Podcasts about just just

Ryan and Brad talk about King Hezekiah and his reaction to God's decision to allow him to live for another 15 years after his sickness.Chelsea Mosher  0:00  Hey, everyone, you're listening to God's Whole Story, a podcast of Worship Center. And we know just how hard it is to read God's word and understand it. So we decided to read the Bible chronologically this year and talk about it together. Thanks so much for joining us.Ryan Zook  0:17  Hey Everyone, welcome to God's whole story. My name is Ryan. I'm here again today with Brad. Brad Aldrich  0:22  Hello there. Ryan Zook  0:23  And today we're dealing with a pretty interesting passage, I think that you should definitely isn't one of those days, I think every day you should definitely listen to the Bible over us. The Bible is God's word, ours word is just our word. But this would be a good day to actually drill into what's going on here. Because I think I think there's a lot of room for some pretty compelling conversations. Basically, what's going to happen is our friend King has a khaya is going to find out through Isaiah that he like he's very sick. And Isaiah comes in, and he says, Hey, Hezekiah, like, you're not going to make it, you've got three days, you're definitely going to die. Get your stuff in order, because you're out of here, and has a khaya decides to pray to God, which he's done in the past. And God says, You know what? Sure. I'll give you 15 more years. And then it's kind of interesting to see what he's up to after that.Brad Aldrich  1:12  Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean, one of the things that's just remarkable to me is whether it's the faith of Hezekiah, or the doubt of Hezekiah, it's hard to tell, but immediately after, he's told, okay, I'll let you live for the next 15 years. He asks for another miracle to prove it, that he's going to live. And that's just kind of insane to me of going Oh, thank you. I got exactly what I was praying for. And now I'm asking you for another miracle to prove Ryan Zook  1:43  it is funny to me. We've seen Hezekiah pray before. So just just yesterday, Hezekiah prayed for deliverance from the king of Assyria. And God delivered the city from the king of Assyria in that instance, has a coyote did not say, Hey, can you prove it again, please? Just Just one more time. So here we see has a chi sand like Yeah, but just to make sure. Can we do the sundial thing? Can you make the sundial turn backwards? Please? Brad Aldrich  2:08  Well, he doesn't actually say the time goes backwards. He Yeah, basically says that the shadow on the sundial change it right. Oh, I think that's kind of interesting. For all the science people out there who are a little nervous about Wait, the earth rotated the other way for a little while. That's not actually what it says.Ryan Zook  2:26  So the question here is, like, what, what is happening is, is has a chi able to pray for longer life and God is able to grant longer life is has a chi of being tested. And he doesn't handle the test super well. Because it because it is a little confusing. Like if you just if you just read the text, the text seems to indicate I think, that has a chi prayed. God answered his prayer, he got 15 more years. What's interesting is that if you look at what happens in those 15 years, it's not a banner 15 years for Hezekiah. He's immediately showing off all his wealth of the Babylonians and the Babylonians are like cool, this looks like a great place to take over because we want that wealth. He also has a son, who ends up being not a great son at all, he ends up being a horrible, horrible King, we'll get there eventually to read about that. But he has this son in this 15 year period. So you end up with a king in the line of David that's born in this like I don't know essentially free ga

“The Allison Manor?” “The one on top of the hill?” “Oh how ghastly, you must tell us everything!” “You must, you must!” Four debutantes in long ruffled skirts and dresses pecked a young woman in drab wear, near to bleeding, with their flurry of questions. The five were at the town well from which the woman in drab was in the process of drawing from, before being ambushed by the esteemed coterie. The streets were empty. The sun was gone, choked out by dark clouds gliding over the horizon. It was to rain soon. “Well...” began the woman in drab. She looked down at her half-filled water bucket. “I haven't been a maid in Master Allison's service for quite so very long, you see but he's...” “Alright, go on then!” Said a debutante, a fair-skinned, green-eyed beauty with black hair done-up in the popular style. “Being there is—in the manor I mean—it's...strange.” The woman in drab said that last word, strange, with some frustration as if it were a word not enough. The debutantes all scoffed and rolled their eyes at this. “Obviously.” Said one, golden-eyed with blonde hair in long flowing tresses. “But what's he like? I hear he's a beast.” “I hear a devil!” “Neither.” Said the woman. “But he is strange. I've not been there very long but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen him since I've started.” “Not even at tea?” Asked the black-haired one. “No. Not even then. I don't cook for him either and I've never once seen him eat.” The woman in drab looked around at all the fancy ladies who were leaned in close to her, hanging on her every word. She smiled and continued. “That's not even the most strange. I'll check the larder sometimes, and notice foods gone missing.” “Come on then, what's he eat!?” Asked the golden-eyed girl. “Well, that's what's bizarre...I only ever find cheese missing.” “Cheese? No man, nor beast can hardly subsist on cheese alone. What kind of cheese?” “American.” The debutantes all made scandalized noises at this and were promptly quieted down with what was said next. “And sometimes, in the morning. I'll hear noises come from his chambers, crazy ranting, and raving like from a man possessed!” The debutantes all gasped and ,when they had recovered, began to kick up fresh noise. “What's he say, what's he say? Tell us!” they chirped. “I dunno. Something about some family, or person—thing—named, liberal.” She let the debutantes chew on this for a bit, taste the unfamiliar word in their mouths before she hit them with the next part. “And last Sunday, I snuck into his chambers as he was out on constitutional with the manor hound. I was told never to go in there.” The woman leaned into her captive audience. “But I had to. I had to know...” The debutantes' eyes were as wide as dinner plates. “And what did you find?” asked the black-haired one in an excited whisper, her white-gloved hand gripping the woman's wrist. “No bed.” “No bed? Whatever could you mean?” “ What I said, my lady.” Said the woman. “No bed. No blankets on the floor. Just…Just a coffin.” Overhead thunder cracked and it was the sound of a great seal being broken. Just then, the rain had begun in earnest.

Showing off wealth and luxuries is at an all-time high thanks to the influence of social media but what about all the other individuals who resort to a life of minimalism? In this episode of BTP, we contrast luxury with minimalism and offer our solution to strike the right balance between the two.   Daniel's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danmolgan/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Danmolgan LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-molgan-41812352/   Pouya's Social: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/   Episode Transcript... ----more----   SUMMARY KEYWORDS luxury, minimalistic, money, minimalism, people, traveling, spend, buy, life, minimalist, mining, lambo, check, cars, education, luggage, pandemic, absolutely, photos, lifestyle SPEAKERS Pouya LJ, Dan   Pouya LJ  00:09 Hello, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to yet another episode of The BTP podcast. I'm joined as always with Daniel Mulligan, how's it going, man?   Dan  00:17 Whatever, man, buddy, how's it going? How are you good to hear your voice Been a while, we've been super busy with a lot of things here, and I'm sure you're there as well. So life is absolutely great, I'm actually getting on the road these days a lot more frequently than I used to. So we're getting out of that, you know, pandemic lockdown mode, basically. So I'm pretty excited. I've already actually sorted a lot of my trips. Although these days for the sake of not having to deal with major problems, I actually keep most of my trips much shorter than usual. So if I used to stay in any country for like, one month and a half now it's like more like a week or two, to make sure that there's going to be any major problems. But fortunately, we're seeing gradually the world is opening up. And thanks to, you know, a wide spread vaccination basically. So that's a very good news for people like us who are always on the road and who don't want to just deal with the hassles of having to go through these bs checkups and bring your results. And now we have things like you know, vaccination, passports and so on, which are pretty good, although it's a little bit political, but very good. This is definitely gonna, you know, accelerate the process, moving around, and just, it's gonna open up the borders and make it easier. So I'm pretty happy about that one. And life is great. On my side, haven't you man? How are things? I literally was shocked when I saw a couple of photos you sent me yesterday about you mining Bitcoin with those fancy devices, man. So what's the story in it?   Pouya LJ  01:41 Well, you Oh, actually, I'm actually mining etherium. But yeah, that's it's I don't know, it was one of those things that I picked up during the pandemic, essentially. Yeah,   Dan  01:51 it's probably, I don't know, maybe on your Instagram page or something you just probably shared. That stuff looked really like it was crazy, man. It didn't look like a normal thing to happen. And like, it seems super fancy as if like you have like no laboratory dedicated entirely to cryptocurrency mining or something. It was pretty cool. I mean, maybe should later check and check it out. Guys. I can go to his Instagram. See from the photos. It's really fun. So how long has it been since you've been mining?   Pouya LJ  02:20 Yeah, I'll drop those photos in the shadows too. Just Just because we talked about it. Yeah, it's been I think it's been since late February, something like that. Yeah.        Dan  02:31 You're late starters, it has a lot more than you know, it's not like, four or five months or something.   Pouya LJ  02:36 Yeah, I know. It hasn't been that long. And honestly, at that point, I was trying to pick up a project. And I was looking at, okay, what's out there and I've done this, I've done that. I want to do that later. It's gonna be a lot of time. And then I came across this one, I was like, You know what, why not do this? I haven't done this for so long. It's it's a good time to pick it up. And I did. And I was like, You know what, it's also a good passive income kind of thing. So I mean, I'm not   Dan  03:03 actually listed with the income aspect of it. I mean, I don't know about things in Canada. Are there any taxations By the way, for any mining, or you're not going to be taxed?   Pouya LJ  03:11 Yeah. So not for mining per se. I suppose. If you sell it in in the form of cash then it might be but I have no intention of selling me so I'm not actually selling any of them. So in   Dan  03:26 the Canadian government, so you guys back off.   Pouya LJ  03:30 Yeah, no.   Dan  03:32 taxable a lot. I mean, they're, they're like Europeans. They tax.   Pouya LJ  03:35 Yeah, no, I mean, that's true. But on the other hand, they only texted on currency, as far as I know. Like, I mean, there's no it's not   Dan  03:42 like the US where you're basically crypto wallet is also centered your taxation. It's not like that yet in Canada.   Pouya LJ  03:49 Yes. So I'm not too too sure. Like whoever listening in Canada don't take this as advice to be honest with you, but I'm pretty sure if you hold it as that currency No, but if you do sell it, then you have to Why do you have to so if so, for example, let's say you bought $100,000 I mean, that's a long large sum. But let's say you buy $100,000 worth of whatever bitcoins, let's say, and then you sold it again now you're on 120. So it's similar to stock markets. I saw that prop So yeah, I think Yeah, exactly. I think that's still stays the same. But mining they don't like I don't know technically, that's pure profit, I suppose. But on the other hand, it's not really and it's not so my project is not that massive to be extremely noticeable when I'm talking about it. I guess it's public, but either way I when I if   Dan  04:41 you share those photos, people are gonna change their mind.   Pouya LJ  04:44 No, but if I if I had to be absolutely honest, if I do sell it, I'm going to declare it in my tax returns, no doubt, but I have absolutely no intention of selling it.   Dan  04:53 That's the culture of Canada. These guys just love their government. They're so peaceful they they share all the electricity What I made and here's my tax I'm gonna pay some extra for the sake of the community. Love the Government of Canada. Yeah, that's right.   Pouya LJ  05:05 I don't know taxes to be honest with you absolutely do not. I mean, you got to do what you got to do.   Dan  05:11 I see and one thing is gonna be like profitable. Do you think in Canada, given the cost of the equipment, the electricity and so on? Oh, yeah. So thankfully,   Pouya LJ  05:19 I had some of my equipments from ways back. And the other ones that I added on along the road. A I managed to get at a very decent prices. So yeah, those those Oh, man, so shopping them, I   Dan  05:33 don't know, Black Friday, something you get, like 90% off and something and start mining that stuff.   Pouya LJ  05:38 Yeah, it wasn't particularly like 90% off. But yeah, I got a I got a few good deals, here and there. And you know, how they're very rare these days. So I know, right? If you can even get it out. MSRP it's I think it's fairly fairly good price. But, but yeah, so the class costs are were too high. And electricity is not too bad. Actually, I don't pay electricity at my place, specifically. So it's kind of included. Oh, so you're renting now? Right? Yeah, I rent.   Dan  06:08 That's like that's like miners dream country?   Pouya LJ  06:11 Exactly. I mean, again,   Dan  06:12 I'm not sure about your landlord. Probably.   Pouya LJ  06:15 No, no, my landlord doesn't pay either. It's so the condominium entirely is basically paying one utility for everybody. And again, my project is not so so big that it would cost like if I were to pay it, it would probably add, I don't know, approximately less than 50 Canadian dollars per month. Wow. Okay, I   Dan  06:38 got it. That's right, pretty well, pretty well, but overall, nice, nice, you know, thing and to hope you're gonna succeed. And you can later on later on share with us exactly what happened and how the whole thing went out?   Pouya LJ  06:49 Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, we'll have episodes on that for whoever's interested. Today, though, we're talking about something slightly different. Actually, we can relate it to anything for actually I thought about relating to things already. So it's basically minimalism versus luxury. Let's, let's define them first. I guess for those who don't know why luxury, I think everybody knows. But let's define minimalism. For those who might not have heard of it.   Dan  07:13 I can guess, right? Well, very nice. Of course, the word itself is self explanatory. It comes from the word minimal, meaning living, basically, your life in a way that you just spent enough to meet all of your basic needs, without any money spent on things that are not absolutely necessary. So of course, what is truly necessary, it is really subjective, I guess, it depends on who you are, your background and so on. However, I think that in the end, it really comes down to you living kind of like, you know, below your means as much as possible to make sure that your life is sustainable. And you're not having a you know, a lot of basically consumption at the end of the month, basically, which is called minimalism. Now, there are various types of minimalism some of the extremist types, where they have to just, you know, literally, you have to live in a cave somewhere or something in that situation. Yeah, probably, it's gonna be weird. But ultimately, it's about living below your means trying to save as much as possible. So the focus in that lifestyle is much more about spending less. And in a luxury lifestyle is much more about making more. So these are two very different approaches to life, those who are on the, you know, luxury lifestyle category, they don't believe in not spending, basically, they believe in spending more, but they have to focus on earning more as well. And those who are on the minimalistic side, their focus is mainly on spending less. So they tend to spend their time and life basically in very different ways. And they end up having very different lifestyles. So that's what you know, we were talking about minimalism versus luxury lifestyle, this first lecture, we already know what that means. And there is pretty much no limit to how luxury your life can get. And when it comes to minimalism, however, there are some basic limits, I mean, us really can have, you can literally go on so many few meals per week, right? So you can, there's a lot there's a bottom limit. When it comes to luxury, there's actually you know, the sky's the limit, basically.   Pouya LJ  09:09 Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so I actually thought about a few things to relate to whatever we said before now, let's go back to your so you were telling you're back on the road, you're traveling and you know, and you were saying you're on the road a lot, so you don't stay for long periods of time, particularly. And I was thinking actually, you know, a minimalist luggage would actually help a lot.   Dan  09:36 Unfortunately, I always travel with two languages that cover the problems that I have basically. Now, generally, that's not a big deal. It's my habit. Basically, I rarely travel with one luggage, mainly two languages, because I tend to stay as I mentioned earlier, usually Of course now the pandemic has changed that. But before the pandemic I rarely seen any place less than three weeks to a month. Basically so I need to have more clothes, some you know, for business some for, you know, going out and so on some you know, for the gym for that reason I rarely travel with only one luggage so I do not travel minimalistic that to be honest with you right now, because it's not possible for me, quite frankly. And I have a lot of devices. And I don't know, multiple phones, basically phone phones and both androids and iPhones for different countries. So it's kind of hard to put it all in one language and just call it a minimalistic Well, let's go man, I just got this tiny little luggage here. That is not for me, unfortunately. But I sometimes like these people who are traveling with like, you know, like luggage and like, Dude, this guy's ready. It's so much easier that way, I guess for these guys. Right? And generally, it's their style, but for me, unfortunately, I tend to be on the heavy luggage type basically. So if I'm not flying business, then I should always pay extra for basically the luggage.   Pouya LJ  10:53 Gotcha. Gotcha now, so Okay, the reason I mentioned this is so I don't know to me like I know some people adapt luxury or minimalism as a way of life very generally. So basically applying it to all aspects. But for me, I think you know, as Jocko with Jocko Willink would say it's there's, for me, there's a dichotomy, like, there are some things that I absolutely go minimalistic, for example, and this is not by any philosophy or anything, it's just by happenstance, now that I'm thinking about it, for example, travel. Now, I'm not saying I'm gonna go with a fanny pack. I'm not that minimalistic, but I'm relatively minimal minimalistic, let's say, compared to average. And that is, like, I go with as little, you know, luggage as possible, maybe a backpack and a small suitcase? That would be that would be I mean, I also I'm not going on, you know, these kind of travels that you do, you know, I don't need that much stuff. So, my point is that I think it, it's very area dependent. For me personally, in some areas, I'm fairly minimalistic, and I'm so so for example, I have three monitors. That's absolutely not minimalist.   Dan  12:03 I'm pretty sure when it comes to tech, you're definitely not a minimalist. Take a look at that photo, guys. And in the show notes, you'll see that that is not minimalist at all.   Pouya LJ  12:10 Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's what I mean, like, so I think read monitors just   Dan  12:13 in that frame. Just look around the house, you're gonna find out there four or five display somewhere else?   Pouya LJ  12:18 Well, the TV's separate, obviously. No, no, but so do you see it this way, as well? Or is it   Dan  12:26 again, you see, that's what you said, it's about lifestyle. Man, you are definitely not minimalistic when it comes to, this is what I what I think about you, I'm pretty sure you are not minimalist when it comes to technology, or even education. Because I mean, for example, you have a huge desire for learning a lot of new things. You're not a minimalist, minimalist, says, Oh, I got my Bible, I got my Bible, and that's all I ever need from Allah. I'ma read the Bible all the time. That's the only book I need. So, if you're one of those, yeah, that's called minimalism regarding education, right? The Bible, the Bible is all information. God knows all I got the book   Pouya LJ  13:02 has all the information from 10,000 years ago into that, right? Of course,   Dan  13:05 and that's the only one I love me. So that's gonna be basically, you know, educational minimalism, if you will, right? People who are like that will live very differently, right? And not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, we respect people of all faiths and beliefs. It's just that someone who lives that way will have a very different life than someone like Fujitsu. I don't know, loves technology reach a lot and you know, pursue education abroad, right. So these are the, you know, these who are going to have very different lifestyles, right? So minimalism is relative. But usually, when people talk about luxury, they only talk about one aspect, which is, you know, the money and all that stuff, right. But in fact, luxury can be literally defined, depending on how you live, for example, one of the biggest luxuries would actually talk about this issue not long ago, in one of our programs. Generally, luxury can be seen in variety of, you know, wage, yes. When we say the luxury people think of, I don't know, Chanel and for example, you know, leave a ton and super expensive, you know, cars and so on, because they are looking at luxury from a consumers perspective, right, or from a, you know, vanity point of view, right? Oh, show off and all that stuff. But luxury could be seen as you having enough time every morning to go for a jog, without having to rush to work because you know, you are working, you know, running your own business, again, actually dedicate a couple hours in the morning for, you know, some jogging without having to worry about the traffic, right? That's a luxury. And I think that for me personally, as you probably know, that's one of my luxury that I had every day. And I value that a lot more than I don't know, having to always, you know, be in a super fancy car. So if you told me down, I'm gonna give you right now a lifestyle where you can drive a fancy car every single day, or you can have that one hour in the morning for, you know, jogging, and you know, somehow meditation or something like this. I will pick the second one because that for me is a lot more valuable, right? Which is why we should look at minimalism the luxury in different contexts. That by default is about you know, vanity, buying stuff large homes, I don't know, cool, fancy travels and whatnot. But even if it comes to travel, I'm actually really not a fan of most people will let you know what people call traveling, I don't know your book, I don't know, three days stay in a super fancy hotel, you go there, and you're there for three days. And that's it. That's not traveling, when I'm traveling, I want to be there, I want to, I want to feel the country, I want to speak his language, I want to know the culture I want to be and you know, be there for at least three weeks to, you know, one month, one month and a half, to fully immerse myself in their culture, and that it's a form of luxury, which sometimes can actually cost a lot less than your super fancy five star hotel travels, right? So it really I think depends on our value in life. If it, you know, comes straily about you know, just the money and all that yeah, it's just about minimalism means you spend less money, and luxury means you spend more money, but we have different types of luxuries and different types of luxuries bring different types of you know, for example, experiences in life, which is why we should look at this issue somehow subjectively and divide it into different groups of luxuries in different groups. It could be extremely wealthy, and drive fancy cars and you know, drive, get a private jet, but be financially minimalistic, or sorry, be educationally minimalistic, or be physically minimalistic. This means that you don't take care of your body, for example, I don't have time to learn new things, and All you think about is to make more money. And at the end of the week, you say, Well, I'm gonna go to church have a good time I get my Bible, that's all one thing. So this is one lifestyle, this guy lives a very, very high quality, luxury, you know, lifestyle in terms of how he spends his money. But in terms of education, and in terms of health, this person is minimalistic, because he has no time for an ability to shape or improving, you know, perhaps his or her knowledge, right? At the same time, you could have a college kid who has a lot of time in the world for, you know, building a good shape and learning a lot of things but might not have enough money for traveling or buying, you know things right. So generally, I personally, as I've already mentioned, I'm not generally a fan of luxury in his traditional sense, because luxury generally is pretty much about showing off, right? Look at me, look at what I got. And I personally believe that people who try to show off with wealth, especially nowadays, thanks to social media is becoming even more popular. I don't know, you get your show off, you're driving your Lambo. And you take a photo with this, you know, cool thing you got on the yacht in here, or Yeah, I'm an accountant, a junior accountant in this company that I hate, but I'm traveling all the time, take a look at my photos. So these are the things that people tend to show off with which I am against, because I really believe that that can only develop, you know, resentment among those who are less financially fortunate. And ironically, it's not even necessary, because the problem is showing up with money as this money can be transferred to you without you doing anything, you can just inherit that you can just win in the lottery right? And trying to show off with money. And let's be honest, this could just be totally faked. Right, just downright you just, you know, rent a Lambo for two days, that's your entire month's salary, and then you start showing off to create a course on how they can become wealthy. Well, if you want to look at it, you know, basically, as a business point of view, no problem. I mean, you're a scammer No problem, you just got to put your months of salary you earn working in McDonald's, to, you know, take a couple of videos for two days and then create an online course how to become rich. Yeah, you could do that. It's not necessarily an ethical approach to you know, making money, but it is one way to do it. And unfortunately, people who are on social media, you know, do these kinds of things, unfortunately. But in reality, I believe that there are far better ways to show off than just buying luxury, the best, which, of course, is who you are, I think, who you are and how valuable you are, and how much contribution you can make to society are far better signs of how worthy you are than how much money that there are many people in this world. We're not millionaires or billionaires, but who are making great contributions or who have great abilities that can make them stand out and I think focusing on who you are, and your abilities will be a lot more effective means of trying to perhaps show your worth then everybody ready nobody's no one's gonna say like, yeah, I want to do the same thing. I'm a piece of shit that was going to say that the need for self esteem is a basic need as part of it, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, everybody wants to feel that sense of self is everybody wants to feel good about themselves. I am so and of course when that feeling disappears, we have things like depression, suicidal thoughts, and so on. So everybody has to have a self esteem, nobody has to feel good about themselves. And the feedback we get from others definitely does matter. But in the end, you can do that by buying fake Gucci's and pretending to be someone you're not. Or you can simply do it by showing how great you are when it when it comes to painting, or how such a great thinker you are, how such a great athlete you are, how fast you can run or I don't know how well you perform on the stage. When you do your, you know, theatrical plays. There are many ways for us to show our worth. And I think the worst Way to show your worth is by money, because that is probably the, it accomplishes the exact opposite. When a person says, check out my cash, Oh, I got 200,000 in my hand, that's all by the way, like $1 bills, something that you want to get looks so big in front of the camera, I'll look at all these bills in my hand, I'm so rich. Well, what that person is trying to say is look at me. I'm good. Please tell me I'm good. And please love me. That's like the intention behind that, right? Or, alternatively, look at this. I grew up in filth, I came from a shitty background, but now I'm rage. So I'm the only rage and I feel I have a serious complex. So whatever you do, the impact of that will ultimately be negative. Those are like, Who's this idiot, man? Gosh. And sometimes this behavior actually attracts the wrong types of attention, thing criminals who say, Oh, this guy's got some, Where's his location? Oh, see? Or if you're working in business, the tax basically auditors. Oh, wait a minute, let me check this guy's Iris report, ah, this guy recorded only $30,000 of income. But this guy's driving a Lambo, oh, we're gonna go for a new audit. So basically, you end up accomplishing the exact opposite of what you hope for by trying to show up with money. On the other hand, imagine you show off by your ability to play chess, I'm the world's best chess player, no one can take that away from you. I'm show off with my ability to paint well, and I share my photos on Instagram of how such a great painter I am. Well, no one can take that away from you. But money could be stolen from you and could be taken away from you and can simply be faked. Or just got, you know, in order to become great, you know, a chess master, you got to put in the effort. But it can be rich overnight, without working so hard to become a great painter, you're gonna put in a lot of lot of, you know, hours into this to actually reach mastery. And once you get there, nobody can take it away from you, right? That's not the same with money, which is why I am vehemently against luxury, especially the way that we use to show off it just First of all, based on my estimation, most of the people who do show off with money generally aren't either that rich, or even if they are that rich, they probably are lowering their value in the eyes of other people. And but most luxuries are not purchased. I actually had a poster for this a while ago. And I actually looked at those around me, those whose net worth exceeded $100 million, and those who are like in a couple million. And you'll see that as the network comes down, luxury goes up. And as net worth goes up, the luxury comes down to the guy whose net worth is 100 million. You don't see him flashing cool stuff. And even if he has cool stuff, he doesn't show it to anybody. He just maybe some guys really love to drive a Lamborghini. Right? This is like he's a car nerd. Right? He drives his Lambo, but you're never gonna see that photo on his Instagram, right? And the guy who has his entire wealth is $3 million. gets himself I don't know, into trouble by buying two luxury cars and being under debt for many years. Right. Which is why I really consider that approach to you know, luxury to be extremely, basically, probably a great way to show how pathetic you feel and how empty your life is from the inside. Because those who already have the money, they don't really do it. And those who do it, in most cases probably don't have that much money. So just brings it into the whole dilemma back in the you know, the spotlight and how ineffective this bursary is.   Pouya LJ  23:26 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I was thinking about, you know, what I am, in this sense as you were talking and I think by default, I am a minimum. I think that might be true of everybody. I don't know, but at least me. I think by default, I'm generally minimalistic. And then I pick and choose. So for example, as you said technology, education health. I definitely i'm not i'm not shy to spend as much as necessary on three. So yeah, I can't think of anything else that is valuable to me personally, right now. I mean, I haven't thought about it too long. But right now that I'm non minimalistic, maybe a little bit luxury about it. Do you have any areas that you spend a lot of time attention money perhaps on besides I don't know, let's say travel?   Dan  24:14 Well, you mentioned the first one, by the way, I don't believe if you spend money on things you're passionate about that is not you know, showing off that is not you know, luxurious consumption. It's just because of your passion. I told you even if you have a Lamborghini, if you really are crazy. I have some friends who are crazy about cars, man, like, man, check out this. Check out the sound, man. It's so fucking cool, right? So these guys, and they talk about these things, right? This guy, if you really spend money on Lambo, even though it's expensive, that is not a luxury consumption, because this guy's passionate. You see, I consider luxury consumption to be done solely with the purpose of impressing other people, including buying things you don't really believe in, but you feel that gives you that attention. And then is the real. So it's really all about the intention. Bill Gates, loved cars, Bill Gates has a huge collection of cars from the very beginning of his, you know, his career, he still does. He's got many garages full of luxury cars, but not a single person on earth knows that. And not a single magazine has ever shown in brain one of these cars. He intentionally avoids that. You see, this guy is one of the richest men of the world. He's unfortunately, he's not the richest at this moment. But still, the point is this, this guy loved cars. And when he bought these cars, it wasn't for showing off was this. He's, you know, he's just quite crazy about these things, right? The same thing goes with anything else you can spend money on, you know, and spend big bucks on things you really are passionate about. But the question is, what is your intention? when I'm traveling? First of all, I don't even actually post a lot of these Oh, I'm here I'm there is location things often do? We don't travel that much. And number two, I don't even announced, you know, recently that much. Why? Because when I'm traveling, I'm not doing that to say, Oh, yeah, I'm traveling Check. Check this out. Because I from from a person that's like a lifestyle, right? The other thing I knew I spend money on is perhaps clothing and accessories. And again, that's purely because of a personal interest, not because I want to say oh, I spend a lot of nice branch. No, because I like the students, I believe that most men dress like shit. And I don't like that. I think that men should change their approach towards dressing. And if I could be a role model and help other men to change their salad dressing and pay a little bit more attention, not to dress like their grandpa's, maybe that'll be a good thing. But that's just for me personally, right? It's just a personal passion. But I have zero interest in things like luxury cars, or luxury brands, or I don't know, oh, check this out. I got this cool washing here. Yeah, I will have a decent watch a couple of them. But that's it. It's not just you know, to say, oh, check this out, by the way. Oh, what time is it? Man? Oh, that's right. It is 30 minutes to Rolex, good seeing ya. So that's not going to be like, I mean, that's just so pathetic when I hear these things. So I am vehemently against those types of luxuries, pretty much almost all of them. And when it comes to education, I have no lunch. I don't care about the price tag of anything education. Well, there's a seminar, whether it's an educational course, you do give me the price, I don't know, half a million dollars for this course, I'll take it no problem, because for me, education is always an investment. I see it as investment as soon as it tripling that money. So if I put a half a million under education, I'm gonna get a minimum a million, you know, and 500,000 back, right. For that reason, for education, I have no limits. Because for me, you can never learn something too much. Right? So that is just about the personal balance. And for me, that's what matters. So if I wanted to say, to which things I spend money on, you can actually check out you know, know these things by looking at your bills, because I literally do this. Each month, I look at you know, all my expenses, I use all of my, you know, bank accounts for different countries to see what actually spent money on. And it almost always comes down to education. It comes down to health and fitness, you know, healthy food, high quality nutrition, and supplements and vitamins, all that stuff, which I for me, there's no limit, health, healthcare, investing doctors at getting appointments, checkups. And of course, for things that directly helped me like traveling, clothing and so on. But I rarely spend money on things that are absolutely useless. Because for me, that's not going to change me, right? It's not going to make my life better. And if I ever do it, I'm doing it with the intention of impressing others. And that always backfires. Because the worst way to get other people's admiration is to do it directly. Like, oh, tell me I'm so great. Check out my car. Oh, I'm a piece of shit. I feel empty from the inside. Please tell me I'm good. Please look at my Lambo. Oh, no, please like it too. This only shows a big hole inside of you. Right? So any purchase I make? I make because of me not because I want to show it off, or because I want others to say wow. Because I believe that the best way to make up your mind about your expenditure is to ask yourself, Is it for me to actually want to buy anything? I'm pretty sure he did not buy those cool gadgets for mining because you wanted to show off that Oh, check out No, you want it for you. You spend money for education because of you. And when you spend money because of you because of utility and really what you are passionate about that is I think the right expense. But unfortunately, a lot of times we don't buy things because we wanted for us. Many people prefer basically Android to iPhone, but they have to buy an iPhone because that's you know, that's going to be cool. Or I myself, I always get the latest iPhones because I love iPhone, but I never buy the pro version. Why? Because I hate to say like, Oh, my camera got my camera got three lenses and yours got only two. That's just so pathetic, which is why I intentionally always buy the latest iPhone but I always buy the basic version to make sure that it's not a luxury expense. I just use it for utility for the latest hardware for the latest, you know, benefits that comes with the latest iPhone, but I never go for these pro pro max all these crap basically Why? Because my intention is always one thing utility not show up with money.   Pouya LJ  30:15 Alright, I think that sums it up. That's that's a perfect way too. perfect place to stop. Is there anything you want to add? Or? We're good?   Dan  30:23 Well, that was a very special man. And I enjoy talking with you about these two things, we really are the question, we have this luxury approach to life. And we have this minimalistic. And as we probably know, the best approach is somewhere in the middle, I don't recommend our lives, like Daniel said, I should have abandoned Okay, I'm going to live in a cave. I'm going to drink goat's milk for the next two years. So that is not of course, effective. Right? money should be spent. That's how economies function. But the question is, why do you spend that money? So next time you made a purchase? It was I don't know, whatever item you wanted to purchase order online, ask yourself, Am I doing this for me? Or am I doing this to impress other people? Do I really need a you know, for example, the latest and the, you know, the most expensive version of this item? Or is it just to say that I have it right. And above all, please be aware of the prices manage your budget, maybe this item is really cool. But you have to have money left for savings for investments and other things. You know, living by the formula of wealth implies that you must always make sure that your expenses are less than your income. Most of us were the exact opposite. We always spend what we earn. And if our income goes up, we increase our consumption. And that's why most of us are never going to get rich. So ask yourself, have I saved enough money for a future in retirement or for some investment where we're buying real estate or buying stocks or investing in cryptocurrencies, whatever it is, or now, I just all my friends have the latest promax I want to get the promax to even though my entire salary this month. But Dude, that's a huge mistake. You can make that you know, purchase right now. But you're going to regret that a couple months down the line when the rent is due, and you don't have the cash and after what people you don't like. So you're gonna hate your job, you're gonna do some job you hate just to have that friggin phone. Are you kidding me? So for that reason, be aware of what your budget really is, like, make wise decisions. And always ask yourself, am I buying this for me? am I buying this because I want a certain type of reaction from other people. Because if you buy it for you, that's always okay. No problem. But unfortunately, a lot of our purchases, especially the ones that are luxury, are not for us, we're not really doing that because we need it or because we want it or even because we like it. I know people who hate sports cars, but they have to, you know, keep up with the Joneses. Because this other guy who's also a banker has it, so why not? And they hate it. They like oh gosh, this card is so fast. And so should I hate it. You know what, I gotta keep the image. So ask yourself is really from your for the other people. Because the worst thing you can do in your life, is to buy things you don't need. With the money, you don't have to impress the people you don't even like that's like the worst side of you know, capitalism. And please, if you're now listening to us avoid this approach as much as possible.   Pouya LJ  33:17 Okay, no, that was great. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think you should live by that every day of the week and every week of the year. Alright, thanks again, Dan, for joining us for another fantastic conversation. My pleasure. And thank you everybody for listening and tuning in. And if you have any thoughts, feel free to share it with us. You know where you know how. All right until later episode. Have a good day.

This is the third virtual StockSlam hosted by Damian Cannon. A very popular investor event where ten private investors ‘slam' their best stock idea in just three minutes to a sophisticated investor audience, followed by questions which keep the slammers on their toes. Bite-sized nuggets to inspire your further research. Fast, factual and fun. 00:18 Introduction by Damian Cannon 03:00 Softcat (SCT) by Damian Cannon 09:44 Paypoint (PAY) by Jamie Streeter 16:40 CVS Group (CVSG) by D'Arcy Andrews 23:45 Ergomed (ERGO) by Lilian Nandi 31:33 Innovaderma (IDP) by Francis Evans 38:45 Just (JUST) by Dee O'Hare 45:36 Tremor International (TRMR) by Ed Croft 53:13 Orchard Funding (ORCH) by William Woodard 01:00:03 Celtic (CCP) by David O'Hara 01:07:31 Surgutneft Gas (SGGD) by Rob Mahan The next StockSlam is Wednesday 25th June at 6pm, we hope you can join us then, registration will be available on our events page next week.  

Consistency is dubbed the key to long-term success but we all have at some point struggled with lack of consistency. In this program, Daniel and Pouya discuss how we can remain consistent in the pursuit of our goals and gain streaks that are actually lasting.     Daniel's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danmolgan/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Danmolgan LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-molgan-41812352/   Pouya's Social: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/   Episode Transcript... ----more----   Wed, 5/12 8:42AM • 36:53 SUMMARY KEYWORDS consistency, streak, reward, days, called, gamification, duolingo, discipline, pandemic, people, literally, consistent, life, process, trophy, exercise, addicted, book, reinforcement, maintain SPEAKERS Pouya LJ, Dan   Pouya LJ  00:13 Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to yet another episode of The BTP podcast as always joined by Daniel Morgan, how's it going? Man?   Dan  00:22 What up man? How's it going miss you a lot, buddy. How you doing? How is life I thought Canada's been shut down completely, thanks to pretty much unfriendly neighbor, which is called United States. Sorry, just didn't happen, unfortunately, to give you the vaccines there. But overall, I'm glad to be here with you, man, life is great. And fortunately, we are seeing as I expected, a much more optimistic, basically summer, we're getting closer to it and couldn't be any happier. We're hearing some good news. Unfortunately, of course, there are still parts of the world that are now suffering heavily, namely, India is one of them. But overall, we are seeing grain Oh, it was announced three days ago, basically, that we have now reached a plateau worldwide. In the pandemic. This means that from here on end, the numbers both in terms of infections and death will only basically come down over the coming, let's say 10 months or so. And that means that we're basically as was very intelligently predicted by Dr. Fauci. By the end of 2021, q4, hopefully, life gradually begins to get back to normal, and we're very happy about that matter. So that's pretty good. This means open borders, open borders means more flights and travels, it means more business. It means just pure happiness. So glad to be here with you, man. How are you doing? How's life in Canada?   Pouya LJ  01:41 No, that's good. Um, I think we're all looking forward to that pure happiness section of the argument.   Dan  01:49 We've been waiting for too damn long, man. God dammit. It was too tough.   Pouya LJ  01:53 It was too tough. Yeah, no, it was long. And I think I think the part that was long was probably, I guess everybody, like most people would say the same thing. But it was probably the toughest part for me, because, you know, endurance is that is the judge.   Dan  02:10 Imagine you are technically an ambivert. This means that you have as much introversion as you have extraversion. Imagine someone who has been diagnosed as 99.9% extroverted will experience this pandemic. Oh, my   Pouya LJ  02:25 gosh, yeah, no, I know. It's, it's definitely, definitely tough. And, yeah, the good thing is, I think, if we're not jinxing it, I think that the hump of the whole thing is behind us. So we are   Dan  02:40 Yeah, we are we are rolling down worst is behind us. That's the good part. The worst is behind us everywhere worldwide, because this issue cannot be solved. If I don't know just the United States gets fully vaccinated this issue that worldwide. And this means that so long as there are nations that are way behind, this is not just going to jeopardize their well being but the entire global community. So this issue can really be resolved. When this issue is resolved International. I mean, China was way out of this many months ago, but they're still not living normally. So until and unless all nations are basically on par with this, we cannot really call it over because it's a pandemic. It's a global issue.   Pouya LJ  03:18 No, that makes a lot of sense. And that's, I think, absolutely valid. And hope. Look, as you said, hopefully by the end of 2022 sorry. 2021 Oh my God, I'm still in the old calendar. By the end of   Dan  03:32 That's how we are. Like, imagine like five years from now like 2020 it's like, no Sonny's over we're past that. And it's all good. It's all good. Right?   Pouya LJ  03:44 Exactly. So yeah, really   Dan  03:46 traumatized by the experiences   Pouya LJ  03:48 like that. I know I Amen. But anyway, so by the end of this year, hopefully, we are going to experience some resemblance of normalcy at a worldwide level as you said, and until then, we keep looking, keep keeping our audience up to date on the subject, but today we're going to talk about something slightly different. But it is I guess, important actually coming out of the pandemic, and that is Right, right. And that is how to keep up our our consistency so I'll give you an example I will sometimes start working on a project and you know you have good days that you really on on task you really feel like it and you're achieving things your mental capacities up or physical capacity depending on your project. But there are days of course, we all experienced this that are not so much optimal and you have this you know feeling of dragging yourself if you will and then the natural question is okay, this is completely detrimental to your process progress because you have so many of those good days and and many days are average or below So, but you need to keep the consistency because you want to achieve your goal. And the question is, how would you basically keep that up? In spite of all of those average or below average or outright terrible days? That is my question to you.   Dan  05:17 First of all, I want to thank you for your overdramatic, you know, description, like literally, I just imagined he basically poo Jake's literally dragging himself out of the bed as he crawls, and the saliva is drooling out of his mouth, like God got to do this gut thing again, like, I kind of imagined that. But let's be honest,   Pouya LJ  05:37 believe me how, believe me, that picture is closer to reality than you imagine.   Dan  05:43 Exactly, I wanted to tell you that as well. Like, unfortunately, this is the pandemic, this really became the norm. I mean, just heard the news from New York Times about all these companies that are now trying to profit from losing all the pounds that they have actually gained with a pandemic. So we've really been living very, in a very unhealthy manner. People call it healthy. But I think in the process of preventing illness, we have actually abandoned health completely, both mentally, psychologically, socially, and, of course, physically. But what you're saying, unfortunately, happens to a lot of us. And I really believe that the key issue here is knowing why these situations occur in the first place, how we can prevent them from happening, and why consistency, as you pointed out, is so important. You see, that's the the main issue. First of all, the problem with consistency is not something that is limited to the confines of let's say, a pandemic or a global crisis. This is a basic fundamental human issue. I mean, we haven't had this problem, if you look at your life, I mean, the pandemic just started last year. So it hasn't been just the pandemic itself. And if you look back, or, you know, history, realize we've had problems with lack of consistency throughout our lives, whether it was in, you know, high school, whether it was in college, and somebody matters. So the problem with that is, we humans generally are wired to be more concerned about the present moment, we have a present bias, if you will, as a species. And I talked earlier about this, basically, on social media, because once we understand our very fabric as a human being, and understand that we are designed in a way that we are rather very unstable by nature, I mean, just if we just miss our sleep for one night, just imagine what it does. Research has proven things far less as basically dramatic and far more subtle can affect the way we think and make decisions. For example, the amount of glucose in your bloodstream, the amount of hormones are you today getting high testosterone or low testosterone. So gentlemen, if you're a lady, is the estrogen progesterone going up or coming down, these little changes in your home analogy is definitely going to change the way you feel. Which is why if we want to leave things to be done by how we feel, we almost never, ever finished a project. That is why we as a species, fundamentally need leaders. Because basically, what the job of a leader really is, is to just keep people going and pushing when everybody else has, you know, perhaps gotten tired, or they have forgotten the goals. And that is why leadership is rather a very difficult, basically the responsibility because the leader himself or herself, is also a human being subject to all of those, you know, things we just mentioned. However, the good thing about this issue is that we all can learn the skill of consistency, like it's like anything else, like a muscle? Yes, no one is born with the capacity, I don't know, to benchpress 200 pounds, I don't know, 12 reps, that's not going to be like nobody's born with that capacity, we have to learn it. And I believe that consistency while influenced by our childhood, upbringing, level of education, and DNA and biology, still could be learned and improved for the most part. And that is why I believe it's incredibly important to learn that if we want to get things done, we better learn to basically toughen the muscles of consistency. Because if we just want to let our feelings run the show, we almost never get any task that is long term or midterm done. Basically, it's just simply not possible.   Pouya LJ  09:30 Now, that makes a lot of sense. And I think the part you mentioned about the leaders is, and that's exactly that's why makes the job of a leader extremely difficult. Like, I mean, let's go to the extreme. Let's say you're I don't know, let's say president of a country, let's say President of the United States, and then you're dealing with international crises well, such as COVID, I suppose, but what they can't really say I'm not in mood today.   Dan  09:57 You know what I mean? Today, come on me. Don't want to just solve the problem. I mean, give me a break for five days, God dammit, man, people are gonna die, I'm gonna come back, we'll see what happens. That's not possible. And again, this is not limited to leadership and politics as part of the same thing, leadership and a team and a group and a business and enterprise, all of these things because ultimately, the leaders job, pretty much if you want to, like, you know, avoid all the sugar coating your team or the entire nation towards the goal. Even during those days when the team or the nation says now I don't feel like it are all the world is coming to an end Oh, apocalypses here, right. So for that reason we need them. However, I still believe that inside every follower, there is a leader. And good nations, just like good teams are made of the people who not only have leaders, but also the followers themselves are capable of practicing some leadership. That's called self discipline. So anytime any person uses the practice of discipline, he or she is a leader in that situation, even if he or she has a boss or a manager or whatever. So we all can learn this skill, it's just learnable. It's not easy nor fun, which is why I also stated that that push by, you know, from the top, but usually we all can learn it. And that is why I believe that consistency should be taken very seriously. Because without consistency, almost no task will get done. We need that inner motivation, we have to persuade ourselves and understand without basically consistency, there cannot be any results, we have no choice. It's kind of like, you know, when you have to take that, you know, medication, you just don't like to taste, you're gonna want to planet, okay, every eight hours or so, Oh, my gosh, I go now send an alarm here, which you got to do it because you gotta get the job done. For that reason, I believe it is incredibly important, not only for the leader to keep pushing people, but the followers themselves to practice leadership within their own basically tasks responsibilities.   Pouya LJ  12:06 Very well. So I think that Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually. And, yeah, so organization wise, that's, that's, that's one aspect of all of this. But there's also another aspect that you're on a very day to day basis, like you I know. So let's actually bring it to a practical examples, because because I know you have consistency in a few few subjects as least as such as, you know, physical activity, bodybuilding, you know, going to the gym, also language learning, like you have these streaks hours, right, using different apps such as Duolingo, etc. So exactly what what is for, for lack of a better word, and in the hopes that I'm not looking too cliche, but what is your secret? Essentially?   Dan  12:56 That's right, well, first of all, you've pointed out two things, which is exercise, and basically Duolingo, which I do daily, but the truth of the matter is, I have straits in pretty much every area of my life, many of which are not known, even sometimes to myself, but it's just like a habit, you see, I really believe that it's all your life is a result of your habits. And your habits oftentimes, are the ones that drive. So honestly speaking, there's no real secret other than creating the habit, of course, I gotta be honest with our audience, I have basically spent many years learning the concept of NLP or neuro linguistic programming. Now, I gotta be honest with you guys. If you know NLP, it's a lot easier to change your emotional associations with things that will give you motivation. But nobody has to be an NLP expert to be able to motivate themselves or have consistency. But if I want to give you the ultimate secret, everything that we do on a regular basis comes down to a reward and punishment. So the key to staying consistent in any task, whether it is to do your Mandarin Chinese practice, or Andrew lingo, I don't know for 500 days straight, or whether it is to go to the gym every single day, even if it's raining outside or don't feel like or you're sick, or trying to keep certain amount of basically customers on the pipeline to make sure you call them on a regular basis to get the business or to visit. For example, let's say one of my streaks in real estate is to contact a certain number of homeowners, and to offer them a price below the market price every single week. So like if my target is like 10 properties per app per week, I do this. However, I got to give you a little bit of a secret here and it's called rewarding yourself. You see, any time I engage in maintaining, for example, a streak in any activity, whether it is to you know, to go to the gym, whether it is to contact the customer, whether it is to I don't know, perhaps do my exercises or whatever it is at the end of that practice. And by the way, we use the sentence training people as well as animals Believe in your own eye, this technique is used all the time, I reward myself. Now that reward could come in variety of shapes. So as I keep my, for example, daily streak in my exercise, I stay forever, literally, I make a plan for like, for every seven days, when I maintain my exercise, I'm going to have a cheat day where I'm gonna have to Pete says, and I'm going to just enjoy, right, and I literally reward myself. I also have a journal, a gold journal, in which I reward my actions and streets, and I keep track of them. For example, right now, in this month journal, I know that I kept my streak on a daily basis with my Chinese every single day. But I was somehow a little bit as somehow not quite serious with my French, for example, right? So I journal my day and my goals and my habits. You see, when you journal is something we call this process gamification. And gamification is used by gaming, or basically, again, developers and gaming companies to make millions of people literally addicted to their favorite game on a daily basis. I'm I mean, right now, every single one of us who are right now listening to this program, we have some things we have a daily streak on. I'm pretty sure if you're listening to us right now you're, you know, online savvy, and you probably love social media, which means pretty much everyone who listens to this show has at least one daily streak is called Facebook or Instagram. If you're writing and listening, the chances are you have subconsciously maintained probably 300 plus days of straight on Instagram, for example, you got to check that thing that's called making something addictive. So guess what, I have studied the science of addiction and how gamification works to make users sometimes in a very unethical manner, addicted. So I'm pretty sure that Facebook and many other social and social media platforms are using some unethical ways to addict. They're basically users. And I use the exact same principles to literally get myself addicted to good things. For example, every audio book or book that I finish, I give myself a trophy for that. And I literally have used I have basically copied, I ripped off the trophy system that is used in a top gaming companies. For example, if you're a, you know, Playstation gamer, there's this system called trophies, which is a made of bronze, silver, gold and platinum. So you get the Platinum pretty much just like the biggest trophy you can get for getting old trophies in one game, right? Let here's one of my secrets to all my audience. today. I have a real life trophy system that I have ruthlessly ripped off from Sony, and I'm using it in my real life. I'm not kidding you. So on my to do list, there's a set of goals, I have associated every streak with a specific trophy. So if it's a very easy one, like doing 15 minutes of Mandarin Chinese, I give myself a bronze trophy for doing that. If it is a little bit harder and requires me to go through five languages in one day, I give myself a silver finishing a book in less than one week, I give myself a gold trophy. And this little silly gamified system. And I even literally level up myself based on my performance. Just Just for the record. Right now my level is 233 based on my streaks tissue, right? So this little silly games that I play, which I have, of course, I haven't really made that up, I actually learned this from my teachers and mentors, because they have their own similar versions of rewarding themselves. These are systems designed to reward you. And the brain is wired this way. When a certain activity gets repeatedly rewarded, especially if the activity is hard to do. The brain suddenly releases dopamine, as soon as the process is accomplished. And that dopamine rush is extremely addictive dies, I have reached out on a streak of many hundreds of almost two years in the streets on Duolingo. Because quite frankly speaking, I will find it much harder to miss my streak than not to actually go with a streak. Why? Because now I have been literally addicted to the process. Because I know that for every single day that I am going to finish my straight, I will be rewarded somehow. So the brain learns Oh, yes, it's a hard process, you get the reward. Dopamine kicks in. And this process after about 21 days becomes highly addictive. For the same reason I am addicted to exercising if I had a long flight one and I miss my exercise, I will feel much worse than if I actually do this. I was telling the story in one of my seminars. I was actually because I had a very long international flight. I was doing push ups with the permission of the flight attendant during the flight I just couldn't wait anymore. I was like, come on, man. I gotta do it. And of course it's caused a huge scene. Obviously people taking photos and videos. It was a mess, but I had to do it. And I was like now I need something to climb on. I got to do my basically push ups. Do that. Come on, sir, please sit down, and all that stuff, right. So what I'm really saying I have the same thing for every book that I finished and I finish an average of one book per week. Again, my, the books that I finish are usually all nonfiction, I do not consider, I don't know, reading Harry Potter to be certainly growth reading. So when I'm saying reading, I'm talking to like, boring type of reading, I'm talking about like, really scientific type of books, business type of books that kind of looks at you really don't want to read on, you know, let's say, on your vacation. And but the reason is very simple, because I am basically making myself addicted to the process through reinforcement and reward. So if you want to do that for yourself, anytime you want to have any good habits, whether it is to exercise regularly, to do a certain number of calls, as a salesperson, or whatever it is, you need to learn to reward yourself, that reward is very important at work comes in many forms. I use all of them. But there are basically two main types personal and social. So I actually very, you know, unapologetically, I make a public announcement of my streets every I don't know, one year or so. Because that social feedback actually, itself acts as a reinforcement. But given the person that the fact that we cannot rely on social enforcement all the time, I rely mainly on personal forms of reporting, which often comes in forms of rewarding myself, like my exercise every seven days of street and exercise means I get to eat to pee says on the weekends, that's one form of reinforcing. And in other ways, whether it is for example, language, learning, whether it is anything else, so if you want to get good at something, and you want to maintain consistency, understand your discipline cannot get you through all the time, because your willpower will never last. So I never rely on willpower. It wasn't like can you probably are the God of consistency, because you have so much willpower? Of course not. The reason is not that I have, you know, I'm still a human being like everybody else. I'm not a robot. I'm not a Google, I'm not, I don't know what Siri, I'm a human being. And I go through the same ups and downs, basically, as all other people. However, once you love something, and you're addicted to it, it is no longer difficult to do for me. missing out on Duolingo is like somebody who was hooked on social media not to have access to his or her phone for one week, that person will go berserk and crazy right? Here. That's what most people do wrong, if you like, the key to consistency is to make myself do what I hate. Yeah, well guess what willpower doesn't last, not for too long, eventually, you'll get tired. And that's what most people do. They want to go on a date start exercising, they get a little bit tired, they hate themselves start eating again. And they actually end up gaining more weight and actually first started. So the key here is you're making the process painful, I do the exact opposite. Opposite, I make the process more fun, and not doing it painful. So for me losing my streak is now going to be painful, because now I worked on it for 600 days. Imagine you work on a project for 600 days, you it's like a baby, you want to keep going at it right. And that's the beauty of momentum. This means you got to work at consistency is one of those the other series I'm gonna share with you, you get to work with consistency for only a few days, maybe a few months after that consistency will work on you. And it becomes harder to miss than to do. So when you put it all together, we all can use reinforcement, plus, basically making the process more fun. And more importantly, staying with something for about a few weeks. I call it the 21 day rule until it becomes a habit. Once it's a habit. It is no longer difficult. I gotta be honest with you. I do know there are times of course when I feel like yeah, you know what? I don't really feel like doing it. Yes. During those days, I have no choice but to use discipline. But please understand. I'm using discipline not every day. But occasionally on those days when I really don't feel like but what am I really the exact opposite. That is they want to use their discipline every single day because the process is pretty boring for them. And they will run out of juice and boom, they give up. So for me, it's the opposite. It's enjoying the process. And on those occasions, which is quite normal. It happens to everybody where I really don't feel like it. I say Listen, man, come on discipline, do it now. And I get Yeah, I do it. But I use those again occasionally and not every single day.   Pouya LJ  24:39 That's fascinating. It's actually dig. Very helpful. I think you're right. Starting it is probably first few days, weeks, maybe maybe months depending on the task at hand might be most difficult. And that's where most people end up giving up or absolutely not continuing grasp. So, in that sense, I   Dan  25:01 think you're so right now, is there anything in your life that you have really maintained long streaks at, because oftentimes is something that you really enjoy doing because maintaining streaks for some that you really enjoy doing, or something is very meaningful that maybe you don't really I don't really always enjoy doing I don't know my Mandarin flashcards, honestly, sometimes really boring. And you look at this character, it's like, God dammit, they're like, 200 points in this little shitty character. How am I supposed to memorize this? Right? So you don't always, but maybe because it's part of my identity as an international business person. So I got to learn this goddamn physical language, I have no other choice. So either it's part of your identity, or you really enjoyed, but it's something that is meaningful to you, is your writing on any aspect of your life that you feel like you maintain, you know, a high level of consistency at?   Pouya LJ  25:51 Not so much recently. So there are a couple of instances that comes to mind. I was while you were describing, I was actually thinking about this. And I guess I used to well, depends on the timeframe. So I'm still maintaining my relative. So audio books or books, they're in the same category in my definition, but reading or listening to a book for during a period of one year. So I have managed to maintain at least 25 books a year for the last six years. So that's, I   Dan  26:25 guess what? Guess what, why do you think you've done that? Big? Did you find the process to be very painful during these past few years?   Pouya LJ  26:32 Oh, no, I actually really enjoy. So I think a couple years ago or so, it was I was actually sure that I was like, You know what, I'm not gonna get through the 25. So I had to cram two books at the end of the year, which was, which was what you're saying those days that are discipline has to come in? Or you know, you really don't want to lose that streak, I guess.   Dan  26:49 But you use your discipline at the time, because you will never enjoy anything, every single day. Because we're humans, our hormones, our bodies changing all the time.   Pouya LJ  27:00 Absolutely, exactly. But but the task itself, generally speaking is joyful for me. Like reading books in general. But yeah, so so that that would be one thing was meaningful. I mean, I'm not counting brushing my teeth, I guess.   Dan  27:14 How do you reward yourself? By the way? Anybody, like finish these books? Like how do you reward yourself by that? Like, do you share, for example, some ideas about that book with your friends? Or do you put it out on your stories? Like, how do you write? Yeah,   Pouya LJ  27:26 I think I did. I think I do it a couple of different ways. Despite is not necessarily consistent. Sometimes I share a review, or a short article on on my website or Instagram, social media in general. Sometimes that's the case sometimes. So I definitely do check them off on Goodreads. I don't know if you're familiar that website. But   Dan  27:47 yes, yes. You're a fan of that when Actually, yeah,   Pouya LJ  27:50 yeah. So I always, well, not regularly, but after a few weeks, a few months or so especially at the end of the year, I tend to update that often. Now, again, I don't put every single book that I read there. But that gives me a sense of purpose, I think, in a way,   Dan  28:07 and a sense of progress. That's why progress,   Pouya LJ  28:08 right? You check   Dan  28:10 it off on basically, you know, Goodreads, and what I do is like I literally give myself a trophy. And at the end of the month or a year, you have a list that is getting bigger. You see, these are all gamification concepts. So one of the first sports I've ever had in business was gamification. And this was way back before identification was nowadays gamification is using every single application you can imagine. But when I first learned this, this was about 910 years ago, nobody even knew what the implication meant. So this is exactly what you're doing that sense of progress, every little check every little things, your number getting bigger. All of these things are reinforcements. And these aren't secrets that people can use to become literally hooked on that subject or activity. And if we do it, we have a sense of, you know, pleasure. And that pleasure ultimately creates the desire to consistency is to do the exact opposite of what most people do. Most people set a goal that is difficult. They imagined to be hard and difficult. They use their discipline to begin the process. They get demotivated and they leave it the opposite it should be done and that you should first find a way to get hooked on the process. And that process involves linking a lot of positive emotions. Now I'm talking to right now I'm using a bit of NLP concept here and call this that anchoring, or basically emotional conditioning. Now you don't have to be an expert, but you in a simple term, you literally get yourself to enjoy the process. And once you do, then you have to use your discipline occasionally, instead of regularly and that basically is possible because every one of us can actually get us to do one more day of this, you know, task, but if you don't do it every single day, no one's gonna have the motivation. It's designed to avoid pain. Yes.   Pouya LJ  29:57 Having said all of that, I have to preface this then I'm not actually so good at being consistent in general. So I think Don't take my advice   Dan  30:07 with you right now, this is not your problem, right? The problem of 99.9% of the population. I mean, with all due respect, consistency is not somebody can find in most people at the very beginning, it's quite normal. This is something that takes a lot. It's kind of like becoming a kung fu master or something, right? Or getting used to being punched in the I don't know, in the belly and say, Oh, you have no problem, right? So it's kind of like that. And but in reality, you should never ever bash yourself or anybody that you know, who has a problem with, you know, lack of consistency, because nobody is supposed to do that. I told you, we are not by nature designed for consistency. Unfortunately, our very evolutionary programming is designed to make us unhappy, unfulfilled, and live a very short life and die at the age of 25. This is our genetic, original evolutionary programming, just like animals do. Right? So in that case, we are no different in any way from animals, which is why to have fulfillments. And to have patents and to achieve big goals, we have to rise above that, which means we pretty much have to go against the nature or as I do hack nature. gamification is a great example of hacking. It's like a life hack that we use to temper with our very nature as a species, which is why we all need to work even I myself, I would I still have a long way to go in terms of consistent my others of my life. And for that reason, it's like a never ending journey, you're never there completely, you're always getting better. And we all have to work on ourselves consistency. And it takes a tremendous amount of effort. But it is totally worth it. If we know how. And if we put in the effort, then it'll definitely change our destiny.   Pouya LJ  31:50 Absolutely, I think I think it actually does in those short bursts, that I did have consistency or discharge areas such as reading a book, I think I can definitely attest to that. We're shortly coming to the end of the show. So is there anything that we missed out on that you want to talk to talk about or summarize?   Dan  32:07 Well, first of all, it was a great show, I really loved it, we talked about the importance of consistency and why we have been consistent. And then we describe why most of us and by most of them, like really, most of us have problem with this. And no one in this world. If you are a human being if you have a human chromosome, you are not, you're not supposed to be consistent. By nature, no one is consistent. So to become consistent, you have to actually work on yours. This is called personal development. And you don't have to make it so hard. We said the key to consistency is not discipline. People say like, Oh, you gotta be disciplined. Oh, the problem is your brain is designed to seek pleasure and avoid pain. That is why you always want to see what is that notification on your app, you always want to check the latest story on your friend on Instagram. These things are not does that you're just like, okay, I should be in touch with my friends. Oh, discipline opened Instagram. It's not like this, you do it because you like it. The key because it's an all others of life is the exact same thing. You have to find a way to get hooked on the process, and to use the same methods of reinforcement to get yourself enjoying the process, which is why I believe that in all areas of life, if you want to get consistent, here's the question you have to ask yourself, How can I make this process as fun as possible? And how can I reward myself, every time I stay consistent, both are important. If you do not reward for example, if you go to a circus, you see that anytime these animals do a certain jump, or go through a certain hoop, immediately, the guy there rewards him with some sort of food or whatever it is. And guess what happens if that person stops rewarding them? Well, someone's going to be a Tigers lunch very soon. This is the story that we have to go through. So you need to learn to reward. Make the process fun, number one, number two, reward yourself for staying consistent. Tell everybody that you're consistent. Go to your coach and say, coach, I've been at the gym for two months. And yeah, man, you're the best you say you bet your ass and the best. And this process is going to give you that. So it's called an example of social, basically rewards. But please do know that if you want to rely solely on social rewards, you're not going to stay consistent. So you have to create personal rewards. One example I gave you guys was doing seven days of exercise in a row without breaking a single of these streets equals to pizza on the weekend. That's one of the things I do for myself and I love pizza, especially with chicken. I love it. But the point is this, you got to create that level of consistency. And once you get hooked once you get rewarded, you do not need discipline every single day but trust me even if you love something, if maybe yes You had a very bad fight with your girlfriend. Of course, the next day, you don't have dessert for anything, let alone doing your Mandarin studies. So what you instead now it's time for discipline, but you'll be using the discipline muscle irregularly, which means you're literally your ego depletion will not get in the way. Because just like you know, using muscle make suit makes your muscles tired, using your discipline will make your ego depletion occur. And that ultimately makes it much harder. However, if you're doing what you love, most of the time, during those days where you're enjoying Li during the process, your discipline muscle is actually recovering and resting. So on those days when you had a terrible night, or you missed your sleep, or you heard a bad news, or you're hurt that you're I don't know, you cannot get the vaccine, even though you're 70 something years old. During those days, you still can use your muscle of discipline because it's been recovering throughout the process.   Pouya LJ  35:54 Amazing. That's just I think that's a good place to end. Thanks. As always joining,   Dan  36:00 buddy. Very nice. Glad to be here.   Pouya LJ  36:02 Thank you everybody for joining us. Hope you stay consistent. Also consistent in leaving comments. That would be nice for our shows. I mean and until later episode. Have a good one, everybody.

Episode 81 What do robotic Torah scribes, Bluetooth rosaries, and a decapitated hitchhiking robot have in common? They're all teaching us what it means to be spiritual beings in the 21st century. Whether we like it or not, smart, adaptive technology is working its way into our religious and spiritual lives. Will we use it thoughtfully to enhance our lives or will it just become another technological nuisance? We're still in the early days of AI, and our actions today will have an outsized impact on how it develops. Let's be intentional, thoughtful, and prayerful about how we shepherd its growth, and become the sorts of people that Hitchbot would be proud to call friends.    Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast   More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/   produced by Zack Jackson music by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis    Show Notes To read: 1) The church of AI https://www.wired.com/story/anthony-levandowski-artificial-intelligence-religion/ 2) Robot religious functions https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/9/9/20851753/ai-religion-robot-priest-mindar-buddhism-christianity 3) Funerals for robotic companions https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/09/funerals-for-fallen-robots/279861/ 4) AIBO funerals and our humanity https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/robot-funerals-reflect-our-humanity 5) Can robots pray (and a super creepy monk)...we didn't talk about this, but it is still a fascinating part of the conversation https://aeon.co/essays/can-a-robot-pray-does-an-automaton-have-a-soul-ai-and-theology-meet 6) Values-based AI https://slate.com/technology/2019/11/priest-rabbi-robot-walk-into-bar-religion-technology.html 7) The Southern Baptist Convention principles on AI (again, didn't talk about this in particular but it is creative and proactive rather than reactive) https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/southern-baptist-convention-artificial-intelligence-evangelical-statement-principles.html  8) Hitchbot (wiki) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HitchBOT  9) Social Credit system used in China (wiki article) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System  10) 5min video on what the Social credit system looks like https://www.reddit.com/r/TheGoodPlace/comments/a719ko/s1e1_chinas_social_credit_system_resemblance_to/ 11) Point system in the Good place https://howard-chai.medium.com/a-look-at-the-moral-point-system-of-the-good-place-7858215fd9dc 12) Opportunity's last words and goodbye tributes https://laist.com/2019/02/16/jpl_mars_rover_opportunity_battery_is_low_and_its_getting_dark.php   Transcript This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.    Zack Jackson 00:04 You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are   Rachael Jackson 00:14 Rachel Jackson Rabbi at Agoudas Israel congregation in Hendersonville, North Carolina. And my favorite fictional robotic companion is Data from Star Trek Next Generation.   Zack Jackson 00:30 Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Reading, Pennsylvania, and my favorite fictional robotic companion is Marvin the Paranoid Android from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.   Ian Binns 00:42 Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And my favorite is R2D2   Kendra Holt-Moore 00:51 Kendra Holt-Moore PhD candidate at Boston University. And my favorite fictional robot companion is also Data. Because I just started watching Star Trek, and I love him.   Rachael Jackson 01:07 Resistance is futile Welcome on board.   Zack Jackson 01:12 I don't think she's gotten that far yet.   Rachael Jackson 01:13 No, not that don't be fine.   Zack Jackson 01:15 Well that'll be funny in a couple weeks.   Rachael Jackson 01:20 Okay, so thank you for that question. I'm glad that we were able to start there. And as we are doing our AI series, and I wanted to talk about this in a slightly different way than we have been talking about it. So previously, we've talked about transhumanism and cyborgs. And really, what is the concept? Last time we talked about this, we really focused on education. And so today, I really wanted to focus our conversation on religion, right, what is AI in relation to religion, and that in and of itself is a huge topic. But I want to start with an example from my tradition. And this example, is the use of ritual of a particular ritual object and how, how it appears. So I'll go into a little bit of detail there. In Judaism, we read the five the five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers in Deuteronomy, from a scroll, rather than from a Codex form. And the scroll form doesn't have vowels. It doesn't have punctuation marks doesn't have page numbers. So it can be very complicated to read. And not only that, it's extremely complicated to write. It takes a scribe who's working on parchment, which is animal skin, with using a quill dipped in special ink, writing on this paper, and the letters have to be extremely precise, and everything the columns are justified. And if anyone has ever tried to hand write in justified columns, it's so crazy hard. So sometimes the letters look really long, or sometimes the letters are really squished and it's just it's a very laborious, intensive intensive in terms of time but intensive also in terms of emotional and and frankly redundancy. And for for a good scribe or for a professional scribe, a year to a year and a half is what it takes full time to write a Torah. And then each of the peaches, pieces of parchment are stitched together rolled up and Mazel Tov we have we have a scroll. I don't want to necessarily give an estimate, because I don't want to undersell those that are that are paying for this. They're a brand new one is anywhere between 40 and $80,000. Just Just to give a Yeah. Wow.   Zack Jackson 04:05 Yeah, I guess you're paying the wages for a year.   Rachael Jackson 04:08 You're paying the wages, you're also paying, like parchment is animal skin, like that's not cheap. And these use, you know, many, many animals. Again, it depends on the size of the parchment and the kind of animal if you're using, like, goat skin, how many pieces of parchment you can get per goat, like it's, it's a lot.   Kendra Holt-Moore 04:30 How big is the finished product.   Rachael Jackson 04:32 So the parchment itself can vary. It's anywhere between, say 18 and 36 inches tall. Right, so top to bottom, and of course, there's a there's borders around it so that you're not just touching the scroll every time so 18 to 36 inches. Our synagogue is lucky enough to have three scrolls of various sizes, and then you put them on wooden die. You stitch them into wooden dowels and roll them up that way. And so when you're actually scrolling the scroll, you're using the wooden dowels to move, you know, literally go through the parchment that way and that way, of course, we, we make it pretty, because everything needs jewelry. And so we put a beautiful gown on top of it, and we put some finishing touches on it, and then the pointer because you're never supposed to actually touch it. And so the thing that you're carrying around our largest one is about 50 pounds, and is over four feet tall. You know, Tao is over four feet and over 50 pounds.   Kendra Holt-Moore 05:34 It's massive.   Rachael Jackson 05:35 Yeah, they're massive write these and no, of course, there are small ones, right, you can get one that's about 12 inches, but they're extremely hard to write, which actually makes the cost go up because like you're doing tiny print then and,   Kendra Holt-Moore 05:48 and then you also have to buy a magnifying glass to rewrite.   Rachael Jackson 05:51 They're really hard to read because like I said, No vowels, no punctuation. Really hard to read.   Ian Binns 05:58 So, gosh, that sounds like an awful lot of work. Can I interrupt? Of course, is it required? Or maybe required is not the right word. But does every synagogue? Have one? That is the goal? Yes. Okay, so the goal is very, but it's not like, there's not anything written in where it says for you. It's pretty much.   Rachael Jackson 06:19 It's pretty much it's pretty much there. Yeah, it's not that you have to. But how do you read from the Torah, if you don't have one? Right? I mean, you're reading from a Codex of Hamas, a Torah, write a paper Torah. But like, if you're going to do it, like the best you can do is do it well. And so sometimes there's like loans like, oh, there's a little small synagogue over here that doesn't have one, we'll loan it to you for, you know, 30 years or something,   Ian Binns 06:44 do you have like, Are any of those in your office where you're in our worship space,   Rachael Jackson 06:50 oh, they're all in the sanctuary. And they're all under a locked cabinet. And they are all there is a fire a smoke detector inside the ark where we keep them. And the fire department knows that, that save those, like, if you're here for a fire, go right there. And we'll deal with the rest of the building. Like they're really they're that important, like they are the most important thing in the synagogue. So parchment and scribing is expensive and intensive. So the question is, will then why do it? Right? Like, why have a person do this, we've had printing presses for hundreds of years at this point. And okay, so you don't want to print the toy because you can't really it's hard to do printed to our on parchment. Okay, but now when the 21st century, and the 21st century, we can have a mechanical hand, actually write the Torah, and it can use a parchment, it can use the special ink and it just once you program it in there with all the specifications, this AI robot can write the Torah. So why wouldn't we have that and once you've put in the the capital of programming it, you just go right, you don't have to you don't have to change it up. So many times, you don't have to repay the programmer. Every time you just say, Nope, we just need more parchment more ink. Alright, so if we're still doing a halakhically, what is the role of the person? What does the person bring to this, that a robot can't or a and I'm using AI in this a not just a robot, because as I was saying, like, they can be different size parchments, the column width can be different. So you have to you have to teach the robot or the robot has to know what what justification in this, you know, full justified center justified looks like and so it has to know looking at the parchment, so it has to learn not just be programmed. So that's how I'm using AI as opposed to just a robot program. And there's a female scribe, which is a whole different category of, you know, egalitarianism and feminism that we won't get into this particular episode, but there's a female scribe, and Julia seltzer, who with I think it was five other women scribed an entire Torah together like each one of them took most of a book, Deuteronomy is really long. And then they stitched it together. And what she noticed is that their handwriting was different, that someone might have had like a little bit more of a flourish when they made the crown on a letter or a little bit like maybe one looked a little blockier and the other one looked a little bit softer, that looks different and you know, the person behind it and so now you're like I don't I don't study the scribe but there aren't that many in the world and there there haven't been so if you know the age and the location of the tour that you have You know, the person who scribed it, there is a story, there are memories, there is an intention behind it, there is an awareness of what you're doing. And that awareness doesn't exist in AI and robots. There's a prayer in Judaism, which says, Thank you like in the mornings, thank you for my soul. And thank you for the awareness of my soul. And it's that extra step that I think is missing, when we're looking at what can I do, as far as religion is concerned? So I just wanted to open up with the tour and saying it would be far cheaper, and far more accurate if we chose to do this sort of robotic arm AI printing than using a person. But it's not just about the money, right? in religion, it's not just what is the bottom line? Right? That's, that's one of the things that makes religious organizations different than, you know, other businesses or for profit centers. And I'm being kind that religions are not for profit centers, and sort of being generous to religion as a concept, in those ways, that it's not about doing it the cheapest and fastest. So what is it about? So when we look at again, using the example of writing the Torah? What What is it? So that's where I wanted to start. And so that's when one place for my tradition of where AI could be used, but we're choosing not to use it and wondering if there are places that you could see, either as an object or as a ritual in and of itself, from your traditions, or you are understandings that could or could not be substituted with AI?   Zack Jackson 12:00 Yeah, so there's a product that you can purchase from the Vatican itself. That is basically a Fitbit. For your your rosary.   12:14 Yes, I   Zack Jackson 12:14 saw that, were you It's great, because it's got its own little charging station, and you pick it up, and you make the sign of the cross on it. And that activates it. And then it's able to tell by the weighted beads, and for those of you who maybe aren't as familiar with rosary has a certain amount of beads. And the point is to hold a bead while you say a prayer, and then move to the next bead. While you say a prayer. It's a physical act while you're doing a spiritual act, in order to connect the full body to engage all of your senses, and to help you keep track of what you're doing while you're doing it. Because like, if you're saying a prayer a number of times in a row, how are you going to keep track? Like, do you lose track, you know, like, well, I guess I got to start over again, or start writing it down or something. So the rosary has long been a helpful tool for people. But in this one, it now syncs up to your phone, and can remind you, if you haven't been doing your prayers, or reward you, if you have been doing your prayers. Have you know, there might be social functions where you can encourage each other, I know that there was by the Bible gateway app, introduced a social aspect to it. And then suddenly, I started getting notifications like crazy, where all of my friends were like, connect with so and so on Bible gateway and share your daily devotional, your practice your reading. And so then that now there's this kind of social pressure, that now everyone knows what I'm reading. And now I have to make sure I'm reading extra spiritual stuff. Make sure everyone else knows how spiritual I am. And so there are some issues with that. I think we're now it Jesus says, practice your religion in secret, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. If possible, go into a closet where no one knows you're there. He says that if you are fasting, not to put on sackcloth and ashes and let everyone know that you're super spiritual, but to put on your Sunday best and act like everything is normal. So nobody knows. And so a lot of these we talked last time about the gamification of education and other things. And so when you have sort of the gamification of, of religious practice, then I don't know, you start to want to show off a little bit or feel that social pressure that a lot of the church because of, you know, but I don't know, I've never used one of these. So maybe they're great. I do love love. All gadgets. That's fascinating. That's,   Rachael Jackson 15:03 that's a great word gadget. Right? It's using tech to encourage a particular practice. And one of the pitfalls, I think, is when we make that practice public, the Fitbit idea, right, you can have your own Fitbit, and not tell anybody, by the way, and you can set your own, you can set your own, like, tell it get up every 10 minutes or get up at you know, 10 minutes every hour, or whatever it is, and you don't have to tell people, but then we get that bias built in of whoever is creating the software, whoever is creating the technology, what is their value system. Sort of like the zoo, I didn't, I never joined the Bible gateway group, nor did a join this other way that I'm going to say, covenant eyes, right? Like basically, where you can have a person, double check your browser history, to make sure that you're staying on the up and up the accountability of what you're looking at on the internet. And as we all know, the internet was created for porn. So if the internet is created for porn, then your covenant eyes need to make sure you're not doing that. I'm being a little flippant, but maybe not that much. But that then turns into, it could turn into a race of I am holier than thou Look at, look at how much I'm doing and posturing and buckling under peer pressure, and then you're losing that that authenticity, and then suddenly, it's just besting each other, which kind of goes against most religious tenants from most religions that I'm aware of, right, like, look how better I am than you are at this. But building in that value system, and I think that's, that's the really dark gray area that could get pretty twisted, when we look at AI because at this point, at least, there is not sentience and choice in AI, which means it's all about the person who's programming it and the values that they're using. Yeah, I   Kendra Holt-Moore 17:45 think it's interesting, the examples that we're talking about are, seems to be examples of what AI takes away from us, or from religious traditions, whether that's like authenticity, or, you know, like not not having a person's story behind a tourist scroll. But instead, it being you know, a robot that has like standard handwriting and all these things, or, you know, the rosary gadget that, you know, for whatever reason, there's something that we feel is missing from these rituals and relationships. And I like that all makes a lot of sense to me. But I was really struck by one of the articles that Rachel shared with us before our meeting today, and it was an article in The Atlantic called funerals for fallen robots. Yes. And that that piece was just like highlighting the emotional attachment that people have for robots and how we, you know, the, the emphasis here is not so much on like, the nature of AI itself. I mean, it is a little bit, but it's more about, I think it's more about, like how humans create themselves, like the creation of the self through relationship with objects, which is something we've always done like before robots, but it's so interesting to me, because it's like, is that something is that like, what the flip side of AI is, we gain a lot by having potentially these robots, or, you know, even if it's just like a gadget, you know, like, I definitely have emotional attachments to like random objects, just like little tokens on my desk, because of the person who gave it to me. Or, you know, I have like a pouch of these. I call them my study tokens. They're just like little random buttons and pins and rocks and little figurines that people have given to me and I set them around my computer sometimes when I like really need to Get in the zone. And you know, they're not robots, but it's like this like emotional attachment with these inanimate like metal and rock objects on my desk. And I would be so sad if I lost any one of these things. And so I think it's like a very similar kind of relationship that if we look at robots and AI, like we can still form those kinds of attachments, and they might even be deeper, if AI is mimicking the kinds of like, human effect and human thought. And I just think that's so interesting, because it I, there was a long time where I thought, like, my gut reaction is that oh, well, that's still kind of empty, though. Like, it doesn't mean anything. And then like, the older I get, and the more I've like, thought about this, especially as technology just changes, I think that's like, I think it's really a powerful relationship, even though it's very weird to think about. But like, if I had a robot, and it was like, you know, r two D two, or data or you know, any, any of our like, famous robot companions from any fictional universe, yeah, I would want to, like protect that robot friend, and make sure that it was charged every day and make sure that it was like, happy and whatever, since that robots can be happy. And I think that that whatever, whatever we can say about the realness or not realness of that relationship, I think what's true about it is that it changes who we are. And it reflects something about who we are and who we are becoming. Because everything that we have a relationship with in the world plays on or, you know, helps to create the virtues that we have the weaknesses that we have the personalities that we have. And I just think that's really cool. And really interesting, because it doesn't have to just be with humans. And that's always been the case.   Zack Jackson 22:02 I that. I think we need to take a second and pour one out for hich bot while we're at it. Do you remember hitch bought? No. So it was a an adorable two young little robot from but too young. It was like 1013   Kendra Holt-Moore 22:22 Is it like a Tamagotchi?   Zack Jackson 22:24 No in 2013. So eight years ago, these developers in Canada made this robot and they made it to kind of look junkyard chic is how they called it, where it was cylindrical body. And it's got these like pool noodle arms and legs and this adorable little face. And the point of it was an social experiment to see if robots could trust humans. So it can't walk. But it can talk. And it was equipped with 3g connection and GPS, so that it could update its own social media accounts. And it could talk to the people who interacted with it and ask them to hitch a ride to the next place. And encourage them to like talk back to it had some rudimentary AI so it could communicate with people like a chatbot. And people would take pictures with it, it would be such an honor to like stumble upon hitch bot, and you get to update your social media and be like, I dropped it off here. And now the next person picks it up. It went across Canada three different times. I think. It went across Germany and the Netherlands.   Rachael Jackson 23:35 And then it just went the second one went across Germany.   Zack Jackson 23:38 Okay, but in 2015 tried to go across the US but got decapitated in Philly. Because Because Billy and if you were to ask me, somebody who's lived in Philly, and is from south south Jersey, where it would have been killed, I would have told you it would have been Philadelphia.   Rachael Jackson 24:04 Also, just just to add to that, it only its goal was to start in Boston. I remember Following this, it was it started in Boston and was going to get to San Francisco, got decapitated in Philly. And the head was never found. Like it didn't even it's not like it started in San Francisco. No, it started in Boston, and only got to Philly.   Zack Jackson 24:29 It had made it out of the East Coast or totally would have gotten there. It would have gotten there. If you can make it out of the East Coast, then you're okay.   Rachael Jackson 24:37 Ichabod I love what you're saying. Right? Like this idea of what is our attachment both from an emotional standpoint or she's made from an individual standpoint, but then also a cultural right like this poor hitch bot was totally fine and the Netherlands and Germany and Canada and the US we were like I don't trust you. Yeah. decapitate. Wow, season four of shields calculating things. So but what? What does that say about us and our relationship? And I think that's also what you were saying Kendra, right? This, this funeral for a bow AI Bo. I might be mispronouncing it. But that's how I had heard it. Right, these these robotic dogs. And it's true that even in the military people that have military companions, robotic companions, there's a sadness there. I mean, there was there was a famous movie, it wasn't a robot. But oh, Castaway. Right, Tom Hanks and Wilson, the volleyball, right there were weird, I think the movie was quiet for what 40 minutes, there was no dialogue or something like that, something crazy like that. And we were all just like, we'll setting like, we'll set it like we were just like something. And we had this immense attachment to a movie volleyball. No, it's just, it was so powerful, in fact, could create how much of the more so something has been there, watching your back, if something has been there carrying you on. And so many of us use objects as tools, right, that I don't have a deep attachment to my laptop or to my phone, like I use them, but I don't have an emotional attachment. My son, who's who's almost seven has had the same Kindle for, I guess we got him three years ago. And he has an emotional attachment to his Kindle, like he cares for it, he makes sure that it's in the right place, he makes sure that it's clean, he's sad, when it doesn't work, he makes sure that it's it's charged so that he can carry it with them. Like, it's very different than I need to use this as a tool, right. And so for me, we're able to use a AI or technology, we're using those a little interchangeably, as an ability to start forming relationships and bonds that teach us about who we are. And in religion, it's my, it's my understanding that one of the things that religion does, is teach us and help us with relationships, relationships, and in all, in all dimensions. And and I say that in the horizontal, it teaches us how to be in relationship with the world around us and those within the world around us, including ourselves, it is a vertical relationship, such that we have a relationship with the past and the future. And it's also the z axis relationship, which to me is the Divinity or spiritual aspect, right. So if we're on an X, Y, Z axis, the z axis would be the godly aspect. Or however each religion chooses to understand that which is not known. But it's, it's all relationships as almost as a stark difference from facts. And so if AI can teach us those things, or teach us how to do those things, or encourage those things, or grow those things, I think it can be a beautiful relationship, which is a couple of the other articles that that I'll post in the show notes, or I'll have Zack post in the show notes. So I think that there's beauty in there, what we need to make sure that when we're using them, and they're using us, that we recognize the values and that we trust what's in front of us. And I think that's an important piece that we're not that we haven't fully fully digested. How do we gain this trust? Right, so so Zack brought in the hitch bot, where it couldn't trust Americans and Americans couldn't trust it. And it is no longer, right. How do we develop the trust, which is the foundation of relationships?   Kendra Holt-Moore 29:17 Yeah. And I think that it's interesting to think about the trust that we can develop with these, you know, Ai, whatever technology, we're talking about these emotional attachments, and how that's a really different that's a really different relationship to these objects than talking about whether or not AI and you know, future robots will deserve rights. Which is like really interesting, because I think there's a natural blending of those ideas where over time, if we're treating something like we're In a relationship with it in the same way we would be with the human. That conversation to me kind of feels a note inevitable. I don't know, like what the answer will end up being. But, you know, like, that's already a conversation of like, Can robots? Or should robots who are more like Android in nature? Should they be granted citizenship, which is just like, so crazy to think about, but I think is, you know, is going to be a conversation that's like, way more prominent, like way down the line in the future when we do have robots that are a lot more like us. But for now, I think it's a lot easier actually, to ask the question of like, how can we trust the technology that's in front of us? Because that feels a little bit more manageable? I think, still a really hard question, because you have to think about the ethics of, and the values that go into programming. And that's like a huge debate to have about the, you know, the cultural code of the robot in front of you, and how that conflicts with whoever's using it or interacting with it. So still really difficult. But it's, I think, still maybe a little bit more manageable than talking about, like robot citizenship.   Zack Jackson 31:45 Have you all heard about what's going on in China with the social credit scores?   Rachael Jackson 31:50 Oh, yes. Oh, it's so scary,   Ian Binns 31:53 I want you to unpack that for us. Because that was interesting,   Zack Jackson 31:55 a way of, of using AI, especially, to keep humans in line. While they're already well known for their facial recognition, and the fact that there's cameras everywhere, and that those cameras are always tracking who you are and where you are, and what you're doing.   Rachael Jackson 32:15 Said, right and said with pride that I think it was that once you enter the public sphere, meaning not your own home, within three seconds, it can identify their entire population, like 1.4 billion people within three seconds.   Ian Binns 32:33 That was crazy,   Zack Jackson 32:35 which sure helped to keep the COVID under control, but also their populace. And so they've been doing these trial runs, in some places have adopted them more thoroughly, where they're essentially keeping record of each individual person and giving that person a score based on their trustworthiness. So things that might negatively impact your social credit rating might be things like playing loud music, or eating food on Rapid Transit when you're not supposed to, or jaywalking or speeding, or this is a good one, making reservations at a restaurant and then not showing up. Oh, yeah, I'm not correctly sorting your recycling. And if your score gets too low, you might be denied things. Like, I think I read that there was like 80,000 people so far, who had not been able to get on trains, because their social score was too low, and they couldn't be trusted on it. And if you want to get out of that, it takes like two to five years to get out of that. Or you can work really hard to raise your score. By doing things like donating to charity, or giving blood or volunteering or praising the government on social media.   Ian Binns 34:06 I feel like 10s of millions of Americans would have been screwed during the last administration.   Zack Jackson 34:10 Right? Yeah. So like, if you want good things like, you know, a line of credit to buy a house or favorable terms on loans, or getting   Rachael Jackson 34:22 a reservation at a restaurant   Zack Jackson 34:24 or getting a reservation at a restaurant, like you'd better make sure that your social social score is high. And this is, I mean, this is also a society that as is a shame, shame and honor based society. And so kind of taking advantage of that. In order to control the populace, using opaque artificial intelligence like No, nobody, this is not open source data. This is stuff that's tracking your every single movement, so you might be out walking Down the street somewhere, and you reach in your pocket to get your phone and a receipt falls out your pocket, and you get docked for littering, because it knows what you just did. And it was watching you. And supporters of this. say that this is going to be a way of creating a utopian society where like plenty of people will just do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. Do these   Kendra Holt-Moore 35:24 dystopian literature come on over?   Rachael Jackson 35:28 China, they don't have it. Yeah, it's not an   Zack Jackson 35:32 like, this will finally do what religion failed to do. In keeping the people in line and making a morally just society, because it offers punishments that are immediate, and felt instead of like, afterlife based.   Rachael Jackson 35:49 Yeah. And daily and daily life. impactful, right? Not just, yeah, eventually, one day, this will come back to bite you. And that took us, but like, Oh, I can't get on the bus today. Like, oh, that has impacted my life. And this is like, I'm wondering, did they ride? Or did they take notes from the good place? With this feels, this feels very much like the scores that people are getting based on their activities. And one of the things that I am troubled by, in this just one of very many things I'm troubled by with this whole scenario is we don't actually know the end result of a single action. So let's just take the littering on on the face of it. That seems like a pretty like, we'd all kind of get behind that. Right? Like, you don't want to litter like I'm not a fan of littering, and we talk about it and we don't want to do it. And sometimes Adrian IO and you know, his friends will go pick up the litter that we find in the in the park. Right, littering. I'm totally behind that. In this particular society, as far as I have read, and I, I could be corrected, please. Having clean streets is really important. Right that there's there is a value in the in the culture of having clean public spaces, in order to have clean public spaces. Somebody has to do that job. So if somebody accidentally litres, and then they get docked for it, then people stop littering. How many jobs did that cost? There was no intent behind the littering. But the accidental littering or the wind took it away. How many jobs did that cost? And what are the life what is the life like for those people whose job was to literally be a human a street sweeper. And, and those ramifications, that we're not able to see the human cost? Again, minus the whole dystopian issue, but that to be docked for something that seems dockable. But we don't know where this where this is going. That's where I'm uncomfortable with this, like, how far are we going? Oh,   Kendra Holt-Moore 38:19 but on the other hand, maybe we should just let the robots take all of our jobs so that we can just focus on our hobbies and have universal basic income. Am I right?   Rachael Jackson 38:29 Totally. Right. I just want to start doing more cross stitching. So yes, I am 100% on board with just take my job. Right? But   Kendra Holt-Moore 38:38 but we got to have the infrastructure like you're right. That's not where we are right now. But I hope one day, we can all have our hobbies, and money and just like live our lives because work   Zack Jackson 38:50 shouldn't be all I mean, according to will robots take my job calm. I'm only point 8% likely that clergy will be replaced by AI and robots,   Rachael Jackson 39:01 right. And we have seen that so very clearly in this last year. Because the people that have been in hospitals or have died or have had a funeral, or have had any sort of life cycle moment in which they want their clergy there, in addition to whatever worship we have on the weeks, there's no comparison and holding someone's hand. That, yeah, it'd be great if a robot did my job, but I don't think a robot could do my job. Right? Because there's something about the touch. There's something about the human connection. There's something about the look in a person's eyes that says, I see you and I empathize with whatever you're going through. That we haven't gotten there yet with AI and while the technical aspects of most of our jobs could be done I think even the jobs where it's a 95%, your job could be done by AI, or robot. It's not going to be a healthy thing. Because Where are we getting those relationships? Sorry, and I'm talking about   Ian Binns 40:15 that's okay. I'm just makes me think about like, if we think about so instead of just, you know, a thought experiment, I guess on what are the things in our so not necessarily to take our entire job? But what are the things within our particular professions? That if robots or AI took over that aspect profession, what would free us up to do more of beautiful things? We could do more? Still still with your profession? Yes, hobbies? Definitely. But like, so for me. And I know, we brought this up in the last episode. For me, especially it's like grading, for example. You know, if there were robots or you know, something like that, that could I mean, obviously, it's easier now than it used to be because of technology. But if that was a way where it can be fully programmed to do all of that for me, then what? There are other, I'm certain that there, it will give me time to do other things.   Rachael Jackson 41:18 Really? Okay, I'm gonna push you on that one a little bit. The reason I say that, barring Scantron tests, which are stupid. Good. Sorry, for those that I'm offending that do. I feel like you get to know your student based on the answers, they give in the questions, that you're losing something when you don't grade their papers. You're losing, how they're thinking you're losing. And what what creativity are they coming up with? And so, so I would say, if you're not doing that, you're not seeing the individual? What are if, if that part is taken away by robots, which I'm not quite sure how you would do that equitably? I would have to be a pretty smart robot to try to grade individual questions that aren't Scantron based, or that multiple choice, how else would you then get to know the students like that, to me isn't where you spend the time, right? in getting to know like, having coffee shop our having, you know, let's sit down and chat for 20 minutes, just because like the 20 minutes, I would have spent grading your essays. Now let's just talk about them. But I don't I don't know how you could equitably do that, honestly. And also,   Ian Binns 42:42 what I'm curious about is though, that, to me, is still less thinking in the same way that things are done now. Like I'm almost pushing us to think, what other avenues could it open. If some skill, some things like that, that can become very time consuming. I'm not saying already, like, there are definitely parts that I would still need to do as human. But I think there are some things that may make it where I could end up spending more time on other tasks and other ways of getting to know students and connecting with him. potentially even more fully.   Zack Jackson 43:22 Yeah.   Ian Binns 43:23 So all by all the grading, it's okay. So I'm just curious, like, Are there ways within your professions that there are some mundane things that you're just like, you know, what, if I could get rid of that imagine I would have more time on this,   Rachael Jackson 43:38 you know, what I gotta say, I have predictive text set up on my Gmail. And I have had it set up on my like, I've been using the same gmail account for work for six years. I'm pretty like I change it up, I don't, I don't write the same exact same thing every time. But I have a particular way of talking in email. I have a particular rabbinic voice or a style that's in email, just like when you if any of you were to ever talk to me on the phone, and and I pick up and I say, Hello, this is Robert Jackson, you hear my voice go up by about half an octave. It is amazing. Um, so I have that same sort of tick quality characteristic in my email. And so now when I'm writing an email, it will the predictive text will have almost the entire sentence written if I write one or two words, and I go, yeah, that's what I want. tab, tab, tab. And next thing you know, my entire email is written in two minutes rather than six. And so as a person who writes enter between 20 and 50 emails, writes 20 to 50 emails a day. That's that's been helpful, right? It's it's freed me up to have the conversation with someone in person.   Zack Jackson 45:19 I think a database that would help keep track of who is sick? Who is? Well, who is recovered? And who's related to who would be really helpful?   Rachael Jackson 45:35 Oh, I have that for you, I can send you the link. I well.   Zack Jackson 45:38 So one that that can also like predict things. I'm thinking AI wise, where, like, I know that this person has this condition, this condition and has been in the hospital this amount of time this amount of time. And then so you might want to check in on this person at this time. You know, have you talked with so and so lately? They haven't been in church? Oh, yeah. Okay, that's a good point, there's probably something going on. Because like, my mind personally doesn't work like that. I cannot hold on to details about individual people. Especially when I have that many people. Were I think, like, Oh, I haven't seen that person in six weeks, because I've been with the other people. And I haven't thought about it, or Oh, yeah, that's right, they did get COVID last month, and I never checked back in on them. I wonder how they're doing now like that kind of a thing, connected with the local hospitals, which could update me on people's medical conditions, as well as like death of relatives who maybe aren't members of my church, like it's scanning through the obituaries of the local papers to be like, Oh, well, I have this member whose uncle just died. But they're not. The uncle is not a member of my church. And so now I know that maybe I should reach out to this person, like that kind of assistance and pastoral care would be really helpful, because nine times out of 10, I miss it. And then I realized after the fact that I could have been a comforting presence in that moment.   Rachael Jackson 47:08 Although I will just say, I do have an awesome pastoral care website that I use. And it's, it's super helpful. It's not AI. But it's really amazing to help me to help me do those exact same to do those things. Again, it doesn't connect to the hospitals. It doesn't it doesn't scan obituaries, but it helps. It's my own personal. It's my own personal pastoral care assistant. Well, we   Zack Jackson 47:33 have a lot of clergy who listen, what's the website,   Rachael Jackson 47:36 it's called notebaert. And ot e bi, rd note, bird. And it is awesome. And I'm happy to share this and happy to be a poster child's No, they're not paying me for any reason. I just love it.   Zack Jackson 47:49 But they could.   Rachael Jackson 47:53 Really, and and they are. They're totally non denominational. Like, they they listened to the Jews, and they put stuff in there for the Jews. But there's a whole bunch of stuff in there for Christians to like, I haven't, you know, communion wise, I didn't, I didn't look at all the Christian stuff, because I don't need to. And they're extremely responsive and wonderful. And I could just like sing their praises all day long. Because I think we're getting there, right? Like, we keep having these, these brainstorming so we can get there. And I think if we're not afraid of it, and I keep going back to what Kendra was saying, right, that that initially, we started talking about the drawbacks, and Ken was like, Hey, what about all the positives? Wait, it could be so great. It would like it would just be wonderful. If our values were there, right, the value of pastoral care would have to be there.   Kendra Holt-Moore 48:50 Yeah. And I think to like another way of thinking about, like how AI would like, you know, supplement people's jobs. It's not even that, like all of the things that we do in academia or as clergy. I don't, I don't really know how AI is gonna, like supplement what any of us do besides like what we're talking about now with, like databases, like technology stuff, sure. But I just think, like, there are a different category of jobs that AI can do. So that it like frees up people like maybe, maybe there will be more people who want to be clergy members, or like, you know, researchers and teachers. And since AI is doing, you know, the jobs that those people might have been doing now, we have all these people who want to do these jobs, but we don't have to work the whole year. Like maybe we're on a half year schedule. And then you know, we switch out and then the robot or not the robot that that People who would have been doing, I don't know, pick a job, what's a job that maybe AI is going to take over one day? I guess we use the idea of like the streets with images, or sandwiches? Yeah, sandwiches. You know, like, it just creates an abundance of like, time, I guess is what it's giving us, or like opportunity to do something that you might not have thought you were going to do. I don't know, it just there's, there's more ways to think about it than just that, like, yeah, robots gonna, like grade my papers or like, sit by someone on their deathbed. Because I don't I don't know if like that. There's something about that, that makes me like, like cringe a little bit, even though that's like also what we're talking about as a potential for being like really cool. And   Zack Jackson 50:51 COVID, they've had to do that. And I there are hospitals that have set up these like, iPad robots that kind of look humanoid, but they have an iPad for a head, where you can connect to people that you know, and that you love. There's even some more advanced technology out there that will have a hand on it. And then another hand will be held by your loved one who's maybe in the waiting room. And then like the two cents each other cool and will squeeze cool other sad   Rachael Jackson 51:20 at the same time.   Ian Binns 51:23 But necessary during times like a pandemic,   Zack Jackson 51:26 right? Yeah. Right. But given a normal circumstance, no one would choose that. Right.   Rachael Jackson 51:31 Right. And, you know, what I, what I hear you suggesting Kendra, too, is perhaps that technology AI as it gets there, again, using them interchangeably, allows us to really understand what we want our lives to be, especially as Americans who have been trained and our culture of just high productivity, like unbelievably high productivity that our value is based in what we produce. And then our value as a citizen, or as a person is how much effort we put into our company. Right? Whatever that as a worker, that's where it last. And so if we have the ability to, to have our job being done by something else, rather than replacing our job, like finding something else, as in was suggesting to do with that time for a job to say, great, it's done. Now I have time to be me. I to actually say it's not. Yes, maybe the average is a 40 Hour Workweek. But I don't really know anybody that does that. I don't, I don't I don't know of any salaried, that's untrue. I know of one salaried employee who works for the government, frankly, and they're the only ones that I know that's a salaried employee that actually sticks to 40 hours. The only reason I'm using the term salaried is because the employer then has to pay per hour and usually they don't want to pay overtime. And so they're they're battling this like well, you then you just have to be extremely highly productive in your hour. So that's why I'm separating out the hourly versus a salary because the the employer in that case is not willing to pay the the overtime wages often read that this 40 Hour Workweek and this idea of downtime being not a good thing. Right. So   Ian Binns 53:35 you think about like, the genius time or whatever, that or whatever it was that Google had, right, isn't it, you know, they that they didn't Google Earth, like the idea for Google Earth and the development of Google Earth? What came from someone having that? Like, didn't they have it as their job like 20% of the people's time was meant for them to just focus on thinking, yeah,   Zack Jackson 54:01 whatever. Certainly the work on certain engineers job. Yeah, they give freedom to they have like little play rooms, basically. Yeah, with little things to mess around with. And they encourage people to do that. And, yeah, but that's just for the engineers that are making things.   Ian Binns 54:16 Yeah, yeah. So when I was thinking, so this is I like that you mentioned that Rachel was still part of the job. So I guess for clarification, if there was a way that there that AI can help make some of the tasks of my job easier, right for me to then go in directions with my job in life that I couldn't have even imagined as a teacher. I would take that. Or just I know there could be some negatives there. Potentially, that that could be coming. But I would choose to initially focus on what are the things I could gain. Like that would give me the time to not have to worry about oh well. So When I'm recording this podcast, there are other things on my mind that I'm like, oh, man, I gotta get back to that someday, right? I would have to worry about that stuff. Right, I would have that time. And the things. So what I think about like within academia, so when we started this, the podcast idea, and we started running with it, and now we're doing it. And it's been almost two years, and I wouldn't trade for anything. And I'm not I'm not ready to leave it. I love doing this stuff. Right? One of the thoughts that had to go through my mind was is how do I write this down to make sure that my supervisors all the way up the chain in academia value it? And then you think about, so when you get new leadership, and they see that I'm writing on these areas that may not be as high research productivity? What does that mean? I don't care, because it's doing what I love to do. Right. And I still get to do the other things too. But that just means that now I'm adding more to my plate, which is fine. But I'm always thinking about when it comes to like, teachers. So there are ways you know, in this field of education, that could make it so that we could do some of those other things that people love to do that somehow to resolve the time or because of just exhaustion. Right? Yeah. So yeah, I think those are the things I would try out and just backing on my give that a shot, if it doesn't work, doesn't work, I try something different. So I don't think I would lose connection with the students. If I had some of those other tests that were a little bit easier for me to do at least less time consuming. Right, so that because I would use that time to plan for more different types of experiences in the classroom. When I'm thinking about class stuff, here are some different things that could potentially do in my classroom. Now, let me now got time to really plan it out. Let me run with it. That's how I would want to approach it. And it's funny while saying that the AI on my wrist was telling me, you look like you need to breathe right now. I guess my heart rate was going up.   Zack Jackson 57:06 I should think we we should all breathe, right? Yes, I know.   Ian Binns 57:09 But it says even a minute of deep breathing can be helpful. It's almost like a meditation reminder to meditate.   Rachael Jackson 57:17 Right? A reminder to to be, and I think we're at the point and perhaps perhaps it's just my limited imagination. And perhaps it's my limited vertical ability. I can't really see AI as like really intelligence. Right? Just really, I think I'm stuck in technology, and what that's doing. But I think and I hope that we have the ability to create things where where we are allowed to be human beings, not human doings. And that can be the focus. So however, we can get there, using the value systems that we have in places individuals or to whichever society and culture we ascribe of which many of us have overlapping ones, right, Amir for me, you know, feminist, and Jewish, and American and all that stuff, right, like overlapping, but what are what are my values they're in? And how can I use this technology in the AI to allow me to be a human being not just a human doing, and in that way, sort of living up to this idea that I myself, so there was a Zionist named a had her arm, which actually he changed his name, and it translates to one people. That's what that translates to, I had her um, he was writing in the late, late 19th, early 20th century, and he was defining the difference between sacred and profane. And that which is profane, is a means to an end. And when you get to the end, the object itself loses its meaning. And the sacred is that which the object itself can be used in lots of different ways to achieve many different ends and is, is by itself, by its nature, holy. And for me, that's what I want for the human being, not just the human doing, not that I am here, to do something, to do a job to do this, that and the other but to be and there and that being using the AI to create an imbue holiness in the self in whatever job we're in, whether that's in religion, whether that's an academia or any myriad of other fields that we've sort of, we've sort of touched on and when we're able to then bridge AI and religion in those ways we can see ourselves as holy that's, that's, that's my sort of my hero range. Bow in the sky hope   Kendra Holt-Moore 1:00:02 that what you're saying, Rachel, about bridging those those things is reminding me of. And this sort of ties back to a conversation earlier about religion and AI and like the funerals of robots and stuff like that. There was a late 19th century anthropologist, Eb Tyler, if you study religion, you probably know him. There's lots of like, problematic issues, we could talk about them. But the what he was writing about at that time was about animism, and had this idea that animism is like the original religion, and that it was also like a central characteristic of what he called a quote unquote, primitive religions. And so that's where we can like talk about, like colonialism and all that stuff. But the the idea of what he's talking about is that there is like this development of religion where you start out as being animistic, which, if you don't know, animism is like, basically put life or seeing that there's life or like a soul in inanimate objects or in things besides humans. So thinking that the river has a spirit, and the trees and the rocks have spirits. And so this is what Tyler's talking about. But it's interesting to me, because I, I was thinking, you know, even though someone like Tyler, or, you know, other anthropologists and people who would say like, oh, only primitive religions have animism or this idea of like, life and soul and inanimate objects, or like having these childish attachments to things. What we know or like, what, you know, if you study religion is that has nothing to do with like, this like line of progress, where like, the more advanced modernized religions don't have attachments, or don't have these ideas of life and spirit in nature or other inanimate objects. And I think like the prime, like piece of evidence for that right now in this conversation is that, you know, we can really be looking at the most, like technologically advanced places, and we're talking about how we, like throw a funeral or some other kind of celebration for our robot friend, and that it's just like this human impulse to relate to the world around us. And there's nothing that's like primitive about that, whether whether it's like animism in the traditional sense, or what we're talking about now, where we're relating to things in this new way, as technology changes. You know, our best friends are going to be robots one day, and it just is like, so interesting to see how humans are continually coming up with ways to relate to the world around us. So that's what I was thinking.   Zack Jackson 1:03:19 Yeah, it's the final words of, of the opportunity rover that struck a chord around the world that yes, you know, the opportunity rover, went for 15 years on Mars, way longer than it was supposed to the little rover that could, and then one final dust storm covered the, as far as we know, covered it up. And, you know, it's just sending telemetry data back and you know, just the battery's dying and whatnot. And somebody on Twitter, wrote, The last message they received was basically, My battery is low, and it's getting dark. And that phrase, then, like, went around the world. my battery's low, and it's getting dark. I've seen that tattooed on people. I've seen so many t shirts and mugs and like that little rover with its little solar panels, just alone on this distant cold planet. my battery's low and it's getting dark. Then there was like this worldwide morning for this little little rover guy. That will one day I'm sure be in a museum and those words I hope will be inscribed on it. So that we know that like this is a human connection. This isn't just a religion thing. This is a human connection.   Rachael Jackson 1:04:39 All the fields right the rest in peace   Zack Jackson 1:04:44 rest in peace which bot whose final we will   Rachael Jackson 1:04:49 find we will find your   Kendra Holt-Moore 1:04:52 your word   Zack Jackson 1:04:53 and avenge them. No, no, no hitch bought wouldn't want it that way. hitch Potts, fine. No tweets By the way, were August 1 2015. Oh dear, my body was damaged. But I live on with all of my friends.   Rachael Jackson 1:05:09 Sometimes that was funnier to me.   Zack Jackson 1:05:12 Sometimes bad things happen to good robots and then little bit later posted a picture of itself with its with its creators and said my trip must come to an end for now but my love for humans will never fade. Thank you friends.   Kendra Holt-Moore 1:05:31 me getting love should fade. A little little buddy.   Zack Jackson 1:05:35 Oh, no hitch BOD is the best of us.   Ian Binns 1:05:41 Data Philly.   Zack Jackson 1:05:43 Well just wait a few years when hitch bought the white comes up and saves us all from the evil forces having battled the Balrog of Philadelphia   Rachael Jackson 1:05:57 to be controlled   Zack Jackson 1:05:58 to niche all right next time

Join in the conversation as we host Elyse Archer of She Sells this week on Spiritual Dope. Connect with Elyse over at: https://elysearcher.com/ Also, Elyse, mentioned the book The Diamond Cutter, check it out below: Brandon Handley 0:00 321 Hey there spiritual dope. Brandon Handley here. The voice of a generation as we know, Mays was self self indulge every once in a while and I'm on with a quite somebody quite special Elise Archer. And I'm just gonna, I'm gonna let her do the bio for herself in a second here. But before I do that, like Elise is the reason I do a podcast. Right? Before I met Elise, I'd never listened to a podcast, or I was like, fuck podcasts. Like, that's not for me. And when I when I met Elise, Alicia, we're doing your podcast with Greg and, Mark. Good. Morning. Yeah. And, you know, and then you know, we're connecting at some of the networking events. And then I eventually hired you as my coach. And then when we got through the coach, it was for sales coaching, we got midway through the coaching. And I was like, This is more like, I'm getting life coach than sales coach. And and it's okay, because it's transferable, but like, as like, Well, you know, what, at least what we've been working on, like, it's been the sales, but I really want to do this, like podcasts, and I was fully expecting you to be like, eyes on the prize brand and focus on what you said you were gonna focus on and you got it. And instead of doing that, instead of doing that, you're like, well, how can I help you? Right, and you connect them with some other people. And that moment that that was like a life changing moment for me. So thank you for that. And I'm gonna let you do your own little brief intro. Like Elise, what do you all about? And share a little bit of that? And then we'll get it going. Elyse Archer 1:36 Oh, my gosh, I love that. Yeah, it's it's so cool, just to see what you've created in a short amount of time and to see the evolution of it as well. So yeah, thank you so much. I was just thinking before cutting on his podcast, this is so much fun for me, because I do most of the podcast interviews I do or straight business sales, personal branding. And so this is pushing my limits, because this is actually the stuff I care about, like this is, this is the real, I feel like everything I do in the sales and business world is kind of the Trojan horse to try to like, talk to people about spirituality and help them just develop and grow personally. So this is so much fun. Okay, so with that about me, I'm a new mom. So I've got a little boy, he's six months old. And that's so much fun. Yeah, yeah, it's the best. I love it. I didn't know how I was gonna feel elevated. I Unknown Speaker 2:24 know. Elyse Archer 2:26 My gosh, No, I know. And he's kind of he's past that, like the blob stage now. So he's doing things which was, but especially for my husband, Jason, I think it's more fun for him now that he can interact. And, yeah, I'm a business owner. So I do a couple different things. I'm a founding team member of a company called brandbuilders group or a personal brand, strategy firm. And then I also recently launched another brand that I'm running called T cells. And it's a it's basically sales, training and mentoring for women who want to break through six figures and learn to sell in a way that feels really authentic to them. And we can, you know, take this conversation wherever you want it to go. But that's a lot of my background is coming from corporate sales and seeing, you know, sales and business strategies celebrated that, frankly, made me feel like crud when I implemented them, because they either kind of blurred the lines of integrity, or were all about Push, push, push, hustle, and I did it, I did what I was taught, and I financially, I did pretty well. But it was really, really detrimental to not just my mental health, my physical health too. And so a lot of my own journey has been about I would say, reconnecting with myself, like how I'm actually wired, how I was innately designed and learning to trust myself, trust my instincts, trust my body, trust my intuition. And, and I'm really lit up now about helping everyone do that. But specifically, I my brand really is catering to women, because I think so much of what we're taught, just growing up is like, we, you know, our bodies look wrong, or they're not the way they should be, or they're for other people's pleasure. And it's just, it's really disempowering. And so, I'm so passionate about helping myself reconnect with my power and then helping other women reconnect with their power as well. So that's, that's a little sliver of what I'm all about. Brandon Handley 4:15 Just a tidbit. Unknown Speaker 4:16 Yeah. Just a little bit. Brandon Handley 4:18 I love it. I love it, you know. And again, you know, when we connected, it was just, I think it was a, it was just an interesting journey. You You and I are connection, right? And just kind of how that how that all? We'll call it manifested. And let's start off with the first question that so we have all day to talk. So usually like to start us off with, you talked about connecting with your power always align it with like source, right? So the idea is that source speaks through us to speak to somebody else, right, you kind of get this divine inspiration to share something with somebody else. So the deal is there's somebody listening to this podcast today that needs you to kind of ignite them to connect them to their power through a message. And what does that message to that person today? At least? Elyse Archer 5:08 I love that question. I mean, the biggest thing that shows up for me is to trust yourself. That's like I said, that's so much of what I feel inspired to share with this brand. And like I mentioned before, a lot of my journey, especially in my teens, and 20s, were, it was it was not trusting myself, and whether that was not not being proud of my body. And I struggled with an eating disorder for 17 years, or feeling like something was just off with, like a client situation or something I was being told to do at work. All the way to, you know, when we got pregnant for the first time, a couple years ago, I went into sheer panic, that I was like, I just, I felt like I was going to lose the pregnancy. And I went into sheer panic about it. Sure enough, we miscarried. And I learned in that moment, I didn't trust my body. And it's been so interesting, this journey of learning to I think a lot of times we have to like kind of be brought to our knees to be able to be open to whatever that that message is that we're meant to receive, and then carry forth into the world for other people. And that was it for me. But then even talking with my mom about it, a lot of her own experience, too, was she didn't trust her body. And I think a lot of this stuff goes back generationally. So you know that, whatever that thing is that you feel like you want to do, but you can't do or you have this intuition to do something or you're like that logically doesn't make sense. If I could encourage someone to listen to it, and trust that it doesn't have to make sense for anyone other than you and to kind of stop looking outside of yourself. Even I promise, I'll be quiet in a second. So you can respond or ask your next question. But I think about the coach I'm working with right now like this was I just did a pretty big financial investment to work with a new coach. And I knew that it was going to trigger all of my scarcity mindset that I was part of me was still clinging on to I knew it. And sure enough, a couple of weeks in it did. And I knew in my core, my intuition this whole time that it was the right move. But logically, it would not be anything that my dad would have told me to do, it would have been anything that a lot of even business mentors, who I look up to would tell me to do and I was on a call with her a couple weeks ago, and I said, I found myself going into panic about making the wrong decision. She was like, when do you find yourself going into panic about that. And I said, usually I'm reading, it's when I'm reading like a business book, or I'm listening to financial management training from somebody else. And she was like, stop it, cut it off for the next three weeks, no consumption of any of that stuff. And I cut it off, and I feel so at peace. So it's not that we want to not learn and educate ourselves and challenge our thinking. But I think at the end of the day, you know, your best path for you. And you have to trust that everything that you're doing and when you act on those instincts, it's always unfolding for the greater good and for your greater good. So sometimes just putting those blinders on and trusting that you know, what you need to do, is the most powerful thing you can do. So that would be my message. Brandon Handley 8:14 After keeping it short. Unknown Speaker 8:15 I'm gonna be all day Brandon Handley 8:20 I kid I kid I love it. I love it all like and one of the parts where you brought it to know you had to kind of come to your knees right to just kind of accept your your intuition piece for a lot of people would you consider that? You? d a fearful, dark night of the soul for you? Would you consider that a moment of a or maybe like even a dark night of the soul? Whatever, right? And then and then, you know, there's the idea I love I love what you're saying there with with your coach, because I bet you it's almost like it's almost like a deprivation for you knowing how much you consume to improve or be better or find another technique or whatever, right? Like Hmm, I have to cut all that off. Right like so you probably feel a little bit like a junkie having to withdraw from that at least look and I know this from my own experience, right? I'm like, I'm like What do you mean? Don't Don't do it all like right now. Elyse Archer 9:16 So it was in that did one thing I'll just add to that is like, she really kind of pushed me with that cuz she was I was like, but I love learning and learning is good. And I love reading. She was like, that's your comfort zone. She said, study yourself for three weeks. Just study yourself. Whoa, this is so uncomfortable. But that's right. That's what we need. Brandon Handley 9:33 Well, that's tough, too. Right. So jumping in there and studying yourself. And what I'll throw in there though, too, is like, so it's very, I'm still going through this book again. Right? Like, are you ready to succeed? I can't remember if I saw I might have sent you one too. I can't recall if I did. I think I sent you have a kid's book that isn't yours. Yeah, I Elyse Archer 9:50 don't I'm not familiar with this book. So Brandon Handley 9:52 this is Sreekumar Rao. This is actually by way of Elise Archer at some point. It was back in the day when we were doing the coaching There was a guy that I looked up Sreekumar Rao on like, you know, you are hardwired for happiness, right? And turned out like, you almost cried, watching his little story or whatever. And I was like, Alright, well, I gotta get his book, got his book, yada yada went through it. But one of the pieces in here it's just really talks about there's two pieces in here that you're saying that resonate with me. And one is like, talking about putting all that effort in, right? Like I gotta do I gotta do I got consumed content consume content, you were finding like each time you like power, something that didn't correlate with how you were feeling or doing it was like, it was like, striking the wrong chord. Right? Quite literally. It's like, you're like that is that is out of that is that's out of tune with who I am. Oh, my God, I need to make an adjustment because this person, you wrote this book, he's an authority. Right? He Unknown Speaker 10:48 knows. Oh, my gosh, I Brandon Handley 10:50 shouldn't Holy shit. Did I do the wrong thing? Right. So that that's one piece, right? is to not let the wrong thought in your head. Right? It's better. It's like better like like literally cut yourself like with a razor. He says in this book, this came from like a Swami. Right? It's better to cut yourself like a razor than to let the wrong thought into your head. Hmm. Right. which I know sounds to me. Like, you know, that's that's kind of what was happening to you. Like, you know, you're you're on your path. But you're like, you like this guy's awesome. I love 98% of what he does. But this piece right here is just like a BB in my mind, right? breaking all my shit. And thank you so much. Right? And then and then the other piece is like, we're trying to do it so fast. Right? We're trying to we're trying to do is we want it so bad. We're trying to do it so fast. There's another story in this book where he talks about the idea of, you know, if you try to do it so fast, and with so much energy, it's actually gonna take twice as long. So it sounds like your coach sounds really similar to what your coach is saying is they stop taking all this like outside influence and jam in all this into your cranium. Study yourself, trust yourself. And that's what you're saying to is like, kind of trust yourself and believe in yourself and kind of tune out all the other shit. Elyse Archer 12:01 Yeah, well, that's so interesting what you said about if you try to like, push and force it into it so fast, it'll take twice as long. It's interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that. But because it's counterintuitive. It makes a heck of a lot of sense. Because you're kind of going up river versus letting yourself flow and stuff, right? Brandon Handley 12:18 Yeah. here's, here's how, like, I've visualized it more recently. And this is like, this year, right? Imagine, like, you feel like you're literally putting all the thought energy or whatever things, right? If we're putting all this energy into this place, right? Then nothing can get in. So if we create space for something to come in, right, if we back up for a second, and let it come to us, then it comes to us, right? Because otherwise we're blocking it. We're like, I've got to put everything into this spiritual energy, right? Like, I've got to put all of my, you know, essence energy into this thing. And I want it so bad. If it doesn't, we've got all these things caught up with it. And instead of like, I do really want it I want it really bad, but like, I want it and kind of like, the way I like flowers and, you know, gardens and stuff where if I go and I plan it, you know, there's that whole other thing to where, like, you know, if you plant something you don't keep pulling it up, right? And check into the roots and be like, you plan it. Come back up. Yes, it does what it's supposed to do. Yeah, it'll do anyways. And those are some thoughts that are like, you know, coming on mine is I'm hearing your story, right? I'm hearing like your coaching unfold. So thanks for letting me ramble on Elyse Archer 13:26 I love this. This is no I feel like I'm getting a good like a spiritual lesson from you. And this this is awesome Brandon Handley 13:31 was so that was so here's the other thing, right? Like Elise guys is I went through like my quote unquote, like a call, quote, unquote, because nobody can like point a finger and say, Hey, that was an awakening experience. But remember, if you don't remember that time, I called you up. I Unknown Speaker 13:43 was like, Oh, yes, Brandon Handley 13:44 I went through some shit. I don't know what it is. And it's like an awakening experience. So Lisa's been again, guys that's, you know, just want to share our relationship with the people that are listening, right, and how this kind of all came together. You came to me as like a sales coach. But what ends up happening was all this inner work that I hadn't done before for personal growth, and it manifested into culminated into like kind of an awakening experience. Right. And from there, we still maintained and again, that was another thing where you were like, Well tell me more about that, like, because you're just as excited as I was for that, too. So I think that that's says a lot about kind of who you are and what you accept in your life. So I do want to hear like, you know, how you talked about helping people find themselves spiritually through your own process. And I'd like to hear how you're doing that. Because what happened with me might not have been intentional. And and, you know, how do you feel like you're doing it intentionally right now? Unknown Speaker 14:43 Oh, wow. Elyse Archer 14:45 Yeah, gosh, I don't so I don't have like an intentional method to it. I think it's more me think about that cuz I want to actually, I want to, I want to think about what the right or just what the true answer is for me there. I think I think for me, a lot of my own journey has been around overcoming a lot of feelings of unworthiness and worthlessness. And I think a lot of that is conditioned, that's part of why a lot of the, like the clients I work with are in a business environment in a business setting. And so a lot of times they'll come for, you know, I want to make more money, or I want to grow my personal brand and presence and just through that process, usually what comes up is, are there tactical, pragmatic things that they can do to do that? Absolutely. But also, and I think the more important thing is we dig into just limiting beliefs that are showing up for them around, you know, I want to make this amount of money, but even the word want means you don't have it, right. So it especially the women, I work with those, those cut, you hear more than their story. And they talk about feeling unworthy or scared to show up or scared to speak up. And it doesn't matter how good your website is, or how good your sales process is, if you have that limiting view of yourself, you're only going to be able to operate within a box that's like this big right? And get results that are about that big. So I really like I said, I don't have a set processes, something I'm kind of like working on developing on right now. Because I do want to be able to take people through a more like a more intentional process. For me, it's typically kind of intuitive with my clients. But that's usually what I'm listening for when I hear my clients talk is, what are they actually saying about themselves. I was on a call with a potential client the other day. And the first thing she said when she got on our call was she said, Oh, you know, I'm just sitting here procrastinating, like I always do. And she's a woman who wants to break through six figures this year in her business, and she's a go getter. And she you can tell like she's you know, she's an aggressive goal getter. But the first thing I said was, whatever you describe you prescribed, right. So if you're sitting there saying, I'm procrastinating, like I always do, you're going to continue to procrastinate on accomplishing your goals on making your sales calls on whatever it is. So I just I think because so much of my own journey involves poor self talk poor or poor self image, I can hear it, and I can see it and other people. And then that's what I try to pull out. Because usually we're just we're not even aware of it. It's so ingrained in how we think and how we talk. And most of the people around us usually use disempowering language and thoughts. And so it's kind of just part of our society. But once you realize, once you're aware of it, you can't unknow it. Right. And so I care so much now for myself about how I feel and how I speak about myself. And I try to get my clients to that same level of self awareness. Because the tactical stuff is like 5% of the actual process, the 95% of it is how you think and what you believe you deserve. So I don't know if that answered the question. Like I said, there's not a real thought out process. It's super intuitive for me, but that's, um, that's that's kind of how I do it Brandon Handley 18:01 a little bit. I mean, it sounds like there is right, so the process is to kind of just identify where they are, right? You know, are they saying something that, you know, you've been able to get look as, I don't think it's any different than being a doctor, right? Kind of, when, when you first start off, you're like, maybe I shouldn't amputate that leg, I don't know. But I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and cut that one off, you're doing the same thing with like somebody limiting beliefs, right? Or identifying it. And over time, over time, like you become skilled enough to be like, Oh, that's this. That's this. That's this. That's this just because of your exposure, experience. And then your own way of working with people in that space, seeing what works. A lot of these things that you're using a lot of the tools that you're using, I'm guessing, aren't brand new, right? These are tools that have been around for quite some time that have had success for years and years and years. It's just how do you how do you share those tools with these people? So what would be like one thing that you help? Like, when you identify like a limiting belief within somebody else? Right? How do you how do you identify that for somebody to get them past that? Yeah, well, I Elyse Archer 19:07 think the first thing is just reflecting it back to them. So that's part of where there is value in having a coach a mentor, just somebody who can hear how you talk. And and actually help help you become aware and almost be a mirror for Do you realize you just said that? Because like I said, oftentimes, our language is so it is it is so subconscious, we don't even realize we're saying it. So it's like, hey, do you realize you just said that? And then oftentimes people don't even realize it's a problem. They're like, well, so you know, so what? So what did I said that and I think so for some people, they're already really into law of attraction and, and positive self talk, but for a lot of people I work with, they're not familiar with, with what that means, and how it how it impacts them. So we talked about, you know, whatever you're saying you're giving a command to your subconscious to create this thing in your life. And so we start to look at what's a new and better and different way you could say that The other thing that has been really profoundly transformational for me in my life and that I recommend for a lot of my clients is Joe dispenza his meditations like I am, I'm guessing you follow Him, and I'm such a fan of his work. But every single morning, I'm doing those meditations. And I asked my clients to do the same, and it helps you start to feel the feelings of abundance, genius. Courage, right? All those things that, that we want to embody. And so I get all my clients doing that, as long as they're open to it, and that is pretty darn transformational as well. Brandon Handley 20:40 Now, 100%, right, yeah, Joe dispenza is great. He's one, there's one that I listened not not even. Not even a meditation, but he's got like a 10 minute piece that like I listened to all the time. It's just, it just reminds me like not to look at like, not to look at my social media first thing in the day not to, you know, to retune yourself, right, like to retune your your whole, you know, your whole experience? Do you live life on your terms? Not according to what kind of everybody else is already doing? And that's why I enjoy him and that. So meditation, getting them to connect with the meditations? Or where did you find that to be kind of like the game changer? a game changer for you? Hmm. Elyse Archer 21:24 You know, it's so I've been meditating off and on for probably five years, probably, well, I really longer than that, but like, actually really going for it for about five years. But I would say it's, I kind of, I would do it for a while, and then I'd get off of it. Because it was like, you know, I'm still I still was in the mindset of i, this time would be so much better spent if I was sending emails or creating the social media posts. So I was still in that mindset. And really, I would say, it's, it's honestly been more in the past few months that it's kicked in, for me how critically important it is. Where, even though I think I had done a fair amount of work on releasing anxiety, and like I mentioned, like not trusting myself and stuff. So I'd gotten to a pretty good place about 12 months ago, but I still would have almost this low grade anxiety running all the time in the background, especially on Sunday nights, looking at the week ahead of like, Oh, you know, I've just I've still got all this stuff that's been done that I thought I was gonna try to get done this weekend, did I just piled too much on my plate, and then I would kind of beat myself up about just not being, you know, good enough. And I Gosh, if I was better, I could have gotten this done. So it was this habit in this perpetual like cycle that my body was almost addicted to the feeling and the anxiety. And some time, I think sometimes we just have a moment. And for me, I just had a moment, I was like, doing it this way, has gotten me this result. I've been feeling this low grade anxiety for years for most of my life. What if I didn't have to feel that way? What if that wasn't the reality for everybody? What if I was what if it was just a decision that I was going to feel differently. And that's when I started really doubling down into a lot of Joe's work, and into just studying, you know, the different energy centers of the body and how to get them in coherence. And I will say, I mean, it's a very short time as of the recording of this interview, but for about a week now, I've had really consistent checks up brain heart coherence, where you just you feel like in the flow all the time, no matter what. I had that for about a week, and it's been so transformational. Like, I'm not afraid of anything that's coming, I'm not anxious, I'm at peace, I'm present. With the people I'm talking to. I'm excited. I'm not triggered by stuff the way I was. And it's just it's a totally different, I was able to get there like a little bit before and I could get there and kind of keep it for a while during my meditations. But then something would happen in life, and it would trigger me or throw me off and I'd have to like work to get back. And it's been really darn consistent. For like I said, about seven days. And I think it's it was just a decision of, I can have this all the time if I want. And so now i'm i'm showing up on that meditation, that was some ferocity my friend cuz he's like, Oh, this is good, how much? How much better could it get? Brandon Handley 24:19 You show it to meditation be like, I'm gonna take this bitch down. Yes. So so that's great. So there's, there's a word that I use in tandem kind of with, with with, with what you're talking about there. And that's the word numinous. Right? Like where you've got this connection to source and it's just effervescent. And it sounds like that's been your week, right? Nothing can derail that, right? There's nothing stronger than it and there's no worry, you've given yourself some trust, you've given yourself some grace. And there's a it's just such a great feeling, right? Like how did happen and where's and it's always been available. Right, that's the thing like to you're like, well, all I had to do was make a decision to make this a conscious choice. Elyse Archer 25:06 That was it. Yeah, that and it's and it's not like nothing has happened, like, I got a mega tax bill I wasn't expecting because of a miscommunication with my accountant. And in the past that would have that would have thrown me, you know, and this I was like, okay, like, I, you know, I am being honest, it threw me for a couple minutes. And then I just like I'm snapping back into it, because nothing is worth sacrificing this level of vibration and awareness and feeling nothing. So we're just going to do it and move on. Yeah, Brandon Handley 25:37 yeah, no, absolutely. 100%. Right. So I thought I definitely talked about this in my process, too, right? To where you make the decision, right, literally, like, so I created that, you know, this thing called the divine framework, right, the first piece of the first piece of this puzzle that you just talked about, is to make the decision. Yes. Right. Like, this is it? This is I'm going for it. Right. But the one thing that, you know, you talked about, like kind of this belief system, you talked about the boxes right and and discover on uncovering kind of like the those limitations, right? Those self imposed limitations. It's kind of like this whole mindset thing. This is just how spirituality has kind of shown itself for me, right? Like I did the I did the coaching with you awesome stuff. Great stuff went through like law of attraction, right? And I was like, well, this is this is all kind of stuff that I'm putting out there. What if I shake it back and understand that this is a benevolent universe? And that it probably wants things more for me than I actually want for me. What can you show me? Right? And how can I take who I am eternally spirit, like spiritual DNA is perfect, right? I mean, we all have, we all share the same spiritual DNA. But I went from having a human mindset with all these worldly things that we know how to use, right. And, to your point, I've made it this far with this human mindset with this human capability. As like, what happens if I choose divinity? What happens in right? What happens if I'm connected to source at all time? And if I accept that source is everything, right? Who, you know, what am I capable of then? Right? And so that's just fucking blew the lid off it. I'm like, you know, and that's, that's that again, just another choice to make right then. And so you can take a look at spirituality and the, you know, you can call it maybe it's Christ consciousness, I don't know, right to decide, like, Hey, listen, this is this is Buddhist consciousness, I make this decision to do what you did, to say. I'm just gonna stay connected to this ship, because I feel real good. I don't have to drink to get here. I don't have to get high to get here. All I have to do is show up and decide to be here. It can't be that easy lease. Elyse Archer 27:56 It's it. It is literally it is a decision. I mean, that's it. That's been a huge lesson for me in the past 12 months that I think we could be scared to make that whatever the decision is. Whether it's a decision to show up differently, a decision to to move right a decision to, for me invest in this, this high level coach. One other thing that happened for me a couple months ago is I made it not I guess it was more a month ago, I made a decision to spend more money than I knew where it was going to come from to work with this particular woman. So I felt very intuitively guided to do it. And I remember going through the fear and I like I said yes to her verbally. And then I like kind of shrugged back for a week and I vacillated It was like, Oh, this is a bad idea. It's not it's not responsible. It's not smart. And I reached the point. And I think you saw my video I did on Instagram about this. But I was just thinking about why am I not moving forward on this. And it was the fear of the unknown. It was the fear of making a bad decision in the unknown. And, but what it reminded me of was, when I was in my late 20s, I was in a just a, I was in a marriage that was really toxic. And I was so scared to leave because I was afraid of the judgment of being young and being divorced. And my family put a lot of money into the wedding and we were only I mean I knew before I got married to him I shouldn't have but at this point where I reached kind of the turning point we were like 1214 months in I was so scared to do it because of the fear of judgment and what was going to be on the other side would I ever find someone who was actually a good fit for me all that stuff. And I just reached a point where I said it can't be worse than this you know so let's let's pull the trigger and do it and so I I asked for the divorce and six months to the day that I did. I met Jason who's my husband I knew within minutes that he was going to be my husband. very inconvenient by the way in North Carolina. You've got to be separated for a year so we were still tech Are you gonna you remembered for a year for you to get remarried. Brandon Handley 29:58 For the for the guys out there. They listen, they're gonna probably, they're gonna want to know, what can somebody do in a couple minutes to make some money? Unknown Speaker 30:07 Right? I Elyse Archer 30:08 know, I know. Yeah, they are. He just showed up and I was like that, you know, you hear about you know it when you know it, you know it I've never had that experience before. But I, I knew him. I knew that I was meant to be with him. So that's a whole nother story, because then I had to proceed to chase him and date him and all of that stuff. It was a frustrating courtship, I will say, but here we are. So Unknown Speaker 30:29 if I had to do one, that one, I won that one. Yeah. Elyse Archer 30:33 But if I had not left that situation that I was so scared to leave, I would not have met him. And we would not have our son jack now. And that just puts things into perspective for me. And I think everyone can relate to something in their life where they've been so scared to make a move, because they didn't know what was on the other side. But think about what happened in your life is a result of what you have now that you wouldn't have had if you hadn't stepped out in faith. And for me, that was like, this is it. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen on the other side of this, but I know, I can trust my intuition that's leading me to do this. And I know something really good is gonna unfold, even if it's not what I'm expecting. So it's kind of that surrender, like, Alright, I'm along for the ride. Brandon Handley 31:16 That's it. I mean, that's it. 100% right. You know, it's, it's following your intuition. And kind of, you know, trusting it. And for you, you know, that's seems to be working fairly well. Seems like, hey, look, what I love, too, is like, you know, listen, no matter how much of this work you've been doing on yourself, I've been doing myself, anybody out there has been doing it themselves. years, right. You're still catching yourself, like beating yourself up? Right? You're still catching yourself. Like, you know, there are moments where everything's not fucking perfect. And that's okay. Like, and I think that, I think that that that can be a challenge too. Because to accept that right to to be able to say, this, this moment, right here is not ideal for me. But that's still going to show up no matter how much work you do. And I think that that's important for people to hear and understand. Because they put themselves in into, oh, I shouldn't be feeling this way I shouldn't, then they beat themselves up for feeling that way at all. Like you're saying, like, I shouldn't be doing this way. And, and and I should be you should I've done it differently. And all these other things. And I've had another guy that had on and I know well, you called it he has the acronym, acronym Tina, right? There is no alternative. However you did it, right. There's no alternative to what's already been done. Right? The only alternative mate would be like your perspective on that, like, as you move forward, you'd be like, you know what, you can look back and be like, you know, what, in my mind, at that time, this is what I thought was going on. But now if I look back, it's a totally different scenario. your perspective on what happened may be different. But the actual event, there's no changing it. Right? That's your your way past it. Right. Yeah. But you know, so how would I mean, a dress that though right, especially for you know, you again, being a coach, having gone through, like all this work, and still finding, you know, yourself kind of having those challenging moments? Do you accept those for yourself? Or do you beat yourself up for having those and then, you know, how do you get through it? What do you do from there? Elyse Archer 33:28 Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I, so I do accept myself for having those. And I used to beat myself up a lot over it. And I think a lot of that is just we see people, whether it's our parents, or like, for me, I saw I like, I love my mom dearly, but I saw her do that my whole childhood growing up. So I that's how I operated for a long time. So now with those moments, I am so conscious of how I talk to myself, because I realized if I beat myself up, I'm only perpetuating the negative emotion negative feeling, I'm just going to attract more of that back into my life. So yeah, I mean, even yesterday, I had an introduction to like, a big time, big time, big time podcast to go on. And I had been like, really psyched up. Unknown Speaker 34:11 You know, we've been talking for a while. Unknown Speaker 34:14 See, it's always working. Elyse Archer 34:18 So I had this. So this was like, you know, like, top 100. Like, it was a big it was a just in terms of audience a big show. And so I got myself kind of psyched up for it. And I get on the call with the woman I'd been introduced to who is kind of like the gatekeeper and she was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. If there's a misunderstanding. You know, he's booked up for a whole year like I just really wanted to get to know you. You seem like a cool chicken. It was like, in that moment, I felt I felt disappointment. And then I gave myself like two seconds to feel it. I was like, okay, nothing is worth feeling that nothing is worth perpetuating that. So let me instead flip this and focus on how can I show up for her in this moment because I genuinely believe everything is always working out. For me, and if this is not the thing that's meant to be right now it means there's something even better down the road. So cool. So let's have fun with this. And let's like, show up and have fun. And then who knows what will happen in the future. But I think it's that an attachment to like things being so perfect that for myself, for a lot of people, right, I think a lot of women I work with everyone, we can get kind of caught up in perfectionism, and things have to turn out the way we thought they would. But when you can be kind of unattached and just more attached to like, feeling good and having fun and showing up in the moment. It's, it's a heck of a lot more enjoyable. And you end up Brandon Handley 35:35 Yeah, listen, you could find yourself on spiritual dope, too, right? Unknown Speaker 35:40 I love it. Brandon Handley 35:41 But the deal is to have right like, I mean, that is, you know, the dude, you're talking about that seven days of being connected. That is, that's the spiritual high, right? That's, that's the, that's what the spiritual dope is. That's the hits. You know, when you got that meditation, and you've got that meditation buzz of man, I was just so connected, I was so aligned, I was so detached from, I don't want to say worldly things. But I was so detached from all all the activity and things that I felt like we were talking earlier, like, oh, maybe I gotta go make another pose. Maybe I got to go do this, maybe I got I got, I've got 10 minutes, I can squeeze in like five posts, maybe I can I am in and check for emails, right. And instead of being like, like, your coach is saying, Go study your fucking self for a minute. Right? Like, you're pretty special. Right? recognize that? You know, I think more recently, you know, some of the meditations that I'll do would be like, how far can you visualize yourself out? Right? And I'd be like, oh, infinite, right? The edges of the universe? Yes. But then more recently, I was like, well, inside is just as infinite to like, how deep Can I go into myself, and it's infinite. So it's infinite internally as much. So like, that was there's been like a new rocking revelation, right? Like, where you just kind of you go internally, and you just hang out with yourself. And you see that, like, you know, you are 100% connected to source at all times. And it's like, you're saying, it's a choice to say, I'm connected in this moment, to the person to the lady that was on the call, or title for my own shit. And I could I could show up and be there for her, or be tied up my own shit. And again, you're like, I'm gonna take this moment, be there for her. And be open for the intuition, the inspiration, what's coming out of this that is meant to be like your best. Elyse Archer 37:35 Yes. I don't want to add something to what you said about just studying the depth of ourselves. So one of my girlfriends, her sister, passive cancer a couple years ago, and they were super close, super, super close. And I wouldn't talk about this on most any podcasts. I'll talk about it here because I feel like you'll get it. So she her sister passed. And then a mutual friend of theirs, called my friend out of the blue a couple months later, and she was she was like, I don't know, I just feel like I have to call you. And we needed to reconnect. And this, this woman also channels and connects with people on the other side. And suddenly, while they were talking, my friend's sister Lauren started coming through her and say, like, really literally reconnecting with my friend and what Lauren was saying, was, she said, You have no idea how big we are. She said now that I'm on the other side now that I can see it. She said, imagine like zoom out look at your house. Imagine you're looking at it from above. You see the house and then zoom out to the block and the street and then your city and then the world and then the universe. She said you're so much bigger. She said we are so much bigger than we know. She said I can't wait for you to see this and know this. But she was just like, it's you should have this this one on your podcast, I can introduce you because it's powerful. It's so powerful. But that perspective from the other side of are so much bigger than we can even fathom. Have Brandon Handley 38:59 you connected yourself to that yet? Um, have you had that experience for yourself? Unknown Speaker 39:04 No. Have you I want to Oh, can can you tell me about Brandon Handley 39:07 it? Because I mean, it's you can't right that's the whole Yeah, you can't that's the whole like, mystery school mysticism. translate that thing now? I did do I did do one good podcast on it where I'm not sure if you've done breathwork yet. Unknown Speaker 39:23 A little bit not Brandon Handley 39:24 not a ton, but a little bit. It's like it's it's it's like, cracked out. Meditation. When done when done well, like when you when you nail you'll know when you nail it because you'll come out of it. Like, what the fuck just happened? And can I get more of that all the time? Anytime? And the answer is yes. Right. Which is also powerful because that's just like, like I said, meditation force multiplied and add connections and scenes, that you know, in those moments, that that's the That's just like a knowing, right? Like, it can't be anything other than that and and more back to what you were saying before is it doesn't you don't need an external validation for that type of thing. You know this as truth. Right and and so, yes, right and that's the that's the question all right and and you know, I had similar experience to where this actually so to Elise has meant guys just again so lease is a lease is actually responsible in part for spiritual dope as well I don't know if I told you that or not it was the interview without What was her name last one you got me in contact with the spiritual Unknown Speaker 40:41 Oh, Regina Yeah, Brandon Handley 40:43 so I interviewed Regina for the prosperity practice which in its own right was fucking awesome. I did love it and actually enjoyed it. But I also realized that I was I was kind of, you know, trying to sell the people what they wanted, but then give them what they need. And finally, I was just like, you know what bucket like your friend, right? Like, a much bigger, you know, spirituality, right? our spirits are much bigger than our bodies and it's self evident. There's like, you know, recordings of it with just even just with your resonance, right? You talked about also like the mind, mind heart coherence, experience that often, right? And that's through meditation, but again, like through a number of things, once you recognize how to connect that and resonate that piece, and then you're like, oh, like, like, all the time like it just like, it's so great. Anyway, so yeah, so I interviewed her. And I was like, Why? Why am I holding back? kind of the best part of me? The best part of like, what I believe, right? Because here was this, you know, here was this, you know, ex lawyer fucking doing it. Right? And I was like, why am I waiting? Right? For who? Who, who? And then this came all the way back from my first podcast. So anyway, so first podcast was like, who gives me the authority to do this, right? I do. You do. You give yourself the authority to be you, right? You know, to go out and do the things that you know, that you can do that you're capable of that you're called to do, right? And that's what you're doing now I get to be a witness to seeing you punch through like each layer of that shit, right. And that's what's been fun for me to kind of watch you too, because we've had I feel like kind of similar experiences in that way be like, like, this is all shit. I'm out of here. This is better, but and it's not even leveling up. Right? It's just finding yourself in a different space because even even to a different level of awareness to what already is. Right? It's just and goes back to your belief system be like, how When do I get to the side? Like, there's more? Well, there's a whole universe that is currently yours at your disposal. How do you want to use it? Right? Do you want to use it if you if you again, if you want to use your human self have fun with that. Right? And you've experienced that? What do you want to do with your Divine Self? What do you want to do with your universal self? Like what other kind of mindset Can you put yourself into and there's again, that's unlimited to Unknown Speaker 43:16 this is so good. Oh my god. Yes, Brandon Handley 43:20 yes. Yes. So again, guys, it was Elise who connected me with Regina and then when I connected with Regina, my wife had a friend who was medium as well on channel with me so it was combination of my wife whose childhood friend who she connects me with my grandfather like my closest you know, kind of Anthony in my life and and doing it with Gina and like, it was like the the medium wrote like a coming out letter of like, mediumship, right, like to her family, like I'm coming out of the closet medium type thing. So I was like, I was like, You know what, fuck it I'm coming out of the closet like spirituality and we're just we're just gonna go do it and ever since Sinhalese blown up blown blown. I mean, just the doors been blown off the people I've connected with, you know, I just interviewed my man here. I released you know, and and that, that was no following intuition. There was a 215 phone number, which is a Philadelphia area phone number. I was like, You're fucking up here. I'm calling. And I just called. I was like, I was like, I was like, Listen, I was like, I got like, you know, his pm and she was awesome. knew where she lived. We had this great conversation. I was like, I just got to let you know I love this book. I've gone through it like four or five times I leave groups on it, yada yada. Would he be open to being on the podcast and she goes, You know what he normally he hates them. But let me see what I can do. That's so cool. But again, so thank you like this is kind of like a trivia tool, a lease podcast. A lot of a lot, a lot of things because it's been a lot of fun and without your support. You know, in part, of course, like us, all other all other people that have been a part of the journey, but you've been a big part about it. So I thought I'd share that with you. Elyse Archer 45:11 Thank you. Thank you. Well, any audience? Yeah. And I think to just to see kind of how you've, you've taken every step of your evolution and turn it into something that's good for other people. And I think that's really cool. Because I do think back to when we were first working together, and it was like, how do we sell more of these? Brandon Handley 45:32 things? Right. But that goes back to what you were saying, like how, you know, there was like, you know, you were selling stuff, and you were doing it where like, there was like integrity issues. And it's like, yeah, you could sell something. Yeah. Maybe you could overcome some objections. Yeah, you maybe get this person to do this thing. But like, in the end, at what cost to you? And who? Elyse Archer 45:50 Yes, exactly, exactly. Like, what is it actually all about? Yeah. Brandon Handley 45:55 Well, so how do you I mean, I think that leads into a really good piece. So So how do you do it now where you've got it all tied together, that you feel aligned with what you're doing. Elyse Archer 46:04 Um, I just really listened to what, what my body says about what whether it's working with a particular client, whether it's launching a program, and I don't fault myself for changing my mind, either, like I launched something new with the rollout of my new brand that was actually it was based on what a shaman who I follow what he does, or just like a $10, weekly, I drop in, he goes a healing temple. And it's so much I was like, Oh, we should have that for sales, that would be so much fun. So I did like a $10 weekly drop in sales training. And it's been, it's been fun, but it's like the numbers started off really high. And then they kind of dwindled with the number of women who were coming every week. And I used to go into panic about that. And now it's like, oh, cool, I'm being divinely guided to transform this into something else. So I'm transforming it into something slightly different a monthly membership, and women are signing up for that really fast. So it's like, just knowing that it doesn't have to be perfect. But if I take the, I listen to what I'm being told to do, I take the action, I'm not attached to it being that way forever. And then I just kind of keep receiving that guidance. And that's how I've launched my programs. That's how I choose which clients to work with. That's how I chose my brand colors. Like all of it, it's just all the Brandon Handley 47:21 colors, by the way. Don't go gold, white, and red, which are which are all pretty cool. Yeah, I like that too. Like you talked about, like, you know, being able to change like kind of like your your and and, you know, in the business world or be ready to pivot, pivot, pivot. But being able to pivot, right, being able to adjust on the fly is something that I think a lot of people have a challenge with, too. How do you help them to overcome that, like, be like, Oh, I made this decision to do this thing. And I was told to commit. And, man, if I, if I just stick with it, persistence, and yada, yada, yada. So how do you help somebody that's stuck in that space? Elyse Archer 48:01 Yeah, cash. And it's tough to write because we hear self discipline and persistence. And there's a lot of value. There's a lot of value to those attributes, in a lot of ways, but I think sometimes we get, you know, you hear like sunk cost theory in business. So I've put so much time and energy into this. And we can hold on to something just because of that, just because we already invested a lot of money or a lot of time. And even in our core, if we know it's no longer the right thing. So again, it comes down to intuition. And so if I'm working with the client, we kind of we look at, okay, if you were, if you were starting this today, would you do the same thing? Like if you were starting from scratch? Would you do the same thing? If the answer is yes, then it's okay. You probably just need to keep going at it for longer. Like it's just, it's keep showing up, keep doing it know that just like you said, with the flower when you plant it, it's gonna take a hot minute sometimes, and that's okay. But if you're being honest, and you wouldn't do it again, the same way today, or you wouldn't run this program today, or you wouldn't. I mean, this is a big one, but you wouldn't marry this person today. Right? Like, then I'm not counseling people and relationships. So take that for what it's worth, but you kind of look at, okay, are you attached to this just because you've put so much time and energy into it? Or are you attached to it, because it's actually what you're meant to be doing. And it just needs a little more time to mature or grow or terminate. Brandon Handley 49:23 I love that. I love being associated. Again, you know, I'm a big fan of the word grace these days. So give yourself a little grace and let you kind of, you know, let that let that life energy just go ahead and propagate the way that it's supposed to. Right. And I love though, to that you're saying you know, if you started today, would you still do this? Right? Because again, we we put all this energy into the sunk cost thing even like, well, the Titanic sinks, it's sunk, right? Like I mean, fucking let it go. Right? They jump off the boat because it is sunk costs, and it hasn't accelerated you or gotten you to where you think you should be by Now and if you were to, you know, kind of continue that trajectory, it's down at this point, right? I love it. I love it. So, what, um, you know, let's what is a, you know, a hit of spiritual dope for you like, you know what, you know, meditation, I mean, having, you know, maybe looking at your son, you know, what is what is something that, um, that's just your pure hit a spiritual dope. Elyse Archer 50:24 I mean, it's totally hanging out with my son jack now like that's just to see see the pureness of a little kid and to see how they just just their wholeness and their appearances, and his unfiltered laughter is so much fun. I absolutely love that. And then I think the other thing is just when I can show up and give or do something for somebody else that has nothing to do with me. And that's actually, when I found myself a couple months ago, like going through some of that Panic of like, Oh, my God, am I doing making the wrong decision or the wrong choice? That's part of how I would shift out of it is I would be like, What can I do for somebody else right now to get my head out of my ass and focus on what really matters. And that always, to me, that always helps. It's that quick shift. It's like, What can I do for someone else, whether it's write a comment on their social media, whether it's had a client who wants to book club, I was like, I'm gonna join my clients book club right now. And that's gonna make him feel good when he looks in his inbox and sees that he's got a new member. So just stuff like that. Right? It's, it's always kind of getting our focus off of ourselves. Brandon Handley 51:31 I love this. I mean, it doesn't have to be complex, right? You can go out there and kind of give of yourself and support somebody else in small meaningful ways. And you're gonna feel better about yourself. Hmm, Elyse Archer 51:42 yeah. Well, and it's the whole Have you read the diamond cutter? Unknown Speaker 51:46 No, I have not, oh, this Unknown Speaker 51:48 will be a good one. I Unknown Speaker 51:49 think you'll be into this. Elyse Archer 51:50 So the principle behind it is whatever you want for yourself, help someone else get it. So I've got my, my mastermind partner. She's also going for seven figures in her business right now. So one of the things that I've done and I told her I was like, This is not entirely altruistic that I want to help you do this. Like, I'm really curious energetically how this works for me. Brandon Handley 52:11 It's interesting, though, at least, right? Like, when I started fatherhood, for the rest of us, it wasn't for the pure reasons. Right? It really wasn't and I can look back and I can say that right? I'm like, you know, I did this for all the wrong reasons. But I was doing the right things, even if it was for the right reasons, for all reasons. Yeah. And that kind of tilted the whatever right into into always say like, I'm like the Grinch my heart grew to sizes too large or whatever, right? Like it went from being like, you know, this thing to write. So I think that you and I think you know, are you know, when you collect new Java Roman back in the day, I remember him going into, you know, talking about that, right being like, what happens if you do the right things with like, the wrong reasons. Now, I would say and wrong reasons is really kind of hard. You can't really say it's for the wrong reasons. You're really trying to do it for the benefit. Yes, of you. And of them, but like, you know, that kind of shakes off. Just Just for I mean, my experience has been that kind of shakes off like initially, it's kind of like, I'm doing it mostly for me a little bit. You still feel okay, I'm doing it for like, you know, at least I'm not, you know, at least I'm not calling you an asshole, right? Like, you know, merger. Nobody's a jerk. I'm doing all these things. And eventually, that it's just kind of like rust away until like, this purity situation happens where like, that's just becomes who you are. Right? So there's really nothing wrong with like, trying on different clothes until you find the pair that fits. Elyse Archer 53:38 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's you always know because it's the energy or doing something and like, how do you feel while you're doing it? If you feel secretly like, with this, this friend of mine, who I'm helping, I'm just kinda like consulting and helping her for helping her hit seven figures in her business this year. It's like, the energy that I feel around it when I do it. If I felt jealousy or if I felt scarcity or like, I should be spending the time on my own stuff. exactly what you're talking about, right, like doing it for the wrong reasons. But I think it's it's, you can tell when you feel like whole excited, fulfilled, relaxed while you're doing it. It's really different. Unknown Speaker 54:13 You are at ease. Yes, Brandon Handley 54:15 you're at ease and the things are easy. They're simple. They're fulfilling. Yeah, right. All right. Super awesome. As always to catch up with you. Unfortunately, we can't stay on all day. So where can we send people to go find more Elise Archer, Elyse Archer 54:33 thank you so much for having me. Elise. archer.com has all the things and then on all social media. I'm at Elise Archer. So with love, love, love to connect. I've got a podcast, she sells radio so people can check that out. It's like sales with a healthy dose of spirituality. Brandon Handley 54:49 Now, who would you say your ideal client is Elise? Unknown Speaker 54:53 Hmm. Elyse Archer 54:55 It's often a younger me. And I'm not saying that in an egotistical way. It's just I can really help them. A woman because I know Unknown Speaker 55:00 what's going on. Elyse Archer 55:02 So it's typically going to be a woman who is either a business owner or she's in sales, she's looking to break through her first six figures. And it's like, something's not quite clicked there. But she's ready. And she's probably a little bit turned off by a lot of what she's being taught from either corporate sales training or from the book she's reading and it just doesn't quite feel right to her and she's like, could I reach my goals in a way that actually feels really good to me and other people and I love helping that type of woman so that's my ideal client. Brandon Handley 55:32 awesome guys. Go check out Lisa's especially, you know, if you meet that description, I can promise you that, uh, you know, it'll work out for you. Right? guarantee that, you know, to go through some of the coaching or some of the programs that Elise has offered, they will be valuable to you. Unknown Speaker 55:48 Thank you, my friend. Thank you. This has been wonderful. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The new big-budget disaster movie Greenland comes out on streaming this week. It starts Gerard Butler as the central character, trying to save his family including his son who lives with type 1. Award winning screenwriter Chris Sparling had never put diabetes into one of his movies, but he knows all about T1D. His wife is Kerri Sparling, writer of the very popular, and now archived, blog SixUntilMe. Stacey & Chris talk about writing something personal into a movie and then handing over control to a different director and producer, as well as what it's like to try to make movies during COVID restrictions. Check out Stacey's book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Kerri Sparling interviews Chris for Children with Diabetes  In innovations –JDRF begins at-home early T1D detection. More on the new JDRF T1Detect program  This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription (rough transcript, computer only - check back for proofed version) Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop, created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by Gvoke HypoPen, the first premixed auto injector for very low blood sugar, and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Announcer  0:21 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  0:27 This week, there's a new movie all about a big global disaster and it features a main character with type one. award winning screenwriter Chris Sparling had never put diabetes into one of his movies. And he was a bit concerned about how it would all turn out.   Chris Sparling  0:41 I became so in a way overprotective of getting it right. And it being portrayed right because the last thing I wanted to do was to finally incorporate diabetes into a movie of mine and for it to end up being portrayed wrong.   Stacey Simms  0:55 Many of you already know Chris, sort of his wife Kerri Sparling wrote the very popular blog six until me for almost 15 years. We talk about diabetes in the movie and at home and about the entertainment business during this time of COVID in innovations JDRF begins at home early T1D detection. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. I am so glad to have you here. I am your host Stacey Simms and we aim to educate and inspire about diabetes by sharing stories of connection. Something different This week, we're going to talk about Greenland. This is a movie it's releasing in the US on video on demand it stars Gerard Butler and Marina Bakkerin who you probably know from the Deadpool movies. I put the trailer in the Facebook group and Diabetes Connections of the group. But the basic plot is that these are estranged parents, maybe they'll get back together, but they are working on their marriage just as a world ending cosmic disaster happens. And wouldn't you know it, their son has type one diabetes, so diabetes, type one insulin, this all becomes a plot point. Now we've talked about this a lot before so many films and TV shows have gotten diabetes exactly wrong. But Greenland has a big advantage. And that is as you heard in that opening tease, and that screenwriter Chris Sparling, whose wife lives with type one, we will get to Chris in just a moment. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by one drop and getting diabetes supplies is a pain. Not only the ordering and the picking up but the arguing with insurance about over what they say you need and what you really need. Make it easy with one drop. They offer personalized test strip plans plus you get a Bluetooth a glucose meter test strips lancets and your very own certified diabetes coach. Subscribe today to get test strips for less than $20 a month delivered right to your door no prescription or co pays required. One less thing to worry about not that surprising when you learn that the founder of one drop lips with type one, they get it one drop gorgeous gear supplies delivered to your door 24 seven access to your certified diabetes coach, learn more, go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the one drop logo. My guest this week is an award-winning screenwriter. He is someone that I've never met, but I feel like I kind of know because for many years I and many of you read about him in Kerry Sparling’s blog SixUntilMe. Kerri spent more than 14 years writing about her life with type 1 diabetes which included meeting and marrying Chris, who has been featured in blog posts about kids and family and everything you would expect. Kerri has stepped back from the blog to pursue other projects in her own writing. And Chris has a big movie coming out this week as this episode airs, Greenland, which debuts on American streaming this week. Chris, thank you so much for joining me. Welcome to the show.   Chris Sparling  3:53 Thank you. Thank you for having me.   Stacey Simms  3:55 It's great to have you. I feel it. As I said, I feel like I kind of know you. So I appreciate you kind of taking the leap and coming on not a movie or writing podcast, but a diabetes podcast. So this should be really fun. What made you decide I mean, you've been writing movies for an awfully long time. What made you decide to put diabetes?   Chris Sparling  4:14 You know, it's something I've been wanting to do for a while this movie presented a pretty unique opportunity for me to do it for a couple of reasons. One, the movie is the first of what's called Greenland. And it's about an incoming asteroid that's going to hit Earth or comet, it's going to hit Earth. It's this existential threat that everyone on earth faces. So kind of by nature of that alone, there's a ticking clock built into the movie, right? It's just when this thing's going to hit you're trying to get to the bunkers in Greenland. I tried to get there safely and survive. And so on the macro level there is that that large ticking clock at play, but the movie itself is different than say, deep impact or Armageddon in that it operates more on a personal level than those two movies do. You know it's not a movie checking in with what the government's doing to try to up the asteroid or anything like that, it's really more like the movie, the impossible if anyone listening ever saw that it's a great movie. And it's all to do with seeing it through this one particular family's lens, how they're going to survive this, this Cataclysm. So built into that I wanted to have a more personal, it's a more personal story. And I'd like the idea of having a more personal ticking clock as well. And so the son in the movie has type one. And now that's not to say the only reason why I gave him type one is to say, oh, that'd be a cool narrative device is to add yet another ticking clock. But it also quite honestly, it just, as I said, at the beginning of this long winded answer is that it gave me You know, I've been wanting to do it for a while, you know, Kerri and I have been together for a very long time. So I've seen type one up close and personal for a very long time. And, you know, I think it's kind of, it's somewhat misunderstood, if not even known condition by a lot of people. So it was, you know, I'm kind of hesitant to use the word educate, because I'm not really trying to do that, but maybe just shine a light on it a little bit. And, you know, this was a, an opportunity to do that on a, I guess, a large screen, or one of your house.   Stacey Simms  6:08 But I'm really curious, as you said, This isn't a movie where you're going to take time to actually do a formal education about type one, just as I wouldn't expect a formal education about a comment hitting the earth, and you know, what would happen, but you do have to explain these things. And I'm curious, you know, how do you work that in, you know, I assume we'll see things like injections or a pump or something like that. But was it difficult to kind of write it into the fabric of the story without, you know, Hey, everybody, we're gonna talk about diabetes.   Chris Sparling  6:34 Now, it was, to a certain extent, because, you know, as you will know, it's diabetes, you know, it's sometimes can fly a bit under the radar. You know, I recently, it was kind of bizarre to do it. But it's fun, I did it, I did an interview with Kerri. And so we were talking like you and I are talking now. And as I told her, then, and I don't always know when she's low, I don't always know when she's high, you know, things are beeping and everything else. And sometimes she takes on a certain characteristics, when that's going on. And I do know, or if I see you're sweeping a bunch of juice or whatever, but like, but sometimes I just don't know. And so to kind of to represent that on screen is difficult, because if you try to go too far in one direction, or the other, it may start to feel very false and forced, and almost cartoonish. And I say 100%, didn't want to do that. But if you go too subtle with it, which diabetes can sometimes be a rather subtle condition, you know, at times, and, you know, if you do that, then it just, it doesn't register for the audience at all. So to kind of dramatize that, what I did was I had the boy, the young boy in the in the movie, let's take one, I gave him a pump. And, you know, to kind of develop a shorthand with the audience, right out of the gate, there's a scene early on in the movie, where Gerard Butler who started in the movie, he's seeing that basically, he's been away, he, his wife had marital problems, and he's kind of they're trying to work it out, he and his wife now and he's coming back, he hasn't seen his son in a little while. And you see, there's a nice tender scene between him and his son, where he notices the pump, the insulin pump, and he says, you know, you know, basically, there's something to the effect of I do like that better than the shots. And you know, just kind of getting it across to the audience, someone who may not be as familiar with it as you are. Or I might be what's like, oh, okay, I get, you know, I can understand that you're certain things, I have a certain amount of knowledge about diabetes. So yeah, it's not, it's small things like that along the way, I've no doubt there will still be things that some people watching, it won't fully kind of hook on to, and they won't fully get. But at the same time, I think there might be elements of it that people watching might be like, Oh, I had no idea. I had no idea that having diabetes would require something like that. Or even to say, the immediacy and the importance of insulin, it kind of where I spoke earlier about this massive macro level existential threat that they're facing. But they still have to get to these bunkers in Greenland, if they're going to survive. And there becomes a situation where this boy get he needs his insulin, because he gets separated from it. And it's like, well, yeah, the large scale goal here remains, but if we don't get you there safely, and again, I mean, just maybe telling maybe to a certain degree, informing the audience who might not know that insulin is not just something like, again, you take it whenever you don't know, I don't know what some people might think, like, you just take it once in a while you take it as you feel like it or I don't know, whatever the misconception might be,   Stacey Simms  9:09 that we eat a cupcake, you need your insulin, right? (laughs)   Chris Sparling  9:12 Yeah, yeah. I think if nothing else, maybe it'll open, not open people's eyes. That's actually wrong, especially maybe just kind of illuminate the topic a bit for some people.   Stacey Simms  9:19 You know, again, I said at the beginning, I'll probably say a few times. I know very little about the industry, the movie industry and and what it takes to write a movie and produce and get, but I would imagine that and you've done projects before, where you've been involved in every step, right, you've written and then you've produced it, or you've been more involved. But with this, you you wrote it as my understanding, and what happens after you kind of hand off your baby because the director can change things, right. The actors have to change things. I guess I'll ask it both ways. First about the diabetes. Did they get it right the way you had hoped? And then we can talk about the movie?   Chris Sparling  9:53 Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, I mean, first, even before diabetes, yes, that always happens. I mean, I've directed movies, I produce movies, all of which have been ones that I've written. So, you know, in those instances, I have obviously quite a bit of control over what the final movies gonna look like in this instance, having just written it. In other movies I've only written, you know, there's always an understanding that when you hand it off, essentially, you know, your depends on the project, quite honestly. I mean, sometimes just as the screenwriter, I am still very much involved with the production because the director or the producer probably see the value of having the person conceived it but but with this, I was involved but not see, like, on a day to day level, that's for sure. Look for the diabetes of it all. You know, I was happy with it. And I was, there were a couple days when I was on set. And, you know, there was I just happened to be there. One of the days they're shooting a scene in in the grocery store and use the sons, they're shopping with his dad, and he's like, Hey, can I get some juice in the dad's like, yeah, sure, go get some. And I remember talking to the directors like Rick, listen, he's like, I was like, you know, my wife generally doesn't drink juice for fun. I'm not I mean, again, I know. She perfectly well, I should be no problem. She could if she wanted to just you know, but I was just I became so in a way over protective of getting it right. And it being portrayed, right, because the last thing I wanted to do was to finally incorporate diabetes into a move your mind and for it to end up being portrayed wrong. But in talking with Rick, he was like, No, no, it's cool. You know, I guess he was, meanwhile, he had his friend on speed dial who was the parent of a child of type one. He's like, No, no, I talked to them. I've consulted with them over and over again. And they said they get no, they let their child have juice if they want it and everything else I was like, and like, on an intellectual level, it made perfect sense to me. But I was I mean, I was kind of like waiting that we hold on a second rate bumps, you know, so to fully answer the question, I think the director, the producer was I think they did a really good job. I think people watching the movie and will it be 100%? Right? I don't know. I mean, people might see it and say, Hey, I don't know if I agree with that. Or not. But everyone's situation in their approach is different. But I could say if you kind of widen the aperture a bit and take a look at it, I think people are gonna I think it does it handles it accurately. For the most part.   Stacey Simms  12:02 I would have been like Gatorade zero, and then he can get a juice box for later.   Chris Sparling  12:08 Yeah, I mean, that's I'm saying like, everyone's situation is different. Right?   Stacey Simms  12:11 So let's talk about movies for a little bit. Was this your dream job? Was this something you always wanted to do?   Right back to Chris in just a moment. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom. And you know, I've talked about this before, but it's still striking to me when Benny was a little, you know, you give your kid a bath almost every single day or he goes swimming all summer long. And I always noticed his fingertips, you know, they were poked so much, that they were full of these little holes up and they just looked really awful. Especially when they got wet. It was almost 16 I'm not looking at his hands very much anymore. But man, when we go to the endocrinologist and Dr. V looks at his fingertips, they are normal. We've been using the Dexcom for so long. Now it was seven years. And with every new iteration, we have done fewer and fewer finger sticks. The latest generation the Dexcom g six eliminates finger sticks for calibration and diabetes treatment decisions. Just thinking about doing the 10 finger six a day we used to do chasing my toddler around, it makes me so glad that Dexcom has helped us come so far. It's an incredible tool. If your glucose alerts and readings from the G six do not match your symptoms or expectations. Use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. learn more, go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo. Now back to Chris and he's talking about whether this is still his dream job. Does he still love working in the movies?   Chris Sparling  13:38 Yeah, 100% I mean, I started like eons ago, I started as an actor. And I lived in Los Angeles for several years doing that. And while I liked that, and sure, it would have been great to have ultimately done that it just wasn't really it's a really, really tough racket, trying to be doing the struggling actor thing. You know, it's fine when you're really young doing it. But at a certain point, you just feel like, wow, I have like no agency, I've almost no control over my future. You know, it's just really, really tough. So I just kind of felt I needed a little more control over my career. And so yeah, so to be involved in this industry in any capacity was was always my goal.   Stacey Simms  14:16 How does it work these days? I mean, people will say, well, you can write from anywhere. But I've got to imagine that the whole industry, if not moving slower, shut down. I mean, 2020 it's been a mess for everybody. But from a filmmaking standpoint, how did this even get done? When was I guess we'll talk about Greenland, but in general, like, how are things getting made right now?   Chris Sparling  14:36 I mean, yeah, Greenland was all written, shot well before the pandemic, but at the same time post production, it got shut down for a while in post production. So it didn't get completed, completed until in the midst of the pandemic, you know, and then as far as the release of it, yeah, I mean, it's supposed to be in theaters two or three different times, then take a push back and push back. But separate from that, you know, as 2020 is going on. I've actually had two other movies shoot during the pandemic, I just had one that wrapped two days ago in Albuquerque. And so for me personally, it's been a, you know, again, I mentioned earlier, but I can't complain people have like real, you know, things there, especially during 2020 people have had really awful things that they've kind of faced, I'm not certainly gonna, I'm not going to complain about having a movie pushback or not being able to visit set because of COVID. But yeah, I mean, it's been a bit of a bummer. That's, you know, I'm still human, like, it was a bit of a bummer to, to have two movies that, you know, I wrote and produced, and I was basically producing from, you know, one was an Ontario as a movie called Lakewood that I did with Naomi Watts. And then a movie that I just did born in Albuquerque that wrapped two days ago. And it's like, I was watching real feed, like real time feeds from the camera, in my house, in my home office. And my situation of you know, being very protective in particular carry, you know, having type one, and so we are, we're very, very locked down here and the COVID of it all. And so me going to set me being on set just wasn't really an option for me. So   Stacey Simms  15:58 that's interesting, though, I had no idea that you know, things, I guess a few we've seen TV shows, we've seen things being filmed a little bit here and there. But it didn't occur to me that full scale production or partial scale production, because you were in your house looking at things was going on. I don't even know what to ask, are they putting their masks on until they like jump in front of the camera? Is it locked down? Is it just a free for all? Because?   Chris Sparling  16:18 No, no, definitely not? No, it's it is I mean, I really wish, you know, for other industries that are still out there, and people are working, you know, maybe it's just not feasible, but the film industry to its credit, and television industry, they really have some great protocols in place. I mean, it's their zones that I like, I'm not going to get into like all the like, they were really, really strict measures. Because again, I mean, there are a lot of unions involved to this screen actors, guild writers, Guild, Directors Guild Producers Guild, so they're very protective of their membership for, you know, in the first place. And there's regular testing and everything else. And again, that's a luxury not I mean, not a lot of people have that. And then it depends on the size of the production. I mean, if you're talking about a big, let's say, Marvel movie, I mean, you could, in that instance, they're going to probably create a massive bubble, wherever and like they rent out an entire hotel, or like they do a Mission Impossible, where they literally rented out an entire cruise ship. And just everyone lived on the cruise ship off the coast of Norway while they were shooting there. So like, I mean, that that wasn't   Unknown Speaker  17:16 like that. But that makes sense. If you can afford Yeah, but   Chris Sparling  17:18 if you can afford it, yeah, I mean, it's budget plays a big role. But it's really, really difficult as it should be. Because it's there are people at risk. And yeah, the actors in particular, because, you know, when you're rolling the cameras, you can't have masks on anymore. So you have to be really, really strict and in how you go about your productions.   Stacey Simms  17:36 What do you think is going to happen with entertainment? In the next few years, I was having this conversation with a friend in terms of are we going to see COVID and people in masks and kind of that real life reflection in the next couple of years in sitcoms, where people are trying to reflect back to us what we've been through this year? Or do you think we just need a couple of years away from it? Before we can start seeing?   Chris Sparling  17:57 It's interesting, I've had that exact conversation with a lot of people, where is it going to be in stories? Is it going to be that you pretend COVID just never happened? Or do you incorporate it, even if it's not just like a major part of your story, it's just an element of life that everyone is familiar with it. So it's not if you just mentioned all they get someone gets sick during COVID, a couple years ago, you just off handed say it and there's no explanation because everyone in the world is going to know what that is. So it's either, you know, in I'm of the mind where, when we're out of this, I want to be out like I don't I don't want to look back on this and try to make it I certainly don't want to make it part of other people or right now. It's you see people trying to make pandemic movies and everything else. And I'm like, I want no part of that. I want no part of that at all. And that's fine. I'm not judging them for maybe wanting to I'm just saying for myself. Yeah, I'm hopefully looking to the future here and want to get past this and move on.   Stacey Simms  18:51 I'm with you. I think we'll know for sure if like a rom com next Christmas makes money and they're able to do like a meet cute with COVID. emasculate that takes off, then we'll know but I don't think it's going to.   Chris Sparling  19:03 Yeah, and I know like I my wife watches this is awesome. You know, I I saw a couple times where they're wearing masks on the show sort of there now, and that's fine. I mean, I'm not judging it. I'm just saying for myself,   Stacey Simms  19:15 I would but I'm with you. I want to be entertained right now. I'm not maybe as we get past it, we can reflect for but I could be meant, you know, it'll be interesting to see because there are different opinions about it for sure. Looking back to Greenland, I wanted to ask you, why did you give diabetes to the kid in the movie, and not the wife character? Was there? Was there a thought process there?   Chris Sparling  19:38 It's tough to say I mean, don't really recall. I mean, probably wrote this movie by now maybe four years ago, years ago. I don't know. If I decided at this moment. I'm going to make a movie and give a character in a family that type of diabetes would I make? I don't know. I mean, maybe, maybe again, just kind of speaking to this. Again, I'm hesitancy an opportunity to make some seemed like I was on a crusade and it wasn't I'm not on it at all. But like, I think there are a lot of people I'm gonna be frank, I don't think a lot of people know that kids can get diabetes. I just don't think that they, I think a lot of people, I think when they just hear the term diabetes, I think they mean type, they just assume it means type two, they don't even think that there is a type one or type two, they just think there was diabetes, and to maybe see a child, the 78 year old child with diabetes, maybe that kind of will at least, I don't know, in a waste stop some, someone long enough to say, Well, wait a minute, I never knew that. Little kids can have diabetes. For example,   Stacey Simms  20:35 I mentioned in the intro this interview that, you know, I kind of knew of you knew you a little bit from Kerry's blog, my son said he was 14 years ago. So she'd been writing the blog for a while when he was diagnosed and was one of the first things I found and like many people, because very, very popular blog, you know, I read everything she wrote, I feel like I knew so much about Kerri. And it was a huge help to me, even though I have a son. And it was something my spouse who has type one, what was that like for you? Was that like a different world kind of like, okay, Kerry's writing her blog, but you were mentioned it we knew about your family we do about things that are going on? I'm curious what your perspective on six and told me is,   Chris Sparling  21:11 I mean, I've always tried to be as supportive as I could with everything that she's doing in the community and elsewhere and on the blog. Yeah, that was no different. I think it speaks more to just how the internet itself has changed. Overall, we're, I mean, she started blogging when people didn't even, like, I want to say she was one of maybe two or three bloggers who were blogging about diabetes at the time. And this was, you know, that's at a time when the internet, like blogs were pretty new, and people weren't generally sharing, they weren't comfortable sharing personal information online, so much. And nowadays, that's all the internet is. And so like, so it's kind of a different space. And it was, it was a much more. You know, it wasn't it wasn't the juggernaut it is now I don't mean her blog, I mean, just like any kind of blog, or social media account, or anything else like that. So her writing personal details about, say, our relationship, and then our, you know, our marriage, and then our then our daughter at first, it just seemed we were okay with it for a while. And then just again, speaking for us, this is no comment on anyone else who might be doing this now, currently, but it's just for us, we just kind of decided that, you know, just wanted to be a little more closed off with the personal stuff in that way. So that's why if you go back, I'm sure in her blog, maybe when you started. I mean, there was a I remember a lot of stuff we she would talk about the stuff she and I were doing is kind of like a young couple going into New York City and hanging out. And, you know, so because it was kind of it was just kind of fun, and had almost like, you know, almost had like an early Facebook field where you just felt like, Hey, I'm writing this to my friends and family. Right? You know, as opposed to, you know, you write this stuff, and then all of a sudden, it's just, it's fodder for anyone to comment on or anything, I don't know. And it just became, I don't know, if it's a conscious decision or not, it just became more of like a Yeah, just to kind of pull back a little bit in that way on her on her blog and stuff.   Stacey Simms  22:57 Yeah, for me, it was almost like a teachable thing in terms of not just diabetes and learning about what an adult perspective was, but really did help me a lot gain perspective. And even when my son was two, it was also a really good kind of template almost in terms of sharing, because it did educate a lot of us along the way. Because that was before Facebook and social media. Really, I know, you're probably not gonna think about Facebook in college, and that was it. But I mean, for you know, in 2006 when I think she started as a five there was no social media really so right. It was a really good lesson in protecting your privacy, especially as it went on. But you know, it's it's a different world. People can't share enough some people. So isn't Greenland has been released, I believe in Europe and some other parts of the world because that's, I've seen it in some of the parenting Facebook groups. People have been chit chatting over it. Yeah. I asked if anybody had any questions for you. And most people just said, I loved it. But it scared me or like, Oh, my gosh, I didn't want to think about those kinds of things. But I did get a great comment from Sarah, who said, Stacy, can you tell Chris how much my nine year old son and I appreciate it? how accurate it was? Yeah, she has a question for you. She wants to know how difficult it was for you emotionally, to write something like this with so much personal experience from this disease that you've said it's been about four years, or maybe more since you actually wrote the script. But seeing as this really is something scary in terms of end of the world, and like a lot of parents I have like, Oh my gosh, if he's stranded or you know, it's even just like, it could be forgetting his diabetes back at the movies. It doesn't have to be a comet hitting the earth or plane crashes. Terrible. Yeah, we're all scared. Did you get emotional kind of writing this and thinking about carry? Yeah,   Chris Sparling  24:38 I mean, it's emotional. Now even watching again. For that reason. I think it's it. There's another and this is kind of what I was driving at with incorporating diabetes, where again, I didn't want it to seem like just some plot device. Like you said, it doesn't have to be a comet hitting the earth. It doesn't have to be a pandemic that we're all dealing with. But those things there's no Another whole layer for people living with diabetes or any chronic condition for that matter, any medical condition for that matter, it's it there is an another ongoing in a way unrelenting element to your life into the life of the people who care about you. You know, and that's, I think what I wanted to really portray is that it's like, again, even though these people are selected, and that's, you know, not giving away much they are among the very, very few people selected to go to these bunkers in Greenland. You know, someone made the joke recently, it's like, you know, Gerard Butler has saved the president so many times, it's only it's only fair that he's selected. But anyway, so they were and it's like, okay, that's, that's great. But like, that doesn't nothing changes it for at least as of current standards of medicine, nothing changes, the fact that this kid still needs his insulin, and it was emotional in that way. Because we've been there, you know, we've been in those instances, and I'm sure so many people listening have where sometimes stuff can get scary. You know, I talked about the subtlety of it before. And sometimes things can go from subtle or zero to 60 pretty fast. And that by itself, those moments are emotional when they're happening. And so to kind of to try to incorporate them into even something fake. I mean, you try your best to just make it feel real and realistic and kind of pour yourself into it as much as you can. So yeah, it's, it was a you know, so yes, sir.   Stacey Simms  26:19 I promise I will not get too nosy. And ask you lots of personal questions about Kerri. But I am curious, I don't talk to a lot of partners, spouses of partners and spouses of people with type 1 diabetes. And that's a different experience than being a parent or being a person with type one. I'm not gonna ask you to make a grand statement, you know, what have you learned? or What advice do you have? But I am curious, when you met Kerri. And this is a long time ago, as you said, I'm, I don't know if you can remember. What did you think about diabetes at the time? Were you really worried about dating and then getting very serious with someone who had something like this? Do you remember?   Chris Sparling  26:55 Yeah, I do. I had a very limited, very limited exposure to type one, only because a good buddy of mine, he had been for a little while dating a girl with type one, prior to me meeting Kerri. And the standout thing was that she was low one time, and she threw a pumpkin at him. So like, that was my introduction to type 1 diabetes, that sometimes when you're low, like you can kind of like your behavior can be you know, not like, I don't know, something you come out of here, we'd like you to depending and, and she just happened to get like, very aggressive for some reason that that is, and I was like, Wow, so that was a completely rough and probably ill informed introduction to diabetes. And then I met Kerri. And, you know, thankfully, she never threw a pumpkin at me. But But yeah, I mean, it's so I learned it a lot from just being with her and being around her and see how she manages the disease. But I mean, this, the thing is that I met her God, I mean, she must have had it for about 18 years, 15 years, some anywhere from 15 to 1819, whatever it was, before I met her, so she was very accustomed, you know, to dealing with this as an adult, because naturally got as a child, and then I should say, naturally, she got it as a child. So naturally, her mom and her dad, were helping her as a child, but then she, I met her as an adult. So she has several years of managing this disease on her own. And so it was kind of like I had to, you know, again, this is just specific to my relationship with Gary, I'm not trying to map this onto how other people do their thing. But like, I learned the boundaries in a way of like, what is the best way for me to be helpful in these situations. And even something simple, like I learned very early into this day, know that if carry is low, you have an instinct, when someone's not feeling well, for any reason. You're like, Oh, just sit down, sit out, you know, if you're feeling if you're feeling dizzy, whatever, she's the opposite. And then this is just her. She's the opposite. She doesn't want to she doesn't want to sit down. Because sitting down in a way, mentally allows it to settle in more for her. She, you know, she can't fully explain what she's saying. She's, like, I can't resist it, if I'm accepting it. And that, you know, again, it's not some woowoo thing. It just for her. That's it. So, like little things like that. Over the years, I've kind of and then bigger things over the years that I've come to say, all right, well, this is my role in this, I guess.   Stacey Simms  29:07 Getting back to screenwriting for just a moment. You know, there's a lot of I think a lot of people think that any job in the movies is super glamorous. And it's not as difficult as it is screenwriting has to be so difficult to me to think about. Because you're you're pretty much by yourself writing. But I'm curious. Do you have any advice? I mean, for anybody listening who would love to do what you were doing?   Chris Sparling  29:29 Yeah. Um, read screenplays. It's the best education you could possibly get. I mean, there are entire screenwriting programs. You could go spend a couple $100,000 on right now. And I'm not taking away the value of that but at the same time, I would put it right up there with just reading the screenplay a week.   Stacey Simms  29:46 How do you get a screenplay? Pardon my ignorance?   Chris Sparling  29:48 No, it's fine. I mean, just go online. Just Just go to Google and type movie screenplays and I'm sure like the vast majority of movies you've seen in like are you can read screenplays for   Stacey Simms  29:58 Is it still fun for you?   Chris Sparling  30:01 Yes, I this, I've been doing this for, like professionally for over 10 years now it's been my, my job. You know, just like anything else, things start to get a little old. I think for the next 10 years, I think I look forward more to writing and directing more as opposed to just writing. You know, I've directed a couple movies so far, but I want to do more of that I think in the next 10 years will say, yeah, I mean, I still love it. I love what I do. I feel very fortunate that I, you know, I tried for a very long time to break into this industry. And so like, I never lose sight of that. Yeah, I mean, there's certainly days that you just, it's just not happening. You're just trying and you're like, wow, I'm really awful at this. And so no, and, and other days, you're kind of like, Yeah, maybe. I think it's interesting, during, in the COVID of it all, like I've been, I remember, especially, you know, early early on in it, where everyone was on lockdown, and everyone's like, Oh, you must be getting so much done, you must be in so much writing done having all this time. And I was like, I can nothing done. I'm like, I can't get my head in the game at all. And that went on for a while, like creatively, I just couldn't get there. I guess, understandably, given the circumstance. But over time I was. It's gotten easier. I think more than anything. Now. It's just a time thing i'm sure Kerri would agree with this is that because of how we're doing things with, you know, with with us and our kids being you know, home from school, and that's just how we're doing it. It's just, there's a lot of us being here and having to having to kind of shuffle responsibilities back and forth. And so, you know, the amount of time I actually have, and that she has to take it worked on is that's pretty valuable commodity these days.   Stacey Simms  31:36 Yeah, no doubt. So before I let you go, is there anything that you can share with us that you're working on now, in terms of writing or things that haven't started yet?   Unknown Speaker  31:45 Yeah.   Chris Sparling  31:49 You can tell I, you know, I have a long gestating project. Basically, it's an adaptation of Stephen King's the talisman. I don't know if that one's ever going to happen, quite honestly. It's just I mean, it's something that it's it's Steven, not the name drop, but it's a Steven Spielberg project that he has been trying to do for like 35 years, there have been like, I don't know how many iterations of it that just just kind of come together, then he changes his mind or it doesn't happen. And then he moves on and then tries again, and like 510 years later, so who knows if that this one will follow that same trajectory. But that's one that I've been working on for a while, and then and a couple other projects. And then I'm just I just started a new script of my own. So in other words, not like a writing a script or adapting a script for somebody else. Right. You know, it's one that I'm hoping is going to be my next directing project. So,   Stacey Simms  32:34 so yeah. Okay, so we will look for greenlit, I will put all the information in the show notes where people can find it. Anything that we should look for that might be like a diabetes community, in thing I mean, now I have to look for the juice in the grocery store.   Chris Sparling  32:47 Yeah, there's that scene. I mean, there's the pump scene. You know, there's the scene where, um, there's a lot of them. It's not like it doesn't it's not like some small facet of the movie. I mean, it's so   Stacey Simms  32:56 cool. The mom isn't trying to read six until me like the panel there's no like   Chris Sparling  33:01 easter egg thrown in. Right? Um, you know, it's interesting though, because the the LED with this there's Kari asked me this question when choosing interpretive me which again, which is kind of bizarre. She was like, Why? Why does she's even curious. In the movie, the boys wearing an old like Medtronic pump in? She's like, why that old pump? Why not like a more modern pump even more modern Medtronic, but I don't know, I mean, quite honestly, I mean, it's probably the props department that chose that one. And the director approved it. And then they're also clearance issues where you can't just use a product, right? You'd have to get approval from the company. And so I could find out, I'm sure, but still, what I do wonder, and I might have done the same thing had I directed movie is that old model is older model PUMPS LOOK more medical, they look like medical devices where a lot of the more you know, more modern pumps will say they look sleek, they look like cell phones, they look like you know, and so I think for an audience, if the if part of the effort here is to kind of maybe shine a light on this on this condition, this disease, you certainly don't want them to be confused, where they see something like well, what is that? I don't know, it's a phone or what is that? That and, and I think, you know, that's, I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's a fun fact, I don't know how you classify.   Stacey Simms  34:15 Now, that's exactly what I meant that sorry. When because when we look at the screen now we're all gonna be thinking like, wait a minute, because I know my audience, they're gonna pause it, they're gonna look at it, they're gonna zoom in if they can, and you know what pump is that? And that's, that's a really good reason why?   Chris Sparling  34:30 I don't think it's a fun fact, because I don't know if that's the right way. Right? It's like a fun speculation. There you go.   Stacey Simms  34:37 You know, we're bonkers that way we'd like to know. So we'll see what happens. Chris, thank you so much for joining me and you know, for for speculating and for sharing so much of your time. I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you.   Unknown Speaker  34:54 You're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms.   Stacey Simms  35:00 For more information about the movie, the trailer where you can watch it, all of that at the episode homepage at Diabetes connections.com, wherever you are listening, if you're listening on a podcast app, you can always come back to the homepage and find out all of the info. Not every app has a great way to see the show notes. You know, we're on Pandora and Spotify and apple and everyone's just slightly different. So I like to keep it at home base. We also have transcriptions for every episode this year. And we're starting to go back and add them for every episode. So I'm very excited about that. I will also link up the carry and Chris interview that he mentioned, because Kerri scooped me she got the interview first. It was really fun. I interviewed my husband before for this show, and it's a little bit of a weird feeling. But it was a lot of fun to watch them and I recommend that especially if you're a big fan like I am of six until me and of Kerri. Up next we're going to talk about this new at home test kit from jdrf. First Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Jeevan hypo pin, almost everyone who takes insulin has experienced a low blood sugar and that can be scary. A very low blood sugar is really scary. And that's where evoko pen comes in. It's the first auto injector to treat very low blood sugar gvl caple pen is pre mixed and ready to go with no visible needle. That means it's easy to use in usability studies. 99% of people were able to give g vo correctly. I'm so glad to have something new, find out more go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the G Volk logo g book shouldn't be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma. Visit chivo glucagon.com slash risk.   In innovations this week, where we talk about the latest and greatest in the technology sectors and new stuff in our community, I want to tell you about jdrf new T one detect this just came out last week as you're listening to this episode, if you're listening to it when it first airs, and T one detect is jdrf snoo screening education and awareness program. So basically, it's screening you for type 1 diabetes auto antibodies, I'm going to read a little bit from the jdrf website. They say until now t Wendy symptoms and a diagnosis often come out of the blue. Today, families can use testing to detect t Wendy early so they can plan and prepare with one blood test anyone at any age can find out before symptoms even occur. If they are at risk for developing to end, the test is easy, simple and can help save lives. So this sounds great. This sounds a lot like trial net, who we've talked to before, my understanding is that it's different. It's not quite the extensive test. And by that I mean, it looks like a different test, it's a finger prick, and you send the blood samples back to the lab. And then you get your results back. And they say you get next steps as to what they mean and what to do. So I'm hoping that that also means counseling of I haven't seen anything about that yet. Because, you know, that's the only that's one thing about doing these tests, any health tests by mail, right, you want to get the results. And then you want to have somebody sitting next to you telling you what you do with those results. So you're not feeling alone. You know what, if you have these antibodies, you don't know what they mean, you know what I mean? When you click through the website, it actually takes you to enable bio sciences, T one D auto antibody testing, and that's from whom you actually order the kit, you make an account with the company, you can check through your options on privacy, you can decide if you want to make your results available to jdrf. You can say Do I want bio sciences to have my personal health information, there's a lot you can do here. The tests are not free is my understanding. But I didn't see anything about cost anywhere on the website. However, I didn't get far enough through it to actually order the tests. And what's interesting here is that T one detect will be available to people whether or not they have a family member who has type one diabetes, and that's different from most of the other screenings, including trial net. So a lot of questions here. I have reached out to jdrf they have said that they're you know more than willing to come on. So now it's just a question of scheduling. So I'll be putting in the Facebook group Diabetes Connections of the group when we are ready to go with that, and I will certainly solicit your questions and we will get them answered. My biggest question is, why make this separate? jdrf I believe already helps fund trialnet. So why now fund something different when trauma needs money? So I'm going to find out I'm sure we'll learn much more. I am definitely in favor of more research and more testing because boy, if we could test everybody for type one, we could learn so much more about possible prevention and treatment and all that good stuff. So don't misunderstand my questions here for doubter cynicism. I'm just really curious about this new program and of course, we will find out more programming note for the rest of the year. I'll be honest, I'm not really sure we have about two weeks left to go for 2020 and I do have the shows planned out. We're going to do wait wait, don't poke me the Game Show that I aired at friends for life. If you didn't go to that winter conference, you'll be able to hear the show and you'll actually be able to watch it, I'll put it on YouTube the same time the podcast goes live. That's always a lot of fun. And then I have another panel that we taped earlier this year about the type one and type two community with some familiar faces to many of you. And that will be the last episode of 2020. However, as I've said before, there's always some interesting stuff at the end of the year. And if we're able to jump in with some more breaking news, or something really interesting, comes up, you know, it's not like I'm traveling This year, we're all sitting around on zoom. So we will bring you you know, any breaking news that happens in our community, and I basically just reserve the right to throw a new show in here or there. But we are almost done. Holy cow this year, and not much for reflection. I'm not quite sure that I'll do a lot on 2020 I think I need to get a little further away from it and further toward Good Stuff and Being with you all the view more in person before I can really properly reflect but I gotta tell you, I am glad to see 2021 on the horizon. thank you as always to my editor jump you can. It's from audio editing solutions. And thank you so much for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here next week. Until then, be kind to yourself.   Benny  41:18 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms Media. All rights reserved. All rounds avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Teanna is like the sister I never had, a ton of fun and spot on with her gangster like approach to manifestation... This podcast is for the person who wants to learn how to manifest but is sick of all the crackadoos out there who are super soft spoken and scared to admit that they don't know how it all works. Teanna Campbell drops some real dope bombs to this podcast and I am thrilled that she was able to find some time and hop on as we also got to chat about a few of my favorite authors Neville Goddard & Florence Schoville Schinn. If you are looking for a manifestation coach that knows their shit, reach out to Teanna, she is legit! Places you can connect with Teanna: Youtube Channel Books discussed: Transcribed by https://otter.ai Brandon Handley 0:00 4321 Hey there spiritual dope. This is Brandon Handley, as if you didn't already know my name. I am on today with Teanna Campbell. She is a manifestation mindset, money and magic coach, she has one goal, and it's her favorite. She wants to give you the tools and support you need to release your mind magic, reject your bullshit. And ignite your healing so that you can live life unfucked and stuff your bank account with cash and fill your life with everything you've ever wanted. I'm so happy to have you on today, what's happening? Teanna Campbell 0:39 That was even better than I could have done. Good job. I'm just out here with you. I'm excited. Brandon Handley 0:45 What about you, I'm excited as well, we've been kind of going back and forth, we stumbled upon each other on Instagram. And, you know, I'm a fan. And so I was like, hey, without let's let's have this conversation, you have a great brand. with just your delivery, you're entertaining, you are clear with your, with your delivery. And, um, you don't fit the same mold as everybody else to which is great. But as everybody else is kind of doing it like this kind of this, there's, there's like a certain way all this has to be done right? And like, you're not doing it that way. Like I'm like, Thank God and this is it's refreshing. So happy to have you on super excited. And one of the things I usually like to start us off with is, you know, creative energy source energy speaks through us, right? And it's kind of like we were talking about before we even got started, like the people that are looking for you just kind of show up. Right? Well, right, that says that you're, you know, that people are going to hear us talk about today is going to be for them explicitly. And it's going to come through you right now. So sources saying what to you to that one person listening right now? Teanna Campbell 2:08 Oh, God, be you I think being authentic is really preached a lot in this industry without being celebrated or necessarily tolerated. Like you said, I don't really fit the mold. I teach this shit a different way. which some people don't enjoy. But it is authentic to me. So I just think actually follow the advice of staying who you are. And if other people aren't doing it your way, then fuck is the effort allowed on here? Brandon Handley 2:48 I think we started it with that. I mean, it was part of the introduction. So Unknown Speaker 2:51 you know, Brandon Handley 2:52 I said you can live your life on Fox. And so you can follow my lead or do what you want to do. Teanna Campbell 2:57 I mean, I say it all the time I drop it. So I just don't want to but I think that's just really the big thing. Fuck them if they don't accept it, because all of this is meant to be a very personal practice. It's not a one size fits all there is not a secret formula that someone has unlocked. It's very personal to each person, and it should be celebrated that you do it individually. So I think that is something important for everybody to remember. Brandon Handley 3:30 Yeah, so it's like be authentic, let it go. But be truly authentic too. Right? Not just this not this authentic that everybody else thinks you should be Teanna Campbell 3:43 different. everybody's like, be authentic, but do it this way. Brandon Handley 3:46 Right. Right. Here's how you be authentic. And if there's a recipe for it, that's not necessarily authentic. No. Right. So, um, Unknown Speaker 3:57 what do I think that you should have on a shirt? Teanna Campbell 4:02 Now the bitch I was actually just designing it like five minutes ago, honestly. Brandon Handley 4:06 Well, that's because and now also say this because you open up one of your YouTubes with that, right? And you're like, you know, people may know me as or say, I'm a mouthy, bitch. I'm like I'm like I love it. Right and I all I see is that on a shirt for you? Because your graphics are great, right? You do a great job. Who does your graphics? do you do that? You work yourself? Teanna Campbell 4:26 I do it. Yeah, Brandon Handley 4:28 yeah. So I love guys if you're not following, john, I'd like just go check her out. It's fun. You do a good job with the designs and the branding. And so your current brand is a manifestation gangster, is that right? Yes, it is. Let's talk about it. So tell us a little bit about if I'm checking out manifestation gangster What am I getting myself involved with? Teanna Campbell 4:55 Um, wow. A lot of fuck bombs. And a lot of nevel teachings mixed in with the fog bombs. People have a big problem with that for some reason. I don't know why, but they get very offended and say never would have never said that. And I'm like, he's not alive right now, you know? No. Brandon Handley 5:17 No, it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether or not never would have said it. It's how you're teaching it. But would have been funny to hear him talk that way, though. Because what this clip like Anglo Saxon, like, you know, nevel was, I mean, just how would never have told you to get fucked. Teanna Campbell 5:38 Right? It would have been so interesting. And I just, I don't know, when I listened to him. I can actually imagine it. Like, you can hear it sometimes in the tonality of his speeches. He kind of wants to. He wants to tell people, I've told you the same thing for 20 years. It shouldn't be this fucking hard. Brandon Handley 5:56 Right? I think i think i think if i hear him saying it, he's got the one where he's talking about getting the clams or something in New York, right? He's there with his crew. And he goes, and he gets like, he orders it for breakfast. Or he wanted clams for breakfast. Right? And he's like, he could just see it. He sauced like it like, I don't know, 9am or something on a Sunday morning. It's like, he's just tore up drinking martinis, and he's going out with his crew. And it's like, I order the clams. Right? He's just so you know, he's so funny, but you could hear him saying, like, give me the fucking clams. Teanna Campbell 6:34 Right? Right. Like you can hear him he? I am convinced he would approve, but the very strict nashvillians don't enjoy it, avoid it. Alright, Brandon Handley 6:46 for those uninitiated without neville goddard, what's the what's the history on him? Unknown Speaker 6:52 So Teanna Campbell 6:55 honestly, all, I preach a lot of neville goddard. But it's not from a place of knowing an intense amount about him, I was only introduced to nevel. It's been less than a year, because I got so excited that I had figured out this whole key to manifestation and I was teaching it to people about how it's about your feelings and your vibrations that you put out into the universe. And it has nothing to do with your words. It's all the feelings, all the feelings. And somebody came to me one day, and they were talking about neville goddard. And I'm like, Who the fuck is that? And they're like, well, that's what you teach. And I'm like, no, it's no one's not I made the shit up. I discovered this, I'm gonna be famous. And they're like, you need to go check out neville goddard. Right. And I did, and I was heartbroken. Oh, Brandon Handley 7:48 that's the worst, right? You're like, well, I can't believe this has been done before. Teanna Campbell 7:52 That's exactly. So then I ordered every novel book, I could find neville goddard is a manifestation teacher. He's dead. Now. This he was around. What in the 30s 50s? somewhere? I don't know, a long time ago, we were not alive when he was around, right. And he taught it almost like he had books published. But it was more underground. It wasn't like common knowledge that everybody talked about. It wasn't like Napoleon Hill and the secret to getting rich. His was like seminars that he did. And he would just go and tell people about manifestation I take him he wasn't really in it for the money. He was like, here's everything I know. So he has crap everywhere. He will just need to read it. Because I didn't make it up. Brandon Handley 8:45 This time, the this time last year, it was totally me. Um, so I'll throw on the one of the reasons he didn't need to do it for money. It was like it came from a wealthy family. Right. So he had a super wealthy family. And while he was not relying on that, it gave him the confidence to say whatever the fuck you want to say. Because one of the things that is interesting is that if this is all you do, it can be a challenge. Right? Some sometimes you'll you'll may fall out. So lots of good word phrase sell out. Sure. So so an Alan Watts talks about that too. You know, watts fan. Teanna Campbell 9:37 He, I don't know who that is. Brandon Handley 9:40 So real similar with Alan Watts, right. So he's another guy like kind of they're, they're around the same era. Both kind of beat Nicky, you know, weird ways of talking, but similar space. But what he says is like when you do these things, and you have to do it as your only thing there's a certain sense Stress behind it right? A certain like this happen a certain restriction of yourself right? Not being often Sure, right? Like you're you lose some sense of authenticity because you're like, ah, but people won't buy it because it's fucking crazy. Right? But like, you also go back to the idea of like, yeah, 50% of the people hate you, no matter what you do. And 50% of people love you. So so it's like, you know, tell me get back. So you're doing the devil, you're doing the nevel f bomb gig. So, yeah, you got into it, though, kind of on your own. So how did you get into this space? Teanna Campbell 10:42 So I taught manifestation. Before that's been my gig, I became a hypnotist. And then I got really into manifestation and using hypnosis for manifestation. And through my own trial and error and practice and working with clients, I was like, holy shit, this has nothing to do with the words and the affirmations, necessarily. affirmations are helpful, but they're not like the key to everything you've ever wanted. And so just through working through all of that for a couple years, I was like, Oh, my God, it's the feeling. It's the feeling. Right? And I was so proud. But it just started with I taught manifestation. And I was tired of traditional manifestation like, I will reference abraham hicks sometimes because I think there's some good quotes in there. But there are definitely a lot of people who have heard me say, I hate abraham hicks. Teanna Campbell 11:48 I hate the way it's taught. Teanna Campbell 11:52 And so just through getting frustrated with people not seeing results, doing it the abraham hicks way. I took it and figured out what worked and what didn't. And it happens to be the same stuff that neville goddard Teanna Campbell 12:08 teaches about. Okay. Brandon Handley 12:11 Would you so abraham hicks is a all law of attraction? Would you consider Neville Goddard's teaching law of attraction? Or would you consider manifestation? Because I think it sounds like there's a little bit of a discerning, right. Teanna Campbell 12:28 I think neville goddard actually had a really good understanding of all 12 of the spiritual laws, he doesn't make references to each specific one. But if you study the 12 spiritual laws, or the 12 laws of the universe, each one you can pinpoint to different level teachings. So I think he just had a really good understanding of all of it. So there is law of attraction in there, because it's one of the laws, but he goes over all of that, which is probably why I enjoy his work more. I it's not all law of attraction. Brandon Handley 13:12 Okay. No, I mean, it's interesting, right? Because that my, again, my perception is he's different than just your strict like law of attraction people and, you know, right, positive and positive thinking and all this other stuff. He's in a different different sphere, different space. And so I think it's interesting that that's kind of who you you gravitated towards and, and run through. So you did the hypnosis, right? For manifestation, and then, you know, you came across the feeling part, right? So Where, where, where did that epiphany come from for you? Teanna Campbell 13:54 It's so cliche, but I was literally just driving in my car one day, I do all of my best thinking in my car. I am convinced if I ever write a book, it will be thoughts I've had in a car. And it just popped into my head. I don't know if I was talking with a client. I have a really bad habit of doing voice talking with clients over the phone while I'm driving. Um, so I don't know if I was talking with a client or what it was. But I remember sitting at the stoplight waiting for it to turn green. And I was just like, oh my god, it's about vibrations. And right there in this split second of it wasn't a split second, it was like 10 seconds. I had already planned out this entire course about how manifestation is vibrations and how to tune into it. And while I was launching and working with people, somebody told me about nubble It all happened very quickly, but it was just in my car. Brandon Handley 14:52 Yeah, that's great. It's great. I think I think that is is huge right where emotion and feeling right is about big part of it when and it's also tied to the visualization aspect right? And if you tie that right to a your feelings and emotions, right, you don't know, tell me what happens there. Teanna Campbell 15:14 Well, I will I've never actually heard him talk about it, but I am convinced neville goddard evil either was a hypnotist or had a really good understanding of hypnosis. Because everything he talks about the state akin to sleep in the visualization with the feelings, that's hypnosis, when he mentions getting really relaxed so that the images go into your subconscious mind. That is hypnosis. So essentially, in all of his books, when he's telling people how to visualize and how to relax, he's just telling everyone how to self hypnotize. And I think that's a big part of why it is so effective because hypnosis is sending messages straight to your subconscious mind, which is then what you experience in reality. Brandon Handley 16:06 He calls the subconscious does he call it a subconscious? So he calls right Teanna Campbell 16:11 mind more often. But I don't like to say unconscious mind. Just that's it. That just feels wrong to me since I was trained as a hypnotist first, okay, so I call it the subconscious. But he does have a few books where he also just straight out refers to it as the subconscious mind, the subconscious mind. Brandon Handley 16:32 So I think that one of your first when we first connected you were calling it the God the God, what was it the God? God manifestation? God state God state, that's what Yeah, which is very novel, too, though, right? Teanna Campbell 16:51 That was, so it's funny talking about authenticity. My brand is quirky and bright colors, and not like other people. And I had a friend who was kind of an Instagram goddess, she has, like 400,000 followers on Instagram, she's built up a ton of accounts to hundreds of thousands of people. And she didn't agree with my branding on either of my businesses. And so I changed it to be Instagram friendly. And she's the one who was like God state because that's what people will search for when they search for nevel stuff. And you need to go plain with black and white, maybe a little bit of gold because people respond to that. So I took everything and made it so boring. And our friendship and I Brandon Handley 17:46 really liked it by the way, I liked your golden black. And I was like I was like it's very well done. So right. So you know, maybe that's okay. Teanna Campbell 17:56 Just wasn't you, Teanna Campbell 18:00 me. Our friendship ended up like not working out it is what it is whatever you know, girls do when they get together. And with time, I was like, well, this is who I really want to be. Right. So I changed it to how it was before her and probably confused the crap out of everybody. But that was authentic. So God's state was actually like the brainchild of someone else that I came up with the name, but it was with the encouragement of other people. Brandon Handley 18:34 I hear you, I hear you. I've done many things with the encouragement of other people that I should. So let's talk about let's talk about your brand now like I mean, you've got manifestation gangster, it's a lot of fun, it is bright, it is vibrant. And you know what type of people you working with. Teanna Campbell 18:56 Um, it's funny because I get kind of I work pretty much just with women, a lot of women business owners and a lot of the single mom kind of women I you attract a lot of what you are so because I've had healing around all of the stuff I've had to work through, the majority of people I work with and attract are actually in the same place I was in years ago. So that's almost exclusively, who I end up working with. Brandon Handley 19:36 Now, it's interesting, and I've definitely found that to I mean, some of my first interviews were with like, you know, people with not necessarily daddy issues, but like, you know, had, you know, weird dad backstories that were almost identical to mine, right? Like my dad died of like everyone overdose, right? And like, maybe like three out of 10 people that I interviewed, they had their dad's Unknown Speaker 20:00 I'd like heroin overdose. Teanna Campbell 20:01 Have a beer dad that story. See? See, look? Brandon Handley 20:07 Maybe this is more common than we thought. What's your what's the weird dad backstory? Unknown Speaker 20:15 Um, Teanna Campbell 20:18 wow. My dad was never involved. And I learned when I was like six or seven that my dad didn't want me and so the dad I had was actually an adoptive dad. Because he married my mom when I was like one. And then he left and then I met my bio dad, it was just like a shit show all through my teen years. The weirdest and now I haven't talked to him in 20 years. Brandon Handley 20:50 That fucking Teanna Campbell 20:54 No, I'm sure that you are great one. So we're not gonna say Brandon Handley 20:58 no, that's totally true. I'm talking about the rest of them. I kid I just um, so what else is fun in this space? I mean, what is your favorite nevel like so here's another part of this podcast, right? This podcast is really about leaning into that authenticity. What did it take for you to start working in this space? Because it's not one that I would say is super socially acceptable and easy to break into? Is that what do you think Teanna Campbell 21:29 neville goddard space Brandon Handley 21:30 neville goddard law of attraction and manifestation coaching you know that you've got 90% of the people that you've run into relate with that's woo woo is, you know, all this other stuff. So what was it like jumping into this space and kind of leading from there? Unknown Speaker 21:47 Um, Teanna Campbell 21:49 I honestly didn't really have problems with it. Before I really jumped into neville goddard. I was mostly exclusively a mindset coach, like, that's why I learned about hypnosis. So I was already talking mindset stuff. I was already talking about the subconscious mind, I was already kind of in that space. And then it just kind of slowly evolved, I think, into what it is now. And because it was slow. The audience that I had built up over the years just followed with me, they evolved with me as well. So for me, it was actually a really easy transition. I didn't have a difficult time with it at all. I don't I'm not part. So there's a lot of the really big like nevel teachers, I've never talked to any of them I haven't like broken into Brandon Handley 22:45 circle Teanna Campbell 22:46 their circle, right. So it's just kind of me doing my own thing, but I like it that way. So I just hang out and do what I want to do. Brandon Handley 22:58 What I'm so if I was to call for coaching with you, what's our What's our first call like? Teanna Campbell 23:06 I just do very open. Caught like a call would kind of just start with the bullshitting. What are you working on bullshitting? It's important stuff, but what are you working on? What are you manifesting? How are you feeling about it? What are you currently doing what, and then we just break it down into what's standing in their way if they're having consistent, focused thoughts on why it's not there, or what is missing or how it's not coming. And then we just let it evolve naturally, I'm a very free flowing person, I don't have a lot of the super structure in my calls, or my coaching packages or my businesses. Nobody is built the same kind of like how we talked about in the very beginning of this, it's a very personal journey to everyone. And one type of ritual, I call them rituals, that's kind of Woo. But one kind of ritual or technique doesn't work for everybody. So I take the time to really get to know people so that it actually does work for them. So the calls there's not really a big structure to it. It's let's get to know you and see where you are. And then we just break through that shit. Brandon Handley 24:25 No, absolutely. Right. So tailor made. Right, right. Teanna Campbell 24:30 100% no call is ever the same. Unknown Speaker 24:36 Could couldn't be if you tried. Brandon Handley 24:40 And let's talk about doing doing this kind of as a parent to are you I know you said your son's at the game, right? Right now or practice, right Teanna Campbell 24:49 doctor? I have two daughters. The one plays football so that's what Brandon Handley 24:54 Yeah, so do teach your children and stuff. Teanna Campbell 24:58 Yeah, yeah. My kids are like my coach when I get stuck, and I'm focusing on the wrong shit. And I'm like, Oh my god, everything is going wrong. My kids will jump in and they'll be like, Mom, what you focus on grows? And I'm like, Oh, snap. Okay. Unknown Speaker 25:18 Well, Teanna Campbell 25:20 thanks. Teanna Campbell 25:22 My kids know probably as much about it as I do. I let them listen in on coaching calls. They listen to when I do trainings, there's probably the one listening in her room the next door right now. They listen to all of it, they are constantly immersed in devil in manifestation and mindset all the time. And they talk just like me. Unknown Speaker 25:45 So, clearly, Teanna Campbell 25:47 clearly, it's great conversation with their school teachers. Brandon Handley 25:53 Do they? Do they bring it up at school? Have you ever gotten a call from schools and ask them what's going on with the manifestation or anything like that? Teanna Campbell 26:00 The only time I've gotten calls from schools is when they drop bombs. Brandon Handley 26:06 And bring out the good, that's what you focus on grows? Don't you tell them that? Unknown Speaker 26:10 Right? That's cool. Teanna Campbell 26:13 Just let them be just let them be? No. But they will tell their friends. My daughter had a birthday party at our house a couple weeks ago, and all of her friends came over. And it's a bunch of little 13 year old girls who wanted to be hypnotized and have their cards read. And it was I did not hypnotize them. That would be slightly unethical. But I did read cards and ship for them. So it's actually kids are really open to this stuff. And if parents were open about what they were learning and what they were teaching, and what they were evolving through, I think the kids would grow up to be even more adept at it than we are. Brandon Handley 26:54 What I mean by that Teanna Campbell 26:56 it's easier for them. But kids, my kids have I've been explaining this to them since they were seven or eight years old. And they have an amazing handle just intuitively on what manifestation is and how to use their mind. And they, I mean, if they want to snow day, because they don't want to go to school, they just go to bed and they say, we're not going to go to school tomorrow. And it's a snow day. Like my kids can manifest and do whatever the hell they want. And I think it's really beautiful. Unknown Speaker 27:30 Um, Brandon Handley 27:33 I love that I love that they love they are in that space. I think that it is very intuitive. I mean, once you kind of cross over certain thresholds. Is there any going back to the way you used to be? Teanna Campbell 27:47 Not comfortably? Right. Brandon Handley 27:50 You know, it's kind of it's very, you know, matrix II, right? There is no going back to you take that pill, there's kind of no going back. And if you're if you're not a fan of Abraham Hicks is like, there's there's no going back. She always says that, right? She says there's no going back. Unknown Speaker 28:06 Right? Brandon Handley 28:08 And it becomes, I mean, how does it feel? Does it feel it feels 100% natural to be in that state of being? Is that fair to say? Would you say that? Unknown Speaker 28:19 Yeah. Yeah. Brandon Handley 28:23 And would you say that it's, it just becomes intuitive, and once you kind of discovered is, it's like, it's almost like you've always known that it was there. Teanna Campbell 28:33 Right? For sure. And I think breaking through to that side can be uncomfortable. Like, there's a lot of releasing the victim mode, and a lot of that stuff that we're taught through society, but like my kids, I've never heard them blame a problem on somebody else ever. It's always, like, they know how to take responsibility for what they've created. It's not just that somebody at school is mean to them, or that they got picked on by someone or that football practice was too hard. And their coach was mean, like they understand creating their reality, and that it's a mindset shift that they need to make. And because of that, I don't think like my children will ever be in that place of being a victim of anything, they will take control of it. For forever From now on, and I think kids are really, really good at that. If they're taught that from a young age. Brandon Handley 29:35 Yeah, no, I agree. What, um, and I love that they take like, 100% of responsibility and that they create that space. I mean, let's talk about what it means to create that space. What is it? What do you mean by they create that space? Teanna Campbell 29:53 I think that anytime anything happens that is undesirable, right. There's a lesson in How we kind of took part in that. And I, I do like to make a disclaimer, when I say that I don't mean the really big, bad, terrible life experiences like death. I don't include in that I don't think people manifest death at all, ever. I think that was already determined before we came here. But other things like the way that people treat you, or the results that you get either from something or from another person, it's never just something that happens to you, there's a lesson to be learned as to why that happened. If your mind was focused on, I'm not going to be good enough, or I never succeeded anything, or I never get hitched first, or people like other people, if you have those kinds of thoughts, then the result you got was a result of those thoughts. So I don't think any, that any of this stuff just happens to you. It's something that you can evaluate where in your mind, you attracted this results, and hold the space for yourself to create better beliefs and better thoughts. So that you get better results? Brandon Handley 31:23 Is it easy for someone to change their beliefs? Teanna Campbell 31:27 That's what hypnosis is for? Yes. Brandon Handley 31:32 What is so can you do hypnosis? Like over over zoom? Or a phone call? Teanna Campbell 31:40 Yeah, 99.9% of all my clients are over the phone, Brandon Handley 31:45 or just audios and hypnosis as part of it. So you talked about earlier to like, you know, hypnosis is basically sending messages or beliefs directly to the subconscious. That's what you said. Yep. How like, I mean, Unknown Speaker 32:04 right. So how, Brandon Handley 32:08 how am I preventing things from getting to the subconscious? Without hypnosis? Teanna Campbell 32:15 Um, how are you preventing things from getting your subconscious? Brandon Handley 32:20 Yeah, like, I mean, why is it what makes it what makes hypnosis able to do that? Teanna Campbell 32:26 So hypnosis, what it does, you spend a bit of time getting relaxed, right? So like Neville talks about that too, you get relaxed before you do the visualization. The reason you get relaxed or why your hypnotherapist will relax you is because when you physically relaxed, your conscious mind gets really bored. And it checks out. When your conscious mind isn't there anymore as your gatekeeper, your subconscious mind is accessible. And that's how you just put the messages straight in, you can put stuff through to your subconscious without being hypnotized. You just have to repeat it a lot. You have to put the conscious effort into it, you have to make sure that you're focused on it and not allowing other beliefs said. So it's you you can it's just like taking a long road I prefer just getting shit done really fast. Brandon Handley 33:24 know for sure so but so what you're saying then is the conscious is acting as a gatekeeper. Um, and yeah, if you're trying to put new stuff in. Like if I try to put new stuff in my brain, my conscience would be like, No, no, no, no new stuff, because we've got all this other stuff here that we're so good with. Right? Teanna Campbell 33:46 Right, right, or this other stuff we have contradicts what you're trying to put in there. Like if you have a belief that you were born into a broke family, and that you're always going to be broke, that money is hard to come by money doesn't grow on trees, etc, etc. If you have those beliefs really ingrained in yourself or in your subconscious mind, and you're trying to affirm over and over again, I am rich money flows to me money sticks to me, your subconscious mind and your gatekeeper. Like we already have these other beliefs that are different than that. So you either have to get rid of the old ones, or repeat the new ones a lot. Brandon Handley 34:33 And each time, each time I'm repeating these affirmations, though, my subconscious is like, Teanna Campbell 34:38 no, right? Right. Like you're just reminding yourself over and over again, like No, that's not true. Unknown Speaker 34:47 So, you know, Brandon Handley 34:51 I was talking with somebody else earlier this week and and the idea of, they call it the quantum question. I don't know if you've seen that when the quantum question or Have you seen Noah St. John's? Oh hell, what does he do? AV formations? Oh, yeah, yeah. Teanna Campbell 35:11 Yeah. Asking questions. Brandon Handley 35:13 So is that like ordinations? So is that like, so I just heard this weekend, there's some other dude out there doing the exact same thing. So he's calling it the quantum question. Because quantum, because everything is quantum right now. Teanna Campbell 35:27 It's the new authentic, trendy thing. Brandon Handley 35:30 Right, right. Quantum quantum authenticity. But I think that that's a trick for the subconscious right to bypass the subconscious. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So is that similar? Teanna Campbell 35:43 Yeah. So like, you were just saying, if you have grown up and been raised really poor, do you have that super strong, subconscious belief? And you're trying to affirm over and over again, I am rich, your subconscious mind is like, No, you're not. But if you're asking it in the form of a question, your subconscious mind starts to go, hey, what? And you kind of trick it and so it starts to figure out how to make it true. So I wouldn't say affirmations, affirmations, I wish you would have named it something else that was more distinguishable. But affirmations are definitely a better tool, especially when you're starting then regular affirmations that everybody preaches. Brandon Handley 36:32 Yeah, no. Absolutely feels like feels like feels like a nice trick, right? I feel like, you know, the brain, the mind, whatever you feel like calling it has to close a loop. Right? So if you ask it those questions, it's like, it just wants to close that loop. It doesn't really care. Just Just like, well, he asked, right, I need to find answers. So um, what is like one of your life? So? I love man, like I save like, all kinds of like the neville goddard ones. So the coin I haven't, I think is one of my favorites. Right? Do you listen to his speeches when he's talking? Or Geez. So yeah, do you have a favorite a nevel YouTube video? Teanna Campbell 37:19 Oh, I kind of knew you were gonna ask something like this. And I was not prepared. I don't have a favorite nevel YouTube. But there's a book and it is his last book that was ever released. And I cannot remember the name of it because it's on my phone. But it's basically and you can only get it on Audible. Um, it's a collection of a book he was working on before he died. And then some random speeches that were never like published anywhere else. Brandon Handley 37:56 Okay. The full reader? No. Who's got that one? Right. The full readers a one of those ones. Teanna Campbell 38:06 Yeah, not a whole lot of his books together. This is something Brandon Handley 38:09 something else. Well, I've got one audible credit. I am going to use Teanna Campbell 38:15 telethon. Hold on. I have. I'm tricky. I have two phones. So give me such a burner and ridiculous. Teanna Campbell 38:24 Yeah, no. Unknown Speaker 38:28 No. Brandon Handley 38:34 While you're looking that up, I mean, do you see the space is, you know, growing becoming more acceptable. versing The, the you know, the conservatives base? Like, what are your thoughts on kind of where this is going? manifestation or mindset training and just kind of being in the space? Teanna Campbell 38:59 I think that people are getting more and more. Um, Teanna Campbell 39:10 it's just becoming more accepted. And I think that by hearing your friends talk about it, or I'm hearing it talked about more on things like Instagram or YouTube or whatever it is. People are becoming more inclined to pay attention to it and to accept it. So I think it's it's making a big I hear more and more people talk about it all the time. Or people come to me and they're like, Oh, yeah, I've actually heard about that. And I'm like, Brandon Handley 39:52 say What? Get out of my spigot. Teanna Campbell 39:54 It's not this big secret anymore. Unknown Speaker 39:56 Right right. Now I hear you. I hear you. And then I Brandon Handley 40:04 was so I'm kind of waiting on you to to get your novel guy. Teanna Campbell 40:08 No, I don't know what my phone is doing. I want it. I think it might be this one called the infinite potential, but I'm not. It's like 400 an hour. It's not really 400. Yeah, infinite potential. Unknown Speaker 40:24 Yeah. And what do you love about it? Teanna Campbell 40:28 It's not the typical Teanna Campbell 40:32 stuff that you hear about nevel because it's not, it wasn't. It's not one of his big books like feeling is the secret or any of those. So it's not the same regurgitated stuff. This is like his, it's more advanced level, but he also doesn't speak quite so biblically. In some of it like he does in his previous works. It's just a different vibe. And I'm sad. He never like actually finished all of the stuff he was working on. There is one book in there that is basically like taken straight out of the Bible. It's not my favorite one. But it still has a lot of really good points to it. Brandon Handley 41:20 Right. So I think it's interesting, too. And I don't think that we mentioned that yet that most of his stuff is out of the Bible. Right, like, right, you're like, but when he talks about it, he talks about it in a way that I know I'd never heard about it. The Bible talks about that way. Right? Because if it was like, I still remember, the first time I heard I was listening to one of his books driving from North Carolina to New Jersey. And he's talking, I got excited. I was like, this is it. I'm driving by myself like, right. Right. This is awesome. I mean, I was like, Why? Why? I was like that this book is now this book is cool. Teanna Campbell 42:09 Right now this dude's legit. Right? I'll let him Yeah, I do. I love how he takes the Bible. I grew up in a very, very religious LDS household. What does that mean? Brandon Handley 42:24 Oh, god. What LDS mean, okay. I don't put it okay. Yeah. Teanna Campbell 42:29 The Mormons. Have you ever heard of those Brandon Handley 42:31 people? Yeah, they're they're out there. What is LDS stand for Latter Day Saints? That's what it is. Okay. Teanna Campbell 42:39 Yes, Latter Day Saints. I forget not everyone lives in Idaho, where there's a mormon church on every corner. But we grew up I grew up super Mormon, and I never identified with it. So I was kind of like the black sheep of my family because I wasn't all up in the Unknown Speaker 43:02 Mormon. Teanna Campbell 43:04 Hold version of shit. And they all use the scriptures all the time to harp on the way you should be. And so when Neville started using the Bible and explaining that it's a guide for manifestation, and it's not this historical book that we're supposed to, like, emulate, I was like, Oh my god, I love this guy so much. Brandon Handley 43:30 I love to try to get anybody in your family to listen to Teanna Campbell 43:34 my immediate family, my mom and my sisters, my brother, they have all actually like crossed over to my side a bit more. Yeah. They are not Mormon II at all. And they will talk about manifestation and they will talk about the feeling and the focus, and I think it's really fucking awesome. Brandon Handley 43:56 I love it. Yeah. What would you say manifestation is when I'm manifesting? What am I? Teanna Campbell 44:06 You are Teanna Campbell 44:09 programming. Teanna Campbell 44:12 Oh, there's so many different ways. You can describe it in so many ways. But you're programming your desired reality into your subconscious mind so that it manifests on the 3d physical plane. Brandon Handley 44:24 You're saying my brain is a 3d printer? Teanna Campbell 44:27 Yes. Yes. Oh, that's beautiful. Teanna Campbell 44:33 Yeah, brain is a 3d printer. Brandon Handley 44:35 That's awesome. That's awesome. Who else do you really love in this space? Um, outside of nevel that you kind of teach about, Teanna Campbell 44:43 and Lauren so Val shin. She's the mom. I love her so much. Brandon Handley 44:49 Haha. She is awesome. She's awesome. Teanna Campbell 44:52 I don't know how she is not preached everywhere. Like I don't know where people decided. Abraham Hicks was Gonna be the one that everyone relied on but they are missing out on so much. Yeah, by not having Florence plastered everywhere, which and it's Brandon Handley 45:13 Hi, favorite affirmations from Florence Give me one or two. Because she's she's an affirmation queen. She's a great affirmation queen. Teanna Campbell 45:21 I don't use hers. Brandon Handley 45:24 All right, no, no, no worries. I gotta look one up because I Teanna Campbell 45:26 have basically one affirmation that I use. Okay, and it's not hers. What is it? Oh, it's there's nothing I can do to fuck this up. Who? I love it. Brandon Handley 45:41 Love it. Nothing is as yours or do you have somebody you want Teanna Campbell 45:48 I heard something similar from a YouTuber Her name is Jasmine. She teaches about like how to manifest this was a specific person, which I don't really get into because I don't give a shit about it. Um, but she said something similar to that. And I took it and adapted it to my language. And now it's just basically the only one I use Brandon Handley 46:12 a Teanna Campbell 46:13 lot. What were you pulling up by Florida? Brandon Handley 46:16 Like it's like I love them all. So the thing that I love about forest is that hers like so she was an artist. So when she's writes, he does a really good job of painting the picture, which is what you're supposed to when you write but not everybody does it with the visuals that she can do. She's got one that's like talks about Here it is. Here's one that I really like, I am harmonious happy and divinely magnetic and now draw to me my ships over comm See, that's not the one I love, though. Teanna Campbell 46:44 Like, I just like that one. I don't love it. Brandon Handley 46:46 Yeah, but she's got so many and a couple of them. When I know when I was listening to her, like all times always listening to, you know, the game of life and how to play it and your word is your wand. Right? And one of them's like, you know, I see lines in my path, and I walk up to them realize that they're friendly. airedales, which is a type of dog, right? I didn't know what airedales were for a while, but I finally was like their dog. Uh, but it's true, right? You're, the things that you are afraid of that are on your path. If you don't walk up to them, you know, you, you're always afraid of them. But when you walk up to them, you see that, you know, they probably provide more benefit than other another thing that between I was listening to her nevel all the time. And it was the idea of just giving all your worries over to God but I also translated God into my subconscious because of, of nevel right and I was like, God all makes fucking sense as like if I just if I just give it over to like the 95% that pumps my you know, pumps my blood grows my hair grows my nails and does a bunch of other shit that even if I didn't know how to do it, I wouldn't be able to do it any better than it already does. Right? Why don't I just go ahead and let that part of me do that. Teanna Campbell 48:10 That's where mine comes from. There's nothing I can do to fuck this up. Like I if my subconscious or my god self, whatever you want to call it is handling it. My little mere human pimply body like can't mess it up. So it's exactly the same thing. Hello. I love them. I love them. I love them. Right. Brandon Handley 48:35 Right. And I agree, right? If you're if you're out there, and if you're in manifestation land, and you haven't checked, either one of them out nevel is is different, highly. I personally, I mean, I don't know about you, Tiana. Like I love how he talks like there's nothing better than like kind of driving down the road and listening to Neville talk. Teanna Campbell 48:58 Right? Except you do have to be careful. There was one book I got from Audible, and the narrator was terrible. And I just listened to the whole thing. And I'm like, that is not what the fuck never would say like, I knew it was his words. It was not his tonality or his voice and I was so traumatized. Brandon Handley 49:22 There's a guy out there, just I have Brant that reads a lot of his stuff. And he does a good job, but he's still you can't so the recommendation here is if you go find some nevel on YouTube, do not you must you must listen to him deliver it in person because his cadence is, was that a lilt to his voice right? Like he's just very, very, you know, Barbados. Just I love it. Right. Unknown Speaker 49:51 And yeah, Brandon Handley 49:52 yeah, check out some forums. What else do you love about Florence? Teanna Campbell 49:58 Why do you have it She's just straight to the point. I think that's really that's how I teach. I don't do a lot of the fluff and the pomp and circumstance that like Abraham Hicks throws into it. Um, I like it very direct and to the point, and that is exactly how far it's like if you've ever looked at her books or books or this small. Yeah, it's because she's not about Unknown Speaker 50:26 God want more, right? Teanna Campbell 50:26 She's like, this is it. This is what you need to know. Go do. That's it. And I love that about. Yeah, Brandon Handley 50:33 that's cool. It's perfect. What are you like, I just love her. Like I said, she paints great pictures. She has good affirmations. She's very clear, succinct. And it just all makes sense, right? Once in once you kind of get into this the flow and the pattern of this space. She's simple. It's easy, right? Keep it simple, stupid, right? And that's what she does. She keeps it simple. She doesn't try to like you said add anything to it. I think Teanna Campbell 51:05 she has a quote as she starts one of her books by basically saying keep it simple, stupid, but she doesn't say stupid. She said something else. But that's how she starts her book. She's like, keep it simple. Brandon Handley 51:16 Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be everything else. Right. One question for you. Right? Be if I've got a, you know, money block, right? If I'm having a problem with getting over that in my life, what's the quickest way I can get over that? Teanna Campbell 51:37 evaluate your relationship with yourself? I mean, Teanna Campbell 51:44 yes. Oh, every time it's when somebody has a money blog, it usually has to do with the way they feel about themselves. It has almost never really that much to do with the money. It has to do with they don't like the way they look. They don't like that they didn't graduate high school. They don't like that. They haven't had a lasting relationship. They don't whatever it is, they don't like about themselves. They're translating it over into their bank account. By healing your relationship with yourself. The money heals on its own. Pretty much every time. Brandon Handley 52:25 keepin it simple. I love it. Where should people go to find you? Teanna Campbell 52:32 I'm Tiana Campbell on YouTube. Brandon Handley 52:36 You're blowing up? They're blowing up there. I know. Unknown Speaker 52:42 Why yes, I am. Alright, Tana Campbell over on YouTube. Thank you, Brandon. Yeah, thank you for being on today. Teanna Campbell 52:50 It was really fun. I appreciate it. Thank you.

In today's episode, Helene Jewell talks to TWO guests! First to Susannah Raffe and then to Cat Duncan-Rees and the episode focuses on the IAFEW Conference 19 - 23 October 2020. These show notes include a transcript, below usual summary.  On Twitter, we are @fac_stories and @HeleneJewell https://curatorsofchange.com/ You can register now: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/annual-conference-2020-the-power-and-practice-of-facilitation-registration-97307526431 There are concessions available for IAF members, and those in need of support.  Susannah Raffe Susannah is a facilitator, compassion advocate and climate communicator, and co-host of London Meetups. You can find her on LinkedIn and Twitter: https://twitter.com/SusannahRaffe https://www.linkedin.com/in/susannahraffe/ https://susannahraffe.com/ hello@susannahraffe.com And bravely heading the planning of the conference, which of course this year is online. Susannah focuses on helping people have better conversations about climate change. She started doing this back in 2014, and she started using this facilitation started in people's homes. She also coaches change makers, on a one-one basis. She's used the last six months to reflect on what's important to her, as facilitator and human, leading her to call herself a "compassion advocate". The conference is taking place between 19 and 23 October. The conference will have a mix of sessions - for facilitators of all levels, including those who don't call themselves facilitators. The focus is on building community and getting to know each other, with morning coffees and evening networking sessions. You can drop in for five minutes, if you fancy it, or have longer conversations if you feel like it. The signing up this year is different: you buy one ticket through Eventbrite, https://www.eventbrite.com/e/annual-conference-2020-the-power-and-practice-of-facilitation-registration-97307526431 which gives you access to a MeetUp group (as this is where the community already meets online), where you can sign up to the different sessions - some of them have capacity limits. This also gives you access to session leaders and other attendees to the session, both before and after the session. There's a range of sessions, about different topics, exploratory conversations, how to support diversity and inclusion, and even a WhoDunnit mystery game and wine tasting (by previous guest Pinar, check out episode 16). Susannah is looking forward to meeting some of the session leaders from outside the UK, enabled by the fact that the conference is online. This includes session leaders from Africa and India. At the moment there are no overlapping sessions (Helene is worried she won't be able to make all the ones she wants to go to!), but this might change as the programme is evolving. Listeners, check out the programme, which looks amazing! Susannah feels like preparing the schedule has been like baking: getting all the ingredients together, and then put them all together rapidly, at the same time. (Editor notes: she's done great!) It being online, has allowed the process to be more emergent, adapting the format to a host the proposals, so that the community can guide the content. Being online has allowed it to be a week long, rather than two days. The Meetup group will continue to be open for further connections - of course attendees can come from wherever in the world, even though the programme has been curated with the EW chapter in mind. Helene has got her head round the fact that the conference is going to be online, and is much more aware of the benefits, including the diversity of attendees. And Susannah has been crashing other regional meetups, and felt very welcome! 17.01mins Cat Duncan-Rees Our second guest is Cat Duncan-Rees, curator of change, creative disruptor, pirate, wife and mum! https://twitter.com/CatDRees https://www.linkedin.com/in/cat-duncan-rees-3666181a/ https://curatorsofchange.com/ Cat fell into facilitator in the public sector, after seeing someone else do great work, and being mentored by them. She uses many techniques from PinPoint, and mashed it with other practices, "doing what makes sense and hopes for the best" (like most of us!). Cat has recently joined the IAFEW Leadership team and is now standing for the board, she finds herself landing in these situations when they most makes sense. She's been around the IAF for a while, and started going to the Manchester meetups. She was going to run a session at the IAF Global summit, which was cancelled - and after attending a virtual meetup, and having an interesting conversation (which features in our own Facilitation Stories episode 20), she was encouraged to "stay around" and become more involved. Her and John Varney ran a session for IAFEW, and more! She's even become part of our Podcast Team! (You can hear Cat also in episode 20 https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/fs20-various-voices-climate-hub-creating-space-to-reflect-working-with-interpreters-and-async-facilitation ) She finds she can both learn and pass on plenty of stuff in the facilitator community. Cat is running TWO sessions in the conference: Upping the Facilitation Game in a Time of Crisis, with John Varney, and Be More Pirate (which was the one she'd already planned) Upping the Facilitation Game in a Time of Crisis is a follow up/extension of the conversations they've already been having on the future of facilitation As facilitators, we are privileged to hold the space for others, so there is a responsibility to be aware of how we are shaping the conversations, and our own influence. Is our "neutrality" also preventing us from being part of those conversations?  What does it mean to be human? "Our own humanity is a fundamental part of the shift we're going through." That's how we'll be starting the week! (It wowed Helene!) About her second session, Be More Pirate, what is a "pirate"? The Be More Pirate movement (of social change) https://www.bemorepirate.com/  started with the book of the same name. The session, which she is co-leading with Alex Barker , will look at how to apply the "pirate" principles in organisations operating more like "the navy", and how rules be rewritten, and challenge the status quo.  If we're serious about upping the facilitation game and create a better society, what would it look like if we applied the Pirate principles?   Helene really wants to go to both sessions, to make her brain hurt... join her, listeners!  Links to people:  podcast@iaf-englandwales.org https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales @fac_stories Our host: @HeleneJewell on Twitter https://twitter.com/SusannahRaffe  https://www.linkedin.com/in/susannahraffe/ https://susannahraffe.com/ hello@susannahraffe.com https://twitter.com/CatDRees https://www.linkedin.com/in/cat-duncan-rees-3666181a/ https://curatorsofchange.com/ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Helene Jewell 0:00 Hello facilitators and friends and welcome to Episode 25 of Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of facilitators. To find out more about us head over to IAF-world.org. And follow us on twitter @IAFEnglandWales. My name is Helene Jewell, and I'm your host for this episode, which is going to focus on the October conference. And that's happening between the 19th and 23rd of October, and it's online. Today I'm joined first by Susannah Raffe, who is going to tell us a bit more about the conference itself and about herself hopefully, and then by Cat Duncan-Rees, who's going to talk a bit more about the session that she's leading at the conference. So first up we have Susannah. Susannah is a facilitator, compassion advocate and climate communicator who helps people to engage bravely with the big scary issues of our time, using the climate crisis as a starting point. She is a member of the IAF England and Wales leadership team and co host of the IAF London meetups. She's also bravely taken on heading up the conference planning this year. Welcome, Susannah. Susannah Raffe 1:11 Hi, Helene. Helene Jewell 1:12 How are you? Susannah Raffe 1:13 I'm good. I'm good. Right in the midst of all that conference planning? Helene Jewell 1:17 Excellent. So yes, I know, you've ended up driving it along quite nicely. So before we head into conference land, what I thought I'd ask you about is your work. And if you could tell us a little bit more about the kind of facilitation that you do. Susannah Raffe 1:32 Yeah. So my background is in sustainability and climate change. And that's how I got into facilitation through that didn't a lot of my roles involve facilitation. A couple of years ago, around 2014, I started looking at, you know, the power of conversations in bringing about climate action. So I focused on how to have better conversations about climate change. And that started with an organisation back home in Australia called climate for change. And we set up that organisation to facilitate conversations in people's homes, with their friends and families about the climate crisis. Because sometimes those conversations can be hardest with the people closest to us, and to generate that understanding and generate a social climate for strong action on the climate crisis. And so when I moved to the UK, I thought, How can I bring those learnings more broadly, and realising that it's not just climate change, where there's a lot of polarisation and difficult conversations, but that is always my starting point, because that's my background. So I run workshops on how to have better conversations on climate change. those tools are applicable to all sorts of issues big and small. And I also am now offering coaching one to one for changemakers, who are looking for different ways to engage with other people and have those conversations and practice having those conversations. Helene Jewell 2:55 Amazing. And has that has your work changed a lot recently, over the last six months or so? Susannah Raffe 3:01 Yeah, I guess I've had a lot more time to sort of think about what I offer, who I am in all of this. And just reconnecting with, with what's important to me, as a facilitator and as a professional as a person as a human. And that's where the phrase compassion advocate has come from. Because all of my work is based around bringing more compassion into our conversations, whether we're talking about climate, whether we're talking about COVID, whether we're talking about racism, or whether we're just talking about whose turn it is to unload the dishwasher. Helene Jewell 3:34 Oh, fantastic. Yeah, let's not forget the small things. And we've got your email address and contact details at the bottom of the show notes so people will know their how to get in touch with you. Susannah Raffe 3:48 And I'm very easy to find on the internet. My name is unique. So type it into Google, and you'll find me Helene Jewell 3:53 Yeah, we're having a conversation before we about how to pronounce your surname, because it is quite an unusual one. Okay, so let's talk conference. Now let me get the dates, right. It's happening over five days, I believe. And that's the 19th to the 23rd of October. And it is all online. Can you tell us a bit more about how it's structured and how it's set up? Susannah Raffe 4:19 Yeah, sure. So yes, it is 19th to the 23rd. We will be opening the conference at 9:30 on the 19th at the moment, that's what we're planning to do. And it's going to be a mix of so obviously lots of learning sessions, workshops on on facilitation and looking at the lineup it is for all levels. So whether you're starting out in facilitation or whether you're really experienced there is something for everybody and everything in between. We will also make it really about community and building community and getting to know each other. So we've got our coffees in the morning, our coffee in the lobby in the morning at 830 and evenings. We'll have evening networking from 5:30 That's sort of trying to mimic that, that face to face conference feel. So you know, face to face conference, you might show up to the lobby a little bit early, go to the coffee station, make your coffee, talk to some people there. And so that's what that coffee in the lobby session in the morning is, if you can only drop in for five minutes to say hello, because you've got other work to do, that's fine. Or if you can come and stay for the whole hour to have a chat and a debrief before the sessions get started. That's great also, and similarly in the afternoon in the evenings. And so yeah, they sort of bookend days, and then lots of learning in the middle, as well as some really fun sessions too. Helene Jewell 5:33 And if people want to sign up for the conference, do they have to sign up for particular sessions within the conference? Or do they have a one ticket and they can sort of just drop in and out? How does that work? Susannah Raffe 5:46 Yeah, it's one ticket for the whole thing. And you get that on on the Eventbrite link. That's always the best place to start for any information on this conference is to go to that Eventbrite link. And once you've signed up, wait, then what we've got is a private Meetup group, an exclusive Meetup group, because what where our community already meets is on meetup, we have seven different meetup groups around the country already, which we used to meet face to face. Now we meet online, all year round. That's where our community already meet. So we're setting up an exclusive Meetup group, just for the conference delegates, and that's where you will be able to sign up for each of the different sessions. Because obviously, some sessions will have capacity limits to them. So we'll be able to manage that there. But also, beauty of using meetup is that you can chat to other conference goers, you can get directly in touch with your session leader. If you're having trouble session leaders can get in touch directly with their attendees to let them know how to join, give them instructions on joining online, if there's any special things there, and just yeah sharing things. So I'm really excited about that element as well. But the first port of call is always going to be getting your ticket on Eventbrite and then let you know how to join meetup. Helene Jewell 7:00 Brilliant. So it sounds like there's a real kind of focus on community and enabling funny that because we're all facilitators, enabling conversations and people to kind of connect and have those opportunities to sort of meet up with each other in the virtual space. Susannah Raffe 7:16 Yeah. So we obviously wanted to have some really strong learnings. And we've got some great sessions, introducing new tools and techniques, as well as looking at some familiar favourites and taking them online, like open space technology, which for most of us were like, How on earth would you do that online? Let's find out. And then we've got, you know, exploratory conversations about what it means to be a facilitator in this time of crisis, as the world changes, and also thinking about how we can more strongly support diversity and inclusion in big questions like that. So there's a whole range of things. So lots of really strong learning. But also you're getting together and having a good old chat. And we also, I just can't avoid mentioning that we've got some really fun things, including an online wine tasting, and a whodunit murder mystery game. So super excited. And probably more of those things to come. So as the programme evolves Helene Jewell 8:12 And I think that's really nice that there's a kind of fun element as well, as you know, after a day of learning, maybe Yeah, bit of wine tasting. I'm very intrigued as to how that's going to work virtually it sounds fascinating. But all these kind of nice things, that sort of buffering the main element of the conference, that sounds great, Susannah Raffe 8:31 Yeah, we don't want to just sort of have sessions and then leave people to themselves in their in their room. This is a conference and we want people to be engaged with each other. So hopefully, the wine tasting will help. Helene Jewell 8:44 So aside from the wine tasting, is there a session that you yourself are particularly excited about? Or a couple of sessions? I don't know what kinds of things stick out for you? Susannah Raffe 8:54 Um, so I'm, well, I guess one thing about this being online is that some of our session leaders are calling in from around the world. So we've got some insights from outside of the UK, coming to our conference, which is really exciting. And we do have a session around diversity and inclusion by John Cornwell, Monica Atim & Basil Manning, and they're calling in from several different countries in Africa and really excited to get their experience and their insight. We've also got session leaders calling in from India, parts of Europe, and then also all across the UK, and bringing, bringing their different perspectives. So I'm just really excited about that. Helene Jewell 9:41 Wow, those sessions sound really cool. I'm gonna be just sort of struggling to know which ones to go to, but they are all what's the word consecutive aren't there there aren't parallel sessions. Am I right Susannah Raffe 9:52 At the moment with our preliminary programme, I've tried to build it so that they're not overlapping. However, we continue to get more and more really amazing sessions. So there will probably be some overlapping sessions, some decisions will have to be made. I'm sorry about that. It's so hard that the hardest part of going to a conference is deciding which sessions to go to. And of course, you know, we've all got our lives and our households to deal with. So, you know, we're just going to have to make some choices. But there's, there's something really interesting on every day, and as much as possible, we'll make the sessions consecutive, but there probably will be a little bit of overlap. Helene Jewell 10:26 Cool. Yeah, that's the great thing I guess about having so many things is there are only so many hours in a day, and it's better to, I guess, have so many things and then make a few choices, then not have those things there at all. So I'm really excited to see what's going to be coming up and I have had a quick nosey at the preliminary programme, which you've done an amazing job of putting together I mean, how has that been actually sort of scheduling everything? Susannah Raffe 10:50 Yeah, well, it's been quite a lot of work in a short period of time this week, just to try and pull that all together, sort of everything happens at once I was thinking about the other day, and because I tend to think in metaphors, I was thinking about baking, where you can get all the ingredients ready. But then everything has to happen all at the same time for everything to be ready, in one meal. Get all the ingredients ready as much as you can. But at the same time, you know, we've got like, several different dishes that you have to have ready at the same time, it's gonna, it's gonna be challenging, but it's been really lovely, the engaging session leaders, they've all been really great. And also excited about the, you know, getting into that community spirit of the conference as well. So I'm really looking forward to that. Helene Jewell 11:37 Yeah, very excited. Susannah Raffe 11:39 The the approach we've taken for this one, and something that we probably couldn't have done if it was face to face is take more of an emergent planning process. So we didn't have a grand plan at the start, we had some ideas at the start. And some of those, we've thrown out the window, because they haven't turned out as session proposals have come in, but just sort of making it much more organic, and emergent. So that one, it takes the stress off of us as the organising team. But also it means that the community can really guide how this conference goes Helene Jewell 12:11 Brilliant. And yeah, for those people that came last year, it was a two day face to face conference, this has a very different feel. You've already talked a bit about that the benefits of for example, we've got people presenting or hosting sessions who are from all over the world, what else would be a benefit? Because I think sometimes we will have a lot of facilitators, myself included a little bit, I think we have this kind of like, Oh, we can't be face to face, because that's what we're used to. And there's so many benefits of doing it virtually. It's just a sort of different animal, I suppose all together, what what else would you think are the benefits of us being sort of virtual this time? Susannah Raffe 12:54 Yeah, I think that that's come up a lot in our meetups, that as facilitators, before all this happened, we're like, yeah, we, you know, we know you can facilitate online, but we'd rather not, you know, we're not going to do it. And then all of a sudden, now we all have to do it. So it's one of the benefits of this conference is learning how to facilitate online and upping that gap in your game in that space. But also, you know, obviously, last year was two, three days long. This one is all week long. And because we've had to sort of think differently about the conference, and decided on having that Meetup group, it means that there can be we're going to keep that Meetup group open for a little bit after the conference so that people can find each other and connect with each other in different ways. And people can attend. As much as the session leaders can be from around the world. The attendees can be from around the world and especially around the UK, obviously, we are IAF England and Wales. So we've curated this for our England and Wales, community. But you know, geography is no barrier to attending and nobody has to buy train tickets until the train travel. Or, or block out their diaries entirely. If they're like, okay, I can, I still need to be on call that week. But they can still attend the conference, which brings up its own challenges as well when we have to be, when we're trying to attend a conference and we've still got things going on at home or at work. So it will be interesting to see how that how that goes. For people have had experiences. And I think for for us, certainly, if the IAF running an online conference, this is going to be a learning experience. So it will be really valuable to hear what people's experiences have been compared to face to face conferences. Helene Jewell 14:48 Hmm, I mean, it sounds very much like it's you know, so much has been included to make sure that it is the most amazing you know, week or five days of so many different things. And I think, yeah, there is probably a tendency for us to go, you know, it's nice being face to face. But actually, for me personally, at least, it's a bit about just changing the way I think. And so all of those benefits, you know, the idea that people can come from all over the world and those kind of things, I think is so important. And I think sometimes it takes us a little while to sort of get into the mood of doing something online. Actually, I think it's going to be an amazing experience. And I really have so excited. I mean, I do the, the Bristol, you know, host the Bristol IAF meetups, and often we'll have people that aren't from Bristol, or even, you know, from people from Ireland and all over the place. And I think that's the, you know, it's so nice to have that sort of diversity when you have virtual stuff. So, yeah, Susannah Raffe 15:51 yeah, I've certainly gatecrashed some of the the non London meetups, and was welcomed with open arms. So I'm very glad about Helene Jewell 15:59 Yeah, excellent. And so what other questions have we got for you today? We are going to put all the links and everything in the show notes. What should people oh I haven't asked about cost? How much is it? Susannah Raffe 16:13 This is a very good question. If I can remind myself the full conference ticket is 90 pounds. But there are discounts if you're an IAF member, and there's also a special concession ticket if you're suffering financial hardship right now, because of the global situation. I mean, it's it's tough for us all. So but the standard rate is 90 pounds. And that gets you the full week, the meetup group the community all of those things. Helene Jewell 16:39 Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Susannah, for joining me today. And yeah, if you want to get in touch with Susannah, her website is susannahraffe.com. And all the meetup information and Eventbrite links will be in the show notes so so please have a look at them Next, I'm joined by Cat Duncan-Rees, curator of change, creative disrupter, co production advisor, pirate, wife, and mum Welcome Cat. How are you? Cat Duncan-Rees 17:12 I've arrived a little bit. Yeah, here I am podcasting. It's quite a new random thing for me. But hey, we'll see what happens. Helene Jewell 17:21 Oh, we like random things. Thank you so much for joining us. So what we're going to talk about today, ultimately, is your sessions, plural, I think at the IAF conference, but I thought leading into to that I'd like to find out a bit more about you as a facilitator. So and obviously, I'm interested in the pirate thing. But I don't want to steal your thunder because I think that's you're going to tell us maybe a little bit more about that at the conference. So yeah, facilitation, what kind of stuff do you do? Cat Duncan-Rees 17:51 And so my background in facilitation is largely public sector. It's one of those things that kind of fell into I just found myself in that space. I think there was somebody in an organisation I was working for who I kind of hugely admired in terms of what he could do. And I was like, I could never do that I kind of ended up working alongside him a bit. And he was so encouraging and supportive. And I found actually, I could do it. And not only could I do it, actually, I loved it and I really enjoyed it. And it gave me a sense of purpose at a point in time of my life where other things probably weren't, you know, at their best. And it was kind of just a yeah, one of those things that I fell into, but I wouldn't go back to do to anything else. Helene Jewell 18:39 Ha. And what kind of what sort of does it look like when you facilitate? Or is it sort of very different depending on who you're working with? Cat Duncan-Rees 18:46 Yeah, different. I've done a lot around public sector health and social care. And for me, it's mainly about creating that space for people to kind of reflect, you know, the usual kind of stuff that that facilitators sort of do. But my training and my kind of lot, the techniques i've i've used have come from pinpoint origin. So pinpoint facilitation, the work of Keith and Bruce so done all their training, and I've kind of assimilated all that and mashed it with lots of other things that have taken my fancy over the years, really, so I kind of just do what makes sense. And hope for the best. Helene Jewell 19:27 I think that's true of a lot of us. I like the word mashed But yeah, I think it's an eclectic mix of, yeah, whatever sort of works at the time, I guess, isn't it? Nice? Excellent. Okay. And you are a think relatively recently sort of joined become part of the IAF leadership team. And I think you're standing for the board, aren't you? Cat Duncan-Rees 19:50 Yeah, yeah. I just kind of seem to fall into these spaces. When it when it makes sense. I don't know if that rings true for anybody else. But yeah, just let's just go with it and see what happens. And I followed the if for a while. And it's been a source of curiosity for me. And I think last summer, I started to go to some of the meetups in Manchester with Adrian and but I was on the road a lot travelling with work. So actually to physically get to the meetup was was was quite difficult. And, and then got sight of the global summit. And I thought I quite like the idea of that good Sweden, Sweden's actually one of my favourite places to go. Anyway, and I've sort of fairly recently gone more freelance as well. So having that time to play with my own time, and, you know, carve out my own kind of destiny in that sense. So it's somewhere in the process, I randomly applied to do a session at the global summit. And that was accepted, obviously, that's not going ahead now, and then ended up in lockdown on zoom, going to some of the meetups went into a national meetup, met John, who John and I were in the last podcast that I did for you, in that session, and we have this very random conversation with Martin at the end of the session, which, which became a podcast. And that's kind of like, I think just the sense of interest that people showed in some of what we were talking about, and the sense of welcome that I felt from people and the connections and the meeting lots of different people through the kind of virtual sessions that the IAF have put on those regular monthly meetups regionally and nationally. And some of the other things that have been, have been a huge encouragement to me during lockdown. And, you know, when we, when I haven't been on the road as much and been out meeting people, I guess, we all feel a little bit of that. And, and, and then John, and I ended up on the Martins kind of encouragement, doing a session earlier in the year looking at what it means to facilitate the future that we want. We had another session last week, with another very interesting and deep discussion that degenerated into utter madness at the end, which was just brilliant, you know, that real humanity, I've actually let we're in this together, there's an element of depth to all this stuff. And but also, we're human, and it's alright, to have a bit fun with this. And, you know, Helene Jewell 22:32 I love the way that that session or your It was about the future of facilitation, I think was that the title that that that session and your conversation at the podcast were all that we put into the podcast was, I guess the true sense of something that's quite emergent. It just kind of appeared then is morphed into this sort of, because I actually came to your session, the second of those sessions, and it was quite Yeah, full of really interesting stuff. And, you know, some great discussions that have appeared to have Yeah, come out of haven't been planned or just come out of suppose your thoughts and your conversations back then. Cat Duncan-Rees 23:05 So yeah. And then I think, you know, there was that a plea to help with the podcast a bit, which I kind of responded to, and, and then and then I just thought, you know, well, when you advertising for people to be part of the board, and it is no, it is an area of interest to me, and I am completely freelance now. And I have a bit more time and what can I give back to, you know, a community because there's that that mutuality, in all of this isn't there? It's not absolutely, how can we work with and support one another? So yeah, but you know, standing for election to be part of the board's been part of a leadership team, who knows, you know, whatever happens happens, but it just feels like an exciting kind of time to, to want to push myself and, and to want to be part of that space alongside of the people that I can learn so much from, as well and share that sort of space with Helene Jewell 23:58 Yeah, it's a really nice community, I think. And yes, very pleased to be part of it. Okay, so we're going to talk now about the conference thinking about community. And, yeah, thinking about whole week, we've got a whole week of or five days of conference, and I believe you've got two sessions on the go, is that right? Cat Duncan-Rees 24:16 Yeah. Why do you one when you could do two? Helene Jewell 24:20 Nothing like going for it? So what are the two sessions? What are they called, first of all Cat Duncan-Rees 24:26 so we've got, um, kind of towards the start of the week, we've got upping the facilitation game in a time of crisis. That's a bit of a follow on from the conversations that we've had about facilitating the future we want. And that's been a kind of very sort of emergent thing over the last few months. And the second session, which I think is kind of going to help close the week off is at be more pirate and the be more pirate stuff was was the stuff that we were going to take to the global summit, but obviously, so that was kind of more formulated and established and you know, we put that forward already. So that's why we've ended up doing two things. Because of the ball, I've ended up doing two things, because that was already in the pipeline, and the kind of connection with John, John Varney and the work that he's doing and the conversations we had around facilitating the future one, it just seemed to make sense to bring that into facilitation week as well. So that's kind of a theme running across all of that. Helene Jewell 25:26 Okay, I like a good theme. Cat Duncan-Rees 25:28 And I think that first session, the, the upping the facilitation game, in a time of crisis, we hope is an extension of the conversations that we've had already around facilitating the future we want, and it's a response to, as facilitators, we are very privileged to hold space with people Helene Jewell 25:48 absolutely, Cat Duncan-Rees 25:48 in a way that a lot of other people don't have the opportunity to. And with that, for me comes a level of responsibility in terms of how we are influencing the dialogue and the conversation and the shape of things to come. Helene Jewell 26:03 Yep. Cat Duncan-Rees 26:03 And we talk a lot, you know, in terms of facilitation terms around neutrality, that's not a bad thing. But really, it's peeling back the layers and understanding what that really means. And if we are, you know, truly neutral in a space, are we endorsing, you know, that the problems and the challenges that we face? Are we absolving ourselves of the responsibility of actually bringing something of ourselves into that space, and challenging the status quo? And, you know, helping people to move towards that different, that different future? And so, you know, there isn't, there isn't an answer to that. And we don't pretend to give an answer to that, or even come up with an answer to that in terms of that session. But we really want people to come and join that conversation. And and really kind of help help us think through what that means. And I suppose a big part of that, for me is, what is it? What does it mean to be human, and our humanity, and how we connect with people in the world around us is, you know, a fundamental part of the shift, I think that we're going through as a nation and, and indeed, across the whole world. And coming back to those roots is, is so important. We get so stuck in system, process world and system process responses to everything, that we forget the simplicity of our own kind of humanity, and human to human connection, and the importance of that in how we kind of move things forward. So that's the start of the week. Helene Jewell 27:40 Wow, that sounds like a really good session to get your teeth into. And sounds like it's the kind of thing that is gonna breed so much discussion. And I don't know how long session Cat Duncan-Rees 27:51 we have actually allowed two hours, it will be a, you know, chunk of time because often we come into these spaces, and we, you know, we use the breakout rooms quite a lot. And you just get stuck into a discussion and then somebody hits that close breakout rooms button and you're catapulted back into. So we want to create space for people to have a really good conversation about some of that stuff. Helene Jewell 28:14 Absolutely. It sounds like the kind of thing that is going to need time and space to breathe. And yeah, time to allow people to have a think of it. Okay, looking forward to that one. And so, the pirate one. Now I do I know what the pirate refers to. So as we are on zoom, and we've got the camera on which you can't see in the podcast, I'm going to hold up the book that I think Cat is referring to. And I have read the book. So I know a little bit about the pirate thing. But for people that don't tell us a little bit more about the pirate thing, why you are a pirate and what that's got to do with your session in a few few minutes. I know this could probably take quite a few hours. But anyway. Cat Duncan-Rees 28:54 Yeah, how long have you got it follows on from what I was talking about? Just Just then in terms of upping the facilitation game, and facilitating the future we want. So in a nutshell, the be more pirate movement started when a guy called Sam Conniff wrote a book on social change rooted in the whole kind of concept of Golden Age Piracy. And because he'd kind of clocked on to this idea that golden age pirates were a big movement for social change. What Sam did through that book was and what Alex who has just taken over captaincy of the be more pirate movement and who will be doing this session with me have have done is demonstrate how those pirate principles are being applied within large organisations today. So where Golden Age pirates left the Navy and went pirates or privateers you know and and were kind of endorsed to go and try and shake things up a bit. And we're kind of using the analogy that there are lots of big organisations out there, or not big organisations and just lots of spaces out there that feel a bit like the Navy, where people are exploited, where people aren't free to kind of be who they are and to make the changes that they want to make. And the end results are, you know, not always favourable for people who need that extra bit of support, or even for people, you know, working within those kind of cultures, which can be quite oppressive. So how do we apply those those principles? And how do we kind of encourage people to stop, reflect on what that means? explore what the stupid rules are? Think about how we break down some of those stupid rules. But more importantly, how do we rewrite the rules, and challenge the established way of doing things as those golden age pirates did? So yeah, that session at the end of the week is a bit of a kind of, it'll be fun. It'll be it'll be there'll be a look a bit a little bit of a look at the kind of, you know, the context of that. And Alex will bring, you know, some of what she brings into that space, which is, you know, which is brilliant. But it will be a challenge again, at the end of the week. So if we're serious about upping the facilitation game in a time of crisis, and bringing about that challenge to the establishment and, you know, creating a much better place society for people to live in. What does that mean, if we apply those be more pirate principles to that? Helene Jewell 31:30 And so for us as facilitators, then I guess, going through from the first session to the last session, it sounds like the the kind of thread is about Okay, well, how how can we be involved in this as facilitators? And I guess, what is our role? And what kinds of things can we do to maybe to be more pirates to be to create the book or the maybe the book, but but maybe it's not about being more pirate? Maybe it's about? Yeah, just I guess it could be, as you say, there's little things but it's about our role, then I guess, as facilitators, Cat Duncan-Rees 32:03 I would say to people, you know, come with an open mind, because, you know, we're not in a market of telling people how to respond to any of this stuff, or what to do. This is the space, a safe space, or a brave space, actually, to explore some of this stuff. And to have that level of honesty, and, you know, integrity and depth of conversation. Helene Jewell 32:25 intriguing. I'm fascinated, I hope I can go to both your sessions because they do sound, I think, yeah, like the kind of thing that's going to possibly make my brain hurt slightly, but that I kind of, yeah, I like a session where I'm going to come away and, and feel like I've definitely explored things as far as I can. In the time I've got Thank you so much Cat for joining me today. It's been lovely to talk to you. And I really look forward to seeing you at the conference. So that's the end of today's episode of facilitation stories. Make sure that you're subscribed to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And if you'd like to contribute to the show. Well, are you a facilitator? Have you got a story? Have you got something to say about an IAF meetup you've attended? If you have send us some text or even an mp3 audio and we'd love to know you're listening. You can get in touch with us on twitter @IAFEnglandWales you can use the hashtag IAF podcast we are on email podcast@iaf-englandwales.org where you can find out more about us over at the England Wales page on the IAF-world.org website if you want to get in touch with either of my guests today. They're both on twitter @CatDRees, or @SusannahRaffe and you can get in touch with me @HeleneJewell. This has been Facilitation Stories brought to you by The IAF England and Wales  

Subscribe: Let us do the hard work and send the podcast to you: https://bit.ly/2NZjODA  Review: Share the love and leave a 5* review from your phone: http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1375904962 (from anywhere else hit the ‘Write a Review’ button in the Apple Podcasts app or iTunes) Guest: James Perry (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesperryaccountingsuccesscoach/) Topic: Marketing and Finance Discussion Points Guinness!! Irish history Personal branding Financial education Professional marketing qualifications Importance of practical experience Link to the live video:https://www.linkedin.com/video/live/urn:li:ugcPost:6712752394180075520/ Enjoy the Episode - Happy Marketing! Website Thingy: www.marketingstudylab.co.uk The Professional Bit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersumpton/ Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingstudylab/ Tweet Tweet: https://twitter.com/cousinp81 Transcript (this transcript isn’t 100% accurate but provides a decent representation of the conversation – soz for any confusion)   Peter Sumpton  Hello and welcome. My name is Peter Sumpton, marketing consultant and Lego master of marketing and you're listening to the marketing study lab podcast live. Well, this bit isn't live, but the rest of it is. You'll hear a bit about that later. I mean, now, let's crack on. These episodes are taken from my live show marketing and where we look at the relationship between marketing and a specific topic. Subject or specialism, sometimes there'll be guests other times it'll just be me. So let's get cracking Okay, fantastic. Live live live love it. And I am so delighted to be joined today for this little chat with Mr. James Perry. James How are you doing?   James Perry  I'm good Peter. What about yourself? Thank you for having me.   Peter Sumpton  No problem. I'm doing pretty damn well to be fair. Yeah, all is good big workshop today. Hang on one second. Yeah, just a bit of technical difficulty there Yeah, I did a workshop today that had loads of people in it which is absolutely fantastic all engaged all interested in in marketing and the theory and about how you build a marketing plan and stuff like that so I can't complain sunshine and I think it's a bit cold outside but who cares? This isn't a weather forecast. So we don't really care Believe it or not, the weather is lovely here. It's not cooled   James Perry  and we're in the north of Ireland here which is all we get out.   Get out that's not Peter like I say to people the London for Ireland this Hibernia which meant which means the land of water so I   Peter Sumpton  see now you're gonna have to come back on because I don't know enough about islands and I don't know how I'm going to link it to marketing but there's bound to be some way and your knowledge of marketing and marketing your knowledge of Island and the history is on real so yeah, we're gonna have to link that in some way shape or form I'm not sure how but like well   James Perry  here we go. One of the biggest brands in the world is Irish.   Guinness   Peter Sumpton  well see that's why I invite you on you just keep me in check and make me look fun cuz I'm   James Perry  brought on brand Ireland and I brand Ireland. For a country is incredibly strong. hoka high kind of country an island of 6 million people get every person in the water to celebrate Irishness on one particular day. Or Patrick's Day.   Peter Sumpton  Thoughts marketing at its finest. That is that is brilliant. That isn't how I thought we'd start today. But yeah, let's let's carry on down that route. Yeah, absolutely. Bang, right. Like, like what what Guinness Do you know, they are the antithesis of a heritage historic brand, which keeps transforming what they do from a Marxian perspective yet keeping that history. And those those brand qualities of the the, the white top, the black Guinness, that the iconic glass, that the only company I know that can create an advert about water, and not even mention what they actually sell what they actually do and that you should drink something else other than Guinness and then publicise it, I mean, just amazing stuff.   James Perry  The way that the company was find it, so there's finally over 300 years ago by Arthur chemists who signed this is true, a 9999 year lease on some chambers get   free, because that's one of the sources of Dublin mountain water.   Peter Sumpton  But that's not   James Perry  how they get the symbology as well, Peter, which odd stir brown the heart, the heart is the Brian baru ARP, okay, Brian brew was was an ancient Thai king of Ireland. And even that is symbolic. So you know exactly   what they're doing in terms of their branding.   Peter Sumpton  Well, but that's again, Irish knowledge come into the front. They're not only Irish, but marketing knowledge. Marvellous. And that's what that's what we're all about. I absolutely love it. We'll probably come back to that if we get a little bit bored later on.   James Perry  But we never get bored by Fred. We never get bored.   Peter Sumpton  Well, that is that is very true. That is very, very true. But let's try and stick to half an hour slash four or five hours. I think the mcse live you can go is four hours or something I can't remember. Anyway. That's Mike's it. Right? Okay. Let's go on to a few more serious elements. And then we'll come back to the Guinness stuff and all that kind of stuff. So let's start with your background, a little bit of information about yourself what you do and what you're all about right now. So everybody knows that, what we're what we're going to chat about and how amazing you are.   James Perry  Well, I'm a chartered accountant by profession, accountancy has always been been in the blood Peter so degree in accounting master's degree in accounting and worked for a firm called Grant Thornton for 10 years sort of bigger global firms was an associate director with them, then I moved in tend to stray from not even quarter of wkd, another another alcoholic drink Kima Francia controller with them. Then I left and went to the government, I was the government for government rule for four years, again, as a financial controller on then things happen in life where I had to take a career break, which then pushed me and to starting a company or a business called the cutting success coach, which is my main thrust in terms of LinkedIn and in terms of my, my own business with without, which is to coach accounting students on their exams, and also up and coming accountants and seasoned finance professionals through career development. So that's the main business, I am also a part time teacher, a teaching fellow with the University of Ulster as well. And teaching accounting. So that's my background is all pure accounting.   Peter Sumpton  Cool, excellent. And in a bizarre way, that's kind of how we met with your pure accounting background, my pure marketing background, we're both in the educational field, we both teach marketing, and finance professionally. So it was just really good connections. And the more we spoke about both, the more we realised, from an educational point of view, and just purely departmental, that the links and the synergies between both of them were, were unreal. And then we got chatting about that, and a whole host of other things we've got in common, but let's not mention that Liverpool, the champions of the world, and pretty much champions of everything, shall we? We'll just stick to the marketing and finance on   James Perry  our head is the greatest company ever.   Peter Sumpton  forgot about that? Yeah. God. Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic.   James Perry  You're You're definitely like in the synergies in both marketing on the coating, stroke finance, especially when it comes to getting a professional qualification, look, and examine assignment as an examine assignment, albeit a different topic. And the approaches, in my opinion, are very, very similar. So opposite. That's where we had thought that definitely the professional thing in common as well. Yeah. And we've both been there and Donna disposers, which the thing?   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that's very true. And I remember speaking to somebody it was on it was on a, another podcast. And they were saying that I can't remember what field they went into. But they went to a university, and sat down in a bid business lecture. And the professor started talking. And he said, Can you give us an example of this, like, that you've been part of? And the professor said that will No, I've never been in business. I only know it academically. And the guy actually walked out. Because he's like, Well, you can't, I want to be successful in business. And there's only so far that I can go with you teaching me from an academic standpoint, if you haven't got any historical, practical application that I can learn from them. This isn't for me. And same with yourself and me. We've we've lived it with breathed it. And I think a lot of people don't give enough credit for the fact that it's all about storytelling. Marketing is all about storytelling, and we gauge with stories and people don't give enough credit for. Okay, this is the theory. But this is what happened to me, or this is a prime example of where it went wrong, or this is what we shouldn't do. Because we've I don't think people give enough credit for that.   James Perry  Absolutely not. If you can live and breathe, what you're teaching someone or what you're coaching someone that really adds a lot to it. I don't think I would have as much gravitas or could help as much if I was a part qualified accountant. I couldn't do that. Because I have sort of I qualified first time with everything. backgrounds always been in the profession. In terms of career, I got to see it very piscean monitored quite early. On no coming the other way with yourself. You know, we're taking the entrepreneurial and started starting on business and doing everything that comes along with that. And I think we're both in the right areas to help others. And I think that's a mean thing to Peter. You know, my endgame is I'm not enough to create the next generation because I'm not. Okay. What I am about, though, is to help people live the life that they want, by getting a world class professional qualification. And by doing things that I learned to, to sort of prepare yourself career forward and live your life you want. That's what I'm all about. And I mean, I'm in this to have a lifestyle business. So that's why I want to teach people how to do that.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree from a slightly different standpoint, I think the thing that's missing academically, both marketing and on finance, from what I understand from what you've told me, is the fact that we see it as this, I get this qualification, then then I can do finance, I can do marketing, people will employ me I become employable. Yes, it helps, yes, you get a foot in the door. But what happens when things go wrong? You can't necessarily rely on what you've you've kind of learned, you need that practical experience. And what you said there was really interesting about end game, then why do you want this qualification and some people just want qualifications, because it shows them they can do what they can do, which is fantastic and great. not denying that at all. But others just want it for to progress in their career as well. And, yes, it might help to a certain level, but then I feel there's a lot missing that people don't talk about. For example, when I when I talk, there's the academic marketing, and then there's the real life marketing, the very, very similar, they both need to fit. But sometimes to get that qualification, you need to talk in a certain way. Whereas in real life, you would do things slightly different. It's not the same in in finance.   James Perry  In terms of theoretical versus practical, huh?   Yeah, yes.   Give me a quick example of that. One of the top one of the topics that people find very difficult than a coding is if you're doing an auditing exam, especially if you've never worked in auditing. So if you work and you're doing someone's a concert, if you're working in a tax department, you will find it incredibly hard to relate to auditing. But because I worked in auditing, I could relate to it. And that's something I can help people with a lot. Okay, but there's a massive difference between what it says in the books or what actually happens in real life. You know, what I mean? So there is a very, very different practical element to it. And I suppose, and my coaching, Peter, I very rarely talk accounting. What I what I do talk as though was with the practical applications of that accounting, because people can go and get all the material and learn from a learning provider, but I helped to apply that amount to different thing. Different things all together. And then especially with career development, you can read all the books in the world about career development, unless you unless you've done something, or you can talk to someone who's made all the mistakes like me, you know, shock when you learn about respect as well. So did a massive difference sometimes between theory and practice? Absolutely. But sometimes you have to know your theory before you do the practice.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, yeah. And and, and that, that is the crux of the matter, there were the first live that I did with with Dr. I, we were talking about education and all that kind of stuff, and saying that it's hugely important to know that this theory, but theory alone, wouldn't necessarily get you through life, depending on what you wanted to do. And it is that that application, whereas if you flip it, and you've got no theory, then you're very, very fortunate if you can craft a career of any substance within a certain field, if you don't have that foundational level. And I'm presuming, like to my, my thoughts on on on finance, and that kind of area is that I wouldn't trust anyone that hadn't got a financial qualification to do my finances. I you know, just just wouldn't be in the same respect. If I went to a chartered accountant, then I probably want them to have X amount years of experience, rather than being that that fresh out is out of qualification. Do you think do you think once you've got a qualification, you are ready to take on the world? Or what? Let me rephrase that. What are the things that aren't taught? So you just pass the exam? What are the things that aren't taught that might hit you in the face when it comes to reality?   James Perry  One thing one point will make actually believe it or not, and it's it is a point for debate within the profession, is that you can call yourself an accountant or not be qualified. Okay. Right. You can actually believe it or not, and some of the best accountants that I know aren't qualified, and then not times that I tell them to get on the horse. get qualified is crazy, because it's adds so much credibility. credibility. So that's the first point in terms of the next bit. If someone has just qualified and they've got the accounting qualification, what I would tend to suggest is that they get that they stay with it where they are for perhaps a year or so or two. I don't know if it's the same in the marketing profession, but it's one or two years of what we call post qualification experience and accounting. And that normally is where you learn a lot of things. So there are a lot of people who perhaps qualify, say, in a coding practice, or within industry, perhaps, and I would say, stay where you are on and learn. Because that's, especially if you're going to go into senior management. And one thing that happened to me, Peter, was that I went that this was quite an extreme route. I went from being just newly qualified, straight into a senior management role. And I wasn't, I wasn't the manager, I wasn't manager, I was mid senior manager, I was promoted incredibly quick. Okay. And I was basically said, durscher portfolio of clients, go and figure it all out. Right. That's what I was taught. So I had to sink or swim. And I learned the hard way. No, that was when I was 10 or 12 years ago, and you'd like to think there's a bit more of a change, and I with proper coaching and things like that. So what I say to someone who is newly qualified, is this one to two years post qualification experience, and get a mentor or a coach. Absolutely, yeah. Because I've said, I've made all the mistakes. I was the one who didn't Dalit didn't know how to delegate. I was the only had this trinkets Knights. I was the one who was made stuff monitor at 20 it with all my mates, I was then their boss, I made every single mistake in the book. So get a mentor who's been there?   Because I tell you what not to do, you know?   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that is very true. And although we learn from our mistakes, there's some mistakes you just don't want other people to make and others, you almost feel like they've they've got to learn from those mistakes. And that's not to say that, okay, well, well, you can come in work for me or I can be your mentor. But I'm going to let you screw up. It's not that at all most will. This is my experience, but you probably better experience in it for yourself.   James Perry  Absolutely. You have to you have to walk work and run.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, yeah. So just to go back to the question, is it the same in in marketing, so what I would say, for anybody that's looking for a career in marketing, slightly different, the approach that I would take is that I would say, Don't jump to any particular position. Don't go for any particular job, look at look at the company, look at how they operate, look to see if they're marketing orientated, or whether they're sales focused, or production focused, because you will have a very, very different working life. If you work for a company that's marketing orientated, you will learn a shedload more than you will if they are sales focused, because what will probably happen is that you will be more comms based, and you will be more admin based at the very start. Whereas if it's marketing focus, yes, you'll have the admin functionality, because you're at the bottom of the ladder, but it will be marketing, it will be focused. So you'll get involved in product, you'll get involved in price place, you're getting definitely involved in the communications, because that's kind of what anyone sees nowadays is just the comms in marketing. And I think that's an issue we've got to face. But yes, slightly different to what you would say in finance. My advice would be more about think about the company, and what they can offer in terms of your education in marketing.   James Perry  It's funny, even as you say that,   whenever I was in the industry, and then in the business, once I left the ground floor, marketing was always seen as the sexy thing. Whereas finances, that's the boring thing, okay. But one thing I would say about accounting, if you are an accountant, is to go and talk to everyone else. Go on talk to the marketing department and sales department because what tends to happen or something that people have to realise is that accounting or the finance department is the eyes and ears of the entire business. Therefore, you have to pop relationships with marketing, CS, operations, Treasury, whatever that means. Be. So that's one thing that any marketing students are out there and you're with an industry, go and talk to your accountant Scott, talk to finance. Go and because remember, you're one organisation, it's not, am I that sometimes happens, where departments in a certain in one business think that they're competing they're competing or not? Yeah, that's one thing I learned massively. And accounting, I believe the term of content will be no longer and five years, we will be called business partners. That's what I believe will be called. Okay. That's because the numbers will take care of themselves through AI and blockchain. So we have to actually get off our seats and go talk to people. That's, that's what's happening. So that's where marketing and finance will really coexist.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, it was a topic that I wanted to raise with you Really? What What can what can marketing ask finance and what can finance learn or understand how that relationship with marketing but completely agree like, across their whole business, similarly, within marketing, that the fact that you need to be involved in pricing, so you kind of want to talk to the finance department to see if you're profitable or not, you need to be involved in in the product. So technical, technical, and r&d and stuff like that. And the same for finance, you know, r&d, you could spend an absolute fortune on r&d and not get anywhere. But if you've got that financial backing to say, well, these are our pinch points, you can take it that far before we need to do this, we can rely on this product for that income, then, you know, the world is a better place. And I love the fact that you just said we're one company and we work in silos some some times and that is a really, really sad thing. Just Quick, quick comment. Will to actually from from Connor, he says, Yeah, the company can teach you so much. But love this one. loving this first time are tuned in. So I'm guessing that's because it's the first time you've tuned in and you just looked out with James Perry being my guest. So   James Perry  I would have a guest Connor. Okay, if you hop off the hop and Irish connection, there   Peter Sumpton  is balance. We can't connect, let us know. Yeah, absolutely. And if you if you've got any Irish history related questions, now's the time. Now's the time to ask them. Just Just on that, just to say, if anyone has got any questions about marketing, and finance, marketing, or finance and how they coexist, or how they work together, you know, please, please do speak up happy to take them on board. So just going back to that question, from your point of view, from a finance perspective, what would you want to know from from marketing to so we can coexist?   James Perry  The first point, if anything, with marketing or than any other department, the first, the first thing that always happens at the start of the year budgeting? Yeah, okay. This is with a bottle of normally. But again, it's having conversation. So if you are a head of marketing, if you're a head of thought sort of department, again, is not to try not to sit on your laurels and going, oh, we're going to get 5% on top of last year's budget, that does not work anymore. First thing is you need to go and talk to each other. And on the terms of finance, Peter, our terms of marketing, especially, it's gonna be very topical night because my farts bring in business with with the the recession and the depression living. What's the first thing to go? marketing budget is cost. Yep. Okay, so that's all the conversations that may need to be hard. Because the other school of thought is that whenever markets are low, or whenever the economy is low, that's the time you need to promote. That is the time you need to invest. So there's so it's actually really topical the conversations that should be compared to marketing finance right now. Hmm.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I agree. So if if anybody and I'll put a link in the comments after this because after find out my phone, but Mark Ritson at marketing professor, and consultant, he wrote an article that was published today, and it was talking about sales funnels and stuff like that. But one of the examples he gave was, and I can't remember the company, but an insurance company in Australia, and basically, the final, not the financial officer, sorry, the marketing officer. He doubled down on his advertising within this period, but he did it from from a branding perspective, as well as a sales perspective. So what he did, he went to finance and said, Look, I need more money because of this. And he explained it and what they did was they had this this when no one was advertising. They put all their money into advertising. So they got huge search. Advice. And then what they did, they had these small mini campaigns, where it was a case of we know times are tough. So here's 10 Australian dollars a month to insure you for fire, theft and damage. And that was the short term tactic. And it just worked on believably well, and he gives some stats in that article. And it was just a perfect example of knowing the marketing, but also knowing to talk to finance and saying, look, this is the state that we're in. But through what I know and what I understand we need to invest in you can't really do that without your finance department being on board.   James Perry  Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's really interesting you say out too, because even from a personal marketing standpoint, bronze, Peter Brown, James. And I was actually on a course today and the question that I put out there was in the world of all this personal branding and personal marketing, I dare How can you make yourself stand out? And it's similar business and similar, similar personal, the same personal was your grant because of your Lego? Right? That makes you stand out? I probably stopped it because I'm the most on stereotypical thing. Right? I am. I like to think I'm not boring at all. I've got a personality. But I thought that was a really great question that was posed today. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna be somebody who fires a question back to the host. What can people do? Or what can businesses do to make themselves stand out from the crowd in today's climate?   Peter Sumpton  I mean, I think you've hit the nail on the head with with Lego. Here I am, just for anybody that hasn't seen rowing. There we go. That was the fella. So yeah, I think it's being being memorable or being known for one thing, who you are, and being true to that over a consistent period of time. So unfortunately, nowadays, we live in an economy and that now economy, like I ordered something from Amazon ATM yesterday morning, and it was supposed to arrive before 10pm, the same day it didn't. But I've done that previously. And it has it's arrived the same day. And that is just not it was an extension lead. And it's like, how are you making money off that? So anyway, so be known for one thing, if you want a really good book to read, and a big shout out to john esperion. It's called content DNA. And what he says in that, he says that, you should have kind of three things that everything you do gears around. So that could be and I haven't nailed mine down. So I'm giving advice, and I'm trying to follow it. But I'm not 100% there yet. I'm still playing around with a few things. So so mine, my non negotiables are Lego, helpful, and witty. So everything you see from me should be either all those three things, or one of those things. If it's not, it's not me. And so to build a personal brand, it needs to be individually, you and there's only one of you. Now, the problem you've got James, you're in a great position, because like you say, if if you said, Peter, what do I do? And I hadn't met you. There's no way I would guess what you do. So you being you stands out in your marketplace. Now, if you didn't, I would say become known for a particular thing. So whether that's you wear a bow tie, whether you are a flat cup, whether you have a catchy strapline, whether you do all those things, it's about being consistent. And I don't care how dry or boring or on entertaining somebody thinks they are. They will appeal to a certain demographic, and don't focus on everyone. Even Harry Potter doesn't appeal to everybody. So if you if you're looking for 1000 likes and to please 1000 people forget it. If you're looking to please 1015 people out of the thousands, you're on the right lines. So that's what I would say be known for the right things but make it you because the one thing you don't want is to build up this personal brand of I'm James I'm always I'm always funny, always witty, I know loads of Irish history, and then I meet you, and you know nothing about Ireland, and you're just dull and boring. And I'm like, well, you're not the person I thought you were and and the one thing I would say it's actually in this book, a quote from me, although I didn't originate the quote, but a brand is a promise. And that's the same For individuals, so when I'm talking to you, James, you've promised me that you will be engaging, you will bring your your financial knowledge, you will bring your Irish knowledge, you will be true and honest and open. And if you weren't that, I just be like, well, something's wrong here. And that's who you are. So stay true to your brand and be known. Yeah, so don't break that promise, either. And if you've been false, you'll end up breaking that promise.   James Perry  The there are two things, and one I have actively worked on. On the two things that are your superpowers. One is sleep, right? Sleeping that the part I tell my students that I'm not joking that folks, if you don't have your sleep sorted, get it sorted. Hmm. Second one is consistency. And that is the super part that I neglected for a lot for a long time. So why would have been especially on LinkedIn for my own business, I would have been up here, massive peak post and stuff stopped doing well. And then you go into that truck, and you go into that trough of God, I'm not getting too many likes or follows around. But that's a self fulfilling prophecy, because he don't post you're not going to get them anyway. To be perfectly honest, Peter likes and all that sort of stuff of comments isn't necessarily my metric anymore. Because of to try and get clients and to get eyeballs on my posts. So few use engagement, DNS in the background, having really good conversations with people. What I want to get from this, but I have solved the problem. Now I've got a VA. So I have got over the last couple of years, and the intermittent posting, I'm creating content, I maybe have two or three years with content on my laptop, and I went to my VA and I went just you go nuts. which gives me that platform of consistency. Mm hmm. It's an education piece swept to educate her, where I want her to go with it. Now she's, I could say, just slightly more creative than me, in some ways, now quite creative in other ways. But it also gives me the scope to engage, it gives me the scope to have those conversations with people in the background. And that's something so another tip I would give anybody out there is that given consistency is your shipper part of whichever discipline, if you're not going to be so good at a time source that because it's really, really important. And that's something I've learned massively, you know, I have probably over the last six months been more successful than I have last financial year on it probably factors are probably about it. It is because I've been much, much more consistent over the last six months.   Peter Sumpton  So and I suppose that that's one thing that a lot of people take for granted. So a lot of people that class themselves have influences or whatever you want to call them. You see them a lot, you see them over a consistent period of time. And that is because they're consistently posting, they're consistently on a particular platform, and you get to know them. And that's exactly what you were just saying there. It's it's all about the consistency and using a VA i think is a great idea. And I'm toying with the idea right now. And I just think that I'm so glad you went to say that, you know, it's a bit of a learning curve, because the one thing you don't want to do is outsource and then you lose you. So I'm guessing in terms of the engagement and the conversations you have that is still you it's just the consistency is being helped with having this other person do the ad mini side of being consistent. And I was very lucky who I got from my VA so I have tried and busted   James Perry  our trading task division say a number. But what I do personally is nothing business related as myself on a friend on another young lady. I've got a podcast on we have just we thought we talk rubbish   Peter Sumpton  grin and bear it   James Perry  up grunenberg with Rebecca right so Rebecca is nine my VA on that's where I've been quite lucky. Okay, so Rebecca knows me personally, she knows that I'm like she is she creates movies. She has written a novel. She's not even 25 yet. She adds fantastic in the way she thinks she's very creative. And I went okay, Rebecca, you can kill two birds with one stone here. I am creative. But I'm quite logical in the way that I think. Can you help me paint more of a story about me, but also takes the burden off me to actually have it done on my business at the same time? And I said, Look, I'll pay X amount a month. Yeah, no problem. And that has been one of the best moves either For me, I have I have paid people who don't know me, I have paid. And I just been quite lucky that that has happened for me. But it still is an education process and I will be a continual process. You know, I've noticed that the quality, my deliverable to my posts and my graphics, on even the blurb and the wording of stuff in LinkedIn is infinitely better than what it was a year ago. So again, it has evolved through maybe as help as well. So definitely get people on site that will help you because we're not going to be great at everything we can't be.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that that is one fable, if that's the right word it within marketing, it's that. And I'm pretty sure anyone in lighting will will agree that that you have to be excellent at everything. And people expect you to be excellent at everything. So not only do you have to know the ins and outs of LinkedIn, but then you also have to know how to set up and design a brochure or a trade publication. And then you know, you need to know the printing process and the difference between CNY K and RGB and the different types of paper and because you're in marketing, and it's just, it's not true, because you cannot you cannot understand everything. It's It's nuts. Is that kind of similar in a way to to finance or it.   James Perry  Yeah, okay. Peter, people come to me and ask about tax all the time I have in my life, not a tax return.   Peter Sumpton  I asked you as well, like,   James Perry  I don't know, I don't even do my own. MIT does it for me. The reason why that was is because I can draw up my own company kind of not a problem. But my specialism in a bright trend was audit. So I used to go into other companies and audit their books to verify that were recalled true and fair. And basically reasonable. And I was I was a damn good auditor. And then whenever I went into industry, I drew up the books off Wk to either drink or I stabilised the finance team. And then I write and talk to the rest of the business. So I, for example, will not look at pensions or tax or anything like that. People come to me because I'm an accountant, automatically thinking that I know but that might though.   Peter Sumpton  Right? So many synergies there.   James Perry  Absolutely. Is the probably the same in marketing. There's so many but you're specialised that. And there's some areas that are not. And that's the reason why in some of these big organisations, like it's so many different departments. So for example, Grant Thornton are known as chartered accountants, but you've got departments for everything. You know, so I'm not the reason why, you know, you can be, you can be what jack of all trades and Master of None. Yeah.   Peter Sumpton  And there's loads of things to pull from that and discuss really, and I'm just conscious of time, but that's all. But there's no way we could we could break the timer. But they talk about that the T shaped marketer, so you've got a good grounding in all disciplines. And then you focus a speciality on one or maybe two. And that's fine. But the one thing I would say to that is that everyone's different, and everyone's unique. And don't be pigeonholed into one thing or another, unless you want to be a specialist in that area. If you want to be a specialist on PPC, on SEO, fantastic, brilliant, and then maybe branch out into other areas on no other areas of marketing. But if you want to be an all round marketer, I think you need to know and understand a lot. But think more strategically, because that's the bit that's missing the strategy element within marketing we all go for the tactic, we all go for the cons, we all go for the video, and the editing behind that and content creation and stuff like that. But it's the strategic element because all that content creation is great. But like you said with consistency, not only do you have to show up consistently, but you have to have a consistent message which again goes back to your personal brand and be known for particular things. So for example for you James, I know that if I see a post that is that is black, and I don't know what political it at turquoisey blue, it's   James Perry  it's the colour of the colour and the ripples on the shirt.   Peter Sumpton  That's where they got the colour from. I wondered that brilliant, I love it. But yeah, it's those two colours, then I know it's going to be James Perry, and it's going to be talking about accountancy. And because that is you've been consistent over a period of time with those colours. One if you want to check out anybody that does that unbelievably well. There's a lady on LinkedIn. She's very prominent LinkedIn called Mary Henderson. Her colours are pink, black and grey on real Everything you see is pink, black and grey every time I see something that's pink, I just think Mary Henderson's post. Transcribed by https://otter.ai Main Intro Music Featured on this Podcast:Intro 1N15 Setuniman http://www.setuniman.com/ Creative Commons License

Great conversation with Cory Walker as we discuss being groomed for church leadership, leading a community… and leaving it all behind as his path diverted from the expectations from others. http://www.churchbeentheredonethat.com/ Brandon Handley 0:00 54321 Hey there spirits of dope. It is Brandon Handley and today we are on with Corey Walker, who is the author of boiling down your religion without watering down your faith. Cory spent about 20 years being a minister correct me if I’m wrong anywhere in here this but a minister in an Pentecostal, Pentecostal I don’t even know how to say it right. Like I said so in a Pentecostal church and stepped out after 20 years of being in a leadership role and kind of took refuge in his own heart on my call, and the sides live just outside of the church confines and more in like I said, john Hart said about right Corey Cory Walker 0:53 Davis some sort of modular. Brandon Handley 0:55 So you know, Cory I always like to say that we are Are vessels of the divine right? The Creator speaks through us. Right. And and when people are turning in tuning into this podcast, they’re tuning in to hear a message that is being delivered through you to them. And my question to you, as we start this thing off is what what is, what is something somebody out there needs to hear today that can only come through you? Cory Walker 1:26 Wow, great question. Cory Walker 1:30 Well, there’s several different things. I could go here, but the long and the short of it is don’t be afraid to make a change, if you feel like it, if it’s following your heart. So many of us were raised that particular way. We’re taught what to believe, and taught how to be taught what to think without being really taught how to think. And you if you’re just believing doctrine or someone else’s beliefs, and you’re trying to hold to those instead of actually listening in Your heart towards the divine. And my case, God would be wanting to say to you that you could easily spend years following something that that you end up feeling like you’ve wasted time later on. So don’t be afraid to make a change. I guess that’s my, that’s my off the cuff response. Brandon Handley 2:16 Sure, sure. I love that. I mean, and you did right, you made the made this change to 20 years and I think the the line that comes to mind is you know, don’t put your ladder up against the wrong wall right through and and that there’s really nothing. And I think that a lot of people are afraid to kind of go chase this thing, but what you’re saying is, even even after maybe climbing halfway up the ladder, maybe you’ve already made it all the way up to the top, but Unknown Speaker 2:47 it’s okay to make a change. It’s okay to climb Brandon Handley 2:49 back down and go climb another ladder. Is that what I’m hearing you say? Cory Walker 2:53 Yeah, definitely, especially if the letter sounds or letters keeping more consistent, like what you’re feeling in your heart. I just know. You know, it’s Been a pastor for so many years, I met with so many people talk with so many other leaders who, who knew how to toe the company line. But in private, they would say, Well, what do you think about this, though, that doesn’t really sit with what we believe and what we teach. But it’s like they had their own private belief system outside of the public one that they were telling everyone else. And you just can’t do that for extended period of time without, you know, driving yourself crazy. Because the inconsistency just couldn’t live that kind of dualism. And so you try to modify what it is you teach and teach the parts of what you have what you’ve learned and believed over the years that still ring true with you, and leave the other parts out of the fact is the whole. The whole last two years, my ministry I never preached even one sermon from the Old Testament part of the Bible, because it seemed to communicate that there was an angry God who was demanding that you behave a certain way. And if you didn’t do you’re in big trouble. And that just didn’t jive with the message of Jesus, which was what’s taught in the New Testament to me, and I understand the theological demands sticks that people do that night to neatly tie the two together because I went to Bible college but that doesn’t mean that the average Joe and common sense of really why don’t we are under grace, why do I have to do and you fill in the blank whatever it is your local church is telling you you have to do in order to be a good Christian. Brandon Handley 4:18 Sure, sure. And I think the thing is, it’s a shame that Christianity’s you know, kind of been fractured in so many different ways away from the the, the true meaning of the messaging right now. And what the hell do I know though? I really don’t know too much. I don’t I haven’t been involved with too much of it. But what I do know is that when I have a conversation with you know, somebody such as yourself that you know, is really just been immersed in it and and they find Jesus or I think, what do they call it like a, you know, the Jesus consciousness, right? It’s kind of like, you know, one of the things that gets tossed out there is what’s in those books is kind of like truth and from the heart, but how its interpreted and spun back around is either liberal or kind of fit fitting the needs of the organization that’s driving it. Cory Walker 5:19 Now let’s move on been so true. You know, parts of the specifically if you read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, telling me all about the life of Christ in His, the economy of Christ, if you want to love your neighbor, pray for your enemies. Love those who persecute you go the extra mile turn the other cheek, those kind of things rang really took my heart, but the way in which the church lives out the teachings of Christ, and that’s them together with with a lot of the old, old covenant Old Testament law type, you know, thou shalt nots, and just the whole organizational structure that’s set up to basically support itself. I just reached a point when I realized that you Man formed these nonprofit organizations that we call churches to supposedly help the members who are the people in their spiritual walk. But somewhere along the way, the organization starts to expect the members to do what’s in its best interest and spin it Brandon Handley 6:17 around. I would like to I would like to kind of caveat it right. This has been your right. Yeah. So I mean, because there’s that there’s definitely got to be a couple out there. Right. They all Yeah. Cory Walker 6:29 Yeah. I don’t want to categorize across the board is my experience. Yeah, with the with eight or 10 churches that I was either attending or on staff at over the years, the older the organization, the more likely it is that the the, the principles get minimized, and the traditions get emphasized. And as a result, it’s about self sustaining many times instead of about really bringing life and health to, you know, the average individual and once I realized that then I just took Couldn’t, I just couldn’t myself, continue to be a part of one. And I’ve even thought now that I’m not on staff someplace or a pastor someplace that, well, maybe I should just attend this church or that church, and I’ve stepped into a couple for service here there. And it just doesn’t take long when you’ve been in leadership for a while for you to start hearing the same familiar, you know, course and tone of what it is we’re supposed to do. And it was supposed to is that kind of wore me out, I think. Brandon Handley 7:27 Yeah, no, that makes sense, right? It’s kinda like all the shoulds and codes that we could be doing. Well, let’s, let’s roll it back here for a second. So let’s tell, you know, tell anybody listening today that, you know, what type of church were you? a minister at and a leader and then what does that even mean? Right, because like I said, we talked about Pentecostals. Let’s talk a little bit about what that is and what that’s built on top Cory Walker 7:54 of, if you could, sure. Yeah. Well, essentially, within Christianity you have two veins. You have Catholics Protestants. And in the Protestant vein, you have thousands, literally thousands of what we call denominations, which are different or different organizations, like Baptist or Methodist or Pentecostal, different Pentecostal denominations. But the bottom line is, each one of them has a different set of standards and rules for themselves that they believe slightly different than the other ones. And the fact is, all of them would tell you that they were originally formed because some people who were a part of some other organization said, Well, we think we got a new enlightenment or we got just a little bit better understanding. So we’re going to form our own. And so I grew up in those in most of those denominations in America anyway, sit within a category called have called evangelicals, and many times, also called fundamentalists, and those are people who have a belief that there’s a divinely inspired scripture, and in our case, the Bible, and that is to be literally interpreted and applied to your own life and there things in the scripture that I have discovered that just didn’t seem to sit well with literally applying them to my own life as an example that were like there’s a there’s a passage in the Old Testament that talks about one of the prophets, I believe it was Elijah, what could have been Elijah, I was getting confused. And it says that, that these this prophet was walking in the woods and have a group of juveniles it says are teenagers came out and started teasing him because he had a bald head, he didn’t have any hair. And he says that he called down a curse upon them, and a bear around out of the woods and devoured some of them and wounded the others. So this was the man of God that we’re supposed to be you know, maybe patterning our lives after looking up to her as a fundamentalist your thinking was, I could get so special that it wouldn’t be okay for kids to even tease me about my bald head. And if I was upset about it, I could call on a curse upon them and kind of wild animal could come and attack them. Did this didn’t sit well with my concept of God or with my understanding of Christ and his philosophy of loving your enemies and things like that, but yet, fundamentalists have to weave all those stories together in the Bible and all those truths and things that are there and try to apply them to their daily lives just becomes quite a quite a conundrum. Brandon Handley 10:22 So they’re a fundamentalist, and they’re applying it literally. They’re, they’re not using like that in any symbolic terms, Cory Walker 10:31 or allegory. Yeah, it’s one of those things. That’s not really how it’s taught. And most of the most of the denominations it’s taught as this was an Old Covenant time where God related to man in a different way than he does now. And so things have been different back then than they do now. And that you know, kind of how we smooth it over and help people feel better about you know, the Sodom and Gomorrah and the gods flooding the earth and you know, everyone but Noah being killed There’s no assembly being killed, things like that. But I remember as a, as a father of young children go into, you know, our evangelical church and just thinking, I don’t want to send my kids to Sunday school because I don’t want anybody to teach them some of these stories. And I don’t even know, I don’t know how the, I don’t know how the Sunday school teachers going to teach them these stories, or they’re going to teach him, you better behave, or God’s gonna get really mad at you, and rain down fire and brimstone on you, you know, or turn you into a pillar of salt or whatever the other story is in the Old Testament. So, you know, fundamentalists do believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. And therefore those things would not be allegory or symbolic things that actually happened. And God was relating to man, I personally now, I still hold great reverence for the scriptures and find a lot of truth in there. But I just see them as being written. While there’s a lot of truth, they’re written from a man’s point of view. And man was walking in the light that he had at the time and the culture was different, and therefore, even some places like Like even one of the even one of the passages where supposedly Moses wrote the passage, it was handed down through generations of verbal, you know, communication that eventually recorded but it says right in the passage, Moses was the greatest of leaders at all times. So they’re like, let’s he writes about himself for Charlie aggrandized themselves? Or is this really you know, what’s going on? So, it’s just, you know, you just gotta understand that people are just, you know, culture was different back then. And it was recorded from man’s point of view, and not necessarily, from God’s words, to my ears to the pin on the paper type of inspiration. Brandon Handley 12:37 Sure, yeah, I definitely get that I definitely get that. You know, but I got a wonder too, like, you know, so, this was also, you know, book that was compiled, you know, a library books, right, compiled, you know, way back when, and the translations over time as well. Right. And then one of the things that kind of pops up. I’m a fan of this guy, bill donohue, who, who, you know, has some pretty cool stuff on on YouTube. But he talks about, like, you know, what they were saying then could be real similar to so I’m hearing you talk about this, you know, called the curse and the bear chews them down, you know? And I’m thinking of how he would translate it and say it, it’s how we would say shooting the bull. Right? What was the other meaning of you know, calling that bear down on them? Right, you know, was that the bear within the man coming out and like, kind of raging out against some of those? Those are the types of things right, it’s really kind of a formula and you gotta you gotta wonder exactly, you got to really wonder and kind of play with it because I don’t personally feel like this was a book that was written to instill fear so much. Higher divinity. Cory Walker 13:51 Yeah, I think it’s it was written, to help us to understand, in fact is to understand what God was like and, in fact, Jesus Himself So as you know, he comes incarnate. It’s like God in the flesh to show us what God was really like. But then he goes around loving the least of these, if you will, and hanging out with people that it wasn’t cool to hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors and all these people the riffraff of the day. And he really makes the religious people are really mad about it, you know, the Thera sees and the sadness is they’re getting all ticked off all the time. Because Jesus not really interested in in hanging with them. He’s hanging out with the least of these. So I think you see, at least from the perspective and the story of Christ that the gods are more concerned about the little guy than he is how spiritual react or you know how much we’ve got our ducks in a row. Unknown Speaker 14:42 Now, fair enough, fair enough. Brandon Handley 14:43 So, Pentecostal, what does that mean? Was it meant to mean to be a Pentecostal or Penn is a Pentecostal or Pentecost? Yeah, Cory Walker 14:49 sir. Pentecostal. Um, yeah, essentially Pentecostalism started around 1900 and it’s a form of denomination several denominations of one of Christianity, that, that believes in the teachings of the Day of Pentecost, which is found in the book of Acts in the Bible. And it talks about a variety of gifts that God gives to man’s spiritual gifts. But Pentecostals focus in on one, which is called speaking in tongues, and it’s one of the more controversial ones. Or if you may have heard of, you know, holy rollers or people swinging from the chandeliers or wildfire, and all this weird kind of stuff in Christianity over the years, and over the last hundred hundred years or so, it’s all about Pentecostals, and it’s about having an emotional experience with God. And as a result, feeling like you’re greater connected to him, and I can really value and understand that desire, though. It’s also very centered around worship, which in modern context is, is the singing and playing of music, to bring reverence to God and to honor God and to talk about how good he is. But it’s all about what kind of experience in a Pentecostal church what kind of experience you can have when you Get together. It makes you feel good emotionally goosebumps on your arms, you know feeling like God’s presence is right there with you in the room. And all this stuff is inside emphasize you know from our kids church, we’re little kids and go into special special church service for them on Sundays right on up through the youth groups run up through the adult service. And so, you know, God really showed up is what we’d say if you felt you know, something emotional happening when when the worship was going on, or when the preacher was preaching or whatever the case may be. Brandon Handley 16:31 Sure, no, I mean, I can I can definitely appreciate that. I know that actually just did a did a piece on the word numinous. Right? And it really sounds like it kind of speaks to the same type of space right where you’ve got connection with God or an experience. Um, Unknown Speaker 16:50 and so, Brandon Handley 16:52 I love I love it. It’s just sounds to me like it may have been Unknown Speaker 16:56 over over exalted. Cory Walker 16:58 Now. What came to focus yeah became the focus instead of me being one way to experience God, maybe it’d be the only way. Brandon Handley 17:06 Sure not and I can I can definitely appreciate that. It’s very interesting. So the you said that there was a number of gifts and one of them speaking in tongues? What are some of the I mean, I don’t know the Bible myself, right. So how does somebody have the gifts that maybe, maybe some people aren’t aware of? Cory Walker 17:22 Well, the Bible speaks of different spiritual gifts. And one particular case there’s a short list and then scattered throughout the rest of the Scriptures, that mentions other gifts. Like there’s a gift of spiritual gifts of gifting, where maybe God empowers you to make money, so that you can give that money towards his plans and his services. But then the fancy ones, if you will, the gifts that people were always hoping to have were like words of knowledge and words of wisdom, which would mean you’re speaking in a conversation with somebody and you have, I would call it you have a thought drop into your head and you share that thought with them and then boom, they’re suddenly hit. just overwhelmed was oh my gosh how did you know that or or contacts incredible how did you you know have to there’s no way you could have come by this on your own like God just dropped information into my head to share with you know almost on a profit basis and gift the process he was one of those things as well which was kind of speaking on God’s behalf more so than speaking to predict the future but so there’s all these different gifts and you were told you know this The Bible tells you to seek seek spiritual guests especially those that that build build up the body build one another up. But once again and this is coming across like Korea is the the tainted former pastor that is but but it seems like people are always looking for what we have made them look the best because all this happens most of these things I think God intended for them to be lived out in our daily lives. But something in modern Christianity is that we jam. We instead of seeing the churches who we are every day we see the church as a place we go In an event that we attend, so what happens with the spiritual gifts, what’s important is what happens when you get together. And therefore you’re doing it almost on a platform situation where you’re in front of others. And the man’s tendency to want to look good and pride gets in there. And you know, you never can tell what might happen. So, I chose doors. I’m not going to but I can tell stories. Brandon Handley 19:23 No, I appreciate that. Right? Like so I mean, it as you’re kind of listing these off, right? without me being a member of a church or without me kind of going through the Bible, you know, this gift of giving is something that speaks to me, right, like, if you’re willing to give to others, then it’s my interpretation or my thought process that you know, the universe is going to continue to give to you, right, God’s gonna give you if you’re giving, you’re going to receive, right. And that’s, that’s kind of one way that I look at it, right. And then as you’re talking about these words of knowledge and wisdom, you know, words of wisdom. It can’t But make me think of the Akashic Records stuff. Right? So just kind of linking like different different. Yeah. Yeah. different spaces and, you know, gift the prophecies. I mean, I don’t know. Right. I think that i think that’s everyone, right? I think that it kind of, to me that kind of rolls back up into, you know, speaking in tongues, right? I just got goosebumps kind of thinking about it, right? Like, it rolls back into feeling that emotion and knowing that you’re kind of, you’re speaking your truth, right. But as you kind of roll back all the way back over to here, like, you know, each person kind of comes up with like, their own epiphany is like, oh, I’ve got a better way to explain it, you end up like, many, many thousands of different ways to kind of embrace and feel connected to God. Right. And, and for each person, I think that experience is going to be individual. Cory Walker 20:50 Yeah, and I think that’s good because you know, a variety of theory, a variety of belief systems and a variety of ways, is a good thing because it allows each person to find The one that connects best with them. My biggest challenge over the years had been the the competitive nature that sets in. I remember growing up and there’s sometimes a god churches, which is the domination I was a part of, and they kind of cost the combination and they didn’t specifically teach it but you know, my wife grew up in the same denomination and both of us had a conversation where just kind of came away feeling like, you know, if you were a Christian, but you weren’t Assemblies of God, you weren’t quite getting it. All right, and, and you probably know that make it to heaven, but he probably wouldn’t get as many accolades as we would, because we were a part of this something of God. And so I went off, I went off to Bible College. I know that that wasn’t specifically taught in any of the classes, but I came away with the same feeling like we’re the elite. You know, we’ve we’ve got it going on. But one of the pastors in the church that I used to serve that used to say, he used to get up a couple times a year before Easter, the week before Easter, and the week before Christmas, and you get up and announce to the whole congregation, hey, you know, there’s people who only go to church twice a year on Christmas and Easter. And he said, You should invite people to come to our church on those days. Because if they’re going to go to church on twice a year, they should at least come to church or maybe something good could happen in their life, no kind of little dig at the other church. And it’s like they weren’t, you know, good enough, or whatever it is that that had crept in to almost every church scenario that I’ve been a part of, and I think it’s just a part of nature of man. Okay, okay. Brandon Handley 22:24 No, I mean, that’s, that’s all fair. Right. So, you know, for so you’re a part of this for like, 20 years, last couple parts. You know, you just kind of started to fall out of it. And I’ve read briefly through your book. And you mentioned a book where you kind of helped you to kind of start separating away. Right. And you’ve shown it to one of your leaders. And he got it was like, Yeah, I don’t buy into this because it didn’t sound like it match with his way of thinking. Right, Unknown Speaker 22:51 exactly. So Brandon Handley 22:52 I’d love to hear a what was the book that kind of, you know, sure. It kind of changed your mind a little bit. What was that book Cory Walker 23:01 I’m going to try to get the name right here. It’s a misunderstood God, and the lies that religion tells about him. I think the author was Darren Hufford. And he was a former pastor as well. But he was talking basically the same way that I have been, which is that there’s this God who loves you unconditionally, and has, has bent over backwards to make a way for you to connect with them. But yet religion spends a story, that’s something different, that seems undesirable to many people. And as a result, a lot of folks who want to find God don’t think that they can. And it just really started me thinking, the challenging some of the concepts and really, you know, you read a book and something rings true with you on the page and like, Oh, yeah, I’ve been thinking that for years. I just kept having that, you know, those kind of moments as I was reading the book with my wife, and I was like, wow, and then we just dove into, I don’t know, one point time, was right when I first started reading electronically, I had a I had a book reader at the time, and I remember And that period of time over about a year and a half that we digest, like 60 some different books, all around the same topics of church and what God intended for the church to be and spirituality and different things like that. Now, I’m a part of a men’s book group and we read, you know, a book a month and discuss it on Monday nights and we’re reading stuff that’s outside of the vein of Christianity, which I’ve always found to be very interesting because when you read outside of what’s your typical goto and you find the same truth elsewhere, then it starts to make you think that it’s because the author of the things that you hold dear, likely was the inspire some of the other things that you’re finding elsewhere in college. They called it all truth is God’s truth. Doesn’t matter where you find it. It says true. Brandon Handley 24:50 Yeah, you know, and I agree with that, right. It’s it’s really interesting to find all these nuggets of truth everywhere. Right. It doesn’t really matter what you’re you find yourself reading, you start to see, like you’re saying kind of the same vein of how even movies, you know, show shows I’m watching. I’m like, Is anybody else seeing what I’m seeing here? Because it’s so it’s so obvious to me the story that’s being told. And again, though, it’s really like we started this, we start this podcast off with, you know, Cory, I’d like you to say something that only somebody else out there is gonna hear and understand. Right? It’s it’s kind of like I the way I’m watching that movie, or series, maybe nothing like what it was intended to be delivered. Right? Right. But I’m receiving it in a certain way, because that’s how I’ve set myself up Cory Walker 25:45 now. But there’s a divine source that’s enter weaving truths throughout all genres and all aspects of life because because that divine source that I like to call God wants us to understand him and understand life. So So much that he’s willing to inspire people that don’t even know that they’re being inspired by them to share truth Unknown Speaker 26:06 in a way that Okay, Brandon Handley 26:08 again, like I mean, you know, something’s coming through you being spoken through you Unknown Speaker 26:12 right now, this moment that Brandon Handley 26:15 is intended for somebody else not even intended for you, for me, right now even intended for me and I love this. So here’s a really interesting book. It’s called horror, right? It’s called the vital center of man by he was a an analyst, the psycho psychological analyst, but he was also a orthodox, practicing Orthodox Christian, but he also spent time and about eight years with Zen masters, right. And, you know, one of the things that this one Zen masters said to them, was, it never occurred to me to keep keep weight to keep in my head what I’ve read If I mainly read the Bible or Buddhist books and prayers, I find that only such things that agree with my own thoughts. And I think that that’s what you and I are saying here is that when we’re reading now we’re like, the books are almost a mirror to what we’ve already learned and know, right? And this has been spoken back to you. And I find I found that was like, an amazing moment, right? When I read that line, I was like, holy shit, because I told my wife, I was like, everything that I’m reading is everything I’m already thinking of, and I’m just looking for the words to properly express it. Cory Walker 27:31 Yeah, right. Some people and some people would say that you, you draw to yourself. There’s kind of a supernatural principle that you draw to yourself with as you’re looking for. You know, I just recently bought a different car. And the for my work vehicle and the type of card is I’d never really had thought about getting one before but once I got them then suddenly I see everywhere. I mean, every time I turn around, has fallen down the street. So it’s like, I didn’t look someone else’s got another one of those just like I do, I see it in part. parking lots everywhere. It’s like your mind becomes attuned to that which you’re used to or that what you’re looking for. And I looked for when I decided that’s what I wanted to buy, I was out there looking for him everywhere. And as a result, I’m My mind is turned on to that. I think it’s the same with what you’re saying what it is that you’re thinking and you’re feeling in your heart. And suddenly you start to see it come alive in the pages of books or in the movies or in the newspaper, on television shows or whatever. Brandon Handley 28:25 It’s everywhere. It’s everywhere. My first my first blog and my first blog and a couple of my first videos was called just a wit You know, this is called the blue car effect. Right You know, they’re looking for a blue car you see him everywhere is exactly what I’m saying. And, and, you know, I often go through just like what you’re saying once you set that question in your mind you know, the answers start coming up for it right you don’t sure we go look and we Google, we do all these things, but it’s almost easier to ask you know, quote, unquote Ask the universe for an answer. Just let it kind of come to you let it show it will show up. Once you have that question for yourself, the answer will show up. Now you can do it again, you can go hardcore and go hit and all the books and put all this pressure and stress on yourself. But chances are, that answer is gonna show up. Unknown Speaker 29:18 Right? Totally. Yeah. Brandon Handley 29:21 So, um, you know, so where are you? I mean, what’s it like, now you’ve left? What was the separation? Like, I’d love to hear kind of like what that was like, and, you know, in in that in that scenario, Cory Walker 29:32 that was like, divorcing everybody that you held dear. Hmm. And having everybody be mad at you, or at least it felt like it anyway. I’m sure part of its interpretation. But you know, when, you know, we kind of we didn’t really spend a story but you know, when we decided to move we moved. We decided to move when we decide to leave church we we moved out of the community we were part of and moved six hours away to a new area, and it had been On our heart to do it anyway. But this new area was very spiritually minded, but not real big on religion. So church attendance is really down here. But you see all kinds of alternative spiritual pursuits going on. And, and that’s kind of what we felt drawn to not that we were going to, you know, go start reading poems or doing something, you know, there was necessarily new age or this or whatever we still consider ourself Christians, we just felt like we wanted to be around non traditional people, because they’d be, you know, they’re not going to be looking down their nose at us because they don’t show up. And so the Pew on Sunday mornings, so it was a difficult time. Even my folks right now still have, I don’t talk about anymore, but I’m sure that they still shake their head like, I can’t believe you know, we raised this young man. And he, you know, felt this call on his life to go become a pastor. And then he did 25 years and now we just build on the whole thing. But what they don’t understand is my philosophy and I shared my book with them, and I hope that they’re gaining understanding but the philosophy is if we are the Church and that is the body of Christ as Christians, and it’s not the building. And it’s not an organization than whether or not we choose to go sit in the Pew on Sunday mornings are not as real as irrelevant. It’s whether or not we’re following the truth of God as expressed through our life and how we treat others on a daily basis. You know, my friend Jeremy messaged me earlier today and he said, What are you doing on this fine Lord’s day? And he was saying a tongue in cheek because for years for a year or so after I stopped attending church, my dad would text me about every few weeks and so on Sundays and say, What are you doing to honor God on this Lord’s day? And I started texting him back and saying, I thought every day was the Lord’s Day. Like we’re supposed to do something special on Sundays, right? But reality was saying, hey, let’s just make every day special and, and how we treat others and, and, and our daily practices is just as important everyday as it is on Sunday mornings. Brandon Handley 31:56 So I mean, I’m curious. If you You know, kind of going through that separation process, if those are some of the words that you would use to share with others as to why you were leaving? Unknown Speaker 32:10 Yeah. Cory Walker 32:13 Most people didn’t ask quite frankly. Cory Walker 32:17 You know, one of the reasons was, we were moving five, six hours away. So they just don’t know what we do or don’t want or what we don’t do. But the other part was for those who are closer, they grew up in the same kind of fundamentalist belief system. And there’s one particular scripture that says, Don’t forsake gathering together with other believers, as some are in the habit of doing and that that interpreted by every pastor I’ve ever heard, speak meant, make sure you’re in church on Sunday morning. And so when you just choose to say, that’s not, that’s not funny, that’s beneficial. And I don’t want that to be a regular part of my ongoing life, then people just, you know, there’s another practice that just kind of shown you it’s not necessarily intentional. I remember for years People have stopped coming to church and you try to get them to come back and let us not come back. And then you just say, Well, you know, that’s on them, I guess I’ll just minister to the ones who are still here, you know, but you just kind of gave up on them. And there’s a passage of scripture which says, if somebody departs of faith, try to try to turn them back. And then if they, you know, they still claim to be good followers of God, but refuse to do the things which are they’re supposed to be doing. They don’t have anything to do with them. And so I think a lot of Christians have been taught over the years based upon that scripture, that is somebody off the deep end, whether it’s messed up and drugs or alcohol or you know, cheating on their spouse or even just not going to church anymore, that you just kind of don’t have anything to do with them, either. Because somehow it’ll teach them a lesson, or because somehow their disobedience if you will, is going to tank, your spiritual walk. It’s just not a healthy thing. But unfortunately, that’s kind of the way it is a lot of boys. Brandon Handley 33:54 That’s interesting, right? So, you know, Were you upset at all that nobody asked you You know that you know, get more requests? Cory Walker 34:02 Yeah, you have a little bit of, it’s probably more grief than anger, just a little more grief, but you invested a lot into relationships, and then people just kind of, you know, part of the move, I’m sure, but that plays something into it. Because when you live six hours away from where you weren’t living, it’s just not convenient to connect in the way that you were before. And if like, oh, Cory and Lisa, his wife just moved off, you know, so Okay, well, I guess we’ll find some new friends. But you know, unfortunately, unfortunately, but I do have several. I have a band of about five brothers that good good men that I’ve known for a number of years and we all stay connected. Fact is, they’ve come down here and visited me multiple times we’ll have a rent a cabin or something and go out on the lake or, you know, sit around the bonfire, you name it, and it’s just been really encouraging time. So. Brandon Handley 34:54 Okay, so you also mentioned being around people that are spiritually minded, right? What does that what does that mean to you? Unknown Speaker 35:03 Huh? Yeah, it’s uh Cory Walker 35:07 it all starts with heart to me. I mean, I’m not a big fan of doctrine, which is philosophies and ideas that we are taught that we follow as much as I am. What’s your heart? How do you? How do you perceive the universe in your case, or God, in my case, is, is wanting you to interact with others? And are you being true to that. And there’s a lot of people around here, even though there certainly would not be considered Christians, by most or even by themselves, that we’re living more of a Christ like life. So how they lived out their heart, then a lot of people that I’ve known in church over the years, because it was about checking the boxes and doing the to do lists, more so than how we treat everybody on a daily basis. So find a lot of people like that and we’re connecting with a lot of them. It’s been it’s been a journey. It’s Rio when you leave behind your paradigm and not just your city, you know, the, the place and the venue in which you were interacting with others is now gone because we don’t attend church, then it becomes really important what you do with your daily life when I’m working with my customers or my friends or working, my kids are working with their co workers or my wife’s interacting with people in the neighborhood, those things become incredibly important because they’re really the only interaction that you have. And that’s where your social life is going to grow from. Unknown Speaker 36:30 Now I get it. So you know, Brandon Handley 36:33 I think about Buddhism to one of the big pieces of that is is the community right so sounds to me like you know that that was the community and that was your space. What what are you replacing that with just just work? Have you been able to replace that sense of community anywhere else? Unknown Speaker 36:55 Have Cory Walker 36:57 we looked initially first organizations to get into They’re like, Oh, maybe we can find some nonprofit or volunteer this or that or whatever. And nothing seems to be a good fit. And it also is kind of seriously kind of pushing our organizational buttons, because when you’re part of a nonprofit organization for decades, you just learn the politics and stuff that’s behind the scenes. But what I have found Well, if you got time, I’ll give you a quick example. One of my customers just astounds me, I’m a licensed contractor now. I went to do a bathroom remodel. And the day before they, the I showed up, Dave, for I showed up, they were, they found out that his wife had breast cancer, and she was going to have to have a lump removed. And as a result, we were we were just trying to, you know, remodel her bathroom, but she just opened up and shared all this information with man. So I’m sorry, master bathroom. So she’s in there sitting on the bed, and adjacent room looking in while I’m working and just poring over heart and talking to me. And I’m like, well, she didn’t even know I was a former pastor. And I hadn’t even spoken Difficult as a Christian, but I was just listening to what she said, say and kind of just empathizing and trying to help her. And she seemed very appreciative of it. Well, then she goes in for an MRI right before her surgery to make sure that the cancer about spread and it hadn’t. But they found out that her aorta was enlarged, and she’s gonna have to open heart surgery. And so then she A week later, she goes to meet with a surgeon for open heart surgery. And he says, Well, I don’t think this is even operable. And I’d say you’ve got less than five years. And she’s like, Oh, my gosh, so she comes home and she’s just talking to me about all this stuff. And then I just opened the door for us to have conversation about what it means to be alive and what takes place after you die and how none of us really know exactly what that is. But we have to do whatever it is that helps us find peace in the moment. And then I just was able to share with her that I believe in the divine, and that I believe that good things away for us after the fact because because of his goodness, not because of ours and then just loved on her and told her I was praying for her and master if there’s anything we could do to help, and we walked her dog while she was out having surgery and you know, just trying to be a decent human being, and that seems to be more important to me than ever before, because that’s where I’m meeting people. And that’s where I’m making connection. So, Brandon Handley 39:18 sure, sure. Sounds to me too, like, focusing on the few right, focusing on the present, focusing on the moment. And not not being concerned with like, having to have like, to being good, decent human being. Yeah, right. And does it does it need to be more, but it sounds like your community is kind of like within those that you everybody’s part of your community? Cory Walker 39:42 Yeah, I always felt like I was felt a little resentful, in fact, because I had this quote, unquote, calling on my life through your minister and it seemed like everybody else had their regular life. And then, and that was it. And I had my regular life and the special calling, which involved me doing all these extra things to go above and beyond. It’s just like, Oh my gosh, how much do I have to give, but now I’m just like, just being a decent human being and your regular life goes a long, long way. And these people we’ve connected with three or four times a year, we’ll have big parties at our house and just invite all my customers and my wife’s friends and different people from the neighborhood over and just, you know, have a chili feed or have this or that and it’s just incredible that people will be walking around living room. So how do you know Cory and Lisa, talking to each other and ask them questions like, wow, we have either been planted here by somebody else, or we have just dropped into this neighborhood and have started to make a difference in the lives of people in our community. And word is getting around the other day. My wife posted I was doing some work on her own house and she posted a picture of me doing the work on her Facebook feed and someone that’s never met either one of us, but who is in the community and is fairly well known. So as you guys are the new power couple. We’re sure glad to have you. Yes, smile. I was like, I don’t know that. We’re Anything special, but it’s good to see that we’re actually making an impact. Brandon Handley 41:04 That’s great. And I mean, does it feel nice that you’re kind of making this impact without having to feel this extra pressure to do so? Cory Walker 41:11 Yeah, totally effect is another friend of mine asked the same question a couple days ago. Is it great to be pastor Corey, it’s great to be Cory and still have pastor Corey and I said absolutely candidate, just so much less pressure and, and not having to pour your resources and time and effort into an organization which may or may not be promoting the things that you believe gives you the time and resources to pour into the people that you come across on a daily basis. We were able to help a single mother who was in terrible needy situation a few weeks ago, and we had the money to do it because we weren’t giving 10% of our income to an organization every every week when we got paid, you know, and and for those who believe that that’s what they’re supposed to do. That’s great. I did it for years and it worked for me then but it no longer does. And now I now I look for opportunities to give To help and to be a decent human being to everybody around So, Brandon Handley 42:04 right, right, I mean, not just not just to the church, right? Yeah, just one specific organization. It’s another, you know, again, you know, I’ve got a buddy who’s a Buddhist Reverend, and he talks a lot to being able to give charity with wisdom, right? And not just not just do it kind of blindly. And yeah, just kind of give away everything just because, but do it with with a sense of wisdom and a sense of knowing that, you know, what you’re giving to is, is from your heart, not just because back to your point to just check a box, right? So, I love that. So, you know, I’m just kind of chuckling to myself, but you know, you know, let’s, let’s say that, let’s say that you’re creating a church. What would that look like to you? Right? What would it be, you know, if you were to spin off, out of all these other thousands of different organizations You know, and maybe you feel like you’ve been touched in a way that maybe some other people hadn’t been? How would you do differently? Cory Walker 43:08 Well, great question, in fact, is we’ve asked my wife and I’ve asked ourselves this question many times, because one of the things we did not want to do when we left organized Christianity was just to go create a slightly different version of it, that we thought was a little bit better. We just kind of want to set the whole thing aside and try to live out our faith on a daily basis. That being said, you know, when you get up and speak to people on a weekly basis, or maybe multiple times a week for a half your life and then you stop doing it and the largest group to speak to might be three to five people. And that would be on a rare occasion. There’s always an itch that wants to be scratched, to get up and speak to people again. I’ve toyed with potential for some motivational speaking or maybe even a little bit of stand up on occasion, a local club, one of the local clubs turns out just because I have a gift of gab and I enjoy using it but If I were to create something that looked like a church, it would probably just be more like something where we got together on a monthly basis to just swap stories about what was going on in our lives and the good things that we saw taking place. And maybe, you know, 10 or 15 minutes worth of positive, encouraging instruction, towards just being a better human being, that would be the most organized I’d ever want it to be. I’m not renting or owning a facility or you know how to take up an offering or anybody getting a salary from design or anything like that. Just Just humans who consider themselves part of the same community gathering together to recognize that there’s divine presence in our life. And when we follow it, good things happen for us and the people that were around, Unknown Speaker 44:47 nice, all of that. So Brandon Handley 44:50 if somebody out there is feeling this kind of divine pull to break away from a life that they’ve always known, you know, how would you How would you want What would you say to that person? How would you help them through that? Right? Cory Walker 45:03 I’d say give me a call. Cory Walker 45:06 Actually, my website has a place where you can connect with me if you’re gonna if you’re on that journey, because you’re going to feel alone. And if you just Google non traditional Christian, you’ll get a bunch of stuff that comes up. But none of us really dealt with how to transition out of organizational Christianity at all, was more like, you know, trendy type churches where they have smoke machines and stuff like that, you know, or rock and roll music or whatever, you know, wasn’t really more along the lines of, Hey, I don’t really want to sit in a church on Sunday mornings anymore. And it, you know, I guess, effect is I have several friends who are life coaches, and I’ve done a little bit of myself and I thought on a couple occasions, maybe down the road, what I need to do is make myself available as a spiritual coach to people who are transitioning away from traditional forms of a face into more of a daily applicational living and just Help them walk the journey as someone who’s just maybe a step or two ahead of them down the path somewhere path. Unknown Speaker 46:05 Yeah, no, I Brandon Handley 46:06 love that. Right. Listen, as you said earlier, we don’t know how this thing ends, right? We don’t know what’s on the other side. But what we do know is that today, if we’re living in accordance to living from our heart, if we’re doing what we feel is as good as it can be, you know, then every day you can theoretically you could be in heaven, right? Every day you can live a life that is giving and is the spiritual way. But there could be someone who doesn’t know what it means to live life as worship right. My niggas got something you were saying earlier right? live every day so it was the you know, the Lord say and again, you know, listen, I think that there’s bristles right like, you know, from for people, you say, God, they’re like, Oh, no, Cory Walker 46:56 there goes yeah. Cory Walker 46:58 loaded, loaded term. But for Brandon Handley 47:00 even for me, right, I still I still toy with it mentally. You know, when I write the word God, I do little g just because I, I it’s just, it’s just the whole concept, right there’s there’s a wall in my mind with big G, right, but there’s no wall in my mind with universal or creative energies, all these other things, these are all ones that are free flowing, that mean the same thing. Unknown Speaker 47:26 Right? To me. Brandon Handley 47:28 And it’s easier for me to accept it right. So I think that you know, just just just as with you, like, if somebody were on this path, and they were coming out of a traditional church that would be easy for them to gravitate towards you, right? Because you’re got that experience. Whereas like, if it was somebody who’s coming onto this path that was just kind of coming onto this path. That wasn’t such a big g kind of guy, right? Then it might be somebody like me, right, where he’s like, Listen, we’re going to talk in Universal we’re going to talk all these other things, but Cory Walker 47:56 yeah, Brandon Handley 47:58 I love I love what you’re doing. There. That I think that that’s, you know, wonderful because they need that right. And here’s, here’s one of the things that I was saying too is is of with, with your, with the Bible with a faith with religion, it’s kind of like a framework for the space that you’ve gotten into is that you know, how, what is your What is your concept or idea that like as as it being the framework, not necessarily the whole building and structure and everything that it needs to be. Cory Walker 48:29 Yeah, that’s a good way that’s a good way to look at it. I think it’s the skeletal structure and you put the meat in the bones on after the fact you know, it’s not the bumps and beaten in the skin on after the fact you get to build out your faith in the way that you that you can feel good about. Now, I’ve never believed spirituality was just all about feeling good. But the bottom line is, you need to be able I need to be able to live in a way that’s congruent with what I believe and if my beliefs are such that they’re preventing me from Living honestly, with my heart, then I’m just not in a very good place. And so, you know, I think religion is a good place and, and traditional forms of religion are a good place for to give structure for people who feel like they just be lost out there on their own if they didn’t have, you know, some guidance or some set of this or that, to help them down the path. And and I respect that. And one of the things that we believe over lifetime believe when we first stepped out of out of traditional Christianity was that it’s every individual’s responsibility and privilege to figure out what their faith is supposed to look like for them, instead of telling someone Well, you shouldn’t go to church, you know, I’m going to say, Hey, if you’re finding benefit in that, and I think my book reflected that in a couple ways, if you’re, if you’re finding benefit and being a part of an ongoing church, then then do so but if it’s not long, it’s no longer working for you. Don’t be afraid to step away and I just felt like that makes a lot more sense. than the one size fits all, you know, hey, let’s all jennea flex every Sunday or let’s all take communion on the first Monday, first Sunday of the month, or let’s all do this. Cory Walker 50:10 To me, it just wasn’t it wasn’t working anymore. Brandon Handley 50:12 Now I get it. I get it. Do you see yourself ever going back into it? Cory Walker 50:16 Yeah, you know, my best friend. His name’s Jeremy. I think you’ve met him before. But he says. He says, Don’t you wish we could just go back to being good Methodist. Now neither one of us have been. Neither one of us have ever been Methodist. But the sentiment is Wouldn’t it be so much easier not to ask the deeper questions and to follow your heart and just do what you’re told. Just to show up once a once a month or twice a month and show some change in the offering and feel good about checking the boxes. Sure, when neither of us. Neither my wife or I really feel like we could ever take that journey back. There may be some phenomenal church out there that teaches the love of Christ and the grace of Christ without all the shoulds and this open to anybody who wants to come that we just haven’t discussed Get but certainly in our region. To my knowledge, it doesn’t exist. And know, if it does, I’ll ask, I’ll ask the divine Lord of the universe to bring it and drop it in my lap. So that all is there. And it does and I’ll be happy to walk through the door Brandon Handley 51:15 a little bit. What um, you know, I was like trying to find out some different books or whatnot, you said you went through like 66 books as you were kind of gone through going through, you know, the, the E reading phase, what are what are some that like a really kind of revolutionized your way of thinking as it comes all this stuff? Cory Walker 51:36 Well, you know, if you’re coming at it from a Christian standpoint, there’s couple good books, one of them’s called organic church. I can’t think of the author right now that is well known. And it just talks about some of the stuff I’ve talked about here today, about how it’s supposed to be an organism that’s supposed to grow on its own. And it’s supposed to be a living, breathing thing that’s made up of people not organ organization. The other one was called patient Christianity, it was a great book. And it talks, it traces all the doctrines that we hold dear today, back to in many cases, their pagan roots and the sense that they’re not, not of God, if you will, not biblical roots, but just traditional roots that go to different different types of belief systems all over the world. And so don’t get so hung up on whether something is biblical or not, you know, because most of what we do in our Sunday morning services isn’t from the Bible, it’s just things that are developed over 2000 years worth of religion so but you know, on the non Christian, if you will side outside of the mainstream, I really love the books like the Four Agreements and, you know, books that just, you know, I’m reading a lot of stuff. Like recently we’ve been rereading for third or fourth time then Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. You know, just a lot of the lot of the stuff that for years in church, we were told not to read because you’re supposed to read Christian stuff, but yet every time I read the stuff that’s not Christian stuff, because by training of my upbringing, I’m seeing all the biblical truth that’s present in the non Christian stuff. Show goes goes back to that the divine wanting us to have truth bad enough, he’s willing to put it wherever he has to, in order to get it into our hands. Brandon Handley 53:13 Right. I mean, that’s the whole, you know, cast it was a casting pearls before the swine, right? Like, I’m not saying that though, there’s always going to be this wine that doesn’t understand or appreciate the pearl. Right, versus you know, somebody else is looking for those exceptional pieces wherever they go. Yeah, that’s kind of, you know, so I’m hearing a little bit. So I’m curious there too. You know, I would hear stories about like paganism and the story of the cross in Christianity. I’m curious, did the pagan Christianity book did it talk to that at all? Cory Walker 53:45 Well, the cross it didn’t specifically mention the cross. But we do know from historical documents that the cross was the form of capital punishment that you know, the Romans Jews and the Romans were occupying Israel at the time so Jesus would have died on a cross Because of, because that’s the way that they killed people back then. So that, that, that from what we can tell is accurate, but there’s just so many like even, you know, many of the end just things are so interwoven together and we don’t even recognize it. And I’m just going off of memory. But like even the you know, like today when we give toasts, maybe at a wedding or at a party, and someone raises their cup and gives a toast to somebody, it’s traced back to Communion within Christianity, where Jesus took the cup and said, This is my body is broken for you, as often, you know, drink this as often as you as often as you drink this, remember me. And so a lot of the things that are interwoven throughout our, throughout our culture in our society, can can come from some Christian stuff, and then a lot of the things that we have in Christianity came right out of very non Christian, what we would call pagan societal practices, just as a result of you know, having As the message of Christ spread throughout the world, it would be in and spread into different cultures than it was originally brought to. And result, different things would be adopted. And so that is a great little book called pagan Christianity. And it’s a, it’s a good read. So Brandon Handley 55:16 thanks for sharing that. And like you’re saying, it’s really interesting to see where something starts and where it ends up. Right? How did it start? And where is it showing up in different spaces in our lives? So thank you. Thanks, man. You know, I think it’s been a lot of fun. I think I really definitely enjoyed kind of going through. For me, Pentecostal stuff was really kind of eye opening, sharing those gifts was also something to me that I wasn’t aware of. Right. So I think that there’s definitely stuff within, you know, Christianity within the scriptures that can really speak and rang true to some people are afraid to go into because of the organizational stuff because of some of the horror stories because of like, you know, you know, like, just your, they don’t want to go in and check off all these boxes, but they do. Do want, they do want to feel, quote unquote closer to God. Right. Unknown Speaker 56:04 Yeah, totally. And and so, you know, Brandon Handley 56:08 I think that that’s available to anyone like you’re saying, just kind of go out and seek it for yourself right and see, can you sell fine, right? Whatever. Whatever whatever you’re seeking is seeking you all that jazz. But Corey, thank you so much again for hopping on today. Where should I send somebody who’s going to come? Look for Corey Walker, Cory Walker 56:29 probably the easiest way is to go through my website and that’s church Been there, done that calm, church, been there done that calm. And while I certainly still believe in the church, I just believe it’s who we are. A church attendance is something I no longer do. So that’s why we named a website that the web the book is available for free download there. And there’s ways to contact me through there if you’re wanting to just somebody to talk to or if you’re wanting to develop an ongoing friendship or relationship you know, that’s the joy of the internet. Now we can find people, even though we may be in the minority We can find people from all over the world that we can connect with who are thinking and feeling the same things. Unknown Speaker 57:06 Now 100% So, let’s say you started Coreys spiritual coaching today what what Who do you feel like would be your ideal client? Cory Walker 57:18 Um, you know, people who definitely people who grew up in the Christian faith, but who are seeking who seeks to find benefit in it and or they just can’t, they can’t live with some of the inconsistency is that they’re finding and the faith and instead of getting dumping God all together, if you will, they can find an alternative way to express their fate without having to have the religious aspect of it. That’s probably my ideal Unknown Speaker 57:45 client. Awesome. Well, guys, if that’s you reach out to Cory. Cory Walker 57:50 Thanks, Cory. thank thank you so much. Have a good day.

In this episode of the BTP podcast, Emaad joins Pouya in a free form conversation around topics such as Physics, world currencies, crypto currencies and a decentralized banking system and an idea of world UBI.   Emaad is an Astrophysicist with a passion for technology   Emaad's Social:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/parachaexplores/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/parachuchutrain LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emaadparacha/   Pouya's Social: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/   Episode Transcript:----more----   SUMMARY KEYWORDS currency, layover, canada, people, country, places, digital currencies, saskatchewan, money, picture, ubi, talking, notes, winnipeg, toronto, cryptocurrency, world, research, cryptocurrencies, thought SPEAKERS Pouya LJ, Emaad   Pouya LJ  00:17 Hey, man, how's it going? Good,   Emaad  00:19 man, how are you?   Pouya LJ  00:20 Pretty good, pretty good. We're actually talking off off camera and not camera, but I'm recording about some stuff that is going on with you and your life. And I thought, you know what, it's actually quite interesting. Let's bring it in. Let's bring it in there according. Okay, so for sure. So let's, let's circle back to five minutes before our conversation go to. So you were telling me that you started a massive program? And you were telling the story of how that that happened?   Emaad  00:46 Yeah, for sure. So well, I was in touch with one of my professors, ever since I gave my final for that course, which I, if you remember, I was with you. Yeah. I was taking it with you last year in like, April. And I spoke to the professor and he was interested. And he actually followed up on email as well. And he's like, oh, like, you know, would you be interested in doing research, or a few other courses on side, and I think I discussed that with you as well, last time. Yes. Because it's always a good idea to take some courses, take some courses even after you graduate, because they're gonna help you with, they're gonna help you with your graduate applications. If you have a gap here, you can take one or two courses, put them on your transcript, and that's going to be helpful for you. So I didn't take that route. But I spoke to the professor, I met with him a lot, I read on his research, etc. And eventually, around November, that's when the time came to apply. So I went ahead and applied got a bunch of references. And all I had to do was wait pretty much until March, when I got my when I got my admission. And when I got my, I guess offer from University of Toronto. So right now it's a master's in physics that I'm doing at the University of Toronto. And what I'll be researching on is with Professor Barth, Netherfield, who is a pretty well known Canadian astronomer. And what he does in his lab, and the cool thing is he actually has his own lab. So it's a whole building that's dedicated for him. It's not an office, it's not a room, it's not a lab space. It's a whole building at the University of Toronto, um, I think it's a two storey building, but his his, so at the ground floor is sort of a lab or a huge space lab space. And then there's, there's computers and stuff upstairs. And what he does is he creates telescopes that are as they're trying to be as effective as Hubble. But at a cheaper cost. That's his ultimate goal to create accessible telescopes, accessible space telescopes. And then what he does is he launches them to space on balloons. So he goes to Antarctica, Sudbury or Timmins, Ontario. There's also New Zealand, where he goes, and then he launches them into space. He's trying to be as close to the north and south poles as possible. And what he aims to do is he aims to do similar research that can be done with Hubble, but at a much lesser cost, because you're doing balloon based astronomy. So, you know, you don't have to pay for thousands and thousands of tons of jet fuel to get the telescope up, like Hubble and maintain it with the International Space Station.   Pouya LJ  03:41 Yeah, well, that's, that's super interesting. And so what what got you? I mean, I know you wanted to do some sort of grad school program, but what got you to this specific program? What happened? I will   Emaad  03:55 be honest, I will be 100% honest, I wasn't really planning. I never thought that it would that I would be doing this last year. Especially when we were finishing our undergrad degree. I Well, I was finishing my undergrad degree and you're about to finish. We were taking the courses then. Yeah. And when I finished my last final, I think it was my second last final with you.   Pouya LJ  04:18 Yeah, sorry. My bad.   Emaad  04:19 Yeah, I thought you know what this is it. Like, I'm never gonna touch physics ever again. If you remember correctly, that week was probably the toughest week of our lives.   Pouya LJ  04:30 I I remember,   Emaad  04:33 there was classical mechanics. At at, at what time it was I think 9am 9am to 12pm. And then the next day we had electro mag. electromagnetism. Yeah. From 9am to 10 9am to 12pm. And then we had a one day break. Yeah, and we had general relativity.   Pouya LJ  04:55 Yeah, not not easy courses. Yeah,   Emaad  04:56 not even courses at all. Again from 9am to 12pm. And I honestly thought, you know what this is it like I'm done with everything related to physics. Yeah. And I wanted to, and then I worked in the cloud computing side of things. So I worked for a company called about extreme. And what I did with them was I helped consult for cloud based solutions on Microsoft Azure. And I helped build them as well. So I helped build chatbots, knowledge mining applications, more so towards the AI, more, so the applications that, that use AI, or more specifically Microsoft's own cognitive toolkit. But I was hoping to go more into that field. And I did look into some masters. But to be frank, I didn't have that much guidance. At that time with me, I didn't know which one to go for which one would be best. And I accidentally applied for a research based one. And the problem with that is that you need to have, it's very helpful to have a computer science background, if you want to go into a research based computer science degree. Yeah, that was sort of my mistake. But I did apply for a master's in physics as well. And I thought about it, I thought about whether it's a good idea to do it or not. And it is a one year program. And if I still want to apply for other graduate degrees in computer science, or data science, or artificial intelligence related fields, I can still do that, while I'm finishing up a Master's. So if I'm going to start next year, if I'll have to start a master's in computer science, or data science or something, next year for that might as well get a Master's, get another masters. Over with it, this is not gonna hurt. And it's a research based Master's. So the coolest thing about research based Master's is, most in most universities, in Canada, they pay you to do it, you're not paying anything out of your pocket, your tuition is covered. And on top of that, you're getting money for being a TA you're getting money for being a research assistant, and you're just getting grants. So that's one of the best things about about research based degrees. And this is applicable everywhere, around Canada, at least for whatever research base degree you have, whether it's a PhD or masters, you're going to be getting funding for it may not be obviously as much as you would get if you were doing the job or whatever. But I mean, look on the bright side, you're getting a degree out of it.   Pouya LJ  07:32 No, of course, that makes a lot of sense. Wow, that's a cool, cool, cool story, because we've been in contact through, you know, text messages and whatnot, but we haven't talked for probably over a year now. Yeah, or so. And I think   Emaad  07:49 some more comprehensive talk.   Pouya LJ  07:51 Yeah, like, exactly like catching up and stuff anyways. So. So it was it was a it was a shock to me, because I thought you're you're working for that company, that you were talking about classes. But   Emaad  08:04 the funny thing is, I actually might still be, I'm still debating on whether I should keep it part time or not. Because because of two main reasons. One, it's always important to get work experience. And even though this summer was kind of late for them, because of COVID. So there weren't that many projects coming in. Because our our main clients, the company has been clients are cities and governments in the United States, city government, state governments in the United States. So they've been more focused on COVID binding COVID. And they're less inclined on doing the projects that we've had in pipeline, I see. But now new things are coming up. And it's always exciting to work on these projects. That's that's one main issue. One mean, that's one main reason because there are upcoming projects. And the second thing is to further enhance my own learning. There's new things again, coming up. within Microsoft, Microsoft is releasing new products. And technology is a field where if you're not on top of it, you're gonna fall off the ladder very fast. So it's always better to be on top of it know your stuff. They still pay, they still help with certifications, the company helps it certification. So it's always better to get new certifications, because they also expired. Microsoft certifications expire every two years. So it's always good to have certification stay on top of things so that maybe when the Masters is over, if I don't want to pursue physics, then there's always this option of this option of cloud computing and AI.   Pouya LJ  09:44 No, that's true. That makes a lot of sense under what's good thinking. Thanks. No, no, that's true. Anyways, so we also had something else in actually we had entirely something else in mind to talk about which is fun. It's a, it's fun to talk about different stuff, too. You have some interesting thing going on which you actually got featured on a CBC article, I believe, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. So you like travel? I think a lot of people do. And you travel, you go round, you get their currency. And, you know, like, on the currency, there's typically a picture of something, your monument, a lot of times a monument and you go there with the currency and you take a picture, can you do you want to explain it better than I   Emaad  10:32 did? what you're doing, for sure. So a lot of a lot of listeners would probably know that. What a lot of a lot of different banknotes and a lot of coins, they occasionally have places on them. And that's representative of the country's identity. So if you look at the United States dollars, they'll have different government buildings on them. The five has Lincoln lincoln memorial in DC, the 10 has the US Treasury 20 has White House 50 has the Capitol building, and then 100 has the Independence Hall in Philadelphia. And you know, that's the same for a lot of other countries as well, they occasionally put a place in the country, on their banknotes just as a representative of their own identity representative of their own culture. And what I've been doing, this is a project actually started about, well, it's going to be it's going to be nearly five years, about five years back. And what I wanted to do was I wanted to travel to different places, would that would currencies of those places. So it could be where I'm from, I'm from Pakistan, so I could go, I could go there for Canada, US and other places as well, because a lot of currencies have places on them. So I made a plan to go to those places, travel to those exact spots that are on the currencies of those countries, and then take pictures over there. And it's been five years, I think it's I've taken more than 35 pictures more than 35 at least. And over the course of Yeah, over the course of five years in six countries. If I if my math is not mistaken.   Pouya LJ  12:23 I think you got it. You got it nailed down. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. So what inspired you to do that?   Emaad  12:32 That's, that's always a funny question. Because a lot of people ask that. Yeah. And I feel like part of me feels like, should I just make something up? That sound cool, because, honestly, speaking, there's nothing cool about the inspiration. All I know is like back in, I think five years ago, around November 2015. That's when I went to this place called mind Jotaro, which is in Pakistan. It's, it was part it was ruins from the Indus Valley civilisation, which is one of the three oldest civilizations in the world. Apart from the Egyptian, and I think the Mesopotamian. So that was actually based in around Pakistan, and there's a very big river in Pakistan called the Indus River was based around that. And I went there, and they remember, when I was growing up, I always saw the specific picture in my textbooks in school, and also on the notes. And I always thought about, you know, what a cool place that is, it's basically ruins 5000 year old ruins, or, and, you know, I want to go there and travel and see and see those ruins. And I always saw them on the back of the notes. So when I went there, I was finally able to go there on a family trip. I went there, and I asked the tour guide, I had an old 20 rupee note, which actually has its picture on it. And I went to, I went to the tour guide, and I was like, Hey, where was this picture taken? He took me to the exact spot. And I took a picture of it. And then what I did was, I put it up not just on Facebook and stuff, but also on Reddit. Because I thought this is something pretty cool. People would appreciate it. And it people did. People liked it a lot. I was received very well. And I thought, you know what, this is probably a really good excuse to travel to different places in Pakistan, at least at that time. And that time, I was just thinking of bugs. So I thought you know what, I should maybe do this. In Pakistan, I get a really good excuse to travel to different places, and the pictures would come out pretty nice. So that's sort of where it started. I've always thought about you know, I should make a cool story. I should just make it up and then just put that version out there but the origins aren't that amazing. No, no, look, it's actually pretty.   Pouya LJ  15:02 I don't know what you're talking about. It's actually pretty good. It's a very green coming about at a younger age. When you thought about this, it's actually I think, a very cool story on its own and beyond that, I think nothing, nothing beats the order, the honesty, the the originality and the truth and honesty of the story. Yeah, as boring as it sounds, I think. Yeah, back that is orange, that, first of all, is original. So it's not somebody else's thought, or somebody else might have thought it. But on the other hand, because it's truthful, it's genuine. I think that has a lot of value to it personally, that's it doesn't have to be extra sexy actually, now not to get to cultural issues. But maybe that's that's one of the problems with our culture, especially the online culture these days, because everybody wants to make everything extra sexy. And that's it. Yeah. Sometimes publicity is actually the sexy part.   Emaad  16:01 That is very true. Yeah. Instead of you know, making up something big. And in the story that could have lifted up so many holes and stuff like that. It's always better to just stay simple.   Pouya LJ  16:10 Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely loved it. And don't don't sell it short. It is more interesting than you think it is. Okay, so that's cool. Cool story. Now, that gets us to currencies. So I know you have interest in technology. We actually talked about it today. And there is a degree of Okay, so that those are like government backed currencies. Now, obviously, those are the paper ones. All, I mean, we always were backed by those, but we also are removing them from our day to day interactions more and more. Yeah, as you progress towards credit cards, or debit cards are basically becoming electronic, which loses a little bit of touch. So I think you're bringing out a little bit on the stalls, you're there to, to the to the people who have forgotten what their dollars or whatever currencies look like. Yeah,   Emaad  17:07 you know, there's a funny thing about that. I was I was meeting up with a friend of mine, a few days back. And we were speaking about this project and stuff because I met him after a long while. And he, he was telling me, well, I said he's actually from China. So I said, oh, maybe I should go to China next and, and take take pictures of Chinese currency. Yeah. And he laughed about it. He's like, good luck finding one. Oh, because China has basically moved on to digital currency they have I think WeChat and Ali pay. I think those are the names if I'm correct. But what they do is they it's all digital payments, they have QR codes, they just scan there, they just scan those QR codes so they can pay whatever they whatever amount they need to pay. And, you know, if I'm paying money to you, if I'm giving money to you, or anything that's over V chat, as well. And it's such a streamlined system that they've made, that they no longer have to use paper currency at all. So he was laughing about that. And that resonates with what you said, because so many people are just digital, they're into digital banking, there's no more paper currency anymore. There's no more paper currency. Because I mean, why carry it around? Why case so much of it around in your wallet, when you can just put one card? And that accesses all your money at once.   Pouya LJ  18:29 Right? Yeah, no, that's true. And it makes a lot of sense. But but but you're adding that value on a artistic and social level I suppose. To to your work, which is, which is very interesting. Do you have you have what are the next plans? Do you have any any plans? Now? Like concrete plans to go next country or city or   Emaad  18:49 whatever? I mean, how can you make it How can anyone make any concrete plan?   Pouya LJ  18:54 Well, actually, that's true. That was a stupid question. Over there, I totally forgot.   Emaad  19:00 It's a very tough time to create concrete plans. I mean, I've done a country's I've completed our Pakistan, my home country, the EU, the US, Panama, Canada, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates. And Funny enough, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. I've only done a couple of their notes, not all of them. And that was because I was only there for a very short time. I think I was in UAE for about like 15 hours. And I was in Oman for about like 10 hours. Was that a layover? So that those are layover? Yeah. So what I've been doing is I occasionally travel between Canada and Pakistan often. If I'm if I want to go back home, meet family etc. And what I've always been trying to do is trying to find cool layovers. So usually I fly through the Middle East. And that's that sort of that sort of normal, because there's lots of airlines that connect through the Middle East, and or it through Turkey or through other countries or through Europe. So what I try to do is I try to find a different layover, where I can not only visit a new countries airport, but also stay there for like 1015 hours. A lot of airlines will offer is they offered like, two three hour connection. And then they also offer a 15 hour connection. And usually, the 15 hour connection is much cheaper, because so many people are just hoping to get to the airport, stay there for one hour and then get on their next flight angle. But instead, what I try to do is I try to find like a 15 hour layover or a 20 hour layover, so I can actually see the country I can go out of the airport, get an excuse to see. Yeah, see places. And along with that, what I do is then I exchange some exchange some money to get their own currency. I'd well I do research before to see which notes should would make sense. And then what I do is I I try to see which notes would make sense which notes are within reach of where I am. And then I get those notes from a currency exchange at the airport. And then I just tried to go to those places. And that's sort of how I've done it pretty much for most of us. That's how much that's how I've been doing it recently. With the layovers, I've also done Canada. There's a bunch of places within Canada. Sorry, before you   Pouya LJ  21:32 go ahead, I have to add something. For those people who complain about the boringness of layovers, get creative people. This is how you how you make it worth your while I   Emaad  21:42 continue. That is That is very true. I mean, I I love layovers, because an excuse to you know, go around, go travel. Yeah, for sure. I know a lot of people for for a lot of people. I mean, I'll make sense. Yeah, maybe they're in a hurry to get back or get somewhere or something. And they just here to airports. It could be a variety of reasons, or they're tired. But I personally believe that if there's a layover, I should spend it. Traveling or, you know, looking at different things make the most of it. This summer, I was going to travel via Turkey, via Turkish Airlines. And I had the option of a five hour layover in Istanbul, or a 25 hour layover. So I opted for the 25 hour layover, which is actually much cheaper, of course. So I both saved money. And I talked to the airline. And this is something cool. A lot of airlines will do this for you. They will give you a hotel room, and they'll cover your visa costs. They'll cover your visit transit visa costs, as well free of cost. Turkish Airlines was doing that Turkish Airlines gave a free hotel. Free hotel for one night, which is very cool. I mean, I just I just go there and they will take me to the hotel. They'll give me a free hotel. And then I can just go and visit. I did this with Emirates as well. When I was traveling with Emirates, I had a 15 or 16 hour layover in Dubai. And all I had to do was just apply online, it takes five seconds. And when I get to the airport, they give me they give me a hotel voucher, and food voucher, and a couple of food vouchers. So my food was covered. They gave me a free hotel. And they gave me they transported me from the hotel to the airport and the airport and airport to the hotel. And this is all for free. And it's not something you need business class for is an economy class ticket. Right?   Pouya LJ  23:51 Yeah, you were you were going on to sorry, it took you off a tangent, but you were sorry. Originally you were going off to talk about your experience in Canada on what you did.   Emaad  24:00 Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean for Canada, the current notes are not super indicative of different places in Canada. Number of the $5 note, which you might have seen has space on the back has international has actually the Canadarm that is something that can be made it on the International Space Station. It has that so I think that's kind of tough. The $10 note has Jasper National Park that one I've actually done. I did that last year. I did a train going through Jasper National Park in Alberta. The $20 note has a memorial. It's still a place it's still a building but that memorial is actually in France, interestingly enough, and then the 50 and 100 don't really have any specific places on them. So what I've instead been doing is I've looked at older nodes in Canada. So there's the old one $1 old $1 notes old hundred dollar notes, a lot of old $1 notes are in Ottawa, they have a lot of government buildings on them. And the old hundred dollar note was in Lunenburg, which is in Nova Scotia, so I went there last winter, just on a road trip to take a picture of it there. Now, there's another one that I took, which is the newest note for of Canada, which is the new $10 note. And I went to Winnipeg, just for a two day trip, I was able to find a really cheap flight out of Hamilton, Hamilton to Winnipeg at fault places. I was able to find a really cheap flight. So I went on a weekend trip over there. And that is the one when you started the call when you started this podcast. That's the one that you were mentioning the that was the one that was featured on CBC. Nice. Um, so CBC took note of that, and they said, oh, wow, someone came to visit Winnipeg from Toronto to take a picture. This is something like that. And they should feature   Pouya LJ  26:06 Yeah, a little bit of caveat for anybody who knows anything about geography of Canada and especially in the wintertime. I don't know when you went there was it winter or I think it was winter because I can see some snow there or there's some snow anyways. So point being it like you from Nova Scotia. You know, the Winnebago, they have nothing in common like there's like to go out of your way to go there. It's not like you're having a layover in Istanbul or Dubai or something. It's a different game. ballgame. So just I have to add that caveat for people who are not   Emaad  26:41 Yeah. And they're and they're far like,   Pouya LJ  26:43 yeah, now that's what I mean.   Emaad  26:45 The province where Toronto is, it's Ontario, and Winnipeg is in Manitoba. And they're both bordering each other. But the problem The biggest problem is trying to so far south in Canada, as opposed to other places in in Canada, like Winnipeg, in Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver. They're very far up north. Toronto is very far south. Yeah, it was a two hour flight just to win it back itself. Which is mind blowing. Because you're going north, you're going north, Northwest a lot. Yeah. But it was pretty cool. It was a fun trip. My flight got canceled on the way back, which is very fun as well. Oh. But that gave me more excuses. You know, travel, pay my friend. We decided to go to CES Saskatchewan, just to the border of it. And Funny enough, now that I'm remembering it. Well, we decided to do was we had a rental car. So we just extended one more day. And he said, You know what? It's a four hour drive to Saskatchewan, which going back to your Canadian geography has nothing in it. There's nothing in there. It's a whole province with nothing in it. Yeah, it's it's just in the middle of Canada. It's just land. There's nothing wrong. I don't think anyone even lives there. And it's just a four hour drive just to the border of it and the border of it. Believe it or not, there was nothing there. It was just a sign that said Welcome to Saskatchewan. So we took a picture with it just to prove that we have been here. And then we went on a four hour trip back to Winnipeg. And on that four hour trip back to Winnipeg, my friend drove and I decided to I decided to finish my application for my physics Master's. And I submitted it that night while I was somewhere on the road between Saskatchewan in Winnipeg.   Pouya LJ  28:38 Yeah, that's that's, that's pretty cool. And I'm actually trying to figure out how much the province like the population of the province, but for some reason I'm failing. I think it's I don't know if it's the city of population.   Emaad  28:54 No, there's a city called Saskatoon. And there's two major cities and ask a tune in Regina. Yeah, but the population of Saskatchewan. I find, I think it's 1 million.   Pouya LJ  29:07 Yeah, it's a gigantic province, with 1 million population.   Emaad  29:12 I think it's the I don't know if it's the biggest.   Pouya LJ  29:16 No, it's not the biggest, like on the map is definitely smaller than Ontario, Quebec, even British Columbia, but it's close enough to Alberta maybe a little bit smaller than Alberta. But point being it's still a lot of land there. And the entire population is like 1,000,001.1. Just Just to, you know, confirm your   Emaad  29:40 identity is there's one there's 1.86. So basically two people per kilometer squared. Yes, a few. If you create a box that is a kilometer wide and kilometer, that is just to each each side of the box is a kilometre, which is a very big number. There's only two people who live in there.   Pouya LJ  30:07 Yeah, that's a very big house for you.   Emaad  30:11 And versus Ontario, if I'm correct, the density of Ontario is 15 people per kilometer squared. Right? So that's, that's the key difference.   Pouya LJ  30:23 Yeah, that's like, so unfolds almost. Yeah. I'm done by five anyways. Um, yeah, what? Let's, let's move on a little bit, because we want to talk about we got to, you know, more computerized digital currencies, not necessarily digital currencies in terms of cryptocurrency, which we'll get to but, um, so we talked, we talked about technology coming into disrupting really anything, everything, and currency being one of them. for for for many reasons, why, now that that naturally brings us also to the realm of cryptocurrency, which, well, what are you going to do? cryptocurrencies don't have monuments on them printed, that they don't print? But joke aside? What are your thoughts on the digitization of currency and maybe even you know, distributed currencies such as cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin, what have you? Do? Do you have any interest in them? Do you read about them?   Emaad  31:31 Yeah, I do. I do a lot. And I, I think it's very interesting, not just from an investing perspective, but from a practical perspective.   Pouya LJ  31:40 Well, investment can be practical if you do it right.   Emaad  31:42 Investing can be practical, but it comes with its own caveats, especially investing in cryptocurrency, it's a very risky thing to do. Sure. And you could, you could probably just lose a lot of your money. If you invest, without thinking or without, you know, without the right tools without the right resources. If you do that, then you can lose a lot of money in crypto, but I was talking more so the practicality on the practical side of things on the technology behind it. how they've made something open source, and decentralized. They've made something which no one can touch and chain, no one person can go in and touch and change. Its cryptocurrency and Bitcoin and those things, they they're the Ledger's. They're, their records, they're everything, they, they stay with the people. There's no one person who controls everything. And I think that's that's a beautiful aspect of the digital currency. Because its power comes in its numbers. If a lot of people use Bitcoin, then it's more strong. There's more, I guess records, there's more copies of everything. And that technology can then be applied to so many different things that can be applied to contracts. blockchain can be applied to supply chain logistics, to ensure nothing has changed to ensure there's to ensure the right tracing of materials that people are getting food, and so many different things. But just from a currency standpoint, this is a very tough debate. Because a lot of countries a lot of banks are against this because this is against what they've been doing throughout throughout, I guess, throughout the startup humanity, or throughout the start of banking, at least because the main essence of a bank and a central bank is in the name. It's centralized. Yeah. And if you decentralize parents, if you decentralize money, if you decentralize your own local currency, then how are you going to achieve anything? In terms of you know, regulating power, regulating finances, making sure money doesn't go into the wrong hands. Even the wrong may be a subjective word. But there's so many different things that come in with it, that I personally believe it would be a bit tough to move to it all together. In my opinion,   Pouya LJ  34:12 by altogether You mean like removing the central banks from the central, the regular currencies of countries? Yeah. And making it the dominant. Okay.   Emaad  34:20 Yes. But with that, I also think it is hard for them, the centralized banks to completely remove cryptocurrencies. I mean, a lot of a bunch of countries have made it illegal to have them. I don't know which countries are but I remember there were a bunch of countries that said it's illegal to trade it or have it even. But they're not going anywhere, either. Because they're a force to be reckoned with. They're they're not they're not just something small with banks and say, Oh, that's illegal. Get rid of them. You know, Pete, they're, like I said before, their strength comes in how many people hold it, and I think that's going to be interesting. Day by day. I was talking to a friend of mine who wanted to transfer money from, I think it was from the EU or not from. Yeah, it was from Pakistan to the US. And she was asking me, what's the best way to do it. And whether she should wire transferred, whether she should Western Union it or something else. And I looked at the fees and wire transfer fees were more than 1500. dollars, she would have to pay Western Union fees were around that probably even higher, that she'll have to pay. And that's a huge chunk of your money that they're taking. Yeah. But I suggested, oh, why don't you just buy crypto over there? over the counter crypto, which is you're just paying someone money, and they transfer cryptocurrency to your wallet. And then you just transfer that crypto to whoever you need to send it to in the US. And that takes wire transfers can take two weeks, Western Union can take like at least a day or two that can take like five seconds, maybe a bit more obviously be based on based on how much you pay for the gas, etc. so many different things. But it's still less than less than a day, you can get money from here to there. And then they can just sell it over the counter or cash it out. Or they can do whatever they want. And that's how you can just easily transfer money using crypto as well. So I think it is a force to be reckoned with, what banks would need to do is figure out what's the middle ground here? How can they eat, right? incorporate that into their own systems into their own, into their own platforms? Because Funny enough, the weakest. The point, the place where digital currencies are weak, is the fact that some people can't trust them because they're decentralized. So they're like, oh, then who's going to be taking who's going to be, you know, handling it, who's going to be in charge of dispersing it and stuff. So there's no trust there. But on the other hand, people have started losing trust onto central banks themselves. Because they don't make the best policies. So it's sometimes it's better to have something decentralized.   Pouya LJ  37:29 Yeah, that does make sense. So there is definitely I mean, as with a lot of things, there's there are weaknesses and strengths. And obviously, one of the strength of cryptocurrencies, is mobility of it, etc. Also, just just to close that loop of legality, so the three countries that are definitely illegal, and there's like, there are some countries that have greater areas, but in Algeria, Egypt and Morocco is outright illegal, just for closing that loop. And there's a lot of other countries that are like, somewhere in between. Yeah, meaning some restrictions. But generally speaking, it's legal, etc. So we can put this into notes. And,   Emaad  38:19 yeah, for sure. So now there is something interesting that I, that I came across, and I worked with, I worked briefly with, with the team behind it. There's something called UBI. This is just very generic. There's something called UBI, universal basic income. Yeah, and this is something that has been debated in a lot of countries attempted in a lot of countries and a bunch of places at least, I think Germany is trying that out right now. And just giving universal basic income to some of its citizens.   Pouya LJ  38:54 Andrew Yang is making a lot of noise,   Emaad  38:56 Yang was making that the biggest point of his presidency, there were a couple of places I think in Canada that tried it, if I'm if I'm not wrong, a while back. And there's I can't get much into the details of it. But there is a there is a there's a consortium that is actually based in Canada, that is trying to get together a lot of UBI experts from around the world and work towards creating a global UBI which is going to be a key Their aim is that it's adopted throughout the world. And everyone gets a certain UBI per month, per day, per hour per second. I mean, there's going to be one amount per month, but then that's going to be per week and then you get that every second of your existence. And that's going to be actually I think one of the smartest ways to go about it would probably be on blog. And that's something that that I came across. And I briefly work with them on some of their some and some of the technical side of their project. And that's something that's very cool because now it's using blockchain using using utilizing blockchain, which is, again, the technology that's been brought forward by these digital currencies. And that's where the practicality thing comes in. But now they're putting it into a very large scale where they're asking for global adoption and global adoption for it. which hopefully would replace the need for conventional currency, and create a global system where everyone can earn a basic income to live, essentially, to at least cover where they're living to cover their food to cover their health related things. Which is, I believe it should be right for everyone. Everyone should be able to do that.   Pouya LJ  41:04 Yeah. So now the natural question, especially for universal UBI. Being while UBI has universal and but my point is being like around the world, not just containing a country. An actual question is cost of living and the value of currency, etc. is completely diff No, assuming we still trading regular currencies, not just the crypto ones, that there is a degree of asymmetry here that so is the proposal of this team. By the way, can you can you mention them by name?   Emaad  41:41 I don't know if that's? I mean, the name is global UPI.   Pouya LJ  41:44 Oh, you mentioned it? Okay. Yeah. Anyways, so is the proposal a fixed amount for every single person on the planet? Or is it different, depending on assessment of what are your cost of living? Where you live? by country, by city by province by? I don't know, what have you? Is there a distinction? Or it's just a fixed amount?   Emaad  42:09 See, that's the the project is I believe in preliminary phases, or I'm not 100% sure where they are, and whether they're in testing or whether they're sort of just beginning to research on it. And I frankly, do not know the answer to this.   Pouya LJ  42:27 Do you have Do you have your own thoughts on the matter?   Emaad  42:30 And the thing is, if if it is a global currency, and if everyone is has sort of access to the same currency? Yeah, then there shouldn't really be a problem with cost of living?   Pouya LJ  42:46 Well, I think I think there will be still, what, two two folds for one fold. Is that, okay, if we only adopt, I would,   Emaad  42:53 my question is, why would something be why would like, let's go to the Big Mac index, which is something I promise economists use. If there's a Big Mac in the US for let's say, let's say the the UBI currency, the new currency for the world is world dollars. Sure. There's a Big Mac in the US, which costs one world dollar. The currency in Turkey is also world dollar. Why would the Big Mac there be less?   Pouya LJ  43:26 Yeah. Okay, that's so that's that's the first fold of the problem, though I was talking about. And that is, as if that's the, okay, if that's the dominant currency traded?   Emaad  43:39 Sure. Their goal is to have world adoption of this. Okay. So that   Pouya LJ  43:45 will solve   Emaad  43:46 the would give way to, yeah, it would give away. Well, digital and non digital banks, central banks would give weight, this currency to come in. And the main essence of this currency is to make sure that it's secure and no one person would be able to access everything and change everything. Does that compromise the security of it? Yeah. So if there is, again, like I said, if there's a Big Mac for one US dollar, one world dollar, then wouldn't have the same Big Mac, we won World dollar somewhere else, because there's no other currency to base it off of. Yeah. So where would the cost of living? How would the cost of living and stuff be compared?   Pouya LJ  44:32 Well, you when you're talking about stuff, like I don't know, franchises or something? Yes, you're absolutely right. That makes sense. But if you're talking about for example, cost of land. Well, that definitely certainly has differences as you do within a country. Let's take Canada for example. Obviously, the price of homes in the heart of Toronto is completely different than say Saskatoon, that was what we were talking about, right? So, so in that sense, I mean, you can argue that the cost of living within The cities also started within the country is also different, which is reasonable. That's   Emaad  45:05 that's based on demand. Exactly supply that's really based off of, I mean, what the currency is doing, but it's no normal. So there's more space here more people want to live here.   Pouya LJ  45:16 Absolutely, they're gonna be worth more. So the land was an example of a commodity or, or something that would have different values, depending on where you are in a country and more importantly, in a world, right, that has the certainly has different, different many things have different values in different places in the world. And that alone can cost per debate, the cost of living by a lot, depending on which part of the world you're living, the basic cost of living, let's say, shelter, basic food, water, clean water, and   Emaad  45:51 I get what I get the question that you're I get what you're saying. And I agree that other things could be worth more other things could be worth less. And you're right, there's places in Canada right now, up very north, where food is so expensive. Exactly. Because they have to transport it over there and get it over there. So the cost of living over there is high. Yes, I agree with you. I agree with what you're saying that. Also living can be different because of these reasons. But the thing is that the UBI that I mentioned, sure, it doesn't aim to fully cover everything in your life. Yeah, of course. Because if it does that, then yeah, there's no motivation to do anything, even though that's a completely different debate with UBI motivation. But it's more so meant as a cushion for you. In some places, I mean, you could move to Saskatchewan. And you may be able to live comfortably on a UBI. Yeah, there's rent, there may be cheap food, there may be cheap. I mean, they're farmers, a lot of farms over there, but everything maybe cheap over there. So you might save money with the UBI. But where it says if you're in Toronto, then if you're getting a certain UBI, you may not be able to cover all your expenses with a UBI, you might still have to work. But I guess that's just the that's that's how this is. That's how everything should be. Because I mean, if if you're going somewhere else, if you're going somewhere where there's a very, there's very low demand for something and things should be cheaper. Yeah, if you're going somewhere where there's more demand and things would ideally be more expensive. That's the main essence of sort of a capitalist environment. Yeah, more equals more money.   Pouya LJ  47:44 No, absolutely. That That doesn't make sense. My concern was, and you're right, within a country, etc. So the difference that I was imagining is that the Delta within a country is much more marginal than a Delta currently, at least in the in the whole world. Like, if you give the highest value and the lowest value cost of living in different parts of the world, the delta is much larger than within one country. Okay, that actually to be argued, depending on the country you pick, but yeah, but for most of the world, at least. But I suppose if you and part of that comes from the the big Delta around the whole world, perhaps comes from the fact that the currencies have different values, maybe if you actually do a flatten out everything, and everybody adopts a common currency, at least as a dominant chords, that the trade end, I mean, it doesn't mean that the rest of the currencies will be eliminated completely, but they're not the main one at least, then maybe there's Yeah, maybe there's a degree of flattening this. This Delta make it a little bit smaller. That could be argued, I don't know. But that was Yeah, I'm just trying to paint a picture of what I was   Emaad  49:00 imagining. No, yeah, I understand. I understand what you're saying. But like I said, it's not something that is meant to replace everything in your life, and give you access to everything you want. Because that's gonna lead into way many more problems, because then everyone has access to whatever they want, for sure. But it's more so a cushion for you to at least live your life, to not starve on the streets do not to have your basic necessities at least covered wherever you are, you can be in Toronto, you could be wherever. And obviously, for the economic system to grow, people would still need to work because to create a living they would need there wouldn't be innovation around the world. And none of that is in danger. Because of UBI   Pouya LJ  49:45 Yeah, no, no, that makes sense. I mean, obviously these topics especially the UBI and cryptocurrency have endless spanned, and we can spend hours and hours talking about them which we may at some point, but We've come we've come a long way. I think all we've done almost one hour right now. So, yeah, I think it's a good place to, you know, close the loop on everything do you have? Do you have anything you want to add to summarize? No,   Emaad  50:16 not so much. I mean, I agree. This is a good, some good point. Where to where to pause it. And I'm sure there's going to be way many more discussions about UBI. And I'd love to, you know, have more. You, of course, as I as I research more on   Pouya LJ  50:32 it, exactly how I think about it. Now, I think it's gonna be really good. These discussions are obviously always fun to have and a lot of times constructive helpful. And yeah, I enjoy talking.   Emaad  50:47 Yeah. And yeah, that's really good. So it was a great, it was a great time discussing all these cool things.   Pouya LJ  50:53 Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. Okay, so we'll put your information in the show notes, too. But do you want to tell people where they can find you online?   Emaad  51:04 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm, you can find me on Instagram, which is pr racha explores. That's pa ra, ch, e XP l or Yes. Or you can also find me on LinkedIn, which is e mod beracha. That is e m, a D. and last name is parotta. Pa ra ch a, if you want to talk about anything regarding the currency project, which is going to be more on my Instagram, or more about physics, or UBI, or anything like that, and I'd love to talk more.   Pouya LJ  51:41 Yeah, that's awesome. As I mentioned, obviously, we're going to put this in the show notes, so anybody who didn't get that they can go and look it up there. Thanks again, Bob. I was really fun talking to you Jason

Mike Savage was convicted of 89 counts of money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud and sentenced to 17 and a half years in federal prison. He's a former radio personality, television news anchor, and has been described as a criminal mastermind. These days he's an adjunct professor teaching Bible Theology and Psychology, and co-hosts A Savage Perspective podcast with his wife Cynthia, Mike authored the book, A Prisoner's Perspective: Redemption of a Criminal Mastermind.   Website: https://www.mikesavagebooks.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mikesavagebooks/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mcsavage89/Twitter: https://twitter.com/mikesav78418   (Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.) Emily OlsenWherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen. Rodney Olsen  Welcome to Bleeding Daylight. Just a quick reminder that you can find Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Today’s guest was convicted of 89 counts of money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud and sentenced to 17 and a half years in federal prison. His remarkable story of life transformation and a wife who stood by him throughout everything is inspiring. Mike Savage was jailed for his beliefs. His beliefs were that he could get away with his crimes without getting caught. He's a former radio personality, television news anchor, and has been described as a criminal mastermind. These days he's an adjunct professor teaching Bible Theology and Psychology, and co hosts A Savage Perspective podcast with his wife Cynthia, Mike authored the book, A Prisoner's Perspective: Redemption of a Criminal Mastermind. Today, we get to explore his colorful life on Bleeding Daylight. Mike, thank you so much for your time. Mike Savage  Well, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Rodney Olsen  I know that the question on everyone's mind is what did he do to get sent to prison? Tell me about the days before you were caught. Mike Savage  The best way to put it I try not to go into too much detail for two reasons. One, I don't want to glorify my sin and second, I don't want to give anybody any ideas of what to do to make extra money. I was a radio talk show host I was making very little money doing that in the 1980s when I was approached to do some work overseas which had to do with transferring large sums of money. It could be cash, sometimes other types of wire transfers, that sort of thing. Well, I made a little money to begin with and then suddenly discovered, you know, there's a lot more that could be made. So I got involved with doing that and so it was international money laundering. And then, in the United States, there's two there were two forms of money laundering. One was just general money laundering, and the other was international money laundering. I was convicted of both 89 counts of money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud and so the sentence was 17 and a half years in federal prison. Rodney Olsen  And I'm wondering now, about those people who knew you at the time, I imagine they didn't even know that this was going on. So this would have been a real surprise, especially for those people who were used to listening to Mike on the radio. He's a good guy, and suddenly you sent off to prison. Mike Savage  Right? Well, no one knew what I was doing. My family didn't know the people that I was working with the time did not No, I had two lives. I had one the the family man, the working guy was working in Napa, California at the time on a radio station there. And no one had any idea. None whatsoever. I mean, I kept it totally away from them. The other side was the criminal side, which was an entirely as a Jekyll Hyde type of personality. The nice guy, the funny guy who was on the radio, the controversial guy on the radio suddenly became an entirely different person when it came to running a crime business and, and necessarily, so you can't be a nice guy when you're criminal, and being around other criminals. And so there was two different distinct Mike Savages at that time. Both liars, both cheating doing things that he shouldn't have been doing. I want to make this clear I accept responsibility for my crime I went to trial was proven guilty. I was guilty, I am guilty. I take responsibility. I don't want to downplay any of that, like, I was a nice guy to get caught up and stuff. That wasn't the case at all. I was not that people try to pay Oh, it wasn't a pretty nice guys. No, I was a liar. I was a liar. And I was really, really good at it. And until the Lord broke me down, I probably would have stayed on that path and ended up dead. But the amazing thing through all of this was that my wife, Cynthia, who had no idea what was going on, until the federal government, organized crime, Task Force, FBI, IRS, US Postal Service. Everybody came busting into our house, and she was six months pregnant at the time. And they took her away from it to reduce the stress. They told me that until you talk with us, we're not bringing her back. Well, they actually took her to breakfast, you know, they're being hard guys. And so my choice at that point was to I could have confessed and gotten much Last time, but instead I became the tough guy. And so this thing drew out and dragged out for over two years before we actually went to trial. Rodney Olsen  So that day, this is the time that your wife finds out of what's been going on, you say that you weren't prepared to admit it to the authorities who came busting down your door. What did you say to your wife? Mike Savage  I told her it was a mistake. They had the wrong person. I lied. I was a liar. I was unsaved. I was I was trying to cover my tracks trying to figure a way out of this and so I lied, and because she loves me so much, and she stayed with me through the entire incarceration. She's with me today in the other room, right? We're still together. And I got out in 2007. She loved me so much. She went along with with what I was saying she she would believe and that was it. It wasn't until much later that I would confess anything to her. That's after I'd been in prison for over two years. Rodney Olsen  So at that stage, she believes that an innocent man has been sent to prison. She has no idea at this point that you were absolutely guilty. Mike Savage  Yeah, that's right. And she was raising our children at the same time and sacrificing to come see me visit me in prison every other weekend. six hour drive each way six and a half hour drive from where she was living in the in the Napa area to Lompoc, California. So yeah, I was I was a rotten guy, truly a rotten guy. Rodney Olsen  And what did that do to the trust in your relationship? When finally you admitted that over those two years of getting to trial, and then a couple of years into the sentence, all these years of continuing that lie? And you suddenly say, Well, actually, I did it. What happened to the trust between the two of you? Mike Savage  It grew, it grew because she has always been trustworthy. To me and our relationship always been trustworthy, even though when I was trying to come up with reasons we should divorce While I was in prison, all this type of thing, she wouldn't have any of that at all. This is the the book honestly started out as an homage to her, and quickly morphed into oh my gosh, this is all about God. Only God could do this. Only God could bring a woman into my life before I got caught. Stay with me after I got caught through all the lies through all the stuff, stay faithful to me. And when I finally told her, she forgave me, she forgave me. Rodney of all of all the things I expected forgiveness was not one of them. But that was what came absolutely, totally, completely. And our relationship grew from from then on even further. If it could, I mean, it just it it mushroomed after that the idea of being able to just confess and say yeah, you know, look, I was I was bad. I got caught up and stuff. I had no business getting caught up in And I mean, the title of the book, the whole thing of the criminal mastermind is irony in the 1980s, and in the United States, they had this war on drugs and so forth. And I was convicted under drug statutes, even though drugs weren't part of the crime and every person that had more than one person working for them, was considered a criminal mastermind in the indictments. It was a it was like a template that was filled out if there was a kid on the street slinging drugs to and he had two or three people that work for him. He was a criminal mastermind it was the is the irony that everybody's a criminal mastermind at that particular time. I wasn't a criminal mastermind, I'd never been in trouble in my life. I just got greedy, and I fell for it and it was exactly the wrong thing to do. But it was a decision that I made willingly. I wasn't tricked, or duped into it. And then once I found out I was pretty good at it, then I expanded the enterprise and went from there. So that was, you know, that's just the way it is. I mean, I saw somebody say something about, you know, Mike never takes acceptance of response, but I did read the book, you know, I, I'm thinking I'm losing everything, including my wife and instead, God gave me the greatest gift, you know, eternal life and returned me to my wife. We've just continued to grow since then. Rodney Olsen  And I imagine that label of criminal mastermind is really a masterstroke by the police because as soon as you're labeled, that you're going into court and assumed to be guilty if you're being called at a criminal mastermind, and still, they have to prove the guilt and, and obviously, as you've said, that was there but that's a great way to put the jury on your side right from the start, Mike Savage  Right? This this type of crime will never have to we have to stand up to that stop. It'll never happen again. I mean, come on. I was before Bernie Madoff or any of these other people are doing anything and and it didn't stop or slow down. Anything people are going to send because they're centers, there's gonna be crime because there's criminals. You're not going to make an example. I mean, here in the US, and I'm not sure about Australia, we have the capital punishment or that sort of thing. But in the United States, certain states do. And there's even a federal law that allows under certain circumstances, but people are still killing people. Even though there's there's the capital punishment. So it speaks to the inherent evilness of man's heart. Mine in particular. I mean, it was a dark dark place, Rodney, it wasn't a again, I don't come across as Oh, I was a nice guy. I really was not a nice guy. There's a lot of things I wouldn't tell you about because I don't think the audience would be ready to hear that. When God reached down he had to come down a long way to grab hold of Mike Savage. Rodney Olsen  You said that you had to eventually admit your guilt to your wife. Was there a part of you that found it difficult to even admit that to yourself? Were you kidding yourself to some degree and thinking, well, this is all justified, I need to make a living and this is my way to do it? Or did you just know straight out, I'm absolutely guilty? Mike Savage  No, I lied to myself. I felt like I was caught up in something that I couldn't get out of. I'll be honest with you I prayed even when I was an unbeliever I remember praying the last couple of years before I got caught caught please get me out of this. This this is let me just get out of this. This is this is killing me this double life is I got to get out of this and the answer the prayer because I got I got arrested and put in prison. I was out of it. And I'm not making a joke there. I'm serious. I mean, that was that was an answered prayer. I see it now as an answered prayer. But at the time. My whole thought process was justification. I'm justifying this. This is what I do. If it was against the law, I would have been caught or I would know that it was against the law. All the justification in the world I would pour into my, but knowing deep down inside you know, that's a lie Mike. But going against that, no, no, no, I got to keep going. Gotta keep going. Gotta keep going. And I had people dependent on me, not just my family. But the crime people that I was they were dependent on me. So trying to stop wasn't really an option. I needed someone to help and God did help. I mean, there was that's a thorough cut when you go to prison. That's it. There's no coming back on this type of thing for me. I don't know what had been happened would have happened if I hadn't been saved in prison. I don't know what would have happened when I got out, or if I would have gotten out, you know, because it was just it was a dark, dark time where there's just no hope whatsoever of change. But initially, it was all justification. This is what I do. This is who I am. It's gonna be fine. I can handle this. All the lies you tell when you're trying to justify sin. Rodney Olsen  And as for the money that you are making, through your, your job as a criminal mastermind. All this money. How much did you make and how did you hide that away from the people that knew you? Mike Savage  in the 80s it really wasn't that much of a problem. Remember? There's no cell phones, there was no internet, the most advanced technology was faxing things from from one place to another. So moving money around was extremely easy transferring from one bank to a bank overseas or bank overseas to places in the United States. It wasn't a difficulty at all. I mean, that there weren't these limits on how much you can transfer now without reporting it to the Internal Revenue Service here in the US. So those laws and those things weren't in effect at that time. The amount that I was convicted of was $2 million, which back then was was quite, I mean, still quite a bit. Now. What am I saying? But I mean, back then it was even it was meant even more, but there was considerably more than that. That was moved around and that I got commissions on being able to do stuff. And the government traced virtually every penny of it and any property that we had that I had at the time, was seized and forfeited to the federal government. The banks overseas they talk about they have all the secrecy, you know, They rolled over instantly when the federal government asked them for the information. So they were able to track it, but it was they they got all the money that was left at the time of things that I hadn't bought or, or given to others or that sort of thing. It was it was millions of dollars. And it was it was very easy to do back. Rodney Olsen  You mentioned that you had an encounter with God whilst you were in prison, that he did answer the prayer that you prayed even before knowing if he was real or not and so often I find that that's the way that we pray for an answer, and we get the answer we didn't expect, but that is the answer that God brings. Mike Savage  Right. Rodney Olsen  How far into your jail term did that actually happen? Mike Savage  It was it was about two and a half years in. So the first I was first sent to the penitentiary in Lompoc, California. You know, it was classified as white collar criminal, all this kind of stuff, a civilian organized crime. They never proved any of that but I mean, they sent me to accidentally sent me to the penitentiary that they had misclassified my level of security supposed to be sent to a correctional institution which is a low, but I was sent to a very high level prison. So I was there for a short time till that got changed. And that I was transferred to the Federal Correctional Institution in Lompoc, which is right across the street from penitentiary. And I was assigned to the kitchen duty where I quickly ingratiated myself with some people there and began making alcohol for sale to the other prisoners. It's called pruno. And it was made with bread and yeast and sugar and I won't give the recipe out someone by trying it and going blind. But we would make that and so I had a little side hustle going on doing that I was also one of the guys making book, you know, for taking bets on football games and baseball games, basketball games, all that kind of stuff. So I fell right back into a criminal lifestyle. So I got into prison. So that was I was it was great. You know, it was where I got this. Now I can do this for the next you know, few years. But then about 18 months in I get transferred out of the kitchen where I was doing all this stuff to the chapels office the chaplains office and I became the lead chapel clerk. And I I didn't ask for the transfer obviously and and I went in and asked the chaplain, Why are you transferring me in here? Because I saw you on the on the compound he says, you know, Holy Spirit spoke to me about you and so I'm I wanted you to come work for me. And I said I look I don't know God I don't know any other stuff. You know, I've got time to do I'm not trying to sit around with a bunch of Bible thumpers or you know, Quran thumpers because like 13 different religious groups there you know from Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Wiccans, all these Catholics, everything that you can think of right? So I don't want to be around people. Come on. He says now just give it a try. So I'm there and I know you gave me the responsibility for being in service. And then after the services are over with making sure everything was straightened out, everything was sorted, everything's cleaned out, ready for the next group ready for whatever was going to be coming in. And so over a period of six months, I'm going to all these different services, right? And not just Protestant service, I'm going to all of them and thinking this is the worst job in the world. Everybody thinks they're right. Everybody's got away to God, and we got to do this. You got to do that. Come on, come on. So the thing that I hated most was going to Protestant services. Because there was always this altar call at the end, where you know, you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, come forward, say this prayer, you'll be saved and I'm like, okay, right. I'm sitting in the back. And it was it had been a particularly rugged week for me. I'd argued with Cynthia, I wanted to divorce or over the phone and so I want to divorce now you're not going to divorce me? She was she's just adamant, there's not gonna be a divorce. So I'm miserable. I've got, you know, a million years left on my sentence. I mean, this is 1990s I don't get out until 2007. And I'm thinking, you know, that's Buck Rogers time back since 2000. Oh, that's far, far away. And I'm miserable and depressed and angry because I can't make the pruno anymore. I'm upset about not being able to involve the gambling and do any of this stuff at all. And I sat through so many of these Protestant services, I probably could have given the sinner's prayer, even being an unbeliever. It's just and so this particular night, I'm angry, I'm depressed, frustrated, I'm sitting in the back waiting for these guys, just the volunteers that come in and, you know, volunteers before come in and see me and let me pray for you. They put their hands on, oh, God tells me you're not going to do any more of your sentence. You're going to go home soon. And you know, truly rockin it every single day of my sentence, so none of their prophesizing work but I didn't know at the time I was just irritated. Just Just a miserable person. As I'm sitting In the back and vice of rotten week, I said, You know what, God, I'll tell you what if you're real, if you really are real, and all this stuff I've been hearing for these months is true. Show me something. Just show me something. And the guy's going into the sinner's prayer at the same time, and I'm just seeing it together. Show me something. Because I don't. This is his last chance. Show me something. And Rodney, I started crying. I don't cry. I'm not a crier. Never been a crier. But I start crying not not like crying, but like, weeping. And all I can describe, and I don't expect everybody to go through this. I don't expect a lot of people necessarily gonna believe me when I say this, but suddenly it's like a synapse in my brain that had been dormant fired and all those sermons I sat through, and all those things teaching seminars that I sat through and all the stuff that I was so miserable having to do. I suddenly understood, I got it. I understood and I, and I believed. It made sense to me for some reason, while I'm weeping like a baby, this, I'm a big guy, I'm 6'3" at the time, I was like, 280, now I'm 220 Thank You, Jesus. But this big old guy weeping in the back, and actually believing for the first time, not only in God, that God loved me. And I just, that's how I that's how I got saved. As I don't everybody goes through that I'm just this is just what happened to me. It's just what happened to me. And it was at synapse firing. All that stuff filtered through. I could understand what was being said. I wanted a closer relationship with with this person, who when I asked him to prove something to me, made me cry. You know, I've just kept my head down, waiting for everybody to leave. Now, usually the volunteers come and we say something. Nobody said he left. And so I finished up cleaning up the thing left with back to the, to the to the cell, and just laid there quietly, trying to figure this stuff out. A couple of days later had to go back to work. I go in and see the chaplain, I say, Look, let me tell you what happened. So I told him, he said, I've been waiting for that. Like, it's just, I've been waiting for this, Mike, this is this is great news don't. And I said, Well, that's, that's great news for you. But I have no idea what to do. I said, I am I supposed to go to every Bible study? I'm supposed to go every service one, what am I supposed to do? And he said, Just be patient. This is let's let's let's pray together. And we did. And let's see what God would have you do. About a week later, I was enrolled in seminary because I wanted to know If, like in the first chapter of John, when it says that, that Jesus is God, I remembered from the Jehovah Witnesses when they read it so that Jesus was a god. So the first thing I wanted to do was see in the Greek what it actually said, he says, we're gonna need to go to seminary. I said, Yeah, give me the Strong's Concordance, and let's go through this. And so when I saw, I said, Okay, then I was in, then I, all I wanted to do was learn. And I was 30 something years old. And all I wanted to do was learn about God. And so over the next, you know, what was 13 years? That's all I did was I learned, I went to seminary. I got my degrees. I'm trying to figure out okay, when I get out what am I called to do? And the chaplain was gone by then other chaplains are talking, Oh, God, I'll show you that. But you're called to be a Pastor Mike. And I was saying, that's cool. You know, that's great. I only have to work on what Wednesday to do a Bible study. And then Sunday, I preach and I'm rest of the week mine pretty much, right? So I had obviously, I had no clue as to what a pastor did. But I became a teacher. And I began teaching the other inmates and stuff that I was learning. And, you know, I would preach, got to the point when I transferred Finally, when my custody dropped far enough down, I was transferred to a camp in Taft, California. And we put together a choir, and we would go out and sing in the local churches, and I would preach, and it was, so it Okay, well, you know, I'm not, I'm an okay, preacher, I don't know. But I'm really a teacher and a counselor because I was counseling guys and doing things like that. And so it was it was a metamorphosis, you know, over the over the period of time from from this cocoon of prison to where coming out, you know, what am I going to be? Am I going to be, you know, an ugly duck might be a butterfly, you know, what's this and you shouldn't be the person I want you to be like, and so that's kind of in a nutshell, from you just asked me about salvation, but I kind of felt like you need to see the whole story of how it played out. It wasn't a Oh, I've got this now. My life has changed. This is a road to Damascus thing. There was no road to Damascus God had me do every single day of my time. And my wife waited for me every single day of that time, and suffered greatly by doing so. But she stayed nonetheless. And I mean, that's kind of tell you, I mean, it's amazing that our youngest child became a police officer a year and a half ago. How's that? People say God doesn't have a sense of humor. How's that for a sense of humor, but I mean, it's just been kind of a that type of a metamorphosis is taking place. Rodney Olsen  So you were able to undertake those seminary courses whilst you're in prison. I guess that's one way of making sure that you have the time to study. Mike Savage  Yeah, you know, I'm I don't know how many people you know, who have read all of Calvin's Institute's who've read most of the Pentecostal literature on preaching worship, teaching that story. thing, read through most of the word biblical commentaries, I went through all those. When I wasn't in the chapel. I was either at the weight pile, or I was in myself reading books. And if I could get away with reading books while I was on duty at the chapel, I did that too. I mean, I, I read every commentary I could get my hands on. I read different versions of the Bible. I learned the the Greek and the Hebrew writings, I can't pronounce it people laugh at me when I try and read it out loud because I didn't have anybody teaching me how to save the words. But that and I did some time with a priest and he was walking me through the Latin rights and Latin masses and, and going through those things. And so I had this this opportunity to get a world class education doing that. I was just amazed. You know, what I look back now. I'm amazed. But it was it was a rare opportunity. And I'm really glad I took that time to be able to read rather than you know, just In the stuff that I was starting out doing, Rodney Olsen  it certainly has been a big change around. And you mentioned that initial chaplain who saw you out there and just felt the Holy Spirit saying, There's something about this guy, you need some sort of connection. Do you ever get a chance to catch up with him once you left prison? Mike Savage  Thank goodness for Facebook, right? He found me. He knew when I was getting out, and we weren't allowed to communicate while I was in prison, but he had retired. And when I got out, he contacted me. So we have been in contact. This is just a wonderful, wonderful man of God. And there was there's another chaplain that I met at Taft that I'm still in contact with also he's retired as well. Just wonderful men of God that were instrumental in keeping me on the right path when I got to Taft, that there were some extreme rough edges because I'd been at higher level institutions and going into a camp it was entirely different. I had higher level institutions swearing is de rigueur, you know, it's part of the the process. So he, he had to work on my swearing, I had a tendency to, I felt like there were certain times where only a certain word would do you know, and I know that sounds strange for Christians but I have saved in prison I was educated in prison. So the the rough and he he worked as hard as he could to get those rough edges off of me and and I have to give him a lot of credit for, for having a lot of patience. There was times I would just I was amazed at some of the stuff that people would say that were the lower level institution. I mean, it's as low as it was no fence around it, not the walk off if you wanted to. But I mean, the people who come in were just straight from the streets where I've been in prison for over a decade. So if there was some some fisticuffs and other things that occurred just kind of leave it at that, but he I'm telling you, Rodney was the the Mike Savage of today is entirely different than the one that made it into that prison camp at the end for the final two years of a sense of Oh man, so that it's a It was a process and God always put the right people there to take care of that. Rodney Olsen  There is a thought for some people that once you come to meet with God, you accept Jesus. There's that salvation that we talk about in Christian circles, that life gets pretty sweet after that. But you're saying that that's not quite the case. You still had to serve out that sentence. And that goes against the way that some people would like to believe. Mike Savage   I had guys tell me, you just need to claim your way out of here. You just need to claim your way out Mike because God loves you. I said, show me one person that's claimed their way out of prison. Just one. I said, let's take a look at the scriptures. You know, where did Paul end up? Where did Peter end up? In prison. As if there's anybody that could have walked out? It's those two but they chose to stay. Why? Because their faith in God. I have faith in God that he's going to make now there weren't times that I wasn't still talking to Father and saying, hey, look, you know, this is this is good to go. I'm ready to go. But the thing is that the books that I read one of them was the practice of his presence by Brother Lawrence. Are you familiar with that book? Rodney Olsen  I've certainly heard of it. Yes. Mike Savage  Oh, that's the only way I pray anymore is this constant conversation I mean, whether I'm, you know, scooping dog poop in the backyard, or whether I'm cooking dinner, or whether the Bible open in front of me, He and I are in a conversation. When I teach prayer. When I teach the theology of prayer, one of the first things I tell the students is, from here on out for this for this semester, when you finish praying to God, do not say amen. Unless you're praying over food, because we don't want the food to get cold but other than that, we're forbidden from saying amen, because that's like hanging up the phone. You're done. Maybe he's not. And so would you be in conversation? And the first time I said that, I got reported to the Academic Dean who calls me to his office, I'm teaching heresy. I explained to him what I said, and he says I've never thought of that. That's a good point. And so the first lesson is for them. I want you to sit there for one minute, close your eyes and think about nothing but God just just got for one minute. Everything else is gone. Close your eyes. I'm timing. And of course, I'm a big guy. So these students are intimidating in prison. So they are their best right? At the end of one minute, okay, who was able to keep their mind on God for one minute without any intrusive thoughts, and whoever raises their hand, I'm going to call a liar, because there was no way you could do that. It takes practice. It takes effort. It takes building a relationship where you can be in conversation, and I learned that from Brother Lawrence. And Brother Lawrence said that even when he would forget when he would get caught up in the mundane things of life, God would call him back and we've got did call him back by the Lord's didn't have to fall down and apologize, guys, I know how you're from. Let's just continue where you left off. And they would have that communication. The same way Jesus did with his disciples when they were walking to me that was prayer. They're walking and talking to me, you're talking to God, that's perfect. He's talking back. That's the best form of prayer. So Those types of books made a big difference in my life. I didn't learn that in seminary. I just found the book and read it. It happened to be in the prison library. And it was it was a life changer for me. I mean, I walk around the backyard talking to God out loud. And occasionally some of the neighbors say you're talking to me. I know. Sorry. I was just thinking out loud cuz I don't tell him talking to God because I don't want him to think I'm crazy, right? But I do. Talk to him just like that every day. Walk around the house, my dogs will look at me. They know he's talking to God. He's not talking to us. My wife puts up with it, which is brilliant. I don't even realize I'm talking out loud to God but he brought me through so much. Why am I gonna give up on him now? Why? Why wouldn't I keep praying that way? Is our life terrific? Yeah. Because we're together. Doesn't mean we have millions of dollars or any of that type of thing. Sometimes it's tough to find a job, you know, for an ex con, who's a professor, an adjunct professor, rather than being a tenured professor. Sometimes it's tough, but he's never let us down. We went through hurricane Harvey a few years ago had bunch of stuff destroyed. God built it right back up. Went through another hurricane a couple of months ago. God was right there with his to do it again. And so it's kind of hard to doubt him. After all I've been through over the time being in prison and looking back and seeing what He did, it is hard to doubt that He's not going to do the right thing moving forward. So I mean, why would I doubt that will be the reason for that. He's never let me down before Why would he suddenly do that? Rodney Olsen  At the end of your sentence, you're released and even though your wife Cynthia has stood by you all this time, was it like studying a new relationship coming out and having to set boundaries again and, and just begin again, from a new point? Mike Savage  To a degree. Now understand when I left to go to prison, there was no cell phones, internet. Starbucks was just kind of starting type of stuff in California. When I get out, she hands me a cell phone. As I don't need his cell phone. I need to call anybody No, for 15 years you had to call me I wouldn't be able to call you. Okay. All right, I'm cell phone. I thought the internet was like a big library that everything was true on it. You can look stuff up. So I was anxious to to try that. But my behavior in prison. I'll give you an example. I got home shortly before Thanksgiving. And on Thanksgiving, the whole family came over right there stand in the house and I was talking all this. Well, 10 o'clock at night, you know, I was tired. So I went to bed. And Rodney when I say went to bed. I just got up and left and went to the bedroom, went to bed. And I got up the next morning. And Cynthia says, Are you mad? I said mad, what would I be mad about? I'm happy. I'm home. You know, this is great. I'm happy to be with you. You went to bed last night. You didn't say good night to anyone. Well in prison, you don't go around. Okay, night night, everybody. I didn't even dawn on me and I suddenly realize That that, you know, they talk about being institutionalized the idea that you become used to routines and institutions so you carry them with you. That's exactly what it happened. And so I had to learn to do those sort of things. Another example of that a few weeks later, Cynthia and our youngest son, we're going to the grocery store, get out the car, walk in a parking lot. This lady comes running up to Cynthia with a clipboard, asking if she registered to vote. And Cynthia is very polite, very elegant woman professional. She's director of case management for three hospitals here in Corpus Christi. Just a terrific lady. She goes, Yes, I have. Thank you. Okay. And so Jessie and I are beginning to talk. I mean, he's, he's a teenager. And so we were kind of struggling to establish a rapport. Me being there all the time. So we're talking about sports, we're talking about American football. And so we're going back and forth about football. We're still talking or walking up the street. There. All of a sudden ladies in front of me says, Did you register to vote? I just walked around or continue talking to Jesse. And we kept going. She comes around a second time gets right in front of me. I said, Did you register to vote? And I just walk around again, still talking to Jesse, third time, almost to the store. She She comes around, answer me, did you register to vote, but you don't point at people in prison like that you don't get in their face like that. I mean, it's just not something that's done unless you're looking for a fight. And so I informed her loudly that I was an ex con, I wasn't going to be able to vote, and that I just had 15 years in prison and the she needed to not stand in front of it. Only I used a lot of swear words to do it loudly and I'm a Christian at the time. Okay. But this is I'm acting, I'm acting out, you know, like, and so she kind of withers and goes away. I see Cynthia pull up the hood on her jacket and go into the store quickly. Jesse is my youngest son just beaming. He's, he's so happy. smiling. His old man just, you know, swore at this lady. I, you know, there's a little bit of the Holy Spirit convicting me. But sometimes the Holy Spirit wouldn't convict me until there was a lesson that had to be learned in the right lesson, the right person that we learned that lesson was there. Excuse me. Well, when I walk in, Cynthia's got her hood up. Got the grocery cart, trying to speed away, Hey, where are you going? Come here, come here. Let me let me push that for you. And it's what's wrong? And she said, you just you realize that you just very loudly swore at this lady and told everyone in hearing range that you're an ex con. Yeah. She said, there's nothing wrong with that, other than the swearing and being loud is nothing wrong being an ex con. But she says the people who heard you, they don't know what you did to go to prison. So they might think they're in the presence of a murderer or rapist or child abuser or something like that. You might consider that in the future beforehand. And that's when the Holy Spirit came said, Yeah, like, come on. Settle down. trust in me. Let me guide you a little. I had to learn that lesson that way. So there were a couple of times that I can remember right off the top of my head. That things did not go well. Yeah, I was a Christian. Yeah, I was saved. Yes, I believe all of those things, but I still had to change coming out of prison. So Cynthia and I, my relationship was great. She would support me through anything. But the children were kind of like, Who is this guy? Now? Well, Jessie loved the idea of the tough guy, ex con dad coming out. Daughter, not as much, oldest son not as much. So I had to learn to readapt into society. At the same time, be true to God, and be true to who he made me, which is sometimes I can be maybe a little loud or sometimes I can be a little, you know, demonstrative and in how I talk and I don't mean swearing, but I mean, I get close. Stop. I hardly ever do it from the pulpit anymore, right? No, I'm just kidding. I've. But it's one of those things I had to get back into me. Because I was a guy from the 80s coming out in 2007. You know, I it was rough inside prison. I mean, it's not I've been through riots. I've been through solitary confinement more times than I can count, but I never went to solitary confinement until after I was a Christian. Because I was always under suspicion for something because with the stuff that I used to do, I wasn't doing more so he must be doing something worse. So there was a change and things had to occur and I had to grow as a person as God wanted me to be outside of prison. And and that's that's been an ongoing process. Rodney Olsen  Tell me a little of what life is like now. Very different to those prison days. And I'm sure that God is still teaching you lessons. But what does life look like for you today? Mike Savage  When I turned 60, which was a year and a half ago. I thought, Okay, that's it. I'm done. You know, that's it. It's 60 that's old. You're finished. You know, we're going to, okay, I'm going to retire, and then slowly fade away. But it's, it's it hasn't been that way at all. I wrote the memoir. I've written a novel that I'm working on now. I finished up a dissertation for my doctorate in psychology over the last few years. And so today I'm an adjunct professor, I teach online, occasionally I go into the classroom. I enjoy being in the classroom. I enjoy teaching students and and challenging them and having fun with them. But I enjoy the time alone with God. I can see what was so appealing to to Francis Merton and his writings a Roman Catholic monk, a Trappist monk, about that this solitude of being God. And so there are days when I have contact with them. No one but Cynthia, and I can, I'm content with that. There are other days that I'll have me doing interviews, or we'll be interviewing people have classes, and I'm busy going back and forth. And it's fine. But any problems that arise, I always put into the perspective of what I've been through in the past and how God was faithful with that. And I've been in prison riots where, you know, things got ugly in a hurry, and he still protected me. And so, I always give the example of this way in prison when they say that brother is gonna stab you in the back. They mean it literally. It's not like it's not a metaphor of, he's going to say something bad about you. So there's this perspective that I've been that I've been given by God, that it's okay to be alone. Because you're not alone because you're with God. It's okay if if people don't always remember your name or they're not struck by this interview or by reading one of your books are. That's okay. That's okay. And so my life is one of pleasant solitude at times of pleasant action at times, but of trying my best to be led by God and whatever he wants me to do it and sometimes that's moment to moment because sometimes I can get a little restless, I'll admit. And that's time of Okay, we'll pick up the guitar. You know, let's just talk Mike why you play your little chords, or, you know, let's let's write some more. Let's edit some more. This is a quiet more contemplative time and I've described it to Cynthia as being in solitary confinement, with privileges. But I mean, it's a good life. Our children are all grown. We have five grand sons. It's an enjoyable life because I see it through how God wants me to see it in times that I get restless. I realize I'm just being kind of a knucklehead and just to settle down. Rodney Olsen  I'm going to put some links to your website in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. But for anyone listening, what's the easiest way for them to get in touch with you? They want to pick up a copy of your book and delve further into your story or listen to the podcast. Where should they go? Mike Savage  Well, I made it pretty simple. If they want to buy the book, it's on Amazon. It's called a prisoner's perspective, the redemption of a criminal mastermind. So it's right there on Amazon. If you're interested in finding out more about me or for whatever reason that may be, you can go to MikeSavageBooks.com. That's, that's the website and I'm also on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. And I'm not a master of any of those, but I am capable of returning messages. So if I can at least do that, but the that's the best way to get in touch. I appreciate your you're putting those out there. Thank you, Rodney very much, Rodney Olsen  Mike. It has been a delight hearing your story to hear where you've come from and where God has you headed and I'm sure that the story is not over yet but thank you so much for your time today on Bleeding Daylight. Mike Savage  Thank you very much. Emily OlsenThank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net 

I was lucky enough to catch up with Marissa Nash and chat about how she is leading with spirituality in her thriving coaching business. Her career in wellness started at lululemon, and since she has worked in the wellness industry for over 9 years. She has been a Certified Professional Life Coach for 5+ years, a 1,000+ hour Yoga Instructor for 9+ years and she specialize in teaching self-care, meditation & mindfulness techniques. Marissa is a certified Executive Coach and Corporate Wellness Consultant. She is also certified in The Science of Wellbeing from Yale University and Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction from Thomas Jefferson, developed by Meditation Teacher Jon Kabat-Zinn. She developed The Well Method out of a gap that she witnessed in the wellness industry as well as the practices, techniques, and holistic modalities that she has used to heal and transform her own mind, body, and soul. She has coached over 300 women and have worked with clients across the U.S. and abroad, including California, Pennsylvania, New Zealand, North Carolina, Texas, South Carolina, Michigan, and New York! She graduated from Penn State University in 2011 with a B.A. in Corporate Communications and completed my Master's Degree in Organizational Leadership and Executive Coaching at Concordia University with Dr. John Townsend. ​ She is also a dog-mom to my mini-goldendoode, Finn (check her out on my instagram!) Connect with Marissa here: https://www.thewellco.org/ https://instagram.com/marissarosenash https://www.facebook.com/thewellcobymarissarose ​ Brandon Handley 0:00 54321 Hey there podcast listener and welcome to spiritual dope today I've got Marissa Nash joining me and she is a woman's life wellness coach, executive coach, meditation teacher, yoga instructor, corporate wellness consultant, you know, she embodies all these things and, but she pulls it together in a holistic manner. So she has a holistic life coach. And her mission is to teach you how to tap into the wisdom of your mind, body and soul. And learn to trust your intuition and step into your personal power both personally and professionally. As a certified life coach for over five years, a over 1000 hours of yoga instructor for nine years, specializes in self care, meditation and mindfulness techniques. And she's also a certified coach and a corporate wellness consultant. There's There's quite a bit more so you know, you've got you've got it all gone down. But as it kind of relates to this, you believe in Many holistic modalities that you use with your clients such as Lifestyle coaching, yoga, mindfulness, visualization, and Reiki. And I'll leave it for anyone who wants to find out more about all that you're doing to head over to your website after they kind of check it out. But welcome, and thanks for joining us. Marissa Nash 1:19 Thanks, Brandon. I'm really excited to be here. Brandon Handley 1:22 You have no idea what you're in for do you're like, I have no idea what's happening. Unknown Speaker 1:27 But like the energy of it. Brandon Handley 1:30 I love it. I love it. Um, so you and I were connected by a good friend of mine, Jeremy Todd, who we started our podcast adventure years ago with each other. He was quite literally my first interview. And and YouTube connected and he said, you know, you got to talk to Brandon, you're, you're right down the street from me. You're over in Philadelphia, you're from the area as well. And let's kick it off. I mean, what what what, that's what I want to start with cards at the every card. Nearby your tarot cards because this is how you start your this so So, you know Marissa starts her podcast with a, you know, a kind of a card reading. I don't, but I love the idea so I figured I'd spring that on you let's find one do you want to pull a card and tell us what we're up for? Marissa Nash 2:15 I love it. Yes, I would love to do that I do on my podcast and in sessions with all my clients, I pull cards. I find that it's really important just to connect spiritually with you know, you and I are humans on this earth doing the best we can but you know, what, what is the divine guidance that we need to be tuned into and also for your listeners. So I use Oracle cards. I'm a big fan of Gabby Bernstein. So I'm using her super attractor deck. Brandon Handley 2:41 She, you know, I wasn't aware of like she's a spiritual junkie. Right? Is that right? Yeah. I love it. Right like it plays in line with spiritual dope, right. Come on now. Unknown Speaker 2:51 Yes, I love it. Yes. Okay, so this is a cool one. So I'll read this over. So it says the more I attune my energy with appreciation, the more the universe will deliver. Brandon Handley 3:03 Hmm, love it. What's that mean for us today? Unknown Speaker 3:07 Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I, you know, I, I don't know where this conversation will go. But a big belief that I have is around manifestation and in order to manifest, you really have to appreciate what you have and you have to be in energy and in alignment with appreciation and gratitude. It's a big part of my story. And what I help clients with is really focusing on living a life in alignment with gratitude and appreciation and a state of abundance. So I imagine that will come up today. Brandon Handley 3:35 Absolutely, I mean, look, so that's all the line is the line is, uh, you know, appreciate what you have, right? Just Just in general. You know, just be grateful for the things that you do have. It doesn't matter if you've got a lot, but at least want what you have, right? Because if you've got a lot and you don't want it, that's not serving you. Right. Right. So for you For your for your information. So I grew up with a hippie mom. Right? Well, and, and yeah, we'll see there you go and and it was like, you know, she was caught like these these lifestyle trappings, right like you know, these are all the trappings, like if you've got all these things and you're kind of trapped with those things right because you have to, you're trapped with those things you're maintaining them. Right. So let's let's I mean let's jump into, you know your journey a little bit I want to share a little bit of your backstory. realizing you're from the Philadelphia area, you're a Penn Stater Penn State, right. So Penn State, my wife went to Penn State as well she, she still talks about it, she still loves it seems like it must have been a good time there. But you also you've traveled around a little bit. And most recently if I if I'm following the story, now you're back here from Texas. Right? Is that right? Okay. So, walk us in the journey from you know, Penn State to where you are today? Any synopsis any way you want to? Unknown Speaker 5:03 Yeah, I would love to because my journey actually in wellness did start nine years ago at Penn State, which is a little surprising because you think Penn State party school, I was in a sorority, and I had this moment, my junior year of college, where I just knew that I was seeking more. I felt like you know, did the college thing. There's something more for me, but I didn't know what it was. And I remember my best friend Becca, I came back from summer break. And she just looked different. She looked radiant. She looked, you know what I would call really well. And I just asked him like, Becca, what have you been doing? It's yoga. And I'm like, yoga. What, what's yoga all about? Let me try it. And so we would do a 90 minute hot yoga class at this little apartment in State College on campus at Penn State. This guy named Doug owned it and he was just plugged heaters into the wall of this apartment studio that he rented. And we would do hot yoga for 90 minutes and then it would end with a yoga nidra. a pretty long 30 minute I feel like sometimes even 40 minute Yoga nidra practice which is so good. It's a deep meditative practice. So you're going deep into your subconscious through guided meditation. So I was introduced to meditation, spirituality and yoga, you know, one of its deepest levels at a very young age. And I don't think I knew how powerful that really was, but it worked for me it calmed a lot of my anxiety. I have been a dancer when I was in middle school, I quit around High School. And I think that creative element was really missing from my life. So I felt like I had found my place I did one yoga class and call my dad the next day as a college student. I said, Dad, I'm going to get certified to be a yoga teacher. Unknown Speaker 6:53 I have two or three grand Unknown Speaker 6:57 Are you back and I did it. I honestly took one yoga class. Sign up for teacher training the next day with the philosophy that, you know if I pay for the teacher training I get for yoga classes and I get paid as a teacher. So it made sense to me. And from there my journey took off actually worked really well lemon for a while and two different stores in Philadelphia and in Charleston, South Carolina. And Lulu lemon was a great setup for me at a young age. They were really big on goal setting, there was a lot of transformational leadership that was happening within the organization, and just a lot of ways to really connect with the wellness community as well. So I really do a credit a lot of my early career to what I learned at lemon. And that that ended me up in Charleston, I ended up moving to Charleston before Charleston was, you know, the place that it is today. This was, gosh, six years ago, and stayed in Charleston for a little while. Where to Lou lemon didn't teach much yoga there. But then I really started teaching yoga when I moved to Southern California Brandon Handley 7:57 because there's a there's a Bill Murray story in Charleston. Yeah, let's highlight that just for a second. Because you know, listen, when my wife and I were in North Carolina for a little bit you and I had talked a little bit about this before. And we're like, the only reason we would go to Charleston would be to catch up with Bill Murray. What happened between you and Bill Murray? Unknown Speaker 8:16 I don't know very. I've never met him. But Unknown Speaker 8:20 no, no. Brandon Handley 8:22 Yeah, no. Did we have this conversation? He became me. That's not you. Ah, are you sure? Unknown Speaker 8:30 I never met him. I mean, he lives there. But yeah, Brandon Handley 8:33 that was told me the story then. Unknown Speaker 8:36 I don't know. Unknown Speaker 8:38 I've been talking to Okay, keep moving then. Unknown Speaker 8:40 Oh, no, the girl said. Um, yeah. Now he has a restaurant though. Apparently. That's really good. I Brandon Handley 8:45 was I wasn't so I was in this conversation. Mm hmm. Man. All right. Yeah, she's pretty good with this, but go ahead. Unknown Speaker 8:52 Um, yeah, so then I actually ended up moving to Southern California. I got a job teaching stand up paddleboard yoga in Laguna Beach. and manage this little paddle, paddle board shop and Laguna on the ocean. And it was awesome. You know, living in Southern California being in my early 20s I really got to live out a lot of the dreams that I had. And I then got connected with core power yoga. So I taught full time yoga in Southern California. I also managed the core power yoga studio for a little while. Another amazing organization to be a part of great, great leadership, great leadership development inside of the organization. And then I honestly moved back to Charleston and did some nonprofit work for a little while. And all along have been a life coach. So I've been a life coach for five years, I've always specifically focused on women, helping them to transform their lives, whatever that looks like for them, whatever their end goal is. In the recent couple of years, my my primary focus has been on holistic wellness, and really helping women to map out what their wellness plan looks like. I found For me when I really got in touch with Okay, my wellness is a priority took me a little while to figure out it was almost difficult it was it was hard like this undercover topic of like, I would walk in like a crystal shop and be like, Do you know anyone that practices I already know or let you know, like, do you know when doing energy healing and it's like, why was this so hard to find? And Unknown Speaker 10:23 so yeah, Unknown Speaker 10:24 yeah, exactly but what I knew worked for me um, and so that's really led me to design you know, the welco which is my wellness coaching firm, as well as my corporate wellness programs. And you know, as of late, the well method, which really guides women through a one year program, where they actually get to meet with me as their transformational leadership coach, but then also get access to for other holistic healers that they get to do private sessions with within the year because that's what I've found works for me is being able to work with a lot of different modes. realities and a lot of different healers to make sure that I'm well in all different areas of my life. Unknown Speaker 11:06 Now, I love it. I love it. Brandon Handley 11:08 And I love Look, I mean, it's initially right even back in college when you're doing kind of the body movement, right with the yoga and then you go right into, you know that Yogananda right, like going into the deep meditative state. And, you know, the things that that's, it's a lot of people know, to move their bodies, right and work their bodies, and that's really important, but what they don't do after that is take some time to kind of go with it. Unknown Speaker 11:35 Yes, I, Brandon Handley 11:37 um, I want to know more about your hippie mom. Yeah. Yes. I mean, you know, so, you know, Was it easy for you then to for, for me to kind of jump into this space mentally. It was kind of an easy transition for myself, because of a hippie mom. Right. So I'm just curious if that was similar for you. Yeah, so Unknown Speaker 11:57 my parents are both deadheads, so Grateful Dead all day long in our house still. And yeah, I think my mom, so my dad I would describe is like, yeah, deadhead, he still goes to like cover shows and Yeah, super into it just um, my dad was always so supportive of me and my dreams. He's also an entrepreneur. So I think that helped me. So I've never been limited in that. And my mom is very spiritual. She's very open minded. I love that about her. I remember she would buy me books of, you know, different world religions, and she always just encouraged me to explore and to really honor people and faith in their spirituality, their race. I mean, you know, what, what they believed and I'm, I'm really grateful for that. It's something that you know, as you get older, you realize that not everybody is raised that way. And I really raised to be empowered to make my own decisions in my faith and spirituality career. And it's helped me a lot, I think, be a leader in this space. Brandon Handley 12:56 Now, I love it and it seems like you know, you're totally aligned with Kind of your purpose? Um, and what would you say purposes because, you know, bring in, I think as a coach, right, coming from the coaching space as well as a coach, you know, it's our job to help others bring out the best and others. Right? Bring. And I had another guy I had a coach and look, I have a, I'm not a Christian, I don't come from a Christian background, but you know, my coaches like my job is to bring people to Christ. I was like, Okay, tell me what that means to you. Right? Because I mean, that could mean anything to anybody. Right? And when he explained it, to me, it was, you know, to kind of bring you to your Divine Self Help you step into your power, that's a good thing. So what does that? What does coaching mean to you? What's your end game? Like when you're coaching somebody? What's that transformation? really mean to you? Unknown Speaker 13:46 Yeah, that's a great question. So for me, I would say since I work specifically with women, it's to help them to live a life that feels in alignment. So I do a lot of limiting beliefs work. I also really do believe in meditation because I think that We can get covered in beliefs about ourselves, or we have the world works that aren't true. And for me, it's been most healing, to clarify, but what beliefs do I choose? And then from that place, I can then make empowered decisions about my life. And, you know, it's difficult. And that's why I think coaching is so valuable, because, you know, it's difficult making decisions for my life that don't fit the mold for what everybody else is doing. And I know I've always kind of been that way. But through coaching and having my own coach, you know, you're you're validated, you're affirmed, you're reminded that that's okay. I'm also really big on community. So I do have a community called the well and that's really designed so that women can come together and explore who they are and still be loved along the way. So that that's really important to me, the way that I do that I can talk about later, but it's really about making empowered decisions for your life, based on you learning how to live a life that's in alignment for you, not based on what anybody else wants for you. Brandon Handley 14:57 No, absolutely right. I mean, there's the public process of kind of going to unlearn everything you've been taught. Right? But but in the sense and and and try not to do it too dramatically, right? Like you always think about a good buddy of mine. And we always talk about, you know, the matrix, and nobody makes their first jump, right? And just trying to like, yeah, look, you're gonna make that first jump. And if you you know, quote, unquote, fail, or if you fall down, I hit your face. I mean, that's all in your mind. Right? Like, you just get back up and you keep at it, right? How do you know, how do you help these women to expand and understand their limiting beliefs? Unknown Speaker 15:35 Yeah, definitely. I like what you said about you know, I don't think it's a hard and fast process. I think that can actually be more disruptive and counterproductive. So you know, I actually did a limiting belief session with a client yesterday, but that was her sixth time working with me. So we've been working together for three months. You know, it's something that I think the relationship with Coach and client is really important. I'm definitely the type of coach where you know, it's not a one off session. I don't even offer one off sessions like it's it's a year long program at this point because you have to feel really safe, you know, you have to feel really safe and secure with the people that you're working with to really transform on a deep level. So the limiting beliefs work, I actually was inspired to create that. From john Maxwell. It was literally like a four sentence line in one of his books that I read. And I was like, that's it. That's exactly what I need and what I feel like my clients have needed. I used to run my coaching practice, in that I would help my clients to visualize where they want to be. I would help them to set the goals to get there, and then I would hold them accountable. But I noticed they weren't actually achieving and accomplishing their goals because they were running up against these limits in these blocks. So that's how now I tackle the blocks and I let them know that it's normal to have blocks, right. Like I said, like the unlearning process isn't unique to anyone. We all meet that. So yeah, it's really, I would say like guiding them and holding their hand through it but also empowering them. Don't give them words or language, I might give them examples. But ultimately they end up with an affirmation that is going to then rewire their brain to push them to where they want to be in a loving and kind way. Brandon Handley 17:10 Hello, hello. And john Maxwell is really awesome, right? I wasn't a fan of his until his latest book, right? And I don't even know what the name of it is, but somebody shared it with me when the leader shift, right, why the leadership, audible was like, so good. And like, literally mowing my lawn listening to it. I was like, I was like, that's it this great, I'm like, you know, and then I was like, get Fine. I'll go read some more of his stuff. You know, because, you know, some, you know, coming from that subculture background and you can't Yeah, that's more it's a little too square square hole for me, right. Um, so, you know, I finally accepted them into my life. It's my john Maxwell story. But it's like that, right? You you. You have and this is, this is My process right sounds kind of similar, where you've got the idea in your mind. And it's not until like you stumble across something else that explains it for you like, Oh my god, that four lines right there explains what I've been trying to convey, but I haven't been able to do it. And there it is. And it's just like a burst right there kind of like a starburst, right? So I love that. Let's talk a second about like, you know, spirituality and Divinity. Right, what I mean? I think, yeah, I think I heard you say divinity. Talk a little bit about that, you know, on one of your podcasts, and then what's that mean to you? Like, kind of taking divine grace and spirituality, right, like Unknown Speaker 18:46 fill me in like, what's what's up? Unknown Speaker 18:48 For me my spirituality is a constant exploration. I remember when, you know, I I was a Christian at a point and then I you know, I wasn't and I was raised Christian. So I kind of went in and out and you know, I am no longer a Christian. And I remember asking myself like, well, who do I pray to that, you know? And for me it was it was kind of helpful and fun to just explore, you know, ask other people like, Well, how do you pray? And what does that look like? And I would work with different healers and just kind of, you know, kind of absorb and try on and then figure out what works for me. So, currently, my spiritual practice my spirituality looks like a lot of meditation, a lot of self reflection, a lot of letting go of being told what to do and how to do it and and challenging and questioning and digging in. But a big spiritual practice for me is just reciting some affirmations and prayers that I have. One that I specifically love that I'm working with right now is I love myself unconditionally. I feel myself unconditionally. I feel myself loving myself unconditionally. I feel myself forgiving myself unconditionally. We thank you. We thank you. We thank you. So the past the present in the future, and I love that prayer. So that's just mean that brings me back to a place of centering and grounding and then just helps me move on with my day. So yeah, for me, it's really being connected to the divine throughout the day. So cards helped me with that meditation. Prayer yoga. breathwork is a big practice of mine. I think there are a lot of different ways to spirituality. And if you're someone that's looking to explore spirituality, I highly recommend white hot truth by Danielle Laporte. She kind of tackles all these different spiritual practices and religions and beliefs in a really loving, hilarious way. And it really freed me up to be like, this doesn't need to be so serious, you know, like I can just floor and try on and see what works for Marissa, Brandon Handley 20:47 for sure, for sure. I love that. I love that right? It doesn't have to be so serious. It doesn't have to be. Don't have to like, just kind of make fun of the door. There's always like a headband. Like listen if you go to a dead concert everybody looks like they go to what that concert right? And sometimes you get the same type of thing with spirituality you go to like you're like, Oh, you know what these it looks like this looks like it could be a pretty cool spiritual group you show up and everybody's wearing like the same kind of tie dye skirt like beads around their neck and you know, there's definitely some crystals going on. Right? But it doesn't have to be. You don't have to look the part to be spiritual, right? You don't have to be do it that way. And it doesn't sound like you're doing it that way. Sounds like you're doing you know what's, what's houses look for? maresa. Right. connected to the divine, then let's take another layer deeper. What's the divine mean to you? Unknown Speaker 21:43 Yes, I really believe I kind of CO relate. Mm hmm. So deep question. So I do pray for divine guidance. I have found that instead of you know, praying to God, I pray for divine guidance. So that's one way that I connect with the divine I also view the divine as our higher self. So sometimes I will visualize either my higher self or my higher self showing up as golden light and invite that into my body and clear and release any beliefs within me that are not in alignment with my higher self, who I believe is the divine version of me. Brandon Handley 22:19 Okay, is the Divine Self. And just, you know, kind of checking it out, right, I love First of all, I love the imagery. You know, is it the Divine Self a part? A part? Is it within you, a part of you are separate from you, like, I'm just, you know, where we are. Unknown Speaker 22:36 I see it as something I can always connect with. I think, you know, I'm not personally actually someone that believes, you know, and like, I'm not trying to achieve enlightenment on this earth. You know, but I think that I think I'm a human, you know, a soul and a human body. You know, I am very human and very much of this world. Every day, you know, it's like, um, you know, I don't believe in like wearing all white And being spiritually light ending all day. And I love being a human and love being in this body so that I can bring divine guidance to this earth. So yeah, I think for me, it's something that I can always access and also is within me, but because I live in the world, you know, that can be clouded. Sure, no, no, I get it. I get it. And first of all, I'll throw out like I made a coffee cup. It says a first coffee than awakening. Right? Yeah. Brandon Handley 23:27 Right. Because we are like totally human. And like, you know, some days which is like, you know, if you if you if you catch me before this cup of coffee might not be best idea, right. So, so here's the here's why I'm digging into that, right? Because I think I think the lion came from like Joe dispenza. Right? We only rise to our level of thinking, right? If we only rise our level of thinking and then if we think that and there's nothing about being human right if we just think that if we think We're just seeing a man and we just think that we're these these shells. And we just think that we're these, you know, flesh bags and there's nothing again, nothing wrong with that. But once you kind of introduce your higher self, once you introduce this connection to divinity, once you access the divinity, your Divine Self, and you've got that ability to access that, what does that do to your level of thinking? Right? And to me, like that just means that you access a different, you know, level or phase of thinking. So with your divine with your divine divinity and divine grace, you're able to take on more than you could if you were just human, right? And again, I'm not saying just humans are bad we all have everybody has the ability. And the other part of this too is like if we go all the way back, you know, what beliefs do you choose? Right? You can choose, you know, if we use Albert Einstein, you know, either everything's a miracle or nothing's a miracle, right? If we use the Vedanta Right, I'm not, if you listen to Swami is Safari on a panda, right, I totally butchered that last name, but I got all the syllables. If, if you ever check him out, like I mean, there's 44 hours like where he's gotten into the introduction of data, but like, part of it is either your all of it or none of it right? You're either all of the universe or you're not a bit you're connected 100% or not at all. So but that's a choice that you make. And once you make those choices, right, it starts to open up and it sounds like you do some la right like, I mean, you know, law of attraction stuff, it all kind of plays in and that's why you know, I'm kind of digging in on the Divinity part, just kind of seeing where you are with that. So once you accept your divine access, how do you feel like that transformed you? Unknown Speaker 25:46 Yes, interesting, because actually, I'm gonna relate this to the the work. The way that I help people to access their most Divine Self for sure is through meditation visualization. I take them through, you know, deep guided journeys, but I also because of the human experience I really helped them to focus on what their core desired feelings are, and how do they want to feel in this life because I believe that when you can access that, then you can actually live out your most divine and most empowered self. So for me, once I connected with, you know, who am I and what are my wants and my needs and desires, which is typically more difficult for women than it is for men. I was really able to make decisions for my life that bettered my life that made me feel more in alignment that started to attract more of what I wanted, and you kind of alluded to it, but I think that perspective is key. And that's why in the beginning, when we pulled this card, you know, tuning your energy to appreciation is huge. Because if you can attune yourself to appreciation or you know, to an affirmation of gratitude to what's already amazing in front of you, you're going to start to Yes, I believe attract more of it, but also have eyes for seeing more of it. So I'm a big believer in that As well Brandon Handley 27:01 100% I call that like kind of setting your filters, right? Like, pretend like we're all walking Google's right. If I go and I say, you know, show me beautiful things in Google, it returns beautiful things. It never ever does it return, like a whole bunch of crap. Right? And, you know, so if we wake up every day, you're like, Oh, this sucks. That sucks. This sucks. That sucks. You know, you're setting your filter to this sucks. This sucks. And that's all you're gonna see. Right? So I wanna, I want to, I'm gonna pick on a little bit here on the, you know, the women, you know, women and and kind of determining what they want, you know, versus men. Right? As a challenge, right? What makes you say that like, yeah, Unknown Speaker 27:44 yeah, but while the masculine energy, like the Divine Masculine is much more rooted in what they want, what they need, getting those needs met, it's much more stable and consistent. Just eat You know, we could go deep, like our hormone cycles are different, you know. So men are men are very static from day to day. So they wake up, they want, it's pretty much the same every day. Women are more in a 28 day hormone cycle. So we change and we add and we flow in the Divine Feminine is it's more creative, it's a more more open, it's more sensitive. So for us, it actually can change a lot. You know, this goes for both women and men, but a lot of women that I work with are also empaths. So they can take on a lot of other people's energies, and men can do that, too. Absolutely. But yeah, I think that, you know, women are naturally a little bit more curious and sensitive and willing to go with the flow versus be like, this is what I want this I need day in day out. Brandon Handley 28:45 Sure. Enough, fair enough. Fair enough. Um, and here's the only the only the only thing I'll say about that is that I think that's just our Western conditioning. Right? And, and I hit on this all the time with, you know, kind of anybody I talked to especially young guys when we like, when we're growing up, right as men. It's like It's like, and women too, I'm sure it's like, Alright, well, don't give into your emotions, right? Don't react to your emotions. And you know, you can't let your emotions control you. And what that translates into, for me as a child, right is, oh, I'm feeling something, I need to shut that off and never address it again. All right. And I think that i think that that's kind of where the that's what we see. Right? The the men's non ability or haven't traditionally been trained to address their emotions, right, even identify him. Right. And I think that that's the big challenge. It's like, hey, do you even know what you're feeling right now? Because if you don't know what you're feeling, how can you address it? Right? It's just the whole awareness thing we like if it doesn't have a label, you can't you can't do anything with it. Right? So that's the one thing that the author out there because I don't I feel like men kind of get a bum rap and we don't allow. I don't know what the hell I want, right? You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, I'm just doing I'm just doing what the guy had me just did or over there. I'm like, I don't shit works. We'll try that. What do you just do? I'm gonna do that, right. Just like you got to varies. I'll get two burgers. I don't whatever. Right. Yeah. So it's kind of like our social training. Right? Yeah, just saying give men a chance, you know? Yeah, it's, it's the, it's the idea of like, have be had that open dialogue, right? And that's a challenge too. For men. It's like, you know, they feel like you know, I'm going to go just on my own here. So if we kind of open up and share a feeling of it, first of all, we're like, we don't even know we're like, it feels kind of like this amorphous blob over here. Let's let's you know, let's let's whittle it down until we can figure it out. And nobody wants to be caught in that situation. Like I'm feeling these things and I don't even know what they already want to talk about that because that could that could get rejected. Right. Unknown Speaker 31:01 Yes, no, that's a really great point. I definitely do agree, I think all of us can benefit from being more self aware. So the first piece is the awareness piece of how Yeah, how do I want to feel and not just go? Oh, yeah, like, the, like you said, This is what the person ahead of me did. So this is how I have to do it. One affirmation that I've been telling myself lately, as I, you know, like bring some new programs into existence for the welco is just I can be the first to do it. Because I want to overcome that belief of Well, I have to do it a certain way, because that's how society has done it. It's like, I'm an Aquarius, and I'm here to innovate and honestly, there's to Unknown Speaker 31:40 me, there's no way so winter Bertha, January 27 25th. So um, you know, it's funny. Brandon Handley 31:51 The the idea though, so, you know, how do you want to feel in this life, right, how so let's say you're working with us women that aren't over connected with their emotions, how do you get them connected to those emotions? And, you know, to get them to even explore that idea? Unknown Speaker 32:08 Yeah, so it is a process. So I use the nine areas of wellness. And with each of those areas, we go through an entire map of how they're feeling on a scale of one to 10 in that area, then we talk about what's currently happening. So that's the awareness piece in that area. And then I have them just rewrite and journal about how they want to feel or what they want in that area. So it could be like, you know, I want to buy a house or I want a different career, whatever it is, and then we we go back and I really have them focus on the feelings behind what they desire. And then I have them narrow those down. And then we start to set action steps and goals around those feelings because it's honestly the hardest work is figuring out what you want to feel. emotional process, even just doing that that usually causes some shift and the person but then once you start to get those needs on small levels, it feels good. You know, I always hear that we are so primal, you know, we are primal beings, we want to feel good, we want what we want. So when you get clued in to what you want, you're going to go and get it as long as you can start small, and then you're going to want more of that and more of that. I always say, you know, it's like, you know, if you're a runner, I'm a runner, but after I go for a run, I can be having a pretty shitty day, and I'll go for a run and then I'm like, I feel great. Everything's okay, I want to drink a green juice. I'm gonna wake up early tomorrow and do yoga. You know, I'm like, I feel good. I did something good for myself. So the more small good things you can do for yourself. I think the more you can tap into that transformation a little bit quick, quicker. Brandon Handley 33:40 And I think he talked about that in the beginning too. Like how do I start doing wellness just for myself? Right. And and how do you do that how you start some of your clients off right small bits and pieces and you know, what's the, what's some of the reactions that they get, like, what's what are like? What are some timelines that you look Got a with the scenes, some transformations and people. Unknown Speaker 34:05 Oh man, it's so cool. So I really do focus my practice on women who who work in corporate, they certainly don't have to. But a lot of my clients do work in corporate. So it's really amazing to see that the work that we do in their personal life actually translates into their corporate space, they are much more confident. And this is within a couple of months. So that they noticed that they're much more confident they're making healthier decisions for their life. They're trying a lot of different wellness modalities that feel like they finally fit. Because that's the type of coach that will be like, cool, we're gonna have you do yoga, but how are you feeling? What do you need? Okay, so you're anxious. So let's not have you do power yoga, let's have you do some yoga. So it's very holistic in that way, really looking at the client as a unique individual. their relationships begin to change very quickly. And yeah, they're just overall happier and they get feedback really quickly from other people. A lot of my clients are like, people are telling you that I seem happier. And I'm like, Yeah. Brandon Handley 35:04 Awesome. That's awesome. I love it. I love you know, look, I mean, everybody, I think needs it right? to kind of go through the process. If we at least have somebody out there encouraging them and seeing them for who they are, right, we like you know, I see you for who you are. And we're gonna help you to see the same for yourself. Yeah. Um, do you want to talk a little bit more about the wall method? Like kind of what you got going on there? Unknown Speaker 35:31 Yeah, sure. I'd love to. So how a man the well method was really I would say that burst into existence just from a gap that I experienced in the wellness industry. And this obviously is, you know, my personal methodology and what works for me. So there are plenty of ways to do wellness. But what I noticed when I really wanted to start my wellness journey, and I was like, I'm ready. This is important to me. I'm ready to invest in it. Like I mentioned earlier, it was to like, it felt like I was piecemealing everything together and it honestly started to add up. You know, I'm like working with one healer there and I'm driving 30 minutes and then I found this other I related coach and I have to go 45 minutes into the city and I'm like driving all over and scheduling all these appointments and it was a little overwhelming. Yes, it absolutely worked. And I've connected with so many incredible wellness leaders. So what I've done with the well method is I've developed a one year program so my clients actually work with me as their holistic life coach and then they also quarterly get a session with a wellness expert. So I'll have somebody that you know, teaches them I Aveda in a private one on one session and that really helps them to understand more about their own body and seasonal wellness. I have a girl that will be doing body acceptance and self love working with an astrologer and then a womb wisdom guide and healer. So it's an amazing womb wisdom guide and healer Unknown Speaker 36:58 wisdom Unknown Speaker 37:00 Yes, this might be new. Yeah. Brandon Handley 37:03 That's interesting. That's actually I've never heard I've never I've never heard and it's just fun to say actually waited. Unknown Speaker 37:08 Yeah, it's a really cool creative title, but she's a cycle track and how to actually use their cycle to their advantage, which is really important and women's wellness. Brandon Handley 37:18 Sure, man, it's like, you know, the tides of the ocean no doubt, right? Yeah. And I'm sure that there's like some emotional ebbing and flowing right. When are you going to use that? high tide of energy? You got it. Unknown Speaker 37:32 I can tell you have a wife who understands Brandon Handley 37:38 so listen again. I grew up in your my hippie mom. Oh, yeah. single mom is just kind of like, you know, it's just it's kind of already there. Right. So all that stuff there. So advantage disadvantage, I don't know. Um, and and so you're rolling this out? This is going to come out like around July so we're going to be live in July? Unknown Speaker 37:58 Yes, yes, we will be live In July, so I've actually already been doing I would say, half of this program, or you know, years now. So it's really just an accumulation of everything that has worked and then really making it personalized. It will be a personalized bonus plan so that you don't have to go find all the healers and ask weird questions and go into crystal shops and feel like you're like, knowing that Unicode Brandon Handley 38:22 gamma system there bro. Unknown Speaker 38:25 Paying the table, you know, it's, it's all designed specifically for you. And actually, it's based on seasonal wellness. So we'll go through different wellness topics that I have found to be transformative in my life based on the seasons and the nature of each season and what you know, I believe that we should be holistically looking at in this season. Brandon Handley 38:44 I love it. I love it on your page. Where do I find you at wellness podcast, you've got your wellness podcast, you offer a free virtual chain training on your site. You've got some meditations on there. You've got books Love I'm gonna go ahead and just say you know playing big by Tara Moore You are a badass by Jensen zero desire map. Which one did you mentioned at the beginning? Right? White Hot Unknown Speaker 39:12 yes white hot truth by Danielle Laporte and she also wrote the desire map and all my clients get the desire map is I guess when they started incredible book, Brandon Handley 39:21 right and I saw you had in your picture untethered soul. So you're Michael singer fan right? Um Have you thought Have you read the surrender experiment? Unknown Speaker 39:31 I haven't, Brandon Handley 39:32 should I? It's interesting. It's actually changed me and just like his his whole concept of it right? is you know, and I actually interviewed this guy named Greg Bernstein. He's like a shaman, you know, God doing vortex tours in Hawaii, and he's much one that I'm not doing any justice. But uh, you know, he, he talks about it too. We talk about la right and we also kind of talk about the constant Have you already have limiting beliefs? Even your most unlimited thought of what you want is pretty limited, right? We think the box is huge, right? But really, we're playing like and like this, this kind of a pixel of it, as it were. So who am I? To go tell the universe what's best for me? Right? And so, Michael singer kind of does it in this way where he says, I'm pretty sure the universe wants what's best for me, but like, even more than I could ever imagine, so I'm just gonna surrender to what the universe has offer. Right? And I was like, I was like, it's pretty potent bro. That's pretty it's pretty, it's pretty big. Right? And then like, his whole story is is pretty interesting. But just like that, that that kind of idea was like, All right. So I wasn't I wasn't sure if you would, you'd read that one what um, you know, so you're doing the cards. What is something that else is kind of like just radically changed your whole life, you know, spiritual journey. or anything that you're doing? What is a book a movie? A song, poem? Whatever. Unknown Speaker 41:06 Yeah, well I'm gonna have that book to my list because I really enjoy that and think I would really really love that so you know what I'm gonna throw this one in there this is probably not what you're expecting doesn't probably didn't sound spiritual it is but just joy and having fun like having so much fun I think spirituality can get so serious you know I'm some meditation is so important getting on my mind doing my yoga practices, but sometimes you just need to go like have a drink with a friend or you know, go do something fun for yourself. So for me, I bought a surfboard recently I used to surf in California. And you know, my commitment is just to make sure that I'm at the beach and then I'm surfing and just really honestly like living a life that I want to live so I'm going to throw in there just fun. Brandon Handley 41:48 No, I love it. I love it And listen, it's actually in the word enlightenment right light, be light, right like just kind of doesn't say and heavy man doesn't say like, you know, and German and like, carry all this heavy shit around with you and be stoic. And so it gets a bad rap too. But I love it though. So no joy. And I like that you use joy over, you know, happiness. I think joy is more sustained. And you know, more recently I heard the definition of happiness is completely external is literally based on happenstance. So the things that are your around and your circumstances, right, I think that joy is something more innate that you can control. So I'll take it. I'll take it. What? Yeah, what would you say? What would you say that we haven't kind of hit on something that you would share? Unknown Speaker 42:40 Yeah, I mean, I don't think we talked too much about how transformational meditation is, I know that you meditate. I think what's really interesting, you know, I'm, I'm a pretty, you know, woowoo spiritual person. But I do also think that research is important and there's so much research behind mindfulness meditation, the practice of meditation that I always And follow is mindfulness meditation. I completed Jon Kabat Zinn's Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction course, through Thomas Jefferson University and it was life changing. You know, bringing mindfulness into your day can be so helpful to help you to access what's really going on. And you know, we both talked about the importance of awareness, right. So getting aware of what's going on through mindfulness is very helpful. Brandon Handley 43:26 You on your podcast, you have a really nice way of kind of putting, like mindfulness and meditation you feel free to share that here, right? Like, it's not necessarily that your mind won't be distracted it instead it will, is to bring it back. So share a little bit of that. Unknown Speaker 43:42 Yeah, I see mindfulness and meditation as a training ground. So it's literally like me going into training and I schedule it in and I'm like, Alright, this is where I train my mind because what happens in that space lasts. Like I said, there's a lot of research around it, but the benefits of meditation last. So for me, I see it as a training. Round. And just like anything that you're training and it takes practice, and it's never going to be to a point where your mind is silent again, bring you back to we're human. But it's about the relationship that you have with your thoughts. So you'll you know, be meditating, your thoughts come up, what is your relationship to them? And what are they showing you and maybe need to go off of the anchor of your breath, if that's what it is, if your anchors your inhale and your exhale, and your body speaking to you and it's like pain or uncomfortability or have this thought, you know, listen to me, then it's kind of working with that and being like, yeah, body Yes, mind. Yes, divine guidance. What are you trying to show me? And that's really where I explore myself and and then also ask for spiritual guidance to Brandon Handley 44:42 follow that. Yeah, you're right. We didn't want to talk about too much. Meditation. The one thing that I learned through meditation, and he talked about unconditional love, right, which to me is kind of synonymous with don't judge like non judgement, right? You're paying attention to your body, but you're not judging it, right? It's like, hey, there's it's acknowledgment. But it's not giving it a good or a bad week, right? Is that what you're saying? Unknown Speaker 45:10 Yeah, absolutely. I think through mindfulness comes it actually research has proven that empathy for others and empathy for yourself, which is the loving kindness and the self compassion, Brandon Handley 45:21 the metta metta meditation, right? And here's what I love about the metta meditation. We spend a lot of time thinking about ourselves. Yeah, right. And this is like an opportunity even like, I'll pull out midday and do like a five minute metta meditation, so I can think of some other people and not think about my own shit. Right? And but but because that's what we do, right? We think about all the stuff that we've got going on for ourselves. So if we can take just five minutes, give ourselves one minute in there, like all right, well, this this, if you're not familiar with meditation, you know, explain the metta meditation real quick for somebody who's never done it. Unknown Speaker 45:56 Sure. So yeah, metta meditation is also known as loving kindness meditation. very accessible, you know, on apps or on YouTube, if you'd like I also have on on my website, it will guide you through a very incredible meditation where you are seeing others in front of you and sending them loving and kind words you also go typically back and forth between sending others loving and kind words, and then you're self loving and kind words. And through that the state of the brain actually changes. And you can see benefits from that very quickly. Brandon Handley 46:27 Yeah, no, it's awesome. And I still remember my first rounds of meditation. I did it headspace. And then I didn't do it for like two weeks. And then I was irritable as hell. And I tracked back I was like, What's different? What's what, what what, you know what I mean? Because I hadn't done it. I was able to track it back to meditation. And I, I'm sure I missed the day here, there, but it's part of my daily life. So if you're an irritable Raji son of a bitch, want to try is meditate Where can we send people to go find you on all the things that you're doing right now? Unknown Speaker 47:11 I am a connector is I would love to connect to the guys chat more about this stuff. I definitely someone that is on Instagram a lot. You can find me at Marissa rose Nash, and my website is the well code.org. I'm also on Facebook at Marissa rose Nash or the welco by Marie rose, so feel free to reach out I do also offer a free 30 minute solo sessions where we explore limiting belief in one of the nine areas of wellness to help you get unstuck and find a little bit of freedom there. Brandon Handley 47:43 Awesome. Well, hey, thanks a lot for stopping by today. Glad you took a chance Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Atrium Health doctor Mark Vanderwel answers questions on the minds of many parents these days. We will be adding a transcription later today. Quick turn around on this episode! If you saw the original Facebook live, skip ahead 17 minutes - it dropped out after some audio issues but Stacey & Mark picked it back up again, off of FB. You can watch the full interview here Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by one drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by real good foods real food you feel good about eating by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Announcer  0:19 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:24 Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the show. So glad to have you here. I hope these episodes are helping. Today we are talking with a pediatric endocrinologist starting off by talking about Covid 19, of course, and things that people with diabetes specifically type one needs to keep in mind but then going down the line of listener questions things that my local Facebook group chimed in with things that the diabetes connections group chimed in with. Because if you're not seeing your endocrinologist for longer than expected, which is the case for a lot of us kids and adults, what should you You'll be doing and that's a lot of what we talked about what to do in between how to make sure that you are taking care of what you need to take care of some things you might not have thought about. And just a great chat with Dr. Mark Vanderwel, this was originally done as a Facebook Live Alright, that's only half the truth. This was originally done as a stream yard which is a an audio and video hosting system hosted Facebook Live, which crapped out halfway through and then mark and I jumped onto zoom and record it that way. So the whole video I kind of stitched it together. The whole video is up on YouTube, on diabetes connections there. It is also on our Facebook page. And here is the audio. That's what we're running is the audio of the initial Facebook Live and then everything that you didn't hear. So if you watch the Facebook Live already, the new stuff is about 17 minutes in from the beginning of the interview. If you want to skip ahead, I'm not coming back at the end of the interview. I do want to say, though, that I appreciate all of the messages I'm getting about, you know, putting out episodes. Look, we're all looking for things to do at our homes. We're all looking for good, reliable information. I am hoping to do more episodes like this more zoom Facebook stuff. So let me know what you'd like to hear. I've also been collecting audio from you from people in the audience. And I'm going to be releasing that episode and kind of figuring out how to use that great audio people just keep me posted on what's happening in their homes and what's on their minds. So I'm not really sticking to a schedule. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry, if you were expecting every episode on Tuesday, and sometimes on Thursdays like we normally do, but I don't know about you. I've already lost all track of days of the week. So we're just gonna put out episodes when they're ready to go. And if you want to still listen on Tuesdays, that's awesome. If you want to let me know that that is or isn't working for you. That's great, too. I just think we all need to be here for each other in these wild times. Thank you so much. All right, so here is my talk with atrium health Dr. Mark Vanderwel, welcome to everybody who is watching. I'm so glad to have you with me for this little bit of an unusual circumstances bear with us. This is the first time I've done something like this. I am Stacey Simms, the host of diabetes connections and with me is Dr. Mark Vanderwel, a pediatric endocrinologist here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area with atrium Health. Dr. Vanderwel. Thanks for joining me,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:26 Stacey. It's an honor as always,   Stacey Simms  3:29 well, we should say before we get going, we do have some disclaimers. But the very first thing in full disclosure that people need to know is that this is my son's endocrinologist and I've known Dr. V, as I've called him many times on the show and in my book for more than 13 years now. So we've never done an interview.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:48 Yeah. At least recorded interview for for diabetes connections. We did some back in your radio days. Oh, that's right.   Stacey Simms  3:56 Yeah, I thought you were implying that I like interviewed you when I All right.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:02 So it has been a long time since we've communicated it never on this platform.   Stacey Simms  4:05 Well, I really appreciate you jumping in because as you know, people have a lot of questions nervous times right now. So the The first thing we need to do is is do some disclaimers, obviously, while Dr. Vanderwel is our pediatric endocrinologist, he is not yours. So please, any comments questions that you may have addressed them to your own physician as well? Nothing I will put words in your mouth here, nothing that Dr. Vanderwel says today should be taken as your own personal medical advice. We're here to get general answers to general questions. And that's really about it. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, I think. But as you listen and watch at home, just you know, let's use some common sense here.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:43 Yes, I'm not speaking for the pediatric endocrinology community in general. I'm speaking for myself and different physicians have different perspectives on how they take care of kids with diabetes. Different physicians will have different perspectives on Covid 19. And what I am saying is my perspective And it will not even apply universally to all of the patients I take care of because we know you are all different. Similarly, I am not a pediatric infectious disease specialist. I'm not I am not an epidemiologist, and I'm not a fortune teller. And I think we're all worried and we do not know what's going to happen in the future. And a lot of what we're talking about is just predictive, then we don't know.   Stacey Simms  5:21 All right, so good things to keep in mind. Also, this is first being broadcast live on Facebook. If for some reason as you're watching it, just bonks out or something crazy happens. We're recording the audio, this will be rebroadcast as a podcast, it may be broadcast in video in some other forms. If you have questions or comments. We're using technology called stream yard, and I can see your comments on Facebook, but we're not actually on Facebook. So there's a big delay, most likely, so bear with us. And I do have a lot of questions that I took in advance. So if we don't get to your question today, I promise it may not be with Dr. Vanderwel schedules permitting, but we are going to be addressing Senior questions going forward. And you know, we're just here to see what we can do. So we want to just jump right in. Sure. Let's go. All right. So my first question is really just about what you're hearing these days because I'm talking to you at home, you're not in the office offices is closed, but are you still getting close? Okay, so what are people asking?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  6:16 Yeah, so, you know, I think the the primary things are, will we still have appointments? And the answer is we will eventually have virtual appointments. Although a lot of people will also need to be rescheduled, we don't only take care of kids with diabetes, and there are some conditions that we do need to see face to face. In general though, I think most of our kids with Type One Diabetes will be able to seen by a virtual visit, and we'll talk a little bit about that in just a minute. We do still have nurses answering phone calls in our office, I'm not sure what other offices are doing. So we have nurses answering phone calls. We have a physician that's on call 24 seven for hospital based medicine. And so we will we are creating a schedule. That's why our office is closed. We're working on developing virtual visits. And we've never done this before the platform that atrium uses was originally designed for perhaps five, six pediatricians to use to handle only general pediatric calls. And now this platform is being spread out to be used by pediatric specialists, as well as general pediatricians. And I think more than 100 physicians and, uh, and other providers are going to be on this platform. So we're still learning how to do it. And that's why we canceled appointments for a few weeks, but we will have virtual visits up and running hopefully, by next week, Tuesday,   Stacey Simms  7:34 because we're going to be in that soup, right? Yeah.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:38 Your name on my schedule when I was telling everyone that exactly.   Stacey Simms  7:43 Alright, well, I won't call your office and ask what you're doing with me. I will let them reach out to us. When you're talking about virtual and again, this is kind of specific to your office. I don't even know yet. Do we on the other side have to do anything yet or you'll read? Yeah, we'll watch. No,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:58 we we Will for our type one diabetes patients will likely have a medical assistant call you first maybe on the day of the appointment maybe beforehand to review any changes in medications, any new allergies, the types of things they usually ask you while they were checking you back in. And then in preparation for the phone call with a physician, we are going to ask you to gather diabetes data for us whether it's a pump, download a CGM, download a meter download, and that'll be the main thing that we as physicians will review. So we'll tell you more. We'll try to talk through a little bit more about how to do that. Although hopefully you all know how to do that. The physician will also will hopefully again, this is all new. We'll have all that information online.   Stacey Simms  8:42 If you're watching, you kind of saw me roll my eyes there. Dr. Vanderwel knows this but it's a little embarrassing to admit, I never upload anything in advance. I tell them please don't be mad at me. I think the only time I ever logged into T Connect is to upgrade the pump. So   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  8:57 well you know, I think the thing is, we We'll be able to get that data without, without advanced uploading, I don't want to come that 100%. But I think if your data is there, we should be able to access it. But we're gonna learn that over the next three to five days.   Stacey Simms  9:12 That's what we're all be learning it, I am sure. Um, in terms of questions that people have in between these appointments, you know, one that came to mind this morning was, you know, if I, if I need refills, if I'm worried about supplies, are you here? I know most people just call their physician pharmacies are open, but are you hearing anything about issues, shortages, that sort of thing with supplies   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  9:35 whatsoever, and I hope we don't, um, you know, Covid 19 is going to affect people in every sector. And I hope we don't get to a stage where there's problems with pharmaceutical production at this point, there is no anticipated problem with production of insulin production of test strips production with any other diabetes related spies. And so No, I do not foresee that as a problem. I know there's the temptation to stockpile And that's one of the things that we've seen in the general public, obviously, with toilet paper, hand sanitizer, etc. And there's that desire Should I stockpile my insulin? Well, we can't commit insurance fraud. And so as physicians, I cannot write a prescription to your pharmacy saying suddenly that a child who used to use 20 units of insulin a day is all of a sudden requiring 200 units of insulin per day, so that your insurance will cover additional insulin, I can't do that. That's illegal. And so we will be honest with the pharmacies. I'm not sure how you can get extra insulin just in case that might be something better to work with your pharmacy in terms of what they will cover or what they will allow your insurance to cover. But I do not foresee a deficiency in any diabetes related supplies.   Stacey Simms  10:45 Let's jump in and talk about Covid 19 best that we can. One of the questions that seems to be coming up over and over again is you know, we've all seen in the early days of this at least, the charts that came in from China and Italy saying they're the comorbidities and diabetes Sure, can you do you know what that means? Because one of the questions was, is it all type two is it you know, work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  11:06 Right so earlier this morning I saw some data recently published in the New England Journal of Medicine related to the children 10 and under. And the only fatality in the Chinese data that was published was a 10 month old, who had had intussusception, which is basically when your intestines telescope on each other. And so the child was already previously ill because of that, and there were no other fatalities in that population under age 10. I do not have the data for other age groups stratified out but that was what I saw on the New England Journal of Medicine earlier today. When the word diabetes is used, obviously, that is a big word and often refers to both type one and type two diabetes. And so as far as I can tell from all the Chinese data, when it says diabetes is referring to the big group of both and everyone's worried at greater risk, because I have type one diabetes, or let's face it type two diabetes? And the answer is, we do not think that people with type one or type two diabetes are at any greater risk of contracting Covid 19 than the general population. So there's no increased risk of picking up this virus as far as we know. Now data changes every day. That's the caveat here. We are still learning but at this point, there's no reason to think that people with diabetes type one or two are more likely to get Covid 19. Just like any virus, whether it's the flu, whether it's the cold, being sick, when you have diabetes makes taking care of diabetes more difficult, and we see that frequently during flu season, that when people are feeling sick, and they may not be eating or drinking quite as well, they have the predisposition to go into diabetic ketoacidosis. And so my answer to how do people with type one diabetes are people who have children who have type one diabetes, better take care of their children, either if They have been exposed to the virus or if they are already showing symptoms of a viral infection. And the answer is us you're sick. And by Sick Day protocol, I mean check for ketones. Even if your child's blood sugar is 124, you can still get ketones if they are not eating or drinking very well. So remember, ketones are what happened, or what happens when your muscles become desperate for energy. And usually with people with diabetes that happens when you don't have enough insulin in your system to help your body take the sugar out of the bloodstream and get it into the muscle cell to be used for energy. But sometimes ketones can happen if you're just not eating or drinking very well. And so ketones can happen even with a blood sugar 124 if your child has been sick, or if she is vomiting or if he is not eating very well because he feels sick. ketones also can be happening more often in the presence of fever. So although as far as we know right now, nausea and vomiting are not necessarily symptoms of Covid 19 like they are the flu. For example, fever is When you develop fever, that can also cause greater metabolic need, your muscles become more desperate for energy that can lead to the production of ketones and cause an increased risk of diabetic ketoacidosis. So my summary is related to kovat, 19 and diabetes, your child is not at greater risk, their immune system should still work just fine to fight off the virus However, they are at greater risk for developing diabetic ketoacidosis in the context of a viral illness.   Stacey Simms  14:29 A couple of follow up questions on that with keep checking for ketones. Do you recommend a keto blood meter? Are you comfortable with sticks and easily?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  14:40 Yeah, I mean, most people check urine for ketones a blood ketone meter can give you more up to date information, for example, that tells you what's in your blood sugar level. That's what's in your blood right now. Whereas your urine is often saying, well, we made this urine an hour ago and it's been sitting in the bladder for an hour so it's not as up to date as before. glucometer as a blood ketone meter is, but still I think you can get the information you need from, from urine, ketosis, I don't feel you have to rush out and get a blood ketone checker just because of our current situation. I mean,   Stacey Simms  15:13 I'll be honest with you, and I don't know if this is true confessions time, we've never we've never purchased a blood ketones. This was the time I thought maybe, you know, the back of my head was like, should I get on Amazon? And then I got on Amazon, and there were so many and I thought, oh my god, I'm gonna buy a terrible one. So, um, stick with what we know maybe for me?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:31 Yeah, I mean, there are many other things to worry about. And if you felt comfortable checking your child's urine for ketones, there's no need to suddenly change to use a blood glucose blood ketone meter.   Stacey Simms  15:42 Well, he's 15. So maybe,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:43   Stacey Simms  15:46 I'm sorry, this if you're just joining us, we did have a bunch of disclaimers that this is not medical advice you should be taking personally, but this is my son's pediatric endocrinologist. So I might sneak in some personal questions. We'll see. But the follow up question. fever. And then I'm going to ask you that question about repro fantasy. Before I even get to that one, do you recommend? I've heard that sometimes it's better to let the fever go, you know, not to 104 but to 101, things like that.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  16:17 That is a great question Stacy and I am no longer a general I should say this. I am board certified in general pediatrics, but I have not practiced general pediatrics for 15 years. However, that all being said, fevers makes you uncomfortable. When your temperature is high, you don't feel good, but many people are excessively afraid of fever as something that can hurt you, either in the short term or the long term and in general fever just makes you uncomfortable. So when we're sick, and we have a fever, we often for other illnesses have taken an antibiotic whether it's acetaminophen, whether it's ibuprofen, and what some, some French suggested Scientists have suggested is that ibuprofen and other anti inflammatories may blunt your immune response as of right now that information what's the exact word I had it pulled up is still up for debate. It is not necessarily something that is. That is a stocking answer that we say you must not use ibuprofen in the case of a fever related to Covid 19 unproven was the word I was looking for unproven so let's let's get the elephant out of the bag. What is killing people with Covid 19 is not fever. What is killing people with Covid 19 is respiratory distress is the inability to get breath in and children with diabetes are at no greater risk for developing that than children who don't have diabetes when it comes terms in terms of managing fever. Yes, ibuprofen is a anti inflammatory, ibuprofen at this point. We don't know if it's safe or not. My recommendation, though, is is to say, you know, we want to make sure you're drinking. We want to make sure you can keep fluids down. And if you are so uncomfortable that you can't drink or keep fluids down because of the high fever, then yes, we probably should treat the fever and at first maybe you treat with IV or with acetaminophen. But if all you have is ibuprofen, and you're you're miserable, at this point, it's still unproven that ibuprofen will make Covid 19 worse or prevent you to impair your ability to fight it off.   Stacey Simms  18:27 Well, and will continue to follow that obviously,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:29 just new information.   Stacey Simms  18:31 It's unproven, but I mean, I can't lie. I still you know, I take ibuprofen here and there I immediately was like, No, because it's it's scary.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:39 Sure. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  18:41 I went and checked everything in the house. How much acetaminophen do we have? What What else? Oh, because acetaminophen isn't so many cold medicines, sir. Let me ask you that people with type one and type two people with diabetes. Let's just say that who use CGM know that with Tylenol acetaminophen come warnings with death. calm. Now my understanding is Dexcom je six you can take 1000 milligrams of Tylenol safely by safely means it's not going to burn out your sensor you can is nothing to do with them anything beyond the sensor we're talking about here is that what you were understanding?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:15 My understanding and just for clarification even in previous versions of Dexcom if you're using g five if you're using g four acetaminophen does not prevent it from working. It just may mean the readings it gives you are not as accurate as they might be without acetaminophen in your system. But that's also my understanding for the for the Dexcom g six,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:35 just think or stick. Agreed?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:37 Yeah, if you feel your ducks comm isn't accurate whether you have acetaminophen on board or whether you don't have acetaminophen on board, poke your finger.   Stacey Simms  19:46 Right? Which means that a lot of people need to make sure that not only do we have a meter and test strips, but that we have the batteries or that our stuff is plugged in because um I know A lot of us are very reliant on CGM. Let's just put it that way. And I'm looking at my phone, not to be rude, but to look at the next few questions. So as you're watching,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:10 I know you go Okay, fair enough.   Stacey Simms  20:15 That was more for these guys. But seriously, um, I'm curious too, with, with not knowing when many of us will see our children's, endo next, or if we're adults are watching. Are there things that we should be doing? To check in between? I mean, I know that I'll give you an example. You always check penny for you know, scar tissue.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:40 Right? Like lipohypertrophy. Exactly. Okay,   Stacey Simms  20:42 so go for it. Tell us what we do. Yeah,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:43 so, so lipohypertrophy is when you will put your infusion side in the same place too often, or you give yourself insulin injections in the same place too often. And the downside of that is not only does it look funny, but it can prevent the insulin that you give yourself from getting into The bloodstream, and then it doesn't get from the bloodstream to the eventual target tissues of liver and muscle. So if you are thinking you're giving yourself a bolus, but you're giving it giving it into an area of life or hypertrophy, then perhaps the insulin isn't doing what it needs to do. And that can obviously be dangerous and increase your risk of decay. So, yes, I do think that parents should be checking your child for life or hypertrophy in the same way that their endocrinologist probably does regularly. And the thing that I would probably say is, the easiest way to do is just make sure it doesn't feel like a tricep, you know, flex your tricep right here. And you can feel a little bit of muscle tissue right there. And light by hypertrophy feels a lot like that. It feels kind of clumpy. It doesn't hurt the child, but it feels it like oh, it seems like there's a big clump of subcutaneous tissue here. You can even see like oh hypertrophy a lot of times and I might wind up doing that when I'm doing virtual visits is just have the kid in the room and say, Show me where you Put your palm but just look to make sure it's not looking clumpy now, I'm not going to do anything. Like make them show me their family or anything like that. But you know, their arms, their belly, that sort of stuff. Yeah, I might do that at the opposite.   Stacey Simms  22:13 That makes a lot of sense, though. You know. And another thing I was looking at my list of questions when we were talking about supplies, one of the interesting things is people seem to be posting quite a bit about not being able to get those little alcohol wipes. Yeah, we haven't used those in a very   religiously for years. Sure, sure. Is that something people need to be concerned about? Should I be getting out the rubbing alcohol and checking to make sure as a pediatric   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  22:36 endocrinologist I should say the standard line Yes, the proper protocol for either giving an insulin injection or putting a new infusion site in or putting a new Dexcom in or poking a finger is to wipe that area with alcohol first. That being said, You are probably not the only family. I take care of Stacy where your child does not use rubbing out Color an alcohol swab every time. So yes, we want clean skin. We know that giving an injection or anything that punctures the skin. without alcohol, there is a slightly increased risk of getting an infected site. There's bacteria everywhere. Obviously there are viruses everywhere. But when we're thinking about using alcohol swabs, we're thinking about killing the bacteria on the skin or removing the bacteria from the skin so that you can give a cleaner injection, or a cleaner infusion site or a cleaning Dexcom or cleaner Dexcom site etc. So if you can't get alcohol swabs, you still need to give your child insulin and you still need to figure out what her blood sugar is. So all in all, what's better to give a shot with alcohol to give a shot without alcohol swabs or to give no shot at all. They go in that order best is with second best is without third best is no insulin at all in that's not best. That's bad news. So   Stacey Simms  24:00 So, you know, another thing, that I have a whole bunch of questions here that I'm trying to get to the right order to go in,   when, when we're talking about these in between visits for a long time, and again, I know that you may be limited as what you can say, because we are talking in official capacity. So some of this is on, you know, I don't say on the record off the record, but you'll understand. So there are a lot of people who are very comfortable adjusting pump settings. Sure. There are a lot of people who aren't, you know, what's your advice for a family? And this was a question that came up in our group. I'll say, Michelle asked this, how do you advise or empower, newer diagnose parents on taking pump settings into their own hands? You know, are there ways to tell when something is a basal issue or a QRP? Sure.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  24:46 Yeah, so first of all, I'm speaking for myself, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there. I feel comfortable with my patients adjusting insulin settings without my permission, you do not need my permission to adjust your pump settings or your insulin dose. Is, however other pediatric endocrinologist may feel differently. I'm not speaking for all of us. In general, if your basal rate needs adjustment, that means that your child has been going a long time without eating. And her blood sugar either goes up, or her blood sugar goes down in the absence of all other factors. Best time is overnight. So if your kids waking up with a high blood sugar in the morning or higher than it was when he went to bed, that probably means he needs more basal. If he's waking up with a lower blood sugar than it was when he went to bed in the absence of the correction dose at nighttime, then chances are he needs less basal insulin. And kind of the same thing goes for carb coverage, if you notice every time after a meal, and I'm not talking about just that postprandial spike on a Dexcom because that is related not to the insulin quantity but to the timing of the insulin absorption. But let's say two hours, three hours, three and a half hours after every meal. If your kids blood sugar is going up that means That she needs a stronger carbohydrate factor. And remember, Stacy, I know you've written about this in your book, the factor is the denominator, right. So of insulin to carb ratio of one to 10 is stronger than insulin to carb ratio of one to 15. It's the denominator of the fraction. Similarly, for the instant correction factor, if you're giving a dose of insulin through the pump, or through the sliding scale that you've written down, and your child's blood sugar doesn't come far enough, universally, don't make adjustments based on just one thing, let her wait for a pattern to develop. But if you're noticing that you're that your child's blood sugar never comes down far enough after you give them a correction dose. That means let's make the correction factor stronger. And by that I mean maybe change it from 60 to 50, or from 50 to 40 or from 40 to 35, etc. Vice versa, if you are scared to to give a correction dose because your child's blood sugar because it doesn't come in or comes down too far after for extra dose that make it a little weaker. And by doing that I've seen baby move it from 50 to 60 From 60 to 75, or 75 to 90, etc.   Stacey Simms  27:04 So if you're watching this, and I covered my face and kind of made a joke, the reason is because in the book, I do talk about this, but I have definitely made the mistake of thinking that a smaller number meant less insulin.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  27:18 So it is confusing. It is it, just think about it in terms of the denominator of the fraction, a half a pizza is bigger than a quarter of a pizza, even though two is smaller than four.   Stacey Simms  27:30 You know, and that brings, I know this, this interview is getting a little bit away from Covid 19. But we've got plenty of time to talk about that. The just a follow up on the calling your physician and you know, there are a lot of wonderful presenters like yourself, who will take a call every day for a month from a nervous mom of a newly diagnosed kid. But there are a lot of parents who worry that they're bothering the doctor for things like that. Obviously, it never bothered me. But all kidding aside, can you assure people that if they're calling for instance adjustments that   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  28:00 it's okay. Yeah, it is absolutely. Okay. Like I said, I want you to feel empowered to do that on your own. But if you need help, we are there to help. And my office still has CDs answering the phone during daytime hours, you can take blood sugars and help make adjustments. The physician on call over the night or weekend can also do that, although it's probably easier to do that during office hours while we have CDs answering the phone because they can pull up the child's chart whereas if you call me on a Saturday afternoon, I'm not going to have your child's chart at my fingertips to make those adjustments. So yes, but please don't feel you are on your own. And please don't feel you are bothering us. Yes, when we take call. We also are seeing patients in the hospital and we are usually seeing patients in the office although now we may be doing more virtual visits. We are doing other things. It's not like all we do is just feel phone calls. We are doing other things and so we appreciate that one. If it's not an emergency, if it can wait until morning. That'd be great to wait until more But there are emergencies. And we also understand that when people have a child with diabetes, they worry at three o'clock in the morning, and if they're worried enough, please call us. Yes, that's what we're there for. But remember, we also are not general pediatricians. And so when it comes to Covid 19, if you are worried that potentially your child may have been 19, that is a better question for your primary care provider rather than us. We are not your general pediatricians. However, if you're feeling like your child was getting sick, and you're having trouble managing their blood sugar's because they're sick. That's a question for us.   Stacey Simms  29:32 Well, and that was what I was just going to ask if someone says, Oh my gosh, I think my child has Covid 19 and they have type one diabetes, what would you advise them to do?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  29:43 I think we're still learning more and more, you know, testing is not really readily available and everything that I've heard about testing to this point, it's been difficult to get a test now hopefully, that'll change soon. Um, and However, our primary care providers are at the frontline of giving of getting people coded testing. figuring out who needs to be tested? So I would defer that question to your primary care office because they will have the most up to date answers about whether you should simply, well, we should all be quarantined ourselves, right, we should all be practicing social isolation, but especially if you have any suspicion that you or your child has Covid 19 you need to stay in your house. And you do not need to expose any other people to this. So in that situation, though, whether do you bring your kid for a Covid 19 test? Or do you just try to isolate them and pray that they get better and again, they should I mean, kids with type one diabetes are not at greater risk for developing Covid 19 or having the respiratory complications, it just makes them more likely to get ketones. So anyway, um, if your kids healthy enough to just stay at home and continue that quarantine. Right now, that's probably what we're recommending, although things may change anytime,   Stacey Simms  30:57 and I guess you've answered this, but I'm going to ask them Again, just in a different way, to be perfectly clear the evidence as we're speaking right now, would say that if a child comes down with Covid 19 has type one diabetes, there is nothing different   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  31:11 to ground at home. Just Just differently from a diabetes management perspective perspective, make sure they're hydrated check for ketones if they're actually acting sick, even if their blood sugar seems fine. Um, follow your sick day protocol. But yes, nothing different compared to your other children who might not have type one diabetes.   Stacey Simms  31:32 Um, something else I wanted to ask. Gosh, I should have closed the blinds. Whoo. It's getting hot in here. One of the things I meant to ask when you talked about the time in between visits because I had a lot of questions on this in our Facebook group. People are saying like me, Benny's appointment was supposed to be in two weeks, we'll do a virtual visit, but I assume we're not going to get that a one. See that? We usually get quarterly.   Do you? Look we have a CGM so I can see what it probably is. But do you ever recommend a homemade one T tests.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  32:01 Okay, you and I, about a one says yes, yes. So again, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there, but people definitely overrate the importance of A1C, and so many people come into my office on pins and needles because they're so nervous about what that number is going to be in. As we've said before, you've heard me say it. And I think that's one of the reasons you and I get along so well is because we have a similar perspective, and everyone has different perspectives. But my perspective is, the ANC is just a number. And it's right now the best number we can get in a six minute turnaround test, tell us to summarize blood sugars, but it's just that it's just a number. And as we have more CGM data available, I think we're going to learn that time and range, maybe an even better predictor of avoidance of long term complications, because that's what we're talking about, right? We're talking about not necessarily trying to get your kids A1C to be less than x. We We are talking about trying to help your child be as healthy as she can be when she is 85 or 90 years old, right? And so it's not about the agency, there are plenty of kids I take care of where I'm worried. This kids having way too many low blood sugars, it's affecting their lifestyle. And I'd be much happier if they're a once you jumped up a half point or a full point if they had fewer low blood sugars. So my perspective on it once you may be different than many of my colleagues, I don't think it's worth it for you to check anyone see in the middle of between office visits, especially if you have the capability of looking at a continuous glucose monitoring system that can tell you time and rich.   Stacey Simms  33:38 Is it homey? Once the test even accurate? I've always wondered about   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  33:41 Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I have not seen I'm sure there are studies out there comparing the home a woman c test to a serum drawn that means coming from your arm type of A1C test versus a finger poke A1C test, which we do in our office. Um, I honestly have not looked at those studies, so I can't answer your question. But my guess is yes, it's probably pretty close. Okay, so   Stacey Simms  34:04 I have another one. You know, all these people in my group know you very well. And the question, I've lost the question, Where did I put it? Ah, here it is. Okay. So it's a two parter. The first part is all about technology. Have you mentioned time and range? You mentioned CGM advice for parents. This is a question who says, Are we overly reliant on technology? Or is that a thing? Does she need to worry about being isolated? If something doesn't work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  34:35 Yeah, I mean, you use what you have. I mean, we didn't have dex comes when Benny was first diagnosed. We didn't have insulin pumps, when I was, you know, or there were they were out there, but they were not commonly used when I was a resident. Um, when my senior partner Dr. Parker was doing his medical school, they didn't even have finger stick blood sugars, right. And so diabetes management is changing and we not relying on technology, but the technology has been good. And it's helped make diabetes easier, not a cure, but a little easier unless you become a slave to that technology. And you can definitely overreact to the readings on a Dexcom. I know plenty of people who will not put their phone away because they always want to know what every second what their child's blood sugar is. And that's not healthy either.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:22 I know what you're talking about.   Stacey Simms  35:26 I'm only half kidding. But yeah, nothing really can be a problem. I think the bottom line for that too, is if as you're listening, you think, gosh, I don't even know where our meter is. Or do I have test strips? You know, that's the kind of thing that you'll definitely want   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:40 to check but you do need to have a beat. You need to have a meter even when your child wears a Dexcom or a Libra or Medtronic CGM. You will need a backup way to check blood sugar. So yes, please have a meter and strips and lancets that's the finger poker available.   Stacey Simms  35:55 lancets we all have 5000 of those.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:57 Yes.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:59 Last question was Do bow ties help you in your practice?   Stacey Simms  36:03 choice only.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  36:04 So, my grandfather always wear bow ties, you actually might be able to see him right over here at Grand Prix right over there over my shoulder. Always wear bow ties. Um, and so I got that from him. Um, and someone said, I looked smarter when I bought a bow tie. And I was like, you know, great. I like looking smart, even though I so, but to be honest, yes, um, especially in this age of viral transmission, you're probably not going to see me wear a tie when we do a virtual visit. And you may not see me wear a tie as much in the office in the near future. The reason that many of the pediatricians through Boston Children's Hospital other of the older pediatricians wear bow ties rather than long straight ties is because there's less germs from this than there are from something dangling and so I will for virtual visits, I probably will not I almost certainly will not have a bow tie on and for the for visiting the office, I probably won't either just to have one less thing on mice around me that can collect your   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:06 which is your grandfather in the medical field or, you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:09 know, furniture industry.   Stacey Simms  37:13 All right. So before I let you go, because this is the first time I've ever had you on the podcast, hopefully not the last. But you know, it was in the interest of kind of feeling a little strange about, you know, that kind of relationship, my son's endocrinologist and that sort of thing. But now, I this has been great.   I'm curious, you know, you've been in practice for us at 15 years. I finished   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:34 my fellowship in 2005. So this is this will be my 15th. year as of July one or the end of my 15th year.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:42 Yeah, we caught you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:44 right at the beginning. Right, exactly. You were one of my may not my very first but one of my first patients now, I shouldn't say that. But yeah,   Stacey Simms  37:51 I mean, in the first couple of years,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:52 right, exactly in the first few years. Exactly. So   Stacey Simms  37:54 I'm curious, you know, it's hard to sum up in just a few minutes, but from then to now. already mentioned the technology have things. It's kind of a pet question. I was gonna say, Have you seen things change, but I really want to know, like, how is it to be a pediatric endocrinologist from then to now? I mean, it's got to be difficult with insurance things and all that sort of stuff. But are you still happy? This is a field you chose?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  38:20 Yes. I love my job. I love taking care of kids with diabetes. I kids with diabetes are only about 30 to 35% of my patient volume. And so I take care of 60% of other kids that I also love taking care of. It's the dream job. And yeah, I did not grow up thinking I wanted to be a pediatric endocrinology. I didn't know I really wanted to be a doctor. When I was in high school. I mean, there are some people that say they knew it from age two for me, that was not the case. But every step along the way, I've kind of thought yeah, maybe I do want to be a doctor. And then I go to medical school and yeah, maybe I do want to be a pediatrician and then I do my pediatric rescue. See and yeah maybe I do want to become a pediatric specialist etc so each step has kind of led me along the way and it's been a great choice I love taking care of your own as well as the all the other kids that I take care of. It's a dream job except for the paperwork.   Stacey Simms  39:15 Alright, so I'll check in with you again if I can during this time who knows how long we're going to be at home you guys doing? Okay, you can have your own everybody   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  39:22 do everyone's healthy. You know? I mean I I'm worried I mean, not about my kids not necessarily about my health I mean when one of those middle age brackets right but I'm worried about my parents, my grandparents who are still alive, you know, I'm, I am worried about I'm worried about the economy of not only our country, but the world I'm worried about, about the financial well being of my patients, even though I'm you can kind of get the sense I'm not really all that worried about the health of my patients with Covid 19 as long as they Following Sick Day protocols and but that doesn't mean go out and get exposed because obviously we need to contain this virus. I am worried about our world. But I'm not necessarily worried about the children that I take care of related to cope with it and I just don't want them spreading this terms to their grandparents.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:17 I think you're absolutely right on that. Well, we will leave it there. And hopefully we can check back in and I will see you for a virtual visit. I'm sure we'll be hearing from   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:28 that.   Stacey Simms  40:31 But I do appreciate it. Thank you so much.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:33 Yes, thanks for getting the word out states you remember, wash your hands stay inside socially distinct yourselves.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:41 But don't forget to call your parents all the people you love.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:50 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All Rights Reserved or wrongs avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

All right. Welcome back. It's gut check project, Episode Number 33. I'm here with your host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. I'm Eric Rieger. Dr. Brown. What's happening In a day?Not much I tell you what, this is really cool Episode 33. It's you and I know guest because we got to cover some serious science. Yeah, we do. A lot of people want to know what happens whenever you take certain things that works as post biotics, not just probiotics, but what do I do to feed my bacteria? And is that even number one? Is that even a real thing? What's a post biotic? Do I care what happens with the foods that I eat and what my bacteria does with it? And if I do, what's happening? so I'm going to, we're going to deep into deep into, we're going to dive in deep into some awesome science about what happens when we take care of our bodies, bacteria. Well, the reason why I wanted to get into this is that we got tons of feedback on the fecal microbial transplant episode. And then of course, when we had Panez on here talking about Crohn's disease. Yeah. So one of our viewers, Don sent me a message that basically said, so I'm more confused than ever. What do we do now? I started looking into it, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, now I know why so many things happen to poor Heli I, we're going to talk about that we're going to look into this, and hopefully clear up a few things. But I love the fact that we have viewers that are calling in be like, great episode, but now I'm more confused now and you know, follow it up. So that's what we're going to do today we're going to follow it up and talk about how Heli and Panez that has groans and Ellie, with her horrible autoimmune disease and everything like that with her fecal microbial transplant. I'm now starting to put the pieces together. I'm moving this big bubble of Venn diagrams, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, this is here. So that's what we're going to do today. Your job because I mean, when I mean, I got excited, like, I my hair started going up in my arms. I was like, it's there. We're missing this. What I'm going to do right now is talking about some stuff that probably should have been put together before or maybe it has been maybe, but I looked at a lot of research I spent I just went down rabbit holes, and I'm kind of excited to talk about it.Well, it's awesome. It's easy to do. I can tell you that I would imagine that we're probably going to talk about not only post biotics, but some really cool names like short chain fatty acids, right? We're going to head that direction?We're going to talk about that ..PolyphenolsWe're going to talk about SIBO, its IBS, all that stuff. PolyphenolsThis is gonna be a great episode. If you if you if you're truly interested in gut health, you cannot ever stop expanding your knowledge and understanding why people say, health begins and ends in the gut. If there's a reason why that people who change your diet feel better, and this is what we're going to talk about today, so.. Yeah, totally. But you know, but before we get into that, we're not just, we're not just podcast nerds. I have a life. Okay. I'm pretty excited. I went and I did Rachel Sheers podcast, Sheer Madness. With her little Frenchie thingy Bulldog, yeah, called Lily. And so we went and did that. That's gonna launch here pretty soon, but you can see pictures of that. So that's cool. Um, and I also feel like I've been working too hard and people ask me, they're like, you know, do you have a hobby I'm like, wow, I'm..No so I was watching 60 minutes and I don't know why I'm turning into my dad. We're now I watch 60 minutes on Sundays and rather enjoy it. But I'm gonna pick up falconry. In fact, I've picked up falconry.That's amazing. You've already done it in such a short amount of Yeah, specifically Golden Eagle falconry. OkayYeah. So basically I watched a 60 minute episode and Mongolia Nomads depend on animals to get other animals because they have no agriculture. So what they do is they make this bond with golden eagles and they use them to hunt other animals for them. And they've been doing this for thousands of years. Well, there's a woman named Lauren McGough. She's a PhD, she traveled to Mongolia. She's from Oklahoma. Oh, wow. Yeah, like, imagine having that conversation with your dad. You're like, I'm gonna go to Mongolia. But she's from Oklahoma. She found this old book on Eagle hunters. And she's like I'm gonna go do this. So she figured out that this is such a unique way of living where you live in unison with the animals. So she went there, she captured her own Golden Eagle bonded with it, and then became part of their tribe and hunted with this thing. Wow. And then has come back and it's been like, you know, a conservationist and she's a PhD and she lectures and all this other stuff. So these things, she owns her own eagle and what they do is they there's, they describe how you actually get it, but it's safe and everything in the ego bonds and then they let the ego go, like you're back out in the wild. I'm done with young either, you know, do you want to leave like when the ego wants to leave, it just leaves, but it hangs out so they can fly 50 miles an hour, and they can see seven times better than a human. And then they let it go. So anyways, I got into it. So I got my first Golden Eagle. And I've been trying to do this, but it just keeps bringing the neighbor's cat to me. Yeah It's not working the way it did on 60 minutes.While like he keeps bringing the neighbor's cat so it's unharmed, which is really really sweet.Totally unharmed. It's it's a completely loving eagle, the cat loves it. I just pet it for a little while. Yeah. Then it delivers it back to the neighbor. I don't know where the neighbor is.. Could be different city who knows? Travels 50 miles an hour. It's common knowledge of birds of prey just don't ever hurt anything. They just want to show it to somebody. So that's my hobby. Yeah, interesting. I can't even match that. So probably not going to the boys are about Star basketball playoffs. So that's what we're getting fired up to do. weekend was nice. Did some camping Saturday, Saturday evening. Woke up to beautiful sunrise Sunday. It was it was awesome. And that really kind of what we did this weekend is can take it easy. So..Good for you. Taking it easy is good. I want to bring up one in the news article that I saw because pretty cool. Yeah. All right. You're gonna love this. Just published this month, actually. It was published the February 14th. So in the news, the American Heart Association published a study out of Northwestern on peace. With peripheral artery disease PAD, also known as PVD, peripheral vascular disease. Now peripheral vascular disease or arterial disease is a narrowing of the arteries that reduces the blood flow from the heart. So the further away from the heart. Imagine you have coronary artery disease. Same thing happens all over the body... But the further away it gets, it can actually affect people where you can't walk very, very far and it affects over 8.5 million people 40 years of age or older nationwide. It's a big deal. Sure. So this is so cool. In a small study of 44 people at Northwestern University of patients over the age of 60. They gave them a beverage drink containing flavonoid rich cocoa.Interesting.They gave them cocoa and then they added some epigalic tannins to it. Hmm, sound familiar?Thats polyphenol people right there polyphenols, they gave people polyphenols the American Heart Association is now starting to catch up they're, I think watching the podcast. I'm sure they are. I think they are. So basically what they did is they showed that people that took this three times a day for six months, which shows that it is a supplement three times a day in a cardiac diseased laden population, ... no side effects... three times a day, six months, and they improved their six minute walking test compared to those who drank the same number and type of beverages without the supplement.It's funny you say that because people who have serious complications with diabetes that ends up with PVD or PAD, oftentimes, they end up doing that walking test, especially if they have numbness in their feet, or they notice that they have sores on their toes that they're unaware, but a family member sees, right?YeahSo just a side note, if you happen to have diabetes, it may, it may behoove you to keep up with your polyphenol intake daily.And it also may behoove you to listen to the rest of this podcast because I'm going to get some cool stuff but so look at this.. so you're like, Okay, well what does that mean? So if I drink cocoa notes cocoa enriched with epigalic, tannins, same tannins that we have in Atrantil the right part, those are the polyphenols. So those that drank this, they improve their muscle function over the placebo. But what's really cool is they showed that they did muscle biopsies and they showed increased mitochondrial activity. It improved the mitochondria increase the blood flow through through..The mitochondria what are you saying?No, no, it increase the blood flow because of the polyphenols through..?ArterialDilation, because of nitric oxide production. Okay Everything that we've been talking about.I know he's teeing me up folks, I really hate them. Because there was lots of through there and andYeah, I'm just just follow this basically.. We now have scientific reasons why polyphenols improved sports performance, okay. It affects mitochondria and it increases the blood flow. Now we're into a much better realm. And I understand the categories that we're in because we've multiple times referenced the studies that Joe Botel from from England was talked specifically about increasing nitric oxide, specifically in athletes to increase blood flow, increased performance, etc. So sorry, I didn't see the T up there.Well, this is what's so beautiful. We always talk about, you know, athletic performance. Now we're talking disease. Now we're saying that, okay, yes, if you're a triathlete, or if you're a marathon runner, but there's a whole lot more people, you want to see how many people actually have peripheral vascular disease. Go to the airport. I remember and this is a man, this was a I remember when I was flying. I think the flight was going to Florida. Oh, and so there was quite a few people over the age of 60. They were all in shorts. None of them had leg hair.Oh, well, and circumference right..Circumference. All the way ... So just so you don't get along because I'm one of these if you still have hair. On one side of your leg, but on the other, that's not what we're talking about. But if you have a, there's like a line of demarcation... And then suddenly the hair stops you, you probably need to at least be checked out because there's a lack of blood flow.Yeah. So what ends up happening is is that the blood flows to go from the heart all the way to the toes. And so the micro vasculature starts decreasing before the macro vasculature meaning you're going to sacrifice the skin, blood flow to protect the muscles and the joints and the cartilage and all that other stuff. So that's how many like I looked around one day and I was like, Oh my god, I truly believe that almost everybody here has coronary artery disease slash PAD. Now we're looking at this going they all need to be on a polyphenol..Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's really, really interesting. And that's crazy. So yeah, so these these polyphenols definitely will help naturally benefit and produce nitric oxide so that you can increase your blood flow. And if you're already compromised help your body out.Do it never even thought about the whole mitochondria thing.Now? Obviously I didn't either, because I just sat there and stared at you. I saidYeah. Now the question is they didn't get into why they're actually asking in the article at Northwestern. They're saying the etiology, or the the physiology of how this is accomplished has yet to be determined. But we know it increases nitric oxide. Yeah, we do. I'm going to get into some stuff here shortly where I'm going to tell you that it's all about the post biotics. All right It's nuts. So for the next so I'm going to that's, that's it. That's our that's our fun part of the podcast.Now, that is fun, though. Honestly, if you've got circulatory issues, at least, you know, there could be a natural solution that will at least help. Number one, give you some more time. Number two, give us an idea of what you can do to improve things for yourself.So I mean, if there's one reason to do this podcast, and I keep saying this every single time, but I'm getting I'm learning I'm getting better. We've got our little secret weapon that keeps sending me articles and I'm just like, Oh my gosh, this one ties to this this one ties to this. So this is going to be a review of short chain fatty acids and you're like, I don't own any of those. I'm gonna get off. No, you need to hear this. Basically if you're a mammal on the planet Earth, this is a really important podcast for you.If you can understand the words he's saying that is you... yeah. Unless you're a flat eartherYeah, well they probably still should take they still take polyphenols..Should I shouldn't take that back question discriminated against. Unfortunately, I just watched that Joe Rogan episode with the astronauts. I'm all about space right now.Oh, yeah. Well, it's funny just the other day I passed the flat earth mobile in Denton, Texas. Yeah, it's pretty fun. On the back it says the earth is flat and you pan down to is buffered it says and motionless, which I think is awesome. But whatever. Well, so let's get into short chain fatty acids post biotics. Let's, let's get into some some awesome science here and, and let people know why it's so important.Alright, so I mentioned the very beginning that this was sort of brought on because the viewer Don said, Well, what next and then I started going down this rabbit hole, then I started Heli. If you watch the episode where we do the fecal microbial transplant This is that mean that she's not an actress, she's desperate. Sure. And things are happening to her and they're happening fast and she is panicking. We had Pannez that is at risk for all these things that we're talking about, but it's super complex. Ultimately, it all comes down to the microbiome. Unfortunately, As Americans, we disrupt our own microbiome by our lifestyles, like eating crappy diets, taking antibiotics, lack of exercise, and probably poor sleep are the biggest deals. And this is going to result in a decrease in diversity. You're going to hear this term over and over and over again. People always talk about I'll just take probiotics and improve this. No, it's way more complex than this. We're going to get into it. But basically, you need a true diverse microbiome, to aid in your health. Researchers are now showing that neuro degenerative issues like dementia, Parkinson's, anything that affects your brain. And you know, Eric, we've talked about this a bunch that my goal as a physician right now is to figure out a way to stop dementia. Yep. Because we come on the show and we talk we talk about our kids or about our wives. We talked about stuff. Imagine if all of a sudden it's gone. What was your life, ultimately, your life becomes memories and those memories are what forms your personality and all these other things, and then they affect stuff. The thought of taking away my memory is, I mean, people people don't really think about how, how difficult dementia really is. I mean, it's it's a it's a hard one. I've had friends whose parents have faded that way? My wife's grandmother, I mean, we wonderful woman and went through just honestly her own living hell not being able to relate to the people that she felt like she knew around her. And just it's no good. No. And so if we can sit down, start piecing things together. Yeah. And not only the neurodegenerative things, but now researchers are starting to look at this. I mean, I just gave that article about the American Heart Association looking at a polyphenolic complex. That means that the traditional medical complex is starting to look at this stuff starting awesome Starting.Now there's evidence to show that heart disease, heart attacks, strokes, diabetes, obesity, so if you're like, Oh, I don't know anybody with dementia. But do you know anybody with obesity, ever had a heart attack? You have a family history of anybody with diabetes? Any all that stuff is the real question is how and why? Yep. Why didn't Heli develop all these autoimmune issues after fecal microbial transplant? My theory I'm not I'm not a smart enough to be a flat earther that has cool bumper stickers like that. But so my theory is just looking at all this and looking at my patients. I'm not a I'm not a PhD bench researcher, but this is what the world needs is bench researchers coming up with stuff having animal models, clinicians out here, slugging it away, and weirdos getting on the air and talking about it yet try and figure it out. Yeah, bridge bridge the gap between traditional medicine and natural solutions. Alright, so my theory is that our microbes, our microbiome, the most important thing in your body that really helps regulate everything. Do we live for them? Do they live for us? We don't know. But it can be symbiotic. Meaning you can work together. They're fed by the food we eat specifically fibers and complex polysaccharides. polysaccharides are hard to digest starches, right? So through various mechanisms their, these bacteria break them down, they eat it. And then their waste products or basically what they leave over. We use .. So their compost is our fuel, right? It's a fantastic thing that we've never really thought of before..Their compost is our fuel. That's that's, yeah, it's nice.Yeah, so that's what we're now calling post bioticsRight? And it's not a bad thing at all because what they produce in general post biotics, you can describe post biotics by their composition, like is it a fat, short chain fatty acid? Is it a complex molecule that we don't really know very much about it? Or does it do like your religion is one of them, your religion that creates the Mito con the mytophogy, right affects old and sick mitochondria.And if you're keeping up that's also known as the anti aging post bioticProduced by bacteria that breaks down these things a post biotic or the physiologic function that it causes. So we know that there's certain things about to reproduce that we haven't been able to label yet. There's been 800 post biotics, and they create all kinds of different diseases Again, 800 post bioticsThat scientists have at least discovered Right. And it's just to be fair, it's much like the ocean, there's just because we have 800.. I don't even think we're near the end. I mean, there's lots to figure out and the combinations thereof anyway, I don't want to sidetrackNo, totally sidetracked the whole time. In fact, your sole job, because I'm like, when I mean that we discovered a topic here that I was like going, Oh, my gosh, we're, we're piecing things together. So when I start going down a rabbit hole too much, interrupt immediately and go, you don't you're not making any senseSure.Just stop and start me over here. So this all started because of the fecal microbial transplant thing with Heli. And then Don says I'm more confused so that I started looking into it. And now I started realizing that these post biotics there's 800 of them, but let's Focus on one that we've done some serious research on, which is short chain fatty acids..Okay? Now short chain fatty acids are fatty acids that are really small. They're like fewer than six carbon atoms, meaning that it's very tiny. And they're made by our bacteria in our colon from undigestible, or from indigestible foods like fibers. And I always thought of them as fuel for the colon. That's how I was taught during my fellowship and residency in medical school, that they're, they're local. But the reality is it goes way beyond that, way, way, way beyond that. So these short chain fatty acids do include in to the geeky part, names like butyrate, acetate, propionate, and lactate, don't get hung up on the names, but in particular, butyrate is one that everybody talks about..Right? It's super important for gut health, and it's also known to help with gut motility corrects leaky gut, it works locally to heal the lining of the colon. But we now know that the other short chain fatty acids can actually be absorbed systemically as well. And we have not been paying attention to them. And they can influence the body in all different kinds of ways, depending on the host genes..Right?So you and I may react differently to these short chain fatty acids, depending on your genes. That's the epi genetic phenomena, right? That's how come Heli he developed all these issues when her donor did not have the issues. So that's a separate rabbit hole. But what I want to talk about is butyrate is so important that most nutritionists and scientists study this molecule that is its own episode. Okay. I'm going to talk about the black sheep of short chain fatty acids..Which ones at that? Oh, everything else but butyrate it okay. So if butyrate just know it's good, and you want butyrate? Yep. Now we're going to go into everything else and I want to explain how my patients like Pannez may have developed her problem, and we're going to bring it all the way back to short chain fatty acids like acetate and lactate and talk about that. So, the rest of this is I'm going to show you the model that I've never been able to explain up until right now. Okay. For instance, every time somebody sees me with SIBO small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, or irritable bowel syndrome, IBS, or inflammatory bowel disease, IBD, Crohn's colitis, I like to ask them a question. I'm like, Do you ever feel like you're in a brain fog? Do you ever have anxiety? Has your mood changed? You have sleep disturbance? The first thing I do is go right from the gut to the brainRight? And I asked because I've seen this correlation. And I've always said, Well, it's because of the inflammatory process. haven't really gone that deep into it because all the articles I was reading about that all showed that a inflamed gut can lead to an inflamed brain. Now let's dive a little bit deeper and find different reasons how these post biotics actually lead to that. OkaySo if you're somebody that suffers from anxiety, it may have nothing to do with your brain. It may all start in your gut. And this is really wild. So step one, something happens.OkayYou get back bacterial overgrowth, SIBO you have an infection, eat a crappy diet. This leads to leaky gut, or intestinal permeability. Now, new research is showing that this will actually once you develop intestinal permeability, it actually allows acetate and lactate to get absorbed more into the bloodstream. That's not really what we want is it. It's not what we want. So once it gets absorbed into the bloodstream, these short chain fatty acids have this incredible mechanism to cross the blood brain barrier through its own transport molecule. So in the past, we've always talked about leaky gut leaky brain. This actually has its own transport, it doesn't even have to be a leaky brain, it's got a little bridge that these guys ride.So, in short, if I think this can be beneficial if you have a transport mechanism at the cellular level, basically, that just means that there's a little protein that's allowing passage or exchange of something to be taken from one side to the other. And I think that what you're explaining here is, we don't really want these molecules crossing over to the brain, but now that they are rapidly being absorbed through the gut, that they're more abundant in the brain, and that's not really what we're after.So these guys finally get out of the gut. They got a VIP card. Yeah, they're like, whoo, VIP card front of the line, let me know the brain. So that's what's really fascinating. So acetate and lactate, once it gets in the brain. They can actually directly influence neurons. causing a series of effects. said again, it's a direct neuro transmitter. Nobody's ever said this that I've learned this in neurology..Yea me either. So lactate and acetate can cause a direct influence on the neurons by stimulating sympathetic nervous activity. What that means is..Excitability.. They turn on the fight or flight.Yeah, interesting. Well, guess what? Yes.So this can cause a rise in blood pressure, heart rate and the opposite effect in the gut. When you have a sympathetic effect in the brain. You have a parasympathetic effect in the gut. What I mean by that is, I always tell my patients, the more because they're like, oh, man, I've been so stressed. I built constipation. Like it's a physiologic phenomenon when we were evolving. If you're being chased by a saber toothed tiger, you don't want to have sex or take a poop. Right as you're getting giddy. Yeah. So you have to think fast and run. Yeah, it's really funny. So like, I'm always thinking about that, like from sex. To actually have an erection. You have to have a para sympathetic response. wants to have an orgasm you need a sympathetic response and to actually have a bowel movement you need a parasympathetic. So parasympathetic is the opposite side of the fight or flight..Right. So now we've got this thing. I'm like, Oh my gosh, wait a minute. So, when you have SIBO, I'm just going to keep using the SIBO patient because, for the first time, I could say, oh, Heli on the interview, kept saying, I just am so anxious and just in and remember, I took a two hour interview to 15 minutes. I really kind of had to get her back focused the whole time. She was just like, I'm just wired and not wired like Robb Wolf. Alright, so then this becomes this really wild, this sympathetic effect causes a rise in the blood pressure, heart rate, and then the opposite effect, where then the motility gets messed up leading to more leaky gut. It becomes a vicious cycle. Yeah. So then while all this is going on, more inflammation happens. In the gut, the leaky gut then turns on the inflammatory cascade. So then that becomes our normal talk. That's I've given lectures on this part where I can show interleukin 12 and other 23. You know, cytokines blah, blah, blah, histamine..These are all inflammatory markers. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, what if the very, very, very, very beginning of it is too much lactate acetate getting into the brain that then tells the brain to turn on the gut, or to turn down the gut to create more inflammation. And now you've got this process going on. So we've talked about this for SIBO in years, but now I'm saying oh, my gosh, we gotta fix the post biotic situation before we can fix everything else. Yeah. So now you may be thinking, Okay, this is crazy. I don't have you know, it's, it's interesting. I don't have anxiety, I dont have depression, I don't have bloating, I don't have gut issues. I'm going to turn this off dope because Oh my goodness. Now we're going to look at some different things that these post biotics are actually linked to certain diseases..Okay. And now we're going to get outside of the gut. And I'm going to give you mechanisms about how these things affect or can create diabetes, blood pressure, dementia, all kinds of stuff. Before we jump too far ahead. Can you give us an idea on what type of foods are used by these bacteria to create the post biotics that we don't want?..To create the post box that we don't want? That's that is a great question. What we do know more is that the foods that produced the post biotics that we like are fibers, and digestible starches are resistant starches, things like that, right? overnight oats, you know, whatever type of fibers, polyphenols, the skins of vegetables and fruits. What we do know is that when you eat a diet high in processed foods.. you end up creating more bacteria that produce more lactate and acetate.They're the things that I was kind of hinting at. And I kind of cheated a little bit but the things I was kind of hinting at were unrefined, our refined sugars. Yeah. And things like oils that we're not really supposed to consume like high, high pressed vegetable oils and different things like that they, they believe that those may be the the foods that allow the bacteria to produce the postbox that we don't want preservatives, foods that shouldn't be sitting on a shelf for months at a time and suddenly they're just fresh because they're in a package. Those may they don't know this for certain, but they think that those may be the kinds of foods that would lead to a lot of this lactate and acetate.And nobody's talking about the post biotics doing this. And spoiler alert, I'm going to get into it a little bit. But basically, once you start producing more of it, you're it sends signals to those bacteria that are like we're winning..let's keep doing more. Yeah. So they end up propagating more or they end up colonizing more. whatever word you Want to use? Then you end up with more of that. And then they're sending brain signals to eat more of that. And that's that whole thing where now you're out there wondering why you're cracking open a bag of Oreos? Well think about it if if I post bodek is influencing the way that my brain thinks she would have to draw the assumption that if I'm suddenly addicted to sugar, and I'm always craving sugar, whereas maybe I didn't before but now everyone my friends would know me as someone who just really likes sugar all the time. That could just be the the lack of that post biotic influencing the brain who's now told me Oh, you need to quickly go get this fix to make you feel this way.Oh, I'm so glad you went with sugar on this one. Nice. Let's talk about diabetes. Okay. All right. So I found an article that basically looked at diabetes in a rat model. This research showed that diabetic mice fed a sad diet, a standard American diet, and this diet which is high sugar, high fat, high fats not bad, right? High. I think high sugar is always bad, right? You combine the two and it's a, it's horrible. Basically, they fed us they fed these diabetic mice a sad diet, and they showed immediately that the acetate level jumped right up. This rising acetate caused an acute rising glucose leading to the pancreas to secrete excess of insulin Yeah, then it should have and then this rise in insulin led to a huge rise in a hormone called ghrelin. Ghrelin..Hungry. Yeah. Can you go ahead and explain to everybody what ghrelin is. So,Ghrelin is the the mechanism by which your your gut, your GI tract tells you that you're hungry, and you're going to want to go out and eat. And you really want leptin to kick in and whenever you've not, or when you whenever you don't need to go out and get hungry, basically. I mean, so whenever you see the commercials for what was The name of that lipitor or whatever it was, it was making people feel like they were. They were full. They were they were basically trying to mimic leptin. Really?Yeah, to make you feel full. Never saw. Not only works, butBe around. But regardless, grillin is the opposite. Ghrelin is the one that drives you to go and seek food to go get nourishment. But it's funny because they started to think and you could be, you could correct me on this, but ghrelin it certain instances, like for the sugar lack, that if you get low on sugar, then suddenly your brain is now programmed. Well, we'll raise ghrelin whenever our sugar load gets low, right? Yeah. So what was so cool is that these guys looked at, usually somebody will look at one thing, but they're like, okay, our theory is this, we're going to look at the post biotic acetate and see what its effect does. And those that have higher acetate levels are showing higher insulin, higher ghrelin levels. And so then those mice became voracious. They want to eat more than what did they do? They produced more and their desire to eat the crappy sugary type stuff because the ghrelin is saying get the cheapest, easiest calories. Yeah led to higher acid..acetate. Yeah, wait. Just Just a side note. This is also the argument that a lot of dietitians have on why it's important to have what they call high density foods. So a refined sugar is not a high density food at all. It's short lived in terms of the satisfaction, and you're going to always want to keep consuming whereas if you eat the foods that you should eat, you the fibers and the polyphenols, etc, you you fill up and it leaves lots of work for the bacteria to produce the types of post biotics that you want. 100% so I have all these diabetic patients that struggle to lose weight, but really, it could come down to the bacteria and the bacteria that are producing acetate. I mean, maybe the future treatment. I mean, American Heart Association just got done doing this studying peripheral vascular disease. Maybe the encrinologist will start looking at changing the bacteria to help with diabetes instead of just throwing drugs at people. because quite honestly, once you get put on insulin that it's it's erases your ghrelin everybody I talked to they're just like, man, I take an insulin shot. Bodybuilders take insulin so they can eat more and their growth hormone goes up.Yeah, kids don't do that. That's not the reason.So diabetes, I don't care about diabetes. Nobody. My family has diabetes. It is what it is. That's what somebody out there saying, Man, this guy keeps talking about anxiety. SIBO IBS had an effect me or anybody in my family. All right, I'm telling you that. Now let's talk about blood pressure. The silent killer.Definitely How many? Honestly, side note how many times do we have patients come through every day? We have a full load. I would say probably 20% of those on a full load day. We probably have to inform them about a blood pressure issue right or wrong?Oh, we've seen more than 100 million people in our clinic. Yeah. Wrong. That's that's wrong. That's 100 million people have high blood pressure in the United States. Okay. Yeah, we seen 100 million feels like 100 million.Yeah, I didn't know what that number was going. That sounded like an awful lot. But, but we do, but we do have people who for the first time ever, it they say feel fine, no meds. And then suddenly we look at their blood pressure, and it's 170 over 98. So not normal. And I've been pre hypertensive for a long time. I've changed my diet. And you know, I'm knocking right on 49 right now. So I'm pushing 50 here, and my blood pressure is better. It continues to get better as I focus on my dietRight? And I've always like, Man, that just doesn't make any sense. Why would because, you know, I, you know, I'll sit there and I'll fly off the rails and cheat and pizza and stuff. Now we're going to get into some of this stuff. So the American Heart Association says it over 103 million US adults have high blood pressure.That's a lot.I still think that there's more people that they don't even realize.100% because there's only what 300 I'm guessing here. 340 million people in the US something like that.Yeah. And so high blood pressure leads to stroke, blah, blah, blah, blah, everything else, you know, it's that whole syndrome x thing. Yeah. So Oh, by the way, you know who does a really good job of explaining the whole syndrome x, the ne ne coined the phrase, it is Rob Wolf. Diabesity.DiabesityDiabesity. In his book, The Paleo solution, yeah, he actually describes this whole process of what I learned a syndrome x he's calling diabesity. And how once you get into this pathway, what I'm going to say is maybe this pathway, this shift is now we have a mechanism that these post biotics are actually creating this whole diabesity issue..Wow.. they could be and this would be obviously a step in the right direction. So do remember the whole thing that I told you about the sympathetic neuron activity so acetate and lactate get in there, their little free pass VIP card. Yeah, and then actually poke on the nerves chair and they turn on the sympathetic system. Well, researchers showed that young pre hypertensive rats exhibited leaky gut protein expression. They were pre hypertensive, and they were looking specifically at leaky gut. I don't know if it was zonulin or whatever they were looking for. But they found it before they were hypertensive. Starts in the gut..Definitely Crazy. Now, the more signs of leaky gut, the more sympathetic output these rats showed, increasing the permeability led to increased brain permeability. And they showed that acetate and lactate stimulated an area of the brain called the hypothalamus,Very important master glandMaster gland super, super crucial thing. Now, this actually increased the sympathetic signals leading from the hypothalamus down and blood pressure started to rise accordingly, as asked lactate levels went upThat's a no one's really built that, that that pathway. I've never seen anybody do that.It's, I mean, I read this and I was like, What? How are we not describing a treatment for high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity and thinking more about the our microbiome than just throwing? I mean, how many of my patients have six, seven? I mean, you take a beta blocker, what are the side effects of that fatigue, depression, erectile dysfunction, then you take calcium channel blocker, and you've got cough, and you've got ankle edema, and we're throwing this stuff, and all of a sudden, we've got rats where we can show if we decrease this. More importantly, they show that the sympathetic shift, altered the microbiome, which led to a less diverse microbiome and increase in lactate and acetate producing bacteria. One more time it got into the brain, the brain sends signals to the body. That is you're in fight or flight. Yeah. And because and have, you can logically try and work your way around this. But basically those same signals, tell more of those bacteria just like you talked about with the sugar..RightNow more of the bacteria are being signaled to grow. And now you've got a cascade of high blood pressure type stuff. Unfortunately, it sounds like what what we're doing is building a friendly utopia for the bacteria that we don't want, right? And then they're basically telling your brain to go and get some more the food that will allow them to build more of the byproducts or the post biotics that you don't need that are going to make your problem worse. And just a side note, so overstimulation of the sympathetic nervous system. It's really funny how we're talking about diabetes, we're talking about high blood pressure, we're talking about insomnia, we're talking about anxiety, all of those things are just simply going to compound and make the same situation worse, the diabetes gets a little bit more out of control and the insulin goes up and the ghrelin goes up. I'm gonna keep eating. And by the time I keep eating and I post biotics make my anxiety level go up and I can't sleep, that's only going to perpetuate more of the same and you can only I would assume, correct that by getting the right bacteria to eat the right. the right food, so that you have the right post biotics, right? That's exactly it. Just that easy Eric. That's all you got to do. All right, well I guess thats it..Mic drop spoiler.But it just it's it's scary, though, that that quickly, you can escalate while you actually have no idea that it's happening to you. You just don't know. You're not in control. No you're not.So I mean, here we have this deal with a rise in lactic acid acts like a positive feedback loop to create its own little lactic acid factory.It's self serving. It's not in here for youNo, those bacteria, everybody We talk about an ego centric society and everything. Well, as it turns out, I'm learning more and more that bacteria are truly egocentric. AlsoYou gotta keep them in check. You know, C. diff would love to just run rampant and do this. See that being a bacteria that when you wipe out other bacteria due to antibiotics, you end up with horrible diarrhea. That's something we deal with all the time. They just be they have this they throw this big party and make you really sick.. so the bacteria themselves, they have a self serving need to keep growing. They're not looking around going. I need more diversity here. Everybody wants to win. And when you have lactate producing bacteria they want to win. That goes back to the whole Satish Rao article where he gave SIBO patients probiotics, and they produce more lactate. He checked the lactic acid levels and those people that had higher lactic acid levels had higher depression and anxiety.Damn, that's not good. That's not what you're after. So what we're looking at here is microbial dysbiosis micro dysbiosis is the term that the natural path to use everywhere. And really what that means is a lack of diversity is not dysbiosis. It just means that there's an imbalance in your microbiome, you have too much of something and not enough of another. They showed with rats that those rats with a lack of diversity tended to have higher levels of the lactate and acetate. And, again, not the post biotics the short chain fatty acids that we want. So understanding that knowledge, these researchers started to look at stroke and dementia. And getting back to the brain. Yeah, so using that model, they were able to show that acid and lactate can cross the blood brain barrier, which we've already discussed. Then these guys focused on one unique thing I already discussed how they tap on the neurons and do this. Well. Something else that that these post biotics short chain fatty acids do is that they actually lope they actually dropped the local Ph. So this local drop in pH caused inflammation At the neuron level, this inflammation led to increase in certain markers of inflammation like human necrosis factor, and it causes cell death.So just in layman's terms, why that matters is if you drop the pH and basically you are creating a more acidic environment. And just a side play, which we haven't even mentioned yet that actually creates more work for your respiratory system to basically correct that. And by you know, I'm saying because you have to blow off the acid your blood, but your blood buffering system is going to have to produce more bicarbonate just to basically take care of the neurons that are now in a more acidic environment. This is exactly why whenever you're an athlete running around, you breathe heavier, right? Because the acid formed by the activity throughout all your muscles is dumping into the bloodstream so that you can breathe out co2, well, if you're not running around, you don't really want to be dropping your pH systemically. So that's That's a big No, no, that's not what we're after.So once you have a cell die, that leads to oxidative stress... which ultimately leads to inflammation. Those rats develop dementia. So chronic inflammation..Chronic inflammation. So we've always talked about chronic inflammation. This is first domino effect. Yeah. The first domino effect is this we're getting into a cellular level. They even took normal tensive rats, so rats with normal blood pressure, and they gave a microbial transplant fecal microbial transplants on mice that were genetically prone to have high blood pressure and strokes, okay. And the rats who received the transplant developed high blood pressure and had strokes. So watch the episode where we talk about Heli. Like once I'm getting into this, I'm like, why would we do fecal transplants without knowing all of this? So let's break that down real quick. Basically, what you're saying if I understand correctly They took the bacteria that was somewhere else and put it in another rats colon. And they were able to replicate that these bacteria when fed with the wrong stuff being the wrong count of bacteria wrong diversity count, right? They gave off post biotics that lead to more damage to the rat itself.So the so the rats that they euthanize when they saw that they had strokes or that they had dementia, they show that they had much higher levels of acetate and lactate, the rats that lived surprising, not surprisingly, at all, actually, now after looking at this, right, the ones that did not develop high blood pressure or have a stroke had higher levels of all short chain fatty acids, but they had higher levels of butyrate overlapped. So they had but they had they had the right concentration. Right?They had the right concentration. It's not that lactate and acetate should never be produced. It's that they're they're being overproduced at the expense of what's healthy for your body.And so one other thing one other brain disease that I want to get at and then we're actually done with these diseases. But I hope you're seeing that we have diseases that are specifically related to this. Yeah. So can you smell me and tell me if I Parkinson's? Hang on a second?That is not something I can detect.But somebody can because you sent me that article.I did. Yeah. Tell me about that.Well, there is apparently a woman who has a, I can't remember what the study is you kind of put me on spot here. But basically, she was able to show all but less than 3% of the people she was able to identify disease states in them and one of them was parkins by a smell or an odor they put off which I found fascinating. She was able to accurately diagnose people by the the odor or the the pheromones or whatever it was that she detected. And then of course, you did a little bit deeper. They talk a little bit about why so..Yeah, so as it turns out, so this woman, her husband, died of Parkinson's, and when she was in support groups, she remembers her husband smell started to change like a decade before. Then he started developing symptoms.Oh, you know what, I'm sorry, quick shout out my youngest son Mac. He's the one who showed me an article did it Really? .... Cool. So it's, I looked at the they believe they've discovered what molecule she's actually smelling through mass spec. But that's kind of irrelevant, because what's happening is is now I'm linking that to this. Because evidence is now showing that dementia and Parkinson's begins 10 to 20 years before the brain is actually affected.And if I remember correctly, further down the article didn't they say they were experimenting with her to try to find alzheimers? Correct, correct. Yeah. So everybody's like, Oh, this woman's got this magic skill. What is she's smelling? Yeah. Acetone when I go into ketosis.. I have acetone coming out of my breath. Right Haven't you you've actually smell different what you're breaking down. It's ketoacidosis Severe diabetic Or severe diabeticsfruity acetone, head on.They have the fruity acetone..So we definitely put off different smells and different, you know, chemicals builder. So this is interesting Parkinson's, these diseases have build up. So Parkinson's specifically has a buildup of proteins that are actually seen in the gut first. So when they look at the proteins that create the Parkinson's disease, right now, researchers are looking in the gut, and they're finding that protein buildup in the gut before it builds up in the brain.And just so you all know that this is not made up pseudoscience, just a completely separate example, GI  bleeds, going through a hospital, you can almost always tell a patient that's dealing with a GI bleed simply because I mean that that smell is unmistakable right?Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that I think other third world doctors rely on their senses visual smell.. to really try and diagnose a patient.. And they get a little bit more deep in it kind of thing.. So that you know, there's the when I did gynecology, you did what was called With test, which is the pap smear when you try and smell a fishy odor and things like that, so we don't do that much anymore because you said it to a lab, but..Yeah, hard to do.So these, these diseases Parkinson's could actually develop early on. Now what's really interesting is that Parkinson's could be related to the Vegas nerve.Parasympathetic.Causing the inflammatory buildup of these proteins. Interesting. So rats given a fecal microbial transplant from a Parkinson's rat immediately showed an increase in acetate levels. Then when they followed these rats, they slowly developed motor function problems. In humans, we now realize that those people with Parkinson's have a dysbiosis I'll say it one more time. Now we're starting to look at all these chronic diseases and researchers are going let's look at their microbiome. Almost all Parkinson's people have a dysbiosis Wow. So people would say, Oh, well, if you have Parkinson's, you're sick. You have a dysbiosis. I'm saying no, the dysbiosis caused the Parkinson's.. we have to prevent that. Start there. So to answer in a very long winded, complex way to answer Don's question, shoot, it's so complicated. But I think we are now seeing a starting point. I think that if you keep your microbiome diverse, plenty of bacteria that can produce butyrate and other short chain fatty acids, and in my opinion, now thinking about it, that fecal transplant, getting a fecal transplant may carry more risk than we ever thought looking at these animal models. So Don's question was, Well, what do we do? Is fecal transplant good or bad and only in that we know for certain as if you have a complex microbiome, a diverse microbiome, and you feed it, what it needs, then you're going to produce the appropriate amount of post biotics, which will keep you healthy.Yeah, well, that makes that certainly makes the most sense. And to your point where you kept resetting for people who may not have known someone who has high blood pressure, dementia, diabetes, Parkinson's, anxiety, insomnia, if you exist, where you don't know anyone else like that, thank you for making this podcast, the only thing that you do to connect with other humans, because that's impossible.They're living in this utopia.It's just impossible not to know someone who's at least affected by something like that. And so I mean, it's kind of crazy to think that it all comes down or it could possibly all come down to the bacteria that we have naturally inside just simply need to be fed the right things at the right times and in the right amounts. You can make The case of I don't want to look obese I said together so not don't eat fast food. Well, the truth is, you look, you have those kind of manifestations where people aren't happy and stuff like that, because that's not the food you should be eating all the time. You've got to take care of yourself. Polyphenols is an easy way to get started.100% So, the now I'm gonna have to do a whole episode on butyrate because I went down Well, we should though.I started go down butor and then I found all these great articles. There's articles looking at different polyphenol supplements in the butyrate elevation that they are. Watch the plant based episode with Dr. Juan. Yeah, because he gave me his Neo greens as a sample and we showed it there. I looked at it. If he thought about this, then he's I mean, he's a super wicked smart guy in there. It's he's got probiotics, fermented, fermented vegetables, probiotics, with polyphenols in there, which means that possibly, spoiler alert, again, is just it's too much. But there's, there's there's people out there that are combining polyphenols and probiotics to produce these short chain fatty acids, right and ratios that they want. And maybe not fully understanding why.Not understanding why not understand if it gets absorbed, not understanding if it's a natural way to do it, I don't know. But it's at least a step in the right direction.I'll even reverse that. The answer oftentimes, when people only add, let's just say they're only adding butyrate that's probably not the answer either. You still need the healthy ratios of butyrate along with acetate and propriate. And, and lactate, it would be odd to only produce butyrate because that will probably yield something else that nature has a great way of having Governor's on certain systems, right. So I would imagine that there's probably going to be a healthy balance a healthy ratio, which is why you want the bio diversity in your gut.I'm sure 40 years ago, Dr. Ian Quigley, the godfather of probiotic sat there with a petri dish and went his hair stood up. And he went, Oh my gosh, this, this live bacteria is doing amazing things in the gut. And then 40 years later, we're still trying to figure out how to get probiotics to people. Because in a petri dish, it does amazing things in the human body, giving one strain and now we're up to whatever who knows. 50 strains of 50 billion units. Is it really doing anything? We don't know? Is it even getting there?Is it getting there? We don't know. And this could be the exact same thing. So the knee jerk reaction would be, oh, I'll just take more beer right and then I started looking at different there's a ton of different butyrate supplements much like sulfurophane where a lot of people are trying to you know, jump on the marketing bandwagon of broccoli sprouts... And so there's very few of those that are actually viable. Yeah, now now we're which broccoli is one. That's what I like to recommend Brock elite. But I am so excited because I feel like because of this podcast, because Atrantil to because of what we're learning and the scientists that I'm meeting, it's all starting to come together and truly I feel like we are changing the health landscape of anybody who purchases Atrantil to and our whole separate episode of kicked him out neuroinflammation acetate touching this and that don't even get me started on how the fatty acids in a full spectrum hemp CBD productSureCross the blood brain barrier and start mitigating some of thatYeahI mean if I if I had Elon Musk money and I could just sit there and look at different things. I mean, like, I want to know what what this CBD product does on acetate levels in the brain. YeahAnd just start asking questions like that. Each one of these studies was somebody who had a question, and it just happened to be that they were looking at short chain fatty acids, the effect and the effect it had systemically and props to these people to start doing that because that's hard work. So in short what should someone do? Who hears, okay, I need to have great bio diversity. I want to change the way that I'm approaching stuff. I want to be able to feed my new bio diverse microbiome correctly. Dr. Brown? Where would I start? Well, just I'll tell you and I don't ever tell people to do things I don't do Sure. So and I don't ever tell people to stop things that I still do. So be careful what you ask. Number one, we need to increase the diversity of the microbiome. The best way to do that is to increase your fiber. So the fiber that means soluble and insoluble fiber, two different kinds of fiber one soluble mixes in water that's like Metamucil insoluble, it's like the skin of vegetables. What we are now realizing is that skin of vegetables has this other beautiful molecule called polyphenols at what makes vegetables colorful. So I try to take in a certain amount of fiber I try and I've now because I read this. I went to Carla and I went to Whole Foods and I got some steel cut organic oats. And now I'm just soaking them in the fridge. So now I have cold oats. And the reason why is oats are a resistant starch. If you cook them and make oatmeal, the way we do it, you make it more easy to digest by making a resistant starch. I'm going to increase the type of bacteria that produce more butyrate. WowYeah. So now since I've done the research on this, I wake up and I just take a couple spoons of these oats that are just soaking overnight. And now when I tell people that watch Dr. oz and stuff, they're like, yeah, overnight oats. Where were you in 88 when Oz talking about whatever he started. Like really, people were talking about that they didn't know why they were talking about now. That's the kicker. So one of the problems that I have is that if you tell me to do something, I need a mechanism of action. SureIf I can explain the mechanism Then it works for me. Now I'd say that I would say that I'm open to ideas also, but I don't want to change this because you say it's great. Exactly.Just tell me why. Yeah, tell me why. So, increase your fiber, increase your resistant starches. You can do the resistant starches a lot of different ways. green bananas or plantations. Lloyd is Puerto Rican. So we do a lot of plantation nice. So that's a that's a paleo friendly, definite starch.Shout out to Bubbas sells. green bananas. That's what makes Oh, yeah, they are well designed by a guy who had Crohn's disease. Right. You talked to him? Yeah, it's so Bubbas Fine Foods, you can check them out. So if you're looking for a safe snack, there you go.And then now I've got all these articles words, people are actually starting to look at that the American Heart Association at the beginning of the show, I talked about how they're using polyphenols to help with peripheral peripheral vascular disease. I know that one of the best ways to create post biotics and I wasn't even thinking short chain fatty acids. I was thinking more along urolithin and these complex molecules that these other scientists talk about, there was an article that actually showed a molecule similar to Atrantil had an increase in butyrate, a whole separate show, because that's going to be a, that'll have to be a two hour show about how to increase your butyrate levelsDefinitely. But the beauty is, it isn't like you're just increasing butyrate levels you're going to eat, you're going to increase the diversity of the microbiome and allow it to happen. And then ultimately, polyphenols, fibers, resistant starches, and I'm going to now go down the pathway of why so many of my patients feel better on CBD. I think there's something to do with these short chain fatty acids. I just did. I have not gone there yet, but we've got our secret weapon and she'll find something out there.So ladies and gentlemen, if you want to start to work on making your gut a little bit more diverse and healthy, go ahead and get your soluble insoluble fibers supplement with good trustworthy polyphenols. There's nothing wrong with controlling inflammation systemically with a good CBD a good diverse whole foods diet that's really coming down to and I'm about to try your idea for overnight soaking oats I've never done that beforeI just started doing it. And if you don't have, like if you're lacking diabetes, you don't have enough high blood pressure. You're not obese enough, then ignore this whole podcast. Yeah, do whatever you want. That's awesome. That sounds great. What lots of knowledge day on the show. Thank you all so much for watching and listening, Be certain to like and share if you want to go back and check out the episodes with Heli, with Pannez, or Dr. Doug won. Just go back to gut check project.com You can find all of our episodes cataloged on there on the page this we're improving it all the time, be sure and sign up for the newsletter. Starting tomorrow, everybody who is in the KBMD health universe will be reminded of the latest published show. So if you ever get to catch up with the shows, just sign up, you'll be notified each week, every new episodes, we release it Go to KBMDhealth.com. Right. And one of the things that I get that I see the most common is rectal bleeding. And we went through the trouble putting together a little rectal bleeding free book that So download that you get a free book. And then we can keep you updated to these shows. One of the things if you can like and share this, the more this grows, the more that we get access to scientists, the more that I can take deep dives into stuff like this. If you're still listening, thank you. This is like that person that actually reads the whole I saw some some Reddit deal with some woman got $10,000 because there was like a 10 page like one of those weird contracts for like a nothing that you're supposed to sign like, like an iTunes agreement or something. Yeah. And there was a little tiny fine print in the bottom. If you're the type of person that's reading this fine print and you send us an email and you're the first person to do it will send you $10,000 they send it $10,000 so if you're actually still listening after all that nerdy stuff that I just talked about, we can't send any money..Be the first one in the subject line to write the word butyrate spelled correctly and you will get a free altran to bottle and CBD of your choice.Butyrate so the first person to send in an email to.. no they have to download the book.Yeah download download the book. Yeah, they have to download the book title the book and then reply with a type butyrate Yeah, type butyrate just spell it correctly. Look it up and send it to us. It'd be awesome. You be the first one you get a free Dr. Brown's signature package. Let us know if you want sentiment or naturalDoes that mean I sign the box of Atrantil that the signature package So much extra stuff you want to do its not going to work out? Thank you so much like and share like and share. Remember, this show isn't intended to treat or diagnose. If you have a health issue, be sure you go and check it out with your physician. We will see you at Episode 34 coming soon. Thank you.Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Daniel has had a multitude of very impressive jobs but nothing satisfies him as much as showing data for a good cause. Daniel’s job is to gather data sets through either tests that he sends out or gathers other data points to convince huge, conventional companies to use their products such as JUST Egg. If you’re in the plant-based industry, there’s a lot to think about such as: who is your actual target market? Or What’s in a name? You’re also going to learn the value of networking. Perhaps the value of hard work is something you can’t put on a resume. I think what’s fascinating about Daniel is that he puts a ton of effort in his roles and people recognize it in each part of his career path. So much, he started his own networking group, SF CPG. You’ll also learn… one fun thing about JUST. They have a  band called the Super Fantastics and Daniel’s the drummer and singer Stay tuned. At the end of the episodes, you’ll hear a song from them We do this episode at the JUST office. Show Notes Smart Kitchen Summit SF CPG Or San Francisco Consumer Products Group Next Gen Chef MISTA Seeds of Change Burning Man What’s your role?: I’m the director of Strategy and Analytics and Insights How many Eggs are in JUST? 8 eggs per bottle Downstream Processing People are looking for plant-based are health reasons. Even if they don’t eat a lot of plant-based, it’s healthier. This plant-based product isn’t 2% of the population, but 40% of the population Primary Research: Surveys and trying to understand plant-based consumers Most research about customers and labels Just Egg: Made from plants, not chickens What’s a good survey plant?: You can do a 20-50 person sample and get good data as a litmus test Why did you choose psychology?: Kenyon College in Ohio, both of my parents are psycologists After my MBA, I got a job at Deloitte After Deloitte, I got into Mars How did you get into Mars?: I met this guy from old fashion networking. I would get referrals, and if anyone wanted to meet with me, I would ask them for time to meet and I met them in person. How did you get a job at JUST?: JUST reached out and asked for someone to understand pricing In general, the approach to pricing is to find the options (competition), test it, and see what works. What resources do you have on your disposal How did you change from pricing to analytics?: I saw the sales go in and pitch a story, but they need data SPINS Data Surveymonkey My Food Job Rocks: I get to do something meaningful and impactful Food Trends: Cultured Meat What is one thing you’d like to know more about?: It’s a privilege to hear about such exciting stuff that’s happening in other companies What type of resources would you like to share?: Think about your dream job and then find ways to get there. Podcasts: Taste Radio, How I Built This JUST has a house band with a band room The Super Fantastics Instagram

Remember, I am a real doctor Eric is a real crna. We do do real medicine. But this show is not intended to diagnose or treat. Please, if you have any issues like rectal bleeding, go to our website, kbmdhealth.com. Download the E book, learn about it, but make sure that you talk to your doctor about it.Ken Brown   All right, here we are with the gut check project, Episode 29 a super special episode because we have a guest co host, Eric Rieger was unavailable. And so we had a guest co host today it is Dr. Doug Won, who's here. Welcome to the studio, my friend.Dr. Won  Thank you so much for having me here. Truly an honor.Ken Brown  Well, I think that this is gonna be a really really cool show. You're doing A lot of functional things you're really big into treating the whole person. Your background, I think is really cool. I am gonna warn you though. I hope you're a pretty smart guy because Eric's a smart guy. You got some big shoes to fill in. So why don't we at least find out like if you're, you know, like where you actually came from and everything. Tell us a little bit about yourself?Dr. Won  Sure. I'm from South Korea, immigrated to Irving, Texas when I was 11 years old and went to elementary, middle school and high school in Irving MacArthur High School, go Cardinals. And then after that, I went to Northwestern University. I majored in biology and biomedical engineering, and then went to medical school at utmb in Galveston, and once I was done with the medical school, pursued orthopedic surgery at Washington University in St. Louis, and did spine surgery fellowship in Michigan, and then came right back to Irving, Texas, to treat my friends and family members and my local community and Irving, the city that I love, I went back to it and been there ever since.Ken Brown  Yeah, you're way smarter than Eric. Yeah. Of course right now he's probably arguing I didn't hear anything about Texas Tech. So you know, so in his mind, you didn't go to Texas Tech. You're not nearly as smart. But I guess you did say a few other things Northwestern, double major biology, biomedical engineering and everything. So, yeah, I think that I think the show is going to be really great. What I want to do with this show today, you have you and I have very similar passions. We're really big into the functional medicine side of things. I want to cover some anti aging stuff. I want to talk about how supplements and nutrients can actually augment a lot of these different things that talk about your past. Now. You are one of the most accomplished orthopedic spine surgeons and I can I have to pick your brain before we even jump in. I was actually talking to a very difficult patient of mine and I wanted to throw out a disease and just see if you've ever dealt with any of this. I believe That we have somebody who is smoldering into ankylosing spondylitis. Now this actually happened to one of our co workers, but now I'm treating somebody who's acting a lot like she did. She spent about two years just sort of, you knew something wasn't right. And then pow it just kind of all popped up. Have you had some experience with autoimmune diseases and stuff like that specifically as ankylosing spondylitis?Dr. Won  Yeah, absolutely. In our spine clinic, we used to see a lot of patients with ankylosing spondylitis. And then also patients who didn't quite have the the conditions, but they were HLA 27 positive, and they were brewing the different types of symptoms and conditions. And then we also deal with because I also deal with lifestyle medicine. We've actually seen a lot of different kinds of patients with autoimmune disease. And what we usually tell patients is that your genetics and genes may load the gun, but you actually pulled the trigger through your nutrition and lifestyle.Ken Brown  i like how you say that. Yeah, totally. So one of the things I just want to get this out of the way that you You're a very accomplished orthopedic surgeon. You're currently involved a little bit of a legal situation that you're appealing. What I think is amazing what you have done is because you have to put your surgical practice on hold for a little bit. Yes, you have shifted, and have still taken on the role of being a doctor, helping people and being an educator, you have not slowed down at all, you are the embodiment of resilience of moving through. I'm super, I think that's really, really neat. And why did you decide to kind of shift gears, I mean, you were going from scalpel. And I get that you have to take a little break from that. But a lot of people like you would just say, I'll use this as a break to go tour the world and say hi to things and you went I'm gonna use this as my opportunity to help more people.Dr. Won  Thank you. You know, helping people and making a big impact was my passion. That is a reason why I went into medicine and went into medicine because you know, my father suffered from back and he had four back surgeries, and his life was ruined for about 30 years with severe pain and in life You come up with so many different challenges. Either you can crumble or or decide to just sit back, and then the life continue to punch you, or you can stand back, you know, stand up again, and continue to move on forward. And what got me going was as long as I can make an impact and help all the patients, and my passion was biohacking, which I've been doing, you know, all my life. And what I realized was that in medical school, we really didn't learn how to cure the disease. We learned to manage the disease. And through this experience, I really learned how to better manage and then in many incidences, and cure the patients, and wanted to continue to make an impact and help patients. That's what gets me going and that's what's getting me up every single morning. And no matter what anybody says, as long as I feel good about you know what I'm doing and continue to practice medicine in different way. Through health coaching, and, you know, even approaching and these days, I also teach a lot of doctors in Africa. How to treat chronic disease.Dr. Won  You teach doctors in Africa?Dr. Won  Yes. Ken Brown  Okay. I got a segway out of that for a second. What? Tell me about that? Dr. Won  Yeah, so I came in contact with a physician who was really into preventive medicine. He's a personal doctor to the president of Cameroon. In Africa right now, they're facing so many different chronic disease. In the past, before the Africa became developed, there was no such thing as heart disease, cancer, diabetes, or obesity. But as the countries are becoming wealthier, and countries are becoming more developed, they're now importing American disease such as heart disease, diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's, and they obviously can't afford to treat the patients with American medicine. So they're looking for ways to treat the patients naturally, and also the citizens most of the people in Africa are still hesitant about Modern medicine. So we got in contact through a mutual friend. And we decided to teach the the physicians there, how to reverse the disease naturally. And then also importantly, to prevent them.Ken Brown  Wow and so are you doing some sort of zoom with them? Do you have a lecture series? How are you doing this? Dr. Won  Yeah. So every Saturday morning, I connect through them through zoom meeting. Thank goodness for technology. I don't have to physically be in Africa. I would love to visit the continent, sometime soon. When things free up, but utilizing the technology, we provide the lectures, mostly to physicians, but also just about anyone who's interested. And we open it up to the whole community. And at one point, we had people from seven different countries connecting seven different countries in Africa.Ken Brown  Oh, wow. That is that is fantastic. So even before you had to kind of take this little hiatus from actually cutting on people and doing spine surgery, you've been thinking about this for a long time. You've been working towards the changing, changing the disease progress, you made a living for many years taking care of the end problem of people having wearing their bodies down, then you as the spine surgeon go in, and you take away their pain and you help them. But even then you were thinking, and what can we do to prevent this?Dr. Won  Yes. Oh, absolutely. So we've been giving free seminars on how to prevent and reverse chronic disease naturally, for about three years. I initially did not necessarily want to give the seminars myself, I'm not a good public speaker. And so I wanted to set up the infrastructure and then invite one of the physicians to do it. And he did it in a couple of times, but it took him away from the family. And it takes a lot of effort to prepare different topics. So I thought this was so important. And as you know, when we're in medical school, maybe we had an hour or two hours of lectures of nutrition, and how to reverse the disease naturally. Well, actually, we didn't learn anything about how to reverse the disease naturally in medical school. We learn how to just manage the disease. And so once I saw the light, I said, I have to share this information with everyone as many people as possible Ken Brown  Even as a gastroenterologist when I trained as a fellow, it is called the division of gastroenterology and nutrition. And I think we got like, half hour a week on nutrition. I know that it's supposed to a split the title. Gastroenterology and nutrition.Dr. Won  Yeah. And look at the hospital. You know, once I had a patient after a very big surgery, and he had a mild, MI you know, mild heart attack. And the next morning when I went up to the patients for patient had eggs, bacon cheese, for breakfast and lunch, I said, this is wrong, and then go to any hospitals, whether it's Dallas or anywhere else, go to the cafeteria, the hospitals are serving disease causing food in the cafeteria and to the patients. I said this is wrong, right. That is the true crime. And I said, you know, it was one of our mission to to really empower the people and teach me How to Prevent and reverse the disease themselves.Ken Brown  We should do a video where you actually come to my hospital to the doctors lounge. They give free food to the doctors and you walk around that doctors lounge. There's bags of m&ms. I've taken pictures of this. There's m&ms there's, this is really funny. There's actually bowls of like gummy bears. And I'll watch and people will just go by just grab a head. Start eating on the way out. I'm like, there's so many things wrong with that. Not just the food, but a lot of hands been in that bowl.Dr. Won  Yeah, actually, I got in trouble with that one of the hospitals here locally in Dallas I actually took a picture of what they were serving at the doctors lounge and then post it on the social media. Oh, and then I got called into the principal's office. The hospital CEO.Ken Brown  Oh, before we get called into the principal's office, since I'm not good at this part. This is what Eric does real well. One thing disclaimer both Dr. Won and myself are real doctors yet this is not intended to treat anybody or give any medical advice if you have that unusual rash or joint pain or anything, this is not here to cure or treat you. But this could help cure whatever it is or not, or at least reverse what's going on by lifestyle changes, not through medical advice. And the other thing that we always need to do is really give love to our sponsors. Our sponsors Atrantil my baby, my little polyphenol complex, which we're going to get into a lot of stuff about this because Dr. Won is a whole food plant based doctor. And those vegetables all have polyphenols similar to what we have, in Atrantil. And we do know that that actually can work like the Mediterranean diet, and do all different kinds of things. And of course, the KBMD health CBD, I'm a big fan of cannabadial, we get into the science of it, we're going to learn more and more. I don't know if you've gotten too much into that. But the one thing that we talk about a lot because I start meeting scientists, like we have discussed before when you have when doctors say there's no science and then you're meeting the bench researchers that are out there. There's gonna be a field like you're an orthopedic spine surgeon you're a subspecialty of a subspecialty. I'm a gastroenterologist I'm a subspecialty of a sub specialty. I guess yours is sub sub sub because you did spine after orthopedic. Your your next level, even though you didn't go to Texas Tech, we're gonna forgive you for that. Dr. Won  Thank you. Ken Brown  Yeah, that's, this is just for Eric because he gets so upset if we don't discuss that. But even when you're sitting there as a sub sub specialist, we've got all these people with knowledge in other fields, that then you start realizing you could be a sub sub specialist. So I've met researchers that I call Endocannabinoidologists because they understand so much on the molecular basis of the endocannabinoid system, which I think eventually we're going to get to, but I think all of it gets corrected if you eat right and live the right lifestyle. So our little disclaimers go to Atrantil.com or go to KBMdhealth.com and take a look at the CBD. So that's usually a Does that a whole lot smoother? That's not really my...Dr. Won  I think you did great. Ken Brown  We have to get that out of there. So, all right, getting back to you, because I this is a rare opportunity to have somebody with both your background, your your skill set. And now this this continual pursuit, this continual change. I'm very similar to you, I've realized at this stage of my life, that moving forward is what keeps me happy. Always trying to see okay, what what can we do? What can we do for the next thing? What can we do for the next level? I try to always talk about a recent news article or something and I want to bring this up. Not to put you on the spot. Dr. Won, How old are you?Dr. Won  I am 48 years old.Ken Brown  You don't look it 48 years old. Awesome. An article just came out out of the National Bureau of Economic Research, which takes on the myth that life begins at age 40. This is kind of interesting, according to this very large study, that they looked at over 257 different countries, different socio economic stages and all that. Fascinating that you're saying that Africa is now getting these Western diseases Dr. Won  Yes. Ken Brown  So it's it's, it's impervious to everybody. The whole world is having the same crisis that I think we face. We just got there a little quicker than everybody else. Dr. Won  Oh, absolutely.Ken Brown  What they looked at is that there is a U shaped curve for happiness. And as it turns out, it bottoms out at age 47.2. And the reason why I bring this up is that there's a lot of people and they were trying to figure out why is it genetics? Is it that the stressors are too much? Is it that disease start setting in right about then you start realizing your own mortality and all these other things. They don't know exactly why, but they were able to account for education, marital status, all these things. And they did show that although it bottoms out by 48 49, people are able to find their way out and they can usually do it through community and through purpose.Dr. Won   Yes.Ken Brown   So both you and I are beyond that now. So now we're in the happiness zone. And I think that you've done exactly that you got through a little curveball and you're like, I'm just gonna keep moving. and I'm going to do this through community and purpose. And what it sounds like, is that the first thing you did is say, I'm going to give free lectures. Tell me about that.Dr. Won  Yeah, so we've been hosting a free seminar, teaching people how to prevent and reverse their chronic disease, and through whole food plant based nutrition. And there's a it's not just in nutrition itself, but it's a whole lifestyle. And that's why we don't like to call it you know, plant based diet is a plant based nutrition and lifestyle. And what I realized was I started going into plant base once I lost a few of my colleagues to cancer, they're physicians, and I myself, always thought, Hey, you know, there's a chance that I might die from cancer and the reason for that is because I've done a tremendous amount of a minimally invasive surgery and use two interpretive X ray machines and, and got significant amount of radiation exposure.Ken Brown  Just explain real quick, minimally invasive and why you would have to be using an X ray machineDr. Won  So a traditional spine surgery, you would make a big incision, right and then open up the spine, take away the, you know, the fat, the fascia and the muscle and then strip all of them off and gain access to the spine. And the whole concept of minimally invasive surgeries, not disrupting the soft tissue, you would make a very small incision, and then utilizing the X ray machine at the time. Now these days, you can use imaging guidance with minimal amount of radiation. But when we were first starting out 15 years ago, it was the typical X ray machine. We were protected with Lead But still, we got a lot of exposure to radiation. So I used to joke around saying I'll probably die of cancer someday. But what I realized was that I don't want to die of cancer Who does? So I started doing just a lot of research how to prevent cancer. And I just, you know, went through about thousand different papers, scientific papers, I realized we all have cancer cells, every single one of us have cancer, so we have cancer. So when we're diagnosed with cancer is a clinically significant cancer that we which we can prevent In many times and reverse, even the study from the MD Anderson state state study showed that number one cause of a cancer was diet. Number two was the tobacco. Number three is obesity, which leads back to the diet, right? And then the genetics makes up the smallest percentage, you know, no more than five to 10%. So we actually have to controlKen Brown  Use your analogy one more time with a gun. I like that.Dr. Won  Yeah, it is the gene or genetic loads the gun, and then the diet and lifestyle pulls the trigger. And so in that we now with better understanding of epigenetics, that the the genes are like the light switches, depending on our nutrition and lifestyle, we actually have the ability to turn them on and turn them off. So So through that approach, I discovered whole food plant based nutrition, which has worked wonders for me, instantaneously, within six weeks, I lost about you know, 25 pounds, and after age 40. They said if you do exactly the same activities level eat same thing. You're going to gain about a pound or 2 every single year, if you know then within 10 years, that's additional 20 pounds. And so starting 40...Ken Brown  I'm sorry to interrupt. I just want to clarify this one thing you chose to go plant based Whole Foods based on the thousands of articles that you researched. Dr. Won  Yes. Ken Brown  So you were not like watching Netflix and stuff. I'm going to I'm going to follow this what the health diet or I'm going to do the game changers This is based you are not influenced you did it all on your own correct?Dr. Won  Yeah. So I actually did it before all those documentaries came out. And the researchers were there. And and what happened was one of my friends from medical school, he came to visit me at one time and then he gave me a book called China Study. And I thought, maybe because he knew that I was also into business. This was about economics book. I didn't even see the cover. And then I kind of put it in the bookshelf and I forgot about it for a long time. And then once I started doing the research, there's a The China Study kept on coming up. And I said, Wait a minute, I think I have a book called China Study. Written by Dr. Campbell from Cornell, and now pulled it out, read it cover to cover, along with other studies, and then realize you can actually reverse the disease. And this has been the studies been going on, you know, there's been studies since 1950s. And so I was convinced I said, You know what, I'm going to do this for myself. And without even trying at first thing I did was wait is, you know, important, but not the most important thing, but I instantaneously lost 25 pounds. And I was back at the weight when I was in high school. And you haven't seen many you know, you don't most people think there's not too many, you know, overweight or obese Asians? Well, in America, there are plenty not and maybe not in Asia, and I was becoming one of them. And so instantaneously, I was back into my high school weight. And then I started exercising on regular basis, and I felt so much better and now I'm I feel better and stronger than when I was in high school. And until about, you know, three years ago, I couldn't even do a single pull up. And and now I can do quite a bit and my goal is by the time I'm 50 I'm going to be able to do muscle up.Ken Brown  Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I got to actually Eric super into CrossFit. So he can teach you the whole technique on that. Dr. Won  That'll be great. Ken Brown  We can sit there and do that. It was on last week's show of the week before we actually discussed the fact that when coke really started penetrating China, that's really when their obesity problems started the high fructose corn syrup and all that Dr. Won  Oh, yeah. Yeah, all the the processed food, right. And then, you know, along with the, you know, meat consumption, and as a developed countries are getting wealthier and wealthier they're eating just like American Standard American Diet, right, all the processed food, all the sugar, all the the, you know, high fat animal products. Even in America, average Americans consume about 250 pounds of animal products every single year, which is a tremendous amount, right? And so, and then the China's Study...Ken Brown  How many pounds? Dr. Won  250 pounds. I thought that's a that's a lot right? That's average Americans since I'm I don't eat any somebody is eating 500 pounds of meat every single year right?Ken Brown  I'm gonna look at that cow and go. I'm gonna eat half of you this year. The whole cow.Dr. Won  That is a tremendous amount. I think they said also during the Superbowl, I don't know how they come up with the numbers. Every every year during the Superbowl people consume about 1.6 billion chicken wings. Oh my god.Ken Brown  1.6 billion chicken wings. Yes. For the for the Super Bowl. Dr. Won  Super Bowl. Ken Brown  All right. Yeah, that is a lot of wingless chickens running around.Dr. Won  Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know that the chicken these days doesn't look anything like the chickens from let's say even hundred years ago, because they're genetically modified, you know, and they have so much more antibiotics. They have so much more chemicals, growth hormones, and so people are so concerned about eating food that's not Genetically modified but most people in America don't know where the food comes from. And they don't really think about it especially when it's in a hamburger or chicken sandwich which they really do need to pay attention whether you're plant based or not, you should really know where your food comes from.Ken Brown  You know, I mean I love having you on here because even as gastroenterologist and even though I think like kind of we want to treat the whole body I've I have not spent that much time really going over the whole diet thing because I naively am like okay, this is the weight I want to be. This is kind of what I want to look like when I'm when I'm at the beach is you know, if I start not seeing the the ABS or we go from that six pack to the four pack to the two pack to the no pack. Then I just start working out more. Yeah. And I got a little rude wake up call. Last week I went to I have a functional medicine practitioner. His name's Kevin Wilson. It's smart wellness now. And you know, they they do real Like deep dive into the blood work so it isn't just HDL LDL, it's you know, it's LDL, C it's Apolipoprotein B, it's all this. And my cholesterol went up. I'm feeling better than I ever felt what? And he's like, yeah, you're doing something wrong, buddy. Yeah, and you know, and quite honestly, I'm pretty much paleo so i don't i don't really do dairy or gluten, but I will mowdown some meat. Got to eat my 500 lbs. So you got me rethinking. So he's given me three months to try and reverse this. So I'm starting a little bit slow and so I'm not I'm gonna start watching your videos for sure. Because I did the thing that most people do. I went and watch Game Changers on Netflix and and which is a very fascinating documentary in the sense that that got more traction than what the health and knives over forks and all those other vegan propaganda ones, because I think that they were talking about performance. Dr. Won  Yes, Ken Brown  What you're describing is exactly that you're you this is not an ethical thing. This is not a a conscious choice. You were like, No, I did my research this, I can be healthier.Dr. Won  Yes. I mean, I did this because for my health, and you know, I always tell people that I want to live until 120 years old, I may have had a better chance if I actually started when I was in my 20s.Ken Brown  You know, that will just be you. And Dave Aspy having tea together because he says the exact same thing on his podcast.Dr. Won  I think he says he wants to live forever. And so I don't know if that's possible yet. But they said he, if you do it, right, the kids who are born today have a potential to live until 150 years oldKen Brown  A hundred and 50 years old, have the potential?Dr. Won  Have the potential. But but the sad thing is the kids you know, between age 10 to 12 years old, what percentage of the kids actually have early signs of atherosclerosis? 75% Ken Brown  What? Dr. Won  75% of the kids between age 10 to 12 years old, have already fatty strix. Ken Brown  No! Dr. Won  They all found that the... Ken Brown  That's nuts there's no way! Dr. Won  Even the fetuses are now showing up. unfortunate event because, you know, whatever, you know, may have happened. But when they do an autopsy on fetus, even the fetus, some of the fetus actually have, you know, some fatty Strix, depending on Mother's, you know, a vascular system. Right? So, you're starting at life already having early signs of cardiovascular disease, what is that? Right? And so when mom said, you know, I'm really, you know, sensitive to listen moms who are pregnant, and then also parents, they have such a difficult, you know, challenges, you know, feeding their kids, but they're not really thinking about what they're serving them, right. And I cringe when I go to a breakfast, and then you know, next table, you know, parents are serving their kids bacon, or hotdogs, and the kids and the food that is known by World Health Organization as a group one carcinogen, right. So I think we need to really step back and educate the public and help them see what they're putting on their, on their table. And when I saw the article where the kids, you know, between 10 and 12 years old, 75% of them had already have signs of, you know, cardiovascular disease. I mean, that's terrible. We're not doing something right. And we spend so much money on managing the disease, which we don't do very well. But and, you know, completely forgetting about preventative medicine because there's no money in preventive medicine. Right? That's that was our mission is to actually go to community and and teach them how to eat properly. And so, so we've done not only lectures at our clinic, but also if anybody wants to hear us talk. We'll go and give a talk. And we've gone down to the south side and then the African American churches to church in Richardson at Methodist, you know, pretty much 99% Caucasian, you know, congregation. Or you know, community centers who wants to learn about...Ken Brown  You still have the guts to go to a nice Korean BBQ establishment and give a talk? I like Korean bbq man!Dr. Won  Yeah, you know, for whatever reason Koreans were known for Korean barbecue, but in Korea actually. Their health is declining like in China because the meat consumption has increased processed food, and then their lifestyle is changing. But you know, they used to be one of the healthiest country in the world, because they were too poor to actually eat meat. It wasn't available. Everyone wants to eat. So if you look at all the countries, all the cities and along the Blue Zones, the the cities that have the most amount of centenarians, most people are poor. So by being rich, yeah, you may have money to spend it, but you're actually ruining your health. Ken Brown  Alright. So I was going to ask you this, and it's a perfect it's a perfect segue right now. So I was talking to one of my patients today that she's going to be a guest here shortly what happens to have Crohn's disease and gives back to the community just like you she works as a counselor and does all this and she happens to be a speech therapist for underprivileged kids with autism. So part of this, you know, they, they send them with the with the school system. And so her and I started talking, I started talking about how last week we did a whole show on a chemical that makes plastic flexible, called DEHP you've been exposed to it a ton as a doctor. So have I that's what IV bags are. That's what the tubing is, all the catheters and tools that we use to be flexible so that we're not puncturing where we don't want to use this chemical dehp. And when you said in utero, they're finding stuff as it turns out in utero, if a if a woman is exposed to it, it just goes to the fetus and causes all kinds of stuff. Dr. Won  Oh, wow. Ken Brown  So what her and I talked about is I'm like man, well, what can what can you do to circumvent this autism at you know, I mean, basically epidemic She's like they're too poor to eat healthy. Dr. Won  Yeah. Ken Brown  So now you just said that when countries were poor, they ate healthier. So let's talk about the cost of, of living your lifestyle. Is it possible if I don't have a high income to eat a plant based whole food diet?Dr. Won  Absolutely. When people are thinking Whole Foods plant based, I think a lot of people get that confused and they think it's vegan. And then and they get meat replacement products, which are actually quite expensive. Right?Dr. Won  So when you do... Ken Brown  This guy did that when he watched game changers and it didn't work out well. Dr. Won  Yeah. Ken Brown  Because I think the either the fillers or the soy or something may be very inflamed. Dr. Won  Yeah. Ken Brown  So I backed off.Dr. Won  So one of the things I really you know, it's also talked to the vegan community is that you know, they've already given up the meat which is the one of the most difficult thing for a lot of people. However, they also need to get away from the processed food because most of the the meat replacement products are processed. So when you're eating a whole food plant based, you are eating non processed or minimally processed food. And so the best place you know, and the best pharmacy is actually with F, you know, FARMACY right Farmacy is in the produce section, that is the medicine, that's where people need to go shop. And so if you get dried beans, it costs pennies, right? Versus, you know, getting ground beef or getting chicken breast. So actually eating whole food plant based can be very, very inexpensive. That's why and along the the Blue Zones, the you know, like nicoya, Costa Rica, Okinawa, Japan, you know, Sardinia, and aquaria. All those countries, all those communities, people were relatively poor, they're not wealthy at all, even especially like nicoya they were eating mostly beans Ken Brown  Where's the Nicoya? Dr. Won  Costa Rica. Ken Brown  Okay. Dr. Won  Yeah. And it's one of the cities and Blue Zones that has the most amount of centenarians, right? And and there were most they're all 98% eating plants because they were too poor to eat meat. And they're living beyond and then they didn't necessarily go to the gym, you know, or CrossFit or 24 Hour Fitness, because they walked every day everywhere, they didn't have cars, right? So they're moving their body every single day. They're eating mostly plant, and because that's all they had available to them. And then they had sense of community and, and they had sense of purpose. And you mentioned purpose earlier, I think that is so critical. You have to have a reason for living, right? You have to have why, as long as you have why, and sense of purpose, no matter what challenges are in front of you, you can overcome them. And that's how powerful human beings are. And if you decide to just give up, that is a failure. And no matter how many mistakes you make, how many, you know, failures and debt that you face, as long as you stand back up, and then continue to, you know, pursue your purpose and your why I think Most people will be very, very happy.Ken Brown  Yeah, I think that you saying that you came at 11 years old, you started your journey, probably not the easiest time in your life.Dr. Won  Not at all, I didn't know how to speak English. And but all our family, you know, including my parents, we worked as a janitors, you know, don't want to get my parents in trouble. But when we're 12,13,14 years old, we used to go help our parents, you know, clean the toilets in the building and then I still pass by one of the buildings we used to clean when I was 14 years old. And and that's what we did as a family. And then they, you know, open to the flea market store. My mother was shot at, you know, twice when she was working at the flea market store when she was being robbed. Right. And luckily, they missed, thank goodness and then where my parents lived after I left for college. There was a drive by shooting at my parents house. They got the wrong House, it was supposed to be the next door. But my parents were asleep. And then fortunately, their windows were shattered. And so, you know, we grew up very humble. And a lot of people think that, you know, you're a doctor, you must have come from a doctor family. That wasn't the case at all. And we live in the government assisted housing. But, you know, our parents always gave us you know, good foundation, and always, you know, taught us to have purpose in life. And that really, you know, sunk in with us for you know, since we were little child Yeah, and, and in always the life force, you know, living the life with purpose, and, and that was our mission.Ken Brown  So, you come over here you go through this kind of hardship. Now, we kind of tongue in cheek, talked about how I hope you're as smart as Eric obviously Eric's a very smart guy. He's my crna and he's he could he's still continues to do whatever he wants to do he has entrepreneurial spirit very, very like minded like us. He's very big into purpose into raising his kids the right way and all that stuff. But your your academic background is super impressive. I mean, you know, just for the average person that says, Oh, that's a doctor. Now there's levels of doctor, there's levels of med schools, you gotta really work to get into some of these places. And I, I'm just so impressed that you basically have to put your career that you were worked so hard to do, and you went awesome. I'm gonna work on this now. I love that. I think that is the coolest thing. And I'm learning for you. So I want to ask you a couple quick questions. Dr. Won  Yes.Ken Brown  Because these are the arguments that I get. So the community that I'm in I'm in fact, I should. We'll we'll talk afterwards, but I've been part of some really cool entrepreneurial groups, where it's just like minded people that all they do is sit around and say don't step on this land mine. I blew off my left, you know, theoretically, in a business sense, I blew up my left foot doing that I wouldn't do that, try this software instead try this thing and you know, you read books and stuff like that. Well, a lot of these people are the Paleo community, and they're really smart people, Chris kresser, Rob Wolf, you know, become friends with them in these groups. And what what I'm hearing is, is that in Kevin Wilson, my doctor is not plant based. He's very big into paleo and all these other things. So a couple curveballs towards you. Dr. Won  Sure. Ken Brown  All right. Let's talk about the thing that I get asked a whole lot. Lectins. So you said Dr. Beans do this, what's your thought on lectins? Do they create and then that's going to lead us into the microbiome and and eventually into your entrepreneurial spirit where you continue to grow? So that's where I want to head with this. But can we talk about lectins real quick?Dr. Won  Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a you know, very interesting topic. And so if you think about the Lectin especially in the beans, no one can eat them being raw. You don't eat dry beans, you can eat it, you can't digest it, and we don't recommend it. Right? Because if you eat it, you're going to get nauseated, you're probably gonna throw up. However, if you cook them properly, right, all the lectins are gone, right? And so lectins are there so that the plants can protect itself and so a little bit it's actually healthy for you because you're stressing your body. However once you cook them... Ken Brown  Hormesis.Dr. Won  Yes, absolutely right.Ken Brown  The term Hormesis means that you stress your body a little bit so it adapts.Dr. Won  YesKen Brown  That's why we exercise that's why we fast that's why we do things.Dr. Won  That's why you know, we get exposed to heat that's why we take cold showers right? Ken Brown  I don't take cold showers. I refuse to go that route. I'll sit in a sauna but I will not do a cold shower.Dr. Won  You should try it you know maybe 10 seconds first and you know 15 seconds in the beginning you hate it. But you'll learn to love it. But the lectins...Dr. Won  We're gonna get to elections really quick. Just Just this reminds me my late father in law passed away a few years ago, we were watching a show on navy seals. And a Navy SEAL actually did a obstacle course, where he first soaked himself in warm water, and then did the course. And then they put him in ice water. And then within a sofigel probe, they show that he dropped his core temperature and then through various Navy SEAL techniques, he raised his core temperature. And so my father in law, this is on Christmas, this is about 10 years ago, goes you know, it's Dallas, it's not that cold, but it's cold enough. It's It was like 30 or 40 or something. He goes, I bet you can't even get in that pool. I went out there with my son and my father in law and I jumped in and like a total weenie jumped out in about 10 seconds. So the whole cold thing I think that's funny, but all right, that's the whole point is is that lectins can do this. Let's get back to lectinsDr. Won  Yeah, so but once you actually properly cooked the meals, yeah, I recommend soaking them at least for eight hours or even 24 hours.Ken Brown  Soaking the beans first?Dr. Won  Yes, soak the beans minimum of eight hours. If you have a pressure cooker you don't need to soak them you just dump it in there and you cook itKen Brown  Do can beans qualify?Dr. Won  The can beans are already cooked so you don't even need to cook it you can just open it and start eating them.Ken Brown  Do you find can beings unhealthy or do you always do whole food? Dr. Won  At the house we have both dry beans and canned beans because to make it a little bit more convenient, right. And the can beans are, the studies have shown that they still retain just as much nutrients. And so when I'm really busy, I would open up a can can beans with the my whole grains and mix them up along with different kinds of spices and then along with different greens, but once you cook the bean most of the lectins are gone. So there's really nothing to worry about. And so you don't need to take Lectin you know, supplements or anything like that. If you properly cook the food, then there's really no issues with lectin and if you think about it, so beans are the most known for lectins right? Every single one of the cities, right? There's one common theme among Blue Zones, five cities that has the most amount of centenarians, right? The research by Dan Buettner from National Geographics every single one of them that the common theme was Beans, beans, beans, beans Ken Brown  Shut up! Really? Dr. Won  Every single one of them there was their main source of protein was their beans.Ken Brown  Dang. And I've actually been avoiding them because I'm trying to you know, I've just kind of go with the no grain thing.Dr. Won  Yeah, so the beans is one of the healthiest thing one can consume. Not only it's a great source of protein, but also it's also has so many fodder nutrients. And I consider them as a superfood really, really cheap. Super food, Ken Brown  What are your favorite beans? Dr. Won  All of them, but we have at the house about 10 different kinds of beans. And then when I make grains I usually mix like black beans, pinto beans, white beans, navy beans, kidney beans, along with let's say buckwheat brown rice, wild black rice, barley, mix them up, and then that's how I make the rice and so rice and beans. I don't you know we definitely avoid any refined grains such as white rice,Ken Brown  Oh you do? Dr. Won  Yeah, I we avoid any kind of white anything that's white right?Ken Brown  Okay, so I hope that helped my wife is listening my wife's Puerto Rican. Dr. Won  Uh huh. Ken Brown  So i mean...beans and rice. Yeah, it's just pretty much it's whatever. I'm like, Honey, what are we having? She's like salmon, and beans and rice.Dr. Won  Yeah. That's good. And you just got to put in some greens.Ken Brown  But but but but you avoid the white rice Dr. Won  White rice. Yeah. So the...Ken Brown  As a Korean you still avoid white rice because we love I mean, that's actually our favorite. If we're going to globalize our cuisine for my family, I got a 15 year old a 13 year old and we essentially eat Japanese in this order. Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese almost anytime we get a chance to eat out.Dr. Won  You're inner asian. Ken Brown  I'm we are definitely Yeah, it's a it is it is definitely our favorite cuisine. So we end up eating a lot of rice. Dr. Won  Yeah. So interesting fact is that the, the in Asia, you know, while back the white rice was you know, it's extra process right? So this was actually for aristocrats or the wealthy individuals, all the poor people ate brown rice, which is less processed it's unprocessed. Right? And so the the poor people actually live longer they were healthier than rich people, right? Same thing happened 100 years ago, the rich people ate white bread, right? And then the the poor people ate the whole grain bread. And guess what it was a poor people who are healthier, right? So you know, grains, especially white grains, they're extra processed. And so and also raises your blood sugar level much, much faster and raise you know, increases more insulin production or release of insulin. So we try to avoid anything that's processed. So including the the grains. So if you eat you know, brown rice or you know buckwheat barley, black white rice those are the grains that I would recommend that I say it's whole grains not grains, whole grains, Dr. Won  Whole grains?Dr. Won  whole grain.Ken Brown  Beans, beans, okay lectins get destroyed when they get soaked and then followed by cooking and or canned. Dr. Won  Yes. Ken Brown  And then...Dr. Won  Because canned beans are cooked. Ken Brown  Can can beans are cooked and as far as the grains, so yeah, the This works really well for you. And I know right now that there's, you know what I've seen with diets, especially when people make a living like if they have a book or so I mean, I hung out with Rob wolf, the guy looks amazing. He's been keto for 10 years. And Chris kresser is essentially you know, straight up paleo and, you know, I know his blood work is amazing. We've talked about that. And so there are, you know, the the things that actually work it's not working for me. My doctor just told me that's why I'm like, Oh, yeah, we need to we need to call Doug, I need to I need I need to eat his brain and figure out what's going on here because maybe my genetics, so you use the term epigenetics a little while ago. Explain what epigenetics actually is, because there's some confusion around this.Dr. Won  Yeah. So just to simply put it way I like to explain it is our gene is like a light switch. Right? So we are born with certain genes, unfortunately, for some people, and they may have a greater risk of developing certain type of disease. But just because you carry the gene does not actually mean you're actually going to develop those disease. But there's a lot of external factors, environmental factors, including the cancers, right. And so by a proper nutrition and lifestyle, you actually have the ability to turn the genes on or turn them off. So what that tells us is that you actually have a full control. So you know, like Elizabeth Blackburn who won a Nobel prize from UT Southwestern for discovering telomeres did a study with the Ken Brown  She's the one that discovered telomere races?Dr. Won  Yeah. So along with the telomeres, and that's what she, she won the Nobel Prize,Ken Brown  Did not know that wow, out of here, out of here in DallasDr. Won  Yeah at UT Southwestern. Ken Brown  That's, that's impressive.Dr. Won  So she did the research with Dean Ornish, and they got group of patients who had early stage prostate cancer. And then when they did the genetic study, all the over 500 cancer genes were actually turned on. And then they spent three months changing their diet and lifestyle. And then they did the the genetic study again, all the genes were actually cancer genes were turned off over 550 cancer genes, Uncle genes are turned off. So you only took them three months o so especially prostate cancer, right? Especially if you catch them early stage, you really want to treat them with diet and lifestyle change. They said the the traditional surgery, whether it's a chemo or the surgery does not prolong only one out of 49 people actually live longer after getting traditional, conventional medical treatment.Ken Brown  Well, when you start looking at some of this, I listened to a podcast called medical reversals. It was on Freakonomics, the Freakonomics podcast. And they they actually had some doctors on there. And they and if you look back at all these medical reversals, so basically your doctor says, do this, and then we go, Oh, no, that was wrong, because now we've looked at our cohorts of 10,000 patients over 10 years. We can go on and on about that the estrogen replacement therapy, one of the things that's been brought up and I brought this up to my doctor because my cholesterol is statins and statins have not been shown to improve lifespan. And so the question is, do they actually decrease the incidence of events, but it has not been shown to improve lifespan. So now I start. I'm at that stage in my career in medicine where I'm starting to question so many things. I'm having patients come to me, and well, let's throw this one out with autoimmune disease. And you and I were talking about this I treat a lot of Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis. I use drugs like Remicade and humera. Have you had any experience with as an orthopedist you're going to be exposed to rheumatoid arthritis, you're going to be exposed to ankylosing spondylitis. Poly arthropathy from these other things. Have you had any wins with using your method?Dr. Won  Absolutely. So some of them are my patients and some of them are attendees to our free seminars. And I gave an example of Denise she gave us a permission to talk about her. And so she came to us suffering from severe rheumatoid arthritis and she's been on multiple medications, even methylstrexate as in the past and humira. And humira costs 25 to $50,000 a year. Right? And one of the side effects is heart failure. And she began to have a severe heart issue. So they had to take her off. And and she she was in severe pain. And so I said, you know, you got nothing to lose. You tried everything else. So why don't you try a whole food plant based nutrition, and that's what she did. She did that. January 1, 2018. Within two months, she was in remission. All the pains were goneKen Brown  On her alright rheumatoid arthritis? Dr. Won  Rheumatoid arthritis. Ken Brown  So rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disease. Autoimmune means you something turns a genetic switch on and your body starts attacking yourself. In gastroenterology, I see it with all sort of colitis, Crohn's disease, celiac disease, autoimmune hepatitis. In your field. You see it with the joints.Dr. Won  With the joints rheumatoid arthritis, but we also I've seen patients with multiple sclerosis, right? And actually, this was another patient who walked in or not walked in, came into the clinic on a wheelchair and had multiple sclerosis. So we actually... Ken Brown  In a wheelchair?Dr. Won  In a wheelchair.Ken Brown  That's very advanced MSDr. Won  It's pretty advanced. And and the patient went whole food plant based, and was six to eight months later, when they came back for a follow up visit. He actually walked out walked in with a cane. So he still had weakness, but it got him off the wheelchair and now he's able to strong enough to actually walk with a cane. Ken Brown  Just diet change? Dr. Won  Just a diet change. And he was off to all the medications and he's not the only one and there's a one lifestyle medicine physician even up in New Jersey, a good friend. She was initially infectious disease doctor and during her residency or fellowship, she woke up one day completely paralyzed. Ken Brown  What? Dr. Won  And that's how she discovered she had multiple sclerosis. And to a point she was walking with a cane and she was bad to get on a wheelchair. And she made the she discovered she read an article about blueberries, right? She said No way. There's no way and this can't be and she starts researching and really realized the autoimmune disease starts from the gut. And she needed to find a way to decrease inflammation. And she needed to once she healed her gut, and she changed her complete, you know, nutrition when whole food plant based. 10 years later, she ran a marathon.Ken Brown  I'm sorry, I don't have any Kleenex. Do you have any Kleenex because I have tears of joy. I just had an orthopedic surgeon say that. Everything starts in the gut. Oh,Dr. Won  Yeah. We think that you know, a lot of the the lifestyle medicine physicians and believe that autoimmune disease may be in a different sort of autoimmune disease, whether it's rheumatoid arthritis, Hashimoto thyroiditis, multiple sclerosis, maybe it disease, it all starts from the gut. And then it manifests to a different disease based on our genetic makeup. And so our treatment method whether it's, you know, lupus, multiple sclerosis, you know, Hashimoto thyroiditis, it's all pretty similar. You know, they may, we may make little bit of a different protocol for them, but overall as a whole food plant based, and many of them improve significantly.Ken Brown  Wow, that is. So we've actually, that's actually a common theme that we talked about, we have brought some people in, but my thing is we've got lots of data to show that when you have an inflammation in your gut, that leads to an inflammatory cascade that can cause this epigenetic phenomenon. And so somebody sitting around listening, so I want to talk about what else you have going on, which means that you've taken it to the next level, but I everything about, about this show and about what we want to do is talk science first. Clearly, you're a brilliant And you know, you're, I'm a, I'm a gut doctor. So you know your s-h-i-t. So I wanted to throw this article out at you because it's fascinating that we can talk disease. And I could sit there and say if you've got rheumatoid arthritis if you got ms if you have anything, but there's also one underlying thing that happens to all of us and you keep talking about the Blue Zones. A recent review article, my little secret weapon will eventually be able to disclose who it is, but she sent me an article yesterday. And with you coming on it is a review article on the new insights for cellular and molecular mechanism of aging and aging related diseases. herbal medicine is a potential therapeutic approach. So in other words, what this title says is, yo we're all aging. And why do you want to load the gun faster than it should be loaded? So what this article looked at is they go into the background A little bit where 900 million people in the world are over the age of 60. Dr. Won  Wow. Ken Brown  And you just pointed out that it doesn't matter where you live now it looks like it's it's pretty much spreading everywhere. So aging, which can be divided into both pathologic and physiologic. So if you are perfectly healthy, you're going to physiologically age if you choose to load your gun faster, that's pathologic aging. And this article gets into really cool geeky science about the complex biological processes and the decline of tissue and origins and structural degeneration and then they go into telomeres and then they go into the fat, a common thing keeps popping up. And it is reactive oxygen species or oxidative stress. Dr. Won  Yes. Ken Brown  So stress at a cellular level, or inflammation at a subtle level leads to aging. Dr. Won  Yes. Ken Brown  So if you didn't care about anything about the fetus having a heart attack or a 10 year old having coronary artery disease, We spend a lot of money trying to look younger. I just got done talking about the other article that said that at age 47, maybe that's when men look in the mirror and go, Oh, I'm I'm there. I don't know. It all comes down to reactive oxygen species. This leads to they can actually get into the actual mechanism. So one of the things I run into that we have discussed, which is I'm sure you've run into because I think your field is a little bit less holistic than gi, which is probably because the gut affects so many things. But I imagine if you're trying to talk to one of your colleagues at a conference and say hey, plant based they probably look at you like what?Dr. Won  Yeah, I'm I don't represent typical look of orthopedic surgeon right? So if you imagine orthopedic surgeon those of you who don't know like in medical school, we are like the cords pedic surgeon smart jocks, right? Everyone's hitting the gym, you know, bone broke me fix. Big guys, ex-thletes, right? And then somehow I snuck in as a nerd, right?Ken Brown  So I have I have a friend who played football for the San Francisco 49 years played at the University of Notre Dame. And we have or he's very good friends with orthopedic surgeon named Brian rhadigan. And he played linebacker for Notre Dame, and if there is ever the avatar of what I thought this guy was just jacked, and you know, and he's an orthopedic surgeon now for Notre Dame. Dr. Won  Wow. Ken Brown  But anyways, yeah, so yeah, you you are talking different than the typical orthopedic surgeon.Dr. Won  Yeah. And so but yeah, but I think even with orthopedics, and also especially in spine, some of our patients, after if they choose to follow our diet and lifestyle modification, they came back even with herniated disc, most of the inflammation was gone, pain was gone, and so they they would cancel the surgery. I said Congratulations, right. And so if I can help patients, that surgery is definitely the last resort.Ken Brown  Say that one more time you got paid to operate and you were happy when you didn't have to operate?Dr. Won  Yeah, absolutely. Because there's plenty of patients who's not following the lifestyle modification and who is in agony, who failed all the conservative treatment, who's going to need the surgery. But you know, what I would love to be able to do is to prove to the medical community that so many of the surgeries and procedures that we do are completely unnecessary, because if people are willing to make the lifestyle modification, if the physicians actually know and teach their patients, how to make the modification, because most of them do not know. Right, then I think, you know, many people can avoid significant surgical procedures, whether it's a cardiac cath open, you know, open heart surgeries, which we know that does not extend anybody's life, right. And same thing with spine surgery. And, you know, orthopedics is a little bit If you break a bone, you broke a bone and you need surgery to fix it right?  Ken Brown  Don't try to hobble into whole foods after that skiing accident.Dr. Won  I don't think that whole foods is  going to fix that broken bone, but it may help you heal faster, but you're probably going to still need surgery. And so that is one of my mission and I get a great enjoyment out of it. And you know, I remember one patient who walked in who had a thoracic herniated disc. And you know, in order to do the surgery, we have to do a thoracotomy. So basically cracking our chest open the compress the lung in order to get to the spine from the front. And I said, you really don't want to have this surgery. We can do it if you want to. However, why don't you give me three months make this changes come back in three months. If it doesn't work, then we'll go ahead and do the surgery. She came back to clinic and three months along with her husband, she lost 40 pounds. He lost 60 pounds, right? And she said her pain was gone. And she said doctor, I don't need your service. anymore awesome congratulations. So I think it is very possible and you know once once you have seen that I just get a kick out of itKen Brown  I'm feeling like a little jerk right now because we did a show on using cell phones while there people around the bathroom doing social media posts and I I told everybody to keep doing that because it creates hemorrhoids so they can come see me. I feel like a jerk. I'm over there encouraging, sit on the toilet longer and make an appointment with me.Dr. Won  That's funny.Ken Brown  Oh, you're making me look bad man. I want to talk about something about this article because I we use the term reactive oxygen species all the time. Now one of the things that they got deep into this article is about a lot of the end origin disease that kills most of us. cardiac disease strokes. dementia. A lot of it comes down to blood vessels. Yes, the endotheliam meaning that as our blood vessels, all this inflammation leads to endothelial dysfunction, and impaired activity and arterial stiffness. And the reason why I bring this up is because I'll plug this the polyphenols and Atrantil we do know that they actually improve the most polyphenols when taken in. There's literature for this. But when we first launched Atrantil we did it strictly for people that bloated and then we had all these people that kept staying on it. And that's when I started backing up because I was looking at one little problem then went, Oh, this is actually it's sad that it's that I'm now learning because all I've been doing is doing plant based, but I started with a pill and now I'm working my way to lifestyle. Yeah, which you're doing lifestyle. And you realized, Hey, I can help people in different ways. So you noticed immediately that endothelium is really important. And when we talked before and you brought me some gifts, I would like to talk about what else you have going on here because very clearly, you have put some serious thought into this. And then I came backwards. I started with a plant based product to treat something and now I'm learning about a plant based lifestyle. Yeah, you did the opposite. You started plant based lifestyle and said, I'm going to produce the best product for that. Yeah. So tell me what you got here.Dr. Won  Yeah, so one of the things that we developed was, is called Neo Nox is a nitric oxide booster,Ken Brown  Neo NoxDr. Won  neo neo, no x, no x, and this product was developed without intention of developing a supplement company. what we realized was as I was doing research, even as a physician, we knew that heart disease was a number one killer, but I didn't realize how severe it was. It is actually the number one killer of both men and women worldwide. Right? And, you know,Ken Brown  Yeah we start seeing once women go into menopause. Yeah, they get the same risk as men.Dr. Won  Yeah, exactly. And, and so and a lot of women just getting neglected and they think it's a man's disease. And but women develop a cardiovascular disease just as much as the guys and, and one in three deaths in us is related to vascular disease. So pretty significant amount. And it all comes down to endotheliam and nitric oxide, what I realized was the most important molecule in our body because it saves endotheliam, and is produced it within our endotheliam. However, as we age, by the time you're 40, you lose about 50% of your ability to produce it. By the time you're 60 you lose about 85% of your ability to produce nitric oxideKen Brown  Say that one more time.Dr. Won  So by the time you're 40, you lose about 50% of your ability to produce nitric oxide, which is the most important molecule in our body.Ken Brown  Why do why do we do that? Dr. Won  So a few things number one is produced in your endotheliam. Right intercellular is basically the inner lining of your artery. And so, as we age, we develop atherosclerosis, we damage the endotheliam. So therefore, we lose the ability to produce the, the nitric oxide, but along with that... Ken Brown  So the inflammatory process damaging the endotheliam does not allow us to produce the one molecule to repair the endotheliam.Dr. Won  Exactly. And so and not only the nitric oxide, is that the strongest vasodilator that lowers of blood pressure, and then also vasodilate the vessels so they're more nutrients and oxygen can be delivered to the end organs, right. It also stimulates the stem cells and activates the stem cells and mobilizes the stem cells, Ken Brown  nitric oxide does? Dr. Won  Nitric oxide, and that's how we really actually got into the nitric oxide because we knew we needed to boost the nitric oxide to our patient when we're doing orthopedic stem cell therapy, right to to help them prevent either You know rotator cuff tendonitis and tear surgeries Ken Brown  We had we had weighed with 10 on our show the orthopedist. Dr. Won  Yeah. Ken Brown  From Fort Worth that had the the Panama stem cell clinic.Dr. Won  Yes. Yeah. Ken Brown  We deep dived into stem cells. That's some cool stuff. Yeah.Dr. Won  And but, but most people are looking for that magic pill. They want the injections, right? And the stem cell therapy, but you need to activate them and people who needed the most are typically 60 Plus, right, sometimes 40 Plus, but most of the patients we have arthritis are 60 Plus, but they can't really activate their stem cells because they don't have any nitric oxide. That's part of the reason why people develop cardiovascular disease. people develop diabetes, right? people develop erectile dysfunction, which is a vascular disease. Right. And so that's, that's why the even Biograph Cialis only works on 50% of the population.Ken Brown  So one of the reasons why game changers has been so much more well received is that they have a whole segment on nighttime boners Yeah. And how eating a plant based diet actually improves erectile dysfunction. Dr. Won  Yes. Ken Brown  And so and not just erectile dysfunction actually improves nocturnal erections I should say. Yeah, boner seems a little bit unprofessional. Dr. Won  You are a doctor.Ken Brown  But um, yeah. So that's, that's one of the things so it's, it's when you talk anti aging or you talk sexual performance, that's what people spend all their money. Yes. They don't sit there and go, Oh, I'm going to have a heart attack. Yeah, when really, it's all the same process. It's all the same thing. The thing that's making you look older, the thing that's making you not perform as well in bed is the exact same that's going to kill you! Dr. Won  Exactly. And, and, you know, the dementia, which are mostly now we're realizing that is a vascular disease also, because you're just not getting enough blood to your brain, right. And so, and also lack of energy, you know, after age 40, everyone's fatigue suffering from fatigue, lack of energy, because  mitochondrial biogenesis is actually initiated by nitric oxide also. So it helps nitric oxide stimulates the production of mitochondria, which is the energy source. Ken Brown  There we go. Yeah, so that's the that's the energy source of every cell. Every cell has a little power plant. Yes, it's called the mito

It’s a dawn of a new day. The secondary market is scrambling to find a new home and we look at the impact this has on bourbon growth. MGP stock prices took a major hit after reports came out that aged stock hasn’t been selling and we look at new competitors in the bulk contract game. Missouri is putting itself on the map having a legally designated bourbon, but are there ulterior motives? With Knob Creek re-instating the 9 year age statement, does it make it one of the best values in bourbon? With all of these coming together, how are brands being perceived? All this on Bourbon Community Roundtable #35 Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Reddit AMA with the Russell’s https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/cme0nf/hey_reddit_im_wild_turkey_master_distiller_eddie/ This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about drinking bourbon how you want. Let's discuss the fallout of the secondary market on Facebook. How do you think the secondary groups will shift? What do you think of the MGP stock plummeting? https://www.barrons.com/articles/mgp-ingredients-stock-aged-whiskey-sales-earnings-51564610232 Is MPG now competing with new distillate like Willet? Do they still have higher age bourbon stock? Let's talk about the new Missouri rules for bourbon. http://whiskyadvocate.com/missouri-bourbon-whiskey-style/ Do you think this will happen in other states? What do you think of Knob Creek restoring their 9-Year Age Statement? http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2019/06/knob-creek-to-restore-9-year-age.html Are Knob Creek picks the best value in bourbon? Is the market oversaturated with Knob Creek picks? Have you seen variances in Knob Creek single barrel picks? How do you perceive brands when they raise prices? Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from breakingbourbon.com, and Sara from barbelleblog.com for joining. 0:00 Have you held a bottle of bourbon in your hand and wondered how that was made? Sure there is the grains and the barrels and all the science that goes into it. But what about the packages on glass manufacturing, shipping logistics, or purchase orders for thousands of cork stoppers. These are only a handful of things you need to know. But with the University of Global's new online distilled spirits business certificate, you're only a few clicks away learning from industry experts. all that's required is a bachelor's degree. Go to business.louisville.edu slash online spirits. We got the four of us tonight so we're going to like I said a little bit of a skeleton crew but that's okay. Also, just the four of us know Ryan either know Ryan either he's, he's not feeling too We. 0:45 We had it we had a pretty good week. Hey, everyone, 1:00 it's Episode 213 1:01 of bourbon pursuit. And this is a Community Roundtable recording. So we've only got just a little bit of news that we didn't talk about in the podcast. And the first one is there was a Reddit AMA or an asking anything with Bruce and Eddie Russell. There was a lot of talk about the cornerstone rye, which is part of their newest release. But there was one question that came up on the subject of dusty that I found pretty interesting. And talked about if there's any plans to release some older age dated bottles that have a similar makeup or construct a some of the dust sees that they've had before. Obviously, some of the thrill them is that they're no longer produced. And, you know, we've all had a taste of probably try some mid 80s, Wild Turkey, cheesy gold foil and the likes of that. And of course, many of us would like to think that hell that it's never going to happen. No one can replicate dusty, but here's what Eddie said in response to that. He said that there is some stuff development that's as close to cheesy gold foil. As we've gotten since that release. The taste is very similar. Well, that's quite the cliffhanger and that's about the juiciest detail I could find. If you want to read the entire Reddit AMA. You can get the link in our show notes. Today's episode was recorded back on Monday, August 5, which would have been Elmer T. Lee's 100th birthday. We talked a little bit on the show because Jordan gave us a reminder, but what we didn't expect was to see Buffalo Trace distillery, releasing a commemorative bottle in honor of his hundredth birthday. Here's a little information on Elmer that you may have never heard before. On August 5 1919 Elmer t Lee was born on a tobacco farm near peaks mill in Franklin County, Kentucky. Elmer served as a radar Bombardier on the 29 flights with the US Army Air Force in World War Two. After flying Michigan's Japan through 1945 Elmer was honorably discharged in 1940 six. He then earned an engineering degree from the University of Kentucky and graduated with honors in 1949. Upon graduation, he started work at the distillery which back then was known as the George t stag distillery, where he eventually was named General Manager. He worked at the distillery and kind of marking a milestone in his career, he created the first ever single barrel bourbon that was called Blanton's in 1984. He then retired in 1985. Elmer continued to serve as an ambassador for Buffalo Trace distillery, and the whiskey world up until his death in 2013. In honor what would have been almost 100 birthday Buffalo Trace distillery has announced they are releasing a 100 proof commemorative bottling of Elmer t leap, this 100 year tribute single barrel bourbon proceeds from the bottle of this sales will go towards the Frankfurt VFW post 4075 where else 4:00 was a former member. This is once again as you'd think a limited edition one time only release with the same age and Nashville as a standard routinely. But this whiskey is bottled at 100 proof and the suggested retail prices $100. Now, this Roundtable, it goes through a lot of topics where we start from the secondary market Fallout to deciding if bourbon brands care about their market perception. It's it really goes in a lot of different directions and I really hope you enjoy it. But for now, you're done listening to me. So let's go hear from my friend Joe over a barrell bourbon, and then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits, we enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cast rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Find out more at barrell bourbon.com. 4:54 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. This morning I made myself a big ol plate spaghetti for breakfast. That's right. I love eating weird things for breakfast sandwiches, steaks, spaghetti, random hot dogs, and so forth. I'm not a guy who typically follows the breakfast train of thought he have to have eggs and sausage. Although if I biscuits and gravy on the menu, it's over. I'm definitely ordering that. And I do like omelets. And you know, I like to play around. But I'm not someone who kind of follows the traditions of various meals. Sometimes I'll want eggs at dinner for example. And the only reason why I tell you this is because I feel like people in bourbon often want permission to drink bourbon a certain way or drink bourbon in the morning, you know before you go out fishing or at lunch when you're out with your colleagues. Bottom line is you drink bourbon how you want to and there are some rules that you should follow like I wouldn't if you spent 1500 dollars on a bottle of bourbon. I wouldn't mix it with coke if you paid $9 for one I would suggest like seeing if you really like it neat in you know, maybe use that as your cocktail mixing bourbon. But there really are no rules you drink bourbon how you want to. I will say that I've also stepped out of my comfort zone with bourbon in the last few years by making bourbon slushies. I think bourbon slushies are so wonderful and they tend to be the kind of wonderful introduction. It's a great way to introduce bourbon to someone who does not necessarily like bourbon or want to drink it neat. So if you have a little bit of time, go check out my bourbon slushy recipe, you'll be able to find it on bourbon plus.com here pretty soon. The irony of course is of just a few years ago, I was making fun of bourbon slushies. So let that be a warning to all of you. Be careful who you make fun of with what they drink is one day, you might find yourself pouring a little bit bourbon with a bunch of ice and lemon juice and sugar and making a slushy yourself. Also try spaghetti in the morning. It's pretty good. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram. That's at Fred Minnick again at Fred Minnick. Cheers. 7:22 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. This is the 35th recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. This is something where we get some of the best bloggers and best writers on the scene to come and just talk about what's happening in bourbon culture. And we are chock full with all kinds of things that have been happening in the past three weeks. This is something that we do every three weeks to kind of get caught up on really what's happening with bourbon news. And, you know, we're not going to talk too much about kind of what's on the horizon. Everybody knows that. It's fall season, Fall season means release season. So we might say that one for the next round table after this. But there's a new face of the Round Table tonight. So I want you to Sarah to everybody. So Sarah, welcome to the show. 8:09 Thank you. Thanks. I've been writing a little evil spirits for about, I guess, 20 years now. So I wrote for 15 years at Leo is the barbell and then now I'm over at a inserted level until Wednesday as the culture editor, and that's actually shutting down Wednesday. So if there's anybody in town or outside of town that needs bourbon content, let me know. 8:36 Yeah, she's she's being very, very modest about it. So Sarah havens was like, she was like the bourbon beat writer for Louisville. Like anytime there was a new release a distillery opening or anything like that it by far had the biggest traction that you saw of any sort of local publication. So she did a fantastic job and all her write ups and being able to come with a very journalistic perspective as well. So thank you. Yeah, you're giving yourself not a lot of credit, Terry, you need a little bit more. And so with that, let's go ahead and there's two more familiar faces in here. So you know, Blake, we're going to have you go last because you're you're always 9:18 Jordan, you're up, buddy. 9:19 Sure. This is Jordan, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon. You can find us at breaking bourbon and all the socials. Check out the website breaking bourbon, calm for your latest release calendar and reviews and articles. 9:33 Cheers. Awesome. Fall release seasons coming up. He's going to be a busy man. Very much so but not as busy as this man with his Microsoft paint job. 9:43 Hey, we upgraded they now make a WordPress app for filling in states on a map. So 9:51 they really they do. They've been alive. It's like 9:54 they made it just for you. I know in like a few years ago, I was trying to pay somebody a couple hundred bucks to do. Lo and behold, I found it for free. Even better, because you're in paint on me. So it really, really hurts the release maps. Am I up? Oh, you're up. Okay. I am Blake from bourbon or you can find me usually here every three to four weeks. I'm also bourbon or calm. BOURBO or burbonr.com. All the social medias as well as seal box calm. And we did get cool new seal box hats in. So yeah, I kind of testing out the new logo. And yeah, so maybe I'll give one away by the end or something. Since we're not allowed to do alcohol giveaways on or just we're not on Facebook or Instagram. So 10:47 what? So again right now. 10:50 So check it out. Thanks. 10:52 And I guess that kind of leads us into the first topic tonight is kind of that was the big news. You know, it was actually it was too too roundtables. Beta been three roundtables ago, when we had Craig, one of the admins from the bourbon secondary market, which was the largest Facebook group that was out there had around 50,000 people in it, and they got really kind of the first notice that, hey, things are going to start changing. They tried to change it, they tried to say, okay, we're not going to make this a selling form and try to change the rules. That lasted like three days. And then, about a week and a half ago, there was the the kind of basically the CNN article that went out, broke the news and said, Hey, everything that deals with cigarettes with guns with liquor, everything's gone. And I don't know about you all, but at least in the span of like, 72 hours, like half the groups I belong to, or just disappeared, 11:51 for sure. 11:52 Yeah. And so I guess I kind of work let's talk about the Fallout and kind of what we're seeing in regards of where everybody's going moving to in sort of where everything is, gravitating towards. And since Blake, you have by far probably now one of the largest Facebook groups out there that for bourbon. Is anybody come knock on your door yet? Or is it still kind of like a? I'm still in the clear? 12:17 Yeah, no, we've we've always tried to keep away from that from bourbon or, or with the bourbon or group just because I felt like there were other groups doing it and doing it well. And I there was always that thought in the back of Hey, what if Facebook did decide to care about this stuff. And that's what I think we're seeing now. So we haven't had any issues. But pretty much everyone knows, you know, it's not for buying, selling and trading will still get the occasional post of somebody, you know, they're doing a little fishing. But overall, we keep all that off. So I haven't seen any issues from it. I think it's interesting that, you know, Facebook's deciding to crack down. Buffalo Trace seems to be pretty, pretty outspoken about it as well. You know, but it's just whether you love it or hate it, that's a big part of kind of the enthusiast culture is, you know, even if you weren't buying, selling, or trading, you were still probably in those groups, just watching prices watching what goes on. So that's a big part of the group. And I think we'll get into that a little bit later on some of the MGP stuff. But 13:25 I know that's, that's actual stock markets. 13:29 Sorry, I read that wrong. But no, it is kind of a part of the culture. So it'll be interesting to see where that goes. For me. It's disappointing because you know, whether you had the money or not to buy, it's still cool to see all these old rare bottles in your newsfeed. So 13:48 yeah, I think you're right about that. I think the culture there in just the way that the secondary market have been built around, it is going to take a little bit of a hit. I mean, this is where even people that weren't really into bourbon, they got into it and they see stuff and they become wild and actually kind of almost accelerated the bourbon culture a little bit. 14:05 It's crazy for me why Buffalo Trace hate hates it so much. Because I mean, let's be honest with Pappy Van Winkle really be Pappy Van Winkle if there wasn't a lot of these guys. I mean, it's still be very popular. But how many guys got into it? Because it's like, oh, man, now I could turn around and sell this for profit. And then it just hyped it up even more. And now every article is like, oh, here's the bottle that sells for 20 $300. Well, it wasn't stores, increasing those prices, it was these Facebook groups that were increasing the market perception of it. So 14:41 I think that's going to be interesting too, is even if people didn't trade and they were in those groups, I think they used it to justify buying a lot more bourbon and in their entry into the hobby, quote, unquote, if you want to call it that, I mean, I know a ton of people who have massive collections, they would never sell it. But they always like saying, Oh, my collections worth 20, grand, 30 grand, right? And I'm like, Well, if you're never going to sell it, it's really not worth anything. Right. But I think they were able to justify that because they kept seeing all the all the bottles move on Facebook. So be interesting to see if those folks, you know, go to another platform, find different sites, or if they kind of shrug their shoulders now they go out all right on to the next thing. And I think that's, you know, that's going to be something that's going to take an unexpected, but a bigger see the overall picture of what's going on. 15:30 Sarah, where do you see kind of like how things have shifted, you know, I've seen groups completely changed, like, there's no more buying, selling, there's new, basically, they try to change the name of all the group names. Like that's gonna do it. Like Facebook algorithms are so smart, you know, like, like Blake folded with one or 15:50 Yeah. 15:52 totally missed it, Adam. 15:55 Like, like, Where have you seen people start gravitating towards? 15:58 Oh, I mean, I've been on a lot of those groups, just because I love it reminds me of like collecting and trading baseball cards back in the day. And sometimes you can't always get that bottle that he wants, but you have like, four other bottles that people want. So, you know, I would just kind of use it to trade and stuff. But so I mean, I've seen people flocking to the movie platform. But I do notice that like, it's like probably cut in half. I mean that people might put something up there and there's no comments whatsoever. Whereas on Facebook, you would get instant comments immediately. And it would probably be only up there if it was a good bottle for like five or 10 minutes. 16:37 Even 10 minutes is probably a stretch. I get him a bottle. Yeah, I mean, I'm on the me, we thing now too. And I had to it was just like everything else. I literally had to turn off notifications after like, an hour because like every single new post and I was like, Well, I'm never going to check this now because I go I go to Facebook for my newsfeed, right, I'll go to the Facebook group, I'll go whatever, I'll kind of see what's knew. And that was always one thing that Okay, cool. I'll just see what kind of bottles for sale, but now I gotta go to a whole different thing to do it. So it's, it's going to be tough. You know, I think the I think Sarah kind of you're right there that trying to bring a new crowd over to another platform is, it's always gonna be an uphill battle. And so it's gonna be interesting to kind of see what's going to happen. And at this point, I think people started renaming the groups of things that don't have the word 17:28 bourbon, or liquid or trading or group. 17:34 I think it's, it's interesting to see people's creativity and how to try and get around it. definitely been a week or two. So we'll see if that keeps up. But I do give folks credit, you know, a few different groups that really focus on you know, posting different items. First bourbon, I won't mention what ones, I give them credit for their, for their creativity, that's for sure. 17:55 I think I saw one earlier that said, like, I've got to brown bears for saying that. 18:02 1212 cousins name Weller, 18:06 60 fishes, it'll be go to any of us. It's just like, at some point, you're like, Okay, let's give up on this a little bit. But I mean, there's, I mean, the other thing is, there's there's other platforms, there's me, we, if you really want to do it, there's bottle spot. There's, there's other places that that, you know, you can find stuff, even bottle blue book, you know, we know that people behind their like, nobody will buy your bottles from you. So there's, there's always going to be a market, it's just not going to be as centralized as it once was. Oh, 18:38 yeah. And that's what I was talking to somebody about it, and just, you know, I put this in the chat too, but just the accountability you had, because it was connected to people's Facebook. You know, there weren't a lot of fake accounts. So if something went wrong, you could probably track the guy down and you know, kind of the bourbon mob would be able to take care of a lot of issues that popped up. And you don't have that on the site. Like me, we are bottle spot, which are a little more anonymous. And, you know, you lose a little bit of the trust factor when it goes off of Facebook, which is the disappointing part. Because I mean, you think of how many times how many bottles you see that went or were sold or traded on a daily basis. And how many actual horror stories you heard from people who got scammed or something. It was very small, small percentage. And that's what I think it just opens it up for more of that when you don't have the Facebook accountability. 19:35 Yep. And there was, there was one comment in here. I believe, I can't scroll up and find it now. But there was somebody that said that they didn't really know too much about bourbon until they were introduced into the secondary groups. And that kind of what introduces you to all these other bottles that are out there in the market. That was kind of my first introduction to a lot of this too, is I remember the first time that I was joining this group that I'm not gonna say any names, but when I was into it, I remember seeing like the first bottle of like, will it family state? And I'm like, Oh my god, what is this? Like? How can I get my hands on it? I mean, I went around forever going to try to find it. And I didn't even know the entire time I just had to drive 45 minutes down the road to Barcelona go pick it up. Like it was there was always in the gift shop. So you know, there's there's definitely like there was an educational factor of what this brought to a bourbon consumer. But I think On the flip side, there's also this kind of piece where it says people become a little bit immune to other everyday bottles, because all these see are unicorns and that's all I think are really good. So there is there is a there is a downside to that as well. So, as we kind of like shift focus here, you know, one of the big things that also happened last week was in GPI anybody that is following bourbon is probably listening. This podcast is knowing that it is a huge contract distiller that's out there, and their stock just plummet. This past week, it went from a pretty, pretty good sizable investment, if you're into it about five or six years ago to something where you're like, Okay, probably should think about selling at some point. But whatever it goes, I mean, we're also kind of like in a downturn right now. It maybe if anything, now's a good time to buy. But what happened was is Baron Baron calm, wrote an article and talked about the sales of age whiskey actually fell in the past quarter, at in GPI. And it actually sent the stock down about 26%. Back on Wednesday, July 31. And historically, in GPI has been a big game spirits outfit, like the ALGEO and they decided a long time ago to bet their popularity on building up some aged inventory. In MTP at some points, they were actually getting the the price that they wanted for it nearly three times of their actual cost. But the volumes just weren't there as I'd hoped. And the way this article kind of summed it up was that some customers were having trouble raising the funds to make these large purchases, while others were waiting to see NGP would drop its price. Now, Blake, I'm going to hand this over to you because I know me and you we've seen the MGB priceless before. Do you think this as this is kind of valid, that they really were kind of trying to make it really out of out of the world here that nobody's gonna buy it, if you have the, if you if you don't have the wherewithal to spend that kind of cash? Well, I mean, 22:29 I have no doubt that it's slowed down based on the price list. I mean, looking back, so we bought, it was it was 12 barrels of just under 10 years. So it's nine years. And it was I want to say it was around $3,000 a barrel. Right now the priceless I'm seeing $3,000 a barrel probably gets you like a two year old product. From MVP, maybe, maybe four year old five year old if, if you find the right broker, that kind of stuff. So I have no doubt that people were slowing down on on their buying. And, you know, because you look at the amount of cash that it would take to do because you know, MTP only sells in really big lots, you know, you can't buy five or 10 barrels from MVP, it's got to be, you know, probably a half million dollar buy to buy from them. And so, you know, I just think the appetite for MVP selling probably got a little bit ahead of them and with what people were willing to spend, because then people are doing the math, it's like, all right, how many hundred dollar bottles Can we put on the shelf, because, you know, if we're having to buy at this price, that means our cost is x and we got a retail at at YN. So I imagine there was a slow down. And, you know, who knows? Maybe it is people trying to negotiate or? Yeah, I mean, it is interesting to see that play out on unlike a big scale of a publicly traded company, and, you know, their stock market taking that big of a hit, and one day just from that, but I'm not too shocked at all that there was a little bit of a slow down in there. But overall, I don't think that'll slow down the market, you know, all they have to do is reduce their costs or reduce their price, probably 10 to 15%. And it'll probably pick right back up. And there will still make way more money than they were 510 years ago. So I don't think it's anything but a small bump in the road at this point. 24:36 It Sarah, I'll ask you a question real quick. Because David Jennings of a rare bird one on one just said that in GPS now competing with some good new distillate like will it new riff? Like you kind of agree with that, that the days of you know, thinking that you can just get seven year MVP at a lower price point is is kind of done? 24:56 Yeah, I mean, I mean, we've got like Bardstown bourbon company coming on, I mean, I don't know, that's more for one level up from a consumer or you know, just one dude trying to start a business. But I think more and more competition is coming on the scene. Now, obviously, they're not they're distillate and it isn't as old as MGPS. But if people are willing to wait for the price to come down a little bit, I think I think they should think about that. And like it said, the article said, I think maybe it's talking about it, you know, it's kind of driven people away. So maybe we should just, you know, I thought that was funny. 25:38 shouldn't put all of our secrets out there. 25:41 Thinks what's what's interesting is, if you look at right MGPI stock price, I mean, this really resets, it basically resets all the gains that they made to us. 19, right, because there was a huge, they were building up pretty good in 2018. And then there's a big dip towards the second half of 2018 going into 19, that there's a huge run, and just looks like the markets running figure out what to do with them. Right. I think that a pretty consistent gain up through mid 18. But from here on out, I'm just like in the stock chart, it's it's kind of all over the place, up and down, up and down. Um, so I think the markets trying to figure out what to do with them. I think Sarah's right, there's a lot of new players coming online, right? I don't think they're going to be going anywhere, I think the markets probably trying to see what happens with overseas markets, because that really is the next big area to really put a lot of the source bourbon into. So it's just, it's just buying time and filling it out. But I don't think there's any crisis for them to really worry about per se, if anything, it's probably a good time to buy. 26:36 Thank you. I remember looking at the price list and stuff like that maybe Blake just he's got bigger pockets. And they gave him a better list or something like that. But I remember when I was looking at it, even the stuff that you could get your hands on, like their high right Nashville and stuff like that. It was they only had like, two to three year old age stock like that was really it. Nobody, there was nothing that said, Hey, here's our seven to 10 years stuff like I never saw it. Now, when you want to get into higher ages, they definitely had like corn whiskey, and they had some other stuff, but not just some other regular bourbon mash bill. Blake, did you ever see some of those things of higher ages of just the bourbon stock that they had? That not within the last three years? I haven't. 27:22 And that's what I don't know where it all went? Because obviously they had some 27:29 somebody had some of it. 27:31 But yeah, I haven't seen anything over probably five years. in quite some time. And yeah, so I don't know if they just sold out of it. Or maybe it's the same thing. They're just holding out for that higher price. And you know, I'm it's getting cut a couple times before, you know makes us priceless down to me. So I'm not seeing those prices. But no, it seemed like that all evaporated about two to three years ago and most of the aged in MTP bourbon was gone. So yeah, it is interesting to to kind of see how that plays out. And somebody made another good point in the chat is, you know who they're the distilleries and brands that are buying this. A lot of them were doing it while their own distillery gets ready. You know, somebody like a Traverse City. Let's say new riff there. You know, there's countless others their stuffs ready now? Yes. Smooth Ambler like, so they're no longer relying on it. Now. That's not to say that there's 10 more in line right behind those guys. But you know, eventually you would think it and then you get like a Bardstown bourbon company that's coming on. And they're pumping out a ton of barrels right now castle and keys doing a lot of contract distilling. So so there's a lot of other players in the game. But ultimately, just, you know, how strong is the demand side to pull all that through. 29:06 So but even with all those new players, it's still going to take time for it to come to, you know, to come of age. So it'll be interesting if MGPI actually has more reserved that they're just not showing their hand on and I mean, right now everyone's going right, if you want high age 14, you're going after decal, right? You're going after Tennessee whiskey. And again, there's there's not an unlimited supply of that either. there's a there's a finite amount that everyone can go after so and that dries up either, you know, MGPI has stocks to go for. Or at that point, you're looking at trying to get Kentucky Kentucky distillery to give you some niche stock, but if not, the markets going to be if you have any barrels sitting around, it's gonna be right for the picking. Yeah, 29:44 sir. I'll make you kind of looking at the magic eight ball here because I start thinking about this and I see I see kind of what everything that goes around comes around sort of thing. And so when you look at what happened to the market, where mean if it just not even like go three four years ago, like nobody gave a crap about MZPI everybody used to look at it go in GPI I don't want it and then whatever happened in the past year, six months, whatever it is, like complete one at every single bash it over it. And and now since we have all these new players coming on, yeah, you're going to have this kind of like bulk source market that is Kentucky. It's got that Kentucky name to it. So where do you kind of see like, if anybody's laying down today, and we fast forward five years from now six years from now is MTP is really gonna be able to compete with all these brands are laying down stuff that now says Kentucky on it. 30:40 Right I mean, that's a good question because it's all about marketing. If you think about it, I mean, sure, MTP had knows how to do it makes good juice. But if you want to market your you know, bourbon a Kentucky made product Kentucky bourbon, there's a lot behind that, you know, that MVP can't give you so I think I know it's gonna be interesting necessarily to watch. I think 31:07 that's one thing to think about, you know, think about all the controversy some brands have had because they mislabeled their product because it didn't still didn't Indiana, you know, like the Templeton's and others were kinda adds a little more ambiguity to some source products because of it just says distilled in Kentucky. Who knows where I came from. 31:31 That's interesting. 31:32 Absolutely. And Jordan, we gotta give you a shout out real quick if you just like we come into like a huge batch of Elmer TV because 31:39 it would have been Helmers 100th birthday today. 31:41 Oh, is that what it is? 31:42 Okay, what a turn 100 say so little tribute little shares to Elmer 31:47 Yeah, there we go. Shout out to that. I, I saw him I saw him drinking it. He's got like a case in his background. I was just kind of curious. What was 31:53 this Hello. 31:56 At that if I could get the phone phone call from your local and your 32:00 this is the round tables turning into the secondary market. This is now where it's no 32:06 natural auction. 32:09 Just Just hold up a sign in front of your camera like right now. 32:14 There's a trained auctioneer she's going to tell you 32:20 so so as we kind of like tail off on that last comment talking about like, Where could end up being a few years versus where can talk to me for years, all this other kind of stuff that's coming on the market. You know, there was also something that came out in whiskey advocate this past week that talks about Missouri, is now joining the ranks of Kentucky and Tennessee and actually putting in new legal rules, I guess you could say, to actually have its own silo whiskey, and in this case, bourbon. So according to House Bill 266, that was signed back on Thursday, July 11. Any whiskey labeled as Missouri bourbon must not only meet the federal standards for bourbon, but also must be mashed, fermented, distilled aged and by and the state agent oak barrels manufactured in the state. And beginning in January 1 of 2020. Made with corn exclusively grown in the state. So this law goes into effect on August 28. Now, Sarah, I'll kind of point this one over to you a little bit. Do you see this like as a foreshadowing the effect of we could see other states coming online? I know, we kind of saw this with the Empire right thing before and stuff like that, too. 33:29 I think I mean, right now, every state actually does make a bourbon. Now, Missouri is doing their stricter laws, like kind of like we do, and Tennessee does. I think it's only a good thing to be transparent. And especially they're trying to keep everything within the state. And that on that note helps the agriculture part it helps the they said in the article there was they grow a lot of oak trees so that, you know, their barrels are the best they say, we can decide, agree with that. But they want to make it anything more transparent. I think it's a good thing. 34:07 What about you, Jordan? Kind of get your thoughts on 34:09 this. Oh, this is interesting, right? I think that's a bold move for them to do, mainly because I'm sure I'm sure you can even play. She asked the same question. Countless times a week. Well, if people reach out and say I thought bourbon can only be from Kentucky, right? So I appreciate them trying to trying to, you know, move things forward a little bit. But at the same time, I can't imagine that's going to help anyone by labeling up Missouri, bourbon, because people are just gonna say, Wait a second. No, no, it's not bourbon lessons from Kentucky. Right. So it's great. They want to be state centric. Cool. You know, but no offense, I don't really think that's going to really help anyone. I mean, the good. You know, the good news is local distilleries don't need to choose to label it. Missouri bourbon. But on the flip side, I'm sure eventually there'll be a lot of state grants tied to making Missouri bourbon just making whiskey in the state. 35:00 I mean, you could you could also see this as a as a push for tourism, right? A Missouri trail or whatever it is, like they want to do something that gives a little bit of state pride into into whatever they're doing to 35:14 I think I mean, I think Yeah, exactly. So and I don't think that's a bad thing. Right. Pennsylvania, they recently just launched the the rye rebellion trail, right, the Whiskey Rebellion trail. I mean, so and that's great for Pennsylvania and Scripps in Baltimore a little bit too, but that has a lot of history behind it, like legit history of the whole Whiskey Rebellion, everything else. So it's a little it's a little hard to fathom what type of history they might attach that That being said, if a distillery can come up with some crazy story about the grandfather's recipe, and everything else, I'm sure a steak can come off the story about Wine Trail. 35:49 Yeah, so there was there was a pretty good quote here in the chat. So it came from Blake, first thing he said soon as he started talking about, he said, Oh, I Missouri resident here, I got some thoughts on this. I said, Okay, let's hear it. He goes, the rules do nothing to actually improve the product and the barrel. So I know maybe this is this is this is also just going back to the craft versus everybody else argument. Whereas everything that is coming from the big boys like they've have, they've had time, and they've had stock. And not only that is you've got economies of scale that make it super cheap. So this could be like I said, it might have to be a long play for Missouri to get there. But you know, this is funny when when I talked to Ryan all the time, and somebody says, Oh, you gotta go check out this distillery. It's so awesome. Like, they do this and this, and we're like, yeah, sure, I bet you they ferment some grain of wheat, some corn, and then they probably throw it in a mash tun. And they probably just still throw in a barrel yet, like the process hasn't changed in 20 years. Like we quit giving a shit A long time ago. And so it's it's kind of like, there's there, there's got to be something somewhere where a lot of these states can find that new. I just find find that that angle that is starting to make them. 37:08 Gotta differentiate yourself somehow 37:10 get on the map, somehow just get on the map. I don't know what it is. But maybe this is part of it. I don't know. I mean, Blake, you introduced me to Empire. I like you kind of see this as a move forward for a lot of people in different states. 37:23 Yeah, I mean, but you think how quickly can we burn out on it? You know, we got 50 states that we can everyone can have their own their own bourbon. 37:35 I'm waiting for the Hawaii one to come around. Because I'm going to the barrel pick. Okay. 37:39 I'm heading for that press trip if it comes up? 37:44 Yeah, I mean, it is interesting to see I think it is cool. The Missouri one, I think they've got a little bit with, you know, Cooper edge and everything like that the Empire I, they've done a really great job and making a product. There is some historical aspects best, especially with like, you know, Maryland style rise, Pennsylvania style rise. So it's cool that they designated it brings some more attention to it, and in a little more information, because while we do get a whole lot less of the question, it's still I mean, it popped up for me, like two weeks ago in a comment section of this post I had on seal box. And I was like, Well, you know, bourbon could only may be made in Bourbon County, Kentucky. Like, that's just not right. Like 38:34 that. We're past that. But a lot of 38:35 I mean, the average consumer, a lot of people still think that. Yeah, I go so far as the majority still think about it. I hope 38:43 not the majority, but you're probably right. 38:46 You know, so it is cool. It does kind of give a little more credibility to some of these distilleries. Like Jordan said, I wish there was something that improved the product or 38:57 Yeah, thanks, Jordan. Who said that or no, Clint and Blake, there's another there's another Blake in there. 39:04 Likes always have the most insightful comments. 39:08 But no, I mean, I wish there was something like like a straight days designation estate would do something like that, that says, okay, it's or bottled in bond, you know, something that that has a year state your age statement on it. That really does improve the product where it's cool to say, Yeah, all the the grains, the oak, and everything's from this state, but you know, could still be pretty bad, bad bourbon in those bottles. But it all in all, it's all about marketing. So it gets the name out there more gets more people drinking bourbon. I'm for it. 39:47 I mean, I just think they they took it almost a little few steps too far. I mean, it was literally mash fermented, distilled aged bottled right, Asian oak barrels that were manufactured the state greens grown there. 40:00 Are they gonna do you know, to make it Missouri? You know, I mean, 40:06 well, like I said, I think the part that we're probably ticket, it took it over the edge was like, had to be aged and oak barrels that were manufactured in Missouri, right. Like, there's, we all know that like, 40:16 straight bourbon doesn't Aqua sponsoring that bill? 40:20 Don't talk to trees. OC that Jordan might have something that might be independent state that could have been behind that, right? Because they've got a huge Missouri 40:27 presence. I mean, who really benefits from that, right? So it's going to be it's going to be the barrel manufacturers in Missouri, the people selling trees, Missouri, it's going to be the people growing the grains. It's really meant to benefit the local economy. 40:39 And this is where we get into our hypothesis of things. 40:44 What moves the political? 40:46 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but like I said, I think, you know, Jordan, you made a really good point there that, you know, it really could be ISC behind that, that really says, like, Oh, this should be a part of it. Because, you know, until I really see getting into this, I didn't really know how many Cooper's we even had really here in Kentucky. And so perhaps there are a few more Missouri that we are kind of not shining the light on. But it's definitely a very valid point that you raise. Yeah, when it comes to it. So as we start moving on here, you know, Blake said something in the last segment really talking about well, if they're going to do something like bring it make it be bottle and bond, but sort of age statement, you got to do something that really kind of Willie wants to make the consumer started gravitating towards it. And this is one thing that is sort of relatively recent that was just announced that it's something that we've been all accustomed to, in the past two years now of basically every label out there losing its age statement. And this is because of the popularity of bourbon and just not being able to keep up with stocks. Nobody could forecast this to ever be where it was, however, beam Suntory came out with a press release saying that knob Creek is going UB restoring its nine year age statement on its on its bourbon. So I'll kind of Jordan like, do you really think that all of a sudden they're like hey, we got stocks. Do you love bourbon? How about festivals? course you do. So join bourbon pursuit in Frankfort, Kentucky on August 24. For bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. You will get to taste from over 60 different bourbon spirits, wine and beer vendors plus 20 food vendors all happening with live music. Learn more about bourbon from the master distillers themselves that you've heard on the show and enjoy food from award winning chefs. The $65 ticket price covers everything. Don't wait and get yours at bourbon on the banks.org. You've probably heard of finishing beer using whiskey barrels but Michigan distillery is doing the opposite. They're using beer barrel 43:00 To finish their whiskey, New Holland spirits claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey. The folks at Rock house whiskey club heard that claim and had to visit the banks of Lake Michigan to check it out. It all began when New Holland brewing launched in 97. Their Dragon's milk beer is America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out. In 2005. They apply their expertise from brewing and began distilling a beer barrel finish whiskey began production 2012 and rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get filled with Dragon's milk beer twice, the mature bourbon is finished and those very same barrels. rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rackhouse boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members and over 40 states. Go to rock house whiskey club com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye. Use code pursue for $25 off your first box. 44:03 Jordan like Do you really think that all of a sudden they're like, Hey, we got stocks? It's only been like a year like was this like a like a like a safe face sort of thing was this like, 44:14 is interesting. So we just did a one of our newsletters contained a topic piece on this a few weeks back. So you know you're seeing age statements returned in a number of ways, right? So I think the knob Creek might be a little rare in the fact that it may actually return and may kind of stay the same price for the most part. But what you're seeing as we're noticing is age statements coming back with the price increase or age statements coming back on a limited basis. I'll use limited loose quotes right. So the thing about a heaven Hill took off the six year right it's coming back as a seven year as a higher price point. Right Bazell Hayden last very standard A while back all of a sudden is coming out as a 10 year limited release will see more often. right we're seeing this 1780 more and more. And we're seeing those age statements come back and I'm still waiting for the big one. I know this is just speculation on my part. But I'm still waiting to see Elijah Craig just the standard version come back in more premium looking Bothwell bottles in place that are more premium price point, right, because I can't imagine that heaven hills not thinking about that. Right. But I think we're seeing that it's not the fact that age sucks, you know, appeared out of nowhere. It's a business right and I'm the majority of the bourbon distilleries calculated and play this out really well. Because now people do associate age statements and bottles as being higher, higher quality, more premium, and customers are willing to pay for it. So when those demons do come back, they're excited for right and love it or hate it. It's the reality at least people who are bemoaning the loss of age statements have that option, but it's going to cost a little bit more. I mean, they could have just as easily said hey, we're going to come out with a second 45:47 product line that is nine years at an extra like $15 a bottle and just kept doing there. You know NAS seven right here whatever stuff and just kind of had two variations of knob Creek there. So I guess go ahead Jordan. 46:03 I was gonna say you kind of saw that with a heaven hill with the white label bottled in bond right? I mean, you you had my guess it wasn't bottle and bond the one other one but you had the white label and then you had the aged white label and whatever on talk about a lot. So it's kind of like Well, what's the point of doing the non aged you know, the non HD version? So I think people just if there's two options, people are always going to go for the HTML right? It's it's just economics on that one. 46:26 Yes, sir. I kinda want to get your your kind of take on this. I mean, because we look at the market look at what it is I mean, we had Bernie lovers on the show when right 12 lost it and you know, everybody went ape shit and then you kind of talks about like, you know, this is you know, the bourbon is a bird business not bourbon charity business. And you talked about like, well, would you rather just take it off the shelf completely? Or, you know, just bring it back to whatever it is however there you know, I don't know what beam did to try to sit there and try to find these stocks that did this. But they did it without a price increase. So So kind of talk about your you know, kind of your feelings on this one. 47:08 You know, I think people are tiptoeing around idea of the bourbon bubble and if it's gonna burst or what's going to happen so i think i mean it it's probably a way for them to be you know, more transparent it seemed it seems to be my theme but I mean, it's a it's kind of like a an outreach to their fans to saying hey, you know, maybe we were short on this year but now we were back you know, or it could just be like don't leave us you know, there's so much more on the market we you know, we value you here's your age statement back and I don't know that might be kind of naive thinking but I'm glad they didn't raise the price because I like that 47:53 Yeah, well that's what I mean I think one of the things in the press release was talking about how Fred know said when some he wants to order you know, you're at a bar you want to order a knob Creek you expect it to be nine years now I don't know if that's really what is me it's just that it could just be a blanket statement that was given in sent out of course but that was one part of it. Now one thing that was kind of coming up in the chat was people were saying that knob Creek packs knob Creek pics are the best value in bourbon. Blake I kind of want to get your your ID on that because you know most of them are 10 to 15 years old like is is it really the best value in bourbon you're seeing right now. 48:34 Um, so knob Creek pics for me are a little hit and miss at times I've had some that man I'd almost put them up there with like the Booker's 25th release or something like that and then I've had others it's like wow, this is just like knob Creek off the shelf. So as far as price improve go, I can't think of anyone else that would be better. You're talking about essentially barrel proof 14 years old and 45 $50 a bottle whatever they are, I can't think of one that would be better in my mind. But yeah, I mean all in all, I think the more aged options we have out there the better so that's it's nice to see they brought the the age statement back. I'm actually not going to talk about bakers because I just don't want anyone messing with bakers we're just going to stop dabbling with the design and making payroll and leave it I want the nice Devon Black Wax top sitting on the shelf every time I go in so but no I mean to the original question aside from four roses three to four years ago not Craig's probably barrel pics that is not Greeks probably the best value there is right now. Four barrel pics that 50:02 you know it's funny we look at we look at barrel pics we always talk about barrel pics as being one of the things that you know you don't want to go chase after everything barrel pics is where you want to be. However it seems like this is always one of the ones that are so over saturated in the market and Jordan Did you kind of see that as one of those things that were like there's just so many of them out there like it's hard to just barrel fix knob Creek fix you know it's not one of those things that people go crazy for it's not a seven I say 50:32 that Yeah, I agree and I say that with us having a knob Creek barrel pick out there right now for folks for single girl club right 34 through a partner and it's true people I think people have a lot more readily available knob Creek pics at their fingertips than they then they realized in them they want because most stores will have a knob Creek single barrel out there, but they're pretty easy to get. They may not always be like a 1415 year old but they're pretty they're pretty well established is an easy pick for stores to do. Right and for the most part, it's one of the ones that you just get used to knowing that Yeah, for the most part a few times here I'll be able to go to knob Creek where I'll pick right so the excitement factor I think isn't there as it might be for some of the other barrel pics that people do. I'm sure you guys have seen the same thing with your barrel club pics to that you've done them and Blake the same thing Sarah I'm sure if you have a favorite liquor store that you go into often a little knob Creek barrel pics, they're just one of those things that's not sure if it's oversaturation or so much they're just readily available. Even if it's just one or two, you know, a year or two or three year it's more available than you might see some of the other brands out there that stores are doing similar things for 51:45 it, I'll kind of toss it out to the group too. Because 51:50 I don't think I've ever had a knob Creek single barrel pic that is like blown me away. But I've also like when we've done that I pre barrel pics like you go there or you get the sample shipped to you and your tastes of them. There's not a huge very difference between them like they just seem like they seem very they're all the same as me. I mean, I haven't really found like some that are just like crazy off profile like you have some that are like with Buffalo Trace that are just like you never would expect to this be Buffalo Trace versus some that are very sweet. And you can say that about a lot of different brands out there even new riff being one where you get a bunch of different flavors out of these barrels and stuff like that. I'll kind of toss it out to you all like have you seen like a lot of variants in your in your knob Creek single barrel pics. 52:37 So to me, the beam, kind of that funky beam, pod wet cardboard note always shines through. 52:48 Nothing that's a cell point like that, that Yeah, 52:50 no. Bad. That's why I lead with peanuts. 52:57 But I have had a few that I'm like, wow, this is really good. So you know, I wouldn't say they're all the same. 53:07 But you know you think about other Well, I guess pretty much everyone is using the same Nashville same everything. So beam definitely has a lot more to choose from. So if they're going for a profile, they've got plenty of barrels to pick from to find to put into the single barrel program that are all pretty similar. So but you know, I'll defend them a little bit there and say I've had some that are definitely better than others and some I thought were standouts, but I think if you put really anything beam in a lineup and you knows down the line, you're going to pick that pick that out immediately. So I think that plays a role as well. 53:49 Does anybody else get a little like turned off? Sometimes when they only roll out three barrels for you to 53:55 try travesty? It's a 53:57 Yeah. You're like, come on, I'm better at this like that. That's where you bring your own drill and just start walking. 54:06 Because they love that. Yeah, you if you want to get arrested and never invited back again, that's that's the recipe. 54:16 Alright, so let's go ahead, we'll kind of shift it to maybe one of the last topics for tonight as we start winding this down. But it's, it really plays into really well of that last topic, because, you know, Jim Beam is has done a very, very good job at looking at the market looking at its consumers, and saying, like, hey, let's restore this age statement, we're not gonna raise the price, we're not gonna do anything like that. You know, and there's other brands out there that are handling this in the same exact way. So let's talk about the impact of what brand perception really is. So you've got Buffalo Trace, you know, they stated that they will never raise their prices. You've got heaven Hill who did the exact opposite and raise their prices? I'm kind of curious on on. In Sir, I'll kind of let you kind of go first here like, what do you think is the the brand perception people will have when you have, like, that was an example like that, where somebody is raising prices? somebody saying I'm going to keep them steady? I feel like we're running get into like political debates, like, yeah, like, I'm gonna raise taxes like no, you know, it's, it's kind of like that. So kind of kind of talk about, like, how do you see brands in a certain light when they when they do this sort of thing? 55:35 I'm, I think, at the end of the day, people like what they like, and they're loyal. 55:41 I think I mean, the heaven Hill thing, you know, taking it off the market, and then raising it a year. And putting, you know, raising the price on it. That was a little like, you know, like, come on, you know, I'm brand loyal to you. But at the end of the day, like you guys were saying it's a it's a business. And if people are willing to pay it, then then why not? But I think I still think at the end of day you have your favorite and that's what you're going to go to, if you can find it. 56:11 And I have to kind of correct myself a little bit because makki sick in the chat said, well, BT just raised the prices on OWA. And I was like, Okay, okay, they did do that. Some other kind of lower end brands. Yes. They're I shouldn't say lower end but they're some are more everyday consumer brands. Yes. However, sir, more their premium items. Pretty much thing level field, there there be tax in the package in the world, they're really kind of stay in there for at least as least as far as we know. We'll see when the press release comes out in this fall. 56:40 Yeah, I'd be shocked if they raise those prices more than it'll be up. $10 it'll be what are we at now? They're like, 56:46 9999 Yeah, 56:48 yeah, it'll be up. $10. And, you know, I, it is a It's funny how short our memory is on all this stuff. Because, you know, I feel like we pick on heaven Hill a little bit because they've seemed to have done the most with, you know, Elijah Craig 18. Going away, coming back at $110. More, you know, no, we're not dropping the age statement of Elijah Craig. Oh, there goes the age statement. So we're going to pick on somebody else. So like, Buffalo Trace, they raise OWA prices, higher than well, or 12. There's all this you know, if you look at what the what's going on behind the scenes with a lot of the what these stores have to do to get, you know, Sazerac and Buffalo Trace products in that's to me is almost even worse than some of the other people but everyone has a short memory. Am I going to not buy a bottle of George t stag tomorrow? Because my retailer went in debt buying, you know, weekly vodka so he could get that one bottle? No, I'm gonna buy that bottle. So, you know, it's the whole consumer. Not to say that a lot of these distillers are bulletproof. But there's so many new people coming in, who just don't care or will never know, like, the details of stuff that goes on. I think, you know, the brands and distillers feel that a little bit and they just keep moving forward, they increase profits, they increase expansion, whatever it is. I just want to drink good bourbon. And you know, I can't think of one distillery that's done anything that's like a you know, I will never drink them again because of it. I mean, shoot, I tried Templeton a few months back after swore them off because of all their flavoring and no, we don't flavor and all this stuff. And I was like, as not as bad as I, you know, I was thinking it was terrible, but it's not that bad. So um, yeah, I mean, I think there's just a lot of room for for distilleries to move right now, especially with so many new people coming in. 58:57 I think it's a it's on the flip side, it's a fine line, right. So I appreciate what Buffalo Trace is doing by artificially keeping prices low on some of their products, because you have to remember the world we plan, right? We drink a lot of their spirits. But we'll go back to bourbon most often. But the average consumer you're competing not just for for what they buy in the shelves in the bourbon section. But if you piss them off enough, and they start going to discover other spirits, right? Take a bourbon iOS, and he's really into rum. Or he's really into Armagnac, or he's really into mezcal or anything else. Right? They may not return to the bourbon section anymore. And yeah, you may have actually pissed off that person enough that once they found another spirit at a valuable price, they might just be done with bourbon. So it's that fine line that you have to play of capturing the consumers are entering into the to the bourbon world and are willing to spend money, but also those longtime drinkers who are willing and able to switch spirit categories and don't have the discretionary income to just buy everything everywhere. 1:00:01 I'll buy everything everywhere. 1:00:02 Wow. I mean, we might buy everything everywhere. But you know what I mean? 1:00:06 Is if travel takes the right place, you see the right bottle? Yeah, well, of course. Oh, for sure. 1:00:12 Yeah, go ahead, like whole new market. Because there there was the guys who were just completely rien loyal, where they needed bourbon, they walked in and grabbed a bottle of Maker's Mark, and there was nothing else. And now I think it's a little more people are exploring. So I think brand loyalty that's being built and, you know, kind of the goodwill will mean a lot in the coming years. 1:00:37 I think everybody brings a very valid point to this, because when you look at how brands are handling this, they're all doing it different ways. And I think the one thing that people are the brands have to understand is that this is a long game. If you're if you're trying to go out for the short game, you're only going to succeed in the short game. And if you are trying to make a lasting impression that's going to last for decades, you know, making sure that you know, trying to raise prices trying to do this. Who knows it could backfire. You know, we've talked about on the roundtable before, and I think Blake brought it up that we could just be now experiencing the very beginning of what could be a super super super premium market where there will be a need to have $1,000 bottles of bourbon, like regularly on the shelves. As as we try to compete with scotch and stuff like that. So seeing is how it I don't know. And I look at it from two different angles now that I'm kind of saying and I'm kind of flip flopping on myself. It's kind of like yeah, maybe they should be raising prices. And then the other side of me saying like those bastards, why they're raising prices. But I mean, that's that's that's sort of like the, you know, we're in a very transformative time, I think for bourbon, where we see this massive growth, this massive opportunity. And it's either like, what kind of game you're going to play and in where can you either increase profits a little bit that makes makes you have a little more longevity? versus Where are you just basically taking advantage of the market and saying, I've got a 12 year old NGP bottle, and I'm selling it for $250 a bottle. Yeah. Right. Like that's, that's short term thinking. And so we'll kind of see exactly what how that sort of plays out in the the upcoming upcoming pieces here. But, you know, I think that's going to kind of round out a lot of the questions that we had for the night really looking at exactly the market where it is. I mean, we covered we covered a lot tonight. 1:02:36 knockout topics from there's only four people here. 1:02:41 Say I was like we were bam, bam, bam, bam 1:02:45 GP stock prices, Missouri bourbon knob Creek. I mean, 1:02:51 so it was it was awesome to have everybody on here and even huge thanks to everybody that joined in the chat. I know some people were sitting there saying that, you know, you know, Blake it talks about like, yeah, buy a bunch of boxes, so I can buy that and everybody's like, Hey, 1:03:06 I love I love Wheatley vodka. Like anybody's like this is a safe space. Fred's not here. We could talk about vodka. 1:03:15 We can mention it now that 1:03:17 don't save just remember that. 1:03:21 Absolutely. So as we sort of start closing this out, want to give everybody a chance to say, you know, kind of where they're where they're from, where they blog, everything like that. So Jordan, I'll let you go first. 1:03:31 Yeah, this

The speaking industry is going through huge changes at the moment. And in order to survive and thrive in this new age my guest today believes that you need to disrupt yourself. His name is Tom Sligting (AKA Tom Lightning) and he is a keynote speaker based in Amsterdam and a Professional Member of PSA Holland. In this episode of The Speakers Life we talk about how to add humour to your speeches. Moving from standup comedian to international speaker Does humour travel? Fredrik Haren Tailor-made speeches Visualisation exercises The best version of yourself Seeing your speech as an audio track Using mindmaps to write jokes Zig Ziglar's 7 minute rule for adding humour to speeches Ricky Gervais 'work in progress' shows Why you should think globally as a speaker Speaker stage props Being the speaker that people remember Show don't tell Disrupting yourself SpeakersU   Tools: Whiteboard Book: How To Be A Global Keynote Speaker by Fredrik Haren Speaker Bag: Cameras, Grips, External microphone, Zoom audio recorder https://nextglobalspeaker.com/   Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript Below is a machine-generated transcript and therefore the transcript may contain errors. Hey, there is James Taylor and I'm delighted today to welcome my guest, the Tom Lightning. The speaking industry is going through massive changes at the moment. And if you want to survive and thrive in this new age, my next guest believes that you need to disrupt yourself. His name is Tom lightning. He's a keynote speaker based in Amsterdam, and is also a professional member of PSA Holland. It's my great pleasure to welcome Tom with us today. So welcome, Tom. Thank you very much, James, nice to see you again. Thank you, it's great to have you here. So share with everyone what's happening in your world just now. Well, I, well, everybody, it's summer now. So it's July for if people watch this later, and everybody's outside on the beach or having holidays. And I'm actually 10 or 12 or 15 hours a day you my studio, preparing because I'm so excited about a lot of new stuff. I I developed a lot of new stuff I think about and there is a lot of work to do, actually. And so I'm really into that I'm building your website, I've got my new weekly flocks. You know, I've been to Singapore for a couple of times. And every time you hear you need to to to to get out there. Well, I don't have to tell you if you are out there every hour, I guess. So what I'm building on the whole speaker business perspective. So take it Take us back. I mean, how did you get into this very strange world of, of international speaking? That's very good question. Because international speaking, I haven't been a speaker for the last 25 years. So that's, that's a strange angle to be a professional speaker. And I sometimes I've spoken in England or or important goal. So. But now my mindset is to be a global speaker, a global keynote speaker. And so I see that I see this way that I'm having my ship, and I'm just adjusting my ship, make it bigger, wider, and the range is going to be longer. So it's not that I'm going to change something it's not I'm going to be from a consultant to speaker or a doctor to Speaker, I have been a speaker for the last 25 years. But it is a big difference. If you work in the domestic market in Holland, to do company gigs, or you want to be an international global keynote speaker that is, but I really like to challenge. And that's why I invested a lot in Well, the PSA Holland and the BCI international have been to Antwerp to Paris to Singapore. Tonight, I've got a meeting with a free for international speakers. So I'm really well last two, three years, do as much as possible to see what is that world about? and talk to the leaders who are who are in that market right now. So tell us as you were you were starting to meet this, this transition from being a speaker in Holland primarily for the market there. I'm guessing you're speaking mostly in Dutch, you're speaking there having to make that transition to now speaking internationally. And I'm thinking you're obviously going to speaking more in English there as well. Tell me, you know, as you were, first of all, what what was the key reasons that you decided you want to go international? Cuz I know a lot of speakers who do really well, and they just focus on their home territory, they don't really travel outside? What was it about speaking internationally that, what made you want to do that? And then also, when you did make that decision, what were the first couple of steps that you took in order to start maybe researching or thinking about where you wanted to speaking? Like, for the last 25 years, I am also a stand up comedian. And I do tailor made shows for companies. And I'm always booked as last speaker, because the last 2025 minutes, I just make everybody crazy. And that's why people know me, that's why people booked me. And that's what, that's what I'm good at, because I've got a lot of experience in that area. But I have also seen Well, I've done more than thousand companies show. So I've also seen thousands of keynote speakers. And to be quite honest, I mean, some of them are really good. And you can learn a lot from them. But I also have seen a lot of keynote speakers who were not that good. And then I and that's actually I'm glad, because that's actually why they booked me, they know there will be a speaker who will be having a good story, or a good message, but he will be a little bit low energy or a little bit dull or a little bit, you know, predictive. And that's why they booked me because they said well, we have to end high, we have to end with a lot of energy and positive vibe. So I'm glad not all the keynote speakers have that well, because that's why I made a living last 25 years. But your second question is why the transition? Then I thought, Okay, wait a minute, I'm getting a little bit older, I have seen the whole comedy scene in Holland and Belgium and, and then I thought, Wait a minute, what what if I was on that spot, and I combined all the years of experience and all the CEOs I've talked to the last 25 years or 20 years. That is a lot of content, a lot of information. And if I if I if I embrace that and make it some sort of bro, professionalize it, then I will be that keynote speaker. And that was just a decision I made three years ago. And then actually, the PSA Holland asked me, would you be a member, so I didn't even approach they said, because we don't have something, something someone like you in our group, you know, there are a lot of different speakers. And I think that's the best thing also, in companies, if you have a lot of different people from different angle, to do to be better and to learn from each other. So they didn't had somebody with the background I have with a lot of speeches and the company. So I want you to be silent. And in the beginning, it was a little bit, I just said to Luke, and I thought it was hard that you have to go somewhere and pay for it. You know, I mean, if I open my mouth, I get paid. Now, of course, but you know, normally you know what I mean? If you do the performance, you get paid. But when you in the group of the P say Holland or UK or United States, thank you, we're a group and you have to do it for each other. So it was a mindset thing. And then I said, Okay, I'm going to do it, and I want to learn as much as possible. And I just stood high. And and, and a lot of doors were opening for me when I made that decision was really, really nice. I mean, you'd already obviously built up this, you were very comfortable on stage spoken a lot years, because you had that improv comedy background as well, you were very comfortable, but playing with audiences and the energy of audiences as well. Well, who the speakers are whether any speakers that you saw, who transitioned from being speakers, primarily in their home country, English wasn't their first language, their mother tongue, to actually speaking in English, and really building an international speaking business. That actually, to be quite honest, there were no real examples. For me, the only thing I knew that in the Dutch group where I am in, they're all Dutch. And they're all the first language is Dutch. And I think from the 12 people that I really work with 10 of them also speak in English. And that's the second language. And for me, that was something, you know, to, it's also a mindset thing, I've got to work on it and work on it every day. And I also acknowledge that I also see that I'm when I'm three days in Singapore, or I've been at a mastermind in London, and you talk to three days in English that is getting better and better. So it's, you have to say to yourself, if you're not native English, just go for it. And I know, I make a lot of mistakes. I know there's some time I sent since I'm not that well, but it's all about communication. So if you have the right energy, and you prepare, and you don't care about the mistakes, I think a lot of people will will go for it. And if I say one more thing about that, I mean, Frederick Aaron told me once, because he's easy. He's He's an example for me. And I see all the other flocks he's been named to. But that's, that's normal, because he is. He's a really brilliant guy. And I asked him, because he's from Sweden, and this is not English, too. And he said, Well, it's only approximately 1% of all the English that he's been spoken in the world. It's a native Englishman, to a native Englishman, and the rest of the world is bad English. So he just said, welcome to the Welcome to the club. Okay, you're in the 99%. I mean, the 99% bad English was welcome in the club, you know, it's, you, you see it like that, you know, it's, it's just you have to do it. And some friends of mine said, well, it's terrible, and you shouldn't do it. And it only makes me stronger, to just go out there and, and don't even think about it. But I do think that people from Holland, you do have a, you have an advantage over a lot of maybe other non native countries vision non native English speakers, because I don't know, when it goes back to the homes always have a strong trading country. And so most people I know, from Holland, they speak five languages, multiple languages, very good at languages. So I guess that puts you a little bit of an advantage because you don't just know Dutch, you know, English of your French and German. Yeah, and maybe Flemish, you know, the other other languages as well. So you are in a bit of an advantage there. So you kind of started to launch yourself into the speaking industry, globally. And in this industry industry. I first saw you speak in Singapore, and I've never seen you before. And I didn't know anything about you and you got up on stage. And you were you were really funny. And you were playing with the audience and you're trying different things. And it was it was a great energy. And I just assumed you'd be an international speaker for you know, 20 years or something. So it came as an absolute surprise to me when you said that was like one of the first big speeches international speaker son, yeah, in English. So how did how did that feel? Because not only were you doing an international speech in Singapore in English, absolutely. Speaking to 300 or something professional speakers. So that was a real hard gig. And it was the tailor made show. So it was not my standard keynote. All right. Frederick, Karen asked me because that's why he, that's why I met him. He asked me can you make a real Taylor made show about humor in speeches, and you have half an hour? And that is pretty, you know, that's a challenge. But I have, you know, that's all I've got to do with with mindset. And as a professional speaker, you have to have the right mindset and have an insight how I look at it. I just focused myself, how would I be if I looked at myself? Would I would I like me, I would I like my own speech. And let us for a professional speaker or maybe any profession. That's a wise thing, because then you step out yourself. And you've got to be honest. And you and I see myself working. So two days before the event started, I was sitting in that room. And you know, I see myself walking, I see the power, the energy, the the the be murder, everything I had on on stage. And then you just imagined, do you want to be the normal guy or the regular keynote speaker that they are? Do you want to be outstanding? And you want to even love yourself when it's finished? Well, I mean, the answer should be number two of costs. And that's what you have to focus on. So never focused on what if people don't listen? What if they don't like it? What if I forget my lines, what if it's all I don't, I don't even have one of those in my in my area. In my in my vision. My whole vision is I'm doing the utmost best speech. And, and that is because I've been in a lot of situations that I needed that technique. I've played for four or 5000 people I've played before Julio Iglesias, and people didn't even know that I was on, I flew to Afghanistan, I had the most difficult performances ever. And that's the only way to survive, to see yourself do vision shot you got your yourself and and see the best version of yourself. And that's actually a phrase that I use in my speech right now, but I come up with that one that's real, genuine, the best version of yourself. If you focus on that one, well, the possibility of the outcome that it will be the best version of yourself is much higher here. Then all the all the difficulties you see, and if you see well maybe I cannot do it because if that's the vision, you will you will drop out. I love seeing even great comedians on stage or great speakers you really a very comfortable using humor and and and so the jokes well in what they do. Because I know how much work goes into crafting those things. Everyone outside it looks like wow, this person just naturally funny. And they're obviously love naturally going to get this huge amounts of thinking writing creating material. So for those speakers are watching this just now what what any kind of smooth, simple piece of advice, if they want to add more humor to the speech, if maybe they feel like that you just mentioned it earlier, that kind of speaker that goes up in their stages, it's very good, but maybe a little bit better than boring. And what they can do just to lighten it and add humor to the speeches. Well, if you if you see your speech as it your track, so let's say it's 3030 minutes, and you want people to laugh. If you have if you have audio track of a comedy show, it goes like like this. So why Mr. Yellow, red, yellow, red, yellow, red, yellow, red, that's too much. But if you if you record your speech, and you see only a green, a green area, that you know, wait a minute, there's not a lot of buzz, there's not a lot of, you know, so then you just have to find it. So you look at your speech, you said, Wait a minute, after 10 minutes, I've got this story about my son, there's gotta be something in it, then you just have to have to look for it. Because it doesn't happen just because you asked for it, you have to look for it, it's you have to work for it. But this is a way to look at it. Because people just want humor. And that's, that's, that's a big balloon, you know, that's, that's nothing, you have to grab it. But if you say after nine minutes, because it's called. And then I want about bias or an opening or at the half or then you know exactly where it is. And then you just try to try to find it. And it may not happen the first time. And then you work on it with the comedians do that to why a lot of comedians go to, to open mics. Because when they have a really, really good phrase or a really good one liner, it's you know, it's one out of 10 that they they instantly habit nine out of 10 they work on it and they shape it and they take a word off and they in between and and suddenly it's a totally totally different angle. And there is the best one liner that ever had. That is 123 months work. So when you wouldn't when you're let's say you've got that nine minutes and you think I need to have something I need to lift it I need to add some humor or something to to that that piece. Where do you start? You are you are you think do you use like visual, again, mind maps to can a map map? And in some communities you can a main maps? Or are you just going on long walks and playing with the ideas? Or Where's your inspiration coming from? For me? It's like like you said the mind map? So if I would be creative, never be creative behind a computer screen? Because then it's then it's analog, then it's 12345. and creative process is something that yes, well it's create creates while you're working on it. So if you get a big sheet of paper, I even work on flip over papers, because then you have endless crossing and arrows and red and white and yellow. So in the middle, you just say well, I want to joke about this. You don't even know why what what is all possible is that you're you're because you're a father because you did because that that and then suddenly, something comes out of it. And that can take one or two hours, but can also take two weeks. But that's the time you've got to invest. Yeah, if it's not your profession, if you're not trained to find the humor, it's going to be kind of take longer, go even paper, if you even you also have to have the skill to do it on stage and multiple times. So that's the biggest that's the biggest challenge and be willing to fail and be willing for that to try that thing. And it doesn't work or you don't get i was i was a work in progress show from a comedian recently a British me Ricky Jovi's great, really funny guy. And he was he was doing a whole series of trying at new material, and it's very small little club, and to see what was working. And even as he was because because everyone knew that is this is a work in progress. He would say things like, Okay, well, that was not going to make it Is it because you feel it in the room or like lovely, far too far. And that we actually bumped into him the next day. And then there was one particular line of jokes, which I'm not going to place it because they're so rude. And so out there that it's if you know, Ricky Jabez, you know that you can go out there by action. I said this, I said, I said to him, I said, I really liked what you will do it like that thing there. Were UN there. Yeah. And he said, Oh, no, I think I think I've got something there. But it's not quite, it's not quite there yet. So I could see it in his brain. He was like working through how I could How could develop it, how he could push a little bit further. And that's once again, these are all the skills that comedians use all the time. The things that speakers are trying and need to add into the shows as well. And if you've ever been in frame because when you make up a joke, don't bring it as a as a joke. That's very important. Because if you if you say something like, you know, if you say this as a line in between, and people laugh, it's great. If people don't laugh, you just go on. So it's not a big hustle. I mean, for a comedian, it's like a dun dun dun da bomb, there's got to be laughter because it's you push the one liner into the room, but a lot of laughs into keynote speaking or because people don't expect it because it's a serious talk. And then don't be bring it as like, because of that. No, oh, okay, it was. But if you just say it, and five people are laughing and say, okay, there must be something in it. And then you work on it, change your work next time. 10 people laughing and before you know, you've got it fixed. And then you can bring you this job because you believe in it. But before the job is finished, don't bring it as a job as a professional speaker. Just say yes. Just Just put it out there. I think I think it's exactly here. We said he tried to add him every seven minutes is a dog and seven minutes before adding something in otherwise, it's just it's too much. It can be too much for the audience. If you just said, you're saying you know going into the red you don't get near that level. Like what I said he just looking at speed seven minutes, it's got to be something seven minutes, and then you record it to do it. And it's beautifully, you know, and balanced for him. And for him is seven minutes. Okay, for an hour one is one good laugh, okay. For me, it's like, you know, every two or three minutes, it got to be something interaction, but left. But it doesn't have to be it just happens. So that's also important. I mean, you don't you don't need humor, it's something you you just use to to feel better. And because it's the sort of arrangement you make with the audience, and if they laugh, they love you a little bit more because there are some some empathy for you. And and the chance that they will listen to you even more focused is higher when they have laughed about you or something you sad because they respect you. And that's all in that in that package. Yeah. So and as you're you're making this transition from being a speaker in your own country to being an international speaker. I often think that humor is one of those challenging ones in terms of how to how humor travels. Yeah, I see some. There's actually a great speaker. It's called Tim Gods from America. Really, really funny, funny guy. And his humor is such a it's so International, so humanistic, it would work, whether it wherever we give it in the world doesn't matter, the face of America. And I saw another speaker the other day, Mike Walsh movies, a British British Hong Kong speaker. Yeah. Mike is a futurist. So it's very kind of high tech stuff. But he because he has a little bit of the British thing that's going on there. He uses a type of humor, which is almost like making fun of himself. And kind of downplay because it kind of takes the edge off the futurist part as well. When you've been, you know, either for yourself, when you see those speakers who are using humor that you really admire that are doing internationally, what what are they doing? Well, what those speakers are able to take humor and make it International. So watch any audience is any kind of things, patterns that you've noticed there? Well, the main is a very simple answer, but the most thing is think globally. Because if you say, if you got an opening line, like, you know, at the bus station near my house, no, it's I mean, even if you if you know, living near my house, you don't even know what I'm talking about. And some comedians do that. I mean, I work a lot with comedians from the United States. And they come over to Amsterdam, and I said, You know, I live in the Bronx, and you've got this and that there will be no, you know, and they go totally flat out. But if you say something about relationship, if you say something about your economic system, if you say something about Nike, or or Apple or something, everybody knows that. So you know, so think think globally. I mean, if if they've got phones in India, and they've got cars in Guadalupe, or so, and relationship and hate and love, and and everything between it. So your topic is got to be something that if you are in a bar in Singapore, or a convention in South America, people would have to say, Yes, I know what you're talking about. So that's, that's the most simple answer, globalizing. And one of the things that I think what, regardless of which audience where you're speaking in the world, is using props to do things because it's, it's a visual, it's a visual way of doing now, I think you're fantastic. You obviously love using props. I've seen you speak a couple of times. The last time we were both speaking at an event in Paris together, I think possibly is the only event I've ever spoken at where they had to lock the doors, because there was actual Riot going on outside. But anyway, that's the story. But you you actually put a prop along and and had real fun with us. Yeah, yeah, two props on that one. So tell me about why you use props, why you like using props, any, any things you've learned along the way that other speakers can learn from? Well, the first of all, is we're not making it up, I just do it. I never think what might people think and it's not real keynote thing. And, you know, it's like, if you make it up, just do it. And maybe I've done a lot of things that I stopped after five or 10 times. But now I've got something this crazy, credible sizer and I've got some some trust in it, that is going to be a sort of flagship for me. And there's, there's two two main reasons why I do it is, you know, maybe see whatever. The first one is, because I just make it up. I didn't, I didn't said I hadn't needed to Bro, I had a story about Angry Birds, because that's a crazy company, you know, 70 million customers in three months. And now, after three months almost bankrupt, you know, it is a crazy business model. So if you talk about disruption, they are a great example. And then you think, Well, where's How can I can I, you know, make this example more visible more and more engaged, mobile. And then it said, well, an angry bird is, you know, making stuff. They break stuff. And I want to interfere, I want to ask somebody in the audience, and then you have to say Angry Birds can be a microphone in it and wait a minute, then if you use a catapult, so it's ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, you know, it's just a creative process. I but I never, in a set of comedy, I never have used props and company gigs. I never use props, because you're the last 20 minutes you walk on, and you kill the show, and you go, but now as a keynote speaker, there are no boundaries for me. And maybe it's not normal. Maybe Booker's won't book me because they say well, magnificently, your Come on, it's going to be serious business. But that it gets to will be some Booker's who say, Man, we've never seen something like this. And we needed something totally different and give it a try. So and well, to be quite honest, let's say we've we've met in Paris, the 45 speakers, were there over there. And they're always three or four, you remember, not 4590 35, not even 25. And I've learned that from all the festivals I've played, I've played a lot of theater festivals. And even when I'm a speaker at a big con convention, and there are five or six or seven keynote speakers, and the director and the marketing guide, or 1230 speakers, they only remember you because of something. And I don't say it has to be abrupt, but it can be a beautiful image can be a beautiful sentence, it can be your stage performance, it can be your suit, it can be your interaction, or it can be a problem. And for me, it's a couple of those things I just said, and I know. I mean, I only have this crazy catapult Iser for one or two months. I'm not sure yeah, but you are going to be the guy with the catapult. Yeah, yeah. But you probably should own you should probably get a domain name, catapult. speaker.com. Well, look at it be because it's funny because people are I know number of speakers this which they don't almost used in their domain name, don't use their name. They use what they're kind of known for, like, exactly, Rob older woman is the wingman, your wing man calm. And we get to know them from that as well. But I think the other thing that that does having the visual prop. So now I'm sure everyone's gonna have to go online and see your cat. Please do. The nice thing is certainly that the catapult Iser is it was not a word in Google. catapult Iser, 25 pictures. So you can go find that one. But it's also that thing when people go into the office on the Monday morning, or the net, you know, a few days later, oh, you went to that conference? What, you know, what was it like, okay, and it's, it's what I think Malcolm Gladwell he calls them the n equals the the popcorn or the sweets or the candy or something where you might be at an event for two days. But you you you want to be happy to have the idea of the thoughts that you give to the audience, or the thing or some action or some prop that you put into the mind, which is easy for them when they get in the elevator on a Monday morning with their colleague, going from elevate, you know, grand grand level up to the sixth floor ever floor there on the exit? Oh, yeah, I saw this guy, he did this really funny thing with the such and such. And then it's then it goes from the well Tell me more. And then obviously, when you tell me what what he's actually it was talking about disruption. That was that was really what I'm talking about. And so it's a big flag. Yeah, you put a flag in somebody's head. And and you will, you will just be remembered by that. And that's actually why they and it's a lot of fun. And I was talking about I'm talking about disruption, disruption my audience. So if you if you ain't a big catapult of two meters to an audience. Don't do this, you know. I mean, it's I mean, I didn't even know that when I made it up. But I it's you call it walk the talk. If you talk about disruption, I have to disrupt my own audience. So and that's what I do. And I will do it even more than that will be even more things. Because I'm not thinking, is it possible? Or what would people think? Just do it, you know, I just wrote a beautiful song, a jazz song, and I just want to close off with a jazz number. And song and all the, all the highlights of my keynote about digging deeper and better version of yourself are in the lyrics of that song. And we sing it along and people, well, sort of guilty pleasure thing. They hate singing. But they also if you do within a group, you see the lyrics, they will have to sing along, especially when you've got the microphone, you just push it somebody under his mouth, that's pretty disruptive. So I'm working on a lot of other stuff. Yes, because it's, it works. And for it's also fun, it's creates a lot of energy, it creates a lot of, you know, unique kind of, of keynote. And everybody should do that in her or his way. I mean, if you are a normal scientific speaker, be a normal scientific speaker, but I am this high energy, crazy creative guy on stage. So I have to be that it would be totally stupid. If I would talk for 45 minutes in a technical way, like a lot of blah, blah, blah. That is that that's not me. So you've got to be honest to yourself, that's the only only tip I can give. So you sweeten the medicine a little bit, I guess in terms of this disruption, because disruption could feel like maybe a negative thing that's going on, we're being disrupted, and it feels like something is happening to us. We you flip it around with the audience. And so you're known for his idea about disrupting yourself, you know, we can go as a huge area disruption, but I thought what might be useful to talk about just now, before we start to finish up is obviously your speakers you remember, you and I are working together? And what areas are you seeing the you finding is most disruptive just now in the speaking industry? And how can you trying to disrupt yourself as a speaker in order that you can build an international speaking career? Well, how can I disrupt myself, I think that it's got to do with, with guts. And that's, you know, I created all this content and and, and, and six staff to disrupt yourself and, and the chemical dyes are, and now I just have to go out there and shout of the roof that I do that. And that's exactly what I do. For the last eight weeks, I make days my make those weekly flocks. Actually, I'm a performer, I'm a speaker for 25 years. And the last two months, I only posted in English, because a lot of people from Malaysia, to Hong Kong to to Singapore, but Paris, they react on my on my stuff. And so I focus on the global speaking and I I act like a global speaker. That's that's, I mean, that's what you have to have to do. I mean, you you cannot wait that somebody calls you and asked what situation is, so I have to go out there. And I mean, we are in the mid summer. So that's why I just finished all my website, and I'm finished all my content for my flock for the next two months. So now I am just to catch up with you also, I hope is find some booking agencies who find to see my videos of that's credible ties through CD energy. I've got more than 45 testimonials of people, you've seen my show. And I mean, if you if I ever feel bad, I never feel that I've ever feel bad. I'm going to look those testimonials because then you see 45 loving reactions of people who like you were surprised were blown away. So that's also something you have to do. And last time in Paris, I said to two or three speakers, when they were finished. I mean, I mean, you're sitting here get asked testimonials. No, no, no, no. And I was asked, you've got to do it. And they they really think me with two hands after that. Because you have to go over that rich is stupid. You go to somebody, here's my iPhone, what do you think of me? What do you think of me? I mean, but you have to do it. It's so much worth and I mean, you need that, especially when people are going to look you up. You need some testimonials. I mean, I can make beautiful websites. But I could make a website have a bakery tomorrow, but I can bake bread. It's funny, you know that there is a us talk about the bridge bridging from someone, you're getting a testimony from the one I the one I've always used in the past is if I'm lucky enough that I'll have someone with me. And what if someone comes up with you, when you come offstage? invariably, people come up to you, and they want to talk to you. And I love that thing you mentioned there, or this thing really means a lot to me there or I'm going to try this. And and they'll say it to me. I said, That's fantastic. Would you mind saying that on camera just now. And then I just I basically just cost me just as a as the camera. And I we you know, you get a lot of those really, really, really quickly as well. Absolutely. So you know, you're you know, I love working with speakers like you as well, because, you know, every speaker is coming from a different place. And I think where someone like you is you're like, like a, you know, a great car, you've got that, you know, great engine, the body work great. All the technologies really, really there as well. And my job then is to provide that field. It's to provide that jet fuel in there. And you know, don't directing a little bit as well, because you have so many the component pieces. Yes. And now not every speakers have come to this party. It's funny you say this? I thought about it, if you would ask this question for how do you how do you feel this this afternoon because you know, speakers lose a lot of metaphors. I would have said I feel a little bit like a sort of Elon Musk, creating this Tesla. And everybody loves it, and everybody likes it. But you know, they have to be sold. Me. So that's exactly now you use this is metaphor. You are like this beautiful car, with engine with everything in it. And it's it's there behind a window. And everybody's Oh, man, look, it's great. I would like to ask one. Well, you know, there's got to be somebody you said, Well, he's out there, you know, you can drive from actually. So to be close to God, that's a great metaphor. You guys actually had that before to close off? Yeah, you definitely you definitely want to be in the Tesla as opposed to what was the name of the car they used in Back to the Future I adore. DeLorean a DeLorean Loria actually made in Northern Ireland, I think you were made those cars. I know what really great, interesting cars, but they're just like, it just did what Tesla, you know, it's just, they're really well made. They're well constructed. The technology is great. And it's just giving them the fuel. So So I mentioned to your speakers, your speakers, you members, well, what what, what things have you been finding, you know, being a speakers, you remember what you valued about your membership? Well, you know, I'm always honest. And the point is, I see speaker speakers, you as a big database. And what I mean by that is that you've got to do 95% of the work you've got to do by yourself. So if you really see speaker us as a coach, that is sort of you know, I will will take you along and that is not speakers you. So actually, I've been a member for one I've years and maybe three weeks ago, I opened the website, and I saw some interesting stuff that I needed. But that's okay. I say now into the mirror myself here. That's my fault. Because I could do that a year ago. But nobody taught me. And you don't have to tell tell me, maybe you could that's okay. But it's, you know, it's. So my point is, there is a lot of information, and I just downloaded the PDF what to do to go out there and that there are some interesting things. But it's not that you are going to mail me like Tom, I didn't hear something from you last month. And I thought we agreed this or that. So speaking you is a sort of that is a sort of train and but you've got to be on the on the platform, and you've got to step into the train. Yeah. And then everything is their beverage, food content, everything is there. But you you've got to have the initiative SS speaker, I think and I think, like you said, like the members they get most from it is those those who are they are self self motivated, in terms of doing the things and they can going line is it's funny, you know, different speakers will, will get feedback at different times some, it's almost every day, they're sending in questions, because they're working really intensely on something. And other times, I'll go for a couple of weeks or even a couple of months, because they're they're on the road speaking, they're actually out there doing the thing that the know they should be doing. And they come back as Oh, I've tried this, but this thing isn't working. And now I want to move into this new territory. And now think I'm about I'm on the road all the time. And I need to add some back end revenue streams, because I want to be more critical of the kind of gigs I do as well. So that's another level that you go to with them. So I'm good. I'm glad you're finding new things all the time as well. And I let's go to some other tools. What other tools or apps do you find very useful for yourself as a speaker tools or apps? Well, I, I don't use a lot of tools or apps, because I think it's a it's a pretty much a mind thing, you have to have everything in your head. And I've got this, this this little beautiful board over here and everything when I've got an idea I just write it on. And sometimes I look at it, and I just take something out of it and kind of work on it. Because that's also what happens in the creative process. You, you you, you have this and this and that. But you have to focus on one area, make it make it good, and then go to the booth, put it aside. And then you can focus on another area, like website or content or customers or opportunities or whatever. If you do it all at the same time flocks and social media, then it's going to be chaos. So I just have this this big board over here with a lot of words on it, I guess. Take one word one. Topic one pointed, I have to have to do. And I'm just work on it till it's done, actually. So one word, finish finish website. That's that's where mean two words. But that can be two weeks work. Yeah, a bit. But it's good to know that you're capturing those. A lot of people, I need to do this for them. They never capture it. And it never gets done. Because there's not it's not getting measured in any way. And what about a book, if there was one book you would recommend to speakers? It could be on speaking or could be on humor or on business description. What would that book be? I mean, I'm actually writing reading it down for the second time. And I think some other speakers said it to that it's being a global speaker of Frederick Heron. I mean, that is a sort of very simple, you know, it's like, yeah, sure, of course, yeah. I knew that are out there, don't do this. But you know, it's still it is something you know, if, like a small sentence, if you want to be a global speaker focus on global customers. That's one sensor said, but that's really powerful. You said in three minutes ago, sometimes you are in a sort of area of clients of schools, or or, you know, I mean, you won't be a global speaker, if you perform for schools. That's my opinion. So if you use that sentence, look for global companies, if you want to be global speaker that is very powerful. And that's only one sentence out of the book. So, I mean, that is a sort of, I mean, it's not a Bible, it's just a sort of mini hand pocket book that you have to reach. And everybody's got something different out of it. Yeah, I guess what because where you're based as well, there's a lot a lot of global companies that have their headquarters in Amsterdam or New York and Brussels and because to you as well, and many of them have been your clients over the years so then it's about using that relationship to be able to say you know, or go to Malaysia you know, as anyone I can speak you're in your Malaysia office, and to build those relationships. What about what's in your your speaker bag? You obviously have your capitalized? I don't know. How do you say it again, cap? Get appetizer has to bow ties and your capital ties a good word. But what else are you carrying with you to your speaking gigs? keras I always try to film my shows. And I've got new a bag with five cameras. Five cameras. Well, yeah. It's one 4k cameras. I've got one expensive camera. And actually, I bought four cameras secondhand. And maybe that's also good tip today's I guess I just had a look. What were the best cameras eight years ago. So if you would go to you, Japan eight years ago, that's not that that's that long ago. And every Sony is something they would say this is our flagship, you know, the best camera. And they are out there the market now for 2530 euros for 2530 pounds, because it's seven or eight years old. And people want the newest camera 4k. But actually, those cameras are pretty good. They have three CCD sensors in it so they can with different lights, they are really good. And I've got just 16 gigabyte memory card in it. And even if you lose one of somebody steals one, okay, whatever, you know, it's 30 euros, and I'm always my 4k, big Sony camera, I put with the technician forward for the big angle. And you can zoom in because nobody uses 4k. So you can do. But the other four cameras, you just put bomb bomb bomb bombs. One one from the back is always really nice, because then you see the audience. And then you can make a sort of semi professional editing instead of one camera. Because one camera is never professional. That's Yes, that's a nice footage. But it's never a movie. It's never too. You can never engage with one point of view. So these cameras that you're getting, are they like, former camcorder style cameras, or are they regular? Like, I guess you can call camcorder style. Yeah, Panasonic, but it's a three CCD, and they are 25 euros now. Second hand, but they had brilliant food. It's because those cameras were $900, seven years ago $900. I actually have one of those cameras. And I think I bought it secondhand. It was about $200 I got in Canada. And I feel I'm pretty much all of my first lot of courses for one of my other businesses on that. And the other day, I walked out how much money I'd made. And it was insane. The ROI of this one simple, Carol, I just put up on a tripod, the courses under there. So as you see it doesn't have to be overly technical. You have your cameras. I mean, did you have your tripods for the right part? Or? I bought some, some, some cloth. Yeah. with with with a with a mountain it? You know, they they really they because the tripod is always a big hustle. You know, it's like a big thing. Yeah, but if you've got a clot No, I have it right now. But it's something like like this. And there's a claw and you can just screw it somebody or somewhere like this and put it on. camera ready? Yeah, no, it's that really works well, because then I mean, it's not much based in my in my suitcase, also because it's a small clock. And you can there's always a pipe or or something that you can just screw it on. And you get four or five cameras, different angles, and you just, you know one hour that you can film 90 minutes with a full battery and a 60 gigabyte memory card. And you have the cameras as a visual. So what about the sound? Well, you doing to record the sound when you speaking? Well, if I've got this on my 4k camera, I've got an external microphone. And so that actually works really well. And if I if it's a real nice performance, I've got this zoom or or I can take it it's an external audio record system. Yeah, you just go to the technician. And you say I've got an XLR here. Do you have an output and Kudo? Of course, they always work along and you just put it there and you can you can put it in six hours before that you can put it on record, because you know that audio is not that much data. So even if I'm at four o'clock in the afternoon, I install it at 12 o'clock, I put it record and even if there were some really good key speakers, keynote speakers before you have you've got one on tape, you can listen tell it but no telling you. I'm also guessing that many of the speakers are speaking the same events for you. They might be coming up you afterwards see any chance I could get that footage like that? Yes. I just sent a big movie to Bob OE and and Lloyd Luna is a 30 minute movie with four cameras, I we transfer to Lloyd Luna, he was really happy with that. Fantastic. So I won't even have questions we finish up here. Imagine you woke up tomorrow morning. And you had to start from scratch. So no one knew who you were, you'd never been booked, you don't have any contacts anymore. You have to completely restart. What would you do? How would you restart your speaking business? research? I mean, you I mean, Fred Waring always says that you need to speak at least 100. People to to to to get your content. And actually, you know, I my content is actually like i said i did more than thousand company shows. And that is my, my big bucket of information. I talked to hundreds of people for two or three hours before I do a gig. And then you hear a lot of inside information. Sometimes you cannot even share this information about fusions or or or people who are getting fired, whatever. But then you also hear why and what we when we talk about disruption. Family, you know, little bit what is going on in this company and why is this division is doing well. And this division is doing so well. So that's all the insights I have. And the last couple of years I just started to go five years ago, I didn't even know I needed that information. But now I sort of remember all those kinds of conversations. And I make notes, of course. And when I look at those notes, I see a sort of pattern. And that's what I can use. When I talk about disrupt yourself. I know what it is when you're in that room. I know what it is to to work for a company and not everything goes well. And they ask a live too much. And so that's my area of research. But if I were to start over again, you meet your bucket of content, not from the internet, not not because you see a TEDx. But but it's got to be personal. It's got to be from you. Having those conversations, that's great, great advice. And if people want to reach out to you maybe to recommend you for a speaking gig or to connect with you to learn more about what you're doing, where's the best place to go and do that? Well, I've got this website next global speaker calm and it's working right now. It's I hope this afternoon it will be ready. Please have a look. Next Level speaker calm and of course LinkedIn. Tom slick think slash Tom lightning. I think if you google Tom lightning, I will be there because when I do SEO, I always put my names on every picture that I put on my website, whatever. So I mean, if you do a little bit of research, you will you would have, you will have to find Fantastic. Well, Tom, thank you so much for coming on today, sharing all about all the incredible stuff you've been doing how you been building your speaking career is great to have you as a speaker, as you member as well. It's always a delight working with you and seeing your speaking career go from strength to strength, and hopefully we'll be sharing a stage again together in the near future. Maybe you know, maybe if you're going there, Maybe yes, maybe yes. I'm telling you that too. So I mean, there's this it's a cool loud read right now. So we'll just we'll see you in the maybe anyway, February. You heard it here first. So you may see us in Namibia. Don, thank you so much. Take care. Thank you very much YouTube. How would you like to get paid to travel the world to share your message and expertise? How did it feel to get paid 5000 10,000 $25,000 to travel first class and stay in five star hotels in exotic locations. What I've just described is the lifestyle of international keynote speakers. And you can join me and over 100 of the world's best keynote speakers, and speaker trainers as they reveal their secrets to becoming a better speaker and getting booked to travel the world as a professional keynote speaker and Bestival. As it's an online summit You don't even have to leave home plus it's not going to cost you a single dollar euro pound ruble peso or yen. If you sign up for the free pass at International Speakers Summit calm you're going to receive access to never seen before video interviews over 40 of the world's best keynote speakers. In addition to this, you'll get access to archived interviews from some of last year's summit guests. So in total, you'll be able to watch in depth interviews with over 100 incredible speakers and speaker trainers. You'll have to find a theme for your keynote presentation how to craft your talk how to get booked as a speaker, how much to charge and ways to get paid to speak on stages all over the world. So what are you waiting for? Head over to http://internationalspeakerssummit.com/ now

If you're a fan of good bourbon, then you're likely a fan of good food too. Today's guest is the intersection of those two, combining a culinary background with his love for the south and, of course, bourbon. You may know Chef Newman Miller from his appearance on Top Chef season 16. He's also the Executive Chef and Owner of Star Hill Provisions at Maker's Mark and the Harrison Smith House in Bardstown. We talk about his culinary background, where he played a part in the creation of the McDonald's McGriddle and behind the scenes at Top Chef. His deep dive into bourbon was influenced by Drew Kulsveen of Willett. So if you're a wannabe chef or if you're an occasional TV dinner kind of person, this episode is going to have something for you. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits blends and bottles at cask strength, just as nature intended. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Aged & Ore is running a special promotion on their new Travel Decanter. Get yours today at PursuitTravelDecanter.com. Receive $25 off your first order at Rackhouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about 4th of July. What was Padma from Top Chef like in real life? What was it like when you heard about being on Top Chef? Why do you think they chose Kentucky for Top Chef? What did the chefs think of being in smaller towns? Was it challenging to cook for everyone? What's a banana croquet? How cool was it to have the chefs create versions of your dishes? How hard is it to judge fellow chefs?  Tell us about your relationship with Rob Samuels. Was there a pep talk before the show? Were you relieved once it was over? How did you get into food? Did you approach Maker's about making food there? Will some of the main food distributors come down to Maker's? What are your biggest challenges? How hard was it to convince the locals to try higher end food? Talk about meeting Drew Kulsveen and how you got into the bourbon community. Where did your passion for bourbon come from? Besides Maker's, do you have a special bourbon that you love? Tell us about your connection to the McGriddle. Where does bourbon and food intersect for you? Talk about Star Hill Provisions. How do you see the future unfolding for the bourbon/tourism industry in Bardstown/Kentucky? Why did you name the restaurant Harrison/Smith House? 0:00 But we could also say that we're recording because you can talk about a chef schedule like it's never going to happen like this just 0:06 yeah, stars align, you know? Yes. Say it like we gave him days and he's like tomorrow? 0:27 Hey, everyone, this is Episode 208 of bourbon pursuit. And we've got a lot of news to go through in the first one is that there is a huge news break. The US Supreme Court in a 72 decision has struck down a two year residency requirement for anyone seeking an initial license to operate a liquor store in Tennessee. Now, why is that important? Well, because you might have remembered back on bourbon Community Roundtable number 29. We discussed this very topic, its total wine versus the state of Tennessee. And it has a lot of implications that really wrapped up inside here because the Commerce Clause which is a part of the United States Constitution, is wrapped up in here. This means it could potentially open up interstate commerce and shipping across all state lines for bourbon. are we paying really close attention to this one because it's a huge win for consumers. And we'll see really what effects are going to happen in the months to come. The Kentucky bourbon trail craft tour is now expanding. With more distilleries, a new look and an upgraded finishing prize. The expanded craft tour will break down into four different regions northern Central, Western, and the Bluegrass. This will help guests map out their distiller excursions to all corners of the Commonwealth. Adam Johnson, Senior Director of the Kentucky bourbon trail experiences, who was on the podcast way back on episode eight talked about the bourbon trail then. And he's saying that each region will have streamlined itineraries and suggestion stops, with visitors earning a collectible challenge coin. After completing each territory. Fans who tour all 22 stops will earn a free customized barrel stage to display their coins. This showpiece also comes with an official Kentucky bourbon trail tasting glass and you can get the craft tour passport. It has been redesigned as a new souvenir guidebook with nearly 70 pages of distillery information cocktail recipes suggested travel routes, maps, events, and more. Those can be purchased at participating distilleries for $3. With the proceeds going to further the Katie as efforts to craft a better drinking culture. With select social responsibility and environmental sustainable partners. You can read all about the trail in which the slaves are a part of it. At ky bourbon trail.com. We're starting to roll out more barrels into our private bail program from major distilleries. We recently sold out of our larger Craig, Buffalo Trace and to four roses barrels in a matter of just a few hours. And we currently have our knob Creek rye in Maker's Mark 46 private selections up for sale in our Patreon community with not one not two but three Russell's reserve barrels to shortly follow here in the next two months. But the big news is to announce that we are headed back to heaven Hill. And we're going there in August to select not one but two, Elijah Craig barrels, we're going to have eight barrels rolled out for us to select from. And well, I kind of liked that really wasn't the big news. The big news is that we've also been allocated one bourbon and one ride barrel from that small little distillery. That's next door to heaven Hill. Yeah, you might have guessed it, it's will it this will be happening in August as well. We're excited, super excited to be able to bring not only the just these barrels to these private barrel programs, where we get to taste and try these unique expressions. But it's more about bringing these experiences to our Patreon community. So if you're a supporter of us, make sure that you can go and you get yourself signed up. And if you want to know more about it, you can go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And if you support the podcast at over $10 more per month, you can get yourself entered to be a part of this distillery excursion as well. Just look for the post and get yourself entered. And thanks again to our podcast partner, Kagan bottle out of the Southern California area for making all of this possible. You can get all kinds of bourbon shipped to your door at keg the letter in bottle.com. Now for today's show, if you're a fan of good bourbon, then you're likely a fan of good food too. Today's guest is an intersection of those two, combining a culinary background with his love for the south and of course, bourbon. You may know chef Newman Miller from his appearance on Top Chef season 16. He's also the executive chef and owner of star Hill provisions at Maker's Mark in the Harrison Smith house in Bardstown. We talked about his culinary background, where he was a part of the team who created the McDonalds MIT griddle. And these walls talks about being behind the scenes at top shelf than some of this stuff he got to know through the process. We then start talking about his introduction to bourbon and how he befriended drew Cole's Nina Willett to start really trying some amazing whiskey. And how at the end of the day that really led him to running his own restaurant with inside of the Maker's Mark distillery. So if you're a wannabe chef or if you're an occasional TV dinner kind of person, this episode is going to have something for you. Oddly enough, many people still don't know what a podcast is. So if you've got a friend or a relative that's just now getting into bourbon, show them how to subscribe to a podcast and they will know every time a new episode is dropped. Thanks for being our boots on the ground and spreading the good word of bourbon. Up next, we've got Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon. And then we've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 5:48 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon, we blend and bottle a cast drink, just as nature intended. lift your spirits with barrell bourbon. 5:57 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. Happy Birthday American. Its Independence Day. And this week we celebrate our country's rich heritage in great history. bourbon is at the forefront of this country's history. From the moment that we are a new country, George Washington and Alexander Hamilton decide to tax whiskey distillers and whiskey distillers and appreciate that very much so they tarred and feathered the whiskey tax man, this time would be known as the Whiskey Rebellion. And it was the first time that the federal government had actually deployed federal troops against its own people. Whiskey would find itself in the political circles for years to come from the bottle and Bond Act of 1897 to the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 and from President Taff giving bourbon its first definition and definitions for whiskies to the congressional declaration of 1964. The made bourbon a unique product the United States to President Obama and McConnell, having discussions that would bring bourbon into the fold to President Trump giving all kinds of tariffs all over the world that would lead to retaliatory tariffs from other countries such as Canada, Europe, China, etc, etc. So this holiday, don't drink a beer. For God's sakes. Don't let anyone drink vodka. really celebrate America, go to your store, buy a nice bottle of bourbon, pour yourself a couple fingers, and sip. After all, it's the American way. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for about the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred manic that's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 7:51 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Ryan the original duo here doing a kind of another spin on bourbon. You know, we, you know, we talked about this before, and we were actually talking to the chef earlier before we actually started recording. And there is a good heavy instance of if you're drinking good, you're also eating good. And we looked at this and said, You know, there's an idea we can start bringing some culinary aspects into it. And our guest today is not only this very well versed in the culinary side, but also he's got a rich history with bourbon being even from you know, the Bardstown area and even in Louisville. So it's gonna be fun. Interesting, just to be able to talk about that, too. 8:34 Yeah, for sure. You food. Um, that's one thing I'm passionate and loved, as Kenny may know, in my gut, sometimes shows he's like, 8:43 he's a walking yelled, yeah. 8:44 But our guest today, so as everyone knows, I'm from bars, town, blah, blah. But one thing missing from the bourbon scene, the bourbon trail was like hospitality, good food, good experiences down in Bardstown and kind of go along with and our guest today kind of saw that and filled that need. So I'm really excited to see like, how he got involved in that area, because it's something that was needed. And he's done a great job at it. So let's dive into it. Yeah, they didn't know it's also good, because we've had a chance to actually talked to our guests today, multiple occasions throughout the past few years. And it just you whiskey 9:23 pigs, yeah, 9:24 a few different events like that. A few different dinners at at his places as well. And, you know, now the stars just aligned and we were able to sort of make this happen. And we'll get into why we actually would record because apparently, the schedule of a chef is pretty hectic, so we'll get into that too. So to date on the show, we actually had his haircut today. 9:47 We can squeeze and his haircut having to be right by it all worked out. 9:52 Yeah. So today on the show, we have chef Newman Miller he was featured on episode two of the most recent season of Top Chef, he is the chef owner and Star Hill provisions that she can be found at Maker's Mark. He is also the executive chef and owner at the Harrison Smith house in Bardstown. He's been recognized by the James Beard Foundation, and now he's a celebrity podcaster making his way up. 10:14 who cares about Padma? Yeah, 10:16 well, you know what the show is one thing, but that was another. 10:20 That was so I want you to be honest. I had this towards the end, but might as well bring it out since we're talking about it. How's Padma in life? real life? I gotta be honest. 10:29 I think that the way she acted towards everybody that I saw the way she was towards me, it raised my level of opinion of her tremendously. Obviously, she's beautiful, I think in person, maybe more. So. You know, my wife would agree. I made sure you know, Rachel was on site too. But she was just so kind. Yeah, everybody that was on the show was really kind. I mean, Tom Colicchio. They tell him he had another hour to wait. He get mad I'd put them in the boat and we ride up to the lake, you know, and sort of talk about the future of makers and what we had going on there. He told me some crazy stories about grammar, she Tavern and it was like, we'd known each other and we have met a day ago. So Padma was great with the whole group, they they found a way to sort of surprised I think you watch TV that much. I mean, you just don't think he might have seen time of day, but it was great. 11:24 Oh, yeah. Very cool. Not probably jumped your schedule. No, 11:26 I honestly 11:28 have questions. No. I mean, that's top of mind. Right. I 11:31 was gonna wonder it as a common question you get from the top chef is so let's 11:35 talk about when you're got the news, hey, top chefs come into makers and they're like, hey, you're going to be involved? How what what was going through your head, 11:44 you know, it was amazing. The way it actually happened was way back when they were doing the the scouting trip, for Top Chef, they were trying to pitch Kentucky as the state to come to and it was down to awesome. One other state I started know who it was. And I was going on vacation. And Seth Thompson reached out to me and I didn't respond. And no offense. It was just I was going on vacation. The next day was the first one in four years with my family. We had to go. And then Rob Samuels called me and I and I answered and he mentioned something about a group coming to Kentucky and then I think it was Christian brands can we ended up talking to the director of tourism, and they you know, they just let me know they're coming to town and could I do it. So I drove my family to Florida. I flew back, I cook for 12 people, I went to bed I flew back, I was on the beach the next morning 11am wide. So that was that was the start of it. And then it took about eight months before we found out whether that paid off or not. And so yeah, we we had a little bit of an investment in it and at that, but I mean, I can't think of anything that we'd rather invest in. You know, this is why we came back to country lucky was to try to show off where I'm from my wife's from Southern Indiana. So close enough. But you know, I wanted to show off where I'm from and that there is hospitality that there is culture I mean, I think you know, food and drink don't always get talked about in the culture section of things but it is and Top Chef just Yeah, it's a big spotlight. 13:22 Yeah, so what were some of the reason that I guess they chose Kentucky as to be featured on this season as opposed to other places 13:28 I think up and coming has to be part of it. I think that they really they're just you know there's more people that have got the bug they go you know sometimes they go away they see what's in other places they realize what they kind of are missing from back home. I think Kentucky's, you know, producing a lot of good artists and I think that our farms they had to look at our farmers and our agriculture and just say wow, this is a this is a really dynamic state when it comes to what grows here what you know there's a lot I mean, cities are what you know, everybody thinks about Lexington the mobile but I think this season is really getting outside of the cities a lot and that's the best part because just showing like from end to end of the state there's a lot of different regions and a lot of little niche products that even Kentucky's don't know about but like I think are generally proud of so what I want to know like 14:24 because you drive the law right Oh, you know what, I wonder what these chefs you know had been to two small towns or anywhere in Kentucky what were they saying? Like? Like Where the hell are we? I mean like 14:34 what is it going on here? What will 14:36 kind of the feedback because if you watch this show, you know that they actually had to go to Colorado and then drive all the way back to Whole Foods and Louisville 14:44 didn't drive know Whole Foods and Loreto working on it. Yeah, we we do have the IGA though. That's right little shop and you know what, it's a pre the responses the same from almost everybody that comes down there the show the tourists, the sort of, it's this white knuckle look. And they're sure that they just came down the loudest, you know, little back road they've ever been to. We asked them how they get here and they actually came down the proper way. The chef's I think were brought in the back way. So you all know there's more than one way to get into Maker's Mark. And they were they were a little rattled and 15:22 a little shady one line bridges. 15:25 It's one is lame. Yeah. There's slop trucks coming the other way. Yeah, I mean, that's what the tourist I think that's really what gets you is if you get a slop truck coming out here not like that's when I believe that you had a hard time getting. Otherwise it's just another road. You know, I grew up in Washington County. So sure, I was just that was how we used to drive. But now the chefs were, they were very generous. I think with it. I think that they're just excited. It's It's such a mental task to be on that show, because so little of it is really about who's the best cook. Right. It's who's the best cook in today's situation. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's a it's a mind bender to think about the way they sort of put these things together. They're not tricking anybody. But it's not just purely 16:16 based on how you can handle the situation. Yeah, 16:18 exactly. So you know, the ride down as part of that, you know, you get carsick? You're gonna have a hard time. 16:24 Yeah. And you had a challenge to because you had to cook for all of them before. So talk about that, and how challenging that's what I was really. 16:32 Like, because you've got a lot of people there. You've got national spotlight, if you're nervous during this whole time to like God, like this is a lot of pressure. 16:40 Yeah, it's not the bourbon pursuit podcast. 16:44 From You know what, though, I'll be perfectly honest, I think about in the exact same way, every everything I do. And it sounds kind of cheesy, but it's a hard way to go about it. It all means the same. And so Coco, for those chefs meant a lot. But those dinners we do on Saturday nights, it means that much. And so to me, that part was okay. That volume was unreal, because we also did the catering for the team that was filming the show. So our team is about for the kitchen. makers at the time was four. And we were catering for the hundred and 50 people that they brought on site. The restaurant was actually open for normal service. And then we did that dinner that you saw, and it was 14 dishes for 14 people. And I think that just from volume, it was the most taxing one of the most taxing things we've ever done. But again, it was the coolest to I mean, it was just so great that people really wanted to know more about things like frog legs. Yeah, you know, why are there frog legs and then you go, Well, there might be a lot of frog legs here because we have more cattle than anybody east of the Mississippi State of Kentucky does not have cattle. Yeah, yeah, with the Laurino producing state. And so to have cattle eating those little ponds so they can drink and stay cool. And frogs do really well around lots of little ponds. So you end up growing up going frog. And and so it's just these sort of cultural things that may or may not make sense to people that aren't from here, but I love you know, banana croquette. I gotta show them Danna croquette off 18:27 as long as it's all good. I was like, oh my man. That's all I have. Thanks. Get my grandma still makes you know, they're all sorry. 18:34 So so you gotta school people that aren't like native from Bardstown and back was that kind of grew up as a city folk so on and talk about what is banana coconut? I've never even had frog legs in my life. See? 18:47 My pond? Yeah, so you're down there. We'll get you 18:51 a gig. That's all 18:52 you need a gig in the flashlight but banana croquette. The way I grew up eating it was not the made for the TV show. I had to I had to class. 19:02 But you didn't do just banana mayo and crush. 19:06 That's it is it's a banana of very rightness depends on your family, or whether somebody forgot to buy the bananas, you can always tell. And usually it's either a Dukes or a Hellman's. I've known people to do miracle whip. Yeah, it's a big 19:21 mistake. It's a big mistake. I do Helmand 19:23 you've got to go elements it Dukes with the sugar can work a little bit, but then crushed peanuts. And my grandma had a hand crank peanut Crusher and she would use skin on Spanish peanuts. No idea why 19:39 I don't like this. I think we just use whatever planners we 19:42 do. Yeah. Not too fancy. 19:44 Well, the way we're doing it now we actually have a farmer and Loretta and they have heirloom peanuts. They they're five generations deep growing these peanuts in Loretta. And they have five little nuts in the shell there nothing like I know. So I use those just like a shalom to the people and stuff. The way we made it for the show. You're basically making almost like a Hollandaise sauce, eggs and vinegar and sugar. And you whisk it over a double boiler, it doubles in volume, you add a little bit of vinegar, apple cider vinegar to it, you keep whisking it, you take it off the heat, you add a little bit of peanut butter, and you add a little bit of mayonnaise to that and it makes almost like a fudge sauce. Then you pour it all over the banana. And then you put crushed nuts. So I had to chef it up. And that's actually a recipe I found from the late 1800s. I collect cookbooks. And so I had some old Kentucky cookbook and they had this recipe in it. So it makes it so much better when you don't hear stories about it, but you can actually find it. So then when somebody questions, yeah, you can, you know, take it back and say look, this isn't just Manet's and the way we grew up with the shirt, you know what I mean? Like there's a it's rooted in the quick version. 20:52 Yeah, you know, the way well, and that's the only way I've ever eaten it. Yeah, honestly, until we got the call about the show. And then I just went deep. And that most proud thing is getting the banana croquette somehow a little bit of attention because it's got to be the weirdest thing that uh, that I made for him for sure. That's awesome. Yeah, you know, Newman, the reason I respect you is because you do do banana croquettes and you do embrace like, two of my favorite things ever are Jake's 150 quick stop sausage, hot sausage, and you gotta you gotta get you gotta give some some background here. There's this. He's groups in Springfield. So Springfield and Bardstown. There's road 150 that connects on the this quick stops What? Maybe halfway? 21:37 It's all right. Yeah, right, right in the middle. I mean, batlin 21:41 white tail, but they make this sausage and the spice blend that goes in it and it's incredible. They put on you can buy it here and what Paul's and stuff for like 10 times the price that you would pay for their but it's incredible in any dish. 21:54 Why don't know if you knew this, but my first job when I turned 16 was a butcher. And I was a butcher's assistant and butcher shop called the meat house in Springfield. My boss ran numbers. And the legend that I've been told and I believe is that Jake's won't fit the recipe was lost in a card game between my boss and think I've heard that story. And that's and that's how the rest of you got over there. So when I was 16, I was making not Jake's 150 I was making the meat house version, okay, of that sausage. And that's why I still don't have any hair anymore. It was thousands of pounds a week every every week. And it was my favorite. So Jake's The reason I still because that we got them in food and wine magazine. There's a little they got a little to page right up or something. And it was because sausage ball recipe we put in there. But there's just something about that sausage and it being iconic. I mean, biscuits and gravy was one of the things that we did for an iconic dish, because it happens in a lot of places. But there's not a sausage culture around breakfast sausage, in a lot of places like in hockey. Right. He could have done it. Couple other southern states could have tried. But Kentucky Really? 23:05 Yeah, it's kind of like Drake and you know, or something you know of the sausages? 23:09 Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's great. I mean, they still make it in the gas station. always joke is the best gas station 23:16 I've ever had. Change Your Life. 23:18 Yeah. And the other thing that you did with that to, you know, to kind of like bring in some of the Northern Kentucky folks, you know, you did you use something with Guetta, as well in the show to 23:27 do you know what one of the other episodes definitely got together? I think I put it up. And but some of the things that I put up, they said they already had other episodes for Yeah, that's why there's no fried chicken, necessarily in my episode, or, in my case, I tried to give them do fried quill. The hot Brown, you know, I worked at the brown hotel was my first job out of culinary school. But there's no hot brown on our episode, because I think that come came on down the line a little bit. So you know, it was hard coming up with the list. And then as soon as done you think of 10 more iconic things that Yeah, 24:03 and you know, 24:04 yeah, I mean, child shower, like all these little things. And I'm only from one of the regions like that's the other thing. I don't think I gave Western Kentucky and Eastern Kentucky 100% of what they could have had because I'm from Central Kentucky sure is a different cuisine. Yeah. 24:22 So How cool was it that? I guess the challenge if you haven't seen that, so the challenge was to create the chefs were to create their own version of what you made from How cool was that? And like, and I want to well talk about that personalized follow up question. 24:38 Honestly, it's kind of surreal. Just Just the fact that the way they framed it was that I was the expert on Kentucky cuisine. And I mean, I'm born and raised. I've eaten since I was born of I do cook professionally. And but for them to sort of believe it and eat it. And you can tell that they believed it. Because you know, when they're eating, they could they could feel how excited we were to share those dishes with them. I think everybody did a great job. I think it's, it's one of the hardest things you can ever do is cook another chef's food when you take it seriously because, you know, is is you can't cook somebody else's food. And so that's why it was so interesting whenever we judge them to sort of go through it and see their influence. And, you know, how much did they take away? Or did they really just cook their meal? Right? In a way that? Yeah, didn't? 25:31 And I'm glad you said you had you different few different spices here and there. Yeah. 25:36 How hard is it to judge fellowships, knowing what they've gone through? And like, are they like, Look, you really need to critique or, like, you know, what's, how did they approach it when you're a judge on the show? 25:47 Or did the producers say like, you gotta be honest there, you gotta, you gotta know, they'll hold back like, yeah, that was a session go, 25:52 no leaving at all. It was it was, it wasn't that hard. I mean, you know, you take into account obvious because you live the life. And you, you know, you saw how hard it was for them to do the elect hot, but it's always hot. Like, you know, like that that part was hilarious, because it's dramatic for TV. But we used to work the monitors in our chef coat. And I mean, it'd be 130 degrees on your station. You know, if you ran a grill station, you literally were cooking, you know, your skin was tight at the end of the night. So, you know, 90 degrees with humidity is just what it is, you know, a part of it. There could be a tobacco farmer episode, and it's much hotter, you know. And so anyway, it was easy from the judges standpoint, just because all I do is eat and taste. You know, I mean, you just taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, taste. And you do it so that instantly when you taste something, you know, it's right or it's wrong. Sure. And then why is it taking a bourbon when you got a barrel papers on? Yeah, exactly. You're being analytical. I mean, it's not, you know, you don't want to sit in front of master distiller and say, This is terrible. This one is flat. This one needs more time, you forgot about this one. And the tannins are outrageous, right. But that's what you have to do when you're spending the money on it. And so that's the same, the same idea, you know, we were the customer. You know, nobody did a bad job. And that made it a lot easier. You know, if somebody had really bombed, none of us wanted to sit there and you know, rail on them, but I guess we could have 27:32 funny Fred on there. I think he got like one line in he was like, I was like, that's typical Fred, like, critical, like, you know, like, get get my piece in? 27:41 Yeah, I mean, you had a lot of face time in it. And it was, it was really cool to see a lot of the ways that you were directing people and talking to people about this, but I kind of want to shift a little bit and talk about your, your relationship to rob Samuels with this as well, you know, was there? Was there a pep talk beforehand, because I know there's probably like a lot of the line for Maker's Mark here to get this right. And he was like, I trust you. 28:01 But I trust you. But be on your A game today. 28:03 You know what, Rob, I gotta give it to rob. He's pretty hands off. Manager when it's big picture. I think, you know, like any good person when it comes to the details, you got to be involved. But, you know, he really honestly trusted that we were going to do our absolute best. I think that we've we've done, you know, that the only thing I can promise that I'll be on time, and I'll try my best. And like, those are two things that I always, you know, sort of do. And Rob knows that. And, you know, I don't he didn't say anything, it was wonderful. He just he said, this is your day thing. I mean, you know, it was like this, this is your day. And that's about as inspirational of a thing. As somebody can tell you, I think they really believe in you, whenever they say something like that. So yeah, Rob was, Rob was fantastic about it. The team, you know, the brand, I think the brand might have been more nervous than Rob was, right. There's a brand involved 29:00 in that would have been as a designer center, like 29:04 agencies, and there's budgets and all these and I don't blame my Beaver, I'd be worried if I just sent a chef out to go and represent. But I think everybody ended up happy with it. I think that the you know, the show itself showed off the campus, unbelievably, I mean, there's nothing I could have done about that. That is no relation to me or my food or anything. But it's a beautiful place to be able to serve food. And I mean, that's really why we're together is they want hospitality. And they want the highest level. That That makes sense as we grow of service and the food. And that's been a sandwich shop and we reopen and you know, a little while, it'll be a different level of that. And we'll just keep on sort of evolving. They trust us to do it. And we're really just trying to match up against, you know, do growing up in Washington County, there were two types of weddings. Either a beer truck would show up with taps on the side with Bud Light, or when you cut your truck and bourbon and coke, and it was always makers and coke and a red cup. And like that was its iconic. I mean, everybody, am I you know, the guys whose dads worked in distilleries worked at Maker's Mark, I could drive there in seven minutes from my parents house. And we used to go swimming in the lake. I mean, and so this before they had 24 hour security, I promise you don't want to try to go swimming a moon anymore. No, no, don't do that. But you know, just being around that makes us want to raise our game. And you know, yeah, make them proud. 30:42 So after was over re like, sigh relief. It's done, or were you like, shit, let's do it again tomorrow. Like, what were what 30:50 was the deep breath? Yeah, it was a solid deep breath. I mean, we, we lost a couple key staff members right beforehand, which is always a bummer. But Anna people got to grow and do their thing. And so it was it was a little bit trying, you know, but I do it again, in a heartbeat. I think you know, 10 minutes later, I was probably ready again. But right away, it was definitely a deep breath. And it's kind of surreal. Like I said, I mean, it's a lot going on in the middle of Loretta, Kentucky. 31:24 And it's all about food. You know, I mean, I just 31:27 couldn't want a better Yeah, yeah. So we're at the pinnacle of the, you know, of your trajectory. So let's get back to the beginning. So how does a kid from Springfield, Kentucky, get on top chef talk about how you got into food? Why did you choose food? And why did you think you know, Central Kentucky is where you want to call home and start your own restaurant. Okay, not loaded, loaded in that question. sit back and listen, I think you can handle it. 31:54 When I was seven, I wrote a letter culinary school. Mom, my mom's a school teacher. And she laminated it and copied it and kept a copy forever. And I don't know what I was thinking. I have nobody in my family that cook particularly well. My dad was the big cook. And I mean, he's a very good cook. But there wasn't a culinary sort of influence on either side. But tomatoes 12 was cooking like little three course meals and I don't think I've ever eaten a three course meal. I don't know where I even knew that you were supposed to have three courses. You didn't see it on TV or 32:27 I don't know, magazines or 32:28 we didn't have cable. So I don't know. It's really weird. And then I started culinary school 12 days after I graduate high school. So I was 17. I finished you know, 18 months later, I went to solvent in Louisville. 32:42 But you were doing a year at the butcher shop at 16 is I was 16. 32:45 The other day the day I turned 16. I was at the butcher shop. I stayed at the butcher shop for the first three months culinary school and then had moved to Louisville. I was falling asleep on the drive to school. It was Yeah, it's a little rough. So I moved to Louisville and had a couple of really terrible. They weren't terrible jobs, jobs and terrible places. And it's still some of my biggest learning experiences. Just things I would never do again. But it was really good to sort of do during culinary school and then I worked for Joe Castro at the brown. Whenever I got out chef Joe was still there. He's the master it was wonderful working for him. 33:32 Make a main hub around her if 33:34 we make a very good we do it Lexington style. So we do the exact hot brown of the brown hotel plus country ham. And I was born in Lexington. So from one to five live there. And yeah, so I've got a little soft spot. And if you can add country ham. Yeah. wins. Yeah, it's who doesn't want salty hand? Yeah, exactly. So work to the brown hotel. got a chance to go up to come diesel engine after that. I lived in Columbus, Indiana. So I was the private chef for the owner of the company. And then my boss. He cooked 12 Michelin stars. He was he was just a badass Gotham Thomas. And I was his junior and senior sous chef there in Indiana for a couple of years. Moved to Scotland and did a short little stint in Scotland. It wasn't exactly what I what I thought I signed up for but I had a good time. Too much rain. You know what the weather I loved it. I only need the sun to make vegetables grow. I'm a weirdo in that respect. You know, I really, I dug that. I love the people. 34:39 We spend enough summers here you're like I'll take cloudy and so yeah, cool. 34:45 Yeah, exactly. But uh, Scala was great. But I had broken up with my girlfriend to move to Scotland. And her name is Rachel, who's now my wife. And so I realized I'd probably just made a couple of mistakes. And I moved from Scotland to Chicago. Chicago worked at North pond restaurant. So it's a Michelin one star restaurant when I first moved there. And then I got into research and development. I was a corporate chef for companies. I did that for the next six, seven years. We did eight. We always say eight winners. We did eight winners in Chicago. And that was it. pick winners. Yeah. 35:21 It's it's it's brutal. It's brutal. 35:23 Oh, it was unbelievable. I mean, my first one or two I still didn't have proper clothes. You know, it's like you're wearing your Kentucky winter clothes. And it doesn't 35:32 really like slices right there. Yeah, 35:35 that's what last time I was there. You can't find anybody without those Canadian goose down jackets nowadays. And those things are expensive. But there's a reason why they have them. Yeah. 35:45 Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, was like, 35:47 like trekking on Everest. And you're there. 35:48 Yeah. That and then between jackets and strollers, you spend all your money, you know, you can't afford two cars. So you get a nice stroller for the second one. Yeah. But we did Chicago. I, you know, really, really enjoyed the product development side and the research and development but a long story short, I broke my broke my foot in my ankle, pretty bad. And I was out of work for six weeks. And I had this sort of job that I could be out of work. And somehow it It worked. And my wife just knew I wasn't particularly happy with you know, the sort of business that I was getting into at the very end and she said we should open a restaurant in Kentucky. And it wasn't the first time we'd ever talked about it. We had obviously baton back and forth what really started happening was barrel pics became big. So if you think 2011 1213 when the barrel pics, I think that's it, you know, oh, seven a week, still old school. But I think of how lots of distilleries started opening up barrel pics, right. And our friends all ran bar programs in Chicago. Since I wasn't in a kitchen all the time. Now. I became really close to bar. You know, bartenders, so Blackbird, the violet, our the scofflaw group, like they were our best friends. And they were all coming down to Kentucky and doing barrel pics. Going to Louisville having a blast at knock bar and, you know, a garage bar couple of you know, places that were around then. They're devils in AD. And, and then but then they're coming back and they were bummed out about the food. Yeah, you know, and they were bummed out a little bit about the cocktails, right. There wasn't you know, in those years, there weren't cocktail bars. Pearl wasn't around, you know, the silver dollar was it? I was actually getting drinks from the beverage director for silver dollar. 37:48 Larry, you 37:50 know, Susie, so his his partner Susie, was the bartender, a big star, which was my local watering hole in Chicago me 37:59 sense because when I went to big star, I was like, this is like an exact replica of silver dollar, like which one came first? 38:07 The chicken was Maria. It was in this case, but I mean, you know, we just saw we just saw an opening. It kind of made me a little bit not upset. I mean, I wasn't mad at Kentucky or something like that, right. I mean, I chose not to live here for a long time. But I just knew that there are really people doing this now and it's on the industry level right now. But it's going to get down to a normal person level. And what's going to be there, you know, and we started investigating, I grew up in a, an old house built in 1800s. To get a liquor license in Kentucky is weird. There's still a lot of esoteric kind of blue laws. And you know, my county is moist. You know, you can have a liquor license in the city but not in the county. And then we found out a restaurant was for selling bars town in a historic gold home. We could live upstairs 39:02 I called circa sir. Yeah, 39:03 yeah, that was the name of it was circa because it was built circa 1780. Okay, so it's the oldest stone home in Nelson County. And we live on the top two floors and then open the restaurant on the bottom. And that was it. I mean, that was five years ago this year. And 39:23 that was the birth of Harrison Smith. That was 39:25 the birth of Harrison Smith house. Yeah. And then, about two years into Harrison Smith house. We started making barbecue sandwiches in the Toll House me at a makers that had 12 seats. And that was the start of Stargell provisions. So what did you approach them about doing that? Or did they kind of ask you like, Hey, we need somebody we got a lot of visitors coming here that are mega destination, but they need something to eat. 39:53 Hey, it's Kenny here. And I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky, at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65 Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out bourbon on the banks.org 40:38 right here, have you ever been traveling or on a date night or just wanting to pack your favorite booze or wine or cocktail and it just turns out to be a big mess? Well, we have a perfect solution for you. The Asian or travel decanter is made of 500 milliliter hand-blown glass encased in two double wall stainless steel tumblers. So you got glasses already there with you. We're running a special promotion for bourbon pursuit where you can get yours at pursuit travel to canter calm. Go get yours today. 41:06 There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? Rock house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rack houses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in 40 states and rack houses June box they're featuring a distillery that claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey rack house whiskey club is shipping out two bottles in there, including its beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye, both of which were finished in barrels that were once used to mature America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged stout. And if you're a beer guy like me, you would know that's new Hollins dragon milk, go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel, right? Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 42:06 Did you approach them about doing that? Or did they kind of ask you like, Hey, we need somebody we got a lot of visitors coming here that are making a destination but they need some to eat. 42:15 You know what? I think that I asked if I could sell barbecue sandwiches. Okay, at the Toll House. I think that literally, that was about as basic as it as it started. And I think before that, there wasn't I mean, we still opened as the first. I think the first restaurant in a distillery, I think we we got that one or something like that. And I mean, even then, before that it was all employees that was that was sort of the focus was how do you be a dining room and then also sort of serve guests. And we just sort of turned that a little bit. And we still love, love, love to get the employees in and to feed people that work there. But primarily now Yeah, we're just focused. I mean, that's who's coming in on a Saturday and October we're going to see 550 plus guests from 1130 to 430 on a day. 43:09 So when you which is pretty good for even an average 43:11 restaurant, it's it's, it's it's a crush, man. It's an absolute crush. And then on Saturdays, between May to the end of October, every Saturday night, we do ticket dinners. So you buy your ticket ahead of time you come in, it's a set three course meal, three cocktails, we write the menu that morning. So we swap from being a fast casual lunch place to as comfortable of a fine dining experience because I mean we really don't try to add a lot of the stodgy parts but you know it's its proper food is cold smoked fraud quell you know want to leave on a salad and yeah, just you know country cooking but tuned up a little bit. 43:53 Hop in the makers man, we gotta go to Whole Foods. 43:57 Man, you know, many times I wish there was a whole foods of down there. You just change that to change what you're doing. 44:03 So like some of the main food disturbers? Will they come all the way down there like a like a creation gardens or 44:08 you know what creation actually have to get they delivered to my house and barge town. Okay, I have the walking coolers there. And then I have to take it from walking coolers and bars down down there working on it. And hopefully they'll hear this and work on it even faster. Very excited to to get deliveries in Loretta. 44:27 I know some people there I'll put in actually started the pot for Hey, well we 44:31 like to use. So. Yeah. But it's it's a challenge. I mean, I think staff is probably the biggest challenge. We have great staff. You know, I think everybody who we employ we're really lucky to have, but it's finding people with passion and talent. And, you know, if you're not from there, it can be intimidating. You know, living in the country is just like living in the city. I mean, they're both intimidating if you aren't from one of the other. But such a good place. You know, the the pace is right, we can really focus on what it is if you're into food or drink or beverage. You focus on what matters and you don't have to spend a lot of time Yeah, with the extras, the permitting the you know, sort of the crush that comes around. And so, yeah, staffing is the difficult 45:20 I got a question just being from the region. So like, obviously, tourists coming in, will embrace and kind of take on you know, your the quality of food and don't mind paying higher How hard was it to like, convince the locals because like, I know, you know, Central Kentucky is not a wealthy, it's not poor. It's not wealthy. So people are kind of like putting a put off by like, high end food because it's so expensive. How hard is it? Was it to convince people that like, Come tries, I promise, you know, it's good. I gotta be honest, people do great. 45:55 There's always going to be naysayers, right? There's always going to be, but when people we'll see working your hardest, and doing everything you can and they see the product that your bond and they start to get interested in. You know, the rabbits you get where you get them. And why is this chicken tastes different than chicken that I used to have? Like That was the conversation that really got us through it was we charged what we charged, but it was based in math, right? I mean, it would be terrible. If it wasn't a we wouldn't have been ever to exist. You know, we buy better products. They cost more money. If we do our job, right, they taste that much better. And that's really was the difference maker. You know, there was only two of us that did every bite of food. And every drink basically that ever got served at Harrison Smith house in the last part. We were lucky to have a couple of friends come and help us on Friday and Saturday nights. Paul scurrilous who has Korean restaurant here in town? Yes. came and worked with us for a number of months. We had a good me Anthony who came in and worked with us. He was fantastic. But two of us did. 100% every bite of pastry ever roll every the bone chicken thigh, every cocktail. And you know, I think people Yeah, but people got it, you know, they could. That was what helped us get through it. You know, there were always some pushback. There was always a little naysaying i mean you know, I it's not always easy to get my parents to come in because they didn't want me to come home every time and we didn't eat at restaurants like that whenever I was growing up but you know what made it easier was knowing that we did it in react based in reality, not trying to get rid sure yet. Hell if we if I learned how to start cooking to get rich. 47:48 You're out of reality now. Yeah, but uh, but yeah, I mean, you know, 47:54 I think it's a challenge anywhere I think that chicken is chicken I think that when you put eggs with something, everybody thinks it's worthless. Like these are just common trends that unfortunately follow restaurants around everywhere. And that being said the tourism business is big enough that we didn't have to cater to anybody in particular we were really lucky we got to make our food and sell it and when we needed to we added a three course fried chicken dinner on Wednesday night you know and it was still $25 awesome. But I mean you know for a fried chicken meal and fast foods five bucks is ours already. So we were still you know, five times more than people thought but the number of teachers and like just like you said, real people that came to eat with us it was nothing short of flattering and you know, so a lot of our best customers weren't I don't want to pretend like I know what they're like but you know the super fluent they weren't the who's who of Barcelona started out now the who's who's duty there as well don't get me wrong shirt. Oh 49:04 yeah, for sure. I want to kind of talk about so you've been embraced kind of by the bourbon community like who's involved in I think a lot of that's probably to do it trickles been I know you guys are pretty close talked about how your you all got hooked up I guess and think kind of how you got thrown into the bargain community? 49:20 Yeah, um, you know, when we moved to bars town I knew who drew was will it was really starting to in a national sense. Get more notoriety as to you know what k bf is and or I'm sorry, k Kentucky Kentucky bourbon fest for Kentucky Association. Nice. Name all of them. Good. 49:44 Jackie know, the Kentucky bourbon distillers are 49:48 Yeah, TBD. Yeah. Here we go. their parent company. There we go. 49:51 Yeah, there we go. And people were starting to visit. Yeah, as we can tell, they were starting to figure that out. And so I saw Drew, and I, you know, sort of in the middle. Yeah. And I was like, man, I hope that I can get to know this guy. I hope that this is your peers that sort of becomes and ended up meeting. We're talking about best customers. I mean, nobody's there like every day nobody ate at me when 50:14 you first came out. He was like, thank god this place and they didn't get a decent meal. 50:19 You know, Drew Drew, without a doubt. It was the and still is really one of the biggest supporters we've had for the restaurant. He He really loves cuisine. I mean, he, he embraces it. High and low. It doesn't have to be fancy. If it is he still likes that an awful lot. But now it was just, you know, and then we got to know each other. I remember, he gave us a gift. When we opened and we barely knew each other. We've met a couple of times, and he brought me a new some ham. foot on like one of these. You've got to be in line for three years. The ages in the basement? Yes. Well, we got him on that little while. But this hand was I mean, it was one of the most special things we've ever gotten. He just brought it in, gave it to us. Here you go, guys. Thanks for being in town and sort of went from there. we'd hang out, you know, obviously was such a cult bourbon. You know, it was really interesting to go over to his place. And once you see his his bourbon collection, it makes you want to stop collecting bourbon a little. Boy, you just it's just a realization sort of moment here. Now you go well, I guess I could have a lot of will it are a lot of anything, right? Yeah. But I'm never going to have it all. It's like makers bottles, right? We started collecting those at the restaurant for a little while. But these makers fans, they have a million times more than we'll ever have. Yeah, so now we open the collectible ones. And like we do them all as charity bottle. So people just freak out because they see their collectible bottles open. But we put the whole price of the shot for charity. And then we get to see what whiskey at that time. tasted like. I'll tell you what the 96 championship bottle. Fantastic. Got some gentlemen. 52:05 It's fantastic. 52:09 Exactly, exactly. But you know, so anyway, back to drew we. Yeah, we just hit it off, man. And then he got me into cigars. You know? 52:18 If you think he has a lot of will it's why do you see a car collection? 52:22 Yeah, he's got a he's got a pretty pretty rises selection. And, you know, he's always had something to talk about. I'm interested in the whiskey, he's interested in food. We both sort of have mutual respect, I think for for what the other ones doing and and he was just a massive supporter. I mean, there's nothing like putting your money where your mouth is. And you know, if you want to have nice things, you have to work at it. And he was always down to do his part to make sure that you know, we were doing well. I mean, then our first year when things were really hard. You know, that's when whiskey pig started her. now known as Berea nationally known as but maybe now we can call it whiskey pig again. Okay, and I don't know, but I like whiskey pig better. But you know, him starting that was was a big move between that and there's a guy named Greg Jensen. Do you guys know Greg? I know the name. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, out of California. 53:15 My wife and I were walking. We're pushing a stroller. 53:20 Maybe we've been open for two or three weeks. And it was our first. Like, I think I had four hours off. And we were taking a walk. And we met this gentleman. And he seemed lost. And we gave him directions. And then he asked if we knew about the restaurant on the corner. And we're like, yeah, it's ours. Long story short, he comes in the next night with his wife and his mother in law. And it's the first time anybody's ever asked for a tasting menu. He says, Can you do it? And Josh and I are in the back and we're sweating. And we're like, nervous and, like goosebumps. And we're like, yeah, we can't do that. That's that's what we've trained to do. But we thought we're coming to make fried chicken, you know. And I swear, I think we cooked everything we could, he drank wine, he drink bourbon, they had a blast, and the ticket might have been 300 300. Like, we just went through the wall Adam, and it was experiences when it wasn't bad, because we just weren't set for that yet, you know, but he was deeper in the bourbon world than we would have known. And he started telling people, and then we started doing these dinners for barrel pics, because I think your second part of the question was, how do we get involved in the community? And that was it. That I mean, between drew and the whiskey pig. And then sort of guys starting to do their their pics, you know, and then have a dinner for 20 afterwards. That did it. And, you know, just built and built and built and we still do those dinners all the time at Harrison Smith house. 54:54 I mean, we we've been in one. Yeah, we have. 54:57 Yeah, you know, I kinda want to talk a lot about you know where it is your passion for bourbon come from as well. You know, we really, really talked about because you do you drink bourbon like you have? You have a knack for it. You love it. You know, where did that passion really come from as well. I'm 55:11 swimming in makers like Yeah. 55:15 I mean, just being very honest, the earliest moonshine that we used to be able to get was always an empty makers bottles, which is odd, but it was one of those little connection things. And, you know, for me, I is just a national, you know, it's a pride thing. I like gin. I love drinking a gin and tonic Don't get me wrong, but knowing where it's from what it is what is made out of the people who grew the corn, the people who make it, like, at this point, there's no turning back from it, right. It's like, I love scotch. I love all these things. There's, you know, I'm pretty equal opportunity. But bourbon is the sort of, you know, the sun and other things evolve well rounded in terms of our beverage selection choice. It makes sense because of where we are obviously, but even if it wasn't so many of the classic cocktails, I love even a Bardstown bourbon right now, they do the Tiki drinks with bourbon involved. I love that. I mean, it's just versatile. I don't know my grandma drink. bourbon, my great aunt, who our house cocktail is, you know, we have a house cocktail. We've had it since the day we opened Harrison Smith, and it's still at makers. And it's what she would make for yourself every day at 11am when the price is right was on. And she would make one highball. And watch Bob Barker. And then I guess and yeah, 56:41 yeah. Yeah. And 56:46 that's what she would do. And I can remember as a little kid, helping her get the ice bucket and watching this sort of go down. And, you know, my grandma would drink, heaven Hill, Green Label and coke. And at Christmas time, my dad would borrow Bala makers. And she would always it was just like, it was a script. She say, Pat Newman, I can't, I can't put coke with that, you know, I can't have that. You know, it's just one of these little cultural things that, like I didn't grow up thinking about a prohibition and sort of stance on a lot of things and alcohol. I mean, it just, yeah, so the family was going to drink a little bit of bourbon. And that, yeah, that was it. 57:29 So again, another kind of question for you. Because, you know, you've talked about makers a lot. But, you know, we knew you know, we talked about chefs in bourbon, there's a there's a few that stand out. They had these kind of like magical pairings, right? So, you know, the lady Anthony Bourdain, he had a very tight connection to loving Pappy Van Winkle, Chef Sean Brock, very into like the very, very old Fitzgerald's Well, not anymore. Well, not anymore. But right. Do you have something that you have in a collection that you adorn, that you go back and like, that's your, that's your kind of like, staple thing that you love? 58:00 Be honest, if we're going to talk vintage at all. 58:05 It could be anything I like, I like to I like two things together. I like almost I like the weirdest of the weird. So this could mean that mean, you get to hang out around distillers. So you know, there's things that never get a label put on them. Absolutely. I want that. I want that sea creature that I a dime that weird. Well, maybe it's off way. Like I want way off profile. And I want a chartreuse. Those are my two things. I want a little sip of both of those. I mean, but yeah, because genuinely the best things I've ever had didn't have a label. And yeah, they wouldn't have passed any QC test. They. And there's a couple of distilleries to be perfectly honest. I mean, you know that I've that I've had that from 58:52 go and we're listening. Which ones? 58:56 Well, let me check the label reports here. But you know what I'm saying I mean, I'm not trying to try to dodge it. But I'm not really a brand guy. I don't I don't have one thing that I've always gravitated towards more than the other. It's constant. Just trying to fame few shots of heaven Hill white label and old Bardstown with the in the back. And you know what, even without a doubt, I mean, the highest of the high and the lowest of the low is really where I want to sit. I mean, that that's, you know, the most time where, where I find the most pleasure is those two sort of spectrums of things. I think the middle is where things get cloudy a little bit. You know, that $50 price range nowadays that 6075 is just a different sort of piece than it used to be and give me below or above that. And I'm usually generally pretty happy. Yeah. 59:50 So then another thing I kind of want to talk about, and this kind of goes back to, because I think we do ourselves a disservice if we didn't grab this little nugget of information, because we were upstairs and you were talking about your time I'm in the corporate world that you had a hand and one of the most, I'm glad you brought the biggest breakfast sandwiches that are out there today. So kind of talk about that. 1:00:09 Yeah, hangover cure of choice. 1:00:10 So one of my very first projects that I was involved in, so I, I'm 22 years old, or 20, maybe 23, I don't know, and lived in Chicago, and I get a job at this product development firm. And they work with all kinds of different food service companies coming up with new products. And McDonald's wants to come up with something new, something innovative, and they decided to do a pancake sandwich right? What do they call that to make griddle? Yeah, they'll you'll make griddle. And so our part in it is how do you deliver syrup without getting it on somebody's savings. And that was our piece of the project. And we worked and worked and worked and ended up with these little encapsulate, you know, like Halloween when you go out trick or treating. Have those bats any bite them there's like juice and Saudi? Yeah, well, that food grade wax is what we ended up using. And each one of those materials has tiny little pocket of syrup, wrapped grade logic. It is magic. It truly is. Because the thing is, if I was to give you a handful of them to eat, they would never melt in your mouth. It takes a certain like cooking temperature before they'll fully Melton it's an encapsulation. And so yeah, yeah, that was a fun project. But you know, the one around here gets everybody is campfire chicken, for Cracker Barrel, they'll really do all the billboards of Yeah, that photo got taken in a basement in Chicago seven years ago. Like, how wild is that, you know, this sort of country looking dish of a half a chicken roasted with carrots and stuff was a Kentucky boy in Chicago, selling to a Tennessee company to put on billboards all over little weird little combo circle of life. 1:02:00 So like, kind of one of the last questions that I have is, is kind of, you know, we've talked about bourbon, we've talked about food, but where did the two kind of really intersect for you? Do you look at it as a way of cooking does more pairing like what What's your real take on it? 1:02:15 You know, people ask a lot about what I think pairs best. And I know that's not the question, but part of it is, you know, and I'm just a firm believer that good goes with good. And it's not a scapegoat example to like, get out of pairing things because I could give you exact, but I think that genuinely there's like a couple of levels that you can enjoy food and bourbon and everything else on you know, there's the straight hedonist level, which is great. And it's a little bit too much of, you know, responsibly too much of everything. But you know, lots of food is like the dinner I cooked for Top Chef as too much food too much, but it's just too much, right, you feel good about it, you're going to eat the leftovers, you're not wasting it. But you know, there's sort of that level of pairing. And then when you go to the high end, we just got back from from Spain, my wife and I, and you know, we were doing these sort of Michelin tasting menus. And it was amazing how much the pairings played into the total meal. And it was a reminder to me because with cocktails, we'd be a little bit more careful. We can't go 10 courses. 10 cocktails is never going to work. You know, wine and beer sort of have that play. But I came back with just a stronger desire to think about what exactly does go together instead of always

— No, I have not seen a lot of sunrises… — The orange, then red, then bright yellow, – all big, bright… — I know. It’s making all clear, all alive again… — The fuss starts… — The change of stance, they cycle, the rhythm again… — Let’s wait… — There… You see the disco that soon becomes too bright to look at, then too hot to enjoy… It can burn if you are close. Some tiny atmosphere is between us and the sun… — Time to go to the field – the boy and his father are on the path to the crop field. — Time to sleep – the tiger-mum and her cub are on the path from the night hunt, back to the cave… Africa… He’s read so much about it… All the wilderness, all the adventures… Rivers… Waterfalls… Jungles… Animals… Heroes… Mysteries… The life so simple… As the sunrise, there, the ball, the disco, the big bright yellow sun… Something pure, sometimes brutal, sometimes evil, but all so human; crystal clear… No… Not kind… Just… Just natural…. Sunrise. The disco rising in the sky. Africa. Rising. — How can I learn or perceive all the physics, origins, history, reasoning, mechanisms, – it all has become too complex a system… There’s a theory that evolves, the theory which is all about the rules evolving, hence the theories evolving, meta-laws, meta-theories, theory of everything, all the concepts, meanings – shall I ever try to think there’s any future to general education? Or if there is any future to it, perhaps the whole idea is to scrutinize, criticize, evolve, develop, change, make it all different!.. Again, again, again and again… Creative destruction… Evolution… — Go ahead! Change! Criticize! Burn! Ashes to grow into something new, better, higher, brighter, smarter… Again, again, again and again… Rise… From ashes… Re-orient! Towards the rising sun – just like the sun is changing the point of ascent, depending on the time of the year… Yes, there are rules; yes, they evolve; yes, it develops; yes, it’s something new… — Do not expect the same day to repeat with the sun rising. Expect all new, expect something unique… — Gooooooood Morniiiiiing, Baby!.. — Gooooooood Morniiiiiing, America! “Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness.” / Mary Oliver / Why I Wake Early / — Brand new day, – Sting sings… Rising! Thank you for joining me in this journey towards emotional healing, finding oneself and remembering what makes us happy. The topics covered in these podcast episodes are: #Emotional Healing #Finding Yourself #Follow Your Wings #Happiness is a Choicr #Meditating Meditating #Peace of Mind #Psychological Journey #Reminiscences Reminiscences #Thinking Aloud #Thoughts Thoughts #Leap of Faith #Short Stories #Short Story Series #Blogging Everyday #Thinking Along Writing #Finding Inner Self #Therapy Therapy #Art Therapy #Psycho Flow #Read at Night #What to Believe In #Why to Live #What Makes Life Beautiful #Imagination Imagination #Creativity Creativity #Inspiration Inspiration #Life is a Story #Faith Faith #Uncensored Uncensored #Symbols Symbols --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/zack-followingz/message

Episode 60 - “Lyrical Jargon”Blue and FC are holding it down for this episode. Just Just talking, as usual…This week we discuss the Super Bowl, the 21 savage arrest, and a number of other events you probably saw running down your timeline. In addition, we want to send our love and support to Donovan as he deals with the loss of his father. All Love always bro…

Episode 60 - “Lyrical Jargon”Blue and FC are holding it down for this episode. Just Just talking, as usual…This week we discuss the Super Bowl, the 21 savage arrest, and a number of other events you probably saw running down your timeline. In addition, we want to send our love and support to Donovan as he deals with the loss of his father. All Love always bro…

An hour of Electro, Techno and House on the Dancefloor in memory of DJ Chopper. Appalachian Grove by Laurie Spiegel Hare Krishna by Alice Coltrane Louis’ by Albrecht La’Brooy Oh Jabba by O B Ignitt Wayne County Hill Cops by Omar S and O B Ignitt Stellar Awakening by CN Fade by Holly Herndon Chord Memories by Shan Pipe Bomb by Spekter Su What? by Awanto 3 Chants by Adultrock Jamaica Burning by Carter Bros Dancefloor 118 by Margot Le Prince noir (Pilooski Mix) by Perez Urals by Walls Renata by Holden Answer (Dub) by Ghost Culture A Thousand Nights by Gregor Tresher Demented (Or Just Crazy) by Tres Demented Sharevari by A Number of Names Nitwit by Shop Throw by Paperclip People You are so Just Just by Rework Unfurla by Clark Silver Threads by Jo Johnson

Hi I am Here with Matthew Scarfo. He provide a comprehensive fitness program for his clients that exploits every element of his expertise and 20 years of credentialled experience. Corrective Exercise, Fitness Nutrition, Functional Flexibility & Strength, Strength Training, Weight-Loss, and Lifestyle Modification. here is the full episode hope you enjoy. Listen in your favorite podcast app.  Ari Gronich 0:01 Has it occurred to you that the systems we live by are not designed to get results? We pay for procedures instead of outcomes, focusing on emergencies rather than preventing disease and living a healthy lifestyle. For over 25 years, I've taken care of Olympians Paralympians a list actors in fortune 1000 companies, if I did not get results, they did not get results. I realized that while powerful people who control the system want to keep the status quo, if I were to educate the masses, you would demand change. So I'm taking the gloves off and going after the systems as they are joining me on my mission to create a new tomorrow as I chat with industry experts, elite athletes, thought leaders and government officials about how we activate our vision for a better world. We may agree, and we may disagree, but I'm not backing down. I'm Ari Gronich and this is create a new tomorrow podcast. Welcome back to another edition of creative new tomorrow. I'm your host, Ari Gronich. And I have with me, Matthew scarfo. He is an endurance athlete, corrective exercise specialist, human movement specialist. He's got 20 plus years in the fitness and health industry, and with a array of certifications and titles behind his name. And so I am really looking forward to this conversation. Because as you know, this is kind of my bailiwick. This is what I've been doing for 26 years is performance training, helping athletes go from injuries to gold medals. And so that is, you know, I'm just so excited to have this conversation today with Matt. Matt, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, and how you got into this industry and why it's so important to you. Matthew Scarfo 1:58 Sure, so, my name is Matthew scarfo. I'm a certified personal trainer among a number of other things I got into the fitness industry about 21 years ago, almost as a lost soul. I was a I didn't do very well in school, I dropped out of high school, the only thing I really ever always fell back on was fitness and exercise. And when I was younger, it was more about aesthetics and strength, as opposed to performance and functionality. Though, one day I was working out in my parents basement, and my mother came downstairs and said, Listen, you don't do anything you dropped out of high school. You're really not racking up any points here. So why don't you pursue a career in fitness and personal training, since this is what you love to do? And you do it anyway? Why don't you invest some time and some effort into figuring that out. So I took her advice. I became a personal trainer, shortly thereafter, got my first job as a personal trainer at a local mom and pop a big gym, but a local gym nonetheless. And I moved my career. From there 10 years later to opening up my own private personal training and performance studio in Morristown, which is now closed thanks to the protracted shutdown due to COVID. But, you know, nonetheless, it's a it was a pivot point. And I think a big positive for me. And over the course of my career, I've just pursued more information, more knowledge, more understanding, and, and it's taken me to being a performance athlete, myself and endurance athlete myself. So whether it's obstacle course races, like Spartan runs, or ultra runs, or any of the other recreational crazy things that I do, I've been known to do tire flips for a few miles or walking lunges for a few miles. All in all, for the fact of just putting myself in a physical situation and experimenting with different things that that I've come across, and that I've learned to see if there's any applicability not just to my own fitness, but to my clients as well. Ari Gronich 4:03 Nice miles of lunges, just imagine if you're in the audience, do 10 lunges and see how far you are. And then imagine that you've done that for one full mile. And that's, you know, to so many people that is untenable on attainable. conscionable right. And so, yeah, it's a lot of unknowns. So, where's the mental acuity that comes with pushing your body that far? You know, like, how does how does, how does that work on a brain? Matthew Scarfo 4:53 So, I'm a firm believer and a practitioner. of if you can run five Miles, you can run 50. If you can do 50 lunges, you can do 1000 lunges, so long as that you're not in a physically deleted risk condition where you're not, quote unquote pushing through an injury. As long as you've got healthy joints, healthy muscles, healthy bones, and your energy systems are sufficient to perpetuate that kind of activity. And after you've already run five miles, the energy systems aren't going to shift, you're already aerobic, at that point, you could got enough energy stored in your body to do that for quite a long time. So tire flips, it's very much the same lunges, it's very much the same. If you could do a handful you can do them all. And in terms of the headspace that you have to achieve, it's just a matter of boredom, I suppose would be the easiest way to boil it down because you have to so a mile is about 1009 walking lunges for me and took me it takes me a little bit over say like an hour, hour and 10 minutes or so to get them done. And it's not the the pain that I feel at lunch number 800 is no different than the pain that I feel after lunch number 400. It's finding a goal and and working towards that goal, it can't be open ended because if it's open ended, then your your decision to stop is also open ended. It's the success is no more than it lunge away. failure or you know, the end of the activity is no more than a lunge away. So giving myself a particular goal, and then working towards it, knowing that every step I take is a step closer. So in terms of the the mental acuity, I mean, there's certain tricks that that I play that other endurance athletes play on themselves to, to keep these activities going for, however long they need to go on for mine in particular is I tell myself that I've already finished the activity. I'm already at the finish line waiting for you. I'm just waiting for enough time to pass on my body can catch up to the reality that I've already created. So what I'm doing is actually fulfilling. What I'm doing is I'm fulfilling the past that is necessary. In order for me to have accomplished. What it is that I'm that I'm looking for now, I'd mentioned before we had gone on air that I had listened to a few conversations that you had, and one of which you had mentioned a book, I believe it was called the science of getting rich. Right. Right. Is that Does that ring a bell? Yeah. And that's, that's, that's an old book, too. That's written by like, oh, two, I Ari Gronich 7:37 think it was originally or 19. Close to like it was the early 1900s. That book was was created. And it's the basis for the movie The secret for the entire law of attraction, you know, world that has that has been proliferated in the last probably 10, 15 years. Yeah, Matthew Scarfo 8:04 sure. And there's so much truth to that book, I it's a short book, the audio books only about an hour, actually. And I remember listening to it on a particular run that I was on. And there's so much truth to everything that is stated in that book. And what I do is I, I pick a reality, what's the reality that I want the reality of that I want is I'll give you another example back at the end of May, I decided to run from my house in North Jersey down to Washington DC, so 411 kilometers away, and the only way that I was able to do that, and it took a lot of meditation, it took a lot of praying, I do most of the time use those two terms interchangeably with all due respect back to whoever we gain our conscience from. But I wouldn't have been able to achieve that or any other goal for that matter if I didn't already see myself having accomplished it. And then making that future a certain future by by backfilling in the events that have to occur between now and then. So if I were to quit doing anything that I had set my mind to it, I'm essentially changing a future that I've already believed in. So it's it's staying on task, it's staying on track. It's reminding ourselves why we're doing this and reminding ourselves that you know, there is no future that exists other than the future that we've created for ourselves in this future casting are in this mind experiment, you know, I'm already there. My body is already there. I'm just waiting for the time to pass it this way. My now body kind of walks through the still frame of my then body that's there waiting for me. And, and just keeping keeping my head focused, or completely unfocused is sometimes also the trick but it really doesn't take much we all do it in varying degrees every single day regardless of what the task is. I've always found it to be interesting that, you know, if we're running late for work, and we anticipate getting to work nine minutes late, we end up getting to work nine minutes late. If we anticipate achieving something in a certain amount of time. It's almost as though the future conspires to make that. So. So if we set a goal, and we give ourselves an objective that we're going to hit do or die, the universe has an interesting way of conspiring to make sure that that that's true, it's almost as though we create the future by thinking in a sense, and that's, that's part of my, one of my tricks in my bag of tricks. Ari Gronich 10:39 It's pretty fascinating that the, that's how organizational planners create business plans. That's how operational organizational and operational planning happens. That's reverse engineering of anything really, is, is what you're talking about. But you're taking the next step of future planning, and then backtracking it. And then you're taking that next step, which most people don't do, which is they see the future they want. They believe in the future that they want. They plan for the future that they want. And then they see that plan. And they go, Oh, my God, I don't really want that. Right. So what drew it's made the difference between making the plan and then doing the actions that are in the plan, and doing them consistently enough that you get the result that you're after. Matthew Scarfo 11:53 I think that it is largely a challenge for everybody. It's not the first mile, that's the hardest, it's it's getting your shoes on and getting outside. That's, that's often the hardest part, we know. And I and I've got three kids, three young kids, and when they get in one of their moods, or they get frustrated with something that they're doing, I tell them, just find yourself doing what it is that you want to be doing, turn the brain off and just find find yourself outside walking on the street, that'll turn into the run, but you can make that five minutes it takes from getting your shoes on, to walk into the end of the driveway feel like a very painful eternity, if you're dreading it. But rather than dread it, make the commitment that that's what you're going to do. And then turn your brain off, you put your shoes on, you find yourself outside. And now look at this I'm running. So it's it's not the first step. It's the hardest it's it's getting, it's walking yourself up to the staircase. That's the most difficult part because action creates action. And if you take that first step, you're going to take the second step. So when my kids get into a bad mood, one of the tactics that I've used with them, my son in particular is a little tough, sometimes he's a seven years old. I tell him, I'm like, Listen, you don't need a reason you don't need an excuse to go into the bathroom, close the door. I don't care what you're doing there. But when you come out, I want you to have shifted your entire state, I want you to change your mentality. You can walk out of that bathroom, anybody you want to be, you're walking in that bathroom as somebody, Clark Kent, for that matter, and you're walking out a Superman, you can change your state, immediately, you just have to make sure that you are doing it with great intent. And you're doing it with great deliberation. You can't just walk in and walk out nothing's changed. You need to walk in, tell yourself that you're going to walk out and be confident and be empathetic, and be happy, compassionate, smart and caring. And when you come out of that, when you open that door and you walk out, you're much closer to that goal that you set than you were to any other goal that was even available to you before you walked in you were in trouble before you walked in that door. So for us, we don't have to walk into the bathroom, we could simply close our eyes, take a few deep breaths, visualize what it is that we want to do. And it doesn't necessarily have to be at the finish line just yet. You can visually Close your eyes and visualize yourself getting your shoes on put your shoes on. Take another few seconds visualize yourself walking down the driveway, you're walking on the driveway. Now visualize yourself finishing your five K or crossing the finish line or or completing what it is that you've already done. Because what you're doing is you're laying the groundwork for it. And if if you do that mentally, that's really half of that that's half of anything. I mean, that's all great things begin with intent, we need that instantiation we need there needs to be an intent in the direction of what we're trying to achieve. And without that we end up walking in circles we end up biting our nails we end up procrastinating, we end up wondering more We are doing all of those things. So, as opposed to doing that, just find that step forward. But what is that next motion that you need to perform in order to get closer to that run, and you don't have to think about all the bits and pieces of it at first, it's just what do I have to do in order to run I got to get my shoes on. Okay, I'm gonna get my shoes on, I don't want to run. We're not talking about that right now. Just put your shoes on. Great. What do I have to do next, gotta walk to the edge of the driveway, I don't want to walk to the end of the driveway, turn that off, just find your rest at the end of the driveway. And now that you're there, it's gonna take a whole lot more effort to turn around and walk back inside than it would be to take that first next step. So it's extremely important for us to to visualize, not just the end result, but what's that next step going to be until we can get over that hump and then momentum begins to take us in the direction that we're trying to go. That's always worked for me. That's, Ari Gronich 15:52 I like how detailed that is. And I like how, you know the step by step by step. As you know, my background is working with Olympic athletes and and pro athletes and I normally got them post injury, and post injury. Anybody who has an injury is trepidatious to do the thing that caused the injury. One of my things was I did a double flip over a car at 45 miles an hour off my motorcycle, literally, it was a tuck Pike, gymnastics martial arts kicked in, in the middle of what happened I got hit 45 miles an hour, t boned. And I literally took pike double flip over the car landed on my feet, unfortunately, for me was wearing sandals and shorts, which I don't recommend when you're riding a motorcycle, and and have a I didn't have a broken bone in my body. I didn't have, you know, a damaged brain or anything, did have his Road Rash, massive Road Rash. Other than that, nothing. And one of the first things that I did when I could was I got on my friend's bike, and I started to write it with Olympic athletes. They are ready to get back on the horse, but they're trepidatious and their trainers, their coaches, their their people who are not skilled in multiple modalities, typically they're they're they're pretty narrow focused. And they'll tell them you know, he'll never be as good as he was. So for example, like Kobe Bryant got injured. And Gary Vee, you know, was saying he'll be about 70% we're used to that. It's okay. You know, we're used to this in the industry. And I went and I talked to Mitch Kupchak. And I was like, No, he could be about 110% of what he was, if he's trained properly. And all you need to know like, how much money is gonna cost you for him to be out and how much money is like that was the conversation I had with him well, and is is is when somebody is injured, or weak, or they feel weak in some way. And they feel like that's going to be something that is going to stop them. And you know, this goes for me too. I got in a car accident had back to neck surgery and things like that, and I become a little trepidatious when I don't have proper trainers to work with me, even though I know what to do. You always need a coach, in my opinion, somebody to see the things and you know, that you can't see. And so I become trepidatious, I don't want to work out, I don't want to do push ups. I don't want to do exercises, right? Because I'm going to hurt myself again. So if somebody is listening to this, and they're hearing you say, just walk out the door, just put on your shoes. That is a really good first step, even if you don't actually go outside. If you get the shoes on one day, and then the next day, you open the door and close the door. And then the next day you open the door and you go outside. And then the next day you go and do the walk, you know to the driveway, and then the next day you'd walk down the block. And then the next day you walk a mile, you know, like taking those baby steps is really important. Now, I learned some of this through National Academy of Sports Medicine and you've been an ASM grad progressions, equal results right? If you try to do it all at once you create more injury. So talk to talk to us a little bit about that and how do you motivate How do you get somebody to have a belief that they can do something When they're injured, and they don't feel like like they can, there's no hope left. Matthew Scarfo 20:07 I'm so glad that you asked me this question. So I myself, I've, I've got a history of injuries as well, nothing is dramatic, thank goodness as motorcycle or car accidents. And I'm glad that you're well. But I had a slip and fall about 15 years ago on ice that ended up giving me compression fractures in T six through 10, which turned into degenerative arthritis, which has depleted the bone mass of each of those vertebrae by 20, to 30%. So I've got stenosis, I've got arthritis, I did not opt to go for that fusion simply because that procedure, they go in from the front. And I was already a father at that point, boom, when we would cross the bridge of talking about the surgery. And I wasn't going to let them deflate my lung and move my heart out of the way to get into this thing. I said, when I'm no longer able to carry my kids, we'll talk about it. But until then I'll suffer my lower back l four l five, the, the disk has gone, it looks black on it on the MRI, l five, this one also gone. I've got characteristic sciatica running down both my legs, it's always there. And it and I'm always managing pain as well. But one thing that I've coached my clients with, and I practice this is and I tell them this all the time, it's not a problem unless it's a problem. So if you anticipate it being a problem, I guess, to go back to what we had spoken about before your future casting that this thing is going to interrupt you in some way. But rather, when we've got an injury, and everybody's got something, whether it's a shoulder or wrist and elbow and knee or hip, whatever, what I what I advise my clients to do is you're you're moving around with compromised movement patterns simply because you're anticipating the pain, a pain that is never going to not necessarily ever going to spike or become an issue. But because when we move in a particular way, or in a particular range of motion, and we begin to feel the sensations that remind us that there's an injury there, we hit the brakes on it right away now, and I've had clients say, No, I want to stop there, I don't feel safe about it. So all right, well, let's unload the machine for a second and move you through the movement, let's find out exactly where is the red line. Because if you're operating in orange, that's a perceptual orange, that red line is reflective, that's where you don't have a choice, you're going to pull your hand away from the flame without even thinking about it. But you could bring your hand intentionally pretty close to that flame without being burned without causing a problem. And that's something that only the client, or the individual is really going to know because even as as great of a trainer as I claim to be, and I I claim to be a functional emphasis where I can feel my clients moving through their emotions, I can feel the tensions, I can feel the mobilities, I could, I could be in that movement with them. But I still can't feel what it is that their nervous system is telling them. So I tell them, move through a range of motion. And slowly, don't be afraid you're going to feel it's going to be uncomfortable, find where that red line is, because you've got from being completely motionless and at rest all the way through that yellow zone and up into that red line before it becomes a problem. So don't restrict yourself because you're afraid of being uncomfortable. You're going to be uncomfortable, if I yield it to all of my issues and all of my pains, I would never get off of the couch. So it's important to figure out where is it really a problem, instead of anticipating that it's going to be a problem. If you move any farther, do it in a safe in a controlled way unloaded or with extremely light load and move that shoulder through a range of motion. Where do you feel it Okay, hurts? Can you move it a little bit farther? Is it getting louder? Or is it staying the same because you have you'll have all of that available range of motion if you use it safely. And, and deliberately and you stay connected to the joint and the muscles and attention and you're not just throwing the weights around or or moving your body carelessly through space. So figure out where the problem actually begins. Not when it begins to warn you that it might be there or not. That's first of all. And then second of all, we whether we use that because we want to procrastinate, we want to use it as an excuse. The fact is that we have way more ability than we give ourselves credit for. Now, when we were children. And we would bank young child, I've got a three year old also and I see her do this. She'll bang her elbow on the table pretty hard, and that'll ruin her whole day. I mean, that's it that that pain is there. She cries about it. She whines about it, you know, it you can see that she plays with it, you know and it doesn't bother her but then somebody's paying attention to her more as time goes on. And she or you or I have banged our elbow X amount of times over the course of our life and over the course of our development, that same impact with the same velocity in the same place in the same tissues, hurts less than less, it doesn't actually hurt less than less, because if we were to put up to a brain scan and take a look at what's going on, your brain is having the very same reaction to it. Now hear me 41 years old as it did when I was two years old, on paper, it looks exactly the same, which changes our perception of that pain. Now, over the course of these 40, ensuing years, there may have been opportunities where I bang my elbow when I was in front of somebody I was trying to impress. So I bury it, I build a layer on top of it, I might be out in public where if I bang my elbow, and I show weakness, or I look like a sissy, that that'll be detrimental to my reputation. So I bury it again. And little by little, we create these layers on top of these, these these sensations, these injuries, where the brain still sees it the same way. It's just the person that's experiencing it is a different person now. So we, we have to get comfortable with the fact of walking it off, so long as it's not going to create greater problems. And again, it's up to the individual to really determine where is that yellow, turn into orange. And then where is it finally red. But if we build a thick enough skin on top of our injuries on top of my sciatica, meisten versus my degenerative arthritis, it's all still there. But I don't give it a voice I do when it's gotten to a particular point. And I'm, whether I'm stressed or I'm tired, and it hurts a little bit more. But the fact is that we could probably work through way more things and we give ourselves credit for, and whether we err on the side of caution, because we're overly cautious, or we err on the side of caution because we're, we're just not motivated enough to care to proceed. The fact remains that we create this bubble that we end up moving within to avoid any sensation of discomfort or pain. And inevitably, what that does is that changes are movement mechanics that changes the length tension relationships with the muscles and the joints that they govern, so on and so forth. And over time, that leads to greater problems. And we see this in the aging population, we see the rounded back, we see the internally rotated shoulders, we see the protruding neck, we see issues in the lumbar spine, because they're trying to accommodate for all of their pains and their injuries, they end up sticking themselves in a very, very small box that eventually you're not able to, you're not able to work your way out of. So take up as much space as you can move through as much space as you can use your mobility as best as you can find a resistance that you can move through space as much as you can and experience the discomfort that accompanies your injuries. But figure out where that line is, where does it actually turn into pain? When are we being overly cautious? And when are we being appropriately cautious, and we'll find that we've got a whole lot more room than we think that we do. Ari Gronich 28:04 That's a it's a good explanation. I know for me, I have I have all kinds of issues but that's why I got into the field to begin with. But one of them is a brain tumor. And when I was about 24 hours when they found it, so I had been treated since I was about 12 before they found it and it's a pituitary causes all kinds of hormone imbalances had to be injected into puberty, breast reduction surgery when I was 14. Wow, weight gain all those kinds of things. So I was an athlete I'm eight years gymnastics eight years. With baseball, martial artist, tennis player long distance cycler I'm an athlete who's gaining weight, gaining weight, gaining weight, gaining weight, right. And so I'm 24 years old, they finally find the tumor and they start drugging me up and when they did that the drugs made it so that it was actually difficult for me to even leave my house the mechanism of choice in there of like I couldn't even sometimes get myself out onto the balcony you know, I could always make an appointment though. I could always keep keep my obligations but as soon as I was done with that obligation back in the house and like hard for me to it was hard for me to get out. And so when I hear you say Okay, so what if I just opened the door? What do you know like so people have these anxieties these these? fears, phobias, Agra phobia I had a friend whose dad was agoraphobic For probably 1520 years, I actually spent a week at his house and I never met him that week, like ever. He was that, wow. So the question becomes the mental side, the chemical side, right? Because chemistry has a lot to do with it. So you have a nutritional background, as well as some of the other things that you have. So let's talk a little bit about how food makes motivation, either easier or less. Right? So how does how to how do we get the chemistry right? So the brain can be right? Or is it the brain before the chemistry or how do they interact with each other, so that motivation, energy, expression of that energy, etc, those kinds of things are really in alignment with the goal and purpose. Matthew Scarfo 31:00 So I've got a few things that I can comment on that with First, I think, in terms of chemistry, if if I could give anybody a single piece of advice that I think would change their lives, and this goes for every single person on this planet, it would be that your mouth isn't made for breathing, your nose is made for breathing, your mouth is an eating and chewing organ and not a breathing organ, and you've got specialized structures within your face. We have an external nose, we have internal sinuses, we've got twists and turns in there which add vertices to the air, our nasal passages produce nitric oxide, which allow us to really change our blood chemistry, and our brain chemistry before we even eat a single thing. So we can go without food for weeks, water for days, air for minutes. So and we and we often breathe in properly, we're made to breathe through our nose, we're made to have higher concentrations of carbon dioxide in our blood than we're taught to have. So we're taught that oxygen is you know, we breathe to get oxygen, which isn't true, we breathe to expel carbon dioxide, we don't breathe to inhale oxygen. So I've done certain tests actually bought a blood oximeter and used it when I ran and push myself to 204 210 beats a minute, which is which is very high performing for me. And sucking wind, I check my blood oxygen, it's 94%, the same as when I'm resting or when I'm sleeping. But the problem is I'm breathing heavy, because I'm trying to expel the waste products of my activity and aerobic activity, which is carbon dioxide. So I think that it starts it really starts there. If we're mouth breathing, and we're chest breathing, and we're panic breathing, then we're always in a state of anxiety. And we're always in a state of stress of fight or flight. And, and there might be the foundation, or at least the first few floors of our anxiety issues is no matter what we eat, no matter what we practice, if we're breathing improperly, we very well could always be in a stress state, which would then precipitate improper eating, proper food choices, impulsive food choices, and so on. So I think that it really all starts with, with breathing with nose breathing, at a calm and relaxed pace, getting used to that sleeping, when your mouth is sleeping with your mouth closed, exercising with your mouth closed, I'm an avid whenever I work out, I'm always a nose breather, even when I have the elevation mask on. I'm always breathing through the nose. It's taken a little bit of practice, but it takes less practice than most people think. Now in terms of diet, if we were to eliminate that from the equation and assume that we're all breathing properly and perfectly in terms of food, there are certain stress inducing foods. And I think that there's probably some that apply to all of us. And then there's some that applied to certain individuals, like we still don't know exactly how, for example, somebody with a gluten sensitivity when they consume gluten that might be buried in a food somewhere that doesn't just affect their digestive system, which is also the house of our immune system, which again, stress response and so on, but it affects it could affect their joints, it could affect their mind state, it can affect them anything. So whether you are allergic to the gluten or or lactose or, or beans or whatever the case is, I think that if it's important to explore and know what kind of sensitivities we have to foods because they manifest themselves in other ways besides just digestive issues. We're also kind of up against the the, the machine that is the food industry or the commercialized food industry. And many people don't realize it but there's a reason Why Starburst or red, yellow, orange, pink. There's a reason why these lollipops are bright and blue and red because these are the colors of fruits and, and good foods for us as they appear in the wild. So they're appealing to a subconscious need that we have and to procure these foods from, you know, 1000s and 1000s of years ago. So they tricked us into eating these foods that are that are terrible for us. The only redeeming quality they have is that they trick the brain into thinking that it's necessary. So therein lies the neurochemical responses, you know, the dopamine kind of leads us up to that event, and then you know, we eat it. And now we've got, you know, the feel good chemicals Russian, let us know that this was a very rewarding and good experience, when in fact, it didn't do anything for us at all except make us sick or or interrupt our functions as they should be. And we, as a culture, we haven't really spoken much about additives and preservatives and artificial colors. And all of these other things we talk mostly in terms of macronutrients. And, and though that's important, a calorie isn't a calorie, your body treats fructose much much different than it treats glucose. And And therein lies the problem because this high fructose corn syrup, devoid of any kind of fiber, or anything like that increases your sugar level, it increases your heart rate, it increases your anxiety responses and increases so much. So in terms of nutrition, and diet, and the things that we could be eating should be eating, in order for us to kind of subdue the natural anxiety that we all have in this modern world. I regret to say my best guess is that it would be pretty bland, fermented foods, organ meats, bone marrow, broths, fibrous fruits and vegetables, you know, zero, absolutely zero sweetened anything. Even if it's stevia doesn't matter. It's just not supposed to be there. And, and relying on the natural sweetness of foods to recalibrate our taste buds, and not overwhelmed, and not to have them overwhelmed with these foods that are 100% sugar. So I think it's important to feed your brain first and foremost, with a balanced diet, and what's a balanced diet that really depends on who you talk to my school, told me that, you know, generally healthful diet is 60% carbs, 20 25% fats, and 15 20% proteins and we need far less protein than we're led to believe. And I think that they're, I don't know, the study is behind it. But I'm sure that that creates some sort of stress. I mean, it creates stress on our, on our kidneys in order to metabolize these things. But, you know, we need for a woman who even wants to build mass, I've always consulted it, you know, point four 2.6 grams per pound of body weight is like, just fine. You don't need to supplement a protein shake when a woman asks me, what kind of protein shake should I have? I said, Why are you drinking a protein shake the whole chances are, you're getting sufficient protein even more than enough protein than you need. Same thing with men bodybuilders, magazines will tell you two to four grams per pound, maybe a gram at most will still get you exactly what you want. But we don't live in a culture of of sufficiency. We live in a culture of excessiveness better, more than not enough. And and I think we're gonna find out eventually that what we thought was not enough before is plenty. So I think just mindful eating, being careful of the things that we're putting in our mouth, and that we're asking our bodies to digest and metabolize and excrete, because some of those things don't excrete depending on the kinds of fish that you eat, the sources that you get them from the heavy metals and so on. So just be mindful of what we're eating, trying to eliminate sugar as best as we can, from our diet, any kind of added sugar, and not being afraid of fat. I mean, fat, fat is generally a good thing as long as it's not hydrogenated fats, if it's a natural fat that occurs in a steak or fish or an avocado like these things are okay. You wouldn't supplement that but but as part of a whole, no, they were designed in a particular way, which would benefit us the most and that's why we consume them. Right. So Ari Gronich 39:19 so here's, here's my, my take, and mostly what you're saying I agree with the high carb thing, there is no essential carbs. There's essential fiber that right, but there's no essential carb that your body is required to have in order to function at an optimal level. Grains In fact, from bread, whatever you have it with grains absorb minerals. So when you're eating the grain if you're eating bread, or for instance, and it's like a whole grain I'm eating whole grains or even Keane wa rice, things like that wheat. They absorb minerals, so when you eat them They absorb when you eat the mineral, like you take in a mineral supplement, and then you eat the food, the mineral supplement does not go into your body, the mineral supplement goes into the food that you just ate, and it's passed right through you instead. And if you saw my body motions, I'm showing passes, right. But if, if, if you eat those kinds of high grains, you literally become mineral deficient. Not only that, but the soil itself is mineral deficient. So the mineral, the grains don't have the mineral content that they used to have anyway. But if you eat meat, you're eating everything that that meet a ate, right? That's why it's important to choose your meat well, protein is absolutely in our culture, you got to make gains, I gotta make gains, right. This is what I hear from my, my, my kid, you know, when he when he was working out and he was in high school is I gotta make gains, right, I got to build up the bulk. And, and so all everything was about was about the protein. So protein, and meats and things are not part of our normal, everyday diet. But berries, things that you hunt and gather are what are part of a natural human diet, if you hunt it, if you can gather it, that is part if you cultivate it, not part of the diet, right. So when you cultivate corn, especially in a field and only corn in that field, and hybridize it so it's got a heavy amount of sugar in it. Because we've hybridized and genetically modified it, not good for you. So I would say I get that at ASM and a lot of people have have put that carb on this pedestal the carbs on the pedestal, but my feeling is fat should be put on a pedestal, good fats should be put on the pedestal pedestal more than the proteins or the the high carbs. Proteins are good because they give you the essential amino acids they give you. And that that could be from spinach or kale or you know, it doesn't have to necessarily be from meat, or fish, or you know, that kind of thing. It could be from any of those other sources. But things like nuts, and nut fats like coconut oil, we all have been hearing about MCT. And the amazing benefits that MCT oil has. But the thing is, we want our fats to be of the high enough quality that it turns our brain on versus turning it off if you're using canola oils, and you know corn oils, and these highly processed vegetable oils and seed oils. Very, very inflammatory. They cause all kinds of inflammatory disorders, right. But if you're eating the omega threes, omega nines, even omega 17, I think is known as B 17. It was cancer one, but different Megas, the good Linoleic acids and things like that. Those are essential for your body. And I think what most people don't understand is our brain is made up of fat and cholesterol. That's what causes it to be. It's exists because of fat and cholesterol. they starve ourselves of fat, we starve ourselves of our thinking mind. And we end up getting all kinds of disorders. And in fact, in endurance athletes, I've been seeing this a lot, they're moving away from the carb loading days, or a competition or before a race or a marathon and starting to fat load. And they're finding their joints are much less, you know, inflamed at the end, they cramp less, there's all kinds of less issues because they're fat loading versus carb loading. So I may or may not be disagreeing with you. I'm just, you know, going based on on what you said, but that would be my take on on it. And just as a general thing, because we brought up gluten. Gluten is a poison. It's a protein and it's a poisonous protein that is in the plant to stop bugs from eating it. So bugs won't eat that plan. That protein is poisonous to them, it will kill them. And so when we eat it, it doesn't matter if you're highly allergic on a top of the scale allergic. Or if you're on the bottom of the scale, as far as a response goes, it's going to cause an inflammatory response no matter what. Now, we have hybridized, and genetically modified our wheat and so forth to have extra gluten. And then we started putting it in everything. I even saw a bottle of water that said gluten free. They had to point that out. But anyway, so just let you know, let's have a little bit of back and forth, that I just said a lot. So what do I think, as an endurance athlete? Matthew Scarfo 45:55 So I think it's important that your audience knows that ever since the agricultural revolution is when our, our health as a society began to decline. It was only after we started growing our own foods that that we began to have problems with food. And let's keep in mind that back when the FDA came out with the recommended daily allowances, that that's not for optimal health RDS, or for disease prevention. So that's the minimum that you should eat. If you want to avoid things like berry berry or rickets, it's not a healthful amount, it is the minimum sufficient amount to keep you healthy. Secondly, back in the whenever it was the turn of the night, or the turn of the 20th century, early 1900s, when the FDA was coming out with, you know how much vitamin E is in a, you know, is in a keratin how much calcium is in spinach, these were things that were grown on, comparatively virgin soils. So to your point, these soils weren't stripped of everything that they would need in order to make a carrot from 1920. a carrot of modern day. So the fact that you know, spinach might have had a certain amount of iron way back in the day, that's not the same soil, we've we've depleted that soil so much, that we have to fertilize it. And what you're getting is a carrot, or spinach or broccoli that looks like broccoli, and tastes like broccoli. But it's not the same broccoli that we were having. So if you're relying on these food shorts for different amounts of your your vitamins and your minerals from certain foods, you you're not eating enough, and that that's probably one of the stronger cases for taking a multi whether you agree with it or not, is that we're not eating the same foods as what we were now I used to take a multi I stopped taking a multi, I kind of go on and off with it. I don't necessarily believe in supplementing individual compounds simply because they're not found that way. In nature, there's a congruence in the symbiosis with all of the vitamins and minerals that we eat. And, and buyer beware, for example, when people are purchasing a multivitamin, you need to make sure that the proportions of certain compounds in there are our proper, right. So So zinc and copper are antagonistic. And one of the things that it's it's a correlation, it's not quite a causation, or at least not yet between low zinc levels and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And what we could do and I grew up, I was diagnosed with that it's a blanket kind of diagnosis for kids that just are hard to manage, I think in a lot of cases. But we had acidic water in our home, we had a blue ring in our tub and a blue ring in our sink. And what that is, is that's elemental copper. I mean, that's, that's the worst kind of copper you could get. That's that and, and oftentimes and cheap vitamins, that's the copper that they put in there, that's the iron that they put in there, these aren't bioavailable things, they're, they're sufficient that I could put them on a label and tell you how much they weigh and how much is in there. But in terms of how much your body can use, it's it's fractional, if any at all. And then you have to take into consideration the, the antagonistic behavior of certain things you might not be getting, you might be actually exceeding more than you're taking in from that particular multivitamin. In terms of carbohydrates, you know, I I agree with you. Now I eat carbohydrates just because I'm a I'm a slave to my own habits and my wife has celiac disease, she was diagnosed she had the biopsy, and we've pretty much taken gluten out of everything in the house just so it's easier for her. But it's what we'll have that really is just a calorie replacement for the for the meal. We have a very big stack of vegetables. We have a couple of servings of meat and then you've got the starch on the side and and you're right and you don't need to eat agricultural alized cardboard hydrates, the ones that are present in the fruits and the vegetables and the tubers naturally occurring, those are going to be in there anyway. And those are accompanied by fiber and other nutrients that make them that make them whole and make them usable. But you know, to your point before about creating an inflammatory response, even if you're not necessarily sensitive to something like gluten, the barrier between the food that's suggesting in our intestines and our bloodstream is one cell thick. It is a single cell thick, and there are certain mechanisms that allow the transportation of, of nutrients into or rather out of our intestines. But when there's an inflammatory response, what used to be neatly packaged cells that created one congruent layer were only these chemical messengers, and transporters could allow things to go back and forth, another creates gaps in between these cells, you get leaky gut syndrome, which creates a whole slew of problems. But what seems to be a reoccurring phrase here is inflammation. And inflammation is the cause of disease. So anything that we can do to eliminate or diminish the amount of inflammation that we that we acquire in response to the things that we eat, and the things that we do and ingest, and so on, the better off that we're going to be overall. You know, what I don't, I don't want to argue with you about the about the 60 to 25 and the 20. Because, honestly, I think that you are right. And in my own practice, when I've got the choice, I do eat more fatty foods before I exercise. And before I work out, and I found I can say this with certainty, that it, it gives me greater endurance. Now, I never got into the keto diet. I know a little bit about it. But I know that the ketone body is a very powerful, it's a very powerful molecule, it's a very powerful thing. And we derive more energy from it than we do from sugar. And it's a longer lasting energy, it takes some time for our body to get accustomed to using it as a sole source of energy. But I do know that sugar is inflammatory. Even in its natural state, it's generally inflammatory. But rarely do we ever find it in its natural state. We've got away with high fructose corn syrup, and now we call it something else. But it's the same exact thing. That's all in an effort Ari Gronich 52:20 for it's called natural sweetener. Right? Right. So when you see no, you know, you see if you see natural sweetener on on the on the label, that's high fructose corn syrup, now they have gotten approval to put that through our FDA, our wonderful, wonderful FDA, they've gotten approval to call it a natural sweetener. So when you see something that says natural, this or natural, that doesn't necessarily mean healthy. Just Just an FYI. Matthew Scarfo 52:55 Right? Right. And when you when you've got the alternative to take something like aspartame, which was originally supposed to be an insecticide, but they found out that it's 800 times sweeter than sugar, and it these small doses, it doesn't kill you. And they begin to put that in GM and this and that. I mean, probably talk days about this. But you know, the occurrence of issues that we see now that I didn't see, even when I was a kid in school, the autism, the celiac disease, the peanut allergies, you know, every kid's got something, and, and it's nobody really wants to take a look at the environment, because that's really what it is. It's, it's what we're feeding our kids, it's what we're subjecting our children to, it's, it's the adaptations that we're expecting our body can already manage these these foods, these foreign substances, these foreign chemicals and compounds, when in fact, it's stressful. And the problems that we experienced from them downstream, I think are only beginning to come to light, this is going to get much, much worse than it is now I've got a number of friends in my peer group that that needed fertility treatments for in order to have kids. That's like common practice anymore. And whether it's either over prescribed, or it's just overly present. Now, there's a reason for that, and it's because of our environment. But yeah, I mean, as far as the carbohydrates go, I I think you're right, I don't think you're right. I know you're right. And I can base that really all on just one fact. And that is if you look at when we started growing our own food, that's when the problems started to happen. I'm a hunter. I and I've had this conversation with with vegetarians and vegans and you know, with all due respect to anybody's eating habits or food preferences, I prefer to eat wild game. And the reason is because these are animals that have lived a happy life. They follow up, they've ran around, they know what those feel good chemicals, feeling. Like when they enter their brain, they got to mate, they got to play. They, they didn't live in filth, where they needed antibiotics just to keep them alive like the cows do. And that's the only reason why cows get into biotics is because they would die in the conditions that we keep them in if they didn't otherwise have. So now this is we're entering deer season up here in New Jersey for for shotgun a muzzleloader. And I prefer to have that meat Well, it's cool. There's not a single animal out there, that's a prey animal that, that dies of old age, they generally die very traumatic death, whether they break a leg and they have to, you know, suffer that until it becomes infected and dire, they get eaten by a pack of coyotes. So natural meats, well harvested meats that are that have eaten a diet, that is exactly what they are supposed to eat is critically important. Corn fed beef is not a good beef. I mean, it's still beef, but it's just like we were talking about with the farming 100 years ago, compared to today, it looks like steak, but your body doesn't treat it the same way it did, you know, it would have a cow 100 years ago. So I think food choices is very important. And it's hard anymore, because the marketing is so strong, and the additives are so strong, they make it so we don't even have to chew our food anymore. It's everything so palatable and an easy to swallow McDonald's, you don't have to chew their food or cheeseburgers. There's issues that when I'd mentioned before, that it's important for us to breathe through our nose, that becomes harder and harder when you've got a palate that is shrinking, because you're not working your jaw muscles to chew the foods that we used to chew. I mean, if you wanted sugar 150 years ago, the only way you could get it was to eat this piece of bamboo, which would be sugar cane, you'd get a ridiculous amount of fiber from it and very little sugar, but your job would still work out it would keep the structures in your face and your nose and then your breathing system conditioned and fit. And we lose that now. And that creates problem more and more problems for us as more and more time goes on. Ari Gronich 57:06 Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when I could chew on a sugar cane like a sliver of sugarcane. And I'm also old enough to remember when you would we would walk through a berry field and the taste of a strawberry or the taste of a blueberry compared to the taste of them now so much richer and more full flavored, because the mineral content was there, because it had all of the things necessary. I think the statistic is if you were to eat, like some broccoli today versus broccoli 50 years ago, the the equivalent value is for every one that was one broccoli, you know thing. You have to eat like 1512 to 15 broccolis to equal the same amount of nutrients as 150 years ago because of the depletion of mineral and nutrient content in the soil. So just as an interesting thing, same thing with an apple, I think it's eight apples equals the equivalent nutritional value of one apple 50 years ago. However, we've hybridized the apples to have not the minerals not the nutrients but sugar. So apples today are Sweeter, sweeter, sweeter and high, high in sugar versus what they were years ago. I don't even drink you know, I don't drink apple juice, orange juice, any any of that kind of stuff anymore because of the amazing sugar content in it. And just as a as a side to that. You know, when we're thinking about the food that we eat, you were talking about the meat and hunting. So I've never been a hunter. I've never been hunting. I grew up in Los Angeles, not really a good a big hunting area. But my my roommate when I lived there. He He said that they attempted in his hometown. I think it was in like Missouri area or Minnesota. I don't remember it was one of the M's and he said that they stopped the hunting license for a couple years or something. They didn't want to have all the you know, the deer killed and hunted so they stopped it for a couple years and what what ended up happening was that the things that the population overgrowth of the animal them all created an issue not with the people or the humans, but they would get sick, they would eat too much of the of the food because there's too many of them, and then they would get sick, they would have all kinds of other issues. And then they ended up dying and disease was starting to spread because of the way in which they were dying. So they reinstated the hunting, in order to make sure that the population was down enough that they weren't having their own internal ecosystem issues. Right. So hunting isn't necessarily, to me, a cruel thing. It's not something that that I don't know if I'd be comfortable with it, just because I'm, it's not my, my nature. But or at least it's not something I've ever done. But just as a side to that, you know, it's like, we have this thing about being civilized, and being in a civilization, and how cruel it is to hunt. But it's supposedly not so cruel, at least for meat eaters, to treat our cows, the way that we've treated them to treat our chickens, the way that we've treated them to treat our livestock in general, putting them in situations where they need to be like they're standing for their entire life in one spot eating food that's not natural to their diet, because when you see grain fed meat, cows don't eat grains, they eat grass, they walk around, they get exercise, they eat grass, that's what they do. And there's a natural cycle to it. That makes it so that they're they're very healthy. When they are in that natural cycle. As soon as you take them out of that natural cycle, you start giving them food, that they're not healthy, that's not healthy, and then you start pumping them full hormones to make them bigger to the point where they can't even hold their own weight in their legs because their muscles haven't been developed because they haven't been walking around. Okay, now, I'm talking to the audience right now, a lot, because I know that you know this. So I just want the audience to really understand what what's the cost, what is the cost of spending a little bit of money on really crappy meat that causes you to have diabetes, cancer, inflammation, heart disease, etc. Versus spending the little bit extra cost or extra money to get grass fed grass finished meat, or wild game that's been hunted, that's lived its life that's been able to roam and work the muscles so that the fat that they produce is the beautiful fat that's really healthy for you. So I'm just saying this because I want the audience to get I'm not an anti vegan anti vegetarian, I practiced veganism for a number of years vegetarian for a number of years raw food diet for a number of years. I'm not against that, and I get the the amazing empathy that they have for the animals that are being factory farmed. But factory farmed, need to go factory farms, whether it's agricultural, or meat, need to go. It's not necessary. How many millions and millions and millions of pounds of meat do we throw away every year? Because of it being diseased because of it being, you know, used in in ways that are unhealthy? You know? I mean, millions of pounds, well, how many cows Can we stop? You know, reading in this way? And how much room could we give them to move around if we stopped wasting it because we're factory farming it Matthew Scarfo 1:04:33 right. Now, granted, I don't think that cow hunting would be extremely exciting. They don't seem to move very fast. Right, right. You know, your cows, they don't seem to move very fast. They don't seem like they're very smart. They're not very camouflage. But, but your points well taken that you know, the reason why cows are given antibiotics is at least back in the middle of the 1900s when They wouldn't be in these factory farms. In New York City, they'd be in a warehouse that was elevated off the ground, they're put in this carousel, they're standing in their own excrement. And they're ill. And the only way that we can keep them alive is to put them on an antibiotic life support. Turns out that when they're on this antibiotic life support that they produce more meat. And now we have to give them hormones this way they produce milk, even when they're not calving. And even when they're not pregnant. That's not the same milk, chemically, and as it is, is if they were nursing a calf with it. So these animals are always under stress, they're always under stress, and they're stressed. That's a hormonal response. And that hormone is present in any of the meat that we eat. Now, not justifying or defending, hunting, but for that matter, the animals that live in the wild, live a happy life as God intended, they're out there doing what you know, with deer and squirrels and rabbits are meant to do. They're not being savagely ripped to pieces by predator animals. They're not, you know, being wounded and hopefully wounded and just left to die. I mean, as a hunter, and this isn't defensive, all hunters out there, we have a commitment. And it's a very strong commitment that it's supposed to be a swift and painless kill. And if it's not guaranteed to be a swift and painless, killed, and we'd let the animal go, and we don't take the shot. Now, there's a, you know, we know this very well, now that, you know, there's always a bad few in every big group. And I'm sure that hunting is no different. But an animal that was harvested from the wild that was eating what it would have wanted to eat that had the chance to raise calves and, and, and have relationships with other animals and experience life. It's a happier animal, it's better meat, we have chickens, actually, at our home, we've got about 30 of them. They're not meat chickens, they're egg chickens, they have an extremely large run an extremely large coop. And we do let them free range daily and the eggs that they produce, compared to the eggs that we get in the store, the shells are almost hard to crack on the animals that we have here. The skin inside of that shell is much thicker, oftentimes the yolk is a much brighter orange. And that's normal. That's not because of nutrients. That's really more from the bioflavonoids that are in the foods that they eat, you can make a chicken's yolk extremely orange if you gave it marigolds, but, but they eat hard shelled exoskeleton bugs and worms leaves and they get to pick what they eat. That's a healthier egg. That's a healthier animal. As opposed to the eggs that you get in the store, which it's about. It's about quantity, it's how many eggs can we get out, or how many things that look like an egg, can we sell as an egg and get our money for and it's it's much different if you can invest in or you've got the opportunity to invest in free reign jugs that are that are sourced from your local community with people that have chickens, you're going to pay a little bit more for them. But you will absolutely notice a difference in taste, a difference in texture, there's a nutrient difference in them as well. It's just, it's just better as close as we can get back to how we were eating 150 years ago and longer is really how we should be eating now. And for many people, it's just a convenience. You know, they don't want to hunt but they'll they'll take a steak from a cow that had its next slit. While it was living in a cage its entire life. They'd rather pay an extra four bucks a steak to pay the middleman to handle the dirty work. But the fact is, is that that that animal was abused and mistreated, and it was it was born to die. It was important to breed it was important to do anything other than to provide for you meat. And once it was able to do that its card was pulled. So for those that are uncomfortable with hunting or eating hunted me, just just think about where you're getting your meat from, you've got better options, there are better options, plenty of mail order places that you can get them from where the animals are humanely treated. And the food is done without antibiotics or without hormones. And we're at a point now where if you look at a carton of milk, and the cow wasn't given antibiotics, there's a promote or given bovine growth hormone. There's a promotion for bovine growth hormone on that package. It says this animal was not given our b, g h. And then right underneath that there's been no significant difference between the milk procured from an animal that was given this hormone in the milk that was not, which is saying that it's okay to drink the milk that was that that's tainted with this stuff. But I don't know about that. I don't believe it. So it's just it's funny how they always get their jabs in and how, you know, the FDA is always It seems as though they have an ulterior motive and a different Yeah, they're in a different agenda, isn't it? Ari Gronich 1:09:52 Yeah, there's actually

Hi, I am here with Kimberly Spencer, she is a certified high performance coach and intuitive life coach, Amazon bestselling author, and international motivational speaker.  Ari Gronich 0:00 Has it occurred to you that the systems we live by are not designed to get results? We pay for procedures instead of outcomes, focusing on emergencies rather than preventing disease and living a healthy lifestyle. For over 25 years, I've taken care of Olympians Paralympians a list actors in fortune 1000 companies, if I do not get results, they do not get results. I realized that while powerful people who control the system want to keep the status quo, if I were to educate the masses, you would demand change. So I'm taking the gloves off and going after the systems as they are. Join me on my mission to create a new tomorrow as I chat with industry experts, elite athletes, thought leaders and government officials about how we activate our vision for a better world. We may agree and we may disagree, but I'm not backing down. I'm Ari Gronich And this is create a new tomorrow podcast. Welcome to another episode of create a new tomorrow. I'm your host, Ari Gronich. And here I have with me is Kimberly Spencer, certified high performance coach and founder of crown yourself.com Welcome to the show Kimberly toning a bit about yourself. Kimberly Spencer 1:23 Thank you so much for having me on re Yeah, I am the certified high performance coach. I'm the founder of crying herself calm, I specifically work with visionary leaders to help them build their empire and stand out authentically and serve serve you with their leadership. And it is my like it is my soul. Like that's like Solas and like the number one and Solas and like soul connection mission, that more good hearted, mission minded, purpose driven, conscious leaders are making more money so that we can seriously transform this planet. That is that is my big mission that because I truly believe that when more good hearted, mission minded leaders are making money that that is what can create the change. And so it's my it's my honor to be able to serve some of the amazing leaders and entrepreneurs that I've been able to help over the past four years. And it's been a very fun ride. Ari Gronich 2:22 Awesome, very cool. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, and what got you to this place. Kimberly Spencer 2:28 So my background was quite varied, it was very much from a place of following my curiosity, and exploration, I grew up with two entrepreneurial parents. So the entrepreneur gene is kind of like in my blood. But I watched my parents, from a very early age, my dad was an addict. And so I saw that struggle between the higher self and the potential of who he could be. And the addictive state of pharmaceutical drugs of non pharmaceutical drugs and of alcohol of all the things. And I saw the ability to recognize someone's potential very early on, and see someone when they're not living into it, or when they're making excuses for it. And I believe that we're kind of blessed with the children that we need to remind us of who we have been that was kind of programmed and stripped away from us. And I was always a very emotional child. I was big emotions, big feelings. And growing up that wasn't really praised. In my house, I saw my dad escape his emotions, my mom would suppress and repress hers. And so he there I was left with all these big emotions and not knowing what to do with them. And so it turned me into two things one a bulimic and to reading and writing in Hollywood, when I was 17, I got my first feature film produced when I was 20. And it was such a fun experience, being able to have that dream and have see my name on the up on the big screen. But I was surprised that when I was at the premiere, I was actually only 90% fulfilled. And it was at that time that two weeks later, after the premiere, I got a notification from a friend of my friend who came to the premiere because when you write a movie, you get extra tickets. And so she her son had come to the premiere and had seen the film and it changed his life based on the story. And the story was a very simple story. That was about a young kid who wants to fit in with the cool crowd. And he adapts himself into the high flying hard partying world of freestyle motocross to do so I didn't know anything about motocross at the time, I just researched it. Like most people are like wait, crowd yourself and freestyle motocross. I know. But that that experience of learning that something that I created, had transformed somebody's life and the story that they were living in And to some and made them want to be better and recognize their own possibility and their own potential. I was like that I want to do that I want to do more of that. At the time, in order to support myself in Hollywood, I was also transforming my own story with with my body and what was possible for my body because I became a Pilates instructor simultaneously. So I started out teaching Pilates, to support myself in my career in entertainment. And it was there that I saw that the power of the mindset, and I was surrounded by different types of clients training 10 hours a day, seeing all these different types of bodies. And it didn't matter whether somebody was technically overweight or technically thin, or technically ate healthy or technically didn't, what mattered was how they thought about their bodies. And what matters was how they thought. And those thoughts were reflected in, in their actions and in their habits. And it showed me the power of the mindset. And it was from that perspective, and that like little aha that I had, that I was able to shift out of being a bulimic into an entirely new identity of being transformed. I don't believe I'm recovered, I believe I'm transformed. Because the idea of going back to that old identity is so horrific that I would never want to go back. And so it was through that through Pilates, I was able to transform and eventually built, went into having my own private Pilates studio, I own an e commerce business where I was also transforming people's stories about the possibilities for their back pain. We were selling it bringing it back pain device to market. And then three weeks before I got married, my business partner told me he wanted to buy me out. And I was like, Okay, well, three months before I got married, and then we signed the buyout agreement three weeks before I walked down the aisle. I was on my honeymoon, wondering like, what the heck do I do now? And I was like, I love the body. I love writing. I love creating I love helping people. I've loved transforming stories. And I leapt off the couch and I said crown yourself and my husband's like, what's that? And I said, I don't know. But but it's the it's it's a holistic leadership. It's stepping into holistically claiming your power and reining your life and making choices from that empowered state. Problem was is that I was going through that buyout process made me it was the first time I'd ever had my integrity called into check or my capabilities called them to check and so I was very, very stuck in the dungeon of doubt. And so for a year and a half, I dabbled in my business. I did all the things. I was always busy, I was always working on my computer, but I wasn't actually making any money. I was simultaneously teaching out of my Pilates studio and feeling really unfulfilled. And then I found out I was pregnant. And then that just changed the game. Within two weeks, I was driving to Vegas to go get certified in NLP timeline therapy and hypnosis because I knew that the problem laid with my mindset. And I saw that the parallel was between that and it was the same parallel that I had with my bank account. And my business was the same issues that I was struggling with 10 years ago with my body image and believe me, so I said, Well, I'd switched from being an actual bulimic to being more of a financial and business bulimic. And so I said, I know I've already shifted this once with just mindset alone, I can do it again. And I did and four years later, I've had the privilege of coaching some amazing, extraordinary leaders, and it has been a fun ride and now we live in the Gold Coast of Australia during a pandemic. Ari Gronich 8:26 That is, that's fascinating. How is it in Australia during the pandemic? I mean, I hear that they've been pretty shut down. Is that correct? Kimberly Spencer 8:37 That was Melbourne. So Melbourne, Australia and not Melbourne, where you are. And the Gold Coast where I live, it's back to normal like and my son can go to pretender. He can go hug children. We don't have any mask ordinances. Melbourne was the one that was really struggling. There's like no cases in Australia In Australia, right. There's very, very few and there's been no cases in Queensland for the past, like two months. So festivals are coming back. So I keep on trying to inspire my American compadres to be like, come on, it's like it's going to it's going to turn around, I promise you things will come back. Like I just saw a beer festival the other weekend. Like Ari Gronich 9:26 that's awesome. So, you know, let's kind of unpack some of the things that you said one of the things that you said that was fascinating to me is the bulimic for your body is blamed for your finances. which basically is a good metaphor for life in general where you know, the quantum theory of how you do anything is how you do everything. And so, tell us about that a little bit more kind of dig deep into what it is that made that pattern repeat itself after you had thought That you already took care of the pattern. Yeah. Kimberly Spencer 10:05 The the pattern really stemmed from that deeper subconscious belief of enoughness. And from deserving, and from, I mean, if you think of bulimia, I mean, what bulimia was, it was an emotional thing for me. So I didn't know how to process my emotions. So I would shove them down, repress them and then explode. And that was what I did with food. And so with finances and money, that's that was similar to what I was doing, I would take money and I would receive it I had, I was okay with making sales, but then it would just explode, and then it would explode beyond. And we got me into a nice portion of debt, it would explode beyond the capacity of what I consumed. And it was seeing that parallel of the beliefs of being enough and the emotions that were attached to it, so there's, there's an emotion that comes with receiving, but there's also an emotion that comes from having and nourishing. So a lot of the entrepreneurs that I work with, now, they have like money in money out like there's like there's the bills, they, they're able to do make sales and they're receiving money, but then it's immediately money out, there's no profit, there's no profit margin. And there's very little for them to take home personally. And so for me, what I saw was this, that there's an energy that comes around having money having food having having the ability to have something nourish you. And those that energy of having it comes down to a perception of deserving. And that perception of deserving. We all have what is called adjust world bias. And I've seen that high achievers in specific. They, they have this, like the just world bias, we'll see it played out in society where we'll see something that happens to somebody that's not fair. And so our toddler brains are like, we want we want to be able to like, understand it. So we'll blame the woman who gets raped because she was probably wearing a really short skirt and was asking for it because of her wardrobe. And we'll say ridiculous things like that, to try to make this on this illogical thing makes sense to us to make this world seen, quote unquote, fair. And so with high achievers, what I see is high achievers, and I'm a card carrying one have been since I was like five high achievers, we tended to put the blame on ourselves. So what happens when we're faced with this just world bias that we all have, or something happens to us it's not fair, that that feels funky. And that we feel like we might we feel like we must have deserved it, we must have deserved this bad thing to have happened to us, we must have deserved these bad feelings. And so we kind of punish ourselves and put ourselves down because of these emotions of what we perceive we deserve. And it really messes with that perception of what is it that we deserve. And so we try to earn our way to getting to what it is that we deserve. When really the concept of deserving is grace, it's being able to, to accept and receive grace. And it's being able to receive a gift and allow for that that ability to receive gifts from others, whether it's a gift of somebody's business, or the gift of somebody's money, but being able to receive that and then so it's it's, it's earned after it's deserved, like the actions that we take, we already deserve it because it was placed in our hearts, we already deserve it. Because we have that dream. We already deserve it because it's a desire that and and a vision that we've had, which means that somewhere out there in the quantum realm, it is possible for us to achieve it. So we already deserve it because we brought it we thought of it into our reality. Now, how do we go about taking the action steps to get us to that point where we are it actually is in our present reality. Ari Gronich 14:09 Gotcha. So let's, let's say what's the difference between deserve and entitlement? Hmm, Kimberly Spencer 14:17 good question. So, entitlement really comes from the ego is what I found is is an egoic belief of an eye like almost like an either or, like I see a lot of fear based beliefs of an entitlement is kind of like the perception that it's it's more of an egoic perception, it's more of an intention versus the intention of of deserving its grace combined with the desire to then put something out into the world to serve with it. That's what I've found is for me, that's just what I've been able to, to navigate with, with my own perceptions of deserving is desert, like everything that I desire to do or create in this world is ultimately to be of service in some way. Versus entitlement is kind of like an entitlement is also I see this reflected in like, Oh, I should have this now, I should have this. Well, you don't. So what's going on in the present moment that we can actually take ownership of entitlement is a lot of times here with so many shoulds and supposed to, like, I'm supposed to be farther along by now. I should have, you know, a family were like, why don't I have this right now? versus? Let's look at where we are. What are the beliefs that are that have me where I'm at right now? And then moving forward from that space, and then moving forward from the present? Because if you're moving forward from should you're not even at the starting line? You're on the outskirts looking in if like, Oh, I should be running that race? Did you get to mile one, did you cross the starting line? like did you get there, you have to go through all the steps to be able to run it, you're not actually in the race yet. Ari Gronich 16:14 Okay, so let's take it to one other word that came to my mind as you were talking is burden. There, there's a thing and I call it the healers burden, or the spiritual burden, where money seems to elude the people who are wanting to give the most. And I don't know that it's a belief necessarily, like money is bad, because I think that spiritual people really get the idea of an exchange of energy. But it's the burden of if I charged them too much, then I will be a burden to them rather than a benefit. Or if, if I need something, then I'm a burden to the people around me that rather than being a benefit to them, in some some respect, or even, you know, being giving a gift is a gift, right? But we rob people of being able to give to us, because we feel like that would be a burden. So let's kind of unpack that, because that was what popped up when you were talking. Kimberly Spencer 17:26 Yeah. So what what came up for me is, is ownership. And that is your own personal ownership is you are allowed to take 100% ownership for your life and your results. You're not allowed to take 10% of anybody else's ownership. You're not like you're not allowed to take the the burden of somebody else and say, Oh, well, like let me take ownership over that and then claim that as my burden. That's that's that's overcompensation of ownership. And it's actually it actually leads people into a spiral of of guilt, like massive guilt, versus taking ownership for like I have, these are the prices that I charge, these are the services that I offer. I call this this one money, mothering, when I see it show up at for entrepreneurs, is it's not my job to be that person's financial advisor for what is best for their life, it is my job to open the door to give them the possibility to give them the opportunity to say hey, if and if they see the value in it, then awesome. I have seen the value in programs that I'm like, I see the value in that not going to be investing in that right now. Versus I've seen the value in some programs where I'm like, I see the value in that I don't quite have the money for it. Like that's how I was when I first signed up for NLP timeline therapy, I saw the value in it. And then I felt this like desire that I knew that I would be able to figure it out, I needed some new tools. And so I knew that making that additional investment going and additional $5,000 into the already 30 5000s of dollars of debt that I was in going and that additional, I would be able to pull myself back out faster and farther with those tools and without them. And so that made the investment worthwhile. So when I see Oh, go ahead. Ari Gronich 19:22 So that's one level of burden. The other level of burden is I need help. And I can't ask for help because then I would be a burden. Hmm. Yeah, Kimberly Spencer 19:33 I see that one a lot with the with high achievers have the fear of asking for help asking for support. And that also comes down to a lot of ego because the ego is is either it's saying like I'm either too good, or I'm either like nothing and there's no gray area. It's an either or. So instead, how can you be perceive asking for support asking for help to actually be an act of service for somebody else. Because sometimes people are more excited to serve and to, to help and to lift each other up, I've just found this personally, then, then this perception of Oh, if I ask somebody, then they're gonna, they're gonna, I'm going to be a burden or it's going to, like, if you if you take ownership, and you set foundational ground rules in place, and you also hold those energetic boundaries and standards and say, like, you know, let me know, if I'm asking too much, let me know if I'm, if I've crossed the line at some point, like, let me know, otherwise, I'm going to keep asking for that support, or for that help to be able to get that support in that help. And if it's the other person's responsibility to be able to say, you know, this is actually going into what my paid programs do, or, you know, this is actually something that I normally charge for, it's the other person's responsibility to hold that boundary for themselves. Ari Gronich 21:11 Awesome. Give me a difference between weakness and vulnerability. Hmm. Kimberly Spencer 21:19 Sure, good question. Sorry, I like how you get really specific with the language. So vulnerability, I believe vulnerability is such an asset. But there is vulnerability when vulnerability when you get caught up in your own story, that can get to the point of where it becomes a weakness. So I'm all about I share very openly and vulnerably, about many of the things that I've experienced and gone through, but it's not from the place of either look at me and how bad or how great or my life is. And the weakness, aspect. weakness. It's, it's an internal compass thing. Like it's, that's something that you only you will know, is if you're dancing on vulnerability to the being into the weakness, like, so I will have to give an example. If I have something that I'm in process with, like, I'm feeling something, I feel an emotion, I'll be vulnerable with saying, you know, I'm feeling this thing. I don't know what it is that I'm processing, I don't know what it is, and I'm working through I know that I'm working through something. But I'll be vulnerable with sharing that a weakness for me would be repressing it suppressing it and pretending like it didn't exist, and then like, having it explode, and, and having me explode and be like, Oh, I'm fine. Everything's fine. No, no, no, no, it's not. So being able to say vulnerably, hey, I'm struggling with this, I'm experiencing this, let me go into this space that's coming. That's vulnerability from a place of strength. When it's a weakness or a trigger, that's something that I like to notice, like, I like to recognize when that is coming from a place of weakness, or that is coming from a fear of powerlessness or a fear of, or a trigger, or it's, it's hitting something that's really raw and personal. That's where I actually like write it down, like, Oh, this is this is one of my weaknesses. This is one of my triggers, and being self aware enough to know where that gauge is Ari Gronich 23:24 awesome. I had a conversation once with a guy down the street from me, and he was a military man. And he said, that you can't find pretty much anybody like on the block, right? That could put on a 70 pound pack and march for miles and miles and miles, because they just don't have the health and the wherewithal to do that. And so therefore, it becomes a weaker country, the less our health is. And yet our health care system is really designed not to make people well, but to keep them being treated for being sick. It's, you know, we call it the sick care system versus the health care system. You're a lot in that wellness sphere, especially having having owned a Pilates studio, and so on. So what do you think needs to happen in the world really, because it this is a global crisis, not just an American crisis, but what do you think needs to happen in the world to get people's mindsets on prevention versus reaction to health to whatever it is that's going on in them because we've become what I what I consider to be a very reactive society, versus a proactive society. You know, that works with prevention and making sure they're healthy people. For you get sick, etc, those kinds of things. Kimberly Spencer 25:03 I think we have to stop our addiction with fear. I think that that is the greater addiction that we have right now. I mean, you can get the end it prevents us from actually creatively thinking of solutions are finding something. So it puts us in a reactive state, it puts us in fight or flight. And so it's removing yourself from those environments or people that are stimulating and continuously stimulating that fear. And so for me, I, for me, I personally don't watch the news. I don't watch the news. I haven't watched the news and for years, sometimes, like it's on when I'm at the gym, but, and I watch it now from a very different perspective where I'm like, it's just like, death, trophy, drama, murder. And it's all like, it's all fear, fear, fear, you listen to it enough, and suddenly your Migdal is going on overdrive. And so it's really is pulling back from that addiction to fear because it prevents us from actually living with vision and, and and solution mindedness. Because we find solutions creatively in a different part of the brain. That's not the amygdala. So we actually have to physically move the location of where we are thinking in our brain, and it's not going to happen if we're if our amygdala is going fight or flight fight or flight fight or flight fight or flight. Right. And what happens is, is also our nervous system, Oh, go ahead. Ari Gronich 26:34 Yeah, let's just define megillah for those who don't know that, it's the reptile brain. So that's for that, you know, because we don't want to just to industry terms, so just kind of give a explanation of what that is, and what it what its function is. Kimberly Spencer 26:53 So our amygdala is our it's the, it's the reptile brain, it's, it's the one that's got us on fight or flight. So it's, it is built into our biology. And it serves a purpose if we're running away from a saber toothed tiger, it really serves like, and what happens is, is to our nervous system is when we face that stress, when we face that stress, that fear, that suddenly is like I'm in danger, our brain cannot recognize whether it's like fully physical danger, or emotional danger, it's the same, it registers the same. And so what happens is, when our body goes into a stressful state, or blood becomes more thicker, so that if we were, you know, attacked by a saber toothed tiger, then our blood will be able to coagulate faster, we get a bad taste and a bad odor. Actually, if you get like, you can get bad taste in your mouth, or you can actually like start smelling you missed it like if you may start smelling a bit more you can it causes your esophagus to basically not your peristalsis in your in your, in your gut, it's stops really digesting because you don't need to digest your food if you're going to be the food. So you got to run, if your body tries to do everything that it can to store the energy so that you can run away in that fight or flight space. But what happens is, is when our nervous systems are in this fight or flight response, eventually, our sympathetic nervous system can only run so far and so fast. And eventually then our parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest part of our nervous system, which you can actually physically train through Pilates, through yoga through Tai Chi, through just even you can train it through just some deep breathing with an inhale and a longer exhale. It felt so good, like, literally take three breaths like that, and you will already have activated your parasympathetic nervous system. But your parasympathetic nervous system, it's your rest and digest. And then it also has this other function, it's called freeze. And you'll see this in the wild. When an animal it thinks that death is imminent. And immediately it'll just drop, it'll just completely drop, it'll go lifeless, because just in case the predator chooses not to devour it's meal at that point, it gives that that animal playing dead, a few extra minutes to be able to then regain play dead and then maybe go to safety again, maybe go back into that fight or flight, if it's not consumed. That freeze also produces a rush of endorphins in our body that so that if we're, you know, pierced by a saber toothed Tiger that we're not actually going to feel as much pain. But what happens is, is when we're in this, it's a traumatic cycle for our nervous system. A fight or flight and then freeze is it. It we lose our natural oscillatory rhythm that can happen. That is part of nature nature oscillates, we have day and tonight we have ultradian rhythms that flow is about every 90 minutes. We just have that natural ultradian rhythm throughout the day. Our our heartbeat, it oscillates, it's not flatlining, flatlining is bad. So, when we, our nervous system is supposed to oscillate to the fight or flight is not a bad thing, it's necessary. Like if you're if you're you're fighting the fight or flight gets stimulated, if you're, you know, going to go kick, that goal, that winning goal and your soccer team match, it gets activated when you're going to give that presentation and it gives you that like, little boost of energy to give give a little bit more energy to that, that presentation in the board meeting or a zoom meeting now. But that so it's necessary, but it's also necessary for us to have the oscillation back into the rest and digest. And so when we're in this space of, of constant fear stimulation, it's spinning our nervous system into a space of constant and consistent trauma where we're in fight flight freeze. And that cycle, that traumatic cycle can actually cause depression, it can cause heightened anxiety can cause chronic fatigue and cause all sorts of emotional and physical problems in the body. And so I think the biggest thing to our healthcare system is stopping the addiction of fear, and the perpetuation of continuous fear and instead perpetuating hope and solution focus. Ari Gronich 31:25 Gotcha. So, you know, fear in the body, according to Chinese medicine is kind of gut right? It's not, it's not like worry would be in the kidneys. And anger is in the liver. But fear is in the gut, when when somebody is scared of something, or they have a gut instinct to go that way instead of that way. It's that signal saying, Oh, I feel it here. I've got to react to that. And it's a natural response. Yeah. Right. So how do individuals regulate that in themselves, some tips and tricks, and then also, how do we get society back on a track where we're not antagonizing that response to the point where there is no oscillation, it's just kind of like this graph that just keeps going up and up and up, and up and up. And there's an explosion, right. Kimberly Spencer 32:35 So to start with, some tips and tricks are to practice any form of exercise or breathing that activates the parasympathetic nervous system, Pilates, yoga, tai chi, chi gong, these are all forms of exercise, that when you're doing the exercise, they have a, your your, the breath is a key element in all of them. And you can take that breath. And this is actually how I went from being an exercise induced asthmatic at a time where I couldn't run a mile to save my life, to now being able to have run six marathons, because I took the breath that I learned from Pilates, and I applied it into running. So now I activate my parasympathetic nervous system, even as I'm in a sympathetic, doing a sympathetic form of exercise, which is the long distance running, well running to start, and then it eventually kicks into that parasympathetic, because the gotcha has initially the sprinting is more fight or flight, activating. So doing those forms of exercise, taking moments in the day to breathe, taking moments in the day to practice that. That sympathetic activation where you take a longer inhale, if you count on your hand, you can count in your hand for the count of five, for an inhale for five, and then do an eight to 10 count for an exhale, within literally like three to five breaths, you will feel a sense of peace, a sense of rest, a sense of, of release, I also do and I'm getting certified in breath work, which is used specifically for trauma release. So and that is a tool that I found to be super powerful, where you're using the power of activating sympathetic activate activation breath, and then being able to translate and oscillate back into parasympathetic breath so that you're able to actually reprogram that and release the trauma out of your body and in and just release it. Because what happens is our body remembers this, like, the stuff that we've been through our mind will is very kind. And our subconscious mind will repress things that we're not fully ready or that are too overwhelming emotionally for us to process. But our body does remember and so that's why, even if like you see somebody and you suddenly get this like gut instinct and your body reacts and you're like, this doesn't make sense, this person was just like walking right past me. But you get this like gut response in your body, your body will respond because your body's still emotionally recognizes that your body still sees it. So working doing body work is really key. Yeah, Ari Gronich 35:10 we call it the issues that are in the tissues. And I do some pretty intense, highly unusual deep tissue emotional release bodywork, but I do it with that includes breathwork, one of my close friends is, was one of the five founders of rebirthing, which is an amazing breathwork technique that was developed by Leonard war, back in the 60s. And so I've had a lot of experience with that. But I've added an element that's highly controversial, which is psychedelics, to process. And I find that you can get so many more of the issues out of the tissues than say talk therapy alone, or, or hypnosis or just body work without without that intention. But you know, that's a it's a really powerful technique. breathwork in general, is very powerful to calm your system. I know that the Navy SEALs us box breath, which is five seconds in hold for five seconds, five seconds out, hold for five seconds, five seconds in, right. So it's it's literally done, that's what they use in the middle of war time, or battle, because it calms that adrenal response in the system. You know, it's pretty cool. So how about how about society at Whole, as a whole? You know, what are some of the things that you've seen that you think that society should think about doing government's, you know, the people who make policies and things like that, in order to help people's immune system help people's adrenal glands and help them be more home? And what's the effect that you think that that'll have if we got back to some of that more connected, breathing, connected way of being versus always in flight or fight or flight? Mm hmm. Kimberly Spencer 37:20 So there's a really powerful question that I think everyone should ask themselves. And that's what if I'm wrong? So often, our cognitive bias is going to want to just find that information that just backs up what we already think we know, versus allowing ourselves to question and explore and learn and grow. And so what if, what if I'm wrong thinking, you know, about COVID? In this one way, or thinking about mass in this one way? What if I don't like allowing for and taking, taking the emotion out of the question of like, taking being wrong personally, because that's, there's a concept from the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, that is one of my favorite books on the planet. It's a very simple principle. It's just asking, Are you above the line or below the line. And if you're above the line, then you're operating from a place of openness from learning from growth, if you're below the line, you're operating from a desire to be either right, or a fear of being wrong. And so often, a lot of our society, I think a lot of the problems in society right now are coming from that either desire to be right, or that desperate fear of being wrong of our ego from our egos. So allowing ourselves to ask that question of like, what if I'm wrong about this perception of you know, what we're doing in our country? Or what if I'm wrong about the COVID vaccine? Or what if I'm wrong about this, consuming this fast food do on a daily basis? Like, what if I'm, what if I, what if these habits, what if I'm wrong? And then what if I change them? Like, what if I just experimented, what if I just allowed yourself to get curious, I think that that's something that we've lost. I think that's something that kind of our systemic, or Victorian age educational system is kind of drilled out of us Is this love of curiosity, versus a learning what to learn rather than how to learn? And that ability to to question and get curious and ask those questions that may, you know, stimulate some different answers may stimulate some answers that not everyone is comfortable with. But at least it's opening up a dialogue instead of holding on to these two polar opposites that are thus just constantly repelling each other. But they're that they're they're repelling each other but also they're attracting each other because they they're the exact Same Day, like, the desire to be right and the fear of being wrong. Same thing. Ari Gronich 40:06 Right? So you and I both have children. And my seven year old is very, very curious. And he asks a lot of questions. And sometimes I want to answer the questions. And sometimes I don't want to answer the questions because I'm a parent. And I have that, right. So instead of telling him something about him asking the question, I asked him, Why do you want to know that? What's, what's the information that concerns you in this particular thing, especially when he's asking question about something else? Or somebody else? Or, you know, that has nothing to do with him? It's just his way. And he always says to me, I'm just curious, dad. I'm curious. And when was the last time you heard an adult? Say that? was just if you're in the audience, when was the last time you remember saying that? I'm just curious. I just want to know, I? It's not very often right. You're, I'm sure your child does the same thing. Right? Kimberly Spencer 41:15 Yeah, I mean, he's a little, he's a little younger at three. So he's, he's figuring his way out in the world. And it's such a beautiful, like, he inspires me so much every day, because it's like, he has such a unique personality. And I look at like, you know, if he were blessed to any other person to be a parent, they may want to program some of that personality out of him. Like not every dad would be okay with their son saying they want glitter nail polish at three, to match with his girlfriend that he has, which he has to like, but I'm like, that's, that's cool with us, like we have like, that's cool. Let him express himself. He likes Clary. He knows that mommy likes glitter. Like, that's my favorite color. So but that's, it's allowing him to have that freedom of expression and that freedom to really find out who he is. I'm not trying to define who he is, he certainly is a leader, I can definitely tell you that. He has his opinions of how things are done. But that's it's it's a beautiful quality to be able to see the the Curiosity I watched him play. And I look at how often as adults, so often, we take things so seriously. And we're stuck in this, like, it's serious because it's business or because it's money or because it's, you know, our relationship, and it has to be this serious thing. Whereas really, like when you learn the most, it's when you're a kid, it's when you're a toddler, and you're learning through play. And you're like, when I watched my son learn how to walk. I got to see this beautiful, this beautiful experience of failure multiple times. And him not shaming himself for it, him not getting upset with himself for it. him just going Oh, okay. And he surrounded himself with people were that was normal, because everybody else around him was walking on two legs. So how often are we doing that where we're making curiosity and play seem normal? Or are we surrounding ourselves with people who make being very serious, and this is a professional matter, and we put these labels and have to be this buttoned up thing? To end that's how we should be doing life in business and whatever, versus allowing for that sense of play, allowing for that curiosity that comes with play and the discovery process that comes with it. And I think that that discovery process of just asking yourself removing the ego, and asking yourself, what if I'm wrong? Then awesome. It allows for you to play with other options and then to see okay, is that one that I like? Is that one that feels good for me? Is that one that feels right for my body? Is that one that feels right for my family? Or is that one one that doesn't feel a lot like when I when we chose to stay in Australia in in March in the middle of a pandemic? I had many of my family come at me saying that it was foolish and stupid and I was being reckless and I said you know, okay, what if I'm wrong about this decision, and I checked in with my gut and my gut said with 100% certainty staying is the best choice that we could make. And my husband is able to now fulfill his dream and go to chef school. My son can be an actual school and hug children and not have to wear a mask like you would at you know be in back in Los Angeles because I don't know how you get a toddler to wear a mask like my girlfriend is able to do it back in California alone. Girl praises because like, my kid would be like, Oh, no, this is not happening. So but it's, it's like it was a it was a decision that was based on my assessment from my gut and knowing with certainty and trust lie in my own body. And I think that that's something that as a leader that we can cultivate is where to certainty and trust, like we know where fear is, but where to certainty and trust lie in your body. When you feel certainty and trust when you feel that deep inner knowing that this is the right decision that I need to make for for me, and then being okay with asking yourself what if it goes wrong? What if it like looking, allowing yourself to dance with the plan A to dance to dance with some additional strategy of like, Okay, if this is not the right choice, what if this, what if this goes wrong, playing with that, but removing the ego, removing the identity of having it be a failure thing? I know that was a very long winded way of answering Ari Gronich 45:58 it. So it's all it's all good. You know, I like to brag about my son a little bit, he's got five businesses, he's seven years old. And he had we took him out of the school, and are homeschooling him, because even the virtual school, he wasn't getting the, you know, the kind of attention needed. They were doing, working with the class that was inside the school, as well as those that were online. So their attention was smooth. And, and one day, his teacher asked him, you know, or asked, in general, like how everybody was feeling how everybody was doing. And he said, I'm frustrated and angry. And the teacher said, Well, why are you frustrated and angry? This is a seven year old mind you who's saying these words, right? He said, I have five businesses, and you're not teaching me how to work with any of them. And so, you know, think about that, and I go, Okay, so you know, I mean, he's been around his mom and and an eye for his whole life. And she's a business consultant, and so on. And we've taken him to business trainings his entire life since he was born. And so his perspective on life is totally different than somebody who hasn't had that experience. But my question to you would be, when are you going to get your kid into his own business? Because you know, he's three he's fallen behind. Kimberly Spencer 47:35 Oh, he already has three currently here. Oh, he just added another location to his virtual restaurateurs restaurants. So he's, he's got two locations, one in surfers and one he has an ice cream truck he has he's got he's got seven currently his his profit margin is invisible money that he then gives back to me, which he knows where the money comes from. So but he's, he's like, instilling that spirit is so essential, like, and I love the fact that we've taken our son to business conferences, since he was born pretty much like he was in utero when I was going through NLP. So I'd say technically, he's a certified coach as well. Ari Gronich 48:22 Absolutely, he's got it born and bred inside of him. And he's gonna have the epigenetics of experiencing that on a regular basis from you. So, you know, it'll be embedded, I believe that the children are our future, right. And I say that as because it's a song. But what I mean by that is, I have a lot of hope for maybe not this neck, this generation, but our kids generation, create a world that's different. And I wanted to ask you a question, because you're in Australia, and you're from the US and so many businesses are starting to go Nomad. And my question to you is, is the new world order so to speak, or trying to have a one world government or One World Without Borders, so to speak? Is that such an awful thing? Because it seems to have such a huge reaction to it. But I'm looking at the world in the generation that's coming up and people aren't going to be stuck in a building for 40 years in one chair and one building desk, you know, with the same people for the next 40 years, people are starting to travel and become nomadic business people and the whole border issue. It's just very fascinating to me, because you're a marketing person. And so you know, you have the ability to travel the world and explore and I believe that exploring the world is what brings us a new mentality versus our little echo chambers, right? So let's kind of unpack a little bit of I like solutions to the world. So how do we create a new world that has all those nomadic travelers where the borders aren't so like, you can't come in and you can't come in, and we don't like you, you know, like, everywhere I've ever gone, they always have what I call the you know, because it's the US I called the Mexicans, right? Because we always say the Mexicans are coming in and taking our jobs. When I was in Greece, it was the Algerians, the algae are coming in, or the Albanians, they were coming in and taking our jobs. Every country has those people, every country has that. Yeah, every country has that. And so to me, Australia, Kimberly Spencer 50:47 they have it here too, like I one of our friends is in Australia is a winemaker and saw the He's like, you know, Australian teenagers, they don't want the Australian, because we can't literally cannot find an Australian worker to do the work that the Vietnamese will do, or that an Indian worker will come over here and do because they'll get it done faster, like an Australian will don't, they may get it done. But he just said that he's not finding that he finds that the immigrants are actually more desirous of those those harder labor jobs in some ways. So as far as the digital world is concerned, I mean, I don't know if it's such a bad thing, but I do. But I do know that any sort of new world, there has to be a foundation of the values. And I think that's the difference in all the countries currently they have it China has very different values in the US, Australia has different values in the US, Ari Gronich 51:51 isn't it? Is it the people that have the different values or just the government? Because I think Kimberly Spencer 51:57 I think the people to really, and it's not that one country's values are good or bad or the other, but it's just they're different. So like, let's say America, people value, very highly freedom. Whereas if you have another country, that very values very highly safety, that's going to be a conflict of values. If if you're if you're seeing for people who feel like their freedom is being taken away for the sake of safety, versus people who feel like they would rather they would give their freedom away for the sake of safety. So that's, that's a, that's a mismatch of values. So it would come down to how do you organize 7 billion people and to having aligned values? Ari Gronich 52:45 Right, so I don't think that, okay, so I'm just gonna put this out there, I don't think that we need to have individuals with the exact same values, I think, yeah, well can experience safety, and some people can experience you know, freedom. And they can choose that. here's, here's where that question really comes from, though. I was in Israel, and I found that the people of Palestine and the people who were in that country lived amongst the Israelis, very happily, they, you know, different religions, different belief systems, different everything, and yet they lived pretty comfortably together. Always that small faction that is pretty well government or, or a centralized leader that is trying to cause the havoc, right, whether it's Israel, government, or Palestine, government or US government, I have always found when I really dig deep and look at things, that the government has an agenda that is completely different than the people. And the people pretty much all want the same things, which is they want their families to be safe. They want to have the ability and to be able to express themselves freely. And so the safety and freedom is in every one of us not. Obviously, it's more in some than, you know, it's like balancing thing, but I don't find that it's entire countries that want the same thing. It's the government of the country that says this is what's important to us, despite what might be important to the people that they're governing. Kimberly Spencer 54:40 Yeah, I could definitely agree with that. I've definitely seen that play out in both America. I've seen it play out in other countries to have the narrative that is being told the and for me, seeing hypocrisy in in the narrative. The people in the government in different places in the government, not really abiding by It or Not really, ultimately believing it or there being some sort of agenda. Like I could definitely say that they're like, it's like, I remember when I was 10, I wanted to be president. And now there is not a job that you like, I could want less. Because the, the idea of creating this identity, that is the sellable identity that you can sell, sell them that that's what it is. It's a persuasion. Our elections are a persuasion battle. And that's what sales is. persuade people to buy into. And it's fascinating because I see these messages. They're very similar. But it's it's the the more chunked up you go, the greater agreement that we're all going to get, like, we all can agree that we all want hope we all want change. We all want safety. We all want freedom. We all want greatness. And the more you chunk down into the details, it's definitely there. You can see that's where people start to split. And that's where divisiveness happens. And I'm just yeah, I'm not the biggest. I definitely am. I am aware that there are some people who are in power that want to stay in power. And that's something to to be aware of, and that there are some people who are making a lot of money right now, who wants to continue making a lot of money right now. And I love making money. But it's looking at what is what is the intention? And what is the what will be negotiated for that. And that's why I think that as more good hearted mission minded, service based leaders start to make more money. That is when we can definitely see a change in in the world being more accepting and more empowering of each other and empowering of each other's health and empowering of, of each other's choices. Rather than I'm right. You're wrong. Ari Gronich 57:33 Yeah, you know, it's funny, I posted something on a site recently. And it was just me literally saying, I'm really interested in having a party for the holidays with this group of people, this kind of party is like fire dancers and, you know, some Burning Man is kind of party at my house. And I was like, would anybody be interested in that? And the post, eventually taken down after about 130, some odd comments, some people yes. And some people just were like, calling me names, like, Oh, you believe in eugenics and you're trying to kill people and your was a plan a pan demick rat or something like that a disease out in like, thinking that this is what I'm what I'm about, I'm like, you have no idea who I am. I didn't even say anything. Like I'm having a party. I was like, I'm really interested in this. Would anybody else be interested in it too? You know, and it was just fascinating the experience of going through such intensity of belief. And yet, no one asked me a question of what it was that I was thinking, like, Are there going to be masks? while you're in, you know, like, you're an adult, you can wear one or not, you know, it's at my house. I don't have the restrictions of a business right as just like, but there wasn't a whole lot of curiosity, there was just a lot of blame and a lot of shaming and a lot of, you know, tearing down, and I found it really interesting because in the name of that particular group is the word love. And the I found that the people really weren't expressing the love, you know. So it was just really fascinating and interesting to me, how closed minded and inside of a bubble and unwilling to hear even a fact or to acknowledge that effect is a fact. You know, like a mask that you wear, like a cloth mask, I think it filters to something like 10 microns, and a viruses point oh one microns. Approximately, and so one is smaller than the other, and it can probably go through and it's not going to, you know, that mask isn't going to probably do much for you. And so, you know, that's like a fact and people can't get grasp the fact that that's the fact. There's no opinion there. There's no possible other explanation there. It's just, that's the fact there's, I didn't put a commentary, Kimberly Spencer 1:00:24 right? It's the emotion, their emotion didn't agree with your fact. So that's and that's the thing is when we're when we're driven and charged by these emotions of fear, and, and blame and guilt and shame, when we're charged by these, and the internet is a very, very safe place to be charged by emotion. Because you're not going to get punched in the face. Like you're most likely someone is, you wouldn't people are saying things that they wouldn't actually say to your face, like my husband, because he's has a bit of a following in and some fan base in the anime and voiceover world. He's heard some really gnarly things said, via Twitter, about him like him, and unlike, you know, like, people wishing the horrible things and I was like, they don't even know him. They like if they, it would some it's something that somebody wouldn't have enough courage probably to come up and say due to someone's face. And and people are very easy to be offended. Right now. I think we have a culture that's that's not really allowing for communication, where we're more interested in speaking, than in listening. And I think that our communication breakdown is something that is a massive issue. Culturally, that is something that does need to be addressed as to how to communicate, how do we actually communicate? How do we communicate from a place of empathy? How do we communicate and connect? How do we communicate and disagree with someone, like, I've been friends with people that I have disagreed with my entire life, and I love them dearly. And we have differing opinions, and that's okay. And I know that like they would, they would come to bat for me, or they would come help me if I needed it. Like, and we disagree on things. And that's okay. But we've gotten into this very like with, especially with online, and especially with social media platforms being the only place that we can really gather as a giant group right now. We've gotten very tribal about our communication. And if somebody doesn't, is not a part of this, like communication tribe of all the things that we believe and all the emotions that we share, then we excommunicate them, then they're out of our tribe, and then we just cancel like this canceled culture is, is what is hurting our country and the world. And it's, it's canceling out someone's opinion, just because they disagree with you. I mean, at some point, somebody is going to like, it's the same as canceling somebody's opinion, because you like minty toothpaste, and they like strawberry. Like, that's an opinion. It's that that's just as much a belief as any other belief. Ari Gronich 1:03:23 It's all about the watermelon. Unknown Speaker 1:03:28 That's not my jam. I'm a minty toothpaste, kind of girl. Ari Gronich 1:03:32 My son, we get him the Tom's watermelon. Anyway, let's get on to more happy talk like marketing tips, entrepreneurship, success, you know, those kinds of things. We don't have a whole lot of time left. But I wanted you to be able to get into that. Because, like you said, your passion is really all about helping heart centered leaders become wealthy. So how do you do that? Kimberly Spencer 1:04:02 Well, it starts with vision. And the foundation of your empire is really the values that you stand on. And for, for me, I work with a lot of former people pleasers who have really good hearts, and who are and who really want to serve, but they have struggled with people pleasing or the desire to be needed. And so they make their business an entity in which they are needed that then is their business is then a vessel that is controlling them, which is going directly against the reason why they started their business, which was freedom. So getting very clear on the foundational values of your business of what is it that you want to create? What is it that that you bring to the table? What is it that really sets the foundation and when you're clear on your values, these values will guide who your customers are, who you're who your team is that you hire. It's an it sounds like I had one client, she was like, she'd been running a successful business. And she wanted to get her million dollar year in a year. And she, she was like, she's like the value stuff. This is like life coaching 101, Kim and I was like, just go with me on this, just trust me, turned out to be one of the most transformational parts of her business because she realized she was in a business that was not in a line, she was in a partnership that was not in alignment with her highest values for why she created the business. And she eventually had to buy a her partner. And then she ended up hiring two team members, which I was so proud of hired two team members in a pandemic and a recession created jobs because of her values. Because her vet, she led with her values first. And the people that she attracted, bought into those values. They said, Yes, I want to be a part of this company. Because this company stands for something being these wishy washy companies that don't stand for anything when people are like, well, you're just another like what influencer on Instagram, like, what do you stand for, like posting, like, here's an inspirational quote that I found on a Lululemon bag, that's not really building a transactional business, versus having very clear cut ties and being able to enunciate and repeat and consistently preach those values, like my primary value is ownership, ownership period. That is how it is, is in our value statement. In crowd yourself, it's ownership period of take ownership for our actions, we take ownership for our lives, we let our customers take ownership, because sometimes, you will come up into a situation where maybe a customer wants a refund, and that refund is outside of the refund guarantee. And it's your job as a leader to say no, these are these were the boundaries, it's your job as a customer to take ownership of the commitment that you made to participate in this program. And to abide by these rules. If you don't like them, I'm sorry. But you need to take ownership for your actions just as much like that, that in it of itself. It's tough love, but it's what we're we're kind of missing a lot. And that's something that I love bringing to the table. And fortunately, I don't have to do that very often. Because I attract a lot of clients that have ownership is a very high value. But setting that foundation and then being able to communicate that found that those values, being able to preach them being able to preach them in your marketing in your internal messaging, and being able to constantly reiterate that those are the values that you stand for. And you can also have things that you stand against, like I'm very clear that I stand against negative Nellies and Debbie downers. And like I can get on the topic that I'm like about certain things that I disagree with, but I'm not going to pull myself down into like a negative state, because I have such immense hope for the world and such and I believe was such possibility, I cannot be a mother and think that I'm not leaving a great world for my son, like I that is not within my realm of belief system, that I will even allow that this world will not be amazing for my child. And I will work my hardest to be able to make it so into a trap serve other people to help them grow their businesses so that they can also help me in this mission. Ari Gronich 1:08:28 That's pretty awesome. And, you know, I appreciate that. I do I do have an issue though, with with your industry. Kimberly Spencer 1:08:38 Yes, oh, I have a few too. So go for it. Ari Gronich 1:08:42 industry has turned from has basically turned into what I would say is the same as the healthcare industry. There, the incentives that they've created for themselves are procedure based versus results based, which means that you, you know, you're paying for, okay, there's 30 posts per month, there's, you know, two different channels, and that's what we're gonna do, or we're gonna run Facebook ads for you for this long. We're gonna put 10 of 10 ads up, okay, did they get results? Did they do anything? Are they you know, like, the marketing industry has seen in my eyes has felt like they've moved into just a really lack of integrity space. And, and that is kind of that's kind of where the healthcare industry is. It's just lack of integrity. They do procedures that are not necessary in order to create more billing versus to create more health. Right? If we change the incentives to results based, then we're going to change the outcomes. So that people can actually get what they're looking for. So how do you ensure that this is a loaded? Question? How do you ensure that you're getting results for the people rather than just doing a bunch of stuff? Kimberly Spencer 1:10:11 Oh, for me, it's constant. Like I'm in constant dialogue with my private clients on what they're doing. And they have action steps that they need. Like, it's, it's, it's a result of, they also have to show up as well. So it's both parties taking ownership. And it's my job to hold the the bill to hold the standard of what they're working toward, if they say, this is what I want to work toward, that I hold that standard, like my one client, he joked with me a year ago, he said, if you can be if you can help me get this plane, then then then I'll know that you were worth it. And I was like, Challenge accepted. And so within a year, he ended up buying his dream plane. And being able to park it literally writes out outside of his office. And I and he was like, I didn't even think that that was a reality. And to think that that was possible. And I was like I did, because you said so you said this is the level that you want to be playing at. So I'm going to write I'm going to challenge you to rise into who it is that you need to become. And I'm going to have some uncomfortable conversations. And we did that challenge them to rise into that next level same, and it's happened with every single client of mine that I will deliver the challenges that they needed by saying not exactly, I won't say exactly what they want to always hear. And so in the marketing it like in the marketing

Hi, I am here with Kimberly Spencer, she is a certified high-performance coach and intuitive life coach, Amazon bestselling author, and international motivational speaker. Ari Gronich 0:07 Welcome to another episode of create a new tomorrow. I'm your host, Ari, Gronich. And here I have with me is Kimberly Spencer's, certified high performance coach and founder of crown yourself.com. Welcome to the show. Kimberly. Tony, a bit about yourself. Kimberly Spencer 0:25 Thank you so much for having me on re Yeah, I am the certified high performance coach. I'm the founder of crown yourself.com. I specifically work with visionary leaders to help them build their empire and stand out authentically and serve, serve you with their leadership. Ari Gronich 0:43 Awesome, very cool. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and what got you to this place. Kimberly Spencer 0:50 So my background was quite varied. It was very much from a place of following my curiosity, and exploration, I grew up with two entrepreneurial parents. So the entrepreneur gene is kind of like in my blood. But I watched my parents, from a very early age, my dad was an addict. And so I saw that struggle between the higher self and the potential of who he could be, and the addictive state of pharmaceutical drugs of non pharmaceutical drugs and of alcohol and all the things. And I saw the ability to recognize someone's potential very early on, and see someone when they're not living into it, or when they're making excuses for it. And I believe that we're kind of blessed with the children that we need to remind us of who we have been that was kind of programmed and stripped away from us. And I was always a very emotional child. I was big emotions, big feelings. And growing up that wasn't really praised. In my house, I saw my dad escape his emotions, my mom would suppress and repress hers. And so he there I was left with all these big emotions and not knowing what to do with them. And so it turned me into two things one a bulimic and to doing in writing in Hollywood, when I was 17, I got my first feature film produced when I was 20. And it was such a fun experience, being able to have that dream and have seen my name on the up on the big screen. But I was surprised at when I was at the premiere, I was actually only 90% fulfilled. And it was at that time that two weeks later, after the premiere, I got a notification from a friend of my friend who came to the premiere because when you write a movie, you get extra tickets. And so she and her son had come to the premiere and had seen the film and it changed his life based on the story. And the story was a very simple story. That was about a young kid who wants to fit in with the cool crowd. And he adapts himself into the high flying hard partying world of freestyle motocross to do so I didn't know anything about motocross at the time, I just researched it. Like most people are like, Wait crowned yourself and freestyle motocross, I know. But that that experience of learning that something that I created, had transformed somebody's life and the story that they were living in, into some and made them want to be better and recognize their own possibility and their own potential. I was like that, I want to do that. I want to do more of that. At the time, in order to support myself in Hollywood, I was also transforming my own story with with my body and what was possible for my body because I became a Pilates instructor simultaneously. So I started out teaching Pilates, to support myself and my career and entertainment. And it was there that I saw that the power of the mindset, and I was surrounded by different types of clients training 10 hours a day, seeing all these different types of bodies. And it didn't matter whether somebody was technically overweight or technically thin or technically ate healthy or technically didn't, what mattered was how they thought about their bodies. And what matters was how they thought and those thoughts were reflected in, in their actions and in their habits. Ari Gronich 4:09 That is, that's fascinating. How is it in Australia during the pandemic? I mean, I hear that they've been pretty shut down. Is that correct? Kimberly Spencer 4:20 That was Melbourne. So Melbourne, Australia and that Melbourne where you are and the Gold Coast where I live, it's back to normal like and my son can go to pretender. He can go hug children. We don't have any mask ordinances. Melbourne was the one that was really struggling. There's like no cases in Australia In Australia, right. There's very, very few and there's been no cases in Queensland for the past, like two months. So festivals are coming back. So I keep on trying to inspire my American compadres to be like, come on. It's like it's going to it's going to turn around, I promise you, things will come back. Like, I just saw a beer festival the other weekend. Like, Ari Gronich 5:09 that's awesome. So, you know, let's kind of unpack some of the things that you said, one of the things that you said that was fascinating to me is the bulimic for your body is blaming for your finances, which basically, is a good metaphor for life in general, where, you know, the quantum theory of how you do anything, is how you do everything. And so tell us about that a little bit more kind of dig deep into what it is that made that pattern repeat itself, after you had thought that you already took care of the pattern. Yeah. Kimberly Spencer 5:47 The the pattern really stemmed from that deeper subconscious belief of enoughness. And from deserving, and from, I mean, if you think of bulimia, I mean, what bulimia was, it was an emotional thing for me. So I didn't know how to process my emotions. So I would shove them down, repress them and then explode. And that was what I did with food. And so with finances and money, that's that was similar to what I was doing, I would take money, and I would receive it I had, I was okay with making sales, but then it would just explode, and then it would explode beyond. And we got me into a nice portion of debt, it would explode beyond the capacity of what I consumed. And it was seeing that parallel of the beliefs of being enough and the emotions that were attached to it. So there's, there's an emotion that comes with receiving, but there's also an emotion that comes from having and nourishing. So a lot of the entrepreneurs that I work with now, they have like money in money out, like there's like there's the bills that they they're able to do make sales and they're receiving money, but then it's immediately money out, there's no profit, there's no profit margin. And there's very little for them to take home personally. Ari Gronich 7:06 Gotcha. So let's, let's say, what's the difference between deserve and entitlement? Hmm, Kimberly Spencer 7:14 good question. So, entitlement really comes from the ego is what I found is is an egoic belief of an eye like almost like an IRA, or, like I see a lot of fear based beliefs of an entitlement is kind of like the perception that it's, it's more of an egoic perception, it's more of an intention versus the intention of of deserving its grace combined with the desire to then put something out into the world to serve with it. That's what I found is for me, that's just what I've been able to, to navigate with, with my own perceptions of deserving is desert, like everything that I desire to do or create in this world is ultimately to be of service in some way. Versus entitlement is kind of like an entitlement is also I see this reflected in like, Oh, I should have this now. I should have this. Well, you don't. So what's going on in the present moment that we can actually take ownership of entitlement is a lot of times here with so many shoulds and supposed to, like I'm supposed to be farther along by now. I should have, you know, a family were like, why don't I have this right now? versus let's look at where we are, what are the beliefs that are that have me where I'm at right now. And then moving forward from that space and then moving forward from the present? Because if you're moving forward from should you're not even at the starting line, you're on the outskirts looking in, it's like, oh, I should be running that race. Did you get to mile one, did you cross the starting line? like did you get there? You have to go through all the steps to be able to run it, you're not actually in the race yet. Ari Gronich 9:11 Okay, so let's take it to one other word that came to my mind as you as you were talking is burden. There, there's a thing and I call it the healers burden or the spiritual burden, where money seems to elude the people who are wanting to give the most. And I don't know that it's a belief necessarily like money is bad because I think that spiritual people really get the idea of an exchange of energy. But it's the burden of if I charge them too much, then I will be a burden to them rather than a benefit. Or, if, if I need something, then I'm a burden to the people around That rather than being a benefit to them in some, some respect or even, you know, being giving a gift is a gift, right? But we rob people of being able to give to us, because we feel like that would be a burden. So let's kind of unpack that, because that was what popped up when you were talking. Yeah. Kimberly Spencer 10:24 So what what came up for me is, is ownership. And that is, your own personal ownership is you are allowed to take 100% ownership for your life and your results. You're not allowed to take 10% of anybody else's ownership. You're not like, you're not allowed to take the the burden of somebody else and say, Oh, well, like, let me take ownership over that and then claim that as my burden, that's that's that's overcompensation of ownership. And it's actually it actually leads people into a spiral of of guilt, like massive guilt, versus taking ownership for like I have, these are the prices that I charge, these are the services that I offer. I call this this one money, mothering, when I see it show up and for entrepreneurs, is, it's not my job to be that person's financial advisor for what is best for their life, it is my job to open the door, to give them the possibility to give them the opportunity to say, hey, if if they see the value in it, then awesome, I have seen the value in programs that I'm like, I see the value in that. Not going to be investing in that right now. Versus I've seen the value in some programs where I'm like, I see the value in that I don't quite have the money for it. Like that's how I was when I first signed up for NLP timeline therapy, I saw the value in it. And then I felt this like desire that I knew that I would be able to figure it out, I needed some new tools. And so I knew that making that additional investment going and additional $5,000 into the already 30 5000s of dollars of debt that I was in going in that additional, I would be able to pull myself back out faster and farther with those tools and without them. And so that made the investment worthwhile. Ari Gronich 12:17 Absolutely. So why don't you give us about three or four actionable steps, actionable tips, tricks, to becoming the influencer, that you really want to be in life. Kimberly Spencer 12:31 So step one, take ownership, you are not your results, you are the cause of your results. So so often, it's very easy for us to identify with our results, the number on a scale the number in our bank balance room, instead, those numbers are just a reflection of the actions that we've taken. So instead of getting down on yourself, or like, Oh, I don't have this or Oh, I I gained five pounds, or Oh, I did this thing. Or Oh, my social media numbers dropped or whatever it is. Look at the actual action steps of like, what did you do this past week that caused that? Look at those action steps and or what did you not do that you had done in the past? Because that will give you that will give you a very clear tactile playbook as far as like what works, what doesn't work for what you're looking to grow. Another tip is to question what you know, quite just ask yourself the question question what you know, whether that's a belief, because everything we're we're working with our beliefs every single day, and they're so unconscious to us. So say, for example, something is just as silly and as simple as like, a belief like, Oh, this, the client turned me down. So that means that you know, I struggle with sales, does it necessarily? Is it possible that maybe that client wasn't the right client for you? And if so, what else could be possible? Is it possible that maybe your messaging is a little off so that you're not attracting the right quiet clients? So allow yourself to ask better questions, ask questions that provide instead of saying, like, why is this happening to me? Ask questions that provide moving forward, like what if this happened to you or what, what and how questions will always produce more strategy and forward thinking than why questions? Ari Gronich 14:34 Yeah, I'm one of my mentors used to say, How can it get any better than this? Whether it was horrible. Yep. Really, really good. That question still works. How can it get any better than this? Yep. Kimberly Spencer 14:52 And I learned this one from my mentor. It was how is this the best thing that ever happened to you? No matter how awesome It was or the worst. I mean, because and when you look back, because hindsight is not 2020 hindsight, it's an asshole, like hindsight, because you're looking back with the tools and the resources that you have, now that you didn't know when you were making those initial decisions. So, in hindsight, it's not really 2020. So allow yourself to ask those questions that can that can that can lead to greater change? Ari Gronich 15:26 It is hindsight is 2020. If 2020 is this year, because we've had an asshole of the year 2020 was not what Kimberly Spencer 15:42 2020 definitely allowed for some pretty powerful perspective shifts, and then my last one would definitely be Watch your language. Watch what you're saying yourself. Just Just watch. Are you saying you can't a lot? Are you saying you'll try a lot? These are words in your vocabulary that imply a lot of effort, sometimes, but not necessarily a lot of results. are you? How are you speaking to yourself? How do you think about a problem? When you think about a problem? Do you immediately think, Oh, I can't or Oh, is that's too hard? Or do you think? Oh, heck yeah. Like I can figure this out? I'm gonna figure this out. Watch your language observe, like an anthropologist, and you will have a lot more perspective as to how you are communicating with yourself to produce the results that that you want. Awesome. Yeah, my Ari Gronich 16:31 son is checking out the Star Wars world. He's watching the Mandalorian right now with I guess, baby Yoda. And you know that there is no dry. Yeah, whole thing. And so I've been working on because obviously, we always say I'm trying to do this. I'm doing you know, but I've been working on doing my best. I'll do my best. And so yeah, we'll try. Just because that whole, I will do my best is an action. And try doesn't exist. Like, you can't pick a quarter off somebody's hand because either you do or you don't. So it doesn't really exist. Kimberly Spencer 17:16 And implies a lot of effort, though. And sometimes that effort makes people feel good, but or feel feel that necessary social guilt that they feel is required to feel, but doesn't actually produce results. Ari Gronich 17:28 So how can people get ahold of you if they'd like to work with you? Kimberly Spencer 17:33 So you can get a hold of me at Crownyourself.com super simple. And you can also email info@Crownyourself.com and I am on all the socials. You can find me at Crown yourself now. Ari Gronich 17:44 Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. This has been a great episode. I hope you took dubious notes and made it something that you can actually take with you and action upon do today because we always want to create a new tomorrow today. Thank you so much. I'm your host, Ari gronich, and we'll see you next time.