Podcast appearances and mentions of Christopher Lewis

This is a special musical presentation of Above All sung by Christopher Lewis at Faith Lutheran Chuch in Okemos, Michigan.

In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had a heartfelt and enlightening discussion with Kevin Lavelle, co-founder and CEO of Harbor. Kevin shared his experiences and reflections on raising two healthy children—an 8-year-old son and a 6-year-old daughter—while managing the demands of a thriving career. Kevin emphasized the importance of being present for his children despite the time constraints of being an entrepreneur. He has found fulfillment in volunteering as a soccer coach for his son and accompanying his daughter to gymnastics. His philosophy of being "appropriately selfish" underscored the necessity of self-care to be effective in caring for one's family. The Fleeting Nature of Childhood Both Kevin and our host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, resonate on how quickly time passes with young children. Recounting poignant moments like the birth of his son and profound moments in his entrepreneurial journey, Kevin appreciated the urgency of cherishing every moment with family. He shared a personal anecdote about working on a term sheet in the delivery room, highlighting the blend of work and personal life that many modern parents experience. This understanding deepened after a personal loss—his wife's mother—which reinforced the irreplaceable value of family time. Dr. Lewis echoed this sentiment, encouraging fathers to prioritize building strong relationships with their children over work commitments. Challenges of Modern Parenting Kevin tackled the complex challenge of raising respectful and capable children in today's world. He discussed the necessity of discipline, the influence of external factors such as peers and media, and the struggle of maintaining different parenting standards than others. Kevin and his wife take pride in their children's respectful behavior in public, yet they find themselves constantly correcting behaviors influenced by their environments. Dr. Lewis and Kevin also explored the concept of “deprogramming,” or correcting behaviors developed when children are outside the home. This underscores the dynamic landscape parents must navigate to maintain their values. Promoting Healthier Families Through Better Sleep A significant portion of the podcast focused on Kevin's venture, Harbor, which aims to improve parental well-being through better sleep. Inspired by his own experience with sleep deprivation, Kevin developed a product integrating professional guidance and innovative technology. The system offers a reliable baby monitoring solution, avoiding common issues with existing products, and introduces a concept of a remote night nanny service. This service is designed to be affordable and leverages professionally trained nurses to help parents manage nighttime challenges, ensuring better sleep for all family members. Fatherhood's Essential Bonds Kevin concluded by sharing his views on fatherhood—emphasizing a connection, love, and support as the bedrock of raising well-rounded children. He credited his own parents, his wife, and his children as his inspiration, and he offered advice to fellow fathers: Enjoy spending time with your children and cherish the fleeting nature of childhood. Parents today face numerous challenges, but as Kevin's journey illustrates, with mindfulness, appropriate self-care, and innovative solutions, the joys of parenting can indeed be balanced with professional success. For those seeking additional support, the podcast encourages engagement with resources like the Fatherhood Insider and the Dads with Daughters community. For Fathers, By Fathers: A Beacon of Support Dads with Daughters remains committed to helping fathers navigate the beautiful complexities of raising daughters to be strong, independent women. Tune in for more inspiring stories and practical advice from fathers like Kevin Lavelle.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being on this journey with you. You and I are walking on this path to help our daughters to be those amazing women that we want them to be as they get into their adult years, and it's a process. It's definitely a process that we walk through to be able to be that dad that we wanna be and to be engaged and to be present and to be there for our daughters as they get older. And you don't have to walk that alone. That's why this podcast exists. It's here to help you to walk alongside other fathers that are either going through the process right now, have gone through the process, or other individuals that have resources that can help you again to be that dad that you wanna be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that are fathering in different ways. And today, we got another great guest. Kevin Lovell is with us today, and Kevin is the cofounder and CEO of Harbour. It is a company that we're gonna learn more about today. But I love their tagline, we create happier parents and healthier families one restful night at a time. And how many of you remember, especially those young first few years when you felt like a zombie? I'm just going to put it plainly, and you felt like you were not getting any sleep, and probably you weren't getting a lot of sleep. But we're going to talk about this venture that he has been on for the last few years and what he's doing. But first 1st and foremost, we're gonna learn about him as a dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for being here. Kevin Lavelle [00:02:01]: Thank you. A great opportunity. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, Kevin, it's my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. And I know you've got 2 kids. We're gonna focus on your daughter today, but I know you've got a son as well. You got an 8 year old son and a 6 year old daughter. So you had your son first. Now I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Kevin Lavelle [00:02:26]: Really fun memory. My my wife and I, our son was a little over I don't know. He was maybe 16 months old when we found out we were going to have another child, and we both did that thing. And and I think we meant it. Then we said, you know, whether it's a boy or a girl, it doesn't matter. We're just gonna be so happy that, you know, have another. And to each their own, I wasn't into a big gender reveal party, but I did think it would be fun to learn together. And so we had her doctor email the results to someone on my team at Mizzen and Maine, and I asked him to go get flowers, you know, pink for a girl, blue for a boy, and put them in our garage so that when I came home, I was traveling, I could bring the flowers covered in a trash bag into the house and we could look at them together because my wife loves flowers. Kevin Lavelle [00:03:14]: That was the way that we were gonna learn together. And right as I was about to pull into the garage, I just had this overwhelming thought, god, I hope it's a girl. And, you know, I didn't I hadn't said anything. And right as I went to pick the flowers up in our garage, they basically kind of fell open, and I saw it was pink. And I was just overcome with joy, and I had to pretend that I didn't know. But I walked in and I opened it up, and my my wife was, absolutely overjoyed as well. And at the time, my my first company was an apparel company, so my my colleague had also put a pink shirt in there, one of our pink shirts as a company. So that was a fun way to tie that together. Kevin Lavelle [00:03:54]: And shortly after she learned it was a girl, she said, I really wanted it to be a girl. And I was like, I did too. And by the way, I found out in the garage. And so, a very fond memory, not just learning that it was going to be a girl and and, you know, knowing that we now had a son and a daughter, but, a very memorable time in our lives. And it was a very rough pregnancy for my wife. And I don't know how true this is or an old wives tale that, you know, when it's a girl, they they suck all the pretty and all the life out of you because they're they're bringing it into themselves. And we were joking because it was a much rougher pregnancy with my daughter than my son. So we we we kind of felt it might have been a girl. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:30]: Now I talk to a lot of dads, and a lot of the fathers talk about the fact that they are that there is fear going into being a father to a daughter. Whether found or unfound, it's there. So as you think about the years that you've had with your daughter thus far and you think about your own experiences, what's been your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Kevin Lavelle [00:04:53]: The most direct fear as she gets older, women are more vulnerable in society and all of history than men. That's just the nature of humanity and the nature of life. And so, higher fear that she could have something terrible happen to her than to my son. Although, as parents in an ever crazier and changing world, certainly, the fear exists, for both of them. But my focus, and my wife and I have the same belief, is help our kids there's a phrase, prepare the child for the road and not the road for the child. And I see it so often, especially in some of the schools that we have been in. Whether it's parents or teachers or both, they want to make sure that everything is perfect for their child rather than, how do I make my child resilient and capable of addressing whatever it is that life will bring to them. And so, everything that we can do to make them more resilient and just prepared and understand the risks that exist in the world while not being afraid of the world. Kevin Lavelle [00:05:52]: You could hide out real easily and miss out on a lot of the wonderful things that life has to offer. And and we want them to face the world with head held high and and know what they're capable of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]: Now you're a busy guy. You're a CEO, entrepreneur. You have been involved with a couple of ventures and a couple of companies in your time as a father. And it not only takes time, effort, but it takes balance. So talk to me about what you've had to do to be able to balance all that you're doing in starting and creating a new company, but also in trying to be that engaged father that you wanna be. Kevin Lavelle [00:06:30]: There are lots of people much more smarter and accomplished than me than that probably have lots of specific tips and tricks. But I'll say the thing that has resonated or or stuck with me the most is accepting that I will never get it all done. And I could work round the clock and miss out on life in front of me. We lost my wife's mother now about a decade ago. And that was very young to lose her. And just understanding that life is very short and very precious. And so don't miss out on don't miss out on what's in front of you. And the age old adage, the nights are long, especially when it comes to sleeplessness in those early years, but the years are short. Kevin Lavelle [00:07:10]: And I had quite a few people say that to me when my kids were, you know, 6, 9 months old. And you're not sleeping. And it is a level of exhaustion. Even if your kids are doing well sleeping through the night, it's just so all consuming and difficult and everything is new and stressful. Sometimes, when people tell that to you in that time of life, you're like, thanks. That's super helpful. I'm barely making it in a given day. But just continuing to come back to how fortunate we are. Kevin Lavelle [00:07:35]: We have 2 healthy kids. That is in and of itself a miracle. And then, prioritizing as much as I can. I've been volunteer soccer coach for my son, taking my daughter to her gymnastics classes, and just trying to soak up the time with them because it's moving very quickly. And there's never going to be enough hours in the day to do all the things that I want to do. But making sure that when I'm with them, try to be as as present as possible. I could talk about this for hours, but those would be the biggest things that that really stand out to me. And then, I think I'd also just add, with that said, I heard a Naval Ravikant years ago podcast with somebody was saying that he does a good job of, I think in his own words, he said being appropriately selfish. Kevin Lavelle [00:08:18]: And it comes down to this analogy of put your own oxygen mask on first. If you're not sleeping and eating and taking care of your body and your mind, then you can't take care of your family. You can't be there for them. You can't be a leader. And so, I think some people end up losing sight of that and forget that they still need to have some fun. They still need to take care of themselves. They need to get sleep. Then they need to be able to sit down and read a book or chat with friends. Kevin Lavelle [00:08:44]: And and you it is very easy to lose sight of that, especially in the days of of of young kids. And ultimately, looking at some of my friends whose kids are a bit older, and they're starting to adjust to the fact that they don't spend much time with their kids anymore even though they still live at home. And so that window of time is is very short. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:02]: It is very short. And as your kids get older, you look back and say, dang it. Because, hopefully, you have taken the time to be able to build those really strong relationships, spent the time, and not focus on work or not focus on the things that you think are important at the time to be able to provide for your family, but what you come to find. And I see that even though I've been a very engaged father throughout my entire kids' lives. But as you get into the teenage years and they start pulling away, and you're not able to have as many opportunities to be able to connect and engage on a regular basis, you treasure the moments that you do have to be able to create those opportunities and have those opportunities. And they look and feel a little bit different, But you definitely want to grab them, hold them, and keep doing those things with them when they give you that opening to do it. Now I asked you about if there were any things that you were afraid of and fear in that regard. But being a parent is not always easy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:07]: We just talked about and we'll talk more about the fact of sleep and the importance of sleep. But it's not always easy to be a father to a son, a father to a daughter. What would you say has been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter? Kevin Lavelle [00:10:21]: If I had to sum it up, I think overall, I would pick up 2 different angles to this. And I can hone in on it being daughter specific and also being a father specific. It's not specifically daughter related, but it is very much a central struggle to being a parent. And it's something that I see, I don't say this on a high horse, but it's something I see a lot of other parents neglect. And I can see it coming back to bite them, which is raising good, capable kids who are respectful and that you want to spend time with is there's a pretty significant amount of time that is frustrating and you have to be, you have to be the parent. You have to be the adult. You have to be the rule enforcer. You have to constantly give feedback and it's frustrating and it's challenging. Kevin Lavelle [00:11:03]: But when you don't do that, each passing day, week, month, and year, it's harder to raise good, respectful kids that are capable and, you know, you want to spend time with. Jordan Peterson, I think it was in his 12 Rules For Life, talked about you don't let your kids do things that make you like them less because you love them more than anyone else in the world. And if you let their bad behavior go, their obnoxious behavior, even annoying tendencies, if you don't help them correct those, well, guess what the rest of the world's gonna do? They're not really gonna like them either. They're not gonna want to engage with them. They're not gonna want to be friends with them. They're not gonna wanna help them, mentor them, etcetera. And so I think about this a lot, especially when I have those frustrating conversations or interactions that I have to work very hard to help them grow and flourish. And that means I'm bearing a lot of the brunt of that so that they, in the rest of the world, have people like them and want to be around them. Kevin Lavelle [00:12:01]: And one of the things that my wife and I are most proud of on an ongoing basis is when people are around our kids, they are genuinely surprised at how wonderful they are to be around. They're very respectful. We can go to very nice restaurants with them without an iPad. And they do great. And that I don't know how many times we went to a restaurant where it wasn't awesome before it started to be good. And now, it's great. And so, you know, I think with that, that is not necessarily daughter specific. I'll go with now daughter specific. Kevin Lavelle [00:12:33]: And the other key piece here is you don't raise your kids in a vacuum. And our kids go to school with other kids whose parents are fine with different approaches to language and respect and electronics and vanity and spending. And there's a when our kids spend time with certain kids, they come home with very annoying or inappropriate kind of phrases or responses. And it's getting a little bit better because they know what, they tend to understand more of what's right and wrong and what is and isn't acceptable. But when they are in school all day or they spend time with certain kids, they come home with things that we have to then work to correct. And it's not a huge problem. But, you know, when you send your kids out into the world, you have to remember they're out in the world without you. And that's why it's so important to build those innate characteristics. Kevin Lavelle [00:13:25]: And especially on the little girl front, some parents have no problem with makeup and music and things that are just not appropriate for my daughter's age. And then she's struggling with this back and forth of, well, I see my friends do it and their parents are okay with it. And you have to say, while being respectful, you can't really say, well, those are not good parents in our view. Because there's a way to say that that inspires better decision making. And there's a way to say that that could make them look down upon or feel differently about folks. That's that's not not helpful. People can parent hard, but they want to parent. My job is to take care of my kids. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:03]: Well, and the other thing that I think that all of us have to understand is that each of us come into parenting without a rule book, without a guide book. And depending on the model that you saw in your own experience as a child yourself, the other parents that you surround yourself with, you start to identify and create ways in which you parent based on those. And sometimes parents don't realize what they're doing or are not doing, and unless someone points it out to them as well. But I completely understand what you're saying because sometimes you do have to do that deprogramming with your kids when they get back into your home or if they've spent time even when they go to grandparents and they come home, and the rules are different there. And then they come back and are like, well, grandma and grandpa said it was okay, so why not here? And you have to deal with that as well. So I completely understand what you're saying in that regard. Now we've been talking and kinda hinting about the importance of sleep. And as I mentioned at the beginning, you are the CEO and cofounder of Harbor. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:11]: It is a organization company that is working to create happier parents and healthier families, as I said, one restful night at a time. And I remember those days with both my kids feeling like a zombie when you're trying to go to work, and you're coming home, and, you know, you're getting a few hours of sleep. And, you know, those things are very challenging, and those those days and nights can be long. And that being said, I wanted to ask you about Harbor because, like you said, you spent quite a few years at Mizzen and Main, which is a clothing company. And you pivoted after this to open your own organization and create your own company in that regard and beyond what you did at Mizzen and Main to something completely different. So talk to me about that origin story of Arbor. And what made you decide to move away from clothing and move toward something that we're talking about in regards to helping parents to get better sleep, to be able to stay connected with their children, and be able to create this new product? Kevin Lavelle [00:16:17]: So when my son was born, it was a very memorable time in my life. Also, similar to that very visceral memory of finding out my second was gonna be a girl. We were in the throes of fundraising for Mizzen and Maine. We were assigned the term sheet with our private equity firm in the delivery room for my son. And I remember pieces of that very vividly. And one of them was, I'm not the person who's going to decide the car seat or the stroller. I was helpful with my wife there where she wanted me to. But I'm more of the tech person, and I did a lot of research. Kevin Lavelle [00:16:49]: And there was a company called Nanit that had a lot of recognition and press about their very innovative baby monitor. It's a Wi Fi camera with an app on your phone. And I thought, oh, that's really neat. I like apps on my phone. That's convenient. But while someone was a couple, I don't know, weeks or months old, I can't remember the exact date that it happened. And he was in his own room. And I woke up one morning and the app on my phone, because you have to sleep next to your phone, which I don't like doing to begin with, but you have to sleep next to your phone so the app audio runs in the background. Kevin Lavelle [00:17:18]: The app had just crashed. And look, apps crash. They're not a 100% reliable. And I panicked and ran across the house. And, of course, he was fine. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for. But it was a very alarming realization that this thing that I'm supposed to be able to rely on, you I can't. And so we went out that day and bought an old school Motorola camera and an old school Motorola monitor that was direct local only communication. Kevin Lavelle [00:17:46]: It does not use the Internet in any way, shape, or form. But we kept a Wi Fi camera. I got rid of the Nanit and ended up just using a Google Home device, a Nest camera, because my wife and I worked together at Mizzen and Maine. And when she came back to work, we wanted to be able to check-in on the nanny with a babysitter. You just you wanna be able to know. And not that I wanna be monitoring 20 fourseven, but technology is supposed to make our lives better. And there have been a lot of promises that have largely failed to deliver for parents. So this idea of why do I have 2 separate systems to be able to just know that I'm monitoring my kid and record and rewind and check out from outside the house? I talked to a lot of parents over the last 8 years and just sort of getting feedback and wondering what they were using. Kevin Lavelle [00:18:32]: And I found out that 20 to 30 plus percent of my friends did the same thing that I did, was have multiple systems. And in an industry and in a time of life when parents want the best for their kids, baby registries are between $3 and probably $15,000 worth of products as a first time parent. Cribs and strollers and car seats and multiple strollers and formula and and pumps and on and on and on and on. The best that parents have to offer or the best that parents have accessible to them is hacking together multiple systems that don't communicate with each other and blah blah blah. So I wanted to solve this problem since my son was born. And so what we've built is a camera and a 10 inch monitor that connect directly to each other without Internet. And both devices also connect to the Internet. So you get the best of both worlds. Kevin Lavelle [00:19:29]: It's a dedicated device that alerts you if you lose connection. And everything connects to the Internet when it's available. So we have an app. You can record. You can rewind. You get all of those benefits and features as well. I've got one right over here. I should have had it right next to me. Kevin Lavelle [00:19:44]: But it is a 10 inch monitor. So you can actually watch up to 4 different streams on one screen. You can control the zoom and the volume of each independently. There's nothing like that that exists today. And I can tell you, however bad the experience was with a Wi Fi camera with 1 child with 2, it's it's almost impossible on a tiny little iPhone screen. And we can watch up to 4. And then we put privacy first. So our camera and our tablet are both built outside of China. Kevin Lavelle [00:20:10]: They're both built with non Chinese silicon. The chips inside the device is basically the thing that powers it from a processor perspective. And then the chip in the camera is able to do all of the advanced analytics and kind of signal to noise sorting that makes our product really unique on the device locally. Meaning, it does not go through our cloud to process your information. And the the best way to think about that is like on a self driving car on a Tesla, they have cameras that process everything locally. Because if you had to send to the Internet, is that a red light or a green light? Obviously, that's not very safe from a decision making time frame. And then we also put a memory chip in the camera. So all of your memories are stored locally on the device itself. Kevin Lavelle [00:20:52]: If you wanna use our app, obviously, if you're outside the house, you will access it, and that will be remote. We're not storing it. We're not processing it. Unlike every other Wi Fi camera that exists, you are paying them to store your footage on their cloud. And in many cases, third party clouds that may not have the same level of security that you would expect. So very unique device, very unique monitor. We've really positioned ourselves as something that does not exist today for parents and started shipping mass production units to customers in September of 2024. And it's going great so far. Kevin Lavelle [00:21:24]: We've shipped thousands of devices in just a few months. And then the other thing I'll touch on very briefly for framing is that's exciting and and we think a game changer for parents. And it's been very well received. But we are using it as the foundation for what we have called a remote night nanny. So if you can afford it, an in home night nanny or night nurse is one of life's greatest blessings. It's also unaffordable for almost everybody. And a lot of people who can afford it don't want someone else in their house, or they heard a horror story and they don't feel comfortable with it. Or even if they can afford it, they can't really find someone that they would trust to come in and help take care of their child. Kevin Lavelle [00:21:57]: And the main purpose of an in home night nanny is they will listen to your baby monitor in another room, and they will go in when it is necessary and appropriate to go in. So if your child starts to fuss or cry a little bit, they'll look at the monitor. Okay. Nothing's wrong. And they basically start a timer and they wait 5, 10, 15 minutes depending on age and stage. Because if you hear a child cry and immediately run-in, you delay their ability to learn how to sleep because sleep is a skill. Just like talking and walking, you have to kind of fumble through it and you and you find your way and you develop the skill of sleeping. There's a lot of really bad information out there on the Internet about sleep. Kevin Lavelle [00:22:36]: And sleep experts, legitimate ones, know you have to help the child learn how to sleep. And so, the challenges in home night nannies, if you can find 1, are $300 to $700 a night depending on where you live in the country. And it's very hard to find them as well. So, what we're doing is because we have built the hardware, after you onboard into our system, you can hire our professionally trained night nurses remotely. You press a button on the monitor, sort of like arming an alarm system, and that turns over the controls of your monitor to our professionally trained night nurses. We turn the volume on your monitor down to 0 all night long and only wake you up when a professionally trained night nurse says it's time to go in. So if something is wrong, like something falls in the crib or the baby's arm gets out of the swaddle and gets stuck in the crib slot, we're gonna wake you up immediately. Otherwise, we're gonna start the timer and we're going to wait until it is time for you to go in. Kevin Lavelle [00:23:33]: And what we have found is the 1st night, parents are adjusting to, okay, this is a little different and a little a little new. But the 2nd night, parents are telling us they've things like, I haven't slept this well since my 1st trimester. And that's because it's not just that I'm not hearing something. Because you may not go in all night long, but your child is going to make noises all night long. Kids make a lot of noise. And if you don't remember it, good for you. That's fortunate. But kids can fuss and cry off and on for hours. Kevin Lavelle [00:24:03]: Now, they're still getting sleep in between, but you're not as a parent. But what we're finding is parents are telling us, especially moms, to have a professional be the one that is helping me know when to go in rather than that anxiety and that guilt and that shame that comes with being a parent and not knowing what to do, It allowed me to really actually get deep, restful sleep for the first time in a long time. And because we have built the hardware, we have a lot of fail safes built in, the system just turns itself back on if it loses connection, And we're hiring professionally trained nurses so that we can have 1 nurse work with multiple families at the same time and bring the cost down to about 5% of the cost of an in home night nanny. So that's Harbor. A lot more to talk about there, but that's a good good roundup of what we've built here. No. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:51]: It sounds like an amazing product, and I have not used it, and I don't need it now. And my kids would be really weirded out if I was using it at this point in their lives. But that being said, when they were very young, this sounds like a game changer. Now one question that I had when you were talking about the technology and, you know, how you had your app and that you were trying to keep it on a phone and and that it was running and then lose power and you you know, all of that story that you told. With your system, are you running off of your Wi Fi in your home, or are you running off of the Wi Fi off your phones? Because if the power goes out, then, you know, how does that all work? Kevin Lavelle [00:25:31]: Yeah. So a couple of points on the technical side. The camera and the monitor or multiple cameras are going to run off your home Wi Fi when it is strong and available. If you don't have Wi Fi, so as a point of comparison, if you have one of these Wi Fi baby monitor systems and you travel to a hotel, you can't use it because hotels will not let you tap your devices onto their Wi Fi. You can put your phone on it, but you can't run your devices on their networks from a security perspective. So the message boards online are full of parents who said, you know, just got to our hotel and realized I can't use my Nanette. I can't use my Owlette. And I had to run to Walmart to get a baby monitor because, you know, get adjoining rooms. Kevin Lavelle [00:26:11]: You gotta be able to look in. And so the camera and the monitor, one camera and one monitor, creates its own Wi Fi signal to communicate directly with each other while not requiring a separate Wi Fi network. So it has direct local communication that doesn't require the Internet. But when you're at home and your your routers are appropriately configured and and everything is running, it will just run through your home home Wi Fi. And one of the benefits there is home Wi Fi tends to be stronger. You've got it across the entire house. And our that feed does not leave your home. So if it's running on your home WiFi, it does not leave your home. Kevin Lavelle [00:26:50]: Again, we are not swearing or processing anything. If your router goes down, if your Internet goes down, then your camera will fail over to direct local communication. So when it's running through your home WiFi, it's saying, okay. I'm running through home WiFi. I've got good signal strength. All of that's measured. When it can't find that home WiFi or it's not working, then it says connect directly to the monitor. Now with a power outage, at that point in time, if you were running an app on your phone, the camera is going to fail because no baby monitor cameras come with batteries. Kevin Lavelle [00:27:23]: I'll say none. Virtually none do because batteries are a severe fire risk, especially if it's running 247. And that's why, generally, you will not see batteries in cameras in homes. And so if there's a power outage, you wouldn't necessarily be notified if you're just using a WiFi camera. But our monitor would know, hey, I've lost connection with that camera because the cameras no longer has power. I'm going to alert the parents that there's no longer a connection. Now, that doesn't mean you can do anything about it because you don't have power in your house. But now you know, and you can choose to maybe open the doors so that you can still hear, maybe bring the crib into your room. Kevin Lavelle [00:28:02]: That's then a parental decision on what happens next. But the important thing is we empower parents to know what's actually happening. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:09]: And about the night nurses, tell me about how do you identify these individuals? What type of background do they have? How are they trained to be able to provide that kind of service for families? Kevin Lavelle [00:28:18]: So we're recruiting actual nurses who have worked in pediatrics, whether in offices or hospitals. And then in some cases, they have in home night nursing experience where they have worked with families and homes. And in other cases, they just have pediatrics medical experience. And then we are training them from our professionally trained night nursing staff. So, our director of nursing has worked for years in hospitals. She was a pediatric oncology nurse. She worked as an in home care manager and as an in home night nurse. She's a Hmong herself. Kevin Lavelle [00:28:49]: And so she is working with one of our advisors and our team on training those nurses that we're bringing in. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:56]: And as you said, those in home nannies or nurses that you might have inside your home can be very expensive. What's the price point on not only your system, but having this type of monitoring with night nurses to be able to assist parents? Kevin Lavelle [00:29:09]: To buy our camera and our monitor and all of our features, we do not require subscriptions or additional payments. You buy a camera and a monitor, you get everything forever. It's $599, which puts us as roughly price comparable to all the other leading systems on the market today because they require annual subscriptions. And then the remote night nanny experience, right now, is about $30 a night. You have to buy kind of packages of nights, and it works out to about $30 a night. And our long term vision is to get the cost down to $20 a night. Once we have enough people in the system and we can hire the staff and have the systems capable of working with many more families at the same time, we will continue to pass those cost savings on to our customers. And it's kind of cool. Kevin Lavelle [00:29:51]: At $20 a night, you could do 3 months of the remote night nanny for the same cost of about 1 week of an in home night nanny. And so we like to say 95% of the benefit and 5% of the cost of an in home night nanny. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:06]: Well, it's a great value for families and definitely gives families peace of mind in regard to being able to be if you are sleeping and you get that good sleep, you're going to be able to be more present and be able to be much more attuned to what your child needs versus trying to struggle through with the lack of sleep that many parents get, especially for the 1st 6 months, 8 months, year, or more, depending on your child, that sometimes you run into. Kevin Lavelle [00:30:37]: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different studies and research, but very significant percentage of couples who get divorced say sleeplessness in the early years of childhood was a major contributing factor. The reality is a lack of sleep contributes to or exacerbates postpartum depression. It has very significant immune system impacts, durability, even to be a safe driver. When you are sleep deprived, whether you have a child or not, sleep deprived drivers can be even more dangerous than drunk drivers. And so, there's a lot from the adult side. And then on the child side, we make a big difference for parents. But on the other side, our monitor system is the kind of help parents and kids get more sleep. Kevin Lavelle [00:31:14]: That's the fundamental nature of our system relative to everything else. The single best thing that you can do for your child is obviously make sure they have appropriate nutrition in those early years, in early months weeks years. The second best thing that you can do for them is make sure that they are getting the appropriate amount of sleep on a consistent basis. And that is really hard to do for most parents for a whole host of very obvious reasons. And so, when you think about a well rested child, certainly, we can imagine they are more pleasant to be around. But from a mental development perspective, from a dysregulation perspective, from an immune system perspective, from a physical health development perspective, all of those, you have to have the right nutrition and you have to have the right sleep. And if you are not supporting your child's ability to sleep through the night, you are very much hampering their health and well-being and development. And I'll say one final note on sleep. Kevin Lavelle [00:32:11]: There are some very bad influencers and sleep gurus that will tell you the minute your child is crying, you need to be in there holding their hands and they will feel abandoned. Science has disproven this again and again and again. And similar to this idea of put your own oxygen mask on first, when moms don't get sleep, the propensity for postpartum depression absolutely skyrockets for all the obvious reasons. And when a mom has postpartum depression, it has a very significant impact on her ability to feed her child, nurture her child, love her child. It's a very difficult thing to go through. Obviously, there's no way that I could go through it, but it is a very understandable position that moms find themselves in. And so, these influencers and sleep gurus who, you know, propagate very bad sleep ideas, they're really harming parents' ability to get the right information and support their their families. And so, our focus is how do we help parents who want help? I'm never going to tell a parent, you're doing it wrong. Kevin Lavelle [00:33:15]: Every parent is responsible for raising their own child and we all have our own way. However, most parents are struggling and need some help. And we are here to provide very clear, unambiguous, science backed information. And we do that for free. At our website, harbor.co, we have a ton of free resources. And our mission is happier parents and healthier families. And so, we have a lot of free resources on our website. If you don't want to buy our baby monitor for any number of reasons, that's fine. Kevin Lavelle [00:33:41]: There's still a lot of great resources that you can find. And we have opportunities for parents to sign up for text based sleep coaching. If they just want to text a nurse and get some help, it's a very affordable $30 a month. You don't have to sign up for big hour long sessions or sign up for our full system, although we offer those as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:58]: Well, Kevin, I wanna say thank you for sharing all of that. If people wanna find out more about your system, the night nanny services, or anything else, where should they go? Kevin Lavelle [00:34:10]: Harbor.co. And you can find us on on the socials at harbor sleep. And we have so many great resources there. We have very robust sleep guides for infants and also toddlers. We have also formed a harbor council of pediatric sleep doctors, postpartum counselors, pediatricians, OB GYNs that have written many articles for us. And our goal is if you have a question as a parent, we don't have all the answers yet, but we have pushed a lot of great content for free online to be a great resource for parents as they need it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:45]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Yes. In one word, what is fatherhood? Kevin Lavelle [00:34:55]: Joy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:55]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Kevin Lavelle [00:35:01]: I don't think I could point to, like, we were at a theme park or we were at a restaurant. To me, it's those moments where my daughter would look at me, come home from work, come home from traveling, I'm tucking her in at night. And I just see that look in her eye that says, you are my safety, you are my home. The level of connection and love there, that success is a dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:24]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Kevin Lavelle [00:35:28]: I believe they would say fun, strong, great. And those are the things that that I hope that they would say at their ages with their vocabulary. Some of the kind of underlying things would be that I'm supportive, that we have a lot of fun together. We laugh, chase them around the house, and that they still really want to spend time with me. They've got friends, but generally, they'd rather spend time with my wife and I than anyone else. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:54]: Now let's go 10 years down the road. What do you want them to say then? Kevin Lavelle [00:35:57]: As I think about this phase of life, we no longer have little kids. They're not toddlers, and they go to school full time. And my wife and I have talked about, like, we did it. We got out of the the infant and toddler and very young kid phase as best as we possibly could have. We have wonderful kids. They're respectful. They're resilient. They like to learn. Kevin Lavelle [00:36:22]: They like to have fun. They're great kids. Now, we need to prepare them to be teenagers. And so, what would I hope to feel like at that point in time? That whatever it is that our kids want to do, whether they want to go to college, whether they want to pursue a sport, whatever it is. That they are ready to go face the world and they are as prepared as they possibly could be. As I said, prepare the child for the road. And that they truly understand, as best as a, you know, 18 year old can, what it means to be happy. That they will not chase the superficial. Kevin Lavelle [00:36:54]: That they will chase the core, the meaningful, the spiritual in whatever way that is for them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:00]: Now, who inspires you to be a better dad? Kevin Lavelle [00:37:03]: Certainly, I feel like I won the parent lottery. My parents raised me right. And I felt my whole life the appropriate balance of support and safety, but also go forth and conquer. My wife, she is an absolutely incredible mother, and I think a better mother than I am father. And, you know, as cliche as it is, my kids. When they show me that they want to spend time with me and that they want more of me and that they're truly grateful for the life that we have as best as young kids can, that, okay, keep going. I want to do more of it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:34]: Now, you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that people can think about and look at ways in which they can incorporate some of those pieces into their own experience as a father. If you are talking to a father, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every father out there? Kevin Lavelle [00:37:50]: So for the dads that have kids older than me, I'm not sure how much advice I could give. But for those coming up behind me with with younger kids, I think it's a big part of what we talked about. Raise kids that you want to be around and that they love you. Like, that they are the kids that other people want to spend time with and that they want to spend time with you. That that kind of full circle. And if you do those two things, then you're doing all the other things right. And that's a good kind of metric or or baseline to seek. And as cliche as it is, it goes by really fast. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:27]: It definitely does. Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And as Kevin said, if you wanna find out more about him or about his company, go to harbor.co to find out more information about this amazing new technology and resource for you as you are working to be the best dad that you wanna be. Kevin, thanks so much for being here today. Kevin Lavelle [00:38:51]: Thanks for the opportunity and and for the inspiring work you do for dads. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:55]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:54]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Unlocking Emotional Strength Through Attunement and Support In a recent episode of Dads with Daughters, we had the privilege of hosting Dr. Tovah Klein, an esteemed professor at Barnard and author of the insightful book Raising Resilience: How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. Our conversation centered on the vital role fathers play in nurturing resilience and emotional strength in their daughters during challenging times. By delving into the essence of resilience, Dr. Klein offers invaluable advice on how fathers can become pillars of support and emotional stability for their children. The Essence of Resilience Understanding Resilience Dr. Klein defines resilience as the ability to adapt, adjust, and be flexible in the face of life's challenges. It is a critical aspect of a child's development, enabling them to navigate adversity with the emotional backing of their parents or caregivers. Rather than shielding children from every hardship, it's crucial for fathers to allow their daughters to face small adversities, helping them build coping skills and inner strength. Attunement and Emotional Stability Attuning to Emotional Needs Dr. Klein emphasizes the importance of fathers being emotionally attuned to their children. Emotional attunement involves understanding and responding appropriately to a child's emotional cues and needs. For fathers, this means managing their personal stress and emotional states to maintain stability at home. Children require emotional availability and unconditional love to build confidence and mental health, and fathers play a pivotal role in providing this foundation. Shifting Focus and Modeling Healthy Behaviors From Work Stress to Home Serenity A key recommendation from Dr. Klein is the necessity for fathers to shift their focus away from work-related stress before engaging with their children. Modeling healthy behaviors, such as limiting screen time and prioritizing family interactions, sets an example for children to follow. Fathers should strive to be present, listen, and engage in meaningful conversations during everyday moments like car rides or bedtime, turning these instances into opportunities for connection and support. Embracing Vulnerability Teaching Through Vulnerability Dr. Klein underscores the importance of fathers displaying vulnerability. By expressing a range of emotions and acknowledging their struggles, fathers teach their daughters that it's normal to experience and cope with various feelings. This modeling helps children feel validated and understood, fostering emotional intelligence and resilience. Practical Strategies for Coping Handling Academic and Social Pressures When addressing academic struggles or peer conflicts, Dr. Klein advises fathers to listen and validate their children's feelings rather than solve every issue for them. Encouraging daughters to learn from their experiences and take pride in their achievements, even during adversity, builds their problem-solving skills and resilience. Conflict with peers is natural and can lead to stronger friendships as children learn to navigate and resolve disputes on their own. Empowering Fathers, Empowering Daughters As fathers, the role you play in your daughters' lives is immensely significant. By being emotionally attuned, modeling healthy behaviors, and embracing vulnerability, you empower your daughters to develop resilience and emotional strength. These foundational skills enable them to face life's uncertainties with confidence and adaptability. For more resources on enhancing your parenting journey, visit Dr. Klein's website tovahklein.com, and consider joining support communities like The Fatherhood Insider and the Dads with Daughters Facebook group. Together, let's raise a generation of strong, resilient young women. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' wives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you, and walk on this path that you're on. And I call it a path. It's a journey. We're all on it together as we're raising our daughters to be that those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And it's not always going to be easy. There's gonna be bumps in the road. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And but in the end, each and every one of us is working to try to help our children to be able to be self reliant. And one of the topics we're gonna talk about today, resilient as they get older. And every week I love being able to bring you different guests that can help you to do just that. Sometimes we have dads on. Sometimes we have others that have amazing resources that can help you to do just that. And today we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Tovah Klein is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: And Tovah is a professor at Barnard, as well as we're going as well as a author of a new book called raising resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. I'm really excited to have her on and to introduce her to you. Tovah, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:01:40]: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, I'm excited to have you here as well. Because as you heard, this podcast is all about raising strong, independent women. And part of that is being able to give our kids the keys to, well, I'm gonna say the castle in regards to helping them to be resilient in the things that they're going to come up against. And there are definitely going to be things that they're going to come up against. And there's some of those are gonna be positive. Some may be negative and some may be somewhere in between. And I'm really excited to be able to delve a little bit deeper into this book that you've put out into the world. But I think I wanna step back in time just a little bit. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:16]: And first I wanna have you define resiliency because you know, this book is called raising resilience and every person that hears that word resilience may have a different thought in their mind of what that means. And then I'd love to hear your origin story. I wanna hear why this topic and why you wanted to put all the time, passion, effort into putting this out into the world? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:02:37]: So when I think of resilience, what I really think about is the whole person, the whole child. And resilience is not like a trait or a dose or something that you say, you know, I'm 1 or I'm a 6. It's actually a part of who we raise our children to be. It's about adaptability, adjustment, flexibility. You can think of it as opening up their thinking, but it's being able to move with whatever life gives them. And as you just said, life's gonna give them good and not so good. And so, really, when we think about preparing our children for life, we love them, We do all kinds of kind of things for them, but really what we want is for them to be able to handle the hardest parts of life, and that's what we call resilience. It's a process to help them develop it, but also that adjustment, adaptability, flexibility allows them to face hurdles and shift, face hurdles and shift, knowing that they're not alone in the world. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:03:38]: They're not doing this themselves, but with originally a parent or whoever is the main caregiver, and then in life, other people who can be there for them. So that's really how I think about resilience is this dynamic piece of self that gets developed over time. Actually, I've been in the field for almost 3 decades now working first with young children and parents, and my research was always centered around young children and that really important influence of parents on them. And then as careers change, I started working with, you know, older children and parents, and that just broadened my thinking. And one day came to this sudden realization that really what parents were doing is helping children prepare for uncertainty. Like, every single day is uncertain. And I have kind of 2, I would say, areas that I'm passionate about and I've spent my life in. One is kind of everyday, normal development challenges, stressful moments. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:04:41]: And then the other piece, which I always saw as related, was working with families in traumatic situations, so either individual trauma from, you know, abuse or hurts, or fleeing a fire or a flood, but also collective trauma. So children and families after 911, I've done work now in COVID, which when I started conceptualizing the book, I had not yet, but, you know, sort of large scale traumatic events. And when I put those 2 together, I realized that the piece that happens in trauma, whether that's a severe crisis and you've just fled a hurricane and those roads washed out, or you're getting through a normal day with 3 children of different ages and you're trying to get out the door, you're always dealing with uncertainty, and it's very destabilizing. And then that what I got to is, like, oh, then what we're doing every single day in our relationship with our child, whether we know it or not, is helping them prepare for life, which is gonna unfortunately have bad things happen in it, and we want them to be able to handle. We want them to be able to people to turn to. So the book started out really about uncertainty, wrote a proposal, kind of put it aside, you know, life gets in the way, work gets in the way. Then when COVID hit, it really became very clear to me that uncertainty was here to stay, or I thought it was here to stay, and I felt like I needed to get back to this book. But when I started writing, and my contract, you know, got a contract with HarperCollins, the editors kept saying to me, you know, everything you write about is about resilience. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:06:13]: And I pushed back saying, you know, that's really a buzzword. And I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in writing a book about how do we raise decent human in writing a book about how do we raise decent human beings? What does that mean for parents? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:06:19]: What does that mean for children? And what I meant by that was children who grow up with a strong voice and ability to take care of themselves and have confidence and, equally, an ability to look to others and be kind and compassionate and aware of their community. And they said, yes, but everything you're writing about is resilience. And so I said, okay. I'm gonna take it out of that buzzword, and I'm gonna really unpack what does resilience mean, and what does that parent relationship or caregiver relationship mean in terms of raising that child because so much of this is about us as parents, and that had been the life work I've been doing is really studying and working with everyday parents to understand what we bring to this as parents, because that then drives how we see our children, how we either do or don't accept them for who they are, and children have to be accepted for who they are. And so what's the work we we must do on ourselves to understand ourselves so that we become that buffer between the world and what the world gives us and children so that there's stress, but it's not overwhelming stress for children. And that's really how this book came to be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:37]: Now one of the things in the book that you talk about and that you emphasize is the role of parental attunement in building resilience. How would you say that fathers in particular can attune to their children's emotional needs during challenging times? And what specific strategies can they use to be more emotionally available? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:07:58]: Yeah. It's such an important question because, you know, as you know, as a father and a and a podcaster with fathers listening, for so long, the field of psychology didn't even know that fathers existed, or they were sort of like, oh, yeah. But we know now from experience and equally from the research that a loving parent matters and fathers matter. And so this idea of attunement, particularly when times are stressful, really means starting with self. And I think the the challenge for some dads, I think not always, but is that boys are raised into becoming men who aren't really taught or told, oh, you're supposed to feel feelings. Feelings are okay. This this is human. And so doing the work to say, oh, how am I doing? How am I feeling? Can I ground myself as a dad so that I can turn to my child and figure out what my child needs? Because often as parents, when we're upset, we go for control. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:09:00]: Right? If I'm feeling really rattled, if there's a lot of uncertainty, every parent, male, female, non binary, like, every parent who feels unsteady kind of we kind of go for, what can I control? And when you take a step back as a dad and you say, okay. I'm the one who's stressed here. How can I get a little steadier so I can turn to my child and then say, what does this child need for me to protect them right now? Not protect them by keeping everything out, but by saying, right now, we're not sure what's happening. People are getting sick and we're not sure why, but what I know is that by staying home, I'm gonna keep you safe, and we're gonna still have our meals together, and I'm gonna still put you to bed. It reassures a child that even when there's bad things going on, this parent is close to help them, and that's what children need. We always think of it in young children. Children need it across ages, for us to say I'm here for you even though this is scary or stressful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:59]: So some of what you were just talking about, those emotional barriers or the walls that sometimes some men put up, it's not always easy for some men to break those down. And to be, as we've talked about on the show before, is vulnerable with those around them. And from what you just said, really, to me, what I'm hearing is the importance of being vulnerable and showing that vulnerability with your kids. Because by showing that vulnerability, it equates to allowing and providing your kids a glimpse of resiliency in many different ways. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:10:36]: Yeah. You'd summarized that very well, actually, which is we have to be vulnerable in order to say, oh, what am I feeling? And, you know, I read something recently that said being vulnerable is the opposite of cool, you know, being cool. Because being cool is kinda putting on, like, armor of some kind. Like, you know, I got this. You know, I'm a cool person. Being vulnerable says, I'm gonna show you and myself all of me. And all of me is not always parts that we're proud of or that we feel good about, but they're part of us. So right now, you're a father and something's going on in your life or in the world, you have to say, look, I'm a little scared, you know, to yourself or to a partner or to a friend. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:11:18]: I'm a little scared, but I know I have to take care of these children. So I'm gonna figure out what that's about so I can turn to my child and say, yeah. This is unknown, and we're gonna figure it out together. And it's that vulnerability that allows us to be full people. What it shows to the child is it's okay to have this range of emotions, of, you know, reactions, and that that's life. Life is not about covering up how you're feeling. Life is not about pretending. Oh, no. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:11:49]: No. No. I'm not upset. It's just the opposite. It's saying, you know, I am upset. And even if I can't do what I wanna do, I know that daddy is gonna love me even though I'm upset right now. And so when fathers model that, children go, oh, it's okay to fall down, to fail, to feel really dumb. Whatever it is, it has to be modeled for them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:13]: Now also in the book, you talk a lot about how adversity can actually make children more resilient. Can you share some examples of how fathers can help their children to reframe difficult situations? And it could be something like it could be peer conflict, it could be academic struggles, it could be other aspects that they're going to run into. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:12:36]: So I think, you know, one of the biggies on the academic side is, you know, your child comes home, your daughter comes home from pick a grade and says, like, I'm just stupid. I can't do math. This is very stereotypical and yet happens all the time for girls, for adolescents and younger girls. I'm stupid. I can't do this. You know, and as a dad, you might think, oh, maybe maybe I shouldn't push her to take that harder math that she wanted to take. You know, maybe I should just say to her, oh, honey, you know, you don't have to take algebra, advanced, or whatever it is. Instead, you can say, like, yeah, that is hard, and learning is a hard process, and be there with them. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:13:15]: So some of it is listening. You know, we tend to want to problem solve. I know, there's all kinds of jokes about, you know, men and dads wanting to problem solve, but I always say, well, moms do that, too, you know, but, you know, that's sort of the stereotype of, of males. And what we don't do as parents well enough is listen. So it may be listening to your daughter really cry, scream, tear the paper up if they still have paper tests, and then say, yeah, this is there's no question this is hard. Maybe you recall a story from your own. Oh, yeah. I remember when I got to quadratic equations, and, woah, I thought I'm the dumbest person in the world, but I wasn't. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:13:54]: And it's holding them through that, allowing them to have all of those emotions, and then some sense of tomorrow might be better is what I call it. Right? So let's see how it goes tomorrow. Do you wanna talk to the teacher? Tomorrow, you're in the moment. It's like, no. You know? They just wanna vent, and you let them vent. But the next day when they go back to school, they may actually come back and say, hey. I got my test back, and I didn't do well, but I didn't do the worst. Or I got problems right. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:14:21]: I was sure I got wrong. You go, oh, really? What you learned from that? Oh, okay. And you have to have this, like, almost like a humorous distance. Right? You don't wanna say I told you so or I knew it, but you can say, yeah. You know? That's gotta feel great. So what are you thinking next time? Or if you wanna think through studying differently, let me know. And then the child builds on that. Oh, I actually didn't do as poorly on that test as I thought. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:14:48]: The dad wasn't there going, oh, it's only because you were tired. Like, we love to make excuses for our children. We either blame them, like I told you to go to bed earlier, or we make excuses. Oh, remember you weren't feeling so well. And all of that works against a child saying, I faced something. It was hard. I don't love my score in that test, but I'm actually proud of the things I did get right, and I'm gonna study a little differently next time. That's strength. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:15:14]: Fighting with friends, children do it all the time. And in fact, the data we have with younger children is that they fight more with the people they're closest to. So they don't really fight so much over, you know, building a block tower or how to organize the playground game if it's somebody they're not friends with because it's not worth their energy. But they can get into pretty heated fights with people that they're friends with or that they play with a lot, and then they come back together. Why? Because they want to. The motivation is I might have thrown you out and said I never wanna see you again or talk to you again yesterday, but today, you're my friend again. And it's even stronger because we've been through this conflict, and we've we've resolved it. And so I think as a father to know that it's not about the problem solving, but to to listen, to say, hey. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:16:09]: If you want my help, I'm here. But to recognize that you have to wait for the child to come in and say, I really do wanna play with her tomorrow. Oh, okay. Well, you know, do you want wanna think about what helped you last time with that friend and and to talk it through. And I see it all the time now with with social media and teenagers. You know, when I hear my kids or my college students, I teach at a women's college, so I have all these incredible young women. You know, that term ghosting, which was new to me in my generation probably shows, like, what? But with ghosting, it's almost like there's a brick wall. And so sometimes I say to a teenager, like, is there a way to take a step back and maybe try another day to reach that friend? Because it sounds like that really was a friend. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:16:55]: So it doesn't have to be the message is this doesn't have to be forever. And I think dads have to give that message when it's appropriate. Right? You're really heated now, but I'm wondering if in some time and initially, the the child goes, no way, but then they may come back to you and say, yeah, I was thinking about what you said. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]: You know, one of the things I was thinking about, and it kinda goes into some of the things you wrote too, was the fact that more and more you hear today about the mental health concerns in young people and the rising concerns about mental health and the struggles that young people are having. What would you say to fathers about how they can contribute to create a supportive environment at home that fosters both emotional intelligence and emotional component. You know, I say it in my book, these 5 pillars, but the first is building trust, right? That's what every father is doing with their child. They're building trust in this relationship. Like, even when things go awry between us, I'm here for you. You know, putting your child to bed at night or going into check on your teenager really can be about, boy, we had some rough spots today, and you know, I'm sorry, and I still love you. All of those disconnections that get repaired, reconnecting are really core for our children and particularly, I'm gonna say, for our girls, because they need to know conflict is part of life. That's where you get this emotional attunement, which is, yeah, we were angry before, you were really mad at me, and now we're back together, and we're good. This is part of it. You're not, like, overlooking it. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:18:40]: But I think the other piece at home is that we tend to put a lot of pressure on our children, particularly firstborns. Not always, but particularly firstborns. Right? They're our first ones. They make us a parent. You know what I'm saying? Before that first one, there was no such thing as I'm a parent. Now I'm a daddy. You might have subsequent children, but the first ones are kind of our reflection. They go out in the world, we feel great when they're doing well, and we like smile. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:19:06]: And then when they're not doing well, we're like, we feel terrible, but also, we tend to blame them. Don't do it that way. So I think for dads to really think about, when am I too hard on my child or my children, and when am I putting too much pressure on them? Because we live in a very competitive world, you know, certainly academically and just there's all this messaging about mental health, which we should be concerned about. But there's equally messaging about, there's only one way to get to the top, or if you're not at the top, you won't succeed. And it's a total lie. It's just a lie. And I feel like if every per parent, every dad could say to their child, there's lots of ways to be okay in the world. You know, some people are really great at sports. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:19:50]: Some are really great at math. Some just enjoy it. Like, we've taken the joy out of learning or doing. So I think at home to really think about, can I bring the pressure down? Can I find moments of joy together? Like, you're much better off having a dance party, if that's what your children like to do, or have a backwards dinner. This is I grew up with backwards dinners occasionally, and they were just such a joy, or can we take a different path to get to where we're going today, and who wants to map it out? And even if you get lost on the way, that's funny. That's really funny, you know. So where can you have those moments of shared joy, and then I'm gonna get back to listening. We don't listen to children. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:20:29]: They're not busy people. Dads are busy. Maybe you have work or maybe home is work. You've got a couple of kids or you've got one who's got some special needs right now and you're trying to figure those out and you're taking them to different therapists. Whatever it is, we're busy. And what gets lost is what I call the space in between, which is like getting there. You know, maybe that's in the car or it's, you know, you walk to school or to a doctor's appointment or something. In those moments, there's a lot of time to connect and listen to your child. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:20:59]: And so putting more of that in or thinking, like, do I really wanna rush through bedtime with my 8 year old? Or can I slow it down and so they go to bed 10 minutes later? Anything at home that brings down the pressure and gets parents to exhale and the dads to say, just wanna connect with you. I don't really care what you eat for dinner. I'm gonna serve it. I'm not gonna take it personally if you don't need it, and I'm gonna listen to you today. So the lighter we are with children, the better. And it also opens them up to talk more. And we say, you know, we ask them questions, they shut down. They're like, I'm not answering you, daddy. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:21:32]: But when we sit down at dinner and say something funny that happened I I'm just thinking of my husband used to sit down and he'd go like, I'm gonna tell you the funniest thing that happened today. And it would just be this, like, beat fact of some kind. Then the children would start talking because nobody asked anything of them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:47]: Earlier, you talked about fathers trying to protect their kids. And I think that the word protect means different things for different men. But I guess one thing that I think that many men feel is that they need to protect their kids from hardships, from that they need to protect them from getting hurt. How can fathers reconcile that instinct with some of the approaches that you're talking about, about allowing kids to face adversity as a means of building resilience? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:22:20]: So much of this is about work on themselves. Right? Of course, we wanna protect our children. There's a part of any dad in particular because what's the function of a daddy to love a child and keep them safe? And to say, you're not gonna always be with them. You're not gonna always be there to protect them. So what can I do to help them deal with the little hurts and the smaller hurdles and the smaller adversities now is to back off and let the child deal with them? So, I'll give an example. You know, that term bully gets used a lot. Now, there are some children who really are victims to being bullied, but every child potentially is going to have meanness in their life from other children and from themselves, by the way. I think we do a disservice when we tell children that's mean, that's mean, that's mean because it scares the child. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:23:09]: Well, what if I don't like my friend today? And then am I a horrible person for telling them I don't like them? No. They're not horrible people. They may be standing up for themselves. So when we step back, and if a dad steps back and says, what's worrying me so much about my child getting hurt? Because every dad brings their full self to being a dad. And so it's really about saying, what's the really, what is the harm that I'm worried about? And usually, it's I remember how bad that was being left out, or I was terrible at athletics, which is takes in a whole other life for men than it does for women, right, because boys are supposed to be athletic. Right? So if you were that child who was left out or you were that kind of outsider peer who didn't really feel like you belonged, we then get more worried for our children, and we jump very quickly. So I think being aware of self, and that's what I call in my book, The You Factor, those are I have all these reflective questions there for dads, for moms, for anybody taking care of children. What is it that I bring? Because when we don't give children this opportunity to handle the smaller hurts, even when the child thinks they're big hurts you know, my friend wouldn't play with me today. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:24:22]: He starts young and goes all the way through adolescence and then becomes part of social media. But to say, yeah, that's really crummy. Sometimes that happens. And to have some empathic, but genuinely empathic, but also, I'm gonna sit by you, but I'm not gonna take this away. I'm not gonna march up to the school and speak to the teacher unless I hear it as a pattern and I'm really getting concerned. Or as I often say to to a parent, you know, to a dad, just check-in with the school and see what the school says, if it's a school that, you know, you're comfortable with or the counselor, you know, the the middle school or a high school counselor. But when we don't let children deal with these smaller stressors, hurts, you know, not doing as well as they wanted, not getting the teacher they wanted, but then they might actually find that teacher is not so bad. It actually strengthens children to say, hey. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:25:13]: I got through that. I figured that out, or I didn't like that teacher because she yelled more than I liked, but, actually, she was a really great teacher, and I learned to deal with the fact that she yelled a lot. That's where strength comes from, that children see people are complicated. And I think as dads, the role is to help them see, yeah, people are complicated. Maybe your friend had a bad day today. Doesn't mean she should've been like that with you, but maybe she had a bad day. Do you wanna see if tomorrow's better? Gives them a world view of, you could have a bad day, and I don't want people vilifying you, and other people also are sometimes hurtful. That doesn't mean they're hurtful all the time, and that strengthens children. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:25:53]: The other thing it does is it helps them use voice. If you never face adversity, you never have to say, hey. I don't agree with that, or you can't do that to me. And I actually think that this huge part of resilience, which is confidence and the ability to stand up for yourself, comes from learning to do it, and it starts off in smaller ways. I well, now I said I didn't wanna play basketball today, and then I basketball today, and then I finally walked away. I just said I'm not gonna play. It's a smaller way to use voice because when people are doing things to you that you don't like, we wanna be sure that our children, the daughters say, absolutely not. You can't do that to me, and not feel like I'm being a mean person. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:26:31]: We do give them double messages, particularly to girls. Be nice. Be nice. Now stand up for yourself. And I see girls getting confused with that. And it's like, well, actually, you can do both. You can be a kind, decent person, and that's not in opposition to saying no, or I don't like that, or can we talk about this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:50]: So what I'm hearing you say is that there really are a lot of tensions, a lot of things that can impact a child in many different ways, whether it be familial tensions, whether it could be tensions from outside the home, whether that that are impacting the child directly, or even world events that may be causing strife, and are impacting your child, whether you like it or not, as as you're thinking about that, or how can fathers take a proactive role in addressing those external those external stressors while still being able to maintain some sense of stability? Some some sense of some sense of stability at home? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:27:36]: Yeah. I mean, that's a big question, obviously. You know, what are those stressors? But I'll start with sort of the innermost or the most intimate, which is your personal stressors. And here's your first level of uncertainty. Like, we change. You know, dads change. You might be calm at some days and a little more frantic or a lot more frantic others. So part of that is being truly in tune with self as best you can and not being hard on yourself when you're not. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:28:06]: So, oh, I'm stressed. Why am I stressed? And then what can I change? Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. But I find that more often than not, a dad could change something. Yeah. You know what? I keep saying that I can't bring the work stress down, but I'm gonna have to, and I'm gonna find a way, or I am gonna help ask for help. If there's a group of people who probably don't ask for help enough, it's parents, and then dads on top of that. Right? They don't say, hey. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:28:33]: Can I ask my neighbor to take my child to the bus stop or pick my child up today or, you know, I'm gonna be late for my child's band concert? Could you let her know I'm still coming? Right? So any way to turn to others for help can help. But then there's the wider world, and that's a lot of self work. I mean, there's a lot going on in the world that is scary. There's no question. And with news being 247 in in our faces, I think it's up to us as the parents. So to the dads to say, okay. I'm a news junkie. I've gotta take some of these notifications off my phone. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:29:11]: I've gotta come up with a way that when I walk in the door and I've got children now to connect to, I've gotta find a place to put my phone. And by the way, that's modeling for when your children have their own phones. It's very hard to say to children, when we walk in, we put our phones here if the dad doesn't do it, because they just call they'll call you out right away. You don't do that. So it's becoming aware of what's stressing you, what's scaring you, and how can you shift in dealing with it. It's a very intentional process. How do I get my feet planted? How do I exhale? 1, I'm just thinking of a dad I worked with for years, and and the first time he called me, he said, you know, I manage this huge group of people. He's in construction, this huge group of people, and I tell them what to do. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:29:56]: And I'm, you know, in the car driving home telling, you know, putting out fires or whatever. And then I get home and no one listens to me, and I said, can you put the phone down, like, a mile away so that the last part of your drive, you're shifting focus? And then when you get to the door of your house, you exhale and say, I'm going in now, to 2 children who won't listen to me. So you're literally intentionally exhaling, switching modes, and getting some humor because that actually that calm or calmer it doesn't read perfect calm is felt by the children, and they feel they feel that dad walking in the door. They feel that dad who's stressed at the dinner table, and so it's really a very intentional process. And again, I think it's something that men in in particular are not raised with. Like, you are gonna be the emotional sustenance for your children, and you are. And so to take that in and say, wow, what a privilege, what a great thing, and wow, That means I have to be aware of myself because the more emotionally attuned a dad is, particularly for those daughters, the more they feel loved and respected. And in their worst moments, they really need to feel that. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:31:10]: Like, I really messed up. They wanna know that this is unconditional love. I still love you. Yeah. That was a mess up. We're in this together. I'm not gonna leave leave you or abandon you because you had a, you know, rotten day or set of events, And that's what bolsters mental health too. I'm loved even when I'm my worst self for the children. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:30]: Well, Tovah, there's a ton to unpack here, and I really appreciate you coming and talking about all of this. And I know that, this book can definitely help so many fathers and mothers and parents in general to better connect with their kids, but also help their kids in a lot of ways. If people wanna find out more about the book itself, where's the best place for them to go? Dr. Tovah Klein [00:31:56]: Yeah. Well, the easiest place is to go to my website, Tovahkleen.com. That's Tovahkleen.com. And the book is sold wherever books are sold. So you can get online at your local book store. And if you go to my website, you've bought the book, you just put in your receipt, whatever receipt it is, and there's a free download for something that I call the UFACTOR journal. And that's all the reflective questions from the book and a place to either write out answers or just have the questions there to reflect on. And I will say I got an email this week from a couple who wrote to me and said that a mom and a dad couple, were doing the reflective questions together and then coming together and discussing them, and it's been good for our marriage. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:32:42]: So I thought, oh, that's really great. Because reflecting on self makes you a stronger person, which makes you a better dad. No question. And shedding vulnerability, because sometimes reflecting on yourself does not feel so great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:53]: So true. Well, I truly want to say thank you. Thank you for writing this and helping parents to connect with their kids in this better way, but also for sharing this with us today for being here and for challenging us to think about resilience in a different way as well. And I wish you all the best. Dr. Tovah Klein [00:33:14]: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:15]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:14]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. Dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Reflections on Cherishing Childhood Moments In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, guest Vincent Micelli and his daughters Matea and Luciana, delved into the multifaceted journey of fatherhood. This episode not only offered heartfelt reflections but also provided listeners with actionable advice on parenting and savoring the fleeting moments of childhood. The Fleeting Nature of Childhood Vincent Micelli poignantly reflected on the transient nature of childhood, emphasizing the profound importance of savoring each moment with your children. He discussed how rapidly these formative years fly by and stressed the significance of being present for your child's "firsts" – first steps, first words, and first days of school. For Vincent, these cherished moments form the core of fatherhood, creating a lifetime of memories that contribute to a deep bond between parent and child. Understanding Individuality Matea Micelli highlighted the critical role of recognizing and nurturing a child's unique personality and interests. Tailoring parenting approaches to suit each child's needs fosters a more profound connection and understanding. Matea's advocacy for individualized parenting rather than generalizing roles resonated strongly with the podcast's underlying message of active, engaged fatherhood. Building Lasting Memories Through Small Moments Luciana Micelli emphasized the importance of small, everyday moments and their role in building enduring memories. She shared how simple activities like playing games or indulging in familial bonding became the foundations of their strong relationships. These seemingly mundane experiences not only enriched. The Last Triceracorn: A Family Project Reaches the World The series, titled The Last Triceracorn Book 1 and Book 2, seamlessly integrates elements from the Micelli family's life, blending fantasy with real-life experiences and adventures. Characters like Zuko, the magical bear, and Esta Colo, inspired by Matea's childhood fascination with shadows, create a magical narrative imbued with personal significance. After more than a decade away from writing these bedtime stories, Vincent and his daughters brought their world to life in a printed form. “It was a way to capture the magic of our family's daily life,” he noted. The self-publishing experience, though originally a Plan B, turned into a remarkable family project and bonding opportunity. Dads with Daughters doesn't just offer advice; it provides a community where fathers can share their stories and learn from each other. Vincent Micelli's journey with his daughters underscores the podcast's essential message—every moment counts, and with the right support, any father can leave a lasting legacy. The tale of The Last Triceracorn is more than a series of books; it's a testament to the power of family, storytelling, and unwavering support. Vincent Micelli's story is an inspiring example for fathers everywhere, proving that with effort and love, you can turn dreams into reality and moments into lasting memories.

Prioritizing Presence Over Presents As we approach the holiday season, the hustle and bustle of gift-giving can often overshadow what truly matters—being present. Just a reminder to cherish moments with our children, whether that's through family traditions, snowy escapades, or heartfelt conversations. These memories are the true treasures that shape our daughters' lives. Taking a Meaningful Break We will be taking a short hiatus for the podcast and I encourage you to immerse yourselvef fully in the season's magic. This is definitely not the end of the podcast, but a chance to recharge and return with renewed energy and insights in the new year. Resources for Reflection and Growth To continue your growth as a dad even during the break, I suggest youo explore the Fatherhood Insider resource. This platform offers an extensive course library, interactive forums, and actionable roadmaps tailored for fathers navigating the complexities of parenthood. Join the Community Don't forget to connect with fellow dads by joining the Dads with Daughters Facebook community. It's a space to share experiences, seek advice, and find inspiration from other fathers who are equally committed to raising empowered daughters. Check the podcast notes for a direct link. Embrace the Joy of Fatherhood This holiday season, let's focus on the laughter and love that fill our homes. Appreciate the simple moments and remember that being a dad is a gift that keeps on giving. Happy holidays from the Dads with Daughters family to yours.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Hey, Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Dads with Daughters, where we bring you stories, tips, and inspiration for raising strong, independent women and helping you to be the best dads that you can be along the way. I just wanted to take a moment to connect with you as we approach the holiday season. It's such a special time of year. And if you're like me, it's also a time to reflect on what really matters, family, friends, and those precious moments we get to spend together. This season, I'm making it a priority to be present with my loved ones, and I want to encourage you to do the same. Whether it's watching holiday movies with your daughters, building a snowman, or just sitting down for a quiet conversation. These are the memories our kids will carry with them forever. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:03]: To give myself and all of us a chance to really soak in the magic of the season, Dads with Daughters will be taking a short break over the next few weeks. Don't worry, we'll be back in the new year for more amazing guests, stories and insights to empower you in your fatherhood journey. Until then, I want to wish you and your family a truly joyful holiday season. May it be filled with laughter, love, and those simple moments that remind us why being a dad is the greatest gift of all. Thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Your support, your stories and your dedication to being present with your daughters inspire me every single day. Take care, be safe, and from all of us here at Dads with Daughters, happy holidays. If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world to them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcomed Katie Koestner, an influential activist and the executive director of the Take Back the Night Foundation, who shared powerful insights on teaching daughters about consent, autonomy, and resilience. Here are some key takeaways from their enlightening conversation. Understanding Consent and Autonomy Katie Koestner underscores the critical importance of educating daughters about consent and bodily autonomy. Consent is not a one-time agreement that cannot be retracted; it can be revoked at any moment. Katie emphasizes teaching daughters the difference between regret and rape, highlighting that a lack of initial resistance does not imply consent. This understanding is vital for fostering an environment where daughters feel empowered to assert their rights and boundaries. Healing from Trauma: A Collective Journey Healing from trauma is an arduous yet rewarding journey that necessitates patience and collective support. Katie reflects on her own experiences, noting that regaining power and control over one's life is a long-term commitment. It's essential for parents, especially fathers, to support their daughters through this process without taking away their agency. Fathers should help their daughters navigate decisions collaboratively, emphasizing that the journey and growth are more important than immediate outcomes. Mentorship and Community Involvement Community involvement and mentorship programs like Take Back the Night are instrumental in fostering resilience and support networks for young women. Katie encourages fathers to guide their daughters in engaging with empowering communities that can offer strength and solidarity. Participating in such programs helps build a sense of belonging and mutual support, which are critical for personal empowerment. Fostering Equal and Respectful Relationships To raise daughters who thrive in healthy, respectful relationships, fathers need to challenge archaic notions of women needing to be "taken care of." Katie advocates for teaching daughters the value of equality and collaboration within relationships. It's crucial for fathers to set an example by treating women with respect and equality in their own lives, reflecting these values in everyday interactions. Encourage daughters to seek partners who value collaboration, mutual respect, and independence rather than falling into roles dictated by outdated stereotypes. Practical Tools for Empowerment Katie offers practical advice for fathers wanting to empower their daughters. She suggests affirming their worth based on their talents, energy, and intellect, rather than appearance. Role-playing challenging scenarios can also help daughters prepare for difficult situations and build the confidence to handle them independently. Katie's conversation with Dr. Lewis reiterates the significance of dads actively contributing to their daughter's self-respect and ability to navigate the world confidently. Take Back the Night and Advocacy Katie remains a staunch advocate against sexual assault through her work with the Take Back the Night Foundation, which organizes events to raise awareness and support survivors. She encourages community involvement in various forms, such as bike races, walks, and vigils, to promote solidarity and resilience. Fathers can support this cause by participating with their daughters, fostering a shared commitment to ending sexual violence. In conclusion, the episode with Katie Koestner on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast provides valuable insights into raising empowered, resilient daughters. Through understanding consent, supporting the healing process, fostering respectful relationships, and active community involvement, fathers can profoundly impact their daughters' lives, guiding them toward independence and confidence. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And, you know, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and work with you as you're walking through this journey that you're on to be the best dad that you want to be, and working with your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be as well. That's why every week we have this opportunity to be able to sit down, talk, and to be able to learn and grow from each other, but also from the people that come on to our show. And it is really important that we're open to learning and growing and being able to truly hear what people have to say and to be able to take that in, internalize it, and turn it into something tangible that we can then use to be those dads that we want to be. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you on this journey. And today, we've got another great guest with us. Katie Kessler is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:22]: And Katie is a activist on sexual assault. She has worked for many years in the Take Back the Night Foundation. She is the current director of the Take Back the Night Foundation. She has a a story that we all should be here to be able to see what we can do to be able to assist our own daughters in having healthy relationships, but also to be safe in their lives as they get older. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here and to be able to have her share her story and also to provide you with some some things to think about as we're moving forward in our own parenting journey. Katie, thanks so much for being here today. Katie Koestner [00:02:07]: Absolutely. Chris, thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to share your story because it's not an easy story. And definitely, it's not I'm sure it's not been an easy journey as you have become the advocate that you've become in sexual assault. And I I know that not everyone has heard your name before and not everyone knows that story, but only you can tell that story in your way. Can you tell tell me a little bit more? Can you share your story with us and what led you to being the activist that you are today on sexual assault? Katie Koestner [00:02:43]: Absolutely. I am delighted to do so. So I think for all the dads out there, importantly, I am the daughter of an FBI agent and a homemaking mom. I grew up outside of Atlanta, Georgia, and then my dad was transferred to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania when I was in middle school, and I had a younger sister. I was pretty darn ambitious in every way, and, loved, I would say, everything from softball and swimming and field hockey to clarinet and trying to miss none on the SAT. I won a scholarship and lived in Japan when I was 16 on to 17 in high school. I was adventurous in every sort of the word. I decided to go up to college and went to the College William and Mary in Virginia as I double majored in Japanese and chemistry. Katie Koestner [00:03:34]: And the orientation was a whirlwind whirlwind experience, and I met a very handsome he could speak 3 languages, wanted to be a brain surgeon, played a great game of soccer, incredible, potential prince charming and well beyond what I had encountered in my life so far and quickly, you know, went out and hung out with him. And he asked me out to dinner probably the 3rd weekend and to the fanciest, most expensive French restaurant in town. And any of you who don't know my story, I'm not gonna share all of it here because it's on TED Talks, and I've only lectured at 5,000 schools, and I'm sure there's clips here and there. I've been on open Good Morning, American, CNN, NBC News, lectured in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people on the mall in DC, at the United Nations, at the Pentagon, just a few places along the way. But the end of the story is I simply trusted this guy. He paid for a very expensive dinner, and I thought he would respect my being a virgin and waiting till I was married. I wasn't drunk at dinner nor that night. And I simply told this guy no. Katie Koestner [00:04:39]: And for historic purposes, I'm sure I am older than many of the dads, who are listening. I might be younger than a few, but I was 18, and this was 1990. And I am the first woman in history to speak out nationally and publicly as the victim of date rape and appeared on the cover of Time Magazine at age 18. So I I stopped there just for a second because I think any dad listening is wondering now, when I already alluded to the fact my dad was an FBI agent, whether this, perpetrator was going to live to see another day when I knew exactly where he lived and could talk tell my dad. But, unfortunately, back then, my dad said I shouldn't have had the boy to my room and it wouldn't have happened. And while I think he probably had mixed emotions, and I don't wanna oversimplify, I do want to say that he was very traditional and very protective and very conservative, which means in high school, if a boy came to get me, he would probably fingerprint the guy's the front doorknob. He would wear his arsenal strapped on the outside as he answered the door. He would usher the potential boyfriend to the family room with the dead animals hanging on the wall and then motion to the back of the house where the targets for bows and arrows were set up. Katie Koestner [00:05:59]: He was easily intimidating to most guys. So before I go on, I I would say that my dad's never heard me speak in all my life, which is hard, and it's one of my motivations for coming on your show, Chris, because I have two main themes that I would get across, and then we can delve into the details. But I'm gonna start with the end first because this is way too important to me. My father told me what to do in regard to boys. He was very protective, and I never I never had a bad boyfriend in high school. Maybe that's because my dad was looming in the backdrop at all times, But I will also say to all the dads, protecting your daughter does not serve her. She's gonna have to do it herself at some point. And if not in high school, then when? So if she can learn how to fend for herself and navigate situations on her own, you are gonna have a much stronger, resilient, confident daughter who will be able to suss out when things are not safe by herself and calling you for help is not what you want to have happen. Katie Koestner [00:07:11]: You want her to navigate the hard situation, to come home that night or next morning at breakfast, and to say, dad, I did it all by myself. Sensed this one comment he made. I was around his friends who were making fun of women, and I knew better that this was not what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. Do you want her to say that when what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. You want her to say that when she's 14, when she's 16, and then you'll know when she goes off into the world, she's gonna do it better on her own because she had you to fall back on if she had to. But I would send her out on every date saying, you've got this. You deserve respect. It's not about your appearance. Katie Koestner [00:07:58]: It's about your amazing talent, your energy, your grace, and your brilliance. If you compliment her just on her appearance, you're gonna teach a frail daughter. I don't care how pretty she is, but you've got to compliment her on something other than that. So I start with, dads, don't protect your daughters. Let them teach themselves how to protect themselves. And the second thing I would say is be mindful of how you talk about women at all times. Be mindful of what you watch, what screens you're on, how you do or don't comment on women in movies, women in television, women in the media, women in politics, women in your work workforce. What do you say about women that's the same or different from men? And the more you treat all genders the same in terms of your analysis and your accolades or your criticisms, the better off your daughter is gonna learn how to navigate the world through equity and respect. Katie Koestner [00:08:57]: And then lastly, even if you're separated from the birth mother of your daughter, even if she is the worst person you've ever met, God forbid, always hold your hate inside and treat everyone even when they're wrongfully treating you, even if they're a train wreck of a human, it's really important that you teach your daughter that denigration is always wrong even when somebody else is wrong. So sorry that was a mouthful, Chris, but, like, I wanted to get those things out on the table and get dads really thinking about them because those two important things are probably the most helpful I can be. And I I would also footnote that I do have children now of my own. I have 16 year old twins. They're not girls. They're boys. And so I I'm on the flip side of your your equation. I'm a mom of boys, not a dad of a daughter, but I think we could talk about that later on is, like, how do you parent all your kids and how when your daughters are out on dates, if they if they actually like boys, who knows? What does that look like? Because I'm raising my sons. Katie Koestner [00:10:02]: I think they're both into girls, maybe not quite so much yet, but I I think that's the track they're on. I'm not too judgy. People are people, but I definitely want them to be somebody's best date and best memory even if they're not in men. I want them to be good, humble, respectful young men, and that's what you should be asking your daughters to look for if they're into men into boys. So and don't look me up if your daughter wants a date. Like, my boys are not once, like, ready for, like, full time studying and the other one's too much on his games to be even intriguing to a girl yet. So don't look me up for dates for your daughter. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]: I love what you shared right there. And I think and I have to say, I'm sorry that you had that experience with your own father and but I appreciate what you had to say and the advice that you gave to fathers because I think it is so important for us as men and as fathers to be able to support our daughters in many different ways. And you talked about the fact that for you, one of the the first things that you mentioned was to treat your daughter to fend for herself, to be able to navigate situations by herself. I want you to think back to your own father and what could he have done for you that would have allowed you or made you feel that he was giving you the ability to fend for yourself? And what can other dads do tangibly to be able to start on that path with their own daughters? Katie Koestner [00:11:29]: Yeah. Fantastic question, Chris. And this is called, I would say, one of those conversations of courage. And not every human is wired to have this kind of conversation. And, I mean, I'm gonna be honest. A lot of people aren't comfortable with their own sexualities, their own relationships, and and men and women both. And I'll footnote it with this. If you're a dad and wants to have what I'm about to describe with your daughter, And you're like, oh, crap. Katie Koestner [00:11:55]: I totally can't do that. I don't have that vocabulary. I couldn't come up with that sentence structure. This makes me feel awkward. I I could look I'd be, like, so nervous. Like, that's totally okay. Not everybody has to be you know, not everyone's a brain surgeon. Not everyone's a psychologist. Katie Koestner [00:12:10]: Not everyone's into like, you everybody has different skill sets. What I want to have happen right now is for the dads listening to hear me model it and then say, if I don't think I can say this, I should at least tell my daughter. There's a few things I'm really awkward at saying that I want you to hear and then listen to this podcast. Push play, like, right here. Like, oh, I've listened to this woman, Katie, once, and she was trying to say it. I I can't do it the same way, but pretend it's my voice and I'm your dad. And, like, seriously, I don't I don't care. You it takes a team of, like, 8 or 9 people to raise a a great kid, and you have to have a lot of role models and a lot and all that matters to me at the end of the day is is intent and try. Katie Koestner [00:12:54]: I intend to do this. I tried to do this. I might not be great at it. People will see your intent and that you tried. So here's kind of what I would say. You said, how could my dad have done it? And it's very simple. You'd you say, like, she's really interested in a guy or somebody, a date, a prospect. She's going out to a party. Katie Koestner [00:13:11]: She's going to her first homecoming. She's going to the think of any number of potential social situations. The best thing you can say is, darling, sweetie, whatever you say. Jenny, Susie, you know, Aloysius, whatever her name is. You say, I know tonight's really important. I don't know how many of these kind of social things you've done, but what's really important to me is that you know you are that good. You know you deserve respect. You know what your morals, your values are. Katie Koestner [00:13:40]: You know what you want to to have happen tonight. Keep that in mind throughout the whole time. You wanna walk away from tonight feeling positive, respected. You wanna come home and feel like tomorrow's gonna be a great day. And if someone treats you at all with disrespect, you know that you don't have to take it. You don't have to stay in that environment. There's never an okay reason where someone should say anything that's degrading. No one should touch you in a way that makes you uncomfortable, and you can navigate a way out. Katie Koestner [00:14:12]: If you want to, we can role play some of the ways you could do that tonight. If you think you're all set, I'm here a phone call away, a text away if you need me. That's all. You just just remind her she's worth it. Put her eye on the prize, which is, like, at the end of the night, she wants to come home safe, respected, and tomorrow is gonna be a great day. And that's it. You don't have to go into the nitty gritty. You don't have to say, like, what if he tries to like, girls might feel awkward about that. Katie Koestner [00:14:40]: That could be a different class. Like, if somebody tried to touch you, how are you gonna if she wants to go there. But if you're just on square one, that's all you have to say. It's like, you've got this. Not like go, oh, you look so pretty, sweetie. You don't need don't say her dress is great, her skirt's cute, her hair looks great. That's fine, But, really, more important than how she looks is being being confident in how she should be treated all all night or all day. Like, whatever the event is, focus more on how she should feel and end up being respected. Katie Koestner [00:15:12]: Not like I mean, do logistics. How's she gonna get home? Who's driving? What happens? You could do some logistics. But if you just constantly say you deserve respect, you're amazing, you're talented, how do you want this night to end? Just focus on the the finish line all the time. I mean, what do athletes do? What it what's anyone who wants to a date is nothing more than an event where you wanna succeed. And succeed is, like, be safe and not be assaulted and have fun. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]: Now one of the things you talked about in your story, you talked at the beginning that you met the gentleman at college, kind of the prince charming effect in many different ways. And then you talked about the importance of really as you're parenting and as you're working, not in in our situation here, in my situation, working with my daughters to identify and try to figure out what to look for in a relationship, whether it be with a man, with a woman, whatever it might be. I guess as you think back to your experiences and the experiences of others that you've spoken to on your podcast, Dear Katie, survivor stories or in your experience in speaking in so many different places. What advice would you give to fathers that are listening that could help them with their daughters to be able to navigate those relationships and help them to provide them with the tools that they should be looking for in those healthy relationships. Katie Koestner [00:16:41]: A healthy relationship, you're gonna hear a lot of working together, collaboration. It's not me, me, me, me. The partner or guy who's all about himself and constantly boasting or bragging, he's actually frail. Like, frail in his ego in that he might need to also eventually use his partner as part of his power play. And anyone who simply talks about themselves, their achievements, it's fine to be a high achiever. That's great. It's fine to be talented and smart, but it's really important to find a partner who's also equally interested in having a partner who is also talented, also brilliant, also smart, and wants to, like, do things collaboratively, not for. You know, old school men are like, I'll do this for you. Katie Koestner [00:17:30]: I'll take care of you. That language is dead. Nobody should be taken care of anymore. We're not in the dark ages. So I think the woman today needs to dad to say, you've got this on your own, and the best thing you can hope for is a collaborator, not a take care of her because no one's gonna be able to take care of anyone else unless you're being purchased, essentially. Being taken care of means you have less power, less equality, less confidence. No one needs to be taken care of. I think that this is not to say, and I wanna nuance this, you can have 2 totally different lanes. Katie Koestner [00:18:08]: And I'll even go so far as to say it's fine if one is a full time stay at home parent, and all they want to be is a, maybe, full time mom. I wanna have 5 kids. I wanna bake cookies. I wanna clean the house. I wanna be the PTA. I wanna do all I wanna volunteer. That's all fine as long as it's a pure choice. So, I mean, the gender roles, who cares? But the idea is, is there respect and valuation that's equitable between the partners? And that's a lot that's thinking way ahead. Katie Koestner [00:18:40]: But at the root of a relationship, when you start out, you can get your daughter thinking about how how does this partner value what I do? How does he or they see what I do? And if she's being taught and trained that she needs someone to be taking care of her, that's gonna only cripple her long term safety and success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: I appreciate that as well because I think you're right. I mean, I know in my own situation with my own daughters, I don't want them to feel crippled by to their success as you just mentioned. I want them to be able to have those healthy relationships. And Katie Koestner [00:19:15]: Yeah. I think what I'd like to say, Chris, is it's gloriously amazing to be the power couple. Seriously, who wouldn't want that? You see you see a few that are still, like, kept wise and, you know, people kind of pity them now. Nobody's like, oh, what a glorious, fabulous relationship you have because all you do is dress up like a Barbie doll, hence the movie. But I think it's an age of glorious and we went through some individual like, you might go back. We're so old, Chris. Like, the eighties, you know, we had all the, like, me, me, me's. Then we had you know, the decades are interesting when we look back at them, but I think we're we're hopefully going into an age of this amazing it's the combination of individuality that blends together into cooperation to build something even more beautiful. Katie Koestner [00:20:08]: And I do think, you know, partnerships and relationships can be that good. It's really there's no such thing as a renaissance person anymore. Like, it's impossible. We have micro slices of everything in the world. So the best thing we can hope for is 2 really dedicated, kind, amazing, committed people who say, like, things are gonna get hard. That's I actually, that brings me to a really good point. Fights are good. Disagreements because you know why? The moment she comes your daughter comes home and is like, oh my god. Katie Koestner [00:20:39]: He made me so mad. You that's good. That's like, okay. Well, how did how did you resolve it? Because if you can't work together and not that's the tell. That's like the next level tell. If you have to think about the first date tells, like, where he makes some random joke or he can't pay look you in the eye if he's checking his phone every second. If he's asking you who your follow these are warning signs. Is he gonna say, why are you following him? What do you see? Like, jealousy is a really bad one. Katie Koestner [00:21:08]: Telling, like, why you why you not not allowing your daughter to have other male friends. That's a big red flag. Like, if a guy goes out with you and I mean, hello. It's it's 2024. Like, if you can't have male friends I remember I was in the chess club in 6th grade, and I was, like, the only girl. So I only hung out with boys, and I was not dating the entire chess club. Let me just tell you. No. Katie Koestner [00:21:34]: It was not like that. I was just like, these are the cool, smart guys. Like, I know. And luckily, back then, I had male friends, but I think you've gotta have a male partner who's good. You can talk to a guy and not be jealous. Like, even if he's cuter than you. Even if he's better at soccer than you. Like, who cares? Like, a secure guy is what you want. Katie Koestner [00:21:56]: He's not constantly jealous because he's ultimately gonna be manipulative and and doing power plays. That I would say that's another one. I'm thinking small things. I don't care about, like, send you flowers and open the door. Who cares? Sometimes people get hung up on, like, oh my god. I can't see the guy who holds the door. I'm like, give it up. Like, he's just trying to be nice. Katie Koestner [00:22:16]: Hold the door for him. If he sends you flowers, send him flowers. I think you break all the rules. And if he spies into silly stuff like guys can't get flowers, what's wrong with you? Again, it's 2024. I mean, maybe you don't wanna paint your nails blue as a guy, but that's fine. But if they buy into too many rigid stereotypes, there's going to be a problem down the road. And I think building in that, like, wow, creativity is helpful because later in life, the more open minded and creative someone is by the time they get to our age, Chris, you bet they're gonna get really dry and boring if they don't have a creative open mind. You wanna see all of those awesome traits. Katie Koestner [00:22:56]: I guess I last thing is do pay attention. I hate to say this, but many rapists, we didn't talk about this, many rapists themselves were also victimized. So do pay attention. No. It's a little bit let's say a few stats. Like, 1 in 4 women or girls is raped sexually assaulted in her lifetime. About 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 men the same. Now the difference is the 1 in 6 to 8 men often go on to become perpetrators. Katie Koestner [00:23:22]: And the 1 in 4 women, a lot of them go on to be victimized again because once you've had it happen once, there's such a huge blow to your confidence and ego as a woman. Many women turn that against themselves, their shame and blame, and many men turn it outward as anger. So a young man's own experience with relationships and and or abuse is really important to find. I mean, you don't wanna, like, quiz him on the first date and give him an interview, but you do wanna find out and see how do they if they have a mother, how do they treat their mother? If they have a father, how do they treat their father? How do they do they fight constantly? Is there a lot of tension? I hate to say it. It's not what they what do your parents look like? Because then I'll know how you look when you look old. Okay. That's fine. If the girl's like, I wanna see your dad. Katie Koestner [00:24:10]: Is he bald to know if he'll be bald? No offense taken. But, like, I think that's so not important. I mean, it is more important to see how they interact, though, with their siblings and with their parents. That part's really important. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]: You know, those numbers are really staggering. And, you know, when I think of 1 in 4 girls experiencing this type of trauma, I guess one question that I would ask of you is thinking about that stat, how can fathers support their daughters if they come to them and say, I've experienced this trauma? Katie Koestner [00:24:46]: Okay. Two best sentences ever. Ready? 1 is well, 3. 1st is, I'm so glad you trusted me enough to tell me. 2nd is, I'm so sorry this happened to you. And thirdly is, what can I do to help you right now? That's it. And then everything else you're gonna have to figure out as you go because everyone's gonna be different. The situation might be urgent. Katie Koestner [00:25:08]: It might be immediate danger. It might be and I'll just nutshell it this way. There's 3 things to think about all the time. First one and I'll do them in order of expiration date. If it's recent, medical attention is paramount. Medical attention also means collecting evidence. You have 3 to 5 days after a sexual assault or rape to get evidence collected. It's free. Katie Koestner [00:25:29]: It's done at usually a hospital rape crisis center. It can be held evidence can be held for up to 2 years. There's no pressing immediacy to to go forward with the district attorney. But if you don't get the evidence, it can't be used later. And that's important because what many of the dads thinking about right now, it may not make sense. 84% of sexual assaults involve someone the victim knows. Trust, likes, not a stranger off the street. So if you get your thinking evidence collected, well, we already know who it is. Katie Koestner [00:25:57]: Even microscopic patterns of bruising and tearing on the victim can prove what her body position was in, whether she was asleep, passed out, if she was up against a wall. Like, all of it now is so great and scientifically proven that can help sway a jury if there was ever a trial about the likelihood of consent. So medical, medical, medical. And then, of course, pregnancy, STIs, all potential and have them looked at immediately. And, obviously, we've got a shape shifting goings on about what to do about unwanted pregnancies, including through rape across the country. So you'll have to think about what state you're in and what your okay. So that's first. And second after medical is reporting options. Katie Koestner [00:26:39]: If it's within 8 years, most states will take a rape case for criminal prosecution. If a girl is a minor when this happens, it might even be longer. But mindfully, let's nuance this a little bit. Let's say she's 14 and her boyfriend's 17. That could be statutory rape in most states, even if it's her boyfriend. So if your daughter is 14 having sex with her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend, that technically could be rape in most every state in the country. I'm not sure you wanna prosecute her boyfriend if she really likes him, if you find out they had sex, but I'm just letting you know. If indeed it was an adult, let's say it was her 30 year old soccer coach, that's definitely gonna be sexual abuse of a minor, and the statute of limitations on that can be much longer. Katie Koestner [00:27:25]: It can be entirely a whole lifetime. So the age does matter and the state does matter for how long you have to criminally prosecute. Luckily, luckily, Take Back the Night, the foundation has started. The, the Take Back the Night predates me by a lot. It's over 50 years old as a movement around the world to end sexual violence and support survivors. But over 20 years ago, I corralled all the event holders and created the foundation. But we, about 4 years ago, also put together something called the sexual assaults victims legal support hotline. So that is so important. Katie Koestner [00:28:02]: It's 1567 shatter for any dad listening. That's free. It's confidential, and it puts you through to an attorney who's steeped in this kind of information who can go over your rights and options. I just put that out there in case someone's all of a sudden interested. But that that's criminal. Then you also we have 2 more systems of reporting of justice. So I think of them as the 3 c's. We have the criminal system, then secondly, we have the civil system. Katie Koestner [00:28:30]: Civil is where let's say your daughter was assaulted by the soccer coach at school. She could potentially sue the school. You you know, you all could because of sexual assault of a minor and failure to protect her and all kinds of things. A civil suit, you usually just have 2 years. Again, there's some exceptions. The third one, though, is the campus reporting system. If it's a college, you have as long as the perpetrators affiliated with the college, you can report it and have some sort of adjudication. If it was your high school or elementary school or middle school, same deal. Katie Koestner [00:29:05]: There's also a school campus system. So remember, criminal, civil, and campus are three areas where you can report. And that legal support hotline I just mentioned, 567 shatter, is a great option to learn about any and all. The third thing so we did first is medical attention. 2nd is reporting. The third thing to tell her is emotional or long term support and healing. There's no expiration date. Obviously, that can be done anytime. Katie Koestner [00:29:33]: There's no one size fits all. It could be their rabbi. It could be their priest. It could be a professional rape crisis counselor. It could be online BetterHelp. It could be there's a million different ways to get emotional support, but it takes more than one person to heal. Meaning, the victim by themselves almost always benefits from having someone else to talk to. And sometimes the parent needs also support and counseling. Katie Koestner [00:29:57]: You're a secondary trauma victim. You're trying to help your daughter, and it can feel exhausting. So don't hesitate to do good self care for you and your partner along the way or your other children. You know, it can be so devastating and frustrating, and the spin out can include everything from drug addiction, alcohol addiction, suicide, eating disorders, like metal, all kinds of depression, it can be really rough. Bodily trauma of a sexual nature is just really hard to process. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:28]: One of the things that I guess from what you 2 were talking about is that education is important. And especially health and wellness education when it comes to our children's bodies and helping them to understand that. What would you say are some practical steps that fathers can take to educate their daughters about consent and what they should know for themselves as they go out into the world? Katie Koestner [00:30:53]: Well, some schools do a really good job of consent education. Many do not. But essentially, that was the whole if anyone researches back into my case, when I was raped at William and Mary, the entire country and William and Mary's policy had sexual assault and rape as only happening to women by definition because only women were property and rape was a crime of property. That's the history of it. You know, when you hear the phrase damaged goods, damaged goods basically meant a woman was no longer a virgin. She'd be more expensive to marry off, and that's where that phrase came from. And I was the one who came along at 30 3 years ago, Chris, and said, I'm not damaged goods. And if a man doesn't wanna marry me, I don't wanna marry him. Katie Koestner [00:31:37]: And why is rape the only crime where force is required? If I reached out and said, give me your money and you had your wallet in your hand and I just took it, I wouldn't have to you wouldn't have to say, well, she punched me to take it. If I took your wallet, I stole from you. Like, whether or not you, like, had a very nice gold watch on, you could be, you know, wearing expensive clothes. No one could say, oh, you must give away lots of money and be rich. Why would you miss your wallet? You were asking for it. But I go back to consent because I helped rewrite the law to say it should be simply the lack of consent, not the action of resistance. And dads, dads, dads, that's critical. Your daughter doesn't have to fight off her attacker, and she doesn't even have to say no even though that would be great, I'm sure, in your minds. Katie Koestner [00:32:26]: But if she freezes up and doesn't feel like she can do anything and just lays there, that's still not consent. So it's really important for you to validate. Like, don't rank how she responded. Like, if only you had been, like, superwoman and had out your gold braces and your golden whip and, like, your steel belt, you know, and gotten the guy. Like, who cares? It's over. It was still wrong. It's not, like, more wrong or less wrong. It's just wrong wrong. Katie Koestner [00:32:53]: So all rape is wrong wrong. There's not like, oh my gosh. I here's a fun story, Chris. In all the education I do, one time I was talking to some boys in high school, and one was like, but, you know, what if she leads me on? And I just get it's I'm I'm at the point in a return. And I said, oh my gosh. That's so that sounds so interesting. Like so let's just run this through. Like, imagine you're over at your girlfriend's house and you're making out on the sofa because her parents are gone out for the weekend or out of town, like, for dinner or something. Katie Koestner [00:33:22]: They're out out, and you 2 were just going at it, and you're at this point, you know, return. And then all of a sudden, at the back door, you hear the jingling of the keys. The parents are unexpectedly home. I said, young man, I know exactly what you would do. You'd holler out, like, mister and missus Smith, you think you could just wait outside for a couple of minutes? I'm almost done with your daughter, and it's the point of no return for me, and I just can't stop right now. You know, like, the absurdity. Right? Like, any there's no such thing. We're not animals. Katie Koestner [00:33:50]: We can totally stop. Even if it's uncomfortable, awkward, embarrassing, horrible, there's no such thing as we're not out of our mind and body having sex. So I think it's really important to tell your daughter, like, if all of a sudden it's hurting, if it doesn't feel good, whatever her I don't know what the values of your dads are, but whatever they are, she should know. There's no point at which it's too late to say no. I say when someone said to me, Chris, once, they said, when is rape regret? And I said regret is when you change your mind afterwards. Rape is when you change your mind in the middle and they don't stop. If you change your mind after after and say, I shouldn't have done that, that's regret. It's not rape. Katie Koestner [00:34:31]: If you change your mind, 5 minutes in, if they keep going, it's still rape. So I think those are those are nuanced things for dads to hear, but I think if they can talk to their daughter, and that sounds like a way awkward conversation for most dads, but just put the podcast on again. This is sex ed consent ed 101. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:49]: You know, the other thing you just talked about was the fact that healing takes time, and it takes effort. And it's it's, something that's going to be a multi year entire life situation. So talk to me about the process that you had to go through, but also that what you tell to other survivors in regards to what it looks like to regaining power, regaining your life, but also are there things that dads can do to be able to support their daughters on that journey? Katie Koestner [00:35:21]: I'll start with the last part of your question first. Things dads should not do is take away agency. Meaning, here's the difference and nuance there. Taking away agency, it means not doing everything for them or telling them what to do. Taking weight, that's taking away agency. Giving agency means let's make a list together and let's do the research. If you're up for it, help me do the research. If not, I'm the dad. Katie Koestner [00:35:47]: I I'll take this on. I'll make the whole list of options that I can find. Then I'll review them. Let's think about them together. The best thing a dad can do or anyone could do is start to collaborate and build more control and power and agency back into the victim. The more you here here's a good small point. If they really want to try if you wanna put the guy in jail, let let's say the traditional dad reaction, we need to put him in jail. You know what? The average rapist rapes 12 to 17 times before going to jail. Katie Koestner [00:36:19]: The conviction rape on sexual violence is the lowest of any crime. This is the tough reality. It's fine. So jail time is not likely. However, the entire process of seeking power and control and some sort of I tried is that in and of itself has to be honored. And so often, I think I hate to ever stereotype men, but men sometimes get caught up on the outcome instead of the process. Men sometimes wanna come up with the answer instead of talk it through. You know, that's a total stereotype. Katie Koestner [00:36:52]: Women are like, I just wanna talk to you about this. I don't need an answer, and I wanna get men better at like, I'm very outcome driven, Chris. Like, seriously, like, I'm just one on the SAT. I'm a math girl. I'm a science girl. I like the data. I like to crunch the numbers. I like to win. Katie Koestner [00:37:09]: I like to be successful. I like to speak in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people. You know, I'm very, very driven. So but I also like the process because what I did helped. So I'll go back now to the other part of your question. So dads should sit with the process. Don't take away the agency. Don't provide the outcome. Katie Koestner [00:37:27]: Don't get to the finish line. Let your daughter run the marathon herself. She's got to. However, what happened in my world was a little unique because there was no name for what happened to me. So I literally had to research everything old school before the Internet, go to the library, get some books, read law books at the law school at William and Mary. I did what I could because I was confident enough in every aspect of my life that I could do this. And I got there in high school and in middle school. Like, I had already felt like the one good thing I will say my parents did is they they're like, do everything. Katie Koestner [00:38:04]: They always said you're never good enough, but they were they were also like, do everything. They never limited what I could do except for going to MIT. I wanted to go to MIT. Sorry. Well, they said we don't have enough money for MIT, and there's not enough girls there. That's what my mom said. Anyway, that aside, I think what helped me so much was I learned and I taught and I sat in it and I did everything. I changed laws. Katie Koestner [00:38:27]: I tested on in Capitol Hill. If you read that Time Magazine, you'll see me testifying on Capitol Hill when I'm only 18 years old. I made a movie with HBO about my story. No one helped me. I just did it. I went to New York City to get that picture taken. I I I debated the vice president of my my college on Larry King Live when he was alive. I stunk at it. Katie Koestner [00:38:47]: I was a terrible debater. I went and I did and I flew and I tried and I talked to other survivors. I became a rape crisis counselor. I answered that hotline from 11 to 7 AM while I was in college. I immersed myself in the pain of myself and others by full immersion, and I won't say I deleted everything else. I'm very lucky. I still was getting a's and still going to classes and still am doing everything else. But I think that by burying things, we hurt more. Katie Koestner [00:39:17]: The wound does not heal with a patch. The wound heals when we put it in full sunlight and we we just go with it. And who cares? Like, that's a great scar. You got through it. You survived, and you went on. For a while, I wanna go back one thing. Your daughter might go through a phase. Why in the blank did this have to happen to me? Is there something wrong with me? And you've simply gotta tell her it happens to a lot of people. Katie Koestner [00:39:42]: It's not you. You're unfortunately, my dear, you're not special. It happens to 25% of women. So it's just you were one of those, but let's makes it had to happen for you. Let's why? Let's do something with this. Let's make it into something more. Let's make it part of who you are in a positive way. And and and I would and here's a way that I think about that. Katie Koestner [00:40:02]: If someone you care a lot about in your life dies, like your grandmother, your auntie, you don't say when are you gonna get over it. That pain, that horrible gap in your heart, no one says, when are you gonna stop missing your grandma? That's wrong. Big losses in life, you're like, how do you honor her? Big losses, we honor them if we're on the right path. We figure out what's glorious about that, about her, about that experience, and what goes forward. That's the way to to spin anything. And and and and even for the dads who fortunately, hopefully, don't have daughters in distress, start teaching her how to spin everything that's bad into positive as fast as possible. Get over it. It's not you. Katie Koestner [00:40:43]: It's them. How do I navigate a different path? If I don't like what I'm on, how do I change the lanes? That is resiliency. I'll say, like now I'll also say this for any dad who's still listening to me. Your daughter's I have a 14 year old intern on my team. She is magnificent. She helps with my podcast, and I mentor, if you have a daughter who wants to kick butt in the world, join the Take Back the Night team. We have volunteers across even all the way to Kenya. We have Benter who does our like, it's so cool and amazing. Katie Koestner [00:41:15]: We empower every single woman, and and we teach them business skills. And if your daughter can't like, how about flourishing with fabulous, like, international global women, young women? Like, we have amazing women. I would our 14 year old is the youngest volunteer, but my gosh, we have a team of, like, 50. They're so we put them on teams. Like, your daughter should be around, like, if she's on into sports. Like, what team is she on? Don't let her isolate. Don't let her find her heart just in one boy. Like, put her around amazing people who are gonna push her, help her thrive. Katie Koestner [00:41:57]: That's gonna make her really amazing. So I'm just plugging, like, I don't care if it's Take Back the Night. I do care if it's something. Just find some way to put around, not just singing. I know. Not pooh poohing singing. I can't sing at all. I can't do singing. Katie Koestner [00:42:15]: I can't do car wheels. But I I think, you know, it's putting around people who will push her in a positive way. Honor her spirit, push her enough to be ready to take criticism in a positive way. Like, all of the things you want. Right? Like, those are all great things. They're very idealistic. If you can't tell, I'm very positive that the glass is always almost full. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:40]: Well, Katie, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey, but sharing all of this amazing insight today. If people wanna find out more about you, your story, your organization, where should they go to find out more? Katie Koestner [00:42:53]: Love, love that. First of all, believe it or not, I still go around the country and speak. I just got back from speaking in Nantucket. How fun was that? I took a ferry to my speech. That's the first time I could say that. But I think I love speaking, but I also have a team of speakers. So if you want more education in your community, that is either Google Katie Koestner, my name, or you can go right to campus outreach services, and that's education and awareness. There's tons of ideas there. Katie Koestner [00:43:23]: 2nd idea, take back the night. We are always eager to have more volunteers, more financial support. Go read about the hotline and coolness. You could even plan a take back the night event in your own community. We have a whole team who will help you. It's just a one day event of awareness. You could do a bike race. You can do a walk. Katie Koestner [00:43:42]: You can do a vigil. You can have it at your church. You can have it at your school. You can have it at your business, but an event is a way of honoring and bringing awareness. So I encourage everybody to do that as well. But thank you, Chris. This is fabulous. This is so much fun. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:58]: Well, I truly appreciate you being here today. Thank you for all the work that you're doing to support so many across the globe, and I wish you all the best. Katie Koestner [00:44:06]: Absolutely. Take care. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:08]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along. And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:57]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:06]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:59]: Be the best dad you can be.

An Educational Journey Turned Parenting Mission Jen Lumanlan's shift from a sustainability consulting career to a focus on parenting wasn't incidental. After grappling with the challenges of raising her own daughter, she realized that academic research on child development could serve as a guiding light. This led her to pursue master's degrees in psychology and education, and subsequently, to the creation of her podcast and book. Her primary goal? To leverage her learnings to support other parents facing similar challenges. Challenging Conventional Discipline Understanding the Power Dynamics at Play At the heart of Jen's approach is the critique of conventional discipline methods such as timeouts and consequences. According to Jen, these methods often perpetuate harmful power dynamics. They emphasize a power-over relationship, where the authority figure (the parent) uses their power to correct or control the child. These traditional methods can breed resentment and a lack of genuine understanding. Exploring Alternative Strategies The Shift From Control to Collaboration So, what can parents do instead? Jen advocates for strategies that satisfy both the parent's and the child's needs, fostering a power-sharing relationship. For example, during conflict, she suggests addressing the situation outside of the moment of crisis. Proactive discussions about recurring issues like tooth brushing or bedtime can pave the way for more harmonious solutions. By understanding and meeting each other's needs, both parties can find agreeable strategies, reducing resistance and conflict. Identifying and Meeting Needs The Two-Way Street of Parenting Needs Parents often neglect their own needs in the face of their child's demands, but Jen emphasizes that both parent and child have valid needs. Strategies should aim to fulfill both. She introduces the concept of "cherry needs" — the most critical needs that recur for both parents and children. For instance, a child's need for autonomy can be met with choices that do not compromise the parent's essential needs, such as brushing teeth in a different room. Problem-Solving in Real-Time Navigating Tantrums and Meltdowns Tantrums and meltdowns are common challenges, and Jen offers peace and empathy as the best tools. Understanding the underlying needs that prompt such behaviors and addressing them proactively or with empathetic responses in the heat of the moment can defuse tension. Validating the child's feelings and needs even during a meltdown can lead to quicker resolutions and more trust. Shifting Dynamics with Teens It's Never Too Late to Transform Relationships Parents of older children might assume it's too late for change, but Jen underscores that it's never too late. Even with tweens and teens, shifting from a power-over to a power-sharing dynamic can salvage and improve the relationship. She proposes using phrases like “I'm worried that…” to express needs and concerns, fostering mutual respect and understanding. Healing From Our Own Childhood Breaking Cycles Through Self-Reflection Many of our parenting triggers stem from our own childhood experiences. By unpacking and healing these old traumas, parents can become more conscious and connected. This self-awareness prevents past negative patterns from repeating, helping parents respond more thoughtfully rather than reacting on impulse. Broader Societal Change Raising Children Who Challenge Injustice Jen believes that by fostering power-sharing relationships at home, we can equip children to challenge systemic injustices. When children learn to view all individuals' needs as equally important, they carry this perspective into broader societal contexts, questioning and challenging systems of domination and inequality. Jen Lumanlan's insights offer valuable guidance in our quest to raise empathetic, empowered children. By shifting from control to collaboration and addressing the deeper needs within our family dynamics, we not only nurture healthier relationships but also contribute to a more just world. Tune into this enlightening episode of Dads with Daughters for more practical wisdom on transformative parenting. Connect with Jen and deepen your understanding of parenting dynamics at Your Parenting Mojo. TRANSCRIPT Dr.Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. I love being on this journey with you where we have an opportunity to be able to learn together about what it takes to be that dad that we wanna be. And all of us wanna be that those engaged dads, those dads that are there for our kids. And it takes work. It takes time. It takes effort to be a quality parent, and it takes resources. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can bring different resources to you, different different opportunities for you to learn and grow. The the biggest thing is that you're open to learning. And that's what I hope for me for you every week when we're talking. This week, we got another great guest with us. Jen Loominlan is with us today. And Jen hosts the Your Parenting Mojo podcast, which was named the best research parenting podcast by Lifehacker. It's been downloaded over 3,000,000 times. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: After attending Berkeley and Yale and following a traditional career path in sustainability consulting, Jen found that parenting was her toughest challenge yet. She went back to school for a master's degree in psychology focused on child development and another in education and trained as a coactive coach to share what she learned with other parents. She's an author of the book Parenting Beyond Power, How to Use Connection and Collaboration to Transform Your Family and the world. And today, we're gonna be talking with her about her own experiences and these experiences with the book and some of the things that you can take out of this book to help you to be that parent that you wanna be. Jen, thanks so much for being here today.  Jen Lumanlan [00:02:16]: Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:16]: It is my pleasure. I mentioned the fact that you've got this book that you've put out into the world. As an author myself, I know how much time, effort, passion has to go into putting a book out into the world. And it is a lot of time and effort, and you have to have a passion for it to be able to get to that end point. So tell me the story. What what was it about? You know, I introduced you. You you had this career, but you said, you know what? I wanna go back and I want to do do more work on education, work with parents. But what made you decide that you wanted to put all this into a book that was gonna help others? What drew you to that final point? Jen Lumanlan I think I started the podcast because, you know, I had no idea how to parent. And I didn't have the most amazing parenting role models myself either, and so I realized I could look to academic research to help me understand how to go about raising my daughter. And so I kind of figured, you know, I I should get some education on this so that I can put some kind of guardrails around it and know I'm not missing anything huge, and that's what led to the master's degrees. And and then I was kinda thinking, well, it's kinda silly to do all this learning for myself and not share it. So I created the podcast to share that with other people. And then I over the course of of sort of exploring a lot of topics on the podcast that we have over 200 episodes now that are all research based. And I think, you know, it became really clear that I was hearing similar challenges from parents over and over again. And and they're kind of variations on the phrase, how do I get my child to Right? How do I get my kid to put their shoes on in the morning, to eat their breakfast, to stay at the dinner table, to get in the bath, to stay in bed at the end of the night? You know? And that's just the toddler set. Jen Lumanlan [00:03:59]: The challenges expand from there. So, what I realized was the the tools that I had learned from others and kind of adapted with putting my own spin on them were really helping parents to kind of address those challenges, those daily challenges on a day to day basis. And at the same time, they also help us to address some of the big challenges that we face out in the world that are related to kind of being in power over relationships. And it turns out that our kids learn a lot about power from our relationships with them and when we're using our power to get them to because it seems like that's the only thing we can do. Right? We just wanna get through the day. It's not we want to use our our power over our kids. We're just trying to get through the day. And we use our power because it seems like that's the only option we have because that's what was modeled for us when we were kids. Jen Lumanlan [00:04:50]: And if we can instead see how to be in a power sharing relationship with our kids, then our kids stop resisting us because you don't resist when your needs are met and when, you know, when you're not being sort of dominated by somebody else. And and also that will help us to address some of the social challenges we face that have their origins in these power based relationships. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:11]: So let's talk a little bit about power because in your book, you do talk about the that that power dynamic, and you challenge conventional discipline methods like timeouts and consequences. And you suggest that they perpetuate harmful power dynamics like you just were mentioning. So what are some other alternative strategies that parents can use when they feel overwhelmed, or when they feel that their child's behavior is especially difficult? Jen Lumanlan [00:05:38]: So the I mean, firstly, the challenge with those conventional discipline methods. I mean, if you ever put a child in time out, right, do they come out of time out kind of contrite and ready to apologize for the thing that they did wrong and they never do it again? Right? No. They usually kinda resent being in time out. They come out of it kinda pissed at you, and they do it again. Right? They do the same thing over again. Same with consequences. We can we can withdraw a privilege of some kind. We can punish a child in some way, and we can call it a, quote, unquote, logical consequence because it seems like the punishment is sort of related to the thing they did wrong. Jen Lumanlan [00:06:12]: But, essentially, it is a punishment. It is us using our power to say your behavior is not acceptable to me. And until that changes, I'm going to withdraw this thing that you care about. Right? We are using our power to to make both of those things happen. And so what what I want to make sure that that your listeners understand is that I am not advocating that we parents suddenly say, okay. Whatever you want. Totally fine. Totally cool. Jen Lumanlan [00:06:32]: Right? I'm just here to exist to enable you to live your best life. No. What I'm saying is that both parent and child have needs. And the way that we use the word need in our culture is a little bit odd. Right? Like, I might say, I can't play with you right now. I need to make dinner. And needing to make dinner is not actually a need. That's a strategy that I'm using to meet my need for food, for nourishment. Jen Lumanlan [00:07:01]: Right? And there are a 100 other strategies we could use. I could toss a pizza in the oven. We could go out and get dinner. I could ask someone to bring us dinner. We could have cereal for dinner. So many different strategies we could use to meet that need. And so what I'm saying is that you, parents, are a whole person with needs, and you deserve to get those needs met. And your child is a whole person with needs, and your child deserves to get those needs met. Jen Lumanlan [00:07:26]: And the vast majority of the time, preferably if we're not dealing with it in the moment. Right? We're not we're not waiting in for this thing that our kid does over and over and over again, and we're not waiting for that to happen. Then, okay, needs? What what am I supposed to do? Right? Instead, we can actually address that outside of that difficult moment. We can say, hey. I noticed we've been having a hard time with tooth brushing lately. Can we have a chat about that? Because I'd really like for that to be different. I'd like for our evenings to be different. Would you like for our evenings to be different? Chances are the kid probably does. Jen Lumanlan [00:07:53]: Because if this is a big deal to you, then, you know, there have been time outs and all kinds of stress around toothbrushing. And then, okay, so we're we're trying to understand how each person is feeling. We're trying to understand what each person needs. And what the need is determines the strategy that we can use to help them meet the need. So I'm happy to dig further into that if you'd like, but I'm curious if you have any questions about that aspect. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]: No. I'd love to delve a little bit deeper into needs because I know that in the book, you do talk about the importance of meeting both the parents and the child's needs, like you were talking about to reduce that conflict. So how can parents begin to identify and prioritize their own needs without feeling guilty or neglecting their children's? Jen Lumanlan [00:08:32]: So it's super common for the parents that I work with to say to me, before I started working with you, I didn't even know that I had needs. Because we didn't learn this when we were kids. Right? And so just to be clear on what I'm talking about related to needs, I'm talking about things like rest, like self care, like respect, which is not necessarily having everybody do everything you say. Right? It can be, like, holding someone in esteem and high regard. And we all want respect, and our kids want respect too. It's things like ease. And we just want parenting to be a little bit easier for collaboration, for harmony with our kids. Right? These are the kinds of things I'm talking about related to needs. Jen Lumanlan [00:09:10]: And so if we take tooth brushing as an example, right, could imagine if tooth brushing has been stressful because my kid has been resisting it. Let's say my kid is a toddler. My kid's actually 10 by now. But let's say it's a toddler, and I might think, okay. What is my need in this? Right? I might I might have been saying to my child, I need you to brush your teeth. That's not actually my need. My need is for protection of her health and safety. It is for a little bit of ease and collaboration and harmony in the evenings at the end of a long day. Jen Lumanlan [00:09:39]: And if you're wanting to, like, explore what needs are, there's a a list of needs in the back of of the book. And there's also a quiz that I offer at your parentingmojo.com, which allows you to go through it's your parentingmojo.comforward/ quiz, and you can answer some simple questions about your child's behavior and get to your child's most important needs that come up over and over and over again. And you may well find that some of those are coming up in tooth brushing. So if your child has what we call a cherry need, right, there's the cherry on top of the cupcake, which is the 3 to 5 needs that are coming up over and over and over again. For many toddlers, autonomy is right up there at the top. They want to be able to have some kind of say over something that feels important to them. Underneath that, we have the frosting needs, which is the next 3 to 5 most important. Underneath that is kind of all of the other needs. Jen Lumanlan [00:10:26]: And so we're always firstly looking at what are those cherry needs, and that quiz is gonna help you to understand what your child's cherry needs are. And so even if your child isn't speaking yet, right, if your child is too young to speak, if your child doesn't speak, if you've done this quiz, you can say, okay. What is it an autonomy? Is it possible the child wants to have some kind of say over what's happening here? How can I make that happen? Right? You're not giving the child necessarily the choice, do you want to brush teeth or not? But what kind of toothpaste do you wanna use? What kind of toothbrush do you wanna use? For us, oh my goodness. It it turned out to be I my daughter wanted to decide where we brushed. For a solid 6 months, we brushed in the living room. And so I might initially think, no. She should have brushed her teeth in the in the bathroom. That's where teeth are brushed. Jen Lumanlan [00:11:10]: Right? But if I can find the cognitive flexibility to say, alright. What are my needs? Her health and safety, peace, ease, harmony. Does brushing teeth in the living room meet my needs? Yes. It does. Does brushing teeth in the living room meet her need for autonomy? Yes. It does. Then is there a reason why we can't brush teeth in the living room? No. There is not. Jen Lumanlan [00:11:28]: And so that's what we did. And so the critical, critical piece here is that when it's a need for autonomy, right, it's not it's not the brushing teeth in the living room. It's some magical solution that will work for every child. If your child has a need for comfort, right, if you've been holding them down and forcing the toothbrush in their mouth, saying, let's brush in the living room is not gonna address that. And so we have to know what is the child's need, and then we find strategies to meet their need. And it feels good to have our needs met, and everybody wants to have it happen. And so that's how it helps us to get both of our needs met. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:59]: So another thing that your books talk about, and really what you just kind of framed seems to fit in with it, is one of the key concepts you talk about is your problem solving approach, and it it basically what you just described. Are there other parts though of that approach that you could walk us through that would allow for someone to get a better sense of what the approach kind of how an adult would frame that approach, and also how a parent might then apply it to other challenges like tantrums or other situations like that. Jen Lumanlan [00:12:34]: What I want to have parents see is that very, very often, these are not isolated instances. When your child is having tantrums, chances are it's kind of about the same thing over and over and over again. And so that represents a huge opportunity because you don't have to wait for the next tooth brushing session to address this. You can address this beforehand while everybody's calm, everybody's rested, everybody's fed, nobody's at the end of their rope. Right? That's the time ideally we want to address this. And that allows us to have more of a conversation. And even if your kid isn't talking yet, kids sense the difference between, you're gonna brush your teeth because I said so, because because I want what's good for you, and you have to brush your teeth so you don't get cavities, and all the reasons that we give them. And, oh my gosh, I really wish that this could be easier for both of us. Jen Lumanlan [00:13:22]: I'm trying to figure out how do we meet both of our needs here. Right? Kids know the difference between those two things. And even if you can't fully understand the child's need, they are often willing to come towards you because you're trying. But I also wanna give you an example of, like, in the moment the kid is already melting down. And so I'm thinking of a parent that I coached a while ago whose child was having this meltdown, and it was coming up because the child and the parent were having 1 on 1 playtime in the afternoon, and it's coming time to go and pick the older child up from school. And so the kid has, like, a you know, the kid the the younger child who's at home with the parent is having a fallout on the floor, wailing, hitting, biting, all the rest of it meltdown that's happening. And the parent is trying to reason with the child. Right? Come on. Jen Lumanlan [00:14:06]: It's time to go. We do this every day. Why is this so hard? We already had playtime. Let's go. And if you've ever had a meltdown yourself with your partner, with anyone else who's in your life, if you imagine your partner coming back and saying, but I told you a 100 times, this is how we do it. We can sort of get a sense for what it might be like to receive that from our parent. And what do we want instead? What we really want is someone to try to see it from our perspective. And so what I asked that parent to do and what she ended up doing was when the next time the child had the the the meltdown because they didn't have a chance to kinda talk about it beforehand, the parent kinda went in with, oh my goodness. Jen Lumanlan [00:14:46]: I hear you. It's so hard to transition out of playtime with me. Right? Because it's so much fun, and you love it so much. And now we're going to pick up your sibling, and for the rest of the afternoon, you're gonna have to share me. You're gonna have to wait. You can't just have the thing that you want right at the moment that you want it. Is that what's going on for you? And the kid is like, yes. And we're done. Jen Lumanlan [00:15:05]: And there's no more hitting, and there's no more biting, and there's no more flailing on the floor because the child was heard. And so I'm not saying this magically fixes every tantrum in your child's life, but I can tell you that when you see these things coming, when you see, okay. Yeah. Every day at this time, my kid has a tantrum. Why is that? What need are they trying to meet? Can I help them meet that need? That takes care of, like, a massive chunk of them up front, so you never even get into the tantrum in the first place. And then once you're in it, then the empathy the okay. What's really going on for you? Can I sit with you in this hard time that you're having? And that's where you find the real beauty of, yes. I just wanted to be heard. Jen Lumanlan [00:15:45]: I just wanted somebody to acknowledge that it's hard for me to to stop playing with you and have to share you for the rest of the evening. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]: So a lot of the examples you gave were of younger children. And in a perfect world, I would have loved to have had this book when my kids were really young. So if someone is hearing this and they're saying, I've got a tween, I've got a teen, and our relationship's not the best, we're in this fighting, we were fighting together, we're not seen eye to eye, you know, we're, you know, we're isolated, you know, we're we're not where we need to be. Are there things that they can do with this problem solving approach that they can start putting in place even though their children are not at that young age that they can start using right away? Jen Lumanlan [00:16:28]: Yes. It's never ever, ever too late to do this. I mentioned that my parenting role models were not the best, and I've thought about this a lot actually. And, you know, what would have happened I guess I do wanna be clear. You know, they were doing the best they could with the tools that they had. And if one of them had learned these tools and had tried to make some kind of shift, even in my late teenage years, would that have made a difference? Yes. It absolutely would have. And so where I would try to start with this kind of thing is to to try to kind of back off where you see that you're using power to get your child to change their behavior. Jen Lumanlan [00:17:04]: Not back off completely, but try to use a simple phrase. And that phrase is, I'm worried that dot dot dot. So if your, you know, your your kid is asking to do something, they wanna go out with friends, they whatever whatever is the thing that you're thinking about saying no to. That previously would you would have used your power, you would have made sure that they didn't do the thing that you that they're asking to do, that they really want do, that you don't want them to do. And so instead of of doing that, we can say, I'm worried that you're not gonna be safe. Right? I'm worried that this specific thing is going to happen. How can we make sure this thing doesn't happen? Because what what what the I'm worried that does is it helps me to articulate my need. I am worried for your safety. Jen Lumanlan [00:17:46]: If I can know that certain parameters are in place that mean that I think you're gonna be safe, then, yeah, I'm willing to say yes to this thing. Then I don't have to use my power over you to try and get you to change your behavior. I think that what what parents you're describing or seeing is I get actually reading for the first time doctor Thomas Gordon's book on, parent effectiveness training, and he talks about power and influence. And when we've used power over our children for a long time, we tend to find we have less influence as they get older because people don't like being influenced by people who have used power over them. And so if we want to have influence over our children as they get older and and they realize, you know what? You don't you actually don't have any power over me anymore. I'm getting bigger to the point where you can't physically intimidate me, and once I have the car keys, right, I'm done. I'm out of here. You can't control me anymore. Jen Lumanlan [00:18:37]: And if we still want to be able to influence our children at that point, we have to be willing to give up some of that power, and I'm worried that is a great place to start with that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:47]: One of the other things that you talk about in the book is that many of the triggers, the triggers that all of us have internally, the things that set us off in our own parenting journey with our kids stem from how we were raised. How can parents begin to unpack and heal from their own childhood experiences to become more conscious, connected parents? Jen Lumanlan [00:19:09]: Well, that could be another episode by itself. So, I mean, there's a lot there. And what parents that I work with tend to find is that they are most triggered by their child's behavior when they when their child gets to an age where they were having a hard time with their parents. So there's, you know, all the typical toddler stuff that is just hard when the toddler is resisting for the first time, and we used to resist as well. Right? We didn't like it either, being told what to do and that my way is the only way and that even if we try and kind of be nice about it, that ultimately, the kid's gonna do things the way that we want them to do. We didn't like that either. We pushed back against it. And, eventually, we learned there's no point in pushing back because the parent's gonna win eventually. Jen Lumanlan [00:19:50]: And so you know, most people find that stage difficult for that reason. And then as we go through life, there was probably an age where we kinda butted up against our parents for for whatever reason. And then when our child gets to that age, then we remember all those struggles. It's like they're they're right here again. They're right here with us, and they remind us of the hard time that we had, the ways that we were dominated by our parents. And I think this, it's especially difficult actually for parents who have done a little bit of work, who are trying to do things differently with their child. Because when their child is doing something the parent finds difficult, there's this kind of tug of war happening in their heads. There's this, I know what my values are. Jen Lumanlan [00:20:31]: I know how I want to raise you. I want to be in this power sharing relationship with you, but I would have been punished for doing the thing you just did. If I never spoken to my parent like that, right, they would have hit me. And so it's like there's this this massive, you know, you can imagine this tug of war literally happening inside of our heads. And and it's happening in this moment when our kid is doing something we told them not to do. And the amount of mental capacity it takes to be able to navigate that and also be calm for your child and show up for your child is is overwhelming, and so we snap. And so that's why I teach a whole 10 week workshop called taming your triggers on where does this stuff come from, really digging deep and to start healing those things so that we don't have to carry around the weight of that hurt every day. And, also, really digging deep into the the tools that I've been mentioning that are described in the book and, like, how do we actually use them when I'm feeling triggered? Right? How do I how do I create a pause? Because that's that's the critical phase for especially for people who are triggered, is creating that pause between the thing my child does and my reaction. Jen Lumanlan [00:21:42]: And once you have that pause, then you have a moment to be able to say, okay. What are my values here? What's really important to me? What is my need? Okay. This is it. And so the thing that's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna be x rather than, you know, whatever it is that currently flies out in the moment that our child does this thing right now. Jen Lumanlan [00:22:00]: And so many times, it is that latter aspect. Jen Lumanlan [00:22:03]: And so often, it's your parents' voice that comes out. You're like, where did that come from? Yes. Because our parents raised us using these tools. They they dominated us. Even if they didn't mean to, even if they were doing the best that they could, they dominated us. And so when we're in these stressed moments, the thing that comes out is the thing that was modeled for us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:22]: You know, the final thing that I think that I'd mentioned is that in your book, you really talk about transforming the family dynamic and that you say that through transforming this dynamic within our own homes, we can contribute to what you call a broader societal change. So how do you envision parents using these parenting tools to raise children who are capable of challenging system systematic injustices in the world around them? Jen Lumanlan [00:22:48]: Yeah. I mean, I see it happening already in the parents that I work with. And there's an example in the book of a parent who parent Maria and her her daughter, Isabelle. And, you know, Isabelle is one of those kids who, from the get go, knew exactly what she wanted and would scream if you held her the wrong way and would refuse to put her shoes on as a toddler. Right? Even even to go to a a nice outing. Right? The parents are like, okay. Put your shoes on. Well, no. Jen Lumanlan [00:23:13]: You told me to do it. No. I'm not doing it. And they stand there and stand off for half an hour, and the kid's not doing anything, and and they never make it out. And so Maria very quickly realized that using these power over tools was just gonna result in endless repetitions of that situation and started using these power sharing tools. And the transformation in their own relationship has been really profound. I mean, this is a kid who, I think Maria actually sprained her ankle in the house one day, and Isabelle stepped over her and said, you know, what? What's for lunch? No empathy, no compassion, no nothing. And within a period of months, right, we see empathy, we see compassion start coming out. Jen Lumanlan [00:23:57]: We see the kids all around the table, and some of the kids are teasing mom. And and Isabelle says, I'm looking at mom, and it seems like she's not up for being teased right now. Right? Reading mom's cues and being able to say, you know what? I'm not seeing that that mom's really into this. And so that's just within the family. And then we look outside the family, and Isabel sees that there's a kid in the school who has ADHD and is being bullied by the peer group that Isabelle is a part of, and Isabelle says, you know what? No. I'm not I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna be part of this group and goes over and makes friends with a kid with ADHD. So that's, you know, that's a super small example. Jen Lumanlan [00:24:32]: And then we start to extrapolate that out to other systems in the world. Right? If we think about things like racism, it's ultimately a power over system. It's me saying, my right to exist as a white person, to be comfortable as a white person is more important than people of color's right to exist in their whole selves. And what if we were to say, you know what? Your needs are just as important as my needs. I don't believe that these systems of domination out in the world can exist when we all perceive each other's needs to be equally as important as our own. And so, yes, it's gonna take some time. Right? This can't be the only way we go about doing these things. Parents are not responsible in themselves by, you know, just alone for solving these societal challenges. Jen Lumanlan [00:25:16]: We also need lots of other work as well. But I truly believe that seeing each other's needs as as important as our own is a critical piece of making the world a place where everybody can thrive. Jen Lumanlan [00:25:30]: I really appreciate you sharing everything that you've been sharing today. And if people want to find out more about you, your podcast, your book, where's the best place for them to go? Jen Lumanlan [00:25:40]: So everything I do flows through your parentingmojo.com. I would definitely advise parents to go check out the quiz at your parentingmojo.comforward/quiz. Because once you know your child's needs, everything just gets so much easier. Because as soon as you see resistance, you can say, okay. Where is this coming from? Is it a need? Oh, yes. It's autonomy. It's connection. It's, you know, whatever that cherry need is. Jen Lumanlan [00:26:03]: And then you can very quickly find the strategies that meet their need instead of having to look through the list of 50 needs and say, oh, which one is it? So I would definitely recommend that. I am on Facebook and Instagram. I don't use them super much, but I am there as well. And so, yeah, subscribe to podcast episodes as well, through the through the website. And the book is at Parenting Beyond Power. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:25]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of this today for what you're putting out into the world and what you're doing to help parents be better parents, and I wish you all the best. Jen Lumanlan [00:26:32]: Thanks so much, Chris. It was great to be with you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong, empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:32]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a  

Exploring the Role of Fathers in Pregnancy and Beyond In a heartwarming and insightful episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis chats with Matthew Morris, who shares his unique journey into fatherhood. Through experiences that span 15 countries, Morris does more than recount personal stories; he advocates for systemic changes in how fathers are supported during the pregnancy journey. Here's a deeper dive into the profound topics discussed in this enriching episode. The Discovery of Parenthood Matthew Morris and his wife Shannon found out they were expecting their first child in the most memorable way. Following an offhand Mother's Day comment, a series of pregnancy tests confirmed the joyous news. As fate would have it, the couple discovered they were having a girl at a family gathering through a creative, heartwarming gender reveal—Matthew dyed his hair pink to share the news. A Journey Across Continents Before settling into parenthood, the adventurous couple decided to travel to 15 countries, immersing themselves in different cultures and learning global perspectives on pregnancy and childbirth. They planned their destinations whimsically; Brazil if a boy, Thailand if a girl, turning every step into an adventure. Their travel decisions were also influenced by significant life changes, including job losses and leaving active military duty. These pivotal moments pushed them forward into the next chapter of their lives. Navigating Healthcare and Birth The Morris's initial plan was to have their baby in Denmark, attracted by the progressive and cost-effective healthcare system. However, visa issues forced them back to the U.S. at 35 weeks pregnant. Matthew expressed strong critiques of the U.S. healthcare system's support for childbirth, and particularly its lack of resources for fathers. Ultimately, Shannon opted for a home birth in their Chicago apartment, supported by a midwife and a doula. This experience emphasized the importance of having a birthing team that values the father's role—Matthew even got to "catch" his daughter when she was born on February 2nd, 2024. Advocacy for Doulas and Progressive Paternity Leave From their global travels, Matthew observed how other countries treat pregnancy as a natural life event rather than a medical condition. He strongly advocates for the inclusion of doulas and midwives in insurance coverage, given their essential role in supporting both parents. His experiences highlighted the stark differences in parental leave policies worldwide, with some countries offering up to 24 months of government-supported leave—a far cry from the limited options in the U.S. The Birth of a Book Inspired by their journey, Matthew authored "The Partner's Purpose During Pregnancy." This practical guide offers straightforward, actionable steps to help expectant fathers get involved early and remain supportive throughout the pregnancy. Matthew's insights are geared towards making the transition into fatherhood less daunting, emphasizing the importance of preparation and involvement. Matthew Morris's journey into fatherhood is a testament to the importance of an involved and supportive parenting partner. His stories and insights underscore the need for systemic changes in how we support fatherhood and childbirth in the U.S. For fathers looking to connect and learn, resources like the "Dads with Daughters" podcast and the "Fatherhood Insider" offer invaluable support. For more from Matthew Morris, visit his website at www.thepartnerspurpose.com and follow him on Instagram at @thepartnerspurpose. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on this journey together. You know, I've got 2 daughters, you've got daughters, and we are all rolling in the same direction. We're all working to raise those strong, independent women that we want for our daughters to become. And hopefully, by now, after 250 episodes that we've had of this podcast, you know that we cannot do this alone. You and I cannot do this alone. We have to be able to rely on others. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: We have to be able to rely on working with one another to be able to lift each other up, to be able to learn and grow from each other, to be able to be the dads that we want to be. None of us have all of the tools, have all of the understanding. None of us have the perfect manual to follow to be that great dad that you want to be. But this podcast is here to be able to give you some, some hints, some tips, some things that you can do to be able to be that father that you want to be. So every week I bring you different guests, different people, people with different experiences, fathers, mothers, other people with resources that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way, provide you some tools for your toolbox, and help you to be able to become that father that you want to be. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Matthew Morris is with us today. Really excited to have him here. Christopher Lewis [00:01:49]: And we're gonna be talking about his own journey in becoming a father. And prior to becoming a father, he and his wife traveled to 15 countries to learn about parenthood and preparation for the birth of their daughter this past February. And, as he says, it's been a wild ride. And I think for every father, it's a wild ride when you lead up to to to fatherhood. And and once your daughter's here, it becomes an even greater ride, and it continues to go on throughout their lives. So I'm really excited to have him here today to talk about fatherhood, talk about his own journey and a little bit more, and to introduce him to you. Matthew, thanks so much for being here today. Matthew Morris [00:02:28]: Thank you, Christopher. Glad to be here. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Glad that you and I were able to connect and be able to have you talk about your own journey. And one of the first things that I always love to do is turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Matthew Morris [00:02:46]: My wife was standing at the top of the staircase, and I had just walked in the door, and I heard her scream. And my wife is a hardcore former United States Navy veteran, and she just, like, even keel all the time. Things do not rile her. And when I heard, bat, yeah, from the top of the staircase, I thought one of 2 things has happened. I said, okay. The house is being breached, and we are about to go on the defense, or she's pregnant. And sure enough, I look up, and she has 3 pregnancy tests in her hands like Wolverine. And I am I book it up the stairs, and she looks at me, and she's like, can you see the pink line? Can you see it? And mind you, my eyes aren't what they used to be. Matthew Morris [00:03:41]: I'm looking. I'm like, may maybe. I think so. And she goes, okay. You pee on 1, and then we'll know. And so shortly that was right after Mother's Day last year. And we were coming back from a wedding, and a woman had wished Shannon. She said happy Mother's Day. Matthew Morris [00:04:02]: And Shannon was like, I'm not a mom, and and we were walking away. And she kinda elbowed me and was like, wouldn't it be funny if and so I found out initially that that she was pregnant and went in a few weeks later to to verify everything. And then then we knew she was pregnant. Obviously, didn't know it was gonna be a little girl until a few months later. And the way that we found out that it was gonna be a little girl was we were we were at a family reunion with Shannon's family. It was a birthday party. And she gets an email, and we're we're sitting all sitting around kinda talking, talking. And, again, Shannon Shannon does not get super excited or super emotional about anything. Matthew Morris [00:04:50]: She's so just level headed. And and she puts her phone down. She looks at me and goes, we gotta go. And I said, why? What was going on? She goes, I know what we're gonna have. And I said, you mean for dinner? She goes, no. For the rest of our lives. And I said, okay. So we say goodbyes, and we go to the haircare store, and she buys a bottle of blue hair dye and a bottle of pink hair dye. Matthew Morris [00:05:22]: And we go to her parents' house, and we said, here's Matthew what we're gonna do. I'm gonna blindfold you. I'm gonna dye your hair one color or the other, and that is how we are going to do the gender reveal. And I have a very proud mohawk. And so if you go on her Instagram, there's a hilarious video of me blindfolded and Shannon with bright pink hair dye, and I take the blindfold off. And as soon as she hands me in the mirror, well, the sun's behind me, so I look in the mirror, and it just blinds me. So I can't even say I can't even tell what I'm looking at myself. And finally, I look around and I see it's pink, and then that's that's how we found out. Matthew Morris [00:06:04]: So that was kind of the the spark to our international journey. And now so we're in fast forward. That was a little over a year ago. We come back to now. Shannon and I made a bet. We have a little boy, we're going to Brazil. And if we have a little girl, we're gonna go to Thailand. And so right now, as we are wrapping up our adventure in Chicago, we are prepping to set sail for title. Matthew Morris [00:06:31]: And so that in between everywhere that we went from the beginning of 2023 to now. And we had to work through our personal endeavors. So January, February of 2023, Shannon was the tech layoff, and then we found out Shannon was pregnant in April of 2023, and then my separation from the marine corps came in June of 2023. And so we went from dual income, no kids, to dual unemployed with a baby on the way. And there is nothing that is a better catalyst for it's time to grab life by the horns than realizing, hey. We gotta figure out somehow to eat. And with that, and this comes into the fatherhood aspect, in our study of how childbirth and the medical system of childbirth in the United States is so far behind the rest of the world, unfortunately, we actually made the decision that we didn't wanna have the baby in the States. And that was a big part of why we left the country. Matthew Morris [00:07:45]: So our original plan was to have Maven in Denmark because Denmark, Sweden, that region has a extremely progressive and much safer approach to childbirth, and it's also significantly cheaper. Even with the cost of flying over there, living temporarily, and paying for the birth out of pocket, all of that would still have been cheaper than going through an uninsured birth in a US medical system. And the big challenge for us was coming off of active duty where almost all of your medical is paid for. When that came to an end, we didn't have health insurance for childbirth. And so what is normally nothing out of pocket with your insurance policy is between $3,025 total to have a baby in the United States. And in addition to that, the restrictions that are put on expecting moms when they are going through, the tests that are mandatory, the lack of education for dads and partners or birthing partners or whoever that person is that is supporting mom through her pregnancy. It's such an afterthought in the United States, which is what set us off on putting the information together for the partner's purpose during pregnancy. So fast forward a few months, our visas were not processed properly, and so we had to come back to the United States when Shannon was 35 weeks pregnant. Matthew Morris [00:09:31]: Well, the FAA won't let you travel at 36 weeks. So it was either be considered an illegal immigrant in a foreign country where we were having a baby or hightail it back to the United States and try and get connected with a midwife and doula team here, which fortunately, we did. So Shannon made the decision that she wanted to have a midwife and doula guided home birth. And so in our apartment in Lincoln Park, Chicago on February 2nd, 2024 at about 1:45 AM. She gave birth with no meds, no anesthesia, just the raw power of being the woman that she is to our daughter. And our birth team coached me through, and I actually got to catch my daughter. I was the quarterback before the hike and had her in my arms and then passed her to the midwife to do all of the immediate post birth things. And baby is healthy and just a a little tornado right now.   Matthew Morris [00:12:56]: And that divide and conquer team, I stand beside and advocate for work on it. And part of what we're also trying to advocate for is the use of doulas and midwives to be covered by general insurance. Because that is a big reason why so many people don't use them is because it's not considered a necessary medical expense. Well, my advocation to that is it is. It is just as important for the birthing or the pregnancy for me to have someone that I can ask questions of, that I can go to, that has experience so that Shannon didn't have to in dealing with with pregnancy brain or brain fog or exhaustion or all of the stress that your body and mind undergo during pregnancy, I had a person that I could ask these questions of, get the answers for so that she could focus on her health and the health of the baby. Christopher Lewis [00:13:57]: So I guess one of the questions that I would ask, with that whole journey is you took a number of months while she was going through that pregnancy, as you said, to be able to learn more about pregnancy, learn more about what happens in other countries to be able to create this book that you've created. And I know that you were out for, I think it was 41 weeks, you said you went to 15 countries. And I guess let's talk on the high level. What are some of the biggest things that you learned in going to those different countries, seeing what other countries do in comparison to what happens in the United States? Matthew Morris [00:14:38]: So saying we were mostly in Sangin. And by and large, there is a different mindset in the way that pregnancy and pregnant people are viewed. My biggest lesson, my biggest learning point was that pregnancy is not a disease. In the United States, we treat pregnancy as a disease. A pregnant mom is looked at as having symptoms. Well, symptoms are the byproduct of illness as opposed to what I viewed there was pregnancy is just part of life. It's the natural progression of all things culminating in birth, and because it's treated so much differently, you have significantly lower rates of things like postpartum depression, you have a lower infant mortality rate, you have a lower maternal mortality rate. The other piece is the recovery time. Matthew Morris [00:15:45]: So commonly referred to as maternity leave, paternity leave, and what's referred to as nesting leave. Now in the United States, all of your leave comes from the company. In these areas, the leave is partially compensated by a government organization. So if you take the longest that we saw was 24 months of total family leave, and that leave could be used by either parent, either during or after the pregnancy, and and there was no expiration date. So imagine in the states, you can't even fathom that. The longest publicly traded company that we have found in the United States is 18 weeks. And that's good. That's better for our area. Matthew Morris [00:16:44]: But the question that we continue to ask is if you are trying to advocate for employees to come back and remain loyal, what are the things that you're doing to incentivize them? And what stands out more than anything is companies that that advocate for more family recovery time. And that's the biggest difference that we've seen from overseas to the states.   Christopher Lewis [00:17:08]: I appreciate you sharing that. And now that you I have transitioned into being a dad, a dad of a daughter, I talk to a lot of dads that step into fatherhood. And fatherhoods can be scary just in its own right in being able to step into that new persona and being able to be there for your child. I hear from a lot of dads with daughters that there's a particular fear of being a father to a daughter. And I guess for you, what's your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter? Matthew Morris [00:17:38]: That when she comes of age, she will come to me and say, father, I am not prepared to go out on my own. And that encompasses a lot. And when I say come of age, there's not a number that's associated with it. She might be ready to set out on her own at 13. She might not be ready to set out on her own until she's 20. Her development is going to happen on its own timeline. My responsibility as a dad is to hold her hand until it's time to let go. And when it's time to let go, I have to have given her every ounce of me so that she's ready. Matthew Morris [00:18:20]: Does that mean that it's gonna be smooth sailing and she's gonna have no trials of her own, and she's never gonna be in a situation where she has to fight for herself or for the other people that she loves and believes in? Absolutely not. But when it's time for her to fight, she is ready. Christopher Lewis [00:18:37]: That's fair. Now as I mentioned, you have put together this book, this book that you're putting out into the world to be able to help other dads, the partner's purpose during pregnancy. Talk to me about that and why you decided that you wanted to take the time to be able to put all of this learning into this, and what are you hoping that people are gonna take out of it? Matthew Morris [00:18:57]: Joshua Sharfstein (zero zero four:fifty seven): I put the partner's purpose during pregnancy together. Number 1, it was my personal way of processing. So on the fortunate side of being unemployed for that period of time, it gave me the head space to sit down and start asking really hard questions, to start reading the books. Right? I read all of them. I read what to expect when you're expecting, the birth partner, bumpin', misconceptions, the Mayo Clinic's guide to pregnancy. Oh, boy. Let me tell you. If, if you're looking for a captivating read, sit down and and pop that 600 pager open. Matthew Morris [00:19:35]: But the reason that I did was I treated Shannon's pregnancy and the birth of my daughter as my new mission. When we would fly in the marine corps, you would prep for sometimes weeks for one specific mission. And you would begin building that knowledge base of the operating area, the weapon systems that you were going to employ, the teammates that you were going to be fighting with and supporting, and the enemy that had a say in every action that you made, well, this was my new mission. And for me to process the intensity of watching Shannon's body change, watching her mindset on things change, I had to have an outlet. And my outlet was putting a pen to paper because when I was asking some of these questions from the point of view of an expecting dad, there were no answers. And fortunately, there is now a culture shift in the United States away from the way that our dads were were kinda forced into it. And what I mean by that is I have a very loving and supportive father. Shannon has a very loving and supporting father, but there was no such thing as dad being there after the baby was born. Matthew Morris [00:21:00]: Took mom to the hospital, baby was born, and 2, 3 days later, dad's back at work. And that's just the way it was. Well, now one of the positives from COVID is the acknowledgment of remote work and the fact that so many jobs can be done from home, which allows you the opportunity to be in proximity to your kids for a longer period of time. And with Partner's Purpose, our mission is to show that you can have a faster postpartum recovery period. You can reduce postpartum depression and other maternal mental health situations if you start being involved and educated way before baby comes. And the other piece is the books that I listed, they have a place on my bookshelves, and I'm not saying that if you are in this phase of birth not to go study them. Go. Do it. Matthew Morris [00:22:42]: And it's practical. It's not theoretical. It's not big universe things. It's tangible. It's make your birth plan together. It's read out loud to your baby before you go to sleep. It's make her a sandwich. It's let her cry. Matthew Morris [00:23:00]: It's these things that when you're in a stressful situation or sorry. When you're in a a calm situation, it's like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. But pregnancy is stressful for both parties involved. And so when we can lay out, do this, do this, do this, I am taking that thought out and replacing it with very basic, simple muscle memory. It's just like training. Marine Corps, you do rifle training. You learn every single in and out aspect of your weapon so that when you are in an extremely high stress environment, you don't have to stop and think, wait, hang on. Matthew Morris [00:23:40]: How do I take it off safety? How do I aim? No. You can be running on 36 hours of no sleep and half a stale piece of bread, and you still know how to make your weapon function when you need it to function. Maybe not that extreme in the average American pregnancy, but the concepts are the same. If I can lay your steps out for you, if I can show you ways to be involved, then all you have to do is pick it up, open it to any page and say, I know how to filter your feed. It's one of the other notes. I know how to invest in our education so that we can develop informed opinions, so that we can build our birth team together. So that if the doctor or the midwife or the doula or the nurse practitioner tells us we have to do something, we know what that means, and we can ask questions on if we really do have to do that or, and this is my favorite, we've always done it that way, so that's why we do it. Well, just because something has always been done does not necessarily mean it's the right way. Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Matthew Morris [00:24:56]: Yes, sir. Let's do it. Christopher Lewis [00:24:57]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Matthew Morris [00:24:59]: Exciting. Christopher Lewis [00:25:00]: Let's think down the road, 18, 20 years. If I was to talk to your daughter, how would you want her to describe you? Matthew Morris [00:25:06]: Empowering and encouraging. I want her to, at no point, ever question if I have her back. I also acknowledge that probably is going to mean there are going to be moments where she is pissed at the decisions that I make. But if I've set her up for success to take on the world whatever way she chooses to take it on, then good. I have done my job. Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Matthew Morris [00:25:33]: My wife holds me accountable for being a better dad. My daughter inspires me to be a better dad. Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]: Now you've given a bunch of pieces of advice today, things that you've learned so far. You've got more to learn as well as your daughter gets older. But as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Matthew Morris [00:25:51]: Don't ever let your kindness be mistaken for weakness. You have now entered into a world where you have something that is precious, especially if you have a daughter. And my baby is only 6 months old and I see this with strangers. They will come up to her and she is beautiful, and cute, and bubbly, and engaging, and interacting. And the first thing they wanna do is reach out and squeeze her. That is not an acceptable course of action for anyone to attempt to physically touch my infant daughter without my express consent. Basically, if I don't give you permission to give her a hug, to grab her arm, to grab her cheek, you doing that is a violation of her personal space, and you might get smacked. If I don't get you, her mom will. Matthew Morris [00:26:50]: And as a dad, it does not matter what your culture is. It does not matter what your background is. It does not matter what other people tell you. You protect what is yours the best way that you believe it to be. And don't ever doubt yourself for doing the thing that you believe is in the best interest of your daughter. Christopher Lewis [00:27:14]: Now if people wanna find out more about you, your book, and more about what you're doing next, where's the best place for them to go? Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.

This is a special musical presentation of Listen Here, Listen Here with a solo from Christopher Lewis at Faith Lutheran Church in Okemos, Michigan.

In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the special guest Markus Wolf opened up about his experiences as a father to two daughters. Markus shared valuable insights into the multi-faceted journey of fatherhood, touching on themes ranging from emotional intelligence to the importance of male connections. Here, we delve deeper into the key topics from their enlightening conversation. The Joy and Fear of Knowing You'll be a Dad The Initial Ecstasy When Markus found out he was going to be a father, the joy was immediate. "I was ecstatic," he said, reflecting on that transformative moment. Unlike some men who may be taken by surprise or even ambivalence at the prospect of fatherhood, Markus had known from a young age that he wanted to be a dad. He even felt that having daughters was a form of karmic balance, avoiding the potential rebelliousness he feared from having a son. The Inherent Fears Despite his enthusiasm, Markus admitted that the journey of fatherhood comes with its own set of anxieties. One of his biggest concerns has always been about maintaining open lines of communication. He emphasized that building a home where his daughters feel safe to express themselves emotionally is crucial, yet challenging. This desire for transparent communication stemmed from his own struggles with emotional intelligence, something he recognized needed constant work. Crafting Unique Relationships with Each Child Individual Awareness One of the critical parenting strategies Markus highlighted was the importance of recognizing the distinct personalities of each child. For example, his daughter Madison is a "fireball," prone to expressing herself loudly, while Sienna tends to close off and become quiet. Understanding these differences has allowed Markus to tailor his parenting approach, ensuring that he meets each daughter's emotional needs effectively. Skill Development Through Coaching Techniques Drawing from his career as a fitness coach, Markus has seamlessly integrated coaching principles into his parenting. He speaks of a "confidence model" where he gradually builds his daughters' skill sets in a manner that empowers them. Much like his clients who increasingly master fitness routines, his children too are slowly being endowed with various life skills. Whether it's making breakfast or picking up their toys, these seemingly mundane tasks are steps toward building a well-rounded individual. Balancing Emotions and Strengthening Connections Managing Temperaments Markus is candid about one of his personal challenges—being a bit of a "hothead." He regularly finds himself working on temper control to avoid alienating his daughters. For Markus, being in a better emotional state often involves engaging in physical activity and maintaining connections with other men. These practices help him manage stress better, creating a more harmonious home environment. The Role of Male Connections The COVID-19 pandemic brought to light an essential aspect of Markus's life—male interaction. Prior to the outbreak, he found much-needed camaraderie in his daily interactions with clients and friends. The pandemic made him realize how vital these connections were for his mental well-being. According to Markus, this communication acts as a stress-relief mechanism, enabling him to return home balanced and prepared for fatherhood duties. The Mentor and Coach Pivot Incorporating Coaching into Parenting Markus describes his approach as "Miyagi-ing" his kids, reminiscent of the lessons from "The Karate Kid." By embedding valuable life skills subtly into daily routines, he's preparing his daughters for the real world without them even realizing it. This stealth approach to skill-building enables Markus to parent effectively, ensuring his daughters are ready for life's challenges while maintaining a supportive relationship. Role Models and Inspirations He also spoke about the crucial need for every man to retain some level of selfishness, not in a negative sense, but in terms of self-care. By maintaining his own well-being, Markus not only becomes a better father but also a better role model. The "loneliness epidemic" among men is something Markus is keenly aware of, actively working to combat it through his practice of connecting with other fathers and men. The Imperfect Yet Rewarding Journey of Fatherhood Markus Wolf's journey through fatherhood is not about being perfect; it's about being present and continuously striving for improvement. He emphasizes that fatherhood is a blessing that requires a balanced approach—recognizing individual needs, maintaining personal well-being, and building strong, open relationships. Markus's story serves as a powerful reminder that fatherhood, with all its challenges, is an evolving adventure, filled with moments of joy, learning, and profound love. For more insights and advice on fatherhood, join the "Dads with Daughters" community and explore resources that could make your parenting journey a little smoother.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to have these conversations with you where we are walking on this path together, where you and I are working to raise our daughters in the best way that we know how. And the most important thing that everyone needs to understand, no matter if you have 1 daughter, 2 daughters, 7 daughters, doesn't matter, is that we don't have to do this alone. And every week I love being able to have a conversation with you, to walk with you as we are walking down this path together, as I said, But knowing that, we don't all know everything. There is not the there is not one right way to father, and there's not one playbook to follow. So it is important for us to be able to learn from others, find other resources, find more tools for our toolbox that we can pull from to be able to be the best dads that we want to be that will help our daughters to be the women that they want to be in the future. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have different experiences, that are walking this path alongside of you and are doing things maybe in a little bit different way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: But that's okay because we can learn and grow from all of their experiences as well. And this week, we have another great guest with us today. Markus Wolf is with us today. And Markus is a father of 2 daughters, and I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share his experiences with us. Markus, thanks so much for being here today. Markus Wolf [00:01:56]: Thanks for having me, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:57]: It is my pleasure. Love having you here today. 1st and foremost, question I always start off with. I love being able to have the power to turn the clock back in time. I know you have 2 daughters. So So I wanna go back to that first moment. That first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head? Markus Wolf [00:02:13]: I was ecstatic. I really was. I knew I wanted to be a dad since I was very young, which some dads never expect to have a child. Some of them never even wanted to have a child and I knew it. I knew it since I was in grade school. I was like, it was part of the vision. I'm going to be a father. So when it happened, it was just kind of I knew I was with the right woman. Markus Wolf [00:02:32]: I knew everything was just pieced together perfectly. So I was really, really excited, especially girl for some reason. I think, I was pretty tough as a son, and I just didn't want the payback that my father got. So it was kinda nice to just know that I was like, okay. Great. I only have to deal with a a daughter and then I got a second one. So that was like, okay. Never gonna deal with a son. Markus Wolf [00:02:51]: Nothing wrong with having sons, of course. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:53]: So you said you always knew that you wanted to be a father. Talk to me about that. What was it about being a father that really, I'm gonna say intrigued you or made you want to be a father yourself? You know, Markus Wolf [00:03:06]: Chris, it's kinda hard to explain. Right? It just some kids grow up and they wanna be firefighters. They wanna be doctors. And then some of them fulfill that that vision. And it was just part of the process of, like, what I pictured myself. I said to myself, I wanted the white picket fence house. I wanted kids. I wanted that lifestyle. Markus Wolf [00:03:23]: So I'm not really sure how to even explain it. It was just something that I knew that I desired. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:27]: I talked to a lot of different dads. A lot of different dads tell me that walking into fatherhood is a bit scary. There's some fear that goes along with being a dad. A lot of it comes back to the fact that there's no playbook to really follow that outside of the mentoring or what you've seen in your life. As you look at the experiences that you've had thus far as a father, what's been your biggest fear in raising daughters? Markus Wolf [00:03:50]: Communication is something you really want. It's one of the hardest things when it comes to parenting. And the the again, part of what I always pictured was my children were gonna always be able to come to me for support and to open up emotionally. And then I realized really quickly, and I think kids do this, relationships do this as well. They expose what you haven't been working on. And I wasn't working on my emotional intelligence. I mean, God bless my wife, Lindsay, for even, like, always just putting up with my, you know, I'm very like, you could call it passionate, but I usually just call it hot tempered. And when you have children again, they're not going to want to come to a human being who just doesn't know how to sit there and and, you know, understand where they're coming from and really be able to just not try to, you know, do the manly thing of just fixing their scenario. Markus Wolf [00:04:38]: So that's the one thing I'm always afraid of. I just want them to not feel like they're ever afraid to come to me to be, I need support with X, Y, and Z. And then, because perhaps I'm not showing the greatest of light, they don't come to me. That'd be the, the, probably the worst thing because they, I don't know. I mean, I feel like I've always valued having mentors and I don't need to be their top mentor, but I would like to be someone that could come to. Markus Wolf [00:04:59]: And I'm definitely gonna be following back up with that on the mentorship piece because I think that that's something that you are incorporating into your fatherhood and I wanna delve a little bit deeper into that. But before I do, I wanna ask you a little bit about when you raise children, it's not always easy. There are ups, downs, sideways, everything in between. And there are good days, there are bad days, there are you know what I mean. So, what has been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter? Markus Wolf [00:05:29]: I mean, you kind of said it. I'm very regimented. It's just the way I can handle the toughness of life, if you want to say. And things have to be put in place so perfectly. And that's not parenting. And that's even different when you have 2 different children that have different requirements, different skill sets. I've tried with one of them will work on a Monday and then it won't work on a Tuesday and it's incredibly frustrating. And then again, yeah, it's a constant roller coaster. Markus Wolf [00:05:53]: That's probably the toughest part because it would be so great if they just did exactly what I asked them to do all the time, but they don't. So it's probably that constant battle I have to have with myself to just slow it down and not desire so much. It's just, like, let it go type of thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:11]: Now you talk just talked about the fact that what works with one child may not work with the other. And every child is is different and the personalities are different. So talk to me about what you've had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters that may be different from each other. Oh, I Markus Wolf [00:06:28]: mean, first, yeah, you have to almost understand what their qualities are, right? I mean, I have my oldest daughter Madison, who she's just a fireball. So she'll rather yell, she'll scream. So she'll still voice her and she'll still communicate with words. And then you obviously have to, you know, deal with that. You just have to try to, like, bring the person bring Madison down a little bit. With my other daughter, Sienna, she just closes off. Like, she doesn't use words. She gets really quiet. Markus Wolf [00:06:52]: So then you're always just trying to figure out, well, now I know that this one is up and you gotta bring this one down to balance and the other one's a little bit down and you gotta bring it down. So that's been the first one. It's just being aware of how they respond to certain type of emotions. And then when you understand it, then you're like, okay, cool. Now what do I have in my tool belt to to bring one down and bring the other one up? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: Now you talked about that sometimes you can be a little bit of a hothead and you have to temper that. As you said, you don't want your children to be afraid to come to you because of that. How have you had to work on that to be able to get to a point where either you're in the right space or that you've had to had those conversations with your daughters, and you might not have had to have them yet with them so that they understand. But how have you been able to realign yourself in being a father and knowing that your emotions may be a little bit more heated and you have to be able to adjust for that. Markus Wolf [00:07:50]: I'm in fitness. I'm in health. And for me, I believe it's always about putting yourself into like a better state. So if you're like energetic, the stress is relieved. So usually, I think most dads can agree that the milk spilled on the floor is not why you had this huge yelling outburst or the TV not being shut off when you asked for it to be shut off is not really why you're you're yelling. Because if you really put things into perspective, you're like, okay. Am I really gonna get mad at this at a child for not shutting off the TV? Or am I mad because there's a whole bunch of other things I'm incredibly stressed out about that I hadn't just, you know, worked through. So for me, I have to always put myself into a state. Markus Wolf [00:08:26]: And one of them that I've really worked on for the last 2 years is I have to have a male connection at least once a week. That is like a mandatory and it's worked fabulously because once I do it, I come back and I'm I could recognize myself being like, oh, okay. So I think it was just because I needed a little bit of like stress relief. So I mean, obviously stress stress relief can look different for so many other men, but that has been the one that just brings me to the state that I need to be for parenting, if that makes sense. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:52]: It does. And now you talked about the fact that you are a mentor, but you're also a coach. You are and you're incorporating some of those things that you've been doing in your own business as a fitness coach, as a coach in general into your parenting. So talk to me about how you've been able to pivot that in being able to do what you're doing with clients and trying to incorporate that into the work that you're doing in trying to be the father that you want to be? Markus Wolf [00:09:29]: I stumbled upon this. It must have been just almost like an epiphany. I was just obviously I was coaching a lot of men and parenting every single day. And then I started to realize there's something there where the ultimate goal, I believe this is my parent and style. I don't know if this is all fathers is my job is to set them up for the world, right? And the more skill sets I give them, the more, like, you know, let's say even like the emotional intelligence skills around the house. All these like little things are foundational tools that you do for clients. Like clients, they need to have foundational tools to get food prepared so they could eat healthier meals. They could go outside and prioritize themselves. Markus Wolf [00:10:08]: So there's there's very much I tried to work in. What is the process number 1 for this child? I mean, where are we at? Like, you know, at 3 years old, they could barely pick up many things. But at 4 years old, they can empty the dishes. At 5 years old, they can make their own breakfast, things like that. So I started to realize that my coaching style was always like that. It's kind of like a, I call it the confidence model where you take someone and you just, what is the one thing that could boost their confidence? But it's a very easy thing that they can do. And then each time you have to recognize what is the next thing they need to do to again move towards those skill sets that you were speaking of. So I've been doing it with my children. Markus Wolf [00:10:42]: They're excellent at things around the house now without realizing that it wasn't, I'm asking, like, you know, it's not doesn't feel like a chore, I guess, I suppose you're saying. Because, again, I'm gonna use this great reference because I've been watching Cobra Kai for those past couple weeks, which is I Miyagi then. You know, it's mean I just and I do that with my clients. I Miyagi them to just suddenly have these skill sets and now they're like, oh my goodness. Now I'm like equipped for the world and I'm like, yes. I did what I needed to do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:05]: Now even in Cobra Kai and Karate Kid, Daniel san ends up figuring out that he's getting Miyagi ed. So your kids are going to figure it out sometime. And they're probably going to be like, what the heck, dad? Why are you doing this? How are you gonna react? Markus Wolf [00:11:19]: I might even just do what I just did right now. I might smile a little and just said, you know, this is this is what I'm I'm trying my best. I'm like, I'm trying my best. I have good intentions and I think sometimes that's, like, at least gives you half the pass. But, yeah, if I get exposed, I will get back to you and I'll let you know how I handle it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:34]: So talk to me about you talked earlier about the fact that you found within your own life that you need to have those connections with other men, other fathers, other individuals, so important for you. I don't like referencing COVID too much, just because there's, so important for you. Markus Wolf [00:11:55]: I don't like referencing covid too much just because this feels like something you just want to put behind you. But it made me recognize that what I had in the past was like a third home. I had a place to go out and when I would personal trained before covid, I was interacting with 5, 10 people a day. And then when you go from 5, 10 to 0, you start to realize that that was something that was a requirement for you. You like being heard, you like hearing other people's stories. And then when you eliminate that, I started to replace my wife for that. So really, it was just get back that same outlets. And then then again, I I can't explain why it feels so good, but it was it was exactly what I just needed. Markus Wolf [00:12:32]: I just need to talk to others and hear others and just get out and about. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]: You know, I've come to find that some men are for some men, that is not an easy thing to do, to reconnect, to make those connections, to make those friendships, especially once we become adults. Don't seem to have problems usually when we're growing up. We make those connections. We have friendships. But as we get into our adulthood and we start focusing on family, profession, other things, the push for maintaining friendships, building friendships goes away. As someone that mentors others, that coaches others, why do you think that happens? And what have you done to be able to try to help other men to reconnect like you are? Markus Wolf [00:13:16]: That's a really great point. You made me remember what it was like being with my father or being raised with my father and he had 0 friends. So I think that was already a glaring sign. And the first things that I feel like I recognize was I talk about that a lot with clients, even sometimes the very first interaction. I say to them that when we were younger, when we were men, it was 95% of our time were with other men. Locker room banter, playing video games, going outside, and you're pretty much just hanging out with men your whole entire life up until the point when you're dating the person that you're eventually gonna have children with and then get married. So for me, I personally just started to use I'm a meathead at heart, Chris, to be honest. So I just work out with men because it just seems to be a 2 birds with 1 stone type of scenario. Markus Wolf [00:14:05]: And I think a lot of men can can connect with that. Maybe it's not working out. Maybe it's, hey. I'm gonna go join a softball team, and that might even just be enough to do the thing. Markus Wolf [00:14:14]: No, it does. And I think that it's important to understand that. That's one of the reasons why in fathering together, we develop the online communities that we have, but we also have in person opportunities for dads to connect with other dads and be able to open up opportunities for men to be able to connect, connect with their kids, connect with each other because connection is so important. But we, as I said, sometimes forget about that and focus so much on other aspects that leads to the prevalence of loneliness. And you'll see lots of studies that are out there right now that talk about the pervasiveness of loneliness in malehood right now. And most men don't wanna talk about it, and they just wanna kind of push it down and keep pushing forward because that's what we do. We push through, right? So it's not an easy thing to deal with, but it's also important to for us to deal with because if we don't, our kids are watching and our kids will also identify and see what's happening. So one of the questions that I have, I guess, is this because you work with a lot of dads and men in the coaching that you do through fitness, through life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:32]: What are some of the biggest challenges that some of these men that are coming to you, working with you right now are dealing with? And are you seeing commonalities amongst them? Markus Wolf [00:15:41]: 100%. I feel like at this point, because I've worked with 100 and it's just patterns. And usually the one pattern that I'm noticing a lot is the values they have are outside of themselves. So it's never a bad thing to provide. That's one of a very important role you're supposed to do as a parent, as an adult. But I couldn't understand that because I'll admit it, I was quite selfish in my twenties, which kind of prepared me for how to, you know, be successful in fitness. But their line in what it does, it prioritizes self, it prioritizes if your energy is not where you want it to be, you prioritize it. If your stress management is not where you want it to be, you prioritize it. Markus Wolf [00:16:21]: And most of the men I work with, and this is what I fear for my kids, is, like, they don't prioritize themselves. They prioritize appeasing work, their boss, wife. You gotta keep your wife happy, but she's in control of her own happiness. In my personal opinion, that if you're not in control of yours, that's probably a big, big issue. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:40]: For those men that you're working with that have a hard time identifying those priorities, because sometimes men do. Sometimes they are floundering a bit and there are individuals that are listening right now that may be thinking, I just don't know where to start. Where should they start? Markus Wolf [00:16:55]: Using that same model that I spoke about, it's usually the easiest route is the first route. So even if it's just going for a walk and listening to an audiobook you've been wanting to listen to forever, It's probably a larger sense of accomplishment to some men than you would even believe. To others, it would be that's just a typical Monday morning. I go for a walk on the beach and I listen to an audiobook or something. But for them, some of these men, they they they just keep saying that they're going to do something. And that's that action, I believe, is already enough for them to, put forward towards where they need to go. And if you're already doing that again, what is the the thing that you keep holding off at? Because that's likely the thing that's gonna push you forward. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:33]: I appreciate you sharing that as well. Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Ready. In one word, what is fatherhood? Markus Wolf [00:17:43]: It's a blessing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:43]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Markus Wolf [00:17:47]: I take my girls on a on a monthly date. And usually, on days where they finish school, you have to drag them out of the playground just to leave to go home. But on our monthly dates, they will run and they cannot wait to to join me. And I feel like that's they're looking forward to it. That's already a good sign. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:03]: Now your kids are still young, so they might not have a lot of answers for this. But if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Markus Wolf [00:18:09]: I think they totally answer it with, I'm the fun guy who tends to yell a lot. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:14]: Now let's go at this point maybe 15 years down the road. What do you want them to say then? Markus Wolf [00:18:19]: As long as they could say something, that's the man I trust, That's the man I I look up to. That's the man that I am looking to get him a partner like. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Markus Wolf [00:18:27]: Ben, 100%. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:28]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Markus Wolf [00:18:34]: Choose your battles. If you're like me, you want like, I just told you, I I wanna add skill sets to them. I want them to have things to be better in the world, but it's not gonna happen overnight. So just sometimes let it go. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]: And that's definitely not always easy. Markus Wolf [00:18:48]: No. It's probably the toughest thing I've ever done in my life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]: Now, if people wanna find out more about you and what you're up to, where should they go? Markus Wolf [00:18:55]: They can find me on Instagram, coach Markus Wolf, m a r k u s, Wolf, and drop a whole bunch of knowledge bombs if they want anything. And also just, again, resonance. So if you're a father and you're just looking to resonate with someone who's been holding on to healthy habits even with 2 children, just give me a call. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:10]: Well, Markus, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing what you've learned thus far, and I wish you all the best. Markus Wolf [00:19:17]: Appreciate you, Chris. This was a pleasure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:19]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:17]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

Fatherhood is a journey laden with challenges, triumphs, and a multitude of rewarding experiences. For some, it means rewriting the scripts handed down by previous generations and breaking stereotypes. Kevin Riley, a father of three, a Bronx councilman, author, and one of the founding members of "The Dad Gang," epitomizes this transformative journey. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, Kevin Riley shared his unique story, shedding light on his mission to redefine Black fatherhood and support other fathers in similar pursuits. The Crucial First Steps: Overcoming Fear and Self-Doubt Fear as a Driving Force When Kevin Riley found out he was going to be a father to his first daughter, Brooke, fear struck him. Having grown up without a father, he was acutely aware of what he lacked in terms of role models and guidance. Reflecting on those initial fears, Riley shared, "I was scared but also excited because it was a journey I could pour so much value into." His primary concern was whether he was parenting the right way. Riley's transparency about his fears dismantles the myth of the all-knowing father. It is okay to be scared, okay to doubt — what matters is the desire to overcome these fears and become the best dad possible. Balancing Responsibilities: The Art of Time Management Striking a Balance in a Busy Life Being a councilman often pulls Kevin Riley in different directions, demanding a delicate balance between public responsibilities and family life. "I bring my children everywhere," Riley explains. From community events to City Hall hearings, his children are often by his side, learning the ropes of civic engagement early on. This unique approach serves dual purposes: it provides valuable bonding time and exposes his children to the concept of public service. Riley's method underscores the importance of integrating children into various aspects of life, making them active participants in their father's world. Empowering Daughters: The Challenge and the Reward Breaking Gender Norms Kevin Riley emphasized the importance of empowering his daughters to pursue any career they desire, irrespective of societal expectations. He makes it a point to connect his daughters with powerful female leaders to illustrate that they can achieve the same heights as their male counterparts. "In a male-dominated society, you have to find creative ways to empower your daughters," Riley says. The lesson here is that fatherhood extends beyond basic caregiving; it's about paving the way for your children to see themselves as capable and equal contributors to society. Sharing the Journey: "Hop Into Life" From Personal Experience to Published Author Riley's book, "Hopping Through Life," co-authored with his children, is a heartfelt narrative aimed at demystifying the complexities of fatherhood. The inspiration stemmed from his own experiences and his nightly ritual of reading to his kids. "Be proud of the journey you've been through because it created the person you are today," Riley advises. The book serves as a beacon for other fathers, particularly those who may have grown up without a father figure. It's a testament to overcoming obstacles and embracing the messy, yet beautiful, journey of parenting. Community Building: The Dad Gang Changing Stereotypes, One Dad at a Time One of the most impactful initiatives Kevin Riley has been involved with is "The Dad Gang." Founded by Sean Williams, this organization was borne out of a single comment that stereotyped Black fathers. "We created this community online, but we really wanted to go deeper," Riley explains. The Dad Gang hosts events like the "March of Dads," which feature public walks and community activities aimed at showcasing the active involvement of Black fathers. The group also organizes healing circles and interactive forums that provide emotional support and amplify the narratives of Black fatherhood. Final Words: The All-Important Advice Make Time, Always As Kevin Riley beautifully puts it, "There's no amount of money that you can earn within your lifetime that would amount to the time you could spend with your children." For dads feeling overwhelmed or questioning their readiness due to financial constraints, Riley offers the essential advice to prioritize time with their children over everything else. His advocacy for this critical aspect of fatherhood is both inspiring and actionable. Through his roles as a councilman, author, and community leader, Kevin Riley is not just rewriting his own narrative — he's providing a new script for Black fatherhood, challenging stereotypes, and inspiring fathers everywhere to be the best they can be. His story serves as a powerful reminder that fatherhood, above all, is a journey of love, patience, and unwavering commitment. TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads With Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I'm on this journey with you. You and I are going along this journey to be the best dads that we can be. And the thing that I love is that you show up every week to be able to learn, to grow, to hear from other fathers, hear from other people about the journeys that they've been on, and some of the resources that they've been able to either create, provide, or just the experiences that they've had that can give you some context, give you some ideas about things that you can do to be able to better engage with your daughters or just be there and just be able to be the best dad that you can be and help them in the journey that they're on as they're moving into womanhood. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that come to fatherhood just like you and I, without a lot of resources, without a lot of ideas, because there's no one right way to father. However, we can learn from each other. We can learn from so many others to be able to be that better father that we wanna be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: Today, we got another great guest with us today. Kevin Riley is a father of 3. He is a district 12 Bronx councilman and a soon to be published author and founding member of the dad gang. And we're gonna be talking to him about his own journey, about being a dad of 2 daughters and a son, but also some of the we'll talk about his new book. We'll talk about a little bit of a lot of things to be able to get some of his own perspectives. So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for being here today. Kevin Riley [00:02:11]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Lewis. How are you doing today? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]: I really appreciate you being here. And I always love starting this these interviews with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know you've got 2 daughters. You got a 9 and a 5 year old. So I'm gonna go back. Maybe it's 10 years. Maybe it's 9 years. Never know. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: But I wanna go back to the very beginning. I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you're going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Kevin Riley [00:02:36]: I was scared. I think I was truly scared finding out that my at that time, my fiance was pregnant. She's my wife now. Pregnant with our first daughter, Brooke. Really scared because at that time, you know, I didn't grow up with a father. So as you stated before, we're trying to learn fatherhood techniques, we're trying to learn different tips, we're trying to learn different situations that may, you know, come about within our children's lives from each other. It's so important that we create these communities because at that time I didn't know. I I was really truly scared, but I did know that I wanted to be the best father possible. Kevin Riley [00:03:09]: I know that at minimal. I knew I wanted to be the best father possible. So I would say 10 years ago, man, when I find out or 9 years ago, when I found out that Brooke was gonna be more, I was scared, but I was really excited too because it was a journey that I felt that I can, give so much back and pour so much value Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]: back to school. You just said that you were scared. And I think a lot of dads are scared to step into fatherhood, let alone being a father to a daughter. And there's some fear that goes into that. As you've gone through these 9 years with your oldest daughter and your other kids as well, what's been your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter? Kevin Riley [00:03:46]: I think my biggest fear, and I'm a be totally transparent with you, making sure that I'm parented the right way. There's no manual into being a father. There's no manual into being a dad. There's no right way of doing things all the time, and I think really there are times when even I'm communicating with my daughter, my daughter's trying to communicate with me or even show affection. I mean, I may be busy as you stated, I'm a I'm a New York City council member, so my job is very, very busy a lot of the times, So I won't be as available to my daughter as much as I will possibly wanna be available to her. So you kinda get that fear of, hey. Am I doing this the right way? Is my daughter going to find love outside of her father because she felt like she didn't get that male love from her father, because he wasn't there for her as much as possible. And then once I was able to kind of fight those different thoughts within myself, I was able to apply, what I wanted to be, because I think it's the fear. Kevin Riley [00:04:40]: The fear always puts doubt within yourself. Then if you really open your eyes, I was always available at her doctor's appointments, I was always going to her shows, I was always showing up for everything for my children. It puts that doubt aside because we have fear, especially when you grow up, and like I stated, I grew up without a father. So that fear of, hey. I didn't get the blueprint. I don't know how a father is supposed to deal with this with their child. I think after I got off that fear and that doubt, I was able to be the best father that I'm actually doing a really pretty good job. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:10]: That being a councilman, you have a busy life, and you're pulled in a lot of different directions. Being an elected person in an elected office definitely is something that puts you into the limelight in many aspects. People get to know you. And sometimes your kids don't get that in regard to being that public figure in that way. And they don't always understand that you have to be away to be able to build them the life that they are accustomed to. So talk to me about that in regards to balance because I think that so many fathers have to try to balance their work life, their or or professional life, their personal life, and trying to find what that perfect balance is to be able to show up and to be able to be in the lives of their kids the way that they wanna be. How have you been able to do that? Have you struggled with it? What have you done to be able to get better at it? Kevin Riley [00:06:10]: Yeah. I think I touched, a little bit about that with the fear and the doubt, but then you you mentioned something balance and time management. I am a person that if you know me and the way I govern, I bring my children everywhere. So my children actually attend community events for me. My children actually attend meetings for me. I'll even bring my children to city hall at hearings sometimes because I think it's very important for them to see exactly what their father does and important for them to be civically engaged as well. I'm trying to teach civics to my children at a very, very early age. You do understand that within our country, you know, a lot of children don't get the accessibility or the access to learn about how government truly works. Kevin Riley [00:06:46]: So I get I think my children are seeing that on a day to day basis, and they understand what their father is or what their father contributes, to their community. I do a lot of work with giving back to my community and my children realize that and they really appreciate that. So I think, time management is really important. I have a luxury of bringing my children to work. A lot of fathers don't have the luxury of bringing their children to work. But even if you don't have the luxury of bringing your children to work, I think time management is very important. Even if you take a hour, 2 hours, that's why you go we came out with this book and we're writing this book and I know we're gonna touch on that a little bit later. But just doing activity with your child, reading to your children, going out and playing with your children. Kevin Riley [00:07:26]: We can make time. There's 24 hours in the day. There's always time that you can make to engage with your children and I realized that with time management, I may not have the opportunity to sit down and watch cartoons all day with my children. But in the morning time, when I'm getting them ready for school, engaging, communicating with them, and conversing with them, in the evening time, making sure that I shut my phone calls off at a certain period of time, and I'm able to sit down with my children, you know, watch a TV show, catch up with them, have some dinner with them, things of that nature. I think time management is crucial Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:58]: It truly is. For your father. Now one of the things that I wanted to go back to, you were talking about fear and raising daughters. And raising kids is not always easy. There's ups. There's downs. There's every which way. And sometimes days are good. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:11]: Sometimes they may not be. So it can be difficult at times as well. What's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter? Kevin Riley [00:08:18]: I think the hardest part of being a father to a daughter is being able to empower them to do whatever they wanna do within their life. Coming from a male and my wife does an amazing job with empowering our daughters. But coming from their father as a man, they see me doing a lot of amazing dope things, and I don't want them to feel like only men can do this. I try to empower them, and I try to be equalizers to them and let them know, like, hey. As I'm doing this, there's powerful leaders out there doing this as well, so I think it's very important, especially in my field. I always try to connect my daughters to very powerful women leaders alongside with them. Their mother has a very powerful position as well, but other powerful leaders out there who are women and who are doing a lot of dope amazing things, because I want them to feel like this is not male driven. You know, their father, they see the dope things their father is doing all the time. Kevin Riley [00:09:07]: They see their father's always on television all the time, but they also see the Bronx borough president who's the 1st black woman to hold that position. She does amazing things, and when we go to events, they're able to connect with her on real time, and they're able to talk to her, ask her questions. So I think that has been the challenge as a dad with raising daughters because I think in a male dominant society, you really try to find creative ways to empower them and let them know that they could do the same thing that you could do even though it's a male dominant. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:36]: You mentioned that you've got a new book coming out called Popping Through Life. And I know that in that book, you are trying to really remind families that family is not just about blood relations or focusing on what it means to focusing on what we may lack in our lives. So I wanna go back to the beginning as you have created this story. As as an author myself, I know how much time, effort, passion have to go into the creation of these pieces that are being put out into the world. What made you decide that you wanted to be an author, and what made you decide that this was the topic for kids that you wanted to talk about? Kevin Riley [00:10:15]: I've always been passionate about expressing my story to individuals. Growing up, my father and my mother migrated to America from Jamaica, and unfortunately, my father, he was incarcerated when we were younger, and I used to always visit him when he was in the criminal justice system. And that's why I thought I was actually going. So that's why when my daughter was born in 2015 and now me being a council member, you can see that was a total different change, you know, in direction in life, and I believe my father did the best that he possibly could. We have a great relationship today. You know, we stay connected as much as possible, and I really strongly feel that the storyline came from me expressing where the challenges that I grew up with, where that came through, and it's really much just hopping through life, like, getting through getting by. I feel a lot of us feel like we're just getting by through life a lot of times, and once I have my daughter in 2015 and I'm learning, then I have my other daughter in 2019, and then my son came in 2022, it's like I learned different things at with each child, and I'm hopping through this thing we call parent look. It's something that I do with my children every single night as I read to my children. Kevin Riley [00:11:22]: Something in New York City and and throughout the nation, we're trying to promote literacy to our children, so I think it's crucially and truly important as parents that you read to your children as much as possible and have your children read back to you as much as possible. But as we were reading these stories and every time I'm reading the story, I'm always reading the author and the illustration illustrator out to the story. And my daughter said one day, like, hey, dad would love if one day we could tell our story. And when she said that, I'm like, wow. That really struck me because as a council member, I'm always verbal. I'm always giving speeches about my story, but I've never written my story down, and I wanted to write it in a sense where a father who has experienced the same things that I've experienced growing up and their their journey of fatherhood and them kind of hopping, they can actually read the story to their children so their children could actually understand as well, like, hey, your father's not perfect. Your father there wasn't a machine that was created. It was just dad. Kevin Riley [00:12:16]: Here's a dad. Here's a mom. Your father has been through stuff. Your father has trauma in their life. Your father is healing. Your father is learning different things, and they are just getting through life the same way that you're getting through life as a child. Our child learned to crawl, then walk, then then then read, then then go to school on their own. They learn different things, and you continue to learn. Kevin Riley [00:12:36]: Learning doesn't stop when you graduate school. Learning continues throughout life, so I think that's where the journey of the book came from. It it's about me telling my story, but also about me giving a platform for fathers who experience things like me. There's a lot of tons of fathers out there who didn't have a father figure in their life, and they're going into this journey of fatherhood. They can actually read a story to their children that could kind of outline that. And we utilize character of a bunny because bunnies are really popular with children, Bugs Bunny. Bunnies are really, really popular with children as an animal, and they're energized. Bunnies are really energized, and that's what we feel like fathers should be in their children's lives. Kevin Riley [00:13:13]: They should be their children's Energizer Bunny. They should energize their children to make sure that they're going out and being the best of their ability. So that's where the book and the journey of the book came from, and I'm really excited that we're releasing it on September 6th on National Reader Book Day. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:27]: So you're telling your story, and you're sharing that with the masses. What are you hoping that people are going to take from reading this for themselves and reading to their children? Kevin Riley [00:13:39]: Be proud of the journey that you've been through because the journey that you've been through created the person that you are today, and we shouldn't always shun away from it. I know sometimes people are kind of embarrassed of their upbringing. They're embarrassed of the trauma that they experience through their life, but I think they should kind of look at the good out of that because it made them into a very resilient person. It made them into a very strong person that's able to conquer any challenges that they may embark on, you know, moving forward. And hopping through life really engages and showcases that even though you may have had trauma throughout your life, you could still be a great dad. Even though you may not had a father when you were younger, you could still be a great dad. And also to be sympathetic, you don't know what your father went through. Your father had a father. Kevin Riley [00:14:23]: Your father's father had a father. There has been lineage of fatherhood that's been happening throughout generations, and there's no manual. I think a lot of times when we think of parents, we always circle and and focus on mothers all the time, but fathers are as important as mothers as well. I think fathers don't know that. I know in New York City, I passed a resolution that made June in New York City fatherhood recognition month because we want to recognize fathers throughout the entire month of June. But not only do that, the whole goal is to create centers for fathers. We partner with organizations like the Real Dads Network. I have an organization that I know I'm gonna we're gonna talk about soon, the dad gang, but we really want to create these fatherhood centers that provide resources for fathers to really flourish, that will help fathers find jobs, help fathers connect with their children emotionally. Kevin Riley [00:15:11]: I think fathers, even men, we've been taught to be really, really masculine at times and not really be really comprehensive, really understand our feelings, really be emotionally connected, to our emotional feelings, so we can emotionally connect with our children and understand that. So I think that's why I want people to get from this book. I want people to really understand that, hey, even though you did have a journey that brought you to this day, you should embrace it, and you should really know that it made you into the strong, resilient person that you are in today's society. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:44]: Now you talked about the organization that you are a part of and that you founded called Dad Gang. Talk to me about Dad Gang, why you decided to start it, what its goals are, and what you're hoping that people are going to take away from being a part of it. Kevin Riley [00:16:00]: So when you talk about fatherhood, one negative aspect and negative stereotype about fatherhood is black fathers aren't involved in their children's lives. So when we started the Dag Gang, the Dag Gang, Sean Williams, who's the founder of the Dag Gang, who's our fraternity brother, Kappa Alpha Paternity Incorporated. He started the Dag Gang, in 2015 when he had his second daughter, and he was in the supermarket with his child, and, a white woman had said to him, I'm glad you stuck around. It's good that you stuck around. And he was really offended by that comment, but he's like, I know tons of fathers out there that are involved in their children's lives. So we first, we got together and at that time, that's when social media really started picking up. You had Instagram, you had Twitter, you had all these different platforms that people are really looking at people lives on a device. So we want to put out as much positive imagery and visions of black fatherhood. Kevin Riley [00:16:53]: We didn't realize we are creating a community of black fathers that were coming to this page, seeing all the dope black fathers out there, connecting with those fathers because we would add put their username there, connecting with them because they were from their city and towns, and really building this market that, hey. You might have a father like I have, at that time, my daughter, at the time between 2015 and 2018, she just turned 3 at that time. I could connect with a brother who has a 10 year old. So they have a 10 year old daughter. So I know between 3 10 year old what are certain things I should be doing, certain things I should be saying, certain things I should not be doing. It creates this kinda community, so we created this community online, but we really want to go a little bit deeper. So we started to do events where we organize and mobilize in different states, and we do something called the March of Dads. So it started off with calling strolling with the homies, but we changed the name to the March of Dads because we wanted to go to landmarks in different places. Kevin Riley [00:17:46]: So for instance, we went to in New York City, we go to Prospect. In New York City, we just did the Bronx Children's Museum. In Atlanta, we did Ponce City Market. In DC, we marched by the White House, and we wanted to go to landmarks and showcase, and you just see a whole bunch of Black fathers, fathers of color, walking together with strollers, carry ons, older children, grandfathers, fathers. You just see that image and it showcases to you that black fathers are really engaged. But not only do we do that, we host a bunch of conversations and talks. So we do healing circles where we call it the dad house, where we have fathers, just fathers, just speaking. Because sometimes we feel like there's no place for us to just speak and just express how we feel. Kevin Riley [00:18:28]: As men, I go back to the masculinity. We're always taught that we're not supposed to show emotions. We're supposed to figure things out, just kinda go through life and just figure things out. Be tough about things, and that continues to just break us down. And then we get to a point where we break down, and that healing process is so challenging. I read a book called Battle Cry by Jason Wilson. Amazing book, where he talked about that, that we focus so much on the masculinity part about manhood, which is important, but we need to also talk about emotions and the comprehensive part about being the man as well. So the dad game, we really formulated this organization to be a a nest, a safe haven for fathers of color out there to showcase that we are present. Kevin Riley [00:19:10]: We do tons of different other activities. We hand out strollers, diapers, things of that nature in different parts of the city and the, the nation. We're in different parts. We do stuff in LA, DC, Atlanta, where we're branching out to different parts as well, but it's really organization. Tap in. It's the dadgang.com, or you can follow us on the dad gang on any platform. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:32]: I love the concept. I love the idea. As a global organization, it is definitely something that's needed to be able to as you kind of were talking about in the sense of redefining fatherhood and redefining black fatherhood or or the masses and to show that what the founder heard in the grocery store is not accurate and it is definitely not something that should be perpetuated. So I appreciate all the work that the organization's doing to engage dads in so many ways. There are so many opportunities for dads to be able to come together. This is one great way to be able to do that. And I encourage people to check out The Dad Gang at the dad gang.com to be able to learn more about their events, their activities, and how you can get involved as well. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: Are you ready? In one word, what is fatherhood? Kevin Riley [00:20:30]: Love. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]: When was a time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Kevin Riley [00:20:36]: The completion of Hop Into LifeBook. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:38]: If I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Kevin Riley [00:20:41]: Mister Clean. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]: What about 10 years from now? What do you want them to say? Kevin Riley [00:20:46]: My dad is my best friend. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:48]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Kevin Riley [00:20:49]: My children. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:50]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad? Kevin Riley [00:20:58]: Make time to be with your children. There's no amount of money that you can earn within your lifetime that would amount to the amount of time you could spend with your children. I talk to a ton of people out there who are interested in becoming a father and they and they always say to me like, 'hey, I just think I'm not financially ready yet.' Yes, having a child can be very expensive, but in the same sense it's more expensive when you're not spending time with your children. Because the time that you're missing with your children is something you can never make up. So I always give the advice to every dad out there, make time to be around your children, whether if it's an hour a day, whatever the time is, just make time so you could truly just connect with them and so you can just see how dope you are and just really showcase your love that you have for them. If the Hop Into LifeBook could order it on hopindolifebook.com. It's going to be an amazing amazing series because there's gonna be some more books that's gonna come out after and I'm really really proud of my children who are co authors of this book, Brook Kate and Caleb Riley. And I would just advise you just find that activity that you could do with your kids together. Kevin Riley [00:22:03]: It will really really make you guys closer and really make them be able to express their creative juices to you as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]: Well, Kevin, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for doing what you're doing to be able to be active in your own kids' lives, but also what you're doing to be able to engage with other dads, to be able to push them to be that engaged father that they want to be as well. And I wish you all the best. Kevin Riley [00:22:27]: Thank you, doctor Lewis. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:28]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men. Get out and be the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

On this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we spoke with Kevin Baker, a certified life coach and father of three. Known affectionately as "Coach Kevin," he offers unique insights into parenting through his personal and professional experiences. This episode delved into various aspects of fatherhood, particularly focusing on raising resilient daughters amidst challenges. Whether you're a new dad or a seasoned parent, the lessons and strategies discussed provide valuable takeaways for all. The Initial Joy and Unexpected Challenges The Joy of Fatherhood Kevin Baker's journey into fatherhood was initially marked by joy and excitement—emotions that many of us can relate to. Upon learning that he would be having a daughter, his initial thoughts mirrored those of countless new dads: excitement quickly followed by planning. From due dates to potential weather conditions, Kevin and his wife wanted to be prepared for every scenario. Navigating Health Challenges However, their plans changed dramatically when their daughter was diagnosed with Tetralogy of Fallot, a congenital heart condition. This unexpected news threw Kevin and his wife into a whirlwind of medical appointments and surgeries. Through three open-heart surgeries, they learned an invaluable lesson about the unpredictability of life: planning is essential, but flexibility and emotional resilience are paramount. Facing Parenthood Fears Head-On Common Fears Like many fathers, Kevin faced immense fears, particularly concerning his daughter's future independence given her medical challenges. His fear extended into other areas, such as her social and emotional well-being. These fears initially overshadowed his joy but evolved over time. Kevin's story is a testament to the fact that all parents, regardless of their child's health, share common anxieties about their child's future. Overcoming Fear Kevin emphasized the importance of addressing these fears constructively. He learned to channel his anxiety into positive, actionable steps. "Letting go of expectations," he said, allowed him to focus on being present, loving, and patient. This mindset not only alleviated his fears but also enabled his daughter to thrive despite her challenges. Reprogramming the Parental and Child Scripts Resetting as Parents Resetting parental expectations begins with a broad perspective on life. Kevin and his wife realized that life's journey is long and unpredictable. They practiced zooming out to see the bigger picture, understanding that daily worries shouldn't overshadow long-term happiness and success. This perspective shift provided them with emotional stability and resilience, enabling them to navigate their daughter's health issues with greater ease. Empowering Their Daughter For their daughter, reprogramming her mindset involved instilling tools for self-empowerment. Kevin shared how they focused on open communication, consistent encouragement, and helping her develop critical life skills. A significant part of this was educating her about the reality of social media, debunking the myths of perfection that it often portrays. They reinforced her self-worth and capabilities, allowing her to combat negative thoughts effectively. Coaching Tweens and Teens: A Broader Perspective Understanding Teen Angst Working with teens and tweens, both professionally and as a father, has given Kevin unique insights into the adolescent mind. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the thoughts and feelings that teens experience daily. Many teens struggle with feelings of inadequacy, anxiety, and a lack of direction, often exacerbated by societal pressures. Strategies for Parents Kevin's primary advice for parents is to focus on connection and communication. Instead of pressing for immediate answers, he advises listening attentively—considering both words and body language—before responding thoughtfully. He acknowledges that parents might not always be the best confidants for their teens, suggesting the involvement of other trusted adults, like extended family members or professional coaches. Resources and Final Thoughts Kevin's experiences and advice emphasize the importance of patience, understanding, and clear communication in parenting. One resource he recommends is Tara Brach's book, "Radical Acceptance," which advises parents to pause and breathe before reacting. This practice empowers both parent and child to make better decisions. Closing Insights To summarize, Kevin Baker's journey offers invaluable lessons for all parents. His emphasis on patience, flexibility, and emotional resilience can guide us all in raising strong, independent children. Resources like "Radical Acceptance" and coaching can also provide valuable support as we navigate the challenges of parenthood. For those looking to explore more about Kevin's perspectives or seek personalized guidance, he is available through his website, lifecoachkevin.com, and various social media channels. Fatherhood is an ever-evolving role, and by embracing lessons from leaders like Kevin Baker, we can strive to be the best dads we can be.   TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as we are working to be the best dads that we can be and to be able to raise those strong independent women that we all want our daughters to become. And that being said, as I've said in the past, and I'll say it again, I know it is so important that you're here today because that means that you're willing to learn, you're willing to listen, and you're willing to do what it takes to be able to get to that endpoint that you want for yourself and for your family. And to do that, you have to be willing to be open to listening, to learning, and to take it all in, and to figure out what works, and to figure out what works best for you and your family. Everything that you're gonna be hearing today may not work exactly for your family. And that's okay. Because each of us is going to father in different ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: There's not one right way to father, and there's no one playbook to follow to be able to know how best to be a father to your kids. There are so many different ways that you can do that. And what's most important though, is that you're willing to know and you're willing to learn and find some of those other tools that you can add to your own toolbox to put into place and to be able to try some of those out. Because you know what? You might learn something new about yourself and something new that you can put into place to help you be that dad that you wanna be. And that's why in every episode, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences, different dads coming from different walks of life, and as well as other experts, other people that can help you to be that father that you wanna be. And this week, we have another great guest with us. This week, we have Kevin Baker joining us or otherwise known as coach Kevin. And coach Kevin's gonna be talking with us about his own experience as a father of 3, as well as Kevin is a certified life coach who works with families and teams and helps individuals to be able to build the best version of themselves. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:26]: We're gonna be talking about that as well. So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for joining us today. Kevin Baker [00:02:32]: Oh, thanks for having me, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here. And I look forward to getting some insights from you too. This is great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:37]: I really appreciate you being here today. And one of the things that I love to do, 1st and foremost, is turn the clock back in time. And I know you've got 3 kids, 1 daughter, and 2 sons. And I wanna turn the clock all the way back. I know you've got a 14 year old daughter, so let's go back. Maybe it's 13 years, maybe it's 14 years, you never know. But talk to me about that first moment, that first reaction that you had when you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter? Kevin Baker [00:03:02]: Oh, pure excitement and just so much joy. Overwhelming amount actually of excitement. And it quickly turned into, okay, what do I have to do next? What's the next step? What do we do? So a little bit of anxiety being a plan. We started to make arrangements, figure out this is the due date. Kevin Baker [00:03:18]: What's it going to be like? What's the weather going to be like? Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? How are we going to do it? And so we had this great plan. And then fast forward 8 months, final checkup at the doc, they said, We're seeing something with a heart and we want to get you guys over to the hospital to check it out. And 4 days later, our daughter was born and she was diagnosed in utero with a heart condition called Tetralogy of Fallot that would require intervention at some point, which was like a total shock to us. We did not expect this. We had these plans, but what about our plans? And so we very quickly learned that it's great to have plans, but you could pretty much throw those out the window. And that has been the MO for my daughter ever since for the last 14 years. And it's been great. What a great learning experience. Kevin Baker [00:04:01]: What a great way to what a great introduction into parenting is that it's great to have expectations and it's great to have plans, but really it's all out of your control. So don't stress too much about it when things deviate from what your perfect plan was. But fast forward 14 years, she's had 3 open heart surgeries. She had 2, her 1st year of life where they corrected the ASD and the VSD in the heart and fixed one of her valves and also fixed the bundle of tissue that was sort of in the way of things. But she just recently on May 2nd, had her 3rd open heart surgery and is fully recovered from that. And she's been swimming in the lake all summer. So it's been fantastic. And we live right outside of Boston, which is probably one of the best places in the world to have that sort of thing happen. Kevin Baker [00:04:38]: So we're grateful and we're blessed that we've been through it. And it's been a rollercoaster of feelings, ups and downs and but we know life is a long journey and we are giving her all the tools we possibly can for her toolbox to be strong and happy and successful whatever that means to her moving forward in life. So that is the short version of becoming a parent for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:59]: Now, every father that I've talked to talks about fear, and your fears may be very different than some other dads, especially with some of these surgeries that your daughter has had to have in her first 14 years of life. But I'm gonna ask you the question anyways. As you entered into fatherhood, and as you've gone through these 14 years, what's been the biggest fear that you've had in raising a daughter? Kevin Baker [00:05:23]: You know, that's a great question. The biggest fear that I've had, just because my daughter has had so many challenges I would say that she's had to overcome and she still does. She's got some communication issues, you know, some social emotional stuff happening, you know, which a lot of kiddos do. But I think my biggest fear is that she wouldn't be prepared for life outside of the house when it's time for her to be independent. And that was a fear of mine. However, it's not a fear of mine anymore. And I have been able to take all those thoughts and all those fears that I've had and let them go and sort of let go of all my expectations about what she's going to do when she gets older, who she's going to be when she grows up and just know in my heart and in my soul that we're are doing the best job that we possibly can to help this kiddo figure out who she wants to be on her own. And she's learning and she's doing great. Kevin Baker [00:06:12]: And that all gets reinforced to us through parent teacher conferences or speaking with other adults that help out along the way to raise our family and when I'm able to let go of the fears and let go of the expectations and just know that everything's going to be okay because we have the tools to deal with it, then we're all a lot happier for it. And so, I try to not be afraid of anything because that doesn't serve anyone. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:39]: You're not the only father that has had to have those fears and has not had a child that has had to have all of those challenges within her life and that they've had to deal with in their life. But not every father has had to also deal with those. And sometimes things can change. Things can get thrown through a loop, and you've definitely had to deal with that. I guess as I think about that and what you just said, I've got 2 questions. 1st, tell me about what you and your significant other had to do to be able to reset that mindset. I'm gonna say maybe programming. Reset the script that you had in your brain about how things were going to be versus how they were? And then, 2, how have you had to work to help your own daughter to reset her script about the way in which she had to see this for herself? Kevin Baker [00:07:34]: The first an the answer to the first question is that, you know, we really in order to reset the script as parents, we had to zoom way out on life and realize that, you know, life is a long journey. And, you know, everybody goes through stuff day to day that gets you emotional. It gives you different thoughts that you have to work through and overcome. There's a lot of worry. The world is a busy, hectic and anxiety inducing place when you think about all the things that could happen in life. But being able to zoom out and know that, yeah, some days are really, really hard. But if you think about it the right way and you know that tomorrow's another day and it's all going to be fine and we have the tools and we have the for instance, the greatest medical professionals, some of the greatest medical professionals in the world here to help us deal with some of this stuff and know that we are smart and capable adults that can work through any problem that presents itself to us. All we have to do is breathe and reason and have the resources that we were taught to use growing up, that we're going to get through it and it's going to be okay. Kevin Baker [00:08:33]: And yeah, there are a lot of nights where there's anxiety about what's going to happen. Is she going to be okay? Is she going to be able to play on the playground? Is she going to have restrictions? Is she going to be able to get a job one day? Is she going to be able to drive? All these things that us as parents we worry about. But really, if we just focus on being present and showing love and having patience, then we have everything we need to be the best parents we can be and taking the anxiety and the worry about the future out of it and just focus on the present and do the best we can. That's how we get by day to day. And yes, some days are hard, but we get through it. We keep our positive mindset and we get through it and you know it gets better. And once you know it the next day when you tell yourself it's all going to be fine, it actually is. And how has my daughter been able to reset? We've given her a lot of tools and she's developed a lot of tools to be able to keep up with her classmates and her peers and to be able to communicate as effectively as possible with her teachers and her other trusted adults. Kevin Baker [00:09:32]: And we tell her that she's doing a great job and we congratulate her and we're her cheerleader and we keep an open and transparent relationship so we can communicate and try and figure out what thoughts are you having and how can we help you with whatever you're dealing with? And just to keep that open dialogue and communication and let her know that everything's going to be okay. And now that she's 14, a lot of the reset is trying to impress upon her that what some of the stuff she might see online or on social media isn't really the whole truth. And some of these folks may be just showing you the top 1%, all the good stuff that's happening in their life. And maybe you don't have the fear of missing out on that because that might not be a 100% real. So bringing that all back down to reality, is a really important aspect of keeping that reset in play. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:15]: It is such an important thing. I've seen it in my own daughters, and I know that so many parents do, especially in those tween and teen years. And I mentioned the fact that you had a lot of opportunity over your career to be able to work with teens and tweens, to be able to really look at who they want to be, but also how they want to get there, and helping people and helping teens in that way. Kevin Baker [00:10:42]: You know, the number one thing that I hear from kiddos all the time, and one of the things that we work through, because I think it's the most important thing to work through with them, is what is going on in their mind, and what thoughts are they having when they're put in certain situations that are causing the feelings and emotions that they're having that are causing the actions or non action that they're taking, which is leading to results that are either what they're looking for or not what they're looking for. So digging into what issue are they having? Is it an issue about friends? Is it academic performance? Is it something happened to do with anxiety? Or is it a lack of motivation? All these things that the parents see as red flags for instance, when they are, you know, spending too much time on the computer or not getting good grades or not socializing with too many friends or not finding interest in things that are happening in and around their life. And so, what we talk about right off the bat is what are the thoughts that you're having? And a lot of them are having thoughts that they're not good enough or they're never going to make it or, you know, they'll never be, you know, rich and famous or they don't know what they want to do with their life or they're wasting time or, you know, all these negative, deconstructive, limiting beliefs that they've had through inputs from parents, teachers and you know, there's a saying, it's parents, teachers, and preachers that really influence the belief systems that we have and parents influence their kiddos with beliefs without even knowing that they're actually programming the mind of their child. So digging into really what are those beliefs? What are those thoughts you're having? And why are you having that thought that you're not good enough? And how did that come to be? And then dissecting it. And then giving them an opposite, more empowering, constructive thought like actually, you know, with practice, I will be good enough and I could actually be one of the best or I am going to make it. You know, with hard work and persistence, I am going to make it and I'm going to be one of the best. And give them that mindset that when they have one of those negative thoughts and they have a thought that they know is not a fact to analyze that, and they come up with a new thought that empowers them. And when they have the ability to change that, to recognize that they are not their thoughts and the thoughts are just an internal narrative that's happening, everybody has it. Kevin Baker [00:12:53]: It's a voice in their head and everybody has it, but when you can control it so that it tells you so that it doesn't hold you back and it actually pushes you forward so you can get through whatever's holding you back without talking yourself out of it, that's where we want to be with the kiddos. You know, we want to give them the ability to empower themselves when a situation arises so that when they start to feel negative or they have an experience and, you know, they think they're not good enough, that they tell themselves like, hold up, you are good enough, you got this, Just do it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: And one of the things that can get really challenging in those teen and tween years is that your your children are going to are going through this transition, are going through this transition that all of us went through as kids, where they begin to test the waters even more and test the values and the family mores that have been put into place and that they've been growing up with to try to identify who do they, who are they, who do they wanna be, who are they, to try to identify who they are and who they want to be. And that can be really challenging for parents in many different ways. So I guess I'd love to have you talk to me a little bit about the work that you've done with tweens and teens. And as you're working with them as individuals from their perspective, what are you hearing from them? What are some of the things that they're saying to you? And I know you're trying to work with the parents as well because sometimes parents just don't understand as they're trying to parent these kids through what they're going through. So are there things that they can do to be able to reconnect and be able to understand their kids in a different way? Kevin Baker [00:14:28]: Well, that's a great question, and and it's it's almost a trick question because when you're a parent asking those questions and trying to understand your kiddo, they don't always respond, and it doesn't work. Parents, it doesn't work when you're trying to do that with your kiddo. That's why it takes a village, and you need to have other trusted people in your circle that can work with you and your kiddo to get to the bottom of it because they're not gonna be as open with you no matter what. You could be the you could have the closest relationship. Like this kind of stuff doesn't work with my kids. It works great with everybody else's but, you know, there's a thing. We have a limit on what we can do. So and it's just because they see us 20 hours a day or whatever it is. Kevin Baker [00:15:07]: You know, it's because we're there. We have all these other roles and responsibilities that sometimes prevents us from cracking the code with our own kiddos. But I would say that letting your kiddo know that, Hey, I'm here for you if you need anything, like if you want to talk. And really the first thing to do is connect. Like find the one thing that you can do to really connect with your child because it might be sitting down and watching them play a video game and asking them questions about it and then see what conversation comes from that. But showing them that you're there and you care, and then making that judgment as a parent, it's like, Is there something going on? And what can we do to help you get through some of this stuff? And they might have an aunt or uncle that they respect that's not the parent that can come in and open them up a little bit and get into that conversation. Or before you go to therapy, I always say triage with coaching because, you know, a lot of the stuff can be talked through. And when we focus on the positive with coaching, sometimes people don't need to go to therapy. Kevin Baker [00:16:08]: Sometimes they do need to go to therapy. But parents start with connection and communicating and letting them know that you're there and you care is the number one thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:15]: So listening to what you just said, one question that still comes to my mind is if your child is having those thoughts, if you're noticing it, where's the best place to start in having these conversations with them, to engage with them, and to try to help them understanding that we may not understand completely what's going on as well? Doctor. Robert Whitfield Kevin Baker [00:16:33]: (zero forty five:fifty four): And people change along the way. Parents change along the way. I've had 3 kids, and I think that they each have sort of had a different version of me as their father, as I've become a better dad or not, depending on which kid you ask. But we learn, and we get new tools, And I have become a better father. Over the 14 years, you know, you learn as you go, and the kiddos change drastically. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:53]: I love that concept because I think that sometimes parents get themselves into a situation where they're racking their brains, and they're trying to figure out how can I connect with them better? How can I do something to be able to reconnect? And it doesn't always happen. Now, I am making a generalization because every child is different. And as you inevitably probably either have heard or will hear, older people are always saying to newer parents, oh, you know, just wait until those teenage years. Well, the teenage years are not always going to be challenging. They may be, but they're not always going to be. So you have to realize that every child is different. And when you have multiple kids, each of your children may be different when it comes to how they go through their tween and teenage year experiences for themselves. So as you're going through this with your kids and you're realizing that each of your children are going to be different, sometimes you have kids that are going through this at the same time, and you have to have a different approach. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:53]: And you have to have a different approach to working with your children. It's not always a rinse, wash, and repeat. What do you say to parents when it comes to parenting multiple tween or teens during the same period? Because we know that each of them are not going to be able to go through the same process together. Kevin Baker [00:18:12]: Yeah. I think it's important to know that all kids are different. And, yes, they all come from you, but they are all very, very much different. And they all have their own vision. They all have their own vision, their own subconscious, and, and they all need to be treated similarly, but they're all gonna have different needs. And so trying to identify, I guess, what each kiddo needs that's different from one another is something you have to really be aware of. And that comes from listening. And when your child's talking to you, not racking your brain, thinking about what you're gonna say back to them, but to actually just listen, like to all the words and how they're saying it and what their body language is telling you while they say it. Kevin Baker [00:18:52]: And then take all that information in and determine what your response is going to be. And to not react right away, but to give it time and pause and let everything they're saying go through the emotional part of processing and give it a minute and then reply with a reasoned response is the best way to try and figure out who each one of your kiddos is individually. And then let them know that they have such special characteristics and, you know, they have this unique identifier that is them and their personality and what you love about it to help foster that sense of individuality and to build up their self confidence and their self esteem and their self-concept because they all need to have, they all need to know their important qualities and their characteristics and their values. Like you might have a kiddo who's very sensitive and empathetic and caring and loving and really cherishes family and friendships. And you might have another kiddo who is a little bit, I don't know, more outgoing. Maybe they're a jokester. You know, maybe they are the life of the party. You know, maybe they were always the ones doing magic tricks growing up, trying to be the center of attention. Kevin Baker [00:20:00]: You know, so all kids are different, and they all have their different qualities in trying to foster that so that your kiddos grow up with their own sense of self-concept which will carry them through life. And that's the thing that on the hard days when they get faced with an issue with friends or something academically that they can say like, You know what? I'm really smart and I can do this. Or, I am super friendly and no matter what that person says, like, I know I'm me and I am a great person and I can do this and I can make these friends or whatever the case may be, but giving them that sense of self. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:30]: Now, I know that you've worked with a lot of not only tweens and teens but also parents. And as you work with these individuals, are there any resources that you encourage parents or fathers to refer to as they're going through this period of time with their teen and tweens? Kevin Baker [00:20:45]: I mean, there are some great podcasts out there, this being one of them. There's so many different resources for parents to dig in and to really spend time paying attention to. I think one of the authors that I think is really hitting the nail on the head is her name is Tara Brach. Tara Brach wrote and really the essence of it is to when you are faced with a situation with your kiddo and you don't know what to do, and maybe you're having an argument, maybe you want them to do some chores that they are procrastinating on. Maybe there's something you need them to do that they're not doing it and you're about to get really with them, but to pause and breathe. The book is called Radical Acceptance. And in essence, it is, you know, accept that your kiddo is their own person and they know the right answers in their subconscious. They know what to do and they want to please their parents. Kevin Baker [00:21:36]: And if we pause and we breathe and we give them a chance to do that without intervening, kids will make the right decisions. And to be able to practice that and then actually see it happen, like right before you knock on your kiddo's door, after you've asked them to come down for dinner half a dozen times and they're still up there playing Fortnite or whatever it is, just walk away and don't nag them anymore and let them make the decision and let them make the choice and have the consequence because it's all a learning experience. And reading that book, Radical Acceptance, was a game changer for me in parenting and I'm happy to share that resource with whoever's interested. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:10]: Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Kevin Baker [00:22:18]: Yep. Ready. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:18]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Kevin Baker [00:22:20]: Patience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:21]: When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Kevin Baker [00:22:25]: When she made the honor roll. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]: Now, if I was to talk to your 3 kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Kevin Baker [00:22:30]: Maybe cringey. A little bit cringe. It's a new term that when I tell my dad jokes, they don't sometimes they don't find them funny, they find them cringey. But I'd say fun, most of the time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:38]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Kevin Baker [00:22:40]: Let's say my father. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:41]: Now, you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that every dad can think about. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Kevin Baker [00:22:47]: I would say breathe. Breathe. When it gets tough, just breathe and let the emotion pass because emotions change. You might have an emotion of anger or being overwhelmed or being anxious about a certain situation your kid may or may not be faced with. But I think breathing is the most important thing we can do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:03]: Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you for helping teens and tweens, and thank you for being here today for sharing your wisdom on working with those teens and tweens, and for telling us more about your experience as a father. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go? Kevin Baker [00:23:17]: Sure. They can go to life coach Kevin.com. So on Instagram at life coach Kevin and on Facebook at teen life coach. Happy to have consultation calls with anyone that's seen some red flags. If you're frustrated or confused with what's going on with your kiddo, feel free to sign up for a call, and we can chat through it and see if working together might be the right fit. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]: I really appreciate you being here today, and I wish you all the best. Kevin Baker [00:23:37]: Same here, Chris. Thanks a lot. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:38]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

This week on the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had the pleasure of sitting down with Efrem Martin, a dedicated father of four daughters and a passionate advocate for intentional fatherhood. In this engaging discussion, Efrem shared his personal journey, the unique challenges he faced, and his inspiration behind writing his book, "Daddy's Girl's: A Father's How-to in Building Lifelong Relationships with our Daughter's," and starting the Girl Dad YouTube channel. Here are some profound insights from their conversation. The Beginning of Efrem Martin's Fatherhood Journey One of the key moments in Efrem's life was discovering that he would become a father to a daughter for the first time. Reflecting on that time, Efrem admitted to feeling a mix of nervousness and excitement. As a young man of 23 and a Marine transitioning into civilian life, he was embarking on a monumental chapter in his life. Despite some initial fears, Efrem expressed a unique perspective: he always wanted daughters because he believed they would make him a better man. He credited his upbringing, particularly being raised by a nurturing mother in a single-parent household after the tragic loss of his father, with preparing him for this role. He drew strength and inspiration from his mother's unwavering support and the exemplary male figures—his uncles, cousins, and coaches—who stepped in to mentor him. Overcoming Adversity and Becoming a Role Model Efrem's father was murdered when Efrem was only two years old, fundamentally shaping his upbringing. Though he grew up without a father, Efrem found guidance in other male role models, like his coaches, who treated him like their own son. These experiences instilled in him the importance of having strong, positive male influences and reinforced his commitment to being an involved and supportive dad. Having worked for 20 years in the criminal justice system and 10 years in K-12 education, Efrem witnessed firsthand the detrimental effects of the criminal justice system on children and families. This professional backdrop fueled his determination to ensure his daughters stayed out of the system and thrived in a safe, nurturing environment. Efrem Martin's Philosophy: Raising Free Thinkers Efrem's approach to fatherhood extends beyond mere presence; it is about fostering independence and critical thinking in his daughters. He emphasized the importance of raising his girls to be free thinkers rather than focusing solely on independence. By encouraging them to challenge the world around them and question everything, Efrem prepared his daughters to navigate life with self-awareness and confidence. This philosophy is encapsulated in his self-published book, "Daddy's Girls," where he outlines the stages of development from birth to adulthood. Additionally, his Grow Dat YouTube channel serves as a platform to further elaborate on these concepts, providing fathers with data-driven insights, visual aids, and practical guidance on raising daughters. The Grow Dat YouTube Channel: Fostering a Community of Learning Launched in July 2023, Efrem's Grow Dat YouTube channel is a treasure trove of wisdom and support for fathers. With over 55 livestreams covering diverse topics, Efrem draws from his extensive experience and professional background to offer valuable content. His goal is not to amass a large following but to attract the right audience—fathers genuinely seeking to improve their parenting skills. Unlike other platforms, Efrem's channel delves into deeper, more complex issues of fatherhood, leveraging his knowledge in criminal justice and education to provide context and solutions. His dedication to building this community organically reflects his commitment to authenticity and meaningful engagement. Looking Ahead: A Vision for Greater Engagement Efrem has ambitious plans for the future of Grow Dat. Starting in 2025, he aims to transform the channel into a more interactive space, featuring one-on-one engagements with fathers. He believes that real-time conversations and shared experiences can enrich the learning process for everyone involved. By fostering a supportive network of dads, Efrem hopes to create a space where fathers can share their struggles, triumphs, and insights in raising daughters. Conclusion: Consistency as the Cornerstone Towards the end of the podcast, Efrem shared his core advice for fathers: be consistent. Consistency, he believes, is the foundation of effective parenting. It provides daughters with a sense of security, allowing them to grow into confident, independent, and thoughtful individuals. Efrem Martin's journey and insights remind us that fatherhood is a profound and ongoing adventure. Through his book, his YouTube channel, and his unwavering dedication, Efrem continues to inspire fathers to embrace their roles with commitment, compassion, and a desire for continuous growth. For more about Efrem Martin, his book "Daddy's Girls," and the Grow Dat YouTube channel, visit his channels and social media as outlined in the podcast episode. Remember, as fathers, we have the power to shape the next generation, one loving, consistent day at a time.   TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC_ Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.  Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to help you be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, an opportunity to be able to talk every week and be able to work through what it means to be a dad to a daughter. And the biggest thing that I keep telling you over and over again is that being a father to a daughter is not always going to be the easiest, but you don't have to do this alone. And that's the thing that is most important is that you show up every week. You show up not only for your daughters, but show up for this. And you and you can hear from other dads, other people that have resources and things that you can do day in, day out to be that engaged dad that you wanna be. That's why this podcast exists. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:09]: It exists to help you to be able to be the dad you wanna be and help you raise those strong, independent women that you want your daughters to be. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Efrem Martin is with us today, and Efrem is a father of 4 girls and owner of the Girl Dad YouTube Channel. And we're going to talk about his own journey in being a dad, but also some things that he's doing to be able to help dads just like you to be those girl dads that they want to be as well. So I'm really excited to have him with us today. Efrem, thanks so much for being here today. Efrem Martin [00:01:41]: Thank you for having me, sir. Appreciate you. Appreciate you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:44]: Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And the first and and and first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. I wanna go all the way back. I know your oldest is 36, so I wanna go all the way back. It might be 36 years, might be 35 years, but we're gonna go all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Efrem Martin [00:02:05]: It was crazy. Nervous, excited, just all the above. And baby girls, they change your world. They change your life. So it was, I was young, 23. So very excited, though. Very excited. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:17]: Now I talk to a lot of dads, and a lot of dads step into fatherhood and they're a little scared. Not only being scared of being a father, but when you put on that extra layer of being a father to a daughter, there's some additional fear. What would you say was your biggest fear in raising daughters? Efrem Martin [00:02:35]: I think for me, just getting out of the marine corps, I was, you know, I was in the United States Marine Corps and, transitioning out and just being young, just getting my life in order, just planning and trying to understand exactly the direction I was gonna go, getting into school, making sure I got my bachelor's degree, and just planning out my life more than anything else. So that in itself was nervous for me, but I knew I was gonna be a good dad. I wasn't so much worried about that. It was just, it was exciting more than anything else. And, just looking forward to the, challenge because I actually if you believe me or not, I actually wanted daughters because I knew that they would make me a better man. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:16]: So when you say that you knew that being a father to a daughter would make you a better man, talk to me about that. What was it about being a father to a daughter that made you feel that way? Efrem Martin [00:03:27]: Being raised, I came from a single parent household because my father was murdered when I was 2. Okay? So being raised without a father myself and having this incredible mother, My mother was the most nurturing, incredible woman. So getting everything from her, she couldn't teach me how to be a man, but she was just such a nurturer, and she was very attentive. So I got a lot of great qualities from her. And like I said, I didn't have my my father, but I always had my uncles. I had my first cousins. I had my brothers. So I always had good men in my life. Efrem Martin [00:04:00]: I've never been taken advantage of as I was never taken advantage of as a child, as a kid, and my community embraced me as a as a child. So I always had good men in my life. And all the men in my life, even though I didn't have a father, they were all married. So they had their own children. And that was my experience. I wasn't exposed to a lot of single parents in my life. So not having a father, I didn't really know what to expect because I didn't have a man to guide me, but I knew that I had it in me to be this good father to a baby girl. And like I said, having my mother, I've been around my aunts my whole life, my sisters. Efrem Martin [00:04:37]: I I'm the youngest of of of 5. So being the baby, my sisters will tell you I got over, but I don't think so. I just think I was smarter because my mom was tired by the time she got to me. But I was a good kid, so I never gave my mom any any problems. I was an athlete my entire life. And so I don't think you're ever ready, but coming out of the marine corps, I had a lot more focus. I was very well disciplined, and I wasn't really, really concerned. I was I was looking forward to the journey more than anything else. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:05]: So talk to me about the fact that you just mentioned with your father getting murdered at such an young age for you and not having a father in that way in your life. You had other male role models, other people in your life. How did that impact you as you grew up and moved into fatherhood to be able to be the dad that you wanted to be even though you didn't have that father figure per se in your life? Efrem Martin [00:05:32]: Okay. So for me, because I was an athlete, I played sports year round. So all my coaches, they were married, and they had their own children. So I had good men in my life that I was able to watch how they interacted with their children. And that was major for me. It was, it impacted my life because I was just one of very few boys that didn't have a father. Everyone else around me had their dads. People ask me, do you think you lost out on anything? Absolutely. Efrem Martin [00:05:58]: I think I lost out on a lot, but I never focused on that because I was so busy. And like I said, the men that I had access to, a Latino man in my life, a white man in my life, and I had these men in my life. I didn't have a lot of well, the black men I had in my life, they were my uncles. I grew up in a community back in the seventies. It was the Chicano community, so they were all Latin men, Latinos. So all my coaches, they were either Latino or white men, but they were good men. So as a kid, that's what I focused on, and they were just good to me. And they treated me like their own. Efrem Martin [00:06:31]: So I think what I came to understand as I got older was that you need good men in your life. And as long as you have good men in your life, you're pretty much capable of everything. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:42]: Now raising kids is not always easy. There are definite positive times and hard times as well. As you look back at the years of raising your daughters into the women that they've become today, what was the hardest part in being a father to a daughter? Efrem Martin [00:06:59]: You know, I have a totally different skill set because I worked in the criminal justice system for 20 years, and then I worked in k 12 education for 10 years. So I worked with children for 30 years. So my difficulty was making sure that they didn't end up in the criminal justice system, and I had examples on what not to do. So I was able to maneuver a lot differently. I didn't have a lot of the challenges, I believe, that a lot of fathers were going to experience because being a state juvenile probation officer and working with these these children that were adjudicated and just seeing families get messed over by the criminal justice system, I just knew this was not gonna be my children. So I learned early in my career that I have to have hope and I have to believe that if something was to happen to me, that there's going to be good adults out there that would step in and make sure that my daughters were taken care of like I was taking care of these children. So I wasn't really I just had a different sense of urgency, and the criminal justice system just it's not good for kids. So that kept me that kept me focused because what I was dealing with every day as a state juvenile probation officer and just seeing how kids got messed over, not my daughters. Efrem Martin [00:08:14]: There's no way. And I wasn't going to invite the government into my life. I was not ever going to allow the government to have a say in the rearing of my children because when you do that, the more the government gets involved, the more say they have, the more adults that are involved. Your voice isn't heard as a parent. So my YouTube channel, Grow Dat YouTube channel, what I do is with my live streams and my videos is is I go a lot deeper, and I'm able to explain, I believe, all the stages of development. My book Daddy's Girls, I cover 3 stages of development, birth to 10 years of age, 11 to 13, and 14 to 18. And I explain in my book the sense of urgency that fathers need to have in order to build long term sustainable relationships with their daughters, with their baby girls. So this is my way of giving back. Efrem Martin [00:09:04]: All my daughters are adults. They're out of the house, and I just wanna see all fathers do well with their children regardless of their ethnic group background and or culture. So this is why I decided to launch my YouTube channel. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:19]: So let's talk about what you are creating, what you have created, the book that you've put out there. As an author myself, I know there's a lot of passion that has to go into being able to get through the writing of a book. And you mentioned the self published book that you put out there, Daddy's Girls, that's now available on Amazon that that you've written. Talk to me about the inception of that and what made you decide that you wanted to put the time, the effort, the passion into writing it, but also trying to get it out into the world for others to read and to learn from and grow from. Efrem Martin [00:09:50]: So I already knew when when my youngest daughter, Cheyenne, got to high school in 2014, it was just her I had her and my daughter, Zuri. They were the last 2. And Zuri was gonna be graduating in 2016. Cheyenne was going to be graduating in 2018. I decided in 2014, once Cheyenne graduates, I was going to write my book. I wanted to get them through all the stages so I could have a little bit more substance in my explanation. Having the background that I have working in the criminal justice system in K-twelve education, I was a teacher, restorative justice coordinator, and dean of students. So having the background of working on the back end of the criminal justice system and the front end of k 12 education, I just believe I could I would be able to explain to fathers what's coming. Efrem Martin [00:10:35]: I don't tell fathers how to raise their children, their baby girls. What I explain to fathers is this is what's coming. And I believe that I could lay a framework of understanding so they have a better understanding of what's coming with their daughters. Daughters are very, very complex, as you know. You have a daughter. You have daughters. Daughters are very complex because they're going to have emotional highs and emotional lows. And understanding the different stages of development, I wish I had somebody like me when I was raising my daughters because it would have helped explain a lot of different things. Efrem Martin [00:11:08]: YouTube was it came to the forefront around 2,005. So by 2010, my girls were pretty much they were not grown girls, but they were well on their way. The book itself is very complimentary of my YouTube channel, of my live streams, and my videos. And like I said, I just believe that I'm able to go a lot deeper. There are other YouTube channels that are out there that are that are dealing with fathers of daughters. Most of them are normally dealing with daughters under 10 years of age, and they're amazing. I get to go a lot deeper, I believe, because of my professional experience as well as my experience as a father and living it every day. And all my girls are grown, and they're amazing women. Efrem Martin [00:11:55]: So I'm able to explain, I believe, a lot of things for fathers and save them a lot of steps. And I just look forward to the engagement because I'm very interested where fathers are at at the different stages and how I can help them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:07]: So you went from having this book to, as you were talking about, creating this YouTube page to, again, try to get some of your messaging out. What kind of response have you been getting to not only the book, but the YouTube channel and trying to and what are you trying to mostly share, and what are you hoping that people are gonna take away from reading the book or watching your videos that you're putting out into the world? Efrem Martin [00:12:29]: Well, I'm big on engagement, and the purpose of my YouTube channel is to get engagement because I know fathers are busy. I believe that my engagement has been well. I the book is doing well, and the YouTube channel, I'm building it organically. Now I could go a whole different direction with my YouTube channel and have 10,000 subscribers or 20,000 subscribers. I'm not interested in having a lot of subscribers. I'm interested in having the right subscribers. And YouTube is very YouTube I'm learning a lot from YouTube. It's very interesting, the dynamics of YouTube, the space of YouTube. Efrem Martin [00:13:05]: So I'm learning a lot from YouTube. And my overall goal, like I said, is to help fathers understand our sense of urgency. So I believe the engagement has been amazing. I don't get a lot of comments because I think fathers there's a lot of fathers. I just think they're nervous. And we're men. Right? And a lot of men, we're just not sure. And so this great content I'm putting out, it's in the hands of fathers. Efrem Martin [00:13:28]: I'm going to eventually get my audience. It's coming. And I just I'm ready. To date, I've done 55 livestreams since, July of 2023, so I'm I'm consistent. And in 2025, I'm gonna change things up a little bit. I wanna have more of an engagement type channel. So it's going in stages, but I'm happy that I'm able to do a livestream every week, use data statistics, use visual aids videos, and share. So the fathers that come across my YouTube channel, I can help them, and they'll eventually we're we're gonna eventually connect. Efrem Martin [00:14:02]: Right now, I have about 802 subscribers. So like I said, building organically, I won't do it any other way. Oh, so as a author, self published. I self published my book in February of 2020, and then the pandemic happened in March. So for 2 years, there wasn't anything I could do. And I I really even though my book was out there, I really just wanted to take this opportunity and just wait until the pandemic was over because the pandemic just it changed the world. And although my book was brand new, I didn't really wanna bother fathers because the world was just dealing with too much. So I figured, you know what? Let me wait. Efrem Martin [00:14:43]: It took a couple years, so I figured, hey, July of 2023, let me start this YouTube channel. My book's already self published. It's out there. It's time. So I was excited about that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:53]: So you said that you're changing things up in 2025 and or 2024, 2025. Talk to me about what's next. What's changing? You know, where are you going from here? Efrem Martin [00:15:04]: So when you look at my videos now, what I typically do is I give commentary on my experience, and I connect videos with the topics. I have 55 livestreams, 55 different topics, which is very difficult to do, very difficult to do. So I rely a lot on my experience as a as a state juvenile probation officer and working in k twelve education. That's where I draw a lot of my topics as far as being able to go deeper. And visual aids, I know fathers, they have a lot of questions. They have a lot of concerns. But I believe that the visual aids will help them. And YouTube has everything. Efrem Martin [00:15:40]: If you can't find it on YouTube, you can't find it. So that's where I'm currently at. And and what I wanna transition into in 2025 is having more of a 1 on 1 like you and I are having right now. That's what I'm interested in. I want more engagement from from different fathers. I I wanna I wanna hear their feedback. I wanna I wanna hear their how they're thinking, how they're feeling. Because there's a lot of fathers out there that have a lot of great ideas, and and I think that they could bring a lot to the table as as far as their own personal experiences of of fathers because we're all at different stages in our lives. Efrem Martin [00:16:11]: Like I said, all my daughters are adults, so I no longer have them at home. So I'm at a totally different stage, and I just believe that that type of engagement on screen, I just think that it it it'll take it to a whole different level. And that's what I'm excited about that. But like I said, I've been building my capacity, and I think I'm doing well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:29]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Sure. Absolutely. In one word, what is fatherhood? Consistency. When was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Efrem Martin [00:16:44]: Once they all graduated from high school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:46]: Now if I were to talk to your girls, how would they describe you as a dad? Efrem Martin [00:16:50]: My girls, what how would they describe me? Totally laid back. They'll tell you I'm the best father in the world. Great listener, consistent, understanding, passionate, attentive, just a great human being. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Efrem Martin [00:17:04]: My inspiration comes from other fathers, actually, and just seeing how they're doing things with their baby girls. Because like I said, my experience is my experience. So I'm always looking at other fathers and how how they're moving and how they're maneuvering in the world and getting it done. That that excites me because it I'm gen x. Right? So millennials and and Gen z, they do things totally different. So that excites me. I'm interested in that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:29]: Now you've given a number of pieces of advice today. You've talked about some of the experiences that you had in raising your daughters. As you think about all dads that are out there and as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Efrem Martin [00:17:43]: One piece of advice I would give to fathers, this is my first statement that you ask me, consistency. As long as you're consistent, your baby girls are gonna be fine. It's the consistency that I believe that allows us to provide that protection and safety and allows our daughters to grow. When we talk about the independence of our daughters, I didn't raise my daughters to be independent. I raised my daughters to be free thinkers. And the reason I did that was because I wanted them to challenge the world and have an open enough mind to be able to question everything. So I took a different path. I raised them to be free thinkers. Efrem Martin [00:18:20]: They are definitely free thinkers, just like their father, which I believe allows them to embrace all of humanity. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]: Now, if people want to find out more about you, your book, your where's the best place for them to go to be able to find out more? Efrem Martin [00:18:33]: Definitely. You can find my YouTube channel at Girl Dad YouTube channel. It's on YouTube. I'm also on rubo.rumbo.com.martineframb, that's myrumbo.com. My book is available at amazon.com. You can get that directly through Amazon dotcom. Also, it's, available through my YouTube channel. It's always in it's in the description on of each of my, live streams and my videos. Efrem Martin [00:19:00]: So that's the best way to get a hold of me. I'm on Facebook. I'm on TikTok. I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter. So I use technology to my advantage. I've always been on the forefront of technology. I love technology. Efrem Martin [00:19:14]: I love young people and and seeing how they move with technology. So I'm on the forefront of technology. So that's how you can find me. But my YouTube channel, I'm very proud of it. Grow Dad YouTube channel. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:27]: Well, I just wanna say thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your story, for work that you're doing to help other dads, and I truly wish you all the best. Efrem Martin [00:19:36]: No. I appreciate you. And eventually, I'm going to bring you on to my YouTube channel because I think it would be good. And like I said, I appreciate connecting with you. So thank you for your time, sir. Appreciate you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:48]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Blast calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

In this week's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ryan Senters, a dedicated father of two biological children and nine adopted kids, who also runs a nonprofit, called Ohana, providing housing and support for foster children. We discussed the joys and fears of fatherhood, the challenges of raising daughters, and the importance of being intentional in parenting. The First Steps of Fatherhood Finding Out You're Going to Be a Dad Recalling the moment he found out he was going to be a father to his first daughter, Brooklyn, Ryan Senters felt a wave of excitement and a profound sense of responsibility. He and his wife had been trying to conceive for two years, making the news even more special. Ryan described feeling the urgency to "get this right," a sentiment many new fathers can relate to. "When we found out that I was gonna have our daughter, Brooklyn, just yeah. Sure excitement and a sense of, like, probably responsibility of, like, oh, jeez. I gotta take this serious here. I gotta make sure that I do this right." — Dr. Ryan Senters Overcoming Fears Many fathers admit to feeling a unique set of fears when they learn they're expecting a daughter. Ryan was no different, expressing anxiety about being present and doing everything "right," especially since he lacked a paternal role model growing up. He noted the irrationality of some of these fears but acknowledged how they shaped his approach to fatherhood. "I was just worried that I needed to make sure that I know it's not a right way, but in my head, I was very thick. I had this fixed mindset. I would needed to get this right." — Dr. Ryan Senters The Challenges of Raising Daughters Being a Role Model One of Ryan's significant concerns was modeling the kind of man he wanted his daughters to value in their future. He emphasized the importance of being intentionally present, not just for his daughters but also for his wife, to set a positive example. His daughters, one biological and one adopted, keep looking to him for wisdom and guidance. "They deserve to be independent and helping them develop self-confidence. They need to have a dad in their corner that's cheering them on and an example to what it means to have a man in their life." — Dr. Ryan Senters Balancing Life and Responsibilities As a busy professional and father of many, Ryan discussed the concept of balance. He highlighted the seasonality of responsibilities and stressed the importance of mental reset techniques, like the photo in his garage that reminds him of his primary job when entering his home. Ryan advocates for being an "intentional father" rather than just a "present" one, incorporating activities like tech-free Sundays to foster family bonds. The Adoption Journey Deciding to Adopt Ryan and his wife always felt a calling towards fostering and adopting children. They opened their home to numerous children over 15 years, offering them a loving and stable environment. Ryan shared touching stories about his adopted children, like his daughter Pima, who struggled with her past but found strength and identity within their family. "We have this mantra in our family: you are strong, you are brave, and you are kind. And so when she gets that, you are so strong... That's a big moment for us." — Dr. Ryan Senters Expanding the Family The decision to adopt more children came with challenges. Ryan recalled selling their home to move into a larger space that could accommodate five more children, a testament to their dedication and love. Their nonprofit, Ohana, named after a meaningful family quote, strives to find forever families for kids in need, embodying the belief that every child deserves a family. "Ohana means family and family means no one's left behind or forgotten. And it was so significant for our family." — Dr. Ryan Senters Building a Legacy: Ohana Ryan also spoke about his nonprofit organization, Ohana, which provides crucial support, housing, and family connections for foster children. His work not only benefits his family but extends to helping other families navigate the complexities of fostering and adoption. "Our belief is that every child deserves a family. Our belief is that a kid's past story doesn't define them. And what we have learned is that if a family is consistent and present, any child's past hurts can be healed." — Dr. Ryan Senters Conclusion Ryan Senters' journey is a testament to the power of intentional fatherhood and the impact a loving, supportive family can have on a child's life. His story encourages all dads to step up, be present, and be intentional in their parenting, whether with biological or adopted children. For more insights and stories like Ryan's, check out the Dads with Daughters podcast and consider diving into additional resources available at fatheringtogether.org. TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you because you and I are on a journey together. I've got 2 daughters, you've got daughters. We are working through this trying to figure it out as we go along. None of us have all the answers. So it's important to be able to learn from other people and be open to learning from other people. And that's why this show is here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: This show is here to be able to provide you resources, provide you opportunities to, to hear from other dads, other people with different experiences that can help you to be the dad that you wanna be and help you to raise your daughters to be those strong independent women that you want them to be as well. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Ryan Centers is with us today, and Ryan is a father of 2 biological kids, 9 adopted kids, but he also runs a nonprofit that has been able to provide housing and support for more than 500 foster children. He's a busy guy, And I am really excited to have him here to learn more from him and his journey and to introduce him to you. Ryan, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:01:35]: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:36]: It is my pleasure. And I love being able to learn from other dads. And, one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. So I wanna go all the way back to your first biological daughter, that daughter that that made you a father. But I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:01:56]: My wife and I were trying to get pregnant for a lot probably 2 years. So probably it was just more excitement than anything else. We really didn't have any expectation, boy or girl, but when we found out that I was gonna have our daughter, Brooklyn, just yeah. Sure excitement and a sense of, like, probably responsibility of, like, oh, jeez. I gotta take this serious here. I gotta make sure that I do this right. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Oh, and I don't know that there is one right way to do it. There isn't one right way to do it. So a lot of dads say, I've got to get this right. I got to do it right. There's got to be a right way to do it. And I keep saying, no, there's not. There's not one right way. There's lots of ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]: So thinking back to those first days of being a dad, and I I talk to a lot of dads with daughters and a lot of dads are there's fear going into being a father, but there's also a fear of being a father to a daughter. What was your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:02:47]: Yeah. I guess when I was as I think back, I think generally when we when I had my little girl in my in my arms, I was just like, one, just never have done this before and kinda felt a little bit useless. My wife did a great job and was very patient very patient with me. And obviously, I wanted to be involved, but I guess my fear being with my, daughter is that I needed to, I don't know, just being present. I was just worried that I needed to make sure that I know it's not a right way, but in my head I was very thick. I had this fixed mindset. I would needed to get this right. So it was a little bit irrational and a little bit probably not correct, but I was 28 years old and trying to figure this out. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:03:27]: And I was like, oh, shoot. I need to make sure that this like, my dad, Nessa, wasn't active in my life, so I didn't really have a picture of that. So I didn't have a compass to kinda help direct that. So for me, I it produced a little bit of anxiety in the beginning stages because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing it wrong. And I think my past story and, like, my my family of origin really kinda impacted and shaped how I viewed and my fears kind of were a little bit irrational starting off. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:56]: Now, as I mentioned, you've got a few daughters and a number of sons that you've adapted as well. And I guess as you think about your daughters and raising your daughters into the women that they have become, what's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:04:11]: I think for me, probably the hardest part of being a father to daughter is just making sure I'm modeling to them what they want for their future spouse is I have to be intentional and present with my kids, but also intentionally and present with my wife and kind of model that. I know they're watching, especially now my daughter's 14, My adopted daughter's 25, and she's now married. So they're coming to us for wisdom and guidance, and I wanna make sure that I'm helping model what they're a princess and, like, they deserve the best and they deserve to be independent. They're gonna be independent and helping them develop self confidence. They need to have a dad in their corner that's cheering them on and an example to what it means to have a man in their life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: I mentioned that you're a busy guy. You're running a nonprofit. You work in a community college and working with students there. You are doing a lot of different things. You've got a large family as well where you're balancing all of that. Talk to me about balance and what you've had to do to be able to balance your professional life, your personal life, to be that dad that you wanted to be. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:05:21]: I guess when I think of the word balance, I don't necessarily know about if you're ever gonna balance it all out, but there is gonna be seasonality of certain things. So as I'm growing a business and then also building out a nonprofit, there is seasons where I have to be super intentional with that. And then there are seasons when like this summer, I'm just fully present with my kids. And one of the things that I've always tried to do is actually, as I go into my garage at home, there's a picture on the front and the driveway, as I go to park and it is a mental reset in my head that says, all right, this is my first ministry. This is my most important thing. This is my number one job is I don't get to just go home and just veg out. Even if I had a stressful conversation, stressful workday, have a bunch of deals undone, or I've had hard conversations. Like I have to get the reserve out of the tank and I have to reset my mind and say like, alright. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:06:14]: So it's like a visual representation as I'm walking into my house that I'm like, alright. First ministry engaged with my kids. And what I've learned is that, like, there are certain moments with kids that are more, like, are more critical than others. So like early in the morning when they're waking up 5 minutes of attentional time, 1 on 1 eating breakfast together around the dinner table, there's no tech. There is time to like, and in the evening, going to saying prayers or going to bed at night. That's a really critical moment for our family. And then we've also built into our schedule. Like we have tech free Sundays, so it's kind of unique. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:06:49]: We got 9 kids at home and they like technology just matches any other kid, but that's like a family day of like intentionality. I think there's been a shift with parenthood and fatherhood that it used to be like, Hey, in the old days, if you could just like make sure they're taken care of, that's great. Then it's the last probably 2 decades been like be a present father. But I think now I think that's halfway right. But I think now it needs to be like, now you need to be an intentional father, intentional to how you want them to develop. So for us, intentionality is critical. So for us, we do tech free Sundays. We have like a family breakfast. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:07:25]: We'll go to play ball or play basketball, and we'll do some kind of activity together and laugh. Have fun play together when parents and dads play with their kids, play with their daughters, that's like releases so much stress and brings bond and it develops like oxytocin in the brain. And it's very important for kids to feel bonded and safe. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:48]: So I mentioned that you have your 2 biological kids, you have 9 adopted kids. Tell me the story of moving into being a adoptive father and what that journey was like for you that made you and your wife decide that you wanted to move down that path? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:08:06]: So we had a one biological daughter, Brooklyn. She's 14 now. And then we always felt called. I worked in a shelter in graduate school, working with kids in coming out of jail or had didn't have families. And I just fell in love with that work and knew that that was part of our path. It's crazy. Even at, you're not really twenties, my wife and I knew like, Hey, we're going to be a foster parent someday, which is pretty abnormal. So when we started, after we had our first daughter, we opened up our license. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:08:31]: We've been foster grand for 15 years, have taken in, I would say about 15 kids and we had 4 for a little over 12 years ago, we had 4 kids under 4, which is a lot. And we had 2 biological kids and then 2 adopted kids and our life felt pretty good. I was working in a foster care group homes and there is a girl there though, she's 14 years old and she's was one of like very quiet and reserved and she was available for adoption. And I just kind of developed a bond with her. And my wife actually saw her on these websites that were talking about adoption and she kept pointing her out to me. And long story short, we just kind of felt called to take a leap. And we, we took her in as a 14 year old and she was the most shy reserved girl. She never played any sports in her life. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:09:16]: I remember her senior year, she, we finally convinced her to go on some kind of sports team and she did badminton. I was like, oh, sweet badminton. And if you've ever went to a badminton game or a, a match, it's quiet. And I didn't know the rules and she's hitting the birdie and hitting it over. And I'm just, we're just cheering her and all of our siblings just cheering her on like crazy. And we didn't know the etiquette of the of the sport at all. But what I was so proud is that her senior year, she's been quiet and reserved her whole life. We go to do the banquet and she got player of the year and we were so proud of her. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:09:53]: We have this mantra in our family and we, we say it over our kids. We think identity and language is really important for kids. So we say Pima, our daughter, you are strong, you are brave and you are kind, you are strong, you are brave, and you are kind. We say that's three things over and over again. In our business, we have them that says, you are strong, you are brave, you are kind. And so when she gets that payment, you are so strong. And like, or when she was nervous to go get her go to the community for the first time and go, Hey, I'm going to drive you up there, but you got to walk in. So dad, I can't do it. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:10:22]: Dad, I can't do it. No. Pima, you are strong. You are brave. Let's go. And she stepped out and did that. And I remember so vividly her freshman year, she was finishing up her community college test and she went across the street to go get something to eat. And she looks over and she sees this guy panhandling on the street and are panhandling it. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:10:41]: And she looks over and does a double take. And she realized she recognizes this guy, but he looks at her and he doesn't recognize her. She looks again, her heart starts to race and she says, dad, and it's her biological dad who's been an addict most of his life, is homeless on the street. And he said, do I know you? And he didn't even recognize her. And it just threw her in a spin. And that evening she comes home. We don't hear about this. She comes home and we're putting our younger four to bed and she's there with us. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:11:07]: And she tells my wife and I this story. And she's shaking and she's sitting to us and then just starts to cry. And we say, Pima, you are strong, you are brave, and you are kind. You are loved. You are a center. You are so important in trying to speak that over her where someone feels so insecure and feels like nothing. And for girls, that's very, very common. And I think a dad's role is to speak truth and treat, speak that identity over her. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:11:32]: And minutes later, she says, I want to put the kids to bed and she's never puts our kids to bed. So she runs upstairs, passes me by up the stairs and she runs up to my youngest son who's now 4 years old and she says, Maddox, she says, you are strong, you are brave and you are kind and you are going to college. And for me, she is now living into her identity and living into it and developing confidence because she's able to, to spur that onto other people. And for me, that's the role of a dad. It's the role of a foster parent. And that's a big moment for us. We have group homes and there was 5 kids that didn't have a family and our family was full. And long story short, we just kind of felt called to it. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:12:13]: And it was a 2 year old to a 13 year old. We sold our house 2 years ago, found a place that could fit everybody, reopen our foster license, and took in these 5 kids and adopted them all this summer. So that's been a whirlwind as well. So I feel like I've lived enough for 3 decades for sure in 20 years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]: So you also run a nonprofit that helps to connect kids with families. And not only are you taking these kids into your own family and creating these opportunities for but you're also creating opportunities for other families as well. So talk to me about that and what drove you to create this nonprofit called Ohana that that is providing that, but also connecting these kids with other families. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:13:03]: One of our adopted sons, we always called him Stitch, like from the movie, Lilo and Stitch. She's like this wild terror alien baby thing. And we always called him Stitch to life. He's a lover and a terror. And there's a quote in the movie. It says, Ohana means family and family means no one's left behind or forgotten. And it was so significant for our family. That's why we started our nonprofit called Ohana. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:13:23]: And our belief is that every child deserves a family. Our belief is that a kid's past story doesn't define them. And what we have learned is that if a family is consistent and present, like any child's past hurts can be healed. So, we have kids who are available for adoption that we are trying to find forever families for. So we've adopted kids through that program, but we have about 90 kids that we serve and we have about 10 kids that get adopted every year, which is some of the biggest joy and awesome parts of the journey. And we try to equip parents that parents are like, oh, like when I was a young parent, I was like, I gotta be perfect and do this right. Even more so when you work as a foster parent. Oh, I gotta do this right. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:14:07]: Yeah. Throw that out the window. Show up, be present, love them well, and they'll be alright. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:12]: Well, and that's what I was gonna ask you was when you look at your whole family and how you parent your biological kids, your adoptive kids, I would guess I have 2 biological kids. I do not have adopted kids, but and I have not been a foster parent. But in my perspective, I would guess that you have to parent them the same way and you have to love them the same way. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:14:31]: Absolutely. Yeah. So I, you, and it's interesting that like kids that we have adopted, like they are part of our family, the love that we have, people like, how could you do that? How could you love, like, I don't know your heart just kind of grows. Like, it's like part of the calling of like the adoption and foster care. But yes, you have to, I think you have to adjust your expectations when you're having a foster adopted child. Some of my kids, my son was in 7th grade and he was reading at a 2nd grade level. Okay. I can't have the same expectations for him. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:15:00]: And some parents would be like, Hey, he needs to just focus on school. No sports. But I knew my kid had needed an outlet and he needed to move his body and needed to have something where he could have some wins and success. And for him it was soccer. So I made sure that he played soccer where my other kid says, Hey, if you have missing assignment, dude, you're not going to practice. But this kid needed to make sure that, so there is some, you have to adjust kind of your expectations and sometimes bonding takes more time, but they need love. Like my 25 year old daughter, she just still like, it took her forever to be able to hug and I didn't want to ever force it hug. But now she's like, first thing she does, she comes into my house and wants to give us the biggest hug and for an adopted child, that's a big deal. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:15:41]: Especially for a 14 year old black girl who doesn't know, and I was a 35 year old white guy. It felt off. It didn't feel comfortable for her. And I respected that. But now it's time it's like, no, we're family. Like we're love. Like the love is deeper than any thing that makes us different. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:59]: So if people are interested in being potential foster parents in the future, sometimes people think that this is a process that is really difficult and something that they don't wanna move down or they're scared because of some of the the things that kids may bring with them and what they have to be able to struggle with as a family, as they're bringing them into their family. What do you say to those people and how to get in or to work through some of the challenges that they may encounter in bringing foster kids into your family? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:16:35]: A couple things. 1, you have to, 1, adjust your expectations. 1, it's not about you. It's about the child. So that has to be reorient yourself. I work with a lot of families that wanna complete their family. And that's great. I respect that. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:16:46]: It can, that can be part of it. But also the primary thing is, like, I see this child and I want to make sure that they have hope and healing. That's gotta be foundation. But then there's also, like, just some people have been through it before. So I always reached out to people who have been in this before. Like, when we were struggling with our son and having behaviors, my god, what the what the crap do I do here? I asked people that knew. So there's, like, general words of wisdom is like, a, take younger than your kids that you have in your home. Take younger. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:17:15]: Because why? Because they will help guide the culture of what to expect for them. I wouldn't get a kid that's older than your biological children. And making sure that you know their history and are prepared for that is an important aspect as well. And then having other people in your corner. So for me, it's like, I always gotta have family. I gotta have family, friends. We have a family of friends that will take their kid for a night and just give us a moment to reset. Because you're like, oh, this is a lot, occasionally. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:17:43]: And having family to kinda help. Hey. Can you take the kids for a night so my wife and I so we can just have a chance to reset ourselves. And that was a big, big important thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:52]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:00]: Yep. Gotcha. is fatherhood? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]: In one word, what Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:02]: Intentional. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:03]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:08]: My 14 year old daughter, we went to a dad daughter dance, and she loved being the dad's princess and being with me all the time. And we have the 4 year old little girl and she's like, we need to make sure she comes too. And she taught her how to dance and do all this other stuff. So that was a really big win. And we also just had my wife's 40th birthday and my daughter did a toast to her and talked so many great things. And my son, like, prayed over and blessing over the whole night. So that was super humbling and great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:36]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:40]: I think they would say I'm fun. Love to play sport with the kids. I'm strict. They know that. And I'm a big believer that centers do hard things. So they know we do hard things together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:52]: My father-in-law for sure didn't have a dad, but he is a great picture of a dad for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:57]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice. You've shared your story and talked about what you've gone through as a father yourself, or at least part of what you've gone through as a father yourself. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:19:09]: Kinda go back. Fatherhood is more than just being present. Present is good. Present is is showing up to the game. It's maybe coaching once in a while. Maybe it's making sure you're not on your phone when your kids are talking to you present. That's awesome. But I think the next step of fatherhood is intentionality. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:19:26]: Intentionality is having a picture of what you want your family to be about. A picture of what you want your kids' lives to be about. I want my kids to be more generous. I want them to serve others. I want them to learn to do hard things. So what's the picture? And then intentionality is, like, creating opportunities and moments to do those things and naming those. So for us, it's like we have an intentional like, we wanna we're creating a ranch for kids with special needs. So for us, like, we do hard things. Dr. Ryan Senters [00:19:53]: So we're building our chicken coop, and we're all doing that together. My daughter, she's in a power of tools and making it happen. Why? Because I am teaching us, one, we do hard things and that we serve others. And I'm always pointing towards that So my kids can be reinforced that that is what we do. That's who we are more than just present. It's intentionality. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:12]: If people want to find out more about Ohana or about you, where should they go? Dr. Ryan Senters [00:20:17]: Yeah. So I have a podcast and I'm actually releasing one on fatherhood and parenthood, foster adoption, season this this fall. It's called Unleash Your Purpose, and you can look me up orioncenters.com, and ohanaaz.org is our organization. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:33]: Well, Ryan, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for all that you're doing to be able to help connect kids with their forever families. And I truly wish you all the best. Ryan Senters [00:20:45]: Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:46]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and beat the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

Fatherhood presents unique challenges and opportunities for growth, particularly when raising daughters. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Don Manning or Crazy Cool Family delving deep into the realities of father-daughter relationships, providing valuable insights and practical strategies for dads committed to being the best they can be. Reframing Teenage Years Understanding and Embracing the Journey A common perception is that the teenage years are inevitably challenging. Dr. Christopher Lewis offers a refreshing perspective, suggesting that with the right approach, these years can be full of positive experiences and growth for both fathers and daughters. Central to this approach is the belief in the importance of a strong family belief system and a nurturing environment. By actively working to build relationships, fathers can play a crucial role in creating a supportive and understanding family dynamic. Personal Growth and Faith Dr. Lewis shares his personal journey, where his Christian faith and a wealth of parenting literature have significantly influenced his parenting style. The emphasis on feeling seen and heard in reversing trauma is a key takeaway, underscoring the importance of emotional availability and sensitivity to a child's needs. Creating a Family Culture Building a Network of Relationships The concept of building a family culture akin to a network of relationships is pivotal in maintaining strong family dynamics. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that this approach can create a cohesive unit where each member feels valued and understood. The ripple effect of this approach is evident in Lewis's own family, where their methodologies attracted interest from others, leading to the development of a curriculum, writing a book, and creating a ministry. Resources for Continuous Improvement Over time, their ministry has developed numerous resources, including parenting books, a podcast, interactive workbooks, and a daily email subscription, all aimed at helping dads improve their relationships with their children. These resources stress the importance of fathers becoming better listeners, more encouraging, and building trust with their children. Challenges for Modern Dads Technology and Connection Modern dads face unique challenges, notably the impact of technology on family connections and the lack of training in relationship-building. The podcast highlights the need for fathers to be proactive in carving out quality time with their children, away from screens and distractions. Spending Quality Time Intentional involvement in everyday activities, be it errands or special outings, is key to building strong bonds. Such consistent, quality time helps in understanding and connecting with each child's unique personality. Vulnerability and Self-Improvement Importance of Being Open and Transparent Both speakers agree that vulnerability—being open, transparent, and admitting faults—is crucial in forming stronger connections with daughters. This openness fosters a sense of trust and mutual respect, which is essential for a healthy father-daughter relationship. Focusing on Self-Improvement Dr. Lewis stresses that presenting the best version of oneself is more beneficial for children than focusing on their shortcomings. This perspective encourages dads to embark on a continuous journey of self-improvement, setting a positive example for their children. Parenting with Faith Over Fear Don Manning's Journey Don Manning shares his experience transitioning from parenting with fear to parenting with faith. Initially, fear led him to adopt a controlling style, which proved ineffective. Over time, Manning learned that building relational connections was far more impactful than merely enforcing rules. Encouragement and Trust Manning emphasizes that no single approach to parenting is always correct. The hardest part, he notes, is dealing with fear and learning to trust that his daughters will make the right choices despite the challenges they may face. This approach fosters a more relaxed and nurturing environment. Crazy Cool Family Mission Transforming Fatherhood Dr. Lewis discusses the mission of Crazy Cool Family, an organization aimed at helping parents improve their relationships with their children and become better versions of themselves. The ministry encourages fathers to be actively involved and continuously learn about parenting and relationships. Shared Experience and Reevaluating Beliefs Most men aspire to be good fathers but often lack the knowledge or vision to achieve this goal. Reflecting on their upbringing or external challenges, both speakers recommend reevaluating long-held beliefs about parenting and embracing new insights—such as Dr. Lewis's realization about teenage rebellion. Conclusion Fatherhood is a lifelong journey of learning, growth, and forming deep connections. By embracing vulnerability, prioritizing quality time, and committing to self-improvement, dads can navigate the complexities of raising daughters with confidence and grace. The insights shared by Dr. Christopher Lewis and Don Manning provide a roadmap for fathers striving to build strong, loving relationships with their daughters.   TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created by CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, you and I are on a journey together. I love being able to walk this path with you every week as we are talking about the thing that I know I'm most passionate about and I'm sure you're most passionate about, which is raising our daughters and raising them into being those strong, independent women that we want them to be in their lives. And I know in the path that I've been on, there have been so many dads that I've turned to to try and gain more perspective. Because I didn't know everything, And no dad knows everything. And as you walk into fatherhood, there's not one right manual. There's not one right way to father. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: So it's so important that we as men are willing to step up and ask questions and listen and watch and learn, but be able to also take some tools from other people, put them in our own toolbox and be able to put them to work. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you to find other resources, find other ways of doing things to be able to help you on this journey that you're on. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that allow for you to be able to go on this path with others. Because we all have a journey to be on, and it's so important to be able to learn from others. And today we've got another great guest. Don Manning is with us today. And Don has been on a parenting journey for quite some time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: He's got 7 kids, 4 daughters, 3 sons, And he is a business owner. He's an investor. He has worked in real estate. He does a lot of different things, but he also has something called crazy cool family. And we're gonna be talking about that as well as him being a father himself, and I'm really excited to have him here. Don, thanks so much for being here today. Don Manning [00:02:24]: Yeah. Glad to be here. You said strong, independent women, and that's so I just laugh because that describes my 4 daughters to a t, and my wife too. I mean, I've got very we've got very strong independent women in our household, so it just that's funny when you said that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]: I want to turn the clock back in time on you, and I know that you've got kids that range all the way from 34 on down. And your oldest 4 are your daughters. So I wanna go back to that first moment. That first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head? Don Manning [00:03:00]: Well, first of all, so my wife brought our first daughter to the marriage. So I knew I was going to be a so I've got a blended family, you know, and so my wife then we had 3 girls and 3 sons together after that. So when we got married, my oldest daughter was 2. In some ways, I say I fell in love with her daughter and married the mom, but that's not really true. But I really had no idea. So I'd I was the youngest in my family. I'd never been around kids. And suddenly, I'm married, and I have this 2 year old, and I'm not her dad. Don Manning [00:03:36]: And so quick story, so you're talking about first memory. So Suzanne and I dated my wife, Suzanne, and I, we dated for a year before we got married. So we were you know, I was I was accustomed to Molly, our our oldest daughter. And so but we go on. We get married and and, we go on our honeymoon and we come back and I'm like, okay. Because Suzanne, you know, this was so typical of a dad. You know, I know how to parent better than she does. Right? And I've watched her parents, so I'm like, I can give her some advice. Don Manning [00:04:03]: You know? As we come into the house, new sheriff in town. We're gonna take over. We're gonna help her help my wife become a better parent. Right? That's that's kind of the the mantra I had coming in because I knew everything. And so the first night we get back home, and Molly's daughter would wake up in the middle of the night, and she there was 2 things. She would wake up and she would cry, and she had a a pretty sensitive gag reflex. So I walk up there, and and and when I was with Suzanne, she would tell me about how, you know, she would have to stay up with her all night. And I was like, hey, I'll help you with this because I think I can get her to go to sleep. Don Manning [00:04:39]: You know? Obviously, you know, again, I knew everything. I was so I walk up there. The first night, she's crying. Honey, let me handle this for you. And I walk up the stairs to the second to the bedroom where her crib was, and I said, Molly, you know, I don't have my shirt on because, you know, I'm 27 years old. I was in shape at that time. And, you know, so I walk up there and I'm just and I'm holding Molly out, and I just said, Molly, we you know, just gently I'm not being rude or anything, but just, Molly, we need to go to bed. You know, this is something we're gonna do. Don Manning [00:05:07]: And she looks at me and throws up all over me. And so that was my that was my initiation into marriage, into parenting the 1st night. And I'm like, I mean not I mean I don't have my shirt on so it's thrown up all over me. I'm going, oh my goodness this what is this life going to be? What is parenting? I was just so defeated at that point and so it got better after that. But that was my initiation into parenting right there. It's a little bit different than the hospital, but, that's where I was. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:40]: That's quite the induction into being a father. And, you know, one of the things that a lot of dads tell me, especially dads of daughters, tells me that there's some fear, some fear in not only becoming a father, but fear in being a father to a daughter. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising your daughters? Don Manning [00:06:01]: Yeah. I totally agree, and it's been something that has I think getting away from fear, what I call it going from fear to faith, has revolutionized my parenting. I mean, you know, I tell dads a lot, you know, I speak to dads a lot in our ministry. Crazy Cool Family, what you're referring to is is our ministry we do now, and we'll talk about that later. But a lot of times when I talk to dads, I say, you know, realize at one time it was it was me and 5 women in my house. And one, there was a fear that I didn't understand these beings that and so what fear and really my fear was is that they wouldn't turn out well. That, you know, that they would be, you know, sexually active maybe or, you know, in negative ways, or they would be rebellious, or they would, you know, get that all the things you think about as a dad, they're gonna be addicted to drugs, they're gonna be, you know, not able to do relationships, and just all the things that that come out of it. And so and I'm a teacher at heart, so what I really focused on is helping them to obey and make sure they did what I said. Don Manning [00:07:05]: And I thought that was being a good dad, you know, that I could if I if I protected them and my fears led me to wanna protect and to teach and to tell them what to do. And when they didn't do it, I told them again, and I told them again, and I told them again. And, you know, so the the fear was really that they weren't gonna turn out well, and the way I responded to that was I just got onto them all the time. And that really didn't connect relationally, and I and over time, I just wasn't working, and I found they they avoided me. Some you know, they started they were a good relationship. I mean, I was involved in their lives, but it was still challenging as I my fear led me to do things that were not helpful in parenting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:44]: And as you're talking about parenting, I know you have 7 kids, and parenting is never easy. There's always those ups and downs as you're raising your kids. They're always going to throw you through a loop. There's not one right way to parent, but there's gonna be times where things are gonna be good and things that times that are where things might be more challenging. What's been the hardest part in being a dad to a daughter? Don Manning [00:08:04]: I think one of the biggest challenges I've found is understanding the female and as a male understanding the female, and I've really done a lot of work with that to try to understand my daughters to to to really get to the bottom of their hearts. So they because I believe that belief and determines behavior, that how we believe and what we do determines who we are. And so rather than so often I felt like I was dealing with the surface, and the deeper I went with the relationship and the connection, the better my parenting got. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:37]: Now when you have so many kids you have 7 kids, so that's a lot of kids, you know, and a lot of things going on in that household. And with 4 daughters, one of the things that I guess that I would question for you is as a father, I know with 2 my 2 daughters, they're very different people. They have different personalities, and they bring different dynamics not only to the home, but also just to the ethos of the environment. And I have to be very intentional about understanding who they are, what they need, and who they are as individuals to be able to build those unique relationships. How did you build those unique relationships with your daughters? Don Manning [00:09:17]: No substitute for time. For example, I I tell dads a lot that when I was a young dad with young children, young daughters, one of the things I did was I just took them with me whenever I went somewhere. So if I went to Home Depot, I was gonna have a 3 year old girl with me, and I would take them out on certain dates. Like, we would just go and, you know, for example, we and it didn't have to always be just one child. You know, with 7, sometimes you have to do different things, but I would meet my buddy at Chick Fil A, and we would he had a couple kids. I had a couple kids with me, and and we would let them play, and and we would talk, and then but they would interact. And a lot of times we talk about it, Crazy Cool Family, it's along the way. There's a scripture that talks about in Deuteronomy where you do it when you lie down, when you rise up, when you're walking along the road. Don Manning [00:10:04]: It's like so often I think relationship is developed along the way. And if you just include your kids in your lives and you're included in their lives, there's a lot of you know, it may be in the car. It may be when they're going to bed at night. For example, I made sure that I my wife was at home with these kids, so she was exhausted by the end of the day. Bedtime was a big time for me, and I took jobs that didn't travel so I could be home at night. Decisions made like that helped me to make connections, deciding to include them in my life. And then the other thing I would say about that relationship is learning to be someone that asks questions. So often as dads we are in the lecture business. Don Manning [00:10:48]: We are, you know, we're efficient and we tell them what to do and we make sure that everything is taken care of. But in reality, the, the need is with especially with females again is to ask questions and to not tell them what to do but find out what's in their heart And that allows us to connect with them better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:08]: In raising daughters, one of the things when you say about connecting to their heart, I think about the fact that I know that I've had to step back and really look at my own self to be able to better understand my daughters and know that they are going to be expecting of me things that I would not always expect of other men, of other people. And it's been a journey. And it's been something that I know that is not always an easy journey, but I've had to step back. I've had to be willing to explain when I'm wrong, explain and talk to them about and be a bit more vulnerable with them than so I think we're always programmed to be. Talk to me about vulnerability for yourself and how you've had to be vulnerable to be able to make those connections with your own daughters. Don Manning [00:11:59]: Yeah. The first thing I I love what you just said is that is you're talking about yourself first and how you change to be a better parent and a better person. One of the things we tell people a lot is the best thing that I can do for my family is to present my family the best version of me. That so often as dads, we wanna say, I need to improve my kid. My kid needs to improve. They need to do this better, and so often the real focus needs to be on us because, and, it's not just the connection, but our example to our children is more important than our instruction. Who we are with them, they see through the instruction to the person. They're gonna follow a whole lot more of who we are versus what we tell them. Don Manning [00:12:47]: And so I think that's a great what you just said is awesome that what can we do to be the best version of ourselves? And when we are vulnerable, when we are transparent is another way I like to put that is I find that my daughters would respond so much better to me. And again, just the the asking questions, the telling them, you know, realizing so often I think we need to we we need to show our daughters that we are perfect. And in reality, that's not the best way to parent in my opinion. It's you know, you're talking about there's not one method and that's so true, but there are concepts that do work well and one of those is to be transparent, is to be vulnerable, and to share with them things about your life that's going on as well as listen to things about them without being so judgmental. What does judgment come from? Judgment comes from fear. You know, our daughter tells us something and we are scared that they're gonna go down a path and so we want to stop them. We do it with the best intentions. The same way we don't tell them things about ourselves because we don't think they'll respect us or we don't think they'll like us. Don Manning [00:13:51]: We have things hidden in our hearts that we think are bad that we don't want anybody to see. But when we keep those in, they see them anyway. And so so often and so then we become kind of hypocritical to them and we lose respect. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:04]: So let's transition a little bit because you've been talking a little bit about your crazy cool family and the mission, the organization that you started to be able to help parents, help fathers, help mothers to be who they want to be. But talk to me about the the genesis of this and where you started this and where you are today. Don Manning [00:14:24]: Well, when I was 4 daughters, like I said, 5 women in my house. I wanna be a good father, you know, and honestly, I talk to men all over the country now with our ministry. I find that most men want to be good to great fathers. They really do. I think I rarely talk to a dad. He's like, you know, I don't really care about being a father. It's not real high on my priority list. I mean, do you see the same thing? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:49]: I do. People want to be the best dads, but they don't always know how to. Don Manning [00:14:53]: Yeah. And maybe life is a little bit overwhelming or there's challenges in our life. Everything from work to even addictions to we didn't come from those type of homes. I also find that a lot of dads don't really have a vision for what family can be, and I didn't really either at that time. I'll give you an example. I was at a conference just a couple of weeks ago, and they're talking about well, even going back to a few many years ago, somebody said teenage rebellion does not have to happen. And my wife and I looked at each other, and we were like, wow. That really challenges our belief system because we have been brought up thinking that, oh, wow. Don Manning [00:15:32]: The teenage years are just gonna be so hard and it's, you know, it's always gonna be just almost a disaster and we never know what they're gonna do and, you know, just all the things. And at this conference I was at a couple weeks ago, there was a lot of people talking about that. Well, I wanted to tell them I didn't get a chance. I wasn't my I was just participating in it, but I wanted to tell them, guys, hey. It doesn't have to be like that. What if your belief system is that that teenagers are fun and teenagers are gonna be a a delight to your family? Well, so years ago, I'm I'm probably 10 years into this journey and I'm going, you know what? I wanna I wanna be my best, and I wanna you know, in effect, I'm a competitive guy, and I just said, I wanna win at family. I'm gonna put a lot of time, effort, and energy into this. And what does winning at family look like for our family? And so we're a we're a Christian based organization, Christian family, and we said we want our kids to have great faith. Don Manning [00:16:31]: We want us to have we want them to have great relationships with us. We want them to make wise decisions. We want them to follow our faith and be able to choose that. We want them to have the choice but be able to choose that. And and I was like, how do I get there? And so what happened was is that we just started to study a lot of things within the church as well as other authors and people, and it was really interesting to me that it was all over the board that the parenting literature and advice and things were all over the board. But we found that as for our 7 kids, it's kind of going back to what we said before, that when we connected the people who were having success and this was either faith based or not faith based. I'm reading a book right now about the effect of trauma on children and it is amazing and they say that even trauma can be reversed if a child has parents or other parents first or other people that are relationally connected in their lives, if they feel like they are seen and heard. And so we found that true in our family that the connection was so important and that the culture we were building in our family was super important. Don Manning [00:17:41]: We needed almost like building a greenhouse in our home for the relationships. I look at family as a now, as a network of relationships, And so goes that network, so often so goes our family. And so we started to focus on that and then over time, our kids started to really again, the girls and the boys started to really respond to that. And when you, you know, Christopher, when you have 7 kids and they're good kids, people start asking you what you're doing because they and they really were. We had a good relationship with them because we focused on that. They had good relationships with each other for the most part, and they were confident kids that were not and they weren't valedictorians and they weren't the star athletes. It wasn't about that. They just they just radiated a confidence in their lives, and and and our family kinda was was becoming a little bit set apart. Don Manning [00:18:34]: And this was honestly, a lot of it was in our church, and people started asking us, hey. Would you show us what you're doing? And because, you know, just like we did, we we talked to a lot of successful families what we And so that led to us just teaching younger families in our church and developing a curriculum which eventually led to writing a book, and now we have a ministry. And we're a Christian ministry, but we really focus on how to build connections within your home, that family network of relationships, and how to build that culture where we just believe if you build well on the inside, you can handle anything on the outside. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:10]: And I know you have a number of resources that you've created over some time, and one is a podcast, and you've got some workbooks. Talk to me about some of the resources that you've created and what you're trying to accomplish through the different means that you're trying to engage with people? Don Manning [00:19:28]: We started out with our book, Crazy Cool Family. We've written now 7 parenting books that are on Amazon. Everything from our workbooks to certain little what we call microbooks, which are very, like, very issue based. It's just short, little, quick reads. You can go to Amazon and type in Don and Suzanne Manning or Don Manning or whatever. I haven't figured out yet how to make Amazon link it to Crazy Cool Family yet because it's because we're the authors of the books. But so usually, I tell people to go to Amazon and type in Don Don Manning, and you can see all of our resources there. But, basically, we started out with a book, and then at that time, we started out with a podcast. Don Manning [00:20:06]: We were just talking. Both of us have about 250 episodes. We've been doing we've been doing ours about this is this is season 6 of our podcast. So, and we do it about once a week. So there's lots of resources in that podcast. So we've talked about we've got different guests or sometimes Suzanne and I just talk or we've talked with our kids sometimes. Lots of different resources there. And then this year we came out with what I'm really excited about is what we call our 2 guides, which are basically just 2 6 session workbooks. Don Manning [00:20:36]: It's very interactive. They're only hard copy because you get to journal in them and really go through them, and they're available on Amazon and but those two manuals together, there's, like, 12 sessions in both manuals together. They create this comprehensive guide to giving you the key concepts to how to connect everyone in your family and how to build that culture in your home. All the resources kinda have the same theme. They're just different delivery systems for them. And then the last thing I'll tell you is is we also have a daily email that we can you can subscribe to on our website, crazycoolfamily dotcom. It's a couple of minutes a day. It's it's again, it's faith based as our ministry is, but it's a it's a quick clip every day. Don Manning [00:21:17]: You can read it in 2 minutes or less just about to kinda drip our concepts into dads and moms about how to connect with their kids and how to connect everyone in their family and they build unity and culture in their homes. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:31]: Now you've worked with a lot of dads over the years, I'm sure. And with the conversations that you're having, but whether it be in person or through other means, what are some of the biggest struggles that some of the men that you're talking with are dealing with? And how are you helping them to be able to move through those challenges? Don Manning [00:21:51]: I think the biggest challenge that men face today is the technology and the culture that are out there. And it is difficult to connect with our kids when all they wanna do is get on their phone. And I think that and the secondary you know, the corollary to that is is that as dads, we're usually not well trained in how to reach our kids. We're not really well trained in the relationship arena. And when you combine the technology that's separating all of us with that we're not trained with the relationships, then a lot of dads are having trouble with that connection piece with their children and so and also with their wives. And so we do a lot towards helping dads learn to become better listeners, more encouraging, more inspiring. You know, so many dads are, oh, they're on their phone all the time. I can't talk to them, and when I do, I feel like I'm getting on to them all the time. Don Manning [00:22:49]: Well, there's different ways to overcome that. And we focus a lot to help dads learn how to build trust with their kids, build relationship with their kids. And really, so many dads, it's not really that fun being a dad. Well, it can be. It can be a lot of fun with the right attitudes and concepts, and we try to help them do that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:07]: So you've been doing this now for quite some time. And as you look at the future, where is Crazy Cool Family going? Don Manning [00:23:15]: Great question. I what we find is learning to be a parent does not happen in days weeks. It doesn't happen in a weekend seminar. It happens over months years. As parenting is a long term game, it's something and, you know, I I really challenge dads a lot to become learners. I was with a dad just, you know, a few weeks ago, and blended family had come together. They had 6 kids between them, had been married for a few years. And I challenged those dads, you know, at that conference to be learners. Don Manning [00:23:46]: You know, what what are you doing to learn about being a dad and and to to improve your dad's skills? And he goes, you know, he goes, man, I'm in IT, and I'm always learning about technology. He goes, I on the side, I'm a personal trainer, and I'm always learning new things about personal training neck techniques and and nutrition and things like that and and weightlifting and aerobics. He said, I've never thought about learning to be a dad. And I'm like, I'm glad you came because, you know, now he's got a new focus. I said, how do you expect to be a great dad if you never learn? And the way you learn to be a dad is not by reading one book. It is by consistently putting input in over the course of years. And then just like anything else, you know, Steph Curry didn't learn how to shoot the jump shot he has today in in a weekend. He learned it over months years and and continual practice. Don Manning [00:24:37]: And that's what we try. That's where Crazy Cool Family is going with our daily email, with our materials. We want to kinda we want to be a a part of a man's life and a family's life for years as we drip our content into them so that those parents can learn over time to become excellent at the most, and arguably the most important thing we'll ever do in our lives. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:59]: No. It is so important, and I appreciate you sharing that. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Don Manning [00:25:09]: Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like I'm on jeopardy or something. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:13]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Don Manning [00:25:15]: Relationship. It's connection. I think the most important thing we can do in fatherhood is connect. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:21]: Now when was the time that you finally found that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Don Manning [00:25:26]: I don't know that I've found that yet. I I think with every daughter, it was different. There's different times that I won their heart. But I think that when I feel like there's trust in the relationship and there's interaction, there's a bridge that I feel like I've crossed with each daughter and with my wife too, where we trust each other. Dr. Christopher Lewis[00:25:47]: Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Don Manning [00:25:52]: It's interesting. My younger kids would have described me as an intense, teaching, challenging dad. My older kids would describe me as still intense, but more encouraging. And I would say they probably describe me as involved, that I coached all their sports teams. I, loved to connect with them, and I think they would describe it as involved. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:15]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Don Manning [00:26:17]: Jesus. I don't want that to be trite, but I believe that the best example of being a father is God. And when Jesus was baptized so Jesus is 30 years old. He has not started his ministry yet. He has done nothing of importance. He's he's a carpenter, basically. And he gets baptized, and God says something to him when he comes up out of the water. He says, this is my son whom I love. Don Manning [00:26:42]: In him I am well pleased. And I ask dads this a lot, and I ask myself this question. Do my children believe that I believe that about them? You know, this is my I own you. I claim you. Not I own you, but I claim you. I love you and I'm pleased with you. I'm delighted in you. I think you're amazing. Don Manning [00:27:01]: Is that what our kids think? And that's the best model of parenting I've ever seen. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:07]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you learned along the way, things they've learned from other parents and other fathers. As we're finishing up today, what's one piece of advice you want to give to every dad? Don Manning [00:27:18]: Be a learner. I mean, if one of the things is is that I tell dads this a lot that if you could have seen me as a dad at year 5 and you would see my kids today. You would be like, there's no way. There's no way that could happen because I was there was so much I had to learn. And, honestly, I started out I wasn't very good at being a dad. I mean, I tried hard because that was kind of a mantra of my life. I am a hard worker, and I do like to I'm motivated, and I'm I'm not lazy. But, man, I just messed it up a lot, especially with my young girls. Don Manning [00:27:53]: And so I would tell dads to be a learner and to learn about themselves as well as a learner about relationships because the the cool deal about this deal with fatherhood is we can all be amazing. I believe every dad can be amazing. I believe every relationship with every child can be amazing. There's things we need to learn and it's not easy, but it is possible. And I want to tell dads that you can win and it's worth winning. It is so fun to do family when things are going well and it is so difficult when things are not going well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: Well, Don, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for sharing the journey that you've been on, but also the journey that you've been on to help other parents in many different ways. If people wanna get a hold of you or find out more about you, where should they go? Don Manning [00:28:44]: Crazycoolfamily.com is our website. And then just if they wanna email me directly, it's it's don at crazycoolfamily.com. I hear from dad and parents all over the country with different questions and things, and our resources are all there. I would really challenge them to sign up for our daily email because we not only do a daily email, but we also tell you of things that we're doing to help you go further with your fathering and parenting journey. And so that would be the place to start out with is connect with that daily email. Promise you, it's a quick read, and you'll be encouraged and inspired to be your best. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:18]: Well, Don, thanks again for being here today, and I wish you all the best. Don Manning [00:29:21]: Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:22]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.

The Journey of Being a Dad Fatherhood is a journey filled with joy, challenges, and continuous growth. On the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we sit down with Damien Moore, a dedicated father and founder of Dad's Daily Digest. Through their engaging conversation, Damien shares heartfelt experiences, invaluable insights, and practical advice for fathers striving to raise resilient and compassionate children. Preparing for the Unexpected The Impact of COVID-19 on Fatherhood Damien Moore's journey into fatherhood coincided with an unprecedented global event—the COVID-19 pandemic. His daughter was born just six weeks before the world shut down. As a budding freelance professional, Damien faced the harsh reality of job loss while also navigating the new terrain of fatherhood amidst a pandemic. The absence of his family in the crucial initial months underscored the emotional strain many new parents faced during this period. "There's no parenting tips or books that tell you how to parent during a pandemic," Damien states, highlighting the uncertainty that clouded the early days of his fatherhood journey. Despite these challenges, Damien found solace and support in technology, enabling constant communication with his family through virtual platforms. This adaptability and reliance on a support network became a cornerstone of his approach to parenting during these trying times. Addressing Mental Health: A Family Affair Understanding and Managing Anxiety Both Damien and his wife come from families with a history of mental health challenges, making them acutely aware of the importance of mental well-being. Recognizing early signs of anxiety in their daughter, they took proactive steps to understand and address her needs. From withholding toileting behaviors to being easily startled, these manifestations of anxiety required a sensitive and informed approach. "We adapt as parents based on our kids' personalities," shares Damien, emphasizing the need for a tailored parenting approach that considers individual differences. Damien's candidness about his own mental health struggles and his decision to seek therapy underline the importance of self-awareness and the willingness to seek help. By sharing these experiences, he sets a powerful example for other fathers, encouraging them to prioritize their mental health for the benefit of their families. Building a Supportive Community The Birth of Dad's Daily Digest Inspired by personal experiences and a desire to support other fathers, Damien launched Dad's Daily Digest—a platform aimed at providing advice, sharing stories, and fostering a supportive community among fathers. The alarming rise in suicide rates during the pandemic, particularly among men, motivated Damien to create a space where fathers could find solace, encouragement, and practical tips on navigating the complexities of parenthood. "If I just touch one person and inspire one individual... that's all that matters to me." Through this platform, Damien hopes to tackle the stigma around mental health and provide a lifeline to fathers who might be struggling in silence. His unwavering commitment to making a positive impact, even if it's one person at a time, speaks volumes about his dedication to this cause. Lessons in Empathy and Compassion A Beautiful Gesture In a touching anecdote shared on the podcast, Damien recounts a moment with his daughter that encapsulates the essence of the lessons he strives to impart. While at a McDonald's drive-thru, his daughter's simple yet profound act of kindness towards a homeless individual demonstrated the values of empathy and generosity that Damien and his wife instill in her. "Her gesture was just so beautiful… it nearly brought me to tears." These moments of heartfelt connection not only reinforce the principles Damien values but also highlight the significant impact that nurturing a compassionate environment can have on a child's development. Looking Towards the Future Hopes and Aspirations As Damien continues to build Dad's Daily Digest, his ultimate aspiration is to become a motivational speaker, sharing his journey and insights on a larger scale. By doing so, he hopes to inspire and support more fathers in their quest to raise strong, compassionate daughters while also navigating their own personal challenges. In concluding his conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Damien leaves listeners with a powerful piece of advice: put life into perspective, recognize your blessings, and approach each day with gratitude. These principles not only shape his parenting philosophy but also serve as a guiding light for fathers everywhere striving to be the best they can be. This comprehensive blog post captures the essence of the podcast episode, featuring key anecdotes and insights shared by Damien Moore, ultimately providing valuable guidance and motivation for fathers navigating the beautiful yet challenging journey of parenthood.     TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created using CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dance with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are trying to be the best dad that you wanna be. And as you are trying to raise your daughters into those strong independent women that all of us want for our kids. And I so appreciate that you come back every week to be able to learn, to grow, to be willing to hear the stories of others, and to be able to take those stories and be able to turn them into action. Because it is important. It's important to be able to be willing to listen and to learn and to know that none of us have all the answers. None of us are perfect ads, and nobody has the handbook in regard to what it means and what it takes to be the perfect dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]: There's lots of different ways to father, lots of different ways to be a dad. And you can learn along the way if you're open to it and you're willing to listen and learn from others. That's why this podcast exists. Every week, I bring you different people, different dads, different individuals with resources that can help you to be that dad that you wanna be. And today, we got another great guest with us. Damian Moore is with us. And Damien is a father and also is has has a resource out there called Dad's Daily Digest. So we're gonna be talking about both of those aspects, getting to know him a little bit more, and I'm really excited to have him here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: Damien, thanks so much for being here today. Damien Moore [00:01:54]: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today. And I always start these episodes with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I'd love to go back. I know your daughter is 4 and a half, and I would love to go back and might be 4 and a half years, could be 5a half years. But I wanna go back to the very first moment that you found that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head? Damien Moore [00:02:18]: Yeah. So I was actually in the UK at the time. I found out the gender. My wife called me. I was visiting family. I'm originally from the UK and France, and I got the call. And it was just ecstatic. I mean, it's you know, I think as a guy, I I always thought, you know, I'd like to have a little boy. Damien Moore [00:02:35]: But I've always friends of mine who have actually many of my friends had daughters before me. And they, you know, told me just how precious it was and how special it was to have that kind of daddy daughter bond. So, I mean, I was absolutely ecstatic to find out that news. And, yeah, to this day, it's just the greatest feeling, and bond is so true, and I've just loved every minute so far. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:55]: Now I talked to a lot of dads, and and a lot of dads and daughters talk to me about the fact that walking into fatherhood can be scary in general, just being a father, because we don't know always what we're getting into. But being a father of a daughter sometimes brings its own fears. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Damien Moore [00:03:14]: I think, as you say, I obviously t to raise a confident, independent girl, one that kind of can can take on the world in her own way. Take on the world in her own way. I don't wanna, you know, control her too much. I wanna her to understand that the world is is a fluid and flexible place that you can kind of embrace in many different ways. And I think being raised by a a very kind of strong mother, you know, she instilled kind of positivity in me every day and just to kind of really embrace the world ahead of us and challenges and and opportunities. And I think I just wanna give her that opportunity every day that life is a beautiful thing and it's embrace every day with kind of open arms. There will be challenges. There will be tough times, and it's how you best prepare them for those moments in life when they one day leave the nest. Damien Moore [00:03:56]: You know, we have a role as parents to be there for their whole lives until we die, but when they're here at home with us, when we're raising them, we have a responsibility to kind of, you know, keep them safe and make sure that they understand and and teach them in in a in a in a way that's not too I wouldn't say too controlling, but in a way that kind of allows them to understand the world up, you know, outside of the house and be best prepared as possible. Because life can be tough. You know? Life throws all sorts of challenges. And for me particularly, you know, I had my daughter 6 weeks before COVID closed down the world and went through a really personal tough time during that moment because my own family couldn't visit my daughter. Basically, 16 months. They didn't meet her until she was 16 months old, and as a new dad, particularly wanted to celebrate this moment. This was like something you dream of. You celebrate the birth of your first child with your parents, with your your siblings, and it was really tough. Damien Moore [00:04:44]: They they were 1 week away from coming to America, and then the borders closed, and it was kind of a there's no, like, parenting tips or books that tell you how to parent during a pandemic. It's like, that doesn't exist. So, you know, my wife and I kind of went through the motions of, like, wow, this is actually happening. The world's shutting down. We have a 6 week 6 week old daughter. I was actually freelancing at the time and lost my job as well. So it all happened at a very, very stressful moment, like and it was, like, gonna be this most beautiful thing ever, and it was. Like, you know, the first few weeks was, like, incredible. Damien Moore [00:05:14]: You know, we've got dogs at home. It's like the dogs are super happy to have this new baby at home, but then the world shut down, and we had to kind of really adjust and figure life out as new parents during a COVID pandemic. And I think those life learnings for me just reiterate how we can best prepare our kids for the unexpected and for, you know, just to be best prepared for the real world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:34]: Definitely a challenging time, and COVID threw us all through a loop in many different ways. But being able to have a child right at the beginning and not being able to allow for your family and others to be able to interact. How did you have to pivot, especially losing a job, having a new child, just a couple of stressors in that situation during that pandemic? How did you pivot to be able to make the most of what you had, but also be able to move forward with being a father and moving into a new job and and other things as well. Damien Moore [00:06:12]: Yes. I mean, thankfully, even now during COVID and and now, my wife's family is very close to us. So thankfully, we had her support network. So we had her mom, her brothers, and other wider family members around us. So we had that support, which was very needed at the time. Now for me, personally, I I did struggle not having my mom, my dad available right next door. So we're blessed today to have great technology, so FaceTime was critical. You know, we did a lot of FaceTiming, and it's amazing how, you know, from just an early age, how much these children pick up and learn and they recognize faces. Damien Moore [00:06:45]: So the first time my daughter met my mom when she was 16 months old, she wasn't a complete stranger because she she did recognize her through the FaceTime interaction. So we're lucky today to have that type of technology to stay in touch with members of our family despite the distances. I mean, moving to America, I always knew, you know, building a life here and having a family here would always be different than what I was raised with because I was raised with family members very close to me in the UK. But I knew I was kind of giving, you know, distance between me and my family, so I always knew that my parents always have a different relationship with my daughter than my my brother's daughters who live in the UK. And I was okay with that because I know technology is great today to kind of stay in touch. I mean, from a professional standpoint, on the job side, it was a rough few months. I personally am very I'm kind of an extrovert. I love being around people. Damien Moore [00:07:30]: I love socializing. So COVID was tough on that side of my own kind of mental challenges. I I was obviously locked at home a lot, so I decided to actually become a waiter during that time. I done waiting very early on in my in my teens, but I decided to become a waiter to kinda get myself out of the house so I could put my mental being in a better place. So at home, I wasn't so stressed and anxious and cooped up in the house. Being a waiter allowed me to get out of the house, socialize with people, it just gave me a better, like, headspace for myself. So I did that for about 8 months. As well as, obviously, it provided some sort of revenue for the family. Damien Moore [00:08:03]: Not not obviously huge, but it gave me something to kind of keep going. So, I mean, that's how I pivoted during those times. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:09]: You went through some challenging times at the very beginning. You moved into where you are today. Throughout your time in raising your daughter. It's not always going to be positive moments or easy moments. There's definitely challenges along the way. What's been the hardest part in being a father to a daughter? Damien Moore [00:08:27]: So I think it's adapting to their personalities. They're, you know, they're little unique humans, and I got parented one way. My wife got parented another way. So for me, even those cultural differences from America and the UK, vastly different the way we were parented. So I've had to just adapt. And I've actually embraced the way my wife's parenting style, which is very, I would say, kind of open door policy, very family orientated. It's not to say that I wasn't brought up family orientated, but it's it's just a different style here, and I've actually really embraced it the way we've kind of oriented our child. Both on my wife's side and my and my side, we've kind of come from families with that suffer from depression and and anxiety, and we know this is hereditary. Damien Moore [00:09:06]: So we we're kind of aware and very conscious about that with our daughter, what kind of traits will she pick up from that, and she is a very anxious toddler. From a very young age, she would withhold, and withholding is when children obviously don't have much control over anything is when they withhold going to the toilet. So withholding their poo, so it's that can be quite stressful for a toddler, you know. They go 2 or 3 days without going to the toilet. And as a parent, we have to start, you know, pivoting and taking care of this because it can get quite serious if there's not she doesn't relieve herself. So we noticed these traits very early on and we kind of read up about it and it's it's typical anxiety within toddlers. And to this day, there's traits we see today. She's very easily startled, for example. Damien Moore [00:09:44]: So growing up and even like when she was 2, 3 years old, I work in the basement here at home sometimes. And if I just come up through the basement door, she'd easily be startled terrified, absolutely terrified, running, like screaming because a noise startled her. So we've had to really adjust the kind of how we parent her in a way that's kind of, I'd say, really conscious to that to her anxiety, and we make sure that she feels as safe as possible and that we're here. We're here for her. We're here to talk to her. We're here to listen to her. Just to understand those fears and kinda parent her in a way that's, not as I said earlier, not too controlling on her because she needs that control. She's like anxious, so she wants to control situations and she wants to kind of get through them in in her way and and manage it in her way. Damien Moore [00:10:24]: And I think, you know, we have to learn from our kids as well. Even from a very early age, we adapt as parents based on our kids' personalities. And while she has these anxious moments, she's also just an absolutely beautiful soul. I mean, she's just a delight to be around. She's a lot of fun as well. She likes to dance and giggle and all that. So it's just managing those different personality traits very early on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:44]: So talk to me a little bit about mental health and some of the things that you just were talking about. The fact that, you know, you come from a family that has battled mental health issues. Your wife has as well. You're dealing with your own things that you are working through, whether it's things that you have had that you've brought with you through your own upbringing and your familial ties or the own your own issues that you're dealing with, and you're starting to see those things in your own child. Talk to me about what you've had to do thus far as you've worked with your own child to work through some of these? And what are some of the things that you think that you're going to have to do based on what you're seeing now and what you think may happen, seeing that she's only 4a half at this point? Damien Moore [00:11:33]: Both my wife and I, we both have, as I said, family history in in kind of depression and anxiety. And I was raised around that as a as a young child, and, my parents got divorced when I was about 6 years old. And, you know, as a child, you're not really aware of what's happening at that age. But as an adult, I've kind of really started questioning it and talking to my dad who suffers from depression to get his side of the story. I wanna understand from him what he went through at literally my age now. You know, he went through a divorce. He had 3 boys. And I was just I wanted to understand the stresses and pressures that he was under because when I went through COVID, as I said, a new dad lost my job. Damien Moore [00:12:07]: I had my own kind of battles at that time. So he was a great resource for me to talk to. He really kind of helped just explain things to me in certain ways that I was challenging my own self. So he was great to kind of be a a kind of a a person of of resource for me personally during some really difficult times. I think, you know, for our daughter, there are obviously child therapists out there that we, you know, we wanna potentially engage with at some point soon. We've noticed some of these behaviors have died down a little bit, like the the the startling doesn't happen as much now as it used to when she's 2 or 3 years old because some of the things that she just gets used to, her her surroundings and her environment. But we're aware that you know, we constantly talk, my wife and I, about these you know, about the kind of our upbringings and and how this may influence our daughter and and just very conscious and aware of her behaviors. And we're just lucky today, I think. Damien Moore [00:12:54]: You know, mental health is so much more prominent and so much more spoken. There's more visibility around it today than there was when my parents were growing up. When I spoke to my dad, I remember him saying to me, if he was having a down day, people would just say nip it in the bud, get on with your day kind of thing. That was the attitude. But today, people are so much more conscious about it. You know, companies have better kind of mental health, kind of resources available. So we're definitely lucky in that instance that we can have that access to great resources. I myself have actually personally started therapy for the first time in the last couple of months. Damien Moore [00:13:23]: I've never had therapy. I've never kind of felt the need of therapy. My wife's had therapy her entire life. So I've just wanted to kind of explore that for myself as an avenue just to kind of speak to someone else, speak to an independent individual that's not kind of part of, you know, my network of family and friends and not my wife's network of family and friends. And I've always just, you know, from the first session or 2, I've actually found it quite liberating just sharing stuff with someone I don't really know. And as I said, I've never done it before, so I'm kinda learning my own ways through therapy. And, you know, we'll tackle that with our daughter when we feel like we need to. We've got, obviously, her doctor we talk to a lot about. Damien Moore [00:13:56]: We ask her a lot of questions about certain things that, you know, we've noticed, and she gives us great advice already. So, yes, we take it day by day for now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:03]: And it's all you can do. And I know that with all of those experiences, you got motivated. You got motivated to try to start having these conversations with other men, with other fathers, to be able to help individuals through a new venture called Dad's Daily Digest, the blog TikTok that you're trying to engage people to talk to people inspire people in different ways. Talk to me about Dad's Daily Digest Outside of what I just said, what were some of the impetuses for why you wanted to move in this way to be able to engage with other men in this way? Damien Moore [00:14:39]: The real motivation, my uncle committed suicide when I was probably my early twenties. I've had a friend commit suicide as well through alcohol abuse. Again, I was in my mid twenties when that happened. So I've been exposed to suicide, and I know the effects it hap it has on families. And when COVID hit, I started seeing the suicide rates going up. You know, you read about it in the news, you see it, and it disproportionately affects men. And I think last year, I think it was about 50,000 people commit suicides in the US alone last year. I think 80% of those were men. Damien Moore [00:15:10]: Now these statistics are alarming. And, you know, having gone through it with my uncle and knowing, you know, the pain and and it causes families is I wanted to create a platform of of sorts to, I guess, inspire people and also just maybe give tips and advice on life, having been through these experiences myself and knowing what it does to families. So I've started this, as you say, Dad's Daily Digest, where I wanted to share some of my own struggles I've gone through from my professional career to my personal life. And I said to myself, even if I just touch one person and inspire one individual from potential changing their mind on the way they go in life, that's all that matters to me. I'm not here to, like, change the whole world, but it's like I wanna make a little dent in that space. I wanna inspire men and be a resource of some sort of resource and maybe give tips and advice through that platform, and just to show that life is tough. I mean, we go through struggles, but you can persevere and you can really kind of rely on others. And I am very lucky. Damien Moore [00:16:10]: I know I'm very lucky that I've got a great network around me. I've really got a supportive family. I've got a supportive wife, and I've got her family that support me. So I know I'm blessed to have that, and I know some people don't have that necessarily. So if they just reach out through a platform and just wanna get ask a question or have a concern, I wanna be someone there potentially to help them. I just you know, as I said, even just touching one person's life would be would mean a lot to me. I've just started creating this platform just to kinda get content out there and be a bit more of a voice in that space to hopefully inspire other men. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:41]: Now you've just started this platform. You're starting to get words out there. What are you finding thus far in the conversations that you're having with people that you're interacting with? Damien Moore [00:16:49]: It's been actually quite lovely. I've actually came to a few dads who have similar TikTok channels, and I think it's just relatable. We you know, obviously, each family is unique in the way they bring their their children, but there's so much we can relate to, so many similar funny situations, stressful situations that you go through being a parent. So it's nice to know that there's a community of us out there in that space, giving this kind of motivation, inspiration for others. So it's nice to know that you're not alone out there, kind of, trying to do this. There are other people out there. I mean, even yesterday, I posted a video. My daughter did this really touching thing, and I just had to share it in the moment. Damien Moore [00:17:24]: I was taking her through to a Happy Meal at McDonald's, and we got approached by a homeless person at the window. Now I could see he really needed help, and he was actually you know, he didn't come too close to my window. He saw I had a young child, but he slowed a certain distance, and then he said, you know, I don't want money, I just want food. So I said, absolutely. What would you like me to get you? I'm putting the order in. He goes, just a burger and a bottle of water. So I said, absolutely. I'll get you a burger and a bottle of water. Damien Moore [00:17:46]: And my daughter reached over to give him a dollar bill because she likes to pay the person now at McDonald's money, she likes to do the kind of transaction. So she had this dollar bill in her hand, she gave it to him, and then he brought him to tears and then he brought me to tears because I was like, this gesture was just so beautiful, and even that post alone has kind of really reiterated that people just how beautiful these little moments. I mean, these children are so innocent, and it's just you know, I then had a whole conversation with her about homeless people because she wasn't you know, she was like, who is that person, daddy? Like, what what is he doing? And, you know, she wasn't used to this interaction with with a homeless person. So I come out to explain to her that homeless people are unfortunate individuals that don't have a home. We and I said, we're really lucky. We go to a home. We have a warm bed to sleep in. We can shower. Damien Moore [00:18:30]: And she even asked me, she goes, how does he shower? So, you know, she was really inquisitive about this individual. So I had to kind of, you know, explain to her, unfortunately, there are people out there that don't have homes and don't have families, and it's, you know, really tough on them. So and that's why I said to her. I said, your generosity was just so beautiful, Jessa, and it was so beautiful, and I just thanked her for that moment because I just, yeah, it got it nearly nearly brought me to tears. So I think, you know, and just seeing the the reaction to that video alone was just really nice, People kinda really sharing, like, their positivity around kind of that parenting and positivity around the child's behavior, and it's just great to see that there is this community out there for for people that that may need it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: It definitely warms your heart when you can see that and be able to be have that renewed sense of humanity that sometimes gets lost along the way. And sometimes we get lost in our own lives that it takes a child in the pure way that they see the world to be able to make us take a step back and say, Oh, yeah, you're right. I lost that along the way. And I got a good reminder today. Damien Moore [00:19:38]: Exactly. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:39]: So as you look at what you're doing right now, what you're putting out into the world, what you're trying to create, as you think about the future, where do you want this to go? Damien Moore [00:19:48]: For now, if I just touch a few individuals' lives, that would mean the world to me. You know, I think from from a personal standpoint, I'd like to have a stronger voice in that community. And, I mean, I think the ultimate goal one day, I would love to become a a motivational speaker. As I said, I'm an extrovert. I love being around people. I love, you know, trying to share my positivity and energy. I I kind of absorb other people's energy, and I would like to, you know, hopefully one day turn that into me being out there and being a strong voice and just helping people on more of a larger scale than just, you know, kind of a small platform for now. So, yeah, that's essentially where I'd like to go one day. Damien Moore [00:20:22]: Yeah. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]: I love it. It. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Damien Moore [00:20:31]: Sure. Yeah. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:32]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Damien Moore [00:20:34]: Beautiful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:34]: Now I know your daughter's only 4 and a half, but I'm gonna still ask this question. When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Damien Moore [00:20:42]: I mean, even yesterday's moment was very touching. I guess when I see her sheer generosity and empathy and compassionate to other people. I've been a strong believer in actually raising my daughter around animals because of what that actually teaches children from a very young age. It teaches them responsibility, teaches them compassionate, empathy. Fortunately, it also teaches them about about death because we've had a couple of dogs die since she's been born and kind of explains to her what death is. But I think just seeing this beautiful girl through her life learnings and just seeing it kind of come out into the world to other people is a joy to see. So I think I take that as a success every day. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:19]: Now if I was to ask your daughter, how would she describe you as a dad? Damien Moore [00:21:22]: Probably say I'm quite silly. I like to do a lot of silly dancing with her. Ever since she was young, I I personally quite like my EDM music, and I like to get her into my DJs, so she's always kind of danced along to me. But I think also she probably I'm the one that's the slightly firmer one when it comes to consequences in the house. I think, you know, we all experience tantrums. We all experience that kind of naughty behavior. From about 3a half, 4 years old, she's been kinda testing the waters in terms of retaliation and testing, like, how far she can test her parents. So I probably am the firmer one compared to my wife. Damien Moore [00:21:56]: I like to give more consequences if I if I have to. So I don't know if I should use that, but I hopefully I think it should lead with silliness and fun because, personally, I had a good upbringing, but I wasn't necessarily raised by a dad who was silly and very fine and engaging. I was raised by great parents, but I don't recall my childhood memories as being silly and, like, just goofing around a lot. So I've wanted to instill that a lot in my parenting as my own you know, being a dad to my daughter. I just want it to be, like, lots of silliness and embrace that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]: And if you think about this in, let's say, 15 years, what do you want her to say then? Damien Moore [00:22:32]: I hope she says that I've prepared her as best as pop as possible for the world. You know, I want her obviously to look up to me as as an inspiring figure in her life. I want her to feel that I've given her the most I possibly can in life. I've given her safety. I've given her a good upbringing. So, yeah, that they would be the things I'll dream of in terms of her saying to me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Damien Moore [00:22:53]: I have to say my mom. Because just knowing some of the upbringings that my family members have been through, I've always kind of just really pushed myself to be a better person. And I think she's always been there as my person that I go to whenever I reach my lowest moments. I always call her. She's my, you know, she's kind of carried me through many, many struggling moments in life, and she will still ahead in the future. And she's just my go to person for that. And she's definitely been my inspiration in life and inspired me to be a better dad, for sure. Damien Moore [00:23:23]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things for people to think about, things to ponder, for people to consider for their own mental health and being able to do what they have to do. As you think about any father, no matter what their situation, what's one piece of advice that you'd want to give to every dad? Damien Moore [00:23:42]: For me, personally, I've always liked to put things into perspective. I know we have to recognize our individual life and the stresses we deal with and not to ignore them. But at the same time, put things into perspective and just say to yourself, things could be so much worse. There's so much happening out there in the world where there are errands going through a lot harder things than you may be yourself. And I think it's important just to take a moment sometimes and just pause in that moment and say, do you know what? I'm blessed to have what I have right now. Like, I'm so thankful and share that gratitude and love to the people around you. And just know that it it can be so much tougher on other people in life. And I think just recognizing that and trying to instill that into your daily life a little bit, it's something I've always tried to live by just growing up. And I definitely share that kind of as my one kind of piece of advice to people. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:33]: Well, Damian, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today, for sharing what you have gone through thus far, for sharing the resource that you're putting together. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go? Damien Moore [00:24:46]: Yeah. So the the Dads Daily Digest website is is dadsdailydigest.co. And there's, yeah, there's a way you can reach out to me there. And there's also a TikTok channel if you wanna engage through TikTok. And also, I mean, I have a LinkedIn as well. So you can type my name in Damien Moore Evans, and you'll find me on LinkedIn as well. So happy to people if they choose to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:04]: Well, Damien, thank you for being here today, and I wish you all the best. Damien Moore [00:25:07]: Thank you so much, Christopher. I appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:09]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and power daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: We're all in the same boat And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen, get out and be the world to them. You're the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Family First: Embracing the Realities of Fatherhood Fatherhood is a journey filled with joy, challenges, and countless learning moments. In our recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast,we had the pleasure of hosting Brian Piper and his daughter Libby. This engaging conversation shed light on the intricacies of fostering a strong father-daughter bond, emphasizing empathy, support, and mutual growth. The Initial Steps: Embracing the Unknown Brian Piper candidly shared his initial reaction to fatherhood. Like many new fathers, Brian felt a mix of excitement and fear. He was initially terrified but quickly embraced the journey as a valuable learning experience. Understanding the emotional and intellectual differences between men and women was one of his primary concerns when raising his daughter, Libby. Libby also offered her perspective on the various activities her dad encouraged her to try. From cheerleading and soccer to rock climbing and snowboarding, Brian's support helped Libby find her passions and joy in unexpected places. Their shared skydiving experience stands out as a testament to his encouragement and her bravery. Open Ears and Open Hearts: Listening Versus Fixing A significant part of the episode focused on the challenges of raising daughters, especially the balance between listening and solving their problems. Brian highlighted the importance of listening without judgment and providing empathetic support, something often more required by daughters than sons. Libby emphasized that sometimes she needs her dad to listen and provide empathy rather than immediate solutions to her problems. This approach has helped her feel supported and understood. Fathers must remember to ask if their daughters want advice or just a sympathetic ear at that moment, fostering better communication and stronger relationships. Skydiving and Small Steps: Overcoming Anxiety Together Libby's journey with anxiety and how her father has been there for her with unwavering support was another crucial discussion point. Brian has used techniques like walking her through worst-case scenarios to help alleviate her anxiety. This method allows Libby to process her emotions and face her fears more manageable. The skydiving experience shared between them illustrates this dynamic beautifully. Despite her initial anxiety, Libby found joy and excitement in the activity, thanks to her father's encouragement and support. This shared adventure not only helped her overcome a significant fear but also strengthened their bond. Thriving Amidst Technology: Discussing AI and Social Media In today's digital age, navigating AI and social media is an inevitable part of parenting. Brian, with his expertise as a marketer and content expert, highlighted the ethical considerations and the need for open discussions about these technologies with children. Libby, coming from an environmental major background, shared her concerns about AI's potential negative uses, reflecting her thoughtful approach to the impact of technology on society. These conversations around the dinner table, although sometimes challenging, are crucial for preparing children to make informed decisions about technology usage responsibly. Finding Opportunities and Walking the Path Together Libby's approach to seizing opportunities by breaking tasks into manageable steps is a valuable lesson in personal development. This method, akin to how Brian taught skydiving, emphasizes the importance of self-belief and recognizing personal capabilities. Brian's reflections on parenting six children underscore the significance of personalized attention, open communication, and equitable responsibility-sharing with his partner. The value of family dinners as moments of connection and fun further highlights his commitment to family values. Conclusion In wrapping up the episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis reiterated the importance of community and shared learning as vital tools in the journey of fatherhood. The insights from Brian and Libby Piper's experiences remind us to balance listening and fixing, support our daughters as they face their fears and challenges, and engage them in meaningful conversations about technology and personal growth. Fatherhood, as stressed throughout the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, is not about finding a one-size-fits-all approach. It's about being present, empathetic, and open to learning from our children and each other. With resources like the "Fatherhood Insider" and the vibrant "Dads with Daughters" community, fathers can find the support and guidance they need to raise strong, independent daughters. For more insights and to join the conversation, visit fatheringtogether.org, and stay tuned for more empowering episodes on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast.     TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I love being able to talk to you, talk with you, walk with you as we go down this path to be able to raise our daughters and to figure this out along the way, because there is no right way way to father. Every one of us is gonna do things a little bit differently, and that's okay. But what's most important is that we are open to listening, to learning, not only to listen and learn from our kids, but also to listen and learn from other fathers that are have gone before us, are going through it right now because we can learn a lot of things, a lot of tools that we can put into our own toolbox that we can then put into action. So that's why this podcast exists. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: It is here to help you. And every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that help you to be able to grab some of those tools for your toolbox. This week, we've got 2 new great guests that are joining us. Brian Piper and his daughter, Libby are with us today. And we're gonna be talking about their journey together as father and daughter, but also gonna be talking about some of the other experiences that that Brian's had as a father of 6 and more. So Brian, Libby, thanks so much for being here today. Brian Piper [00:01:42]: Thanks so much for having us, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: It is my pleasure. Love being able to be here to talk to both of you today. And I always start off by turning the clock back in time. So I Brian, I wanna go all the way back. I wanna go back to the first moment that you found out you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Brian Piper [00:01:57]: I was terrified, really. I do a lot of things that, you know, get my, adrenaline going and put me out on the edge, but I really had no concept of what it was, you know, gonna be like to be a father and then to be a father of girl. It was very daunting, but, you know, I've always accepted challenges and kind of, you know, jumped head first into them my whole life. So I figured this would be a great learning experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:22]: It definitely is a learning experience. And I know that I talk to a lot of dads that say what you just said in the sense that there's fear. And I think there's fear not only with becoming a father in general, but there's fear also in becoming a father to a daughter because it's an experience that we have not lived in many in for the most part and we can't we can empathize, but we can't always understand. But I guess as you think back and you think to the time that you've had with Libby and your other kids too, but as you think back to raising a daughter and that fear that you talked about, what was your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Brian Piper [00:02:55]: Well, first of all, just making sure to to keep them alive. That was a key. But, just being able to understand them because I grew up with a brother. You know, I had a great relationship with my mother, but that's a very different relationship than you have with a child. And just knowing that women are very different than men emotionally and intellectually. And so I just wanted to make sure that I was gonna be able to connect with her and help her and, you know, help provide her the tools to make her a better person than I am. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]: So let's talk about experiences. You said you wanted to build those experiences. And and having memories, building experiences is definitely important. You talked about being an adrenaline junkie and, you know, you and I have talked about that and the things that you enjoy doing, but I'm gonna turn this over first to Libby. Libby, I guess as you think about experiences that that you've had with your dad, what's been the most memorable experience that you've had thus far with your dad? Libby Piper [00:03:49]: I think since I was young, he's always been, like, very encouraging to try everything, like, despite your interest level in it. So I've, like growing up I tried everything. I was put into like cheerleading, soccer. I have no athletic ability. I'm a theater kid and did not thrive in that situation. But he does a lot of things and sometimes that becomes an issue, but I've tried rock climbing and I love that and I don't know if I would have thought that I would have enjoyed that. Snowboarding, I've tried and there have been a lot of times in trying out these new things that at first I struggled a lot with them or like did not enjoy them at first. The first time he took me snowboarding, I cried and we ended up walking down the whole hill. Libby Piper [00:04:44]: But now I love snowboarding and I go out on my own. I'm in the ski club at school. I skydive which is kind of shocking because I've always been pretty filled with fear. But he really just encourages me to try things that I wouldn't think I would enjoy. And now this year at school, I'm trying all these different clubs that I don't know if I'm gonna like them, but we'll see. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]: And Brian, what was your most memorable experience? Brian Piper [00:05:09]: Yeah. I mean, just doing experiencing all the activities and just watching the lights come on, you know, when when she finds something that she connects with or that she enjoys, you know, getting her involved in in theater and seeing her up on stage just glowing and, you know, just loving the audience and the reaction and the interaction. We've been skydiving together numerous times over the last year and a half, and, it's just so great to see her in in free fall just with a huge smile on her face and just having so much fun and just so excited. So that's the most encouraging part for me is just watching the lights come on and and things start to click, and she's like, I can do this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:49]: Now raising kids is not always easy, Brian. And there can be high points. There can be low points, and everything in between. And as you think back to raising your daughter, what was the hardest part in being a father to a daughter? Brian Piper [00:06:03]: I think, you know, and this applies to, being married as well. It's listening without judging and also without trying to help. And I know you've talked about this on previous episodes as well. We wanna fix things. We wanna solve problems. And a lot of times, they just want someone to empathize and to listen and to know that they're going through challenging things. And when I start throwing out ideas, well, you could do this or you could do this. It's like, no. Brian Piper [00:06:27]: I don't wanna do that. I just want you to know that I'm I'm experiencing anxiety or fear or pain, and, you know, I just want you to empathize with me. So that's a big difference between, you know, boys and girls. You mentioned we have 6 kids between my wife and I. There's 5 boys, 1 girl. So it's very different providing that parenting and that emotional support for girls is much more challenging, but also much more rewarding. Because you give the answer to the boys, and they're like, oh, okay. You know? And they go do it. Brian Piper [00:06:56]: And you give it to to Libby, and and she thinks about it and processes it and comes back with her thoughts on it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:02]: I don't know if I agree with you. Maybe that's a nice way of saying it. Brian Piper [00:07:05]: Yeah. A lot of that. Libby Piper [00:07:06]: Yeah. No. It happened just the other day. I think I can't remember. I was complaining about something. I don't remember what I was complaining about. But I vase I went to him and I I think my legs hurt or something. This was like 2 days ago, but I was like I don't feel good. Libby Piper [00:07:21]: My legs hurt. And he's like well did you take something? I'm like no. Just just just tell me you're sorry. And he's like, I'm sorry you guys are. I'm like, thank you. That's all I wanted. He's like, I know. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:32]: So Libby, give us some advice here because I think a lot of dads go right to the fixing, and that being able to be on the other opposite end when you're raising daughters and being able to hear and listen and not always fix is not always the go to modality that we go to. So as someone that has grown up with a father that likes to fix, what are some things that you might say to other dads that also do the same thing when it comes to connecting with their daughters? Libby Piper [00:08:07]: I think it really depends on the situation and what you're trying to fix because sometimes I'll have a problem and I'm, like, completely shut down to it, and I don't think there's a solution, and I'm just, like, upset about it. And he'll come in and be like, well, you can do this. And I am not in the mood to change things. I am not in the mood to fix things. I can't process that right now. I don't wanna deal with that right now. Just don't fix things right now. But I think if I'm explaining a situation and he has ideas to fix things, I think just before shouting them out and before just being like, oh, here's the solution. Libby Piper [00:08:42]: Here's why I have the answer to your problem. I think that's a big thing about it. It's like, oh, I have the answer to your no. Do you do you know the problem in its entirety or do you you're just wanting to help. You just wanna make it better and I know that. But I think before you give me the solution that you have, maybe ask me if I'm open to hearing solutions or like if I'm ready to hear a solution. Because a lot of times I'll say 8 times that time. The solution he gives me is very helpful, but I'm just not always open to hearing it in that moment. Libby Piper [00:09:14]: So I think that the solution is helpful, but I'm just not always ready to hear it at that moment. So sometimes I need a second of empathy just before I hear the solution. Brian Piper [00:09:25]: And you've given that advice on your show before, Chris, is to ask sometimes. I do this with my I find myself doing this with my wife now more too. It's like, do you want a solution? Do you want some, you know, ideas about ways to solve this or not? So that's been very helpful from the podcast for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:39]: Well, I appreciate that. And and I can't take credit for that because a previous guest did bring that up to me, an author from out on the West Coast and she said in her practice of being a psychologist and working with dads, that's one of the pieces of advice that she gave is to talk to your daughters from the very beginning and saying, is this a listening conversation or a fixing conversation? And I wish I had started that at a very young age with my daughters. Because if I went and said that to my daughters now, they'd probably look at me like I was an alien and been like, what have you been reading? Because that's just weird. Now doesn't mean that it still can't work, like you said, Brian, in trying to incorporate some new language into the processes that you have with your own wife, but you may still get some strange looks along the way. And that's okay. That's okay. It's a process of, of learning and getting better. So that's what this is. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:33]: That's what it's all about. Now, I know you both just talked about the fact that some of the memories that you've had, you've been able to do some things that may have pushed you, Libby, but also things that you enjoy doing Brian. So let's talk about the skydiving because I know Libby, you said skydiving was not something you ever thought that you would do, but that you ended up doing it with your dad. So talk to me about that experience. What led you up to wanting to do that when you said that you were fearful and that you were willing to go and do it and what was the experience like? Libby Piper [00:11:04]: I really grew up around skydiving. So I grew up with a pretty good, like, understanding of the safety of it. Whereas other people look at it and they're like, oh my god. What are you doing? You're gonna die. And I grew up watching him skydive and obviously he's a pretty big role model so obviously I was gonna try it. There's there's kind of this like expectation, I think, with all of us all of us kids that we will try skydiving. Some of us have so far and some of us haven't. But I knew I was gonna try it at least. Libby Piper [00:11:35]: But I have dealt with anxiety a lot before and just like that spiral thinking. And I remember being in the car with him on the way to AFF, which was like my skydiving training. And I was gonna do my first jump all by myself and I was so scared because I was like, who is letting me do this? What how am I just like allowed to go and jump out of a plane on my own, just responsible for myself? How is that possible? I do not have the capability to do this. This is not something I can do. And we, like, slowed things down and we would, like, talk through all my emergency stuff and, he's been doing this forever. Mostly. And it was kind of just like that first push. And I feel like that's typically how I work for the most part. Libby Piper [00:12:31]: It's like that anxiety leading up to the thing is always so much worse than actually doing it because I do it now and I love it. And always in the plane, I'm always anxious and I will turn to my dad and I will walk him through my entire jump step by step before we go and get out of the plane because I'm still anxious about it. Like I still realize that it's not a completely safe activity but I feel a lot more safe definitely because I can do it with him. And I think it's an even more important hobby to me because I can do it with him. I think that's one of my favorite things about it is that it's something that is really special for both of us and I love that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:11]: So one of the questions that I would ask because you were just were talking about dealing with anxiety, and I think that a lot of kids today deal with mental health issues in their own ways, whether it's anxiety, whether it's depression. There's there's a lot of things that they that compound upon themselves, and parents sometimes are at a loss to how best to support their children as they're struggling through things like that. And I don't know if you're willing to talk about it, but I would love to get your perspective on for someone that has dealt with anxiety and mental health issues in that way, how has your dad supported you through that? What has he done well? And what should other fathers do to be able to support their kids if they are struggling with similar such issues? Libby Piper [00:13:59]: I think, like, we were talking about earlier is just one of the big thing is, like, listening and just like being quiet for a second and like sitting with those thoughts. And then he typically helps me realize that most of those thoughts I'm like creating for myself. Like I'm creating that anxiety for myself. So we'll go through in a lot of situations, not skydiving because that's a little bit of a worst case scenario there. But I've done public speaking and I'll get really anxious beforehand and he'll talk me through. He's like, okay, what is the worst possible outcome? Like, okay, it's this. He's like, is that really that bad? No. Okay. Libby Piper [00:14:36]: So what's the best possible outcome? This. That's pretty great and so it's kind of finding that middle ground. What do you think is the worst thing? Do you think that is actually going to happen? Most of the time it's not. Most of the time that's a pretty small chance and it's kinda just like working backwards from your anxiety and then getting yourself back to that clear headspace which is is sometimes a really hard thing to do. But I think the longer you sit with it and the longer you talk about it and the more, like, interested in listening you are, the easier that is to kind of rewind yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:12]: So it sounds like your dad's been able to provide you with a lot of tools, a lot of things to be able to not only process things, but also to set yourself up for the path that you're on now. What are some of the things that that Brian did to be able to help you to not only get on that path, but to become the woman that you're becoming today? Libby Piper [00:15:33]: I think one of the biggest things, again, like I said earlier, is to try everything. To just, like, put yourself out there so you can find opportunities for other things. He's big about finding opportunities and opportunity seeking. And I think now for me, that's a big part of who I am. I will go out and look for certain things and find situations that are gonna be the best for me, find the people who are gonna be the best for me. So I think I'm pretty good at looking for those opportunities and recognizing them. I think the anxiety and dealing with the anxiety is a big thing. It was hard for me at school, and the transition from high school to college last year was really difficult for me. Libby Piper [00:16:19]: So he gave me the advice, him and my stepmom, to just take things one step at a time instead of like looking at the day as like, just one day. It's just like, okay, we're gonna get out of bed now. We're gonna step out of the bed, and then we're gonna get dressed, and then we're gonna walk out of my door, do this, do this, like very very breaking it, like breaking it down so much that it's no longer this big scary unknown and it's, oh, I've walked downstairs before. Okay. I can do that. Let's walk down the stairs. And doing that to, like, get yourself out of bed and to find those opportunities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:55]: And, Brian, reflect on what Libby just said there. What does that mean to you in what you're hearing? Brian Piper [00:17:00]: Yeah. It's, you know, it's the same thing we do when we're teaching someone to skydive is you have to break it down into just the individual steps so they're not looking at the whole like, they don't keep in the front of their mind that they're gonna be leaving the plane and, you know, just now you're just taking one more step and one more step, and then you're, you know and I think along that whole process, just encouraging them to believe in themselves and to understand, like, that they have more capability than they think they do, and their self doubt is preventing them from seeing how capable and how strong and how innovative and intelligent they are. But once they start doing that and they start learning, I mean, kids are just sponges. They just soak up knowledge so quickly. And once they get a hold of something, you know, then they just grow so quickly. So I think that's important to to keep the focus really small on individual things that are easy to accomplish. And then that way, it leads towards accomplishing those bigger goals and finding those opportunities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:02]: Now, Brian, you mentioned that you've got 6 kids between you and your wife with 5 boys, 1 girl. There's a lot of stuff happening in that household. And so I guess reflect on being a father of 6, and I know you're a busy guy as well. So talk to me about balance and how have you been able to balance being a professional, a father, and everything else that you want to be in your life and being able to show up and being able to be present still in the lives of your kids? Brian Piper [00:18:35]: Well and I think so much of that is really comes down to who who you've chosen to be your partner Because I know my wife is a huge advocate for transparency and honesty. And, you know, whenever things start getting out of balance or, you know, if I'm traveling too much for work or if I'm doing too many activities on the weekends and not doing enough family stuff, we have a very open communication network between all of us in the family where we can just say to each other, you know, we really need you here for this, or, you know, you're doing a little more of this than you should be. And I think just having that communication, because I get in my head, oh, I can do everything. And I have passed that on to my children who I can do all of it. I can do all the things and be very active. And and sometimes someone just has to be able to say, you may be overextending yourself. You may be taking on too much. Think about what you can bring into balance by saying no to some things. Brian Piper [00:19:33]: I think having that open communication and being able to talk about things. So when people feel like they're being they're not getting as much time as they would like, you can talk about that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:43]: And talk to me also about with 6 kids. You've had 6 different personalities, 6 different individuals with 6 different needs. And I'm not even talking about your wife because that's number 7, but let's talk about your kids. And how did you, as they have been growing up, build those unique relationships with each one of them that you have to do as you are parenting. Brian Piper [00:20:08]: Yeah. And I think a lot of that comes down to making a point of spending time with each of them individually and having that one on one connection, whether it's, you know, I mean, teaching them how to drive 1 on 1, you're in the car with them for hours at a time. By finding opportunities to talk to them just about their life in general and ask them questions. And not just, like, trying to get into what they're doing every minute of the day questions, but really asking them, well, you know, how did that make you feel, And and why did you like that? And, you know, things that get deeper into kind of their emotions and their thoughts versus just, you know, what they've been up to in their activities. But, yeah, it's definitely a challenge when you, you know, switch from, you know, 1 on 1 to zone defense. You know? There's only so much that you can do. We really make a point of trying to have family dinners where we all sit down and we all share. And, you know, those are some of my favorite times. Brian Piper [00:21:08]: We're just just laughing and having fun and being goofy and silly with each other. I think that's critical as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:14]: Now professionally, I know, Brian, you've been working as a marketer, as a content expert, as someone that really knows artificial intelligence working within higher education, at this point. And and I know you've got a brand new podcast that's talking about AI in higher education as well. And I wanna talk a little bit about social media, AI, and parenting as well because as a con as someone that has been working in this area, I'm sure you have some thoughts about there's a lot of concerns right now about social media, social media use, incorporating that, or having kids being able to be having that as a part of their lives, but then also with AI now and incorporating that into school and good case usage, and when can they use it, when can't they use it. And it was a lot to unpack there. But as you think about the work that you're doing to aid higher education and in people with these type of struggles that they're having in their own organizations. As you think about as a parent and as we're struggling with these, what do you say what would you say to other parents as we're looking at social media or AI and talking to our kids about these things and helping them to maneuver in this ever changing space? Brian Piper [00:22:29]: Well, I think I think you actually just said it, Chris, is is talking to your kids about these things. Because, you know, among our six different kids, we have wide ranges of social media usage. We have wide ranges of thoughts about AI. As you know, I'm a big proponent of AI, but my conversations with Libby make me think very, carefully about the ethical uses of AI. I mean, there's some great ways that it can help us to be more human and more authentic and not just replace, you know, tasks that we're doing or get rid of jobs that we have that actually lead to more complicated jobs. If we have AI doing everything that entry level lawyers do, how are we gonna get more experienced lawyers who are gonna be able to do the more complicated things that AI can't do? And that's the same in in higher ed and in research and every job field. So it's really about trying to understand their opinions and their thoughts and not just dismiss those, but really think about, yeah, you got a good point there, and we shouldn't be doing this with these tools. And, you know, these tools do cause a lot of anxiety and stress and social issues. Brian Piper [00:23:40]: So let's look at how we can use this technology in a a practical way, but also in a ethical, moral way that's gonna elevate humanity and not just make us lazy people with it sit around and let the robots do all the work. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:54]: And, Libby, as you hear your dad talk about that, what is your reaction, and what would you say to parents? Libby Piper [00:24:01]: I think he kinda hit the nail on the head. I think all of my siblings and I have very different opinions on these things. And like he said, some of us use social media more, some of us use it less. Some of us are really interested in how AI works and some of us just find it like very scary and I find it more scary. I feel like there's a lot of negative uses. So I think that most of our conversation around AI is I'm afraid of this because of x y z, and this is why it scares me, and this is why it's not all like, oh, this is cool that these people have, like, a high functioning robot in their house. Like, this is a little scary. This is a little, like, apocalyptic almost and it freaks me out. Especially like being like an environmental major see a lot of scenarios that end badly and so that's hard for me to come to terms with or a lot of our conversation around the dinner table will be about AI and so it's sometimes like hard for me to Libby Piper [00:24:56]: listen to around the dinner table will be about AI. And so it's sometimes like hard for me to listen to that and be like, oh yeah, this is great. Oh yeah, let's keep talking about this because I'll be sitting over there. Oh, this is a little scary. But I think we do a pretty good job of talking about this and we were just in the car the other day and I was telling him like, oh, I don't think this is ethical. Actually taking it in and I can see him actually taking it in which makes me feel more validated and makes me feel like I'm not just like being crazy about it, which is very helpful to me. So I think he's pretty good about listening to how we all feel about it. And to my brothers who are like, oh, wait, tell me more about this. Libby Piper [00:25:34]: Like, tell me how I can use this. And he's pretty good about seeing our individual point of views. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]: Well, there's so many ways in which AI touches our lives that some people don't even realize. So I've been having conversations at my own workplace about the use of AI in applying to college. And the questions that arise are you've get you've got some people that say you can't use it at all in the application. But then I say, well, what about Grammarly? Is someone able to grammar check what they've written and use Grammarly for that? What about spell check? That's an AI. You know, there's different pieces like that that makes it very gray and the ethical concerns are out there. And I think that it is important to have these conversations with our kids to be able to help them to think about things and make their own decisions about it in the end. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I typically ask questions of dads, but because I've got both of you here, both of you are gonna get some questions. So first and foremost, Libby, in one word, what is fatherhood? Libby Piper [00:26:41]: I'd say encouragement.  Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:42]: And Brian? Rewarding. Now, Libby, when was a time that you would say that Brian succeeded at being a father to you? Libby Piper [00:26:51]: I think my mind just goes back to skydiving really and being able to share those experiences together. And I think when I was telling him about my anxiety, he told me that he feels anxiety about it too. Like, it's not just me. He still feels it at how many years have you been skydiving? Brian Piper [00:27:12]: 34 years. Libby Piper [00:27:13]: 34 years of skydiving. He still feels that anxiety, and it's a completely valid feeling. He never invalidates my feelings. He always tells me, like, it's understandable that you feel this way, but you don't need to. And so I think that for all the time that I'm fearful, he's a very good father and helps me get out of that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:31]: And, Brian, when was the time that you feel that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Brian Piper [00:27:36]: Anytime I watch my kids face challenges and then make good decisions or overcome things, and particularly with Libby last summer, 2 summers ago, when she was studying in Spain, she was so far away. It's her first, like, time kind of really on her own. And, you know, we were calling each other, and she was calling me, and she was super sad, and she was homesick, and she was feeling a lot of anxiety. But we were just able to talk through it. I listened a lot. I did give her some tried to give her some helpful resources that she could use. And I knew that if she just hung on and just waited it out and just let herself kind of adapt to the situation, that she was fully capable of turning the situation around, which she did. And she ended up having a fantastic time and loved it so much that she wants to go back. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:25]: Now, Libby, if I was to talk to you and your brothers, how would you describe your dad? Libby Piper [00:28:31]: I'd say motivated or encourages us to, like, motivate ourselves, and I think we could all agree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:38]: Now, Brian, who inspires you to be a better dad? Brian Piper [00:28:41]: My mom and my wife, for sure, and then my father as well, and and mostly my kids. It's means everything to me to watch them doing well and to watch them have fun, and it's great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:52]: Now we've talked about a lot of different things, things within your own relationship, things that you both learned in the relate in the in the fatherhood journey that, Ryan, that you're on, and and I'm gonna say that through the childhood that you've had, Libby, into adulthood now. Libby, if there was one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad, what would that be? Libby Piper [00:29:11]: Find ways to individually connect with your daughter and to really seek out one on one time and to just genuinely spend as much time as you can together because that time creates memories and just creates a general oneness for each other. And I tell everyone, my dad is, like, my best friend, and I just really enjoy spending time with him and doing things with him. So I think that makes our relationship a lot better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:39]: And Brian? Brian Piper [00:29:39]: Yeah. I'd say just enjoy every minute of it and laugh and have fun, and it's gonna change so fast. And, you know, they're gonna be off on their own before you know it. But also set goals and give yourself priorities so that you're you know, while you're having fun, you're still always taking those small steps towards a bigger goal that you've set for yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:00]: Well, I appreciate both of you being here today. Brian, Libby, thank you for your time, for sharing your journey. I know it is not over. It it continues on a day to day basis. If people wanna find out more about you, Brian, where should they go? Brian Piper [00:30:15]: Go to brianwpiper.com, or you can find me on most social channels at Brian w Piper. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:20]: Well, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here, and I wish you both the best. Brian Piper [00:30:24]: Thanks so much for having us, Chris. This was great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:26]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:24]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.

In a heartwarming episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we speak with Brent Dowlen, a dedicated father and the voice behind The Fallible Man podcast. Brent shares his heartfelt journey of fatherhood, underscoring the value of prioritizing family, embracing transparency, and finding personal purpose. The Blessing of Fatherhood Discovering Love with Daughters Brent Dowlen recounts the heart-stopping moment of holding his first daughter for the first time. He admits that he, like many fathers, was overwhelmed with joy and a touch of terror. "It's real now. This little life is dependent on me," he shares, capturing the duality of excitement and responsibility that comes with fatherhood. He never knew the gender of his children until birth, emphasizing that his main hope was simply for a healthy child. Fears and Aspirations Despite his extensive background in youth ministry, Brent was not immune to the fears that accompany fatherhood. His primary concern was setting an exemplary standard, knowing that his daughters would one day seek partners who reflect his character. This realization spurred a significant personal transformation. Brent openly discusses the fears of not living up to the high bar he set and the journey he has undergone to become the best version of himself. Embracing Transparency Owning Mistakes and Building Trust Brent emphasizes transparency and honesty with his children. He candidly shares stories of his past mistakes and life experiences, adapting the depth of these dialogues to his daughters' developmental stages. This approach, he believes, nurtures trust and resilience in his daughters. "Kids will cling to transparency," Brent says. By owning up to his mistakes and maintaining honesty, he sets a robust foundation of trust and respect in his family. Handling Pain Together Brent's parenting style includes teaching his daughters practical skills to navigate physical and emotional pains. He recounts holding his daughter during her shots, teaching her to breathe through the pain—an approach he values highly. This practice not only builds resilience but also demonstrates his unwavering support and presence during difficult moments. The Dynamics of Different Personalities Unique Bonds with Each Child Recognizing and responding to the unique personalities of his daughters is another core aspect of Brent's parenting philosophy. His older daughter, who shares his passion for activities, bonds with him through early morning walks and fishing trips. On the other hand, his younger daughter cherishes snuggles and quiet chats. Brent's ability to adapt to their distinct needs strengthens his relationship with each child. "Part of me going for walks in the morning has to do with me trying to stay somewhat healthy. Part of it is I wouldn't trade that time for anything," says Brent, highlighting the precious one-on-one times. The Fallible Man: A Journey to Better Self Inspiration Behind the Podcast Driven by a desire to impact lives positively, Brent launched "The Fallible Man" podcast in 2020. Initially rooted in his background in ministry, his motivation evolved as he sought ways to mentor and guide men, especially those without positive male role models. The podcast strives to redefine masculinity, focusing on self-improvement and purposeful living rather than physical attributes. Major Takeaways for Men Reflecting on over 300 episodes, Brent's key takeaway is the critical need for men to discover their unique purpose. "All men were born for a purpose. You inherently have worth because you're a person," he notes. Living in alignment with this purpose, accompanied by humility, paves the way for personal growth and clarity in life's decisions. Brent asserts true masculinity lies in purpose, mission, and authenticity, rather than stereotypical physical traits. Fatherhood Insights and Advice Living for Priorities The podcast episode wraps up with Brent sharing a piece of sage advice: "20 years from now, your boss won't care about how many hours you worked. Your children will never ever ever forget that they were your priority." This encapsulates the essence of Brent's parenting philosophy—being present and making your children feel valued above all else is a lasting legacy of fatherhood. For those keen to learn more about Brent Dowlen and dive deeper into his insights, visit falliblemanpodcast.com. Brent's extensive work aims to help men navigate their journey of self-improvement, ultimately making a positive impact on their families and communities.   TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript made by CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, you and I have an opportunity to be able to talk, to walk this path that we're walking to be able to raise our daughters into those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And I love that we're able to have these conversations because each of us is on our own journey. However, we don't have to do this alone. And it's so important that we surround ourselves with other people with different experiences that can share those experiences with each other. And then we can learn from them. So showing up today is part of the battle. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: You need to show up. You gotta show up for your kids, but you also gotta show up for yourself and you have to be willing to learn because none of us have the perfect playbook when it comes to raising our kids. We have to be open to hearing, listening, and learning from other dads because you know what? They probably have some things they can share. And that's important. It's really important that we're able to learn and grow from each other in that way. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different dads from with different experiences that are able to share those experiences with you so that you can add some new tools to your own toolbox. And today we've got another great guest with us today. Brent Dowlen of The Fallible Man podcast is with us today, and I'm really excited to be able to have Brent with us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: Brent is a father of 2 daughters, and I'm really excited to get to know him a little bit more. Let you get to know him a little bit more and learn a little more about his own fatherhood journey. Brent, thanks so much for being here today. Brent Dowlen [00:01:57]: Chris, thanks for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. I don't get to talk about being a daddy, a daughter, daddy very often. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, I'm excited to have you on. And what I wanna do is I wanna turn the clock back in time again. And I know you've got 2 daughters, so I'm gonna go all the way back. You said you have a 10 year old and a 12 year old. So I want to go back. Maybe let's say it's 13 years, might be 12 and a half years. But I want to go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to to a daughter. What was going through your head? Brent Dowlen [00:02:21]: Well, Chris, I didn't actually know I was gonna have a daughter until she was born. My wife and I went the old fashioned route with both our children, had no idea what we were having because I determined a long time ago that I was just hoping for a healthy kid. So many dads find out right off the bat there's something wrong with their kid, and and that's such a hard reality. So my wife had on the side, and we were just glad if our kid was healthy, then we had already won, and it didn't really matter what it was. So but the doctor put my daughter in my arms for the first time. I did the full tilt thing. I was in the delivery room, and I cut the umbilical cord. And, man, I wish I don't know that there are words for that moment when they put your first child in your arms. Brent Dowlen [00:03:01]: We were a little terrified. My daughter was 3 and a half weeks early, and she was very small. And right off the bat, like, I'm a fairly big guy. I'm 6 foot. I've lifted weights most of my life. And so I'm I'm a fairly husky, big fella. And I was so terrified when they put this beautiful little thing in my hands, and she wasn't the length of my forearm. And I was just, like, looking at this little thing going, oh, wow. Brent Dowlen [00:03:25]: It's real now. This little life is dependent on me, and I'm terrified and thrilled all at the same time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:31]: So talk to me about that fear because I've talked to lots of dads and a lot of dads say they have fear. Not only fear of just being a father, but especially when it came to being a father of a daughter, sometimes there's fear that is different than having a son or in just becoming a father in general. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising your daughters? Brent Dowlen [00:03:55]: That I could live up to setting the bar high enough. From the moment I first looked at my oldest, Abby, I thought I've gotta get it together, man. Because so I have a background in working with kids and youth ministry, particularly in church. To youth minister, I grew up in the church working with children's groups. I was I taught children's bible church and all that stuff growing up. And from the time I was probably in junior high, I started working with younger kids. And it's interesting working with other people's kids, but then all of a sudden, this is a real moment because you've seen mistakes other parents have made. Right? And everybody thinks they have a clue until right? Everybody has an opinion about parenting until you have your own children. Brent Dowlen [00:04:35]: And then you're like, wow. What a jerk I was. But I had this dawning fear. I was like, how can I possibly become enough, fast enough? Because I knew that my daughters are gonna find a guy just like me. And that terrifies me because I was not a great guy my whole life. And so immediately this fear of how can I live up to setting the bar high enough that one day my daughter's gonna bring home a guy that's not a total dirtbag? Because I know, like, I was not the prize to bring home for some dads. I'm I'm sure I made some dads a little bit grayer, a little bit older. So that was the big fear. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]: Talk to me about that because you went through a transition for yourself. You talked about the fact that you were not always the prize to bring home, that you weren't the model man for yourself and for others, let's say. At some point, your daughters may find that out. And have you thought about that? And what are you going to say to your daughters about who you were versus who you are now? Brent Dowlen [00:05:40]: You know, Chris, actually, this conversation, I've started really early with my children. We have been very transparent with the way we raise our kids. Like, my my children, I have scars all over my body. Like, I have I have found every way to hurt myself along the way. Right? So I have all these scars all over my body. I I lived very fast paced, lots of accidents, lots of mistakes, lots of injuries to prove it over the years. And so my daughters love to hear the stories about the scars. Right? They'll pick a random scar. Brent Dowlen [00:06:07]: They don't remember the story from. Or and so I've been very upfront the whole time when my daughter's gone. Yeah. I was stupid. I I made some horrible choices. This was one of those dumb things where God smiled on me and I lived through it regardless of how dumb it was at the moment. And so I've tried to be, of course, age appropriate. Right? We haven't gone into some of the dirtbag choices I've made along the way. Brent Dowlen [00:06:31]: But as it has become more age appropriate, I'm very open to talking to my children about mistakes I've made and about choices I made along my life. And I'm very quick to own up to this was a bad choice. Like, I was in a bad place and making really bad choices. I got into drugs and alcohol for a while and made some poor choices there. And so I've been very forthright about that because one of the things I did take in from being a youth minister into being a dad was kids will cling to transparency. You you can't outlive everything you've ever done. And so many people lie to kids throughout their whole life that you don't have to be perfect. But if you can be honest, if your kids can see that you are honest with them and that you don't pretend to have all the answers, that you're not perfect, that you make mistakes, I'm quick to apologize for things, then there's that that they cling to you because they know if nothing else in your life and their lives, you're real. Brent Dowlen [00:07:32]: I'm the one who gets to hold my children during shots and stuff like that. I have their whole life. I remember going to get shots from my oldest and she said, daddy, is it gonna hurt? I said, yeah, baby, it's gonna hurt, but it's only gonna hurt for a minute. And I'm right here with you and we're gonna breathe through it like you and I have practiced because I was already teaching her how to breathe through pain before that. I've always been very quick because I have racked up the injuries to teach them this is this is how we get through it. We breathe deep. We stay calm. We focus on our breathing. Brent Dowlen [00:08:00]: And so I held her arms against her chest and it hurt for a second. And then within a couple of breaths, it was gone. Right? But there was no, oh, oh, it's just a little, you know, none of that nonsense. Just this is who we are. And it's been it's been effective for me so far. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]: You know, you talked about that fear that you had at the very beginning. And in raising your daughters and raising kids is not always easy. There's going to be ups and downs and they're gonna throw your curve balls along the way and you're gonna have to learn and kind of be able to pivot as you move along. What's been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter? Brent Dowlen [00:08:43]: I have a very logic based outlook on life and approach to things. I I won't say I'm closed off emotionally, but I have lived through some really dark spots in my life over the years. And so softening up from time to time because I don't want to teach them not to deal with their emotions, but it's also hard sometimes for me to realize, wait, we're processing an emotion now. I need to let this happen. I need to let them feel that and not try and make it okay right away. And sometimes I'm bad at recognizing those things because I deal with a lot of emotional stuff at a very, just logical ones and zeros. My brain is very quick to go. Okay. Brent Dowlen [00:09:28]: I'm experiencing and feeling this is a reaction to something. Is it gonna help me right now? Is it not gonna help me right now? If it's not gonna help me right now, I shut it down very quickly until there's a better time to deal with it. I still will go back and deal with that, but I look at it from a very exploded diagram view. I start analyzing it immediately and breaking down what's going on, and what I need to do to adjust instead of feeling it and experiencing it. I tend to analyze through it and process things that way. And so with daughters, they're gonna feel things. Your children have very different personalities. My 12 year old, she's like me, she wants to carry the weight of the world on her shoulders. Brent Dowlen [00:10:06]: And so learning to understand when she's processing something, as opposed to my newly 10 year old, who she's very emotions are on the sleeve. Right? So learning to recognize their emotional needs and responses has been probably one of the bigger pain points for me because it's very easy for me to go and it's not a, I'm a guy thing. I've always been that way. Like, I was a klutzy kid. I had a lot of sinus issues. And so my depth perception was skewed when I was congested. And so I had already had stitches multiple times by the time I was 6. Like, I've been beating myself up for a long time. Brent Dowlen [00:10:45]: My head looks like a topographical map. And so I learned very early to sort the fear and the emotion out of situations. Sometimes just for the sake of survival. I had to deal with a couple moments of if I lose it now, if I can't stay focused and clear, I'm gonna die before I can get to help. And so I've been this way for a very long time, and it's very different with daughters because, yep, you're gonna experience your emotions and their emotions and the emotions they inflict on everybody else. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:14]: You know, you talked about the fact that kids are different, and they have different personalities. And when you add more than one kid to the mix, you gotta deal with it. And you've already talked about the fact that one of your kids wears her emotion on her sleeves, the other one wears it on their shoulders. And you have to be able to show up for both types of kids, both personalities. You have to build those unique relationships with each and try to find that common ground. Talk to me about that. How have you been able to build that those unique bonds with each of your kids, even though they're very different personalities, very different people, and you have to treat them differently in that way? Brent Dowlen [00:11:56]: That's honestly one of the fun parts, I think, about being a dad, girl dad. So my oldest, we process things. She processes things much closer to the way I do. So in learning to deal with her and and her emotional needs, I found she wants to get involved with things. Right. So we go for walks. Like she gets up with me at 4, 4:30 in the morning and we go walk 2 miles on a regular basis. And that is how she connects with me. Brent Dowlen [00:12:25]: And really that one on one time she wants to connect and walk, but not be, it's our own doing. My wife was a tomboy. And so both of us would actually tend to go to the male characteristic of dealing with emotions and communicating and that's side by side as opposed to face to face. And so Abby is much more likely to talk to me while we're out walking or she likes to fish. I hate fishing. I suck at fishing, but I have learned to go fishing because my 12 year old loves to go fishing. So we go fishing regularly. I got all the good fishing gear. Brent Dowlen [00:12:58]: My brother and I took him camping when they were a couple years younger, and they had such a great time. He's a big mountain guy. Like, he's mister mountain kinda thing. So he took him fishing and she's been fishing ever since. And we got back from that trip and I went, okay. And I went to Walmart and I found a nice older gentleman on the fishing aisle. And I said, I don't know anything about fishing, but my daughter likes it and I wanna be able to take her. So what do I need to know? And he had a great time teaching me what I need to know to take her fishing. Brent Dowlen [00:13:25]: It's side by side. It's while we're fishing. It's while we're walking. That's how she wants to process. And she does better. Like, she has a better outlook. She stays more positive. She processes things more if I keep her doing things like that. Brent Dowlen [00:13:38]: So part of me going for walks in the morning has to do with me trying to stay somewhat healthy. Part of it is I wouldn't trade that time for anything Cause that is solid gold time. The youngest one, she wants to cuddle still. At 10, she is very her safe place and both of them to this day at 10 and 12. Like I had both of them, one on each side of me last night, just wrapped under my arms on the couch because daddy is still the safe place. I'm loving that part of being a dad that they're still at 10 and 12, that's where they wanna be. When they're tired, when they're exhausted, they wanna be right up next to me. But my 10 year old, she wants to be much more snuggly when she's processing stuff. Brent Dowlen [00:14:15]: She needs the quiet. She needs the face to face. She just wants to be held and listened to. She went with me to run an errand the other day and talked. We drove an hour. The closest Home Depot is like 45 minutes away from me. So she talked all the way there and all the way back and told me about these books she's reading. And I loved listening to her talk about it because as she's talking about those books, she's talking about things she read in those books that she wants to understand, that she's identifying with. Brent Dowlen [00:14:47]: And so there, I hear about it with her, but then it's afterwards in the face to face moments, in the quiet moments when it's just us that she wants to dig into that stuff. So I feel like winning because my kids wanna talk to me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:00]: I love that. And it changes as they get older, but it's so important when you have those opportunities to take advantage of them, especially as they're young. But even as they get older, if they're willing to give you the time, you take it. Because as they get older, they're gonna pull away a little bit more. And if you've built those strong relationships now, it's what's going to pave the way for the future. Brent Dowlen [00:15:23]: I'm actually really excited about the future. Like, everybody's like, just wait till they're teens. I spent 20 years of my life working with teens. Like, that's my forte. It was this this when they're young and can't communicate, that drove me nuts as dad. Like, that was the hardest part about being a dad was when they're too little to tell you what's hurting or what's making them feel bad or what's like, I was losing my mind. I punched a hole in the wall one day because it's like, oh, right. I felt so powerless, but I'm looking forward to the teen years just because it's like, I understand that age group and that it's gonna be exciting. Brent Dowlen [00:15:57]: My oldest is gonna make me old really quickly. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:59]: I tell people that the gray that you see in my hair is not because I'm old. It's because I have daughters. So I don't know that that's really the case, but I can joke about. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is you've got a great resource out there that you've developed over the last few years and called The Fallible Man and The Fallible Man podcast. And congratulations, you're just going to be putting out, or actually by the time that this goes out, you're going to have passed that 300th episode, which is amazing. So I guess I wanna go back in time and tell me the story of The Fallible Man because podcasting is not easy. It takes time. It takes a lot of time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:38]: It takes a lot of effort. And you gotta be pretty passionate about the topic to be able to keep it going for so long. So talk to me about The Fallible Man. What made you decide that you wanted to jump into this and put all this blood, sweat, and tears into it for as long as you have to put all this content and information out there for the masses? Brent Dowlen [00:16:58]: You know, it's funny because I told this story many times. And there are still days I question my own story on this. It's like, is that really what was driving me at the time? So The Powell Man, we started in 2020. And it really started with I had the sense of urgency that I needed to start to impact people. I told you I have a background in ministry, and I left ministry several years ago now about 18. And but I grew up around it. My dad was a preacher. And so it been ingrained my whole life. Brent Dowlen [00:17:30]: I feel like I need to serve people and impact people in a positive way. It's why I got into youth ministry. And we had several female friends. We used to have about 14 people over every single week, 14 to 16, One night a week, all our friends would come up, just show up at our house. And we'd cook the main meal, and people would bring stuff. We kept pot pot pota kinda meal because it got too expensive because we were going out to a restaurant. It's this nice Italian place once a week, every week. And it just got too expensive for everybody, so we moved to my house. Brent Dowlen [00:17:58]: But I would listen to our female friends get frustrated about their boyfriends or their husbands. And I started becoming the translator for them. They'd be like, oh, he's doing this. I was like, that's not what's actually happening. You understand that. Right? They're like, no. And so I would start translating for these guys who usually weren't there and didn't really know how to translate what they were doing or what was actually happening to this young woman. And I actually had people prodding me to write a book for women about men. Brent Dowlen [00:18:28]: And I was like and this was before the term mansplaining became popular, but it's like all the warning lights went off. I'm like, nope. Nope. That's just gonna end badly. Right? So the years kept going and we had kids. And I started thinking about it because I have I have 7 nieces or no. 9. Nine nieces. Brent Dowlen [00:18:45]: Between the two sides of the family, I have 9 nieces. There's a lot of girls in my life. And I have some that are my on my side of the family because I'm the baby. My oldest brother's daughters are now all in their twenties. One of them is almost 30, and I've watched them grow up. Right? And I watch all these teenage girls I worked with, and I'm watching my younger nieces now. I'm looking at this like, how do I make an impact for them? And then my daughters came along. And I was like, how do I make an impact that can truly do something for them? And like a lot of dads, when I became a dad, I kinda started on this journey of self improvement because I was terrified I wasn't going to be able to set a good enough example for my kids. Brent Dowlen [00:19:25]: And so I started down this journey for myself and eventually it led me to it was like, well, that's what I can do, is I can help other men who are somewhere on that journey. And so part of it was this need to impact people in a positive way. And then how do I solve this other problem of how do I help young men, especially in a time where there are more and more men growing out without positive male role models in the home? For whatever reasons, no no judgments on that's not that's not my place. For whatever reason, there are a lot of young men growing up without positive male role models in the home. And I was on a forum just the other day on Reddit and I wanted to cry reading this post. And it's like, we have no one to show us how to be men because y'all have can't agree on what that even is at this point. What masculinity is supposed to look like. And I'm reading is like this was maybe 2 days ago. Brent Dowlen [00:20:16]: I was reading this forum. And it's like, this is why I'm doing this. Because I can't help everyone. But how can I reach the most people to encourage men who are on that journey to grow into their best selves, whether they had a good influence or they had a bad influence, there becomes time when you decide to do it for yourself? So how do I help those guys? And so I started my show and then I started having guests on to fill in the gaps that I couldn't necessarily talk about, but it started with my journey trying to become the best version of me. So that's my daughter c. And then, how can I help other men make that journey, so that one of these days, there are positive male role models influencing the next generation, the next generation because that's gonna affect my daughters and their children? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:05]: So you've put out there 300 episodes. You've met a lot of people. And I'm sure that along the way, you've learned a lot, not only about yourself, but about what you were just talking about in regards to what men need right now. And some of that's subjective. I'm gonna be very honest about that because there's many people that have probably many different thoughts on what masculinity should be, ought to be, could be, etcetera. Talk to me about your biggest takeaways. Looking back at 300 episodes, looking back at 300 interviews, 300 conversations, and what's been the biggest takeaways for you that you think that all men need to know to be able to connect better either with themselves, with other men, and to be that better version of themselves that they want to be. Brent Dowlen [00:21:58]: You know, I wanted to be a place that's why I called it the fallible man. I wanted to be upfront that I was on a journey. I didn't ever wanna come across as the guy who had all the answers because that's an immediate turn off. Right? That that that's all crap. No one no one has all the answers. No one has it perfect. I'm very quick to share my failings with my audience because that's an incredibly important part of the journey for any of us. And I've wrestled with and reformed on this question so many times, Chris. Brent Dowlen [00:22:26]: Like, I am constantly at war with this question in my head, adjusting what I think is crucial, what I think is the ultimate, how do I get that down to really bite sized pieces for people. And I think where I'm at right now is this. All men were born for a purpose. You inherently have worth because you're you're a person. You're born, therefore, you have worth. But you are born for a purpose, and your mission is to find a way to that purpose. Because once men are very mission oriented and once you find what that purpose is for you, it clarifies your other choices. It gives you direction. Brent Dowlen [00:23:06]: It gives you meaning. And once you start to live in alignment with that, everything else just seems easier. But we all have a unique purpose. Right? Because we all are unique individuals with our own back stories, our own experiences in lives, the personalities, the people who have influenced us, make us all very unique in the way we deal with things, and the way we process emotions and thoughts and feelings. And so you uniquely have something to offer the world that is a great value. And for men, finding that purpose and trying to pull everything else into alignment with them, well, that is probably one of the most critical things they can do because once you find that, everything else gets easier. You gain so much clarity on the direction you wanna go with things. It makes decisions easier because it either falls in line with that or it doesn't. Brent Dowlen [00:23:53]: And men need a sense of direction and purpose to really flourish. I've had so many people, like, I go out of my way. You will not come to my podcast and find a bunch of guys thumping their chest and grunting and saying men's men men. Right? I'm a fairly, quote, unquote, stereotypically masculine guy. I ride a motorcycle. I shoot guns. I was in military briefly. I lift weights. Brent Dowlen [00:24:17]: I have a beard. I usually have a mohawk. I mean, I'm none of that is masculinity. None of it. That is not it. And so I rail against that on my podcast. I am interested in men who actually want to be men. And that looks there are a lot of common attributes, but it has nothing to do with the physicality. Brent Dowlen [00:24:34]: Yes. If you have a certain physicality, some people will take you more seriously. But I've had the privilege of knowing some elite elite soldiers over the years. I intermingled with a lot of special forces guys over the years. I had a navy seal who was cross training into another program in a different branch of military, and he was nothing to look at. Right? He wasn't a big guy. He wasn't all jacked. He didn't have this huge physical presence from his physicality, but he had a presence that was undeniable because of who he was and the confidence in which he carried himself. Brent Dowlen [00:25:07]: And that came from he had a purpose and a mission and a direction and he lived in alignment with that. It's who he was. So I think for a lot of men, just finding that purpose, and then I may be one of the first guys you'll hear say it is learning humility. If you find your purpose and start living in alignment with that and can embrace humility, because it takes strength to be humble. Humility is not a weakness. Humility comes from a place of strength. But if you can have the humility to go, I have room to grow. I don't have all the answers. Brent Dowlen [00:25:38]: Right. Then you can grow. Then you can live in alignment with that purpose and those beliefs and those ideals that you value. And you can live your best life because you have to get into that growth mindset of I'm here. I didn't hate who I was when I became a dad, but I looked at who I was and I went, what is the bar I wanna set for my children? I want them to see me make mistakes. I want them to see me own those mistakes. I want them to see me struggle and grow because I want them to know the journey is worthwhile. And so, yeah, finding your purpose as a man, I think is critical because it makes everything clearer. Brent Dowlen [00:26:12]: And then embracing that humility because not because you're weak, but because you're strong enough to go, I can be better. I can do more. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:19]: And what are some of the first steps that you would recommend that someone take to find that purpose for themselves? Brent Dowlen [00:26:26]: Hindsight is a huge blessing. I think it's actually a lot easier for guys who have a few more years than some younger guys. I think that's why it takes so long for some of us to find our purpose and direction because you need that hindsight. But you have to have enough hindsight. You have to have that 50,000 foot view sometimes. For a long time, I thought I was supposed to go into ministry, and I ran from it. Before I finally went into ministry, I ran from, I have my own Jonah story. But years later, looking back with that 50,000 foot view, it wasn't necessarily ministry I needed to be in. Brent Dowlen [00:26:56]: That was just the way I understood to express that need, that purpose for me. I have a gift in helping other people grow and rise, mentoring other people. And I see that because I look back over I started working when I was 16 years old. 44 now. I've had a wide array of jobs because I could never stay anywhere because I was bored with them. But everywhere I've ever gone, I always end up being a trainer or a teacher in the group. My last big company I worked for, I was the lead trainer for our entire division. Part of my job wasn't what I got to do full time, but it was part of my job. Brent Dowlen [00:27:27]: I wrote all of the documentation. I did all the onboarding. I trained all the new people. I went and set up new sites. The job I had before that, oh, I ended up training people. The job I had before that, totally different industry. I got all the new people with me because they trusted me to train them. And so as I started looking back, it's like, okay, no matter what I do, and I've also been a personal trainer, no matter what I do, it always comes back to working with people to grow in an area where they wanna grow. Brent Dowlen [00:27:55]: And so, and I can look back over years years years of my life now at 44 and go, wow. That's what it's been every place I've been. It doesn't matter what I do. That's where I end up. And it's like, okay. So maybe my talents and gifts and purpose all align with teaching people or helping people grow. Right? Because as a personal trainer, I love to be in a personal trainer because I was so excited for every half step forward for any of my clients. I relished in them hitting goals and overcoming things that were trying to get past. Brent Dowlen [00:28:25]: I specialized in working with people who are usually working around an injury or recovering from an injury, and I loved helping them gain that back. Right? Just to see them thrive. I trained so many people in the IT industry to watch them take better jobs, better positions after I trained them. And I was happy for all of them. I was never mad when they left because I had to train somebody else. I was thrilled that they got a better position for better pay. And so I think age gives you a lot of benefit when you have that. Now when you're younger in your twenties, you're still trying to figure out a lot of things. Brent Dowlen [00:28:55]: You're still experiencing life. You don't have that experience to look back over with that 50,000 foot view. But I would encourage people to look at it and go, okay. This is what I like to do, but what is it I truly love about doing that? Not so much, yeah, I'd like to do this or I like to do that. Yeah. But really dig deep in that. My as my mentor, Dai, told me, what's the why beneath the why beneath the why? Six times. That was the minimal rule. Brent Dowlen [00:29:24]: Six times. Why? Okay? Why? Right? Six times deep minimal with him. And in your twenties, that's what you really gotta do is, okay, I really love doing this. Like, I'm passionate about doing this, but why am I passionate about doing that? What aspect of this am I really truly passionate about? What really gets me out of bed? And then you can start to see once you get to that aspect, you can kinda zoom out a little bit and start to see what about that is it moving me? Okay. When I was younger, did that move me? Would I be interested in this because I would get to do that? It's not quite the experience take, but I it's probably the easiest direction to go in your younger years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:01]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Brent Dowlen [00:30:08]: Oh, I don't know, but we'll see. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:09]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Brent Dowlen [00:30:11]: Blessing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:12]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded in being a father to a daughter? Brent Dowlen [00:30:18]: I'll let you know when I get there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:19]: If I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad? Brent Dowlen [00:30:23]: Present. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:23]: And 10 years from now, what do you want them to say? Brent Dowlen [00:30:25]: That we never had any question that dad was always there for us, that we were a priority. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:30]: Now, who inspires you to be a better dad? Brent Dowlen [00:30:33]: My father. Because my dad passed. It's almost been 3 years now. But to the day he died, I never once questioned. My father loved me, that I was a priority to him, that he always had my back. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today. A lot of things that you've learned along the way. Not only learned in your own journey, but learned from other men and other people. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Brent Dowlen [00:30:56]: 20 years from now, your boss won't care about how many hours you worked. Your children will never ever ever forget that they were your priority. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:05]: Now if people want to find out more about you, more about the fallible man, where should they go? Brent Dowlen [00:31:09]: The easiest place to go would be the falliblemanpodcast.com. You can get on our mailing list. You can check out the podcast via the YouTube video, your favorite audio player. I've got 7 links out to your favorite audio as well as being embedded, and see what we're doing and what we're about, and if it's something you're interested in. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:26]: And we'll put links in the notes today so that you can find that for yourself and check it out and and hear some of the 300 plus episodes that Brent has already put out there and that he'll keep putting out there to help other men be better men. Brent, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for what you're doing to be able to engage men in these conversations, but also to engage in the process of being able to work on themselves to become those men that they wanna be. Thank you for being here. Thanks for what you're doing, and I wish you all the best. Brent Dowlen [00:31:57]: Thanks, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:58]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:57]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and beat the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best that you can be.

In a recent episode of Dads with Daughters, we delve into the multifaceted journey of fatherhood with guest Travis Hawkley, a father of three vibrant daughters aged 17, 13, and 9. The episode is a treasure trove of insights, real-life anecdotes, and practical advice for fathers striving to be the best dads they can be.  Embracing Each Child's Unique Needs One of the central themes of the conversation is the importance of treating each child as an individual. Travis shares how his middle daughter faced anxiety around dance recitals. Despite her love for dancing, the pressure to perform became overwhelming. Instead of insisting she fit into a conventional dance class, Travis and his wife found a non-performing dance class that allowed their daughter to continue her passion without the stress of recitals. This decision underscores Travis's belief in accommodating each child's unique needs rather than imposing one-size-fits-all expectations. Travis's approach to parenting is a thoughtful balance of supporting his daughters' independence while providing the guidance and resources they need to explore their interests. The key is to avoid making his daughters feel like they need to prioritize his feelings over their own, thereby fostering a sense of independence and self-driven choices. The Power of Curiosity and Engagement Travis advocates for a parenting style rooted in curiosity and engagement. He emphasizes the importance of initiating conversations and asking open-ended questions to understand each child's interests and aspirations. This approach not only strengthens the parent-child bond but also empowers children to express themselves freely. Supporting their interests doesn't have to be costly. Travis suggests starting with low-cost activities to gauge their passion. For example, his oldest daughter's interest in stagecraft was nurtured with encouragement and opportunities to explore theater, even without a clear career path in mind. The support allowed her to pursue her passion without fear of failure. Travis shares that his most successful moments as a father are when his daughters approach him with difficult questions, showcasing their trust and openness. This trust is built through consistent engagement and letting children guide conversations, ensuring they feel heard and valued. Overcoming Limiting Beliefs A significant part of Travis's parenting philosophy is fostering a positive growth mindset. He underscores the importance of helping children overcome limiting beliefs—self-imposed barriers that can hinder their potential. Drawing from his own experience, Travis recalls how being praised for his test-taking skills became a limiting belief, leading him to put less effort into his studies. It was only through conscious effort that he deconstructed this belief to succeed academically later in life. Travis applies these lessons to his children, particularly regarding their future aspirations. His oldest daughter, for instance, feels uncertain about her post-high school plans amidst societal pressure to have a clear career path. Travis reassures her by sharing his varied career experiences and emphasizes the importance of flexibility and openness to change. He encourages her to consider non-traditional career paths, like becoming an electrician while indulging her theater interests, highlighting the value of adaptability in today's world. Inspiration and Influence Travis draws inspiration from his daughters and their interactions, finding joy and motivation in their growth. His parenting style is also influenced by his parents—his mother encouraged exploration and trying new things, while his father, despite different interests, provided a model of support and care. This blend of influences has shaped Travis's motto: "Love wastefully." He emphasizes that love is an inexhaustible resource and advocates for loving fully and unconditionally. This philosophy extends to self-love and maintaining a balance between work and personal fulfillment. Conclusion In his conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Travis Hawkley showcases a profound and nuanced approach to fatherhood. By treating each child as an individual, fostering curiosity, and helping them overcome limiting beliefs, Travis exemplifies the values of love and support that are crucial in raising strong, independent daughters. His journey reminds us that being present, engaged, and adaptable are key components of fatherhood. As Travis encourages, let's all strive to "love wastefully" and support our children's journeys without reservation.       TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created through CASTMAGIC) Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to walk on this journey with you because, you know, it is a journey. All of us are on a journey together in trying to raise our daughters. Whether you have a brand new newborn at home or you have college age kids, you're always going to be a father And you're always going to have to do what you can to continue to learn to grow and to be present, to be active and to be able to be there to help your kids to continue to become the people that they're becoming. And we can't do that alone. There are so many other dads that are out there that have walked this path prior to us, are walking side by side with us, and men don't always do a great job of talking to one another. That may not be a surprise to you, but it's true. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: And it's important for us to understand that we have resources in our own community and beyond that can help us to be even better dads. So that's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to help you to be that active dad that you wanna be, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox and to open up your mind to different ways of doing things because there's no one right way to father. You can do it in so many different ways, but you can learn from other dads too. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you along that journey. And today we got another great dad with us. Travis Hockley is with us today. And Travis is a father of 3 girls. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: He has 3 girls that are 17, 13, and 9. So he's right in the thick of it and working to help his daughters to prepare them to be grown and flown. He's got one that's gonna graduate this year. So it is a definite process. And I'm really looking forward to talking with him today about his own journey and to share that journey with you as well. Travis, thanks so much for being here today. Travis Hawkley [00:02:24]: Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]: It is my pleasure. I thank you for being here. And we always start our interviews with an opportunity to kind of turn the clock back in time. I love being able to do that. I said you have 3 girls and your oldest is 17. So I'm gonna go back. Maybe it's 18 years. Maybe it's 17 and a half years, you know, but I wanna know what was your first reaction? What was that first reaction that you had when you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter? Travis Hawkley [00:02:52]: You know, I I've listened to a few episodes of the podcast and have talked to a lot of other dads. And I've noticed that a lot of dads were pretty fearful, terrified, apprehensive about having a daughter. And, honestly, I didn't feel that. I think I probably would have felt more terrified had it been having a boy. And that comes from any number of things. But growing up, I didn't I guess I didn't ever, like, identify a whole lot with a lot of the, like, quote, unquote, stereotypical guy things. Wasn't a huge fan of sport. Didn't really like a lot of that stuff. Travis Hawkley [00:03:25]: I liked art. I liked music. I liked the things that are unfortunately labeled as stereotypically female. And so when we were starting to have kids and I found out I was having a girl, that to me just it felt right. It felt normal. It felt natural. I was like, alright. I I can do this. Travis Hawkley [00:03:43]: And as you mentioned, I have 3. And every time, you know, went through that process and found out I was having another girl, I was just excited. And then after we had our 3rd, someone said, well, are you gonna try for a 4th and see if you can get that boy? And I thought to myself and I'm like, okay. Well, statistically speaking, if we have another one, it's probably gonna be a girl too because that's just the way that that works in in a lot of cases. But I was like, you know, I know girls. I'm a good girl dad. I I know what I'm doing at this point in time. You know, if I were to have a boy, that would really kinda throw things off a little bit. Travis Hawkley [00:04:16]: You know, if if we were to have another one, which we didn't. But having a girl would probably be another great thing. So I didn't really feel that apprehension. I I loved it, and I've loved every minute of being a a girl dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:26]: It's definitely a journey and definitely something you have to learn about. I relate to what you said in regards to growing up. I was much more on the music, the choir, the theater, the the things that were not the let's watch basketball, baseball, football, you know, being on the sports teams and things like that. And not to say that there's anything wrong with that, but Nope. That I think that I would have probably felt similar if I had had a son and being able to understand, okay, what do I have to do to be able to understand where they are going to be coming from? Because their journey may be different than mine. But at the same time, I guess I have to think about that as a father to a daughter too, because their journey is definitely different than mine. And I have to realize that and be open to that as well. Now you said that you didn't really feel fear when your children were born. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:20]: As your kids have gotten older, as they've gone through the different phases and stages, and you have one that's getting ready to be in her last year of high school, and then you've got younger ones as well. What would you say has been your biggest fear throughout their lives that you've had to deal with? Travis Hawkley [00:05:35]: I think one of the biggest things that I have been fearful of really has less to do with them and more to do with me as a father of I didn't want to put expectations on my kids in such a way that would cause them to maybe count my feelings as more important than their own. I didn't want them to ever think, oh, if I don't do this, I'm gonna disappoint my dad. That was never something that I wanted them to feel. And I feel like my parents did a really good job of that as well. So that was you know, it wasn't something that that was I was trying to go against how I was raised. I feel like my parents did a great job, but I just I didn't want them to go through life thinking that what I thought was more important than what they wanted to do. So I think that's probably has been and still is my biggest fear. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:28]: Now you have 3 daughters, all at very different ages, completely different parts of their life in how they relate to you, probably how they relate to each other. And once you bring more than one child in the mix, you have to deal with a lot of the connections and you have to be able to do what you can as a father to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your kids because each of your children are always going to be very different than one another. That being said, as you think about the journey that you've been on with your daughters, what have you had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters to be able to allow you to understand them better, but also allow for them to be able to connect better with you? Travis Hawkley [00:07:15]: Yeah. That's a fantastic question. And we definitely spread them out. I mean, they're all 4 years apart in school. So my oldest is currently in her will will be entering her senior year of high school, which means that my middle child is 13. She'll be entering her 8th grade year, and then my youngest will be entering her 4th grade year. So they are never in the same school at the same time, except for, like, 1 year in elementary school. So it really has been very different to get to know them and parent them because they aren't. Travis Hawkley [00:07:46]: They're not in a similar life position at all, which has been really interesting and fascinating. For each one of them, I mean, it has been really nice. It was really nice with my oldest, for example, because she was 4 by the time her sister was born. So I had a lot of time. And at that point in time, I was teaching and going to school. So I had a lot of extra time that I could spend with her. So she and I kind of, I mean, grew up together. We learned a lot from each other. Travis Hawkley [00:08:13]: We'd go to the library at any time that we wanted to. You know, all the things that we wanted to do, we just kinda did, which was nice. And she, personality wise, is a lot like her mom. And so she and I got along really well. When my second child came along, she was very much personality wise like me, and we did not mesh at all. And so it was really, really difficult to between the ages of maybe 25, we just butted heads constantly. And it was really, really rough. I really feared so I guess here's one thing I did fear. Travis Hawkley [00:08:46]: I really feared that she and I would never really be able to connect. And I knew deep down that that likely wasn't going to be the case, that we just kinda had to figure each other out. And I think where we finally did learn how to connect was once I kinda took away those expectations at the beginning. And I did have certain expectations on my kids even though I attempted not to. I expected her to act a certain way, and she wasn't gonna act that way. And that had nothing to do with parenting, had everything to do with just her innate personality. And once I figured out how to let that go and accept her personality and and accept her feelings and accept who she was, we were able to connect. And now she's probably the most like me, and she and I could connect perfectly well. Travis Hawkley [00:09:34]: So, yeah, there definitely have been challenges with each one to kinda get to know them. And I think for me, it's been finding their thing. So my oldest was, for example I mean, we're all readers just because I'm a reader, so reading's just always been a thing. But my oldest was really, like, a reader. She would just pour through books, and she and I connect in that way. My middle child, not as much of a reader, but she really likes movement and dance and things like that. So she and I have been able to connect through that. My youngest, she more likes movies and other things. Travis Hawkley [00:10:10]: So it's been a lot of spending time together to discover what each one of them likes and trying to make sure that I connect with them on that, but also just kind of being curious. I think for me, the the biggest thing as a dad is being curious about what it is that they are interested in at the moment and giving that my attention and helping them to figure out what they're interested in. And by doing that, I've been able to keep them interested, keep them coming to me. They feel like they can come to me with anything. They're not gonna get pushed away. My oldest was in 8th grade, so this is three and a half years ago now, probably. My oldest was trying to kinda figure out what she was gonna do in high school, you know, her courses for high school. She didn't know exactly what she wanted to do. Travis Hawkley [00:10:54]: And she came to me, and she's like, what if I did theater? And I was like, I I think that's fascinating. I think you'd be really good at that. And she's like, well, I don't wanna act. She's like, what if I did stagecraft? And I could tell that she was maybe a little bit apprehensive to go to her mom about it because her mom wanted her to do certain things. And when she came to me, and she brought it up and was really excited about it, I was like, well, let's let's look into it. Let's kinda figure it out. We love going to musicals, so being around with really amazing sets and that lifestyle, whatever, was something that we were into, and she has run with it. So now she runs the soundboard for all the musicals and the plays, and she's a stage manager. Travis Hawkley [00:11:32]: So she does all this really cool stuff, and she's starting to do a community. So something that she was just really kind of interested in, didn't really know, she and I were able to connect on and kind of turn that into something that might continue, might end up being a potential career path for her as well. So Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:48]: Love that because there are so many different career paths that you can take, and sometimes you go down one pathway that can spark an interest, spark a light, and can open up a door for something completely different than you thought. And so I commend you for encouraging her in that way. And, you know, one of the things that I think that that really makes me think about is the fact that I think that many women today, and I've seen this in my own daughters, whether it be society or people around them, there have been things that make them feel that they're limited, that they have these limiting beliefs that hold them back from achieving their full potential. I said, I've seen this in my own daughters and we've had to have many conversations and and really trying to unpack that for ourselves. And I know in talking to you, you said you've had some similar things that you've been doing with your own daughters to be able to help them and to really make them think in different ways. I guess I'd be interested to better understand where did you start seeing that in your own daughters? And what did you have to start putting in place to try to unpack that for your daughters so that they were willing to not only hear you, but then be willing to act on what you were trying to instill in them? Travis Hawkley [00:13:03]: So I think in order to kind of unpack that, I've got to go back to my own childhood and look at all of the one of the things that has been pretty constant in my life, and I think in most of our lives, has changed. So when I was 12 years old, my family moved from Fort Worth, Texas to Boise, Idaho, and that was a huge change. And then when I was 18, I went and lived in Russia for a semester to teach English to little kids at a kindergarten in Russia as a kind of a volunteer experience. And I lived for a couple years in Spain, and then I went to school, and I moved around a lot. I became a teacher. I taught at the college level, ESL and Spanish at a college level mostly. And so I have gone through a lot of changes where I've had to confront a lot of my own limiting beliefs and kind of deconstruct those. Living outside of the country is a fantastic way to butt up against those things that you have that are gonna limit you. Travis Hawkley [00:13:54]: I remember multiple occasions when I lived in Russia. I was 18 years old. I didn't know anything, you know, about life in the real world. And there I was in all these situations where the things that I had grown up with, the beliefs that I had grown up with were being pushed back against by people who believed in a completely different way. And, you know, I found that I could go one of 2 ways. I could either fight back against them and try to hold on to the things that I thought were right, or I could examine those beliefs and figure out where they could change and how I could become different, how I could help make those beliefs work for me. And so I started regularly through all these insane life changes, examine these beliefs, and try and figure out where they come from, and why were they there, and how were they causing me to act in a certain way. And so I I started in my head, just as as you were talking about, and I started calling them limiting beliefs. Travis Hawkley [00:14:49]: And as I was teaching so I had one particular job where I worked at a career college in Tucson, Arizona. And my job was specifically to help people who were getting back into school. So most of them had been out of college for a while. They were coming back to school at 25, 30. I think the oldest student that I had was 63 who were coming back to a career college to try and do something different. Now a lot of these students had been not great students when they were in school before. They'd either had not finished high school, they never finished their diploma or GED, or had gotten their GED by the skin in their teeth, had been told by their teachers that they weren't good students, that they were never going to amount to anything. And they were coming back to school because they needed a way out. Travis Hawkley [00:15:31]: They needed to change their lives. And they saw education as being that way, that thing that was going to help them. And so the class that I taught focused on 3 different things. Academic study skills, number 1, super important. They wanted to make sure that they could actually do school. Also, career exploration skills. So we, you know, did resume writing and interview questions and that type of thing, which was really fun. But then the 3rd piece was mindset. Travis Hawkley [00:15:55]: It was looking at helping them figure out how to have a positive growth mindset moving forward. And that was where I really, really, really so at at that point in time, my oldest was 2, maybe 3 years old when I got that job. And so it was a really great time for me to have that job, that experience because it really helped me to flush out to see these people going through this experience of deconstructing actively, harshly these ideas that they had grown up with and had had since they were really young. And so it it taught me to be very cognizant of what I was putting on my kids. I didn't want them to have any beliefs that were going to stop them, that were going to limit them. I wanted them to grow up free of those things. And, you know, that's hard, and I'm idealistic for me to say, oh, I didn't want them to have any sort of beliefs that we're going to limit them. But I think depending on how you view any belief could be a bit a limiting belief. Travis Hawkley [00:17:00]: But I think what it really boils down to is helping them to be able to overcome, any belief that they find that might be getting in the way. One of the things and I and I always liked to share this one when it came to my teaching experience as well. When I was in 1st grade, I had a very little white haired grandmotherly type first grade teacher. Her name was missus Cox. She was fantastic. Both my my older brother and older sister had had her as well. So I was the 3rd of me and my siblings to have her. And she told me when I was in 1st grade that I was really, really good at taking tests and that I was gonna be really successful in school because I was really good at taking tests. Travis Hawkley [00:17:36]: Now that sounds like it's a wonderful thing, except that as I got older, and mostly into high school and college was where I really saw this, I felt like I was really good at taking tests and didn't need to study all that much because I was good at taking tests. And so it was really difficult. I mean, I did really well on tests, period. I mean, I I was great at taking tests, but I didn't put in the work to really make a lot of that knowledge last. So even something that seems like it's a positive can potentially limit you in certain ways. And once I figured that out, when I was in college, I was probably in my junior year of college. By the time I kinda figured that out, then I had to go through process of deconstructing that and figuring out how to go about doing the rest of my education without having that be a problem. So when it comes to my girls, I try to make sure that they know that any belief that they have, we can go about modifying it or changing it. Travis Hawkley [00:18:31]: Or we can figure out how to work within that belief if it's causing problems to what they wanna do. I'll give an example. My my 13 year old is a dancer. And probably maybe 4 years ago, she came to me, and she was having a hard time a lot with, like, recovery when it came to how she was able to do her dance practices and her workouts and things like that. She wanted to get better. And at that point in time, I had done a lot of diet and lifestyle changes. I've had kind of figured out some things, and I made some suggestions to her. And I said, you certainly don't have to do this, but you wanted to kind of adopt this lifestyle that I have. Travis Hawkley [00:19:10]: I feel like you might benefit from this. And she was like, well, I'll certainly give it a try even though it was different from the way the rest of the family ate, except for myself, of course, and was way different from the way most of her friends led their lives. And she was able to adopt that lifestyle and was able to make a lot of really interesting changes when it came to her her dance. She was able to recover lots faster. She was able to, you know, just get better by leaps and bounds. Where before, she was, you know, very incrementally getting better. Now she was exponentially getting better. And she's an amazing dancer now where had she had she not made those changes, you know, who knows? So it's interesting to look at, and not that she was eating bad before, but just for the lifestyle that she wanted, adopting a different belief system led her to be able to do that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:13]: So that was your oldest that you were just talking about. And right? Travis Hawkley [00:20:18]: Middle child. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]: Okay. So talk to me about what so that was your middle child that you were talking about. So what has been the the, what's been the reaction as you've had these conversations with your youngest and your oldest? Travis Hawkley [00:20:37]: So about that specifically or about, you know, just in in general about things that they like to do? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]: About the limiting beliefs and and things that limit them and hold them back. Travis Hawkley [00:20:48]: Yeah. So my oldest, I think the thing that has been the most prevalent recently is, as you mentioned, she will be graduating from high school next year. And her biggest thing on her mind is what she's gonna do after. And she has had this problem for years, probably since she was in the 7th grade, where she felt like her friends all knew what they were gonna do. They all already had their life plan out. I'm gonna be a doctor. I'm gonna be a whatever. I'm gonna do this. Travis Hawkley [00:21:13]: And she had no idea. She did not know what she wanted to do, and that was really frustrating to her because she didn't have one thing that she found to be really, really interesting. And I told her that. I'm like, that's not a problem at all. But she saw it as one because society was telling her that she should know what she wanted to do when she grew up. We asked that question to kids all the time. What do you wanna be when you grow up? And she felt like she should know, and she did. And that was really, really hard. Travis Hawkley [00:21:39]: And I made sure to point out to her how many different things I had gone through. Yes. I was a teacher, but I taught so many different things. And I taught at a university. I taught at a community college. I taught at the career college. I wasn't when we when I moved back to Boise about 10 years ago, I wasn't able to find a job in education. I got a job as a sales guy at an IT company. Travis Hawkley [00:21:59]: I didn't know anything about sales. I didn't know anything about IT. And I got that job, and I was able to make it work. And I was interested, and I was curious. And so I have I walked her through all those different things that I've gone through in my life and said, you might choose one thing that you're gonna do in your college career, and that's gonna change anyway. Most people nowadays, at least, do not start out with one thing and stay doing that one thing for the rest of their life. And if they do, that's awesome. That's because they've been able to stick with it, be interested in it. Travis Hawkley [00:22:28]: That's something that is great for them. I'm like, but not everybody's like that. You get to figure out what you're like, and you get to figure out how you wanna proceed. And that's something that has been kind of interesting because her mom is very much set on her going the route of the traditional 4 year bachelor's degree education going through and and doing that process and getting a job that way. And my daughter doesn't want to. She has talked about becoming an electrician. And using that, coupled with the theater experience that she was talking about before, setting up sound systems, microphone systems she wants to continue to work at. She's currently volunteering at a small playhouse here, being a stage manager, doing sets, doing sound, and she's been able to find something that she feels she's going to be able to do for a while. Travis Hawkley [00:23:17]: And we've had conversations about what happens when that changes. What happens when she becomes interested in something else and doesn't wanna keep doing that? And I think in a lot of cases, most people get into that sort of situation and they feel stuck. How am I gonna change? How am I gonna do this? That sunk cost fallacy of being like, I've already put in this much time and effort. I can't switch. I can't do something different. And so that's kind of been a conversation a lot recently with my oldest. My youngest, you know, really hasn't hit a lot of those yet being only 9. But I think the one most recently, she followed in her just oldest sister, my middle child's footsteps, and went into dance. Travis Hawkley [00:23:54]: And she found herself getting kind of anxious about performing in dance recitals. And she didn't really know what it was when she was, like, 5 or 6 years old. She just kind of didn't think that she really liked being up in front of people, but she didn't really know what was going on. And just this last year, she came to us, and she said she's like, I wanna keep dancing. She's like, I just don't wanna keep performing. Can I do that? Is that okay? And, of course, that's okay. We just had to get her into the right dance class. We found dance classes that worked where she was able to do the dance classes and learn routines and learn skills, but she didn't have to perform in front of people. Travis Hawkley [00:24:36]: That's just not something that she is interested in doing where my 13 year old loves it, thrives on that. And so for my kids, it's that each one of them is so different. Lumping them all into one expectation and saying, well, because we want this for you or we want this for the other, you all have to do the same thing. That's ridiculous. I've been able to help each one of them in unique ways to kind of find their own way forward. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:02]: Now as you think about other dads that are out there that are listening to this and want to start having these conversations with their own conversations with their own daughters. Is there advice that you might have for them in regards to how to start? Travis Hawkley [00:25:14]: I think being curious about your kids is one of the main ways. And especially if you notice your kids struggling in a certain way or trying to live up to some standard that they're not sure where it came from, be curious. Be engaged. Just start the conversation. You know? Hey. What are you interested in now? What is something that I don't know about you? What is something that you're interested in that, that I might be interested in? Teach me about something. Tell me about what's important to you. And I know that's hard. Travis Hawkley [00:25:49]: I mean, I I feel like I've done a good job from the beginning of keeping engaged with my girls. I've never really had to fight to keep their attention or to get their attention. But really that is born from I've always done this. I've always been interested. I've always been engaged. I'm a lifelong learner. I was a teacher, so I'm interested in everything. And so it was easy for me to kind of step in and say, well, what do you want to do? Let's explore that. Travis Hawkley [00:26:13]: And every time that my kids, within reason, every time that my kids wanted to try something, I was all for it. I was like, alright. Let's go. Let's do this. And I made sure that they knew if it was something that there was gonna be a lot of cost, I was like, let's find a low cost way to do this just in case it does stick. And at the moment that it sticks, we'll go all in. We can buy all the things. We can do all the whatever. Travis Hawkley [00:26:33]: But I wanna make sure that it's something that you're really interested in. Then when it is, great. Let's go. And so I think, again, just kind of boiling that down. Be engaged. Be curious. You've gotta spend time with your kids. You've gotta give them that time, and you've gotta let them take over and kinda steer those conversations. Travis Hawkley [00:26:53]: Having those expectations of, oh, my kids should be this way. My kids need to do this. That's gonna lead to your kids. In some cases, they're they're gonna thrive on that. They're gonna be okay. And in others, that's not gonna be who they are, and they're gonna have a hard time. But getting to know your kids, asking them open ended questions, and just, again, being curious, being engaged, I think is is probably the best advice I could give. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:15]: We always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Travis Hawkley [00:27:22]: I'm ready. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:22]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Travis Hawkley [00:27:24]: Love.  Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:25]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Travis Hawkley [00:27:28]: I think it comes mostly from every time they come to me with a question that I know was difficult for them to approach with me. Knowing that they feel my love and openness to where they could come to me, I think that's when I feel the most successful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:47]: Now if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad? Travis Hawkley [00:27:50]: I'm I'm sure all sorts of colorful words would come around. I'm I'm definitely not a normal person in a lot of ways. They would probably describe me as being funny and weird and being really energetic, and they would probably use the word engaged too. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Travis Hawkley [00:28:08]: I mean, my girls definitely inspire me to be a better dad. I mean, on a daily basis, when I'm playing with them, when I'm talking to them, I just I want to be the best type of dad that I can. My own dad was a huge influence on me. He was great. We didn't necessarily have the same interests. He was very much the sports is sports guy, loves to watch sports, and yet he still found ways to connect with me, which was fantastic. And so he definitely helped my mom. Another great example, not a dad, but she was an example of a great parent. Travis Hawkley [00:28:41]: She was interested. She loved to help me, you know, explore new things. She taught me how to cook when I was really young. She a lot of things that I find interesting kinda came from her. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:52]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, a lot of things that you've learned along the way with your 3 daughters. As you think about dads that are listening, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Travis Hawkley [00:29:04]: For sure. I have a motto, and it's actually painted on my wall in my house in letters that are probably a foot and a half tall. And it's probably about, you know, 8 feet long. And it says love wastefully. And it comes from a guy named John Shelby Spong, and he talks about just loving in such a way that we just give everything, that we just love with everything that we have. And that has been you know, I only discovered that maybe, like, a year and a half ago, that freezing. But I noticed as I kinda look back on my life, I I really have tried to adopt that in a lot of ways, whether it comes to dealing with my kids, dealing with other people, dealing with myself. As a dad, I think it is really hard for me to love myself in a lot of ways because of the stresses of being a dad. Travis Hawkley [00:29:55]: It's hard to be a dad. You're worried not only about providing for your family. You're worried about, am I connecting with my kids? Am I being a good dad? Am I being a good husband? Am I being everything that I need to be a good provider? There's so much stress around being a dad. Loving yourself can be really, really tough. But giving yourself that love and that curiosity towards yourself too, finding the things that you want to do that you find to be interesting. For a really long time, I was just focused on providing a paycheck for my family, and that was solid. Every dad wants to be able to do that. It was harming my mental health in a lot of ways. Travis Hawkley [00:30:33]: And so I recently, within the last year, have started my own business as a life transition coach, helping people to do that, which is directly born from my experience as an educator, as a teacher. I'd already been doing that. And so taking that upon myself and realizing this was going to be not as lucrative right at the beginning, but was going to be more fulfilling has helped me to be a better provider still, has helped me to be a better dad, has helped me to be just a better person. So, anyway, tying that all back into the idea of love wastefully. It's not something that's in limited supply. We can love our kids with as much as we have. There's nothing you're not gonna run out. You're not gonna run out of love. Travis Hawkley [00:31:15]: Give it all and love them and and love everyone around you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:18]: Great way to end the show today, and I really appreciate you being here. If people wanna find out more about you, where is the best place for them to go? Travis Hawkley [00:31:24]: So I am the only, to my knowledge, Travis Hockley in the world. So you can find me pretty easily. Google my name, and I should show up on Facebook and Instagram. I will have a website here in the not so distant future, but I don't have it yet. But those are probably the 2 best places to find me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:41]: Well, Travis, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best. Travis Hawkley [00:31:46]: Awesome. Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it. This has been great. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:49]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:47]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.

Parenthood is often described as a roller coaster ride, filled with ups, downs, and unexpected turns. For many fathers, this journey involves a continual process of learning, growth, and adaptation. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we spoke with Thomas Batchelor, an operations and maintenance electrician for Shell Energy Australia and the father of two sons. The conversation touched on various aspects of fatherhood, from the initial challenges to the changing gender roles and the importance of self-care and support. The Long Marathon: Early Challenges in Fatherhood When Thomas Batchelor first discovered he was going to be a father, he approached the situation with confidence. However, reality quickly set in. "I thought I'd have it all under control," Batchelor reflected. "But it was far from the truth." Like many new parents, Thomas faced significant hurdles, including a newborn who had difficulty sleeping. The initial months were a humbling experience that forced him to adjust his expectations and learn on the go. "I learned pretty quickly that it's not a sprint. It's going to be a marathon-type process," Batchelor said. "Settle in because the life that you knew before has changed, and you have to adjust to the new life that you've got now." This early period was characterized by significant personal growth, teaching Batchelor to look inward and adopt a more grounded approach in both his personal life and in fatherhood. Shifting Gender Roles and the Importance of Teamwork Batchelor highlighted how traditional gender roles have shifted in contemporary parenting. He took a year off work to stay at home and support his wife's career aspirations, showcasing the importance of teamwork in managing family responsibilities. Initially, he struggled to comprehend the "mental load" that his wife carried daily. This refers to the myriad of small, yet significant, tasks that ensure a household runs smoothly. "About 2 or 3 months in, I thought I was doing a great job, but my wife said I needed to start thinking for myself now," Batchelor explained. It was a steep learning curve that took almost a year to fully grasp. Understanding and acknowledging these unseen aspects of parental responsibility not only strengthened his relationship with his wife but also allowed him to contribute more effectively at home. Building a Support Network One of Batchelor's key points was the importance of seeking and having a support network. Fatherhood can be a lonely journey, often described as the "lone wolf syndrome." He strongly believes that vulnerability and asking for help are crucial for personal well-being. Batchelor participated in a retreat called the Good Blokes Society, which acted as an "adult rite of passage" and enabled him to share his struggles with like-minded men.  "Without that, that was the start of my journey. And then I sat with it, and it was really raw and tough for me to do, but I left there and continued to gain momentum."  His experience illustrates that community and mutual support are essential in navigating the complexities of fatherhood. Self-Care and Sustainable Fatherhood Adopting an effective self-care routine emerged as another critical piece of Batchelor's journey. From regular exercise and a balanced diet to seeking professional psychological help, Batchelor emphasizes that self-care enables him to be a better father. "I've got to make sure that I'm getting to bed at a decent time, eating a pretty good diet, exercising regularly, and speaking to a psychologist," he said. "If I do that, then I feel like I'm in the place where I need to be." By managing his well-being, Batchelor ensures that he can fully engage with and support his family. Thomas Batchelor's story is a resonant example of modern fatherhood's challenges and triumphs. His journey offers essential insights into the importance of adaptability, shifting gender roles, and self-care. Batchelor underscores that vulnerability and a strong support network are indispensable elements for any father striving to be the best they can be. As society continues to evolve, his experiences will undoubtedly inspire other dads to navigate their unique journeys with resilience and empathy. For more on Thomas Batchelor's journey and other inspiring stories, tune into the Dads with Daughters podcast. Fathers seeking support can also explore resources offered by Fathering Together.   TRANSCRIPT Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Every week. I love being able to talk to you, to walk with you, to be here in solidarity, together, talking about fatherhood, working through the journey that we're both on in raising our kids. And I say it's a journey because it truly is a journey. It is a journey that each of us goes on every day and we are going to be learning something every day, learning something about ourselves, learning something about the, the person that we are, the person that we're becoming, but also learning about our kids, what they're becoming. And we then have to pivot. We have to adjust. We have to learn to be able to be the best dads that we wanna be. Christopher Lewis [00:01:06]: And that's important. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to be able to be that resource for you, to help you along that journey. And I'll be honest, as I've gone through this with you, I've learned so much from all of you, but I've also learned so much from all the guests that we've had on the show. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads that have had different experiences, that can share those experiences with you so that you can learn, you can grow, and you can be able to take things from their own experience, put it into your own toolbox, and help you along the way. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Thomas Batchelor is with us. And Thomas is a operations and maintenance electrician for Shell Energy Australia, but he's also, more importantly, a father of 2. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: We're going to be talking about his own journey in being a father to his sons, but also some of the things that he went through in this journey to be able to be present, be engaged, and be there for his sons as they were growing and also some of the things that he learned along the way. So I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share his journey with you. Thomas, thanks so much for being here today. Thomas Batchelor [00:02:20]: Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me. Christopher Lewis [00:02:21]: It is my pleasure. I love being able to talk to different dads with different experiences. And first 1st and foremost, one of the things that I love being able to do in our conversations is turn the clock back in time and you've got 2 sons. So I want to go all the way back. Go back to that first moment when you found out that you were going to be a father to a son. What was going through your head? Thomas Batchelor [00:02:40]: I thought I'd have it all under control. I thought, yeah, I've got my head around this and my kid will fit into my life, but it was far from the truth. And I learned pretty quickly that it's not a sprint. It's going to be a marathon type process and settle in because the life that you knew before has changed and you have to adjust to the new life that you've got now. And I think I did struggle with that. Christopher Lewis [00:03:04]: So talk to me a little bit about that because as you said, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon and you have to kind of learn along the way. And you've got 2 sons now, so there's definite learning that goes on there from child 1 to child 2. So So what were some of the first things that you really had to learn for yourself that really helped you to start that journey, but also to be able to transcend those first moments of being, let's say, a little bit trepidatious, a little bit concerned, and be able to get into the groove of fatherhood for yourself. Thomas Batchelor [00:03:37]: Yeah. I think going into it, I probably thought I had a sense of arrogance that I was I was across it all, and I wasn't gonna be any different to any of the other parents who were, you know, I'm gonna do it on my terms. And that didn't happen. We had a child who didn't wanna sleep. He was a challenging baby. Didn't wanna sleep. It was a real challenge, and it's been very humbling. And I'd say that the man I've become today and continue to keep growing is because of the challenges of having, I think, a difficult child. I think it's really helped me to just become more grounded and look more inwardly. And I've had such growth because of the challenges. I'm happy for that. Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]: You know, all of us go through challenges in different ways. Some of it goes into the type of child that you have and the the things that they push you into, but then there are challenges at times when internally you have to fight your own demons of the way that you were raised into figuring out the way that you wanna raise your own children. So each of us fights those pressures and that connection and that dichotomy that happens when you become a parent. So talk to me about that challenge for yourself and what you had to do to to be able to transcend and move beyond the initial challenge. And let's say it is the nonsleeping. I remember that. I had a child just like that. You, especially after, you know, 6 months, a year of that happening, you're walking around like a zombie and you you don't know which end is up and it impacts your relationships. Christopher Lewis [00:05:03]: It impacts everything. So talk to me about going through that, but also transcending that to be able to push through it, but to be able to also learn from it to help you to be the dad that you wanted to be now. Thomas Batchelor [00:05:16]: So I sort of just got my head down really. I thought to myself, if I can try and do as much as I can so I would try and do as much as I could to try and support my wife with the wake ups so she could have a better day. I had Oscar at home as my oldest boy. And I just continued to keep putting my head down. But then I was also trying to mesh in this social life as well. So I thought I could still go out with my mates. I thought I could still go and do all these things that I wanted to do, but still be able to be this supportive husband and the father that I wanted to be and I couldn't do it all. And that became quite an overwhelming thing and I had to really I'm a people pleaser and I had to really make sure that I now I probably only just got to the grips in the last couple of years that, you know, you have to say no to things and you have to make sacrifices because you have to get your priorities straight. Thomas Batchelor [00:06:06]: And I did bottom out, I'd say about 3 years ago. So I just ran out of steam really and the kids would have never have known. I was just doing what I had to do to get through but I wasn't enjoying the process. I wasn't present. I was making sure that I was doing the things I had to do as a father, but I wasn't enjoying it. It just wasn't an enjoyable experience. And I bottomed out, and I started becoming involved in groups of of particularly men who I would who I went away with. It was almost like an adult rite of passage. Thomas Batchelor [00:06:36]: I would go away and I'll speak about some of the challenges, obviously, throughout the course of my life and then obviously how it's impacting me as a father now and just really unpacking that. Just having more people to talk to, you know, more people to speak to who are also going through different struggles and just getting it out there. And that really helped me to put things into perspective and and know that I'm not alone. I don't know if you've heard the term the lone wolf syndrome. So that was something I idea. I just got my head down and I would go to the beach at 5 AM in the morning in winter and and run on the beach. I really hammered exercise to a point where it was unhealthy. And just to try and feel something, to try and, you know, get up before the kids got up. Thomas Batchelor [00:07:16]: I just burnt out. I just couldn't do anymore. And I feel like there's just been different phases of my life where I've had to lean into certain things by slowing things down and then speeding things up at time to try and get to where I need to be. And I feel like I'm really there now. I'm in a really good spot now. I'm actually starting to enjoy my time with my boys. And I'm really grateful for that because, I mean, I don't know how long I could have gone on for. I mean, I didn't wanna get to when the kids were 10, 11, 12 and go far out the whole time. Thomas Batchelor [00:07:44]: I've just been a servant, you know, and I haven't enjoyed the process. This is more it's about being a parent. So I'm grateful for where I am now. And it's it's a lot of hard work, but grateful for where I am now. So Christopher Lewis [00:07:55]: let's rewind a little bit because this process that you went through and this journey that you were on, it sounds like a roller coaster in regards to the highs and the lows and what you were pushing yourself to try to accomplish, but you weren't accomplishing. So you've gotten to a point now where you feel like you're in a good spot, but you had to have gone through some healing in some aspect. You had to have gone through some aspect to challenge yourself, to push you in a different direction. What did you have to do to be able to get off of that roller coaster? What did you have to do to be able to get on this new path that you were on? Because there are going to be dads that are listening right now that are on that roller coaster. They hear they heard what you just said and said, I feel that way right now, but I don't know how to get off. I don't know how to start on this different journey. Thomas Batchelor [00:08:47]: I think just submitting to where you're at and then asking for help. I think asking for help is the biggest thing. So getting the right people around you who can support you. And if that's not your close circle of friends because you're not there yet, I wasn't there yet. So you think about the people that you went to school with, the people that you work with, your family, you might not feel comfortable going to these people. And I do think that comes back to an upbringing thing and I raise my kids now to speak about their emotions and if they're feeling a certain way we really unpack it. I don't feel that was ever there for me as a child. So I feel like my child's emotional intelligence was actually better or as good as mine as a person who was in their mid thirties. Thomas Batchelor [00:09:30]: My boy at the time was 5, and his emotional intelligence is is really good. He can tell me how he's he's feeling, and, I mean, I couldn't do that as an adult. So I think you have to put your ego aside. You have to really be vulnerable. Vulnerable is probably the biggest word. And then you have to lean into there's plenty of support groups out there. So I went on a retreat with a guy called Mike Dyson, and he ran a retreat called the Good Blokes Retreat. So it was a bunch of like minded men, and we went away for a weekend. Thomas Batchelor [00:09:58]: It was all facilitated, catered for. It was in a beautiful part of Western Australia down the south region, and it was winter, and we just had real conversations. So I just get tingles running through my body now speaking about it because without that, that was the start of my journey. And then I sat with it, and it was really raw and it was tough for me to do, but I left there and I'm like, you know what? It just continued to gain momentum. And from that point on then I leant into other circles. So I spoke to my work colleagues. I spoke to my family. I spoke to the guys I went to school with and played sport with. Thomas Batchelor [00:10:35]: And then from that point on it was all out there and I basically said I can't and don't want to do this all on my own. You know, I want to be able to have the support of my friends and family to enjoy this process as much as possible. And the more that I lean into vulnerability, the more I look at my wife and my kids and feel that connection and that love because it works. It simply works. Yes. I don't know really what more to add to that, but it's been a journey and I'm happy that I'm here now. Christopher Lewis [00:11:03]: Now you and I were connected through Sarah McConachay, who Sarah wrote a book that you were a part of, that you contributed a chapter to. And in that chapter, you talk about a number of the things that you've already talked about already. And I think one of the things that I found really interesting was you talked a little bit about the fact that you mentioned in what you wrote that following instructions and helping out wasn't enough to handle the mental load at home. Can you elaborate on what you meant by the mental load and how you came to understand its impact on you and on your family dynamics? Thomas Batchelor [00:11:42]: Yeah. So I'd probably just take it back a little bit. During probably my lowest time, it was sort of when COVID hit. My wife was really busy at work and she's always thinking 2 steps ahead. You know, what's for dinner tonight? What's for dinner tomorrow night? Putting on washing. Just constantly thinking, kids' birthday parties. There's constantly things that I feel like in my relationship that the mom and the working mom has to think about so many more things. I don't know whether it's a male default setting because evolution has brought us to this point. Thomas Batchelor [00:12:11]: I do think that men are probably having to do more outside of their comfort zone now than ever, and maybe that's an to sit with our evolution for a little bit so our kids can see it, and then we can then take on some of that more of that mental load of all the things that the women talk about. So COVID came along. It was really tough for me, but my wife obviously continued to work and continued to do the home stuff. And I would do the home stuff. Don't get me wrong. I would I would help out and do as much as I could. After COVID, we said, right. We need we need to sort of slow things down here. Thomas Batchelor [00:12:41]: So my wife took a year off of study break. She went back and and studied her master's. And then she said, look, I'm going to start applying for jobs. And if I land a job as a in an executive position, then, you know, maybe I'll wind back at work and I'll have the year off to adjust. And then from that point on, we'll assess it. And I felt like I was a lot more comfortable being at home with the pace of home than sort of going to work and then having to adjust back to the pace of home. So I said, alright. So my wife ended up landing this position at at a at her work or she she applied for this position and got it. Thomas Batchelor [00:13:18]: And then I asked my work if I could have 12 months off work, and and they said yes, which was which was amazing. And then it was a steep learning curve. So this is where the mental load comes in. So the 1st 2 or 3 months, I remember thinking I was going along okay. And I went out for dinner with my wife about 2 or 3 months in. I said, look, how am I going? And she sort of looked at me and she was a bit reluctant to give me an answer. And I sort of said, what do you mean? She said, look, I just need you to start thinking for yourself now. You need to start thinking about what needs to be done versus what I tell you that needs to be done. Thomas Batchelor [00:13:51]: And so obviously it was a bit of a shock, but looking back now, she was correct. And it really took the full year, I think by about the 9 month mark, where I was like really gaining some steam then. I was thinking about, again, it was not for dinner tonight but for the next night, putting a load of washing on, making sure that things are away, just small things. So that's when I think I really became a benefit at home is when I could actually start to remove some of the mental load that my wife had. And I do think there's a lot of other women out there who have similar experiences. But it's I don't think it's a I didn't do it on purpose, but I'm a base now compared to where I was a year ago in regards to how I go about things at home. Christopher Lewis [00:14:36]: So as you think back to that and you think at the future, so you were talking about gender roles and how those changed in that period of time for you and your family. So how have gender roles and expectations evolved for you in your parenting? And how did you and your wife navigate them beyond that period? And how do you navigate them now? And what advice would you give to other families that are trying to find that balance? Thomas Batchelor [00:15:01]: I've always been a big supporter of my wife. So I've been with my partner since I was 16. We were both going to school together, and I've always been a big supporter of her. And she's very smart, and I've always thought that some of my life's work would be really supporting her in in being the best that she can be. I mean, I really thrive in seeing people that I love around me do well in life. I celebrate other people's victories, and my wife's one of them. So I think going into it, I was probably going into it with a bit of, I'll just I'm going to support my wife, but I really didn't think about all of the things that had to be done at at home and it was a challenge. And I'd say you just have to keep communicating with your partner and just gotta keep communicating and making sure that you're on the same page and you're both pulling in the same direction. Thomas Batchelor [00:15:48]: And the more, like anything with any job or any type of task, the more that you do it, the better that you become at it. And then the more that you can then focus on other things that you want to in life. Christopher Lewis [00:15:58]: In raising 2 sons, especially now in what you've learned yourself about gender roles, about the changing gender roles in family dynamics right now, how does that adjust the way that you think as a father? How does that adjust the way that you parent your sons as they grow into a world that will be even more different as they get into adulthood? Thomas Batchelor [00:16:24]: I've never really thought about the stereotypes as such that man does this, woman does that. I've never been that type of person. I think it'll be great to see in the future my boys of how they probably view it. It will be interesting. I think we're probably at this biggest change in a gender equality or gender stereotype roles more than ever. I do think that it will become the norm, I think, over the next 10, 20, 30 years. I think the numbers are still low. I think the numbers are still very low of men that stay stay home, but it is gaining traction. Thomas Batchelor [00:16:57]: But it's a hard job at home. It is a challenging job, but I think it's going to be great to see that, yeah, mom and dad are both capable of doing whatever they want in life. Christopher Lewis [00:17:05]: Now you mentioned the fact that you had an employer that was supportive of this journey that you went on to be able to be engaged at home and also support your partner in the new endeavors that she was endeavoring on. And not every business has done that or will do that. How important do you think it is for workplace policies and support systems to be put into place for families, for fathers, for parents in general to allow for them to have that work life balance that you talked about? Thomas Batchelor [00:17:42]: Very important. That year off really helped me to adjust. I think if I did it in a part time capacity, I think it would have been a real struggle for me. I think I need that year off to be able to, fully commit to the role, and then now I've adjusted back to 2 days a week. But, I mean, I was there for 12 years before I went on that year. So I've got a a wealth of knowledge, at the power station where I work, and I think it would be not wise to let a lot of that knowledge go. I mean, I feel like I fit really well in with my team and I'm a good team player. I'll help as much as I can where I can, but I do feel like leading into that year, I was having quite a lot of personal leave in regards to this appointment, that appointment. Thomas Batchelor [00:18:24]: And so now I'm back 2 days a week, work Monday Tuesday, and then a lot of those appointments are scheduled for Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So I think for the employer, I think it's actually a really good idea because now I'm not impacting the business as much with some of the commitments that I have to with my kids. And I do feel like women probably get a roar end of the deal when it comes to this part time type scenario. My wife tried to work a part time, but it's it's full time work. I mean, they're having to jam a full time job into a part time capacity. I think we've got a long way to go there in regards to the working mum. And I still feel like there's probably with the men, it seems more attractive that a man would stay home and and have the time off, whether I think the women probably get held back a little bit more. I I do think it's we have to do more to support, I think, working mums in the workplace who work in a part time capacity. Thomas Batchelor [00:19:16]: So I feel like a lot of the stories out there out here is that the moms are having to do a full time load in a part time case, which is I don't think is fair. Christopher Lewis [00:19:24]: Now a number of the things that you talked about really revolve around that you've gotten to a point where you've identified for yourself the things that you need to be able to do to take care of yourself, but also your family. So I saw this in the piece that you wrote, but also in what you've said that there is a importance that you've placed on self care and communication that seems to be following you now and into the future. Could you share an example for me of how you've incorporated the self care now for yourself in this next phase of your journey of fatherhood and how you hope that that will help you to be able to be an even better father in the future? Thomas Batchelor [00:20:05]: Again, just getting my priorities straight. So making sure that I'm not saying yes to things that aren't serving me. I don't go out as much as I like to go out for a beer now and again, but I don't push it. So I'm not the guy who who comes home. I haven't got anything against people who want to come home late or they can do these things. If they can fit it all in, they can do it. I just can't do it. So I've got to make sure that I'm getting to bed at a decent time. Thomas Batchelor [00:20:28]: I'm eating a pretty good diet. I'm exercising regularly. I'm speaking to a psychologist. Just reaching out. I mean, just doing things. I mean, I'm helping in my community. I'll say no to certain things, but I'll say yes to other things, you know, other things that align with my values. And I mean, my priority is my family. Thomas Batchelor [00:20:47]: And if anything outside of that impact my role as a dad at home, then I have to say, I still struggle to say no. I'm a person that does like to please and does like to say yes. So I've got to keep working at that. And if I do that, then I feel like I'm in the place where I need to be. Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]: Now I always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Thomas Batchelor [00:21:10]: Yep. Ready. Christopher Lewis [00:21:10]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Thomas Batchelor [00:21:12]: Growth. Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]: Now when was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father? Thomas Batchelor [00:21:18]: When I started getting full night sleeps. Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]: I remember those times. Now, if I was to talk to your boys, how would they describe you as a dad? Thomas Batchelor [00:21:26]: I would like to say that they think I'm funny, that I'm active, that I'm very supportive of their journey, that they feel safe. I do feel the love and affection from my boys. So I'd like to think that they would think I'm doing a okay job. Christopher Lewis [00:21:41]: 10 years from now, what do you want them to say? Thomas Batchelor [00:21:43]: I want them to be able to come to me if they have something going on in their life and say, dad, I need help. And if it's not from me, it has to be from another good man. I do feel like my role as a father is to shepherd them through life and to try and open up as many doors as I can. And if some of those doors they don't want to explore, that's fine. But I really do want to feel like that they can, when they have those bumps along their journey, that they can either speak to me or men like me. Christopher Lewis [00:22:12]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Thomas Batchelor [00:22:14]: Other dads. I say just other dads. Other dads who are going through the same things that I'm going through. I walk through the school grounds and I see the way that dads interact with their kids and that inspires me. I really like seeing that. Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for people to definitely consider and think about and see how they can incorporate that into their lives. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad? Thomas Batchelor [00:22:38]: Just be vulnerable. Speak about the challenges. Just try and be vulnerable. And that's all I can really say. Just be vulnerable. If you can be vulnerable and open and honest about where you're at, then I think most things will flow there. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: Now, Thomas, I mentioned that you are a part of Sarah McConachie's book. We'll put a link in the notes today so people can read your story and check that out. If people want to find out any more about you, is there a best place for them to go? Thomas Batchelor [00:23:02]: I suppose you could go to LinkedIn or I have got a Facebook account. I'm quite new to all this, so I've enjoyed it. So I don't really have anything else. I'd say probably just reach out to me, and if you want any more of my journey or any of the support groups or just to chat, then I'm always welcome to have a chat with someone who's struggling or just needs a ear to listen. Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]: Well, Thomas, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey, the highs and the lows, and I truly wish you all the best. Thomas Batchelor [00:23:31]: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. Christopher Lewis [00:23:32]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential source for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week. All geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. The world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Welcome to another enriching season of the Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast! As we kick off Season 11, hosts Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis dive deep into the past, present, and future of student affairs, offering a robust discussion designed to resonate with everyone from seasoned experts to fresh-faced professionals stepping into the field for the first time. This season, aptly timed as we approach fall 2024, promises to unravel layers of insight by unpacking critical themes and interviewing diverse voices within higher education. A Summer to Reflect Dr. Jill Creighton opens by setting the stage for what promises to be an impactful season. “This break between season 10 and season 11 has gone by at a blink,” notes Dr. Christopher Lewis, encapsulating the whirlwind that is summer in academia. The warm months are a brief yet essential time for rest, reflection, and preparation — particularly relevant for professionals in student affairs who anticipate the fall with a mixture of excitement and, often, trepidation. As campuses spring back to life, it's a period of rejuvenation and readiness, laying the groundwork for the academic adventures to follow. Election Year Dynamics As Dr. Creighton mentions, “Anytime we have an election year in the US, it changes the work that we do.” The intersection of politics and education makes for a tumultuous landscape. Political outcomes affect campus climates, funding, and overall student wellbeing. It impacts not just the professionals within student affairs but also the students they serve. Dr. Lewis reflects on this, acknowledging the complexity that comes with trying to create a smooth transition for new and returning students amid political unrest. The 2024 election year, therefore, is expected to bring unique challenges and opportunities. How campuses handle political discourse and maintain inclusivity will be key areas of focus. Whether it involves navigating conversations about policy impacts or ensuring that marginalized voices are heard, student affairs professionals have a pivotal role in steering the educational experience during such crucial times. Exploring the Past, Present, and Future For Seasons 11 and 12, the podcast is taking a thematic approach, concentrating on the past, present, and future of student affairs. This strategic focus builds upon the success of previous seasons that examined transitions in the industry. By honing in on this comprehensive tripartite theme, the podcast aims to paint a holistic picture of where student affairs has been, where it stands today, and where it's headed. Each guest will be challenged to answer three fundamental questions about the past, present, and future of student affairs. These discussions will not only highlight individual professional areas of expertise but will also address broader functional areas and trends. Expect rich dialogue on how historical contexts have shaped current practices and how emerging trends are set to redefine the student affairs landscape. Diverse Voices Across Career Stages One of the notable features of this season is its commitment to inclusivity in terms of career stages. As Dr. Creighton points out, the goal is to engage voices from all walks of professional life. Whether you're a retiree offering seasoned wisdom, a first-year professional with fresh insights, a grad student bringing academic rigor, or a mid-level professional balancing day-to-day operations, your story is valuable. Listeners are encouraged to contribute by recommending others or volunteering themselves to be part of this dynamic discourse. The podcast team is eager to feature a mosaic of perspectives, illustrating the diverse tapestry of experiences that comprise student affairs today. As we embark on this new season, the *Student Affairs Voices from the Field* podcast stands as a beacon for thoughtful conversation and professional development. From examining the impact of political climates on campuses to exploring the evolution of student affairs, this season sets the stage for an exciting journey through the myriad aspects of higher education. We invite you to listen, engage, and reflect as we unravel the past, present, and future of student affairs together. For those interested in contributing to the season, send your recommendations to savoices@naspa.org. Whether you're a novice or a veteran in the field, your voice matters and can profoundly impact the broader student affairs community. Catch the latest episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and don't forget to leave a review to help others discover this invaluable resource. Here's to another season of learning and growing together!   TRANSCRIPTION Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. Be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Chris, we've hit fall 2024. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:29]: It's amazing. This break between season 10 and season 11 has gone by at a blink, and it has been a really quick summer. I'm glad that we're hitting the fall and we're really getting ready, not only for a new season, but a new fall with new students and just really excited about it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: I'm starting to see move in pictures for our profession. We're all headed for our next adventure around the academic calendar. And I think student affairs as a profession might be in for a little bit of a ride this fall. I think anytime we have an election year in the US, it changes the work that we do. So I'm definitely thinking about all of our colleagues out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: Definitely hear you in that regard. I feel for the people that are not only parents that are moving their kids in for the first time or second time or third time, but for all of us as professionals that are working to make that smooth and make it a seamless transition for all of our students. But you're right. It can definitely be a very tumultuous few months as we go through this election and whatever the outcome is going to be and how that politically is going to impact how our campuses run, how it impacts our students, and more. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:48]: With all of those impacts, as we thought about what we wanted to look at for what is now season 11, if you can believe it, of essay voices from the field. We really began reflecting on how our last seasons of 9 and 10 on transitions. It felt pretty successful for us in looking at a whole season arc on one theme. Gave us a way to focus in on what was going on. And so we're gonna try it again for seasons 11 and 12. We're gonna be looking at the past, present, and future of student affairs. And I really can't think of a better time to be doing that than right now. And so this year, kind of going back to our season on becoming, we're gonna be asking each of our guests 3 questions. 1 about the past of student affairs, one about the present, and one about the future. So in addition to learning about their professional areas of expertise, their functional areas, the work that they're doing on their campuses, and the messages they have for all of us. I really look forward to hearing their thoughts on that topic. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:45]: You know, I'm really looking forward to it as well. And I think there's going to be a wide array of individuals that have some really interesting things to say. We have some names that we're already looking at. We're excited about the people that are going to be joining us over the next year, and all this are out there. If there are people that you feel that really should be a part of this season that have compelling stories or have something that that you feel that could really add to the discourse about the past, present, and future of our profession, we'd love to hear from you. Send us an email at savoices@naspa.org. And we would love to be able to get your names that you're submitting in, whether it's you, whether it's someone else. Let us know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]: And when we talk about past, present, and future voices, we're also looking at where you are in the tenure in your career. If you're retired, we wanna hear from you. If you are in your very first year, we wanna hear from you. If you're a grad student, we especially wanna hear from you. And if you're a mid level professional making it work day in and day out, we wanna hear from you. So please reach out. We'd love to feature your voice on the show for season 112 on the past, present, and future of student affairs. See you very soon. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at savoices@naspa.org, or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:40]: This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Parenting is a journey filled with highs, lows, challenges, and joys, especially when raising daughters in today's complex world. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast we were joined by Evan Porter, founder of the popular parenting blog Dad Fixes Everything and author of the newly released book Dad Camp. He shared his fears and triumphs of being a father, the transition from blogging to writing a novel, and the importance of balancing personal identity with being an engaged parent. The Emotional Rollercoaster of Fatherhood From the moment he discovered he was going to become a father, Evan Porter experienced a whirlwind of emotions. Joy, excitement, fear, and self-doubt all mingled as he stepped into the role of parenting two daughters. Describing his initial reaction, Evan reflected, "It's a blend of having wanted that and planned for that... but also this moment of, 'Oh my god. It's really happening.'" Porter was candid about the inherent fears tied to raising daughters. "The world is a very scary place for girls and for women," he shared, articulating a concern many fathers share. While the desire to shield his daughters from every possible harm loomed large, he acknowledged the reality that some things inevitably lie beyond parental control. Understanding Individuality in Parenting Evan's experience of parenting two daughters, each with distinct personalities, illustrates the universal truth that no two children are the same. He emphasized the necessity of tailoring his approach to fit each child's unique needs and characteristics. This challenge to understand and bond with each daughter individually is a common thread in the tapestry of fatherhood. With his eldest daughter, now nine years old, Porter finds joy in sharing more complex activities, such as teaching her solitaire and exploring new games. On the other hand, playful activities and light-hearted interactions dominate his relationship with both daughters, underscoring the importance of joy and laughter in strengthening family bonds. The Struggle of Maintaining Personal Identity One of the profound topics discussed was the struggle parents face in maintaining their personal identity amidst the demands of parenthood. Porter acknowledged a significant challenge: "Losing sight... of who you are outside of being a father." He articulated the struggle many modern dads encounter—the balancing act of hands-on parenting while trying to retain a piece of their pre-parenthood identity. This theme of identity loss and the quest to reclaim it runs through his novel, Dad Camp. Written during the COVID-19 lockdown, the book explores a father's journey to rediscover himself while navigating the ups and downs of parenthood. Through fiction, Porter was able to articulate the complex emotions and experiences common to many parents. The Transition from Blogging to Novel Writing Porter's journey from running the blog Dad Fixes Everything to writing Dad Camp highlights an evolution in understanding and expressing the parenting experience. His blog began as an informative resource, answering practical queries new parents often face. However, novel writing allowed him to delve deeper into the emotional and psychological aspects of parenthood.  Inspired by his experiences and a need for creative expression during the pandemic, Porter found novel writing to be both a cathartic and fulfilling endeavor. The transition allowed him to address the theme of identity from a broader perspective, capturing the essence of fatherhood with authenticity and nuance. Celebrating Dads in Fiction Porter's primary goal in his novel was to offer a relatable and affirming portrayal of modern fathers. He noted that the stereotypical image of the lazy sitcom dad still lingers, overshadowing the dedication and involvement most dads exhibit today. By creating a diverse ensemble of father characters, he hopes to celebrate the multifaceted nature of fatherhood and provide representation that resonates with real-life dads. As he continues to promote Dad Camp, Porter is already crafting his next literary work, aimed at exploring similar themes of parenthood and identity. His journey as an author and a father is a testament to the continuous evolution and reflection that parenthood demands. Through his writing, Porter hopes to inspire other parents to embrace the complexities and joys of raising children, recognizing the importance of presence, identity, and connection. In the end, as Evan poignantly observed, "You don't want to miss out on the hard stuff... It's not fun, but you're gonna remember that and you're gonna wanna have those memories." This candid advice encapsulates the heart of parenting—cherishing the moments, however challenging, and appreciating the journey shared with our children. You can follow Evan Porter on Instagram and learn more about his work on his website.   TRANSCRIPT Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to dads with daughters, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you, to walk alongside with you, and to be able to learn alongside you in regards to this journey that we're on in regard to raising our daughters. I know that I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. None of us are perfect when it comes to being a father, but being a father to a daughter as well. We are always going to have a little bit of gap in between the understanding of their experience as individuals, there's always going to be a little bit of a gap when it comes to the way that we think they think and we can always do something we can always do something daily, to be able to better engage to be able to better bother our daughters. And that's what this podcast is all about. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you to add some tools to your toolbox and to allow for you to be able to to learn, to grow, and to take some things along the way that will help you to be that dad that you wanna be. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that with those different experiences. And today, we got another great guest. Today we've got another great guest with us. Evan Porter is with us. And he is the founder of the popular parenting blog, Dad Fixes Everything and author of the new book called Dad Camp. Really excited to be able to have him on today to talk about his own journey as being a father of 2 daughters, and to talk a little bit more about his book and what he's learned along the way. Evan, thanks so much for being here today. Evan Porter [00:02:00]: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, what a great fit. Dads with Daughters is a perfect tie in for the book, and I'm sure we'll get into it.  Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: I am excited to have you here today. And first and foremost, 1 of the things that I love to do is I love having the power to turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back in time. And I know you got 2 daughters. So I wanna go all the way back to the beginning. When you first found out that you're going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head? Evan Porter [00:02:23]: Oh, wow. I think there's a blend of 1 have you know, having wanted that and planned for that and been trying for that, but also this moment, like, oh my god. It's really happening. Like, it's happening so soon. It's happening so fast. Both of both ends of that spectrum of emotion of being so excited that you got what you wanted and you got what you had planned for, but also being like, woah. Wait. Wait. Evan Porter [00:02:40]: Wait. I'm not so sure I'm ready. Yeah. You know? Can we can we slow it down a little bit? But then, you know, kinda that gives just just gives way to the excitement of, you know, just really looking forward to to that next chapter. And, you know, I've always wanted to be a dad and that was really You know, I talked to a lot of dads of daughters that talk about the fact that it's a little scary, not only to be a father, but to be a father to a daughter, especially at the beginning as you're kind of fumbling a little bit and trying to figure out kind of those first steps and trying to figure out what does it mean to be a dad, to a daughter. Christopher Lewis As you look at the years that you've had thus far with your daughters, what would you say has been your biggest fear or is your biggest fear in raising daughters? Evan Porter [00:03:15]: I think that the world is a very scary place for girls and for women. And I think that's 1 of, like, the biggest things that I worry about is there's only so much I can do to to keep them safe. And I can teach them, and I can protect them as much as I can. But it is a scary world out there for women and for girls, and it's harder on them in in so many ways. And part of me wanted the opportunity to have a boy at some point just to put another good man out into the world and make the world a little bit of a better place in that regard too. And so not feeling like I have any control over that, I think, is is really challenging. It gives me nightmares. Christopher Lewis [00:03:45]: Now you do have 2 daughters and anytime you add more than 1 to the mix, you've gotta figure things out in a whole different way. I know in my own experience, both my daughters have very different personalities, and I've had to really work hard to be able to understand them individually and build those unique bonds with each of them. So talk to me about for your 2 daughters and your own experience, what are the favorite things that you and each of your daughters love to share with each other? Evan Porter [00:04:14]: That's a great question. Yeah. They are so different. I think the nature versus nurture is settled. It's settled in my mind. I think that they are completely different people, completely different ends of many different spectrums. So that's been so, so interesting interesting to think that the way we raise them probably hasn't changed drastically from 1 to the other, but just there's these things in their brains that are wired differently and they're completely, completely different people. And so they each require kind of their own approach. And we have completely, completely different people. And so they each require kind of their own approach, and we have our own relationships. So with my oldest 1 who's 9, I mean, we just love to goof around. I think both I'd love to goof around with both of them. I love to be the silly fun dad throwing them around in the pool and flipping them in the pool. Anytime we can laugh together, playing games or just cracking jokes or making up games on the spot, I think with both of them, that's really, really effective and some of my favorite parts of of being a dad. Evan Porter [00:04:57]: My older 1 is also kind of getting into just becoming a little adult person. So you can do more complicated things with her. You teach her new things and games and teaching her, like, how to play solitaire or, like, new card games that we can play together. And so I think that's a big theme. I love to just play with them and playing them with them in different ways. And that's just the best part of being a dad. So I try to get as much out of that as possible. Parent is never easy.  Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]: There are ups, there's downs, there's positives, there's negatives, and it's always changing. What's been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter? Evan Porter [00:05:27]: I think maybe we're skipping ahead a little bit into some of the some of the book inspiration and things like that. But I think losing sight a little bit of who you are outside of being a father and being a parent because it is all consuming. And I think, like, this new generation of dads are is doing so much, and they're very hands on. They're very active and very engaged in it. The slice of the pie that is not related to your kids gets smaller and smaller and smaller. I think you, you know, you lose sight of hobbies and you it's harder to keep in touch with friends and you have less time for yourself and for the other parts of your life. And I think that's a big challenge. Even though parenting your kids is so, so rewarding, you still need that other stuff. Evan Porter [00:06:00]: And I'm always, like, trying to calibrate and find ways to, like, hold on to, like, little pieces of who I was before kids and, like, who I am outside of being just a father. So I haven't found the magic answer to that quite yet. That's 1 of that's a daily struggle and definitely something that you have to constantly work on. And there's not once you to be honest, I I would say that once you feel like you finally hit your groove, something changes and you have to adjust and change yet again. So it is ever going and ever changing and that's the 1 thing of fatherhood that's the constant is that there is no constant and that you will continuously have to make adjustments along the way. Now you kind of talked about the new book, but I wanna start first at the fact that you have a blog that you started a number of years back, called Dad Fixes Everything. And I guess first and foremost, what made you decide that you wanted to start this blog to be able to talk to other fathers or talk more about your own experiences with a larger audience? Evan Porter [00:07:03]: It was an outlet for me to practice writing and not the kind of writing that I've done in the book, but marketing and copywriting and blogging and freelance writing and journalism and kind of all these other pieces that I've done over my career and putting them to work for myself. And so I was a new parent at the time. I think my oldest daughter was around 2 or 3 when I launched it, and I was kind of finding myself with all these questions and things that I was wondering about and very like fact based things like what's the difference between, size 4 and 4 T and kids clothes? What is the difference between a mini crib and a crib and a bassinet and a rocker and a glider and, like, kind of all these, like, sort of okay. Like, I need to figure this out. And so kind of researching these things and presenting the information in a way that helped me learn and that hopefully was helpful to other people, that was kind of the inspiration behind the blog. It was just a great outlet to practice to practice writing and practice, some of those other skills that I was talking about. Christopher Lewis [00:07:55]: I am someone that also had a blog that I started back in 2007. And it kind of grew with me, in my own experiences, I know what you're talking about, and definitely have been there and have done that. And I also am an author. And I know how much time, effort, patience and more goes into a writing of a book, let alone a novel that is as large as your book is. So you went from having this blog, Dad Fixes Everything, to over the years then getting inspired to be able to write a new book, a new book that just came out just recently called Dad Camp. And I guess talk to me about that transition it from writing in a blog sense to now writing a novel that really incorporates in and brings forward a story of a father and daughters to a larger audience as well? What was the inspiration for the book? And what made you decide that you wanted to put all that time and effort into creating this? Evan Porter [00:09:03]: Feeling a little bored and a little bit stuck with the kinds of work that I was doing and wanting a new challenge. It wasn't my first time doing creative writing. I'd written, screenplays, in my early twenties. I'd done some screenwriting, and I missed writing fiction and just like writing pure creatively that wasn't informational. It wasn't for marketing. It wasn't for copywriting. It wasn't for journalism. It was just for fun and just for the experience of doing it and and for storytelling. Evan Porter [00:09:26]: And so I just wanted to revisit that again. I took many, many years off of doing that, and I think it was in that kind of COVID lockdown time when I was really cooped up and really feeling stale and stuck and just needing a spark, needing something that was just for me. And so there was something very meta about it because the book deals with so much with that loss of identity as a parent. And for me, writing the book was an attempt to kinda get that back a little bit. There were a couple ways.  Christopher Lewis [00:09:50]: Talk to me a little bit about that, the loss of identity, but also the interplay of fiction and nonfiction, and being able to incorporate some of your own experiences as a father in to this fictionalized account of a father with his daughters? Evan Porter [00:10:07]: Yeah. Because we touched on having trouble keeping your hobbies and staying in touch with friends and, you know, finding time to exercise or whatever it is that you like to do. And then sort of during COVID time, that was all cranked up to 11. I remember being in the house with the kids. My littlest was just a baby at the time, really doing nothing but taking care of them all day long and never really leaving the house, never seeing anybody, never never doing anything. And so that was really, really tough. And I also felt guilty, like, oh, I should be enjoying this time with my kids. Like, we're spending so much time together. Evan Porter [00:10:35]: This should be fun. Like, we should be making, like, happy memories and, like, kinda, like, dealing with that that guilt of not enjoying it more. And a lot of those ideas just kind of came out in the book and it felt like a natural thing for me to explore via fiction. And again, you know, there's that sort of meta piece where the dad in the story is going through some of those challenges as well. Of course, not in, like, the COVID environment. Chose to, like, that COVID didn't exist in this story world that I was building. But he was having those same issues losing touch with who he was before. And so I think the early drafts of the book had a lot of heart and a lot of passion and, like, kind of rawness to them because I was, like, living what I was writing about so thoroughly. Evan Porter [00:11:12]: And then, of course, the novel evolved so much from those early drafts. But, you know, a lot of the the heart of the story was there from the very beginning and was based on kinda what I was going through at that time. Christopher Lewis [00:11:20]: So as dads are reading this book or anyone that's reading this book, what are you hoping that they take out of this? And what are you hoping that they can then take from this and incorporate into their own life? Evan Porter [00:11:33]: I want dads to feel seen by the story in some way, even if they don't identify with the main character. There's a whole cast of them cast of different dads at this camp that they go to. And I tried to represent different different types of dads, I mean, different archetypes and kind of uncovering the layers of of all those characters. And I want any any parent really, but especially dads, to be able to see themselves in the story and just kind of feel validated or understood a little bit. I think it's kind of it's tough. I think the sort of ghost of the lazy sitcom dad still hangs over us heavily as a society. And it's I think dads are are really doing a good job for the most part these days and and are not always seen and not always appreciated the way that I think they could be. And I just wanna have good good representation of of dads in fiction, and I think that's what I tried to accomplish here. Evan Porter [00:12:17]: Even though each of them had their own flaws and their own challenges, I just wanted to kind of, like, have a celebration of, like, some of the good stuff too. Christopher Lewis [00:12:23]: So now this book is out into the world. And I guess as you look at the future, what is the future for you as a writer, as a father? Are there things that you really would love to be able to do to be able to take what you've done here and take it to a different level or to move in a different direction to tell different stories. What's next? Evan Porter [00:12:42]: I'm working on another book. I can't say too much about it just yet. In the middle of promoting this 1 and doing doing interviews and all the kind of stuff that I'm doing, I'm working on number 2. So I'm looking forward to being able to talk about that soon. Think it'll have some similar themes in terms of parenthood and moms and dads and all sorts of caregivers and new parents will hopefully be able to relate to it. But this whole process has been so interesting because, you know, I did it just for me and just as something that I wanted to do for myself. And now I'm getting to, like, share that with my family and my kids. I just did my first in person book event at a bookstore, like, with an inner like, a q and a with another author and a signing. Evan Porter [00:13:16]: And, you know, my daughters were sitting in the front row of the seats kinda, like, staring at me. Like so it was very, very fun to, like, be able to share this with them. And I'm going up to Baltimore in my hometown a couple weeks to do another event, and I'm bringing my oldest daughter with me, and she's gonna kinda share in that experience. It'll be a little adventure for the 2 of us. So and I'm just trying to enjoy it as much as I possibly can, and I hope my, my girls are are proud of me. Christopher Lewis [00:13:37]: So talk to me about what has been the response from your daughters, as you've read either the whole book to them, or parts of the book to them? And how does that response inspire you or push you to be able to continue that writing? Evan Porter [00:13:53]: Well, my 3 year old has no idea what's going on. Right? She knows that I wrote a book and she knows what it looks like. She's seen the cover and everything and so she could point it out. She sees it. But she just thinks it's cool that we're having parties and going to book stores and running around. My oldest it is an adult book, I should say. Some people hear the concept and they think that it's for 11 year olds to read, but it's really a fully adult book that's from the adult point of view. And so but my 9 year old thinks it's really cool and she wants to read it. Evan Porter [00:14:16]: I've let her read little snippets of it here and there. And I think she's really proud and excited. And I think that there was a quote from James Cameron that was watching his documentary about his deep sea diving. And he said something like, even more than your presence, your kids need your example. And so, yeah, I hope that they get something out of watching me kind of, like, pursue my dreams. And even if it doesn't register in the moment, maybe 1 day they'll look back on it and and be inspired by it. Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? In 1 word, what is fatherhood? Evan Porter [00:14:48]: Love is the first word that came to mind. Christopher Lewis [00:14:51]: Now, when was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a doctor? Evan Porter [00:14:57]: I'll just give you 1 that pops that pops to mind. We were at a feel like a big water slide water park place, and my oldest was scared to get on the big water slide. And I was able to give her, like, a really good fatherly pep talk and get her to work up the courage to do it. And then she was, like, really happy that she did it. And my brother was there with us, and he texted me later. And he was like, that was a great dad speech you gave her. And, he was really impressed with my ability to get her to be brave. And, yeah, that 1 stuck with me. I felt it was cool that I did it and that somebody else recognized it too. Christopher Lewis [00:15:27]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, and your 3 year old might not say much, but if I was to talk to them, how would they describe who you're dad? Evan Porter [00:15:33]: Fun and silly. You know, we talked earlier. I'd I'd, like, love to get in the pool with them and throw them around and flip them in the air and, you know, make them laugh. Like, I'll do anything to make them laugh. And that's what I live for. And so I think that's probably what they would say. Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]: In 10 years from now, what would you say? Evan Porter [00:15:47]: Remember that I was there all the time. Like, I think that I want them to know that I was always there at the swim meets and the sports games and the school play and never had to miss it for anything else. So regardless of any other way that I might let them down, down, hopefully they just remember that I was always like right there in their corner. Christopher Lewis [00:16:03]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Evan Porter [00:16:04]: It's my own dad. He passed away a number of years ago, but he was a fantastic dad, a great man, very gentle soul. And he taught me so much about being a good writer or being a good dad and being a good man. So I, you know, he's not around anymore, but Christopher Lewis [00:16:19]: Now you've shared a lot about your experiences thus far, and some of the things that you've learned along the way. As we finish up today and you think about all all dads out there, what's 1 piece of advice you'd wanna give to give to any father? Evan Porter: You don't wanna miss out on the hard stuff. It is so hard. And, know, there's this funny thing that happens. I think anytime there's a challenge or or a day or your plans don't go the way you thought they would and you're frustrated and tired and sad or whatever. Like, I feel like you always look back and appreciate it and find it funny or it's it becomes a good story or a happy memory in some way. You know, I always use this example of taking the kids to the beach. It's like so much work and it's hot and it's sandy and sometimes it feels like everybody's miserable, but then you look back and you're like, oh, we had such a nice day at the beach. For some reason, our brains are funny like that. And I think like you don't be the guy who didn't change the poopy diapers. I know it's not fun, but you're gonna remember that and you're gonna wanna like have those memories. Trust me. Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]: Now if people wanna find out more about the book, about your blog, about other things that you're doing, where's the best place where's the best Evan Porter [00:17:21]: You can follow me on Instagram where I talk a lot about the book and my my journey writing it and promoting it. That's at words by Evan Porter on Instagram. And words by Evan Porter dot com is my website where I share everything about the book and what I'm working on and all sorts of fun stuff like that. Christopher Lewis [00:17:37]: Well, Evan, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for putting this great book out into the world. Thank you. Thank you for the great questions. Have fun. If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. Christopher Lewis [00:17:58]: We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and power daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling You're the best dad you can be.

Navigating the Journey of Fatherhood Fatherhood is a complex and rewarding journey that demands a unique balance of strength, empathy, and patience. For fathers of daughters, the stakes can feel particularly high. In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosts Dr. Christopher Lewis, Michael Ramos, and Steven Manchester delve into the nuances of raising daughters, from the initial trepidation to the ongoing quest to raise strong, independent women. Embracing the Journey Together Dr. Christopher Lewis opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of community and learning from one another's experiences. "All of our journeys is a little bit different," he notes, "we can learn from each other... as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning." This sentiment sets the stage for an enlightening conversation with guests who have both navigated this journey and sought to share their wisdom with others. The Initial Fear and Responsibility When asked about their first reactions to learning they were going to be fathers to daughters, both Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos admit to feelings of terror. Such an emotional response is not uncommon; many fathers experience fear when anticipating the responsibilities of raising a daughter. Manchester explains, "I needed to do it the right way... kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch." Ramos, reflecting on his own experience, highlights the ongoing nature of parenthood: "I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the hospital... I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning." Addressing the Biggest Fears Lewis probes deeper, asking about their biggest fears. Here, Manchester articulates the weight of setting a high standard, "I want me to be the example of what she should expect." For Ramos, the sentiment is similar. He emphasizes the importance of modeling respectful behavior to set high expectations for how his daughters should be treated by others, and also how his sons should treat others. Overcoming Challenges Every parent faces challenges, but raising daughters comes with its own unique set of difficulties. Manchester likens raising boys to "playing checkers" and raising daughters to "playing chess." The complexity, he notes, requires a deeper level of empathy and understanding. Ramos concurs, describing the intricate personalities of his daughters and the importance of adapting his approach to meet each of their unique needs. Building Strong, Unique Relationships Fostering strong relationships with daughters involves more than just being present; it requires emotional vulnerability and genuine connection. Ramos shares that learning to be nurturing, sensitive, and empathetic was crucial for forging these bonds. Manchester underscores the importance of having individual relationships with each child, independent of the rest of the family. The Genesis of "The Dad Bag" The conversation then shifts to the inspiration behind The Dad Bag, a book co-authored by Manchester and Ramos. From the anxious moments of early fatherhood to the realization that parenting lacks an instruction manual, Ramos recounts his journey towards writing a guide that offered practical, heartfelt advice for new fathers. Manchester, an accomplished author, saw an opportunity to create something impactful, noting, "This book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written." Lessons from The Dad Bag The Dad Bag uses the metaphor of a "dad bag" filled with symbolic items to represent life lessons. These items serve as visual aids to reinforce critical messages, making the lessons accessible and memorable for both the father and child. The book aims to break through stereotypes and offer a new model of fatherhood defined by empathy, vulnerability, and engagement. Be There and Don't Give Up As the podcast concludes, Dr. Lewis asks for their final piece of advice to fathers. Manchester succinctly states, "Be there," while Ramos elaborates, “Don't give up. You got this." Their words resonate as a reminder that fatherhood is a journey filled with highs and lows, but with presence and perseverance, every dad can make a profound impact on their daughters' lives. For more insights and to get your copy of *The Dad Bag*, visit [Amazon](https://www.amazon.com). Fatherhood is a journey best taken together, learning and growing every step of the way. Here's to raising strong, independent women, one day at a time.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guys to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women, Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being on this journey with you, an opportunity to be able to welcome alongside you as you're working to raise those strong independent women that you want to grow up in society today. And all of our journeys is a little bit different. We're all on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other. We have an opportunity to learn from each other. And every day that we walk on this journey, there's something new that we can learn from the person next door, from the person on the other side of the earphones. It doesn't matter as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning. And that's what's important. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: And every week I work to be able to help you to meet new people, fathers or others with resources, people that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way. Every father fathers in a little bit different way. And there's a lot of resources that are out there as well. Today, we've got 2 great dads with us. Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos is with us today. They both are fathers of 4. We're gonna be talking about their journey as fathers, but also authors. We're gonna be talking about a book that they put out just recently called The Dad Bag, and we're gonna be talking about that as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:27]: So I'm really excited to have them here today and have you learn from their journeys. Steven, Michael, thanks so much for being here today. Steven Manchester [00:01:33]: Thanks for having us, Chris. Michael Ramos [00:01:34]: Thank you very much, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time because I have that power and I love to be able to have our dads do some self reflection here. And I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a daughter. What was going through your heads? Steven Manchester [00:01:52]: Tara. Absolutely, Tara. I think for me, Chris, it was a lot of weight. Right? Because I needed to do it the right way. And we've, you know, as you know, and Mike knows clearly, kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch. So from the moment we had our daughter, Isabella, I can honestly say she's made me a better person, a better man. And I've been really conscious of what I've done and the things I've said because of wanting to be that dad to her. Michael Ramos [00:02:13]: I think Steve probably echoed my exact sentiments with Tara, uncertainty. I know I figured it out. I I knew I'd figure it out eventually, and some things would be innate, but there were so many questions that I didn't have. And I think the answer is that I didn't have to questions. And I won't tell you where the dad bag came from yet, but it does directly connect to the moment that I realized, like, I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the the hospital. But I think I learned within the first few months that this was a journey and not a destination being a dad, specifically to girls, that I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning because things would always change. And that's exactly what has happened and continues to happen, even with the oldest one being 19. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:58]: Now, both of you said that your first reactions were terror. And that being said, I hear that from a lot of dads, especially dads with daughters, that there is fear, the fear going along with raising daughters. Talk to me about your biggest fear in raising a daughter. Steven Manchester [00:03:12]: It's my true belief that our job is to to raise them, right? Not keep them. So even from the time that they're young, again, it's all about setting that example, but whoever she ends up with or whoever she has contact with as far as boys or men, I want me to be the example of what she should expect, right? Like the bar should be raised very high. So for me, the tarot really comes from the weight of responsibility, right? Of getting it right. You know what I mean? And it's never gonna be perfect, we all know that. God knows I've made my fair share of mistakes, but the intentions of being conscious of the fact that listen, I need to do the best I can do so that she understands what, you know, what she deserves. Right? Michael Ramos [00:03:56]: And I think for me, it was very much the same. It's funny because I tell the story and it it applies to both my boys my boy and my girls. But, as far as Steve said, setting the bar. I always wanted my girls to know what the expectation was from the boys that would they would come in contact with. And then I wanted to be the same example for my son so he would know how to treat all of the people, and lead by example in that way. And and somebody had once shared a story, and that's where I learned this from. They shared a story once with me and they said, I want if my daughter goes out on her 1st date at whatever age it is and somebody treats her disrespectfully, I want it to be a red flag. I don't want it to be something that feels normal or feels like she's seen or experienced at home. Michael Ramos [00:04:48]: So although I think that's who I am anyways, is to be very respectful at all times. It especially made me conscious of the fact that I need to be respectful at all times in my treatment of all women, whether it was a partner, a mother, a grandmother, a sister, because that's the example that I was setting for them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:04]: And raising kids is never easy. There is definitely high points, but there is challenges, there's hard parts. Talk to me about the hardest part in raising a daughter. Steven Manchester [00:05:14]: Well, I can tell you from experience, you know, I've raised a couple sons and that was like playing checkers. And then along comes my girl and now I'm playing chess at an advanced level. So it's amazing. I mean, you almost have to become an empath in a sense where it's not just the way that you think, it's the way that you feel and trying to understand how they feel and and providing what they need. So for me, the hard part was, I guess, getting out of my way and not trying to fix everything for her. Just being able to listen and just be there for her. Michael Ramos [00:05:40]: Again, similar. It was being able to determine when I needed to listen and when I needed to solve the problem because they're very different and there will never be any instruction given. There's almost an expectation that and I said because I've had hundreds of conversations with my 2 teenage daughters where sometimes I got it right and sometimes I was listening when I should have been solving and sometimes I was solving when I should have been listening. And I think to answer the question more specifically, what's been the most difficult part for me, I think has has been learning their personalities because I feel like they're a little more deeper and complex than my boy, and I can only draw from that example. But my 3 daughters are all very different from each other. And there's an expression in psychology that they use where you peel the layers of the onion back to get what's inside, to get to what, you know, the deep root of what's inside is. And one daughter wants me to peel the onion very, very slowly over the course of 45 minutes to get to that. The other daughter wants me to smash the onion, which is more my style. Michael Ramos [00:06:45]: Get what's inside. And then the other one wants me to peel it, like, ever so slowly, then start smashing the load, then go back to peeling. You know, so I think that's been the most difficult part is trying to understand how complex and beautiful their personalities are, how unique they are, and then how I need to then respond differently, learn and grow and do things that don't feel natural to me because my personality tells me to handle everything one way, but they are very different human beings and need me to handle things differently. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]: Now you talk about the fact that every child is unique, and that's definitely the case. You can have 2 kids that you come from the same parents, and they can be completely different individuals, and we always see that. So talk to me about with your kids, especially your daughters, how have you been able to build those strong, unique relationships with each of your daughters? And what's your favorite thing that you do and share with your daughters? Michael Ramos [00:07:42]: So important to me. I think learning that it was okay to be nurturing, learning that it was okay to be sensitive, learning that it was okay to cry. And I'm not saying breakdown crying every 15 minutes throughout the day, but learning that it was okay for me to have emotions because society has dictated to me that I can only be tough, that men don't cry and that men don't have emotions and reactions like that. So I was able to connect with my daughters because I was able to be vulnerable. I was able to connect with my daughters because I knew empathy, because if I didn't know empathy, how could I understand them and be compassionate and be empathetic if I couldn't be that myself? So through a 13 week curriculum that I became a nurturing father's facilitator and worked with a lot of dads and some incarcerated dads. I learned a lot of things that later on in life where I was I was able to, to apply. But I think those things were so critical in order for me to be able to connect with them at the level that that I do where they're so comfortable. They'll talk to me about literally anything. Steven Manchester [00:08:42]: That's not gonna be easy to follow, Chris. That was fantastic. But I will just add to that and say that for me and Bella, it was just 1st and foremost just being there, making sure that she knows that I'm a vet. I don't care what it is like I'm there. And secondly, I think it's so important to have relationships with each of your kids that are independent of everybody else in the family. So there are times the whole family is doing things, and then there's times where I just go out to to lunch with my daughter. And then we talk about and it's a a relationship that I've established just between her and I, and I think that's where the trust is born and it's kind of built on. I don't ever want her to play, you know, need to feel like she used to play favorites, but it's, it's also, it's very, very important to me if you're feeling down, you'll just need to go to your mother. Steven Manchester [00:09:23]: You can come to me as well. And to Mike's point, being aware of the fact that I need to have that empathy, I need to show that empathy, and And I may not have all the answers. And even if I do, she probably doesn't wanna hear them anyway. So again, it's just being available and and, making sure she knows that I have her back, which is an odd way to put it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]: But Now I mentioned at the beginning that the 2 of you came together to write a newer book called dad bag or the dad bag. And, I guess I wanna go back before I ask you some questions about the book itself. Let's go back to the genesis of this because I know, Steve, you've been an author for many years, your style of writing is a bit different than what this is. So so talk to me about how the 2 of you came together and why you decided to come up with this concept and put it onto paper. Michael Ramos [00:10:12]: So, let me just stop by saying I just need to give a little kudos to the amazing human being, father, and friend that Steve is because Steve Manchester, I've known as an author and I've known as a friend. I don't consider myself to be an author. This was something very important to me, and he's done presentations for me and in front of dad's groups and for private agency and also some state agencies. So I knew that he would be the perfect person. Where it came from was early, you asked, the terror feeling of knowing that I was having a little girl, but also just like a child, period. I remember bringing my daughter home from the hospital and putting her on the floor in the car seat. And I was sitting in the living room by myself, and I looked down at her in the car seat, sitting there between my legs. And I said, geez, what do I do now? And I went, well, I guess I should take her out. Michael Ramos [00:10:58]: That's a stop. Let me take her out of the car seat. And I mean, I kinda knew what to do, but, like, I also didn't. So I figured it out, stumbled along over the next, like, you know, week or 2, and then the remote control broke for the TV. So I went to RadioShack for anybody under 40 who's listening. That's, an electronics saw that once was in business. But I went to RadioShack and I bought a new new remote control for the TV. I brought it home and I opened it up. Michael Ramos [00:11:27]: It was like $6.99, and it had 12 pages of instructions in 5 different languages. And I said, this remote control comes with that many pages of instructions in so many different languages. And I just brought a beautiful little human being home from the hospital with, like, no directions whatsoever, with no instruction, with no anything. And I said, gee, someone should write a book, not only just for parents to come home from, like, you know, the the hospital with, but especially dads. And that's where the dad bag came from. Steve and I had already worked together doing some fatherhood work, him mostly doing some presentations. And I was already doing nurturing fathers and also some a lot of presentations nationally. And I reached out to him and just just like that, he said, love it. Michael Ramos [00:12:14]: Love the idea. Let's do it. And I know that fatherhood is so important to him. I knew it just would be a great marriage to, get the book written. Steven Manchester [00:12:22]: I gotta tell you, it was a no brainer for me because first and foremost, I really admire Mike. The things that he's done in the community, for the state, the impact that he's had on people, how can you not get your wagon to that? So some of the themes that I've had in my writing over the last 30 years really has a lot to do with fatherhood. Mike and I are really big on there's a big difference between being a father and being a dad, and it's like kinda hammering that stuff home. I also have a background in the prison system. I worked for the Department of Correction for 10 years. So I saw guys that were leaving without a clue on how to father their children. And you think, what a tragedy, right? Because generationally, that's, you know, that's potentially, you know, absolutely awful, right? So, it made perfect sense. And when we got together Mike's concepts, we were able to flesh them out. Steven Manchester [00:13:04]: It took some time. We had to find the right illustrator in Stephanie Grassi, who's just a wonderful person as well. So this hasn't been any work at all. For me, it's been a joy. And I really think, I mean, I normally write adult novels, write 90,000 words. This book, I don't know what even it came in at, but I think this book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written. And I I'm grateful to Mike for that opportunity to be able to be a part of Michael Ramos [00:13:29]: it. Ironic. I'm more grateful to you. So that's really nice. Steven Manchester [00:13:33]: And I I do mean that sincerely, right, for the people that are listening. I think, you know, Michael will get into this a little bit too, but it's not a bad bag, but it's really I think it's for the family. I think it's for the entire family. I think it's for the dad kind of being able to help mom out or step up and and, you know, do what he's supposed to do. But in a way that what I love about this is it's really almost an instruction guide that's disguised as a children's book. So if dad's reading that to to, you know, his child and dad's also learning as well. Right? And I'm a firm believer we're all in the same boat. Right? It's just you gotta pick up a paddle and start rowing, and I think that's what this book's about. Michael Ramos [00:14:08]: There's so much data and statistics out there that prove that mom's health is increased significantly when dads are engaged. There's factors and indicators for breastfeeding that more moms breastfeed and are likely to breastfeed if they have dads engaged. And it makes sense why. And it makes sense that there's moms that are under less stress when dads are involved because dads are helping out. And we know parenting for mom or dad, because both are critically important, is very difficult if you're doing it alone. I mean, I think that's also one the things that we like to drive home is that dads really need to be engaged and involved. And the difference between being a dad and being a father is exactly that. It's not just buying a ball for your kid and saying, oh, here, I bought this ball for you. Michael Ramos [00:14:49]: And then going in the house, it's stopping to teach the rules, to play the game, to, you know, to teach kids how to self regulate. It's all of those things. And while you're doing that, mom gets a break too and vice versa. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]: Now in the book, one of the things that I noticed was that the father in the story talks about the importance of effective communication. How do you think his approach to communication differs from the conventional methods and why do you think it's effective? Michael Ramos [00:15:18]: I think it's because mostly what I was saying before about empathy and compassion and being able to look at the communication from a different perspective and not from the more conventional model. And although I I think there's been a lot of movement more recently with lots of men in this country and lots of dads. I still think there's a lot of dads that still believe that they are the disciplinary, that they shouldn't cry, that they shouldn't have emotion, that they are supposed to be strong and tough. And you can be those things too, but you can also have compassion, be empathetic, and be an engaged dad. It'd be nurturing. And I think that's the difference in the approach. That's the difference in the patience. That's probably a keyword there. Michael Ramos [00:16:02]: The patience that it takes to develop those relationships and understand that with 3 daughters, the dad in the book was specifically just the boy and the girl, but the dad in the book's ability to understand and that that's what it took in order to connect with the children and was that a level of patience to really understand them and be able to see that empathy and that compassion. Steven Manchester [00:16:24]: For me, like the communication, this book in many respects is, I think we're trying to break through some stereotypes. And when you look at a generation just prior to us, my father and his brothers and my grandparents, and it went from you to be seen and not heard to my father would listen, but empathy, I'm not sure, was at the top of the list. He was putting food on the table, shoes on your feet, and if you cry, then he didn't care for it. So for me, and I'm gonna just switch real quickly right to my sons. If my sons fell down and scraped their knee, I don't I don't want anybody crying. Right? We we talked about that. But if there's something that really hurt them and it hurt their soul, I'll sit and cry with them. And it was so, so important, like, when my parents passed, I watched my kids watching me and I didn't hold back. Steven Manchester [00:17:05]: And I also talked about it. So Mike brought up the word earlier, vulnerable, and I think that's the key here. I believe some men see things as weakness, right, when they show their feelings. For me, that's true strength. I mean, that's strength to be able to show your children, I also have feelings, I also mourn and grieve and, you know, I'm happy and I'm sad. By sharing that with your children, you also give them permission to do the same. And I think it just bonds you closer. Right? My kids are more apt to come to me because I'm not going to judge them based on their emotional reaction. Steven Manchester [00:17:33]: And I think that's one of the things I really love about this book. And Mike's concepts, even, you know, very early on from boys playing with a doll or girls asking questions, like, for me, it was like kinda let's let's just break through that and be honest. Just be vulnerable and honest. And and I think that's where the magic is in this book. Michael Ramos [00:17:49]: You know, to expand a little bit on what Steve said with a slightly different concept, it also makes me feel strong to be able to care for my my children. So, yeah, it's a it's a sign of strength, like like Steve said, to be able to be vulnerable and to be able to give your children permission to feel those feelings too. But it also makes me feel strong to change a diaper and to be able to cook food and to be able to care for my children and nurture my children because culturally and also generationally, historically in my family, that's not something that men do. Men don't change diapers. Men don't wash clothes, do laundry. They don't do any of those things. I've always seen that as a sign of weakness. It makes me feel strong to know that I can take care of myself and my children at all times if I need to. Michael Ramos [00:18:31]: It feels completely opposite to me if I have to rely on someone else to do those things because I I'm just not or I don't know how. So also, I think that's to answer your question too a little bit, that's probably a less conventional approach, but I think that's changing and I'm very happy that that's changing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]: I noticed also in the book that the book is called The Dad Bag. The father uses various items from his dad bag as symbolic representations of life lessons. Can you discuss the significance of the metaphor that you're using here and how it adds depth to the narrative? Steven Manchester [00:19:03]: I think this is very intentional, right, right from the beginning that we were gonna use a backpack called the dad bag, much like a mom would have a diaper bag. The dad has the because this book was written really for for families and and children from, you know, because this book was written really for families and children from 5, you know, 5 years old on. So to look at visuals and then hear the narrative that goes along with it, I think it helps the dad or the protagonist within the story, as well as the dad who's reading the book, you know, to to his child, right? Whether it be a boy or a girl. For me, it's just again, I think kids are very visual and I think it helps to carry those lessons. It's easy to remind a kid, if you're talking to them about a certain lesson in years and a prop, later on, all you have to do is pull up the prop, and the message has been received again. Michael Ramos [00:19:50]: I love the representation of each item, and I feel like there could be a 1,000 things in every dad bag because of all the the life lessons, but that's where the onion peeling, that's a very personal family specific story with one of my daughters. We've we've talked about this. She'll actually reference it and say, papa, I need you to peel the onion. So we use that. It's a metaphor and it's something that, you know, you way of addressing and and introducing something in the book, but it it comes from draws from a an an actual experience that's really helped with communication that's been used a number of times where one daughter will say, you could just bust the onion because, like like, I'm going out tonight. Like, my friends are picking up in 10 minutes. You know what I mean? Or they'll say, I'm a you could just bust that onion open. So with that, everybody that ends up buying, I'm gonna send onions to everyone. Michael Ramos [00:20:39]: No. Nobody's getting onions. I'm just I'm just kidding. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]: Now I'm not gonna give up the end of the book, but I will say that the father at the end does share a heart felt letter that he wrote to his kids before they're born. How do you think this letter really encapsulated or encapsulates the father's hopes and aspirations for his children's future? Steven Manchester [00:20:59]: I think it's a representation of the responsibility that he feels. I think the important piece here, Chris, is that he wrote it before that child was born. So to Mike's earlier point, it's so important to learn each of their personalities and to be able to almost retrofit how you father, right, or how you parent. What I like about that piece of the book is that he wrote it from his heart before this child was born, right? So these are his aspirations, his dreams, and also the responsibility he feels, right, to be the right dad for this kid. And in Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]: the end, as people are reading this book, as they are reading it to their own kids, what are you hoping that the fathers that are reading this are gaining from it personally? And what are you hoping that their families gain from it? Michael Ramos [00:21:39]: I'm hoping that at the very, very least, just a sliver, if the dad learns or a light turns on that there is more than one way and that there's a possibility to think outside of the box and it helps him have less fear, not have that terrified feeling. And that's why the goal for me is to have this this book literally in every single hospital in the country. Because for me, it doesn't make sense that any dad should ever leave the maternity ward of a hospital with a human being without having this book in their hand because it exists. And because it's an instructional manual, it just makes sense to me because then dads don't have to be afraid. Dads won't buy remote control that have more instructions than their child's will have that they will have brought their child to him from the hospital and it'll help with that fear. And that's what I hope the dad gets from it. And if the dad gets that, the family gets everything. So I don't even need to say what the family will get from it because if the dad, they all win. Steven Manchester [00:22:31]: That's a great answer. For me, I get, you know, I I've read this book 7000 times. Right? So you get to the end of it. It's almost like a sub, like a subtle contract, right, between the father and his child, where it's like, I'm setting some expectations for you, but really what's happening is he's setting expectations for himself. He's kinda laying it out there for his daughter or his son. So I love that piece of it. We don't use a sledgehammer to, you know, slam people over the head with it, but dad legitimately sits down and reads this to his daughter, then there are some expectations that are there. And so to to Mike's point, right, some of the fear hopefully gets dispelled and and this dad understands stands. Steven Manchester [00:23:05]: He's not the only one in the boat. We got a lot of people in the boat, so stop rowing. Mike's tying. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]: And now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as dads. So I'm gonna ask you both. So first and foremost, in one word, what is fatherhood? Love. Steven Manchester [00:23:21]: I'm gonna say commitment because you use love. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]: Now when was the time that you felt that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Steven Manchester [00:23:31]: Never. I'll say the same. I can't use one word, but it still hasn't happened. And I'm not sure it will until I draw my last breath. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:37]: Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Michael Ramos [00:23:41]: I would say loving. It depends on the kids. I hear cool a lot, but that's I sing in a rock band, and I have lots of tattoos. So, like, to daughters, I'm like a really cool dad. There's a lot of words, but I do hear cool a lot. Like, I'm a cool dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Steven Manchester [00:23:57]: I would say the kids. I would say each one of my children because I owe that to them. Michael Ramos [00:24:01]: Everything that was missing in my life from a father. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:05]: Now you've both given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that you shared in the book, but also things that you've learned in your own journeys. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad? Steven Manchester [00:24:18]: For me, it's 2 words, be there. Above all things, just be there. Michael Ramos [00:24:22]: I'd add on to it. Don't give up. You got this because I think that's what I've learned from working with so many dads over the past 15 years or so is that a lot of dads just give up or they don't feel like they're good enough. And if they can't be perfect, then they don't wanna let their kids down. So that's why they check out and that's why they're not engaged. And they're not there, like Steve's saying, to be there. Don't give up on yourself. You got this. Michael Ramos [00:24:44]: And, yes, be there. It'll all come. And make the mistakes. It's okay to make the mistakes. We all do. That's called being human. It has nothing to do with being a father. It has to do with being you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:53]: Now if people wanna find out more about the book or about either of you, where should they go? Steven Manchester [00:24:57]: First and foremost, amazon.com would be the first place that they can go to. So the book's available as an ebook. So we you have the electronic version and it's also print. It's done in print as well. And we have some I don't think it's something we'll talk about today, but we have some big plans for this book to introduce to the masses. And the hope is, again, to Mike's point, whether it be hospitals, prisons, to get this book out in mass where we can make as much impact as possible. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:27]: A stories, your journey today. I truly appreciate you being here, for sharing your voice, and I wish you both the best. Steven Manchester [00:25:34]: Thanks, Chris. We appreciate you. Michael Ramos [00:25:35]: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, Chris. And thank you for being such an amazing host and making such a comfortable interview. Steven Manchester [00:25:39]: And thank you for everything you're doing for the dads out there, Chris. We appreciate that. We really do.

Discovering the Path to Better Father-Daughter Relationships In a recent episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Madeline Anderson, author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. Madeline shared insights and stories from her book and personal life, shedding light on the unique and impactful father-daughter relationship. Below, we delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how her insights can help fathers strengthen their bonds with their daughters. The Genesis of "Girl Dad" Madeline Anderson, inspired by the unique and nurturing relationship with her father, set out to write *Girl Dad*. She recognized that her bond with her dad was rare and wanted to share the principles that made their relationship special. The book is a culmination of her personal experiences and interviews with various fathers and daughters. The key lesson: making life fun and enjoyable for daughters from a young age can build strong, lasting relationships. Understanding the Importance of Small Moments A recurring theme in Madeline's book is the impact of small, consistent gestures over grandiose acts. During the podcast, she shared touching stories from daughters who cherished simple, heartfelt actions from their fathers. For instance, one father left a note in his daughter's freezer that she found after he moved her into college. Such acts of love and thoughtfulness resonate deeply, often becoming treasured memories. Building Lifelong Friendships Madeline emphasized the importance of fathers not only as authority figures but as friends. By making activities enjoyable and relating to their daughters' interests, fathers can cultivate friendship and trust. She shared an anecdote about her father building a playhouse in their attic, complete with a rock wall entry. This creative and fun project strengthened their bond, underpinning the larger message of her book—having fun together can transform the father-daughter relationship. Embracing Your Authentic Self Madeline also discussed the importance of fathers remaining true to themselves. Instead of sacrificing their interests, fathers should incorporate their daughters into their world. If a father enjoys hiking, for instance, taking his daughter along can create shared experiences and memories. When daughters feel included in their father's life, they are more likely to share their own worlds in return. The Power of Understanding Madeline urged fathers to prioritize understanding their daughters at an individual level. Simple practices like sharing "roses and thorns" of the day can open channels of communication and provide insights into their daughters' lives. By knowing her highs and lows, fathers can support their daughters more effectively and build deeper connections. Balancing Work and Family Madeline spoke about her father's ability to balance a demanding work schedule while maintaining a close relationship with his daughters. She admired his ability to integrate his work world with his family life, showcasing that with some creativity and effort, work commitments need not overshadow family time. This approach can provide daughters with positive role models and inspire them in their own professional pursuits. The Birth of Girl Dad Network Expanding on her book's mission, Madeline is launching the Girl Dad Network, an online community offering resources, mentorship, and a platform for fathers to connect and learn from one another. This network will feature monthly meetings, courses tailored by age group, gift guides, and resources for both fathers and daughters—intending to be a comprehensive support system for "girl dads" everywhere. The conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Madeline Anderson illuminated the profound impact of conscious and loving fatherhood on daughters. Madeline's work serves as a reminder that it's the little things that often matter the most. By being genuine, involving daughters in their passions, understanding their needs, and balancing work and family life, fathers can build meaningful and lasting relationships with their daughters. For more resources, fathers can visit the Girl Dad Network at girldadnetwork.com or explore Madeline's book, *Girl Dad*, available through Amazon. As underscored by Dr. Lewis, dads don't need to be perfect; they just need to be present, engaged, and open to the journey of fatherhood. Remember, every small gesture counts, and every day is an opportunity to build a stronger bond with your daughter.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down and talk to you. I say this every week, but it's so true because I learn from you as much as I'm hoping that you're learning from the people that we have on, the resources that we're sharing to help you be that dad that you wanna be to your daughters. And every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, different people with different experiences. Last week, you had an opportunity to meet Kekoa and Madeline Anderson. They both were on. I love having fathers and daughters on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: And I introduced you to the fact that Madeline is the author of a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we didn't really talk a lot about that book. But let me give you a little more context. So Madeline is an author and entrepreneur. She's got a passion for neuroscience, psychology, writing, and speaking. She's the daughter of a girl dad. We met him last week. And he's a father of 3 daughters. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: So he's got a lot of experience in that. And over a number of years, she spent over a number of years, she had the opportunity to interview a wide array of fathers and daughters to write this book about how you can be the best dad that you can be to your daughters. It really fits in well with the podcast and what we do in fathering together. So I'm really excited to have her back again this week to talk more about this journey that she's been on to be able to help dance and to learn a little bit more about what she learned in that process as well. Madeleine, thanks so much for being back again this week. Madeline Anderson [00:02:02]: Thank you so much for having me, Christopher. I really appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: Well, I am excited to have you back. And it was so fun having your dad on last week and learning about the journey that the both that both of you were on. And I love some of the stories that he was sharing and some of the stories you were sharing about golfing and being able to, be that multi sport, fed into this book. But I I guess I wanna go back to the genesis because you're not a mother. You're not a father. You're writing a book, though, about being a great dad to daughters, and I think that has to have come from what we heard last week in the relationship that you have with your own father. But give me some of the genesis of what made you decide that you wanted to spend the time, the effort to interview all these people, to gain all this insight, and then put this book out into the world. Madeline Anderson [00:02:54]: So I wrote this book because I have an incredible relationship with my dad. And, obviously, y'all heard that on the last podcast, but I had no idea how rare our relationship is. And I really want to change that. So that's the genesis of the book. And it started out with me writing stories with my dad and how he raised me and my 2 younger sisters. But then it turned into so much more than that as I started interviewing both dads and daughters from all over, like you mentioned. And I think it's really a culmination of their stories, lessons, and advice that really shine throughout the book. And the actual moment that I realized I wanted to write the book was actually an interesting one. Madeline Anderson [00:03:37]: I was driving in Santa Monica. I could tell you exactly what street I was on and where I was going, but I I just had a thought pop into my head that said, you should write a book called Girl Dad. And like I said, I had always known I had a great relationship with my dad, but this thought just kind of came out of left field. And I've recently read Rick Rubin's book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. And there was something in it that really stood out to me as relevant to this conversation. And he talked a lot about artists being the vessels for bringing the art or the idea to life and how sometimes ideas just come to you. And you're meant to basically take that idea and put it out into the world. And I really feel that that was the case for girl dad. Madeline Anderson [00:04:18]: It felt like a calling that's bigger than me, bigger than my stories, and it was something that I almost had to do because it was so important. And I think that having that daughter perspective is hopefully really helpful for dads because I'm trying to shed light on what we care about, what we want from our dads, and how to have a great relationship with us. So that's kind of the the genesis of Girl Dad, and it's evolving every day. I'm so excited. I'm launching Girl Dad Network very, very soon here, and that'll be an online platform for dads with all kinds of different things, like community and monthly live meetings with me, resources for the dads, resource for the daughters. Just kind of a full, all encompassing girl dad takes me takes me and how many people this message reaches. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:11]: You know, one of the things that you said in the past podcast was that and and you reflected that just a moment ago where you talked about how rare it was for you to realize the relationship between you and your dad was not the norm. And you realized that in college when you interacted with other women that didn't have that same relationship. Talk to me about that and what you were hearing from some of these other women about the relationships they did not have. And what were those women telling you about what they wished that relationship was and what was missing in that relationship? Madeline Anderson [00:05:49]: Yeah. It started the day that I moved in, and I lived in a dorm with I think it was there's 8 of us. So it was a 2 bedroom dorm with I know, I guess it was 6 of us. There was 2 bedrooms, 3 people in each bedroom, 1 bathroom, kind of a tough situation, but my dad helped me move in and he was there. He was so supportive. We grabbed dinner afterwards, the way he was helping me set up and everything. And then all 5 of the other girls were just there in awe. They didn't have a dad who was helping them move in. Madeline Anderson [00:06:19]: And I definitely took it for granted. It was like, you know, move in day course he's coming. That's what he does. Like, you know, he's just always there for me. And so it was, that was the first moment. And then after he left, they had told me a lot about that. Like, wow, I can't believe your dad did that. That was so nice of him. Madeline Anderson [00:06:34]: And I I really wish my dad would care for me like that. And and then obviously throughout college, I met ton of other girls who also had either no relationship with their dad or a very negative relationship. And they would say, you know, they hate their dad. You know, just really things that make my skin crawl a little bit and it and it hurts my heart, but it basically, it became very obvious to me that I had something very special And I always knew he was amazing, but I didn't realize how rare our relationship was. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:01]: So you spent all this time, and you started kinda deconstructing the relationship that you had with your own father. And as you were looking at that, what were some of the big points, some of the things that really stood out to you that were unique in your relationship that you weren't seeing in some of the other relationships around you? Madeline Anderson [00:07:21]: I think it probably tends to start from a young age. And looking back to when me and my sisters were young, one thing he did consistently was make life fun. So he would just put himself in our shoes and try to make every situation fun for us. And by having fun with him, we became more than, you know, just a father daughter dynamic. We became friends. And so we've kind of built that friendship over the years. We're still great friends and he's also my dad and I'm also his daughter, you know, that you can be both. And I think that's one thing that really became clear throughout my adulthood and reflecting on these stories and talking with my younger sisters and trying to think back, okay, What was that thing dad did with us? You know? It's like the common theme is we had so much fun, and nothing was, like, too crazy or such a rare idea. Madeline Anderson [00:08:12]: It was all just, like, being silly or just hanging out with us and making us feel special. And one thing that comes to mind is he built us this playhouse, and it was just the coolest thing ever. He we had an attic, and so he transformed that attic into our playhouse. And he's super handy. So he did all the insulation and put in wood floors in the attic. And then what he did is he cut a hole in the top of our closet, and then he built a rock wall. And we were helping him throughout the process. So I have photos of me with little mask on up in the attic, and we went to REI and got the rock wall pieces and helped decide, okay, this one should go here. Madeline Anderson [00:08:48]: This is here. And then it became this epic playhouse where you had to crawl up a rock wall in the closet to get to this playhouse. And we called it Club Wahini because he was born in Hawaii and we would draw on the walls. And every time our friends would come over, they would sign the wall And we would be up there for hours and hours, like, every day, every weekend, we had sleepovers up there. And it was just such a fun thing that he did. And he just he thought of it because he's creative, and he's always thinking about, oh, how can we make this fun? He's he's just really good at turning any situation into something that you wanna be a part of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:24]: So beyond what you were learning specifically about the relationship between you and your dad because by taking a clinical approach to taking a look at the relationship, it's a it it kinda sets makes you have to step back and look from a macro view versus the micro view that you grew up in. But then you went beyond that, and you started to talk to other fathers, daughters about their relationships. What did you learn what did you start learning from those conversations that was eye opening for you as you were preparing and collecting all this data that would eventually be written in your book? Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]: The first thing that comes to mind is when I interviewed all the daughters, the same theme kind of kept coming up, which is it's all the little things that matter. Like, no daughter said, oh, you know, my dad is really special because on my birthday, he got me this, like, nice purse or, you know, something like big. It's all these little micro moments that add up over time. And funny enough, I had 2 daughters talk a long time, and it was like their favorite story about handwritten notes. One of them was a daughter who her dad helped her move into college as well. And their thing growing up was they would eat ice cream together on the couch. And so when he was moving in, he wrote on a little piece of paper, I wish I was eating. I was here eating ice cream with you and he put it in her freezer. Madeline Anderson [00:10:50]: And then that night when he left, she was feeling all sad and she went to go get some ice cream and she saw that note there. And she said she started crying, and it was so special. And she's moved multiple times since then. And she told me she's brought the note with her every time and puts it in her freezer. And it's so funny how it's just this simple note. That was only a few words. Right? But it meant the world to her. And then the second example was one of the daughters that I interviewed, she when she was going off to college, she was having a lot of anxiety. Madeline Anderson [00:11:19]: She has always kind of had a lot of anxiety, struggled with that. And she's grown up really close to home, doesn't like to leave home. And her college was in a different state. It was a flight away. And she was ultimately deciding that she didn't wanna go anymore because she couldn't handle it. And so her dad wrote her the kindest note just outlining how he's so proud of her, how she can do this, he'll be with her every step of the way, and just made her feel like she was capable. And so she ended up going to college at this school that was far away. She brought the note with her. Madeline Anderson [00:11:50]: She put it in her backpack. She said she took it to every single class, and she felt a sense of comfort just knowing that that note was in her backpack. It was almost as if her dad was there in her presence. And she also told me that she has that note still today even though she's past graduation and everything. And she said it's all kind of crumpled up and, like, it looks old, but she said she'll keep it forever. So I think those are two powerful stories that just go to show you that it's just these little micro moments that means so much to us daughters. And at the end of the day, we just wanna feel loved. We wanna feel seen and heard and special. Madeline Anderson [00:12:25]: And there's lots of ways to do that, but it could be as simple as a really genuine smile just like every day or a handwritten note or a big hug. Like, there's just these things that matter so much to us, and it's it's not rocket science necessarily, but it takes getting to understand us as individuals and what we need from our dads, to feel supported and loved. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:49]: So you collect all this data. And as someone that went through a doctorate program and wrote a dissertation, I know what that's like, and especially qualitative data when you're pulling all kinds of stories together, and you're trying to figure out some type of semblance of order to all of this and putting it into thematic areas that make sense. Talk to me about some of the high level learning pieces that people are going to find as they go through this book and some of the main points that you are trying to put out there into the world. Not that you have to give away every secret because we want people to read the book, but what are some of the high level areas and things that you really are delving deeper into into in the book itself? Madeline Anderson [00:13:32]: Yeah. I think the first thing that I I would say is that it's a very positive book. I want dads to read this and to close it and be like, let's go. I'm so happy that I have a daughter. I'm so excited depending on what age level she's at. I'm so excited for her journey to raise her, but I really want people to have fun with it. And I think that plays into one of the first themes and takeaways, which is to don't stop being you. And I think it's an important one because I want you to be the happiest version of yourself because when you're happy, you're usually a better father, a better husband. Madeline Anderson [00:14:06]: It all starts with not taking away the things that you love. But this book, a lot of my, the, the stories and the themes throughout it talk about not giving those things up, but then in finding ways to include your daughter in them. And I think, you know, when you include her in your world, she will let you into hers. It might happen over time, especially as she gets older, but it pays dividends by making her feel like she's a part of your life and your passions. So I would say that's a that's a big one. Another takeaway would be getting to know your daughter and the importance of that and figuring out how to know your daughter. And there's some great tips in there like plain roses and thorns, which is basically asking her her rose of the day and her thorn of the day. So like a highlight of the day and something that maybe issue wish went differently and how powerful those conversations can be because she might be holding on to something and not going to speak up about it. Madeline Anderson [00:15:05]: But if you give her the floor and you say, what was your thorn of the day? Then maybe something will come up. Something's going on at school or she's having an argument with a friend and it's really weighing on her. And she might not say anything. But when you give her the microphone and you show her that you're there to support her, you might learn a lot. And same thing goes with the positive side too. You might learn some of her passions that you didn't recognize. So that's another big one. And then I talk a lot about work and life. Madeline Anderson [00:15:32]: And I think that's a big talking point for me, especially with my dad. He did such a good job of including me in his world with work. And so I never felt like my dad was spending too much time on work and not enough time with the family, even though he spends a ton of time on work. But I look at it as, wow. He's so amazing, so inspired by him. I hope to be as hardworking as him, and I don't look at as look at it as, you know, a negative or something that's taken away from me and my time. So I think there's a lot of tips on all three of those. There's plenty of, you know, tips on other things as well, but I would say those are some of the highlights. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:09]: Now you talked about some of the things that you're planning to do. And as I'm sure going through college, moving into your career, this probably was not on your on your entrepreneurial journey of thinking that this was what you were going to hang your hat on and to put out into the world and to engage fathers in this way. So talk to me about where you are today, where you're going. You talked a little bit about that at the beginning, but let's talk about it again. I'd like to go a little deeper on that and what your hope is for what people are gonna take out of this book and to either take their own relationship to the next level or what that means, but share that with me as well. Madeline Anderson [00:16:49]: So got a lot of exciting things in the works. I think my biggest focus right now is Girl Dad Network, building that out. So there's going to be some programs which are like courses depending on age level of the daughters. There's going to be monthly calls with me where it'll be a live call with me and like anyone in the community who wants to join. And I think that will be a really powerful piece because we'll be able to dive into things that are going on in in the relationship and how to amend things or how to prepare for, you know, certain stages of life. And I'll go over different topics as well and really excited for that piece. And then you've got the community side, being able to communicate with other fathers who are in similar situations or have daughters of the same age. There'll be events live and virtual. Madeline Anderson [00:17:35]: Let's see. There's resources for the dads. I'm really excited about the gift guide actually because I'm building that with other daughters. So they can just go on there, add to cart, make it super easy for them. And it's all from the daughter's perspective once again. So they know, okay, if this is something that the daughters would want, then it's probably, very relevant. And then there's also resources for the daughter. So I'm building out, like, a mentorship program for the daughter, job board, and a college prep program as well. Madeline Anderson [00:18:03]: So just wanted to be a one stop shop for the dads, everything girl dad related. How can they have a great relationship with their daughter? How can they set their daughter up for success? It's an online community. So it's, yeah, that's my main focus right now. Super excited about that. And then I would say the second part of it is speaking. I'm doing a lot more speaking events and been really, really loving that. I think my main focus is just getting out in front of as many dads as possible, whether that be through the book, through the speaking, through the community, and just being able to make an impact on fathers and daughters and future generations. So that's my passion. Madeline Anderson [00:18:39]: And, yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing where it takes me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:41]: So if people are interested in finding out more about the network, about the book, where should they go? Madeline Anderson [00:18:47]: Yeah. So for the network, girldadnetwork.com. And for the book, girl dad the book dot com. It's also on Amazon, but there's a link through the website as well if that's easier. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:57]: And we'll put links in the notes today for all of you to be able to find this, to be able to go out, grab the book, and be able to learn from the book, from the father and daughter relationships that are in the book. You're definitely not going to wanna miss this, and you're going to want to learn from this journey that not only that Madeleine has been on with her own dad, but also the journeys of all these fathers and daughters because it's really important to be able to take in all of this, like we talk about every week on the show, and be able to be open to learning, to be open to the journey, and know that you don't have to be a perfect dad. But there are things that you can do to be able to set up some building blocks that will help you to be the dad that you want to be. So I just want to say thank you, Madeleine, for making this a passion area for yourself, for working with fathers in so many different ways, for putting this out into the world. And I wish you all the best. Madeline Anderson [00:19:48]: Thank you, Christopher. It's an honor to be here, and I appreciate everything that you're doing for all the dads out there as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:54]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.

Fatherhood is a multifaceted journey laden with challenges, joys, fears, and triumphs. On the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome a special duo—Kekoa Anderson and his daughter, Madeline Anderson author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads & Their Daughters. Their insightful conversation unveils the essence of father-daughter relationships, the intricacies of raising daughters, and the profound impact of intentional parenting. The Initial Excitement and Overwhelming Responsibility When asked about the first moment he realized he was going to be a father to a daughter, Kekoa Anderson recalled it as an overwhelmingly positive time. He highlighted the sudden surge of responsibility that came with the birth of his daughter. This initial moment of excitement quickly paved the way for a lifelong journey of learning and adaptation. Kekoa described fatherhood as a process of evolving fears and challenges. From protecting an innocent little girl to dealing with the complexities of adolescence, each stage brought new hurdles. However, the underlying theme remained the same: the importance of being present and proactive in his daughters' lives. Developing Unique Relationships One of the key points discussed in the podcast was the necessity of building unique relationships with each child. Kekoa emphasized the importance of recognizing each daughter's individuality. He talked about creating bonds through shared interests like work and golf, which allowed him to engage with each daughter uniquely. Madeline fondly recounted her memories of being included in her father's work and the significant role golf played in their relationship. Guiding Through Challenges and Building Confidence Madeline also shared an insightful story that illustrated how her father's confidence in her abilities played a crucial role in shaping her self-esteem. At just 16, Kekoa entrusted her with attending a pre-proposal meeting, a task that seemed daunting at first but ultimately empowering. This experience, among many others, instilled in Madeline a sense of confidence and independence that she carries with her into adulthood. Kekoa explained his approach to parenting as one that focuses on guiding his daughters to the answers rather than giving them directly. This method built their confidence and equipped them with problem-solving skills essential for their future endeavors. Cherishing the Journey One of the most compelling parts of the conversation was the mutual respect and admiration between Kekoa and Madeline. Madeline expressed her awe at her father's thoughtful and supportive nature. She highlighted how the realization of her unique father-daughter relationship dawned on her during college when she noticed the absence of such bonds in her peers' lives. Kekoa, in turn, shared how reading Madeline's book “Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters” was a reflective experience for him, reminding him of the many special moments they shared and the lessons they both learned. Advice for Fathers The episode concluded with the "Fatherhood 5," where both guests shared their insights and advice. Madeline stressed the importance of showing up and understanding your daughter. Knowing her passions, love language, and personality can significantly enhance the father-daughter relationship. Kekoa added the wisdom of enjoying the journey and not rushing through the moments. He likened it to the gentle pace necessary in a game of golf, emphasizing the importance of taking your time and appreciating each step of the way. The conversation with Kekoa and Madeline Anderson on the “Dads with Daughters” podcast encapsulates the essence of fatherhood. It's an ever-evolving journey that requires patience, understanding, and the willingness to grow alongside your children. Kekoa's stories and Madeline's reflections offer valuable lessons for all fathers striving to build strong, supportive, and empowering relationships with their daughters. As Dr. Christopher Lewis often reiterates, fatherhood is a journey for life—a journey best traveled with love, patience, and an open heart.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being on this journey with you. We have an opportunity every week to be able to to to work through this journey that you're on with your daughter. And every week, I love being able to be on this journey. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I have the opportunity to be able to learn and grow just like you are from the guests that we have on the show because it is a constant journey that we are all on. No matter if you have infants or if you have college age or if you have kids that are grown and flown out of the house and living their own life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: No matter what it is, you're still gonna be growing as a father, And your relationship with your daughters are going to change over that time. So it's important. It's important to keep learning, important to stay open to learning. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone through this journey in different ways. We have dads, we have daughters, we have lots of people with lots of different resources. And this week we got 2 great guests with us. I am always excited when I get to have a father and a daughter on. And this week, we do have that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]: We have father Kekoa Anderson, and daughter, Madeline Anderson, with us today. And Madeline and I got introduced because Madeline recently wrote a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we'll talk a little bit about that and this. And I think we may even have this into a 2 parter. So we'll talk more in-depth about the book as well as what she learned. But today, we're gonna be talking a lot about their relationship and what led Madeleine to writing this book as well. So I'm really excited to have them on. Kikoa, Madeleine, thanks so much for being here today. Kekoa Anderson [00:01:56]: Thank you very much. Madeline Anderson [00:01:57]: Thank you for having us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time, Kikoa, and I'm gonna have you start here today. So I wanna go back to that first moment, that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter, what was going through your head? Kekoa Anderson [00:02:11]: Exciting times years ago. So, you know, going back to the time in my life, it was a great time in life. Just having been married for a number of years and dating my wife for some time. You know, that was the height of everything where life was all in front of me. So when that came, that was just kind of the first step of having a child. And my wife and I both wanted to be surprised, so we didn't know the sex of Madeleine at the time. So it was, you know, one of those things. And that day was just kind of life changing when all of a sudden this responsibility little package popped out and it was like really overwhelming, extremely positive way. Kekoa Anderson [00:02:47]: Reflecting back on that time was interest growing up and being a civil engineer and structural engineer and all the mechanics that are associated with that and testing everything, this was something where you could have a baby and walk out of the hospital and they just basically say, like, good luck. And there's no test, there's no form. It was an interesting time at that birth. So being ready for it, it's like, no, I was not ready for it. Nobody is. You just hear the stories from everybody. And so leaving that out, that was certainly a very exciting time. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh, I got a lot of work to do. Kekoa Anderson [00:03:20]: What's my plan and what's my path forward? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:22]: You know, I talk to a lot of dads that talk about that moment when you're walking out of the hospital and they're they're especially if it's a first child, but also a your first daughter of this sense of heaviness that sets on you and the weight of being a father, but also of being a father to a daughter. And that there's some fear that goes along with that too. What would you say is was your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Kekoa Anderson [00:03:45]: It's almost like the from the little age, the fragileness and safety issue and kind of being there for him and, and the responsibility of like, of taking care of that life at that little time. It was, you know, that was the frightening part where, you know, it wasn't necessarily frightening, but it was just something that kind of came up on top. And then as you go through that, then those things change from protecting a helpless innocent little girl to then seeing her interact with certain situations, everything from preschool to kindergarten, where they had little discuss and there's little issues, which are easy solves at that time to when, you know, you move up into the junior high, high school range, and, you know, they start dating different guys, you know, then it becomes there's another kind of sense of where's the manual for this? And how do I interact with them and protect them guide them at the same time, give them the freedom to learn and choose and not be overwhelming. So you know, that very dynamic and changing all the way through it. So So now that you're interviewing me with an older daughter having gone through that, maybe I didn't answer the specific area. But, you know, that's kind of the from the start to where we were today, maybe in the summary. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:50]: And, Madeline, when you hear that, what goes through Madeline Anderson [00:04:52]: your head? I'm just sitting here in awe. I mean, I know we've talked so much about our relationship and I interviewed him throughout the whole girl dad process, but I feel like every time I hear how he thinks and what's going through his head, it just reminds me of how many thoughts there are, how thoughtful he is, and just how incredible of a dad he is. But I think, yeah, as far as the fears and everything, I'm sitting here kind of imagining myself going through that with my own kids one day as well. And recognizing that, yeah, there's not just one big fear. I think you answered that really well, dad. It's it really evolves throughout time and changes depending on the age and the time of life and what's kinda going around them at the time. So I'm sure a lot of dads out there can relate to that as well. Kekoa Anderson [00:05:37]: Yeah. And it's it wasn't really so much fear. It was probably kind of the wrong word. It was just kind of a when I reflect back on it, it wasn't the number of fearful steps. It was just the situations came up. You weren't in fear waiting for it to happen. It just happened and you had to react. So it's like, how do you react when reactions are necessary? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:55]: And I'll say it. I mean, and fear doesn't end. There are going to be things in life even when your child is out of the house and they are living their own life, that you can still be fearful or you can still have concerns. And but you have to temper those concerns and understand that your child is an adult. And how do you deal with that now, Kikoa, as you see Certainly Kekoa Anderson [00:06:17]: Certainly no fear of that, but there's, like, the worries and stuff. As I know, I feel very confident in her abilities to manage and take care of herself even from the safety issues to the work related elements to the financial side. Those, you know, at this level, it's nice. It's that's certainly a comfortable area where you can kinda boost control with that element instead of have to worry about it. But when challenges come up, certainly, you're there to go through those fears collectively and communicate them throughout. I still, as she's taken a trip to some area, I'm giving her extra fatherly advice on don't go to these parts and stay away from this or avoid that. And she probably doesn't wanna hear that. And she already knows anyway. Kekoa Anderson [00:07:01]: But it's also it's good just to throw those things out there. So those little bullet points are in her head. Head. I always do that, maybe overdo that too, which maybe is a negative, but, you know, it's my role. I have to do it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: You're always gonna be a dad. That does not stop. No matter what and how old your child is, you'll still be a father and you're still gonna be engaged in many different ways. Now, every parent and then child are able to develop unique relationships, and there's things that really define that for themselves. Especially if you have multiple kids, you have to have those unique relationships with multiple kids. But when you have that relationship with your daughter, you're going to be developing it in your own way. Madeleine, for you, as you think about the relationship that you have with your dad and how that's evolved over the years, what's been some of the favorite things that you and your dad share together that you've appreciated most as you have gone through this relationship? Madeline Anderson [00:07:51]: Yeah. I would say to come to mind first. There's plenty of similarities and things that we bond over, but I would say the first one would be work. I was brought to my dad's work on the weekends when I was a kid, really enjoyed those moments. And he's always made me feel really included in his role and his job. And so I always understood when he was working, what he was doing, and it never felt like he was taking time away from me and my sisters. It felt like, oh, he's working. He's motivated. Madeline Anderson [00:08:21]: He's someone who we should be inspired by. So I always looked up to him in that sense. And then as I grew, I would always call him for work advice or business advice and we love bouncing ideas off one another or brainstorming things for work. So it's something that could be dry, but it's actually really fun for both of us, I think. And we have really great conversations around work and drive and what's next and game planning and goal setting and all of those kinds of things. And then number 2 would be golf. And that was something that my dad introduced to me as a young girl by just taking me to the course with him when he played with his friends. And at the time I didn't play, I just would sit there and count the bunnies and watch the wildlife and just enjoy myself in the cart. Madeline Anderson [00:09:06]: And finally, when I was old enough to maybe swing a club, I got a little snoopy set. It was a driver and a putter and one iron. And that was really fun for me because I felt included in the sport. And now, you know, he could take me with his friends and I could hit every now and then, and it made me feel like I was a part of the team. And then fast forward to high school, I tried out for the high school team and made that. And so I played throughout high school and he was always there guiding me. He would show up to my matches and had some fun little like one liners like roll it and hold it. And I'm forgetting some of the others, but there was some good life lessons. Kekoa Anderson [00:09:39]: From another. Madeline Anderson [00:09:40]: Yeah. Well, there's just some good life lessons in golf because it takes a lot of patience and we have to think about every stroke matters. Drive for show, putt for dough. That was another one you said. And it's just every stroke matters. You can't take what just happened in the past and apply it to the future. You have to take every single hit individually. And so having him there throughout that chapter was amazing. Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]: And now as an adult, I love going home and playing golf with my dad or trying to find a new course to play out with him. So that's been a really fun bonding experience that we still get to enjoy as adults and both work and golf, I suppose, that started when I was a young girl. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:20]: And what about you, Kikoa? What were some of the things that you appreciated most in that building of the relationship and the things that you shared together? Kekoa Anderson [00:10:27]: That really makes my life takes me to that extra level. Like, if I didn't have a daughter or didn't have that area, like, how my life would be different. And definitely with 3 daughters, there was a lot of different uniqueness with each one and what we did. But specifically, I think some of the successes that really made my life more expanding was to include her in those things. With the work like one she talked about, you know, we've done a lot of different projects together. We kind of create the projects to work together on. And, you know, at a little age for her visiting the office and coming in and coloring and drawing on plan sets, you know, as an engineer and like developing bridges, we had all kinds of big sheets of paper. So that was a canvas to colour on, which was fun. Kekoa Anderson [00:11:10]: But at the same time, she got to kind of see, you know, what was all engaged. And there was a lot of neat things from the computers to the printers to even the old drafting elements that was kind of unique, you know, from the work and I think that helped guide her in some of the areas that she liked. But, you know, golf outside activity is an excellent sport to play with all 3 of my daughters and even my wife. It's just being out in nature and walking. Like I said, in the early age, it wasn't about her trying to outdrive her sister, that type of thing. It was like riding in the cart. You know, they wanted to drive the car, play with the bunnies, go to the lake and fish out golf balls or things more so. But then over time, it kind of grew. Kekoa Anderson [00:11:49]: So that walk together was really, you have time for conversation, Your daughter actually beats you on poles. So then you have the competition that's, I might drive longer, but she can putt better. So all of a sudden there's these equalizers that so having the competition and you're both trying your hardest is unique, you know, compared to some other sports. So, you know, I think we all enjoyed that time together. But even just the trips and things that we took and having the conversations is really what to understand who everybody is and how they're different and being able to engage in that. You just gotta make time to do that. So the more we did it, the better. And when there's times when we got caught up with other things, it's kind of rebalancing yourself so that you have time for those activities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:32]: You know, one of the questions that I guess that I would ask as a father of multiple daughters, as I said, you have to build those unique relationships. How did you find yourself parenting, fathering each of your daughters in unique ways to be able to build those unique relationships with each of them, as they were all growing? Kekoa Anderson [00:12:49]: Yeah. That's a tough one. I mean, that kind of first had a lot of activity. So it was like, here's kind of the spread. So as an engineer, I'm looking at economy of scale. So I want the golf clubs to pass down. So either one's gonna play golf. You know, the ski boots, it's like, hey, Malins went to Meredith, Meredith went to Ella. Kekoa Anderson [00:13:04]: And they I kept having 3 girls was awesome from a standpoint of once you kind of have all those upfront costs on the first, you can spread it down. But I think what we did was we were kind of well rounded and did a lot of different activities. So whether it was surfing, skiing, golfing, tennis, soccer, softball, pickleball, there was enough where we did a lot of sports, weren't necessarily experts in 1, but enjoyed the time together. So everybody kind of fell into their place and got to be themselves, you know, through that portfolio of a lot of different activities. Instead, you know, some fathers, maybe it's all soft ball and they only do softball and others might just be soccer and there's club and hockey now. And, you know, so everything's so focused and those coaches want you just to be like all this one sport. And they're always pushing for that for their team and their success. But again, watching the 3, maybe we wanted to make sure that they could go on the ski trip together. Kekoa Anderson [00:13:58]: And just because there was, you know, some club soccer team event that they would get in trouble for missing, it was kinda like we had to take that sacrifice so that our family could be together. So we didn't let, you know, one thing dominate, and we kept the portfolio open for the 3 to kinda fall into what worked Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]: best for them. Now, Madeleine, people can easily hear from you that you have been able you've been bothered in a good way in in regards to helping you to become a independent individual person that is out there living your life, doing good things, and really making a life for yourself ahead of you. And I'll say your parents had a say in that. They helped you in that journey, and you helped yourself in somewhat in that journey too. But I guess as you think back to the things that your father did, the things that he did to be able to help you to become the person that you are today, what were some of the things that really stand out to you that he did for you that really allowed for you to become the woman that you are today? Madeline Anderson [00:14:58]: The influence is certainly there. I think there's a couple of stories that come to mind, but I really liked what he said about the multiple sports. And I think that kind of mentality of, like, you can do whatever, find your passions, you know, it wasn't forced upon us, but we ended up like, I really enjoyed soccer and golf and my little sister, the littlest one, she found her passion in art. And I think throughout all of us kind of finding our own lane, obviously both my parents, my dad specifically has been so supportive and once once we kind of define what that lane is, he's really good about offering support and advice and kind of guiding us through that journey. But I think another thing is just that belief in me and my sisters and our capabilities. And one story that comes to mind is when I was 16, I just got my driver's license and my dad woke me up and he was like, Madeline, I'm double booked for a meeting. I'm I'm gonna need you to fill in for me. I was like, What do you mean? And he said, it's a pre proposal meeting. It's no big deal. You're gonna go there. You've got this. You just need to meet with everyone, give them your business cards, But first you need to understand if they're a landscape architect or an engineer. If they're an engineer politely, and the conversation move on, go to the next person, hopefully they're a landscape architect, then you give them your business card. And so I went to this pre proposal meeting. I was the youngest person by probably 30 years and one of the only women. Madeline Anderson [00:16:20]: And I had enough call, like probably too much confidence. And I just walked around and I was like, hi, would chat with somebody, found out they're a landscape architect, and then I would give them my business card. And then afterwards when I came home, even I was like, great job. Okay. Now follow-up with them. And I was like, what? So he taught me, he guided me through that whole process, but in doing so he gave me so much confidence in my abilities and put me in an uncomfortable situation, but told me that I was going to be great and could do it. And I think throughout that process, I learned how to be confident in my work and I'm sure that's just one example, but there's been so many throughout, especially high school and college where he's really just been there for me and, has guided me to feel confident about what I'm doing. So I I think that that's really translated into my adulthood and kind of how I do what I do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:09]: Thank you, Coop. Were there any other things that you intentionally tried to do with your daughters to be able to instill that in them, whether they accepted it or not? Kekoa Anderson [00:17:19]: Well, definitely, yeah. I mean, the whole point of challenging them to build their confidence is not giving them the answer to the question, but a number of questions to get to the answer. And through that path of finding those was part of that success of building the confidence. I think that was one area. You know, always look at a way to bait them into thinking through the process. And for example, if you go into that pre proposal meeting, I'm an engineer. We do the bridges. So we were looking we didn't need to meet them. Kekoa Anderson [00:17:47]: They're our competitors. We wanted to look at the ones that we could partner with. So her, you know, and it was low hanging fruit. If she messed up, it wasn't gonna change our outcome, but it was just a benefit. There wasn't the pressure of her having her having to fail. It was just giving her a chance to succeed. I mean, that step of kind of seeing if she could figure out a way to figure out who's the engineer, who's a landscape architect, because we wanted those landscape architects on our team. And if she messed up and actually got an engineer, we could've worked through that issue. Kekoa Anderson [00:18:14]: So, again, it was setting them up with a challenge and let them get their hands dirty and figure it out. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:19]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where we ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into typically, it's the dad, but today, we're gonna be doing both of you. And so first and foremost, Madeline, in one word, what is fatherhood? Madeline Anderson [00:18:34]: I wanna say either guidance or support. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:36]: Kekoa.? Kekoa Anderson [00:18:37]: Yeah. One word. That's a tough one. It's just kinda like it's life for me. It's like, hey. That's I'm a father. So that's a tough one. But it's definitely that walk. Kekoa Anderson [00:18:45]: It makes everything fatherhood is who I am. It's awesome. Love it. I can't imagine not being it and not having that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]: Now, Madeleine, when was the time that you felt that your dad finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Madeline Anderson [00:18:57]: I feel like the the finally is throwing me off because I think I grew up just with the understanding that he's a great dad to daughters. I don't know that there was ever a moment that it hit me. Oh, well, you know what? Actually, I will say when I went to college, that's when I really realized how amazing my dad is because I realized how rare that relationship is. And I might've taken it for granted, to be honest. And when I realized that a lot of the women around me did not have great relationships with their dads and they couldn't believe how close me and my dad are, that really shook me. And so, yeah, that would be probably the moment that I realized he has always been a great dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:34]: and Kekoa? Kekoa Anderson [00:19:35]: Yeah. I mean, I think the success of being a father is is it's never over. It's, like, endless. So it's you're only as good as your last success. But some of the things where you know, I saw, you know, pivotal points and like, certainly like graduation and leaving the house. And interesting enough, like Malin writing this book, it was like because a lot of people don't get to talk about it. So then when I first was reading the drafts of that, it was like, you know, goodness, obviously, the things that I had forgotten about a number of things that we had done when she was young and those type of things and really getting her perspective. So if, I mean, if daughters made a list of things that they really appreciated and the dads got to see that, that's awesome. Kekoa Anderson [00:20:14]: And, you know, so that was kind of, you know, success by her writing that and me getting to reflect on it. You know, that was, you know, great job, Mandy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]: Thank you. And, Kikoa, as you think about fatherhood, who inspires you to be a better dad? Kekoa Anderson [00:20:27]: Yeah. I mean, that's a tough one too. I I think that my style is I watch and listen a number of people, and whenever I see a good idea or lesson learned, I I take that for myself. So, you know, certainly my father and my wife's father, they were great examples and a lot of family friends. So I kinda used that whole portfolio and sold all the great ideas for myself and step myself up based on what I saw and learned from them. So, but definitely, you know, my own father and my father-in-law were a big inspiration throughout the whole time as they were active with Madeline and the other daughters as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]: Now, both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that any dad could think about. As we finish up today, Madeline, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Madeline Anderson [00:21:15]: I would say show up for her. And I think the best way to do that is by knowing who she is. So take the time to really understand your daughter, her passions, the way that she thinks, maybe her love language, and then use that information to show up for her the way that she needs because that's gonna look different for every daughter. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]: Thank you, Koa. Kekoa Anderson [00:21:34]: Yeah. I think make the most of it and kind of, you get to reap all the benefits of it. I think that using golf is kind of one of the discussion items. There was a gentleman told me once, he said, you know, swing slow and accept the extra distance, which I always love that one, but that that's the same type of thing here with the advice for the dad. It's like there's a whole bunch of different moments and don't race to get to one end. Just enjoy the different parts of it and and kinda use that and take that time to engage. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:02]: Well, I truly appreciate both of you sharing this today. And and I know, Madeleine, we're gonna have you on another episode to talk more about the book. We didn't go go really into the book today. We're gonna tease that out for the next episode that we're going to have with you to be able to delve even deeper into this learning of talking to all of these different fathers and not only kind of taking the the experience that you had with your own dad, but but going even deeper than that and talking to many other fathers about their own experiences. So I really appreciate you both sharing your journey and for sharing that with other dads, and I wish you both the best. Kekoa Anderson [00:22:40]: Thank you very much. Madeline Anderson [00:22:41]: Thank you, Christopher. Really appreciate you having us on today. Kekoa Anderson [00:22:44]: Indeed. Thank you so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:46]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:35]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

Exploring Values-Driven Fatherhood In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast we sat down with Dr. Jason Frishman of JourneyMen to delve into vital conversations surrounding fatherhood, societal equity, and the evolving role of dads in modern families. From building equitable homes to redefining traditional masculinity, this episode offered profound insights and practical advice for every father aiming to be more present and effective in their children's lives. Below, we unpack the most compelling segments from their conversation. The Roots of Social Justice in Family Life Dr. Jason Frishman shared how his upbringing, influenced by deeply rooted values of equality and social justice, shaped his perspectives on parenting. The lessons he learned from his grandparents and parents about fairness and understanding have become the foundation of how he raises his own children. Jason emphasized that fostering an equitable home environment isn't only a moral obligation; it's essential for nurturing well-rounded, empathetic individuals. Concerns Over Societal Pressures One of Jason's primary concerns lies in the societal pressures that could impact his children's values and character as they grow. He pointed out that while more men are spending time at home, the growth in fatherhood roles hasn't kept pace with these changes. This lag can lead to challenges as men navigate roles they may not be fully prepared for, often under the weight of traditional societal expectations. Transitioning from Children to Fathers: A Professional and Personal Journey Jason's professional journey has taken him from working with children to specializing in counseling men and fathers. This shift was driven by his passion for creating positive societal change and challenging the traditional narratives of masculinity. He introduced the concept of "foundational adventures," a counternarrative designed to redefine what it means to be a man and a father in today's world. Embracing New Masculinity Narratives Journeymen, the organization Jason is involved with, seeks to redefine masculinity and fatherhood. By promoting more inclusive partnerships at home, Journeymen encourages fathers to be active, engaged, and supportive partners, paving the way for healthier family dynamics. Jason's personal realization of embedded patriarchal thoughts highlighted the need for continuous growth and change, both individually and collectively. Values Work as a Beacon for Personal Growth A crucial part of Jason's message is the role of values in guiding personal growth. He stressed that challenges and conflicts shouldn't be seen as roadblocks but as opportunities for learning and development. For fathers seeking to make meaningful changes, Jason advises starting with a clear vision of what they want their household and relationships to look like, then identifying and overcoming the barriers that stand in their way. The Universal Chaos of Parenting Dr. Christopher Lewis underscored that parenting is a shared experience, often chaotic and busy but profoundly rewarding. Likening it to managing a boat full of "tiny screaming passengers," Dr. Lewis emphasized the importance of being actively involved in all aspects of children's lives—from spending quality time, imparting lessons, and preparing meals, to celebrating special moments. This hands-on approach is essential for building strong father-daughter relationships. A Call to Action for Fathers Both Dr. Lewis and Dr. Jason Frishman called on fathers to be intentional and present in their children's lives. Jason suggested that being a better father and partner involves becoming a stronger, more grounded individual. Overcoming obstacles requires a clear understanding of one's values and the dedication to addressing what hinders their achievement. Intentional Parenting: Building Connections and Having Fun Jason also highlighted the significance of intentionality in parenting. This involves using language consciously, allowing children to have a voice in their upbringing, and ensuring that parenting decisions align with core values. Moreover, he stressed the importance of having fun and enjoying time with family, as these moments create lasting bonds and cherished memories. The Fatherhood Five: Embracing Connections and Small Gestures In the 'Fatherhood Five' segment, Jason shared his personal reflections on fatherhood, describing it as fundamentally about connections. He prides himself on the close relationship his sons share and hopes they would describe him as silly, optimistic, and caring. Jason finds inspiration from his sons, wife, parents, and a close group of male friends, and he holds steadfast to the advice of consistently showing love through small, intentional actions. Dr. Dr. Jason Frishman's insights on the Dads with Daughters podcast offer a compelling vision for modern fatherhood—one rooted in equity, intentionality, and joy. By embracing these principles, fathers can create nurturing environments that foster positive growth and deep connections with their children. To engage more with Jason's work or to access resources on effective fatherhood, visit the Journeymen website or reach out via the contact details provided in the podcast episode. Dr. Jason Frishman was a part of Sarah Maconachie's book of stories about fathers called Working Dads and Balancing Acts.  TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Love being able to be on this journey with you, knowing that you know that I've got 2 daughters. I know that you have daughters. And it is a great opportunity for us to walk on this path together because the journey that I am on is not going to be the same journey that you're on, but we have similarities. There are things that we go through that are similar, and we can learn and grow from each other, and we can learn and grow from other fathers that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way. We can push ourselves to be able to get out of our comfort zone. We can push ourselves to do something different, to be that engaged father, that more present father that we want to be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: And that's why the show exists. The show exists so that every week, you have an opportunity to take what you're learning and put it into action, to be able to hear from others that have gone before you that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way, that have different resources that are available to you and can help you in that journey that you're on. So thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being back every week. And I love being able to bring you different guests that are going to be able to help you in different ways. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Jason Frischman is with us today. And Doctor. Frischman is a father of 2 sons, but he also works with men that are struggling to balance work and family and that are working to become more confident, connected, and fully alive. And we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about the journey that he's been on as a father, and I'm really looking forward to talking to him today. Jason, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:06]: Excellent. Thank you so much. I'm really glad and looking forward to our conversation. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: Well, I'm excited to have you here today as well. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back. I know you've got some teenagers in the house right now, and I would love to turn the clock back. I said I did say you had sons. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a son. What was going through your head? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:29]: It's a powerful and important question. We didn't find out that the baby was gonna be a son until he was born. And actually his birth story was a really hard one. And so because of everything that was going on, we were planning a home birth and it was all picture perfect and beautiful until it wasn't. And then we wound up in the emergency room at the hospital. And frankly, when I found out he was a boy, that I was having a son, it was the least of my concerns. And we were just so very happy that he was healthy, that my wife was healthy. He fortunately didn't need to spend time in the NICU. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:03]: And so the first and foremost was we have a healthy baby. And the next piece was once it hit that we you know, I had a son. And at that time in my life, working as a psychologist, I worked even then primarily with males, male identifying clients. And so I think when Micah was born, I think I was nonplussed in terms of gender, but I also was like, well, I'm kind of an expert in that, so maybe it'll be easier. Flash forward, it it hasn't been, but that's besides the plight. But the other piece is and this happened more when we had our second son because I think we knew we were only gonna have 2, but having 2 sons, we knew that we have a big responsibility in terms of raising good boys. That is something that I've spent my entire career helping others to do, and it sort of became our turn. And so I think both my wife and I have felt like we were meant to raise good men, and that's why we have 2 sons. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:57]: But we also feel in our risk this responsibility that boys and young men in this culture, they have a lot of work to do. And so we our values and who we are as both humans and parents and friends and etcetera, we wanted our children to be raised a little bit differently. Part of your introduction about, like, parents who do it a little differently. That was a big part of the intention that we have in every developmental stage of our kids' lives. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:23]: So talk to me about parenting a little differently. How do you define that, and what have you tried to do in your sons' lives to parent differently and to allow for them that that difference to be in their life in that regard? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:04:36]: Well, I think the first piece, which sounds very simple and yet has always been very challenging and something that we stay aware of is a lot of what we do, we want to be intentional. Intentionality and transparency are 2 of our common values as parents. And so I'll give a good example. Both my wife and I are trained as narrative therapists. And so in the narrative therapy world, language is very important. We believe that language and stories help derive and and drive reality. Right? And so the language that we use, even when our kids were pre verbal, was very intentional. So for example, at the time, when my first born son was was was born, we made the decision that I would continue working and seeing clients and my wife would stay home. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:05:19]: Now, on the one hand, that is a very typical traditional gender split, but because we are intentional about it, it changed the way we had to talk about what that was like. And so a great example is even when my son was preverbal as an infant, we never used the language of papa's going to work, and we corrected others when they said that. Right? Papa's going to the office. Right? Because saying that I'm going to work, what does that say about my wife who's staying home? Right? And so we were very intentional about the fact that, you know, she was doing more, you know, work if not, you know, as much if not more work than I am. And so we never wanted that language to to build a, a sort of a schema for for our kids where father goes to work, mama stays home. Right? And so intentionality around the language we use, intentionality around, the the products, the the things that we do with our kids, that was always very important. Another another good example is that, you know, I'm big at both of us are big in the food world. I I've been a cook and a chef and I've taught I've used it. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:06:36]: We've had small businesses with food and, you know, food values are very important to us. And so my wife who has been a a vegetarian since 14, she said, most vegetarians choose to be vegetarian. We're raised as omnivores or carnivores, and we choose to be vegetarian. We chose to raise our kids as vegetarian. And when they showed that they sort of understood the values and the ideas and the morals that we were sharing, then they could make their own choice. And right now, both of my kids have chosen to eat meat. My wife actually has started eating meat, and yet we're very intentional. Like at this point, we only eat meat if we know the farmer. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:16]: And in Vermont, we can do that. But most of the time when we go out, we said tell we we're vegetarian because we can't do it otherwise. So these are sort of mundane but important examples. But in terms of parenting differently, we're very intentional, transparent. We're aware of our language and the language we use, especially around gender with our kids. And then the other part is we're very, like I said, transparent. So my kids have always had a voice. Not that, you know, we're the adults and we're in charge, but my kids have always had a voice in in kind of what we do, how we do it. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:53]: They are able and and comfortable to give me feedback. I ask for it as the parent, as the father. And so sometimes I don't always like that, but it but but I but I always welcome the fact that they can tell me or share with me what I'm doing, how that makes them feel, and what it makes them think about. And it gives them a voice and agency and empowers them to grow into themselves in the boundaries that we as the parents have set. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: So talk to me about that intention. And not every father, not every man has gotten to that point where they are doing the same thing or that they are trying or working to build a equitable home in regards to what is happening inside their own home. And we definitely don't see the equity being rewarded from a societal end. So personally, and it may go back to how you were raised, what made you personally decide as a man, as a father, as a husband, that that was important to you and that you wanted to instill that in your own children, and you wanted to break the the societal cycle, let's say, that is out there? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:10]: Wow. That one question we could spend, you know, a lot of time on, but two things. You hit the nail on the head in terms of it does start with my own upbringing and childhood. I would start even with my mother's parents, who've sadly recently both passed away. They were partners in the truest sense of the word. Even as a child, I remember that. The 2 of them sat down and did the taxes together. My grandmother, in a time when that didn't really happen, she was as aware of the money and the investments and that, you know, she was as aware of that, if not more than my grandfather. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:43]: And they were real partners. There's a great story is my grandfather drove me to college when I graduated high school. My parents were working. And I recently asked, I said, was grandma there? Did she go too? And my mom was like, of course, they did everything together. They were real partners. So that was the model I got from my grandparents. My parents, very, very similar. At one point, my mom went back to grad school and said, if y'all wanna eat, you better learn how to cook. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:07]: And my father learned how to cook. And so I always witnessed this sort of working towards equality and working towards an awareness of how we are at home and how the society at large is, and just the strength and courage it takes to do things differently. So that has always been a part of the way I look at the world. And then of course, you know, I I grew up trained as a psychologist. I try I got my master's and my doctorate and was always leaning. I used to joke that as a psychologist, I'm sort of a social worker in psychologist clothing. I have always been someone who looks towards social justice and equality and has been impacted by the inequality and the the sort of oppression and challenges that are led. And then, because of my working with boys and men for so many years, I'm a white man in this culture. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:56]: And having the background that I have, that has all become very prominent. And really, I find it to be one of the most vital issues in our culture today is the level that patriarchy has damaged both men, boys, and subsequently, every you know, families. And so it has become a real passion of mine to work for equality and just intentionality in the way that we use language and and work with gender. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:23]: So as you think about raising your sons, and as you talked about, you're raising your sons in a different way and challenging them and pushing them and encouraging them in different ways in the way that they are being raised. As you look at your biggest fear in raising them today? When I was young, my mom do you remember the 2? Fear in raising them today? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:11:44]: When I was young, my mom do you remember the TV show Family Ties? Yep. So when I was young and I was a very liberal, even more so than my parents, progressive kind of thinker, all these things, my mom used to tease me that I was gonna get an Alex P. Keaton furissa. And that's not my worry. I don't think that's gonna happen. But I do worry that the strength and presence of my kids is going to be battered at from a larger society. I mean, we have purposefully, like, you know, my kids have been in a bubble. Like we encourage childhood in a very solid way. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:12:18]: And we live in a rural town in a small state that is very white. And, you know, we've done our best to expose them to the world, and we talk politics. You know, we share things with them. But I guess my my my, one of my big fears or worries is that when they go out into the world, will they have enough of a solid foundation to stand on when they're hit with much of the mainstream ethos and pathos, you know, frankly. How will they hold up? Now, if the way they say it up to me is any indication, I think we'll be fine. But I do worry sometimes that the the sort of mainstream masculine way of being expectations and roles will beat them down a little bit. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:58]: I appreciate you sharing that. Now I mentioned at the beginning that you work with men and that you are working with them, with individuals that are struggling to balance work and family and be connected and confident and helping them to, as I said, fully alive. Talk to me about how you got into this work and why you decided that working with men and creating journeymen was something that was a passion area and was something that you really wanted to focus on? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:13:31]: So I've been a therapist. I've been as a psychologist, I've been working for about 25 years, and almost exclusively with boys, men, and families. And when I started my career, I'm naively embarrassed to share that I started my career and said I'm always gonna work with kids because if you're an adult and you're a jerk, it's too late for you. Now that is really naive to say, you know, 25 years later, I'm embarrassed that that was my way of thinking. I was saying that to justify that I love working with kids, but I had my own kids and I really wanted to save my sort of child energy for my kids and the community that we have. So I started working with older men and eventually sort of landed on men and fathers as a way of working. And as that was developing, as I was then specializing in learning and doing a lot of research on masculine psychology and sociology, you know, all of these things. I also simultaneously was going through a change in the narratives that I work with, that I love. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:14:26]: So you may have heard of the hero's journey. It is a narrative that is sort of ubiquitous in our culture. It's all the the Pixar movies, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, all of these things. I love that narrative. I wrote my dissertation from the metaphor of that narrative, and it probably was 85 to 95% of all of the interventions, questions, and and work that I did was based around a really in-depth learning of the hero's journey. That said, about 15 years ago, something hit me. Part of narrative therapy is this idea of questioning taken for granted stories. So in professional honesty, I had to question my own favorite narrative, the hero's journey. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:15:04]: Long story short, I actually now feel that although I still love The Hero's Journey, it's actually not complete. And the fact that it is so omnipresent is actually quite damaging to boys and men. And the fact that our primary narrative models tell us that we either have to be epic or legendary in order to be worthy is really troubling and damaging to men who, most men who are going to work and coming home and you know, doing the dishes and things like that. And so the challenge or the the passion part of developing journeyman came from working more and more with men and fathers and finding how powerful that work was. It came from developing a counternarrative to the hero's journey, which I now call foundational adventures. And it came to this idea of like listening to men who, you know, may be super successful at work, but then they come home and they're lost. They come home and they're stuck. They come home and where's my place? There's a fact, a detail that I remember reading somewhere. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:16:01]: I won't use the exact numbers because I'll get it wrong, but there is a large amount of men who are largely spending more time at home than ever before, which we might think, hey. That's wonderful. And it is. But there's also hasn't been the equal amount of growth and development for father about what to do when they're at home. So that they're staying more at home. Some guys are getting it lucky and doing well and and being real present to their kids. But many men are staying at or or at home more with their kids, but coming at it with the same mindset mentality and social training that we've had for the last 100 years, which means that they're at home more and there's more opportunities to make trouble or mistakes or propagate this sort of mindset. And so the idea for me is that Journeymen was, how do we write new narratives for masculinity and fatherhood that involve and include a partnership at home and honor going and battling dragons or being off at work doing things and really developing deeper, more meaningful stories for men who just like everyone else on the planet, need emotional connections, strong deep depth of relationships, and love, frankly. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]: And talk to me about over the years, you've been doing this journeyman work since 2019 when you started things. And I'm sure over the time and over working with men in this work that you learned a lot more about men, but also more about yourself. And talk to me about that. And what have been some of the biggest takeaways for yourself as a father, a husband, a man that you're putting now into place in your own life and some of the things that you're learning about the work that you're doing and some of the biggest struggles that men are struggling with? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:17:46]: The front of mind answer around learnings for me personally that I'm learning from the work and then bringing it home and then bring it back to the work deep in it is none of us are done. I think I'm pretty conscientious. I'm pretty aware. You know, all of these things, and I am. And yet recently, my wife and I had a huge argument about something that was very based in sort of sexism, very based in my unwillingness to be open to a partnership, ideal. And frankly, initially, when she said it that way, I was offended. Like, I wasn't open. I do this work every day. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:18:21]: And, you know, all of a sudden, I'm getting called out for something. And once I breathed, once I, like, let it sort of settle a little bit, it was really powerful for me to say, okay, you're right. Some of this patriarchal thought or dominance based culture, however we wanna talk about it, is so deeply embedded in all of us. And so for me, it's that there's always growth, potential, and possibility. And I've been using this statement a lot both at work and at home, but the magic and the treasure is in the muck. There's this narrative. There's this story in our culture that it'll be good when. As long as I get to blank or once I turn blank, you know, like, once I get to the end, it'll be better. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:00]: And I think there's such a problematic ideology there. And so a lot of it is in the muck, in the marshes, in the trouble. That's where the magic is. That's where the treasure is. And so one of the best learnings that came from that that I bring back to the work at Journeyman is we do a lot of values work. You know, let's learn what's important to us. And I do something called the values compass. It's an exercise where we pick 4 values that are can be visibly expressed, that I can see, right? Not this big ethereal, vague value, but something that is real can be specific. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:36]: And I have the guys pick 4 values that are inherently connected to the goal, the treasure that they're working on. And we put them in a compass. Well, what we've started to talk about in addition to the magic is in the muck is that our values are both the directional points and the steps on your path on your journey and the treasure. So if I'm following my values, number 1, I know the right direction and choices to make. But number 2, if I'm following my values, I'm feeling better. I'm doing better. I'm acting better. So I've actually achieved my goal on the way towards achieving my goal. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:14]: And so that you're always going up and down with that. It's a challenge and it's it's terribly difficult to live your values in the everyday. And so when we're doing it, let's recognize it and say, oh, I found a treasure. I've hit a goal. Now it's time to get back to it because I gotta keep walking. I'm in the muck. Right? And so it's nothing new. It's nothing some it's not an insight that I think I've developed. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:34]: I mean, Buddhists have lots of people have used it forever. I think there's a saying, no mud, no lotus. That's in a saying. Same kind of thing is that our challenges, our arguments, our conflicts are is always an opportunity for growth, and that's where the treasure is. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:47]: I love that. And I love that statement because I think you're completely right. I mean, there is a lot of muck that we go through in being fathers and being men. I guess one of the questions that I would have for you in the work that you're doing is there are going to be fathers that have not worked with you, but are thinking to themselves, you know what? There's some things that we that I could maybe be doing here based on what Jason's saying. What are some initial steps, some things that they could do right now today that could get them moving in at least the right direction? It may still mean that they wanna work with you down the road, but at least to have either an internal dialogue or have something that will allow for them to push themselves in the right direction in this regard. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:21:30]: I think the first step and and I have guys do this early on in the work anyway, and I I it's I think it's really important. There's there's 2 different things to become aware of. The first is what do we want? And I can blow that out. What kind of father do I wanna be? What kind of sons or daughters do I wanna raise? Not that I have much control over that, but in an ideal sense, what would I like to give to my kids? What kind of legacy do I wanna to share with them? What kind of values do I want to do I want to exist in my household? And really taking a look at what I would like that to be. How I would like do I want a household where after dinner, everybody's sitting on the same couch looking at their phones? Do I wanna have a household where everybody goes back to their rooms and does whatever, but we're not connected? Do I wanna have some mixture of that, but also, like, I don't know, we're playing board games at night or whatever, but, like, real specific, what do I want my household, my home to look like? And how do I want the relationships of the people who I purport to love the most? How do I want them to be? So I want first to ask men, how do you get clear on that? Do you want to spend your time tinkering in the garage or do you wanna be with the kids? Do you want what do you want? Do you want more intimacy with your wife? I had one guy who joined Journeyman said, I want my kids to be as comfortable holding my hand at 22 as they are at 12 and that they were at 2 and he said doesn't have to be literally holding my hands, but metaphorically, I want them to have that same level of comfort throughout their life. And that was his goal. That was his treasure. So I wanna encourage fathers to think about what are the ongoing relational goals that they have in their home, with their partner, with their kids, with themselves. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:15]: So that would be step 1. And step 2 would be, what's getting in the way? And it's time to be radically honest with yourselves, guys. Right? What is getting in the way? Let's just use the example of not wanting everyone to be on their own phones and to be dialoguing or spending time together or doing something. What's really getting in the way? Starting with you and the other adults in the house. If you look at yourself, a lot of journeymen, a lot of the work there, I always am very explicit. It's not a parenting group. We talk about parenting. We talk about that. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:43]: It's not about getting your kids to eat vegetables or go to bed on time, or learn to drive the car responsibly. It's men's work. It's about you being a stronger, more present, grounded man who can be in relationship, who can be in partnership. And so with that, you're gonna be a better father. You're gonna be a better partner. You're gonna be a better, more present to everything that's going on. So to answer your question more succinctly is get it clear with what you want at home and get clear about what you really give a shit about and what's getting in the way. What's getting in the way? What are the obstacles? Right? Are you too tired? Are you too stressed? Are you is your own pattern to isolate when things happen? Is your own pattern to get reactive? What is the thing that keeps you from those goals that you're looking for and name it. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:24:26]: Can't tell you how important that is. Once you name the obstacle, you have some control over it. And I've had clients who, once they identify it, really understand it and give it a name, I've had clients tell me like, oh my god, things are so much better. Just because they start to notice and they start to give something a name, you have some power. So those would be the 2 steps that I would suggest anyone can start to get a handle on before even getting into this work more deeply. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:48]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is a journey and definitely something that will take time and effort, and you may have to get out of some bad practices or bad ruts that your family might have gotten into, especially over COVID or other aspects that change things. You know, you may have to make some adjustments within your home and really think deeply about where you want to be, where you are right now, as Jason already said. Now, Jason, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:22]: Before you start, can I add one thing? It'll be very quick. I am realizing I'm reflecting even on what I said, and it all sounds very heady and up here. More importantly or most importantly is, like, having some fun. I think so much of what men do is we go to work, we come home, we discipline, we but have fun with your family. Like, you love them. Have fun with them. And I just think that so much of the work, while it has this real heady, deep depth underground, a lot of the work, especially at Journeyman, is around fun. It's around metaphor. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:53]: It's around being silly. It's around all those things. And so I can't emphasize that enough is that men need to be having more fun. So anyway, the fatherhood 5 we can get into, but I didn't wanna not say that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:05]: Connections. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:06]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:10]: I watch my 2 sons being friends. They're 3 and a half years apart and they're buddies. They really are. And they admit it. They like to admit it. They'll argue like other brothers, but they are close. And I watch them. My parents did the same thing, but I, my wife and I always said, we would love for our boys to be aligned together even more than they're aligned with us, and truly they are. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:31]: And so that that's a success. That's a big win for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]: If I were to talk to your sons, how would they describe you as a dad? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:38]: It depends on the day. I think they would say that I'm silly. I am annoyingly optimistic and positive. I love to cook and I love to take care of them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:49]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:51]: Well, they do for 1, for sure. My wife does. My own parents do. And I'm really fortunate, actually. I have a close group of male friends. And the depth of friendship that I with them is unusual. And I don't take it for granted, but all of them are either fathers or uncles and are good men. And so there's a mutual, like, love, respect, and inspiration in terms of doing better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:13]: You've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for people to think about and to delve a little bit deeper into their own psyche and themselves to figure out kind of where they're at and where they wanna be. But as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:27:28]: Hug and kiss your kids and say the words I love you. I mean it, of course, but I think the small actions count. I think the piece of advice is really hug, kiss, and saying I love you can be lots of things, but the small intentional and consistent actions are more important than any grandiose gesture that you can do. We're working at a long term deep foundation. And so if you want your kids to be the kind of humans that you're hoping for and to have a relationship for life, then play the lifelong game. And so small, consistent, intentional actions are really the way to go. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]: Now we talked about Journeyman. We talked about the work that you're doing. If people wanna find out more about you, about Journeymen, where's the best place for them to go? Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:13]: The 2 places. First is I live on the website, so journeymenfoundation dotcom. The other piece is right now, I say sometimes we, but it's really me. So if you email jason@nourished connections.com, you'll get me directly. And I I really enjoy connecting with people who are either fathers or who love fathers and wanna be supportive. And so those are the 2 most direct ways, but I'm also on social media. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. And one thing that I would offer is, and I can send you a link afterwards, is I did put together this sort of it's the 10 fastest, most effective ways that fathers can connect with their kids. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:49]: And it's all about the small, consistent actions. I do every single one of them. So this isn't just something I write about. I'm also the president. And so I can send the link to that and people are more than welcome to as soon as you when you go to that link, you can download that copy. Every single one on there, I think I timed it once. If you did all 10, I think there's a bonus 11. But if you did all 10, it's less than 12 minutes every day. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]: I love it, and we'll definitely add it to the notes today and add it in so everyone can take 10 minutes to reconnect and to better connect with your kids. Jason, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best. Dr. Jason Frishman [00:29:27]: Oh, thank you so much. This has been great. I really appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:29]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Them. Be the best dad you can be.

A Heartfelt Conversation In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Gerard Gousman to explore the unique experiences and challenges he faces as a father of four sons. Gerard shares his heartfelt insights and practical advice, making this episode a must-listen for every dad striving to be the best parent they can be. Let's dive into the critical themes and topics discussed during their engaging conversation. Reflecting on the Initial Stages of Fatherhood Gerard Gousman opens up about his initial reactions to becoming a father. The mix of excitement, fear, and overwhelming responsibility is something many new dads can resonate with. "It's like stepping into a world where you have no previous experience," says Gerard, reflecting on the early days of fatherhood. As he navigated through sleepless nights and constant second-guessing, Gerard began to understand the profound and rewarding nature of being a dad. The Dynamics of Parenting at Different Stages Parenting isn't a 'one size fits all' journey, and Gerard underscores this by discussing the differences in parenting toddlers, preteens, and teenagers. He highlights the importance of flexibility and adaptation, learning to adjust his parenting style to each child's unique needs and communication preferences. By doing so, Gerard has been able to maintain close relationships with his kids, fostering an environment where they feel safe and understood. Embracing Technology and Remote Living With the shift to remote work and education, Gerard speaks on the challenges and opportunities this new dynamic brings. Living in a more remote setting has highlighted the importance of balancing screen time with physical activity and real-world interactions. Gerard emphasizes finding creative solutions to keep his children engaged and active, such as outdoor adventures and tech-free family time. The Pressures and Expectations of Fatherhood One of the most relatable aspects of Gerard's story is his fear of not meeting the high standards and expectations of modern fatherhood. "There's always this lingering worry—am I doing enough?" Gerard admits candidly. Over time, he learned that striving for perfection isn't sustainable. Instead, he focuses on being present and consistent, realizing that it's the simple, everyday moments that matter most. Creating Wins and Building a Cool Dad Reputation A shining light in Gerard's journey is his 'cool dad' win at the trampoline park. Taking his 7-year-old and a friend out for some jumping fun led to high praise from the friend, labeling Gerard as the "coolest dad at school." This moment encapsulates the joy of being an involved parent and solidifies Gerard's belief in the importance of participating in his children's interests. Finding Inspiration and Support Gerard draws inspiration from his children's growth and positivity and from other supportive dads who share their journeys. He emphasizes the importance of finding a community, whether through local groups or online platforms. These connections offer a sense of belonging and a wealth of shared knowledge, making the challenges of fatherhood feel less isolating. Advice for New Dads: Stay Happy and True to Yourself To new fathers, Gerard offers sage advice: "Don't lose yourself after becoming a father. Your happiness is crucial for your family's well-being." He encourages dads to pursue their interests and maintain their personal happiness, which in turn creates a more joyful and balanced family environment. Transitioning Careers for Family Gerard's decision to transition from a high-pressure career in the event management and music industry to being a stay-at-home dad speaks volumes about his commitment to his family. He discusses the fear of missing out (FOMO) and the challenges of shifting focus from an active social lifestyle to home life. Parenthood required him to reevaluate his priorities and embrace a new, fulfilling role. Navigating Family Dynamics and Individual Needs Understanding that each child is unique, Gerard keeps notes on his children's favorite things to use as points of connection when other communication methods fail. This personalized approach has helped him navigate tough conversations and strengthen his bond with each child. Advocating for At-Home Dads Gerard has become a vocal advocate for at-home dads, participating in a New York Times article to challenge stereotypes. His efforts have been met with positive responses from friends and other fathers, underscoring the value of representation and community. The Role of Community in Fatherhood Finding a supportive Fatherhood community, like the National At Home Dad Network and local dad groups, has been instrumental in Gerard's journey. He emphasizes the importance of reaching out and connecting with others who understand and appreciate the unique challenges and rewards of fatherhood. The Simple Joys of Fatherhood For Gerard, fatherhood in one word is "amazing." It's the little victories, the shared laughs, and the opportunity to watch his children grow that make the journey so rewarding. As he continues to adapt and learn, Gerard remains a beacon of positivity and strength for his family. In summary, Gerard Gousman's journey is a powerful reminder that fatherhood, with all its ups and downs, is an ever-evolving adventure. His insights and experiences provide invaluable lessons for dads at any stage, encouraging them to embrace the journey with an open heart and a flexible mindset.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dance with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. You know, every week, I love being able to sit down and talk with you, to work with you, to help you on this journey that you're on. Each one of us is on a unique journey. And you have daughters, I have daughters, but we learn from each other. We learn from others. And the more that we're willing to step out and hear what others have to say, step out and take in that learning, take in what others have to say, the more that you're going to be able to be that engaged dad, and that father that you want to be to your children. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different perspectives and, and different from different walks of life that have gone through either fatherhood in a different way have different resources that they can share. And I love being able to do that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Because, as I said, each one of us is on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other and we can help each other along the way. This week, we got another great guest with us. Gerard Guzman is with us today. Gerard is a father of 4 sons. And you might be saying, well, this is the dads with daughters podcast. Why are we having a father of sons here? Well, there's a reason and we're gonna be talking about that. Gerard went through his own journey as a working dad that made some choices, made some choices to be that active, engaged dad that he wanted to be and may have made some choices that you might have made or might not have made. We're gonna talk about that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: And I'm really excited to have him here, be able to share his story, learn a little bit more about him. Gerard, thanks so much for being here today. Gerard Gousman [00:01:53]: Thanks for having me.  Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to have you on and being able to learn more about you. 1st and foremost, I love being able to start the podcast with the opportunity to go back in time, get in the in that proverbial time machine. I want to go all the way back. I know you've got kids that range from 22 months all the way to 22 years. So I want to go back maybe 23 years, I want to go back to that first moment that you you found out that you were going to be a father. What was going through your head? Gerard Gousman [00:02:19]: For the first time, I was young. I was in college scared, excited, hopeful. It was there from was the experience of not knowing what was ahead of me, but, like, alright. Trying to figure out, alright. How can how do I do this? How do I be a dad? And I look at the examples of examples around me and okay. To figure out how long if I take a little piece of pieces of this from the different dads I know and trying to grab what I thought was right. And, of course, none of us do it right. It's from the start. So got that knocked myself off, knocked my dust myself off, and got back up and keep trying it again and again until some point in the next couple weeks. I think I may get it right. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:55]: I'll have to check back with you in that few weeks and see if you actually hit that point because I don't know if any of us do it right all the time. And we definitely stumble, fall, pick ourselves back up, as you said. And our kids are gonna be the first ones to point out when we make mistakes. So that's definitely the case. Now, as I said, you've got kids that range from 22 years to 22 months. And with each and every child, you have to parent in a little bit different way. And you've learned things along the way, but you've got a very young child and a child that's potentially out of the nest in regards to grown, flown, starting his adult life now. So talk to me about what you've learned along the way and how you're parenting your 22 month old now differently than you may have parented your 22 year old. Gerard Gousman [00:03:44]: Yeah. It's definitely a much different world now, physical world and just my immediate world where I'm coming from then being young and my experience, all things that come with being a young adult in a big city and trying to do that. And it was also at the time of really starting. I was in music and college and working in marketing. Just Just starting out working in marketing in events and just trying to navigate and figure out what I was gonna be and what I was gonna do. And some of the experiences I have always been of the mind is bring trying to do as much as you can to marry marry my worlds together. I was trying to bring the kids out into the events and never use that having kids excuse to not be able to do something that you probably could do with them. That's something I've always tried to maintain with of showing my kids as much of the world and as many different experiences as I can. Gerard Gousman [00:04:39]: And still to this day doing that, but a bit differently, plus the mix of technology, and we're a little more remote than we were then. And starting out, I was with in Chicago, it's so close to a lot of family. But now remote here in the on the West Coast, and most of my family is still Midwest and back east. So it's completely different raising the family, raising kids away from the family, and not having a strong of a communal family support. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]: Now you mentioned at the beginning when you first had your first child, you were definitely a little bit scared. And I think there's some fear that goes along with every father, Whether you have daughters, whether you have sons, in some aspect, when you bring a new child into the world, there's always some fear. What was your biggest fear in being a father? Gerard Gousman [00:05:22]: A lot. I think of not being able to hold up to the standards that I had, I guess, as a kid, like, what the ideal dad was. Like, when I grow up, when I have kids, I'm never gonna yell, and I'm gonna always be there, and I'm always gonna be smart, and I'm gonna trust my kids and know all the things that you wanted as a child from your parents. I'm like, I'm gonna be that parent. Like, how do I hold up to be that parent that I wanted as a kid? And then I realized, like, that's not realistic. You you quickly learn, like, oh, that's why they were always tired. That's why they were always yelling. Like, in retrospect, that was very dangerous. It's finding that out that I could try to bring in those parts of me that I wanted to mold and have my parenting style being able to live up to that standard. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:13]: Now with the fact that your children are at different points, different ages, different experience levels, and you look at that fear now in regard to what you've gone through. Is the fear that you have as a father different for your 22 month old in the life that he will have versus the fear that you have now for your adult son? Gerard Gousman [00:06:35]: Think of are you thinking in in time that learn to be a lot more flexible and not take not take the losses as hard. And sometimes, like, I take the stumbles as much. I mean, there's simply times where you do everything you can and things don't work out, but you say, alright. Didn't work out this time. How do I learn from this experience and use it to parent better down the road? So going back to things I thought of with now with my now 7 year old being the 1st grader and thinking back to when my oldest was in that age and trying not to put as much pressure, like, that pressure to be the best student and be the nicest kid and be perfect in public and be respectful. Be always be as respectful as possible and and to try to keep them as polished they could. And now being a point of letting them breathe and kinda learn their own way and instilling those the same principles in them, but not instilling the pressure as much. I wanna know that, yeah, it's okay to take those missteps and but being able to be open and and be able to come back to us as parents and know that we have that support level of support that I don't think I instilled in my kids, in my older kids when they were younger. Gerard Gousman [00:07:52]: It's kinda that these are your benchmarks. You gotta hit them. You gotta hit them. And now it's like, alright. If you don't, that's okay. We can find a way to make up the gap. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:00]: And kinda chuckling to myself because I think as you go through life as a parent, and I I could just imagine your oldest son saying to you, you were so much harder on me and you kept me to a different standard than than you're holding to my younger siblings. And you do. You know, it's not that you're favoring one than another, but you learn. And as you said, you become more laid back, I believe. The more fathers that I talk to, the more kids that they have, I think the more laid back they do become. Gerard Gousman [00:08:28]: Yeah. And then the thing of knowing how like, in the beginning, you don't know what the outcome or outcomes be, but outcomes will be. But as it goes on, you kinda you understand the patterns. You see the algorithm of life. And, like, okay. I know where before I had to make the 6 or 7 steps. I know that 2 or 3 of those steps weren't really important and kinda slowed things up. So now being able to have been able to more fine tune things in real time and just being more aware of those benchmarks that we like I said before about trying to hit those and not it's not always the most important thing. Sometimes the trying is enough. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:03]: Now I know that or you, as you said, you were a employee for many years, you worked out in the world, doing event management, Salt N Pepper, Cat Power. I mean, lots of artists that were out there. You were traveling a lot, and at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that some changes need to be had, and you needed to be closer to home. You needed to be able to be more a part of the family. Talk to me about that internal conversation you had to have, the conversation you had to have with your wife as well to think about this in a different scenario that made you make some choices that were going to substantially change your life and change your family's life? Gerard Gousman [00:09:50]: Yeah. Well, I think into that point, it was sitting around the birth of my 3rd, and the 2nd one's went through, and it was kinda wandering in between, I guess, seasons. I guess the way the event seasons go, it's kinda like the tail end and starting I don't know. I wanted to be there and support my wife as much as I could that and doing the beginning of the maternity leave and school being able to really be a part of the moments, all of the pre visits and all that stuff and really having the excitement of the pregnancy. That's not that I missed out by. My other 2 was just, like, being out on the road and traveling and not being able to be there for the earliest moments. And once it got to that point of, like, seeing it, I knew I could be there. And one of the things made it a lot easier is is the decision to be able to support my wife in her career. Gerard Gousman [00:10:38]: And she she was on the upper trajectory. And Shrunkar Bennett really got into a point where she was really making strides and wanted to be able to support her in that and give that example for the kids as well. Like, I know I could do this and with cards on the table and look to see what our strengths were. It's like, yeah. I I can do this and give you that so you need to go back and focus on your career and or can I can hold it down here and still be able to do things that I needed to do for myself? And when it I think I've built a strong relationship with my wife, and we are to the point that we are very open communicators in regards to what our immediate needs are. Like, we tend to check-in with each other, and where it may not be something long gone or drawn out, we know when something's not right and, like, always we try to stay on the same page much as possible. And I think that helped make the transition a lot easier, just knowing that I can instill a system, and we have our routines in the house, and it makes us it could be able to flow. And we are able to still have a lot of the things that we loved about life before. Gerard Gousman [00:11:41]: Like, we're avid campers, and we like to travel. And being able to do that stuff with the kids while they're young, I think, has been great for me. Like, definitely a lot of those day to day, like, month to month, the growing things, like, being able to notice little height differences. Like, that arm's longer than it was a few weeks ago. And having full conversations with the baby, and actually, like, because I'm with because I'm with him, I understand what he's saying. And so you're having those things that priceless and suits so valuable, and, like, I know you never get that time. It's really knowing the value of the time. It's been more valuable than however much I would have made out there in the field. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:21]: So talk to me a little bit about that transition, that transition from work at work outside of the house, traveling, working in the industry, working with artists, you know, that high pressure, high paced life to transitioning to home and being that stay at home dad where you're running the household, keeping things running while your wife is working on her career. What was the hardest part for you in making that transition? And what were some of the things that you had to fundamentally change to be able to help you to make that transition? Gerard Gousman [00:12:52]: Honestly, coming from for being, very active and constantly out, going out 3, 4 nights a week even when I'm not wasn't working or I wasn't traveling. Still going home and being active in my local art and music event scene. There's no stand abreast. You gotta keep your faces in a place to be active. You're not around. You're not in. Right? So it's coming from making just that desire and having that FOMO was the big thing of man, I'm missing out on a lot of stuff, all those opportunities. And it's it's like the music festivals and concerts and stuff. Gerard Gousman [00:13:26]: It's that high energy. Always go, never knowing exactly what's gonna be next, which some days, that's what it's like around here. And, see, see, making that transition was not as hard as I thought it would be at first using a lot of the things that I learned on the day to day managing the field, the schedules, and having those routines, dealing with wrangling wild and unruly staff and artists. I'm like, it's pretty much what I'm doing here, keeping everything afloat. It's that mode of getting into not having that FOMO and finding what elements of that former life can I bring in? I guess the biggest thing is just that missing out on the activity of being around the my peers. I think that was the hardest part of the disconnect of the transition of not being having that peer relationship. As much as I could, we could go out and take kids to do stuff, but kinda hard to have that feel. Getting over that and finding supplements and finding community and that were more in tune with that part of my lifestyle. Gerard Gousman [00:14:30]: It has been good and just working with the National At Home Dad Network, and I that was a godsend for me, being able to find find the group. And, like, man, there's a whole community of dads out there. It kinda opened me up to me to see, like, yeah. I'm not as isolated in this as I believe I was in the beginning. That's that made things so much easier, designing was really being able to know that I could go out and find the communities if I look for them. And then once I found a couple of places to be able to places to commiserate or places to share what, for me, it would have been a big win. Like, hey. Today today was a no blowout day. Gerard Gousman [00:15:09]: First no blowout day. That's a big deal. My all working, partying event friends were like, no. That's they don't care about them. Like, so finding people that what are my constituted a big win in my current life, finding a community that understood those moments. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: So talk to me about community because you mentioned that you got connected at the national level with the At Home Dad Network and how we've had some past guests from the At Home Debt Network on the show. Talk to me about finding that community, what you had to do to find that community, not only nationally through the work that you're doing on the board of the At Home Dad Network now, but but even locally of being able to find those peers or those other dads that were going through similar things that you could start to have a new community for yourself. What did you have to do to be able to initially find that community and then build, hone, and grow that community for yourself? Gerard Gousman [00:16:04]: Kinda funny. I use some of the things that I would use initially in, like, having events and finding the different event communities and nightlife sectors. They're just going going through and mining through Facebook and different like Facebook and Tumblr and Reddit and looking for those communities and realizing that there are thriving online communities of engaged, active fathers and really putting myself out there and, like, hey, this is what I'm looking for. This is this is what I'm struggling with. These are the problems I'm having. Anybody ever experienced this? And and then finding there's 100 guys like, yeah. Last week, that was me. Exactly that. Gerard Gousman [00:16:42]: Last week. We do that both finding that online community, but finding that those those guys were here in my state, in in my in town and going in, like, alright. Putting myself out there. Hey, you guys. Let's get together. Let's meet. Let's go out and do some media at the park or the toddler gym or we should get out and have a beer or something. And when I took it on myself to really throw myself into it, like, if I don't put myself out there and find it, it's not going it's not just gonna come to and knowing that I was struggling with that disconnect, with that FOMO, just like and having that having that backup. This is something that's not ideas off of with other dads. Once I found myself really being able to throw myself into it and reach out to other dads that I knew, like, a and ask them, like, hey. Are you suffering with the same stuff that I have? And, like, no. No. I'm good. Well, actually, yeah. I didn't wanna say anything, but, yeah, I feel that too in, like, of having friends that, like, man, you know what? Let me check on some of my mom check on my dad friends. And, like, I know how I'm feeling. Let me check up on them. And then once doing that, like, seeing it there like, yeah, a lot of us were having that same thing, but, like, not feeling that we had anybody to talk to. So I might try to invite them into different spaces or just always make make myself available to be a space for my immediate community of dads. Then I've gone on to, like, join my local PTA and try being more active in my kids' school and work with some of the dads there to have more of the fathers on campus and doing doing things and more active in the events. And that has helped. Definitely had comments from other dads in the school. Gerard Gousman [00:18:21]: And it's great to see you always there. Like, I was nervous about going because it's always just the moms, but seeing you in in it and active, like, made me feel okay. Alright? There'll at least be somebody another dad there to talk to. And and every time now I go out, go to pick up the kids, like, hey, man. I see some of the dads, like, hey, we doing this or something. Just checking in on how you doing. Like, not how you doing, but how are you? And checking in on the other day, that's when I see them at pick up and inviting them into the spaces in school and and know, like, hey, it's not a spady thing. They're not gonna load up on you. Gerard Gousman [00:18:48]: Be more active. You got to support. There's other guys here that get it. And we're starting to start to have more of the dads in our school community be more active and stepping up and taking a lead on things. So that's been great to see. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:05]: Yeah. It's so exciting to to hear that you're finding that community. I think that whether you're working or not, it's so important to find a community that you connect with and don't go through fatherhood feeling like you have to do everything by yourself because so many times men step into fatherhood thinking, I've got to know everything. I've got to be that expert. I've got to be the man per se. And you don't you don't have to be the man. You can be a man and know that there are so many other people right around your block or in your apartment complex. No matter where you live that are going through similar things, you just have to reach out and you have to talk to them and just kinda, Gerard, like you said, just say, how are you and truly be willing to ask the question and see and understand and connect on that deeper level. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:59]: So, Gerard, one of the things that I guess that I would ask is now you've got kids at different ages. They're involved in so many different things. The personalities are probably very different from one another. How do you keep that connection and build those unique relationships with each of your kids? Gerard Gousman [00:20:17]: That part definitely difficult, especially once the teenage years and they grow and get their independence, and they construct their own communities. I think I always tap in and let them know I relate to what's going on. I try to I'll let them know, like, I'm always available to talk. Especially for the older kids, like, we don't talk as much and maybe a like my 16 year old. Gerard Gousman [00:20:42]: Are you good? I'm cool. Alright. Tell me about your day. What's we gonna tell me about your week. Alright. Anything new? No. And I'm like, alright. So I'll check-in next month. They're going through and make it a point of having to go on to the, like, all the the school forums and following the the different school Facebook groups and different stuff. Like, I'm like, you got a key from the mayor? Why didn't you tell anybody? Like, it wasn't a big deal. What? The mayor came to send me a school and no. You didn't you didn't wanna tell anybody that that was happening. Like, that isn't a big deal. Well, at least put on a nice shirt that day. So things like that. Like, wanting to be open when I can. I know, not the hippest. They're definitely difficult across but they're totally different generations, I guess. If you ask them, they're totally different generations. What worked with the oldest, I mean, I know I could even work with the 16 year old and between the 16 and the 17 year old. Gerard Gousman [00:21:36]: The way I could communicate and relate with 1 to a totally different approach to the other. And so I'm going through and finding those personality points and being able to figure out, adjust, and tweak my parenting style for each of them. Just realizing that, alright, the way I can talk to one isn't the same as other. Like, one, I can go through and ask something, and they'll just ramble on and tell you all the detail. Another one, it puts pulling teeth. You're asking it's 50 questions. It's 50 questions together. How was your day? Just to get to that point. Gerard Gousman [00:22:08]: And so finding a way that it each communicates and how to research. I wanna watch videos and read articles and Internet snooping and going on to TikTok and Instagram and going through the trends, like, alright. What did I hear them mention? They're in, like, alright. And just trying to stay abreast of what's what's hip in their different areas. Like, alright. What's hip for the in this age group? What's hip in this age group? And how just using those little points I can to as a point of relation to open them up because I may ask a bunch of questions, but then I may mention something about this one artist. And that may be the thing that unlocks that that window that was shut in with blinds and locked and curtains across it. Now our sun's coming right on in now. Gerard Gousman [00:22:54]: It's like, oh, yeah. Gerard Gousman [00:22:55]: That's my favorite song. I was thinking about that. You know what? I was talking to my friends today. You know, we were thinking about going to Greece. I'm like, oh, I Gerard Gousman [00:23:01]: asked you, had you heard this song? All the information I've been trying to get out of you for a month has just come down because I asked you, had you heard this new song? So I'm interested in finding things like that, those little points of connection where I can. And I keep a little Google Keep note list of the things like favorite food and drink orders, and stuff like that. They mentioned this artist one time. Make sure I remember on that. And just jotting down little things for each kid that those bigger points of relation that I can come back to when that normal communication isn't working. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]: So this whole story of what we've been talking about was recently put out in front of the world through a New York Times article. And talk to me about that, and why you chose to be a part of that article, why you wanted your story out there, but also what has come from that story being shared? And what are you hearing not only from people around you, but people broader than in your local community. Gerard Gousman [00:24:02]: Yeah. So, so that was a great opportunity. I was definitely happy to be included. The writer, Kelly Coyne, reached out to me, and we had a great discussion about some of the some of this about my experiences as Gerard Gousman [00:24:15]: a father and just in the changing styles of fatherhood, and wanted to work with the org with that Home Dad Network. That's been one of our mission. Being able to help update that face of parenthood and kinda change the popular conception of at home dads. I wanted to have them be included because it's been an interesting journey for me and having more dads be open about the experience. And we we do we have a lot of that. I definitely have gotten that mister mom comment from strangers and friends alike as both an insult and as a compliment from it being termed as something endearing and something as a joke. And knowing that we'd be able to put to face a fatherhood that can be active in being at home and regularly engage fathers, not just done one way. There's not just one way to do that. Gerard Gousman [00:25:10]: So that's something I wanted to, I guess, give my perspective on, of the way that it works for us versus the way that some other dads mentioned the way that they came to this point of being at home dad and being a primary caregiver. So it was honor to be able to share that perspective. I think having some of the response I've gotten, really great all around, friends, family. But having other guys that I know that were dads reach out, I think that's been the best part of seeing, like, man, that's cool. Like, I really really wish I could do that. Like, I wanna do that, but I don't think I have it in me to be able to teach my kids on the day of having the patience or having a structure and being able to be open with them. It's like, hey. It's it's not all every day is not great. Gerard Gousman [00:25:56]: It's not all wins, but it's all positive. It's all necessary. Like, I am always happy at the end result. Right? And once I you have to have those points hitting those walls and having the end result, like, at the end of day, like, well, it's more worse circumstances we could be in and being happy that I am able to have the opportunity. Having the privilege to be able to be in a position that I can be here and make these mistakes and learn with my family and help my family grow. I guess, I haven't had it's negative. I did have, but I reached out for an interview, and it was kinda the the other side of it, they want it, bro. What's the negative response you've gotten? Like, there hasn't isn't any. Gerard Gousman [00:26:35]: Like, what was the bad part? It's not. It's been great as far as the experience. Of course, there's always small things, family things that happen, but it has been a majorly positive experience because that's what I make it. And it's like if in being able to relate that to other fathers. The experience is gonna be what you make. It's not gonna be easy. It's not gonna be as hard as you think it will be either. It definitely will be the days where you gotta sit in the emergency room after you but you get up early and think you're gonna go to bed early, and it's like next thing, you know, you're up till 3 AM, and you gotta get up at 7 AM the next day. Gerard Gousman [00:27:09]: It's like but you keep going, and you find the time to make your peace. And that's the biggest thing that has made this a positive and more eased experience for me, is the focus that my wife and I put on having our home be a place of peace. And I instillment with the kids. Like, I yell just like most dads, I'm sure, yell. Then circling back on that, circling back. Alright. Oh, bring that back. That's why I yelled. Gerard Gousman [00:27:38]: We need to stop yelling as a collective and learning how to quiet yell. This is something I've been working on with the baby, this quiet yelling with him. Like, you can be you can be mad. You can scream, but don't scream at me. I am so angry right now. Don't do that. Like, see? It still works. He reads the facial. Gerard Gousman [00:27:58]: I'm like, he can read the facial expressions. Okay. Okay. Gerard Gousman [00:28:02]: And so sometimes that he's gonna Gerard Gousman [00:28:04]: go into it, and I'm learning, seeing that he is learning that as well, He's screaming, and then he was I'm like, you're getting it. Okay? So I think I'm a you know, things of being able to share the learnings with so much the with the broader community of dads and parents. But just having that small community of dads that I've been friends with forever coming to me and be like, you know what? I've been struggling. I didn't think I could do this. But, you know, I I read your piece and seen your piece like, man, it's thank you. Thank you for putting on that face for us and know that it is hard and that we can do this. And I think that's been the best response for me was having dads that that I knew come to me and, like, that's it right there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Okay. In one word, what is fatherhood? Gerard Gousman [00:28:57]: Yes. What indeed? It's it is a constant what. Amazing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:03]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father? Gerard Gousman [00:29:07]: Sometime between 3 and 3:15. Last week, I figured a point to kinda catalog my wins so that on those bad days, those those days I'll take the l, I can draw back to them. So I had one last week. I took my 7 year old and one of his friends, one of his classmates. They were on spring break last week. Took him took him to trampoline par, and it's how seeing how happy they were and having the friend comment like, gee, I always knew you were the coolest dad at school. Gerard Gousman [00:29:36]: And I was like, you remember to tell all the other kids that when you go back to school next week. Okay? He's like, oh, they already know. Like, you alright. Now you're just messing with me. Get out of here. I'm like, what do you want? Gerard Gousman [00:29:46]: He's like, no. Really? We like you. It's like, okay. Maximus is that's my son. Like, Maximus is always he sure ain't always happy, and he seems to have a lot of fun. And you guys do cool things, and you always do cool stuff for us at school. So that's why, like, yeah. You're definitely the coolest dad at school. Gerard Gousman [00:30:03]: And I was like, alright. Gerard Gousman [00:30:04]: I'm gonna remember this. See how long this last. I'm gonna remember this. Bring this back up in a couple of months when you're making fun of me. Because last year in kindergarten, they were all making fun of me for being bald. So to know that I'm one of them thinks that I'm cool. That's not mine. That that I'm taking that weed. Gerard Gousman [00:30:20]: Yeah. Just knowing that it was cool like that. It seemed that not just because we do and giving them stuff, but it's like that. The other kids notice how happy my kids are and think that it's because of me. That that was a win for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:32]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Gerard Gousman [00:30:36]: Which one on which day? Open? Fun? Tired? A good cook? Positive. More often than not, I am positive and try to keep them focused on a positive trajectory. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:48]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Gerard Gousman [00:30:50]: First off, my kids. They I feel like seeing the growth and seeing the smaller lessons. The things that I don't think that they all the things that you don't think they listened to that they didn't hear. And seeing them engage in the world as positivity and seeing them being kind and open and taking care of others, that generally is recharging to me. Like, alright. I'm doing something. I'm doing something right. How can I build on this? Right? So I have kinda curated a great great base of dads. Gerard Gousman [00:31:22]: So I'm getting lots of great dad content from different podcasts. The things that a lot of the dads in our network do, the way they interact with their kids, the risk that dads take, putting their selves out there to not only tackle their home and family stuff, but in going out and living their dreams. And guys like Matt Strain, who all the stuff for his family, but also as a triathlete and doing things like that. Like, man, I couldn't imagine running on a walker like myself. He's like, no, man. It's you just gotta get into it and and go and delve in and do it. Like, having dads who push the envelope and really put their stuff out there to be more than just dad. And try to remember that, a, we were once young, vibrant men with dreams and hopes and hobbies and try the the dads who find themselves and get back to that and are but are still fully active in in their debt. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:19]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things for all of us to think about and to consider for our own journeys as dads. As we leave today, as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Gerard Gousman [00:32:32]: I'd say, in closing, the it tends to know that becoming a father doesn't have to mark the end of you being a man. You can find those avenues to be able to go out and maintain your happiness, maintain your peace, and be a person. Right? And don't lose yourself in that, that go to your kids to see that you are not just that, but that you are still vibrant and that you love your life and are living a life that makes you happy, not just living a life of service. So I think that would be the that's the biggest thing I would share is, like, to go out and make sure that your kids see you being happy with your life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:17]: Well, Gerard, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today. If people people wanna find out more about you, where should they go? Gerard Gousman [00:33:24]: I am so boring, but join the National At Home Data Network. We are doing membership drive. If they come and join us, Come hang out with us at DadCon in Saint Louis this year. That's in October. And it's the only way you can find me in one of those forums if I'm not somewhere wrangling? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:40]: Well, Gerard, just thank you. Thank you so much for being here, and I wish you all the best. Gerard Gousman [00:33:44]: Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate being on. Will be listening. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:47]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:27]: Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.

Balancing Family Life and Professional Responsibilities as a Dad with Daughters Fatherhood presents a unique set of challenges and joys, each intertwined with the fabric of daily life. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Ryan Moore, a bi-vocational pastor and school counselor and father, who shares his journey of raising five daughters while balancing his professional commitments. This insightful episode delves deep into the nuances of fatherhood, mental well-being, and the nurturing of relationships. Growing Up with Sisters: An Early Advantage Ryan Moore's upbringing played a significant role in shaping his perspective on fatherhood. Growing up with two sisters and no brothers in a foreign country provided him with a unique advantage: an intrinsic understanding of others' thoughts and feelings. This background laid the foundation for his empathetic approach to parenting, allowing him to be more attuned to his daughters' needs. "I had to be more intentional with my word choice and approach," Ryan shares, emphasizing the importance of intentional communication. This deliberate gentleness has been pivotal in his journey of raising daughters, helping him engage effectively and avoid the stereotypical "male responses" that might inadvertently harm them. The Importance of Healthy Relationships One of Ryan's primary hopes for his daughters is for them to cultivate healthy relationships. Having struggled with unhealthy relationships in his past, Ryan deeply values the importance of faith and strong, nurturing connections. He aspires for his daughters to develop bonds that are nourished by mutual respect and love, both within the family and beyond. As a bi-vocational pastor, he integrates his faith into daily family life, ensuring that his daughters understand the value of spirituality and compassion. His wife's organizational skills and passion for helping people further reinforce this environment, creating a home where every member feels supported and valued. Navigating Professional Challenges and Personal Well-being Ryan Moore's role at Oxford Virtual Academy and as a former counselor at Oxford High School has had its share of challenges. The tragic shootings at Oxford High School took a significant toll on his mental well-being, making it difficult to transition back to family life. "Coping with such trauma requires a conscious effort," he notes, underscoring the importance of mental health for fathers. To manage stress and maintain a work-life balance, Ryan introduced weekly board game nights. These gatherings not only serve as a fun family activity but also help develop critical skills in his children, such as risk assessment and spatial thinking. Additionally, the Moore family indulges in month-long road trips during the summer, exploring national parks and cultural sites to reconnect and rejuvenate. Embracing a New Adventure: The Africa Mercy Ship A significant upcoming chapter for Ryan and his family involves joining the Africa Mercy ship for a two-year term. As chaplain, Ryan will provide spiritual support and counseling for the crew, while his daughters, Evangeline and Seyla, attend the onboard Mercy Academy. This move, inspired by his childhood experiences in Germany and his faith journey, marks a thrilling yet daunting transition for the Moore family. The Africa Mercy ship, operated by Mercy Ships, delivers essential medical care, including surgeries and rehabilitation, to communities in Madagascar and Sierra Leone. Ryan is particularly excited about the opportunity to serve in a global mission, reflecting his long-standing passion for helping others. Fatherhood as Mentorship: A Heartfelt Insight In the "Fatherhood Five," a segment of the podcast, Ryan describes fatherhood as "mentorship." He cherishes every hug from his daughters, seeing these moments as markers of his success as a father. Inspired by his faith and his own father, Ryan aims to instill confidence in his children, reminding fellow dads that perfection is impossible, but love is crucial. He advises, "You'll never be fully ready. Just love on your kids and acknowledge your imperfections." This authentic and heartfelt approach encapsulates Ryan's philosophy on parenting, offering invaluable wisdom for dads navigating the complexities of raising daughters in today's world. Ryan Moore's journey, as shared on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, offers a wealth of insights for fathers everywhere. His experiences highlight the importance of empathetic communication, maintaining mental well-being, fostering healthy relationships, and embracing new adventures with faith and courage. As Ryan and his family prepare for their voyage with the Africa Mercy ship, his story stands as a testament to the profound impact of intentional and loving fatherhood.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dance with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, walk with you on this journey that you're on. You know, I've got 2 daughters. I know that you've got daughters as you're listening. And I'm hoping that every week as you're listening, you're taking some notes, you're jotting some things down, you're learning some things and you're finding some things that you can take for yourself that might help you in this journey that you're on because you don't have to do this alone. I've said that over and over and over again, and I'll keep saying it. We don't have to father alone. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:57]: You don't have to man up. You don't have to act like you know everything because none of us know everything when we walk into fatherhood, we have to learn it along the way. And that's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is all about helping each of us to be able to find that path that we want to walk on, but also to be able to learn from others that have walked on the path before us, but also are walking alongside us that are doing things and maybe a little bit different way than we might be doing that we can learn from grow from, and maybe take some things along the way from that can help us in that journey that we're on. Every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads that are walking this journey in a little bit different way that have different resources, different opportunities, different things that they can share with you. And today we've got another great guest. Ryan Moore is with us today. Ryan is a father of 5 and definitely a father of daughters. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: So we're going to be talking to him about his own journey and his journey as a father to daughters and learn a little bit more about him. Ryan, thanks so much for joining us today. Ryan Moore [00:02:00]: Thanks, Chris. Yeah. Good to see you again. And I love what you're doing with the show. And, yeah, I love your vision for why you're doing this. It's very cool. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:06]: Well, I love that we're able to reconnect and to be able to talk about fatherhood. I wanna turn the clock back in time to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. This is especially after having 3 sons. Ryan Moore [00:02:19]: Oh, yeah. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: What was going through your head? Ryan Moore [00:02:22]: Oh, boy. Well, I didn't realize it right at first, but it was going to be a huge shift. The old saying is, every guy wants a son, but every man needs a daughter. And the biggest difference in my thinking was that with my boys, they're just little clones of me. And so when they're getting into stuff, you know, we knock each other around. We go on these adventures. And I almost imagine that I understand exactly what they're going through at any given moment in time because I've been there. But the moment that I started having daughters, everything's different. Ryan Moore [00:02:54]: I mean, all of a sudden, I don't know how to change a diaper again. I don't know how to respond to crises. I don't understand why feelings are popping up. And I think that was palpable from, I think, right away, even. Like once I knew we were I was about to have a daughter, I knew, okay, this is going to be a shift. This is gonna be an adventure. And it's an adventure that I was thrilled about. It was an adventure that my heart just, my heart just swelled with joyful anticipation. Ryan Moore [00:03:22]: And yeah, it's been a wonderful adventure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]: Now a lot of dads that I talk to talk about that there is joy, but there's also some fear. And you had already had 3 boys along the way. So you'd gone through that experience of having children and understanding what it meant to be a father in that perspective. But what would you say was your biggest fear in raising daughters? Ryan Moore [00:03:45]: Oh, boy. Somehow my, I don't know, my maleness or my insensitivity or my, responses to things or the emotions that I carry with me as a guy would somehow arm my child. Like I said with my guys, we knock each other around and and then, you know, we come to like, if if we yell, we yell. If or if we're playing, we get a little rough. Or if, I have an opinion, they know about it. If they have opinion, I know about it. And then we we work through it, and that's good. Right? But that somehow I would harm my girls with the same process. Ryan Moore [00:04:18]: And, yeah, truly, I I did have to shift. Having daughters forced me immediately to reconsider how intentionally gentle I was being in communication, how intentionally thoughtful I was being with my word choice. Not to say that I didn't care with my boys, but like I said, they're little clones of me and I would I just automatically assume that heart to heart and mind to mind, we we get each other. And now that my boys are all adults, we do. We get each other. You know? And, yeah, with my girls, I've had to shift. It was definitely a shift. But it made me a better person. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:54]: Now from the words that you're saying in knowing you as well, I can tell that you're a little more in tune with your feelings, and you're a little more in tune with who you are as a person. So I'm asking this in the sense of you stepping back and maybe not thinking about all the training that you've had over the years as a counselor, as a pastor, etcetera. But as you're thinking about that for yourself and being in tune with your daughters, what did you have to do? What were the some of those steps that you had to take intentionally that other dads can take as well as they have their daughters or are growing with their daughters and may not be at the same place you were in that training and such? Ryan Moore [00:05:38]: Yeah. It's funny. I am a licensed counselor and therapist and also, minister with the Assemblies of God. And all that to say, all the training and all the studies and and everything, it took me a master's degree just to get to the point where I was as good of a listener as my wife intuitively was already. So, like, I had to train to be I had to learn skills intentionally to be a good listener. A good illustration of this is my boys, we were not going to give them when we raise them, we had decided that we didn't want to raise violent children. So we were not going to give them toy guns. We were going to give them creative things, tools, Legos, whatever, building blocks. Ryan Moore [00:06:21]: And outside, they would go play. We live on 5 acres, and we kind of have a free range mentality for our kids. Go outside, play in the woods. It's good for you. And so they would go in the woods and play. At one point, everything became either a lightsaber or a gun. Everything. Every single stick they picked up was a lightsaber or a gun. Ryan Moore [00:06:42]: And once we had girls, everything became alive. Everything became a sentient being. Every clump of clay was a little character that had feelings, and every doll had opinions. And as these girls grew up, they grew up thinking about how this doll felt about that bear, And they would share experiences together, and this doll would share its opinion about how the tea tasted to the bear. Whereas, as my boys were growing and my girls were growing, I was watching them play. And as they got older and into teenage worlds, my girls were adapting their play into the real world, where now they're highly skilled at imagining what other people are thinking and feeling, and they're able to communicate. And my boys, you know, at the time being, late teens or whatever, were still outside hitting each other with sticks. So it's like there was this huge difference in the way thinking process naturally developed. Ryan Moore [00:07:45]: And I think the same was absolutely true for me. I grew up with 2 sisters and no brothers in a foreign country. And so I think I had a little bit of an advantage in learning how to intuit other people's thoughts and feelings because that was my core friend group overseas. And so it was a little easier for me, I think. And so I was always interested in trying to understand what other people were thinking and feeling, but it definitely took more skill and intent. And so, yeah, with my girls, I just had to stop and think about rather than just share bluntly what my thought process was on a thing or share bluntly what my opinion was on a thing, there was a certain rule set that benefited them that I had to enter into a certain civility that I had to understand to be able to engage on the level that they appreciated hearing. And that helped me be a much more effective father when I realized that they naturally had this, I guess, rules of engagement that they had worked out that I that I needed to, engage in. And God bless my wife, man, because she had to deal with those poor boys, you know, until I figured out that, okay, okay, I definitely need to, I definitely need to be more intentional with my word choice and my approach. Ryan Moore [00:09:08]: And again, I'm a counselor, so so you one would think that that I had the necessary tools to already begin a relationship with that in place. But yeah, no, sadly, I'm still getting there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:20]: Now, as you think back to the time that you've had with your daughters thus far, you talked about your fears. What was the hardest part so far in being a father to a daughter? Ryan Moore [00:09:29]: I deeply wanted them to each just to be able to engage socially with other people, spiritually with their faith, And if I'm overzealous in any one area or really keen, I worry most about both how they interact with other people and how they interact with their faith and with the Lord. I just deeply want them to have healthy relationships in the way that that I've come to have a relationship in my faith, but also healthy relationships with their peers, because I see a lot of pitfalls. And I see that, you know, in my past, in my history, I engage in a lot of unhealthy relationships as a coping mechanism, be it drugs or inappropriately affectionate, too early, or all these different ways of regulating how I feel during difficult times. And so my strategy was be there as their father, be present as a father, be the father figure who dotes on them and loves them and fills them up so they don't have to go to the world to get that. But then from a position of fullness, help them navigate how to make good friends and how to choose supports that are appropriate and how to choose friend groups that are beneficial and that look out for them. And so, yeah, so that was my fear and my strategy for that. My fear was always, yeah, they're going to fall in a bad crowd. If I don't file appropriately, they're gonna rebel somehow and run into the bad crowd or whatnot. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:54]: Now you've been very busy in your career, You put a lot of heart and soul into the work that you do. And over the last few years, you've been kind of consumed by the work that you do. I should probably step back and say that currently, you do work within the Oxford Schools and have been very involved with helping kids that were impacted by the shootings that did occur on campus at the high school. So with all of that busyness, with all of the things that you put into the person that you are personally, professionally, talk to me about balance and how you have been able to find that balance for yourself to be able to be the father you wanna be while also giving your heart and soul to the work and the other passions that you have. Ryan Moore [00:11:48]: Bi vocational pastor for me means that on top of my full time job, I'm teaching Bible classes. I'm teaching I do weddings every now and then, or I do premarital counseling, or I do all these things that a pastor would do on top of the what's on paper meant to be a 40 hour work week. Now anybody in education knows, Chris is laughing visibly at me right now because he knows where I'm going. Anybody who works with education knows that there's no such thing as a 40 hour workweek within education because traditionally, boundaries are very blurred between work life and personal life because educators don't get into education for work life. Educators get into education for personal reasons. Nobody gets into education because of the money. It's not a business transaction. It's a passion. Ryan Moore [00:12:32]: And so when COVID hit, always in the past, I had been struggling with, do I wanna pursue more administrative pursuits within education, or do I wanna pursue ministry? So I've been a school counselor for 20 years and a therapist for 20 years. And I love what I do. I love being able to connect with kids who benefit from the support. I love being able to to help young people figure out how to become a productive citizen or a contributing member to society. I love helping them discover their giftings and their callings and their passions and their skills to figure out, well, how does that practically fit into society? That's what drives me as a school counselor. That's what I love doing. I love helping people grow as a young adult. And so very passionate about that. Ryan Moore [00:13:16]: During my career, I picked up an an ed specialist degree to pursue public school leadership, And I thought, well, you know what? This is not a fork in the road for ministry versus school leadership because I can use this if I go into ministry, that led to a position of dean of students at Oxford High School. So when I first that led to a position of dean of students at Oxford High School. So when I first started working for Oxford, it was as the dean of students at the high school. And which was great because that position was just dealing with discipline. It was basically enforcement of the school code of conduct was, bottom line, the job description. And what that meant practically was busting into bathrooms to see who's vaping and and checking backpacks for for vapes and whatnot. And so it put me in touch with, I I feel like, the kids who really needed that one person at the school to care about them. So I felt like I was in a unique position to be very effective in that role. Ryan Moore [00:14:15]: But what I missed was the fact that I would not be able to be the person providing that care because I wasn't in a council role. And I did well in the role for 2 years. I enjoyed a lot of aspects of it. Didn't enjoy some aspects of it. But after 2 years, I was ready to get back into counseling. So when COVID hit, I shifted back into the counseling role at working for Oxford Virtual Academy, which is one of the schools in the district. And we trade a lot of students back and forth. Oxford Virtual and Oxford High School do. Ryan Moore [00:14:43]: And then I also decided that time to begin pursuing my master's of divinity. And that was kind of the fork in the road for me. And then a year after that is when the shooting happened at Oxford High School. And when the shooting happened at Oxford at Oxford High School. And when the shooting happened at Oxford High School, all of us counselors just dove in head first. And we gave all of our time and all of our energy and all of our passion to helping these kids. And it did take a huge mental toll. When I came home from that, I was not able to really shift well into family life on a day to day as I had previously. Ryan Moore [00:15:14]: When I was working as a Dean of Students, I was able to shut it off, right? I was able to, you know, we're dealing with rules, we're dealing with violations, and we're dealing with the person. Okay. You broke a rule. Here's a consequence. But let's help let's help reconnect you. Let's do some sort of practice. I could leave that alone at the end of the day. It was never so traumatic that it stuck with me as I left the building. Ryan Moore [00:15:33]: And there was very little that I would have to do after hours. But when the tragedy struck, it was nonstop. And so that was a huge challenge. 2 of the things, actually, I should say that that helped me out. I always made sure that we had board game night. So growing up, I was kind of a nerd, and I really liked, you know, I liked D and D. I liked, board games. I liked chess. Ryan Moore [00:15:55]: I liked, there was this little tabletop game called Hero Quest and march your little guy, your little warrior around to fight orcs and whatnot. You roll your dice and risk access and allies and that stuff. Loved it. Monopoly. So that whole hobby had shifted into some amazing strategy games. And I actually did my ed specialist research on that, on how strategy games can be used to mitigate the educational loss of poverty. That's a whole different topic. But I decided early on that this would be a good tool to engage with my kids on an intellectual level the whole way growing up. Ryan Moore [00:16:29]: Like, so at any developmental level, there is a developmentally appropriate game that allows me to get on their intellectual strategic level. And through these strategy games, we can process risk assessment. We can process basic statistic principles. We can process valuation of things, and we can process geometric and spatial thinking, depending on the game, of tactics and all these metacognitive processes because after the game, we always kind of debrief our strategies. Oh, I could have done this different. And so once a week, we always tried to have a board game night. And so even when things got crazy and rough, we would always try to have some night a week where we would all reconnect. Another is, you know, one of the benefits of working for the schools is that, yeah, we all agree that we're giving way too much time to a school. Ryan Moore [00:17:20]: So summertime, don't call me. Summertime, I'm not a school counselor. Summertime, I am off the clock. And we disappear. And so we, my family and I had gotten into this amazing pattern of taking month long road trips. A lot of my family is from Canada and a lot of my family has land and cottages up there that we frequently visit. But also there's this amazing resource that all of us in this country have a free access to, and that's our national park system. And, so we load up the van and I let the kids pick a destination that they want to explore. Ryan Moore [00:17:53]: You wanna go explore mountains? Okay. We're driving to the Rockies and we're gonna find some national forests. It's free to camp in the national forests. So we became, very good at finding spots to explore and hike that didn't cost anything. You know, 5 kids and a school counselor salary. We needed to run on a budget, and so we really got good at adventures. And so in the summertime, the 7 of us learned how to really, get along in enclosed spaces and do some physically challenging things out in the woods, or, exploring cultural locations, or, just getting to know this country really well. And so they really got to know me on a personal level through those weekly interactions and through the summer. Ryan Moore [00:18:36]: And then the third thing is always our church. Regardless of where I've gone through, we've gone to different churches at different times based on what our family needed and and these different churches had offered. But always we become involved and my, my kids will watch the pattern of involvement that my wife and I present to them. And they'll learn from that and jump in. And I mean, every church we've been to, my kids have been as involved as we are. So, you know, I'm thinking of 1 church where, you know, my girl's working in the nursery. 1 of my guys is running the sound. 1 of my guys is on stage doing drums. Ryan Moore [00:19:09]: And, you know, like every kid I do the school counselor thing, I guess, of trying to figure out where each one's personality, giftings, and passions can have a place at play in, in a church service or in the operation of a church. And I help them plug in. And so they own the church as much as I do. Right? And so, so faith and church organization actually becomes an extension of my mentorship to these little humans. And again, it just becomes a neat way on a Sunday for them to see who I am and and for them to learn from who I am by doing stuff. But working in the school, yeah, they really want your time. And I think that was probably the biggest decision maker. When I was observing principals and talking specifically with principals about this, I heard the theme, they really want your whole life. Ryan Moore [00:19:59]: They really want you to donate all your time. And it's like, well, gosh, that time belongs to my wife and kids. So how does one reconcile that? Oh, no, no. Your family life is out the window. You're not allowed to. And so that became one of the biggest things to help me realize that school administration was not the passion that I was going to pursue. But also, I just love teaching the bible, and I love doing all that. So that that that, you know, that that became one of the main reasons I wanted to go into ministry as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: Some of the things that you were talking about really have led you in a new direction. You're going to be leaving your current position as a counselor in the school, and you're going to be moving your entire family onto a ship. You're going to be getting involved with Mercy Ships and getting involved in a brand new ministry opportunity that is going to take especially you, your partner, and your 2 girls on an adventure overseas. So talk to me a little bit about this and what made you kind of led you into this. I know that when you were a kid, you grew up in Germany and had that cultural experience and I'm sure that that is leading some of this decision making. But talk to me about what led you to now moving into this experience for you, for your family, for your daughters to give them this experience in their lives? Ryan Moore [00:21:23]: Yeah. So my dad worked for GM, and so we were in Germany for about 4 years. And when I was in Germany, I was that weird kid with the American accent. And then we moved to Ohio, and I was the weird kid with the German accent. And then we moved to Michigan in high school, and then I was a weird kid with the Ohio accent and slightly German. And, yeah. So, I never quite fit in. And you remember me, Chris. Ryan Moore [00:21:44]: In high school, there were 2 Ryan Moores. And one Ryan Moore was, affectionately referred to as the smart Ryan Moore. And I don't know if you if you remember the nickname that I was given. I don't mind sharing it. It was the stoner Ryan Moore was the nickname that I was given, because that was how I coped with really challenging feelings. And also, that was the culture that I decided to engage with because I calculated, like, oh, these people are having fun. I know exactly how to engage with that. And so I made a strategic decision to engage with that culture in the way that I did, and it worked. Ryan Moore [00:22:19]: It provided me with support and whatnot. But, you know, like, it also left a lot of holes and everything. And then fast forward a little bit, and I had an experience in faith, total conversion of my life, and everything changed. I think you probably knew me right at the crossroads of that time, and so I think my last few years of high school, I was walking a very serious faith as a Christian, and my whole life changed. And and so that was another cultural shift. I lost a lot of friends during that process, and that's who I am today. My wife and I got married when she was 21 and I was 22. And we both wanted to do ministry work. Ryan Moore [00:22:55]: We moved to South Carolina and we visited what was at the time the Caribbean Mercy. The Caribbean Mercy was a hospital ship and their mission was help the lame to walk and to restore the sight to the blind. A a biblical Jesus message. And so they would go all through the Caribbean doing surgeries, removing cataracts, and repairing leg deformities. Just this amazing ministry. We're like, we're gonna do this. We wanna do this. And so that's what we decided we were gonna do as young married couple. Ryan Moore [00:23:19]: And then she got pregnant. And so, we had to pause our application, and this is our first kid. And they said, well, you know, have your kid take a couple years and then come back because you don't want to be pregnant on the ship. Well, in a couple years, obviously, she was pregnant again. And a couple years after that, she was pregnant again. And this kept happening. And, so we moved back to Michigan. I became a counselor, took a job, and we became this all American family where we had a dog, some acreage, and a house, which was never the plan for us. Ryan Moore [00:23:47]: And we loved it, though, and we treasured it. And it was amazing, but it was totally not expected from the very beginning. And so, now all of our kids are older, and we're looking around, and it's like, you know what? This dream that we had, we can shift again, and this might actually work. And I started talking to my girls about it, and they loved the idea. So as a 3rd culture kid, that's the term for somebody who, like I did when I moved overseas, I had the culture of origin, which was Ohio, that we moved from to Germany. And then I had the culture of Germany, which was the kids in that neighborhood. And then I had the 3rd culture is the culture that we invent. So which is this group of people that have a similar transient experience, and you can all relate to one another being a third culture kid because this experience of transience, this experience of not belonging, but this instant recognition with other kids who have this cultural, intercultural, inter cross boundary understanding of the world. Ryan Moore [00:24:45]: They get you, and you get them right away. And so that was really cool. And I really appreciated that part of my upbringing, because even now, I feel like I just feel like that's part of my personality, that big changes don't bother me. I love interacting with cultures that are not my own. I love bridging gaps between various cultures, ethnicities, languages, etcetera. And it's a joy of mine, and I think a lot of third culture kids experience that. So I wanted some kind of experience like that for my own kids, and now my girls get to do something like that. So my Evangeline, she has a very strong faith, and she loves kids. Ryan Moore [00:25:19]: And so she's been saying things like, I wanna be a missionary, or I wanna be a teacher, or I wanna be a nurse for kids overseas. At one point, she came and was like, dad, wouldn't it be cool if I was running an orphanage? I'm like, yes. That would be amazing. And so when Mercy Ships now when she thinks about going over there, she's gonna be observing these nurses that help kids and teachers that work with kids in that kind of setting. And so she's just through the roof about the opportunities that that will firsthand bring to her. Let me backtrack a little bit. Mercy Ships is now a fleet of 2 ships. The Caribbean Mercy has long been decommissioned. Ryan Moore [00:25:56]: And so now it's the Africa Mercy and the Global Mercy, and these ships are so much bigger than the Caribbean ever was. The Africa Mercy can sleep, I think, 500, and the Global can sleep 600. That's the newest flagship. But the position I'm taking is chaplain aboard the Africa Mercy, And the Africa Mercy right now is in Madagascar. I think the Global Mercy is in Sierra Leone. And so the Africa Mercy just began her field service in Madagascar. And in May, she'll begin doing surgeries. And there's something like 1200 people signed up for surgery currently. Ryan Moore [00:26:28]: And so in a 9 month field service, they do all these surgeries, mainly maxillofacial surgeries, or I know they do some dental surgeries. They remove tumors. They fix cleft palates. They're still doing a lot of the leg work. And then in this 9 month field service, they also do the most of the, or a large portion of the rehab, the physical rehab post surgery. And then during this whole time, they're also training people on land, training locals to run clinics, and then they donate all of their gear, all of their equipment to these local clinics. So at the end of that field service, you've got all these clinics trained for recovery, and then the ship leaves and goes and restocks and picks a new port of call for the next round of field service. Well, there's gonna be 2 field services in Madagascar back to back this time, And we'll be joining them towards the end of the first one in July. Ryan Moore [00:27:17]: Me as the chaplain and my wife as what's called the primary caretaker for our girls, which is a required position when you bring kids. But she's also a hairdresser, and she's also quite skilled in HR. She's always done, like, church volunteer coordination. And so she's very interested in a position on board for helping people onboard and helping people transition into Shiplife. And so that is something that she's looking forward to doing. But our girls are, they're very excited. My younger, Sala, she's the 14 year old. She's just the easygoing one. Ryan Moore [00:27:48]: She's just the up for anything one. And so right now we started selling all of our stuff. And so it's starting to feel real. And so the loss of it is starting to hit, right? Because a transition like that is all about a balance between excitement for the new thing, but also loss and mourning for what is disappearing from your life, like all your old friends and all your stuff. And so she's feeling it now. She's going up and down. And so, you know, the emotions are coming out of nowhere for both of my girls. I'm just in mission mode right now. Ryan Moore [00:28:14]: I'm just in like, go, go, go mode. But they're in this like, yeah, real excited. But then like, oh no, my friends are, yeah, this is going to be amazing. And then, oh, I'm gonna miss all my stuff. I have to give away 90% of my things. And so it's a real emotional roller coaster, but still with the theme of hope and joy for the work that's before us. So they're still on board. That's expected as one begins a transition like that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:39]: So talk to me about this journey and how long you're going to be on it and what your role is going to be, and how your kids are going to be involved in that. Ryan Moore [00:28:49]: Okay. So with the surgeries, most of the people on ship are either serving in a ship crew capacity or a medical capacity. And I'll be taking the chaplain role, which is essentially ship's pastor for all the crew. So there's a chaplaincy team for the crew, and then there's a hospital chaplaincy team for the patients, and I will be one of the chaplain team for the crew. And so I'll be helping run services on the Sundays. I'll be doing a lot of counseling. I'll actually be starting out. My position will be what's called a chaplaincy counselor, and so I'll be handling transitions and mental health crises and difficult moments and things like that. Ryan Moore [00:29:27]: So and one of the things I'm really excited about there is the fact that there's 32 nations represented on board. And so the American component is just a small fraction of the crew. Significant portion of the crew is Great Britain, Dutch. There's a significant African representation, some Asian representation, and some South American representation. 32 different nations. And I think of any church I've ever been to. And there's always conflict because no matter where you go, there's always people, and, you know, people have conflict. And in church, conflict is dealt with with certain agreements and rules and, you know, the Holy Spirit guiding you. Ryan Moore [00:30:08]: And so I'm really interested when you mix in also the communication, ethnic, linguistic, cultural differences of 32 different nations. I'm very excited to, to help bridge that gap. You know, I feel like this is like, gosh, I feel like all the things I've ever done, I feel like are going to be used in making this job work. And I don't know. I just feel like it's, it's what I it's a job I've been looking for my whole life, if that makes sense. It's it's a dream job. It's definitely a dream job. And so 2 years, I've committed to a 2 year term aboard the Africa Mercy. Ryan Moore [00:30:42]: So that'll be both field services of Madagascar and a 3rd field service yet to be determined location wise. But really, if we love it, we'll stay. And if they love us, we'll probably stay. But it it's hard to predict the future. Right? But I have committed to 2 years. And so in those 2 years, Evangeline will be in her junior and senior year. And, so there's the African I'm sorry. There's the, the Mercy Academy, which is an accredited academy both in the States and in Europe. Ryan Moore [00:31:11]: And so we could pursue, depending on where she thinks she might want to go to college 2 years from now, we could pursue diploma credentials for either, school setting. And yeah, it's apparently very rigorous and she's up for the challenge. And then my younger, Seyla, 14 years old, will be a freshman. So she'll have her freshman and sophomore years on board. And we're ready to jump into that. The girls, like I said, they're very excited. Seyla doesn't quite know what she wants to study yet, but she's interested in the nursing, and she's interested in the medical. And so she was interested in seeing how those careers look and potentially going in that direction in the future. Ryan Moore [00:31:49]: But she's my only one that we really don't know yet just because she's happy with everything. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. But my wife, like I said, she's always gotten into different volunteer organizer roles. Every church we've gone to, she's kind of been the, the one to organize people and, and help them figure out how to plug into different positions. And, she's excellent at it. And she's she's got education in business administration. And so she falls into that role neatly. But more than anything, she likes working with people, and she likes getting to know people. Ryan Moore [00:32:18]: So it's not like she wants to be doing a business thing behind the scenes, but working directly with people to help them figure out how to plug in. So she's very interested in that. And then when people find out that she's a hairdresser, as we're meeting people on ship right now through Zoom meetings and through training meetings online, once they find out she's a hairdresser, they all kind of go a little bit nuts because they really want a hairdresser on board as well. So I'm sure she will get her arm twisted into that role again. And she loves doing that as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:42]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. You ready? Ryan Moore [00:32:49]: Okay. Let's go. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:50]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Ryan Moore [00:32:52]: Mentorship. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:53]: When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Ryan Moore [00:32:57]: Oh, I think every time they gave me a big old hug. Every time I get a hug from my daughters, I feel like, alright, I'm doing something right. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:04]: Now if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad? Ryan Moore [00:33:08]: Oh, they'd hopefully say that I was funny, kind, adventurous, and challenging. I hope. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:16]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Ryan Moore [00:33:17]: Yeah. I mean, you've heard me talk about my faith a lot. And, you know, there's for me, there's no better example than than how much God loves us. And the biblical example we have of a loving father is is my standard. Gosh. I've got my dad is an amazing provider, and my dad is an amazing problem solver. And though our personalities are drastically different and our approaches at things are drastically different, instinctively, growing up, I always knew that no matter how bad things would get, I had a safety net. He would always be there. Ryan Moore [00:33:49]: He would always be able to provide. He would always be able to drop everything and rescue me should I should I ask for it? And that has given me a sense of I can do anything. Because at the very least, I know if I totally screw this all up, my dad will take me in. So I strive to be that. I strive to give my my kids a self of confidence in that same way as my dad did and does to say, go out there, do anything. And what's the worst that can happen? You come back, and I give you a great big hug, and we try again. My dad's an inspiration for that, for sure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:28]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for all of us to think about in the way that we father. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you wanna give to every father? Ryan Moore [00:34:37]: You're not ready. You'll never be ready. Yeah. You've screwed up already. And you'll continue to screw up. Just oh, boy. Yep. So lean into that that being a fact. Ryan Moore [00:34:48]: Get yourself up and just love on those girls. There's no perfect father. Well, there's a perfect father. I'm not it. That's for sure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:57]: Well, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your own journey as a father, and I wish you all the best. Ryan Moore [00:35:03]: Chris, it's been my pleasure and great to reconnect again. Thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:05]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:04]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men. Get out and be the dad you can be.

Parenting, particularly fatherhood, is a journey laden with challenges, emotions, and an unwavering sense of responsibility. In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, I welcome Quentarious Jones and Demetrius Roe Jones of the Not Your Average Girl Dad Podcast we delve deep into the nuances of raising daughters. They offer listeners not only their personal experiences but also invaluable advice on how fathers can maintain strong, emotional connections with their daughters while growing themselves. Fostering Emotional Connections One of the primary themes discussed in this episode is the importance of fathers understanding and connecting with their daughters' emotions. Both Quentarious and Demetrius opened up about the challenges they faced in expressing vulnerability, stemming from their own upbringings. They emphasize that showing emotion isn't a weakness but a strength that fosters deeper connections with their daughters. Quentarious reflected, "Embracing and expressing my emotions has been a journey not just for my well-being, but for the emotional health of my daughters." This insight aligns with Dr. Lewis's message — that fathers should be consistent and willing to show vulnerability. Embracing this openness allows daughters to feel understood, supported, and emotionally secure. The Challenge of Understanding Emotions Raising daughters brings unique emotional challenges. Quentarious and Demetrius highlighted their initial fears and concerns upon learning they were going to be fathers. The fear of not being able to protect their daughters, especially from emotional pain, weighed heavily on them. Demetrius shared his struggle with showing vulnerability, rooted in a strict upbringing. He realized that breaking this cycle was essential for his relationship with his daughters. He mentioned, "I grew up thinking that showing emotion was for the weak. But, understanding that being open and vulnerable is okay has been a revelation. It's something I want my daughters to see and learn." These experiences underline the importance for fathers to better understand emotions, both their own and their daughters'. It's about breaking down societal norms that equate masculinity with stoicism and instead fostering an environment where emotional expression is encouraged and valued. The Role of Fathers: More Than Just Providers Another critical point discussed was the perception of fathers as mere providers. The hosts argue that fatherhood goes beyond financial support; it encompasses being an emotional pillar, a mentor, and a steadfast presence in their children's lives. Dr. Lewis pointed out, "Being a father isn't just about providing; it's about being present and emotionally available. Our daughters need to see that we care, that we're here for them, not just in good times but through adversity too." This paradigm shift from provider to an emotionally available guardian is vital. Fathers who engage with their daughters' emotional worlds help build their daughters' confidence and emotional resilience. Not Showing Favoritism Throughout their conversation, the topic of not showing favoritism among children was underscored. Both Quentarious and Demetrius spoke about the delicate balance needed to treat each child fairly. Quentarious noted, "It's important that our daughters feel valued and equally loved. Favoritism can create rifts that last a lifetime." Avoiding favoritism involves understanding and appreciating each child's unique personality, needs, and emotions. This approach not only fosters individual growth but also strengthens familial bonds. Faith and Leadership: Core Elements As fathers and hosts of the "Not Your Average Girl Dad" podcast, Quentarious and Demetrius frequently discuss the intersection of fatherhood, faith, and leadership. Their podcast was born from regular conversations about life, music, and their roles as fathers, husbands, and leaders within their communities. Discussing faith, they highlighted its role in navigating tough times. The duo believes that faith offers a foundation and a guiding light for fathers. "Having faith and finding joy in difficult situations is essential," emphasized Quentarious. Their goal is to inspire other fathers by sharing principles they've learned and lived by. They hope that emphasizing faith and family in their podcast will resonate with their listeners. The latest episode of "Dads with Daughters" is a treasure trove of wisdom for fathers navigating the complex landscape of raising daughters. As Quentarious, Demetrius, and Dr. Lewis share their stories and advice, one message stands clear: Fatherhood is an evolving journey that requires openness, emotional availability, and a commitment to learning. Whether it's through fostering emotional connections, challenging societal norms, or drawing strength from faith, fathers play a pivotal role in shaping their daughters' lives. The insights shared in this episode serve as a reminder of the profound impact that an emotionally present, understanding, and faithful father can have. Fathers, you're not alone on this journey — reach out, connect, and continue growing. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to be here with you, to be able to talk with you, to work with you, to help you on this journey that you're on. And I say help, but really you're helping me too because by having this show, I have the opportunity to have amazing guests here, and I learn from them just as much as I'm hoping that you learn from them as well. And that's what it's all about. It you know, what's so important is that you and I know that we don't have to do this alone. Because so often in society today, we have this feeling that to be that amazing dad, you gotta you gotta man up. You gotta just push forward. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: You gotta do it and gotta know everything the moment your child's born. And the answer is you really don't, because you're not gonna know everything the moment your child is born. You're gonna fail many times, and that's okay. But you've got so many men around you that are fathers too and have done this. And if you're willing to let down your guard a little bit, we could use the v word right now. I've used it before. If You're willing to be a little vulnerable in saying, hey. I don't get this, or I don't got this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: And you're willing to talk to some other dads around you, you're gonna learn a lot. And that's why why this show exists is to to be here, to be that resource for you, to let you be able to connect with other dads that have different experiences. And that's why every week we have different guests that we bring on to share their own experiences. And today we got 2 more great dads with us today. Demetrius Jones and Quinterius Jones are both with us today. They are both fathers of daughters. Demetrius has 3 daughters. Quinterius has 2 daughters. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:04]: So we got a lot of daughters in the house, and and we're gonna be talking about the journeys that they have been on. And, also, we're gonna talk about a podcast that they do together called not your average girl dad podcast. So we're gonna be talking about that as well. So I'm really excited to have them here, guys. Thanks so much for being here today. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:02:20]: Thanks for having us.  Quentarious Jones [00:02:23]: Yeah. Thank you for having us, Chris. We really appreciate it. Very exciting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]: So I wanna turn the clock back in time on both of you because you have daughters. And, Demetrius, you've got 3. Quentarius, you've got 2. So I wanna turn back the clock all the way back to that first moment when you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through both your heads? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:02:43]: Well, I'll start first. When I found out I was going to be a dad, I was excited, actually. Because long story short, the doctor said we won't be able to have any kids. So my first child was literally my miracle child and we named her miracle. So I was excited. I was a little nervous, but I remember when it was getting closer and closer for the first time in a long time, I got butterfly in my stuff. I was excited. Yeah. Quentarious Jones [00:03:09]: I would say the same. It was one of those things where I knew I always wanted kids. And my first thought was, okay, we're gonna have a son. I was like, I wanna have a son first girl, then another son. So I, at first I wanted 3 kids and to find out that, okay, we're having a girl. It was shocking. I was like, Hey, you know, you always have that, that 50, 50, but I was like, wow, okay, we're having a girl. So I was like, this is gonna be pretty cool. Quentarious Jones [00:03:30]: One of the strangest things, and I kinda shared this on one of our episodes is that I actually had a dream about Kalani before she was born. So I didn't know her name was gonna be Kalani at the time, but I had a dream about her and she turned out to be the same little girl in my dream. And I just thought that was, wow. That's that was pretty cool, but it was an exciting time for us. It gave me a sense of real responsibility really quick. So it's been a joy being a girl dad. Been a joy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:04]: So one of the things that I think that I was gonna that I am kind of interested in knowing, and this is something that I talk to a lot of dads about, is that when I talk to dads about being dads with daughters, a lot of times they talk about that there is a fear to being a dad to a daughter. What would you say were both of your biggest fears in raising daughters? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:04:24]: My biggest fear is that I can't protect them at all times. I am so over protect them. It's like the smallest little thing. And it's like, what do you mean I have to go without me? What do you mean? Like, she was like, my wife was like, you know, you're a bitch. You have to go back to work. I was like, well, I'm taking them with me, you know? So it's just the fear of not being able to protect them all the time, but I just have to trust that God's watching over them and that he can protect them in ways that I can't. So that's my biggest fear. Quentarious Jones [00:04:53]: I think I share a similar fear, but I would say more so just knowing that, and I'm kind of biased, of course, because I'm their dad, but just knowing that one day, hopefully, they will get married and just hoping that that guy can be anywhere close to what I provide for my daughters from a spiritual level, from a financial level, from a mental level. It's just being able to support them in a way that I know that I can and investing in them to be strong young women in the society that we live in. And so just hoping that they find someone that sees them as the jewels that they are. And so my fear would be is them not finding that someone and being maybe manipulated into or settling for something that I know that they can have more of or have a better situation with someone. So just hoping that they find someone that can that can bring that to the table. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: Now fatherhood is never easy. It has its ups, its downs, and in betweens. And we were talking before about that about when they're young and they don't sleep and you barely keep your eyes open. So what's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter thus far? Quentarious Jones [00:06:09]: I'm gonna say the endless emotion. The spectrum of emotions. And because for me growing up, I haven't always been, and I can admit that I haven't always been, that in tune with my emotions. So having daughters has definitely opened me up to feeling more or being more in tune with my feelings. And learning that with them, everything matters is always something. And sometimes where they may whine about things that in my mind, I'm like, I don't think there's anything to whine about, but taking the time to sit down with them and really understand them as where they where they are. My wife helped me see this one time when we were, going through a situation with my oldest daughter when she was going to school, and she was having a tough time adjusting to starting school for the 1st few months. And we had a rough time getting up in the morning on the way to school, a lot of crying, a lot of I don't wanna go. Quentarious Jones [00:07:07]: And my wife helped me see, even though I know they're human, she just told me, she's like, hey, Quinn. You just gotta think. She's a human just like you're human. Some days you're gonna have tough days. You're gonna have rough days. And her way of expressing it may be a little bit different from you because you're older and you kinda understand that you're not gonna cry about everything, but her way of expressing herself is through her tears. And so that helped me gain a little bit more patience with my daughters. And so I think that's the biggest challenge is just learning that they're humans just like we are. Quentarious Jones [00:07:40]: They're just smaller humans, and they have their mood. They have their feelings and just learning to navigate them so that you can help meet them where they are and get the best out of the situation. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:07:51]: I would say trying to figure out each one of their many personalities. I have 3 beautiful girls and they have 3 totally different personalities. My oldest child, she's real pretty and I don't want to touch that. That's dirty and things of that nature. My middle child, she's kinda like tomboyish, like love playing in the dirt. And then my youngest is just bossy. You know, she's just like, I want it now. Give it to me. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:08:21]: And so it's just trying to figure them all out. And another thing, vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment is try not to show favoritism. Treating them all the same. I'm not gonna lie. It's hard at times because especially with my certain one, I could have my first, you know, that's your first. That's your priority. But you have to treat all of them the same. If one is no, all is no. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:08:45]: If one is yes, all is there. You get 1 piece of candy, gotta give all of them piece of candy. And so that's been the biggest challenge to me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:53]: Well, then I'll tell you both. I mean, things don't change that much as they get older, and you're gonna have to keep being consistent as parents. You're going to have to keep working day in and day out to figure out the personalities and the emotions get even worse as they get into their teenage years. So you definitely have to kind of ride the wave and be willing to ride the wave. You know, one one of my past guests said this, and I've said this numerous times with different guests. And in a conversation that I had had with with a author, she said to me that one of the things that dads need to think about, especially dads with daughters need to think about, is the fact that so many of us as men are programmed innately to be fixers. So we go into situations always with the mentality of how can I fix this? And our daughters and our partners in life don't always want us to fix things. And you at times need to go into the conversations, especially with your daughters with the concept of asking your daughters when you're sitting down with them, is this a fixing conversation? Or is this a listening conversation? And let them decide. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:07]: And that was a moment. And it was I got it later in life, and I wish that I had got it earlier in life because I think that I would have incorporated that earlier because I had incorporated it when I found out about it. In my daughter's teenage years, they probably would have looked at me like I was an alien. And that they would have been like, stop using your psychobabble on me, dad. But if you have a younger daughter, that is a definite. Think about using that because it is something that I think will make a huge difference in how you communicate with the females in your life. I'm not just saying your daughters. I'm saying the females in your life. Quentarious Jones [00:10:45]: And I think that's good because I kinda learned that with my wife. And now that you're saying that I never really looked at it that way for my daughters in the same way. So I can definitely take that advice because I I do that a lot with my wife. It's like, hey. I have to ask. I pause because I know I I wanna fix it. I'm that type of person, and I kinda just have the personality that I always wanna help someone because I always wanna I'm always in the state of, hey, how can I help you? How can I get you out of this rut? And so for her, sometimes it's just, I don't really wanna be out of the rut right now. I just kinda wanna blow off steam. Quentarious Jones [00:11:21]: And so I I use that with my with my wife, but I never thought of using it with my 2 daughters. So that's great advice. Great advice. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:11:29]: I think the same thing. I never thought about it with my daughters. I've have had to learn to let my wife vent and let her just get it off her chest. Because you know what me, I'm like, I'm just like, what's the purpose of it? And if you still got the problem, I want the solution, but I realized that why is maybe a little different. So I say, okay, man. And then if you want me to ask, I had learned, they'll ask. Oh, you want my answer? Okay. So I get my solution there. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:11:52]: So I've that is good. I never thought about to actually apply that with my daughters. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:56]: Now, Contreras, you meant you made the comment that one of the things you had to really work on yourself was to kinda let down your guard a bit, be a bit more vulnerable, and let out your emotions more because that's not something that comes easy for you. So talk to me about what you had to do to move in that direction because you're not the only guy that has had that issue or has that issue. But what did you have to do to start moving down that path? Quentarious Jones [00:12:25]: I think step number 1 was first kinda just looking in the mirror and saying, this isn't healthy for you. It's not healthy for you to bottle up your emotions and not express yourself when you feel certain emotions because something that I learned in life is that God gives us emotions. And so it's not about trying to suppress the emotions all the time. It's about learning how to navigate the emotions and express them in the proper way. And so that's one of the things that I first had to come to grips with is, hey. This isn't healthy for you, and it's not gonna be good for your daughters if you're not fully engaged or with your emotions in a way to where you can properly understand them, navigate them, and then help them because they're gonna have emotions. And as they're navigating through life as they're growing, they they wanna know, okay. So how when I feel this way, if I'm angry, how to not, okay, hit someone when I'm angry or when I'm happy, how to be happy and to express being happy, like, with my smile, with my joy. Quentarious Jones [00:13:26]: I, you know, I wanna express these things in a proper way. And so that was one way. The first thing that I had to do was just come to grips with myself to say, hey. We wanna be healthy. And then and then using that, just it kinda sounds weird, but practicing it with my family. Right? So practicing that every single day, being intentional about when I feel a certain way, being honest with it. Like, for example, I shared earlier when we was going through the time with her going to school, it was frustrating to have so many mornings where you would think that I'm doing everything right. I'm getting up earlier. Quentarious Jones [00:14:03]: Sometimes we'll play, like, jingles in the morning to kinda get the emotions going, and then we still get to these moments where, okay, we were running late to school or it was just like a tantrum that morning. And so I had to understand that, okay, every single day is a day of practice, and it gives me an opportunity to continue to work on, hey, how can we navigate these emotions here? And so that's kind of how I did that. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:14:27]: But me, I had to do a lot of going back in digging up my past. I had a very hard dad. I mean, this man was like Joe Jackson times 10. He, you couldn't. Oh Lord. So with that, I love my dad. I love him. He was a great father. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:14:48]: But with that, I wasn't allowed to show emotion. And he never verbally said it, but that's pretty much how I took it. And so I would bottle things up and I would bottle things up. And so what I had to do was I had to learn that it's okay to show emotion. It's okay to cry. You know, a lot of, mirror. Yeah. I'm I'm a hard man. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:15:09]: No, like cry. It's okay. Like, and so able to learn how to allow my emotions to flow. Then I was better able to empathize with my wife, empathize with my girls. Okay. I know how this would make me feel so I can understand the emotion that you feel right now. Or even if I can't understand it, I at least empathize that you have this emotion right now. And so I'm going to do my best to respect that and honor that. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:15:38]: And so once I was able to unpack a lot of that stuff, and that helped me to flow better with dealing with my, you know, my my girls and my wife and things of that nature. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:47]: Now the 2 of you have known each other for a long time And the 2 of you came together just a little while back and came together to create a podcast. And I mentioned this at the beginning of the show today, the not your average girl dad podcast. Talk to me about the genesis story of this and why the 2 of you decided that you wanted to come together to have these conversations. Quentarious Jones [00:16:09]: So it was birth from just Roski and I I'm caller Roski. We so we met in college. We we we went to Albany State University in Albany, Georgia. It's like we were meant to be bros. It was just meant to be. He he used to work at, the Subway on campus. And E fresh. And he used to sing these jingles. Quentarious Jones [00:16:34]: He had this jingle. Every time he came in, you knew you would get a laugh and you'd get a great sub from Roski. And so we bonded on campus. We became really good friends. We was also attending the same church at the time. And from there we find out that we had some very common interests. And one of the interests that bonded us is like Christian hip hop. And so we became really tight about about that. Quentarious Jones [00:17:00]: And from there, we just became really great friends. So how do we get to the podcast? As we continued our friendship throughout the years, we will always have these amazing conversations on the phone. It's not the goal. Like we would call each other for something quick. Like, Hey bro, I just wanna call you. See, did you hear the new new song that dropped by Lecrae or the new song from Swoop or the new song from KB? And so we would just talk about the music, but from that conversation, we would end up just talking about life and just talking about what we're learning as husbands and what we're learning in ministry. And then, eventually as he expounded, we're learning as dads. And so we share these long conversations and we'd be on the phone like 2 hours. Quentarious Jones [00:17:41]: And then one day we was just like, I don't know. What do we just take our conversation to a podcast? And one day I just was I was driving down the road and he made a song. We made a song about this. And we was like, I was driving down the road, and then in the middle of prayer, it just hit me. The idea is just like, okay, let's start a podcast. And then we'll just take our conversations to the mic and we'll share our experiences and share different principles that we've learned and that we are learning as fathers, as husbands, as men in leadership and ministry, and just share those experiences as we continue this journey. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:18:16]: You pretty much summed it up. By all the thing, I guess what I would add was just me and Terry was really close. He became more than a friend of me. He became my brother. And so like I said, it was literally one day he was driving down the road in middle of prayer. And then he called me, he said, Hey, the Lord put it in my heart. Let's start a podcast. We didn't know it was going to be not your average girl at, but it was, he's like, let's just start a podcast. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:18:37]: Let's just share our conversation. And I said, okay. And so one of the things that I told them, I'm like, I'm not very business savvy, so I'll do what I can. But his main thing was like I said, the great content, the subject matter. And we knew that we could be a blessing to other girl dads or inspired fathers or dads period. Even you're not a girl that just dad periods or just father figures. We just wanted to put something out there to let the people know that you're doing a great job today and time is always about the negativity. It's all about what people aren't doing. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:19:08]: So we wanted to put some out there to let them know you're doing a great job. If you're showing up, that's half the battle right there. You're doing a great job. So that was the idea. And then I got an opportunity to use my creative juices. I sing, I rap, I, I write. And so I used to do jingles and that was one of the things that really connected us. He would come to subway and I'm like, subway, eat fresh, you know, welcome to subway. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:19:37]: Eat fresh. Like there was always like this larger than life moment when you came in the subway. So I was like, this is an opportunity for me to employ some of my skills. So I had to say yes. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:49]: So as you've gone along this journey, you put out some different episodes, talked about a lot of topics, some lighthearted, some heavier in nature. You know, I know that, Demetrius, you talked about at the beginning that it took you guys a long time to have your first child, and you talk about that in one of your episodes as well. So I guess in the conversations that you did have in the shows that you've put out thus far, what is your hope? What are you hoping that people are taking away from the message that you're sharing? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:20:19]: Well, my hope for me is with God, all things are possible. Our conversation is always centered around God. And actually one of my favorite episodes was that story about us having a hard time because we went through a lot and that's in life. Things are going to always be handed on the silver platter. You're going to have to work hard and you know, there's going to be ups. It's gonna be a lot of ups. It's gonna be a lot of downs. But if you keep your trust in God, that if he promised you something, it's going to come to pass. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:20:48]: So that's the main thing I would say is just that keep your trust in God and just know that with God, all things are possible and things are gonna always get better. And that's one of the many things that I would pray that somebody picks up from hearing us. Quentarious Jones [00:21:04]: I would like for people to pick up or like for those listeners to pick up. Everything happens for a reason. We don't always understand what that reason can be, but as long as you have, in my opinion, faith, family, and the fundamentals of life always help you keep the right perspective even in the toughest times of your life. Because with Roski and his family, I believe when that was going on for them, and I I think I shared this with him, is that my wife and I, we experienced a miscarriage at one point before Kalani was born. And this was before he and his wife went down the path of experiencing their journey. And when we went through that, it was like an opportunity for me to share with him. Hey. If God has promised you something that is gonna come to pass. Quentarious Jones [00:21:57]: And at that time, I'm not thinking that, hey, this is gonna be something that Rosie's going through or someone else, but you learn that everything happens for a reason. Even some of the things that can bring us disappointment, some of the situations that can bring us some hurt, some pain. But in some of that hurt, that pain, you can still receive joy. He can replace your morning into dancing and, you know, your darkness into light. And so I just want listeners and those that come to the podcast or come to hear anything from us to know that God is consistently good and that if you maintain your faith, always trust in the fact that he is good and that he knows best, that all things will work together for your good. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:40]: So talk to me about the future of the podcast. I know it's been a little bit of time since you last posted, but what's gonna be coming in the future? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:22:46]: We have season 2 coming really soon. We're working on it. We're recording, doing episodes. We have music videos coming soon, promos. We're, reaching out to start, doing speaking gigs, the whole 9 yard. But I guess in immediate future, definitely season 2, and we have a excited video coming. It's going to just once again, highlight all the fathers out there. We want to give you your flowers while you're still here on this side of heaven. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:23:21]: So, it's exciting. And it's not just his biological dads, father figures, coaches, teachers, mentors. If you just been just a mentor to anybody, we wanna say thank you, and we love you and keep doing what you were called to do. Quentarious Jones [00:23:37]: Gearing up for season 2 and gearing up to put out that video, which and that song, which highlights just the amazing work that dads around the world are doing. And I think Roski said it earlier, in a society that is can be very critical, so much negativity that goes on or that is said, especially towards men and fathers and husbands and what we're not doing. But let's highlight, the good that is going on because there are great dads out in the world. There are great mentors and fathers that are investing in the next generation to help build a better society. Uplift, and that that's our goal for the future is this can continue to promote faith, family, and fundamentals of life, and, hopefully, it continues to inspire the next generation. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:24]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:31]: Let's go. Ready. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:33]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Quentarious Jones [00:24:35]: Commitment. Sacrifice. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:36]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Quentarious Jones [00:24:41]: I haven't felt that yet. But sometimes I felt like I've succeeded getting them to school on time with no crying. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:50]: When I was able to watch all 3 of my girls and not have to call my wife once while she was out. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:56]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:59]: Talk to my oldest one. But, she always tells me that she loves me. I recently went to go read to her class for it's, national readings month. And I went to go read their class. And as soon as I walked through the door, she had the biggest Kool Aid smile and it just won my heart. So I don't think she say I'm a pretty good dude. Quentarious Jones [00:25:17]: I would say I believe they would both call me the best dad in the world. And the reason they call me the best dad in the world is because they say I give them everything. They say when we ask mommy, she always say, no, ma'am. No ham, no turkey. But when we go to daddy, he's gonna give us everything we want. So, yeah. So I would be probably the best dad in the world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:36]: So Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:25:38]: It's a lot of people. My pastor, my dad. I know growing up with a father, I never envisioned nothing else. That's what I saw. I was gonna be married. I was gonna have kids. I was gonna be a part of their life. So it's a it's a lot of people, but definitely my dad and my pastor. Quentarious Jones [00:25:53]: For me, I would say my pastor. I would also say a lot of the men in the church community where I serve just seeing a lot of great examples of many different type of dads, from many different backgrounds and experiences. My story was a little bit different from Roskis because I didn't have a relationship with my dad early on in my life until I became a teenager, so until I was, like, 15 years old. And so we have an amazing relationship now. But that first few years of my life was always kinda searching for the perfect father figure or someone who could help lead me in those critical times of my life. And I had a great mentor, and I still talk to him. We're still great to this day. Those would be my inspirations. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:41]: Now both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that everyone should be thinking about. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you wanna give to every day? Demetrius Roe Jones [00:26:50]: Continue to show up. You're not going to always know what to do. You're not going to always have the answer, but when you show up, it shows that number 1, you care and you're willing to learn. Quentarious Jones [00:27:01]: My advice is to don't be so hard on yourself because everything is a learning experience. You're always gonna be learning something new about yourself and about your kids. If you're married, you're about your spouse. It's always an evolving door or phase of life where you're always in a a constant state of learning. And so as long as you wanna continue to have the mindset to be a student, I'm a say student of the game of life or student of the game of being a husband, being a father, just being a leader, you're always gonna learn something new. And as long as you have the right posture, you can receive those benefits. So just always have a a student part. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:38]: Now if people wanna find out more about the 2 of you, about the podcast, where should they go? Quentarious Jones [00:27:43]: So we're on social media, so they can go to Instagram, TikTok, threads, x, you formerly known as Twitter. So you can find us even on Facebook. So you can find us at nyagd_tribe. So that's nyagd_tribe. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]: And we'll put links in the notes today so everybody can find that. Guys, I just wanna say thank you. Demetrius, Quinterius, thanks so much for being here today. Wish you all the best, and good luck on this journey that both of you are on to raise those amazing daughters that you wanna raise. Demetrius Roe Jones [00:28:19]: Thank you for having us once again. We're it was an honor and a privilege. Quentarious Jones [00:28:22]: Yes. Thank you so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:23]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:21]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Dad you can be.

Today on the Rarified Heir Podcast we are talking to Christopher Lewis, son of entertainer & human juggernaut, the one, the only, Jerry Lewis. Chris was kind enough to reach out to us via a mutual connection at the Library of Congress and was pretty terrific about answering all our questions, big and small about the man known as “The King of Comedy.” The impetus for our chat was Chris' book Jerry Lewis on Being a Person, a 300+ page book is packed with photos, ruminations, life lessons, antidotes and more. It's a wonderful look at a complex comedian, director, writer, producer, golfer and philanthropist. Chris talked to us about his father and was frank about why he looks at his father with “rose colored glasses,” his father's lust for life and everything in between. Somehow we get to a vast amount of information on “Le Roi du Crazy” as the French called him. Our discussion hits everything from his love of audio and video technology to just how much of the Jerry Lewis archive was delivered to the Library of Congress. We also spoke about culturally significant high points like his guest appearance on Pink Lady and Jeff ans Slapstick (of Another Kind). Along the way we get to talking about The Day the Clown Cried, an true art imitates life Rupert Pupkin stalking situation that had everyone in the family on edge, why handshake deals were so important to Jerry and what comedians made Jerry Lewis laugh. All you have to do is sit back and listen to this episode of the Rarified Heir Podcast. Take a listen.

Fatherhood is often described by many as a profound journey filled with love, challenges, and personal growth. In this week's episode we speak with David Peralta, father,  entrepreneurial coach and founder of The Soul Centered Founder to discuss the transformative experience of raising strong, empowered daughters. This episode delves deep into the essence of fatherhood, exploring themes such as emotional healing, the importance of presence, and the power of unconditional love. The Initial Reaction: Finding Purpose in Fatherhood When David Peralta first learned he would become a father to a daughter, the news had a profound emotional impact on him. This newfound responsibility and bond created a sense of purpose that reshaped his life's trajectory. Peralta's immediate reaction reflects a common sentiment among fathers—a mixture of excitement, fear, and overwhelming love. Fatherhood: A Journey Rooted in Love Peralta describes fatherhood with one powerful word: "love." This simple yet profound definition encapsulates the essence of his approach to parenting. For him, the ultimate goal of fatherhood is to foster an environment where love is the foundation. His daughter views him as loving, humorous, and occasionally irritable—an honest testament to the multifaceted nature of parenting. Personal Growth and Healing: Unpacking Emotional Baggage We delve into the necessity of personal growth in fatherhood. Peralta reflects on how his unresolved trauma initially impacted his parenting style and family dynamics. It created a cycle of conflict and violence that, unbeknownst to him, mirrored his internal struggles. Through therapy, he began to confront and process buried emotions, particularly anger, which proved to be a monumental task. This journey towards emotional healing has been transformative for Peralta, enabling him to become a more present, understanding, and compassionate father. He emphasizes that this emotional openness is essential for cultivating a loving relationship with his children. Communication: The Path to Understanding and Connection One of the most significant themes discussed in the podcast is the impact of open communication within the family. David Peralta highlights that actively listening and providing a supportive space without trying to "fix" problems can profoundly enhance the father-daughter relationship. He began to embody emotional openness, choosing to participate in his daughter's emotional world rather than dictate solutions. The Influence of Role Models: A Father's Inspiring Presence Peralta draws inspiration from his own father's unconditional love and calm demeanor. This role model has motivated him to strive for continuous personal growth and better parenting. The admiration and lessons derived from his father underscore the value of positive role models in shaping one's approach to fatherhood. Embracing Unconditional Love and Acceptance According to Peralta, true success in fatherhood stems from embodying the states we want to be in, such as love, compassion, and balance. These qualities are essential for fostering personal growth and creating an environment where daughters can thrive. He advises fathers to clear any obstacles that hinder these states to achieve balance and success. Recognizing and Addressing Internal Conflicts Peralta provides insightful advice for fathers to recognize that many conflicts may originate within themselves. By addressing their own internal struggles, fathers can transform their approach to relationships, leading to healthier and more fulfilling connections with their daughters. This self-awareness and emotional literacy are critical components of effective parenting. The Continuous Journey of Personal Growth Dr. Christopher Lewis reminds listeners that personal growth is an ongoing journey. Both he and Peralta acknowledge that fatherhood presents continuous opportunities for learning and transformation. The key is to remain open to growth and seek support when necessary, which ultimately benefits both the father and the daughter. The podcast episode concludes with a call to action for fathers to embrace emotional healing, open communication, and unconditional love in their parenting journey. David Peralta's story serves as a powerful reminder of the transformative power of love and presence in fatherhood.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk with you, and walk with you on this journey that you're on in raising those amazing daughters that you're raising and helping them to be the strong, independent women that we always talk about. And to get there, we definitely do not have to do this alone. And the show is here to help you to see that, to be able to understand that experience that and to know that there are so many other people that are walking on this path alongside you that you can reach out to. Or if you're a little shy, you don't have to reach out. You can listen and you can learn and be willing to learn along the way because none of us know everything about fatherhood. We walk into fatherhood a lot of times not knowing much at all. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:18]: At least that was my experience. And you have to learn along the way. And society does not always champion being vulnerable in that way and putting yourself out there to say, I don't know, but you're going to be a better father when you do. So it is so important to be able to do that. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, different individuals with different experiences that can share the journey that they've been on to be able to help you in your own journey. And you can take you can pick and choose the things that you hear to be able to find those things that will work for you because not everything that's going to be shared is going to work for you. But there are many things that can work for you if you put them into place. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: David Peralta is with us today. And David is a father of a daughter. We're going to talk about that in his own journey as being a dad. He's also in charge of the soul centered founder. We're gonna talk about balance in life and and trying to find that holistic balance and what that looks like as a individual, what that looks like in your personal life or professional life, and how you can incorporate some of these different principles into the work that you're doing as a father as well. David, thanks so much for being here today. David Peralta [00:02:40]: Thanks so much for having me, Christopher. It's a pleasure to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I love doing, 1st and foremost, is I love having the power to turn back time. So I wanna go all the way back. I wanna go back to first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? David Peralta [00:02:55]: Well, so a lot was going on. My, my wife and I, we had gotten married 4 months prior. We had met just 4 months before that. It was very clear from the moment that we met that we had found the person that we were willing to commit to for the rest of our life, but we were not expecting to get pregnant so soon. And so when she took that pregnancy test because she missed her cycle, we were not expecting the result, but I'll never forget the moment I saw that us sign. I felt this incredible energy enter me that I knew this is the energy of the father. This is the divine fatherhood energy. Suddenly, I felt connected to it in a way that I did not know was possible. David Peralta [00:03:39]: And I felt that this was gonna be the the start of a brand new chapter in my life, and it was this profound love that I felt for this being that was now just starting to grow inside of my wife. So it was really, an incredible blend of emotion, of profound love, of a sense of purpose and destiny, and that was just the start. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:58]: I love that. And I think each of us have that different feeling as we're moving forward. Some of us are scared out of our minds. Some of us are elated, and a lot of us are a mixture of the 2. So and then as you move forward and you get closer to that due date and then you have a heavier child, then there's a whole different set of feelings that happens that come into place. Now I talk to a lot of dads, a lot of dads that are that have gone through different phases, stages within their own fatherhood. As you think about raising your daughter, and I know your daughter's 12 now, as you think back to these years that you've been with her, what's been your biggest fear in raising a daughter in today's society? David Peralta [00:04:40]: I've never thought about it that way in terms of my biggest fear. Well, so I have to put that a little bit differently. Yeah? Because, it's not it's not a fear that I've had in terms of raising her. It was the darkness that I had to face inside of myself that I didn't know I was gonna have to face. Yeah? The darkness that she brought up as just bringing her light into this world brought up this side of my self that I did not know was there. And so it wasn't so much a fear so much as it was the incredible challenge to have to meet that, discover that part of myself, and then learn how to overcome that part so that it wouldn't cause basically damage and destruction in in our relationship and in our life. This these unhealed wounded parts to myself that I didn't know I had been carrying. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:22]: Would you be willing to go a little deeper? David Peralta [00:05:24]: Oh, absolutely. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: Talk to me a little bit about what that darkness was for you and what you had to overcome as you were dealing with that. David Peralta [00:05:32]: Yeah. Absolutely. So to go a little bit back, back to that moment, actually, when I discovered that I was father. In the moment prior to that, my wife and I had been arguing. And because we were freshly married, we weren't really sure where we were gonna be going. We were in Austria at that time with her family. Were we gonna be living in the US? What were we gonna be doing? Our plan was actually to go back to India where we had met, and we were studying meditation. And so this discovery of this pregnancy completely through our life up in the air, we had no idea what we were gonna do. David Peralta [00:06:01]: To provide some additional context, right, for what was going on when I found out that I was gonna be a father. And so while I felt this incredible love, my wife started crying because she wasn't sure what this life together was going to be like, and all this uncertainty that she was feeling, and also some conflict that was coming up in our relationship. And so that continued during the pregnancy as we continued to get to know each other. Basically, what we discovered was that we both had a lot of wounding from our childhood that we were bringing into the relationship. We were not aware of this at this point. The way that this manifested in our relationship was fighting, blaming. Anytime one of us hurt the other, it was really that wound being triggered in each of us, and the other one was simply the catalyst for that wounding for the trigger, excuse me, for the triggering of that wound, but we didn't realize that at that time. It took us over 10 years before we got to this point of realizing this. David Peralta [00:06:57]: So the point is this. We're arguing a lot during the pregnancy. We're fighting a lot during the pregnancy, and there's also a lot of love, but then this continues during our daughter's early years. My my wife has since so first of all, jump forward. We have reached an incredible point in our relationship, just so that people know we've gotten through the mud and we're back to this state of incredible profound love for each other. My wife ended up becoming a, a counselor for women, and during her studies what she discovered is that what happens during the pregnancy and what happens during infancy has a I mean, she didn't discover this. This is known, but we learned this together. It has a profound impact on the life of a child, that the emotions and the experiences that a child is exposed to while in the womb and any conflict and any stress that a child is exposed to in those early years, that affects how the brain is wired. David Peralta [00:07:49]: That affects the kind of stress response that a child is gonna have for the rest of its life. Right? They're gonna come into a world that rather than feeling safe and full of unconditional love, potentially they're gonna enter a world where they feel like there's lots of conflict, there's lots of anger, there's lots of all kinds of emotions that are overwhelming for a baby. So by the time my daughter reaches 3 years old, she's grown up in this environment. There's also love, but there's definitely not an absence of negativity. That was definitely there. And so, she starts to show this behavior in very challenging ways. In other words, she starts to act out. She starts to act out and show I'm feeling all these emotions. David Peralta [00:08:30]: They're uncomfortable for me. I cannot stand them. I can't stand all these feelings that I've been having, and so there's a lot of fighting. My wife and I are still unconscious at this time. We're still not picking this up, and so we believe that she's misbehaving. And me, in particular, I tend to get rigid in the face of that, and so I punish her even further, which just compounds the behavior because not only is she trying to express that she's uncomfortable with what she's feeling, but now I'm punishing her for it. And so it creates this spiral of conflict and eventually violence where she starts to get physically violent with us, and we still don't get it. I still don't get it until it climaxes when she's about 7 years old. David Peralta [00:09:15]: And we've gotten so helpless and so hopeless, and we don't know what to do, and we're dealing with so much stress as a result of these challenges that we're facing with her and with each other. And then that's when we realize that we need help. That's when we realize that the resources that we've got by ourselves are not enough. We didn't have proper examples in our relationships with our parents. We didn't have anybody telling us what to do. We didn't have anybody showing us, right, the way, and certainly nobody who said it was potentially going to be like this. And so as a result of this, my daughter was basically showing, you are carrying all this conflict inside of you. You have to deal with this conflict, and you need to stop projecting it onto me. David Peralta [00:10:01]: And so that was the start of a multi year process where we began to understand this and discover this and learn how to heal that conflict that we were carrying inside of ourselves. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:14]: Sounds like quite a journey and definitely something that is ongoing because you don't just heal right away. You don't just unveil what that trauma per se is. Because as you said, it was unconscious to you, that it was ingrained in your personality, ingrained in who you were, and you had to unpack all of that for yourself to be able to be that better parent that you wanted to be for your child. Now, and this might be that might have been the hardest part. But I guess one of the questions that I have is as you look back at the last 12 years for you, what's been the hardest part specifically of being a father to a daughter? David Peralta [00:10:57]: Yeah. So the hardest part was when I realized the hardest part was getting back in touch with my sensitivity. And what I mean by that is I now recognize that I was born super sensitive, very sensitive heart, very sensitive soul, and so easily overwhelmed by negative emotions, easily overwhelmed by pain. My parents both, you know, like many parents carrying their own unresolved wounds and trauma, you know, they were carrying this pain themselves, and so it was just too much for me as a child. And so the way that I survived that was by really shutting down parts of my heart, really shutting down my ability to feel emotion. And I didn't know that because I always saw myself as a very loving, caring person. But when I saw this anger start to come up, this was also part of the most difficult thing was I considered myself a very calm person my entire life, and it was only when my daughter really reached the peak of her behavior that I saw a level of anger and explosiveness come up in me that I did not know was in me, and it was scary for everybody. It was scary for her, it was scary for my wife, and it was scary for me. David Peralta [00:12:07]: And so that was one of the most challenging things, but even more challenging than that was once it started to become clear that this was the root of the issue, that this pain that I was carrying was the root of the conflict with my wife and with my daughter. When I first started therapy sessions, specifically somatic experiencing therapy, and I had to start feeling the emotions that I had kept buried for so long, that was hands down the most difficult thing that I had to do because I had, at that point, like, 37, 38 plus years of having just basically shut down to these feelings. And so I remember in the beginning, it was I almost couldn't do it. It was like I could just tap into it for a millisecond, and then I felt overwhelmed, and I felt like it was too much. But I knew I had to do it because I knew that this was the only way that I was gonna develop that loving relationship that I had always envisioned. I'd always imagined myself as being a loving father. And I knew that the only way to reach that vision that I'd had for myself for so long was to go through this pain. And that was the most difficult thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:25]: So you went through this process for yourself, this process of unveiling this pain for yourself so that you could be that better father, this work that you put in, it's not always easy, it's going to definitely take time. How has it made you a better father in the end? David Peralta [00:13:41]: It hasn't just made me a better father. It has restored me to being a human being because I had not been a human being. I had been a functioning human. I had been a surviving human. I had been, I'm getting by human, but I had not been a human being. And what I mean by that is what I feel now is a human being is able to feel everything. A human being's heart is open to every experience, positive and negative, And and and that heart is able to hold all of those experiences and and gives us a profound sense of peace, a profound sense of contentment, a profound sense of of stillness. And so once I started to experience also, like, this joy of living, of just being alive, not not even accomplishment. David Peralta [00:14:34]: I didn't have to do anything to feel joy. I simply felt joyful once a certain level had been unblocked and uncovered. And so, of course, if I am radiating that, if I am embodying that, then that is what I am modeling for my children. And now, because I'm not carrying all of this pain that felt overwhelming, there is now space. There was never space for anybody else's feelings because I was already overwhelmed with what I was carrying. Anybody else's intense emotions? No. No space for you. You've got to stop it. David Peralta [00:15:13]: You've got to calm down, but now there was space. So now if my daughter's having an outburst, there is much more space for me to be present for her, for me to recognize that she's in pain, for me to recognize that she needs comforting, that she needs an unconditionally loving figure as she's in the presence of expressing this pain. And this is an ongoing process. Right? I'm not completely through this, but these are the ways in which it has made me a much more present, a much more loving, a much more understanding, a much more compassionate father. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:47]: So talk to me a little bit about how you've taken all of this, all this work that you've done on yourself, and how you're helping your daughter to be able to take what you've learned to incorporate it into her own life. David Peralta [00:16:04]: Yeah. So a lot of it, like I said, is simply embodying. Simply being this is the first thing. And then the second thing is to have completely I shouldn't say completely because I'm still in the process of doing this, but to do a way of the mister fix it model. In other words, the part of me that always felt like if there's a problem, I have to fix it. If my daughter is having a problem, I have to fix it. If my wife is having an issue, I have to fix it. Right? I have to help them fix it, and now I listen, and I give space. David Peralta [00:16:30]: And my daughter says that she can finally talk to me, And so she shares with me a whole lot more than she did before. And so this helps her to tap into her feelings and her emotions when she's having a hard time. And this is still a struggle for her because she's also still carrying an overwhelming amount of this pain that she carried from childhood. So we're still in the process of helping her process and integrate all of that. But the point is, if from where I am, I can love her unconditionally for who she is, regardless of how she behaves, then she feels seen, she feels accepted for who she is, she feels loved for who she is not for what she does and not for how she behaves. And I have seen this bring back this light into her eyes that started to go dead during these most challenging years. And so I have seen this express I've seen this light express itself through her and help her discover a passion for theater and a passion for dance, and I see this light come out in these things, and I haven't had to do anything for that light to express itself other than to be in that light in myself, recognize that light in her, and love that light in her, and then she just naturally blossoms. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:55]: Now I know that you are really talking I mean, you're talking a bit about balance, that balance of what we do in our lives and how we find that balance, which is not always easy to find. And some would say that it's not that we can't find a true balance, that there is not a way to find that true balance. I don't know if that's true, but I think that we can work toward finding a balance. And I know that you do that. You work to try to find that equilibrium in our work life, our personal life, our full self, as you were talking about. Talk to me about how what you've learned yourself and what you've what you're doing to incorporate that into the people that you work with. And are there certain things that we can do that you and I can do on a daily basis to start this process for ourselves? David Peralta [00:18:47]: So this to me is the essence of what we call success. In other words, I believe we have a really distorted model of success that's built on accomplishment as opposed to embodiment. I believe, true success is when we embody the states that we want to be, and that this is more important, and that this is what enables us to do what it is that we want to do. So in other words, there's a lot of people, a lot of men, a lot of fathers who have visions of businesses that they wanna create. Right? There's things that they wanna do, and there's things that they wanna accomplish, and they end up finding that there's a lot of obstacles in their way, and they struggle, and they and they spend their energy in a 1000000 different directions, and they put so much of their energy into their work to try to get it either off the ground or keep it operating, or once it's operating to get it to the next level, and so there's this profound lack of balance. So much of their energy goes to their work, and so little energy goes to the rest of their life. And what I have been discovering in my own life and through the mentors, and teachers that I've worked with is that this is a backwards approach, and that the foundation for success in what we do comes from love, and that love comes from our relationships, and that love comes from ourselves. So in other words, we have to have love for ourselves, love for who we are, and acceptance of who we are, and all these things, and then we can have love in our relationships, and that love is this empowering energy which fills us with life. David Peralta [00:20:18]: We have love in our relationships with our spouses, and we have love with our children. That love is a creative energy. It's a creative force. So then when we have a vision for what we wanna create in this world to our business, that vision is now empowered by love. And so by being empowered by love, the act of creating that vision is so much more smooth. It's so much more in harmony, and it is so much more synchronous with the rest of life that it it doesn't just feel like I mean, I believe we are interconnected with life and with everything. The universe essentially responds to us. The universe responds to our intention, and it responds to what it is that we're trying to create. David Peralta [00:21:03]: And it helps to create that because it's responding to that creative force that is flowing through us that love. And, so, the foundation of success is developing that love and clearing out whatever's blocking that love in our life. And, so, I would say the first step that people can take is to want to do that. In other words, to recognize that if things are out of balance, perhaps things are out of things are not necessarily out of balance in life around us, they're out of balance inside of us. And so we have to have that desire to discover how to create that balance, the desire to discover what is blocking that balance inside of us, what is blocking that love inside of us. And then once we have that desire, once we have that intention, then it's my belief and experience that life will respond, and life will start to bring to us the people that we need, the lessons that we need, the teachings that we need to discover how to unblock that, and then how to, you know, step by step continue moving forward into embodying that love. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]: And embodying that love, like you were saying, some of some there's going to be people that there's going to be dad a dad that is listening right now that is saying, I have no clue what you're talking about. I have no clue. How do I embody that for myself? How do I embody that for my my child? What would you say to them? David Peralta [00:22:28]: Yeah. So so what I would say is, like, where is the conflict in your life? Is the conflict with your spouse? Is the conflict with your child? Is there a specific behavior that is the core trigger of that conflict? How do you feel when that behavior, when that conflict is taking place? That's the core. So in other words, if when I'm with my daughter and she would start to really act up in a certain way, I would start to feel angry. So that was the root. So the first thing I have to do is I have to start becoming aware of that anger. I have to start feeling that anger in a healthy setting. Right? Not in a setting where I'm reacting to my daughter, but I have to later on, either with a therapist or a friend or somebody, you know, who can hold space, I have to think back on that moment when my daughter or my wife acted a certain way, and I felt angry. And then, I start to feel that anger. David Peralta [00:23:17]: And what does that feel like? It feels hot. It feels uncomfortable. I feel full of rage. And then, once I start to tap into it enough, I start to integrate it. It doesn't it stops being suppressed. It stops being explosive. And then once I can feel that, then I can start to ask myself, what do I feel angry about? And then I can start to feel what is underneath the anger and, oh, I feel freshly sad, or I feel really hurt that when I was a child, I was not given space for who I was. I was treated this way, or I was treated that way. David Peralta [00:23:54]: So the core is hook into what is the conflict what is the conflict in your life at the moment, and then what emotions and what inner feelings does that conflict bring up? That's where we start, and that is the road. The emotions that we feel are the path to unconditional love. Feeling those emotions leads us straight back into the heart and into love. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:17]: I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is a continuum. As I said before, it is not something that is going to be a static thing, you're going to have to keep working on it. It is not something that you're going to fix in one fell swoop. So all of the things that David has talked about, as you heard, he started working on this a long time ago, and he's still working on it today. So know that if you want to make these changes for yourself, that it is not going to be a quick fix. And you're going to have to understand that and be willing to to work on it and to be able and be willing to work on it for years to come. David Peralta [00:25:02]: I love the saying of the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:10]: I love that. Yeah. I think that it's very true. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Absolutely. In one word, what is fatherhood? David Peralta [00:25:22]: Love. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:23]: When was a time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter? David Peralta [00:25:29]: When my daughter opened her heart and started sharing the pain that she had felt when she was younger, and that she was starting to feel and restore this trust in me that had been lost. Now if I was to talk to your daughter, how would she describe you as a dad? David Peralta [00:25:43]: Hopefully funny and loving and maybe irritable. I think, I think I still have that that tendency when she when she rubs me a certain way. That's my reaction, And so I have to watch. But I believe then she would say that, yes, she has a very loving, humorous father who still needs to keep working on himself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? David Peralta [00:26:05]: Oh, my father. Absolutely. He was that unconditional love, and I never saw him get angry. No. It was not true. Once. Once. I one time saw him get angry, and he held that space for us as children even in spite of his past. David Peralta [00:26:18]: So, yeah, definitely my father. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:20]: Now we've talked about a lot of different things. Things that you had to do to be a better father. Things that you're working with other people on to help them be better parents. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? David Peralta [00:26:34]: One piece of advice that I'd like to give to every dad is I don't know about every dad, but to people who are still in a state of conflict with others, with their wife and with their kids, to consider the possibility that the conflict is not with them, but that the conflict is inside of us, and that we are bringing conflict to the relationship rather than constantly seeing the relationships as a source of conflict. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:01]: Now, David, if people wanna find out more about you and the soul centered founder or just to get to know you better, where should they go? David Peralta [00:27:10]: They can go to soul centered founder.com. That's the site for this organization. And if anybody's interested in just having a conversation or kinda just sharing about their experience, you can actually just book a free discovery call with me. And I'm I'm happy to talk to anybody at all about what their experience has been. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:27]: Well, David, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today, and I wish you all the best. David Peralta [00:27:34]: Thank you so much, Christopher. Really appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:36]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dotorg. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:25]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Fatherhood is a profound journey marked by growth, challenges, and unwavering love. In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, Michigan Supreme Court Judges Michael Cavanagh andhis daughter, Megan Cavanagh, a dynamic father-daughter duo, shared their insights on navigating fatherhood, fostering strong father-daughter relationships, and excelling in male-dominated fields. Let's delve into their engaging discussion and discover the wisdom they imparted. Michael Cavanagh: A Reflection on Responsibility Michael Cavanagh's journey into fatherhood was met with excitement and determination. However, he also faced the daunting task of raising daughters in a society dominated by male narratives. Through his experiences, he emphasizes the pivotal role of fathers in empowering their daughters and challenging societal norms. Michael's dedication to instilling values of resilience, respect, and determination in his children serves as a guiding light for fathers navigating similar paths. Megan Cavanagh: A Journey of Empowerment Megan Cavanagh's narrative reflects a tale of empowerment and resilience fostered by her father's unwavering support. Encouraged to pursue male-dominated fields such as engineering and law, Megan embodies the spirit of breaking barriers and embracing challenges. Her evolution from engineering to law and eventually appellate law showcases the importance of parental guidance in empowering daughters to follow their aspirations. Megan's story exemplifies the transformative power of parental support in shaping a daughter's journey to success. Navigating Male-Dominated Fields: Michael Cavanagh: Guiding Through Example Michael Cavanagh's concern over the lack of female representation in fields like law and patent law highlights the need for inclusivity and support in traditionally male-dominated areas. His emphasis on guiding daughters to pursue knowledge, seek information, and make informed decisions underscores the importance of cultivating a generation of empowered women. Michael's advocacy for encouraging daughters to study grammar and Latin intertwines with his core belief in the significance of expressing love and fostering a nurturing environment. Megan Cavanagh: Defying Expectations Megan Cavanagh's journey from initially pursuing a career in engineering to transitioning into law and politics showcases her defiance of societal expectations. With her father's unwavering support and guidance, Megan navigated through uncharted waters to establish a career path aligned with her passions. Her experience highlights the transformative impact of parental encouragement in breaking stereotypes and creating opportunities for daughters in traditionally male-dominated fields. Balancing Work and Family Life: The Evolution of Work-Life Balance Michael Cavanagh's reflection on the evolution of work-life balance, particularly in his role as a judge, highlights the transformative impact of technology on modern parenthood. His ability to balance work commitments with quality family time, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic, underscores the importance of adaptability and resilience in nurturing familial bonds. Michael's insights shed light on the shifting landscape of parenthood and the significance of finding harmony between professional and personal spheres. Megan Cavanagh: A Testament to Resilience Megan Cavanagh's experience of pursuing a career in law and running for office underscores the complexities of balancing ambition with familial responsibilities. With her father's initial resistance and eventual support, Megan navigated through challenges to establish her presence in the legal and political spheres. Her journey epitomizes the spirit of resilience, determination, and familial support in overcoming obstacles and achieving personal and professional milestones. In an engaging dialogue filled with insights and wisdom, Michael and Megan Cavanagh shed light on the transformative power of fatherhood, the significance of parental guidance, and the essence of empowering daughters in male-dominated fields. Their stories serve as testaments to the enduring bond between fathers and daughters, the importance of breaking barriers, and the resilience required to navigate through life's challenges. As we embark on our own journeys of fatherhood and empowerment, let us draw inspiration from the experiences shared by Michael and Megan Cavanagh and strive to create a nurturing and inclusive world for the daughters of tomorrow.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to be back with you again this week and to talk with you about this journey that you're on in raising your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be in their lives. And every week, I love being able to sit down with you. You know I've got 2 daughters myself, so I learn from you. I learn from our guests, and I love being able to have them on to talk about the journey that they've been on to be able to help you and give you some things to pull from to help you in this journey as well. Every week I bring you different guests, different people from different walks of life, with different experiences, had to have gone through this before you or maybe going through it at the same time. And this week, we've got 2 great guests, a father and a daughter. We don't always get to do that, and I love it when we can. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:13]: But today, we've got Michael Kavanaugh or Judge Michael Kavanaugh, I should say, that that, it wait. Let me stop it. We have Judge Michael Kavanaugh, who is a retired judge of the Michigan Supreme Court, and his daughter, Judge Megan Kavanaugh, also of the Michigan Supreme Court. And first, what was really great about this was not only talking about this journey that they've been on, but also the fact that one of the interesting things was that Megan was the first child to have joined her parent as a member of the court since 18/57. So that's a pretty amazing feat in itself. So I love that we're able to have Michael and Meaghan both here today to talk about this journey that they're both on. Thank you both for being here today. Michael Cavanagh [00:01:56]: Good to be here. Megan Cavanagh [00:01:57]: Thank you for having us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And, Michael, I wanna start with you. I wanna go back in time. I wanna go all the way back, all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head? Michael Cavanagh [00:02:10]: That was with Meghan's older sister. And reflecting on that, it was probably one of the brightest, most exciting moments of my life. It was our first child, and she was our first child. And she was born at 5 in the morning, and I remember leaving the hospital saying to myself, I'm gonna be the best dad in the world. I'm gonna take care of this child, and I'm gonna do everything I can to make life easier for I mean, I was really pumped. Then I got, of course, involved in my career. And truth be known, my wife took on the real heavy lifting in making the world great for our oldest child. We then had a son, and after, he arrived 2 or 4 years after that, our daughter Megan arrived. Michael Cavanagh [00:03:19]: And the feelings were very similar when all 3 arrived. But that first one was something special. It was alright, man. Now you're a dad, and you're gonna have to quit screwing around and get serious and make sure that you have the stamina and mental fortitude to succeed and achieve what you wanna do so you can make life easier for your daughter. I'm sure many fathers on their arrival of their first daughter shared similar feeling, but it was very euphoric. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:59]: So, Michael, one of the things that I hear from a lot of dads is that in having daughters, that there is some fear that goes along with them. You've had daughters and sons, so you can kind of relate to both experiences. What was your biggest fear in raising daughters in society today? Michael Cavanagh [00:04:14]: I guess a fear was that it was so male oriented, society was. And, you know, and this was only, what, it would have been in the, late 1960, almost 70. But dads were still the stereotypical bring home the bacon and do things like that and let mother do the child rearing. And when you're out there in the world as I was in particular in politics, I think you get a special appreciation of the current trends and moods, and I guess I just wanted and hope that she would be able, with our help, to find her way in a male dominated society. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]: And, Meaghan, when you hear that yeah. I mean, you've gone through your career. You've moved to into politics yourself. And as you heard your father just say, you know, he tried to do what he could to be able to help you and your sister to be able to maneuver through that male dominated society. And society's changed over the years. What do you feel that your dad did to prepare you for the road that you chose to be on in the world that you stepped into as you moved in and through your career? Megan Cavanagh [00:05:35]: Yeah. I think when he was describing that as a concern or a fear that he had, you know, the first thing that popped into my mind was when I was deciding to go to college and where and do blood and what I'm gonna do sort of thing and getting counsel and advice from my parents and figuring these sort of things out, He was actually probably one of the strongest urgers of me going into engineering, into what is at the time less so now, but at the time, a very male dominated profession. And so I think, like, recognizing that that was sort of a concern is that he didn't pass that, to me as a reason to be cautious about it or not consider it or hold back from that or what have you. Instead, it was do this. And in fact, the fact that there aren't that many or there weren't that many women in engineering is something that you should sort of capitalize on and embrace. And it's really interesting because I I have a 17 year almost 18 year old daughter who is going in the same process and is looking at engineering. And so as we're going through looking at all these different things, I just saw the field that she's looking at or the department that she's looking at and wanting to go to at the University of Michigan in engineering is 57% female student body, which is which is really amazing. But, yes, I think what he did was, obviously, he was aware of it and it was something he thought of and a concern, but he didn't pass on that concern to me. Megan Cavanagh [00:07:08]: And he didn't suggest to me that that was a reason to be cautious about doing it. As far as going into the legal profession and then into politics or running for election. Again, that was much later. I was I ran for office in 2018, a much different, you know, time than the late eighties when I went to college. But I think that the landscape had changed a lot. It wasn't, you know, as far as women in the profession of being lawyers and being judges. We currently, on the Supreme Court, have a female majority on the court. There's 4 out of the 7 of us are women, and we're not the first. Megan Cavanagh [00:07:47]: I think we're the 4th female majority on on court. So so I think that was that's sort of the the takeaway for me was that it was the recognition that he had that it was a male it was male dominated or concern wasn't a reason to sort of make him hesitate or suggest that I should. So I think looking back, I don't know what that dynamic would have been like. But he was like, look at this. It's gonna be you know, why don't you go into something different that's an easier path or a more traditional path or something like that? I will say I did follow his advice to go into engineering. I didn't. He actually encouraged me not to go into law and not to go into appellate law, and that's not a female thing. It was more we just have a very we have a ton of lawyers in our family. Megan Cavanagh [00:08:41]: And I think it was the the uniqueness and and that not, as many people, let alone women, could do engineering, and that would be a good thing to do. And I didn't follow that advice in part because I think the other qualities that I inherited from him and learned from him was by that time I knew what I what was right for me and could make those sort of decisions. I knew who I was, what I enjoyed, what I was good at, what motivated and fulfilled me and that was sort of more of the motivator as opposed to, you know, him saying we have too many lawyers. We're sort of, we joke we're we're a useless family because we can't build or fix anything. Right? All we do is either cause or try and solve problems. Michael Cavanagh [00:09:24]: I thought you were going to mention the fact that I made you diagram sentences as I did your 2 older siblings. But your teachers in high school at the conferences I attended said you had a terrific ability in math and with figures. I had a math degree in high school, but how I got through plain and solid geometry and trigonometry is beyond me. I thought I hated it. But I thought, alright. Your counselors in high school certainly said, you ought to be headed for engineering, and I would delight it when you did that. But it's it's kind of ironic that once you entered law and passed that, you landed back in a, heavily male oriented surroundings in the area of patent law. And there are very few female patent lawyers, and when they find one nowadays that has a background in science or engineering, They grabbed them up pretty quickly and slapped those golden handcuffs on them that you referred to, very impressive starting salaries and benefits. Michael Cavanagh [00:10:44]: So it was an interesting background. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:47]: You know, one of the things that you said, Meghan, was that by the time that you decided to go to law school and then run for office, you knew who you were, you knew what you wanted, and you had a direction. And it sounds like through your life that you had support to get you to that point. What did your father do to help you to pave that way for you, to help you to see that direction that you wanted for your life? Megan Cavanagh [00:11:14]: I think that trajectory I always when I'm talking usually to to students, be they, you know, 4th graders or law students or anything in between. I sort of use my trajectory as an example of, like, you don't know where you're gonna end up from where you are now. Right? And and there's a huge push, and I'd say this as a mother of teenagers. Right? Like, to like, you're supposed to know at 16 what you're gonna do at 55. Right? And that's just not feasible. And I use that example. I mean, because I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17. I didn't really like that sort of I didn't know. Megan Cavanagh [00:11:50]: I listened to people who told me this is what you are good at and you should do this sort of thing, and I ended up in engineering. And I wasn't, to be honest, a huge fan of it. I worked for a couple of years. I did environmental engineering. Afterwards, I liked working in the field more than I did studying engineering, and that actually sort of made me a bit hesitant about going to law school. But I got to law school and it was really there was, like, this huge exhale. It was like, oh, this is me. They teach the way I learn. Megan Cavanagh [00:12:19]: They think the way, that sort of thing. It really was a fit. And then when I got out, as my dad mentioned, I was like, well, I should use them both. So I'll go into patent law and I should do that and found that it it really wasn't for me. I it was so it was for me, it was sort of like learning, trying a lot of things and then finding out whether or not it wasn't tuning into that. I really like to write and research and the area of Patmos that I was in, that wasn't it. And so I ended up back in appellate law. And again, I had that same sort of, this is where I'm supposed to be. Megan Cavanagh [00:12:51]: I think what helped me, you know, what my dad did that helped me was being supportive of that. Not always saying yes and agreeing with me on it, but helping me being open to it and helping me sort of think through it so that I could figure out what it is that is mine, you know, my thoughts and my my wants or what have you and what and to separate that out from what others say I should or shouldn't do. You know, and I think that it's part of his personality. I think it's also part of profession. He was a judge for a very long time. He was a judge on the Supreme Court for 31 years and six years before that on the Court of Appeals and, I don't know, a couple of years on the district court beforehand. But I would always people would always say, oh, your dad must hold court at the dinner table or something like that. Really, it wasn't the case. Megan Cavanagh [00:13:39]: He was the one who would, like, sort of toss out a topic or an idea or a thought or what have you and then sit back and listen to how other people think about it and hear it, which makes sense. That's what we do on the Supreme Court. Right? We have like, cases don't get up to us unless they're tough cases and there are good arguments on both sides, and our job primarily is to hear out all of the arguments and the reasons and the thoughts and that sort of thing. But I think in doing that, I mean, he did that as a profession, and I think he did that as a dad of listening probably first rather than speaking, and it was more important for him to hear what other people had to say than for me to hear what he thought about what I was doing. So I think that's a big thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:22]: And Michael, I know earlier you said that you gave your wife a lot of kudos for helping to raise your kids and because you were in a very demanding and a very active career that pulled you in, took a lot of time. Talk to me about what you had to do to be able to maintain and build those relationships that you still wanted with your daughters, even though you had such a a public role and a role that took you away from your family as well. Michael Cavanagh [00:14:56]: Well, I think I was particularly fortunate in that when I left the trial court, which required me to be on the bench every day, 5 days a week. The appellate court, the 8 years I spent on the Michigan Court of Appeals, and then as Megan mentioned, 32 on the Supreme Court. An awful lot of that can be done, well, 90% of it maybe. That might be an exaggeration, but it deals with reading. Endless briefs, records, former opinions, research, and, you know, it's amazing. Even during that period, I was able to bring a lot of work home and fit some of the parenting functions with the the work of the court. And I think that was a unique benefit to me to be able to do. I think so many working fathers are in their particular job or profession 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and it's my hands on. Michael Cavanagh [00:16:10]: I think today, it's even greater with, after COVID with everything being the Zoom conference, for example. Megan's in Troy. I'm in Lansing. A lot is achievable. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]: A lot is definitely achievable now where you couldn't have that in so many ways before COVID. So you're definitely right in that regard. Now, Meaghan, I I would I know that you said that your dad, when you said that you wanted to go to law school, has tried to convince you not to do that, and you paved your path and ended up going in that direction. And after some years, you did decide to run for office. Talk to me about that experience for you and the experience of going to your dad to talk to him about that decision and what that was like for you? Megan Cavanagh [00:17:01]: It's odd because it's a lot of those decisions whether to go to law school, whether to do appellate law, you know, leave patent law, do appellate law, whether to run for statewide election for the supreme court were things that he had literally done. Right? But in very different environments. Right? Like, thinking of the difference between, like, when running. I mean, he was first elected, I think, in 82. Yeah. And I was running in 2,000 and 18 and just just a tremendous difference in how elections were run, the amount of money that's required, how you reach voters, how much more sort of aware people are now about the supreme court and what it does and are engaged in that sort of thing. And it was great to have I'm incredibly fortunate. I'd say that today. Megan Cavanagh [00:17:55]: I mean, I literally look at cases all day that he has done the same job that I did that I'm doing. Right? So and a lot of what we do obviously as a court and as the institution is it's not just what I think. It's not even just what the 7 of the current justices think. It's an institution. It's it's something, you know, sorry decisive precedent that's existed for a long time, and and I have this incredible resource, this institutional memory of somebody who has, in any kind of environment, who has done the thing that I am confronting now even if it's in a very different environment, you know, like, even something like interpersonal relationships with your colleagues or something. He I mean, I think it's so unique, and I'm so fortunate to have that experience of and that resource of being able to do that because I don't think that many people can do it. So, like, for me, it was this sort of like, oh my gosh. This is great, and I have this opportunity, and isn't this wonderful? And I'm so fortunate, but at the same time, like, having to navigate, like, well, that isn't necessarily like, when you did it, it's it's a different like, knowing what's similar and what's different now. Megan Cavanagh [00:19:12]: Right? And sort of like what I had mentioned before of figuring out, like, what works for me or who I am and and knowing that sort of thing, I think it has helped. I need to know that difference. It's like, yes. You ran a statewide election, and you have opinions on how I should do it. Well, I might have different opinions based on this is a different time or this is my experience or people are telling me something different or that. And, again, like, it's just a knowing sort of where and what's the advice and what's eventually, it has to be my decision of of what I'm doing. And I think that that all stems from, like I said, I don't know what it would look like if his response to any of that were, well, this is how I did it. This is the only way to do it. Megan Cavanagh [00:19:55]: Or if you're not gonna listen to my advice, then I'm gonna stop giving you my advice. Yeah. I mean, there's a 1,000 different reactions that somebody you know, that somebody in his position position could give me in that reaction instead of saying, yeah. This is how I did it. And then they said, Megan Cavanagh [00:20:06]: and I think that was the right way. Megan Cavanagh [00:20:07]: And I also have opinions about how I think you should do it, but I also trust that you can figure that out on your own. So so I think that's that I'm very fortunate that that was that's the response that he gives over and over whether again, whether it's getting into law in the 1st place or whether it's running for statewide election or whether it's how do you handle this difficult dynamic that you've got going on in your own chambers. Michael Cavanagh [00:20:33]: I was just gonna say the nature of the job, I think, lends itself to forcing you to adapt to a change. You know, Michigan is unique in that all judgeships are nonpartisan. They appear on the nonpartisan ballot. But for supreme court, to get on the ballot, you have to be nominated by a political party. So you go through that process of getting nominated and then miraculously walk out the door and become nonpartisan. And it's once you are elected, then you are certainly not supposed to be partisan, and so you strive to keep your head low and stay out of partisan politics or those disputes. And for the supreme court in 8 year term, you emerge 8 years later after your first term, and I had 4 8 year terms on the court. But you emerge at the end of the term, finding that probably 70% of the players are different. Michael Cavanagh [00:21:48]: They've died. They've retired. The people you need to contact, you know, for support for reelection, and you have to go through that process again. So I think adapting to what Meghan had to do, being different in many respects from what I had, I benefited from my past experience. Megan Cavanagh [00:22:11]: I always say that, like, when you're running for a judge that if you're good at the running part, you're probably not a very good judge. Right? Like like, the very thing that you need to be good at to get the job is the opposite of what you need to be to be good at doing the job, which is staying out of that. You can't say this is what I think about this or this is, you know, I have these very strong opinions and this is how I would decide this. I mean, you're just you can't do that as a judge. Right? Like but it's a unique system that we have in Michigan. But it's so there's a lot of downfalls or negatives to that, but I think one of the positives, it ensures that you have some accountability to the people that you're serving, you know, and if you're just appointed or even running for retention elections or something like that way different states do it, you don't you don't have the opportunity or the need to get out and and actually see the people that are voting for you and that your decisions are affecting their lives across the state, pluses and minuses. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]: Now, Michael, you just talked about the fact that as you are on the court, you gotta keep your head low. You gotta understand the political dynamics around you, but try to keep out of the fray. And I'm sure that along the years on the court and in your own home, you modeled by example and allowed for your kids to learn from example. What were some of the things that you did to try to teach your kids those lessons that you were learning on the court that would help them in their lives? Michael Cavanagh [00:23:36]: Well, that's hard to categorize. I guess I tried to keep them from being judgmental, ironically, too fast to not take a glib from social media and think that that's all there is to a question or a problem. And to try and if it's interesting enough to them to find out all they can about it before they come down one way or another with a decision. And I think that's crucial in my way of thinking to being a good judge, to trying to be as informed as possible, weighing both sides. And as Megham said, the Supreme Court, if they're doing their job correctly, is taking very gray cases. There are great arguments on both sides in most cases. Otherwise, they wouldn't be up there at the Supreme Court. So it's difficult, and it's all the more important that they be as widely informed as possible. Megan Cavanagh [00:24:48]: Yeah. In terms I was gonna answer maybe this is where the diagramming sentences comes into. It was very big on study. He would make us diagram sentences even though we weren't required to do that in school. But I think, you know, if anything, I'm putting in the work sort of for school and doing that and a big part of, I mean, that's what makes you a good writer is knowing how to use words and things like that or taking remember you took me to the state spelling bee. I still have the dictionary behind me from when I was in 8th grade. But so the hard work sort of thing, but it's that that was what he said because that was one of the first things that came to my mind. And I remember a specific case. Megan Cavanagh [00:25:28]: I don't want sort of go into it, but it had gotten a lot of media attention. I was in college at the time, but it was up in front of his court. It was in front of a couple of different courts, actually. But and there's a lot of media attention about it, and it was a very emotional issue. And there was definitely sort of a media narrative sort of on one side of the issue. And I remember being like any 19 or 20 year old where I knew all that I needed to know about it, and I, you know, shared that opinion with him. And his response was like, well, let's look at the other side of that. Did you know this? Did you know that? What would you think if this were part of it or what have you? And I always think of that, of we live in the gray in the Supreme Court. Megan Cavanagh [00:26:13]: Right? And that can be a very sort of frustrating thing for us as well as sort of the perception of what we do. It's like, well, some things should just be black and white. But I have found that mostly a lot of the stuff in life or the important stuff in life is in the gray. And there are two sides to most things. But I always recall that that incident of sort of going to him or, you know, whether it was I don't even know when it was, but it's saying, well, here's what this whole thing is about, you know, and here's my idea. And he's like, oh, really? Well, what did you do? What what about this sort of thing? And so that has always stuck with me. I'm like, oh, remember that. Michael Cavanagh [00:26:51]: I I have very distinct memories of those two experiences that Meg mentioned. I still, would like to throttle the reader at that spelling bee because as soon as he pronounced the word, and she was almost at the final, as soon as he pronounced the word, I knew she was gonna get it wrong because he mispronounced it. And sure enough, she got it wrong, but she came away with that addiction hurried behind her desk, and, it was interesting. I did a great did my best anyway, trying to control her on the way home from from that experience. And the other that she mentioned about a case, I'm pretty sure I know the case to which she refers, and it was really the subject of multimedia opinions, and it arose out of the hotbed of intellectualism and liberalism in Ann Arbor. And everybody. I was chief justice at the time and was on a flight to San Francisco for a conference of chief justices. And I think I think I might have had Meghan with me at that time, but I read in the New York Times an article on the case, and it started out from a totally false premise or wrong, I should say, not false implies intention, but it was a wrong premise. Michael Cavanagh [00:28:31]: And if you looked at that case based on the fact, you know, you had little choice but to come out a totally different way than the media which would have surmised. So that's interesting that she remembers it as I do, that those two events stick out in both our cobweb. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:54]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask 5 more questions to delve deeper, typically only into the dad's mind, but we're gonna go into both of your minds to get a little perspective here today. In one word, what is fatherhood? Michael Cavanagh [00:29:08]: Responsibility. For me, one word. Megan Cavanagh [00:29:10]: I say engagement. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]: Now, Megan, when was a time that you feel that your dad succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Megan Cavanagh [00:29:19]: There's a lot. I'm trying to think, you know, there are some of the obvious ones. You know, the first that came into my mind was not a particular event necessarily, but what came into my mind is when I had kids, when I first had my daughter. And my oldest daughter was there were some difficulty. I mean, she was it was I had difficulty getting pregnant, right, of she was IVF, and then there were some complications when she was born and she spent time in the NICU. And I guess in that regard of feeling sort of supported is where I think he definitely and just it's the most amazing thing, like, that nobody ever sort of can describe well enough, but it's the most amazing feeling to see he and my mom are they're the one people who love your kids as much as you love your own kid. Nobody else can sort of fill that role. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:12]: And, Michael, what about you? When was the time that you felt that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Michael Cavanagh [00:30:18]: Well, I don't know. I'm not sure I've arrived at that time yet. As as I've seen all 3 of our children evolve at different stages and arrive at where they have, come to rest currently. I feel that my wife and I have been successful, and it probably is a feeling that we've experienced each step along the way that you wish the best for them. You wish that they had a better opportunity than you did. Although, I certainly can't complain about the opportunities I had, but that they took advantage of them when they appeared to fit their circumstances. Every one of those made you feel well. Alright. Michael Cavanagh [00:31:10]: Maybe we've done something okay or something good. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:14]: Now, Megan, if I was to talk to you and your siblings, how would you describe your dad? Megan Cavanagh [00:31:19]: I would say it's sort of almost sort of contradictory. He's this larger than life. He's incredibly accomplished. He's done so many things, so many people outside of it. I mean, this is a unique thing. It's not just not very often where you have a whole state and a whole profession and a whole whatever who every time they see you are like, do you have any idea how great your dad is? So that's a unique experience we get. So we get that, and yet at the same time, knowing that he's really one of the most humble people I know, and I think that that is partly that makes him such a it makes him a great dad, and I think it's the same thing that made him a great judge is that he has he keeps that sort of humility. And I think in deciding cases that he was always like, you know what? You know, sort of there, but for the grace of God, go I. Megan Cavanagh [00:32:08]: Like, he has that humility of of I'm not really any different than the person that's coming in front of me with their issues. So it's like this huge sort of superstar in my world currently, but somebody who who doesn't see himself that way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:24]: And, Michael, who inspires you to be a better dad? Michael Cavanagh [00:32:27]: Yeah. That's interesting. My father grew up on a farm outside of Ottawa, Ontario in Canada and got to maybe the 6th grade. And I think at age 16 or 17, went to, Northern Ontario to work in a logging camp and then came back. He was the youngest of 7, so he didn't have a shot at inheriting the farm and wound up around 1915 coming to Detroit to get a job at ford motor company and he, worked at ford he went back and married my mother and then they came back, and all 6 of children were born in Detroit. But he worked at Ford for 42 years. He got up to 5:30 every morning, got on that bus with his lunch bucket, and, went to the boiler plant at Ford. How he did that for that length of time is beyond me, but he did. Michael Cavanagh [00:33:34]: And he was older when I was born. I was the last of the 6, and and my dad, I think, was about 52 when I was born. So he he wasn't able, really, to be that involved in the father's club or different events like that at the school. And he was a strong disciplinarian, but there was never a second. I think as long as any of I or any of our siblings thought about that, we didn't think he loved us. And it's interesting. He had he had trouble, I think, being emotional, although he was, but expressing him. So, like, I can never recall him telling me that he loved me, but there would never a doubt in my mind even, I mean, that the discipline was a form of love. Michael Cavanagh [00:34:33]: And I, you know, I still get a little moist in the eyes when I think of my wedding in Toronto. And, how he came into my room before I left for their church. I was finishing up with my bow tie or something, and he came in and kinda gave me a hug, which was not real usual for him and slipped me a $100 bill. And I'll never forget that. And it's, man. That was, I realized, a big effort for him. And it's interesting because I tried to not miss opportunities to tell my 3 children that I love them. And it's interesting. Michael Cavanagh [00:35:19]: Our kids wind up phone calls with us invariably with telling them they love us. So it was he was a great example. And as I say, he lived by example and showed me by example how a good father should be. But that was, you know, for him way back in, in the time of the father doing the work and providing the financial support and the mother doing all the raising. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:49]: Appreciate you sharing that. Now, Megan, you and your dad have both given different pieces of advice today, and I'm gonna give you both an opportunity to answer this question. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every father of a daughter? Megan Cavanagh [00:36:03]: I think if I did, I think and I try and do this myself, so it's not just necessarily limited to dads. But I think in raising kids is and it's it's hard. I find it very hard for me to do is admit when you're wrong and apologize because there's usually some part of whatever happened that, yes, the kid had some involvement in that, but there's any sort of negative interaction. There's there's some thing on your part as well. And even if you can't sort of always get it right, at least you can show them that you recognize that you didn't get it right. And I think it's really is a gift for them because they're not always gonna get it right. They're gonna make, you know that's why you're showing them by example. It's okay to admit that you've made mistakes, but when the the actually stronger thing to do is not just to get it right in the first place, but to recognize when you get it wrong and express that you're gonna try and do it better next time. Megan Cavanagh [00:37:00]: And that can be hard to do as a parent because a lot of times you're not supposed to get this you know, I'm not I'm supposed to have the answers. I'm supposed to do everything right. I'm supposed to get to the right place, but I think it it helps and help kids recognize that in recognizing that I am human, that they are human as well, and that they're gonna make mistakes, but that that's gonna be okay and that they can get better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:21]: What about you, Michael? What would you say in regards to a piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad of a daughter? Michael Cavanagh [00:37:27]: I might be kind of dated, but I guess I would urge them to urge their daughters to, diagram sentences, to take Latin in, to be sure and tell them that you love them. Megan Cavanagh [00:37:41]: Not necessarily in that order. Michael Cavanagh [00:37:42]: Certainly, the last of that is the most important. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:46]: Well, you could always say I love you in Latin, and kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Michael Cavanagh [00:37:49]: I'm okay. Megan Cavanagh [00:37:50]: I was gonna say he's gonna do it. I don't think I could even though I had some 2 years of it. Yeah. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:55]: Well, I wanted to say thank you. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Michael, for being here today, for sharing your own journey, and for being here with us. And I wish you both the best. Michael Cavanagh [00:38:05]: Thank you. It was enjoyable. Thank you so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:09]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.

In the realm of fatherhood and raising daughters, the concept of healthy masculinity plays a crucial role in shaping family dynamics and individual growth. The Dads with Daughters podcast recently featured Suraj Arshanapally, the founder of the multicultural man initiative, shedding light on the importance of cultural diversity and healthy masculinity. Through the power of storytelling and introspection, Suraj's journey encapsulates the evolution of masculinity, challenging stereotypes and encouraging authenticity in self-expression. Cultural Diversity and Personal Identity Suraj's upbringing in a bicultural household provided him with a unique perspective on masculinity and identity. Growing up with Indian heritage at home and American culture outside, he navigated conflicting messages about what it means to be a man. Suraj's experience with early facial hair development highlighted the impact of societal norms on self-perception. This narrative underscores the need to recognize and celebrate cultural differences in shaping individual identities and expressions of masculinity. Reframing Healthy Masculinity The concept of healthy masculinity, as explored by Suraj, emphasizes values that prioritize personal well-being and positive contributions to society. Through conversations with men from diverse backgrounds, Suraj discovered common themes of empathy, respect, and self-care as integral components of healthy masculinity. By rejecting outdated stereotypes and embracing introspection, men can redefine what it means to embody strength and vulnerability in their roles as fathers and community members. Fatherhood and Active Parenting A critical aspect of healthy masculinity lies in active fatherhood and caregiving roles. Suraj highlights the significance of modeling positive behavior and values for children, emphasizing the impact of parental actions on shaping a child's worldview. By fostering empathy, respect, and open communication within the family, fathers can cultivate a supportive environment that promotes individual growth and emotional well-being. Empowering Future Generations Looking towards the future, the multicultural man initiative aims to extend its reach to children, advocating for inclusive narratives and empowering young individuals to embrace their authentic selves. By promoting diverse representations of masculinity and encouraging self-expression from an early age, the initiative seeks to dismantle harmful stereotypes and foster a culture of acceptance and understanding among future generations. Encouraging Introspection and Dialogue In promoting healthy masculinity, fathers can play a pivotal role in fostering introspection and open dialogue with their children. By exposing children to diverse perspectives and challenging societal norms, fathers can instill values of empathy, inclusivity, and self-acceptance in the next generation. Through mindful language and supportive interactions, fathers can create a nurturing environment that nurtures individual growth and self-confidence. The intersection of cultural diversity, healthy masculinity, and fatherhood forms a compelling narrative that promotes personal growth, understanding, and empathy. The stories shared by Suraj Arshanapally and the multicultural man initiative serve as a beacon for individuals seeking to redefine masculinity, embrace authenticity, and cultivate meaningful connections within their families and communities. Through introspection, dialogue, and a commitment to positive change, fathers can lead by example in fostering a future where healthy masculinity thrives, and individuals are empowered to be their true selves.     TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to sit down, talk to you every week, be able to bring you different people that are going to open your minds and allow you to think about things in a little bit different way because it is so important for you and I to know that we don't have to do this alone. We don't have to go about fatherhood alone. There are so many people around us that can offer support, offer resources, offer a listening ear. Whatever it may be, There are many people that have gone before us, many people that will come after us that we can help along the way as well. That's what this show is all about. It is here to help you in this journey and for you and I to learn together because, as you know, I've got 2 daughters myself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: So it is important for me to learn and be open to learning and know that the learning doesn't stop as they get older. It continues, and we have to continue to be able to support our daughters as they get into adulthood as well. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests that can bring different perspectives for you to consider, for you to put tools in your own toolbox. And this week, we've got another great guest with us today. Suraj Arashnapalli is with us today. And Suraj is the founder of the multi cultural man, which is a initiative that uses storytelling to celebrate cultural diversity and healthy masculinity. So we're going to be talking about this journey that Siraj has been on to get people talking, to to really bring stories out into the open and to go even deeper into these stories. And I'm really excited to have him here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: Suraj, thanks so much for being here today. So I guess first and foremost, I mentioned that you started the multicultural management journey back in 2023. And I guess, 1st and foremost, I'd love to turn the clock back just a little bit. I'd love to for you to get into your head a little bit about why this was important to you, why you felt the calling to try to bring these stories out into the world. Suraj Arshanapally [00:02:37]: Started this in 2023, but I kind of wanna turn the clock a little bit more to my childhood. So my parents immigrated to the US from India. And what that did for me was gift me with 2 cultures. So I had Indian culture in my household and I had American culture everywhere else. And so I would parse out what customs and traditions and ideologies belong to each culture, but also what resonated with me. And growing up, I was really informative to my worldview and my identity, but simultaneously, I was also receiving a lot of messages around masculinity. So I would receive messages such as, like, boys and men do this, but they don't do that, or they can act this way, but they can act that way. And so I there it was really confusing trying to figure out who I could be and and how I wanted to move through the world. Suraj Arshanapally [00:03:32]: And something that I also recognized was that a lot of these messages didn't account for my cultural identity or my cultural experience. So one one story that I can share when around the time of puberty, maybe even a little bit earlier, my experience was that I grew facial hair much earlier than my peers. And my classmates found this confusing, and I found it confusing because I didn't know. I didn't see anyone that looked like me. And so what this did was, like, my facial hair was used as a reason to other me or differentiate me, and I ended up going clean shaven for, like, the next decade of my life because I associated facial hair to be abnormal through this messaging. But then at some point in my adulthood, that messaging flipped, and essentially, facial hair was seen in I thought And I thought, you know, this is really confusing because this is not the messaging that I received earlier on. And so what it taught me was that one, are the messages around masculinity are malleable. They evolve. Suraj Arshanapally [00:04:41]: They aren't set in stone, and so we shouldn't take them that way. And then it also taught me that we need to widen our definition of masculinity and the messaging around masculinity to encompass all types of men from different cultural backgrounds as well as people who identify with a masculine gender expression. And so I started to have conversations about this intersection with other men in my life and friends and found that my facial hair story was just one of many stories. There were, there were a lot of stories where men would tell me about a specific identity, whether it was, like, their queer identity or religious identity, or they would tell me about a specific aspect of their personality, like, they were an empathetic person or that they really connected with, you know, the the women in their lives. And those were used as reasons to differentiate them in their lives from the other men because it didn't fit into that quote, unquote norm when we think about masculinity or the messaging around masculinity. And I found this really unfortunate because I found that a lot of these aspects that the men in my life were hiding or not sharing with the world were connected to healthy masculinity and the types of values I wanted to see in the world. And so that's kind of the evolution of why I started the multicultural man. You know, these series of conversations showed me that I need to put a spotlight on these culturally diverse stories of healthy masculinity to really amplify Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]: It's so such an interesting And then ultimately, to widen our definition of what we see as masculine. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:26]: Every person has their own version of it in some different way, whether it's culturally based or socioeconomically based or other there's so many different factors that make a person who they are. And part of that is their understanding, their definition of what a man is. And a lot of times that comes out of, in my perspective, the men that they grow up with, the men that they see or they interact with, and they start to emulate those individuals. Going back to your story, I guess I would love to unpack that a little bit because I'm sure that around you, when you said you were talking about the facial hair story for yourself when you were growing up and coming into that facial hair when no one else in your peer group was, but the men around you did. So you saw these 2 worlds colliding for yourself. And you said it took a a number of years for you to get to a point where you accepted that. What did you have to do for yourself to come to that acceptance and be able to live an authentic life for yourself? Suraj Arshanapally [00:07:40]: I think at the time, I didn't accept myself. I just didn't know how to navigate having facial hair amongst a lot of people. A lot of the the boys my age didn't have facial hair. The men in my life did, but that seemed like a very different age group. You know? And I remember when I was a child, one term that I was called was man child because the boys around me didn't know how to they they saw the men in their lives with facial hair or older siblings, and then they also saw me. And so that was it was confusing at the time, and it took me a while to figure out how to appreciate facial hair. I think it was the conversations that I've been having with men around culture and masculinity. So one conversation that comes to mind is a conversation I had with with this man named JJ. Suraj Arshanapally [00:08:27]: And JJ, his religious identity is sick. And in Sikhism, facial hair is honored and respected. And he was telling me how it was so important for him to maintain his facial hair, as part of his religious identity and the cultural significance that comes with it. Through that conversation, I realized that facial hair is just a part of my experience. I'm Indian American, and my outward appearance is going to look different than others around me who aren't, who don't identify with that. And I really appreciated having that conversation with JJ because he was able to share his experience and put a spotlight on why it's something that's part of our identities that we should be able to achieve some of this services. It wasn't a dream of the military experience for yourself. As you said, you wanted to bring stories out into the open to explore healthy masculinity. Define for me healthy masculinity because every person is going to have a little bit different definition of that for themselves. Suraj Arshanapally [00:09:35]: Yeah. I'm glad you said that because this is this is something I think about quite often. So if we were to define masculinity as maybe a list of traits and behaviors that are typically associated with boys and men, or we define it as an energy for how you move through the world, regardless of how you define it. I would say a healthier form of masculinity is that form of masculinity that prioritizes your health, but also the health and well-being of your loved ones and your community at large. And so there are a couple ways that I've been thinking about this. And one way it evolved from the conversations that I've been having with men around their understanding of healthy masculinity. And that first way is about that list of traits. So for many years, a lot of these men had received messaging around what they can and can't do or how they can and can't behave. Suraj Arshanapally [00:10:28]: And so a lot of these messages, and I'm sure you've heard many of these, are that, you know, boys don't cry and don't be weak and boys are strong. And when you connect those with how it manifests that they need to prioritize self reliance in an unhealthy way. So if they feel like they need help, whether they're going through a mental health crisis or whether they're not feeling well physically. Whatever it may be, they may need to reach out for medical help, but they may see it as a sign of weakness, and they should just rely on themselves to get through it. And so these aspects or these messages around masculinity that many of us received when we were young weren't the best for our health because they didn't teach us how to prioritize our health. And so a lot of these men are doing are rejecting those messages by turning them into messages that they can live healthier lives. So that might mean that they express their emotions, or it might mean that they figure out ways to prioritize their mental and physical health, or they when they are in a conflict, they figure out how to navigate it peacefully, or they are active fathers in their children's lives. I resonate with this approach because I think it helps really prioritize health and well-being of oneself and the community. Suraj Arshanapally [00:11:52]: But another the the other approach that I wanna touch on is one that I started to think about more through the conversations I've been having with other men, and it's a little bit more of an introspective approach. And it requires one to think about their values and what values are important to them and also what values they want to see exemplified and embodied in society. So one example for me is I grew up in a Hindu household. And so in Hinduism, there is one value, how I move through the world using a peaceful approach. So when conflicts arise, I channel this value and I figure out a way to mediate them in a nonviolent peaceful way. And when I think about the values that are important to me, I share them with others. And Then through these conversations, I've learned about other values that are important to other men. Brian Anderson, who I recently had a conversation with for the multicultural man is a great example. Suraj Arshanapally [00:13:07]: I remember when Brian was speaking about his Catholic background and then his role as a father, he spoke about servant leadership being a really integral part of his being and the way he, you know, he moves through the world. And so when he, he spoke about when he thinks about the actions he takes, he for or what decisions he wants to make, he thinks about his children and the community and the impacts that it'll have on them. And that'll help him decide whether he wants to take those actions. And so I've learned a lot about the value systems that are connected to healthy masculinity as well. And and so that's a long answer, but it's the two approaches that I think about when I think about healthy masculinity. The rejection, the negative messages, but also about value system Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:52]: who is the cofounder of Gathering Together. And there's been others, other conversations that you've been collecting since 2023. What have you learned thus far? And what are you taking out of those conversations that are helping to frame your own masculinity? Suraj Arshanapally [00:14:15]: Yeah. So it's been really interesting because I have talked to several men across cultural traditions. And I actually I recently started documenting them in 2023, but I'd been having these conversations since around 2020. And it's been fascinating to learn about the ways that men are thinking about masculinity, or they haven't thought about masculinity and learn in the moment and how their experiences while so culturally diverse and pull from different cultural values and have different experiences, we're able to share a lot of similarities. And when I ask people what it means to be, to be a man that moves through the world in a healthy way, or like what healthy masculinity means. I get a lot of the same answers. It means to be a good person. It means to approach society in a peaceful way and to care about people to be empathetic, and those are values that I really resonate with as well. Suraj Arshanapally [00:15:18]: And so I think for me, something that I have learned from from these conversations is that I need to really do some more introspection on what is important to me. And when something feels off in terms of the socialization around masculinity, like, I feel nervous asking for help in this very particular situation, it's important for me to ask myself why and figure out what the connection to health, whether it's myself or society is. And I think that allows me to approach life in a healthier way. And so if anything, these conversations have taught me that I have a lot to learn. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:04]: Now not every dad, not every man is ready to unpack all of that for themselves. Sometimes it's going to take them some time to be able to have those internal dialogues or find someone that they're willing to talk to about these issues. From the conversations that you've had thus far and introspection that you've done yourself, are there things that men can and maybe should be doing to be able to start moving themselves in that, we'll say, right direction of being able to be introspective that can help them then to better understand themselves, which then allows them to understand themselves as fathers? Suraj Arshanapally [00:16:49]: Yeah. You know, it's a good question. And, you know, I'm not I'm not a father yet, but I thought about this because with this being a podcast centered around fatherhood, you know, what is the connection between healthy masculinity and fatherhood? And one trait that I think about when I think about healthy masculinity is active fatherhood and caregiving. And I believe that this value or aspect of healthy masculinity is really important for us as a society. When someone becomes a father, they don't abandon their value systems. If anything, it's even stronger because now you have little ones who are watching your every move, who are learning from you, and who you were teaching as a father. And so I think if the one piece of advice that I would give, or I would give myself, I should say, who hopes to be a father, is to really think about how I want to show up in the world, whether it's my day to day actions, whether it's how I handle challenges, you know, in the household, whether minor or large. And if it's something that I would want my kids to emulate, then I can keep moving forward. Suraj Arshanapally [00:18:01]: But if it's not, then I should probably figure out why I'm doing that and make some changes. And, and I think this is important because, so when I'm a father, I want my children to grow up in a society that values empathy, that values empathy and respect and health and peace. And I think it's important that if I want those values to show up in society, that I live out those values myself. And I'm not a father yet, so I can think about this prior, but I think anyone at any stage in their fatherhood journey can do some of this thought work and introspection there are more stories to tell and more stories to explore. What's the future of the multicultural man? Suraj Arshanapally [00:18:52]: So right now, I have been conducting interviews like we mentioned, and that has been really fruitful, and I've learned so much. And I document those on the website. And then I also have a newsletter where I reflect on values related to healthy masculinity, and I talk about lessons I've learned from other cultural traditions. And that that I and I really enjoyed that as well. What it feels like currently is that I am speaking to adults and it feels really healing to me, specifically my inner child to share these stories. But the future, I would say, of the multicultural man is to do more work with children and really make an impact on the lives of children because I would love for these stories to help widen our definitions of what masculinity is. Ultimately, I see I would want the messaging around masculinity to allow kids to live their lives as authentically as possible from the beginning of their life to adulthood and to feel free to be and do whatever they want and to not feel limited by any identity or ability due to the messaging or the social expectations around masculinity. And while I don't know what entirely that looks like in practice for the multicultural man yet. Suraj Arshanapally [00:20:16]: That's the direction I would love to head. But for right now, I'm finding a lot of value talking to other adults about their experiences around masculinity from different cultural traditions, but also doing a lot of introspection myself and sharing those thoughts through the newsletter. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]: The to think about things, on a deeper level earlier and break down some of those stereotypes and explore the some of the norms and values of society. But I guess one of the things that I would ask is that there are many fathers that also have sons. And as they are raising their sons, are there things that they could be doing, should be doing to be able to encourage these type of introspections, these type of conversations to help them to find that healthy manhood for themselves that they can start at an earlier age. Suraj Arshanapally [00:21:19]: I think some of the things that we can do is, from a very young age, introduce diversity of people, whether it's through children's book or, you know, children's television or through the stories we share with children. We want them to see the world for what it is, you know, a very culturally diverse space, where people look and identify in all different ways. And that can help from a young age, increase their empathy and towards other people and increase awareness. So that's one thing that I think fathers can do for sons, daughters, for any children. Another thing that comes to mind is, and I'll share a story. So when I was around 4th grade, I remember we had gone on a class field trip and it was to a library. And I was flipping through a book and I remember overhearing some of the adults talking and the adults were talking about our reading scores and reading speeds. And they had mentioned one of my classmates who was a girl. Suraj Arshanapally [00:22:17]: Her reading speed was on par for what it was supposed to be for our grade. And then I had overheard them talk about mine and mine was lower. But they justified it by saying boys learn slower. And so I remember hearing that message. And, you know, I was young at the time. I didn't have the tools or the ability to contextualize what that meant, but that message stuck with me throughout my whole school experience, the shortcut or the easy way out. And I think it the shortcut or the easy way out. And I think it was unfortunate because as an adult, I now read and I do that voluntarily. Suraj Arshanapally [00:22:57]: And I think about all the years I missed out because I didn't feel confident around reading because I thought, am I destined to just be slower at this? And that message made me feel like my reading speed was a metric I needed to use to measure my success or my, yeah, my confidence. But but it wasn't something I really needed to be measuring at all. I just needed to enjoy reading. And so the reason I'm sharing this story is because I think the messages we share with children, while inadvertently could be harmful, but, you know, obviously weren't intended that way is that messages stick with children. They pick up on what we're saying. And so we want to make sure we are using language that empowers them because at the time we may say something, but they're not gonna be able to contextualize what it actually means. And we want to ensure that they feel they feel confident in their skin and their ability to be and do whatever they want is validated and encouraged. And so I would say between these two things, sharing culturally diverse stories with children from a young age, and also being very intentional around the messaging that we use when we speak with children or speak about children because if they're listening are a couple of things that we can do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:17]: Well, Suraj, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing to encourage men to explore healthy masculinity in a different way, to share their stories. And if people wanna find out more about the multicultural man, sign up for the newsletter, learn about the stories that are being captured. Where should they go? Suraj Arshanapally [00:24:36]: So you can go to the multiculturalman.com, and you'll find all the information there. Or you can go to the multiculturalman.substack.com for the Substack newsletter. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:47]: Well, again, Suraj, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing. I look forward to seeing all the stories that come in the future, and I wish you all the best. Suraj Arshanapally [00:24:55]: Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris. And I just I just wanted to add real quick that I had listened to a previous episode of the podcast and it was the one with Sean Harvey. And I really appreciated it because you had both talked about the importance of people checking in. And I love that how it connected to healthy masculinity, because I think oftentimes when we talk about just being a man in general, but also as fathers, it's seen as a sign of weakness to ask for help and to be in community with others to want that social interaction. Isolating experience without that community. And so I just wanted to thank you for all the isolating experience without that community. And so I just wanted to thank you for all the work that you're doing around fathering together and building community for fathers. Suraj Arshanapally [00:25:45]: So it inspires me because when I'm a father one day, it's just nice to know that you've built this community that is welcoming and open for everyone to join. And I'm excited for it. So I just wanted to say thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:59]: Well, I do appreciate it. And I've said this before, and I'll say it again for any father that's out there, any man that's out there that it is so important to be open to be I'm gonna use it again, the v word vulnerable. It's important to be vulnerable and to know that, as I said at the beginning, you don't have to do this alone. And there are so many men around you that may be struggling with the same things that you're struggling with as a father, as a man. And so often, we bottle it up and think we just have to push through, and you don't have to. You can ask for help. You can talk to someone. Put yourself out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:36]: Maybe hard at first, but once you rip off that Band Aid, it becomes easier. So, Suraj, thank you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. And as I said, I do wish you all the best in the journey to come. Suraj Arshanapally [00:26:47]: Thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:48]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dotorg. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:37]: We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat. And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

Fatherhood is a deeply personal and transformative journey that challenges individuals in unexpected ways. In the podcast episode of Dads with Daughters, guest Rob Rohde shares his profound experiences as a single father to five daughters, shedding light on the complexities and rewards of parenting. Through his candid reflections and discussions with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Rob's story unveils the evolution of his role as a father, from initial fears and struggles to moments of growth and resilience. Embracing Vulnerability: Rob Rohde's admission of neglecting self-care early on as a single father resonates with many parents who prioritize their children's well-being above their own. By falling into the trap of self-sacrifice, Rob recognized the detrimental impact it had on his mental and emotional health. Through support from his family and other men, Rob acknowledged the importance of self-care and the necessity of addressing his own needs while being a pillar of strength for his daughters. Facing Challenges and Self-Reflection: The journey of fatherhood is not without its challenges, as Rob Rohde discovered through personal struggles and moments of feeling lost. His realization of the fractured relationships with his older daughters prompted introspection and personal growth. By asking himself tough questions about his parenting and taking responsibility for his role in the family dynamics, Rob embarked on a path of self-discovery and improvement. Supporting Through Loss and Trauma: The loss of the girls' mother posed a significant emotional hurdle for Rob and his daughters, highlighting the importance of navigating grief and supporting each child's unique needs. Rob's account of being asked to identify his late wife's body by the sheriff's department illuminates the profound depth of his challenges. Despite the traumatic event, Rob's unwavering dedication to his daughters' well-being and his commitment to open communication and support illustrate the resilience of the human spirit in times of adversity. Lessons in Connection and Bonding: Rob Rohde's emphasis on understanding nonverbal cues and fostering meaningful connections with his daughters underscores the power of effective communication and emotional intelligence in parenting. By prioritizing quality time and creating a safe environment for his children, Rob cultivates strong bonds built on trust and understanding. Empowering Other Fathers: Rob's journey as a single father inspired him to become a coach for other dads facing similar struggles, providing personalized support and guidance. By acknowledging the common challenges and complexities of single fatherhood, Rob aims to customize his coaching approach to address individual needs and empower men on their parenting journey. In the realm of fatherhood, each experience is a unique tapestry of growth, challenges, and triumphs. Rob Rohde's narrative exemplifies the transformative power of self-reflection, vulnerability, and unwavering support in navigating the complexities of parenting. As fathers embrace their roles with openness and authenticity, they pave the way for meaningful connections and enduring bonds with their children. By sharing his story and insights, Rob Rohde inspires a community of fathers to embrace their journey with grace, resilience, and an unwavering commitment to supporting their daughters through every twist and turn of life's tapestry. Through vulnerability and self-discovery, fathers can truly become the anchors of love and support that their children need to thrive and blossom.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week and every week I love it. I'm being able to just be here to be part of this journey that you're on. And you're a part of my journey too. I have to tell you about my kids, and I love hearing about the journeys that you're on as well. And I appreciate so much that you come back every week and are able to learn and grow with all of the dads and all of the people that we have on the show. It has been an amazing ride over these last few years as we have had so many amazing guests that have shared their own journey, shared resources and more to help you be that dad that you wanna be for your daughters. And that's important because none of us have all the answers. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]: None of us have to do this alone. And it's important to be able to reach out to learn to be able to be a little vulnerable. Yes. I said that word vulnerability. Yes. Being a little vulnerable and knowing that you don't have to do this alone and that you can reach out. You can learn about other ways of doing things and incorporate things into your own parenting journey that makes sense. Not everything you're gonna hear on every show is gonna make sense for you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: I get that. And what's most important is that you're here, you come back, you listen every week, and you're willing to learn. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Rob Rode is with us. And Rob is a single dad of 5 daughters. Yes, I said 5 daughters. And and I said single dad. So we're gonna be talking about that as well and the journey that he has been on with his own daughters. I'm really excited to have him on and to have him share some of the journey that he's had. Rob, thanks so much for being here today. Rob Rohde [00:02:10]: Hi, Chris. I am happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you've got 5 daughters and your oldest daughters are in their twenties. So adults now, but I wanna go all the way back because I know your oldest are twins. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: Let's go all the way back to that first moment. That first moment when you found out that you're going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head? Rob Rohde [00:02:35]: Wow. Well, my story is actually a little bit different in that my oldest daughters were already born when I met them. So I started dating their mom when they were about 2 years old. And so I, you know, I knew at the time that I started seeing their mom that she had daughters and she had twin daughters. And so if I was gonna make a decision to continue in that relationship and to, go down that path, I I knew that being a father was part of it. And so there wasn't this single moment in time where I realized, oh, you're gonna be a dad to daughters. It was more of a kind of a a slow journey. But I will say this, one of the more kind of unique and exciting things that I get to tell my oldest 2 daughters is that I got to choose to be their dad. Rob Rohde [00:03:22]: I got to choose them specifically. And that's something that's kind of unique and kind of exciting. And so the story is, is that after their mom and I got married, their father, biological father, was never in the picture. And so I wanted to start the process of trying to adopt them. And so after several years of going down that road, I did adopt them. And so, now they are not just mine in spirit, they are fully mine and will always be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:50]: I love that story and the journey that you're on. And and so one I guess one other question is that so you had a few years with just those 2, and then you ended up having your next daughters. And at that point, that had to have been a little bit more of a surprise because of the fact that that you didn't come into the relationship where those daughters were there. So talk to me about that reaction that you had when those next daughters came into your life. Rob Rohde [00:04:17]: It was definitely different, but I I have to tell you, I I was so excited. We did not with my 3rd daughter now, so the one the first one that you're talking about, we did not know whether or not she was going to be a girl or a boy. So that moment came in the delivery room when she was actually born. And so, you know, when I always wanted to have a large family, and I was excited about that. And I was excited for to already have the 2 older girls and now to be kind of starting a expanding that family further. And so the moment that I saw her, it was amazing. I mean, I think the thing that a lot of a lot of people don't tell you is just they talk about the fear, and they talk about the all the worries, and they talk about the stress. But they don't talk really about how you literally fall in love with this little child in a different way, but a similar way to how you you fall in love with a spouse. And that it but it happens so quickly for some of us. And in this situation, it happened almost right away from the moment I saw her. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: Now you just mentioned fear in a lot of dads that I talked to talk about that with having daughters, that there is some fear that went along with that. For you having 5 daughters. What's been your biggest fear in raising your daughters? Rob Rohde [00:05:37]: You know, initially, my biggest fear was just simply fear that I was going to screw them up. You know, I mean, that sounds so simple and so basic, but it was just fear that maybe I wasn't equipped to connect with them in the way that they needed or to or I wasn't patient enough or, you know, I didn't really have all the tools that I needed in order to to really take care of daughters and to to be that type of dad that they needed from me. But I will say that that fear changed significantly as they started to get older. And once I became a single father, that anxiety turned into just into a complete lack of knowing whether or not I had the ability to take care of them on my own, and a feeling of overwhelm and everything that goes along with that. But now that the kids are a little bit older, the anxiety that I face or the fear that I face is more around whether or not I did the work and did the things that I needed to do when they were younger to really build that foundation for them. And whether or not they you know, every dad is going to fear for the safety of their kids, and in particular, their daughters. I think that that's just always there. And there's only so much you can do to protect them as they grow and as they become older. Rob Rohde [00:06:57]: And, you know, your hope is that you have done the work early on so that now that they are in this stage of their life, that they have the tools that they need, they have that sense of self worth and security. They have the love for themselves and the the knowledge that they have value to offer the world. And, you know, you we really just want to raise daughters who are confident, secure, love themselves, and treat others well. And the fear is whether or not we've done our work early on in order to set them up to be successful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:28]: Now one of the things that you just talked about was that anxiety that you felt, especially as became a single father and the questioning of your own abilities to be able to manage things to to deal with things. I'm sure that during that process, you had to do some things for yourself to be able to manage that anxiety, to get past that anxiety, to be able to then be there for your daughters. Talk to me about that journey for yourself and what you had to do to get yourself in a place where you were able to get to that point of, I'm gonna say acceptance in some ways, but but how it's in getting to that point where you were okay with where you were, but then at the same time, where you were okay with where your daughters were and able to support them for what they needed? Rob Rohde [00:08:15]: Well, so if I'm being fully honest, I did not do a good job of taking care of myself early on. I fell into the trap that so many of us dads fall into, which is trying to be that rock of stability and trying to make sure that we're that pillar for our children. And we put all of our energy and all of our resources into making sure that they have what they need. And we almost do it, or I almost did it, almost like a badge of honor. Like, I'm gonna put my needs to the side and make sure that they have everything they need. I'm gonna always put them first. And I did that to my detriment. And I it took me time to realize that that was not helpful for them, and they were not getting the best version of me when I was trying to go that direction. Rob Rohde [00:08:59]: So the help that I did have, though, from the beginning is I did have a strong support group within my family. I had a group of of relatives, uncles, cousins, my father, other men who were in my corner and who kept me grounded and helped provide me with the confidence that I needed and kept me kind of going in that positive direction. Rob Rohde [00:09:19]: But there was also this period of time where I felt lost, and I felt like I was not doing what to do, and I was not taking care of myself. And when I first became a single father, I went into this trap of I was drinking single father, I went into this trap of, I was drinking too much, I wasn't sleeping well, I was not exercising, not eating healthy. I wasn't doing any of the things that I needed to do to take care of myself. And it really took those men that I, that I spoke about earlier kind of stepping into my life and saying, hey, Rob, you need to make a change, and you need to really take a look at the example you're setting for your daughters and kind of get out of this funk that you're in. And I will say that I did seek out help after that, and I I sought out help in the form of of counselors and mentors and other men, And I just leaned on people and started doing my own work. And I went through this period early on where I was just blaming everybody for everything. And I was blaming my ex wife for maybe saying derogatory things about me, and I was blaming my job for forcing me to work so much. And I was blaming my older daughters because I not appreciating everything I did because my relationship with them was fractured. Rob Rohde [00:10:30]: And we really had a a challenge early on. And so it took me a while to get out of that place of blame and start working on myself as opposed to just pointing the finger outward and pointing the finger at others. And to me, what was this turning point for me is I was listening to the words of a host on a leadership podcast who was talking about a situation where him as a leader fell short on his goals. And he had to report up to his boss, and his boss asked him this question. He asked him, how has your leadership contributed to this result? And I heard those words, and I immediately went to my older daughters. And I turned that back at me and asked myself, how has your parenting contributed to this result? How has your parenting led to these fractured relationships that you're currently in with your older daughters? And that was a moment that really just sunk in. Those were words that just sunk in and really entered into my mind. And I remember sitting alone when I heard this, when I was listening to this. Rob Rohde [00:11:35]: My kids were at their mom's house. I was alone in the house, up in my room, and I remember turning to the mirror and looking at myself and just being disgusted with the person that I had become, disgusted with this person who was blaming everybody else for everything and who was not taking responsibility for my own actions. And I knew I needed to make a change. And so I did. I told myself that I need to be doing things better moving forward. My daughters need a better version of me moving forward. And so to to answer your question, at that point, I became completely engrossed in learning everything I could possibly learn about leadership, parenting, raising daughters, raising sons, which I didn't even have. But just anything I could come up with that would help me be a better parent, a better leader for my family, and really kind of diving back into my own personal growth. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]: I appreciate you sharing that because I think that many dads can fall into that trap and fall into that situation where you, as you said, you blame yourself and you start spiraling down that and not every person is gonna be willing to admit that and to deal with it the way that you have. So I appreciate you sharing that and being willing to share that with everyone today. Now, as you were going through that, and going through your own process of being able to get to a better place to be able to then be there for your own daughters. As you go through that yourself, as you're raising your daughters, it's not always easy. There are definite hard points. What would you say has been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter? Rob Rohde [00:13:11]: I would say the hardest part is really recognizing the uniqueness in each individual. And that was especially hard for me starting off with twins who were already 2 years old when I met them, 4 years old when we got married, and 7 when the adoption finally went final. And I kind of had it in my head that, okay, I know how I wanna be a parent. And if I do things a certain way, then it's going to be effective. If I do it from a place of love, then I do it from a place of caring, then it'll be effective. But it really wasn't. The things that I was trying were not working. And you know, there's this uniqueness when you're raising twins, in that the primary person that they turn to for recognition, for support, and for a the person that they wanna please more than anyone else in the world is not their parents. Rob Rohde [00:14:07]: It's each other. And that's a unique dynamic that I didn't appreciate. And even as twins, they're quite different. And so, I will say the hardest thing for me was the recognizing that I needed to be a different parent to each of my children. Same level of accountability and the same level of responsibility for them, but a different person. The way that I connected with them had to be different. The way that I related with them had to be different. And the way that I showed them that I love them and I cared for them had to be different. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now you and I have had a conversation at the beginning of our talk today before we went live. And one of the things you shared with me was also a really hard story and something that you had to really work with your daughters on. And that was the loss of their mother or their for your daughters. Talk to me about that and what you had to do as a father to be able to support your daughters through that loss and help them to be resilient through that period. Because at that point, they would have been in their early twenties all the way down to 8. And as you said, you need to understand how you need what the needs are for each child. But the needs of that vast age range is gonna be very different in the loss of a parent. Rob Rohde [00:15:28]: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that was a difficult it's an understatement to say that that was a difficult time. I was working in healthcare at the time, and I was at work in the middle of the night. And the way that all this happened after there's a series of events that happened that led up to this, without going into all of those details, I received a phone call in the middle of the night on my shift at the hospital I was working at, and it was the sheriff's department, and they were asking me to help identify the body of the girl's mom. And even though there were a lot of challenges during that time, I was not expecting this. It was a huge shock. And in that moment, after I processed my own feelings, the quick version of processing my own feelings, I was sitting in this place where I felt like I am completely ill equipped to give my daughters what they need from me in this situation. And that was the worst day of my life really up to that point. Rob Rohde [00:16:24]: And as bad as it was for me, I knew that it was 10 times more difficult for my daughters. And that following morning, when I had to have that conversation with them and let them know what had happened, I mean, it was horrible. It was awful. And, you know, I did not know what they needed. I did not know how to support them. All I knew how to do was to share the information with them in a sensitive way and to hold them and be there for them and to let them try to process their feelings in that moment. And over time, we used all the resources that were available to us. And there were resources that the court helped provide us with, victim's advocate resources and counselors and things along those lines. Rob Rohde [00:17:08]: But as you said, each one of the children is different. And so I it's impossible for me to talk about this story and talk about this situation as if it's in past in the past because we are still dealing with this right now today. And I suspect that the girls in particular will be dealing with this for the rest their lives, at least on a certain level. For instance, my one of my daughters who is now 21 has spent years in counseling and has gone through a lot of work and done a lot of processing and really is in a really good place. But now that she's in a serious dating relationship, there are some aspects of this that are coming back up, and it's affecting her in ways that she didn't know, she didn't know enough to work through those feelings until they actually, till she was actually in this situation. And so it's an evolving process. And so the best thing that I felt that I was able to do is to just give the girls a space where they felt comfortable and safe sharing the feelings that they were having with me, and then listening to the emotions, listening to the words that they were saying, and providing them with the support out beyond myself when I was not able to give them everything they needed. I firmly believe that one of the best things that we can do as parents, one of the most effective things we can do as parents to truly connect and bond and have life changing meaningful relationships with our kids is to take the time to study them, to legitimately, thoroughly study them, to be able to learn their nonverbal cues, to be able to learn their body language, to be able to see the expressions and know when they're feeling anxiety, to know when they're feeling a sense of of fear or despair or any emotion. Rob Rohde [00:18:58]: And I think that we don't spend enough time doing that as parents. And the fact that I had a little bit of a foundation doing that, I think helped me in that situation, but I had doubled down on that and really tried to understand their nonverbal cues and to really get to to understand their feelings and where they were at. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:17]: I really appreciate you sharing all of that. And I can only imagine that it is ongoing and it will continue to be ongoing. And just being there, like you said, is so important to be able to help your daughters to process and work through this to be able to help them in so many ways. Now, all of these things, all these things that you've been talking about, the journey that you've been on as a single dad to be able to be the father that you wanna be for your girls has led you to becoming a coach, a coach for single fathers. And I guess I'd love to hear a little bit of that origin story and what led you down this path of wanting to coach other single fathers in the journey that they're on? Rob Rohde [00:20:00]: Yeah, thank you for asking. I'm gonna tell a little story that kind of leads into this. And I'm kind of telling this in reverse order because I kind of told a portion of it a few minutes ago. But, you know, there was a moment shortly after the girl's mom and I separated when I was in the car driving over to pick up my daughters for their parenting time with me. And I remember as I was driving over, thoughts were racing through my head because I was struggling a little bit in my relationship with my older girls. I was working a ton. I was I would lose my patience at times. They blamed me for the divorce. Rob Rohde [00:20:35]: They were upset at me, and the truth is they had a right to be. But I was really genuinely trying. And I remember as I pull into the driveway thinking, this time is going to be different. This time I'm going to be more patient. This time, I'm gonna put their needs before mine. This time, I'm gonna put away all my distractions and give them my undivided attention. And as these thoughts were racing through my head, I froze as my, as the girl's mom walked out to the car alone and told me that the girls, my oldest girls, were not coming over to see me. That they didn't want to spend time with me. Rob Rohde [00:21:13]: They were upset with me. And I felt like a complete failure. My own daughters did did not wanna spend time with me. And that's when I kind of went through this place of really feeling all of this blame, putting all this blame on everyone else. And until I until over time, I realized that a very, very simple truth, which is that I can only control my reaction to situations. I cannot control other people. And I know how basic that is. I know how simple that is. Rob Rohde [00:21:41]: But sometimes the most simple truths make the biggest differences in our lives. And that was when I really started just educating myself and learning everything I I could learn and really trying to put myself in that place. But I had these feelings of exhaustion and fear and anxiety and inadequacy, and feeling like a failure, and feeling like there was a lack of resources to support me when I was in that place in my journey. And I'm telling this because that, along with all of my experiences that I've had, have led me to this place where I decided that I really wanted to provide the support and guidance to other men who are in the situation that I was in, but really the support and guidance that I didn't have, that I wish that I had had because it would have changed my journey, and it would have sped up my recovery with my daughters, and it would have sped up my growth, and it would have just made all the difference in the world. I didn't have that. I think that there is a lack of resources out there for single fathers in particular, and I wanted to step into that place based on my experience and my knowledge. And so I went and I got my degree, and I I got my master's degree in leadership, and I've taken coaching courses, and I've done everything I could to prepare myself. But I also have this breadth of experience that is unique, that not a lot of people have. Rob Rohde [00:23:07]: And so that is what went on inside my heart that led me to this place. And then what went on inside my mind and with my actions is is really that play wanting to step into that gap that existed so that I could help support other men. I mean, you've talked about this often on your podcast, which is that we do better when we link arms with other men. We are not meant to do this alone. We need accountability. We need mentorship. We need partnerships. And, you know, I could not agree with you more. Rob Rohde [00:23:38]: And that is a big piece of what I what I'm trying to provide. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:42]: So you've opened yourself up to being that coach, that person that helped to other dads, as you've been going through that or yourself as you've been working with different dads, what are you learning? Oh, wow. I Rob Rohde [00:24:00]: Oh, wow. I am learning so very much with every conversation I have. I, some of the things that I have learned is how common some of these struggles are. And also, the similarities that exist regardless of age, regardless of age of the children, regardless of socioeconomic background, we all have a lot of the same fears and we all have a lot of the same desires. I think that my goal is to really meet people where they are at on their journey. I do have a step by step process that I take Minh through, but it is 100% customizable. And so the process is about the steps that we will take, but the ability for it to be customized is starting out by really understanding what it is that that individual man father wants out of this journey. What is his end goal? What is his desire? And really starting out with just trying to help that individual figure out what it is they want, and then we can customize that process to get there. Rob Rohde [00:25:10]: And some of the, you know, one of the first things that I do is we just walk through and see what is going on in their life that needs to be addressed right away. You know, we all have when we are in the middle of a chaotic situation, when there are fires going on in all aspects of our life, we're not in a position to really move forward and grow and learn. We need to set up some boundaries and set up our life so that we can optimize our ability to learn. And so we start by just identifying what is a single biggest issue that is holding you back right now and what are the steps we can take to address that issue. And that's the starting point. And then we go all the way through the process of talking about goals and vision and values and balance. But also, we don't lose sight of the fact that all men, in my opinion, have three things that they need in order to feel happy and successful. And those three things are deep meaningful connections, the pursuit of meaningful things, so meaningful pursuits or endeavors, and then they all need to feel alive. Rob Rohde [00:26:23]: They need something that allows them to feel, to get excited in the morning when they wake up. And so we always, everything that we do, we keep that in mind. What are you doing to feel alive? How are your relationships? How are your connections right now with your kids or your family or whatever is important to you? And what are you pursuing that is truly meaningful, that you're proud of? And so that's kind of the underlying theme that oversees everything that we do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:51]: So you've developed this core framework, you're working with dads, you're helping to walk these dads through this journey. What's next for you in this progression of the work that you're doing? Rob Rohde [00:27:04]: You know, the next piece that I really want to step into is the community piece. And so, I really wanna move beyond the 1 on 1 coaching and move towards more of setting up the community. And so there are 2 ways that I am looking at doing that. And one of them is through group coaching with a, potentially with a digital course as a piece of that that goes along with that. But I really want to move into the community space because I feel like that is what we need as men more than anything. That is where we will see like exponential growth and the sustainability of the changes that are made is when we have a community that is joining us in the journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:51]: Now, I always like to finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Rob Rohde [00:27:58]: I am. Let's do it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:59]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Rob Rohde [00:28:02]: Responsibility. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:03]: Now, when was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Rob Rohde [00:28:07]: So I believe strongly in family culture and I believe strongly in establishing an environment where your values and meaning is all kind of comes together and into your culture as a family. And so one moment for me was shortly after, really not that long ago, a few months ago, I was leaving my 9 to 5 job and moving into this space full time. And after I came home, after my last day of work, I came home and there was basically, like, surprise celebration for me by my kids. And, you know, along with comments such as, dad, what can we do to kinda help you out so that you can have more time to be focusing on this, so that you can have more time for your clients, so you can have more time to do this. And the reason why that was a moment of success for me as a father, my kids were teaching me a lesson. My kids were showing me what it means to have a family culture of support and unconditional love and being there for each other and prioritizing family. And especially at the age that my kids are, for them to take the time to do that meant a lot. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:16]: Now, if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad? Rob Rohde [00:29:22]: Well, I mean, if you got them in a good moment versus in a tough moment, I think that they would describe me across the board as as being loving and being supportive, but also having high expectations and standards, especially in terms of how we treat other people and the values we possess and pursuing meaningful things in our life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:48]: And who inspires you to be a better dad? Rob Rohde [00:29:50]: The man in the mirror, to be honest with you. When I look at myself in the mirror and I I ask myself at one point, what kind of man do you wanna be? What kind of father do you wanna be? I wanna be able to look back. My goal is to be able to look back at that man each day and be proud of that person that I am, be proud of that father. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:11]: You've given a lot of piece of advice, a lot of pieces of your own story that can help other dads to define a bit more of their own story. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad? Rob Rohde [00:30:23]: So one piece of advice I'd like to give. Most people are going to tell you that the most important thing is to spend quality time with your kids. And I'm here to say that the most important thing we can do as fathers is to set aside a large quantity of time for our kids. That is what our kids need from us. Our kids need us to be present. It's in those moments when we are present and our kids feel safe and secure that quality moments happen. It's in those moments when we're just there, sitting there reading a book, but we are simply present, that they are comfortable coming to us and sharing with us the important things going on in their lives, their relationship issues that they're having, their friendships, their hopes, their dreams, their desires. We can't create a quality moment, but we can create a safe environment and be present as often as possible so that those quality moments can happen naturally. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:26]: Well, Rob, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go? Rob Rohde [00:31:34]: Yeah. The probably the best place to find out more about me is to check out my podcast, which is called The Business of Being Dad. And I release a new episode every Tuesday. You can find it on all the streaming platforms. And within the show description, there are links to my website, to my email, and also to a free resource called Thrive as a Single Dad that I would love to share with anyone who is interested. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:02]: Well, Rob, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey and your continuing journey with your 5 daughters. And I truly wish you all the best. Rob Rohde [00:32:12]: Thank you so much. It's been an honor. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:13]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

In the realm of parenting, fathers play a pivotal role in shaping their children's lives, especially daughters. The journey of fatherhood is complex, filled with joys, challenges, and continuous learning experiences. In the Dads with Daughters podcast episode featuring Joe Bovell, a father of two, a profound discussion unfolded regarding the evolving dynamics of raising daughters. Let's delve into the insightful dialogue and extract key takeaways on navigating the path of fatherhood. Embracing the Journey of Parenthood Joe Bovell's narrative sheds light on the profound transformation that occurs when one becomes a father. The initial emotions of surprise and delight upon discovering the gender of his children set the stage for a journey filled with expectations, fears, and aspirations. Embracing fatherhood as a collaborative effort with his wife, Joe highlights the importance of being present and actively engaging in his children's lives from the moment they enter the world. Navigating Fears and Challenges As daughters transition through different stages of life, fathers like Joe Bovell acknowledge the evolving fears and challenges that come with the territory. From the desire to protect their daughters in their early years to confronting the societal pressures and influences as they grow older, the complexities of fatherhood magnify over time. Joe's exploration of the generational differences and the impact of social media on his daughter's growth provides a poignant reflection on the constant adaptation required in modern-day parenting. Balancing Work, Life, and Parenting An integral aspect of Joe's journey as a father is balancing his professional commitments with his role as a parent. As the CEO of Eco Growth International, Joe emphasizes the significance of quality over quantity when it comes to spending time with his family. Striving to be an engaged and supportive father amidst a busy schedule, Joe's approach reflects the ongoing quest for balance and prioritization in the realm of work-life integration. Drawing Inspiration from Personal Challenges Joe Bovell's upbringing in poverty and adversity serves as a foundation for his parenting philosophy. The resilience and work ethic instilled by his life experiences shape his perspectives on fatherhood and drive him to provide a safe and secure environment for his children. Joe's reflection on the absence of a father figure in his life underscores the profound impact of personal adversities in shaping one's values and aspirations as a parent. Continuous Growth and Reflection One of the most profound insights shared by Joe Bovell is the importance of continuous growth and reflection as a father. Acknowledging the feedback from his children, embracing the changing dynamics as they transition into adulthood, and navigating the fine line between guidance and autonomy, Joe exemplifies the essence of evolving as a parent. The journey of fatherhood is marked by learning on the job, adapting to new challenges, and striving to be the best version of oneself for the sake of one's children. In essence, Joe Bovell's journey as a father provides a poignant narrative on the highs, lows, and intricate nuances of raising daughters. His reflections on fears, challenges, and the continuous strive for improvement paint a vivid picture of the multifaceted nature of fatherhood. As fathers navigate the complexities of parenting, Joe's insights serve as a guiding light, emphasizing the importance of presence, resilience, and a constant commitment to being the best dad one can be in shaping the lives of their daughters. Joe Bovell was a part of Sarah Maconachie's book of stories about fathers called Working Dads and Balancing Acts.  TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you to be able to be on this journey with you. Because I know it is a journey. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I know you've got daughters, and you are going through this journey just like I am. You may have really young daughters, you could have teenage daughters, you could have grown and flown daughters, but we're all on a journey to help our daughters to be able to be those women, those strong, independent women that I already mentioned, but that we want them to be in life. And that's why the show exists. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: It exists because I want to help you along this path. I am not an expert, but it is important to be able to walk together in this journey, because we can always learn and grow and be better as fathers. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads, different people, people with resources, people with different experiences and and on different journeys that can help you to see your own journey of fatherhood in a little bit different way. And by hearing these experiences, my hope is that you're adding some tools to that toolbox that you're carrying with you. And that that will help you in the journey that you're on. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Joe Bovell is with us today. And Joe is a father of 2. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: He's got a son. He's got a daughter. And we're gonna be talking about the journey that he has been on as a father himself. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him today. Joe, thanks so much for being here today. Joe Bovell [00:02:07]: Welcome, Chris. Thank you. I'm looking forward to this. Well, I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: really excited to have you here today. And I always start the interviews with an opportunity to kinda go back in time. We're gonna turn the clock back a little bit. And I said, you have a son, you have a daughter, and we're gonna focus on your daughter today. But I want you to go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head? Joe Bovell [00:02:27]: Well, I found out as she was born. So it seems to be a bit against the norm now where a lot of people wanna know the sex of their child before well before they're born. We took the decision with both our children to not do that. So so that was a great surprise, and I'm glad we did that. So our son was born first as you touched on. So it was great when I found out I had a daughter because that was the pigeon pear. That was fantastic to have that moment where we said, okay. Let's let's work out. Joe Bovell [00:02:53]: You know, we're being blessed. We've had, a boy and a girl. We had a lot of difficulties through both pregnancies. My wife did, not me, of course. But and she had morning sickness for every single day of each pregnancy up until the day including the day they were born. So we were only ever gonna have 2 children. So the fact that Stephanie was born was, yeah, it was a great delight. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:13]: Now, you know, I talked to a lot of dads, that have daughters, and a lot of the dads talk about that there is fear that goes along with raising daughters. Now, you had a son first, then you had your daughter. Talk to me about what was your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Joe Bovell [00:03:29]: I think those fears have evolved as she's gotten older. There's certainly the protective mood kicks in in those early years and and her development. But I'd say in the last 5 years, the pressures of social media, expectations of society to act and look in a particular way, that's certainly my greatest fears right now because I can see how it's influencing her how it influences her friend network, and how they communicate with each other is just so different. And I think one of my fears was the generational difference in how I grew up versus how she's growing up, and it is so different. And as a parent, you're trying to manage that sit a situation that you really have little control over. So I think the early stages because we had an established family and have a son first, there weren't as many fears. But I think now that she's interacting with the wider world, the fear has heightened, particularly in the last 5 years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:25]: So as you talk about the fear being heightened, what is that fear now? Joe Bovell [00:04:29]: It's quite significant, particularly because I think as she's getting older and developing and growing into being a woman, I can see the pressures, societal pressures coming on to her to look a certain way, to act a certain way, to like a certain musician, to be accepted in the group. And how her friends and schoolmates actually interact with each other, and how we can escalate so quickly. So if one person doesn't get invited to a party and that person finds out about it, it sets off this chain of events that really, as I say, escalates into something that gets out of control pretty quickly. And I can see the pressure bearing on her, and then that obviously affects me as a father because you have little to no control over it. And I think it's that I can see that building as she's getting older, and that might change or tap out when she gets to 18 or 19. But at the moment, as a 15 year old, to me, it appears to be at its highest. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:22]: Now there are definitely highs and lows to fatherhood and parenting. There are good times. There's challenging times. Talk to me about what's been the hardest part about being a father to a daughter? Joe Bovell [00:05:35]: It's a really good question because I think there's so many layers. But maybe my first reaction is, in a lot of ways, my daughter has a really close relationship with her mom, and I think that's that's vitally important and not as close to to me. So you have to reconcile that that she is gonna do some more things with her mom because the girl thinks, and they're gonna enjoy that exploration together. And maybe a lot of the interest I have don't sort of resonate with her. So I think it's accepting that you have a particular role to play in your daughter's life, and I might necessarily be the friend or the mate that say mom is. It's more the mentor and that type of role. So relationship shifting from that really close bond to we're still close, but it's not not as close as what it was perhaps 5 years ago. Because she's developing and emerging and and forming her own opinions on life. Joe Bovell [00:06:25]: Right? So I think that's probably the greatest challenge. There's others, of course, but I think that's probably the greatest for me personally as a dad and how I manage that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:33]: I know you're a busy guy. You are the CEO and Managing Director at Eco Growth International. And that alone is a very busy job. And then you have your family, you have your other responsibilities, you're balancing a lot of different things, wearing a lot of hats. So talk to me about balance and what you do to be able to be that engaged dad that you wanna be. Joe Bovell [00:06:55]: Yeah. I think it's about making the most of the time that you have together and having quality rather than quantity. And, look, they've grown up. Steph's grown up with me in this role, you know, half her life. So she's accustomed to me traveling or doing longer working hours or whatever that might be. So that's the norm. I mean, it's pretty normal now when I can go on a trip and she comments and perhaps did I even go away. So and that's not that she didn't miss me, but she's just so used to me not being there. Joe Bovell [00:07:23]: And I think and that's like, I spoke on her in your earlier question about the bond with her mom is closer because she spends more time with her. So it's a really difficult balance, and I I do I wouldn't say I have an issue with it, but I would challenge the notion of work life balance. I don't I don't think there is. Trying to get that balance, I think, is incredibly difficult. And if you can do that, then I'll take my hat off to you. But I've always gone with the moments that really matter, I want to be there. So be that a school assembly or an award or a presentation or a sporting event, to me, that's vital that I'm there, and work absolutely comes second in those occasions. Work is not everything. Joe Bovell [00:08:04]: So that's where I try and make that balanced choice. It's go okay. It I don't know. It sounds like prioritization, but it's actually saying what are the moments that really matter and and being engaged in those moments as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:21]: Now you and I were connected through Sarah McConachie, who you wrote a piece of her new book in working dads and balancing acts. And in that book, you you talk about the fact that your childhood wasn't the easiest. You had a single mom, you you grew up in poverty and adversity. And that helped as you write in your in your, piece, that it really shaped a sense of resilience in you and a work ethic that remains with you today. And in that you talk about the absence of a father figure in your life. So talk to me a little bit about that absence, and how you push through that when you became a father, to be able to define fatherhood for yourself and to be the father that you wanted to be? Joe Bovell [00:09:19]: That was certainly my greatest fear, when we found out my wife was pregnant, was what kind of father would I be? Because I had no I had no benchmark. So I I never met my father at all, so there was no relationship whatsoever. I didn't have any male mentors in my life growing up either. Obviously, I was very close to my mother. But I didn't have that I didn't have anything shaping me in terms of being a father. So when my, son was born, I hadn't even held a baby. And when I had friends who had babies, I'd always avoided it because I always felt I was gonna break them if I held them. But, but now yeah. Joe Bovell [00:10:09]: So moving through that journey, I think you you come back to your own principles of doing what you feel is right. You know that you're gonna make mistakes. I've made I think I've made a lot of mistakes, in my in being a father. And would that have been different if I'd had a father figure in my life growing up? I'm not sure. I always took the position that I was fortunate in not having a father. And the reason I say that because, you know, how many children have, you know, parents who go through divorce or they have a a household that's not safe? And so just because you have a father doesn't necessarily mean it's great. So that was my one of my coping mechanisms, I guess. So I don't know how I became a father. Joe Bovell [00:11:02]: I just it just it was a lot by accident, and I learned on the job. And I think what what I touched on in the chapter was that I just felt that what I've gone through in my life, I did not want to have that repeated. So that was my guiding light in being a father. And like I said, I'm not perfect, and I do certainly things I do differently. But I think, overall, that was the the guide for me to be the father that I am. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:38]: Now I mentioned the fact that in what you wrote, you also talked about growing up in poverty and adversity. How did that shape your perspectives on life and on fatherhood? Joe Bovell [00:11:53]: On the on the life front, it it it shaped pretty quickly that if you wanted something, you had to go and, work for it. You had to you had to earn it. There was no nothing was gifted, and that you had the choice. So you came to a fork in the road that you could go the right way or the wrong way, or you could choose to stay in poverty, you could choose to be uneducated or not be a nice person, or you can actually choose to be the other way. So go the other way. So and we spoke earlier. My career path and life path hasn't certainly been linear, but it's always been guided by a drive that you can't implant into many people, and my kids don't have it. And I think that's really interesting because I've tried to help build resilience with them. Joe Bovell [00:12:43]: So it's difficult if you don't suffer adversity to build resilience. They sort of go hand in hand. So that's only shaped everything, and I started work part time when I was 10 years old, which seems pretty foreign there. Back in the early eighties, that wasn't so uncommon. But we because we had no money or, opportunity and you had friends who were doing things that you couldn't do because you couldn't afford them, you didn't have a choice. Do we go and sell newspapers and be able to be part of that or not? And I haven't been out of work since. So and it probably annoys my kids because in some ways, I have an imposter syndrome. Well, I think I do have an imposter syndrome, not in some ways. Joe Bovell [00:13:20]: And there's a fear of losing what you have, and I'm not sure that'll ever leave me. So I could be a multimillionaire, and I still might feel that it could all be taken away from me tomorrow. So that's good and bad. That certainly goes a great driver, but what it can affect is your ability to enjoy the moment. And I think that's been probably the feedback from my daughter particularly that I'm not enjoying the moment. I'm always thinking a couple of years ahead or I'm thinking about protecting what we have and not enjoying it as much as what we can. As I get older, starting to, loosen up on that a little bit. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]: Now you mentioned the fact that as you were growing up, you didn't have a father figure. There were no father figures in your life. You were close to your mother, but you had that lack of a father figure. And as you walked into fatherhood, as you mentioned, hadn't held the baby, you thought you were gonna break the baby. You know, you had a lot to learn and that you kind of figured out what being a father was. Who or what did you turn to to be able to model after without having that father figure in your life to be that father that you wanted to be? Joe Bovell [00:14:29]: I have to say it's my wife. So we had the same commitment to raising a family in a particular way, so we're on the same page. So even at that point, I still didn't have a male mentor. And as you well know, men aren't particularly good at talking to each other or being open in their communication. So dads don't sit around in father's groups like moms do in mother's groups and share their experiences and share helpful advice. Dads almost said it's a badge of honor to not ask for advice, which is not necessarily a good thing. Back in my generation, at least, I think it's improving, and I think there's more content education available to young fathers. So I've had to say my wife because we had a a firm commitment to raising our children in a certain way, and that was the way we wanted to do it. Joe Bovell [00:15:15]: So no. I didn't actually still at that point have a male influence on my life other than what I read or digested online. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:23]: Now you mentioned that in what you wrote that one of the things that you really wanted to do was provide a safe and secure upbringing for your kids, free from the struggles that you faced. So talk to me about how you balanced protecting them while also allowing them to learn and grow from the challenges that they would face as they grew up. Joe Bovell [00:15:45]: The provision of the safe family unit again, I've gotta give my wife credit for that as well. I I can't claim all of that. I think a lot of that happened in the background and that they weren't necessarily aware of that, and perhaps they got given too much. That's probably one of the other struggles I have. And that is there an overcorrection in providing far too much when, say, you missed out on it and then you wanna make up for that to some degree. So which again is good and bad. It's great to have to been able to have done that for them, but there's also comes an expectation and entitlement, which I don't think is fabulous for helping them in that sense. So and my wife has always spoken about that. Joe Bovell [00:16:22]: We probably should've peeled that back a little bit. So we achieved what we wanted to do in providing that safe family home, but did we overcorrect and not build resilience and build in a modicum of entitlement and that things might come a little bit too easy. And that's the really difficult part. I think that's been the hardest part for me in parenting. It's been that balancing between giving enough or too much or not enough. And I think sometimes you don't know that till you get to the end, until they get to 18 or 20. You might get little hints along the way, but you might not actually see, say, a sense of entitlement or lack of resilience until they're 16. And is that too late? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:01]: Now all of us are not perfect, and we have to learn and grow and become better as we move through fatherhood. What would you say have been some of the strategies that you employed to continuously improve as a dad? And how do you handle setbacks or moments when you feel like you've fallen short? Joe Bovell [00:17:21]: I think the feedback from the kids is probably the greatest tool, which is an interesting one because as they're developing and forming their own opinions and and they become more vocal in that, you're realizing what your impact has been as a parent. Doesn't mean they're always right though, I gotta say, because their opinions and learnings are based on what they know at that point in time, and they might not be privy to the background information. So I remember reading somewhere or heard somewhere not that long ago that someone said that, you know, how to become a great parent of an 18 year old. And they said, well, I'm not bad, but I don't know how to be the parent of a 19 year old. Because it was the first time they had evolved. And I think that's the learning on the job that I've mentioned earlier that being a dad to a 6 year old is so different to a 15 year old. As we know, it is just radically different. You go from helping them grow and be a a person. Joe Bovell [00:18:12]: They can start to look after themselves and and teach them the basics of life and to then someone who's then forming really strong opinions on the world and they're forming their own character. And there's inevitable clashes with that, clashes in our deals and philosophies. That's been a challenge. So I think the thing I've learned is that you go from protector and teacher, you need to then become more of a listener than a doer and be more there if they need you rather than being there a 100% of the time. And that's taking me a fair bit of brain power to wrap my head around that because, again, that's probably the biggest challenges of being dead, Particularly for me was you go from the protected provider to actually, we don't need you to do that anymore, dad. Actually, why don't you back off a bit? Because you're actually you've been a security guard all this time. We don't need that. We're finding our own way in the world. Joe Bovell [00:19:02]: We need you to be there if we need you. So you can feel a bit redundant, but I'll look at that too and say, yeah. But that's part of our job, isn't it? That we're preparing our children for adulthood. And if they should, in some ways, be disconnecting from us, cutting the umbilical cord to a degree, but hope that they come back when they need to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:20]: Now you've kind of talked about this in trying to raise your kids to be prepared for the future. And I know in what you wrote, you talked about wanting your kids to be successful, happy, well balanced. How do you instill those values and aspirations in them while also allowing them to pursue their own paths? Joe Bovell [00:19:39]: Actions speak louder than words, and I think you need to demonstrate that consistently that you have those values as a person, that you can work and have all these other interests, but you can still dedicate time to your family and be there for when you need them. But balancing that against, and which I touched on earlier, I think that's been the challenge for me. You go, jeez. I'd love it if you guys turned out this way, but the reality is you can maybe try and influence it a little bit, but they're gonna form their own values and opinions and style. So I think the only really way you do that is the little building blocks you put on since they were born and that this is the way we do things around here. So people talk about workplace culture, and there's a home culture as well, where you say, well, this is how we do things, and this is what we stand for, and and hope that the kids can and that's not always right. So that's this is where the challenge comes now that you might believe it's the right way to do something, but maybe it's not. And they have influences outside the household now that, are quite strong. Joe Bovell [00:20:37]: The school system is I I think, they dedicate a lot of time now to the values and how they wanna be as people when they get to the end of the school journey. So that's certainly that and then their peer group. So I think you can lay the foundation stones and hope that that is the platform that they need, and then they'll top up and put their own icing on the cake. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:56]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve be, Chris. In one word, what is fatherhood? Joe Bovell [00:21:03]: Satisfying. When was Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]: the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Joe Bovell [00:21:13]: When I saw her become really independent, form strong opinions on a particular issue, and be eloquent in that, and be cognizant of the audience that she was around. And you think, okay, yeah, she's turning into a remarkable woman. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:29]: Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Joe Bovell [00:21:33]: Probably a pain in the ass, I'd suggest, to be honest. I'm pretty motivated and driven, and I struggle with the concept that they might still be in bed at 11 o'clock in the morning. So but I would hope that they would see that I'm committed and motivated and always try and do the right thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:48]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Joe Bovell [00:21:50]: My kids do. Because we've touched on a journey. You know that there was no manual when we got the child, and it's an interesting journey because we did the prenatal classes, and there's all this attention on the child on the birth. But you know what? There was no education when you got the baby home. So we got home and said, jeez, what do we do now? So that was a real wake up call. So there's no manual. You're learning on the job, and you know you never nail it. So the inspiration is to keep getting better at what you do along their journey. Joe Bovell [00:22:20]: And the challenge also is that is evolving as they grow into adults. So they're the 2 people who shaped me the most. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]: Now you've shared a lot about your own journey. You've shared some of the highs, the lows, you've shared thoughts and perspectives and and some ideas as well. As we're finishing up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Joe Bovell [00:22:40]: I think make the most of every moment. It is incredibly fast that journey from birth to your child being 18. People talk about it, but when you live it, not a day goes past when I don't remember their birth and what that was at that time and the impact it had on us and me individually. And I cannot believe how fast that journey goes. And my advice would be take the time to go to the school assembly, to have the moments with them alone in a park, and go for those walks and have those conversation, to know that it might be the last time you ever get that chance to spend with them. I'm not trying to sound morbid, but you'll never get that time back. And those cutest things when they're at their, school assemblies and they're doing their plays and they're cast as a tree and you've helped paint their costume and that goes so quickly. And then you you're dealing with a 16 year old daughter who's more interested in the friends and and Ariana Grande and all these other influences that those conversations and moments with dad, they will never be the same. Joe Bovell [00:23:40]: They won't probably be as much as what you had when they were much younger. So cherish every moment that you can because, a, go so quickly, and, b, as they grow into adults, they generally wanna spend less time with you. So make the most of the time that you have because it is gold. That's my advice. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]: Well, Joey, just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey today. If people wanna find out more about you, is there a good place for them to go? Joe Bovell [00:24:04]: I'm I'm not a social media king, but I'm sure you can probably find me online. LinkedIn's probably a a good option for me or Facebook. I'd love to hear from people all around the world. That'd be fantastic. And that was my reasoning for doing this was it was slightly cathartic because I did get down in some deep dark places in my chapters. But it's about can I if I can help one person or give just the smallest piece of advice that helps someone, one dad, then my job is done, and I'm really happy with that? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:32]: And we've mentioned the book already, but Sarah McConachie has a book that has a number of dads in it. You've heard from a number of the dads already. And Joe is one of the authors from that book, And I encourage you to go and check it out. You can go to workhardparenthard.com.au to find out more and be able to get some more information on the book and read more about Joe's story, as well as many other dad stories that are working to be the best dads that they can be, but also to provide a gender equitable home that allow for that equal role of parents and the work within the home. And that's an important discussion to have and important things to read and to learn about. So, Joe, thank you so much again for being here, and I wish you all the best. If you've enjoyed today's of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:38]: We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week. All geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.

This week on the Dads with Daughters Podcast, we welcome Doug Veal, a devoted father and past Police Detective. In this episode we dive deep into learning more about Doug's journey and what he had to do to be the dad that he knew that he wanted to be. The Pivot to Parenthood  When Doug Veal discovered he would become a father, the ensuing excitement was matched by an awareness of his wife's heart condition. The joy of fatherhood came with a responsibility to pivot his focus from being a police officer to providing for his family during their medical journey. Veal's decision to take parental leave, an unusual step in law enforcement culture, underscored the emerging shift in parental roles and the importance of being present during critical family moments. Taking leave amid the challenges of a demanding career, Veal showed that fatherhood demanded flexibility, courage, and an unabashed willingness to break from tradition. Shaping a Legacy Doug Veal's discernment in prioritizing family well-being over career progression serves as a testament to the evolving nature of fatherhood. Inspired by his belief in being a balanced role model and the potential of his children's future, Veal's journey from the force to becoming a stay-at-home dad exemplifies the sacrifice and adaptability required in modern parenting. He advises fathers to be patient and considerate in their interactions with challenges, knowing that these qualities shape their legacy far beyond tangible achievements. The Power of Community and Support Acknowledging the pressures and complexities associated with his transition, Veal harnessed the support of employee assistance programs and peer support groups to navigate stressful periods. His experiences highlight the crucial role of community in providing different perspectives and shared experiences. Belonging to a network of fathers allows for a collective wisdom that individual experience alone cannot replicate, providing grounding and solidarity in the adventure of fatherhood. Maximizing Family Time In today's world where work encroaches on personal life, Veal emphasizes the importance of boundary setting. Whether it's outdoor adventures or being present from morning till school time, he urges fathers to maximize quality interactions with their children. Veal's proactive approach to fatherhood—choosing meaningful experiences over work commitments—serves as a powerful reminder to dads about the essence of being present and cherishing fleeting moments. Reflecting on Being a Dad In the 'fatherhood 5' segment, Veal refers to fatherhood as an adventure while sharing fond memories like his son's merit for respect. His vision for the future is to be seen as fun, involved, and particularly, available. This segment cements the notion that fatherhood is an evolving journey marked by pivotal moments that shape not only the life of the child but also the personal growth of the father. You can learn more about Doug's journey as a father in the new book by Sarah Maconachie, Working Dads and Balancing Acts.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to walk with you on this journey that you're on. And to be honest, you and I are on this same journey together because I've got 2 daughters, you've got daughters, and it's always important to be able to learn from each other and be willing to learn from each other, but also to learn from others to help us to be the dads that we wanna be. And we do that every week by having some great conversations to delve deeper into what it means to be a dad, but also we get to learn from other dads in the journeys that they've been on to be able to help them to be the dads that they've become. And this week we've got another great guest on the show. You might remember that we had a one of our past guests, Sarah McConachie, was on the show just recently talking about her new book that is out called Work Hard, Parent Hard. And she's got books for dads and moms. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]: And we talked about her book for dads. And from talking to her, I got an opportunity to be able to get connected with some of the dads that she connected with in her book. And today we've got one of those dads with us. Doug Veal is with us, and he's a father of 2 sons. And he's going to talk a little bit about some of his own journey, not only with his 2 sons, some of the journey that he went on to go from working. And I'm not going to share too much yet because we're going to be talking about what he did, but working in the police force to becoming a stay at home dad and working with his dad, taking advantage of time to be there for his kids and and really delving a little bit deeper on that. So I'm really excited to have him on. Doug, thanks so much for being here today. Doug Veal [00:02:06]: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: I'm excited to have you here as well. And first and foremost, I love being able to turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back a couple of years, and I wanna turn the clock back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father. What was going through your head? Doug Veal [00:02:24]: I've always wanted to be a dad. I was really, really keen, but I wanted to make sure that we were set up in the best position we could be. And that said, we weren't really planning to have kids as early as we did, and I think it was about 6 months after we got married, to be honest. And it was, yeah, just absolute excitement, and then just that moment of going, oh, okay. Now the things are getting serious. Now we need to plan. So it's a pivotal moment, and it was a case of, alright. How do we well, what do we go from here? So I knew that the impact that it was gonna have on my wife and I was gonna be slightly more complicated than just, that overwhelming joy and excitement because my wife had a heart condition, so we needed to look at how that was gonna impact her health and, what that would mean. Doug Veal [00:03:12]: I think it's the common thing would be, yeah, we had a lot of excitement and a lot of nervousness to go, okay, what happens next? And how do we bring that into our lives? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:20]: Now you just brought up, one of the things that I I know that you dealt with very early on and not only through the pregnancy, but into the birth of your first child, which was that your wife did have some health challenges. She had a heart condition and had to have some significant heart surgery after the birth of your first child. So as a part of that, I know that you had to do some pivoting. You had been working as a police officer for many years, doing work with your government as well. Just very involved in the work that you had done in your career. Talk to me about first and foremost, so at the birth of your child and the health issues of your wife, I know that you had to take a more supportive role during your wife's health challenges. And how did that impact your approach to parenting and work life balance? Doug Veal [00:04:10]: On the lead up, so when Edison was born, he's my my first son. And when he was born, I knew that I'll be taking the time off. I knew that my work was especially replacing the benefits that I had access to allowed me to take that time off, and I took 3 months off. There were some interesting conversations with some detective senior sergeants. At the time, I was working as a detective investigator doing money laundering investigations at state crime level and then moved into corruption invest in a corruption task force. And the discussions initially to take that time off were quite challenging. I was talking to a quite seasoned and, I'd say, old school detective who hadn't really understood the support mechanisms that we like to try and enjoy at the moment. And I'm I'm really glad that we do have access to things such as parental leave. Doug Veal [00:05:02]: And I'm really glad that we've got access to things like parental leave, and we've got those supports and that the decision making for those to access that leave isn't to your immediate supervisor or to your district. It goes beyond that. It's on a more of a government level because being under that umbrella of a government employee. I think it was access or the pivot. So when Edison came along, I was going to be playing a a large role. I took took that time. It was time that I knew that I would like, but it was also time knowing that my wife had a caesarean section. There was some further support that was needed. Doug Veal [00:05:41]: So I really cherish that the month after Edison was born, being able to offer that support to be able to get that really good contact and to get to know my son and actually will rewind a little bit immediately after he was born. Well, the birth itself was quite an interesting birth. I think we had 27 people in the room for a cesarean section, which was quite a dramatic affair. So we had the normal surgery team. We had NICU people because Edison was slightly premature because there was some complications, and then we had a full cardio surgery team on standby to have given a 30% chance that my wife would have a cardiac event immediately following the delivery. So Edison was born, cried, and it was the best thing I'd ever heard, followed by the most scared I've ever been because now came the danger period. So after delivery, Edison went to the NICU and my wife, Nicola, went to the ICU. And I was in an interesting position I hadn't really planned for because do I walk one way or do I go the other way? Do I go to where my wife was or do I go to where my new child was? And I'm not gonna say we're trying no. Doug Veal [00:06:55]: I went I went, to where my son was and making sure that I could jog between the 2 because they were all housed in the same hospital. So that really cemented to me that I needed to take that time to make sure that us as a family unit, we're gonna be having the healing that we needed to be able to get through the next stages. So after 3 months, I did go back to work. And then knowing that after a few months, Nicola would need to have that heart surgery. So I ended up having open heart surgery. Again, that put me in a position of having an extended period of leave. And then almost it was 6 months to the day after the heart surgery, we fell pregnant with our second son, Terrence. That's quite funny. Doug Veal [00:07:38]: I can pinpoint the exact moment. One of them we found out and second of when the dirty deed happened because I was in between army training blocks, and I only came home for a weekend, which is quite an interesting little time peg, to be honest. But it's been quite the journey on the health front and the children front. But as far as making the decision or my decision to to leave placing, there was a few things that had occurred throughout the first pregnancy that I was slightly uncomfortable with as far as decision making and my ability to be able to invest what I normally do, which would be about 60 to 80 hour week because there's exactly what we're doing now. Part of the investigations were overseas. It was a case of you can't let off on the tempo when you're fully involved in an investigation. I wasn't in a position that I wanted to continue doing that. It was a choice that I made to take a step back. Doug Veal [00:08:36]: It's not something that I could've continued down that path in my current career choice. So I'm just saying I'd have to take my foot off the gas on the detective front. My transition to back to uniform. I was promoted after my leave, which was quite good. It was saying that was quite important to me knowing that I could access those entitlements and then that not having a lasting impact on my career after being warned by my detective senior sergeant that it would have an impact. It was quite good that it wasn't the case. However, a 3 panel roster is unforgiving for anyone else out in the law enforcement community and just shift work generally. Knowing that I did have weeks when my boys were quite young not seeing them, because we would have a, you know, starting a shift at 4 PM and then coming home at 2 o'clock to sleep until 10. Doug Veal [00:09:28]: It's not really a family friendly roster. So there was too much impetus on my career at the time, and that needed to change. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:36]: I appreciate you sharing that. Now, one of the things you just talked about was the fact that, you know, as a police officer, there's a culture, there's a expectation in regards to the work that you're required to do and probably some old school mentality versus new school mentality as it comes to thinking about parenting and being present in your kids' lives. You've mentioned the fact that you took some extended parental leave as you were a police officer, and that might not have been the norm at the time in regards to what you were doing. What motivated you to prioritize family time and to set your career on the back seat for yourself as you were focusing and putting the effort on your family versus the career at the time? Doug Veal [00:10:28]: Yeah. And I think this gets to the heart of the issue of of that balance. I've always had quite strong role models. So I looked at how my father was and the parts that I wanted to emulate and then the parts that I didn't wanna emulate, knowing that he's human like everyone. There's there's part, and he was a different situation. But looking at how I could shape my situation and knowing I had access to those lives, but also knowing that I get to shape the reality for my children. Parents have such a large influence about especially early on in what you can expose your kids to, how you can show value, how you can demonstrate those or model behaviors. That you know that your 2 year old, your 3 year old, your 5 year old's gonna emulate. Doug Veal [00:11:14]: So really wanting to set that strong role model and give them a balanced perspective. It's not about just being a champion or being an ideal or just a figure. So I look at who I've looked up to and which leaders and things that I've gone, oh, I wanna be like that person, and then started to really look down and go, well, I like them for 1 attribute or 2 attributes or a behavior, not across a set of behaviors. So I really knew that I needed to balance out and not just be one one figure. So and I think a turning point came to me, and it was an interesting one. I think it hit quite hard. So I got my army photos, and I've got my policing photos, and some parts where I've been at training, and some parts where I've done some other tactical training. And boys being boys, fascinated with guns. Doug Veal [00:12:08]: And then I had my 3 year old come up to me and ask me, basically, oh, so you're a policeman. You shoot people. And I was like, oh, this is a very difficult conversation, knowing that it's a touchy subject. And I'm not gonna go too much into that subject in this podcast. However, it was something that made me reflect and go, I need to really broaden the exposure or or how I present and to set that example for my children. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]: Now I know that in what you wrote in Sarah's book, you talked about the importance for you to access support through that journey for yourself being away from work, but also being present at home. Can you talk to me about the support services that you did take advantage of? I know you talked in your writing about employment assistant programs. How did seeking professional help contribute to your well-being during those stressful times that you were having, whether it be at work or at home? Doug Veal [00:13:09]: I've used the employee assistance program a number of times, and when I was able to engage it during the stress that we felt over the, pregnancy and through early childhood, it was a a huge benefit. It's like that I was able to go with Nicola and talk through some of the issues and talk through some of the difficulties that we're facing and trying to really put it in perspective. So looking at larger health concerns, we had a period where we bounced from crisis to crisis and where we actually struggled wasn't in the crisis times. It was in the periods of slightly less crisis because the priorities weren't quite as clear, yet there was still an enormous amount of things to be done. So accessing that support was really helpful in setting those priorities, talking through some things, and then getting beyond the immediate with some of the future planning. Another really good support that we've got, and I'm not sure if it's as prevalent in the US as it is in Australia. We've got dads groups, which are normally a Facebook group and you meet up at a park and it really grounds the fatherhood experience. You look at it and you go, oh, and it takes the edge off of what, yeah, the larger issues because you find out that there's 15, 20 different ways to deal with the same thing. Doug Veal [00:14:28]: For an example, Edison had clubfoot when he was born, and that was such an interesting experience, especially when I was I was taking that time off from work. I'll be taking Edison around the shops, And I'll get people stuff and go, oh, such a good dad and things of that nature. And he was on in a cast and things at that time, which was an interesting experience. And then I'll go out with my wife, and we'll get it just wasn't the same experience for her. It was always questions about how he broke his leg. And it's like, he hasn't broken his leg. So it was concerns about parenting so much more with my wife. And when I was out there, it was a conversation piece. Doug Veal [00:15:09]: So there was nothing but praise, which I found quite odd. Not saying take advantage and have some interesting conversations and enjoy it, but there was a big difference in the way that even saying it as small as going to the shops, the impact that that had. So talking through parts of that. And also I ended up joining a mother's group because I was the primary carer when Edison came. And I was sharing some experiences because my family had fostered for a large period of time. So I've always had kids in the house and quite young kids, which set me up a little bit, quite well for dealing with my kids. However, it's a completely different experience. I think we ended up in the mid nineties as far as the children that came for short stay through our house. Doug Veal [00:15:56]: So we had a range of different children with different backgrounds and experiences that we've worked through. So, yeah, quite interest. So back to the mother's group. So we were talking and we're sharing some experiences, and I could see that there were some people in the group that were getting quite fatigued and their resilience was quite down. And that was one of the huge benefits that we had with both of us being off work at the time or both of us being able to take some time off is that we could really get into some shift work and that wasn't a stranger for me. So I didn't mind doing some night shifts every so often. So going through the mother's grief and just trying to bring a bit of a calming influence of, yes, it will pass. There's a limited amount of things that the baby's going to be crying for and trying to bring something that I understand to be really quite an emotional experience down to, okay, hungry, wind, wet nappy. Doug Veal [00:16:49]: Like there's normally a finite amount of things that can be checked and monitored so we can, yeah, hopefully stop the crying for a bit and give you that 4 hour window of a little bit of sleep. It all changes after the second one, which I'm sure that your listeners are aware. Sleep when the baby sleeps is really good advice until you got 2, and then it's when it's just a challenge. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]: Yeah. Especially in those early years, you definitely go through that zombie period where you don't know what ends up and you're going on so little sleep. And and when I talk to people that are like, oh, my kids slept all the time. And I'm like, oh, I wish that I would had been the case. Because that's not always the case. Doug Veal [00:17:27]: No. No. It's not. And, yeah, some people, they need to know it's normal and it does end. It does end. But, yes, I remember there was a period, I think it was about the 4 month mark with Terrence, my second son. Well, I didn't want to go to bed. I knew that as soon as I go to bed, it's just going to be interrupted. Doug Veal [00:17:45]: I'd rather push through. And it was really challenging for about a month or 2 months. That period of sleep progression that was unfortunately teed up with, I think, with potty training with Edison. So there was just a lot of things going on, a lot of washing and not much sleep. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:01]: Now I know one of the things that you and especially regarding family time. For you, how do you ensure that your work commitments don't encroach upon those boundaries? Doug Veal [00:18:20]: Well, I'm lucky enough at the moment. So I'm currently an assistant director working for a federal agency. So most of the people who I supervise so the eastern states shut down. They're 3 hours ahead. So I've got a great flexibility in how I set my work schedule up, which is really quite handy. But with my boundaries, I really look to how I can maximize my interaction time with with my kids. So after work is kids' time. So you'll rarely find me on the phone after 5 o'clock my time. Doug Veal [00:18:53]: If the sun's out, we're going to the park. If it's good weather, we're outside. If it's not great weather, we've got a I don't know how many of your listeners are gonna be Bluey fans, but we've got that big green shed hammer barn, which is called Bunnings. They've actually got a playground in them. So we'll go to Bunnings for a bit. So school time, family time. Weekends, it's gonna be fishing, camping, going on adventures, taking the 4 wheel drive out. And I don't expect sleep ins, to be quite brutally honest. Doug Veal [00:19:23]: So it's a thing of the past. I was half when I wrote my chapter, I was happy with 1 every week, but like I'm just gonna say, if I'm not watching the sunrise or if I'm in bed after 6, then there's probably something wrong. No. It's good. I've got 2 young boys who are eager to start the day, and I'm eager to start it with them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:42]: That's amazing. Now I know that one of the things that you wrote about too, and some of this goes back down to what you said earlier that you were working 60 to 80 hours a week. Your job was taking you to many different places. But I know travel also seemed to be a recurring theme in your life. How would you say that your global experiences influence your parenting approach and your child's upbringing? Doug Veal [00:20:08]: I've really enjoyed traveling. I've been lucky enough to get out and about. I've done 6 out of the 7 continents for a month or more. COVID kind of put a really quite a big dampener on international travel. So when the restrictions ended, I jumped at the opportunity to take my boys and go to London to visit their uncle or my brother. So we went off to London. So there's a direct flight from Perth to London. It's a 17 hour flight, and I think I'm just gonna rename that the challenge. Doug Veal [00:20:43]: I think it was the better of 2 evils to be quite fair. I don't think a 8 hour flight and then a stopover and then another 10 hour flight or 12 hour flight would have really been any easier. But I'm set on giving my kids a series of experiences that's gonna round them out quite well. There's 7,000,000,000 people in the world. No one's got it completely right. We can learn by, well, one, getting out into our neighborhood, but then going beyond our neighborhood and looking for those different experiences and meeting different people. Yeah. London was a really interesting experience. Doug Veal [00:21:16]: They're not set up for Australian sized prams over in the UK. So, yeah, the footpaths aren't pram friendly. So my wife joined me for the first couple of weeks and then took a nice relaxing flight home. I soloed outed over in, yeah, a very, very busy city for a few weeks after that and tried to really give them the experience. I think it was more for me. I'm satisfied that it's more for me going to museums and galleries, but some really good photos. And even when they've had enough, I'll take a photo. I've got a really, really good one of Terrence in front of Van Gogh's Sunflowers where he's decided that he doesn't wanna play anymore at the National Gallery in London. Doug Veal [00:22:00]: And, yeah, it takes a while to get out of those places. And especially when the the more quiet it is, I don't know, they seem to hide the exits. We did the same in the National Library trying to get our escape route. But then slowly after we got some good experiences, we hit the parks. We hit the parks pretty hard. The boys love slides. So, yeah, from everywhere, from Axbridge to London Bridge, I think we've done every single one of those packs. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]: Very fun. Now, I guess, as we finish up today, what advice would you give to fathers who are similarly navigating the complexities of career advancement while at the same time trying to strive to be that actively engaged dad that they wanna be. Doug Veal [00:22:46]: Well, I know that I'm no expert have what you would like to do and the impact that that's gonna have. You get one run at it, so I would choose the things that last. So and that's one of the reasons that I've, in my balance, I'm probably tilted slightly more to the family side. I love my career. I'm quite particular in the steps that I take. However, I know that I'm a dad first, and that's really quite a large change. Having always been a police officer. I've been that for over a decade, having that as a large personality, trait to making that shift, especially when my kids came along. Doug Veal [00:23:32]: Life's full of choices. Some have much larger impacts and impacts that you're not aware of. And that's forefront in my mind when I'm looking at how I'm raising kids. But it's one of those thing that it's a privilege. It's at times overwhelming, but it's an adventure. So there's gonna be some great bits, some funny bits, some sad bits, scary bits, but some brilliant moments. So lean into it and enjoy the ride. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:02]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Yep. In one word, what is fatherhood? Doug Veal [00:24:11]: Adventure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:12]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father? Doug Veal [00:24:16]: That would have been about oh, it was last week. Edison fur oh, so he's going to school, 1st year in school, and he got a merit certificate in the 1st assembly for respect. So I was, yeah, a real proud dad moment. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:33]: Now I know your kids are young right now, but if I was to talk to them, how would they describe you as a dad? Doug Veal [00:24:40]: Depends on what we were doing immediately before. I think Edison would describe me as fun, and he would describe me as always wanting to give it a go. There's not too many projects that we haven't tried. We definitely take on some projects and give it a red hot crack. So, yeah, I'm gonna stick with give it a go. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:01]: And as you think 10 years down the road, what do you want them to say then? Doug Veal [00:25:05]: Available. If it was one word, they'd be available. Looked at different ways and behaviors that I'm gonna try or that I've brought in and values that I have about getting involved in community and service, and that's not military service. It's community service. So one of the ways I'm doing it at the moment is as a volunteer firefighter. Yeah. I find that I want to be able to impart those things. However, the one thing that I would like to resonate with them is availability. Doug Veal [00:25:34]: If they need me, I'm gonna be there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:37]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Doug Veal [00:25:38]: The cliche is my dad. So to a large part, it's that, but they do. So it's the dichotomy. It's they do because they are an absolute ball of potential, and their future future is not written. And it's my job to be able to assist, shape that. I can't control it. I can't do it all, But I'm gonna give it a really red hot crack in making sure that we get the best results we can. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:05]: And as we and finally, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Doug Veal [00:26:11]: Patient. You shouldn't be able to be wound up by your 3 year old or 5 year old or probably even your 10 year old. You're gonna get wound up by your 16 year old, but but I think that's a slightly different different area. But, yeah, patience. The problem isn't the problem. It's how we interact with the problem. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:29]: Well, Doug, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. If people wanna read more about you in Sarah's book or find more about you, where should they go? Doug Veal [00:26:40]: Yeah. So I can go to workhardparenthard.com.au. You can find the books there. We've touched on some really cool things in this, but there's a fair few more things that we can you can read about. And there's, yeah, tons more people adding their experience to it. So, yeah, it's it's quite an exciting venture. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:59]: Well, Doug, thank you for being here, and I appreciate you sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best. Doug Veal [00:27:06]: Excellent. Thank you very much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:07]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the Dads with Daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:05]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world to them. Dad you can be.

Fatherhood and Active Participation In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast we got to speak with Sarah Maconachie, a mindset coach and author, the focus was on the importance of active fatherhood in raising empowered daughters. In our conversation, Sarah emphasized the need for dads to be actively involved in their daughters' lives and the significance of being present, supportive, and open in their journey towards raising independent and strong women. Sarah shared her experiences and insights from her own upbringing and her work in advocating for equal parenting roles. Her perspectives shed light on the transformative power of involved fatherhood and the impact it can have on daughters' development. Challenging Stereotypes and Biases Sarah Maconachie's experiences and the stories she shared in her book, "Working Dads and Balancing Acts," challenge traditional stereotypes and biases related to parenting roles. Her emphasis on breaking norms that confine fathers to being solely providers and not nurturing caregivers is a powerful message for dads and their involvement in their daughters' lives. It serves as a reminder that stereotypes and gender biases should not dictate the roles that fathers play in their children's lives. The Impact of an Involved Father One of the key takeaways from Sarah's insights is the immense impact of an involved father in a child's life. She highlighted the emotional support, presence, and active participation of her own father, emphasizing how it shaped her and her sisters, propelling them toward successful and fulfilling lives. This perspective underscores the pivotal role fathers play in instilling confidence, self-esteem, and strength in their daughters. It also reflects the idea that fatherhood goes beyond providing financial stability and encompasses emotional, mental, and social support crucial for their daughters' growth. Encouraging Open Communication Sarah's recollections of her father being a pillar of support during emotional upheavals and difficult phases is a testament to the significance of open communication within the parent-child relationship. Her father's approachability and willingness to engage with his daughters on a personal level created a secure environment for them to express their emotions and seek guidance. This highlights the importance of open dialogues and nurturing an environment where daughters feel comfortable confiding in their fathers. It's an essential aspect of fatherhood that fosters trust and empowers daughters to overcome challenges and become resilient individuals. Shifting the Paradigm The insightful conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Sarah Maconachie outlined the need to challenge the existing societal norms and inspire a shift in the paradigm of fatherhood. Sarah's determination to make a change in the space of working parents and advocating for equal parenting roles stands as a beacon for shifting the traditional perceptions of parenting. Her work and dedication are geared towards creating a world where fathers are equally recognized as nurturing caregivers, capable of fostering their daughters' dreams, ambitions, and well-being. As you absorb Sarah's narrative, it becomes evident that empowering dads to be present, engaged, and supportive in their daughters' lives is a critical factor in building a generation of empowered women. Sarah's encouragement for dads to prioritize spending time with their children reinforces the idea that every moment invested in their daughters' lives profoundly impacts their growth and development. In this episode I found that Sarah Maconachie's insights brought to light the necessity of active fatherhood in shaping strong, independent women. Her work not only encourages dads to be present, nurturing, and communicative but also challenges societal norms, promoting gender equality in parenting roles. The takeaways from the podcast serve as a compelling call to action for dads to actively engage in their daughters' lives, fostering an environment where girls can thrive and reach their full potential.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being on this journey that you and I are both on to find ways to be able to be the best dads that we can be, to raise our daughters to be those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And I know, you know, it's not always easy. It there's not Oh, there's going to be bumps in the road. There's going to be times where you are going to hit your head up against the wall, and you're gonna say, oh, my gosh. There has to be a better way. And that's why this podcast is here is to give you resources, allow for you to meet other people, learn from other people, and gain some insights into the journey that they are on as parents, but also learn from them in regards to the journey that they're on in raising daughters or in finding other resources that are out there that can help you to do just that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have different things that they can share with you. Sometimes it's mom, sometimes it's dads. You know, there's people from across lots of different spectrums. And I am so happy that you come back every week and take a listen in to learn to be a little vulnerable and be willing to open yourself up to learning as well. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Sarah McConachie is with us today. And Sarah is a mindset coach for parents. She is an author. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: She has a brand new book that we're gonna be talking about called Working Dads and Balancing Acts. And don't all of us sometimes feel like we're balancing stuff and trying to work day to day and and trying to balance this thing called fatherhood. And when I saw that she had written this book, I definitely wanted to have her on to be able to talk not only about the book, but about her own journey in being a mother to a daughter as well and to kids to be able to bring that perspective in as well. Sarah, thanks so much for joining us today. Sarah Maconachie [00:02:27]: Hi. And thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be on here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:31]: I'm really excited to have you on as well. You know, one of the things that I would love to do before we even jump into the concept of this book that you wrote. So you are a mother of 2 girls and you're a female yourself. I know what it's like to raise daughters myself and what it was like as a father. But for you jumping in to being a mother of daughter, what was going through your head? And I know your oldest is a daughter, so that was your first. Talk to me about that journey for you. And what did you have to do to either prepare yourself to be a mother to a daughter, or what were the surprises that came with it that you didn't expect? Sarah Maconachie [00:03:06]: That's a really good question. I was very excited to have a daughter. I'm one of 3 girls and I had a great upbringing and I love my sisters. And so I was excited to have a girl because I was excited to potentially have what I had when I was growing up. And I think as a female as well, I'm a very determined lady, as are my sisters. All 3 of us have really done very well in life. We've got really good careers, and I'm a bit of a feminist from that perspective. I love gender equality, and I was quite excited to raise a strong, powerful girl. Sarah Maconachie [00:03:44]: I have to say that really excited me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: So talk to me a little bit about your own father. And you said you had a great upbringing. And you and your sisters definitely were given some things to help you to spread your wings, to be able to become the people that you are today. What did your father do specifically that you feel helped to pave the way for you to become the person that you are today? Sarah Maconachie [00:04:09]: The biggest thing, he was present. He was very present. He absolutely adores us all. He absolutely adores his 3 girls. He's a very blokey bloke. My dad. He's a sportsman. He played rugby, golf, squash. Sarah Maconachie [00:04:24]: You name it. He played it. So for him, I think he always wanted boys because the natural, you know, you want the sport, you want this and then the other. And he had 3 girls and it was probably the best thing for him. We all love something that he relates to, so he's got one that loves rugby, and he watches rugby with her. My other sister and I did lots of athletics and did lots of sport ourselves. So he got to do that with us. And the most important thing for him, though, was he was there. Sarah Maconachie [00:04:52]: He was a teacher, so he was at home at dinner time. And my memories of growing up were of us altogether. My dad was very, very present and he was just as involved as my mum was. And he supported us a lot when we went through breakups, boyfriends, friends, this, that and the other. It was actually our dad that we went to because he's a very soft person in that respect, and he was really lovely and really approachable from those emotional rollercoasters that we went on. He was really good at dealing with it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: So talk to me a little bit about you said that when those big emotional times came, you went to your father. And that's not always the case in every in every situation and every family dynamic. So what was it that your dad did to allow for you to feel that he was the person that you could go to when those things came up that opened that door for communication, for dialogue, for you to feel safe to go To him in those moments of need, Sarah Maconachie [00:05:57]: just always, he would always bring it up with us. I mean, mom would know what was going on because moms know everything and she would obviously talk to my dad and then he would come to us and say, this is happening. He'd give us a big hug and he would just tell us that everything would be okay. And it's just a phase in our life and that we have to go through these things. And he was just really caring and really supportive. And he would come to us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:24]: Now from all of this work that your father did in helping you and your sisters to become who you are today, I'm sure that as you grew and flew out of the nest, you and I talked before this, you you've been a world traveler and you have really explored. So talk to me about you leave England, you go to the United States, you end up in Australia. What's the one piece of advice that he gave you that you hold on to today that you look back on and say that was so meaningful? Sarah Maconachie [00:06:59]: The biggest thing was for me, and it's not actually that long ago, moving to Australia. Obviously my mom very upset because I was actually really close. Well, I still am. I've always been very, very close to my mum. I was always the mommy's girl and I'm the one that flew the nest. So she's always struggled with it, understandably. And they came to Australia when I had first met my husband, I think. And I think they could finally see that I was settled, and I've met a lovely man. Sarah Maconachie [00:07:30]: And I think that was a big factor for them. And my dad just loved it here. He absolutely loved it. And I just remember having a chat with him over a few drinks where all the good conversations happen, and he said, I'm just so happy that you're happy. And as long as you're happy, it doesn't matter where you are or what you're doing. I just can see the happiness in you. And for me, that's all I need. And that's always stuck with me because it's true and that's what I would want for my children. Sarah Maconachie [00:07:58]: You just want them to be happy. And although it sacrifices my parents' happiness with me being this far away to a degree, I think that, you know, my dad's able to really remove himself to a degree and be like, I just want you to be happy. And that's all that matters. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]: Now earlier today, you talked about that you see yourself as a feminist. You're raising daughters now. Talk to me about what did your dad do to support that feminism that you have within yourself? But also, what are you doing to now encourage your own kids? And they're young, and maybe you're not doing that much yet. But what do you hope to do as they get older to inspire that same sense of feminism in them as they get older? Sarah Maconachie [00:08:42]: Look, as I sort of outlined, both of my parents were always very supportive of whatever we wanted to do. I mean, I'm a big dreamer and my mum and dad will often roll their eyes at me and be like, here we go again. But I always achieve what I've say, what I've said I'm going to go out and do. So now the eye rolling has gone down a little bit. But with all 3 of us, they were just supportive of our hopes and dreams. They, you know, encouraged us to go to university. They encouraged us to do what we wanted to do. That was gonna whatever was gonna make us happy. Sarah Maconachie [00:09:13]: They encouraged us to do it, And they gave us good boundaries to make sure we stayed on the straight and narrow. And they both just really raised us to follow our dreams and to do what it was that we wanted to do to make us happy. I think that's the same for me. It's about being able to really express those personality traits that are hard in children, but actually are going to be magical when they're adults. And I notice this with my own daughter, My eldest in particular is very defiant. She really likes to think she rules the roost in this house. And to be honest, she probably does, But she also goes through the city and says, mom, when I grow up, I want to work at the on the top floor of the biggest building. And I'm like, you know what, girl, you go for it. Sarah Maconachie [00:10:00]: And she's very determined. She's going to win her kindy carnival. She is only getting A's. She asked me recently, what happens when you get an f? I don't even know where she's got this from. And I was like, well, you know, it doesn't matter. And she was like, it won't matter anyway, mom, because I'll only get As. She's 4. The determination of this child is just outrageous. Sarah Maconachie [00:10:21]: But, you know, instead of trying to squash that, I try and manage her expectations. But I also am like, you know what? If you've got the determination to go out and get it, then go and get it. I'm not gonna squash that because it's a really great trait to have. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:36]: Now I mentioned the fact that you have a new book that's out called Working Dads and Balancing Acts, and you have another book that called Working Mothers Inspiring Others, but specifically about this book about fathers. And I guess first and foremost, I I love to get the origin stories. As an author myself, I know how much time and effort and passion have to go into the creation of these books. And it takes a lot of time and effort and planning and passion to be able to get to that finish line so that you can get that out into the world. What was it about this topic that really inspired you to want to write this and get this out into the world? Sarah Maconachie [00:11:23]: I need to try not to ramble on for too long when I answer this because it comes from a big piece. So the way that I was raised, as I said, I was raised in a very equal house. And I think that even for my generation, that's quite rare. I remember having a conversation with my sister. I started blogging and writing a lot around working parents, but I wrote a lot about dads as well as moms because I just think that there's so much out there for mothers, but there's just not enough for dads. And there's there's not really a voice for dads, I felt, that really depicted the change in society and the way that things are changing. So I was having this conversation with my sister and I was like, oh, it's really funny that all 3 of hers are in very equal relationships. Our husbands are very involved with our children. Sarah Maconachie [00:12:11]: It's very fiftyfifty in the way that we parent. And in studying mindset, it really does go back to that belief system and how you're raised and that programs, how you then raise your own children and the way that you sort of deliver your own life is very much to do with the environment that you are raising yourself. So all 3 of us have really replicated the way that we were raised, which is amazing. And so we were kind of talking about it and I was like, but it just seems so easy that we are so equal in our household, in our relationship. But I also feel like that's because we're such strong females. We communicate what it is that we need our husbands to do as husbands and as fathers. And that communication piece and that learning piece really has enabled us to foster those relationships and that equality for our own children as well. So it kind of evolved from that, and that way of thinking that I was thinking more and more about dad, particularly in the workplace. Sarah Maconachie [00:13:18]: I'm very passionate about working as a mum and being able to create that balance. And I went through a process that I think a lot of mums do go through where I took a job that was really junior and about a quarter of what I'd previously been earning so that I could have flexibility to be able to look after my children as well as have a career. And as I went through a mindset journey myself and I really regained my own purpose, my own worth, and what it is that I needed for me, I realized how much that actually occurs, especially in women. But to solve the problem with that, there needs to be also work for dad. It needs to be a double edged sword. You can't just say, here you go, women are mothers in the workplace. Here's all the things for you, flexible working, whatever it is that you need. What are you also doing for dads for them to be able to take that load, which many dads actually want to do anyway, and to be able to really create that balance so that women can be doing that working and parenting, but so can dads. Sarah Maconachie [00:14:28]: So it really stemmed from that view, and I just decided to write these books. It just came out of nowhere to be honest, and I was like, I just want stories from mums and dads of their journeys that will help to support and provide advice and guidance for other moms and dads out there that want to work and have that balance of being a parent as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:53]: Now I know in the book you talk to fathers and you talk to a number of different fathers. Talk to me about some of the biggest takeaways as you were talking to them that you incorporated into the book that you hope that people are going to be taking out of reading the book itself? Sarah Maconachie [00:15:12]: Well, the chapters are directly from the dads themselves. So they have shared completely their own stories, which is amazing because it's different voices and it's completely their journeys, which I love. So there's a few things in there that are real takeaways for me. There's one who came who didn't have a father who came from a really difficult upbringing and his journey of trying to navigate fatherhood when he had no role model himself, is really incredible and really moving, but also he shares so much emotion around what he didn't share in terms of his own journey and how scared he was to become a dad because he just didn't know what that looked like and what that was as a role. So that was one real key aspects that I loved. Another one is a partner of a big law firm, and he shares a story which really, I had this conversation with him and it really sparked me wanting to write the dad's book. So he was telling me how his 2 boys he's a partner in a big law firm, so he would leave before the boys were up and was home after they went to bed in the week because he worked such long hours. And he was home for 2 consecutive days once and he was putting his boys, one of his younger boys, to bed, who was about 7 I believe at the at the time, and the boy was like what are you doing? Like why are you here? And he was like what do you mean? I'm your dad, I live here. Sarah Maconachie [00:16:41]: And he was like yeah but you don't. Like I know that you come and sleep with mum some in the week, but, like, you don't live here. I thought you just came at weekends. And he was like he cried. He was like, he's dagger to his heart and it made him realize the effects that this was having on his children. And he literally changed that day and made sure he didn't leave until the boys had gone to school in the morning. He made a change that the very next day and he's never stepped back. So there's that and there's, and then there's the stories of those, of dads that wanting to stay at home and have let their wives really thrive in their careers. Sarah Maconachie [00:17:23]: Like, there's such an eclectic mix of stories in there. It's it's just so inspiring to hear the different journeys and the challenges that different people face, but how they overcome it. And it's really, it's a reminder of how important it is to be present as a dad. There's a lot of older ish generation that didn't have paternity leave, that didn't take any paternity leave, and that look back and really regret that. So I think it's a really nice reminder that it's so important to be present because you do not get those years back. And that's really, for me, the crux of the of the book and the stories that are delivered is it's just so essential to be part of your children's lives and work and everything else comes second. So, you know, if you've got that choice, make it a good one. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:15]: So talk to me about, as you walked into the writing of this book, you talked to a lot of these fathers. Did you walk in with any preconceived notions that were shattered by what you heard and what was shared with you? Sarah Maconachie [00:18:29]: Not really. I think the journeys and the chapters and stories that have been shared were really as I ice age of, oh, well, you know, my wife does everything and, you know, that's fine, each their own. But it's really still apparent today and there's still a lot of work to be done, I think, in order to shift those stereotypes and biases of what dads and what fatherhood looks like. So for me, the book lived up to everything that I wanted from it. It's really created the stories, the journeys, and the challenges that I really wanted to highlight because it also has the flip side of regret or whatever that falls with those aspects of not prioritizing your family. So it delivers the right message, but it really fulfilled exactly what I wanted from it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:28]: And as you end the writing of this specific book, are there other questions? Are there other things that came out at the end where you said, I need to delve into this more? Sarah Maconachie [00:19:40]: Oh, yeah. Well, look, it's really spurred my passion even more. So I was working in the mindset space for the last few years, but it's made me so determined to make a change in the space of working parents. So I'm now focusing I've created a program for working parents across workplaces. So it's for dads and moms, and it's really enabling them to create a mindset that allows them to have more balance, have purpose, to create all those aspects that we do lose a little bit when we become a parent because we naturally prioritize our children. But prioritizing our children is a given, but we have to look after ourselves because we are the role models of our children. So the better versions that we are of ourselves, the better versions that our children are. So the book has really spurred me to make a difference, to be honest. Sarah Maconachie [00:20:39]: So I am determined to get into every corporate organization that I can find for them to be implementing support for parents that are working, because I just think it's essential for the growth of our children and the next generation. We are raising the future of employees, so we need to be the best version of us so that we're raising what we want as the next generation. So it's made me very determined to make a change. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]: I know every country is a little bit different when it comes to looking at things like paternity leave and and allowing for equal access to that special time, especially when your children are first born. How are you having those conversations with businesses? And what do you say to fathers that are working in companies right now that are not supportive of that, of how they can advocate or try to start those conversations within their own companies. Sarah Maconachie [00:21:39]: Well, actually one of the chapters in my book is from the CEO of Clough, which is a big mining organization. And his name is Peter Bennett. And so I worked for Clough after I had my first daughter and I left because it was like a clock watch. They it was like you had to be at your desk till 4:30 and I had this horrendous guilt and I just needed to leave because I wanted to pick her up and blah blah blah. So I ended up leaving. And I've had this conversation with Peter because he's actually since this was, I mean, 3 years ago or whatever, but since then, he's actually been one of the leaders for gender equity and for implementing all these changes for paternity leave in Clough. So within the last 2 years, not one man had taken paternity leave in that organization ever, which I just think is crazy. So now he's up there and now 50% of men have taken paternity leave within the last 2 years and are taking longer extended leave to spend time with their families and things like this. Sarah Maconachie [00:22:47]: So there's actually an incredible uptake for this in WA in particular, and it's been really well driven. There's a organization, CEOs for Gender Equity, and they are driving all this change. And especially with regards to paternity leave and maternity leave and it just being leave. It doesn't matter whether you're the mum or the dad, all, benefits for employees are equalized and you take it as, as you please. So there's a lot of that going on in WA in particular, which is amazing, but there is still a long way to go with a lot of organisations as well. So my advice, if you were in that situation where you're in an organization that is not supporting it, I would go with evidence. I would go with the research that proves and shows how important it is for dads to be present within their children's lives, for them to bond with their children in those early days for the support that's needed for moms. Like, it's just crazy to me how some organizations don't offer that. Sarah Maconachie [00:23:54]: I had a c section and twins. If my husband hadn't had 6 weeks off, I do not know what I would have done. I needed him home. It wasn't an option. I had to have him there. So it's really about being able to be realistic about this and just have those open and honest conversations. And you know what? There's lots of organizations that are doing it. So if your company won't do it, look for jobs elsewhere because they don't deserve to have you as an employee, in my opinion, if they are not supporting you from a parenting perspective. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:28]: Now you just mentioned the fact that people should look for the research that shows the importance of fathers and the engagement of fathers. If a dad that's listening is saying, I don't know where to start, where should they start? Where should they start to find that information to be able to get that information to use to start having those conversations? Sarah Maconachie [00:24:49]: A lot of the fathering groups. So Fathering Together, the Fathering Project, which is across Australia, just Google it, and you'd be able to find a lot of research on their podcasts. There's so many resources out there for dads now. It's just about digging a little deep to make sure you get it. But fathering groups, for me, that's where I get a lot of my information from because they're just brilliant from that space and understanding what is happening in the market. It tends to be pretty well summarized, I always find. So fathering groups on LinkedIn or Facebook. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:24]: Sarai Patel Well, Sarah, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing to be able to push fathers to think about things in a little bit different way. And if you've got one piece of advice that you wanna give to all dads, what would that advice be? Sarah Maconachie [00:25:37]: Spend time with your children. You don't get that time back, and it's precious time for you and for your children. I think that sometimes we believe that our children are more resilient than what they are at times and the love of their parents is literally all they need. So make sure you spend time with your kids. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:00]: Now if people wanna find out more about your books and other things that you're doing, where's the best place for them to go? Sarah Maconachie [00:26:06]: And you can find me on my website. It's usually a very good spot or on LinkedIn. So Sarah McConachie on LinkedIn or www.workhardparenthard.com.au is my website and all my programs and my books and all my blogs are on there as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:24]: Well, Sarah, it's been a pleasure having you here today for having you share your own journey as a mother, but also your journey in writing this book and getting this out into the world. And I wish you all the best. Sarah Maconachie [00:26:34]: Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:36]: The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:28]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:21]: You're the best dad you can be.

**Seizing Accidental Moments** Fatherhood is an expedition without a clear map, each phase of our children's lives an uncharted territory waiting to be explored. On today's Dads with Daughters podcast we welcomed Gregg Behr to discuss wonder and parenting. Behr, the executive director of the Grable Foundation and a father of two, reflects on the journey that began with trepidation upon learning he was going to be a father to a daughter. Amid fears and dreams, he emphasized his role in ensuring his daughters have 'outrageous confidence' in themselves. This emotional connection to fatherhood resonates with many dads, who similarly navigate gender biases and aspire to protect their daughters from the doubts the world may cast. But Behr offers a perspective shift: difficulties in parenting are universal. Yet, as a 'girl dad,' he feels a unique joy and asserts there's no hard part to being a father to daughters when the heart focuses on the small, joyous discoveries they bring into life.  **The Power of Intentionality** Life's unpredictability can thrust accidental moments of connection to the forefront of our fatherly experiences, as Behr discovered during prolonged periods of single parenting. These unexpected times can surprisingly foster deep bonds and familiarize us with the nuanced layers of our children's personalities. Dr. Lewis reiterated the importance of embracing these accidental, seemingly mundane moments. These slices of daily life hold the potential for lasting significance in both the parent and child's heart. **Infusing Wonder into Every Day** Shifting gears, the episode delved into Behr's co-authored book 'When You Wonder, You're Learning,' inspired by none other than Fred Rogers of 'Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.' Embracing Rogers' vision, Behr shared insights into being a deliberate learner and listener, and the ways in which he integrated these values into fatherhood and philanthropy work. He emphasized the importance of wonder and curiosity, traits often lost as we transition into adulthood. Yet, in mirroring behaviors of joy and wonder for our children, we counter the inevitable dimming of creativity that life tends to impose. **Beyond the Podcast: Living Lessons** The dialogue on 'Dads with Daughters' extended beyond theory, as Behr recounted applying Fred Rogers' wisdom to difficult discussions with his daughters. Whether addressing complex questions about safety and race or fostering daily habits rooted in amazement, Behr embraced the opportunity to wonder and wander through life's maze with his daughters by his side. Dr. Lewis and Behr's exchange serves as a potent reminder: fatherhood, while fraught with challenges, is a terrain ripe with accidental marvels and intentional teachings. The episode epitomizes the podcast's mission to aid dads in nurturing strong, independent women and the reciprocal growth that fatherhood engenders. As we pull away from the microphone and the echoes of Behr's stories and insights fade, we are left with the enduring notion that to be a dad with daughters is to be an architect of wonder, festooning the foundation of fatherhood with loving, intentional moments crafted from the everyday tapestry of life. 'Dads with Daughters' offers a community where such architectural feats are not only recognized but celebrated, as we all strive to be the best dads we can be, helping our daughters ascend into their own era of wonder. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to dads with daughters where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, we come every week and we have great conversations and I love being able to walk beside you as you are figuring this thing out called fatherhood. Every day is a journey, and every phase of life that your kids are in is a journey. And I'm just glad to be able to have these conversations and be able to be a part of it with you. Fatherhood can feel alone at times, but it doesn't have to be. And it is so important to be able to connect with other dads, to be able to create community, to be able to learn and be open to learn about things that may help you to be a better dad. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, people that have gone before you that are doing this alongside you as well, that have their own daughters and are learning along the way to be able to help you, to be able to give you some perspective, some insights, some things that might help you as you move forward in your own fatherhood journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: This week, we've got another great guest with us. Greg Baer is with us. And Greg is the executive director of the Grable Foundation, but he's also a father of 2 daughters. And we're gonna be talking about his own journey as a father, but we're also gonna be talking about the a journey that he had in not only writing a book, but really bringing a new perspective into his own fatherhood journey, which was that looking at the concept of wonder. And we're gonna talk about that. So we'll get to that in just a few moments. But the first and foremost, I am just really excited to have Greg here. Greg, thanks so much for being here today. Gregg Behr [00:02:05]: Chris, I am absolutely honored to be here, and I love how you described figuring it out because I feel like I'm gonna be figuring out fatherhood right in front of you right now. I Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: think you're giving yourself too little credit because I think you're doing some good things, and we're gonna talk about those things. But first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And you've got 2 daughters, so I wanna go back. I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Gregg Behr [00:02:32]: I was scared. I think probably like a lot of dads. It's not that I necessarily wanted a boy. We were hopeful for kids. We were hopeful for a healthy child. And when we learned it's a girl, I remember thinking, I don't know anything about girls. I wasn't raised in a family with sisters. Oh my gosh. Gregg Behr [00:02:50]: What am I going to do? And so there was joy about we're pregnant, joy about, the pregnancy going well and worry about what do I need to know? What do I need to learn? I knew enough at the time to know my number one job in their lives is to make sure that they just have outrageous confidence about themselves and what they can do in the world. And that so that that compass has always stayed with me from the very beginning before the moment they entered this world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:20]: Now I I've heard that before from other dads, from pretty much every father that I talked to, that fear comes with not only fatherhood, but being a father to a daughter. And I guess first and foremost, as you think about that fear, what was your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Gregg Behr [00:03:36]: Yeah. Chris, I think it was just it was that I didn't know what I didn't know. I think I fast forwarded all the way from 0 to puberty and I'd like to think that I noticed enough about the world to know that there's gender bias and things might be a little bit harder for a girl than it is for a boy. And so I immediately had that, like, I wanna be a bear dad who is, like, really protective of her daughter because she's gonna be amazing, and I want her to have all sorts of possibilities in this world, and I'm gonna fight off all of the gremlins who are going to poison her with doubt or get in her way because she's gonna be every bit of what she wants to be as a boy could be. Like, they seem like silly things to say out loud, but, like, these were thoughts in my head at the time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:18]: And I think that that goes through a lot of dad's heads. And as you move along, between those different phases in your kids' lives. You learn a little bit more, not only about yourself, but about your daughters. You learn that the differences may not be as different, even though they are. I mean, there there's definite differences there. What would you say has been the hardest part for you in being a father to daughters? Gregg Behr [00:04:40]: There's no hard part. There's honestly, there's just joy. Like the hard part hearkens back to something you said a moment ago. It's just hard being a parent. It's hard being a dad. I can't imagine living in this world without being a girl dad because I'm now the dad of 2 girls. And I will say Chris, we lost a child in between our 2 girls. And so I remember thinking when we had a healthy pregnancy and we were knew we were gonna have a second child, I was actually begging at that point. Gregg Behr [00:05:06]: I'm like, I want a girl. Right? Like, I fell in love with my first little girl, and I knew I'd fall in love with my second little girl. And I guess at the time, we had friends who had babies and young kids, and I was like, boys are crazy. What is wrong with that species over there? And I really wanted a girl. Like, I feel so lucky to have 2 healthy girls. I would have been happy with 10 girls. These young women now they're ages 10 12. They are strong and confident and powerful and fun. Gregg Behr [00:05:35]: They have good hearts, smart brains. Like, I love being around them. I guess I don't know at this point what it would be like to be the dad of a boy, but I feel so blessed to have these 2 girls. And it's just the hard part is just trying to be a good parent every day in the mundane little things in their lives, because it's those mundane things that I know add up to the big things. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:54]: Now with 2 kids, you have to find that balance to be able to create those unique relationships with each of them because each child is unique. Many times when you have more than one child, the personalities are very different. So talk to me about how you've been able to cultivate, how you've been able to work to develop those unique relationships with both your daughters. Gregg Behr [00:06:17]: Chris, I think in some ways, I've I've tried to be deliberate and intentional about this, and in some ways, I've been accidental. So let me explain. So in terms of being deliberate and intentional, even though I'm a workaholic and I probably don't give enough attention to my family, my personal life, my kids, the way that I should, I do try and be deliberate about the time that I spend with them during the time, you know, when I'm able to be home, when they get home from after school, they get home at different hours, their bed routines, and spending some time with them before they go to bed. And also because we have 2, my wife and I are often going in different directions because, So I try and be really deliberate about the time that we have cars together or on the sidelines or in a gym or whatever it might be. And just I try and be really mindful about being alongside them, not as a friend, but as a parent. The accidental part is this. So during these past 2 years, my wife's father, my father-in-law fell he became quite ill and ultimately passed. And I mentioned this to say that he lives a long distance away, half a world away. Gregg Behr [00:07:28]: And so what was thrust upon us as a family was that my wife was gone for long intervals at a time over a 2 year period. And there were, there were many months. I mean, we're talking more than 6, 7, 8 months that it was just me, single working dad with my 2 girls. And I don't wish this on anyone. It's hard. Honestly, Chris, I have no idea how single parents get by in this world having had a small window into that. And I will say this time when there was just the 3 of us, our relationship is so fundamentally different than it was previous to that. And there's a closeness and I really got to know both girls really well because I, you know, I had to spend time whether I wanted to or not. Gregg Behr [00:08:05]: Right? Like, I had to spend time with them in all sorts of household activities, in their school and extracurricular activities, just in their lives in general, in the little chat, you know, mini breaks and things we try to take, in the vacations, or even just walking in the neighborhood. And it's this accidental time that I'm unexpectedly grateful for. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:24]: Accidental time. I love that concept because I think that many times in the small moments when you come home from work and your child asks you to come in or they want to just they ask you to sit down and do something with them. Those can be accidental moments. Those can be those moments that become very important to the child and to you. And as they get older, it's not always easy to find that time, or that they want to spend the time. But it's important to take advantage of that time when they give it to you. Gregg Behr [00:09:00]: Chris, I just wanna celebrate what you just said. Right? Because one one of the things I learned during this period is exactly what we described. Now that we're lucky enough to be back together as a family, it's still noticing those moments, those mundane moments where accidental things might happen or when one of my daughters comes to me and says, hey, daddy. Can you take a break? Or can you play this game with me? And and I'm now much better, although I could always be better. I'm much better about noticing those moments and taking advantage of them. Because I I know that quip that people say all the time that the days are long, the years are short, but until you experience that, you don't really understand that. And so when one of my kids comes to me or if there's a moment, I try and be much more intentional than I was previously about spending that time with them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:43]: It is so important to find that time and to have that special time because as you said, the the years are short. I've come to find that and they go by really fast, especially as your child gets older, they get involved in more things in the years just fly by. And people tell you that, especially when you have young kids and you're like, that's not the case. You know, it's gonna be a heck of a long time until they're 18, a heck of a long time until they're in college. And I got all the time in the world. And then in a blink of an eye, it is over and things change again. So you have to be present in the moment in that regard, because it is fleeting. Even though it may seem long, if you have young children now, it does go by fast. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:28]: And you definitely have to take advantage of that. Now, I know that every father has moments that are memorable, especially moments individually with your children, where you've been able to create those special memories, the special experiences, what have been the most memorable experiences that you've been able to have thus far as a father with your daughters? Gregg Behr [00:10:50]: There are some moments with my girls that we've repeated because they're Monday moments that we've made special. In the fall, it's often the case. I love college football. College football could be on the TV which we can see from the kitchen and my girls and I love making homemade pizzas from scratch or when the snow comes and maybe every time the snow comes now pouring maple syrup on fresh snow and eating that and celebrating that, or just holidays. Like we make big deals in my family of birthdays and holidays like Christmas and New Year's and Valentine's Day and St. Patrick's Day. It's all of those little daily life things. And it's also true that some of our more special times together are when we're unburdened by work or the errands we have to run because we've gone away. Gregg Behr [00:11:36]: You know, we've gotten away for a weekend or we've been able lucky enough, privileged enough to schedule a trip. And even though, Chris, I'm I'm the sort of person that makes lists and I'm pretty deliberate and intentional about my work, When I travel, I like to go trucking. Right? Like, where is this road gonna take us? Or, I just read about this farmer's market in this part of Montreal. Let's go see what it's like. Right? A lot of unplanned time and I feel like those moments of unplanned time end up yielding the most special opportunities. Like, oh, remember we had that cheese or, like, remember we stumbled upon that zipline and we went ziplining over these beautiful mountains. Right? Like, it's those, I feel like, Chris, those most special moments are, you know, maybe it's the deliberate trucking or the deliberate exploration without a road map or a a plan for where we're gonna walk to that day, but it's those moments that I think as a family, we treasure the most. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]: The moments that you just talked about and the things that you're reflecting on make me really think about the fact that you are an author of a book called when you wonder you're learning. And in your book, you really dive deep into the concept of wonder, and really bring some of the lessons that mister Rogers brought out into the world in my formative years and the formative years of some of you as well. And I guess first and foremost, as we delve into this, I'm really interested in the concept of this book and the concept of wonder. But I'm also interested in the origin story of this because, I mean, mister Rogers definitely had a strong impact on people of a certain age, we'll say, of people that grew up with his teachings. Some others are just still are were introduced to him after the fact, through reruns and things like that. But what made you and your colleague, Ryan Radetzky, decide that you wanted to delve deeper into what mister Rogers was teaching and how any of us could capture wonder and put it into practice, whether it be a teacher in a classroom, or a father in his own home? Gregg Behr [00:13:47]: Thank you for that question, Chris, or us, what you need to know about me and my coauthor Ryan is that we're kids of Western Pennsylvania. I'm podcasting to you right now from Pittsburgh, which is significant because it's from Pittsburgh that Fred Rogers recorded mister Rogers' neighborhood for nearly 40 years at WQED, America's first public television station. And Fred Rogers himself is a native of Western Pennsylvania. So I mentioned that to say there's something in the water around here. Even though mister Rogers is an American icon, also a Canadian icon, he felt like he was ours. Right? And we had the experience of living in his midst, and and I had the privilege of of knowing him and subsequently his wife. And you mentioned earlier that I work at the Grable Foundation. I work in education philanthropy. Gregg Behr [00:14:33]: And so for a couple of decades now, I've I've been the luckiest kid in Pittsburgh who gets to figure out how to support amazing teachers and librarians and museum exhibit designers in places like schools and libraries and museums trying to make learning experiences better for kids and their parents, families, and caregivers. Great support for the learning landscape all around Western Pennsylvania. And you could imagine in the course of that work, we we, you know, we're trying to make sure we're doing our jobs well. So we're reading a lot about what makes for great learning experiences. And it was about 7 years ago that Ryan and I are reading these articles and peer reviewed pieces that come from the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon right in our own yard or the University of Michigan, MIT, Stanford and beyond. And these wickedly smart learning scientists were writing papers that increasingly read to me and Ryan as if they were scripts from mister Rogers' Neighborhood. And as you say, there are generations of Americans, including the 2 of us and you, who grew up watching mister Rogers. And we started to think, you know, is there another story to tell about mister Rogers? He's come back to our popular culture in movies like Morgan Neville's amazing documentary and and the Tom Hanks biopic. Gregg Behr [00:15:46]: But is there a story to tell about Fred who's not just that loving character that we remember in all of those television visits, but also Fred the learning scientist who was incredibly deliberate and intentional about his work and maybe a learning scientist who left us some blueprints about the things that we need to be doing today in our own homes or our schools and in our communities and neighborhoods. And Chris, it turns out after years of research and a lot of time studying the work of Fred Rogers, meeting with his colleagues, going to the archives, there in fact was a book to be written. And so we wrote, When You Wonder, You're Learning Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, Curious, Caring Kids. And in that book, we talk about the tools for learning and the ways in which Fred Rogers in the neighborhood cultivated curiosity, protected our creativity, found ways to support deep deep listening and loving speech. All I could go on with a a number of tools that we learned about his work that we could translate with practical, accessible, doable examples of things that people are doing today in our schools, museums, libraries, and neighborhoods to really live out what we describe as the Fred method that combines that learning science that we know today about how learning works, coupled with what today we call whole child. It wasn't used during Fred's time, but that sense that every single kid and honestly, every adult goes through the continuous learning that's social, emotional, cognitive, physical, and beyond. Right? And so learning science plus whole chart equals the FRED method. Gregg Behr [00:17:15]: And there's also a job and personal hazard to co authoring a book like this because then you start to wrestle in your own life. Like, am I doing this? Am I doing it well enough? And that's where we find ourselves today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:26]: So talk to me about that wrestling and what you, after all these years of exploring and delving deeper into what Fred was trying to teach that what you personally learned for yourself that you could incorporate into your own fatherhood that you either were doing or weren't doing? And how did you have to make adjustments? Gregg Behr [00:17:50]: What Fred did so well is he did lots and lots of little things. So we've used the word mundane a number of times in this conversation, and it's the mundane moments in life that matter. And I also speak to a big moment too. But it's the mundane moments maybe as I'm having a conversation about, you know, a new hard topic. Like, maybe my daughter's in middle school reading dystopian novels and, like, how do you begin to explain that concept? And I remember well that Fred, when he was trying to take kids to a place of mystery, he didn't start by taking us, for example, all the way to the crayon factory. Like, here's how crayons are made, kids. Now he started with his easel in his living room, a safe, comfortable place for us, showed us a crayon, something with which we were all familiar, started drawing and creating art, and talked a lot about that crayon, you know, and then use that simple thing that was so familiar to us to then take us off to the place of mystery about, for example, how crayons are made. And so I find myself, for example, in conversations with my kids today, wondering, like, okay, where do I start with a place that they can begin before trying to explain, like, here's how elevators run or whatever, like, whatever the subject matter might be that, you know, because kids ask thousands of questions, which is another thing. Gregg Behr [00:19:09]: Right? Like, I've learned to be quiet and to listen to their questions and encourage all sorts of questions and not be quick to say, like, hey, Alexa. What's the answer to this? Right? Like, even though sometimes that has to happen. I try and, you know, mister Rogers did, like, convey a sense like, Catherine, I don't I don't know what the answer that to that is, but, you know, later together, let's let's figure out if we can understand why the willow tree is blooming before every other tree in our yard. Right? Like, whatever it is because as you know, kids ask all sorts of questions. It also goes back to that sensibility that I described of of trucking, of exploring. You know, having times on Saturdays or Sundays when we tend to have the freest time in our lives to say like, what are we gonna try right now? Or, like, what if we put these three things together? Or, you know, mommy's making fried rice all the time and she's grabbing things from the refrigerator. What if we grab 3 things from our refrigerator, like the TV show Chopped and like, how could we put them together? So Chris, it's all sorts of little things, but if I may, may I share a big example too? This happened to me a couple years ago. Our book had just been released and it was a Friday night in March. Gregg Behr [00:20:17]: I was exhausted. I wanted to do nothing more than just lie on my sofa and watch NCAA March Madness basketball games. Right? Like there were 5 games on at the same time. Teams, I some of whom I'd never heard of before, like, oh, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna watch these amazing basketball games. And I'm sitting there watching these games and my daughter is resting with her head on the the side of the sofa. And she turns to me, Chris, and says, daddy, am I gonna be shot? Which for me, it was like, what? What did you just say? And sadly, there are a number of probably a lot of dads in this country who've heard that question before and the lots of others who've never heard it. And I hope they never ever hear that question. Gregg Behr [00:20:58]: And what I realized at that moment was that the news of the day of the week had gotten into my household and my kids are of mixed race. My wife is Asian American. And that week, a number of Asian Americans had been massacred in Atlanta. And somehow the news of that had gotten into our household even though maybe naively naively so, I try and protect my kids from, you know, all sorts of bad news in the world. I realized in that moment, Chris, it was like Fred Rogers lessons came rushing to me. 1st of all, I have to acknowledge this question. I can't obviously can't ignore it, but even though I wanted to ignore it and watch Cleveland say or whomever playing. Right? Like, I need to acknowledge this question, notice it, convey to my daughter that she's safe. Gregg Behr [00:21:41]: Like you're physically safe right here in this moment. You're emotionally safe that I, a carrying a dot in your life and right by your side. Honestly, I don't have the answers to this, but later right now and later in the coming days weeks, you know, we'll wonder together. We'll talk about this. We'll listen to each other. We'll talk about why this is on your mind. What's burdening you? Because as Fred said, anything that's mentionable is manageable. And there were so many lessons from our book, which is a book ultimately about creating those joyful, wondrous learning experiences in big and small ways for the kids in our lives, no matter what our role is, whether it's a parent or classroom teacher librarian or otherwise. Gregg Behr [00:22:19]: But in that moment as a dad watching back college basketball, like all of those lessons came home in a really powerful and profound way that obviously has become a core memory for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:29]: It's definitely a powerful moment, a powerful moment between you and your kids. And one thing that comes to mind when I think about what you just said was that for a lot of people, wonder disappears. And there's a point in their life when something some kind of a switch is flipped. And you go from this childhood wonder of looking at the world, questioning things, and looking at things with different, we'll say different glasses to an acceptance of the world as it is. And maybe not questioning or wondering as much. So as you were going through this for yourself, and learning more about what Fred had put into the world, and you're writing this and putting something new out into the world to try to challenge people to flip that switch back on, What did you find that could help people to rekindle that wonder within their lives, that could rekindle and flip that switch for themselves a little bit easier than it might be for their kids so that they can then channel that wonder back into themselves, but also encourage that wonder to stay flipped on for their kids as well. Gregg Behr [00:23:49]: That's one of our biggest tasks as grown ups in kids' lives. And as you note, it does seem apparent that we lose that sense of creativity and the wonder and and forget the joys of something that maybe brought us lots of joy and we maybe used to spend lots of time doing. Right? Fred Rogers said, the best teacher in the world is the one who loves what he or she does and loves it right in front of you. Now couple that with learning science research. And one of the many studies that Ryan and I cite is some work by George Land, actually from the previous century. And in his research, he documented Chris exactly what you described because he had used this test for NASA, our space agency, and identified that so many 5 year olds, it was 98% of 5 year olds who took this test developed for NASA scored so well that they qualified as creative geniuses. Right? And and to your point, like, you can think about little kids and they they come up with the genius solutions to all sorts of things in their life. So, like, they wonder and they're creating and they're like, what happens if I do this? And what George Landon and his team did was that they tested that same group of 5 year olds every 5 years through adulthood. Gregg Behr [00:24:56]: And 98% at 5 years old by adulthood, that percentage had dropped to 2%. Now importantly, what George land and his team concluded was not that our creativity just naturally fades, but actually that we as, you know, teenagers and then as adults learn all sorts of noncreative behaviors. You know, we learn to suppress those things or to take in other people's judgment. We learned that sense of perspective taking and empathy building. And what's Fred Rogers' solution to this? It's to model behavior. And it's why when you go back as an adult and look at what he did on that program, you could see Fred in his living room and he could be, you know, putting together popsicle sticks or cutting with felt. And he made it clear at that moment that it was bringing him great joy. And it wasn't just Fred. Gregg Behr [00:25:44]: Right? It was Yo Yo Ma and Julia Child and all of those folks we got to meet, the celebrities really that we met in the program. And Fred wasn't celebrating their gold medals or their major accomplishments. He was celebrating the joy of Yo Yo Yo Ma playing the cello or Julie Child cutting up ingredients. And it was also the the guests I mean, it was also the characters on the show. Right? Handyman Negri was not just the hand man. He was the neighborhood guitarist. Officer Clemens was not just policing the neighborhood. He was an opera singer. Gregg Behr [00:26:12]: Right? Fred was making it clear that people have joy and that they we don't need to give up the things that bring us joy and creativity as we age. And so it's a reminder to us, as Fred said, if we want to be the best teacher in the world, that we have to love what we're doing right in front of our kids. It's why a teacher who loves beekeeping and brings beekeeping into her math class can light up a classroom around math because she's brought beekeeping something she loves into that classroom. It's like me jumping on my skateboard in my neighborhood and not realizing that all the kids are watching and having joy as an adult going down my cul de sac and surviving. And unbeknownst to me, loving what I was doing at that moment and sparking an interest in those kids. We as grown ups need to be really intentional and deliberate as we do things as much as possible demonstrate that the joy that it's bringing us. So there's good reason to pick up that guitar or pull out those knitting instruments or or to do the things that bring us joy or to try new things, but whatever we're doing, to be clear that it's bringing us joy. That's how we counter that sense of losing creativity and wonder. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:21]: So how do you define joy? And how do you define wonder? And I can see concentric circles that there's an overlap, but how do you define them? Gregg Behr [00:27:31]: Yeah. Joy isn't just happiness. Joy is that internal sense of awe about experiencing something, witnessing something, doing something and in that sense of awe, I think is a a deep connection to wondering because in that moment you start to look around and you start to notice. Right? Like, noticing is really important because in that wondering, you start to then ask questions or provoke ideas in yourself or in others. And so to me, that sense of awe is in many ways a through line between joy and wonder. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:05]: Now you've put this book out in the world. It's been out for a while now. And you've been traveling, you've been talking about it, you're taking what you've been learning and trying to help others to incorporate this. What's been the response from your own kids to what you wrote, but also the change that they may have seen in you based on what you learned and are putting into place now? Gregg Behr [00:28:31]: That is such a great question, Chris. And I thought you were gonna ask me about how the audience reacts. Right? Because it's so fun to talk about something, some person like Fred Rogers to whom there's such an emotional connection. And Ryan and I have been able to identify from others in the world all sorts of examples of FRED method like approaches. But to turn that question to myself, I know one of the things that my kids have seen because I've taken them to I've taken them to events. It could be book signings. It could be a talk I was giving either locally or another city. Like we've created little adventures about this. Gregg Behr [00:29:04]: And they've seen in me and my coauthor, Ryan, the joy that we have talking about this book. So there's no doubt that they've seen the joy of producing something in the world that matters to others in ways little and big. And maybe because of that, I don't know. I've seen my kids doing more writing, doing more reading, doing a bit more presentations and playful things that they did as younger kids, as preteens. Now, I hope they see in me the joy that I've had and the hard work, right? Like it's not like there's hard work and joy too. Right? The hard work and the commitment that I've had to something and then to find ways to share in ways that are helpful to others. I'm so hopeful they've they've noticed that. I think that they have. Gregg Behr [00:29:50]: I wish they were here right now to tell you, Chris, what they've noticed and what they haven't, but that's what I hope they've noticed. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:56]: It's always a great way to be able to, later tonight, say, let's talk about this. Let's explore. Gregg Behr [00:30:01]: What do you wonder about when you wonder about daddy's book about wonder? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:05]: Very that's very meta. That's very meta. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions that to delve deeper into you as a dad. You ready? Gregg Behr [00:30:16]: I hope so. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:17]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Gregg Behr [00:30:19]: Patience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:20]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Gregg Behr [00:30:24]: In the quiet of putting them to bed at night and knowing that they were rested, well fed, and that there was some joy and laughter and goodness to their day. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:36]: Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Gregg Behr [00:30:40]: Silly, sometimes loud, hardworking, occasionally demanding. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:44]: In 10 years from now, what do you want them to say? Gregg Behr [00:30:46]: I love you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:47]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Gregg Behr [00:30:49]: Oh, Chris, as I start to tear up over here, I can't help but think of my own dad. My dad's a big guy. He's an amazing dad, big guy, big papa bear, played football, and he wears his emotions on his sleeve. And I feel like ever since I became a dad, I wear my emotions on my sleeve in the same way. And I I've gotten really comfortable with that. And if I can be half as bit as my dad was a dad to me and my brother, to my own girls, then I will have done a really excellent job for them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:22]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today. And as you think about all dads that are out there, what's one piece of advice you'd want to leave with all of them? Gregg Behr [00:31:32]: I tell my girls every day to use their good heart and their smart brain. And I suppose time will tell, but I hope that just the repeated conveyance to them, like that sharing with them, the encouraging of them to use their good heart, to use their smart brain, and to know that they're beautiful will prove to be sticky in the human beings that they become. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:52]: Well, Greg, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here for doing what you're doing to inspire wonder in kids, in adults, and challenging parents to encourage wonder within their kids as they grow up and flipping that switch back on to bring wonder back into our lives. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go? Gregg Behr [00:32:15]: They would find our book at when you wonder.org. And happily, you can ideally find it at your local bookstore, also at Amazon, Barnes and Noble. And I'm also on X and LinkedIn, Greg Bear. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:27]: Again, Greg, thank you so much for being here today, and I wish you all the best. Gregg Behr [00:32:31]: Chris, thank you so much. What a complete joy and honor to be with you, and thanks for letting me figure some of this out right in front of you. Thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:38]: The Fatherhood Insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:30]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the Best dad that you can be.

In the latest episode of “Student Affairs Voices from the Field,” hosts Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis bring Season 10 to a close with transformative updates and forward-looking announcements. Dr. Creighton opens the episode by introducing the podcast's continuing focus on transitions within student affairs, a nod to the overarching theme from Season 9. However, the hosts regret to inform listeners that the promised grand finale has been postponed. In its place, listeners are treated to the exciting news of upcoming bonus episodes featuring notable guests. One of the key highlights is the announcement of Dr. Amelia Parnell as the incoming president of NASPA. Dr. Lewis shares his enthusiasm about Dr. Parnell's upcoming appearance on the podcast, where she will discuss the future direction of the association under her leadership. Dr. Creighton encourages prospective candidates to check out the newly posted Vice President for Policy and Research position at NASPA, emphasizing the mentorship opportunities available. As the episode wraps up, Dr. Creighton expresses heartfelt gratitude to listeners for their engagement and support. She encourages them to reach out with feedback and suggestions for future episodes, and invites them to spread the word about the show. The hosts sign off, promising insightful discussions and inspirational stories in the bonus episodes to come.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:20]: Hey, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:24]: Hey, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:24]: Well, our finale plans have hit a bit of a transition, haven't they? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:30]: Yeah. I guess, we are finishing off our season of transitions with a transition as we move into a further transition of a new season. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:38]: So with that in mind, we know that we promised you a finale worth waiting for. And I think, first of all, we're very sorry we're not gonna be able to deliver. So we don't wanna lead you astray with our promises for a big finale, but we do wanna promise you a couple of bonus episodes for the summer, including a very special guest. Chris, do you wanna tell us who's coming on? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:57]: You know, we're really excited to have doctor Amelia Parnell joining us this summer as she transitions into the president of NASPA role. And we've already reached out, talked to her. We're getting a time with her very soon to be able to record an episode to talk about where we're at as an association, but where we're going in the future under her leadership. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:19]: And with that in mind, a huge congratulations to Emilia. We could not be more thrilled to be led by you going forward. You are going to do an amazing job, and I just am so thrilled to be seeing you at the helm of NASPA. With that in mind too, we also see Amelia's former position is now posted. So if you are interested in becoming the vice president for policy and research at NASPA, go check out NASPA's career page. You can see the details of the job description, the posting, and all of the relevant information. We know that whomever comes into that role has some huge shoes to fill, but we also know they're going to have amazing mentorship. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:01]: This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us atsa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:40]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of

In today's fast-paced world, the role of a father is evolving, and the importance of actively participating in one's daughter's life cannot be overstated. In this podcast episode, we have an insightful conversation with Nick Adams, a dedicated father of four and author of "Being the Dad You Wish You Had: 5 Big Stones for Effective Fatherhood." Through this discussion, Nick shares invaluable wisdom and experiences that shed light on the journey of fatherhood. His insights offer guidance on nurturing strong, independent daughters while navigating the complexities of being a father. Let's delve into the key takeaways from this engaging conversation. Fatherhood Defined: Relationship Building As the conversation unfolds, Nick truly encapsulates fatherhood in one word: relationship. This fundamental aspect is at the core of his approach to being a father to his daughters. Recognizing the influential power that fathers possess, Nick emphasizes the significance of focusing on building and nurturing a strong relationship with his children. This insight serves as a cornerstone for fathers looking to make a meaningful impact on their daughters' lives. Navigating Fear and Parental Insecurities Nick's candid reflections on the fears and insecurities he grappled with as he anticipated becoming a father to daughters resonate with many. His honest admission of feeling unprepared and inadequate highlights a common sentiment experienced by numerous fathers. By addressing these fears, Nick offers a relatable perspective that encourages fathers to acknowledge their vulnerabilities while embarking on the journey of fatherhood. Redefining Success as a Father A pivotal moment in the conversation arises when Nick reflects on the indicators of success as a father. His daughters' choices to actively engage in his work and to consider him not just as a father, but as one of their best friends, signify a profound sense of accomplishment for Nick. This reframing of success steers fathers away from external benchmarks and towards fostering relationships and open communication with their children. Individuality and Connection with Each Child Nick eloquently underscores the importance of recognizing and embracing the individuality of each child. Highlighting that what works for one child may not necessarily work for another, he imparts the wisdom of fostering unique relationships with each of his daughters. By valuing and understanding their distinct personalities, fathers are encouraged to tailor their approach to parenting, creating meaningful connections with their children. Balancing Career and Fatherhood With a busy schedule and a career that demands significant attention, Nick reflects on the necessity of finding balance between professional commitments and being an engaged father. His commitment to prioritizing his daughters' key events and establishing a consistent family dinner ritual underscores the significance of being present in their lives. Nick's experiences serve as a reminder for fathers to strive for balance in juggling their various responsibilities. Embracing Imperfection and Making Progress A striking aspect of Nick's insights is his emphasis on embracing imperfections while continuously striving for progress. By navigating the challenges of fatherhood with the mindset of making incremental strides, fathers are encouraged to alleviate the pressure of perfectionism. Nick's wisdom resonates as a reminder that the journey of fatherhood is about growth and connection, rather than achieving flawlessness. Advice for Every Father In a parting piece of advice, Nick extends a guiding principle to all fathers. He underscores the importance of understanding and supporting his children in becoming their authentic selves, rather than shaping them into a predetermined image. This profound insight emphasizes the transformative power of valuing individuality and empowering daughters to embrace their unique talents and aspirations. Nick Adams' profound insights and candid reflections offer a wealth of wisdom for fathers navigating the intricate path of raising strong, independent daughters. His invaluable experiences underscore the significance of relationship-building, the embrace of imperfection, and the quest for progress as fundamental principles in effective fatherhood. By leveraging Nick's insights, fathers can embark on their journey with renewed inspiration, equipped to nurture vibrant relationships with their daughters while striving to be the best dads they can be. Nick Adams' reflections highlight the transformative power of an engaged and empathetic father-daughter relationship, serving as a beacon of wisdom for fathers seeking to nurture meaningful connections with their children while navigating the rich tapestry of fatherhood.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to Dads with Daughters where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to work with you, to talk with you, to be able to be on this journey side by side with you, because it is a journey. Every day is a journey with our daughters. And no matter what age they're at, things are going to change and to be able to walk hand in hand side by side with other dads, learning from them is so important. And that's why I love being able to have this opportunity to talk to you every week because none of us have to do this alone. So often society makes it seem like we do have to, but that is not the case. There are so many fathers that have gone before us that have kids that have grown and flown, that have learned things and can share that learning with you, maybe your neighbor, but it could also be someone on the other end of your earphones. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]: And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you and help you along the journey that you're on. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Nick Adams is with us. And Nick is dedicated to helping men understand the power of living into their strengths and dreams and provides actionable tools for the journey to authentic manhood. He is an author. He's a father of 4. So we're gonna be learning more about him and his journey as a father, and I'm really excited to have him here. Nick, thanks so much for being here today. Nick Adams [00:01:55]: Christopher, it's my pleasure. I'm looking forward. Even as you were introducing the show, I I just feel excited to see some of the phrases you use about connecting, not just when kids are young, but ongoing and having relationship that that's great. I'm excited about the show. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: Well, I'm excited to have you on. And as I said, you're a father of 4. So first and foremost, what I love doing is turning the clock back in time. I know you have 2 daughters. So I'm gonna go all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head? Nick Adams [00:02:23]: Oh, I mean, honestly, I was terrified because, like, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't really have a great role model as a father. And so I found myself expecting and not just expecting a child, but expecting a girl, which that's like, okay. I mean, at least I sort of understand guys. You know, I've I've never pretended to understand girls. And so, like, wow. It just really was pretty traumatizing. If not traumatized is wrong, it was scary and exciting. Nick Adams [00:02:53]: Oh my goodness. So exciting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:54]: You definitely don't wanna forget that because your daughters won't let you live that down if that was the case. If you just say it was terrifying. So Nick Adams [00:03:00]: Yeah. It was both. Still is. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:02]: So I wanna hear about the terrifying piece because I hear from a lot of dads that raising daughters, that you definitely run into that there's fear that there's fear that comes with that. What was your biggest fear in raising daughters? Nick Adams [00:03:17]: Well, I mean, really my biggest fear wasn't centered specifically around daughters. It was centered around being a father. And and a lot of it just came from the fact that I didn't feel like I had a very good role model. And, you know, you hear people talking about, oh, you know, my dad told me every day or I heard over and over. This is, you know, a a life lesson I learned from my dad. And I was just like, I really don't have any of those, you know. And so I felt very inadequate and unprepared. And so I think that was my biggest fear because like probably most parents, after you realize you're having a daughter or a son or whatever it is you're having, you're just excited. Nick Adams [00:03:55]: It doesn't matter about the gender as long as I mean, my big thing was as long as they're healthy and we can have a a going forward and things to work out, I'm good. So my biggest fears were really surrounding being a dad. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:06]: So coming into fatherhood without that mentor, without that person that you could look to to say they did it right, and I wanna follow that example. How did you surround yourself or find other people as substitutes to be able to guide you in that journey that you were on? Nick Adams [00:04:24]: Yeah. Unfortunately, when I started down the journey of fatherhood, you weren't doing podcast. And so I couldn't find you. That would have been a great find. But I did just try to find other men who were further along in the journey and watch what they were doing. I was a youth pastor at the time that that I was starting my family and having children. And so I was watching other people raise their kids and I was trying to help them disciple their kids and and just help their kids grow up into healthy people. And so I had the opportunity to watch both what worked and what didn't work and to glean information there. Nick Adams [00:05:05]: I did a whole lot of reading, took classes. And then really, I think observation, that was probably one of the strongest things I had going for me because I was in so many families' lives dealing with their children and getting to to watch them. So I think that was probably one of the best things for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:21]: Now you have 2 daughters. Every child is completely unique, and they have different personalities. They have different wants. They have different needs. And as you are building those relationships with your kids, you have to keep that in mind. So talk to me about how you had to what you had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters individually? Nick Adams [00:05:46]: Well, I think you just pointed out what I think is one of the most important pieces, and that is acknowledging it. If you can keep in mind that these are not the same people and what works with 1 will not work with the other, then I think that's a big step forward. And then and and of course, they're not only are they different people, they're at different ages, they're at different stages, they're experiencing life in a different capacity. I mean, my girls are 2 years apart, which is pretty close, but still there's a pretty good difference between being a 4 year old and being a 6 year old, you know. I mean, you've you've not done any kind of school and you are now functioning as a 1st grader and being in the school all day long. And there's just a there's a lot of differences even in a 2 year gap. And if you have a larger gap, it's even more than that. And so I think just acknowledging that and trying to be aware of where your kids are in the process. Nick Adams [00:06:38]: And as as they step over those various hurdles of again, there's a pretty big difference between a 9 year old and an 11 year old or especially when they move on over to 12. You know, you start to have some pretty distinct differences there. So I think being aware of that and consciously focusing on what's their temperament. I don't I don't know if you're familiar with, the book, the 5 love languages. But, you know, I I read that and tried to not just apply it to my relationship with my wife, but also to think about my kids and say, you know, what is their love language? Because that was one of the things I watched as I was watching families and and being a youth pastor was you'd have 2 kids or 3 kids in the same family. And one of them would tell you my parents hate me and they're terrible and this is an awful family. And and you'd have another one and be like, oh my gosh, my parents are so great and and I feel so loved. And you're just like, what is going on? But I think a part of it is that we all experience love differently. Nick Adams [00:07:38]: And so just to your point, if you don't acknowledge that your kids are different and how you interact with them has to be different for them to feel that same level of nurture and love, then you end up with that kind of dynamic where you've got really different experiences coming out of the same home. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:55]: Now as you look at I mean, you're a busy guy. There's You've had a lot of things happen in your life. You run a camp for kids. And being as busy as you are, there's definitely this balance. There's balance that you have to find in your life to be able to do the things that are important to you professionally, but also being that engaged father, especially with 4 kids and having to raise 4 kids that are probably all going in different directions as they're getting older and getting involved in things. So talk to me about balance and how you were able to balance all of that and still be that dad you wanted to be. Nick Adams [00:08:30]: Well, you know, Christopher, I'd love to tell you I did a great job at that. I'm not sure that I did, but I did try. And you know, one of the things that I I talked about in the book is really the goal I don't think is to be perfect. It's to make progress and none of us are gonna do it perfectly. And, and I just, I acknowledge that through the years, I really probably didn't do that balance perfectly. But one of some of the things I really tried to focus on was being at all of my kids' events. I mean, my youngest daughter, I was actually doing a international trip and I missed her birthday. Now, never mind that I sent her to do one of her favorite things and, you know, paid for that to happen. Nick Adams [00:09:13]: And, but I wasn't there. And then when I got back home, I missed it by like 2 days. And when I got back home, we celebrate it. But probably for the next decade, just periodically, she'll remind me that I missed her birthday. You know? And and I just, I just laughed. I'm like, you know, honey, I missed one event out of your whole lifetime. The and that's why that stands out to you. It's because I was at all the other things. Nick Adams [00:09:37]: So but I think that's just super important. You know, my daughters were in gymnastics and they were in dance and there was competitions and there were shows and I just didn't miss any of those. And I really, I think I can say that honestly, I didn't miss any of those because those are just big events for them. And and so to be supportive, nothing was more important than that. And I think what is genuinely true for me is that my favorite thing in life is being bad. Like, there's not anything I do that I get more pleasure out of than being bad. And so that I think communicates to the kids that, you know, I'm not at their ballgame because I have to be there. You know, I'm I'm there because man, I wanna see what happens. Nick Adams [00:10:26]: I wanna watch you play. I wanna support you. I wanna be a part of your life. And so I think there are times yeah. I had to leave for work or I wasn't there every moment of their waking hours, but I did a lot of work to make sure that they were always supported in their events. And the other thing that we did as a family, my girls and my boys are kind of different ages. I got about 10 year age span between them. So I've got 2 sets of children almost. Nick Adams [00:10:54]: But my with the older kids, especially, we had dinner every night as a family. And that just, there wasn't a time that didn't happen when one of my girls was doing gymnastics and she didn't get out of gym until 8:30. None of us ate until she got home 15 to 9. And that's when dinner was because that was important for us to build that kind of connection and relationship. So those are some of the ways that I think I've tried to really balance career and busy and then family. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:26]: Now you mentioned the fact that you had you have a book that's called Being the Dad You Wish You Had, 5 Big Stones for Effective Fatherhood. And I guess, 1st and foremost, as a as someone that has written books in the past myself, I know how much time, effort, patience, and more go into the labor of love that becomes the One of the things that I've done is run some some businesses. I've run Nick Adams [00:11:57]: One of the things that I've done is run some some businesses. I've run businesses and nonprofits. And especially in the business community, I've got 2 construction oriented companies. And I found myself so I work predominantly with men. So I found myself pretty frequently saying to somebody, you know, they're they're a good worker. They've got pretty good skills. They just were raised by wolves. They have and what I always meant by that is they they just have no idea of how to engage with life. Nick Adams [00:12:28]: And although they're not really a terrible person that creates a lot of dysfunction around them because they just don't know how to live life and they didn't get what they needed as children. And I've said that through the years and I've tried to help my my employees and do different kinds of classes and just anything I can do to help kind of mentor and develop them. And so, and I don't think I've been particularly effective with any of that, but I've tried hard. And then one night we were sitting around the dining room table and we were answering conversation starters. And the conversation starter this particular night was if you could change anything in the world, what would it be? And like a bolt of lightning, I knew if I could change anything in the world, I would create effective fathers. Because if I could create effective fathers, I could change the world. And that became kind of the genesis of the book for me, is realizing that really what I wanted to do and what I believe would have the most impact of anything I could do would be to help create a situation where fathers could be more effective. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:33]: In sharing this out into the world, I know that you drew from your own experiences, and you put those experiences into the book. What were some of the biggest takeaways that you really wanted someone to take out of reading this as you walked in? And what are you finding now that it is out in the world and people are are reading it that they are pulling out of it? Nick Adams [00:13:56]: Yeah. I think really one of the biggest things kind of the 2 big things that I would want people to get out of the book and they're not like written as a part of a chapter, they're kinda just, I hope it's there, is that dads are really influential. They're very powerful. Now actually that is one of the chapters, but you know, that they just have a lot of influence. And if you as a father, just focus a little, you're going to make a difference in your kid's life because you have so much ability and so much influence to bring to their lives. So that's one thing. And then the other thing that I always want dads to realize, and I've said it already today is it's not about being perfect. It's about making progress. Nick Adams [00:14:39]: And I think because as fathers, I think we can just get so overwhelmed and feel like I don't know what to do next. I can't tell you how many times, you know, especially when the kids were in the 11 to 15 range. I just think, I just don't know what to do next. I've tried everything I know and man, it doesn't seem to be coming out the way I'd like to see it come out. And, and some days you just think, oh, this is way harder than anybody told me it was going to be. I had no idea this is gonna be so tough. And so I think the big part of the message is just to say, it's okay. You don't have to do everything perfect. Nick Adams [00:15:12]: You've gotta just keep making progress in the journey, and keep making those connection points with your kids, building relationship. And you can make some pretty good size mistakes as long as you'll own your mistakes and keep connected relationally, and you're gonna keep moving forward. And so that's really why the focus on the 5 big stones because I think there's some things if you get them right, then other things will fall into place. And it's not 20 things to do to be a great dad because that's overwhelming. You know, it's kind of, here's 5 ideas, 5 mentalities, 5 things to understand that then you can incorporate into your own life to become the person you wanna be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]: Now I know that you've incorporated these 5 stones into the what you've done with your own kids, your kids. And, yeah, I know your daughters have grown. They've flown. They've gone out of the nest and are out in the world doing different things at this point. Now that you're at a different phase in your fatherhood and you look back, what could you what could you have done different? Or what would you have done different now looking back? Or even looking at what you've written and what you've learned, what would you have changed? Nick Adams [00:16:17]: Wow. That is a great question. Looking back, I mean, I really do think what I just said is probably a big part of it. I think I would sweat less. I would worry just a little bit less and acknowledge that I'm making progress because I just feel like there's so much value in that. It it takes so much pressure off, which makes you probably more relational and and be more able to actually connect with your kids instead of being all about, you know, I gotta do this just perfect. So I think, really that's probably one of the big things I would change. Not just about painting, I'd change that about most of my life. Nick Adams [00:16:51]: I would go back and and just kind of relax a little bit and know that it's okay. I'm going to make mistakes and it's probably not going to be the end of the world. And then when it really is pretty seriously bad, you just own your stuff and go on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:05]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Nick Adams [00:17:13]: I hope so. Sounds a little scary. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:15]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Nick Adams [00:17:16]: The first thing that comes to mind is relationship. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:18]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Nick Adams [00:17:23]: I have felt that with both of my daughters, one who chose to get out of college and come and work with me on a personal you know just daily level working in the camp and working with my speaking and writing and those kinds of things. Cause to me, a big part of success is having a relationship. And so the fact that she wants to be a part of what I'm doing was very much an, there was some success here. And then my older daughter has told me that I'm one of her best friends. And that to me is success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:56]: It definitely is. Now, if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad? Nick Adams [00:18:03]: That would be hilarious. I'd love to let you talk to them, and then I'd like to listen. But I think one of the things I did was ask them, because I knew I was doing this podcast with you and it was about, you know, fathers and daughters. And so I asked them, what are some things that were important to you? What were things that made a difference for you? And one of the things that both of them mentioned was something I shared earlier, just that you were always at our stuff. You made being there a priority. And then one of them said, you know, you made it easy to talk to you. I always knew I could come to you and tell you things and you weren't going to go crazy and overreact and that you would be able to listen to what's happening in my life and and support me emotionally. So they told me that I don't know what they would tell you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:50]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Nick Adams [00:18:52]: One of the people who has inspired me to be a better father. I just had the privilege of doing this funeral 3 weeks ago, but he had raised 2 of the kids that were in my youth group when I was a youth pastor long years ago. And they are now, you know, in their forties or whatever. But I just watched how effective he was with his kids. And at one point did a series of, of like small group classes on parenting. And I brought him in as the speaker and I watched his life. And so he was truly probably one of the people who I've learned the most from. His name is Paul Hively. Nick Adams [00:19:29]: Just you ask a name, there's your name. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:31]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of wisdom. Some things that you've learned along the way, some things that have worked, maybe some things that didn't work. And as you think about all dads that are out there and as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every father? Nick Adams [00:19:45]: I think one of the things that comes to mind today is just to acknowledge that your goal is to help parent your kids to be who they're supposed to be, Not to be who you want them to be or who you wish they would but to try to understand who they are and what their gifts are and their desires are, and then give them tools to become who they want to be instead of trying to create them and kind of the image you want them to end up as. Because really, we're not usually very effective if we're trying to create them in some image we have in our own mind as opposed to looking and seeing who they really are and then developing those gifts and talents that they have so that they can become the best version of themselves. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]: I really appreciate you sharing that, sharing your wisdom today with us. Now, if people wanna find out more about you and your book, where should they go? Nick Adams [00:20:38]: Well, they can get the book on Amazon. Just go to Amazon and search Being the Dad You Wish You Had. It's available as a digital book and as a paperback. It'll be coming out soon as a hardback and we're gonna do audio hopefully launching next month. So those are coming as well. And then you can reach me at info at being dash dad dot com. And that's also the website being dash dad dot com. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:04]: Well, Nick, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your own story with your daughters, and I wish you all the best. Nick Adams [00:21:11]: Perfect. Thank you, Christopher. It's great to be with you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]: The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along. And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.

In the first of three anticipated segments, David Christopher Lewis joins me to discuss his spiritual path and accomplishments under the umbrella of The Hearts Center, an Aquarian Essene Spiritual Community with satellite groups in the United States and nine other countries, including Canada. David is an inspired spiritual teacher, musical composer, author and, like me, a Clear (Conscious) Channel for Jesus (one who relays or records messages from Spirit while fully conscious) as well as Ascended Masters and numerous members of the Divine, including Kuan Yin. A dedicated spiritual student for five decades, David began receiving telepathic communications from the ascended masters in 2004, instructing him to launch a new movement. After getting to know David, we discuss his book, Jesus' Jewels of Joy (available at the website and on Amazon). At the end, David brings forth a message from Jesus...the first time I've ever heard him speak through someone else. Learn more about David's community, offerings and other books at TheHeartsCenter.org. Visit SpiritualInsightsRadio.com to book an Energetic Healing session with Charlotte, including the life-changing Ultra Clearing with Yeshua and the Archangels. Private sessions with Yeshua are available! Join the Spiritual Insights Community and gain access to exclusive content and events by subscribing to the newsletter. Thank you for tuning in!

Embracing the Journey and Overcoming Challenges In a heartwarming conversation on the Dads with Daughters podcast, Bruce Chamoff, a seasoned podcaster and entrepreneur, shared insightful anecdotes about his journey as a father to his now 20-year-old daughter. As fatherhood is a unique and deeply personal experience, Bruce's revelations bring valuable lessons to the forefront, shedding light on the joys, struggles, and growth that come with raising a daughter. Welcoming Fatherhood: The Journey Begins It's not uncommon to feel a mix of excitement and bewilderment upon learning about pending fatherhood. Bruce's recollections of the day he learned he was going to be a father to a daughter paint a vivid picture of the emotions that accompany this pivotal moment. He beautifully captures the blend of enthusiasm and uncertainty that fathers often experience, highlighting the eagerness to embark on the journey of parenthood while simultaneously grappling with the vast unknown that lies ahead. Navigating Fears and Challenges: Insights from a Father's Perspective As Bruce shared his fears and concerns about raising a daughter, he echoed sentiments that many fathers can relate to. The apprehensions surrounding teenage years, the challenge of letting go, and the anxiety about protecting their daughters from potential heartbreak are universal themes. Bruce's candid reflections provide a platform for fathers to recognize and acknowledge their fears while learning to embrace the inevitable challenges that come with guiding their daughters through adolescence. Lessons Learned: Embracing Uniqueness and Understanding Balance One of the most poignant moments from Bruce's narrative revolves around the realization that children, especially daughters, will never mirror their parents entirely. This acknowledgment opens the door to a beautiful journey of comprehension and acceptance. By understanding their daughters' unique traits and embracing the differences, fathers can forge deeper connections, fostering an environment of mutual respect and understanding. The elusive balance between work and family life is a feat that many fathers strive to master. Bruce openly shared his experiences, acknowledging the struggle to balance his entrepreneurial endeavors with his responsibilities as a father. His insights underscore the importance of finding ways to integrate family into career pursuits, emphasizing the value of involving children in a father's professional endeavors as a means of nurturing work-life balance. The Impact of Podcasting: A Tool for Connection and Growth Podcasting has been a transformative force in Bruce's life, propelling him to connect with a global community and share his passions. Through podcasting, Bruce discovered a means to weave a rich tapestry of stories—a skill that also enhanced his role as a storyteller in his daughter's life. His experiences serve as an inspiration for fathers to explore creative ways to engage with their daughters, fostering deeper connections through shared interests and joint pursuits. Legacy and Continuation: Parenting and Professional Endeavors In a heartening turn of events, Bruce's professional journey subsequently intertwined with the personal domain, leading to a collaboration with his daughter on the World Podcast Network. This fusion exemplifies a harmonious blend of professional success and familial bonds, underscoring the significance of involving children in parents' passions and enterprises. Through this alliance, Bruce not only imparts invaluable skills and knowledge but also lays the foundation for his daughter's professional growth and development. Navigating Fatherhood with Intention and Love Bruce's narrative offers an array of insights and reflections on fatherhood that resonate deeply with fathers from all walks of life. His journey encapsulates the essence of fatherhood—embracing the unknown with open arms, embarking on a path of continual growth, and fostering enduring connections with daughters. His story serves as a poignant reminder that fatherhood is not solely about providing but also about nurturing, guiding, and fostering a legacy of love and understanding. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to walk beside you on this path that you're on in working to be the best dad that you want to be and working to make those meaningful connections that you want to make with your daughters. Why is it important? Well, it's important because you signed up for it. You signed up to be a dad. You signed up to walk on this path to be there with your kids. And sometimes the journey can be lonely. Sometimes the journey can be challenging. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: And being able to learn from other dads, learn from other people, and understand that you're not alone is just part of the battle. I love also being able to bring you different people, different people that have gone through this journey themselves. They are going through this journey themselves and can share the experiences that they've had as a father because you're going to learn from them. And if you open yourself up to it, you'll probably take a few things away from it to be able to help you to be that dad you wanna be and to help you raise that daughter that you wanna raise. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Bruce Chamoff is with us today. And Bruce is with the World Podcast Network. I love talking about podcasting, but we're not gonna be talking just about podcasting today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: We're gonna be actually talking about Bruce's experience in being a father to a daughter. He's got a 20 year old daughter That also helps him with podcasting too by go down that pipe that path a little bit. But I'm really excited to have him on, to have him tell his story, and for you to learn from him. Bruce, thanks so much for being here today. Bruce Chamoff [00:02:02]: Hey, thanks, Chris. It was Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: my pleasure. Know, one of the things that I love doing, 1st and foremost, is I love turning the clock back in time. I said that you had a 20 year old daughter. So I wanna turn the clock back maybe 21 years. You know, back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Bruce Chamoff [00:02:19]: Well, I was at work, and my wife called me. Actually, we're not married now, but she called me at the time and she said, are you sitting down? And I didn't think of hearing that she was pregnant. So she said, I said, yeah. I'm sitting down. I'm pregnant. I was excited. I mean, I think every parent gets excited when they hear that, but they're also dumbfounded at the same time. And I had that going through in my mind. Bruce Chamoff [00:02:40]: And then right away, we were talking about names. And that was the whole conversation. And, yes, I was excited. But, you know, that you just wanna be a parent. And you know that the day you hear that you are going to be a parent, you want those whole 9 months to just fly by. And that's what was going through my mind. I'm like, okay. Yes. Bruce Chamoff [00:03:02]: I'm gonna be a dad. Yes. She's pregnant. Perfect. I wish that that 9 months would just come tomorrow. You know? And that was it. But it was a really good journey, that whole thing. I got that new dad book series. Bruce Chamoff [00:03:15]: I forgot who the author was. I was reading that, like, from literally the first week when I found out that I was gonna be a dad and I was prepared. And that was it. You know, the whole family was excited. I mean, you know how that whole thing goes. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:25]: So I talked to a lot of dads and a lot of dads say to me that in having a daughter, there's some fear that goes along with that. You talked about pulling out those books and reading and trying to immerse yourself and learning what you need to learn and trying to figure it out. But as you think about the moments you've had with your daughter and raising your daughter, what was your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Bruce Chamoff [00:03:47]: What I've been hearing about from most people, and that is, oh, love her right now because when she becomes a teenager, she's not gonna wanna know you. And then you gotta watch out for all the guys. And, of course, I'm thinking, well, I don't really care about that now. We're gonna go through 10 or 12 years of her not me not worrying about that and that's what happened. But when she hit about 13, she was acting like a teenager and that's when everybody says just watch the guys. They're gonna come. They're gonna blow on. I'm like, okay. Bruce Chamoff [00:04:12]: And I believe that's the big fear from Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]: It is scary. And now how did you get through that for yourself? Bruce Chamoff [00:04:18]: I mean, really, you can't prepare for that. You just have to go through it. My friend Jay has I forgot how old his daughter is now but it's funny because he was telling me I love my daughter. She says I'm the greatest dad in the world. I'm like, yeah, you know, my daughter told me that too. And after a while, it becomes sort of the opposite when it become a teenager. So just appreciate all the compliments she's giving you right now because those compliments will go away for at least 4 to 5 years, and then they'll come back. And then he said to me, well, I'm playing Roblox with her. Bruce Chamoff [00:04:49]: I said, oh, yeah. I played Roblox with my daughter. He says, they were around back then? I'm like, yeah. They're very big company. They're now public. They have a stock. People are investing in the stocks. Like, I didn't know that. Bruce Chamoff [00:04:58]: I'm like, yeah. I didn't know that either. But I'm now giving him advice that no one gave me because his daughter, I think, is about 5 years younger than mine. So what I went through and honestly, my daughter and I get along really well now. I'm excited to know what's going on in her life. She calls me almost every day. She's working for me on the podcast network. We get along great, and it's amazing. Bruce Chamoff [00:05:19]: I just said, Jay, it's gonna be a little bit of a ride when she becomes a teenager. And I tell all the dads, if your daughter is not a teenager right now and what people are telling you about your love her right now and appreciate all the love that she's giving you because when she becomes a teenager, she's not going to know you. And honestly, most people told me that. All I can say is you can't really prepare for that. All you can do is prepare yourself because you can't change your daughter. Your daughter's gonna go that way. She's gonna be influenced by peer pressure. She's gonna be influenced by other teenagers, and there's nothing you can do about that. Bruce Chamoff [00:05:51]: You can only change yourself as a dad and how you deal with it and just learn to accept it, know it's coming, and also you can take comfort in the fact it's gonna go away a couple years later. And that's what I thought as Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]: I mentioned, things are not always easy. As you said, you get into those teenage years and sometimes they could be bumpy, but there's heart there's times that'll go simply, and they just flow. There's times that will be challenging, and you get through those, and you push through those. What's been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter? Bruce Chamoff [00:06:21]: That's kind of a loaded question. I mean, I would say, probably, another mistake that parents make, and I made this too, and this is what the hardest part is, is trying to get your child, whether it's a son or a daughter, to be exactly like you. And I tell all the dads that's never going to happen. And you know what? My dad got ups. He got upset with me too because I wasn't into the things that he was into. And you have to realize that your child, especially a daughter, will never be like you. They'll have some of those traits. Right? Because they are your kid, but they'll never be exactly like you. Bruce Chamoff [00:06:52]: And, also, the mother, you're whether you're married or not, your co parent is not like you either. So your daughter is going to take some of those traits as well and your daughter is going to take some of the of the traits from your entire family that also might not be you. So the hardest part for me was, okay, determining how is she like me, how is she not like me, and how we actually end up in the middle and accept all those things that she's not like me? And I'm doing it. And it's it's really cool thing because now I'm learning from my daughter. My father told me when I was a kid that daddies know everything. And of course when you're a kid, you don't know much. You don't have an education. So you're going to believe that your father knows everything. Bruce Chamoff [00:07:27]: And then as I started growing up and learning computer programming, I realized my father doesn't know how to program. So now at this point, daddies don't know everything. And now my daughter is teaching me things that I never knew. So it's great. Learn from your kids. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:42]: You definitely can learn from your kids. I find that with my own daughters that I learn things from them, you know, sometimes things that I don't wanna know, but but you definitely are still learning things and growing with them. And and that's important because, you know, the the minute that you turn that off or the minute you're not willing to learn from others and from your daughters specifically, that's gonna close off the relationship. And so it's really important to be able to keep that relationship open in that regard. I know you're a busy guy, and you've got a lot of things going on. You're an entrepreneur. You you have this network that you're doing as well. You're doing a lot of different things, and you've been doing this for quite a few years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:21]: So as you look at the life that you've had and all the different things that you have done, talk to me about balance and what you had to do, balance the things that you were doing outside of the house and what you were trying to be inside the house, to be that dad that you wanted to be. Bruce Chamoff [00:08:40]: I'll be honest with you. I'm not the best at balancing, and I'm still learning that as I go through my life. Work life balance, I understand is absolutely important in anybody's life. So especially people who work. And I'll be the first to admit that I'm a workaholic. And at times when my daughter was growing up, there were times that I worked so hard that I did neglect her and I was always there for her. I mean, anytime she needed me, I I jumped and stopped what I was doing. But I always worked so hard, and there were times when I said to myself, I just have to stop what I'm doing right now and just be a dad and not be an entrepreneur and not be a workaholic. Bruce Chamoff [00:09:20]: And it's it's hard because you're a workaholic for a reason, you know, it's just like an alcoholic, you cannot stop drinking alcohol that easily and workaholic is the same thing. So I learned to just cut myself off at a certain time. You know, when 5 o'clock came, I said, that's it. I'm done working. I know I have a lot of things to do. Still, I have a lot of unfinished projects that I wanna keep on working on. And it's not just about the work life balance. It's also for your own health and your own stress level. Bruce Chamoff [00:09:49]: If you're a workaholic and you find it hard to stop being that way, my solution is to force yourself to just stop working at a certain time of the day. If you have to set an alarm, which is what I had to do, the alarm goes off and that's it. You stop working and you spend time with your family and that's it. So that's what I've been doing. And, you know, I'm in I'm now in my fifties. So the one thing that's actually in my advantage, like, if if you're in your if you're in the older generation, your circadian rhythm, which is your sleep cycle, shifts to an earlier time of the day, which makes it easy to stop working later on that day. So I used to go from to start working at like 8 o'clock in the morning to now I start working at 4:30 in the morning. And that's easy for me to do, to get up that early. Bruce Chamoff [00:10:34]: But with that said, I also cannot work past 5 o'clock at night. So at that point, if a dad is in that particular age range, I would say probably 40 years in age of up and up, It's easy to get up earlier, to start working and stop working and then spend time with your family. So to me, I think that younger dads will have a hard time with the work life balance than older dads. That's my experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:00]: Now I know that I mentioned at the beginning that you're a podcaster. You run this network called The World Podcast Network. You've been podcasting for quite some time, and I am a podcaster. I'm a podcasting fan. And I know what drew me in to this genre. But you've been doing this for longer than I have. So talk to me about what drew you into podcasting from an early point and how that impacted you as an ad. Bruce Chamoff [00:11:28]: When I was in college, I wanted to join the college radio station, and that was Kean University in Union, New Jersey, which at the time was called Kean College. And I graduated in 1988. I love heavy metal. I still do. And my daughter and I have seen a lot of hard rock and heavy metal concerts, which I'm so happy that she was into that music for a long time. And it also made us a little closer having the music connection together. And I wanted to play my favorite heavy metal music, but I couldn't get on to the radio station because it was booked. All the DJs the radio station was just full of DJs and there was no there were no openings. Bruce Chamoff [00:12:07]: So life went on. I graduated college. I've got a I got a degree in marketing, and I got a couple of jobs. 2005 when everybody was buying the iPad, like, almost everybody had an iPad, and I realized podcasting was out there. I ignored it. And then I was in a bookstore and saw from Todd Cochran of the Blueberry Network, the book for introduction to podcasting. Like, oh, this is a real thing because there's a book here. I didn't think twice. Bruce Chamoff [00:12:35]: I just didn't even look at it, and I just took it off the shelf. It was a shiny silver cover with green lettering. You can't miss that among other books. The artwork on the front cover was just there to grab your attention and it did. And I read that book literally within a week. And I'm like, I'm starting my podcast. And I did. And that's when I started my first podcast called the Fresh Music Series which is I finally got to be the DJ to play my music. Bruce Chamoff [00:13:01]: Now I was on Long Island at the time and I went on to Craigslist and put in that I had a podcast. And And because I'm also a musician, I'm a songwriter, and I'm still putting music out. If anybody wants to check my music out on Spotify, it's just look up Bruce Chamble. So I wanted to promote my own music, but I'm like, I'm not gonna be selfish about this. Maybe I could get other podcasters to come on to my podcast. And I put that Craigslist ad out, and literally, I had about 10 bands saying, hey. Play my music. Play my music. Bruce Chamoff [00:13:30]: Play my music. Okay. But you have to first email me that I have your permission that you're not gonna sue me in copyright infringement. And they said, yeah, you have my permission. I have it in writing. I went ahead and put people's music on my podcast and not once did I get sued for that. So I'm happy about that. And then I realized that there is something called the pod safe music directory started by Adam Curry of MTV and I started downloading all that music. Bruce Chamoff [00:13:53]: But my main goal is to promote my own music and other local bands. And that's what I did. Being a web developer and a marketing visionary, I envisioned more than one podcast. And I figured maybe I should build a website. It wasn't called The Podcast Network yet, where I have multiple podcasts. I know there are other podcasters out there. So I built a website called the Long Island Podcast Network. And I called it a podcast network because I wanted to be like a radio network, a TV network, a network of podcasts. Bruce Chamoff [00:14:27]: There was no podcast network out there yet, So I coined the term. And from there, 100 of podcast networks have sprung up all over the world now. But I went back on Craigslist and put an ad out there to the community and said, if you have a podcast, sign up. Here's the link. And I got 20 podcasts literally within 2 2 months. And then I had to expand the network. I got health, sports, technology, business. I mean, everybody was doing all types of podcasts. Bruce Chamoff [00:14:55]: And then I got called by Newsday which is the biggest newspaper out there on Long Island. I'm like, do you wanna do an article on my network? I'm like, this is like huge. And they came to my house. They did a whole a whole photo shoot on me. I started the podcast network February of 2006, so exactly 18 years now. And then 11 months later in November, it came out. And I was, like, blown away. It was a it was a page and a half, and it's a huge network. Bruce Chamoff [00:15:18]: There was a band called The Mondays that was founded by a friend of mine or fronted by a friend of mine named Ken Carmen. He joined the network and they're a pretty big alternative band. They're really talented rock band. And I played saxophone with them a few times and that's it. Like, he he told other people, people joined. So it's great. Now to answer your other question, how did this affect me as a dad and my relationship with my daughter? I just decided to get my daughter involved. So my daughter was how old was she? She was 4 or actually yeah. Bruce Chamoff [00:15:48]: No. She was 3 at the time. And I'm like, you know what? Work life balance. If I'm gonna do this, I wanna get my daughter involved and I think that's another thing that my advice to dads are whatever you're doing, if you're a workaholic like me, find a way to incorporate your daughter into your work and make it fun because that's work life balance. Right? You don't it doesn't have to be just you. And here's a good example. When I was 8 years old, my father, he was a CPA. And when I was 8 years old, he was working very hard during tax season. Bruce Chamoff [00:16:19]: IRS needs everybody's taxes filed by April 15th. So he would get bombarded. He would be working overnight and overnight and overnight and he decided to incorporate me into his business. So he had me doing filing at 8 years old. And that's a good example. It doesn't matter what you're in. I mean, if you're if you're a busy lawyer, then somehow you must have law firm, law forms, right, people fill out. Have your daughter come. Bruce Chamoff [00:16:44]: Let her do some filing. Teach her early how to be an entrepreneur and find a way. And I got my daughter involved and it was just amazing. My daughter also and I, we we did have a podcast called the daddy and daughter podcast. It was only, like, 4 episodes, and it just it it didn't work after a while, but it's still out there on YouTube. So, no, that's what you gotta do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: It is what you have to do. And you have to find that not only for yourself, that niche for yourself. I mean, I run about 5 different podcast myself. I'm either hosting or producing, and each is just a little bit different. And it goes to that multi passionate aspect. I hear people talk about people being multi passionate and having those different things that are you're you're so passionate about. And and I guess for me, you you know, bringing your daughter in and having her involved right now, how is she involved with your podcasting network? And how is that framing what she wants to do with her life? Bruce Chamoff [00:17:36]: My daughter is the maintenance manager of the World Podcast Network. We have grown so fast. We have over a 1000 podcasts that now we need to do maintenance every single day. And my daughter does the maintenance. She looks at the analytics because we give podcasters analytics. You can see your downloads and everything else. I mean, just like Buzzsprout and Anchor and Podbean, they have their analytics. We have analytics as well, and so does Spotify. Bruce Chamoff [00:18:05]: So we keep data, like, we collect the data. And my daughter will look at the analytics, make sure that they're up to date, they're working well. Sometimes the podcasters, they don't like their analytics. So they say, well, why is this graphic high? Why is it low? And my daughter looks at that and she analyzes it, but she does other things too. Like, she'll she'll do some data entry for the podcast network. She'll run reports. She'll generate reports. And she has a whole admin screen and a collection of reports that she actually maintains. Bruce Chamoff [00:18:35]: And she does a really good job with it. So I'm really very proud and to have her working for me. And the other thing too is when I work for my dad, and he passed away in 2005, so maybe he rest in peace. I feel like I'm giving back to my father by having my daughter work for me. So it's coming around full circle, and I love that aspect of it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:54]: Now have a go going from where you were to where you are today, where do you go from here? Bruce Chamoff [00:19:00]: That's an interesting loaded question. I would have to say that we just keep on defining our mission and making our mission better and trying to help people. I mean, my mission is to help podcasters succeed in a lot of ways, growth, monetization, and just getting their message out, like, whatever the theme of their podcast is. And every podcast has a theme. The question is, are you reaching the right people? Are you reaching your target market? I mean, I'm a marketing guy, like I said, so I think in terms of target market and demographics and things like that. So, yeah, I think about how do I make The World Podcast Network better for the community? And how do I make The World Podcast Network help podcasters succeed? And I just sit down and plan out that goal and I build it. And then my team test it and we go back and forth with feedback and it's a cool thing, you know. That's why I keep going. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:51]: No. I love what you're doing and bringing podcasts together and being able to bring people together. Now podcasters are storytellers. And podcasts, to be honest, I mean, for anyone, are stories. And individuals that run podcasts love to tell stories or bring those stories out. As a father, you're a storyteller as well. And many times, fathers speak over the years, are oral tell storytellers in trying to help their daughters, help their kids in many different ways. How have you found that being a podcaster has influenced you as a storyteller, but also as a father in being able to better lead your own daughter in the ways of the world? Bruce Chamoff [00:20:37]: Interesting question. I mean, I'm a public speaker. I have absolutely no problems telling anybody anything in public. And to me, the more people I speak in front of, the better. And most people are the opposite. Right? Nobody likes most people don't like public speaking, but I love it. And my daughter has actually traveled with me in a few to a few places when I've spoken at WordPress conferences or WordCamps. She's traveled with me to Cincinnati and I don't don't I think she's I forgot where else she traveled me to, but she saw me and she said that she's not really a public speaker. Bruce Chamoff [00:21:12]: I don't think that she would get in front of people and speak at this moment in time. Maybe she'll change on that. But I really just love showing my daughter that I have no problem getting in front of a group of people and speaking. It's given me confidence. And she did tell me in Cincinnati that she was impressed with how I can just control an audience. I thought that was awesome. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:30]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. I think it's important and it's important to be able to see where you've been and where you are today and where you're going in the future. And that helps your own kids to be able to set a path for themselves. Now we all always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Very cool. Let's do it. In one word, what is fatherhood? Bruce Chamoff [00:21:52]: I'll just call it joy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:53]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Bruce Chamoff [00:21:58]: Around 2006 when I started coaching her soccer team. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:02]: And what did you find in that that made you really feel that way? Bruce Chamoff [00:22:05]: Just the fact that my daughter and I connected in a particular activity that we could do together. I coached and she played. It was nice connection between the 2 of us. And also just the fact that, like I said before, we went to a lot of rock concerts together. I think my daughter and I have been to if I had to count, we've been to 6 concerts together, I think. And and that includes some pretty classic rock bands, like, we've been to the kids concert together too. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]: Now the question is is did you dress up like the band when you were there with the paint face paint and everything? Bruce Chamoff [00:22:32]: No. Not at all. But I did before like, I think in 1995, I did open up for Furley's Comet. So that was exciting. That was in New Jersey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:40]: That's awesome. Now if I was to talk to your daughter, how would she describe you as a dad? Bruce Chamoff [00:22:45]: Hopefully, my daughter would describe me as a very caring dad and a very hardworking dad to make us successful and giving. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:53]: Now, who inspires you to be a better dad? Bruce Chamoff [00:22:55]: My dad. That was an easy question. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:57]: Now you've given a number of piece of advice, a number of number of things that you've learned along the way that you've shared today. As we finish up, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Bruce Chamoff [00:23:07]: As I mentioned, for the younger dads with younger kids, don't worry if they become teenagers and they stop talking to you. Just learn to accept it. Don't stress over it and know that that will go away when you become a little older and never stop loving them. No matter what they tell you, no matter how disobedient they are, just give them your heart and be patient with them and everything else will just fall into place. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:29]: Well, Bruce, I wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here. Now if people if people wanna find out more about you, your podcast network, etcetera, where should they go? Bruce Chamoff [00:23:38]: You can look up Bruce Chamoff on all the social media. LinkedIn, mostly. I'm on Facebook just like everybody else or a lot of people. And I'm just starting to get on the TikTok, but you can always go on to the world podcast network at well, podcast dot network and send me a contact form message. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]: Well, again, Bruce, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your own journey as a father, and I wish you all the best. Bruce Chamoff [00:24:00]: Thanks for having me, Chris. It was a lot of fun being on your podcast, so thank you so much. It's my pleasure too. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:06]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:04]: We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be.

When Jesse Bradley discovered he was going to be a father to a daughter after having three sons, he knew this would bring a unique set of delights and challenges. Jesse emphasizes each child as a unique gift, advocating a tailored approach in fostering connections that affirm a daughter's persona, building confidence amidst the ever-present peer pressures. **The Power of Presence and Words** One-on-one interactions form the core of Jesse's parenting strategy, offering a safe space for his daughter to share her thoughts and feelings. He recognizes the formative power of a parent's words and presence, which serve as a bedrock for a child's development, especially before bed—a time both sacred and profound in the Bradley household. **Positive Reinforcement** In our podcast episode, Jesse shares personal experiences of affirming his daughter's worth and building her confidence, with a reminder to parents about the potency of positive reinforcement. His intentional interactions include daily prayer and reading sessions, maintaining an equitable balance between tenderness and honesty. **Grappling with Challenges** Jesse opens up about his insecurities in not understanding his daughter's world, from hair care to jewelry. He advises parents to lean into these differences and learn from their children, rather than maintaining a distance. Adjusting parenting methods to match the child's pace is also key, as Jesse demonstrates by embracing his daughter's composed approach to life. **Cultivating Hope** On the critical notion of hope, Jesse advocates for relational, habitual, and thoughtful practices to instill a strong sense of optimism in children. These practices are deeply relational, requiring attentiveness and intentional affirmations from parents. **Wisdom for Fathers** Jesse's advice encompasses being 'tough and tender,' encouraging dads to support their children's pursuits without trying to control them. He suggests a reflective approach to one's natural tendencies and emphasizes the significance of an honest and humble approach in parent-child relationships. In our introspective conversation, Jesse Bradley's insights serve as a reminder that fatherhood is a continuous journey marked by growth, learning, and unconditional love. His experiences and guiding principles stand as a beacon for dads navigating the waters of raising daughters in a world filled with emotional and spiritual complexities.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]: Welcome back to Dads with Daughters where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. I've told you this before, and I'll tell you it again. You know, I'm a father of 2. My kids are in their teenage years and in college. Your kids are gonna be at different places, but we all are on that journey together as we raise our daughters to be those strong, independent women that we want for them to be successful and to find that path for themselves. It's not always going to be easy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:53]: The journey is not always going to be a straight line, But it is something that we all go through. And it is so important that we are able to have these conversations and that you can learn and grow from the conversations and the people that we have here every week. I love being able to bring you different people, be people with different perspectives, different fathers, mothers, other people with resources that can help you on this journey, that can help you to make that journey just a little bit easier because you do not have to do this alone. I've said that before and I'll say it again. Fatherhood does not have to be a solo experience. Sometimes it may feel that way. Sometimes you may feel like it should be that way, but it doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't be that way. There are so many dads that are out there right next to you, your next door neighbors, the people around you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: And by reaching out, by talking, by sharing, by being a little vulnerable Yes, I said the v word, vulnerable. You can definitely do so much to be able to help yourself to be that dad that you wanna be. Today, we've got another great guest with us. Jesse Bradley is with us today, and Jesse is a speaker. He's an author. He is the lead pastor of of Grace Community Church, and we're gonna be talking to him about being a father of 4, as well as the, some of the things that he does on a daily basis and working with dads, but also working with just people in general. And I'm really excited to be able to have him here and talk about his own experience. Jesse, thanks so much for being here today. Jesse Bradley [00:02:26]: Christopher, it's an honor to join you. I've been looking forward to this. Thanks for all you do to encourage and to equip dads and really parents because we need help. We really do. I'm not joining you as a guest as someone who has all the answers or has it together. We're lifelong learners and parenting is truly an adventure. But we can encourage each other, I think through stories, through things that are working in one home are probably gonna work well in another home. And thank you for connecting dads too. Jesse Bradley [00:02:55]: Because like you said, the temptation I think is to drift, to be isolated. And with isolation, that's never the isolated. And with isolation, that's never the best spot to be. And we wanna come together and you've created community. So thanks for all you do. You've been very dedicated and devoted, and we appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:10]: Well, I really appreciate you saying that. Now first and foremost, one of the things I love doing is I wanna turn the clock back in time. And I know you've got 4 kids, you've got one daughter, 3 sons, and your daughter's 13 now. So I wanna go back, let's say 14 years. I wanna go back to the very beginning when you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head? Jesse Bradley [00:03:29]: Well, you know, that's an interesting story because we had had 2 boys. We'd also had 3 miscarriages. So we had really been on a roller coaster ride, and that helped us realize that every child is a gift. I believe that with all my heart. Every child is unique, wonderfully made, and truly a gift. Now with our 3rd child, when we showed up to find out, is it going to be a boy or a girl? The assistant who had the view of the picture, the first words out of her mouth were, oh, boy. And that's not probably what you wanna say when it's gonna be a girl because literally she looked at the picture and said, oh, boy. And my mind went to, well, here comes boy number 3. Jesse Bradley [00:04:11]: And then a few seconds later, she said, you're gonna have a girl. And I was like, wait, what? So it was a gender reveal that went one direction, faked us out, head fake, and then we came back and a girl. I knew this was gonna be a really different experience than the boys. Of course, there's a lot of commonalities, but I also knew this would balance our home a little more. With 3 boys right now and a girl, we were intentional to get a girl dog. Just, you know, trying to balance out the home a little bit. But I was excited. My wife had a name in mind, and it just seemed to come together well. Jesse Bradley [00:04:48]: And such a blessing. I'm so grateful for Lily. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:51]: Now each child is unique. You've got 4 kids, and you have to take that time, spend that time to connect on an individual level. When you have 4 kids and you have a daughter, you have 3 sons, what are you doing to make those unique bonds with your kids and especially the bond that you want to have with your daughter? Jesse Bradley [00:05:11]: That's a great question. It's easy to always be in a group, and you really need that one on one time. I like the phrase be intentional because a lot of times your child might not come to you and share everything they need, and they're hoping that you're going to pursue them. And that time for me that's been consistent is before bed. I feel like there's something about that last hour where people are a little more open, honest, share feelings, let their guard down, and that's been consistent for us and we do a couple different things during that time, but sometimes it's playful. We started playing catch with one of her stuffed animals that's round. And then we started keeping score. And eventually, what's our record? And we made it up to a couple hundred, but that was just kind of a fun thing we started doing. Jesse Bradley [00:06:00]: And I thought, okay, my daughter isn't into sports like I was, and that's okay. In fact, she's the exact opposite. I wanted to do sports with teams, scores, balls. She doesn't want anything to do with stress, competition. Like, she would prefer to just go for a run, enjoy a run, or a hike, or something, swimming. She would just swim for hours. She doesn't wanna race, but she would just be in the water for hours. She likes to swim, learn how to swim. Jesse Bradley [00:06:28]: So we're very opposite when it comes to sports. And this is just one of those playful things we did and started to she has a lot of stuffed animals, and I don't even know how we started. But, she learned to catch through that. And that was one thing we did. But more than that, during those times together, I listened to her how she's doing. I try to speak a lot of words of affirmation because especially middle school and even slightly before that, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of peer pressure. Sometimes kids tear each other down. Jesse Bradley [00:07:00]: Are you cool enough? How do you look? Do you fit in? And they're bombarded. And sometimes by the end of the day, they can just feel like I don't measure up and you know who I am is just not gonna work. And I try to come in with that voice of affirmation. And let me tell you, children need the affirmation. If you have a critical spirit and you're just always finding the areas that, you know, you don't think they're doing well and you lead with that and you overemphasize that, it tears them down on the inside. Yes. We do need to hold them accountable on some areas and bring out the best in some areas, but a lot of it is the affirmation. And I can just see there's a security with dad's voice. Jesse Bradley [00:07:42]: When I see things, and I'm not saying things just to flatter. I'm not saying things that are half true. Like, sincerely, what I see in her, it's so wonderful. And I put words on it. I don't just have that thought, but I put words on it. It builds up a security for her. And I think what it does is give her confidence that she doesn't have to chase after everything that her peers are chasing after. And she really is one of our children who has seen through the games and seen through some of the, you know, emptiness of just trying to be cool. Jesse Bradley [00:08:18]: And there's been a security and a confidence that she's had. And I I think that the affirmation of parents on her character, on her effort, on her creativity, on her kindness, on her intelligence, like, just all the wide range, you know, her face. One of the things we do before bedtime is is just a short time of prayer, or we like to read. Now we've read read a lot of different stories, but we also read, like, the Bible, and we wanna build her up. And when I think about parenting in that time, and I know I'm focusing on that time before bed, but that's been daily for as long as I can remember. Since she was just an infant, it's every night we're there in that time. And sometimes it's my wife and I. Sometimes it's just me. Jesse Bradley [00:09:06]: Sometimes it's just my wife and the longer one. Both parents are there, but it's just one will stay longer. But that is intentional with every kid. And 1 on 1, that's where they really they don't have to look around and say, okay. Are my siblings listening? What are they gonna think of me? They just pour out their heart. And when they feel safe, create that safe environment where they can talk to you about anything. And if you start that early on, then when the teenage years come, that's already part of the culture and the conversation. They're just gonna keep coming with that. Jesse Bradley [00:09:37]: And when they do, that's a gift. When they share their heart with you, that's a gift. And by being there to listen, sometimes it's not so much what I say, although the affirmation's important. It's just creating that safe place and listening. And as she starts to share about what she's thinking and feeling, just listening to understand, asking questions, drawing her out, She's a little more introverted than we have 2 extroverts, 2 introverts. And the extroverts just start to talk. And with those extroverts, you know exactly where they are. But the introverts, you have to kinda stop, ask them a question, give them time to think, ask them another question. Jesse Bradley [00:10:13]: I'm an extrovert, so that's not as natural as it should be. I think it's important to be quick to listen, slow to speak. I'm often the opposite. I'm quick to speak, slow to listen. So I've got to turn it down, ask questions, be silent, and then ask more questions. I've heard it said, you ask how someone feels. Say, how do you feel? And then you say, well, how do you feel about that? And then you say, well, what are your thoughts on that? You might have to ask a couple times to go deep. But once you create that trust, and all relationships come down to trust. Jesse Bradley [00:10:43]: And with your kids, do they really trust you? And when the trust is there, they open up and they share. And when they do that, that's a gift. And how you respond is important. And I love it that, you know, my daughter has said, I feel like I can, you know, talk about anything. That doesn't mean that she doesn't sometimes try to keep things secret or, like, we have a perfect relationship, but there's a trust that's deep and she shares deeply. One of the most precious gifts she gave me is a little coupon and she said, dad, this coupon is for infinite number of times coming into my room. And I mean, even this week, I got that years ago. It's at my desk. Jesse Bradley [00:11:25]: You know, this coupon's good for infinite visits to my room. Anytime, any and I come into her room and I'll say, well, Lilz, I just came in today because, well, you gave me that coupon for infinite visits. So I'm coming in for a visit and it's kind of playful at this point, but it's so sweet. It's so dear. And but we like to joke around and she has the way the heat is distributed in our house, it's not equal. And she has the warmest room in the house. And in the winter months, you know, in Seattle where there's a lot of rain and so forth, and I just come in there. I'm like, Lils. Jesse Bradley [00:12:01]: And she'll kind of say, do you just come in because I'm a warm room or do you wanna talk to me? You know, we we just play around with that kind of stuff, but we keep it light, we keep it fun, but then we also go deep. It's a both and. And I think a both and is really good. When you can laugh, you can cry, you can share your hurts, you can share what you're excited about, you can pray. Like, the wide range, that is rich. And I know for me, and I'll let you talk a little bit because I just got into these sweet times with my daughter. But when I think about being a dad, yes, there's protection. Yes, there's provision. Jesse Bradley [00:12:39]: Yes, there's the physical activity we do. And there's a lot of different components. But for me, what's close to my heart is the emotional connection and also the spiritual connection. And I think when I consider the fullness of fatherhood, like, how am I involved in all the different parts of her life to build her up, to encourage her? And I think a lot of times, it's when that emotional or spiritual connection happens that we feel the closest. And I like to go there. And that probably ties in, because parenting, I think, really starts when you're a kid, and it's your experiences with your parents, and that shapes you. And you either see things you wanna imitate or you see things that weren't there and you really wanna bring. And I think, for me, it's all connected. Jesse Bradley [00:13:28]: And I love the opportunity to have those times with my daughter. We almost always leave grateful. We leave appreciating each other. We leave those times just feeling joyful. Like, there's a smile, there's a laugh, and it's sweet. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:44]: I appreciate you sharing that. Now I know that in talking to a lot of different dads, there are sometimes some fear that comes with having a daughter, raising a daughter, and every person's fear is a little bit different. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising a daughter? Jesse Bradley [00:14:01]: That's a great question. I would say a couple of aspects. 1 you're right is that I know what it's like to be a boy. I don't know what it's like to be a girl. And when you have a child that's the opposite gender, for example, her hair. I don't know how I don't even have any hair right now. But, like, how do I help her with her hair as a kid? You know? And it's like, oh, dad. That's too hard on my hair, the the snarls and trying to get that worked out. Jesse Bradley [00:14:28]: And how do I talk about jewelry? How do I talk about painting your nails? How do I talk about things that I just wasn't into and I didn't do? And so she's already different in terms of gender, and then she's different in terms of she loves to read. She will go through book after book after book after book. When I was a kid, I felt like reading was very slow. I knew it was good, but that was challenging. She loves to read. She loves to draw. I joked with her that you passed me up at about age 5. You know, she could draw a better picture than I could as an adult. Jesse Bradley [00:15:06]: She's so talented as an artist and her creativity. And I was terrible at drawing. I still am terrible. So when you start adding all these different things up, it can touch on the insecurities that I have as a dad. Or can I really be a great dad if her talents are different, her interest is different, her gender is different, like, all these things are different? How am I going to support her well? These are not my areas of expertise, right? Like, if she wants to talk about a, b and c, I can do that. But she's into a lot of things that I don't know much about. So here's I think a key is don't stay distant in those areas. It's okay that I'm much lower than her, or I don't know much. Jesse Bradley [00:15:52]: Like, when she liked Pokemon as a kid, or she you know, it's like, I don't know anything about Pokemon. Like, Warrior Cats, I don't know anything about that series. But so just, I own it that I don't know anything. Okay. Lils, teach me a little bit about this. And then we turned it into a fun game because with warrior cats, it's like, oh, they all have 2 word names. And so I would say, Lilz, like, would this be a good word? Like thunderpaw, you know, or something like that. And it it just got to be playful. Jesse Bradley [00:16:24]: So that's that's one is realizing that we have a lot of differences, but don't let those differences become a distance where I'm not entering in. And it's okay to come in with a lot of questions and learning and just be playful with it. I think the other thing for me that I found internally is that I naturally wanna protect her a little more. Now sometimes that's good, probably sometimes it's not as good. But with, like, let's say boys start to have an interest in her, I wanna protect her. Like, that's my daughter. Like, something's awakened in me that even more than the boy is, not that it should be, but, you know, she can stand on her own. She's strong, but I feel an extra, that's my daughter. Jesse Bradley [00:17:08]: I'm gonna protect her. And, you know, any boys that come around or any threats or someone's picking on her, like, I feel like I'm gonna enter right in on that. So, those are, you know, some differences I probably noticed. But with the first two boys, they are up lots of energy. Like they want to do things. They want to go, go, go. And I had to get them to a park early in the morning and it felt like a park a day, you know, at elementary school. Like we we've got to get the energy out quickly. Jesse Bradley [00:17:36]: And her pace was a little different. She moves slower. She likes to sleep in. She wants to talk. She wants to start maybe more relationally, whereas the boys are looking for something physical and just picking up on these differences. I they weren't, like, planned ahead of time, but it was like, okay, this is gonna be a different rhythm with her. And it almost felt easier in some ways, because I don't know how to describe it exactly, but I just felt like we were being together. We were just being, and that was really, really good. Jesse Bradley [00:18:08]: Whereas maybe the boys, it was a little more on like, so what are we gonna do? What are we doing? And she could just sit in that being for longer. And that was another thing I picked up on early on. So those are some initial thoughts, but you're right. It was different. And, of course, it's not just gender, but, you know, different kids have different interests and passions and pace and all of that. But, yes, it was different. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:31]: Now, I know that you have a new book called The Power of 2nd Sight, How to Live with Indestructible Hope. And I know that hope is something that you talked to a lot of people about, not only within your church but just in speaking and and working with people. And sometimes with kids, under helping them understand hope, helping them understand what that means and how that impacts their lives may not be always tangible. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:01]: So talk to me about hope. And how are you working with your own kids? How are you working with other people to help them to better work with their kids, to understand the power of having hope and how to help their kids to kind of hone that hope within their life. Jesse Bradley [00:19:21]: Yes. Thank you for bringing up the topic of hope. It's really vital. Hope is essential. Hope is that confident and joyful trust in someone or something. When people have hope they feel alive, they're motivated. And what we see now, I looked at a recent study at UCLA that there's a 5th of high school students that are thinking about suicide. I I mean, we live in a time, especially the last few years since the pandemic, where there are so many people that are feeling hopeless. Jesse Bradley [00:19:49]: I remember the Census Bureau said 48% of Americans feel hopeless, less, and our kids are struggling with that. It's a generation with a lot of technology, but not always a lot of connection. And how do we come alongside kids and build up hope? Hope, it's linked to a lot of different things. I like to say hope is available to everyone. This is not just vague hope or hope that randomly comes and goes, but hope is relational. It's tied to your quality of your relationships. I think that's what parents, friends, God, I think that relational aspect's important. Also, hope is habitual. Jesse Bradley [00:20:29]: There's habits you can cultivate. So when we get together before bedtime, that's a hope time together. Right? When we have certain things we do together that are positive and their habits ingrained, they're worked into our schedules intentionally. Those bring hope. So hope can increase, hope can decrease. And you can tell when someone has hope. You can see it in their eyes. Some people are alive, and there's almost a fire in their eyes, and some people are glazed over in despair. Jesse Bradley [00:20:57]: And we need to come alongside kids and help them discover hope. And I think that can happen, in it starts with a parent and I think it relates to our our thoughts. I say the power of the second thought is that you can replace the negative first thought. Because we have thousands of first thoughts every day. And how do you replace it with an intentional second thought? Let's say you're parenting and the kids are pushing your buttons, and you're getting really frustrated. You might feel like, oh, I don't wanna be around these kids. And you have these thoughts about your kids that are not good. Right? And what can you do? Intention replace it with a second thought. Jesse Bradley [00:21:37]: Where we started today, my child is a gift. My child is so important to me. Or when you start to distance from your kid, you need to have that second thought. Like, the most important thing is my child needs to feel connected. And you go back to that connection and you reconnect. My child's more important than my phone. My child's more important than my job. My child's more important than my own hobby right now. Jesse Bradley [00:22:01]: And those intentional thoughts, they redirect us and we remember our priorities. We get the right perspective and we have hope and then hope starts to flow out of those thoughts. Well, a child has a lot of thoughts and during the day. And there's gonna be a lot of thoughts running through their mind. And those negative thoughts when they recognize those and start to replace those. And as a parent, you provide thoughts that are true and you build up your child. I think parenting is very conversational. There are intentional times. Jesse Bradley [00:22:35]: Like, I love the time my daughter and I went to the daddy daughter dance. You know, we celebrate that with a picture. And, you know, she's drawn a picture from the actual picture. We've gone to New York City together and including her in those longer extended times where it's just my daughter and I. Those are amazing. During those times, I want to be saying things that bring hope to her. And when she starts to hear those, then she'll start to believe those more. She'll start to own those and realize those. Jesse Bradley [00:23:04]: And when I talk about how special she is, every child's different. For my daughter, words of affirmation are very important. And when I start to bring those, now she has those and she's hearing that. And that's gonna help her what she believes and what she believes about herself, what she believes about her talents, and all those things are connected to hope. Affirmation, I think, is one of the ways that I can bring hope to my daughter. And when that foundation is strong, when she knows that God loves her, mom loves her, dad loves her, she knows these are her talents. She knows, that she is special in these ways. When all those things start to come together, there is a foundation of hope that is solid. Jesse Bradley [00:23:56]: And it's like that house on the rock and not the sand. And that's what kids need today. Can they do it all themselves? That's a tall order. But who has more influence than parents? I like to look at it this way. There's a lot of things I do that a 100 other people can do. If I'm not pastor Grace Community Church, there'll be a 100 resumes in tomorrow. During the day, there are all kinds of things. There's only one person that can be Lily's dad. Jesse Bradley [00:24:26]: Only one. And if you're the only one that can play any given role in life, right, I'm the only one that can be Laurie's husband. I'm the only one that can be Joel's dad. Like, if you're the only one that can, that tells you, like, this role is incredibly significant. And I don't think anyone shapes hope more in a child's mind and heart than the parent. And yes, the parent has an incredible privilege, an incredible opportunity to build up hope. And we do that, you know, in a number of ways. But notice your child because this is relational. Jesse Bradley [00:25:05]: It's not a formula. Yes. I think there's some best practices. I think the words you say, their soul, the affirmations you give, the connection you have, the way you listen, recognizing their strengths, all those things build hope. And that voice of a parent, I remember our very first child, and his name's Joel. When he was born, he was fussing and came out screaming and fussing, and the doctors could not get him to settle down. And then I walked over to where he was, and I just said, Joel, it's okay. And just like that, everything calmed down. Jesse Bradley [00:25:43]: He was fine going forward. And I realized in that moment the power of a parent's voice. So my encouragement to dads is just check your tone, check your words, check your affirmations, and realize that you're a hope leader. You're the one that's gonna lead your child to more hope and that you bring that in that role right there. It's a spot where no one else can fill. No one else has the same influence and be intentional. And it's worth really maybe reading for some. The Power of Second Thought is a book I wrote, but there's so many good resources. Jesse Bradley [00:26:19]: And I've got some other ones on jessebradley.org that talk about how to interact with children and build that hope. But my encouragement to you is start with your listening and start with your words. Start with your time. And when you invest the time, it's quality time, you choose your words that bring hope and you listen. And that combination right there, when a child feels heard and loved, and they have truth statements that they can hold on to that are solid, that's a hope foundation. It's so much more than a feeling, and you can help your child have a solid foundation of hope. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:54]: Now going beyond helping your child to find to have that solid foundation of hope, many times in a father's life, a man's life, there will be things that will rock that foundation, that will challenge them in many ways and may shatter the hope that they have, the hope that they have as a father, the hope that they have as a as a man. And what do you say to those people, The people that are listening and that are losing hope for themselves about what they're seeing in their own family, that what they're seeing in the relationships that they have, let's say, with their daughter. What are you saying to them to be able to either regain that hope or move back toward a pathway to be able to have hope in their life? Jesse Bradley [00:27:41]: So great insight, Christopher, because how we're doing is directly related to how we parent, and all of us, every day, every year, hopefully, we're growing, We're learning. We're healing. There's restoration. Personally, I think of 2 times during my life that were significant. 1 is going off to Dartmouth College and having success on the outside, but emptiness on the inside. And I'll tell you, you know, I was in an Ivy League school getting good grades, had a lot of friends. We won the Ivy League title for soccer, and I couldn't figure out what's happening on the inside. Why do I feel so empty? And I like to say there's the outside story. Jesse Bradley [00:28:17]: There's the inside story. People see the outside story like on social media. You post some pictures, they see you at work, they have a a sense of who you are. But the inside story, people might not know what's really going on. Now your child might have a sense of it. But for me, at that time with that emptiness, I took a class. It was introduction to world religions. I read the Bible for the first time. Jesse Bradley [00:28:38]: I started to learn about this is relationship, not religion. I was an atheist. In my family, Baskin Robbins, 31 flavors. We love each other. We're very close. A lot of different views and beliefs, and we have great conversations. But for me, I reached a point where I went from thinking there's no God out there to there's a personal God who loves me. And that is like an anchor for the soul. Jesse Bradley [00:29:00]: And all of a sudden I, on the inside, felt this joy I'd never felt. I felt like I'm not alone. Anxiety went down. Like, there were just so many shifts that happened through that. So faith is one thing for everyone to really consider. And, of course, as a parent, you might be thinking, what do you want to pass along to your children? They're gonna make their own decisions. But how do you want to introduce them to the spiritual life or to faith or talking about God? That's an important consideration as a parent, and you might think back to your own childhood. Again, maybe some things you saw and didn't like in church and you wanted them to stay away from those or some things were really valuable and foundational for you that you wanna pass along. Jesse Bradley [00:29:43]: And that can be a great gift for a child. Also for me, I played professional soccer and then there was tragedy. In Africa, I took a prescribed medication to prevent malaria, built up toxic levels in my system. I was fighting for my life for a year, and it took 10 years to fully recover. And during those dark moments, sometimes the greatest experiences can come out of those painful times. And for me, one of the shifts that I needed to make is that I had a performance based identity. And I was always thinking, what can I do better? How do I do it better? And my sense of worth and value was linked to my performance. And that wasn't challenged until I physically couldn't do anything. Jesse Bradley [00:30:24]: And at that point, I had to make a shift because if you're performance based identity, you're going to be on a roller coaster ride of pride and shame, inflated, deflated, And ultimately, you're gonna pass it on to your kids. And yes, it was positive in terms of my athletics and my academics. But when my parents got divorced at age 7, that was something that was so deep and painful and I couldn't control that I looked at life and thought, well, what can I do? And how can I do it better? And I didn't really enter in emotionally or grieve, but instead I tried to achieve. And you can't achieve everything in life. You can't if your identity is linked to achievement, it's a cruel trap. And I never realized that until my twenties. And that shift right there freed me to a grace based identity, and I'm already loved. And that was one that was so profound and hit on so many levels. Jesse Bradley [00:31:16]: And I highlight these things to say we're growing. And as an adult, I continue to grow. There's shifts I make with gratitude, where I'm intentional. I call it a gritty gratitude, giving thanks when you don't feel like it. You know, that's a habit. But it's an important one. I was someone who fought emotions, didn't wanna enter in. I thought grieving. Jesse Bradley [00:31:38]: Who wants to do that? That's not fun. And and I tried to avoid that. And maybe it's grown up in Midwest. Maybe it's my family. Maybe it's me personally. But I had to learn how to go there. And I'll tell you, maybe that's if you're listening to it and you're a dad, maybe that's something that is still new to you. But how important is that as a dad to identify how I'm feeling, to be able to talk about it, share it, work through it, receive healing and that process right there. Jesse Bradley [00:32:08]: See, if my focus or my approach to emotions is that you just keep them all away and you stuff them and you put them in the trunk. Well, then what am I gonna bring to my daughter when she has emotions? Like, am I gonna coach her to say, no, you can't feel those. And and I'm gonna try to solve all the time right away. And I'm gonna try to compartmentalize. And I'm gonna try to stuff it. It's like, no, that's gonna backfire. So I had to figure out how to work through my own emotions and not be in denial. And that might sound simple as a concept, but I'm telling you practically, I didn't know in prayer how to give my burdens to God. Jesse Bradley [00:32:49]: I didn't know how to let people in. I had a view of God that He's only interested in things that are going well. He doesn't want to come into my, you know, doubts or my despair. And when I started to let people in and and receive that love, and when I started to work through my emotions, it brought a level of health personally for me, but then also changed my parenting because now I can help my kids with the emotional side of life. And we call it big feelings. We all have big feelings. So what are you gonna do when you feel angry? How are you gonna handle it? I can't take my kids to where I don't go personally. So if I don't know how to work through anger, then how am I gonna guide my kids? If I don't know how to work through grief and sadness, how am I gonna guide my kids? And I think that combination of that transparency, when I'm transparent, vulnerable, like you said, with my kids, and they can see that, you know, in an age appropriate way, And then I can share how that affects me, but then how I respond and what's true about that, but then also how I walk through that. Jesse Bradley [00:33:56]: When I can do that with my kids, now that's gonna set them up for success, and they're gonna have that coaching in a way through their own emotions. And so as a parent, don't stop growing and then help your kids to walk through the intense challenges emotionally, spiritually and relationally. That to me, that section right there in life where it's emotional, it's relational, it's spiritual, that intersection, a lot of parents don't go there. And I can't tell you how valuable it is to go there. And I didn't have that a lot of times as a kid, but that's maybe create a passion for me as a parent. That's what I wanna help my kids navigate. That space right there. And so that's a longer answer, but I'm so glad you really touched on it because if we think parenting is just answers for a program, we've missed it. Jesse Bradley [00:34:53]: We are human beings and we are intellectual, emotional, relational, spiritual. And the more of that fullness that comes in personally as you grow and then you connect with your kids and you share that together, that's the richness of life right there and the richness of parenting. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:11]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where we ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Jesse Bradley [00:35:18]: Right on. Let's go. Christopher, I like the way you do this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:21]: In one word, what is fatherhood? Jesse Bradley [00:35:23]: It's love because I don't think there's anything greater in this world. I don't think there's a close second. It's love. And what they need more than anything is your love. Yes. Love does include truth. Love has setting good limits and boundaries and accountability and all that. But deep down, does your child know that they are loved and how loved they are? There's something about kids that pick up on that. Jesse Bradley [00:35:46]: And if they feel second rate, they just know where love's coming from. And that's the most important thing you can bring, authentic love. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:54]: Now when was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Jesse Bradley [00:35:59]: Wow. I guess in some ways I feel like this is a marathon. And so it's too early to celebrate because I'm going to be her dad all my days. And I don't think being a parent stops at age 18. I mean, for some kids, they certainly want more and need more beyond that. But what does success look like? How do I measure that? That's a great question. And that's a deep question. I've said before in this conversation that she enjoys spending time with me. Jesse Bradley [00:36:29]: She feels a deep connection with me. She also can talk about anything with me. Those are maybe milestones. Those are things to celebrate. And I've heard it said this way. Here's the road trip test. Would you like to get in the car and take a road trip across the country and then come back with someone? And I would say this, I think both my daughter and myself, if we said, should we do a road trip across the country together? We both said, like, yeah, let's do it. And that enjoyment of each other, I can just see that look in her eyes. Jesse Bradley [00:37:05]: It's just like that endearing tone. She's like, Oh, dad. We I do dad jokes and it's a fine line between dad jokes and dud jokes. But just that in her voice, that tenderness, that look in her eye, that fun we have together, and we both just really enjoy each other. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:21]: Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad? Jesse Bradley [00:37:26]: Well, that's a great question too. We should almost include them and bring them in for that one. It might embarrass me. There's a phrase, yum, you're embarrassing me, and that's playful. But it's like, if I ever embarrassed them, they can just say yum and we don't have to give you a long discussion. You know, it's just yum. So they might have some funny ones with me. My daughter likes to poke fun. Jesse Bradley [00:37:47]: Like, I like Greek yogurt, and she thinks it's the worst smell in the world. So, you know, so you might say dad likes Greek yogurt. So point to some of the idiosyncrasies. I'm bald, so I probably wear, you know, a hat more often and to stay warm. But I think my daughter would say that I'm passionate about Jesus. That the ultimate compliment, I'm thinking back of the ultimate compliment is is she would say, dad, I wanna marry someone just like you. You know? Dad, I wanna find someone just like you. And so I think she feels like I'm a good conversationalist. Jesse Bradley [00:38:20]: There's the overall how I treat people and my faith and that I'm the same person, whether I'm at home and no one's around or, you know, I'm out in public. I think those are the things she might highlight. But goofball. I'm probably a goofball more at home than I am professionally. So she enjoys that side of it. And, yeah. When she's thinking I wanna date or marry someone that's like you, dad. It's like, what better, you know? Could could you celebrate than that? So, sports, playful, goofy, fun to talk to, loves people, that kind of stuff. Jesse Bradley [00:38:56]: That's probably what she'd say. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:57]: Now who inspires you to be a better dad? Jesse Bradley [00:39:00]: Overall, I think it starts with me. I say God, my heavenly father, and then, like, how does he treat me? And that really becomes the basis of how I treat other people. Like, God's forgiving. God's patient. God's kind. And I I know there's mentors, and I've had a lot of them. Seen it. My one guy, Doug, it was like I remember thinking, okay, watch him interact with his kids. Jesse Bradley [00:39:25]: Like, he loves them so incredibly much. It was Saturdays were pancake Saturdays with dad. And, you know, he was just one of those guys that without even trying it, it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna mentor you here. But I saw how demanding his work was. And then I saw what he's like at home. And the people that inspire me most are the ones that are doing it behind the scenes when no one's looking, they're doing it. No, one's covering their story. They're doing it and they're heroes. Jesse Bradley [00:39:53]: And they're doing it consistent. They're doing it on a daily basis. They're doing it in a sacrificial way. They're doing it in a genuine way, and they know how important parenting is. They know how important their kids are. And I'm constantly challenged by that because my work is demanding, and I gotta be careful not to bring leftovers home. And it's like I've given all my best at work, and now I'm just, well, dad doesn't have much left. That's easy for me to fall into that trap. Jesse Bradley [00:40:18]: But it's the dads that I've gotten a glimpse of behind the scenes. And no one else really sees it. And it's not the spectacular. It's more, again, of the consistent. And they show up the same way, non anxious presence. They're having fun with their kids. They've created some ways to make memories together. Those are the ones, and I don't have that down. Jesse Bradley [00:40:42]: I miss out on opportunities. I'll just say that, and then I'm aware of those. So I have to really be intentional. Now Now Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:59]: you've given a lot of piece of advice today, a lot of things for all of us to think about as fathers and how we find hope in our worlds around us, how we instill that hope to our kids. But just in general, the experiences that you've had and things that have worked and things that you've been challenged with. As you think about dads out there, all dads that that are out there, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every father? Jesse Bradley [00:41:22]: On the one hand, I would say don't try to be too controlling. And all my kids have been very different than me. And I realized early on, if I try to make them just like me or my dreams for them, my goals for them, it's just not I was up at about 2 o'clock with 1 of them talking about online business because they're so motivated to try to figure all that out. Like, I personally don't have any interest in online business. But rather than try to put a ton of limits and try to redirect or try to say this isn't as good, like, you've got to get excited about what they're excited about in the way that they're bent, their personality, their passion, their talents, like don't try to over control that. So here's, I guess, a summary. Tender and tough. Know when to be tender. Jesse Bradley [00:42:12]: Know when to be tough. And I find that the dads that are trying to be over controlling, it's like on the sidelines. It's embarrassing how they're talking to the referee, like, after the games, like, what they say to their kids. Like, I almost feel like they're living vicariously. Does the kid even enjoy that sport? It's like, no, no, no. The tough, being tough as a dad is not controlling your kids. You've gotta loosen up that grip and let them be who they're designed to be. I like to say, ultimately, my kids are not mine, they're gods, and that helps actually bring freedom that I don't have to try to call all the shots in their lives. Jesse Bradley [00:42:47]: But instead, how do I set them up for success? And then the tenderness. There's gonna be some really incredibly important times to be tender, and the kids are gonna need it. And if you're always strong and harsh with them, they're not gonna grow and develop. They're gonna resent you. So when to be tough, when to be tender, that figuring that out right there is incredibly important. And I would say just notice during the week, like there might be some times when you're way too soft and lenient. You kinda know your own bent. Right? And if you just let them have endless devices, I mean, that's easy for me sometimes hey, let's talk about physical activity. Jesse Bradley [00:43:30]: Let's talk about exercise. Let's drop hey, let's talk about physical activity. Let's talk about exercise. Let's drop that phone and let's go do it. So tender and tough, my encouragement is just to notice your patterns, which you naturally do. And there's probably some areas where you're either being tender or tough when you should be the opposite. And don't just do what comes natural. Don't just do what your parents did. Jesse Bradley [00:43:56]: You've got to make some shifts so that tender and tough are played out really well. And that, I think, is is really key. Another combination is honest and humble. Be honest and be humble with the kids. Bring love and bring truth. That combination. These are fruitful as parents. When you're honest and humble, when you bring the truth in love, when you know when to be tender, when to be tough, those are the things that I kinda come back to and just keep checking all the time. Jesse Bradley [00:44:26]: How am I doing in these areas? And that's what helps me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:30]: Well, Jesse, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here, for sharing your story. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go? Jesse Bradley [00:44:36]: The website, jessebradley.org, a lot of parenting resources there. So you can check that out. They're all free. And then on social media, Jesse j Bradley, love to connect with anybody, hear how you're doing, and let's keep learning together. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:48]: Again, Jesse, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing the highs, the lows, and everything in between, and I wish you all the best. Jesse Bradley [00:44:57]: Christopher, you love dads and you love daughters, and it shows. We appreciate it. You are giving so much to us. So keep up the good work. Don't slow down. And thank you for the community that you continue to build. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:10]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and power daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:46:08]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.  

The Fatherhood Insider: A Gateway to Enhanced Paternal Engagement Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes fathers to explore the Fatherhood Insider, a hub designed for paternal growth. Emphasizing the importance of active fatherhood, he encourages dads to utilize resources such as course libraries, forums, and expert advice with the singular goal of honing their fathering skills. Joe Lee's Remarkable Transition: From Monotony to Spontaneity Guest Joe Lee, a dedicated father, discusses his structured life and the unique activities he enjoys with his daughter. Be it practicing Taekwondo, computer learning sessions, or ice skating adventures, Joe underscores the essence of breaking routine and imbuing life with spontaneous moments. An Inspirational Journey from an Entrepreneur to Author Joe Lee shares his motivations for penning 'Ripping Off the Mask From Hustler Entertainer to CEO' and his entrepreneurial evolution. Reflecting on the empowering experiences that guided him to authorship, Joe underlines the process of building a support network and navigating the responsibilities of single fatherhood. Fatherhood's Complex Layers in Modern Society As a vigilant single father, Joe addresses the pressing fears and challenges in raising a daughter in today's society. He advocates for attentiveness, support, and open communication as the pillars of a father-daughter relationship. With a fine balance between professional life and parenting duties, Joe strives to provide structure, support, and valuable life insights for his daughter. A Vision of Fatherhood: Protecting and Teaching the Next Generation Envisioning his role as a protector and teacher, Joe Lee hopes to instill resilience and strength in his daughter. He emphasizes the value of fathers being present and actively involved—not just in the big moments, but also in the everyday tasks, like doing their daughters' hair. As a 'girl dad,' his commitment to nurturing and mentoring his daughter shines as a beacon for other fathers who listen to 'Dads with Daughters   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]: Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]: Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week I love being able to sit down, talk to you, help you, and work with you as you go through this journey that you're on in raising your daughters. I know I've been on the same journey. I'm still on that journey. I'll always be on that journey. Once you're a father, you're always a father. And what's so important is that you never give up. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: You keep moving and you keep working at it because there's gonna be times where it's gonna be hard. There's gonna be times where it's gonna go smoothly, but there is always opportunities to learn, to grow and to be even better. So that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to be the best dad that you can be to help you to connect and engage with your daughters. And that's why I love being able to have these conversations with you every week. I also love being able to bring you different dads, different dads that are doing fatherhood in different ways and bringing you people that have, are from every walk of life, fathers, mothers, other individuals with resources that are gonna help you to be that engaged father that you wanna be. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Joe Lee is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: And Joe is a father of a daughter. He's got a 6 year old daughter at home. We're gonna talk about his journey that he has had thus far with his own daughter, and I'm really excited to have him here. Joe, thanks so much for being here today. Joe Lee [00:01:48]: Thank you, Chris. I appreciate being a part of the show and being on here. The way that you guys, have come along, I think I was set at the beginning stages of that when you started the organization and group on Facebook. So it's a pleasure being here and being a dad myself for the last 6 years. I've always helped other folks with their trials and tribulations prior to me becoming a dad. So it was one of the reasons why I joined your group back then. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: So first and foremost, what I love to do is I love turning the clock back in time. So let's go all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head? Joe Lee [00:02:20]: Oh, man. I I said, you know, of all people, why, you know, why do I hit the girl? Right? And but I smiled all the time. I smiled all the time. Like any other father, you wanna have that boy, But, you know, it's been a pleasure, and I see that I've inspired a lot of men when I first started this journey and how I used to talk about her coming into this world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:41]: So as you think back to the time that you've had with your daughter thus far, I know that when I talk to dads about being a father to a daughter, many people tell me that there's some fear that goes along with it. What's been your biggest fear in raising a daughter in today's society? Joe Lee [00:02:56]: So there's a couple things, to be honest with you, Chris. 1, if I think about my life coming out of New Orleans and the fact of even just raising a kid today, I don't think it's scary. I think it's a matter of being afraid. What could possibly happen? And I say that because I've often been asked and had conversations with dads or women, all of the same. And I talk about the days when we used to walk around the neighborhood at 6, 7, 8 years old. We 2, 3, 10, 15 miles away from home. Today, that's the fear factor. You can't do that anymore. Joe Lee [00:03:26]: Predators will take your daughter or son out of your backyard and draw daylight. It doesn't even matter. That's one of the biggest things, and I think she's taught me a lot more too just in general about life as I've gotten back, as I've always been into the health and fitness side of the house, playing semi pro football, bodybuilding, etcetera, this late stage in the game for me and and by the way, I'll be 53 next week, Chris, just to share a little bit with you. So I still keep myself healthy. But working with her in Taekwondo has, gotten me back into stretching. It has gotten me close to God because she's in private school, and every week she has homework to read a, a verse from the Bible. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:03]: Now raising kids is never easy. Raising daughters is not always easy as well. What's been the hardest part for you being a father to a daughter? Joe Lee [00:04:12]: It's making sure that I'm being attentive. Right? It's making sure that I am supportive, of a female, for 1. I am actively listening, and I'm not just being a dictator because I'm her father, but I'm also fostering open communication. I think it involves setting a positive example that I am empathetic to what she's going through, and I'm finding ways to be resilient to teach her to be resilient. My daughter jumped onto a computer right at the age of 4 months, and she literally crawled over into my lap and was just curious about it. And, you know, she didn't peck on the keyboard. She tried to mimic everything that I was doing, and I'm like, yes. She has that look in her eyes. Joe Lee [00:04:48]: So from there, that helped me with being a father to a female and what I have seen in the prior 15 years of women now becoming more evolved in the corporate America side of things. So it only meant sense for me to think about, hey, how do I best guide my daughter? Because she's gonna need more than just being a female. She's gonna need more than just going to school and to be able to survive out here in this world of, corporate America and in life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:19]: Now you are busy. You have a lot of things going on. You're doing a lot of different things. And you're trying to also be that engaged dad that you wanna be. Talk to me about balance and how you've found balance in the things that you're trying to do professionally, but also in who you want to be personally for your daughter. Joe Lee [00:05:38]: Yes. So one thing, I have 2 calendars. I manage calendars. Where most people, years before me, may have missed Christmas or some specific holiday or birthday around a making a business deal, I do my best to manage my schedule around her schedule and not the other way around. So just like I have her in Tae kwon which is generally Mondays Tuesdays and every other weekend, in my business calendar that's lined side by side, I plan my business days around her schedule. And that's been a major, major benefactor to me to make sure that we can get what she needs to get and she can get the time with me. As far as balance wise, yes. And where she is today with her academics in a private school that she's in right now, it's great because she's now being challenged. Joe Lee [00:06:26]: The preschool, kindergarten, I was often told, and even her mom was told, your daughter's gonna be something. She's very smart. She's very diligent. And I know with myself, I've been the one that put a lot of that sergeant slaughter, get it done, be detailed because that's how I am in my life. And that has helped me provide that balance with her. So from TaeKwonDo, we come in, we get our structure to study, we get bedtime. I keep her schedule the same as much as possible, but there are times when I do random with her. And then on the weekends, when I have her for longer periods because it's not a school night, yes, that's all broken up. Joe Lee [00:07:03]: She gets that play time in. We get regular television time in. She gets 30 to 45 minutes on her tablet of free time when we have to. When we ride in the car, I make games out of her homework. So for instance, her spelling words, I randomly joke around with her and I said, you can't beat me. I can spell better than you can. Right? So we start playing these games in the car when we're riding. So I balance it all out. Joe Lee [00:07:29]: And, again, the biggest part is is just being spontaneous sometimes. Yes. I'm very structured. Yes. I'm very attention to detailed 90% of the time, but you have to break up the monotony. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: You definitely have to break up the monotony because at times it it does definitely it definitely can overtake you and you have to be able to be engaged with your daughter. How do you find that you are able to connect best with your daughter and what's been the favorite thing that you and your daughter like to share together? Joe Lee [00:08:03]: So I'll answer the second question first. Sharing something together, we do share the taekwondo thing together. We share going to the gym together. She likes go to the playground. But more importantly, when I'm in here doing, exercise in the house, she's right there too, you know, for the average man who can't do push ups on his knuckles. She can do 15 to 20 push ups on her knuckles right now. So that's that's one thing. The second thing is chores. Joe Lee [00:08:24]: When I say it's time to clean up, you know, she's happy to do chores. Ever since she was 2, she has been about doing her chores. Even the preschool days at at preschool, she would fix her little cot and she would stand next to it. And the teachers had often told me that. So those are some of the things. But going to the gym and then sometimes we go to the park. Right? She likes to skate too as well. So we'll in the wintertime, we'll go ice skating. Joe Lee [00:08:48]: So at least twice, during the year. And if we can make it a 3rd time, we'll go a 3rd time. But more, you know, outside of that, she's a barrel of I wanna learn. She has a bunch of that inside of her, and it's her computer. We sit here on our computer side by side. Some nights, I'm working to try to get contracts done. I've set her up to where she can complete her homework, and we're sitting side by side. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:08]: Now I know that just recently you wrote a new book called ripping off the mask from hustler entertainer to CEO. And I guess first and foremost, talk to me about what made you choose to take the time, the effort to write this book, And what are you hoping that people are taking out of the book itself? Joe Lee [00:09:30]: So the main subtitle probably says it all, which is dedicated to succeed against all odds. Born and raised in New Orleans in the early seventies and survived, and I will say survived New Orleans from the 19 eighties to the 19 nineties when I decided to leave in 1991. And all through my life, I have been a hustler. I have had that hustler mentality, which is an enterprising and entrepreneurial mindset and spirit, which is the true definition of what a hustler is. Most people see that term or see that word, and they think from the streets. And while I came from the streets and were born and raised from the streets in New Orleans, which was one of the worst places to live in the 19 nineties. And I left there in 1991. And in 1994, it became the murder capital of the world. Joe Lee [00:10:17]: So with that, the inspiration just came from my lifestyle of helping people, seeing roadblocks that I say that there's a problem to this. We've gotta get up. We've gotta be active. You can change your story. You don't have to travel someone else's journey. Right? It's not the destination that inspires people. It's the journey that inspires everyone. So with that, I've always said, as far back as I could see my dark past is how clear I wanna see my future. Joe Lee [00:10:49]: So I got up and I did that. I became a chameleon in life to see different things in corporate, see different things in the way that I came up, and I said no more. And I'm gonna take control of my life, and that's what you have to do. And so that inspiration was there a long time ago. And so many people along the way say, you need to write a book that got that were able to know me on a personal level and professional level that just said, hey, man. There's something you need to get out. You need to let this out. And in 2016, one of my employees had recommended me to be nominated to do an interview on this, show called Hatch in the city of Aegean Beach. Joe Lee [00:11:30]: And so it was a bunch of business owners, and they were all evolving. And at the time, I said, okay. Alright. I got nominated. And when I start hearing people's stories and I didn't have anything prepared, Chris. I just spoke. And that was the first time that parts of me unlocked that box and got deep into that that several of the people in the room were in tears. And so from there, Chris, I had been thinking about it, and people said, hey. Joe Lee [00:12:02]: You need to do it. And I just I held it off for so long. It just just bit my tongue on that because I'd never wanted to I guess I was just feeling that I didn't have to use my past to succeed in life. And many times along the way, people said, Joe, it's not what you're doing. You need to think about that differently. You accomplished a whole lot, and you don't even know it yet. And so another business owner, a female, by the way, she's been in the same industry, IT, cybersecurity field. Just 2 years ago or two and a half years ago, she said, Joe, you need to write your book. Joe Lee [00:12:33]: I'm gonna hold you accountable. You're gonna write this book. I've known you for a while now. There's some stuff you need to get out. You need to talk because you can pull people together. You can bridge relationships, but something has driven you because you're constantly working. And so that's where it came from. That was the last straw. Joe Lee [00:12:50]: And finally, one day, I just sat down and start writing some stuff. And in here, you know, she'd be like, Joe, I'm gonna pair you with this publisher. And I went back and forth back and forth for about a month or 2, and then finally, I pulled the trigger. And so it took me a year to pull it all together, to be honest with you. Generally, they say you can write a book in about 8, 9, 12 weeks. But it has taken me a year to pull it together, and I finally got it done. And it just went to formatting as of last week. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:12]: Well, congratulations. I know as an author myself, how long it takes. And I would say 8 weeks is pretty quick depending on how long the book is. Joe Lee [00:13:20]: Well, depending on how busy you are too. Right? And that's what I said to my publisher. I said, hey, you're missing something here. I own a company. I can't just sit down and write a book. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:28]: Now, one of the chapters in the book is all about being a girl dad and talking about being a father itself. So I've got a couple of questions after looking through what you've been writing there. So as you think back on your pre fatherhood self, what aspects of your life and identity surprised you the most as you embrace the role of father, particularly to a daughter? Joe Lee [00:13:50]: So that goes that's gonna roll right into the chapter probably before that. If we step back, I took on many roles in life. Right? I took on many roles. And as this economy and world of life has expanded with women growing in culture and in business, I was in the entertainment business. And so for me to be a girl that, again, friends of mine, old past friends of mine was like, I heard you're a girl dad. I heard you're a hands on girl dad. I heard you're doing hair and doing pedicures of all people. Not you, Joe. Joe Lee [00:14:24]: Jolie, girl dad. So, you know, with that, I cannot say that I've ever been disrespectful or physically abused or mentally abused any female that I've ever encountered. Has there been a reaction to something? Yes, possibly. Who knows? But I have never purposely done that. So for me, owning up to the responsibilities and my role as a father, again, it goes back to making sure that I'm giving her what she needs emotionally, being a mentor to her, being a protector, teaching her the ways and means of being a girl as well with the other side of it that comes from her mother, though we're, you know, we're shared households, not in shared households. And so being a dad is really playing that role of an active role model in her life, contributing to her growth, contributing to her development, and her well-being. So just like I can see things on the street when I step out my door every day or have a gauge of a potential accident that might happen if I go right or left. I'm teaching her those things. Joe Lee [00:15:31]: I've been teaching her those things. I'm teaching her the things that she is going to need to succeed in any career that she desires her heart to take in in corporate America and in life. So it also involves just fathering and fostering a strong and positive connection with her. So I nurture her, and I have nurtured her to this day. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]: Now you just talked about that you are going through fatherhood as a single dad. Could you elaborate a little bit more on the challenges that you faced while navigating single fatherhood, especially during custody battles and how these challenges shaped your overall journey. Joe Lee [00:16:07]: With that, that came to me. It's like being a new person to a job you've never done before. And you if somebody's giving you the opportunity and you're just gonna take it head on and you're gonna learn, you're going to gather all the information, you're gonna do some research and things of that nature. I think with my situation, one thing that helped me out, Chris, was I spent 10 years in law. I worked my way up from the mailroom to being a case clerk and research assistant. So it kinda gave me the mentality and mindset to understand And so in the very beginning stages of that, again, I tried to take the proactive role. And me being a father and what I have seen in the past from other fathers and how the system negatively impact them, I took the approach of filing for custody immediately. So I filed for 5050 custody because in my mind and in my heart, I believe in shared custody. Joe Lee [00:17:07]: And though many relationships do not work out, you still should be able to garner a relationship between parents that does not affect the child and do what's in the best interest of the child, quote, unquote, how that term is overly unused. So I think we need to do that. Every parent has a shared obligation. Every parent has a monetary obligation, and that's the thing I had to focus on. And so while in the beginning, there were some trials and tribulations where where things were kinda bad. Right? And I just had to know, hey, Jodice, what you need to do to manage yourself. Right? You had to set your boundaries. You had to document what you needed to document. Joe Lee [00:17:50]: You need to keep yourself in line. You need to be clear on what you're stating in messages. And so that's how I I navigated my battle or high conflict at times or, you know, this custody battle in general. The second thing is is that the system to me is flawed for two reasons that I'm finding. 1, it's still written on the old principles of 50, 60 years ago, where a lot of it did favor more of the woman. And now we also have the evolution well, I'm not gonna say the evolution of attorneys, but we have a good and fine line of good attorneys and bad attorneys. There are attorneys that will take your money and say that they're gonna do something and don't do what they're gonna say. There are attorneys that will be your advocate. Joe Lee [00:18:36]: They are going to speak out in court for you. They are going to work with you, you know? The third thing about the attorneys that I can say is that you're you're gonna go through 1 or 2 or maybe 3, unless you've done enough research that you think you found the right one to support you. Unfortunately, for me, I had to go through 2 or 3 to find the one that I currently have today. And the other part about that is going back to some of my first points was I knew how to represent and present myself to my attorney. There were things that I did in my process to set my attorney up to understand who I am, who I was, and where I'm at today. The information that I gave him had to be clear, concise in order. So I created a template that also mapped back to what is called the 10 factors of child custody. That's in every state. Joe Lee [00:19:28]: So my journals and the writing that I gave him and prepared for him mapped to those, factors as well. And that journal was a part of another tool that I utilized is a communication app. There are different versions out there. I have one that I use today, you know, and I sometimes recommend that to dads if they contact me. But I think it's, you know, it's for everyone at the end of the day. And so that those are some of the things that I did to kinda navigate my custody battle. Today, we've been to court maybe several times, but more importantly, the judges have seen the evidence. The judges have said, I'm not changing this order. Joe Lee [00:20:03]: The judges have said, we're gonna keep this 5050 in place. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:06]: So how important has it been to build a support network for yourself, especially during those moments of uncertainty and emotional hurdles? And what advice would you say that you have for other single parents facing similar situations? Joe Lee [00:20:19]: Yes. So one, to build a network, I involved my daughter with me on things that I could, whether it was social events, whether it was events that was kid friendly, and she was always there from my business world and from my personal world. My friends and colleagues have been there through it all, and some of them are people that I provided advice to or recommendations to or suggestions on a custody matter at times when I before I became a father. So that network was developed pretty quickly, And at the same time, I even still took from all of them because these were people who had been in custody matters or had kids that, you know, are still married, and that provided me advice. So that was one thing. And the other part of it was just making sure that I can provide valuable lessons. I think that's what fathers have to do as well and follow the order. Follow what the order says at the end of the day, and that can go out to everyone. Joe Lee [00:21:26]: In my book, I don't just specifically speak about fathers. I speak from a father's perspective because the world knows how things have been, slighted to the other parent. But if I could provide some advice to anyone, it would be to have patience, not be selfishness, and have the ability to prioritize needs over our own at the end of the day. This will instill the deep sense of responsibility. This will encourage the growth. Parenthood, I think, often teaches us resiliency. It's adaptability. It's the importance of fostering and nurturing an environment that's great for growth. Joe Lee [00:22:06]: And I keep saying growth because they are at a level when they're so young right now. They will suck up anything that you teach them, anything that you give them. But if you don't give it to them, they will never get there. Then if you don't have a repeatable process, it will not be retained. Repeatable, retain. Repeatable, retain. And we have to continue doing that, and that's one thing I do with my daughter as well. 1 of the fathers in our group reached out and say, hey, Joe. Joe Lee [00:22:35]: You know, about the taekwondo. I don't know if you saw that lately, but, a father reached back out to me. I have my daughter in taekwondo, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. What do you do differently? Or or what are you doing with your daughter? And I just laid it right out in very concise format and just say, I'm doing a, b, c, and d. Most importantly, they go to Taekwondo for 30 to 45 minutes. You need to do that again and again and again during the days that you have your child. And it doesn't have to be a long time. On the weekends, me and my daughter probably get in about 2 hours of taekwondo, if not 4, 2 day 2 hours each day on the weekend, and that's broken up. Joe Lee [00:23:11]: It's broken up. And, again, I make it fun. The last thing as a piece of advice, I would just say I'm constantly and constantly practicing insights and giving her insights about the complexities of human relationships, the profound impact that one person's action can have on another person's well-being. Overall, being a dad, it's a continuous journey of learning and self discovery. And in most cases, men, you know, they walk away with their backs broken at in the end, but we're still here. We're still surviving because, you know, we have to be that protector. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:49]: So as you look ahead, what aspirations do you have for your daughter? And how do you envision your role as a father being a guiding force for her life as she grows and pursues her dreams? Joe Lee [00:24:03]: And so one thing I do is I constantly encourage her. 2, since the age of 3a half, 4, she has said, I wanna be a doctor. And to this day, she's 6. I've tried to skew that. I've said, hey. You should get into computers. But at most, the fact that she still loves computers, but she still says she wants to be a doctor. I've tried to skew her by saying, why don't you be a dentist? Here, let's take these dentist toys. Joe Lee [00:24:27]: Let's play around and just to try to see where her head really is right at this young age. So far, she has been committed to saying she wants to be a doctor. So with that, I foster doctor games, doctor little commercials or YouTube videos from time to time, and we sit and talk about some things on that side of it. I also embrace saying that, hey. You are a winner. No matter what you do or whatever loss you have in life or whatever failure that you endured because you did something and you were not the victor, I say, you have to think that you are a winner. A winner never quits on themselves. And that's what I tell her. Joe Lee [00:25:06]: She has been in 3 tournaments thus far. She has won 4 medals in 2 tournaments. And in her last tournament, she didn't win any. And I say, hey. You're standing up there, and I gave her what it looked like. We lost at the end of the day. So she understand, and now she's embraced that at the age of 6 that, hey. I can't win everything. Joe Lee [00:25:23]: And when we got home and even in the car, in the journey, I talked to her about, hey, we've gotta work hard at everything we do. Okay? We've gotta be stronger. We just gotta get better. I say, you knew it. You just lost focus a little bit. So those are some of the things that I see for her in her future. And if she wants to be a doctor, I'm gonna support that. If she wants to be a technologist or some cyber engineer, I'm gonna support that. Joe Lee [00:25:44]: Doesn't matter what she decides she wants to do. And, you know, more importantly, whatever she decides she wants to identify, I know there's a lot of identifiers out here today. He, she, her, him, that type of thing. So I'm gonna support her, and I'm gonna give her as much guidance as I can about life and what I've learned in coming up and building my road, my journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]: Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Joe Lee [00:26:11]: Sure. It sounds like you got a little curve ball here, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:15]: Now in one word, what is fatherhood? Joe Lee [00:26:17]: Resilience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:18]: When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter? Joe Lee [00:26:22]: When she was in kindergarten. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:23]: Now if I was to talk to your daughter, how would she describe you as a dad? Joe Lee [00:26:27]: Oh, wow. That's a good question. That has changed. I've asked her that question a couple of times. She'd probably tell you things about what I do for her or probably tell you things of what I teach her. So, ultimately, she would probably describe me as a teacher if you had to put all those things together because I asked the question and sometimes she says, well, you teach me this, you teach me that, you buy me this, you buy me that. So I think that's what it would be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:55]: And as you think, let's say, 10, 15 years down the road, how do you want her to describe you then? Joe Lee [00:27:00]: The man in her life that taught her how to attack the world just to be strong and live in this world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:08]: Who inspires you to be a better dad? Joe Lee [00:27:09]: You know, one of my uncles that passed, one of my mother's brother had passed in about 2019. I didn't grow up with a father. My father was killed before I was born. And so I had a mother that raised 2 kids that were they're a year apart coming up in New Orleans. My uncle has always been supportive of everything I have done from the time he was summoned by my mother to pull me out of New Orleans. And he stepped into a situation to step kids, never looked back, cherished those kids today who are my cousins. And he's always treated me like a son. And he's tried to guide me. Joe Lee [00:27:45]: He didn't shun me for my bad mistakes along the way, and that's inspiring enough to me. So I would say my uncle Roosevelt Lee. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:53]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that you have learned along the way so far in your own parenting journey. As we finish up today, anything about all dads that are out there, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad? Joe Lee [00:28:05]: I would just say, if you fall, Serena, high conflict custody battle. And even if you're not, be present, be a part of it. Learn how to do the hair, fellas. Go to my YouTube channel. Learn how to do the hair. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:19]: Now if people wanna find out more about the book, more about you, where should they go? Joe Lee [00:28:24]: Right now, there's a posting on my Facebook page. You can find me on there, a couple of different ways. You can find me on there by jlgov. That's jl, g as in George, o as in Oscar, v as in Victor. Right now, my personal Facebook page, which is Jolie, Virginia Beach. You could could find me in Virginia Beach. Or thirdly, we are going to be putting out the information in the next couple days of where that would be. Chris, I will definitely send you a link to that as my publisher is you know, we're behind the curve on that right now, and we're trying to release by the end of the month, since we're not gonna make the deadline for my birthday, which is next week. Joe Lee [00:28:58]: So those are the two places that you could find information about the book, but the website and everything is being worked on right now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:03]: Well, Joe, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own story, and I wish you all the best. Joe Lee [00:29:09]: No, Chris. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again. It's been great connecting with you guys. And I'll close with saying, fathers, when you compete out here in the courtroom, outside in the business. And what that I mean by that is just be smart about what you do, be articulate, carry yourself in the best light. Joe Lee [00:29:37]: Thank you, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:38]: If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:30]: All geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:36]: We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Them. Be the best dad you can be.

Transition as Growth: Vaughn's Bold Leaps from Athletics to Student Services In the heartwarming and inspiring latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field podcast we welcomed Dr. Vaughn Calhoun, an esteemed academic leader, recounted his transformative journey from a student athlete with a career-ending injury to a beacon for change in higher education.  Engineering Identity Post-Injury Calhoun began by sharing the immediate consequences of his injury and the impact it had on his self-image and life trajectory. He emphasized the importance of identity reconstruction, an experience that propelled him from a series of unfulfilling jobs to the realization that he needed to embrace authentic studenthood—a leap he bravely took by pursuing a master's degree far from the world of sports he knew. Encounters That Changed His Path One of the most pivotal moments in Calhoun's life was an encounter with a stranger at Borders bookstore who saw in him a potential future as a university athletic director. This set him on a path to his doctorate, with a determined goal to understand and improve collegiate athletics from an administrative perspective. Mentorship and Its Lasting Impact Calhoun credited much of his success to the mentors he encountered, specifically highlighting an inviting university president who believed in him and guided his professional growth. This president showed Calhoun how to harness vulnerability and understanding, which in turn helped him carve out his niche in student affairs. The Student at Heart of the Leader With a robust background in public policy and the professoriate, Calhoun brought humility and an unwavering focus on student success to his administrative roles. His approach has always been about being receptive to student needs and advocating for their growth and success, a principle he implemented in his roles at various educational institutions. Innovation and Adaptation Furthermore, Calhoun discussed the rise of AI in education and the urgent need for educators to integrate new technologies. Adaptation, he stressed, is not only inevitable but essential for student support and success, highlighting the importance of ethical considerations in the digital age. Embracing the Journey Closing the episode, Calhoun imparted advice to student affairs professionals undergoing transitions, encouraging them to focus on the process and seek mentorship. He suggests that staying authentic, seeking challenging experiences, and forming a supportive network are keys to personal and professional development.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to our next episode of student affairs voices from the field. Today, we sat down with doctor Vaughn Calhoun live and in person at the NASPA annual conference in March 2024, Seattle, Washington. Doctor Calhoun serves as the assistant vice president of student services and dean of Center For Academic Success at Seton Hall University in South Orange, New Jersey. He's been featured on a number of national platforms, including platforms, including Fortune Magazine, Education Edition, The Chronicle of Higher Ed, Inside Higher Ed, Huffington Post, NASPA Policy Briefs, and the Student Affairs Now podcast. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:54]: A thought leader and commentator on issues related to the changing landscape of higher ed, doctor Calhoun believes critical dialogue is necessary to equip students for the future of work, which means cultivating adaptive learners who can thrive in a world that is increasingly volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Doctor Calhoun's leadership career spans colleges and universities in the northeast from public, private, urban, suburban, small and large institutions with enrollments from 2,000 to more than 20,000 students. This experience includes public research universities, small private liberal arts, midsize Catholic universities to a predominantly online state university. Doctor Calhoun is a graduate of Rutgers University where he earned his bachelor's of science while also participating as a full scholarship student athlete on the football team. He also earned his master's of public policy and administration from Cal State Long Beach and a doctorate of education from Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts. Von, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:01:46]: Hello. How's it going? Thank you for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:48]: It's such a joy for me to be able to meet with guests in person because normally we're across time zones and on a Zoom box and things like that. So I really appreciate you taking time out of your conference to connect with us. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:01:59]: Absolutely. Happy to share anything and answer anything. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]: In our theme of transitions, when we got your story for casting, we just looked at it and went, we really wanna talk to you. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:07]: Okay. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:07]: Because your story, I think, is kind of unique in the world of student affairs, but also unique in that you've kind of been in a lot of different spaces before figuring out that your space, your professional purpose is here. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:20]: Absolutely. It took me a while. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:21]: So we know you're at Seton Hall now. We always like to know how you got to that seat, but we'd love for you to trace that journey through the beginning of sport. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:29]: Wow. No. That's just fantastic question. And, you know, my journey, it's something that I could not have mapped out. Yep. It it was something that really took shape while I was a student athlete. I played football at Rutgers. And in my 1st year at Rutgers, I blew my knee out. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:45]: And that was one of those things that you always think that happens to somebody else. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:50]: Yeah. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:50]: But when it happens to you, it's kinda like, oh my god. Like, it's happening. And not long after that, my head coach, he was fired. So these 2 big life moment events happened within 3 or 4 months of each other. And while I was at Rutgers, to compound that, at least at the time, I was steered into a major because it was athletic friendly. And that set me up on a course for not necessarily focusing as much as I probably should have on academics. And once I finished at Rutgers, I always tell people I graduated there, but I wasn't necessarily educated there. And that's a huge difference. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:03:22]: And it took me a while to kind of contextualize, well, what happened to me? And it wasn't until I read the book, The 40,000,000 Dollar Slave, The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete, that really put it into context for me. And in particular, this book, it talks about the conveyor belt theory. Essentially, you have these institutions who go into black and brown neighborhoods and extract raw black or brown talent. And you're put on this figurative conveyor belt. And when you're on this belt, 1, you never know you're on the belt until you're off the belt. And the thing with the belt is there's always someone in front of you and someone behind you. Mhmm. And you move along this belt, and you get off the belt because you blow your knee out. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:03:58]: You aren't as good as they thought you were. And the consensus is next person up. And when the next person is up, you're essentially out. And when I read that, I was like, oh my god. I was a part of a system in which I didn't know until I read that. I was like, oh, that's what happened to me. And in that process, I was still trying to figure out, well, who am I now without sport? Because sport was something that I identified with since I was 6, 7 years old. And now here I am 21, 22 years old and it and it's over. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:04:25]: So now it's this journey of recreating myself. Like, who am I? And that led me on to going through a 1000000 different types of jobs. My first job out of college was shredding paper. Literally, shredding paper. I went back from my old school district and we were going from paper student records to electronic student records. This is 2004. And here I am, these boxes and boxes of student records. I'm literally scanning and shredding. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:04:50]: Wow. Scanning and shredding for 8 hours a day. I'm like, what the heck am I doing? And it gave me a lot of time to think in the process, and then that's when I decide, okay. I wanna go and try to be an authentic student. Go get my masters. It didn't really matter what it was. I just wanna explore this other piece of me that I didn't feel that I fully tapped into. So I ended up getting my or going to Cal State University Long Beach. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:05:13]: I'm originally from California. Going to Cal State Long Beach and I did my master's in public policy. And that's when I just started reading not just books on public policy, but just all types of books. Trying to figure out who am I in relation to the world. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:25]: So you invested in your education for yourself. Absolutely. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:05:28]: And during this process, there were so many things that I didn't realize about the world, about myself. And also in trying to find out who I am, I started taking on even more jobs. So I sold copy machines door to door in Los Angeles. And that was just something that I think everyone should try sales at least once. Just the experience of walking up to somebody and trying to sell something. Mhmm. And I remember I had this whole script. And my thing was walking into business parks and knocking on doors and saying, hey. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:05:55]: Can I talk to the person in charge of document management? And they're like, what's document management? And that was my end. Once you ask me a question, I can give you my spiel. So that was an experience. I even got put on a do not enter list because I was very persistent. And I kept going back and back and back trying to get the business. And then from there, I thought, okay. Maybe I wanna be an attorney. Maybe so then I took LSATs. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:06:15]: And then I said, well, maybe I might not wanna be an attorney. I might wanna be a police officer. I was driving down the 405 Freeway in Los Angeles, and there's this huge billboard that said LAPD hiring starting pay with a master's degree, $70,000. So I drove home, went online, put in my application, got called back for the written exam, and then got called back for the physical exam. And after I took my physical exam, it was about a 8 month period where it's just background check. In that time, I found me another job. I started working in insurance. And it was just this whirlwind of trying to figure myself out, but it wasn't until I had this one interesting interaction at Borders bookstore. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:06:50]: Remember Borders? It was like, Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:52]: oh, yeah. Mini Barnes and Noble. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:06:53]: Yeah. It was like it was like, you know, it was like Nike Reebok is Barnes and Noble's Borders. And I love Borders. But I walked in one day and this older gentleman looked like Bernie Sanders. Right? And he says, hey, did you play Rutgers? I'm like, mind you, I'm in Long Beach, California. How in the world does this guy know I played? And I barely even played. But I had a Rutgers Football t shirt on. He's, oh, okay. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:07:12]: He says, oh, it must have been a fantastic experience. Right? So, you know, older gentleman. So I sit down and have a conversation with them. And at the end of the conversation, you know, after I share my story with him, he goes, I can see it now. Vaughn Calhoun, athletic director, USC, Stanford, University of Texas. I'm like, oh, I've never even thought about myself in that way. Right? And he was the first gentleman, the first person who kinda put in my mind that I can maybe fix college athletics or do something about it because my experience as a student athlete wasn't the greatest one. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:42]: He was a total stranger. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:07:43]: Absolutely. Total stranger. Did did know him, but we spent at least an hour with each other. And subsequently, we kept talking, kept meeting with each other and he even introduced me to his network who was a sitting athletic director in Los Angeles. So he said, hey, I want you to meet my buddy. I'm like, okay. So now there's this whole world of college athletics on the administration side that I didn't know exist. Well, I knew it existed, but I didn't know, like, that was a path that I could take. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:08:06]: So now this is 2,008. I just got married and if you recall, we had the financial meltdown and crisis in the world was just going in bad places. And I decided in that period of time that I'm gonna leave my job and move across the country to pursue my doctoral degree. And everyone thought I was nuts. Even my parents, like, what are you doing? You're leaving because at the time, I was working at for a local government agency making, you know, pretty decent money. And I said, you know what? The money at that time money's important, but it wasn't important. Right? I said, this is the thing that I wanna do because I said, I wanna understand how a college works and where does athletics fit within an institution of higher education so I can be an athletic director and fix it. And then here I am moving to Boston. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:08:49]: Literally, set my car, My wife and I are now newlyweds in Boston. And I remember as I'm going through this transition, I get to my last year of my doctoral program, and my dean and I get very friendly. And he says to me, listen, Vaughn. I know what you're trying to do. You wanna fix college athletics, but the way that you feel about it, 1, are they gonna let you in? And 2, if they do let you in, do you have to uphold the system in which you don't believe in? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:14]: I was like, oh, dang. Those are some great questions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:16]: That's a hard hard dissonance to deal with. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:18]: And I was like, what do I do? He said, well, I have door number 2. I said, well, what's door number 2? He said, you can teach. I said, who the heck am I gonna teach? And he said, listen, because my dissertation was on student athletes who were academically clustered, steered into a major because it was athletic friendly. It was a qualitative research study looking at the lived experience of student athletes who were clustered. So he says, I want you to come into my undergraduate class and just give a presentation on it. Right? So I said, okay. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:42]: So I did it once, did it twice, and then he says, do you feel comfortable with that now? I said, yeah. I feel pretty good because the students were very engaging. I was like, oh, this this is teaching, Oh, I can do this. He says, okay. Now I want you to start applying to faculty jobs. I was like, oh. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:53]: Oh, he's pathwaying you. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:54]: I was like, oh, you we didn't say I was like and he said just start applying. So I was like, alright. Let me start applying. So here I am, and now I'm sitting in these faculty interviews. And, hate to say this, even when I was in college, I didn't read my first book until spring semester senior year, cover to cover. So now here I am in these faculty interviews talking about my academic and teaching philosophies and all these things. And, you know, not in my distant past, I was that student who was just kind of out there and and not being a real student. Right? So I get a callback and says, you're hired. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:10:27]: I was like, oh, wow. Right? And that was just, you know, my pathway into higher ed working for a business department, at a small private liberal arts outside of Boston. And as I'm going through this, it really just, one, changed the way that I just thought about just myself in this phase of just recreation that I could create a new identity outside of just sports. But interestingly, I had a buddy who was moving from Maryland up to Boston at this one particular college. And I've heard of it. I drove past it every day. I didn't know much about it. And this college had a black male sitting college president. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:03]: I was like, that's pretty awesome. You don't really see that in particular within, like, Massachusetts. Mhmm. So I just Google searched him and he had these interviews and articles. So he's a really dynamic individual. So literally, on a Saturday morning, pulled my phone out, saw he had a Twitter, I tweeted at him. I was like, hey, you inspire me. And a few minutes later, he tweeted back. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:24]: He was like, thanks. So like, oh, you answered your old tweets. This is awesome. So I said, hey. Can I so now now I was like, okay? He I got him engaged. So I said, this is my opportunity. So I said, okay. I tweeted again, can I have the informational interview? Right? And I heard nothing. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:37]: I was like, oh, okay. You know, people are busy Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:39]: you know. Shot. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:40]: Right? Yeah. I'm gonna shoot You know, either 1 or 2 things can happen. You make it or you miss it. Yeah. But 2 weeks later, I get an email from his executive assistant that says, you know, the president wants to meet you. I was like, oh, this is awesome. So now this is August 2015. So I go sit in the president's office. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:56]: We were there for 3 hours literally. Wow. Just talking about his career, how he did what he did, why he did it, talked about myself, what I wanna do, what I think I wanna do. And in that meeting, he said to me, you can be a college president. I was like, woah. Again, right, just having these individuals, I couldn't plan for that. Right? So a few months later or within this interim period, we would text and talk. He introduced me to his network, and my job's August 20 15. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:12:21]: So a few months later, December 2015 and again, we never talked about jobs. Just philosophy about life and stuff. And he says, I wanna offer you a job. I want you to work for me. I was like, oh, okay. I got a job over here, but I like what you're saying just in terms of just his energy and enthusiasm. So I went and worked for this guy, and he would literally bring me into meetings I had no business being in. He hired me as an an assistant professor, which eventually I I was elevated to the chair of the chair of the department sitting as a faculty chair. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:12:51]: But I would go into these executive cabinet meetings and literally just sit on the wall with, you know, all the other VPs and they're all kinda looking at me, like, why is this guy here? And after every meeting, we would just have conversation about, okay, this is what's happening. This is why I said this, this, that, and the third. And, you know, this just happened, you know, over the next few years. And in this period of time, you know, he would bring me, like, literally into his, like, his personal life. Right? You know, he would bring me into his home with my wife and my son, you know, and and talk with his family, his wife, his kids. It it just became this this really awesome dynamic. And one day I just asked him, like, why are you doing this? Because he was just so generous. And he said, because someone did it for me. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:13:30]: I just asked that you do this for somebody else. I was like, I got you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:33]: Paying it forward in mentorship. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:13:35]: Absolutely. Right? So, and one of the things he said, by you working for me you're gonna know the questions to ask. I was like, I don't know what that means. So as I'm going up from my first AVP position, I was able during the interview to really diagnose and break down some of the nuances and ask these very specific questions. And I ended up getting the job, and I remember calling him after the final interview. He was like, I understand what you mean. I knew the questions to ask. Right? And I think those questions help separate me in terms of just how I looked at the position. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:14:06]: But, you know, it was just through these events and people, I couldn't have planned this out. And when I talk about this transition, it's just a lot of constant movement but being open to that movement. Being open to being vulnerable. Being open to saying, okay. I don't know what this is, but I wanna explore it. And that's one of the things that I share with a lot of my mentees. It's put yourself out there. Ask those questions because if you don't ask, you're not gonna know. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:14:29]: So I think these are the these things that we don't often talk about in particular, leaning into your network, finding those mentors. And I think mentorship becomes very cliche, like, find a mentor, have this mentor, but, no, really build those authentic relationships. And that has helped me tremendously. I couldn't be in this position without those individuals or it would have took me much much longer to sit in the seat at Seton Hall. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:50]: That is an extraordinary journey from being a d one football player to weaving your way through to this dean of students path now. Do you still see yourself on that pathway to a college presidency? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:15:02]: I aspire to higher leadership and I know that sometimes we're in such a hurry to get there. But in getting there, you're learning so many lessons. Even in in these past few years, I've learned so many lessons just about myself, about how to manage and lead people. Mhmm. So I definitely see myself on that trajectory and I definitely wanna get there. But one thing someone told me is like don't rush the process. Right? The process is the process. You know, you don't wanna end up getting there and not being ready for it. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:15:31]: So I'm very mindful of that and and making sure that I'm putting myself in positions to sit on different committees, to be a part of conversation that make me a little uncomfortable. Like, oh, I don't know too much about the nuances of finance and budgeting, but let me sit there with it. And I think if I continue doing these things, doing good work, opportunities will present itself. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:49]: You've had a nontraditional education path into student affairs itself. How did you get yourself up to speed with all of the student affairs literature and practice knowing you come from that MPP background, that faculty end. And student affairs for those of us who've kind of been in the field a while, I think there's generally a point of frustration when we see someone who's come from a pathway that didn't include that student development foundation, and then all of a sudden we're being led by this person. So how did you come from that place of humility while still bringing your expertise that you definitely had in the public policy space? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:16:20]: Yeah. I think one thing for me is I know that I don't know, and I'm not afraid to tell folks that I don't know that I need your help. And I think when you lead with that, folks typically look at that as a point of humility. I'm not gonna say I know more than you. Because truth is, you know, any new job that you walk into, folks who are there know more than you about that particular institution. So earlier in my career, part of what I did was I was an assistant athletic director for 3 and a half, 4 years at a small private liberal arts and reported up to the dean of students and we were housed within student affairs. So I was always a part of those a lot of my job was around the student success on the athletic side, but it was for a division 3 institution. Mhmm. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:17:05]: So the dynamics are a little bit different than division 1 where the emphasis on division 3 is the whole student. And division 1 does that, but I think more so like division 3, it is just part of the culture and fabric of we know that. More times than not, no one's turning pro. That's not what our goal is. We're not trying to generate revenue in that sense. And then for me, I got into this because I was driven by my own negative experience. Mhmm. So student success and making sure that students are always at the top of mind is something that I always talk about and that I always lead with. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:17:36]: So when people hear my story and when when people understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, knowing that I have this background that is a little unique, but it's always toward that north star of how are we helping our students. And I think once that gets conveyed and understood, it helps galvanize people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:51]: How did that student athlete experience inform how you practice in student affairs now? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:17:56]: Being a student athlete, at least at the time, I felt that I wasn't heard, wasn't necessarily valued. So anytime I see a student engage with a student, I wanna make sure that they're heard, that they're validated. Because when in particular, if a student reaches my office, usually something didn't go right at some point along the way. Right? And whatever their challenges are is the most important thing to them in that moment. And me being a former just student athlete knowing that I wish I had an advocate, I wish I had someone who could really just stand up for me. I take that mindset. And even when I get these parent calls, knowing that I wish that my parents could have engaged with somebody and someone would have been receptive. So always taking that to heart and make sure that I never forget that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:38]: You've navigated a lot of change very successfully. Change and the mindset that you bring and kind of your philosophy around how you make transitions? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:18:55]: Yeah. You know, change is the really only constant and being open to it. Because I think so many times, generally speaking, folks are opposed to change because you always ask yourself, what does this mean for me? What am I gonna lose versus, well, what could I gain? And I always took the perspective of there are some things that I don't know that I know that I need to experience these things in order to become a better person and to elevate in my career. So if I would just sit back and what's comfortable, I'm not gonna grow. And interestingly, my son, he's 9 years old. And that's one thing that I really try to challenge him with. Right now he's doing Taekwondo and he's on the sparring team. And it can be pretty tough. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:19:30]: He has a really old school hard nose instructor. And my son always talks about, oh, this is getting tough. It's getting tough. I said, no. The tough part means that this is your growth phase. These are when the moments of you're gonna question yourself, but what are you gonna do in those moments? Are you gonna sit back or are you gonna meet the challenges? And that's something as a former student athlete, we couldn't just sit back and be comfortable. Because if we sit back and be comfortable, there's someone else that's working when we're not working. So constantly trying to say, how can we get better? How can we get that edge? Edge? And I take that with changes. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:20:01]: Things are moving. Right? And if I don't try to keep up with the change or get ahead of the change, we're going to be stunted in some way. And at the end of the day, the students will suffer for it. And I really think about this right, so when we think about AI, and I think one of the first reactions a year or so ago was this is the worst thing in the world. It's going to crush teaching. It's gonna crush learning. In some regards, it might to a certain extent, but also what are the opportunities of helping individuals? What are the opportunities in which we can streamline? And because students are going to enter a world that's AI driven, if we just turn our heads to that and pretend that it doesn't exist, we're doing them a disservice. Mhmm. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:20:36]: So how can we as a college community, staff, and faculty, educate ourselves so we can best educate our students and talk about it through through the lens of ethics. Talk about it through the lens of how these new technologies, though it could be different and scary, are gonna be the things that they're gonna need to be successful. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:52]: Well, and also AI is just not ChatGPT alone. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:20:56]: Absolutely. And I think Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:56]: that's been kind of the narrative in higher ed, that ChatGPT is the end of academic integrity. But there are also institutions that are using it really well for, like, auto replies when students need information Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:06]: That's right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:07]: At 2 in the morning. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:07]: That's right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:08]: Or, you know, texting services or or whatever. So there's lots of cool opportunities, but then there's also ethical issues around copyrights and particularly with arts. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:17]: Correct. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:17]: Things like that, so but I also came aware recently of an AI repository that's cataloging, like, millions of research papers, which will be an incredible resource for doctoral students of the future, which which I wish I had access to when I was doing my doctorate. So it'll make the lit review process faster in some ways, but I think also will start to discourage people from reading whole articles. I mean, let's be honest, we're always skimmers anyway, but but I think that will be a fascinating evolution too. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:41]: Absolutely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:42]: Do you have any advice for student affairs professionals that are in their own space of transition right now? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:46]: I think for anyone in the space of transition, knowing that it's gonna be difficult to a certain extent, but also knowing that if you just stayed where you're at, can you really grow? And sometimes you have to go out and put yourself in those vulnerable positions. As simple as asking for a mentor. Asking someone, will you mentor me? And again, for me, it's they can either say 1 or 2 things. They can say yes, or they can say no, or they don't respond. But what I think, you know, going through transition just knowing, focusing on the process and not the outcome and knowing that the journey will be the journey, whatever that journey, whatever that process is, and just focus on doing good work, Focus on being as authentic as you can, and focus on surrounding yourself with individuals who will speak life and encourage you. And also make sure you have those individuals who tell you the truth because we don't always just want cheerleaders around. We want those individuals say, hey. Can I give you some constructive criticism or some critiques? And that's where you can learn the most so you don't have as many gaps as you would if you didn't have those individuals there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:41]: And if you're able to hear that when it's given. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:22:43]: Yes. Right. You gotta be open to that. Because some people, you know, the the the Eagles can be very fragile, but you have to be able to really take that to say, okay. You know, they're saying this because they wanna help me, not hurt me in most cases. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:54]: Mhmm. I think that can be quite dependent on the, the provider of that advice. Absolutely. Solicited or unsolicited. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:22:59]: And if you don't ask to to solicit something from somebody, why would you listen to someone that you wouldn't solicit information from? So for me, it's making sure that you have good people around you who really care for your best interest. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:10]: Is there anything that you did in a transition that you look back and say, wow, I wish I would've done that a little differently? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:23:15]: I think it's always hard to gauge what you're gonna walk into. And you have an idea of what a situation is, but you never know what it's going to be until you actually get there. So for me, it's really just ground myself in knowing who I am and knowing my strengths as well as knowing where my gaps are and just being just just very honest with myself about that. And that can be hard for folks. Right? Every time, you know, folks say, you know, I I know all these things and I can do this. And you wanna be that go getter, but also at the same time, just just knowing that constantly learn as much as you can. And learning people, learning programs, and learning processes. Like, those like my 3 p's. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:23:51]: I wish I would've known that about 10 years ago, but every institution, there's people, there's programs, there's processes. Learn those as quickly as you can. Mhmm. And knowing that the process, again, will be the process. And have a lot of those informal conversations as much as you can and just getting to really know individuals as individuals. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:09]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:15]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot of things happening in NASPA. There's a brand new Leadership Exchange Magazine that recently came out for spring 2024. And if you've never read the Leadership Exchange, you definitely should. The Leadership Exchange is the magazine for all of our chief student affairs officers that NASPA puts out a number of times throughout the year. And this Springs Leadership Exchange Magazine is focused around preserving campus discourse. Inside of this magazine, you're going to see some amazing articles throughout the entire magazine that do talk about campus discourse and what you can do on your own campus to be able to protect free speech on your campus. There are some articles about visibility and promoting Afro Latinx students, understanding professional certification, and how you can elevate your own division through professional certification, and also talking about some of the stories of student affairs and also talking about some of the stories within student affairs. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:14]: These magazines are not just written for vice presidents for student affairs. So don't let that turn you away from learning, from reading this and taking out of it some amazing kernels of knowledge. You can access this on the NASPA website. Go to the NASPA website, click on public publications, and you'll see the Leadership Exchange is one of the publications that is available to you as a member. Also, there's a few other NASPA books that I wanted to share with you that you may find very helpful on your own campuses and in the work that you do. 1st and foremost is a book called Small and Mighty Student Affairs at Small Colleges and Universities. This book explores critical opportunities and challenges at higher education institutions with fewer than 5,000 students. Written by a diverse group of seasoned campus leaders, written by a diverse group of seasoned campus leaders, this comprehensive text covers a range of topics relevant to higher education and student affairs while providing detailed insights and action to take for and in support of to take for in support of and alongside students at small colleges and universities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:20]: Thriving in the small college culture requires flexibility, collaboration, and the ability to shift rapidly within the changing environment of higher education. Small and Mighty offers thoughtful strategies and insights to help student affairs professionals identify innovative solutions, innovative solutions to some of the most pressing issues facing small colleges and universities today. This book was written by Carol Livingston, Krista Porter, and Thomas Shandley and it is a amazing book for anyone working at a small college or university. And I highly encourage you to pick up a copy today. Now this season we've been talking about transitions and one of the big transitions that many student affairs professionals will go through in their career is supervising others. Another book that is available is called Supervised Practice Connecting Professional Competency Areas to Professional Development and Student Affairs. Supervised practice has become a hallmark of how the field of higher education and student affairs prepares future professionals. This book explores how to create the conditions necessary for supervised practice and the graduate academic curriculum to be a seamless learning experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:28]: Becoming a supervisor is a hallmark of how the field of higher education and student affairs prepares future professionals. This book explores how to create affairs prepares future professionals. This book explores how to create the conditions necessary for supervised practice and the graduate academic curriculum to be a seamless learning experience. With a focus on the ACPA and NASPA professional competency areas as the bedrock for enhancing proficiency in the field. This book is designed to introduce the competency areas as they relate to supervised practice in graduate preparation programs. Chapters examine how to design experiences for students in the workplace that align with the ACPA and NASPA professional competency areas, create condition for graduate students to understand the application of theory within the workplace, establish an environment that promotes an understanding of the supervisory role as it relates to socializing and retaining new professionals in student affairs, create learning partnerships that focus on the intersection of individual development and the acquisition of knowledge and skills for administrative practice, develop professional philosophy of practice in the digital age, and assess the professional competency areas within the graduate the graduate practicum and employee experience to ensure learning and development. If you supervise graduate students or want to supervise graduate students in the future as they prepare to be professionals in the field, a brand new book called Supervised Practice Connecting Professional Competency Areas to Professional Development and Student Affairs is definitely a book you wanna pick up. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:00]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:22]: Chris, thank you so much for keeping us informed on going on in and around NASPA. And, Vaughn, we have now reached our lightning round. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:28]: Awesome. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:29]: I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:32]: Oh, alright. I'll do I'll do my best. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:34]: Bring out your competitive story. Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:41]: Oh, my god. Oh, jeez. It would be something with, my favorite artist. One of my favorite artist is Jay z. I don't know what, but something within his catalog. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:50]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:53]: I wanted to be a San Francisco 49er. I wanna be just like Jerry Rice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:58]: Number 3. Who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:00]: Oh, that would be Dr. Robert Johnson, the current president of Western New England University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:06]: Number 4. Your essential student affairs read. Anything that deals with student success. Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:14]: Oh, Ballers with Dwayne Rock Johnson. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:17]: Number 6, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:21]: Steven Bartlett, The Diaries of a CEO. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: And finally, number 7. Any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:27]: Absolutely. I love to shout out my wife who's always been there for me, who's been a constant truth teller, but in a very loving way. And I'll also shout out my son. He's 9 years old. He keeps me young, and he keeps me on my toes as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:40]: Von, it's been just a joy to get to know you today. I'm very grateful that you took some time out of your conference to speak with us here on SA Voices. And if others would like to speak with you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:50]: They can find me on LinkedIn, Vaughn Calhoun, or they can find me at my email, Vaughn.calhoun@shu.edu. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:58]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice and your story with us today. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:32:01]: Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:05]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us atsa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:46]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome to NASPA's SA Voices From the Field Podcast. This week we had an insightful conversation from our podcast with Dr. Stacey Malaret, a seasoned authority in student affairs, recorded at the NASPA annual conference in Seattle.  Transitioning Roles: Administrator to Educator During the episode, Dr. Malaret, who has worked in student development since 1999 and serves as the Director for the Lead Scholars Academy at UCF, shared her insights on balancing administrative duties with academic responsibilities. She teaches leadership studies and serves on dissertation committees, embodying the blend of practitioner and scholar. Generational Shifts in Leadership Dr. Malaret highlighted the generational changes from millennials to Gen Z, stressing the unique leadership development needed for today's diverse student populations. UCF's Lead Scholars Academy and U-LEAD programs are testament to her progressive and adaptive methods, which now include a virtual leadership academy initiated eight years ago. The Online Learning Curve Our discussion also shed light on the augmented reality of higher education - online learning. Dr. Malaret emphasized the myth of online courses being 'easier', arguing that self-motivation is key to success in a digital classroom. While the asynchronous nature of online courses provides flexibility, it also demands a greater level of self-drive and discipline from students. Bridging Academic and Student Affairs A significant portion of our dialogue revolved around understanding the interplay between academic and student affairs. As a faculty member, Dr. Malaret brings a unique perspective to student success, bridging curricular and co-curricular experiences. Her involvement at both ends of the educational spectrum allows her to witness firsthand the impact of out-of-class experiences on academic success. Advice for Aspiring Educators For those aspiring to transition into teaching, Dr. Malaret suggested volunteering as a teaching assistant or adjunct professor to gain valuable classroom experience. She advised that understanding the academic calendar and significant dates can help student affairs professionals to be more empathetic and supportive of students during stressful times like finals and midterms. The Balancing Act Dr. Malaret affirmsedthat engaging in the classroom will enrich the abilities of student affairs professionals, influencing workshops, presentations, and even student interactions. By wearing multiple hats and thriving in each, Dr. Malaret serves as an inspirational figure for those navigating the complex landscape of student affairs and higher education.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today, we welcome our next guest who we were able to sit down with at the NASPA annual conference in Seattle, Washington this March 2024. Welcome to doctor Stacey Mallaret, originally from Orlando, Florida, and who attended the University of Southern Mississippi for her bachelor of arts degree in psychology. She then graduated in 1998 from the University of Central Florida with the master of arts in student personnel, and in 2007 with her in educational leadership. She's worked in the student affairs development field since 1999, and currently serves as the director for the Lead Scholars Academy at UCF. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: She teaches educational leadership, strategies for success and leadership studies classes, in addition to chairing and serving on dissertation committees. Alright. Stacey, welcome to essay voices. Thank you. And we are recording live at the NASPA annual conference today. We're in a meeting room right now. So for our listeners, there's audio quality differences that you're noticing. It's we're really live in person, and so it's it's not a frequent thing that I get to interview frequent thing that I get to interview guests in person, so this is a really big treat for me as well. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:01:17]: Oh, me too. Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:18]: And you're at the University of Central Florida, and you have multiple hats, both as an administrator and as a faculty member. So we're gonna be talking today mostly about your transition between those two spaces and how those kind of supplement your work and understanding as a practitioner. Great. But we love to always start by asking our guests, how did you find your way into your current seat? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:01:39]: Well, back in the 1900, as my children would say, I was a really involved student leader. My father used to say I majored in Delta Zeta because that's all I talked about. Didn't really talk about my classes. And I think I had the traditional tap on the shoulder saying, hey. Have you heard about student affairs type of conversation? And I did my research pre Internet, you know, to try to find, you know, different institutions. And I ended up going to, actually, University of Central Florida for my master's. I'm from Orlando originally. Got an assistantship, worked in student activities, got my first job in student activities. And also, during my grad program, had a practicum teaching a SLS course as a strategies and learning success course at a, say, college with shout out to Dana Gentlemen, who's a good colleague that I've known for a long time now, and Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:32]: so shout out to Dana Genten, who's a good colleague that I've known for a long time now. And so whenever I meet someone from UCF, I always think of her.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:42]: Yes. I know Dana very well. Please tell her I said hi. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:02:43]: I will. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:43]: Back to your campus. So talk first a little bit about your day job. What is it that you're doing in the student affairs world mostly? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:02:49]: So I am a director of our leadership programs area. It's called the LEAD Scholars Academy. It's an academic and co curricular leadership development program for incoming 1st year students, and then we also have a program for upper class students, which we call U LEAD. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:02]: It's been an interesting generational transition time right now between what we thought millennials needed in leadership space to now what we're seeing Gen Z is needing and they're very different things. What are you doing to adapt your practice to the generational mindset that we're seeing now? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:03:18]: Well, one thing that we started probably about 8 years ago is a virtual leo Leadership Academy. It has 8 different modules on various leadership topics that any student with a UCF ID can log in and do at their leisure. We did that because we found that students wanted that virtual space as available to them. Whether or not they take advantage of it is another question. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:40]: Of course. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:03:41]: But they wanted to have that. And I've seen different colleagues who have used that for training their own student leaders. So if maybe they couldn't take a leadership class, this was kind of the next best thing that they could say, okay. Well, before you become a peer mentor with us or a resident assistant or orientation leader or what have you. Take this virtual leadership academy so you get the basics of what leadership is as part of their training process. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:04]: And you said that was developed 8 years ago. Correct. So you were doing virtual online learning before it was cool? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:09]: We were ahead of the curve. Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:12]: So as you're looking ahead, how has that curriculum evolved over time? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:16]: Well, we have adopted the social change model as our basis for leadership development, but then we've supplemented throughout the years with other leadership theories, and we started doing strengths quests this past year. So we've been adding to the social change model as our base what we think would be good for students to learn and know about themselves and others. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:40]: For those who aren't familiar with the social change model, can you give us a a 30 second CliffsNotes? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:45]: Sure. So Susan Komaviz is one of the authors of the social change model, and it focuses on individual values, group values, and societal values, and how to make the world a better place. So learning about yourself, learning how to work with others, and learning how to take that knowledge and help with your community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: It's a unique leadership model because it's one of the few that was co developed in community with other leaders as opposed to one person being, like, here's my idea of leadership. So they kind of modeled their own leadership values and theory by creating it in their way. So if you've not read The Social Change Model, I would encourage you to do so. And, also, it's one of those ones that has a beautiful abbreviation. They always talk about the 7 c's and the 3 buckets. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:05:24]: And students really resonate with it because they can say, oh, well, I focus on this c, or I focus on, you know, collaboration or consciousness of self. I learned in strengths quest. I learned this about myself, and I'm able to relate it to a model. So it makes them feel a little bit more connected with our curriculum. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:42]: And one of my favorite things about the 7 c's model too is that you can really focus kind of in a module based form on each of the c's as opposed to, kind of looking at this long nebulous trajectory of leadership. You can really, really kind of narrow in on common purpose or civility Contribution. Yeah. Those types of things. So there's a lot of amazing institutions doing good work with Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:03]: Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:03]: This framework right now. I actually just had a conversation this morning in the Global, Division Leadership Board with a good colleague from South Africa who was saying, oh my gosh, we're using the social change model at our universities at Stellenbosch in South Africa, and I also see us talking about it here in the US. So that one's really permeating right now. And then your side hustle quote unquote is working as a faculty member. What are you doing in that space? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:29]: So I teach a Strategies for Success course for incoming freshmen, and I also teach in the higher ed program as well at our institution. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:37]: And I believe you're also advising doctoral Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:47]: their their dissertation chair, and then I also serve on committees as well. And that's a great way to help with the highest level students going into this field or just wanting to further their education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:59]: You're really spanning the corners of the Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:01]: Freshman to doctorate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:02]: Yes. Freshman to doctorate from Orlando to Seattle. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:06]: Right. And I and I actually were in Seattle, and I took a walk yesterday around town, and I passed by the City University of Seattle campus. I took a picture. I was like, oh, maybe I should go and get my faculty ID. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:16]: Did you get it? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:17]: No. It was Sunday, so I didn't. But I was like, maybe I should today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:20]: I think that's a be a fun souvenir from Yeah. Your trip to Seattle. And in thinking about what you're seeing in evolution and transition of the research right now, I know we went through a period of time where everyone was really intense about wanting to research the impacts of the pandemic. And I think we're starting to see that soften a little bit on the research and and now. What are you seeing that doctoral students are most interested in studying in the present? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:42]: Well, I have a lot of students who are studying diverse components of higher education. So, for example, the black woman's experience in the faculty world. Or I have one who's focusing on humor and how practitioners need humor in order just to get through the day. And so how do they cope with their day to day job? So it's very diverse. I don't have a really one area that students are picking up. It really depends on their individual interest. I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:19]: education faculty space. Mhmm. Because I think in our academy, you know, that we do have a knowledge community here in NASPA called Student Affairs Partnering with Academic Affairs, but those who are not insiders to higher ed don't necessarily understand the level of chasm that can exist between administration side and faculty side. So Yeah. I'd love to hear about how you transition your mindset between both roles, and then also kind of bring those pieces together for your colleagues that are in either space. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:08:45]: Well, first, in order to kinda get into the space, you need experience to get the experience, which is kind of the mantra in student affairs. And so if we have graduate students listening, I would say volunteer to serve as a graduate teaching assistant for free with a faculty member, whether it's a freshman seminar course or a leadership course or something that is more aligned with the student affairs area. Freshman seminar strategies for success, things like that are college one zero one courses are typically the one that has the biggest comparison to student affairs and biggest likeliness to have some topics that are in both areas. So I would say volunteer. Even if you're a practitioner, see if you could volunteer. Mhmm. You know, because that's how I got my first side hustle gig when I was working in student activities. I did that one GTA experience for a practicum and it was on my resume and they needed an adjunct for a freshman seminar course. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:09:38]: And they said, Stacey, you have experience. You could do this. And I kinda faked it till I made it. I was like, sure. I could do this. And just kind of struggled along and had mentors who were faculty members, like, you know, asked them, can you share your lesson plans? Can you give what you do? And I think that's really important the first time you teach is find someone who's taught it before to help you along. And so I think that there is a great relationship between teaching those types of courses and being a practitioner because you're able to see the students in a different mindset. Mhmm. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:10:08]: You can read their reflections that they may have spoken to you individually about how they're doing or about their academic advising. So there's a great relationship between student success coaching, academic advising, and teaching a freshman seminar type class. Because in my class, I have them talk about what they're taking next semester, Have them talk about what their major is, what they wanna do when they graduate. And those are all conversations that practitioners have normally with students. It's just in a more academic context, and you're grading them. You wouldn't grade them talking to them. Right. But you'd be grading them about their ability to reflect, and I think it's a great way to get to know the students in a different lens. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:48]: I am curious if you have any advice for practitioners who are looking to teach their first course, but do need to be or deserve to be compensated for that first course because it's a great privilege to be able to volunteer one's time for that type of thing. And in student affairs especially, I think we give away our time for free a lot. Yes. And so how would you kind of take that first step inside of that world if you do want to or need to be paid for that work? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:11]: Well, I would first talk to whoever the department chair is and say what is the compensation for adjuncts. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:16]: Mhmm. Which we know is not great. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:18]: Yeah. It could range anywhere from 1,000 to 5 $1,000, I've seen. And, you know, try to get your foot in the door and get one of those classes, and then you can expand to other universities. It doesn't have to be the one that you work at. You can work for a community college or an online university. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:34]: Mhmm. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:35]: Sometimes they would require additional credentials, especially if you're teaching online to learn how to work the learning management system and develop modules online. I think a lot of faculty ask me for my program. They're like, oh, I can teach online. And I'm like, it's not that easy. No. You know, you have to learn how to teach online before you can teach online. And I think a lot of people are unaware of that back end work. And so if there's a way that you can do that ahead of time, get that credential, talk to your faculty center for teaching and learning or whatever it may be called your institution and ask, how do I get credentialed to teach online? If you have that already, you're a much more viable candidate to teach. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:16]: We're talking about micro credentials. We're not talking about Right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:19]: No. No. No. Going back for another degree. No. No. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:12:21]: It would be probably an online course that you would take, a zero credit online course. Just to learn how to navigate your learning management system back end and how to engage students in an online format, things like that. And then use that to your advantage when you're asking about teaching and you might be chosen over others for that paid work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:39]: And pedagogy is so different in online teaching versus kind of that live in person instruction. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:12:44]: Right. Learning how to be interactive with discussion boards because you're not gonna have that discussion. I do a live session every week on the chapter, and I teach the chapter. Whether or not students show up for that is a different thing, but I record them and I post them. And I think even if they don't watch them, I think students, knowing that they can, makes them feel more connected to the class, or at least I like to think so. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:07]: Well, online learning, I also feel like is the the wave of how we create access in higher education. Because of that asynchronous modeling, it allows people who have full time jobs or parenting schedules or other caregiver schedules or just unpredictable hours at their work to be able to engage in their course more effectively. I took a couple of online courses in my doctoral program, and it was fascinating how much I could learn from others through discussion boards, which was not something that I expected going into the process. Right. And then really felt by the time we got to meeting in person that I I kind of knew people and how they thought about things even though we had never had a live synchronous conversation. It's an interesting process. So when you are working with students in that online space, talk about the transition that you're seeing in their expectations for a class versus how they end up engaging. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:13:54]: I think sometimes students think that online classes are going to be easier. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:59]: They're so much harder than in person. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:14:01]: They they just think, oh, I'll just take it online, and I think that the motivation in online classes is tougher because you're not having that professor in front of you saying, this is due on Friday. Mhmm. You have to have the ability to go to the calendar and to log in to we use Canvas on a daily basis and see what's on your to do list. And have that self motivation to actually work on those assignments. So I think that's the toughest thing is, you know, I have more students fail in the online course sections than in the face to face course sections because I think that motivation is something that can't be taught and some students think that they're taking the easy way out by taking the online section. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:44]: And it's a much more self intrinsically motivated space. Right. Because oftentimes in the in person space it's a lot of work to get yourself to the class, but once you're in the class, it's easier to turn your brain on because you're in a focused time. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:14:55]: Right. And you're surrounded by like minded students, hopefully, who are wanting to do well, and when you surround yourself with others who want to do well, you rise to the occasion. Whereas in an asynchronous space, you're alone, unless you are really engaging in those discussion boards. But even if you are, sometimes it's harder to feel that sense of urgency to do well in the class when you don't see others also. What do Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:20]: you want student affairs practitioners to know, who haven't been in the classroom side about what we should be paying attention to that maybe we're not seeing in our day to day interactions with students. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:15:30]: Well, I think it's really important to know what's going on in the academic side of the house. Student affairs sometimes are siloed and don't think about student credit hour dollar generation or faculty policies or withdraw dates and things like that because they are focusing on the out of class experience. But students don't come typically to a university because of the out of class experiences. They're going because they have their major or they really like the academic rigor or they are is about the academics that they're drawn to because as we all know, they're a student leader, not a leader student. Mhmm. So academics you know, more about what's going on and the timelines, you should know when midterms are because you're going to be able to see a difference in your student. And you'll know when finals are because you might need to be more lenient with what the expectations are for your student leaders that week. So I think by being in the classroom, you're in tune with that schedule and what students are going through, and also are able to help support your students more because of your awareness. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:41]: What about in the inverse? What do you think that faculty are missing about the student affairs world, and how are you bringing that message in the other direction? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:16:48]: Yeah. I don't think faculty realize how important it is for students to be involved to develop those soft skills, which are so important in the real world regardless of what career path a student will go into. I'd like to tell students that your resume will get you the job, but your leadership skills get you the promotion. So sometimes faculty forget about those leadership skills and how important it is to be involved as a student leader so that you can gain those skills. So that when they are in the field that you are teaching in, they can rise and become stronger advocates for your field and to rise in different positions of the chain. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:26]: Any final thoughts for our listeners on the transitions between the faculty seat and the student affairs practitioner seat? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:17:34]: I would say teaching is a lot of fun. It really helps you think about the student experience in a different lens, and it's gonna make you a better practitioner practitioner if you're able to teach in the classroom because you're going to first learn about yourself and how to how to talk to students, how to interact with students, and that's going to translate into your practitioner role when you're doing workshops and presentations and even interviewing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:00]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:06]: Thanks so much, Joe. Great to be back in the NASPA world. And recently, there has been some transformative news about the future of the Center For First Generation Student Success that I wanted to share with all of you today. Since its founding in 2017 as a joint initiative between NASPA and the Souter Foundation, the center has enjoyed great success built upon the foundation set by Eric and Deb Suter and their success with the original First Scholars model. The center has far surpassed NASPA's original goals. Now with 27 staff members, the center offers a wide array of programmatic offerings, national events, informative research, and of course, a robust and growing network of partners at 349 institutions representing 49 states and the District of Columbia. When you combine that with the professional development, research, data, networking, advocacy, and all the other resources provided by the center, and you can easily see why it's become the premier organization in the field of 1st generation student success. The success has prompted the center to take the next step in its evolution. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:15]: The Center For First Generation Student Success is becoming its own 501c3 organization. The vision and goals since inception was for NASPA to incubate the center until it was established as a leader in the field. While it will technically be a separate organization, the center will remain strategic partners with NASPA, the professional home for student affairs and an organization that is committed to cultivating student success. NASPA's long standing partnership with Eric and Deb Souter and the Souter Foundation as cofounders remains vital to the center's success. Since partnering with NASPA to create the center, the suitors commitment to the continuous growth and long term sustainability of the organization is the foundation on which the center's success is built, while their passion for creating economic opportunity and belief in the potential of 1st generation students is unparalleled. The transition to a 501c3 organization offers many benefits, providing more partner opportunities for higher education institutions, more ways for the philanthropic community to influence 1st generation success and outcomes 1st generation success and outcomes, and more opportunities for the center to drive transform to drive transformational change for institutions nationwide. Keep an eye out for some other exciting changes, some different names, but the center will continue to offer the same outstanding program services and support that you've come to expect while also growing to meet the needs of an evolving field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:45]: Okay. We are back. Thank you, Chris, as always, for telling us what's going on in and around NASPA. There's a lot happening post conference, so I hope you've all made it home safely and you're gearing up towards the end of the year now. So we are very thrilled to be bringing you into our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Okay. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:03]: These are unscripted because I is my go to karaoke song. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:16]: And we're here at the conference right now. Kevin Kruger just literally entered to the Bee Gees Stayin' Alive and, like, did a disco dance on stage. It was actually really fun. Yes. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:27]: I don't know. You know, it was funny. I didn't have any women in my life who worked. Mhmm. And so that was a very interesting question. So I didn't really know what women did when I was 5. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Probably doctor Joe Paul from University of Southern Mississippi. He was our vice president of student affairs and is now the president. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:48]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:51]: Oh, probably beginning your journey for our graduate students to learn how to navigate your 1st year in the profession. That's a NASBA publication. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:00]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:03]: This is Us. It is amazing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:05]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:08]: the last year. Probably the student leadership programs knowledge community podcast, and I serve as a SLPKC co chair. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:15]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:18]: I would love to give a shout out to everyone I've met at this conference and everyone who I hope to connect with afterwards. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:25]: It's been a pleasure getting to know you and hearing about the faculty side of your journey. Mostly we talk with practitioners on our show, so it's really great to get the balance on the other side. If folks would like to connect with you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:38]: Sure. My email is Stacey.Malaret@ucf.edu. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:42]: Thank you so much, Stacey, for sharing your voice with us. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:45]: Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:48]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Cratney. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:29]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Empowering Student Voices:  The Digital Transformation The use of social media in higher education has evolved from a platform for personal expression to a crucial tool for professional development and student engagement. Dr. Josie Ahlquist shared her expertise on digital leadership, emphasizing how social media gives students and educators alike the power to craft their own narratives. Gone are the days when online behavior was solely interpreted through a lens of fear; instead, we must encourage responsible and purposeful digital engagement. Revolutionizing Campus Culture: From Traditional to Trailblazing The episode highlighted the need to transcend traditional roles and embrace the flexible, interconnected nature of campus culture. The drive to humanize the workplace converges with the desire to inspire meaningful mentorship and collaboration, both within student affairs and across various campus departments.  A Visionary Approach to Student Engagement Dr. Alquist's curriculum, based on the social change model, teaches students to harness social media's potential for advocacy, community building, and change. Meanwhile, Dr. Jill Creighton's research brings to light the positive impact of social media on academic success, further advocating for its inclusion in student support strategies. Leading by Example: The Entrepreneurial Leap in Higher Education Chronicling her journey from campus professional to CEO, Dr. Alquist offers a candid look at the challenges and mental health tolls of entrepreneurial endeavors. Her experience underscores the importance of self-reflection, support systems, and the willingness to take risks - foundational elements that redefine professional growth in student affairs. An Invitation to Shape the Future Dr. Ahlquist and Dr. Creighton invite you to reflect on their own relationship with social media and its integration into higher education, encouraging continuous adaptation to the digital habits of a new generation of students. This conversation not only serves as a call to action for today's educators but a bridge to the untapped potential of tomorrow's student affairs landscape.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Welcome back for our next episode, and I'm going to be bringing back something that we haven't done in a little while, which is a crossover episode with another podcast. You'll hear us talk about this in the heart of the show, but we are doing a crossover today with doctor Josie Alquist's podcast called Josie and the podcast. So the part one of this conversation drops on her show feed, and this is part 2 of that conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: But first, let me introduce you to Josie. Dr. Josie Alquist guides educational leaders, organizations, and students to practice purpose full digital leadership through speaking, coaching, and consulting. Her practical evidence based frameworks empower clients to build and implement a digital engagement strategy that fits their life, audience, and purpose. Josie's work is grounded in the grant funded and award winning research that has allowed her to train 1,000 around the globe as a speaker, providing consulting services to institutions and companies, and coach professionals in branding, voice, and positioning. Josie's work has appeared in the Handbook Student Affairs Dialogues on Equity, Civility, and Safety. She also served as a co editor and author of The New Directions in Student Services volume, Engaging the Digital Generation and the New Directions in Student Leadership Volume, Going Digital in Student Leadership. In 2023, Dr. Alquist was selected as a NASPA pillar of the profession, one of the highest honors in our field in student affairs. She's a 3 time LinkedIn top voice in education and has been recognized by EdTech Magazine as one of the top 50 must read higher education technology blogs for 5 years. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]: Her podcast, Josie and the Podcast, has been featured by the Chronicle of Higher Education and Inside Higher Ed. Her new book, Digital Leadership in Higher Education, Purposeful Social Media in a Connected World, was listed as number 1 on Amazon's new release list for college and university student life. She received her EDD in education from Cal Lutheran and an MED in counseling from Northern Arizona with a BA in psychology and human development and family studies from South Dakota State University. Prior to her independent path, Josie spent nearly 15 years on college campuses in areas of student leadership, student activities, residence life, and student affairs communications and marketing. She previously served as a research associate and instructor at Florida State University Leadership Learning Research Center, where her curriculum builds digital literacy and leadership skills for undergraduates to doctoral students. For more information about Josie's research, speaking, coaching, and consulting, you can find her at www.josiealquist.com. That's josiea hlquist.com. You can also connect with Josie on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, and Facebook. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:07]: Josie, I'm so excited to continue our conversation. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:03:10]: I get, like, a half day with you today. It is so delightful. I need this every month. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:15]: And this is a double episode because Josie just interviewed me on her show, which dropped yesterday. Do you wanna plug that real quick? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:03:24]: So my podcast is Josie and the podcast, and I get to interview amazing guests like Jill and talk about the intersection of marketing, communication, social media, and how to be a human on and offline. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:37]: How to be a human. That is a lesson that we are all continually relearning, I think. It's hard. It's hard. But it's a joy to have you on the show today because you have such an incredible breadth of experience in higher education both as an on campus professional and as a campus partner. As I mentioned in your bio, you recently received the Pillar of the Profession award, which is tremendous. You've authored a book. You've built an entire business that works directly with higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: But it didn't all start there. And so looking forward to hearing more about all of your transitions in career and the choices that you've made along the way to stay connected and anchored into the student affairs profession while serving a gap, that definitely exists in our profession. Let's start at the beginning. How did you find your way onto campus? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:04:27]: Well, the minute I step foot on a campus, whether if it was a tour or where I ended up going to college at South Dakota State, I was hooked. The talents were in and I was one of those freshmen probably on a coffee table yelling, I love college. And, I don't go on coffee tables anymore because that could really hurt my knees. But I just absolutely loved it. The energy, the exploration, the exploration, the involvement, and had really great mentors that were like, well, Chelsea, it's not all the fun stuff of being an orientation leader. There's there's actually a lot of, you know, operations, but I found my way through that too. And also found my way as social media arrived on our campuses that I was really comfortable playing in the sandbox along with a lot of a lot of change. So from my roots in student affairs over 12 years at different campuses, I'm based in Los Angeles. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:05:23]: My last institution was Loyola Marymount and I also have always education is such a core identity of who I am and, values. Early on, my mom or my grandma and grandpa saying you gotta get your education, kid. And I just always knew I wanted to get my doctorate. And so the doctorate was kind of a spark that started a fire. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:05:48]: I didn't ever realize. I can pause there. I can keep going. I don't know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:53]: Well, your dissertation I think we share this in our stories that our dissertations really led to career changes, which is fascinating. Your dissertation was on social media behavior with undergraduate students. What did you learn from that? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:06:06]: I still feel like I am a interpreter of culture and generations and the internet And around 2013 is when I started my program, and then it was a very it was packed a diminished view of students' use of technology and especially for student leaders, I would hear a lot of talk about assuming students were doing the worst things possible online and I wasn't seeing that with my students. It went against, I feel like, who we are as practitioners that we're putting all this work into empowering them and giving them the tools and we know developmentally and you worked in conduct, you get it, you see that process, but we were making a lot of assumptions out of fear and so I wanted to know what were they really doing online, if it was as bad as we thought or not, because this also was the time where it was super black and white. Do not even look at your student stuff, don't let them connect with you. Some places, you still couldn't even have accounts as departments. It was it was very much scare tactics. And, honestly, that was one of the discoveries in my focus groups. Students would talk about their whole lives that they were educated about social media with fear. To catch a predator came up. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:41]: Oh, yeah. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:07:42]: Like, literally. And what was also so fascinating was they learned lessons based upon how the people in their lives older than them were making mistakes and or their peers, so they were just having to learn this stuff on the flight. Like, imagine dropping Josie, who grew up in Wyoming, on the 405 in LA without ever of driving in in a city before. You woulda had to tow my car out of there. I'm sorry. I just didn't have those skills, and sometimes that's what we're doing and or telling me before I get to LA how it you're gonna adapt you're not gonna make it unless you do x y z, and that kinda broke my heart a little bit. Like, again, we give so much and it's not even about, like, positive psychology but just tell them what to do then. What do you want them to do online? Like, they were so desperate that then they would say, well, this is how my RD, I've noticed, uses Facebook. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:08:36]: So maybe that's how an adult does Facebook even though there is no one way. We know that. Right? We get to make a million choices and so what came from that was a set of curriculum. I wanted to be able to share. I'm a I'm a sharer and this could be a framework you could teach your students And that also is what led then to me speaking to a lot of students in a new way because a lot of times they'd come to, like, my keynote or it to, like, get on LinkedIn or start a blog, share my story. No one told me I could share, but in a purposeful way. So I use the social change model as the framework in both the curriculum, but also what I was looking for. If the student leaders that we were putting so much investment in, if they were actually using those skills on social. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:09:37]: And I think the individual skills was definitely shown. Group skills are more harder. It was the time of the ice bucket challenge, so there was that kind of expression. Yeah. But overall, with a couple exceptions, they were they were using these tools in productive ways and I still think that holds true today that we need to give youth more credit than I think we're just assuming other tool. And so I just really got on a soapbox, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]: If it's a topic you're passionate about, this is good. But I'll give a shout out to doctor Jason Foster, Positive Use of Social Media and Their Academic Success. And that was kind of similar to what you were seeing, a time where I was using social media to connect and build relationships with people. This is before it was a dumpster fire all the time, I think. And we were hearing the narrative that social media was so bad. And so we thought we wanted to contribute to the literature in a way that reflected, well, there's obviously some benefits here. Let's talk about them. And we found that students were using social media to be academically successful in group projects, which was a really interesting twist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:48]: And, you know, we ended up getting cited in the handbook of qualitative research, I think, or social media research, something like that. And I was like, wow. I didn't think this was that profound, but it's nice to Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:10:58]: This is blowing my mind because I'm fairly positive I cited that paper. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:03]: And now That's really funny. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:11:04]: Source because I'm like, wait. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:11:08]: That's amazing. And but I think the one lesson looking back because it was so extreme that there was this negativity. I stayed in that positive, purposeful place because we know now 10 years later, there are so many ethical issues and concerns and things that need to change and are problematic that things are different. 10 years cycle. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:31]: So let's talk about those transitions then because Yeah. In in our theme of transitions, we've seen all sorts of things from our guests in different personal transitions. But one of the transitions I appreciate from your perspective is this longitudinal arc of how students are using social media, what the concerns are from different generations of students with social media use, and the trends that you're seeing for how student affairs professionals can actually connect with students because I know they don't want us on TikTok. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:12:02]: They do if you meet the culture and the content for that platform. If you show up like you would in an email or on LinkedIn, give them the ick. Like, let that you know, it'd be cringe and I think this is where the concept of time right now kind of blows my mind. I feel like I'm still in my thirties, that I am full blown ahead in my forties. Right? And the longer we're in these positions and we see lots of students come and go, but we can sometimes forget how much has changed in 10 years. So the students in my study, and a lot of them I'm still connected with and some of them are higher ed pros now, they are now full into millennials and we still are thinking about those students and sometimes communicating like those are still our students and meeting them on platforms that we were for example, Facebook groups were big back then. We still have people trying to keep Facebook groups alive for 1st year students, like class of whatever. I'm like, honey, they're on Discord. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:13:03]: They've made a subreddit of you already. The pacing is so much different of these other platforms and so that needs, our side needs to change. They've also grown up even further back than the students in my studies. So as early as when they were born, potentially, the second they came out, they had a paper trail, Good or bad? And we are also seeing more students come or preteens, teens, young adults having more frustrations that then they didn't get say in what their digital identity was early on and or we are also seeing them double down and become influencers on different platforms whether that's a micro influencer just talking about makeup or running or a million other things And so, we might be inviting new students to our campuses. They have influence that we didn't in college in addition to access, so lots of communications. I do think that education and curriculum has improved but honestly the majority of it is their own self. Education and peer education tends to be always some of the strongest factors. I think the other thing that's also who grew up with social media early in their careers and so now they are their own kind of digital natives in executive roles. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:14:35]: I had previous vice presidents that wouldn't touch any tools, let alone know what they are or be willing to access them. So I think 2 things are happening at once, both what our students are doing and what it's impacting our profession and future leaders use or even misuse. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:52]: We are all over the place as a profession in terms of our level of comfort with having a digital identity or digital footprint, as well as our level of capacity or skill base for how that's going for folks. You know, some of us are all in on all platforms. Some of us are partway in on some platforms and all in on others. And some of us are like, you just said Discord. What is that? So there's a level of all of these things. Right? Like, I'm on Discord. I'm on Slack. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:21]: I'm in the YouTube space. TikTok was banned in the country I was last in, so couldn't be on there. But Douyin was allowed, which is, like, the counterpart in the country. But there's also social media that is huge in other parts of the world that a lot of Americans have never heard of or use. Like, WeChat is, like, a tool of life Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:15:39]: Oh, yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:40]: In a lot of Asia. Yes. And and you can't function without a WeChat account. It's where all the information is. So given all of this major big landscape, how would you recommend that student affairs professionals who want to gain digital skills and don't necessarily feel like they know how to do that go about the process. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:15:59]: I think just like how our students are sorting it out and how we seek out mentors and sponsors is to find those yourself. And the nice thing is you can just kind of lurk and scroll on your own, but I do highly encourage people to actually reach out, right? Like if someone aspires to be like you, I aspire to be like you, Joe. But I have a podcast or again, like, working internationally, like, reach out. Use the access not just for the likes and comment. That is my number one advice when students are doing their doctorate or masters. You have a secret sauce that somehow gets taken away after you graduate is that you just say you're a student, people will take your calls more often for guidance and mentorship and so I called up a lot of the people I was citing or just people that were talking a lot about social media and tech to ask some questions and now they're some of my closest colleagues and even friends. And so I guess my advice is you have to take it offline. You really do have to take the relationship piece. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:17:01]: The tools can be a spark, but they are not the source to keep it sustainable. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:07]: You wrote a book recently that was listed as number 1 for new college releases, which is very exciting, on Amazon, Digital Leadership and Higher Education, Purposeful Social Media in a Connected World. Now I don't want you to have to rehash your whole book, but I'm wondering if you have nuggets for professionals who are aspiring to increase their professional digital presence, both for their campuses and for the field. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:17:31]: Write the book. If you wanna write the book, make sure it's in the right place. The reason why you think you want to write a book, my number one piece of advice is write it with someone else. Or it might be great, maybe I was the queen of committee work. I loved it. I was good at it but also then I was, like, I just wanna close myself in my office and be alone. A book project where you're already with working with so many people, it might be a glorious thing for you to get to do something on your own. I would also say just like you need to rearrange the furniture of your life when you do your doctorate, a book will be the same that you will need to and or it's just not gonna get done. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:18:09]: And I would say what I have learned is make it a living thing. What I don't like about books is then they are printed and you can't change it like you can on the Internet. Mhmm. And my book is already very outdated. And I have to think about how do I keep contributing to that topic or leave it entirely and or what is the future versions of it, whether if it's me that's contributing or other people. And I think maybe that's just a lifelong learner in me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:38]: So now let's jump back because you are one of the most, I think, beautifully present people in the campus partner space. We know you well. We see you often. We see you engage with professionals both on and off campus. But that transition was, I think, a scarier leap when you made it than I think it's a little more common now. Tell us about making the determination to discontinue campus based work and, as you put it, accidentally build a business. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:19:08]: Yes. I think I blogged about this and shared a bit on my podcast, but I think it's good to share the full breadth of the story. I mean, not too long. I swear. I won't be too long winded because it was difficult not just in the doing but the unweaving and rebuilding of my identity. And so it started with applying for a position that I did not receive that was gutting and required me to reconsider and it was an internal position. And I looked around and I there was nowhere else on campus that I could see myself which also scared the heck out of me because I was 6 months into a doc program. I was like, well, is this place even for me? And my husband and I were out for a run. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:19:51]: I all of a sudden just start crying uncontrollably. He's like, did you fall? And he knew I was kind of having a hard time. And he's like, we're okay. Like, what if you just did school? And I'm like, who you. I've been working since I was 12. Work is my identity. I grew up in a low income and middle class family in Wyoming. My grandparents are all ranchers. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:20:13]: Like, work is what we do. It was never even a consideration of not doing. I sat on it for a couple of months and it started to grow on to me. So, honestly, it even started with the idea and so that might resonate with some listeners of what it means to just do school full time and not be contributing to your family or needing to take out other resources, that that internal struggle is real and validated. But then what I didn't anticipate was leaving my job then and the excitement and the going away parties that then went away in 2 months and I completely was in a free fall. My mental health, you know, you can that I discovered panic attacks and anxiety? And I've always, I think, had anxiety, but it cracked open, again, just doing school. And I had busied myself so much. Again, queen of committees. Put me in everything. Do everything. Output. So I blogged every day for 50 days and just poured myself into Twitter now x, where I found a community where student affairs used to be very active Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:21:30]: Of colleagues, friends, and just continue to go there. That was, like, my water cooler. And by the time I graduated, I was already starting to get invited to do speaking because I was blogging my coursework and you could still do this. Set up a substack and share what you wrote about on Black board, like or it literally could be, this is a quote from my paper that you did because that's how I just started to share the work I was doing. I was still terrified that what I was doing wasn't real or worthy. So I picked up, like, 4 adjunct positions at once and doing some speaking on the side. But I always had this, I need a plan b. So I'm still looking at jobs. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:22:15]: I'm, like, doing the speaker circuit thing. And it wasn't until, honestly, a couple years before the pandemic that I finally said, Josie, you need to make a commitment. Is this a business? Are you in or you're out? Because mentally, it's also tormenting. And so then I did. I've I I mean, I literally took out, like, a license that, you know, like I'm incorporated now and, brought on people to help me. And I just think to acknowledge and not to scare people of, like, you make this transition, there might be mental health impacts, like, things that were kind of already residing that I would say have resources ready for you at the ready and to bet on yourself too. I didn't bet on myself early enough because honestly, I think people listening in higher ed will get this. We're a perfectionist. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:23:07]: We don't want to fail. And I was scared if I called it a business and it didn't make it, then I was gonna be a failure. And that held me back though for what could've and is coming to be. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:19]: You've said a couple of things that I I think are really important to touch back to. And the first is that I think in student affairs, especially, there's a lot of identity wrapped up in the profession, in a job title, in a job function. I think that's partly because the outside world doesn't grasp the profession. And a lot of times, our own families and partners don't grasp the profession, and so we kind of hang on to the identity maybe a little bit tighter than other professions may. And so letting go of that is not just transitioning a career. It's figuring out where that piece of you goes or what happens to it, after you transition. That's a big one. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:23:59]: Well, and some of that is not knowing what box to check. NASCLA only just recently added a consultant membership or, you know, or I wouldn't be able to go to certain things. I had to have a campus affiliation and there was a sense of it wasn't embarrassment but I was very fearful people were gonna see me as an outsider, that I was gonna be cold calling them and so, I also I've always been centered in community and relationships which, so I've been doing sales but in a heart centered way because I need to work. I need to make it. I'm going to make this work. Right? But I had to do a lot of money stuff on weaving some of that money mindset things in order to build a business, that wasn't that was going to be productive. In higher ed very much. There's an entrepreneurship element to your transition and higher ed very much. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:59]: There's an entrepreneurship element to your transition story. I have a friend who researches entrepreneurship. They're an assistant professor in the College of Business, and that's kind of their their area of research. And they have found through their research that the most successful entrepreneurs are the ones who tilt in a 100%, the ones who actually take away their safety net, which is the most terrifying thing that you can do. But it sounds like that's what you did. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:25:23]: Yeah. You should have sent me that article. Yeah. And I think just even not saying I'm my only identity is entrepreneur, but not resisting that. And I don't have an MBA. I swear I don't know what I'm doing half the time on business side, but I'm seeking out different types of mentors. And I'm also finding others, and you're one of them now, in a different type of way that we need our own resources as campus partners in community, in how we can transform the industry too because it needs to be done from the outside. And it's not outside in a negative way. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:25:59]: It's actually more it's gonna be more impact full in the end. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:03]: Let's talk about that transition to being a CEO, so your your own boss and your own employee, but also a person who's driving their own schedule, driving when you work and when you don't, setting your own limits, deciding when enough is enough for a day, a week or a month, that feels really overwhelming to me, just looking at the lack of limit and needing to self impose as a person who also drives with a lot of purpose. How did you figure that out? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:26:30]: Oh, trial and error and lots of therapy and hiring a coach. Mhmm. So I brought on a business coach and you'll just laugh at me what she caught on quickly that I was a workaholic that especially when the business wasn't doing well, to me, you just work more. It's almost like your punishment then. You have to work every single day. And one of her first homework assignments was, she's like, I want you to take every Sunday off. And I looked at her. We negotiated it to one Sunday off a month. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:27:00]: That's what I negotiated it down. I'm embarrassed. Like, I put up such a front that I couldn't even imagine what it would be to not work one day a week or what a month, let alone a whole weekend. And by the time we finished our work together, my husband and I also purchased an RV and I took off 6 weeks. So you can't sometimes we don't see how we are in our own ways. We need people and it doesn't mean you have to pay people to tell you that, but I needed that mirror because at the same time, I was completely this was toward the end of the book and, you know, we're in a pandemic. I was completely crumbling, like, the foundation was so weak and I just kept jumping on the trampoline, like, no, it's not. So I have known I've really I have to prioritize it. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:27:55]: I will edit this because it is a professional podcast. But I may be my own boss, but she can be a real bee sometimes. I have very high expectations of myself. So I need other people to help me make sure I'm staying grounded. And I've also realized that I don't like to work alone and while I'm sacrificing financially, in November, I brought on my very first full time employee which was both terrifying and exciting for someone else to be relying on you. But I'm also so strategically and to wanna grow. And but for some people listening, they might or you've already built your own person shop and that's that can be great too. We all we don't all need to turn into these big agencies or or whatever. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:28:51]: I think that's the other piece that I found. You get to define not only your time, but how you are going to structure your your business. It's so funny when you think about a dissertation is such a recipe card. Sure, you can mess it up, but, like, it is so structured. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:08]: Chapters 1 through 5, maybe 6. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:29:11]: Yeah. And then this is what you write, this is what you say, you've got this feedback. Being an entrepreneur is not a whole bunch of it. And I am a recovering control girly. And sometimes you have to let it go and sometimes you have to be like, what do I want? I could do anything today. Well, not always, but from now, I work at WeWork sometimes or I need to get out of the house more. So I also joined a gym that is right next to WeWork. Giving yourself permission to really pay attention how you work best and how Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:42]: you're gonna best make that impact. Can you talk a little bit about how your views on the profession changed from being a campus based professional to being a campus partner? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:29:51]: Oh, wow. How they have changed. Well, it is nice to see that there is more of a acknowledgment of how the work by partners, by consultants, whatever they're called, are necessary and we're not it's not just about the money or adversarial. That's been just good for my own mental health and where I fit into things. I see much more macro things happening. I mean, we were just talking, before we started recording about we're losing really great people. We that our students need those people. The the mental health weight of this work, it makes me want to do something bigger than my myself or what my business provides. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:30:35]: And so that's why a lot of my work is just trying to put good minds together, whether if that's on a panel, in a Slack channel because I can't do it all, but I just wanna connect all the people to help because it still blows my mind how many people like, they say student affairs is a small world, but it's not. Even people I'm like, wait. You don't know each other? Like, how in the world does this not happen? And that that honestly brings me more joy sometimes than, like, being asked to speak somewhere is that then I get to I mean, it's the same thing with our students, right? We get to go see what they do with the rest of their lives. I would also say it's only to a certain extent, but so many of the challenges you're facing, a million others are on their institutions to like I'm not saying normalize it, but for example, social media, I can anticipate what I'm gonna be finding in consulting or coaching and exec. We we can be so hard on ourselves. We're not far enough along. Our engagement isn't going well. Just hear it from me. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:31:29]: Like, it's all a bit of a struggle. And that could kind of be nice to hear. Like, oh, it's not just me. I feel a little and that's not just with social. It could be a variety of different topic. Oh my gosh. And honestly, what I am finding is and what I'm bummed so bummed about, even in grad school and maybe programs are doing better now. I feel like I was hid from what our admissions and enrollment people really were doing and are up against Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:31:56]: And I think we're having because especially we're seeing student affairs and enrollment pair up but I I don't know if it was the institutions I was at or where I got my grad program but, like, I feel like it was, like, we don't talk about that. That's not your place. You just focus here. And I think that's such a disservice because even when I talk to marketers or enrollment people, I'm like, y'all are y'all are doing the work of student success, right? And even they're not hearing that. Mhmm. So somewhere in our echo chambers, that is being perpetuated to continue and I think the institutions that are doing the best, sure, we've got department names and divisions are we need a collective effort. We obviously all need to do what our work or tasks are meant to do, but it's not doing a service to, like, keep people not understanding how they could make an impact on enrollment. I really appreciate you Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:50]: mentioning that because I think that aligns with a lot of my experiences as well. Even, even sitting in an ADP or a CSAO seat, you know, the enrollment side can have a level of mystique to it. And it's interesting having spent a career in higher education, and I don't think I could advise, a high school student the best way to craft their application for admissions at this point because it is, a, still a little mystical, but, b, because it's different everywhere. And that's that's interesting if you really break it down on how siloed our profession can be within itself sometimes. But when we can connect those things, the power in that is really extraordinary. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:33:34]: Right. Even within in within our campus walls, in different divisions, we we're having similar challenges of retaining a certain type of staff or again, I just I think we're missing out so many ways of going back to the beginning of humanizing the work that we do and workplace challenges in addition to students just want to learn. And no matter what the title of the department is, sometimes that bureaucracy gets in the way. And I once I love social media because it kind of doesn't care. Like, a student's gonna find what they wanna find wherever they're gonna find it no matter what the title is. And if they can't find it on your website because they probably aren't, they're gonna ask on Reddit, and it may or may not be But I would say I am excited. I am energized and I just wanna say one more thing that I haven't said that I especially say to a lot of people that come to me. They're like, I wanna start my own business. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:34:38]: I wanna be a consultant. From the beginning, I had a partner in this with me, And we have gone ebbs and flows of sometimes it's more me, sometimes it's more him in order to do this work. That is a privileged place to be in that I fully acknowledge both financially, emotionally, that I wish people could just do the thing they wanna do immediately. But there were times if I didn't have a partner, I would also have needed another job or 2 to make ends meet. And I think people need to hear it both in an ethical way, but also there are ways that you could start doing speaking consulting immediately. There's no reason that you need to do it fully as a full time thing. That would also be great for you to get experience and to see if that's something that you'd really wanna do because it's not easy either. There's some some gritty parts of it that may not be a good fit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:29]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:35]: Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world to let you know about some amazing things that are happening in the profession. 1st and foremost, there are a few brand new NASPA books that are in the NASPA bookstore. The first, Student Affairs Professional Preparation, A Scholar Practitioner Guide to Contemporary Topics by Jackie Clark, Jeanette Smith and Associates. This book offers unique insights into critical issues facing higher education and student affairs. It was written by a diverse team of practitioners and faculty. This comprehensive volume serves as both a primer on contemporary topics and a tool for practitioners and students. Some of the chapters in the book address HISA matters that have been central to professional preparation for decades. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:23]: Others concern aspects that are emerging and evolving in unprecedented ways. Each chapter is written by a team consisting of at least 1 practitioner and at least 1 faculty member. This intentional partnership allows for a rich conversation that addresses both professionals in practice and students and faculty in preparation programs. The content can be directly used in practice or to generate critical lively conversations in the classroom. The authors have also included excellent resources for further reading and classroom activity. The second book, Crucial Collaborations, A Practical Framework to Ensure Access, Equity, and Inclusion for students with disabilities. This was written by Neil Lipsitz, Michael Berger, and Eileen Connellberger. Ensuring access and sense of belonging for students with disabilities in higher unique organizational structure, culture, faculty, staff, and students. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:25]: This book presents a cross functional framework that administrators, faculty, access service providers, parents and guardians, and students themselves that can be used in the review and responsibilities of each stakeholder who contributes to positive post secondary experiences for students with disabilities. The groundbreaking framework has many applications, including facilitating student inclusion and socialization, empowering stakeholders through shared knowledge, and assessing the efficacy and effectiveness of institutional programs for students with disabilities. Throughout the book, the authors discuss their personal and professional experiences to animate and operationalize the framework. One other thing that I wanted to share with all of you today is a brand new book in the NASPA book store. It's a book in the NASPA book store called The Business of Student Affairs Fundamental Skills for Student Affairs Professionals written by Larry Mineta and Ellen Jay Consulting. This book is a primer on the fundamental business related aspects of student affairs that all practitioners need to know. Drawing on his 46 year career in higher education, Larry Mineta, the author, presents critical skill sets to better equip student affairs practitioner educators to analyze circumstances, alter environments, invest in structures and programs, and lead campus progress. Topics include financing and budgeting, organizational design, human resources, facilities management, technology, auxiliary operations, legal issues and risk management, crisis management, strategic planning and communications. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:58]: The key takeaways in each chapter provide further guidance to achieve success in the field. For anyone going into student affairs or new to student affairs, you may find that many of the topics in this book may not have been covered in your graduate preparation program or maybe something that you just need more insight into. And this book definitely provides you with that insight. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA bookstore today and check it out for yourself. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:20]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:50]: Chris, thank you so much for keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. We know we just came out of annual conference, but there is still a lot more opportunities for engagement. So I appreciate you letting us know what those are. And, Josie, we have reached our lightning round. I've got 7 questions for you, 90 seconds. Ready? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:10]: Okay. Okay. I'm scared. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:12]: Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:17]: Well, I am a conference keynote speaker. I have to pick Beyonce's new tunes. Any of the 3 that have come out recently, I think at that point, I wanted to be a swim coach. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:37]: I was a swimmer. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:43]: Ed Cabellan. He brought me under his wing early, early days meeting on Twitter, and he sponsored to help me get to my very first ACPA conference to present Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:54]: with him. Number 4, your essential student affairs read. The Chronicle. Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:03]: Why did Tiger King immediately come to mind? It was not the best. It was just the first thing I thought of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:08]: Oh my gosh. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:09]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:13]: Well, it is mine, Josie and the podcast, because of editing and creating. But, my Spotify rap tells me Armchair Expert is, all their different shows are super fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:27]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:31]: Oh my gosh. I think I'm especially maybe it's from the Barbie, Taylor Swift, Beyonce movement. It's a summer for women and girls, and I am also just, like, on fire about that. So I just wanna give a shout to all the women and girlies listening and, I mean, all gender unconforming identities that we need space and community and and being lifted up. And so I'm doing a lot of different groups and meetups to do things like that, but we're taking over, Jocey. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:00]: I'm so grateful to you for this 2 part episode. Again, part 1 dropped on Josie's podcast, Josie and the podcast. This is part 2 of the conversation. So if you'd like to go back and listen to part 1, go ahead and find her show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you download your podcasts. But, Josie, if folks would like to engage you as a consultant or just have a chat with you, how can they reach you? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:43:21]: Well, you can find me at josiealquist.com, blogging, podcasting, all of the things. I am on Instagram, LinkedIn threads, x is swirling as it does. And I actually do have a TikTok, but currently it's all reactions to my husband's content, which is epic rap battles of history. So if you want that type of entertainment, you can go there. And as Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:44]: you search for Josie, so that's Alquist with an a h l q right in there. Josie, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:43:53]: Thanks for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:57]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Cratney. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:31]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.  

Welcome to NASPA's SA Voices From the Field Podcast where we delve into discussions that shape the future of higher education and student support. In today's post, we reflect on the poignant insights from Dr. Joisanne Rodgers, Director of Contemporary Student Services at George Mason University, who recently graced our podcast episode. **Bridging Gaps: From First-Gen Student to Student Advocacy** Dr. Rodgers' noteworthy journey from a security-seeking first-generation college student to a beacon for inclusive education mirrors the ambitions of many striving to find belonging within academia's halls. Her multifaceted career path exemplifies how diverse experiences can coalesce into a powerful drive for institutional change. Rodgers' role at George Mason University is not just about administration; it's about forging connections with and for students who have traditionally been on the periphery of college life support structures. **Language Evolution: A Step Toward Inclusion** The evolution from 'non-traditional' to 'post-traditional' student terminology that Dr. Rodgers discusses signifies an important shift in the higher education lexicon. By moving towards more inclusive language, institutions like George Mason University acknowledge the changing demographics of their student bodies and the unique challenges these students face, underscoring a commitment to support that encompasses not just academic, but life success. **A Supportive Community: More Than Just Space** Dr. Rodgers highlights that creating physical and conceptual spaces for students to flourish is paramount. George Mason University's community spaces, unique ambassador positions, and appreciation events underscore an approach that sees students not as secondary participants in their education but as central figures with rich, intricate narratives expanding beyond the classroom. **Post-Traditional Pioneering: A University's Role** The university isn't just leading the charge through in-house initiatives but is contributing to the broader dialogue on supporting post-traditional students, partnering with organizations such as NASPA. These partnerships foster a crucial exchange of best practices and innovative ideas, equipping institutions to better serve their diverse student populations. **Looking Forward** As Dr. Rodgers and many other advocates for contemporary students make clear, universities have an opportunity and responsibility to adapt, evolve, and provide equitable support. This not only benefits post-traditional students but enriches the entire educational community. Their successes aren't just personal triumphs; they are milestones in the progress towards a more inclusive, holistic approach to higher education.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back for our next episode of essay voices from the field, where once again we were able to sit down with a guest at the NASPA annual conference. I'm pleased to introduce you today to doctor Joisanne Rogers, sheher. Joisanne is a first generation college student, a post traditional student, a life long learner, and an educator passionate about post traditional and contemporary students. Doctor Rogers has worked in higher education for nearly 20 years in various roles, including admissions and recruitment, advising and success coaching, housing and residence life, marketing and outreach, retention initiatives, and student success initiatives. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:55]: She currently serves as director of contemporary student services at George Mason University in Virginia. Doctor Rogers leads a fantastic team of advocates and champions, serving Mason's contemporary student population. This team collaborates and partners throughout the Mason community to support contemporary student belonging, thriving and success. The team are proud recipients of the bronze level 2023, 2024, NASPA Excellence Award in commuter, off campus, military connected, non traditional, and related. Doctor Rogers also serves as an adjunct associate professor at University of Maryland Global Campus, where she earned outstanding adjunct faculty designation as an alumni volunteer at Algany College in Pennsylvania. Doctor Rogers earned a bachelor's in political science and dance studies from Alghany College, a master's in student affairs and higher education from Western Kentucky University, a specialist in leadership from American College of Education, and a doctorate in leadership with a focus on higher education from American College of Education. Her research interests include post traditional and contemporary students, mitigation and elimination of institutional barriers, and student success and retention. Welcome to essay voices, Joisanne. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:58]: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. And thank you so much for taking time out of your conference schedule to sit with us here in Seattle. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:04]: Absolutely. It's delightful rainy weather, So glad to hang out with you for a bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]: This is my hometown and, you know, people are always like, oh, it must rain a lot in Seattle. I'm like, oh, not really. And I really appreciate that Seattle's like showing out for you all with the rain today. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:20]: It's true. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:20]: We also may get to be dodging a protest for a different organization today. So, you know, all sorts of eventful things happening in Seattle. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:28]: Well, coming from DC, I'm I'm a pro.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:30]: Oh, the other Washington. Yeah. The other Washington. The other Washington. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:33]: We got it covered. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:33]: I do when I say I'm from Washington, people go DC and I'm like, no. State. The other other farther away one. But we're really looking forward to learning from you today about your transition story into higher education from an arts background. That's something that you and I share in common. My bachelor's degree is in music performance. And weird fun fact, I used to teach top classes to pay for college. So Nice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:55]: So I'm really looking forward to hearing that from you. We got to know you a little bit at the top of the show through your bio, but we always love to start with asking our guests how you got to your current seat. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:03]: Sure. So first of all, I'm a 1st generation college student, and so I went to undergrad not far from where I grew up. A little bit of safety in that. I knew the institution, knew the campus. And so not knowing much of anything else, that was where I was going. I had friends who went there. So I went to Allegheny College as an undergraduate, majored in political science, and minored in dance studies. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:29]: I taught community ballroom classes.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]: So I love this. I love this so much. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:35]: And then I figured out while I was there. I went in, wanting to be a lawyer. That's what I was gonna do. And non spoiler spoiler alert, that's not what I'm doing as I'm on the NASPA podcast. Right? And so I found that those folks that were outside of the classroom were really the folks who were making big differences in what my access and what I could do and how I thought about things and and that kind of stuff and figured out that that was a job. Yeah. Who knew? And so I started looking for programs and positions both and got hired at Western Kentucky University. So I was a full time housing residence life staff member, part time graduate student there. Joisanne Rodgers [00:04:18]: I was an assistant hall director and hall director through that, and then moved to the DC area and realized that many times there's a gap between the academic side of the house and the student affairs side of the house. Mhmm. And I wanted to collect secret decoder rings Oh. To help build those bridges. So I started looking in the DC area for positions that were maybe academic adviser positions or those kinds of things that leaned into the student affairs counseling things that I've been doing just kind of in a different way. And so I became an academic advisor that then kind of morphed into a success coach role at what was then University of Maryland University College is now University of Maryland Global Campus, and started working with post traditional students at a non traditional institution, which was very different than any experience at at the institutions I had been at, small liberal arts, regional with some global reach, into this global giant institution and learned a lot through my work there, but also connecting with colleagues and moved up and around there and decided I should probably go for that next degree because why not? Worked on my doctorate, did my research in institutional barriers for non, post traditional students, and all of that kind of came together for the position that I'm in now at George Mason University. So in 2019, George Mason University created the contemporary student services unit, which is a really innovative, first of its kind way to serve all of these different post traditional populations and the intersectionalities of all of those in a one stop shop kind of way, really. And so, like I said, it's a it's a first of its kind, and as of last Google, the only of its kind. Joisanne Rodgers [00:06:05]: So when I saw the job description, it was one of those things where I took a moment and thought, okay. Either someone is totally stalking me online and created this specifically for me, or I may have just found the job I've always been looking for. Either way, like, I sent it to my friends. I'm like, I'm not misreading this. Right? Like They wrote this for me. Joisanne Rodgers [00:06:25]: They wrote this for me. I didn't completely, like, lose total reading comprehension. Right? So, I had that moment of this is too good to be true. Right? And it wasn't, and that is fabulous. And so I applied and hired on and now work with this incredible team of folks who are dedicated to post traditional students, contemporary students off campus transfer, adult learners, student parents, veteran military connected folks, foster care alumni, system impacted folks. So it's a really great place and a really great space to be innovative and stay ahead and to use all of that background. I like to tell folks because we had a conversation about having that arts beginning that I use my dance theory and knowledge just as frequently student development. It just really depends because they both are part of the everyday process of the work that I do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:26]: I'd like to dig into the language that you're using a little bit because I think that is an evolution and transition of how we've talked about students over 25 and students with children and etcetera, etcetera. So you're now using the term post traditional students and non traditional student is the terming that had been used for years. So tell us, about the inclusion of that new term and how it's reflective of current practice and why it's different. Joisanne Rodgers [00:07:51]: Yeah. So nontraditional, anything non. Right? You're not the usual. That makes you feel great. Right? Like, no. Am I really supposed to be here? But I don't yeah. So there's some othering about that. And so post traditional is more inclusive, still descriptive, and is coming up in the research. Joisanne Rodgers [00:08:12]: More is the the term used. And that definition of that is, yes, 25 and older, but also anyone who has adult, and I'm putting air quotes around that that you can't see, adult responsibilities. So that includes those student parents, married, widowed, divorced, military and veteran connected, although, admittedly, there's a whole another set of criteria and things going on for those folks when we talk about JSTs and all these other things. But so it's more inclusive of that in a kind of a broader umbrella, and the term, the language to it is better, in my humble opinion, for that population. But then elevating that even more, talking about contemporary students at Mason, and our definition of that is, yes, our post traditional, but also our transfer students are part of that. Our off campus students are part of that as well. So those folks who, again, don't fit that traditional mold, who come in with more experience than the traditional student might. And it's really about honoring and seeing the folks, the students that are sitting in front of us and not the picture that we have in our head of 18 straight out of high school straight in has no other responsibilities living on campus. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:23]: I really appreciate that new framing of contemporary student. I'm also wondering how you connect that term to the students that you're serving because it might be new for them as well. Joisanne Rodgers [00:09:32]: It's absolutely new for them. It's also new for our faculty and staff as well. Mhmm. And so we've spent some time like I said, the contemporary student services or CSS was established before lockdown. And then lockdown happened, and there was a lot of turnover and a lot of changes, of course, as everybody's experienced. So in this post lockdown era, 3 of my 4 staff members, myself included, were new into CSS. And so that really gave us a chance to kind of reestablish ourselves and reach out and connect with the faculty and staff as well as the students across the institution to reintroduce, reconnect, and reestablish contemporary, what that is, what that looks like, and how the great thing is also that all of my staff members hold some contemporary identity. I was an adult learner. Joisanne Rodgers [00:10:26]: 1 of my coordinators is a transfer student. Another one is student parent. So we all hold those identities. So when we say peer, we mean it though we may not be in classes right now, it honestly wasn't that long ago that we were in that very same spot. And so having those conversations and having that lived experience really makes the biggest difference when we're connecting with students, but also when we're representing our students and advocating for our students. So, I'd like to say our work is about ACEs, a c e s. We advocate, celebrate, educate, and serve. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:58]: Okay. And we have to make sure that we're separating that ACES from adverse childhood experiences.  Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:04]: Yes, for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:05]: That's really helpful to kind of wrap our minds around this different conceptualization. You also said that George Mason is on the forefront of this new transition of how we're thinking about serving these very unique but growing populations at our university. Mhmm. How are you working with others in the field to kind of stabilize some of this and normalize it? Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:25]: Yeah. So we're doing a lot internally and then regionally and then nationally. Right? So we've partnered for some of our subpopulations. We've partnered with folks like Generation Hope and participated in a Family U cohort. We, in this last year, earned the Family U seal, which is really exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. We're super excited about that to kind of amplify and celebrate our work with student parents and caregiver caregivers. Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:54]: And but we're also working with our 1st generation center because the when you add 1st gen over over contemporary populations, that Venn diagram doesn't really get all that much bigger. It still stays real tight. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:05]: Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:12:06]: So we partner with our friends in 1st gen center, which are part of the 1st gen efforts through NASPA. And so having NASPA support in that is beautiful and really helpful. And we also are working with everyone from, for example, our Marcom, our marketing communications folks at the institution and in our university life space to make sure that there's visual representation of all of our students too. And so we wanna make sure that we're seeing that our students are seeing themselves in all of the collateral that happens in the marketing that happens across the institution and across the region because there are buses driving all over DC with Mason on them, and we want them to see themselves in that in that place and space too. And now we're looking at I'm here at NASPA. We're, taking that in. We're also Generation Hope is hosting their very first HOPE conference this year in New Orleans. So I'm going straight from NASPA to that conference Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:03]: To present, but also to take in what other folks are doing. And we're part of an Aspen network for Ascend. So we're really trying to connect in to work smarter, not harder, as I mentioned. So for us, we have, as I mentioned before, 4 full time professional staff members. We have a graduate student and student staff as well as an office manager. And sometimes I'm talking to folks and they say, oh my gosh. You only have 4 staff members to do that. And I talk to other folks, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:32]: You have 4 staff members. I'd love to have that. So we're in a great spot, kind of. And so looking at that too and making sure that as we're looking at emerging populations and looking at our work, that we're staying in a place where we can really help and advocate across the institution that we are not the only ones doing this work. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:55]: I think that's the important part of it too is as we're gathering ideas from NASPA sessions, as we're gathering ideas from Hope Conference sessions, some of my staff went to FYE this year. And gathering that information, it's about how do we partner, what are great ways that we can advocate, consult, do these things so that, ideally, all of our faculty and staff across Mason see this contemporary student work as their work too. Joisanne Rodgers [00:14:25]: And a lot of times, it's just having the conversation about the language or having a little bit of conversation about calling them in to that work and making just little tweaks and changes because most of the time they're doing it. They just don't know that they're doing it. Or we're saying, that's really great. What if you could? And kind of leveling it up. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:45]: There's a book for 1st gen student success that NASPA, I believe, is a co publisher on, or maybe the publisher on. I I don't know exactly, but there's a list in it about, like, the 15 or 25 things that you can do to support first gen students. And the messaging I always come back to with that is if it's good for 1st gen students, it's good for all students because it's really about teaching people how to navigate the system of higher education, creating new to the system don't have, the social capital to understand, and and I really hear the echoes of serving those first gen students with your contemporary students. And it just it's so great to see that you're creating synergy with your 1st gen success center as well. Joisanne Rodgers [00:15:28]: Absolutely. And you're 12,000 percent correct in that, like, that hidden curriculum, the paper ceilings that a lot of our adult learners and and folks are hitting, and that's what's bringing them back into our into higher ed. But also understanding this strange lexicon that they've either never encountered or it's been a really long time, or maybe they encountered it with their children when they were sending their kids to college, but they've never had to apply that to themselves. And so it works a little differently. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, those overlaps are spot on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:01]: I wanna talk a little bit about that dance theory component because with your origins being in the arts and dance theory, a lot of people that have never studied the arts in a formal context probably are saying I didn't know that there was theory to apply to to arts in that way. And we have those theories in music education and dance education. It's about how we teach learning. It's about how we absorb and create and a number of other things. So I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about 1 or 2 of the dance theories that you rely on and how you're transitioning those from context of the ballroom to context of contemporary Joisanne Rodgers [00:16:34]: students. Sure. So I have this kind of, like, running list of yes. There's, like, the formal theories and learning and and things like that, but I also kind of have this running list of things that always came from the director of the dance program, my undergrad, who doctor Jan Hyatt, love her, had these phrases that she always used that really stuck. And so a couple of those I think I have a list of, like, 10 or 15 in my notebook that have come with me all of these years later. And so the one that I use most frequently is you have to put the support in place before you need it. So whether you're executing a dance move, whether you're like, you don't just start playing for music, like, you just don't start playing. You ready yourself, instrument up, fingering, all of those things. Joisanne Rodgers [00:17:20]: Right? And so even when you're taking a step forward, your body is you do it unconsciously, more likely than not, but your body is putting these supports in place so that when you step forward, you don't fall flat on your face. Mhmm. So it's the same thing. We're talking about emerging populations. There were changes in Pell Grant rules and regs that open possibilities for previously incarcerated folks. That means that's that's opening up this emerging population. We've been looking at that population for the last year and a half or so, doing some research, doing some interviews, and putting together toolkits so that we can put the support in place before we need it. Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:17:57]: So, yes, some of those students already exist in our population, but we know that the possibility of more is coming. So we're putting that support in place before we need it. Just like if we were stepping forward, we don't wanna fall on our faces. Not that it's gonna work perfectly. Right? Practice and test and learns, that's how we come at it, but applying that. The other thing that I will say from her, mainly because this links directly into the podcast, is life is in the transitions. And so the importance of a move to the space in between the two moves is just as important as hitting your point or hitting the move or those kinds of things. And so that transition space and time is when things happen. Joisanne Rodgers [00:18:37]: Like, that's where the good stuff happens. And so that is always part of what I remind myself of as things are happening, and I translate that into the work and kind of the business y thing of, like, testing test and learns. Right? It's always a process and it's an iterative process. Speaking of more theory, formal theory, is one of my favorite quotes from Margaret Dobler is, where the sum total are experiences Mhmm. And that's the only way we can show up, and that's the only way that we can react, which to me says meet the students where they are. Like, those things are very, if not exactly the same, very, very similar, which is a tenet of student affairs. Right? How many times do you hear folks say meet the students where they are? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:19]: Mhmm. That tenet has been one of the major constants through NASPA's existence, I think. You know, the organization itself is, I think, a 100 ish years old, and the the core of NASPA's philosophies have been fairly constant over time. I had the pleasure of interviewing some folks, it was maybe 3 years ago at this point, who were the administrators at Kent State University during the Kent State situation, situation. And they read me the NASPA manual from that year, and it was all still relevant. So it's really interesting to see how the way that we approach the work has changed a lot over time and we've become more justice focused, we've become more inclusive, we've become broader in who we serve, but we are still keeping that core of we're trying to help college students and young adults kind of realize their full selves in that out of classroom space, continue to show up as our best. Joisanne Rodgers [00:20:08]: Yeah. Keeping that good stuff as the core. Absolutely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:11]: I'm wondering if you could tell us how folks might be able to read more about these new evolutions in serving contemporary students. Because we're not seeing that research necessarily show up as boldly in some of the major journals, but there's so much work that is, I think, the future of what's happening in American higher education, specifically. Joisanne Rodgers [00:20:28]: Yeah. I think when we're looking at research, we get really specific. So for me, when I was doing, for example, my dissertation research and doing my lit review, it was a lot of looking at the specific subpopulations. Student parent, parenting student, all the variations of that. And so looking at that broader space, you know, I think about all of the advice that I got as I was constructing my research questions and things like that. And without fail, the first I would like to say 2 to 3, but it was probably more like 6 to 8 times. It was like, no. You gotta get narrower. Joisanne Rodgers [00:21:12]: It's like you're you're gonna you're never gonna get this done if you don't get specific. And so I think that's what's hard is that post traditional is so big and broad, contemporary is so big and broad, and so we talk a lot and there's a lot of research about those subpopulations, but looking at that in the broader sense is a little harder. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:31]: You just said what every doctoral student has heard, too much pain. Right? Like, please please narrow your focus. I'm working with a person right now who is trying to narrow their focus from studying a population that is millions of people and going, oh, I just wanna study the population. Okay. But what about that population? And it's just so important for doctoral students to remember this is the first time you'll do independent research, not the last time. Yes. That's a hard lesson to learn, I think. Joisanne Rodgers [00:22:00]: Yeah. It absolutely I did a lit review on contemporary students, what would I be doing, and how would I look at these subpopulations, and how would I bring this together? And then thinking about those big, over arching Mhmm. Needs that are identified in that in that literature. So coordination of service being one of those, access and not necessarily access to education, which might be where your brain goes immediately when I say access, but it's really access to information. Mhmm. It's that social capital piece. Exactly. And so having those and having a not just a group of peers, but a group of peers that reflect their identities Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:22:46]: And whatever is most salient in the moment. So we know that for adult learners in particular, and this is true across all contemporary populations, but if they have a peer group that is just traditional students, it's not great. It can be detrimental. Mhmm. So helping them find their community and find their village, I've been at Mason I don't know. It feels like maybe 12 minutes. Really, it was probably a couple months. And one of our student parents who is working with us with Generation Hope was our student parent fellow. Valeria said at a convening, said everybody says it takes a village. Joisanne Rodgers [00:23:26]: But not everybody has one. Mhmm. And that just I was like, yeah. Exactly. That, like, just hit me, and it was this beautiful encapsulation Joisanne Rodgers [00:23:38]: Of everything that we were talking about, of students coming in and not having what they need, but that we could help and we could connect them, and we could be a village. We could be part of that support network and system. And not being a student parent, but being an auntie of, like, in with my best friend who was a student parent. She was getting her MBA, and my goddaughter was really, really tiny. And I was doing my doctorate, and so we were trading off for doing homework and hanging out with the kiddo and all of those things. And so I get that village. I'm like, I am a villager. We can be villagers. Joisanne Rodgers [00:24:15]: Let's do it. But that's not just true for our student parents and caregivers. It's true for many of our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:22]: You just gave one great example of what that can look like in practice. I'm wondering if you have any other practice elements that you think is important for our listenerships. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:24:29]: I think the big things for us that we've gotten really big positive feedback on are several things. 2 that I'll pull out is 1, we have community spaces that we plan out early so that we can let our students get those on their calendars and make notes so that they can make the time. We'll also do multimodal, so sometimes they'll be in person, sometimes they'll be online, so they can connect with each other. And it's really it's truly just a space of, like, we're providing the space, but our students our student workers, we've created, student ambassador positions that work differently than your traditional student worker position where you're asking for 15 or 20 hours a week. Those aren't working for all of our contemporary students, particularly for our adult learners, our student parents, and military veteran connected folks. Many of them are already living in time poverty, so asking for 15 to 20 hours a week, not gonna happen. Mhmm. So we created these ambassador positions that are right now, I think we have them set to, like, 50, 55 hours over the entirety of the semester. Joisanne Rodgers [00:25:37]: Okay. And we have a stipend that's attached to that because their lived experience is important, and if we're doing things for them, we wanna do that with them. And so those students are supporting those spaces and coming up with ideas of activities or topics and connections. So that's one thing that has been really great, and it's really helped our students build their own villages and build their their success network across the Mason community too because we also invite our colleagues into that space and into our lounge that we have on campus. I think the other thing is that, like every other population, we have us the contemporary student appreciation week. But we do that in April, and at the end of the week, we have a graduation celebration for our contemporary students. So we have contemporary student courts that they can come and pick up and wear at commencement. But at the graduation celebration, if they haven't already grabbed those, we have those available for them. Joisanne Rodgers [00:26:35]: But we encourage them to bring their village. We don't limit the number of folks that they can bring. We want them to bring their kids. We have kids' activities at the at the event. We want them to bring their parents. We want them to bring whoever is supporting them and has been a champion for them, including Mason faculty and staff. So So when they RSVP for that event, we ask them, who's been a champion for you? Who really made a difference? Is there a professor, a staff member, a community member that really just lifted you up or amplified or advocated for you or just was there and supportive and would listen? And when they identify the folks, we send them an invite. You know, like, come celebrate with us. Joisanne Rodgers [00:27:16]: And so we have this really great mix of students and their families and faculty and staff, and our VP comes and talks, and our AVP, and it's just this really beautiful event. We give them a whole bunch of, like, different areas. They can take pictures, and it's just a really beautiful event that kind of setting yourself up for success when you do a graduation celebration. That part I won't lie about. I know. Like, we're already starting at a 7 out of 10. But those connections are also really great in that space of having gratitude at the end of this journey that was not easy. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:27:50]: There isn't anybody in that room being like, this was a breeze. Glad to see I'm out. No. Everybody in that room is, this was a hard one situation. Mhmm. And I had to make some hard decisions. I had to make some really difficult priority management decisions, And I just have some really interesting conversations with my partner, with my kids about, it's homework time. You do your homework. Joisanne Rodgers [00:28:15]: I'm doing my homework. This is what we've gotta do. But at the end, it wasn't easy, but it wasn't worth it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:21]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:27]: Thanks so much, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a number of professional development opportunities that are coming up in the future that some of you may have an interest in. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is coming up December 10th through December 13th, and the call for programs ends on May 9, 2024. The Women's Leadership Institute provides an experience that offers strategies for women to succeed in the higher education profession. Participants include women with from facilities and operations, administration, auxiliary services, student affairs, recreation, and libraries who share a passion for the profession and plan to lead with lasting impact. This is a joint venture between NASPA and ACUI and a great opportunity for anyone looking to hone their leadership skills for working in a rapidly changing environment while also developing a better understanding of the campus as a workplace and culture and being able to connect with others to share experiences about how campuses are adapting and adjusting to the new reality that surrounds us. Early registration goes through October 21st, but the big deadline right now, as I mentioned at the beginning, is the call for programs, which does end on May 9, 2024. Some of the leadership cycle topics that are encouraged include topics surrounding supervision and performance management, strategic planning, financial well-being, upskillreskill, the bridge to the future, delegating and giving away, picking up new skills and putting things down. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:00]: I highly encourage you to consider putting in a program proposal and if not, consider attending this amazing professional development opportunity. You can find out more on the NASPA website. The 2024 NASPA M. Ben Hogan Small Colleges and Universities Institute is coming up June 23rd through 26th in Portland, Oregon. This institute is hosted on a biannual basis by NASPA Small College and Universities Division. The Institute is a 4 day residential program, during which vice presidents for student affairs and the equivalent and other senior level leaders engage in discussion and reflection about critical issues in student affairs and examine effective and innovative programs. There's still time to register under the early registration deadline, which is April 30, 2024. This Institute offers amazing opportunities for individuals working at small colleges and universities to be able to build lasting friendships and connections that will help them to be able to lead their own units at their own institutions in new ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:04]: If you've never attended this professional development in the past, I highly encourage you to attend this year. You definitely don't want to miss this opportunity to be able to connect, be rejuvenated and to prepare yourself to lead your organization to the next level. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is happening December 9th through December 11th in Philadelphia. This is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA, College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for Leadership Programs. LEI provides a unique opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on your campus. The Leadership Institute creates a space for student affairs administrators, scholars, and practitioners to discuss and advance current leadership topics, such as modern leadership theories and models, including new research, applications and critical perspectives, innovative and inclusive curriculum, pedagogy, and strategies for leadership studies courses, assessment and evaluation of leadership programs, student development and learning outcomes, future directions in leadership education and development based on widely used studies and standards such as the multi institutional study of leadership, CAS, and ILA guiding questions, unique co curricular program models and high impact practices, including those with cohort and multi year engagement, distance and online learning, service learning, mentoring, and global experiences. Strategy and management of leadership program operations, including staff training, funding, and partnerships, as well as interdissectional and interdisciplinary approaches to leadership education. If you are someone that is leading leadership training and leadership development of students on your own campus or wish to be a part of that in the future, this professional development is a must go to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:06]: Registration is now open. Pre early registration ends on June teenth with early registration ending on September 9th. Find out more on the NASPA website. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:14]: Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:42]: Chris, thank you so much for another great addition of NASPA World. We really appreciate you keeping us informed on what's going around in and around NASPA. And, Joisanne, we have reached our lightning round. Oh. I've got 7 questions for you. 90 seconds. Oh my. Alright. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:56]: I'm ready. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:00]: your entrance music be? Ain't No Man, The Avett Brothers. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:03]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:06]: I wanted to be a teacher because student affairs professional, not on the kindergarten chart.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:12]: True story. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:17]: I had a list. I talked about Jan, which is important. I think in the place and space that I'm in right now, it's my current supervisor, Sally Laurenson, and she has been amazing. Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Oh my gosh. Everything. Consume everything you can and run it through the lens of you and your life and your strengths and your institution. Number 5. Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:45]: The best TV show you binged during the pandemic. I feel like I should say The Chair, because it just is absolutely directly related, but really the guilty pleasure version of that is Love is Blind. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:57]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Joisanne Rodgers [00:36:00]: Oh, that one's easy. Malcolm Gladwell revisionist history. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:04]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Joisanne Rodgers [00:36:08]: Oh, my gosh. Everybody. I stand on the shoulders of giants is really what that is. So I have this really amazing family that despite not having a lens necessarily for what I do is still a 1000% in. And when I say things like, I'm sorry. I can't come home for Thanksgiving if you want me home at Christmas. They were not thrilled about it, but they made it work and were lovely the whole time, and I know that was difficult. And so I love them, but, also, I've had the privilege of working with some really great folks and having people like Ted Smith, who was my first RD, who told me this could be a job, and support from folks at Allegheny, as well as then moving into my first professional position at Western Kentucky University and having this group of folks who were in it and wanted everyone to succeed in just this really great village of folks that supported me in that and helped me learn how to be a professional in that place and space. Joisanne Rodgers [00:37:10]: And my first supervisor, Nick Wired, and Brian Powell, and Ben Ellis just absolutely giving me space and grace to fail fast and forward, and supporting me in that, and having a leadership team, particularly in in HRL, but also in my internships and things like that. So my Western Kentucky family, my Hilltopper family being great support in that as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:38]: Joisanne, I know I learned a lot from you today, and I'm sure there are others who have. If they'd like to reach out to you, how can they find you? Joisanne Rodgers [00:37:44]: Absolutely. You can find me on LinkedIn. Look at the ad for my name. It's spelled a little differently than you might think, but I'm pretty easy to find. So connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a note, add a note to that that you heard me here and ask some questions. I'm always happy to answer those or jump on a Zoom with someone and chat about what's going on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:03]: Thank you so much, Joisanne, for sharing your voice with us today. Joisanne Rodgers [00:38:06]: Absolutely. Thank you for having Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:10]: me. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:44]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

**Breaking Ground as a First-Generation Trailblazer**  In this episode of SA Voices From The Field Dr. Jill Creighton had the chance to speak with Alejandra Campoverdi, a formidable force advocating for women's health and an inspiration for many first-generation college students. Her memoir, 'First Gen: A Memoir,' beautifully encapsulates the emotional complexities that accompany the breaking of generational barriers, a theme that resonates deeply with many of our podcast's listeners. Alejandra's narrative is both personal and universal, detailing her own struggle with panic attacks and other challenges as she navigated the social ladders of legacy-based institutions. Her experience in the White House, and the pivotal role mentors played in her journey, offers a powerful testament to the lasting impact of educators and advocates across different walks of life. **Legacy and the Emotional Rhyme of Generations** Alejandra poetically introduces the concept of 'generational rhyming,' drawing lines between the past and present experiences. By reflecting on the courage of women in her family—those who confidently stepped away from chaotic relationships while carrying the burden of pregnancy—Alejandra emphasizes the inheritance of resilience and the personal choice to either continue or modify the legacy we carry forward. **The Cultural Tapestry of Health and Sacrifice** This episode also delves into Alejandra's advocacy for women's health, illustrating the interweaving of cultural expectations and individual wellness. Her frank discussion on BRCA mutation and confronting a familial pattern of breast cancer underscores the critical necessity of breaking cycles, not only socially and economically but also health-wise. **Systemic Issues and the Imposter Experience** Alejandra's views on 'imposter syndrome' are particularly enlightening, challenging the notion that it stems solely from personal insecurity rather than also being rooted in systemic disparities. This perspective invites a broader conversation on the structural changes needed to support and validate the experiences of those breaking new ground. **Connecting with Alejandra Campoverdi** Listeners can reach out to Alejandra Campoverdi via her DMs on Instagram, LinkedIn, or her website. Her gracious acknowledgment of her mentors, including her former White House boss, and her thanks to the NASPA family and Dina from the First Gen Center, that manifests an ecosystem of support that many 'firsts' heavily rely on.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back essay voices. It was amazing to run into so many of you at the annual conference, and thank you again for continuing to listen to us. Today, we're gonna be releasing the first of several annual conference episodes, and we were thrilled to sit down with the closing keynote speaker, Alejandra Campaverdi. Alejandra is a nationally recognized women's health advocate, best selling author, founder, producer, and former White House aide to President Obama. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: Alejandra's memoir, First Gen: A Memoir, examines the often unacknowledged emotional tolls of being a trailblazer. A national bestseller, 1st Gen is the winner of the California Independent Booksellers Alliance Golden Poppy Martin Cruz Smith Award and long listed for the outstanding works of literature award for the 1st year experience. 1st Gen is also the 2024 Opportunity Matters book club selection for the Council For Opportunity in Education, a national book club for 1st generation and low income students at colleges and universities across the country. Previously, Alejandra served in the Obama White House as the 1st White House deputy director of Hispanic Media. She produced and appeared in the groundbreaking PBS documentary, Inheritance, and founded the Latinos and BRCA Awareness Initiative in partnership with Penn Medicine's Master Center for BRCA. Alejandra holds a master in public policy from Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government and graduated cum laude from USC. She currently serves on the boards of Harvard's Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy, and the California Community Foundation. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:50]: We were able to have this one live in person, so you may notice some slight audio differences in quality. Please enjoy and we're also going to be bringing you couple more bonus episodes throughout the next couple of weeks. Alejandra, welcome to SA Voices. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:03]: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:05]: I am really excited to get to know you a little bit and we really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to talk to SA Voices here in Seattle. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:12]: I know. It's fun to be in Seattle. Right? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:13]: Is this your first time? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:14]: No. I was actually here a few weeks ago for another conference, but I had so much fun eating my way through the city. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:20]: Oh, what was your favorite thing? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:22]: That was a lot. The crumpets over at the Pike Place Market, incredible. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: Crumpets. Okay. That's a new one. Most of my friends say Top Pot Donuts is their their jam or, I haven't been to the crumpet spot. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:35]: This is my hometown so it's always fun for me to see people discover it through fresh eyes. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:39]: Nice. Well, you have to give us your tips then. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:42]: Really, it's just don't eat downtown. I think it's my biggest tip. Most of my friends and family enjoy restaurants kind of more out in the community. But we are glad to have you here as our closing keynote speaker for NASPA 2024 here in Seattle. On our theme of transitions, you were just an excellent guest to have to talk about all the transitions you've gone through in your life. Your book right now is 1st Gen, a memoir, and that has been just a really beautiful read. I've been able to take a look at least the first couple of chapters and and really kind of get to know you through that lens. But I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about your journey as you've written about it. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:03:17]: Well, thank you for reading it, Amy. I feel really honored to be invited to speak at NASPA. As I say in the book, the reason why I felt compelled to write it really was because, you know, as someone who was a Pell Grant recipient myself and grew up in a lot of pipeline programs and nonprofits, when I would go and speak to young people, especially students even before this book was even an idea in my mind, I noticed that there seemed to be a lot kind of hanging in the air. Some mixed emotions and almost like looks on folks' faces that I recognize on my own face at these kind of transitional achievement moments that should kind of be 1 dimensional but kind of weren't. And as I noticed that, I started kind of changing the way that I would speak and the kinds of stories I would share. And the more vulnerable I was about how it was harder than many times we're led on to believe in inspirational speeches, really helped crystallize for me how much of not only my own experience but a lot of our experiences have some shame around them that there are conflicting emotions that we don't always share even though they're so completely widespread. And a lot of it namely about the emotional toll of social mobility and the American dream as it's been presented to us. And, you know, in the book, I really talk about how it's for first and only. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:04:45]: I call us first and only because it isn't just this gatekeeper definition of who has a right to kinda like that first gen experience. I understand that in in academia and in different institutions, you need to have a definition of who qualifies and doesn't qualify. But for this emotional experience in the book, it's about being as inclusive as possible because this experience of cycle breaking and that emotional toll transcends race and gender and and so many different experiences. So that was a lens that I discussed this with, and I really use my own story growing up, you know, as the daughter of a single mom who had immigrated from Mexico a few years before I was born to kind of be the companion of walking through a lot of these different dynamics. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:33]: You talk about generational rhyming in your book as part of that transition story. Can you talk to us about what you mean by that? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:05:39]: Well, as a part of this book, I named something called the trailblazer tool. And I don't name that from a position of authority as someone who is a trauma specialist or an academic or a specialist in psychology or so on. The reason why I do that is because as I mentioned, you can't heal from that which you don't name. Mhmm. And so how do we create space for this holistic view that doesn't only include imposter syndrome but includes the way that being a cycle breaker first and only moves throughout our entire life even before we get to school and for many, many years after. You know, once by the time you're a 1st gen student, you've been 1st gen already many times over and you'll continue to be 1st gen. And so to that point, how is it that this even began pre birth? When you're thinking about generational inheritance and emotional inheritances, when you're looking for those answers, they say history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:06:35]: Well, what is the rhyme that is coming from our family? And they're not just negative. Many are positive. It's not just about generational trauma. It's about emotional inheritances and those I call them invisible inheritances. Many times they're intertwined. Many times, you know, you're looking at the fact in my instance, I have a great grandmother and a mother who both left very chaotic borderline abusive relationships while they were pregnant. Mhmm. Now that's not an inheritance that I would wanna continue. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:07:06]: Yet if you say it a little differently, I have 2 women in my family that left these relationships while they were pregnant. I mean, think of the strength and fortitude it takes to do something like that. So, I mean, I'm proud to be a a beneficiary of that inheritance. And then the third part is the inheritances that we choose to perpetuate as our own future ancestors right now. You know, every day, we have a choice to become a better ancestor. Mhmm. So those are the rhymes that not only we're coming into these lives with, but the rhymes that we're choosing to continue and be intentional about and maybe tweak a little bit. That intentionality is a lot of the end game because I don't have all the answers and this book doesn't pretend like it has all the answers. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:07:51]: But it's about validating and acknowledging a lot of what as first and only is we almost feel like we don't know have the privilege too many times. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:58]: I'm wondering if you can talk to us a bit about being a first generation student who entered collegiate spaces that are really legacy based institutions where maybe you're entering with classmates who have multiple generations of people who went to those institutions who know how they work, who understand the nuance and the subtleties of social culture and enter with a lot more social capital on how to engage in those worlds and how you found yourself evolving into those spaces and ultimately thriving in them. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:08:25]: Well, just how Invisible Inheritance is kind of where we start, you know, a couple steps forward is what I call chutes and social ladders. And I don't know if you remember the board game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chutes and Ladders. And the reason why I named it that was because that's what it kind of felt like to me. You know, you land on the right spot. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:08:44]: You do everything just right and you shoot into this different social class, into this different just like societal plane that feels so foreign, yet if you've messed up, God forbid don't do it just perfectly, you can backslide completely out of it. Right? Yeah. Without warning sometimes. Absolutely. And it feels really precarious. And to me, that made sense to me as a way to look at it. In the book, I talk about the familial chaos that I was in, this kind of pressure cooker, as well as in the romantic relationship that I highlight in the book. That's also something else that was, you know, leading to a lot of personal angst. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:09:25]: Mhmm. Yet the way that I was dealing with that was in a lot of ways of trying to kind of stabilize and have some semblance of control in my life by overachieving. Mhmm. You know, how that overachieving and sometimes that perfectionism can be as well as ambition, but can also be a coping mechanism for trauma. Right? And so I was making myself a really good college applicant at the same time as I was really struggling with a lot of issues around this kind of dynamics in my home and my relationships. So by the time I get to USC, it was one blurry summer apart from a very different kind of cultural experience where if anything, I was teased for, quote, acting white because I would get good grades. But then you get to college, and I remember by then, I was already struggling very much with panic attacks and panic disorder, and I had my mom be on campus with me. I grew up under 20 miles from USC's campus but had never visited. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:10:27]: You know, you don't visit colleges. Who does that? Like, what is that? So my mom is there with me pushing this running stroller around with my little sister, and I just didn't want her to be out of my sight because I felt so much pressure. Like, a lot of these students I know. I hear from them. I'm traveling around the country right now talking to them. So much pressure that not only did I have to do this to kind of this was my chance to, you know, break that cycle of poverty, but this was also my chance to help my mom, to help my family. You know, it was this kinda like double layer of stress. And my mom went to the parent orientation and I'm sitting there and feeling that, and all of a sudden, my ears start ringing. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:11:05]: Everything starts getting spinny, and I run out of Boulevard Auditorium in USC and pass out in the middle of campus. So when I came to, somebody had gone to get my mom, and we went to the health center, and then they gave me a prescription and, you know, sent me on my way. And I remember sitting on a bench with her and thinking, oh my god. Am I gonna be able to do this? I worked so hard to be able to get there, and it felt like everything was within grasp that I had dreamed of, that we had dreamed of. But I didn't know if I could physically do it because all of these experiences and these emotional experiences that we're talking about had started catching up with me. Mhmm. You know, and that's that's not something that's unique to me. Right? Because there's a saying I point to in the book, when you're skating over thin ice, your speed is your safety. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:11:52]: Mhmm. And many times that's what it feels like when you're cycle breaking and you're kind of trying to adjust to these new kinda stratosphere jumps, you don't have time to really process what's happening. You're just kind of surviving and morphing and adapting however you can. And there was a lot that was coming up for me at that time. I was fortunate that, you know, my mom was able to help me kind of navigate a little bit but in a lot of ways I ended up experiencing a whole another big jump that was difficult to recalibrate. At the time, my mom, not knowing any better, encouraged me to get involved with the Greek system. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:30]: Okay. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:12:30]: And we can imagine at that time, USC in the late nineties, early 2000, you know, that was like taking me to the most extreme example of kind of world jumping and recalibrating and understanding what that meant for my Latinidad and how it expressed itself on campus. How I was able to show up and fit into a system that had experiences that were beyond my comprehension and how it is that I was able to do that and manage all that while at the same time trying to keep up with grades. And it it was a lot. And I go into this a lot deeper in the book about what that felt like, but I definitely don't. And I'm not saying now nor do I say in the book that I figured it all out. Mhmm. The point was that I was white knuckling it. The point was that I was surviving in that space in those spaces as best I could, but not really understanding a lot of the dynamics that they weren't personal to me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:32]: Like many women of color who are leading in new spaces, you've had transitions in this academic space, you've had transitions with health, and you've had transitions in career. So I wanna talk a little bit about your transitions in health because you're well known as a women's health advocate. When you were going through your own health transitions, how did you balance that with everything else that was going on in the world? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:13:53]: Well, I didn't know that I because I'm a BRCA mutation carrier, hereditary cancer in my family, but I didn't know that until I was in my thirties. So what I did know was that women in my family tended to all get breast cancer. And until my mom's generation, they would pass away from breast cancer. So it was especially when my mom was diagnosed and I was in my early twenties, that was a really pivotal time as far as just graduating from school and trying to figure out, I call it the lonely hustle, how to kind of go after my dreams without any safety net. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:28]: Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:14:28]: When my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer, I realized I didn't really have the privilege to do that. I had a little sister that I assumed I was gonna be a single mom too. And so I went home to help take care of my mom during that time and, you know, slept on the air mattress in her living room. And as far as I was concerned, that was it. Your parents, a lot of times, you feel like they sacrifice so much for you to have these opportunities and that feels especially in the dynamics and the cultural dynamics in a lot of our communities that that's a collectivist mindset about what it means when you drop everything to be able to take care of the family unit. And so I didn't realize back then that that was something that I was also going to have to face. Mhmm. But breast cancer has been an ongoing drumbeat throughout my entire life. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:15:17]: You know, I don't go into my own journey with breast cancer in this book because this book ends before that happens. But, you know, when you're thinking about cycle breaking even with our own bodies, you know, how it is we disrupt these cycles in our families and the choice that I made to have preventative surgery at the time, not knowing that when it was after the fact of the surgery, we would discover in retrospect that actually I did have an active breast cancer already developing, which validated that choice. But all that to say is our health is another way that we're able to try to break some of these cycles. And I always say, you know, like one of the the biggest cycles that we can break and we don't always think about is to give ourselves the privilege of rest and balance and that kind of wellness on every different level because we can break cycles of poverty. We can be the first to go to college. We can be the first to have a job or buy a house or so on. But unless we do some of this inner work, one of the biggest cycles that can lead to illness in our body but for sure in our minds and our emotional health is not gonna get broken.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:32]: When you think about cycle break in your own life, what advice do you give to others on how they can also engage in that work? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:16:36]: I think that the first step is to be conscious of it, to acknowledge it. And that's the energy that this book is written in for us to know ourselves and for us to know each other and for us to know that we're not alone in these experiences because a lot of it feels so isolating and a lot of it feels just really personal. And if I I've learned anything I mean, I've been to dozens of colleges now across the country. I've been really blessed to speak to so many educators as well. And it's the same experience of nodding everywhere that I go. Mhmm. Nodding in tears and acknowledgement. And sometimes people will raise their hands and I remember I was speaking in Miami, and this gentleman raised his hand. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:17:17]: He said, how do you deal with, like, the loneliness? And he started crying. And I looked out at the crowd, and I and I tell you, there were so many people crying. And I told them, I said, well, take a look around. Do you feel alone? Look at all these people that that are feeling the same thing you're feeling. And that's what the energy that this book is hopefully calling us to, which is to take a look around and acknowledge all the nodding heads. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:45]: I think one of the most powerful things you do in this book is give voice to a common experience that a lot of people are afraid to talk about or afraid to say out loud because we live in a capitalist society. We're fearful of being perceived as, you know, not always out in front of things sometimes. So I really appreciate that you're naming a lot of this, and it's clearly resonating with audiences around the country, and I'm sure will be very resonant for our NASPA members here, especially for our professionals who are 1st and onlys or are there 1st gen in their family to attain a university degree and then likely an advanced degree, and now we're all working in this field where a lot of people don't really understand our work. It's kind of an ongoing joke in student affairs that even our own parents don't understand what we do on a daily basis. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:18:26]: And I write about that in the book that that's a loneliness inducing experience as as well that I write about when you go home. And I mean, I would come home from the White House and I wouldn't get questions about my work, and that's at a neutral level. Then there's the hands of the students where they raise their hands and say, I'm dissuaded from doing these things. They're told, like, why are you doing this? Why don't you get a more job where you make more money? Why would you study abroad? That's a waste of your time. Almost kind of getting this negative messaging. But to your point, that's why I feel so honored to be speaking here at NASPA because on so many different levels, a, you guys are the ones on the ground. You guys are the ones on the ground with these students every day working so hard and doing so much to support the leaders of the future. And also because I see very clearly how many of the educators I'm speaking to are literally these students who also had the same experience. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:19:23]: You know, we get called to the work that we do, whether it's writing books or being an educator because of something usually very personal. We're called to something because of the empathy many times that we have for experiences. And like I said earlier, the book is written not just about that part of the student experience. There's many many chapters about what happens when you're on the other side of the sausage maker, which is all of us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:49]: Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:19:50]: And you're gonna spit out the other side and you're like, okay, woah, what happened? Because there is a point where you're the arc of the first gen experience kind of concludes. That doesn't mean that you don't have ambitions for the future and you don't have all these other things you wanna accomplish, but that initial kind of ascension into breaking out of certain cycles, same things that originally was driving me? Are they the same things or have they shifted? And if they've shifted, then how is it that I show up differently? You also name feelings of imposter syndrome in Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:31]: the book, especially when you're first invited into the White House spaces and during your process of getting top secret security clearance and all of those things. How did you work through those feelings of imposter syndrome even though you're sitting in some of the most powerful spaces in the world at that point in time and knowing that so many of our listeners are facing impostor syndrome in their own careers even though, you know, we're all qualified to be in the spaces we're in? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:20:53]: Well, one of the things that I really make a point to highlight in the book is I actually really have a problem with the idea of impostor syndrome as it was presented to me. I'll make it personal, as I've seen it be presented also in general, is the idea that it really is about this crisis of confidence singularly and not about the second part of it, the other side of the coin, which is no matter how confident we are, how it is that the way that we show up or we're received in these spaces and in these kind of constructs that is reflected back to us sometimes that we don't belong in ways that are subtle and not so subtle at times. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:29]: I think imposter syndrome syndrome's a system issue personally. Right? It's 2 ways. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:21:34]: Exactly. I mean, it's 2 ways. We we still have to acknowledge our contributions and show up in that space and there's systemic issues at play too. And so that's the lens through which I talk about it at that time at the White House and not just at the White House, but that nuance, I think, is helpful because I know when I used to blame myself for feeling a lack of confidence, it's not fair on top of everything else. It's also we're pointing the arrow directly back at students to just feel more confident and not acknowledging the dynamics with which they're operating. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:14]: Is there anything else you want our NASPA membership to hear from you today? Just that Alejandra Campoverdi [00:22:18]: I had several inflection points that I talk about in the book that really had to do with either an educator or a mentor, someone in a position of power saying something, doing something that completely changed my life. And I wasn't someone who had mentors that would follow my life for decades. You know, it was these angels that sometimes would step in and sometimes would derail, you know. Sometimes people help you in ways that are positive and negative to kinda get you back on track. Mhmm. But the point is that these people in my life and certain things they said and didn't encourage me to do changed everything. And so I like I said, my message is gratitude to this community for being the in the spaces between the bullet points because that's what I call it in the book. That's what the book is. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:23:08]: I wanted to write something that didn't just look at the bullet points on my resume or in my bio the same way that all of us have our schools and our achievements and our jobs, but that's not where the real story lies. It's really in the spaces between those bullet points and that's where you guys are. That's where the whole story goes one way or another. And so it's just expressing my gratitude for the work that you do and for the way that you're changing lives every day. Before we go to our break, I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:37]: would be remiss if I didn't ask how cool is it to be on Air Force Alejandra Campoverdi [00:23:40]: There's nothing cooler. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:43]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:49]: Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world. And today, I am really excited to be able to share some amazing news. If you missed it, an email was sent out after the annual conference that NASPA has selected a new president. We are thrilled to share with you that the outcome of the national search of the NASPA president has concluded. And after a thoughtful and deliberate process spanning the past 6 months, the NASPA board of directors have selected Dr. Amelia Parnell as the next President of NASPA. You may know Amelia the from her work as vice president for research and policy at NASPA, a position that she's held since 2015. In this role, she has selected the association's research policy and publications portfolio, providing critical thought and support to the membership. She oversees large scale projects, represents NASPA globally, is speaking engagements in the media, and leads analysis of applicable federal and state legislation and regulatory developments. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:53]: Over the past 8 years, Amelia has secured over $22,000,000 in philanthropic funding, represented NASPA through service to over 20 organizations, including the US Department of Education, and served as the chair of the governing board for the Higher Ed Equity Network and Chair of the Finance and Investment Committee for the EDUCAUSE Board of Directors. Additionally, she has led an 18 month examination of the future of student affairs, overseeing a large volunteer and staff task force and engaging in listening sessions with NASPA members. Prior to NASPA, Amelia served as Director of Research Initiatives at the Association For Institutional Research and Director of National Survey Research for the Association For Institutional Research. From 2005 to 2012, she served as education policy analyst for the Florida Legislature. Amelia has authored numerous scholarly articles and has been regularly quoted in national and trade publications. She is author of the recent book, You Are a Data Person, Strategies for Using Analytics on Campus, which has sold over 3,000 copies to date and is widely used by institutions across the country. She is also a faculty member for the Institute on ePortfolios of the American Association of Colleges and Universities. Amelia holds a BS and MBA in Business Administration from Florida A&M University and a PhD in Higher Education from Florida State University. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:21]: Beyond Amelia's credentials and organizational knowledge, the search committee and the board were most impressed by her vision for continuing to position NASPA as an indispensable organization serving the student affairs profession and higher education more broadly. Her collaborative leadership style combined with her extensive experience and genuine commitment to student success set her apart in a strong and diverse field of applicants for the position. Emilia will begin her tenure as president on July 1, 2024, at which time Kevin Kruger will become president emeritus. As we continue to move toward this next chapter in NASPA's story, we wanna thank the NASPA president search committee and especially the co chairs, Betty Simmons, retired vice president of student development enrollment management at County College of Morris and Pat Whiteley, senior vice president for student affairs and alumni engagement at the University of Miami. These volunteers gave so much of their time to ensure that the next leader of NASPA would be someone who can build on the successes of the last 12 years and position the organization to help its members face the challenges that we know lie ahead. In selecting Amelia, they have done exactly that. We would also like to extend our thanks to the team at Korn Kari for their counsel and support in this search. Our largest congratulations go out to doctor Amelia Parnell, past guest of the show, and we will be having her in the future to talk about that vision for NASPA. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:47]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:12]: Chris, thank you so much for this week's edition of NASPA World. We always appreciate you keeping us updated on what's going around in and around NASPA. And, Alejandra, we have our lightning round questions now. I've got 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:26]: Okay. Let's go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:27]: Alright. Question number 1. Since you are a conference keynote speaker, if you got to choose your entrance music, what would it be? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:33]: Well, I don't know if it's a known fact but First Gen has a playlist cause each chapter title is a song. So I'm gonna pick one of the songs off of the playlist which is Fast Car, Tracy Chapman version though. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:46]: Oh, she just performed recently. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:47]: Oh, so good. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:47]: Love her. So good. I'm gonna sidetrack us and say where can people find your playlist? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:51]: It's on Spotify and in the back of the book, there's a link. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:54]: Alright. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:58]: When I was 5 years old, I wanted to be Cinderella. I actually write about that in the book. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:05]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:08]: My most influential professional mentor was my boss at the White House for a lot of reasons and I I actually there's a whole scene in the book about the way she modeled to me what true leadership was like and really had the power to be able to either support me or not support me in a very pivotal moment at the beginning of the book. And she, to this day, is somebody who's still in my life and threw me a book party when the book came out, which meant a lot. So I would have to say her. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:38]: Number 4, your essential higher education read. I'd be remiss Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:41]: if I didn't say 1st gen. Come on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:43]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:47]: I watched Breaking Bad again. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:48]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:51]: the last year. So because I actually, over the past year, have been so crazy promoting the book. I haven't listened to a lot of podcast. I'm gonna give a shout out to this one. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:00]: Thank you. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:02]: So SA Voices from the Field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:04]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? I just like to Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:08]: thank the NASPA family for welcoming me and of course to Dina over at the First Gen Center. I've had such an incredible experience getting to know folks in this world and a lot of the folks in student affairs and 1st gen programs. And so shout out to everyone here and the work that they're doing and to you for having me. I appreciate it. Again, the Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:28]: book is First Gen, a memoir by Alejandra Campoverdi. You can pick it up in the NASPA bookstore or wherever you buy books. Now if folks would like to book you for a speaking tour on their campus or reach you otherwise, how can they find you? Well, Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:40]: I'm super in my DMs. So you could DM me on Instagram or send me a LinkedIn message or on my website. There's an email that you can also reach out to me there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:50]: And what's your website? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:51]: Alejandracampoverdi.com. Thank you Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:54]: so much, for sharing your voice with us today. Thank you. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at nasa dotorg or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:26]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome to today's episode where I had the privilege of speaking with Dr. Christopher Lewis, a pioneer in the world of fathering. As the mind behind the Dad of Divas blog, the co-founder of Fathering Together, and the host of the Dads with Daughters Podcast, Chris has been at the forefront of changing the conversation around fatherhood. Today, he's here to share his insights, experiences, and the journey that led him to where he is now. Thanks for joining us, Chris! A few things we touched on are how to deal with bullying and body image, staying connected with your kids, how being immersed in all this dad knowledge has changed his own parenting, and tons of other dad tips. Fathering Together: Visit Website Dad of Divas: Visit Blog Dads with Daughters Podcast: Listen Here Thank you, Chris, for sharing your insights and experiences with us, offering a beacon of support for fathers worldwide. Your dedication to fostering strong family bonds and supporting fathers in their journey is truly inspiring. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share it with someone who'd appreciate this meaningful conversation about fatherhood. Spread the word, spread the positivity. -For website design, graphic design, internet marketing, and more check out McWilliams Marketing at ⁠⁠http://www.McWilliamsmarketing.com ⁠⁠ -Use Patnaik Realty for ANY real estate needs you have. I mean anything! Residential, commercial, property management, investments, acquisitions. He does it all.  Call Teek at 256-694-0117 or e-mail him at Teek@PatnaikCo.com -Go Check out Valley Leadership Academy and please consider sponsoring their new building! ⁠⁠https://www.valleyleadershipacademy.org/⁠⁠ -If you need some positive and encouraging support on your health and fitness journey, please join me at Relentless Positivity Fitness ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://fitandpositive.com/ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/relentlesspositivity/message