBM Fellow, is VP and CTO at IBM Cloud Platform. Jason is currently responsible for technical strategy and architecture for all of IBM’s Cloud Platform, across public, dedicated, and local delivery models. Previously Jason has served as CTO of Cloud Foundation Services, Chief Architect of PureApplication System, WebSphere Extended Deployment, WebSphere sMash, and WebSphere Application Server on distributed platforms.   Twitter: @jrmcgee LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jrmcgee/ IBM Cloud Code Engine: Learn more during this live virtual event on April 14th (also available on-demand after April 14th) Read more: https://www.ibm.com/cloud/code-engine Get started today: https://cloud.ibm.com/docs/codeengine?topic=codeengine-getting-started Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/yH_mgW2kGzUThis episode sponsored by IBM Cloud.Transcript:Jeremy: Hi, everyone. I'm Jeremy Daly and this is Serverless Chats. Today I'm joined by Jason McGee. Hey Jason, thanks for joining me.Jason: Thanks for having me.Jeremy: So you are an IBM fellow and the VP and CTO of the IBM Cloud platform. So I'd love it if you could tell our guests a little bit about yourself and what it is that you do at IBM.Jason: Sure. I spend my day at IBM worried about developers and platform services on our public cloud. So I'm responsible for both the technical strategy and the delivery of our Kubernetes and OpenShift platforms, our serverless environments, and kind of all the things that surround that space, logging, and monitoring and other developer tools that kind of make up the developer platform for IBM Cloud.Jeremy: And what about yourself? What's your background?Jason: Been a software, kind of middleware guy, my whole life. I used to be the chief architect for WebSphere app server. So I spent the last 20 plus years working on enterprise application platforms and helping companies be able to build mission-critical business systems.Jeremy: Awesome. So I had Michael Behrendt on the show not too long ago and it was great. We talked about a whole bunch of different things. IBM's point of view of serverless. We talked a little bit about the future of serverless and we talked about the IBM Cloud Code Engine, which I want to get into, but for the benefit of our listeners and just because I'm so fascinated by some of the things that IBM is doing now with serverless, it's just super interesting. So could you sort of give me your point of view or IBM's point of view on serverless and just sort of refresh the listener's memory sort of about how IBM is thinking about serverless and how they're probably thinking about it maybe differently than some of the other cloud providers?Jason: Yeah, sure. I mean, it's such a fascinating space and it's really changed a lot, I think, over the last five years or so from its kind of maybe beginnings in being very aligned with serverless functions and kind of event-driven computing and becoming a more general concept about how developers especially can consume cloud platforms. I think if you look at the IBM perspective on serverless, there's a couple layers to the problem that we think about. First is we've been pretty clear that we think Kubernetes and distributions of Kubernetes like OpenShift are kind of the key foundation compute environment for developers to use going forward. And we've done a ton of work in kind of building out our Kubernetes and OpenShift platforms and delivering them as a service on our public cloud. And that's an incredibly flexible platform that you can really build any kind of application. I think over the last five years, we've proven we can run anything on Kubernetes databases and AI and stateless apps and whatever you want.Jeremy: Right.Jason: So very, very flexible. However, sometimes flexible also means complicated and it means that there's lots to manage and there's lots of concepts to get your head around. And so we've been thinking a lot about, well, how do you actually consume a platform like Kubernetes more easily? How does the developer stay more focused on what they're really trying to do, which is like build application logic, solve problems? Now they don't really want to stand up coop clusters and configure security policies. They just want to write code and run code and they want to get the power of cloud to do that. Right? And so I think serverless has kind of morphed to be, for us, more about the experience that we can build on top of that container platform that's more oriented around how developers get work done and allows them to kind of more easily take advantage of the scale and power of public clouds without having to kind of take on the burden of a lot of that kind of work and management.And so the work that we've been doing is really aligned in that direction, that we've been working in projects like Knative, in the open source community to build simpler abstractions on top of Kubernetes. And we've been starting to deliver those in our cloud through things like Code Engine.Jeremy: Yeah. And I think that's interesting too because I always have, this is probably the wrong way to say it, but it's sort of a chip on my shoulder about Kubernetes because it just got so complicated. Right? It's just so many things that you have to do, so hard to manage. And as a serverless guy myself, I love just the simplicity of being able to write some code and just get it out there, have it auto scale, tie into all those events. So I think that a lot of cloud providers have sort of moved that way to say like, "Well, we're going to manage your Kubernetes cluster for you." Right? Which essentially is just, I think moving backwards, but also moving forwards at the same time, if that makes sense. But so in terms of the use cases that this opens up because now you're not necessarily limited to a sort of bespoke implementation of some serverless platform, you have a lot more capabilities. So what types of use cases does this open up?Jason: Yeah. I mean, I may have a couple of comments on that. I mean, so I think with Kubernetes, you have the complexity of managing the Kubernetes environment, but even if that's totally taken care of for you, and even if you're using a managed Kubernetes service like the things we offer on IBM Cloud, you still have that kind of resource burden of using Kubernetes. You have services and pods and replica sets and namespaces and all kinds of concepts that you have to kind of wrap your head around and know how to use in the right way. And so there's a value in like, "Can we abstract that? Can we move away from that?" And it's not like this idea hasn't been tried before. I mean, we've had paths platforms, like kind of Cloud Foundry style, Heroku, very opinionated paths environments in the past and they definitely simplify the user experience. However, they came with this negative, which is if you don't fit within the box of the opinion ...Jeremy: Right.Jason: ... then you can't do what you want to do. And the cost of going outside the box was super high. Maybe you had to completely switched platforms. You were completely blocked. You to switch to some other approach. And so part of what's informing us and as we think about this is how do you have more of a continuum? You have a simple model. It's aligned around what you're doing. Just run my source code, just run my container image. I want to run a batch job, but it's all running on one platform. They're running next to each other. You can drop down a layer into Kubernetes if you want to. If what you're trying to accomplish needs some of that flexibility, you should have access to it without having to kind of start over. And so that's kind of how we've approached the problem a little bit differently is bringing this all together into kind of one unified serverless environment on top of Kubernetes.And that lets us handle different use cases. That lets those handle kind of stateless, data processing and functions. That lets us handle simple web apps. That lets us handle very data-intensive, high-scale computation and data processing, async processing like batch all in one combined way.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because there are artificial limitations may be put in place sometimes on serverless platforms. If you think about AWS Lambda, for example, you get 15 minutes of compute and they bumped things up. So now, and again, I've just sort of grew up in the AWS environment, but they have things like 10 gigs for a function or something like that. And so they've increased these things, but they are sort of artificial limits that I think, depending on the type of workload that you're doing, they can really get in your way, especially if, like you said, you're doing these data-intensive things. So from an IBM perspective, I mean that's sort of gone, right?Jason: Right. Exactly. That's a great, very concrete way to look at the problem. The approaches that have been taken in some of the other cloud environments is these different use cases like serverless functions, single containers, batch processing, they're different services. And every service has its own kind of limitations or rules about what you can and cannot do. How long your thing can execute, how big your code can be, how much data you can transfer. We've taken a different approach to say, "Let's eliminate all those limits and let's have one logical service, one environment that supports all those styles." We can still expose a simplified kind of consumption model for the developer like just give me your source code or just give me your image, but I can run it in a way that doesn't have those computational limits, and therefore I can do more. Right? I can run more kinds of workloads. I don't run up against some of those walls that kind of stopped me from getting my work done.Jeremy: Right. Right. Yeah. And I like that approach too because I'm a big fan of managed services. I think that if you have a service that does image recognition for you, that's great. And do you have a service that does queuing for you? That's great. But in some cases, you start stringing together so many different services and I feel like you lose a lot of that control. So I like that idea of just basically being able to say, "Look, I've got the compute. I can do whatever I need to do with it. It will scale to whatever I needed to scale to." And I think that's where this idea of IBM Cloud Code Engine comes in, which just became GA so I'd love it if you could tell the listeners exactly what that is.Jason: Yeah, absolutely. So, so Code Engine is the new service that we launched that makes some of these concepts I've been talking about real. It is a service that allows developers to deploy functions, containers, source code, batch jobs, into IBM Cloud. The entire environment behind that application is managed for you. So we handle you don't manage clusters, you don't provision infrastructure. You can scale all the way to zero. So you can literally only pay for what you're using. You can scale up to thousands of cores that are in parallel processing your application and we manage that entire runtime environment for you. So you can think of it as a multi-tenant shared Kubernetes-based runtime environment that you can run your workloads on that presents to you the personality that you need for different workloads. And because it's all in one service, if you have an application that's like a mix of some single containers and batch jobs, they can actually talk to each other, they can talk to each other over a private network connection. They can work together instead of being kind of siloed in these completely different environments.Jeremy: Right? Yeah. And so from the developer, I guess, perspective, you had mentioned that you can deploy just code or you could deploy a container if you want to. So what does that developer experience look like? So is this something where I could just say, "Look, I don't need to have a whole ops team now managing this for me. If I just want to write code, deploy it into these things, I'm sure there's some things I need to know," but for the most part, what does that developer experience look like?Jason: Yeah. So you absolutely could do it without a whole ops team. The experience right now, there's like maybe kind of three basic entry points. You can give me source code and we will take care of compiling that source code, combining with a runtime, executing it for you, giving it a web end point, scaling it. You can give me some hints about kind of how much resource you think you need and things like that and we can scale that up and down and manage it for you, including all the way down to zero. That's nice if you're coming from maybe a historical paths background or it's just like, "Here's my code, run it for me." You can have that experience with Code Engine. You could also start with a container image. So lots of developers now, because of things like Kubernetes and Docker, are very familiar and comfortable with packaging up their application as a container image, but you don't want to then deal with creating a cluster and dealing with Kubes.So you can just say like, "Here's my image, run it for me." And one of the advantages we have with Code Engine is we can really do that with any container image. You don't have to have a container image that follows some particular framework that's built in a very special way. We can take any container image and you can just literally point me at the image and say, "Run this for me," and Code Engine will execute it and scale it and manage it for you. Or you can start with a batch job interface. So like a more of an async kind of parallel job submission model. So maybe I'm doing Monte Carlo simulations or data processing and I want to parallelize that across a whole bunch of machines and cores, Code Engine gives you an interface for that. So as a developer, you kind of start with one of those three entry points and let Code Engine take care of how to run that and scale it and keep it highly available and things like that.Jeremy: Right. So I love the idea of the batch jobs. I want to talk about that a little bit more, but let's go back to some of the use cases here. So what if I was building just like a REST API, that seems to be a very popular, serverless use case, what would I do for that? Do I need to have some sort of an API type gateway type thing in front of it? Or how does that work?Jason: No, Code Engine provides all that for you. So you would literally either just take your implementation and package it in a container or point us at your source code directory. If you have source code, we use things like Paketo Buildpacks to build a runtime around that source code. And so you can use different languages. So you can either point us, with our CLI tool, you point us at the source code directory and we'll build it and package it in a runtime and run it for you. Or you point us out a container image that you've uploaded to our container registry or to your container registry of choice and then Code Engine will execute that for you. It will give you that web end point, right? So it'll give you a HTTP end point that you can use to access that service. And it will watch the demand on that system and scale it up and down as needed. And by default, we'll just scale it to zero. So it'll just be kind of registered in the system and it'll take care of scaling it up as needed to handle the demand on the app.Jeremy: All right. Cool. And then what about these batch jobs? So I talked a little bit about this with Michael and this idea of being able to run massively parallel execution. So how does that all work?Jason: Yeah. So similar, obviously with batch, there's a little bit more kind of metadata that you have to provide to describe the job and what you want to execute and how things relate to each other. So there's some input data you provide along with the implementation of the batch job, which itself could just be like a container image and you submit that job. So the CLI interface is a little bit different. You're not standing up a long-running REST end point, you're submitting a job to Code Engine for execution, and it will go take that job and execute it and parallelize it for you. You can also use Frameworks on top. One of the things we've been doing a lot of work on, maybe Michael talked about it a little bit when he was here, is some work we're doing around Ray. Ray is a really interesting new project that lets you do kind of distributed computing, especially around data workloads in a really easy way.And so you can actually stand up Ray on top of Code Engine and so Ray acts as kind of the application interface for the developer to be able to easily parallelize their code, particularly Python code, and then Code Engine acts as the runtime below it. And you can take a simple function in Python, mark it as Ray remote and it'll now execute on the cloud and distribute itself across a thousand cores. And you get your answer back 20 times faster than you would have running it locally. And so you can have those kinds of async environments as well.Jeremy: Awesome. And so what about some customers? So do you have customers that are having success with this now?Jason: Yeah, we have a number. I mean, we have the European Microbiology Laboratory, which is using it to do science processing and provide access for scientists to the large-scale compute environments of the cloud. We have some airlines that are leveraging this. The airline scenarios, I think, the scenario is actually kind of interesting because it shows the power of combining REST end points, more interactive workloads with batch workloads. In their case, they're exploring using it to do dynamic pricing. So if you think about how you do dynamic pricing, there's kind of two dimensions. It's like, there's a very interactive, somebody is getting a price on a ticket or a route, and you want to be able to present them with dynamic price information as part of that web interaction. But then there's like a data processing angle.You're looking at all kinds of data coming from your backend systems from route data, from the fleet and historical information. And you're trying to decide what the right price table is for that route. And so you're doing batch processing in the background, and then you're doing this interactive processing. You can implement both halves on serverless with Code Engine and they scale as needed. If you're getting a lot of traffic on the web front end, it scales up as needed without you having to do anything. So they can kind of combine both halves in one environment.Jeremy: Right. Right. And so in terms of, I think we kind of talked about this a little bit, but when you see all these different services, right, and no matter what it is, whether it's Google's Kubernetes engine that they run or it's EKS on AWS or something like that, I think a lot of people look at these and like, "Oh, it's just another managed Kubernetes cluster." Right? So what are the major differences? I know we talked about it a little bit, but maybe you could just be a little bit more succinct and sort of talk about why is it so different than other sort of previous generations of tools or some of the other competing products out there.Jason: Yeah. So if you look kind of behind the curtain on Code Engine, you'd see a couple of things. One is there is Kubernetes there, there is a Kubernetes environment there. The differences that Kubernetes environment is completely managed by the Code Engine service. So we're not, if you look at, in IBM Cloud, we have the IBM Cloud Kubernetes service and our Red Hat OpenShift service. So in those services, we're managing a cluster on your behalf, but we give you the cluster. It's like, "Here's your Kube cluster. We'll manage its life cycle, but you have direct access to it." With Code Engine, we have Kube cluster there, we completely manage it in all respects. You have no kind of direct access to it. That allows us to manage scale and capacity. We run that in a multi-tenant way. I mean, we have security and isolation between tenants, but logically you can think of it as like a big Kube cluster that lots of users are sharing, which is how the pay as you go model ultimately works because we're keeping track of what you're actually running and just charging you for that.So one part of it is fully managing that runtime environment. We've layered on top of that things like Knative so that we have that developer abstraction like a simpler way to define services, to do the source code and image stuff that I talked about. That's coming through largely through things like Knative, which again, we're completely running for you, but it gives you some of that simple interface now that we talked about, and we're doing that in an open-source way with the community. So it's not like proprietary to IBM Cloud. And then on top of that, we built kind of the batch processing system. So batch scheduling and some of these unique interfaces, the command line interface and the user experience to get into that environment for the different workflows that I talked about. And one of the cool things is, because we built it on top of that Kubernetes layer, we can also expose the Kubernetes API if we want.So like the Ray example I gave you, Ray doesn't really know anything about Code Engine, but Ray knows how to deploy and leverage a Kube cluster. So we're able to actually hand Ray the Kubernetes API server end point inside of Code Engine for your instance. And that framework can use Kubernetes to stand itself up. And then you can use the kind of simple abstractions on top, and that's still all in Code Engine. It's still pay as you go and it still scales to zero. And so that's what I meant by this you can kind of blend the lines and drop down to or the framework can drop down to something like Kubernetes as needed to give you that flexibility.Jeremy: Yeah, that's awesome. So you mentioned you have a fully managed Kubernetes service and then you also have a bunch of other serverless services that run within the IBM Cloud. So OpenWhisk or, I guess, IBM Cloud functions now. And then also, I mean, you mentioned Cloud Foundry, which is sort of a pass, but it also sort of an easy-to-use serverless environment in a sense. Right? And so I guess, is this like an evolution? Is this where you suggest people go?Jason: Yeah. Yeah. So I think the simplest way to think about it is yes, Code Engine is the evolution of those ideas. It doesn't necessarily have a direct technical lineage, always, between those projects, but the problem that functions with IBM Cloud functions that Whisk was trying to solve and the problem that Cloud Foundry was trying to solve with source code, start from source code paths, are both represented in what we're doing in Code Engine. So Code Engine will be the kind of natural evolution path for those workloads and for the problems that those users are using those platforms for. The Cloud Foundry one, I think, is super interesting, in the sense that with the rise of Kubernetes has clearly pivoted many people who were doing Cloud Foundry into doing Kubernetes.Jeremy: Yeah.Jason: And people are using Kubernetes as their foundation and the Cloud Foundry project, which we're deeply involved in, has done a lot of work to kind of realign Cloud Foundry with Kubernetes in a better way. But what never went away, what people always still saw value in with Cloud Foundry was the simple push my source code developer experience. Right? And so that still carries forward. And with Code Engine, we're taking that same experience that we had in Cloud Foundry, and we're bringing it into this new service and bringing it onto Kubernetes seat, so the developer still gets that similar experience, but without the boundaries that we talked about. The challenge with Cloud Foundry was always like, oh, as soon as you want to do stateful things, or you want to do async jobs, Cloud Foundry didn't solve that problem. Go use a Kube cluster or go use some completely different environment. And so it's kind of the same experience with the boundaries removed and that's where we would see people go.Jeremy: Right. So if I'm in one of those services, now, if I've got things written in Cloud Functions or in Cloud Foundry, and I've hit some of those limits, or I just want to take advantage of some of the cooler things that Code Engine does, is there a simple migration path for those?Jason: Yeah. In general, yes. For Cloud Foundry, for sure. It's pretty straightforward to take the same source code directory that you have and just push it to Code Engine instead. Right? So I think the path for a Cloud Foundry, I mean, there's edge cases with everything obviously, but the base of workflow is the same. You can use the same source input directories. We mapped to Paketo Buildpacks, which Cloud Foundry, a lot of that stuff came out of Cloud Foundry. And so that has a really clean path. For Cloud Functions. There's a little bit of a timing thing in general, yeah, you can take your same functions. You can run them on Code Engine. OpenWhisk has some advantages still that we haven't quite gotten built into Code Engine yet. It's got faster startup times, for example, right? The runtime model behind Code Engine, we're still starting a container, like a full container.In OpenWhisk we had done a bunch of work on warm start of containers and container pooling so we can get like small number of milliseconds startup times on those functions. And some of that hasn't worked its way into Code Engine yet. So there are still some cases with Cloud Functions where it has some capability that doesn't quite exist in Code Engine yet, but over time that will get filled in and there'll be a simple path there to move all those workloads over to Code Engine as well.Jeremy: Right. So with Code Engine, because you mentioned this idea of sort of like the cold starts. So does Code Engine keep containers warm for a certain amount of time or is it always a cold start?Jason: It is, in general, a cold start. It can keep some of them, like in the scale up scale down cycle, it may keep them around for a while, so it doesn't be overly aggressive about scaling them down and bringing them right back. But it's not doing some of the warm start tricks yet that OpenWhisk was doing where we have a pool of primed container instances, and then we're injecting code into them and running them. That's work-in-progress. There's work to do both in Knative to improve that stack and then stuff to do in Code Engine. There's a balancing act there too ...Jeremy: Yeah, definitely.Jason: ... on things like network isolation and getting on customer VPC networks and other things which are harder to do in that warm start model.Jeremy: Yeah, definitely. All right. So if somebody wanted to get started with Code Engine, what's the best way for them to do that, just sign up and start writing some code or how do they do that?Jason: Yeah, kind of. I mean, obviously, we've been talking a lot about how developers use these things. And so I always think the best way to get started is either to build something on it or to try out some specific source code project. We have a lot of things that we've done to try to make that easy. So there's a Code Engine landing page on IBM Cloud. It has some great examples to guide you through those three starting points I talked about, start from source code, start from image and do batch. We have some really nice tutorials, like specific text analysis tutorials, for example, that'll show you how to build applications on Code Engine. And we actually have a pretty cool Git repo, which will take you through tons of samples of how to use Code Engine to solve all kinds of problems.So there's a lot of really good code assets out there that a developer could go to and actually try something real on Code Engine and the getting started experience is super easy. You've got IBM Cloud, you log in and you go to Code Engine, you create a project, you push an image and then a couple of minutes you'll have something up and running that you can play with.Jeremy: Amazing. All right. So I love watching the evolution of things and again, just this different way that, that IBM is thinking about serverless and, again, trying to make it easier. Because I always look back and I think of Lambda when it first came out, I was like, "Oh, it's so easy. You just put some code there and it's just done for you." And then we got more and more complex and more and more complex. And not that we didn't need to, I mean, some of this complexity is absolutely necessary, but I'm just curious, seeing the evolution and where things have gone, I talked to a bunch of people earlier about, Roger Graba, for example, who was one of the first people involved with the IBM or the OpenWhisk project, I guess it was Apache OpenWhisk or it became Apache OpenWhisk, whatever what it was, seeing that evolution and seeing the changes that these different cloud providers have gone through, seeing the changes that IBM has gone through and where you sort of are now with Cloud Code Engine.I'd love to get your perspective here on where you think this is going, not just maybe what the future is for IBM, but what you think the future of serverless is and just cloud computing maybe in general. I know that's a lot of question.Jason: I'll give you a long answer.Jeremy: Perfect. Jason: So that brings to mind two things. First, let me talk about the complexity thing for a second. Managing complexity is always hard. You are so right. That many things start out with a value prop of like, this is easy. And then as people use, the more you add more, and then three years later, we're like, "We need a new thing that's easy because that other thing is too hard now." And there's no magic pill for that. That's always a hard problem to manage. However, one of the things I like about the approach that we're trying to take with Code Engine is because we've layered it on Kubernetes, It gives us a way to kind of decide where we want that complexity to show up. When we had a Cloud Functions OpenWhisk stack and we had a Cloud Foundry stack and you had a Kubernetes stack, you had to try to solve all problems within each stack.So each stack was getting more complex because you were trying to like, "Oh, I need storage. And I need like private networking. And I need all these things." With Code Engine, I think we have an opportunity to say, once you cross some line, we're just going to ask you to drop down a layer and go use it directly in Kubernetes, right? You can push some of the complexity down and that allows us to hold a harder line on complexity in the developer layer on top. So it's the balancing act we're trying to play is because we built it on a common platform, we don't have to solve all problems in Code Engine directly.Jeremy: Right.Jason: So that's kind of my viewpoint on the complexity problem. On the evolution, it's really interesting. So one of the other things that my team's working on and launched recently is this thing called IBM Cloud Satellite, which is about distributing cloud outside of cloud data centers so you can kind of consume cloud services anywhere you want. So cloud computing in general, and this is not just an IBM thing, in the industry cloud computing is diversifying to be kind of omnipresent. You can consume cloud on-prem, at the edge, in our cloud data centers, wherever you want. There's a programming model dimension to that problem, too. As you specially go to the edge, you kind of want some of these simple to consume, easy to deploy, scale to zero, resource-efficient, you need some kind of model like that because at the edge, especially, you don't have 2000 cores worth of compute to go deal with.You have one box in a retail store, or you have two servers in the back of the distribution center. And so I think things like Code Engine layered on top of distributed cloud and in our case, things like Satellite, is actually a really powerful combination. I think we're going to see serverless become the dominant application development and deployment model, especially for these edge use cases, because it combines ease of deployment and management with efficiency and scale to zero footprint, which are all really attractive when you get outside of a mega data center like you have in cloud.Jeremy: Right. Right. So I love this idea, too, about sort of expose the complexity when the complexity needs to be exposed. I love this idea of sort of creating same defaults, right? If you could default Kubernetes to do all the optimal things that you would need it to do for use case X, if you could just do that for me and then if I say, "Oh, I want to tweak this one thing," then be able to kind of go down to that level. But I love this idea of you mentioned about edge too because that's one of those things that I think, from a programming model, as you said, how do you write code that's sort of, I guess, environment-aware? How does it know what's running at the edge versus running in a data center versus running maybe in a hybrid cloud and partially in your own private cloud or your own private data center? That model, just wrapping your head around it from a developer standpoint, I think is incredibly complex right there.Jason: Yeah. It is. And sometimes it's like, how do they know? And then sometimes it's like, how do I just operate at a high enough level of abstraction that like the differences between those environments can get handled below me? If I'm consuming Kubernetes clusters directly, the shape of that Kubernetes cluster in like a retail store or a telco data center in Atlanta somewhere or in the cloud are going to all be different because you have a different amount of capacity. You have a different networking arm. So you're going to have to deal with the differences. If I'm giving you a container image and saying, "Run this," the developer doesn't have to deal with those differences. The provider might have to deal with those differences but the developer doesn't have to deal with those differences. So that's where I think things like serverless and approaches like Code Engine really come to be much more valuable because you're just dealing at this higher level of abstraction and then Satellite and Code Engine and other services can kind of magically deal with the complexity for you.Jeremy: Yeah. And so I know we talked a lot about Kubernetes and what's running underneath a lot of these services. Is that something you see, though, as being that sort of common format across all these different services, or do you think that something will evolve beyond Kubernetes to become a standard?Jason: Right now, I really think that Kubernetes will become the base platform. What Kubernetes is will probably keep evolving. And I'm not saying it's Kubernetes forever, but I don't think we should underestimate the power of the kind of industry-wide alignment that exists around containerization and Kubernetes as the next infrastructure platform, if you will, because that's kind of really what it is. And I told you at the beginning, I used to build webs for apps servers. So I was like very involved in the whole Java app server era, the late 90s and early 2000s. And at that time, the industry kind of aligned around two platforms, Java and .net, as the two dominant, at least enterprise, application platforms. We have everyone aligned on Kube. Literally, there's nobody in the industry who's not like, "Kubernetes is the platform." So I think it will be the abstraction for infrastructure in all these environments. The question will be, how do you consume it? Who manages it? How's it delivered? How does it optimize itself? And then at what level do you consume?And I don't think Code Engine is the end of it at all. I think there's lots of room for improving the consumption experience on top of Kubernetes for these developer use cases.Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. And that's actually was going to be my next question, sort of where do you see, what's the next evolution of Code Engine, right? So is that going to be kind of driving into specific use cases more and trying to solve those or becoming more flexible? How do you see the developers, I don't know, in five years, maybe this probably a hard question, but in five years, how are we going to be writing cloud applications?Jason: Yeah. It's a great and super hard question, but I think projects like Ray, I think, are an interesting forward look into where this might go. One of the things that I've always felt like, if I look at the whole history of paths in particular over the last five, six, seven years, paths has always been about simplifying the experience for the developers, but fundamentally, most paths environments don't change anything about how you write the code. They change how you package the code, how you deploy the code, how the code is executed, and how the dependencies of the code are satisfied. But the actual code you write probably wasn't any different. Right? And that's where I think there's the next step is like, how do we actually get into the languages, into the code structure itself to be able to take advantage of cloud capacity, to be able to take advantage of scale and there's lots of projects that have taken attempts at that.Ray, as an example, I think is a particularly interesting one, because there's some good examples where you can take a Python function, you literally add like one annotation to it in the language, and now it becomes remotely executable and horizontally scalable for you.Jeremy: Right.Jason: It's that kind of stuff that I think three or four years from now, there'll be a lot more of, where we're actually changing how code is written because that code can assume there's some containerized, scalable fabric out there somewhere that it can go execute on top of.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. And I think that that pendulum swing for developers, especially, well, developers in the cloud, who's they used to be writing a bunch of code, whether it was JavaScript or Python or Java, whatever it was and then all of a sudden now they have to switch context and be like, "All right, now I have to write a YAML file in order to configure my cloud resources," and that sort of back and forth. So yeah, that marrying of basically saying like a programming language for the cloud is a really interesting concept.Jason: And I think the distributed cloud notion, funnily enough, is a big enabler of that. Because, I don't know, the other tension I see right now is like, let's say you wanted to use Lambda or you want to use serverless functions. That only works in your cloud environment, but you're also running something at the edge or you're running something in your data center, so you're forced to kind of use different approaches, which tends to force you to kind of some common denominator models.Jeremy: Right. Right.Jason: And so you're kind of holding back from really adopting some of these newer models because of the diversity. Well, if cloud goes everywhere and those services go everywhere, then now I can just say, "Well, I'll use the serverless model everywhere. And so I can really deeply adopt it." So I think the distributed cloud thing will open up the opportunity to embed these approaches more deeply in kind of day-to-day development activities.Jeremy: Yeah. No, I love that. I'm all for that approach because I think this split-brain sort of approach to it is getting very complex and it's not super easy. So is there anything else that you'd like to let the listeners know about IBM Cloud Code Engine?Jason: No. I mean, I think we touched on a lot of the motivation behind it and the kind of core capabilities. I would just encourage you to go check it out, go check out the space, go give it a try and love to hear people's feedback as they do that.Jeremy: Awesome. Well, first of all, I got to make sure I thank IBM Cloud for sponsoring this episode because just the team over there and everything that all of you are working on is amazing stuff and I appreciate the support. We appreciate the support in the community for what you're doing. So if people want to find out more about you or more about Cloud Code Engine, how do they do that?Jason: Yeah. And you can find me on Twitter, JRMcGee, or LinkedIn. For me personally, I love to talk to people. For Code Engine, I think the best place to start is the product page, which is ibm.com/cloud/code-engine. And from there, you can get to all of the code examples I talked about.Jeremy: Awesome. All right. Well, I will put all that stuff in the show notes. Thanks again, Jason.Jason: Yeah. Great. Thanks, Jeremy.

Show Description On this episode, Michael, Taylor, and Jason discuss Apple's discontinuation of the original HomePod, and iMac Pro. News Apple discontinues the original HomePod and iMac Pro. For more info, see the links in the show description. Evidence that supports the eminent a-rival of Apple's AirTags was Found in the Find My app in the iOS 14.5 beta. Hims has launched the BrailleSense 6. Google released the Android 12 technical preview. Ad iAccessibility app development services Picks Jason: TalkBack version 9.1. Taylor: GeneratePress Michael: The Expeditionary Force Book Series Providing Feedback We love hearing from you, so feel free to send an email to feedback@iaccessibility.net. You can follow us on Facebook, and Twitter. You can also find us on Reddit, and all around the web. Also, don't forget to check out our YouTube page, and for all things iACast, check out our iACast page. If you'd like to help support us, you can do so via our PayPal and Patreon pages. If you wish to interact with us during our podcasts live then please do join us on our Slack channel. Show Transcription MICHAEL: Hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of the IA cast. All right, with me today, I have the usual group. We have Taylor Arndt, TAYLOR: Hello, everyone, MICHAEL: and Jason Earls. JASON: Hello, everybody. MICHAEL: All right, we have a great episode for you today. And you know, we've been gone for a few weeks. We had a kind of a crazy storm And then we wanted to get back on a regular schedule. So, we're back with a new episode to talk about all the interesting news that's happened recently and some rumors and news and a bunch of different things that have happened. So, let's jump right into it. Our main topic for today is the first news item, and that's the HomePod being discontinued. And I have very mixed opinions on this. JASON: I do too. I kind of understand why Apple discontinued the HomePod. Also, they discontinued the HomePod! It's okay, HomePod buddy, I still love you! As I pat my HomePod. MICHAEL: Didn't we have a hashtag for a while, pet the HomePod? JASON: I think we did. TAYLOR: Hilarious. JASON: I was just trying not to pat the screen because I didn't want music to happen, but that would have actually been really funny. MICHAEL: I think I have a picture of headphones sitting on a HomePod. JASON: Oh, yeah! The Andrea Cans! MICHAEL: Yeah, yeah. JASON: But yeah, on one hand, I understand why they did it because it was at launch a what, $350 Smart speaker that couldn't do terribly much more than play music. I mean yes, it sounded good, But you know, it's not what people were looking for in their smart speakers. Especially considering the likes of the Echo devices, the Google Home Hubs or Homes at the time. And you know, the HomePod's been around for like 4 years. So, in one respect, I kind of understand it. And you know, the HomePod Mini does have some features that the big HomePod doesn't have regarding the U1 chip and everything. But at the same time, the HomePod does sound so good! And as good as the Mini is and as great sales figures as the Mini is because of its price point and everything, you can't argue that it just does not sound as good as the big HomePod. TAYLOR: Right. But I think if we're thinking about it, the majority of consumers, they may not be in depth with audio and they may not understand that the HomePod sounds the way it is and that they want to pay for that. Because a lot of them just want to listen to music, and they want it to be portable. And so, that's where I think it's coming down to. Like, I understand why they they discontinued it, but yeah, it's kind of sad. I mean personally, I don't have a big HomePod, but that's because in a small apartment, I just don't have a lot of room. JASON: Right. And, you know, they did say that they are still going to push out software updates for the big HomePods and support the Apple Care which is good because I just got Apple Care last year. TAYLOR: Oh, that would stink otherwise. JASON: Right? But like, I really want them to come out with a bigger HomePod for 199. That's what I'm hoping for, even though they publicly said to I think it was like iMore or whatever that they were in fact focusing their efforts on HomePod Mini. Because let's think about it like this, the big HomePod — you know, Apple slash the price to 299, right? So, for $200. You could get two HomePod mini for less money than one bigger HomePod. Now, that doesn't mean it's going to have the bigger, basier sound of the HomePod, but at least you would get stereo audio and stuff. MICHAEL: Well, let's leave this part for the end because we're already kind of diving in. JASON: I know right? I like, I got thoughts I'm sorry. MICHAEL: But the other bit of news is the iMac Pro completely was discontinued and they're only selling them while supplies last JASON:That I'm not sad about. MICHAEL: In a way, I am. I think it was a great product, but I think we're about to see something new come from Apple. And as usual, we will be doing a live stream of that event. At least that's the plan. We'll be doing a live stream of the Apple event when it happens later this month. Because we do know for certain, right, that there is an apple event? JASON: I don't think we do know for certain. I just think speculations hide that there may be one, at least last I checked. But March 23 is the rumored date for the Apple event. I also haven't really looked at the news today. So things may have changed. But last I knew it was a hypothetical thing at this point. I mean, a highly likely thing at this point. MICHAEL: And I think it's because they're discontinuing these devices and the fact that we have so much information in the code about our next topic, and that's potential AirTags coming soon. Because there's mention of them in the find my app. TAYLOR: Yes, there is. MICHAEL: On the beta TAYLOR: Which is awesome because I've saw YouTube videos. Obviously, I don't have the beta myself, but I've seen YouTube videos that have mentioned it. Obviously, when you're on to prepare for the podcast just kind of looking at all the news. And but yeah, definitely pretty cool. And hopefully, hopefully they work. I mean, Tile's nice, but it'd be nice to have something built in and integrated for finding stuff. JASON: Right, and I guess Apple's opening up the FindMy protocol so that companies like Tile could take advantage of it as well. And it's nice to see that they are opening up more of their frameworks and things. MICHAEL: Well, and I think that's because there's been so much blame for antitrust and things between them and Google and things like that, that they're trying to make sure that they stay open — JASON: ahead of that, Yeah. MICHAEL: Because Google's had a lot of problems with that because they're in everything. The last bit of news that we have is, and I won't make any jokes, Jason, I won't do it, I won't do it. Those will be left for off the podcast, the BrailleSense 6. And I only make this joke because if you want to learn more, head to hims-inc.com/bs.6 . And I'm not kidding. Take all the jokes from that you can. JASON: Exactly. MICHAEL: Basically, we have the BrailleSense 6, and it was announced this week at CSUN. From what I've been able to tell, it was one of the biggest announcements because there weren't a lot of announcements this week. And the BrailleSense 6 dropped the Polaris naming. And it's Android 10, 120 Gigs of hard drive space, 80211AC wireless, a battery that while under load will drain 21% in an hour and a half if doing the max amount of work. That's the only battery statistic we can get. It has SD card slot, it has two USBA ports, a two USBC ports, a headphone jack, supports microphone, The, what is that called, Jason? JASON: I think it's TRRS, actually, I believe is the technical standard which is basically what this microphone that I'm using is, which is, think the older headphone jacks on the iPhones or the the headphone jack on the Mac. So it's that single microphone combo jack. MICHAEL: And it has all that, it has new software installed. And the person doing the presentation was using Zoom on the BrailleSense. So that's pretty promising. The only concerns I have are if it's going to get Android 11 and up, and how well the software is going to work because the Polaris had a lot of issues with deleting documents and things like that. JASON: Yeah, the BrailleSense Polaris is a very interesting device. I think it also actually Michael, in addition to the headphone jack, I think they said it also has a stereo line in Port as well. So you could connect music things to it, you know, binaural microphones really would work I would imagine to it. MICHAEL: Nice! JASON: Did you mention that it has 6 Gigs of RAM? MICHAEL: No, I did not. TAYLOR: Nope, you didn't JASON: So yeah, it's got six Gigs of RAM, an 8 core CPU. I don't remember if they announced the clock speeds of it, but — MICHAEL: It didn't. JASON: So, it really does seem like a very interesting device and — MICHAEL: And it's gonna cost 5799, come out in June. TAYLOR: Yeah. Wow. That's a lot of money. JASON: So we do know, the battery will be user replaceable though because they talked about that at the CSUN announcement I think MICHAEL: they do offer financing and trade ins for your older devices, so those are options to get you a lot closer in price to those devices. So JASON: Yeah, it's a very interesting device. I do worry what the battery life is really going to be like, TAYLOR: Right, and also if it can — like some note takers have a problem where they fall behind mainstream. And so that's the other concern too, is that like, you buy the $6,000 device almost. Well, it's already running two versions behind of Android almost at this point. 12 is beta. So that's the other thing too. These notetakers I mean, they're great for what they are, but you know, it's a specialized thing, and they're not always up to date. JASON: Like I said to you guys, I think off the show, if I were to get a note taker, it would probably be the BrailleSense. You know, the BrailleSense 6. It's so weird that they don't have a name for it now. TAYLOR: I know. MICHAEL: Alright, you know, and we could have a whole episode on notetakers, but I think we would want to have somebody on that can talk more about Braille and mainstream versus notetaker because I think that would be a very cool discussion. So TAYLOR: Yes. JASON: Yeah, I do too. Because I mean, I've used the BrailleSense in the past, but the BrailleSense I used was, I think, even before the U2. So, it was definitely not any of the Android based BrailleSense devices. So MICHAEL: Another thing that's happened, the last news topic I really could think about, is Android 12 is in technical preview. We really haven't talked about that. And I hear it brings a whole lot of user interface changes, but not a lot of — you're not going to be able to notice it very much with Talkback. JASON: Yeah, that's true. I have been playing a little bit with the beta. After a couple false starts, I eventually got it on my Pixel. I accidentally installed the version of Android, that AOSP version, so it didn't actually have a screen reader which is why I wasn't getting speech. TAYLOR: Oh, no. How did you fix that? JASON: I pre flashed it — MICHAEL: Very carefully. JASON: I was — TAYLOR: Yeah, very carefully. JASON: Yeah, very carefully. So yeah, I reflashed it, because you can actually go to the Google developer site, and you can actually use their online flash tool, and it will basically do all the work for you MICHAEL: Online? That's cool! JASON: It downloads the image to the device, you have to enable some things like OAM Unlock, and whatnot, it'll download the image to the device, and it will tell you when it's safe to unplug your phone at which point it should be booting into the beta of Android. MICHAEL: That's fancy. JASON: I know. MICHAEL: And talk about the security implications there. I mean, it's Google, and they have all the security keys and all that. But could you imagine if somebody were to spoof that, and be able to put a knot legit version of Android from a website? JASON: Yeah, I know. I did actually think about that. And then I stopped thinking about it. TAYLOR: That might have been a good idea. JASON: But like I said, I do have Android 12 installed. I don't notice too much of a difference. Although honestly, my Pixels not my primary driver, my primary driver's my iPhone. So what I can say though, is that 12 does seem to be relatively stable. And along with the introduction of Talkback 9.1 which is not specific to Android 12, I do think that the Android experience is going to improve a bit which is nice and awesome to see. MICHAEL: Yeah. So, it's really cool that, you know, we have the ability to flash these devices remotely. I think it's really neat. But we'll have more information about what's in the beta for Android 12 in a future episode, but I think it's really cool that we have the ability to do that, and to try these things before they come out, you know, iOS, Android, Windows through the Windows Insider program, and things like that. JASON: I think the one thing that was kind of annoying to me though is — and maybe it's just I did it in a way that made this happen. But it ended up forcing me to reset my phone to flash the version of Android 12 on to it. And of course, when I had the version without talkback, I didn't mind resetting my phone. And I think if you downgrade back to Android 11, I believe it will make you reset as well. They do tell you that. So MICHAEL: you know, I love how my watch made a noise even though I have — typically if I mute my phone, my watch will mute with it, but not this time. JASON: Oh, interesting. MICHAEL: Yeah, usually it mirrors but not this time, that's interesting. All right, so for our ad part of the show today, I want to talk to you guys about app development services that's offered by iAccessibility. iAccessibility offers app development services for iOS and Android at $50 an hour where we will build your app from the ground up based on your website or however, whatever app you're trying to build. And the app will be accessible and usable by all users. Unless it's a game that you really need specific use cases. We'll still try to make it as accessible as possible, though. So,, we've built apps like VO Starter, we've built apps like Pocket Braille, Blind Bargains, ACB Link, And that's just a few of the different apps on a lot of platforms that have been created. So $50 an hour minimum of $1,000 and you can have your app in the iOS and Google Play app stores. So you can go to iaccessibility.net to learn more, and we will be promoting that more on the website. So, people look out and we'll have more information. So thanks for listening to the iACast. And now on to our main topic for today. And we've already talked a little bit about that, and it's Apple discontinuing products like the HomePod. And you guys, I — this is — I feel like this is the most products that Apple's discontinued at one time. And you know, Microsoft has done it. I mean, they discontinued a whole store line. Google, Google is the project killer, they are known for that. Do you guys think Apple's kind of jumping on board that train, JASON: I think in a way they are. I really think what they're trying to do is they're trying to streamline their product line, and you know, not have so many variations of things around. Especially in the case of the iMac Pro. I keep wanting to call it the MacBook Pro. That is a different product. But the iMac Pro because they really want us all to move over to Apple silicon, which, you know, I'm personally fine with. So I really think that's part of it. And, you know, as far as the HomePod, I like to think that they have something new planned to replace this beautiful, soft, lovely mesh, big HomePod that I'm totally like rubbing a finger against right now because it just, it's fun! MICHAEL: Hashtag pet the HomePod. JASON: Exactly. But you know, I really hope that they do have something to replace the bigger HomePod with at some point soon. Because, yeah. TAYLOR: Yeah. So the thing with that is that, I think, like I said, a lot of these companies are doing that right now. They're just trying to streamline. And you know, Google has been doing it for years. Microsoft kills things. But Apple, like I said, this is really a first. They don't really do this all that often. And so, either one of two things, they either have a lot more products coming and they need to get rid of stuff, or they're just trying to streamline because a COVID and everything, obviously, but we've been in COVID for over a year now. So who knows. You know, they're just trying to get things streamline. Or if they are trying to add new products, but they need to get rid of some first. MICHAEL: And it might be — it might just be that they don't plan to update. Oh, well, actually, you know what? I think the Home Pod runs on the processor that the iPhone seven runs on. Isn't it, Jason? JASON: The big HomePod? Yeah, it's the A8. MICHAEL: Oh, wow. And I think that's the next on the chopping block this year, guys. TAYLOR: iPhone seven, you think next? JASON: I think well, the seven has the A9, right? MICHAEL: I don't remember — JASON: No, wait a minute. No, I think the A8 is from the iPhone 6. Actually. MICHAEL: But I remember the 6S is the last version — iOS runs on the 6S. And so I bet the iPhone seven will be the final version that 15 will run on. JASON: Oh, that's possible. I mean, at the same time, they did actually change the foundation according to some tech sites. They did change the foundation of what HomePod OS was. So for a while it was based on a foundation of iOS. And then I don't remember when this happened. But supposedly they ended up changing the foundation from iOS to TV OS so that it wouldn't have as much code and things in in the OS that isn't really needed and used by the HomePod. So I was kind of not expecting to see the cancellation of the big HomePod for another year or two yet. I was a bit surprised. But maybe — I mean, I was going to say maybe this has something to do too, with the silicon chip shortage. But that would probably be more to do with the Mac, I would think maybe then the homePod. MICHAEL: Well, it's interesting because I'm wondering if they're going to rename the HomePod Mini eventually to something else. Or if we're going to have the HomePod Pro, come out and then put a new device in later on in the HomePod category JASON: Right, or the HomePod Max. TAYLOR: Right, or the HomePod Pro Max. JASON: I don't think they'll do Pro — well, I lie, 12 Pro. — MICHAEL: If you think about it, on the Mac, we don't have a MacBook, we have the Mac Mini, the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro. We don't have a Mac Book or the Mac. TAYLOR: Oh, right. MICHAEL: So that might be kind of the landscape we're looking at for HomePod for a while. JASON: Maybe. MICHAEL: Because if you notice the mac book that came out like 2015-2016– JASON: 2015-2016, I think 2016, yeah. MICHAEL: It was short lived as well. So you know we have the air and the pro that are still around but the flagship name was was discontinued quick on that line too. So that's kind of interesting to think about. JASON: Yeah, it really is. And I think the one thing that's keeping me from being complete and utter 100% distraught that the big HomePod is being discontinued is just the fact that the — and I think I said this before, that Apple did say that they are still going to issue software updates for the big home pods for the time being, and supported still through Apple Care. MICHAEL: I'm wondering if you put two HomePod minis in a room, if you get the same quality sound as one big HomePod, JASON: I think you would get the same overall quality sound, because the HomePod Mini does seem like it sounds very similar to the big HomePod just without that deep low bass that the big ones can hit. MICHAEL: Yeah. And I don't know, it's to the point where when we look at these devices, it's hard to it's, and you know, maybe I'm just, my train of thought just keeps going all over the place. But the more I think about things, maybe this is a way for tech companies to dispel rumors and leaks by just saying, we're going to discontinue this, we're going to change this. And so it kind of throws people off to know what the next step is going to be. JASON: Yeah, maybe. I think though, in the case of the iMac pro being discontinued, we all know, it's most likely going to be because we're going to be seeing an apple silicon based iMac. Now whether we see that on March 23, which I personally don't think we'll see. I will say that on the show. And I'll be very happy to be wrong. But I don't think we're going to see that on the 23rd. MICHAEL: I think we will, I think that's going to be the focus is iMacs this year. JASON: I don't know, I think we might see things about AirTags and iPad pros and stuff, but we'll see. If I'm wrong. I'll be happy. Michael: See, maybe we need to come up with the accessibility pool. Because what I think we're gonna see and take your bets people. TAYLOR: Okay, MICHAEL: I think we're gonna see iMacs, colored iMacs, I don't think we're gonna see iPads just yet. But that's just me. Now, in saying that, iPads have come out in March before. So it's not out of the norm. But IMAX used to be used for education as well. And so if they bring out the colored iMacs like they had for education in the past and kind of marketed towards that, I could definitely see that being a march thing. And plus, iPad Pro has typically has an 18 month life cycle. It's only been 11 months since iPads have come out. So in other words, this is Michael trying to say please let my iPad be relevant in April. TAYLOR: Well, I have to agree with Jason on this one, Michael. Because, like I said, with all the evidence and stuff, I think it's gonna be AirTags and stuff. But again, if I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy to admit it. But I really think I have to agree with Jason, Michael. MICHAEL: And who knows, we may see all these things. I doubt it but TAYLOR: That'd crazy. JASON: no, you know what's really gonna happen. Apple's not actually going to have a product event on the 23rd, they're going to just announced their new products quietly on their site. And then we'll all be wrong. MICHAEL: And it could happen, it could happen. JASON: I do think though regardless, as sad as I am to see the big HomePod be discontinued, and like I said, me personally, I'm not terribly upset about the iMac pros cancellation and we're excited because, you know, that just tells me to watch out for the iMac. Not that I'm going to get one but it's still always fun to see what they're going to come out with. I still enjoy my HomePod. You know, I still plan on using it until something happens. Like, if nothing else using it until Apple decides they're not going to update it anymore. Whenever that may be, so. MICHAEL: Well, and that shows me that them discontinuing these things that just, especially on the iMac side it means that they have something new coming around the corner and they may decide that the pro line of iMac just isn't needed anymore because of what the A1 and A1x will do for these devices. I mean — JASON: You mean the M1? MICHAEL: Yeah, the M1. JASON: It's a processor, Michael it's not steak sauce. TAYLOR & MICHAEL: Right. MICHAEL: That needs to be the name of an episode sometime. Our previous episode title we came up with it is going to be it. JASON: Yeah, but that would be hilarious. 156 It's a processor not steak sauce. MICHAEL: All right. And you know, I wonder if that's why they started with a4S. JASON: I don't know. MICHAEL: Because Could you imagine Apple naming, now introducing our first processor line, the A1. JASON: and then Could you imagine the hilarity in covering the lawsuits, if that would even happen. That'd be funny. MICHAEL: Anyway, would that'd be a coprocessor for for Intel the A1 because it has to go along with it to make it better? TAYLOR: I don't know, would it be? That's your call. MICHAEL: I mean, if we're comparing Intel to steak there would be A1 processor from Apple to JASON: They'll call it, I don't know, I was gonna say steak Lake, but that just sounds weird. Dinner Lake, MICHAEL: Dinner lake. All right, out there. There you go Intel. When you come out with that chip that everybody wants just say time for dinner. Like, JASON: Exactly. MICHAEL: Anyway, I think this is the most jokes we've told in a podcast. And I really think that the M1X will really be like, there's no pro version of that, there's no way to up the process or on that. So there's, on the Intel iMacs, you can get i5, I7, I9, and you have the better display on the Pro, which they can still do the better display. But if the display is already going to be amazing in these new iMacs with the new chips, then they don't have a need to do that. So, there may not need to be an iMac pro because the new iMac will just be able to boast that it's pro already with the built in Apple silicon. JASON: And that was kind of my thinking, when I first read about the cancellation of the iMac Pro, I was actually thinking as you were talking and I don't really think Apple's gonna do this, if they came out with instead of the M1x. Or the M1 2, having the M1 Pro, but I really don't think they would do that, considering they already have products in their pro line that have the M1 and that would confuse people. MICHAEL: Right. But, you know, I just think that they're going to, I think that they — now that we're looking at coming slowly out of COVID, they're going to be looking for the best way to sell their products. And if you could just say, look at the shiny new products we have in our stores aren't aren't these amazing, people are going to want them and especially if they start doing these colors, like they've shown on concept art and things like that, that that are rumored, that's just going to be amazing. JASON: I mean, look at how popular the new Macs have been already, you know, because working from home and they've got that long battery life and the slightly upgraded camera because of the ISP MICHAEL: And you know, I'm doing all this on an M1 Mac, the recording and Zoom, and all that. And I keep telling people it's the better of the two machines. I mean, this is still a terrible camera, but I'm looking at my face on here. And it looks a lot better than my other Mac did, by far. So Apple has really gone a long way with what they're doing. All right, do you guys have any final comments we want to give before we wrap up today? JASON: Steak! MICHAEL: Yes. TAYLOR: Oh my God! JASON: No, I'm kidding. But you know, it's very interesting to see these product cancellations. I keep flitting between I'm sad, especially for the HomePod. And it's because there's going to be something new, like, a lot of me is just like, This has to because there's something new. So it's going to be very interesting to see what actually ends up happening. MICHAEL: Well, you know, the interesting thing, I want to point this out. The interesting thing about the home pod Mini is you don't need to plug those into the wall. JASON: Right. MICHAEL: And that's really interesting. I mean, you could build a USBC — you could buy a USBC hub, plug it into the wall and have five home pod minis hooked up to that thing — TAYLOR: In a power strip. Yeah. MICHAEL: Well, not even a power strip, just a USBC hub. TAYLOR: Oh, wow. Oh, yeah because it doesn't even plug in to the wall. Wow, I'm not thinking JASON: Or a battery pack. MICHAEL: Yeah, you could hook it up to a battery pack. And so that makes it almost more usable than the echo. TAYLOR: Yes, Yes! MICHAEL: And so I think that's why Apple really wants to focus on that because they're like, there's so much possibility here. TAYLOR: I wouldn't blame them. MICHAEL: I mean, it sounds better than any echo. I'm sure. I don't know, I haven't heard one yet. But JASON: Review say they do. MICHAEL: So, you know you put a few in a room. You're gonna get good audio. The only thing that you can't do is use the standard stereo speaker — or TV speakers. JASON: You can, they just won't — I just don't think they'll do Dolby Atmos and stuff that the big HomePods do. MICHAEL: How would you do — oh, well, Apple TV speakers, but how would you use the standard TV speakers? JASON: Oh, okay. Yeah, I misheard. I thought you said Apple TV. Yeah, you can't use Well, you can't even use a big HomePod as a standard TV speaker. So that's not MICHAEL: It's not new. Could you imagine if they came out with the HomePod sub where you had 2 of the apple speakers of the homepod minis as your regular speakers? Now, that's a possibility. JASON: That's actually funny that you mentioned that because I was talking to somebody pre show about that. And what they had said is, Apple comes out with this sub and then gives it 2 USB C ports so that you can plug two HomePods directly into the wall or something. I don't know if that is what they're going to do. But that would certainly be interesting. It'll definitely help with the idea of, I want to have stereo speakers, but I need two outlets if they decided to go that route. So who knows? MICHAEL: Yeah, I'm really excited to see what they do. I mean, if they bring out a HomePod sub, I will press that Buy button immediately. I'm not kidding that if they did that, you know, I would buy a home pod sub. And it kind of makes sense, guys, I think that's actually probably what they're going to do. Because it would make money for them. If you had to buy two HomePod Minis and A HomePod sub. Let's price the sub at $200. They're making $50 more off of you then if you bought one HomePod. Now, granted, they're not going to make 600 or $700 if you had to buy two regular HomePods. But, who's gonna do that anyway? TAYLOR: Right. JASON: Yeah, that's true. I think though, the only downside to this is, as it stands right now, if you were looking to buy HomePods, new, that would do Dolby Atmos, you can't, because that was a feature specific to the bigger HomePods. And I don't know if it's because the eight is more powerful than the S5 or whatever CPU the minis have inside, I think it's the S5 or if it's just that the Mini. , I mean, the big HomePod has more microphones, and it's not limited to the chip. But as of right now, you can't buy new home pods directly from Apple. If you want to do Dolby Atmos. MICHAEL: actually you can for right now during the time of this recording, but. JASON: I didn't even see a link in the store for the HomePod when I last looked. MICHAEL: So I just looked, and they're still in the Apple Store app for 299. You can pick either one. JASON: Oh, they have the Space Gray ones back? MICHAEL: Yeah, they're showing both of them, at least when I looked it showed a picture showing both of them. JASON: Oh, that's interesting, because I knew for a while that they only had the white ones around. And it's very interesting then that I couldn't get to them. Because on the Apple Store, on Apple's website, if you wanted to see the HomePods, the only way it was able to find them is by going under the Apple Music link. And they talked about the HomePods and the AirPods and the AirPods Max. The only HomePod they listed was the HomePod Mini. Whereas the big HomePod used to be there. So that's interesting that they still show up in the Apple Store — MICHAEL: Yep, they are in the Aplle Store app. Yeah. JASON: And of course you can buy them from other retailers. It's not just Apple that sells the HomePods but MICHAEL: And since they're discontinued, I would wait so you can get them from Best Buy or somewhere else where they will be much cheaper. TAYLOR: Yep. JASON: Just keep in mind, if you're going to go that route, that we don't know how long Apple is going to support the big HomePods with software updates, even — All we know is that they are still going to support them. MICHAEL: Alright, well, that's gonna do it for our show today. Jason, to end us off for today, where can people find you online? And what's your pick? JASON: So my pick is, funnily enough, not an Apple product, but rather a Google product. MICHAEL: Ah, just wait. It'll be discontinued at some point. TAYLOR: Probably Well, next week. JASON: Specifically, my pick is talkback version 9.1. And I pick it because it enhances talkback by allowing you to use multi finger gestures. Finally, it has a Braille keyboard. Although, the Braille keyboards been there since 8.4 I think it was? But I really find I like the multi finger gestures. I like the new unified talkback menu. And it's just, I just love this version of talkback compared to the older ones, because I can disable the angular gestures and the proximity sensor silencing speech. I can turn that off now because you can now tap with two fingers to pause speech. MICHAEL: Oh, that's fantastic. JASON: And the magic tap gesture for iOS users is there. And so it's really nice. You know, they don't have the rotor as such. I mean, you can't rotate two fingers on the screen or whatever, but they definitely do have an easy way to navigate, granularity and stuff now and it's all customized Pretty much. So talkback 9.1 it's pretty nice. So that is my pick. As far as where people can find me, you can find me producing content for iAccessibility, you can email me at Jason@iaccessibility.net. And you can also follow me on twitter at jde 1. I know that I have been giving my Facebook out in past episodes, I have decided that I will no longer give that out. I no longer have the app installed. So yeah, those are the ways you can follow me, find me email emailing me and following me on on Twitter. And if you catch me in clubhouse, then feel free to say hi, MICHAEL: All right, Taylor, what's your pick for the week? And where can people find you online? TAYLOR: Okay, so my pick is a little technical. So I'm going to explain it. I pick generate press. And for those who don't know, Generatepress is a WordPress theme. And a WordPress theme is basically a thing that will help enhance the visuals of your site. So it basically helps make your site look the way it looks. In a short version. I mean, like a short description. So what it will do is it is really awesome, because you can customize every part of your site. And the cool part is that it's fully accessible. There are two versions free and premium. The free theme is literally just you go download it from wordpress.org theme directory, and the paid one is a paid plugin. I believe it's 59 a year or what? I can't rember the lifetime of like 249 lifetime Michael? MICHAEL: I didn't see a life. Yeah, I think it's 250 lifetime TAYLOR: Okay, so I really love Generatepress thanks to Michael Babcock and dimasi Thomas for mentioning those to me in a Clubhouse room. Where you can find me online, I'm all over the web. Literally, I have a YouTube channel that I would like you guys to check out, Taylor's Tech Talks. And that also has a podcast now. So if you like hearing from me, you can hear from me and both of those places. I also am on Twitter and clubhouse you can email me at Taylor@iAccessibility.net. And follow me on Twitter, Taylor_arndt22. And I am also producing content for iAccessibility. MICHAEL: Alright, so my pick for this week is a book series I'm reading called Expeditionary Force. And the first book in this series is called Columbus Day. The author is, I believe his name is Craig allanson. And he he has written several books in this series. And it's an awesome, awesome book series, The sci fi series about aliens taking over Earth, and about how humanity kind of steals a ship and goes out in the galaxy to kind of protect Earth. So there's an AI That's hilarious. And I'm not going to give anything more away about the series. But check it out. Highly recommend it. I'm on the third book right now. And I've been reading it for about two weeks and each books about 15 hours on Audible. So that tells you how dedicated to this series I am. So highly recommend it. As for where you can find me. You can find me producing content for iAccessibility. You can email me at mikedoise@iAccessibility.net. I'm Mike, always on Twitter, and on Facebook, just search for Michael Doise. And you go to Michaeldoise.com from my website, and I have a YouTube channel that I'm trying to make time to work on. And you know, I have content everywhere. And yeah, just very excited to be on clubhouse. I'm there as well. So find me on clubhouse. Just search for Michael Doise, and we even now, here's an announcement. We have a club. We're all fancy and everything we have the iAccessibility network club. In fact, after this recording, we will be on clubhouse doing a after episode kind of a discussion to talk about these things. So come hang out with us on clubhouse as we talk about today's episode. So we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the IiACast. And we'll be back in two weeks for another episode. And it's been awesome getting to talk about all these things with you guys, Jason and Taylor. Want to thank everybody that's been on the stream and everybody that will listen once the episode comes out. And we will be back next time for new episodes. So until then, take care and keep playing with new technology. JASON: This show has been brought to you by the IACast Network. We love hearing from you. Email us at feedback@iaccessibility.net. Got twitter? Follow us at iaccessibility1. Facebook, search for IAccessibility. Download our free apps for IOS and Android and keep up with all of our content at iaccessibility.net. If you'd like to donate to our show, hit the payPal button on our website, and get early access to our outtakes with a donation at patrion.com/iacast. Thanks for listening

Today, Lucy Branch talks to Jason deCaires Taylor, who is a sculptor, environmentalist, and professional underwater photographer. He has permanent site-specific work spanning several continents and predominantly explores submerged and tidal-marine environments. He's the only sculptor in the series who does not work in bronze, but I can't hold that against him because his work is utterly fascinating. He has a deep understanding of the crisis that humanity is facing with the damage that they're doing to the environment. The fact he enables expression of this through his underwater sculpture is well worth listening to. Join us and BE INSPIRED BY SCULPTURE. You can find images of Jason deCaires Taylor's work and a transcription of the interview at the Sculpture Vulture Blog - SCULPTURE VULTURE If you are looking for a new book, the novel mentioned in this interview is currently available free from Sculpture Vulture. This podcast was brought to you by Antique Bronze, Specialists in the Conservation and Restoration of Sculptural and Architectural Features Snippet from the interview: Lucy: Have you always been creative? Jason: No, not necessarily. No, I actually started my art career much, much later on in life. I studied sculpture at university, but then, after that, I sort of did a whole range of different professions, none of which were particularly creative. But it was only later on in life that I managed to, you know, make it a full-time profession. Lucy: What sent you off to art school then? Jason: Oh, yeah, certainly. I mean I come from a family that...you know, there's many, many painters and sculptors and, generally we've always been involved, in some way, in the creative arts. But yeah, I think it was a really, sort of, natural choice for me to go to university. You know, when you're at that age and you're, sort of, weighing up all the different options of what to do in life, I kind of just went with what I enjoyed the most and what I loved doing, and it was certainly art. Lucy: So, a family, being artistic, who were quite happy for you to do that. That's not always the case. Jason: No, I was very lucky. You know, I had parents that really encouraged me to, sort of, follow my own vocation. Yeah, some people are not as fortunate but, for me, it kind of really worked out. Lucy: What did you do after you left university? Jason: Many different things. It was quite, sort of, an interesting path. I mean I studied sculpture and ceramics at Camberwell College of Arts. And after that, I actually had that dreaded feeling, like, "Oh my god, you know, how am I going to make a living out of this?" I actually found it quite... you know, the equation of taking on jobs maybe that I didn't like too much but they paid the bills. I always wanted the creative part to be free and not constrained in any way, which, I suppose, everybody does. But, practically speaking, it's not always possible. So, I really turned against that and I thought, "I'm just going to try some other different types of jobs and see what I enjoy doing."

Cette semaine je vous offre une très belle jasette avec Jason Noël! Un Acadien qui a déserté l'Acadie dès un jeune âge pour finalement éclore au Québec ou il a vécu des expériences incroyables en croisant Céline Dion, Véronic DiCaire et Le Cirque du Soleil!Jason nous parle aussi de son implication dans la communauté LGBTQ de Montréal, la raison de son retour en Acadie et il nous annonce qu'il ne chômera pas ici haha!Un gros merci Jason pour ton temps et surtout ta transparence!

Welcome to the Recruitment hackers podcast show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry. Brought to you by Talkpush,  the leading recruitment automation platform. Max: Okay. Hello everybody. And welcome to the recruiter hackers podcast by Max Armbruster. And today I'm pleased to welcome on the show the global talent acquisition capability leader at Accenture, Jason Roberts. Welcome Jason. Jason: Thank you. And thank you for saying all of the words in that title. I know it's a lot. Max: Can we mix them around? We can move them.Jason: You got it exactly right and t's a bunch though.  We were just talking and it's a whole lot of words. I'm not sure that it says anything. So, What that means is that I have a pretty fun gig and that I'm responsible for processes and technologies and how we do recruiting for Accenture's customers. And we will do that for large organizations where we hire several hundred thousand people per year.So we get to try out lots of technologies. We have a pretty nice clean standard process that we work from. And I get to, to be a part of that and work with smart people every day. It's good.Max: Yeah. Fantastic. You said a few hundred thousand people every year. And I guess that number is getting bigger than ever now where the industry is kind of figuring out how we're going to get these 30 plus million people back to work in North America and I don't know, it must be hundreds of millions worldwide. So the pressure is on to, to deliver you know, I'm gonna say a good, maybe a decent experience for most of them. Jason: Well, what's interesting is what I worry about with, with COVID is that candidate experience will stop being a priority because candidate experience is a big deal when you've got 3% unemployment and it's necessary in order to, to achieve the hires that you need to achieve. But when there's 25% unemployment or 20% unemployment, you don't need candidate experience, people just need jobs. So it's, it's one of those things where if I'm worried that we might lose ground in the candidate experience side of things. I think we all want to be in a position where we treat people well, and we had started seeing real improvements in that space. And it was because companies were making investments in the right things in order to make it happen.  I'm hoping we get to continue that, but there's a, I think there's a real risk that we'll take a step backwards in that space. Max: Yeah. I've definitely noticed that people are not getting back to candidates as fast as they should be and positions are being kept open even though they're not real. And so it's kinda like candidates sending beautiful offer letters and resumes and hearing nothing back, hearing crickets.On the plus side, the candidate experience is improved by the fact that companies are not defaulting to asking people to come physically in person. And when you consider how time consuming that can be and demanding, that can be, well.. We were meeting in person. It was a lot of work for me. I mean, I had to take a plane to come and meet you. Jason: Well, no, you didn't have to. I was always great with being on video if you want to do that.  I found that suppliers really wanted to meet in person. And I've worked remotely for over a decade, probably 13 years now, something like that, that I've worked remotely. And I was completely good being on phone and people would just would want and meet, man. Okay, well, I'll meet with you. You know I actually had an office for the sole purpose of meeting with suppliers when they came into town. That's the only time I went to the office when I met with somebody that came in town to meet me.Max: I remember that office. It was, it was a, We Work Jason: It was a We Work, We Work, right. That's why I only went there every once in a while. I just, I would reserve a conference room. And I think you, you came back to the actual inner sanctum. You saw the actual office. Yeah. Max: Yeah. Well I know you have a very cool job with Accenture today and you had a very cool job with Randstad before.  Can you tell for our listeners, give us a quick overview of, where you come from and how you got into this space? Jason: Oh, gosh. Yeah. So I started recruiting, my age will show for sure. 1997. Was my first,  my first piece of recruiting work.I was, I had a person, a friend that I knew... The internet was still pretty new. Right. So,  like I got email for the first time in 1994, I think.  So it was, it was still relatively new and a friend of mine said, Hey, I'm a recruiter. And I, hear you can find things on this internet thing. Can you help me with that? I said, well, yeah, I can help you search the internet. So I became an early sourcer and it was with a staffing firm and,  that sort of, I progressed over a period of time so that, so that ultimately, I, I worked for the staffing firm full time then,  did some consulting then I spent about seven years with Cisco systems and started out as a recruiter. I recruited Sales and sales engineers for them. Ultimately we built our own applicant tracking system back then there were no web based ATS everything was client server. So we thought, okay, well we're the backbone of the internet we should probably have something that's a web based deal. So we built our own and it was my job to be sort of the functional expert on that. And I worked in HR IT for a little while, built my own ATS with Cisco. And that was fun. Max: 2003 ish around that. Jason: Yeah. That's about right before Taleo showed up.Max: Yeah, it must have been frustrating to see the startup Taleo pick up all this business thinking... Jason: Yeah you know what, we built my module and of course dot com bubble burst along the way. And things slowed down a little bit in recruiting. And we built the module that was basically how we take job orders and approve things and we hadn't built a lot of the candidates stuff yet. And Taleo came out and with a few other things there and and we were like, Oh, these things are way better. Let's not build the rest. Let's just find a way to connect to these other deals. And that's what we did. We never finished, we just did the sort of requisition piece. It was called cafe rec, was the tweaks that..Max: Back then recruiting happened mostly in Starbucks. Jason: Well, apparently  that's how it worked. It was a good thing. And, I learned a lot. Along the way, I became a certified project manager and it was great and then I had a boss that told me, you know, I'd become the operations leader for Cisco. And my boss said, you can either have my job, which I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. Or go to a place that does recruiting for a living. And I said, Oh, that's not a bad idea. And I'd outsourced our recruiting along the way. And I was responsible for the relationship between outsource company and Cisco and I played that sort of client side role. So the company that went through the RFP process, they actually told me no, they said, yeah, I don't think we can help you much. What you're trying to do is, is really not exactly the right thing.And there were a hundred percent, right. Like it was the, the worst conceived RFP and a terribly conceived sort of a model that we had designed and the only company that came back and said, this is a bad idea, we're going to bow out. We wish you luck and we'll help you with something else the next time. It was Accenture.I thought, man, that took a lot of integrity to do that. So, when I went to look for a job, they were the first people that I called. And, they made a job for me. So I went to work for Accenture, loved that, did that for six years in various roles. And then went to Randstand Source Right. And I loved Randstand Source Right. That was a good time. I, I went over to lead operations for them. And I did that for a number of years, uh, moved on to the, Senior Vice President of Strategy. Uh, it was Strategy and Standardization because a big part of the strategy was to standardize. Um, so that was that. And then, um, ultimately I ended my run there as Head of Technology and Analytics, uh, around the globe and, uh, Accenture is a funny place, man. It, uh, it calls you back at some point. There's lots of us that are boomerang. So we've come back. That's the role I'm in now I really, um, I really like. I remember the guy who had the role when I was here before and, uh, I loved what he was doing and we where he got to spend his time.So I, when that was open, I said, all right, let's do it. I came back back to Accenture. Max: Now, if you could go, you know, you go back 15 years. Um,  um, would you do what I'm doing and start, uh, an ATS company. I started one in 2008, 2009. I was, I think, a few years too late, uh, on my first run. Jason: You know what? I do look back and think, um, I wish I had been a founder.  I have a lot of respect for the founders that I know. And I look back, I think that quite a bit, um, I was, I had a family very, very young, uh, so, uh, we had our first child. I was in that spot. So the gamble wasn't my gamble. It was the whole family's gamble. So I, I never did it. And if I knew, then what I know now I might have, like, I understand the venture capital space. I understand how that all works. And I did, I was just so clueless back then. I had no idea. Um, but, uh, who knows? I have an idea. Maybe one of these days, I'll get to try it out. I do have and idea.Max: Oh, don't do it. Don't do it, Jason. It's the worst, worst thing that can happen to you. No money. Uh, no, uh, I don't recommend it. Jason: Ok, that's good to know! My other founder friends are like do it, do it today! I'm gonna wait until we're not in a, you know, a crisis.Max: Apparently recessions of the best time to start a business. Jason: Well, you know what a bunch of people that did that, did well doing that.  Max: Yeah. Um, it, it sounds like, uh, throughout your career, while you were not an entrepreneur, you were able to tinker and build things and build toys. Um, and I picked up on the job title you shared with us. You said it was a Standardization in it. That doesn't sound too sexy, but there were also, um, some more creative exercises that you were involved in. Um, you were telling me before we started the video that you, learned about the limits of automation and where the humans were needed in an experiment that you ran a year or two years ago. Um, could, um, could you elaborate on that? Jason: Yeah. Well, we're actually experimenting with that right now, even. Um, so the technology exists to fully automate the recruiting process, especially at the, in the lower level jobs. So think retail, uh, warehouse workers, things where you're not making big decisions on the skills and capabilities, but it's more processing someone through with a very low threshold of qualification. So we call those high volume, low skill. And so for those roles, it's possible to fully automate. There's not a lot of discernment involved that needs to be made, a human doesn't need to make that decision on “Do we hire this person or not?” Everyone is qualified if they hit some basic knockout questions, like, can you lift 50 pounds? Literally, “can you have work boots on your first day?” Um, those are the sorts of things you have to, you have to ask them.  So when that happens, uh, I remember I went to one, one interview center for massive distribution, uh, site, uh, one of the biggest in the world, I think. And, um, There's a building for interviews.And I sat down with a lady who had been interviewing in that building, interviewing candidates every day. Um, for, uh, I think it was six years. She had interviewed candidates every single day. And I said, well, how often do you say no to a candidate? And this lady said, “Oh, I've never said no.”She had never said no. She had interviewed for six years and never said no. So when that's the case, that you don't need the interview anymore, right. That discern was done necessary. So we tried this with a fully automated process. And what we learned is these sorts of roles. You always, you have dropout rates at certain points. You know, you're going to have a certain percent that fail the drug screen, way more than you would think if you do white collar work. You hear the failure rate, it would surprise you if that's all you've ever done. Um, But there's a failure rate of drug screen, you know, you're going to have, and then there's a certain number of people that just won't ever show up for the job.And, um, what we learned when we fully automated is we could get people all the way through the process up until the day they're supposed to start and they just didn't show up. They didn't think it was real. Some of them would get nervous when filling out the background, check paperwork, thinking it might be a scam because they're asked for, you know, personal information, social security, and so forth, even though it was from a reputable company, they're worried that it's a scam. So in order to ground the position, we are experimenting with the right place to insert a human contact. So where do you insert a phone call to ground this, to be that it's a real position, a real job for someone? Not because you need to say yes or no, but because they need human contact to feel good about the job.Max: Well, that's what the lady was doing for six years, right? It was, uh, she wasn't saying no, but she was saying here's, here's a human contact. Jason: That's it exactly right. That's what she was doing all the time. Max: Uh, yeah, I I'd like to insert more video in the process where you know, that human contact could be, Hey, check it out You know, here's the, the warehouse where you'll be working. You know, do a little phon, recording, and say, we can't wait to see you on Monday. And that, little video can be, it can feel personal, but it could be actually general, you know, you could send it to everybody. Jason: Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're exactly right. And we're seeing more of that. In fact, we're seeing, um, seeing a shift to video interviews for certain, um, a lot of companies are just using zoom or Skype or not Skype, but Microsoft teams, the Skype, Skype got replaced, uh, Google meets for some, but they're, they're using sort of their conferencing platforms to do that instead of, uh, instead of the the formal sort of modern, higher and higher and things.  But it's a little bit broken, right? When they do that, because they don't have the formal scoring, they don't have, they don't have the staff, the they're not able to what's happening like the candidate, your platform. Um, they it's, it's not as strong of a solution.Um, so I was talking at one point with, uh, With one of the founders of another one of these companies. And they said, they said we're running into companies that have sort of the scrappy solution. And  they're using zoom. And then the ones that are, that were prepared for something like this, um, the adoption rate just skyrocketed.So people, cause video, I always had trouble getting people to use it and getting people to actually lean into it because you still have to review the videos. But once we, um, once we hit this pandemic, everybody seems way more comfortable or, you know, it's become a necessity in their world at least.And they're accustomed to it. Max: Yeah. Yeah. We've, we've done a lot of zoom and team integrations and then, um, have the live video call asynchronous video. Um, I still, I'm still a luxury for, a lot of positions they're more interested in getting people through binary, you know, outcomes or multiple choice questions and getting them to move to a human interview through a phone call. Um, and also still a lot of markets where asking people to log in for a zoom call would be too, um,  demanding on the bandwidth. So they do phone calls instead. And, uh, you know. Jason: Well you're, in markets that where that's a significant challenge. Right? But you guys have WhatsApp integration, correct? Max: Yes. Yes. WhatsApp integration allows for collecting video, but asynchronously, you wouldn't be able to do a live video call connected through the business API. You can do it person to person, in the consumer market, but it's not yet supported for businesses. Unfortunately. Uh, same way that, uh, Facebook picture, you know, otherwise. Yeah. I mean, all those companies, whether you're, you're an ATS and CRM, um, uh, social media or a communication platform, you all have video now and everybody has it and everybody can switch it on and it's relatively cost free. So I don't understand how the Highervues of the world are going to stay in business if their story is we're good on video. So is everybody else.Jason: Yeah, that's true. No, it's true. Max: Yeah. Um, Very commoditized. Jason:I thought they needed to do something different. Um, but yeah, we're we are seeing more video. Um, SMS is big for us in the US um, of course, different mediums elsewhere as well. So, uh, we're seeing a lot of that shift as well.Max: The, um, uh, continuing on what we were talking about, the lady, um, that says yes. Um,  um, do you think her job will still be around in, uh, in 10 years time? Or do you think that, uh, eventually, you know, um, we can go to a full automated process with no human contact. Jason: Um, I think probably not. I think probably her role probably doesn't exist the way it is. What I think we'll end up with is, you know, instead of a 40 minute actually interview candidates were scheduled for an hour, an hour time slot to come in and do your interview. I think we're going to have 10 minutes, um, basically, uh, uh, Welcome calls. They're their introductions. We're welcoming them to the company. “Oh yeah we're ready to make you this offer. It's already been sent to you. Welcome to the welcome home. And here's your, here's all the stuff you need to know. Here's where you show up what you do” but it's a 10 minute make somebody feel good call, um, and not an interview. Max: Yeah, that's a big productivity gain potentially there.Um, and I've seen, uh, for, uh, some people doing group interviews as well. Because then you have that human factor, uh, you know, you were saying, is it real? Well I mean, there's 10 other people logging into the call and I can see their faces and it's probably real. Jason: Yeah, I saw I was, um, there's, uh,  uh, one of the big online retailers, uh, they were doing this thing where they would do a drug swab. This was years ago. This is before I came back to Accenture. Um, they were doing a drug swab. Yeah, as a part of their interview process. So they would have these massive hiring events. They still do it right now, I think. And, um, basically you go, you sit down, you watch a video about working at this, at this place.If you're good with it, um, they have like a long Q-tip. You swab your cheek, it's a drug test. You put it back in the package, you seal it up. You sign an offer letter and you're done, like, that's it. That is the whole, that is the whole process you've been processed and the way that they were paying their suppliers was based on the number of return offer letters and, uh, drug screens that they got.Max: Wow. Well, I mean, I just had to do my first swab, uh, coming into Hong Kong  to check, they were checking for my coronavirus. Uh, yeah. Um, but that uh,  sounds brutal. And I guess these drug tests have had to, I mean, those are private enterprises can ask whatever they want. Right. it's they can decide what drug tests they ask. There's no, restrictions on state law or anything like that. Jason: No, it's strange. You'll have more stringent drug screening requirements for Businesses than the States in which people live. Yeah. So there might be a state where marijuana is legalized, for example, but it's not legal for the drug screen.Well, tell that to the, you know, 18 year old warehouse worker that they're interviewing for those warehouse job, you know, they're really just picking up boxes. They've been moving them from point A to point B. And I'm not sure that whether or not they smoked it makes much difference in that, but that's there oftentimes there's rules that say, yeah, you can't hire themMax: After a stressful day of carrying boxes.Jason: It may be, I don't know, but it's, there are these more stringent things, but if it's legal in your state is if it's legal where you are, I guess nine, 18 year old, usually usual is 21. So 21 year old warehouse worker, I guess she could have a problem. You could, you, it's not as big of a deal in my mind, but the 18 year old, shame on them, they should wait till 21 based on that wall.Max: It should be the other way around. Absolutely. We should have a world where it's illegal in the state, but it's legal as soon as you come inside the company. You know,  Basically an office where we only accept people here who smoke cigarettes all day long. Jason: So you joke, but, um, one of the big tobacco companies I did work with years and years and years ago, um, And the first time I walked in there, I saw the ashtrays on the desks, the whole thing.So, yeah, I don't know if they still do that, but this was way back when. But yeah, it's the only company I ever walked into with ashtrays on the desk, because that had sort of gone by the time I made it into this line of work. Max: Yeah. Well uh, I've experienced that as well.  I've had business meetings with cigarettes, um, in Asia. So  it does feel, uh, like you're, traveling in time when that happens. Jason: Well, I've had business meetings with cigars.  That's a different story. Max: Yes. Yes. I don't get invited to those then. Okay. Um, before we wrap it up, Jason: Max I'm pretty sure that i invited you to one at some point along the way.Max: With cigars? Jason: Yeah. I'm pretty sure along the way. Maybe when we were in San Francisco, but I don't know. Max: Oh, I missed it. Well, okay. Talking about the, uh, the current events and where you see the market going a few months ago when, uh, the world uh, was collapsing. You, told me that the RPO industry had rebounded strongly in 2008 and 2009 and had its best run right afterwards and gave me some hope for your industry, our industry. Uh, coming out of the coronavirus pandemic, um, um, has your, um, yeah.  Are you on track with your predictions or, um, or you, uh, surprised with, uh, the pace of the slowness of the recovery, I guess, um, how do you anticipate the next few months will pan out for people in staffing and in the RPO world in particular?Jason: Um, so yeah, uh, I don't know what the starting point of the sort of rebound is. Right? So coming out of the 2008 slowdown, um, 2009, when companies started bringing you back. Uh, employees, um, the recruiters came back first, right. And, uh, when the recruiters came back, the ramp began very quickly. And a lot of times they said, okay, well, let's bring people back, but via outsourcing. That's why outsourcing grew so much at that time. What's difficult about this one is we're not yet at the place where I think we're ready for the rebound. I think  um, we're still sort of in the low point. Uh, and we're, nobody's really sure when, we sort of swing out of this thing, I'm confident that we will, right?I'm confident that yeah. Eventually everybody gets to take off their mask and go back to their jobs. And there are some hurdles that have to be reached along the way for that to happen. So I'm confident that the world will go back to what we were accustomed to one day. Um, but it's not something that happens, you know, in three months or four months, it's something that happens, uh, over a long period of time.Max: There's a cycle to recruitment. And normally, you know, end of the summer, everybody gets ready for the big shopping push towards the end of the year. Jason: October. Yeah. Max: Yeah. So now is when people need to, normally when they start ramping up and start you know, setting up the machine. You're saying well, maybe it's taken a little longer this time.Jason: Well, what's funny is the online machine is ramping like you wouldn't believe. So the people who do your online shopping through, and then who fulfill those orders on the back end. Yeah. That that's going strong. It hasn't slowed down. In fact, um, It's where we're seeing the most competition for workers, uh, warehouse workers are right now.Like it's like a software developers and Silicon Valley in the early two thousands. Max: No, I don't know if I want to go into a, you know, carrying boxes or data science. Jason: Seriously. What I think is going to happen is those wages are going to start increasing really significantly. Much to the chagrin of my customer base, but they, I think that, um, you know, we're, we're being asked in some cases to monitor, um, uh, to monitor salaries or offers like what the, the offer that people are making to candidates on a daily basis. Because Amazon, when you drive past has billboards that say I'm offering X number of dollars per hour and they change. And sometimes they'll change uh, there'll be a different number when you go into the office from versus when you come back and yeah. Yeah. If that's how fast this, this thing is moving and it's not going down, it's all going up. Uh, and the reason that we think that is that, um, These jobs used to be the jobs that were, you know, the next level, they were the good paying jobs. If you didn't have an education necessarily, um, but uh, you wanted something that could actually pay your bills. Um, it's sort of the, the first job that was able to do that most of the time, um, you know, just above you would see the grocery stores and things paid just above minimum wage. And these jobs were always several dollars per hour or more.What's happened is Target, Amazon, even Walmart now have pushed that based salary up to, you know, if anyone wages somewhere in the eight or $9 range, they've pushed to 13 or 14, a minimum wage, the California minimum wage, I think through the end of this year, end of next year. Uh, it will be $14, right? Max: So they as high as high as, as a logistics or, yeah.Jason: Right. So it's, it's now you can, you can either, you can either work in a really, uh, challenging environment in a warehouse where you're lifting things a bunch and you're, um, it may, it's probably climate controlled. They've all added climate control, but there's these big Bay doors. So where the trucks have to pull in. So, uh, it's you can't get that completely cool or, uh, completely warm in the winter time. Um, so you've always got to deal with the weather to some degree when that, when that happens, you can't have total climate control. So you've got those jobs that are uncomfortable and require more physical activity versus, you know, the, the grocery store chain, the, uh, big box retailer, those, those other ones paying the same amount of money. So all those people that have to work with your packages from the Amazon people who have to load them to the, uh, delivery drivers, to the, uh, uh, you know, the UPS guy, whoever, um, all of those, workers, um, they're in great demand. Cause there's more, we need more of them, but their salaries are deeply compressed because of what's happened with all of the retail salaries. Yeah. Max: Yeah. Well I'm, um, you know, from an economic standpoint, I think increasing minimal wages, does uh, accelerate the pace of automation and ultimately, um, force companies to automate more. Uh, so that's probably the response as well as, you know, um, in the short term an increase in, uh, and paper hour, but we know that, um, it's going to drive more automation and will eventually, potentially cost a few jobs. Uh, but if those are the hard jobs, um, that may not be such a bad outcome, it's just that, as you were saying if you have no education, um, and you need to pay the bill, those jobs are very precious. So I don't know. Um, I'm not, uh, a policy guy, but, uh, um, it sounds like you're in the right market. Even though you're fighting some, uh, difficult trends. Jason: It's fascinating, right. If it were easy, the clients wouldn't call us to help. Right? They'd be able to do this themselves. Max: So many times after eight hours in front of my webcam I'm like, Oh man, I wish I was outside doing physical work and I always thought that that would be like a good employee branding employer value proposition. Come in to work in our warehouse and check out, our guns, you know?Jason: You know what you need to do? You need to go, and I don't know about tha EVP, but the next time you feel that way, go dig a ditch and see how you feel afterwards. Because one time I at one  was hiring people who would bury the lines for the phone company and they literally were ditch diggers and I could not think of a worst gig. And they, uh, so every time I, when I look at this, I think. I could be doing that job. That would be terrible. Yeah, it's exhausting by the way. Max: I, uh, when I was, uh, 16 years old, I had a chance to go work in, um, an, a modeling agency to just to do intern work. But then my mother insisted, I go instead, go work in our plastic factory so that I would understand the cost of physical labor. And so  I did end up going to school afterwards and pursuing an education. Jason: Wow, How old were you when you could go to the modeling agency? Max: 16. Yeah, peak of my purity. Jason: At that age. I think, I think your mom might not have done the right thing. Max: Um, I'm pretty sure she will not be listening to our conversation, but, uh, if you are, I'm still so grateful for, uh, for your choice, mom, and I'm very grateful for your time, Jason. Today and in previous conversations, helping, helping me understand the macro trends and the limits of automation. Uh, thank you very much for joining us today, uh, on this podcast and looking forward to our next chat. Jason: Happy to do it. Thanks. Max: A treat talking to Jason Roberts from Accenture and, and learning about the new dynamics of the marketplace currently shaping, uh, North America with the pickers and the people working in logistics in higher demand than the engineers of the Silicon Valley.Who would have guessed? And if, uh, if you liked this interview, please subscribe for more on recruitment hackers, podcast, and share with your friends. Hope to see you here again soon.

Business Asset Protection with Jason Popelier Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. I've got a fantastic guest, he’s going to be talking about asset protection and how to change the model of your business to make sure that you are considering things you have between the items that are bringing you in money, the items that are costing you money are definitely separated, as well as not just from the accounting perspective, but also from a bit of a twist on it, bringing in insurance and all sorts of other things into it. So, I’ve have Jason here from FWO Chartered Accountants. So, Jason, what is the number one reason that you'd want to make sure that you are considering when reviewing the model of your business or making sure that you get a change? When do you go from sole trader to company to then having several companies or a Trust Company to make sure that you have asset protection? How do you know, when's that aha moment? Learn more about business asset protection at dorksdelivered.com.au Jason: Good question. The thing that I always start with any of my clients or new clients or potential clients are their goals. To start with, I don't really care what their structure is currently, I start with what they’re trying to achieve? And their current business structure (makeup) currently enable them to achieve that? I ignore what's been set up in the past because there's a lot of businesses out there who have the wrong entities, or have the right entities but they’ve structured it in the wrong way as well. Imagine a business that has higher risks, let's say the construction industry. Even though most of my clients are professional services, I have quite a few construction clients and they have millions of dollars' worth of equipment. There's a lot of businesses out there who look at the costs of setting up or maintaining two entities and decide to hold all assets all under the same entity, they want to save costs, technically the do but at a cost of increased risk. Realistically, it's not that much more to set up a new entity, especially when you consider the cost if you actually lose everything. These businesses have to maintain a minimum asset level for the licensing rules and the minimum assets are set on their turnover. But you can imagine that if something went wrong, and the business essentially got tanked, and it was out of their control, because they were a subcontractor to a bigger guy who deliberately withheld cash flow, it happens a lot, especially in the construction industry. if withheld for five months, they will essentially have to go into either voluntary liquidation or forced liquidation because they can't pay some of their subcontractors or staff as well. They will lose everything. And the other person just goes, great, one less creditor to pay. If they had structured the situation a little bit differently, let's just say they had a warehouse that held the equipment, they could have that in a separate entity, which is its own legal entity. Those separated assets can be protected in that sense. To cover costs and replacements, the trading entity can have, in normal terms, a cross charge for leasing of those assets and facilities. The difference now is those same assets are not subject to the same risks of the trading business, even if they’re ultimately still commonly owned. Looking at the types of structures, the reason you would have a proprietary limited (company) scenario versus a sole trader or partnership structure scenario is a sole trader (and partners) are liable to their share or the entire project, depending if they're partners default. Limited, by itself means that there's a limitation on liability. You automatically have less exposure than operating by yourself or in partnership. Then if you use multiple structures that are limited in their own rights, then there might be a further set of layers for protection. I went on a bit of a tangent around protection after what goals they're trying to achieve. Reviewing a client goals and objectives. If a client wants to retire at 50, actually let's go up to the new norm, retired at 60 because you probably realize the same as myself, by the time we get to retirement age, we'll probably be 75 or 80, so let's be realistic. Josh: If doctors can increase it, the amount of time we can live, the retirement age would just be 10 years prior to that. Pretty much. Jason: E xactly, and people will work longer, there's technology we can utilise as well in addition to medical advances. So, it might be a little bit later, but let's just say the goal instead of retiring at 50, is now 60. Because the 60 is the new 50 in terms of retirement age. To get there, we need to decide what that looks like and there is a combination of superannuation in there. We need to protect that in some sense, this may be around your investment strategy, to not be too aggressive or to have a balanced fund, depending, and the closer we get to retirement, the less risk we put into our investments. Talking about risk and protecting that, one of the greatest assets for business owner is the business itself. And it has the highest potential to create the most value out of any asset they are other than themselves, right? So why don’t business owners give more consideration to risks? We forget that we, as a person are our own greatest asset. No one else can replace us. And a lot of people forget that. You can actually insure that as well. But if you're in control of your own business (instead of being an employee), it's co-related. So there has to be an element of your business, essentially making up that retirement age, and that goal. And we look at that and go, okay, what is your business look like? And how can we de-risk that particular business or set of businesses, as people might have a portfolio of multiple. Referencing an example ... there was client I worked with a couple of years ago. They had about 26 entities that were trading, so you can imagine if they trade in over 26, we're talking the group that was 100 plus entities. Little bit complicated. We had to slice and dice and put appropriate levels of protection while grouping into pools because of those 26 trading entities, only about six or seven of them were actually making real decent money, but you got to look at each business in its own right, not as a big pool. Breaking down a business, you look as each and challenge, how can we achieve these goals? Start with an element that you've got to focus. Look at what products you have and how you have an advantage in the market, why people want to come and work with you. And this could be around branding and protecting that. Also consider elements through technology, and how do you protect those items or services? This is when cyber security would come into place. Josh: For me to understand, I guess any of our listeners, I guess that would mean like, if you have a house and you chuck security cameras on the house, and an alarm system is going to reduce your premiums. And similarly, if you have a business that has a bunch of IT equipment, and then you decided to make sure that you had someone else that was taking a level of accountability. Like for instance for us, we charge a set price per month, and then we guarantee their uptime. If they go down, we pay them while they're down. So we guarantee they're up. Now, so that in a sense kind of sounds like an insurance policy, but we make sure they have certain levels of protection, they have certain types of antivirus, they have certain types of networking monitoring. So if you have any of that sort of stuff, that would have to reduce the premium sound when you're looking at cyber insurance, is that right? Jason: Exactly, there's always an element. But yeah, it's a contributing factor. And if its contributing factor is significantly more, the more risks you have, and the more people you have in your business the change in risks you have to consider. So, you can imagine the risk that are reduced down for a 10-person practice or whatever it might be, versus 100 would be significantly less. And it also depends on the nature of the business and everything else as most insurances would factor in. Josh: If we look at like toll, toll recently, and in Australia was under a bit of heat with their hack and it came through a phishing email, for anyone out there that doesn't know what that is, is when someone sends an email pretending, they look like someone else. And then they asked for some coin and they sometimes do it, it might not be like, hey, send money to this Bitcoin address, I have your nudes. That's a very common one, but a lot of the time be more like, congratulations, you've just qualified for a business bonus, as long as you just fill out this form, and it comes from your director, your KPIs had being met appropriately, or whatever it is, and it looks quite legitimate if they've been doing something that's been a targeted attack. With toll hack, what could they have done differently? And what can we learn from that? From your perspective, what could they have done differently to remove the immediate problem as well as the overall not being hacked? Or at least having something there to fall back on? Jason: Good question, and what I’ll do is give you an example for part of that using what I do myself in my own business, because it's easy to explain how you've mitigated your own risks. A lot of businesses aren't taking cyber threats too seriously and that's just ridiculous. Australia is at a high risk in Cyber because of this. In my practice, we started with a quarterly, it's about biannual now, review of the cyber risks and everything that's involved. We've got a cyber risk manual and what's expected. And we also run systematic tests that we don't tell the staff. Josh: Phishing simulators and stuff like that? Jason: Exactly, phishing simulators. Exactly. We essentially have sporadic phishing emails sent to staff just to see what they do. And it's disappointing that I would say a high percentage maybe 10% - 20% would actually fail sent phishing but what that enables is a conversation with that person and identifies that they need further education around these risks. Josh: Do you give training and stuff like that after that's been found? Like you're obviously analyzing and have the data to be able to see this person could done whatever they didn't from there, yeah? Jason: Exactly. I might do part of the training myself. Some of my team will do part of it. I also educate my staff to obverse how I sound in my communication. If it doesn't sound like how I communicate in my words, isn’t logical in what I'm asking, is what I’m asking out of the business norm and if it is then don’t respond etc. Worst case, if they’re unsure, get on the phone and speak to me or speak to the Practice Manager. And it's about that education. It's about how many steps we can put in place to make sure it doesn't break or fail. So that's something that a larger organization definitely needs to do, they definitely need to assume that their staff will make mistakes because they are human, and test those mistakes to see who is making mistakes and at what levels and where you might need to educate. Because you can imagine a phishing simulator around cyber can globally be applied at a very low cost, at a very low cost compared to the impact. Josh: Sent to thousands of emails. Jason: Exactly, exactly. Compared to the impact that that one failure could potentially make. Using a recent example with TOLL. Their huge mistake cost millions upon millions upon millions of dollars. So that would be one of the key cyber takeaways that just gobsmacked me that, a dozen, a dozen major cyber hacks, right, it gobsmacked me actually that an organization like TOLL hasn't implemented something like that. But at the same time, it doesn't surprise me because the larger the organization, the more things get lost and the slower things move. There's also an element of embarrassment as well as it goes up the chain. This kind of embarrassment is actually not as bad as some of the Scandinavian countries which are very chain of command minded where they want to follow suit from the top, and they're not encouraged to identify errors and mistakes, which is why Volkswagen got themselves in a bit of a heat and it's also on. Josh: This is on the carbon monoxide output on the vehicles. Jason: Exactly. Which they actually knew about years ago but no one ever explained it because it was going against what the top dog wanted to do. You can even trace this type of mentality to why Nokia phones failed. Josh: I'm pissed off, I can't change my phone cover anymore. It sucks! Jason: T he good old Nokia phone that you could throw against the wall and pick it up and put it back together and it still works. Josh: And last five days on a battery. Jason: Exactly. But going back to the issues, there's an element that you have to address from a culture perspective. You have to encourage reporting if there are breakages to report. This means people don't get penalized for reporting, if they are then they won't report. that's a key thing. From a cultural perspective, TOLL could have done better. From a systems and operations, TOLL could have done better. How you handle the media, also TOLL could have done better. So, to de-risk a situation, there are specialists who organisations deal with and predominantly PR, but they might have a mix or organisations who help you identify risks of certain conversations and everything else. You know, one of the scenarios that we saw that was highly impacted in Queensland, especially southeast Queensland, was Dreamworld with the impact caused by a lack of maintenance and then everything else that followed. Josh: You're talking about like three years ago. Yeah, yep. Yep. So anyone else that's listening in overseas that happens to be here, Dreamworld, local theme park that had a bit of an issue with a lack of maintenance and some of the processes, it might have just been a few series of unfortunate events paired with lack of maintenance and lack of training, but there was a rough River Rapids ride that flipped over and it killed four parents, wasn't it? Is that right? Jason: Yeah, i t killed four people. There was a brother and sister you know, a mother or something and a father. It shouldn't have happened. The ride flip diver and essentially crushed them and it was a very tragic event. Looking back and reflecting from a risk point of view, there were risks everywhere in that scenario. We're talking about a listed company here too. There was a risk where the head of group was essentially bleeding cash out of the business from a daily basis that maintenace wasn’t allowed/maintained. They should have just cut off the couple of failed businesses. They weren't even treating the business itself as a separate business unit. In relation to the media, I know for a fact the PR company that they initially engaged resigned because they (Dreamworld) wouldn't follow their advice. And this is the same risk that TOLL made with the media. They actually engaged but they chose not to listen, and then their PR company decided to eject as fast as they possibly can, because it's a reflection on them as well. And there was a number of highly critical issues when speaking with the media about certain aspects. Giving themselves a bonus of millions of dollars a week later from the incident, just a bunch of really … really bad decision making. For you and me speaking, Joshua, and all the listeners would just go what? How stupid can you be … and this comes down to a bit of greed. So, there's a range of different factors. Josh: Do you think they had like a certain level of god-factor like they've put themselves above what they think is the rules and the law and they've sort of put them into god mode? Why do you think that they made the decisions? Because that way in our boat at some stage, if you at the theme part, I don’t know most of our listeners don't know the theme park, but they must have had some level of normalcy in their life, most people to go okay, how do I look at this and understand that it's going to turn to this. Surely, there's got to be a certain time or a spot where you think, okay, this is your shit decision. What happens? Like what do you think through that hit? Obviously, this isn't obviously what you do. You're not a psychologist, but like, what do you think happened? Jason: I could probably draw on some of my education as well as some of my consulting from corporate finance days where I actually put a value on who (people) to keep in the business from a culture perspective, and this comes back to the business norms. A culture is set by business norms. You (as an owner) might say this is our culture, these are our values, but if you don't practice them, then the people inside the business set business norms. And although we might be very highly surprised these sorts of decisions are made, to them (the culprits), it's only a little incremental difference compared to what their normal it might be. It can explain a lot of things with, you know, some of the famous collapses and really corrupt things in the finance world that occur, including Enron in the US. We kind of look at Enron and go ‘how the hell were these people able to essentially destroy people's lives’ and hold a state (in the USA) ransom for their electricity? This comes back to what their business norms are. If you get encouraged or rewarded for making decisions, that sets a new norm. Heading back to the Dreamworld accident and lack of any maintenance program. They cut the maintenance program to save some cash. The person who just created some extra cash as a reward, the board gives them some of that cash back and as an addition to this reward, they also get promoted. This now sets a shift in the expectations of the business. And the more this type of action occurs, the more normalised it becomes. And when something serious happens, the review the normal in their heads and say ... well, this is the normal, this is what is expected in my world. Everyone else is in my world. So, the impact is not going to be that great. And then they get surprised that the community essentially smashes them for their behavior. And they're like, but I'm just doing what I've been doing for the last however many years, and I'm entitled to that money. And it's just because these business norms that the culture is so disconnected from the community. Taking another slight side tangent, as business owners, we need to engage in the community. There's almost an element of obligation, not just for Australian owned businesses, but for businesses and across the globe as well. Businesses actually survive because we (the people) allow them to participate in the business community for particular cultures. We need to make sure that those types of cultures are engaged with the community and that they’re giving back to the community. The more that you (as a business) shut that window and just focus purely on a couple of variables around money and greed, and other things as well, the more disconnected you’re going to be and the higher risks that will bottle within the business. And that applies across the board. I've seen these issue sit in start-up businesses and they actually have a higher impact on culture and the community when compared to a larger business. If the culture is bad, is actually easier to transform larger businesses culture than a smaller business. And the mid-range businesses have the greatest impact because they're still somewhat nimble, but they can transform. This is just an element of risk in a business itself, and cybersecurity is just another component, while key person risk is another element. Josh: It’s a big one for me actually. When I first started my business, I was the key person, and getting key person insurance for yourself as a business owner as a fuzzy income, let's call it a fuzzy income. If you're reinvesting your money, you could be earning $10 or $10 million. But if you're reinvesting the whole load into your business, and you have no income, then what are you worth and where do you sit with your insurance, and so it becomes a bit of a fuzzy income. And the key person, you can't really get key person, you can correct me, but you can't really get key person for yourself when you're doing this with your income because you're investing into something that you can see as someone who's going to be working. Jason: You can actually insure the key person if they are the business owner; you just have to understand what impact they have and what price this equates to. It’s the same for anyone in a business, you can insure any key person … it’s just a matter of cost. Josh: Okay. So see if I ran a business and I was like a Pty Ltd registered and set up myself as the employee, and I'm just making up a scenario now, but let's say I earned $85,000 a year $80,000 a year just underneath the next tax, that’s $70,000-ish. I mean, I tell everyone, I don't know if that's exactly right now and if you're listening in the future, it might be changed. Anyway so $90,000, if I'm under the $90,000, I say I'm earning that, I'm paying the tax on that but I'm earning nothing, okay, I'm actually earning nothing I'm just able to pay the tax. And then I have some big issue where … and the key person in the business collapses. If the business never actually turned over but paid the tax what is the insurance yet? Jason: Well, you have essentially lied on your application. In this case you're not actually insured, even though you're paying for insurance, and best case they might just refund you. Josh: So the insurance is against the money that comes, not the money that you've paid tax on. Jason: No, no. You have to be truthful on an insurance policy. And if you're not truthful, they can deny the policy itself. if you're not actually earning that, and the business can't pay that about, then your key person insured amount and what you've actually said is a lie. There's an element that if you're taking out insurance, you got to be truthful, because if you're not truthful, they can deny the insurance, and there's no point of taking out insurance in the first place. That's a key thing for the listeners. Separate to that, you've got to define what type of insurance and what risks you're trying to alleviate. Josh: Yeah, of course. Jason: Looking at it, there's business disruption insurance, which is if something outside of the norm that disrupts the business, but you've still maintained all the key people, that's business disruption, noting this excludes pandemics. But that's when the government would step in. And we're lucky in Australia that we have a government that can support us versus other countries. . Josh: Bloody Oath, Mate. Jason: That's it. That's it. We're just lucky to be Australians. But separate to that, a key person insurance is if … let's just say, Josh, you run an IT business, right? You run at least at an IT business. You also have other businesses, but let's just focus on your IT business. Your family essentially owns that business with you, right? Josh: Yep. My emotions are impacted, and their emotions are impacted by my business. So absolutely, we're all together in this. Jason: That's correct. But there's an element that your family owns that business. What happens tomorrow if you were in a car crash, and you died, unfortunately, what would happen to your family? If you've got life insurance, they'll get the life insurance, but nothing else. That’s a risk in itself, right. Hopefully your insurance will cover everything your family needs to survive without you to some degree. They can't replace you, but they can at least financially survive without you. Josh: If I'm a workaholic. That's all I am, anyway. So, it's fine. Jason: Yeah, well that's it, that's it. Imagine now there are other people in the business, right. We’re now talking about other livelihoods, not just yourself, you're just the owner. You could be an employee, but you're the owner. What happens to them? They essentially lose their job. Josh: Our business right now have 12 employees, for instance. Jason: Exactly. So, all 12 employees are pretty much stuffed, right? Josh: Absolutely. Jason: To some degree, the business will just completely explode. If you had key person insurance, an element maybe protected depending on how its shaped. The business could survive because it’s protected. But then the issue shifts to who owns the business after. Does the executor of your estate get involved? if it's a sole owner situation, the insurance proceeds inject into the business may help the business survive until they are able to find someone who has similar skill sets. The business may not be able to survive in the same sense, but it has the ability to survive. Now, imagine the same situation but with two partners. So key person insurance is more to insure the person and business disruption is more to insure for the outside of norm that might happen that's not a pandemic or force of nature or something like that, right? Which is highly unlikely. Except in Australia, apparently, we've had floods, fires, droughts, and Corona Virus. Exactly. All in the last decade. Josh: Jump into the Old Testament and look at what's going next and read it forward. It's just crazy, isn't it? Jason: Exactly, exactly. Jason: I’ve seen in situations after the fact. Not in my case, because I always made sure my clients actually got these sorts of things lined up or else, they won't be clients for too long. And that's just, you know, you either want to follow my advice or you don't. Josh: You’re there for a reason. If no one's listening, what's the point? It's the same as me, like, people aren't listening to the advice we're giving. What's the point of having us here? Jason: I’m there for a reason. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So where I'm going to lead into is by selling insurance. Let's just say you're still in the business but you bring on another partner, and you are 50∕50. Something happened to that partner, and it's worth money in the business and they're 50%, but their estate essentially holds a 50 percent ownership of the business and you can't legally make decisions to some or some decisions because you need voting rights and there's an equal voting right to make a decision on some instances. Day to day you might be able to still operate, but you might be subject to being shackled for bigger decisions or essentially shaping the business where it needs to go or just continuing to operate. I've seen a scenario where an ex-wife from six years ago and I got involved after the fact of essentially- Josh: Divorced for six years, done, legally done. Jason: Legally done. I got involved to essentially sort it out. I'm sorry, I apologise to the listeners, the shit fight that essentially unfolded. An ex-wife who should have been removed from the estate, challenged the estate and essentially tried to control the business to get as much money as she could. If they had proper buy-sell agreements in place, what would happen is the business would be valued at arm's length, then a chunk of money would exit to the estate and the business would just operate without that partner as if they just got ejected from the business. In this scenario, the business could survive, and that is an element of risk when you have business partner, or multi partners. Think about whether something happened to your fellow partner/s, what would the impact be on the business, would it survive? This is your asset as well as their family's asset. Josh: I can say comfortably, my business has been running, when you pointed it out, it has been running for 13 years. And over the 13 years, I had a partner for a while and then not to my want, that all felt fell apart, as a lot of our listeners already know. And when that happened, did that impact the serviceability of our clients? Absolutely. Did it impact the quality of the return on work? Absolutely. Now, would I have been a better person had it then not happened? Absolutely. It all comes down to what are you doing in your life and how does your life affect the business and when you are a business owner, they can absolutely affect. If you guys have been interested in this and you've loved it, make sure to jump across to iTunes and leave us some reviews and we'll speak to you soon. Stay good.

Key Takeaways:03:43 - Self meditation08:47 - Connect with your employees as a salon owner14:22 - Being a salon owner16:36 - Right person for the salon industry18:54 - Why do most salon staff leave their jobs?22:14 - Health is wealthQuotes:“You can be a lot more vulnerable because it's just you, and you're just feeling the feels, you're living within yourself. Sometimes it's hard to do that, personally.” (03:56) (Jay)“When you're left with your own thoughts, then you might be distracting yourself from every single day.” (04:05) (Jason)“No stylists left behind.” (05:20) (Jason)“Bigger groups of people leave more room for diversity.” (06:46) (Gina)“It's important to connect one-on-one with them.” (08:26) (Jay)“If you've tried to force somebody into something they don't want, then find why do that? I mean that's like the dumbest thing in the world.” (10:10) (Doug)“People don't quit salons, they quit leaders.” (13:43) (Gina)“It's crazy, people want to be seen, heard, valued, and want to live a beautiful life. And it's sad. It makes me really sad to read just what people are going through. So I'm really passionate about that, I think that salon owners are the most amazing unsung heroes. We love salon owners.” (18:05) (Gina)“People support what they help create.” (19:49) (Gina)“You shouldn't be a 100% booked, if you're a hundred percent booked, stop.” (22:08) (Jay)“Creating a safe space is my biggest tip, and it's not easy. It's a lot of work.” (24:06) (Gina)

I sat down with world-renowned vegan chef and author Jason Wyrick who has co-authored a NY Times Bestseller "21 Day Weight Loss Kickstart" as well as the book "Powerfoods for the Brain" with Dr. Neal Barnard, MD. Other books he has written are "Vegan Tacos" and "Vegan Mexico". He was the food editor for "Living the Farm Sanctuary Life" with Gene Baur and Gene Stone. He's a coauthor of "Clean Protein" with Kathy Freston and Bruce Friedrich. Jason has published the world's first vegan food magazine, The Vegan Culinary Experience which is now defunct and has been featured in the NY Times, the LA Times, VegNews, and Vegetarian Times. He has traveled the world teaching cooking classes and is the first vegan instructor to teach in the prestigious Le Cordon Bleu program. We talk about being vegan, health benefits, dairy, cheese, his home delivery service of amazing vegan food called The Vegan Taste and his restaurant Casa Terra. Jason gives us such a great insight of his progression of eating like most of the population to becoming a vegetarian and finally a full out vegan. It was such an honor for me, to have such a celebrated chef and author on my show. Because I've eaten his food, this conversation had so much more of a meaning due to my various attempts of being vegan myself. I hope you enjoy this conversation and the knowledge Jason shares with us all from his heart. Jason Wyrick: Vegan Food Delivery Service: The Vegan Taste Vegan Restaurant: Casa Terra Co-authored a NY Times Bestseller: "21-Day Weight Loss Kickstart" and "Powerfoods for the Brain" with Dr. Neal Barnard, MD. Other books he has written are "Vegan Tacos" and "Vegan Mexico"He was the food editor for "Living the Farm Sanctuary Life" with Gene Baur and Gene Stone. He's a coauthor of "Clean Protein" with Kathy Freston and Bruce Friedrich. Connect with Jason: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/thevegantaste/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jason.wyrick.5 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/casaterrarestaurant Twitter: https://twitter.com/VeganChefJason https://youtu.be/6jzSCBvX7PA ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Jason Wyrick: Joe: All right, welcome, Chef Jason Wyrick, this has been a long time coming for me. I have looked forward to interviewing you the moment I tasted the food that was delivered to my house. So here we are and I'm so excited to have you on the podcast and I really appreciate the time and you actually saying yes to me, so thank you so much and welcome! Jason: Well, you're welcome, I appreciate you having me on here. Joe: Yeah man this is a, the way this came about for me was I got a flyer in the mail and it was one of those things like come to this free, healthy dinner to hear some, I don't know, some sort of talk about healthy eating and nutrition. And it happened to be from a nutritionist, a company in town, like an office in town. And I went and then I, I got pulled into it, you know. The food we had was great, but it wasn't necessarily vegan, it was just healthy. But then when I got into the program, which was not cheap by the way, but I felt I was worth it. They started to say, you know, do all this blood work and then we found out my, I knew my cholesterol is always a little high. So their program is doing vegan for 30 days on their menu. And then from there, you, you know, you the hope is you stay with it or you alter it a little bit or whatever, so that's how I got into this. And the problem for me was I literally was so busy I did not have the time to prep my food. It was taking me like half days on Saturdays, half days on Sundays. And I was like, my weekend is shot and I've prepped all this food and, and I, you know, any small amount of time I had was gone. So then I really went on the hunt for trying to find healthy vegan food that I could just literally eat and not do anything with. I had already done, I think I did Sun Basket a while back. You know, all the food prep things that you know Jason: Right. Joe: of and we talk about. So that's how you and I got connected. I, I don't even know how I ended up finding you. I say it was just purely, I was so desperate doing a Google search and I found you and I was like, SOLD! You mean I can just heat it and eat it, right? That's that's your thing, it's just heart and eat. So here we are. So I want to start from wherever you want to start. I know that this was a health thing for you in combination of other things. But knowing the stories that I've read and interviews I've seen of you, that this came about more for a health reason initially for you. And then it just blew up from there and and it became your passion, which is really cool to me, because this is what I preach on this show and on my videos, is that I want people to live or fulfilled lives doing what they love. And it's cool that you went into that direction knowing some of your past, which you can talk about om how this all started for you. So take Jason: I'm Joe: It away! Jason: Sure it was a kind of a winding journey, I think I mean, it, it seems kind of straightforward when you look at it. I was unhealthy, I went vegan, I got my health back. Hurray! But that's, that's really not how it started, I mean. It's starts when I'm a little kid because, I think I didn't eat great, but I didn't eat bad for the kind of regular American diet. Which meant, you know, my mom cooked some of the meals and occasionally ordered out and I played sports all the time, I was always active. So I was a super healthy rail thin kid. And then as I got older, towards the end of high school and in college, I kept eating the same way I had been eating the last few years and last few years had changed because my mom went to work, she got busier and so our food choices changed to, "What, which one of these seven different chicken dishes do you want tonight that I know how to make? or would you like Taco Bell or Burger King or Pizza Hut or something like that?" So when I stopped playing sports all the time and was super active, the calorie and taken and honestly, like the terrible food I was eating, started to catch up with me. And so I, I probably put on 30 pounds from when I was 16 to probably 19 and just kept going up about 10 pounds a year from there. Jason: So I was already getting overweight. And then right at the end to college, I started learning how to cook. So I went to, I went to this really great Egyptian restaurant in Fort Worth where I went to college, had the ah this amazing meal with the first amazing meal I'd ever had. And I was like, "I want to learn how to eat like this!" And I'm broke because I'm in college. So I started to learn how to cook for myself. And then right after that, it was like two months after that, I went vegetarian and that was solely for ethical reasons. No real idea of the health impact or anything like that, that it has. I didn't care at the time, I was just going to keep eating food that was super tasty and not worry about the health part. So, of course, even going vegetarian, a couple gaining weight. In fact, I was kind of a stupid vegetarian, I'll just be blunt about it. I took the meat I was eating and I replaced it with blocks of cheese. So instead of these instead of like these super fatty steak fajitas loaded with sour cream and cheese that I was eating before. Now I was eating cheese lover's pizza from Pizza Hut and the additional topping was extra cheese. Exactly! [laughter] Joe: [laughter] Jason: And that was that was my dinner. I was with someone at the time, she had her own pizza. It was it was terrible. And so I became incredibly overweight. I weighed about 330 pounds and I got type two diabetes by the time I was in my mid 20s. And I was, I was faced with having to take insulin for the rest of my life and in basically starting to deteriorate even more. Like I was already deteriorating, my eyesight sucked, sleeping 10 to 12 hours a day. Everything you can think of with Type two diabetes was going wrong with me. So I was facing having to take medication and deteriorate for the rest of my life, which was probably not going to be that long at this point or changed my diet. And so it's, it's funny because I was, I've been vegetarian for five years and I had, I had heard of vegans, but I didn't really know what they were. And I even made fun of it a little bit.[laughter] Joe: Right. Right. Jason: This was back in the late 90s. And then all of a sudden it's 2001 and I'm faced with having to make this choice, do I do I give up this food that I love, which is cheese, and live a better life or just keep going with the cheese and and it's funny because even though it it sounds like a no brainer, like eat cheese and die or give up cheese and regain your health. I mean, it sounds like an obvious choice, but there is so much there's so much pain involved in a lifestyle change, that the stress of that was really bad in itself and, and going vegan in 2001 when really no one else around me was, was vegan. It meant I had to learn how to cook, I had to learn how to fend for myself, I had to completely change all these foods that I knew how to make and eat when I was growing up. And so it was super stressful at first. And so I relaxed a little bit and decided I was going to give myself a cheat day. So I was going to be a cheating vegan once a week. So every Wednesday night I'd go out and I get all you can eat enchiladas at my favorite Mexican restaurant and they bring them out in pairs they'll bring you two enchiladas at a time. And the first time I went in there, the waiter was like, "OK, yeah, whatever, it cool! He brings out enchiladas, except I eat 14 of them. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Jason: And then they come back the next week and all of a sudden the waiter's like, "Hmmmmm" because I need another 14 enchiladas. So by the third week, the waiters like "I hate you but I have to serve you anyway." Joe: You're like the, you're like that all you can eat buffet, crab, Jason: Right. [laughter] Joe: Leg guy. [laughter] Jason: It's it's probably familial in some way because I know my, my little brother would go to a Mongolian stir fry places and he take the bowl and see how much he could pack in the bowl because it was one pass through. And so he'd, he'd have the regular bowl and it only come up like three inches and then there was like the six inch pile of stuff on top Joe: Oh, Jason: Of the. [laughter] Joe: My gosh. It's. Jason: So there must be something familial about that, that buffet all you can eat thing. I, so I, but anyway, the point is, I, I did that for a few months and even then I managed to start losing weight and my symptoms went away. So I'd be vegan for the entire week, except for this one, one rather egregious cheat meal but it was still just one meal. And then it went to once every other week when I would go to this place. And then once a month. And then I remember the last time I purposely had went to this place in order cheese that I order in the enchiladas and I, it was a weird experience because I looked at them and I realized they didn't taste good to me anymore. They didn't have that, that feeling you get when you cheese that Homer Simpson like, "dooonnuuttt" like when you eat dairy, so I didn't have that anymore. They didn't taste good and I realized I was ordering them out of habit and not because I actually wanted them. So I didn't even eat the enchiladas, I pushed them away, paid the waiter, who probably sighed relief Joe: Right. Jason: that I was getting had their there and that was the last time I ever stepped foot in that place. And at that point, I was a full on vegan, which took me about eight months. And it also coincided with me completely getting rid of diabetes. Jason: And Joe: Incredible! Jason: After the first year, I dropped about 60 pounds and then when I added in some real exercise, I dropped another 60, so I dropped about 120 pounds over two years. Joe: That's incredible. And I think Jason: Yeah. Joe: What people need to understand about you, you're a big guy. Like I know Jason: Yeah. Joe: from the interviews and stuff, 6' 3", right? Yeah, I mean, that's you know, and and I think at one point you said you, you went to school and lived in San Antonio...Fort Worth, sorry. So you're like in steak town. Jason: Yeah, I mean, Joe: Right. Jason: The nickname of Fort Worth is Cowtown. Joe: Yeah, ok, so there you go! Yeah, so that must, the be, that must be hard. It's just the stigmatism with, you know, vegan and yoga and all of those kind Jason: Ok. Joe: Of things. Right. It's tough. Jason: It depends. OK, it was weird because Texas is really interesting. I mean, I grew up here in Arizona but my dad is Texan. And so I was already pretty familiar with Texas before I actually moved there for school and stayed there afterwards. And Texas has this reputation of being big and boisterous and rednecky and it is. But it also has has this huge liberal side and has this huge health side, has this huge vegan side to it. I mean, I remember when I was in college, I went to the Texas Vegetarian Chili Cookoff. And this was in the mid 90s and it was like this huge gathering of people from all over Texas doing this Chili Cookoff. Like Texas had one of the biggest vegetarian societies in the 90s, at least when I was there participating in that stuff. And so Texas is just this really cool mix of all these different things, religion and Atheism and big hair money and rebel activists and steak eaters and vegans and no one is quiet about it. Maybe that's the one thing about Texans is, you know, everybody kind of gets by in the big city but they're, they're friendly but boisterous about that stuff, which makes it really cool. Anyway, that's my tangent on Texas. Joe: No, but that's great, because it's exactly you, you saying that is exactly how it educates people to know that it's not just big hats and boisterous voices and steak and whatever, it's, I had no idea that you would think that long ago people were vegan in the state of Texas. Jason: I mean, I think, I think Fort Worth had one of the first vegan restaurants in the country, which was Spiral Diner that opened up in 2001. Joe: Yes, I don't think anybody would ever know that. So that's, that's cool. So the tangent was great. OK, so you are, this is what year now that you go full vegan? Jason: So that was the, I started the beginning in 2001 and then I was full vegan by the end of 2001. Joe: Got it. Jason: And I think, I think I might be more like a lot of other people with this, like I've, you know, I've written books with a lot of the vegan doctors and usually their message is that's all or nothing proposition. You go from zero to 60. And from a physiological standpoint, you're going to regain your health really fast that way. But if you're miserable doing it, chances are you're going to quit out. And so I think for a lot of people transitioning, as long as they have it in their mind that it is a transition, it makes it easier for people. So that's that's what I did. It took me it took me about eight months to fully transition over. And I tried to zero to 60 approach for Joe: Right. Jason: three weeks, and it, I was miserable. Joe: Yeah, and for me, the 30 day thing I did not find hard, the part I found hard about it was the meal prep and that's literally what was difficult for me. And I even heard you in some other interviews, the good thing that we have going for us these days is that it's, it's much more accepted in the world. And when you go out to a restaurant, there are options that would have never been there 10 years ago. Jason: Yeah, there are plenty of options, Joe: Right. Jason: Which has made it an interesting landscape for vegan businesses. Because I think in the past, vegan's gravitated towards vegan businesses because that was their only choice. And now at least in the Phoenix area, vegan businesses are just one amongst a bunch of other vegan options. Joe: Right, but I think the key and the reason I was so excited to have you on is what helped me get through the, the, the next 30 days that they asked me to do because they could see that my cholesterol was dropping. So Jason: Great! Joe: They were like, will you, "Are you willing to buy into doing it another 30 days? And towards the middle or end of the first, as I think when I came across your website and then it was easier for me to say yes, because I literally just could not afford the time to prep. Jason: Right. Right. Joe: But but besides that, the biggest thing for me was the taste. And I don't know, like this could be a trademark or something that I'm saying, but I didn't know vegan food could taste so good, and you can still Jason: No it's true, Joe: if you want. If it's not taken by somebody, it's all yours. But, yeah, that's what it was for me, man. When I first dug into it and the way I worked with you was that I wanted it spicy, which you were all down for. I think even when I, I got from my doctor what I needed to do, he said, OK, well, if you're gonna get this food from The Vegan Taste, just make sure, ask them if it's low and oil, right?. And it so... Joe: It everything was a yes. Like all, you know, that was when I wrote to you, Yes, you know, it's either low or minimal oil or no oil. And I can get it the way I like it, so you made it spicy, which is the way you said you liked it in email. Jason: Right. Joe: So it was like the perfect marriage. I was like sold! Jason: Yeah, I think that's, that's the key to getting people to make a change. It's about honestly, I think it's like about the in the environment that you put people in. So I know Dan Buettner, who wrote the Blue Zones by it. And one of the things that he told me that really impacted the way I thought about food and getting food to people and the way we treat people, is that the the biggest determinant for someone making choices that let them live a long time was not their willpower, was not a doctor's prescription or anything like that, it was the environment in which they lived. And so if the choices were easy to make, to go out and exercise, statistically speaking, more people would go out and exercise...that way. And so to me, food is part of the environment that you're in. And so the easier I can make it on someone to make a better choice for themselves, the bigger chance they are they're going to have to actually make that choice. And so for me, that's putting ready to eat meals in front of someone that's going to make them happy. Joe: Yeah. Jason: The less you have to worry about it, the easier it is for you to be healthy. Joe: Yeah, it's it was so nice to find the website. It was that, I could hear that sound when the heavens open, I was like "Thank you!". It's the only thing that's gonna keep me on track. Now, you know, before, before we get too deep into this, I'm not full vegan. Since doing nutrition program, I've cut out a lot of, like I would use, I would snack before dinner. I'd be so hungry I'd come home at four o'clock, whatever, and I'd pull out the the block of cheddar cheese and some Triscuits and, you know, just take the edge off. I, I stopped doing that a lot more than I use, you know, it's, it's cut way back to almost minimal, you know, to none. I don't drink, I used to drink half and half of my coffee and now all I use is either oat milk or almond milk. So I've completely switched over to that type of stuff. So while we're on the subject of, of, you know, how this has helped you, why do you think dairy is so bad? Is it just that it's like, was it not meant to be eaten or drank? Is it just like we've created this product that should not have existed? Jason: I think so. I mean, dairy's primary uses to grow a baby. And so you're you're consuming something that's meant to grow another being and as, as adults, we're not, I don't think we're supposed to be consuming foods that are continue endlessly making us grow to that scale. Like I have a five year old daughter, I watch how much she eats and sometimes as much as I do, because she, she's always out there running around and she's, like I look at her in a week later, she's taller and I'm like, oh, my God! And so calorically dense foods are good for her, I mean, that's why human mothers breastfeed and you know, all this other stuff. But then when you stop growing and you keep eating those foods, you're consuming growth hormone and all this other stuff that I don't think we're meant to be consuming. And then, you know, there are a couple other issues that go with it, which it turns out casein, which is the protein in milk seems to be carcinogenic, even, even in that milks appropriate species after their weaning, it seems it seems like the incidence of cancer goes up in that species if they continue to consume milk even from their own species after they're supposed to stop drinking it. And then, I mean, look at us where we're drinking stuff that's meant to grow a baby cow into this big monster cow compared to humans I mean a cow is pretty heavy. Jason: So, you know, there's, there's that it's, it's loaded with fat and it's all if you have cheese, it's all condensed down into this calorically dense product with all these other, all these other ingredients into it that are probably not meant for us to just get fuel. And it's all like if you take milk, milk is this big volume, take cheese and it comes down to  this little thing, all that condensed down. It's like a black hole of food. And then you're you're eating that, so, of course, no wonder you're you're getting fat, you're having arteriosclerosis as you age and all these other problems. So that's why I think the health problem is with dairy. From, from an evolutionary standpoint, it's was a good thing because you could have this nutrient dense food even in times of famine. That's, that was one of the benefits of cheese because cheese was basically shelf stable in a long period of human history when we didn't really have very many shelf stable foods, the same way that after a fashion beer, a shelf stable, just one of the reasons that beer was traded there and there are all these ways to preserve foods during times of famine and we just don't live in that anymore. Joe: Right. So on the dairy part of this, what I guess people have a hard time thinking of how they would substitute a cheese for these recipes, and I know that in you know, you have this enchilada recipe and you, there's I mean, you have a ton of different recipes. What are just some off the top of your head, some substitutes that you do use for cheese? Like, how would someone make a pizza? What would they put on it as their cheese? Jason: You know, it depends. There are a lot of nondairy commercial cheeses out there. I think from a health standpoint, they're good insofar as you're not getting casein and all these hormones that go with it, but I can't pretend that they are health food. Joe: Right. Jason: I mean, it's base, it's like cheese is solidified fat when it's dairy and the non vegan cheeses are still a solidified fat. They just have all the other junk that goes with them. So, you know, if you if you limit that look, if you're going to have a pizza and you have it once a week and you put some vegan cheese that's made out of almonds or cashews or something like that on it, you're going to be OK. If you do that every single day, you're not going to be so OK anymore. You can still be a junk food vegan. In fact, it's easier now to be a junk food vegan than it is to be a healthy vegan, because you can run over to Carl's Jr. and get a Beyond burger, that's, you know, still loaded up with all this fat and it's still a burger where as when I went vegan almost 20 years ago, if I was craving a burger, I had to make it myself. Joe: All right. Yeah, I mean, the creativity Jason: So that's. Joe: That, that you have to come up with for these recipes must be daunting. Jason: I sometimes, but only because when I do a lot of recipes, Joe: Right. Jason: I mean most, most chefs at a restaurant might do 30 recipes throughout the year. If they're really pushing themselves. I think with the delivery service, we're doing 300. Joe: WOW! Jason: Every, every year, at each year, it's different too. Joe: Ok. So you're rotating 300 recipes a year from The Vegan Taste. Jason: And we're just making about as we cook every week. Joe: It's amazing! Jason: Yeah, it's, it's, it's daunting, but it's cool. Joe: Yeah, it's. Jason: Yeah, I mean, and like back to the cheese thing, sometimes it's replacing that, that fatty mouthful, mouthfeel that cheese gives you so you can even use something like an avocado or you can use, what are my favorites is this thing called pipián verde, which is just this ah pepitas and tomatillo puree. It's it's a classic Mexican dip and I'll just use that on enchiladas or we'll make our own cheese at the restaurant, sometimes we'll make it just out of almonds and some other ingredients and we'll make our own queso fresco like that and we make our own mozzarellas and stuff. That's a little laborious, I think, for the for the home cook, it's just getting that, that creamy texture which you can get from nuts and seeds. Joe: Right. Yeah. Because even on the recipes at Casa Terra, your restaurant, I saw that there was I think you have is it brick oven pizzas or just... Jason: Yeah, Joe: Or Jason: We have worked fire Joe: Wood Jason: With Joe: Fire. Jason: Fire pizzas Joe: Right. Sorry. Wood fire. Yeah. And so and I did see one of the recipes are one of the descriptions of the you know, the pizza said mozzarella. So I was like, OK, how does he doing that? Jason: Right. It's just a, when you get to that type of cheese, that's it's a little time consuming and it's a mix of art and chemistry. Joe: Yup. It's just it's incredible. So I know we just kind of skipped over it a little bit but we talked about your daughter and, and I and I know we talked about, we didn't quite say that she's vegan, but I know that she is from based on my research about you. And I know it's tough with kids these days with all of the gluten allergies and, and everything that's going on that or used to be a lot tougher. Now, its parents are more aware there are more options and I would think that it's almost the same thing with your daughter as it is with a child that has a gluten allergy. When they go to a house for a birthday party and let's just go back to using pizza as a example, because that's how I grew up, right? That your parents would buy a bunch of pizzas, and... What does she do in that case? Or how how do you let the parents know that she's vegan and that, you know, that isn't something she would (A.) like to eat or (B.) she shouldn't eat or (C.) it might make her sick of she eats because she's not used to eating cheese. Jason: We just we tell them and ask them not to make a big deal out of it. And then we make sure our daughter has food that totally owns everybody else's. Joe: Perfect. Jason: I Joe: That's awesome! Jason: When she was in school before COVID hit, the teachers were asking if we could bring stuff for them. Joe: That is so funny. I can imagine, no I, listen, I know what it smells and tastes like. Every kid we sit there with, their pizza from Dominos going, WWO!, what are you eating? I'll trade you, I'll trade you two slices for that, that's perfect. Well good, she's totally vegan incorrect? That's amazing. So you, what is the Vcology project? Is that how you say it? Vcology Project? Jason: Vcology. Joe: Vcology. So. Jason: It's pretty much the umbrella for all the stuff that I do. Joe: That's what I thought, I just wanted to make sure. And I, because I know that you spoke about The Vegan Taste, which is the home delivery food service, Casa Terra, which is the restaurant out in Glendale, Arizona. And then I heard you speak about other things potentially coming down down the road, so I assumed that that was the umbrella where all of these things would fall under. Jason: Yeah, I mean, we're working on commercializing our cheeses on a large scale. We've already had one big vegan restaurant chain express some interest in it, which was really cool, it came out of the blue. But that was, that was a nice surprise. And Joe: Yeah. Jason: And we just want to roll out really high quality vegan cheeses onto the, onto the food service market and then retail, if we can. Joe: That's great. Jason: But if I can. I mean, if I can get, like some of the best restaurants in Phoenix using high quality of vegan cheeses, all of a sudden it opens up really great menu options for vegans around the entire town. Joe: Right. And I Jason: And Joe: Was Jason: I Joe: Thinking Jason: Think Joe: Good Jason: Go ahead. Joe: While I was sitting Jason: I think. Joe: On the dairy part of it, and I didn't even know that this underlying thing about the cheese had a broader scope or what was happening. I just I kind of chose the one thing that I know, like you, you know, it's like, how do you have ravioli? How do you have a pizza? How do you, if you you're so used to having half and half in your coffee, how do you make the move away from dairy? And I think that's, I think that's harder almost than the meat part of this or that Jason: It's way Joe: Or the Jason: Harder. Joe: Protein part of it. Right. Jason: I didn't know why until Dr. Barnard told me a few years ago that the casein in cheese is called the casomorphin and that basically means that acts like morphine. It acts like an opiate in your system. And I was like, "That makes sense!!", because one day I just gave up meat and it was like, whatever but when I gave up cheese, I had withdrawal symptoms. I was jonesing, I mean, like the hands were shaking and I had headaches and I was irritable and everything else that I had heard from people that were trying to give up cigarettes or drugs or something like that, I was going through and I'm like, "What the hell is going on?" That was, that was one way where I knew, like, I've really gotta get off this stuff, because Joe: All right. Jason: If I'm having that reaction, this is probably pretty bad for me. But it was a few years later when he told me why. And so Joe: That's Jason: Anyway, Joe: It. Jason: I think that's why cheese is so hard. Joe: That's incredible. How did the two of you get connected for that book? Your book? I wrote it down. I'm going to have it in the show Jason: Sure. Joe: Notes. Jason: The "21-day Weight Loss kickstart". So he was coming through town to do a talk and they wanted someone to do a cooking demo and I was the only one in Phoenix, doing this kind of stuff, so I just volunteered to do it. They were gonna pay me and I was like, don't worry about it, I'll just I'll just do it. And so we became friends through that and then I started teaching the cancer project classes here in Phoenix for a few years, which later became their Food for Life program. And, and during that, I just developed tons of recipes every single week. Because I think back then they were kind of in the same boat that a lot of healthy, healthy doctors are in, we're like, they're like, you have to change your diet. Here's how you do it. But they're not really experts at the here's how you do part. Joe: Right. Jason: And so, you know, their recipes were easy to do, but they weren't necessarily great. They were just like, "Ahhh". And so during that class, I just continuously develop stuff that was usually easy to make, but also really spectacular. And then because of that, we just wrote the book together. Joe: And that's really cool. It's just amazing how things, you know, you can make these connections and they just turn into something amazing like that, so, yeah. I'm trying not to skip around, there's so many things I have to ask you, I have so many notes, it's like this is, like I said, I, I was doing the meals for when I was doing the 30 day thing, basically for lunch and dinner. And then I started to do them just for lunch because my partner, Jo Ellen, we were like we were eating separate times, separate things at dinner, it felt like it wasn't this Jason: Right. Joe: Community. Jason: You loose the social part. Joe: Yeah, and so it's this balance for me. But so I thought at least at a bare minimum, and I think this is one thing that we talk about stepping stones and doing this in stages, is that it's worth at least trying to say to yourself, OK, "I'm going to eat vegan for lunch", just take a meal of the Jason: Right. Joe: day and say, this is what I'm going to do. And literally, breakfast is super easy because for me, it's, it's like a vegan smoothie, right? There's nothing and so I don't have to worry about that. It's not sausage, an egg and bacon and all this other stuff. So then you handle the vegan lunch part and you're already better than probably seventy five percent of the world in regards to how healthy you're eating. Jason: That's Joe: And Jason: What Joe: Then. Jason: I think. Joe: Right and then you just. So and that's kind of the approach I took. I don't know yet, just being honest with you, if I can completely eliminate that occasional steak or burger or Jason: Right. Joe: And I'm sure I can at some point, like for me, like you, I, I refuse to go on medication. So I'm 58 years old and I'm like, I'm not going on cholesterol medication. I don't take anything for high blood pressure. I'm not going to do any of that stuff. So if it's a, if it's food, it's going to make the difference, then that's the difference that I'll make. Go into the gym five days a week is already easy for me. But if I have to do that and get rid of the burgers and the steaks and whatever, and that's the mood that I would make. Jason: And if you could make that, did you make it fun and pleasurable, then why not? Joe: Right. That's Jason: If Joe: It. Jason: It's this chore, you know, like most people are gonna be like, ahhh screw it. I don't want to do it, Joe: Now, Jason: But. Joe: For me, it's it's talking my girlfriend into seeing if we can do it together, so that'll be the that'll be the piece we'll see. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about, oh, I also heard an interview where you said that your daughter growing up with two chefs. So is your wife also working with you at either at The Vegan Taste or Casa Terra? Jason: She she was Joe: Ok. Jason: Doing The Vegan Taste for a while. Joe: Ok. Jason: I mean, for, for years, she was with me in the kitchen. And sometimes when I was off doing other stuff, she was running at it for months at a time. Joe: Got it. Jason: But I now we're in a situation where it's hard for us to split our time like that. And so she takes care of the household and raises our daughter while I take care of the business. We tried where we were splitting it both ways and it was like, I think it's hard to multitask. Right? It's hard to be great at a bunch of different stuff at the same time. And so we just finally decided, well, I'll have to go off and kind of slug it out and be the champion for the business, while she's the champion for keeping the rest of the family sane. Joe: Which is the admirable thing for sure. So The Vegan Taste, let's talk about that really quickly. So The Vegan Taste as home delivery, vegan meals that come in these great packages that are, like you said, are the goal is to heat and eat. And Jason: Right. Joe: They I don't know. I'll let you just talk about it because I don't want to, I know I had a certain schedule and the whole thing with the coolers, but I'd like you to describe it so that the audience will know what it's all about and then they can make their decision from there. Jason: Yeah, it's it's super easy. So the menu changes every single week. It's a fixed menu. You put your order in by Friday night. My crew comes into the kitchen on the weekends, makes everything. We plate it up over the weekend. Pack it up for delivery on Monday and then my team of drivers go out every Monday and they deliver all the meals at once for your entire week, that Monday. They leave it in a cooler loaded up with ice packs so even in the middle of July, the meals will stay chilled until you can pick them up and then you put them in your fridge. I know, some of our clients will reheat them on the stovetop. They'll take the ingredients out and reheat them on the stove, top it honestly, talking to people, most of them stuff it in the microwave and they have a lunch in two minutes. Joe: Yup and those containers are microwaveable. Jason: Yes, Joe: Is that correct? Jason: Yes. Joe: Yes. I know I've done both. I've depending on what the food was, sometimes I would heat it on the stove and sometimes I would heat it in the microwave. And I think that's all, also another thing in my brain about microwaves, they know make me a little nervous thinking that maybe something's there that eventually Jason: Right. Joe: someone's going to admit to, so if I if I have enough time, I'll go to the stove. If I don't, I just use the Jason: I Joe: Microwave. Jason: Am exactly the same way. I mean, I don't even have time to cook for myself very much anymore, so so I use our delivery service for me and most of the time I just slide the contents out of the container and right to a pan. Joe: So in regards to the meals that are available, is it, are they just lunches and dinners? Are they breakfast, lunch and dinners or... Jason: It's basically lunches and dinners right now, but will add in a breakfast option and the juicing option and some desserts pretty soon. Joe: And and like me, at one point, I was getting doubles of things so that I could have something for lunch and then something completely different for dinner. So I assume you have clients across the board that are only lunch, only dinner or a combination of enough meals for, is that how many, how many Jason: Yeah, Joe: can they get? Is it Jason: So, Joe: The. Jason: Yeah, basically we do six different dishes every week and you can get a single portion of each one or you can get a double portion of each one. And the people that want to have our meals for lunch and dinner, get the double portion. Joe: Right and that's what I was doing for a time, that's, that's right. And then in my case, I said that I wanted it spicy but so you actually keep tabs of certain things that people request on a small, I assume a small level because you can't be doing personalized, you know, things across the board for everybody. Jason: Yeah, we have spice is one of the standard options we have for people. And then we have a gluten free option, soy free option, although we use pretty limited soy already anyway. And then no oil option in the meals, again, are are pretty much pretty low oil already. So we just talked to people like, do you really, really want no oil? Or is that that's that you're trying to minimize your your oil? Are you trying to minimize your soy? Are you trying to minimize gluten? Because we don't we don't use those types of ingredients heavily in the meal service. And then if there's something that we can, leave off as a garnish for someone like if someone's like, "I hate right onions." I'll tell them, you know, if it's mixed into the dish, we can't change it but if it's a garnish, we can make a note to leave it off for you. Joe: Right. Jason: I mean, most people are good about it, but then sometimes I get someone that sends me a list of like 10 different things, I can't, sorry, I can't do that. Joe: Thank God I do that I don't want to sit here and look at you in the camera and go, oh, I was one of those people. And Jason: No, not Joe: I Jason: At Joe: Think Jason: All. Joe: The only thing that I said, I everything was great for me. The only thing I request that I think was less tofu in some of my stuff only because I'm I, it's just me getting used to it, it's it, and, and it's not, I would, I wouldn't even say it's a texture thing for me because I eat oysters, right? That's about as weird of a texture as you can Jason: That's sure. Joe: get. So I don't know why I definitely have had tofu from your food service, that was amazing. And it's almost like it's firm and some of it sometimes is even like crispy, like it's it's hasn't where I've had it other times where it just, just, it's just weird. Jason: Yeah, I mean. Joe: I don't know if there's good or bad tofu, maybe there's just the quality of it, I don't know. Jason: It's the way, it's the way it's prepared. And I think it's also what you're used to growing up with. I mean, if you're used to growing up with, say, diced up firm tofu in a miso soup, you're not going to bat an eye at it. But if you're not used to that, the texture might be weird for you. And I think, when dealing with American culture where we're not used to that stuff, too many people just take tofu and throw it in a soup or a stew and they're like, "Okay, that's good enough." But it's not I mean, it's like to me that's like throwing in a raw hunk of meat and is something and being like whatever. So, Joe: Yeah, Jason: You know, it's just it's Joe: Ok. Jason: All in the preparation. Joe: Ok, good to know because I started to get to like it. And thanks to you once again, because I was definitely I grew up with, in an Italian restaurant family and my father was a chef and so all of this stuff is new to me. Jason: Right! Joe: I was eating pizza and pasta and bread and, and you name it. So I wanted to ask you about Cassa Terra. I noticed that on the website, like a lot of places, especially during this time we're living in right now with COVID-19, that the kitchen is closed for the summer, right? That's what it says on the website. Jason: Yeah, Joe: Is that true? OK. Jason: A lot of the high end restaurants, it seems, around town actually close up for the summer. Unless there are these big corporate things that can afford to take the loss that restaurants just suffer with the summer here. Joe: Is Casa Terra where you do actually all the food prep and making them? So that that kitchen is still being used for the food delivery service? Jason: Yeah, it's our Joe: It's. Jason: R&D kitchen and our delivery service kitchen. We do catering and stuff out of there, too. Joe: When does the restaurant open or when do you expect it to open back up in the fall or ? Jason: I'm not sure yet Joe: Ok. Jason: Because honest answer is for a, for the type of food that we do, our location is not that great. And so if we can find a location that's more central or on the east side, that makes more sense for us right now than trying to just reopen in Glendale. And Phoenix is a weird city, so, we have these really accessible freeways and it's actually pretty easy to get around here but I don't know if our food culture is is there yet, because if someone else to drive more than 20 minutes here for food, it's painful. And the chances are they won't do it. Joe: You know. Jason: Or if they do it, they'll come once a year. And Joe: Yeah. Jason: So it's, it's difficult that way we're compared to like Los Angeles and New York or Chicago, people will spend an hour getting to, getting to a place to have dinner. And if it's a good meal, that's just part of the it's part of the experience. That might not be a great part of the experience, but it's something you're willing to do. So. Joe: Yeah, absolutely, Jason: So Joe: Yeah. It's Jason: We Joe: Funny. Jason: Have to be, yeah, we have to be in a more central location. Joe: Yeah, because I know we're in, and I live in Arcadia and the boundary for me is pretty much like the 51. If it's on the other side of the 51, I have a hard time going that far west but I understand that. You, one of the things that I did read was that about the Le Cordon Bleu the school and it was something about you being, was it the first graduate of vegan Jason: First Joe: Or Jason: Instructor. Joe: First instructor of vegan? Jason: Remember when it was theater, 2007 or 2008 that I was teaching at the Scottsdale Culinary Institute Joe: Yeah. Jason: And right when I, right when I started teaching there, they became part of the Le Cordon Bleu program. And so I, because I became the first official vegan instructor in that program. Joe: That's really cool! Jason: There was there was cool. Joe: Yeah. There's so many things, the other thing was I remember either hearing or reading that philosophy was your major? And I think what, what struck me about it, when I when I read it and then who you are and, and I even, there was an interview about making the argument of why to go vegan, like how when someone find something like this and this is why this has been like I've wanted to talk about, even though I haven't gone full vegan, I think that the health benefits are so important and just the, the eliminating of dairy alone. I mean, I've told people when they said, oh, yeah, you know, it sucks getting old. I'm like, well, I'm 58, I agree with you, but I don't, I'm, I don't wake up feeling achy. And, and, and I never did a lot of dairy, but even cutting out what I've already done, I think the inflammation piece of this is what other, you know, is another part that people are missing. Jason: I'd, Joe: And so, Jason: Yeah, it's. Joe: You know, so getting back to the philosophy part about how you're able to convey this in a not like beating someone over the head with a club, you've got to do this, it's, it's the only way. Your approach to it is your first of all, your demeanor of how your, you know, your a 6' 3" guy who you would never think if I met you in the street, would say you're vegan. And then the way you intelligently talk about the food and then the bonus of all of it is how it tastes. And so there's just so many amazing things about this, it's why I was so excited to finally do this. Jason: Well, cool! Thank you. Joe: So the Jason: It's. Joe: Go ahead with the phil..., with the philosophy part of this, I think it's helped a lot. Jason: That that's actually what got me to go vegetarian, but also it it taught me a few things about the way people make decisions because I socially and just because of the way I was raised, I didn't want to go vegetarian because it meant changing my lifestyle. And intellectually, I've been kind of bandying it about for a couple months before I pulled the trigger on it. And I didn't do it, it was just something I had thought about it. And then I had an epiphany because I was watching, I was playing with my cat. And I, intellectually, I knew my cat is this other being with its own thoughts and her own emotions. But then there was something where I was just playing with her and I had that emotional epiphany and that's where it went off and I was like, I understood that my cat was this separate creature that was valuable and she had her own rich emotional life and because she was sitting there problem solving and she was getting excited about bringing this little bottle cap back to me and playing fetch with me. It wasn't like this, this robotic, emotionless, thinking-less, piece of matter that, that's how Descartes used to view animals and that's how he justified doing all these horrible experiments he did on them because he, you know, even though they would, they would scream and all this other stuff, he passed it off as they didn't have a soul and they weren't really conscious and all this other BS. And so you can intellectually know that, but then you have the understanding there is that connection. And within a second I was like, wait a minute, it's not ok for me to just, like, take a hammer and smash my cat apart right now, that's really jacked up, that's something serial killers do. Why? Why can't I do that to my cat but why am I paying someone to do it to a cow? And I was like, "I have to stop!" So I stopped, went vegetarian and then spent a month arguing against vegetarianism to see if any of the arguments hold up. And none of the arguments were self-consistent. And so I was like, I'm going to stay vegetarian. And that was the the rational part of that. But what I learned was I had to have that emotional epiphany to fully make that leap in my decision making. And then when I went vegan, it was even more so because I was doing it for health reasons. But then I found out about factory farming. So it's ironic because being vegetarian for a few years, I had no idea about factory farming and then all of a sudden I'm looking at it for health reasons and learning about factory farming and I know that it's what happens in a factory farming is horrible and I don't want to partake in it. But yet I'm going out and having all you can eat enchiladas once a week. Because I emotionally had that tie to the enchiladas and, and so I think for most people, decision making is ah, pain pleasure balance. And it's, it's a very immediate and very immediate decision. And it's funny because people that can make that decision for the long term, we call them wise, because in the short term, going out and jogging or lifting weights sucks for most people. But the wise people go out and do that because, you know, it's going to pay off in the long term. And so I think going through that myself, even though I was trying to be rational about it and I knew what the right decision was and not being able to make it because I had this emotional thing is what got me into food in the first place. Because I knew if I could if I could take the pain part of that calculus away for people and just give them an environment where they could make a good decision for themselves and for the planet and for the animals, then, then I had to do it. Joe: Yeah, it's, it's really cool. I mean, I learned so much more about you just doing the research that I wanted to do up front and, and I think it's important how the philosophy part of your, what your brain has done through, you know, getting that degree in school and then then I heard about the soul sucking marketing job that, you Jason: Oh, Joe: Know. Jason: It was horrible. Joe: Right. Yeah. And it's and this is it all plays, this is why this Jason: It's. Joe: is such a cool interview for me. And I don't want to keep you any longer because I know that, you know, you work really hard and but I, I would love to do more at some point, Jason: Yeah, that'll be Joe: You Jason: Fun. Joe: Know, it's just cool that you, you are doing your passion. It really means a lot to you. You're you know, you eat, sleep and breathe what you preach, but you preach it in a way that it's not preaching. The food tastes amazing! It was just a godsend for me to find it. We find out tonight as you're setting up here and give it a talk, you play the drums. It's like, what, what more of a kinship could we possibly have? And all I do is try to preach on my podcast and on my, you know, social media and all that is just people following their dream. And it's really cool to see you do this. It's, it's, it's great. And and I'm glad you're healthy. Glad you made the choice when you did. You're here Jason: Yeah. Joe: To help keep us all healthy and feed us. Jason: Well it's funny, so it's funny you brought that up, because I feel like I'm in another transition point in what I'm doing because, ah you know, I had this amazing journey where I lost all this weight, I cured my diabetes, became a chef and went and helped out other people. And in the last couple years my, my health started to decline and I was like, what's going on because I'm eating right. But there's, there's all this other stuff. So, I mean, you know, in the last couple of years, I almost got divorced. I was working 100 hours a week. I was doing all this other, other stuff. I was, you know, we went to set up to open up this restaurant, we had some guys steal about 50K from us and steal, ah... He probably cost us about 200 grand in the long term, which was almost all my family's money and almost all of my best friend's money that she had. And then we opened up this, opened up this restaurant, which you were in the restaurant business, so, you know, like it is a lot of work. And on top of that, we're doing these other businesses. Jason: And so there are all these other stressors and I realize it actually happened right wing COVID hit. Because we were thinking about like, we were really looking forward to the summer when we could shut the restaurant down for a while and get a breather. And then COVID hit and all of a sudden, oddly, my life got better. Because I was spending time with my family and I was killing myself anymore and my health started to improve. That was it, I had this very narrow focus in my life, which I was really good at but it also carried all the stress that I think, I think you have when you get a little bit older in your career and you're kind of at the, you're operating at a higher level, it's also a more stressful level. And there's a lot more at stake about point. And so when COVID hit, I had more time for my family. And then I started going on bike rides again and hiking and I started spending time playing the drums, I hadn't touched my drum set in three years. Joe: WOW! Jason: And I started playing again, which was actually cool. I have this thing where I get my, stop something for a while when I pick it up and better at it. So now I can actually play some of the Rush songs that I couldn't get through Joe: Nice. Jason: For three years. Like, where did this come from? Joe: It's awesome! Jason: You know, so that was cool. And so, so I realized, like, I'd been talking about environment with food choices. But I've been ignoring everything else that goes into being a healthy person and taking care of your mental state, taking care of your family, making sure you have time to not be insane with all this other other stuff and so I think my crew is shifting into a point where I'm going to start talking about more about holistic health and creating good environments for your, for your well-being as an adult. It's, I'm sure it's true for for kid or whatever part you're in but since I'm in my 40s and kind of went through the midlife crisis part, that's how I solved it, was figuring out that I had to create a good environment to make good choices throughout my whole life and not just with the food, because I'd just been concentrated on the food, which is one key. Joe: You. Yeah, it's amazing how many people I know, it's it's hurt a lot of people. But I personally, it's been the best three months and so long because I was running so hard. And like I said, I've gotten to do things that I want to do. I it's just it's been a good thing. And I'm glad to hear that everything is turning back around for you, too, as well. I worried about you when it happened, to be honest, because, you know, I, I know it devastated the event world for me, I mean everything just stopped. And so I was worried just purely whether or not you know how how well you would do during that time. And it's funny, speaking of, you know, COVID-19. Was there any concerns about, you know, your clients with Joe: The food delivery and any, any things that you had to do differently in order to to be, you know, follow the CDC guidelines or anything like that? Jason: We just did extra sanitation, but we were already doing that stuff anyway. Joe: Right. Jason: We were just more hardcore about it than normal. But that was it. Because I think with the food delivery, it's contactless, so our drivers just show up and Joe: Drop the Jason: They're Joe: Cooler. Jason: At their doorstep Joe: Yeah. Jason: In and head out. Joe: Yeah. Jason: So, so in a way, it didn't really affect the delivery service at all. Joe: Got Jason: It was Joe: It. Jason: horrible for the restaurant, but that ended up being a boom for us personally. Joe: Yep, yep. Well, awesome! Man. I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you're here. Like I said, I was disappointed when I had a sort of postpone it last time, I just took on too much. It was one of those deals where I thought I could I forget how much time postproduction takes after I get off this thing to get it, Jason: Yeah. Joe: You know, ready for prime time. But I am super, super grateful that you said yes and you came on, I love your food and you're an amazing human being. The more I've done the research and get to know you now. And it sounds like your daughter is definitely waiting for you to put her to bed. So I'm glad, I could go on, I swear to God for another hour, there's so many questions about food and just things that you've done, but we'll do it another time for sure. Jason: Yeah, that'll be fun. I'd love to come back. Joe: I again, I can't thank you enough. It's an honor to have you on here. And I'd love to have you back again. Just for the audience sake and things like that, where's the best place to get in touch with you? And I'll put I'll do in the show notes, I'll list every, you know, your social media things but like in regards to, let's say, The Vegan Taste, what's the best way for people to reach out? Jason: Just go right to thevegantaste.com Joe: Okay, perfect. Jason: I mean, we have all the social media platforms, but it seems like, you know, Facebook changes what they want to show to people every few months and Instagram is the same way. You know, all these other ones. So just just go straight to thevegantaste.com Joe: Perfect. I'll put in all the other links, I'll take care of all of that. Again, thank you so much, I appreciate it, it's so, I look forward to actually meeting you live in person. Maybe we can sit around and jam one night. Jason: That would be awesome! Joe: I would love it. So. Jason: Cool. Joe: All right. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Jason: Hey, thank you. Have a good night. Joe: You too!

Today, we talk with Jason Yelowitz and his client, David Wolf. David could best be described as a “serial entrepreneur”. We discuss the sale of David's business and Jason's role therein. Tune in to hear our discussion about David's successful sale, knowing when it's the right time to sell, and business in the time of the CoronaVirus.   Episode Highlights The efficiency of the marketplace. Why cash is king. Incentives for having payroll employees. Why Dave decided to sell. Knowing when it's right to sell. Is selling at a loss the wrong move? If the pandemic has slowed down or changed deals. Is this a good market for first time buyers? How to keep your business stocked and afloat during the pandemic. Transcription Mark: All right this week we don't have Joe with us. We have Jason Yellowitz with us because Jason had one of his previous clients, Dave Wolf, on the podcast to talk about the sale of his business and some of the lessons and looking back on how that sale went. I always find these conversations interesting because after you sell a business, you have the chance to finally be somewhat introspective into what that process was like and maybe what you would do differently. Jason, I know you have Dave Wolf on who you work with for quite a while. You guys had I think two different LOIs that you had to work through in order to get to a closing. How did that conversation go? Jason: Yeah, it was really interesting to catch up with Dave. We got his business sold. I want to say it was around August of 2019, so it's been a while. He feels happy that it was sold. It was a very; at least to me it looked like a very good business. It had a general manager in place that was running the day to day. In his case, it really wasn't taking up his time but there's always that bit of mental focus that you can't let go of. And Dave has his fingers in so many different businesses that I think for him he needed to let up on the mental focus and then I think also he reallocated some of the capital. He really ends up buying a fair number of distressed kind of assets and for that kind of thing, you need cash in your pocket typically. Mark: Yeah, I know. Absolutely. I know you guys went through two different offers on this and I'm sure you'll get into that a little bit on the podcast. Did you guys discuss what happened with that first one that didn't go through? Jason: I don't know if you got that into it on the podcast, but it is an interesting sort of lesson for potential sellers. When we had first listed the business, we got multiple offers. And like most people, the seller gravitated towards the one that had the highest headline price. The challenge that sellers should remember is the market is pretty efficient. A lot of times if someone is bidding more than others, the reason they're doing it is because they're already aware that they are less likely to get the financing necessary to close the deal, and therefore they're willing to bid it up a little bit. Whereas someone that comes in in the middle of the pack might have a much higher chance of closing, but they know it and they're not going to pay up as much. So what it comes down to I think is don't get wooed simply by the headline number. You have to think of it holistically if you're a seller of what's most important to me; hitting a certain dollar amount or walking away versus a higher likelihood of closing. And there's not a right or wrong answer but the lesson is, don't deceive yourself into thinking you can have it all. There's usually some sort of tradeoff. Mark: Absolutely. Now the market is strikingly honest. It's always very, very honest, very direct, and you can't really fool it so I think that's a good lesson. Well, let's get into the episode and I can't wait to listen to this one. Jason: Hey everybody, this is Jason Yellowitz from Quiet Light Brokerage and for today's Quiet Light podcast, our special guest is David Wolfe. David is a serial entrepreneur. He's got his hands in all sorts of businesses. And it was probably about six months ago that I represented him in the sale of an online e-commerce business he had. Dave, welcome, how are you doing? Dave: Hey Jason, how are you doing? I'm pretty good. Jason: Good. So are you sitting there in some tropical location, I can see palm trees blowing in the background. Dave: I wish. I wish I was. Unfortunately, it's just a cool background trick for Zoom video because I'm sitting at my house quarantined like everybody else. Jason: Yeah, well, you mentioned quarantine. Obviously, we are in the heart of the COVID-19 coronavirus situation so if you don't mind, maybe you can just tell viewers just quickly what are the businesses that you're running and what impacts positive, negative, neutral have you seen from the coronavirus? Dave: Well there's definitely a lopsided negative for this; for what we're dealing with right now. I'm in several different industries. So we are in some direct to consumer automotive space online. I have recently, after the purchase that you represented for, I got into some brick and mortar stuff doing fencing installation and some manufacturing of fencing products; vinyl privacy fence. And then we're also in real estate lending and a few other places. And it's pretty drastic across all industries. From what I can tell the online businesses are faring just immensely better than just about anything else. So some of the brick and mortars, we're dealing with a; when I get off this call, I've got to deal with one of my managers needs to self-quarantine. So he's showing symptoms. He's not in a terrible situation. But now we're looking at we're already planning on going down to a minimal staff while this was blowing over. And so now we've got to see okay well, now it's zero because we can't have him at the shop at all. So these are just normal things. On the plus side, I think as most people I've talked to; as I'm sure you have a lot of different business owners in a lot of different industries just because of what I do. And because of the people that weren't in a good position, there is, unfortunately, going to be some business fatalities from this. I talked to a bankruptcy attorney the other day that was representing me in purchasing some assets and he was just the ground is already starting to rumble with the volume of business that's going to be occurring from that. And so I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities for people that; everything is going to work itself out but the reality is if you know how to run a business if you have sound principles in operating businesses, there is going to be a lot of opportunities. It's going to totally switch from a seller's market to a buyer's market. It was basically overnight I feel like. I think you would agree when you were working with me we had talked about it. For the most part, it's kind of a seller's market. There's a lot of capital out there. It's easy to get. And now we had; the institutional lenders aren't even lending on in our hard money lending business, which would be considered about us. We've dabbled and had conversations about that space. It's a very secure asset. Even they're holding off on buying more assets. So what that tells me is cash is king, right? So if you have money to buy a business and I would say you have the bandwidth and you can afford to wait, you don't need the cash flow right away, I think there's going to be some unbelievable opportunities in the next few months. Jason: Okay, that's a pretty interesting perspective. From our end what we've seen is the economic; obviously, there's the human and health toll. And I feel sorry; I've got a lot of empathy for your manager who is showing symptoms. On our end what we're seeing is the economic impact is really hitting different businesses differently. Some of them are way down. Others are way up. We've got a number of online businesses where their sales literally doubled versus the previous year in the past 12 months. What's not clear is whether it's a temporary blip or if there is long term enduring changes in customer behavior. For instance, I've got a client who sells a security device on the internet. His sales have doubled and his theory is more people are staying home and they want to feel safe at home. And without a crystal ball, that sounds as plausible to me as anything. So let me ask you this question. You mentioned that you believe there's going to be some golden opportunities for buyers, especially cash buyers. I think as of about an hour ago, I read a lot of headlines that Congress and the president were very close to passing a historic stimulus bill. And my understanding is that's inaudible[00:09:56.6] to fund a lot of money to the Small Business Administration. Do you think that that money will get to people that want to buy businesses or is it mostly going to be used to shore up existing businesses or do you have no opinion? Dave: Well, one of the things I think is going to happen. I think that you're going to see and I guess you can't quote me on this, but you're recording this so I guess you're going to. So normally and you think; I don't know if you've had this conversation, but typically the kind of par for the course for purchases of at least smaller businesses is an asset purchase agreement where you wipe out and start again. Well, there might be some people willing to take on some of the risks of a previous business if it means that by having the established business in place all of a sudden it makes it tremendously easier to be able to get capital from some of the pipelines that's going to be coming through. I mean, I think they're probably just going to be throwing; it's either they're going to be difficult to get because it gets bogged down in bureaucracy and that's going to be a disaster for the country or it's going to be they're just writing checks and throwing money at people that have a business and primarily a business with payroll employees. I guess that's one of the things that we've kind of; a lot of company shy away from that and try to stay lean and online. But there's going to be a lot more incentives for having a payroll more than likely. Jason: Yeah, that's what it sounds like. It sounds like most of the incidents are tied to maintaining a payroll. So maybe we can; let's go back in time six months, you had sold a business, what month did we close; was it October? Dave: August is when we closed; very end of August I think. Jason: What was going through your mind at the time? Why did you choose to sell and are you happy that you made the decision that you did? Dave: Yeah, well, so I definitely am very happy that I made the decision I did. I wish I would have just had all the money sitting at a bank account. But like an entrepreneur, we put a lot of it back to work afterwards. But, yeah I'm very happy that we sold. We would just kind of look at it as I wasn't focused 100% on that business and I knew that there was some opportunity in it but I needed somebody that looked at it the way that I did when I bought it five years before that could take it to how do I 3x this business and it was. It was a solid business. And I knew it was because you have had several side conversations with me where I was like do I really want to let this go? And in talking with them that business is one that's kind of about where it was, they haven't really been too badly negatively affected by the issues that we're dealing with right now even after a slowdown, which is good for them. But it allowed me to free up my time and focus on new things and kind of you had said like I was able to find plenty of things to focus on to grow. And I was reinvigorated by having that newness to it again where I was kind of tired. It wasn't that there's anything necessarily fundamentally wrong with that business it's just that I was seeing opportunities or make investments to grow it and it just didn't excite me. I wasn't doing it. I wasn't pushing like I was. And so a new owner came in and he has that same; it's new to him so he's making changes and making moves and improving the business and I think they're doing a good job. And I'm taking that renewed energy and I'm putting it toward something totally new and so I think that's a real win. So I'm definitely happy. I have no remorse for selling the business whatsoever. Jason: That's a really interesting point that you bring up, because at this point I've been brokering for 10 years and what I've acknowledged is a lot of times when I meet a seller, their first instinct is how do I get the absolute most money out of the business? And the obvious answer is grow it to its utmost potential and then that'll translate into cash flows and you'll get a multiple on those increased cash flows. The reality I find is usually when people want to sell it's not specifically for the cashout. The cash out most people consider that's the fair market value of what their business is worth today. So the decision comes down a lot more to personal things. Most of my sellers, there's a personal reason; marriage, divorce, buying a house, I have to move, I have to support my in-laws, anything like that. And then on the business front, it usually boils down to some version of what you just said, which is I know how to grow this business I just find that I knew how to grow it six months ago and I didn't. Clearly, I'm lacking the motivation and the sort of excitement that comes from new business ownership so maybe I'll hand it off to someone else who's got that level of motivation and excitement. So the way I think of it is each party takes the business to whatever is the highest level while counterbalancing all the other things going on in their life and how much attention they can put to one versus the other. What would you recommend to someone who wants to sell their business now? We are probably at a peak uncertainty. We don't know if the coronavirus is going to infect millions or hundreds of thousands in the US. We don't know if it's going to make another round around the globe. I mean, the truth is, we just don't know. What we do know with some confidence is the central bank and the US government is putting a lot of firepower into trying to keep the economy going. But we don't know what the facts are so what advice would you have for someone who they had their plan, they were going to sell this year in 2020; maybe in June, maybe in October, and then boom, coronavirus. Dave: Well, I mean first it has to be a scenario where you have a willing and able buyer. So if you don't have a buyer already then it's a totally different story. And it really depends on what your consequences are of not selling I would say. I mean I have a lot of assets that I have for sale in the market right now that aren't business-related. And this could totally be; I mean I don't know when you're going to publish this podcast; a week from now this might be irrelevant. But in this very particular instance while we are quarantined in the house and just I'll give you the; I'll let down my guard here so that you guys, you know, it's a this is just for inaudible[00:16:36.4] the house. Jason: They're not quite as nice as the beach. Dave: Yeah, right. I'll go back to the beach. I think that it's obviously not the best time to be in a transition flow for the assets. Now, that doesn't mean that it's a bad time to sell. It depends on what does not selling mean. I mean in some cases, even selling; I mean I'm going to go to the extreme, even if you had to sell at a 50% discount to what your business would be worth a month from now, if not selling is going to cause you even more financial damage because of the foreclosure on a large property or something like that, it may still be worthwhile. It's kind of the lesser of two evils to sell your business. Jason: You know what's interesting to me about your statement was you said a week from now this might all be irrelevant. It was about a week ago we had an all-hands meeting at Quiet Light to say what are we seeing in the market and I was taking the same point of view that you're taking today, which is the values are going to come down. It's going to be all distressed sales. Strangely, in the last week and a half, we have gotten reports of a number; I think we've closed four deals in the last week. None of them were significantly different to my understanding from what the letters of intent said. And as I mentioned in the beginning, we've seen some businesses that have really; their financials have really gone down. And for those sellers, I would say if that's where it is you need to decide for yourself are sales coming back or are they permanently down? If they're permanently down you need to get very real very quick with what the market will bear. If you think they're going to be back, your best bet is to wait until that happens. But then the other side of the coin which Dave this is really surprising, some of the businesses are going off the hook up and those are the ones where I think the sales are closing and the buyers at least it seems; I've gotten this mostly second hand, it seems to me the buyers are feeling that their golden opportunity is that with behavioral changes worldwide more is shifting possibly to online, possibly to certain sectors and they want to get in on that now so that they want to close. So it feels like the market is changing but not necessarily in the static way that many of us would have predicted. Dave: Yeah, I mean a good example is I think that this is going to accelerate the move from traditional brick and mortar businesses to online. People that have never done insta-corridor like Amazon Prime delivery and stuff like that are now ordering their groceries and they're using Zoom video to chat. I mean this accelerated technology, the adaptation or adoption two, three years easy. I mean the stuff that we're seeing, people that have never used that technology are figuring out how to do those kinds of things. They're ordering food, they're doing; so day to day habits that typically don't change that fast have completely changed. I just bought a set of gymnastic rings to work out at home because I usually go to the gym. I like to go to the gym but I can't go to the gym so I was like, all right, well, I'm going to buy something and my routine just totally changed. I might continue with that. I actually really liked that so I'm looking at doing some other upgrades that go along with that. Maybe like putting some bars up in my back yard and doing a couple of other things. So that's happening across the board and I think I'm starting to see some adaptation from businesses as well changing and pivoting. But I think that's pretty simple as if it's just I guess as a buyer or a seller you really have to categorize yourself in are you a person that buys off of past success or are you comfortable being a little more speculative and focusing on future potential speculation like you said in a sense that I had a letter of intent on a project and I saw the sales skyrocket and because of this I'm more than happy to close. It's obvious that the effect of this has already impacted that business in how it's more than likely going to in the short term so you're not really too concerned about that. And then again the same thing I would be very worried if I was in LOI and the business fell off a cliff in the short term or had to shut down entirely and you have to start with a terrible cash flow. And then how is that going to affect the annual cash flows on the back end of that? I think there's ways around that. I personally; I mean like you said, most of these LOIs fast purchase is 30 to 45 days. I don't necessarily think it's a bad time to be shopping for businesses if you don't have to spend all your time focusing on making sure that yours isn't on fire because if you go into LOI you have plenty of time to do the due diligence on before you have to close to make sure that you do, in fact, want to go through with it. Jason: Do you think this is a market for first-time buyers? Let me give you an example. Let's say we've got somebody in their mid-30s who has worked in corporate America for the last 12 years, risen up the ranks to middle management, is not excited about their day job but as of today, they still have it and they want the excitement of being an entrepreneur but they've never thought or run their own business. They've been part of a much bigger organization. Is this the time for them or do you think it's only the time for more experienced buyers with the larger risk appetite, a larger balance sheet, and a better ability to forecast or better confidence in their ability to forecast? Dave: I actually think it's a great time for a first-time buyer to come into the marketplace. I mean in contrary with the right outlook you have to be able to have a long term outlook and you have to have enough cash to be able to weather an uncertain future for at least a few months, if not a little bit more. Because the reality is that if you can get a good value like I think there's going to be opportunities for lower valuations out there which allows somebody to get into a business that couldn't otherwise get into. I mean people say like, oh, well, it's a bad time to buy a business because this stuff is happening but you could get the same business that potentially four months ago would have cost you 1.5 million. If they have cash flow issues and they have a bunch of other stuff, there might be one out there that is 750. It's really the same business. Maybe it needs $60,000 in cash infusion to survive what's going on or $50,000 in additional cash to survive what's going on for the current process but I think for most businesses, this is a temporary liquidity issue and not necessarily a fundamental the business is just completely destroyed. Jason: So going to your example, I mean, you just gave an example of a business where because of what's happening hopefully temporarily; obviously, none of us has a crystal ball. In your example, the business value dropped in half. It kind of seems to me that if you're going to buy in that environment, you have to kind of know yourself. How did I react in 2008 when I saw my 401k drop in half temporarily that kind of thing? It feels like it's more of a risk tolerance question as opposed to a more simple decision. You have to know yourself, how you react, how you're going to sleep at night. Would you agree with that? Dave: Oh yeah, definitely and that's there's so many caveats. I mean, you'd have to pick a much more specific type of business and I would imagine if I've never been an entrepreneur and I've had a regular middle management or upper management job and I'm just going into entrepreneurship this would be; it's going to take some cohunes to pull the trigger on something right now in this environment just because of how many unknowns we're going into as to if it is in quick recovery, what's the long term economic impacts from a potential but hopefully not recession and some of the other things or we could come out booming. I mean, there's going to be a lot of pent up demand for every service after this is done. Jason: I was thinking there's going to be a line around the block at your barbershop. Dave: That's funny, I actually did; I did okay do I get myself a haircut. Yes. Jason: No, it's nice. Dave: I'm going to show you the back. That's a little; but yeah, I actually talked to a salon owner today that I used to do marketing for and I was telling her; she was like what do I do? She's got a good business but I pay everybody and lose 25,000 and then pay my rent when we're closed. And so she's in a much better position. She's got plenty of money laying around and she had no debt. And we had a conversation and I said look, if I was you, you've got these lines of credit that aren't used, the bank may close those down soon because I have talked to several banks; smaller banks that are concerned about not necessarily lending on new businesses, but really more they're concerned about liquidity without this stuff coming down from the federal government where they can't do; I have a loan for a new primary residence I'm doing and the guy was on it's a portfolio loan, which if you guys don't know what that is, it means that the bank is going to hold the note versus handing it off to Fannie or Freddie Mac because my taxes are very difficult to do because I have seven or eight businesses and all these different things. And they said they're not doing any portfolio loans because they have 60 million dollars in commercial credit lines that have not been pulled down yet that if those were pulled, they have to have enough cash to be able to provide that liquidity to those commercial lines and so that's affecting them. Jason: That's pretty interesting. I was looking at online savings accounts yesterday and I was expecting that the interest that they pay savers would have dropped down to a couple of basis points. In fact, it was still up in the 1 ½ to 1.7 range. Dave: That's the reason why. The reason why is because they need depositors because they were concerned about whatever happens. A lot of commercial credit lines were closed in this type of environment because really the banks aren't afraid of everybody; every customer defaulting. What they're afraid of is every customer maxing out their line at once and taking all the liquidity from the bank. So that's one of those issues and so I personally had some large, large lines that I just pulled out all and put it in a checking account. And I'm happy to pay the interest on the short term so that I have access to capital, particularly because I do plan on; even though I'm pretty busy I do plan on being a buyer of business assets here in the next couple of months. I don't know what they're going to be. I just know that if you do have cash, if you were fortunate enough to have money sitting on the sidelines due to just serendipity or it just being the right time and place, there's just going to be some unbelievable opportunities. And I mean you can see them everywhere. I told my friend that was a salon manager; I said, look there's going to be a lot of salons that are closing down or people that just need cash and they pay their day to day bills with that money. Call them and see if you can buy all their color product that they have sitting in their salon that's not being used for like 10 cents on the dollar. Jason: That's a pretty interesting idea. One thing I've heard with those small local service businesses that have been put into a shock so hard is to reach out to their regular customers and ask if you'd be willing to prepay for the next haircut or the next meal. I think there's a lot of community spirit of none of us wants to see the small businesses in our town collapse so many of us who have the means are willing to prepay just as a sign of good faith. So as always, anytime I talk to you it's a fascinating conversation, as kind of that final piece I would love it if you could give a synopsis right now; let's see today is March 25th, so with the caveat that at today's speed of news cycle. Dave: 1:35 PM. Jason: Yeah, anything can change. So at 1:35 PM Eastern on March 25th, 2020 in the middle of the coronavirus I would love to get just your little quick snippet advice for buyers, advice for sellers, and final thoughts. Dave: Okay, so let's start with the advice. I would say, advice for buyers go ahead and go out and look; I would say go out and look as if nothing has happened. Remember that when you're putting LOIs out, you're doing your underwriting afterwards. So if you're looking at a business, you say I like this business in normal times let me go ahead and look at this and place the offer with a condition of you can stipulate obviously always you understand, hey, I'm kind of concerned about what's currently going on, but let's go ahead and get this going. So remember that doing an LOI doesn't mean that you can't do your due diligence and confirm the underlying fundamentals because this month's cash flow is probably more than likely either going to be significantly better or significantly worse than it was last March or last April. And I suggest you just got to have to understand that. It doesn't mean you got to close right away. As far as sellers are concerned that would be my number one piece of advice is to keep moving forward up to the point where you do have to make the commitments. You can still try to get the SBA financing, get all your ducks in a row, and then once you have everything in place, you can decide to make the final decision based on where things are at that time. Because by the time; like you said in 30 or 45 days we could be in a drastically different economy. But you might have started a deal when nobody else was bold enough to put out the LOI. You might have an exceptional value on a business that's right back to being extremely healthy. And as far as sellers are concerned, it's really just assessing. Maybe it's possible if you have to sell, you really need to determine what your best alternative to a non-agreement is. Are you willing to go back and run this business for a year inaudible[00:31:29.8] or mentally are you done? You don't necessarily have to tell the buyer that. But if mentally you're done and you have an offer that comes to the table that's lower than what you're expecting, you're really going to have to grapple with the decision of are you going to stick this out and do the work to make sure that this business is healthy again so that you can get your higher valuation or is it time to just accept a lower offer and realize that they're not gouging you? That it's just most of the buyers are buying off of the cash flows of that business and significant disruption in cash flow is a very reasonable thing to reduce the purchase price of a business. I mean, I saw that when I sold mine. I won't get in the numbers, but I had a higher number and then we had a small hiccup because we lost one contract and still very healthy business but it had a material impact on what our future cash flows for expected without having to make changes. And I totally understand that. In principle, we agreed to a multiple which just unfortunately for me it's a lower purchase price when you use the same multiple if you lose $5,000 in monthly cash flow. And so it happens but again, on the other side of that, being somebody that had a higher offer that then wasn't able to for whatever reason didn't go through; there's no fault of my own and then going to another offer that was lowered because of something had happened. I think we were dealing with the China tariffs and all that stuff during that time which looks like a child's play now with what we're dealing with. I resulted; I ultimately made the decision to still sell at a lower purchase price and looking at it now, I don't regret the decision. So if you're just looking for what; instead of me giving you empty advice as a seller all I can do is tell you that of what I did and what I decided to do. And now looking forward, I don't regret making the decision to accept an offer that was lower than what I originally wanted for the business. Jason: Are there any brokers and brokerage that you personally recommend? Dave: Anybody with Jason. Jason: Anybody but me, okay I got it. Dave: I'm very happy; I was very happy with Jason's advice. I think it was spot on and yeah he was just a very level head with a lot of experience on how to get a deal done. And really without railroading you, I think one of the really comforting things is Jason is going to be one of those guys that will tell you, look, if this doesn't feel right, just don't do the deal. You probably won't get to pry out his financing, but I can tell you that he does not need the check from your sale to survive. So he's my; yeah, I don't want to like let the cat out of the bag there but he's not going to push you into a sale specifically to get a commission check and that's something that is very nice to see in a broker. He does this because he likes it and because he's very good at it and likes the transactions of the business. And I was very, very happy with the work that I got done at Quiet Light. I can definitely see; from a DIY-er, I have no problems with the commission brokerage that I paid with Quiet Light at the end of the day. I think it was well earned and I would be happy to do it again Jason inaudible[00:34:48.8]. Jason: Wow, well that's ridic; I have to end it with an endorsement so I think with that I'm going to say thank you so much for your time and your thoughts, you're obviously a very experienced entrepreneur. You've bought, you've sold, you've built, you've experienced setbacks, and here you are with the beautiful fake background of a beach. It's phenomenal. So thank you for your time, everyone. This was Dave Wolf. He owns too many businesses to list. But obviously, he knows what he's stocked up. Thank you, Dave. Resources: Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com

Are you a property manager who loves or hates creating systems by leveraging technology? Do you enjoy or dislike doing inspections, dealing with tenant issues, and handling renewals? Have you considered putting processes and people in place to automate your business? Today, I am talking to Paul Kankowski, a real estate investor with more than 200 doors. Paul increased systems to build a better property management business. He describes how he created computer-based processes for his employees to do everything his way, the same way, the right way. You’ll Learn... [03:10] One-man Show: Learn how to get the job done right and then do what you want. [04:41] Paul prefers to create processes and systems to solve problems. [05:29] No Secret Sauce: NARPM speaker/expert on automated processes/systems.  [07:29] Paradise is Possible: People make more money, if they have good systems. [08:39] Fines: Do I charge? Do I not charge? Decision made by process, not employee.  [09:25] Everything that doesn't have a process, Paul deals with until he creates one. [10:52] Manuals and How To Videos: From simple checklists to 195+ steps to follow.  [13:37] First Process: Tackle the one that's losing you the most money. [16:40] Make or Break and Placing Blame: Mistakes are made by processes or people.  [25:40] People as Process: Property management will never be completely automated. [29:30] Retention vs. Growth: Give good customer service and don't let doors leave.  [36:20] Stay in Your Space: Identify what energizes or drains you, then offload them.  Tweetables Mistakes are made when processes are broken or employees skip steps. Be involved in your systems. Know how they're running for your business to run right. Processes are not a secret sauce that everyone has to have a different one.  Why people like systems: They make more money, if they have a good system. Resources PM Systems Conference (Aug. 10-13, 2020, in Las Vegas) AppFolio Asana Process Street Podio Wolfgang Croskey Mark Cunningham Landlord Source Property Meld DGS 80: Automating Your Business with Process Street with Vinay Patankar  DGS 76: Outsourcing Rules for Small, Medium and Large Companies with Todd Breen of VirtuallyinCredible DGS 69: HireSmart Virtual Assistants with Anne Lackey DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today I am hanging out with Paul Kankowski. Welcome to the show, Paul. I'm excited to have you on. I told you in the green room that I was really excited to have you because this is a topic I think everybody would be interested in. Everybody loves this idea of creating systems in the property management business, figuring out how to leverage technology. Before we get into this topic, qualify yourself. Tell everybody about you. You’ve done some really cool things in the property management space connected to this. Introduce yourself. Pau: Hi, my name is Paul Kankowski. I'm out here in Temecula, California, this is Southern California. I have over 200 doors right now. We're not huge, but we have increased our systems in order to make ourselves better. I actually started in education. I was a school principal and a math teacher for 18 years, and I was a real estate investor. I've been a real estate investor for over 20 years. I bought a lot of properties and when the crash happened, I became a flipper. I bought a lot of rental properties and people were doing a really crappy job in my area. Now I actually know a lot of property managers in my area, but back then I didn't. At the time, I just didn't have anyone that could do the job right, so I started taking some NARPM classes and I started using that to manage my own properties. I only cared about managing my own properties and family for the first two or three years, and then I went into that to turn it into a business. Since I've turned into a business, now, I don't want to manage everyday things. I don't want to be doing inspections. I don't want to be doing all the stuff that you have to do as a one-person show. We have eight employees and I've created processes and systems so that they do everything that is done by computer and everything in the same way, I can work on higher-level things, more networking, and doing stuff that is more enjoyable in the industry. Jason: More enjoyable for you, right? Because some entrepreneurs hate that stuff. Paul: Yes. More enjoyable, in the sense, that I don't like doing inspections. I don't do them anymore. I don't like dealing with some tenant issues. I don't like dealing with renewals, but I like everything being done my way. I like it being done well. I like it to be done the same type every way. Before (as you know) I have to get my hands on everything to make sure things are being done, so we are giving the best customer service. Now, we have systems in place, so I know that things are being done the way we state it and ought to just hope that my employees are doing it the right way. Jason: Right. What's cool about Paul, for those watching, is Paul's built this business around himself and what he wants to spend his time doing, versus what most business owners think they should or have to do. You get to do things you enjoy doing on a daily basis, which really is different for every single entrepreneur. Paul: Yeah, it's great. I like doing the processes and systems are working on them, but I can't. I was a math teacher for 12 years, so systems and stuff are like math problems. If you have a problem, how are you going to solve it and how do you solve them the same way each time? It also (I think) a great way for people to hire people that can do it for them, to get it done right, but you have to be involved in your systems. I don't care if you don't like the math portion of it. It's just very important that you know how they're running so that your business will run right. Jason: Right. You can't just stick your head in the sand and throw it at somebody and expect that it's going to be done well. Paul: I agree. Jason: Let's take a step back. Everybody listening to this, I want to point this out, too. You’ve run some conferences related to automation and technology. You've got some things going related to that, you didn't mention that. You're an expert at this. You’ve spoken at NARPM, the Broker-Owner, I think, related to this, or the national conference or something like that. Paul: I spoke at the national conference in San Diego. It was something similar to this. I have had four conferences on systems and I have a systems conference. My next one's in August, that will be our 5th one. This has been really good. It's a small conference, they only allow 50 property managers to go do it. It's a workshop, not a conference, I always like to say, because it's not a bunch of speakers speaking. It's a lot of time you getting down and dirty, actually doing the processes, having fun with property managers, and really getting in conversations. “How is your move out? What's your move out different?” Sitting there and discussing with other people what they're doing and then creating the process on people that have already paved the path to do good process. I find that when you sit there and you work with five or six other people, you learn where your inefficiencies are, what's great about someone else's processes that you can copy. Processes are not this secret sauce that everyone has to have a different one. You can take a good process and you can adapt it to your business. That's what our workshops are about. It's a really great time. They usually sell out in about three to four weeks. I usually have a long waiting list afterward, just because we do keep it small. I don't want to get so big where people can't actually sit and have a conversation with each other. Jason: I like the idea. Let's talk about your business. Let's paint a picture of what's possible or what you see other business owners do that had been in these conferences, some of the people that are plugged in, they've got technology, they're leveraging it. I want to paint a picture of paradise or a possibility for those that are listening because I think a lot of people listening are going, “It sounds so complicated. It's probably not possible. I'm sure what I'm doing is nearly just as good.” What are you noticing in your own business? Maybe in terms of margins, systemization, and staff? Paul: This is the biggest thing and this is why people like systems. You'll make more money if you have a good system. I'll look at HOA. HOA was an issue a year ago. We tackled; we were not doing as good of a job. We were handling every HOA issue as its own individual thing. We weren't getting emails to owners. We were dealing with the HOAs, but we weren't letting the owners know, “Hey, we're dealing with it every week.” I lost a big owner because they thought we weren't dealing with the HOA issue, even though we were, but I lost it because of perception. The perception was they were getting email weekly, so we create a process where the owners get updated every week on the condition of the HOA when the things are going to be resolved. The other things that would make more money, first off, we have owners that are happy. Second, the fines that we’re giving to tenants, they were happening 100% of the time. When it’s not in a set process, a lot of times I'm like, “I'm not going to charge that because it wasn't that big a deal. He left the trash can out.” Well no, it is a big deal and it's a $25 charge. You're going to get a charge no matter what now because it's in the steps. The employee who's doing it doesn't have to make that decision, “Do I charge? Do I not charge? Is this one of those things?” That's a step that might have been missed. We've noticed our revenue—when we have processes—doing really well, it goes up dramatically. I would say HOA fines, we might have a couple of $100 in HOA fines the year before and now, it's thousands of dollars. That's a huge difference because we were not being consistent on the fine. That's a huge thing about the process. The other thing is everything that doesn't have a process, I have to deal with. Here's one that we have not created yet, owners leaving us, and we have to exit them. That’s the next process we’re making in the next two months. Right now, when an owner leaves, I have to do all the work because I don't have a process. I'm afraid that my employees might do it their way. They might make a mistake. They might not take them out of the property mill. I'm going to be paying $2 a month for that door that’s not even active because it's not been deactivated or up fully own and that it's $1.50 a month. All these little things that you think, “It's only $2, only $1.50.” You have 20 doors that you're being charged $2 a month, that’s $40. Over a year, you're looking at $480. You have to have good processes so you don't skip minor steps. You say, “Well, I don’t skip.” If it's not written down, you make mistakes. You might not make mistakes but your employees are going to. They're not bleeding the business day-to-day that they're not going to sleep thinking about the business like you are as the property owner. If you write it down and you have every detail there, not only you're going to make more money, you're also not going to lose money from having money just shot through. Jason: Okay. You were just talking about a process that you haven't yet created, that you're working on right now. When you get into this process of creating a new process, how involved are these? Are these like insane, and they have lots of different steps? You're thinking of every nuance and every detail or are a lot of your processes simple? Paul: When I started, they were really simple. When I started, I was Asana, it was a checklist. It was a checklist and everything was the same and it was fine. It was better than nothing, but it wasn't good. Now, my utilities processes are 195 steps. Jason: Your utilities process. Paul: Are 195 steps. When someone does utility, it's about eight steps for them to finish it because one of the things is every utility is listed and so you put SDG&E, or you put Edison, a different step is going to come up for every single utility. It asks you questions and then Neil, my person has to go through 195 steps, they go through nine steps. They go through SDG&E, then it tells them the phone number to call, who they have to talk to. Sometimes, one of our processes for a little water company we deal with it says, “Talk to Susan,” because Susan's the one in the office that they have to talk to in order to pay this bill because this is [...] water district, and they're just kind of backward, I believe that's the one. It says every detail. There are videos there. If I get a new person on, they can watch a video and the video shows them step-by-step how we do, how we put the invoice in AppFolio, how we do everything. It's a training tool for my new employees. I just had a new employee last week. The first thing we tell them is, “You need to go through Process Street. You need to watch these processes and you need to go through this 20 times,” and then I want you to try it, without me even instructing you and see if you know how to do the process. I'm going to watch you do it. If you know how to do it, then I created a good process. If you watch these videos and go through it 20 times and you still don't have a clue how to do your job, then my process isn't good enough at this stage I'm at right now. You can be as small as just wanting a checklist and having people skip steps, which is fine, but there's more chance for mistakes to being so detailed that it's a training manual for every person that comes on. Jason: I love it. For those listening, you're currently using Process Street. We had Process Street founder, CEO on the show before. It was a great episode. Make sure you go back and listen to that episode where we're talking about Process Street. We use it internally here at DoorGrow. I think it's a great software. Now, if somebody is looking to get started with this, or they're showing up at your conference for the first time, they're one of these 50 people, they've got the deer in the headlights, eyeballs going on, and they're like looking around, they're feeling really inseminated, what is the first process that usually people should tackle? Paul: The one that's losing you the most money. The one that's a hemorrhage point. It’s usually either moving, leasing, those are usually two of the big ones, move out. It's funny, right now, we've changed our compass around a little bit. I'm doing a pre-session on the first day, so we're doing it for four hours, where I'm going to work with a small group (10 people), and we're going to break down your process and build it together for the first four hours. You're right, I have people at all stages of my conference now, I have people that have been to every single one of mine. This August, it will be their 5th time going and I have people that's their first time going. We want to give the difference between those that are first-timers and those that have been to four of them. When I started this systems conference two years ago, it was two years ago last September, I started it because I thought my processes sucked. I hired a speaker to come and speak to us, and he was pretty expensive. This is how this conference has started. I put on Facebook, “Anybody wants to share on the speaker cost, we’ll just meet in Vegas.” We had 10-12 companies there and it just started because 12 of us got together, we split the cost of the speaker, and we went together and hung out. We had such a great time, we found that it was so great just talking with other property managers, that we kind of tweaked it a little bit, and then we’re like, “Okay, we are kind of the speakers because we are in the industry. We know what each other needs.” Now it's all about helping each other. If you go to this, you're going to the four hours (in the beginning where you're going to get that), and then just go and sit with other property managers, see what they're doing, write little notes, and get your checklist. Start as basic as you can. I have one guy that will only use Google. Everything is Google sheets, but he has his steps written down and it works for him. Other people are Asana, other people Process Street. Other people like Wolfgang Croskey, have Podio everything automated. All his emails are sent automatically. Everybody that goes, they're using different software, they're using different things, but their whole goal is to help each other and to make it so that your process will be good. Jason: Yeah. I would imagine one of the best things about being there, talking with other people, seeing and hearing how they do things, you're just going to get ideas, and there's a lot of ways to implement that idea. A process is software-agnostic in general. It's a process. You need certain steps to be done, it can be done by humans, it could be done by technology like Podio, it could be done by whatever, but it needs to be done. You need to know what the vision is so that you can create it. Sometimes, this just comes from getting ideas from other people. “Oh my gosh, that’s a great idea,” and you're doing that in your business. “We should do that too,” and then, “How can we do that with the tools and resources that we're currently using?” Paul: Jason, I would say, to start a good process, the first thing you do is you get every employee that's working on a process on the table. You get a big white sheet of paper and you write down, “What are you doing?” This is our creation of the process. Our process is to get them right. It’ll take about two months. It sounds like a long time, but it's really not because of the process we do to get our processes. We start out by getting all the people involved in the process, and we write down, “What steps are you doing? What do you do?” We don't skip anything. After we get all of the steps down, I send it to someone in my office named David who will sit there and put it into a Process Street with all the bells and whistles, all the changes, and when this is going to happen. We sit there, and we go through it, and I try to break it. I go through every single step and I see where it ran into a problem. That's the very first month. I only work for an hour here and an hour there. I work on for an hour and say, “Hey, this is tweaked,” and “Are we clear?” He fixes that. I look at it and say, “Okay, this is good.” After that, we give it to the person who’s actually going to be doing the job. Their job for the first month is to try to find where the process doesn't work and to either, doing the process to be like, “Oh my gosh, we forgot to put the charge into the tenant,” or whatever it is. If they find something wrong with the process, then I'm going to praise them beyond belief because they broke my process. Breaking my process is a good thing. Throughout the entire year or whenever we have a process, whenever a problem occurs in my company—an HOA gets missed, and we have some major issues with some HOA—we look through the process, and we say, Was it a mistake by the employee, or the mistake by the process?” If it’s a mistake by the process, we fix the process right then, right there and get it right again. If the mistake is by the employee, we show them, “Look here are the steps, what happened? Why did you skip it?” “Oh, I'm sorry. I just skipped this step,” now they know that it was them. It's really easy. In the past when you just have, “ Hey, here's what you do with an employee, you're always blaming the employee,” a lot of times, it is not the employee’s fault, it's your process. Jason: Yeah, that makes sense. A broken process ensures you're going to have a bad employee a lot of times. Paul: I agree. Jason: I'm going to recap, this is what I wrote down. It takes about two months. You're going to first document it, sit down as a team, then you're going to build it, then you're going to break it, then you're going to fix it, then you're going to test it. It sounds like over time, you're going to optimize it based on what feedback you're getting from your team, and what feedback you're getting from clients, tenants, owners, and problems that are coming out. Paul: Exactly and that process is never done because the second something goes wrong in our company, you look at what the process is. If you have a move-in and the move-in is a disaster, it's either the employee or process, and you have to check and find out. It's so easy when you have a good process, to find out where the breakdown occurred. Jason: I think this is an interesting thing to point out because I get a lot of people that come to me, and they're like, “I need the perfect magic owner's manual. Where can I buy that?” or “I need this,” and I tell them, “Every single property management business is so unique, so different. How you want things done is going to be different and no business is ever perfect,” it's never just done. I think a lot of property managers think, “Well, I just need this one thing that I could just strap onto my business and it'll finally be perfect, it’ll finally be done, and I won't have to ever mess with it again.” I think that's just not reality. You’ve got things really well dialed in and you're still working on stuff. Paul: I bought multiple different companies through NARPM that I'm glad I bought them because I did look at them. I can tell you right now, there are some things I bought that I never looked at, we never really did, and it says, “Blank your property manager company name,” it is very, very detailed and stuff like that, but until you sit down, if you buy something, it gives you a basis to start working on your thing, don't think, “Oh, I spent $1000 on this. Now, I can just implement it in my company,” you have a framework. By the time you're done rewriting that, it's going to be 50%-60% different (I think) than what you bought. It's still going to help you. It's still going to help you pay Mark Cunningham, or any of these people, or Landlord Source for something that they have, is going to help you in getting your brain thinking about what you need to do for that role or position, but how Mark Cunningham or Landlord Source do their business is not the same way. I don't do my business the same way as anyone and I get a lot of their information. I look at them and I'm like, “Oh my gosh, it’s really cool how they did that,” but then we might have a different law in California, a different ruling, a different way of doing what we have to. You can't assume that what someone else do you can just implement in your company on day one. Jason: Yeah. For a lot of us, it's easier to create something. Especially, for starting from scratch. If you're a startup, or you're a new property manager, you never documented your processes, sometimes it's helpful to have some resources to look at. It might not even be that great. Sometimes the bad processes with the bad ideas are even better because you can look at that and the contrast from what you know you're doing and what you're reading about, you're like, “Okay, we don't want to do anything like this, and I want to make sure that we avoid these things.” I like the idea that you intensely try to break your processes. Paul: Yeah. The other thing I want to add is, I think automation is amazing, but this is my fear of automation. I will automate a lot of my processes, and they’ll be better automated than it is something that we're going to work on. But any bad process that’s automated, you're not going to see that's a bad process. If you have an email that’s automated going out and says, “Dear tenant’s last name.” Putting the tenant’s last name because you're not actually having any human do it at the beginning, then you're going to be automating that for 70-80 emails that are going to be sending “Dear tenant’s last name.” I think you need to do a process for a while by hand. You need to have an actual human being doing the process, checking the boxes, and making sure it's right, so they could find things that are wrong. When you get a process really good, then your next step is to automate, because yes, it's great to save time and have an email every week go out that tells them about their HOA violation or tells them about the moving processes. I still look at emails every once in a while and I'm like, “Oh my gosh, we forgot to change the wording from this move-in email to this move-in email saying the second week.” If it's automated, it’s going to be automated. Something automated bad is going to be badly automated forever. All I'm saying is that a lot of people want to go from no process to everything being automated, and them not being involved. I don't think that's possible. Wolfgang Croskey, he’s automated, and he does an amazing job, but I don't think he went from not having a process to everything running on its own, and him not involved in it. Jason: No. There was a coaching plan for a good while and I know he didn't start at Podio. I think he was using Process Street and even before that, he was working on stuff. I love the idea. You got to do it manually. A lot of property managers are already doing a lot of things manually. They're doing it that way first. They now need to document it, then they need to figure out, how can we start to systemize this? How can we create consistency? How can we automate this? How can we make sure it's being done the same way every single time and there are checks and balances? That's one of the reasons I like Process Street because you can build a process and that’s one step, and you just paste it in a Word document if you have to. Really, really low level and maybe that's the best you've got. Eventually, you can break it into some multiple steps. Then you can get it into something crazy like you're 100 plus step thing that's got context-sensitive options based on what you pick, and it's going to give you different tasks to do depending on what options you're selecting, and you can get really crazy (if that makes sense). The cool thing about having a process though is you can continually improve it. It can get better over time. That means that you're lowering operational costs, you're lowering drag, you're improving your team member’s ability to accomplish things and win, and get things done. Now, what do you think about the challenge of people as a process? What I mean is, everybody has team members that they need in order to think. If somebody is making decisions, they're planning, they're coming up with ideas. Then you have team members that really are operating like a computer. Their job is just to follow the process. How do you balance this in your own company and determine, is this just anybody on the planet that could just follow this checklist, or they need some customer service skills, and they need to be able to communicate? How do you balance the discrepancy that people have that are fearful of processes because they're like, “I want my clients to be taken care of really well.” Paul: You still have to think. You still have to go through it. You still look and see what's going on. How many of us property owners, managers, et cetera, spend nights thinking about everything we have to do the next day? You write steps down on a sheet of paper before you go to bed and then you try to get it out of your mind so the next day you don't forget it. You're not doing that because you don't want to care about your business or you don’t what I think about it, you're doing it because you don't want to be staying up at 1:00 in the morning, sitting there and trying to think what you need to do. Everything we do in life, if something tells us how to do it, then we can start thinking about things that are higher level. You can take your employees. If you could take a lease renewal process and you can make it so that every single time it's done correctly, it's done right, no one wants to think about it, then there's no stress on these renewals. Now, when something does come up that’s stressful, people that are higher level can think about the things that are higher level. You have a maintenance issue where someone falls off the roof and you're getting sued. You're not going to process for that. Now, instead of you thinking about lease renewals and wasting your time on something that can be automated, something that can be just automatic, you can spend your time on high-level items, and you're going to have employees that need to spend their time with high-level items, so you could spend your time on other high-level items. Probably the management will never be completely automated. There are companies that say, “Oh, we could just automate everything,” no, you can automate a lot of stuff so you can spend your time on the 10% of the stuff that really, really matters, that’s really stressful, and that can't be automated. Jason: We talked about this on the show I think probably several times with different companies, but ultimately, the goal (in my opinion) when it comes to technology, when it comes automation, when it comes to systems, is to take off the plate of yourself and your team members, the stuff that's really redundant, the stuff that could be systemized so that you can focus more on depth. I think that's where property managers are going to be able to compete with the big conglomerates, the big companies that are super tech-based, is that it's going to be about relationships. Property management is a high touch relationship type of business. If process and systems allow you to create a more personal touch, to go deeper, to spend more time communicating more intimately with more depth with tenants, residents, owners, then I think you're creating a business that is going to have significant value, and it's going to have longevity because it’s built on relationships. Ultimately, it's people that are giving you the money. As people, we tend to like humanity, and we tend to like people. Paul: If you're spending, as a business owner, 20 hours a month on something that can be automated or something that can be done by someone at a less level, you have to think of your time as value. When I had 30 doors, I did everything. When I had 50 doors, I was still doing everything. You have to figure out where you value your time. I have five remote employees and I have two employees in my office. People are like, “Oh my gosh, that's a ridiculous amount of employees you have for the number of doors you have.” We’re profitable, and we’re profitable because we're in California, we price ourselves well. It's the customer service level we give our competition. Some of them are missing the mark. They are not giving that customer service, so we are giving it. Someone is not going to leave because of some deep discount or just giving really bad customer service where retention is so huge. I'm seeing so many property managers talk about retention being better than growth because if you are losing 20% or 30% of your doors, all your time and ability is going to just stay even. People are spending $500–$1000 a door to get a new lead, but there are others that walk out the door. My thing is to give really good customer service and don't let those doors leave you. They are going to leave you because they are selling, but don't let them leave you because you are not doing the job right. Jason: I find that with clients. A lot of times, the issue with retention. I agree, retention is a significant thing. The issue with retention is often created during the sales and onboarding so if you can really systemize, automate, and build a really solid process during the sales and onboarding, you've got a really solid sales and onboarding process that really develops a strong relationship, that would carry you for years with some clients. Paul: I agree. Jason: And the trust level is higher even if the communication (later on) is really low. If you created them in the beginning, they are going to trust you and it's going to be a lot stronger. If that's not done effectively during onboarding and sales and isn't created well, there's going to be a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear. They are going to be questioning everything that you do. You might end up a lot more operational costs related to that, and they are probably not going to stay with you as well. Paul: I agree. We have one person whose new onboarding is their main priority. It's making sure that new owners have a good experience and are treated well, and the onboarding experience is great. Never lose a customer. I think one of the podcasts I heard about that, I read the book. It was a great book. It's about customer service and taking it to the next level.  The thing is people will spend so much money on different things and then don’t answer the phone. If you can have your people working on the process, working on other things, then you answer your phone, you are not going to let that lead that. You just play when it clicks, $30, $20 get away. Processes are huge for your business to me, they are the number one building block.  I don't think everyone on all the boards is always, "How can I grow? How can I grow? How can I grow?" I think growth is important, but if you grow and all of a sudden, you add 100 doors in one year and it was just you, you don't have a process and everything is in your head, then you are going to lose all those doors because you are not going to be able to give. When you had 30 doors, and you go from 30 to 130 and you’re at the customer service, you gave those 30 people. You are not going to be able to give 130 because all of a sudden, then you are hiring someone. They are going to be like, "Well, how do I do it?"  "Well, you just got to listen to my head." No one can read your head. So, even if you are a single person that's by themself, if you want to give a task away, then start working on the process for it as soon you have to give that away. If you are at 50, 60, 70 doors, I would tell those people it's more important for you to start working your processes right now unless you plan just staying at 50 or 60 and never want to grow.  Jason: This is one of the greatest secrets that I coach entrepreneurs when they come into our program. One of the very first things to start them with is helping them get clarity on where they can get leverage the quickest first. It's usually different for everybody. There are some similarities but the way to identify that is usually done through getting clear on where you are actually going. I have them do a time study, then I have them identify which things are energizing them and which things are draining them, then which things are strategic versus tactical. The strategic stuff grows your business, tactical stuff just keeps it going. Most of the process would work by its tactical work. The strategic work is what you are talking about doing in creating a new process. You are like, "We are going to work for this new process for the next two months when we get this dialed-in." That's what grows companies.  If you get to stay in your area of genius, the things you really enjoy doing as a business owner, and you've identified what does are because you are clear on which things are causing you grief and energizing you versus draining you, then you know exactly what to offload. You know what to give to your assistant and different people. We've had different great companies here talking about [...], hire smart VAs, great assistants. We've had companies talking about virtual team members and whatnot. Those are great episodes if you want to listen to those on the DoorGrow Show. We touched a lot on those different ideas. Ultimately, one takeaway you want everybody to get is that everybody can have the property management business that they enjoy, that they love having, and if we built around you and what your unique strengths are, maybe you love the accounting side, maybe you love doing the phone calls, the customer service, connection with people. Maybe you’re a people person, maybe you geek out on systems and process, but you can do whatever you want to do in your business if that's your intention. I think we get stuck sometimes having the business that we think that we need to do like the job that we need to do in the business instead of the business that we want. Paul: I would agree with that 100%. Last year, we grew 80 doors so that's probably the average of what our average. We are averaging between 5 and 10 doors a month. We haven't really started spending money on marketing because I really wanted to first get everything correct and right. One of my property management friends (who is my mastermind guru) calls me once a month and asks me, "Hey, Paul. Did you talk to a tenant this month?" and I'm not allowed to talk to tenants because it was taking time away that I could be doing other high-level things and I need to trust my team to deal with my tenants.  Now, if it gets to a certain level and I have to talk to a tenant, then that's a different call, but I have to make sure that I am actually thinking about when I talk to a tenant. When a tenant calls because they are pissed-off about the fact that we paid the utility bill and make every charge, I have to trust my team’s going to handle it, my team's going to do it, and that I am not going to get involved in it because I find when I get involved in it, then I might do something that wasn't like the process we agreed upon as a team. I even had to, as an owner, that's $25. You are talking for 10 minutes, not worth my time for $25.  I have to be out of it because I will be like, “Yeah, just waive the $25. I don't want to talk to them anymore.” It's really important that no matter who you are, that you follow what you tell your team to follow. A lot of times, you can do it yourself, you made your own decision, but once you make a decision on how you are going to run your process or what your rules are, you have to stick to it company-wide.  I laugh because it's usually us, as the owner, are the worst culprits of not following what we are going to do. The employees do it because a lot of times my employees’ bonuses are based on serving certain goals so if I don't accept anything, they are like, "Man, you are hitting on my bonus. Don't be messing with my goals."  That's something I've learned is just find what you like. Find what you are good at and get a group of property managers around you that can be like a mastermind group that can keep you focused because you need other owners to tell you, "Stop doing that," because your employees won't always tell you exactly what you need to do, what you need to hear.  The other thing is when systems aren't working right. Now, there's a system in there where my employees can say, "Well, you didn't follow the system here." Every person is accountable for checking off what they have to do in the system. When I don't check it off at the end of the week, an email goes out to every person who missed any steps of the system. I have an employee that's checking that. My name is on there. I miss a part of my system and it will list. I never want to be there with three or four items that I missed because that would look really bad. That's another thing, the accountability, I'm not doing the accountability part. I have an employee on Saturday that answers the phones and her job on Saturday if it’s not very busy, is to go through every single process in [...] and write down who hasn't met their deadlines for that process. Jason: Yeah, accountability. Paul: It works really well. None of us wants to see our name on that list, so everybody is getting their stuff done and it's not because I'm going to yell at them, it's because we don't want to be mass emailed to the whole team that you didn't do your job. Jason: It creates a lot of pressure which is a positive thing. That means you don't have to come down on them all the time. There's this lateral pressure, this internal peer pressure in which most employees and team members are recognition-based. That's how they are most motivated rather than financially, so they want to be seen as doing a good job, and they want to be recognized. That's the opposite. There's that pressure, so they want to make sure they avoid that. Paul: Exactly. Jason: It makes sense.  Paul: And we also do our bonuses based on not being recognized. Even my bonuses. Everything is based on getting your job done. What I saw in the past, we didn't have someone that was going through it weekly. We had some process where they’d be open three or four weeks and not being completed yet. Now, it's very rare for the process. It will definitely not be there if you are listed on that one week. If you are listed in the second week for the same one, then you are going to have a conversation with me, then you’re going to me. Our processes are never missed for more than 5–7days, which is huge.  The only thing that I'm still trying to figure out is maintenance because I use Property Meld and I'm still trying to figure out how I can make sure my maintenance team doesn’t get missed. Property Meld does good ways of doing that. That's something I'm currently working on is how on a weekly basis, we can check to make sure none of that's missed.  Everything that you do, you got to find using the software systems that will work to check on the system.  Jason: All right. Paul, I think it has been really fascinating. I think everybody listening got a lot of value out of this. I loved your tips about where to start. Anything else that you throw out there and want to say to anybody before we wrap this up about creating systems in the business? Paul: I just tell them the dates. Our website is pmsystemsconference.com and the dates of our conference will be August 10th through 13th. It's in Las Vegas and it will be in Rio. It is not up yet, we should have it up next week or two. We are still working on it. We just got the rooms and booked everything yesterday. We just booked for August, but it's a really good time. Last time in January, we went ziplining on one of the nights. We also try new fun stuff because if you are working all day, you also want to have fun. There was a time we went bowling one night which is a great time to get together with a small number of property managers and get to know them. I enjoyed it.  People always ask me how long I am going to do it, I'm going to do it until I stop getting fun. When it becomes a job, then I'll stop doing that workshop, but now I go there and it's like seeing a bunch of old friends.  Jason: Cool, love it. All right, Paul, thanks for coming to the DoorGrow show. I appreciate you. Paul: Thank you so much, Jason. You have a wonderful day.  Jason: All right, so check out his website. Check that out. Thanks everybody for tuning in. If you have a moment, make sure to like and subscribe. If you are watching this on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. If you are listening to this on a podcast on iTunes, then please leave us a review. We would love it. That would be great. If you are a property management entrepreneur, you are struggling, you are frustrated, you are not sure what you need to do in order to grow, there's a lot of different ways you can approach growth depending on what challenges you are dealing with now. We have solutions for various things here at DoorGrow that we can help you with, please reach out. You can check us out at doorgrow.com, and we will talk to you soon, everybody. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Not tech-savvy? Afraid to use technology to meet elevated brand standards at scale? Are you willing to manage and centralize chaos by leveraging automation and mobile functionality for those maintaining and caring for your properties?  Today, I am talking to Tucker Cohen of Breezeway, which brings operations and service optimization software to the property management space. By combining deep-learning technology, robust property data, smart messaging, and mobile-first task management, Breezeway makes it easy for managers to deliver the best experience for guests, tenants, and owners.  You’ll Learn... [03:05] Problems Solved: Breezeway helps property management business owners when short- or long-term tenants move out to determine condition of property.  [05:15] Breezeway Bio: Created by FlipKey founder and acquired by TripAdvisor. Breezeway uses 75+ years of industry experience to build the future of property care. [07:00] Systemize business to be more effective and save time for brand standards and rising expectations in the market.  [10:23] Conferences and Companies: What does a conference need? Everything a business needs. Company growth and expansion doesn’t always make things easier. [14:45] What are brand standards and rising expectations? People and perceptions are extensions of your brand. Trust and transparency meet standards and expectations. [21:25] Dating Analogy: Am I the person that the person I want to attract into my life or into my business, would they be interested in me? Come down to their level or level up. [23:05] Running a Business: If something isn’t working, it's your fault. Take ownership, don’t blame your team that is following your lead.  [27:20] Expectations tend to rise, but sometimes expectations are artificially wrong, unrealistic, unmanageable, and express entitlement.  [29:22] Situational Sayings: If nothing changes, then nothing changes. If you want dramatically different results, dramatic changes are required.  [30:59] Status Quo Challenge: Some people aren't ready for change. Ultimately, everyone moves toward an operations tool, like Breezeway.  [36:00] Platform Integrations: Breezeway strives to be a connected system, but wants to work with Rent Manager and others. [38:35] Three-Legged Stool: Cleaning, inspection, and maintenance of property care and operations. Tweetables Everything looks shiny and pretty, but business is tough, being an entrepreneur is tough, and the inside of companies can be tough. The main thing must stay the main thing in the business. Keeping focus is power. Expectations tend to rise, but some expectations are unrealistic and unmanageable. The sooner you can automate, the better. As you scale, you have that process in place. Resources Breezeway Tucker Cohen’s Email Tucker Cohen on Twitter Tucker Cohen on LinkedIn FlipKey TripAdvisor Todd Breen Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink Rent Manager EZ Repair Hotline Property Meld Latchel DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today, I am hanging out here with Tucker Cohen. Tucker, welcome to the show. Tucker: Thanks a lot, Jason. That was fantastic. For some reason, I thought that was recorded. I didn’t know you did that a lot. Jason: I just say it each time. Sometimes, I screw it up even though I wrote it. Tucker: It’s perfect, you nailed it. Jason: I'm reading it. I think I haven't memorized, I probably do, but I read it because even I get nervous doing my own show sometimes. Tucker, we're going to get into Breezeway and our topic today is brand standards and rising expectations in the market. Give us a little bit of background before we get into the topic at hand. Tell us a little bit about what is Breezeway and maybe we can dig in more into that as we move through the topic. Tucker: Absolutely. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm glad that we're able to reconnect since Orlando, probably like a month ago now. I’m super excited to be here. It's interesting. The topics are largely in line with what we're up to. I doubt that's much of a coincidence, but what Breezeway aims to do is allow property managers, like the ones you're talking about, the ones who aren't afraid to adopt technology, go out on a limb, and do something first, to meet those elevated brand standards at scale. The way we're doing that is through leveraging automation, through leveraging mobile functionality for folks in the field who are helping maintain and care for your properties. Without getting too much into it, I'd say that we're really in line with that brand standard piece you mentioned. Jason: Cool. I want to touch on this before we could move on, but what problems does Breezeway really solve? Property management business owners are struggling with what? They would be really interested in having a conversation with you. Tucker: I think there's a number of different ways to answer that with regards to the folks who I think are probably tuned in now. It's going to be more aligned along the lines of when someone moves out or when someone checks out of one of your properties, be it long-term or short-term, you don't necessarily know the condition that the property was in when they got there. With Breezeway, we have a system of record for every single detail down to the serial number of your appliance when someone checked in and every item into a certain room or a certain part of the house that often goes unnoticed or you have an owner coming in to check-in, I think it’s just managing the chaos would probably be the best way to describe what we're helping folks with. Jason: Now, my initial gut reaction hearing this is that sounds like a lot of work, of data entry and getting all these things, just to go around to each unit and feed all this stuff in. How do you deal with that objection that people are probably, I'm sure it's come up. That sounds like a lot of time. Tucker: Totally. With any of this type of stuff, you get what you put into it. If you're willing to go through the due diligence upfront, make sure that everything is set up right, and you have all your property information in the system, then it pays dividends down the line where you don't have to go digging through a Google Drive with hundreds of different files about your serial number on the microwave, that property number 150. That stuff is all there anyway. The only difference is that it's just buried somewhere, whether it's an email thread, a text chain with a cleaner, an inspector at your property, or a maintenance guy. You have most of this information anyway. What we're doing is we're centralizing everything in there under one hood. Jason: Got it. Now I'm going to read a little bit of that bio that we received when getting ready for the show because I think it makes you guys sound pretty credible and I want you guys to look really good. Breezeway brings operations and service optimization software to the property management space, combining deep-learning technology, robust property data, smart messaging, and mobile-first task management. We make it easy for managers to deliver the best experience of guests, tenants, and owners. We are serving a global customer base across a broad set of verticals, including short-term vacation managers, residential property managers, cleaning and maintenance providers, hospitality operators. This was created by the founder of FlipKey which was acquired by TripAdvisor. The Breezeway team is using 75-plus years of industry experience to build the future of property care. What you're working on is you are directly with the sales team. You're building the sales team inside that. This says, “Having skilled companies from series A to unicorn status in the past.” What does that mean? Explain that to me. Tucker: That's, of course, like privately-held software company jargon right there, but basically, what that means is a company that's pre-Series A, like us here at Breezeway, means we've raised a very small round of money. In the future, we may raise a Series A, which is more of an initial investment, proper venture capital raise, and then all the way up to unicorn status, which is commonly referred to in Silicon Valley as a billion-dollar valuation for the company. Jason: Okay. Let's get into the top of your hand. Brand standards and rising expectations in the market. This sounds like you guys are primed for growth. It sounds like you guys have a really cool technology in place that's going to do some stuff for property managers to help them systemize their business. I think you could answer my question better in saying that it's going to help them save time in the long run, right? It’s the bottom of the line. There's some time that it takes to get this stuff set up initially, but it's going to save you the hassle of all this time in the long run. Overall, it's not costing you time. Tucker: Yeah, you got it. Jason: There you go. Tucker: Most folks are already doing a lot of this stuff anyway. Jason: They're just doing it poorly. Tucker: Again, you said it, not me. Jason: Most things in most businesses. I get to see on the inside of hundreds of companies and everything's shiny on the outside. It could be shinier. We can help you with that, by the way, property managers. It could be shinier on the outside, but the challenges on the inside, that's like the whited sepulcher they talked about in the Bible like, “How's everything going?” “Oh, it's great,” but they're drowning. That's businesses on Instagram. Everything looks pretty and is great but really business is tough, being an entrepreneur is tough, and the inside of companies can be tough. A smart entrepreneur I’d spoken with today on a sales call said, “What's your internal organization like? How do you run your own business?” I just started telling him because us, entrepreneurs, we know what it's like to run a company. It feels like herding cats sometimes, it feels like chaos, wrapping some constraints around that and moving the business forward towards scaling towards growth takes work. You help manage some of the herding of the cats information-wise. Tucker: There you go. Absolutely. To that point, it's such an interesting timing. I actually just started listening to this other podcast called Under The Waterline. Have you heard of that one? Jason: No, but Under The Waterline? Like drowning? Tucker: It's pretty straightforward, but all about what you're saying. Everybody tells the story. When a company goes well, all you hear is the above the waterline, which is clean, beautiful, and nothing ever went wrong. I'm drawing a blank on the host. I only listened to a couple of episodes far, worth checking out. He digs and he interviews with entrepreneurs, and talks about “Tell me the honest take. What happened here? How did you do this? Was it good? Was it bad? Was it ugly?” really digging in on that under the waterline grit that it takes to successfully build a company like you're talking about. Jason: Yeah. I've made all kinds of mistakes. I jokingly tell people that DoorGrow has been built on thousands of failures, I mean really. I did a conference back in November and some of the listeners were probably at this conference. We had 150 attendees. This was our inaugural event. It was phenomenal. We had amazing food. We had great speakers. Here's the dirty secret about doing that conference. People were like, “Why aren't you doing it again this year?” I thought it'd be this great thing, our business is healthy, we're doing about $1 million in revenue, we've had 300% growth, then like, “Let's do a conference this year.” Tucker: Why not? Jason: The thing about starting a conference, property managers can compare this to—if they're in residential going into commercial, or deciding to start in a new market, deciding to do associations, or whatever it might be—some expansion and they think this will be easy. There’ll be just this other thing. This other thing was like starting a whole new company because what does a conference need? Everything a business needs: sales, marketing, branding positioning, lots and lots of organization, everything that a business needs. It was like starting another company. Guess how much growth we had the year that we were doing a conference? No growth. We had no growth for a year. We were healthy-ish but we weren't growing ironically. Our company is called DoorGrow, but it was because we were distracted because everything had to go towards this conference. Once you decide to do a conference, you're all in. You're on the hook with the hotel, you've got vendors, people sold tickets, there's no going back. There are lots of companies that have gone bankrupt just for doing a conference. I was like, “How was that possible? No.” We're [...] than that. Not me, no. That's every business owner starting company. “I'll be better than all those other property management businesses. They all suck but that won't be me.” I hear that all the time. “I'm starting a property management business because all the other companies in my market suck.” I hear that every week and they won't be that one. Tucker: What you're talking about, too, Jason is just like spending your time efficiently and effectively. If you are a small shop, you can't really afford to necessarily make mistakes like that with where you're allocating your time. In your case, it was a conference that did it. You did it, you pulled it off but someone who, like you're saying— Jason: Yeah, everybody loved it, everyone's like, “It was so great,” and I didn't love it. It was super stressful because I'm somewhat introverted. I'm an ambivert but that situation was incredibly uncomfortable for me because it was just so much pressure. But it went off well, everybody had great feedback but it cost me $2 million in opportunity cost easily. Tucker: No ROI there. Jason: I could do a conference that cost tons of money, broke even sort of thing. The conference probably cost $120,000 just to throw because we did everything great but the opportunity cost, the fact that my team were all focused on it, and everything else instead of on the main thing. I think as entrepreneurs, we need to remember in our business, the main thing is the main thing. If your business needs sales and revenue, then that's what you need to focus on, otherwise, you end up with a sales slump and then you're scrambling. The main thing has to stay the main thing in the business. That was a huge lesson that I got from that. I got to make sure the main thing always stays the main thing. Entrepreneurs, we’re always tempted by opportunity and there's always a distraction, there are always new options, opportunity, and distraction, whether it's expanding into a new market as a property manager or something. Keeping focused is power. Tell me what are brand standards? Rising expectations? Let's get into this. Tucker: I have a hot take on brand standards. I think it's a pretty lukewarm take, I think it's pretty straightforward, but it’s really like, “This is what your expectation is.” There's this sociological theory, which is that there are three versions of you. There's you as you see yourself, there's you as other people see you, and there's a version of you that you think other people see as you. It's your projection of what people's perception is. It's one thing from a personal standpoint, but from a business standpoint, you actually can control that in a lot of ways. That's what we're talking about with brand standards. You have expectations as an entrepreneur, as the CEO of your own company, you expect things to be done a certain way. How do you make sure that the people who you're trusting to impact your business, whether it's someone taking photos of your property for a posting, for listing, cleaning your property, or inspecting your property before someone checks in or moves in? Those people are extensions of your brand. You're effectively trusting them to meet those standards. A lot of times, you don't necessarily have insight into that but maybe that was a hot take. Jason: Yeah. I'll add to that. Branding is one of the main things that we have property management businesses with. I consider myself a branding expert. This is something that I dealt with in helping clean up the branding for hundreds of property management companies. We've helped some vendors even recently. We helped clean up Virtually Incredible’s branding. We helped clean up their new logo. It was designed by my team. I had some great conversation with Todd Breen on helping him focus on the main gateway that was feeding his business and recognize that other things were back-end products that came later in the sales cycle, instead of putting out the message that he did everything, which one feeds the business. I think property managers need to recognize that, too.  Property management is often the front-end gateway product even if they also do real estate. It works more effectively usually that way. I think they need to focus on that, but a lot of property management businesses in the branding are real estate companies, which scares off the people that want a specialist. They want a specialist that manage their biggest investment ever. I've helped double some property management businesses’ real estate revenue commissions by eliminating real estate from their branding, ironically, because once the property management side is healthy, it's what's feeding them the majority of the revenue that’s coming into that. It goes back again to focus. We can tie this back in, but it goes back again to focus that in order to deal with people's expectations and in order to manage the perception of your business, I think the key is that you need to align it towards what starts the process, not towards everything that you do. I'm dating now. Imagine that you're in the process of dating, you're going out, and you just vomit everything about yourself and what you do. You can't do that. You got to start with where's their interest level at. Start in that space first. “Oh, you're into music? Me too.” You have to start somewhere. There has to be a beginning. The same thing with our businesses, there has to be a beginning because you [...] what you're doing. You're trying to create a relationship and you can parallel this to dating, but you're not going to show up and try to make out with them on the front porch as soon as you meet them. That's what people try to do in sales a lot of times. They just vomit everything right on their lap, they're in a state of overwhelm, and they're like, “Okay, that's a bit much, buddy.” I think also with branding, transparency is so huge. You said something that I felt anxious just hearing you talk about the expectations with yourself, with others, and then what you think others are perceiving. That can be such a big head game that people get caught up in. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh, how are people perceiving me? Am I okay? Do they like me? Am I being right for them? Am I doing this?” Ultimately, as we get older, we learn to just not give an F. You don't care as much because you become more confident, you love yourself, you like yourself. When your business is confident, when you're confident in your business, and you're confident your business can deliver, you come from a greater space in which you can be the prize that the client is trying to get instead of thinking that they're the prize. This is called prizing in sales. I think it happens when you’re transparent because transparency creates safety, it creates trust, you don't have to try and be something. The problem is, a lot of times, the brand is not in alignment with what's on the back end, what's on the inside. It's not in alignment with the business owner. Tucker: That brings up two great points. One is you say in your personal life, you grow up and you're just like, “Yeah, I don't really care. This is who I am, take it or leave it.” What we're talking about here, unfortunately, is a place where we don't have that luxury. We're talking about the rising expectations that are taking place across every element of property management and then the brand standards. Jason: Due to increases in technology. People have iPhones. If they have iPhones, they expect more. Tucker: It's one thing to say, “Yeah, this is who I am, take it or leave it,” but if it's your business, you say that, and you provide a bad experience, that's where I think branding really comes down to is the experience that your client ends up having when they engage with you, be it at the very beginning of your relationship or throughout the lion's share of it all the way to the end. Jason: Yeah. Let's go back to the dating analogy. If I'm overweight, I'm not getting my hair cut, I'm not brushing my teeth, and I just grow my beard down to my ankles, and I just say, “Screw everybody else, this is how I am. Take it or leave it.” That's cool, I will only attract people that are interested in that. That might not be what I'm interested in. Here's the thing. I love this question, “Am I the person—that the person I want to match with, or attract into my life, or into my business—they would be interested in? Am I at that level? If not, I even need to lower my expectations or I need to make some changes.” Tucker: Right, either come down to their level or you level up. That's it. Jason: Right. Either way, I need to get in touch with reality. I need to make some changes. A great question that I've had several coaches I've seen throw out or coaches I've worked with ask is, “Who do I have to become in order to be that person? Who do I have to become? What would it take? Who do you, as a property management business owner, have to become in order to have the type of business that you want?” Here's the thing. One of my coaches said, “If you don't have the business yet that you dream of, you're not yet the person that can run it yet. Tucker: That's meta. Jason: That's meta. Right, that's really simple. If you don't have the business that you dream of, you feel like it's not right, and you're frustrated with your team, you're not the person yet that can create that. But as entrepreneurs, it's so easy for us to externalize all of that. I get many people come to me and they want to focus on their website, they want to focus on lead gen, they want to blame their team. Everything is external. The ironic thing that I found is if I can get them to focus on themselves, get clarity on who they are, what really makes them feel alive and in momentum as entrepreneur, they get really clear on their purpose, then we align the brand, the business, everything around that, everything changes. The website's going to end up changing, their messaging is going to end up changing, their sales process changes. They fire some of their team members. Their team members change. Everything changes in a business once the business owner, the entrepreneur at the helm who is the sun at the center of the solar system changes. Everything has to change by default. But what's incredibly costly, time crazy, and painful is the folks trying to change everything externally without changing yourself which is really creating all that. Tucker: Do you know Jocko Willink, the ex-Navy SEAL? Jason: Yeah, he's written some good books. Tucker: He's got the book Extreme Ownership. That’s his whole thing, it’s extreme ownership. If something's not working out, it's your fault. You got to take some ownership, it’s not the team's fault. The team is following your lead. You're the leader. Jason: I'll share an example. I was talking with somebody and they were complaining about all these different people that had come into their life. They were complaining about this guy, that guy, and this. I said, “Hey, there's one common denominator among all of this. There's one commonality.” Because they were like, “I don't know [...]. All these people are so different.” I said, “There's one thing in common. You. That’s the one thing in common.” The most dangerous thing in the world—property managers know this if they've been in the business a while—one of the biggest red flags for property manager is if somebody comes to them and says with an existing manager or they just fired their last manager and they're complaining about their previous managers. “Oh, this company was terrible.” The dumb property manager would listen to all of that and they would say, “Oh, yeah, they're terrible. We'll be way better.” The correct property manager would say, “Okay, maybe it's this person so I better ask some really good questions before I take them on because I might be the next company that's on their [...] list that's getting attacked on online reviews and negative. I don't want to be that.” That's a red flag. Another red flag is if somebody's referring a client to you. We can't really help them. I teach my clients to do that, to refer the clients they don't like to somebody else. I'm sharing this transparently, everybody. If somebody's referring a client to you, it could mean that they're a terrible client. Sometimes, though, it may just mean that they’re not a fit. One man's junk is another man's treasure when it comes to property management. Some people can deal with that difficult investor and others can't. Some difficult investors can exchange the good ones just by setting a real strong fence and a boundary that some managers aren't capable of doing. That's all they wanted in the beginning, they just wanted safety. That's another advantage you can create. Tucker: The takeaway there, do your homework always. Larry David had a good episode on that. Don't get foisted. Jason: Foisted? I don’t know that term. Tucker: I'll send you a link. Curb Your Enthusiasm episode. Jason: All right. I’ll avoid getting foisted after I launch this episode. Tucker: Tough referral. Jason: Perfect. Expectations do tend to rise but sometimes, expectations are artificially wrong. I saw a post from one of my buddies who's in the restaurant industry today. This girl wrote this note on a receipt saying, “I'm not giving you a tip because I'm only a few days away from my 21st birthday and you wouldn't allow me to have alcohol.” No tip for their whole party, from the whole party of food. This just shows the entitlement that exists in some people. That's ridiculous. Sometimes some people's expectations are unrealistic. I don't think it's too much for somebody to provide good service but to break the law for somebody so that they can have alcohol because, “Hey, my birthday is only a few days away,” come on. Tucker: That's an unrealistic expectation at its finest. Jason: As long as it's in the past. Yes. Some expectations are not manageable and it's not possible for us to raise to that level of their expectation because it's without foundation, it's a pie in the sky, it's a pipe dream, it's not realistic. Now I think the challenge with property managers is there's some things that they think, “This is a status quo, this is how we’ve done it. This is how it is. It's just hard this way.” They think everything else is pie in the sky or fluffy and not possible. They exclude themselves from making those changes. It’s like the guy that's like, “Oh, all girls are just difficult. I'm just going to sit on my couch and eat Cheetos all day. They only want a rich guy or they only want whatever. They just choose out.” In business is the same thing, we can just choose out. Tucker: An all-encompassing saying for every situation you can think of is if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Jason: Right. I've also heard it said if you want dramatically different results or if you want dramatic change, it requires dramatic change. Tucker: There you go, case in point. Then, of course, another bit of jargon of rising tide lifts all ships. That’s it. Jason: I think I touched on that one on this show before of rising tide can raise all ships if the tide is already high enough, but I think the challenge in property management is that the tide is all the way down in some areas. It's low. There are some property management businesses with holes in them like you wouldn't believe and they're sitting on gravel or sand. They're there.  A rising tide is going to sink some ships in this industry, no question, and they need to sink because it's going to help the entire industry. There are property owners businesses that should not be in business or they’re going to have them patch up some holes and make things work better. Tucker: I think to that point, Jason, it's really the ones who are going to sit back and say, “This is the way we've always done it or this is status quo,” because frankly, at the end of the day, the customer has all the power. They're the ones that can make or break your business with one bad review at the end of the day. [...] natural selection, I think. You’re right. Jason: Let's apply this to Breezeway. Breezeway, what are some of the challenges that you deal with in selling your services to property managers? Some of the things that you'll typically hear from them. Tucker: That's a really straightforward one, is that status quo like, “This is where we've always done it.” It's not that big of a headache for us now. We don't think we would use it that much, or what we talked about before, it might be too much work upfront. It's okay. Some people aren't ready for change but we stand by the fact that ultimately, everyone will move towards an operations tool like Breezeway, if not Breezeway. In most cases, when people say no, they come back. We believe that's going to continue to happen as this tide continues to rise and the expectations continue to rise. If you don't have high brand standards, you don't get to be a brand any more because (like you said) the ship sinks. If you can't meet the customers expectations, you're probably not going to have any customers for much longer, so the status quo. Like we said, this isn't stuff that people aren't doing already in a lot of cases. They're just running around and managing chaos in order to effectively do it. What Breezeway allows them to do is both automate as well as ensure that it's actually happening in a way that they hope it will, meeting those brand standards. Jason: You've got customers, right? Tucker: Yeah, we have some. Jason: Okay, good, me too. Can you share an example, a case study, or maybe even some typical situation that you've seen where they've gone from not doing it, struggling, not using Breezeway, to implementing your services, and what results they've been able to achieve? Tucker: Without naming any specific clients, another big piece of pushback that we receive is, “I don't know if my service providers will actually use this,” which is fair, generally considering the fact that service providers aren't tech-savvy, what have you. But one of our clients down south were able to effectively roll this out to their service network. Each one of those service providers now uses our app to download all of their checklists offline. Before, there was no good way for them to do that until they can download the apps all offline. They had pulled them and said, “Hey, would you want to go back to the old way?” which was email, paper and pen, checklist, they’re coming into the office, “Hey, here's your assignment for the day,” or emailing them out to some of the further ones, then they had to submit them all back manually with all the photos attached, and they're like, “Absolutely not. Of course, why would I ever want to go back to the old way?” A bit of an anecdotal story there about some of those challenges that we're seeing at the onset of conversations all being overcome and Breezeway being in a spot where they know no other way now. Jason: There are a lot of tools that a lot of property managers probably shouldn't even touch until they’re maybe about 50 to 100 units, they can't even entertain the idea. They don't have cash flow, they're not ready to use a service, they're a solopreneur maybe, at what stage do you feel like Breezeway can be implemented in a business? Where do they need to be, roughly, in terms of door count, size, who do you guys generally work with? Tucker: Good question. It is on a case-by-case basis to some extent because some entrepreneurs, like you're saying, have higher bandwidth for stress and they can deal with some of those chaotic nuances that go into managing a higher door count as opposed to someone like me who I like to ensure as much automation as possible so I don't let things slip through the cracks in the first place. The sooner I can automate, the better. Then as I scale, I have that process in place. Typical door count, from a short-term perspective, we’ll work with folks in the 50 to 100 range but all the way down to 5 doors too. Again, [...] pay. They like to just automate as much as possible. In the longer-term world, we're talking about the same, range only on the higher scale. So, 50 all the way up to 500 and 1000 doors. Jason: Okay. They can get started with you guys at any point. You guys don't have like 100-door minimum, 200-door minimum, or anything like this? Tucker: No. Jason: Okay. Tucker: We're not turning people away just yet, Jason. Jason: Okay. I do but I'm picky. I'm just kidding. Tucker, this is really cool, the future sounds like technology. Does Breezeway integrate with any platforms? There are so many different tools in property management, I think a lot of people listening to my show nowadays are like, “Oh, gosh, Jason just shared another stupid tool that I'm going to have to figure out how to plug into my business that I really want,” and they've got this to-do list of tools they want to add and implement. How difficult is it to get started with Breezeway and is there any concern about connection, integration, or any of this thing that is really significant? Tucker: I understand why people get concerned with this type of thing. Of course, whenever you're introducing new technology, there's always a concern, especially because folks (like you said) have been burned in the past like, “Oh, another one of these things I have to do.” But at Breezeway, we really aim to be a connected system. From a long-term standpoint, we're working with the folks of the likes of Rent Manager and other folks like them. Then short-term, all the 20-plus of the biggest PMS systems out there. But our goal by the end of this year and the coming year 2020, we're going to just be one of the most connected systems out there, whether it's your remote locks of the world all the way to your streamlines and your rent managers of the world as well. Jason: Got it. People listening might get confused and think, “Is Breezeway a complementary tool to maintenance coordination tools or is it a replacement for these type of tools, where we have, maybe EZ Repair Hotline, Property Meld, and Latchel, these services?” Tucker: Wow, that's a loaded question, Jason. I knew you’re going to come at me with that. Jason: It’s an obvious question. Tucker: It is an obvious question. Jason: I’m just asking what I know my clients are going to be like, “What is this? How does it fit in the overall mix?” Tucker: It's true. Listen, like I was saying before, we want to play nicely with anybody who's out there so we're not going to go ahead and say that we’re a direct competitor for these folks. The other thing is we do a handful of the same stuff. You'll be hard-pressed to be using one of them for maintenance, using Breezeway for cleaning and inspections, and not using us for maintenance. There's a three-legged stool with regards to where Breezeway plays in the operations world and our aim is to supplement the PMS regardless of which one it is, we want to integrate with them. Then if they're using something else for maintenance, that's fine too. Jason: Explain the three legs, what are they just for people that are a little bit lost. Tucker: Yeah, sorry. I'm a big analogy guy. Jason: Take the analogy into reality. Tucker: Here’s the reality, you have your cleaning, inspection, and your maintenance. Those are the three legs we believe of property care and operations. Jason: Got it. What other frequently asked questions do people have when they're approaching you for interest in Breezeway or just any other questions that we haven't covered? Tucker: I don't know, it runs the gamut. We're creating a new category to speak of, property operation which is really something that people haven't heard of. We're excited about it. The main question is probably what is property operations. It's just what I'm talking about. It's really thinking about not just managing a property but actually caring for it and taking into consideration preventative maintenance and safety measures. All that stuff rolled into one in a way that you can do it as hands-off as possible. Jason: Perfect. Okay. Tucker, I think we’ve talked about brand standards, we’ve talked about rising expectations in the industry, we've talked about Breezeway. How can people get in touch with Breezeway? How can they find out more if they want to get in touch and they're interested? Tucker: We are at www.breezeway.io. If you would like to check out our integrations page, it's very simple /integrations. If you would like to meet with me, you can send me an email, tucker@breezeway.io, @CorpoTuck on Twitter, on Linkedin, Tucker F. C. I know a lot of folks are on Facebook, I'm thinking about getting on there, but that's about it. Happy to fill any questions now, it looks like we're getting some coming in on the chat. Jason: We can touch on that. Is this available for homeowners or just landlords and property managers? Tucker: Yeah. Listen, right now, it is primarily for landlords and property managers, but we do see a world where a longer term this will be used by homeowners and the connected home Internet of Things world of the future that we see everything sliding towards. Jason: Someday, Breezeway may know whether my Roomba has done its job or not. Tucker: Exactly. Your Roomba would be automatically scheduled by Breezeway. Jason: All right. Tucker, it’s been great having you on. Everybody check out, it’s breezeway.io. I appreciate you coming on the DoorGrow Show. Tucker: Yeah. Thanks so much, Jason. This is great. Glad we made it happen. Jason: All right, I'll let you go. All right, there you have it, check out breezeway.io. I'm always curious to hear your feedback on this so make sure you guys are inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group. This is our community for all those DoorGrow Hackers out there, property management, business owners, entrepreneurs. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com and that will take you to the Facebook group. Answer all the questions and we'll let you in if you're a property management entrepreneur. Get inside that group. As always, I'd love to hear feedback on what you think about different tools, different things that you're using, and ask questions to other people inside the Facebook group. We’ll give you some free gifts when you join that group, including a bible of fees that you can tack on your property management business. We have a list of really cool tools and vendors in there. You will get an email drip if you provided your email when you join the group. We will be giving you gifts to help you grow your property management business. Eventually, you'll be able to learn a little bit more about what we do at DoorGrow. Make sure you get inside that group if you're not in our community. There are amazing people in there, they're helpful, and they align with my vision of creating collaboration over competition. That's what this industry needs right now. Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.

Do you work because you want to or have to? Have you ever considered investing in land to generate enough passive income that exceeds your fixed expenses? Today, I am talking to Mark Podolsky of Frontier Equity Properties. Mark’s passion is investing in land, creating wealth efficiently, and helping others develop their inner geeky entrepreneurial spirit. He’s known as, “The Land Geek,” for buying and selling thousands of raw and undeveloped land deals. Also, he’s the author of Dirt Rich, a guide to building a passive income model in land investing. You’ll Learn... [02:40] Beat Friday Blues: How and why Mark became a land investor.  [05:40] Breaking Down Passive Income Model: No emotional attachment to land and distressed financially.  [07:26] Property Checklist: Due diligence to confirm ownership, back taxes, no title breaks, and no liens.  [08:25] Buy the property free and clear, and sell it in 30 days or less.  [08:40] Neighbors: Built-in best buyers to protect privacy, views, and expand holdings. [09:09] Other Options: Sites with specialized buyers and sellers of raw and undeveloped land (i.e., Craigslist, Facebook, Land Flip, Land Moto).  [10:00] No renters, rehabs, renovations, and rodents; exempt from erroneous real estate legislation.  [10:48] Price Point of Fixed Expenses: Typically, $10,000 a month in passive income.  [12:05] Operating Entity: Spend a few hours a day on land investing business, and automated software/virtual assistants do the rest.  [14:35] How to get started? Everything is hard in the beginning. Embrace the suck. [16:00] What Mark loves about land investing? No physical inventory, no competition, inefficient market, one-time sale, and passive income.  Tweetables Core Business Philosophy: Happy customers guaranteed. Raw land is the best passive income. There’s nothing not to love about land investing for passive income.  True Wealth: Work where you want, when you want, and with whom you want. Resources The Land Geek Dirt Rich by Mark Podolsky Frontier Equity Properties The Land Geek Podcast Warren Buffett’s Margin of Safety Land Moto Land Flip Dodd-Frank Financial Regulatory Reform Bill Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA) S.A.F.E. Act FortuneBuilders Robert Kiyosaki Zig Ziglar GeekPay DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business, and life, and you’re open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today, I am hanging out with Mark Podolsky. Mark, welcome to the show. I’m going to read your bio here because we want to qualify you and then we’ll let you brag a little bit because you got to do a little bit of starting out here. Today’s topic (for those who are just tuning in) is land investing for passive income. We’re going to learn how to use land investing to create a passive income stream. Mark J. Podolsky (AKA The Land Geek), is widely considered the country’s most trusted and foremost authority on buying and selling raw, undeveloped land within the United States for almost two decades. Mark has been actively investing in real estate and raw land and has completed over 5000 unique transactions. Mark’s company, Frontier Equity Properties, LLC, is an A+ rated Better Business Bureau real estate company. Mark has achieved this level of success largely due to his core business philosophy, happy customers guaranteed. Mark is the host of one of the top-rated podcasts in the Investing Category on iTunes, aptly titled The Best Passive Income Model and The Art of Passive Income. He is also the host of The Land Geek podcast: Work Smart. Earn More. Learn How. Mark, there you go. Give us a little bit of background on you and how you got into this land investing. Mark: Let’s rewind to 2000 and imagine me fighting traffic, 45 minutes in the car there and back, micromanaged, stressed out at an investment banking job, working with private equity groups specializing in mergers and acquisitions. Jason, it got so bad for me that I wouldn’t get the Sunday blues anticipating Monday coming around. I’d get the Friday blues anticipating the weekend going by really fast and heading back to work on Monday. My firm hired this guy and he’s telling me that as a side hustle, he’s going to tax deed auctions, he’s buying up raw land pennies on the dollar, he’s flipping them online, and he’s making a 300% return on his investment. Jason, I’m looking at companies all day long and a great company has 15% EBITDA margins or free cash flow. Great company. Average company is 10%. I’m looking at companies all day long, less than 10%. Of course, I’ll believe him. We go to New Mexico. I do exactly what he tells me to do. I’ve got $3000 saved up for car repairs so I can only buy $3000 worth of land. I buy 10 half-acre parcels, an average price of $300 each. I put them up all online and they all sell 30 days later from an average price of $1200 each. It worked. 300%. I took all that money, I went to another auction in Arizona (which is where I live) and again, it’s 2000. There’s no one in the room, there’s no competition, I’m buying up lots, I’m buying up acres for nothing. Over the next six months, I sold all that property and I made over $90,000 cash. I go to my wife, and she’s pregnant. I said, “Honey, I’m going to quit my job. I’m going to become a full-time land investor.” She says, “Absolutely not.” So I worked land investing part-time and it took 18 months for the land investing income to exceed the investment banking income and then, I quit. I’ve been doing it full-time ever since. Jason: It’s so easy, anybody can do it? Mark: Yeah, I wish. I wish it was so easy. It’s a simple model but anything worth doing in life is not easy. What I could do is I could walk you through the model and then, odds are you’ll just stop the podcast and quit doing what you’re doing and start land investing with me, but that’s okay. That happens a lot. You want me to walk you through it? Jason: Yeah. Mark: Jason, where do you live? Jason: I’m in Santa Clarita, California. Mark: Okay. Let’s imagine that you own 10 acres of land in Texas. I go to the county treasurer and I get a list of people that owe back taxes. Sure enough, there’s Jason Hull in Santa Clarita, California, $200 in back taxes on this 10-acre parcel. Jason, you’re advertising two things to me. Number one, you have no emotional attachment to that raw land. You’re in California. The property is located in Texas. Number two, you’re distressed financially in some way. Because when we don’t pay for things, we don’t value them in the same way. And you haven’t paid your property taxes. As a result, the county treasure keeps sending you notices saying that, “Jason, if you don’t pay your taxes, you’re eventually going to lose your 10 acres to a tax deed or tax lien investor. What I will do is I would look at the comparable sales on that 10-acre parcel. I’m going to take the lowest CUP and I’m going to divide by four. That’s going to get me what Warren Buffett calls a 300% margin of safety. I’m going to actually send you an offer of $2500 on that 10-acre parcel assuming that the lowest CUP is $10,000. I send you an offer for $2500. Now, you accept it because for you, $2500 is better than nothing and you haven’t gone out to look at the property. You just don’t care about it anymore. In reality, 3%-5% of people accept my “top dollar offer.” Now that you’ve accepted the offer, I’ve got to go through due diligence or in-depth research. Number one, I got to confirm you still own the property. Number two, I have to confirm the back taxes are only $200. Number three, I have to make sure there have been no breaks in the chain of title. Number four, I have to make sure there are no liens or encumbrances. I have this whole property checklist and it goes on and on and on. If it’s a property deal that’s worth less than $5000, I’ll actually close it directly with my team in the Philippines. We’re hooked up to an American title company. I pay $11 for due diligence. They’ll give me a whole property report. I’ll get the GIS maps, the plat maps, aerial maps. If it’s an area I don’t know, I’ll have somebody go out there, stamp on the property for me, take a video and shoot photos throughout the property checklist. What are the neighbors doing out there, what’s the road like, all these things. Everything checks out and now, I buy the property from you for $2500. You get $2300 of it, $200 goes to the treasurer, and now I have that property free and clear. I’m going to sell this property 30 days or less. The reason I’m going to do this is I have a built-in best buyer. Do you know who it is? Jason: No. Mark: The neighbors. I’m going to sell that to the neighbour saying, “Hey, here’s your opportunity. Protect your privacy, protect your views, expand your holdings, know your neighbour.” Oftentimes, the neighbors will buy it. If they pass, I’ll go to my buyers list. If my buyers list passes, I’ll go to a little website you might not have heard of called Craigslist (10th most traffic website in the United States). I’ll go to an even smaller one. It’s called Facebook buy-and-sell group and marketplace. And then, I’ll go to these platforms that specialize in buying and selling raw land, landmodo.com, landandfarm.com, landsofamerica.com, landflip.com. It goes on and on. Now, the way I’m going to sell it is I’m going to make it irresistible. I’m going to ask for a $2500 down payment. I get my money out on the down, within (let’s say) six months of that. I’m going to get a car payment, let’s say $449 a month, 9% interest over the next 84 months. Essentially, I’ve got a one-time sale, I have passive income of $449 a month, 9% interest over the next 84 months, no renters, no rehabs, no renovations, no rodents. And because I’m not dealing with a tenant, I’m exempt from Dodd-Frank, RESPA, and the SAFE act (this onerous real estate legislation). The game that we play is can we create enough of this land notes where our passive income exceeds our fixed expenses and then we’re working because we want to, not because we have to. The beautiful part about all of this is 90% of it is automated with software virtual assistants. It’s great. Jason: What is the price point of fixed expenses typically? Mark: For most people, after you earn about $10,000 a month in passive income (that’s $120,000 a year), you’re in pretty good shape. Now, we have some clients who are doctors and lawyers. I have a client. He’s been working with us for 10 months. He’s at $15,000 a month passive and he just went from 5 days a week at his law firm to 2 days a week and he’s spending the rest of his time with his dad who needs help working with him and the other two days doing what he wants to do. We have so many clients that once they hit that point, they retire their spouse. They quit their job. They do what they really want to do in life because the whole idea of this is that we can always make more money but we can’t get more time. For me, true wealth means you wake up and you don’t have to be anywhere. You work where you want, when you want, and with whom you want. That’s really the goal of doing all this. Jason: Love that. What else do people typically ask you about this? When you say it, it sounds really easy. It sounds like something that maybe anybody can do, but it’s like starting a part-time job if you start getting into this. Mark: It is. It is an operating entity. We ask our clients to spend about an hour or two a day doing this. That will move the needle because with our virtual assistants and our software, it’s pretty automated. We actually have automation software for marketing. We can automate our craigslist and our Facebook postings with a posting automator. The only two things that (as CEO of your land investing business) you, Jason, actually have to do, is county research because if you get that screwed up, that whole thing falls off the rails, so you have to pick a good county. From there, you’re going to make sure that you get your pricing right, so you might want to work with a VA, train them, and show them, “Hey, look. Here’s our lowest comps dividing by four. We need a response rate of 3%-5%. If it’s under 3%, our offer is too low. If it’s over 5%, let’s get nervous. Why are they selling us their property? We might have to renegotiate.” We have our metrics in there.  As far as the rest of the process, you can get virtual assistants to do our due diligence. You can get an intake manager that can actually talk to your sellers (because that’s a big time-suck as well). From there, you can close. We like to use Simplifile accountings, so that we can record our deeds online, so I don’t have to go and do a lot of whole paperwork that way. Once we own it, again, we have an inexpensive virtual assistant getting us through GIS, all the neighbors information, uploading that to our software, sending out our neighbor letters. There’s an API with lob.com, which does our mailings. On the backend of it, we use a software called GeekPay.io that is a set-it-and-forget-it system on collecting our money. We get our down payment via credit card and then we get our monthly payments via ACH. It does all the amortization. It does all the calculations. It charges fees but it does it through notifications. If that ACH bounces, it will charge the credit card on file. We went from an 8% default rate to a 4% default rate. I personally worked two hours a week in Frontier Properties, doing the kind of volume that we do. Jason: Sounds great. That’s pretty incredible. How hard is it for somebody to get started with this that’s new? Mark: It’s like anything in life. Everything is hard in the beginning. You know what’s really hard, Jason? Learning to read. We don’t remember it. We forgot how hard that was in the very beginning but you had a good teacher, they broke it down for you step-by-step, and you are with other people. It was just a thing, like everyone can do this and you’re just expected to do it. It’s the same kind of thing. What happens is we’re so ingrained after all these years of schooling that you have to achieve what you achieve, to go back and embrace beginner’s mind and embrace the suck. It’s hard. If you can do that, if you can be comfortable being uncomfortable and you have some grit, you can be successful in anything in life, whether it’s my land investing niche or growing your doors. It doesn’t matter. Nothing worth doing is easy. Jason: It sure is nothing worth doing is easy. The challenge is if somebody is going to choose into doing this, choose into doing property management, or choose into doing any business, they have to fall in love with this. They have to get excited about this. Help the listeners understand what do you love about doing this? Your clients that get involved in this, what do they love about it that’s different from other entrepreneurial ventures that they get into? Mark: The main reason that people like this model is number one, there’s no physical inventory. Number two, there’s little to no competition. If you go on HGTV or the DIY Network, you’re not going to ever see me on Flip This Land. The before pictures is raw land, the after pictures is raw land. It’s not going to be much fun to watch me in front of a computer. If you go to [...] meeting and there are 100 people in that room, 99 of them are house flippers, landlords, or wholesalers. You and I are the only land guys. Number three, you have an inefficient market. I’ve got a hedge fund manager that loves this business because he’s like, “Mark, there are very few inefficient markets left out there. Nobody knows the value of raw land.” Now, that can be very frustrating in the beginning, but it’s also very exciting once you get your arms around it.  No physical inventory, no competition, inefficient, and then you have the fact that it’s a one-time sale and then the passive income versus let’s say I flip a house. I make $20,000 on a flip. I have a new problem. What do I do with my $20,000? I can’t put it in the bank. It’s not going to earn anything. I have to keep redeploying that capital. Once we get to let’s say $10,000 a month of passive income, what our net worth? How long would it take you to have an investment of $120,000 a year at say 2% interest in the bank? That’s over $3 million you and I would have to save. How long, Jason, would it take for you to save $3 million? How long would it take anybody to save $3 million? Jason: I probably would never do it. Mark: Yeah. 12-36 months, you can have that kind of cash flow and then your bankers are really happy with you because your net worth is over $3 million. The fact that—I’m not proud of it—I can’t even screw in a light bulb. I tried to flip a house once. I am not interested in physical things so the subs come out there. I meet the subs. They don’t show up. Just the capital outlay, I started with $3000. My buddy, [...], started at $800. You’re not going to ever get knocked out of the game in this niche. The dollars are just too small. If you go into multifamily housing, you do one bad deal and you’re done for 10 years. You’re BK or you’re just a pariah in the investment community because you lost all your investors money. This is not like that at all. You have an easy entry point, you have no physical inventory, you have no competition. You have a one-time sale on passive income. You have an inefficient market. There’s nothing not to like about it. I think what’s interesting is if you go to a party and you tell people you’re a land investor, they’ll yawn. It’s not sexy. Definitely not sexy. Maybe you lie and say you’re in multifamily housing. Jason: I don’t know if that’s super sexy sometimes either, but yeah. Mark: I mean it depends who you’re talking to. Jason: How do people get started in this? It sounds interesting. My interest is piqued. I’m sure some people listening are interested. How do they get started with this because I’m sure there’s a fairly steep learning curve? There’s got to be a reason why everybody isn’t doing it. How saturated is this? Mark: It’s not saturated at all because again, it’s just not sexy. It’s not conventional. The marketing budgets of the people that are in the house flipping world like Robert Kiyosaki or FortuneBuilders, that’s really where people thought to. Land investing, you have a mental hurdle for people where they think, “Well, I’ve never bought land.” We all know everyone needs a place to live. Nobody needs raw land. You don’t wake up today and say, “Boy, I really got to own 10 acres today.” Jason: That land that nobody is using and nobody seems to want. That land. Mark: Right. It’s a marketing business. You have to interrupt somebody’s day, pique their interest, and make it irresistible. I’ll tell you, after over 5200 deals, I’ve never been stuck with a piece of land. You buy any asset, 25–30 cents on the dollar, there’s someone else on the other end of that deal. Whether it be a piece of land, a car, a trinket, it doesn’t matter. The market is the market. So to get started, I would say you’ve got to learn from somebody who’s done in. For example, let’s say you and I are going to go to Mount Everest together. We’re going to climb this big mountain. Jason: We’re not just going to wing it. Mark: Yeah. You’re going to someone who’s done it a million times and they can tell you the best routes quickly, efficiently, and safely to do it. That’s what you want to do. You can start with that. In fact, for the listeners, I would say that I have a $97 course that I’d love to offer them for free. If they just go to thelandgeek.com/launchkit, they can go ahead and get that course for free. Start there and then see if they like it or not. Jason: Their time investment is 1-2 hours a day? Mark: If that, yeah. It depends if they’re using tools or not. It also depends if they have a scarcity mentality or abundance mentality. A lot of people, when they start doing this, they think they can penny-pinch their way to wealth. They don’t want to use the tools that are out there.  Jason: “No, I’ll do it myself. I’ll watch 120 Youtube videos and figure out how to do it myself.” Mark: Yeah, and you can do that. But again, my whole philosophy is that I can always make more money. I can’t get more time. So, anything that’ll save you time, I’ll invest in. Jason: I say something very similar to my clients. That makes sense. Anything else anybody should know before we wrap this up and how can they get in touch with you? Mark: If you have that mindset that Zig Ziglar says, “If you'll do for the next 3–5 years what other people won't do, you’ll be able to do for the rest of your life what other people can’t do.” You’ve got to get your reps in and you have to embrace the suck. Again, nothing worth doing in life is easy. It might be a simple model, but it’s not easy. You have to take action at some point  Again, the best way to get a hold of me is thelandgeek.com. I’ve got an audio book. I’ve got a book on Amazon called Dirt Rich if you want to just read about it and hear my story as well. It got really good reviews. People seem to like it. It’s not because I’m such a good writer. It’s just that they like it. Jason: Nice. Perfect. Look for the book, Dirt Rich, or check out thelandgeek.com. Mark, this is interesting. I think it’s a new idea that people certainly haven’t heard of this before on the DoorGrow Show. I appreciate you coming on and hanging out here with me. Mark: Jason, thank you so much. Again, I apologize if you’re just going to quit your business and go [...] with me. Jason: I love what I do so. Mark: See? There you go. You can do both. Jason: Both. All right. Maybe I’ll get a few people from this show that are wanting to do both. There you go. Mark, thanks again for coming on the show. We’ll let you go. Mark: Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it. Jason: If you are a property management entrepreneur and you enjoy the show, be sure to like and subscribe. If you’re watching this on Youtube or on Facebook, be sure to share it if you would. We would appreciate that. If you’re in some property management groups, we’d love to see your comments. And if you’re on iTunes, give us a review. We would really love to get that feedback. We’re putting out this content for free. We would love a little reciprocity, people. That would be really sweet of you. I would appreciate it greatly. It helps us get the word out and make a difference in this industry.  If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to grow your business, add doors, you’re struggling, you’re feeling that there’s a scarcity in the industry, there’s no scarcity in property management right now. 70% are self-managing. There’s plenty of opportunity. Reach out, talk to us, and let us help you see how you can align your business towards more warm leads and stop spending so much time trying to go with cold leads, time keepers, and time wasters. The people that are at the very end of the sales cycle are the coldest, crappiest, most price-sensitive. Those are the people searching online. They’re the leftovers that fall off the word-of-mouth table. Come sit at the table with us. We’re DoorGrow. We’ll talk to you soon. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Bye everyone. Until next time, to our mutual growth.

00;00;14;09 [Jason]: Jason Watson with WCG Incorporated here in ColoradoSprings, we're a local tax and accounting firm. Joined by RachaelWeber and Joseph Bassett, both tax professionals for us. We'realso hosted by Axe and the Oak here in Colorado Springs, they'vebeen gracious enough to open up early for us, part of our Bourbonand Business00;00;31;29 series, podcasts and videos. We just got done wrapping up a videoand podcast on some of the bigger deductions that we see, cars,that's always a big one for most small00;00;42;29 business owners, meals and travel. We're going to talk this time or,this time around about home office and then all the other likegoofier ones, if you will.00;00;54;25 So, you know, tell me the rules, Rachael, on the home officededuction.00;01;00;04 [Rachael]: It's got to be used regularly and exclusively00;01;03;27 [Jason]: Okay.00;01;04;26 [Rachael]: In your home.00;01;05;13 [Jason]: Okay, regular and exclusive and have a business.00;01;09;01 [Rachael]: A Business purpose.00;01;09;14 [Jason]: That's probably true for every deduction on a plan, right?00;01;12;18 [Rachael]: Yeah.00;01;12;27 [Jason]: For a business deduction to be a legitimate businessdeduction it has to have a business purpose. So, use regularly andexclusively. So, can you break those words down for me? What's"regular" mean?00;01;23;15 [Rachael]: "Regular" means you would be checking your emails,invoicing your customers, doing administrative work. Okay. Meetingwith clients, holding your inventory. It could mean a whole host of00;01;37;27 [Jason]: Right.00;01;38;03 [Rachael]: of things. You're just doing that on a regular basis, notonce a month00;01;42;26 [Jason]: Right.00;01;43;14 [Rachael]: but on a regular basis.00;01;44;21 [Jason]: Yeah. And one of the words that the IRS will also use too is"continuous", right? This is regular and continuous, it's, it's, got alife, you know, it's got a cycle.00;01;53;28 [Jason]: So yeah, absolutely, regular is a big deal. We have folksthat have a rental, one rental, you know, they have a W-2 job, theyhave all those things and they're trying to say, I have a home officeto manage my rental. It's just never going to happen. Now, if wehave 10 rentals, 6 rentals, that's all you do is manage your00;02;11;02 rentals. We have some people that have 3 or 4 VRBOs or Airbnb,short term rentals and that is all they do.00;02;18;24 [Rachael]: Time consuming.00;02;18;29 [Jason]: Their working that stuff 100% so yeah, so that's regular.How about exclusive Joe? Joseph? What's exclusive?00;02;24;27 [Joseph]: So, let's say you have an extra room in the bedroomthat's you want to use for your home office and it also can't be yourtheater room. So you know, that's gotta be exclusively used forbusiness.00;02;33;20 [Jason]: What if you're a videographer and the theater is yourbusiness? I'm teasing you.00;02;38;03 [Joseph]: Well, you have an argument there. Or, or00;02;38;24 [Jason]: No, but you can't mix the use, yeah00;02;41;07 [Joseph]: Right, unless you run a daycare out of your00;02;42;13 [Jason]: Right.00;02;42;21 [Joseph]: House as well.00;02;43;05 [Jason]: Yeah, and daycare has its own special rules and this is notthe podcast for that because00;02;47;27 [Joseph]: Right.00;02;48;01 [Jason]: I don't know those rules by a memory. I look them up oncein awhile when I have to, but that's it. But right, those are some ofthe shared use stuff can be daycare. Other than that, it's regularand exclusive with a business purpose. So, tell me some of thebank, the benefits of having a home office00;03;05;25 deduction or home office reimbursement.00;03;08;10 [Rachael]: Reimbursement? Is that part of your mortgage interest?00;03;13;15 [Jason]: Okay.00;03;13;23 [Rachael]: Your real estate taxes,00;03;15;05 [Jason]: Okay.00;03;15;19 [Rachael]: Utilities.00;03;16;21 [Jason]: Okay.00;03;17;09 [Rachael]: Could become a small deduction.00;03;19;21 [Jason]: Okay.00;03;21;11 [Rachael]: For you, a business deduction.00;03;21;18 [Jason]: Yeah absolutely. And what are some of those expensesthat aren't otherwise available to be deducted? And mortgageinsurance, we say yes, right?00;03;27;29 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm00;03;28;14 [Jason]: Schedule A property taxes, we say yes, but how about theother ones?00;03;31;04 [Rachael]: Utilities, insurance00;03;33;19 [Jason]: HOA dues.00;03;34;21 [Rachael]: Yeah. Mm-hmm.00;03;35;24 [Joseph]: Repairs. Okay, so suddenly those become deductible andin a world where otherwise it wouldn't be.00;03;40;11 [Rachael]: Right.00;03;40;21 [Joseph]: Yeah.00;03;41;01 [Jason]: Okay, and how do we calculate that home officededuction?00;03;45;17 [Rachael]: Well we do it by square footage.00;03;48;07 [Jason]: Yeah, that is probably the most common, is squarefootage. You could do it at room by room, the IRS allow that, theyactually mentioned that in Publication, what? 587, or whatever it is.But I've never seen anybody do room by room.00;04;00;15 [Rachael]: No.00;04;00;20 [Jason]: It's always, usually, I shouldn't say always, but usually it'ssquare footage, yeah. So what's the basic calculation? It's thehome office space divided by00;04;09;24 [Joseph]: Total space of the house.00;04;10;26 [Jason]: Yeah, the total space of the house. What if you use yourgarage, then what do you do?00;04;15;08 [Joseph]: You include it.00;04;16;12 [Jason]: Include it where?00;04;17;08 [Joseph]: In both.00;04;18;01 [Jason]: In both numerator and denominator? Yeah, exactly. So ifwe're going to take the benefit of the garage and it's not otherwisein the denominator then we have to add it in.00;04;29;26 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;04;30;02 [Jason]: Yeah, exactly. So, that's home office. What's this 50 milerule thing? Who wants to talk about that?00;04;38;14 [Joseph]: Right, so the 50 mile rule's, you know, kind of a safeharbor if you will, that if you know, your home office is within 50miles of your tax home then you can, you know, deduct expensesassociated with00;04;50;29 commuting from the tax home to the home office.00;04;54;17 [Jason]: Yeah, exactly. It's, they want, "they" being the IRS and thetax court, they want your home office to be, there's no written ruleon this, it's more of a contrived rule.00;05;06;23 But your home office needs to be within 50 miles of your tax home.Your tax home is where you earn your revenue. So, the greatexample, in one of the tax court cases, is a surgeon had a home inPennsylvania.00;05;23;05 He drove to New York, I believe, and it was 130 miles away. He wasattempting to deduct all those commuting expenses and becausehe was like, well, I got a home office. So then my commute is frommy bedroom to the basement. And then when I hop in the car, it'sall business miles, and of course the00;05;43;06 IRS and tax court said "No." They said it's too far from your taxhome, basically. So they dis, disallowed all those expenses asdeductible expenses and00;05;54;27 consider them commuting expenses, which is normally a personalexpense.00;05;59;03 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;05;59;12 [Jason]: Non deductible. So, that's this 50 mile rule. What, youknow, talk to me about the audit rate risk for home offices and00;06;09;25 [Rachael]: [Inaudible]00;06;10;00 [Jason]: and, you've, and you've been doing taxes for a little bit oftime.00;06;14;07 [Rachael]: Just a little while.00;06;14;13 [Jason]: So tell me a little bit about the history.00;06;16;12 [Rachael]: It's kind of high. Yeah and it's, it's almost like they canwalk in and assume you're doing something wrong because they're,they're not easy rules. And you know, maybe the square footageisn't complete or they can say, Hey, what's with the day bed andyour home office?00;06;31;02 [Jason]: Right.00;06;31;13 [Rachael]: Or, and it's not just the deductions that you're getting,your utilities, your small amount of additional square footage, butit's that commuting miles00;06;42;07 [Jason]: Right.00;06;42;15 [Rachael]: That are, it's going to be pricey00;06;43;26 [Jason]: Yeah.00;06;44;04 [Rachael]: If its not done right.00;06;45;07 [Jason]: Yeah, absolutely. So, home offices, 20 years ago were notvery common, so it was a high audit rate risk.00;06;53;19 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;06;54;11 [Jason]: Today telecommuters and all that stuff is a lot higher. Butnow we're back to not being seen very often because if you're aW-2 individual working out of your home office for a company out ofCalifornia,00;07;07;05 you would have to deduct that on Form 2106.00;07;10;19 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;07;11;04 [Jason]: And those expenses, those deductions are no longerallowed. So, home office is almost been shrunk down to just forbusiness owners.00;07;18;02 [Rachael]: Yeah.00;07;18;29 [Jason]: So, how are we going to do that? Joseph, talk to, talk to usabout how we're going to do the home office from an S Corpperspective.00;07;28;20 [Joseph]: So, we'll use an accountable plan for the home office forthe S Corp and one of the reasons why we do that, so you know SCorp's are cash basis, you know, and00;07;38;07 [Jason]: Typically.00;07;38;23 [Joseph]: Typically, typically.00;07;39;14 [Jason]: Yes, small businesses enjoy using cash as their method of00;07;43;18 [Joseph]: Right. Accounting, it's simple. Depending on their grossreceipts.00;07;45;18 [Jason]: Yeah.00;07;45;27 [Joseph]: And we just, we have you record it, you know, for like, likeRachael said, your interest, taxes, insurance, and then you getreimbursed by the S Corp for your business use percentage of00;07;58;00 [Jason]: Okay.00;07;58;06 [Joseph]: Business expenses.00;07;59;18 [Jason]: So, just to back up for a viewers and listeners, anaccountable plan is the method used to reimburse people,employees for business use of their personal assets.00;08;13;03 [Jason]: Car, cell phone, home, are probably the biggest ones,right?00;08;16;05 [Joseph]: Mm-hmm.00;08;16;19 [Jason]: So, and we forgot to put cell phone down on our big list ofdeductions, but we can talk about that in a second. So, the benefitto that is we're getting reimbursed by our business. That expense iskind of tucked away on the S Corp tax return, using00;08;35;29 an S Corp in your00;08;36;29 [Joseph]: Mm-hmm.00;08;37;28 [Jason]: example as occupancy expense. Not that you can't defendit, not that we're doing anything wrong, but it certainly is not as highof an audit rate as filing Form 8829.00;08;49;29 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;08;50;06 [Jason]: Which is clearly the Office In Home worksheet.00;08;53;12 [Joseph]: Right.00;08;53;20 [Jason]: That gets tucked on or tacked onto your Schedule C, if youwere to have a business only on your 1040. So, that just shrinksdramatically, the audit rate risk, from home office perspective.00;09;07;06 [Joseph]: And too, S Corp's already face a lower audit ratethemselves.00;09;10;14 [Jason]: Yes, 0.4% given I think 2017 data00;09;14;28 [Joseph]: Mm-hmm, 2017, yeah.00;09;15;02 [Jason]: Is the latest that we have now. So the IRS takes forever tocompile00;09;19;03 [Joseph]: Yeah.00;09;19;11 [Jason]: This stuff. I mean, I guess it makes a little bit of sensebecause audits take time00;09;23;07 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;09;23;18 [Jason]: to generate and to do. But I still like to think we can live ina real time world. You know what I mean? Like we should know likeright now how many audits are happening. So, alright, let's talkabout commuting expenses. You know, you get up in the morning,you drive to WCG Inc, you know, is00;09;45;22 that an expense you can deduct?00;09;47;09 [Rachael]: No, it's not.00;09;48;01 [Jason]: Okay. Are you bummed out about that?00;09;49;20 [Rachael]: Yes, I am.00;09;50;08 [Jason]: Yeah, okay, we should write our Senators and ourCongress people. So, okay, so commute expenses? No. Even ifyou travel far, let's say you moved to Denver and you drove everyday down in the Colorado Springs, it doesn't matter, right?00;10;03;18 [Rachael]: Still personal, yeah.00;10;03;27 [Jason]: Right, so there's no like, Hey, we recognize that you'retraveling really far, we'll give you that deduction. There's nothinglike that. So, commuting expenses, parking, tolls, all that associatedwith going to00;10;16;18 your tax home if you will, are not going to be deductible. So, great,Country Club Dues, Rachel?00;10;23;14 [Rachael]: No, can't do it.00;10;24;15 [Jason]: No! Wow! Just hammered, boom.00;10;28;06 [Rachael]: Sad, yeah.00;10;29;14 [Jason]: Talk to me a little more about that. So we have someonewho has a membership somewhere, but they do entertain, shouldn'tsay that00;10;35;07 [Rachael]: Nope. Yeah.00;10;35;11 [Joseph]: Yeah, discuss business.00;10;36;08 [Jason]: They do discuss business at their country club.00;10;40;17 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;10;40;20 [Jason]: How does that work?00;10;41;29 [Rachael]: Those expenses for the country club dues are going tobe personal.00;10;46;19 [Jason]: Right.00;10;46;25 [Rachael]: It's great that they're generating business00;10;48;29 [Jason]: Yes.00;10;49;07 [Rachael]: At the country club00;10;50;14 [Jason]: Okay.00;10;50;20 [Rachael]: but the dues are not deductible.00;10;52;01 [Jason]: All right, so this same member, buys a meal. The businesspurpose is clear. They00;10;59;20 [Rachael]: Yup.00;10;59;23 [Jason]: Were there to discuss business and now this individual isbuying a meal that's going to get tacked on top of his or her dues.How's that work?00;11;07;16 [Rachael]: That meal portion is going to be 50%00;11;10;14 [Jason]: Okay. Deductible as a business meal. Just, just like we'vealways done.00;11;13;06 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;11;13;09 [Jason]: With meals. Okay, great. Talk to me a little abouteducation. Can you run education expenses through yourbusiness?00;11;20;21 [Joseph]: It depends.00;11;21;20 [Jason]: It depends, ah look just the classic accountant.00;11;24;28 [Rachael]: Yeah, maybe.00;11;26;00 [Jason]: Yeah.00;11;26;14 [Joseph]: If those education expenses are to improve your currentfield, then possibly. If they're to do something completely different,you know so if I was going to go to school to become a doctor now,which probably won't happen.00;11;37;13 [Jason]: Yeah.00;11;37;23 [Joseph]: But, those won't be deductible.00;11;40;03 [Jason]: Right, so the rule is it has to improve your current workskills. And you can even do, deducted a degree or even like, youknow, college courses, even if it leads to a degree, provided it'simproving your current00;11;57;20 work skills. So, you're absolutely correct, the other half of that is ifyou need it for certifications, like your continuing educations and allthat stuff. So, people who are CPAs have to go do all these, youknow, nauseating00;12;10;15 [Rachael]: [All laugh]00;12;11;02 [Jason]: Continuing Ed credits, you know, I'm sure we learned a lottoo, but you know, anyway, so, so that's education. How about yourchildren? Can you hire your children and consider them employeesand have the company00;12;27;10 pay for the education? Who wants to take that one?00;12;31;01 [Joseph]: I would say yes.00;12;32;07 [Jason]: I'd say no. [Laughs]00;12;34;09 [Joseph]: Like, the client advocacy in me would say Yes.00;12;38;13 [Jason]: Yeah.00;12;38;20 [Joseph]: Because of the, the relation though it will be disallowed.00;12;41;15 [Jason]: Right? Yeah, I was giving you a hard time. So section 127says if your child is 20 years or younger, they have attribution toyou as Mom and Dad being an owner of the company.00;12;54;21 If you own 5% or more of the company, you can't deduct thateducation.00;13;00;01 [Jason]: But if your child legitimately works, and is 21 or older, sowe're talking junior or senior00;13;08;24 [Rachael]: In college.00;13;08;29 [Jason]: If you're on a six year plan, you're a sophomore, right?Then the company can pay up to 5,250 a year, I think that's 2019limit. So, that might get index every year, like everything else. So,anyway that's education. How about client gifts? How do youhandle that?00;13;23;16 [Rachael]: Oh, they're $25 cap.00;13;27;08 [Jason]: Ahh $25?00;13;27;14 [Rachael]: I know, its really, yep. Mm-hmm.00;13;28;29 [Joseph]: Well they give you the $4 for gift wrapping, so00;13;31;16 [Jason]: And they give you $4 per pen or something.00;13;33;09 [Joseph]: Per pen, yeah.00;13;33;11 [Rachael]: That's advertising, yes.00;13;37;02 [Jason]: So, talk to me more about the $25 rule. Is that like all giftsor, or is it just for gifts to specific people?00;13;48;14 [Rachael]: It's gifts to a limited clientele. If you were handing giftsout to the general public and it was a lower cost, then that would beconsidered advertising.00;14;00;07 [Jason]: Okay.00;14;00;14 [Rachael]: And I think they give $4 for each advertising gift.00;14;04;21 [Jason]: Yeah.00;14;04;27 [Rachael]: Which I'm not quite sure what, you know, a pen or acalendar or something like that.00;14;08;26 [Jason]: Yeah, I don't know how much stuff like that costs either,yeah.00;14;12;12 [Rachael]: But your $75 wine basket is going to be a $25 businessgift.00;14;17;29 [Jason]: Yeah, and as I've seen it, read it maybe in Journal ofAccountancy, other things like that, but that's an individual limit. Soif you don't donate, or if you don't provide that gift to an individual, ifyou just do it to the business00;14;33;01 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;14;33;10 [Jason]: There might be different rules00;14;34;03 [Rachael]: Yes.00;14;34;13 [Jason]: allowing you to take more deduction. So if you say, DearBob, thanks for all the business00;14;39;27 [Rachael]: versus staff at.00;14;41;03 [Jason]: Yeah, exactly.00;14;42;19 [Rachael]: Yeah.00;14;43;06 [Jason]: yeah, exactly. So, and you can see why, you know, theIRS is always worried about transfer of wealth without taxation.00;14;50;02 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;14;50;12 [Jason]: Right? So if you, if you come in there with a bunch of clientgifts for one person it might look like a transfer of wealth. So, howabout professional attire? I am rocking the WCG.00;15;00;18 [Joseph]: That's true, very nice.00;15;00;29 [Jason]: On my shirt here. But tell me about professional attire.People will constantly ask you00;15;07;09 [Rachael]: Yep.00;15;07;28 [Jason]: I have to look good in my business suit, I have to have mynails and hair done, I have to rock, I have to rock this image.00;15;15;25 [Rachael]: And they're all personal.00;15;17;27 [Jason]: Yes, even though they're dead sexy, right? Even thoughthey're very good looking.00;15;21;21 [Rachael]: And necessary00;15;22;01 [Jason]: Yes.00;15;22;14 [Rachael]: Absolutely necessary. Yeah. So there's a businesspurpose behind it, but no tax deduction.00;15;26;09 [Jason]: Right. So what's the rule?00;15;28;07 [Joseph]: If it's not suitable for everyday wear00;15;30;00 [Jason]: Yes.00;15;30;11 [Joseph]: You can deduct it.00;15;30;20 [Jason]: So, if it's, yeah, so if you can, if it's suitable for everydaywear, easily convertible into everyday wear, then it's not deductible.00;15;38;08 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;15;38;25 [Jason]: Right? Business suits are, you know, clearly somethingyou can convert to everyday use. We do have some, TVpersonalities.00;15;47;10 [Joseph]: Yes.00;15;47;15 [Jason]: We do have some models, you know, and we can, we canidentify some of that attire as costumes, something that theywouldn't, you know, be caught dead in. And that's true for some ofthese models, for sure.00;16;01;26 They wear stuff and they're like, I'm never wearing that in public. Itjust, it looks good on a cover of a magazine, but that's about it.00;16;08;15 [Jason]: Those are costumes, they're not suitable for everyday use.Those are something that we can deduct. TV personalities, they'llbuy, you know, a thousand jackets and they'll give them away andso those become marketing toys00;16;20;19 [Rachael]: Yeah.00;16;20;25 [Jason]: Or ploys or whatever, so absolutely. Let's talk about, perdiem and I'll just kind of talk about this real quick. Per diems a funnything. If you own 10% or more of a corporation and, and also theremight be some00;16;38;21 attribution there, where if your brother or your sister or your Mom or00;16;42;16 [Joseph]: Spouse.00;16;43;12 [Jason]: Whatever, then you are assumed to have the same,greater than 10%. If you are in that boat, you cannot take a perdiem reimbursement. So the scenario would be like this, I'm 100%owner of a corporation. I pay myself $71 a day for every day thatI'm in San Francisco, because00;17;02;15 that's the per diem rate. Let's say using 2018 numbers, I haven'tseen them, I haven't looked at per diem in a while cause we don't,we don't see 2106 expenses anymore. But, that would not beallowed. WCG Inc says, Rachel, we need you to go to, let's sayCortez, we really00;17;18;23 didn't like you very much. I'm teasing, Cortez is lovely. But, and wesay, Hey, we're going to give you $71 per per day that you're00;17;27;08 there for meals, that would be acceptable.00;17;30;11 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;17;30;13 [Jason]: Now that will not be revenue to you. You maybe only spend$20, you know, whatever. You still get to take that $71 as tax freeincome.00;17;40;24 [Jason]: So, because you don't own 10% or more of WCG Inc.That'll change, you know, you'll own, own it all and00;17;49;07 [Rachael]: Eighty-five percent like you.00;17;50;09 [Jason]: Joseph, I'll be working for you one day, it'll be awesome.So, but that's per diem, per diem is a little tricky. There is the, themeals and incidentals component. There is the lodging component.The meals and incidentals component, as far as I know and read it,is00;18;06;24 available to Schedule C, Sole Prop, single member LLC types. Theminute you're a corporation or you act with a corporation through anS Corp election that gets tossed out the window.00;18;18;06 Lodging, regardless, is always going to be actual expenses. Youdon't get the high, low seasonal rates and all that stuff that you seein those per diem tables as a business owner. So, we ran throughhome office, all kinds of good stuff there. We ran through all kindsof other deductions that we get entertained with,00;18;38;10 quite literally, cause some people are pretty clever, right?00;18;41;22 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;18;41;29 [Jason]: With, with their deductions. The bottom line is, people askme all the time and they ask all of us all the time, how do I save ontaxes, right? And the first thing I say is, look, your job is to buildwealth, not save taxes.00;18;56;12 We can save taxes along the way, that's great. But your job in life isto build wealth. Now, if you still want to save taxes the trick is tolook at what cash you're already comfortable with leaving yourbody.00;19;10;24 [Jason]: So go through your checkbook and try to figure out if therewas one thing that you missed or maybe this expense really didhave a business connection to it and I forgot that it did, or to digdeep. So, it's to look at the money that you're already willing tospend and try00;19;28;06 to find a business connection.00;19;29;23 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;19;30;15 [Jason]: Now, I say find a business connection, like discover abusiness connection00;19;35;18 [Rachael]: Not create one.00;19;35;27 [Jason]: Not fabricate a business connection. So anyway, those,those are some of the other business deductions that we see a lotof: commuting expenses, country club dues, education, client00;19;47;20 gifts, professional attire, per diem, all that good stuff. We talkedabout home office in this segment as well. We didn't talk about cellphones. You know, cell phones, you know, folks will try to deduct100%, right?00;20;02;16 [Joseph]: Mm-hmm.00;20;02;21 [Jason]: "I use it for my business," oh, I know you use it for yourbusiness, I see that. But the minute you get a text saying, Heyhoney, you know, you're out of beer you should probably pick somemore up on the way home; and milk and eggs are low too. Nowyour cell phone's no longer 100%.00;20;17;04 [Rachael]: Mm-hmm.00;20;18;17 [Jason]: So, you know our firm-wide soft ceiling is around 80%, ifyou're a realtor, you're probably on the phone all the time. Peoplehave kicked landlines to the curb but still your phone is going tohave a high personal use and I, I believe, we believe as a firm, 20%is00;20;37;00 about the minimum there, meaning 80% is for business.00;20;40;26 [Jason]: Maybe you're a dentist, right? And you use your cell phoneoccasionally, you do have an office phone and all those otherthings, so maybe that's like 30% business use and 70% forpersonal. So, commonly we see cell phones being paid for by thebusiness and they00;20;58;19 truly are a mixed-use asset, so a mixed-use asset should be00;21;03;06 [Joseph]: Paid by you personally00;21;04;10 [Jason]: Exactly.00;21;05;00 [Joseph]: And reimbursed to you on an accountable plan.00;21;06;04 [Jason]: Yup. So, assets that you own personally should be paid forpersonally. If there's a business connection or use of that assetthen get reimbursed. No different than you working for Google andGoogle says, Hey, you know, drive down to the store, pick up some,you know, some pencils and we'll00;21;21;15 reimburse you. Well, you bring in a receipt and you're bringing inyour mileage log, and maybe you have to use your cell phone andall that stuff, and they would cut you a check for the business use ofyour personal stuff. So, anyway those are some of the common taxdeductions that we see here at WCG.00;21;36;06 My name is Jason Watson with WCG. I'm alongside Rachel Weberand Joseph Bassett. We're at the Axe and the Oak and this is a partof our Bourbon and Business series of podcasts and videos and wethank you for joining us and we'll00;21;51;00 talk to you real soon.

One of the privileges we have as the owners of QLB is that we have a panel of experienced entrepreneurs that act as advisers and also happen to be our brokers. On today's episode, we are hosting our first Podcast Panel, these in-house experts are here to answer key questions regarding buying and selling. Jason, Bryan, Amanda, and David have a combined 40 years of experience in brokering e-commerce businesses and are here to share some great insights into their first-hand transaction experience. The discussion today focuses on the sell side and how human behavior can influence a transaction, balancing being a good seller without being a pushover, and finally on valuation and managing expectations from the seller side. Episode Highlights: Can a seller increase their sales amount just by being a good seller? How to handle challenging sellers and tips for approaching the negotiations with them. Thoughts on where seller behavior fits into the entire valuation process. Some of the principals of a good seller and behaviors they should avoid. Where the line is between two being too private and being proactive as a seller. Ways certain SaaS elements can be revealed in due diligence without giving away too much before the handover. Specific contingencies that sellers can hold onto until the signing. The importance of the buyer/seller face to face meeting. Things sellers tend to put too much emphasis on during a transaction. Staying on for extra consult periods as a way to earn buyer trust and confidence. How to temper unreasonable valuations or unreasonable expectations for what market can bear on the part of the seller.   Transcription: Joe: So Mark one of the privileges that you and I have as owners of Quiet Light Brokerage is that we have an unofficial board of directors and highly successful entrepreneurs that are our advisors slash brokers. And we joke often that most of them are more experienced and smarter and more successful than we are. And I think with the panel that you put together in this upcoming episode it's absolutely true. We've got Jason, Brad, Amanda, and David all sharing their experience as advisors, brokers about how to be a good seller and beyond that with the entire transaction. How did the overall panel go? Did everybody behave and give nuggets of wisdom throughout the whole podcast? Mark: Well, naturally I started this all first well it was a pretty interesting idea. I was talking to Amanda about going to a conference down in Austin where she lives and she was invited onto a panel and she said that she'd be really interested in doing stuff like that. So I thought well why don't we do a panel here at Quiet Light and bring forward some of the advisors that have been working on deals. I mean I think the combined number of years on that panel alone was something like 40 some odd years of experience combined. Joe: As buyers or entrepreneurs? Mark: I didn't even get into the; I have no idea how to calculate that. That'd be a much bigger number. My math abilities stop after about 40, 45. Joe: So everything is 40 years of experience for you. Mark: Well I become 42 so yeah everything is; that's going to be the limit. Every year I add one number to my math abilities. The panel was pretty fun. I didn't know how it was going to go. I didn't know if it was going to be too many people on the panel. I was hoping for some discussion between them and we did get into that. We got some great discussion between people who have been doing this for a really, really long time. I wanted to keep the topic pretty simple and just kind of dig into their actual experience in doing deals. I wanted to find out what are they seeing on the sell-side specifically and working with people; humans that can really influence a transaction by their behavior. How much are they seeing that actually come into influencing the price? Jason right out the gate is like look we can sometimes influence the price but the bigger worry here is having a primary effect. If you're a crappy seller you might make this an unsellable business. And that kind of launched off this conversation of what is it; how can you be a good seller? How do you balance this idea of being a good seller who is open and proactive? David talked about being proactive as a seller. How do you balance this proactivity and openness versus being a pushover? What elements should sellers also not necessarily open up on their business right away? And where should they stick their foot down and say we shouldn't be sharing this? A pretty interesting conversation on that front to see what other people's experience was in these different questions that came up. I didn't lay it out right away. Joe just to let you know I asked them to pick out a URI moving forward for the company and I won't tell you what the result was of that. Joe: So I have to listen to this to get the answer. What was the question again specifically and what wiseass comment did Jason make because I'm sure that's exactly where it came from? Mark: You're going to have to listen. Joe: Alright. What was the question though? Mark: The question was choose Joe or Mark. Joe: To do what? And you're like hosting the podcast so you could totally edit it out and tell them no, no, no, no, choose me so it's…for the audience, I want to know Mark has full editing control of the podcast so whatever negative things said about him were completely edited out. Mark: Well, that's actually not true. I don't touch it, in fact, there's a point in there and I'm hoping the editors… Joe: See he's fabricating he's making this up. It's totally true. Chris and Podcast Motor; they do what he tells them to do. Mark: They're the only people in my life that do what I tell them to do. Joe: You man have seven children, that's the way it is. Mark: Yeah, I guarantee nobody in my household does what I tell them to do. Joe: There is teenagers. Mark: There is a point in there; I hope the editors catch this where Amanda cuts out and I awkwardly interject so we'll see if the editors catch that part. If they don't just bear with it because she's actually giving some really good advice during that point in the podcast. Joe: So you and I always joke about or I always joke about the fifth pillar. You always correct me and tell me it doesn't exist. And for those that don't know the pillars, it's growth, risk, gross transferability, and documentation and I always say there's a fifth. It's an invisible fifth and it's the person behind the business. Who you are and how you behave and what you post on Facebook and what's your LinkedIn profile says and it's silly pictures and things of that nature. It has an impact on the overall value of your business. People are going to stroke a check for enough money that is going to make a difference in their life savings and the risk they're going to invest in their future. They need to like you number one, they need to trust you number one; both a number one. That is so so valuable so I love this topic. I absolutely have to listen to see how quickly they all said your name instead of mine. And then I'm going to have to have another panel on with the other four advisors and see what they say. Mark: Sounds great. Mark: Okay, welcome everybody. We're having our very first podcast panel or panel podcast. I don't know what we want to call this but basically, we have a bunch of people on this podcast here. We have Amanda, Jason, David, and Bryan all joined me for a conversation. We've never done this before so we're going to see how this actually works out. The format is going to be pretty simple, I'm just going to ask questions and pick out different people and see what sort of conversation comes from those questions. So, guys, I'm just going to start off with a very simple question. You've got to pick one personally Joe or me; me or Joe? No, don't answer that. I'm just joking. Don't answer that because I already know what the answer would be. You guys would want Joe. Alright so let's; I want to focus this panel on more seller questions because we obviously work with buyers. I know a lot of buyers listen to the podcast but we work with a lot of sellers as well. And so I want to focus a lot on that. What is it like to sell a business? What are some of your experiences? You guys have a ton of experience working with sellers, preparing their businesses for sale, helping them go through that really difficult emotional complex process of exiting their companies so I wanted to try and tap into your collective wisdom here, get some good information and insights into sellers and that process of actually selling a business. And I want to start out by looking at how much influence a seller can have on the value of their business just by how they act with their business. Let's start with you Jason because you are the longest-tenured member of QLB here so I'm going to start with you. I'm going to ask you just a pretty basic question here and that is do you think that you can increase the amount of money; can the seller increase the amount of money they get out of the exit of their business by being a quote-unquote good seller? Jason: Absolutely 100% but it may not be in the way that you're thinking about it. I don't know that your value goes from a million dollars to a million one because you're a good seller. I think it's more binary. I think it's either a million dollars or zero. Meaning if you're not a good seller I think it's likely to spook a buyer to the point where they simply don't want to complete a deal. So I think it's incumbent to be a good seller, to be ethical, to be honest, and very very important to be transparent. So like any little thing about the business that in the back of your mind you think gee I really don't want to talk about that, that's exactly the thing that the seller should talk about with the buyer. Get it out there. Mark: Yeah. Amanda, I know over the years you've also been with QLB for a really long time, we've worked with all sorts of different people. Some people are really easy and a joy to work with and while not dumping on any previous clients, some people are a little bit more challenging. And I want to take a step back and just say something real quick. When we talk about challenging clients, difficult people to work with, the one thing that's always important for us to keep in mind is I get why some people are somewhat challenging. They've built a business, they have a valuable asset, they want to make sure the deal goes through well. So they have a right to a certain extent to be a little bit more challenging. But what has been your experience, Amanda, when you've dealt with a client that might be a little bit more difficult to work with and maybe a little more abrasive in the negotiations? Have you seen that impact the deal that they're able to get? Amanda: Absolutely. I think it's important to actually take those clients and take them aside and say it's really important to look at the feedback that we're getting from buyers and to be reasonable with their expectations. Otherwise, we're not going to deliver for with the deal successfully because the buyer's feedback is super valuable. If you get a lot of feedback that's consistent and a seller is not willing to hear it, it makes it very difficult to take those items there that could be actionable, make them happen, and then get a deal done. I think that also working with abrasive sellers can rub buyers the wrong way because obviously after a deal is done they have to work with the buyers. The buyers work with the seller for extended period time for training and support and it certainly is concerning if a seller is not easy to work with and has a difficult time getting along with the buyer for that matter. So yes it definitely can impact the deal. Mark: Yeah. And I think Jason your point about it being somewhat binary I think is interesting. At the end of the day obviously, we're valuing the business not necessarily the business owner and so Bryan what are your thoughts on what Jason is saying as far as it being somewhat binary? Do you agree with that or do you think that the seller is just one other element of the entire business mix? Obviously, we're valuing the business on its own to a certain extent where does the buyer fit in; I'm sorry, where does the seller fit into that entire valuation process? Bryan: Yes. So I think Jason makes a really, really good point and I'd like to touch on his point about honesty first [inaudible 00:11:30.1]. I think that's probably the most important quality that a good seller can have. But in terms of sort of being a good seller, being more binary than affecting the valuation I think it can be like this and if the seller is really difficult to deal with then disconcerting there is something that's not happening. But I think that being a really good seller can actually also increase the ultimate value that the seller gets out of the transaction simply because being likable and getting along well with buyers is in my opinion likely to induce better offers, induce better conversations that lead to better offers, and thereby can lead to a better and more profitable deals for the seller itself. Mark: Yeah, I think the only issue that I would just if I'm going to comment on this here would be that the buyer is going to look at a business and look at the element of risk. There's always a perceived unknown of what am I actually getting into here. And if you have a seller who is shifty, if you have a seller who is maybe withholding information or is being just kind of; I think Jason to what you're saying, if they're being really abrasive or just mean or whatever yeah that becomes a very binary sort of situation where if I'm a buyer I don't want to get into that because who knows what's going to happen after the sale. Jason: I find in the real world though it's not necessarily that that a seller is abrasive it's more the word you used is good shifty. A buyer just gets the sense there's something that the seller is not telling me. Are they planning to start a competing business the day after they sell? Do they know that this industry is about to hit a brick wall? Are there issues with the supplier? It's that shifty element more than the abrasive element is what I find in the real world. Mark: I would agree with that. I mean the thing that I think people on the sell-side need to understand is that from a buyer's standpoint risk plays into a valuation perceived or real. It doesn't matter if the risk is real or if it's perceived it's still there. And so if you are giving off a sense of risk to a buyer that's going to play in the valuation that you get. So I guess we can put this out there as a plea to be a good seller; to behave correctly. But what does that actually mean to be a good seller? David I'm going to throw it over to you because I haven't got you in on this yet. And sorry, I didn't get to turn in you in the first question here but I want to ask you what are some ways that you've seen from sellers that make them good to work with and things that maybe sellers can do to maybe reduce that element of risk; that perceived risk that they might give out otherwise? David: Yeah, it's a great question. For me, it comes down to three core principles and the guys have touched upon perhaps the most important one right away which is honesty. And then after that, I think it's diligence and knowledge of your own business to the extent that they understand their own numbers in great depth. They understand the reasons, the trends, the way things happen, the problems that they've had; like fully understanding then business. When you have that and have someone with that level of knowledge come on the call with the buyers it's incredibly reassuring that they have this gross knowledge about their own business. And then to a company both that depth of honesty with expertise in their own business. And you know that's not taken for granted because sometimes many entrepreneurs are running multiple businesses and they haven't had the time to focus a lot on one specific thing. So when you have that knowledge it's really helpful. And then the third piece, of course, is productivity. I think that it's easy to come into a selling process perhaps when you are quite emotionally spent even being in the business for a while and to underestimate that a lot of clients will ask some questions and they will want to go back into past historic information and having like a positive mindset about putting that information and realizing that it's also the benefit of the ultimate end goal of the transaction which is to get the best deal terms. Going at that formula very proactive and positive perspective really just creates that like perfect cluster I think of the best seller like proactivity, positivity, honesty, and diligence. Mark: Yeah, that can be a really difficult line to draw because from a seller's standpoint you hear some of these questions and you think I don't want to share this. But at the same time, you don't want to appear shifty. I mean where do you guys think that line is for a seller when they're going through; especially like initially, right? We put up the listing out to the market. I think Brad who is not on this call recently put a listing on the market and had like 300 inquiries on it. We had to shut things down and that client is going through multiple calls one after another after another. And some of these buyers get on and they start asking some pretty pointed questions pretty quickly. What do you think the line is? Amanda I'm going to throw it to you, what do you think that line is where between being a shifty yet still open and honest and proactive as David says? Because I agree with you 100% David that being proactive makes a big difference. So where would you put that line, Amanda? Amanda: I think it has to do with creating expectations for when you're going to open up certain information and letting them know upfront what you're comfortable with. So there are certain things obviously that you want to keep pretty close to you like your suppliers or certain proprietary information that you just don't want to open up to everybody. And so possibly you say okay I'm going to give you all this information; my financials, this is how I do this, this, and this but creating a timeline of when they'll have access to that information based on certain steps being in place and finalizing the deal. And keeping some of that information towards the end I believe has worked really well for most sellers and buyers because if you have that trust level that you built between the two along the way and then you're just basically following the course of actions that have been set out ahead of time then I think that creates a nice flow. And obviously, that's what we want. We want sellers and buyers to both be comfortable through the entire process so that we can get to that finish line. And so I think it is obviously definitely a fine line. But also when a seller and a buyer are working together and they're meeting in person I think that makes a huge impact in what information is shared because you can just feel whether a person is trustworthy or not and what they're going to do with that information. It often comes across just in energy and so oftentimes the seller will let their guard down just when they get to know the buyer a little bit more. But upfront I think obviously you don't want to give 300 people everything you have for obvious reasons. Mark: Yeah and I think for… Amanda: It's about creating expectations. Mark: I would agree 100%. For the buyers that are listening to this, I think the insights that you can take away from this as well is understanding that. Amanda your suggestion is something that we use quite a bit here at Quiet Light during the due diligence process of ordering your requests and understanding some items are going to be more sensitive than others is a really good tip there. It does a great job of helping that seller get put at ease and from the sell-side is a great way for you to protect your more sensitive data by promising this saying I'm more than happy to share this with you but let's first go through these other items first just in case that torpedoes the deal. Bryan, I'm interested to know what your thoughts are where you think the most sensitive sort of data is that sellers might want to consider maybe safeguarding a little bit more than others. Obviously, different sellers are at different levels of comfort. Some don't want to share a single thing about their business and other people are like I don't care. You can't replicate what I did because I got the magic sauce. What sort of information do you think sellers is kind of the main stuff you would probably want to hang onto until the end? Bryan: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it depends a lot on like I said an individual seller. It also depends a lot on the type of the business and the business model, to begin with. So I think with that with an e-commerce business the most closely guarded secrets so to speak might be like Amanda mentioned the vendors with any any business that depends entirely or for the most part on a single or a couple of traffic sources the seller might hold the details of those traffic sources confidential such as for instance in indication of PPC traffic they might not feel comfortable disclosing their full keyword lists and that copies and so forth in the early stages. So it really depends on the business model. It also depends on the business itself and how defensible the business is. Like you said there are some business sellers who are happy to open up absolutely everything because they are fully sourcing that nobody can replicate the business no matter what they sold on but businesses are different and so does comfort level is different. Mark: David and Jason I'd be interested to know from you are there any elements that you have ever run across that have been off-limits in a due diligence process and if so how have you handled getting around that? For example vendor names, customer names, talking to employees; if you're able to share any details on that please do. And I didn't prep before this so if you're not we'll just move on to the next question. Jason: No, that's fine. Well, one thing if I may I just want to add onto what Bryan said. He mentioned about whether a business is replicable. One thing sellers hopefully are aware of, any buyer that's going to see the information has signed I think it's about a five-page non-disclosure agreement which specifically says they're not allowed to scan for ideas to steal. So if a buyer did that they would be blatantly violating their NDA. And a seller would potentially have legal recourse. So hopefully that will give sellers a little more comfort. In regards to what information is truly off-limits, the thing I found is by the time of closing it all has to come out. But some of it does come out essentially at the closing table. So one of the big areas of sensitivity I found is if a business has employees a lot of times the seller doesn't want to mention the sale to the employees literally till the last minute. The reasoning is it could really make them panic and look for other jobs if the deal doesn't go through. The buyer who might be inheriting these employees will have some obvious consternation. They're going to want to know who's about to work for them; are those people planning on sticking around? That can be a really sensitive area. And I've had situations where it feels like we're a lock on that or some other small issue and it always seems to get resolved at the closing table at the 11th hour when finally everyone feels confident that the deal is actually going to happen. David: Yeah and I think to add to Jason's point it's something that comes to mind a lot. Me over the years that's owing a lot of SaaS deals you can imagine the code base is just a really cool secret sauce component of SaaS business and the buyer very naturally wants to see that annotate to see what kind of code quality is annotations and see what kind of architecture is and that creates a lot of shrikes naturally in the owner right away. And it was an interesting bridge trying to think about how we could do that in a very safe way to get to that point that Jason is talking about which is the eventual reveal at closing. And what we did that's worked very effectively over the years and what we do at Quiet Light is show a snapshot of that code base and just provide enough insight and then a high-level like architectural look so that they can see how this sort of modules are put together. And then just a small snapshot so they can analyze the code based on a very discrete basis. Or also consider using a third party due diligence advisor to come in and review the code base and that way the owner is never really hands-on with it. It's being reviewed by a third-party specialist and there's a non-disclosure agreement in place and so you really can actually go into something that looks like quite a difficult issue and something to verify with a lot of credibility and integrity. So that's one of the ways that we've done most to do that with SaaS. Mark: Yeah I think one of the things I've learned over now 13 years of helping people through this is that during the due diligence process oftentimes a buyer comes in and says I need to understand X. And rather than saying in the due diligence process that I need to understand X they say okay I need to understand X and the way to do that is Y. And so what they say is let's do Y. And the seller says I can't do Y. And then the buyer says well what are you trying to hide, right? And so one of the tricks for you guys that I know you guys have done so well over the years is figuring out what is that X; what is the person actually trying to achieve through this request? What are they trying to learn through this request? And David to your point I'm glad you brought up [inaudible 00:25:11.7] because I was going to bring that up. That's one thing that I would consider to be kind of a non-negotiable. If I had a SaaS business and a buyer came in and said I need to get the codebase I would say no. I don't think that that's reasonable mainly because we can satisfy the same information that you're seeking in a way that does not involve handing over the entire code base through a third party due diligence requests or otherwise. I think there are other elements that could be non-negotiable such as if you have a business that has only five clients. And if the buyer wants to speak to those clients there might be a reasonable request there. But it can also be pretty dicing so how do you overcome that sort of friction in a due diligence process. Jason, it looks like you have something that you want to add onto that. Jason: Yeah I mean just touching on that. One thing we were talking about earlier was being a good seller and the corollary is being a good buyer. But one thing I've encountered on occasion is somebody will have experience with having done other deals in the past; either business acquisitions or dispositions or real estate or something. And a person might have an attitude of I've done a lot of deals; this is the way it's always done. And one message I would try to get out to people is just because you've done a deal in a certain way that's not the way it's always done. This panel has done literally hundreds of deals and probably in dozens and dozens of different ways. So I think Mark what you're saying is try to figure out the core of wants and then get creative about how to supply it is probably the most appropriate answer rather than being rigid and saying this is how it has to be. Amanda: I also think to David's point about bringing a third party to do due diligence and possibly a financial audit or an audit of some technology or code it brings a lot of value because it gives the buyer some time to focus on actually what they wanted to do at a business point or it takes the nuances of the financial load because it's so tedious when you're going through financial due diligence or looking at code. And to have somebody else do that who's professional and experienced with that while the buyer can focus on future opportunities and getting prepped and ready for your transitioning into the business then I think there's a ton of value in doing that. And oftentimes it helps the seller feel more comfortable sharing that information with a third party as well. Mark: I'd be curious to see what experience each of you has had with conditional purchase agreements. I've used them sparingly and just I'm going to take a step back, whenever we do the podcast I introduce something that is a little bit outside the normal. Oftentimes I hear from you guys they're saying why are you saying that now everyone is going to want a conditional purchase agreement. So I'm not necessarily encouraging this but I've used it on occasion when somebody really doesn't want to disclose vendor names or really doesn't want to disclose something else. So we say alright let's put together a conditional purchase agreement where basically this thing is binding conditioned on a very specific term. Have any of you others worked with those? Jason: I mean I think like I said I've had some deals where it really seems like it's either going to close or fall apart at the closing table and they've always closed. It's always whatever is that one condition has been revealed right at the very end. Mark: Yeah, and I think I'm going to wrap this up. Amanda, I think one point that you made that I kind of went right on over is meet in person. If I could give one bit of advice to anyone doing an acquisition on the buy-side or sell-side, get together and meet in person. It solves so many problems. If you can spend a couple of days with that person in the same room going over some of the due diligence materials I think it solves a ton of problems or it creates a massive problem that deals shouldn't happen anyways. And that's an outcome that might be okay if the deal is going to be bad anyway. And so a meeting in person is a great suggestion. It's something that I would definitely recommend. Alright, I'm going to ask and move on to another topic here. Bryan I'm going to move this over to you here and that is talking about what's important in the negotiation. When somebody is looking to sell their business oftentimes what we do is we think well I want to get money out of this. I want to get X out of it. I want to get as much as I can possibly get out of it and forget that there's a lot of elements that you have to negotiate. You have a non compete agreement, you have an employment or consulting agreement on top of that. And there's literally probably about a half dozen different things that get negotiated through the process of selling an online business. What are some areas that you've seen maybe a wrong emphasis from sellers in the past where they might put too much weight on one element of a transaction? Bryan: Yeah there is definitely a lot going on in terms of what makes an offer than just total price of the offer. There are things you mentioned and there are seller notes, equity rules, you mentioned an offer can be structured in so many ways. In terms of wrong emphasis, I think sellers are often a little bit perhaps too much against carrying a seller note especially if it's a small seller note. I've seen this sentiment changing over the recent years though and it used to be the case years ago that most sellers would basically only want to want to deal with good cash offers. It's now getting more and more common for sellers to be okay with a 5, 10, or 20% seller note. And the reason why I believe a seller should be more okay with carrying small notes is because that's what I often explain to sellers themselves is that oftentimes those offers that they get that are structured this way are actually going to have bought them more money at the end than a full cash offer route to the extent that they can even easy to consider the seller note to be sort of a bonus on top of what they get anyway. So they can keep pushing for an all-cash offer but it's likely that this all-cash offer would actually go to turn out to be lower than the cash part of the offer that might go to small notes. Mark: Yeah to that we have a podcast I think it probably would have aired a couple of weeks before this episode here with Shannon Stewart who's a tax advisor on the sell-side. And she has an example of a business that sold for 11 million dollars and that she was able to; the net proceeds increased by 43% largely through deferring some of the payments that came in. And when you're talking about an 11 million dollar deal a 43% increase in net proceeds is not a small amount of money. So I would agree, seller notes and knowing how to structure those the right way is is something. Jason what would you say; is there any element that you think sellers tend to overemphasize when they're negotiating? Jason: Yeah I mean I think like Bryan said headline price gets a lot of focus when in reality it's more about how much are you going to get overtime after-tax that you get to keep. And then I think another thing that gets way too much emphasis is multiple. I think a lot of people get hung up on multiple both buyers and sellers and it kind of boils down more to bragging rights than to a discernible business reasoning meaning ohI sold my business for 4X or whatever so I can tell my friends. The reality is okay let's say you pushed the multiple for your particular industry; let's say you're selling an e-commerce business and they normally sell around three times earnings and you managed to push it to four times like you're taking a lot more risk to get to four times you had to accept an earn-out and it's depending on performance and this and that and the other. Even if you collect it all you're earning what you would make in four years anyway. You wouldn't be selling the business if the sole reason was the money that you're getting paid. There are clearly other reasons otherwise you're better to keep the business. So the big advice I give to sellers is the market will determine the value of your business better than anyone on this panel, better than you the seller, better than any individual buyer. We have thousands and thousands of buyers and for most businesses, we get multiple offers. That's the market. If you're not willing to accept what the market will bear you're better to keep the business than to sell it or to try to push the market beyond what it will bear because it very likely could backfire. Mark: Well Jason you're begging me to go into a question that is also on the list. I'm not going to go there yet because I want to stay on this one here and then we're going to get over to that question to wrap things up here. David, I'll be interested in your thoughts on this as well here. Are there elements; I mean you've got a ton of experience in working with sellers just like everybody here, what are some things that you see people often negotiate maybe more heavily than they should and what advice would you give to them on that? David: Well I think certainly on the emphasis question I would say to sellers when they're reviewing any offer that 50% of the decision; only 50% of the decision should come down to purchase price and terms and the other 50% should be based on the execution certainty of the buyer that's actually presenting the offset. Because there's an ocean of difference between coming out with an LOI for your business and actually closing it. And I think it's part of the; well a huge component of hiring a broker and an advisor to help you take that bridge from there to there and I think it's for me sellers that have been really receptive to guidance and advice at that point whether they should take the focus off the headline price off the headline multiple that Jason is talking about and consider the wider context that is this still going to close because the buyer has experience, for example, they have a readily available source of funding their due diligence requests are miles and miles long they're not reliant on any kind of outside financing [inaudible 00:35:22.8] all of these things introduce risk into the deal and ultimately that's risk needs to be looked at properly in the context of the whole deal so I think that's really important. Negotiating terms, one thing that I always recommend for sellers to be open to is the prospect of keeping the window open for like the minority kind of consulting arrangements after the sale. Honestly, we had enough every business through a standard transition period and depending on the size and complexity that can vary. But I think one thing that's actually really good for sellers to think about is maybe staying on to do like an hour or two a month to just say six months longer with the sale and that goes a huge way with buyers knowing that they just have a slightly longer line which the owner has to ask a half an hour-long question in four months time. And to that point about getting the trust and getting the deal over the way, that's a huge point that I think sellers are sometimes like they're spent and they never really want to spend more time on the business. But just that tiny little time investment for just a few moments goes a huge way towards getting a deal on the way and a great value. Mark: Yeah I would agree to that 100%. I remember when I sold my business now a long time ago they asked me to stay on for six months afterwards and they paid me for it; so a regular monthly consulting fee and at first I was like man this is going to be a pain but what I found pretty quickly is it wasn't. It was really easy. It was very easy money that I was bringing in as a result of that. And it really helped with their transition as well. Alright, we're at 35 or about 30 minutes here on this so we're going to round it out with one last question and this is one that is pretty important to me because I think it's what we all do here. We all earn a living in some capacity through helping people exit their businesses and from our standpoint it can be really easy to treat people's businesses as inventory that we're simply moving. And obviously, we don't ever want to go there because we're all business owners ourselves. We've all been through that. We know what work it takes to build these and then how difficult it can be and how stressful it can be to sell them. So one of my pet peeves that have grown over the years is just hearing people say oh man is this seller I was approaching them I wanted to buy their business they weren't selling it but I was doing outreach and I asked them how much they'd sell it for and man his expectations were crazy. It's a pet peeve of mine so I'm kind of implanting here the answer that I want to hear. Amanda; we're going to go left and right on my screen, Amanda, you're first here. Do you think that there is such thing as an unreasonable valuation or is it only really unreasonable expectations of what the market can bear? Amanda: Well I think both actually I think unreasonable expectations for where the market can bear; I mean when we're seeing that right now. Certainly, we're seeing a lot of growth in multiples over the last two years and there's been a push to constantly drive that multiple. And I think we've done a really good job of doing that. But sellers, of course, have their own expectations on what they think that multiple should be because they hear things from other sellers or they possibly got an offer four years ago from a strategic and they decide to pass that. And that has dried up and gone away and is no longer a viable option. And so I think the market evolves really quickly. And I'm actually one of those people who may have unreasonable expectation professional with expertise and proper data to bring somewhere like that back to reality. And I think that that's; actually, the core of it is having realistic expectations with what the market is; the ability of the market at this time because obviously, that may change in six months for better or for worse. I think that whether the expectations are reasonable is less important than the seller being able to be open to the feedback and coming back down to reality. And I think that makes a lot of difference because we see that quite often where sellers will come in and they think their business is for X multiple but then they're open to hearing what we're experiencing, what we're seeing because we do a lot of volumes and then having those realistic expectations is super important. Mark: Yeah and I think one thing I've been trying to remind people as well especially in the sell-side when we get up into the high seven and eight-figure territory; you brought up Amanda that the seller might have gotten an offer from a strategic years ago but obviously never went through or they heard about so-and-so who got a 6X on their business what they never really hear when they hear these big prices is what was the composition of that offer. How much was there actually cash? How much was equity that can be the phantom value? Jason, I know you have a lot of stories about phantom values in equity, right? And so that's something that we don't hear about. It's like the sports contract of oh my gosh they got o120 dollars but it's only 10 million dollars guaranteed and like it's so much in incentives. Jason, what are your thoughts on this aspect of unreasonable expectations on the part of sellers? Jason: I think part of it depends on how you define unreasonable because I look at myself as an example. Most people say I've got very unreasonable expectations of the value of an hour of my time and I will concede absolutely positively. What I expect to earn is way more than what my job will provide and all that means is I need to adjust how I use my time in order to achieve it. So if you're a person who believes your business is worth a lot more than the market will bear, that's perfectly fine. I just think don't be a seller because the market won't provide it. It's important to understand the people on the other end of the transaction are buyers. They're seeking a certain rate of return. You're comparing your business not only to save alternatives like or I mean to a spectrum of alternatives and various safety like bonds, stocks, municipals, real estate. They're also comparing it to other businesses for sale that earn roughly the same amount. You might have roughly the same growth plans. And it can be really frustrating if anyone is banging their head saying no, no, no, no, my business is special and deserves more when the market simply won't bear it out. I think most of us on the panel have kind of learned that there's a range. There's a spectrum where a valuation could be within a certain range depending on certain factors. Sometimes it's worth it to test the market to put out something at a bit higher valuation just that so you see the seller understands that the odds are going to go down the harder you push. And then one other kind of important point I want to bring up, we talked about this on an internal email the other day. A lot of times a seller will call multiple brokerages; they'll call Quiet Light and then two or three of our competitors and that's perfectly fine. We want you to talk to whoever you want to talk to. But one common thing I'll hear is a seller will say to me how much is the business worth and I'll quote a price. I'll say I think it's worth about a million dollars for the sake of argument and they'll say well wait I just talked to Brokerage X and they quoted me a million two, can you get me a million two? My answer is I don't know and neither do they. It's not the broker that's buying your business. It's a buyer that we've not yet identified and all that all of us are doing is giving an opinion. And in some cases, it can be really detrimental to the seller to try to play brokers off each other because the broker's tendency might be well gee if these three other people told you it's worth more maybe I'm wrong and the price gets bid up in the sellers head. And then when you get to market the buyers; the people that are actually writing the check for the business are like what are you talking about you're way out of bounds? So it's really important to remember who's the decision-maker. In my mind the decision-maker is always the person that's writing the check for your business; sometimes that's the buyer, sometimes that's the banker who's funding the buyer, but you always have to cater to that ultimate decision-maker to figure out what's the true value. Mark: Absolutely. So in regards to the value of your time Jason I appreciate you putting it on a payment plan for this little podcast panel because it is pretty crazy. Alright, David, over to you I want to get your opinions on this. David: I think Jason said absolutely the best. I think the market ultimately informs everyone to pick up on what Amanda said it's all about receptivity to that. I mean you can continue on as a business owner with a maybe like a grand ass perspective of the value of your business for a long enough period of time and as Jason said potentially go with the broker that's gone for a particularly inflated valuation. The problem is as Jason and we all know here is that if you come out way too high you will flop in the market and it will be a long long period of time before you then eventually have to come off the exclusivity pulling down the listing and then return back to market at a later point in time often with another advisor and how many times do we see that at Quiet Light with people coming to us from a very correct or whatever having spent an awful lot of wasted time and to cut in to Jason's point all of our time is valuable and we love the perception of it. If you're a business owner with a great business that you want to exit your time is especially valuable. So that decision right out the gate in terms of your receptivity and so what the market will bear is arguably the most important decision when it comes to respecting your own time and getting a process done and completed and money in the bag. Mark: Yeah, I remember probably about a year ago I was recording a potential client and then he came back and said another broker quoted me and said that they could get me this much and it was substantially higher than what I was going to; what I was quoting him at. He said and he's going to reduce his commission to this. I looked at it and I called him and said yeah you should sign with them. How do you counteract that, right? You couldn't really counteract that too much other than say if you really think they can get that and are being less commissioned then you should sign with them. He ended up signing with me later and we ended up getting a really good deal for him. But I think you guys point about valuations being a predictive exercise is on point. Alright, Bryan, I saved the best for last. What are your thoughts as far as these unreasonable expectations or is it just unreasonable expectations for the market? Bryan: I think Chris and David both absolutely nailed it. And I'm glad that they took the conversation the way they did. I think the market is always going to be brutally honest and any valuation mistakes that are being made, any unreasonable expectations are going to be corrected by the market. But I think the one most important thing on this is it is going to be the market who will buy the business it's not going to be the broker. There's no point negotiating the valuation of your business with the broker because it's not in the broker's power to value your business it's the market that values your business ultimately. Mark: Absolutely I'm going around this out and close it up by saying one thing and that is Jason, you said this in what you brought up, if the value of your business in your head is 10 million dollars but the valuation of the market is 1 million dollars just don't become a seller. That's kind of the result. As far as Quiet Light Brokerage, look I know where the value of Quiet Light is. If somebody came up the street and offered me the value; the market value of Quiet Light I would say no. If they are offering me two times the market value of Quiet Light I would say no. If they offered me three times I would still say no because the value of my head for what this business is worth to me right now is way more than what the market value is. I'm not a seller; not going to be a seller for a long long time. And that's totally fine because I love this business. I love working with you guys. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast panel. Guys give us feedback on this. Let us know what you think. If there's something that you want us to do a panel on as far as topics let me know. If you want it to be specific in industries such as e-commerce or SaaS or content sites we can do that as well. We've got a wealth of experience here with the advisors and we're about to be able to tap into them more with these podcasts. So again, thanks everyone for joining this. Let's do it again hopefully sometime soon. Bryan: Thanks, everyone. Amanda: Thank you. David: Thanks, Mark.

How can you reduce the number of times you show a property? Virtual tours. It’s time to weed out unnecessary in-person showings with time wasters and tire kickers.  Today, I am talking to James Barrett of Tenant Turner, a leading property management tool and resource that lets property managers manage tenant leads, schedule showings, and automate the leasing process.  You’ll Learn... [02:59] Goal of Virtual Tours: Educate potential tenants before choosing to visit property. [03:27] Customer-Centric Concept: Virtual tours evolved from quality images to videos. [04:20] ROI: Reduced costs for video camera equipment make virtual tours possible. [07:40] Lack of competition makes virtual tours core to growth and promotion.  [08:28] Direct correlation between virtual tours, time on market, vacancy, and showings. [08:53] Quality over Quantity: Maximize exposure to increase good-fit tenant leads. [13:37] Virtual tours take time and money. Are they worth it? Promoted? Required? [16:29] Record moves, maintenance, and inspections for marketing and leasing metrics. [21:08] Options and Recommendations: Zillow’s 3D Home, zInspector, and Ricoh; or outsource and offload to PlanOmatic, VirtuallyinCredible, and HomeJab. Tweetables Listings with virtual tours increase interest by 250% and generate 49% more leads. One-third of Tenant Turner’s customers do virtual tours; 11% of its listings include them. Do virtual tours. If you do, you’ll be different, reduce vacancy, and make more money. About 45% of millennial renters seek virtual tour technology before making a decision. Resources Tenant Turner James Barrett’s Email Matterport Zillow zInspector Apartments.com VirtuallyinCredible Ricoh National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) PlanOmatic HomeJab DGS 45: Automate Tenant Lead Management with James Barrett and Calvin Davis of Tenant Turner DGS 78: Automating Property Showings with Michael Sanz of Neesh Property DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.  At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest is my buddy James Barrett. James, how are you? James: Doing well, sir. Good to be back on the show. Jason: James and I were just in Nashville, at the Southern States Conference. We got to hang out afterwards and we went dancing. We went out on the town and it was crazy, wasn't it? James: It was a great time. Jason: It was a great time. James: Dance floors everywhere. Jason: The musicians and the talent. Yeah, it was crazy. It was a lot of fun. James: That’s what I tell people about Nashville all the time, the worst musician in Nashville is better than every musician everywhere else, it seems like. Jason: I'm doing open mic night tomorrow night and everyone in Nashville’s better than me, that's for sure. I'm taking the risk, I'm getting on stage. James: That’s right, go out there. You can get a lot of practice behind the mic doing this podcast so it'll… Jason: I don't know if that's the same as singing with the guitar, but yeah. James: We'll see. Jason: We'll see. James, you've been on the show before, welcome back. I'm glad to have you here. In case anybody who’s listening doesn't know James and they can't see his shirt because they're listening, he is part of a company called Tenant Turner, which consistently has been one of the top performing companies for vendors. In our Facebook group, we get a lot of positive feedback from clients on Tenant Turner. I'm glad to have you back on the show. Today, we’re going to be talking about virtual tour technologies, what is that? James: For those of you who might be questioning, “Why is James from a scheduling software, where they do lock boxes and in person showing, why is he talking about virtual tours?” With virtual tours, the real goal is how can you reduce the number of showings that are happening because people are being educated before physically having to go to the property. Jason, as you alluded to with how highly we’re rated within the Facebook group and what not, we are a very customer centric, customer driven organization.  It is something that's come up, particularly more recently, is just the concept of virtual tours. Seeing the evolution of quality images, which was kind of the norm 5-10 years ago. Making sure you have quality, high definition images on your listings, to then moving more to a model of video tours, which is a form of virtual tours but really just the gateway of virtual tours where you're taking a video walking through the home. Now, more and more, we see customers who are adopting these 3D virtual tours like those that are provided by like Matterport. It's becoming very important within the industry because people are investing in this amount of time and effort into these virtual tours and they need to make sure they're seeing an ROI on that. Jason: Are they always seeing an ROI or is that a problem? James: It's been a problem largely because of the investment has always been so high, because one of the big companies that really got into the real estate market was Matterport, one that's very highly rated, but their cameras are $4000. Every property management company in the world might want to do a virtual tour, but at that price point, it's limited.  What we’ve seen more recently is there's now lower cost 360 cameras that are used by not only Matterport, but companies like zInspector which are used by a lot of property managers for inspection software. Really, I think one of the big tipping points is Zillow, who recently came out with their own app that allows you to take a 360 virtual tours utilizing just an iPhone. You're starting to see that barrier to entry drop down pretty significantly but it's still early on in its adoption phases here. Jason: We've had some really great episodes for those listening, if they look at like that so we do with Michael Sanz. He talked a lot about how he's leveraged some of these cheaper cameras and took to offload and to reduce the number of showing significantly. Let's dig in, so how does this apply to Tenant Turner? James: One of the things we have is we have a nice, unique data set that tells us how many people are starting to adopt these types of virtual tours and put them in their listings. We started to see a nice little increase of such tours to date. Right now, it's only about 11% of our active listings, but just a couple years ago, sub 1%, sub 2%. It was really just in its infancy. We started to see faster adoption of virtual tours and one of the things that's also really interesting is 11% of our active rentals have virtual tours associated with them, but now a full third of our customers had at least one virtual tour. Companies in general are starting to adopt more and more of the virtual tours and basically building it to their process. Jason: Let's point this out, people that are using Tenant Turner are probably the more tech savvy, maybe more forthcoming property manager, I mean they're a little more forward thinking, is what I mean. They're early adopters and using your technology. You may have 11% and maybe 33% or whatever a third or have at least one but I would imagine outside Tenant Turner, the number has got to be way lower.  This is still a huge differentiating factor for a management company that say, “Hey, we do these tours.” It's probably really rare that people are going to bump into any competitors that are doing this yet. Even the people that are savvy enough to be using a scheduling software and showing software like Tenant Turner, only 11% of the properties it’s really being used for. James: Yeah, and I think where there's a huge opportunity within the property management space, is now that some of these barriers have been brought down, making it core to your growth model being able to promote the fact that you do this. You actually have an artifact that is created that you can then share with the property owner, that's part of the whole thing, it's part of the inspection process. It's part of your now marketing material where you can say, “Look at these beautiful virtual tours that we're providing,” that really nobody else in your market may be doing. Jason: Yeah and I'm sure there's a direct correlation between virtual tours, and time on the market, and vacancy, and not having to do showings and all of this. James: It's really interesting, there's a lot of similarities between Tenant Turner and our goals and what virtual tours do. With Tenant Turner, we want to make the process as streamlined as possible. On one hand we're generating more leads because we want to make sure we maximize our customer’s exposure, but on the other hand, we want to eliminate anyone who's not a good fit. On the one side, we’re a 24/7 service that can respond to the leads instantly, but on the other side, we have a pre qualification scoring tool that weeds out people who aren’t a good fit. These virtual tours are kind of the same thing but for the other side of the market. With virtual tours, because you have a virtual tour on your listing, statistically it's going to get more page views. It's going to get more clicks.  Apartments.com, they actually did a nice little study on this and it's something that they've started offering through their website is highlighting listings that have virtual tours. There's a 250% increase in time on page for a listing that has a virtual tour versus one that does not Jason: Okay, you said 250%? James: 250%, yep. You got to think too, a lot of these listing sites, they're very vanilla, you can go to Zillow or HotPads or apartments.com and it's pretty cookie cutter in a lot of ways. If you are able to provide a virtual tour and it gets pushed out to those different sites and they can put a little tag or icon next to it, it can go a long way into generating more clicks. Similar to Tenant Turner, they're trying to increase leads with virtual tours and we see more time on page. They’ve also seen a 49% increase in the number of leads. That's one of the goals of virtual tours is how can we get more leads into the top end of the funnel. At the same time, just like Tenant Turner, how we like to weed out people who aren’t a good fit, the virtual tours are helping prospective tenants weed themselves out if they think that the place is a good fit for them. Jason: Right. Yeah, makes sense. James: More leads on one hand but at the same time better fit leads, so that way when it does get time for a showing, you'll ultimately have fewer showings at a particular property but it will be more people who are qualified… Jason: More relevant. James:…exactly, exactly. It's a quality over quantity type solution. Jason: Yeah, I mean relevancy is the crux of everything. It doesn't matter how great the property is or how many tenants you have going through it, if the showings aren't relevant or they're not interested. It allows them to filter it out. They can see the kitchen and say, “No, that's too small,” or they can see the backyard, “That's not what I was hoping for.” They just get a better feel for what it would like to be in it without having actually go and do it. If there is a virtual tour and somebody scheduled to showing they're probably fairly legit interested. They’re probably seriously considering putting an application in on this place. They're probably ready to move. Whereas, instead of getting a whole host of tire kickers and time wasters. James: That's right. What we’re seeing, the big thing right now in our industry is the movement to support self access viewings and whatnot. Within Tenant Turner, only a third of our properties are enabled for self access, because if you have an occupied property, if the owner won’t allow self access to the particular property, if the price point’s too low, you're still going to show and if the price points too high, you're still going to show it. This is a huge tool to help weed out unnecessary in-person showings. If you have your showing agent, like you said, driving around town interacting with all these different tire kickers who would’ve weeded themselves out of the process if they actually saw what it looked like from the curb, if they actually had an opportunity to see the size of the backyard and wouldn’t fit their two or three dogs. If they saw the layout of it and they know they want an open floor plan, but then as soon as they walk in they see it's not an open floor plan, they're going to walk right back out. It is a huge opportunity to generate more leads because you've got people who are going to be more engaged with your listing, but then also allow them to self identify that it's really not a good fit for them based upon what they're seeing in the virtual tour. Jason: Yeah, I mean it's really difficult when you're just looking at a bunch of photos where you’re just seeing an angle from one corner of a room, and that's all you see of each room. It's really hard to get perspective as a renter and you have no idea how these rooms kind of fit together, how that works and what the flow of the place would be like, so all that makes sense. How is Tenant Turner allowing people to get the virtual showings into the listings? James: Yeah, it was kind of a surprising thing that we saw come through our enhancements requests and whatnot, it was just really people—they're spending a lot of money. Whether they own their own Matterport camera or they're putting a lot of time into it and these virtual tours can take anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour to record. Some people like to go in at Matterport and do video editing or maybe they pay a service like VirtuallyinCredible to do virtual tour, where they stitch together the images for you and stuff like that. They're either putting in a lot of time or putting in a lot of money or effort or both.  One of the downsides with a lot of these listing sites,and even with Tenant Turner for awhile was that you couldn't really put links in the description that were clickable that enabled that to be highlighted element. They came through in our enhancement request, just making sure that those things are being promoted appropriately that got Tenant Turner now their own section where people can watch tours. It highlights the fact that that particular listing has a tour versus the ones that do not. The links are in the descriptions, hyperlinks and clickable, which then engages a new window for them to be able to watch the tours before they go through and schedule a showing. Some of our customers, they even have custom questions built into the Tenant Turner Questionnaire that asks if they have viewed the tour. Jason: I was going to say, can they require in order to schedule a showing or even to do a self access, can you require them to confirm that they have seen the virtual tour so no time’s wasted? James: Yeah and that's a huge thing. We've seen that in past questions that customers created. It was really like, “Have you driven through the neighborhood?” was kind of the beginning part of it, because they didn’t want to meet somebody at a home that the person has no idea what the neighborhood is like, if it’s going to be a good fit for them, have they driven by and seen the outside. Now we’re starting to see more people do that with the virtual tours and say, “Have you watched the virtual tour?” If not, draw attention to it before they schedule an appointment, because if they're not satisfied with the virtual tour, they're not going to be satisfied with an in-person tour once they get to the property. Jason; Right. Very clever. What are some other ways that people are leveraging these or making sure that it's all tied together? You're at the forefront of seeing how people are reaching this stuff. I think that's a clever hack to require the virtual tour in some way or fashion. Are there any other things like that that you're noticing people are doing to facilitate this? James: Yes. I think one thing that's really interesting and really smart is particularly the cost of these cameras is dropping and there are more options for property managers than there's ever been before. As you're doing your move outs and some of the homes obviously, they're going to need some maintenance as you turn them over, and maybe a new coat of paint, a new carpet, whatever, but as you do your next move-in inspection, if you have a 360 camera for using the Zillow 3D Home app, if you're using your own iPhone in order to record your pictures and whatnot, use that next move-in inspection as an opportunity to not only record what the status of the home is before the new tenant moves in, but then use that as an opportunity for your marketing material too. A lot of these tools like Matterport for example if you use one of their cameras, it'll take all the pictures panoramic pictures for you, and then you can even take out specific 2D images and use those for your marketing materials too. Basically, if you have the right equipment and your budget allows for it, put the camera on the tripod, put it inside each room, it'll take stance of the entire room, it’ll create a 3D floor plan, it'll create a dollhouse view of the home, and it will create all the individual images that you would need for your listings and for your inspection. Take that as an opportunity to combine the maintenance and loop-in element with the marketing elements so that you can have that 3D tour for that home in the future. Jason: Right. Then when your tenant puts a notice, you can start marketing the property right away, you can put it out there, you can put out the tour and everything else before, and you may be able to get the place rented before it's even vacant. James: Absolutely. That's another big benefit that some property managers are realizing with high quality virtual tours is that they can get the properties rented, sight unseen. If the virtual tour is good enough whether the person lives in town or not, if the property’s occupied and they want to put it out there in the market, there's a higher likelihood that they'll have the home rented sight unseen with a high quality virtual tour. I think that's the goal.  With Tenant Turner, we're trying to manage the leads and schedule the appointments to get people into the home, but ultimately what we're trying to do is streamline the leasing process. If we can help minimize the number of showings to help minimize the amount of back and forth that goes on with these virtual tours, maybe even prevent somebody from going to a property altogether, it's a win-win. Jason: The property managers that are not doing this stuff, if they're tracking their metrics, and they're tracking their average time to get things rented out, their time on market, some of these variables, and then they start using maybe Tenant Turner to start using maybe self access, maybe start using virtual 360 cameras and tours, and all this, they probably will see a dramatic difference. To be able to say in a sales presentation to a prospective owner, “Hey, this is where we were before, like all the companies out there, and here's where we're at now, and what we've noticed,” it's such a huge differentiator in selling point. Even a month of vacancy, even a couple weeks of vacancy can be pretty expensive. In some markets, that could be thousands of dollars depending on the property. James: Yeah. It’s just another kind of tool in the tool belt. I think a big thing is some of the concepts from virtual tours and I think something like Matterport too, just because the cost has been so high, you can get into doing virtual tours relatively easier now because of the Zillow’s 3D home app, you can do it now just with the quality of phones being able to take your own panoramic pictures. I know a lot of people out there, they're using tools like zInspector already for their home inspections, but they also offer a virtual tour tool. There's a lot more out there now than there's ever been before and I think the property managers who are willing to take that leap into putting a little bit of extra effort into it, and putting a little bit of extra time in it, they're going to be the ones to receive the biggest returns by reducing their vacancy, reducing their rent loss to vacancy, but then also like you said, being able to inject those core metrics back into their value prop to their customers. Jason: Between you and me, because it's just you and me right now, just us, if you're hanging out with one of your buddies that runs a property management company and they're like, “Hey, what should I use? What camera should I get? I've got your system Tenant Turner.” What would your go to recommendation be right now? James: I think the Zillow thing is really intriguing because it's free, but for all of us in the industry, Zillow, they're kind of a… Jason: It makes everyone scared. We’re all afraid of Zillow. James: Exactly. Jason: We’re all watching Zillow, but we’re all a little bit afraid. James: With Zillow, I mean they own and control your data because you're recording it in their app, you're uploading it to their servers, and I know a lot of people in this industry, they're thinking at the back of their mind, “It's just a matter of time before I've uploaded this to their servers for free and then they're going to take me out of the process completely because now they have my virtual tour.”  I would say, the Zillow one is appealing because of the cost, it costs nothing to do it, but I do think for property managers who are a bit more sophisticated and a bit more in the know in the industry, and maybe have some fears of Zillow and for good reason, there's a couple of hundred dollar camera, a RICOH camera which is a reputable brand. It works with zInspector, it works with Matterport, you can use it with either one of those products and probably a couple of others, and that's a great place to be able to create these beautiful 360 panoramic vantage points of the rental property.  This is what we saw in the data that we looked at, a third of our customers are doing virtual tours, but only 11% of our listings have virtual tours. The higher end properties or maybe some of your smaller multifamily that you can reuse the layout or use a virtual tour across multiple units, that's where you're also going to get the most bang for your buck. I think as time goes on, maybe we're not quite there yet where this is going to be a ubiquitous part of everybody's process, you can use it as an upsell to an owner, you can use it as something particular for those higher end listings. You tell somebody and say, “Hey, you have a top tier property, you have a beautiful space, and I want to be the property manager for you, and this is how I'm going to do it.” That's part of a way you can help win that management agreement. I don't think it has to be something that's used all the time by every property out there. I think that's a good way to overcome it. If you don't have a camera and you want to test the waters, the RICOH cameras, and there are a couple of them out there, but they're more like $400 versus the Matterport’s $4000. It's a good way to test it out and see if it's a good fit for your organization. To your point earlier is it going to positively impact your key metrics, are you going to see a reduction in your days vacant, are you going to see a reduction of your time on market, are you going to see an increase in either maybe an additional fee or more management contracts because you offer this, and nobody else in your market does. Jason: Say you've got a $20 an hour employee that's helping do some of this stuff, whatever. If it's a $400 camera and if it saves you 20 hours ever at $20 an hour, you’ve broken even on the camera. I would imagine, what is that, 20 showings maybe, or trips out to a place, or whatever. I think it's a no brainer. You could probably justify the $4000 camera if you needed two guys or gals, but $400 is pretty easy to start with. James: Exactly. We have seen with some of the bigger groups, particularly property managers who are tied into larger real estate offices that primarily focus on sales, they tend to have access to the Matterport cameras because these Matterport cameras have taken off more on the for sale side. That's another thing. Whether it's within the NARPM world or within your just local real estate group, you may have a friend that has one. Whether or not they let you borrow their $4000 camera... Jason: Rent it. James: Rent it, that's an option. There are services too, depending upon what you think your choke point is, but there's tools out there or services out there. PlanOmatic is one, Zillow also offers their own network of professional photographers that have access to the 3D tour technology. PlanOmatic is in partnership with Matterport. HomeJab is another new one that has 50 offices nationwide. If your issue is getting somebody to go to the property, take pictures and do the editing, PlanOmatic, HomeJab, those tools are in place. Those services are offered. Jason: You can offload it. James: Exactly. Think about what's the most appropriate part of the process to potentially outsource. VirtuallyinCredible, they do a good job in creating virtual tours that can then be promoted through your various listings, and websites, and whatnot. If you have an editing, if that's where your constraint is, you don't feel like you have the time or talent to do it, there's another place where you can offload and outsource that component to it. You should be doing it, and if you do it, you will differentiate yourself to make more money and reduce your days vacant, so it makes sense to do it, but if you have hesitancies around buying a camera, then borrow one, or use one of these services, or go the Zillow route. If you can overcome that hurdle and your concern is really around editing, and formatting, and getting it to the appropriate level, you can use another one of those services like VirtuallyinCredible who can piece it all together for you, but any stage of the game where you think you have hesitancy or you're resistant to taking it on, there are opportunities to buy equipment or utilize an existing service who’s an expert in it. Jason: Perfect. I think you’ve sold people on the idea of virtual tour technologies. Anything else that that they should know about this that you're seeing from your 30-foot view with all the different property management companies that you're helping them with the leasing side? James: Yeah. I would say one thing to add is that some people might be listening to this saying, “We don't really need to do that, the technology is not there yet,” at least be thinking about this, whether you look at strategic components every quarter, or every year, or whatever, because one of the big statistics that came out of some of the research done by apartments.com and Zillow is, about 45% of millennial renters are really leaning into virtual tours before they make a decision. If you don't think the stats are compelling, if you don't want to try it, just know that the largest group of renters that continues to expand within the markets that we serve, they are looking for this type of technology. Again, it's something that you can use to help sell to your owners, but as you look at quality tenants, this is something that those folks are going to be looking for, and they'll look past your listings eventually if this is not going to be there. Be ready. Jason: I would wager to say there might be a correlation between the most tech savvy of renters and the safest ones to be placing into properties. It might help you attract better tenants. Maybe. James: Yeah, I agree. Jason: Psychologically, it seems sound to me, but who knows. James, it was really cool to have you here again. I don't know when the next conference is but we'll have to go dancing again. James: That's right. Jason: With all our homies. To be clear, it’s not just Jason and I dancing. Jason: No, we’re not dancing together. James: Good times. Jason: You're married, but I'm single again, so I can pick up… James: I could be your wingman. Jason: You’ll be my wingman, I could use a wingman. James: I got you covered. Jason: Alright, well hey, it's really good to see you again. James, it’s really good to see you again. I love what you guys are doing at Tenant Turner. I appreciate you coming on the show and how could people get in touch with Tenant Turner? James: Yeah, if you guys ever need any help with your showings, software, lock boxes, or locks, or ever just a resource to chat with as you can tell, we're really into the data, we’re really into the industry, and we want to be of service to folks. You can reach me at james@tenantturner.com. Definitely come to our website. We’ve got a live chat feature. Anytime you want to speak with somebody, we have folks standing by all US based who would love to hear from you. Come on through. Jason: I saw your Instagram. I'm going to let you get another quick plug here. You have some new lock boxes that you guys are doing now? James: That's right, yes. One of the big and exciting things that we've been rolling out, we've been doing it in a slow launch and actually Calvin, he owns his own property management company, Keyrenter Richmond. He was one of our guinea pig customers. We put new lock boxes on his property. They're SentriLock lock boxes, SentriLock’s a wholly owned subsidiary of the National Association of Realtors. It is an extremely high quality lock box with the six year warranty. For anybody who has had a desire to experiment with self access but maybe was hesitant because of the lock boxes, what we have now is top tier and will last you a good long time and help prevent you from having to go to those properties showings yourself. Jason: Perfect, awesome. Alright, cool. Well James, thanks again for coming on and I will let you go. James: Cool, thank you, Jason, it was a pleasure. Jason: Alright, so great to see him again and have him on the show. Check out Tenant Turner at tenantturner.com and if you are [...] business feel free to reach out. Test your website at doorgrow.com/quiz. Test your website out. See if it's effective, and if not, you maybe want to talk with us and that might help you realize there's that leak, but you probably have several other leaks that we can help you with in your sales pipeline. Our goal is to show up trust, show up those leaks because trust is the speed in which you're able to get clients on close deals and grow your company. That's what we specialize in is helping maximize trust and organic growth and we’re on lead generation at DoorGrow. With that I will let everybody have an awesome day, let everybody go and until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.

To celebrate the 100th episode of the DoorGrowShow, I’m doing something a bit different. Instead of me interviewing someone, I’m the one being asked the questions.  Today, I am featuring my appearance as a guest on the Cashflow Diary (CFD) podcast hosted by J. Massey. We discuss my journey into property management and how to optimize a business through organic growth to achieve success. You’ll Learn... [05:00] Today’s entrepreneurs are like yesterday’s superheroes. They save lives. [06:01] Who is Jason Hull? Someone who has never managed a property, but helps others grow and scale their property management business. [06:48] Being an entrepreneur is in his DNA: Grew up with an entrepreneurial mother, who taught him to make more money and beat the competition. [08:16] Failed Marriage and “Disney” Dad: Jason needed a job that offered freedom and autonomy to spend time with his kids and create clients. [10:13] Website Design, Marketing,and Branding: How to win when competing with Goliaths and make it to the top of Google. [11:53] Financial Decisions: Entrepreneurs like to make money, not lose it. [15:25] Conventional to Comfortable Confidence: Do what works for you, not others, to lower pressure noise.  [20:15] Curiosity: See what others don’t and causes businesses to lose leads and deals. [21:55] Still struggling with imposter syndrome? Hire a business coach who believes in you to rebuild confidence and effective communication to make a difference. [28:55] Why choose property management and deal with tenants, toilets, and termites? [32:53] Why choose Jason and DoorGrow? He helps create positive awareness and address negative perception surrounding property management. [40:00] Cold vs. Warm Leads: Prospecting pipeline plugs leaks to grow business and get people to know, like, and trust you. [44:56] How do good property owners find good property managers? Avoid sandtraps of solopreneurs with few doors; add doors to build a property portfolio. [49:10] Short-term Rental Success: Get a property manager to solve revenue issues. [52:32] Precipice of Decision: Believe in yourself, make it happen, and decide to be different by listening to your truest voice.  Tweetables Today’s entrepreneurs and yesterday’s superheroes save lives and make the world a better place. Entrepreneurism: Insatiable desire to learn and explore opportunities. Entrepreneurs: Allow yourself to do what you need to do to lower the pressure noise. Entrepreneurs create positive, uncomfortable change wherever they go. Resources CFD 542 – Jason Hull On How Property Management Can Change The World Jason Hull on Facebook Steve Jobs 6 Non-QWERTY Keyboard Layouts Alex Charfen (Business Coach) Momentum Podcast DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: This is a special episode because this is our 100th episode. What I wanted to do was share something different. I've been on a lot of other people's podcasts recently and this was one that I really enjoyed, this was with J. Massey of the Cash Flow Diary podcast. He was a really great interviewer, I really enjoyed being on the show. He asked a lot of questions and it really dug into me. I'm not used to somebody really digging into hearing about me as much. I'm usually the one digging in and hearing about other people. I thought my listeners would enjoy this podcast so I asked J. Massey if we could have permission to put this on our podcast and he was glad to let us do so. You get to hear this interview of me being on this episode of the Cash Flow Diary with J. Massey. Enjoy the show. Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. J: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of the Cash Flow Diary podcast. I'm your host, J. Massey. I'm glad that you are here today because we are going to talk about something that I know, and my guest knows, is one of the most, if not the most, critical piece for your success, not only in business but specifically, the real estate world. I know that many of us were out there. We're trying to grow our cash flow. We're trying to make things happen. Build a bigger, better business, and you're doing it and you're succeeding, and that's great. Also at the same time, many of you are like, “Man, if I could just figure out how to take what I'm doing in business and do it in real estate too, that would be great.” Some of you are like, “Man, I just want to grow that real estate portfolio and make it a little bit bigger and better, but I'm still having some challenges in these specific areas because I can't find any good help. I can't make anybody do what I think is common sense. There's just not enough common best practices out there. How on earth, J, can I find that particular property manager?” Or maybe you are that property manager and you're going, “You know what? How on earth can I find that owner that actually knows what's up and won't drive me nuts?” I believe we have solutions for you today. I have with me today none other than CEO, Jason Hull of DoorGrow, doorgrow.com. Some of you may actually know him from his podcast, the DoorGrow Show. What's going to be interesting today is that Jason wasn't always a property manager. We're going to get to find out the story, the journey, and most importantly, learn the lessons around entrepreneurship along the way that have allowed us the world to be able to know and love Jason the way that he is. Here's what we're going to do, ladies and gentlemen. We're going to pay attention, we're going to make sure that, yes, I know you're walking the dog and doing the dishes, but you're going to hit that mark, you're going to bookmark those spots so that you can come back and listen to the gems that he's going to drop. Most importantly right now though, let's just welcome Jason Hull. Jason, how are you doing? Jason: Wow, that's a great intro. I really appreciate that. J: Thank you. I'm glad that you were here. I'm also excited because we're going to be talking about something that I'm passionate about. Real estate's really important, but more importantly, it's the people and the teams that you hire that tend to make things go well, and sometimes, not go so well. I'm looking forward to that, but before I get down there, I have to ask you the same question I didn't ask everybody else the first time that they're here, are you ready? Jason: Do it. J: All right. I tend to look at today's entrepreneurs a lot like yesterday's superheroes—Batman, Robin, Hulk, Wonder Woman, you get the idea—because I think entrepreneurs and superheroes have a ton of things in common. For example, as an entrepreneur, occasionally, I can envision myself using our products and services, flying around town, and saving customers one sale at a time. Also, like a superhero, an entrepreneur has a beginning. If you think about Spider-Man, for example, there was a time where he's just a kid going to school, doing his own thing, taking some photos, and then one day gets bit by a spider, discovers he's got a superhuman ability, and now he has to choose, “Will I use my newfound talents for good or for evil?” My question to you is as follows. Before DoorGrow, before your podcast, before your degree in marketing, your website design, before being a property manager, before everything we know you for today, what we want to know is who is Jason Hull? Jason: That's a deep question. Let's sum up a whole person really quickly here. J: No pressure. Jason: Yeah, no pressure. First thing, let me just correct something real quick, I had never managed property in my life, yet I somehow am attracting property management entrepreneurs from all over the US and beyond, asking for help in growing and scaling their businesses. I'm more of a nerd that used to be secretly in the background, helping them and had to push myself out into the limelight to make a difference in an industry that I could see there was an obvious change needed to be made. But my background growing up, I grew up with an entrepreneur mother. She is this amazing, loving, charismatic woman that is a real estate agent. She's just had hustle in her since she was a little kid. She's told me stories of she saw the other boys mowing lawns and she was doing babysitting when she was young, she was like, “They're making way more money than me.” She went around and she figured, “I could undercut them by a dollar, go door-to-door, and steal their business, and start offering to mow lawn.” She started mowing lawns to make more money. She just had that bite in her to accomplish and do things. I didn't see myself as an entrepreneur, I didn't really know what an entrepreneur was, yet, I think it was just in my DNA. I was the guy in college that decided, “Hey, I want a band so I'm going to start one. I'm going to write all the music.” I was a guy going door-to-door, pre-selling CDs at girls’ dorms with a guitar in hand and a clipboard for an album that didn't exist so that I could pay for the recording time so I could fund an album, but I wasn't an entrepreneur. J: Yeah. No, that’s not entrepreneurial at all. Jason: I was thinking I needed to go get a job. I was like, “I'm going to finish college and I got to then find a job.” What thrust me into entrepreneurism is I had gotten married really young and the marriage fell apart. I had two kids and I needed to be able to have time that I could spend with them. I didn't want to just be Disney-dad. I had to create a situation in which I had freedom and autonomy. The other factor that played into it is my employer at the time got hit by the whole financial mess back in 2006–2007, I guess, and could no longer pay me. I was just doing nerdy stuff for them at the time. Then I realized, they were now a client. I started reaching out and creating clients. One of the earliest people I had helped was my brother who was just getting started in the property management business. He had just bought a property management franchise, he was fresh out of college with his business partner, they had no doors under management, and they had this terrible website they got from corporate. He was like, “Can you just help me figure this out because you're smart? What do I need to do?” I'm like, “Add some phases to it. That'll increase conversion rates. Let's do this and that.” He's like, “Can you just do it for me? Can you please just build me a site?” I'm like, “Sure, but you're going to pay for it.” He's like, “Okay, no problem.” I built him a website and then suddenly, all of his fellow franchisees—this franchise had maybe 200–300 franchisees in it—and I started attracting these people that had thousands of doors. They wanted what he had. They're like, “Hey, what he has is better. I want that.” Really quickly, here's me, a freelancer, web designer, starting to do websites for people with thousands of doors. Some of these are probably million-dollar-plus businesses. They had really great backlinks, so I was at the top of Google pretty quickly and started getting clients around the US within a short time. I was competing against Goliaths, just me. There we go, now then I'm an entrepreneur. I think I just have an insatiable desire to learn, I just always have, and entrepreneurship allows me to really explore and it's really exciting. J: Got it. Now I see how I got confused about the difference between understanding what it is you do versus being a property manager. It's more you help property managers, is what it sounds like, become better versions of themselves with their marketing and advertising. Am I close? Jason: Yeah. Over the years, I've shifted more into coaching and consulting, but we still do websites, we clean up branding. What I tell property management entrepreneurs in short when they come and ask me what I do, I’d say, “I'm not going to teach you how to do property management. I'm hoping you already know that and you're good at it. I’m going to teach you how to win, that's it.” Basically, what we do in short is we rehab property management companies so that they cash flow effectively, so that they have revenue, they have growth. We optimize their business more for organic. We're cleaning up their branding. Probably 60% or 70% of my clients that come to me, I change their business name, which is ridiculous if you consider how painful, challenging, or scary it is for somebody to do that, but I'm really good at helping them see the principles that impact their decisions about what's going to make money or cost them money. Then it becomes just a financial decision. One thing I know about entrepreneurs is that they usually like to make money. J: Yes, definitely, but what I like about what you've shared with us here is to some degree, you're in what I would call the reluctant entrepreneur category because you weren't even considering like, “I'm not one of those. That's not what I do,” and then over time, you start displaying these traits. Now I'm curious, did your mom ever suggest that, “Hey, son, you might be…” and you have this conversation with her like, “No, no, no, I just need to go get a job?” was that ever a thing? Jason: I don't know if I was reluctant. It just wasn't something that anyone had ever explained to me. I don't even know if I really was clear on what technically an entrepreneur was. I think I'd always had an entrepreneurial spirit. I had a paper out as a kid, my mom would have us fold flyers to canvass neighborhoods for real estate as little kids. She would pay us a penny per fold, if we folded a piece of paper twice, we get two cents. I would fold hundreds and then she would have us go around either on roller skates, scooters, or whatever, go around neighborhoods and just canvas and put those out. She'd keep an eye on us, walk around a bit with us, and we would just canvas neighborhoods. I think I was just raised with it and no one had ever put a label on it. J: Oh, man, this is great. I'm sure some people right now are listening like, “A penny a fold? That's nothing.” I'm sure that happens in somebody's head, but the principle was clearly laid down for you in such a way that you're like, “I'll do it. Okay, let's go,” and you didn't care, and spending time with mom is always awesome. But at the same time, this desire gets left behind and you just keep finding ways to create opportunity. That's what I hear when you talk is you just find ways to create opportunity relative to something that you're currently enjoying. I am curious though did you ever actually get the concert CD album sold? How'd that work out? Jason: I did. We did create the album, we created the CD, I wrote all the music for it, I sang every song on it, and yeah, we got it recorded. It's a pretty decent little album for being self-produced. I was very into the Beatles at the time. J: Okay, yes. There's something else that you're also mentioning, the thing that thrust you, I would say is the correct word, into considering something in entrepreneurship in a more realistic fashion was the combination of kids and your employer not being able to employ you, but most importantly, I hear of a deep-seated value. You’re just like, “You know what? Working for someone else can be fine, but I have two kids now and I value spending more time with them, so I'm going to become or do whatever it takes to make sure that I can do that.” I'm curious to know where that comes from. Jason: I think at the core of people that are really entrepreneurial, they know deep down that they're unemployable. Let's be honest. I worked at HP, I worked at Verizon, I was in call centers, I did a lot of nerdy jobs, I was a nerd, and tech support, stuff like that. In every situation I was in, I think something about me is I create positive uncomfortable change everywhere I go. It's just how I'm wired. I cannot be somewhere and leave things as the status quo. I don't do anything normally. If you could see the keyboard sitting on my desk right now, it's not even in QWERTY order, I pop all the keys off and rearrange them when I get a new computer and keyboard. J: I want a picture now that you said that, but okay. Jason: Yes, somebody can just Google if they want to see a different keyboard layout. J: Dvorak? Jason: Dvorak, yeah. J: Yeah, that's the only other thing. I was like, “What else could it be?” The only other thing I was thinking was Dvorak. But okay, that makes sense. Jason: Yeah, because I'm the guy that my brain just says, “Why is everybody doing it this way? Is this the best way? If it's not, I don't care.” Conventional standards mean very little to me. There's a lot of quirky things about me, and I think entrepreneurs are quirky. You look at Steve Jobs or you look at different entrepreneurs, they have weird habits. Like Steve Jobs, I wear the same clothes every day. I have black t-shirts, I have black pants, I have a whole closet full of black pants and black t-shirts. I just want it simple. I don't want to have to make decisions about that. I wear black hoodies, and I put on a conference, I've been around lots of people in business suits, that's what I wear because I don't care. I just want to be comfortable and that's what I wear. I think ultimately, as entrepreneurs, we need to allow ourselves to do what we need to do to lower the pressure noise instead of trying to play everybody else's game. For example, with the keyboard, I realized my wrists were hurting. I was typing a lot. I was getting my degree online at the time, I was also working, and I was typing a lot. I was like, “This seems stupid, this is really dumb. Why are my wrists hurting?” I did what I like to do, which is nerd out, and do some research in Google and I realized, “Oh, Dvorak has 50% less movement, it would cut my movement in half.” The home row on the left hand is all the most commonly-used vowels and the home row on the right hand is all the most commonly used consonants, so there's more back and forth between the two hands. QWERTY’s history was that it was designed and developed to slow down typist. The keys used to be in alphabetical order and they wanted to screw them up because they were typing too fast and the typewriters couldn't handle the speed. I'm like, “Okay, why am I doing this?” It took me, maybe about a month to get used to typing in a different format. My wrist issues went away and I was a lot more comfortable. J: I like you a lot, I like this. It’s like, “Hey, this doesn't work for me. We're going to figure out what does.” I now have this question. What was that transition moment? There's usually a moment at which, like I said earlier, the superhero recognizes. “I have something special here, and now I get to choose what I'm going to do with it.” You clearly had that moment, but that moment is often, we'll call it rocky, not as smooth, or there's usually some strong emotions around it in some way, shape, or form, or some pivotal conversation. What was it like when you realize, “My employer can't pay me. I guess they'll become a client,” and then you go, “Huh, maybe what I need to do is develop a surface around this whole thing and do my own thing?” What was that like? Jason: I think really for me, it's been a longer journey than just right in the beginning. A lot of people see me is a really confident guy, but I really have a strong introverted side. I wasn't that confident guy. In school, I did a lot of performing, I did music, stuff like that, but I still had a strong introverted side. I think that confidence level, part of it happened early on working with entrepreneurs and just recognizing that they couldn't see things I could see. I was like, “You can't see that this is a problem, that you’re branded as a real estate company and it's causing you to lose probably 50% of the deals and leads you should be because you're a property management business, but on the tenants as real estate. There were just things they didn't see that seems so obvious to me. The other thing is I'm really curious. With each client I would work with, just to do a website, I would probably spend on average about six hours doing a planning and discovery process over, maybe a period of a week or two with them. Multiple sessions, getting clear on their target audience, their avatar, what needs to be included in the website, what their avatar’s pain is, what they want. It became really clear to me that most of the websites were focused on tenants, yet they're not hunting for tenants, they don't have problems getting tenants, they want more owners to manage properties for. It just seemed obvious to me that everything was off on the websites that existed at the time. I think I just grew in confidence that I could help people, but I still stayed heavily in the background. I was also in a rough marriage, my second marriage. I was in a marriage in which I didn't really have belief. I didn't have somebody that believed in me and that didn't help the confidence thing going. Eventually, I signed up with a business coach. I went through several different coaches. Some I was a bad fit for, honestly, I just wasn't ready for them. Some, they were a bad fit. Some maybe were really great marketers and terrible coaches. I eventually got a really great business coach that I've been working with for a couple of years now. I remember going down to meet with him in Austin. He has a fantastic podcast, by the way, called The Momentum Podcast. His name is Alex Charfen; a really brilliant guy. I went down and met with him and some other entrepreneurs down in Austin. My business was struggling, we're maybe about $300,000 in revenue annually at the time. I felt like an ant in the room. I was around entrepreneurs that had multi-million dollar companies, I felt completely unworthy, my confidence just wasn't really strong, and yet when he would open up for dialogue, I would end up captivating everyone else in the room, and that was weird for me that I was able to communicate in a way that all of them wanted to know more and they were really fascinated about what I was talking about. I had learned a lot, I just didn't have the confidence yet to put it out there. I hadn't said, “Hey, I'm going to change this entire industry. I'm the one to do it.” I was like, “Somebody else should do it. Somebody that's been a property manager. Maybe somebody that runs a big, huge property management franchise should be the one.” My business coach was like, “Who else could do it? You're the one that you care about it, you're the one who can see what needs to change, and they’re everybody else’s competition. Why would they help everybody?” I'm like, ‘That's a good point,” but I had wicked impostor syndrome. I think that's a challenge for entrepreneurs that we have to kill is that impostor syndrome in which we don't feel like we're enough, or we're good enough, or that we qualify, or we’re worthy. We sometimes think we need to find that external validation to say that we're okay. I think that came just in working with clients. I grew in confidence in situations in which I was able to finally place myself around other entrepreneurs because one of the most damaging things we do as entrepreneurs is that we spend too much time around non-preneurs. J: Yeah, I believe you. Jason: It's painful and it's difficult because we see opportunity everywhere. We see how we can change and impact the world. We want to make a difference, we want to contribute, and the rest of the world looks at us like we're crazy, we're making them uncomfortable. “Why can't you leave good enough alone?” They hear the struggles we go through as an entrepreneur and they say, “Why don't you just get a job?” They look at us like we're crazy and then we look at them like, “Why don't I just slit my wrists now? How can you just sit there and tolerate, complaining about your boss and your job, and living for the weekend? Don't you want something bigger?” We don't understand them, but I think if we’re around non-preneurs too much, it wears us down. It breaks us a little bit. It's really hard and I hadn't really yet been around entrepreneurs. I think as entrepreneurs are starting out in our early development when we're in the early stages of being an entrepreneur, one of the biggest things that hold us back is being lonely. That's it. We're just not around other people like us to say, “You're normal. You, as an entrepreneur, are awesome, amazing, and you can change the world. You don't have to live by everybody else's rules.” J: Agreed. There's something that you said that I often have thought about myself. I know that there are people who are listening have had that same thought at least once. You mentioned that yes, we desire to make a difference, we want to see change, and we're not happy with the, ‘That's just not the way you do it, it should be this way.” That's just how we roll, and yet we're the ones who can see the problem. Like your business coach is saying, why aren't we the ones who can resolve it? But more importantly or said a different way, does that come across to you when you can see an issue? Does it come across to you—I know it does for me—as a responsibility like, “Okay, it’s me, obviously. I'm the one who sees it, this is my thing. So, let me go solve this problem”? That's how it feels to me when I notice opportunity or something that's just not right that could be better. Jason: Yeah. I think there are two sides to this. I think one, opportunity. On the negative side, I think opportunity also can kill us as entrepreneurs because we do see it everywhere. It can be incredibly distracting. There's that opportunist in all of us, and if we focus on too many opportunities, we don't really get to make any headway in anyone. That's a temptation and a challenge entrepreneurs deal with early on is struggle to focus and to niche down. On the positive side, we see that the world can be better. We can see it. We are the change-makers. We are the people throughout history, throughout time eternal probably, that were the ones that would move society forward. We would make everyone uncomfortable, we would change something, and we would move people towards a higher and better ideal. J: Now, let me ask you this question. You could have chosen any industry to serve. Why property managers? I've spent so much time as the one owning the property. This may sound funny to you, but I never considered that property managers had a problem finding owners. That never occurred to me because it just never occurred to me that they had that as a business problem. Obviously, it's there because you're saying it, but as an entrepreneur, you could choose to serve anybody. You could have taken this skill to any industry, so to speak, because believe me, they're not the only one with a problem. Why property management? Jason: That's a really good point. I don't think there was a time in my life as a child that I woke up and said, “I want to help property management business owners when I grow up. I want to get into this industry that's focused on toilets, tenants, and termites, that sounds exciting to me.” J: It's right after firemen, I understand. Jason: Yeah, I'll either be a superhero or I will be a property management coach. J: Yeah, absolutely, totally right. Jason: No, that's a great question. I think I resisted it, to be honest, in the beginning. It came to me like I just started attracting them, I tried to just help every type of business though, still, I didn't niche out. It took me a while. I started my corporation, my company back in 2008, but DoorGrow as a brand was maybe only four or five years ago. It took me a little while to, I guess, choose into that niche fully. I think it was imposter syndrome like, “I've never done this so I feel like I'm not the person to do it.” For a lot of people, it's not the sexiest industry. Here's how you fall in love with property management.If you're an entrepreneur that's a little bit nerdy, property management is like the systemizable, more tech-savvy version of the real estate industry. It's residual income instead of the hunt and the chase for the next deal as a realtor. It's a business that can be optimized over time. It's a business that can follow the theory of constraints and you can make processes around. All of that appealed to me. What I really fell in love with was not property management. It's the people that are property managers. Do you want to talk about resilient, innovative entrepreneurs? Property management entrepreneurs. You cannot imagine the level of challenges, difficulty, and negotiating. I don't think there's any industry like it because in terms of customer interaction, it's rated third behind retail and hospitality; it's heavily a people business. In retail and hospitality, you're not negotiating really difficult situations not unlike a lawyer between two opposed parties as the middle person, but in property management that's what you end up doing. These are really some of the sharpest people. They're just amazing entrepreneurs to be around and honestly, I just chose into doing it because I wanted to be around people that are like me. Entrepreneurs. I love my clients. I love being able to spend time with them. I do not feel weird and I really enjoy that. I have a nerdy background and a lot of the clients that are attracted to me, they like figuring out processes, systems, technology, and that sort of thing. There's just a strong resonance in the type of entrepreneur that is in that industry. J: For the person that's listening right now that happens to be a property manager or maybe it's an owner who's currently doing his own property management in some way, shape, or form, what would you say are the top three things you tend to assist a new client with from day one? How do they know, how can they recognize, “Oh, I need Jason”? What is it that you end up doing over there at DoorGrow for them typically in that first appointment or the first solutions you guys come to the table with? Jason: Let's go back to the question you asked me earlier about the surprising problem that exists in property management. J: Yeah, that is still a thing in my head like, “Wow, I didn't know they had problems finding me? I didn't know that.” Jason: Yeah, every business exists to solve a problem. If a business is not solving a problem, they're stealing money. The problem that exists in the property management industry that I could see, property management has two major challenges. The biggest challenge first is awareness, there are a lot of people that have property. In the US, in single-family residential rental properties, only about 30% are professionally managed, 70% are self managing. The first biggest hurdle is awareness, there's just a lot of people that are not aware of what a property management company would do for them. The average Joe on the street if you said, “Hey, I'm a property manager,” they would say, “Great, I guess you manage a property.” They don't really know what that means. There's a strong lack of awareness to the point where property management really is relatively, in the US, in its infancy. Let's contrast that with Australia. In Australia, 80% of single-family residential rentals are professionally managed. There are reasons for that. There's steeper legislation there, it's more consumer-focused and a lot of that, but the word on the street is that it grew 25% in a decade, it grew massively. But in the US, property management still is this ugly cousin of real estate, it has this negative perception, especially among real estate. The other challenge is property management is the number one source of property management-related issues like fair housing challenges, mismanagement of trust funds, or leases, all this stuff, property management is the number one source of complaints at most any board of real estate. Not real estate, property management is. So, everything property management. This is why it's perpetuated heavily among the real estate industry. Realtors say, “Oh, property management. That's gross. Don't touch that. How could you do that?” The second hurdle that takes the next big portion of potential market share away is perception. Property management has a very negative perception among investors, among people that are aware of it. There's a negative perception that takes away the next big chunk of potential market share. After perception takes a hit, those that are aware and they think they have a decent enough perception to think, “At least, I have to have one or I need one,” or maybe they are okay—there are some good ones—then word-of-mouth captures what's leftover. Word-of-mouth captures the best clients that property management might get. After word-of-mouth, the scraps that fall off my client’s table, that fall off the word-of-mouth table, the coldest, crappiest, worst leads that are the most price-sensitive, that view all property managers as the same and is a commodity, that are the worst owners and properties to build a portfolio on, in which you're going to have probably an operational cost in your property management company of 10 times higher than that of having healthy good doors and owners, those are the people searching on Google. That's what's leftover. Most property management business owners are trying to build their business on the back of Google. I'm wearing a t-shirt right now, you can't see, but it says, “SEO won't save you.” It has a hand reaching up out of the water, trying to grab a life preserver, a black t-shirt with white lettering. This is a message I put out to the industry that they don't need to be playing the SEO lottery because, really, search volume in the property management industry has actually been on a steady decline. According to Google Trends in the US, it's been a steady decline since July of 2011. It's been going down, yet every marketer targeting the industry, every service provider, every web design company, they're shoving and pushing the concept that SEO is going to save them. They just need the top spot on Google. They're playing into this myth, so all these property managers are spending marketing dollars, their hard-earned money, they’re trying to run Google Ads, everything to be at the top of Google, and they're not getting an ROI. They're not getting a return on that investment. It's an incredibly expensive game that has many potential points of failure. You have to be a property management business, usually, at about 200 to 400 doors, with a business development manager. You have to be making sure that all of your phone calls are answered and you're following up on every lead within the first 10 minutes to really play that marketing game. I found most property management business owners were not at that level. I wanted to create them, get them to that level. Originally, I was the guy doing that stuff, I was a marketing company, I was a guy helping with those type of things, and I realized really quickly that it wasn't working. They weren't even answering their phones. Why would I send them a lead that's only good for maybe about 10 minutes—that's how long an internet lead’s probably good for, maybe 15—and then 80% drop off in conversion rates if they're not going to answer their phones? I just pivoted this company and I was thinking, “What would I do if I were going to start a property management business? What are all the most common problems that I can see even in the largest companies? Where are the biggest leaks in their sales pipeline?” Just like the theory of constraints, I just went from the beginning of the sales pipeline, which is that awareness. It's branding. Branding was costing some of them half the amount of deals and leads they could or should be getting. Some companies do real estate and property management. By eliminating real estate from the branding, I helped double their real estate commissions, ironically, because property management is a great front-end product. Real estate is a better back-end product. People don't wake up in the morning and say, “I want to find a realtor today. That sounds exciting to me.” No. They want property, they want to find buyers, they try to for sale by owner, but eventually, they list with an agent. The property management, if you have a constant influx of owners, investors that may get into additional properties, constant influx of renters and tenants, you have buyers and sellers. You have bodies constantly flowing into the business and this is the dream of a real estate company. We just started addressing these big leaks from branding, reputation, which is word-of-mouth, their website wasn't built around conversions and targeting the audience, their sales process, pricing strategy played into this heavily, they were not priced effectively, they were taking too many deals at too low of a price point. Psychologically, for example, there are three types of buyers. Most of them just had one fee, serving one type of buyer, and there was no price anchoring. I just started to see all these different leaks that we could shore up through the pipeline so that we could optimize their business for organic growth. Then the big secret is at the front end of this. Once we get all of these leaks dialed in, their sales process, they have follow-up, all these things are in place, what spigot should we turn on through this pipeline? They could go back and do cold-lead marketing, but cold leads are terrible. Conversion rates are low even if they're a bad A. I don't know what the rating is on your podcast so I'll be careful. If they're a bad A in sales, they’ll only get maybe about 30% conversion rate or close rate, but most people, say 1 out of 10 cold leads, they'll convert. The hidden killer with cold leads in any industry or business—the secret the marketers don't want to tell you—is they can't give you contracts. Marketers cannot give you contracts. You can't hand dollars to a marketer and they will hand you written signed contracts or clients. What they can hand you at best, usually, the furthest they can push it along is usually a really cold lead. That's it. That's typically what they can give you is they give you a cold lead and this cold lead then has to be nurtured. You have to warm it up. You have to get them to know you, trust you, and like you.  Cold leads convert really poorly, usually, you'll get maybe 1 out of 10. The hidden killer though with cold leads is time. This is the hidden killer with cold leads that small business owners don't realize. Time on a cold lead is at least twice as much time as a warm lead or maybe three times as much. I found clients when I would ask them, “How much time do you spend warming these people up, calling them, meeting them at the property?” They say in total, in my sale-cycle time, three to six hours to close the deal. “How long does it take you a warm lead?” I was getting answers like 15 minutes, maybe an hour, it was like half, at least, half the amount of time. These small business owners, if you give them 10 leads in a week and it's going to take them 2 to 3 hours to do all the follow-up necessary and they're going to get maybe 1 or 2 deals out of it, that's a full-time job. They don't have the time, as small business owners, to do that if they're also the main person doing the selling. They just didn't have the bandwidth to do it. It wasn't even possible for me to give cold leads to clients and have them win that game. They didn't have the time. They really work part-time crappy salespeople that had maybe about 10 hours a week to focus on that piece. I had to create a system that will allow them more warm leads. Instead of the front-end of this pipeline, what I teach clients to do is to go to prospecting. There's 70% self-managing. There's so much blue ocean in property management and yet everyone's fighting over the coldest, crappiest, worst leads that fall off the word-of-mouth table, that are searching on Google in the bloody red water. It's created this false sense of scarcity that's so strong in the industry that everybody feels like the industry is scarce, yet there’s 70% self-managing and none of them are really happy doing it. J: I have been doing real estate for over a decade and I have never even considered this concept from the property manager’s perspective in this way. I've always considered them partners. I've never wanted the lowest guy, they’re such a critical piece. Some of the things that you said, I was like, “Why would somebody bargain-basement shop for a property manager? That's just silly, you don't understand, you can't do that. That's not going to work long term,” but I've never thought about the fact that they would have trouble finding the quality owners. Just hearing you describe their world, it's like, “Oh, wow, yeah. I can see why that would be a challenge.” I'm curious, though, when a property manager is out there and trying to make it work—I'm just going to throw it out there—how can the good owners let the good property managers know that, “Hey, yeah, I would love to have you”? Jason: I think the biggest challenge I usually hear is that there aren't any good property managers. How do you find one that's good? Those owners feel completely unsafe. The industry has a really bad reputation as a whole. One of the concepts I teach—all these principles apply to really any industry, in any industry—branding has an impact, reputation has impact, pricing strategy has an impact. There's nothing I'm doing for this industry that is only related to this industry. I think the challenge the industry has, though, is it just has a lot less awareness, but I think that also means there's a lot more opportunity. There's a huge opportunity in property management. If we were to grow even remotely close to how Australia's grown in a decade, that would mean the industry in the US would double. I think property management could be as big as the real estate industry here in the US. There's much potential. I don't think it's been tapped. I think property management in the US has artificially been kept small and it is really a business category that's in its infancy. If you look at business categories that are relatively new in the US, you've got marijuana, vaping, and stuff like this, maybe Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, there's these fledgling industries. Property management's been around a long time, but it's still in its infancy. There's a huge potential there to grow. There are a lot of bad owners. That's true, too. The accidental investors didn't really want to have a rental property, but they needed it, and they just want to get rid of it after a year. If a property manager builds their portfolio on those type of doors, which some do, they have to replace every single client every single year. J: Yeah, that's an untenable situation that would go with that. Jason: Yeah. You'll find property managers fall into this first sand trap of 50 units or so. One question you can ask them is, “How many doors do you have under management?” If they're in the 50 or 60 door category, then I call that the first sand trap. That's one of my key avatars that I want to help is to get them out of that first sand trap. I call that the solopreneur sand trap where they're doing everything in the business, they've taken on too many clients at too low of a price point. And this applies to any industry. As a small business owner, you take on too many clients at too low of a price point, you back yourself into a financial corner, and you take on the worst clients because you're needy, and your operational costs with bad clients are 10 times higher than that of having good clients, easily. One bad property or a bad owner that tries to micromanage you is easily 10 times the operational cost, time and attention, and stress as one good door or one good owner, easily. If you build a portfolio of that, you're stuck. You're backed into a financial corner, you can't afford to hire anybody, and you're losing as many doors as you’re getting on in a year. You're stuck. Sometimes, I have to tell them to do really painful stuff like fire customers in order to create space. J: Yeah, that makes 100% sense. For those that have listened to this far and want to find out more about what you've got going on, what's going to be the best way for them to track you down? Jason: I love connecting with other entrepreneurs and a really easy way for them to connect with me, I'm on every social channel—probably—that exists, because I'm nerdy, as @KingJasonHull. They can connect with me as @KingJasonHull on any social channel, especially Facebook. Then if they're in real estate and they're really considering getting into property management, they've managed rental properties, they feel like they know how to do it, but they want to grow that side of the business and maybe feed their real estate side, or they’re a property management entrepreneur that's been struggling at doors and they want to make a difference and grow, then they can just reach out to us at doorgrow.com. J: Okay, I've got a question I just got to ask now. I wasn't going to do this, but I got to ask. My entire world when it comes to real estate, is all around the whole world of short-term rentals. It's what we do, it's what we teach, it's how our students have achieved success. One of the interesting things is that when we're interfacing with individuals, we often get the question, “Why don't I just get a property manager?” I'm like, “You don't understand. What we are talking about is completely different than what a property manager would typically do.” I'm just curious if the whole idea of short-term rentals or things of that nature, because being able to add that, if property managers took that on, they'd be able to solve some of their revenue issues for sure. Is that something you're seeing happening and in any way with your clients? Jason: Yeah, I think there is a trend of short-term rentals coming into the space. If long-term rental property management is in its infancy, I think that's even younger. There are property managers, especially in more resort-like areas where vacation rentals are more popular, I think all of them have some, they get into that, especially the larger management companies, just by nature of having a larger business and lots of different investors, they're going to have some short-term rentals. Short-term rentals make a lot of sense for them. It's a lot of turnovers, it's a lot more work, but it also can be a lot more payout for them. There is a trend shifting towards that. J: Yeah. I just asked because, in order to do it effectively, there's just specialization that's required. That's why we just stepped up and started doing it because we can’t find the property manager that could do a good a job as we have learned to do and now teach others to do. It’s just like, “You know what? We'll just do it ourselves.” That's what's happening, but at the same time, in the back of my head, I'm like, “Man, they're missing an opportunity. If they would just understand some of these things that we're doing, I think it would work well.” I was just curious, it's been in the back of my head, I'm like, “I wonder, considering you're helping them put their services together.” Jason: Yeah, J, be careful because that is the story that almost all of my clients tell me. You may end up in this industry. That's what they all tell me. They all come to me and they’re like, “I started this business X number of years ago and it was because we were investors and we couldn't find a property manager that was good enough to do things the way that we needed it done, so we started one. They're all bad and we're good,” I hear that almost every day. J: Oh, man, I love it. Okay, as we wind down, I've got a final question for you because I'm really curious to hear your answer. Here's what I know. I know that individuals started the call on one spot, and now, as we’re ending, they're in a different spot. They're at what I like to call the precipice of decision. It's where they go, “You know what? That's it. I can do this. I can make this happen.” Maybe they are a property manager and, “Yeah, I should call Jason. That's exactly what I need to do. I need to track him down, figure this out.” They're drawing that proverbial line in the sand, they're saying that's it, and now they're going to be different. Now, Jason, you know like I know that when we make those types of decisions, we often have a companion, and it's a companion that comes in the form of a voice that says things like, “You? Now, you know good and well last time you tried anything, it didn't really work out. What on earth are you thinking about? Oh, my gosh, no one's going to buy anything from you. You're not going to be able to get any clients, whatsoever, so why don't you just go back to your job?” For some people, they're related to that voice. My question to you is as follows. Let's pretend that this time it's going to be different. This time they're going to do exactly what you suggest and they're going to do so in the next 24 to 48 hours. What would you suggest that they do? Jason: If somebody has a voice, especially if it's an external voice, saying, “You don't have what it takes. You can't do this. You need to play it safe,” they need to find another voice. The truest voice that we all have is the voice deep down. That's never the voice that we have deep down. When somebody says, “Oh, deep down I knew it would be like this,” or, “Deep down I knew I should have done this,” or, “Deep down, I just knew it was the right move.” The voice deep down—you can call that the voice of God, you can call that your intuition, you can call it your gut—is the truest voice and that's the only voice we really should be listening to. Let me close an open loop I left open earlier. I mentioned how I was down in Austin, I'd met with my business coach for the first time down there, I was around all the other entrepreneurs, I felt like an ant in the room, but I was sharing ideas, they were resonating with it. My business coach asked me to describe what I did and he said, “Oh, that'll never work.” Then, I explained to how much money I was making and what I was doing, so he understood it, he looked at me and he said, “Jason, you have a $20 million company and you don't even know it.” Do you want to know what I started doing? I started crying. I had had little validation, I had much resistance from spouse, I just had no support around me in terms of being connected to entrepreneurs, I started crying in front of a room of other entrepreneurs. I needed that in that moment, badly. Fast forward. In a year, I had 300% growth. We were a million-dollar company in about a year. I was crying and it was like a cathartic thing that somebody could see what I felt deep down and they believed in me. I don't know if there's anything more powerful than that to be seen for who you really are and I think that is the love or energy that we all need as entrepreneurs in order to grow. We need that belief. J: 100%. I definitely appreciate the journey that you have been on. I thank you for taking the time to distill your knowledge down in such a way that you could then share it, become the person that's capable of sharing it, and influencing an industry that's very close to my own heart. At the end of the day, it's where it's been at for us for quite some time, it's where we're going to stay, but the more that you enable property managers to do what they do and find the customers that they need, the better I think it all gets for everyone. Just let me be the first to say thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, wisdom, and insight here with us today at the Cash Flow Diary. Jason: J, it's been an absolute pleasure. In line with what you just said, I really do believe deep down that good property management can change the world. The impact that they can have in that industry is massive. They're affecting homes, families, on the tenant and the owner’s side. They're affecting people's cash flow. They're affecting their finances. They're affecting real estate investors that got into the real estate investing with the myth that it could be turnkey. The impact is massive and I think that's what gets me excited about the industry. We're contribution-focused banks as entrepreneurs, we want to have an impact. I appreciate you allowing me to share that message and to be here on your show. J: All right, ladies and gentlemen, you know what time it is? It's time for you to move at the speed of instruction. What does that mean? That means get over to doorgrow.com. That means go listen to his podcast. That also means connect with him. He said he wants to talk to you, it's very simple, ladies and gentlemen. One of the things that I hope you learn from today's episode is when you see a need, it's probably your responsibility to go fill it and just figure it out along the way. You don't need to understand everything at the beginning, but over time, you can get there. But most importantly as you heard and I heard, you want to follow that path, follow that voice that is telling you there's greatness inside. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been fun talking to you today. I look forward to talking to you soon. Until next time. Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Property management is hard enough. As your business becomes successful, don’t always say “yes” or “no” to everything. Owners are coming to you to solve a problem. Step into potential opportunities without being pulled in multiple directions. Today, I am talking to Marc Cunningham, President of Grace Property Management, who identifies five characteristics that define successful property management companies.  You’ll Learn... [02:42] Entrepreneurial Footsteps: Marc grew up in real estate property management world working for his dad, who founded Grace Property Management in 1978.  [04:02] Doors in Denver: Grow slow and steady; from 110 to 1,000 doors.  [04:32] Mantra: Follow the opportunity. [07:15] However you define success, companies follow some of these five standards.  [07:56] #1. Filter and Qualify Owners: Don’t take every owner that comes along.  [20:04] #2. Know your numbers to know how well your business is doing.  [31:43] #3. Focus on profit, not door count. People are willing to pay for additional value. [37:20] #4. Have systems and processes in place, and follow them.  [43:50] #5. Recruit, develop, and retain talent.  [52:28] Marc’s Extra: #6. Hold weekly one-on-one meetings with each team member.  [53:15] DoorGrow Extra: #7. Invest consistently in your own development.  [56:27] DoorGrow Extra: #8. Get coaching to help grow your business.  Tweetables The more successful you get, the more opportunities come your way. Cycle of Suck: Taking on bad owners, you get bad properties, tenants, and reputation. You won’t regret firing difficult clients, despite emotional and operational costs. Track metrics regularly because numbers make a difference. Resources Grace Property Management Marc Cunningham's Email Business Health Check-up Form QuickBooks Steve Jobs FilterEasy PetScreening Process Street Basecamp Voxer Google Sheets AppFolio Help Scout Drift Intercom Traction LeadSimple DGS 25: Why Every Property Manager Should Implement Profit First DGS 80: Automating Your Business with Process Street with Vinay Patankar DoorGrown Cold Leads Calculator DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. This guest that we have today is a fantastic gentleman named Marc Cunningham. Marc, you're not a stranger to most people probably listening to the show. Welcome to the show. Marc: Thank you for having me, Jason. Jason: I'm really excited to have you here. It's strange that you haven’t been on here yet. At the beginning of the show, I was like, “Have you been on here? You're like, “No.” I said, “It's long overdue.” Marc: I’ve just been waiting for the invitation. Jason: Okay, well I'm glad we finally got you invited. I’m glad you're here and today's topic is going to be the five characteristics of successful PM companies. Before we get into that, I want you to share a little bit of your background to qualify yourself to the audience, help them understand how you got into property management and what your connection is to these five characteristics of a successful company. Marc: Absolutely. Let me start by asking you a question. What were you doing in 1978 Jason? Jason: 1978? Marc: Yeah. Jason: I was probably pooping in a diaper and drinking breast milk. Marc: Okay. That image there. Jason: I was born in 1977. Marc: Okay, so you’re one. I wasn't much older than that, but in 1978 my dad decided that he was going to quit teaching—he was a middle school teacher—and he was going to follow his entrepreneurial real estate dream. We opened up a real estate property management company Grace Property Management 1978 in Denver. I was employee number one because I was pre child labor, so my dad would have me doing all the things that kids probably shouldn’t do. He would have me showing properties, mowing lawns, collecting rents, and filling out lease, just anything that needed to be done. I grew up in that world, so it really gave me a unique view into real estate, into property management, and just in the business because that's all I knew. That’s all we did. As I got older, I’d take my summers, I’d worked for him in the summers, and again just doing whatever needed done. If I get really lucky, if it gets too hot out, I’d work in the office. When it got over 110 degrees, the deal is I get to come into the office, otherwise I’m mowing lawns. I did that for many, many years. I went to Colorado State University, I studied finance and real estate there, and I was working in Cheyenne, Wyoming doing accounting work there. My dad called me one day and he said, “Hey, I need to hire a property manager, are you interested?” Well Cheyenne Wyoming, with all due respect, isn't the most fun place to live, so I jumped to that opportunity and that was about 20 years ago, 20 some odd years ago. I joined the firm permanently at that point in time. At that time, we were relatively small, I think we had 110–120 doors and we have grown slowly and steadily over the years. Today, we do both residential and commercial. We've got just under a thousand doors that we manage. We do real estate sales, we do property management, we’re investors ourselves—I own some stuff—we flip. Our mantra is follow the opportunity. If there's an opportunity to real estate, we want to look at that, whatever that is. So, that's how we've gotten to where we are today. Jason: I was just down in Vegas speaking to a group of property managers and they were bringing up like, “How do I avoid all this distraction and move the business forward?” What I said to them is opportunity is I've noticed is what kills entrepreneurs. How do you keep following the opportunity at all times but also keeping your focus narrow enough that you're actually moving forward. Marc: That's a great question. That's a really good question and that's hard. It is really hard because we found that the bigger we get, the more successful we get, the more opportunities that are out there. At this point, we're of the belief that you've got to say no to almost everything. I think it was Steve Jobs that said, “The difference between successful people and really successful people are the really successful people say no to just about everything.” Jason: Following the opportunity as a mantra doesn't mean saying yes to every opportunity. Marc: It does not mean saying yes to everything. You need to consider everything. What I don’t like is people say, “No, we don't do that.” For many, many years, for example, we didn't do real estate sales. “Hey, will you help me sell my house?” “No, we don’t do that. We only do property management.” We didn't consider. Well then, one day we thought, “Maybe we should consider it,” and as we considered it, we realized, this is a really good opportunity that we should capitalize on. Where when an owner says, “Gosh, I want to sell my house. Would you guys be interested in buying it?” “No, we don't do that.” Well, stop saying, “No, we don't do that.” At least think about it, consider it, and I think that's the way to step into some potential opportunities. But yes, you have to be cautious or else it will get you pulled to many directions. Jason: Relevant to that, how many of these units are now in your own portfolio, are yours or your company's? Marc: I don't have a real big portfolio. I'm a pretty conservative guy, so I'm a buy-it-pay-it-off kind of guy. I've got 10–12 rental properties in my portfolio. Jason: Let's get into these five characteristics that you feel define a successful company, and you're obviously a successful company. You've helped keep it successful, right? Second generation, so let's get in number one. Marc: Yeah. I don't pretend to be a guru. I can't stand the guys that stand there, beat their chest, and say, “Do it like me, I know what I’m doing.” This is just from our perspective. We worked with a lot of companies and I didn't get this, but I do a lot of PM coaching in business stuff on the side with PM companies helping them get better, basically. We know a lot of PM companies, we've worked a lot of PM companies and there seem to be some standards, some things companies that are successful, however you define success, are going to follow some of these aspects. This is not meant to be an exhaustive list by any means, but it's the way that we gauge ourselves. Jason: This will be cool because I probably come from a very different perspective. You're in the industry, you do this in Denver and I don't have any rental properties. I don't manage. I'm not a property manager. I have largely been this nerdy fly on the wall that's been able to see inside of hundreds of companies. My perspective might be a little bit different, but I'm sure there's some alignment. Let's get into number one. Marc: Number one is successful companies don't take every owner. They don't take every owner that comes along. So you agree with that one? Jason: Totally. If anyone's heard my show, they've heard me talk about the cycle of suck, which is it starts with filtering owners. Like if take in bad owners, you have bad properties. It doesn't matter how amazing they are. If you have bad properties, you have bad tenants. It doesn't matter how much tenant screening you do. If you have bad tenants, you have a bad reputation because you have bad owners and bad tenants. Nobody's happy and this is where I think the entire industry as a whole in aggregate sits right now. It has a bad reputation because they're taking on any owner. Marc: Yeah, I would agree. The concept is this. Any PM company knows that if a tenant, a prospective tenant walks in the door, an applicant comes in and says, “Hey, I want to rent your property,” every property manager is a little bit skeptical. They raise their eyebrow. They say, “Okay, well maybe. I’m going to qualify you.” We know industry-wide that whatever the number is, call it 25%-30%, depending on the market you're in, the 25%-30% of the applicants are not going to make good tenants. Everybody would agree upon that. Well, we really believe that probably that same percentage 25%, 30%, 35% of prospective owner-clients are not going to make good owner-clients. The challenge comes, how do we filter them? Because if it's an applicant to rent a property, we have them fill out a rental application. We go in deep. That's the hardest part of the business is qualifying those folks. So, how do you qualify an owner? That’s where the challenge lies. If you called our office today as a prospective owner-client and you are talking to our new account specialist or one of our PM's, they would have a dock in front of them, a piece of paper, and a lot of this is just basic questionnaires—what's your email address, what’s the property address, tell me about the property—but at the end of that questionnaire, they have four questions. Yes or no questions that they have to check the box on yes or no. They have to discern this information during the conversation with you because it helps us qualify these owners. For example, the first one says, “Is the owner financially stable?” If during this conversation you as my prospective owner say to me, “Hey Marc, if you can’t get this property rented next week, I can’t make my mortgage payment. I've got to get this thing ready quickly.” Well, you're not financially stable, right? That's going to be a no on that box, that's the first question. Jason: “So, are you current on all your house payments?” One of my clients said that was a favorite question they would ask. If they say no, it's instant disqualification. Marc: Absolutely. Then the second question we have to ask ourselves is, is the client emotionally stable? That can be a hard one to discern. I always tell people, “Don't ask them the question verbatim, okay?” It will get you in trouble. Jason: “Are you sane?” Yeah. Marc: Exactly, but we need to be able to discern that information from the conversation. Is this somebody who's going to be stable when things go bad because at some point in time it will. Jason: Right. Sometimes, people will reveal their emotional instability pretty quickly, right? Marc: Yes. I tell my PMs, “Look. Two quick keys. If they cry on the first conversation or if they own more than two cats, they are not emotionally stable. Run away from them.” Jason: Might be a little biased against cat owners. What’s cat owners like? Marc: I know. You just lost half of your audience because of my personal bias. Jason: No, they’re cool. Marc: I am as well. Then the third question we ask is, “Can I control the situation and the client? Are they willing to give me control?” Not in a puppet master, I'm going to be the mean guy, but they have to give me control. They have to be willing to do so. Then question number four is, are they realistic in expectations? Do they think that we should be able to get $2000 a month for property that's only going for $1000? Or do they think that we should call them before we ever spend a dime on maintenance? That's just not realistic. That’s not going to happen. If we can't check the yes box on all four of those, then my PM does not have permission to work with that client. Jason: I love the idea of figuring out if they're willing to relinquish control. That's such a big thing because they're coming to you to solve a problem. I've noticed with clients that they're not willing to be strong enough of a fence for people to push against to elicit trust enough for people to relinquish that control. I think a lot of people will push. They might look like bad owners, they're trying to test the fence, and it's like in dating how girls will crap test the guy. They just want to see if they can handle them or if they're willing to be strong enough. I think a lot of times property managers will try to be nice and maybe don't have enough bite or drive and they’re really looking for somebody they can feel safe with, so they test us. I think clients will test us and then they're willing to relinquish control at times. It’s just something I've noticed during the sales process because I deal with entrepreneurs. They’re driven people and I need the same thing. They need to be willing to relinquish a certain amount of control because I'm asking to do crazy stuff, like fire doors or change your business name. I love that idea, and then are they realistic in their expectations. If somebody says, “Hey, I want to add 500 doors in the next quarter,'' then that's probably not going to be realistic. I want to make sure they're in touch with a reality that I feel I can give them or lead them towards and it's the same with our property management clients. Marc: Yup, and if we set those filters on the front-end, that's just going to make things so much easier on bringing good clients on because our business is hard enough without having difficult owner-clients. I think there’s the second aspect of that is, “Well, gosh. That's great. I wish I would have heard that before I took on Mr. Crazy,” so, what do you do then? I think the other part of that—you alluded to this—is sometimes you do need to let those clients go, and sometimes that's the best thing, because we're talking about what successful companies do. Successful companies realize that, “Hey, if we made a mistake, we brought on a bad client, we need to let that client go, whatever that looks like.” Jason: There's always going to be those mistakes. We cannot always know and perceive every person coming in and know that they are emotionally stable, or that you can control them, or that they will be realistic, but when they start to reveal those colors, we have to be willing to let them go. I've made bad decisions in bringing people in as clients and I have had to let them go. Some of them were just really like verbally abusive to my team. You’d be really amazed at some of the types of people that that can somehow leak through even if you have pretty good qualifications at the beginning. I love what you're getting at here because really anybody that studies sales in any capacity knows that qualifying a prospect is at the outset. It's really mind boggling that people would not qualify their prospects in any regard. Marc: I’m curious. You said you had to let clients go. How have you overcome the internal thought of, “Ooh, but that's money. That's a big chunk.” When do you decide? How do you decide? Is that an internal struggle for you? Jason: Sometimes. There's always a negotiation and it's a balance. It's a balance between the money aspect and the cost with the team. Ultimately, my team I want to keep forever. I want to keep them long-term. If I keep that client on, I’m saying to my team, your feelings don't matter. I don't care about you. That sends a really painful message and I've noticed this in property management companies. People wonder why there's so much turnover with their staff and I think one key reason is because you're allowing your staff, you're forcing your staff to tolerate too much. There are some of these owners that should be let go, and I've said many times to clients, “The hallmark of a seasoned property manager is that they fired some clients.” Some businesses have hundreds of doors and they've never fired a client. I know if they've never fired a client, they have some bad things in their portfolio. There's some pain in there and that's a difficult place to work. They’re not willing to let go of painful situations and there's always going to be painful situations. Marc: Yeah, and I've never talk to a PM who did let a client go who regretted it. Jason: Never. Marc: It's hard, it's scary. We face that. I remember very vividly when we were small and we had 125 doors, maybe. We had a client and had like 12 properties. I remember the guy, could see the guys face. He wasn't a bad guy, but he was just difficult and it had to be his way. He would contact us all the time. He just drove us crazy. We finally decided we needed to let the guy go. Well that was like 10% of our portfolio. That was hard. We thought about it, we don’t know what to do, and even after we did it we thought, “Oh, is that the right decision or not?” But we quickly realized it's like a load that’s been lifted. When you get rid of those people that sucked that time and energy and life out of you, it is a positive thing. Jason: The operational costs, the emotional cost when all of that falls by the wayside. I've never had a client fire something. I had one person fire half their portfolios like one big property. I had one person do that and they were terrified, but they did it. Two things happen almost every time. One, they replace the income really quickly. It always, it creates some vacuum in the universe, I don't know what you want to call it, but they always seem to replace the income really quickly with better doors. That always seems to happen. They just need to trust that's going to happen. The other thing is, is they always say to me, “I can't believe I didn’t do it sooner,” like they wished they had done it sooner. They were so afraid of doing it and then once they do it, they realize it wasn't so bad and they wish they were like, “Why didn't I do this sooner?” Marc: If one of your clients is talking to you and you're saying, “Hey, you need to fire this owner,” how do you recommend they do that like? What should they say? Should they say, “You’re fired”? Jason: You’re interviewing me now. Marc: Yeah. Jason: There's a few ways you can let them go. There are some creative ways. One of the best is just raise the fees. If [...] make it worth, just make it more expensive. Say, “Hey this property is difficult. You're a bit more challenging person to deal with, to be honest. We are willing to keep doing it, but it's going to cost X.” So, you just raise the rate, and if they keep being annoying and you feel like it's still not worth it, you keep raising the rate until they self-select themselves out. That's one easy way. Another way is to just refer them to somebody else, and if you're going to refer you might as well get a nice referral fee out of it. Go to one of your buddies and one man's junk is another man's treasure. I mean they might know how to deal with this type of person. They might be a better personality fit for this type of person than you. Don't just instantly assume that because you can't tolerate them or their difficult for you, that everybody else will. Give them to somebody else and let somebody else have a shot. Marc: I like it. We will rarely fire an owner, but we will as you just suggested bump fees up and up until they decide to fire us. I’d much rather have them fire us and leave on their terms. Jason: Right, they’ll self-select out. Are we complete on number one? Marc: I think so. Number two is successful companies know their numbers. I see this so often with PM companies. We get really good at the logistical side of we know how to lease, we know how to talk to owners, know how to collect rents, but when it comes to the numbers, the financials, we just don't know what we’re doing often times. I really am a big believer in that concept that if you don't know your numbers, you don't know your business. You don't know how well your business is doing. One question I’ll often ask of coaching clients that I work with on that side of things is also, “Okay. Now, if you, Jason own a PM company, at what point in time do you close the books for your company? Let’s say the month of June ends, right? We’re here almost until the end of June. When June closes for you, how quickly will you have your June books closed so that you know how much money your company made in the month of June?” The answers always surprise me. They're all over the board. “Well, I'm currently 90 days behind. I’m trying to catch up,” or, “I'm not much further behind in that,” or, “I might get it towards the end of the following month.” Jason: Yeah, how can they make business decisions if they’re 90 days in the rear-view mirror? Imagine trying to drive a car like that. Marc: Like I said, I've been doing this for many, many years. While we were small. like anybody else, I was everything. I was the janitor, I was the accountant, and I was everything. My favorite day of the month was always the first. Not because we collect rents, but because on the first day of the month, I go online and print out our company bank statements for the last month. I get our paper checkbook out and I’d reconcile. I’d get our ending balance and I enter it all into QuickBooks. I can look at that piece of paper and say, “Hey, how much money did we make last month?” I love that. I would wake up early to do that. I'm weird, I know, but that's how you know how well you're doing, I wouldn’t wait until the second, the third, the fourth, the twentieth, that's crazy. You can do it on the first. So, I'm a big believer in as soon as possible, which in this day and age it can be pretty much immediate. You get your books balanced, you run some numbers, you see how your company is doing it, and you’ve tracked some metrics, some internal metrics for your company to know how you're doing. Jason: I think the challenge is when property managers are holding on to something that's not in their particular wheelhouse or area of genius, but if this isn't your thing, if you're not like Marc and you don't love doing this and this isn’t like what makes you thrilled and excited is to get in your bank statements and numbers, have somebody else get everything ready for you. I've got a profit-first coach and accountant. She meets with me and goes over everything with me. I get not only my perspective, but she says, “This is what it looks like to me, Jason,” so yeah, I think it's usually helpful to do a review every month and look at your numbers. Marc: Yup, and like you just said, most folks aren’t as weird as I am as it comes to that stuff, and that's fine. But you need to find someone weird like me. You need to find someone who can go get excited about running your numbers, make sure they do it, and then you review those and you track a couple key metrics. For example, some of the metrics that we always track, are door counts proportional to owner count? Because that’s a sign of a healthy business. So for example, if your company has 100 doors, if you’ve got 100 owners for those 100 doors, that is the sign of a very healthy business because it means that you don't have any one owner with too much control versus the guy the guy called me a couple of weeks ago and he wanted to know if I was interested in buying his business. I go, “Tell me a little bit about it.” I think he had like 75 doors, “I’ve got 75 doors, I’m here in Denver and interested in selling.” One of the first questions I always ask is how many owner-clients do you have? He had 75 doors and 4. I was like, “You know what? I don’t need to know anything else. I'm not interested.” Why? Because if we took those doors on, that's four owners. That’s a lot of control. Jason: If it’s two of them, then what are you getting? Marc: It's something that you can't control, but you need to track it, that's one of the things you want to track on a regular basis. Another metric we really like to track is the percentage of our overall income that we spend on employees. Because in our industry, that again can just be all over the map on companies. Do you have a number on that that you recommend to your folks on what that number should be? Jason: It varies so wildly especially by market, but I know an owner that has 65% profit margin in his business. Marc: Wow. Jason: I know it's ridiculous. Marc: It’s a good thing I’m sitting down. Jason: I know. He has a couple of hundred doors. It varies so wildly and it depends largely on the type of owners they're taking on, the type of property, because—I’m talking about this in the cycle of suck idea very often—if you take one bad owner or one bad door property, can have 10 times, maybe even 100 times the operational cost as a good door. So, that can vary so wildly. I've had a company come to me that had 500–600 units under management and wasn't making a dime. I said, “How is this possible?” They’re like, “Well, we're doing $3 million a month in real estate,” so there was a brokerage with a cancerous tumor on the side called property management. He had twice as much staff as he needed, no technology in place. Fast forward, he fired half his team, he fired about 200 doors, maybe 300 doors, and it's now a very profitable company. So, it's not all about doors and staffing is always going to be the highest cost. If you can replace even a fraction of that or create some leverage for your team using technology, outsourcing, whatever, those are some big wins financially. A lot of times everyone's looking at, I got to get more revenue in and they're not looking at their expenses. That's why I'm a big fan of the profit-first system which says, “You take out a portion for profit and then what's left over is your expenses.” Most people are like expenses. You’re just revenue minus expenses and then whatever's left over, there's nothing left over typically in that situation. Marc: Absolutely. We have that profit is almost like an expense item that we know we’re going to take out every month and put into a savings account. We've been doing that for a long, long time from that aspect. But yes, I agree 100% with that aspect of what you're saying there. The number that we coach folks around is you don't want to go over 50% of your total revenue to staffing costs regardless of your size. The bigger you get, the more that number's going to probably creep towards that, just because you get more overhead, you get more managers, and you have more red tape, so that's a natural part of that. But if you go over 50%, that's a red alert. Something's wrong from that standpoint, so that an important to track for every company. Jason: Yeah, as a company scale, they're able to create a bit more leverage, but yeah, I could see how when you're really small and you're doing everything, your employee costs are a bit less per door because assuming your free labor or maybe if you work for your dad. Or sometimes it’s a spouse. They’ll have their spouse as their business partner, and you'll see them get to maybe 70-80 units, they’re tapped out, and they can't afford to hire their first person. Nobody's getting paid. That makes sense. All right, I like it. Anything else on number two, knowing the numbers? Marc: The other things I would just add that's worth tracking that I often find companies don't track this well enough is how many doors they’re adding and how many doors they’re losing. It’s always a surprise to me is when you ask them that, they'll say, “Well, I can dig it up, but I don't know.” A lot of the software don't track that. If we’re old school, we’ve got the spreadsheet. Every time we lose a door, we go to our spreadsheet for the year, we put it in, and it's going to keep that auto tracking. Every time we sign a new one up, put those on the spreadsheet so we can pull that up and instantly see, “Okay. As of right now, we've lost X number of doors per year and we've added X number of doors.” So, track that. Don't make that something that you've got to go dig in your software and try to pull a report. That needs to be one of those metrics that you're tracking at least on a monthly basis. Jason: Yeah. It's a pretty difficult situation and it’s a common one where you’ll see somebody adding a door and losing a door just as often. They wonder why they're not getting growth. Sometimes, the problem aren’t getting enough [...], it’s obtaining doors. They could be the type of target audience that they're going after, it could be that they are lacking some awareness around how to retain these clients or whatever it might be, but yeah, that's an important thing I think to pay attention to. Marc: Yeah, and to track the percentage of doors lost. That's all over the map as well. If you can keep your losses on an annual basis in the single digits from a percentage standpoint, that's pretty good. If you can keep it 10% or below on doors that are leaving you every year, you're in the pretty rare group of PMs. Jason: I created something for property managers called our cold leads calculator. One of the things I noticed with a lot of companies—this is more relevant to what I do—a lot of property managers are not paying attention to the amount of money that they're spending on cold lead marketing—pay per click, SCO, APM leads—all these different places at social media marketing, content marketing, that they're paying to generate business. A bulk of where most people get their deals and leads from I find in the industry is often word-of-mouth, so they just group everything together. All their warm leads from word-of-mouth, referrals, other cold lead marketing, and they're not paying attention. When you look at the numbers alone of the cold lead marketing, which everyone can check it out by going to doorgrow.com/coldleads, they can take this little questionnaire and go through it, but it'll help you calculate your cost for cold lead marketing. It also calculates and factors in the time. Time is worth money and it calculates and ask what that time is worth, like what's your hourly wage or whoever is following up on these, how much time does it take to follow up on these, to create a real aggregate or at least close aggregate cost of what one cold lead is costing you. I’ve seen numbers. I just had one come through the other day. One cold lead was costing them $5000. I've seen $11,000, I've seen a $1700 per lead or per acquisition per deal and what I love to ask them when I get them on the phone, I say, “Hey, I saw you fill out this cold lead thing. How long does it take you to recoup $5000 on a contract?” and they’re like, “Well, that's probably three years of free management or two years whatever.” Then their perspective starts to shift and we have to uncouple that. The transparency in numbers helps you make decisions as a business owner. Marc: Yup, and then review them regularly. Don't just leave it your accounts. If you're a successful PM company, you're looking at those numbers because those numbers make a difference. Jason: All right. We’re on to number three. Marc: Number three is a good lead-in as you were just talking about there. Number three will be successful companies focus on profit, not door count. You've already talked about this. This comes up so often in our industry, what's the first question any PM ask another PM? How many doors do you have? What’s your door count? How many doors are you managing? That's the measuring stick and it’s the wrong measuring stick because I know companies that are smaller, they're very profitable, and I know companies that are very large that are not profitable at all. Door count is irrelevant. The profit is what matters. What that means is practically speaking, if you've got 50 doors, I would say, “Before you say I another 50—that's fine—but you know what? Let's maximize the profit of the existing group you have.” That doesn't mean just go out and nickel-and-dime everybody, but it means what other services can you provide? What other things can you put in place to make sure that you're maximizing that income and that’ll have a dual impact in that you're going to increase your income on that 50? Then when you pick up your next 50, now you've already got some structures in place to ensure that they are profitable as well. You've got to focus on the profits, on the revenue streams to be successful. Jason: Absolutely, I don't think there's ever been a property management company that I’ve seen that is not leaving some money on the table. There's always additional services that you can offer, even if it's something little like filter easier petscreening.com. There's always some additional value that you can offer and there's always a way that you can monetize that. People are willing to pay for additional value. Marc: On the flip side of that as well, I think we need to pay attention to those expenses because what the industry right now is more difficult than it has been a long time and folks that have not been in the industry for too long, they’ll recognize this because this is normal to them, but it's a tough industry. This is a tough market to be running a property management company. When things get tough, you've got to be tight on expenses, and it’s too easy not to get tough on expenses. That's one thing we encourage folks, is to go through that profit of loss, line by line, and if there are expense items on there that are not directly relational to income coming in, you have to figure out how to cut them. You have to get rid of those wasteful expenses. That is such a good exercise to sit down and start going through that stuff and say, “Well, gosh, I’ve just been paying for the subscription service every month and I don't even know what it does. I signed up for it two years ago. All right, let's get that cancelled.” Jason: Yeah, and you’re like, “Why am I still on this?” Marc: Exactly. This is beneficial as getting on a new door, is cutting those expenses. Jason: This is why I love having a profit-first coach, because this really is built into the system. Every month is like, “Hey, what about these services you said you're going to cancel and you said you don't need this anymore?” Yes, so I think it's helpful. If you’re not like accounting-minded, I highly recommend you go back and watch my episode with Mike Michalowicz, who is the author of Profit First and check out that episode. I think it was a fantastic episode. Really cool guy, came and spoke at our conference. It covers that system like cutting down expenses, putting profit first, making sure that expenses are fitting within your existing budget and you're still getting a profit. Yeah, makes sense. Marc: What I had to do, I realized that the biggest expense item, the biggest overhead we had was my ego. The thing is that, that I wanted for me, the big desk, the big office, the nice car, and that's something everyone needs to start there because if you drive, especially in the real estate sale side, you go to any real estate sales event and what is the parking lot filled with? A lot of very expensed leased vehicles. I'm not against nice vehicles, but that’s just a suck on the income side of things. Jason: I think there's always this ratio between the amount of money that you’re going to take out of the business, and the amount of money that you're going to leave in to fund towards the growth. If we take out too much too quickly, the business growth is stagnated. I've seen some really aggressive companies put almost all of their money. I’ve seen owners try not to even take a paycheck. They’re really minimizing their take out of the business so that they could fund the growth, because they're delaying gratification for the future. They’re funding and creating a business that is growing and they’re putting their funds and their money towards that.  Sometimes, you have to double down as a business owner and to be willing to take a short-term hit because you want a long-term growth goal. And we can put too much towards growth to where it feels shaky, it feels unsafe. We're not holding anything back. There's no padding there. It really is this balance of how much I’m going to put towards growth be aggressive, how safe am I going to play it, and how stable and slow am I going to be at doing this. There's a balance there. Marc: It is a balance, it’s an absolute balance because you need to leave some in, and you need to be pulling some out every month and putting it into that savings account so that you have opportunities. We’ve purchased several companies over the years and every one of those deals worked because we were able to in essence say, “We can write a check. We’ll write a check today. We’ll get this deal done.” Why? Because we have money put away. That savings account isn't just comforting, it's an opportunity fund for things when they come up in the future. Jason: I like it. All right, is that three? Marc: That's three. Jason: All right, number four. Marc: Number four is successful companies have systems and follow them. They have systems in place and they follow. In a word, system means different things to different people. Some people think, “Well, that's just so I need a good software. What’s the system?” I really believe that probably 75%-80% of what we do on a day-to-day basis in our industry can be systematized, meaning, simply documenting your process, documenting your routine, because it plays out in so many ways. We learned this early on when we were growing and first there were two of us. My dad and I, we both did it all and we hired a third person, and then we all three did it all. Then we hired a fourth person, and by the time we hired that fourth person, we realized that, we can't all do it all. This isn't scalable, we can't all do everything. It works great at two people, it works great at three people, but when we had that number person and Mr. Tenant calls and says, “Hey, I called in with a maintenance request last week and I haven’t heard from anybody.” And I say, “Well do you know who you talked to?” “No, I don't remember.” “Well hold on, let me see if I can figure it out.” “Hey dad, did they talk to you?” “Hey, Bill did they talk to you?” “Sue did they talk to you?” “No.” “Well they talked to one of us, right?” That’s very ineffective. You've got to start specializing in your processes. We realized at that point in time that if we're going to hire someone to be our leasing person, for example, we better have a documented process for them to follow. I mean specific detailed documented. Here's what time you get to the property before showing. You open the door, you turn on the lights. Here's where you stand when they come in. Here's how you greet them, here’s what you say, here’s what you don't say, here's how you process an application. If we do that into our entire business and we break the business down into the smallest components, it simplifies things like nothing else because we’re in a complex business. If you think of a continuum in your mind, a long line going on both directions. On one side of the continuum, you have the words consistency and simplicity. On the other side, the far extreme opposite, you've got the words variation and complexity. You have to ask yourself, where am I on that continuum? We're all different places, but we hopefully will always be moving forward towards consistency and simplicity. I don't think there's a better way of doing that than through documenting your process, your system and then following it, training on it, improving it, upgrading it. It's got to be written, it's got to be documented, and it is a process. Jason: That needs to be used. People document it, they’ll give it to the team member, the team member will look at it at the first few times they do it, and then they're done. I have Process Street on as a guest once. We used Process Street internally, but it forces them to actually use the process on going. It's a checklist that has to be verified and completed. Marc: Yes, checklists are huge. We couldn’t exist without the checklist. Its old school, but it works. We still have paper checklists on some things in our office here that people say, “That wouldn’t work.” I guess just too old school. I say, “Well , we’re pretty successful. It worked for a thousand doors; I can tell you that. Will it work beyond that? I don't know, but it works to get you to a thousand.” Jason: There you go. I've noticed in businesses, I think there’s, at a minimum, probably seven systems that every business eventually has to have in a business. One, they have to have an internal communication system. For me and my team, it’s virtual, so we're using things like Basecamp, Voxer, stuff like that. But there needs to be an internal communication system that isn't just, “Hey Steve, did you do this?” So, internal communication. There needs to be process documentation system. That could just be Google Sheets, Docs, and whatever, or it could be something more complicated or cooler like Process Street or whatever, but there needs to be a process documentation system. There needs to be a billing system, of course. Property managers use maybe AppFolio or Rentec Direct, Buildium, but there needs to be some billing, accounting system. Then there needs to be a support system. A lot of property managers are starting to gravitate towards setting up Help Scout, Intercom, Drift, or one of these, but internally we use Intercom. There needs to be a support system in the business so that you can track tickets and track things. Sometimes, you'll do that through your property management software a bit. I find one system most property management businesses are lacking or missing is a planning system. You're hearing people move towards traction in some of this which I think has some fundamental flaws to be blunt, but it's a great system. It’s better than no system and there's a lot of systems out there for planning, but there needs to be a planning system in the business. Another system that's necessary is a sales CRM. This is different than your existing customer database. This is for prospects. There needs to be a sales CRM in place. A lot of property managers use LeadSimple, for example. If there were one other system you can throw in there probably be a phone system. We need some way to manage this big influx of calls or outbound calls with team members being able to be reached. These are some of the systems that I've paid attention to, that businesses need. Most businesses will have maybe two or three. Marc: Yup, and we preach what we practice as well as preach to make on the systems for individual team members to make them position-specific. We have 20-some odd people our office and every role has a position-specific system manual, so our director of accounting has a director of accounting system manual. I'm the president of the organization. I have a president system manual. Why? Because I need to be replaceable. That's one of the benefits of it. That idea that now we become less dependent upon individuals and no individual can hold us hostage to be like, “They’ve got everything in their head. What are we going to do they leave? We can't lose them.” It's a terrible place to be. We don’t have to worry about that. You're going to lose everybody at some point in time. You’ll either lose them for a good reason or a bad reason, but they need to be replaceable. Now if you have a document, if you have documented their process, then they become replaceable. I'm replaceable. If I get hit by the truck today, it’s alright. Hopefully, the company will take a little hit, hopefully they’ll need me a little bit, but we got a system manual, somebody can step in that role, and already says, “Hey, this is what Marc does.” Just do it and you'll be successful. Jason: I like it. All right, so are we on to five? Marc: Number five, the last one, successful companies recruit and develop talent. We just talked about systems and the concept that systems can make your people replaceable to some extent and they should. However, at the end of the day, the team with the best players usually wins. If you can go out there and if you can figure out how to recruit the best talent and then retain them, that is going to do more for your company than almost anything else out there. If I'm going to brag about something about our company, I’ll brag about that. We get the best people around. We've gotten good at that. It makes it so much easier to do business. I don't work harder than my competitors, I'm not smarter than my competitors, I'm not technologically savvy more than my competitors, but what we do better than a lot of our competitors is we get really good people  Now that’s hard, and it’s hard to get really good people and that's why you got to recruit. It doesn't mean you put an ad on Craig's list and read a bunch of resumes of people that can't get jobs. I mean you go out and you find people that are really good at what they do and you got to get them, you have to recruit them. That's hard because successful people aren’t looking for jobs. They are already successful. If you want to be successful, you got to go out there. I’ll tell a story and I'll give that the short version. We had to hire a leasing person not too long ago. Wwe were hiring, meaning we were just reviewing resumes and I thought this is ridiculous. We can't find anybody good. I better do what I tell myself what I should be doing. I got my car one day and I drove around to a lot of the multi-family class A properties in Denver, and I walked in as a prospect. “Hey, I’m Marc, I’m here. I just want to see what you have available. I’m looking for a buddy of mine to rent a property.” And I was usually met with the, “Okay, well here's a piece of paper. Tell your buddy to give us a call.” I say, “Okay” and left. About the fourth place I came to, I came in and met a gal there behind the front and I said, “Hi, I’m Marc. I’m just looking for a place for a buddy of mine.” She said, “Well, me about your buddy. He’s looking for one bedroom. He’s tall dark and handsome, got a cat, probably crazy,” and she's like, “You know what? I know the perfect unit for your buddy. Do you have a couple minutes? I'd love to just have you tour this property.” “Yeah, sure. Okay.” She tours me through and she's pointing out the feature benefits to offer. She was sharp. Her name is Lindsay. I said, “Lindsay, you are really good at your job. She goes, “I love leasing. I just love it. I love helping people. I love real estate. I love what I do.” I said, “That's great. Coincidently, I happen to run a property management company and we're actually looking to hire a director of leasing for residential real estate. Have you thought about doing residential?” because she’s a multifamily. She was like, “Oh no. I could never leave. I'm not a job hopper. I'm really stable. Stability is a big deal for me once I get somewhere I like to stay.” Now I'm drooling. I got to have her. I said, “Well is there anything you don't like about your job Lindsay? Well we work weekends.” I said, “Oh. That’s too bad. We don’t work weekends.” I said, “Tell you what. Why don't you come into my office sometime? Here’s my card. I'd love to just sit down and have a conversation with you. Who knows? Maybe something comes out of it, maybe something don’t, but I’d love to just connect and see if there's something there for the future.” Well long story short, we got her. We got Lindsay. And we had to go after her, we had to get her because she didn't want to leave. She's been a rock star. She's been amazing. The things that she's helped our company to do, but we would not have found her if we were just hiring. We had to go recruit her, we had to go get her. That's what you have to do in every position in your company. You have to go find stuff. I'm not saying go steal people away from your competitors, but you have to find those people out there that are successful and get them. Once you get them, you have to retain them. You have to train them well, you got to pay them well, which is one of the reasons you need to have good profit because good people aren’t cheap, but that's what's going to lead to a long-term success, and unless you take a step back out of the day-to-day stuff at the end of the day. Jason: Yeah. I think it's important to point out what you're saying is not that people are easily replaceable, that you can pop somebody else in. You're not saying that at all, and I think every business owner knows that if you have a seasoned team member that you've invested in, that you've trained, that you've developed, there's nothing as good as that, like having somebody that's been with you for years. I have team members that has been on my team for maybe six years and he's a rock star. I have a competitive advantage over most companies in that our teams are virtual, so I can source the best talent from anywhere pretty much in the world. But yeah, this can be challenging for property managers that are looking for somebody locally, they're looking for somebody nearby, they’re looking for a particular set of skills may be. But ultimately, if you find somebody good, you want to make sure you retain them and that you keep them happy. You can compare it to a wine, you can compare it to anything, but over time they just get better. If they’re good they get better, if they're not good, they get worse. Marc: That's the other side of the coin. That's where just like we talked about earlier with owners. This is what we started this whole conversation with you get a bad owner, what do you do? You need to let them go. Well if you made a hiring mistake, you need to fix that and correct that as well and let that person go, because we're going to make hirings. We are very good at this, but we make a lot of hiring mistakes. We just do, it drives me crazy. But when we do that, we correct it quickly. We're going to move that person on very quickly when we make that mistake. Why? Because the longer they're sitting there, the longer the right person isn't there. You've got to make that correction when you made a hiring mistake. Jason: I think it's amazing when you bring in a new team member, it changes the entire team. It either changes the entire team for the better or for the worse, especially if that team member that you just brought on is taking off of your plate everything. It changes your role as CEO. It changes your role as an entrepreneur, and it affects everything from you. It's pretty significant and it's important to make sure that they’re the right fit. We we're all going to make hiring mistakes. You have to kiss a few frogs and you have to suck a little bit at hiring in order to find the good people. Marc: It's an art, and a skill set to hire someone in no way translates over to property management. It's not like, “I'm a good property manager. I’ll obviously be good at hiring.” No, there's no correlation there. It's completely different. The other unfortunate thing is, the smaller your company is, the more important it is to make that first good hire. Now we've got 20 people. If we make a bad hire, we got one in 20 then who's bad. They can fly under the radar a little bit, they're not going to stick to the company. If we've got two people and then we make a bad hire for number three, so we never got 33% of our workforce that's a low performer. The smaller you are, the more important it is that you take the time to get the right person in. A lot of it is just time. You've got to slow down the hiring process. These ideas of we had a phone conversation and we interviewed him, it's not enough? Are you kidding me? No, you want to do multiple interviews. Anybody can come across as a positive person on that first interview. You want to have multiple interviews with multiple people. You have to dig, dig, dig on that before you make that job offer. Jason: I think where I've made a lot of mistakes personally in the hiring process is I love to delegate and its delegating too quickly. Some people will micromanage, they’ll control too much, and I think some people will do the opposite. They'll bring somebody on and they won't give them all the training, all the tools, all the support they need to really be the rock star they could have been. I've made both of those mistakes to be transparent. I think onboarding is a really important process to make sure you’re meeting with your new hires on a regular basis daily initially, then backing it up to weekly and so on, so that every day like where are you stuck? What do you need? What are you confused about? Often, they're not going to just volunteer all that information to you. But when you're meeting with them daily, they're going to feel supported, they're going to feel like they're invested in the team. I think onboarding is a really big deal. That's where I made mistakes. Marc: We still do one-on-one meetings every single week with every one of our team members. It doesn't matter how long they've been. I'm a huge believer in that, I guess if you wanted number six, there is number six, right? Have one-on-ones every single week, sitting down with them, even if it’s for 5 or 10 minutes, touch base, see what issues are going. Those have been critical for our people in their success. Jason: We have a bonus, number six. Marc: You got a bonus, number six, because you’re so good. What did I leave out? I’m curious. You talk to a lot of PM companies. What do you think are characteristics of success may be that we didn’t hit on? Jason: I wasn’t even thinking this, I was so into yours. I think all these things are really fantastic. I think if I were to add a seventh here that I think is absolutely critical, so imagine you have an orchard, you’re at the top, and this is like a reservoir of hopefully money and or water or whatever you want to call it. There's outflow, you're paying your team, you're spending money, things like this, and investing your team. I think where most companies are flawed is there's no inflow at the top of the orchard. There's nothing above the entrepreneur feeding into them. I think this is why it's critical. I probably spent at least six figures annually just on coaches and mentors. I have three coaches right now affecting different areas of my business. I think it's that inflow that I'm able to get that allows me to consistently have value to offer to the marketplace and to benefit my clients. It comes out in ways that I don't even expect, like a client will ask me a question or be stuck on something mindset-wise or be challenged with something, and I'm like, “I had that issue and I worked that through with my coach,” or, “I have done that in that training that I had done,” or whatever it might be. I think as entrepreneurs, we need to invest in ourselves if we're expecting other people to invest in us. When you go to prospects or clients and you say, “Hey, invest in me, spend money with my company,” and you aren't willing to invest in yourself or in your company in a similar fashion, I think there's a little lack of integrity. Energetically, something's off. If there were a seventh, I would say that's a big one is make sure that you're investing consistently in your own development, not just your team so that you have something to give. I think that's the inflow. You don't want to be a dead sea, there needs to be in flow and there needs to be outflow and that's where there's life. That's where it’s a healthy business. Marc: For the person that would say, “Hey, that sounds great, but I'm working 70 hours a week. I don't have time to invest in me. I'm just give, give, give.” What would you say to them? Jason: I would say they’re ineffective, they’re inefficient because if we're doing, doing, doing we moved out of the mode of being affected. That means most of our time is tactical instead of strategic. Any business that lacks, the business owner lacks strategic time, the business isn’t growing. There's a direct relationship between the amount of strategic time, planning, looking towards the future, coming up with ideas, or getting trained or learning new things, versus their growth. If all their time is tactical, they're dealing with maintenance, fires, leases, managing their team, emails, phone calls, if all their time is tactical, their business can’t grow. It will stay basically where it is. I think what I do with clients is I start them with a time study and we create time. Everybody is spending time doing stuff that's unnecessary, or low dollar an hour work, or silly, and it's pretty simple to start getting clarity on that first and then that helps them see what they need next. My entire foundation, my company really has been built on time studies. That's where I think fundamentally there's a huge difference between how I would coach operationally a business to run versus something like traction or a rocket fuel or these other systems where they’re saying, “Here's the magic org chart and here's the roles that you have to have.” Ultimately, a business should be built around the entrepreneur and what they actually need. The only way to really see that is to know where your time is going. Marc: Good stuff. Jason: That's my two cents. Marc: I like it. Jason: All right, so that's number eight maybe. I don't know. Marc: It’s number eight. Jason: We’d better stop before we add anymore. Marc: We’d better. I know. You’re making me think of too many things. Jason: Marc, it was really awesome hanging out here with you. This is really fun. You're welcome back anytime. Before we go, how can people get in touch with you if they're curious about some stuff that you offer for property managers or they want to learn more about your business or whatever? Marc: The best way to reach me is through our website which is propertymanagementsystem.org and we got a handful things on there, a lot of video resource things. We've got our system manuals, we talked a little bit about that, our actual system manuals, we offer those. You can download samples of those and we got packages on those. We do ancillary business training, some coaching stuff from that aspect. One thing I'm pretty excited about, we're just putting in place, we actually just put in place and I'm happy to share with any of your folks if they're interested, they can drop me an email. We put a business health checkup form where you answer some questions and it spits out a number to let you do that business health checkup. If anybody is interested in that, drop me an email, go on the website, reach out to me from there, will be happy to send it to them. Jason: Cool. All right, Marc, thanks so much for coming on the DoorGrow Show and excited to see what you do in the future. Marc: Jason, thank you, it was fun. Jason: All right ,so if you are property management entrepreneur and you are struggling, you are feeling challenged in growth, be sure to connect with us over Door Grow. I would be honored to help you out. As I said during this call, I'm a firm believer in getting coached, getting coaches, and even if it's not me, somebody like Marc, there's lots of other [...] there that can coach you. Get somebody that can give you some value, help you grow your business, help you achieve your goals, and figure things out. Until next time, everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  

Do you want to build wealth through real estate investing and property management? Then, put in the work, trust the process, be open-minded, and get results that change your life. Today, I am talking to Robin Reed, CEO of Concept 360 Property Management and a licensed California real estate broker. She helps clients reposition assets to maximize their value by decreasing expenses and increasing income.  You’ll Learn... [04:29] Challenging Coworkers: Let them go, and try not to grow the company.  [05:07] Learn to appreciate employees who handle day-to-day tasks and tenants.  [05:45] Feast or Famine: Flip from brokerage income to property management.  [07:27] Completely Commit to Changes: Follow DoorGrow, and do whatever it takes.  [12:00] Then vs. Now: No Jerks Allowed policy to make everyone happy.  [17:05] Desperation and Disrespect: You get it, or you don’t.  [17:25] Value of Property Management: If working for peanuts...get what you pay for. [18:20] Walk Away: Not everything, everyone is a perfect market/product fit.  [22:00] Feeding Funnel: What do you do? What’s property management?  [25:50] Retention: What works? Sells? Results and relationships with real estate agents.  [26:05] Growing from 65 to 200 doors; adding 2-5 doors/properties each month.  [30:15] Second Sandtrap: New challenges ahead for processes, teams, trust, and more.  Tweetables I like working on the business, and not in the business. Feast or Famine: Rollercoaster of brokerage income. Be willing to change, take action, and make a difference. What sells, what people want to buy are results. Resources Concept 360 Property Management National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) LeadSimple GatherKudos DoorGrow Case Studies and Website Secrets DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today's guest is Robin Reed of Concept 360 Property Management. Robin, welcome to the show. Robin: Thank you, Jason. Jason: It's really good to see you. Robin: You too. Jason: Robin has been a client. For long have you been a client? Robin: Coming up to two years. I think we’re right around two years. Jason: Maybe I should read a little bit of your bio because you’re really cool. It says, Robin Reed is a licensed California real estate broker and CEO of Concept 360 Property Management with a background in commercial real estate, finance, investment, and development. She's experienced in all real estate asset classes having secured over million in both debt and equity for her clients. She opened Concept 360 Property Management to share her true passion and combined experience as a broker and investor with her clients by helping them reposition their assets. They maximize their value by decreasing expenses and increasing income. A passionate real estate investor herself. She enjoys helping her clients build wealth through real estate investing. Robin is actively involved in several real estate trade organizations including NARPM, the National Association of Residential Property Managers, and is always aware of the pulls of the current real estate market. An Orange County native, she holds a BA degree in English and Comparative Literature from Chapman University. Robin, I actually saw you in person in Long Beach when I spoke at the NARPM chapter. It was awesome because you and your husband came up to me and gave me a big hug. I remember after that event you said some kind words to me. After that event, I was kind of high of the event, but afterwards in the parking lot, I started crying. Because as a coach and as a mentor to a lot of property management companies, I don't get to see clients in person very often because a lot are digital or remote. But occasionally, at a conference or something and somebody comes up to me and they say something in gratitude, that means a lot to me. Robin: Right. Jason: That was one of the moments I cherish. It was really nice being able to help you guys out. Why don't we start back at the beginning? Maybe a couple of years ago when you came to myself and to DoorGrow. What challenges were you dealing with then? What has been happening? Robin: We had let an employee go. The company was something that at the beginning when it first started in 2004, it was pretty big and had a lot of multi-family and things like that. Then the recession hit, a lot of people sold their buildings, some lost them, things like that. We weren't really focused on the property management company. It was just sort of this thing over in the other office that was self-sustaining and it was really something we weren't paying attention to and we were really focused on brokerage. We did a lot of brokerages, sold a lot of REOs for banks and we were really involved in that. I guess it was three years ago, that was right, it was about three years ago and we let an employee go and we looked and realized we were down from probably at the hay day close to 1800 doors, we are down to 65 doors. I said, "I don't even think we should keep this open. What's the point? It's a liability. I'm not into it. Let's just close it." So, we didn't, we kept it as a self-sustaining thing, but we didn't try to grow it. Then my remaining employee went to a maternity leave and I was doing her job for a couple of months which I learned that I hated doing her job. I'm glad I have employees. I like working on the business and not in the business. Luckily, we were at the point where we were able to have employees and I don't really have to deal with day to day of tenants and all that. I did her job for a couple of months and during that period I thought to myself, "This is a good business. This is a good business to be in. This is viable." I was so used to the rollercoaster of brokerage income, it's feast or famine. Jason: Yeah. Robin: And the property management company had always been in the background if between commissions or something like that. I thought, "why don't I flip it? Why don't I flip the script and focus on the property management company and then put the brokerage on the side?" My husband saw you speak somewhere on the internet, came across you and your videos and said, "You got to check this out." Historically, there's been a lot of "check this out", "we got to try this system" so I'm skeptic with systems and coaches, I always have been. I saw one video of yours and I said, "Yes, I'm in." Jason: That’s it. You have been super skeptic and one video was all you needed. Robin: One video and I said, "I'm in. Let's check him out." Jason: What did I do in that video? Robin: I don't know. I wish I knew which one it was. Jason: It's good. I got to do more of that video. Robin: That one, yeah. Jason: Yeah. Robin: We joined up with you and we were willing because we wanted the property management to grow. It’s like, I have this company already and we already have clients, it's something that I can grow from. I was committed and I said, "Whatever needs to happen." We went through all of the training. If I needed to change the name, we ended up changing the logo for you guys. I would have changed the name. I would have done anything. I said, "I'm completely committed to this system. I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Let's go." We did the website. I think before we even did the website or maybe in conjunction, I don't know how it works, but we did GatherKudos and that was huge. Jason: Yeah, [...] on the reviews. Robin: Yes, that was huge. That's been a huge help for us still. We have people that say, "Oh my god. I just saw your reviews." We started asking tenants and owners to review us. Sometimes you have to ask several times for people to review you. Dana, who works for me in the office, she's always trying. She's very good at getting people to review us. She's like a dog on a bone that she said, "You said you we're going to review us. Review us. Review us." So that's good. Jason: Yeah, good. You started going through a process. Robin: Yeah. Jason: The one thing I really loved about you guys as clients is I made mistakes in the past in attracting clients that are really opinionated because I was being very opinionated to the marketplace. Robin: Okay. Jason: But somehow you guys came through and were amazing clients. You guys were the type of clients that I really wanted because you were open to doing things differently. You were open to trying stuff. That's the type of person that I am. I'm very much like an open-minded person and so I'm getting better at putting out more of an open-minded message to attract those types of clients because we attract really well what we put out there. You guys came to me and you were willing to put in the work and you guys trusted the process. Those are the clients that get the biggest results and that's always really exciting to see a client get results, doing what you say that you asked them to do, I feel like when my clients come on, they are putting a lot of faith in us. Robin: Right. Jason: Whether you are a business owner or coaching client of mine and if they put that faith in you, that's a secret thing, I think, in business. I think that's why when your husband came to me—I don't even remember what he said off the top of my head—but he said something like, "You changed my life," or something like that. Robin: I think it was something like that because it's true. Jason: Yeah. I think as entrepreneurs—or at least the type of entrepreneurs I really like to work with—that's really the core of who we are. We want to make a difference. Some entrepreneurs, maybe you can call them entrepreneurs, they have business in which all they want to make money. Robin: Right. Jason: They are not really concerned about solving the problem, but real business exists to solve the problem. Property managers solve the real problem. Robin: Right. Jason: I think a lot of them are very much enjoy people who are contribution-focused. That really was great to watch you guys go through and trust that. You guys asked a lot of questions. Robin: Yeah. Jason: A lot of questions, good questions, then you guys took action. You guys did stuff. You did the things that I told you to do. Robin: Yeah. Jason: You did a lot of different things. You’ve gone from saying, "It's a liability. Let's just close it down," to saying, "Hey, maybe there's something here." To getting coaching, to going through a process, cleaning up your reputation, working on your website, working on your pricing model, working on your sales process, working on your prospecting methods. You've really gone through all of that and then we started getting on the operational things, figuring out your team a little bit, figuring how to get you in alignment with your business that wasn't so uncomfortable. Robin: Right. Jason: Because it was, it was uncomfortable for you at some times. Robin: Yes. It was. Jason: I think we've all been there. I remember some calls of you where you were like, "How do I get this one team member to do things the way that I want them to do?" Robin: Right. Jason: "I want things to be this way." Your perspective shifted really quickly after that. Robin: Oh, I did. Yeah. I've learned a lot. Jason: How do you feel like your business is now? How does it feel different now having gone through all that? Robin: We have no jerk's policy. You were talking about the kind of clients that you want to attract and it's the same. Life's too short. We've had some clients that are just not great and we let them go. That takes some faith in the system because it'd be easy for me to say, "I have a staff. They can deal with this person. I don't have to deal with him. I'm just going to keep them because of the income." But that's not really the culture that I want. I don't want unhappy employees to hate me because I keep bad clients on. We've attracted so many just really cool, nice people who get it. There's people that just don't. They don't get it. They don't see the value of property management. They maybe have self-managing for a long time and they don't see the value, but there are other people that do, and those are the people we want to work with. We've really streamlined our criteria about the kind of clientele we want, the kind of properties that we want to manage. We manage several HOAs. We don't manage them anymore. They had their separate challenges that weren't really working for our business model and so we let all of them go. That's income, but it's been replaced. It’s come back around. You were talking about relationships. You said to us, "Your property management company will be a place where you get referrals for your brokerage." I've got one in escrow right now that we’ve managed for a couple of years. Another one that we managed that were evicting a tenant and putting on the market. It is true that the property management company has been an interesting gateway to the brokerage business which has sort of become my side hustle, if you will, not my main thing. Jason: Yeah. It's a good side hustle. Robin: Yeah. Jason: One of the things that I point out to clients, and for those listening, I think it's very easy for us as business owners to fall into having the business that we can create or that we can have. Having the types of businesses that we can serve instead of having the business that we really want and the clients that we really want. Robin: Right. Jason: It's such a slight distinction and such an easy trap to fall into. It's similar to what I said outside of this is that, ultimately, I think what happens to clients is that we help them understand not just who they want to really work with, but who they don't want to work with. Then when they get that clarity and we then engineer the sales process and the reputation process, your pricing, and everything around who you really want then the message creates and attracts the right type of clients or tells the wrong type of clients, and so you are now attracting the right type of clients. I think a lot of property managers are hearing you and they just don't believe it. They’re hearing you say, "Our clients are great. We love them. They are easy. "And they’re like, "She's smoking something." They don’t get it because they’re feeling, "I know. I talk to people every day." And they’re like, "I hate this business sometimes. It's crazy. I'm struggling. We are dealing with people who are like we have to replace one door every time we get a door on." Really, it’s that they’re putting out the wrong type of energy, message, or perception or they’re focusing on the wrong type of audience and they don't see that it's possible. This sounds like a pipe dream to them. How would you explain that to somebody that's sitting where you were two or three years ago? Robin: It does sound like a pipe dream, doesn't it? It does sound a little bit scary to start trusting the process and that you will get new doors on if you let go of some. I'm a firm believer of that kind of energy anyway. You let go of some things and they are going to be replaced by something better anyway. I'm a firm believer in that kind of energy, but you might not be able to let go. Let's say you start doing the process and you start to GatherKudos and you start getting more clients. Then you'll be able to slowly maybe let go of the worst ones to replace it with better ones. You've got to trust the process. That's the thing and it's an empty card. I think a lot of times in this business, I've seen it in brokerage, and I'm sure it happens in every business, people get desperate and they accept treatment from clients they don't really want to accept, but they get desperate. We've had people call us and other people will do it for less. [...]. I mean, go ahead. I saw somebody on one of the DoorGrow threads say, "If you want peanuts, you're going to get monkeys or something." It was essentially like. Jason: If you’re working for peanuts, yeah. Robin: Right because that's what you pay for. Jason: [...] monkey if you’re working for peanuts. Robin: Right. There's a lot of people that would do it for less, go ahead. If that's your main thing, is somebody who would, "What the price is?” I mean, I was telling my husband, I said, "I've never gone in the hair salon and said, okay, how much?" It's more of what can you do and then how much. Don't you want to know what the product is? I have these people call me the other day and they had a litany of questions. I was being peppered with questions. I finally said, "It sounds like you guys have a lot of questions, maybe we can set up a meeting." They were just hammering me on pricing and I said, "Maybe we’re not a fit." It's okay to walk away, you are not going to fit with everyone. Jason: Probably the people that ask endless litany of questions, they're usually really looking for an excuse not to work with you... Robin: Right. Jason: ...especially if they know that your pricing is higher. They're looking, "There's got to be a reason I want to work with these guys, give me an excuse. Oh, you guys don't do that one little thing? Hahaha. I have my excuse. Now, I can avoid this leap that I was going to take working with a coach, working with this business, or whatever. I can avoid that and I can stay in my mediocrity. I can stay in my stuff. I can stay in my dysfunction." I mean, there might be people that call you up asking about your business and they really just want to self-manage. They're just looking for an excuse why is it too expensive or too bad of an idea, or why can't I not trust them so that I can hold onto this moldy peanuts and [...] a monkey and keep my hand in the monkey trap. They want to hold on to it. They don't want to let go and they are looking at you to give them a reason. I love when people play tug of war game with me. Robin: Right. Jason: My favorite thing in the tug of war game is to let go of the rope. Robin: Right, exactly. Jason: And watch them fall on their ass and then they are sitting there holding on going, "Why won’t you play with me? Why won’t you fight me on this?" "I don’t need to, I don’t need to play that game." Let’s get into the changes that you’ve made. Your business from where it is now in almost every way is different. Robin: Right. Jason: What changes did we go through? Did you mess with your branding? Robin: The logo. Jason: Okay. We did change something to do with branding. Then we go into the reputation stuff you mentioned. And you guys also have process now reaching out to people, and stuff like that. Or it’s gotten [...] for you? Robin: We used LeadSimple. I tried so many different things just to make our systems better as you bring on more doors, you have a quality problem of how do you manage everything. The system of bringing them on board and all of that. I’ve actually just been working, finessing our onboarding process. Our BDM wouldn’t get all of the necessary information. The BDM just wants the signature on the contract. Jason: Right. "Let’s get the deal, let’s close it." Robin: I realized, "You go get that signature, I’ll get the rest of the stuff." I’ll send them a welcome email with all the things that we need, and that has really worked out well for us. Jason: You’ve also revamped your pricing, right? You went through significant change there. You revamped your sales process, which you’re talking about right now. Robin: Right. Jason: Making significant changes there in optimizing that. How about the methods for feeding this funnel and prospecting methods? Robin: I’ll talk about a couple of things that have worked for us, and then something that haven’t worked for us because I’ve tried everything. Something that’s very, very simple is that when you have a business, whatever it is, you need people to know what you do. Especially in property management, my local area, there are people that sell products that can sell to a nationwide audience, that’s not what I do. I am managing properties in my local area. I think focusing on that type of local people that are local professionals that know what I do, and that can refer business to me. We do a lot of speaking engagements. We have Dan [...] presentation and then we have one that we’re doing right now that we’ve done a couple of times that is some before and afters because we do a lot with clients that have maybe inherited a property or bought something at a discount that needs to completely be rehabbed. We’ve worked through a lot of those. We’ve some before and afters and we talk about the clients getting more money in their pocket every month now because of turning the units. We got a client that inherited a property that his mother had owned and she had kept the rents the same for years. One bedroom was getting a month. It’s now getting . Jason: Wow. Robin: How can you argue with that? Jason: That’s what sells. What really sells, what people want to buy are results. Robin: Exactly. That’s why that presentation has been so successful, it’s black and white, it’s the numbers, it’s the before and after pictures, it’s the before and after rent rolls. It shows clients, when we manage their properties, and we have a lot of guys that work for us that can do the turns. We do a lot of it. We can discuss a lot of business. We have a lot of vendors that give us great deals. It’s been really beneficial for our clients. Doing this speaking engagement gets us out there and has people see what we do. That’s been very beneficial. I go to events, I’m really the only property management company there. There’s no other property management company that show up to these events that I go to. In general networking event, I don’t really seem to get much out of those. In our area, we have the realtor referral program on our website, we don’t get anything. I don’t know if it’s because the realtors in our area, they’re doing one-offs, kind of they’ve got one deal and that’s it, you never hear from them again or in LA County you make so make so much money on one deal that our little referral, they don’t care, they’re not interested. Jason: Not as enticing. Ultimately, having a relationship with real estate agents is what works... Robin: Right. Jason: ...and nurturing relationship long term. That’s really what works there. You mentioned before and after and how effective that is. Let’s paint a picture of your before and after for your business that helps me out. Let’s look at this. Before, when you came to me, you were 50, 60 units? Robin: I want to say it was 65 doors, 64 doors, right there. Jason: Okay. And then where you guys at now? Robin: Right around 200. Jason: Oh my gosh. So, 200 doors. How many doors were you adding when you were at the 65? What was the sort of the challenge then? What was the typical growth rate? Robin: Nothing. The growth rate was a negative. We were losing. We weren’t doing anything. The company was just in the other room on its own and we weren’t doing anything to try to grow it. Jason: No growth. That’s 65 doors and now, if you guys were at about 200 doors under management, what sort of the growth rate still like? How many doors you add in typically in a month on average? Robin: Typically, a month, 2-5. Jason: Okay. Steadily. If that’s the case then you must be retaining doors a lot longer. Robin: We always have. Our retention rate is really a lot longer I think than the stats I’ve heard in the industry. We’ve done well with that. Jason: Which [...] targeting better owners, or owners that are not just accidentals that are going to fold after a year. Robin: Right. I find the single family is what we like to target and the small multi-family. We do manage some properties, that’s why 2-5 a month, sometimes that’s not necessarily doors that’s properties, some of those properties might have 4 units. Jason: Oh, okay. Robin: We’ve taken on some larger multi-family. We actually started in multi-family. Jason: [...] a year typically on average adding a month maybe is what, maybe about 10? Robin: It may be. Depending. Sometimes it’s just five single family. It just depends on the month. A lot of times though because we’re doing so much prospecting, we have so many in the pipe that somebody I’ve been talking to for four months comes on, that kind of thing. That works well. Jason: That [...] nurture process. Robin: I just found that people that have the 25-unit buildings and things like that, they want you to run your business the way they want you to run it. I had a guy come and talk to us. We do all of our statements, there’s an owner portal, we email them, we don’t do a paper statement, and he wanted a bound paper statement every month, so his wife could read it. I said, "Too bad, we don’t do that." Jason: Could you imagine if you had 20 of those to do a month? Robin: Exactly. Jason: 50 of those to do a month? Robin: They seem to want special treatment so you really have to set your boundaries and know what you’re willing to accept. There’s always negotiation. It’s business. There’s always a bending. You might think, "Well, this is so worth it. You know what, I will lower my price on this or that, or I will do something out of the ordinary." But for the most part, you really have to stick to your guns and know what you’re willing to accept. That works for us. Jason: Works for me too. I love hearing about you and your husband’s successes. It’s really great to see you. I appreciate you coming on the show and hanging out with me. It’s great to hear that you guys are 200 doors and having growth. You guys are headed into what I call the second [...]. That’s the 200-400 doors and this is where now you’re dealing with processes and staff, and building a team. You’ve got some new challenges ahead. Maybe we’ll be talking soon. Robin: Okay, good. Jason: [...] challenges. It’s really great to see your success. Shameless plug, for those that are considering maybe working with me, doing the seed program, maybe they’re skeptical, or they’ve heard mixed reviews. What would you say to them about me, what’s your perception of me and DoorGrow? Robin: I can’t say enough positive things about you and DoorGrow. It has truly changed our business. If you have a property management company, if you’re starting a property management company, especially if you’re starting one, there’s not so much clean up that you’ll have to do. Do it right from the beginning. Jason is very genuine. He’s a good human being. That’s important. We trust you, we really care about you and you care about us, and we’ve had a two-year relationship with you and we know you’re there for us. We’ve seen the results. Not only that, for me, it was hard for me to trust the results, and trust that they were going to keep coming, and they have. You don’t just get a new DoorGrow website and have a seat and have everything come to you. That’s not how it works, but it’s all of these different pieces that starts to funnel business your way. Jason: I tell potential clients or even clients, it’s the last 10% of dialling in things that give you 90% of the results. Robin: That makes sense. Jason: It’s that last 10%. For example, they’ll do the website, but they don’t get faces on there, they don’t get the social proof. They’re missing just a couple little pieces. I have the whole website, that’s 90%. But they’re missing the little pieces that create that trust or ticket to the next level. How I built my business, and how I built the entire program is built around the idea of trusts. Trust is what sells and the fact that you came on board and trusted me, allowed me to help you create a business that creates trust. It sounds like you’re putting out a lot of trust for the industry and property management industry in your market which I think is awesome as well. You’re changing the perception of property management. There’s a lack of trust. For those that are listening, pay attention to this, people that are not signing up with you that you feel like should be, it’s not because they distrust you, it’s because you haven’t created enough trust for them to pick you over your competition. You just haven’t created enough trust. It’s not that they’re walking around just distrusting everybody. Maybe they are, maybe the property management industry has earned a bad reputation in some ways. But I think more than that, it’s that you haven’t created enough trust. It’s about creating that trust. Anyway, I honor you for your growth. You did all of these. You did it. I just pointed, and you and your husband deserves all the props for making this happen. Robin: Thank you. Jason: Really, you guys have done some phenomenal things. Like you said earlier, “I tried everything.” You have the tenacity. And I gave you ideas, but you tried things, you tried everything out. You did, you trusted the process but you experimented and that’s really what entrepreneurs do. That’s how business works. Robin: Yeah. We’re still tweaking. You mentioned the website. Jason: Always. Robin: I just took the website quiz again last week. I got a B. There’s a couple of things we need to tweak. Jason: I have a new training called Website Secrets that you got to watch. Robin: Right. Jason: And we’re getting to an A. Robin: Yeah, exactly! I know exactly what we need to do and it’s just getting with your team and making those tweaks. Jason: Make sure you watch the training because some of my questions in DoorGrow secrets or in the DoorGrow score quiz. Robin: I will. Jason: If anyone wants to grade their website, you can go to doorgrow.com/quiz and take a test to grade your website, how effective it is to creating trust and getting conversions, but some of the questions are backwards. You think you’re saying, “Yes, I’m going to get this, and I need to add this for my website.” It’s a trick, it’s like the reverse. I didn’t really explain which ones are right and which ones are wrong, I’m just asking do you have this and then it gives you a grade in the end. You’re on the inside. I’ve seen people go and implement a bunch of changes, thinking they could just go off the quiz and then it’s just [...] they can clear things up. Cool. Robin, really great to see you again. I’m excited to hear about your continuing success and what [...] big and brighter future with Concept 360 Property Management. Robin: Thank you. Thank you so much. Jason: Alright. I’ll let Robin go. Really great to connect with her. Always exciting to see and share in the winds with clients. Man, I would love to take all the credit, but my best clients, all the ones that are in my case studies that you guys can see back onto the doorgrow.com/case-studies, these are clients that they trusted the process, but they did the work. They did the work. This is a secret, there’s no company that you can just go hand them money and they’re going to give you contracts. We don’t do that. Marketing agencies can’t do that. The best they can give you, most agencies with cold leads, we’re going to help you build system so that your business grows more organically, that it’s easier that we put gasoline on the fire that works in the sense you which is word of mouth and we optimize your business towards that. If you are struggling to grow, if you are maybe what Robin was in the beginning saying, "It’s a liability, let’s just close it. I’m burnt out, I’m stressed out. I’m not getting any younger." I’ve heard these phrases from clients. Get on the phone with DoorGrow or start with our case studies, go to doorgrow.com/case-studies and just start there. If you go there, there is a free training—it really is the beginning of our program, I give it out for free. There is a link you can click on to watch free training about DoorGrow Secrets. It’s going to share with you concepts like the cycle of suck, the 4Ds to revenue, cold leads versus warm leads, the myth of SEO, so that you can be a more savvy educated person with marketing and growing your business. If you decide that we can help you out, I would love to do that. If you feel like you are a right fit, you are open-minded, you’re the right type of client, I would love and be honored to be able to work with you and coach you and help you grow your company. Again, thanks Robin for coming on the show. Until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life. This document has been edited with the instant web content composer. The online instant HTML converter make a great resource that will help you a lot in your work. Save this link or add it to your bookmarks.  

We all have "beginning" to our journey as a wedding creative. In this episode we talk with Tiffany Von, one of our oldest and dearest friends here at StopGoLove about going from shooting (amazing) senior portraits to hustling her way to be known as one of Boston's premiere wedding photographers and serious girl boss. We explore how she found her creative voice as an artist and that time she told Jason "No". 

Today, I am talking to Gwenn Aspen of Anequim, which offers remote assistant, Rent Manager call center, and Rent Manager software consulting services. Also, Gwenn and her husband, Jeremy, own the Wistar Group, a property management company. You’ll Learn... [04:40] How helping a friend, helped property management companies hire employees. [05:20] Currently, 150 employees in Mexico work remotely for property management companies in the United States and Canada. [06:25] Connections and Relationships: Life is all about taking care of and looking out for those you know and love. [06:50] Internal References and Cultural Differences: Holding each other accountable results in low turnover/high retention. [08:20] Managers Managing Remotely: If you manage someone who works remotely, get to know them as a human being. [10:51] Webcam: Teams founded on trust and transparency should be seen and heard. [14:50] For better or worse, Anequim and Wistar Group are unique and original company names that could be patented to prevent being sued. [16:45] Finding a Good Fit: Anequim helps potential clients identify things that they don’t like to do and give them to someone who does. [20:51] Time vs. Energy: Avoid burnout by identifying what fills or drains your energy. [22:20] Onboarding Training: Includes four ways to not die in property management. [26:12] Vetting Team Members: Extensive process of selecting candidates for clients. [29:47] Working in Mexico: No background checks possible or databases available. [34:09] Progress, not Perfection: Help property managers move forward and feel confident in making a commitment. [38:21] Anequim Structure: Assistants, solution agents, and others handle 1,200 units. [42:36] Every business needs systems: Planning, process, documentation, and communication. Tweetables Power of the Webcam with Virtual Teams: Just be there, and be seen. Time and Attention: A manager’s most important resources; use them wisely. Word to the Wise: Keep your clothes on when training employees. Our job is to make sure people are happy with their candidates. Resources Anequim Gwenn Aspen on Facebook Gwenn Aspen’s Email Wistar Group DGS 76: Outsourcing Rules for Small, Medium and Large Companies with Todd Breen of VirtuallyinCredible First, Break All the Rules: What the World's Greatest Managers Do Differently Zoom Myers–Briggs Type Indicator Fair Housing Act Americans with Disabilities Act Culture Index Traction by Gino Wickman SweetProcess Process Street Basecamp Help Scout Intercom Management Time: Who's Got the Monkey? DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today's guest, I'm hanging out with the fabulous Gwenn Aspen of Anequim. Gwenn, welcome to the show. Gwenn: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Jason: I'm excited to have you. It's really fun hanging out with you in the green room and you were showing me your nerd glasses. Gwenn: That I carry around with me everywhere I go because there's always a need. They’re literally nerd glasses, you guys. They're from Hobby Lobby, I got them for an event I had to go to because we were revenge of the nerds and I bring them everywhere because that's how nerdy I really am. But we can have fun too, we can be fun nerds. Right, Jason? Jason: Yes. Maybe. It's probably possible. A lot of people think I wear all these weird, different glasses especially the orange ones. People notice I wear this orange glasses and they always come up to me and they think I'm trying to be so cool. Their like, "Why are you wearing this glasses? Are you trying to be Bono?" Which is funny because Bono wears them to block blue light, right? He's not wearing them just to be cool but he is cool. Way cooler than me. Then I go into this diatribe of why I wear them and how they block blue light and how it helps set my biorhythm patterns, helps me get good sleep, and then they’re just sorry they asked. Gwenn: Well, that's what’s in your nerd shows Jason. Jason: And then they realized they are nerd glasses, so they realize I'm a nerd. Gwenn: Yes, because they bring out your inner nerd when you wear them and people ask about them. Jason: Yeah. So, I got some less orange ones. This are my nerd glasses. This make me look a little bit smarter. Gwenn: I think they look good. I like them a lot. Jason: They're a little yellow to them but I don't have the tape. I have to get the tape and maybe add the tape at some point just to look more nerdy. Alright Gwenn, let's get into this. Give us a little bit background, so you run this company doing remote assistance from Mexico and you said they're not virtual assistance because they're not robots, right? Gwenn: Right. No. They're not. Jason: You manage Rent Manager, the property management back office. You manage Rent Manager's call center, so you have a call center for Rent Manager people. Gwenn: We do. Jason: Then you also have Wistar Group which is a property management company in Omaha, Nebraska. Gwenn: Yes. That's all true. My husband and I started Wistar Group back in 2006 so we've been doing this for a long time. In 2008, a friend of his called him from Mexico because he lived in Mexico before I knew him for five years doing something totally different, transportation and logistics. The friend called and she said, "You think the economy is bad in the United States? Well, you should come down to Mexico. Things are really bad down here and I lost my job. Is there any way I could work for you in some capacity from home?" Because it wasn't only about the economy, but it was pretty dangerous at that time and my husband is the most loyal person you'll ever meet, for better or worse. That's right when VoIP phones came out so we sent one down to her, we figured how to make it work and she started answering the calls for Wistar Group—at that time, it was called Certified Property Management. She's taking the calls and it works awesome. We love it. She loves it. It's great. Then we just started, as we grew, hiring all her friends for all the other jobs that we had. We just operated like that because it works for us for many years and then in 2016, our friends from Boutique Property Management in Denver, we were hanging out with them and they're like, "Hey, this Mexico thing is working out great for you guys. Can you hook us up with people from Mexico?" I was like, "Sure." Then I got them some employees from Mexico and they loved it. My husband and I were like, "Maybe we can help more property managers with this," and so it grown like wildfire since then and now we have almost 150 employees in Mexico working for property management companies across the U.S. and Canada. It's just a win-win for everyone and it's just so exciting and I love my job so much. Jason: Okay, great. This sounds very similar to [inaudible 00:05: 37] who we had in the show except they do the thing in the Philippines. It sounds like a very similar sort of etymology or story behind how you got into this and it really was filling your own need and starting by helping a friend and it grew into helping all these different property managers. That's the interesting thing I've heard from those that have Mexican staff is that they hire one and all of a sudden, all their family and friends start becoming team members too. Gwenn: Yeah. Jason: That must be a culturally different thing, I think with Mexico versus the Philippines. I think they are both very family-oriented, but I think there's something about Mexico that they're like, "Hey, hire my brother." Or, "Hire this family member," and they're connecting people. Gwenn: Oh my gosh. Yeah, the connections that they have, don't we all love that? Isn't that what life is all about? Is connections and taking care of the people that you love, that you know. It's just yet another thing to love about all the people I know in Mexico, is just how much they care for one another and have each other's back and then also hold each other accountable. That's the other things are that we grow a lot through internal references from one employee to another. If someone has a problem and they were the one who referred them, man. They hear it from the other employee. I mean there are that many cultural differences, but that's been a fun one. It really ends up keeping the turnover really low because they are happy, our employees work from home, and they love it, that's a huge advantage. They have this great connection with each other and we have Christmas parties. We're going to have a summer picnic with everybody. It's added a lot of richness to my life, just getting to know the employees as well. Jason: I was going to bring that up. A while back, I read a book called First, Break All the Rules. I believed it's pulled up by the Gallup Organizations that does the pulling. They did a whole bunch of surveying companies trying to figure out what makes a really good team and what creates retention with the team. One of the number one indicators of retention whether somebody was going to stay in the company was whether they have a friend in the business or somebody they are connected to personally on the team. So, that makes a lot of sense. It increases retention, significantly. Gwenn: I would say that's our job. If we’re going to hire someone remotely, if we’re the managers of this person, it's imperative that you get to know them as a human being to get that retention and to get that buy-in and to get them on your same mission going in the same direction. I feel like I know you much better right now just because we are in a Zoom Conference and that doing what with cam... Jason: Now, we're totally homies because we are in Zoom. Gwenn: Yeah, now we’re homies and we have the nerd glasses together, I mean. Those little things add to the relationship so if you make a point, I only communicate with people from Mexico using webcam because we have this amazing connection then and we feel like we know each other better. If you use a webcam, I swear it makes all the difference and getting buy-in from a remote employee. Jason: I absolutely agree. I've done a lot of remote hiring in the past and there's a huge difference, but it got to a point where eventually, I have a policy in our company called the Webcam Policy and everyone is required to have a webcam to be on the team and to communicate and show up and turn on the camera when we do meetings because it ended up being, at one point I remember showing up having team meetings and there's 5-10 people without their webcams on and there's just me putting on the show. Gwenn: I love that. I don't have an official policy, but not that you said it, I'm adding it. But I also have another employee from a totally different industry, he did a lot in banking and he was told to never have his webcam on. It was such a cultural dissonance when he came on the team because we were like, "Put your camera on. I can't see you. I don't know what you're doing. I need to see you." It was hard for him. It's good if you're somebody who requires webcams and state it at the beginning because some people, it takes them a while to get used to it. Jason: Yeah. It is a part of my onboarding process that they have to review the webcam policy and read it. Do you want me to tell you some of it here? Gwenn: Yeah. I think it's so important because whether you do remote employees from Mexico, whether you have someone in the Midwest, you know a lot of people hire people from rural Nebraska to work for their company because it's a lot less expensive. Jason: Alright. I'm going to share an internal secret here. Gwenn: Understanding the power of a webcam is crucial for the relationship working in my opinion. Jason: Alright. Here's our webcam policy for those listening. We are a team founded on the values of trust and transparency. It is important in a virtual team to be able to see one another on our virtual meetings since we often can't meet directly in person. As a team, we don't care about your hair, makeup, clothes, etc.during internal meetings. Just be there. Not having a webcam during internal meetings can feel like talking with someone behind a reflective window. It causes humans to try to assume and guess too much because they lack nonverbal cues we have evolved to rely on. Why address this? And then in bullets: to promote an environment of trust and transparency, to improve the efficiency of company communications and shorten meetings by effectively communicating with the full spectrum of verbal facial expressions and nonverbal cues, to reduce multitasking, right? Because they [...], they're like, "Oh yeah. I'm listening." Gwenn: Right. Totally. Jason: To reduce the anxiety of those speaking on camera, and then having the expectation. It is expected that all team members will join OpenPotion, that's our corporation, virtual meetings on video in order to fully engage in team and one-on-one meetings, this promotes collaboration on multiple levels and it allows each individual to feel heard as they see and receive nonverbal cues from their peers. This also increases productivity and reduces anxiety as ideas are better understood when they're coupled with facial expressions, gestures, and other forms of nonverbal communication. When meeting with clients, we appreciate you doing your best to make yourself and your background presentable, but that is not required. We just want you fully present and visible. Then I have a quote and it says, "The most important thing in communication is hearing what isn't said," Peter Drucker. Gwenn: Oh, I love it. I love it although I would push back on the not caring what you look like because I've had people show up, not very often, but I had a guy and he looked like he'd just been to the club, and just rolled out of bed, and I was like, "Man." Also, you have to know your audience. We have a screenshot and keystroke that we record of everyone that's working for us while they're working not when they're not. We had one guy who was at a webcam conference and he had his hat sideways and my assistant was like, "Is that okay?" If you live in California that might be okay, but if you're with an older team in Omaha and you have your cap on sideways, it just might not work. I was like, "No. They're in California. It's totally fine." She was like, "Oh, okay." You have got to know your audience, better know your audience. Jason: I think it all boils down to what the entrepreneur wants though too. Before the call, I'd ask you what your Myers-Briggs Type was and you're an ENTJ, so you've got that J in the end. Gwenn: So, I’m Judgy? That means I'm judgy, right? Jason: Yeah. You're judgy which means you're a planner. You want things done a certain way. This details matter to you. I'm a P so I'm all over the place. I'm a bit more open-minded and I love taking you Js and cracking you open a little bit to expose you to some things you weren't exposed to before. Gwenn: I need people like you in my life too because I can't be too in the box. It's so nice to have that fresh [...]. Jason: J from the box for sure. Ps have no box and Js look at us like we're crazy. Some of the Ps that are perceiving, that's what the P stands for, they will take in things from all different sources, all different ideas, and to most Js, that's being so open-minded, their brain is falling out. It's how Js kind of view us sometimes but we need each other. All these other different types. I definitely need Js on my team to run my email, handle my calendar, do all the planning stuff that is not fun for me. You do this virtual team thing, how does somebody start with you if they come to you and they're like, "Hey, Anequim." First, where did that name came from? What does this name mean? Gwenn: I'm going to give you the real answer. We used to be a certified property management and then [...] wanted to sue us because they were like, "We have a certified property manager distinction," or whatever. Jason: Designation. Gwenn: Designation. We were like, “Well, we wanted to rebrand anyway,” because we started from nothing and took any piece of garbage that had a roof on it and then as time went on we became more sophisticated, and wanted to take out nicer properties, but in the local market, we were the low end. We already were going to rebrand, but we didn't want to get sued or threatened of a lawsuit again, so we were like, "We have to have something that's totally unique." Well, it's very hard you guys. It's so hard to find something completely unique. My husband's a pilot for fun and so he loves this airplane called Anequim and it means mako shark in Portuguese, anyway that was like a word we could use that was unique. We got Anequim and then Wistar Group. Wistar is my middle name and they were unique enough that my best friend who is a patent attorney approved them. For better or worse we're Anequim and Wistar Group. Jason: There you go. Alright. Portuguese mako shark. Gwenn: It's also an airplane. Jason: Which has nothing to do with Mexico whatsoever. They don't even speak Spanish. Gwenn: But I'm not going to get sued for it, so you know. Jason: No, it's perfect. It's a unique and original name which is helpful in branding, right? Okay, cool. Now, how does somebody get started with you guys. Somebody comes to you and say, "Hey, I’ve got a problem." How do you know that you can help them? Because I'm sure there are clients that you don't take on and there are clients that aren’t a good fit. Gwenn: There are. In fact, there were two clients yesterday that called me and I was like, "You know what? I think you guys just need to wait for a minute." And that is my thing. We don't sell. We try to make a relationship because if I sell you and then it doesn't work for you, then it creates a lot of heartache and drama for me because I want the person in Mexico to be happy and I want the person in the United States to be happy. What happened yesterday was, this one guy was buying another company, and they already had two employees there, but he hadn't really worked with them yet. I was like, "Hmm." He was going to be managing 400 properties. I felt like his people count was good enough for 400 properties, so I said, "Just take on these two new people. Measure processes and procedures together, make sure it works, and then when you get a handle on them then call me." He was like, "Okay. That's a better idea. That's what I'm going to do." If you call me and it's not going to work for you, I might tell you to do a few things first. Then the other guy called me and I thought again that his head count was already too high. I thought you could make more efficiencies in his software because a lot of people only use 5% of the software that they have purchased. If you have five really expensive employees and 400 units, I kind of think you should work on being more efficient first with your software and then call me. Jason: Yeah, right. Gwenn: Unless, you’re going to transition things—but these were obviously, longer conversations, I'm giving you the shortened versions—so if someone calls me and they're like, "No. I need somebody. I'm working my butt off and I need some relief." Then we'll talk about a job description first because I need to find the right person for this role. I need to know what kind of tasks you want. For instance, if you want someone to be doing a lot of cold calling then that's going to be a different person than someone's who's going to be helping you associate the right invoices with the right property and the right owner, right? We have to make sure we have a good job description. Also, your training is going to be better, it’s going to be a smoother onboarding process if you are really clear about what your needs are. Now, a lot of people will call me and they are just overwhelmed and they'll just be like, "I need a personal assistant." A lot of the times I push back on the personal assistant and I say, "Why do you need a personal assistant?" And they'll be like, "I just hate taking the phone calls. " I say, "Okay. Well, let's find someone to take your phone calls." Really, if you want a personal assistant because you are overwhelmed, think about the things that you hate doing that don't bring you joy, that don't fill you up, and let's give those to someone who's a better fit for those roles, that loves doing those things. Usually, it starts with a conversation about what the pain point is and what people really need, who they already have in their team, and what software they are using. We come up with a plan that would actually help them get what they want. That's kind of my goal. It maybe me, it may not be me, but my goal because I come from the property management world is just to prevent burnout from whoever's calling me. Whatever that looks like. Jason: Yeah, so you're helping them a little bit “KonMari” their time, right? Gwenn: Yes. Jason: And you we're talking about that before. Gwenn: Oh my gosh. Well, I love that. Maybe I should use that, but you have so many things that you have to do. Some people are coaches and that's really important to them, their property managers, and their families. Your time and attention are two of your most important resources and everyone on your team needs you to be using those wisely if you’re the one steering the boat. Jason: Yeah. I'm a big fan or proponent of energy management over time management... Gwenn: Yes. Jason: ...and really identifying what energies you as an entrepreneur versus what drains you because we really afford doing the things that energizes us, we have an endless amount of energy. Like our life and our businesses fills us but if we are doing things that drain us, burnout sets in and it's inevitable, it becomes really difficult. I think it's really important for people to pay attention to their time and what really is giving them momentum. I tell property managers all the time, “Anything that's been sitting on your to-do list for more than a few weeks, you're probably not the person that should be doing it. Let's be honest.” Gwenn: Right. Absolutely. There are people like, you and I we are just talking about how our personalities are different. Find someone who you like working with. Who you enjoy spending time with because it isn't actually an employee essentially just living far away that compliments you and can do the things that you struggle doing. Our role is to help people do that and we also train them on the first day so I have very high anxiety. I take care of things that make me anxious. I always go over the four ways people can die in property management on the first day, carbon monoxide poisoning, natural gas explosion, fire, and a technician being mistaken as an intruder and getting shot, and the importance of asking permission to enter. Those are four things we go over, which is really funny because when we turn over the training to the client, my assistant will always be like, "So, what did you learn in training?" And they're like, "How not to die in property management." The clients are like, "What?" I mean, I told them that we were going to talk about that with the agents but people forget and they're caught off guard. Jason: Four ways to die. Gwenn: Four ways to die, but those are really, really important and it really does happen. And our industry, there's been a number of deaths that we're all aware of, and so it's really important whether you're going to hire someone remotely or not to really discuss what bad things can happen, and how to make sure they don't happen in on-boarding training. The other thing we cover is Fair Housing and American Disabilities Act. That really should be trained every year if that's not on people's schedules for training. Domestically, I don't do this with the remotes, but domestically at our property management company, the other one is sexual harassment prevention training. We have a 70-year-old sales guy and then we have a 21-year-old front office lady. When you have multi-generational employees especially what they think is appropriate is totally different. It's important to discuss that because people aren't trying to be jerks, and they're not trying to be bad people, and they're not trying to offend anyone, it's just that what was totally appropriate in 1950 to talk about in the workplace is different. Also, on the 21-year-old side. I mean, 21-year-old sometimes think everyone's their best friend and they’re hanging out at the bar and it's not true. Having that conversation at the beginning of a relationship with any employee is important. Jason: Okay. Fair Housing and Disabilities Act, sexual harassment training, and four ways to die in property management. Gwenn: Yeah. If you're going to be using webcam, here's another thing. I did have a client who thought that it's totally appropriate to train his new employee without any clothes on, so a word to the wise, keep your clothes on if you are going to be training somebody. People, sometimes just don't know, they just don't know. I'm sure it was hot, it was summer, maybe went out to the pool and came back. It was really not okay. It's another thing to keep in mind. Jason: Policies improve overtime. You know there's something interesting if my webcam policies say, "Don't be naked." It doesn't say that yet. We haven't had that come up yet, but if it does happen, we'll definitely have that in. Gwenn: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: I mean, I had no idea that's going to be an issue but... Jason: Right. You never know until it happens. I think that's how all of the property management contracts evolved over time. Like, "Oh, this one's a weird new situation. Let's avoid that in the future and write that into our contract." Gwenn: Right. Jason: Okay. Somebody comes to you, you start them with some of these things, how are you vetting these Mexican employees, these team members? What are some of the things you go through to ensure that you're getting a good match, you're finding somebody who's really a good fit for a position? Help those that are listening feel safer using Anequim to find them a team member. Gwenn: Sure. The first thing is that they have to fill out an application and upload a video of themselves speaking in English about their hobbies. You find out a lot about people when they think it's appropriate in a video to say about their hobbies and how good their English level is. It also demonstrates that they have some technological ability because they have to upload a video. Jason: Right. Gwenn: We get rid of a lot of applicants right there. If they make it through those two steps, then we have them take a personality test. We use the Culture Index, and the Culture Index indicates whether people have detail orientation or not. Generally speaking, unless I'm hiring for marketing position or outside sales or something, we are going to need detail orientation. We look for that. There are few personality types that we just don't hire at all and we also have a logic-emotional continuum. Anyone who's really low on logic also not pass to the next level. After that if the make it there then they do an initial interview and it's a pretty tough interview. Ensures they have the qualifications and the seriousness that we are looking for. Generally, the pool of candidates that we are looking for have worked previously for a large corporation. So, in the towns where we primarily source our candidates, they work for Nissan or GE or Hewlett-Packard or TATA Consulting, and there's some really big names where they've already one through a lot of the training that you wouldn't need to train a brand new person on. But they've already been through it so they know how to talk on the phone, they know how to deal with conflict in a professional manner, and they know how to write an email. We do benefit from all that corporate training many of our folks have already been through. Jason: Okay. Gwenn: If they make it through the interview then we are going to start calling their references and just make sure those show up well. After that, our clients, if they've made it through all the interviews, we’ve decided this person is worth this amount of money. We have a paying scale based on education level, work experience and we know what kind of job they would fit into then we match them with our clients we have who are looking. The clients get to look at three different candidates, and see if this is a cultural fit for them and if this is someone that's going to work on their team, and that they're going to feel comfortable with on a day to day basis. We always do the interviews in threes. Hopefully, we do our job well enough on the first three know exactly who we want, but if you want to do another round, our job is to make sure people are happy with their candidates. The one negative about working in Mexico—and this is going to be with a lot of the country that you would source from—background checks, it's not the same, there's no government database and even if there was it probably won't be accurate in the way that you and I would expect, so there's no background check policy or way to even do that if you wanted to. We rely a lot on internal references and those networks or people want to give us their best friend and then they internally hold them accountable as well. Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: We haven't had any issues with it, but I would suggest with anyone working remotely, you manage your privileges and your software. Rent Manager allows me to obscure social security numbers, credit card numbers, and we have a policy that nobody working from home has access to those, and you have to be in the office if you are going to be taking credit cards or looking at social security numbers. If you have good tight privileges, you don't really have much to worry about by hiring someone remote, and it's just a good policy anyway. Jason: Yeah. Alright. That is kind of the match making process. Gwen: Mmm-hmm. Jason: Then once they pick a candidate, what's the transition like this on the onboarding sort of process and how far does Anequim gets involved? Because I know some property managers are not probably used to having a virtual team member, they are probably going to make some mistakes, they might just say, "Hey, this virtual stuff doesn't work. I don't get it." How do you ensure that the transition is going to be healthy? Gwenn: First of all, we try to get a good plan on before we even get to that place. We have documents on ideal first two weeks of training and talk to them about what that process looks like, talk to them about technology, what kind of phones do you use. We recommend that you listen to calls if you're going to have someone who's the face of your company, and you're not going to be able to overhear them when you walk in the office. Here's a form on monitoring calls and here's the portal so you can see their screenshot and their keystrokes. We try to do all of that before the commitment takes place. Talk about what that looks like, so that when the commitment like, "Yes. I want to move forward," happens they've seen in their minds, "I kind of have an idea what this looks like." We don't want for either the client or the agent to get to a place where it's the first day and they just look at each other in webcam and go, "Okay, what do I do now?" We try to avoid that situation as much as possible, which is why we’re not trying to hard sell anyone. We want someone to be committed to the process and feel somewhat confident. Obviously, you're going to be a little bit nervous if you've never done this before, but that's why we are here to hold your hand, and give you that documentation and talk you through it so that you feel more confident before it actually happens. But then, on the handover meeting you're going to get all of them setup on their computers. You're going to get them to know everybody on your office, taking the laptop around and you're going to say, "Tell us something that people don't know about you." Or, "What are you grateful for today?" You know, a little icebreaker and then you'll get into the tasks. The great thing about working with Mexico is that they're on your time zone. Do you have to be perfect? Do you have to have the perfect documentation? No. Because like any other employee that you hire, you can just say, "Okay. I'm going to show you how to do this." They know it should be written down but it's not, "But you're going to help me write it down because I never had time to do this before. Here's the software where were writing it down. Here's how you're going to get a screenshot using Snagit. I'm going to video record myself going through this process and then make it a pretty process for me and then when it's done and it's all pretty, then you're going to do it." That's possible. Some people are further along in their processes and procedures than others, but by no means you have to have things perfect to move forward to the remote assistance. Jason: Yeah. The Myers-Briggs people with Js a lot of times get really caught up to being perfect before they move forward. They're like, " I have to have every process documented before I could grow my business." Gwenn: No, that's not the real world. I would say progress not perfection, right? I mean, you have to move forward. I'm reading this great book called the Billionaire Coach or the Trillionaire Coach, I think is what’s it called. It's really good. It's on my audible right now. But the guy is like, "Okay. Once you have things down, you have to go, and you have to go fast." I think that sometimes the people who are really into perfection lose sight of go, go fast, so it's always that balancing act. If you're not good at processes and procedures then hire someone to help you do that and just show them on in a video and say, " Okay, for the next three hours you're going to write this down. Okay? Then I'll check in on you in three hours and see how you're doing." Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: That's totally okay. Jason: I like that. Progress over perfection, so what I teach clients is, "Done is better than perfect." It's very similar. Gwenn: It is. Jason: Done is better than perfect. Get it done, you can always redo it later. You can make it better the second time around but having something is better than not having it. The other thing that I'll throw out there, sometimes is that perfect businesses are out of business. So, don't try to make everything so perfect before you move forward. It's the businesses that fail, that make mistakes, that rapidly prototype, that try stuff out and see what doesn't work, they're the ones that move forward faster. Gwenn: And when you have that hard day where things really did fall apart then just go back to the values. Like, "Okay, it fell apart, but I'm suring it up as a value, as a person with values. So, what does that look like?" If you have your values strong and you’re connected to them then when you mess up, if you just go back to that, you'll be fine. Jason: Right. Gwenn: That's how I look at it at least. Jason: That's the foundation. Gwenn: Yeah. Jason: A really strong why and set of values for the business. That's what creates culture in a company. Well, cool. What are some of the questions that property managers ask you that I haven't asked yet? Some of the frequently asked questions, concerns, considerations. Gwenn: The main thing is the role. People are just like, "Okay, everyone's doing VA and I know I should be doing it because I'm just supposed to be more profitable than I am right now, but where the heck do I get started?" Usually, when people ask that, I just tell them because we've been doing this since 2008, how our company is organized because I do feel like we do remote labor as high of a level as you could. You might structure it slightly differently but just to give people an idea because the thing is in people's minds and eyes, they remember virtual assistance. They think, "I need my processes to be perfect. This is someone who can only do route activities, can't think outside the box." All of that is not true. These people from Mexico, can be, if we hire for it, highly educated. We even have some professors on the team. We have some attorneys on the team. Highly-educated people who most certainly are capable of thinking outside the box. Guadalajara, where we source a lot of the people, it's the tech capital of Mexico. When I go to the Christmas Party in Guadalajara, people are speaking Spanish, English, French, Portuguese. It's like an international gathering, like any European city that you'll be at or anything like that. Here's how we're structured. We have 1200 units that we manage. We have three customer service people residing in Mexico who take all the front line calls. We actually call them Solutions Agent instead of Customer Service Agents because they're job is to provide solutions. They don't just read from a script, but they can also talk to tenants about their statement and what it means, what's this maintenance service issue, maintenance charge is for, and help people break a lease, give them information about breaking a lease, changing roommates, tell them if they could have a puppy or not. Actually solve problems that give solutions. They also take all the maintenances services issue and troubleshoot. The great thing is that you don't have a PhoneTree when you call into our office. You just get a person which is a really good customer service. Most property management that I call have a PhoneTree and then you still can't get a hold of everybody. Thinking about what the experiences of an owner calling your main line, and what that feels like, maybe important in many of the markets that people are in. Once someone takes their phone call, any elevated issues will go to the assistant property manager. Let's just take a simple thing, it's not even elevated but like a service issue. We’ll go from customer service agent, we'll take everything from the service issue then it goes to what we call the virgin list, the assistant property manager review that—and we have three of those, by the way, one for each property manager has an assistant who's a true assistant—and they look at all the service issues that come in and decide whether our internal maintenance team can handle it or if it needs to go into a vendor. If it needs to go to a vendor then they're in charge of putting a budget on it, and based on the contract, whatever the owner wants, and then signing it to a vendor and then following up on that. If it goes to our internal team, then another woman in Mexico who's the Maintenance Dispatcher decide whose list it goes on out of the 15 maintenance people that we have. Her job is to manage those guys' schedules and make sure they're busy. Make sure they have work and make sure that they're going to a place that makes sense. Then other people that we have is accounting. We have two people in accounting and collections. They don’t just do accounting but they're also are like, "Why is this maintenance guy going to store three times in a day?" He's like actually analyzing the invoices and saying, "This price doesn't make any sense." We have two people there. We have Applications Underwriter who does the applications in Mexico as well and a marketing person in Mexico. I feel like I'm forgetting somebody. I think that's it. Jason: Anything on the sales BDM side? Gwenn: No. My market, we get a lot of business just coming in the door so we don't have a BDM. We have some sales people that are on a commission basis but we don't have an official BDM role. We actually decided not to get one this year which is weird because sales always pay for itself, but when we look at the numbers in our market, it didn't make sense to get someone at that price point. Instead we’re buying a company in another market and growing that way, but that deal's not totally done yet. Jason: Right. Gwenn: Those are the people that we have in Mexico. Internally, we have a front office lady, a leasing agent, operations manager, a maintenance manager, and right now, we only have two property managers. And then my husband runs the company and puts his finger in everything. That's pretty lean for 1200 units, it's pretty a lean shop. Jason: Yeah, that's really lean. Then you have a pretty decent process documentation, I would imagine as well. Gwenn: We use SweetProcess, where we house our processes and procedures and we’re kind of obsessed with it. We use EOS so we’re using the traction book. We've been doing that for 2 ½ years now and love it. That's how we stay organized and set our goals and priorities and make sure that we don't get lost in the day to day task and know where we’re going on a daily basis. Jason: Yeah. I think every business, eventually, as they evolve, they need a planning system which you had mentioned EOS. Every business also needs a process system, some system for documenting process and leveraging these processes. We use Process Tree internally, which works out really well. Gwenn: And I like Process Tree, but it's more expensive than SweetProcess. It depends on what your needs are, but I would recommend looking at both and determining what's better for your organization. But yeah, I like both those systems a lot. Jason: Every business needs some sort of communication system in the business as well. As a team, we use Basecamp as our communication platform to communicate internally, and then you need a client supporting communication system. A lot of people are using Help Scout or Intercom, or one of these knowledge based support systems. There's probably other systems. I'm forgetting off the top of my head, but business really need all these different systems in place. Once you have these systems in place, it facilitates and enables your team to really do well and communicate and understand where the company is headed and get in alignment with your vision and your goals. It's a big deal. Gwenn: Yes. There's a lot to take on, but again, people don't have to be perfect. Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: Because when you say that it's like, "Oh my god, that's so overwhelming." But it doesn't have to. Jason: One thing at a time. Yeah. Gwenn: One thing at a time, Yeah. Jason: Cool. Cool. Gwenn: That's why I like EOS though because it takes that overwhelming. The, "Oh my god we have 10 million things we have to do this year," and it forces you to say, "Okay. How much energy do we really have and what are the priorities out of my list of million things that I'm going to do in these three months?" It actually helps you get more of that done than you would if you just look at the long list. Jason: Yeah. It has an etymology that's very similar to a lot of business planning systems and most every business planning system has annual objectives, quarterly objectives, monthly, and these things break down and the idea is, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." Gwenn: Right. Jason: It’s like these elephants, you break them down in a 90 day, 30 days, and then even weekly commitments as a team. But a lot of business don't have any sort of planning system in place, so they're hitting zero objectives because they really don't really have any, and there's no clarity around it. They’re just winging it and the entrepreneur's, they're crazy. Entrepreneurs come into the room and says changes every week, "Hey, guys. I got this great idea." And they lob a grenade in the middle of the room, pull the pin and lob this grenade and walk out. They're excited and pumped out and the team are like, "What are we going to do with this thing?" Having those systems in place can be really helpful especially if you have virtual team members because then it makes a lot of difference for everybody to be on the same page. Gwenn: People, historically, have thought like, "Oh, were going to do all these planning and then we'll tell them later what we planned." But I recommend having the virtual team members in on all of those meetings. Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: Here's one tip that has really helped us. We have the three customer service agents. Every morning at 10 o'clock they meet with the Operations Manager and just say, "Oh, this person is out of the office today. They have a dentist appointment at 2:00 PM and it's whoever's birthday. Our swing thought for the day is people can hear you smile. In the call monitoring, I've noticed that there's not been so much smiling on there, so let's keep that in mind for today. Today's contest for online reviews, we’re still giving $50 certificates to anyone who gets an online review." Whatever you have going on and just touching base for 10 minutes a day makes all the difference for someone whose remote. When you have your weekly EOS meeting, include them and what you're talking about. If they feel included in the process and in your mission, people don't leave. We've had the same employees at Wistar Group for six, eight, I think, is it nine years. I think we have two employees who've been with us for nine years. Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: That's the key to getting the virtual or the remote members totally immersed in your culture. Jason: Yeah. They need to be a part of it, ironically, right? Gwenn: Absolutely. Jason: Yeah. I'm a big proponent of making sure that your team members are involved in outcomes instead of being micromanaged. Give them outcomes and let them innovate and you'll be surprised with what they can come up with. It might not be the way you would do it, it might be better. A lot of times, as entrepreneurs, we think we have it all figured out. We need to tell our team members, "Here are the steps. Do this exactly this way." When it comes to goal setting, goals are outcomes. Assign an outcome to somebody, let them own it, and I think you'll be surprised at the results they can create. Getting your team all involved in it, some of those meetings have been really eye opening for me because I had my set of ideas. I thought this is how the whole world looks and then I went around and asked my team members, "Here's this outcome. What ideas you guys have that can do it?" My graphic designer has a totally different idea than I would have. My head of fulfillment has totally different ideas than I would have. They bring this perspective and all these ideas were really good. I'm like, "Yes. We should do that, maybe not that, that one's great." I think you don't want to be the emperor with no clothes running a company. That's how you do that, is by allowing your team members to have a voice and be involved in the process. Gwenn: I love that. Actually, we teach a version of that on the first day of training. Its form this article that you can get on the internet called Who's Got the Monkey. Jason: Okay. Gwen: It's the number one reprinted article from the Harvard Business Review of all time. I only came across it out of massive failure years ago. Where I took my team members out to lunch and I thought they would tell me how much they love their job and they were like, "No! We don't love it. You guys never listen to us." I was like, "What?" They're like, "Yeah. We don't even bring up ideas to you anymore because you are never going to listen to them anyway." I was like, "Oh my god. This is terrible." I found the article on the internet and we came and have a change management process. We asked our team members to own their ideas. The first steps are people come to meeting and say, "Hey, not all ideas are good ideas, but here's my idea." That allows people to save face and be vulnerable and say what they're afraid to say in the meeting. Then they have to bring everything to the meeting—the subsequent meetings—to move the idea forward... Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: ...so that the decision maker can just say yay or nay. Sometimes, there's a little homework on the decision maker’s part, but we try to make it as minimal as possible. I take it from sale, in sales people are always eternally optimistic and they think everything's going to close. My way of determining if it's going to actually close or not is, "Is your name on the prospect’s calendar for another meeting? If it's not, then your deal is dead." Just black and white. Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: If it's not there, you can revive it, but you better get a meeting out there. Same thing with ideas, "If your name in this meeting is not on anyone else's calendar, your idea’s dead." Just know that because when people feel badly about their job, when they get vulnerable, they say it and their manager is like, "Oh, that's a great idea," and then they wait three months and nothing happens to it, that really hurts morale. Giving them the honest, "Hey, it’s not moving forward if there's not a meeting" Jason: Yeah. Gwenn: And having them own that helps give them agency over their idea. Jason: Yeah, I love it. Cool. Let's wrap this up, Gwenn. I think this has been really helpful. I think we talked about some really cool ideas. I think, hopefully, some listeners are a little bit more open to having some team members that are not sitting in their physical office. How can people get in touch with you if they are interested in learning more? Gwenn: Well, I'm on Facebook. If you want to send me a message at Gwenn W. Aspen, I'd love to meet you there. Additionally, we have a website anequim.net and you can fill out a form, we'll get right back to you there, or you can email me at gaspen@anequim.net. But we love to help people, and like I said, if you just want to bounce ideas off whether this is a good idea or not, we can talk about your specific situation. Jason: Awesome. Gwenn, thank you so much for coming into this show. Gwenn: Thank you, Jason. It's been so fun. I really appreciate you having me. Jason: Alright. We'll let you go now. Alright. Bye, Gwenn. Gwenn: Bye. Jason: So, there you have it. Check them out at anequim.net. For those that are listening for the first time or checking us out, we really appreciate you subscribing. If you’re listening on YouTube or watching on YouTube or listening on iTunes, we would appreciate—if you are on iTunes—you give us your feedback. We would love to hear your real and raw feedback. Again, give us a review on there. It will be really helpful especially if you liked the show. We would love that, that gets us excited. Then make sure you get inside our community which is doorgrowclub.com. This is a Facebook group where you get to hang out with other property management entrepreneurs, all the Door Grow Hackers, connect with us, and see future episodes. We livestream these episodes into that group so you won't miss a beat. Check us out there at doorgrowclub.com. If you are interested in growing your business then reach out to us doorgrow.com. We would love to help you and see if we can help you grow your business. Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth.

A great deal of the businesses we sell at Quiet Light are founded by entrepreneurs looking for the rush of finding the next thing. Sometimes they look to sell because of burnout and sometimes it's just boredom. Today's guest's business is designed to help entrepreneurs really question the goal of the businesses they run. Jason Zook earned social media fame and experienced that burnout while on his first entrepreneurial ride after walking away from his day job. For five years Jason ran IWearYourShirt, creating thousands of videos, photos, posts on social media, and had countless media outlets talking about IWYS during the early days of social media marketing. At some point, Jason realized he had almost created a self-made work prison for himself. He and his creative wife started their company to guide owners towards financial freedom and a business they actually want to work on. Jason's focus is now on working to live rather than living to work. He strives for entrepreneurship with a healthy balance. Episode Highlights: The backstory on Jason's current company, Wandering Aimfully. Why the t-shirt business had to end. The things Jason learned from that business and his subsequent years of starting and growing companies. How Jason and his wife formulated the idea for the business. The importance of setting a mark and working towards it. What the “enough” number means to Jason and his wife. How to create the balance between getting ahead and falling behind. How that balance applies to the business creep that can often take over work-life balance. Ways Wandering Aimfully helps people build their business impactfully based on what they need, How Jason uses challenges to create habits. Transcription: Joe: Most of the businesses that we sell Mark … well maybe not most but a great deal of them are businesses where someone bootstrapped it, put all their energies into it, got it up to a certain level, and then looked around and thought “man, this is kind of work now I'm not loving this day to day anymore; I'm not happy with this challenge and I'm getting burnt out”. It happened to me. I had a cushy gig, I was working 20 hours a week, easy business, recurring revenue, and I looked around and said this isn't fulfilling me, I'm burnt out I need to move on. A lot of buyers that are from the corporate world don't understand that. Those people that are in the entrepreneurial world know that they need that new challenge, that exciting challenge. And as I understand it you had Jason Zook on the podcast; a husband and wife team actually and they talked about working to live not living to work and trying to overcome that burnout challenge. Mark: Yeah, Jason got completely burnt out with one of his 1st businesses and one of his 1st businesses; really simple concept, he would wear a t- shirt that was a sponsor. It would be their company on the t-shirt and he would wear a t- shirt every single day and put up a YouTube video of that and the prices increased every single day for that sponsorship. And so as he put it he said I was doing daily videos before Casey Neistat made that cool to publish daily videos on YouTube. He said it was great initially and he was making money by just wearing t-shirts and having people follow him around with cameras. But then this organization grew and it grew more and more and his whole life every single day was being documented and he built this prison. And I think as entrepreneurs a lot of us can relate with this idea that you build prisons sometimes for yourselves with the businesses that we've built. And so he naturally got completely burned out on that and now his whole focus and life as entrepreneurship but with a healthy balance in that life and understanding what are the real goals of your life. What do you really need and why are you doing what you're doing? And I think these are really important lessons for all of us just to keep in mind and have as a focus when we're pushing that entrepreneurialism envelope like why are we pushing growth, why are we adding this new feature to our business, and really understand what is our goal as an entrepreneur? Maybe you want to be a billionaire and if that's your goal all right then go for it but I think most of us get into this entrepreneurship game for the lifestyle. We get into it for the freedom. We get into it to be able to do what we want to do by our own rules. So are we actually doing that? Are you doing that? And is what you're doing fulfilling you today? So this whole podcast … Jason is somebody that I did not know before this podcast. He and I had never talked before and … just a fascinating guy, an absolutely magnetic personality so I'm excited to share this interview with everyone today. Joe: I don't think we can have enough people on the podcast talking about work life balance. We had Ezra Firestone; Ezra's got a staff of 25 or 30 VA's working all over the world and his work life balance is his primary focus. He and his wife they've got a certain lifestyle that they want to live and he is growing the business but at the same time making sure everybody within the business understands that work life balance. So I'm excited to hear what Jason has to say, it's always interesting to hear somebodies approach in what they do on a day to day basis. Let's go right to it. Mark: Jason, I'm super excited to have you on the podcast. Thank you for agreeing to come on here based off a completely cold and random e-mail that I sent to you. Jason: It was a good cold and random e-mail. As someone who has sent thousands of cold and random e-mails in my time as an entrepreneur, it was a good one. You didn't just kind of like lay out exactly what you wanted, you were kind, you were nice, you really presented yourself well and I was like yeah I'll say yes to this interview. I have no idea who you are, we're meeting for the 1st time in this conversation which I think is fun. Mark: Yeah absolutely and I'll tell you why I wanted to have you on the podcast. I think I said it in an intro e-mail that I sent to you. But on your website, you and your wife have a phrase on there and it's actually one of the core values that I consider my company Quiet Light Brokerage to have and that is that we work so that we can live we don't live so that we can work. This idea that hey we're entrepreneurs, we get obsessed, we love the grind, we like that sort of thing but at a certain point it's got to have something else beyond just the work itself; right? Jason: Yeah. Mark: I would love to get your story, have you share your story real quick with the listeners as to how you kind of came about this with Wandering Aimfully and this new mission that you and your wife have. Jason: Yeah sure. My entrepreneurial journey actually started kind of way late in life for a lot of people who are entrepreneurs like had lemonade stands and they like went door to door and did all those things and started businesses super early; I didn't. I started my 1st business when I was 27 on a whim after leaving a full time job that I in all essence liked it just was a very boring job and I didn't see a lot of potential for myself there. And I really felt this drive and this pull to do something better and something else. I started my own design company. It was just two people and from there I had this kind of crazy idea to get paid to wear t-shirts for a living for no reason whatsoever other than I just thought social media is kind of growing. This was 2008, 2009 I just … I don't know there was just something about it that seemed interesting to me and it struck me one day when I was literally standing in my closet looking at all these clothes that I had paid brands to own and then walk around and kind of schlep and promote. I was like wait why am I doing this? This is so weird. Could someone just pay me to wear their shirt? So that idea did not take off. I launched a website called iwearyourshirt.com five people showed up on the 1st day. I think three of them were my grandmother like refreshing the page, no joke. And then I really had to start doing the entrepreneurial kind of hustle and sprint that we all do to get things started. I was e-mailing friends and family and I was getting on Twitter and jumping in conversations back when Twitter wasn't just a barrage of political nightmare that it is now and that's not to say there's not some still good stuff on Twitter but this was 2008 so it's very different; a very small community. And yeah that idea just kind of took off on its own after a lot of hard work putting in a daily YouTube video. So I recorded 889 videos straight every single day before vlogging was a thing before Casey Neistat was recording videos and we were all watching them and loving them all I was making really terrible videos every day. But yeah that led into a couple of different ventures along the way. I created a software company to help people build and sell online courses because I wanted to build and sell online courses I just wasn't a good one at the time, a couple of other little random things and then yeah just a couple of weird different changes and ebbs and flows. My wife actually worked for my I Wear Your Shirt business and when that had to shut down in 2013 after 5 years she was kind of left with like I don't wanna go back to the nine to five world, I'm going to start my own business as well and so she started a business. So we kind of worked like 12 feet from each other but we always chatted and then we kind of came back together this past year on this Wandering Aimfully project. Mark: So why did the t-shirt business has to end? Jason: So many factors that we can dive into, I'll lay down on the couch and we can talk about them all. Truthfully it was my 1st business and I think so many people can resonate when you start your 1st business you don't know what you don't know. And I didn't know about managing people, I didn't know about managing money, the pricing scheme of I Wear Your Shirt was very poorly designed for paying people at a consistent salary. So the 1st year it was just myself and it was a dollar on the 1st day, $2 in the 2nd day, $3 in the 3rd day and so that pricing scheme is cool because it's so low barrier entry in the beginning and towards the end of the year once you build momentum it makes sense and it adds up. It made $66,795 in the 1st year which is really cool. But when you have five employees as I grew the company too because I thought I had to scale up, I thought I had to grow, I'm reading and watching all of the things that we're all reading and watching and I'm thinking that's what I have to do. I ended up having $30,000 in salary in January when my business only made $800. That doesn't work out well and so it was just a lot of those things where I just was so new to things; we had billables, we were printing all of the t-shirts through an outsourced printing service. I didn't know about just like paying invoices and all those things and so I got very back on bills and I actually built up a $100,000 in debt not overnight but in about a year and a half and it just it was so crazy to me because Mark it went from I was making almost $100,000 with literally no expenses, literally getting e-mails from PayPal like “hey there's a $100,000 in your PayPal account what's going on” to people e-mailing me and going “hey what's going on you can't pay your bills or you're 30 days late in your bills”. And so eventually I just saw the writing on the wall and I was just like this isn't sustainable. I tried this thing, it kind of grabbed its moment in time in social media and the landscape of it and I just wanted to move on to other things plus I really overworked myself every single day running the business, wearing a shirt, managing people, doing all of the marketing and sales and interviews and things. It was just time at the end of five years to move on. Mark: Five years is a long time to be wearing other people's shirts. Jason: And I'm still wearing other people's shirts if you think about it I'm just not talking about them at all. And almost none of them have a brand name on them because I'm just so burnt out from that. But yeah I actually don't regret any of it. I think I learned so many unbelievably important valuable lessons that I continue to use to this day in everything that I do. So while it ended not on a wonderful note and I don't feel like I have like this crazy awesome success story I also have a really relatable story that so many business owners can kind of stand behind me or stand with me and go “yeah my 1st business didn't do well either or my 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th it fizzled out or I didn't manage it properly” and you just learn from those experiences and you kind of take those with you and you kind of take your lumps and move forward. Mark: Yeah you know I would disagree I actually think the idea that you were able to take something as simple as wearing a t-shirt and having somebody paying for that and turning that into something that actually generated revenue is pretty remarkable. Now obviously is it sustainable, eventually, you're going to run into the problem that you ran into which is I don't want to wear your shirt anymore and I don't want to be on TV … have a video done every day and everything else that you ran into. You said something in there in that story that you were reading and listening to what everybody else was reading and listening to, there's a sort of like momentum that's out there in the business community where there is this almost like a psych guy stuff here's what you should be doing and it's all towards drive, drive, drive, grind, grow, expand, and all this sort of stuff. What are some of the things you've learned over the years with all the different ventures that you've been in about listening to that or not listening to it? Jason: The 1st one is more money more problems and as silly and as dumb as that sounds it's true. I mean it's just I don't know any business owners that have taken their business from one level to another level whatever that means and not encountered so much more work, so much more stress, so much more all of the things. And I saw that with myself like in that 1st year of I Wear Your Shirt I was making almost $100,000 because I had some other sponsorship stuff in there. There was literally almost no stress. I mean the daily creativity and all the things I had to do was a lot of work but in the 3rd year of I Wear Your Shirt when I had five employees, we had five sponsors per day, we made almost $600,000 that year; I was so much stressed. It was a nightmare almost. And I'll tell you I made $30,000 that year. I got paid the least as the person who was doing the most. And I think so many people can relate to that and so I just saw all of these things that I was latching onto of like I wanted a million dollar business what does that mean? I wanted this big house, why? I don't need a big house, I actually like having a small place where I know where everything is and I don't have a lot of stuff. And so I really just started to look at a lot of these different values that I was buying into or believing into especially the ones that society puts pressure on you and when you read Entrepreneur.com, or Business Insider, or Forbes, or whatever you're reading we all read these stories of millions and billions and all this stuff. It's like where are the people who are just making $100,000 or a couple $100,000 or $50,000 that are super happy? And it's because those stories don't sell. Those headlines don't get clicked and I really just started to reevaluate all these decisions and it was through a lot of conversations with my wife and we just kept saying this phrase what is it all for? Like what is all of the work for, what is all of the time for, what is all the energy being put into this for if at the end of a day or the end of a week or a month or a year you're so tired and you don't enjoy the life you've created? Why are we doing that? I should just go get a nine to five job at Target and clock in and clock out and leave and that's it like I don't even think about it. And so I do think there's just a lot of misnomers that go on with this like buying into up into the right mentality and you should always be growing and social media landscape can change so you got to grab all the Facebook advertising stuff you can do. It's like no you don't have to do that. You build the business around the life that you want and you really figure out what that means to you and I think that's so personal and subjective to everybody that's starting a business. Mark: At what moment of your life did you really start to formulate that when you and your wife were thinking what are the values that we actually want to have? Because look I agree with you 100%, this idea of I want a million dollar business and once I get a million dollar business I want a 10 million dollar business. When I talk to some of our clients, some of the people that are preparing to sell and I ask them what are your goals, why are you thinking about selling? Because one of the things that I try and impress especially on sellers … I'll tell you a quick story here; the 1st client that I worked with, a good friend of mine he had a company and he came in and said “Hey would you help me sell my business?” Well this is how Quiet Light Brokerage started and I went through the process, we got it sold. I won't say exactly for how much but you know what he was in financial trouble just a couple of years later. He gave up a lifestyle business for a big pile of cash today thinking this is going to set me free only to find out that he was back in the grind that he was in before. And so I'm curious from your standpoint what was it where you started to question that up until right mentality and same maybe it's on up into the right maybe it's whatever is right in front of me today? Jason: Yeah it's funny I get chills because I think back to the exact moment. I was in Fargo, North Dakota speaking at a very small conference called Misfit Con; they don't even do it anymore. And this is like literally 120 people and I was a speaker. No one knew who the speakers were so it's just a group of us sitting in this really cool yoga studio actually kind of converted into this space. A guy stepped on stage and he had well-coiffed hair and he had skinny jeans and he had really nice boots and I'm like this guy's going to tell me all the secrets that I need to know to succeed. And he started telling the story and it was eerily similar to mine of trying to grow, being focused on the money, the big house, the things, the stuff and I come to find out that was Joshua Fields Millburn of The Minimalists and his story was so akin to mine. And then when he started talking about these specific values and these specific things and really questioning all of the stuff that we buy into both societal and personal and these things it really hit me. It hit me hard sitting there and I remember sitting with my wife at the time just looking at her and going like uh-oh we got to rethink everything. And I think I spoke like two or three spaces after him and I just remember spilling my guts about how everything wasn't perfect at the time for my I Wear Your Shirt business and yet I was there to talk about this is a business that was supposedly doing so well. And that flight home after that conference we basically sat down and were just like what do we actually need to live? What do we want our lives to look like? Then those questions are so big and they're so heavy and they're scary because you tend to find yourself thinking well if I'm going to make a decision that's the decision forever. That's just not true. It can be a decision for the next three months, six months, a year, two years, five years, whatever it is and we've changed so much in that time since that conversation; that was 2012, 2013 and it's just been really big for us too at every turn and every opportunity where we can do more or we can sell more or make more is to ask ourselves hold on what is this going to add to our plate. And just like your story with the client that you worked with I find that question to be so interesting to me, I was like if I sell a business or anything I'm a part of, like I have a software company, the online course business, like if I sold that business and I made X amount of money from it what would I do with that time? I like working on that business. I actually enjoy it and I want to invest in it and so if I just sold it for a small chunk of cash which is a sizable chunk of cash, in a long term it's not really that big of a chunk of cash I'm going to have to start over. And I think we see that with so many people and you suppose this way more than I do but so many people sell a business that they actually enjoyed working on only to then find themselves a couple of months or years later bored out of their minds wishing they had something that fulfilled them to work on every day. And that for me is kind of where this comes from too of like I want to make enough money that we don't have to think about money and truthfully we're not there yet. We don't make enough money every month. We were just like we don't care about money but we've set what mark looks like and we're working toward that mark. We call that our enough number and once we hit that number we're just going to stop trying to make money. And you are going to have to fill in gaps [inaudible 00:08:45.1] we have a lot of monthly recurring business stuff. And so it's always going to be a game to just kind of stay around that enough number but I love the work that I'm doing so I'm happy to do that. Mark: How would you balance out the difference between … I think there's two motivations for working hard, right? One is to get ahead the other one is to not fall behind. Jason: Yeah. Mark: Because oftentimes in business I've seen it some of our clients that come to us with distressed businesses where they got to that enough number or probably more than enough and then they're like I made it and then they relaxed and then a year later they're thinking oh my gosh my business just completely fell apart underneath me. How would you approach that in your own life when you get to that stage of having enough to make sure that you're also not necessarily falling behind? Jason: Yeah I think it really depends on your lifestyle and I think lifestyle creep is such an interesting idea that we all run into and just like you started saying earlier it's like well you create a million dollar business and then you want to make a 10 million dollar business or even just a two million dollar business and the reason that that tends to happen is not because you need that money, you don't need the money, it's that you go oh well now I can afford this and so now I'm going to … I need more money to kind of balance that out. And so I think for Caroline and myself, my wife, we really just started to try and define what are the things that we love and want in life and if we don't have those now what does it actually take to get those things? And to really put a price tag on those and then to question those things and to go … for one thing for us has been looking at buying or building a dream home and for most people, that's in like the millions of dollars. For us, I think we could actually do it for a couple hundred thousand dollars. Like we just want a 1200 square foot cool modern pretty fab place and we keep going through the effort of that and just going you know what though the cash that it would take up from for it, the time and stress to deal with everybody building all the things right now in our lives it just doesn't fit. And it may be something we do down the road but it just is not … I don't want to creep into that and have that completely change our life. So to answer your question I really think it's about checking in constantly with the things that matter to you and then really questioning every single one of those things and just going like do I need more money to do this or do I just need to change something in my life or change something in the way that I operate because I kind of … I tend to find for myself at least like flexibility and control of my time is the number one thing I want. Of course, I want more money in the bank but if I can make a little bit less money and have a little bit more time because I'm not working to make more money I'm happier because I can then choose my schedule every single day of my life. I don't have to give up and sacrifice things at the whim of making money and that to me becomes a really important discussion to constantly be having with yourself and thinking about. Because just like you said with that client you can reach your enough number and then just fall back and go okay I'm good like I don't have to do anything anymore and it's like yeah but that's not how business works. You just don't get to a finish line and then you're done and you won the race. You kind of have to stay in the race at a certain point and you find that pace that you can kind of go at that makes sense with you. Mark: Yeah I think something that's interesting with business as well because you talk about lifestyle creep and that's obviously a problem. I think anybody can relate with that but there's also business lifestyle creep that I've found where when you start up a new business some of it … a lot of it is bootstrapping, you're going out there and you're figuring out how am I going to make this business work with whatever little money I have and then you get that client they pay you less money and like awesome I can now pay for ads. It how you start paying for ads, you have an ad budget and then you hire a few employees and now have those employee … the next thing you know your monthly budget is ramping up and you have the added stress of I got to keep layering on more and more revenue to be able to cover this monthly budget as well. I think it's an interesting concept to say core value is both for the business core value is also for yourself and keep reminding yourself of those core values in order to stay true to that and have a balanced life. That's what you question, just kind of riffing on what you're saying there. Jason: No and I do think it's a really valid one because we've thought about that. My wife and I, we live and work at home so where we would have a dining room table we have our desks and it's been that way for the past six years, five years something like that. And for a lot of people that would probably be the worst thing ever. They'd be like oh I don't want to look at my work I want to be completely separate so I need an office or I need a studio or whatever. And so I do think there are some decisions you could make for your business being separate from your life if that really matters to you. For us we run very creative businesses, we love the community that we built so I don't hate my e-mail inbox. I don't loathe looking at these things so for us it is such a blend and lifestyle career business creep for us would potentially be like oh we want like a really cool office base like we've talked about this before. And it's like yeah but we have that in our home it's just not a full dedicated space and we don't actually need that. So it's continuing to come back to that and then honestly I think a big part of it too is not watching all of the videos and reading all the stories of the cool office spaces. Because then you just get stuck in that mode of like oh yeah but I really want a ping pong table and the full living wall and it's like I don't need that. That's just a cool thing and I can appreciate someone else having that. Mark: I do want to nap pad. I'm just going to say it like I want a nap pad in my office because that would be awesome. I've got a glass door you can actually see it. If you're listening in your car you can't see it of course but I have a glass door behind me so I can't really take naps in my office. Let's talk a little bit about your community. I love what you guys are doing with the community over at WanderingAimfully.com. Tell me a little bit about it and who it's targeted towards and what the whole purpose of this is. Jason: Yeah I think it's a really good question of who it's targeted toward because when we started to blend Caroline and mines two businesses together in March of 2018 … and actually the conversation started many months before that. We weren't sure who to target because her business was targeted to soulful creatives which is kind of general in a way and my business was targeted to business owners who just want to get better at taking action. Again very general audience it's not like stay home moms who love to cook vegan meals. It's like it's not as focused as it could be. And so when we started Wandering Aimfully it was very generic of like independent creative business owners and that's designers, musicians, artists, [inaudible 00:24:57.5] and we really found that it was tough to get people to identify of like hey I'm raising my hand I fit within Wandering Aimfully. They kind of felt like they did but it just wasn't kind of niche enough if you will. And so in the past couple of months we really decided to hone in further on okay who have we attracted over the years that we've made the most impact for? And what we found is that that's service based business owners or like client based business owners; so that is your designers, that's your developers, that's your coaches, that's people who have clients and that they want to move away from selling their time one on one to building digital product businesses. So it's having online courses, books, workshops, membership communities of their own whatever that is. And we went back to the root of what did we do when we were getting started and that's exactly what we did. We were service based business owners and we wanted to stop trading our time for money and we want to try and reach more people and make more of an impact based on what we had learned and experienced. And so now that's essentially who Wandering Aimfully is for and there are some fringe benefits to people who are not those people but if you run a service business and you want to transition into selling digital products we're the perfect community for you because we ourselves have had that exact experience. We know exactly how to help you. We built now a six months program that helps people really do that without burning out because we just decided the people need to slow the hell down and not try and transition their entire business in 24 to 48 hours or a couple of weeks. And it's been really interesting to shift the focus on this is exactly who we are for and it's a smaller audience and you have people who self-identify much faster than we did before where people are like I don't know if it's right for me it's like now they know that it's right for them and then for everybody else they can still kind of try and figure out if it's right for them but we can now more clearly identify. Mark: That's pretty cool. I've kind of poked around through your website and you guys have all sorts of prepackaged courses and checklists and everything else. One thing I love about this and I can relate with buyers who are acquiring a new business or anyone growing a business as well you get into something and there's a sense of I've got to be doing all the things all right now. I got to have my Facebook marketing strategy, do some CRO, get an Instagram account going because it doesn't have that and it's this long list of things and you're going to just kill yourself in trying to do that. What you guys have through this community, I saw you have a bunch of checklists and action plans for some pretty normal things that a lot of different companies are going to have to deal with as well. And it seems like the entire goal and correct me if I'm wrong but the entire goal is just that breaking up these projects into bite sized pieces. Jason: Yeah absolutely and we just want to help people navigate. Like you said when someone is running a business or starting a business or making that transition from clients to products there's a lot that can be done and really what we try and do because it's what we've done for ourselves is to identify what do you need to do. Like what is actually going to make an impact? Because for so many people a Facebook ad campaign or an Instagram account is not at all what they should be focusing on. What they should be focusing on is creating some type of really valuable content that can be searched for on the internet because Google is still the number one place that people go on the internet and that is not going to change for quite a while. And so we've just seen through a lot of experience that people want the shiny new and fancy and we've been there as well, we've been one of those things too but you find that they actually don't make that big of an impact on your business and it's a lot of time spent without a lot of return. And listen I'm all for branding, I'm all for hitting the word out about your business and going where people's attention is but I think that there's a lot to be said for having a good foundation for your business, making sure that your ducks are in a row and so much and you probably see this so often is as business owners a lot of times we don't even know the basics of expenses and cash flow and I know that stuff can sound really silly to people like oh how do you not know that? It's because it's different for every business. So what we're taught about how to run a business may not be applicable to the business we actually create and start. And so I think that so much of that we've seen is just trying to help people navigate their own journey based on our experiences, experiences of community members, identifying bigger tasks like you said that people want to do like if you want to start a podcast that's a pretty big task. There's a lot of things that go into that that you don't see and so we've broken it down. I think it's in like I don't know … I want to say less than 100 steps and that sounds like a ton but some of the steps are like name your podcast step cool, check it off the list. But it gives you this incredible bite sized thing and people find it so helpful to just have this list to be able to like yes I did that, yes I did that, and go through and knock it all out as opposed to having to think of everything themselves. Mark: Yeah it reminds me of a couple of other episodes that we did here at the Quiet Light Podcast. One was with Bjork Ostrom who owns Food Blogger Pro and a few other pretty big food blogs and he talked a lot about … he's grown that company from nothing into a significant enterprise and he talked a lot about this idea of I'm not going to try and double my business tomorrow. I'm going to try and have this single daily marginal improvement and the compound in effect of this on a day to day basis. The other person … you talked about going back to the basics and focusing on those things that really work well the person you're agreeing with right now Babak Azad who grew Beach Body into a billion dollar business that was on the podcast and he told me … he said people are focusing on way too many advertising channels. He said that you should really be focusing on just a few; probably one, maybe two because if you're focusing on six that means you're not doing any of them well. You've got to focus on those basics so I think that's fantastic advice. Okay, I'm going to round this out with a final question here for you and this is really the content on your site. I absolutely love … I've always liked this kind of I'm doing this productivity experiment or just whatever sort of experiment. Jason: Yeah. Mark: You recently rode a stationary bike at your standing desk for 30 days and I haven't read how it finishes out but how did that go? Jason: Cliff hanger, okay, so the reason why I did this experiment … why I love doing 30 day challenges specifically is because it's just like you said with like you do these little daily things that can add up and incrementally make a big change or make a big impact. And it's hard to change, it's hard to build habits, it's hard to do those things and I highly recommend a book Atomic Habits by James Clear; a friend of mine and just a super smart guy when it comes out. So if anybody is like I'm bad at habits James will help you, that book is really great. But for me, I just always like breaking these things down into 30 day challenges. So to round this out I rode a stationary bike at my standing desk every single day for 30 days. I just wanted to know could I get a little bit of exercise every day because I'm just at my desk. I didn't want to sit at my desk and do those things and I ended up burning 18,339 calories in 30 days. It's insane. And I wrote this at the end of the thing and I talked about this in the video that I kind of recapped and put it all together it did not feel like I was working out. It felt like I was sitting at my desk very slowly methodically riding this bike while doing e-mails and bunch of other admin tasks and the average amount of time that I rode the bike a day was one hour. It didn't feel like I was riding an hour because I would break it up into different chunks throughout the day. I rode an average of 25 miles a day and at the end of it my pants fit better, I had more energy every day, and it really became a good solid habit for me. So it was super … just a weird random thing I wanted to do but now like I still have the bike we're now a couple of weeks after that I've finished up I'm still riding it. It's great. My wife is starting to ride it and it's just one of those things that's like challenge yourself to do something for 30 days that you might think is weird or out there are different and see what kind of tangible result you get cumulatively over the time and you might realize like wow yeah in a couple of days of course I didn't get like six pack abs from riding this bike but I think if I do this for six months I'm probably going to be in a better shape than I would have been than just if I'd continue doing at the gym and eating better and all those things. Mark: That's fantastic. I absolutely love everything that you guys stand for. I think it's so easy for all of us entrepreneurs to build businesses but at the same time build little prisons for ourselves as well because we get so driven by productivity when we worship at that altar and then also by just having more and more and more instead of thinking about like you said at the beginning that focus on the goals and ask yourself a question and I'm encouraging everyone listening that's thinking about buying a business or maybe you want to sell the business or you're building something right now to ask those questions; why, for what, what are your goals, what are your values, what do you value in life, a really good advice. Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Great chatting with you. Mark: Thanks for having … thanks for coming on I should say. Way to end that professionally. Alright, thanks for having … for coming on Jason. Jason: Yeah no problem.   Links and Resources: https://wanderingaimfully.com/ Atomic Habit

Are you sure your kitchen table or big-screen TV will fit? If you’re interested in renting or buying a specific property, there’s a few steps to take before actually visiting it. Watch a virtual tour video and get pre-qualified. Today, I am talking with Michael Sanz of Neesh Property, which started in 2009 and has more than 650 doors. We discuss the benefits of automating property showings, including the opportunity to spend more time with people and to travel. Who wouldn’t want to operate a property management business from beaches around the world? You’ll Learn... [02:25] Purpose of Neesh Property: Holistic real estate that helps people buy, sell, rent, and arrange financing. [03:20] Same Startup Suffering: Michael struggled to start a business, grow new doors, and retain customers. [03:37] Identify and Prevent Problems: Michael controls and protects his business and simplifies his life through systemization and automation. [05:45] Workforce Reduction: Michael went from 18 to 1½ staff members and replaced them with property management software to save money. [07:58] Eliminate Office Space: Doesn’t affect how you do business. [09:43] Competitive Advantage: Neesh Property closes deals and acquires new business by leasing properties quickly. [10:30] Retain Relationships: Be client-focused, not location-focused when managing properties. [12:40] Learn from Mistakes: Try and implement new things, which may or may not work completely; pivot when necessary. [14:29] What’s the problem? Any problem, big or small, should be documented and automated to disappear. [16:10] Build Knowledge Base: Take time to make “how-to, what to do...” videos, recordings, and other visuals to help people understand processes/procedures. [21:05] Leverage People as Process: Create core team of people who are thinkers and decision-makers. [27:38] Virtual Tour Stats: Neesh Property gets over 85% of its real estate booked based on the virtual platform and averages 1.8 showings per property. [31:05] Good Tenants Gone Bad: Rather than giving best to the bad, give it to the best of everyone; mesh type of tenant to property. [50:55] Common Beginner Pitfall: You don’t need to be cheaper than everybody else to get started and compete; change your value proposition. Tweetables Save Money: Replace staff members with property management software. Be client-focused, not location-focused. Meaningful Connections/Conversations: The rest just falls into place; it’s all systems. Automation offers the opportunity to simplify your life and spend more time with people. Resources Neesh Property Michael Sanz on Facebook Ricoh 360 Camera Matterport: 3D Camera and Virtual Tour Platform Vieweet Skype Zoom Housecraft GatherKudos Oculus Rift DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. I am welcoming all the way from across the pond or even further maybe, Michael Sanz of Neesh Property Management. Michael, welcome to the show. Michael: Thank you very much for having me. Jason: I’m excited to have you. You’re a really cool guy. I got to connect with you in the past in person, which was great to meet you in person, and you’ve done some really cool things. But before we get into some of that, and today’s topic for those listening, is automating property showings. We’re going to be talking about that. But before we get into that, why don’t you give people a little bit of background on you and let everyone know why I think you’re so awesome. Michael: Thanks for the introduction and thanks for having me at the conference in Missouri last year. It was amazing. Perfect. As Jason said, I’m Michael Sanz. I am from Australia, from Melbourne, and I have a company called Neesh Property Residential that has been going since 2009, has over 650 doors. I started how everybody else started out in real estate and started from zero, or how much people started, started from zero doors. I had a new relationship started at the time. Add the pressure and the stress of a new relationship coming into a new business, setting all that up. I started from the study nook in an apartment that I had. I had left a previous business. It was quite a successful business. Left the partnership at the time and I started Neesh Property. What was Neesh Property to me? It was a holistic real estate that help people buy property, sell property, rent property, and arrange the finance. It’s holistic all under one roof. I had suffered the same problems everybody else has suffered from starting a business, trying to grow new doors, I guess retain business when people sell their properties or go to other agencies. I spent a lot of time methodically going through all the pros and cons of a property management business and I really started to systemize it, automate it, and not let the business control me from an early point, but how I could control my real estate business and what protections I could put in place to make sure that I could do some hyper growth, retain the customers that I had, and simplify life. A lot of people that know me would have say that I will operate Neesh Property from many beaches around the world. I would close down the company every Christmas time for two months. In real estate, people say, “That’s unheard of. What about maintenance? What about all the problems?” But I identified all these problems and I’ve been out of able to do a lot of travel, and I’ve spend a lot of family time while automating the business. Jason, as you’re talking about today, automating how I show properties and really break down that process meant that I could be in Missouri and show people property before I went on stage, after I went on stage, and successfully lease property without really having to do anything at all. Jason: This is wild. I think everybody listening goes, “Michael’s some sort of crazy, weird robot. This is some magical impossible thing. Nobody else can do this.” You’re maybe some sort of savant or guru. But you started your business and from the beginning had this intention of systemizing things and keeping things off your plate to keep that space, and some people, their intentions and focus is very different. They build a business that’s very difficult to manage and to run. Paint a picture. You’ve got 650 doors right now, I think you’ve said, right? Michael: I just sold a bulk of that and I’ve got Neesh Property. I’ve automated even more with a new portfolio, but that’s for a whole other conversation. Jason: Help people understand your business logistically. How many team members do you have? I think this is where it really showcases how different your business is than most companies that are at a similar size. Michael: Sure. At a point with the business, we had about 18 staff members. We had acquired another smaller business, and we acquired their team, and we had an office. A lot of which goes against the grain having office to me. But when I acquired another business, I took the office and it had a receptionist, it had a business development person, it had an account, they had all these people there. I couldn’t see, with total respect to their role, I couldn’t see the purpose of it, so I knocked them down from 18 down to 1½ staff members. One full-time property manager and one part-time who did routines and edit some showings as required. Jason: Wait. So, you went from 18, bring on another company, and then you whittled that down to 1½ team members. Michael: Yeah, correct. I couldn’t see the massive need to have all these people doing accounts when a lot of the property management software already did all the reconciliation. I was just having a bum on a seat to press a button to reconcile. I couldn’t see the purpose of having a receptionist when there are people there who could answer the phone, so we put in a good IVR, a good voicemail system, and we educated. We identified that a lot of the calls that were coming in were from tenants either trying to report maintenance or [...] it was. Then we put in automated responses there, too, and if there’s any business call, “Press one if you’re a landlord, press two if it’s new business,” and then it would come through to my cell where I could answer and respond to it quite fast. Identifying the flow of calls, the type of calls that are coming through the office meant I no longer had to have a receptionist there. In Australia, the wages are quite high. We’d be paying someone $50,000–$60,000 to sit at a front desk, to greet people if they came in. We have also identified that as property change, people will less and less likely to come to an office. Tenants wouldn’t necessarily walk into the office and let’s say they did walk into the office, we would be there to greet them but no one was really walking in. Owners rarely walk into an office anymore because they could call you, they could video call you. We ended up getting rid of the office. We have spent from a big 250 square meter office place to a two-bedroom apartment, and guess what? It didn’t affect how we did business, didn’t affect us picking up new business, didn’t affect us losing any business, and the world still spins. It’s not chaos. For us identifying all these headaches we’re able to see what mattered. If the team couldn’t adapt to technology changes, video, virtual reality, automated IVR systems, and things like that, then there wasn’t really a place in the business for them, respectfully. I actually have one property manager leave to go with a company where they still did paper condition reports because that’s how she wanted to do them. Jason: Right. You’re welcome to it. That’s so funny. Okay, so this will make a lot of sense and I think you and I have both significant, nerdy, technological side to us. This stuff sounds obvious to me and maybe obvious to you, some people listening maybe not so obvious. If they have all these questions, “How would I do this? I would I do that?” It’s scary. But if you make that your intention and your goal, you’ll figure it out just like you figured out whatever you’re doing now. One of your big competitive advantages now in closing deals and in acquiring new business is your ability to lease properties so rapidly. Paint this picture of how rapidly and how different your leasing process is, just to prime the pump here. Michael: To put it into another perspective—I know we touched on it previously—we were full suburbs. We manage properties in over 84 suburbs and we also have properties in two other states, which was Sydney and New South Wales in WA. WA is a four-hour plane ride and Sydney is 1½-hour plane ride from us. Now, we weren’t insane, crazy totally. We only manage properties of the clients that we actually had on our book and we did that so that we could retain the relationship with them and we would appoint other local agents to help with open inspections or routine inspections, or things like that. And because I’m a frequent traveler, when I was in the area, I would pop in, say good day to the tenants, and just touch face that way, so the owners knew that they are getting full kind of service. In Victoria, it is very much managed by our office and again, we are client-focused and not location-focused, which was one of our main selling points and is quite attractive to landlords that we had. Because we also offered mortgage brokering, we really didn’t do too many sales, we were mainly property management and then we offered mortgage brokering we saw the value in that. If it was [...] other agents that could help us do the menial tasks. It wasn’t a headache for us, we didn’t stress about it, but we covered a lot of space. You can imagine when properties come up for rent. It’s cyclical because people [...] properties around at Christmas time, they go home to their families and their friends. We would have sometimes 10%–15% of the book would start to come up for rent and you can imagine the franticness of trying to get out all the inspections, deal with tenants, vacates, and all those headaches that came with it. Now, it’s probably 11 where I started [...] this. This wouldn’t be a problem with the spread of properties. As I sat down, I started writing down all the problems that I could have. Petrol, time on the road, who am I going to have, how many staff members I need to to do this if I’m going to have potential growth? How do I automate this? That was the biggest thing. How do I automate this? What if it’s Christmas time and I want to go away on holiday? What am I going to do? The selfishness in me also came out because I still wanted to live and being an owner-operator. What would you do? I identified with myself that if I made mistakes, that was okay because being a business owner, if we don’t try and implement the things we’re looking, that ain’t worth. But it doesn’t mean that it’s not going to work in its entirety. It might mean that you just need to pivot a little bit and change what you’ve been doing to give another go. I had to automate the whole thing and I started the journey. Jason: I’m hearing a process here and I think you’ve mentioned this twice now. For those listening, you may have caught on this but it sounds like you have this mental process that you go through probably constantly where you list out potential problems, and then you sit down and figure out what are the solutions, and then you have this intention throughout that whole process of, “How can I have vacations? How can I make sure that I don’t have to always be doing it?” Which is a very different mindset than most ppl have. They’re just figuring out, “How to do I keep the business running? How do I make sure that we don’t drop the ball?” And you’re like, “No. How can I,” as you put it, “take Christmas and not have to work? How can I go on holiday and not have to do this, and it would still work?” That’s a different problem to solve. As entrepreneurs, we’re great at solving problems. But if we don’t give ourselves the right problem to work on, our subconscious isn’t going to work on it, our brains are not going to work on it, we’re not going to find those solutions. We stop prematurely at something superficial and that’s a whole level of depth to go beyond just making sure things work, it’s making sure things work without you. Maybe just describe that. What do you actually do? Do you just pull out a piece of paper and you write all the problems? Michael: A big point when I had staff in the office is that if anyone reported any type of problem, big or small, it had to be written down. If an owner said, for example, “I can’t reach you on your mobile phone.” Or, “I don’t understand the statement,” just general questions. If someone doesn’t understand the statement, what we did was we recorded what the landlord income statement meant. “This is your name, this is the date and everything.” We do a video. We do a screenshare/screengrab video and in that was a link. If anyone asks anything about statement, it was there for them. It was in one of our FAQs. People could see it. All of a sudden, we didn’t get all these calls. We worked out any problem in the business. Someone turned out in our office at 7:00 in the morning and said, “Why aren’t you open?” We address those things, we have better signage on the front door, and then all of a sudden, all these problems that a business would have were just disappearing and it was automated. By using video, by using written text, by having window displays, just simple things, the business became automated. So much so that religiously we close before Christmas and we open up towards the end of January, so that everyone gets time off to spend time with their family. Jason: And everyone being your 1½ team members. Michael: When I had a lot of team members, they were loving it big time. If people want to go on holiday, they can go on holiday because the business can run. Jason: All right, so this is really cool. Basically, what you’re talking about is you built a knowledge base of frequently asked questions and leveraged video screen shares, recordings, showing them how to do things so they visually could see, hear, and understand what needed to happen. As they would go through these and have these questions, or you send them a link to this frequently asked questions or in your knowledge base, or you send them this video, they would watch this video. The magic of video is they would feel like you’re right there, walking them through it, tell them, they’d hear you, see you, they feel like you’re taking care of them, and you’re not even there. You did it one time and now, it can be used for 650 different people or however many clients ;that you have. They can go through it multiple times instead of just once because they may not remember. But they’ll remember, “Oh, there’s this thing I can go to to get it.” Michael: Correct. A lot of the agents who I would speak to is on video. I don’t have to speak to video where it takes time, I don’t have enough time. A lot of the videos early on that I did [...] showing or like a routine inspection or open for inspection. I would just have the camera on a tripod and while I was waiting for people to come, I would do a video. “I’m at this property here. Look at this one,” or, “This is a leaking tap. This is how we address it. This is what we do.” Just small videos and I just built up content. I had the tenants any problems, what to do if it’s raining. What to do if your hot water service breaks. What to do if your dog runs out to your next door neighbor. Just simple things I turned into a video so I didn’t have to answer again and again. Again, this is like I’ve touched on before when people could call up and they address the problem or an issue or concern, we try to turn that into a video so that it was answered once, solved 100 times. Jason: The trick is that if you’re going to have to answer ever, once, take note of it, then put it on your to-do list to make a video so you don’t ever have to answer that again. Michael: Yeah. I think as business owners we need to give ourselves the emotional permission today to take the time, even if takes us half an hour to do it, so we bank up future time. That task is going to take us a 30-minute phone call or whatever it is, we spend 30 minutes recording it now, and you’re going to have that conversation a hundred times, you just saved yourself 50 future hours and you could be doing other things. Jason: Absolutely. We have done the same thing with clients who go through our program. I used to coach them all directly, but shifting it into video content allowed me to make sure that I said the same thing and got the best information to each client, and it allowed them to watch it more than once. My memory is not so amazing that I could remember every single thing I’ve said to every single clients about every single topic and not miss something. But I could put it into content. If I get a bunch of questions, I can add more content. I think some people would say, “Jason,” or, “Michael, you guys are really lazy.” I think there’s brilliance in that. I wouldn’t call it laziness; I would call it, we don’t like doing stupid stuff over and over. I mean, really simply, and that’s really frustrating to have to do redundant work. But some people, they love that. They would just do the same thing everyday. They love doing that. That’s not me. I would guess that that’s not really you, either. You like being able to have freedom and not have to answer the same questions over and over and over again. Michael: That’s the definition of insanity, isn’t it? Doing the same thing over and over again, getting the same result. I can’t understand doing the same thing over and over. I guess as business owners, we also get caught up in the really small things, and those small things we think become really important but they’re not. I’ve got some VAs that do the really menial, small tasks that I don’t even have to think about. Things that our software doesn’t do that a VA would do. Get out of that mindset that you have to do these really small things because it’s not important and when we identified that owners and tenants just want to get that problem resolved. If it needs to get escalated, then yeah of course, take it on. But the small things, they don’t really care who answers, it’s fine. As long as it’s clear, their problem is solved, they can walk away happy, then they’re good. Don’t stress. Jason: So, part of this automation, you’re leveraging technology, you’re leveraging video, you’re leveraging a database or knowledge base of frequently asked questions but also, you are leveraging people as process. You’re bringing people almost in a position of almost operating software in some instances. And then you have a core team of people that actually are thinkers and decision-makers that’s really small based on what you said. Let’s get into then the topic at hand, which is automating property showing. How can those listening start to move towards automating property showings and what are the benefits you’ve seen by doing that? Let’s get them excited about the why they should do this first. Michael: As a business owner, having staff members and having multiple properties that would come out open for inspection and also understanding that tenants are really demanding, they want to see the property, they would call you up and say, “Is it open now? Is somebody there now? Can I go now?” And then having a staff member get in the car, drive half an hour listening to music, speaking to their family and friends, doing whatever they want to do in the car, get to the property, wait for the tenant to turn up, show them the property, have them say, “Oh, yeah. It’s nice. The walls really look like they did in the photos.” Whatever it is, or they love it and again they’ll buy for it. “Can you wait for my friend to turn up? My partner’s on their way.” All these headaches. They do the inspection and then they spend another half an hour driving back or getting lunch on the way, or however long it is. One time, okay, but if you replicate that, you’ve got 8, or 10, or 15 properties for rent at that time, that’s a headache for any company because of all these inefficiencies on the road. I identified, “Okay. Well, what do we do?” My wife was working for a ticketing and event company based in San Diego. She was running it from Australia, it’s the operations. We’re in San Diego one time, I had this massive 3D 360 camera. I was going through all the theaters and from every seat there would be a 360 [...] so that people, when they go to buy a ticket, they could see their exact view of how they’re going to see the stage. I was like, “Hang on. Why can’t I do this in real estate? What’s stopping me from doing [...]? This is so simple.” The camera was huge. It was massive at the time. Even three months later, I couldn’t find an actual camera to do it. What I was doing was going to the room and taking 100 shots everywhere and then stitching it together. For one image it was taking way too long. At Christmas time, I was in London, closed the business down, before virtual reality [...]. It can be done. I was walking up the high street in London and I just thought, “I need to find something simple, cheap, to get the job done, and save me more time.” I just went on the phone, I looked at my phone, and I found a local supplier that had the Ricoh 360 camera. It has just been released. I went out and picked it up, and from that point in time, everything I did for real estate, for property had a 360 video. And went then into step two, and I made sure that all the rental properties had a normal video, just with a smartphone or SLR. From that moment on, when I brought the 360 camera, I really hit all our properties hard. Before I go with 360 virtual reality and video, a lot of people that I speak to, they go out and buy the camera, they’ll do one tour which generally happens after the tenant has vacated and they’ve already had marketing for 4–6 weeks, they’ll do the tour and they’ll say, “You know what? Michael, I tried that. It’s not for me. Didn’t help me get a tenant. It was no good.” That’s the biggest feedback I had. That’s cool. That’s fine. But for me, I want to persevere. I made sure that every single property we came up for rent, had a 360 virtual tour. Also in the start, it didn’t help with every single property because I had marketed without photos for four weeks prior, and I was able to find tenants thereabouts, most often than not. With the 360 virtual tours, it was the next time that it came up for rent. A tenant would give me notice to vacate. The day they gave me notice to vacate, the virtual tour went up on all the real estate platforms that are out there. We have the video and we have our photos which are okay. They’re good, they’re okay. But from day one, people could start to see the property without me having to worry about booking an open for inspection and the condition of the property is all boxed up, or the whole family’s home or whatever excuse the tenant was, people could start to see the property. That started to change things. Just to reiterate, if you’re starting off, you have a property that’s coming up for rent, the tenant’s moving out, you can do the 360 tour afterwards. You may not get the hyper result that you’re expecting. Don’t stress. Replicate it on every single property you’ve got and you will start to see massive change from the next time it’s for rent and every time after that. Don’t stress. Give it time. People fail because they give up straight away. Jason: And then each new door that you’re getting on, you’re going to do the virtual tour at the beginning so you’ll have that moving forward. Michael: Correct. I got to the point where if a tenant gave notice to vacate, I went in there, and I do the 360 tour with all the furniture in there as it was. I didn’t put that on publicly but I was able to show people with the tenant’s permission, just give them a link, and remove the link after they see it afterwards. I wouldn’t get it publicly on the real estate platforms but I would have the tour and I would give it to people. That changed everything, too. Tenants were okay with that because you can edit the 360 images to blur out photos in the wall and things like that. That was pretty good. I also just did on the iPhone walk-through videos that I could also comment on. I would take just photos, too. We had over 85% of our real estate booked on virtual platform. Can you imagine, Jason, having 85% of your business, that people can view the property without you having to worry about putting a lot box on, be physically attending the property, and having the issue of staff or even yourself going to have to show that property multiple times? To touch on that, we were averaging at 1.8 showings per property and I’ve got to cancel one showing per property on average. Jason: No kidding. Michael: Huge time savings. If you were to quantify that and you’re breaking out 15 properties a month, let’s say, that’s like $150,000 saving in a year, of time and profit based on our letting fees. Our letting fees are small than American letting fees. It’d be significantly higher in America but for us, it’s about $150,000 just the base saving in 15 properties a month. Jason: Oh, yeah. So, the cost savings compared to the cost of getting the digital cameras and maybe the little bit of work and labor that would take to get these virtual tours done and everything, it was an obvious no brainer, financially. Michael: Obviously, yeah. For me at the start, I would have spent a couple of thousand dollars, maybe more, trying to really solve it. I have a lot of cameras now, a lot of VR, a lot of 360 cameras, and I’m still using the same one that I bought years ago which was the Ricoh. But I’m trying to find the next camera that gives me more depth immersion like the Matterport but something that fits in my pocket. So, for me to do it, if it does not fit in my pocket, I’m not going to take it with me. The Ricoh fits in the pocket. I think it’s $170 or something like that on Amazon. A tripod is $30 or $40 on Amazon. To host 22 platforms of the year is $20. The platform that I use is Vieweet It’s one of the cheapest one out there. It’s robust, it’s simple, it’s no frills. If you’re an agency, you’re just starting out, and you’re looking for cheap ways to do 360 automated showings, $130 for the camera, $30 for the tripod, $20 a year to list 20 showings that you can put up and take down. A lot of people don’t have more than 20 properties available all at once. Jason: It's called Vieweet? Michael: Yes. If you're in $200-$250 US, you can be up and running today to do these things. But just remember, you may not get that sprinkled dust straight away. It’s something where you build that new catalog that does work. Results have been quite fast because I kept at it and you will, I can’t say, you'll get the same if not similar results that I was getting because what it all sold for us—that’s just kind of the odd part of things, Jason. Our property to more people around the world in different that [...] the property. Rather than having to rely on people to come into a lock box or view the property physically, they may not have been the best quality tenant. Rather than giving the best to the bad bunch, we’re able to give it to the best of everyone. Anyone who wants to see it within the markets to high-end income, at least they could go to relocation consultants that were actually being paid by people to come into the country to show them properties. We were showing it to the people before they go to relocation agencies in the end. If they will apply, they would inquire, “Hi, Michael. I'm actually relocating from America or Europe. I'll be there next month, try to arrange a viewing.” I’ll send in the link. They view the property. They don’t need to worry about looking at 10 properties when they get here. We can do the process, we can get them out of Skype or Zoom. At the end of the day, good tenants can go bad. Make sure you get landlord insurance if you can get that. We were so efficient with what we did and that’s probably for another conversation, but we got rent arrears to 0%. Not only will we have to get the best tenants in the marketplace, we get the best tenants that could afford to pay rent and not have any arrears and it solved a massive problem for us too. We are probably at about I think 3½ of rent arrears sometimes because people, they’re just lazy. By changing the type of tenants that we had, also made all the knock on effects that we had so that our arrears is 0% vacancy because we’re able to work credibly with our leases to make sure that longer leases we had better type of tenants. We’re also able to mesh the type of tenants to the property. For example, if we have an application that was someone 50 years plus as opposed to 18-25 year olds. An 18-25 year old would be more transient and they wouldn’t stay on the property for a long period of time, maybe 12 months. But someone who’s older is typically settling down, they don’t want to be moving around everywhere. We have a bit of a tenant selection too. Jason: I realized it might be a little different in Australia than here though. Michael: Well, what we did inside the office, we can verbalize it to the people that apply. Jason: Got it. Michael: No one from Australia is watching this, yeah? No tenants that I had. Jason: Right. This all makes a lot of sense. You have 0% vacancy rate. You’re renting out some of these places before they're even vacant because you're marketing them from the second there's a notice. You're getting people out of state or out of country that are able to look at it. I think it’s brilliant that you've got partnerships you've created in alignment with relocation agencies and relocation agents. I think that's sharp. All of this sounds really fascinating and this is something that anybody can do. Michael: Anyone can do it. Even like staff members. You’ve got people who work for bosses, there's no reason why [...] to help automate your showing. If a virtual tour or a video, or someone contact you at 10:00 o’clock at night and you're this type of person that picks up the phone at 10:00 o’clock and tries to make a time, you can send them link that’ll pre-qualify them. The good thing about UVR, it shows you the room, the whole room. They can be looking at the whole kitchen. They can be looking at the whole bathroom for so many times you go online and you just see a corner of the bathroom which shows the tiles, the toilet, the shower, and the bath. It eradicates all of that, it’s gone. I think I showed you too, when we got to the actual property, the other headache was, I'm not sure if my table would fit, or the fridge might fit in the cavity so then we included an incorporated AR, so the augmented reality which was just another boat. With the AR, you can record the screen, so you can be at the property while it’s taken and actually do a video recording of, “This is where your catch goes. This is where the fridge goes, and the TV goes,” and put the furniture down. Then you can send that video to people too when they inquire about, “Will it fit a king sofa bed, or what size is the fridge cavity?” Because people are visual, mostly. Jason: How are you doing that? How are you putting in beds, virtual beds and things like this into a video? Michael: The app that I use is a free app. I love this stuff. It isn’t going to cost anyone here. Housecraft. Now that’s free augmented reality application. Jason: Housecraft, it sounds like witchcraft, it’s like magic. Housecraft, okay. Michael: It is magic. Again, I have all these tools because they're objection handlers. I don't need to over complicate things because then it just starts making problems. These are free things that anyone can be using. Anyone can do anything that I've been doing. None of it is hard. It’s just I have a better use of my time. Jason: Yeah. You’re using Housecraft, you're using Vieweet, you’ve got your Ricoh camera, are there any other technological tools that help you automate the showing thing? Michael: Basically, how it would work for us was a tenant will give notice to vacate or we would have a brand new property come on. We would have the tour or take the tour. We would put that as a link on a description. A lot of the feedback I had from people around the world was, our property software, our showing software doesn't allow us to put a hyperlink in there. We just put it in the ads, we put it in the ad there too. We had every second photo for us was, “Did you know this property is in virtual reality? Make sure you click on the link in the description.” When people are looking on their smart device, because most people are probably looking ad property searches from their mobiles, it’s important that we could grab their attention with a nice bit of photo, grab their attention saying, “Hey, we've got a virtual tour, or a video, make sure you look at it and prequalify.” Rather than coming to the property and saying it’s for them. If someone did call and inquire the questions was, “Great. Have you seen the virtual tour?” If it was no, it’s like, “Okay, here’s the virtual tour,” and they all had to see it. We would not go to a property unless the person had seen the virtual tour. Jason: Right. Virtual tour first and then if you've watched that and it's still a go, then we will show you the property. Michael: Correct. When we did that, when we went to the property, we knew that it was really just a case of them checking if there's a smell, just their general feel, their juju. It was basically they’re going to apply for the property. Typically, if I went to the property, there's a 93% chance they got the property, and it was 96% that they would apply or they’d rent the property. Jason: Because the virtual tours have filtered out so much. Michael: Prequalified. Jason: Now, in the photos where you doing stuff like box brownie and like this kind of stuff or are we just getting photos? Michael: We change it to make sure that the header photo, the main photo in this sort of style—we’d have a blue sky, green grass—it was just a nice attractive image so that people would click on that, like a clickbait basically. It'll look nice, they click on it, and then the next image was the virtual tour. They knew that there was a virtual tour there and then there are the other photos. They were the only photos that were relevant like the way you actually see the room. If you couldn’t see the room or it was cut off, we wouldn’t show it, because the virtual tour was going to show the property in its entirety. This just meant that I would not put 20 photos up of a half-baked house when I can put three photos up, a virtual tour video, and a walkthrough video—far greater impact. That’s why we’re leasing properties four times faster than our competitors, and we were getting more than double the amount of views on all our properties according to realestate.com.au which is a massive property platform in Australia. What we were doing was, no major cost difference to competitors, but we were getting twice the people looking at our property, and four times faster with being leased. Jason: Michael, this sounds really incredible. Having all these stuff in place, it sounds really low cost, and it sounds like it actually saves you a ton of time, and a ton of money to get these things implemented. Now, what I love to do is connect this to how is this helping you grow your business. Obviously, it’s reducing cost, it's reducing staff, but this sounds like a huge competitive advantage selling point when you're pitching to new owners to say, “We have zero vacancy rate. We’re managing hundreds of properties…” which is unheard of in our industry, “…and we can we can get this thing taken care of and lease it out really rapidly. I've got the cameras on me, I'm ready to go. Let’s do this.” Michael: Correct. There’s a lot of white noise and noise generally in property management. When you're going to a listing presentation, it runs based on the same topics. “We collect rent. We have low vacancy. We are fantastic. We have good systems.” You can basically walk into a presentation and know verbatim what people are going to saying. If somebody inquired about renting out a property, they will get an email from me with our reviews, true statements, and things that we do differently. When I would go to the appraisal, I wouldn't actually bring anything other than a set of virtual reality goggles. For me, I didn’t go in with a booklet. Everyone kind of expects you to walk in with a booklet and pamphlet like all your competitors do. But me, it’s straight away, “Let's work on that trust that rapport with the owner.” I would walk into the presentation, I put the virtual goggles down the table which is a gimmick, they're a gimmick, and then I put them on the table and then I say, “Mr. and Mrs. Landlord, so tell me, what do you love about your property? What are the tenants going to love about the property? What would you do differently to the property that tenants might also think that they wouldn’t want changed?” I get them speaking about it. None of it is about my fees, none of it is about my service, none of it is about anything else about me, it’s just about them. Then it gets to the point where, “I can totally see why people fall in love in this property and it's so important that we show people what this property actually offers. Here are a couple of ways that we can do that.” Bear in mind, by the time they've already got to ask and called us, they've gone and seen our Google reviews. They've seen our social profile. They’ve already assessed us when they make the phone call. Jason: Sure. Michael: It’s so important that you’ve got some social proof and some history there. If you're just starting out as an agent, get reviews, get some social proof because you really are fantastic. As people, we’re fantastic, and there's so many great attributes. If you're starting fresh, you don't have to look fresh. Jason, you're helping build websites. You can make someone who's just starting out look as a major player in the marketplace. Jason: Absolutely. I tell potential clients, there's no reason why a company with zero doors or even five doors has to look any different than a company with a 1000 doors. They can have just as good a branding, just as good of a website, and we can help them with the reputation stuff. We have our service gatherkudos.com for those listening that you can check out, which helps you facilitate or lubricate I guess if you will, that process of getting more reviews from clients. Michael: There's no reason why you can’t. “I don’t have clients to get reviews.” “I'm sure you've done business with people before and they can leave you reviews.” That’s all you need, just that momentum. From the time that we’re meeting with them, they know a little bit about us. I'm not concerned about any other services because they all know that we collect rent, and we find tenants, and we manage maintenance, and we do all that stuff. It's going to the owners that we will love their property, and really focus on the things that they love also, and identify the weaknesses of the property too because it’s important for us at the start the owners to acknowledge their property may have some shortcomings. They wouldn’t have to have that awkward conversation later. The prospective tenants said that, “I like the pink wall in the kitchen.” We get the owners to draw out what they think is needed in the start, and then it sets the time. Then I bring out the virtual goggles, and I say, “This is one way that people are really going to immerse themselves in your property from their own lounge room. We also had virtual goggles and Oculus Rift in our office, so when people came in and they want to get a rental list, we stop giving out paper and we would say, “What are you after? A three-bedroom, two-bedroom?” And give them the goggles, and show them a property. We have far greater success than coming in, picking up some paper in the office, leaving, throwing it in the bin later on for one property they might be interested in. We cut down on paper too, Jason. That was a pretty good experience. We went paperless. For new owners, they could say that we were focused on serving the customer, rather than they burdened with admin and just a slow death in a real estate office. We could show them some of the other tours we've done. We were doing drone work too Jason, where we would showcase the aerial view of the property in proximity to shops because that was another question that people would say, “Probably looks great, but what's it near?” In Australia, with Google maps, sometimes, they hadn't caught up, so the area would look like just massive farmland, but actually, they’ve built up a state with shopping malls, and freeways going through it. We take aerial shot, and show it from what it was near. With owners, I think, I was at 140 doors and 141 appraisals. Jason: You show up for these initial contacts at the property, or these appraisals, or whatever you're doing, and you would pull out virtual reality goggles, and set your camera there, and start describing what you do. Michael: Correct. Now, fast forward a few more years, we didn’t have to go to the property anymore, because I had the virtual tours online, and people can see them, and it would tie on my websites, so people could see that too, and they got to the point where people would make an inquiry, and I will send them a video message. They're already seeing all the proof statements, and a video message to start the initial conversation. I didn't have to meet all these owners, I try to meet all the owners. Sometimes I make time for if they're interstate, they were overseas, whatever the reason. I found other ways to get inside the living room without being in their living room. You have the virtual tours, and then you get the video text messages, and a lot of people will say, “I’m too scared to do a video text message. What if I say the wrong thing?” I say, “It's easy, don’t send it. Just do it again.” Jason: Right, re-record it. Michael: If you're doing a video, you can edit it. If it’s not live, edit. If it’s live, I’d say laugh. So what? Make a mistake, we’re human. I will make the same mistake speaking with you, as I would do on a video. Recapping on it, our process was, every property had to have a virtual tour. When I had the staff, they weren't happy going out and taking a virtual tour, because it would take them between 15 minutes to 30 minutes, maybe depending on how many rooms there were. It's a very fast process to take photos and then you just copy them on to the Vieweet platform, and you put the hyperlinks, the hotspots, and the tour is done. The tour might take you 45 minutes to do. For me, that's no problem at all, if it’s a big one. If it’s small one bedroom place, might take you five minutes to stitch it together. It just depends. The more you do it, the faster you become. Every property had the virtual tour, had the video, had some updated photos. It just meant that as a tenant, trying to select for the property, all the problems were answered. As an owner, we're now looking at other agents online who’s going to rent out their property, they can take the methodical process of photo, virtual tour, application form. That’s very simple process. We then are going to back it up with proof statements, like the rent is zero vacancy. All those other things that were important, because if you guys are doing an appraisal and start just reeling off everything you do, you're the same as everyone else, but if you can show proof statements, then it's 97% there. Jason: Love it. You can easily send a video introducing yourself, and you can send them link to a page of video testimonials from clients. If you can give them all the social proof, and you say, “Look at how we market the properties.” Send them the link to your rental listings. “Here's an example. Here's a property similar to yours maybe.” Suddenly, they can imagine all of it, they can see it, and it becomes real to them. This becomes this huge competitive advantage in this huge differentiator between you, and other property management companies, and then it's allowing you to close more deals. I would imagine it facilitates word-of-mouth, because people are going to talk about you because they're probably impressed. I would be impressive if somebody showed up with goggles, and camera, and show me tours, and sent me a video text message. I'd be like, “These guys are on top of things, and they're tech savvy, and they're going to take care of me out of the gate.” Michael: I guess one of the great things is, I won't mention the exact pricing, but we were full fee. We weren’t competing with, “But that agent is offering a cheaper fee,” anymore. We’re full fee, we’re doing full leasing fee for management estate. In Australia, we can't charge as many fees as you can in America. I wish we could, but we were full fees. I was maximizing every potential fee that I could, so routine inspection fees, higher statement fees. We were full fees, we don’t have to compete with someone. I remember when I started, Jason, and I’m trying to get traction, I sent out a thousand flyers to people and offered a low management fee to people for three months. I got one person out of the thousand that I sent out, that was great, because there were multiple referring client. But starting out, thinking that I have to charge something low, so that I can get in front of more people was one of the biggest crazy thoughts that I had at the very start. Jason: It's one of the most common beginner pitfalls is, “I need to be cheaper than everybody else to get started and to compete.” Michael: Yeah. If I just realized back over 10 years ago that my value proposition had to change. Jason: Yeah. Michael: “Not with my fees but with my value proposition. How do I not complicate it? Now, I no longer have any other office. I work from a home office. I've restructured because I don’t want to have physical staff. I've got VAs that do all the menial tasks. All the properties that we have are on the virtual platform. I've got no properties arranged at the moment. No rent arrears. Last year, I was abroad seven months of the year. I was in Turkey for two months, Indonesia for two months, in and out of America, or like interstate. I traveled a lot. This year, maybe four months of the year. If I get a new business, I will have someone go and do the virtual tool for me. I’ll train a simple person who doesn't want to do anything else if I'm not around. I enjoy going to the properties and checking them out. I'm a bit of a property nerd, I like checking them out, seeing how we can add value and connecting. The most important thing for me as an agency was to make sure that we have meaningful conversations, getting rid of all the clutter and all the noise. Instead, we will focus on the good happy goals, the meaningful connections, making sure that we can add value to our customers and our clients. That was our end result, to have that meaningful connection. The rest just all falls into place, it’s all systems. Jason: You didn't go into it thinking, “I just want to automate everything to the nines.” Your core end goal was, “We want to have meaningful connections,” and then, “I want to have freedom as I'm doing this,” to just focus on that. Michael: Yeah. Automating it just allows the opportunity to spend more time with people. Jason: I love it. Michael: It wasn't to make it so easy that I could travel a lot. It just meant that I need to get better connections. I pick up properties from going overseas. So many Americans travel. I've been in Europe and picked up a new management system [...] abroad. It gives me that flexibility. Also, you get to actually get new systems. People do things differently, so go out and see how other people are doing things to make their businesses better and how can you implement it in your business. It’s so important. Jason: Yeah. I think I heard a quote the other day that was, “Travel is the language of peace.” The amount of tolerance, and learning, and growth that happens just from being in different environments and different cultures, I remember taking a trip to Israel and it just was so different than what I was used to in the US. Even the checkpoints where kids were holding machine guns. It was just all so different and it was just really eye opening. I've been in Mexico, very different. You’ve been exposed to so many different cultures. You get to really fill your soul with having this variety in life. I think that's part of why a lot of people are in property management. They love that unique variety. There's all these different unique challenges that come with it. There’s all these unique opportunities to meet unique people. You really got to focus on the even best and highest portions of that by being able to treat that freedom. Michael: Don't be scared of doing anything. Don’t be scared of making mistakes. Trial it. If it’s not 360 for someone, if it’s not video for someone. Go ahead and trial things and see how it can give you that freedom, but also to be able to engage with people, family, and friends. Imagine if you live in a suburb and you've got a sports club, a church, a local pub, or whatever you’ve got, all these meeting places but you never get to go there because you're so busy trying to do the admin. You're a local real estate agent and you're not even able to local. Flip that upside down. Imagine if you're a local real estate agent doing local things because you have all these other things automated and being done for you while you're networking, and meeting, and engaging with people in your area. Imagine for a second how different that looks. Jason: Yeah, I love it. I think, Michael, everybody listening has probably by now hopefully felt a little bit inspired that there's this possibility that you've painted for them that is probably for a lot of property manager still outside the current world view. I think that's exciting. I appreciate you coming on the show. How can people get in touch with you and what sort of take away would you want to leave them with? Michael: Well, if you’ve got any questions about anything we've spoken about today, just hit me up on Facebook and send me a message and I'll respond that way. It’s probably the easiest way rather than giving you a cell number or an email, just go to Facebook, we can connect there. I'm on messenger, it’s the simplest way. Again, I guess the constant message that we've been discussing today is try it; don’t give up, try new things that may automate your business and give you more time tomorrow even though you’re spending more time today to get it done. Jason: Perfect. This is an episode I will hope that people will listen to more than once. Michael, I appreciate you coming on the show. Michael: You're welcome. Jason: I think you gave a lot of value. I'm grateful to you. Thanks for being here and sharing so many ideas. Michael: Thank you. Jason: Alright, cool. That was really fun for me as a nerd to have Michael on. Message him through Facebook. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and make a difference, as I said in the intro, then you should be a part of our community. You would love it in there. Make sure you join the DoorGrow Club. You can get into that by going to doorgrowclub.com. Our Facebook group, there's really cool people in there like Michael, and there's just some phenomenal helpful property managers. People that buy into this vision that good property management can change the world. That what the industry needs here, especially in the US is collaboration over competition. These are people that are willing to collaborate, willing to help, willing to support you. Make sure you get inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group and check it out. If you join that group, if you apply and join that group, it's free, but you have to apply. We will give you some free gifts including a fee bible and some other really cool takeaways and gifts over the next few days after we welcome you to the group, just to welcome you aboard, part of our Facebook group. Check that out at doorgrowclub.com. Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everybody.  

Like the title says, "no Jason" but that didn't stop Aaron and Mike from having the time of their lives. The 2 #DADS discussed several topics including detachable face car stereos, #JohnSingleton movies, #TooShort coming to South Central Agoura Hills, and the kids driving us crazy with their lack of effort on the playing field. Share with your dad friends! #dadlife #podcast #agourahills #westlakevillage #firstcar #kevindurant #NBAPlayoffs #warriors #allstars #parents #canyonclub #rap #toyotacelica #geostorm #weloveyoujason

Jason Krantz is the Director of Business Analytics & Insights for the 135-year old company, Weil McLain and Marley Engineered Products. While the company is responsible for helping keeping homes and businesses warm, Jason is responsible for the creation and growth of analytical capabilities at Weil McLain, and was recognized in 2017 as a “Top 40 Under 40” in the HVAC industry. I’m not surprised given his posts on LinkedIn; Jason seems very focused on satisfying his internal customers and ensuring that there is practical  business value anchoring their analytics initiatives. We talked about: How Jason’s team keeps their data accessible and relevant to the issue they need to solve for their customer. How Jason strives to keep the information simple and clean for the customer. How does Jason help drive analytics in a company culture with a lot of legacy (from its people to its parts) The importance of focusing on context How Jason drives his team to be business partners, and not report generators Resources and Links:  Jason Krantz on LinkedIn Quotes from Jason Krantz:  “You realize that small quick wins are very effective because, at its core, it’s really important to get executive buy-in.” “I’m a huge fan of simplicity. As analytics pros, we could very easily make very complex, very intricate models, and just, ‘Oh, look at how smart we are.’ It doesn’t help our customers. …we only use about two or three different visual types and we use mostly the exact same visual set-up. I can train a sales rep for probably five minutes on all of our reporting because if you understand one, you’re going to understand everything. That gets to the theme again of just simplicity. Don’t over complicate, keep it simple, keep it clean.” “…To get buy-in, you really got to have your business case, even to your internal customers, really dialed in. If you just bring them a bunch of crap, that’s how you’re going to lose credibility. They’re going to be like, “I don’t have the time to waste with you,” even though we’re trying to be helpful.” “What my team and I do is we really help companies weaponize their data assets.” Episode Transcript Brian: Jason, are you there? Jason: I’m here my friend. Brian: Sweet. How’s it going? Jason: It’s going very well today. How’s your Friday going? Brian: I’m doing awesome. We’re going to talk a little bit about analytics. Is it Wile McLain or Weil McLain? Jason: I say Weil McLain. If I’ve been saying it wrong, I’ve been saying it wrong for a while. Brian: As I recall from my musical training, I think in German, the second syllable is the one that says its name. I guess it would be Wile McLain, like if it was W-I-E-L it would be ‘Weil.’ But I don’t know. Its anglicized as they come over the pond. Jason: I’m going to go with you on that when you sound like an expert. Brian: Nice. Well, you sound like an expert in analytics at Weil McLain. Tell us about what you’re doing over there. We met on LinkedIn, I’ve been enjoying your postings on the social feed about your approach. You seem really passionate about what you’re doing and I’m like, “I don’t know who this guy is, but that was really interesting.” I just have. Tell us about the company, what they do. I know they’re in heating, right? Jason: Yes, absolutely. The company I work for, and I work in the HVAC space, we’re a 135-year-old boiler manufacturer. Whether you realize it or not, you probably have one of our products in your house or building or very close to where you live. What my team and I do is we really help companies weaponize their data assets. As you know, a lot of companies are very skilled at acquiring data since the Big Data Movement. But the reality is that a lot of these companies don’t know what to do with all this data. That’s where we really come in. What I always tell my team and our business partners that we work with internally and externally is that our focus is on solving business problems. In order to do that, you have to identify what is the business problem that you’re trying to solve or strategic agenda that you’re trying to address. In order to do that, you really have to be anchored in the biz. Again, that’s just my perspective, but if you’re in the business day in, day out, you develop this very keen stand of what the business would need to accomplish its objectives. Just like right now, we are based in the marketing group and it’s a great spot to be. I’m a firm believer that every analytics team should be based in the business for a reason that I just talked about. But what that does being business-first is that gives us a great lens to look at data from. Sometimes analytics people would be IT-centric and they can do a lot of academic work against the data set or different data sets. But the business might look at the output and be like, “Yeah, that doesn’t help us.” We always, always, always start with, “What is the business problem we’re trying to solve or strategy we’re looking to address?” It also helps us when it comes to curating data also. That’s one of our primary response [00:03:21] this too, is to look for different data sets both internal and external that can help us identify strategic opportunities. It sounds really unsexy, I’m not going to lie. I think some of my LinkedIn post just say that data is boring. It really is. It’s mind-numbing, too, about 85% of my customers. But that’s the important part is understanding what do our customers need and that’s really the lens that we look at this through. We are a service provider, our customers are internal and external, we have customers just like any other business. We have to take this really boring, but really potent product in data and make it accessible to them. That’s really where we use design to really try to make that magic happen. Brian: I love that you said, “Trying to understand what the problem is.” This is something we talk about on the mailing list quite a bit. In fact, falling in love with the problem is a good basis for doing good work instead of kind of jumping to solutions or feeling […]. As I tell my clients sometimes like, “Our job is not to go and visualize the data. It’s not […] available for someone to put into another tool or whatever the heck it is. The job is to find an insight that already is used. Probably they’re already in your job and you’re there to make […] if you’re doing internal analytics. Help them do a better job at what they’re doing, offer more value. You need to figure out how to work that into their life.” For example, for you guys then, your customer, I assume is it primarily sales people that you’re working with? Who are your customers and your […]? Jason: Yes. Great question. One of our biggest customers is sales. Sales has been one of my biggest customers for the past 10 years of my career. I’m very intimately involved with the sales team, sales operation, sales optimization, insight gathering, pricing, things like that, but also marketing. We do a lot in terms of competitive intelligence gathering, market research. We also do a lot of operations in finance obviously related to the prices, that sort of thing. We really touch all areas of the business, but without question, our biggest customers are going to be sales and marketing. Brian: If you were to bring a new initiative like, “Hey, we have access to…” I don’t know what it might be but for you maybe your point, [might be a line 00:05:49] of data that could actually give them more leverage. We know what the negotiation brings, better than […], we know we kind of have an idea now from what the industry is doing for their sales such that we can now tell the CRM like, “This is your […] or something.” When do you get that sales person involved? Do you deliver a solution and get feedback? Do you bring […] early and say, “Hey, we think we can tell you more about how to do better pricing on the spot with this thing.” Do you bring them in or when do they fit into your process? Jason: Great question. A lot of times because we spend so much time actually in the trenches, that’s one of things I think is unique about the way that I design my teams to do analytics. It’s not like hand off product and we’re like, “Godspeed. Good luck.” Once we deliver a solution, we’re actually in the trenches with the business trying to implement what we’re talking about because it just works better. The team work is just more effective and they know that they’ve got back up, they know they’ve got air support. Really, a lot of times when we come up with something new, a lot of times we will frame it from the lens like, “Hey, we know that we’ve got opportunity A or issue B, or whatever it is. This has been an issue or an opportunity for months or years or whatever.” We think that we’ve identified something that could help us in solving that issue or realizing the potential of that opportunity and then it becomes, “Okay, let’s sit down and talk about, do you agree that this might actually help us in this process?” Because the one thing that I’ve learned is, in order to get buy-in, you really, really got to have your business case, even to your internal customers, really dialed in. If you just bring them a bunch of crap, that’s how you’re going to lose credibility. They’re going to be like, “I don’t have the time to waste with you,” even though we’re trying to be helpful. What we found out is if you really dial in what are we trying to address with this, just as you would with any business case, and you bring that to them, I have found that they tend to be much more receptive. It’s not to say there’s not going to be resistance—resistance comes with any change—but we found that typically framing it from that lens and saying, “We’re trying to solve a problem that you have, we think that this data will help,” that’s a great starting point. Brian: Do you have an example of a before/after with that? I don’t want you to get into proprietary stuff you can’t talk about but is there like a, “Before they did it this way,” and then we brought them in and said, “Hey, we think we can get […].” and how you went [00:08:19]. Jason: Yeah. What I can talk about is just the manner in which we distribute sales information, specifically insights. I think that, for your listeners, this is going to ring true to a lot of sales forces. I know for all them that I’ve been in or worked with, this case was true 100% of the time. But one of the things that, again, keeping the customer-centric focus, that if you look at your sales reps, a lot of time is you’re going to be what I call casual data consumers. By that, I mean that these are guys and gals that aren’t really into data day in and day out like guys like you and I or some of the listeners maybe. What we have to do is, as I always encourage my team to take empathetic lens and look at, “Okay, if we give them what our first […] is going to look like, how are they going to interpret this?” A lot of times, to be honest, it’s not very good. Now that’s where we have to look at internally and kind of rationalize and say, “Okay, let’s find this. One of us will find [00:09:14].” But one example of that is traditionally, sales reps and sales teams will get the information in a flat Excel table. Just lots of rows and columns and just gibberish everywhere. That’s a very financial-centric view of sales data. But the reality is—I don’t know about the rest of mankind but I know for myself—I can’t remember much more than 10 numbers. The mental computational cost of extracting insights is just gargantuan. What happens is, I just don’t even bother to do it. I’m just like, “Yeah, whatever.” An equivalent of that is, you know if you get a big block of text in email? Even though if you took that same block of text and broke it up into two paragraphs or two sentence segments which is very easy to read when you put the effort in, but for me, if I get a big block of text, I’m not even going to read that. It’s kind of one of the same things that we see on the sales side. What we do is just say, “You know what? There’s a lot of really good information here and we need to make it digestible for our customers.” That’s where we found traditionally, visualization can be an incredibly effective tool to communicate insights to this casual data audience, to this casual data consumer. Brian: Do you have to work through the visuals with them? Do they tend to get it the first time? Is it a process of you share, “Here’s a report or here’s some new view on X.” How do you know if the visualization is actually allowing them to pull the insight out of what other [00:10:46] broad data? How do you know they’re actually “getting it”? Jason: That’s a great question. I’m a huge fan of simplicity. As analytics pros, we could very easily make very complex, very intricate models, and just, “Oh, look at how smart we are.” It doesn’t help our customers. It doesn’t help anything. Really what we do—this is going to get to the theme of simplicity—is we only use about two or three different visual types and we use mostly the exact same visual set-up. Just to kind of frame it, what I’m a big fan of is a simple bar chart. There’s more details attached to it but to the right of the bar chart, we’ll typically put a tabular data set. What we do is, as you think in US at least, we start in that left-hand side of the page or we […]. What we do is we look at the visual real estate. We say, “Our customers are going to start in the left-hand side. We want them to look at the bar chart because it allows them to very rapidly assimilate it at a high-level what’s going on.” It’s great at communicating at top-level churn very quickly but the trade-off is, is this horrible imprecision. You have no precision at all. What we like to do is then we address that issue by putting a simple table, very clean, very simple table over to the right. What that does is that then provides the precision that the customers are seeing in most financial-centric tables. What we found that does is that we have to train our sales team on one set-up and then that set-up is used virtually universally on all of our solutions. As an example, I can train a sales rep for probably five minutes on all of our reporting because if you understand one, you’re going to understand everything. That gets to the theme again of just simplicity. Don’t over complicate, keep it simple, keep it clean. Brian: I think those are good. A lot of times, when I work with engineering clients, they fall in love with consistency. I guess one point to maybe just the contrary of this is that, I think consistency is generally a good rule with design. We want to minimize unnecessary change but at the same time, I would recommend to listeners is to always look at context first, and context should always come in. Let’s say Jason comes up with report number 12 and they have 11 now or whatever, and it doesn’t feel right for number 11. That’s a place where a designer would probably push for, “Well, no. The 12th one actually needs to be different because it’s not […] 11th and even though it’s not consistent, in this context, we don’t need it to win. This version will deliver the usability and the utility that we’re looking for better than the other 11 will.” In general, I think it’s smart to not get creative unnecessarily with meaningless ink on the screen like, “Let’s try it this way. Let’s change the color palette. I’m tired of this.” Those are not good reasons for […], you’re just introducing noise and it’s unnecessary. But I like that you guys are thinking about simplicity and trying to reuse templates and not looking at it as a creative tableau. Ironically, people think it’s a creative “design” tool, but at the same time with all those weapons, you have a lot of different weapons you can use in that toolkit and part of that is knowing how to use this. It’s the same thing with Photoshop, a million buttons and all this stuff. The Photoshop doesn’t make you a designer. It’s being aware of your customer’s pain and the problems they need and knowing when to use all those filters and all those different things that it can do. I like that you guys are looking into that simplicity and reusing templates when it’s meaningful to do so. Jason: You bring up some great points and I 100% agree. My team that’s listening there, they’ll laugh because I beat it in their heads, “Context. Context, context, context.” Both in design as you’ve talked but especially with numbers in general. Like, “If I give you a number, a billion, that doesn’t mean anything, you got to have context.” I’d say the same is true for design just as you articulated. Great point. Brian: Where does the impetus for “everybody is a data company, everybody wants to do analytics”? But then there’s operationalizing that, there’s getting buy-in, leadership behind it. Where does that come from in your org? Where is the interest in taking a 130-year-old company and getting it to care about this? Where does that come from, your influence and all of that? Jason: That was driven by our current president because he saw it as part of a digital transformation. Obviously, this was an essential component of that. Obviously, we do a lot with analytics, but we’re also involved in a lot of other digital components that lead to that overall digital maturation. Analytics is a very, very big part of what we do but it’s not all that we do. We serve as kind of that quarterback for a lot of the digital initiatives to help basically, guide them through the process. Because even though some of the nuances of each of this project, each one will have its own nuances, they all come back to data. Data is the currency. We found out pretty quickly that if you want to stay relevant in this day and age, you need to be digitally evolved but more importantly, as you look at it, do you [compare the 00:16:02] advantage that you can derive from analytics? I would argue that gap is slowly closing known certain industries like manufacturing, but we probably have a little bit more runway [00:16:10] it. But for a lot of industries, analytics is becoming table stakes. It’s one of those where you can certainly expect incremental value and competitive advantage, but the question becomes how much longer. That was kind of the impetus of saying, “Hey, we got to get this going sooner rather than later.” Brian: Do you have people in sales that are resistant to using the reporting or taking advantage of your information or is it pretty ingrained in the company culture that it’s like, “This is a tool. Why would you not want to use it?” Or did you guys have a […] getting adoption? Jason: Yeah. I would say anytime you’re going through a transformation of this magnitude, it’s hard and I would say especially for other manufacturers. I found in general, manufacturing in general, tends to be one of the laggards industry-wise in analytical maturity. Unquestionably, it’s tough for no other reason than change is tough. You’re taking legacy plants, legacy steer pieces, legacy process, and some people has been around the company for decades potentially, and we’re asking them to change almost on a dime on their time scale how they do business. It’s not that it’s right or wrong but what we try to point out is that, as I always say, we have to acknowledge the past. We’ve been where we’ve been, we’ve been successful at where we been. But there’s been more change in the past two or three years than maybe you’ve seen in the past 15-20 years. In order to stay relevant, you really have to be ready to evolve, not only evolve but evolve quickly. But I have to openly acknowledge that that’s hard. It’s a hard proposition for a lot of people. Again, it comes down to change management and managing not only expectations but supporting that change. Change doesn’t happen by itself, we have to support that. That’s really what we try to coach through. The way that we try to do that is by developing a product with our customers. I’m sure as you can […], if you force something upon somebody, it doesn’t get received too well. But if you develop it in conjunction with them and do tie it around their needs, it tends to get better adaptation. Brian: You used the word product in there and I’m interested, do you see the outputs of your efforts? Primarily, it’s BI reporting as I understand it. Do you look at that as the product that you offer to sales? Is that kind of how you see it? Jason: Yeah. We offer a product in the form of the insight packages but it’s also the service. Service that goes with it where again, we serve as essentially internal consultant to help them along. If you take just the product-centric approach, you just deliver an insight package and you’re like, “Good luck. It’s [00:19:35]. Have at it.” What we do is we deliver the product and then we partner with them and say, “Okay, here’s what we see. Now, remember you’re talking about this going on in the channel last year and our note show that there’s been a lot of competitive activity in this area. Here’s some of the question that we have. You’re the expert, so what do you think?” What we found is that working together like that, we tend to get pretty good results versus just leaving these guys on an island to kind of figure it out themselves because they virtually always know the answer but sometimes it’s up to us using these products and then offering the service is to ask question that maybe aren’t getting asked. A lot of times, we find out that they know the answer it’s just that you kind of have to ask the question. Brian: Is that often like, “I was using XYZ report. Could you break this down by county instead of just by whatever because I feel there’s more people living in the East side of town and the average is here or […] the whole county. I really just need this one county because that’s where everyone lives. Is that really underserved? Blah, blah, blah,” that kind of stuff and then you guys will go off and work with them for more of that detail then maybe you release that back into the product as a feature if it seems like a one-off or something. Is that how it works? Jason: It’s actually a very fluid process. An example of what you just described is exactly what happens if hey come to us with questions. But we also do it where we flip it around because a lot of products that we create are more aggregate discussion tools. We don’t design a lot within our primary visualization package. To really get into the weeds and everything just becomes overwhelming. We have other tools like your traditional [00:21:22] pivot table to kind of dig into that stuff. But the exact example that you just gave, they will ask us those questions, but we will also flip the script and say, “Hey, we saw that the mechanical chain in the Northeast is up 50%,” I’m just making up a number, “and at a higher level, you can see that but when we segment it out, here’s what we see. Not only when we break this down to this level, we see that’s specifically being driven by A, B and C.” That gets to where I push heavier at my team to do root cause analysis. That’s really where we provide value is by digging into it and asking questions like that. Again, operating from the lens of trying to solve a problem or answer a question or root cause something in conjunction with the business. A lot of times, we will ask those questions and at the same time, they will ask us, which is great. It’s amazing because you get the better solution faster. Brian: I think that’s great. I’ve worked on several different tools that have varying sophisticated means of doing root cause analysis and I think it’s a really powerful way to bring some why to a what that has happened in the past. Most of the time, why is really where the money is at. The value comes in being able to understand why. A lot of times, we don’t have all the data. You can’t know for sure but a lot of times I tend to say, “Our guess, if they’re just going to make a WAG—a wild ass guess—then our guess, as long as we qualify what ingredients went into the pie, our guess may be better than any WAG.” They’re going to make one already. If they’re going to make a decision here and go off gut, there is maybe a chance they’re right and their experience will say something. But maybe our elementary root cause analysis, which we can improve over time, will actually be better and we can get out of the total guessing game and start with something that’s kind of a macro ballpark thing. Then overtime, you can improve that analysis as new data becomes available or maybe learn about how two variables are related in the business and you can bring that knowledge into the system. I totally hear what you’re saying. It’s a nice mix of internal product plus services and also, it sounds like it gets you guys do good discovery work as well. You guys are not just responding to questions but you’re maybe asking them questions together as a group. You kind of work through what opportunities maybe latent that no one’s talking about by asking questions using data to do that. Jason: Yeah. In the lens that we’ve been talking through, this is really sales-centric, but this applies to any group that we interact with. We have the same level of proactive discussion with any group that we interact with. In some of these, in our market research side, it’s 100% proactive. We’re going out there scouring for information and trying to see the other things that we see. That one it’s completely proactive and now we bring insights to the business and say, “What do you guys think?” The sales one is the most fun because, let’s be honest, there’s no business if you’re not selling anything and nothing happens until a sale is made. Brian: Right. I get that. You talked about other clients, do you work at all with the actual hardware, is there any IoT type of analytics going on with the boilers and machinery that you guys create? Jason: We’re early in that process. We actually are getting ready to go down that task very soon. On the hardware side, we tend to not have as much involvement. That’s really more on the engineering group. I think for any manufacturer product or engineering groups probably going to be the most involved in that. But obviously, we get involved into the discussions of answering the fundamental question. What are we actually going to do with this data when we collect it? Because as you can imagine, IoT can spit out a lot of data real quick. They can become incredibly burdensome very quickly if you don’t have a plan on how to manage it. But then, if you’re going to go through the effort of managing that, you got to be able to say, “What are we going to do with this?” Brian: Yeah. I guess the first thing that would come to mind for me would be predictive maintenance, like, “Is it going to break down soon?” I worked on a cooling company that does cooling and really as the guy told me is like, “We’re not selling refrigeration. We’re selling consistent temperature to our clients. It’s not really about coolers and all of that, so we need to deliver consistent temperature. If we don’t do that, they lose products, they can lose whatever is being stored in cold storage.” That is significant business. I’m sure for you guys, it’s heat, you want to sell heat so how do you get in front if there’s a maintenance plan or whatever, how do you stay on top of that kind of stuff? Jason: Absolutely. Brian: [00:26:13] IoT. One of my clients used this word one time, which I now use all the time which is like, “We don’t want a metrics toilet.” An example of you can get to a metrics toilet really quickly with every stat under the gun and how many ounces of water per minute through this pipe, that’s great because that’ll help me do, as a sales guy or as a technician, how am I going to use that information just because there’s a sensor on that pipe. It’s working something around like, “Oh, there’s a sensor. Put the data in the grid.” Jason: I’m going to have to borrow that. I’ll give credit whenever I use ‘metrics toilet,’ that’s a pretty good one. I may actually [00:26:56]. Brian: Nice. Tell me, where does it go from here? You had mentioned like, “Oh, the competitive edge, maybe it’s closing.” Or maybe you guys feel your competitors are all kind of maybe they’re doing the same thing that you guys are doing and we are all aware of where the data can be used to drive the business. Are there other places where you see design or technology like predictive analytics or machine learning and some of these other new technologies that are out there to help drive predictions and things like that? Are you guys leveraging any of that or have plans to look to the future? What does that look like? I know you probably can’t talk about everything but maybe broadly. Jason: Absolutely. I would say that that’s content that’s definitely, if it’s not already being done then it’s on our radar. We’ve got a pretty talented team here that goes a lot of your traditional data science turf. As you can probably surmise in this conversation, is in addition to having all skills, we’re probably the most heavily focused on the business side. As we say, we explore opportunities for a lot of this. We always look at it, again, like machine learning. Great, but we got to make sure it’s very powerful stuff. We got to make sure that whatever we’re embarking upon, because we have finite work capacity, if you pursue something, machine learning, it means we’re not doing something else. It’s not to say that it’s not important, but we really have to be able to answer to that question. Again, come back to, “This is our anchor. What are we going to do with it?” I love this stuff. I love the stats. I love machine learning, AI, all that stuff. If you’re not careful, you can really quickly get into an academic exercise that we think is really cool. “Oh wow, look at this. We’ve got this awesome algorithm here. It does all this magical stuff,” and then the business looks at it and goes, “Yeah, so what? I don’t care. How does that generate revenue? How does that improve our margins? How does that reduce our cost? How does that enable to build the sales pipeline?” If we can’t answer those base questions and we don’t get alignment, that’s probably the most important thing is executive buy-in on exactly what we’re going to be working on, why it’s important. No, we don’t pursue it but those things are most definitely, as with any analytics teams today, I think that that content is definitely being done and/or on your radar. Brian: You make a really good point. Sometimes I almost hesitate to ask the question. But I think it’s an exciting space in terms of predictive capability and removing viable analysis and what we call time tool time in the design world, there is there. But at the same time, you make a really good point which is again, these are tools that need to be leveraged to service an opportunity or a problem. The goal is not to go do the machine learning, the goal is to solve a business problem by which machine learning maybe applied a better […] do it, reduce cost or reduce effort, speed, something like that. I completely respect that. I’m glad to hear that you guy are looking that as not a leading step. I know there’s conflicting signals out there. I’ve been talking to people in the International Institute for Analytics about this and at the same time you hear a lot of stuff which is, “If AI is not part of your strategy, you’re going to be missing out,” and boards just want to hear that people are doing AI. At the same time, you’ve got academic exercises going on, you’ve got people trying to take on massive like, “We’re going to shoot for the moon,” and it’s like, “You don’t even have an airplane and you’re trying to go to the moon with this thing. Show us a small win if you’re going to do an investment in AI.” It’s okay to go try it out and say, “Let’s do a small thing but let’s try to solve a business problem or have some definable output that we’re looking to do here such that we’re not just writing code and doing experiments.” I hear there’s a problem with people putting this on their resume. It’s like people just want to have machine learning. Everyone’s a data scientist now that used to stay in analytics. [00:30:47] It’s scary in the sense of just wasting opportunity and wasting money because at some point, your smarter competitors are going to be saying, “This is a new hammer. Let’s find some nails that we can use for it. But we think […] right nails and it needs to be the right application before we whack at it. It’s not just […].” Jason: I really like your point because again, if my peers were listening to this they will laugh because they say, “We are professionals of this trade and the tools that we might want to use might not be the right tool to use for a specific job.” I couldn’t agree more with that sentiment. It’s one of those core philosophies that I have and share with my team. Also to it is with the AI. I think that you truly made a very astute observation here and comment in that, I think a lot of companies do feel compelled to have to make significant investment in AI like today. It’s not to say that there’s not merit. There clearly is plenty of merit and plenty of potential there, but kind of your point, I really believe that it’s much more beneficial when you really minimize the risk of project and budget flow and minimize overall project risk. You take that small bite and try a little bit, then try a little bit more. When you get to win, socialize the win, and your executives feel comfortable because I’ve done it on the analytics side. I went for a big bang approach and after nine months they were like, “Hey, man. Where’s the output?” All you need is to get bit by that once and then you realize that small quick wins are very effective because at its core, it’s really important to get executive buy-in. A lot of executives are not willing to wait nine months or a year for something when they’re expecting to see at three months. I totally agree with your sentiment. Brian: When you talked about the wins, I totally understand if you’re close to it and maybe hard to remember those, but is there a particular story or time where something in the product and the insights that you guys put out to your customers that it was like a real win, like a sales guy said something to you or maybe an executive said something to you about how this moved the needle, like this was a memorable moment for us. Like, “I changed a customer’s mind with this,” or, “We closed the sale that we never would have been looking over here if we didn’t do it.” Do you have any anecdotes like that that you can share? Jason: One that we had recently, again, just for confidentiality purposes I can’t get too deep. Brian: Sure. Jason: We did have one recently where we just basically revamped our insights packages that we distribute to our internal team. We really, really gathered feedback. We had version one, we gathered ton of feedback, kind of refined, iterated, got the feedback without making it a major release. Got feedback, refined it, refined it, and then what we did was, with a small group, we got that beta in their hand, they look at it and they’re like, “This is great. This is exactly what we need.” Because what we were doing, what we found was—I’m sure you’ve experienced this—everybody wants their own part of things. Everybody wants certain view of a report or they want certain insights or whatever it is, and it’s great. But if you have limited resources, really high-powered resources like an analytics team or data science team, you’re going to look at the opportunity cost of trying to do one of these one-offs, we were getting a ton of report flow. Again, what I tell my team, I don’t mean to be derogatory to the DI guys in this comment, but my team’s side, I always tell them, “We don’t create value if we’re just creating reports. We create value when we’re actually partnering with business to extract insights, identify opportunities amidst all that stuff that goes well with it.” What we realized though is that, what started out as a nice, clean, three- or four-page insights package and blow it up to like 20 and [34:21] doesn’t that meet our original criteria? Essentially, what we do is once we have the rationalization enough to say, “Okay, we’ve got all these stuffs right across 20 pages. We can actually distill it down to four pages.” It will give you the exact same information, but it might not look the exact way that you wanted it to look. The question becomes, are you willing to deal with less stuff and maybe have it look a little different, but you’ll get it in a much more concise package that you’re actually able to use and process? What we found out is that a lot of people were doing these packages and getting the reports that they want but they weren’t actually using them to drive decision-making because they can’t see the paragraph or the block of text story before. They look at it and they’re like, “I don’t know what the hell to do with this.” We would dial that in and it just been a screaming success. It’s really nice to have it where something like that you see the evolution of it. This is just one of those things that we had, and this was kind of a side package or wasn’t a primary, but it’s become a primary now because it’s so effective. Brian: Would you say that when you talk about reducing this, is the report like a PDF or do they access it through a browser the insights package? Jason: Yeah, we have the options to do both. We distribute it initially via PDF, sometimes along with our comments if there’s really, really big stuff in there. We’ll say, “Hey, we see this. Here’s a driver. Here’s a supplemental package.” A lot of times it’s PDF first and then if they want to go on the web, start interacting with it, they can do that. Those are nice, but the reality is a lot of them don’t do that which is understandable. Brian: You took it from 20 pages down to 4, is that what you’re saying? Jason: Yeah. Same information. Brian: This is a really good point. I’ve frequently had clients come in and they’re with data products and their concern is information overload. We’ve heard this a lot of times and the irony is that, the issue is usually not information overload. It’s usually a design problem that the information is not presented properly because sometimes, it can increase the density and increase the utility and usability, not the other way around. In fact, removing data can actually make it worse. A basic example of that is when you’re trying to compare A and B. If A and B are not on the same, what we call a viewport like in a browser world, it would be within the browser window there. When you require someone to toggle between two screens, they have to change context and visually, your eye can process the information a lot better when it’s within proximity. Sometimes, increasing the density actually will give you a better design. It takes more care in how you do it, but it’s not always about information overload, “Oh, it’s too crazy.” They may not get it on the first time but your sales people, if they’re looking at this stuff weekly or monthly, at some point they’re going to be pretty comfortable with this. I always tell my clients, “You need to look at the switch frequency as well because if it’s going to be used a lot, you can actually get more detailed and you can really push the, what you might see as complexity or the information density, can go up because they’re going to get familiar with the formatting. Typically, the density is actually going to probably improve the utility as long as care is given to the choices. But having that eyeball comparison without having to change pages and all of that, typically you’re going to give a better story as a broad rule. I like hearing that you guys went down in page count, up in density and in turn a better user experience at the end so that’s great. I think we’re about done here. I don’t have too many questions for you, but this is super great. One of the reasons I contacted Jason is because I remember seeing this quote, “Jason is like a category five hurricane in the data analytics world.” I’m like, “Who the hell is this guy? No one talks like that.” I started reading your stuff and I enjoyed watching your LinkedIn social posts and things like that. Where can people find out more about you? You’re obviously on LinkedIn, I can put LinkedIn in the show notes and stuff, but are you on Twitter, any social media places they can follow you? Jason: No, actually, I’m not on Twitter. But the best place unquestionably is going to be LinkedIn. I’m pretty involved there. I do like to engage. If you want to direct message me with questions, just talk, meetup, connect, whatever it is, I welcome that. I love the platform, it’s a great family. I just really started using it maybe nine months ago, really getting into it. It’s been great meeting guys like yourself. It’s actually phenomenal. Brian: Cool. I’ll put a link to Jason’s LinkedIn profile on there and you guys can find him. I recommend, especially if you’re in an internal analytics type of role at your company, to follow Jason and then check out what he has to say on there. This has been great. Thanks for coming on the show. I look forward to meeting you at some point in person. Jason: Dude, thank you for having me on here. I really appreciate it.

Jason Krantz is the Director of Business Analytics & Insights for the 135-year old company, Weil McLain and Marley Engineered Products. While the company is responsible for helping keeping homes and businesses warm, Jason is responsible for the creation and growth of analytical capabilities at Weil McLain, and was recognized in 2017 as a “Top 40 Under 40” in the HVAC industry. I'm not surprised given his posts on LinkedIn; Jason seems very focused on satisfying his internal customers and ensuring that there is practical business value anchoring their analytics initiatives. We talked about: How Jason’s team keeps their data accessible and relevant to the issue they need to solve for their customer. How Jason strives to keep the information simple and clean for the customer. How does Jason help drive analytics in a company culture with a lot of legacy (from its people to its parts) The importance of focusing on context How Jason drives his team to be business partners, and not report generators Resources and Links: Jason Krantz on LinkedIn Quotes from Jason Krantz: "You realize that small quick wins are very effective because, at its core, it’s really important to get executive buy-in." "I’m a huge fan of simplicity. As analytics pros, we could very easily make very complex, very intricate models, and just, 'Oh, look at how smart we are.' It doesn’t help our customers. …we only use about two or three different visual types and we use mostly the exact same visual set-up. I can train a sales rep for probably five minutes on all of our reporting because if you understand one, you’re going to understand everything. That gets to the theme again of just simplicity. Don’t over complicate, keep it simple, keep it clean.” "…To get buy-in, you really got to have your business case, even to your internal customers, really dialed in. If you just bring them a bunch of crap, that’s how you’re going to lose credibility. They’re going to be like, “I don’t have the time to waste with you,” even though we’re trying to be helpful.” "What my team and I do is we really help companies weaponize their data assets." Episode Transcript Brian: Jason, are you there? Jason: I’m here my friend. Brian: Sweet. How’s it going? Jason: It’s going very well today. How’s your Friday going? Brian: I’m doing awesome. We’re going to talk a little bit about analytics. Is it Wile McLain or Weil McLain? Jason: I say Weil McLain. If I’ve been saying it wrong, I’ve been saying it wrong for a while. Brian: As I recall from my musical training, I think in German, the second syllable is the one that says its name. I guess it would be Wile McLain, like if it was W-I-E-L it would be ‘Weil.’ But I don’t know. Its anglicized as they come over the pond. Jason: I’m going to go with you on that when you sound like an expert. Brian: Nice. Well, you sound like an expert in analytics at Weil McLain. Tell us about what you’re doing over there. We met on LinkedIn, I’ve been enjoying your postings on the social feed about your approach. You seem really passionate about what you’re doing and I’m like, “I don’t know who this guy is, but that was really interesting.” I just have. Tell us about the company, what they do. I know they’re in heating, right? Jason: Yes, absolutely. The company I work for, and I work in the HVAC space, we’re a 135-year-old boiler manufacturer. Whether you realize it or not, you probably have one of our products in your house or building or very close to where you live. What my team and I do is we really help companies weaponize their data assets. As you know, a lot of companies are very skilled at acquiring data since the Big Data Movement. But the reality is that a lot of these companies don’t know what to do with all this data. That’s where we really come in. What I always tell my team and our business partners that we work with internally and externally is that our focus is on solving business problems. In order to do that, you have to identify what is the business problem that you’re trying to solve or strategic agenda that you’re trying to address. In order to do that, you really have to be anchored in the biz. Again, that’s just my perspective, but if you’re in the business day in, day out, you develop this very keen stand of what the business would need to accomplish its objectives. Just like right now, we are based in the marketing group and it’s a great spot to be. I’m a firm believer that every analytics team should be based in the business for a reason that I just talked about. But what that does being business-first is that gives us a great lens to look at data from. Sometimes analytics people would be IT-centric and they can do a lot of academic work against the data set or different data sets. But the business might look at the output and be like, “Yeah, that doesn’t help us.” We always, always, always start with, “What is the business problem we’re trying to solve or strategy we’re looking to address?” It also helps us when it comes to curating data also. That’s one of our primary response [00:03:21] this too, is to look for different data sets both internal and external that can help us identify strategic opportunities. It sounds really unsexy, I’m not going to lie. I think some of my LinkedIn post just say that data is boring. It really is. It’s mind-numbing, too, about 85% of my customers. But that’s the important part is understanding what do our customers need and that’s really the lens that we look at this through. We are a service provider, our customers are internal and external, we have customers just like any other business. We have to take this really boring, but really potent product in data and make it accessible to them. That’s really where we use design to really try to make that magic happen. Brian: I love that you said, “Trying to understand what the problem is.” This is something we talk about on the mailing list quite a bit. In fact, falling in love with the problem is a good basis for doing good work instead of kind of jumping to solutions or feeling […]. As I tell my clients sometimes like, “Our job is not to go and visualize the data. It’s not […] available for someone to put into another tool or whatever the heck it is. The job is to find an insight that already is used. Probably they’re already in your job and you’re there to make […] if you’re doing internal analytics. Help them do a better job at what they’re doing, offer more value. You need to figure out how to work that into their life.” For example, for you guys then, your customer, I assume is it primarily sales people that you’re working with? Who are your customers and your […]? Jason: Yes. Great question. One of our biggest customers is sales. Sales has been one of my biggest customers for the past 10 years of my career. I’m very intimately involved with the sales team, sales operation, sales optimization, insight gathering, pricing, things like that, but also marketing. We do a lot in terms of competitive intelligence gathering, market research. We also do a lot of operations in finance obviously related to the prices, that sort of thing. We really touch all areas of the business, but without question, our biggest customers are going to be sales and marketing. Brian: If you were to bring a new initiative like, “Hey, we have access to…” I don’t know what it might be but for you maybe your point, [might be a line 00:05:49] of data that could actually give them more leverage. We know what the negotiation brings, better than […], we know we kind of have an idea now from what the industry is doing for their sales such that we can now tell the CRM like, “This is your […] or something.” When do you get that sales person involved? Do you deliver a solution and get feedback? Do you bring [...] early and say, “Hey, we think we can tell you more about how to do better pricing on the spot with this thing.” Do you bring them in or when do they fit into your process? Jason: Great question. A lot of times because we spend so much time actually in the trenches, that’s one of things I think is unique about the way that I design my teams to do analytics. It’s not like hand off product and we’re like, “Godspeed. Good luck.” Once we deliver a solution, we’re actually in the trenches with the business trying to implement what we’re talking about because it just works better. The team work is just more effective and they know that they’ve got back up, they know they’ve got air support. Really, a lot of times when we come up with something new, a lot of times we will frame it from the lens like, “Hey, we know that we’ve got opportunity A or issue B, or whatever it is. This has been an issue or an opportunity for months or years or whatever.” We think that we’ve identified something that could help us in solving that issue or realizing the potential of that opportunity and then it becomes, “Okay, let’s sit down and talk about, do you agree that this might actually help us in this process?” Because the one thing that I’ve learned is, in order to get buy-in, you really, really got to have your business case, even to your internal customers, really dialed in. If you just bring them a bunch of crap, that’s how you’re going to lose credibility. They’re going to be like, “I don’t have the time to waste with you,” even though we’re trying to be helpful. What we found out is if you really dial in what are we trying to address with this, just as you would with any business case, and you bring that to them, I have found that they tend to be much more receptive. It’s not to say there’s not going to be resistance—resistance comes with any change—but we found that typically framing it from that lens and saying, “We’re trying to solve a problem that you have, we think that this data will help,” that’s a great starting point. Brian: Do you have an example of a before/after with that? I don’t want you to get into proprietary stuff you can’t talk about but is there like a, “Before they did it this way,” and then we brought them in and said, “Hey, we think we can get […].” and how you went [00:08:19]. Jason: Yeah. What I can talk about is just the manner in which we distribute sales information, specifically insights. I think that, for your listeners, this is going to ring true to a lot of sales forces. I know for all them that I’ve been in or worked with, this case was true 100% of the time. But one of the things that, again, keeping the customer-centric focus, that if you look at your sales reps, a lot of time is you’re going to be what I call casual data consumers. By that, I mean that these are guys and gals that aren’t really into data day in and day out like guys like you and I or some of the listeners maybe. What we have to do is, as I always encourage my team to take empathetic lens and look at, “Okay, if we give them what our first […] is going to look like, how are they going to interpret this?” A lot of times, to be honest, it’s not very good. Now that’s where we have to look at internally and kind of rationalize and say, “Okay, let’s find this. One of us will find [00:09:14].” But one example of that is traditionally, sales reps and sales teams will get the information in a flat Excel table. Just lots of rows and columns and just gibberish everywhere. That’s a very financial-centric view of sales data. But the reality is—I don’t know about the rest of mankind but I know for myself—I can’t remember much more than 10 numbers. The mental computational cost of extracting insights is just gargantuan. What happens is, I just don’t even bother to do it. I’m just like, “Yeah, whatever.” An equivalent of that is, you know if you get a big block of text in email? Even though if you took that same block of text and broke it up into two paragraphs or two sentence segments which is very easy to read when you put the effort in, but for me, if I get a big block of text, I’m not even going to read that. It’s kind of one of the same things that we see on the sales side. What we do is just say, “You know what? There’s a lot of really good information here and we need to make it digestible for our customers.” That’s where we found traditionally, visualization can be an incredibly effective tool to communicate insights to this casual data audience, to this casual data consumer. Brian: Do you have to work through the visuals with them? Do they tend to get it the first time? Is it a process of you share, “Here’s a report or here’s some new view on X.” How do you know if the visualization is actually allowing them to pull the insight out of what other [00:10:46] broad data? How do you know they’re actually “getting it”? Jason: That’s a great question. I’m a huge fan of simplicity. As analytics pros, we could very easily make very complex, very intricate models, and just, “Oh, look at how smart we are.” It doesn’t help our customers. It doesn’t help anything. Really what we do—this is going to get to the theme of simplicity—is we only use about two or three different visual types and we use mostly the exact same visual set-up. Just to kind of frame it, what I’m a big fan of is a simple bar chart. There’s more details attached to it but to the right of the bar chart, we’ll typically put a tabular data set. What we do is, as you think in US at least, we start in that left-hand side of the page or we […]. What we do is we look at the visual real estate. We say, “Our customers are going to start in the left-hand side. We want them to look at the bar chart because it allows them to very rapidly assimilate it at a high-level what’s going on.” It’s great at communicating at top-level churn very quickly but the trade-off is, is this horrible imprecision. You have no precision at all. What we like to do is then we address that issue by putting a simple table, very clean, very simple table over to the right. What that does is that then provides the precision that the customers are seeing in most financial-centric tables. What we found that does is that we have to train our sales team on one set-up and then that set-up is used virtually universally on all of our solutions. As an example, I can train a sales rep for probably five minutes on all of our reporting because if you understand one, you’re going to understand everything. That gets to the theme again of just simplicity. Don’t over complicate, keep it simple, keep it clean. Brian: I think those are good. A lot of times, when I work with engineering clients, they fall in love with consistency. I guess one point to maybe just the contrary of this is that, I think consistency is generally a good rule with design. We want to minimize unnecessary change but at the same time, I would recommend to listeners is to always look at context first, and context should always come in. Let’s say Jason comes up with report number 12 and they have 11 now or whatever, and it doesn’t feel right for number 11. That’s a place where a designer would probably push for, “Well, no. The 12th one actually needs to be different because it’s not […] 11th and even though it’s not consistent, in this context, we don’t need it to win. This version will deliver the usability and the utility that we’re looking for better than the other 11 will.” In general, I think it’s smart to not get creative unnecessarily with meaningless ink on the screen like, “Let’s try it this way. Let’s change the color palette. I’m tired of this.” Those are not good reasons for […], you’re just introducing noise and it’s unnecessary. But I like that you guys are thinking about simplicity and trying to reuse templates and not looking at it as a creative tableau. Ironically, people think it’s a creative “design” tool, but at the same time with all those weapons, you have a lot of different weapons you can use in that toolkit and part of that is knowing how to use this. It’s the same thing with Photoshop, a million buttons and all this stuff. The Photoshop doesn’t make you a designer. It’s being aware of your customer’s pain and the problems they need and knowing when to use all those filters and all those different things that it can do. I like that you guys are looking into that simplicity and reusing templates when it’s meaningful to do so. Jason: You bring up some great points and I 100% agree. My team that’s listening there, they’ll laugh because I beat it in their heads, “Context. Context, context, context.” Both in design as you’ve talked but especially with numbers in general. Like, “If I give you a number, a billion, that doesn’t mean anything, you got to have context.” I’d say the same is true for design just as you articulated. Great point. Brian: Where does the impetus for “everybody is a data company, everybody wants to do analytics”? But then there’s operationalizing that, there’s getting buy-in, leadership behind it. Where does that come from in your org? Where is the interest in taking a 130-year-old company and getting it to care about this? Where does that come from, your influence and all of that? Jason: That was driven by our current president because he saw it as part of a digital transformation. Obviously, this was an essential component of that. Obviously, we do a lot with analytics, but we’re also involved in a lot of other digital components that lead to that overall digital maturation. Analytics is a very, very big part of what we do but it’s not all that we do. We serve as kind of that quarterback for a lot of the digital initiatives to help basically, guide them through the process. Because even though some of the nuances of each of this project, each one will have its own nuances, they all come back to data. Data is the currency. We found out pretty quickly that if you want to stay relevant in this day and age, you need to be digitally evolved but more importantly, as you look at it, do you [compare the 00:16:02] advantage that you can derive from analytics? I would argue that gap is slowly closing known certain industries like manufacturing, but we probably have a little bit more runway [00:16:10] it. But for a lot of industries, analytics is becoming table stakes. It’s one of those where you can certainly expect incremental value and competitive advantage, but the question becomes how much longer. That was kind of the impetus of saying, “Hey, we got to get this going sooner rather than later.” Brian: Do you have people in sales that are resistant to using the reporting or taking advantage of your information or is it pretty ingrained in the company culture that it’s like, “This is a tool. Why would you not want to use it?” Or did you guys have a […] getting adoption? Jason: Yeah. I would say anytime you’re going through a transformation of this magnitude, it’s hard and I would say especially for other manufacturers. I found in general, manufacturing in general, tends to be one of the laggards industry-wise in analytical maturity. Unquestionably, it’s tough for no other reason than change is tough. You’re taking legacy plants, legacy steer pieces, legacy process, and some people has been around the company for decades potentially, and we’re asking them to change almost on a dime on their time scale how they do business. It’s not that it’s right or wrong but what we try to point out is that, as I always say, we have to acknowledge the past. We’ve been where we’ve been, we’ve been successful at where we been. But there’s been more change in the past two or three years than maybe you’ve seen in the past 15-20 years. In order to stay relevant, you really have to be ready to evolve, not only evolve but evolve quickly. But I have to openly acknowledge that that’s hard. It’s a hard proposition for a lot of people. Again, it comes down to change management and managing not only expectations but supporting that change. Change doesn’t happen by itself, we have to support that. That’s really what we try to coach through. The way that we try to do that is by developing a product with our customers. I’m sure as you can […], if you force something upon somebody, it doesn’t get received too well. But if you develop it in conjunction with them and do tie it around their needs, it tends to get better adaptation. Brian: You used the word product in there and I’m interested, do you see the outputs of your efforts? Primarily, it’s BI reporting as I understand it. Do you look at that as the product that you offer to sales? Is that kind of how you see it? Jason: Yeah. We offer a product in the form of the insight packages but it’s also the service. Service that goes with it where again, we serve as essentially internal consultant to help them along. If you take just the product-centric approach, you just deliver an insight package and you’re like, “Good luck. It’s [00:19:35]. Have at it.” What we do is we deliver the product and then we partner with them and say, “Okay, here’s what we see. Now, remember you’re talking about this going on in the channel last year and our note show that there’s been a lot of competitive activity in this area. Here’s some of the question that we have. You’re the expert, so what do you think?” What we found is that working together like that, we tend to get pretty good results versus just leaving these guys on an island to kind of figure it out themselves because they virtually always know the answer but sometimes it’s up to us using these products and then offering the service is to ask question that maybe aren’t getting asked. A lot of times, we find out that they know the answer it’s just that you kind of have to ask the question. Brian: Is that often like, “I was using XYZ report. Could you break this down by county instead of just by whatever because I feel there’s more people living in the East side of town and the average is here or […] the whole county. I really just need this one county because that’s where everyone lives. Is that really underserved? Blah, blah, blah,” that kind of stuff and then you guys will go off and work with them for more of that detail then maybe you release that back into the product as a feature if it seems like a one-off or something. Is that how it works? Jason: It’s actually a very fluid process. An example of what you just described is exactly what happens if hey come to us with questions. But we also do it where we flip it around because a lot of products that we create are more aggregate discussion tools. We don’t design a lot within our primary visualization package. To really get into the weeds and everything just becomes overwhelming. We have other tools like your traditional [00:21:22] pivot table to kind of dig into that stuff. But the exact example that you just gave, they will ask us those questions, but we will also flip the script and say, “Hey, we saw that the mechanical chain in the Northeast is up 50%,” I’m just making up a number, “and at a higher level, you can see that but when we segment it out, here’s what we see. Not only when we break this down to this level, we see that’s specifically being driven by A, B and C.” That gets to where I push heavier at my team to do root cause analysis. That’s really where we provide value is by digging into it and asking questions like that. Again, operating from the lens of trying to solve a problem or answer a question or root cause something in conjunction with the business. A lot of times, we will ask those questions and at the same time, they will ask us, which is great. It’s amazing because you get the better solution faster. Brian: I think that’s great. I’ve worked on several different tools that have varying sophisticated means of doing root cause analysis and I think it’s a really powerful way to bring some why to a what that has happened in the past. Most of the time, why is really where the money is at. The value comes in being able to understand why. A lot of times, we don’t have all the data. You can’t know for sure but a lot of times I tend to say, “Our guess, if they’re just going to make a WAG—a wild ass guess—then our guess, as long as we qualify what ingredients went into the pie, our guess may be better than any WAG.” They’re going to make one already. If they’re going to make a decision here and go off gut, there is maybe a chance they’re right and their experience will say something. But maybe our elementary root cause analysis, which we can improve over time, will actually be better and we can get out of the total guessing game and start with something that’s kind of a macro ballpark thing. Then overtime, you can improve that analysis as new data becomes available or maybe learn about how two variables are related in the business and you can bring that knowledge into the system. I totally hear what you’re saying. It’s a nice mix of internal product plus services and also, it sounds like it gets you guys do good discovery work as well. You guys are not just responding to questions but you’re maybe asking them questions together as a group. You kind of work through what opportunities maybe latent that no one’s talking about by asking questions using data to do that. Jason: Yeah. In the lens that we’ve been talking through, this is really sales-centric, but this applies to any group that we interact with. We have the same level of proactive discussion with any group that we interact with. In some of these, in our market research side, it’s 100% proactive. We’re going out there scouring for information and trying to see the other things that we see. That one it’s completely proactive and now we bring insights to the business and say, “What do you guys think?” The sales one is the most fun because, let’s be honest, there’s no business if you’re not selling anything and nothing happens until a sale is made. Brian: Right. I get that. You talked about other clients, do you work at all with the actual hardware, is there any IoT type of analytics going on with the boilers and machinery that you guys create? Jason: We’re early in that process. We actually are getting ready to go down that task very soon. On the hardware side, we tend to not have as much involvement. That’s really more on the engineering group. I think for any manufacturer product or engineering groups probably going to be the most involved in that. But obviously, we get involved into the discussions of answering the fundamental question. What are we actually going to do with this data when we collect it? Because as you can imagine, IoT can spit out a lot of data real quick. They can become incredibly burdensome very quickly if you don’t have a plan on how to manage it. But then, if you’re going to go through the effort of managing that, you got to be able to say, “What are we going to do with this?” Brian: Yeah. I guess the first thing that would come to mind for me would be predictive maintenance, like, “Is it going to break down soon?” I worked on a cooling company that does cooling and really as the guy told me is like, “We’re not selling refrigeration. We’re selling consistent temperature to our clients. It’s not really about coolers and all of that, so we need to deliver consistent temperature. If we don’t do that, they lose products, they can lose whatever is being stored in cold storage.” That is significant business. I’m sure for you guys, it’s heat, you want to sell heat so how do you get in front if there’s a maintenance plan or whatever, how do you stay on top of that kind of stuff? Jason: Absolutely. Brian: [00:26:13] IoT. One of my clients used this word one time, which I now use all the time which is like, “We don’t want a metrics toilet.” An example of you can get to a metrics toilet really quickly with every stat under the gun and how many ounces of water per minute through this pipe, that’s great because that’ll help me do, as a sales guy or as a technician, how am I going to use that information just because there’s a sensor on that pipe. It’s working something around like, “Oh, there’s a sensor. Put the data in the grid.” Jason: I’m going to have to borrow that. I’ll give credit whenever I use ‘metrics toilet,’ that’s a pretty good one. I may actually [00:26:56]. Brian: Nice. Tell me, where does it go from here? You had mentioned like, “Oh, the competitive edge, maybe it’s closing.” Or maybe you guys feel your competitors are all kind of maybe they’re doing the same thing that you guys are doing and we are all aware of where the data can be used to drive the business. Are there other places where you see design or technology like predictive analytics or machine learning and some of these other new technologies that are out there to help drive predictions and things like that? Are you guys leveraging any of that or have plans to look to the future? What does that look like? I know you probably can’t talk about everything but maybe broadly. Jason: Absolutely. I would say that that’s content that’s definitely, if it’s not already being done then it’s on our radar. We’ve got a pretty talented team here that goes a lot of your traditional data science turf. As you can probably surmise in this conversation, is in addition to having all skills, we’re probably the most heavily focused on the business side. As we say, we explore opportunities for a lot of this. We always look at it, again, like machine learning. Great, but we got to make sure it’s very powerful stuff. We got to make sure that whatever we’re embarking upon, because we have finite work capacity, if you pursue something, machine learning, it means we’re not doing something else. It’s not to say that it’s not important, but we really have to be able to answer to that question. Again, come back to, “This is our anchor. What are we going to do with it?” I love this stuff. I love the stats. I love machine learning, AI, all that stuff. If you’re not careful, you can really quickly get into an academic exercise that we think is really cool. “Oh wow, look at this. We’ve got this awesome algorithm here. It does all this magical stuff,” and then the business looks at it and goes, “Yeah, so what? I don’t care. How does that generate revenue? How does that improve our margins? How does that reduce our cost? How does that enable to build the sales pipeline?” If we can’t answer those base questions and we don’t get alignment, that’s probably the most important thing is executive buy-in on exactly what we’re going to be working on, why it’s important. No, we don’t pursue it but those things are most definitely, as with any analytics teams today, I think that that content is definitely being done and/or on your radar. Brian: You make a really good point. Sometimes I almost hesitate to ask the question. But I think it’s an exciting space in terms of predictive capability and removing viable analysis and what we call time tool time in the design world, there is there. But at the same time, you make a really good point which is again, these are tools that need to be leveraged to service an opportunity or a problem. The goal is not to go do the machine learning, the goal is to solve a business problem by which machine learning maybe applied a better […] do it, reduce cost or reduce effort, speed, something like that. I completely respect that. I’m glad to hear that you guy are looking that as not a leading step. I know there’s conflicting signals out there. I’ve been talking to people in the International Institute for Analytics about this and at the same time you hear a lot of stuff which is, “If AI is not part of your strategy, you’re going to be missing out,” and boards just want to hear that people are doing AI. At the same time, you’ve got academic exercises going on, you’ve got people trying to take on massive like, “We’re going to shoot for the moon,” and it’s like, “You don’t even have an airplane and you’re trying to go to the moon with this thing. Show us a small win if you’re going to do an investment in AI.” It’s okay to go try it out and say, “Let’s do a small thing but let’s try to solve a business problem or have some definable output that we’re looking to do here such that we’re not just writing code and doing experiments.” I hear there’s a problem with people putting this on their resume. It’s like people just want to have machine learning. Everyone’s a data scientist now that used to stay in analytics. [00:30:47] It’s scary in the sense of just wasting opportunity and wasting money because at some point, your smarter competitors are going to be saying, “This is a new hammer. Let’s find some nails that we can use for it. But we think […] right nails and it needs to be the right application before we whack at it. It’s not just […].” Jason: I really like your point because again, if my peers were listening to this they will laugh because they say, “We are professionals of this trade and the tools that we might want to use might not be the right tool to use for a specific job.” I couldn’t agree more with that sentiment. It’s one of those core philosophies that I have and share with my team. Also to it is with the AI. I think that you truly made a very astute observation here and comment in that, I think a lot of companies do feel compelled to have to make significant investment in AI like today. It’s not to say that there’s not merit. There clearly is plenty of merit and plenty of potential there, but kind of your point, I really believe that it’s much more beneficial when you really minimize the risk of project and budget flow and minimize overall project risk. You take that small bite and try a little bit, then try a little bit more. When you get to win, socialize the win, and your executives feel comfortable because I’ve done it on the analytics side. I went for a big bang approach and after nine months they were like, “Hey, man. Where’s the output?” All you need is to get bit by that once and then you realize that small quick wins are very effective because at its core, it’s really important to get executive buy-in. A lot of executives are not willing to wait nine months or a year for something when they’re expecting to see at three months. I totally agree with your sentiment. Brian: When you talked about the wins, I totally understand if you’re close to it and maybe hard to remember those, but is there a particular story or time where something in the product and the insights that you guys put out to your customers that it was like a real win, like a sales guy said something to you or maybe an executive said something to you about how this moved the needle, like this was a memorable moment for us. Like, “I changed a customer’s mind with this,” or, “We closed the sale that we never would have been looking over here if we didn’t do it.” Do you have any anecdotes like that that you can share? Jason: One that we had recently, again, just for confidentiality purposes I can’t get too deep. Brian: Sure. Jason: We did have one recently where we just basically revamped our insights packages that we distribute to our internal team. We really, really gathered feedback. We had version one, we gathered ton of feedback, kind of refined, iterated, got the feedback without making it a major release. Got feedback, refined it, refined it, and then what we did was, with a small group, we got that beta in their hand, they look at it and they’re like, “This is great. This is exactly what we need.” Because what we were doing, what we found was—I’m sure you’ve experienced this—everybody wants their own part of things. Everybody wants certain view of a report or they want certain insights or whatever it is, and it’s great. But if you have limited resources, really high-powered resources like an analytics team or data science team, you’re going to look at the opportunity cost of trying to do one of these one-offs, we were getting a ton of report flow. Again, what I tell my team, I don’t mean to be derogatory to the DI guys in this comment, but my team’s side, I always tell them, “We don’t create value if we’re just creating reports. We create value when we’re actually partnering with business to extract insights, identify opportunities amidst all that stuff that goes well with it.” What we realized though is that, what started out as a nice, clean, three- or four-page insights package and blow it up to like 20 and [34:21] doesn’t that meet our original criteria? Essentially, what we do is once we have the rationalization enough to say, “Okay, we’ve got all these stuffs right across 20 pages. We can actually distill it down to four pages.” It will give you the exact same information, but it might not look the exact way that you wanted it to look. The question becomes, are you willing to deal with less stuff and maybe have it look a little different, but you’ll get it in a much more concise package that you’re actually able to use and process? What we found out is that a lot of people were doing these packages and getting the reports that they want but they weren’t actually using them to drive decision-making because they can’t see the paragraph or the block of text story before. They look at it and they’re like, “I don’t know what the hell to do with this.” We would dial that in and it just been a screaming success. It’s really nice to have it where something like that you see the evolution of it. This is just one of those things that we had, and this was kind of a side package or wasn’t a primary, but it’s become a primary now because it’s so effective. Brian: Would you say that when you talk about reducing this, is the report like a PDF or do they access it through a browser the insights package? Jason: Yeah, we have the options to do both. We distribute it initially via PDF, sometimes along with our comments if there’s really, really big stuff in there. We’ll say, “Hey, we see this. Here’s a driver. Here’s a supplemental package.” A lot of times it’s PDF first and then if they want to go on the web, start interacting with it, they can do that. Those are nice, but the reality is a lot of them don’t do that which is understandable. Brian: You took it from 20 pages down to 4, is that what you’re saying? Jason: Yeah. Same information. Brian: This is a really good point. I’ve frequently had clients come in and they’re with data products and their concern is information overload. We’ve heard this a lot of times and the irony is that, the issue is usually not information overload. It’s usually a design problem that the information is not presented properly because sometimes, it can increase the density and increase the utility and usability, not the other way around. In fact, removing data can actually make it worse. A basic example of that is when you’re trying to compare A and B. If A and B are not on the same, what we call a viewport like in a browser world, it would be within the browser window there. When you require someone to toggle between two screens, they have to change context and visually, your eye can process the information a lot better when it’s within proximity. Sometimes, increasing the density actually will give you a better design. It takes more care in how you do it, but it’s not always about information overload, “Oh, it’s too crazy.” They may not get it on the first time but your sales people, if they’re looking at this stuff weekly or monthly, at some point they’re going to be pretty comfortable with this. I always tell my clients, “You need to look at the switch frequency as well because if it’s going to be used a lot, you can actually get more detailed and you can really push the, what you might see as complexity or the information density, can go up because they’re going to get familiar with the formatting. Typically, the density is actually going to probably improve the utility as long as care is given to the choices. But having that eyeball comparison without having to change pages and all of that, typically you’re going to give a better story as a broad rule. I like hearing that you guys went down in page count, up in density and in turn a better user experience at the end so that’s great. I think we’re about done here. I don’t have too many questions for you, but this is super great. One of the reasons I contacted Jason is because I remember seeing this quote, “Jason is like a category five hurricane in the data analytics world.” I’m like, “Who the hell is this guy? No one talks like that.” I started reading your stuff and I enjoyed watching your LinkedIn social posts and things like that. Where can people find out more about you? You’re obviously on LinkedIn, I can put LinkedIn in the show notes and stuff, but are you on Twitter, any social media places they can follow you? Jason: No, actually, I’m not on Twitter. But the best place unquestionably is going to be LinkedIn. I’m pretty involved there. I do like to engage. If you want to direct message me with questions, just talk, meetup, connect, whatever it is, I welcome that. I love the platform, it’s a great family. I just really started using it maybe nine months ago, really getting into it. It’s been great meeting guys like yourself. It’s actually phenomenal. Brian: Cool. I’ll put a link to Jason’s LinkedIn profile on there and you guys can find him. I recommend, especially if you’re in an internal analytics type of role at your company, to follow Jason and then check out what he has to say on there. This has been great. Thanks for coming on the show. I look forward to meeting you at some point in person. Jason: Dude, thank you for having me on here. I really appreciate it. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Experiencing Data with Brian O’Neill. If you did enjoy it, please consider sharing it with #experiencingdata. To get future podcast updates or to subscribe to Brian’s mailing list where he shares his insights on designing valuable enterprise data products and applications, visit designingforanalytics.com/podcast. Never forget to look up the online HTML CheatSheet when you forget how to write an image, a table or an iframe or any other tag in HTML! [bws_google_captcha] Subscribe for Podcast Updates Get updates on new episodes of Experiencing Data plus my occasional insights on design and UX for custom enterprise data products and apps. Email Address [text-blocks id="eu-consent-checkbox-textblock" plain="1"]

Ah, it feels good to be back! This week, the girls are in your ears again for the latest and greatest dating episode- why are people so mean when it comes to online dating? Sarah reads THE most insane interaction between two people on one app, and Anna brings the science once again about our brains on dating apps. Trying to find your soul mate is hard, but wading through a sea of digital strangers is made MUCH more frustrating when some of those strangers seem to have forgotten basic manners. The girls later on share their favorite puns, and play “would you respond” with some real life pick up lines. It’s hilariously infuriating. Do I want to go halfsies on making a baby with you, Jason? No. Am I ready to bumble? Maybe. So come join us, and stay mad!

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Todd: Now Jason, you're an artist.Jason: That's right, yep.Todd: What kind of artist are you?Jason: I draw all sorts of things, but mostly I like to draw on the computer, using photoshop.Todd: Oh, really.Jason: Things like that.Todd: OK, was it hard to learn?Jason: Oh, not really. It's just practice. You know if you feel like you want to draw one day, that means you're an artist I guess.Todd: Wow, I didn't even know that I mean I do pictures for the website, but I didn't know you could draw on the computer.Jason: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I've made my own website as well, so.Todd: Cool. OK, what's the website address?Jason: www.geocities.com/replicated280781Todd: OK.Jason: A bit of a mouthful though.Todd: Yeah, I'll have to write that one down. That's pretty tough.Jason: No worries. OK.Todd: So when people go to your website what can they see?Jason: Not a hell of a lot but I did draw everything on there myself, every button every single piece of graphic you see on there I drew, just photographs of me, my friends, drawings that I've done and posted up and not really much else, but it's good if you just want to check it out. Check some photos out.Todd: 'm sure it's great. Actually, I'm going to check it out later tonight. So, I'll link it from my web page to your web page.Jason: OK.Todd: Is it OK if people write to you?Jason: Sure. Not a problem. Not a problem. I'd enjoy it.

Hey everyone! The Brainberries are back and ready to serve up this week's episode. With so much to cover in the weeks they were gone, this episode has been split into a two-parter. Part one covers high school romance, Solo, Deadpool, Jason No-moa and the recent 8bit family reunion at Comicpalooza in Houston,TX. All this and so much more are hot off the menu, so Check Us Out! 50% Girly, 50% Geeky, 110% Awesome!

Today's episode is different from our usual interviews. We sat down with Jason Altman, Regional Vice President of Enterprise Holdings, to talk about how the company moves corporate social responsibility forward to the community. Jason shares his unique experiences and examples of how their organization is involved in doing social good. Check out the episode below. CONTACT: jasonaltman@ehi.com TRANSCRIPTION: Kenny: Hey, welcome back, friends. This is Kenny Jahng, host of Generosity Labs podcast, where we talk about stewardship, giving and non-profit funding for churches as well as ministries. One of the things that we typically do is talk to pastors and other church leaders. Today, I'm excited because we're going to pivot a little bit on the conversation. I brought on today as a guest, Jason Altman from Enterprise Holdings, an organization in the marketplace so, that we can get a look on the inside of how corporate America and the marketplace is really looking at social good about volunteerism and other things related. So, welcome to the show today, Jason. Great to have you here today. Jason: Hey, thanks Kenny. Thanks so much for having me. Kenny: So right off the bat, let's talk about, who you are, what you do, what's your role at Enterprise Holdings? So, give us the 30-second rundown of Enterprise Holdings and your role there at the company. Jason: Well, Enterprise Holdings provides a complete transportation solutions to large organizations right down to individuals. You probably know us best from enterprise rent-a-car or a car rental division. We've got an enterprise, national and LMO. I'm the regional vice president over central New Jersey in Staten Island. So, I've got responsibility for other stores and individuals that serve those markets. Kenny: Nice. And, one of the things that I think people don't understand is that, you are more than just car rentals, right? As the transport systems. Why don't we just talk about that first, just for a second. What are some of the other things that you guys do? And then, also, the profile of the company itself is a little bit different. It's not a public company, right? Jason: No, it's privately held. So your first question, when I say complete transportation solutions, we've got a leasing division, fleet services. Gosh, we've got a car-share, you know, ride share. We've got a bunch of different divisions of the organization up to and including a retail car sales. We actually sell our cars if you're in the market. Kenny: You guys are one of the largest re-sellers of cars in the country, right? That's a little bit unknown fact. A hidden gem, basically. And then your structure, you are not a public company. You are private companies still, even though it's a behemoth of the brands that you own. It's quite amazing that you're still private. Jason: Yeah. Privately held. One very committed family out of St Louis, Missouri. Kenny: That's one of the things for me, my radar went off a little bit because it is one of those stories that because it's private because it's family-driven then culture and values usually come into play in a business setting. Is that something that you can share with us? What's the uniqueness of that which has helped enterprise flourish from that perspective? Jason: Yeah. The company was certainly founded on a set of values and the larger we got becoming this behemoth, this you say, you know, ownership got concerned that we were straying from those values. So they established a set of criteria which really measures the operators against the degree to which they live and exhibit those values. And a lot of that involves supporting the communities. We serve to do good. But there's certainly operations and other things, but a great deal of it has to do with corporate social responsibility.

Summary: These young kids today have no idea how good they have it! The lads discuss some old school stuff they had to deal with back in their day. Like Dial-up internet and non HD TV. ***Countdown to Episode 100 is in full swing! Don’t forget to call and leave us a message swearing up shit storm! Calls will be aired on Episode 100. Here’s the number: 985-265-7726*** In the Studio: Dan Ken Critter Special Guest - Rachel Fry Cocktail du Jour: Classic Jack Rose - 2 oz. Applejack Brandy - 0.75 oz. Lime Juice - 0.75 oz. Grenadine Add all ingredients into a shaker with ice. Shake it like Taylor Swift shaking off the immense amount of hate she gets a on a daily basis, which is a lot so shake that shit hard. Strain into a coupe glass or stemmed cocktail glass. Garnish with a lime wheel and explain to people how there was enough room on that door for both Jack and Rose at the end of Titanic. Quote du Jour: Jason - You got to try these fingerling potatoes, with the salmon and the creme fresh. I am telling Fulvio, tongue boner! Fulvio - I all ready ate. I just want coffee. Jason - No you got to try fingerling potatoes. Fulvio - I don't want any fingerling potatoes. Jason - Ah, Bring him a plate. Fulvio - Look I am telling you my order. I want my coffee, milk, two sugars. You bring me any wierd looking fucking potatoes. I'll kill you both right here. Alright? I want my coffee hot! Jason - Fulvio? Fulvio - SHUT UP! Fulvio and Jason – Gun Shy Charity: Wildlife Conservation Network: www.wildnet.org/ Links: Facebook – www.facebook.com/wympodcast Twitter – twitter.com/wymshow – @wymshow iTunes – itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/watch…d1065059804?mt=2 Sound Cloud –@watchyourmouthpodcast Stitcher – www.stitcher.com/podcast/watch-your-mouth-podcast Spreaker – www.spreaker.com/show/watch-your-mouth-podcast Merchandise – www.cafepress.com/wymmerch

Jason Jaynes: @jasoncjaynes Jeff Wilson: @ProfDumpster Show Notes: 00:53 - “Professor Dumpster” and Founding Kasita 05:33 - The Startup Industry 07:45 - Building the Kasita Team and Creating the Design 12:25 - Integrating Devices 16:33 - Challenges of Building These Ecosystems 24:36 - Controlling the Ecosystem: Will there be third-party developers and applications? 30:16 - Device Cohesion and User Experience 33:23 - Privacy Resources: Data for the People: How to Make Our Post-Privacy Economy Work for You by Andreas Weigend Kasita is hiring! Transcript: CHARLES: Hello, everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 78. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at The Frontside and your podcast host-in-training. With me today are Jeff and Jason from Kasita. Now, Kasita is one of the most exciting products that I think we've gotten to work on here at Frontside in the last five years. We're going to be just talking about it because, I think it touches on a lot of the aspects of what makes software development and startups and just the emerging economy exciting. I'm really thankful that we get to have you all on the podcast. Welcome Jeff and welcome Jason. JEFF: Thanks for having us. JASON: Excited to be here. Thanks, Charles. CHARLES: Now Jeff, you are the founder of Kasita, the CEO and I believe your official title over there is 'Professor Dumpster.' Maybe you could actually unpack for us a little bit of what does that title mean? How did Kasita come about and what is it today? JEFF: A couple of years ago, I did a radical, social experiment around housing. I went and sold everything I own for a dollar an item out of a 3000-square foot house and moved into a 33-square foot used trash dumpster for a year. The idea of that project was to live in 1% the size of an average American home and try to use 1% the energy and water of the average American home. The project took a little bit of a twist, you might say and about part way through it when the dumpster started getting tricked out, I started thinking about the whole nature of housing and how we need to do something different and how that grand future probably would not be a gated community of dumpsters. CHARLES: Now, I assume you cleaned out the dumpster before you actually went to live in it. JEFF: Yeah, it was a fixer-upper. We give it a bit of a scrub and did some testing to make sure there wasn't anything nasty left in there. That went for about a year and a couple of months after that, I actually first set down with Jason because he was the only person that I knew in the entire startup scene, in the entire world. He said, "Wilson, you had some crazy ass ideas like this dumpster thing you told me about. This one might actually work, this Kasita thing." Here we are today, we're working together. CHARLES: Wow. This was something you just did on a lark. You didn't have the idea of starting this business but it was actually through the process of actually living in this dumpster for a year that the idea emerged or was there a master plan going in? JEFF: I don't know, Jason do you remember any kind of master plan when I first told you about the dumpster? JASON: No. When we first met to talk about the dumpster, it was an early morning, I believe in 2010 or 2011 and you're incubating the idea. At that point in time, there was nothing on your mind or you aren't looking towards the future of housing at all. You were just trying to figure out how you were going to move into a dumpster and people thought you would be crazy. Of course, I've validate it and I thought people would think you would be crazy. CHARLES: That is a pretty radical idea, the future of housing being 1% of what it is now. How do you see that playing out? How is that possible? How do you shift people's mindset away from that? JEFF: One of the bigger things we're trying to do with Kasita, there needs to be a massive shift in the wider way that we live in our homes. As everything else is moving towards on demand and as a service and as everything's being sort of productized, those are some of the core ideas behind Kasita. We think about Kasita a lot more like an iPhone or a Tesla than we would think about it as a single family home or an apartment block or even a micro-unit. That's why Jason and I are standing together here today is I represent a lot of ways, a kind of vision and origin story of Kasita but in a lot of ways, Jason represents the future of the software and integrated IoT that's going into these things. CHARLES: There is definitely a lot going into these things. I remember when Jason first started telling me about it because it is like an iPhone or a Tesla but, I think especially the Tesla is a great analogy because you have not just like a normal software or even really a hardware project, you've got architectural concerns. You've got manufacturing concerns. You've got, I assumed geopolitical concerns in terms of the politics around zoning and housing and real estate, all rolled up into a big startup. When I think startup, I think let's get a web application up and running and we're providing some service. This is cross-cutting at least five industries, it feels like if not more. I'm curious, what's been the experience in terms of wrangling that aspect because I think it is very unique in a startup today but it got me wondering is this going to be the normal in five years? JEFF: We've seen a movement recently in the venture community. Even a few years ago when we first started raising money was highly-regulated industries are hard, hardware is hard, "Thank you very much. We're going to go looking for our next two Stanford computer science dropouts to shove into a wee work and not have to deal with all of this kind of stuff." I think I've seen a shift to where people from the individual level up to the folks funding these things, see the massive opportunity in highly-regulated complex problems like housing and you're right. Jason and I are looking out over our shop floor here where we've got guys out there that are plumbers or traditional electricians all the way upstairs here to folks that have been mayor pro tem of large cities with PhDs. Bridging all of those individuals into a startup culture and then looking at the complexity of the landscape from a regulatory standpoint, autonomous cars are a breeze relative to the kind of complexity we're dealing with. CHARLES: Did you know this complexity walking in or was it a classic overoptimism? JEFF: No, it wasn't classic overoptimism. I'm always asked, "Are you a designer? Are you an architect? Are you a real estate developer? Are you a technology guy?" and I think if I would have been any of those besides a guy living in a dumpster, I wouldn't ever been crazy enough to try this. It's one of our core precepts as well. Jason had never worked with IoT stuff before. Our head of manufacturing used to build LEDs for Philips. Our quality guy inspected Cadillacs. Our manufacturing engineer built Boeing jets. The ideas that we're not pulling a lot of people from these traditional industries, we're pulling smart people that are passionate about our mission and to solve this, what is really a Rubik's Cube of a problem. JASON: Yeah, I think the other thing to add to that that Jeff is not getting himself enough credit is that from very early on, Jeff always looked at Kasita as a product that was going to incorporate multiple disciplines. He was very careful in how he orchestrate it and built the team to make sure that he was bringing the right expertise and the right areas together and then forcing those different disciplines to figure out how to meld and work together to build the Kasita. But the Kasita was from the beginning just about building a micro-urban home. It was about building a product of which part of that was a home, where people live obviously, but there's a whole lot more to it that we're working towards. I think even go back and Jeff, it might be relevant for you to talk a little bit about the approach that you took to just create an initial design for Kasita, which I think is revolutionary in itself. JEFF: A big part of our DNA was product from conception. When I was living in the dumpster, I recruited a couple of the top architects in the country really to help me turn that dumpster into a home. The way you're trained in architecture school, I think a lot of folks come in there with Buckminster Fuller kind of dreams and you're told pretty quick that you better bring things up to code and you better make things that sell or you're not going to eat when you get out of here. The idea was that we would start off with a product designer and not design a home. The kind of struggles in the dumpster taught me that we needed to go at a different approach so I went and recruited an industrial designer. One of the requirements for that person that he or she had never designed a home. This person had lived under a staircase and never designed a home so I said, "You're perfect." CHARLES: I like that and I'm curious, Jason from your perspective, what was it like to have gone through this? It sounds like what you're doing is asking people to bring their expertise but not their set of expectations like the industrial designer. What was it like for you coming primarily from the software development world to step into this pan-technological realm and what was that experience like and what were the things that stretched you and you found surprising? JASON: I think early on, I realized that it was going to be a bit more challenging maybe than I thought. Really, what it required was me to think outside of my discipline. Obviously, not only from the perspective of what we were doing on the IoT frontend, how we were melding software and hardware together but then going all the way over to the physical building structure and thinking about on a weekly, daily, hourly basis on how we are interacting with the other disciplines. An early example was, and this is one that I remember that's quite funny is one area that we wanted to make sure that we had covered in our research and understanding from IoT perspective was smart locks and how we were going to provide a smart locks for the data. We went out and did a lot of investigation, brought a number of leading smart lock solutions into the lab and tested them and narrow our list down. Then I recall vividly walking over to the architects to excitedly tell them we had selected our smart lock that we were going to use. They very quickly inform me that that lock wouldn't work because we needed a mortise lock and not a standard door lock. I realized that you can't work in a vacuum and just solve your problems. You have to be working together to make sure the solutions and the products you're selecting at work in accord with the overall design. That's continued to manifest itself. Every day, I'm down on the manufacturing floor, working directly with the electricians and others to make sure that our equipment is placed properly, where are we going to place our equipment, how are we routing around plumbing and pipes and other things that exist there and how are we locating things properly. It's an ongoing experience, which has definitely taken me out of my traditional software role but it's done so in a very exciting way and I've enjoyed it. It's just realizing that you have to actively be communicating across the organization with all groups and really, you can't take anything for granted. CHARLES: The number of different disciplines and technologies is really staggering, even if you limit it to just considering the set of devices that you're integrating. I was actually hoping we could talk a little bit about that. Now inside each Kasita, at least the ones that you're building right now, how many different devices do you have? How do you take all these different devices and turn them into a product or integrate them into something that itself is one product? JASON: If you were just to look at the technology bill of materials, what the products are that we're incorporating into our current Kasita design, there is around 50 different products and product parts that we're bringing together to build out the technology solution. If you narrow that down to what the end user is actually seeing and looking at, there are about seven noticeable products that the end user would see or they would recognize everything from a Sonos connecting amplifier to an Amazon Dot to a Nest Thermostat. Obviously, getting to that list of bill of materials and deciding on that 'subassembly of technology pieces,' took us quite some time in a number of iterations and a lot of outside engagement and talking to experts and trying to decide what were the best devices to bring in. But the other side of the equation was something that we kind of decided very early on in the process and kind of thinking the world of first principles was that, we wanted to make sure that Kasita was the primary interface to the user. We didn't want somebody else sitting between us and the end user. We wanted to be able to work with other products but we still felt at the end of the day that the end user, when they were living inside of a Kasita, when they were controlling the Kasita, when they were changing the state of the Kasita, they needed to go through our interface. With that as an initial first principle, you can begin to imagine that all the other parts of the system architecture and the way that we design things, the way that we select products and built things, it begin to derive themselves. Everything from that, immediately we needed an app and lo and behold. We were able, fortunately to work with you guys, the Frontside, to help us get our initial app concept up and going. It went from there and I can talk more about it. CHARLES: I think I really like that as a first principle. I really just want to inject a vigorous sense of agreement because I think it's so important, especially when this is the place where you're living. You want to imbue that inhabitant with a sense of ownership and control. I don't know if you would be able to do that if there were a bunch of different touch points and it didn't feel integrated under one product. In other words, this is my home, this is my Kasita. Is that the idea behind making sure that there was really only one interface? JEFF: We prefer to say 'Mi Kasita.' CHARLES: I love it. JASON: Absolutely, that's the idea. I think from a consumer perspective, if you've ever personally gone out and ventured through the halls of Home Depot or Best Buy and purchased some smart products off the shelf and brought them into your house and try to get them up and running, you very quickly learn that. It's not only challenging to get these devices connected in a way that you can control them but there's also this notion of there's an app for that. Every physical device you ended up putting in your how, has its own app for control and that becomes very overwhelming in a very short amount of time for the user. We did not want that to be the case with the Kasita. We wanted them to walk in the door from day one and immediately feel at home and feel like they have complete control of the Kasita, in much the same way when you go purchase an iPhone or you purchase a new Garmin watch or you purchase a new Android device, you're up and running with that ecosystem and you're interacting with that interface. We wanted people to be interacting with the Kasita interface to control their home because that's part of the product. CHARLES: I like that. It must present some unique challenges because I think you said it best. Every single device that you have comes with its own ecosystem and that ecosystem has its own APIs, its own web interfaces, its own applications and though there are walls around those ecosystems, what are some of the challenges you encounter in trying to punch holes through those walls so that you can hand information and control from one ecosystem to the other while providing a seamless experience to the user? JEFF: When you're talking about that, Jason one of the things that is often left out of this equation is at this specific point in space-time, it's very difficult to do that. But then to have any sort of semblance of planning for the future and future-proofing the system as developers usually call it, one of the reasons why you don't see a lot of Nest thermostats in multifamily development is because a developer knows that they're not going to ever have to replace a normal light switch. If it's a Lutron switch or if it is a Nest thermostat at some point, it's going to have to be replaced. Not only the physical replacement of the stuff but from a software side, making sure that we can continue to communicate with these devices in the future, I think is a big problem to solve. JASON: That's absolutely right. I think very early on, we recognize and realize that we were going to have to build software and a component that acted, if you will as a gateway for sitting between the end user and the end devices and facilitated the control of the end devices. Obviously, being able to accomplish that, one of the challenges is and I think, Charles you've seen this in your world because I know you've got experience with IoT is this whole proliferation of standards and protocols like if we're going to talk to the lightbulb or we're talking via Z-Wave or ZigBee, or do we have to go through a Philips Hue hub because that's the only way to actually communicate with it. Is there a separate way via Thread or Bluetooth you communicate with this device? In a very quick fashion, you get to this point where you can imagine that you've got a physical hardware controller that has four different radios in talking to four different device types. One for talking to Z-Wave, one for talking to ZigBee and it becomes overwhelming. We did a lot of research across the protocols that were available, mapping them across the devices. Early on, we were excited about the potential of Z-Wave but more recently, where we've shifted our attention quite honestly is looking for devices and device manufacturers who see the opportunity and Wi-Fi enabling their hardware devices and then providing either direct control of those devices in an IP-centric way over a local area network or even through the cloud. What that affords us back to Jeff's future-proofing concept is if you have Wi-Fi up and running and the device can get on the Wi-Fi network and there's a way to communicate with it, then it makes it a lot easier for us to sit between the user and that device and send commands and control that device. The other side of that, which I think continues to be a challenge and will be a challenged for the foreseeable future is a lot of the device manufacturers to the point that you brought up are still forcing you to go through the cloud to communicate with their devices. They don't allow for a local area network communication directly with the device and there's good reasons for doing that. But what that means is if you lose internet connectivity, you no longer have control of that device. CHARLES: Obviously, you've got probably pretty strict criteria about what it takes for a device to be integrated with Kasita. Is that a nonstarter right there? JASON: It's actually not. A nonstarter with be the device communicates via protocol that we can't interface with or the device works over a Wi-Fi network but has no API for controlling cloud or local. The third piece of that equation and fundamentally is the final nonstarter and really probably should be the first one and it's one that we take into consideration every time is that there should be a physical override for the user if internet connectivity is lost. What I mean by that is if we select a smart switch and the smart switch goes offline and there's no more connectivity, the user has still be able to walk to the wall and press the power button and the light should come on. There always has to be an ability for the user to fall back to the same old fashioned physical control in the absence of Internet connectivity or local area network connectivity. But the primary things are ability to fall back to physical control, ability to communicate over Wi-Fi or standard IP-based protocol, then the third one would be some form of API access, either remotely via the cloud or locally via the local area network. CHARLES: Wow, that's actually a great list. It's got me wondering, obviously you've encountered devices that have fallen on both sides of that divide. Do you feel like that's just a blip and we're going to be trending more towards devices that are happily and easily integrated or are we still seeing some moving and jostling as people maybe try and corner little parts of the market and make their device deliberately make it not easy so that you'll try and force people into that ecosystem? JASON: The latter, however we have two guerillas in the market right now that I think are helping drive the other direction in the way of Amazon and Google with Google Home and Amazon Echo. What they're doing is they're saying, "If we sit in the center and one of the interfaces for voice control for the user to control their home, then we're only going to work with devices that we can communicate with and that we can control through the cloud," and quite frankly, what that does is it puts the burden back on the device manufacturer. You could actually say three if you threw Apple in there. I don't want to leave Apple out with HomeKit. But my point is that the device manufacturer now has to find a way that the end device can either communicate via standard TCP/IP network-based connectivity that we all know and love from a developer community perspective or they have to insert a hub into the equation that can handle that form of communication and then communicate over its own proprietary wireless connection, which is in the case of Philips Hue, it's exactly what they do. JEFF: I would draw analogies here to some people get really tired of this, particularly the real estate people of me talking about the iPhone but that kind of leap into and integrated piece of hardware and software. There were certain things happening in 2007 that didn't make the iPhone or something like it, something that might happen but something that had to happen. This kind of cold death to the universe that we could see with all of these walled-off ecosystems, go in their directions and iterating into a space to a nobody owns anything and nothing talks, I think Kasita is a solution to that to where we're looking like combine all this stuff under one roof and build a single user experience, much like not having to pull your Palm Pilot out of one pocket, you're Rio MP3 player out of another and you're your Razor or whatever it was out of the other like integrating into a single experience, rather than a sort of convenience, which is what a lot of the IoT spaces right now in these walled-off ecosystems. CHARLES: That actually makes a lot of sense and clarifies it in my mind quite a bit. It clarifies one thing but then, immediately raises new questions. When the iPhone first came out, you had a set of basic integrations between your MP3 player and your web browsing and your calling and calendaring, so and so forth. Then, I don't know what was it like, a year and a half later, they actually came out with an SDK so that you could actually develop apps -- third-party developers could actually develop. Sell and distribute in apps -- to the iPhone. We're all really happy with the way that worked out. I guess my question is does this analogy carry forward then also for Kasita? Is there a future where you have third-party developers who are actually selling integrations or apps that would run on this integrated IoT product that is Kasita or am I stretching the analogy too far? JASON: I think the analogy is good with the exception that we're not looking to control the entire IoT ecosystem in a way that Apple maybe had look to control the mobile phone ecosystem with providing all of that in one box and the iPhone. We want to work with numerous hardware providers and even from that perspective, numerous folks that want to provide interfaces into our system. As we develop an architected Kasita technology system, we've taken an API-first approach and that's allowed us to build our user application layer right on top of that API but in the future, we see the opportunity to work with third-party developers to extend that, up on that and build their own interfaces to the end user. Then on the other side of the equation, if you think about what's actually controlling the devices, we're architecting that system in a way that a hardware manufacturer could take an SDK and add Kasita support for their product directly in and make it plug and play when it gets to the Kasita. We definitely see the opportunity, Charles to reach out and allow everybody to be part of this. We consider it quite frankly, a necessary thing. But we don't also want to pretend that we would look to control the whole ecosystem because we just don't have that level of scale, if you will. JEFF: And you know -- CHARLES: Not yet. JEFF: Yeah, and we try to keep our ego in the dumpster, so to speak as well. CHARLES: What would a third-party app even look like in the context of Kasita? Have you thought of like what are some things that you might be able to do? JEFF: If you don't want to call it directly an app, I think the first stage -- Jason and I haven't talked about this -- maybe more like an Alexa Skill to where you can have the Kasita do certain sets of tasks around a particular experience, which we're already building into the system the idea of moods but I don't know in terms of apps. JASON: Yeah, it's actually a really good idea. Even though we haven't talked about it, it always scares me a little bit when my boss is coming up with ideas on the fly that we have to implement but -- JEFF: But actually we will have our first -- we're going to call it a skill app, a Kasita skill app. We'll be releasing that say, October 1st. CHARLES: You heard it here first, folks. JASON: To take Jeff's idea a little further, I think that is an interesting concept when you think about the Kasita as being an end product and you provide interfaces whether it's the ability for people to write skills that tie into the Amazon Echo or an IFTTT-type capability. The Kasita, as a whole can be controlled -- all the lighting, the sound, all the different temperature, etcetera -- so now you're asking end users to write skills, to control the entire state of the building or of the home and not just doing it on a one-off basis writing skill to turn this light on and off or set the thermostat to this level. You basically box all of that together and make it much easier for people to get from Point A to Point B through our system. JEFF: Could you say that we're turning the entire Kasita into a board for people to play with, like treat the Kasita as your breadboard? JASON: I think there is some opportunity for that to the degree that will allow the user to have that much flexibility on the hardware side. I think it is still up for question but I think there's a lot of opportunity there, Charles and not only inside of the Kasita but then you can begin to see other applications as Kasita begin to multiply and people use them from many purposes. Let's take a sample of somebody owns 10 Kasitas and they use them as Airbnb properties and they allow users that live in Kasitas to come in for a short period of time into their Kasita and bring their Kasita profile with them. Immediately, they can make the Airbnb Kasita feel exactly like their Kasita feels when they're at home. Those are some interesting opportunities and ways that we see this technology potentially evolving. CHARLES: So it will have the same moods, the same behaviors. Any customizations or third-party extensions would also be in effect provided they were software-based? JASON: Yep. CHARLES: That would actually be quite amazing. I guess the other question I have in terms of hackability of Kasita is we're very interested in the IoT space and very interested in these products and we have some side projects here at Frontside also like I do a bunch of hobby stuff at home, where I try to integrate a bunch of these things. But one of the things that I really like about what you all are doing is that it's very much 'omakase' in the sense of there's an option of 10 smart locks, there's an option of this thermostat, there's an option of a million different devices but what we've done or what you've done is selected ones that we know are going to work well together. We've built the software, the control systems, both computer control systems and human control systems to get them to work together as a cohesive product. I would love to do is say, "I would just like to buy that product for my house," even though my lame tinkerings with smart switches, smart locks and audio controls and lighting, which are fun and gratifying the first few times but they don't really play nice together, give you that super sweet feeling. JEFF: This goes to the overall philosophy of Kasita. We want a turnkey, one-click housing solution. Not only for finding you a place to rent so that you're not fishing around on Craigslist for roommate or having to pay some outrageous fee in New York. You don't have to go mattress shopping. At some point, you should just have to show up with your iPhone and your toothbrush. When you start thinking about the technology inside, it's almost like folks don't really care what kind of Foxconn chip is in their iPhone or even if it was Foxconn that put it there, they just want it to work and they want it to be seamless and turnkey. It sets up a whole philosophy around, not only our smart kid in the Kasitas but it shouldn't even be a smart kid anymore. At some point, it should just be an experience so ultimately, what sort of UX inside of the Kasita are all of these things bringing you. I shouldn't have to really look at a blue glowing dot that lights up every time I walk by it to be at a comfortable temperature in my house. I shouldn't need a black tube over on my desktop that I yell commands at. I just talk or it should anticipate those actions. That's a future that I look forward to in Kasita to where we move away from having to tinker with devices and even knowing what those devices are to a true-like depth of experience. CHARLES: I like that a lot. Now, one thing that we haven't covered. We touched on it a little bit at the very beginning of the show when we talked about people feeling in control and feeling like they're truly the owner of the space is the issue of privacy. Obviously, there's a lot of a user's behavior that's going to be passing through software channels as their intentions move through the devices in the Kasita. Of course, all of these devices, they have their own ecosystems, their own vendors so how do you ensure that people's data is going to be protected, especially as it moves through potentially a bunch of different public clouds. JEFF: Yes, we gave a lot of thoughts to this. Actually, Jason put me on to this book called 'Data for the People' by Andreas Weigend. We took some inspiration on that, from that and set out on what we call it the four cornerstones of this future of the connected home. Those are agency, transparency, security and then the actual benefit that you get from this home. I gave a talk at South by called, 'The final frontier of AI is in your living room.' If that isn't black mirror, creepy enough to attract enough people, I don't know what is. In that talk, I won't take them out of order. First, we need to make sure that we're focused on transparency. Do people know what's actually being collected on them? I've been toting around my iPhone for 10 years. I'm pretty sure they know everywhere that I have been since then. I'm not really all that sure. Second, agency. Can I actually do something about it? Are we allowing people the ability to switch off, switch on, control where that data goes? Then third, security. Are we providing another level of security above what you would get out of the box? I'll let Jason talk about that in a minute. Then, the last is benefit. Am I getting ads? Am I getting a slightly better news feed focused on ads or am I getting my rent subsidized? Am I getting a better user experience, better sleep within the connected home? Those are the ways that we think about that in a bigger level. CHARLES: Is the idea that there's no benefit than it's exploitative? You want to make sure that there's benefit? JASON: Yeah, I think that onus is if you taking individual data and using it, then the onus is on you as a data collector to try to provide benefit back to the end user. If you can't do that, then I think the question should be why are you collecting the data in the first place? our goal is really looking at it from the perspective of if we know when users are turning lights on and off and what they're setting the temperature in their house to and when they're going to sleep at night, when they're waking up because we know when they turn everything off and turn it back on -- JEFF: Or where this things on the floor are from the vacuum robot. JASON: Yeah, exactly. If we have insight into that information, how are we taking that information and combining it in a valuable way that benefits the end user? I think that's the first question that we have to ask when we start looking at the data that we're collecting. But at the same time as Jeff said, that data collection really has to be based on this notion of agency, transparency and privacy or security. An agency is simply I have control over whether my data is collected. Transparency, from the perspective of I understand how my data is being used and where it's being sent and then of course, security, I know that my data is being securely transmitted and stored. When you think about security, we spend a lot of time thinking about not only the data at rest -- once it's been collected is it properly being stored and encrypted and protected -- but then how is that data being transmitted and are we putting the proper fail safes in place to make sure that somebody else can easily gain access and take control of my home and of the things that are important to me by finding back doors into the system and ways to breach them? Those are the cornerstones that we think about and we put first and foremost in our mind as we build out our architecture, build out our system and as we begin to take that data and to turn it back in useful and interesting ways for the end user. CHARLES: I think that's really important. I think it's a great comfort to hear that you all have a framework for thinking about this so that it's going to be integrated into every aspect of it. I think it's just so important, especially when it's something as critical as the space in which you're living. It's good to hear that it's not just an afterthought but that it's something that's been integrated from the start. Well, Jeff, Jason thank you guys so much for coming by and talking with us. I really think that Kasita is an exciting product and I think that it was an exciting project, certainly for us to get to work on, even though we were only seeing a very small sliver of it. We still got to perceive the whole enchilada that you guys were working on and see that just what a unique startup that really is, not just you're moving outside of software, integrating a bunch of different devices, integrating that with a unique home that's going to be designed, architected, manufactured and then thinking, then even rolling it up a degree further about how is this going to be integrated into the urban spaces in which we live. I hope that we see more startups that really engaged all those different disciplines. I think that with the technological changes that are happening, that's more and more a possibility. The price on software, the price on materials, the price on these smart devices is all coming down so it really enables people to take on scopes that might have been just completely impossible, even with someone who's overly optimistic. I hope that people look to it as an inspiration and it really was a great project for us to work on. I also understand that if someone does want to jump into this space and get involved, you all are hiring. JEFF: That's right. We are hiring for a broad range of positions. We're expecting to be doing a lot, more hiring soon. You can go to Kasita.com/Work and at the bottom of the page, you can also see that we have an open house here in Austin every Thursday morning from 9:30 to 11:30. The folks can come in and check out the crib. CHARLES: All right. Fantastic. I certainly really enjoyed getting the tour the space, what was that? Back in March? When you revealed the baby units? JEFF: Yeah, it was March at South by. CHARLES: Yeah, it's really something to see. If you are in Austin or you live here, take the time, go see it. It's really cool. With that, I guess we'll wrap it up. Thank you everybody for listening and as always, you can get in touch with us at @Frontside on Twitter or Frontside.io or send us an email at Contact@Frontside.io. Thank you all and see you next week.

The second in a an ongoing series of fireside chats/challenges with our good friend, Jason Anarchy, in which we tackle the cult martial arts franchise: No Retreat, No Surrender! After our experience with the first film, we thought there was NO way the second film could be more ridiculous/amazing. We. Were. Wrong. Fortnight’s Challenge: Special g-g-g-ghost!

We welcome Jason Ingram to Full Circle Music studios. He is a producer, songwriter, and artist with multiple SESAC songwriter of the year awards, Dove Awards, and Grammy Awards, with more #1 Radio Hits than most ever see. His credits include Brandon Heath, Hillsong, Chris Tomlin, Tenth Avenue North, Casting Crowns, and MercyMe.He talks about the idea that “your calendar will tell me if you're a songwriter”. It is the discipline versus inspiration. Which comes first.He also shares some personal insight into his story and his journey through the hard times in the beginning of trying to make it in a new city as a professional songwriter.To get Top 10 Songwriting Tips click Here.fca_eoi_form p { width: auto; }#fca_eoi_form_269 input{max-width:9999px;}#fca_eoi_form_269 *{box-sizing:border-box;}#fca_eoi_form_269 div.fca_eoi_form_text_element,#fca_eoi_form_269 input.fca_eoi_form_input_element,#fca_eoi_form_269 input.fca_eoi_form_button_element{display:block;margin:0;padding:0;line-height:normal;font-size:14px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:normal;text-indent:0;text-shadow:none;text-decoration:none;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;width:inherit;height:inherit;background-image:none;border:none;border-radius:0;box-shadow:none;box-sizing:border-box;transition:none;outline:none;-webkit-transition:none;-webkit-appearance:none;-moz-appearance:none;color:#000;font-family:"Open Sans", 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a:hover{color:#8f8f8f !important;} AUDIO 37min:19secPodcast – Interview with hosts Seth Mosley, Chris Murphy & guest, Jason IngramSeth: Hey what's up. this is Seth Mosley, host of the Full Circle Music Show, thanks for listening. Again, this week we've got an awesome guest, one of my long time heroes of the music business, Jason Ingram, Sir Jason Ingram. He's a producer, song writer, artist, worship leader and all of the above. He has multiple awards on his mantle for Sesac songwriter of the year, he's won Dove Award producer of the year, more number ones than you can imagine and really has had, in the last several years, what has been an incredible career in the music business. And today we get to sit down and hear the story before Jason Ingram as the Jason Ingram that we know now.That's half the reason why we do this show is to kind of shine a light on the blood, sweat and tears that goes into making a successful career in the music business and there's a lot of stuff that I learnt in this episode about Jason; some stories about how he got into it and believe it or not at one time he was touring as a merch manager for a band, him and his wife were selling blood plasma just to get back home for Christmas. I'm telling you there's some stuff that you don't know that goes into making a successful song writing and producing career. So stick around and before we dive into it we wanted to thank you for listening, thank you for subscribing, go over to iTunes, leave us a good rating and review. That helps us a ton as we're getting this podcast off the ground.And for our next segment, Full Circle music trivia, the answer to last week's question: What is the highest selling album of all time? Well the answer for that is Michael Jackson Thriller. So to one of you guys who e-mailed in to trivia@fullcirclemusic.org, you get a free copy of the book ‘Hitmen'. And this week's question is: Who is the top Grammy award winner of all time? Again, who is the top Grammy award winner of all time? Email your response in to trivia@fullcirclemusic.org and this week the winner's going to take home ‘All you need to know about the music business' by Donald Passman, 8th Edition. Up to date information on new music business models including music streaming services and cloud lockers, the latest developments in digital rights and updated numbers and statistics for a traditional industry. Again, email your responses in to  trivia@fullcirclemusic.org and thanks for playing along.Alright, let's just dive into the episode, we've got Jason Ingram in here, in the house. A good friend and without even probably knowing it, mentor of mine who I've looked up to since I've moved to Nashville and song writing and production. And just track record for days, the  guy has just had hit after hit after hit and his songs are being sang in churches all around the world.  So for you to take a few minutes to come and spend with us means a lot so thank you for doing this.Jason: Yeah, it's an honourSeth: So do you want to carry us in?Chris: Yeah man, one of the things that I wanted to know from you Jason, is when did the song writing bug hit you or how long have you been doing it? Was it one of those things just where you were doodling in a notepad when you were 6 years old or even earlier or…?Jason: I started taking piano lessons in middle school but I think I was a freshman in high school when I was introduced to just chord voicings so up until then I was just learning to read music and more classical sort of training and which I wasn't excelling at but I loved music and so I just stayed at it and then I think my freshman year in high school, someone just taught me how to play chords. And think about music as chords as opposed to just reading notes on a scale. And I instantly started writing songs once I had chords, I was a songwriter…not a very good one…but from then on, yeah, I mean I was writing songs.Chris: Did it start for you at going on what you were hearing on the radio and just putting chords to that? Or was it truly like “I don't care what's going on, on the radio, I've  got my own vision that I'm…[4.06]Jason: Yeah no, I was, I was writing my own thingsChris: That's greatJason: Love songs for interest of mine, things like thatChris: Yeah, wow that's great man. So were you that guy with the guitar who got the girl because you had the guitar?Jason: Yeah…my wife…and then once I learnt chords I started leading worship as well and so my wife, we were on a little missions trip to Mexico, we lived in California and I was a  graduating senior and she was going into her junior year in high school and we went down there and I led worship at this thing that we were doing. And I didn't know her but she saw me leading worship and she knew, she told a camp counsellor that I was going to be her husband. And so, yeah, I think the guitar strummings, it helps man.Seth: AbsolutelyJason: Helps make up for other things…Chris: The lack of confidence [5.06] actually talking face to face.Jason: Massive lack of confidence, man, growing up in the church, there's so many stories that sound similar to that, it's like going up to that youth pastor or whatever and pointing, like that's going to be my guy.Seth: Did you know at that time or did you find that out later?Jason: I found that out later, we started sort of dating a bit after that but yeah, I found that out later. And she's not that kind of person, she's actually…I wasn't one of the popular kids and she was so I wouldn't have even, like gone there.Chris: Yeah, she was out of your leagueJason: She was [5.38] but yeah, I found that out later and I've just been writing songs out of a ‘heart place' you know. Ever since I first started writing songs I think that's been one of the, hopefully one of the things that people notice when they hear songs that I'm part ofChris: Yeah, yeah. And has that always come naturally to you? To be able to express your heart on paper or in a recording?Jason: I guess it has, yeah I guess it has. I've found music as the gift of…which is hard to hold onto sometimes when you've been doing something for a while and it becomes your career but there was a lot of years where the only reason I had to write a song was just to get something out. There wasn't any career in itChris: AlrightJason: And so I did that long enough that I think that it's easy for me to sort of stay in that placeChris: Yeah, yeah, I think one of the hallmarks of the songs that I know of yours, I mean from a perspective of they've got a story or they've got an intention to it and it sounds like you were saying, in those early days before anybody was paying you to write a song; or asking you to go do something that it was because you had to get something out. And I feel like that there is a trend in, at least pop music these days, where there's not necessarily a story, it's  just the feeling, it's a vibe that's going on. Do you find that you would have a harder time if you were you know, if you needed to go write the next Justin Bieber song versus writing something that has more of a, a heart pouring so to speak?Jason: I will say it, like a melody or a track or a vibe can bring out a lot of emotions so since you've mentioned Bieber…[7.16]…yeah, his most recent album is like, to me it's been the thing I've listened to the most this year. And so I just love it, I think the song writing is amazing, I think the production is phenomenal and it's emotional to me so it feels like, I feel like I can touch it. There is a lot of pop music that doesn't have that same sense to it.Chris: Yeah, maybe Justin Bieber recently is not the best of those examples but it has that pop sheen to it, necessarily more than an emotion.Jason: Yeah, what I'm kind of hearing you ask is, is it those songs that are less about the lyric and about just a vibe or something like that. Lyric is huge for me, especially in the lane that God has me in and I feel like in some regard  a lot of pop music, the lyric is real secondary to whether or not it's a hit or not right? And I think we're accountable to more, I look at songs in this lane that God has called me to, I've often called them life rafts for people and so if I'm throwing someone a life raft, if that's what God lets me do with my song, I want it to hold them up. And so our words often become people's prayers, you know, and that's phenomenal. Martin Luther said when I can't pray, I sing and we're able to throw these life rafts to people, a lot of times that don't even know what to pray and write the prayer that they need to re-engage their heart with the Lord and so it's a huge, I think a weight, that we need to carry when we're considering ‘do we have the words right?'Seth: It's not  just that when you're in a session just like settling on something because at some point, you know, I mean, you've got deadlines and you've just got to get the song out. I mean you've got eight hours a day and you've got to get home to your family. But the intentionality in this genre of lyric is everything.Jason: Yeah, it totally isSeth: So, rewinding, we skipped forward a lot of years but from you leading worship on that mission trip, wherever you were in California to when you, you know, got your first pay check from doing music, what did that look like?Jason: It was a lot of years. I definitely took the long road so I heard Christine Cane talk once on the distance between anointing and appointing and it's different for all of us but I really felt like God anointed me very specifically to write songs for His church, as a teenager. The appointing was probably some fifteen years later and so I went to Bible College, I became a worship pastor at a church in California and had a band, got a little bitty record deal, toured…sold four albums…it was off to an amazing startChris: All to your relatives right?Jason: Right and then at some point my wife and I felt nudged to move here and so we did but I didn't have a job or anything in music and so my entry point into music, and I was working temp agency jobs, I mean it got pretty lean for us, there was a Christmas where we went to sell blood plasma to try to get home for Christmas.Seth: [10.43] from going to Nashville to California? WowJason: That year I just remember thinking, ‘This, this has got to turn around pretty soon', you know, ‘there's only so much blood available'Seth: It was literally blood, sweat and tearsJason: Yeah, right yeah.Chris: That's amazingJason: My entry point into what I'm doing now, oddly enough, was getting a job doing merchandise for Sonicflood and this was back when they were sort of at the top of their thing. And so I needed a job, I didn't think…that's not what I moved here to do…but I started selling their merchandise and I heard they were about to make their second record and I heard that they wanted the title of the record to be ‘Resonate' and they didn't have a song called ‘Resonate', usually you don't title your album until you've got an album you know? Isn't that weird, so I pounced, ‘merch guy' saw an opportunity and wrote a song called ‘Resonate' which was a shoe in because you have to have a song called ‘Resonate' if the album's called ‘Resonate' and they didn't have it, so they had to record it. They recorded it, of course it was the title track but that happened before I wrote the song [11.53] it became their first single off that album. So that was the first time someone else recorded something that I wrote.Seth: You were doing merch for them on a tour and heard some conversation that [12.09]Jason: I heard a conversation, went to a hotel room, wrote a song, came back and said “Here's a song called ‘Resonate'”Chris: What was that like when you presented it? Did you present it as though you had not heard that before but just randomly came up with a song that was…Jason: No, I wasn't, I didn't play it off like I hadn't heard that they were calling the album ‘Resonate', so that was my entry point and then someone said “So that song made a little bit of money”, that was the first time that ever happened to me you know, ten years into writing songs, selling merchandise and blood. Some friends were saying “You should meet with publishers in town”, I'd never heard of a music publisher. I didn't know there was a career to be had in song writing, I had no idea. I was pretty naive to how the music industry worked and so I met with all the publishers in town, got a quick “No” from everybody. I just didn't have, I had this one song you know, and then…Seth: And they were all like, “And what else?”Jason: Right, right. And so the fourth publisher I met with, which was the last option, saw potential in the writing but really valued sort of, my heart for what I wanted to do with my writing so I entered my first publishing deal and that was, I guess, twelve years ago now.Chris: Who was that with?Jason: Cindy Wilt signed me to Word, so I wrote for Word for three years, she's my champion, she's with the Lord now…Chris: Just this past year…Jason: Yes, she signed me, I probably wrote a hundred songs my first year, as a writer at Word, with co-writes, almost every day. I didn't get one cut.Chris: Wow! Out of a hundred?Jason: A hundred yeah, yeah my batting average was pretty low, I wrote a hundred songs, no cuts but I really felt at the time that it was the most amazing year and I thought ‘Well, I'm not going to get my option picked up because I've made no money for the company but I was just really thankful to the Lord to have sort of lived a dream for a year. And so I was really ready to pack up and go back to something else and she picked up my option, wrote another hundred songs for another year, got my first cut, found out it was a hidden track…Seth: So did you even get paid for this?Jason: Well my…Chris: He got paid with hidden moneyJason: Yes, hidden money, Cindy called and assured me that you get paid the same, just no one will hear it. I was like “Ah, awesome”. So again, I thought…Seth: So one out of two hundredJason: One out of two hundredSeth: That's amazing though just for her vision in you, you know. If I signed a writer, if I was a publisher…Jason: You would not, no, you do not stick around, I would have never stuck with me so yeah, she really is a champion for meChris: Yeah, that's amazingJason: And so she picked up my option again…Seth: After the hidden trackJason: Really, really caught a wave, “So you're telling me there's a chance…”. So year three is when I finally kind of did catch my wave and I started having quite a few things work and the real sort of, another real pivotal album for me was Joy Williams did an album called Genesis and we wrote most of the songs on that album together…Seth: You and Joy…Jason: Yes, and it, it didn't necessarily go on to be the biggest album but everyone loved it. So it was like all of our peers loved it and so all of a sudden, doors started opening up and then I met a guy named Bebo Norman and we started writing songs for his album. And I'd never produced anything and I was just doing demos and stuff with the songs we wrote and then I ended up producing that record for him called Between the Dreaming and the Coming TrueSeth: Was that just kind of like, hey, you had been doing these demos and they loved what you were doing, just keep…Jason: Yeah, well what actually happened is we had written, I think, almost all the songs for his album, just the two of us and he went to the producer that they had hired to produce the first couple of songs and they just weren't thrilled with where they landed and so I think Bebo went and just said “Hey, do you mind if me and Jason sort of try to hit a couple?” I think he asked if we could hit a couple and record at the mall. So, then I was a producer you know and that's when I really did sort of catch a wave in that season. And another thing, so I started having lots of songs getting recorded, I started producing a lot. I really think this happened where I might have written a hundred songs and had no cuts, I think I've had a couple years where I've had a hundred songs cut.Chris: Wow, wowJason: And which is nuts so things just got fast and exciting and I found was a part of a couple guys who stumbled into this band called 10th Avenue North and so we signed them to a little development deal and shot them a record deal and that thing's turned into something really significant. Brandon Heath and I wrote ‘Give me your eyes' which turned into something significant and then it just seemed, it seemed to be like…where Seth is right nowSeth: I don't know if I'm there yetJason: Just lots of songs doing really, really, really well and to some degree I'm still on that wave but I have had a bit of a shift in, for me personally, and like God uses music in so many different ways but the song that I was most desiring in my life was songs for the Church. Songs that the Church could bring in worship to the Lord and I had a picture in my mind since high school that one day I would walk in to the back of a room and hear God's people singing something that He let me be a part of writing. So this is relatively recent, about six and a half years ago, six years ago I had…the mailbox money was there…and the accolades and stuff with my peers was there but I had this sort of unfulfilled dream and passion of mine and I was asking the Lord, before I moved into another [18.51] deal, if I was meant to keep doing this because I truly, and I prayed this, and I truly meant it, that I would trade all of the other things and what it brought and the success that it brought for that experience of walking in the back of a church and hearing God's people singing something that He'd let me be a part of writing.So I started bringing this prayer to the Lord about six and a half years ago, took some space from writing and it just seemed like that, at that time God shifted some things from me and really moved me into a place where that was going to become a much more significant part of my life. I remember the day I heard a church sing, I was in the back of a room and I heard a church sing something I wrote for the first time and it was six years ago. It was something I'd written with a guy named Reuben Morgan, because of the success that I'd had, he had come through town and he'd asked if he could get with Christian music's sort of top writer/producers and I was one of three he spent a day with and he didn't really want to write any songs. It was more to just sort of like talk philosophy, hang out, kind of get some exposure to some other ways of maybe approaching songs and take that back because they write their songs internally. So we spent a day and didn't write but we became friends instantly, it was like the brother that was out there that I hadn't met yet. So he came back through a couple of weeks later and on a Saturday morning we just decided to give a go at writing a little something and we wrote Forever Reign but he wasn't thinking that he would take it home and use it at church. So it was just a song that was just on a voice memo on two phones and I didn't know if that's all it would ever be and you really don't know.I think songwriters out there kind of wonder if you know when you've got one of those and you really don't know. I think you should feel like you've got one of those with every song you ever write, so this song was sitting there and I'm still praying this prayer, “Lord, let me walk in the back of a church and hear your people singing something You let me write” and I get this email and it says “Hey, decided to give this a run at church, it's unbelievable what's happening, this is just a board mix so excuse it being rough but I just wanted you to hear it”. And so I'm by myself in my room at home and I push play and I'm listening to Hillsong church sing ‘Forever Reign' like their lives depend upon it and I realized at that moment I was in the back of a church, like, but in God's extravagant and beautiful way, I was by myself with Him but I was listening into the back of not just any church but the most influential church on worship in the world. That really marked a transition for me and I so love radio, it's so fun for me and hooks and pop melodies but if I had to give my life as a writer to one thing, it would certainly be songs that God's people are singing in the church and so I do as much of that as possible these days and really love itChris: What an amazing storySeth: It's pretty crazyChris: Yeah, it is, and the fact that you were able to have kind of a private moment there but still have that experience that you kind of envisioned years and years beforeJason: Yeah, God's got this stuff you know, He's got usChris: Well speaking of that and the faith that it took to get to that point, what kind of faith did it take for you or ‘stick-to-it-iveness' that first year where you had the deal and you wrote a hundred songs and not one cut and then the second year where you finally got one but not many people would hear it unless they knew how to work a CD player the right way? What did it take for you to keep going and for Cindy to continue to have faith in you, just what was that experience like for you?Jason: Well I think what keeps us going is that we love it, it's hard for me to come over here and talk with Seth and not be like ‘So let's write something' because I love it, I love when we write, I love writing songs and so it's what keeps you going is that you love it. Even if there's not the return of people hearing it, that's a big bonus but that kept me going at it. And also too, I'm a bit, I'm driven, I don't think anyone ends up in this world that's achieving things like you're going to find that drive is a big part of a common factor.Seth: Well to push through two years of not having anything, it has to beJason: Right, it is and belief, people believing in you. The other thing, I do think it's important for songwriters in this era, we're such an instant gratification culture and an entitled culture that we don't appreciate the hours. There's this whole ten thousand hours thing that it takes to master anything that we're all familiar with but I really find that's true. I like to tell songwriters, I've got a good friend named Jimmy Abegg who was in The Ragamuffins with Rich Mullins and he's still a brilliant guitar player but his painting is probably his first love, so he's this brilliant painter; we have his paintings hanging all around our house. My wife dabbles in painting sometimes and so she had taken some pictures of the ocean out where we're from in Santa Cruz and had come home and was painting these ocean scenes, she had six canvasses hanging on the wall and she thought ‘Well I'm going to have Jimmy come out and give me some critique'. And I'm like ‘Oh, that'll be amazing, get critiqued by Jimmy Abegg' so he comes out and he looks at her six paintings and he tells her so many…like he just finds encouraging things to say about every inch of all six canvasses…but then he says, “Okay, so  you've got six, so go paint ninety four more and then paint your first painting”Chris: Oh gosh…Jason: But that's like, what good advice, I mean we always just want to fast track to…and some writers might write…their first song might be a world changing song, there's a difference between people who ‘happen' into a good song and people that constantly write great songs. And that comes from really honing your craft and honing your craft is…there's no shortcut to hours.Chris: I was thinking as you were saying that, the hundred songs in the first year and the hundred songs in the second year, even if they didn't get put anywhere that either could equate to significance on the charts or every bottom dollar, whatever that is, like what a classroom that is, to be in front of someone else, doing a co-write, [25.56] writing. All those songs are building towards…just like you were saying Jimmy was saying that all of those hundred paintings build towards being able to put your first one out there that is really a statementSeth: My competitiveness would probably go back and take some of those if I were in your position and play them for somebody and just watch how many of them would get cut. Now because you're Jason Ingram…Jason: You're totally right, and that does happen, that does happen. I mean you don't…it's hard to get a fair listen…people always listen to things through the filter of what their expectation is and so if their expectation is that something is going to be great, they're more likely to hear it that waySeth: Yeah, it's pre-informed, I'm sureChris: That's definitely true. So the kid that's getting out of Belmont and wanting to become the next Jason Ingram…what's your biggest word of advice to him or her?Jason: Write songs that mean something to you and put your head down and work hard and write a lot. The other thing I…when I say write something that means something to you…is I do find that a lot of people sort of come out of these environments and they've learned some sort of craft butSeth: Like meaning [27.17] haven't gone and gotten a degreeJason: Yeah, like got a degree or they've kind of read some books so they want to do something so they study the craft and you can assemble a song because the rhyme is there or the hook is there but I just think the difference, even in the pop world, and certainly in Country and Christian, is the songs that are written because they matter to you is…those are always the ones that do something. And another thing I tell people is if you want to be a songwriter, make sure your calendar tells me you're a songwriter because if your calendar doesn't tell me you're a songwriter you're not a songwriter.We sort of have this sort of idea that ‘Well, I'm just going to catch a song, I'm waiting for inspiration or…', the thing that we learn is,  we calendar our song writing and then good things happen. You tend to want to think that…like even ‘Forever Reign' as an example…or anything like that, that I was woken up in the middle of the night and the Lord said “I've got something for you”, so I got up, I sang something into my phone and the next morning I'm playing it back, and I'm like ‘Oh my goodness, this is amazing'. But, really it was just a date and a time that was scheduled on a calendar and had that not happened, that song would not exist and so I always tell people your calendar will tell me what you are in life and if you want to be a songwriter let's look at your calendar and let's see if you are. That's a big one is because it takes a lot of discipline to keep writing songsSeth: Now that's a good word, it's kind of less of waiting for inspiration to strike and just showing up every day and then the inspiration comes because of who you're around and…Chris: Definitely, definitelyJason: Yeah, and another thing is, on that, because of who you're around, co-write. We both know, we all know co-writing is the key to my success, that wasn't something I was doing…none of the songs that people know me by would even exist…that's a very big dealSeth: Do you sit down nowadays, ever, and just do anything by yourself anymore or is it just kind of like…that's…you don't do it that way anymore?Jason: I really don't. Every now and then, I think last year I wrote a song by myself, I just…you know was in a moment where I felt like I needed to express something…but that's so rare. I have an unfair advantage in that I have access to a lot of talented friends and so I want to know what my idea shapes into with someone else's mind involved in it as wellChris: Was that a process for you? In the early days when you say you sat in your room by yourself writing that song, to being mostly known as a person whose an amazing collaborator and co-writer, that process of transitioning into mostly co-writesJason: One of the things I told my first publisher when I signed my first publishing deal is that I write my best songs by myself and I really believed that and she said “Okay, well we'll see how that shapes up for you”. And it certainly was not true, what I said. I do not write my best songs by myself.Chris: How long did that take for you to fully believe that?Jason: About two years, of writing some by myself and writing a ton with other people, it makes sense though, I mean the community in strength. Like it just…it makes sense that when you do something as a team you're going to get better results than individualsSeth: That word is recurring very many times in this podcastChris: Isn't it though? It's amazingSeth: The importance of team and along with your team, when you were getting into it would you consider that publisher like your mentor, do you feel like you had a mentor, sort of shepherding you in your career?Jason: She would have been my mentor in that season of life for sure, she would listen to everything I wrote and told me what was working and what wasn't, yeah that was just like school for meChris: Was it tough to hear?Jason: No, because the heart was someone who was…when no one else wanted to give me any advance and tell me to write songs…this was the person that said “You can do it” so no, it definitely wasn't. I mean, it's always tough to hear in the regard that I think we put our hearts, we put ourselves into these things that we do and so it's always hard to hear things that are critical but it's so valuableSeth: At this point in your career you've achieved some pretty big success by any world standard. Is there anything that you're still afraid of when you come into work every day?Jason: Yes and it's that I'm afraid that I'm missing what God wants out of me and so I keep that in front of me, like the thing I'm really wanting to be mindful of in 2016 is if I didn't write another song [32.38] my family's going to be okay and I've accomplished something and I could come and write songs purely out of craft and gifting as can you and get good results but I…what I'm afraid of is, I'm not seeking what God wants…What does He want from me? What does He…what are the prayers that people need? What are the life rafts that we need to throw to people? What are the…not just writing songs [33.13] I just don't want to…in this space that I'm in…the music industry works unfortunately, I think, very much like any other industry, there's not a lot of conversation of mission, there's not a lot of conversation of, truly, of life impact, which is kind of sad you know. You want to hope that that's there but we're inundated by ‘Is it a hit?', I hate that word, I love when things become a hit but I…Seth: If that's what you're shooting forJason: The fear in me is just that we would just write really catchy jingles that people enjoy but that we're not really bringing the people what God, what His heart for us to bring them is. So that's front and centre for meSeth: Now that's goodChris: You're kind of building on that, and borrowing from a term you said earlier that you feel you're still kind of riding that initial wave that you caught. Can you foresee what you either want your next wave to look like or what you feel like you're transitioning into now? If it's the same thing, that's fine but what is the next two, three, five years look like for Jason Ingram?Jason: I've reached a place of freedom in my life where there's been a lot of hustle and  a lot of drive for a lot of years and I really want to sit in a place of rest and freedom and gratitude and so when you're too tired or there's something that happens when you're not taking care of yourself or your soul and your ‘get to's' become ‘got to's'. There is some years where I get to write a song, I get to be with this artist today, I get to come and talk about this. They become ‘got to's', I've got to do this, I've got to write today, I've got to be with that artist tomorrow. And there's no joy in that, there's no rest in that and for me, I'm just trying to move just into a space where everything is a ‘get to' again and however long God wants to use me in this capacity, like I'm pumped but holding it loosely.But I am excited, I'm ready to write the best songs I've ever written and to dig deep and jump around a room [35.36] listening to you know, I'm super fired up so I don't know, I don't have another thing, you know, just this thing and I do think there's something to that. I don't often say to people like you can go so many paths when something starts working, when one thing's working it's easy to start thinking about all these other things that you're not doing. And I've just tried to live by this principle that I heard someone say which is so where you have favour and so where I have favour, that's where I'm going to continue to sow and not be thinking about ‘Well because this is working [36.18] what I can get in that door, that I could do that thing'Chris: It's been a pleasure to  hear from you. I know that so many of your words have turned into songs that have turned into these personal words for other people. You know they've taken those as their own, as their prayer like you're saying. So it's been a pleasure for me to be able to sit here and just hear from you because so much of what I've heard from you have been the songs that you've created and so to hear personally from you about some of that with the struggles or the high points or the…what you're thinking of as some of those songs come to light has been a pleasure man, thank youSeth: Yeah, super funJason: Thanks so much for the time manSeth: You've been listening to the Full Circle Music Show, leave us a nice rating and review on iTunes. Editing help this week thanks to Kayley Ingram and [37.05] Jerricho Scroggins, produced by the Full Circle Music Company. Check us out at fullcirclemusic.org/podcastwww.fullcirclemusic.orgThe post FCM012 – Writing 100 Songs A Year with Jason Ingram appeared first on Full Circle Music. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.