Podcasts about michigan flint

In this special bonus episode, Dustin sits down with Dr. Chris Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack how creating strategic content like podcasts can serve as a dynamic enrollment and marketing tool in higher ed. Chris shares his multi-decade journey through higher education, his love for storytelling, and how he's turned personal content-creation skills into professional wins. With the eduWeb Summit just around the corner, Chris also offers a preview of his upcoming talk and some candid truths about what it really takes to make podcasting work for institutions.Guest Name: Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs, University of Michigan-FlintGuest Social: LinkedInGuest Bio: Dr. Lewis currently serves as the Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan- Flint, where he has successfully increased enrollment, revitalized graduate admissions policies, and enhanced student engagement through innovative initiatives, including the creation of the Victors in Grad School and Law School Insider podcasts. His leadership extends beyond administration — he is a thought leader committed to elevating the graduate student experience. Dr. Lewis has held pivotal roles at institutions such as Lansing Community College, Western Michigan University Cooley Law School, the University of Wisconsin-Manitowoc, and Grand Valley State University. His expertise spans student services, enrollment management, strategic planning, and digital engagement—always with a focus on student success, equity, and access. - - - -Connect With Our Host:Dustin Ramsdellhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/dustinramsdell/About The Enrollify Podcast Network:The Higher Ed Geek is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you'll like other Enrollify shows too!Enrollify is made possible by Element451 — the next-generation AI student engagement platform helping institutions create meaningful and personalized interactions with students. Learn more at element451.com.Attend the 2025 Engage Summit! The Engage Summit is the premier conference for forward-thinking leaders and practitioners dedicated to exploring the transformative power of AI in education. Explore the strategies and tools to step into the next generation of student engagement, supercharged by AI. You'll leave ready to deliver the most personalized digital engagement experience every step of the way.Register now to secure your spot in Charlotte, NC, on June 24-25, 2025! Early bird registration ends February 1st -- https://engage.element451.com/register

[RE-POST FROM MAR. 3, 2021]In this podcast, Jen and Zsofia talked to Rebecca Tonietto, assistant professor of biology at the University of Michigan-Flint. Rebecca is a pollination ecologist, who got her start with Ann Fraser's entomology course at Kalamazoo College. She then worked as a research assistant on melon pollination in New Jersey where her interest in pollinators began. She is a native of Michigan and has found her way back to the Flint area after going to graduate school at Northwestern University where she worked - among other things - on pollinators on roof gardens. Rebecca gave some really nice examples from her life of how following your gut and staying open to opportunities can land you in the 'right' place.Follow Rebecca on Twitter @beckytoniettoWatch this interview on YouTube here!You can follow Bug Talk on Instagram and Twitter @bugtalkpodcast, and YouTube @bugtalk6645

In this powerful episode of Coaching In Session, host Michael Rearden sits down with Deshaun Jackson, a Registered Nurse and lifestyle coach with a remarkable story of resilience and determination. From growing up in Davison, Michigan, to overcoming societal barriers as an African American male in a predominantly Caucasian field, Deshaun shares how he navigated the complexities of fatherhood, multiple marriages, and the pursuit of professional excellence.Graduating from the University of Michigan-Flint during the Covid-19 pandemic, Deshaun now uses his life experiences to empower others through his Elite Life/Mindset Coaching and Mindset/Training/Nutrition Program. His unique approach focuses on the power of habitual construction, guiding individuals across diverse backgrounds to achieve sustainable personal growth and enhanced well-being.Join us for an inspiring conversation that delves into the intersection of personal challenges and professional success, highlighting how Deshaun's journey can serve as a roadmap for others seeking to transform their lives.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Background03:05 The Power of Self-Love and Confidence06:04 Embracing Failure as a Learning Opportunity09:31 Taking Action: The Key to Personal Growth12:24 The Value of Having a Coach or Mentor15:22 Living Authentically: Embracing Vulnerability19:37 Inspiring Change and ConclusionDeshaun Jacksonhttps://www.facebook.com/share/PdGbbMzKNB6PremA/?mibextid=qi2Omghttps://instagram.com/psychrnfit/___________________________________Michael Reardenwww.Revenconcepts.comReview, Follow, & Subscribe to the Podcast on your Favorite App: https://coachinginsession.buzzsprout.com/Support the Show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1882580/supportInterested in working with me? Learn MoreEmail Me: Coachinginsession@gmail.com----------------------------------#Resilience #Transformation #PersonalGrowth #LifeCoach #MindsetCoach #EliteLifeCoaching #HabitBuilding #HealthAndWellness #NurseLife #AfricanAmericanSuccess #OvercomingObstacles #MentalHealthAwareness #SelfImprovement #PsychRnFit #UniversityOfMichiganFlint #Covid19Graduation #DailyHabits #MindsetMatters #WellbeingJourney #LifestyleCoachingSend us a MessageSupport the showWebsite: www.Revenconcepts.com Email Us: Coachinginsession@gmail.com

A profusion of commercials set in elevators has Vieves and Andrew contemplating the many signifiers and tropes inherent in a small metal box. From car buying to cookies, elevators can sell it all. Here are links to the ads we talked about in this week's show: Ulta Beauty https://www.ispot.tv/ad/fN_d/ulta-holidays-joy-in-the-present Impress Falsies - Express elevator https://www.ispot.tv/ad/fTS0/impress-press-on-falsies-express-elevator Zaxbys - Kickin Chicken https://www.ispot.tv/ad/Z972/zaxbys-kickin-chicken-sandwich-meal-drive-thrus-open Chick-Fil-A https://www.ispot.tv/ad/A7jy/chick-fil-a-catering-awkward-elevator-encounter NFL https://www.ispot.tv/ad/dQZJ/nfl-shop-elevator Oreo - Stay Playful https://www.ispot.tv/ad/6HcU/oreo-elevator Progressive - Dr. Rick https://www.ispot.tv/ad/2aT5/progressive-dr-rick-elevator Geico - Savings https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7arn/geico-elevator-unskippable Realtor.com - loud whisper https://www.ispot.tv/ad/wqZF/realtor-com-elevator-and-the-not-yous-featuring-elizabeth-banks Oikos - God of War https://www.ispot.tv/ad/ZE32/oikos-god-of-war-elevator Mitsubishi Electric w/ Fred Couples https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7o3v/mitsubishi-electric-elevator-feat-fred-couples Old Navy - JLD https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7aCI/old-navy-spring-sale-hold-the-elevator-ft-julia-louis-dreyfus Bounce Wrinkleguard - Elevator encounter https://www.ispot.tv/ad/qTkB/bounce-wrinkleguard-elevator-encounter Untuckit https://www.ispot.tv/ad/wSOj/untuckit-elevator Gusto - Elevator Music https://www.ispot.tv/ad/5E5w/gusto-elevator-music-or-payroll-compliance University of Michigan Flint https://www.ispot.tv/ad/5TW0/university-of-michigan-flint-elevator Wells Fargo - HBCUs https://www.ispot.tv/ad/wb7i/wells-fargo-building-a-better-community-hbcu-elevator Hyundai - w/ Jason Bateman https://www.ispot.tv/ad/Ivws/hyundai-the-elevator-shopper-assurance-featuring-jason-bateman-t1 Motorola - Funky Place https://www.ispot.tv/ad/wJor/motorola-smart-speaker-with-amazon-alexa-elevator-funky-place Bulova - Conversation piece https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7WAt/bulova-accutron-ii-elevator-ride Kay Jewelers - 11th-12th floors https://www.ispot.tv/ad/AcCn/kay-jewelers-ever-us-ring-spike-stuck-in-the-elevator Kayak - Stuck https://www.ispot.tv/ad/AVyc/kayak-elevator AT&T - Stuck https://www.ispot.tv/ad/AE8y/at-and-t-elevator Chevy Volt - Stuck https://www.ispot.tv/ad/AT1h/2016-chevrolet-volt-elevator Squad Busters - Elevator https://www.ispot.tv/ad/6aW7/squad-busters-elevator-featuring-chris-hemsworth-christina-ricci-dolph-lundgren Solitaire Grand Harvest - Up or down https://www.ispot.tv/ad/6S2l/solitaire-grand-harvest-elevator-featuring-sarah-jessica-parker

Kelsi talks with Pastor Matt Popovits about his forthcoming book, Junk Drawer Jesus: Discarding Your Spiritual Clutter and Rediscovering the Supremacy of Grace. Matt details some of the most common misconceptions people tend to have about who God is (and what that means about them), including the ways we measure our spirituality, how we try and find our identity in our work, and that we falsely assume that happiness should be our ultimate aim in life.  Matt Popovits currently serves as Lead Pastor of St. Mark Houston, in Houston, Texas. Matt is a graduate of both Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, MO and of the University of Michigan-Flint department of Theatre and Dance. He and his high school sweetheart, Lisa, have two children: Ava Elise and Jack Matthew.  Show Notes: ⁠Support 1517⁠ ⁠1517 Podcasts⁠ ⁠The 1517 Podcast Network on Apple Podcasts⁠ ⁠1517 on Youtube⁠ More from Kelsi: ⁠Kelsi Klembara⁠ ⁠ Follow Kelsi on Instagram⁠ ⁠Follow Kelsi on Twitter⁠ ⁠Kelsi's Newsletter⁠ Subscribe to the Show: Apple Podcasts⁠ ⁠Spotify⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠ More from Matt and the Show: Preorder Junk Drawer Jesus Follow Matt on Instagram Make it Simple Ministries Matt's Church, St. Mark Houston Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic-and What We Can Do About It by Jennifer Breheny Wallace

Welcome to another enriching season of the Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast! As we kick off Season 11, hosts Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis dive deep into the past, present, and future of student affairs, offering a robust discussion designed to resonate with everyone from seasoned experts to fresh-faced professionals stepping into the field for the first time. This season, aptly timed as we approach fall 2024, promises to unravel layers of insight by unpacking critical themes and interviewing diverse voices within higher education. A Summer to Reflect Dr. Jill Creighton opens by setting the stage for what promises to be an impactful season. “This break between season 10 and season 11 has gone by at a blink,” notes Dr. Christopher Lewis, encapsulating the whirlwind that is summer in academia. The warm months are a brief yet essential time for rest, reflection, and preparation — particularly relevant for professionals in student affairs who anticipate the fall with a mixture of excitement and, often, trepidation. As campuses spring back to life, it's a period of rejuvenation and readiness, laying the groundwork for the academic adventures to follow. Election Year Dynamics As Dr. Creighton mentions, “Anytime we have an election year in the US, it changes the work that we do.” The intersection of politics and education makes for a tumultuous landscape. Political outcomes affect campus climates, funding, and overall student wellbeing. It impacts not just the professionals within student affairs but also the students they serve. Dr. Lewis reflects on this, acknowledging the complexity that comes with trying to create a smooth transition for new and returning students amid political unrest. The 2024 election year, therefore, is expected to bring unique challenges and opportunities. How campuses handle political discourse and maintain inclusivity will be key areas of focus. Whether it involves navigating conversations about policy impacts or ensuring that marginalized voices are heard, student affairs professionals have a pivotal role in steering the educational experience during such crucial times. Exploring the Past, Present, and Future For Seasons 11 and 12, the podcast is taking a thematic approach, concentrating on the past, present, and future of student affairs. This strategic focus builds upon the success of previous seasons that examined transitions in the industry. By honing in on this comprehensive tripartite theme, the podcast aims to paint a holistic picture of where student affairs has been, where it stands today, and where it's headed. Each guest will be challenged to answer three fundamental questions about the past, present, and future of student affairs. These discussions will not only highlight individual professional areas of expertise but will also address broader functional areas and trends. Expect rich dialogue on how historical contexts have shaped current practices and how emerging trends are set to redefine the student affairs landscape. Diverse Voices Across Career Stages One of the notable features of this season is its commitment to inclusivity in terms of career stages. As Dr. Creighton points out, the goal is to engage voices from all walks of professional life. Whether you're a retiree offering seasoned wisdom, a first-year professional with fresh insights, a grad student bringing academic rigor, or a mid-level professional balancing day-to-day operations, your story is valuable. Listeners are encouraged to contribute by recommending others or volunteering themselves to be part of this dynamic discourse. The podcast team is eager to feature a mosaic of perspectives, illustrating the diverse tapestry of experiences that comprise student affairs today. As we embark on this new season, the *Student Affairs Voices from the Field* podcast stands as a beacon for thoughtful conversation and professional development. From examining the impact of political climates on campuses to exploring the evolution of student affairs, this season sets the stage for an exciting journey through the myriad aspects of higher education. We invite you to listen, engage, and reflect as we unravel the past, present, and future of student affairs together. For those interested in contributing to the season, send your recommendations to savoices@naspa.org. Whether you're a novice or a veteran in the field, your voice matters and can profoundly impact the broader student affairs community. Catch the latest episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and don't forget to leave a review to help others discover this invaluable resource. Here's to another season of learning and growing together!   TRANSCRIPTION Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. Be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Chris, we've hit fall 2024. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:29]: It's amazing. This break between season 10 and season 11 has gone by at a blink, and it has been a really quick summer. I'm glad that we're hitting the fall and we're really getting ready, not only for a new season, but a new fall with new students and just really excited about it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: I'm starting to see move in pictures for our profession. We're all headed for our next adventure around the academic calendar. And I think student affairs as a profession might be in for a little bit of a ride this fall. I think anytime we have an election year in the US, it changes the work that we do. So I'm definitely thinking about all of our colleagues out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: Definitely hear you in that regard. I feel for the people that are not only parents that are moving their kids in for the first time or second time or third time, but for all of us as professionals that are working to make that smooth and make it a seamless transition for all of our students. But you're right. It can definitely be a very tumultuous few months as we go through this election and whatever the outcome is going to be and how that politically is going to impact how our campuses run, how it impacts our students, and more. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:48]: With all of those impacts, as we thought about what we wanted to look at for what is now season 11, if you can believe it, of essay voices from the field. We really began reflecting on how our last seasons of 9 and 10 on transitions. It felt pretty successful for us in looking at a whole season arc on one theme. Gave us a way to focus in on what was going on. And so we're gonna try it again for seasons 11 and 12. We're gonna be looking at the past, present, and future of student affairs. And I really can't think of a better time to be doing that than right now. And so this year, kind of going back to our season on becoming, we're gonna be asking each of our guests 3 questions. 1 about the past of student affairs, one about the present, and one about the future. So in addition to learning about their professional areas of expertise, their functional areas, the work that they're doing on their campuses, and the messages they have for all of us. I really look forward to hearing their thoughts on that topic. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:45]: You know, I'm really looking forward to it as well. And I think there's going to be a wide array of individuals that have some really interesting things to say. We have some names that we're already looking at. We're excited about the people that are going to be joining us over the next year, and all this are out there. If there are people that you feel that really should be a part of this season that have compelling stories or have something that that you feel that could really add to the discourse about the past, present, and future of our profession, we'd love to hear from you. Send us an email at savoices@naspa.org. And we would love to be able to get your names that you're submitting in, whether it's you, whether it's someone else. Let us know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]: And when we talk about past, present, and future voices, we're also looking at where you are in the tenure in your career. If you're retired, we wanna hear from you. If you are in your very first year, we wanna hear from you. If you're a grad student, we especially wanna hear from you. And if you're a mid level professional making it work day in and day out, we wanna hear from you. So please reach out. We'd love to feature your voice on the show for season 112 on the past, present, and future of student affairs. See you very soon. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at savoices@naspa.org, or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:40]: This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Dr. Rebecca Barak describes the collaboration between the Chicago Botanic Garden, Chicago Park District, Northwestern University, and the University of Michigan–Flint to develop native, biodiverse lawn alternatives that can withstand and moderate the effects of climate change

In this episode of I Am Refocused Radio, we sit down with Deshaun Jackson, a healthcare professional and lifestyle coach who has transformed his life through resilience, determination, and a holistic approach to wellness. Deshaun shares his powerful journey from Davison, Michigan, where he navigated the challenges of fatherhood, multiple marriages, and a demanding career in healthcare.As a Registered Nurse and founder of PsychRnFit, Deshaun offers unique insights into the integration of mindset, physical training, nutrition, and mental health. He discusses the importance of daily habits, accountability, and personalized strategies in unlocking one's full potential. During the interview, Deshaun reveals how his programs—Elite Life/Mindset Coaching and the Mindset/Training/Nutrition Program—have helped clients from diverse backgrounds achieve sustainable transformation.Tune in to hear Deshaun's inspiring story, his experiences navigating the healthcare field during the Covid-19 pandemic, and his passion for empowering others to achieve their best selves. This episode is packed with valuable lessons and practical advice for anyone looking to improve their overall well-being and live a more fulfilled life.BioDeshaun Jackson's story and expertise are a testament to his resilience, diverse professional experiences, and commitment to personal development. A 44-year-old African American from Davison, Michigan, just outside of Flint, Deshaun has navigated various roles throughout his life, including fatherhood, Physical Therapist Assistant, and now Registered Nurse. His journey is marked by overcoming significant challenges, such as graduating from the University of Michigan-Flint during the Covid-19 pandemic—a milestone achieved in a field predominantly occupied by Caucasian females. This experience highlighted the societal perceptions and systemic barriers he had to balance alongside rigorous academic demands.Deshaun's life has also been shaped by navigating the complexities of three marriages and divorces, each bringing unique obstacles and opportunities for personal growth. Through it all, he has emerged as a trusted healthcare professional and lifestyle coach with PsychRnFit, where he channels his experiences into empowering others.Through his programs—Elite Life/Mindset Coaching and the Mindset/Training/Nutrition Program—Deshaun provides structured guidance that emphasizes the importance of daily habits, mindset cultivation, and accountability. His approach to coaching is unique in its focus on habitual construction, ensuring that clients from diverse backgrounds and age groups can achieve sustainable change and enhanced well-being. Having witnessed the transformative impact of his methodologies, Deshaun continues to guide individuals from adolescents to adults in unlocking their full potential and living their best lives.https://instagram.com/psychrnfit/ https://www.facebook.com/share/PdGbbMzKNB6PremA/?mibextid=qi2OmgBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.

Deshaun, from Davison, Michigan, just outside of Flint, has navigated various roles including fatherhood, Physical Therapist Assistant, and now Registered Nurse. Graduating from the University of Michigan-Flint during the Covid-19 pandemic marked a significant milestone, particularly in a field predominantly occupied by Caucasian females. This experience involved balancing rigorous academic demands with societal perceptions and systemic barriers. Throughout his life, three marriages and divorces have presented unique obstacles, each contributing to the complexities of love and personal growth. His journey reflects resilience and determination, overcoming challenges to establish a trusted presence as a healthcare professional and lifestyle coach with PsychRnFit. Through programs such as Elite Life/Mindset Coaching and the Mindset/Training/Nutrition Program, individuals are empowered to reach their full potential with structured guidance in daily habits, mindset cultivation, and personalized strategies. https://podmatch.com/guestdetail/17175733545772061b73d142b https://www.instagram.com/psychrnfit/ https://www.facebook.com/chletyraziaj6?mibextid=qi2Omg&rdid=tBJWFx8frzcuggOd&share_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fshare%2FPdGbbMzKNB6PremA%2F%3Fmibextid%3Dqi2Omg

Join Dr. Amy Yorke, PT, PhD, professor in the physical therapy department at the University of Michigan-Flint, in a conversation with host Ryan Giebel, PT, DPT, OCS, CMTPT/DN, content marketing specialist at WebPT, on how to improve community care through research and education. In this episode, Amy shares insights into the HEART clinic at the University of Michigan-Flint, a student-led, pro-bono service that provides individualized physical therapy to underinsured and uninsured patients. Together, the two offer practical advice for practicing PTs on how to get involved in community-based initiatives and the benefits of research and clinical affiliations. Learn more:  https://www.umflint.edu/heart/  https://www.webpt.com/podcast

Welcome to the Personal Development Trailblazers Podcast! In this episode, we dive into strategies of building habits through daily discipline towards success and personal growth. Deshaun Jackson's  story and expertise stand out due to a combination of diverse professional roles, a commitment to personal development, and a unique journey that intertwines personal challenges with professional achievements. As a 44-year-old African American male from Davison, Michigan, just outside of Flint, Deshaun has navigated through various roles including fatherhood, Physical Therapist Assistant, and now Registered Nurse. Graduating from the University of Michigan-Flint during the Covid-19 pandemic was a significant milestone, particularly in a field predominantly occupied by Caucasian females. This experience presented distinct challenges as he balanced rigorous academic demands with societal perceptions and systemic barriers. Throughout Deshaun's  life, he has  also navigated through three marriages and divorces, each presenting unique obstacles as he wrestled with the complexities of love and personal growth. His journey reflects resilience and determination, overcoming obstacles to establish himself as a trusted healthcare professional and lifestyle coach with PsychRnFit. Through his programs—Elite Life/Mindset Coaching and Mindset/Training/Nutrition Program— Deshaun empowers individuals to achieve their full potential through structured guidance in daily habits, mindset cultivation, and personalized strategies. In essence, Deshaun Jackson's story is a testament to resilience, diversity, and the limitless potential of individuals to transform their lives through disciplined action and focused intention. Connect with Deshaun  here: https://instagram.com/psychrnfit/ https://www.facebook.com/share/PdGbbMzKNB6PremA/?mibextid=qi2Omg =================================== If you enjoyed this episode, remember to hit the like button and subscribe. Then share this episode with your friends. Thanks for watching the Personal Development Trailblazers Podcast. This podcast is part of the Digital Trailblazer family of podcasts. To learn more about Digital Trailblazer and what we do to help entrepreneurs, go to DigitalTrailblazer.com. Are you a coach, consultant, expert, or online course creator? Then we'd love to invite you to our FREE Facebook Group where you can learn the best strategies to land more high-ticket clients and customers.  Request to join here:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/profitablecoursecreators QUICK LINKS:  APPLY TO BE FEATURED: https://app.digitaltrailblazer.com/podcast-guest-application GET MORE CLIENTS: https://app.digitaltrailblazer.com/client-acquisition-accelerator-pdf DIGITAL TRAILBLAZER: https://digitaltrailblazer.com/ JOIN OUR FREE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://www.facebook.com/groups/profitablecoursecreators

Welcome, amazing listeners! Join us as we dive into an inspiring conversation with our special guest, Deshaun Jackson.   Deshaun's journey is marked by a blend of diverse professional roles, a steadfast commitment to personal growth, and a unique path that intertwines personal challenges with remarkable professional achievements.   Hailing from Davison, Michigan, just outside of Flint, Deshaun has navigated through various pivotal roles including fatherhood, Physical Therapist Assistant, and now Registered Nurse. Graduating from the University of Michigan-Flint during the Covid-19 pandemic was a defining milestone, especially in a field traditionally dominated by Caucasian females.   This period posed distinct challenges as Deshaun balanced rigorous academic demands with navigating societal perceptions and systemic barriers.   Throughout his life, Deshaun has encountered and triumphed over significant personal challenges, including navigating through three marriages and divorces, each contributing to his profound insights into love and personal growth.   Deshaun's journey is a testament to resilience and determination, culminating in his role as a trusted healthcare professional and lifestyle coach at PsychRnFit.   Through his transformative programs—Elite Life/Mindset Coaching and Mindset/Training/Nutrition Program—Deshaun empowers individuals to unlock their full potential through structured guidance in daily habits, mindset cultivation, and personalized strategies.   What sets Deshaun apart is his innovative approach to 'habitual construction,' which underscores the importance of consistent daily habits and accountability.   This framework not only fosters personal growth but also meets the diverse needs of clients across different backgrounds and age groups, facilitating sustainable changes and enhanced well-being.   For more insights and to connect with Deshaun, visit his website: https://instagram.com/psychrnfit/

Dr. Chris Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint, joins Mallory Willsea live from the NAGAP GEM Summit. They dive into the impact and insights from Dr. Lewis's extensive podcasting experience, both personally and professionally. With a focus on enhancing student engagement and recruitment, Dr. Lewis shares how his podcast, 'Victors in Grad School,' has become a strategic tool in connecting with and guiding prospective students.Key Takeaways:Podcasting as a Strategic Tool: Dr. Lewis leverages his podcast to answer frequent queries from students, effectively using it as a platform to guide and inform prospective and current students.Personal Journey to Professional Impact: Starting from a personal desire to share his experiences as a father, Dr. Lewis has expanded his reach to influence the higher education space, particularly in graduate studies.Content Utilization Across Platforms: Insights from podcast episodes are repurposed across digital channels, enhancing accessibility and engagement with university content.Success Through Storytelling: Sharing compelling stories, like that of a first-gen student turned physics professor in Australia, underscores the transformative power of education and mentorship.Sustaining Engagement: Consistency in content delivery and adapting to listener feedback are critical for podcast growth and impact.Measuring Impact: Dr. Lewis discusses the challenges of quantifying the direct impact of podcasts but highlights the importance of gradual growth and listener engagement as indicators of success.Guest Name: Dr. Chris Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan - FlintGuest Social: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drchristopherlewis/Guest Bio: Christopher A. Lewis, Ed.D serves as the Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan - Flint. He is also the host of the Victors in Grad School podcast, amongst a number of other podcasts, including SA Voices from the Field and Dads with Daughters. Christopher is the President of the Rotary Club of Williamston Michigan and is the Treasurer of the Williamston Community Schools Board of Education and was honored recently as a Pillar of the Profession from the NASPA - Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education Foundation. He also co-founded an international organization called Fathering Together which supports fathers in being engaged members of their children's lives. - - - -Connect With Our Co-Hosts:Mallory Willsea https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorywillsea/https://twitter.com/mallorywillseaSeth Odell https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethodell/https://twitter.com/sethodellAbout The Enrollify Podcast Network:The Higher Ed Pulse is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you'll like other Enrollify shows too! Some of our favorites include Generation AI and Confessions of a Higher Education Social Media Manager.Enrollify is made possible by Element451 — the next-generation AI student engagement platform helping institutions create meaningful and personalized interactions with students. Learn more at element451.com. Connect with Us at the Engage Summit:Exciting news — Mallory will be at the 2024 Engage Summit in Raleigh, NC, on June 25 and 26, and we'd love to meet you there! Sessions will focus on cutting-edge AI applications that are reshaping student outreach, enhancing staff productivity, and offering deep insights into ROI. Use the discount code Enrollify50 at checkout, and you can register for just $200! Learn more and register at engage.element451.com — we can't wait to see you there!

Welcome to NASPA's SA Voices From the Field Podcast. This week we had an insightful conversation from our podcast with Dr. Stacey Malaret, a seasoned authority in student affairs, recorded at the NASPA annual conference in Seattle.  Transitioning Roles: Administrator to Educator During the episode, Dr. Malaret, who has worked in student development since 1999 and serves as the Director for the Lead Scholars Academy at UCF, shared her insights on balancing administrative duties with academic responsibilities. She teaches leadership studies and serves on dissertation committees, embodying the blend of practitioner and scholar. Generational Shifts in Leadership Dr. Malaret highlighted the generational changes from millennials to Gen Z, stressing the unique leadership development needed for today's diverse student populations. UCF's Lead Scholars Academy and U-LEAD programs are testament to her progressive and adaptive methods, which now include a virtual leadership academy initiated eight years ago. The Online Learning Curve Our discussion also shed light on the augmented reality of higher education - online learning. Dr. Malaret emphasized the myth of online courses being 'easier', arguing that self-motivation is key to success in a digital classroom. While the asynchronous nature of online courses provides flexibility, it also demands a greater level of self-drive and discipline from students. Bridging Academic and Student Affairs A significant portion of our dialogue revolved around understanding the interplay between academic and student affairs. As a faculty member, Dr. Malaret brings a unique perspective to student success, bridging curricular and co-curricular experiences. Her involvement at both ends of the educational spectrum allows her to witness firsthand the impact of out-of-class experiences on academic success. Advice for Aspiring Educators For those aspiring to transition into teaching, Dr. Malaret suggested volunteering as a teaching assistant or adjunct professor to gain valuable classroom experience. She advised that understanding the academic calendar and significant dates can help student affairs professionals to be more empathetic and supportive of students during stressful times like finals and midterms. The Balancing Act Dr. Malaret affirmsedthat engaging in the classroom will enrich the abilities of student affairs professionals, influencing workshops, presentations, and even student interactions. By wearing multiple hats and thriving in each, Dr. Malaret serves as an inspirational figure for those navigating the complex landscape of student affairs and higher education.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today, we welcome our next guest who we were able to sit down with at the NASPA annual conference in Seattle, Washington this March 2024. Welcome to doctor Stacey Mallaret, originally from Orlando, Florida, and who attended the University of Southern Mississippi for her bachelor of arts degree in psychology. She then graduated in 1998 from the University of Central Florida with the master of arts in student personnel, and in 2007 with her in educational leadership. She's worked in the student affairs development field since 1999, and currently serves as the director for the Lead Scholars Academy at UCF. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: She teaches educational leadership, strategies for success and leadership studies classes, in addition to chairing and serving on dissertation committees. Alright. Stacey, welcome to essay voices. Thank you. And we are recording live at the NASPA annual conference today. We're in a meeting room right now. So for our listeners, there's audio quality differences that you're noticing. It's we're really live in person, and so it's it's not a frequent thing that I get to interview frequent thing that I get to interview guests in person, so this is a really big treat for me as well. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:01:17]: Oh, me too. Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:18]: And you're at the University of Central Florida, and you have multiple hats, both as an administrator and as a faculty member. So we're gonna be talking today mostly about your transition between those two spaces and how those kind of supplement your work and understanding as a practitioner. Great. But we love to always start by asking our guests, how did you find your way into your current seat? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:01:39]: Well, back in the 1900, as my children would say, I was a really involved student leader. My father used to say I majored in Delta Zeta because that's all I talked about. Didn't really talk about my classes. And I think I had the traditional tap on the shoulder saying, hey. Have you heard about student affairs type of conversation? And I did my research pre Internet, you know, to try to find, you know, different institutions. And I ended up going to, actually, University of Central Florida for my master's. I'm from Orlando originally. Got an assistantship, worked in student activities, got my first job in student activities. And also, during my grad program, had a practicum teaching a SLS course as a strategies and learning success course at a, say, college with shout out to Dana Gentlemen, who's a good colleague that I've known for a long time now, and Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:32]: so shout out to Dana Genten, who's a good colleague that I've known for a long time now. And so whenever I meet someone from UCF, I always think of her.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:42]: Yes. I know Dana very well. Please tell her I said hi. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:02:43]: I will. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:43]: Back to your campus. So talk first a little bit about your day job. What is it that you're doing in the student affairs world mostly? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:02:49]: So I am a director of our leadership programs area. It's called the LEAD Scholars Academy. It's an academic and co curricular leadership development program for incoming 1st year students, and then we also have a program for upper class students, which we call U LEAD. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:02]: It's been an interesting generational transition time right now between what we thought millennials needed in leadership space to now what we're seeing Gen Z is needing and they're very different things. What are you doing to adapt your practice to the generational mindset that we're seeing now? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:03:18]: Well, one thing that we started probably about 8 years ago is a virtual leo Leadership Academy. It has 8 different modules on various leadership topics that any student with a UCF ID can log in and do at their leisure. We did that because we found that students wanted that virtual space as available to them. Whether or not they take advantage of it is another question. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:40]: Of course. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:03:41]: But they wanted to have that. And I've seen different colleagues who have used that for training their own student leaders. So if maybe they couldn't take a leadership class, this was kind of the next best thing that they could say, okay. Well, before you become a peer mentor with us or a resident assistant or orientation leader or what have you. Take this virtual leadership academy so you get the basics of what leadership is as part of their training process. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:04]: And you said that was developed 8 years ago. Correct. So you were doing virtual online learning before it was cool? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:09]: We were ahead of the curve. Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:12]: So as you're looking ahead, how has that curriculum evolved over time? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:16]: Well, we have adopted the social change model as our basis for leadership development, but then we've supplemented throughout the years with other leadership theories, and we started doing strengths quests this past year. So we've been adding to the social change model as our base what we think would be good for students to learn and know about themselves and others. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:40]: For those who aren't familiar with the social change model, can you give us a a 30 second CliffsNotes? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:45]: Sure. So Susan Komaviz is one of the authors of the social change model, and it focuses on individual values, group values, and societal values, and how to make the world a better place. So learning about yourself, learning how to work with others, and learning how to take that knowledge and help with your community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: It's a unique leadership model because it's one of the few that was co developed in community with other leaders as opposed to one person being, like, here's my idea of leadership. So they kind of modeled their own leadership values and theory by creating it in their way. So if you've not read The Social Change Model, I would encourage you to do so. And, also, it's one of those ones that has a beautiful abbreviation. They always talk about the 7 c's and the 3 buckets. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:05:24]: And students really resonate with it because they can say, oh, well, I focus on this c, or I focus on, you know, collaboration or consciousness of self. I learned in strengths quest. I learned this about myself, and I'm able to relate it to a model. So it makes them feel a little bit more connected with our curriculum. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:42]: And one of my favorite things about the 7 c's model too is that you can really focus kind of in a module based form on each of the c's as opposed to, kind of looking at this long nebulous trajectory of leadership. You can really, really kind of narrow in on common purpose or civility Contribution. Yeah. Those types of things. So there's a lot of amazing institutions doing good work with Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:03]: Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:03]: This framework right now. I actually just had a conversation this morning in the Global, Division Leadership Board with a good colleague from South Africa who was saying, oh my gosh, we're using the social change model at our universities at Stellenbosch in South Africa, and I also see us talking about it here in the US. So that one's really permeating right now. And then your side hustle quote unquote is working as a faculty member. What are you doing in that space? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:29]: So I teach a Strategies for Success course for incoming freshmen, and I also teach in the higher ed program as well at our institution. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:37]: And I believe you're also advising doctoral Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:47]: their their dissertation chair, and then I also serve on committees as well. And that's a great way to help with the highest level students going into this field or just wanting to further their education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:59]: You're really spanning the corners of the Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:01]: Freshman to doctorate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:02]: Yes. Freshman to doctorate from Orlando to Seattle. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:06]: Right. And I and I actually were in Seattle, and I took a walk yesterday around town, and I passed by the City University of Seattle campus. I took a picture. I was like, oh, maybe I should go and get my faculty ID. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:16]: Did you get it? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:17]: No. It was Sunday, so I didn't. But I was like, maybe I should today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:20]: I think that's a be a fun souvenir from Yeah. Your trip to Seattle. And in thinking about what you're seeing in evolution and transition of the research right now, I know we went through a period of time where everyone was really intense about wanting to research the impacts of the pandemic. And I think we're starting to see that soften a little bit on the research and and now. What are you seeing that doctoral students are most interested in studying in the present? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:42]: Well, I have a lot of students who are studying diverse components of higher education. So, for example, the black woman's experience in the faculty world. Or I have one who's focusing on humor and how practitioners need humor in order just to get through the day. And so how do they cope with their day to day job? So it's very diverse. I don't have a really one area that students are picking up. It really depends on their individual interest. I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:19]: education faculty space. Mhmm. Because I think in our academy, you know, that we do have a knowledge community here in NASPA called Student Affairs Partnering with Academic Affairs, but those who are not insiders to higher ed don't necessarily understand the level of chasm that can exist between administration side and faculty side. So Yeah. I'd love to hear about how you transition your mindset between both roles, and then also kind of bring those pieces together for your colleagues that are in either space. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:08:45]: Well, first, in order to kinda get into the space, you need experience to get the experience, which is kind of the mantra in student affairs. And so if we have graduate students listening, I would say volunteer to serve as a graduate teaching assistant for free with a faculty member, whether it's a freshman seminar course or a leadership course or something that is more aligned with the student affairs area. Freshman seminar strategies for success, things like that are college one zero one courses are typically the one that has the biggest comparison to student affairs and biggest likeliness to have some topics that are in both areas. So I would say volunteer. Even if you're a practitioner, see if you could volunteer. Mhmm. You know, because that's how I got my first side hustle gig when I was working in student activities. I did that one GTA experience for a practicum and it was on my resume and they needed an adjunct for a freshman seminar course. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:09:38]: And they said, Stacey, you have experience. You could do this. And I kinda faked it till I made it. I was like, sure. I could do this. And just kind of struggled along and had mentors who were faculty members, like, you know, asked them, can you share your lesson plans? Can you give what you do? And I think that's really important the first time you teach is find someone who's taught it before to help you along. And so I think that there is a great relationship between teaching those types of courses and being a practitioner because you're able to see the students in a different mindset. Mhmm. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:10:08]: You can read their reflections that they may have spoken to you individually about how they're doing or about their academic advising. So there's a great relationship between student success coaching, academic advising, and teaching a freshman seminar type class. Because in my class, I have them talk about what they're taking next semester, Have them talk about what their major is, what they wanna do when they graduate. And those are all conversations that practitioners have normally with students. It's just in a more academic context, and you're grading them. You wouldn't grade them talking to them. Right. But you'd be grading them about their ability to reflect, and I think it's a great way to get to know the students in a different lens. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:48]: I am curious if you have any advice for practitioners who are looking to teach their first course, but do need to be or deserve to be compensated for that first course because it's a great privilege to be able to volunteer one's time for that type of thing. And in student affairs especially, I think we give away our time for free a lot. Yes. And so how would you kind of take that first step inside of that world if you do want to or need to be paid for that work? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:11]: Well, I would first talk to whoever the department chair is and say what is the compensation for adjuncts. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:16]: Mhmm. Which we know is not great. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:18]: Yeah. It could range anywhere from 1,000 to 5 $1,000, I've seen. And, you know, try to get your foot in the door and get one of those classes, and then you can expand to other universities. It doesn't have to be the one that you work at. You can work for a community college or an online university. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:34]: Mhmm. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:35]: Sometimes they would require additional credentials, especially if you're teaching online to learn how to work the learning management system and develop modules online. I think a lot of faculty ask me for my program. They're like, oh, I can teach online. And I'm like, it's not that easy. No. You know, you have to learn how to teach online before you can teach online. And I think a lot of people are unaware of that back end work. And so if there's a way that you can do that ahead of time, get that credential, talk to your faculty center for teaching and learning or whatever it may be called your institution and ask, how do I get credentialed to teach online? If you have that already, you're a much more viable candidate to teach. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:16]: We're talking about micro credentials. We're not talking about Right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:19]: No. No. No. Going back for another degree. No. No. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:12:21]: It would be probably an online course that you would take, a zero credit online course. Just to learn how to navigate your learning management system back end and how to engage students in an online format, things like that. And then use that to your advantage when you're asking about teaching and you might be chosen over others for that paid work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:39]: And pedagogy is so different in online teaching versus kind of that live in person instruction. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:12:44]: Right. Learning how to be interactive with discussion boards because you're not gonna have that discussion. I do a live session every week on the chapter, and I teach the chapter. Whether or not students show up for that is a different thing, but I record them and I post them. And I think even if they don't watch them, I think students, knowing that they can, makes them feel more connected to the class, or at least I like to think so. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:07]: Well, online learning, I also feel like is the the wave of how we create access in higher education. Because of that asynchronous modeling, it allows people who have full time jobs or parenting schedules or other caregiver schedules or just unpredictable hours at their work to be able to engage in their course more effectively. I took a couple of online courses in my doctoral program, and it was fascinating how much I could learn from others through discussion boards, which was not something that I expected going into the process. Right. And then really felt by the time we got to meeting in person that I I kind of knew people and how they thought about things even though we had never had a live synchronous conversation. It's an interesting process. So when you are working with students in that online space, talk about the transition that you're seeing in their expectations for a class versus how they end up engaging. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:13:54]: I think sometimes students think that online classes are going to be easier. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:59]: They're so much harder than in person. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:14:01]: They they just think, oh, I'll just take it online, and I think that the motivation in online classes is tougher because you're not having that professor in front of you saying, this is due on Friday. Mhmm. You have to have the ability to go to the calendar and to log in to we use Canvas on a daily basis and see what's on your to do list. And have that self motivation to actually work on those assignments. So I think that's the toughest thing is, you know, I have more students fail in the online course sections than in the face to face course sections because I think that motivation is something that can't be taught and some students think that they're taking the easy way out by taking the online section. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:44]: And it's a much more self intrinsically motivated space. Right. Because oftentimes in the in person space it's a lot of work to get yourself to the class, but once you're in the class, it's easier to turn your brain on because you're in a focused time. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:14:55]: Right. And you're surrounded by like minded students, hopefully, who are wanting to do well, and when you surround yourself with others who want to do well, you rise to the occasion. Whereas in an asynchronous space, you're alone, unless you are really engaging in those discussion boards. But even if you are, sometimes it's harder to feel that sense of urgency to do well in the class when you don't see others also. What do Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:20]: you want student affairs practitioners to know, who haven't been in the classroom side about what we should be paying attention to that maybe we're not seeing in our day to day interactions with students. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:15:30]: Well, I think it's really important to know what's going on in the academic side of the house. Student affairs sometimes are siloed and don't think about student credit hour dollar generation or faculty policies or withdraw dates and things like that because they are focusing on the out of class experience. But students don't come typically to a university because of the out of class experiences. They're going because they have their major or they really like the academic rigor or they are is about the academics that they're drawn to because as we all know, they're a student leader, not a leader student. Mhmm. So academics you know, more about what's going on and the timelines, you should know when midterms are because you're going to be able to see a difference in your student. And you'll know when finals are because you might need to be more lenient with what the expectations are for your student leaders that week. So I think by being in the classroom, you're in tune with that schedule and what students are going through, and also are able to help support your students more because of your awareness. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:41]: What about in the inverse? What do you think that faculty are missing about the student affairs world, and how are you bringing that message in the other direction? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:16:48]: Yeah. I don't think faculty realize how important it is for students to be involved to develop those soft skills, which are so important in the real world regardless of what career path a student will go into. I'd like to tell students that your resume will get you the job, but your leadership skills get you the promotion. So sometimes faculty forget about those leadership skills and how important it is to be involved as a student leader so that you can gain those skills. So that when they are in the field that you are teaching in, they can rise and become stronger advocates for your field and to rise in different positions of the chain. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:26]: Any final thoughts for our listeners on the transitions between the faculty seat and the student affairs practitioner seat? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:17:34]: I would say teaching is a lot of fun. It really helps you think about the student experience in a different lens, and it's gonna make you a better practitioner practitioner if you're able to teach in the classroom because you're going to first learn about yourself and how to how to talk to students, how to interact with students, and that's going to translate into your practitioner role when you're doing workshops and presentations and even interviewing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:00]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:06]: Thanks so much, Joe. Great to be back in the NASPA world. And recently, there has been some transformative news about the future of the Center For First Generation Student Success that I wanted to share with all of you today. Since its founding in 2017 as a joint initiative between NASPA and the Souter Foundation, the center has enjoyed great success built upon the foundation set by Eric and Deb Suter and their success with the original First Scholars model. The center has far surpassed NASPA's original goals. Now with 27 staff members, the center offers a wide array of programmatic offerings, national events, informative research, and of course, a robust and growing network of partners at 349 institutions representing 49 states and the District of Columbia. When you combine that with the professional development, research, data, networking, advocacy, and all the other resources provided by the center, and you can easily see why it's become the premier organization in the field of 1st generation student success. The success has prompted the center to take the next step in its evolution. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:15]: The Center For First Generation Student Success is becoming its own 501c3 organization. The vision and goals since inception was for NASPA to incubate the center until it was established as a leader in the field. While it will technically be a separate organization, the center will remain strategic partners with NASPA, the professional home for student affairs and an organization that is committed to cultivating student success. NASPA's long standing partnership with Eric and Deb Souter and the Souter Foundation as cofounders remains vital to the center's success. Since partnering with NASPA to create the center, the suitors commitment to the continuous growth and long term sustainability of the organization is the foundation on which the center's success is built, while their passion for creating economic opportunity and belief in the potential of 1st generation students is unparalleled. The transition to a 501c3 organization offers many benefits, providing more partner opportunities for higher education institutions, more ways for the philanthropic community to influence 1st generation success and outcomes 1st generation success and outcomes, and more opportunities for the center to drive transform to drive transformational change for institutions nationwide. Keep an eye out for some other exciting changes, some different names, but the center will continue to offer the same outstanding program services and support that you've come to expect while also growing to meet the needs of an evolving field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:45]: Okay. We are back. Thank you, Chris, as always, for telling us what's going on in and around NASPA. There's a lot happening post conference, so I hope you've all made it home safely and you're gearing up towards the end of the year now. So we are very thrilled to be bringing you into our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Okay. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:03]: These are unscripted because I is my go to karaoke song. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:16]: And we're here at the conference right now. Kevin Kruger just literally entered to the Bee Gees Stayin' Alive and, like, did a disco dance on stage. It was actually really fun. Yes. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:27]: I don't know. You know, it was funny. I didn't have any women in my life who worked. Mhmm. And so that was a very interesting question. So I didn't really know what women did when I was 5. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Probably doctor Joe Paul from University of Southern Mississippi. He was our vice president of student affairs and is now the president. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:48]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:51]: Oh, probably beginning your journey for our graduate students to learn how to navigate your 1st year in the profession. That's a NASBA publication. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:00]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:03]: This is Us. It is amazing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:05]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:08]: the last year. Probably the student leadership programs knowledge community podcast, and I serve as a SLPKC co chair. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:15]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:18]: I would love to give a shout out to everyone I've met at this conference and everyone who I hope to connect with afterwards. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:25]: It's been a pleasure getting to know you and hearing about the faculty side of your journey. Mostly we talk with practitioners on our show, so it's really great to get the balance on the other side. If folks would like to connect with you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:38]: Sure. My email is Stacey.Malaret@ucf.edu. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:42]: Thank you so much, Stacey, for sharing your voice with us. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:45]: Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:48]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Cratney. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:29]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Diversity and Inclusion as Cornerstones In the latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton emphasizes a critical component of student affairs - the unwavering commitment to justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging (JEDIB). Our seasoned panelists, hailing from various colleges and universities, underscore the weight these principles carry in their day-to-day operations, extending to job searches, mentorship, and general support within their respective institutions. Intentional Hiring and Representation Several panelists, such as Aquanetta Pinkert and Dr. Adrienne White, spotlight the importance of creating an environment where everyone feels they belong. They stress intentional hiring practices that not only look at qualifications but also give weight to lived experiences, ensuring teams mirror the diversity of the student body they serve. Challenges and Alignment with Values The current landscape, fraught with challenges in states like Louisiana and Florida, demands an active demonstration of DEI values. Taylor Kane and Shatera Davis explain the necessity of aligning personal values with those of their employers to effectuate genuine change and advocate for marginalized communities. Growth and Empathy in Leadership Evolving as empathetic leaders is key. Panelists discuss the need to incorporate DEI into everyday work, language, and team collaborations, recognizing that personal growth stems from understanding and championing diverse perspectives. Leaders like Dilna Cama and Sabina Kapoor emphasize the dynamic nature of DEI and its role in shaping mentorship and advocacy within higher education. Support Systems and Professional Development Rachael Amaro and Stephanie Cochrane highlight support systems' centrality in fostering an inclusive environment for staff and students. Professional development tailored to understanding and serving diverse student populations is not just an additive; it is the foundation upon which equitable student support is built.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your SA Voices from the field host. Hello, SA Voices. This is our final bonus episode from the annual conference in which you shared with us your thoughts on the 3 conference foci areas. If you haven't listened to the other 2, go ahead and check back for the previous 2 weeks to listen to your responses there. For today's focus area, we're looking at justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging. And the question we asked all of you was how do considerations of JED IB influence your approach to job searching, mentorship, and or support in the profession of student affairs? You all had some incredible responses to this one. Please enjoy this part of the conversation, and again, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us. Acquanetta Pinkard [00:01:04]: I'm Acquanetta Pinkard. I am from Montgomery, Alabama. I work for Alabama State University and I am a trio professional for 23 years. It influences greatly because I believe everybody matters. Everybody matters, everybody in their respective place should have an opportunity to feel free, have a sense of belonging and be comfortable for whatever time that you you're in that space. So it's huge for me. Taylor Cain [00:01:33]: I'm Taylor Cain. I work at the University of Georgia and serve as the director of engagement leadership and service there. I think when it comes to DEI efforts, you know, trying to keep those things always at the front of your mind, recognizing my own privilege that I have and the identities that I hold, the experiences that I've been fortunate enough to have, recognizing they might extend it to everybody, whether because of identities they might hold or because they don't have the financial backing right to attend a conference as great as NASPA. But trying to keep those things in mind and make opportunities for folks to to experience what they can where they are, within the local locality of where they're at and what they're able to to do. I think when it comes to the work that we do in supporting students is recognizing how I show up, how I take the time to spend with folks to better understand their lived experience, let that inform how I approach my work. And always I think recognizing and and trying to approach it with a little bit of humility. I've always got more to learn. I mean, I certainly don't know at all. Taylor Cain [00:02:31]: So, I mean, I think that's that's certainly gonna be important. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, trying to find an employer or a place of employment that matches your values, where you feel like you can be yourself, that you can show up authentically and do good work, and to know that that you are salient to the purpose and mission of that institution. I think for me, I've I feel really lucky to be in a place where where those values align, but I've always encouraged folks that that whatever institution you're at may not always be it. And so trying to find opportunities where you at the end of the day can go home and feel good about what you're doing. Because that buy in, it's tough to sometimes achieve, but it's so important I think to your happiness and being feeling empowered in the role that you have. And so trying to find where you can have value alignment. Adrienne White [00:03:16]: I'm doctor Adrienne White. I'm the director of student success coaching at George Mason University, and I use sheher pronouns. So as a black woman in higher education, I think mentorship is extremely important. Personally, did not have a mentor that helped me, and guide me through these processes. I kinda had to figure it out on myself, on my own. And so, you know, that's part of the drive for me to run the success coaching program at George Mason University because I wanna be able to make sure that all students have the resources and the support that they need to succeed. I also am very intentional with who I hire on my team. I have one of the most diverse teams at George Mason University because I knew it was important that my team needed to represent the student body. Adrienne White [00:04:02]: We're one of the most diverse institutions in the country. Therefore, my team needed to reflect that as well. And so I prioritize who I hire and making sure that it's not just, you know, on look, it's on experiences, it's on background. It's it's encompassing everything to give everybody the opportunity, to work in student affairs because it's a field of belonging and inclusion, and it really starts at the top and making sure that we're intentional in our hiring decisions. Susan Hua [00:04:33]: Hi. My name is Susan Hua. I use sheher pronouns, and I'm the director of diversity, equity, inclusion at the Community College of Aurora, which is an MSI HSI just outside of Denver, Colorado. Diversity, equity, inclusion plays a really, really big role for me when I job search or when I think about mentorship relationships or support. I think it's the foundation of everything that we do, and I know that with the current landscape of DEI being under attack in different states, it's ever more important for us to think about ways that we're centering DEI work for employees and for students, and to really think about how we're centering equity at the heart of the work that we're doing to embrace change for students in the future and to really ensure that higher education is open access for folks. Aileen Hentz [00:05:12]: My name is Aileen Hentz. I'm at the University of Maryland as the program director of academic and student services. This is something that has been important to me since essentially day one, even long before I started my journey within higher education. I think for me, I'm looking for different opportunities and ways to better myself professionally by constantly expanding my network of support, places and people that I can, work and collaborate with to help better help students. I think also I've now, at this point, pushed harder. I don't just accept answers to questions that I don't think are fair or just. I try to see what I can do to help push an issue further, to really try to inspire broader and bigger change. To me, it's not just enough these days to just refer a student who's struggling with something to somewhere else, like our counseling center or our multicultural advocacy group. I still do that, but I also think to myself, well, what more can I do? And so I'll try to bring things to our department level and change policy within our department. And even within our diversity council at the college level, I'll bring different issues that I see or hear from my students to them to try and really push for change on a broader scale. Stephen Rice [00:06:27]: Stephen Rice, director of the Office of Community Expectations at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, California. It's important to really that people are seen in your positions, and so really thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion should be a foundation and framework in all the work that we do, especially with those we hire because our students are diverse populations, and so they should see the people that they often meet with may look like them too. And so if everyone looks the same, they're not able to really provide a different unique experience and opportunity for students. Often times, there's a trust that students may have, and when they see someone that looks like them, they're able to go to those individuals and create more tools and other opportunities for them to really grow and reach and be mentored so they'd be successful students and work forward. And then it's also with the staff that we have. When you're the only one, it's tough. And so when you're able to bring a very diverse, unique experience, people feel supported, they feel seen, and they provide the same for the students that they serve. Amy Adam [00:07:19]: Hi. This is Amy Adam and I am from the University of Missouri in Columbia. I have been a student services support manager for 20 years, serving graduate students with diversity, equity, and inclusion that does very much influence my approach to mentorship and support in my profession. We have a lot of international students that we make sure that they feel supported and connected to campus. And I know they face a lot of adversity coming from another country, especially in the Midwest, so we really strive to make sure that they feel supported. And I'm also doing some work with students with disabilities as I finish up my master's in higher ed. So that's been really, really just enjoyable and satisfying to help that population of students make sure that they feel connected to campus, that they feel that sense of belonging, and show them that they can advocate for themselves and have a voice because their voice matters. So, really, we just kinda try to keep that in our mindset in our daily work just to make sure that those students are supported. Stephanie Cochrane [00:08:27]: Hi. I'm Stephanie Cochrane. I'm the director of student services at Northeastern University in Toronto. I'm here for NASPA for just the Sunday pre conference around graduate students. Well, one of my passion projects since I started in the role was a mentorship program, a peer mentorship program. And so thinking about our international students, they really are looking for mentorship, guidance, support, any advice from their peers, and they're more likely to listen to their peers than to us sometimes. So thinking about the DEI piece, they feel that sense of belonging when there's somebody who's been through a similar experience to them. So having them connected with a mentor from their very first semester before they even arrive in Canada is super helpful for them with not just understanding navigating the Canadian landscape, the Toronto city, the cost of living, and then, of course, their academic journey. So having that is a really helpful way to think about DEI because it's from that peer to peer support, which is sometimes missing in higher education. Shatera Davis [00:09:28]: Hi. My name is Shatera Davis. I use sheher pronouns. I'm the director of student affairs at Northeastern in Seattle. I mean, it's embedded in my identity as a black person, as a queer person. I can't work in a space that doesn't have that as core values. And if I choose a place that's like that, then I can find really quickly that it doesn't align with my values. And so it's probably the one it's the most important thing because it's who I am visibly. Shatera Davis [00:09:50]: And so as I move and as I navigate to different higher ed institutions, I'm very direct in my questions, like, what have they done for historically marginalized students? What do they do for staff? What did they do during the pandemic? How were they kind to their staff in this new remote era and hybrid era? Like, how are they giving their staff benefits? And, like, those kinds of things, I'm asking those intentional questions because I wanna make sure that I'm in alignment with the values. It doesn't mean the higher education institution is bad, it just means it's not right for me. And so I just make sure that it's always in alignment for me because it's personal. I mean, it's embedded in my identity as a black person, as a queer person. I can't work in a space that doesn't have that as core values. And if I choose a place that's like that, then I can find really quickly that it doesn't align with my values and so it's probably the one it's the most important thing because it's who I am visibly and so as I move and as I navigate to different higher ed institutions, I'm very direct. My question is, like, what have they done for historically marginalized students? What do they do for staff? What did they do during the pandemic? How were they kind to their staff in this new remote era and hybrid era? Like, how are they giving their staff benefits? And, like, those kinds of things, I'm asking those intentional questions because I wanna make sure that I'm in alignment with the values. It doesn't mean the higher education institution is bad, it just means it's not right for me, and so I just make sure that it's always in alignment for me because it's personal. Andy Wiegert [00:11:12]: I am Andy Wiegert, director of graduate student affairs, Arts and Sciences, Washington University in St. Louis. Yes, this has to actually, in my opinion, start from the moment we are interviewing candidates for positions and bringing people to our campus is that everything should be looked at through the lens of equity and the lens of inclusion. And so from the start, my stance, our stance is to be asking those questions upfront. So how do you define anti racism? How do you define things like this? Will you be a fit to be an actual mentor who recognizes this need for diversity? So we're doing that at the very, very early stages. That then translates to training, development, things like that, but if we're not doing it out of the gates, then we're gonna run into problems down the road. Scott Peska [00:12:01]: Hi. Scott Peska, Waubonsee Community College, Assistant Provost of Student Services. I think in all three of these areas, job searching, mentorship, and support for the profession of student affairs, there's probably nothing more important than equity and injustice and looking at place that you're looking at to the the values of the institution reflect what your values are and you know and so as a student affairs professionals something that has come to my heart is just making sure that we can care for all of our students and that we can try to help them succeed no matter what their background and making sure that we can put the necessary supports there. And so if the institution doesn't have those same values, we gotta be able to look at that. And so I've always looked at it when job searching. I think when mentoring, talking to individuals, making sure that I'm reaching out to be able to provide those kind of supports all across the way. Dilna Cama [00:12:48]: Dilna Cama. I am a director within student life at the Ohio State University, and I am part of the off campus and commuter knowledge community. I think that is part of our everyday life. It has to be something that we have ingrained not in just the work that we do, but the language we use, how we work with our teams, making sure that they not only understand where their perspective is coming from, but how that impacts other individuals on a team, in a community, whatever that might look like. Sabina Kapoor [00:13:21]: My name is Sabina Kapoor, and I'm currently a full time doctoral student with Capella University. I spent over 20 years in higher education as a staff within student affairs, student success, and academic affairs. So as I've progressed in my career, I've focused more on staff so that they can better serve students. And I wanna go in deep with that, so that's why I'm pursuing the doctorate relationship between the organization and the employee. I'm gonna reference Pamela Hayes' model. If you've ever the acronym is ADDRESSING, and so it's looking at different different categories from age to disability to religion to sexual orientation, sexual gender identification, etcetera. And so all these different categories, a person could potentially be, what Pamela Hayes says is oppressed in some categories and privileged in others. So, for example, as a minority woman who's heterosexual, I'm privileged in the sexual orientation, but I'm repressed in the gender category and also in the ethnic and cultural category. Sabina Kapoor [00:14:32]: So it's interesting because idea of minoritized is not all one side, you are minoritized or you're not. It's kind of looking at different facets of that. So I say that because I use that as a premise with anything. So when I'm looking for a job, when I'm mentoring others, I try to remember inclusivity and look at things from the other's perspective. And I'll be honest, my oppressed areas have been like traditional ones. So with emerging ones, and I'm in a privileged position, it's really interesting. It's I had to see things from a privileged lens, and that was an interesting learning experience because I'd never been in that situation. So I say that because it's all shapes and influences all of this, how I mentor, how I support others and advocate. My last position, I was a dean for student success at a dual designated HBU and HSI. And I think advocacy was probably the top thing that I was doing while I was there. So so all that to say, DEI, it's not just my premise, it's who I am. So it really influences everything that what I do in my career. Carlie Weaver [00:15:44]: Hello. I am Carlie Weaver with Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I'm a programs coordinator for the student activities in Union office. I did one of my assistantships with University of South Alabama during my grad school career, and so I did that with the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Office, and it's something that I like to think about a lot when I'm making decisions, especially with such a student facing role. I like to think of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging before I make pretty much any choice because I know that it is so influential in students' lives. So, even when I'm thinking about, like, what kind of programming to bring to campus, I'm thinking about the different populations that we have and what is of interest to those populations. Roxanne Wright Watson [00:16:33]: Hi. My name is Roxanne Wright Watson. I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Pennsylvania, and I'm happy to be here. I think it is not a matter of influencing because the bills of that will be paid. So so we need to make sure that it's for me, 1st and foremost, it is I think I just need to go to work, do what I gotta do, and go home. But having equity, diversity, and all of that within the institution is an added thing that now gives me help me to broaden my scope, help me to blossom, to bloom where I'm at. So it is an institution that support these values and goals, then I am more open. I give more of my self than it would be if I am just at an institution that is just not supportive of these values. Carla Ortega Santori [00:17:34]: My name is Carla Ortega Santore. I work at Rice University. I am the strategic initiatives manager at the Doerr Institute For New Leaders at Rice University. And my job is really about helping students elevate their leadership capacity and to also elevate the capacity of all campuses to do really great leader developments in education. I'm actually from Puerto Rico, so whenever I'm looking for a job or when I'm looking for a mentor, I'm looking to see other familiar faces in the room, like, I'm seeing where I'm represented, seeing the kinds of students we work with. So that that's one thing I I usually look for. I also look for concrete ways, examples. I guess another way that influences my day to day professional life is when I also see I'm a IO psychologist by education, so I also look for research that's represented in that. So any evidence of impact, measurable outcomes that we see that are related to people of color and other underrepresented minorities is really important when I and I'm looking for any evidence based practices to apply, to implement with students, or for any support in the profession. Rachael Amaro [00:18:55]: I'm Rachael Amaro. I'm the admissions and academic advisor for the Department of Educational Leadership within the College of Education at Cal State Fullerton. I think that, I mean, for sure with the mentorship piece, it's I have had a hard time finding people that I could rely on when I first started, but I think that's made me a little more active in trying to be a mentor to others. And I really appreciate the the trust that I can build with the team that I work with. You know, I have I have one immediate colleague in my department, but then all of us in in our college are on the same floor of the building we're in, and so it's been really great to get to know everybody and to make the time and the space for each other, and then because I've been there, for sure I've been on campus a lot longer than a lot of them, and so trying to let them know, you know, sort of what's what's going on, how to navigate things, especially because a lot of them, it's their first time working at a university, and I think it's really so important because most of us happen to be Latinx that a lot of the new hires have been, and so it's been really important to me to let them know things even about making sure sure they're putting money in their retirement, making sure they're doing these things that we just didn't necessarily always get taught. And even things as simple as, hey, when you're taking a vacation day, like, really take a vacation day. Use your time because you need to. Because we're so used to not being told how to navigate that from people in a supervisory positions who aren't used to the diversity that's coming up into the field. And so I think that's a really important part. Again, we talk about the hidden curriculum a lot for the students, but there's a hidden side for staff as well. And so when we come from families and parents who worked in factories and had a very different way of living and working, we also have to learn how to navigate these systems that we're now working in. And I think it's important to be able to share that with them so that they don't feel isolated or alienated and they feel like we're in this together. Christine Wilson [00:21:00]: I'm Christine Wilson. I am in student affairs at UCLA. I have two roles. 1 is as the executive director for academic partnerships and the other is the program director for our masters in student affairs program. I think that justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion are at the forefront of everything that I do. It's a principle of our organization. It's part of the mission of our school of education where I'm program director and I teach. Our campus is incredibly diverse and if we don't consider that, then we are not serving our students. So if that's not something people are on board with, then they should not come to UCLA. Olivia Ruggieri [00:21:42]: Hi there. My name is Olivia Ruggieri. I'm the associate director of administration operations for Northeastern University Seattle campus. I grew up in Pennsylvania, went to college in Florida, and came out here in 2013, but I've been working for the university since 2018. Well, my area, while we are definitely not HR, we do support searches on our campus. So one of my staff members, he will assist hiring managers in doing an inch initial evaluation of candidates and then help them design their searches. But recognizing that while we've made improvements in this area, we're not doing it as well as we could be. This summer, we're gonna be establishing a group that will ultimately create a set of DEI hiring standards, and we wanna make sure that there's strong representation from all types of folks on our campus, faculty, staff, and hopefully students, to ensure that we're hiring in the most equitable way. And I have to say that, like, since this has become a focus of mine, I look at job descriptions differently and just what I've learned about how to hire equitably and certain phrases raise flags for me because I realized that they may not represent welcomeness to all. So it's just become part of my practice and how I evaluate different opportunities. Christle Foster [00:23:04]: Hi. My name is Christle Foster and I'm from Chesapeake College located on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in Y Mills. When it comes to my staff, because of the work that we do, so student focused, definitely diversity, equity, and inclusion is a part of that, especially with the populations we serve in Trio. That's definitely what we do as part of our mission. So when it comes to choosing staff and helping staff go through professional development, that's some of the things that we always look at. Whether it's in terms of ethnicity, accessibility, or ability, or unabilities in regards to education. We recently did, training with the University of Delaware who has a special program that's focused on students who are new or divergent, and it was exemplary. What they are doing there with a grant is just amazing. So we were able to get some information from them on how to help our students who are neurodivergent, or some of them are on spectrum, so to speak. Nathalie Waite Brown [00:24:03]: My name is Nathalie Waite Brown. I am the assistant dean of students and director for graduate student life at Stevens Institute of Technology located in Hoboken, New Jersey. I think I approach those areas first and foremost from a personal perspective, notwithstanding all of the visible identities that I carry, I'm a 1st generation student, parents who migrated to the US in the early seventies. So I work with a large international student population, and I take those identities very much in leading how I work with them and being able to understand the potential need that's in front of them. And that runs the gamut. It's not limited to who I am, but also having a level of empathy and support in guiding the work and the resources that students need. Dae'lyn Do [00:24:50]: My name is Dae'Lyn Do. I use sheher pronouns, and I am the associate director for the women in science and engineering residence program at the University of Michigan. And I am coming into the position of the WISA KC co chair. I think specifically when it comes to mentorship, something I always take into consideration that I do try to do myself, but I also encourage my students to do is to seek out a variety of different mentors who have different lived experiences. And so not just, I think we oftentimes talk about finding mentors who look like us or who share similar identities with us, which is really important, but I also think it's important to seek out folks who maybe don't because we learn different perspectives and different ways of looking at things that we might not if we just rely on the people who have the same lived experiences as us. And so, I think when it comes to thinking through our own efforts of justice and equity, our mentors are the people that we learn from and so trying to diversify our own support network is the best way to kind of get those different experiences and support. Natalie DeRosa [00:25:55]: So my name is Natalie DeRosa, and I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Schnecksville, Pennsylvania. I would say that those two terms, justice and equity, are central when I am doing job searching. Not only how the organization embraces those concepts, but also the person who is my direct support, that they are equity minded and justed justice minded themselves makes or breaks whether or not I feel like that organization is the right organization for me. Dan Volchek [00:26:25]: Dan Volchek, assistant dean of student success at Harvard Griffin Grad School of Arts and Sciences. I look at DEI as a very important piece of dealing with my job search, mentorship, and support. I try to look at what we're doing with both our faculty, our staff, and our students in the DEI world and making sure we're addressing all of those issues and challenges that others may be facing that I may not have faced to make sure that I'm dealing with DEI in a positive manner. Vaughn Calhoun [00:27:00]: Vaughn Calhoun, Seton Hall University, hehim. Yeah. I think looking for places and people with high social emotional intelligence, knowing that any place that I would think about or people I wanna engage with, that there's a high sense of empathy to help build those lasting relationships. Because I think without the empathy, it's it's hard to really move to higher levels of conversation. So if you could find that in organization and people, you found something really good. Darlene Robinson [00:27:37]: My name is Darlene Robinson. I'm the RISE gen 1 director for Seton Hall University. I think it influences the career in the sense that I want to be on a level playing field. I wanna be considered as a person that is capable of certain things rather than just basing it off of filling a quota. I think it is fair enough to accept people for who they are and get to know them for them them as a person first before not even before, but without passing judgment based on certain discriminatory practices. Because in doing that, you get to know the person first and understand that we're all connected in some way. Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:28:20]: Hello. My name is Miguel Angel Hernandez. I am the associate vice president and dean of students at San Francisco State University. What attracted me to student affairs to begin with is my curiosity about humans and human beings. And what has sustained me 24 years in this profession at this point in my life has been the curiosity that continues about the people I get to interact with, the students that continue to change and evolve and allow me to grow, and in many ways, stay young because we have to keep up, not keep up in a bad way, but just it is never a dull moment learning from our students, learning from our colleagues. And so when I think about DEI work, I think about my curiosity about life and how we evolve as people. I think about my own journey, how different I am today than when I first moved into my residence hall. I think about the beautiful places I've been able to visit and serve and work and the stories of those people, those places, those moments in time. Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:29:17]: And so for me, DEI work is not about difference. It is about the stories of people, the stories of places that we get to visit and explore and learn. And so for me, I really think about that when I am mentoring, coaching, supervising, engaging with students. I think about it in my own search. As I consider opportunities, I think about what do I bring into spaces, what can I gain from spaces, And I use those thoughts to formulate questions for either the individuals that are asking me to consider a position and or while I am engaging in the search process? And so those types of aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion, I think, keep that work very centered, very front, and create opportunities for us to continue again learning and growing in our profession. David Chao [00:30:07]: Hello. My name is David Chao. My pronouns are hehim. I serve as the director of IT for student affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, and I'm also the chair of the technology knowledge community. As a first generation Asian American, you know, it's really important for me. I think coming to higher education from the corporate world, I think I've seen and been exposed to a very healthy environment where we're trying to be more open to all ideas and diversity is really, really important. It's strange because being an Asian American, as a minority, you think I'd be more sensitive to that, but I guess I didn't really always see that. And so I feel like my eyes are much more open to it, and my ability to help others and mentor and foster a collaborative and diverse environment, which is a challenge in our society today. Melinda Stoops [00:30:47]: Hi. I am Melinda Stoops. I serve as the associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. I think even though I've been in student affairs for a long time, I feel like this is one area that I consider a growth area. I am a middle aged white woman, and my background and my experiences certainly are related to my identity in in many ways. And I feel like the longer I'm in higher ed, the more I'm interacting with increasingly a more diverse student body, the more I have to learn. And so I just feel like as I do my work, whether it's being supervised or supervising, whether it's mentoring or being mentored, I feel like increasingly I really focus on being open to not making assumptions either about the other person, but also not making assumptions that even if I'm in a mentoring role that I have all the answers. That really, I have a lot to learn as well and taking time to really understand the person I'm working with and where they're coming from and their perspectives and sort of maximizing the impact we can both have on each other. Derek Grubb [00:31:54]: Derek Grubb, Dean of Enrollment Management for Red Rocks Community College in Colorado. In terms of justice and equity, one of the biggest things I've been trying to do lately is really recognize to avoid agendas. And not so much agendas and meetings, but agendas in terms of having a predetermined outcome and really accepting people where they are and being able to really just sort of embrace those opportunities for challenging conversations and looking for new perspectives. So up on my wall right now is the, no agendas policy. Matt Imboden [00:32:28]: My name is Matt Imboden. I use the he, him pronouns. I serve as the chief student services officer in the School of Business at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. And, for the past few years, I've also been chairing the administrators and graduate and professional student services knowledge community for NASPA. All those things I want. The funny thing about diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice work is it's one in the same with overall student success, sense of belonging, it's a 100% connected to student well-being. And so, sometimes I think we create these bifurcations and divisions and we create this little bucket and label it, you know, diversity programming. But especially as I think there's a lot of renewed pressures on those roles and leaders with the people that are exponents of those values that are institutions. It's even more important to just talk about the ways in which, no, our ability to recruit and retain students is one in the same with being good at that work. And for some reason, I think it takes on a life of its own or becomes a bit of a specter when people try to apply those labels in only certain places. But if we wanna win as institutions in the 21st century in the marketplaces we work in, you gotta figure out how all the things you just mentioned apply to your day in day out work. Evette Castillo Clark [00:33:36]: Evette Castillo Clark, vice president for student life and dean of students at Lewis and Clark College, Portland, Oregon. So this is super important and critical because with job searching, with mentoring, and our profession, it is really important for us to have diverse professionals, diverse thinking, embracing different perspectives because it makes us rich, and it makes the whole organization stronger. So in our recruitment procedures, one of my things is that I want to make sure that whoever is, for example, sharing a search, that you've worked every angle to make sure that you have racial diversity, gender diversity, regional diversity, just a broad spectrum of backgrounds to get to the semifinalist pool and then also to try to get to the finalist pool. You make every effort to do that, and I employ that same model with student leadership. So in elections or looking at who do we want on our student employment to employ as student workers, orientation leaders, RAs. You want that to be a cross section because if you're doing community building work, you have to have leadership that looks like the people that you serve. Madeline Frisk [00:34:48]: Hello. My name is Madeline Frisk. I work at Portland State University. I'm the coordinator of student government relations and advisor to Greek life. So I work with our student government, all of the committees and groups within that, as well as 4 strong and mighty small Greek life groups as well. I would say I especially think of diversity, equity, and inclusion in terms of how I support students and show up. At PSU, we have a lot of non traditional students. We're also becoming an emerging HSI and Anapisa institution. So I think about how I'm showing up and my identities, how I can better serve students, and I try to stay well informed, read, do a lot of research and background work so that I'm showing up for them and also try to provide them all the training that I can. It also helps to have other coworkers and people you can rely on to kind of fill in any gaps too. So I think that's really helped as well having people and allies in your life that you can rely on as well as, good coworkers and team as well as kind of with the support in the profession of student affairs. I recently started a book club at our institution within our LGBT affinity employee resource group and that's really helped me to kind of also build even more support for myself in this work and also people who I know I can rely on that can be additional supports for my students. So that's been really great. Gene Zdziarski [00:36:15]: This is Gene Zdziarski. I'm vice president for student affairs at DePaul University. I think it's been one of the things that I find in my career trying to find a place where that sense of diversity and inclusion really is embraced and a part of things. I work at a Catholic university, and a lot of people have different opinions about the Catholic faith and everything else, but what I have to say is when I interviewed for the job there, one of the things I wanted to make sure was that, again, there was a sense of diversity, appreciation, and openness. We had an LGBTQA center. We had, LGBTQ studies. We have embraced other faiths and people, and that was extremely important to me. And I think something that perhaps people don't always look at when they look at a faith based institution, but I think you'll find that, again, that's an important piece of higher education, an important piece of our work in my career in student affairs. Lyza Liriano [00:37:10]: Hello. My name is Lyza Liriano. I currently serve as an area coordinator at DePaul University in Housing and Residence Life. Originally, I am from Brooklyn, New York. It influences it a it a lot. I'm a queer woman of color, and so I want to make sure that the spaces that I walk into are going to be spaces where I feel safe and where there are students that look like me so that they know that they can come to me. My identity is very intersectional, and I think that that's one of my favorite parts of my identity, and there's been spaces that I've stepped into where I've had to choose, okay, am I going to focus on being a black woman today? Am I going to focus on being a queer woman today? And so creating those spaces of you can be all of that at once. And when I'm job searching, that is something that I'm very intentional about asking is what work do you do apart from sending students to the Black Student Center or the LGBTQ Student Center? What is your department actually doing to help these students? And so I also want it to be just someone that students can come to because I've been in spaces where I'm sometimes the only woman of color, and so I wanna make sure my students know, like, I'm creating space for myself so that in, you know, years to come when my students are out in the field, hopefully in student affairs, they also are going to have multiple seats at the table not just the one. Jackie Cetera [00:38:28]: Jackie Cetera. I use sheher pronouns, and I serve as the director of residential education at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. I find it's all in how people show up in their day to day and what they're doing to not only support students on our campus, but also employees, both faculty and staff. When we talk about the sense of belonging, I believe that it's really important for us as leaders, as our institutions to make sure that our faculty and staff have a sense of belonging so they can show up and do good work and provide opportunities and spaces for our students to also find that sense of belonging. Lisa Landreman [00:39:15]: My name is Lisa Landerman. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. Similarly, I stay abreast of current issues. I am doing my own work through institutes, 1 on 1 consulting and every opportunity I can to talk with other colleagues around best practices, most effective strategies. I I also really try to center relationships so that there's this there's the book learning and research of our trends, but then there's also every individual's gonna have their own experience and their multiple identities that are gonna shape their experience at our particular institution. So, how I handle that and manage kind of issues of justice and equity, whether it's around language, practices, programs, initiatives in Oregon is different than when I was in Rhode Island, is different when I was at the University of Michigan. And so I think context matters, listening to our staff, again, creating space, trying to support affinity relationships for where that matters to people, sure that we are constantly looking at our policies, practices through an equity lens. And so every time we're writing a new policy, we look at that lens. Lisa Landreman [00:40:27]: At least once a year, we take a moment to reflect on new programs, policies, or practices to ask questions. Who's at this event? Who does this impact? Who who's included? Whose voice was at the table when we created it? So all those kinds of checklists that come with looking at the subtle ways that the work that we do might impact people that of groups we're not members for some ways. Celebrating and recognizing heritage month's accomplishments of diverse folks in in our both in our community. I think in hiring, we do a lot to look at what biases do we bring, what biases we have that might not be about race, but that biases we have about the field or the job that might have an impact on people from different racial groups or identity groups. Right? And so it isn't always so overt, so I think doing our work around. Before every search, we do we we really come to the table and say, so what are our biases about? And we look at a resume. And, you know, we really scrutinize our job descriptions to make sure do are all those qualifications really necessary? Is that many years of experience really necessary? Are we really waiting what can really be learned on the job, and what really do people have to have experience coming? So those are those are all ways that we subtly sort of can bias our searches. Those are just some I could go on and on, but I I think the important point about this is that especially in this time, regardless of what's happening with legislators, we as individuals can shape our own practice to demonstrate where these values matter regardless of what offices aren't allowed to be in my campus. That's still a battle we need to fight. And just because that battle's being fought, doesn't mean it stops us from doing centering that as an important value. Jackie Yun [00:42:08]: Hi. I'm Jackie Yun. I take the she series, and I serve as the executive director of the Harvard Griffin GSAS Student Center. I think it impacts everything. So I really am somebody who believes that DEI is not just held with folks that have that in their title, but it's really the responsibility of everyone at an institution to be considering that. And I think about this from my own experiences, whether or not I feel like I'm included in a community, but also in my management, my hiring, the way that I scaffold spaces for students, and so I think it's really important work. Leanna Fenneberg [00:42:44]: Hello. This is Leanna Fenenberg. I'm the incoming chief student affairs officer at Duquesne University. Oh my gosh. Isn't that a big question? Right? I mean, I feel like for most of us, for many of us in student affairs, DEI work is at the core of our values and what we do and why we do it. So it's to professional searches, to professional development, to building a community of support for our students and for our staff. And so it is central to everything we do. Jake Murphy [00:43:16]: Jake Murphy. I'm the director of prospective students services at OSU Institute of Technology, and I am over all recruitment and retention efforts at the university. So for me, it's probably a really big thing, but it's really tough in the state that I'm at because there's a whole mess concerning DEI work and justice and equity and inclusion work. So for me personally, it's a big factor in where I choose to go to work. I wanna make sure that the environment that I'm at is focused on making sure that the whole student is taken care of, but being place bound sometimes it makes it a little bit difficult. But also creating those environments is also really key and making sure that students feel supported, that they have a sense of community, and are able to be able to go through their out their student journey is extremely important. And mentorship for us, especially in, like, peer mentorship is very important to be able to create those spaces. Larry Pakowski [00:44:13]: Larry Pakowski. I'm the vice president for student engagement, inclusion, and success at Aims Community College in Greeley, Colorado. I think we've gotta to look at the students we serve and at the end of the day that's one of the things that we want to be reflective of who we serve but we also want to embrace the the variety of different diverse cultures and backgrounds and things like that. Not only our students have, but our employees should have as well. Jillaine Zenkelberger [00:44:37]: Hi. I'm doctor Jillaine Zenkelberger. I am the program coordinator over at Graduate Student Life at the University of Notre Dame. I think in my approach to all of these things, having the ability to touch base with a lot of people from different I don't have a master's in higher ed and things like that. Being able to see the diversity in our different backgrounds both educationally, but also racially, ethnically, etcetera, has been super important to me. And I think we bring all these different things to the table, and it's really been great to learn from everyone and their backgrounds of whatever they've done in their past lives, because I know all of us have many past lives sometimes. They're all bringing something, like, super important that I think is really invigorating student affairs because I work with a lot of people who's had past lives and they're really changing things in a lot of cool ways. Kristen Merchant [00:45:48]: Hi everyone. I'm Kristen Merchant. I am from Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I am the associate director of the Union and Student Activities Office there and also the director of our lead programs. With job searching, I think about whenever I'm doing my hiring actually for orientation. We always put an effort into putting a cohesive team together of a variety of different backgrounds and interests and majors and all the different ways that diversity can come into play. So that way, all of our new incoming students can see a face that they recognize, which is really, really important in the DEI world and is something that we always consider in any type of our hiring practices and any type of programming that I do is making sure that there is someone that they feel like they can go to. Joe Lizza [00:46:35]: My name is doctor Joe Lizza. I'm the director of the Chamberlain Student Center and campus activities at Rowan University in New Jersey. It really is the idea that you want an institution that is respectful for others, supportive of others because you never know when you might be on that opposite side of the situation. So you might be in an institution or in a job role that you feel very comfortable, supported and you feel like you belong and it's very easy to kinda based on a different supervisor or a different university leadership, that could shift. I always look for places that really are respectful, very forward thinking, and they don't only just preach what their beliefs are and their values, but they also put them into action. And that's kinda reassuring to me as a professional in higher education for both for myself and my colleagues. I'm realizing that it's a good place to work, a place that will be supportive of life changes and different situations. Joshua Allred [00:47:32]: My name's Joshua Allred. I work at Louisiana State University in the College of Agriculture as their manager of student services. That's challenging. It's certainly something that is on my mind constantly. I think living in Louisiana and in the South where there's lots of legislation recently, sort of very much anti DEI has been a challenge. So I'm not in a place where I can kind of up and move, unfortunately. I would in some ways, I kinda wish I could. So being on a campus and in a state where there's lots of uncertainty around, like, what does DEI look like in our state has been a challenge. Joshua Allred [00:48:01]: And so we are very much in a place of kind of waiting to see what's gonna happen next. And again, I think finding folks where folks and groups of people where you can hold onto and feel safe and find little beacons of hope is helpful. It's not always there, but I'm a supervisor for an LGBTQIA plus organization in the College of Agriculture and that's been really helpful for me and something that I really knew and renewed importance in. And so that's kind of what I look towards is like the people and and the small things here and there. But certainly a consideration is just tough. It's tough when you can't move. Joshua Allred [00:48:38]: Well, one of the things that I really enjoy about my job is being able to support and work with students, and those are all students, ethnicities, genders. Just being able to support those students in coming to NASPA and being able to learn from experts on how to best support students no matter who they are, no matter where they're from. So at Texas A&M, they give me the opportunity to go to professional development. They give me the opportunity to collaborate with my peers around the country. And during those times, that's what I wanna do. I'm always making sure that I'm talking to the experts in the field to make sure that I'm doing the best to support our students. Judy Traveis [00:49:28]: Hi, everyone. I'm Judy Traveis. I'm the associate dean for the Graduate Student Success Center at the University of Florida. Again, from Florida, we've had DEI impacted, although we all believe in the diversity and what it brings to our campus and the inclusion and and equity piece. I believe institutions that do it well and thread it through all factors of the university, you can really see it. It's tangible and that in as I job search or look for other careers, if I should move institutions, that is something that's very important and I hold as a value in my heart to make sure that that it's not just on a website, that you can actually physically see how it's threaded through by the way the community and culture is on that campus. Katie Caponera [00:50:23]: I'm Katie Caponera, director of student life at Harvard Divinity School. A commitment to all of those tenants, particularly justice, is really important to me personally and professionally. I'm fortunate to work at an institution where that is a key aspiration and goal of our community, and it's something that I would continue to foreground in looking at other types of institutions or future colleagues or partners. It's making sure all of our students feel that it's a space where they can thrive and be their full selves is of paramount importance and continuing to remain dedicated to those efforts, especially admit so much turmoil, I think, is underlines their importance more so. Kathy Dilks [00:51:11]: My name is Kathy Dilks, and I am the director of graduate student and post doctoral affairs at the Icahn to create a team that is not only diverse, but diverse of thoughts. I think it's our responsibility to make certain that we are leaning into DEIB, and I try my hardest to make certain that I am never an impediment in that future. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:51:47]: Julie Payne Kirchmeier, vice president for student success for the university Indiana University. It's not really a system. It's a multi campus university, but we can say Indiana University System if that's easier for folk to kind of place the role. It's interesting the word considerations. How do considerations of, show up for me, good and bad, before I can lean into anything else. And I think that's a step we don't often do, particularly and we just jump into, oh, oh, well, of course, you know, Jedi work is important, and of course we're gonna do that. But because we don't stop and pause pause and think and unlearn a lot of what we know, we end up rushing to action so quickly, we cause more harm. And so I think that first step for me, because the question is influence your, is to pause, think, and remember that I have to be okay with who I am, good and bad, take the steps to do my own work, and then bring others into the fold, like, okay. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:52:54]: What are the resources we need in meaningful ways so that the work can move through always a lens of equity. So being an equity minded organization, human, professional, friend, partner, all the different components of your life. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:53:10]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:53:51]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Empowering Student Voices:  The Digital Transformation The use of social media in higher education has evolved from a platform for personal expression to a crucial tool for professional development and student engagement. Dr. Josie Ahlquist shared her expertise on digital leadership, emphasizing how social media gives students and educators alike the power to craft their own narratives. Gone are the days when online behavior was solely interpreted through a lens of fear; instead, we must encourage responsible and purposeful digital engagement. Revolutionizing Campus Culture: From Traditional to Trailblazing The episode highlighted the need to transcend traditional roles and embrace the flexible, interconnected nature of campus culture. The drive to humanize the workplace converges with the desire to inspire meaningful mentorship and collaboration, both within student affairs and across various campus departments.  A Visionary Approach to Student Engagement Dr. Alquist's curriculum, based on the social change model, teaches students to harness social media's potential for advocacy, community building, and change. Meanwhile, Dr. Jill Creighton's research brings to light the positive impact of social media on academic success, further advocating for its inclusion in student support strategies. Leading by Example: The Entrepreneurial Leap in Higher Education Chronicling her journey from campus professional to CEO, Dr. Alquist offers a candid look at the challenges and mental health tolls of entrepreneurial endeavors. Her experience underscores the importance of self-reflection, support systems, and the willingness to take risks - foundational elements that redefine professional growth in student affairs. An Invitation to Shape the Future Dr. Ahlquist and Dr. Creighton invite you to reflect on their own relationship with social media and its integration into higher education, encouraging continuous adaptation to the digital habits of a new generation of students. This conversation not only serves as a call to action for today's educators but a bridge to the untapped potential of tomorrow's student affairs landscape.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Welcome back for our next episode, and I'm going to be bringing back something that we haven't done in a little while, which is a crossover episode with another podcast. You'll hear us talk about this in the heart of the show, but we are doing a crossover today with doctor Josie Alquist's podcast called Josie and the podcast. So the part one of this conversation drops on her show feed, and this is part 2 of that conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: But first, let me introduce you to Josie. Dr. Josie Alquist guides educational leaders, organizations, and students to practice purpose full digital leadership through speaking, coaching, and consulting. Her practical evidence based frameworks empower clients to build and implement a digital engagement strategy that fits their life, audience, and purpose. Josie's work is grounded in the grant funded and award winning research that has allowed her to train 1,000 around the globe as a speaker, providing consulting services to institutions and companies, and coach professionals in branding, voice, and positioning. Josie's work has appeared in the Handbook Student Affairs Dialogues on Equity, Civility, and Safety. She also served as a co editor and author of The New Directions in Student Services volume, Engaging the Digital Generation and the New Directions in Student Leadership Volume, Going Digital in Student Leadership. In 2023, Dr. Alquist was selected as a NASPA pillar of the profession, one of the highest honors in our field in student affairs. She's a 3 time LinkedIn top voice in education and has been recognized by EdTech Magazine as one of the top 50 must read higher education technology blogs for 5 years. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]: Her podcast, Josie and the Podcast, has been featured by the Chronicle of Higher Education and Inside Higher Ed. Her new book, Digital Leadership in Higher Education, Purposeful Social Media in a Connected World, was listed as number 1 on Amazon's new release list for college and university student life. She received her EDD in education from Cal Lutheran and an MED in counseling from Northern Arizona with a BA in psychology and human development and family studies from South Dakota State University. Prior to her independent path, Josie spent nearly 15 years on college campuses in areas of student leadership, student activities, residence life, and student affairs communications and marketing. She previously served as a research associate and instructor at Florida State University Leadership Learning Research Center, where her curriculum builds digital literacy and leadership skills for undergraduates to doctoral students. For more information about Josie's research, speaking, coaching, and consulting, you can find her at www.josiealquist.com. That's josiea hlquist.com. You can also connect with Josie on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, and Facebook. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:07]: Josie, I'm so excited to continue our conversation. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:03:10]: I get, like, a half day with you today. It is so delightful. I need this every month. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:15]: And this is a double episode because Josie just interviewed me on her show, which dropped yesterday. Do you wanna plug that real quick? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:03:24]: So my podcast is Josie and the podcast, and I get to interview amazing guests like Jill and talk about the intersection of marketing, communication, social media, and how to be a human on and offline. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:37]: How to be a human. That is a lesson that we are all continually relearning, I think. It's hard. It's hard. But it's a joy to have you on the show today because you have such an incredible breadth of experience in higher education both as an on campus professional and as a campus partner. As I mentioned in your bio, you recently received the Pillar of the Profession award, which is tremendous. You've authored a book. You've built an entire business that works directly with higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: But it didn't all start there. And so looking forward to hearing more about all of your transitions in career and the choices that you've made along the way to stay connected and anchored into the student affairs profession while serving a gap, that definitely exists in our profession. Let's start at the beginning. How did you find your way onto campus? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:04:27]: Well, the minute I step foot on a campus, whether if it was a tour or where I ended up going to college at South Dakota State, I was hooked. The talents were in and I was one of those freshmen probably on a coffee table yelling, I love college. And, I don't go on coffee tables anymore because that could really hurt my knees. But I just absolutely loved it. The energy, the exploration, the exploration, the involvement, and had really great mentors that were like, well, Chelsea, it's not all the fun stuff of being an orientation leader. There's there's actually a lot of, you know, operations, but I found my way through that too. And also found my way as social media arrived on our campuses that I was really comfortable playing in the sandbox along with a lot of a lot of change. So from my roots in student affairs over 12 years at different campuses, I'm based in Los Angeles. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:05:23]: My last institution was Loyola Marymount and I also have always education is such a core identity of who I am and, values. Early on, my mom or my grandma and grandpa saying you gotta get your education, kid. And I just always knew I wanted to get my doctorate. And so the doctorate was kind of a spark that started a fire. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:05:48]: I didn't ever realize. I can pause there. I can keep going. I don't know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:53]: Well, your dissertation I think we share this in our stories that our dissertations really led to career changes, which is fascinating. Your dissertation was on social media behavior with undergraduate students. What did you learn from that? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:06:06]: I still feel like I am a interpreter of culture and generations and the internet And around 2013 is when I started my program, and then it was a very it was packed a diminished view of students' use of technology and especially for student leaders, I would hear a lot of talk about assuming students were doing the worst things possible online and I wasn't seeing that with my students. It went against, I feel like, who we are as practitioners that we're putting all this work into empowering them and giving them the tools and we know developmentally and you worked in conduct, you get it, you see that process, but we were making a lot of assumptions out of fear and so I wanted to know what were they really doing online, if it was as bad as we thought or not, because this also was the time where it was super black and white. Do not even look at your student stuff, don't let them connect with you. Some places, you still couldn't even have accounts as departments. It was it was very much scare tactics. And, honestly, that was one of the discoveries in my focus groups. Students would talk about their whole lives that they were educated about social media with fear. To catch a predator came up. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:41]: Oh, yeah. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:07:42]: Like, literally. And what was also so fascinating was they learned lessons based upon how the people in their lives older than them were making mistakes and or their peers, so they were just having to learn this stuff on the flight. Like, imagine dropping Josie, who grew up in Wyoming, on the 405 in LA without ever of driving in in a city before. You woulda had to tow my car out of there. I'm sorry. I just didn't have those skills, and sometimes that's what we're doing and or telling me before I get to LA how it you're gonna adapt you're not gonna make it unless you do x y z, and that kinda broke my heart a little bit. Like, again, we give so much and it's not even about, like, positive psychology but just tell them what to do then. What do you want them to do online? Like, they were so desperate that then they would say, well, this is how my RD, I've noticed, uses Facebook. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:08:36]: So maybe that's how an adult does Facebook even though there is no one way. We know that. Right? We get to make a million choices and so what came from that was a set of curriculum. I wanted to be able to share. I'm a I'm a sharer and this could be a framework you could teach your students And that also is what led then to me speaking to a lot of students in a new way because a lot of times they'd come to, like, my keynote or it to, like, get on LinkedIn or start a blog, share my story. No one told me I could share, but in a purposeful way. So I use the social change model as the framework in both the curriculum, but also what I was looking for. If the student leaders that we were putting so much investment in, if they were actually using those skills on social. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:09:37]: And I think the individual skills was definitely shown. Group skills are more harder. It was the time of the ice bucket challenge, so there was that kind of expression. Yeah. But overall, with a couple exceptions, they were they were using these tools in productive ways and I still think that holds true today that we need to give youth more credit than I think we're just assuming other tool. And so I just really got on a soapbox, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]: If it's a topic you're passionate about, this is good. But I'll give a shout out to doctor Jason Foster, Positive Use of Social Media and Their Academic Success. And that was kind of similar to what you were seeing, a time where I was using social media to connect and build relationships with people. This is before it was a dumpster fire all the time, I think. And we were hearing the narrative that social media was so bad. And so we thought we wanted to contribute to the literature in a way that reflected, well, there's obviously some benefits here. Let's talk about them. And we found that students were using social media to be academically successful in group projects, which was a really interesting twist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:48]: And, you know, we ended up getting cited in the handbook of qualitative research, I think, or social media research, something like that. And I was like, wow. I didn't think this was that profound, but it's nice to Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:10:58]: This is blowing my mind because I'm fairly positive I cited that paper. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:03]: And now That's really funny. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:11:04]: Source because I'm like, wait. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:11:08]: That's amazing. And but I think the one lesson looking back because it was so extreme that there was this negativity. I stayed in that positive, purposeful place because we know now 10 years later, there are so many ethical issues and concerns and things that need to change and are problematic that things are different. 10 years cycle. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:31]: So let's talk about those transitions then because Yeah. In in our theme of transitions, we've seen all sorts of things from our guests in different personal transitions. But one of the transitions I appreciate from your perspective is this longitudinal arc of how students are using social media, what the concerns are from different generations of students with social media use, and the trends that you're seeing for how student affairs professionals can actually connect with students because I know they don't want us on TikTok. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:12:02]: They do if you meet the culture and the content for that platform. If you show up like you would in an email or on LinkedIn, give them the ick. Like, let that you know, it'd be cringe and I think this is where the concept of time right now kind of blows my mind. I feel like I'm still in my thirties, that I am full blown ahead in my forties. Right? And the longer we're in these positions and we see lots of students come and go, but we can sometimes forget how much has changed in 10 years. So the students in my study, and a lot of them I'm still connected with and some of them are higher ed pros now, they are now full into millennials and we still are thinking about those students and sometimes communicating like those are still our students and meeting them on platforms that we were for example, Facebook groups were big back then. We still have people trying to keep Facebook groups alive for 1st year students, like class of whatever. I'm like, honey, they're on Discord. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:13:03]: They've made a subreddit of you already. The pacing is so much different of these other platforms and so that needs, our side needs to change. They've also grown up even further back than the students in my studies. So as early as when they were born, potentially, the second they came out, they had a paper trail, Good or bad? And we are also seeing more students come or preteens, teens, young adults having more frustrations that then they didn't get say in what their digital identity was early on and or we are also seeing them double down and become influencers on different platforms whether that's a micro influencer just talking about makeup or running or a million other things And so, we might be inviting new students to our campuses. They have influence that we didn't in college in addition to access, so lots of communications. I do think that education and curriculum has improved but honestly the majority of it is their own self. Education and peer education tends to be always some of the strongest factors. I think the other thing that's also who grew up with social media early in their careers and so now they are their own kind of digital natives in executive roles. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:14:35]: I had previous vice presidents that wouldn't touch any tools, let alone know what they are or be willing to access them. So I think 2 things are happening at once, both what our students are doing and what it's impacting our profession and future leaders use or even misuse. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:52]: We are all over the place as a profession in terms of our level of comfort with having a digital identity or digital footprint, as well as our level of capacity or skill base for how that's going for folks. You know, some of us are all in on all platforms. Some of us are partway in on some platforms and all in on others. And some of us are like, you just said Discord. What is that? So there's a level of all of these things. Right? Like, I'm on Discord. I'm on Slack. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:21]: I'm in the YouTube space. TikTok was banned in the country I was last in, so couldn't be on there. But Douyin was allowed, which is, like, the counterpart in the country. But there's also social media that is huge in other parts of the world that a lot of Americans have never heard of or use. Like, WeChat is, like, a tool of life Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:15:39]: Oh, yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:40]: In a lot of Asia. Yes. And and you can't function without a WeChat account. It's where all the information is. So given all of this major big landscape, how would you recommend that student affairs professionals who want to gain digital skills and don't necessarily feel like they know how to do that go about the process. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:15:59]: I think just like how our students are sorting it out and how we seek out mentors and sponsors is to find those yourself. And the nice thing is you can just kind of lurk and scroll on your own, but I do highly encourage people to actually reach out, right? Like if someone aspires to be like you, I aspire to be like you, Joe. But I have a podcast or again, like, working internationally, like, reach out. Use the access not just for the likes and comment. That is my number one advice when students are doing their doctorate or masters. You have a secret sauce that somehow gets taken away after you graduate is that you just say you're a student, people will take your calls more often for guidance and mentorship and so I called up a lot of the people I was citing or just people that were talking a lot about social media and tech to ask some questions and now they're some of my closest colleagues and even friends. And so I guess my advice is you have to take it offline. You really do have to take the relationship piece. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:17:01]: The tools can be a spark, but they are not the source to keep it sustainable. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:07]: You wrote a book recently that was listed as number 1 for new college releases, which is very exciting, on Amazon, Digital Leadership and Higher Education, Purposeful Social Media in a Connected World. Now I don't want you to have to rehash your whole book, but I'm wondering if you have nuggets for professionals who are aspiring to increase their professional digital presence, both for their campuses and for the field. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:17:31]: Write the book. If you wanna write the book, make sure it's in the right place. The reason why you think you want to write a book, my number one piece of advice is write it with someone else. Or it might be great, maybe I was the queen of committee work. I loved it. I was good at it but also then I was, like, I just wanna close myself in my office and be alone. A book project where you're already with working with so many people, it might be a glorious thing for you to get to do something on your own. I would also say just like you need to rearrange the furniture of your life when you do your doctorate, a book will be the same that you will need to and or it's just not gonna get done. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:18:09]: And I would say what I have learned is make it a living thing. What I don't like about books is then they are printed and you can't change it like you can on the Internet. Mhmm. And my book is already very outdated. And I have to think about how do I keep contributing to that topic or leave it entirely and or what is the future versions of it, whether if it's me that's contributing or other people. And I think maybe that's just a lifelong learner in me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:38]: So now let's jump back because you are one of the most, I think, beautifully present people in the campus partner space. We know you well. We see you often. We see you engage with professionals both on and off campus. But that transition was, I think, a scarier leap when you made it than I think it's a little more common now. Tell us about making the determination to discontinue campus based work and, as you put it, accidentally build a business. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:19:08]: Yes. I think I blogged about this and shared a bit on my podcast, but I think it's good to share the full breadth of the story. I mean, not too long. I swear. I won't be too long winded because it was difficult not just in the doing but the unweaving and rebuilding of my identity. And so it started with applying for a position that I did not receive that was gutting and required me to reconsider and it was an internal position. And I looked around and I there was nowhere else on campus that I could see myself which also scared the heck out of me because I was 6 months into a doc program. I was like, well, is this place even for me? And my husband and I were out for a run. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:19:51]: I all of a sudden just start crying uncontrollably. He's like, did you fall? And he knew I was kind of having a hard time. And he's like, we're okay. Like, what if you just did school? And I'm like, who you. I've been working since I was 12. Work is my identity. I grew up in a low income and middle class family in Wyoming. My grandparents are all ranchers. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:20:13]: Like, work is what we do. It was never even a consideration of not doing. I sat on it for a couple of months and it started to grow on to me. So, honestly, it even started with the idea and so that might resonate with some listeners of what it means to just do school full time and not be contributing to your family or needing to take out other resources, that that internal struggle is real and validated. But then what I didn't anticipate was leaving my job then and the excitement and the going away parties that then went away in 2 months and I completely was in a free fall. My mental health, you know, you can that I discovered panic attacks and anxiety? And I've always, I think, had anxiety, but it cracked open, again, just doing school. And I had busied myself so much. Again, queen of committees. Put me in everything. Do everything. Output. So I blogged every day for 50 days and just poured myself into Twitter now x, where I found a community where student affairs used to be very active Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:21:30]: Of colleagues, friends, and just continue to go there. That was, like, my water cooler. And by the time I graduated, I was already starting to get invited to do speaking because I was blogging my coursework and you could still do this. Set up a substack and share what you wrote about on Black board, like or it literally could be, this is a quote from my paper that you did because that's how I just started to share the work I was doing. I was still terrified that what I was doing wasn't real or worthy. So I picked up, like, 4 adjunct positions at once and doing some speaking on the side. But I always had this, I need a plan b. So I'm still looking at jobs. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:22:15]: I'm, like, doing the speaker circuit thing. And it wasn't until, honestly, a couple years before the pandemic that I finally said, Josie, you need to make a commitment. Is this a business? Are you in or you're out? Because mentally, it's also tormenting. And so then I did. I've I I mean, I literally took out, like, a license that, you know, like I'm incorporated now and, brought on people to help me. And I just think to acknowledge and not to scare people of, like, you make this transition, there might be mental health impacts, like, things that were kind of already residing that I would say have resources ready for you at the ready and to bet on yourself too. I didn't bet on myself early enough because honestly, I think people listening in higher ed will get this. We're a perfectionist. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:23:07]: We don't want to fail. And I was scared if I called it a business and it didn't make it, then I was gonna be a failure. And that held me back though for what could've and is coming to be. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:19]: You've said a couple of things that I I think are really important to touch back to. And the first is that I think in student affairs, especially, there's a lot of identity wrapped up in the profession, in a job title, in a job function. I think that's partly because the outside world doesn't grasp the profession. And a lot of times, our own families and partners don't grasp the profession, and so we kind of hang on to the identity maybe a little bit tighter than other professions may. And so letting go of that is not just transitioning a career. It's figuring out where that piece of you goes or what happens to it, after you transition. That's a big one. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:23:59]: Well, and some of that is not knowing what box to check. NASCLA only just recently added a consultant membership or, you know, or I wouldn't be able to go to certain things. I had to have a campus affiliation and there was a sense of it wasn't embarrassment but I was very fearful people were gonna see me as an outsider, that I was gonna be cold calling them and so, I also I've always been centered in community and relationships which, so I've been doing sales but in a heart centered way because I need to work. I need to make it. I'm going to make this work. Right? But I had to do a lot of money stuff on weaving some of that money mindset things in order to build a business, that wasn't that was going to be productive. In higher ed very much. There's an entrepreneurship element to your transition and higher ed very much. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:59]: There's an entrepreneurship element to your transition story. I have a friend who researches entrepreneurship. They're an assistant professor in the College of Business, and that's kind of their their area of research. And they have found through their research that the most successful entrepreneurs are the ones who tilt in a 100%, the ones who actually take away their safety net, which is the most terrifying thing that you can do. But it sounds like that's what you did. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:25:23]: Yeah. You should have sent me that article. Yeah. And I think just even not saying I'm my only identity is entrepreneur, but not resisting that. And I don't have an MBA. I swear I don't know what I'm doing half the time on business side, but I'm seeking out different types of mentors. And I'm also finding others, and you're one of them now, in a different type of way that we need our own resources as campus partners in community, in how we can transform the industry too because it needs to be done from the outside. And it's not outside in a negative way. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:25:59]: It's actually more it's gonna be more impact full in the end. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:03]: Let's talk about that transition to being a CEO, so your your own boss and your own employee, but also a person who's driving their own schedule, driving when you work and when you don't, setting your own limits, deciding when enough is enough for a day, a week or a month, that feels really overwhelming to me, just looking at the lack of limit and needing to self impose as a person who also drives with a lot of purpose. How did you figure that out? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:26:30]: Oh, trial and error and lots of therapy and hiring a coach. Mhmm. So I brought on a business coach and you'll just laugh at me what she caught on quickly that I was a workaholic that especially when the business wasn't doing well, to me, you just work more. It's almost like your punishment then. You have to work every single day. And one of her first homework assignments was, she's like, I want you to take every Sunday off. And I looked at her. We negotiated it to one Sunday off a month. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:27:00]: That's what I negotiated it down. I'm embarrassed. Like, I put up such a front that I couldn't even imagine what it would be to not work one day a week or what a month, let alone a whole weekend. And by the time we finished our work together, my husband and I also purchased an RV and I took off 6 weeks. So you can't sometimes we don't see how we are in our own ways. We need people and it doesn't mean you have to pay people to tell you that, but I needed that mirror because at the same time, I was completely this was toward the end of the book and, you know, we're in a pandemic. I was completely crumbling, like, the foundation was so weak and I just kept jumping on the trampoline, like, no, it's not. So I have known I've really I have to prioritize it. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:27:55]: I will edit this because it is a professional podcast. But I may be my own boss, but she can be a real bee sometimes. I have very high expectations of myself. So I need other people to help me make sure I'm staying grounded. And I've also realized that I don't like to work alone and while I'm sacrificing financially, in November, I brought on my very first full time employee which was both terrifying and exciting for someone else to be relying on you. But I'm also so strategically and to wanna grow. And but for some people listening, they might or you've already built your own person shop and that's that can be great too. We all we don't all need to turn into these big agencies or or whatever. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:28:51]: I think that's the other piece that I found. You get to define not only your time, but how you are going to structure your your business. It's so funny when you think about a dissertation is such a recipe card. Sure, you can mess it up, but, like, it is so structured. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:08]: Chapters 1 through 5, maybe 6. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:29:11]: Yeah. And then this is what you write, this is what you say, you've got this feedback. Being an entrepreneur is not a whole bunch of it. And I am a recovering control girly. And sometimes you have to let it go and sometimes you have to be like, what do I want? I could do anything today. Well, not always, but from now, I work at WeWork sometimes or I need to get out of the house more. So I also joined a gym that is right next to WeWork. Giving yourself permission to really pay attention how you work best and how Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:42]: you're gonna best make that impact. Can you talk a little bit about how your views on the profession changed from being a campus based professional to being a campus partner? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:29:51]: Oh, wow. How they have changed. Well, it is nice to see that there is more of a acknowledgment of how the work by partners, by consultants, whatever they're called, are necessary and we're not it's not just about the money or adversarial. That's been just good for my own mental health and where I fit into things. I see much more macro things happening. I mean, we were just talking, before we started recording about we're losing really great people. We that our students need those people. The the mental health weight of this work, it makes me want to do something bigger than my myself or what my business provides. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:30:35]: And so that's why a lot of my work is just trying to put good minds together, whether if that's on a panel, in a Slack channel because I can't do it all, but I just wanna connect all the people to help because it still blows my mind how many people like, they say student affairs is a small world, but it's not. Even people I'm like, wait. You don't know each other? Like, how in the world does this not happen? And that that honestly brings me more joy sometimes than, like, being asked to speak somewhere is that then I get to I mean, it's the same thing with our students, right? We get to go see what they do with the rest of their lives. I would also say it's only to a certain extent, but so many of the challenges you're facing, a million others are on their institutions to like I'm not saying normalize it, but for example, social media, I can anticipate what I'm gonna be finding in consulting or coaching and exec. We we can be so hard on ourselves. We're not far enough along. Our engagement isn't going well. Just hear it from me. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:31:29]: Like, it's all a bit of a struggle. And that could kind of be nice to hear. Like, oh, it's not just me. I feel a little and that's not just with social. It could be a variety of different topic. Oh my gosh. And honestly, what I am finding is and what I'm bummed so bummed about, even in grad school and maybe programs are doing better now. I feel like I was hid from what our admissions and enrollment people really were doing and are up against Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:31:56]: And I think we're having because especially we're seeing student affairs and enrollment pair up but I I don't know if it was the institutions I was at or where I got my grad program but, like, I feel like it was, like, we don't talk about that. That's not your place. You just focus here. And I think that's such a disservice because even when I talk to marketers or enrollment people, I'm like, y'all are y'all are doing the work of student success, right? And even they're not hearing that. Mhmm. So somewhere in our echo chambers, that is being perpetuated to continue and I think the institutions that are doing the best, sure, we've got department names and divisions are we need a collective effort. We obviously all need to do what our work or tasks are meant to do, but it's not doing a service to, like, keep people not understanding how they could make an impact on enrollment. I really appreciate you Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:50]: mentioning that because I think that aligns with a lot of my experiences as well. Even, even sitting in an ADP or a CSAO seat, you know, the enrollment side can have a level of mystique to it. And it's interesting having spent a career in higher education, and I don't think I could advise, a high school student the best way to craft their application for admissions at this point because it is, a, still a little mystical, but, b, because it's different everywhere. And that's that's interesting if you really break it down on how siloed our profession can be within itself sometimes. But when we can connect those things, the power in that is really extraordinary. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:33:34]: Right. Even within in within our campus walls, in different divisions, we we're having similar challenges of retaining a certain type of staff or again, I just I think we're missing out so many ways of going back to the beginning of humanizing the work that we do and workplace challenges in addition to students just want to learn. And no matter what the title of the department is, sometimes that bureaucracy gets in the way. And I once I love social media because it kind of doesn't care. Like, a student's gonna find what they wanna find wherever they're gonna find it no matter what the title is. And if they can't find it on your website because they probably aren't, they're gonna ask on Reddit, and it may or may not be But I would say I am excited. I am energized and I just wanna say one more thing that I haven't said that I especially say to a lot of people that come to me. They're like, I wanna start my own business. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:34:38]: I wanna be a consultant. From the beginning, I had a partner in this with me, And we have gone ebbs and flows of sometimes it's more me, sometimes it's more him in order to do this work. That is a privileged place to be in that I fully acknowledge both financially, emotionally, that I wish people could just do the thing they wanna do immediately. But there were times if I didn't have a partner, I would also have needed another job or 2 to make ends meet. And I think people need to hear it both in an ethical way, but also there are ways that you could start doing speaking consulting immediately. There's no reason that you need to do it fully as a full time thing. That would also be great for you to get experience and to see if that's something that you'd really wanna do because it's not easy either. There's some some gritty parts of it that may not be a good fit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:29]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:35]: Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world to let you know about some amazing things that are happening in the profession. 1st and foremost, there are a few brand new NASPA books that are in the NASPA bookstore. The first, Student Affairs Professional Preparation, A Scholar Practitioner Guide to Contemporary Topics by Jackie Clark, Jeanette Smith and Associates. This book offers unique insights into critical issues facing higher education and student affairs. It was written by a diverse team of practitioners and faculty. This comprehensive volume serves as both a primer on contemporary topics and a tool for practitioners and students. Some of the chapters in the book address HISA matters that have been central to professional preparation for decades. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:23]: Others concern aspects that are emerging and evolving in unprecedented ways. Each chapter is written by a team consisting of at least 1 practitioner and at least 1 faculty member. This intentional partnership allows for a rich conversation that addresses both professionals in practice and students and faculty in preparation programs. The content can be directly used in practice or to generate critical lively conversations in the classroom. The authors have also included excellent resources for further reading and classroom activity. The second book, Crucial Collaborations, A Practical Framework to Ensure Access, Equity, and Inclusion for students with disabilities. This was written by Neil Lipsitz, Michael Berger, and Eileen Connellberger. Ensuring access and sense of belonging for students with disabilities in higher unique organizational structure, culture, faculty, staff, and students. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:25]: This book presents a cross functional framework that administrators, faculty, access service providers, parents and guardians, and students themselves that can be used in the review and responsibilities of each stakeholder who contributes to positive post secondary experiences for students with disabilities. The groundbreaking framework has many applications, including facilitating student inclusion and socialization, empowering stakeholders through shared knowledge, and assessing the efficacy and effectiveness of institutional programs for students with disabilities. Throughout the book, the authors discuss their personal and professional experiences to animate and operationalize the framework. One other thing that I wanted to share with all of you today is a brand new book in the NASPA book store. It's a book in the NASPA book store called The Business of Student Affairs Fundamental Skills for Student Affairs Professionals written by Larry Mineta and Ellen Jay Consulting. This book is a primer on the fundamental business related aspects of student affairs that all practitioners need to know. Drawing on his 46 year career in higher education, Larry Mineta, the author, presents critical skill sets to better equip student affairs practitioner educators to analyze circumstances, alter environments, invest in structures and programs, and lead campus progress. Topics include financing and budgeting, organizational design, human resources, facilities management, technology, auxiliary operations, legal issues and risk management, crisis management, strategic planning and communications. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:58]: The key takeaways in each chapter provide further guidance to achieve success in the field. For anyone going into student affairs or new to student affairs, you may find that many of the topics in this book may not have been covered in your graduate preparation program or maybe something that you just need more insight into. And this book definitely provides you with that insight. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA bookstore today and check it out for yourself. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:20]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:50]: Chris, thank you so much for keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. We know we just came out of annual conference, but there is still a lot more opportunities for engagement. So I appreciate you letting us know what those are. And, Josie, we have reached our lightning round. I've got 7 questions for you, 90 seconds. Ready? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:10]: Okay. Okay. I'm scared. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:12]: Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:17]: Well, I am a conference keynote speaker. I have to pick Beyonce's new tunes. Any of the 3 that have come out recently, I think at that point, I wanted to be a swim coach. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:37]: I was a swimmer. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:43]: Ed Cabellan. He brought me under his wing early, early days meeting on Twitter, and he sponsored to help me get to my very first ACPA conference to present Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:54]: with him. Number 4, your essential student affairs read. The Chronicle. Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:03]: Why did Tiger King immediately come to mind? It was not the best. It was just the first thing I thought of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:08]: Oh my gosh. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:09]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:13]: Well, it is mine, Josie and the podcast, because of editing and creating. But, my Spotify rap tells me Armchair Expert is, all their different shows are super fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:27]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:31]: Oh my gosh. I think I'm especially maybe it's from the Barbie, Taylor Swift, Beyonce movement. It's a summer for women and girls, and I am also just, like, on fire about that. So I just wanna give a shout to all the women and girlies listening and, I mean, all gender unconforming identities that we need space and community and and being lifted up. And so I'm doing a lot of different groups and meetups to do things like that, but we're taking over, Jocey. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:00]: I'm so grateful to you for this 2 part episode. Again, part 1 dropped on Josie's podcast, Josie and the podcast. This is part 2 of the conversation. So if you'd like to go back and listen to part 1, go ahead and find her show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you download your podcasts. But, Josie, if folks would like to engage you as a consultant or just have a chat with you, how can they reach you? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:43:21]: Well, you can find me at josiealquist.com, blogging, podcasting, all of the things. I am on Instagram, LinkedIn threads, x is swirling as it does. And I actually do have a TikTok, but currently it's all reactions to my husband's content, which is epic rap battles of history. So if you want that type of entertainment, you can go there. And as Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:44]: you search for Josie, so that's Alquist with an a h l q right in there. Josie, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:43:53]: Thanks for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:57]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Cratney. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:31]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.  

Navigating Unprecedented Challenges The COVID-19 pandemic introduced a myriad set of challenges, upending the traditional norms and necessitating an urgent pivot towards empathetic leadership. Higher education, a particularly affected sector, had to swiftly evolve, fostering an environment where staff felt supported amidst the ensuing chaos. Embodying Transparency and Support Amy Hecht from FSU and Matt Imboden of Wake Forest University underline the importance of transparent communication and authentic actions from leaders. Through initiatives like FSU's Culture and People program, leadership at these institutions exemplified the care and long-term investment in their staff's career trajectories. Similarly, David Chao from the University of Pittsburgh highlighted a newfound focus on self-care, crucial for maintaining a balanced support system for students. Spaces for Grief and Adaptation Andy Wiegert at Washington University and Rachael Amaro of Cal State Fullerton share the vital role that organized grief spaces and an open line for support can play in sustaining staff well-being in times of loss. Melinda Stoops from Boston College emphasizes how institutional efforts to secure staff job assurance during such periods is a testament to caring leadership. Professional Development and Well-being Investment in professional growth and well-being, as recounted by Jackie Yoon from Harvard, ensures that employees feel valued and are more likely to contribute positively. The approach by Shatera Davis's leadership at Northeastern in Seattle during the pandemic harmonizes with this by preserving jobs and maintaining a connected community despite quarantine. Leading by Example The narrative of Leanna Fenneberg from Duquesne University describes leading staff reductions with care, prioritizing a loving environment even during departures. Moreover, Darlene Robinson of Seton Hall University speaks to the strategic support provided by listening leaders who aid employees during career transitions.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Welcome to our second of 3 bonus episodes from the annual conference. Chris and I were able to move about the conference and talk to a couple dozen of you about your thoughts on the various foci areas. Today's question will focus on the 2nd conference focus area, which was Care in Chaos. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:42]: And the question we asked you was can you share an example of a time or a hope when a supervisor or organization provided effective care and support to employees during times of significant change or uncertainty in their careers. A lot of you had some really wonderful examples of how your organization Acquanetta Pinkard [00:01:07]: I'm Acquanetta Pinkard. I am from Montgomery, Alabama. I work for Alabama State University and I am a trio professional for 23 years. I believe that my supervisor as well as my campus have been very conscious of caring for the employees, giving us what we have need of whether that's time off, whether that's just opportunities to take a minute break, areas on campus where we could take minute breaks, and also providing just that continuum of care where we feel the liberty to be able to talk. So I think that that's what I've experienced. Taylor Cain [00:01:45]: I'm Taylor Cain. I work at the University of Georgia and serve as the director of engagement leadership and service there. Well, I mean, the one that comes most comes to mind first, most recently we had, unfortunately, 2 deaths on our campus. 1 of a former student and one of a current student. And while all of us were trying to spring into action to figure out how to care for students, in the midst of that, I was really impressed by the institution trying to find also ways to support those who were caring for those students. Our vice president for student affairs, who is newer to her role but not to our institution, made really intentional efforts to reach out to folks via email or text or when she saw them to take the time to show appreciation and care for the work that they were doing, recognizing the importance of it, but also encouraging folks to take care of themselves. And I think little acts like that go much further than some people may realize. And I think it meant the world to the staff who were doing the work. In times of crisis or difficult issues on campus, it's always really nice, I think, to have that recognition and affirmation of you're doing a great job and I'm right here beside you. But don't forget to take care of yourself too. Adrienne White [00:03:01]: I'm doctor Adrienne White. I'm the director of student success coaching at George Mason University, and I use sheher pronouns. I think my supervisor during COVID was remarkable in terms of how she supported us during certain times. And personally, during COVID, my mother was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. And so on top of dealing with personal things, I'm now having to also grapple with how am I supporting my team at the same time. But then, also, how am I supporting myself during all of this and putting well-being at the forefront of our work. And I was extremely blessed to have a supervisor that allowed me the autonomy to create well-being opportunities for my team, but also well-being opportunities that worked for me as well because I was my mother's primary caretaker. And so, I adjusted my schedule. Adrienne White [00:03:53]: I went on 4:10 hour workday schedule because I needed to go to all a lot of doctor's appointments and be there with her during her treatment, and that was a significant moment in my life, in my career. And having the support of my supervisor and knowing that my supervisor has my back, right, knowing that my supervisor supports the decisions I need to make to take care of myself and to my team, you just can't put a number on that. It's incredibly important and has completely transformed my thought process and my leadership as well. Susan Hua [00:04:29]: Hi. My name is Susan Hua. I use sheher pronouns, and I'm the director of diversity, equity, inclusion at the Community College of Aurora, which is an MSI HSI just outside of Denver, Colorado. A hope that I have for supervisors or organizations to provide effective care and support to employees is to really just be intentional about how they are mentoring and having conversations with their employees during times of uncertainty during their careers. I think it's helpful to understand and really holistically look at your employees instead of just seeing them as one role or one fraction of your department, and to really understand that they have lives outside of the field as well, and to understand how to support their whole selves in the work journey that they have. Aileen Hentz [00:05:09]: My name is Aileen Hentz. I'm at the University of Maryland as the program director of academic and student services. I think constant communication was very important during times, especially when we're looking at budget cuts, furloughs, when we're looking at possible changing in policy that could have an impact on our office or our jobs. Just not being left in the dark was incredibly important, I think. So that kinda constant communication, opening things up. I loved when my supervisor was like, you know, I'm not supposed to tell you all this, but I'm gonna tell you anyway because I feel like you need to know. And that was really helpful for me when we were facing some of those uncertainties. Stephen Rice [00:05:49]: Stephen Rice, director of the Office of Community Expectations at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, California. I've been very fortunate to have a lot of supervisors who really take the time to get to know me and provide me with the resources and support. And so when tough times happen, they're able to really provide me with that information that I need. My current supervisor, Darren, always takes the time out to really talk to me about different cases and different situations. When things go awry, cause I work in student conduct, really provides that support that I need for those of things. And as an effect of that, I'm able to do that for the team that I supervise of 6 individuals to really help them in their growth through or different times and provide them support. And it goes with 1 on 1 conversations, getting to know who they are, what they're passionate about, understanding their strengths, tapping into those strengths, seeing things that they may not see about themselves, and really getting them to to do those different things and challenging support them in the way so they are very effective, in what they do. And as a result, they have better tools when they're looking for the next step that they're able to move forward with it. Amy Adam [00:06:47]: Hi. This is Amy Adam, and I am from the University of Missouri in Columbia. I have been a student services support manager for 20 years serving graduate students. I've been so, so lucky in my 20 years with supervisors and organizations. I work in the School of Information Science and Learning Technologies. So we have mostly distant students, but all of the faculty and staff are located in the same building. Really, my first supervisor, doctor John Wedman, was one of a kind. He passed away about 9 years ago, but he really was that mentor to get me into student services and really just encouraged me to advocate for myself, advocate for my students, and to build the relationship with faculty, but to remember not to let them take advantage of me and the willingness that I have to do work. So, really, just making sure that I keep students first and foremost in my goal for my job has been the biggest thing. And really even through COVID, my current department chair has been amazing with flex time and just making sure that we take time for ourselves. You can't just sit at your desk all day. You've gotta get out, gotta get water, go take a break, go play with your dog. So I just feel very lucky that I've had that type of relationships with my supervisors. Stephanie Cochrane [00:08:14]: Hi. I'm Stephanie Cochrane. I'm the director of student services at Northeastern University in Toronto. I'm here for NASPA for just the Sunday pre conference around graduate students. That's a great question. I think COVID created a huge shift in our entire world and our way of thinking about student support, and our dean at the Toronto campus has been really effectively caring for our our employees as well as our students, thinking about hiring the correct resources, asking for input from the people who are working there and dealing with the students on a daily basis to see what our students need and keeping that student centered mindset at all times. Amy Hecht [00:08:52]: Hi. My name is Amy Hecht. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Florida State University. I've been there 7 years now. At Florida State, we've launched a new position and program called Culture and People, and it's really about helping people feel at home in Tallahassee where FSU is located, connecting to other people outside their division, celebrating people, and rewarding them, and also developing them, coaching them, and that's been very helpful for people to feel supported and valued, but also that somebody cares about their long term career trajectory. Shatera Davis [00:09:32]: Hi. My name is Shaterra Davis. I use sheher pronouns. I'm the director of student affairs at Northeastern in Seattle. I think the most recent time and then the most impactful time was during the pandemic when I worked in housing before and everyone thought that they wouldn't have a job because our students were moving out. And so our leadership did a really great job of saying this is where we're at. I'm being transparent on what the leadership conversations were and then ultimately giving us opportunities to do other work besides being, like, resident directors in order to keep our jobs and keep our housing during that time. And then doing the most to make sure that we all felt community because while we were having to quarantine, we felt that we were all by ourselves. None of us have roommates, and so being intentionally using the spaces and the meetings we had to, like, build communities, check-in, and still just being transparent on where we're at and, like, how we're supporting students, but also how we're supporting ourselves during that time. Andy Wiegert [00:10:25]: I am Andy Wiegert, Director of Graduate Student Affairs, Arts and Sciences, Washington University in Saint Louis. Gosh. Yeah. I mean, we've kind of seen a lot in our time. Obviously, having gone through COVID is the one that stands out the most, but we've also recently experienced things like, you know, a tragic death of a student. And that's really difficult because you have administrators who are both trying to support students, but at the same time are also experiencing their own grief and trauma. And so it really has been neat to see some of our leaders recognize that, acknowledge that, and create spaces not just for our students to grieve, but also for our staff, our faculty, and support folks. Scott Peska [00:11:10]: Hi. Scott Peska, Waubonsee Community College, assistant provost of student services. I would say that this was a few years back, quite a few years back when I worked in res life, but I recall when 911 took place right there was some real challenge with direction during that time and really giving staff the space to not only help their students go through and kind of process, but to give us time to process individually was really important. And to really think about you're gonna deal with a lot of crisis management in higher education. And so are you prepared for this? You need to get yourself in a space to do that. And so being able to give us time to actually give us strategies, talk to people that were crisis managers and kinda looking at preparing that, that was helpful. Dilna Cama [00:11:53]: Dilna Cama. I am a director within student life at the Ohio State University, and I am part of the off campus and commuter knowledge community. My most recent supervisor, he did our organization was down to 2 of us, and we were essentially scratching everything and building a start up. And his support and the way he really reminded me we can do anything, we can't do everything. And that's something I remind myself each and every day. And so really keep making sure that I'm focused on what is most important has really allowed me to remain positive. And definitely the way in which he provided support, I think, was very notable. Sabina Kapoor [00:12:42]: My name is Sabina Kapoor, and I'm currently a a full time doctoral student with Capella University. I spent over 20 years in higher education as a staff within student affairs, student success, and academic affairs. So as I progressed in my career, I've focused more on staff so that they can better serve students. And I wanna go in deep with that, so that's why I'm pursuing the doctorate in IO Psychology because I wanna look at the relationship between the organization and the employee. What comes to mind is a few, the pandemic. During that time, a lot of universities were downsizing, and my university that I was at was no exception. And so it was really interesting because it was unprecedented in how many people were part of a workforce reduction. And so how the university supported people at that time, it was interesting. Sabina Kapoor [00:13:31]: I think the university really didn't know how to. And then you had the people that stayed that weren't, let go. And so I felt like they had survivor's remorse, and so it's real interesting. And so I think now is something hopefully, that won't happen again to that extent, not just my previous university, but other universities and colleges as well. But if it did, I think institutions know now how to handle that better and have that human touch. Carlie Weaver [00:14:01]: Hello. I am Carlie Weaver with Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I'm a programs coordinator for the student activities in Union office. I'm not really sure how to answer that because I do feel like I don't really find myself being uncertain in my career because my supervisor, Kristen Merchant, hurt you, and Kristen Lloyd are very, very supportive in helping me to find my footing in my own voice and my role. Roxanne Wright Watson [00:14:31]: Hi. My name is Roxanne Wright Watson. I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Pennsylvania, and I'm happy to be here. I think my direct supervisor, my dean, is supportive of what we do in the classroom, how we help our students. And in particular, a situation that I can recall is during COVID. During COVID, I think they were supportive to us in terms of having to just switch from face to face classes to online classes. The support was there. The support in getting things to instructors, supervisors did and how they helped us, the supervisors did and how they helped us as faculty. Yes. Carla Ortega Santori [00:15:27]: My name is Carla Ortega Santori. I work at Rice University. I am the strategic initiatives manager at the Door Institute For New Leaders at Rice University, and my job is really about helping students elevate their leadership capacity and to also elevate the capacity of all campuses to do really great leader developments in education. I think everyone went through significant changes in 2020. Obviously, our director and leader was really great about embracing that level of uncertainty and creating a safe space for everyone to also attend to their needs, be they professional or personal. Another big, I think, time of uncertainty or significant change was when we changed directors, and I think both the outgoing and incoming directors were really great at defining our roles and clarifying expectations really clearly, so that was really helpful. Laying out a vision and also being okay with if we needed to change that vision or significantly alter it to accommodate our current needs was also really helpful. Rachael Amaro [00:16:41]: I'm Rachael Amaro. I'm the admissions and academic advisor for the Department of Educational Leadership within the College of Education at Cal State Fullerton. I think a good example of that is the faculty who's the director of our EDD program. We had a really rough patch in our department, you know, between the faculty. The faculty were having issues with each other, which of course, the students pick up on, everybody picks up on. It makes the whole environment a little challenging, but my EDG director was always very level headed and very understanding and always open to saying, hey, if there's something going on, like, please let me know, like, don't, you know, don't keep things. It's important that I know what's happening so that we can all figure out what is going on and how everybody's feeling, at least in the office side, because the fact are gonna be themselves. They were having some issues with each other. Rachael Amaro [00:17:29]: The staff, obviously, we were okay with each other, but obviously it all affects everything, so I really appreciated her always being so confident and always so caring and open, and always checking in and making sure we were doing okay when we had some rough times with our own leadership within our department, she was always the one person that we knew we could count on. And, you know, she's the one person that asks how you're doing, Jess, how your parents are doing. It's just those simple acts make a big difference. Christine Wilson [00:17:59]: I'm Christine Wilson. I am in student affairs at UCLA. I have two roles. 1 is as the executive director for academic partnerships and the other is the program director for our director for our masters in student affairs program. I saw the leadership of our student affairs organization exhibit tremendous humility and vulnerability directly after the pandemic when there had been some things that were not seen that impacted fairly large number of staff, and they were unseen largely because of the pandemic. It was much harder to get a pulse on what was happening, and what was happening did impact a lot of people. And in order to heal that, our leadership really had to show tremendous humility and vulnerability. And the fact that they did that allowed the healing to begin to happen. And a year later, the organization was healthier, even maybe a little better for what they've learned. Olivia Ruggieri [00:18:53]: Hi there. My name is Olivia Ruggieri. I'm the associate director of administration operations for Northeastern University Seattle campus. I grew up in Pennsylvania, went to college in Florida, and came out here in 2013, but I've been working for the university since since 2018. I would say that right now, there's a big shift towards, not centralization, but standardization of policies across our network of campuses. And so while for folks, at my level, like the ops leads on our campuses, we already do a lot of coordination between each other. We know each other well. But for the folks on our teams, like our operation specialists, our event specialists, they had not yet built their network with each other. Olivia Ruggieri [00:19:34]: And so, coming out of our Vancouver campus, someone named Kayla organized a, mentoring, like, work group for all of those folks, which has been really amazing. So now, folks who are new to the org are mentored by folks who have been here a little bit longer. Those folks are mentored by people that whose roles they might be interested in the future, and I've found that this has helped some of that standardization that's coming across all of our campuses, and we're gonna be well equipped for the future. Christle Foster [00:20:05]: Hi. My name is Christle Foster and I'm from Chesapeake College located on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in Y Mills. I'm gonna point to the pandemic since it's so recent and I will say that our leadership at Chesapeake was very responsive and one of the things that they definitely emphasized was care. Self care as well as caring for our students and I've seen that change even when we returned to the college. With the CARES funds that we have, a lot of it was allocated to students who are going through mental health challenges as well as financial challenges, food insecurity, housing insecurity, and there was a lot of response in which those funds were put to, trying to retain those students and also help those students over those challenges. Nathalie Waite Brown [00:20:46]: My name is Nathalie Waite Brown. I am the assistant dean of students and director for graduate student life at Stevens Institute of Technology located in Hoboken, New Jersey. From a personal perspective, the institution that I worked at when I joined a few years following, we had a new president that came to the institution, and it was during a time where there was a lot of turmoil. And I believe that the leadership that remained really was committed to retaining staff and faculty in a way that was intentional and purposeful, not just for our students, but also for the climate of the employees and welcoming and supporting the new president. And that's something that's been impactful in my career. That was 11 years ago, and it it's still something that resonates with me. Dae'lyn Do [00:21:28]: My name's Dae'lyn Do. I use sheher pronouns, and I am the associate director for the Women in Science and Engineering Residence Program at the University of Michigan, and I am coming into the position of the WISA CASE co chair. I mean, I have been lucky to have some really great supervisors in my career and definitely supervisors who focus on that work life balance and really making sure that they're taking care of their employees and not giving them time for themselves when they've had like a high busy time. Making sure that we're building in those days and those breaks for ourselves, whether it's in the day to day or whether it's in the busier seasons. I feel like I have been really lucky to rely on some great supervisors who just really prioritize that and know that we are workers outside of we're people outside of our jobs too. Natalie DeRosa [00:22:18]: So my name is Natalie DeRosa and I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Schnecksville, Pennsylvania. So my supervisor has been an amazing support for me personally when some of my programming had the plug bolt on it this year, and being that space where I can just grieve that that happened, that meant a lot to me. And also, we're still looking for ways to bring back the programming. I work at a community college, so sustaining programming is always a challenge for us. So being able to talk to my supervisor about it and have her be just right there as we're experiencing it has lended a lot of support to me professionally. Dan Volchek [00:22:58]: Dan Volchek, assistant dean of student success at Harvard Griffin Grad School of Arts and Sciences. My relationship with expect that and hope that in a supervisor. So as we're going through changes and uncertainty, both professionally in the career and at the institution, they were working as a team and they were talking. And sometimes that has happened and sometimes that hasn't, but that's a very important way to get through when issues come up. Vaughn Calhoun [00:23:31]: Vaughn Calhoun, Seton Hall University, hehim. I think, interestingly, you know, coming out of the pandemic, we were so used to being at home for 2 years and then coming back to campus with the thought of we're gonna be there a 100% of the time when literally our lives have readjusted based on on the pandemic. So one thing I advocated for was a work from home policy. We didn't have one across the institution. It was based on each department. So putting together a proposal, which was then accepted by our vice president and saying that, you know, this is what we can do. So that, I think, was really powerful because our staff knew and got the message that our executive administrators care. Darlene Robinson [00:24:14]: My name is Darlene Robinson. I'm the RISE general and director for Seton Hall University. I can speak to that in a sense that being that I'm just moving in to this career, I spent over 15 years in the financial aid department, and I just moved over to student services. And with this move, the supervisor that I currently have now has been very strategic in listening to me as a person, asking questions of how and what I need, and how he can be of service as well as influence. Whatever it is that I need to do my job in the Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:24:59]: Hello. My name is Miguel Angel Hernandez. I am the associate vice president and dean of students at San Francisco State University. I have been very fortunate as a individual to have had amazing mentors, supervisors, sponsors throughout my career. Faculty members that have really taught me, guided me, coached me at different aspects of my career. And so when I think about a specific time, the easy place for me is thinking about what we as a community, as a planet, have navigated these last 4 plus years of COVID through that particular global crisis. I think about the patience, the openness, the modeling that I saw from supervisors, from organizational leaders related to bringing people in, leaning in to the moment, to what individuals needed, and really giving us the capacity to rethink how we approach work, life, care, concern for each other and for the students that we serve. And so one of the things that I work very hard to do is not to romanticize that global crisis, but I am trying to make sure that I don't forget the lessons that were learned from the flexibility, the love, and the care that we demonstrated to each other to be able to navigate that time and that space.  And so that would be something that I saw both from supervisors and from organizations. I hope that we continue to allow those experiences to be centered as we move forward in our work. David Chao [00:26:29]: Hello. My name is David Chow. My pronouns are hehim. I serve as the director of IT for student affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, and I'm also the chair of the technology knowledge community. For sure during COVID, I think everyone became so much more attentive towards self care. And I'm not even just in higher education, I feel just like in the workplace in general, everyone just seemed to be working harder than their parents type mentality. And I think since then we've understood about the balance that, you know, we can't assist our students and serve them if we don't take care of ourselves as well. And some of the advice we give to them, we should probably take as well. Melinda Stoops [00:27:01]: Hi. I am Melinda Stoops. I serve as the associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. In terms of looking at times when there's been significant change or and uncertainty in everyone's life. And in higher education, there were just all of us going home for periods of times and uncertainty in what our roles were in specific moments when everyone's off campus. How are our roles different, and what can we do to contribute, and what are we needed to do to contribute? And I feel like that that was a time where there was a lot of uncertainty, and I think one thing I appreciated about that was my institution's stance of there's a lot of uncertainty, but we are really going to make a real point to care for our employees during this time. Now with that said, again, we were off campus, so caring can show up in different ways. But feeling like they were like, we are concerned about employees. We wanna make sure that you all are healthy, that you all know that your job is secure, and just that really that in and of itself went a long way. And it felt so fortunate because I know not everyone was in that same position, and I felt very privileged to be able to receive that support from my employer. I know that my colleagues on my campus were as well. Derek Grubb [00:28:26]: Derek Grubb, Dean of Enrollment Management for Red Rocks Community College in Colorado. I've been fortunate to have a lot of supervisors and colleagues I think that I've learned from how to be effective, but one more recently was past president. Really taught me the value valuing people, celebrating even the small wins, and really how that promoted a environment of caring, great place to work mindset. Matt Imboden [00:28:50]: My name is Matt Imboden. I use the he, him pronouns. I serve as the chief student services officer in the School of Business at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. And, for the past few years, I've also been chairing the administrators and graduate and professional student services knowledge community for NASPA. So I'm sure there'll be some point at which my mind doesn't completely shift to the COVID experience when somebody asked this kind of a question, but I am not at that point yet. So my mind as you were speaking, Chris, went immediately to COVID as a time that I think revealed leadership or lack thereof depending on the experience. But that's exactly one of those stressors I just talked about in terms of uncertainty that you were talking about because my goodness. I remember feeling particularly impacted when people walk the walk and just didn't talk the talk of either high level administrators who personally sacrificed in the face of budget cuts to touch their own compensation or to really demonstrate not just sort of with words, but showed me that they're in this too and that makes you want to give as an individual and I think role model that for other people on your campus. And so that stands out for me of throughout all that COVID uncertainty when all of us were pulling out the depths of our leadership ability and administrative capabilities just to see people who, went beyond the talk and really walked the walk of leadership. Evette Castillo Clark [00:30:01]: Evette Castillo Clark, vice president for student life and dean of students at Lewis and Clark College, Portland, Oregon. I'll think of myself in this as a supervisor. When you can't give or when I can't give the gift of money, I know that in times of need or support to my team, I'm gonna give the gift of time. So when I look at them, if my team or my staff are exhausted, I always talk to them about tag in and tag out. If you need the time or you need the break, me as a supervisor, I have to be very understanding of that. If you can't always offer additional monies for stipend, you gotta give the gift of time. And you have to understand that people need to regroup, and people need people need time to refuel and regain their energy. So in times like this, campus climate issues, post pandemic breaks are needed, and I think I also have to model that as well. Madeline Frisk [00:30:56]: I started this job at Portland State in 2021, was working remotely up until the fall term. I started in the spring term at our institution, so navigating that shift from remote to in person and also having colleagues that I'd basically just met in person was definitely a difficult time for me, but my boss was very supportive and everyone was very welcoming. I found a community both with our union on campus as well as with my co workers and boss, and that was a great experience being initiated into a really wonderful community at Portland State. Gene Zdziarski [00:31:32]: This is Gene Jarski. I'm vice president for student affairs at DePaul University.  I can think of a couple of situations. I will go back 25 years to Texas A&M University when I was a young staff member there, and we had an unfortunate tragedy of our traditional bonfire collapsing. And, 12 individuals were killed and 27 others were seriously injured. And the amount of attention and care that was taken by the institution beginning with the president who came in and basically said to all of us who were trying to respond and trying to work with the situation, I don't care how much it costs. I don't I want you to do the right thing. I want you to do whatever it takes to take care of people, and that was such a reassuring thing as you're trying to manage through such a challenging time, and so, for me, that was a significant moment. Gene Zdziarski [00:32:36]: I also had one when I was at DePaul University, and we had a speaker come to campus that really, disrupted the campus community tremendously. I had actually recommended to the president at that time that being a private institution, we could make some decisions about whether or not this speaker really should come to campus. And he said at the moment, no. I think we need to have a process, a plan for that, but we're not in that place right now. I think we need to go ahead and do this. After it happened and there was a lot of backlash from the campus community, he stood by me the entire time and worked with me in meeting with all the different constituencies, stakeholders, and student groups to really listen, hear people out, and then help us begin to build a plan for how we would address that in the future, and that was pretty significant to me. Lyza Liriano [00:33:22]: Hello. My name is Lyza Liriano. I currently serve as an area coordinator at DePaul University in housing and residence Life. Originally, I am from Brooklyn, New York. Yes. So prior to my role at DePaul, I worked at the University of South Florida, Tampa, and this was only about 2 years ago when there was a lot of political change happening in Florida, and impacted my identities as a queer woman of color. I didn't feel safe being in Florida, but my supervisors at the University of South Florida specifically provided me with hope knowing that I would be safe at my institution, and not only that, that I could still be there for my students. No matter what legislation was saying, we still wanted to build that community and make sure that our students really felt like their needs were being heard. And so I felt that as a professional, and we kind of instilled it to all of our student body as well. So although I did end up leaving, I left knowing that my students were in great hands. Jackie Cetera [00:34:24]: Jackie Cetera. I use sheher pronouns, and I serve as the director of residential education at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. For this, examples of when this has worked out really well has been when administrators and leaders within the institution really important for leaders to pour into their people and provide guidance even when it might be really hard to do so. Providing space to talk through situations and scenarios and to keep people informed is really, really important. Lisa Landreman [00:35:09]: My name is Lisa Landreman. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. I think that COVID is the best example. I feel really proud as an organization, as an institution, how much we held space for our employees, that we gave regular frequent communication as a team of people who were managing the crisis, particularly early on. We did really regular communication. We stayed abreast of what was happening in the world. We thought well about our community. We allowed a lot of flexibility with work even though we were in person for our students. Lisa Landreman [00:35:46]: We gave options both for students and employees to do hybrid work or remote work as needed. I think we also gave a lot of flex to parents who were or people who had family members they were caring for, and so I think we were clear about our expectations for, you know, maybe some of our goals were on hold because we were tending to what was most immediately important and what was reasonable to ask people to accomplish at a time when we were all caring so much in our personal and professional lives. I think that was a way that I was really proud of how we managed that. Jackie Yun [00:36:22]: Hi. I'm Jackie Yun. I take the she series, and I serve as the executive director of the Harvard Griffin GSAS Student Center. Sure. I think I've been lucky at my institution that they have invested heavily in my professional development, and I have been able to go to them and say, I want to learn this thing. This is how I think this connects to what I do. And maybe in some cases, it doesn't always really connect, but they understand that providing me the support to keep learning and to try new things keeps me at the institution and keeps me doing good work for graduate students. Leanna Fenneberg [00:36:55]: Hello. This is Leanna Fenneberg. I'm the incoming chief student affairs officer at Duquesne University. I think so many of our institutions are going through reductions in force. I've personally, been impacted by those, and I've had to lead those with staff. And those are some of the most critical times for the people who are departing and for the community members who remain. And so I think of those difficulties as we all have budget reductions and how we can provide a loving supportive environment for all of the employees, even those who are directly affected in helping them support in their next journey and making difficult decisions and communicating those, but doing that in a ethic of care and concern for the individual and providing that kind of supportive community during some of our most difficult times. Jake Murphy [00:37:41]: Jake Murphy. I'm the director of prospective students services at OSU Institute of Technology, and I am over all recruitment and retention efforts at the university. Probably best example is my most recent position with a supervisor. I've just been in the role like about 2 years now. The university had been in a perpetual decline of enrollment for the last 10 years and it was morale was low. Everything was like absolutely terrible and my supervisor employed strategies to make sure that since we can't necessarily pay people the best in student affairs affairs sometimes, that she gave us the opportunity to use whatever time we needed to be felt supported and it really helped all of, like, bolster morale and just helped us avoid burnout which was great. Larry Pakowski [00:38:29]: Larry Pakowski. I'm the vice president for student engagement, inclusion and success at Aims Community College in Greeley, Colorado. I think COVID is a good example for us all that we all shifted to a remote environment overnight, and then some schools came back sooner, some schools came back later. And I think it was really an exercise in making sure that we not only forgot our people, but also the mission of the college and ensuring that we were doing what we needed to do by students, but also our employees as well. Jillaine Zenkelberger [00:38:56]: Hi. I'm doctor Jillaine Zenkelberger. I am the program coordinator over at Graduate Student Life at the University of Notre Dame. Yeah. So actually, a really good example is this year, we have a new dean of our grad school, Mike Hildreth at University of Notre Dame. And with any new head, new leadership, there's always, like, oh, what is this gonna mean for changes in our programs? But he's really taken the time to, like, sit down and listen to what our offices need and what our students need so that not only are we addressing students' concerns, but we're doing it in a way that's practical for us as employees. Because I think that sometimes we focus only on one side of initiatives and forget, like, well, somebody has to do it and has to have the capacity to do it. I think he's done a really good job and our team at the grad school has done a really good job of keeping those two things in mind. Kristen Merchant [00:39:49]: Hi, everyone. I'm Kristen Merchant. I am from Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I am the associate director of the union and student Activities Office there and also the director of our lead programs. So my boss's name is also Kristen, but her name is Kristen Lloyd. She always just supports us with whatever we need, asks how we're doing. If she can sense that we're kind of feeling burnt out or tired or exhausted, she always takes the time to check-in with us us and give us some extra time off if we need it, and she just always helps make sure that we feel confident in our roles, and that just makes me feel very, very supported and confident in my roles. Joe Lizza [00:40:25]: My name isDr. Joe Lizza. I'm the director of the Chamberlain Student Center and Campus Activities at Rowan University in New Jersey. When I was a few years within my first full time job, I knew I wanted some type of change, and I had very supportive supervisors that provided me those opportunities knowing that the growth at the time in my current role and maybe the growth at the institution wasn't necessarily there, but they gave me some tools both through mentoring, but also through professional development opportunities to kinda seek out that next step. And they were just very upfront. I feel like sometimes people kinda string you along. They were very upfront to say, we love your work. You're doing a great job, but maybe your next step is not here. And they really provided that support to look elsewhere, which ultimately then allowed me for advancement outside of that original institution. Joshua Allred [00:41:19]: My name is Joshua Allred. I work at Louisiana State University in the College of Agriculture as their manager of student services. Sure. So we had a a pretty significant restructuring in our office a while back, like, about a year ago when our assistant dean left. And I work in an academic affairs unit so they took that time to really kind of restructure and move some pieces around. And so there was an uncertainty in terms of, are our jobs secure? Are our jobs moving around? Are we gonna have some significant changes in, like, what are what's under the purview of our our jobs. And again, I think having strong leadership and having them assure us and and talk through us the entire time as things were being discussed and actually listening to our input and getting feedback from us about our experiences being kind of the boots on the ground people working with students, I thought was really helpful and thoughtful. I think sometimes frustration, especially in uncertainty and during times of change, comes from folks at the top who don't necessarily have the most recent experience working with students in, like, a really direct way, making these really big sweeping decisions and not always taking into consideration the opinions and the feedback from folks who are doing just that. Joshua Allred [00:42:25]: Wow. So one of the things I continue to do is try to be innovative and think what's next? What more can I do to support students and support student success? I don't wanna come in and do the same programs over and over again. I want to do my best to collaborate, whether it's with my partners in academic affairs or my partners in student affairs. But whenever uncertainty comes, then that says, how do I make sure that students are successful? Because in uncertainty, they wanna make sure that what you're doing is supporting student success. So that's what I do. At Texas A&M, specifically, we just had a major change in who our president is, and we changed from the College of Education to the School of Education and Human Development. There were a lot of the professionals within the College of Education and Human Development who weren't happy with that change and thought that our peers around the country would look at us and say, School of Education and Human Development, we're a college, we do more, we're a research one institution, why is that happening with us? And, again, during that time of change and that time of uncertainty, our focus in the Burns Center was how do we make sure that we are supporting our students and making sure our students are successful? How do we make sure those persistence and retention and graduation rates continue to stay high and how can we raise them? Judy Traveis [00:43:58]: Hi, everyone. I'm Judy Traveis. I'm the associate dean for the Graduate Student Success Center at the University of Florida. I would say recently, I'm from the University of Florida and the Florida landscape has been impacted greatly with big issues in the DE and I space. And I think throughout it all, leadership had town hall meetings and general counsel available to help shape and create our programs so that they can live in the new world. Katie Caponera [00:44:31]: I'm Katie Caponera, director of student life at Harvard Divinity School. This past academic year has been one of the most challenging that I've experienced in my 15 years in higher ed, and I know it's been challenging on many campuses. It's felt particularly difficult at Harvard. We're very much in the national spotlight, but I think that what's helped me get through those challenging pieces and times have been the supportive colleagues and my supervisor who's been amazing at checking in and keeping everybody up to date on what's going on, talking through what we may be facing, and being very clear about what expectations are and what strategies are to approach what may be coming to us given the different types of uncertainty and and challenge that are present. Kathy Dilks [00:45:19]: My name is Kathy Dilks, and I am the director of graduate student and post doctoral affairs at the Icahn School of Medicine, the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences. Supervisors have always been very, very helpful. I think one of the best tips they've ever given me is perception is reality. So anytime that I come with questions or uncertainties or even in my professional outlook, I remember that one phrase over and over again, and I strive to put my best foot forward if I've always had the luxury of working with other people who are able to answer questions, able to guide me along the way. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:45:58]: Julie Payne Kirchmeier, vice president for student success for the u Indiana University. It's not really a system. It's a multi campus university, but we can say Indiana University System if that's easier for folk to kinda place the role. It keeps me steady as a leader and as a member of an organization. It keeps me steady. And be vulnerable, as we talked about. It's a harder one to answer, I think, because particularly the past 4 years have just been so upside down for all of us. And so finding examples of care and support in such an uncertain time, relating back to question 1, is really hard. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:46:30]: But I will name a moment, and it was pre the disruption that we all know of COVID, but it was so fundamental and so just roiling with uncertainty is when I was at Northwestern as the associate vice president and chief of staff, and our vice president passed away. Beloved, long, long battle with cancer, and I will say her name, Patricia Theus Urban, an icon in our field. And it was one of those moments you knew eventually was coming, but it doesn't make it any easier. And the pain and the shock and just the sadness that just infiltrated the division and the campus, and there was a lot of burden that was put on our division to plan her memorial and a whole host of things. So, you know, like, good student affairs professionals, we just jump in and get it done. But during that time, we really tried to provide spaces, conversations, moments, touch points, remembrances of her, and not just at the memorial. We would take moments throughout the coming year to pause, to remember, to talk about, to laugh, to, you know, all the things that you wanna do to move through a really painful time. And, you know, I can look back on it, and that was 5 almost 5 years ago now, which is kind of mind blowing. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:47:40]: And I'm really proud and honored to have been part of a community that did that for each other. I'm not gonna stand here and say it was me. I'm not gonna stand here and say it was a small group. It really was that full community of student affairs that came together and did that. I think one of the sad things for me is that you don't often see that happen outside of student affairs in higher education, and I think we've got to do better Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:47:59]: as an Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:47:59]: industry, as a field, in industry, as a field in remembering that we have to show up for each other in these really important ways, large and small. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:10]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:49:03]: Catch you next time.

Welcome to NASPA's SA Voices From the Field Podcast where we delve into discussions that shape the future of higher education and student support. In today's post, we reflect on the poignant insights from Dr. Joisanne Rodgers, Director of Contemporary Student Services at George Mason University, who recently graced our podcast episode. **Bridging Gaps: From First-Gen Student to Student Advocacy** Dr. Rodgers' noteworthy journey from a security-seeking first-generation college student to a beacon for inclusive education mirrors the ambitions of many striving to find belonging within academia's halls. Her multifaceted career path exemplifies how diverse experiences can coalesce into a powerful drive for institutional change. Rodgers' role at George Mason University is not just about administration; it's about forging connections with and for students who have traditionally been on the periphery of college life support structures. **Language Evolution: A Step Toward Inclusion** The evolution from 'non-traditional' to 'post-traditional' student terminology that Dr. Rodgers discusses signifies an important shift in the higher education lexicon. By moving towards more inclusive language, institutions like George Mason University acknowledge the changing demographics of their student bodies and the unique challenges these students face, underscoring a commitment to support that encompasses not just academic, but life success. **A Supportive Community: More Than Just Space** Dr. Rodgers highlights that creating physical and conceptual spaces for students to flourish is paramount. George Mason University's community spaces, unique ambassador positions, and appreciation events underscore an approach that sees students not as secondary participants in their education but as central figures with rich, intricate narratives expanding beyond the classroom. **Post-Traditional Pioneering: A University's Role** The university isn't just leading the charge through in-house initiatives but is contributing to the broader dialogue on supporting post-traditional students, partnering with organizations such as NASPA. These partnerships foster a crucial exchange of best practices and innovative ideas, equipping institutions to better serve their diverse student populations. **Looking Forward** As Dr. Rodgers and many other advocates for contemporary students make clear, universities have an opportunity and responsibility to adapt, evolve, and provide equitable support. This not only benefits post-traditional students but enriches the entire educational community. Their successes aren't just personal triumphs; they are milestones in the progress towards a more inclusive, holistic approach to higher education.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back for our next episode of essay voices from the field, where once again we were able to sit down with a guest at the NASPA annual conference. I'm pleased to introduce you today to doctor Joisanne Rogers, sheher. Joisanne is a first generation college student, a post traditional student, a life long learner, and an educator passionate about post traditional and contemporary students. Doctor Rogers has worked in higher education for nearly 20 years in various roles, including admissions and recruitment, advising and success coaching, housing and residence life, marketing and outreach, retention initiatives, and student success initiatives. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:55]: She currently serves as director of contemporary student services at George Mason University in Virginia. Doctor Rogers leads a fantastic team of advocates and champions, serving Mason's contemporary student population. This team collaborates and partners throughout the Mason community to support contemporary student belonging, thriving and success. The team are proud recipients of the bronze level 2023, 2024, NASPA Excellence Award in commuter, off campus, military connected, non traditional, and related. Doctor Rogers also serves as an adjunct associate professor at University of Maryland Global Campus, where she earned outstanding adjunct faculty designation as an alumni volunteer at Algany College in Pennsylvania. Doctor Rogers earned a bachelor's in political science and dance studies from Alghany College, a master's in student affairs and higher education from Western Kentucky University, a specialist in leadership from American College of Education, and a doctorate in leadership with a focus on higher education from American College of Education. Her research interests include post traditional and contemporary students, mitigation and elimination of institutional barriers, and student success and retention. Welcome to essay voices, Joisanne. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:58]: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. And thank you so much for taking time out of your conference schedule to sit with us here in Seattle. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:04]: Absolutely. It's delightful rainy weather, So glad to hang out with you for a bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]: This is my hometown and, you know, people are always like, oh, it must rain a lot in Seattle. I'm like, oh, not really. And I really appreciate that Seattle's like showing out for you all with the rain today. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:20]: It's true. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:20]: We also may get to be dodging a protest for a different organization today. So, you know, all sorts of eventful things happening in Seattle. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:28]: Well, coming from DC, I'm I'm a pro.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:30]: Oh, the other Washington. Yeah. The other Washington. The other Washington. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:33]: We got it covered. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:33]: I do when I say I'm from Washington, people go DC and I'm like, no. State. The other other farther away one. But we're really looking forward to learning from you today about your transition story into higher education from an arts background. That's something that you and I share in common. My bachelor's degree is in music performance. And weird fun fact, I used to teach top classes to pay for college. So Nice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:55]: So I'm really looking forward to hearing that from you. We got to know you a little bit at the top of the show through your bio, but we always love to start with asking our guests how you got to your current seat. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:03]: Sure. So first of all, I'm a 1st generation college student, and so I went to undergrad not far from where I grew up. A little bit of safety in that. I knew the institution, knew the campus. And so not knowing much of anything else, that was where I was going. I had friends who went there. So I went to Allegheny College as an undergraduate, majored in political science, and minored in dance studies. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:29]: I taught community ballroom classes.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]: So I love this. I love this so much. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:35]: And then I figured out while I was there. I went in, wanting to be a lawyer. That's what I was gonna do. And non spoiler spoiler alert, that's not what I'm doing as I'm on the NASPA podcast. Right? And so I found that those folks that were outside of the classroom were really the folks who were making big differences in what my access and what I could do and how I thought about things and and that kind of stuff and figured out that that was a job. Yeah. Who knew? And so I started looking for programs and positions both and got hired at Western Kentucky University. So I was a full time housing residence life staff member, part time graduate student there. Joisanne Rodgers [00:04:18]: I was an assistant hall director and hall director through that, and then moved to the DC area and realized that many times there's a gap between the academic side of the house and the student affairs side of the house. Mhmm. And I wanted to collect secret decoder rings Oh. To help build those bridges. So I started looking in the DC area for positions that were maybe academic adviser positions or those kinds of things that leaned into the student affairs counseling things that I've been doing just kind of in a different way. And so I became an academic advisor that then kind of morphed into a success coach role at what was then University of Maryland University College is now University of Maryland Global Campus, and started working with post traditional students at a non traditional institution, which was very different than any experience at at the institutions I had been at, small liberal arts, regional with some global reach, into this global giant institution and learned a lot through my work there, but also connecting with colleagues and moved up and around there and decided I should probably go for that next degree because why not? Worked on my doctorate, did my research in institutional barriers for non, post traditional students, and all of that kind of came together for the position that I'm in now at George Mason University. So in 2019, George Mason University created the contemporary student services unit, which is a really innovative, first of its kind way to serve all of these different post traditional populations and the intersectionalities of all of those in a one stop shop kind of way, really. And so, like I said, it's a it's a first of its kind, and as of last Google, the only of its kind. Joisanne Rodgers [00:06:05]: So when I saw the job description, it was one of those things where I took a moment and thought, okay. Either someone is totally stalking me online and created this specifically for me, or I may have just found the job I've always been looking for. Either way, like, I sent it to my friends. I'm like, I'm not misreading this. Right? Like They wrote this for me. Joisanne Rodgers [00:06:25]: They wrote this for me. I didn't completely, like, lose total reading comprehension. Right? So, I had that moment of this is too good to be true. Right? And it wasn't, and that is fabulous. And so I applied and hired on and now work with this incredible team of folks who are dedicated to post traditional students, contemporary students off campus transfer, adult learners, student parents, veteran military connected folks, foster care alumni, system impacted folks. So it's a really great place and a really great space to be innovative and stay ahead and to use all of that background. I like to tell folks because we had a conversation about having that arts beginning that I use my dance theory and knowledge just as frequently student development. It just really depends because they both are part of the everyday process of the work that I do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:26]: I'd like to dig into the language that you're using a little bit because I think that is an evolution and transition of how we've talked about students over 25 and students with children and etcetera, etcetera. So you're now using the term post traditional students and non traditional student is the terming that had been used for years. So tell us, about the inclusion of that new term and how it's reflective of current practice and why it's different. Joisanne Rodgers [00:07:51]: Yeah. So nontraditional, anything non. Right? You're not the usual. That makes you feel great. Right? Like, no. Am I really supposed to be here? But I don't yeah. So there's some othering about that. And so post traditional is more inclusive, still descriptive, and is coming up in the research. Joisanne Rodgers [00:08:12]: More is the the term used. And that definition of that is, yes, 25 and older, but also anyone who has adult, and I'm putting air quotes around that that you can't see, adult responsibilities. So that includes those student parents, married, widowed, divorced, military and veteran connected, although, admittedly, there's a whole another set of criteria and things going on for those folks when we talk about JSTs and all these other things. But so it's more inclusive of that in a kind of a broader umbrella, and the term, the language to it is better, in my humble opinion, for that population. But then elevating that even more, talking about contemporary students at Mason, and our definition of that is, yes, our post traditional, but also our transfer students are part of that. Our off campus students are part of that as well. So those folks who, again, don't fit that traditional mold, who come in with more experience than the traditional student might. And it's really about honoring and seeing the folks, the students that are sitting in front of us and not the picture that we have in our head of 18 straight out of high school straight in has no other responsibilities living on campus. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:23]: I really appreciate that new framing of contemporary student. I'm also wondering how you connect that term to the students that you're serving because it might be new for them as well. Joisanne Rodgers [00:09:32]: It's absolutely new for them. It's also new for our faculty and staff as well. Mhmm. And so we've spent some time like I said, the contemporary student services or CSS was established before lockdown. And then lockdown happened, and there was a lot of turnover and a lot of changes, of course, as everybody's experienced. So in this post lockdown era, 3 of my 4 staff members, myself included, were new into CSS. And so that really gave us a chance to kind of reestablish ourselves and reach out and connect with the faculty and staff as well as the students across the institution to reintroduce, reconnect, and reestablish contemporary, what that is, what that looks like, and how the great thing is also that all of my staff members hold some contemporary identity. I was an adult learner. Joisanne Rodgers [00:10:26]: 1 of my coordinators is a transfer student. Another one is student parent. So we all hold those identities. So when we say peer, we mean it though we may not be in classes right now, it honestly wasn't that long ago that we were in that very same spot. And so having those conversations and having that lived experience really makes the biggest difference when we're connecting with students, but also when we're representing our students and advocating for our students. So, I'd like to say our work is about ACEs, a c e s. We advocate, celebrate, educate, and serve. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:58]: Okay. And we have to make sure that we're separating that ACES from adverse childhood experiences.  Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:04]: Yes, for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:05]: That's really helpful to kind of wrap our minds around this different conceptualization. You also said that George Mason is on the forefront of this new transition of how we're thinking about serving these very unique but growing populations at our university. Mhmm. How are you working with others in the field to kind of stabilize some of this and normalize it? Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:25]: Yeah. So we're doing a lot internally and then regionally and then nationally. Right? So we've partnered for some of our subpopulations. We've partnered with folks like Generation Hope and participated in a Family U cohort. We, in this last year, earned the Family U seal, which is really exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. We're super excited about that to kind of amplify and celebrate our work with student parents and caregiver caregivers. Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:54]: And but we're also working with our 1st generation center because the when you add 1st gen over over contemporary populations, that Venn diagram doesn't really get all that much bigger. It still stays real tight. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:05]: Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:12:06]: So we partner with our friends in 1st gen center, which are part of the 1st gen efforts through NASPA. And so having NASPA support in that is beautiful and really helpful. And we also are working with everyone from, for example, our Marcom, our marketing communications folks at the institution and in our university life space to make sure that there's visual representation of all of our students too. And so we wanna make sure that we're seeing that our students are seeing themselves in all of the collateral that happens in the marketing that happens across the institution and across the region because there are buses driving all over DC with Mason on them, and we want them to see themselves in that in that place and space too. And now we're looking at I'm here at NASPA. We're, taking that in. We're also Generation Hope is hosting their very first HOPE conference this year in New Orleans. So I'm going straight from NASPA to that conference Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:03]: To present, but also to take in what other folks are doing. And we're part of an Aspen network for Ascend. So we're really trying to connect in to work smarter, not harder, as I mentioned. So for us, we have, as I mentioned before, 4 full time professional staff members. We have a graduate student and student staff as well as an office manager. And sometimes I'm talking to folks and they say, oh my gosh. You only have 4 staff members to do that. And I talk to other folks, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:32]: You have 4 staff members. I'd love to have that. So we're in a great spot, kind of. And so looking at that too and making sure that as we're looking at emerging populations and looking at our work, that we're staying in a place where we can really help and advocate across the institution that we are not the only ones doing this work. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:55]: I think that's the important part of it too is as we're gathering ideas from NASPA sessions, as we're gathering ideas from Hope Conference sessions, some of my staff went to FYE this year. And gathering that information, it's about how do we partner, what are great ways that we can advocate, consult, do these things so that, ideally, all of our faculty and staff across Mason see this contemporary student work as their work too. Joisanne Rodgers [00:14:25]: And a lot of times, it's just having the conversation about the language or having a little bit of conversation about calling them in to that work and making just little tweaks and changes because most of the time they're doing it. They just don't know that they're doing it. Or we're saying, that's really great. What if you could? And kind of leveling it up. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:45]: There's a book for 1st gen student success that NASPA, I believe, is a co publisher on, or maybe the publisher on. I I don't know exactly, but there's a list in it about, like, the 15 or 25 things that you can do to support first gen students. And the messaging I always come back to with that is if it's good for 1st gen students, it's good for all students because it's really about teaching people how to navigate the system of higher education, creating new to the system don't have, the social capital to understand, and and I really hear the echoes of serving those first gen students with your contemporary students. And it just it's so great to see that you're creating synergy with your 1st gen success center as well. Joisanne Rodgers [00:15:28]: Absolutely. And you're 12,000 percent correct in that, like, that hidden curriculum, the paper ceilings that a lot of our adult learners and and folks are hitting, and that's what's bringing them back into our into higher ed. But also understanding this strange lexicon that they've either never encountered or it's been a really long time, or maybe they encountered it with their children when they were sending their kids to college, but they've never had to apply that to themselves. And so it works a little differently. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, those overlaps are spot on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:01]: I wanna talk a little bit about that dance theory component because with your origins being in the arts and dance theory, a lot of people that have never studied the arts in a formal context probably are saying I didn't know that there was theory to apply to to arts in that way. And we have those theories in music education and dance education. It's about how we teach learning. It's about how we absorb and create and a number of other things. So I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about 1 or 2 of the dance theories that you rely on and how you're transitioning those from context of the ballroom to context of contemporary Joisanne Rodgers [00:16:34]: students. Sure. So I have this kind of, like, running list of yes. There's, like, the formal theories and learning and and things like that, but I also kind of have this running list of things that always came from the director of the dance program, my undergrad, who doctor Jan Hyatt, love her, had these phrases that she always used that really stuck. And so a couple of those I think I have a list of, like, 10 or 15 in my notebook that have come with me all of these years later. And so the one that I use most frequently is you have to put the support in place before you need it. So whether you're executing a dance move, whether you're like, you don't just start playing for music, like, you just don't start playing. You ready yourself, instrument up, fingering, all of those things. Joisanne Rodgers [00:17:20]: Right? And so even when you're taking a step forward, your body is you do it unconsciously, more likely than not, but your body is putting these supports in place so that when you step forward, you don't fall flat on your face. Mhmm. So it's the same thing. We're talking about emerging populations. There were changes in Pell Grant rules and regs that open possibilities for previously incarcerated folks. That means that's that's opening up this emerging population. We've been looking at that population for the last year and a half or so, doing some research, doing some interviews, and putting together toolkits so that we can put the support in place before we need it. Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:17:57]: So, yes, some of those students already exist in our population, but we know that the possibility of more is coming. So we're putting that support in place before we need it. Just like if we were stepping forward, we don't wanna fall on our faces. Not that it's gonna work perfectly. Right? Practice and test and learns, that's how we come at it, but applying that. The other thing that I will say from her, mainly because this links directly into the podcast, is life is in the transitions. And so the importance of a move to the space in between the two moves is just as important as hitting your point or hitting the move or those kinds of things. And so that transition space and time is when things happen. Joisanne Rodgers [00:18:37]: Like, that's where the good stuff happens. And so that is always part of what I remind myself of as things are happening, and I translate that into the work and kind of the business y thing of, like, testing test and learns. Right? It's always a process and it's an iterative process. Speaking of more theory, formal theory, is one of my favorite quotes from Margaret Dobler is, where the sum total are experiences Mhmm. And that's the only way we can show up, and that's the only way that we can react, which to me says meet the students where they are. Like, those things are very, if not exactly the same, very, very similar, which is a tenet of student affairs. Right? How many times do you hear folks say meet the students where they are? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:19]: Mhmm. That tenet has been one of the major constants through NASPA's existence, I think. You know, the organization itself is, I think, a 100 ish years old, and the the core of NASPA's philosophies have been fairly constant over time. I had the pleasure of interviewing some folks, it was maybe 3 years ago at this point, who were the administrators at Kent State University during the Kent State situation, situation. And they read me the NASPA manual from that year, and it was all still relevant. So it's really interesting to see how the way that we approach the work has changed a lot over time and we've become more justice focused, we've become more inclusive, we've become broader in who we serve, but we are still keeping that core of we're trying to help college students and young adults kind of realize their full selves in that out of classroom space, continue to show up as our best. Joisanne Rodgers [00:20:08]: Yeah. Keeping that good stuff as the core. Absolutely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:11]: I'm wondering if you could tell us how folks might be able to read more about these new evolutions in serving contemporary students. Because we're not seeing that research necessarily show up as boldly in some of the major journals, but there's so much work that is, I think, the future of what's happening in American higher education, specifically. Joisanne Rodgers [00:20:28]: Yeah. I think when we're looking at research, we get really specific. So for me, when I was doing, for example, my dissertation research and doing my lit review, it was a lot of looking at the specific subpopulations. Student parent, parenting student, all the variations of that. And so looking at that broader space, you know, I think about all of the advice that I got as I was constructing my research questions and things like that. And without fail, the first I would like to say 2 to 3, but it was probably more like 6 to 8 times. It was like, no. You gotta get narrower. Joisanne Rodgers [00:21:12]: It's like you're you're gonna you're never gonna get this done if you don't get specific. And so I think that's what's hard is that post traditional is so big and broad, contemporary is so big and broad, and so we talk a lot and there's a lot of research about those subpopulations, but looking at that in the broader sense is a little harder. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:31]: You just said what every doctoral student has heard, too much pain. Right? Like, please please narrow your focus. I'm working with a person right now who is trying to narrow their focus from studying a population that is millions of people and going, oh, I just wanna study the population. Okay. But what about that population? And it's just so important for doctoral students to remember this is the first time you'll do independent research, not the last time. Yes. That's a hard lesson to learn, I think. Joisanne Rodgers [00:22:00]: Yeah. It absolutely I did a lit review on contemporary students, what would I be doing, and how would I look at these subpopulations, and how would I bring this together? And then thinking about those big, over arching Mhmm. Needs that are identified in that in that literature. So coordination of service being one of those, access and not necessarily access to education, which might be where your brain goes immediately when I say access, but it's really access to information. Mhmm. It's that social capital piece. Exactly. And so having those and having a not just a group of peers, but a group of peers that reflect their identities Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:22:46]: And whatever is most salient in the moment. So we know that for adult learners in particular, and this is true across all contemporary populations, but if they have a peer group that is just traditional students, it's not great. It can be detrimental. Mhmm. So helping them find their community and find their village, I've been at Mason I don't know. It feels like maybe 12 minutes. Really, it was probably a couple months. And one of our student parents who is working with us with Generation Hope was our student parent fellow. Valeria said at a convening, said everybody says it takes a village. Joisanne Rodgers [00:23:26]: But not everybody has one. Mhmm. And that just I was like, yeah. Exactly. That, like, just hit me, and it was this beautiful encapsulation Joisanne Rodgers [00:23:38]: Of everything that we were talking about, of students coming in and not having what they need, but that we could help and we could connect them, and we could be a village. We could be part of that support network and system. And not being a student parent, but being an auntie of, like, in with my best friend who was a student parent. She was getting her MBA, and my goddaughter was really, really tiny. And I was doing my doctorate, and so we were trading off for doing homework and hanging out with the kiddo and all of those things. And so I get that village. I'm like, I am a villager. We can be villagers. Joisanne Rodgers [00:24:15]: Let's do it. But that's not just true for our student parents and caregivers. It's true for many of our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:22]: You just gave one great example of what that can look like in practice. I'm wondering if you have any other practice elements that you think is important for our listenerships. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:24:29]: I think the big things for us that we've gotten really big positive feedback on are several things. 2 that I'll pull out is 1, we have community spaces that we plan out early so that we can let our students get those on their calendars and make notes so that they can make the time. We'll also do multimodal, so sometimes they'll be in person, sometimes they'll be online, so they can connect with each other. And it's really it's truly just a space of, like, we're providing the space, but our students our student workers, we've created, student ambassador positions that work differently than your traditional student worker position where you're asking for 15 or 20 hours a week. Those aren't working for all of our contemporary students, particularly for our adult learners, our student parents, and military veteran connected folks. Many of them are already living in time poverty, so asking for 15 to 20 hours a week, not gonna happen. Mhmm. So we created these ambassador positions that are right now, I think we have them set to, like, 50, 55 hours over the entirety of the semester. Joisanne Rodgers [00:25:37]: Okay. And we have a stipend that's attached to that because their lived experience is important, and if we're doing things for them, we wanna do that with them. And so those students are supporting those spaces and coming up with ideas of activities or topics and connections. So that's one thing that has been really great, and it's really helped our students build their own villages and build their their success network across the Mason community too because we also invite our colleagues into that space and into our lounge that we have on campus. I think the other thing is that, like every other population, we have us the contemporary student appreciation week. But we do that in April, and at the end of the week, we have a graduation celebration for our contemporary students. So we have contemporary student courts that they can come and pick up and wear at commencement. But at the graduation celebration, if they haven't already grabbed those, we have those available for them. Joisanne Rodgers [00:26:35]: But we encourage them to bring their village. We don't limit the number of folks that they can bring. We want them to bring their kids. We have kids' activities at the at the event. We want them to bring their parents. We want them to bring whoever is supporting them and has been a champion for them, including Mason faculty and staff. So So when they RSVP for that event, we ask them, who's been a champion for you? Who really made a difference? Is there a professor, a staff member, a community member that really just lifted you up or amplified or advocated for you or just was there and supportive and would listen? And when they identify the folks, we send them an invite. You know, like, come celebrate with us. Joisanne Rodgers [00:27:16]: And so we have this really great mix of students and their families and faculty and staff, and our VP comes and talks, and our AVP, and it's just this really beautiful event. We give them a whole bunch of, like, different areas. They can take pictures, and it's just a really beautiful event that kind of setting yourself up for success when you do a graduation celebration. That part I won't lie about. I know. Like, we're already starting at a 7 out of 10. But those connections are also really great in that space of having gratitude at the end of this journey that was not easy. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:27:50]: There isn't anybody in that room being like, this was a breeze. Glad to see I'm out. No. Everybody in that room is, this was a hard one situation. Mhmm. And I had to make some hard decisions. I had to make some really difficult priority management decisions, And I just have some really interesting conversations with my partner, with my kids about, it's homework time. You do your homework. Joisanne Rodgers [00:28:15]: I'm doing my homework. This is what we've gotta do. But at the end, it wasn't easy, but it wasn't worth it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:21]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:27]: Thanks so much, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a number of professional development opportunities that are coming up in the future that some of you may have an interest in. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is coming up December 10th through December 13th, and the call for programs ends on May 9, 2024. The Women's Leadership Institute provides an experience that offers strategies for women to succeed in the higher education profession. Participants include women with from facilities and operations, administration, auxiliary services, student affairs, recreation, and libraries who share a passion for the profession and plan to lead with lasting impact. This is a joint venture between NASPA and ACUI and a great opportunity for anyone looking to hone their leadership skills for working in a rapidly changing environment while also developing a better understanding of the campus as a workplace and culture and being able to connect with others to share experiences about how campuses are adapting and adjusting to the new reality that surrounds us. Early registration goes through October 21st, but the big deadline right now, as I mentioned at the beginning, is the call for programs, which does end on May 9, 2024. Some of the leadership cycle topics that are encouraged include topics surrounding supervision and performance management, strategic planning, financial well-being, upskillreskill, the bridge to the future, delegating and giving away, picking up new skills and putting things down. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:00]: I highly encourage you to consider putting in a program proposal and if not, consider attending this amazing professional development opportunity. You can find out more on the NASPA website. The 2024 NASPA M. Ben Hogan Small Colleges and Universities Institute is coming up June 23rd through 26th in Portland, Oregon. This institute is hosted on a biannual basis by NASPA Small College and Universities Division. The Institute is a 4 day residential program, during which vice presidents for student affairs and the equivalent and other senior level leaders engage in discussion and reflection about critical issues in student affairs and examine effective and innovative programs. There's still time to register under the early registration deadline, which is April 30, 2024. This Institute offers amazing opportunities for individuals working at small colleges and universities to be able to build lasting friendships and connections that will help them to be able to lead their own units at their own institutions in new ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:04]: If you've never attended this professional development in the past, I highly encourage you to attend this year. You definitely don't want to miss this opportunity to be able to connect, be rejuvenated and to prepare yourself to lead your organization to the next level. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is happening December 9th through December 11th in Philadelphia. This is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA, College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for Leadership Programs. LEI provides a unique opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on your campus. The Leadership Institute creates a space for student affairs administrators, scholars, and practitioners to discuss and advance current leadership topics, such as modern leadership theories and models, including new research, applications and critical perspectives, innovative and inclusive curriculum, pedagogy, and strategies for leadership studies courses, assessment and evaluation of leadership programs, student development and learning outcomes, future directions in leadership education and development based on widely used studies and standards such as the multi institutional study of leadership, CAS, and ILA guiding questions, unique co curricular program models and high impact practices, including those with cohort and multi year engagement, distance and online learning, service learning, mentoring, and global experiences. Strategy and management of leadership program operations, including staff training, funding, and partnerships, as well as interdissectional and interdisciplinary approaches to leadership education. If you are someone that is leading leadership training and leadership development of students on your own campus or wish to be a part of that in the future, this professional development is a must go to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:06]: Registration is now open. Pre early registration ends on June teenth with early registration ending on September 9th. Find out more on the NASPA website. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:14]: Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:42]: Chris, thank you so much for another great addition of NASPA World. We really appreciate you keeping us informed on what's going around in and around NASPA. And, Joisanne, we have reached our lightning round. Oh. I've got 7 questions for you. 90 seconds. Oh my. Alright. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:56]: I'm ready. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:00]: your entrance music be? Ain't No Man, The Avett Brothers. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:03]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:06]: I wanted to be a teacher because student affairs professional, not on the kindergarten chart.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:12]: True story. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:17]: I had a list. I talked about Jan, which is important. I think in the place and space that I'm in right now, it's my current supervisor, Sally Laurenson, and she has been amazing. Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Oh my gosh. Everything. Consume everything you can and run it through the lens of you and your life and your strengths and your institution. Number 5. Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:45]: The best TV show you binged during the pandemic. I feel like I should say The Chair, because it just is absolutely directly related, but really the guilty pleasure version of that is Love is Blind. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:57]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Joisanne Rodgers [00:36:00]: Oh, that one's easy. Malcolm Gladwell revisionist history. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:04]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Joisanne Rodgers [00:36:08]: Oh, my gosh. Everybody. I stand on the shoulders of giants is really what that is. So I have this really amazing family that despite not having a lens necessarily for what I do is still a 1000% in. And when I say things like, I'm sorry. I can't come home for Thanksgiving if you want me home at Christmas. They were not thrilled about it, but they made it work and were lovely the whole time, and I know that was difficult. And so I love them, but, also, I've had the privilege of working with some really great folks and having people like Ted Smith, who was my first RD, who told me this could be a job, and support from folks at Allegheny, as well as then moving into my first professional position at Western Kentucky University and having this group of folks who were in it and wanted everyone to succeed in just this really great village of folks that supported me in that and helped me learn how to be a professional in that place and space. Joisanne Rodgers [00:37:10]: And my first supervisor, Nick Wired, and Brian Powell, and Ben Ellis just absolutely giving me space and grace to fail fast and forward, and supporting me in that, and having a leadership team, particularly in in HRL, but also in my internships and things like that. So my Western Kentucky family, my Hilltopper family being great support in that as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:38]: Joisanne, I know I learned a lot from you today, and I'm sure there are others who have. If they'd like to reach out to you, how can they find you? Joisanne Rodgers [00:37:44]: Absolutely. You can find me on LinkedIn. Look at the ad for my name. It's spelled a little differently than you might think, but I'm pretty easy to find. So connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a note, add a note to that that you heard me here and ask some questions. I'm always happy to answer those or jump on a Zoom with someone and chat about what's going on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:03]: Thank you so much, Joisanne, for sharing your voice with us today. Joisanne Rodgers [00:38:06]: Absolutely. Thank you for having Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:10]: me. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:44]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Embracing the Unknown The field of student affairs is constantly evolving, and professionals in this domain must be equipped with strategies to navigate uncertainty effectively. Success in this arena comes from a blend of versatility, patience, and transparency. Versatility and Adaptation Aquaneta Pinkert from Alabama State University highlights the importance of being well-versed in various areas, allowing for a smooth pivot when needed. Embracing a versatile approach prevents stagnation and ensures relevance in meeting student needs. This pivot-and-adapt strategy is crucial in staying dynamic within the field. Patience and Trust Taylor Cain of the University of Georgia emphasizes practicing patience amidst uncertainty. By trusting the process and focusing on controllable elements, student affairs professionals can maintain composure and lead with confidence, even when future outcomes are unclear. Transparency in Leadership Dr. Adrienne White from George Mason University shares her experience during COVID, when uncertainty reached a peak. By committing to monthly one-on-ones with her team and maintaining transparency, she fostered a supportive environment that not only alleviated concerns but also reinforced trust and collective problem-solving. Moving Forward with Resilience As student affairs professionals, embracing uncertainty isn't just about survival—it's about thriving and finding opportunities for growth. The strategies shared by these professionals are only a few of about 50 that provided a glimpse into the diversity of approaches used across the field to overcome challenges and foster an environment that champions both student and professional development.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay Voices from the Field host. Welcome to this bonus episode of student affairs voices from the field. As we've returned home from the annual conference, Chris and I are thrilled to share with you your voices. We were able to connect with several dozen of you throughout the conference experience to get your thoughts on the 3 conference foci areas and learn from your experiences. Across the next 3 weeks, we're going to be dropping bonus episodes on Tuesdays to share with you your thoughts on these three areas. The first area was navigating the opportunities of uncertainty. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: And the question we asked you was, what strategies have you employed to embrace uncertainty during your career, and how have they positively impacted your professional journey? Please enjoy. And if you were featured, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us. Acquanetta Pinkard [00:01:08]: I'm Acquanetta Pinkard. I am from Montgomery, Alabama. I work for Alabama State University, and I am a trio professional for 23 years. Wow. That's a loaded quest 1 is pivoting. Pivoting, making sure that I am, well versed in a lot of different areas. So I am equipped to pivot and not get stuck in any particular area. So making sure that I'm just able to move with the times is so and that's been very impactful and not allowing me to get in a position where I'm I'm stuck doing the same thing over and over again, so that I can be impactful to my students still and revel it. Taylor Cain [00:01:45]: I'm Taylor Cain. I work at the University of Georgia and serve as the director of engagement, leadership, and service there. I think with uncertainty, I try to exude patience, which for those who know me would probably be surprised by that. I wish I was more patient. But with uncertainty, I try to stay calm, rely on what I know to be true, and then try to be patient and trust the process, as cliche as that is, to see how things work out. Certainly, try and figure out how I can control things within my sphere of influence. But understanding I'm a part of a larger organization and to move something like that forward or trying to figure out what's gonna come next, no one can predict the future. So do the best with what you have, but just try and stay patient. Adrienne White [00:02:25]: I'm Dr. Adrienne White. I'm the director of student success coaching at George Mason University, and I use sheher pronouns. I actually think COVID was the most uncertain I think we've all ever been about our careers and the future and where we were all going with our lives. And something that I use with my team, that's when I started doing monthly 1 on 1 with every single person on my team. Because it gave them an opportunity to talk to me 1 on 1, talk to me about their concerns that they're having, and then gives me an opportunity to be able to alleviate some of those concerns or collectively come up with solutions to some of their concerns. And I think being as transparent as possible with the information that I've been given has really positively impacted my professional journey because I think it's forced me to be a more transparent leader, and it's also really made me think about how are the to the world events of today affecting my team and how we're supporting our students, which is our primary job. So it's really helped me rethink how I'm supporting my team through uncertain times. Susan Hua [00:03:31]: Hi. My name is Susan Hua. I use she/her pronouns, and I'm the director of diversity, equity, inclusion at the Community College of Aurora, which is an MSI HSI just outside of Denver, Colorado. The strategies that I've used to employ that I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career is really making sure that I have a community of folks around me who are able to help me unpack and debrief what I'm going through. I found that having a network of friends and colleagues who have been really close in my journey has been really helpful in terms of understanding the challenges I'm going through and also offering strategies and offering support in times of uncertainty. Aileen Hentz [00:04:07]: My name is Aileen Hentz. I'm at the University of Maryland as the program director of academic and student services. I have embraced it fully. Many times, even now, I'm I'm 20 years into my career, I have stuck my foot in my mouth. So one thing that I have learned to do is try my hardest to think before speaking and to go with the flow and to be a little bit more thoughtful, and I think that might be some of the strategies. Stephen Rice [00:04:41]: Steven Rice, director of the Office of Community Expectations at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, California. Some strategies that I use to embrace uncertainty, 1, to recognize uncertainty does happen all the time. And so you can't really prepare for it, but you can also be ready for it. And so I do that is looking at the positivity of it, making sure that I create networks with different resources on campus, so when those uncertainties come, figure out strategic stakeholders that can utilize to create a plan to really understand how to approach this uncertainty. But also going back and looking at how we learn and grow as individuals and as professionals, and how we are able to impact our university community positively by utilizing these different uncertainties and making the learning outcomes from it. Amy Adam [00:05:22]: Hi. This is Amy Adam, and I am from the University of Missouri in Columbia. I have been a student services support manager for 20 years, serving graduate students. One of the big things about uncertainty in my career, I've seen a lot in the past 2 decades. We went through some budget cuts after a campus wide protest that affected our relationships with legislators. Those of us that served students on campus really held fast to our values and our goal to support students. So, really, we just did a lot of debriefing amongst staff as well as really making sure to reach out to our students to make sure that they knew that they were supported and can ask for anything, and we would either support them or get them to the right resource if they needed it. Stephanie Cochrane [00:06:17]: Hi. I'm Stephanie Cochrane. I'm the director of student services at Northeastern University in Toronto. I'm here for NASPA for just the Sunday pre conference around graduate students. I think the main strategy is a growth mindset. Really in Toronto and especially Northeastern, we're growing at a really rapid pace and so we're keeping up with that. We also have a lot of students who are coming to the country for the first time, so international students. And having that growth mindset means that we can create innovative programming, try to try things for the first time, experiment a lot with our programming, see what works, what doesn't work, and continuously change and adjust as we go. Amy Hecht [00:06:57]: Hi. My name is Amy Hecht. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Florida State University. I've been there 7 years now. The strategies I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career has really been leaning on mentors using my network, really having conversations about what is happening, whether it's at my institution or across the country. I've also employed a leadership coach that's been really helpful in processing what's happening at work or what's happening in life, and that's really helped me navigate different moments throughout my career.  Shatera Davis [00:07:35]: Hi. My name is Shaterra Davis. I use she/her pronouns. I'm the director of student affairs at Northeastern in Seattle. Move with kindness and empathy has been one. I think it would be too simple to say treat people as how you want to be treated. I think it's more intentional than that, and so anytime I move careers, anytime that I support students, I always think about what would I have needed when I was a student, what did I get when I was a student, my why when I came into student affairs in higher education, and then giving myself grace and showing myself true kindness and empathy in those moments where it's tough is something that I just try to live by and move forward anytime, like, in my career and in my personal life. Andy Wiegert [00:08:17]: I'm Andy Wiegert, director of graduate student affairs, arts and sciences, Washington University in Saint Louis. Yeah, it's a good question. I think actually coming from a different industry before I came to higher ed, I've been in higher ed now for about 11 or 12 years. I was really used to a more hierarchical structure that had very clear trajectories, and I've really had to lean in to just living in the moment and sort of being present at what I'm doing now and just trusting that as I build a network that my own development will just happen in kind. Scott Peska [00:08:52]: Hi Scott Peska, Waubonsee Community College, Assistant Provost of Student Services. I think that the best part is trying to find ways to be resilient and one of the things that I learned early on was to always do things a little differently. So don't take the same route to work every day. Try to find new ways to just ensure that you're comfortable with change. And so we get into, like, a lot of ruts as human beings. And so we kinda get in the same patterns of behaviors. The more that we can kinda find ways to change it up so Tuesday, that's my secret. Tuesday is my day to do something different every week. It's a way to try to promote being flexible and that has helped me to process and be prepared for uncertainty when it comes up. Dilna Cama [00:09:31]: Dilna Cama. I am a director within student life at the Ohio State University, and I am part of the off campus and commuter knowledge community. So in terms of strategies that I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career, Definitely keeping eye on what the final end goal is. It can be very difficult if you use COVID as a perfect example. It can be easy to get lost in the day to day barriers and challenges, but really making sure to keep focused on that end goal and be laser focused on that has really been helpful in my professional journey. Sabina Kapoor [00:10:08]: My name is Sabina Kapoor, and I'm currently a a full time doctoral student with Capella University. I spent over 20 years in higher education as a staff within student affairs, student success, and academic affairs. So as I've progressed in my career, I've focused more on staff so that they can better serve students. I wanna go in deep with that, so that's why I'm pursuing the doctorate in IO Psychology because I wanna look at the relationship between the organization and the employee. There was a I guess you could you know, how we have midlife crisis. I had a kind of midlife crisis in my career, and so it was like I hit a ceiling and just really couldn't go further. So I had been wanting to pursue my PhD, and I knew that that would help me go further. So that's what I did. And so I've been on that journey now for a few years. It's been rough, but I just keep thinking of the end goal. And also, in this time, while I'm not working full time, but I'm still staying connected in higher ed in different ways. So I'm a member of NASPA, and so a member as a student, so I'm paying out of pocket and it's a little cheaper than being a full time staff. I'm also a member of Coupa, which is basically HR in in university and colleges, and, membership is cheap to free, I think. And so it's pretty I I think as a doctoral student, I have a membership for free. And so the thing is that I'm trying to keep connections and stay involved in organizations so that I know what, you know, basically what national trends are, what are best practices, especially since the pandemic. That really changed a lot of how we view things. Carlie Weaver [00:11:48]: Hello. I am Carlie Weaver with Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I'm a programs coordinator for the student activities in Union office. To have a very flexible mindset and being open to change and being able to be flexible when things change at the last minute. Roxanne Wright Watson [00:12:08]: Hi. My name is Roxanne Wright Watson. I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Pennsylvania, and I'm happy to be here. So So I think most importantly for me, I am student centered. So in my career, I'm always wanting to do new things with my students in my in the classroom, faculty. So I wanna do new things in the classroom to help my students in more than just academically, but more so to help them in the world in their whole life in general. So I think that's an important thing, an important factor there for me. Carla Ortega Santori [00:12:48]: My name is Carla Ortega Santori. I work at Rice University. I am the strategic initiatives manager at the Door Institute For New Leaders at Rice University, and my job is really about helping students elevate their leadership capacity and to also elevate the capacity of all campuses to do really great leader developments in education. So I would say that most of my jobs have been really ambiguous, like, they start off as something, then they turn into this other great thing. I guess I've always been more comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty, so I guess knowing that it's not something permanent helps to sort of adapt and thinking of different avenues to accomplish one thing is also helpful when when you think about accomplishing a goal. Rachael Amaro [00:13:42]: I'm Rachel Amaro. I'm the admissions and academic advisor for the Department of Educational Leadership within the College of Education at Cal State Fullerton. I think that one of the main things has been reminding myself that I am one person and knowing what is in my control and what is not in my control. I think that's really hard in the profession in general. I think we all mostly are helpers, centered and ready for what my students need. And so I think that I can be re centered and ready for what my students need. And so I think that it's really helped me have an understanding of what it is I want to give to what I do and what I wanna get from what I do. I think that, again, the big takeaway for most people these days is what do I value about my time that's mine? And I think that I try to sort of encourage new staff members that I work with in this because I think a lot of them come in, again, wanting to go go go, which is great, but I also have to remind them, like, hey, like, you know, you have vacation days for a reason if you need it. And I feel like that's just something that's been really helpful to me to feel a little more like I have some balance to myself, and then it lends it to the work that I do. Christine Wilson [00:16:23]: I'm Christine Wilson. I am in student affairs at UCLA. I have two roles. 1 is as the executive director for academic partnerships and the other is the program director for our masters in student affairs program. There's been a tremendous amount of uncertainty because of the pandemic, but I think everyone has uncertainty in their career because you don't know what's next or how that's gonna happen. And my strategy has been to embrace uncertainty because if you don't, you'll be unhappy and to take opportunities that come up in order to grow and learn more about how the university works, not just student affairs, but how everything works together. And through taking on things I've been asked to do, I've sometimes been incredibly busy, but it has helped me be much more effective because I have worked in so many different areas of student affairs just temporarily leading a unit or being involved in a task force. Olivia Ruggieri [00:17:21]: Hi there. My name is Olivia Ruggieri. I'm the associate director of administration operations for Northeastern University Seattle campus. I grew up in Pennsylvania, went to 2013, but I've been working for the university since 2018. I would say just tapping into the network of professionals around me, having other folks review my work, and if I'm nervous about something, making sure that I'm not the only person, like, putting that message out into the world. And a lot of that came into place in during COVID 19 where we to be really clear with our messaging. Of course, there's a lot of uncertainty, and we wanted to make sure that our students got the right information the first time. Because things were changing so rapidly, we couldn't risk, like, confusion in the day to Christle Foster [00:18:11]: day. Hi. My name is Christle Foster, and I'm from Chesapeake College located on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in Wymeals. Working during the pandemic was definitely some uncertainty, especially when we had to switch from being face to face to online. And in my role as an executive director of Trio Programs, it was especially difficult to recruit students online because many of them became disengaged. So definitely, that helped me to learn how to be adaptive as well as how to be responsive to change because that was a lot of change very quickly. We got notice, like, a couple of days that we were shutting down and I had to switch gears and help my staff switch gears in that time of uncertainty. Nathalie Waite Brown [00:18:49]: My name is Nathalie Waite Brown. I am the assistant dean of students and director for graduate student life at Stevens Institute of Technology located in Hoboken, New Jersey. I think what I've used that it's been the most successful is pause and then practice. Being able to take a a moment just to stop and think about what isn't working and what I want to work, and then putting those things into practice, and that may mean reconnecting with my mentor. It may mean taking a class. It may be connecting with students, but really just taking a moment to pause and reflect to be able to move forward and put what I need into practice. Dae'lyn Do [00:19:27]: My name is Dae'lyn Do. I use sheher pronouns, and I am the associate director for the Women in Science and Engineering Residence program at the University of Michigan, and I am coming into the position of the WISA KC co chair. For me, personally, I feel like relying on my people to get me through kind of the when I have questions about things or come across challenges, I just reach out to my colleagues or my mentors and help process through things. I think all of us have to work together in this field to really rely on each other to try to get through those challenges together and utilize each other's experiences and knowledge and just keep sharing that with each other. Natalie DeRosa [00:20:09]: So my name is Natalie DeRosa, and I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Schnecksville, Pennsylvania. So I'll start by saying that I'm a young professional. I think the key is to keep calm, and I'm still learning, and that's why I'm here. That's why I'm at NASPA, is to learn how to do that and do it gracefully. Dan Volchek [00:20:38]: Dan Volchek, assistant dean of student success at Harvard Griffin Grad School of Arts and Sciences. In embracing uncertainty, I've looked at what other schools do and read publications about that and that has helped me manage the uncertainty that I faced during my career of which have been a number of pieces. But the biggest thing I think the strategy I've used is networking with people, utilizing my connections in NASPA to help me get through the uncertainty that I faced in my career and my professional journey. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:12]: Vaughn Calhoun, Seton Hall University, hehim. Yeah. I think for me, really, it's just pausing and making sure that you can understand the the context of of what's happened to the best of your abilities and knowing that things can change, and they probably will change, but also knowing that you can only control the controllable. And for me, it's attitude and effort. And it's one thing I always share with my staff is we can control what we can control. Those things we can't control, we shouldn't spend too much time thinking about it and just do what we can. Darlene Robinson [00:21:43]: My name is Darlene Robinson. I'm the RISE gen 1 director for Seton Hall University. Some of the strategies that I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career is more so looking inward, sitting with certain questions, ideas, and things that I, as a person, would like to have in a career, and just figuring out how that how what I have and what I need can impact those around me and best service students or coworkers that I come in contact with, and asking questions of those people as well to know what it is that they need and how I can provide it. Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:22:21]: Hello. My name is Miguel Angel Hernandez. I am the associate vice president and dean of students at San Francisco State University. I think one of the things that I do related to strategies is really ground myself and center myself in the idea and concept that a greater power is at work, that nothing whatever situation comes. I think the second piece that's important about that that brings me a lot of confidence is that I don't have to navigate uncertainty alone. Here at NASPA is a reminder that we are a part of an amazing professional association. Through relationship and thinking with partners and coming up with strategies or responses to the critical issues that are facing our profession today, I do believe that we are able to emerge better than we were yesterday. And so when I think about uncertainty, what brings me comfort is that I am only a text message, phone call, social media post away from an amazing network of thought partners, and that has guided me and continues to guide me. I think in terms of how this has positively impacted my professional journey is that it allows me not to feel like I have to know everything or be over prepared or have every aspect of a job description or an invitation under my belt because again, we are not in this alone. Together, we thrive. David Chao [00:23:47]: Hello. My name is David Chow. My pronouns are hehim. I serve as the director of IT for student affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, and I'm also the chair of the technology knowledge community. I think I spent a lot of time trying to plan ahead and anticipate. I think planning, while you can't plan for everything, it can certainly help and to help minimize variability whenever possible. It's just helped to mitigate that. But it's not always easy. And, unfortunately, as we just came off the pandemic, there are times when we just don't have a plan and we have to go with it, but I think planning in general still builds up a habit that is helpful even in times of uncertainty. Melinda Stoops [00:24:20]: Hi. I am Melinda Stoops. I serve as the associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. In looking at my career in student affairs, which has been over 20 years at this point, there have certainly been many points of uncertainty. And even though I've employed different strategies at different points in times and in different situations, I really think the one constant point for me has really been connecting with others and opening up, even if just to one person, about something I'm dealing with where I feel uncertain. There's nothing better than having someone listen to you and support you, and I so much value my network both within student affairs and outside of student affairs. And I feel like regardless of the situation, that's always been something really helpful for me is to feel like someone's there supporting me even if they don't have the answers per se, but that I just have someone who is in my corner and cheering me on. And sometimes they provide great guidance as well. Derek Grubb [00:25:20]: Derek Grubb, Dean of Enrollment Management for Red Rocks Community College in Colorado. Biggest strategy I really just employ is strength in the knowledge of others. I've always believed building a team that has unique strengths, can lean on each other, and so you're able to be more agile and reflecting and promoting those strengths in each person. Matt Imboden [00:25:41]: My name is Matt Imboden. I use the hehim pronouns. I serve as the chief student services officer in the School of Business at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. And, for the past few years, I've also been chairing the administrators and graduate and professional student services knowledge community for NASPA. So I think I've found that during times of uncertainty, it's taken me a few knee scrapes along the way. But I think I've learned that at that time is kinda when your motivating values are kinda the clearest, and they sort of help to clarify things for you, renew your focus. And so during times of uncertainty or stress or strain, as I kinda come back to the things that one, got me engaged in the work I do in the 1st place. I mean, that, like, truly motivate you without kinda being distracted by all the tasks and initiatives and ideas that tend to pile up, but kind of focus on our students, what excites us about working for and with them, but then also increasingly to try to be a good leader for other staff and faculty colleagues to make a difference at our institutions. Evette Castillo Clark [00:26:39]: Evette Castillo Clark, vice president for student life and dean of students at Lewis and Clark College, Portland, Oregon. I employ a strategy of being an iterative thinker. So sometimes what that means is working with your team, working with your staff to pilot things or think through things and outcomes or problems to a solution, throw it on the wall, see if it works, and it's okay if there's mistakes or if it's okay if it didn't work. You regroup, and you think through and toy through the uncertainty and the problem again. So I think one of the soft skills that it is really becoming the skills is really being flexible with your thinking, being understanding that sometimes that first go around, it's not gonna work, but you retool and you regroup and you go at it again, and you might actually have to convene different stakeholders to actually help you with the problem to address the uncertainty again. Madeline Frisk [00:27:33]: Hello. My name is Madeline Frisk. I work at Portland State University. I'm the coordinator of student government relations and advisor to Greek life. So I work with our student government, all of the committees and groups within that, as well as 4 strong and mighty small Greek life groups as well. I would say being a retired navy brat, navigating uncertainty was kinda a part of the career, we'll say. Navigating, moving every 3 years, I got pretty used to adapting, being the new kid, and I think that served me well now in the student affairs profession with all the ups and downs we can navigate with our career. Gene Zdziarski [00:28:08]: This is Gene Zdziarski. I'm vice president for student affairs at DePaul University. I think the biggest thing when there's times of uncertainty and questioning is you try to do your homework, you try to learn more about the situation, and I think what I found to be most helpful is utilizing my professional network, reaching out to my colleagues in the profession, getting their perspective, hearing what they've thought. This is clearly one of the places that, at least for me, NASPA has served as my professional home, and the people that I interact are really that support network that I use throughout my career to help guide me and make decisions not only about what's happening on my campus and how to better serve students, but also, how I might look at next steps or where my professional journey is going to go. Lyza Liriano [00:28:54]: Hello. My name is Lyza Liriano. I currently serve as an area coordinator at DePaul University in Housing and Residence Life. Originally, I am from Brooklyn, New York. I think that as there has been a lot of uncertainty within higher ed, especially post pandemic, I remember being a grad student not knowing if the program would continue in terms of my grad assistantship in housing and being very nervous about, is this the career that I wanna go to, even though it was something that I really love. I think what I started doing then and what I continue to do now is really just tapping in on my network, and really just having those people that I can go to to provide me with hope. So a lot of my old directors, old supervisors, and assistant directors have been really just a sounding board for me, providing words of encouragement and really just also finding people outside of higher education that I can just lean on when I need someone to talk work with that don't necessarily know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about work. Jackie Cetera [00:29:54]: Jackie Cetera. I use sheher pronouns, and I serve as the director of residential education at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. I would say that mentoring has been really impactful for me. Having different mentors throughout my career to help me through whatever my day to day or just life throws my way has really helped me. For individuals to provide the time and the space to talk through situations has really had a positive impact on me and has gotten me heavily Lisa Landreman [00:30:36]: My name is Lisa Landreman. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. So I would say how I've prepared myself and established for uncertainty, maintaining flexibility and humility, I think I would start with and making sure that I'm able to be calm, cool, collected, that I am taking care of my own well-being. It starts there. And so having good balance, having good support, having my network in place for when things get hard. So when I'm can be centered and prepared, I'm better able to handle the uncertainty and the anxiousness and the crisis that comes. I think it has helped me be a stronger leader when I can model calmness and that I am not rattled with the ebb and flow of whether it's the world or our campus or student issues. I think being well read and well versed in issues in the field, so professional conferences, professional connections, institutes, networks has really helped me stay grounded in new ideas, creative solutions, best practice, collaboration. Lisa Landreman [00:31:42]: And so I feel like I have kept my toolkit and my skills honed. You know, that isn't just I get my master's degree and get my PhD and I'm done. That it is I am constantly looking for where do I need to learn more and who could I learn it from or where could I learn that. So I feel like even if I don't know something in the moment, I know who I could connect with, where to go, who might have it, what resource do I need to brush up on. I think both those personal qualities of being okay with me and then being well versed, but then also knowing that it's okay that we don't know in the instant how to respond, that to take a moment to find the answer, to listen to solutions. Also, I would say hiring a really strong team around me and then modeling for them to be that we are a learning organization, so so that we're gonna learn together, that we create opportunities in our weekly meetings or in our retreats and things, that we are I am modeling that kind of learning. We read articles together. We present to one another that we share learnings on a regular basis. And so that has served me to both cultivate stronger professionals in my organization, also motivation and enthusiasm about learning new things, and also just it has allowed us to be a team in these uncertain times. Right? That we can work together, that we might make some mistakes along the way, but we can quickly recover because we're a learning organization. Jackie Yun [00:33:03]: Hi. I'm Jackie Yun. I take the she series, and I serve as the executive director of the Harvard Griffin GSAS Student Center. I think that sometimes with uncertainty comes opportunity, and so some of the pivots in my career have actually turned out to be excellent silver linings and opportunities to specialize or to pivot, go to a different type of institution, work with different type of student, and so I've tried to see those as opportunities to learn. I think creating a learning mindset and just seeing everything as an opportunity to expand what we know keeps it interesting too. Leanna Fenneberg [00:33:37]: Hello. This is Leanna Feneberg. I'm the incoming chief student affairs officer at Duquesne University. I have had the experience of positions being eliminated and having to start a national job search and relocate with my family. And while those have been troubling times, I see them as wonderful opportunities to reflect on who I am and what I value and what I want in my next position and have always appreciated when one door closes, another one opens and seeing the opportunities that lie ahead. Jake Murphy [00:34:10]: Jake Murphy, I'm the director of prospective students services at OSU Institute of Technology, and I am over all recruitment and retention efforts at the university. So probably the biggest thing that I have put in place has been growth mindset. That's been a big one to be able to make sure that I am doing the best that I can and make sure that my team is in top form but also making sure that they look towards their professional goals because it is for recruitment, it's a stepping stone for a lot of people. Larry Pakowski [00:34:39]: Larry Pakolski. I'm the vice president for student engagement, inclusion, and success at Aims Community College in Greeley, Colorado. I think the biggest thing is looking at kind of what students need and and their voice in the equation, and then letting that be the north star, like students first always. And then we get into the budget and what's possible and how soon can we do that by really kind of keeping that north star of students first. Jillaine Zenkelberger [00:35:02]: Hi. I'm Dr. Jillaine Zenkelberger. I am the program coordinator over at Graduate Student Life at the University of Notre Dame. My professional career has been, even though somewhat short still has been kinda all over the place. I started as a social worker in foster care and now I'm here in grad services and I think uncertainty is just for me I utilize my uncertainty in my career path. I try to frame it as a benefit because I have a really diverse background with social work in my background, psychology, and really utilizing these skills to serve the community that I'm in now which is grad students. Also, my own journey as a grad student has really affected the way I work and how I interact with my students. Kristen Merchant [00:35:48]: Hi, everyone. I'm Kristen Merchant. I am from Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I am the associate director of the Union and Student Activities Office there and also the director of our lead programs. Some strategies that I have employed to embrace uncertainty is I always like to come to everything with a plan. I always say plan for anything that could possibly happen, but then also being flexible enough to pivot for my Friends fans and be able to kind of adjust to the various situations. Joe Lizza [00:36:18]: My name is Dr. Joe Lizza. I'm the director of the Chamberlain Student Center and Campus Activities at Rowan University in New Jersey. I think early on, I tried to kinda shape some of the work that I do in really in my interests. So I really find stuff that I have true interest and then try to kinda shape that position or shape that professional development opportunity to kinda really be 100% fully engaged. And I've also always been open to opportunity even when it maybe there was uncertainty. So in the idea of not knowing what possibly I might do or my next step, I always kind of rose to the idea that, hey, let me try this new opportunity out. What's the worst that could happen? And it's ultimately kinda worked out for me. Joshua Allred [00:37:03]: My name is Joshua Allred. I work at Louisiana State University in the College of Agriculture as their manager of student services. I think when I think about uncertainty, I try to find in any job that I apply for or when I choose to stay where I'm at. Most recently, it's all been about the people that I work with. And so if I have strong leadership and I feel really comfortable with that leadership, that uncertainty feels a little bit more easy to navigate because I feel a lot of strength in that leadership. Kelley O'Neal [00:37:30]: Hello. Kelley O'Neal. I am at Texas A&M University, and I am the executive director of the Marylin Kent Burns Student Success Center. So one of the things I continue to do is try to be innovative and think what's next? What more can I do to support students and support student success? I don't wanna come in and do the same programs over and over again. I want to do my best to collaborate, whether it's with my partners in academic affairs or my partners in student affairs. But whenever uncertainty comes, then that says, how do I make sure that students are successful? Because in uncertainty, they wanna make sure that what you're doing is supporting student success. So that's what I do. Kelley O'Neal [00:38:19]: I would say recently, the strategies that I've employed is really falling to networking and mentorship. In early career, I don't think I valued those two pieces as much as I do in my later stages of my career, and finding mentors that can help me shape my career trajectory for the last part of my career, and taking advantage of things like the Institute For Aspiring VP's here at NASPA, as well as other maybe smaller regional conferences and conferences within the graduate school community to help create that next plan for my career, but definitely mentoring and networking. Katie Caponera [00:39:03]: I'm Katie Caponera, director of student life at Harvard Divinity School. I think the biggest approach to approaching uncertainty has just been to remain open to new ideas and new possibilities and never get too attached or set into what's traditional or what's always this is how we've always done it. That can be a challenge at a place that is as old and has as much history as Harvard and one of its affiliates, But being one of the smaller schools at Harvard, we've we have the ability to try some new approaches and some new directions with a little bit more fluidity given that we're kind of in the corner and small, but just not not being precious about how things have been done in the past, but really engaging, you know, what ideas the students are bringing to us because they're the best indicators of what they need on campus. Kathy Dilks [00:39:58]: My name is Kathy Dilks, and I am the director of graduate student and post doctoral affairs at the Icahn School of Medicine, the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences. I think the strategy that I always employ is staying connected with my colleagues and being open and honest with my peers. I rely on the people around me to help me navigate certain waters and certain uncertainties, and I rely on other people to help me gain valuable insight. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:40:30]: Julie Payne Kirchmeier, vice president for student success for the University of Indiana University. It's not really a system. It's a multi campus university, but we can say Indiana University System if that's easier for folks to kind of place the role. When I think about strategies employed to embrace uncertainty, you know, this may sound a little bit trite, maybe not. I just constantly important because, you know, there are elements of ethics and integrity that are woven into the how, but there are multiple ways to get there. And so when it feels uncertain or it feels strange, if I can go back to what it is at my core or as an organization, the mission or the purpose, I think it really helps to ground you and then you can move forward through that uncertainty. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:17]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:58]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

**Breaking Ground as a First-Generation Trailblazer**  In this episode of SA Voices From The Field Dr. Jill Creighton had the chance to speak with Alejandra Campoverdi, a formidable force advocating for women's health and an inspiration for many first-generation college students. Her memoir, 'First Gen: A Memoir,' beautifully encapsulates the emotional complexities that accompany the breaking of generational barriers, a theme that resonates deeply with many of our podcast's listeners. Alejandra's narrative is both personal and universal, detailing her own struggle with panic attacks and other challenges as she navigated the social ladders of legacy-based institutions. Her experience in the White House, and the pivotal role mentors played in her journey, offers a powerful testament to the lasting impact of educators and advocates across different walks of life. **Legacy and the Emotional Rhyme of Generations** Alejandra poetically introduces the concept of 'generational rhyming,' drawing lines between the past and present experiences. By reflecting on the courage of women in her family—those who confidently stepped away from chaotic relationships while carrying the burden of pregnancy—Alejandra emphasizes the inheritance of resilience and the personal choice to either continue or modify the legacy we carry forward. **The Cultural Tapestry of Health and Sacrifice** This episode also delves into Alejandra's advocacy for women's health, illustrating the interweaving of cultural expectations and individual wellness. Her frank discussion on BRCA mutation and confronting a familial pattern of breast cancer underscores the critical necessity of breaking cycles, not only socially and economically but also health-wise. **Systemic Issues and the Imposter Experience** Alejandra's views on 'imposter syndrome' are particularly enlightening, challenging the notion that it stems solely from personal insecurity rather than also being rooted in systemic disparities. This perspective invites a broader conversation on the structural changes needed to support and validate the experiences of those breaking new ground. **Connecting with Alejandra Campoverdi** Listeners can reach out to Alejandra Campoverdi via her DMs on Instagram, LinkedIn, or her website. Her gracious acknowledgment of her mentors, including her former White House boss, and her thanks to the NASPA family and Dina from the First Gen Center, that manifests an ecosystem of support that many 'firsts' heavily rely on.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back essay voices. It was amazing to run into so many of you at the annual conference, and thank you again for continuing to listen to us. Today, we're gonna be releasing the first of several annual conference episodes, and we were thrilled to sit down with the closing keynote speaker, Alejandra Campaverdi. Alejandra is a nationally recognized women's health advocate, best selling author, founder, producer, and former White House aide to President Obama. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: Alejandra's memoir, First Gen: A Memoir, examines the often unacknowledged emotional tolls of being a trailblazer. A national bestseller, 1st Gen is the winner of the California Independent Booksellers Alliance Golden Poppy Martin Cruz Smith Award and long listed for the outstanding works of literature award for the 1st year experience. 1st Gen is also the 2024 Opportunity Matters book club selection for the Council For Opportunity in Education, a national book club for 1st generation and low income students at colleges and universities across the country. Previously, Alejandra served in the Obama White House as the 1st White House deputy director of Hispanic Media. She produced and appeared in the groundbreaking PBS documentary, Inheritance, and founded the Latinos and BRCA Awareness Initiative in partnership with Penn Medicine's Master Center for BRCA. Alejandra holds a master in public policy from Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government and graduated cum laude from USC. She currently serves on the boards of Harvard's Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy, and the California Community Foundation. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:50]: We were able to have this one live in person, so you may notice some slight audio differences in quality. Please enjoy and we're also going to be bringing you couple more bonus episodes throughout the next couple of weeks. Alejandra, welcome to SA Voices. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:03]: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:05]: I am really excited to get to know you a little bit and we really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to talk to SA Voices here in Seattle. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:12]: I know. It's fun to be in Seattle. Right? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:13]: Is this your first time? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:14]: No. I was actually here a few weeks ago for another conference, but I had so much fun eating my way through the city. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:20]: Oh, what was your favorite thing? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:22]: That was a lot. The crumpets over at the Pike Place Market, incredible. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: Crumpets. Okay. That's a new one. Most of my friends say Top Pot Donuts is their their jam or, I haven't been to the crumpet spot. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:35]: This is my hometown so it's always fun for me to see people discover it through fresh eyes. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:39]: Nice. Well, you have to give us your tips then. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:42]: Really, it's just don't eat downtown. I think it's my biggest tip. Most of my friends and family enjoy restaurants kind of more out in the community. But we are glad to have you here as our closing keynote speaker for NASPA 2024 here in Seattle. On our theme of transitions, you were just an excellent guest to have to talk about all the transitions you've gone through in your life. Your book right now is 1st Gen, a memoir, and that has been just a really beautiful read. I've been able to take a look at least the first couple of chapters and and really kind of get to know you through that lens. But I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about your journey as you've written about it. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:03:17]: Well, thank you for reading it, Amy. I feel really honored to be invited to speak at NASPA. As I say in the book, the reason why I felt compelled to write it really was because, you know, as someone who was a Pell Grant recipient myself and grew up in a lot of pipeline programs and nonprofits, when I would go and speak to young people, especially students even before this book was even an idea in my mind, I noticed that there seemed to be a lot kind of hanging in the air. Some mixed emotions and almost like looks on folks' faces that I recognize on my own face at these kind of transitional achievement moments that should kind of be 1 dimensional but kind of weren't. And as I noticed that, I started kind of changing the way that I would speak and the kinds of stories I would share. And the more vulnerable I was about how it was harder than many times we're led on to believe in inspirational speeches, really helped crystallize for me how much of not only my own experience but a lot of our experiences have some shame around them that there are conflicting emotions that we don't always share even though they're so completely widespread. And a lot of it namely about the emotional toll of social mobility and the American dream as it's been presented to us. And, you know, in the book, I really talk about how it's for first and only. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:04:45]: I call us first and only because it isn't just this gatekeeper definition of who has a right to kinda like that first gen experience. I understand that in in academia and in different institutions, you need to have a definition of who qualifies and doesn't qualify. But for this emotional experience in the book, it's about being as inclusive as possible because this experience of cycle breaking and that emotional toll transcends race and gender and and so many different experiences. So that was a lens that I discussed this with, and I really use my own story growing up, you know, as the daughter of a single mom who had immigrated from Mexico a few years before I was born to kind of be the companion of walking through a lot of these different dynamics. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:33]: You talk about generational rhyming in your book as part of that transition story. Can you talk to us about what you mean by that? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:05:39]: Well, as a part of this book, I named something called the trailblazer tool. And I don't name that from a position of authority as someone who is a trauma specialist or an academic or a specialist in psychology or so on. The reason why I do that is because as I mentioned, you can't heal from that which you don't name. Mhmm. And so how do we create space for this holistic view that doesn't only include imposter syndrome but includes the way that being a cycle breaker first and only moves throughout our entire life even before we get to school and for many, many years after. You know, once by the time you're a 1st gen student, you've been 1st gen already many times over and you'll continue to be 1st gen. And so to that point, how is it that this even began pre birth? When you're thinking about generational inheritance and emotional inheritances, when you're looking for those answers, they say history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:06:35]: Well, what is the rhyme that is coming from our family? And they're not just negative. Many are positive. It's not just about generational trauma. It's about emotional inheritances and those I call them invisible inheritances. Many times they're intertwined. Many times, you know, you're looking at the fact in my instance, I have a great grandmother and a mother who both left very chaotic borderline abusive relationships while they were pregnant. Mhmm. Now that's not an inheritance that I would wanna continue. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:07:06]: Yet if you say it a little differently, I have 2 women in my family that left these relationships while they were pregnant. I mean, think of the strength and fortitude it takes to do something like that. So, I mean, I'm proud to be a a beneficiary of that inheritance. And then the third part is the inheritances that we choose to perpetuate as our own future ancestors right now. You know, every day, we have a choice to become a better ancestor. Mhmm. So those are the rhymes that not only we're coming into these lives with, but the rhymes that we're choosing to continue and be intentional about and maybe tweak a little bit. That intentionality is a lot of the end game because I don't have all the answers and this book doesn't pretend like it has all the answers. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:07:51]: But it's about validating and acknowledging a lot of what as first and only is we almost feel like we don't know have the privilege too many times. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:58]: I'm wondering if you can talk to us a bit about being a first generation student who entered collegiate spaces that are really legacy based institutions where maybe you're entering with classmates who have multiple generations of people who went to those institutions who know how they work, who understand the nuance and the subtleties of social culture and enter with a lot more social capital on how to engage in those worlds and how you found yourself evolving into those spaces and ultimately thriving in them. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:08:25]: Well, just how Invisible Inheritance is kind of where we start, you know, a couple steps forward is what I call chutes and social ladders. And I don't know if you remember the board game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chutes and Ladders. And the reason why I named it that was because that's what it kind of felt like to me. You know, you land on the right spot. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:08:44]: You do everything just right and you shoot into this different social class, into this different just like societal plane that feels so foreign, yet if you've messed up, God forbid don't do it just perfectly, you can backslide completely out of it. Right? Yeah. Without warning sometimes. Absolutely. And it feels really precarious. And to me, that made sense to me as a way to look at it. In the book, I talk about the familial chaos that I was in, this kind of pressure cooker, as well as in the romantic relationship that I highlight in the book. That's also something else that was, you know, leading to a lot of personal angst. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:09:25]: Mhmm. Yet the way that I was dealing with that was in a lot of ways of trying to kind of stabilize and have some semblance of control in my life by overachieving. Mhmm. You know, how that overachieving and sometimes that perfectionism can be as well as ambition, but can also be a coping mechanism for trauma. Right? And so I was making myself a really good college applicant at the same time as I was really struggling with a lot of issues around this kind of dynamics in my home and my relationships. So by the time I get to USC, it was one blurry summer apart from a very different kind of cultural experience where if anything, I was teased for, quote, acting white because I would get good grades. But then you get to college, and I remember by then, I was already struggling very much with panic attacks and panic disorder, and I had my mom be on campus with me. I grew up under 20 miles from USC's campus but had never visited. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:10:27]: You know, you don't visit colleges. Who does that? Like, what is that? So my mom is there with me pushing this running stroller around with my little sister, and I just didn't want her to be out of my sight because I felt so much pressure. Like, a lot of these students I know. I hear from them. I'm traveling around the country right now talking to them. So much pressure that not only did I have to do this to kind of this was my chance to, you know, break that cycle of poverty, but this was also my chance to help my mom, to help my family. You know, it was this kinda like double layer of stress. And my mom went to the parent orientation and I'm sitting there and feeling that, and all of a sudden, my ears start ringing. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:11:05]: Everything starts getting spinny, and I run out of Boulevard Auditorium in USC and pass out in the middle of campus. So when I came to, somebody had gone to get my mom, and we went to the health center, and then they gave me a prescription and, you know, sent me on my way. And I remember sitting on a bench with her and thinking, oh my god. Am I gonna be able to do this? I worked so hard to be able to get there, and it felt like everything was within grasp that I had dreamed of, that we had dreamed of. But I didn't know if I could physically do it because all of these experiences and these emotional experiences that we're talking about had started catching up with me. Mhmm. You know, and that's that's not something that's unique to me. Right? Because there's a saying I point to in the book, when you're skating over thin ice, your speed is your safety. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:11:52]: Mhmm. And many times that's what it feels like when you're cycle breaking and you're kind of trying to adjust to these new kinda stratosphere jumps, you don't have time to really process what's happening. You're just kind of surviving and morphing and adapting however you can. And there was a lot that was coming up for me at that time. I was fortunate that, you know, my mom was able to help me kind of navigate a little bit but in a lot of ways I ended up experiencing a whole another big jump that was difficult to recalibrate. At the time, my mom, not knowing any better, encouraged me to get involved with the Greek system. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:30]: Okay. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:12:30]: And we can imagine at that time, USC in the late nineties, early 2000, you know, that was like taking me to the most extreme example of kind of world jumping and recalibrating and understanding what that meant for my Latinidad and how it expressed itself on campus. How I was able to show up and fit into a system that had experiences that were beyond my comprehension and how it is that I was able to do that and manage all that while at the same time trying to keep up with grades. And it it was a lot. And I go into this a lot deeper in the book about what that felt like, but I definitely don't. And I'm not saying now nor do I say in the book that I figured it all out. Mhmm. The point was that I was white knuckling it. The point was that I was surviving in that space in those spaces as best I could, but not really understanding a lot of the dynamics that they weren't personal to me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:32]: Like many women of color who are leading in new spaces, you've had transitions in this academic space, you've had transitions with health, and you've had transitions in career. So I wanna talk a little bit about your transitions in health because you're well known as a women's health advocate. When you were going through your own health transitions, how did you balance that with everything else that was going on in the world? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:13:53]: Well, I didn't know that I because I'm a BRCA mutation carrier, hereditary cancer in my family, but I didn't know that until I was in my thirties. So what I did know was that women in my family tended to all get breast cancer. And until my mom's generation, they would pass away from breast cancer. So it was especially when my mom was diagnosed and I was in my early twenties, that was a really pivotal time as far as just graduating from school and trying to figure out, I call it the lonely hustle, how to kind of go after my dreams without any safety net. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:28]: Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:14:28]: When my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer, I realized I didn't really have the privilege to do that. I had a little sister that I assumed I was gonna be a single mom too. And so I went home to help take care of my mom during that time and, you know, slept on the air mattress in her living room. And as far as I was concerned, that was it. Your parents, a lot of times, you feel like they sacrifice so much for you to have these opportunities and that feels especially in the dynamics and the cultural dynamics in a lot of our communities that that's a collectivist mindset about what it means when you drop everything to be able to take care of the family unit. And so I didn't realize back then that that was something that I was also going to have to face. Mhmm. But breast cancer has been an ongoing drumbeat throughout my entire life. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:15:17]: You know, I don't go into my own journey with breast cancer in this book because this book ends before that happens. But, you know, when you're thinking about cycle breaking even with our own bodies, you know, how it is we disrupt these cycles in our families and the choice that I made to have preventative surgery at the time, not knowing that when it was after the fact of the surgery, we would discover in retrospect that actually I did have an active breast cancer already developing, which validated that choice. But all that to say is our health is another way that we're able to try to break some of these cycles. And I always say, you know, like one of the the biggest cycles that we can break and we don't always think about is to give ourselves the privilege of rest and balance and that kind of wellness on every different level because we can break cycles of poverty. We can be the first to go to college. We can be the first to have a job or buy a house or so on. But unless we do some of this inner work, one of the biggest cycles that can lead to illness in our body but for sure in our minds and our emotional health is not gonna get broken.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:32]: When you think about cycle break in your own life, what advice do you give to others on how they can also engage in that work? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:16:36]: I think that the first step is to be conscious of it, to acknowledge it. And that's the energy that this book is written in for us to know ourselves and for us to know each other and for us to know that we're not alone in these experiences because a lot of it feels so isolating and a lot of it feels just really personal. And if I I've learned anything I mean, I've been to dozens of colleges now across the country. I've been really blessed to speak to so many educators as well. And it's the same experience of nodding everywhere that I go. Mhmm. Nodding in tears and acknowledgement. And sometimes people will raise their hands and I remember I was speaking in Miami, and this gentleman raised his hand. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:17:17]: He said, how do you deal with, like, the loneliness? And he started crying. And I looked out at the crowd, and I and I tell you, there were so many people crying. And I told them, I said, well, take a look around. Do you feel alone? Look at all these people that that are feeling the same thing you're feeling. And that's what the energy that this book is hopefully calling us to, which is to take a look around and acknowledge all the nodding heads. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:45]: I think one of the most powerful things you do in this book is give voice to a common experience that a lot of people are afraid to talk about or afraid to say out loud because we live in a capitalist society. We're fearful of being perceived as, you know, not always out in front of things sometimes. So I really appreciate that you're naming a lot of this, and it's clearly resonating with audiences around the country, and I'm sure will be very resonant for our NASPA members here, especially for our professionals who are 1st and onlys or are there 1st gen in their family to attain a university degree and then likely an advanced degree, and now we're all working in this field where a lot of people don't really understand our work. It's kind of an ongoing joke in student affairs that even our own parents don't understand what we do on a daily basis. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:18:26]: And I write about that in the book that that's a loneliness inducing experience as as well that I write about when you go home. And I mean, I would come home from the White House and I wouldn't get questions about my work, and that's at a neutral level. Then there's the hands of the students where they raise their hands and say, I'm dissuaded from doing these things. They're told, like, why are you doing this? Why don't you get a more job where you make more money? Why would you study abroad? That's a waste of your time. Almost kind of getting this negative messaging. But to your point, that's why I feel so honored to be speaking here at NASPA because on so many different levels, a, you guys are the ones on the ground. You guys are the ones on the ground with these students every day working so hard and doing so much to support the leaders of the future. And also because I see very clearly how many of the educators I'm speaking to are literally these students who also had the same experience. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:19:23]: You know, we get called to the work that we do, whether it's writing books or being an educator because of something usually very personal. We're called to something because of the empathy many times that we have for experiences. And like I said earlier, the book is written not just about that part of the student experience. There's many many chapters about what happens when you're on the other side of the sausage maker, which is all of us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:49]: Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:19:50]: And you're gonna spit out the other side and you're like, okay, woah, what happened? Because there is a point where you're the arc of the first gen experience kind of concludes. That doesn't mean that you don't have ambitions for the future and you don't have all these other things you wanna accomplish, but that initial kind of ascension into breaking out of certain cycles, same things that originally was driving me? Are they the same things or have they shifted? And if they've shifted, then how is it that I show up differently? You also name feelings of imposter syndrome in Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:31]: the book, especially when you're first invited into the White House spaces and during your process of getting top secret security clearance and all of those things. How did you work through those feelings of imposter syndrome even though you're sitting in some of the most powerful spaces in the world at that point in time and knowing that so many of our listeners are facing impostor syndrome in their own careers even though, you know, we're all qualified to be in the spaces we're in? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:20:53]: Well, one of the things that I really make a point to highlight in the book is I actually really have a problem with the idea of impostor syndrome as it was presented to me. I'll make it personal, as I've seen it be presented also in general, is the idea that it really is about this crisis of confidence singularly and not about the second part of it, the other side of the coin, which is no matter how confident we are, how it is that the way that we show up or we're received in these spaces and in these kind of constructs that is reflected back to us sometimes that we don't belong in ways that are subtle and not so subtle at times. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:29]: I think imposter syndrome syndrome's a system issue personally. Right? It's 2 ways. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:21:34]: Exactly. I mean, it's 2 ways. We we still have to acknowledge our contributions and show up in that space and there's systemic issues at play too. And so that's the lens through which I talk about it at that time at the White House and not just at the White House, but that nuance, I think, is helpful because I know when I used to blame myself for feeling a lack of confidence, it's not fair on top of everything else. It's also we're pointing the arrow directly back at students to just feel more confident and not acknowledging the dynamics with which they're operating. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:14]: Is there anything else you want our NASPA membership to hear from you today? Just that Alejandra Campoverdi [00:22:18]: I had several inflection points that I talk about in the book that really had to do with either an educator or a mentor, someone in a position of power saying something, doing something that completely changed my life. And I wasn't someone who had mentors that would follow my life for decades. You know, it was these angels that sometimes would step in and sometimes would derail, you know. Sometimes people help you in ways that are positive and negative to kinda get you back on track. Mhmm. But the point is that these people in my life and certain things they said and didn't encourage me to do changed everything. And so I like I said, my message is gratitude to this community for being the in the spaces between the bullet points because that's what I call it in the book. That's what the book is. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:23:08]: I wanted to write something that didn't just look at the bullet points on my resume or in my bio the same way that all of us have our schools and our achievements and our jobs, but that's not where the real story lies. It's really in the spaces between those bullet points and that's where you guys are. That's where the whole story goes one way or another. And so it's just expressing my gratitude for the work that you do and for the way that you're changing lives every day. Before we go to our break, I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:37]: would be remiss if I didn't ask how cool is it to be on Air Force Alejandra Campoverdi [00:23:40]: There's nothing cooler. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:43]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:49]: Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world. And today, I am really excited to be able to share some amazing news. If you missed it, an email was sent out after the annual conference that NASPA has selected a new president. We are thrilled to share with you that the outcome of the national search of the NASPA president has concluded. And after a thoughtful and deliberate process spanning the past 6 months, the NASPA board of directors have selected Dr. Amelia Parnell as the next President of NASPA. You may know Amelia the from her work as vice president for research and policy at NASPA, a position that she's held since 2015. In this role, she has selected the association's research policy and publications portfolio, providing critical thought and support to the membership. She oversees large scale projects, represents NASPA globally, is speaking engagements in the media, and leads analysis of applicable federal and state legislation and regulatory developments. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:53]: Over the past 8 years, Amelia has secured over $22,000,000 in philanthropic funding, represented NASPA through service to over 20 organizations, including the US Department of Education, and served as the chair of the governing board for the Higher Ed Equity Network and Chair of the Finance and Investment Committee for the EDUCAUSE Board of Directors. Additionally, she has led an 18 month examination of the future of student affairs, overseeing a large volunteer and staff task force and engaging in listening sessions with NASPA members. Prior to NASPA, Amelia served as Director of Research Initiatives at the Association For Institutional Research and Director of National Survey Research for the Association For Institutional Research. From 2005 to 2012, she served as education policy analyst for the Florida Legislature. Amelia has authored numerous scholarly articles and has been regularly quoted in national and trade publications. She is author of the recent book, You Are a Data Person, Strategies for Using Analytics on Campus, which has sold over 3,000 copies to date and is widely used by institutions across the country. She is also a faculty member for the Institute on ePortfolios of the American Association of Colleges and Universities. Amelia holds a BS and MBA in Business Administration from Florida A&M University and a PhD in Higher Education from Florida State University. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:21]: Beyond Amelia's credentials and organizational knowledge, the search committee and the board were most impressed by her vision for continuing to position NASPA as an indispensable organization serving the student affairs profession and higher education more broadly. Her collaborative leadership style combined with her extensive experience and genuine commitment to student success set her apart in a strong and diverse field of applicants for the position. Emilia will begin her tenure as president on July 1, 2024, at which time Kevin Kruger will become president emeritus. As we continue to move toward this next chapter in NASPA's story, we wanna thank the NASPA president search committee and especially the co chairs, Betty Simmons, retired vice president of student development enrollment management at County College of Morris and Pat Whiteley, senior vice president for student affairs and alumni engagement at the University of Miami. These volunteers gave so much of their time to ensure that the next leader of NASPA would be someone who can build on the successes of the last 12 years and position the organization to help its members face the challenges that we know lie ahead. In selecting Amelia, they have done exactly that. We would also like to extend our thanks to the team at Korn Kari for their counsel and support in this search. Our largest congratulations go out to doctor Amelia Parnell, past guest of the show, and we will be having her in the future to talk about that vision for NASPA. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:47]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:12]: Chris, thank you so much for this week's edition of NASPA World. We always appreciate you keeping us updated on what's going around in and around NASPA. And, Alejandra, we have our lightning round questions now. I've got 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:26]: Okay. Let's go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:27]: Alright. Question number 1. Since you are a conference keynote speaker, if you got to choose your entrance music, what would it be? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:33]: Well, I don't know if it's a known fact but First Gen has a playlist cause each chapter title is a song. So I'm gonna pick one of the songs off of the playlist which is Fast Car, Tracy Chapman version though. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:46]: Oh, she just performed recently. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:47]: Oh, so good. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:47]: Love her. So good. I'm gonna sidetrack us and say where can people find your playlist? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:51]: It's on Spotify and in the back of the book, there's a link. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:54]: Alright. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:58]: When I was 5 years old, I wanted to be Cinderella. I actually write about that in the book. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:05]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:08]: My most influential professional mentor was my boss at the White House for a lot of reasons and I I actually there's a whole scene in the book about the way she modeled to me what true leadership was like and really had the power to be able to either support me or not support me in a very pivotal moment at the beginning of the book. And she, to this day, is somebody who's still in my life and threw me a book party when the book came out, which meant a lot. So I would have to say her. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:38]: Number 4, your essential higher education read. I'd be remiss Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:41]: if I didn't say 1st gen. Come on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:43]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:47]: I watched Breaking Bad again. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:48]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:51]: the last year. So because I actually, over the past year, have been so crazy promoting the book. I haven't listened to a lot of podcast. I'm gonna give a shout out to this one. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:00]: Thank you. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:02]: So SA Voices from the Field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:04]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? I just like to Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:08]: thank the NASPA family for welcoming me and of course to Dina over at the First Gen Center. I've had such an incredible experience getting to know folks in this world and a lot of the folks in student affairs and 1st gen programs. And so shout out to everyone here and the work that they're doing and to you for having me. I appreciate it. Again, the Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:28]: book is First Gen, a memoir by Alejandra Campoverdi. You can pick it up in the NASPA bookstore or wherever you buy books. Now if folks would like to book you for a speaking tour on their campus or reach you otherwise, how can they find you? Well, Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:40]: I'm super in my DMs. So you could DM me on Instagram or send me a LinkedIn message or on my website. There's an email that you can also reach out to me there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:50]: And what's your website? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:51]: Alejandracampoverdi.com. Thank you Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:54]: so much, for sharing your voice with us today. Thank you. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at nasa dotorg or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:26]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

**Advancing DEI Values** In an enlightening new episode of SA Voices From The Field Dr. Jill Creighton invites Shawntal Brown, an advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), to share her insights on driving institutional support for these crucial values. Shawntal emphasizes how integrating DEI into the fabric of higher education is not just beneficial but essential for creating welcoming and inclusive environments. **The Research Journey** Shawntal's research journey reveals a strategic pivot from focusing on staff insights to exploring university presidents' role in championing DEI. This shift underscores the importance of leadership buy-in for effective DEI initiatives **Navigating Complex Social Landscapes** Proactive DEI work is emerging as a priority in contemporary academia. Dr. Jill and Shawntal discuss the challenges posed by today's charged social and political climates, emphasizing the need for steadfast commitment to DEI principles. **Legislative Impacts on DEI** Texas Senate Bill 17's severe restrictions on diversity trainings and resources present significant hurdles. Shawntal offers a poignant analysis of the bill's consequences, exploring the complex task of reconciling legislative compliance with DEI values. **Staying True to DEI Amidst Legal Challenges** Transitioning DEI efforts to align with new legislation while adhering to core values is a delicate balance. Shawntal reflects on her time in the school of engineering, bringing a personal touch to her professional dedication to supporting students. **Self-Care for DEI Professionals** Shawntal wisely advises her peers to prioritize self-care while traversing the treacherous waters of DEI work, advocating for a strong support system amidst the current landscape. **Professional Development and Community Building** Promising initiatives like the NASPA 2024 Mid Level Administrators Conference and the Women's Leadership Institute provide pivotal growth and networking opportunities for DEI professionals. **Resources Against Regressive Legislation** Sharing resources and staying informed are vital for navigating legislative impacts on higher education, as Shawntal passionately discusses. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Welcome back for our next episode. And today, I'm very excited to introduce you to Shawntal Brown. Shawntal aims to advance the values of diversity, equity, and inclusion and promote servant leadership through her research, service, and formal academic appointments. In her current appointment as senior outreach program coordinator for initiatives for campus support in the division of campus and community engagement at the University of Texas at Austin, Shawntal builds connections with students, staff, and faculty so the campus community members can experience a welcoming and inclusive campus climate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:57]: She enjoys a research based approach to community building, including leveraging campus climate assessment findings to develop resources and strategically approach campus outreach to support equitable environments at the university. Her equity lens is also evident in her service and accolades. Shawntal is the co-president of the Texas Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education or TADAHE for short and provides TADAHE administrators with professional and personal development opportunities in alignment with the mission, envision, and equity and inclusive experience of the organization. Additionally, she received the NASPA Region 3 DEI Mosaic Award for her passion and support of diversity, equity, and inclusion through her advocacy and research. Shawntal's doctoral research focuses on university presidents and their commitments to DEI through their organizational perspective. Her work, mapping pleasure and pain of women's bodies, Southern Black feminist geographic interventions in the journal Gender, Place, and Culture. And Additionally, she has co authored with doctor Michael a Goodman in ACPA developments called It'll Be Like Biden and Harris, a Black Woman's Conundrum in Collegiate Student Government. To bridge research and practice across disciplines, Shawntal regularly presents at different conferences, including National Women's Studies Association, the Texas Association College and University Student Personnel Administrators or TCUPSA Group, and with NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:16]: Hope you enjoy our conversation. Before this episode moves forward today, I want to ensure that we clarify the timeline for the conversation. Shawntal and I had the pleasure of speaking in mid February 2024. This was prior to the layoffs happening at the University of Florida in the DEIB space. So if you don't hear us reference it or you're confused why something sounds a little different than your expectations, it's because that particular action simply had not occurred yet when this conversation was recorded. If you are a person at the University of Florida who's been impacted by the legislation and by job loss, just want to say that I'm thinking about you and hope that you're able to progress forward in a way that is meaningful and also still helps our students feel included, not just feel included, but become included in our collegiate spaces. I appreciate all of the work that you all are doing and have done. Shawntal, we are thrilled to welcome you to SA Voices. Shawntal Brown [00:03:14]: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited for today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:17]: And in our theme of transitions, we're going to be talking about your transitions primarily as a diversity educator and student activist all the way through to professional who's supporting students who are engaging in activism. And we always love to get to know our guests by asking you how you got to your current seat. Shawntal Brown [00:03:34]: Yes. So I think going back, I am originally from Oklahoma City. So transferred to Austin, Texas for my master's in women's and gender studies. And so while I was a master's student, I was just trying to find my way of, like, you know, what do I wanna do as a career? What do I want to, like, focus on? And I found myself being in spaces that primarily supported minority student populations. And so first started out in a center called the Gender and Sexuality Center, supported LGBTQIA students, women students within that space, and led different opportunities like a feminist Friday, where we talked about different topics focused on, like, you know, feminist theory, talking about occurring events, things like that. Just supporting folks who are like in different organizations. And so as I was in that space, I was like, I kinda like this. This is like a really cool space to be in. Shawntal Brown [00:04:23]: I really enjoyed just working along the different program programs that they did, events that were had. And I was like there's there's something about this that I like and so after I finish that internship, I started working at the international office at my institution at the University of Texas at Austin, and I was working with, like, different students from different, countries. So from, like, China, Germany, you name it. We were working with those student populations. And to do that event, I was considered a assistant program coordinator then. And before, I'm not formally trained in, you know, student theory, higher education, and that sends for my master's degree. And so I was like, I wonder how this could pan out as a job in the future. And so slowly but surely continue to do that work, working with different student groups, whether they're international, whether they were, like, you know, minoritized populations, campus. Shawntal Brown [00:05:17]: And then I found myself, like, I think this is, like, the career path that I wanna go down. And so I was applying for positions that are specifically working with underrepresented students, especially women students. I wanted to, you know, continue to do that work. And after a while, I was able to become a student program coordinator in an engineering office that supported underrepresented students, which was an amazing opportunity because I, like, advise student groups, a lot of professional groups like the National Society of Black Engineers, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers. I was able to put on programs to welcome, like, prospective students. I did a lot of recruitment work, and then also did, like, classes, taught, like, research research course, getting students it really interested in graduate school, especially underrepresented students because I was just like, you in this space are so important to have as a potential, like, faculty member, as a mentor for, like, future students that are coming behind you. And so I was really passionate about doing that work. But really in that role is doing, like, a little bit of everything, becoming like a Swiss army knife, if you will, in, the space. Shawntal Brown [00:06:18]: So really getting to know different skills that I was building and helping folks academically, helping folks professionally, you know, all those different realms for those student groups. And so after a while, I was like, this has been a really great opportunity just to really get to know these students, seeing them grow in their different ways. And so that was, like, my first full time position to really see, like, this is a really great opportunity to work with these students. And so now my current role as a senior outreach program coordinator, I work in a division of the of campus and community engagement. It's more focused on the broader campus community as supporting students, staff, and faculty to make sure they have a welcoming and accessible, like, experience at the institution. But really, my pathway kind of just helping support underrepresented groups has been really just like the foundation of where I found myself at the institution and just really enjoy the work that I do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:09]: And I'll give you a shout out for your work for our listeners. As we mentioned in the bio, Shawntal actually received a NASPA award region 3 for, the DEI Mosaic award supporting diversity, equity, and inclusion. So can you tell us about what work led to that recognition? Shawntal Brown [00:07:24]: Yeah. Oh, goodness. I would just also wanna shout out the folks who willingly nominated me. I was like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. The it was really like a lot of the work that I have done has really been focused on, just supporting the professionals in my role with the Techs Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education. A mouthful I know, but we call it TADAA here, was really the opportunity for me to really branch out and network with other DEI professionals rather in the state of Texas. Shawntal Brown [00:07:51]: And so that was kind of, like, one of the many things that folks saw me doing. I'm currently the co president for that. And so that has kind of, like, led to to that recementing my foundation within DEI. I think just also the support of, underrepresented students, like I've mentioned, has really just been, like, the cracks that people can see that connection building that I really love to just put forth with people. And let me see. I think I'm trying to remember one more. I feel like I'm forgetting one more, but I think folks see the overall research. And I'm also doing my my doctorate part time, doing my research focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion. Shawntal Brown [00:08:28]: And I think people see that that's something that's really just a core value to my, like, higher ed professional life profile. And so I think the folks who nominated me really saw and let that shine through when they wrote those nominations. So I'm really appreciative for them. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:44]: And the work that you were doing for that recognition, also extremely important and kind of unique to tie into higher education. Can you talk a little bit about how you found your research topic? Because I know that is a major question for almost every doctoral student on the planet. Everyone's either on this very big mind space of wanting to study everything, maybe a little bit lost on not knowing what to study. Shawntal Brown [00:09:06]: Yeah. That's a great question. I think I really started out with, like, the crux of, like, I'm really interested in DEI in my research, but where do I go here? And initially, I was trying to focus more on, like, the staff perspective of, like, flipping it. Like, what could staff do to make DEI more cemented in their goals and their, like, you know, opportunities and things like that. But then I was, like, really sitting with it's bigger than this because my personal opinion in thinking about the institution, I feel like DEI should be really just linked up into, like it should be fully embedded into the infrastructure of the institution. So I was, like, thinking, how can that happen? What does that look like? And read through, like, the literature that I have gone through at this point. They talked about chief diversity officers as, like, really important people to have in these roles, really important to have in these spaces to really amplify that voice. But then in the case of my research specifically, I was like, you know what? Let's shift it. Shawntal Brown [00:10:00]: Like, what does it mean to have a university president who really supports this? And so that's kind of the perspective I'm taking up. Like, what does it mean for your leadership up above to support the values of diversity and inclusion, whether it be in their state of union addresses and strategic plans. Like what does that mean for them to do this work? And so it was something that it took me a while to get there. I think I kind of, like, was taking the different angles. I think of it as like a diamond. I was like, I'm on this face of the diamond, but I I need to just go over to this face to this face. And now I'm like, oh, I kind of hit where I wanna be. And it's really interesting. Shawntal Brown [00:10:34]: I might nerd out a little bit on researching because I'm really excited about it to really look at one specific, president that is at the University of Texas at Boston who had a really amazing legacy that I've heard so far, who was William c Powers, who just really did a lot of great work and really amplified diversity, equity, inclusion here. And so I'm kind of curious, how did he do this work? How did he get here? And so I'm very excited to start get to the process of, like, interviewing, chatting with folks to kinda hear about the experiences that people may have had with him. So I'm I'm really excited just to see what does this mean for other future university presidents? What does it mean for folks who are, like, aspiring for this role who also love diversity, equity, inclusion, or value diversity, equity, inclusion too? So I'm really excited for this. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:15]: I think that's really important work to look at that narrative perspective on what it actually looks like in practice. I know that our NASPA colleagues put out a publication not too long ago about campus statements in response to acts of racial aggression or ethnic aggression or marginalized identity based aggression and what they looked like, some of their impact and things like that that came out, I wanna say, maybe couple of years ago. It was post the murder of George Floyd, but it was, I think, still during the pandemic when that came out. So that maybe kind of losing a little steam in terms of age as we all know research does, but I appreciate that I think what you're doing is carrying that forward and looking a little bit deeper at one individual perspective. But I'm wondering as a professional in the DEI realm, what you're seeing in terms of transitioning the work that you're doing because I feel like for a long time, the field was in reactive mode because there was so much happening. And now maybe we're swinging back to being more proactive. What do you see? Shawntal Brown [00:12:13]: No. I think that's really important now, especially with, like, the social political climate happening, you know, states like Texas, very conservative states with the anti DEI legislature that's going on. And so I think it's an opportunity for professionals who are trying to, 1, remain in compliance with, like, you know, the new law. But then, 2, for folks who are, like, needing to really resubmit and reaffirm the work that they're doing. And so it's definitely, like, a difficult balance right now because to think more broadly about what's going on, folks of the AI professionals or, you know, the new spaces that folks are in trying to still support the new type of work that we're doing is a really tough place. It's definitely like a lot of losses happened, but I think it's more important now than ever to learn how to be proactive in the spaces, especially That's a generous word. Yeah. It's a unique time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:11]: That's a generous word. Shawntal Brown [00:13:13]: Yeah. It's a unique time. And so I think it I think there is, like, a future of what we can do to continue to support a version of diversity work and what it can be. But I think it's definitely like a we're kinda rolling with the punches. And I think the proactive piece will definitely it still needs to be there, but I think it'll just have to be a different way of shaping it for it to be still present in our values in of itself, if that makes sense. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:42]: So the unique thing always about the US is that depending on which state you're in, the rules shift drastically. We also have quite a few national members who are not within the United States. So can you please elucidate a little bit what's going on in Texas with the law? Shawntal Brown [00:13:56]: Yes. No. That's important to just kind of get out of my US centric perspective. So in Texas specifically, there was a bill passed called 7 senate bill 17. It's more colloquially described as, like, the anti DEI bill. And so with this, the bill asked for many different things to be discontinued, such as, like, diversity trainings, opportunities to have specific affinity groups, ally trainings, different types of statements made by individuals. So, like, diversity statements are no longer able to be offered by faculty who are looking into precisions at their institutions. But many all of it did really say that is trying to aim towards, like, a color blind, gender neutral approach to things that happens at the institution, which is very difficult because a lot of the current DEI offices in Texas specifically have to go through undergo a lot of changes. Shawntal Brown [00:14:49]: And some of these changes resulted a lot of them were resolved. And then an office that, you know, had to come back with something that was gonna abide by the current law of senate bill 17. And so it's definitely been a lot of upheaval just like not specifically I would say upheaval watching it as a professional at my institution, but also looking at the broader, like, Texas institutions and seeing how the different changes are happening. And that's definitely been, like, a really tough time overall just kind of navigating the the spaces and how everyone's kind of doing things a little bit differently. So it's been tough in that front. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:25]: I think Texas, Utah, and Florida are all kind of in the same space right now. How are you transitioning your work on a day to day basis from what maybe you would have done last year or things like trainings or just general inclusion in your campus community? And how do you work towards that now given it feels like it's a little bit antithesis to the new law? Shawntal Brown [00:15:50]: Yeah. I think I'll I'll highlight Tadee because I think it is a moment where us as an organization, we really wanna provide resources to staff in those spaces and really help them kind of understand the new law and also building community with each other. Because since we Texas is so big, so spread out, there's so many institutions here. And so it's really, like, important to have, like, the community building, like, resource offering to folks because, like I mentioned, like, everyone's doing things a little bit differently, understanding the the law a little bit differently. And so that makes it really tough. I can empathize and, like, relate to, like, the feeling of, like, isolation in some ways of, oh my goodness. We're this little hub here, and we're doing this in this way. And then watching, like, a little hub there, and they're doing it that way. Shawntal Brown [00:16:40]: And so I think I am fortunate to be in a role with Tati just to kind of be a support system in this time and just really try to bring together the conversations with individuals. Like, we're having our annual summit that's coming up in the summertime, and so we're really trying to bring people, like, let's chat about this. Let's understand it. How can we work together in this time? How can we support each other in this time? And so that's our main push right now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:04]: And what are you seeing that's working? Shawntal Brown [00:17:06]: I feel like, you know, in the in the broader sense, I think the resource sharing has been more, this is our key. We need to chat about this. We need to talk about these conversations. So resource sharing has been very helpful. Just to understand what's happening at other campuses because we're this is still new. We're about, what, a month in to this new legislature. So it's kind of like, oh, yeah. We need to chat with each other. Shawntal Brown [00:17:27]: We need to talk to each other. And so definitely, like, receiving articles, keeping up with the news, reading about what's changing, what's happening across the country, across the state, it's been really important during this time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:38]: And anyone in particular who's been implementing practice differently now in terms of being able to do the work and stay in alignment with what the legislature expects? Shawntal Brown [00:17:48]: Yeah. I think that's a really great question. And I think a lot of the work that we used to do within our spaces cannot continue. And that's really been tough for us as higher ed professionals to learn the restrictions and the confines that we have to navigate with this new law. And so it really hurts because there's great losses that hasn't been acknowledged enough. I would say just to know that there are centers that are closed that used to support LGBTQ students. There are positions that are being let go of at different institutions. And so there's a lot of grieving that is happening right now amid these different anti DEI laws. Shawntal Brown [00:18:31]: And so it makes the work that we try to do within the confines of this law much more difficult because we are trying to make sure that we are in compliance to new law. So there's a lot of barriers to us now. And so it does impede a lot of the progress that was made in prior years that we're trying to, you know, we were trying to advance towards equity, and now we can't. And so it's definitely very much antithetical to the work that was previously done, and it's making it more difficult for higher ed professionals to continue to do this work. And so, yeah, that's been really tough and really difficult to just sit with currently. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:09]: Yeah. Let's talk about your students as well or the students in the state of Texas because, you know, we we think about the impact to the profession. We think about, you know, the impact to how our faculty colleagues are also responding. But at the end of the day, the number one population impacted is probably the students who will either no longer be receiving this type of education or who maybe relied on services or communities, that are no longer either allowed or at least recognizable under this new law. So how is that playing out? Shawntal Brown [00:19:44]: I think in the sense of this law, the students have really stepped up in some ways. And I know that's kind of a tricky thing because I know my personal, like, soap boxes that students came to the institution to learn and not have to do so much advocacy work. And so I hold a bit of tension with it in some ways. But I also say that they have a lot of voice in what they can do and make institutional leaders know, like, this is a problem. We're missing this. We're hurting. We want to make sure that you understand this loud and clear. And I think, like, you know, throughout social media, throughout, like, my personal experience of, like, what I'm seeing broadly is, like, I think that student voice is really important right now. Shawntal Brown [00:20:24]: It's critical right now, and it's so needed because they are being heard. They are, you know, doing their own organizing. And there are groups that are even outside of the institution that are doing their organizing that, you know, are putting their own resources together to really band with each other, which is really important too. And so I really admire and appreciate what they're doing because it's really gonna be something that's, 1, gonna be important in when we look back at this time to see the work that they've done and acknowledge that work. But then, 2, it's gonna be something that we may need to think about in the future sense too of, like, you know, how can we make sure that students, in a broader sense, kind of get information that's gonna be helpful for them prior to, like, the bills coming up. Maybe more of a, how can we think about legislative, like, education and advocacy for our students? Like, how can that be built into our to our programming and our systems, like, in the future too? So it's kind of like a thought that I hadn't missed about this kind of reflecting the experiences. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:20]: And you were a student activist before becoming a professional in the DEI space. How has your take on the work changed from being a student in the space to being a professional who's leading others in the space? Shawntal Brown [00:21:32]: I think in my experience, I guess, like for context, I went to the University of Oklahoma for my alma mater. And so there is a unfortunately, a racist incident that happened at the institution that is known as the Sigma Alpha Epsilon, incident. Institution that is known as the Sigma Alpha Epsilon, incident or SAE. It had a lot of, like, press CNN, a lot of, like, you know, large global and local news kind of took over it. And, essentially, it really alienated black students on campus because the fraternity didn't want black men to be part of their organization. And so it was something where in that student activist perspective, I was like, my voice, I feel like I need to share something. Like, my voice is needed in this conversation, and I wanna be able to contribute. And so to really do a lot of work of, like, making your voice known at that time was really important and also engaging in different conversations that people were having. Shawntal Brown [00:22:24]: So whether it was me on social media talking about, you know, this is why this isn't, you know, this is the article, current events. This is what I think about it. We need to kind of think about how we can incorporate this at the institution is one way I kinda contribute my voice in the conversation. And also showing up to, like, meetings with senior leadership as well as a way to kind of put the face and name, help them understand how we can better improve the experiences for black students specifically at the campus, but also like black faculty to consider them and black staff to consider them. And I think that was really important during that time in addition to there's already a, like, a student activist group called O You and Her that I always tell folks, like, I feel like I was at the 2nd wave of that organization. And the 1st wave of folks were really doing the work, and the 2nd wave was kind of thinking more of, like, how can we make this work be expansive than just this time frame that we're having now. And so to think about all those different experience as a student activist that I've had and coming into this role as, like, being a full time professional, it was interesting to think about when 2020 did happen and then the murder of George Floyd did occur, that there was a lot of student voice that was happening when I was in my role in the the school of engineering. And I was like, oh, when I was in my role in the the school of engineering. And I was like, oh my goodness. This is very reminiscent. This feels familiar. And it was a moment for me to kind of think about, like, where do I step in and where do I step back? Because I know as a professional, there's, like, all the different layers of, like, you know, you cannot represent, like, the institution. You can't represent your department, but how else can you support these students? And so really to be like the the listening ear or the person who's signing, like the list of demands that they had to kind of like cosign with them. If I was able to do that with them, then that was something that I was, like, I feel good about supporting you in this way or folks that, like, wanting to talk about advice about navigating the space or what made sense or who to talk to. Shawntal Brown [00:24:13]: I think that's kind of how it shifted in a way of from the student perspective, I felt more, I guess, I don't wanna say without restriction, but I guess, like, there's a freeness around, like, you know, how I can, like, express my voice and how I can express my opinion and thoughts and things of that way. But as a staff member, I had to kinda reflect on my sense of, like, power and privilege and kind of, like, know when I can, like, step up in that space and, like, help support or need to step back and let the students kind of lead that and let me be in the background. And so I think that perspective overall has really kind of helped better understand or I guess better empathize really when students do use their voice or, you know, need support in using their voice and kinda think about how the greater picture of, like, what can change at an institution really look like overall with those two perspectives in mind? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:00]: That is a really important lesson that I think a lot of us in campus based higher education need to relearn often, which is in student affairs, we are more often than not the primary advocate and voice for student needs within a university's administration. And that voice has a lot of power, but also it can be marginalized at an institution in a lot of cases. And so often I I think about how much power our students really do have compared to staff, and it is a very different balance. And deciding to sign on to a position statement with students is an interesting balance of choice that we all have to make when presented with that choice. Can you talk a little bit about how you make that choice, to determine whether you're signing on to something that your students are advocating for versus not? Shawntal Brown [00:25:50]: I think that's a delicate balance. And truthfully, I think I'm still learning. I think in that space of thinking about when I was in engineering, I was appreciative that other staff members were willing to do that same thing for students. And so I felt that since the community from trusted folks who were, like, signing on to their to their positionality statements and speaking up in that way. And I think it was more of a communal thing of, like, you know, yes, we agree with you. We see you. We see the work that you're doing. I think in in now, I think in some ways, I still do that. Shawntal Brown [00:26:22]: But sometimes I'm used like a personal email, for example, as a way to still kind of do that work because I feel, you know, there is I think I've hear this so many times, like, there's power in numbers and it's really important. And so if I can still provide that support and maybe it's more of a perfect like a personal like, I personally feel like this is something critical that the institution needs to listen to. I will do that work because I want to see the institution or whatever the department, the office change for the better. And once it changes for the better, it changes for everyone. And it's a it's a win for everyone, I feel. And so I think that's like the subtle way I have done it. There's probably other ways that folks probably have thought through it, but I think that's the my catch for all that balancing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:07]: Especially if you're a public employee choosing to use a personal email is a big thing. Right? So I think everyone would be smart to check with their local regulations on what that means for public records and whole bunch of other things. But, yeah, it's it's definitely an interesting balance. And then at some point in your career as you grow, that letter's being sent to you as opposed to you being asked to sign on to it. And then we're in a position to decide how we engage in dialogue and actions and how we determine what's actionable and not actionable. What's usually, everything is quite reasonable, but what is actionable is a different question given budget and time and, human resources and all those things. I absolutely have so much respect for what's going on for DEI professionals. And as like I said, in Texas, Utah, Florida, you all are on the forefront of what could be a policy trend. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:01]: And then on the other side, you know, we've got states that are instituting protective measures for these efforts instead. Do you have any advice for DEI professionals who are out there navigating these waters on a daily? Shawntal Brown [00:28:14]: I guess one thing is please take care of yourself during this time because it's hard. It has definitely been hard. I think that that has been the biggest thing that I feel like I'm still in some ways learning of, like, needing to step away for a moment as much as I'm able to and kind of step back. Because at the end of the day, it's like it's a very large thing that's happening, like, across the United States, across specific states. And I think if you have the support to lean on someone else or to tap in someone else to kind of be there for you as you kind of, like, take that moment to yourself is really important. I think it's a tricky thing, but I think that's something that I wish I kinda had that person, like, in the midst of things changing or learning about the legislation. I kinda wish I had a tap and being like, hey, Shawntal, you need to go sit down for a moment. You need to rest for a moment. Shawntal Brown [00:29:04]: And that has been something that I feel like that is at the core now. For me, it's just kind of slowing down, taking the step away, reading a book, meditating, whatever I need to to kind of repour my cup for myself and to kind of still understand the the current landscape that we're in. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:20]: It's such simple and beautiful advice, but so hard to actually do. The delivery of that is really challenging, I think, in the hustle and bustle of our present day. Shawntal Brown [00:29:30]: Yes. But it's a good like a reminder. So check-in, it's kind of like check-in like, Hey, how are you doing? And then really kind of assess like, what makes sense for you to like, continue in the day. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:41]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:47]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world and a lot of things happening. Though we're past the NASPA annual conference, there's a number of other professional development opportunities that are coming up. One such event is the 2024 NASPA Mid Level Administrators Conference. The early registration for this conference closes on Friday, March 29th. Join us in Indianapolis, Indiana for a transformative professional development experience tailored for mid level student affairs professionals like you. Discover cutting edge strategies for organizational leadership, master the art of managing from the middle, and unlock your full potential in influencing change. Connect with peers, exchange insights, and build a robust network of allies to support your growth. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:32]: Don't miss out on this opportunity to level up your skills and take your career to new heights. Register now and embark on a journey of growth, learning, and connection at mlac 2024. The conference itself runs from June 13th to June 15th in Indianapolis, Indiana. If you want more information, go to the NASPA website and find out more. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is running from December 10th through 13th in San Diego, California. ACUI, Association of College Unions International, and NASPA are partnering to bring you an experience focused on women leaders in higher education. This institute offers strategies for women who plan to lead with lasting impact. ACUI and NASPA are seeking programs that will inspire participants to become an inspirational and effective leader. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:23]: The program is designed by women for women. If you have a program that you would like to submit, submit it on the NASPA website by April 26th to be considered for this. Some of the topics that the Leadership Institute looks to cover include supervision and performance management, strategic planning, financial well-being, upskill, reskill the bridge to the future, delegating and giving away, picking up new skills and putting things down among others. Again, the deadline to submit your program is April 26, and I encourage you to go to the NASPA website to find out more. Volume 25 of the Journal of College and Character is out. And as a NASPA member, you have access to the Journal of College and Character among a number of other great journals that will help you in your own professional development. This peer reviewed publication has a number of amazing articles that are in it. And in this issue, there are a ton of peer reviewed articles as well as some specific focus areas on student engagement with spiritual and secular world views, diversity and social justice and interfaith cooperation. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:36]: I highly encourage you to check out the Journal of College and Character for yourself. If you've never checked out the journals, go to the NASPA website, highlight publications, and go down to the Journal of College and Character. You'll also see the other 3 journals that are available for NASPA members, the Journal of First Generation Student Success, the Journal of Student Affairs Research and Practice, and the Journal of Women short course that is happening between March 25th April 26th on basic counseling skills. This short course is a primer on the fundamental critical topic of mental health and how to support students on your campus and beyond tailored for non clinical professionals. The program will focus on hands on skills needed for empathetic listening and effective referral making based on NASBA's book, Basic Counseling Skills for Higher Education Professionals, topics include anxiety and depression, sexual assault and violence, well-being and burnout, current trends in student mental health, making referrals, student support, and more. You can register for this short course on the NASPO website. This course is set up as 5 60 minute live sessions that'll be held every Wednesday at 1 PM EST. They're scheduled for March 27th, April 3rd, April 10th, April 17th, and April 24th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:02]: Again, go to the NASPA website and learn more. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents, association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:25]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:30]: Chris, we really appreciate you always updating us on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Shawntal, that means we have made it to our lightning round of our show. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Feeling ready? Shawntal Brown [00:35:44]: I'm ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:45]: Alright. Let's roll. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Shawntal Brown [00:35:50]: Because I'm gonna say Texas Hold. I'm gonna be Beyonce. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:52]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Shawntal Brown [00:35:56]: An astronaut. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:56]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Shawntal Brown [00:35:59]: Oh my goodness. I would say doctor Sophia Morin at the University of Oklahoma. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Shawntal Brown [00:36:08]: Not necessarily within student affairs, but I would say Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Glover Tawab. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:15]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Shawntal Brown [00:36:18]: Oh, goodness. I watch a lot of true crime, so that's probably what was something I was watching during that time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:24]: Number 6, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Shawntal Brown [00:36:28]: Oh, that is You Need to Hear This by Metro Global Chihuahua. Wonderful, wonderful podcast. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:33]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Shawntal Brown [00:36:37]: Oh, goodness. I like to thank my husband, Cody. He's always there listening to me, listening ear. I'll shout it out to my family in Oklahoma and all the folks that I have made friends with and and who have supported me in the state of Texas. There's a lot of people, but I hope they all know who they are. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:54]: Well, it's been wonderful to learn from you today, Shawntal, and to hear your perspective on the evolution of DEI work in these states that are becoming more challenging to deliver that work in on a daily. If anyone would like to find community with you after the show, how can they reach you? Shawntal Brown [00:37:09]: Yes. I'm really active on Twitter. It is @ShawntalBrown, capital s, capital b. You can find me there. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And then I also have a Instagram, Shawntal_ or Shawntal_brown_22. So happy to connect with folks on all those platforms. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:27]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Shawntal Brown [00:37:29]: Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:33]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:14]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Dr.Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

The annual NASPA conference, a gathering of student affairs professionals, is a platform for networking, learning, and sharing experiences. In a recent episode of the "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" podcast, host Dr. Jill Creighton provides insight into the themes and focus areas of the conference, as well as the importance of engaging in discussions related to navigating uncertainty, care amidst chaos, and inclusion and belonging within the field of student affairs. Opportunities in Uncertainty: The theme of "navigating the opportunities of uncertainty" acknowledges the ever-evolving landscape of higher education. Student affairs professionals often grapple with constant changes, whether it be in policies, technology, or the needs of the student population. Embracing uncertainty can lead to growth, innovation, and adaptability within the field. As Dr. Creighton points out, this theme encourages professionals to find the silver lining in times of ambiguity, recognizing that within uncertainty lies the potential for transformation and positive change. Care in Chaos: The second focus area, "care in chaos," resonates deeply with those working in student affairs, especially during turbulent times. Practicing self-care and extending empathy towards students and colleagues is pivotal in maintaining a healthy and supportive work environment. The theme highlights the significance of prioritizing mental health, fostering resilience, and promoting a culture of care within the student affairs community. Dr. Creighton's emphasis on nurturing individuals amidst chaos underscores the importance of emotional well-being while navigating the complexities of the profession. Justice, Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Belonging: The conference's third focus area amplifies the ongoing dialogue surrounding justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging (JEDIB). Creating inclusive environments where all individuals feel valued and represented is essential in student affairs. Dr. Creighton underscores the importance of actively engaging in conversations about systemic injustices, promoting diversity, and advocating for equity within the field. The theme serves as a reminder of the continuous work required to dismantle barriers and foster environments of genuine belonging for all members of the academic community. Recognition and Appreciation: In addition to discussing the conference themes, Dr. Creighton takes a moment to acknowledge the tremendous contributions of her co-host, Dr. Chris Lewis, who has been awarded the Pillar of the Profession award from NASPA. This recognition not only celebrates Dr. Lewis's leadership and dedication but also underscores the spirit of collaboration and mentorship within the student affairs community. It serves as a reminder of the impact that individuals can make on the profession and the importance of honoring their influence and achievements. Conclusion and Call to Action: The podcast episode concludes with an invitation for attendees to engage with the "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" team during the conference, expressing interest in sharing their voices on the aforementioned focus areas. Dr. Creighton encourages listeners to connect with the show through feedback, topic suggestions, and spreading the word to colleagues. This call to action emphasizes the power of collective participation and dialogue, highlighting the significance of community engagement and knowledge-sharing within the student affairs profession. In summary, the NASPA conference provides an invaluable platform for professionals to delve into critical topics, engage in meaningful discourse, and draw inspiration from each other's experiences. The podcast episode not only sheds light on the conference's themes but also serves as a catalyst for ongoing conversations and collaborative efforts within the vibrant tapestry of student affairs. The "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" podcast exemplifies the commitment to amplifying diverse perspectives and fostering a sense of community within the profession, ultimately contributing to the continuous advancement of student affairs.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Dropping in with a quick note to let you know that we will not be releasing a regular episode this week. It is the annual conference and Chris and I are both making our way to Seattle, Washington where we hope to engage with so many of you about the profession, about your thoughts, and about where we are right now. This year's conference has 3 focus areas on which all of the programming submissions were centered. The first is navigating the opportunities of uncertainty. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]: The second is care in chaos. And the third is justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging. Like in years past, Chris and I will be moving about the conference with our portable audio recorders asking you to contribute your voice to this show on those three topic areas. So if you happen to come across one of us, please feel free to approach us and let us know that you would love to share your voice. We would love to feature you. After we've done that, you'll hear from us following the conference with an episode featuring all of your stories. I also wanna take a moment to give a mega huge shout out to Dr. Chris Lewis. He is receiving the Pillar of the Profession award this year from NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:29]: And I just wanna say a personal thank you to Chris for his partnership in creating this podcast and for all of his leadership within the profession. Many of you may not know that Chris actually founded the Student Affairs Partnering with Academic Affairs Knowledge Community, or I think it's SAPA for short. So if that's an area of interest for you, that's also a great area for you to connect with us on. So we hope to see so many of you in Seattle. Have a very safe journey and we will be back with regular episodes next week. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:15]: If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5-star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:53]: Catch you next time.

Transitioning Toward Inclusivity and Excellence in Student Affairs Student affairs professionals are essential to the fabric of higher education, guiding students through their transformational college journey while grappling with their own career advances. Dr. Anna Gonzalez, NASPA's incoming board chair, brings her extensive experience in higher education to the forefront in a recent episode of the Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast. As a first-generation college student and Filipino immigrant, she not only shares the lessons of her personal history but also sets the stage for the future of student affairs. Embracing Identity and Leading with Inclusion A journey marked by immigration at a young age, the pursuit of education, and ultimately, a leadership role in NASPA, Dr. Gonzalez's story is one of overcoming barriers and bringing true diversity to student affairs. Her advocacy for first-generation students, her stride in higher education policy, and her commitment to fostering diversity enrich the conversation around transitions within the student affairs profession. Pioneering Change Amidst Global Challenges In these times of global connectivity and unforeseen challenges, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Gonzalez's experience transitioning to a significant role at WashU and her decision to accept the position as NASPA chair are testaments to adaptability and resilience. The interview, spanning two continents, showcases the transformative power of leaders who embrace change and prioritize the well-being of their colleagues and students. Fostering Well-Being and Job Satisfaction in Student Affairs The podcast delves into the crucial role of mid-level professionals in student affairs and the specific, intentional support they require. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Gonzalez emphasize the importance of strong supervision and staff recognition, addressing job satisfaction, workforce diversity, and benefits to cultivate healthy work-life balance. The ongoing dialogue underscores the necessity of redefining expectations for salaried employees in higher education and promoting a culture that appreciates the indispensable contributions of student affairs professionals. The Path Forward: Advocacy and Policy in Higher Education The episode not only celebrates the trajectory of Dr. Gonzalez but also presents crucial touchpoints for the future of student affairs, including advocacy in higher education policy. It illuminates the structural changes needed to recognize the value of student affairs and its impact on students and the civic health of society at large. Dr. Gonzalez's presidency promises to bring these concerns to the forefront, ensuring that higher education remains a pillar of opportunity and empowerment for all students. Conclusion: A Call to Action for Student Affairs Professionals Dr. Anna Gonzalez's reflections offer a beacon of inspiration and a call to action for student affairs professionals to advocate for change, recognize their value, and create inclusive environments for learning and growth. Her leadership in NASPA champions these principles, urging educators and policymakers alike to consider the significant influence they have in shaping the future of higher education. Listening to the SA Voices from the Field podcast offers an enriching perspective on the multifaceted roles of student affairs professionals. To capture the full essence of Dr. Gonzalez's insights and guidance, tune in to the podcast and join in the conversation around student affairs transformation.     TRANSCRIPTS Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to essay voices from the field where today we are thrilled to welcome NASPA's incoming board chair, doctor Ana Gonzalez. Doctor Gonzalez leads successful student affairs operations with a particular commitment to fostering diversity and inclusion in all aspects of student life. With 30 years of experience in higher education, she previously held positions at the University of California Irvine, the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, and at Lewis and Clark College where she was a founding faculty member and program director for the master's program in student affairs administration in the Graduate School of Counseling and Education. Doctor Gonzalez most recently came from Harvey Mudd College, an institution within the Claremont Colleges consortium where she served as the vice president for student affairs as well as the program director and faculty member at the Claremont Graduate University. Her research interests are focused on first generation students, immigrant students, equity and diversity, higher education policy and governance, student affairs administration, and higher education finance. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:23]: A 1st generation college student who immigrated to the US at the age of 10, doctor G graduated from Loyola Marymount University with a bachelor's degree in international business. She earned her master's in doctoral degrees, both in education, from Claremont Graduate University. Anna, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:40]: Hi. How are you doing, Jill? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:42]: I'm so glad to be speaking with you. We are spread wide apart on the globe today with you calling in from Hawaii, and I am currently sitting in Paris, France. So we appreciate the accommodation of the time zone action. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:54]: This is fantastic. This is how our world is now, actually. We are global at all kinds of time zones, so it's fantastic. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]: And I think fairly representative of how NASPA's growing too anyway. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:06]: I definitely believe so. I think so. We'll definitely see it at the conference too. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]: Well, we've made a tradition out of interviewing the incoming NASPA board chair since Chris and I started collaborating on the show. So I believe you are the 5th board chair that we've had the pleasure of having on the show to talk about your transition, but this is the 1st time that our season has been themed to transitions while the board chair transition was happening. So we're we're right on point today. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:33]: That's great. And I love the theme. I think that's perfect in terms of my life and my career, so I love it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:39]: We've had probably the most outpouring of support for this particular theme. It's the 1st time we're ever doing a double season on the theme because so many people relate to the stories of transition that we've been sharing. And so I'm hoping yours will also be one that people can relate to today. We always like to start kind of with a big open question, though, which is, how did you get to your current seat? And that could be either as board chair or at WashU or both and or anywhere else in between. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:03:06]: Well, I'll talk a little bit. I think about the WashU transition, and then I'll actually go into my job I mean, my NASPA chairmanship. The WASHI transition was something that happened. I was not looking for a change. I was at Harvey Mudd, small college, university, about 900 students in Southern California where I'm from, and I graduated from the Claremont Colleges. And so I thought I would stay there forever. The pandemic happened, which was a big transition for all of us globally, and I was, one of the people in charge of transitioning through the pandemic and afterwards. And I think that really gave me pause and thought of as the as I learned about the position at WashU, am I ready to go back to an in person with in a small school, which I loved, or am I ready to think about a bigger challenge in terms of the number of students in the middle of the country where there were so many things happening where the issue of my vote would matter. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:08]: My my vote would matter in California, but I think my vote would matter more in the middle of the country at a place like Missouri. And I decided that I was ready for another transition. I survived. At times, I even weirdly thrived during the pandemic, and so I thought I had one more big oomph to give back to the higher education community as well as my own passions for being engaged in communities outside of higher ed, some were different, and so I decided to take the plunge and transition to WashU. My transition to NASH was so fascinating. I've been into organization active since, I think, 1994 when I was a new professional. Never thought I would be the NASPA chair. A lot of people say that. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:51]: I never thought that. I never thought that's gonna be me, in large part because the people who I saw who were chairs didn't look like me. I think they were almost all male at that time and white. And so that just was this didn't seem like a place for me. I also worked at a cross cultural center. So I was in multicultural affairs. Loved, loved, loved it and, again, never saw people like me in those roles. And then people like Lori White, Doris Ching, and others started taking on this role of leading our wonderful organization. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:23]: And that's when I thought, oh, it can happen. It can happen to someone with similar experiences like me. And over time, I decided to, I was nominated for different, leadership roles at NASPA. I also volunteered for others and eventually transitioned to this role. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:39]: Would you mind sharing some of your identities since this is an audio only podcast? And you mentioned not being able to see yourself represented, it'd be great if you'd be willing to share who you are in that space. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:49]: Oh, thanks so much, Jill. Yes. I'm born in the Philippines, so Filipino by birth. I always tell people culturally, my family, just the way we grew up, was so much connected with both Filipino, East Asian, and actually Chicano identities, being where I was in Southern she, her. Grew up as 1st gen limited income and went through college, really. 1st gen limited income through all that went to a significant part. And then I immigrated, so an immigrant to the United States as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:30]: That's a lot of transitions. How have your transitions of identity being in your country of birth for a little while and then coming to the United States at kind of a younger age, how has that experience and that transition impacted your worldview on higher education? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:06:46]: I first came to the United States, I told people and, oh, actually, we were at that time, I guess, we were undocumented too and didn't really have an understanding of that. Right? So as a child coming to United States, they didn't wanna tell people why we were coming. Right? That was a whole danger to that. So there had to be lots of secrecy. And so we literally were told we're just gonna go on this trip or a vacation to see the rest of our family again and be reunited with my parents. And so we went on a plane, came as immigrants, as young children, 10 and 6, my brother and I, and didn't really know. We were made to feel safe by our immediate family. We all lived together, my uncles and aunts. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:23]: I think it was 17 people in a 3 bedroom house for a while even when we first came. Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:29]: That's crowded. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:30]: It was kinda crowded, but, you know, it was kind of a big summer party. Right? But, yes, it was crowded. I think the adults probably felt it more than the children. And so it was wonderful to grow up with cousins and my grandmother, in particular, who really took care of us, and she made such a significant impact in my life. And so went through that, and I remember not knowing. But I remember my aunts and, like, would always say, don't tell people about how you came here. Like, you just came, and we never talked about paper or being legal. It was when I first wanted to work that they said you can't get a job when I was in in my teens. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:02]: Other people could start working, and they couldn't get a permit. And I remember oh my gosh. And then there was the amnesty that both Republicans and Democrats came together back in the day in 19 eighties, and they actually passed an amnesty for people like me who were in the country for a significant period of time, who were able to get to that whole transition of all of a sudden ruining the shadows to, I have my paper. And what did that green that that green card mean was hugely significant and transformative for my family, but we were doing the same things. We were obeying the laws. We were working. Everyone was working. Right? Paying taxes, actually. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:38]: Right? Some of them were working in offices. And then all of a sudden, you get this green card and you get this sense of relief. But, really, I thought that was just the weirdest thing. At at 15 and 16, I remember thinking, this is weird, that that somehow that 1 piece of paper by 1 act would change our whole life when we were living and doing the same things. I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:58]: think that's such an important story within student affairs because we talk so much about supporting our students through their journey for documentation or journey for, you know, financial aid that those stories are also amongst us in the profession. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:19]: Yeah. And I didn't really know how to talk about it. I actually learned a lot from students and staff who I work with who are undocumented and or who are DACA, and they're so brave. And I remember that they talk about it. They advocate for rights, and I just honor that. I honor their experiences. It it's similar to mine, but I didn't know how to voice it or talk about it until I listened to their stories. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:43]: Did you move towards citizenship after your green card? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:45]: Yes. That took a while because I actually wasn't sure. So that one, my family let us make the choice, which I love my dad and my mom, and I I love my family for allowing us as children. Right? We were still under 18 to make that choice for ourselves. But so I didn't become a citizen until after I could vote until, gosh, I was already a full time staff member. I really had to think about it and what that would mean for me. And finally, it was about voting, and I wanted to vote. It was important, and it was actually at a time when a lot of propositions in California were trying to take away rights, like affirmative action, like services to undocumented peoples, and even really immigrants in California that was happening. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:25]: And so I thought, you know what? I need to become a citizen so I can vote. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:29]: Tell us about that transition from being a green cardholder to being able to have that right to vote. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:34]: Oh my gosh. You know, the privilege that you get as a citizen of the United States, the the privilege to vote, it is a right and a privilege, I have to say, but also like traveling. Many places that I could go to I remember I worked for a semester at sea. I took 4 voyages, a semester at sea, and some people had to get visas and other things. And I was like, oh, there's all these countries where if you're a US citizen, you don't have to do any of that. I'm like, oh my gosh. What's that mean? Or being asked questions showing documentation. I could say, yes, I was not born in the United States, but I could show them my passport, and it was like a big easy check. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:06]: And so there was definitely a lot of privilege that I felt that I never take for granted because I used to not have that. And so I always honor that, and I I try to be a good citizen, I think. So Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:18]: I think as American citizens, we often don't have the awareness that, you know, we hold I think it's right now the 7th most powerful passport in the world. There are quite a few ahead now, but that has to do with, you know, being able to enter other nations without applying for a visa or paying for a visa or simply just being allowed access instead of being denied think, puts us in an interesting position. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:46]: Yes. It does. It really does. And I'm not sure we talk about this as much as we should in terms of even in higher education or in other places that we should talk about. Is what does that mean for us, the great responsibility that we should think about having the citizenship. There's the privilege, but also this great responsibility that we need to, like, discuss and really engage in and own, and we need to own it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:09]: Let's talk more about responsibility, which is your NASPA board chairship. Every time we've had on a NASPA board chair, the one big theme that I can draw a line through each of you is that you're really occupying a space of stewardship for the organization rather than driving a personal agenda forward. And I think that's a big shift that happened when NASA shifted from electing a president to electing a board chair. But I'm wondering if you can talk about what you're hoping, the board you will lead will be able to achieve across the next year. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:12:40]: I think that's a great question. I've been thinking a lot. You know, when I ran from NASPA board chair for the listeners, I'll remind them that I ran on 3 things. I still am thinking about that. But the first is, and it is not in any order, healthy excellence. That means in terms of, like, what does well-being look like for our profession and not just the students. Right? We love the students, but this one is more us. This is more us as practitioners. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:03]: It's time for us to think about how do we thrive in our roles, which I love, given all my work life in NASPA in term and student affairs, right, in terms of this is my profession, has always just been. I chose to be in it. But how do we thrive and be healthy, and how do we think of well-being when we have events that we go to? I mean, when you go to a national conference, it's like, oh, yay. 6 AM till, like, 2 AM. Right? Some people go that route. That is not healthy. You know? And and what does that mean? What does that look like? So even things like that. I really want us to engage in our work, in what we do, both the organization and our profession. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:40]: I think the second one is of the mid level. That is our largest as a constituent single constituent. It is the largest membership of our organization. And what does a mid level mean? What competencies? And to break that group down further, right, into, like a mid level could be someone 7 years and someone, like, 28 years in the profession. And I think that's a huge, big gap. And so what does that look like, and how do we both break that down a little bit, and how do we honor the mid level. Right? People are wanna sometimes they're like, I'm happy where I'm at, but I wanna gain different skills. I wanna continue having an amazing life in the work that I do, but what does that mean? But some people in the mid level wanna be like, I wanna become a vice president or I wanna become president. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:24]: Right? And what does that mean? Mid level also for me transitions. Do I stay in the field? Do I leave the field? Right? I think that's where we really have to engage our folks. So mid level for me is huge. And then the 3rd piece is and it's so important now is why higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:38]: Yeah. That's a big one for the US. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:40]: It is. And the impact of higher education, the impact of student affairs in the purpose of students' lives, in young people's lives, and in countries in the civic health of our nation? And I think the answer is higher education. And I think student affairs is actually the the big the change agent and the why of higher ed. I think it's what we do and what we, as professionals, teach our students. And so those are my big three for NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:08]: Let's touch back on that midlevel piece because I think a lot about to the transitions that can feel very, very large in the midlevel from assistant director to associate director to director to perhaps senior executive director. Each of those levels within the midlevel carry their own transitions, their own responsibility differences, and their own growth. So we I think we tend to look at the mid level as a little bit of a bigger monolith than perhaps it actually is within student affairs. I think it's probably you know, there's smaller pieces within it. But what are you hoping for those mid level professionals Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:15:49]: chunk, but we just call them 1 big, big level. Like, the mid level institute. Okay. That gives literally anyone. I mean, what does that actually mean? And so you I wanna make sure that we'd look at the breakdown of what what that is. And what does that mean for NASPA? I think it's being more intentional, not looking at the size of an event, but saying, you know what? We're gonna have mid level based on up to 10 years of experience, and that's gonna be a smaller group, and that's okay. Right? And we're going to look at the competencies that you need based on that versus, like, the competencies that you need. If you were a director executive director mid level, but only with with 12 years experience, but that's completely different than the previous group. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:16:32]: So it's gonna have to it's gonna have to be that our association, our board, our regions, and even our divisions have to look critically at what we're doing for the mid level because we have lumped them too big, I think. And so it's just like, oh, the mid level. And that's, like, kinda the catchall. It shouldn't be the catchall. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:48]: And some of our mid level professionals don't supervise other professionals but supervise students. Some of our mid level professionals supervise large teams, which can include professionals, graduate students, and undergraduate students. It's it's a wide band. And I think my one major complaint with our development as professionals really throughout my entire career is that there's really a lack of education on how to be a strong supervisor. And if you wanna go find that work, you really have to seek it for yourself, and I'd really love to see us develop more of that for our professionals anyway. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:21]: I agree. That's great. See, me too. I'm excited. Gonna jump on the bandwagon. Let let's do this. I Let's go. Let's go. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:27]: Let's go. I love it. I think it's if I could really leave anything the mid level is the big question, and I just wanna make sure. I walk around NASPA, and I'm like, you're a mid level. You're a mid level. You're a mid level. And what does that mean? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]: Yeah. Absolutely. You also mentioned health and well-being as a priority, for our profession. I think that I've been seeing a real slide in terms of balance or integration with work life as of late. We did okay for some, but not for others in the pandemic. And now that we're coming out the other side, it feels like budgets are, you know, constantly being squeezed. People are being asked to do more with less or more people to jobs for the same amount of pay. So how are you hoping to promote that well-being knowing that there's a there you know, let's name it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:15]: There's been of a bit of a morale hit to the profession as of late. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:19]: Yes. No. I agree. It's I think it was already happening definitely before the pandemic. I think it got exacerbated during the pandemic, and it's still here. I told someone, it's not necessarily the money that you throw at people in terms of making them satisfied at their position. The way that things are, I I get it. If you're an entry level, it's not you're not gonna get 6 figures your 1st year. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:42]: I mean, that's not and even for many, it's not gonna be that way necessarily for for a while. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:47]: Or possibly ever in this profession. Yeah. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:49]: Right. Or possibly ever. Thank you. Like, thanks for saying that. And at the end of the day, even if that were that's not necessarily the only thing that's gonna give people job satisfaction. It is being noted for the good work that we do. It doesn't help when you turn on the news and the newspapers, and you're, like, working so hard. You're a resident you're a RCD. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:13]: You just stayed up all night helping save a student's life. You know you made an impact, and then you turn on the news and you have people say, let's close down colleges and universities. Like, okay. No. Don't do that. Right? They just did something great. That doesn't help either to work in a field where people are saying they don't trust you. So one is, like, how do we honor and celebrate our staff, our our fantastic staff members. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:36]: Right? And we have fantastic staff members. I think too is how do we engage it so that the work doesn't become routine? Because there is a boredom factor to it. It's like the same old, same old. I'm not saying necessarily we're gonna make up a new job for someone, but how does it become exciting? How do we make sure that our staff equitably get opportunities to serve, for example, on different committees? So once it you know, so one day, it'll be your turn to serve on a building project. How exciting is that to be the capital projects? Not necessarily just people with titles. There's gonna be opportunities for everyone in different ways. And, also, because one day, they may wanna become director of housing, and you really can't be director of housing without having some kind of capital experience. Or how do we get a staff member to even rotationally supervise other staff? Because we can't make up staff members. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:20:27]: I get it. But instead of them supervising an undergrad, can we say, hey. This year, you're the one that's gonna supervise the graduate students to get more of that experience? Those are the things. And then, also, what kind of benefits, childcare benefits can we give our staff? Tuition benefits. Not every school does tuition benefits. Partner benefits. You know? Kind of we gotta think creatively to get people noted that these are difficult and transformative jobs and that we need to invest in our people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:55]: Absolutely. I think one of the most radical things that I've seen happen as of late is, you know, the the state of Washington has their overtime laws that have gone into effect, which I'm very, very pro. And those laws, even for salaried employees, have limits on how many hours you can work per month, but it's requiring those institutions to redefine what a salaried employee is expected to do, and I think that's really good for the field. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:19]: Yep. I agree. And, also, the other piece, it's on us too. How do we allow ourselves? How do how do I, vice chancellor, like, just tell people it's okay to not check email every day? Sometimes sometimes I I'll talk for myself. I do that. Right? I check it constantly. And one time, I got really sick, and and I did not check it at all because I just couldn't. I couldn't physically check it. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:42]: It would not have been good for me to check it. And then it was fine. The job was fine. My students thrived. It was 2 or 3 days of just really barely, like, looking at my email and barely were really not working. And I realized, okay. Wait a second. It's gonna be okay. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:56]: So it's also teaching ourselves. Give ourselves grace, and we're not gonna work we're not gonna make ourselves work and think work 20 4/7. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:03]: And that really comes straight from the top. It has to start with your president empowering your vice chancellor, vice president to do that, and your vice chancellor, vice president really saying, hey. This is the culture we're gonna set for the organization. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:22:15]: I love it. Unless there's an absolute emergency, my boss does not send this email. So, like, he came in to WashU, and he talked about how he doesn't expect he's not going himself going to do, like, email past a certain time. Like, I wasn't there when it happened, but people talk about that. And it really shifted something, like, past 5 or 6 or, you know, not on weekends. It's fantastic. And I thought it was really sharing a vulnerability for him to talk about the fact that he has a life, and he has a family, and that's important. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:40]: And now the 3rd priority you mentioned was really anchoring into the value of higher education. And I think one of the most important things that NASPA does is advocacy in Washington, DC. So I'll give a shout out to the public policy division and also Diana Ali, who is the policy person with one of the policy people, anyway, within NASBA as well as Jill Dunlap. And they do some incredible work to track all sorts of state policies that are impacting higher education. We just saw a weird bill in Utah that is kind of mirroring what had been going on in Florida, which is also wild to me because I don't understand how it's not being challenged as a violation of the First Amendment in more intense ways right now, but that's a whole other conversation. But I'm wondering, Anna, how you envision NASPA telling the story of higher education or advocating for the value in your year as board chair. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:31]: No. I think that's great. I you know, I think for me, there's several things that we need to do. The importance of the why of college, one of the reasons why I went to college was to help transform my family's future. Right? And, yes, it is about jobs and careers. One of the big reasons that I went to college. I think if I told my dad I was going to go to college, but not really sure what that would mean, he would have been like, wait. We're gonna pulling in all our money to have you go, see how you do so that the rest of your cousins and your brother could go. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:57]: And you're not really sure why your our time and our talent and your time and your money is not gonna I'm like, it would have been unfathomable for my family and for my my background. So I think the why is one of them is the kinds of careers and opportunities for people because of their college degree. When you graduate from college versus when you don't, the wealth accumulation over time, the opportunities is greater. I mean, that is one of the things. But it's not about your major in terms of what your career is going to be. It is about the things that student affairs also does. Right? It's not just one thing. It's about the leadership training that we give them, the empathy that we teach them through experiential things, like being a club and organization president is one way. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:24:42]: Communication skills that we teach them. Right? We engage them to think of differences, like what we have at WashU, dialogue across differences. And what does that mean? To dialogue with someone is something that we in student affairs engage and teach them to live with someone from a completely different background and then to be able to share. Sharing is caring. And then to think about your well-being, right, in different ways. The things that we teach in student affairs allows for an individual to go through college and learn those skills and to be an amazing leader outside in the world, to look at their careers in profound ways. Not just, I'm just gonna work and get my pay, but I'm gonna work. I'm gonna transform. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:25:24]: I'm gonna be a leader. I'm gonna be engaged in community. And a lot of that is because of the 4 years or so that we have taught them in colleges, whether it's a 2 year college or a 4 year college or even, you know, doctoral programs. Right? So I think that we hold the key, and we don't talk about, we don't share those stories. I think student affairs, we are so humble, and we make sure that we lift up our students. But in doing so, I think we've forgotten to lift up the profession itself and explain what we do. We need to explain what we do. I don't think that we should celebrate the fact that our own parents don't know what we do. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:00]: My parents don't know what I do. Right? Right? And we and we, yeah, and we laugh, and we celebrate it. Like, this is that career, and it's like, no. That's not good. People know what other people do. We should talk about what we do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:10]: And I think I'd be one of the very first to say that the degree is important, but it doesn't define the future as much as some of the soft skills do. I think I've shared on the show before, but my bachelor's degree is in music performance, and it's not something that I anchor into daily for the skills that I need in my job. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:27]: I should have you sing for us, though. Yeah. I'll be sending. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:31]: Well, I'll share kind of a secret. If you look hard enough, you can find me singing on TikTok and YouTube. But you have to look really hard, and it's not under my real name. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:41]: It's kinda funny. I mean, I don't really use those 2 apps as much, but okay. What is that? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:47]: What was your bachelor's in honor? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:49]: International visits, actually. And I and I'd use those skills that I learned today. I've always used it. I've learned so many things about balance sheets and what matters. And it's funny because when I say that, it's not necessarily that money matters. It's actually what matters in terms of the values that you put into time and treasure. And so that's what I learned. But so I utilize it a lot in my in my daily work, but I'm not in a business career. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:15]: Does that if that makes sense? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:17]: Are there any words of wisdom, wishes, or thoughts that you'd like to share with the NASPA membership in general? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:24]: Someone I learned this as a faculty member from a participant at the last APIDA Leadership Institute. And I wanna say, I remember this person said, and I wish I would I could know who it is, but I wanna honor the person who who said this. She said someone told her once to fall in love with her staff, and I've been thinking about that a lot. And for me, for my words of wisdom would be fall in love with the field. Remember why you chose it because we chose this field, and fall in love with it. And if you're thinking that, you know, I'm having a really hard time right now. I fell in love with it once, but I'm thinking of a breakup or a break. That's okay. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:28:05]: But then find support and help about that and think through, do you stay with it, which is fine. Do you leave it, which is also fine. But if you're gonna stay with it, learn, and relearn how to fall in love with it. Because for me, that's what helped me thrive every day. For some of us, falling in love with it means really loving our student. But for others, it really is the actual work, itself. And so whatever it is, remember it and fall in love with it again because that's ultimately what's gonna keep you engaged and thriving in this profession. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:37]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:43]: Thanks so much, Joe. Glad to be back in the NASPA world. And this week, I wanna share a few policy updates that we've heard from our policy division at NASPA. Many of you may have heard that president Biden has issued another continuing resolution keeping the government funded through March. And so at this point, Congress has not reached a compromise to formalize a spending bill for the 2023 fiscal year. For the 2023 fiscal year, as funding expired at the end of September, the Department of Education held negotiated rulemaking sessions on federal Title IX program integrity, and institutional quality and trio eligibility in the month of January. During the subcommittee session on program funding funding involving funding connected to student meal plans and including books and supplies costs as a part of tuition and fees. Several members of the trio subcommittee expressed reservations about expanding eligibility for college prep trio programs to undocumented students due to tenuous political climate due to the tenuous political climate. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:58]: NASPA believes that extending trio programs to undocumented students is an important step in setting a federal precedent for equitable college access. The Office of Postsecondary Education is seeking comments from institutions on effective strategies for college student mental health and substance use and substance use disorders. This request includes how higher education institutions have transformed campus cultures with inclusive support strategies, how state agencies have supported behavioral health, identified challenges in implementing solutions, and information to guide future work of the Department of Education. Comments are due by February 25th. The Department of Education has also issued a request for information to assess sexual violence on campus. The RFI seeks responses on best practices for sexual assault prevention and response in education in educational institution in educational institutions. Topics include forming response teams, providing survivor resources, preventing and responding to sexual and dating violence, developing sex education and staff training programs, culturally responsive support approaches, engaging communities in prevention efforts and federal support of these initiatives. Comments are due by March 11th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:18]: Finally, the Biden administration has highlighted key topical issues in relation to priorities for the 2024 presidential election year. Earlier this month marked the 51st the 51st anniversary of Roe v Wade in and the White House and the White House task force on reproductive health care access released a fact sheet on new actions to increase contraception care coverage. This includes a continued stance that the administration will support the FDA the FDA approval of medication abortion, which is currently which is under current scrutiny by the Supreme Court. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back. Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:46]: I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:19]: Chris, we always appreciate you sharing what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Anna, we have reached our lightning round, so I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:30]: I'm ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:30]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:36]: Beyonce's new song. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:37]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:40]: A doctor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:41]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:43]: Doris Ching. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:45]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:47]: Oh my gosh. It is Elizabeth Witt's The Tapestry, the Culture book that I can't remember the actual title, but love, love, love that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:55]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:58]: Oh my goodness. That is a good one. Is it awful to say Dexter? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:03]: Everyone had their thing. That was a that was a time in our lives. Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:11]: I think this one, actually. I did. I'm not a I have to say I'm not a podcast person, but I was like, I'm gonna listen to this one because this is my field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]: We appreciate that. And then finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:24]: Oh, just saying hi to personal is my family. Thank you so much for your support. I appreciate you. And then my professional, my chosen NASPA family, you are all amazing. I love you all, and I can't wait to see you at all the future events conferences, including my speech when I take the gavel at NASPA in Seattle. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:42]: Anna, we know you're gonna have an incredibly busy year ahead, but if anyone in the membership would like to reach you personally, how can they find you? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:49]: Oh, sure. They can actually go into my social media, Instagram, AKGonzales 327, and also my email, anna.gonzales, with a z at the end, atwustl, w u s t l, dotedu. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:01]: Anna, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Thank you. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA .org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:34]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support support

In this season of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast, we had the privilege of delving deep into the world of job placement and career development in higher education with D'Najah Thomas, a dynamic figure leading The Placement Exchange (TPE). Her insights reveal a holistic and innovative approach to connecting talent with opportunity in student affairs. Transitions in Student Affairs: A Modern Take It's no secret that the job market in higher education has undergone significant shifts, particularly with the advent of virtual platforms. Thomas brings a refreshing perspective to the conversation, emphasizing the need for psychological safety and well-being during the job search. As TPE adapts to an increasingly digital landscape, it prioritizes mental health by advocating for scheduled breaks and creating virtual lounges for decompression—a much-needed change welcomed by both candidates and employers. The Crafting of TPE's Identity Thomas's journey to the directorship at TPE wasn't a conventional one. With a background in marketing, public relations, and a stint in the non-profit sector, she found herself drawn to the world of student affairs through a combination of chance, economic circumstances, and personal choices—highlighting that a nonlinear career path can lead to fulfilling leadership roles. Her diverse professional experience, enhanced by her empathy and commitment to supporting others, is now channeled into redefining TPE as a central hub for career development. She envisions TPE as a platform that not only facilitates job matching but also serves as a resource for continuous professional growth. Empowering Job Seekers and Recruiters Thomas is keen on equipping job seekers with tools for self-advocacy and proactive searching. TPE's year-round job board and the on-demand TPE Academy sessions affirm her resolve to meet modern job seekers where they are. Similarly, she encourages employers to highlight their values and culture authentically, showing that recruiting in student affairs must evolve beyond mere job advertising to a more strategic and narrative-driven approach. Looking Ahead: A Future of Innovation and Inclusivity  With initiatives like TPE Talks addressing hot topics in employment and the WRAP Session focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, TPE is broadening its impact beyond job placement. Thomas reimagines a future where TPE continually adapts to uphold a vibrant, healthy, and diverse workforce in student affairs. Thomas's work with TPE exemplifies strategic transformation driven by understanding and meeting the needs of its community. The focus on accessibility, storytelling, and mental health showcases TPE's commitment to harmonizing candidate and employer expectations within an evolving digital world.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. We've got a really awesome episode for you today all about the placement exchange or TPE for short. So I'm pleased to welcome D'Najah Pendergrass Thomas, sheher, who is a practitioner and whose work is centered around organizational behavior with a focus on recruitment, professional development, and career advancement. She's committed to helping organizations and communities bring about transformational change in these areas. And currently, she is serving as the director of the placement exchange, which is also a partnership of AUCHO-I and NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: In this world, Inesha works directly and closely with a planning committee of professionals from across the field of higher education and student affairs to drive equitable and inclusive practice and innovation to deliver transformative networking communities, knowledge resources, job search, and recruiting experiences that cultivate and sustain a diverse and robust workforce in higher education. Before coming to TPE, D'Najah worked for 9 years in residence life and housing. Prior to that, she served as a marketing and communications practitioner in the nonprofit sector with Goodwill Industries of Southern Piedmont, The Florida Bar, and The Florida Psychological Association. D'Najah is past president of North Carolina Housing Officers or NCHO, and she also served in other leadership roles with NCHO and the Southeastern Association of Housing Officers or SEHO. She was a 2018 participant in NASPA's Mid Managers Institute and served as faculty for SEHO's 2021 regional entry institute or RELI. D'Najah also finished her term with a Kujo AI's 2021, 22 Leadership Academy cohort. A native of Charlotte, North Carolina, D'Naisha holds a master's of divinity from Duke Divinity School, a master of science in sport management from Florida State University, and a bachelor of science in public relations from Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina. Whether you are a candidate looking for a job this year or thinking about looking for a job this year or an employer who has an entry to mid senior level job to post, this episode, I hope, will be a wonderful resource for you so you can learn a little bit more about how the placement exchange process has grown and changed over time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: Don't miss this one. Hope you enjoy our conversation. D'Najah, welcome to SA Voices. D'Najah Thomas [00:02:33]: Thank you for having me. I am excited to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:36]: I'm really thrilled to help you have you on the season at this moment in time, especially in our theme of transitions in your role at TPE, I think that you personally hold a lot of keys to success for people in the profession. And especially given the changes that are happening in TPE right now, it's a great time to talk about all of the things. But before we talk about all of the TPE things, I'd love to get to know you a little bit better because you've had some interesting transitions in your career as well from housing professional and, I believe, training as an attorney to the TPE space now. So tell us about you. D'Najah Thomas [00:03:10]: I was an attorney. It's not quite that exciting, but I will tell you a little bit about what I've done before coming to TPE. My background is actually actually in marketing and public relations. So I did undergraduate work in North Carolina with great dreams of working for an NFL team. I thought that I would travel and do on-site communication and public relations. And so that led me to get a master's in sport management at Florida State University down in Tallahassee, Florida. And then that program was my 1st interaction with student athletes. And so while working on my degree, I worked with at risk student athletes in academic services. D'Najah Thomas [00:03:45]: And I had the luxury of graduating in 2008, which if anyone can remember, was the recession. And so I humbly took my brand new master's degree home to North Carolina and started searching for a job. And so I spent a good bit of time volunteering while looking for work simply because my mom, as an educator, was of the background. You get stuck in your own head when you're looking for a job and you can get discouraged. And she suggested that I volunteer. And so I volunteered like it was a full time job and landed in non profit work, particularly crisis support services in North Carolina. And to be transparent, if you live in the South, particularly North Carolina, it is, still called the Bible Belt. It's deeply steep in religion, particularly working in crisis support. D'Najah Thomas [00:04:27]: The questions were typically existential. How did this happen? Why could this happen to me? Oftentimes, how could a god be god allow this to happen to me? And in the course of serving people, I thought I will either get a master's in counseling or maybe a master's in divinity. And I chose the route of divinity school and so I landed at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And they mentioned this opportunity to be a graduate hall director while in the program. And so I thought anything that will help me save money on the cost of this degree is going to be a wonderful opportunity. And so I landed in residence life and housing as a grad hall director while working on my master's of divinity. And so during the 3 years that I spent at Duke, I realized that college students were amazing. They are complex. D'Najah Thomas [00:05:09]: They have great demand. They are extremely diverse, and they were very much and are very much looking for a relationship, mentorship, and support. And so as a grad student, I found they liked me a little better than the professional coordinator because grad students are where they wanna be. They're gonna graduate and they wanna get master's and doctoral degrees. And so, residents and RAs alike would just hang out in my apartment. I would host programming for them, all while working on this master's of divinity. And my 3rd year in divinity school, a full time position opened. And I was eligible because I had the previous master's and so I did what I honestly would not recommend to anyone. D'Najah Thomas [00:05:44]: I worked full time on that last year and stayed a full time student because I just didn't wanna pass up the opportunity to be able to get the position at Duke. And so that is how I landed full time in student affairs. I was a resident life coordinator at Duke University. And so stayed in Durham for about 5 years and moved on to Wake Forest as an assistant director, staying in residence life and housing. Had the joy working under doctor Kitty Ryu, who was a great leader and really believed in what we were trying to do in Residence Life and Housing. She's NASPA famous. She is NASPA famous and rightfully so. And so in my the 1st year and a half in my role, we actually did a full reorg in our department. D'Najah Thomas [00:06:21]: We did not have full time residence hall coordinators. And so in the spring of 2019, we fully reorgued, went to TBE in LA, and bought on 7 new full time live in staff members, which was pretty important because halfway through their 1st year the pandemic happened. And we recognized that had we not had full time staff living in, there's just no way we would have survived supporting students, in the ways that we needed to. And so the next part I shared transparently because I think it matters with how I work with PPE and how I approach talking about career trajectory with people. I got pregnant and had a pre work for baby in the middle of the pandemic. And so, residence life and housing was very demanding at that time and work and life just were not meshing. And so, I had to start to look for other opportunities and very regrettably didn't wanna have to leave residence life and housing, but knew, you know, you have to make some life choices. And so the position with CPE opened up and I thought, gosh, this will be a wonderful opportunity to help meet our field at a place that was a point of crisis. D'Najah Thomas [00:07:18]: Right? Trying to retain staff in the middle of the pandemic. Campuses were triaging vacancies everywhere. And it would give me the flexibility to think about what I needed to do to be a mom to a brand new baby. And so I applied, interviewed, and in about 6 weeks found myself in the role as Director of the Placement Exchange. And so I bring to the role a little bit of nonprofit work, a little bit of student athletics work, and a whole lot of housing and residents' life experience coupled with supervision, hiring, and retention. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:45]: That's an incredible journey, and especially to an organization like TPE where you can keep a lot of the skills you learned in your on campus experience by also bringing your nonprofit based experience. And I'm realizing now where I accidentally referenced an attorneyship, and it's because you were working with The Florida Bar as well as Florida Psychological Association. And so with all of those experiences kind of creating a melange of things for you, what is life like now given that you're serving professionals instead of students? D'Najah Thomas [00:08:15]: Life is amazing. Part of my work with TPE has really helped me solidify what I work with candidates around, which is understanding your story, your values, and your overall professional goal. And so when I look back at my career, I think the thread that ties it all together is relationships and investing in the success of others. And so for a while, that was student athletes. Before that, that was in the sports arena, that transition to serving people in the nonprofit world, coming back to my students at Duke, and then becoming a supervisor, particularly being very invested in the career trajectory of those that I supervise. And so, now I find myself with TPE being able to concentrate and be less of a generalist, but to spend so much time thinking about how to support the goals and the career trajectory of both who are doing work that I love so much. And so now my days are are filled with understanding what's coming out of SHRM and coming out of corporate HR and following trends on our campus and in our field and thinking about how TPE can now, in essence, be a career hub for the profession. How can we say to practitioners that this is your career trajectory? PPE is where you can come to develop the skill, review this resource, engage in the support so that you can continue to be a knowledgeable and competent and competitive candidate? And on the other side of that coin is how can we say to employers recruiting, retention, and advancement of staff really is a free market. D'Najah Thomas [00:09:42]: Meaning, they've got a set of skills and a salary they're looking for, and you now have to showcase how you are a place that people want to work at, and that the package you have to to offer is competitive. And so, how do you look at your efforts around recruiting, and interviewing, and hiring, and onboarding, and retaining staff, such that when you sit down with a candidate, you can say, This isn't just any assistant director role. The assistant director role on this campus is going to provide you with these opportunities, support you in this way such that you don't wanna walk away from this opportunity. So that is how everything I do is centered. How do we really equip these practitioners? And then how do we empower employers to see themselves as great places to work and be able to really share that with candidates in the process? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:24]: Now TPE is short for the placement exchange. I think it's its own living acronym. Now people just kinda know what it means if you've been in the field for a hot minute. But it's also a joint partnership of Akuhoai and NASPA and also serves as a hub for professionals who are not affiliated with either of those organizations as people search for student affairs in higher ed positions. What is the experience of a candidate today who's utilizing TPE? D'Najah Thomas [00:10:52]: Sure. I hope that the profession as a whole. It experience even though we are serving the profession as a whole. It has expanded. We now have a job board that is 20 fourseven, three sixty five. So I hope people aren't up in the middle of night. You feel the urge at midnight, you can go to the job board and look for that next job. If you do that on the weekends or whatever that looks like for your schedule, it's available. D'Najah Thomas [00:11:22]: And it's got the features that now allow you to upload your profile and resume at a level of comfort. So it can be fully visible by employers who are looking to hire. It can be one level down, which is what we call confidential, in that they can see the content of your resume, but not your identifying information. But if I were to message you as an employer and you choose to do so, you can then disclose who you are. Or it can be fully private, meaning it's there and as you see an employer that you may have interest in, you can share that resource with them. That's something that has been added on since what we've been known for. The once a year in person week of interviewing that happened the week before NASPA. So I appreciate now that we recognize, right, people are looking for a job 365 days a year. D'Najah Thomas [00:12:02]: We cannot make people wait until March to get their next job. So being able to offer the job board with some customizable options for candidates is something that we're really proud of. The other thing that I'm really proud of for candidates, and I hope they would say they are appreciating, is how we've taken the TPE Academy and really tried to make it more accessible for the year round experience. So it used to be being a part of the academy was from November to March, it was much more like a mentorship experience and culminated being in person. Now we create the sessions on demand and candidates can go to the YouTube channel and access any one of those 6 sessions. Right? So again, at a time that works for you, whether it's October, February, or April, you can have access to those resources in a way that your lifestyle and fits your schedule. So again, just thinking about the things that used to be centered around that once a year experience and expanding those to be accessible anytime a candidate would need that. We still keep our Candidate Development Subcommittee and so we still offer those year round webinars. D'Najah Thomas [00:13:00]: And what I appreciate about those sessions is they don't feel very stiff and structured. The content is there but our presenters and speakers are very engaging and the pace still allows for question and answer, learning opportunities, almost like a workshop. Like, we may pause you and have you do an activity, do some reflection, and engage. And so we are still trying to make sure that we serve on a larger scale to everyone who may need us, but not without having that personal experience and that interpersonal connection that we've been known for. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:30]: So the addition of the psychological safety piece, I think, is incredibly important from a candidate experience, especially knowing that there's a lot of reasons that someone might not be able to share with their current employer that they're looking or maybe they just don't want to. That's also fine. I also really appreciate the expansion of the academy and this on demand element because it really is meeting candidates where they're at in the modern era of search. So for those who are listening who may be newer in the profession, my 1st job experience job hunting experience in student affairs was at TPE in the year that ACPA and NASPA were last combined for a joint conference. That thing was bananas. I think I did 45 to 60 interviews in 3 days. I had a pair of extra tennis shoes in my bag. I had physical thank you notes with me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:21]: There were candidate physical Dropbox mailbox systems that were just organized but chaotic at the same time. And it was also a place where I feel like more of the candidates were like myself in their 1st or second job search, not necessarily in their mid or senior level spaces. And I believe that has shifted quite a lot in the last several years. So who's in the TPE now in terms of the level and type of position that candidates are looking at and employers are hiring for? D'Najah Thomas [00:14:50]: Sure. You know, you shared a memory that just stuck with me. I was not at that particular one, but I remember being in San Antonio. And the way the my my boots. It was huge. And you have the candidate's a through m, n through z, and there were just hundreds and hundreds of people and hundreds of tables. And when we decided to go virtual, what you just shared is what we really listen to from candidates. I had a lot of listening sessions and I listened to people say I had 30, 40 interviews and, I was so stressed that an interview would go terrible and I didn't have time to, like, gather myself. D'Najah Thomas [00:15:31]: And then it was a trickle down effect or I was at a table and I had a hard time focusing because the interview was right next to me or sitting in the waiting room and hearing people talk about their number of interviews and struggling with comparison. And I remember as an employer just reminding candidates, you don't need every job, you just need 1. And I remember pausing interviews and saying, I don't think you have the stamina to show up well, and we reschedule you. And so what I appreciate now about us being virtual is the ways in which we are advocating for protecting the schedule of both candidates and employers. So we do last the full week, but we offer block. Our schedule builds and breaks. It's virtual, so we can't regulate everyone. But we highly recommend that people take the lunch break, take the afternoon break, adhere to the block, pause and go to some of the round tables. D'Najah Thomas [00:16:17]: And right now that we are virtual, you can go into a space. When an interview ends, don't book back to back. Give yourself a chance to go into a space, decompress, review that, drop into the candidate lounge, talk with 1 of the subcommittee members to just kind of help you have a better mental health experience through the process. And we actually do that for employers as well because we have to remember that people are away from their responsibilities on campus while doing these interviews. And I remind employers that they are being interviewed as much as they are interviewing candidates. And so you get distracted, you get fatigued. Some of these things that we are embedding because we are virtual are to help you show up, your best version as an employer, to the candidates who are giving you their time and trying to tell their story to you. And so I really do appreciate that the virtual space is allowing us to prioritize mental health, psychological safety, and well-being of everyone who's currently involved, for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:12]: The experience of the employer shifting as well, I think, is a very big deal because I think, especially as younger professionals, our instinct at the beginning is, you know, my job is to show up and show out, and the employer's job is to judge me. At least that's how I felt in my first TPE. And now it's I think we're trying to do more to push more of a balance that it is a mutual understanding of if this is gonna be the right job match. From the employer side, what else is new or changing for them? D'Najah Thomas [00:17:41]: Sure. From the employer side, a few things are new with the virtual experience. We really did listen to them 2 employers when they said, you know, it may be virtual, but we used to have reception. We wanna build that warm connection. If we can't physically touch or see other same spaces with candidates, how are they going to feel our full spirit, our vibe? We used to have swag. We used to fill mailboxes with all these things. And very lovingly, I said, there are ways that you do this now, but it has to actually be with the meat and the substance of who you are. And so you actually have to help candidates want to work for you because of the substance of what you offer, and you can do that. D'Najah Thomas [00:18:20]: So my coaching conversations with employers now are a lot about, tell me about your team, tell me about your campuses, tell me about the affinity spaces and support that is available to your staff. Talk to me about your professional development opportunities. Because this generation of candidates is very interested clear pathways to advancement? What is their supervision and leadership going to be like? And so I said employers, your booth, it's the sims. So that part is still fun. Your booth is fully branded. You can hyperlink it to videos. You can show a day in the life of. You can showcase your campus and your teams in ways virtually that you actually couldn't do in person. D'Najah Thomas [00:18:58]: You couldn't pick up your campus. Everybody just had the floor extensions with their brand on it. So now with your booth, you can use imagery, but you are linking to all of the resources and information that your campus has to offer in a very nicely branded way. But on top of that, your engagement with candidates is now about who you are, what you believe, what you value, and what the candidate experience will be. And so, in short, I'm finding that we are helping employers learn what it means to recruit, which is something other industries have been doing for some time, but I do think it's very new to student affairs. We knew that people were going to go to the graduate program. They were going to graduate, and they were going to need an entry point. And we just kind of knew that TBE would be that funnel. D'Najah Thomas [00:19:41]: But we know that the pipeline into the profession now looks different. And so virtual really does allow us to still serve that pipeline but also expand. Like your earlier question was, who all the CPE serve now? I am excited to say that we serve the full profession. We really do stop before you kind of get to the executive search firm level. That's not our wheelhouse. But up to director level positions, they are there in terms of employers posting those positions and candidates that are currently in the candidate pool. And I say that very excitedly because we are really carving out supporting those who want to do a nationwide search. There are lots of regional groups and associations that can do in person placement. D'Najah Thomas [00:20:16]: And I think that's wonderful. If you know you're gonna stay in the Northeast or the Southwest, and you can be at your conference and have that interview process, absolutely go for it. But if you know you're in California and you want to look at Illinois and Michigan and Virginia and Texas or a couple of different states and you don't want to break the bank as a candidate or if as an employer you want to cast the largest net as possible and you don't want to have to pick up and take a a team of 6 or 7 or 8 people, the virtual platform allows us to do that for everyone who wants to do it. Being virtual now lets us say that engaging in CPE is free for all candidates. That was a huge one. I just feel like it says something about an industry when you have to pay to get your job. We all want people to have to pay, let alone go into debt or use a credit card to get their next job. And so virtual allowed us to say, if you're looking for a job and you wanna meet some great employers, create a free candidate account, participate in the career fair, let our employers recruit you, and then in a few weeks, come back, have those interviews and hopefully find your next job. D'Najah Thomas [00:21:23]: Same way we say to employers, if you are a community college or a small college a limited budget, you are on the same footing as the flagship institution for whatever state you're in. It's the substance that you have that puts you in front of candidates and allows you to say to them, we have something that you want, and we would love to have you be a part of our team. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:42]: I just wanna reiterate one thing that you said, which is that the placement exchange process as a candidate is free to you to use, which is such a critical point that wasn't always true. I believe I registered for a fee when I originally went through many years ago. It wasn't high if I recall, but, you know, it's still a fee. So I really appreciate that that is a major positive change for candidates. So if you're looking for a position this year, please register with TPE. It's totally free for you. Now if I'm an employer, let's talk about how much it might cost my institution. D'Najah Thomas [00:22:16]: Again, I can say it's probably going to cost you less than you ever remember. Like, full transparency, when I went to LA in 2019, we were in the 1,000 of dollars to have our booth, take our staff, to pack up all the slack, to stay in the hotel. Employer booths are only $475, And that is to keep it comparable with the actual technology that we use for the platform. And so in that employer booth, you can have up to six recruiter seats and each recruiter can run their own schedule. So if anybody remembers CPE in person, it was a table and you often ran 2 interviewers per table. And some employers ran 2 tables. You can do that with 6 recruiters and 1 booth. So you can have up to 6 interviews if they're individuals or 3 interviews if you run them in pairs for 475. D'Najah Thomas [00:23:04]: We are not in the business of trying to to bankrupt anyone. We actually want to make it as accessible as possible for our job seekers and our employers because that is how the field wins. When we can bring the largest pool of talent together and the largest pool of hiring employers together, I believe that both sides will be presented with option and possibility and increase the likelihood that we make really strong career matches across the field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:30]: I love that. That's amazing. D'Najah Thomas [00:23:31]: It makes me smile. So I'm glad it makes you smile. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:34]: Absolutely. So as we look forward then, there's already been, I believe, at least 1, if not 2, virtual events that have happened this year. There's another couple major ones coming back up, including one that will be concurrent with the NASPA annual conference. So this episode should be airing right before the conference begins. If I haven't registered for TPE yet, but I want to, what do I do now? D'Najah Thomas [00:23:58]: All you have to do is go to our website, which has not changed. We're never gonna change that web address. It is www.theplacementexchange.org. You will see virtual placement highlighted on our web page. Click that live green button, register, and join us. Registration takes about 30 minutes. Setting up your booth only takes 30 minutes. I did it just to be sure I was being truthful when I tell an employer anyone can do it, anyone can do it, and then you have full access to to our registered candidates and the ability to participate in placement. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:30]: You mentioned value congruence as probably one of the number one things that this generation of job seekers needs in their employer. How are you seeing employers demonstrate their values in a way that is really digestible for candidates? D'Najah Thomas [00:24:43]: I think, again, it starts with us introducing career fairs. We really wanted there to be something between I see a job on a site, I do my own kind of investigative research, and I hope they interview. I believe in the power of storytelling and human interaction. And so us since starting the career fair before placement has really been a great place for employers to do that. So there's what I see on your booth in terms of your printed materials about your your campus. I am now clicking to have a conversation with a recruiter and we are really working on helping candidates understand the questions to ask and the follow-up questions to ask. Ask. And so it is developing those conversational skills to engage in active recruiting. D'Najah Thomas [00:25:23]: And so I may say, you know, I read these are the values of your institution. An employer may say, yes. We value creativity, exploration, leadership, and service. Now in our in our recruiting chat, I can say, well, tell me a little more about how the value of service is played out on your campus. Often times employers are gonna talk about the student experience. And I say, as a candidate, when you listen, tell me what it is you're really wanting to hear and how do you have the question to get to that answer. So we kind of walk through scenarios and then the oh, they talked about the student experience. Well, they that sounded wonderful for students. D'Najah Thomas [00:25:56]: Can you tell me a little bit more about how this value, is experienced or plays out for your staff? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]: Mhmm. Mhmm. D'Najah Thomas [00:26:03]: So it's just keeping the art of engagement. And we do the same with employers because this is new to engage in recruiting as well. So we talk about when you when you choose recruiters, you want to choose people who, a, understand the values, the mission, the vision of your university, who can talk about their own experience with them to showcase that congruence. And I recommend you collect stories of your colleagues, of your team, of your peers that can validate that or affirm that. I also talk to my employers about transparency to say these things are so aspirational and here's where we are in working towards this. I think this is a wonderful generation of candidates that appreciate the honesty and the transparency. So even if you tell me you're not there yet, if you can tell me how you're working towards it, I'm gonna appreciate that you didn't tell me a lie. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:50]: Yeah. For sure. D'Najah Thomas [00:26:50]: That you have that awareness, and I have an understanding of how you're still trying to get there. And so it's not a ding to you as an employer if you haven't hit everything inspirationally. It's your ability in preparation to talk about how you're working towards it and what you have in place to bridge that gap if you're not there yet. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:08]: Let's talk a little bit about the numbers. How many candidates and employers and jobs are in the TPE portal at any one given time and particularly during high season of hiring? D'Najah Thomas [00:27:19]: Sure. At any given time, we average between two 50 and 375 for jobs monthly. And so I give the average because we have new jobs posted. We offer 30, 60, 90 day postings. So we're in that 2 to 300 range on average per month. We currently have about 380 candidate resumes on the job board. That's the year round component. And we have about 600 employers who are in our system. D'Najah Thomas [00:27:45]: They may not be currently posting at the time, but they have posted in the past calendar year. Those numbers are continuing to grow as we continue to, a, inform people that we have a job work because a lot of people still just know us at the event. So as we continue to tell that story, those numbers increase. I am excited with placement that we are seeing numbers to start to increase to what they used to be. I told you the background in PR and marketing comes in hand. It helps me develop patients. Our field loves the things that have been a part of our journey, And we know that change is a process. And so replacement, our candidate numbers are are very quickly getting to what we are familiar with, closer to 300, 400 candidates. D'Najah Thomas [00:28:22]: Our employers are slow to adopt. And so our hope is as we continue to grow and employers continue to have that positive experience, a, that their testimonial, their validation, and their word-of-mouth will help. We are also marketing though, making sure employers know our candidates are getting it. We're getting up to 300 plus candidates almost to 4. And so right now, we actually are almost a 100 registered employers, which means there's almost a 100 positions. So it's a position per employer that they're being hired for. And they are from early career to senior, mid level, or senior level positions. And so I am just telling employers, you are looking for the candidate. D'Najah Thomas [00:28:56]: I can tell you where they are. They are leaning into technology. They are leaning into equitable access. They are leaning into spaces that fit better with their time and their schedule to look for a job. And so we are pacing it year by year to help employers see that we've heard what they were looking for from the in person experience, and we can't copy and paste, but we can find ways that technology allows us to reach that goal. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:17]: I always say that transition and change always takes at least 3 years in higher education. 1 year to formulate and push the change out, the 2nd year to work out the issues or the kinks with it, and the 3rd year to let it fly and see if it actually works. It's because our profession is so cyclical. The hiring quote unquote season in higher ed really only happens once a year en masse, but it is it is all year round. But you're not gonna see if the impact is is what you're hoping for for a while, and that's just true for anything in higher ed, I think. So I'm hoping that our show and featuring TPE can help others discover you again. D'Najah Thomas [00:29:53]: Well, I appreciate that very much. This role as a former practitioner on the campus has helped me lean into we talk about redefining success. We easily say it, and then you have experiences that require you to live that amount. Up. Rebranding and restructuring CVE has really challenged me, and I've embraced what it means to redefine success. And so right now, redefining success is not the highest registration numbers. It is listening to those who were leaning into this process, say that it worked and they experienced an improved week going through the process in this way, hearing people say, oh, this felt very innovative, or this was engaging, or this was fun. Words that we used to hear from the in person experience to now hear them in the virtual experience lets me know that we're headed in the right direction. D'Najah Thomas [00:30:34]: So I'm very much leaning into the feedback from our participants to make sure that we are hitting the mark with what equals a quality experience for them. And I believe that as more people have the quality experience, the numbers will do what they need to do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:47]: Well, I think the number one thing that virtual space creates is accessibility. Right? And that's accessibility in a lot of different ways. But when I was, working as an AVPDOS at a large public university, you know, it made the TBE process possible for us because we couldn't afford to send 7, 8, 9 recruiters to the experience. But we could say, okay. Let's pay 1 fee, and we can post our hall director positions. We can post some assistant director positions, and we can try to find our people, this way. So I think that's that's all good stuff. What other transitions and developments have come about for TPE that you want our listeners to know about? D'Najah Thomas [00:31:25]: Sure. I think the the next big piece is what's happening in terms of programming and in the social media space. So we are about placement. We absolutely want people to connect employer to employee and find those jobs and make those hires. But again, as we think about being a career resource, it also means creating space to talk about and address the factors that impact our ability to retain staff and advance staff in the field. And there are some very role factors that we have to think about broadly if we're going to get the talent and keep the talent. And so, a big thing that I'm proud of is called TBE Talks. It's from our 2 planning committee chairs. D'Najah Thomas [00:32:00]: Every last Friday of the month, they get on the TPE Instagram live account and they talk about hot topics. So anything that is making someone think about, I don't wanna do this job anymore or what's driving my search for the next job, they talk about it. And I don't hang out in that space because I really wanted to be a free space for peer to peer conversation and engagement, and those conversations have been wonderful. The 2nd piece that will launch in March that I am extremely excited about is the one that I get to host. They're called TPE WRAP Session. And the sole subject of those conversations is around diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, and how that is impacting our ability to recruit, retain, and advance practitioners. And so each month, I'll have a guest join me to have that conversation. And so it varies. D'Najah Thomas [00:32:46]: My first guest is going to be someone who was the director of HR and DEI for a West Coast campus. And so for people to be able to hear how campuses are doing this work, get some ideas, ask them questions, and then I'll talk to some practitioners about their journey and their experience in the field. But I really want us to create spaces to just talk about the importance of accessibility, the importance of DEI, and how that's impacting the talent in our field, whether they're staying or going, moving up, or whatever that looks like. I think there's no harm in having a space to really have that niche conversation. So those are 2 big things coming up that I'm really excited about is offering to the field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:25]: And repeat for us how people can listen into those dialogues? D'Najah Thomas [00:33:29]: Sure. If you want to listen in to TPE Talks, you can go to the TPE Instagram account on Fridays at 2 pm and join them live. If you want to join us for the wrap sessions, they happen the last Thursday of each month. And again, our website is magic. You go to our website and go to events. You'll find the link to join those when we are live on those last Thursdays of the month. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:53]: Any final thoughts on TPE's evolution from you, D'Najah Thomas [00:34:02]: 3rd year in the role, and this is the 3rd iteration of TPE in a virtual space is what you really alluded to. Right? We were really trying to fine tune what it means. And although it's a 3rd iteration, what I would say to the field is it's just an indicator that we're listening and that we are committed to refining it until we create what it is the field needs. And so I am excited for TPE to continue to evolve, to be a career hub for our field because I think that is the way forward for making sure that we can sustain our workforce. And not just have those bodies in seats, but make sure that our workforce is fulfilled and healthy and vibrant and able to have the creativity and the flexibility to do the work that they need to do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:50]: Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on in NASPA as we prepare for the 2024 annual conference. One of the things that I wanted to talk about because we're talking about the placement exchange today is that there are opportunities within the placement exchange for your organizations to be able to find those employees that you need. Many of you may either be looking for jobs or may be looking for individuals to fill positions. And TPE, or the Placement Exchange, is the largest career placement resource in student affairs for over the last 15 years. TPE is committed to helping employers and job seekers in our industry find each other and build our community one great job at a time. The methods and practices for job searching and hiring continue to evolve, and TPE is also working, as we've been hearing about, diligently to deliver the best in technology and innovation as well as accessibility, affordability, and dependability when it comes to recruiting and retaining talented professionals in student affairs. I know you've been hearing about it a lot today, but I'm going to plug it again. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:03]: To go to the placementexchange.org to find out more information. Another great opportunity for you to explore is a new partnership that is called the Program Review Collaborative. This was developed in collaboration with organizations such as the Association of Colleges and University Housing Officers International, the Association of College Unions International, NASPA, and the National Intramural Recreational Sports Association. The PRC is a new joint venture aimed at enriching departmental reviews through the guidance of seasoned experts. These associations bring together a wealth of knowledge, resources, and a unified commitment to advancing the work of campus of campus professionals and institutions alike. PRC reviews focus on appraising the strengths and opportunities of a department with particular emphasis on staffing, administrative processes, programmatic offerings, student engagement mechanisms, and collaborative ventures within the broader campus community. Find out more at program reviewcollaborative.org. Finally, thank you to everyone who voted in the annual NASPA leadership elections, which closed on February 8th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:19]: We are thrilled to announce the following results with each position following the NASPA board of directors for the terms noted. The board chair elect is Michael Christakis, vice president for student affairs at the University of Albany, the region 2 director, Chaunte Hill, vice president for student life athletics and campus services at St. Joseph's University, region four east director, Juan Guardia, assistant vice president for student affairs and dean of students at the University of Cincinnati, and region 5 director, Carnell McDonald Black, vice president for student life at Reed College. Congratulations to all of these new leaders that are going to be leading NASPA into the future. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:40]: Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:27]: Chris, as always, you just do such a wonderful job with keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. Thank you for all you do with our NASPA World segment. Denasia, we've reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. Ready to start the clock? D'Najah Thomas [00:39:43]: I'm ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:44]: Alright. Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? D'Najah Thomas [00:39:49]: It would be Beyonce's I Been On. It's such a fierce song, and it reminds me to know that my track record is pretty good, and I don't need to be nervous about what I'm about to do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:00]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what would did you want to be when you grew up? D'Najah Thomas [00:40:04]: I wanted to be a bank teller because they always handed out lollipops when I went with my parents to the bank. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:10]: Number 3. Who's your most influential professional mentor? D'Najah Thomas [00:40:13]: My most influential professional mentor would be doctor Stephanie Carter Atkins. He is the embodiment of servant leadership, and she taught me extreme patience as a supervisor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:24]: Number 4. Your essential student affairs or career read. D'Najah Thomas [00:40:27]: Oh, my essential read would be Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. It leads me into some vulnerability that I had to really work through to offer to my staff, but was transformational. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:38]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. D'Najah Thomas [00:40:41]: During the pandemic, there wasn't a lot of TV because there was a kid in the house. But I would say that My Guilty Pleasure was The Real House 5 series. You could pick 1. They were always on A&E. So yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:53]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. D'Najah Thomas [00:40:57]: Harvard Business Review. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:58]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? D'Najah Thomas [00:41:03]: I would love to give a shout out to my partner who is also in higher ed and helps me find a way to navigate both of us reaching the goals that we have. I definitely wanna give a shout out to black women who are doing this work. They are my sisterhood. They are my network, and they are my support. And I am always here for empowering them. And then lastly, I have to give a shout out to my TPE planning committee, both current and past. TPE, when I say we, it's just me. And so without my planning committee, I would not be able to do what I get done. D'Najah Thomas [00:41:32]: They continue to be a dream team, and I love them dearly. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:35]: Denasia, it has been a pleasure to have you on SA Voices and get to know more about how TPE has been changing and evolving to meet the needs of the modern candidate and the modern employer as well. If folks would like to reach you or TPE, how can they find you? D'Najah Thomas [00:41:50]: Sure. If they would like to reach me or TPE, they can come to the TPE website. Again, it's www .theplacementexchange.org. You can click about us and get in touch with myself or our general email account. You can also follow TPE on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn. If you put in the placement exchange on all 3, we will pop up. There's no competitors. You'll definitely land at us, and I do my best to get back to people as quickly as I can. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:17]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice and the new story of TPE with us today. D'Najah Thomas [00:42:22]: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a wonderful conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:28]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA dot org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:09]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Embracing change and adaptability has been a focal point in the latest episode of 'Student Affairs Voices From the Field.' Host Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Dr. Denny Roberts, who has beautifully woven his international experiences into the fabric of student affairs. In this blog, I delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how Dr. Roberts' insights can inspire and guide student affairs professionals in their practice. Understanding Diversity Beyond Borders One compelling topic from the episode was the discussion around diversity in Qatar versus the U.S. Dr. Roberts and Dr. Creighton highlight that when working internationally, one must redefine what diversity, equity, and inclusion mean within the context of their environment. Dr. Roberts emphasizes the importance of cultural understanding in fostering engagement in highly diverse student populations. This urges professionals to prioritize intentional efforts and practice humility to make substantial connections across varied cultural landscapes. Fostering Multicultural Engagement The challenges that Dr. Roberts faced in Qatar's Education City showcase the complexity of creating universal student experiences without imposing one's cultural norms and expectations. He underscores the necessity of professional development and immersion to truly engage with the local culture. The emphasis is on the importance of educators obtaining a deep understanding of the cultures they serve, which is crucial in respecting the choices and experiences of international students. Transitions, Writing, and Contributions Dr. Roberts' journey through various career and geographic transitions sheds light on his decision to step into consultancy. This choice was driven by a desire to maintain personal freedom and a passion for writing—something he has continued with zeal post-retirement. His contributions in philosophy, history, leadership, and internationalization highlight the valuable interplay between practice experience and scholarly activity in student affairs. Multipotentiality and Identity An intriguing element of Dr. Roberts' narrative is the idea of being a 'multipotentialite.' He describes the traits—idea synthesis, rapid learning, and adaptability—which mirror his approach to student affairs and consultancy. This concept adds another dimension to understanding professional identities within the field and encourages embracing one's diverse skill set. Reverse Culture Shock and Moving Forward Dr. Roberts' return to America after living abroad opened a discussion on reverse culture shock. His advice for professionals seeking international experience is thoughtful and grounded in choosing deep, reflective opportunities over perfunctory resume enhancements. His message: be transformed by your experiences and seek an environment that respects and enhances your growth. Conclusion Dr. Denny Roberts' experiences and insights provide a compelling narrative for those in student affairs. They encourage educators to be adaptable, culturally sensitive, and intentional—a lesson in how one's experiences can shape not just personal growth, but also professional practice in diverse environments. Ultimately, his journey teaches us that transitions can be an avenue for development, inspiring new approaches to leadership and inclusion in the field of student affairs. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host.  Dennis C. Roberts is an independent consultant, speaker, and author. He last served as Assistant Vice President of Education for Qatar Foundation. During his seven years with QF he worked with Qatari and expatriate colleagues to create the student development and support services for its branch universities at Education City in Doha, Qatar. Prior to working abroad, he was Associate Vice President of Student Affairs at Miami University. He is past president of ACPA-College Student Educators international, and has been a member and presenter at the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the International Leadership Association throughout his career. He has authored 6 books and over 50 book chapters and other articles on student affairs, student learning, leadership, and internationalization. Denny, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:00:25]: Delighted to be with you today, Jill. This is awesome. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:27]: It is such a thrill to be able to speak to you in our theme of transitions this season. You have had quite a few career transitions, both in your identity as a professional, but also in your physical location. And in our preshow chat, I also got to know you and I share a lot of transitions in common, so I'm excited to dig into those. But I always like to get started with a question of how you got to your current seat, and your current seat is consultancy, which I know a lot of student affairs professionals kind of weave in and out of or move through after a VPSA position. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:01:01]: It is kind of an interesting transition because I had done Consulting before, you know, when I was full time employed and that kind of thing. And when I decided that it was time to return to the US from Being located in Qatar, I kinda struggled. Do I wanna continue to work full time and therefore take another job at the US or do I want to do something else? And a variety of circumstances, both personal and professional, caused me to think, you know, I really am kinda tired of going to the office every day and having somebody else tell me to do is. So I thought, maybe I can make this consulting thing work. And I also had just a gob of Ideas in my head. And I've written, you know, quite a bit during my career, but there was just this whole backlog of ideas That came to me from working abroad, and I thought, you know, if I'm tied to go to the office every day, I'm not gonna get these things Done. And what's really been fabulous is my writing has actually accelerated in retirement. I don't know if that will continue or not, but it's been terrific. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:02:04]: And I've had so much fun writing with younger colleagues who have fresh eyes, with international colleagues To have a totally different perspective. And the character of my writing has really, I think, Changed in this post kind of and I like to call it semi retirement because I can't give up. Right? So I really have not adopted an identity of being retired. I'm still very actively involved, so it was a real decision, personal and professional, that I just wanted more freedom. And fortunately enough, I was very blessed with having had a career that gave me enough economic needs to say that I didn't need that monthly salary. And that's a tough decision To make 2 in terms of how much is enough. Anybody that is facing the potential of retirement, you have to kind of gauge, like, what what's What's the lifestyle I wanna have? And I decided that what we had was very much something that would allow us stability, allow us time to do what we want. My wife was retired at that point already as well, and we decided to move to Chicago to be close to our grandkids. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:08]: So, that was all a part of the scenario about How I got to the, current semi retirement status that I'm in. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:16]: You've been quite a prolific author and student affairs is with over 60 journal articles and peer reviewed journals. I believe you've either edited or, coedited. Is it 6 books as well? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:27]: That's correct. Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:28]: So with all of that, how has your voice as an author evolved from your very first publication through when you kind of felt like you were churning a burden and now? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:37]: When I first Started writing, and I was extremely fortunate to have matured in 2 settings that were very, very influential for me. One was Colorado State University, and the other was University of Maryland. Both of them and I was a 1st generation college student, so I was kind of clueless about what the academic world really was all about But I had some really good coaches in the early days who urged me. They said, If you wanna be in student affairs, you need to also contribute Intellectually, you can't just be a practitioner. So I had role models at both institutions that urged me to start writing. And the early pieces that I did, I mean, one was I got involved in the whole issue about the age change for alcohol On college campuses, and so 18 to 21? Correct. Yeah. And I stood in opposition to that, Which was kind of an unusual position to take at the time. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:04:34]: And so that was kind of an opportunist publication, but not one that is deep in my heart. So After that, I started working more to just write about things that I really cared about, and that I felt like I had really learned something, And then I had something to offer, which is really very different than what a faculty member experiences. And even though I've Taught both at the graduate and undergraduate levels. I was never driven by tenure and promotion to write certain sorts of things That get into the literature in a specific sort of way. So I were really informed by my practice Experiences throughout my life. So, you know, if I was struggling with a particular issue at a certain time, then I tended to use writing as kind of almost my public Journal, this is what I'm thinking. And I don't know frankly, when you write, you never know who's gonna Be touched by an article that you write, and it's kind of a mystery to me in terms of who does read things that I write. But I Have had feedback from some of my articles or chapters that my narrative style speaking from personal experience, That reflection has been helpful for other people, and I think that is a different kind of writing than sometimes you would see in a typical kind of Tenure track publication driven, you know, kind of an environment. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:05:54]: So my publications for the early start was kinda just but then it became much more purposeful and more deeply reflective as I've gone on. And the areas I've published in that I'm most proud of are kind of student affairs, Philosophy and history, leadership, and then internationalization. Those are the 3 areas that I've most enjoyed, and I hope that the contribution I've made there has Made some difference to shed some light on those topics. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:20]: Am I hearing you as maybe an early adopter of autoethnography as a research style? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:25]: Probably. And I wasn't even aware That as a style. I had no idea that that's what I was doing, but yeah, that really is kind of where I'm coming from. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:33]: I think my qualitative professor might be mad that I just called it a would want me instead to call it a methodology. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:40]: Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:41]: Well, Denny, you also have had a prolific as a campus based professional and then transitioned off of a campus. So why don't we talk about that? You were at University of Miami. Is that Miami, Florida or Miami of Ohio? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:54]: No. It's Miami University of Ohio. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:56]: I apologize to the state of Ohio. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:58]: You have to flip The words there. So yeah. But Miami University in Ohio is where I was. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:02]: And you had, what I understand to be a fairly traditional rise in student affairs going from junior roles to mid roles and finally to that VPSA role. What was the state of the field when you determined it was time to go overseas? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:07:14]: Well, the idea of going overseas Cheese was really kind of planted through a previous experience at Miami, and the Miami, and you'll be very interested in this as a person interested To the study abroad, they have a bubble program in Difertaj, Luxembourg. And I heard about their invitation for visiting scholars, which were typically Play usually faculty that would do those roles. Well, I applied for it even though I was an administrator and I got it. And so I got to spend a semester in Luxembourg, and then during that time I taught and mentored students, and then I also wrote Actually, one of my books, which is deeper learning and leadership, which came out in 2007. So I worked very, very hard every week, And I had a Eurail pass, and so if I met my writing objectives, then on Friday morning, I hit Eurail. And I would go someplace. Well, guess how many writing deadlines I missed? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:10]: All of them? None of them. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:13]: 0. I missed none of them. So every weekend I went someplace you know so I'd go to paris I'd go to berlin I'd go to fiena I would We'd go all over Europe on my Eurail pass because it didn't cost me a thing. And every place I would go, I would land, and I'd find a cheap place to stay, and I would start walking the city. You know, that's what I would do every weekend. And so that just exploded my idea about what it's like To be in other cultures and to learn from other places and to be respectful and attentive to the differences from myself as an American versus all the other worlds. And that happened in 2005. And then I just kind of ruminated for a while about, well, what was that all about? And Finished the book, got it published, all that kind of thing. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:59]: And then Qatar came to me just out of the blue, and I had not applied, but they came to me and invited me to apply For what was a newly created possession, which was the role was to coordinate student services and development activities across the 8 branch Universities that they had then attracted to, the Education City campus in Doha, Qatar. And simultaneous to this, which is just A very, very strange, fortuitous sort of thing is that my daughter, Darby, was graduating from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, And they invited her to go to their Carnegie Mellon branch program in Qatar. So Darby accepted the position first. They came to me subsequently. My immediate reaction when I was invited was I asked Darby. I said, Darby, this is crazy. I mean, your father's gonna follow you halfway around the world in your 1st job. I mean, Can you deal with this? Would this be okay? And she said, oh, of course, dad. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:10:00]: No problem at all. So I applied and they hired me and then I went over and that was in the fall of two And I went over for what was supposed to have been a 3 year contract, which was then successively extended to 6, And then extended to 7. And then finally, after 7th year, I said, I really need to go back, and I need to be with my family. Unfortunately, my My wife was not able to go over and live with me over there even though she came over on a quarterly basis, and we talked every day. But that's one of the challenges of expat work Yes. That always get to take your family with you, and that's not always convenient. And so you have to kinda figure out how that's gonna work. So that was a huge transition Culturally, professionally, personally, I mean that was the real kind of just crazy paradigm change for me when I went to Qatar. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:52]: So I grew up in the Middle East a little bit. I had my earliest years in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and it's a very different cultural space. I also have spent some time in the UAE and then have good colleagues in the Levant region, as well as, you know, just kind of all around the GCC or the Gulf Coast region. On the show last season, we had a good colleague from Kuwait and then also in the season prior, colleagues from Qatar as well and from Kuwait. And we hear that the the needs of students are just extremely different. For those who are not familiar with Education City. As Denny mentioned, there are more than 8 now branch campuses in Education City in Qatar. I believe it's more than 8 now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:32]: And they have attracted or kind of what I would call joint venture opportunities, really, where students from the local region are coming in earning degrees with university names that a US audience are probably a little more familiar with. But it's not as if you can just transplant all of these Americanized ideals into this environment where the value system is extremely different. So how did you adapt what you knew and what you had been practicing and researching to this environment that you didn't know at all. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:02]: The Qatar Education City campus, it does have just 8 universities. And, well, 6 are American universities, one is European, And then there's their homegrown graduate school, which is called Hamid bin Khalifa University. So it's the 8 institutions and they They are not joint degrees. They are in the local environment. What's fascinating about what they've been able to do in Qatar is that the degree requirements Are exactly the same as the home campus. So if you get a degree from Carnegie Mellon in computer science, The curriculum is identical. And if it's Texas A&M engineering curriculum, identical. So and actually, the degree is granted from the home Campus rather than it being there as a local in Qatar, you know, kind of a degree. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:47]: So it looks exactly the same when you're done. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:50]: Exactly. And so, You know, part of what the goal was was to replicate the student learning experience between the US Or European, and then the Qatar example. What's interesting about that is that student affairs is very much a part of Most institutional cultures in the US. And for the most part, the colleagues that I worked with in Qatar, particularly those that were Country or were GCC Air World colleagues, they had no idea of what student affairs was about. Even for those that studied in the US, there's a tendency, at least among the colleagues with whom I interacted, there's a tendency for them to Not engage in the same sorts of ways when they're in the US. So I had lots of colleagues that went to US institutions That didn't even know there was such a thing as a student affairs division, and what value did that bring, and that kind of thing. So a major major part of what I Did there was to raise awareness of what student affairs was as a historical and philosophical and research based Commitment. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:13:56]: And that I have to say, worked in some examples, and I'm thrilled that it stuck. In other examples, that never really did take, and I think that that's really something that international student affairs educators have to face. Some of it's gonna stick, Some of it isn't, and some of that is because of the differences in culture. And I'm sure you know from your Riyadh experience and UAE experience, I mean, the background that a student brings to the learning environment very clearly impacts the way that they're going to engage, and that relates to Everything from deference to authority, to gender roles, to freedom of thought and expression. I mean, there's just all sorts of things. And what's really interesting is to try to contextualize the values that student affairs can bring to another culture, But not do it in a way that judges other people's way of being. I learned so much from some of the students, for instance, that came from Pakistan, or from India, or from North African countries, where the environment of their expressing their views And actively engaging would have been politically dangerous. And as educators, even though I value democratic Education and full engagement, I had to understand that I was potentially educating a student with a tool that could be dangerous for them In terms of personal or professional welfare. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:15:30]: It's a really interesting tension, and that doesn't mean abandon the values and the purpose that we have as student affairs educators, but it does mean you need to understand the cultural differences, and you need to respect the choices that students have to make that might be different than what you would find in a US kind of a setting. Did you find that in your in your work in the UAE and Saudi Arabia? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:55]: Well, I was only in the UAE for a hot second, and, it was really as a visitor when I was working for NYU in the past. But I think my most relatable experiences as a CSAO in in China for a couple of years, and that institution had students from 70 countries. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:11]: Yeah. Well, we had a 100 in in In Qatar. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:14]: So when you have that level of diversity, it's just very different than what diversity is conceptualized as in the United States. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:22]: Correct. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:22]: And then even in my mind, what what the priorities are and diversification are different. And the way that we talk about inclusion and access in the US is actually quite ethnocentric to the US, and I don't think that we acknowledge that all the time. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:36]: Amen. Amen. I mean, no, I mean, that's a really distinction, and I think that the focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion is very important to in the US, and translating that in an international All setting is very appropriate. However, the way that you define it and what you understand to be diversity needs To be conceptualized in a different sort of way. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:58]: Well, absolutely. And the campus I was on had about 60% students from China mainland and then 40% students from the rest of the world. And and so when we look at that, it was also all of a sudden your majority identity is not students who come from privileged backgrounds from a majority ethnic white background. It's Han Chinese all of a sudden, and so then the world shifts in terms of what you understand. And so that was just quite a part quite an interesting part of my experience and a huge transition for me in the way I conceptualize things. I'm wondering for you then, Denny, if You could talk about what's the number one thing you found in terms of a universal experience amongst students in a setting that diverse. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:17:39]: Well, Certainly, their interaction with each other was very, very powerful, and this was actually one of the things that I advocated Very, very strongly. Some of the branch programs tended to want to kinda develop their own identity of their own students kinda within the bubble. So The Northwestern students would hang together. The Georgetown students would hang together, etcetera. And that kinda happened naturally because each of them had a separate building. But while I was there, We built a student center that was a shared space, and so the shared space was supposed to bring everybody together and It was just overwhelming. Students just loved it. You know, we had the bowling alley and the sports complex, and we had the Convenience shopping, and we had meeting rooms, we had a theater, we had an art gallery. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:18:29]: I mean, we had all of that that then Brought people together. And we eventually built residence halls as well. And the residence halls again, you know, it was not clustered by your academic experience, but it was mixed up In terms of both your academic experience and your cultural experience. So it was very very clear that our Students there and you would hear different languages, different styles of dress, all of that all the time. And I assume that you've observed the same sort of thing. So diversity of thought and culture and background is ubiquitous. That is the experience. And what's interesting about it Is though and we actually conducted the national survey of student engagement of the students over there to see what the real impact Was and while the opportunity for exposure across culture was clearly there as a Ubiquitous experience, engaging in it was a different matter. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:19:25]: And if you look at US experience too, just that diversity is on the Campus doesn't guarantee that there is multicultural engagement. There has to be intentional effort to make it happen. There has to be willingness. There has to be respect and humility. You have to have all of those things, and that was a startling realization In terms of just because you have students from a 100 countries doesn't mean that you're going to have a multicultural experience. You have to work at it. And this is something that student affairs really is so strong in in comparison to other academic areas and so forth. But again, as we're saying, It can't be replicated right straight from the US. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:05]: The principles of it, the philosophy of it, I think can be transferred, but how you do it has to be different. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:11]: One other thing that I always try to conceptualize is how do I help lead a team to create a universal student experience without kind of engaging in colonialism is the best way I can put it. And that's so tough. Right? Because my training, my education, and my experiences are primarily US based. And so as we look at you know, we are privileged people to be able to live and work in another country. We are also being asked to be there because of the knowledge base that we bring and also trying to figure out how to do that in culturally appreciative ways of the environment that we're in. So can you talk about maybe a practice or some sort of departmental shift that you had to make to really engage the cultural elements of where you were compared to what you knew. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:56]: I used some of the tools that I had used previously in my career. So particularly because There was really not a base of understanding student affairs from a research and theory and publication point of view. We did a lot of professional development efforts, And we did that actually in concert with some US institutions. We established something that we called the Qatar Foundation, YPI, Young Professionals Institute. And so we hosted institutions like Colorado State, Maryland, San Diego, who would bring their students over, and we would have these 2 week Experiences that were intensive cultural immersion, and then working in teams to bring ideas about Student affairs practice, but then to to recreate it as a cultural context. So we would have half US graduate and young professionals, and half Qatar based or Arab world based people that were interested in the field or employed in the field, and would they would work in teams together on certain kinds of topics. So for instance, one of the topics that was just wonderful to explore was the influence of family. And of course, US students are all talking about, oh, it's Important for you to be independent and autonomous from your families and so forth. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:05]: And our local Arab world colleagues and Asian colleagues were saying, no. Not so much. Not so much. And so literally, the US students relearned in very powerful ways. But on the other hand, Our Arab world colleagues, our Asian colleagues also learned the merits of fostering independence and autonomy while doing it in a respectful sort of way of Environments that are very, very family oriented. One of the things that I also did personally was I practiced Very deep humility on a regular basis, humility and curiosity. And I had several cultural informants, who were colleagues who were willing to give me the the straight scoop about how I was coming across. Oh, that's Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:49]: so important. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:51]: Oh my gosh. It was incredible. I would not have survived without them. No way. And so I would regularly meet with them and ask them what was Going well. What was not going so well? And they would tell me. And that was difficult at first because not only am I a Privileged white American. I'm also old. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:09]: I have white hair. And so in the cultural context, the reverence For somebody of my makeup was very significant and I really had to build trust so that people would tell me the truth. Because when you're in that kind of a position as a privileged white American or really kind of like as any kind of an American or European, you have to understand your Privilege. And if you don't understand your privilege, you're likely to do exactly what you suggested, which you will become a neocolonialist. You will impose your idea on other people whether it fits or not. And man, I just I learned so much from that. And I learned a term recently Lee, that I I think is kind of a really fun term. Have you ever heard of the term multi potentialite? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:52]: No. That's new for me. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:53]: It's actually TED Talks by Emily Wapnick. And when I listened to it, I kind of went like bingo. And all my career life, I've had wonderful jobs, and I've had a lot of fun, and I've had some Pushback in terms of I sometimes kind of have a different way of seeing things. Well, this multipotentialite thing has a lot to do with it. And the 3 characteristics that she identified are that they tend to be, very good at idea synthesis. They secondly are rapid learners, so they catch on quickly, and they they go for it while sometimes other people are kind of dragging their feet. And then thirdly, they're very adapt Across environments. And those things, I think, really, really helped me in the Qatar example. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:24:34]: And I think it also relates to just My identity as an artist because, you know, I have an undergraduate degree in music, and musicians are always looking for relationships, and harmony, and sequence, And patterns, that's who musicians or artists are. And I think I actually express that in my work in Some pretty interesting ways. And I'm saying this because I think some of us that may look a little different or think a little bit differently than colleagues around us sometimes End up feeling as if that were not appreciated or were not affirmed. And I think it's really important to kinda look at your own gifts and try to figure out how that they fit With any particular work environment or any particular calling that you may want to consider. And that has a whole lot to do with this whole transitions theme of Knowing yourself well enough to know your strengths and weaknesses, and then identifying opportunities where your best gifts are gonna meet the The needs of a particular environment, and you're gonna be able to be effective in that other setting. And for the most part, I've been lucky. I had a lot of good lands, Couple, that's so good, but that's kinda the luck of the draw with some of that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:43]: Let's talk about the transition of reverse culture shock. That's a rough one, and reverse culture shock, meaning you decided to return to the US to settle into semi retirement. You've been living in a different cultural context for 7 years at that point, but coming back to a context that you're supposed to know and understand well, but maybe may not make as much sense to you in some ways anymore or may make more sense to you in some ways. So what was that experience like? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:09]: Yeah. Well, the first thing that I noticed was that People didn't really care. And that was frustrating because I learned so much from the work abroad experience I wanted to share. And so on numerous opportunities, I waxed eloquently about my work abroad experience, and eventually, I started noticing the glazed eyes And the fact that people just weren't interested. And that was disappointing to me as a reverse culture shock issue. I thought That my American colleagues around here would welcome that more. So I became more selective in terms of how I offered my point of view. And lots of people that I interact Now I have no clue that I've worked abroad and what my experience has been, and that's totally okay. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:53]: But I I had an urgency of wanting to share it. I think probably came from just Self processing. So it was self processing publicly by talking to other people about it. So that definitely was something. Our choice of coming back To a setting that was more inclusive and had more diversity in, and it was also very purposeful. I was still working in Qatar in 2012 when we actually purchased our home and my wife moved to Chicago. And we moved from Oxford, Ohio. And, Oxford, Ohio is a Small town, kind of a bubble kind of setting in itself, not a lot of diversity. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:27:27]: I knew full well there was no way that after working abroad, working with diverse colleagues, Working with diverse students, then I would be able to come back and and really enjoy a setting that was more homogeneous. So Chicago worked really well for us. We live in a very diverse neighborhood. Lots of internationals or expatriated people live in our neighborhood. Lots of cultural Diversity, socioeconomic diversity. I mean, I live in Wilmette, Illinois, and for those who have stereotypes about Wilmette, park them someplace Because, yes, there is the the North Shore Sheridan Road version of Wilmette, and then there's the version that I live in. And the version I live in is actually very diverse and very, very interesting. So the choice of where to come back as an expatriate, I think, is very important. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:12]: And that both relates To if you come back to work someplace, as well as to come back to live someplace. I think you don't just come back and replug in to the old way of being Because the old way of being is gone. It just doesn't exist, and you're not comfortable there anymore. So I was transformed by my experience and very much sought Diverse experience, diverse exposure, and then dialing it down in terms of sharing my international wisdom. I share that in my writing. I don't share it in my personal interaction with people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:45]: Yes. And now you're sharing it on our show, which we're very grateful for. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:48]: So, I mean, that was so powerful. It was, really wonderful. And for people that might want to consider international experience, it is a transition out and then back. And you can look at Transition experiences that you've had in other work or personal circumstances to look at the kind of strengths and challenges that you faced, And then figure out how to navigate in ways that that do not violate your values. And that's a really important part of this too is understanding your values well enough to know where Where do you have some flexibility versus where can you adapt and do it in ways that are gonna be both to your benefit and the benefit of others? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:25]: What advice do you have for US based student affairs pros who might be looking for jobs in Education City or really anywhere outside of the US? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:29:34]: They're kind of idiosyncratic in terms of the selection processes are not as transparent as they are in most US settings. And so at least in my experience, I don't know how this compares with yours, but it's not unusual at all for Referrals to be made on a personal basis rather than for there to be a an application process that you throw your vita or resume into the pile and it gets sorted out. So taking on experiences that allow you to tiptoe into it helps. I mean, my Luxembourg experience clearly Was tiptoeing into international work, so it was a temporary period. It was like a, you know, faculty study abroad program is basically what it was, and I think one of the things that I worry about a little bit is that sometimes I think people think that excuse me for being negative about this, But I've seen some study tours quote that are more what I would call ecotourism. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:29]: Academic tourism. Don't even get me started. It's a whole thing. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:30:32]: Okay. Well, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And that's not enough. If you're gonna choose an experience to Travel abroad, and you want to do it in a professional developing sort of way, then choose something that is a deep dive in terms of culture, requires lots of preparation in advance, requires lots of reflection during and after the process. Don't just go there to be able to notch it on your resume, travel to x number of countries. That just doesn't work, at least for me. And I I don't mean to be critical because I know all of these are steps toward being more internationally aware. But if you're in a student affairs position, you Kinda wanna consider this internationalization thing, then do it deeply. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:31:14]: You know, find a program that really is gonna give you a deep dive and really engage you in ways that helps you to teach Humility and curiosity. So that would be my advice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:29]: Thanks, Jill. So great to be back in the NASPA world. Really excited to be able to talk to you about the amazing things that are happening within our association. The 2024 NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is coming up July 29th to July 31st in Louisville, Kentucky. The purpose of the NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is to share and exchange strategies, ideas, and resources, And to discuss issues related to student affairs fundraising and external relations. The conference promotes an exchange of best practices, And it is designed for professionals who currently have development responsibilities specifically in student affairs And for professionals with backgrounds and experience in either student affairs or development. The call for programs for this conference is Currently open until February 26, 2024. And if you have an interest in presenting at the conference, I encourage you to submit before the deadline To be able to be considered to share with amazing professionals that are all there interested in the same thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:38]: At the same time, we are also looking for reviewers for sessions that are submitted, and reviewer applications are also due by February 26th. Information on both of these opportunities can be found on the NASPA website. If you go to the event itself and click on it, You'll find out more information. Help ensure that eligible students are registered, educated about elections, and turn out to exercise their right to vote by considering to engage with the voter friendly campus program. This is a free initiative that's been growing since its inception in 2016 in partnership with the Campus Vote Project. You can find out more at campus vote Project .org. I know in the past I've talked about the Leadership Exchange as a great piece of professional development. This is a magazine that's sent out by NASPA every quarter to be able to allow for our vice presidents for student affairs to think about Topics that are pertinent to the day to day activities that they are dealing with, but that doesn't mean that if you're not a vice president for student affairs that you will not learn so much by reading the articles that are submitted. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:47]: One such article that I would highly recommend is called budget reduction 101, And it was written by incoming chair of the NASPA board, Anna Gonzalez and Christine Livingston. The great thing about this is that it is giving frontline perspectives on making effective cost cutting decisions and really gets into the mind of the chief student affairs officers on things that they can do to be able to cut costs and to manage Their divisions in an effective way. As I said, you don't have to be a vice president for student affairs to better understand this topic, but you will learn so much From reading this and getting into the mind of vice presidents within our association. If you have an interest in learning more about budget reduction or other topics, I encourage you to go to the NASPA website under publications and go to leadership exchange, and you'll be able to access the winter 2024 issue that does have This specific article in it or many of the other issues that have come in the past that I think that you will find to be Very eye opening. I know I've mentioned this before, but there are some amazing keynote speakers that are going to be at the 2024 NASPA virtual conference That is available April 2nd through 5th, and it's something that you and colleagues on your own campuses can definitely take advantage of Whether you're going to the national conference or not. A few of the keynote speakers that are going to be highlighted That are going to be speaking at the conference itself includes Josie Elquist, who's a higher education digital educator leader and author, Shawna Patterson Stevens. Doctor Shawna Patterson Stevens, vice president for inclusive excellence and belonging At at Central Michigan University and also doctor Kevin Kruger, president of NASPA will be speaking at the virtual conference. This among many great concurrent sessions that are available are going to allow for you and your colleagues to leave the days with So much great professional development and opportunities to be able to learn right from home or right from campus. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:57]: If you wanna find out more about the virtual conference, go to learning .naspa.org Forward slash v c dash sessions. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways Because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might Encourage you might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways That allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, Your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:22]: Because through doing that, All of us are stronger, and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:34]: Thank you, Chris, for giving us the latest scoop on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Denny, we have reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready to go? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:46]: I sure am. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:47]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:52]: Well, I'm a classical musician trained person. It would be, The last movement of Mahler's 8th symphony. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:02]: That'll be a very dramatic entrance. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:03]: Very dramatic. Very dramatic. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:05]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:09]: Oh, I wanted to be a concert pianist. That was my whole vision of myself as a Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:13]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:17]: Wow. This one is tough. I kinda thought about this a little bit this morning because I've had some great Mentors, I have to admit most of them have been women, and one person who is a colleague and mentor is Susan Komovaz. She's a delightful human being, and we Change a lot. Barbara Kellerman in the leadership studies world is somebody that I really respect. Esther Lloyd Jones, I had a chance to know her, and She taught me a lots of things about student affairs and what we're here for, and so I broke the rule. I gave you 3, so that's enough. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:45]: Number 4, your Essential Student Affairs Read. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:48]: Essential Student Affairs Read? Actually, Esther Lloyd Jones, deeper learning and leadership 1954. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:53]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:58]: Oh, wow. Do I have to admit it? Succession. I'm sorry. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:06]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:10]: I actually listen to I do listen to this one, and I Really, really enjoyed this this podcast, but I watch, the International Leadership Association podcast, and there are actually a couple of them that I watch, regularly to get the wisdom from those. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:25]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:29]: I thank Chris For introducing me to this opportunity, I think I'm kinda known in the in the professional world as more of an ACPA kind of person. So I don't show up in the NASPA space as As often as I might, even though I've been an ASPA member most of my career. Kevin Kruger was he had his 1st job with me. Yeah. And lots and lots of colleagues that are very active in NASPA, but I have maintained more in the the, ACPA area. And, you know, for me, these professional associations are so important in terms of giving us a colleague network, a way to push our understanding to Standing to learn from each other and that kind of thing. And so I I would give a a shout out to folks like you that are trying to get people's voices out there and get exchanged And professional organizations that allow us to relate to one another and discover how to do our best work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:21]: Thank you so much, Denny. It's been an incredible opportunity to get know you today and your story. If anyone would like to reach you after the show airs, how can they find you? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:40:30]: My professional email is dc roberts48@gmail.com. And in Wilmette, Illinois, I have a LinkedIn profile. I have 2 blogs That I maintain one is called Pursuing Leadership by Denny, and that one's mostly about it has a lot in travel because I started in 2005 when I went to Luxembourg, but it's all by reading that I do on a regular basis. And then the other one's called Global Student Affairs. And that's more about international implications For people that are in student affairs work. So those would be the best ways to get in touch with me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:05]: I'm looking forward to checking out that second one in particular. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:07]: Jill, it's been great. Yeah. We have so many nice connections, and I feel like we're possibly birthed from the same parents. I don't know. But Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:16]: I appreciate the deep connections on so many levels, whether it be music or international higher education or student affairs journey or even where we've been in the US. So, Denny, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:29]: Great. Alright. I look forward to seeing you again. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:34]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at s a voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Ginz. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:08]: It really does help other student fairs professionals find the show, and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your or as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Adapting to Students' Needs Across Institutional Types The recent episode of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast featuring Hing Potter dove deep into student affairs and the unique intricacies of working at different types of educational institutions. Potter's transition to the assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco brought to light his advocacy for student development through inclusion and empowerment, which is a hallmark of his 11-year career. Changes in Professional Focus One remarkable aspect Potter shared was how his professional focus needed to shift as he navigated the diverse environments of 4-year public, 4-year private, and 2-year public institutions. This included adjusting plans and thought processes according to the timeframe of students' academic careers, thereby reinforcing the importance of adaptability in student affairs. Ensuring Continuity and Leadership Another challenge Dr. Jill Creighton discussed with Potter is how to guarantee continuity and develop student leadership within the limited timespan specific to 2-year colleges. Potter emphasized the need for transparency in passing on institutional knowledge, ensuring that successive student councils can uphold and continue advocating for student experiences. Salary Negotiation and Personal Advocacy The episode also highlighted Hing Potter's recent negotiation for a higher salary at City College, a testament to recognizing and advocating for one's value in the workplace. Dr. Jill Creighton's insights into the importance of comparing qualifications with job descriptions, depersonalizing negotiations, and communicating in writing provided listeners with valuable tips for their own career advancements. Upcoming NASPA Events Additionally, the episode provided updates on upcoming NASPA events, such as the 2024 Leadership Educators Institute and the 2024 national conference. These gatherings represent the changing and elevating landscape of student affairs as professionals continue their journey. Hing Potter's story is not just about the transitions within the professional sphere but also about personal growth and advocacy. It teaches us the profound impact of understanding institutional types, the art of negotiation, and the continuous pursuit of fostering student success.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA Voices, we are pleased to welcome Heng Potter. Going into 11 years in student affairs, Heng Potter, he, him, main drive has been to support student development by creating space and opportunity through inclusion, empowerment, and self authorship. In his own state of transition this past fall, Hing became the new assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco where he advises the Associated Students, overseas student clubs and orgs, and is responsible for the student union. As a Khmer Transracial Transnational Adoptee or TRA and having previous life and work in Seattle, Boise, New York City, San Jose, and now San Francisco, Heng is no stranger to transformative life experience and transitions from one place to the next. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:08]: In the community. Heng serves on the leadership team of the San Francisco chapter of Project by Project, a national nonprofit focused on amplifying Asian American issues, and he also serves on the leadership team of the NASPA Asian Pacific Islander Knowledge Community or APIKC. In his own time, Hing enjoys travel, photography, and spending time with a 17 year old dachshund, Buster, and his partner, Jasmine. Ping, welcome to SA Voices. Hing Potter [00:01:33]: Hi. Thanks for having me here today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]: We're very glad to feature you today about your transition that is fairly fresh. By the time this episode airs, you'll have been in your new position for about 3 or for months. But right now, we're sitting at about the 60 day mark. And right now, before we get into all of the details of your transition, I'd love guests to start with how you got to your current seat. Hing Potter [00:01:55]: Yeah. Thank you so much again. Let's see. I came To City College of San Francisco because in my previous role, I felt like I had just outgrown myself. There wasn't much room for need to expand my professional skills or abilities. And I really just wanted to find a new challenge, a new way for me to interact with students, And I think it was just time for me to move on. So, you know, I did the whole thing where I put myself out there as best possible in different Formats apply to different colleges and universities, and City College of San Francisco is one of them, back in, I think, April time. And then I had a Couple interviews, 1 in the end of April and then 1 in the middle of May. Hing Potter [00:02:35]: That interview was all the way when I was vacationing in Spain, unforced I was actually on my way to my cousin's Wedding rehearsal dinner a hour before that. And I had, like, my laptop and everything on top of, like, this ironing board to give it elevation and stuff, And I met with the dean and the vice chancellor at that time. And then, over the summer, I eventually heard back by August. And 2 months later, I'm here. So that's, in a nutshell, what happened. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:02]: And you physically moved as well. Yes? Moved cities? Hing Potter [00:03:05]: Kind of. Actually, if we wanna expand this whole transition period, when the pandemic hit in early 2020, that's when I had actually moved from New York City to San Jose, California, so South Bay Area. And that was when I also moved into that new position at my previous role. And then that was an experience in itself because I felt like maybe I was, like, one of the first people to actually move geographical locations in the early onset of Pandemic, and I had left pretty much all of my stuff in New York. I brought a suitcase with me of just clothes, and then I had to ask a friend back in New York to Muster up the courage and go to my apartment and, like, pack all my stuff and wear a face mask and tell her to, like, please take care of yourself. If you don't feel comfortable, Please don't do this. But if it you are able to, I would, like, be more than happy to, like, compensate you in some way, shape, or form. I'll even pay for the shipping, of course. Hing Potter [00:03:57]: And so she was actually very, very, very helpful, and I'm so much gratitude for her for shipping all my stuff out to me from New York to the Bay Area. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: That's a great friend. Hing Potter [00:04:06]: Yeah. Somebody who really went above and beyond the call of duty. And then fast forward a couple years Now from San Jose, I now live in kinda close by Stanford University in between Palo Alto, Menlo Park area. And I'm here with my partner and our little tiny 16 year old, dachshund. So his name is bust. Oh, senior doggy. Yes. He's a pandemic puppy. Hing Potter [00:04:30]: A couple years ago, my partner really, really, really, really wanted a dog, so We finally caved. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:36]: So thinking about all of the transitions that you've gone through, and it's really not just this immediate transition, but Lots of transitions starting about 3, 4 years ago at this point. How did you prepare yourself mentally to throw yourself into new environments and new spaces and new collegial relationships when the world was kind of in upheaval. Hing Potter [00:04:57]: I think for me, coming from New York to the Bay Area, That was definitely a challenge because, you know, initially, I had asked if I could go from New York to my parents in Seattle. And they actually told me no, not because they don't love me, but because at that time, everybody's very nervous about the Pandemic, and my parents are 60 and over. And at that time, you know, elderly people wanna be cautious. And that also New York was One of the early epicenters of the pandemic. And so they actually told me no. I was devastated inside, and I didn't know exactly how I was gonna get out of New York. I didn't know how I was gonna to this new job that I had lined up for myself. I didn't know if it would be safe to fly. Hing Potter [00:05:40]: A lot of things were up in the air. So I must've got my own courage. I bought a ticket actually from New York to Idaho because I went to undergrad in Idaho, and I made a lot of good friends out there. And Idaho hadn't really been hit yet, So I called up my friends there and say, hey. I need a crash over there. Can I hang out with you for a little bit? They're like, yeah. Yeah. No problem. Hing Potter [00:06:00]: Stay as long as you need. Get yourself out of New York. Do what you need to do. So I went to Idaho, actually, and I was there for a whole month, April that year. And then my job was supposed to start in June, and so I needed to somehow then get from Idaho to the Bay Area. So then I ended up buying a car because I realized at that time the pandemic was just getting worse, and flying just wasn't an option anymore for me, Personally, I just didn't feel comfortable. And so I bought a car, and then I drove all the way from Idaho to the Bay Area. It's about maybe 10 hours or so Driving, and I got here. Hing Potter [00:06:38]: And in the whole mist of, like, trying to get from Idaho to the Bay Area, I found this guy on Craigslist who had a extra room in a bungalow house for pretty cheap. And I was like, hey. It's something he told me he that he keeps his place clean and sanitary, and then he takes all the COVID precautions at that time, and I had to trust him and just go with it. So I did that. And then I got there in May, had a couple weeks to just Chill and not do anything, like, literally not do anything because everybody's on shutdown, and I'm just twiddling my thumbs in front of my face trying to stay active somehow. And then 2 weeks later, I start on June 1st at my previous role and went from there. It was a wild, maybe two and a half months or so In that transition. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:20]: So by comparison, your transition to your current position maybe seems a little more mild. Hing Potter [00:07:25]: It definitely. A little bit more mild, a little bit more easy to Navigate. I didn't necessarily have to, like, change states twice. I didn't have to figure out how to get from a to b buying a new car or anything. Or I have a car now. Thank goodness. And I can take public transportation, which is pretty nice. And City of College isn't that far from where I live now, where I as I used to work in San Jose, California. Hing Potter [00:07:47]: When you're now, I work in almost South San Francisco area, so not too much of a hassle there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:51]: Did you change functional areas? Hing Potter [00:07:53]: You could say that. Yes. So in my previous role, I was in student services, which is more comprehensive. It supported students, particularly graduate students, trying to help them with navigating everything From student involvement to student resources to crisis management, title 9 advocacy, and Overall student services operations, so making sure everything from new student orientation in their own transition into the university, All the way to commencement so they're transitioned out of the university. And here in my new role, I strictly just advise the associate student Councils. I support student clubs and organizations, and I'm responsible for the student union building. So a lot more, you know, defined role for me, a lot more Concentrated, which I appreciate, and a big pay bump for me. So I'm I'm happy about where I'm at right now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:43]: I believe you also shifted from private to 2 year public, which is, I think, a pretty big mentality shift in terms of how you approach the work every day. So tell us about that transition of environment. Hing Potter [00:08:56]: Oh my gosh. That is definitely something of a transition to experience. So I actually used to work in a public institution where I got to experience all that bureaucracy, barriers, and red tape, whatever you wanna call it. And then coming to My previous university as a private institution, you have a lot of leeway to kinda just do what you need to do. You have a lot more independent ability to make decisions and support your students in a more immediate manner. And I had my own university card, which was Super flexible in terms of, like, just making purchases and getting what we needed to have for our next event. You still set boundaries, of course, with their students So, like, hey. You gotta meet some timelines. Hing Potter [00:09:37]: I can't just go out tomorrow and get what you need for the next day, but it was a lot more flexible, I would say. And here coming back into the public sector, you definitely hit the wall really hard In terms of what is allowable in certain time frames and how you can get things done through different mechanisms. I also don't have a university or a college card anymore, so that's very interesting. And I actually had a a conversation with some students today. And Normally on Fridays, they get pizza for their meetings. And so this Friday, because it's their last meeting of the semester, they wanted to kinda have a little bit more of a Grandiose food invitation for people to come and join them. And they they honestly came up to me and said, hey, Heng. I know that this is really Awkward, but would you be willing to help us with, like, food and stuff? And I was like, well, what do you mean? Like, well, are you okay with putting this on your card, and we'll reimburse you? Like, Which is typical at this school. Hing Potter [00:10:38]: But in such a short period of time, I really had to just say, you know what? I can't do this. This is only a couple days notice, and you don't know if I have this money set aside personally for other things that I need to do. And I'm gonna be honest. Like, you guys need to prepare or plan ahead more in advance for something like this. You can't just make last minute adjustments. And the fact that you coming up to me saying, hey. Hey. This is really awkward, lets me know that you know you didn't plan well enough for quite a change in just 2 days. Hing Potter [00:11:07]: So There's that kind of mentality when it comes to how you get funds and resources or how you have to Plan ahead and think about what you wanna do. And at a private institution, you might be able to have a little bit more flexibility with last minute adjustments. But at a public institution, you kinda have to be committed. One of my previous roles when I was in New York at John Jay, all of our clubs had to Submit, for example, a whole year's worth, a calendar of events with budgets for each events, and that was due before classes started in the fall. And these were events all the way from September all the way to next May. And at at private school, you still have a year's worth of events planned out, but you don't have to Necessarily preallocate a whole bunch of stuff that far in advance. So a lot more flexibility in terms of, like, what you can and cannot do. So quickly learning that back here in the public sector on my own. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:00]: Flexibility, but also budgetary privilege. So I think depending on the nature of your private institution, the funds are just unrestricted in different ways where they might be more restricted at a public institution, but also the privilege of the size of the budget Or the different things that you're doing. And it always hurts my heart to hear that a lot of times that students or individual Professionals are funding the work of the university and having it reimbursed. I think that's a business practice that is really challenging because it makes a lot of assumptions, and it also puts the labor on the people that are earning the least. It's just it's a challenging dynamic. Hing Potter [00:12:37]: Me and my new dean, we we talked about how where do we draw the line when it comes to like this. And is this really our problem in terms of using our personal funds, or how much of this is a college problem? The fact that the college doesn't have the mechanisms in place is not my issue, and it's not my dean's issue. It's, you know, the college's issue that They can't have systems where it's more streamlined and it's more beneficial and it's more immediate For the student experience. So that really does impact how they go around doing things. And I don't want students to be spending most of their Time when they're in these leadership roles or in they're in these student clubs trying to navigate these systems. That's not what being involved uninvolved student is about. I want them to be able to just do what they need to do, and institutions in general need to figure out what that is that they can do to kind of, like, break down those Barriers. Unfortunately, it might not always be a college issue. Hing Potter [00:13:33]: It could be a district wide issue, or it could be a state issue. And in different institutions, It could come down to, you know, the registrars or the bursars or whoever's controlling the money for the institution. It could be a specific department issue and a range of things, but Students shouldn't have to be navigating those those types of waters in the 1st place, I don't think. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:53]: Other than the budgetary modeling and planning, what are the other differences that you're experiencing moving from private to public. Hing Potter [00:14:01]: Well, one of the things is that at my private institution that I was at, it was a 4 year institution. But I was working mostly with graduate students in tech. And now I'm working with community college students who Have a range of ages and a range of perspectives. And I was also formally more working mostly with international graduate Students. And now I'm working with mostly domestic US students. So that's kind of a shift in itself. Working with international students, you really had to Talk to them a lot more about culture and around how higher ed works in terms of different systems and processes to get their programming in place. Whereas at City College of San Francisco, the students are a little bit more intuitive about these processes because it's kind of built into the culture of, like, going to school and the stuff that my international students were doing, the graduate international students were Very more professional development focused, whereas the community college students, they're more about building culture. Hing Potter [00:15:02]: They're more about enriching this the campus experience. They're also doing a lot of they have this theme this year, informal theme of advocacy. So they're really trying to, like, source What are the issues on campus and how they're impacting students and what their role is in terms of advocating for a better experience when it comes to x, y, and z issues. So Whereas the international students, again, more professional development focused, not necessarily too concerned with the policies and issues that might that you might find at institution of of a 4 year institutions. Kinda some of those on the surface level differences for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:37]: I feel like a lot of Professionals spend most of their career in one type of institution, and you've done 4 year public, 4 year private, and now 2 year public. Kind of looking across all of those experiences. And to overgeneralize to a degree, what do you see as kind of the changes in Foci for you as a professional as you navigate these different types of institutions. Hing Potter [00:16:00]: I think, For me, the focus between we'll just generalize from a 4 year to a 2 year. The focus is at a 4 year institution, You have the ability to work with the students in a little bit more long term opportunity. You're working for example, when I was at John Jay, I'm working with these students who find themselves invested in in programming and involvement and leadership in a more long term plan. Whereas Here at City College, they wanna be done in 2 years. And so they wanna have action. They wanna have things get done a lot more quickly. But, again, kinda going back to the whole bureaucracy machine, how quickly that happens can be different. So it's like I was talking to a student actually the other day. Hing Potter [00:16:47]: We were talking about this whole three five seven plan. What do you wanna have normally happen in 3 years and 5 years and 7 years? And I had to work with the student to say, like, okay. Well, we're at a 2 year school. Instead of 357, what do you wanna have done maybe in, like, 2 semesters, in 3 semesters, and 4 semesters? Because by that time, now the question should be, what have you been able to do in terms of advocating for the student experience that you want? And when you walk away, What kind of legacy will you be proud to have left here at City College that you can say, I did that? Whereas at a 4 year institution, I'm I'm working with students. Not necessarily 357 again, but more of like, k. What do you wanna do in the 1st year, the 2nd year, 3rd year, and 4th year? So it's a little bit different planning, a little bit different, like, Thought process when I'm working with the students in that regard. How do Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]: you plan for continuity and student leadership in a model that's much shorter in time frame? Hing Potter [00:17:47]: Oh my goodness. It really does come down, I think, to working with the students on that transition between leadership. So, for example, really working with the council that I have right now and saying, how are we building your council institutional knowledge, And how are we working to make sure that that knowledge is passed on to the next council in a transparent and clear way? What are you doing right now to make sure that if so and so person who follows you in your footsteps, When they pick up the work that you're doing, they can easily see, oh, okay. I have to now do steps 3, 4, and 5 because the last person did Steps 1 and 2. So it really comes down to that clear transparency of what they're doing now, how they're doing it, and Putting it together for, clearly, for the next group. One of the things that we actually talked about coincidentally today is communication. Not just communication between each other today, but communication between a theoretical group that's gonna take over next year And then that group that's gonna take over in 2 years. City College is building its new student success center. Hing Potter [00:18:54]: And one of the big projects that this council wants to have is this social justice mural that will go in the student success center. The building is not gonna be done for another, maybe, two and a half years. So by then, we'll be 2, maybe 3 councils down the road. What does that continuity look like between today and the council that looks To be there in place when the student success center actually comes online. So these are questions that I'm asking of them to consider as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:21]: You've got this beautiful plan going forward, and we all know that with student leadership shifts, priorities change as well. How do you Think you're going to be navigating when the priorities of previous councils don't align with the future councils. Hing Potter [00:19:36]: I think the biggest thing when I'm working with students is really creating a mindset of student Advocacy, student experience, and this notion of student involvement that is meaningful And that is impactful. And so the focus of each council I think it's okay for it to change year over year if that's the case. But as long as it's still centered and rooted in enhancing the student experience or enhancing the Opportunities that students have to get involved and get engaged, grow their skill sets professionally and personally, then I think that's the core thing to to maintain. And that's something that I will always tell students regardless of how long I'm in this field. And that's something that I've always told students for the 10 years that I've been in this field is that priorities change, and that's totally fine. And my job isn't necessarily to tell students what their priorities should be. My job is to tell them, Hey. Your priorities are great. Hing Potter [00:20:36]: They make sense that they're sustainable. But as long as they're rooted in the ability for students to grow themselves. I think that's the most important factor there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]: Let's back up a little bit and talk about you as a human doing all of these transitions. So you've created what sounds like a really great game plan for yourself for the next couple of semesters in this new position. But what other factors did you need to be thinking about about entering a new role, especially knowing that the institutional type was going to be a new environment for you. Hing Potter [00:21:07]: Personally, for me, before I came to City College, One of the requirements for me was that I needed them to honor my 2 week vacation that I had that I just came back from a couple weeks ago when I went to Asia. And if they didn't do that, then that was gonna be a deal breaker. And so luckily for me, they said yes. Like, no worries. We'll make it work. We definitely wanna respect that. Another thing for me was just making sure that my own value was seen and met In terms of the abilities that I bring to the table, but also the lifestyle that I wanted to maintain or grow myself. So in terms of, like, a salary, I had to really learn how to advocate. Hing Potter [00:21:46]: This is my 1st time advocating for a salary that I wanted, a salary that I knew that I deserved. I think, City College, they they have this grade step program where I think it's, like, grades 1 through 12 or something. And they posted this position as grade 1, so they were gonna offer me grade 1. And me knowing what I know, how long I've been in the field, I knew that I was not at that value. So I also felt a little bit like, okay. Grade 1 is entry level. You know? I'm I'm justifying these reasons for why I'm not a grade one person. Grade one is entry level. Hing Potter [00:22:23]: I'm well beyond entry level. I have a better understanding of the student experience At multiple different types of institutions, coast to coast, I'm not grade one value. So I actually had to write this out in an email to them to the HR office. And I, you know, came to them with all these points. And the next day, they gave me a call, and I said, Hey. How's it going? And they said, well, we wanted to talk to you about your salary. And I was like, okay. Well, first, before you say anything, I'm sorry. Hing Potter [00:22:51]: But before you say anything, Did you get my email? Yes. We got your email. Okay. Great. And I wanted to ask that because it's super important that we start there because that is what's important to me. That is where I see my value. And what can you offer me based upon me being in student affairs for 10 years, me having all this different and the fact that you came to me asking me to come to City College. And so they actually bumped me up 3 or 4 grades more, which was An extra almost $20,000. Hing Potter [00:23:23]: So when they offered me that, I was like, okay. Now we're talking. Like, I can come to City College now. So it was a lot of anxiety. It was I was really nervous when I'm typing this email out to HR. My fingers were sweating, and I had never really been Taught or told how to write an email out like this or or anything? I mean, people tell you all the time, know your worth. Know what your value is. And I honestly think, you know, it is easier said than done to, like, give this advice to people. Hing Potter [00:23:52]: But when the person who's receiving that advice takes it, Yes. You can receive it. But then when it comes time to execute it, it's a whole another story. Like, you now have to do something that you might not ever have done before. You might have to do something that another person that looks like me, a brown Asian person, might not have ever done before. And so I share this story now because I think it's super important that I have now lived this experience. I have written that email. I've Had that tough conversation with HR to say, this is a deal breaker. Hing Potter [00:24:23]: If you don't see my value, don't recognize me for what I bring to the table, then I don't know if I can come to City College. Luckily enough for me, they saw that and were able to give me what I wanted. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:33]: And I think that's great advice. And, also, it sounds like you were willing to walk away if that was necessary. Hing Potter [00:24:39]: I'll be completely honest. I wasn't necessarily happy at my previous role because, as I said, there was no growth you did for me there. I wasn't doing the creative work that I love doing anymore there because I just didn't have the opportunities to to banned. But if City College didn't see my worth or my value, I sadly was going to stay at my previous role and suck it up because It just wasn't something that I really wanted to fight for, to go to battle for. I was making the self conscious decision that Even though I wasn't growing, I still loved the students. And I don't think anybody I'm not saying to do what I do or Think about what I think about, but it's a really sad situation, I think, when people are put into those situations. And having to decide whether you You wanna stay at a place where you have no growth, but you love the students or having to potentially go somewhere else where they might see your value, but you don't know what you're getting yourself into. So it's it's a tricky field to navigate. Hing Potter [00:25:41]: And regardless of who you are, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. It just happened to turn out in my favor for me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:47]: We haven't talked a ton about salary negotiation on the show, and I think you've offered some really important tips. Let me repackage them just really concisely for folks who are trying to negotiate for themselves and have never done it before. Step 1 is to compare your resume and your experiences with the job description and really note where you meet and where you exceed those minimum qualifications and those preferred qualifications because that's gonna be your starting point for arguing for more money. It's not really an argument, a negotiation. And I think step 2 is, Ping said it really well, you need to be working with HR, not necessarily the hiring manager, depending on who's making the offer, and it is typically coming from the HR perspective. Sometimes you're gonna run up against a budgetary limitation where there's only so much budgeted for the position and there's not flexibility, and that's something you need to be prepared to here. And sometimes you're going to be in a position like Hain was where your experiences are clearly articulated in a way that the budgetary Alignment wasn't there from the starting spot and you can get there together to an ending spot. But I think another important thing is to depersonalize it a little bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]: So instead of saying, can you offer x? Perhaps can x institution offer this amount of money? And so you're asking what the institution can do, not what the person can do. And that can depersonalize it a little bit and make it really more about the business perspective about what's happening in your salary negotiation. The 3rd piece of advice that I heard from Hing is make sure you do it in writing at first. And then beyond that, you can have that negotiation conversation on the phone. But getting it out in writing also gives both parties a chance to really be reflective and think about things. And that way, it's also not a pressured environment for either party, and no one is kind of at liberty to respond in the moment. They can both go back and take some time. Did I miss any tips from you, Heng? Hing Potter [00:27:37]: No. That was very well, succinctly said for me. Appreciate it. The only other thing that I would Definitely recommend is that when you do go into a different institution and you start looking at how their salaries are structured is really becoming knowledgeable about their pay grade systems and how it works. The California Community College System is a beast, And I wouldn't know where to look because I don't know the system that well. But when I had started looking at the salary options and things like that, A really good friend of mine, doctor Dawn Li from San Jose State University, she had previous experience in the community college system and really gave me some good advice and helped me to navigate some of these intricacies when it comes to payroll structures and how to word things and how to really advocate for yourself. So I really wanna just give a shout out to her and give her all the things and and being able to support me. So having somebody, you know, with that experience in Whatever system you are looking potentially to go into, that's another plus on your half if you can get that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]: It's time to take a quick Break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]: Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there is So much going on as we continue to move into 2024. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is from December 9th through 11th in Philadelphia. Make sure to save that date because the Leadership Educators Institute or LEI provides a unique Opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses. LEI is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA, College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for leadership programs. Go to the NASBA website under events for more information. If you are planning to attend the 2024 national conference in Seattle, Washington from March 9th through 13th. There's a number of things that you need to know. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:42]: Make sure to check your email because you're getting dates sent to you on a regular basis. There are still opportunities to sign up the volunteer at NASPA 2024. So if you're interested in helping to make this year's conference amazing, make sure to sign up today to be able to Find some time to volunteer at as a part of this amazing conference. Volunteering is a fantastic way to support the conference, serve your colleagues, And make this year's event the best it can possibly be. As I said, an email has been sent out with a sign up that you can use to be able to find a time that works best for your schedule, and I encourage you to take advantage of that right away. Recently, Aku Oai, the placement exchange in NASPA released a joint statement with some exciting news about the placement exchange. They've developed a brand new brand identity, a new website, revamped resources, and enhanced Services. If you haven't checked it out yet, I encourage you to check out the newly redesigned website at www Dot the placement exchange, all one word, .org. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:51]: Though TPE is gonna look a little bit different and feel a little bit different, They are elevating their game to be able to do what they can to be able to assist all of us as professionals in our own professional journey. So check out the placement exchange today to find out more about what TPE can offer you in the journey that you're on. I also wanted to let you know about a Free event that is happening called well-being in higher education, raising literacy and advancing the conversation. Join over 20 higher education associations As they come together in dialogue around well-being. Now this buzzword is seemingly everywhere, But what does it really mean? Why does it matter? And how can we each contribute to this critical work? Well-being in higher education, raising literacy, and Dancing the Conversation is a free virtual event taking place February 26th through March 1st. The well-being in higher education event is One of the outcomes of the health and well-being in higher education, a commitment to student success, and will help Put the inter association well-being definition into practice. Registration details and a more detailed schedule of sessions is available on the NASPA website. So go to the NASPA website today to find out more about this amazing free professional development event. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:14]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So We are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because The association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that We will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will Provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, To offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:34]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:39]: Chris, thank you so much for another excellent NASPA world segment. We really appreciate you keeping us stated on what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Heng, we have reached the part of the show where we do our lightning round, and I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready? Hing Potter [00:33:55]: Let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:56]: Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music Hing Potter [00:34:03]: to be. Maybe, Get Low by, Lil Jon and the Yingying Twins. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew Hing Potter [00:34:10]: A pilot. An airline pilot, hands down. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:13]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Hing Potter [00:34:16]: I would say my housing director From when I was in ResLife as a resident assistant back in Seattle, Luke Botstein from Edmonds College. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:27]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Hing Potter [00:34:30]: At the moment, the NASPA conference 2024 website because I'm trying to stay up on today on that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:36]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Hing Potter [00:34:39]: I rewatched The West Wing, I think, for the 6th or 7th time, and then I'm also a Trekkie, so I watched Star Trek The Next Generation, then Deep Space Nine, and then Voyager. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Hing Potter [00:34:53]: Probably a toss-up between the The Daily, I think it is, and then the NPR Politics podcast in the afternoon. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:59]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Hing Potter [00:35:03]: Definitely wanna give a shout out to my friends on the API KCL looking forward to a 2024 conference experience that's gonna be amazing with you all. And then also specifically to my My awards and recognition co chairs Jerome and Justin. So really appreciate being with you all. And then, of course, Wanna give a shout out lastly to my best and favorite director ever out there in New York City, doctor Danielle Officer at John Jay College. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:33]: Ping, it's been a pleasure to hear about your transition today. If others would like to reach you after the show, how can they grab you? Hing Potter [00:35:39]: Send me a DM or Follow me on Instagram at Hing d Potter or threads. I guess that's the new thing these days. Feel free to follow me on threads. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:48]: Hing, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Hing Potter [00:35:50]: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me again. Really appreciate it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:56]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with to the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill Elcraton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a five a star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's to profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor to Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:44]: Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this week's bonus episode of the SA Voices From the Field Podcast, host Dr. Jill Creighton engaged in a thought-provoking discussion with guest Adam Jussel, the Dean of Students at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Through their conversation, Jussel provided valuable insights into the complexities of trauma-informed care and the profound impact it can have on individuals within a university setting. This blog post aims to delve deeper into the essential topics discussed during the episode, shedding light on the challenges and strategies related to addressing stress and trauma within a campus community. Exploring the Impact of the Pandemic on Mental Health Adam Jussel shared compelling findings from a study conducted on mental health among university employees during the pandemic. The research revealed alarming statistics, with 36% of participants screening positive for post-traumatic stress disorder and over 40% experiencing extreme stress or near-extreme stress. This data underscores the profound impact of the pandemic on the mental well-being of university staff and faculty. Identifying Contributing Factors and Mitigating Strategies The study identified various factors that contributed to heightened stress and trauma, including the challenges of caregiving, social isolation, uncertainty about the future, and the lack of tools to mitigate stress. Additionally, political and civic strife in the United States emerged as a significant contributor to exacerbating trauma and stress during the pandemic. On the other hand, the study also highlighted several mitigating factors, such as the presence of a strong social support network, spending time outside, physical activity, a sense of purpose, and meaningful experiences in work. Implementing Trauma-Informed Care Frameworks Adam Jussel emphasized the value of trauma-informed care and highlighted the creation of a trauma-informed care toolkit and workshops for the campus community. This proactive approach aimed at providing support, understanding, and resources for individuals impacted by trauma. The utilization of the campus cares framework facilitated the elevation of the frontline and mid-level staff's experience, fostering a culture of care across the university. The Role of Meaningful Work in Mitigating Trauma Jussel's discussion on the concept of the meaning of work and its potential to mitigate stress and trauma sheds light on the importance of cultivating a sense of purpose within the workforce. The ongoing research on this topic holds promising implications for the development of strategies to enhance the overall well-being of individuals in the workplace. Updates on Key Events in the NASPA World: The episode also provided informative updates on notable events within the NASPA world, including an upcoming national symposium and the 2024 NASPA virtual conference. This illustrates a commitment to fostering professional development and networking opportunities within the higher education community. Closing Thoughts The eye-opening conversation between Dr. Jill Creighton and Adam Jussel sheds light on the compelling work being done to address stress and trauma within university settings. It underscores the importance of implementing trauma-informed care frameworks and cultivating a supportive environment for faculty, staff, and students. As we navigate the complexities of the modern world, these insights serve as a beacon of hope, guiding us towards creating inclusive and empathetic communities within educational institutions. In conclusion, the podcast episode featuring Adam Jussel serves as a valuable resource, offering actionable insights for those involved in community support and trauma-informed care within educational environments. By acknowledging the challenges and opportunities in this space, we can collectively work towards creating nurturing and resilient communities. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Adam, welcome to the show. Adam Jussel [00:00:24]: Hey. Hey. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:26]: I'm glad to see you again. For our listeners, Adam and I, like many of our guests, have known each other in the field for what feels like Not a short time anymore. Adam Jussel [00:00:36]: Long time. Not a long time. Yeah. But we were very, very briefly colleagues at Washington State way back in the day. I think probably feels like a past life for both of us at this point. Adam Jussel [00:00:45]: Lots of gray hairs between, then and now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: Well, Adam, you're currently at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. We always love to start to get to know our guests by asking you, how did you get to your current seat? Adam Jussel [00:00:56]: Thank you for asking. A lot of people ask someone from the Pacific Northwest ends up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and it's totally by Both random set of circumstance and the profession. And so was it in the assistant dean of students role, director of student conduct at Washington State University, He was looking for a change, looking to move. I we joke that we wanted to be within at least a 20 minute drive of a Trader Joe's, and so looking for a little thing that was a little more Urban, public Washington, as you well know, not exactly the bustling city environment, so we wanted to try something new. And we're We're looking around the country really just to make a move, and UWM fit the bill both because of its access mission, and it is a research one institution. I have been in this role for a little over 4 years, and I am the dean of students and associate vice chancellor of student affairs. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:46]: So I like to Say that, you know, for me, civilization, as I learned in Pullman, was having an airport, a Target, and a Chipotle. I didn't know that about myself until I moved there. But as I was there, There was a Chipotle that opened right before the pandemic started, and then a Target came in, like, a year later. And they're getting a new airport, like, this month. So Adam Jussel [00:02:06]: Wonderful place. Still have lots of friends there. Met my now partner there, and and WSU is a great place to live and work for nearly 10 years. So, yeah, that Pullman, Washington. Go check it out if you haven't. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:17]: Well, if you're not checking out the police, you should also check out Adam's research, and that's really what we're gonna be talking with Adam today. You spent a lot of the pandemic focusing on trauma informed care, and that's really a core ethos for what you're doing in the DOS role At University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, for those of you who wanna go dive a little deeper, you can check out the trauma informed toolkit on the Dean of Students website for University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. But, also, Adam, you have a new article out with some coauthors that I'm excited to dig into today. This article can be found in psychological trauma theory research practice and policy journal, and it's coauthored by Elaine Goldstein, Dimitri Topotaz, and Roger Brown. Title of the article is mental health among university employees during the COVID nineteen pandemic, the role of previous life trauma and current post traumatic stress symptoms, which is a very, very long title. I know a lot of our listeners are like, are we done talking about the pandemic? But I think this is actually a really important topic as we transition into a post pandemic era for higher education for our students and for the field. So why don't you go ahead and break down on what this means in really simple terms. Start. Adam Jussel [00:03:26]: Thanks for the opening. Was really blessed to work on this research and continuing to work on this research, with those great colleagues, Dimitri, University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. And during the early phases of the pandemic, We had, like, a lot of campuses, really robust emergency operation command tactical response To what our students, faculty, and staff were experiencing as it relates to the pandemic. So we had testing protocols, and we had isolation and quarantine Processes. We had testing centers and then ultimately vaccination clinics. All of these kind of very operational pieces, but one element that was missing was, It may seem cliche to say, but it was the heart. You know, what were the psychosocial emotional experiences of our students? And really what this research digs into is the staff and We attempted to frame this work as the campus is an ecosystem. We can't care for our students unless we are carried for ourselves. Adam Jussel [00:04:23]: At least that's That's the way I kind of approached it. So the impetus for this work and the trauma informed care approach was under the hypothesis that we know that these jobs were stressful pre pandemic. Anybody listening to the student affairs focused podcast has moments where they said, hey, gosh. This job is so stressful. I feel like I'm burnt out. I feel like I'm Front line interacting with some really heavy stuff. And that the pandemic, at least we debated that. So we wanted to dig into the anecdotal experiences that folks were telling us about and really see what the research bore out using primarily, at least initially survey data. Adam Jussel [00:04:59]: That was kind of the genesis of this of this project. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: I think you make some really important points. We saw the mass exodus from the field post pandemic, with the great resignation, it deeply affected all industries and certainly student affairs. And anecdotally, one of the things we heard is the field asks Too much of people for not enough compensation. That's a constant theme, in student affairs. And so tell us about how your research really shown a light on how our profession was reacting. And I think one of the things that I appreciate about your article as well is that it really broke it down by identifiable factors curves of who you are in the profession and how it affected you differently. Adam Jussel [00:05:37]: Yeah. So for folks that ultimately direct people to read the article, but just kind of a cliff notes is We had nearly 650 recipients, 636 participants in our survey. Those scaffold across divisions, departments, Anywhere in the institution, but was focused only on staff and faculty because we really wanted to hone in on that experience. And of those 636 participants, a large amount, 36%. We use a post traumatic stress disorder screening tool. It's a metric that we use. 36% produced a positive post traumatic stress disorder screen As it related to pandemic related impacts. And so that doesn't mean that they have post traumatic stress disorder. Adam Jussel [00:06:14]: It just simply means that a screening tool identified them. There would be follow-up from A clinician or someone in the field to identify that and hone further, but that number was staggering to us. 36% is a high number. What illuminated it further was that over 40% experienced extreme stress or near extreme stress, so that's not your stress and trauma are different things. And we use that data To paint a picture to campus leadership, to the community members of what has the experience been, what can we use data to inform practices and principles. And And it really was a catalyst to all of us on campus of we need to care for people that are serving our students. So there's some really interesting mitigating factors that we found as well and and other risk factors that I could dive into if it's interesting. But this first element was just identifying awareness around the problem. Adam Jussel [00:07:06]: What are the issues we're facing, and what are those challenges? I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:08]: think that would be great if you can talk more about what are those mitigating and aggravating factors for predictors of stress. Adam Jussel [00:07:15]: Yeah. And don't let me go down a rabbit hole on on this too much, but the risk factors so being a caregiver was a risk factor for a positive post traumatic stress disorder screen. Caregiver is broader than just parent or guardian. So we have staff and faculty that have, obviously, their parents or guardians, but we also have staff and faculty that Have a loved one in their home that they're they're caring for, so caregiving was a risk factor. Social isolation, all of us experienced Some level of social isolation in the pandemic. And one of the tragedies of the pandemic, and other folks have said this in various different ways, is that It attacks the number 1 mitigator for trauma experiencing trauma, which is a strong social support network. And not having that mechanism at place, I think a lot of us experience, at least it's born out in our data, that that social isolation was a really a key factor for exacerbating stress and possibly trauma. The other thing that, was interesting was The uncertainty of the future. Adam Jussel [00:08:08]: When we've provided some trauma informed care workshops to students, 1 student stood out to me and said, if I knew that this would end on a certain date, If I could if you could tell me 6 months from now, pandemic over, pick a date, December, whatever, the students said I could bear that. I could understand that there's a finish line. I could Stack goals around that, but the uncertainty and kind of the wave of uncertainty was an exacerbating factor and a risk factor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:31]: So I've been working in China for the last 2 years or so. And that was a real thing here because the pandemic controls and mechanisms that we all face were very different than what was happening in the west. And then our students and our faculty and staff were going through 3 to 7 COVID tests, a week depending on what was going on. And then, you know, there were points where our faculty and staff were locked on the campus with our students and didn't leave for 2 or 3 months. And that environment is the exact Same messaging where, you know, if we knew that, you know, we had to do this for 60 days, we could mark our time. We could set goals. We could mentally prepare for what that's like. But when that endpoint doesn't exist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:11]: It really creates a sense of dread and a little bit of doom. Adam Jussel [00:09:15]: Yeah. Your experience, I appreciate you sharing that is A ton of follow-up questions, of course, of of that experience as it relates to this. But one thing I heard there was, hey. The tools that we have at our disposal to mitigate this might diminished, which is I can't see family and friends. I can't go for a walk outside. Maybe there are instances where that was possible, maybe not, but I can't go to the gym. I can't you know, there's all kinds of things that were eliminated by virtue of the pandemic, and it sounds like not so dissimilar in in your experience, but probably very dissimilar very, December at the same time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:49]: Well, and to be fair, I was not one of the team members that was on campus in the lockdown, but my staff was. I mean, that's because I I wasn't here yet during kind of that deepest period of time. But I hear from a lot of them too that, you know, it was just things like, I would really love a piece of fresh fruit, And that would that simple piece of health care would have been really, really mitigating for them. So I'd love to hear more about what those mitigating factors were. Adam Jussel [00:10:14]: Thanks for sharing that and asking. So the mitigating factors I already named one was the strong social support network. On the network of care, feeling like there are places and People you can turn to for help and support that you're not alone. Really big factors when someone is experiencing trauma or stress. Time outside, So being outside in nature and time with pets was significant. I would say time outside with pets is probably doubly good, but those were some massive Mitigating factors at least at a high level, and then you can dive in further in the research and literature and being physically active, having a purpose in life, Which really connects to the additional research we're doing currently, which is just having a meaningful experience in your work environment, What we call making meaning, does that is that a mitigator to stress and trauma? There's all kinds of research on the value of having a vision and a purpose, An identity bigger than yourself, and we're trying to connect it to the trauma field a little bit. And we're using a mixed method study to do that, and it's It's really fascinating what people are saying in our focus groups, and that's exciting work that I can talk about as well if you'd like me to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:18]: Someone asked a question about your research design, especially for any of our listeners who are pursuing their own Dr.ates. This is a time where you're trying to measure trauma and stress where the pandemic was not the only trauma and stressor serve for a US audience. It was a a wild time to be a person in the United States from Adam Jussel [00:11:34]: Yes. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:36]: Regardless of where you are on Any particular political spectrum, that was a wild time. It kinda still is a wild time. I just I don't feel it as much because I'm not there on a daily basis right now. But how did you tease apart as researchers the difference between the impact from COVID nineteen and the other influencing factors in the world? Adam Jussel [00:11:55]: Yeah. In the study, we know that the political and civic strife that was being experienced by a lot of folks in the United States, regardless of what political affiliation that a person had actually were exacerbating factors as it related to trauma and stresses really in the pandemic. And the way that we separated out in the in the studies, we actually, you know, Segmented out of the questions, and then we're very specific about the questions that we asked that were related to the pandemic versus the questions we had about Ancillary things, including that civic and political strike. But we do note in there that other factors were definitely at play, and and we know this just from our personal experiences that You can't really isolate an individual and say, well, what about this is one thing that is stressor? We we are meaning making machines that come in, and we bring our holistic experience. And reflected in our data too is that folks that had other health and financial stressors, other you know, I already said financial stressors, but That there were certain instances that no combination of mitigating factors could protect them against the negative implications of the pandemic, Which means that sometimes for the individuals that participated in the study, it was just too much, and there was nothing that they could have done without intense professional care. I can't. And this is something we're very careful about. I could tell someone to go walk their dog 6,000 times, and if they have experienced a level of stress and potentially trauma, though, those Tools, at least in our data, weren't weren't helpful. Adam Jussel [00:13:18]: So, yes, it's good to acknowledge the context in which we participated in the study. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:22]: Well, and sometimes not just Not helpful to suggest some of these more surface level components of care, but also could be seen as Literally uncaring as a leader of an organization or not just seen as, but could be literally uncaring because there's a big difference between, you know, the collective stress and collective trauma we were all going through that was abnormal from our daily lives compared with people that already had their plates very, very full. And then at that Age old meme where it's like, oh, you're experiencing a difficult work environment? Well, let's have a pizza party. That's not what we need to solve of some of these big issues. And one of the things that I appreciate about your work, as I mentioned, is that this kind of all resulted from a practice perspective in a trauma informed toolkit. So let's talk about that a little bit because I know that's really geared towards a lot of student work, but it applies deeply to your faculty and staff populations as well. So how did you operationalize the findings of the study to try to create more community care. Adam Jussel [00:14:23]: One of the cool parts about participating in this, and I this is the 1st article that I've ever been. For those who don't know, I have a JD. You do not have to produce Research as part of your JD. Some people do. So it's the 1st academic study I've been I've been a part of, which was really exciting. And one thing that I really, with My colleagues tried to focus on is we can't wait till this is published to produce and care for our campus community because as You know publishing takes a long time, so the trauma informed care toolkit and related workshops were created actually prior to us Publishing anything and actually diving into our research because the trauma informed care principles, at least as we saw it, were somewhat evergreen. There's things that we could do to make that a reality. And then once we published our research, we use that to inform our workshops and continue to hone those toolkits. Adam Jussel [00:15:13]: So the real bellwether or the real, I would say, the workshops themselves were the 1st program we really rolled out, and those were geared towards Faculty and staff. They were trying to do 2 different things. They were first trying to say, here's our students' experience, and here's how you care for those students. And, also, what we realized midstream is, oh, this is cathartic for the faculty and staff that are coming into this face as well because they're feeling validated by their experience. They're feeling empowered, and they're feeling like they're connected to other people. This is this kind of shared social experience. And teams were totally volunteer. We just put them in, like, newsletters and said, hey, folks. Adam Jussel [00:15:50]: If you're interested in this and in the year and a half that we launched, From when we launched there, when we concluded them, we did over a 150 of these across campus. And for someone that does mandatory training of folks Here on our campus, doing a 150 workshops is intense over a year and a half, but it also reflected the kind of scope and scale of the problem because I'm getting that level of interest in a voluntary program that's not being forced upon anybody. We had to chase that. There was something there. And the toolkits themselves were really about building capacity across campus understanding that I'm not an expert on the classroom dynamics in a faculty member's classroom, but I can give the the parameters Or how would you make your classroom trauma informed? And I hesitate to even say trauma informed because that's somewhat cliche at this point in time, and I think it's got some it might carry some baggage for folks. Oh, really, what it is is how do I create a classroom that's reciprocal and empowering and caring? So those toolkits are we're actually in another revision of them right now, but those toolkits in the workshop are based in Principles that even if we didn't have a pandemic would be good exercises and practices for folks in their workplace and that and the classroom. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:57]: Let's define trauma informed in this case. As you mentioned, it is kind of a buzzword in higher education at this point, and, some people operationalize it differently. How are you using the term? Adam Jussel [00:17:08]: Definition of trauma that we use is adopted by the Substance Abuse Mental Health Services association. And it's an event or series events that is experienced by an individual as physically or emotionally harmful or life Threatening with lasting adverse effects on the individual's functioning and mental, physical, social, emotional, or spiritual well-being. And the reason we like this definition is that it's it's more holistic than other definitions offered. It it talks about the entirety of the person's experience, But it also distinguishes between physical trauma, so someone that is experiencing physical harm or witnessing physical harm versus The impacts of something that may be systemic and long term like the pandemic. So there's other definitions of trauma that really focus on An acute single incident like a type one trauma. This broader definition from SAMHSA is broader and would take into context things that just happen over time, little cuts that happen over time. So trauma informed care takes that into consideration and asks the question, what do we how do we frame our workplace and our classroom In a way that acknowledges that someone may be experiencing in that space a significant amount of trauma or stress. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:19]: And looking at all of this, You've gone through the research process. You've gone through the workshop process. You're now in revisions. What's the pro tip that you can provide. What's the nugget for SA pros who are listening and going, oh, my campus needs this, or especially The other SSAOs going, how do I adopt this and and make it meaningful for my campus? Adam Jussel [00:18:40]: 1st, I would say the pro tip is Understand that you're seen and that this work is valuable in the sense that it lets folks know that, hey. These jobs are challenging. Anybody in the field that is aware of how they experience the pandemic and the work that they were doing, that this highlights that and actually paints a picture that allows for a certain level of advocacy on your campus. So I think Pointing to it and saying, hey. And I know there's a bunch of data now that reflects this, but this isn't just my feelings. This is actually an experience that is validated by by research. That's my I guess, more of an academic response. My gut response is any parts of this work can be applied to any campus. Adam Jussel [00:19:20]: And one thing that we've really learned, the framework we've applied is this campus cares framework, which is a fancy term for a program here on campus that's Grassroots, it's voluntary, but it is holistic. So instead of thinking about how do we just care for the students, how How do we make sure they have adequate resources, that they have counseling, that they have food pantry, that they have case management, that they have an emergency grant? This takes into consideration the first thing I said at the beginning, which is we can't do those things well unless we are part of that ecosystem. System. And so this campus CARES work has students, faculty, and staff from across campus. It's not a top down directive, so it's not something that we got From senior leadership that would just kind of just groundswell during the pandemic. It's that heart I was telling you about. And so my nugget here is that find the people on your campus, Students, faculty, and staff that embody this type of work, this type of care, put them in a room together and say, what does it mean to care for our campus, How do we do that? And it might mean something different to y'all, but it would likely mean something different to y'all than it does to us. But we did that in the early stages of this campus Cares framework. Adam Jussel [00:20:25]: We got a bunch of people in the room, and they said, what does it mean to be empathetic and caring in the face of a global pandemic? And all of the tools that we got out of it, the tool kits And the the workshops and the meditation spaces that we have on campus and the communications and storytelling are all grounded in that empathy, Empowerment and care, and I think that can be applied anywhere. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]: How has all of this effort changed your campus? Adam Jussel [00:20:49]: I can speak, and, obviously, I'm biased here, but I think it has elevated the experience of folks that would be considered either frontline or mid level staff to campus leadership in the community. So not to say that anybody had negative opinions of the campus prior to The pandemic. But I don't think they were generally aware of the level of stress that folks were experiencing in the pandemic and had experienced prior to the For me, personally, it has connected me directly, and I think connected everybody within the Campus Cares group to the extent that I can speak for all of them with those people that genuinely care about UWM and its students. And when you put that type of energy into a space, I think it catalyzes a lot of change and good, but also just makes me feel personally like I enjoy going to parts of work that I'm doing that because it's a bunch of people that are on the same team, so to speak. So I think it's changed, and we are really focused now on how do we keep this momentum going? How do we now that we're in this late in stages of the pandemic, and how do we scale this culture of care across campus. So that's the tougher problem, and I don't actually think we ever accomplished that. I think that's a thing that we will continue to do forever, but we've had some great conversations about what that actually means while we're doing this other practical work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:05]: The scaling question is always interesting when you're at such a large institution. Right? When you're at a small liberal arts university, the scaling question is as much simpler just because there are physically less people. But the common core of an institution, like in our one size, that's a very, very different beast. Adam Jussel [00:22:22]: Yeah. One of the things that I value professionally is just kind of meeting the hard challenges of doing it with kind of an open mind and curiosity, and This has definitely opened my aperture quite a bit on how we can do that and how big the issues are, and that is not just a checkbox. You can't just flip a giant switch somewhere and say, okay. Now we're good. So this will be something that will continue on, I think, hopefully, for a good long while here at UWM and at other places. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:46]: I'm gonna shift gears with you just a moment because we are in our bonus episode in between seasons 9 and 10, both of which are on the theme of transitions. So So I just briefly wanna touch on how does someone go from obtaining a law degree to being in student affairs full time? Adam Jussel [00:23:01]: It's a common question that I get. And the real answer is is that I cut my teeth in university housing. I was an RA for 3 years in college. And when I was leaving college and I decided to go to law school. I actually picked my law school, Seattle University, in part because I was fortunate To have the opportunity to work in housing, university housing while I was in law school, which on its face for anybody that's gone to law school, it's how do you go to law school and work in a residence all at the same time. I actually think it helped me quite a bit because, one, it created so much more structure around my life. And 2, it was people outside of the law school that I connected with, and I'm still colleagues and friends with. They really didn't care what I was doing in the law school. Adam Jussel [00:23:43]: They cared about me as a human, and So remove kind of that that stressor. They were great friends and kind of a mitigator distress. And when I left law school, I had this existential crisis of, I'm still liking this housing stuff. I'm still learning a lot, and I went and took the bar, and I thought, well, I guess I go practice law now. Right? I I worked at a firm for a while, and then I actually made the transition to the attorney general's office, which was represented all the institutions of higher education in the state of Washington and was an assistant attorney general actually representing Washington State University. I did that for a couple years, and I was still having that kind of, I wanna be on the other side. I Wanna be in the administration. The kind of natural inroad for a lot of people at that point in time with a JD was into the conduct space. Adam Jussel [00:24:26]: So I made the big move over the administration and did student conduct for what feels like an eternity, but it was 7, 8 years over at WSU and then since made this transition over here, and and I couldn't be more. I tell this to people all the time, and maybe it's my experience my previous experience is that while these jobs are stressful and They're very challenging, and I'm faced with challenges every day. The fact that I get to work on a college campus still is like I, like, pinch myself. Just the fact that I could walk onto our mall in the middle of a busy weekday and just be amongst 18, 19, 20 year olds and UWM students. It's just a it's a blessing. So that's how I made that transition. It's a long story, but I'm fortunate to have all those opportunities and people nudging me to do that along the way. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:08]: Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate the complexity of that, but also the simplicity of I was an RA first. That seems to be such, you know, a common student affairs journey. Adam Jussel [00:25:17]: I like to tell folks, I think once you do the ResLifer thing, you're a ResLifer at heart for a long time, and I don't think I've ever turned away from that. So that's my origin story as it were. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:27]: Is there anything else that you wanna share with our listeners? Adam Jussel [00:25:30]: I know I mentioned earlier the the the concept of meaning of work and and potentially how That could be a mitigator to, stress and and perhaps trauma. And really wanna note that our focus groups that we did in the spring, we did 4 of them. They were meant to expand on the initial survey instrument I noted earlier, building on that quantitative research And now using qualitative research in a mixed method study and sequentially and hopefully explanatory, we wanted to determine what factors and processes Would promote increased meaning of work, noting that the positive effects we saw through that could have helped with stress. There's a bevy of research out there about the positive impacts of having a a vision or a larger mission, but also want to explore how could that potentially decrease stress or at least be a protective factor. What we've just anecdotally, what we've seen so far is that the the work is hard and people really identify with that, and I've explained the statistics that are relating to that. But when it's Directly connected to a larger purpose or mission or community, it could be more motivating and, in fact, meaningful. And What we've also found is that the focus on the well-being of others, which is a core element of the campus cares initiative I mentioned, that can bring satisfaction in and out of work. And maybe This isn't particularly novel, but can actually reduce stress for folks as having that broader connection and that broader sense of purpose. Adam Jussel [00:26:55]: So I think that we'd be remiss without sharing that there is additional research being done there and and hopefully continue to imbue that work Within the campus cares initiative that we have on campus. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:06]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:12]: Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back again in the NASPA world, and there's a lot happening in NASPA. The NASPA annual conference is coming up March 9th through 13th in Seattle, Washington, and I hope that you will be able to join us. If you are going to join us, I know that we've mentioned this before, but we'll be going around asking questions, looking for your answers to have your voice be a part of a future episode. So watch out for me with my recorder or Jill with her recorder, and we'll be looking to capture your voice. At the NASPA annual conference, the opening and closing keynote speakers have just been announced recently. Dr. Sian Proctor and Alejandra Campa Verdi will be joining as opening and keynote speakers. The opening keynote is Dr. Sion Proctor Who is a geoscientist, explorer, space artist, and astronaut. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:08]: Dr. Sian Proctor is a geoscience professor at the Maricopa Community Colleges, An Afrofuturism artist and an astronaut. She is the chief inspiration astronaut of Space to Inspire and founder of the Procter Foundation For Art and Science. She was the mission pilot for SpaceX inspiration for the first all civilian Orbital mission. And our closing keynote speaker is Alejandra Campaverde. Alejandra Campaverde is a nationally recognized women's Health advocate, best selling author, founder, producer, and former White House aid to president Obama. Alejandra's memoir, First Gen, Examines the emotional toll of social mobility on first and only for those who are first generation in their families to cross a threshold. On February 2, 2024, on Zoom will be the 7th annual 1st generation graduate student symposium. Join the Boston University Newberry Center, Duke University first generation graduate student network, and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Carolina grad students grad student firsts, along with our cooperating sponsor, the Center For First Generation Student Success, For our 7th annual symposium for graduate and professional students on February 2, 2024. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:28]: This national symposium is open to any student who identifies as a 1st generation graduate or professional student and is studying any discipline. The keynote speaker for this event is Angela Bautista, A proud 1st generation student learner, educator, speaker, facilitator, coach, and diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging consultant. There's There's also gonna be a number of opportunities for you to network with other 1st generation graduate and professional students at institutions across the country, workshop sessions, and more. The event is on February 2nd and runs from from 1 EST to 5 PM EST. From June 23rd to 26 in Portland, Oregon Will be the 2024 NASPA m Ben Hogan Small Colleges and Universities Institute. This event is hosted on a biannual basis by By NASPA's Small Colleges and Universities division, the NASPA M. Ben Hogan Small Colleges and University Institute is a 4 day residential program During which vice presidents for student affairs and the equivalent and other senior level administrators engage in discussion and reflection about critical issues in student affairs and examine effective and innovative programs. Participation in this institute is limited to the highest Ranking student affairs officer on campus and other senior level administrators who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer and have substantial responsibility for divisional leadership. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:52]: The registration fee for this program includes housing and most meals and is an amazing experience To bring you together with other small colleges and university leaders. Find out more on the NASPA website. I mentioned the NASPA NASPA annual conference coming up In March, if you are unable to join the NASPA conference, we also have another great opportunity, which is the 2024 virtual conference, which will happen on April 2nd through 5, 2024. The 2024 NASPA virtual Conference is a 4 day interactive educational experience for student affairs professionals and partners where we will engage in high quality content centered around individual and team growth. There will be multiple educational sessions, including 8 extended learning workshops. Teams can participate in their personal and professional development through the live event and on demand. The best part of this is that if you register, All sessions will be available on demand for 365 days. So it's a great opportunity for your teams at your institutions to be able to access professional development over a long period. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:04]: If you haven't checked this out yet, I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to check it out, Learn more and find out how you can be involved with your team at your own institution. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within in the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening And allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And For all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers We're at the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you To be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, Your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:40]: Chris, thank you so much for this bonus NASPA world segment. We've got a lot coming up. I know annual conference is just around the corner at this point in time. We hope to see a lot of you in Seattle. Adam, we are now at our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. You ready to go? Adam Jussel [00:33:57]: Okay. Hippie, let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:59]: Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Adam Jussel [00:34:03]: Jitterbug. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:04]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Adam Jussel [00:34:07]: A pilot. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:08]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Adam Jussel [00:34:12]: Ken Wayne. He He was a professor at Seattle University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:14]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Adam Jussel [00:34:17]: Reframing campus conflict. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Adam Jussel [00:34:22]: We rewatched parks and rec the entirety of it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:25]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Adam Jussel [00:34:29]: On chair expert. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:30]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Adam Jussel [00:34:34]: Thanks, Jill, for the great question and for the opportunity to offer some shout outs. Obviously, I'm super grateful for all the people that have supported and influenced me along the way and try to share that gratitude when I can. Starting just With my time at Cal Lutheran and my 1st supervisors in residence life, Sally Lawrenson and Nate Fall, and then Danielle Hess And Adam Malcolm at the AG's office at WSU just taking a chance on me and allowing for that big transition that I noted earlier. And then, of course, my team at at UWM, including Becky Career, Abby Meadow, Ben Minogue, and Sarah Edmonson, even though Sarah has left us for another institution. Just super grateful for team here could not do it without them. And then, obviously, my professional career started at WSU, and I would be remiss without giving a shout out to them, including Karen Fisher, Melinda Husky, Karen Metzner, and Christina McGillfry, and just the entire Dida students team over there. I know they're doing great work. And then finally, just 2 mentors, Bill Stackman and Carrie Petter who answer all my weird questions every once in a while about my own growth in the career, and It's super helpful and just, again, very grateful for all these folks. Adam Jussel [00:35:45]: So shout outs to everybody. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:46]: Well, Adam, it's been a pleasure to reconnect with you today. If others would like to connect with you after the show. How can they find you? Adam Jussel [00:35:52]: You can email me, which is just jussell@uwm.edu, or my Instagram account is at Dean Dob Jessel. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:59]: Adam, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Adam Jussel [00:36:02]: Thank you, Jill. Take care, everybody. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and Please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton., That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

   Slam the Gavel welcomes back Laurie Smith, LMSW to the podcast. Laurie was last on  Season3,  Episode 170 and Season 4, Episodes 37, 75 and 153.  Laurie Smith, LMSW has obtained a  BSW (University of Michigan-Flint); MSW (University of Michigan, Specializing in Community and Social Systems); LMSW (State Licensure in MI and AK); Diabetes Prevention Specialist; Healthy Hearts Care Manager (an IHS project); Certified Diabetes Educator, Certified Clinical Anxiety Treatment Professional, Certified Clinical Trauma Professional, Certified Addictions Informed Mental Health Professional; Complex Care Manager; Stanford Chronic Disease Self Management Facilitator; Mindfulness Based Relapse Prevention; Integrated Harm Reduction Psychotherapy; SMART Recovery Facilitator; Human Rights Consultant; Little School of Big Change Alumni; Mentorship with National experts such as DeeDee Stout [Harm Reduction Expert | Dee-Dee Stout Consulting | California (deedeestoutconsulting.com)], Andrew Tatarsky [Services — Andrew Tatarsky, PhD] and Dr. Tom Horvath [A. Tom Horvath, PhD, Psychologist – Non 12 Step Drug Rehab and Alcohol Treatment (practicalrecovery.com)]; Author of LifeHacks: Tips and Tricks for Accessing Your Inner Resilience Life Hacks: Tips and Tricks for Accessing Your Inner Resilience – Kindle edition by Smith, Laurie. Self-Help Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.; Author Navigating the Storm Within: Cultivating Resilience and Growth through Nervous System Regulation; Owner Resilience Coach, LLC (private and group behavioral health practice [Resilience Coach | Counseling, Coaching & Enhancement | Plymouth, MI (resiliencecoachllc.com)]); Owner: Clouded Compass Coaching and Consulting, LLC; Podcast Creator: Clouded Compass Podcast. Neurodiverse, Survivor of multiple Traumas, Activist.     Great discussion regarding feelings and emotions that lead up to the holidays. We get distracted by our own expectations. We can be innocently neglectful towards our own needs. Does Christmas and family have to look a certain way?  No. We have intergenerational trauma.     It's time to take your power back because you get to have a say in this story when other things that are uncontrollable are happening in your life. It's okay to check in with yourself to see what YOU need. It's physically exhausting to metabolize stress chronically and that is why we are all in a state of survival mode. Finding distractions for ourselves, go for a walk, listen to certain music; you have that choice. "I will not continue to harm myself further by neglecting my own needs," Laurie explains. This is the act of rebellion.      "Chronic illness does have a say in the level of relationship in the world that day : ability, fatigue but it doesn't have a say in our ability to internally keep and maintain our own wellness," Laurie states.     Laurie talked about her new e-book: "Navigating The Storm Within: Cultivating Resilience and Growth Through Nervous System Regulation. To Reach Laurie Smith:  lsmith@resiliencecoachllc.com          https://linktr.ee/cloudedcompass SupportshowSupport the showSupportshow(https://www.buymeacoffee.com/maryannpetri)http://www.dismantlingfamilycourtcorruption.com/

   Slam the Gavel welcomes back Laurie Smith, LMSW to the podcast. Laurie was last on  Season3,  Episode 170 and Season 4, Episodes 37, 75 and 153.  Laurie Smith, LMSW as obtained a  BSW (University of Michigan-Flint); MSW (University of Michigan, Specializing in Community and Social Systems); LMSW (State Licensure in MI and AK); Diabetes Prevention Specialist; Healthy Hearts Care Manager (an IHS project); Certified Diabetes Educator, Certified Clinical Anxiety Treatment Professional, Certified Clinical Trauma Professional, Certified Addictions Informed Mental Health Professional; Complex Care Manager; Stanford Chronic Disease Self Management Facilitator; Mindfulness Based Relapse Prevention; Integrated Harm Reduction Psychotherapy; SMART Recovery Facilitator; Human Rights Consultant; Little School of Big Change Alumni; Mentorship with National experts such as DeeDee Stout [Harm Reduction Expert | Dee-Dee Stout Consulting | California (deedeestoutconsulting.com)], Andrew Tatarsky [Services — Andrew Tatarsky, PhD] and Dr. Tom Horvath [A. Tom Horvath, PhD, Psychologist – Non 12 Step Drug Rehab and Alcohol Treatment (practicalrecovery.com)]; Author of LifeHacks: Tips and Tricks for Accessing Your Inner Resilience Life Hacks: Tips and Tricks for Accessing Your Inner Resilience – Kindle edition by Smith, Laurie. Self-Help Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.; Author Navigating the Storm Within: Cultivating Resilience and Growth through Nervous System Regulation; Owner Resilience Coach, LLC (private and group behavioral health practice [Resilience Coach | Counseling, Coaching & Enhancement | Plymouth, MI (resiliencecoachllc.com)]); Owner: Clouded Compass Coaching and Consulting, LLC; Podcast Creator: Clouded Compass Podcast. Neurodiverse, Survivor of multiple Traumas, Activist.     Great discussion regarding feelings and emotions that lead up to the holidays. We get distracted by our own expectations. We can be innocently neglectful towards our own needs. Does Christmas and family have to look a certain way?  No. We have intergenerational trauma.     It's time to take your power back because you get to have a say in this story when other things that are uncontrollable are happening in your life. It's okay to check in with yourself to see what YOU need. It's physically exhausting to metabolize stress chronically and that is why we are all in a state of survival mode. Finding distractions for ourselves, go for a walk, listen to certain music; you have that choice. "I will not continue to harm myself further by neglecting my own needs," Laurie explains. This is the act of rebellion.      "Chronic illness does have a say in the level of relationship in the world that day : ability, fatigue but it doesn't have a say in our ability to internally keep and maintain our own wellness," Laurie states.     Laurie talked about her new e-book: "Navigating The Storm Within: Cultivating Resilience and Growth Through Nervous System Regulation. To Reach Laurie Smith:  lsmith@resiliencecoachllc.com          https://linktr.ee/cloudedcompassSupportshow Supportshow(https://www.buymeacoffee.com/maryannpetri)http://www.dismantlingfamilycourtcorruption.com/ Support the show --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/maryann-petri/support

In this week's episode of SA Voices From the Field, we bring you Dr. Lori White, the 21st president of DePauw University, to share her inspiring journey and valuable insights into higher education leadership. From her early years in student affairs to her groundbreaking role as a college president, Dr. White's story offers a roadmap for aspiring leaders and underscores the importance of mentorship, strategic decision-making, and student-centered leadership. The Path to Presidency Dr. White's journey to the presidency of DePauw University began with her undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, where she discovered her passion for student affairs at the University of California Irvine. This passion led her to a 40-year career in higher education, marked by a progression through various roles in student affairs and prolific authorship. Her commitment to promoting student access, equity, and success later propelled her to the presidency of DePauw University, where she saw an opportunity to shape university policies and influence. The Role of Mentors One key aspect of Dr. White's journey is the pivotal role of mentors in guiding her leadership path. Encouraged by mentors and colleagues to consider applying for a presidency, she was eventually nominated for the position by a fellow woman president. This underscores the profound impact of mentorship in shaping the careers of aspiring leaders and the importance of building a supportive network within the higher education community. The Transition and Challenges Stepping into the role of president amidst the COVID-19 pandemic presented unique challenges for Dr. White. She emphasized the need for immediate decision-making and virtual relationship-building, highlighting the dynamic nature of leadership in higher education and the adaptability required to navigate unforeseen obstacles. Empowering Student Affairs Professionals Dr. White's emphasis on the skills and experiences gained in student affairs sheds light on the breadth of responsibilities, ranging from working with academic affairs to managing business aspects, dealing with crises, engaging with alumni, and contributing to scholarly work and research. This insight demystifies the day-to-day responsibilities of a college president and underscores the scholarly aspects of student affairs professionals. Involving Stakeholders in Decision-Making Dr. White's advocacy for involving professionals at all levels in strategic planning underscores the importance of empowering emerging professionals to offer ideas and participate in decision-making processes. Additionally, her dedication to ensuring that student voices are heard through meaningful engagement with the student body president reflects a commitment to student-centered leadership and the value of seeking input from all stakeholders. NASPA Opportunities The episode also featured valuable updates and opportunities at the upcoming NASPA 2024 conference, including pre-conference events tailored for community college professionals, international student services practitioners, and undergraduate students. The conference aims to support the development of student affairs professionals and offers various short courses on relevant topics. Dr. Lori White's insights from her remarkable journey to the college presidency offer valuable lessons for leaders, emerging professionals, and students alike. Her emphasis on mentorship, strategic decision-making, and student-centered leadership serves as a guiding beacon for those navigating the complex landscape of higher education. Aspiring leaders can draw inspiration from Dr. White's journey, recognizing the transformative power of mentorship and the profound impact of inclusive, student-focused leadership in shaping the future of higher education. By embracing the principles and insights shared by Dr. White, the next generation of leaders can continue to drive positive change and progress within the realm of student affairs and higher education. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your SA voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices from the Field. This is our season finale of season 9 on transitions in student affairs, and I cannot think of a better human being to help us close out this season than Dr. Lori S. White. Dr. White was appointed the 21st president of DePauw University on March 4, 2020, and began her term on July 1, 2020. Prior, she was the vice chancellor for student affairs and a professor of practice at Washington UNiversity in Saint Louis. At DePauw, she also holds the rank of professor of education, and she's the 1st woman and the first person of color to serve as DePauw's president. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:58]: Dr. White has spent 40 years working in higher education. Prior to her arrival at Washington university. She served as the VP for student affairs and clinical professor of education at Southern Methodist University and also held posts at the University of Southern California, Stanford, Georgetown, San Diego State, and the University of California, Irvine. Active nationally in several higher education organizations, Since Dr. White has served on the board of directors for the Association For Sustainability in Higher Education and for NASPA's Foundation from team to 2017. In 2009, she was named a pillar of the profession by NASPA. She's currently serving on the Association of Governing Boards Council of Presidents and is a member of the Bipartisan and Policy Center's academic leaders task force on campus free expression. Dr. White is one of 5 founding college presidents of the liberal arts colleges racial equity leadership alliance. Dr. White's areas of emphasis in research and teaching include the student experience in higher ed and the preparation of mentorship for new mid-level and aspiring senior student affairs professionals. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:55]: She's the author of a number of articles and book chapters and has presented widely at professional meetings, including NASPA. Her most recent publications appear in a coedited volume called Transformational Encounters, shaping diverse college and university leaders, and another titled Keep Calm and Call the Dean of Students, a guide to understanding the many facets of the Dean of Students' role. Born and raised in San Francisco, Dr. White earned her undergraduate degree in psychology and English from the University of California, Berkeley and a Ph.D. from Stanford University in administration and policy analysis with emphasis on higher education. She also participated in Harvard University's management leadership in education program. Dr. White and her husband, Anthony Tillman, are both career educators with a deep passion and commitment to student access, equity, and success. Lori, we are so excited to have you on SA Voices today. Dr. Lori White [00:02:41]: So excited, Jill. Thank you for the invitation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:44]: And you've been such a staple of the student affairs profession, a stalwart, or if you will, having been a NASPA board chair, a pillar of the profession, and you've actually kind of left the field, kind of not left the field after many, many years, currently sitting in the seat as president at DePauw University, and we love to start all of our interviews by asking our guests, how did you get to your current seat. Dr. Lori White [00:03:07]: I appreciate you saying that I left the field of student affairs. I don't think anyone really ever leaves the field of student affairs, But I did transition to becoming the President of DePauw University in 2020. And I never imagined that I would be a college president, Jill. And part of the reason, I think, is that it's hard to imagine what you don't see. I identify as an African American, a cisgender female, and there are not that many females who are presidents of colleges and universities. There are not that many African Americans that are Presidents of colleges and universities, and so you can deduce from that there are not that many African American females that are Presidents of colleges and universities. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:52]: No kidding. Not enough people who are marginalized or from marginalized backgrounds in those seats. Dr. Lori White [00:03:56]: I was going to say that it really took mentors who encouraged me to think beyond what I had been doing, and I loved being a Vice President for student affairs and would have been happy to retire as a vice president for student affairs. But as you and I know, sometimes those who mentor us, encourage us to think beyond what we're doing currently and aspire to do something else. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:22]: That's for sure, especially our best mentors. Now, Lori, you had a prolific career up through the vice presidency of student affairs. Would you mind taking us through your journey from a new professional to VPSA? Dr. Lori White [00:04:32]: Sure. I did my undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, and the reason that I'm starting there is I'm now president of a liberal arts college. And I think if I had known that liberal arts colleges existed, that would have been a better fit for me. UC Berkeley gave me a great academic education, but I was lost in a sea of 30,000-plus students, And I never did any of the things that we always advise our students to do. Right? I never went to a faculty member's office hours. I didn't connect with all of the resources that I now know were available to me at UC Berkeley. And so when I graduated With my degree in English and psychology, I really wasn't sure what I was going to do. And it was my dad, who is a professor at the University of California, Irvine, who suggested that I think about working on a college campus. Dr. Lori White [00:05:27]: So perhaps unlike you, Jill, or folks in the generation that followed me, Who, you know, you might have been an orientation leader, or you worked in student activities, and then somebody taps you on the shoulder and said, you can do this for the rest of your life. I didn't have that experience, but it was my dad who said, try this out. I think this will be a great fit for what I know about what you love. And sure enough, I got my 1st job at the University of California Irvine. I fell in love with student affairs once I discovered who those people were, And I saw the work that they were doing to mentor, support, and advise students. And I knew if I'd had somebody like that working with me when I was an undergraduate, my experience would have been different. And so, you know, 40-something years later, I'm still working in higher education, 10 years at UC Irvine, doing a number of things. Probably most impactful was being the director of the cross-cultural center at UC Irvine, One of the very first cross-cultural, multicultural centers in the state, probably in the country. Dr. Lori White [00:06:34]: After that, I went back to graduate school. I quit my full-time job, made the best decision ever in my life, became a full-time graduate student, and got my Ph.D. at Stanford University. And then after that, I've done what, most of my colleagues have done, started moving my way up the student affairs ladder, worked at Georgetown University, At San Diego State University, back at Stanford, also at the University of Southern California, got my 1st vice President's position at Southern Methodist University. I was the VP there for eight years, and then I was the vice president or vice chancellor for student affairs at Washington University in Saint Louis for five years before I became president of DePauw. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:18]: And you're also quite a prolific author. So, if you've Probably read Lori's work, maybe without knowing it, but I think the highlight for me is, keep calm and call the dean of students. That's a critical one. Dr. Lori White [00:07:29]: Yes. I love the title. Love the title. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:32]: Absolutely. Lori, when you and I ran into each other, I think it was Boston for NASPA this last go around. While we were standing there together, I asked you if you love being a President compared to being a VPSA. And I recall you saying to me, it stuck with me: I loved being a VPSA, but I feel called to do the work of being the President. Can you talk to us about that transition from being the person leading the student affairs experience, which is really the, you know, the head experience officer for a university, to be in that position of figurehead, fundraiser, policymaker, influencer? Dr. Lori White [00:08:12]: The first question you asked me was, Why did I decide to be a college president? Dr. Lori White [00:08:19]: And so it aligns with my response to your Question. And you have a great memory because that's exactly what I said. I love being a vice president for student affairs and feel called to serve as a college president. When I visited DePauw University, I was discerning whether I would say yes if I got the job offer. I was in this space on my campus where the portraits of all of the previous presidents hang. I am president number 21. And as I looked around that room, and I saw the portraits of Presidents 1 through 20, none of whom looked like me, Literally, a voice from above said, they're gonna offer you that job. And when they do, you need to say yes. Dr. Lori White [00:09:04]: It's not about you, Lori. It's what you represent for future generations. Future generations need to know that it's possible for somebody who looks like you to be president of DePauw University. And so that is why I felt called to serve. I also realized within my 1st couple of days on the job that even though, as I tell people, I was scared to death on my 1st day of the overwhelming responsibility of being a college president, I sometimes walk out of my office, and I look around, and I think to myself, o m g. I'm responsible for all of this. Right? So, you know, every decision that I make, impacts a student and their experience, impacts our faculty, impacts our employees, impacts our alumni, and sometimes that's an overwhelming responsibility. However, I'm really driven by how important it is for us every day To make sure that our colleges and universities are doing their best to educate students and to make sure that every student that we admit and who agrees to join our wonderful community is able to realize their hopes and their dreams. Dr. Lori White [00:10:14]: And it was my background in student affairs That really, I think, has enabled me to be a successful President. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:21]: I think the most interesting part of being a college president out of the student affairs pathway is that it's still a fairly new transition. Most college presidents come out of that provost space. Some are, you know, business officers at the VP level. But I'm aware of very few VPSAs who've really gone on to that. I'll shout out a few off the top of my head. Dr. Frank Sanchez, who mentored me when I was at CU Denver, and Dr. Robin Holmes Sullivan out at Reed University. She came out of that VPSA ship not that long ago. Then, Dr. Rod Kelly, who also came out of student affairs vice presidency and is now, I believe, the University of Portland. So, the student affairs vice presidency is now, I believe, at the University of Portland. So it's really exciting to see it happening, but I also don't know that student affairs professionals really aspire to that direction. I feel like the VPSA role is the top of that aspirational ladder for a lot of people, and popping the top to the presidency doesn't really feel like it's been on the table or been realistic. Tell us about how you made that realistic for yourself and what made you even wanna apply. Dr. Lori White [00:11:17]: Sure. And thanks for the list of those folks, all great friends of mine. We all grew up together in student affairs. I would also add John Hoffman to that list. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:27]: Yeah. Very new as well. Dr. Lori White [00:11:29]: Right. Exactly. Several others are now getting opportunities because I think Boards are realizing the breadth of skills that student affairs professionals bring to the job. So let's see what led me to decide I wanted to put my baby toe in the water to actually apply for a presidency. I mentioned earlier that I had mentors who were encouraging me to think about a presidency, including my boss at WashU, who was the provost at the time and was the previous chancellor at the University of North Carolina. I also remember I had given a speech for NASPA, And after I left the stage, Mike Sagawa, who is also one of my longtime mentors, said to me, Lori, you just need to be a college president. And there were other voices, you know, in the field and otherwise, who were encouraging me to move forward. I happened to be on a panel with 2 other women, both of whom were college presidents. Dr. Lori White [00:12:33]: Following that panel discussion, the call came out for the presidency of DePauw, And one of those women nominated me for the job. I don't know if I hadn't received the nomination if I would've thought about applying for the position. But once the search firm reached out to me and I understood I'd been nominated by a woman who was a president, I thought to myself, I'm hearing these voices. Another President nominated me. You know, what's the worst that can happen to me? I always say to folks that when you apply for those jobs, the worst that can happen is you lose your time and your ego. Right? Because, you know, your time just in terms of, the time it takes to prepare the materials and your ego if you ultimately don't get the job. Right? And so I tell people, Jill, that I applied for the job for practice. I thought to myself, let me prepare my materials. Dr. Lori White [00:13:26]: Let me see what kind of feedback I get. And then, when I'm ready, I will know what I need to work on for me to be ready for that next step. I never imagined I was actually going to get the job, which I think speaks to women. And often, people of color undervalue and underestimate the skills that we have. Right? So, you know, somebody Might see a job description, and let's say there are ten things that are required. And I would say, and most women would say, and many people of color would say, well, I only have 9 out of the 10. So until I get all 10, I'm not applying. Someone else would say, oh, I've got 3 of those things. Oh, yeah. Dr. Lori White [00:14:07]: I'm going for, and so, you know, I was in that group of folks thinking that I didn't have enough experience or because I wasn't an academic, Etcetera. And so, as I said, I never imagined I would get the job. But I learned, Jill, that those of us who come up through Student affairs have mad skills. Right? We, first of all, are one of the few people on the president's cabinet who have to look at the entire university. Right? Because in our roles, we work with academic affairs. We obviously, you know, work with all the areas of student affairs. Most of us run some level of business because we're running auxiliaries, residence halls, Bookstores, and student unions. We have to deal with campus crises. Dr. Lori White [00:14:54]: Often, we are raising money and if we're not raising money. We are interacting with our alumni and others who, because of their experiences Inside and outside of the classroom, are more interested then in giving back to the university, and we deal with oftentimes complicated divisions and organizations. And so, I didn't really understand how all of that would play into Being a college president, but as I went through the interview process, I was able to articulate all of the work that I had done on behalf of the university In order for the board to see me in that role as their president. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:36]: I want everyone to rewind, like, 1 minute and listen to Lori Rattle off that list again because she just helped you rewrite your cover letter right there. Dr. Lori White [00:15:47]: That's wonderful. That's exactly it. Right? We also teach and write and do research. And so for those who believe that only a pure academic can be a college president, Again, in student affairs, most of us are active scholar-practitioners. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]: Absolutely. It's kind of a wild thing to think about about a career in higher education. And I think that many of my colleagues still couldn't really tell you what a president does on a day-to-day basis. I'm wondering if you can demystify that a little bit. Dr. Lori White [00:16:16]: I would love to know the answer to that myself. Right? What do we do on a daily basis? The most important part of the job of a president is this. Number one is working with your board, and that's probably something that most folks Looking outside of the presidency don't realize, so I spend a lot of time working with my board, particularly at a Private university, my board or my chief fundraisers. And so making sure that those individuals that are on my board, Who are volunteering on behalf of the university, are in the know about what's happening on campus, are excited such that they want to be able to continue To contribute their treasures, and can advise me about all of the complicated pieces of running, you know, a multimillion-dollar company. And so spend a lot of time working with the board. Spend a lot of time on fundraising because, again, as a private independent college, we're not getting any money from the state. And so lots of presidents like me were on the road a lot, out there, interacting with our alumni and Friends, sharing the good news about what's happening on campus, and so I spend a lot of time, particularly once we got out of the pandemic, Spend a lot of time out on the road. Also spend time supporting my vice president. Dr. Lori White [00:17:41]: So, you know, I went from a vice president To now having a number of vice presidents who are working for me, and I wanna make sure that my vice presidents have what it is that they need In order to effectively run their divisions on campus. And then probably, lastly, and most importantly, again, for a small college we spend 247 every day talking about admissions. Because, you know, I'm unable to deliver a class of students, we can't pay our bills. And so we spend a lot of time strategically thinking about What it is that we need to do to present ourselves to this really competitive market of prospective students such that they will be excited About applying for DePauw and excited about accepting our offer of admission. So those are probably the high-level things that I do, and then, of course, all of us Have all the administrative work that comes with any high-level job that you might have. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:42]: I think it's really important for listeners to hear the president has a boss, but it's not a single boss. It's a group of people. Dr. Lori White [00:18:48]: It's a group of bosses. Right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:49]: Group of bosses. Lori, can you talk about the transition mindset that you had to go through and make for yourself from the day that you took off your vice president of student affairs hat and put on your president hat. Dr. Lori White [00:19:00]: I had an unusual entry into the job because remember, I was selected as DePauw's president in March of 2020. So I came to campus the 1st week of March for all of the hoopla of the announcement, Which was very exciting. And then, a week later, the entire world turned upside down. So right away, I had to make, really important decisions that affected the future of our institution. So I went from thinking about presidential 1st year as a Meet and greet to a presidential 1st year of deciding, do I open the university or not? If we open the university, how many students Will we invite back to campus? Are we gonna require vaccinations? All of those parts and pieces I had to do as a brand new president or All of those decisions I had to make right away as a brand new president and get to know my community virtually. So, again, none of that is What most new presidents do when you go on that listening tour. I had to do the listening tour, but I had to do it all virtually. And the board asked me to deliver a strategic plan right away, and again, I had to figure out a way to do that on a campus where I didn't have any preexisting relationships. Dr. Lori White [00:20:19]: Do that within my 1st year and, again, do that all virtually. So, it was a very different kind of first and 2nd year as a president than I had imagined. And, again, I think my student affairs experiences really served me well because I knew how to relationship build. I knew how to manage in a crisis, though none of us knew how to manage this level of crisis, but I knew What is required in order to respond to, you know, ever-changing rules and policies, and have to make, those kinds of of really important decisions, at least I felt like I'd had some experience doing that. I obviously had some strategic planning experience, and so had to focus on how to figure out how to translate That experience that I had used in strategic planning for a division for an entire campus. And I think the other thing we're good doing in student affairs is keeping people's spirits up and being ever optimistic regardless of the challenge in front of us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:25]: Now thinking about all those VPSAs who might be listening today, what would you like to tell them about their applications for presidencies? Dr. Lori White [00:21:33]: I know several of them will probably call me, which is fine, or reach out to me about navigating the presidential search process, and I'm more than happy to do that. And what I always say to folks is we need good leaders. We need good presidential leaders and, you know, anyone in student affairs Who thinks they might want to be a college president, I would support and encourage that. And with this caveat, I always tell people, It's not the title. It's the job. And so you have to decide you want to do the work of being a college president, not just be excited by the fancy title. The work is really hard. It's even harder than being a vice president for student affairs. Dr. Lori White [00:22:13]: As I said, when I walk out of my door, I realize and recognize I have responsibility for everything at the university, not just some slice of it, and you have to be you're a public figure. Every day, somebody's mad at me for something. Right. At least in student affairs, a person might be mad at me, but most people liked me. You know, in this job, every day, there's somebody who's with the president about something, a decision that you've made, a communication that you have offered or not offered, a program that you've had to sunset, Whatever that might be, somebody's always upset with you, and so you have to be driven by what you think is the long term mission and focus of the institution and feel like every day you're making progress toward that. And if you feel like you can do that, Then you can be excited about the work. If being liked 100% of the time or, you know, feeling that you're are always gonna have all the answers, if that's Something that is most important to you, this is not the job. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:12]: Totally fair. And the person who might be mad at you may not even be at your institution, depending on what kind of presidency. Dr. Lori White [00:23:19]: Or an alum who is not excited about what the alum seeds as a change in the direction of the institution. And for those of us who love places that we have been a part of, Change is hard. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:32]: For sure. Let's flip that question a little bit. Now that you're sitting in the presidency seat, has that transitioned your mindset at all on the role of the VPSA? Dr. Lori White [00:23:39]: You know, it's such a great question, Jill, because I have a great vice president for student affairs, Dr. John Mark Day. And he and I laugh frequently because sometimes when we're in conversation and we're talking about students or student issues, I look at him and I say, you know what? I said, I'm not to where I'm responding with my president hat on, or I used to be a vice president of student affairs hat on. And so, of all of the people on my cabinet, I really wanna make sure that I am not getting in the lane of the vice president for student affairs just because I used to do that job. And I think the vice president for student affairs also appreciates a president who used to do that job and really understands, you know, all of the critical issues that he is wrestling with every day. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:28]: We've talked a lot about the BPSA, but I also wanna talk about that 1st-year professional who is very far away from the presidency in terms of hierarchy in an organization and who is deeply affected by presidential decisions but maybe doesn't always understand them, or get to be in the rooms where a rationale for those decisions are being shared. What can you say to our entry and mid-level professionals who might be confused or set about a presidential decision or who might go? I don't understand why we're doing it this way. Dr. Lori White [00:24:55]: I appreciate that question also, Jill. Certainly, I have gotten that a lot. We had to make some really tough decisions in the spring that affected some particular student populations, and I think Emerging professionals and students were not completely understanding of the reasoning for making those decisions. Part of that, I wanna own because I think we could have done a better job of articulating the why. And, to your point, you know, when I was a younger professional, I was just focused on a particular area that I was responsible for, and I never really thought about the big university as a whole. And so what I would encourage, you know, new and emerging professionals is, as a president, I have to make decisions that affect the university not only tomorrow, but for the next 186 years; we're 186 years old. So, you know, the ramifications of any decision that I make have to stand the university well through the course of its next generation. And I think often Younger and emerging professionals aren't able to see that bigger picture. Dr. Lori White [00:26:01]: And so what I would encourage them to do is make sure that they're interacting team with their directors, interacting with their associate vice presidents, and the vice president to educate themselves About, you know, what is the larger context, for any decisions that a president might make, and are there ways in which That emerging or younger professional can give what is probably really valuable feedback, about those big decisions that the president is considering. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:29]: Our emerging professionals are often the ones who are closest to our students as well. They hear the students most clearly and often are closest in age to our students, so they can truly stand the challenges facing our students better than a senior administrator can. With that in mind, how can or how should an emerging professional or new professional share what they know upward? Dr. Lori White [00:26:51]: I think it depends on the place. So, you know, I and what I mean about that is, you know, at a big, Complicated university. It is unlikely that an emerging professional is gonna be able to directly email the president. Right? And so, in those places, it's most important to go up the chain of, you know, I'm trying to think of another word for the chain of command, but the organizational structure. Right. So, you know, sharing that with your director, your director, in turn, shares that with their AVP, and the AVP, in turn, shares that with the VP, who then can share that with the president. You know, at a small place, I'm pretty accessible. And so while I it would not be politically kosher Or, you know, emerging professional to jump over all those hoops and come directly to me with something they hadn't shared with their vice president. Dr. Lori White [00:27:42]: People also know that I'm a very accessible president. My email, you know, is open to everybody on campus. People don't hesitate to reach out to me, and so I certainly would encourage somebody on my campus, certainly, if there's something they wanted to share with me To do so, but I would want them to copy in the people for whom they work so that those folks aren't blindsided. I also think, you know, as leaders, One of the things I'm really proud that I did and I need to do more of is that when I created our strategic planning teams when I first arrived, I said I want people at all levels of the organization to participate, not just the usual suspects and not just the people, who are at the highest level of the organizational chart because I know, that there are great ideas throughout the organization, and I wanted to empower Those younger folks to feel like they could offer their ideas and participate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:36]: That's wonderful to hear that the strategic planning is considering all levels. I know that not all organizations do that, but it's a true example of giving voice to all professionals. Really appreciate it. Dr. Lori White [00:28:47]: Right. I think that I think that's important. I think we need to do a better job of how we can best involve our students. And I think, you know, whenever I talk with students, I say to them, tell me, You know, what is the most effective way for us to hear your voice? Because, you know, we will often hear when we make a decision, well, students weren't informed, They weren't consulted, and sometimes we have informed and consulted, and sometimes we haven't done a really good job of doing that. And sometimes, we may have done that, but not with the right student population. So I think continued interactions with our students about the best way for us to make sure their voices are heard is important. As a matter of fact, tomorrow, I have a meeting with our student body president. I realized that somehow, in the midst of the pandemic, That regular meeting between the president and the student body president had fallen off of my schedule, and I know how important that So I'm excited that we are able to make sure that that's happening. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:44]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]: Thanks so much, Joe. Excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there are so many things that are happening in our association I'm excited to share with you today. The NASPA 2024 conference is going to be here before we know it, March 9th through 13th in Seattle, Washington. And there's been a lot of updates, a lot of things that are Coming down the pipeline that you need to be thinking about if you are planning to attend registration, need to jump into housing. There are a lot of things to consider, but there are also some great pre-conference opportunities that are going to be at the conference as well. So not only are there going to be amazing sessions during the regular sessions of the conference itself, but if you come a little bit early, You can take advantage of the learning at a number of really great pre-conferences that are always Providing high-level quality information that is going to help you in many different ways. A couple of the pre-conference highlights that I would throw out there: the 2024 NASPA Community College Institute, or CCI, is a uniquely tailored experience for community college professionals. This exclusive event accelerates your development, fosters collaboration, and provides insight to reshape program organization and student support services for enhanced student success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:14]: The 2024 NASPA International Symposium. The symposium fosters global dialogue on student affairs, aiming to broaden perspectives and forge connections across borders. Aligned with NASPA's commitment to global readiness, the symposium benefits those in international student services and practitioners seeking to enhance Global competency. The 2024 NASPA undergraduate student conference. This conference provides a firsthand learning opportunity for undergraduate students To gain knowledge and understanding of student affairs work, awareness, and professional associations, opportunities for networking, and resources To assist in defining their career trajectory in student affairs. Highly encourage you to go to the conference website, Check it out for yourself see all the opportunities that are available, and sign up now before the preconference session that you want to go to is full. The 2024 NASPA Mid-Level Administrators Conference is coming up June 13th through 15th in Indianapolis, Indiana. This conference is a dynamic professional development event designed to provide mid-level student affairs professionals with the opportunity to engage and learn with colleagues and student affairs administrators. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:30]: Participants will gain insight from promising practices and personal reflections to develop their professional competencies, networking, and supervisory skills further and acquire new skills and strategies to improve their professional practice. The mid-level administrator's conference is designed for those student affairs professionals who Serve in roles between but not including entry-level positions and AVP and the equivalent roles. Additionally, professionals who have been serving in entry-level roles for at least 5 years are welcome to attend. You have until March 29, 2024, to get in under the early bird registration, so you still have a little bit of time, but I encourage you to do this now and jump in on this great learning opportunity. There are a couple of great NASPA short courses that are available that are starting in January of 2024 that I wanted to make sure that you were aware of. The first goes from January 21st through February 24th, and that is on student affairs at Small colleges and universities. In this course, you can explore challenges and opportunities at small colleges, and this is for leaders, traders, and faculty who serve at institutions with under 5,000 students. The 2nd short course is Title IX Certificate in Winter 24. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]: Now, while the new Title IX rules are finalized, compliance with current rules is crucial. This course offers rule-specific training, including an updated module on proposed rules and recent court decisions. The course actually runs from January 22nd through February 23rd. And finally, the last short course I'll mention today is Assessment by Design, which applies systems thinking to inform assessment practice. Now this course shifts the focus from measuring outcomes to evaluating design. Embrace a systems approach to student affairs assessment, Reflecting on the purpose, challenges, and value of defining the work design. All of these and more are available on the NASPA website. When you go to the NASPA website, go to the NASPA online learning community for additional live and on-demand offerings. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:40]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you Up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. As you're doing that, it's important to identify where you fit for yourself. Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you and allow you to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encouraging you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts and your talents To the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]: Chris, we really appreciate you putting together these NASPA world segments all season. That one is our final NASPA world segment for this season 9. So, Lori, you are now our final lightning round for season 9 as well. I've got seven questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll? Dr. Lori White [00:36:22]: Ready to roll. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:23]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, What would your entrance music be? Dr. Lori White [00:36:29]: Something from Earth, Wind, and Fire celebration. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:32]: Oh, that's a good one. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Dr. Lori White [00:36:37]: I wanted to be a scientist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:39]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Lori White [00:36:40]: Dr. Condoleezza Rice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:42]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Lori White [00:36:47]: Call the Dean of Students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:50]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Lori White [00:36:53]: SUV. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:55]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Lori White [00:36:57]: Yours. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:59]: And finally, number 7, any shout-outs you'd like to give, personal or professional. Dr. Lori White [00:37:04]: Oh, shout-outs to all of my peeps in student affairs. Can't wait to see all of you at the Seattle conference, and I'll be holding office hours in the bar per usual. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:15]: Lori, we are so grateful that you were willing to give us your time. We know how busy you are in the presidency role. I know your advice today has been incredible, not only for me, but for all of our listeners. If folks would like to get a hold of you and they're not gonna be in Seattle, how can they find you? Dr. Lori White [00:37:29]: President@depauw.edu . Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:32]: Can you spell DePauw for us? Dr. Lori White [00:37:33]: Sure. Depauw, and the w is important because, DePaul and DePauw are 2 different places. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:43]: Lori, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Lori White [00:37:47]: Thank you so much, Jill. Thank you so much for the invitation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:51]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show. You can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:24]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio-engineered by Dr. Christopher Lewis. Guest coordination by Liu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Kathleen Edelman joins Sanger and Shawn to discuss the four temperament styles, so you can gain understanding, avoid miscommunications, and truly hear people.WANT THE FULL EPISODE? Check out yesterday's episode, Ep.117 I Kathleen Edelman I Deciding for Effective Communication: The Root-Cause Approach of Temperament Styles, or download it directly using this link. KEY TOPICS A root-cause approach to eliminating conflict. Taking responsibility for your own communication. Understanding the temperaments to better understand your team. Using the temperaments to inform your hiring decisions. WHAT'S MY TEMPERAMENT? Sanguine (yellow): Speaks the language of people and fun. Choleric (red): Speaks the language of power and control. Melancholic (blue): Speaks the language of order and perfection. Phlegmatic (green): Speaks the language of calm and harmony. CONNECT WITH USwww.decidedlypodcast.com Join us on Instagram: @decidedlypodcast Join us on FacebookShawn's Instagram: @shawn_d_smith Sanger's Instagram: @sangersmith GRAB YOUR COPY OF SANGER'S BOOK A Life Rich with Significance: Transforming Your Wealth to Meaningful Impact MAKING A FINANCIAL DECISION?At Decidedly Wealth Management, we focus on decision-making as the foundational element of success, in our effort to empower families to purposefully apply their wealth to fulfill their values and build a thriving legacy. LEARN MOREwww.decidedlywealth.comSUBSCRIBE TO OUR WEEKLY DECISION-MAKING TIP EMAILCONNECT WITH KATHLEEN EDELMAN The ColorWorks Group website Book a Training with Kathleen's Team I Said This, You Heard That website Kind Words Are Cool website I Said This, You Heard That YouTube Channel Kathleen's Amazon Author Page Kathleen's LinkedIn Instagram: @Isaidyouheard Kathleen's Facebook I Said This, You Heard That Facebook Kathleen Edelman is a leading author, speaker, and communications specialist whose journey began with her graduation from Powers High School in 1979. Armed with her Powers education, she went on to study at Western Michigan University and the University of Michigan – Flint before moving to California. She married her husband Brad and lived out west for seven years, taking on work as a real estate appraiser and salesperson as they started their lives together. Throughout her career journey, Kathleen always had a guiding passion. From the time she was a child, she had been troubled by miscommunication. Why do so many people seem to talk past each other when they have discussions or arguments? Why do people say things they don't mean? Above all, she wondered why people would say unkind things to each other when it wasn't necessary – especially because, in her view, it was never necessary. She always wanted to help people become better communicators, but it wasn't until she and Brad, her husband, moved to Maryland in 1991 that her passion found direction. During the long car ride from coast to coast, she listened to the work of Florence Littauer, an author of temperament-based books. Littauer's theories sparked an odyssey for Kathleen that, in some ways, is still ongoing today. Kathleen realized that the keys to kind and productive communication are empathy and mutual understanding. Everyone naturally speaks and hears all language from their own individual innate wirings. This means that something said by one person can be interpreted in a completely unique way by another. This gap – the space between what is said and what is heard – is often the root of conflict in marriages, business relationships, and friendships. She found the solution to this miscommunication in her study of the four temperaments – melancholy, phlegmatic, choleric, and sanguine. The temperaments are a method for classifying individuals based on their natural tendencies, needs, strengths, weaknesses, and innate needs. Each temperament has a different set of these – for example, melancholy individuals thrive on space and silence, whereas sanguines need acceptance and approval to feel fulfilled. Kathleen discovered that understanding the temperaments is vital to healthy communication. First, when someone understands their own temperament, they are better equipped to understand their emotional, spiritual, and social needs. Filling these needs and effectively communicating them to others can help a person operate in their strengths rather than in their weaknesses. Furthermore, understanding the innate wiring of another person allows one to “speak their language.” For example, even if you say the exact same words to a choleric and a phlegmatic,they'll each probably hear something completely different. Kathleen found that teaching people to communicate intentionally in this way is often the key to saving relationships. Knowing the innate needs of others allows us to love them better. Her study was always motivated by her strong faith – specifically, all of her work on communication centers upon the directive passed down by Christ through Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4:29: “Do not let any unwholesome words come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up, according to their needs, so that it may benefit those who listen.” Because of her spiritual focus, she partnered with North Point Ministries to spread the message of healthy, temperament-based communication as widely as possible. She has written a workbook, recorded several free videos, and released a six-week bible study called “I Said This, You Heard That” aimed at developing communication skills by educating people about the four temperaments through the framework of Ephesians 4:29 (if you are curious, you can check out her work on her website at isaidyouheard.study). Kathleen regularly travels around the country speaking about and providing training on temperaments and empathetic communication – in total, her work has already impacted millions of relationships worldwide. Currently, Kathleen lives in Georgia with her husband Brad. The two live about an hour north of Atlanta, and enjoy spending time with friends and family, enjoying the lake or working on projects around the house. She has two children, Avery and Brice, who also live in Georgia. Avery, her daughter, graduated from the University of Georgia in 2019 and works as a graphic designer. Brice, her son, started a coding education company after receiving his degree from Georgia Tech in 2020. Kathleen published her second book in 2021 called “A Grown-Up's Guide To Kids' Wiring,” which teaches better communication skills to anyone in the life of a child or teenager: parents, grandparents, coaches, counselors, aunt, uncles, neighbors, etc! Kathleen continues to speak and teach across the country, as well as meet oe-on-one with people for personal coaching. The demand for Kathleen and her content has been so high that she has expanded her team to include a small group of women who speak and teach on her behalf, when needed. She has one thing that she'd like to say to every single person reading this: “The words you use are the words you choose; remember, kind words are cool!”

Kathleen Edelman joins Sanger and Shawn to discuss the four temperament styles, so you can gain understanding, avoid miscommunications, and truly hear people. KEY TOPICS A root-cause approach to eliminating conflict. Taking responsibility for your own communication. Understanding the temperaments to better understand your team. Using the temperaments to inform your hiring decisions. WHAT'S MY TEMPERAMENT? Sanguine (yellow): Speaks the language of people and fun. Choleric (red): Speaks the language of power and control. Melancholic (blue): Speaks the language of order and perfection. Phlegmatic (green): Speaks the language of calm and harmony. CONNECT WITH USwww.decidedlypodcast.com Join us on Instagram: @decidedlypodcast Join us on FacebookShawn's Instagram: @shawn_d_smith Sanger's Instagram: @sangersmith GRAB YOUR COPY OF SANGER'S BOOK A Life Rich with Significance: Transforming Your Wealth to Meaningful Impact MAKING A FINANCIAL DECISION?At Decidedly Wealth Management, we focus on decision-making as the foundational element of success, in our effort to empower families to purposefully apply their wealth to fulfill their values and build a thriving legacy. LEARN MOREwww.decidedlywealth.comSUBSCRIBE TO OUR WEEKLY DECISION-MAKING TIP EMAILCONNECT WITH KATHLEEN EDELMAN The ColorWorks Group website Book a Training with Kathleen's Team I Said This, You Heard That website Kind Words Are Cool website I Said This, You Heard That YouTube Channel Kathleen's Amazon Author Page Kathleen's LinkedIn Instagram: @Isaidyouheard Kathleen's Facebook I Said This, You Heard That Facebook Kathleen Edelman is a leading author, speaker, and communications specialist whose journey began with her graduation from Powers High School in 1979. Armed with her Powers education, she went on to study at Western Michigan University and the University of Michigan – Flint before moving to California. She married her husband Brad and lived out west for seven years, taking on work as a real estate appraiser and salesperson as they started their lives together. Throughout her career journey, Kathleen always had a guiding passion. From the time she was a child, she had been troubled by miscommunication. Why do so many people seem to talk past each other when they have discussions or arguments? Why do people say things they don't mean? Above all, she wondered why people would say unkind things to each other when it wasn't necessary – especially because, in her view, it was never necessary. She always wanted to help people become better communicators, but it wasn't until she and Brad, her husband, moved to Maryland in 1991 that her passion found direction. During the long car ride from coast to coast, she listened to the work of Florence Littauer, an author of temperament-based books. Littauer's theories sparked an odyssey for Kathleen that, in some ways, is still ongoing today. Kathleen realized that the keys to kind and productive communication are empathy and mutual understanding. Everyone naturally speaks and hears all language from their own individual innate wirings. This means that something said by one person can be interpreted in a completely unique way by another. This gap – the space between what is said and what is heard – is often the root of conflict in marriages, business relationships, and friendships. She found the solution to this miscommunication in her study of the four temperaments – melancholy, phlegmatic, choleric, and sanguine. The temperaments are a method for classifying individuals based on their natural tendencies, needs, strengths, weaknesses, and innate needs. Each temperament has a different set of these – for example, melancholy individuals thrive on space and silence, whereas sanguines need acceptance and approval to feel fulfilled. Kathleen discovered that understanding the temperaments is vital to healthy communication. First, when someone understands their own temperament, they are better equipped to understand their emotional, spiritual, and social needs. Filling these needs and effectively communicating them to others can help a person operate in their strengths rather than in their weaknesses. Furthermore, understanding the innate wiring of another person allows one to “speak their language.” For example, even if you say the exact same words to a choleric and a phlegmatic,they'll each probably hear something completely different. Kathleen found that teaching people to communicate intentionally in this way is often the key to saving relationships. Knowing the innate needs of others allows us to love them better. Her study was always motivated by her strong faith – specifically, all of her work on communication centers upon the directive passed down by Christ through Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4:29: “Do not let any unwholesome words come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up, according to their needs, so that it may benefit those who listen.” Because of her spiritual focus, she partnered with North Point Ministries to spread the message of healthy, temperament-based communication as widely as possible. She has written a workbook, recorded several free videos, and released a six-week bible study called “I Said This, You Heard That” aimed at developing communication skills by educating people about the four temperaments through the framework of Ephesians 4:29 (if you are curious, you can check out her work on her website at isaidyouheard.study). Kathleen regularly travels around the country speaking about and providing training on temperaments and empathetic communication – in total, her work has already impacted millions of relationships worldwide. Currently, Kathleen lives in Georgia with her husband Brad. The two live about an hour north of Atlanta, and enjoy spending time with friends and family, enjoying the lake or working on projects around the house. She has two children, Avery and Brice, who also live in Georgia. Avery, her daughter, graduated from the University of Georgia in 2019 and works as a graphic designer. Brice, her son, started a coding education company after receiving his degree from Georgia Tech in 2020. Kathleen published her second book in 2021 called “A Grown-Up's Guide To Kids' Wiring,” which teaches better communication skills to anyone in the life of a child or teenager: parents, grandparents, coaches, counselors, aunt, uncles, neighbors, etc! Kathleen continues to speak and teach across the country, as well as meet oe-on-one with people for personal coaching. The demand for Kathleen and her content has been so high that she has expanded her team to include a small group of women who speak and teach on her behalf, when needed. She has one thing that she'd like to say to every single person reading this: “The words you use are the words you choose; remember, kind words are cool!”

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton, welcomes W. Houston Dougharty, a seasoned student affairs professional with a four-decade career in various leadership roles at multiple colleges and universities. They explore Dr. Dougharty's journey in the field, the changes he has witnessed over the years, and the lessons he has learned. W. Houston Dougharty discusses his early passion for college life and how he started his career in admissions. He reflects on the significant changes brought about by technology and the complexity of students' lives in the current era compared to the simpler college life of the past. The two also discuss the importance of adapting to these changes while maintaining the fundamental relationship-based nature of the student affairs profession. As W. Houston Dougharty transitioned from associate dean to senior student affairs officer to vice president, he shared how he continued to stay connected with students and emphasized the value of maintaining informal, friendly relationships with them. He also reflects on the challenges and support mechanisms as students navigate their growth and development. W. Houston Dougharty's publications on theory to practice, ethical decision-making, and executive transitions are discussed. He explains how these opportunities came about through his connections with colleagues in NASPA and how they helped him bridge theory and practice within the field of student affairs. The episode concludes with W. Houston Dougharty sharing his experiences in retirement, emphasizing the importance of service and community involvement. He mentions his volunteering activities and how he is finding ways to engage with the community and stay connected to education and student affairs through consulting and coaching opportunities. Overall, the episode highlights the evolution of the student affairs field over the years, the enduring importance of relationships, and the importance of embracing change while upholding core values in the profession. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of essay voices from the field. Today's conversation features the distinguished W Houston Doherty. Houston is a 4 decade college student affairs leader who served as senior student affairs officer at Grinnell College, Hofstra University, Lewis and Clark College, and the University of Puget Sound. Before these leadership roles, he served as associate dean of students at Iowa State, preceded by a decade as a highly successful leader in enrollment management. He earned his degrees from Puget Sound, Western Washington, and the University of California Santa Barbara.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: He received the distinguished service to the profession award from the Iowa Student Personnel Association in 2011 and the outstanding senior student affairs officer award from NASPA SPUG region 4 East in 2013. In 2018, he was named a pillar of the profession by NASPA, and in 2021, he was awarded the Scott Goodnight award for outstanding performance as a dean by NASPA region 2. He was ultimately honored in 22 when NASPA awarded him the National Scott Goodnight Award. In 2023, he was also awarded the University of Puget Sound's distinguished alumni award for professional achievement. He served NASPA as James e Scott Academy board member, as faculty director for the 2022 NASA Institute for new vice president for student affairs and as the faculty director of the NASPA Institute for aspiring vice presidents for student affairs in 2011. Houston also served on the regional boards for NASPA regions 2 for east and five. He's been cited in numerous publications, for example, the New York Times, the Chronicle of Higher patience, Seattle Times, USA Today, etcetera, and is published in a number of books including Linking Theory to Practice, Case Studies with College Students, which has 2 editions from 2012, the Advocate College Guide from 06, Maybe I Should, Case Studies on Ethics for Student Affairs Professionals in 09, and Executive Transitions in Student Affairs in 2014. In retirement, Houston is active and student affairs consulting and coaching and serving on the board of the KUNM Public Radio and in volunteering for the Food Depot Big Brothers and Big Sisters as a loyal alum of Santa Fe Prep and Puget Sound.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:14]: Houston, I'm so glad to have you on SA Voices today.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:02:16]: Thank you. It's terrific to talk to you and To meet you.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:19]: So this is the 1st time we're talking. And in true student affairs tradition, I suppose, in our preshow talk, we discovered we have many, many mutual students and have in fact lived in some of the same cities, just not at the same time.   Dr. W. Houston Dougharty [00:02:32]: It's that classic 2 degrees of separation in student affairs. It takes A 32nd conversation to figure out the 18 people you both know.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:41]: Absolutely. And now we get to know each other. But, Houston, you have recently retired from the profession with an extraordinarily accomplished resume as you've contributed to the field and made your mark in different ways. So we're gonna move through kind of your journey, but I'm wondering if you can give us the highlights of kinda your stops along the way. And ultimately, you became a pillar of the profession, Scott Goodnight award winner, a number of those very prestigious honors in NASPA. Sir. But what led you to that journey?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:03:08]: Well, I was just telling somebody yesterday, a graduate student who was asking me about my career. I just I had to start by saying, I'm really one of the luckiest guys on the planet because I've had the chance to spend 4 decades helping folks realize their dreams And get in touch with their talents and help create the world they wanna live in. And it really started during My undergraduate career as a student at Puget Sound back in the seventies and early eighties when I fell in love with college. And it didn't take me long to figure out that if I could Figure out a way to live my life on a college campus, I would be a very, very happy person. So I started my life in admissions At my undergraduate institution at Puget Sound, like a lot of us do. And then I had a a small family, and my wife said, you're gonna travel how much? And then I went back to graduate school at Western Washington and then at UC Santa Barbara and realized that what I really loved doing was being a part of students' lives every single day. So I've had the chance to do that on 8 different college campuses in six States over 40 years. And I've been at little tiny liberal arts colleges like Grinnell and Lewis and Clark and Puget Sound, and I've been at big places like UCSB and Iowa State.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:04:23]: And then I I finished my career at a place that kind of blends the 2, Hofstra, right outside of New York City, Which is over 10,000, a bunch of graduate and professional schools, but also only 3 or 4000 residential students. So, again, I just think I'm very, very fortunate to have had been a part of Students' lives and colleagues' lives for that period of time at all those different places.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:43]: One of the reasons we were so excited to have you on this season about the themes of transitions is you've been able to mark the story of student affairs from the late seventies, early eighties until literally the present. So you started in student affairs before we had really evolved in a technological school space before social media, before email, before, you know, all of these different ways that student development and student affairs work has really been deeply impacted and in a lot of ways, you know, growing in the improvement space from that technology. We actually just had a conversation with Eric Stoler about The transformation of technology in higher ed is a is a huge component of our work. But I'm hoping you can tell us about where the field was anchored when you started and how you've seen it grow in that transition space of society growing.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:05:27]: One of the things that I'm pleased about, in spite of all the change in the last 40 plus years, is that I still think it is fundamentally a relationship based profession where we're able to most Positively impact students' lives by taking the time to get to know them, and to be supportive of them. And at the same time, I wrote a piece For Scott Academy blog, as I rolled off this summer from Scott Academy board, I talked about One of the main changes, and that is in the complexity of our world and the complexity of our students' lives. And it sort of hearkened back to how simple in many ways college life was in the seventies eighties when there were no cell phones, where, you weren't inundated with with news 24 hours a day where life just seemed slower And simpler and perhaps more relationship oriented in a natural way. And one of the things that our profession has had to do Considerably is adjust to that complexity, to make sure that we're relevant in students' lives And relevant in a world that has changed some.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:42]: Houston, one of the things you mentioned about the transition was kind of this simplicity of college life when you started in the profession. And I'm wondering if you can just define that a little more about what that kind of simplicity space looked like and felt like for you as a professional and for the students that were attending college.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:06:59]: Sure. Well and a lot of it is tied to technology in that For the 1st 10 years of my professional life, I didn't have a computer on my desk. There was no such thing as email. In fact, when I went to graduate school in the early nineties, I very distinctly remember the very first assignment we had was to send an email. And that's Very funny to think of is and and we were nervous, and we didn't have Gmail. We used a server called Eudora is how we send our email. Students did not have the constant tether of outside information, like 24 hour news or Podcasts or the ability to text with their friends all over the world, they also lived in some ways not only a simpler life, but a more independent life Because their parents and their family members or their guardians were in sporadic conversation with them As opposed to now where students are con you know, walking out of class and texting their mom about the class thing. You know, I remember When I was in college, you know, my parents lived 1500 miles away, and we talked every other Saturday for 10 minutes by pay phone.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:08:14]: That's a whole different world than than the kind of constant, communication and Styles of parenting have changed dramatically. So I would say technology and family dynamics are 2 of the things that I've noticed the most. And   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:28]: Well, I'm sure that that phone call was quite expensive, and if parents are not home to receive that phone call, that's it.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:08:35]: That's right. And I was the first person in my family to have gone very far away to college. My parents did not, have much money. I bought a little, you know, a little card that I could use on a payphone, and we would need it. You know, we'd call it 1 o'clock on Saturday every other week. And it was a very valuable conversation, station. But it was a 10 minute conversation. And I can't help but think in many ways I grew and my independence because we had so little conversation.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:04]: And yet at the same time, I'm sure there's there's part of our lives that we would have loved to have shared, Which so many students can do so much more easily now.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:13]: One of the conversations I have at new student orientation every year now is with parents and giving them my personal challenge to give a little bit of that untethering, some of that freedom. And my my 1st 6 weeks challenge is always, Don't text your student until they text you first.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:30]: Love that.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:31]: And that really feels impossible for a lot of parents. And then this year, I had 1 parent who actually responded in one of our parent groups and, said, I'm taking team Creighton's advice because my student told me I'm annoying them.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:46]: It's very true. And I think because students and parents have been so accustomed To be in such close contact, it's tempting for parents to then wanna solve rather than allow students to be in discomfort. And as we in our field know, growth is what comes from discomfort. And so I think your advice is really good advice so that students can have some comfort and try to learn to navigate things without their parents constantly or their guardians constantly coaching them. And And   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:17]: that's what we're trying to do a lot is have, you know, discern the difference between discomfort and growth and crisis, right? We don't want students floundering. That's the challenge and support theory that we've been operating off of for years. I mean, we're just figuring out differently.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:10:31]: Well, and again, that just as the relationship basis Our field hasn't changed in 40 years. The challenge and support has not changed. I think, though, it's nuanced as we've had to adjust To family dynamics being different and technology being different. That the challenge and support is still critical, but it's mix and it's nuance Has had to shift with the changes in our world.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:56]: Certainly. And I've been reading and listening to a lot of information on AI right now because, you know, there's bold statements out in the world like AI is gonna take over human jobs. And then I think about what we do or what our counterparts in counseling do or counterparts in therapy do. And while AI can certainly be harnessed to make our jobs easier, there's no replacement for a person to sit across from you and provide you with emotional support or comfort or guidance.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:11:21]: Yeah. And I I think coming out of COVID, we were that was even reinforced with us, wasn't it, Jill? That As much as we found that we could do long distance or or through a screen or through other modes of communication, so many of us were so anxious to get back to an environment where we could actually have coffee with students, where we could actually be in the lounges of the residence halls, where they could come to our office hours Because of that, the sort of genuine nature of that caring relationship that is engendered by being in person.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:53]: Absolutely. And For me, those who have worked with me at previous institution or have read any of my recent LinkedIn stuff, I I'm very much a proponent of the remote and hybrid work space for higher ed. So I think that there's an interesting balance for how we take care of ourselves and also show up in our best way for students. And I really think that's hybrid going forward because we can do both. Right? We can give people the flexibility, that they need to live a whole life and then also be there for students when our students need us.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:12:20]: Well, and it has to be both and. Right? And we learn so much about what we can do differently that it's important that we not simply revert back to what we were comfortable with, especially those of us who are older and have been doing this a long time, but that we say, so how do we take the best of what technology offers us And a hybrid world offers us, and also hold on to the things that have always been dear to us.   Jill Creighton [00:12:44]: I wanna talk a little bit about your publications. You've had quite a career publishing books on a number of things, including theory to practice, ethical decision making, executive transitions. What inspired you to write on these topics?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:12:57]: Well, all of those opportunities came about because of Colleagues that I've had through NASPA, folks who are faculty friends, who were once colleagues, who then wanted a practitioner to join them in a scholarly exercise. And I think if you're referring to the case some of the case study books I've helped work on, I think in many ways, there's no better training Then trying to think about how one applies through the practice. I also was invited to be part of the executive transitions book that, You know, it was all about sort of going from the world of AVP or dean to VP. And, again, the chapter I helped write with Joannes Van Heke In that book was about how you take change theory and how you take a theory around leadership and apply it to the practical nature Of understanding a new campus and understanding a new role on campus. So that space of theory and practice link has always really intrigued me, And I've been so thankful, Flo Hamrick and me and Benjamin and and, you know, the folks who have invited me to really be a practitioner or scholar and join them In writing about that theory and practice world.   Jill Creighton [00:14:10]: Because you have participated in a book literally with the word transitions in the title, I would love to know if you have any nuggets that you'd like to share for current practitioners that are looking at that switch from number 2 to number 1.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:14:23]: It's a fascinating time in one's professional life when you think about that shift. And and I distinctly remember having conversations about Never wanting to be a VP because I loved being an AVP or a number 2 so much. And I was always afraid That if I became a vice president, and then, of course, I ended up being a vice president for almost 20 years, that I would lose contact every day with students. And what I realized was that that was my responsibility, that that there was no institution that could take The posture that as a VP, you can't hang out with students as much or you can't be in their lives as actively. But that's a choice I had to make. And, consequently, as I looked at VP Jobs, I had to make sure that I was taking a position At an institution that shared that value of mine, that value and that vocational dedication to having relationships with both undergraduate and, when possible, graduate students. And I basically found that at the 4 places where I was an SAO. I was able to make that part of my life, and it was still really foundational for me since I was So often the only person at the cabinet level who knew a lot of students by first name and knew their experience, and my job was to help represent them.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:15:48]: Right. So I'm so glad that I didn't shy away from advancing to the vice president seat, But I'm equally thrilled that I did so with a commitment to staying in touch with the student experience.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]: When you think about how your roles evolved in your career, how did your relationships with students transition as you kind of moved up the proverbial ladder.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:16:11]: At several places, I was known by students as the vice president who doesn't seem like 1. In that folks who may be listening to this, you know me know I'm not a very formal person. Now I grew up in the southwest where we say y'all and where it's laid back and where it's unusual to wear a tie. And and I was able to take that to lots of parts of the country. When I was offered the job at Hofstra right outside of New York City, there were other administrators there who thought, well, maybe this guy's not gonna be a very good batch because he's he doesn't act or look very vice presidential. He's not very, serious, or he's not very, buttoned up. And what I found is that at all of the institutions where I was lucky to work, there were students who loved the fact that I was Informal. And that and that doesn't mean I didn't take my job incredibly seriously and that I didn't realize that my job was was helping build buildings and hire staff and and enforce policy.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:17:07]: But again, before this notion of both and, that it can be both and. I could still be my Rather casual, friendly self and also be a very competent and a very successful administrator. And then in fact, Having the opportunity to be in the student section at ball games and at lectures and concerts and plays with them and Sitting with them and having lunch with them and having weekly office hours made me better at being a competent Administrator because I was in more in touch with what the student experience was.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:45]: One of the reasons I love serving in the CSAO COC is because I get to learn from our students every day. I learn so much from our population here at my current university. We come from so many diverse grounds. Wondering if you can share with us maybe a nugget that you've learned from a student over the years.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:18:03]: Sure. I have particularly loved Getting to know student leaders. And I've, you know, I've advised student government and so I think particularly of 1 student who I worked with very closely at Sure. Who was I haven't been a member of a a group led organization. She was the president of Panhellenic, and She taught me a sense of language, a sense of understanding values around fraternity and sorority life, but also how to mediate. We were working on a building project, and the ways she mentored me And helping represent the administration with students who are so passionate about space and about their organizations. I was made a much better administrator for spending the time with Reba and having her be feeling like I could sit back and say, Reba, this is your expertise. These are the people that you know so much better than I do, and you know their organizations better than I do.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:19:02]: I'm gonna take your lead As we try to compromise on some situations here, and then she just did brilliantly. And as I think about mentors I've had, I have her on my list of mentors as someone who is and then she went on to do our our graduate degree at Hofstra. And coincidentally, through four 3 or 4 years after she graduated, she also saved my life by donating a kidney to me when I was in a health crisis.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:26]: Oh my goodness.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:19:27]: And she was one of 75 or 80 students who volunteered to be tested when I was in the last stages of renal failure. And, you know, she she came to me and she said, from the first Time I met you at orientation, I knew I wanted to be a vice president for student affairs someday. And even if I never become 1, my kidney will be. And, you know, it's just remarkable that this student who has a 19 or 20 year old impacted my life so remarkably As a professional, Nao has sort of become part of our family by literally giving up herself to save my life.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:59]: That's amazing.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:20:00]: That may not have been the answer you were thinking about when you thought about what I've learned from a student. But   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:06]: This is exactly why we ask open ended questions. We always get these rich stories. It's beautiful. Houston, you're now in the retired space, and I'm wondering tell us about that experience of moving from what is a very fast pace and demanding job at the CSAO level into a life where you can make a lot more of your own choices.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:20:28]: Well, in some ways, I was benefited by having COVID be the few years right before. I will and also have this medical leave from my kidney transplant because My wife, Kimberly, and I were actually really concerned about what life would be for me after retirement because student affairs has been for me a lifestyle, not just Not and it's been a vocation and a lifestyle, not just a job. And she always said, what are you gonna do without a campus? You have had a campus for 45 years. And so in many ways, having the world sort of slow down around me with COVID, I realized that there are things I love to read. You know, I've always been very interested in the arts, and I've been very interested in athletics. I was able to dive into those in a way that I didn't realize that I hadn't really had the time to do that while I was on a campus as fully engaged. And don't get me wrong. I absolutely loved that engagement.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:21:23]: I wouldn't have traded that for anything. But what it did was it taught us both that there is life for me Off campus and yet I've spent 40 years as someone who has embraced a vocation of service And now I'm figuring out ways to embrace avocations of service. Just today, I spent 3 hours volunteering at The local food bank here in Santa Fe, and I'm getting involved in Big Brothers, Big Sisters. I'm on the board of the New Mexico NPR Geek Geek, so The KUNM radio station I'm on the I've been appointed to that board. So I've been able to sort of find ways, and I'm Still finding ways. I mean, who knows what that will be in the next 20, 25 years of my life. But service to others is important to me, and so it was really important To Kimberly and me that we find ways coming back to my hometown. I don't think I mentioned that, but I grew up in Santa Fe, New Mexico.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:22:16]: I left for 44 years and then we bought a house Five blocks from the house I grew up in, and so I'm rediscovering my hometown through sort of a lens of service. Yesterday, I volunteered at a college fair at the high school I went to Santa Fe Prep. In 2 weeks, I'm going to be at homecoming at Puget Sound because I'm on the alumni council. So you can't really get me off campus. I'm also doing a little bit of consulting. I'm doing some executive coaching with a vice president in Pennsylvania. I'm gonna be working with Some folks in student affairs at University of New Mexico, but just in sort of a consulting kind of space. So I read 5 newspapers a day every morning.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:22:52]: We love that. I walk my dog for 6 or 7 miles every day. My wife and I have nice long conversations and have time to go to dinner in a way that we haven't for the last 35 years. So that's sort of how I'm conceptualizing. I'm only 3 months in to formal retirement having left New York on June 1st and coming back home to Santa Fe.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:13]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:19]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, And I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. The NASBA Foundation is pleased to recognize outstanding members of the student affairs and higher education community through the pillars of the profession award and one of the foundation's highest honors. This award comes from you, our members and supporters, as a way to pay tribute to your fellow colleagues who represent Outstanding contributions to the field and our organization. The NASPA Foundation board of directors is honored to designate the, pillar of the profession to the following individuals, Teresa Claunch, associate vice president for student life and dean of students at Washburn University, Danielle DeSowal, clinical professor and coordinator of the higher education and student affairs master's program at Indiana University, Martha And Cezzle, associate vice president for student affairs, California State University Fullerton. Amy Hecht, vice president for student affairs at Florida State University. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs, University of Michigan Flint.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:29]: Kimberly Lowery, director of college leadership and impact, the Aspen Institute. Edward Martinez, associate dean for student affairs, Suffolk County Community College, Jukuru or KC Limimji, vice president for student affairs, Southern Methodist University, Ramon Dunnech, associate vice president, University of Nevada, Reno. Adam Peck, posthumously awarded Assistant vice president for student affairs at Illinois State University. Christine Quamio, interim assistant vice provost for diversity and inclusion, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Darby Roberts, Director, department of student affairs planning assessment and research, Texas A&M University, Marcela Runnell, vice president for student life, and dean of students at Mount Holyoke College. Tiffany Smith, director of research, American Indian Science and Engineering Society. Don Stansbury, vice president for student affairs, Clayton State University. Belinda Stoops, associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. Mary Blanchard Wallace, assistant vice president for student experience, University of Alabama at Birmingham, and Leslie Webb, Vice provost for student success in campus life, University of Montana.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:38]: If I accidentally said the names of these amazing The Jewel is wrong. I am so sorry. I want to say thank you to all of them for all of their unwavering support, for our association, for the profession, and congratulations on this amazing honor to each and every one of them. The pillars of the profession program also allows for you to be able to help The foundation in many different ways. You can give a gift in the name of one of these pillars to support them and also to Support the NASPA Foundation and all of the great work that they do to be able to push our profession forward. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to the foundation's page, and you can give a gift of any amount in the name of any one of these pillars to support them. You can also support multiple pillars if you want to. Highly encourage you to go support Pillars today and be able to continue supporting our foundation in so many different ways.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:45]: Also, on top of the pillars of the profession, the foundation also Selects a distinguished pillar of the profession award. The 2024 John l Blackburn distinguished pillar of the profession award is given to 2 different individuals, including Sherry Callahan, retired vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and posthumously to Teresa Powell, vice president for student affairs at Temple University. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening And allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers Or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:35]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:39]: Chris, it's always such a pleasure to hear from you on NASPA World and what's going on in and around NASPA. So, Houston, we have reached our lightning round where I have about 90 seconds for you to answer 7 questions. You ready to do this?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:28:53]: Let's do it.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:55]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:00]: Can I offer a couple?   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:02]: Sure   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:02]: I'm a huge fan of the blues, and queen of the blues, Koko Taylor, has a song that I absolutely love called let the good times roll, And I feel like my career has been a lot of good times. And then I I'm also a huge Talking Heads fan, and so whenever Talking Heads burning down the house Comes in, I'm ready, so I'd offer those too.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:21]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:25]: When I was five, I either wanted to be a farmer like my grandfather, or I was starting to think maybe I would be the governor of New Mexico.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:34]: Not too late for that one. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:40]: I would say, if I could rattle off a couple, The 1st person who gave me a break in student affairs after having spent 10 years in admissions was Kathy McKay, Who was the dean of students then at Iowa State University.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:53]: And I know Kathy.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:54]: Okay. So Kathy and I are are very, very close. And in fact, she now lives in Denver, so we're only 5 hours from each other. So Kathy's who gave me my big break at Iowa State back in the day. At Iowa State, I learned so much from Nancy Evans, who was on the faculty there, and she and I both have clear research and research about students with disabilities in our areas of interest, and I learned so much from her and Ronnie Sandlow. I learned so much from Ronnie and and then Susan Pierce, who was the president of Puget Sound when I came back here in the Dean's student's office. Those are the women that come to mind most quickly for me. Sorry. I couldn't limit to one. And and there's so many others that I would love to include.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:34]: So fun fact, I was working at CU Denver when Kathy was the dean at Metro State University of Denver. Yep. And then also when I took the ADP dean of students job at WSU, I replaced Cathy who was doing it internally. So I love these weird connections in student affairs.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:30:50]: Isn't it Funny.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:51]: Let's move on. Number 4, what's your essential student affairs read?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:30:55]: Well, I'm very interested in sort of alternative notions of leadership, These are not new books at all, but there are these little thin books by a guy named Max Dupree. One is called Leadership is an Art And the other one is called Leadership Jazz. And I'm a huge blues and jazz person, so I particularly love that little volume, which basically talks about Great leadership is like leading a jazz band where everybody gets a solo, and I just love that notion of blending the notion of music and jazz.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:31:26]: So the hospital I was in in Manhattan had BBC America. I found this really great show called Grand Design where people dream about Where they would like to live and they renovate a space. And if you ever have connection to BBC Grand Design, It's just lovely, and it's British, so it's sort of witty. And I can't do anything with a hammer myself, so I love it when other people do.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:54]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:31:58]: The moth. I love to hear people tell stories, And so I've sort of gone back into the catalog of The Moth, and so I love The Moth.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:07]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:32:11]: Oh my gosh. Of course, my family, you know, my loving wife, Kimberly, and our kids, Finn and Ali, who are amazing and and who grew up on college campuses across America, And I am so thankful to them for doing that. And in our preinterview chat, we talked about interns that I had, like Dave, and colleagues I've had, like Jim Hoppe and Debichi at Puget Sound. I mean, just and, you know, the amazing students who've really become part of my family. And 2 of them were in Santa Fe 2 weekends ago to seizes Oprah Byrne, which is a huge thing we do in Santa Fe. 1 came from Boulder, and 1 came from Boston. And, I mean, it's just, You know, we work in student affairs, and you will never be lonely because you're able to make these wonderful connections with people who are so dear.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:54]: Houston, it's been just a joy to talk to you. So I know that, you know, we just met for the 1st time today, but I already feel like I know you a little bit, which is, such a lovely, warm feeling. And if others would like to connect with you after this show airs. How can they find you?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:33:07]: Sure. Well, probably the easiest way is on LinkedIn, w Houston Dougharty, and I also, today, I was at at big brothers, and they said that we're gonna Google you. What are we gonna find? So I I went home and Googled myself, and there are a lot of student affairs related things. So you could Google w authority. You'd see all kinds of interesting things, and I'd love to reach out or talk to anybody who'd like to be in touch.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:28]: Houston, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:33:31]: Thank you for the opportunity. It's been a real treat, and it's great to meet you.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:35]: This has been an episode of essay voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This though is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, eye or wherever you're listening now.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:09]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger casting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Liu Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton hosts Dr. Yisu Zhou, an accomplished university professor from the University of Macau. Dr. Zhou shares his unique journey from being an international student to becoming a professor and provides insights into the transitions in higher education, particularly in China and Asia. The episode begins by introducing Dr. Yisu Zhou's background and educational journey. He highlights his early experiences as an English teacher in rural China, which sparked his interest in education. He pursued his PhD in the United States, which ultimately led him to his current role as a professor at the University of Macau. Dr. Zhou emphasizes the impact of internationalization in higher education, discussing how the economic growth in China over the past two decades has created a demand for high-quality education. This demand has led to an increase in Chinese students pursuing undergraduate and graduate degrees abroad, especially in the United States. He also touches on the various stages of this trend, starting with Chinese students seeking doctoral programs overseas and later expanding to undergraduate programs. The podcast delves into the differences between teaching styles in the West and East, highlighting the smaller class sizes and active communication in Western universities compared to the more lecture-focused approach in many Eastern institutions. Dr. Zhou suggests that educators and student affairs professionals should understand these cultural differences and proactively support international students in adapting to the new learning environment. Dr. Zhou encourages student affairs professionals to be patient and understanding when working with students from different cultural backgrounds. He explains that while students from Asia may initially appear passive, they are actively processing information and sometimes take longer to initiate help-seeking behavior due to cultural differences. The podcast concludes with Dr. Zhou emphasizing that international students can be valuable assets to higher education programs, as they bring strong work ethics and a commitment to academic excellence. He also highlights the need for international students to develop skills for navigating diverse and complex educational systems, which can differ significantly from their home countries. This episode offers valuable insights for student affairs professionals and educators, providing a better understanding of the challenges and opportunities that come with the internationalization of higher education and the diverse cultural backgrounds of students. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices from the Field, where today I'm delighted to bring you a conversation with an accomplished university professor from the University of Macau. Isoo Cho is an associate professor at the faculty of education and by courtesy, the department of sociology at the University of Macau. He earned his PhD team from Michigan State University's College of Education. Joe's doctoral dissertation focused on the teaching profession, specifically out of field teachers and utilize a large scale survey from OECD. Before attending MSU, Joe received his bachelor's degree in statistics from East China Normal University and worked as an English teacher in rural Shanxi province from 2005 to 2006, where his passion for understanding the educational process bloomed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:06]: Joel employs a sociological perspective when examining various policy issues, including school finance, teacher professionalization, and higher education cation reform. His work has been published in Discourse, Sociological Methods and Research, Chinese Sociological Review, international journal of educational development, and other notable journals. Zhou has also been feasted on various Chinese media outlets, such as the paper Peng Pai Xing Wen, Beijing News, Xing Jing Bao, and China Newsweek, Zhongguo Xing Wen, Zhoukan. In the University of Macau community. Joe is deeply committed to teaching and service. He created the 1st generation course aimed at raising global awareness for undergraduate students across all majors and departments. And with an innovative approach to nurturing students from diverse backgrounds, this course is widely accepted by those students and running at full capacity every year. Professionally, he's actively engaged across the university and scholarly community, and he received the outstanding reviewer award from occasional researcher in 2015. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:04]: Joel's service work reflected his thinking of higher education as an ecology of knowledge experts. He's penned a 5 year strategic plan, advise on a library strategic plan, and architected a doctoral of education program. He is the recent recipient of the faculty service award for 2017, 18, and also so 21/22. Isu, we're so glad to have you on the show today. Yisu Zhou [00:02:25]: Thank you very much for having me, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: And even better for me that we're in the same time zone, that as a gift I don't get on the show a lot. Yes. Yes. You had lots of international people appearing on our show. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:35]: And you're at the University of Macau, how so folks know listeners who are not familiar with the geography of China. Macau is in the southern part of China. It's a beautifully warm place. It's also famous for casinos, amongst other things. Yisu Zhou [00:02:48]: Like Orento, Las Vegas, if you want a short metaphor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:52]: You can even go to, like, the MGM in The Venetian in Macau. Yisu Zhou [00:02:55]: It's actually the same. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:56]: But that is not the reason you're in Macau. No. So So we're glad to talk to you today about your experiences as a professor of higher education studies. And normally, I think our listeners are exposed to professors of higher ed who are pretty western centric. So this is a great opportunity to learn more about higher education and the study of higher cation in Asia. But before we talk about your expertise in the transformations and transitions of higher ed in China, I'd love to talk to you first about how you became a professor. Yisu Zhou [00:03:25]: Oh, yeah. No problem. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:27]: So what's the story? Yisu Zhou [00:03:29]: I think you can say part of that is is running through the family. So both my Parents are academe, working in the, academia, which give me some exposure to how institutions work in the Chinese setting when I was little. But I I didn't actually made up my mind before well, I think well into my PhD program. When I grow up, I wanna be a scientist. So I think in college, I study, statistics. So, kind of the applied field of, mathematics in a sense that I wanna things, and, I wanna run data. I'm really interested in data as a kid, when I grow up. But, after college, I also wanna get some exposure about Interacting with people. Yisu Zhou [00:04:07]: I'm kind of, you know, in that, gap sort of a mentality, that I'm interesting a lot of things, but I really I had a mid in my mind about what I'm going to commit my life to doing. So I spent a year actually teaching in a rural village in the Western China, which kind of a place they have a poverty line, which give me a lot of experience working with, rural children, rural parents. And I taught English at 6th grade, in that particular school, for the year. So I really start to think about how I can observe social life, Particularly school life. That is, I I think the main motivation and the main sort of event that, direct me toward a study of education. So after that year, I went to the United States. I, went to Michigan State to do my PhD degree. I first Enrolled in, psychometric program because of my statistics background, and people really want me to contribute to that. Yisu Zhou [00:05:03]: And after 2 years, I found that my passion and my interest has, sort of shifted toward international and competitive education. So I'm trained as an international comparative, educator in my PhD program. And, well, Macau sort of come as a supply because I am the part of the, post, What we call, 2008 survivors of the, economic meltdown so that many, US universities, freeze hiring during the time. It's been actually, they fed. It's quite, last quite, for some time. So when I was in the job market in 2011, The the domestic job market is basically so competitive that there are only very handful places openings in that particular year. So when I was searching the catalog job postings on Chronicle, this place called University Macau sort of, appeared in my search. I actually have never heard of this university before, And this is really a new experience. Yisu Zhou [00:05:59]: I know places in Hong Kong because they are more established. They have university of Hong Kong and Chinese university of Hong Kong are the 2 sort of the star universities in a region, and people already know that. But never heard of University of Macau. So I did a little bit of research. I think, well, maybe I should try that mostly because it's close to home And it's an international environment which allows me to conduct international research and to teach in English and, had the opportunity to with a lot of, international colleagues. And, well, when I I didn't expect a lot, you know, when I submit my application, but think, like, 2, 3 weeks later, I got a call from my former dean, and he says, he just moved from, University of Virginia, actually, to Macau. And he's really looking for people who have received a very rigorous American style academic training to work with him. So, you know, we had a nice conversation. Yisu Zhou [00:06:48]: And he invited me over for a job talk. And, well, the rest is history. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:53]: And you have since become quite an accomplished publisher share amongst many other things. I would encourage all of you to go look up Zhou Isu on, Google Scholar. You can see he's just got quite picture related to education in the Chinese region. But thinking about what you're studying now, what's your focus now in your work? Yisu Zhou [00:07:12]: So because I'm getting older and my also my role with inside institutions sort of transitioned toward more of the administrative side, I've been involving a lot of, program administration, my faculty administration, and, of course, some university side of business, which I think it give me a kinda unique Sort of an insider perspective in terms to understand how institution work. So my interest gradually shifts toward this institutional perspective about university, I think higher, education because my current working situation and the network I've been building because of my professional lives. So I think recent years, my interest gradually shift toward, understanding, higher education development in China, in Particular internationalization of higher education in China. I think that's one thing currently I'm doing some research at the moment. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:00]: The institution I'm working for currently is a great example of internationalization. Yisu Zhou [00:08:05]: Exactly. I really had a privilege and opportunity to visit DKU during the summer. And it's really impressed me and opened my mind. We have so much to learn from you guys, a top elite private institution and working in China And catering to a lot of Chinese student demand and, to really establish yourself as an em embracer of this movement of, internationalization of higher ed in China. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:29]: And the joint venture universities in China are varieties of years old. We have a neighbor, Shaqingqiao, Liverpool, which is much to older than us, but our closest most similar university, NYU Shanghai, is the same age as us, and that's a decade. So it's to a wide variety. There's also the University of Nottingham Ningbo down the road, which, again, also much older than us, Wenjoking, and then some that are younger than us like Tianjin Juilliard. So it's all over the map. Yisu Zhou [00:08:54]: Yeah. It is. It's it's all over the map. And I think from a policy perspective, China really sort of embraced In, multifaceted, you can say, strategies in terms of working with international partners. We have American University, European University, Right. Coming to China, setting up joint ventures. There are also several, Hong Kong institutions. They have different levels of cooperation in China. Yisu Zhou [00:09:16]: Right. They have joint ventures. They have sites like campus. But most of them actually have a research institution set up in China. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:22]: So let's go back and think about the transition of the movement to begin opening doors for internationalization of education in this part of the world. What can you tell us about that history? Yisu Zhou [00:09:34]: I think from our perspective, there is a demand and the, sort of, the need for a high Quality, higher education really came, dates back to early 2000 when, economically, China took off, Which cultivated a very strong local base of parents who have done business with, western, partners, Or they have traveled the world. They have seen places elsewhere, and because of free flow of information allows them to understand and to see how Western education sort of, opens up a different kind of possibility for their child. So I think this is so, you know, if if if you count that, it's been about 20 years up to this point. And I think we can divide it into, like, several stages because at first, it's most about sending your kids overseas. And that trend first started with the PhD programs because most parents just cannot afford, Right. A 4 year, college life for their kids in the United States. And the PhD and some master program, they do offer very generous, scholarships For those academically talented Chinese students, so you know? But the the numbers are usually not very large, right, because their Resources is all are always limited. And then starting, I think, a decade into the 1st decade of 21st century, really sees that Chinese parents, they, they become richer, and the opportunities really open up. Yisu Zhou [00:11:05]: Because if we count the kind of international program that is available to Chinese student, Australia and the UK are the 1st large market that sort of opens fully embrace, you know, to the, Chinese student, and they embrace them very Politically in the US because the selectivity and different tiers and such large and diverse system also is very attractive gradually to Chinese student. And because I I think one big attraction about the US higher education is this economy. It's so robust and it's so diverse, which means the student can always think about, right, what I can do after graduation. That, you know, if you go to some smaller places, 2, 3 years later, you need to find a job. Right? And that might not be enough those kind of high quality jobs around. So I think the the 2010 really sees kind of a a higher peak for Chinese student, undergraduate student going overseas. And, of course, this trend also spill over to other segments. So we also, you know, if you read the news, there are Private high schools, in US or even public schools, they cater to international student. Yisu Zhou [00:12:13]: Chinese student, of course, because of the large number, A Korean student, a Japanese student, a student from Middle East, you know, these places where they see a large economic booms and a student wants to have an different opportunities. So I think that sort of these trends sort of coalesced together, making the 2nd decade of 21st century really, really is about international students going into US and going into other western market sort of in large numbers. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:40]: So with that transition of of this trend of students going abroad, when they come back with those skills, How has that impacted always of life, always of being with that education and skill set coming back? Yisu Zhou [00:12:54]: I think from my own traction with students and my observations with private business owners or, just talking to graduates coming, you know, Having obtained a western education degree, I think this is really a process of different cultures kind of, mingling together And creating a kind of a hybrid person that they many Chinese students still have a very strong Chinese identity, you know, growing up And coming back to home, but their years, in America, in Australia, or in other places sort of open up their horizon in a sense that they understand, Things such as diversity, things such as, critical thinking. These things are not did not play such an important role in a domestic higher education. So, You know, when we compare them and with their friends who didn't choose to go to abroad. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:45]: And we have some incredible universities around this region as well places like Tsinghua, Peking, Pudong, etcetera. What do you see as the biggest difference between the different styles of teaching in the undergraduate frame. Yisu Zhou [00:13:58]: 1st, I I think the institutional setting is really different. Right? So the one thing with DKU and, and, for instance, NYU really struck me is the how small the class size are. The class size are really small, which means individual instructor can give a sort of a tailored Or individualized time to a student to catering to a wide range of needs. Right? Questions you can ask a question immediately. All Almost always. Right? And you can get instant feedback on these kind of things. But I think in China, kind of a broader if you wanna situate this question in border eastern Asian context, A kind of lecture style larger classroom is the standard format of teaching and learning. And in that kind of format, Students' own diligence and their own hardworking is kind of required by default. Yisu Zhou [00:14:46]: So no matter what kind of questions you Have you need to think about the solution your by yourself first. This is the, like, your first option. And then if you can solve it, maybe you can try to look for help from the instructor. Right. So the teacher's role really different because of such large classrooms and because I think mainly towards in century old kind of educational philosophy about how people should learn. But I think the, institutions such as DKU and, like I said, NYU, they offer us a different kind of possibility of how teachers can interact with student and how teacher a student can learn. And based on my Oh, understanding. Student really love that. Yisu Zhou [00:15:23]: And, that sort of enriched their experience and helped them to overcome a lot of, difficulties, I didn't go study. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:30]: You've also been an international student yourself, and I'm wondering if you have any advice for our student affairs professionals who are listening on how best to support tuning into US education or US study or even just living in a new country. Yisu Zhou [00:15:44]: I think study abroad is really a very important lesson of my life. I have a lot of struggles, but I think overall, it is a very positive experience. I think for, student affairs, colleagues working in the US, you need to understand that student from the east and China and other parts of the, Asia, they're coming from quite different cultural background, Which means the student are accustomed to the kind of expectations in their home country or home culture. Most of these places sort of a Student are expected to follow an authority to not to sort of challenge the authority and not to break or to question the the rules the rules of the classroom, the rules of the institution, or even interhuman kind of, rules. So they might seem like these student are a little bit passive. I think the student, taking myself as an animal, we're always actively thinking about the situation, trying to decode a situation. It's just that our experience situate us through a certain kind of conditions that we Convinced essentially our mind convinced us, oh, you shouldn't ask this question at this particular time. You should find another, point. Yisu Zhou [00:16:52]: But I think in the US, it's always the communication part is always real time. Right? You can always throw a question. You can always seek any clarification. You can always seek help. This is not something embarrassing. This is actually supported. And, many institutions actually have developed and have very capable professionals to try to help student to do that. But I think the first step is I mean, the the expectation is the student need to make the first move. Yisu Zhou [00:17:19]: Right. They need to go out to reach out to seek clarifications, but that first move sometimes can happen quite late. Not the first day of the orientation may be not even the 1st day of the class. Might you know, it happened 2 or 3 weeks after class sort of started After some, after the student is confident enough that they convince themselves they have interpreted the situation correctly, and then they they trying to go out to say, Hey. I can't I don't really understand this. Can you really help me? So I think a lot of hand holding and to opening up yourself to the international student is really something very important. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:53]: I really appreciate that advice because the perspective taking of what I might expect from an authority figure in my home country is truly very different in the US compared to a lot of cultures in this part of the world, which means that help seeking behavior here that we're always trying to draw out of our students. We might need to go an extra step or 3 in order to explain why that's appropriate and why that is culturally spected. Yisu Zhou [00:18:17]: My own experience tells me that in many cases, in the question and answer sessions, in orientation, in a big event When we sort of prepare a lot of materials, we tell the students, sometimes we don't receive sort of a warm kind of a response It which might happen actually in the US context. Right? The US student are most time, they are very active, and they won't hesitate to throw questions at you. But in this Part of the world, sometimes the student a little wants to sit back and they want to deliver their questions in different channels. So that's something I think for any student affairs officers or people who travel, to this part of the world to teach and to engage with student, I think they should realize That's kind of the cultural difference. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:00]: Are there any other thoughts you'd like to share on the transitions of higher education that you study in in China, in East Asia, or just any thoughts for our mostly western audience. Yisu Zhou [00:19:09]: I think the Chinese student and many, Asian student, they will be a big asset to the program. These are hard workers, and they sort of really cherish the kind of, academic excellence because they have been expected to perform at relatively high level since they're a kid. The kind of things I think they will learn, and definitely, I think that's that's something they should learn, is the communication skills, the kind of skills how to navigate themselves in a very complex system from the studies of a competitive education. This is one takeaway message that US education system is so different. A comprehensive high school system actually gave the student quite early on experience. I mean, It's not all positive, but it gives most student experience to navigate through a bunch of peers, which are heterogeneous. Right? And they have very diverse interest, And they formed little clicks, and then you need to find your best friend and find the resources and to find the teachers that you can work with. And most Asian students, they don't actually learn that until the university level because they have been segmented in a sort of uniformly set up format throughout a lower secondary an upper secondary school. Yisu Zhou [00:20:19]: So this is really a challenge for them. That is for them to develop the kind of skills to work in a diverse environment. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:27]: And that's not to say 1 is better or worse than the other, just the systems are entirely unique and different. Yisu Zhou [00:20:33]: Exactly. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:34]: And that means the students are coming with different skill sets. So you might have, you know, 1 student who's better at help seeking behavior, but the other who is just quite a lot better at absorbing information. And it just depends on the strength that we need in the moment. Yisu Zhou Definitely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Christopher Lewis [00:20:52]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, and I always love being able to share with you Some of the great things that are happening. The 2024 Dungey Leadership Institute DOI faculty application is currently live. The Dungey Leadership Institute is a signature initiative of the NASPA undergraduate fellows program with the following learning outcomes for fellows gaining Foundational knowledge of the history and functions of student affairs in higher education, gain knowledge of contemporary issues in higher education, Participate in intergroup dialogue around issues of equity and social justice, collaborate with peers to research and present ethical resolutions to current administrative and leadership issues in student affairs. Reflect on and articulate the influence of personal identities and histories on effective student affairs leadership and engage in professional networking with student affairs faculty and administrators. DLI directors, selected faculty members, and NASPA staff plan this 6 day leadership institute to develop leadership skills, enhance cultural competency, and prepare fellows for a career in student affairs. Specifically, faculty will colead a cluster of 8 to 10 students through the DLI experience And provide support to all students attending the institute. Christopher Lewis [00:22:16]: Travel, meals, and housing are provided by NASPA and our host institutions. Faculty within this program are all current NASPA members. Applicants need to have at least 5 full time years of professional experience post your masters at the time of application. NEUF alumni are also eligible to apply with at least 2 years of professional experience post masters. If you apply for this, you must be available June 20th through 26, 2024 for the actual institute. You can apply through Friday, November 13th, and go to the NASPA website to be able to submit your demographic information, your resume or CV application questions and reference information for consideration. NASBA is currently looking for committee members For the mid level administrators steering committee. In 2022, NASPA established the mid level administrators A steering committee to partner with NASPA staff to shape the ongoing development of NASPA's mid level initiatives. Christopher Lewis [00:23:17]: The steering committee works To ensure that mid level relevant programs are offered during regional and national events, NASPA's mid level administrator steering committee Strives to encourage excellence in the mid level positions through professional development, knowledge creation and sharing, networking opportunities, and recognition aimed at the roles of mid level administrators. The steering committee is comprised of 24 mid level administrators who serve at A wide variety of institutional types throughout NASPA's 7 regions. Steering committee members will serve staggered to your terms. If this sounds like something that you're interested in, I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to learn more about this. Typically, the time commitment is about 2 to 3 hours per month. I highly encourage you to consider this. Think about it as an opportunity to be able to give back to the association And help to steer NASPA toward providing quality professional development opportunities for mid level professionals. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. Christopher Lewis [00:24:23]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within One of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, All of us are stronger, and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:44]: Another wonderful NASPA world segment from you, producer Chris. Thank you again and again for giving us the updates on what's going on in and around NASPA. Alright. Isu, we have come to our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. You ready? Yisu Zhou [00:26:01]: Wow. I'm ready. Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:03]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Yisu Zhou [00:26:09]: It's gotta be Oasis. I've been a fan since 1994. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:13]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Yisu Zhou [00:26:17]: A scientist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:18]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Yisu Zhou [00:26:21]: I gotta be my PhD supervisor, Amita Sugar. Professor Sugar, if you're listening, you really made my world. You've taught me about professionalism with and care to the student, a true role model. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:33]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Yisu Zhou [00:26:36]: I think any educator will benefit and read from John Dewey. I've been rereading Dewey a lot for our research project. And for nonfiction, actually, this summer, I've been reading a lot of La La Gwynne. She's my favorite American author, and her fantasy series, Earthsea, really gives this kind of a feminist kind of a perspective about how to approach different people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:55]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Yisu Zhou [00:26:59]: The slow horses on Apple TV starring Gary Old man. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:03]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Yisu Zhou [00:27:07]: Okay. There are 2. So there is a Chinese podcast. It's called left You're right. It's a very good conversational kind of intellectual podcast. The English podcast I spend most of time I think it's from NPR. I'm a big fan of their all sounds considerate Podcast. I've been I've been following them for over a decade. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:23]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Yisu Zhou [00:27:27]: I wanna give a shout out to my student, my master and PhD student. No matter if if you are crunching numbers in your little cube or doing field interviews or working on Guys, I hope really hope that you've been enjoying the studies in these universities or anywhere in the world. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:43]: It's been a wonderful and donating conversation today. I know I learned a lot from you. I'm sure that others have as well. If anyone would like to contact you after the show, how can they find you? Yisu Zhou [00:27:52]: I think the easiest way is to To search my name, Yisu Zhou on Twitter. I have a Twitter handle. You can also send me an email by, yisuzhou@gmail.com. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:00]: Thank you so much, Isoo, for sharing your voice with us today. Yisu Zhou [00:28:03]: Really happy to be here. Thank you for hosting me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:07]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd Like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:47]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Assistance by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices From The Field! In today's episode, we have a special guest, Hyunmin Kim, who will be sharing their insights and experiences in the field of higher education and student affairs. In this episode of the "Student Affairs Voices From the Field" podcast, Dr. Jill Creighton interviews Hyunmin Kim, the assistant director of residential life for the Courtyards at the University of Maryland. Hyunmin shares his journey into student affairs and his recent transition into his current role. Hyunmin's journey into student affairs began with a personal connection to residential life, as he grew up in a family housing unit on a university campus. He found his passion for working with students while in college, leading him to pursue a master's degree in public administration with a focus on educational leadership. His career path eventually led him to become the assistant director at the Courtyards. During the discussion, Hyunmin reflects on his first 90 days in his new role, highlighting the challenges and learning experiences. He emphasizes the importance of taking time to reflect and recharge, especially in a field that can be emotionally demanding. Hyunmin also discusses his approach to supervising professional staff and the transition from supervising paraprofessionals. He values building close relationships with those he supervises and believes in a balance of professionalism and personal connection. Looking ahead, Hyunmin discusses his plans to focus on building a strong culture and traditions within the Courtyards community. He aims to engage upperclassmen residents and establish a legacy of involvement and participation. Additionally, he explores ways to use social media to connect with students and meet them where they are while maintaining the university's educational mission. In conclusion, Hyunmin encourages others in the field to smile, remember why they chose student affairs, and be innovative in their approach to engage and support students. He also stresses the importance of setting a positive and inclusive culture within residential communities. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA Voices, we're pleased to feature Hyunmin Kim, who is serving as the assistant director of residential life for the Courtyards at the University of Maryland. He was born in Seoul, South Korea, but was raised in Nashville, Tennessee. He has a master's in public administration from American University with a focus in educational leadership. At the courtyards you could always find him joking with residents and looking to find new and interesting ways to interact with residents. Hyun Min, welcome to the show. Hyunmin Kim [00:00:48]: Hello. Thanks for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]: And we're talking to you today from Maryland College Park. Hyunmin Kim [00:00:53]: Yes? Yes. That is correct. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:54]: Well, we're glad to get to know you today in our theme of transitions. And one of the things that we love to kick off our show with is asking someone how they got to their current seat. So what is your come up journey to being the assistant director at Maryland College Park? Hyunmin Kim [00:01:08]: Yeah. I love giving a good old origin story. I think it's a pretty common story amongst higher educators. I think when I started college, I had A little bit of, like, an idea about, like, something that I wanted to do. And then I got to college, and I realized that it just really wasn't for me, and I had no passion for it. So it was time for a bit of soul searching. Right? Because, obviously, it's just like I work my whole life for a specific goal and then just goes down the drain. So I kinda started to think back about kind of experiences that I had growing up that I really enjoyed. Hyunmin Kim [00:01:35]: So my parents immigrated from South Korea. My dad did his PhD in Nashville at Vanderbilt University, And we lived in a residential college then, like a family housing unit. And I remember as a kid just kind of being a part of that community growing up, just going to those events at the rec centered with my father, and it was I think it was a lot of fun for me as a kid. So then I got involved on our campus, you know, through hall council. It's very you know, the classic higher ed store. Hall council, RHA, the desk, and all that. Then kinda slowly, I just realized that I had a real passion for it, so I did my master's in public administration and leadership Development. And then did my grad work, and then I just ended up at the Courtyard at the University of Maryland, and I just kind of ended up as the assistant director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:12]: And how long have you been in that assistant director seat now? Hyunmin Kim [00:02:16]: Since May of this year, so not too long. Not too long. Very fresh, the position. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:19]: Absolutely. And before that, you were in the coordinator position at the same university. Yes? Hyunmin Kim [00:02:25]: Yes. I was a resident director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: So one of the things we're gonna be focusing on for you today is the 90 day story, the 90 day transition because you're basically just coming out of the other side of that 90 days, right about now. And interesting for your transition that it happened really in the summertime, which is a much more chill time to transition a position in our industry than it would be if you did it in, like, October or something. So tell us about the beginnings of the transition in terms of wanting to interview with your current colleagues for a position because I know that that can be a really nerve wracking space. Hyunmin Kim [00:02:57]: I think the first thing that I really thought about was when when they approached me, like, hey. Like, this This position's opening up. Would you be interested? It's a less formal interview process because we know you, but would you still be interested? And I think I really thought it's like, Am I qualified to be the assistant director? Right? Because I'm I think I'm on the younger side, for higher educators. I'm, like, coming into, like, Year 2 of it, so I was a resident director for a year, and then they approached me at this position. And I think that was the first thing that I thought was, like, am I ready? Can I actually do it, and what do I actually what does an assistant director actually do? And I talked to my boss who was the assistant director at the time, And she was like, you're ready. I mean, you you worked underneath me. You can do it. It's just a matter of getting there and just showing up for the job and following through and and learning as you go and Kind of understanding how the role plays a part into the community as you continue to work in the role. Hyunmin Kim [00:03:46]: So, you know, I go through the process. I think now that I've kind of been that 90 day, as you said, it's I feel like now I'm slowly getting comfortable as to what I'm supposed to do. The qualified part, I think every day, that's a struggle just, like, knowing if I'm doing the I think if this is actually making a good impact for my student staff or the students that I work with, I think it was overall a very interesting transition, and I think a lot of time for Self reflection on my part about my years as a director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:09]: So in that self reflection, how did you come to the determination that you were ready and you didn't wanna apply? Hyunmin Kim [00:04:14]: I think my life's Motto has always been, you gotta try it first. And if it doesn't work, then, like, you'll know, but, like, you gotta at least try. And I'm a very hands on guy. I've always been more of human, and I've just really enjoyed getting my hands deep with the students. So I think my mindset was is if I'm just in my head space constantly fighting demons, that I I really never will know, and then it'll go to someone else who may not know the community as well as I do, who may not know my students as well as I do, who may not know the needs as well as I do. And I think I came to kind of the conclusion that I do know what my students need and what my students staff especially need. So I was just like, alright. We're gonna run with it. Hyunmin Kim [00:04:48]: We're gonna do it. And, If it doesn't work, then we're gonna grow, we're gonna improve, but I won't know until I try. So I just kind of jumped in a little bit. I turned off my brain a little bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:57]: And you made that leap from 1st entry level professional into that mid level, like, as you said, pretty quickly. So what are the skills and abilities and knowledge areas that you needed or the KSAs in order to really start to think about the conceptualization of how your regular work and your mindset towards work need to change in that jump. Hyunmin Kim [00:05:16]: Yeah. I mean, I think as a resident director, you really are I mean, I've, you know, much love for all the resident directors. It's just you're really out there with the students. You're the 1st line of defense in the trenches, and I think sometimes it's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture as you're always just so, like, knee deep with students. And I think that year of Maybe with my RAs, it was just like I was just so knee deep with them. It was sometimes hard to see the bigger picture as to why sometimes my supervisors were making the decisions that were being made. I'm like, why why are we why we doing this, and I think going to my 1st NASP, interacting with, you know, the KC, but also just kind of, like, talking to other friend other colleagues and friends in the area. I had to kind of take a step back and kinda distance myself a little bit from my students who I enjoy so much just to kind of See the bigger picture. Hyunmin Kim [00:05:58]: Right? Because it's not just student staff that I work with or it's not just students that I work with. It it's the collective body of the courtyards, and and it was just trying I had to kind of just take a step back and be less hands on, be a little less turn off brainy, and actually turn on my brain a little bit more to see what the bigger picture was and to understand what it meant to To kind of make the harder decisions, the harder calls, and I guess transitioning my mindset to be a little bit more broader focused rather than so narrowly focused on Just like one specific sect, I guess, of higher ed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:26]: And when you think about working with the students, which I think is why almost all of us got into higher education is we're really passionate about working with developing adults. How has that changed your relationship with the students in your community given now that you're not in the day to day and you're in that mid level leadership space? Hyunmin Kim [00:06:42]: Honestly, I think especially right now because it it has been my and now, like, the school year started, I'm not doing as much up front interaction with the residents. It's a little lonely. Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like, middle management is great, but also I think there's a little bit of loneliness at the top. I see them a lot less, and I can't interact with them as much. So I find myself talking to them more, which I don't know if they want that from me, but, like, I get a lot more Excited now. So I find myself actually just going up to them a lot more, asking my RD, like, what's the deal with this resident? What's the deal with this RA? Like, I think I try to Stay in the notes, stay in the loop more. I I find myself spending more time at programs. Hyunmin Kim [00:07:18]: Like, I'll just kinda show up and just kinda sit there and be like, alright, guys. Just do your stuff. Like, I'm just gonna be here. I just wanna See what's going on. I just wanna know what's happening. So I think I've had to become a lot more intentional with how I interact with students because it really is kinda why we all do it. When you are middle management, you see it a lot less, And it's a lot more paperwork and which is so much fun. But leaving that office is like, let's talk to people. But yeah. So just being a lot more intentional in my interactions with them and Approaching them a lot more and making them talk to me a lot more.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:45]: So that 90 day space is a really critical upstart time for anyone in a new position. And even if you've been at the same institution, there's a lot to learn. So can you tell us about how you approached that 1st day of entering into that new space, you know, mentally coming onto campus and knowing, okay. Today, I'm the assistant director. And then how did you strategize for yourself looking ahead in those first Hyunmin Kim [00:08:05]: 90? When I transitioned, all of us were transitioning into new spaces as well. So my supervisor, who is still my supervisor, she's now the associate director, like, of the courtyards and the commons, and And we were looking for a new resident director. So within that 90 days, it was just a lot of hat juggling for me. It's like, are you still kind of the resident director? You're still kind of the assistant. My boss is busy. Like, I don't know where she is. Like, I'm just juggling hats here. And I think it was really just I have to hold down the fort 1st, cover all our bases, and then I can kind of process what it means to be an assistant director. Hyunmin Kim [00:08:39]: So I think for the 1st 45 days, it was just me, like, Cutting out fires, just making sure that, like, everything was, like, fine and ready, you know, for the move in process to start, like, late July, like, early August, just all of that. Like, make sure that all of that's ready. Making sure that my resident director is prepped and ready to go, thinking about what type of supervisor that I wanna be. So the 1st 45 days is just like, Like, the sky is literally falling. And then I think after those 45 days, after we got an a new resident director, I started to kinda have that mentorship responsibility. And I think It really hit me that day. It wasn't even the 1st day. I don't even think it was, you know, like, the 1st 45 days. Hyunmin Kim [00:09:14]: It was, like, the 1st, like, 60 days. My resident director just kinda sits out of my office. She kinda plops out. She just goes, How do you have all the answers, dude? I'm like, that was literally me last year. Right? Like, I was like, I got nothing for you. If you told me, hey, Hamdan, what's this policy? I'd be like, ask Olivia, who's my boss? And she just goes, how do you know everything? And I think During that conversation where she kinda felt like, I feel a little out of place because I feel like I don't know enough. And, you know, we were kinda able to have that Talk about, like, new employee kind of, like, loneliness, new employee, like, imposter syndrome that you feel when you're a new employee. I think helping her talk through that was kind of that, like, oh, I am someone's supervisor now. Hyunmin Kim [00:09:53]: And the kind of the pressure and the responsibility that comes with it, I think that it was that around that conversation when that hit. And that and that's kinda when, like, my mindset became less resident director and more assistant director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]: Are you supervising professional staff now as well?   Hyunmin Kim [00:10:06]: Yeah. I have 1 resident director that I with us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:08]: Okay. So you've gone from supervising all paraprofessionals to supervising 1 full time professional. Tell us about that transition and how you've adjusted your supervisory style and maybe any reading or research that you've done on how you can be a good supervisor for that person. Hyunmin Kim [00:10:21]: I think I prefer professional Staff member a little bit more because I think with RAs, we're friendly. We have fun, but we there's, like, a line that you can't cross. And I still have to be, like, conscious of them. I I mean, we're all developing, but they're, like, in that extremely, like, developmental stage of their lives. So I Think any and all criticism and, like, feedback that I give to them, I like to just kinda be a little bit more mindful with it. And I think with a professional staff member because it is their full time job, we kinda talked. I was like, hey. Like, so So what do you need from me as your supervisor? And after I kinda learned that and I knew her previously because she was my RA, actually. Hyunmin Kim [00:10:55]: She She transitioned from that. We all just kind of did a little bit of a small leap over. So carrying that relationship over, having that preexisting between professional and paraprofessional to professional and professional. There was a lot for me to learn. So I think I obviously I talked to some of my bosses. Right? I talked to some of my other colleagues. Started doing a little bit of reading, like, as to because since I did do my master's in, like, management, like, leadership, stuff like that, I went back to my readings, went back to some of the essays that I wrote just Like, what was I thinking in grad school? Like, do I still think that way? Right? Because I I think it hasn't been too long, but I think just working with students, I think your thought process is subject Change a lot. And then I watched The Office. Hyunmin Kim [00:11:33]: I'm not going to lie. I just kinda sat down. I just kinda watched The Office, which is it's always a show, but it's the show that American workers voted, like, was the most relatable to them because it just kinda felt like The Office. So I just Sat down, and I just kinda started watching Michael Scott, Jim Halpert. Just though those people just going through their day to day, supervising each other, and Kind of like how interesting, like because I'm a big pop culture guy, so just kinda synthesize that pop culture element with that academic element to try to Synthesized that, and then I talked to my supervisee about it, and then we just kinda worked out that relationship that way. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:05]: I think that's really fascinating that you use the office as kind of a Control case study on the work in higher ed. Because I think that, you know, the the core of Michael Scott as a character is that he's a horrible supervisor for most of his work, but he also deeply cares about his employees. He knows all the names of Angela's cats and things like that. Like, when Sprinkles dies, he doesn't even have to ask which cat. He just knows It's sprinkles. And so I think those things are are fascinating to learn. Like, oh, you can care deeply as a manager and still be a terrible manager, or you can be fairly decent as a manager, but your employees might not like to you. And there's probably a balance in there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:36]: I like Radical Candor personally, where it's been challenged directly and care personally. Those things I I think are critical, but we're all learning how to operationalize them even if we believe them in philosophy. Hyunmin Kim [00:12:46]: I would say I'm doing alright, but, you know, I'll have to ask her tomorrow. It's like, can I have a do it? But it was fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:51]: So reflecting on that 1st 90 days now that you're you're through, is there anything that you wish you would have done a little differently to set yourself up for success? Hyunmin Kim [00:12:58]: I think I should have taken some more time to breathe in the 1st 90 days. I don't remember my 1st 90 days, if I'm gonna be completely honest. I blacked out For those 90 days. So if you told me what happened from May till, like, now, I'd be like, I couldn't tell you. There's isolated incidents, but I think I should have taken some more time to breathe. I'm a pretty reflective person normally, but I don't think I took as much time for myself to reflect During those 90 days, I think during that 1st week and stuff like that. I mean, obviously, I think thinking too much wouldn't have been great, but I think I just kind of, like, sped run it and just kinda push through it. So I think I just kinda overwhelmed myself to the point where, like, I think there was, like, a couple weekends back where I just had to, like, turn off, Every single device, like, every phone, I was like, hey. Hyunmin Kim [00:13:41]: I can't be on duty. Someone else can be on call. It's not me today. I just slept for, like, 18 hours, and And I was just like, I can't do this today. And I just ordered it and just, like, had a a me day, but I think that was long overdue because I think I should've Taking more time to take care of myself throughout that 1st 90 days. So Did you take a break at all between the RHD role and the assistant director role? Hyunmin Kim [00:14:02]: I had, like, a week and half home, which I think comes with other responsibilities. So when I'm home now, it's gotta help. I'm the eldest son of an immigrant family. Obviously, my parents, I'm very grateful. I think I have a less classic immigrant story than some of my other colleagues because my father is an English professor. So he's very fluent in English. I've never had to translate for that man. Like, that man speaks better English than most Americans do. Hyunmin Kim [00:14:24]: But it's just other responsibilities just being home, part of that community. So home is home, but it's not fully relaxing because you still gotta help your parents, your siblings while you're there, you know, the members of your community while you're there. So it went from, like, Helping 1 community to the next community. So by the time I got back, I was just, like, exhausted. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:42]: So resting is a great tip. And then looking at your journey in the last 90 days of what's been really amazing or what's gone really well for you, what's something that you would definitely repeat when you make your next 90 day jump? Hyunmin Kim [00:14:52]: This was by accident because we were like, our offices were under construction, but I had to share an office with my RD for, like, a month. So we had, like, a fun little buddy cop set up where, like, both of our desks We're, like, pushed together so, like, we'd face each other at work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:06]: So you'd wait in gym? Hyunmin Kim [00:15:07]: Quite literally. I mean, we actually kinda have that dynamic as we play jokes on each together. It's very fun, but I don't know how feasible I would be in the next 90 day job because that would be a little bit of a higher position. But I really would wanna spend A lot more close time with the people that I supervise more so because those 30 days of me getting to know my RD a lot more Closer than when I knew her as an RA. It was just so much fun. It was in a very real time because she's my boss, like, question. And can we talk about this? Let's figure this out. We, like, interviewed our race together, like, in that office. Hyunmin Kim [00:15:38]: So it was a good time to kinda, like, very personally get to know her so I could have that professional, but also Have that, like, heart behind it. So now I can be like, alright. You better turn the center again. I'm gonna fire you, like, tomorrow. And she's like, yeah. If you would. And then we just, like, banter back and forth. We have, like, a very, like, Quippy and quirky dynamic, but I think that 30 days of sharing the office, I think, for me was extremely meaningful. Hyunmin Kim [00:15:58]: I don't know if she liked it, but I'd so if I could do that again, I'd wanna spend more time with the people that I supervise and a lot closer. Even if that meant I don't get to use my Nice office for a little bit. I just wanna spend as much time as I could with my supervisees before we hit the ball running again. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:13]: So you've shared a lot of wisdom related to your own transition. Is there anything else that you wanna share regarding the last 90 days? Hyunmin Kim [00:16:20]: I would just say, like, smile. Like, just smile and just kinda remember why you started higher ed. And I think that was a big thing for me. Because this job, I feel like the field can get tiring. Student affairs is is inherently a tiring role because it's a people role. Our job is people. Our job is emotion, and our job is care. And we're all humans, and I think we all have that breaking point of when we give too much of us and there's not enough of us left. Hyunmin Kim [00:16:44]: And I think just smiling, remembering back why you started, going back Pure roots. Even for me, and I haven't been in a position very long. Sometimes I forget why I started. It sometimes just feels like a job, and it is. But at the end of the day, it was a passion project that I started that's been with me since I was a kid, and I think I just remember back to that level of joy that I had as a kid just growing up in a residential facility, but then as a college student, just all the fun times with the residents. Just What other position can you just yell on the quad at strangers? And that's fine. And it it's higher ed. Right? It's just such a fun, quirky, just Charismatic field where there really aren't as many borders as you'd like to think, but it's the fields continuously growing. Hyunmin Kim [00:17:22]: So I would just say smile, remember why you did it, and just remember to, I guess just be really innovative in what you do. Just because there's a set precedent about what higher it's supposed to be doesn't mean that that's the precedent we're supposed to always follow. And I think being a little unorthodox with it, there's nothing wrong with that. So if you're listening, smile, remember back, and be a little chaotic. A little bit of chaotic. It never did anyone wrong, I think, as long as metered, obviously, but that would be my words of advice for anyone who wants to start or who's in that transitionary period. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:50]: And I'm hearing that as kinda smile for yourself, not like smile because other people are asking you to smile. Just to clarify. Absolutely. That's what I'm hearing. Thank you so much for the wisdom in this area. So let's look ahead for a second. You finished your 1st 90 days, like, moments ago. What are you looking at in the future 90 days? Hyunmin Kim [00:18:09]: Culture building is my next thing. So I'm a big believer in tradition and culture and fun rituals. So this idea got shut down, but I wanted to start, like, a ResLife Twitter account so we could, like, tweet other, Or I guess it's x now. But so we could start, like, talking to other resident halls so we could just casually hit up North Campus, be like, hey. Soccer 1 v one. Just kinda have that fun little banter between residence halls. They said we couldn't because, you know, like, it it'd be a problem. They're like, that's too professional. Hyunmin Kim [00:18:34]: I'm like, alright. My bad. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:36]: Wendy's do it. Hyunmin Kim [00:18:37]: Right. That's what I'm saying. Imagine you wake up one day and 1 dorm's calling and another dorm's stinking, and it's like, oh, this is funny. Like and then you kinda see, like, what knowledge each storm has. And, you know, I think that would raise resident engagement and interest because you don't see that very often, but they wouldn't me. So it's okay. I'll figure it out another way to do it. But, no, I think tradition and culture establishing what it is to be, like, at courtyards, I think for me is is really important because COVID stopped a lot of that. Hyunmin Kim [00:19:02]: A lot of those older traditions and and, like, I think we had some good traditions, but I think as we need to, we need to evolve, we need to grow, and we need to Be hip with the times as as one might say. Woah. Woah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hyunmin Kim [00:19:17]: I know. My students are gonna kill me for that one. But, yeah, establishing tradition and and real culture, like a courtyards culture is, I think, what I'm looking to do now. So I guess right now is just assessing the needs of our students, and I don't mean the needs educationally. They got enough education going for them. I am not trying to, like, school them anymore, but How can I educate them in other ways, socially, right, culturally, just athletically? And our students just love sports. UMD is a great school in regards to Sports. We have great intramurals. Hyunmin Kim [00:19:45]: So I think something that we're trying to establish is a ResLife Soccer League or football for other people in the world, but, like, kind of just Setting a precedent for what it means to live at the courtyard because we do have primarily upperclassmen, and we have been known to be called the retirement community and which is fine. Our on call structure is great because they don't cause us as much problems, but it's that stigma. Upperclassmen don't care about ResLife. They don't wanna do anything. And I think How to embrace that apathy and make them care, but not care enough, but care enough to where they wanna do it. So establishing that culture of upperclassmen, I think, is What we're really looking to do, setting up legacy too. So our student recruitment process is gonna start very soon, so finding younger RAs and, like, obviously, I wouldn't discriminate based on age, but I think I have a little bit of a goal of trying to get a bit younger faces, so maybe sophomores, maybe juniors, where they can do 1, 2 years, not just 1 year and they're out, but, like, one, years 3 years even so that we can kind of set that legacy, set that tradition, set that precedent so we can kinda just keep building back. And we'll keep building now that that lockdown period has been over, but setting culture, setting legacy, setting a precedent as what it's like to live at Courtyards. Hyunmin Kim [00:20:50]: This is my next 90 day journey. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:51]: You also mentioned something really important with the social media aspects, whether it be on a specific platform or not, which is just kind of trying to meet our students where they're at, which which has been a mission of student affairs professionals since the inception of the field. But I think what that means now for Gen zers is kind of embracing that Gen z humor that we see that some of us understand very well and some of us don't understand at all, but that Gen z humor is also relatable. And then balancing that line of we are still your university that's here to develop your student journey. And we know this research from millennials, but millennials hated it when their university was on Instagram and Facebook. And so it's also important to recognize that maybe that's how Gen z is engaging, but that's not how they wanna hear from us. So it it's kind of this fine balance of how we find it. Hyunmin Kim [00:21:36]: No. I think that's a really good point. It's like, how do we approach them? Because Gen Z is a little dark. They're a lot darker than, I think millennials, then they're very grind mindset heavy, but also, like, very, like, dark humor. So, obviously, it doesn't land well professionally Most of the time because you really can't say it in a professional setting. But I think finding that nuance of how to approach Gen z on social media has been An ongoing struggle with me because for us to really meet Gen z where they are, we do have to forego a lot of our preexisting notions of what it means to be a university account on social media. And fair enough, I think we're just scared of what the backlash is gonna be if we do start to adapt a little bit. Are we trying to be too hip? Like, Are we forcing it, or are we just unhinged, and are we offending people? And I think rightfully so, they stopped my idea, but I think it's our job also to try to figure out how we should modernize And meet them where they are or at least try to meet them where they are. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:27]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Christopher Lewis [00:22:34]: Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on in NASPA. One of the things that I wanted to share today was a statement that NASPA put out just recently, the DACA ruling from the Southern District of Texas. If you didn't see that in your email, I am going to read it to you today to make sure that you are aware of NASPA's stance. A second ruling was issued in the middle of September by judge Andrew Hanon of the Southern District of Texas On the revised deferred action for childhood arrivals or DACA that sets up a likely return of DACA to the Supreme Court. Judge Hannon's decision reiterating his initial position that the program is unconstitutional signals a continued legal battle And holds in place a block on new recipients from applying, limiting the program's protections to current Recipients only. The Department of Homeland Security issued a final rule on DACA that should have gone into full effect on October 31, 2022. However, while an injunction from the US District Court for the Southern District of Texas remains in effect, DHS is prohibited from Granting initial DACA requests and related employment authorizations under the final rule. Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]: The political gamesmanship involved and the ongoing legal And legislative attacks on the DACA program continues the ambiguity experienced by an estimated 400,000 undocumented immigrants in higher education. NASPA supports the possibilities created by the DACA program, which provides educational and career pathways for immigrant students, faculty, and staff and creates a more robust and inclusive higher education community. We wish to amplify advocacy efforts by experts and organizations such as the President's Alliance on Higher Education and Immigration and the American Immigration Council Who are supporting students and advocating for permanent comprehensive legislative solutions. Reform is possible, full. Demonstrated by the introduction in this congress of the Bipartisan Dignity Act and the American Dream and Promise Act. Consult NASPA's position for immigration policy and higher education on the NASPA website for resources on advocating For a permanent solution with your lawmakers on the hill. We also encourage our members to download your state data 1 pager And the higher education immigration portal to develop evidence based talking points. You can go to the higher education immigration portal by going to to the following web address, higher ed immigration portal, all one word, .org. Christopher Lewis [00:25:25]: There's lots of deadlines coming up For the NASPA annual conference in Seattle, which is coming up over the next few months, and you wanna make sure that you're watching your email for those dates. One of the dates to keep in mind is November 3rd. That is the date that you do have to put in any request for non NASPA sponsored events, including events that might be from your own institution or from other organizations that you're a part of. So if you are planning to have a meeting or reception that you haven't put in yet, make sure to put that in soon. Also, watch in early October for the housing information for the conference. You know that those tend to fill up quickly, So you wanna make sure that you get your housing request in as soon as possible. And if you haven't registered yet, now is a great time. It's gonna be a great conference with tons of programs and a great way to reconnect and come back together To celebrate everything that is NASPA and everything that is higher education in student affairs. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So We are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able To get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:58]: Producer Chris, thank you so much for your wisdom always in the NASPA world segment. We really appreciate you continuing to keep us updated on what's happening in and around NASPA. And, Hinnam, we've reached to our lightning round. So I've got 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Here we go. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, What would your entrance music be? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:20]: Requiem by Mozart. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:21]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:25]: A paleontologist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:27]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:29]: It'd be Hady Fultz at Kennesaw State University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:33]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Hyunmin Kim [00:28:36]: Rainbow Fish, I don't know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:38]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Hyunmin Kim [00:28:41]: How I Met Your Mother. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last fear. Hyunmin Kim [00:28:46]: The Daebak Show podcast with Eric Nam. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:48]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:52]: The listeners. Hi. Thank you for listening. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:54]: Alright, Hyunmin. You've made it to the end of our show. You've done an amazing job telling your 90 day transition story. Thank you so much. If listeners would like to reach you after the episode comes out, how can they find you? Hyunmin Kim [00:29:05]: My messages on LinkedIn are always open. I'm always open to connect with people. You guys can just type in Hyunmin Kim at the Courthouse University of Maryland. I should pop up. There's a picture of me smiling awkwardly because that's what I do. Or you can email me at h kim atcocm.com, and I'll get back to you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:21]: Hyunmin, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Hyunmin Kim [00:29:24]: Thank you for having me. I had so much fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:27]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible well because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at thesis@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:08]: This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by diversity and the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In the ninth episode of season 2, Dr. U. Grant Baldwin, DBH, and co-host Dr. Larry Ford, DBH, explore the importance of behavioral health training for psychiatric nurses, the significance of integrated behavioral health in primary care and how psychiatric nurse practitioners obtaining a Doctorate of Behavioral Health can strengthen those efforts. Panelists include: Jennifer Wims-Madden, MSN, PMHNP-BC. DBH Student at Cummings Graduate Institute for Behavioral Health Studies, is an Adult Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner who obtained her Board Certification through the American Nurses Credentialing Center (ANCC) in 2013 after completing her Master of Science in Nursing (MSN) from Wayne State University. She began her mental health nursing career in 2007 after obtaining her Associate in Applied Science Degree in Nursing from Oakland Community College (OCC). She then went on to complete her Bachelor of Science in Nursing Degree at University of Michigan- Flint in 2009 before completing her MSN in 2012. Jennifer has experience treating patients with various psychiatric disorders across the lifespan and across practice settings, from inpatient hospitals to outpatient clinics, including community mental health facilities and integrated health programs in primary care practices. She enjoys her role as an educator, serving as mental health nursing faculty at OCC for several years, providing hundreds of students with rewarding mental health clinical experiences, and she continues to precept PMHNP and MD students regularly. Jennifer strives to provide a holistic, individualized, personalized, and comprehensive experience for every patient she cares for. Selena Schmidt, MSN, MJ, PMHNP-BC, HNB-BC. DBH Student at Cummings Graduate Institute for Behavioral Health Studies, is the VP of Behavioral Health Service Line for Ascension Michigan and has been appointed to the Governance Board for the Behavioral Health service line at Ascension's national level. Selena's responsibilities include overseeing the mental health and substance use disorder services for the state of Michigan, consisting of acute care hospitals, outpatient clinics, Telehealth, school-based clinics, substance abuse hospital and residential. In addition, she has over 17 years of working with the mentally ill and physically challenged at all levels of care. Selena volunteers and advocates for the mentally ill and physically challenged at the local, state and national level. Currently she is a board member for Macomb Community Mental Health, One Voice Suicide Prevention, Southwest Counseling and Disability Rights of Michigan formally Michigan Protection and Advocacy. She recently was appointed to the Michigan Hospital Association (MHA) as Chair of MHA Behavioral Health Council. She is assigned to the Michigan Integration of Care Council, Michigan Medical Clearance Council, 988 Crisis Line, and the Governors Suicide Prevention Council. She has become very involve in Suicide Prevention partnering with Kevin's Song, Know Resolve and One Voice. She is the recipient of a $5 million dollar Tri-State Zero Suicide grant, $35 million-dollar Behavioral Health Capacity Expansion grant and a $7 million dollar grant for Subsidized Housing for the chronically homeless in Detroit from the State of Michigan. Selena is a board certified Holistic Nurse and Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner. She currently holds a Bachelor of Nursing degree from Oakland University, Master of Nursing degree from Wayne State University, Master of Law in Health Care Law and Policy from Loyola University and is currently work towards a Doctor of Behavioral Health (DBH) from Cummings Graduate Institute for Behavioral Health Studies. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/disruptors-at-work/support

We are always looking for better ways to reach our students, right? This podcast episode of The NAGAP Report is about the benefits of podcasting in graduate enrollment. Join co-host Dr. Aaron Berger and Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, and Zach Busekrus, founder of Enrollify, for a conversation about the benefits of starting a podcast and some tips on how to launch something that will be successful for you. This episode was edited and produced by Dr. Aaron Berger.ResourcesPodcasting 101 - Dr. Chris Lewis - NAGAP GEM Summit 2023

Host Polly Swingle is joined by Dr. Meghan Malley, PT, DPT, Julianna Filice-Hanna, M.S., CCC-SLP, Alysha DeMay MS, OTRL, and Dr. Olivia Risko, PT, DPT, to talk about the L.I.F.E Program (Learning Independent Function Everyday) for functional movement disorders, the latest research on this condition, and the effective multidisciplinary approach to helping those with FMD regain independence.Dr. Meghan Malley, PT, DPT is the Program Director and Physical Therapist at The Recovery Project. She has specialized in the treatment of neurological diseases and disorders since 2008. She is also a Certified Oncology Rehabilitation Therapist with advanced training in physical therapy management for individuals diagnosed with cancer. Meghan also specializes in the management of Parkinson's disease, including receiving certifications in LSVT BIG, PWR! and Rock Steady Boxing. She has been integral in the development of various medical and wellness programs at The Recovery Project. Meghan is a guest lecturer in the physical therapy program at Wayne State University and frequent presenter on topics involving physical therapy management of neurological diseases and disorders.Julianna Filice-Hanna, M.S., CCC-SLP is a licensed Speech Language Pathologist with over 20 years of experience working in both the acute care/ICU and outpatient setting. She obtained her undergraduate degree from Michigan State University in Communication Sciences and Disorders and minor in Teacher Education and her Master of Science from Rush University in Chicago, Il. in Speech Language Pathology.  Julianna joined The Recovery Project in 2019 and specializes in the treatment of neurological conditions and has a specific passion for working with individuals with stroke, traumatic brain injuries, Parkinson's disease and executive functioning disorder. She focuses her work on assisting individuals in developing and implementing communication and executive functioning strategies to feel successful, connected and engaged at school, home and/or work. Julianna enjoys educating the community and speaking to support groups as well as leading the LOUD Crowd wellness class.Alysha DeMay MS, OTRL is the Lead Occupational Therapist at The Recovery Project in Lansing, Michigan.  She has specialized in the treatment of neurological diseases and disorders since 2017 with special interest in functional movement disorders, Parkinson's disease, stroke, and concussion.  Alysha is passionate about neuro rehab and excited to bring the latest research to practice.Olivia Risko, PT, DPT is a staff Physical Therapist at The Recovery Project in Lansing. Olivia graduated from Grand Valley State University in 2018 with a Bachelor of Science in Clinical Exercise Science and graduated from the University of Michigan Flint in 2021 as a Doctor of Physical Therapy. Olivia has developed a passion for neurologic diseases and disorders, including Parkinsons disease, FMD, CVA, and SCI. She is a certified Rock Steady Boxing affiliate coach and has been a leader in implementing high intensity gait training in her clinical practice.Learn more about The Recovery Project! View our website at www.therecoveryproject.net Call us 855-877-1944 to become a patient Follow us on Instagram Like us on Facebook Thanks for listening!

For Media Business Episode 47: Tony Conley has a three-part conversation with Beth LeBlanc. Reporter at The Detroit News. The Detroit News. From Davidson, Michigan. University of Michigan-Flint grad. For their discussion, they mainly focus on details surrounding Beth's recent article '1M Mich. residents to see criminal convictions automatically expunged' story. How does the new law work? What will it mean? Are other states looking at similar laws? Then they also tackle reports that Gun Groups are reportedly seeing the Michigan State House and Senate over the ability to testify on firearms bills,... why? » Visit MBN website: www.michiganbusinessnetwork.com/ » Subscribe to MBN's YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCqNX… » Like MBN: www.facebook.com/mibiznetwork » Follow MBN: twitter.com/MIBizNetwork/ » MBN Instagram: www.instagram.com/mibiznetwork/ Thank you to Benjamin Robinson and Motor City Skyline's music

I am fascinated by the number of persons I have had the honor to interview on Unstoppable Mindset who have a diagnosis that was made during their adult years related to some kind of neurodivergent situation. Most all have said that the later diagnoses came about due both to a more educated world as well as a greater acceptance of what we view as mental disorders. Chelsea Hartner is such a person. Like others we have met, Chelsea has used her diagnosis to take a leadership position concerning educating others about and promoting acceptance of issues such as ADHD and autism. Chelsea is quite engaging and was quite willing to tell her powerful story and how she became a DEI program manager for North America for Allegis Global Solutions, a leading workforce solutions provider to over 100 countries worldwide. She provides many insights into what companies, HR personnel and in fact all of us can do to create a more inclusive environment not only for persons diagnosed with any neurodivergent issue but for anyone who is different from what we think of as the norm of society. This interview is powerful and will definitely inspire you to be more open to exploring hiring anyone different than you. I look forward to learning your thoughts. About the Guest: Chelsea Hartner is a dedicated leader, neurodivergent advocate, and diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) practitioner. She currently works at Allegis Global Solutions, a leading workforce solutions provider to over 100 countries worldwide, as a DEI Program Manager for their North American region. She focuses on driving DEI initiatives that directly impact the organization's people and culture. Through her work, she aspires to minimize obstacles for people of all diverse identities to have equitable opportunities to reach their full potential in the workplace and find belonging. Chelsea's recent accomplishments include earning awards in DEI in her previous role and achieving contest milestones for her efforts in supporting STEM recruitment. Additionally, Chelsea is most proud of an article she recently published on LinkedIn outlining how best to support folks with neurodivergence in the workplace using examples from her diagnosis journey entitled Neurodivergence: Inclusively Leading Evolution's “Specialist Thinkers.” Outside of her work, Chelsea is currently pursuing her MBA at Western Governors University. In her free time, she is an avid foodie and enjoys travel. She loves going to concerts, listening to podcasts, and spending time with her husband and two cats. As a 2013 vocal performance graduate from the University of Michigan Flint, she is also very passionate about music and the arts. You can connect with Chelsea or stay up with her work by following her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelsea-hartner-vernarsky-a296b711a/ How to Connect with Chelsea: My LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelsea-hartner-vernarsky-a296b711a/ My article on neurodivergence: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/neurodivergence-inclusively-leading-evolutions-hartner-vernarsky/?trackingId=8t82dTuKTgKcgqAGi%2BQBXA%3D%3D About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Well, hi, once again, thanks for being here. And this is another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Chelsea Hartner. We've been working at this for a little while getting it all set up. We've had to postpone a couple of times for one thing or another. And we can't even blame the weather, although it's always fun to try to do that. But nevertheless, here we are. And Chelsea works in the world of diversity, equity and inclusion. I'm looking forward to having lots of chats about that. Dealing with neuro divergence, looking forward to chatting about that, and anything else that Chelsea wants to talk about. So Chelsea, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being here.   Chelsea Hartner  02:02 Hi, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.   Michael Hingson  02:05 Well, then let's just start by you telling us a little bit as I love to do about you growing up where you came from, and all those usual kinds of things that kind of got you started where you are.   Chelsea Hartner  02:19 Yeah, absolutely. So I have I'm born and raised in Michigan. I have stayed here pretty much my whole life. I've done some travel. But other than that, the Great Lakes keep calling me back. So I stay in this area here. Um, I grew up I was I was born in a city called Grand Rapids on the west side of the state of Michigan. You said you've been there? Yeah,   Michael Hingson  02:44 I did a speech there. Several years ago, the Lions Club sponsored me to come and do a speech. And there were some celebrations going on, I think was around September 11, actually, and it was a Boy Scout function. But they had me come and speak. So yeah, I've been there.   Chelsea Hartner  02:58 That's Grand Rapids is one of my favorite cities. Still. I wish I never moved, but gotta move where your parents take you and your child's parents. Yeah, those parents. But eventually, I ended up moving to a small town in Mid Michigan. And that was pretty much where I was born and raised, which is, it's called a Wasco. It's a small town just in the middle of the state. And then I grew up there with two older sisters, my parents, and I pretty much have always been involved with various different activities. I was acquired nerd. So I studied classical music since I was eight. And I've always been in choirs and performing and singing and doing community theater. And that eventually led me to college where I went and moved to Flint for the University of Michigan Flint where I studied vocal performance.   Michael Hingson  03:55 How'd that all work out?   Chelsea Hartner  03:58 Well, I'm in DNI now. So definitely was a transition for me changed   Michael Hingson  04:03 alone guy. Yeah. Why did you? Why did you do that? What What kept you from not only getting that degree, but then continuing down that path and being in a music career.   Chelsea Hartner  04:16 There were a lot of factors. I think, predominantly, one of the largest ones was it just really wasn't the lifestyle at the end of the day that I really wanted. I had a lot of various life circumstances that kind of played into changing deciding to change directions after college. And one of those was deciding, you know, I wanted to have a family. I wanted to be a little bit more settled. I didn't want to have to keep auditioning and never really know where where my next job is going to be because when you pursue things like opera, when there's when when singers are at and Opera House performing, they're auditioning for their next gig. So they're auditioning for, they're always auditioning, there's never like consistency. And it just got to a point to where I just realized, I couldn't do that it wasn't something I want, I couldn't afford to do that into. I just, I wanted to have a family and wanted consistency, I wanted benefits. And so at the time, I was selling suits, I was working at Men's Wearhouse selling suits. And I was working very closely with my store manager. And he helped me to discover that one of my biggest passions was relating to people and building relationships and making an impact in people's lives. And so I started to think about, well, maybe I want to do HR, maybe I want to go down that route. But it was really difficult to build a career and that when you don't have a degree in it, it's very, very hard. And then recruiting came up with a friend. And they were like, you don't want to do HR HR is too much paperwork you want to do recruiting. So I started looking into recruiting jobs. And when I ended up finding a recruiting position, it ended up being pretty life changing for me because it eventually led me to D and I, while I was there, I was recruiting for the last five years. And as a recruiter, I was also pulled into a lot of conversations within diversity, equity and inclusion. And then I started leading it for my team. And then I was a chair for my team. And then I was pulled into our executive council right before I left for a program manager role in it. So it was quite a good zigzag. I call it a zigzag. It was a good zigzag to get to where I'm at today.   Michael Hingson  06:50 So when you were a Men's Wearhouse, did you ever get to meet George?   Chelsea Hartner  06:54 Oh, no, he sadly was no longer there when he sold there. Yeah, I've heard I've heard so many good stories about him. No,   Michael Hingson  07:03 I, I remember some of the old original Men's Wearhouse commercials with with him. And I know that he sold it. And he's no longer there. But but I've occasionally gone to get some suits and things and Men's Wearhouse. And I've actually found people who did get a chance to meet him. And they say the same thing that the stories have all been very positive.   Chelsea Hartner  07:26 Yeah, he was a he was a good influence on that store a good leader at that time.   Michael Hingson  07:31 Well, everybody moves on. So you know, so you. So you are now a program manager? So what is a program manager in terms of being different than what you used to do?   Chelsea Hartner  07:44 That's a great question. So I have always done production roles. Sales is production recruiting is production. It's all about how many? How many calls you make, how many people you talk to, you know, in recruiting, it's, it's always about how many people are you helping to get jobs, you know, there's a lot of just milestones that you have to be hitting from hourly, weekly, sometimes monthly basis quarterly, you know, there's just always, these are our numbers. And we have to maintain these numbers, or these are our daily goals and things like that. And program management is not production. So it is not like fast paced, it's not urgent, it is very strategic, it is change management, it is building relationships, making changes and are making influential and strategic changes. And a lot of that is more spaced out over time. It's a lot. It can be frankly, it can be slower. But it tends to be more rewarding, because the impact is bigger once like that program has been achieved. What are the whatever that might look like?   Michael Hingson  08:58 So is that a program essentially, within your company, as opposed to doing recruiting? Or do you still get involved in recruiting directly? Are you now kind of helping to shape policy in a lot of ways?   Chelsea Hartner  09:10 I'm more I'm more involved with our DNI specific initiatives. So it's not so I don't I don't support recruiting anymore. I've done some, some additional updates, like on some of our recruiter training, but I haven't showed that but I don't specifically support that. So my primary focus in my with my team is within. So I guess I'm backing up a bit because it's a lot easier to explain this way. So we prioritize our initiatives within three pillars. So we have workforce, workplace and marketplace. And each one of those has a different focus. And so it's probably easier to think of it more like the people of the organization, the environment of the organization and how we impact our Customer, I specifically focus within the environment and the people buckets. And so my initiatives and goals are all about driving effective change in strategy across the organization as it relates to DNI for our people, that eventually will also impact our environment.   Michael Hingson  10:19 So for you, how did you get involved in really doing dei kind of work? It because that's clearly a whole lot different than vocal and even directly recruiting and so on, what kind of was what pushed you to do that?   Chelsea Hartner  10:37 I had somebody pull me into it. Um, so I had an instance where I felt like I wanted to quit. And I wasn't very, I didn't feel like I was I was having a, I didn't feel like I was fitting in with my team, I didn't feel like I was making deep connections with my team, I was really struggling with being able to find meaning, just specifically within the culture of my team. And I went to one of the, like, there was only a handful of female leaders in our office at that time. And I mean, this was five years ago. So a lot has changed since then. A lot has changed since. And I went to, I went to her it and I just kind of shared with her what I was struggling with and where I was that and she said, you know, Chelsea, I think the reason why you don't feel like you're you fit in is because you're not meant to fit in, you're here to change things. And I'd really like you to, you know, join me in the next DNI call that I like, you can shadow me on the nasty and I call that I have with the company. And so that was really how I got into it. It really wasn't anything that I had initially initiated because they didn't understand it. I came from a background that didn't even have DNI. So I had no idea what this even was. And I was in here I am thrown into a team that actually really, really does a lot of work within DNI. And but I was still new. And so I still didn't understand it. And so ever since she pulled me into it, I started to shadow her meetings and listen to the phone calls and kind of the things that they were talking about it about, and I would translate it back to my office into my team. And then I eventually started to lead in that capacity across the team and help develop more diverse hiring initiatives. And then I started to help with just kind of thinking through diversity and inclusion and what that meant for our specific pocket of recruiting and, and training and development. And then eventually, an opportunity opened up at our sister company where I'm at now. And that's how I eventually came over there. Because there, there was an opening for program manager and I had all this experience that I was doing on the side to my recruiting role that prepared me for this.   Michael Hingson  13:10 So the whole idea of recruiting and the whole environment that you had certainly had to help prepare you for doing this, which is I think what you're saying,   Chelsea Hartner  13:21 totally, yeah, there's a big element in recruiting that I think is highly underestimated. And it's really just building true authentic relationships with people. I think that the best recruiters out there actually build authentic relationships with their people, they know their contractors, they have they have they build the rapport with them from the beginning throughout their contract work at the at the client. And that ultimately, at the end of the day was the most rewarding part about being a recruiter. But doing the work with my team ended up ended up supplementing my my y as Simon Sinek likes to likes to talk about the y and that that's a really big thing with me is the y. And for me specifically, it got to a point to where I had I felt like I really mastered recruiting, I felt like okay, I'm good. I you know, I've hit some milestones, I've won some I've won some acknowledgments here. But I think it's time for me to to look and see what else I could do that makes a bigger impact. And my why change for me in those five years of recruiting from making an impact with helping people find their next career to helping people in the organization find their next career because I wanted people in the organization to start feeling a better sense of belonging and to feel that there's an opportunity for them across the organization. And so that kind of shifted for me, and that's when I was like, Okay, I think it's time for me to step out of recruiting and actually move into this other area.   Michael Hingson  15:01 Well, you also mentioned to me when last we chatted, and I think it's in your bio, that you had a medical diagnosis that probably has had some impact on you. Can you maybe talk about that a little?   Chelsea Hartner  15:14 Yeah, definitely. Um, so in 2020, like most people, I started seeing a therapist. I think that there's just a lot of things that were kind of kind of catapulting me to seek additional help. At the time, my fiance and I had to push our wedding back, because we were supposed to get married in 2020. And we had to push it back. And there was just a lot going on. And I was really struggling through it. And I started seeing a therapist, who I actually found through my company's EAP program. So to anybody who's listening or watching, if your company has an EAP program, I highly recommend that you look into it. He is EAP is part of the benefit program   Michael Hingson  16:04 understands, but it stands for oh, that's a great.   Chelsea Hartner  16:07 Oh, you got me. I actually don't know what it stands for. But I can share that with you.   Michael Hingson  16:12 Program or something like that. Yeah, I think   Chelsea Hartner  16:14 I pretty sure you're right. But that's how I found my my therapist, and she brought up to me I was having a pretty deep session. I don't quite remember what exactly he was talking about at the time. And but she just brought up have you ever been diagnosed for ADHD? And I was really taken aback. I actually kind of got a little defensive. Initially, I was like, no, no, I haven't. I haven't been diagnosed for that. No, nobody's brought that up. No, that's not me. But my sister's have ADHD. And she's like, really, they have ADHD? And so why haven't you know? Like, why haven't you looked into it? Like have you just had has it just not ever come up. And it's not that I hadn't ever come up. It's I think that my sisters when they were both diagnosed, they both encouraged me to look into it. And at the time, I was like, No, I'm not not hyperactive, bouncing off the walls, you know, all the stigmas that come with ADHD, little like young boys in elementary school. Like, that's initially where my head went. And it was really awful. Like looking back, and realizing that this stigma that I had about ADHD actually limited me for so long with getting my own diagnosis, and potentially my own support for years. Could have really helped, but it probably in many ways did hold me back that I just didn't notice. But after, you know, after she brought it up, I talked to my sisters about it again, because this was the first therapists like I've been in and out of therapy, I've always kind of like I promote therapy. And I'm a big, big proponent of mental wellness. And I've been and I've always seen therapists off and on, but none of them have brought this up. And so I talked to my sisters about it in more detail. And I started to do a lot of research, a lot of research, just an astronomical amount of research on what ADHD is, how the symptoms really show up, especially in especially for females or for people that are socialized as females. And I think that I eventually just kind of said, Okay, I think I'm ready to explore this a little more. So she referred me to somebody and it was confirmed that I have combined ADHD. And I got that diagnosis in 2020. And that definitely has impacted has played a major role actually, in my career and how I approach work, and just about everything that I do now, I think that it's just having the blinders pulled off my eyes, has just really confronted me like I'm constantly in confrontation with it in a positive way, just like acknowledging the real elements of who I am for the first time in my life.   Michael Hingson  19:17 So you weren't diagnosed for a long time. And I will tell you I've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who have been in the same kind of position that is they didn't get diagnosed until later in life for whatever reason. But how has it made a difference for you what maybe I should start and go back a little bit what are kind of the things that demonstrate and manifested that you had ADHD? So what what kinds of experiences do you did you have that led people to diagnose you with it and that is in terms of your, your personal experiences.   Chelsea Hartner  19:55 I think some of the most common ones for sure are impulsivity, impulsivity. He is a huge symptom in various ways. But for me, it was specifically within behavior. Like there's just a lot of like behavioral impulsive, react like impulsive reactions, struggling with emotional regulation. executive function was a big one executive function by far shows up the most as a project program manager than I think I've ever experienced before. And I well, and that might not be true now that I'm saying not just because I know for sure it impacted my education, because I was a fairly mediocre student, I was very, very average. But I struggled in this in the school in the schoolwork. And in the classes that required a lot of steps, like math, chemistry, jump, like all of those ones, where there's just a lot of steps, it was very difficult for me to actually put the right thing or to put things together in the sequences that it needed to do to get the correct answer. And I definitely struggle with over rumination. So I think one term that comes up a lot for ADHD within the ADHD community is rejection sensitive dysphoria. So like having this innate sensitivity to just rejection and just overwhelm and increased anxiety and a lot of times, especially within females, and people that are raised as females that we struggle with anxiety and depression. And oftentimes, those are comorbidities to our ADHD, but they can often disguise their ADHD symptoms, which is also one of the reasons why a lot of our diagnoses are in our adulthood, when our structure and our systems in place have been jolted like COVID, for example, when COVID came all of my structure and and processes and system and routine out the window gone. And it just made life hectic and chaotic and overwhelming, and very difficult for me to process. And that eventually exposed What I didn't realize I had my whole life. Until that moment.   Michael Hingson  22:20 Yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating to hear about it. As I said, I've had other people on the podcast who have talked about it too. And that once once they realize, and once you discovered what was really going on, it had to bring some peace to your world, I would think sometimes. Well, at least you know what's going on?   Chelsea Hartner  22:47 Yeah, you know, and I think and, you know, speaking vulnerably I would imagine, you know, anybody listening that this might, might resonate with them, I think that, um, initially, there was a lot of feelings of shame. If there was a lot of feelings of feeling just like I missed out, like I could have had, I could have had support, I could have had necessary accommodations, I could have had so much more help. Had I known sooner, I would have been able to explain a lot of the things that I don't know how to explain an advocate for myself today. If I would have known years ago, because I would have been, I would have lived with it for so much longer. And not that I'm haven't lived with it this whole time, but in the acknowledgement of living with it. And you kind of go through this feat, this period. I've heard I've heard other women express this, that you kind of go through this period of almost like mourning, because it's like a total jolt to your identity. Like you, you don't realize that it really does. It really it really does impact who you are and how you see yourself. And then when you end up having those neurodivergent moments are those ADHD moments. Initially, once you start with once you can identify them and you you're able to acknowledge what's happening or what's going on in your mind or what you're struggling with is a symptom of your ADHD or your neuro divergence. It's kind of this initial feeling of just Shame, shame and upset, shame, disappointment upset, but then you eventually move through that. And I finally gotten to a point where it's not that I don't struggle with that because I definitely still do, but I'm able to acknowledge okay, like I have tools now to help me get through this moment to help me overcome this. And I can manage this moment And I know how to communicate this now to my manager on what I need and the support I'm looking for from them. And they're able to help provide that for me, because I'm able to advocate better for myself. But initially, it was very difficult. So sometimes there's peace, and sometimes there's still frustration.   Michael Hingson  25:23 Yeah, hopefully it lessens over time, but we all get locked into the shoulda, coulda, woulda kind of thing really tends to create a lot of problems rather than dealing with acceptance and recognizing, okay, there's nothing I could have done about this earlier, because I didn't know. And now it's time to move forward. But I would think that as you just described it, now that you have been given this, I'm gonna put it this way gift of a diagnosis that allows you to move forward and recognize more about you, that must make you a lot stronger program manager in dealing with diversity and inclusion in what you do on the job, because now you can deal with it from experience.   Chelsea Hartner  26:12 I appreciate I appreciate that. I hope it does. I mean, that's, you know, I hope that, uh, I use it as that. Because there's, especially within the disability community, it's so diverse, like, there are so many different layers and intersectionalities that meet within disability and the fact that really, disability is a minority group that it can impact any single person at any point in time in their life is astounding. So it's it's definitely something that has catapulted like, the things that I struggle with, and what I look at, and how, and how it impacts me, has helped me be able to be a bit bigger advocate a stronger voice, for other people with disabilities and other dimensions of diversity. Because there's just there's there is a different kind of, to your point, there is a different tie to it. Now, I'm invested in it in my self, as much as I'm invested in it for others, but there's but there is a different type, because I can identify a little bit closer to it.   Michael Hingson  27:25 The the whole idea of disability is so frustrating in some ways, because, as I put it, and I haven't seen a better way to put it yet. We don't recognize in the world that disability does not mean a lack of ability. And so unfortunately, if you were to be looking for a job, for example, and say you have a disability, you'll probably just be dismissed. Because we have such a prejudice about the word, when in reality, disability does not mean a lack of ability. It is a characteristic. But it is only a negative characteristic if we choose to allow it to be and if we allow others to decide that it's a negative and a problem. Because the reality what it really means is we're different, in some ways, but everyone is different. I love to tell on this podcast that in reality, every single person with eyesight has a disability, you guys are light dependent. And you don't get you don't get along well without light in your lives. And Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb and the others who were involved in that invented the electric light bulb to hide your disability and give you light, day and night. But the reality is it doesn't change the fact that you have a disability, which gets to show up every time there's a power failure or anything like that.   Chelsea Hartner  28:47 Mm hmm. Yeah, I've heard you mentioned that I'm former podcast and you know, and it breaks my heart because I can't say that that's not true that that has not impacted people because the reality is, is that the reason why people say that they struggle with disclosing that they have a disability is because of the fear that they could be rejected from a job that they might not get, that they might not get the promotion that they're looking for, that they might not be taken seriously within their company is very real. I'm really thankful that I that I work for a company that's that is very inclusive, we encourage people to become to work as their authentic selves. Which is why I I am comfortable with disclosing and sharing openly about my neuro divergence and what I need. And that is one of the things like the fact that other people do experience that in their careers motivates me that much more within within this field to continue to pave the way that nobody will ever feel that way. Wherever I work,   Michael Hingson  30:02 yeah. And the fact is that the barriers start to break down. When the person who is different, the person with a so called Disability is involved in a job, and others get to know them. And I realized that the fear and the stigma about disclosing any kind of disability is strong. For some of us, we don't get that option. But but the fact of the matter is that once people really get to know us, and they accept us, then we have a much greater opportunity to disclose and educate. But the fact is that, again, disability should not mean lack of ability. And we've got to get society in general to accept that, which really means that we all have to work harder to educate, and to help people move along and become better and more informed than they are. And so bless you for what you're doing.   Chelsea Hartner  31:08 Thank you, you know, you said two things that that made me think you said, it's my ADHD coming in. So I'm trying to recall right now. So I'm just kind of tracing back a little bit. But one of the one of the things that you said, that just really stood out to me, and you said it a couple of times now is it doesn't mean in a disability doesn't mean inability. And I think that there's a breakdown where a lot of people still struggle with just using the terminology disability. And, and I think that the more consistent that we can be, and the more the more visible that we can be, the less we are, the more we'll continue to just break down those stigmas. stigmas, break down those those perceived notions of what that means. But the other thing that you mentioned was about the more they get to know you, right, and education. What I want to when I want to help limit is that that emotional way of education is on is on the person with a disability to educate their team like that that's an emotional weight that they should not be carrying. That's something that the leadership team needs to be prepared in advance on how to ensure that they're leading inclusively, and that their team is prepared on how to be inclusive team members, to whomever that person is that's joining their team. That's where DNI comes in to help create policies, but to also help provide tactical tools that leaders can use to to build an accommodating and inclusive workforce.   Michael Hingson  32:44 I would say that, the more comfortable each of us are with our differences, however, then the better we'll feel about being part of that educational process. I do think that, in reality, most of us are treated the way we are because of a lack of knowledge. And because there is fear, and I appreciate the fear. But the lack of knowledge is something that we're in the best positions to address, and change. Not that we're going to just go out and preach all the time, but but the fact is that we're the best teachers, if we're comfortable enough to be able to do that. And I think it's something that we do need to, you know, to look at, we shouldn't be hired as token teachers. But teaching is part of what we can do, and should do. So for example, I've talked to people who happen to be blind, who get very offended when someone comes up and talks with them about being blind. And what's it like and all that and, and some of the blindness related organizations have helped create those frustrations because of how they've treated blindness. But the fact is that if we get comfortable ourselves and recognize that we're the best teachers, and think about that and internalize it, then we are in a better position to move forward and help others understand really what's going on. And the reason I stick with using Disability is what are their terminology is are people talk about differently abled, I'm not differently abled. The fact that I'm blind doesn't make me differently abled, I'm still able in the same way I may use different techniques or a different product. But women and men do that all the time. Left handed people are different than right handed people in some ways, but you don't call them differently abled. Chris, you don't call them persons with disabilities necessarily all the left handed people are in a minority. But we've got to get beyond being uncomfortable saying that like it is   Chelsea Hartner  34:48 yeah. And that's, that is my that's my point is that the more transparent we can be, the more visible we can be. So that's how we break down those two ears and stick are stereotypes and stigmas. And I do understand your point in regards to like the education of women. Because, you know, from somebody within DNI there, there is a lens there where there are certain demographics and certain identity groups that they're tired. They're tired of carrying the load of educating they're sure. But I do think that there is an element of partnership and collaboration, that that some people that are comfortable with doing that can do that. But as a person of the DNI team, we don't want to put that expectation on our people to do that is   Michael Hingson  35:42 correct. It is something that we should want to do and do when we can. But we shouldn't be hired with that obligation in mind.   Chelsea Hartner  35:50 Right? Yep. And that's why it's really great when companies have employee resource groups or business resource groups, because employee resource groups will call them ERGs, and business resource groups, which are BRG. So, those groups of folks, when they have their communities, they're great platforms for helping to drive that inclusive culture and break down those barriers even further, because now you have a community, a group of people within your organization, who are speaking loudly for who they're representing, and helping to uplift and advocate for, for what they need.   Michael Hingson  36:31 Well, let's really get to a slightly different subject and get to the meat of all this and get to the real realities that we have to face. You have two cats. How do they fit into ADHD? They're always demanding.   Chelsea Hartner  36:44 Oh, I love my cats. They I mean, they love my ADHD because I'm always playing with   Michael Hingson  36:50 well, when and it's always about attention demand from a cat, right? So same thing.   Chelsea Hartner  36:57 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Rosie and Cedric and they are care. They're everything for me. I'm definitely a cat mom.   Michael Hingson  37:09 higher priority than husband since it fiance is now husband, right? Yeah. Did you guys get married?   Chelsea Hartner  37:15 We got married in April of 2021. All right. Yeah. So we got married a year later, we pushed it out to the spring. We were originally supposed to have a fall wedding and in 2020, and we had to, we had to cut the gasless which was really difficult. We had to cut it quite a lot just because of the requirements in the state. But we ended up having a beautiful wedding and the spring it was literally the only day the whole week. That didn't rain. It was beautiful.   Michael Hingson  37:41 That's great. Yeah, well, congratulations. So who has the higher rank in the pecking order? The cats who the husband?   Chelsea Hartner  37:50 Well, he would say the cats I don't know if I would argue with him.   Michael Hingson  37:56 I know hard cats are pretty demanding. We have one or I have one. My wife passed last month. So it's pretty sad. But the cat has decided that that I can serve its needs. So I am the the main person who carries out the wishes of she who must be obeyed at all times.   Chelsea Hartner  38:17 Yeah. Oh, you've been chosen?   Michael Hingson  38:21 Or co opted. But yeah. Well, so you in terms of all the fishes with disabilities and so on what what really got you to the point of accepting the ADHD and and that you really are different and that's okay.   Chelsea Hartner  38:44 Yeah, so, earlier this year, my company invested myself and a handful of our enable ERG leads. So enable is our persons with disabilities employee resource group, and we had several people from the globe that got the opportunity to attend disability and virtually this year and the whole topic like every topic that that was aired for us to be able to watch virtually was all about disclosure and visibility and and especially the importance as it applies to those in leadership so like manager roles, executive leader roles, Director roles like that we it's really, really important that especially when you're in a quote unquote, leader role, that you are that much more visible and authentic, because if if you're not, then you're not really establishing that it's safe for people to disclose their true selves with within the company. And there was a speaker, I wrote her name down because I knew I would forget. And her name is Ebony Thomas. She is the president Have Bank of America I believe a specific group, but I can't recall, I didn't write it down. But she works for Bank of America, me Thomas. And she specific I wrote verbatim, because they're close it out to me. You can't be your best self if you're hiding yourself. And that just really, really resonated. But like it just I think that at that time, I was still fighting against who I was this ADHD, how I was really impacting me, especially as a new program manager, because I was still really new in my role at the time I got the opportunity to, to attend this conference virtually. And that just like, resonated against all the walls in my head in my heart. And ever since then I was just kind of like, you know what I'm not, I'm not doing justice to anybody else that might be struggling with the things that I struggle with, or going through things, even bigger than what I'm going through, if I don't just step up and just own this, and visibly within my organization. And so that was when things really changed for me. And I just, I just decided, hey, this is who I am. And I have to own it, I have to own it in myself,   Michael Hingson  41:15 you internalized it and you made a decision. And that that's, I think, the biggest key to so many different things. I'm writing a book about fear. And that's one of the things that I talk about is internalizing and making decisions, we're so afraid, and we're taught to be afraid of so many things unexpected life changes, things that happen to us. And we just create these fears. And we don't learn how to allow our minds to step in and go wait a minute, do I need to be afraid of this? Or can I use the fear to help be a a motivator? And can I use it to help me learn more and make more intelligent decisions? Because when we become as I call it blinded by fear, we tend to get to the point where we can't make decisions, you clearly went a different way, which is great.   Chelsea Hartner  42:12 Yeah, I one thing that I definitely get from my dad is I am a bit of a fighter. I definitely have never, I've always been. I'm just really, I'm just really good at being able to, to shift the mindset, especially when it's needed. And I think that I just hit a wall of, I can't continue to be fixed mindset, like I have to, I have to open up I have to, I have to shift this or I'm just going to continue to spiral in anxiety and frustration. Until I until I own this and can accept this in myself. I can't expect anybody else to I can't expect anybody else to accept this part of me. Like I have to I have to accept it first.   Michael Hingson  43:05 I think you put it very well. mindset shift. It's all about mindset. And it is all about adopting a mindset that allows you to move forward and do what you really want to do. And so you've you've taken ownership, you've changed your mindset. And that's really pretty cool. Thanks. And I you know, you can't, can't argue with success with that. If If you had known at a younger age, about being ADHD, do you think it would have made a difference in what you're doing and changed your path and a lot of ways?   Chelsea Hartner  43:43 Um, sometimes sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't? What I be what I've end and I would I've ever gone into recruiting and staffing like would I have ever, you know, would I ever done those things? I have no idea. But some days, I think that had I known sooner, I probably would have gone to the unit to to a different university. Um, I probably would have stayed in music, at least for a while longer. I probably would have gotten my graduate degree in music. Because I would have been able to stick to it I think a little bit longer just just out of what was required for pursuing a graduate degree in music. There's a lot of extra additional work that that you have to go to that you have to build on that. And I think that being in pursuing especially classical music, there's a lot of executive functioning skills that you know, realize they're really needed in that industry and really needed in that field that had I known sooner, I might have had this the toolbox to help me manage Ah, but I don't know. But I don't know if I don't know if I would have stayed in music. But would I be in D? And I don't know either.   Michael Hingson  45:09 Yeah, cuz again, we get back to shoulda, coulda, woulda really doesn't help much? Well, you can speculate all day long. Yeah, but the other part about it is that if you really go back and look at your life, you can trace where you are from all the choices that you made? And would you have made different choices? Who knows? You know, maybe, but you also may have ended up exactly where you are. So it's, it's really just kind of one of those things you can think about. But that's about all you can do with it, because you're where you are, and you're being successful, which is as good as it gets, I think.   Chelsea Hartner  45:44 Yeah, and I think it's about really just trying, I don't, I've heard this phrase before, and I, I feel really bad when I can't credit people that I that I hear phrases from so grow where you're planted. I think that that's really, I think that that's really instrumental, especially when, especially just in general, like, especially when your life took a turn that it wasn't in that you had never intended it to take, right. Like I, I thought since I was eight, I was going to move to New York and be an opera singer and travel the world and, and that was just not what happened when I turned 22. You know, like, my life just took a different path. And I think that the beautiful part about being alive and going through the journey of living and of life is through the zigzags of the journey, it's it's never always going to be a straight path. And I think that I think that there's a lot of growing pains that come through that but those growing pains turn into really beautiful into beautiful flowers. Like there's, I know, that sounds so cheesy, I'm hearing myself say that out loud. But there's, there's a lot of really beautiful things that come from, there's a lot of beautiful things that come from that element of, okay, this was a hard transition for me, but look where I'm at now and look what I'm doing now. And I know that there's gonna be another one down the road, but then you know, I'm gonna get over that that hill, and there's going to be something better on the other side again, and that's just kind of how life seems to happen.   Michael Hingson  47:18 Well, again, it goes back to choices. And if you really go back and look at all the choices that you made, you will probably find that even though some of them may have been based on things that were unexpected that occurred. If you go back and look at the choices that you made, you can see why you ended up where you were, and you seem very comfortable with your job. And again, what more can you ask for?   Chelsea Hartner  47:47 No, you're 100%. Right, I can definitely trace back to how I got to D and I like I can, I can identify certain mile markers in my life that were significant enough, that changed me enough to realize the importance of to realize the importance of DNI, to understand it to understand the various elements that that affect various demographic groups and various identities that might hold them back in the workplace that they might experience versus what I my experience in my lived experience. And those those mile markers on this journey have really, really directed me without me ever knowing it. And so to answer to that first question, yeah, maybe ADHD, if I would have known it sooner, my direction would have been different. But there still would have been mile markers, that still would have pointed me toward whatever I would have been or could have been. And that at that point in my life, but to your additional point, this is where I'm at now. And this is where I'm meant to be right now.   Michael Hingson  49:02 And that's perfectly reasonable. And we we all too often tend not to be comfortable in our skins. And we really should look at all the blessings that we have that really brought us to where we are and a lot of times, we might find that we're a whole lot better off than we thought we were.   Chelsea Hartner  49:20 Yeah. I'm not always. Yeah. But again, yeah, depends on the circumstance. Yeah, but   Michael Hingson  49:27 reflectivity and, and introspection can always help. It also may tell us, okay, here's why I'm not really happy with where I am. And so what am I going to do about it? So again, it still gives you the opportunity to look at life and make decisions.   Chelsea Hartner  49:48 Well, there's, I'm a full of quotes today, apparently, um, there's okay. There's a quote by Mary Barra, who I love and think she's incredible. She's the CEO of GM and or General Motors. And she said that she said before, that making or not making a not making a decision is still making a decision still   Michael Hingson  50:11 making a decision. Absolutely.   Chelsea Hartner  50:13 And that sticks with me, because I am all about, I'm all about that I can either I can either stay where I'm at, or I can continue to move forward, or I can run away. And I, and I think that that's why I say like, I get a little bit of this from my dad is like, I'm a fighter, like if I'm put into a position where I have to make a quick decision for the better of my current circumstance, I'm going to do it, and I'm going to do it right away, I'm not going to wait, I'm going to take the initiative, and I'm going to do it. And I think that that is the beauty of like, you know, kind of talking about like that piece element of ADHD like that impulsive stride of my ADHD has really pushed me in ways, again, kind of looking back as mile markers that I never saw before. And like, in those circumstances where I have to make that decision. That's, that's right. For me for the betterment of my future trajectory. I'm going to impulsively do that, because I'm not going to wait, because I know that that's the right thing to do.   Michael Hingson  51:20 So carrying on that, that whole thing a little bit, whether it's a team decision or whatever, when you make a decision, what do you do when you discover that maybe it wasn't really the best decision?   Chelsea Hartner  51:35 Apologize? Yeah, like ownership seems to be a common thread in our conversation today. And, um, you know, a part of Extreme Ownership is, is being able to own when you're not when you're not right. And, and I think that that is the element, that's one of the elements of being in my role that is hard for me, because I do have to take into consideration before I just make a decision or before I just go, I do have to take into consideration. Okay, have I certainly have have I talked to the right stakeholders, have I gotten the right buy in have I put in the right plan to ensure that this doesn't, that this isn't like an initiative, that's, that's just going to hit the wall. And, you know, it's going to make an impact for a week, and then everyone's gonna forget about it, but that this is thoroughly implemented into how we do things across the organization. And that is the hard part about kind of like reeling myself back in. But when but when we are talking like specifically about life choices and making the right life decisions, and the confidence in that those are, those are two different elements of, of, of that impulsive drive. And controlling it is a little bit different. But I do have to be in the circumstance that it wasn't the right decision. And especially as it applies to my job, I do have to be a lot more considerate, because I can't just do things. That's just not how business works.   Michael Hingson  53:10 Well, yeah. So one of my favorite books is a book entitled The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. And he talks a lot about decisions. And he talks a lot about teamwork. And one of the things that he really stresses is, when a decision is made, whether it's an individual decision by a team leader, because it's their job, or the team makes a decision. Everyone should I support the decision. If you find out it's the wrong decision. You acknowledge that and then you reassess. And I think that's the big issue. You you do take ownership. But the reality is that decisions also may be made that were incorrect, but you only the information that you had was what led you to make that decision. Right. So the fact is that while a decision may not have been correct, if it wasn't just made arbitrarily without thought, then in reality, if you thought about it right then okay, it was the wrong decision. You own it, and you go back and you reassess, and you may involve other people or whatever needs to be done, but I'm you're right, it's all about ownership of what you do. Mm hmm. But that's okay.   Chelsea Hartner  54:30 Yeah, no, I totally. I stand by that. And I'm, I'm a very I'm a fairly transparent person. And one of the things that I value in other people's transparency and so when it comes to when it comes to decisions, and when it comes to, you know, needing to pivot or needing to, I say pivot and I just hear pivot from friends in the back of my head, um, but I don't I'm not sure if you watch that show. Um, Hey, friends. Yeah, I just, I just watched that episode yesterday. So it's an iron that when I said to that, but anyways, um, the but but that, but when you have to make a decision, being transparent about, hey, you know, we did this, or I made the decision that we should do XY and Z. But this wasn't the best route. And this is why and this is what we found. And I think, and I think we need to work together as a team, let's let's work together as a team, take this feedback that we got, and let's pivot, let's move, let's move this other direction. And I think that one of the things that's really nice is there are various different program management styles that are in place that are very, very helpful with with that type of management style. And Agile is one of them, because you can kind of change as you go. So it's not where you're just like setting in stone, but you're taking that feedback and you're making changes as, as the feedback comes in, to help improve the program, whatever it might be.   Michael Hingson  56:05 Yeah, you, you always need to make informed decisions and be ready to gain and change. If the informed decision turns out not to be the right one, you move on from that and you go do what, what you need to do nothing wrong with that, and ultimately, leads to a stronger, more intelligent, not only person, but team. And it makes for a much better situation all around for everyone. And you get more respected if you acknowledge when maybe there was a mistake that was made. If you're the person who ultimately has responsibility, you say, okay, didn't do that, right, or there was a problem doesn't matter whose fault it was, it may not have even been something that was directly your fault, but you own it. You go back and you deal with it.   Chelsea Hartner  56:54 I've always respected leaders that have upheld and Extreme Ownership mindset. And I think that some of the best mentors and leaders that I've worked with have have maintained that,   Michael Hingson  57:06 right? What if if you had to give some advice to hiring managers who are knowingly thinking about employing someone with neuro divergence, what would you what would you say to them.   Chelsea Hartner  57:18 So if I'm talking to managers who are specifically hiring somebody with neuro divergence, the number one thing that I'm going to recommend is that they do some addition, they do some research, they need to identify like, especially if somebody's disclosed, specifically what they have, like, if they've disclosed, hey, I have ADHD, or they have disclosed, hey, I have autism, or, you know, whatever element that is, they need to start doing some of their own research. But they also need to be working hand in hand with the HR team to ensure that they're providing the right accommodations in place for that person. A lot of elements of being your divergence have been neurodivergent, especially within from from research that I've read and gained a lot of folks within the autism spectrum. And within ADHD, which is also considered a spectrum disorder, there are sensory stimulation overloads, that they that they can experience. And that varies based on the person, the fact that it's already considered a spectrum disorder means that each person is different. They need to also be having a maintaining one on ones with that person and providing consistent feedback with that person so that they're not ever left wondering, Am I doing anything, right? Because I think that a lot of times, we we internalize a lot of things, there's a lot of things that happen in our heads that don't, that that you will never see. And a lot of that is because of just an internalization, an internalization that we've experienced our whole lives, that we will continue to maintain the rest of our lives. Because of how how we were treated in school, what we had to overcome in school, things that we that we struggled with, in college, you know, with our peer groups, there's there's a lot of elements there. So educate yourself work with your HR team, plan one on ones, I would also partner them with a buddy, I would get them partnered with a buddy because it's very difficult for us to feel it's very difficult for some folks within the neurodivergent community to feel comfortable with tough feedback. And with asking difficult questions, but when we innit, but when we have a built a good relationship with somebody, it helps ease that tension. And especially if there are like specific social norms that are important to be aware of that. Because there are some corporate cultures that are very just extroverted cultures that have a very high expectation of how people interact with each other around the office. It's really happy to have a buddy in the beginning of their career that can kind of help break down some of those, those social cues for them so that they can understand that as they progress.   Michael Hingson  1:00:08 And again, the other. The other aspect of all of this is, of course, that when you're talking to someone who might be considering hiring someone who they learn is a person with a disability and neuro divergence, in this case, specifically, that there's nothing wrong with doing that everyone has gifts, and it's all about finding the right gifts for the right job. And that, that if a person shows a resume that demonstrates they have the gifts that you need, then you don't rule them out. You learn how to make it work, because everyone's different. The fact is, even if you have 10, people you're considering none of whom have neuro divergence. They're all different, and they're all going to behave differently and everything else. So we need to, again, get the stigma out of it.   Chelsea Hartner  1:00:56 Yeah, I think one of the things that I find really interesting that I wrote about this in my article that I posted on LinkedIn, about neuro divergence is that at the end of the day, neuro divergence and people that bring that part of them that bring that with them, because we can't leave it behind us, like we come into the workplace, right? Like, we really are helping, like, when leaders can be very intentional about being inclusive leaders, they're being very individual per person. And that's really ultimately a true sign of a real inclusive leader is when they're being is when they're providing individual coaching, mentoring, manager, management, leadership, whatever, to each person individually as they are, and as in how they come to work every day. And neuro divergence, it kind of forces that because especially if like, our symptoms that are pretty, pretty obvious, or that our neuro divergence is obvious, because and that's that's not to exclude other other groups and other and other demographics and identities, I want to be very clear about that. That's there's no comparison there. Um, it My point is just that, at the end of the day, all leaders they really need to, they need to start thinking and having a very individualistic approach to their leadership style. And that was kind of the goal that I had when I wrote my article on LinkedIn about neuro divergence. And that's just what stood out to me about what you just said, there's nothing wrong with that. And those internal partners that we have, like our HR team, or dei team, our employee experiencing, like, those are the people that we should be connecting with and working with to help prep us and prime us internally, to ensure that when somebody comes in, they're bringing their best selves to work. But they're not staying in that position. My goal eventually, right, like, I don't want to stay in this role forever. Like, we're all we're all progressing in our careers. And so I think, I think there's also an element there of, we have to be we have to get past this, this point of, okay, I hired I hired somebody within this community or within this dimension. Okay, now what right, like I think a lot of managers at some points in time still can get stuck there. And it's a matter of, we still need to be mentoring these people, we still need to be retaining and advancing and paying them equitably across the organization. And a lot of that is comes down to that individual leadership approach.   Michael Hingson  1:03:45 And I think one of my favorite ways to assess a leader is to also see that they recognize when they need to give up being the leader to let somebody else lead, and there are going to be times that you or any one of us with a so called disability may be the best person to take over in some particular situation that's going on within the team. And the good leaders are the ones who are willing to recognize that and value it. And all too often we just let ego get in the way. You know, so it really is an issue. What would you say? And what kind of advice would you give to a person who is applying for a job? Who has a disability? Well, let's deal with a neuro divergence type of disability, what would you advise them?   Chelsea Hartner  1:04:36 You know, I know it's I know it's difficult to self ID and know it's difficult to disclose, but I really highly encourage it. If you get denied an opportunity because of it. You don't want that job anyways. Yeah, like, flat out. You don't want that job anyways, you want to work at the company, that when you disclose, they're going to take it seriously and they're going to prep their managers and you Our new team for your for you to be a part of the company. Because at the end of the day, if we continue to mask or continue to hide or continue to cover up our disability or neuro divergence, or any other dimension of ourselves, then we're gonna continue to keep the stigma, keep the barriers, we're going to continue to have equitable OR, or NOT equality, but but equitable opportunities taken away from us like we need. And we're never going to really be able to truly get the support that we need and advocate clearly for that we have to be visible, we have to be out front about it. And I can't I can't repeat that enough. I know. And I say that as somebody who's who has a job, and who's happy in her role and works for an inclusive company. But I know that sometimes people are just, they're in a box, they just they have to accept that job. But But I promise you that there, there are a lot of jobs hiring right now, like, come work for my company, like, you just you don't you don't need to settle for a job that isn't going to respect to you. If you disclose that you have a disability, and they pull that job from you because of it.   Michael Hingson  1:06:19 And I've had that happen to me. But I've learned that here's the other thing to do. I took a Dale Carnegie sales course. And my wife reminded me of this once when I was applying for a job, which is to do exactly what you said to disclose the fact that in my case, I happen to be blind. But remember that blindness, neuro divergence, disability in general, is a perceived liability, it isn't really a liability. It's a liability that people have created. And so the thing to do is for a person when they disclose is to also be prepared to or come right out and say, and here's why that's a value to you, the employer. And here's what I mean, here's what I bring to you. I did that once when I was applying for a job, and I talked to my wife and we have talked about told the story before but we, we were talking about it. And she said You're a dummy. And I said why? Because I was talking about do I disclose I'm blind, she said, You always said turn perceived liabilities into assets. And when I went off, and I wrote the cover letter, for the resume that I sent, I specifically said, I happen to be blind. And the value is, for me, I've had to sell all my life just to be able to survive without going through the entire detail of it. I finally said at the end of it. So do you want to hire somebody who just comes into the office and sells for eight or 10 hours a day and goes home? Or do you want to hire somebody who truly underst

She has a B.A. in English from the University of Michigan - Flint, and she has been a freelance writer for over 15 years. In that time she has written for nonprofits large and small, as well as healthcare, tech, and marketing companies. She has been the content marketing manager for Virtuous CRM, written a bunch of grants, covered local news for community newspapers and written for national trade journals.She focuses on nonprofits and social good clients because she cares more about causes than widgets. She loves learning about the ways that people are changing the world.Key Takeaways:There's an opportunity in authenticity to build trust with your supporters. There is an impulse that is common in groups to want to protect the image of the organization. However, doing this, you'll miss out on being real and connecting to your people in a genuine way.Simple is good. Include only as many words as you have to say and ditch the filler. Make sure that the time the readers spend on reading your report is worth it.When writing nonprofit stories, think about your audience first and foremost. The report is going to be for them so figure out who those people are. Then, ask yourself how you want them to feel. Start the story from the individual zooming out to the bigger picture and then going back to that individual again.The decisions that we make don't come from what we think but instead come from what we feel. The same is true for philanthropic decisions. In our messages, we always have to keep in mind what we want the readers to feel.“Putting your mistakes out there, or the things that were disappointing, and inviting your supporters into that story shows them that you're not trying to trick them. And I think you can't like you can't buy that kind of authenticity and relationship building. The cost of it is bravery.”“It's annual report time and you're thinking, ‘oh, right, I need quotes and stories, and I need to talk to the program people about what's going on'. You can do that not on annual report time, you can build yourself a little repository of stories you can use for fundraising.”“That's where we make philanthropic decisions. Yes, is with that emotional, or in that emotional space. It's not an analytical space, even though it seems like it should be and we try to reason people into giving.”- Megan DonahueReach out to Megan Donahue at:Website: http://donahuewritingchicago.com/Email: megan@donahuewritingchicago.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megan-donahue-writer Ask for and receive all you want need and deserve without feeling rejected, ineffective, or pushy. Learn to manage your mindset, lead yourself and others more effectively and have the meaningful conversations that drive your most important work.  Get your free starter kit today at  www.theinfluentialnonprofit.comBook your quickie intro call with maryanne here! Connect with Maryanne Dersch: maryanne@courageouscommunication.com 

Join us for this special episode as we continue a series of conversations with the winners of the Osmosis from Elsevier 2022 Raise the Line Faculty Awards which recognize the inspirational educators who are responsible for training future generations of healthcare professionals. Winners were chosen fromover 1,000 nominations received from 377 institutions around the world. The interviews feature testimonials from the students and peers who nominated the eventual winners focusing on how they embody the six Osmosis core values. Today we feature Michael Moore, the overall winner for the Physician Assistant category. Tapping into his deep passion for education and helping students to succeed, Professor Moore has played an integral role in launching two PA training programs in rural Indiana and Michigan. In his conversation with host Michael Carrese, Moore discusses the growing role of physician assistants on the healthcare team, what he loves about interacting with students, and the need for them to prioritize critical thinking skills. "Something that I think we can work on in even the undergrad years is more critical thinking." From PA education and training to day-to-day responsibilities, you'll gain valuable insights into this critically important and growing profession.Mentioned in this episode: www.osmosis.org/faculty-awards