Podcast appearances and mentions of jim well

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2024 21:14

Guest: Jim GarlowMinistry: Well VersedPosition: Co-FounderBook: ReVersed: From Culturally Woke To Biblically AwakeTopic: a Biblical response to the 2024 Election and its potential impactWebsite: wellversedworld.org, reversed.org

elections biblical reversed garlow jim well

Garlow, Jim - Well Versed {ReVersed}

The Occasional Film Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2024 21:14

elections biblical reversed garlow jim well

Episode 202: Playwright and screenwriter Jeffrey Hatcher

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 28, 2024 48:00

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with playwright and screenwriter Jeffrey Hatcher on Columbo, Sherlock Holmes, favorite mysteries and more!LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Jeffrey Hatcher Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.hatcher.3/The Good Liar (Trailer): https://youtu.be/ljKzFGpPHhwMr. Holmes (Trailer): https://youtu.be/0G1lIBgk4PAStage Beauty (Trailer): https://youtu.be/-uc6xEBfdD0Columbo Clips from “Ashes to Ashes”Clip One: https://youtu.be/OCKECiaFsMQClip Two: https://youtu.be/BbO9SDz9FEcClip Three: https://youtu.be/GlNDAVAwMCIEli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTJohn: Can you remember your very first mystery, a movie, book, TV show, play, a mystery that really captured your imagination? Jeffrey: You know, I was thinking about this, and what came to mind was a Disney movie called Emile and the Detectives from 1964. So, I would have been six or seven years old. It's based on a series of German books by Eric Kastner about a young man named Emile and his group of friends who think of themselves as detectives. So, I remember that—I know that might've been the first film. And obviously it's not a play because, you know, little kids don't tend to go to stage thrillers or mysteries and, “Daddy, please take me to Sleuth.But there was a show called Burke's Law that I really loved. Gene Barry played Captain Amos Burke of the Homicide Division in Los Angeles, and he was very rich. That was the bit. The bit was that Captain Burke drove around in a gorgeous Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, and he had a chauffeur. And every mystery was structured classically as a whodunit.In fact, I think every title of every episode was “Who Killed Cock Robin?” “Who Killed Johnny Friendly?” that kind of thing. And they would have a cast of well-known Hollywood actors, so they were all of equal status. Because I always think that's one of the easiest ways to guess the killer is if it's like: Unknown Guy, Unknown Guy, Derek Jacobi, Unknown Guy, Unknown Guy. It's always going to be Derek Jacobi. John: Yeah, it's true. I remember that show. He was really cool. Jim: Well, now I'm going to have to look that up.Jeffrey: It had a great score, and he would gather all of the suspects, you know, at the end of the thing. I think my favorite was when he caught Paul Lynde as a murderer. And, of course, Paul Lynde, you know, kept it very low key when he was dragged off. He did his Alice Ghostly impersonation as he was taken away.John: They did have very similar vocal patterns, those two.Jeffrey: Yep. They're kind of the exact same person. Jim: I never saw them together. John: You might have on Bewitched. Jim: You're probably right.Jeffrey: Well, I might be wrong about this, either Alice Ghostly or Charlotte Ray went to school with Paul Lynde. And Charlotte Ray has that same sound too. You know, kind of warbly thing. Yes. I think they all went to Northwestern in the late 40s and early 50s. So maybe that was a way that they taught actors back then. John: They learned it all from Marion Horne, who had the very same warble in her voice. So, as you got a little older, were there other mysteries that you were attracted to?Jeffrey: Yeah. Luckily, my parents were very liberal about letting me see things that other people probably shouldn't have. I remember late in elementary school, fifth grade or so, I was reading Casino Royale. And one of the teachers said, “Well, you know, most kids, we wouldn't want to have read this, but it's okay if you do.”And I thought, what's that? And I'm so not dangerous; other kids are, well they would be affected oddly by James Bond? But yeah, I, I love spy stuff. You know, The Man from Uncle and The Wild Wild West, all those kind of things. I love James Bond. And very quickly I started reading the major mysteries. I think probably the first big book that I remember, the first novel, was The Hound of the Baskervilles. That's probably an entrance point for a lot of kids. So that's what comes in mind immediately. Jim: I certainly revisit that on—if not yearly basis, at least every few years I will reread The Hound of the Baskervilles. Love that story. That's good. Do you have, Jeffrey, favorite mystery fiction writers?Jeffrey: Oh, sure. But none of them are, you know, bizarre Japanese, Santa Domingo kind of writers that people always pull out of their back pockets to prove how cool they are. I mean, they're the usual suspects. Conan Doyle and Christie and Chandler and Hammett, you know, all of those. John Dickson Carr, all the locked room mysteries, that kind of thing. I can't say that I go very far off in one direction or another to pick up somebody who's completely bizarre. But if you go all the way back, I love reading Wilkie Collins.I've adapted at least one Wilkie Collins, and they read beautifully. You know, terrifically put together, and they've got a lot of blood and thunder to them. I think he called them sensation novels as opposed to mysteries, but they always have some mystery element. And he was, you know, a close friend of Charles Dickens and Dickens said that there were some things that Collins taught him about construction. In those days, they would write their novels in installments for magazines. So, you know, the desire or the need, frankly, to create a cliffhanger at the end of every episode or every chapter seems to have been born then from a capitalist instinct. John: Jeff, I know you studied acting. What inspired the move into playwriting?Jeffrey: I don't think I was a very good actor. I was the kind of actor who always played older, middle aged or older characters in college and high school, like Judge Brack in Hedda Gabler, those kind of people. My dream back in those days was to play Dr. Dysart in Equus and Andrew Wyke in Sleuth. So, I mean, that was my target. And then I moved to New York, and I auditioned for things and casting directors would say, “Well, you know, we actually do have 50 year old actors in New York and we don't need to put white gunk in their hair or anything like that. So, why don't you play your own age, 22 or 23?” And I was not very good at playing 22 or 23. But I'd always done some writing, and a friend of mine, Graham Slayton, who was out at the Playwrights Center here, and we'd gone to college together. He encouraged me to write a play, you know, write one act, and then write a full length. So, I always say this, I think most people go into the theater to be an actor, you know, probably 98%, and then bit by bit, we, you know, we peel off. We either leave the profession completely or we become directors, designers, writers, what have you. So, I don't think it's unnatural what I did. It's very rare to be like a Tom Stoppard who never wanted to act. It's a lot more normal to find the Harold Pinter who, you know, acted a lot in regional theaters in England before he wrote The Caretaker.Jim: Fascinating. Can we talk about Columbo?Jeffrey: Oh, yes, please. Jim: This is where I am so tickled pink for this conversation, because I was a huge and am a huge Peter Falk Columbo fan. I went back and watched the episode Ashes To Ashes, with Patrick McGowan that you created. Tell us how that came about. Jeffrey: I too was a huge fan of Columbo in the 70s. I remember for most of its run, it was on Sunday nights. It was part of that murder mystery wheel with things like Hec Ramsey and McCloud, right? But Columbo was the best of those, obviously. Everything, from the structure—the inverted mystery—to thw guest star of the week. Sometimes it was somebody very big and exciting, like Donald Pleasence or Ruth Gordon, but often it was slightly TV stars on the skids.John: Jack Cassidy, Jim: I was just going to say Jack Cassidy.Jeffrey: But at any rate, yeah, I loved it. I loved it. I remembered in high school, a friend and I doing a parody of Columbo where he played Columbo and I played the murderer of the week. And so many years later, when they rebooted the show in the nineties, my father died and I spent a lot of time at the funeral home with the funeral director. And having nothing to say to the funeral director one day, I said, “Have you got the good stories?”And he told me all these great stories about, you know, bodies that weren't really in the casket and what you can't cremate, et cetera. So, I suddenly had this idea of a Hollywood funeral director to the stars. And, via my agent, I knew Dan Luria, the actor. He's a close friend or was a close friend of Peter's. And so, he was able to take this one-page idea and show it to Peter. And then, one day, I get a phone call and it's, “Uh, hello Jeff, this is Peter Falk calling. I want to talk to you about your idea.” And they flew me out there. It was great fun, because Falk really ran the show. He was the executive producer at that point. He always kind of ran the show. I think he only wrote one episode, the one with Faye Dunaway, but he liked the idea.I spent a lot of time with him, I'd go to his house where he would do his drawings back in the studio and all that. But what he said he liked about it was he liked a new setting, they always liked a murderer and a setting that was special, with clues that are connected to, say, the murderer's profession. So, the Donald Pleasant one about the wine connoisseur and all the clues are about wine. Or the Dick Van Dyke one, where he's a photographer and most of the clues are about photography. So, he really liked that. And he said, “You gotta have that first clue and you gotta have the pop at the end.”So, and we worked on the treatment and then I wrote the screenplay. And then he asked McGoohan if he would do it, and McGoohan said, “Well, if I can direct it too.” And, you know, I've adored McGoohan from, you know, Secret Agent and The Prisoner. I mean, I'd say The Prisoner is like one of my favorite television shows ever. So, the idea that the two of them were going to work together on that script was just, you know, it was incredible. John: Were you able to be there during production at all? Jeffrey: No, I went out there about four times to write, because it took like a year or so. It was a kind of laborious process with ABC and all that, but I didn't go out during the shooting.Occasionally, this was, you know, the days of faxes, I'd get a phone call: “Can you redo something here?” And then I'd fax it out. So, I never met McGoohan. I would only fax with him. But they built this whole Hollywood crematorium thing on the set. And Falk was saying at one point, “I'm getting pushback from Universal that we've got to do all this stuff. We've got to build everything.” And I was saying, “Well, you know, 60 percent of the script takes place there. If you're going to try to find a funeral home like it, you're going to have all that hassle.” And eventually they made the point that, yeah, to build this is going to cost less than searching around Hollywood for the right crematorium, And it had a great cast, you know, it had Richard Libertini and Sally Kellerman, and Rue McClanahan was our murder victim.Jim: I'll tell you every scene that Peter Falk and Mr. McGoohan had together. They looked to me as an actor, like they were having a blast being on together. Jeffrey: They really loved each other. They first met when McGoohan did that episode, By Dawn's Early Light, where he played the head of the military school. It's a terrific episode. It was a great performance. And although their acting styles are completely different, You know, Falk much more, you know, fifties, methody, shambolic. And McGoohan very, you know, his voice cracking, you know, and very affected and brittle. But they really loved each other and they liked to throw each other curveballs.There are things in the, in the show that are ad libs that they throw. There's one bit, I think it's hilarious. It's when Columbo tells the murderer that basically knows he did it, but he doesn't have a way to nail him. And, McGoohan is saying, “So then I suppose you have no case, do you?” And Falk says, “Ah, no, sir, I don't.” And he walks right off camera, you know, like down a hallway. And McGoohan stares off and says, “Have you gone?” And none of that was scripted. Peter just walks off set. And if you watch the episode, they had to dub in McGoohan saying, “Have you gone,” because the crew was laughing at the fact that Peter just strolled away. So McGoohan adlibs that and then they had to cover it later to make sure the sound wasn't screwed up. Jim: Fantastic. John: Kudos to you for that script, because every piece is there. Every clue is there. Everything pays off. It's just it is so tight, and it has that pop at the end that he wanted. It's really an excellent, excellent mystery.Jim: And a terrific closing line. Terrific closing line. Jeffrey: Yeah, that I did right. That was not an ad lib. Jim: It's a fantastic moment. And he, Peter Falk, looks just almost right at the camera and delivers that line as if it's, Hey, check this line out. It was great. Enjoyed every minute of it. Can we, um, can I ask some questions about Sherlock Holmes now?Jeffrey: Oh, yes. Jim: So, I enjoyed immensely Holmes and Watson that I saw a couple summers ago at Park Square. I was completely riveted and had no, absolutely no idea how it was going to pay off or who was who or what. And when it became clear, it was so much fun for me as an audience member. So I know that you have done a number of Holmes adaptations.There's Larry Millet, a St. Paul writer here and I know you adapted him, but as far as I can tell this one, pillar to post was all you. This wasn't an adaptation. You created this out of whole cloth. Am I right on that? Jeffrey: Yes. The, the idea came from doing the Larry Millet one, actually, because Steve Hendrickson was playing Holmes. And on opening night—the day of opening night—he had an aortic aneurysm, which they had to repair. And so, he wasn't able to do the show. And Peter Moore, the director, he went in and played Holmes for a couple of performances. And then I played Holmes for like three performances until Steve could get back. But in the interim, we've sat around saying, “All right, who can we get to play the role for like a week?” And we thought about all of the usual suspects, by which I mean, tall, ascetic looking actors. And everybody was booked, everybody was busy. Nobody could do it. So that's why Peter did it, and then I did it.But it struck me in thinking about casting Holmes, that there are a bunch of actors that you would say, you are a Holmes type. You are Sherlock Holmes. And it suddenly struck me, okay, back in the day, if Holmes were real, if he died—if he'd gone over to the falls of Reichenbach—people probably showed up and say, “Well, I'm Sherlock Holmes.”So, I thought, well, let's take that idea of casting Holmes to its logical conclusion: That a couple of people would come forward and say, “I'm Sherlock Holmes,” and then we'd wrap it together into another mystery. And we're sitting around—Bob Davis was playing Watson. And I said, “So, maybe, they're all in a hospital and Watson has to come to figure out which is which. And Bob said, “Oh, of course, Watson's gonna know which one is Holmes.”And that's what immediately gave me the idea for the twist at the end, why Watson wouldn't know which one was Holmes. So, I'm very grateful whenever an idea comes quickly like that, but it depends on Steve getting sick usually. Jim: Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it. If it's ever staged again anywhere, I will go. There was so much lovely about that show, just in terms of it being a mystery. And I'm a huge Sherlock Holmes fan. I don't want to give too much away in case people are seeing this at some point, but when it starts to be revealed—when Pierce's character starts talking about the reviews that he got in, in the West End—I I almost wet myself with laughter. It was so perfectly delivered and well written. I had just a great time at the theater that night. Jeffrey: It's one of those things where, well, you know how it is. You get an idea for something, and you pray to God that nobody else has done it. And I couldn't think of anybody having done this bit. I mean, some people have joked and said, it's kind of To Tell the Truth, isn't it? Because you have three people who come on and say, “I'm Sherlock Holmes.” “I'm Sherlock Holmes.” “I'm Sherlock Holmes.” Now surely somebody has done this before, but Nobody had. Jim: Well, it's wonderful. John: It's all in the timing. So, what is the, what's the hardest part about adapting Holmes to this stage?Jeffrey: Well, I suppose from a purist point of view‑by which I mean people like the Baker Street Irregulars and other organizations like that, the Norwegian Explorers here in Minnesota‑is can you fit your own‑they always call them pastiches, even if they're not comic‑can you fit your own Holmes pastiche into the canon?People spend a lot of time working out exactly where Holmes and Watson were on any given day between 1878 and 1930. So, one of the nice things about Holmes and Watson was, okay, so we're going to make it take place during the three-year interregnum when Holmes is pretending to be dead. And it works if you fit Holmes and Watson in between The Final Problem and The Adventure of the Empty House, it works. And that's hard to do. I would say, I mean, I really love Larry Millett's book and all that, but I'm sure it doesn't fit, so to speak. But that's up to you to care. If you're not a purist, you can fiddle around any old way you like. But I think it's kind of great to, to, to have the, the BSI types, the Baker Street Irregular types say, “Yes, this clicked into place.”Jim: So that's the most difficult thing. What's the easiest part?Jeffrey: Well, I think it's frankly the language, the dialogue. Somebody pointed out that Holmes is the most dramatically depicted character in history. More than Robin Hood, more than Jesus Christ. There are more actor versions of Holmes than any other fictional character.We've been surrounded by Holmes speak. Either if we've read the books or seen the movies or seen any of the plays for over 140 years. Right. So, in a way, if you're like me, you kind of absorb that language by osmosis. So, for some reason, it's very easy for me to click into the way I think Holmes talks. That very cerebral, very fast, sometimes complicated syntax. That I find probably the easiest part. Working out the plots, you want them to be Holmesian. You don't want them to be plots from, you know, don't want the case to be solved in a way that Sam Spade would, or Philip Marlowe would. And that takes a little bit of work. But for whatever reason, it's the actor in you, it's saying, all right, if you have to ad lib or improv your way of Sherlock Holmes this afternoon, you know, you'd be able to do it, right? I mean, he really has permeated our culture, no matter who the actor is.Jim: Speaking of great actors that have played Sherlock Holmes, you adapted a movie that Ian McKellen played, and I just watched it recently in preparation for this interview.Having not seen it before, I was riveted by it. His performance is terrific and heartbreaking at the same time. Can we talk about that? How did you come to that project? And just give us everything.Jeffrey: Well, it's based on a book called A Slight Trick of the Mind by Mitch Cullen, and it's about a very old Sherlock Holmes in Surrey, tending to his bees, as people in Holmesland know that he retired to do. And it involves a couple of cases, one in Japan and one about 20 years earlier in his life that he's trying to remember. And it also has to do with his relationship with his housekeeper and the housekeeper's son. The book was given to me by Anne Carey, the producer, and I worked on it probably off and on for about five years.A lot of time was spent talking about casting, because you had to have somebody play very old. I remember I went to meet with Ralph Fiennes once because we thought, well, Ralph Fiennes could play him at his own age,‑then probably his forties‑and with makeup in the nineties.And Ralph said‑Ralph was in another film that I'd done‑and he said, “Oh, I don't wear all that makeup. That's just far too much.” And I said, “Well, you did in Harry Potter and The English Patient, you kind of looked like a melted candle.” And he said, “Yes, and I don't want to do that again.” So, we always had a very short list of actors, probably like six actors in the whole world And McKellen was one of them and we waited for him to become available And yeah, he was terrific. I'll tell you one funny story: One day, he had a lot of prosthetics, not a lot, but enough. He wanted to build up his cheekbones and his nose a bit. He wanted a bit, he thought his own nose was a bit too potatoish. So, he wanted a more Roman nose. So, he was taking a nap one day between takes. And they brought him in, said, “Ian, it's time for you to do the, this scene,” and he'd been sleeping, I guess, on one side, and his fake cheek and his nose had moved up his face. But he hadn't looked in the mirror, and he didn't know. So he came on and said, “Very well, I'm all ready to go.” And it was like Quasimodo.It's like 5:52 and they're supposed to stop shooting at six. And there was a mad panic of, Fix Ian's face! Get that cheekbone back where it's supposed to be! Knock that nose into place! A six o'clock, we go into overtime!” But it was very funny that he hadn't noticed it. You kind of think you'd feel if your own nose or cheekbone had been crushed, but of course it was a makeup. So, he didn't feel anything. Jim: This is just the, uh, the actor fan boy in me. I'm an enormous fan of his work straight across the board. Did you have much interaction with him and what kind of fella is he just in general?Jeffrey: He's a hoot. Bill Condon, the director, said, “Ian is kind of methody. So, when you see him on set, he'll be very decorous, you know, he'll be kind of like Sherlock Holmes.” And it was true, he goes, “Oh, Jeffrey Hatcher, it's very good to meet you.” And he was kind of slow talking, all that. Ian was like 72 then, so he wasn't that old. But then when it was all over, they were doing all those--remember those ice Dumps, where people dump a tub of ice on you? You have these challenges? A the end of shooting, they had this challenge, and Ian comes out in short shorts, and a bunch of ballet dancers surrounds him. And he's like, “Alright, everyone, let's do the ice challenge.” And, he turned into this bright dancer. He's kind of a gay poster boy, you know, ever since he was one of the most famous coming out of the last 20 some years. So, you know, he was suddenly bright and splashy and, you know, all that old stuff dropped away. He has all of his headgear at his house and his townhouse. He had a party for us at the end of shooting. And so, there's a Gandalf's weird hat and there's Magneto's helmet, you know, along with top hats and things like that. And they're all kind of lined up there. And then people in the crew would say, can I take a picture of you as Gandalf? “Well, why, of course,” and he does all that stuff. So no, he's wonderful. Jim: You do a very good impression as well. That was great. Now, how did you come to the project, The Good Liar, which again, I watched in preparation for this and was mesmerized by the whole thing, especially the mystery part of it, the ending, it was brilliant.How did you come to that project?Jeffrey: Well, again, it was a book and Warner Brothers had the rights to it. And because Bill and I had worked on Mr. Holmes--Bill Condon--Bill was attached to direct. And so I went in to talk about how to adapt it.This is kind of odd. It's again based in McKellen. In the meeting room at Warner Brothers, there was a life size version of Ian as Gandalf done in Legos. So, it was always, it'll be Ian McKellen and somebody in The Good Liar. Ian as the con man. And that one kind of moved very quickly, because something changed in Bill Condon's schedule. Then they asked Helen Mirren, and she said yes very quickly.And it's a very interesting book, but it had to be condensed rather a lot. There's a lot of flashbacks and going back and forth in time. And we all decided that the main story had to be about this one con that had a weird connection to the past. So, a lot of that kind of adaptation work is deciding what not to include, so you can't really be completely faithful to a book that way. But I do take the point with certain books. When my son was young, he'd go to a Harry Potter movie, and he'd get all pissed off. Pissed off because he'd say Dobby the Elf did a lot more in the book.But if it's a book that's not quite so well-known—The Good Liar isn't a terribly well-known book, nor was A Slight Trick of the Mind--you're able to have a lot more room to play. Jim: It's a very twisty story. Now that you're talking about the book, I'll probably have to go get the book and read it just for comparison. But what I saw on the screen, how did you keep it--because it was very clear at the end--it hits you like a freight train when it all sort of unravels and you start seeing all of these things. How did you keep that so clear for an audience? Because I'll admit, I'm not a huge mystery guy, and I'm not the brightest human, and yet I was able to follow that story completely.Jeffrey: Well, again, I think it's mostly about cutting things, I'm sure. And there are various versions of the script where there are a lot of other details. There's probably too much of one thing or another. And then of course, you know, you get in the editing room and you lose a couple of scenes too. These kinds of things are very tricky. I'm not sure that we were entirely successful in doing it, because you say, which is more important, surprise or suspense? Hitchcock used to have that line about, suspense is knowing there's a bomb under the table. And you watch the characters gather at the table. As opposed to simply having a bomb blow up and you didn't know about it.So, we often went back and forth about Should we reveal that the Helen Mirren character knows that Ian's character is doing something bad? Or do we try to keep it a secret until the end? But do you risk the audience getting ahead of you? I don't mind if the audience is slightly ahead. You know, it's that feeling you get in the theater where there's a reveal and you hear a couple of people say, “Oh, I knew it and they guessed it may be a minute before. But you don't want to get to the point where the audience is, you know, 20 minutes or a half an hour ahead of you.Jim: I certainly was not, I was not in any way. It unfolded perfectly for me in terms of it being a mystery and how it paid off. And Helen Mirren was brilliant. In fact, for a long time during it, I thought they were dueling con men, the way it was set up in the beginning where they were both entering their information and altering facts about themselves.I thought, “Oh, well, they're both con men and, and now we're going to see who is the better con man in the end.” And so. when it paid off. In a way different sort of way, it was terrific for me. Absolutely. Jeffrey: Well, and I thank you. But in a way, they were both con men. Jim: Yes, yes. But she wasn't a professional con man.Jeffrey: She wasn't just out to steal the money from him. She was out for something else. She was out for vengeance. Jim: Yes. Very good. Very, if you haven't seen it, The Good Liar folks, don't wait. I got it on Amazon prime and so can you.Jeffrey: I watched them do a scene, I was over there for about five days during the shooting.And watching the two of them work together was just unbelievable. The textures, the tones, the little lifts of the eyebrow, the shading on one word versus another. Just wonderful, wonderful stuff. Jim: Yeah. I will say I am a huge Marvel Cinematic Universe fan along with my son. We came to those together and I'm a big fan of that sort of movie. So I was delighted by this, because it was such a taut story. And I was involved in every second of what was going on and couldn't quite tell who the good guys were and who the bad guys were and how is this going to work and who's working with who?And it was great. And in my head, I was comparing my love for that sort of big blow it up with rayguns story to this very cerebral, internal. And I loved it, I guess is what I'm saying. And, I am, I think, as close to middle America as you're going to find in terms of a moviegoer. And I thought it was just dynamite. Jeffrey: It was very successful during the pandemic--so many things were when people were streaming--but it was weirdly successful when it hit Amazon or Netflix or whatever it was. And, I think you don't have to be British to understand two elderly people trying to find a relationship. And then it turns out that they both have reasons to hate and kill each other. But nonetheless, there is still a relationship there. So, I pictured a lot of lonely people watching The Good Liar and saying, “Yeah, I'd hang out with Ian McKellen, even if he did steal all my money.” John: Well, speaking of movies, I am occasionally handed notes here while we're live on the air from my wife. And she wants you to just say something about the adaptation you did of your play, Stage Beauty, and what that process was like and how, how that process went.Jeffrey: That was terrific because, primarily Richard Eyre--the director who used to run the National Theater and all that--because he's a theater man and the play's about theater. I love working with Bill Condon and I've loved working with Lassa Hallstrom and other people, but Richard was the first person to direct a film of any of my stuff. And he would call me up and say, “Well, we're thinking of offering it to Claire Danes.” or we're thinking…And usually you just hear later, Oh, somebody else got this role. But the relationship was more like a theater director and a playwright. I was there on set for rehearsals and all that.Which I haven't in the others. No, it was a wonderful experience, but I think primarily because the, the culture of theater saturated the process of making it and the process of rehearsing it and—again--his level of respect. It's different in Hollywood, everybody's very polite, they know they can fire you and you know, they can fire you and they're going to have somebody else write the dialogue if you're not going to do it, or if you don't do it well enough. In the theater, we just don't do that. It's a different world, a different culture, different kind of contracts too. But Richard really made that wonderful. And again, the cast that he put together: Billy Crudup and Claire and Rupert Everett and Edward Fox and Richard Griffiths. I remember one day when I was about to fly home, I told Richard Griffiths what a fan Evan-- my son, Evan--was of him in the Harry Potter movie. And he made his wife drive an hour to come to Shepperton with a photograph of him as Mr. Dursley that he could autograph for my son. John: Well, speaking of stage and adaptations, before we go into our lightning round here, you did two recent adaptations of existing thrillers--not necessarily mysteries, but thrillers--one of which Hitchcock made into a movie, which are Dial M for Murder and Wait Until Dark. And I'm just wondering what was that process for you? Why changes need to be made? And what kind of changes did you make?Jeffrey: Well, in both cases, I think you could argue that no, changes don't need to be made. They're wildly successful plays by Frederick Knott, and they've been successful for, you know, alternately 70 or 60 years.But in both cases, I got a call from a director or an artistic director saying, “We'd like to do it, but we'd like to change this or that.” And I'm a huge fan of Frederick Knott. He put things together beautifully. The intricacies of Dial M for Murder, you don't want to screw around with. And there are things in Wait Until Dark having to do just with the way he describes the set, you don't want to change anything or else the rather famous ending won't work. But in both cases, the women are probably not the most well drawn characters that he ever came up with. And Wait Until Dark, oddly, they're in a Greenwich Village apartment, but it always feels like they're really in Westchester or in Terre Haute, Indiana. It doesn't feel like you're in Greenwich Village in the 60s, especially not in the movie version with Audrey Hepburn. So, the director, Matt Shackman, said, why don't we throw it back into the 40s and see if we can have fun with that. And so it played out: The whole war and noir setting allowed me to play around with who the main character was. And I know this is a cliche to say, well, you know, can we find more agency for female characters in old plays or old films? But in a sense, it's true, because if you're going to ask an actress to play blind for two hours a night for a couple of months, it can't just be, I'm a blind victim. And I got lucky and killed the guy. You've got a somewhat better dialogue and maybe some other twists and turns. nSo that's what we did with Wait Until Dark. And then at The Old Globe, Barry Edelstein said, “well, you did Wait Until Dark. What about Dial? And I said, “Well, I don't think we can update it, because nothing will work. You know, the phones, the keys. And he said, “No, I'll keep it, keep it in the fifties. But what else could you What else could you do with the lover?”And he suggested--so I credit Barry on this--why don't you turn the lover played by Robert Cummings in the movie into a woman and make it a lesbian relationship? And that really opened all sorts of doors. It made the relationship scarier, something that you really want to keep a secret, 1953. And I was luckily able to find a couple of other plot twists that didn't interfere with any of Knott's original plot.So, in both cases, I think it's like you go into a watch. And the watch works great, but you want the watch to have a different appearance and a different feel when you put it on and tick a little differently. John: We've kept you for a way long time. So, let's do this as a speed round. And I know that these questions are the sorts that will change from day to day for some people, but I thought each of us could talk about our favorite mysteries in four different mediums. So, Jeff, your favorite mystery novel”Jeffrey: And Then There Were None. That's an easy one for me. John: That is. Jim, do you have one?Jim: Yeah, yeah, I don't read a lot of mysteries. I really enjoyed a Stephen King book called Mr. Mercedes, which was a cat and mouse game, and I enjoyed that quite a bit. That's only top of mind because I finished it recently.John: That counts. Jim: Does it? John: Yeah. That'll count. Jim: You're going to find that I am so middle America in my answers. John: That's okay. Mine is--I'm going to cheat a little bit and do a short story--which the original Don't Look Now that Daphne du Murier wrote, because as a mystery, it ties itself up. Like I said earlier, I like stuff that ties up right at the end. And it literally is in the last two or three sentences of that short story where everything falls into place. Jeff, your favorite mystery play? I can be one of yours if you want. Jeffrey: It's a battle between Sleuth or Dial M for Murder. Maybe Sleuth because I always wanted to be in it, but it's probably Dial M. But it's also followed up very quickly by Death Trap, which is a great comedy-mystery-thriller. It's kind of a post-modern, Meta play, but it's a play about the play you're watching. John: Excellent choices. My choice is Sleuth. You did have a chance to be in Sleuth because when I directed it, you're the first person I asked. But your schedule wouldn't let you do it. But you would have been a fantastic Andrew Wyke. I'm sorry our timing didn't work on that. Jeffrey: And you got a terrific Andrew in Julian Bailey, but if you wanted to do it again, I'm available. John: Jim, you hear that? Jim: I did hear that. Yes, I did hear that. John: Jim, do you have a favorite mystery play?Jim: You know, it's gonna sound like I'm sucking up, but I don't see a lot of mystery plays. There was a version of Gaslight that I saw with Jim Stoll as the lead. And he was terrific.But I so thoroughly enjoyed Holmes and Watson and would love the opportunity to see that a second time. I saw it so late in the run and it was so sold out that there was no coming back at that point to see it again. But I would love to see it a second time and think to myself, well, now that you know what you know, is it all there? Because my belief is it is all there. John: Yeah. Okay. Jeff, your favorite TV mystery?Jeffrey: Oh, Columbo. That's easy. Columbo.John: I'm gonna go with Poker Face, just because the pace on Poker Face is so much faster than Columbo, even though it's clearly based on Columbo. Jim, a favorite TV mystery?Jim: The Rockford Files, hands down. John: Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Last question all around. Jeff, your favorite mystery movie? Jeffrey: Laura. Jim: Ah, good one. John: I'm going to go with The Last of Sheila. If you haven't seen The Last of Sheila, it's a terrific mystery directed by Herbert Ross, written by Stephen Sondheim and Anthony Perkins. Fun little Stephen Sondheim trivia. The character of Andrew Wyke and his house were based on Stephen Sondheim. Jeffrey: Sondheim's townhouse has been for sale recently. I don't know if somebody bought it, but for a cool seven point something million, you're going to get it. John: All right. Let's maybe pool our money. Jim, your favorite mystery movie.Jim: I'm walking into the lion's den here with this one. Jeffrey, I hope this is okay, but I really enjoyed the Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes movies. And I revisit the second one in that series on a fairly regular basis, The Game of Shadows. I thought I enjoyed that a lot. Your thoughts on those movies quickly? Jeffrey: My only feeling about those is that I felt they were trying a little too hard not to do some of the traditional stuff. I got it, you know, like no deer stalker, that kind of thing. But I thought it was just trying a tad too hard to be You know, everybody's very good at Kung Fu, that kind of thing.Jim: Yes. And it's Sherlock Holmes as a superhero, which, uh, appeals to me. Jeffrey: I know the producer of those, and I know Guy Ritchie a little bit. And, I know they're still trying to get out a third one. Jim: Well, I hope they do. I really hope they do. Cause I enjoyed that version of Sherlock Holmes quite a bit. I thought it was funny and all of the clues were there and it paid off in the end as a mystery, but fun all along the road.Jeffrey: And the main thing they got right was the Holmes and Watson relationship, which, you know, as anybody will tell you, you can get a lot of things wrong, but get that right and you're more than two thirds there.

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Building Cybersecurity Robustness in Pipeline Operations Podcast

@BEERISAC: CPS/ICS Security Podcast Playlist

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 1, 2024 17:56

Podcast: Emerson Automation Experts (LS 23 · TOP 10% what is this?)Episode: Building Cybersecurity Robustness in Pipeline Operations PodcastPub date: 2024-07-25Manufacturers and producers across all industries know the challenges in keeping their operations cyber-secure. Industries such as pipeline transportation and electrical & gas distribution networks face additional challenges in the wide geographic spread of their operations and the need for reliance on public communications networks. In this podcast, I'm joined by Emerson cybersecurity expert Steve Hill to discuss these additional challenges and ways the companies in these industries, suppliers, and federal regulators are collaborating to develop and implement best practices for strong cyber resiliency. Give the podcast a listen and visit the SCADA Solutions & Software for Energy Logistics on Emerson.com and the AspenTech Digital Grid Management page for methods and solutions to improve your cybersecurity defenses and ongoing programs. Transcript Jim: Hi, everyone. This is Jim Cahill with another “Emerson Automation Experts” podcast. Pipelines cover a wide geographic area and require continuous monitoring for safe, efficient, and reliable operations. Today, I’m joined by Steve Hill to discuss the challenges pipeline operators face in keeping their pipeline networks cybersecure. Welcome to the podcast, Steve. Steve: Thanks, Jim. Pleasure to be here. Jim: Well, it’s great to have you. I guess, let’s get started by asking you to share your background and path to your current role here with us at Emerson. Steve: Thanks, yeah. I’ve been in the automation and SCADA industry for about 40 years, started on the hardware design and communications that then moved over to software. And it’s nearly 20 years I’ve been with Emerson. I joined as part of the Bristol Babcock acquisition. My main focus now is working in wide-area SCADA as the director of SCADA Solutions for Emerson, and most of that’s working in the oil and gas industry, working with Emerson sales and the engineering teams and our customers as they design systems and products for the industry. And also, alongside that, for the last few years, I’ve been collaborating with CISA. That’s the U.S. government Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency as part of the Joint Cyber Defense Collaborative. Jim: Okay. That’s a nice, varied background. That’s really good for our discussion. So, what exactly do you mean by wide-area SCADA? Steve: That’s a great question. There’s a SCADA system where the software is monitoring equipment across a very wide area. It might be a very large geographic area, like a pipeline or gas, or water distribution network, or perhaps a well field. I mean, some of the systems, for example, I was speaking to a customer last week who is monitoring an entire pipeline across Peru, and yet, their control centers are actually in Mexico. So, to do that kind of thing, the equipment is usually connected via public networks. You know, private networks don’t extend that far, and even the control centers may be widely distributed. And as part of that, compared to in-plant control, there’s an assumption that your communications are clearly not gonna be 100% perfect. You’re gonna lose communications either momentarily, like with cellular networks, and when, for example, like we’ve got in Texas this week, with natural events like hurricanes can cut communications for hours. But because these systems are all critical infrastructure, such as pipelines or electrical distribution, the actual operations, the process, must never be interrupted. Today, we’re talking about cybersecurity, and that same sensitivity is why these systems are now the target to some of the most sophisticated cyberattacks. Jim: Okay, that gives a picture of the breadth of these types of SCADA systems, and you had mentioned you’d work with CISA, the cybersecurity infrastructure defense agency, and the Joint Cyber Defense Collaborative, which I’ll just call JCDC for short. Can you give some more examples on that work? Steve: Yeah. Really, I could give you a bit of background. Probably many of our listeners know that there’s been several successful cyberattacks against critical infrastructure over the last few years. Probably the most famous in the pipeline industry was an attack that’s referred to as the Colonial Pipeline attack. That was actually a criminal ransomware attack that resulted in gasoline and jet fuel shortage across the Eastern U.S. for several days, and that was criminals basically trying to get money. And it was almost a random attack, it wasn’t targeted. However, there have been actual state-sponsored attacks, and probably the one that was most successful was prior to the Russian military attack against Ukraine. They actually instituted several successful cyberattacks against the Ukrainian power grid. And very concerning is, in recent months, the U.S. infrastructure, including pipelines, have been successfully infiltrated by a group that are called Volt Typhoon, who are thought to be from the People’s Republic of China. So JCDC and CISA are working hard to really counter and protect against these threats. Jim: Wow. Well, that’s clearly a huge concern. What is the JCDC doing to address these challenges? Steve: Well, in 2023, so last year, JCDC facilitated the development of something called the Pipeline Reference Architecture. Basically, Emerson, alongside other industry vendors and also pipeline operators, participated in the development of this Pipeline Reference Architecture, which I’ll refer to as the PRA. It’s a fairly short document that outlines the design and operating principles for SCADA systems in the pipeline industry. And one thing the government is keen to point out, it’s not a regulatory document, but it does set out the best principles and is intended as guidance for the industry. Really, they want to work with the industry to come up with best practices. Jim: Well, it sounds like this PRA is another set of standards to address cybersecurity. Why is another document needed in the industry where a bunch of standards exist now? Steve: Yeah, that’s a question I and other members get asked quite a lot. The main reason is that wide-area SCADA represents a very different set of challenges to traditional SCADA, which we refer to as inside the wire. So for example, a refinery or a manufacturing plant, everything is in one location. But as I mentioned before, wide-area SCADA has got a very wide displacement, physically. It also actually has a lot of remote field workers. There may be folks working on that system hundreds of miles from base, and you’re also using communications networks that are not even owned or operated by the owners of the pipeline. Though this PRA is really intended for the pipeline industry, clearly, it’s applicable to almost any wide-area SCADA, that’s water or electrical industry as well. Jim: Okay, that makes sense. So those are definitely challenges that don’t exist for more automation systems, as you say, inside the wire. Tell us more about how the PRA addresses these. Steve: Well, the big thing is segmentation, basically, taking the network and splitting it into different levels that represent different areas of the operation. For example, the internet would be what’s referred to as level zero, and moving all the way down to the bottom of the network, that’s level nine. And the levels in between that represent different levels of trust. Now, those who are familiar with cybersecurity and SCADA are probably familiar with something that is called the Purdue model, which I think first came out in the late 1980s, and that also splits up SCADA and control networks and actually business networks into different levels. However, when that came out, the internet was in its infancy. No one would ever have used the internet or even really public IP networks for their connectivity. So it doesn’t really take into account many of the things we take for granted today in these systems. So the PRA is intended to expand and take into account the reality that, for example, some of this critical data will actually be transiting across a public network, right? And in order to achieve that with this segmentation, we’re using a concept called Defense in Depth, right? And as you go down the different levels of the network, the assumption is you can trust each item on that network better. So, for example, on the internet, you don’t trust anything, but when you get down, let’s say, to the communications between an RTU [remote terminal unit] and a gas chromatograph on a local serial link, you might completely trust that. Now, it’s interesting, although that’s part of the PRA model, that does actually conflict with a security concept called Zero Trust, which is something that Emerson has really based our products on. But both zero trust and defense in depth are valid. Jim: Now, you had mentioned a couple of concepts I’d like to explore a little bit more in there, and let’s start with zero trust. Can you explain that concept to us? Steve: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Zero trust is a concept where any piece of equipment or software should trust nothing. Don’t trust anything else on the network, don’t trust the network to be safe, and it should not rely on anything else for protection. And historically, SCADA was protected, for example, by firewalls. You would use insecure products that were known to not be secure because they were developed perhaps 20 or 30 years ago and hide them behind firewalls, and that’s really how we’ve handled security today. But there’s a realization you can’t do that. So we now need to design products so that they don’t trust anything. But the reality is many of our customers, Emerson’s customers and pipeline operators, have devices that were installed perhaps 30 years ago. That’s the typical lifespan of some RTUs and controllers in this industry. So as a result, when you get down to the lower levels of the network, zero trust doesn’t work. So you do have to have levels of additional protection. So for example, if you had a Modbus link, which is basically insecure almost by design, that should be protected by additional levels of firewalls and so on. But if you’re designing a modern product, it should be designed so it doesn’t rely on anything else. And that’s the concept of zero trust. Jim: Okay, got it. So don’t trust anything. Everything must be proven out. And the other concept you talked about was defense in depth. So, what does that mean? Steve: Well, the phrase is most commonly used where we’re talking about a network with multiple levels in. So when you come from, for example, the internet into your business network, you would have a set of firewalls and what’s called the demilitarized zone. And then when you go from your business network down to your controls network, you’d have another set of firewalls. So it’s multiple levels of protection. However, that same concept should be used actually within products as well. And, in fact, Emerson takes that very seriously with our secure development lifecycle certifications, IEC 62443, and how we design those products. Jim: Well, that’s good. As you get those two and as you put in more modern technology, that it complies and has that cybersecurity built into mind there. So, can you give us an example of how it’s built in? Steve: Yeah. That great one. If I take, for example, the Emerson FB3000 RTU, that’s a flow computer and a controller device that’s designed specifically for the oil and gas industry, especially for pipelines, an obvious concern is that that may be attacked externally to modify the firmware. Now, at the first level, the RTU itself has secure protocols. It uses something called DNP3, which would, in theory, provide access to the device. But then the firmware, when we issue new firmware, we put it on a website so we have protection of the website, we also publish a hash, which is basically a unique key that the customer downloading the firmware can check. It hasn’t been modified by anyone attacking the website. But then, when they actually put it into the RTU, so they’re updating firmware, the RTU will check that that firmware was developed by Emerson and was intended for that device. It does that by certifying certificates on the load. Now, once it’s in the device and it’s running in the field, you might say, “Well, the task is done,” but there’s an additional level of protection. It will continually and on boot, check that firmware, make sure the certificate still matches, it’s not being changed. And if it has been changed, it will actually revert to a known good factory firmware that’s basically embedded in the device. So you can see that there’s really five or six different things all checking and ensuring that firmware in that device was not compromised. So basically, multiple levels within the device, and in addition, there’s multiple levels on the network. So the bad guys have to get through a lot of different levels to damage or compromise the device. And we’re trying to do that with everything we design today. Jim: Yeah. And with modern cryptography and making any change completely will change that hash and everything and make it impossible to slip something in without it being noticed. So that’s really a nice thing. Steve: Yeah. And the fact that even if it detects it, it then goes back to factory firmware, which may be a slightly older version, but your operation will keep running. It will keep controlling, which is a very nice feature. Jim: Yeah, that’s a great example there. I guess, going back to the PRA, what else does it include other than the segmentation that you discussed? Steve: There’s about 10 high-level principles that cover aspects of the design and operation of the SCADA system. And for each of these, there’s various examples and guidance on how to actually follow the principle in a real-world system. So, for example, there was a whole section on how to manage third-party devices in the contractors, because on a pipeline system, you’re almost certainly gonna have, for example, engineers from Emerson coming in from third parties. So it gives examples on the real-world aspects of operating the system. Jim: Are there other examples from it you can share? Steve: Yeah. One important one is when you’re designing the system, you should identify and document all of the different data flows that occur. And that’s, when I say data flow, communications or conversation between different pieces of equipment. So, for example, this RTU may communicate with that SCADA platform on this particular machine and may communicate with a measurement system on another machine, document all of those data flows, and then deny all other data flows by default. Then, after the system is running, continually monitor it passively. And if you see an additional communication, say, between two pieces of equipment that normally never communicated or didn’t communicate on a particular IP socket, flag that immediately, because it may be something that’s going on that was unexpected. It certainly was outside the original design of the system. Jim: This has been very educational. Thank you so much, Steve. Where can our listeners go to learn more? Steve: Well, really a couple of places. If you go to the CISA blog, which is at www.cisa.gov/news-events, there’s details there. The actual PRA was published on March the 26th of this year. And also, if you want to discover more about Emerson’s involvement in wide-area SCADA and the cybersecurity associated with it, if you go to Emerson.com/SCADAforEnergy, you’ll find some information there. Jim: Okay, great. And I’ll add some links to that and to some of the other things we discussed in the transcript. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Steve. Steve: Not a problem. It’s a pleasure. -End of transcript-The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Emerson Team, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.

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Episode 120: Film Historian Daniel Titley on the classic lost film, “London After Midnight.”

The Occasional Film Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 10, 2024 54:06

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with the writer of a great new book, “London After Midnight: The Lost Film,” a book about the classic lost Lon Chaney film.LINKS A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Daniel's Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/p/London-After-Midnight-The-Lost-Film-100075993768254/Buy the Book “London After Midnight: The Lost Film”: https://www.amazon.com/London-After-Midnight-Lost-Film/dp/1399939890Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTJohn: So, Daniel, when did you first become aware of London After Midnight? Daniel: I was about seven years old when I first stumbled into Lon Chaney through my love of all things Universal horror, and just that whole plethora of characters and actors that you just knew by name, but hadn't necessarily seen away from the many still photographs of Frankenstein, Dracula, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And the Phantom was the one to really spark my interest. But this was prior to eBay. I couldn't see the film of Lon Chaney's Phantom of the Opera for a year. So, I kind of had the ultimate build to books and documentaries, just teasing me, teasing me all the time. And when I eventually did watch a few documentaries, the one thing that they all had in common was the name Lon Chaney. I just thought I need to learn more about this character Lon Chaney, because he just found someone of superhuman proportions just who have done all of these crazy diverse characters. And, that's where London After Midnight eventually peeked out at me and, occupied a separate interest as all the Chaney characterizations do.John: So how did you get into the Universal films? Were you watching them on VHS? Were they on tv? Did the DVDs happen by then?Daniel: I was still in the VHS days. My dad is a real big fan of all this as well. So he first saw Bela Lugosi's Dracula, on TV when he was a kid. And prior to me being born he had amassed a huge VHS collection and a lot of those had Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Henry Hull, Claude Rains, Vincent Price, what have you.And a lot of them were dedicated to Universal horrors. And as a young curious kid, my eyes eventually crossed these beautiful cases and I really wanted to watch them. I think my first one I ever watched was The Mummy's Tomb or Curse of the Mummy. And it's just grown ever since, really.John: You're starting at the lesser end of the Universal monsters. It's like someone's starting the Marx Brothers at The Big Store and going, "oh, these are great. I wonder if there's anything better?" Jim: Well, I kinda like the fact that you have come by this fascination, honestly, as my father would say. You sort of inherited the family business, if you will. The book is great. The book is just great. And I'll be honest, I had no, except for recording the novel that John wrote, I really had no frame of reference for London after Midnight.John: Well, Jim, were you a monster guy? Were you a Universal Monster kid?Jim: Oh yeah. I mean, I had all the models. I love all of that, and certainly knew about Lon Chaney as the Phantom of the Opera, as The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I knew he was the man with a thousand faces. I knew he, when he died, he wrote JR. on his makeup kit and gave it to his kid. So, I knew stuff. But London after Midnight I didn't know at all, except for the sort of iconic makeup and that image, which I was familiar with. What was the inspiration for you in terms of writing this book?Daniel: Like you say, I really had no immediate go-to reference for London after Midnight, away from one or two images in a book. Really clearly they were very impactful images of Chaney, skulking around the old haunted mansion with Edna Tichenor by his side with the lantern, the eyes, the teeth, the cloak, the top hat, the webs, everything. Pretty much everything that embodies a good atmospheric horror movie, but obviously we couldn't see it.So that is all its fangs had deepened itself into my bloodstream at that point, just like, why is it lost? Why can't I see it? And again, the term lost film was an alien concept to me at a young age. I've always been a very curious child. Anything that I don't know or understand that much, even things I do understand that well, I always have to try to find out more, 'cause I just can't accept that it's like a bookend process. It begins and then it ends. And that was the thing with London after Midnight. Everything I found in books or in little interviews, they were just all a bit too brief. And I just thought there has to be a deeper history here, as there are with many of the greatest movies of all time. But same with the movies that are more obscure. There is a full history there somewhere because, 'cause a film takes months to a year to complete.It was definitely a good challenge for me. When we first had our first home computer, it was one of those very few early subjects I was typing in like crazy to try to find out everything that I could. And, that all incubated in my little filing cabinet, which I was able to call upon years later.Some things which were redundant, some things which I had the only links to that I had printed off in advance quite, sensibly so, but then there were certain things that just had lots of question marks to me. Like, what year did the film perish? How did it perish? The people who saw the film originally?And unlike a lot of Chaney films, which have been covered in immense detail, London after Midnight, considering it's the most famous of all lost films, still for me, had major holes in it that I just, really wanted to know the answers to. A lot of those answers, eventually, I found, even people who knew and institutions that knew information to key events like famous MGM Fire, they were hard pressed to connect anything up, in regards to the film. It was like a jigsaw puzzle. I had all these amazing facts. However, none of them kind of made sense with each other.My favorite thing is researching and finding the outcomes to these things. So that's originally what spiraled me into the storm of crafting this, initial dissertation that I set myself, which eventually became so large. I had to do it as a book despite, I'd always wanted to do a book as a kid.When you see people that you idolize for some reason, you just want to write a book on them. Despite, there had been several books on Lon Chaney. But I just always knew from my childhood that I always wanted to contribute a printed volume either on Chaney or a particular film, and London after Midnight seemed to present the opportunity to me.I really just didn't want it to be a rehash of everything that we had seen before or read before in other accounts or in the Famous Monsters of Filmland Magazine, but just with a new cover. So, I thought I would only do a book if I could really contribute a fresh new perspective on the subject, which I hope hopefully did.John: Oh, you absolutely did. And this is an exhaustive book and a little exhausting. There's a ton of stuff in here. You mentioned Famous Monster of the Filmland, which is where I first saw that image. There's at least one cover of the magazine that used that image. And Forrest Ackerman had some good photos and would use them whenever he could and also would compare them to Mark the Vampire, the remake, partially because I think Carol Borland was still alive and he could interview her. And he talked about that remake quite a bit. But that iconic image that he put on the cover and whenever he could in the magazine-- Jim and I were talking before you came on, Daniel, about in my mind when you think of Lon Chaney, there's three images that come to mind: Phantom of the Opera, Quasimoto, and this one. And I think this one, the Man in the Beaver hat probably is the most iconic of his makeups, because, 'cause it is, it's somehow it got adopted into the culture as this is what you go to when it's a creepy guy walking around. And that's the one that everyone remembers. Do you have any idea, specifically what his process was for making that look, because it, it is I think ultimately a fairly simple design. It's just really clever.Daniel: Yes, it probably does fall into the category of his more simplistic makeups. But, again, Chaney did a lot of things simplistic-- today --were never seen back then in say, 1927. Particularly in the Phantom of the Opera's case in 1925, in which a lot of that makeup today would be done through CG, in terms of trying to eliminate the nose or to make your lips move to express dialogue. Chaney was very fortunate to have lived in the pantomime era, where he didn't have to rely on how his voice would sound, trying to talk through those dentures, in which case the makeup would probably have to have been more tamed to allow audio recorded dialogue to properly come through.But with regards to the beaver hat makeup, he had thin wires that fitted around his eyes to give it a more hypnotic stare. The teeth, which he had constructed by a personal dentist, eventually had a wire attached to the very top that held the corners of his mouth, opening to a nice curved, fixated, almost joker like grin.You can imagine with the monocles around his eyes, he was thankful there probably wasn't that much wind on a closed set, because he probably couldn't have closed his eyes that many times. But a lot of these things become spoken about and detailed over time with mythic status. That he had to have his eyes operated on to achieve the constant widening of his eyelids. Or the teeth -- he could only wear the teeth for certain periods of time before accidentally biting his tongue or his lips, et cetera. But Chaney certainly wasn't a sadist, with himself, with his makeups. He was very professional. Although he did go through undoubtedly a lot of discomfort, especially probably the most, explicit case would be for the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which his whole body is crooked down into a stooped position.But, with London After Midnight, I do highly suspect that the inspiration for that makeup in general came from the Dracula novel. And because MGM had not acquired the rights to the Dracula novel, unlike how Universal acquired the rights of the Hunchback or, more importantly, Phantom of the Opera, by which point Gaston Leroux was still alive.It was just a loose adaptation of Dracula. But nevertheless, when you read the description of Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel, he does bear a similarity to Chaney's vampire, in which it's the long hair, a mouth full of sharp teeth, a ghastly pale palor and just dressed all in black and carries around a lantern.Whereas Bela Lugosi takes extraordinary leaps and turns away from the Stoker novel. But it must have definitely had an impact at the time, enough for MGM to over-market the image of Chaney's vampire, which only appears in the film for probably just under four minutes, compared to his detective disguise, which is the real main character of the film.Although the thing we all wanna see is Cheney moving about as the vampire and what facial expressions he pulled. It's just something that we just want to see because it's Lon Chaney.John: Right. And it makes you wonder if he had lived and had gotten to play Dracula, he kind of boxed himself into a corner, then if he'd already used the look from the book, you wonder what he would've come up with, if Lugosi hadn't done it, and if Chaney had had been our first Dracula.Jim: You know, the other thing that I think of strictly like through my actor filter is here's a guy who -- take Hunchback or Phantom or even this thing -- whatever process he went through to put that makeup on, you know, was hours of work, I'm sure. Hunchback several hours of work to get to that, that he did himself, and then they'd film all day.So, on top of, I mean, I just think that that's like, wow, when you think about today where somebody might go into a makeup chair and have two or three people working on them to get the look they want. Even if it took a few hours, that person is just sitting there getting the makeup done. He's doing all of this, and then turns in a full day, uh, in front of the cameras, which to me is like, wow, that's incredible.Daniel: Definitely, it's like two jobs in one. I imagine for an actor it must be really grueling in adapting to a makeup, especially if it's a heavy makeup where it covers the whole of your head or crushes down your nose, changes your lips, the fumes of chemicals going into your eyes.But then by the end of it, I imagine you are quite exhausted from just your head adapting to that. But then you have to go out and act as well. With Chaney, I suppose he could be more of a perfectionist than take as much time as he wanted within reason. And then once he came to the grueling end of it all, he's actually gotta go out and act countless takes. Probably repair a lot of the makeup as well after, after a couple of takes, certainly with things like the Hunchback or the Phantom of the Opera.John: And, you know, it's not only is he doing the makeup and acting, but in, you know, not so much in London After Midnight, but in Phantom of the Opera, he is quite athletic. When the phantom moves, he really moves. He's not stooped. He's got a lot of energy to him and he's got a makeup on that, unlike the Quasimoto makeup, what he's attempting to do with the phantom is, reductive. He's trying to take things away from his face.Daniel: Mm-hmm.John: And he's using all the tricks he knows and lighting to make that happen, but that means he's gotta hit particular marks for the light to hit it just right. And for you to see that his face is as, you know, skull-like as he made it. When you see him, you know, in London After Midnight as the professor inspector character, he has got a normal full man's face. It's a real face. Much like his son, he had a kind of a full face and what he was able to do with a phantom and take all that away, and be as physical as he was, is just phenomenal. I mean, he was a really, besides the makeup, he was a really good actor.Daniel: Oh, definitely. Jim: I agree with that completely. I kind of in what I watched, I wonder if he was the makeup artist, but not the actor and he did exactly the same makeup on somebody else. And so we had the same image. If those things would've resonated with us the way they do today. I think it had everything to do with who he was and his abilities in addition to the incredible makeup. He was just a tremendous performer.Daniel: Absolutely. He was a true multitasker. In his early days of theater, he was not only an actor, but he was a choreographer. He had a lot of jobs behind the scenes as well. Even when he had become a star in his own time, he would still help actors find the character within them. like Norma Sheera, et cetera. People who were kind of new to the movie making scene and the directors didn't really have that much patience with young actors or actresses. Whereas Chaney, because of his clout in the industry, no one really interfered with Chaney's authority on set. But he would really help actors find the character, find the emotion, 'cause it was just all about how well you translate it over for the audience, as opposed to the actor feeling a certain way that convinces themselves that they're the character. Chaney always tried to get the emotions across to the audience. Patsy Ruth Miller, who played Esemerelda in in the Hunchback, said that Chaney directed the film more than the director actually did.The director was actually even suggested by Chaney. So, Chaney really had his hands everywhere in the making of a film. And Patsy Ruth Miller said the thing that she learned from him was that it's the actress's job to make the audience feel how the character's meant to be feeling, and not necessarily the actor to feel what they should be feeling based on the script and the settings and everything.So I think, that's why Chaney in particular stands out, among all of the actors of his time.John: I think he would've transitioned really well into sound. I think, he had everything necessary to make that transition.Jim: There's one sound picture with him in it, isn't there, doesn't he? Doesn't he play a ventriloquist? John: I believe so.Daniel: Yes, it was a remake of The Unholy Three that he had made in 1925 as Echo the ventriloquist, and the gangster. And yes, by the time MGM had decided to pursue talkies -- also, funny enough, they were one of the last studios to transition to, just because they were the most, one, probably the most dominant studio in all of Hollywood, that they didn't feel the pressure to compete with the burgeoning talkie revolution.So they could afford to take their time, they could release a talkie, but then they could release several silent films and the revenue would still be amazing for the studio. Whereas other studios probably had to conform really quick just because they didn't have the star system, that MGM shamelessly flaunted. And several Chaney films had been transitioned to sound at this point with or without Chaney. But for Chaney himself, because he himself was the special effect, it was guaranteed to be a winner even if it had been an original story that isn't as remembered today strictly because people get to hear the thing that's been denied them for all this time, which is Chaney's voice. And he would've transitioned very easily to talkies is because he had a very rich, deep voice, which, coming from theater, he had to have had, in terms of doing dialogue. He wasn't someone like a lot of younger actors who had started out predominantly in feature films who could only pantomime lines. Chaney actually knew how to deliver dialogue, so it did feel natural and it didn't feel read off the page.And he does about five voices in The Unholy Three. So MGM was truly trying to market, his voice for everything that they could. As Mrs. O'Grady, his natural voice, he imitates a parrot and a girl. And yeah, he really would've flourished in the sound era. Jim: Yeah. John: Any surprises, as it sounds like you were researching this for virtually your whole life, but were there any surprises that you came across, as you really dug in about the film?Daniel: With regards to London after Midnight, the main surprise was undoubtedly the -- probably the star chapter of the whole thing -- which is the nitrate frames from an actual destroyed print of the film itself, which sounds crazy to even being able to say it. But, yeah the nitrate frames themselves presented a quandary of questions that just sent me into a whole nother research mode trying to find out where these impossible images came from, who they belonged to, why they even existed, why they specifically existed.Because, looking for something that, you know, you are told doesn't exist. And then to find it, you kind of think someone is watching over you, planting this stuff as though it's the ultimate tease. To find a foreign movie poster for London After Midnight would be one thing, but to find actual pieces of the lost film itself. It was certainly the most out of body experience I've ever had. Just to find something that I set out to find, but then you find it and you still can't believe that you've actually found it.John: How did you find it?Daniel: I had connections with a few foreign archives who would befriend me and took to my enthusiasm with the silent era, and specifically Chaney and all the stars connected to Chaney films.And, quite early on I was told that there were a few photo albums that had various snippets of silent films from Chaney. They didn't really go into what titles these were, 'cause they were just all a jumble. All I knew is that they came from (garbled) widow. And he had acquired prints of the whole films from various, I suppose, junk stores in Spain.But not being a projectionist, he just purely took them at the face value that he just taken the images and snipping them up and putting them in photo albums, like how you would just do with photographs. And then the rest of the material was sadly discarded by fire. So, all we were left with were these snipped relics, survivors almost to several Chaney lost films. Some of them not lost, but there were films like The Phantom of the Opera in there, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Mockery, The Unknown. But then there were several lost films such as London After Midnight, the Big City, Thunder. And All the Brothers were Valiant, which are mainly other than Thunder are all totally complete lost films.So, to find this little treasure trove, it was just finding out what the images meant and connecting them up, trying to put them in some sort of chronological scholarly order. Grueling, but it was very fun at the same time. And because I had identified myself with all of these surviving production stills from the film -- a lot of them, which formed the basis of the 2002 reconstruction by Turner Classic Movies -- it didn't take me too long to identify what scenes these surviving nitrate frames were from. But there were several frames which had sets that I recognized and costumes that I recognized, but in the photographic stills, they don't occupy the same space at the same time. So, it's like the two separate elements had crossed over. So that left me with a scholarly, question of what I was looking at. I was able to go back and, sort of rectify certain wrongs that have been accepted throughout the sixties as being the original, say, opening to London after Midnight. So I've, been able to disprove a few things that have made the film, I suppose, a bit more puzzling to audiences. Some audiences didn't really get what the plot was to begin with. So, it was nice to actually put a bit more order to the madness finally.John: At what point did you come across the original treatment and the script?Daniel: The treatment and the script, they came from a private collector who had bought them at auction a number of years ago who I was able to thankfully contact, and they still had the two documents in question. I had learned through Philip J Riley's previous books on London after Midnight that he had the two latter drafts of the script, the second edition and the third draft edition.And, again, the question of why and where. I just always wondered where that first draft of the script was, hoping it would contain new scenes, and open new questions for me and to study. And once I've managed to find those two documents, they did present a lot of new, perspectives and material that added to the fuller plot of the original hypnotist scenario, as opposed to the shortened, time efficient London After Midnight film that was ultimately delivered to audiences. So again, it helped to put a little bit more order to the madness.Jim: You found an actual piece of the film that you were able to, somebody got images from it? And then you found the scripts? But the images are terrific and they're all in your book. They came from what exactly?Daniel: The just below 20 images of the film came from originally a distribution print, a Spanish distribution print, from about 1928. Originally, they were on 35 millimeter indicating that they were from the studio and as is with a lot of silent films that have been found in foreign archives.Normally when a film is done with its distribution, it would have to be returned to the original studio to be destroyed, except for the original negative and a studio print, because there is no reason why a studio would need to keep the thousands of prints when they have the pristine copy in their vault. But, in a lot of smaller theater cases, in order to save money on the postage of the shipping, they would just basically declare that they had destroyed the film on the studio's behalf. There was no record system with this stuff and that's how a lot of these films ended up in the basements of old theaters, which are eventually when they closed, the assets were sold off to collectors or traveling showmen. And eventually these films found their ways into archives or again, private collections. Some of which people know what they have.A lot of times they don't know what they have because they're more obsessed with, naturally, more dedicated to preserving the films of their own culture that was shown at the time, as opposed to a foreign American title, which they probably assume they already have a copy of. But it's how a lot of these films get found.And, with the London After Midnight, example, there were the images that I found spanned the entire seven reels, because they came from different points in the film. It wasn't a single strip of film, of a particular scene. Having thankfully the main source that we have for London After Midnight is the cutting continuity, which is the actual film edited down shot for shot, length for length.And it describes, briefly, although descriptive enough, what is actually in each and every single shot of the film. And comparing the single frame images from the film with this document, I was able to identify at what point these frames came from during the film, which again spanned the entire seven reels, indicating that a complete seven reel version of the film had gotten out under the studio system at one point.As is the case, I'm assuming, 'cause these came from the same collection, I'm assuming it was the same with the other lost Chaney films that again, sadly only survive in snippet form.John: It's like somebody was a collector and his wife said, "well, we don't have room for all this. Just take the frames you like and we'll get rid of the rest of it." So, you mentioned in passing the 2002 reconstruction that Turner Classic Movies did using the existing stills. I don't know if they were working from any of the scripts or not. That was the version I originally saw when I was working on writing, those portions of The Misers Dream that mentioned London After Midnight. Based on what you know now, how close is that reconstruction and where do you think they got it right and where'd they get it wrong?Daniel: The 2002, reconstruction, while a very commendable production, it does stray from the original edited film script. Again, the problem that they clearly faced on that production is that there were not enough photographed scenes to convey all the photographed scenes from the film. So what they eventually fell into the trap of doing was having to reuse the same photograph to sometimes convey two separate scenes, sometimes flipping the image to appear on the opposite side of the camera. And, because of the certain lack of stills in certain scenes cases, they had to rewrite them.And sometimes a visual scene had to have been replaced with an inter-title card, merely describing what had happened or describing a certain period in time, as opposed to showing a photograph of what we're meant to be seeing as opposed to just reading. So, they did the best with what they had.But since then, there have been several more images crop up in private collections or in the archives. So, unless a version of the film gets found, it's certainly an endeavor that could be revisited, I think, and either do a new visual reconstruction of sort, or attempt some sort remake of the film even.Jim: That's an idea. John: They certainly have the materials to do that. I've got an odd question. There's one famous image, a still image from the film, showing Chaney as Professor Burke, and he is reaching out to the man in the beaver hat whose back is to us. Is that a promo photo? Spoiler alert, Burke is playing the vampire in the movie. He admits that that's him. So, he never would've met the character. What is the story behind that photo?Daniel: There are actually three photographs depicting that, those characters that you described. There are the two photographs which show Chaney in the Balfor mansion seemingly directing a cloaked, top hatted figure with long hair, with its back towards us. And then there is another photograph of Chaney in the man in the beaver hat disguise with a seemingly twin right beside him outside of a door.Basically the scenes in the film in which Chaney appear to the Hamlin residents, the people who are being preyed upon by the alleged vampires, the scenes where Chaney and the vampire need to coexist in the same space or either appear to be in the same vicinity to affect other characters while at the same time interrogating others, Chaney's character of Burke employs a series of assistants to either dress up as vampires or at certain times dress up as his version of the vampire to parade around and pretend that they are the man in the beaver hat. Those particular shots, though, the vampire was always, photographed from behind rather than the front.The very famous scene, which was the scene that got first got me interested in London After Midnight, in which the maidm played by Polly Moran is in the chair shrieking at Chaney's winged self, hovering over her. It was unfortunate to me to realize that that was actually a flashback scene told from the maid's perspective.And by the end of the film, the maid is revealed to be an informant of Burke, a secret detective also. So, it's really a strong suspension of disbelief has to be employed because the whole scene of Chaney chasing the maid through the house and appearing under the door, that was clearly just the MGMs marketing at work just to show Chaney off in a bizarre makeup with a fantastic costume.Whereas he is predominantly the detective and the scenes where he's not needed to hypnotize a character in the full vampire makeup, he just employs an assistant who parades around in the house as him, all the times with his back turned so that the audience can't latch on as to who the character actually is, 'cause it must have posed quite a fun confusion that how can Chaney be a detective in this room where the maid has just ran from the Vampire, which is also Chaney?John: Yeah, and it doesn't help that the plot is fairly convoluted anyway, and then you add that layer. So, do you think we'll ever see a copy of it? Do you think it's in a basement somewhere?Daniel: I've always personally believed that the film does exist. Not personally out of just an unfounded fanboy wish, but just based on the evidence and examples of other films that have been found throughout time. Metropolis being probably the most prominent case. But, at one point there was nothing on London After Midnight and now there is just short of 20 frames for the film. So, if that can exist currently now in the year 2023, what makes us think that more footage can't be found by, say, 2030? I think with fans, there's such a high expectation that if it's not found in their own lifetime or in their own convenience space of time, it must not exist. There's still a lot of silent lost treasures that just have not been found at all that do exist though. So, with London After Midnight, from a purely realistic standpoint, I've always theorized myself that the film probably does exist in an archive somewhere, but it would probably be a very abridged, foreign condensed version, as opposed to a pristine 35-millimeter print that someone had ripped to safety stock because they knew in the future the film would become the most coveted of all lost films. So, I do believe it does exist. The whole theory of it existing in a private collection and someone's waiting to claim the newfound copyright on it, I think after December of last year, I think it's finally put that theory to rest. I don't think a collector consciously knows they have a copy of it. So, I think it's lost until found personally, but probably within an archive.Jim: Lost until found. That's a great title for a book. I like that a lot. What do you think of the remake, Mark of the Vampire and in your opinion, what does it tell us about, London After Midnight?Daniel: Well, Mark of the Vampire came about again, part of the Sound Revolution. It was one of those because it was Chaney and Todd Browning's most successful film for the studio. And Browning was currently, being held on a tight leash by MGM because of his shocking disaster film Freaks, I suppose they were a little bit nervous about giving him the reign to do what he wanted again. So, looking through their backlog of smash silent hits, London After Midnight seemed the most logical choice to remake, just simply because it was their most, successful collaboration. Had it have been The Unholy Three, I'm sure? Oh no, we already had The Unholy Three, but had it have been another Browning Chaney collaboration, it might have been The Unknown, otherwise. So, I suppose that's why London After Midnight was selected and eventually turned into Mark of the Vampire. The story does not stray too much from London After Midnight, although they seem to complicate it a little bit more by taking the Burke vampire character and turning it this time into three characters played by three different actors, all of which happened to be in cahoots with one another in trying to solve an old murder mystery.It's very atmospherical. You can definitely tell it's got Todd Browning signature on it. It's more pondering with this one why they just did not opt to make a legit, supernatural film, rather than go in the pseudo vampire arena that they pursued in 1927. Where audiences had by now become accustomed to the supernatural with Dracula and Frankenstein in 1931, which no longer relied on a detective trying to find out a certain mystery and has to disguise themselves as a monster.The monster was actually now a real thing in the movies. So I think if Bela Lugosi had been given the chance to have played a real Count Mora as a real vampire, I think it would've been slightly better received as opposed to a dated approach that was clearly now not the fashionable thing to do.I suppose again, because Browning was treading a very thin line with MGM, I suppose he couldn't really stray too far from the original source material. But I find it a very atmospherical film, although I think the story works better as a silent film than it does as a sound film, because there's a lot of silent scenes in that film, away from owls, hooting and armadillos scurrying about and winds. But I do think, based on things like The Cat and The Canary from 1927 and The Last Warning, I just think that detective sleuth with horror overtones serves better to the silent world than it does the sound world away from the legit, supernatural.John: So, if Chaney hadn't died, do you think he would have played Dracula? Do you think he would've been in Freaks? Would Freaks have been more normalized because it had a big name in it like that?Daniel: It would've been interesting if Chaney had played in Freaks. I think because Todd Browning used the kinds of individuals that he used for Freaks, maybe Chaney would've, for a change, had been the most outta place.John: Mm-hmm.Daniel: I do think he might have played Dracula. I think Universal would've had a hell of a time trying to get him over because he had just signed a new contract with MGM, whereas Todd Browning had transferred over to Universal by 1930 and really wanted to make Dracula for many years and probably discussed it with Chaney as far back as 1920.But certainly MGM would not have permitted Chaney to have gone over to Universal, even for a temporary period, without probably demanding a large piece of the action, in a financial sense, because Universal had acquired the rights to Dracula at this point. And, based on the stage play that had, come out on Broadway, it was probably assured that it was going to be a giant moneymaker, based on the success of the Dracula play.But because of Cheney's, status as a, I suppose retrospectively now, as a horror actor, he was probably the first person to be considered for that role by Carl Laemmle, senior and Junior for that matter. And Chaney gone by 1930, it did pose a puzzle as to who could take over these kinds of roles.Chaney was probably the only one to really successfully do it and make the monster an actual box office ingredient more than any other actor at that time, as he did with. Phantom, Blind Bargain and London After Midnight. So, I think to have pursued Chaney for a legit, supernatural film would've had enormous possibilities for Browning and Chaney himself.You can kind of see a trend, a trilogy forming, with Browning, from London After Midnight, in which he incorporates things he used in Dracula in London After Midnight. So, he kind of had this imagery quite early on. So, to go from – despite it's not in that order -- but to have London After Midnight, Mark of the Vampire, and he also did Dracula, he clearly was obsessed with the story. And I think Chaney was probably the, best actor for someone like Browning who complimented his way of thinking and approach to things like silence. As opposed to needing dialogue all the time, loud commotions. So, I think they dovetailed each other quite well, and that's why their ten year director actor relationship was as groundbreaking as it was.Jim: If the film does surface, if we find the film, what do you think people, how are they gonna react to the movie when they see it? What do you think? What's gonna be the reaction if it does surface?Daniel: Well, the lure of London After Midnight, the power in the film is its lost status rather than its widespread availability. I think it could never live up to the expectation that we've built up in our heads over the past 40 to 60 years. It was truly people, fans like Forrest J Ackerman that introduced and reignited the interest in Chaney's career by the late fifties and 1960s. That's when London After Midnight started to make the rounds in rumor, the rumors of a potential print existing, despite the film had not long been destroyed at that point. So, it was always a big mystery. There were always people who wanted to see the film, but with no access to home video, or et cetera, the only way you could probably see the film would've been at the studio who held everything. And, by the time the TV was coming out, a lot of silent films didn't make it to TV. So again, it has just germinated in people's heads probably in a better form than what they actually remembered. But, the true reality of London After Midnight is one more closer to the ground than it is in it's people are probably expecting to see something very supernatural on par with Dracula, whereas it's more so a Sherlock Holmes story with mild horrorish overtones to it that you can kind of see better examples of later on in Dracula in 1930 and in Mark of the Vampire.It's a film purely, I think for Lon Chaney fans. For myself, having read everything I can on the film, everything I've seen on the film, I personally love silent, detective stories, all with a touch of horror. So, I personally would know what I am going in to see. I'm not going in to see Chaney battling a Van Helsing like figure and turn to dust at the very end or turning to a bat. I'm going to see a detective melodrama that happens to have what looks like a vampire. So, it certainly couldn't live up to the expectations in people's minds and it's probably the only film to have had the greatest cheapest, marketing in history, I would think. It's one of those films, if it was discovered, you really would not have to do much marketing to promote it.It's one of those that in every fanzine, magazine, documentary referenced in pop. It has really marketed itself into becoming what I always call the mascot of the genre. There are other more important lost films that have been lost to us. The main one again, which has been found in its more complete form, was Metropolis, which is a better movie.But unlike Metropolis, London After Midnight has a lot more famous ingredients to it. It has a very famous director. It has a very famous actor whose process was legendary even during then. And it's actually the only film in which he actually has his make-up case make a cameo appearance by the very end. And it goes on the thing that everyone in every culture loves, which is the vampirism, the dark tales and folklore. So, when you say it, it just gets your imagination going. Whereas I think if you are watching it, it's probably you'll be looking over the projector to see if something even better is going to happen.The film had its mixed reactions when it originally came out. People liked it because it gave them that cheap thrill of being a very atmospherical, haunted house with the creepy figures of Chaney walking across those dusty hallways. But then the more important story is a murder mystery.It's not Dracula, but it has its own things going for it. I always kind of harken it back to the search for the Lochness Monster or Bigfoot. It has more power in your mind than it does in an aquarium or in a zoo. Hearing someone say that they think they saw something moving around in Lochness, but there's no photographic evidence, you just have the oral story, that is much more tangible in a way than actually seeing it in an aquarium where you can take it for granted. And it's the same with London After Midnight, and I think that's why a lot of hoaxster and pranksters tend to say that they have seen London After Midnight more than any other lost film.Jim: For a film that I would say the majority of the world does not have any frame of reference, and I'm using myself as the sort of blueprint for that, no frame of reference for this film. That image is iconic in a way that has been, I mean, it at first glance could be Jack the Ripper. I was talking to John before we started the podcast, once I locked in on that image, then I started to think, oh, the ghosts in Disney's Haunted Mansion, there's a couple of ghosts that have elements of that. I mean, it was so perfectly done, even though we don't, I bet you nine out ten people don't know the title London After Midnight, but I bet you seven outta ten people know this image.Daniel: Definitely, it has certainly made its mark on pop culture, again, I think because I think it's such a beautiful, simplistic design. Everything from the simplistically [garbled] to the bulging eyes and the very nice top hat as well, which is in itself today considered a very odd accessory for a grotesque, vampire character.But it's one of those things that has really carried over. It's influenced what the movies and artists. It was one of the influences for the Babadook creation for that particular monster. It was an influence on the Black Phone. It's just a perfect frame of reference for movie makers and sculptors and artists to keep taking from.John: Yep. It's, it'll live long beyond us. Daniel, one last question. I read somewhere or heard somewhere. You're next gonna tackle James Whale, is that correct? Daniel: James Whale is a subject, again, coming from, I happen to come from the exact same town that he was born and raised in, in Dudley, England. So, it's always been a subject close to home for me, which is quite convenient because I love his movies. So, I'm hoping to eventually, hopefully plan a documentary feature on him, based on a lot of family material in the surrounding areas that I was able to hunt down, and forgotten histories about him and just put it together in some form, hopefully in the future.John: That would be fantastic, and we'll have you back at that point.Jim: So, let's pretend for a minute that the audience is me, and they'd have absolutely no idea who James Whale is or what he's done. Just for a minute, let's pretend.John: Pretend that you don't know that?Jim: Yeah.Daniel: James Whale is the most known for his work for directing Frankenstein with Boris Karloff in 1931. But he also directed probably some of the most important horror films that have ever existed in the history of motion pictures. The Old Dark House, which can be cited with its very atmospherical, and black comedy tones, The Invisible Man with Claude Rains and Gloria Stewart in 1933. And, the most important one, which is probably the grand jewel in the whole of the Universal Monsters Empire, which is Bride of Frankenstein in 1935, which is the ultimate, example of everything that he had studied, everything that he'd learned with regards to cinema and comedy, life and death, and just making a very delicious cocktail of a movie in all of its black comedy, horrific, forms that we're still asking questions about today. One of his first films that he did was for Howard Hughes Hell's Angels, in which -- because he'd coming over from theater -- when again, films in America were taken off with the sound revolution. They all of a sudden needed British directors to translate English dialogue better than the actors could convey.So, James Whale was one of many to be taken over to America when he had a hit play called Journeys End, which became the most successful war play at that point. And he did his own film adaptation of Journeys End. He also did a really remarkable film called Showboat, which is another very iconic film.And again, someone with James Whale's horror credentials, you just think, how could someone who directed Frankenstein directed Showboat? But, clearly a very, very talented director who clearly could not be pigeonholed at the time as a strictly horror director, despite it is the horror films in which he is remembered for, understandably so, just because they contain his very individualistic wit and humor and his outlooks on life and politics. And being an openly gay director at the time, he really was a force unto himself. He was a very modern man even then.

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EP 5: Meet the Pughs

What Happened In Alabama?

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 5, 2024 44:07

When Lee got the results back from his DNA test, he was stunned to discover that he had pages and pages of white cousins. All his life he'd been under the impression that 95% of his DNA traced to West Africa. This discovery opened up a new historical pathway, one that traces all the way back to 17th century Wales. In this episode, Lee takes us on the journey to discover his white ancestry. Later, Lee sits down with two newly-found white cousins to understand how differently history shaped the Black and White sides of one family. TranscriptLee Hawkins (host): We wanted to give a heads up that this episode includes talk of abuse and acts of violence. You can find resources on our website whathappenedinalabama.org. Listener discretion is advised.My name is Lee Hawkins, and this is What Happened In Alabama.[intro music starts]Back in 2015, I took a DNA test and found out some pretty shocking information. I always thought that I was 95% West African but it turned out that nearly 20% of my DNA was European. This revelation raised so many questions for me and led to years of research that would change my understanding of my own upbringing forever. Today I'll share that with you. We're going to go all the way back to 17th century Wales to uncover the path my ancestors took from Europe to the American South and how that, through slavery, led to me.I'll talk with experts and newly discovered white cousins to explore the history that connects the two sides. I want to find out how my family's experiences on the opposite ends of slavery and Jim Crow shaped our beliefs and our understanding of American history. But you'll get a whole lot more out of it if you go back and listen to the prologue first – that'll give you some context for putting the whole series in perspective. Do that, and then join us back here. Thanks so much. In many ways, the seeds for this project were planted in 1991, during the first trip I remember taking to Alabama.[cassette tape turning over, music starts] Tiffany: He would play an album on repeat. That's my sister, Tiffany. I call her Tiff. It's 1991, she's sitting in the backseat of our family's car, driving from Minnesota to Alabama. Tiffany: Dad used to like still stay up to date on, you know, pop culture, current music. There were certain songs that he would be like, “Oh, I like that,” you know, like Tony! Toni! Toné! It Feels Good. And things like that.My dad hated flying. He'd seen too much in his life, and he related flying to so many of the musicians he loved: Otis Redding, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Buddy Holly. They were all his contemporaries, and they all died in air crashes. So instead, we drove.I was 19 years old, and I was attending college at the University of Wisconsin Madison. At that time, I had just really gotten into the school newspaper. I was thinking about becoming a journalist or maybe a lawyer, but at that point, writing was more intriguing to me. I was excited about this family trip to Alabama, and I had no idea what was coming.Tiffany: Yeah, so Alabama, it's been kinda a, a mystery for me throughout my life because I wasn't able to ask questions that anyone would ask when you're wanting to know things about your parent.One of the big reasons my dad wanted to go to Alabama was to interview my great-Uncle Ike. He was the eldest patriarch of the family in Alabama, and he owned a farm near Greenville, dad's boyhood town. But most importantly, because he was in his 90s, he knew a lot about family history. And Dad had a lot of questions. I remember getting to Uncle Ike's and sitting in the living room, and across from me sat a caramel-skinned, white-haired man. For me, his reflection was like looking into a mirror and adding 70 years.Uncle Ike was in his early 90s, but those high cheekbones and blemish-free skin made it harder for me to believe that he was a day past 75. It was also hard to believe we were actually in Alabama, with Dad finally standing before his legendary, long-lost uncle, with a tape recorder in his hand. It was a trip we'd been talking about for months. Dad wanted to learn as much as possible about the Alabama family he left behind. Lee Sr.: Well, it's definitely, it's been a blessing to get to see you. As interested as I was in journalism, I was far from having the experience and interview skills to feel confident taking the lead. Plus, I knew that Dad needed this, so I deferred to him. The fact that he grew up there meant his questions would be far better than anything I could just randomly think of. But hearing his questions and how basic they were showed me just how far he'd strayed from his Alabama roots. Lee Sr.: Let me see, um, you were telling me about my father Lum. Now, how many brothers and sisters did he have? Most of the conversation was going over family tree details. Simple things like, how many siblings did my father have? And what were their names? We sat in that living room and asked Uncle Ike questions for just over an hour.Uncle Ike: I understand that all of them were named [unclear].Lee Sr.: Oh, we had a aunt, uh –Uncle Ike: Colby…When Uncle Ike answered, I struggled to catch every word of his southern accent. It was so thick, I thought it might even be a regional dialect, one that was unique to what my dad always humorously called, “LA,” Lower Alabama. I marveled at how quickly Uncle Ike started reciting family members. Even at his age, his recall, it was as swift as a rooster's crow at dawn! Lee Sr.: Oh yeah, Aunt Jem. I remember her…As we talked, my eyes began to drift to the fireplace, which was decorated with family photos. There, I saw a framed, weathered photo of a white man looking like he'd been plucked from a vintage Field and Stream ad. He appeared part outlaw, part GQ model. He was in hunting attire. There were hounds at his heels, and it looked like he was gripping a musket. Why, I thought, would Uncle Ike have a picture of some random white man hanging over his fireplace? Lee Sr.: Now this, what's this guy's name? Is this George Pugh up here on this picture? Uncle Ike: No, that's Isaac Pugh. Lee Sr.: That's your father? Uncle Ike: Yeah. They called him Ike, but his real name was Isaac. That made him my great-grandfather, Isaac Pugh Senior. I looked closer at the photo, into his eyes. His gaze was a determined one, as if he was daring me to look into the records and find out more. Who was this white man?[music starts]That day was more than 30 years ago. Since then, I've learned so much more about our family history. Seeing that picture of Isaac Pugh Senior on the mantel opened up an entirely new branch of my family tree – a white branch – that I had no idea existed. Digging through the records and existing research, I was able to trace that line all the way back to 17th century Wales.I recognized that I couldn't fully understand my family's experiences in America without uncovering the history of our white blood relatives on the other side of enslavement and Jim Crow. I had so many questions. Why did they come to America? What did they do when they got here? And most importantly, how were they connected to me? [sounds of a boat on water, sea gulls]In 1695, a man named Lewis Pugh boarded a boat near his hometown in Northwest Wales to sail for what was then called, “The New World.” The journey was long and grueling. Many people didn't survive. But the ones that did held on by a combination of luck and faith. Faith that the land that they were headed towards would help them prosper. He landed in Virginia, likely as an indentured servant. Several years later, he met and married a woman named Anne. The couple purchased land in Richmond County. They built a home, had seven kids, and many more grandchildren. Two of their great-grandchildren, the brothers Jesse and Lewis Pugh, decided to move south to Alabama at the start of the 19th century. The first thing they had to do was to get land. And to achieve that, they had to overcome one major obstacle. Chris: Well, it's important to remember that whites wanted Indian land from the moment they first stepped into the Americas. And so Indians have been removed since 1492, of course. This is Chris Haveman.Chris: Let me just talk briefly about terminology and the use of the word “Indian.” I've interviewed dozens and dozens of Native people throughout my career, and prior to talking to them, I always asked how they would prefer to be identified, and almost universally they say “Indian” or “American Indian.” Now, these folks tended to be a bit older, and as the younger generations come of age, the term seems to be falling out of favor, and when it does, historians including myself will adapt and adjust accordingly.He's an author of two books on the removal of Indigenous peoples from Alabama and Georgia to present-day Oklahoma, and a professor at the University of West Alabama.I've come to Professor Haveman to help me get a lay of the land in 19th century Alabama, when Jesse and Lewis Pugh arrived in the state around 1810.When the brothers got to Alabama, they were in Muscogee territory. The Muscogee were a loose union of multiple Indigenous groups, and they had millions of acres. Tribal leaders also use the name “Muscogee Nation.”Chris: Really, the story begins after the War of 1812, when whites decided that they really wanted that, that nice, nutrient rich soil in central Alabama. Over the years, throughout the 17 and early 1800s, this land was whittled away through treaties.The federal government started sending commissioners down to remove the Muscogee – and to do this, they had to coerce them into signing treaties first. This was done all over the American South and the rest of the country – and by the time the removal really got going, the Muscogee nation had already lost a large part of their land. But they were resisting. Chris: Commissioners were sent out, and Indians did not want to give up their land. And so a lot of times they resorted to threats, they resorted to some other shady tactics. And you had whites streaming into the Creek Land and they would, you know, just establish their farmstead illegally in the Creek Nation. Sometimes it would just overrun a Creek homestead and kick the family out and commandeer their crops for their, as their own. A lot of times they would get Creeks hooked on alcohol and uh, sell them merchandise on credit, get them indebted to them, and then they'd force them to give up their property as collateral. And things get really, really bad. Lee: What was the philosophy that was used to justify that? Chris: Conquest. The whites wanted it, and they were gonna take it regardless. There was no real justification, moral justification for it other than whites had the racist premise that they were civilized and the Indians were “savages” and that the whites could make better use of the land than Indians.Jesse and Lewis Pugh became landowners, both running plantations. They founded a church in Troy, Alabama, called Beulah Primitive Baptist Church. It still stands today. In my research, I found an article honoring the church. The paper hailed the brothers as “those daring ones, who braving the perils of the wilderness, came here and reclaimed this fair land from the planted savage.” The “planted savage,” I now know, refers to the Indigenous people who lived on the lands across the American South and beyond.Professor Haveman told me that on top of forced removal, there was a great deal of Muscogee land ceded by the tribe, but the conditions of these transactions make it hard to say how voluntary these handovers actually were. Chris: In 1832, the federal government gives a proposition to the Creek Indians, and they say, ‘Look, if you cede the rest of your land to us, we will allow each head of family to take 320-acre plots of land.' And this is where everything really goes downhill for the Creek Indians, because they gave up their sovereignty, uh, in exchange for a title or a deed. But what it does is basically, and I think you have to ask, it was so one-sided in favor of the federal government. You have to ask yourself, ‘Why would the Creek Indians agree to this?' And I think that they agreed to this because whites had illegally trespassed on their land so much between 1827 and 1832 that they realized that you know, whites usually liked a deed or a, you know, a title to their land, a piece of paper, something you could say, “This is my land.” And I think the Creeks tried to adopt that in order to stave off this encroachment that whites were giving on their land.So they, they had this deed and this title, and they thought that that would prevent whites from streaming onto their land, but it didn't. It actually, it just opened up massive amounts of fraud for them. And so you had 5 million acres of land in the Creek Nation in 1832. When this was ceded, all 5 million acres of land went to the federal government, and then parcels of 320 acres were then given to each Creek family. If you add up the over 6,000 families times 320 acres, it only comes out to like 2.1 million acres. And so almost 3 million acres of land will now be opened up for white settlement. And so the thing that they were trying to prevent – whites from encroaching on their land – is now gonna become legal.[music]On a January evening in 1837, Lewis Pugh was in his plantation fields in Alabama with his overseer. By this point, he owned land and enslaved people. That night, a man quietly snuck onto the roof of a house that overlooked the Pugh family cemetery on the plantation. The man fired a rifle from the top of the house, killing the overseer. Immediately afterwards, a swarm of 60 Muscogee swooped down on the plantation field. They killed Lewis, one of his sons, and an enslaved baby, who was in his mother's arms. Four enslaved men tried to defend themselves, the women, and the plantation. The Muscogee killed them too. The story captured the country. Lee: It was in every major newspaper across the country, uh, that Lewis Pugh, a prominent white settler, had been killed, um, and murdered by the Creek Indians. Why do you think it was so important that it be framed in that way? Chris: It made national news because the thing whites feared the most was an Indian uprising. And it's one of the reasons that whites who, um, had no means to become large-scale cotton planters still wanted the Indians gone because they were constantly terrified that Indians would rise up and attack them. Uh, and they had, you know, somewhat of a legitimate reason to be scared because whites treated the Indians so terribly and stole their land and, you know, created all these problems for them.It's clear that the Muscogee didn't just fold and concede their land. They retaliated, determined to defend it. And I can't help but think about it from the perspective of those enslaved people who died, fighting alongside their enslaver, to protect his life and his land – that's how closely their lives were intertwined. I'm still very curious about them, because they, too, might've been my relatives. Not long after I took that DNA test and first found out about the Pughs, I found a last will and testament belonging to Jesse Pugh, the brother of Lewis Pugh, the man who was murdered by the Muscogee in Alabama. In the will, it stated that Jesse enslaved a young girl named Charity, who was kept in bondage by the family into her adult years. Not long before Emancipation, she gave birth to a biracial son who she named Isaac Pugh. That was the white-looking man whose photo I saw on the mantel at great-Uncle Ike's house. Isaac Pugh, my great-grandfather. Doing my DNA test couldn't have been any simpler. I went online and ordered the $100 test, and the next day, I got a small box in the mail. Inside, I found a vial, and returned my saliva sample the following day. In just a few weeks, I got an email with my DNA results. It shows you who your cousins are, from first, all the way to distant. I had pages and pages of cousins, including many who were very, very white. I'm talking blond with blue eyes. There were a lot of Pughs in there. I was stunned by the sheer volume. One genealogist told me he had never seen anybody with so many pages of cousins who had also taken DNA tests. At that point, I had more than 216 fourth cousins or closer. One of the descendants was a man in his late 80s named Lloyd Pugh. We both descend from Ann and Lewis Pugh, but our relation wasn't close enough to show up on my DNA chart.Lloyd lives in Petersburg, Virginia, and last year I went to his house to meet him with my producer, Kyana. You'll sometimes hear her in the background throughout the interview.Lee: It's a nice, quaint neighborhood with a lot of brick homes in a colonial-style design typical of Virginia, I think. I met Lloyd through a man named Jim Pugh, another newly discovered cousin, but coincidentally, I've known Jim for 30 years through my early work as a journalist, back in Wisconsin. He was a PR guy for the state chamber of commerce. Every month, I called him for a comment on the employment rates. I wouldn't say we were friends back then, but we definitely liked each other. And then, through an odd twist of fate, I found out that we were related. Jim: When you reached out to me and say, “I think we're cousins,” I was like, “What?!” Let's do a call.I'd always noted that he had the same last name as my Grandma Opie, but it was only through an exchange on Facebook after I'd taken the DNA test, that Jim and I compared notes and figured out that we were both tied to the Pughs of Wales. Once Jim and I reconnected, he told me he had an elder cousin who was a family historian of sorts. That person was Lloyd Pugh.Lee: Oh, he has, okay, an American flag on his house and one on his car. [laughs] And here we are. [seat belts unbuckling] Let's go get started. Lloyd has worked on this long before genealogy exploded in the mainstream. His research is in the archives of the Library of Virginia. He has binders full of information he's gathered over the years on the Pughs. Lloyd: That book right there is one that's on the early, early Pughs. Lloyd is 88 years old. He's a tall, lean, active guy, full of warmth and southern charm. He was born and raised in Petersburg, a city known for being the site of a nine-month siege back beginning in 1864 that ended up costing the Confederacy the Civil War. Lloyd is absolutely fascinated with the Civil War, especially the Confederate side. He has tons of relics in his home, everything from swords and rifles to cannons, decommissioned bomb heads, and bullets. He also has a huge painting of General Robert E. Lee, hanging right above his couch. Lee: Why do you have a picture of General Lee in your front room? Lloyd: Because it's a part of my heritage. It has nothing to do with being anti-Black or slavery. It's just part of my heritage in that I had three grandfathers that served under Lee. [music starts]Lloyd and I couldn't be more polar opposite in our views about the Confederacy. But I didn't go to Virginia to condemn or to convert him. I went to his house to talk to him about history, our shared history. And he was interested in talking about it too. So he and his daughters invited Jim and I over, and we had a conversation that helped me understand how the white Pughs would come to shape the Black side of my family for generations. [music]Lee: Well, thank you everybody. Um, the man of the hour is Lloyd. Because Lloyd has done a tremendous amount of work around the Pugh family history. And really, I want to thank you, Lloyd, for opening up your home and showing us this museum of incredible Civil War history that you have, and also helping me gain a better understanding of my own history.Um, it's, uh, it's bittersweet to understand how we're connected, but it's also, the power of it is that I wouldn't know this history if we hadn't worked together to understand it and to identify it, and part of my goal in doing this work is to inspire other people across racial lines to do this work. Um, and it is hard, but we both love it, right? Lloyd: Right. Lee: Okay, so, uh, you've done a tremendous amount of work on the Civil War, and we'll get into that, but you've also done a lot around the Pugh family, and I think it's important to talk first about how the Pugh family got to America.Lloyd: There were actually three migrations. One migration of Pughs went to Norfolk, and from Norfolk, they went down through North Carolina, South Carolina, on into Alabama, and in that direction. Lee: That's my line. Lloyd: That's his line. Our line of Pughs landed at, uh, Richmond County, which is the upper neck over on the, uh, near the, on the east, west side of the Chesapeake Bay, and they migrated on down through, uh, came this way, Chesterfield, on to Amelia County, and eventually they end up on the, uh, east side of the Appalachian Mountains.And the third group came in, in New York, and they migrated down the west side of the Appalachian Mountains into Tennessee and Kentucky on down in that direction. So there are three distinct lines of Pughs, and I was happened to be the one that migrated down through the Chesapeake Bay into Richmond County.Lee: What did the Pughs do here initially? Lloyd: Farmers. Tobacco was king in Virginia. They raised other crops. They had to raise, uh, food crops, but the money crop was tobacco. Tobacco was critical to the expansion of the slavery economy in America, so it doesn't surprise me that the White Pughs were involved in the tobacco trade. But through talking to Lloyd, I learned more about their interactions with Black people, specifically through a man named John Boyd Pugh. He's Lloyd's great-grandfather, and he fought on the Confederate side of the war. In fact, he was so committed to the Confederacy and the slavery it represented, he refused for months – after being captured and imprisoned near the end of the war – to take the oath of allegiance to the United States. It blew me away to learn how deeply committed people I share heritage with were to white supremacy – John Boyd Pugh and others believed devoutly in it. They practiced it, and were willing to die for it. And after the war, he became an overseer for a prominent family named the Baylors.Lloyd: And the Baylor family, signers of the Declaration of Independence, founders of Baylor University, some kind of way found out about my grandfather, John Boyd Pugh, and they offered him the oversee of New Market Plantation, which is in Milford, Virginia.His salary was one fourth of all the crops, plus $50 a month salary. And so he took the job, and he moved from Albemarle County with his family up to Milford to New Market Plantation. And he was the overseer of that plantation, right there at Bowling Green, Virginia. When I heard that, my mind went back to all the books I've read in my research, including The Half Has Never Been Told, by Edward Baptist, which clearly outlined the role of overseers as the drivers of productivity on plantations, many using whipping and other torture techniques to get the most out of enslaved Black people. Baptist explained that on many plantations, overseers held the enslaved to strict quotas. They'd weigh the crops and assess the work at the end of the day, and if the quota wasn't met, the person would be whipped in front of all the other enslaved people, to make an example out of them.Hearing that I not only share heritage with enslavers, but also overseers, I was absolutely stunned. I began to see how far back the whip could be traced in my family.Lloyd stipulated that because John Boyd Pugh did his overseer work after Emancipation, he believes he probably wasn't involved in whipping. Lloyd: When John Boyd went to Newmarket, this was after the Civil War. So they had to have hired labor. And I think, I doubt that there were the whippings and the lashing and so forth when you have hired workers because they could say, “I'm leaving,” and just walk off the farm, so, yeah. To be fair, it's possible that Lloyd is right – maybe John Boyd Pugh was one of the few exceptions; an overseer who never resorted to violence. But I doubt it, and here's why: in my research, I found the archive to be packed with proof that whipping continued to be a foundational aspect of overseer duties for decades after Emancipation into Jim Crow.Lee: This is the hard part, you know, for me, because, you know, I think when I first talked with you, Jim, you were telling me that your great – great-great- grandfather was an overseer. And I didn't know – or you didn't know – what an overseer was, and when I looked at, you know, a lot of these movies that you see, the overseers are the guys that drove the production of the, of the plantation. Um, and that, for me, is just, that's inextricably tied with the capitalistic, sort of, reality of building America and how so much of the productivity was driven at the plantation level. How did you feel when I explained, especially the part that whipping was a big part of overseer work? How did you feel about that?Jim: Well, you know, you don't really know what you don't know until you find out. And that's when you learn about it, you know, 'cause you don't, you think of, um, overseeing, uh, like a agricultural operation today, you wouldn't have that 'cause you have machines, you know? So, um, but yeah, that was pretty, pretty shocking to find out about that, but it's also the reality of what, the way the world was at that time, you know. [music starts]My mind went back to that interview with my Uncle Ike in 1991, when he told us about Grandma Charity. He told us that when he was a kid working on his father, Isaac Pugh Senior's farm, she would beat the kids if she felt they weren't being productive enough. This, from a woman who was enslaved by Jesse Pugh, a cousin of John Boyd Pugh. It's almost as if, once she became emancipated and the family got its own farm, she became the overseer, and her grandchildren, the free labor. Lee: I've been always fascinated by the way, when we built our country, just how deeply rooted it was, not just in slavery, but also in the establishment of the land, how people got their land, you know, um, particularly from, from the Indigenous people.And I think that the problem, just in my opinion, is that everything is so controversial that people have decided they don't even want to even begin to study this work. And there, of course, are many, many academics who write powerfully beautiful detailed accounts of all of this history. Um, Doug Blackmon, Slavery by Another Name, um, Edward Baptist, The Half Has Never Been Told.And in a lot of this stuff, they give really detailed accounts of the economy of slavery and also the Civil War, and the way all of the different range of realities that were at stake as our country was starting to form itself into what we now know today. Um, when you study the Civil War and the Confederate side of it, what, how do you relate to that history in terms of your un– do you know anything about John Boyd Pugh or was the, the oral history lost?Lloyd: I knew absolutely nothing. No one in the family shared anything, ever shared anything with me. And what was learned, learned through my research. Clearly, family secrets are preserved on the white sides of the family, too. Dark secrets like the violent role of overseers, the fact that land was stolen, and the identity of white men who fathered Black children, were not often openly discussed. And those lies of omission make it harder for future generations of whites to acknowledge the causes of generational disparities and trauma – through ignorance or cognitive dissonance. But this work – especially the DNA testing – exposes the lies, and people doing it have to prepare themselves for unsettling discoveries. This work isn't about agreeing on everything. It's about opening up the family bibles and records to access information that neither side would have without the other. So it requires a rare form of tolerance, and a spirit of unity as opposed to division on the issue of genealogy. The truth is that I feel like I was blessed. I was fortunate to stumble on a white guy who I'd known for 30 years, and we discovered we were cousins. We already had trust between us, and he opened up the door for me to meet Lloyd. And the timing was perfect. Lee: I think for me, and especially the fact that, that you're basically a Republican dude [laughs] who, uh, you know, really like, and deeply rooted in the Republican party, um, and, and that you're a Republican dude who took me through to make this introduction so I could meet Lloyd so that we could study this together, to me, defies all of the conventional wisdom, which is that we're all divided and we're all, um, to be, you know, enemies on the other side of the issue.Jim: Well, Lee messaged me. I had posted about the, the trip where we did, we followed Lee's retreat back to Battle of White Oak Road. I think that was our last stop, and then we came home. And Lee, he said, ‘I, I see your, I think we're related.' And I said, I messaged him back and, and I'm thinking, ‘I don't want to put a bunch of this stuff in writing,' right? 'Cause I'm being like, it's not, this is sensitive stuff. I mean, we're dealing with race, and this is a war –Lee: You knew the political, the political – Jim: Yeah, I'm working in operatives, and he was working for the Wall Street Journal! And I'm thinking, ‘This is gonna be, this is not, this is gonna end bad,' right? So I, I said, “Lee…” He's like, “I think we're related.” He goes, ‘I've been doing family research. There's Willoughby and Spotsworth –.' And I said, ‘Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That sounds about right.' He said, ‘Can we do a call?' 'Cause I'm thinking, I want to, I want to turn off the typewriter. There's nothing good that's gonna come [Lee laughs] from this if it's typed forever and ever.And we did a call, and he's like, ‘Yeah.' And I said, ‘Well, how do you know?' He said, ‘I did 23andMe. And my DNA goes back to Wales,' and I said, ‘Well, you know, welcome to the family.' [laughter]Lee: And then I said, ‘I want my reparation.' Jim: Yeah.[laughter]And as the conversation continued, we drilled down deeper into the undeniable proof of our ancestors being enslavers, and Lloyd plainly stated the facts: Lloyd: Okay, let me, let me confirm that. I'm looking at the will of John Pugh in December 1827. His will, one negro hired by the name of Harry, worth $300. One woman, Judy, worth $200. One young man named Abram, $400. This is actually in the will, so that goes directly in our line, so there's, I mean, that's the proof of our line owning slaves.Lee: Do you feel guilty about it? Lloyd: No. Lee: Tell me what you think about it.Lloyd: It was a, it was a time. It's just like the Confederate statues in Richmond. It was history in a time, and you can't destroy it. Even though they've taken them down, they're still there in the minds of people, and they are people who are gonna keep them alive.Jim: But we're not white supremacists. Lloyd: No. Jim: We're not white supremacists, and that's the thing people need to understand. It's so easy to just shortcut from, ‘You're a conservative Republican or you're a libertarian or whatever' to, ‘You're a white supremacist,' and that's just not the case. I don't hold white people of today responsible for slavery and the actions of their ancestors. We're not responsible for the sins of our forefathers. But we should take responsibility for the present and the future by being transparent and honest about history. I know I joked with Jim about reparations, but that discussion isn't just between the white and Black families tied to slavery; it's between Black American descendants of slavery and the U.S. government, which includes states that enforced racist laws. Contrary to what many assume or imply, reparations wouldn't be about individual white citizens personally compensating Black people; it would be government obligation, funded by taxpayers like any other public expense – infrastructure, education, or foreign aid. Taxpayers don't get to opt out of funding highways they don't use, just as those from families who didn't own slaves can't opt out either. Slavery fueled America's economic rise – on the backs of Black people, largely on stolen land – a legacy from which today's Americans still benefit, no matter when they came here. [music starts]All in all, I spent two days with Lloyd, his daughters, and Jim. We had dinner and we talked a lot. He told me more about his life, like how he spent most of his career as an educator and superintendent, even helping oversee the desegregation of schools. I realized our families share many common values despite all our differences.Lee: When you hold all these documents and all the binders you've made, thinking of all the Pugh history, what do you feel?Lloyd: First of all, I feel thankful that I'm the result of all of that, that I'm able to carry on the family line. I just look at the Pugh family across the years as just good, sound, solid business people who did what they were supposed to do, and stayed out of jail, and paid their taxes, and didn't beat their families, and just good old southern Christian families is the way I look at it. The information I received from Lloyd deepened my understanding of why so many slavery-era customs appeared in my childhood. It helped me with my quest to begin to trace the whip back to the very plantation where it started. For me, that's part of where the healing comes from – not from any kind of validation I'd seek from Lloyd and Jim, but from the information that's allowed me to draw my own conclusions and undertake my own healing work. The Pugh family history is intertwined with America's story, from the Revolutionary War through the Civil War and into the Jim Crow era. Lloyd and I come from the same family, but our experiences reflect opposite sides of the American history it's rooted in. Meeting Lloyd helped me piece together our family history. It also triggered a need in me to uncover the story of how the white Pughs in America treated the most disenfranchised and exploited person in this saga, my great-great-grandmother, Charity, the matriarch of my family.That's on the next What Happened In Alabama.[outro music]CREDITSWhat Happened In Alabama is a production of American Public Media. It's written, produced and hosted by me, Lee Hawkins.Our executive producer is Erica Kraus. Our senior producer is Kyana Moghadam.Our story editor is Martina Abrahams Ilunga. Our lead writer is Jessica Kariisa.Our producers are Marcel Malekebu and Jessica Kariisa. This episode was sound designed and mixed by Marcel Malekebu. Our technical director is Derek Ramirez. Our soundtrack was composed by Ronen Lando. Our fact checker is Erika Janik.And Nick Ryan is our director of operations.Special thanks to the O'Brien Fellowship for Public Service Journalism at Marquette University; Dave Umhoefer, John Leuzzi, Andrew Amouzou and Ziyang Fu. And also thanks to our producer in Alabama, Cody Short. The executives in charge at APM are Joanne Griffith and Chandra Kavati.You can follow us on our website, whathappenedinalabama.org or on Instagram at APM Studios.Thank you for listening.

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1-31 H1: Jim's Story Time, BREAKING NEWS w/ Seahawks

Cliff and Puck

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 31, 2024 40:58 Transcription Available

Jim, Jim, Jim… Well on this fine Wednesday Jim shares that his dog got pretty sick before the start of the show which led to River puking in the ELEVATOR AT THE STATION! Jim shares that instead of picking it up, he left it so that he could be on time for the show. Per usual, we always get breaking news, per Ian Rapoport, ”The Seahawks are set to hire Ravens DC Mike Macdonald as their new head coach. Seattle was willing to wait for him if Baltimore made the Super Bowl. Instead, their season ended last week and he takes a big-time job. He's currently in Seattle on a 2nd interview.” The guys react to the news, and ask the important questions, who will be the offensive and defensive coordinators?

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Quality in Emerson Education Services Podcast

Manager Minute-brought to you by the VR Technical Assistance Center for Quality Management

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2023 14:23

Modern digital technologies are vital in driving manufacturing and production performance improvements. Getting the most out of these technologies requires the knowledge and skills specific to their use. Educational courses help in upskilling personnel. The quality of that education helps determine how successfully the learned skills will be applied. Emerson's Sandra Schwarz joins me in this podcast to discuss how quality and compliance with standards are embedded across the broad range of education services and training from Emerson. Give the podcast a listen and visit the Education Services & Training section on Emerson.com for ways to increase your employees' knowledge and skills with a full range of training options. Transcript Jim: Hi all, thanks for joining us today. In this Emerson Automation Experts podcast, we'll look into some of the reasons that customers come to Emerson because of the quality and reliability of our products, solutions, and services. Emerson products conform to many industry codes and standards such as ASME, ASTM, and ISO 9001, and educational services are no different. Today, I'm catching up with Sandra Schwartz, Senior Manager of Education Services. Sandra will share with us more about quality standards for Emerson's Education Services. Welcome, Sandra. Sandra: Hey, thank you for having me, Jim. Jim: Well, it's great that you're here with us. So, Sandra, how would you describe quality from an education perspective and what does it involve? Sandra: Great question. For Emerson, Quality in education is giving our customers the best learning experience possible. So, this means experience about how they learn and enrolling in our courses. It's everything like coming to our facilities and then also having like professional and qualified instructors. And, most importantly, that the content is relevant and engaging. So, to do all of this, we have to have quality standards that include policies and processes that have to be followed by everyone that touches Education for our customers. Jim: Well, that certainly seems like it incorporates that lifecycle from, you know, signing up for it to the instructors and teaching it, and that the content is very relevant to what they're trying to get out of it. So what would you say our customers' primary concerns are regarding quality standards? Sandra: Well, our customers' primary concerns are that they want to be able to fully utilize the functionality and the capability of Emerson products that they've purchased. So, many times, a customer will ask about our processes before ever coming to a learning event. Once we share that we are IACET accredited and that we offer CEUs with many of our courses, then, you know, customers feel more confident that the people that they send to our training events will have a great experience and they know that we at Emerson are dedicated to their success. Jim: That's interesting. So how is Emerson ensuring and addressing high-quality standards for courses? Sandra: Well, you know, great question again. And we do this through our accreditation with IACET. And that stands for International Accreditation of Continuing Education and Training. This is an accreditation that Emerson has maintained since 2008. And this accreditation standard holds Emerson to a higher quality to design, develop, and deliver our training. It also ensures that we have different systems and solutions in place, you know, for us to enroll students to track their progress. To evaluate, are they learning what we intended for them to learn? And we have the ability to report on all of this and look at that data so that we're constantly improving for future customer events. So we have to be audited every year and through those standards and policies, that's how we are able to ensure that high quality for our customers. Jim: Yeah. It sounds like that collection of data and being able to apply that in a continuous improve...

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VRTAC-QM Manager Minute: Where did all the staff go? Addressing your Recruitment Woes- A Conversation with Dr. Jim Herbert -Penn State.

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 9, 2023 38:37

Dr. Jim Herbert, Professor of Counselor Education and Rehabilitation and Human Services at Penn State, joins us in the studio today. In this first part of a two-part series, Jim discusses the recruitment challenges identified in his study- Recruitment and Retention of State Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors: A Mixed Methods Analysis. Please listen in as Carol and Jim unpack this study and discuss the four significant challenges and possible solutions you can apply to your situation. Stay tuned as the focus shifts to the retention side of the study by Dr. Jim Herbert in the next episode of Manager Minute. Listen Here Full Transcript: Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute Doctor Jim Herbert, Professor of Counselor, Education and Rehabilitation and Human Services at Penn State, is joining me in the studio today to discuss his recently released study, Recruitment and Retention of State Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors, A Mixed Methods Analysis. I am so happy to have you here today. How are things going in Pennsylvania? Jim: Well, first off, I'm happy to be had and things are going very well in Pennsylvania. It's a beautiful summer day and the nice thing is that many academician might appreciate it. While we love students, summer session, they're not here, which means you can get parking spaces downtown, lots of restaurants. You don't have to wait a long time to get in. So it's a good time and good place to be in State College, Pennsylvania. Carol: Oh, that's awesome. Say, are you getting any of that wildfire smoke from Canada? Jim: You know, it's funny you say that because we just got an alert that indicated like over the next couple of days, Yeah, it's going to be coming this way. Carol: Yeah, we definitely got hit with it the last two days. And I saw it moving off to the East Coast, looked like the apocalypse here. It was very, very weird. So to set the stage for our listeners, I first met you through the CSVAR Operations and Personnel Committee, and I used to co-chair the old version of that committee. It was called The old HRD with Cynthia Speight, and I continued to participate in it when I entered the TA world. And so back in the day, Cynthia and I were super interested in recruitment, retention issues of counselors. And I'm talking like, this is probably like eight years ago now. And we had done several surveys with state agencies to kind of gauge where they were at with getting new counselors. And we kept seeing this shrinkage of people entering the field and the reduction in universities offering a master's in rehab counseling. And then you came to that committee to collaborate on a study you were doing that was partly supported by the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living and Rehab Research or NIDILRR, Jim: right. Carol: And so in the executive summary, you noted that there had been a consistent shortage of qualified rehab counselors employed by the state federal VR program for actually several decades. I mean, we're kind of thinking this is a new deal. And it's like this has been going on for quite some time and the Covid 19 pandemic really exacerbated the shortage. And you were also looking at the funding RSA provided to graduate programs that encouraged individuals to work and to be in VR. And you wanted to see like what happened after that two year kind of payback phase. And really, I found that interesting, that the funding had been provided for 65 years, but there had been no formal study about the scholars continuing their employment with VR after that period of time. So your study primarily examined recruitment, retention, concerns of the state vocational rehab agencies, and you identified strategies to address those. And in addition, you looked to see if there was a mechanism to track that long term employment outcome of the former RSA scholars working for the state VR program. So we're going to do this in two parts because you have a lot of stuff you did, and I think our listeners will kill us if we're going to do a two hour podcast. So we're not everybody just stay buckled in. We're going to tackle in two parts. And Jim and I are going to talk today about the retention side of the project. And then next month we are going to talk about the recruitment part of this. So, all right, enough background. Let's dig in. So, Jim, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, like how long you've been in academia? How did you get there? Jim: How did I get here? Well, I've been an Academician here at Penn State for 37 years. And where did the time go in terms of kind of how I got here? Probably like a lot of your audience, when you think about people that work in the rehab field, a lot of times you get in the rehab field because they have either personal experience with disability or a family member. And that's exactly what happened to me. I had a brother who had Down syndrome, and so I got interested and did volunteer work on high school and in college. And I loved working with people with developmental disabilities. That's how I got interested in rehab. And then during my, you know, college, I knew I wanted to work with people. But a lot of times, you know, when we teach career development, we kind of make it sound like it's this very logical process that you, you know, pluses and minuses and I going to do this. And yet we fail to acknowledge there's a lot of things by fate that impact on your career choice. You just happen to be in this office who you just happened to say something who happened to know somebody else who happened to have this job. So when I look back at my own career, one of the things I tell my students is that, yeah, you can plan and you want to be in a position to have opportunities. To come, but there's a lot of things you can't control and there's a lot of things that just sort of happen, if you will. Some might say by divine providence. I don't know if that's the case. But anyway, there's a lot of things that you can't plan. So in my own career, how I got that was sort of a combination of just fate happen to be in this place at this time. And then obviously preparation in terms of formal education and experience. But yeah, it's gone by fast. Carol: I love that when you said 37 years, we probably have some listeners out there going, I'm not even 37 years old right now. And I was thinking this year I just had my 37th anniversary. And so you and I have been around for a little bit more than a minute. I think that's cool. But I love that that you said by fate, I think a lot of us have fallen into our career trajectory truly by fate in whatever kind of circumstance. Like you said, you came into it at the time. So what went into approaching this study and kind of how long have you been at this? Jim: Yeah, it's funny. As far as doing this study, how I kind of got interested in it was I mean, I've been a project director for many RSA training grants throughout that time period. There's a lot of investment that you make and help students become rehab counselors and Penn State I think like many universities, we have a strong commitment to the state VR program. You know, I've always said that I feel that State VR people, you should have the best trained people to address the difficult needs and complex needs of people with disabilities have. So there's a lot of investment that's made. And then also, as you know, after they graduate and they get supported through RSA traineeship, they'll typically work for every one year of support, two years of full time employment. So if they work for a state agency, there's a lot of investment the agency makes. You'll often hear it takes 2 to 3 years before you just kind of feel like, I know this job. So when you combine that, you see the amount of financial investment and professional investment that educators and practitioners make. And so over the years when I've had a chance to meet with a number of our former alumni and what are you doing? And one of the things I notice is some of them would be working for a state agency, and then after a couple of years, they do their two year payback and said, I'm out of here. It's like, man, you know, what's going on? What's happening here? What are we doing? And what I came to learn talking with other educators across the country is it's not something I think, wow, is this something just unique to us? Maybe we're doing something wrong here. Maybe we need to do a better job, which of course, we could always do. But what I learned anecdotally was that, no, this seems to be kind of a nationwide problem. So you had that on top of I was interested. So what research has been done to look at the long term effectiveness of the RSA training program? And what I learned was I could not find any study throughout that whole history. I thought that was kind of interesting because I know we followed in the first two years, but after the payback period, that's it. So that started a pilot project that I had done. So I was just interested what happened with the people that came through Penn State, received the RSA Scholarship and worked. And what I learned from that pilot study, even though the data was a small sample size, I learned when we look at the percentage of people who are at the agency versus those that worked at Non State VR, I learned that it was significantly higher. The rate of people who are intending to leave the state VR. So that kind of rang some bells for me. And from there, with that pilot data, we then decided to undertake this three year study to investigate what's going on and more maybe not necessarily more importantly, but just as importantly, what can we do about it? So we are just finishing our second year of data and today and next month, we'll talk about some of the results of what are some of the things that we found from that study. So that's really kind of how this whole thing emerged. Carol: I really love that you tackled this because that was so interesting to me, especially when you were looking at 65 years of this program. But there was nothing done like there had been no study of what happened to the people. I'm sure as you were talking to directors and I used to be a director, you know, anecdotally we could see and tell you, like we knew in Minnesota, I felt like we were the training grounds for the VA. And so, you know, staff would come in, they would do an internship with us, come on board, Yay, you know, and all of that. And then the next thing you know, there's skedaddled over to the VA because they could make like 20,000 more a year starting. It was crazy. So it's like, how do we combat that? And we'll get to some of that. You had definitely some ideas for folks on how to do it, but I was really super pleased to see what you had undertaken there. So let's talk about the recruitment challenges that you identified in the study. What are the top challenges that VR is facing? Jim: Right now, the first thing I'm going to tell you, I'm sure your listeners are going to go, duh. I mean, the first big challenge is we don't have enough applicants. We don't have enough people applying for the jobs. And there's a lot of reasons for that. And I'd like to unpack maybe just a few of them. But one of the big things that states are constantly saying is years past, maybe we'd have a job opening and we might have 15-20 applicants today. We might be lucky if we can get a couple and in some cases we get none. So the big problem is we don't have a sufficient number of qualified job applicants. That's, you know, the big thing. So it's like people don't know about us. People don't know how to kind of how's this process work? To varying degrees, I think educators do kind of a mixed job on how do we market this. So why would you want to become a state VR counselor? You know, if you ask college students who want to be counselors, social workers, psychologists, and say, hey, there's this thing called a state counselor, it's like, what? What is that? I don't know. What do they do? That's a big, big problem. Another big, big problem that we have is look at the bureaucracy. You and I, we've had a history of and I'm still working in the bureaucracy here at Penn State as much as I love it. But the big thing is in that bureaucracy, the time it takes to recruit somebody, then you have to kind of review all the applicants. You have all the policies and procedures and steps and levels of people that need to review and sign off on this. Well, that process typically takes 2 to 3 months. And so you're thinking like, okay, for states that are looking and I know that regulations are changing, hiring more baccalaureate people, but especially for master's level credentialed persons, they don't have time to kind of wait two, three months to hear back from a job. If you think back to like when you know, way back in the Stone Age, when I'll just say when I graduated, you finish and you were poor and you needed money and I need to get a job and a job fast. So to ask them to wait for 2 or 3 months after they graduate, we're losing. We're losing a lot of qualified people. We need to do something about how do we reduce that time that's a little bit more manageable and a little bit more reasonable. Carol: I hear about that from directors all the time, that hiring practices. In fact, we're doing a little bit of a pilot on recruitment retention within our VRTAC for quality management. And so you've been aware I've been working with John Connolly and Ron Vessel, John Walsh, Missy Deal and Crystal Gary on our team where we've been talking about this. We've been also coming to the Operation Personnel Committee. But one of the states we're working with, you know, it's taking them 7 or 8 months to be able to make the offer. So they literally interviewed people. And then by the time HR worked through their processes, it was eight months later. And then you're going to offer to somebody and they're like, we thought this was done because we haven't heard from you. Gosh, you're going on a year, for Pete's sakes. People aren't hanging out. And if they are hanging out, there's probably a reason they're hanging out and somebody else didn't pick them up. Jim: You're absolutely right. Typically with state directors who we spoke with and we spoke to about 20 in the first part of this study, usually it was about 3 or 4 months. So, boy, if it's 7 to 8 months, oh, my lord, that's really, really bad. So on top of that, another big problem and this is where I think educators need to do a better job. A lot of applicants really don't understand what is it that a state VR counselor does? This might be a little controversial to say, but I think one of the things when we kind of went through the new accreditation process from CORE to CACREP and all and the counselor identity, now this is just my personal opinion. I'm not saying it represents, you know, any other constituent group. But in my opinion, I think what we've lost in that transition is we've lost a bit that the importance of career development, of job placement. We've lost, you know, kind of career counseling. And so I think students really don't understand that while I want to work in private practice, so they have this kind of idealized expectation, like, you know, I just open up my shop or I work out of my house and people just be coming and it'll be great. I'll provide good services, I'll make a good income. It doesn't work that way. It takes time to kind of do all that. And then my wife is a therapist had been doing this for 40 years. Even when you do that again, you have some idea of how you think it's going to work, and they don't really understand, like, Hey, well, what are some of the downsides of kind of private practice? And so a state view job has lots of benefits, I think, that make attractive. And one of the things I say to my students is where should I start? For me, working as a state counselor is a fantastic way to kind of get on the ground floor because you learn different systems, different agencies. You understand the whole network, and you'll also get connected in the community so you understand, you know, other providers and kind of what they do. That takes time. I think that's another problem because people have some understanding and we'll talk about the paperwork and all that. And there are definitely downsides, but there's a lot of upsides. The other big thing, no surprise, surprise, money. We don't pay them enough. We can talk about later on this podcast or the next about what certain states are doing and all. But the big problem is and you just alluded, not alluded, you actually stated that years ago, you take like the VA offer is just one example and it's like, okay, the credentials are the same. So why would I want to work at this place? It's going to pay me $20,000 less to do basically kind of very similar kinds of jobs. And so while some states have been successful in getting higher compensation, others have not. And we'll talk more about this probably in the next podcast because I do have some ideas about what you can do to address the compensation issue. So when you look at those four reasons, the fact that we don't have enough people, the fact that it takes time to go through all the recruitment that applicants, they don't really have an understanding of what's this job about? And the money, that's a deadly combination. And so we need to now think about, well, what are things that we could do to kind of make this more attractive to recruit them? Carol: I know when we were talking money, so I did a podcast. It was in April with Scott Dennis from Maryland. For our listeners, if you didn't catch that episode, definitely go back and listen, because he was successful in getting a significant increase for his counselors and the supervisors and the regional administrators because he's in this unique position where he's surrounded by like DC and all these other states. So he goes, Gosh, we're the training ground for RSA. Like they're stealing all my people. And folks were making significantly more well by him. And this wasn't overnight. Like everybody needs to know like any of these solutions that we're going to talk about, like it takes time. Literally. They've been working on this for several years. And finally, we're able to get it through. It almost immediately stopped the bleeding because he said he was every week getting everybody was reporting up like all these resignations. And it stopped and they actually started getting people back in that used to work for him, came back and said, hey, we love that job, but now you're paying a decent wage. I will come back. I know it struck me in the study, when you go the range of pay was from like 16,000. When you're talking about like an intern, you know, and it might be like the aid type of thing up to 101,000 and you go, that is a big spread. And there's a whole lot of states talking about, you know, those master's level counselors coming out and they're making $36,000. That's not going to cut it like that is not going to cut it. So I am definitely excited as we kind of get into talking about some of the other strategies folks could use. Now, I know you called out directly that VR agencies do not have an overall strategy to develop a comprehensive recruitment plan. And recruitment really is a reactive process. When somebody leaves the agency and I know we're going to chat about retention next month, so let's talk about some strategies that might help folks on the recruitment front. Jim: Yeah, that's right. So the first thing is, okay, when you look at traditionally like how does a state VR advertise? And often what we find is they'll do it through the State Civil Service Commission. And because that's the mechanism that historically that we've used. So we're going to continue. That's great. That's fine. But we've got to expand other outlets because number one, as I said, job applicants, many may not even know what civil servant. What is that? I don't know what civil service. I don't even know what that is. Well, we advertise there, but we have to look at accessing other networks. So the things that, you know, like indeed, and LinkedIn and ZipRecruiter, Facebook, there's just tons of social media networks that we need to be aware of. Again, I'm kind of old school, so Facebook. But yeah, I mean, my son, who's 26 TikTok and Reddit is a bunch of it anyway, so I'm not an expert on all that. But the point being is we have to think broader. So when we think about that, we have to recognize there's other tools that we're not using. Now, with that being said, and states are already starting to do this to again, historically, they've sought out rehab counseling programs as a source to say, hey, we're going to have some positions. If you have students coming out, we'd love to interview them. Great. But there are a number of states that you don't have an accredited program in your state and Savannah were fortunate because we have several, but there are some states that have none. So what they have to do in those instances, they've got to look at other programs, mental health programs and social work programs and school and psychology and substance abuse. So there are universities that have those kinds of programs. So we need to establish and I'll talk about this in a minute or two, a better working relationship with individual university program coordinators. Historically, we've had that. But in some cases, I think maybe because of the pandemic, things have kind of necessarily evaporated. But I think, you know, that relationship has been tested a little bit over the last couple of years. And not just that in terms of the network. And I think historically, State VR has done a good job in this area, but they could still do better in terms of the diversity of workforce. So there are groups I'm thinking in terms of ethnic minority groups in particular here where we need to do a better job in terms of recruitment. And so what that means is maybe we can't always rely on kind of traditional sites that many people use, but there are certain job boards and certain postings that are specifically devoted to access to underrepresented groups in terms of disability, may be wrong on this,. I think it's called recruit disability. I think there's another one called 70 million Jobs. So we have that. The other thing too, and sometimes in rural areas we have to do more and want to get back to something actually you mentioned, Carol, was I have to say this was a surprise to me. Originally we were going to do the study. We were going to interview state VR executive directors, and then the HR person who is responsible for recruitment and retention. And based on the people that responded to our surveys, we didn't find anybody. There's nobody that says this is my job title. Like, my job is to focus exclusively on recruitment and retention. And I think that's a big problem because that gets to what you were talking about a little bit earlier and that being that unfortunately, recruitment is kind of an afterthought. It's a reactive process. It's like, Oh, we just lost somebody. We got to recruit people to refill that well, that's the wrong way to kind of do things. That's sort of like we're reacting to something that actually happened and well, we'll get into retention next month. You know, part of that is how do we keep people? That's a separate issue, but also how do we recruit them? So we have to think, you know, what are we doing? So having a designated person who is responsible for this, I can't think of a more important aspect than recruiting and retaining your workforce. Lots of problems. But if you don't have a qualified workforce that is going to be around, everything else is kind of a moot point. Carol: So I agree 100%, because I even think back to our old agency that I came from in Minnesota, we didn't really have a recruitment strategy. And in our agency, we were in a labor agency. We had all these programs. You know, you've got adult dislocated worker and Wagner-Peyser, and we've got unemployment insurance and disability determination services and all this stuff. And they finally did. They they're like, Oh, we're going to get one dedicated person who's recruiting for all of it, like for every division. And you go, okay, for one, we all vastly do way different work and having some strategies, you know? So you've got this one person I'm going to go to the career fair over at blah blah, blah place. Oh, good grief. You know, we had to all kind of help pitch in to get the message out because a lot of times, you know, on that state website, you know, your career opportunities for the state our ads suck. I mean, they aren't very good. They're not very appealing. It's like, oh, come work for us, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't sound very interesting. And I remember the very first time I was like, okay, heck, no, we are not having that. And I rewrote that advertisement and like, come and join us for this like, mission driven organization and all of that. And people were like, Oh, I don't know if we're allowed to do stuff like that. And we had people apply because they're like, We've never seen an advertisement like that, you know, just getting in some of that fresh thinking. But that is something that VR can think about. Maybe you do only have one person in the agency, but then within your own group, is there a way you can have someone that can assist in helping to like make those advertisements appealing? Can they help to get the word out? I know our colleagues in North Carolina, General, they did a really cool thing through Facebook. They were writing really cool, like, why you want to come and be on my team? I'm like, I would answer that ad like, that was awesome. I think VR has got to get in there and advocate and see how they can help be part of the solution for this. Jim: You're absolutely right. And again, that's where, you know, kind of the history. Well, we've always done it this way. Well, that doesn't mean that we need to keep doing it that way. In any kind of professional reports that I've written about the study. I wouldn't say, you know, the way we post is sucks, but actually you're absolutely correct. That's exactly I mean, you read these job postings and say, well, is this intriguing? Like, my God, this thing sounds boring as hell. Why would I ever want to work that? No, thanks, but no thanks. And you mentioned North Carolina. That individual also participated in the study. And one of the things I remember that she had done was talking about not just how we do it, but the consistency. In other words, a state position, the same job. It's written one way in one city, it's written another way in another city. So wait a minute, how can we have the same job? And it's, you know, so we got to make sure that, number one, that the information is consistent across. But number two and the larger point that you're hammering on and I would agree, we have to think, especially with the newer applicants, again, I'm baby boomer I'm just about boomed out. But the Gen Z the millennials not to stereotype but I think they have a different view, a different way of thinking as it relates to this job seeking process. So we have to make it present, not just the job. Why do you want to work here in this office? What's unique, if you come in the Philadelphia office, what is it that we got that's so doggone special that you're going to love as opposed to Pittsburgh as opposed to Altoona or Harrisburg? So that's where we have to think a little bit more about on a unit level like and you know this and I know our listeners know this, you can go into one district office and the climate may be you can feel the vibe and you can go to another district office and there's another vibe. And that largely depends on the leadership and the sensitivity. And so you can go in and go, Wow, You know, these folks, they look like they're having fun and then, oh, this doesn't look like much fun. This is not fun. And so you have to be sincere, but you have to think I mean, that gets into a whole other issue in terms of climate, which we'll that's another topic. But anyway, the point being is if you feel like, you know, this is a good place to work, what makes it a good place? Explain to me in simple language why you want to come here. And so that's something. So while you can have the standardized because sometimes states regulations and all it has to be you can have standardized narrative, but you can also incorporate a section on why do you want to come here at this office? This is what we can offer you. This is why it's cool to work here. Carol: And that's completely controllable, you know, like having that little added narrative, just by like we need to use our words and speak up. I think people get used to the system sort of happening to us and with our situation happening in VR, like we got to stand up and go, Hey, like that isn't working because I'm getting zero applicants from that crappy announcement. Can we just change this wording? I know we need to have in our very specific things, you know, there's required, but can I have a paragraph that I can add at the top and it can be done? We've talked to people and they're like, Well, I don't know if we can do that. Did you ask? Because for sure you're never going to get to do it if you don't ask. You need to at least use your words and ask and show them an example like, Here's all your blah blah stuff, but I need this in there to just like punch them right away. Like how and grab them. This is going to be a really cool opportunity and that is in our control. Jim: Again, you're hammered that point very well. And sometimes people like the system or those guys, it's like, who are those guys? You know, to quote a line from a Butch Cassidy Sundance movie. So that's a movie for the baby boomers. But any rate, who are those guys? Well, we are those guys. And you're right, so often we don't even ask. We just assume this is the way. Well, could we? Oh, I don't know. No one's asked that. The other thing, too, that we talked about is the time, the time it takes before you get the job announcement and you go through this whole rigmarole and you actually hire can be months or, you know, in your case, three quarters of a year. I mean, that's unbelievable. So the question is, well, what can we do about that? It's funny because now I got North Carolina on the brain and because for confidentiality, I could probably mention but indicate I wouldn't mention people's names, but just say North Carolina, I'll leave it at that. You know, one of the things that what was happening that they identified was, well, why does it take so doggone long? What is going on there? Because the director is here and, you know, all kinds of complaints. Why, you know, from the managers and blah, blah, blah. So what things that she found that was important is like, well, let's talk with the HR people and say, can we do anything to kind of make this a little bit shorter? And so you had these like everything else, it all comes down to the R word relationship. So suddenly, like, I have a relationship with HR and I can contact them. They know me, I know them. We've built up mutual trust here. We're not just sort of a voice on the telephone or that kind of a thing. And so what they learned is, well, there are some things that we can do for reducing that lag time, but it all really kind of depended on staying on top of it. You know, so, hey, we advertise this thing last week. Where are we? What's the process? So we have to monitor and see this again. That makes a big difference when you have a designated person that says, my job. We have 25 vacancies in the state office this year. My job, part of it is finding out where are we? What's happening? What's going on? How many people? So it's that constant monitoring, following up, asking questions. So you have that. The other thing is like, well, procedurally we said, well, kind of reduce. Well, agencies, there's all kinds of background checks. You know, you got criminal background checks, you got child abuse, history clearances, motor vehicle. Sometimes you need to have those kinds of records. Some of that documentation could be done up front. So, in other words, as the application. So maybe that's part of the you know, hey, be aware that we need these. So you're already telling the applicant get started on this because it takes usually 2 to 3 weeks, sometimes a little longer. But if you kind of start that up front as opposed to 3 or 4 weeks into the, well, now we've just added on to that. So what can we do? So one of the things I know, like what I'll say to my students is most places now require you to do these background checks, whether you're going to state or not, to have these kinds of background checks, especially obviously if you're working with children or adolescents, get all that documentation from the very beginning so that when you begin the process, we're all ready to go. So I already have that information. Now, the other thing, too, again, I don't want to get too far in the retention aspect, but, you know, a lot of times like, okay, why do people leave? And one of the reasons is we'll talk about next month is people leave because they don't really understand the job as it relates to recruitment. Then there are a couple states at the moment, I can't say exactly which ones, but I do remember there are a couple states that what they had done is and I found this really interesting, is part of the recruitment process and to address the problem of what were you expecting, what was your understanding about this job? So as part of the recruitment process and the interview process, what they did was they would allow the applicant to actually job shadow a state counselor for maybe a day. You can learn a lot of information. And we know that when we have greater samples of behavior, we have stronger predictive outcomes. You know, they can see like the good, the bad and the ugly of this job. So some people might say, well, boy, if you do that, you know, we might not get that person. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Like this person. I'm not really sure this job is for me now after doing it. Yeah, I kind of think no, I don't think this is the job for me. At the same token, you have people like, Hey, I get this a little bit more. You know, I think this would actually be kind of a pretty cool job. The other thing and I can just talk more from my experience working with students who predominantly, not surprisingly, they're going to work for the state VR program would be here in Pennsylvania. And I get it. Because of hiring, you know, we have to be consistent. But sometimes, like that whole process almost sounds robotic. It's like you can't be human. You know, you have to ask these questions and you can't kind of deviate. And I'm not saying kind of break policy on that, but I would ask the again, this is the point that you made. Well, we've always done it that way. Well, did anybody ask do we have any kind of latitude here? Can we do some other things? So in other words, as they go through that initial screening process, one of the things happened is not that you have kind of the formal but you also have kind of an informal process. So one of the things that I know students really appreciate is if they have an alum who's working at that district office. So it's like, well, yeah, you graduated from Penn State two years ago as Dr. Herbert. Yeah, that guy, he's still there. They can't get rid of him. So then they have kind of a natural connection. So what states are doing is like, well, want to have kind of informal kind of get together. So maybe after you go through the formal process, you give everybody the opportunity. Some would say, yep, that sounds good. Others, no, I don't want to do that. But you give everyone the same opportunity. Would you like to talk with some of our, you know, Richard Bolles, who maybe some of your audience might not know who he is, wrote a book called What Color is Your Parachute? It's all about career and fantastic. Well, anyway, one of the things I remember many, many, many years ago when I first saw him, he said there's two decisions being made in the interview. The first is, do we want you? Do we want the job applicant? But the more important decision is do they want us? We got to pay more attention to that aspect we represent. So when you're interviewing, you know, like who are they interviewing with? It's like, what's the energy that you're communicating with? Yeah, we need to do a better job with that. The other thing I'll just kind of finish up on. This aspect is I talked about the importance of relationship, and that's the same thing here, states and rehab educators. We need to kind of reengage, if you will. I think because of the pandemic. I think that relationship to some extent has kind of impacted. And so make sure that you have a working relationship with your individual program directors and also to think about like, well, when jobs are going to be available, you know, let's say, hey, we're going to have something in May, well, usually they might contact us maybe in April. If you can be a little bit more proactive, if you know something's coming down the pipe, let us know earlier because then we can kind of, hey, these are coming available. I guess the final thing I'll just say, we've done this historically in Pennsylvania and over the last couple of years, it's been phased out. I'm hoping it'll get back phased in. Think about allocating a portion of your budget to offering paid internships. If you can give students the opportunity to say, look, it's a paid internship, you're going to get some income because they're poor, even though they have the training grant. Most programs, that's not going to cover all of the expenses. So providing that kind of paid internship. And in Pennsylvania, I'll say we're fortunate they also provide medical benefits. So you do the paid internship if you do a good job, you know that, Wow, you're going to be hired here. Maybe not this particular office. We do an internship, but one of these offices. And so giving that kind of opportunity and also more importantly is then you can see, I mean, the job interview, anybody can fake it for an hour or two. But when you have somebody for 15 weeks, you know, whether or not, you know, hey, this is a person we want to retain or we don't want to retain. Yeah. So I feel like I've been a little gerbils speed up, but hopefully that that kind of covered it. Carol: No, I love it. Jim. I think the important thing is to take away from this conversation today is that really VR has got to look at this differently. We cannot be operating the same way we operated 20 years ago. Like times have changed. So we have to deal with the situation where we're at today. We need to be proactive instead of reactive. There are a number of things within our control and we should be good at like we're people, people, relationship building that's in our… like we're good at that, Like buy a muffin for those people. I used to tell folks that whatever you need to do to grease the skids to get things rolling, like really working proactively, looking at your messaging, looking at I love that. Paying for the internships for the folks. Absolutely. We started doing that. I can't believe when I first came, it's like, okay, we're going to have interns come in and we're not going to pay them. Well, nobody has any money. Like, what's wrong with minimum wage or something? Let's give them some money so they'll come and do that. And it is a great insight into how folks can work. I really look forward to us continuing the conversation next month to go through the rest of the study. So I really appreciate your time today and definitely I will put the link for your study out with our podcast announcement as well. So thanks for joining me today. Really appreciate it. Jim: Thank you. It's a wonderful time and I look forward to talking with you next month. Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Episode 105: Product Lifecycle Management's Momentum in Manufacturing with Jim Heppelmann

Augmented - the industry 4.0 podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2022 46:31

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is "Product Lifecycle Management's Momentum in Manufacturing." Our guest is Jim Heppelmann, CEO of PTC (https://www.ptc.com/). In this conversation, we talk about the why and the how of product lifecycle management's momentum in manufacturing. If you like this show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/). If you like this episode, you might also like Episode 93: Industry 4.0 Tools (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/93). Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim (https://trondundheim.com/) and presented by Tulip (https://tulip.co/). Follow the podcast on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AugmentedPod) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/75424477/). Trond's Takeaway: The momentum is clear, and one indication is the trend that PLM is being elevated to an enterprise system. But why is PLM such a hot market right now? One key word is greenhouse gas reduction because companies need a system of record to track their emissions, and this is not easy to do without a system in place. Transcript: TROND: Welcome to another episode of the Augmented Podcast. Augmented brings industrial conversations that matter, serving up the most relevant conversations on industrial tech. Our vision is a world where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is Product Lifecycle Management's Momentum in Manufacturing. Our guest is Jim Heppelmann, CEO of PTC. In this conversation, we talk about the why and the how of product lifecycle management's momentum in manufacturing. Augmented serves an audience of executives, industry leaders, investors, founders, educators, technologists, academics, process engineers, and shop floor operators across the emerging field of frontline operation. And it's hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim and presented by Tulip. Jim, welcome to the show. How are you? JIM: I'm great, Trond. Great to be with you here this morning. TROND: Yeah, Jim. I thought we would talk a little bit about industrial automation and some specifics. But first of all, I wanted to talk a little bit about you. You grew up in Minnesota, got yourself a mechanical engineering degree, and became an entrepreneur, and sold your company to PTC. You were the CTO, I guess, for a while and now the CEO. It's been quite a journey. JIM: Yeah, it's fun. And by the way, industrial automation and related topics is my favorite topic. I was born on a dairy farm in Southeastern Minnesota, part of a very large family. It was a tough life. We never quite had enough money. So I was ambitious. I wanted to do something. I wanted to have a better life than I grew up with, not that it was bad, but maybe I wanted to have a little bit more economic security. I decided to become an engineer because I had spent a lot of time with equipment, machines, using them but also fixing them, taking them apart, putting them back together. I was good at math and science. So I went into mechanical engineering, but right away, I was drawn to software. And so I really got a major in mechanical engineering, a minor in computer science, and focused on how do you use computer science to do engineering? That led me to join a computer-aided design company, a CAD company. As an intern, I was assigned to a new idea they had which they called product data management. It was not very glamorous compared to the graphics of CAD, where you could twirl models around on the screen and so forth. So it's the kind of thing that you assigned to a new intern. As an intern, I took to it; I mean, it made a lot of sense to me. So basically, that's what I specialized in in my career, especially the early part of my career. And I became quite an expert at PLM, or at the time; it was called PDM. That led me, ultimately, when I was exposed to the internet, to say, "Wow, if you really leverage web technology with a light client, a web browser, make it easy for people to engage no matter what company they're in, then you could have whole supply chains working together in a very efficient way. So that led me to create a company called Windchill Technology, kind of a funny name based on a company in Minnesota; that's where the Windchill part comes from. But PTC came to acquire this company, and the business just really took off at PTC. In the ensuing years, I became the Chief Technology Officer across all of PTC, and then, as you said, that led to becoming the Chief Executive Officer a dozen years ago. It's been a great ride. It's been a lot of fun. We've accomplished a lot. The technology has come so far. Hard to imagine in the early days, it would end up here. But it's been a very exciting career trajectory, for sure. TROND: So, Jim, before we move into talking about product lifecycle management, I wanted to ask you a more generic question: what is the most challenging part of being a CEO? So you've gone from being an entrepreneur to being a CEO of a much larger structure here. What's exciting, and what's challenging about that? JIM: Yeah, I mean, I think what is exciting is also challenging, which is so much context-switching. In a single day, I go from worrying about budgets and financial plans to meeting with happy customers, sometimes frustrated customers to meeting with sales teams and R&D teams and R&D projects. And it's just a constant switch from one topic to another, which is exciting because they're all topics I like. But it puts a lot of pressure on you to very quickly remember where you left this conversation off last time you were involved and how to dive right back in and pick it up. And I think there's some pressure that comes from that, you know, to be on your toes ready to go and just switch from topic to topic to topic. And then, of course, there's the pressure of a public company that every 90 days, we have an earnings call. And our investors want to hear good news. Fortunately, we've had a lot of good news, but there's always a lot of pressure to make sure you keep it going. TROND: I wanted to jump then to product lifecycle management which is a specialty topic to you; it's not, right? Because you've been involved with this for a while, [laughs] and it's a passion for you. I guess in industrial automation; there are a lot of three-letter acronyms and such. But if you'd give your best way to explain how this software got started, what was the original intention? I mean, this is a while back now. We're talking 1998 when this software suite got created when Windchill started creating this software. What did it do then, and what does it do now? JIM: Well, PLM is really the system of record for product data. So if you think of salesforce.com, they got started just a couple of years later. They're a system of record for customer information, the 360-degree view of the customer. And in most companies, they have an ERP system, and that's the system of record for the financial data, all the purchase orders, and invoices, and whatnot, and might have a human resource information system, something like Workday, that's the system of record for all your employees. But if you're an industrial company that makes products, you have a lot of product data. And where is the system you can go to to find and interact with that data in your day-to-day job as part of that product development, or manufacturing, or customer support process? And so PLM really has become that system of record. And for an industrial company that makes products, it's a pretty important system of record. Like a CRM system or an ERP system, you're not just collecting and managing the data; you're also transacting against it, applying change orders, and building configurations of it, and whatnot. So PLM has become recognized in industrial companies as a critical anchor system of record. That's the way I like to think about it. TROND: Yeah, and we'll get into some of it after a while. But I guess product lifecycle is something that has gone much higher on the agenda for environmental reasons and others. So, I guess, if you think about a product from its ideation and to its disposal, essentially, it's a long chain of events that such a system, theoretically, could help a company with. JIM: Yeah, for sure. And just to go a little deeper in that, a lot of products are made of mechanical parts, electronic parts, software parts. They come in lots of different configurations. They change from year to year and sometimes month to month, so there are a lot of engineers and product managers involved. And then purchasing gets involved, and supply chain management gets involved because very few companies build everything themselves; they work with a supply chain. Then you're bringing in the factory and production planners, and then ultimately, the production process. They need this data, and they need the right configurations and versions of it. Then you ship the product to the customer, and you provide, in many cases, service and support. And you can't do that well without understanding the configuration of the product and all the versions of mechanical electronics and software parts in it. Really what we're talking about is, yeah, following that product throughout its lifecycle. Sometimes I like to use a golf analogy, like the front nine and the back nine on an 18-hole course. The front nine is everything that leads up to the product being manufactured, and the back nine is everything that happens thereafter. And to really do product lifecycle management, you have to think of all 18 holes, and that's kind of the focus we've had here at PTC. TROND: To what extent is product development kind of a management discipline, and to what extent do you feel like it's a technical discipline? And clearly, the software here is enabling digital records, I guess and tracking a product process. But product development historically it's not among those areas of management that have received the most attention, I guess, arguably. So how do you see this relationship? JIM: I think it's become more and more of a management methodology over time because you start with innovation. You can't legislate innovation. That sort of just happens naturally, organically, if you will. But every single product has a plan. It has a cost target. It has a launch date target, you know, a time-to-market target if you will. It has a quality target. More and more, it might have regulatory accomplishments or protocols it has to comply with. So I think that what companies are trying to do is unleash innovation but in a managed process. A lot of companies historically have used management techniques like waterfall management or stage gate. More and more companies are intrigued now about could we use agile, you know, scrum management methodologies to develop hardware like we develop software? Because it really works well for software. Now, hardware is not software, so there are some special concerns there. But definitely, there's a management methodology, and I think PLM really is critical to doing that management methodology well. You can't manage a process if you don't have access to the right information. You can't even have a dashboard if you don't have the right information. But more important than the dashboard, the people participating in the process can't be expected to do the right things if they're not given the right information to work against. And that's really why PLM is so critical to managing the whole cost, quality, time to market, regulatory, and similar concerns. TROND: So why, then, is PLM such a hot commodity right now? Because I guess that's what you're arguing, that it's becoming more and more crucial. What are the inflection points since 1998? And what is it now that makes it such a crucial system? JIM: Yeah, well, I think a lot of industrial companies are really leaning into digital transformation initiatives, a huge amount of spending. And it's because they see themselves potentially being disrupted or losing competitive advantage, at a minimum, if they're not sufficiently digital. And so when they lean into digital transformation, they quickly realize how much could we possibly transform a product company if we're not even managing our digital product data? So PLM quickly becomes a must-have these days in a digital transformation initiative. And then, of course, COVID has been a huge catalyst because it was hard to share information when everybody came to work every day. But if, on any given day, 40%, 50%, 60% of your employees are working from home, how do you interact with them? You can't walk down the hall and knock on their door anymore because they're not there, and if they're there, you're not there. I think what's happened as a consequence of COVID and the hybrid workforce that we're probably now left with forever; I think PLM is just absolutely critical must-have. So we've gone from nice-to-have and engineering tool to must-have enterprise tool. TROND: Let's talk about the hybrid workforce for a second. I mean, well, there were two massive predictions, one, this will never happen in industrial companies because we're actually talking about factories, and you can't be away from the factory. And then, of course, there were the future of work people saying, "This should have happened a long time ago. There's no need for any people, and factories are, you know, 24/7. There's technology. You don't really need to come in there." You've said some of these changes, you know, we're stuck with them forever. What does the hybrid workforce mean in an industrial organization like your own, for example, or your largest clients? JIM: I think if you look at a manufacturing company who has factories and such, you could separate their workforce into knowledge workers; these are people who are paid to think. And frontline workers are people who are basically paid to show up and use their hands, and feet, and so forth. And I think that frontline workers have to be there, and in most manufacturing companies, they are. And they very carefully protected these workers right through COVID because if those workers don't come to work, the factory doesn't run; there are no products. But the knowledge workers, the engineers, the finance people, the procurement people, supply chain, the planners, the service and support people, they really work on a computer all day. And whether that computer is in the office, or at home, on the dining room table doesn't matter that much in terms of their ability to get their job done so long as they have access to the right information and an ability to participate in the process digitally. So I think we're going to see...the forever state I envision here is hybrid on the knowledge worker side and in the factory on the frontline worker side, or sometimes at the customer side in the frontline worker side of the equation. TROND: To what extent does a PLM system then actually help frontline workers? So is it more of an enterprise system that helps, I guess, the leadership? JIM: It's an enterprise system. It is critical for the knowledge workers and informs the frontline workers. The knowledge workers need to participate in the process of creating and evolving this information over time. What's in this product we're going to launch, and how will that change? We have supply chain problems. We have to find a new supplier, okay, that's a change to the product. If we come up with new and better ideas or fix bugs, those are changes to the product. So the product information is changing. And there are a lot of people interacting with it online. So PLM is the system that they interact with. And they might be in the office interacting with PLM. They might be at home. That's knowledge workers. For frontline workers, when they come to the factory, they're supposed to build something today. What am I supposed to build? And PLM supplies them the information: here's the product you're working on today; here's the configuration, the bill of material, and the work instructions to go build that product. So I'd say think of frontline workers as consumers of this information. And sometimes, they're given feedback because the process isn't sufficiently effective. But the knowledge workers are really the ones developing and evolving this information over time. TROND: Give me some examples of how a PLM system is used by real customers; you know, what are the biggest use cases when you purchase such a system? And over time, what are the biggest value drivers of such a system in a real organization? JIM: The main reason all companies buy PLM is cost, quality, time to market associated with the products. A team of engineers and product managers is going to specify an engineer, and simulate, and iterate, and they're going to come up with some product concepts. And they're going to be working with the purchasing department on who will we source these parts from. They might be working with contract manufacturers who are going to actually produce the product if we're not going to produce it ourselves. If we're going to produce it ourselves, we have to work with the manufacturing engineers and then ultimately the factory. If this is a long-lived asset, we're going to have to figure out how would we service it? What kind of spare parts are we going to need? What kind of technical documentation and service work instructions would be required? So there are many, many people who have to interact with this product information before that product ever comes to life. Again, if you want to do this quickly, you know cost, quality, time to market. Let's take time to market; if you want to do it quickly, you need everybody working on the right information simultaneously. If you want to have quality, you got to make sure nobody's working on the wrong information because that's the source of quality problems; somebody buys the wrong part or makes the part incorrectly, uses the wrong version of the drawing, or the model, or what have you. That's where quality problems come from. And then on the cost, if you're trying to hit a cost target, you need to be way up front simulating if we built a product that looked like this and we bought all these parts from the suppliers, and we assembled it like this, what would it cost to do all that? All the decisions made during product development lock in cost. You don't spend so much cost, you know, so much money developing the product, but you make all the decisions that lock in cost later. If you design an expensive product, the factory is not going to make an inexpensive product; they're going to make an expensive product. People really need to collaborate. But then there are some advanced topics. So cost, quality, time to market, everybody needs that. Some people need regulatory compliance. Some people want to drive greenhouse gas emissions reduction strategies. Some people want to do what I call platform strategies, where they reuse many modules in many different configurations to be efficient. And there's more, and we can probably get into that. But there's a series of more advanced strategies that really go more to the competitive advantage that a company is trying to develop. MID-ROLL AD: In the new book from Wiley, Augmented Lean: A Human-Centric Framework for Managing Frontline Operations, serial startup founder Dr. Natan Linder and futurist podcaster Dr. Trond Arne Undheim deliver an urgent and incisive exploration of when, how, and why to augment your workforce with technology, and how to do it in a way that scales, maintains innovation, and allows the organization to thrive. The key thing is to prioritize humans over machines. Here's what Klaus Schwab, Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, says about the book: "Augmented Lean is an important puzzle piece in the fourth industrial revolution." Find out more on www.augmentedlean.com, and pick up the book in a bookstore near you. TROND: So, Jim, talk to me a little bit about the future outlook. So there are some very exciting prospects here for more ambitious uses of PLM software. If you are looking into the next, you know, two to five years, what are some of the more advanced use cases for this kind of software? What are customers trying to do? You've been talking a little bit about regulatory requirements and greenhouse gas emissions. What exactly does that use case look like? JIM: Well, let's take regulatory first. Some products are launched into regulated markets; a good example would be medical devices. That whole product development process and use thereof is regulated by the FDA or similar agencies around the world. Or let's take aircraft; they're regulated by the FAA. Or let's take automobiles; they are regulated by a number of different standards related to safety. So, for example, there are standards around safety critical software to make sure that some supplier doesn't make a late change to the software they contributed to the automobile. And now, suddenly, your anti-lock brakes don't work anymore because they introduced a bug. So in each case, medical device, automotive, aerospace, and there are others, what the regulators really want is traceability. They want to make sure that all of the changes that were introduced were planned and tested so that no errant change came in that produced some anomalous side effect that could kill people. And so, complying with the standards of the FDA, the FAA, or various automotive bodies is critical. And PLM is the system that gives certainty that those standards have been complied with. PLM is tracking requirements, changes, test cases to prove we have test cases for all of the changes and all of the changes were driven by legitimate requirements. If you can prove all that, the regulators are going to say, "Great, go ahead and launch the product." So I'm oversimplifying it, perhaps, but that's sort of a way to think about the regulatory use case. Let me pick a different one, though. Many of our customers have what they call platform strategies, and sometimes I refer to this as diversity with scale. So let me pick a great example of a PTC customer, Volvo, so if you know Volvo, they make trucks, but they also make construction equipment. And they make buses, and they make ship engines, boat engines. And so across those very different products, they try to reuse the same engines, the same transmissions, the same telematics systems; why? Because if the truck guys develop truck engines and the bus guys develop bus engines, and the boat guys develop boat engines, we'd need a lot more engine factories, and then we'd need a lot more spare parts for all these engines that last decades. So there's great inefficiency in unbridled innovation. So they actually want to control it a little bit and say, let's agree that the company will have a series of engines. And no matter what bus truck construction equipment or whatever you create, you should try to reuse these engines. What that means, though, is that the engine gets used in many different product configurations, many different buses, many different trucks, many different construction equipments. You get an explosion of configurations. In fact, just for fun, Volvo says that their products come in 10 to the 84th power hypothetical configurations. Now, very few of those configurations will ever be built, but they could be built. And so, how do you manage that? Just for fun, Caterpillar was meeting with me about a week ago. They were telling us about some of their challenges. And they said that their products, Caterpillar products, come in infinity minus eight configurations. I laughed and said, "That's a funny joke." And they said, "It's not really a joke." I mean, it's not really infinity minus eight, but there are so many configurations. Now, why is that important? Let's say you're trying to produce manufacturing instructions. You can't hand-author infinity minus eight manufacturing or service instructions. You're going to have to generate them from building blocks. So just like the products have building blocks, the information needs to be constructed in building blocks so that if you assemble a combination of building blocks to create a piece of construction equipment, you could then assemble the information building blocks to create the manufacturing instructions for that same piece of equipment and the service instructions as well. So the configuration management of the product and all of the information building blocks has to be directly aligned and very, very sophisticated. If you change that engine, you're going to have rippling effects across many different product lines. And so I call this complexity management, sometimes diversity with scale. But how does a company get the ability to create many different products but reuse the same factory and service capabilities to the degree possible? That's a big challenge for companies. But it's the difference between being competitive, high growth, high margin, and not being competitive. So it's a must-have in certain industries but very much an advanced topic. If you talk to a startup company, they would say, "I don't even understand what you're talking about." But these larger companies, it's absolutely critical to their financial wherewithal. TROND: So I want to get to green- in a second, but before that, what do you say to people that would claim that industrial automation has taken a long time to get to this fairly advanced stage that you're describing here? I guess, you know, for example, from the perspective of an impatient, young software engineer who's looking at this space, they're saying, "Well, you guys, you're finally coming to cloud, you know, still have some on-premise." And there are a lot of elements in this software. We talked about software that's been developed since 1998. There's quite some legacy, not just in your product but in every automation company's product. And certainly, your customers must have the legacy challenge as well. This is not a space where systems get changed out every six months. So tell me a little bit about that reality. JIM: In tech, there's a saying that goes something like this, that many breakthroughs have less impact in the near term than you expected but more impact in the long term than you expected, internet being a perfect example. The first couple of years the internet, you know, it was kind of silly stuff and maybe just publishing papers and whatnot, and today it's the way the whole world exchanges information. When I look back over my career, the technology has changed a tremendous amount. But when you look at how much is it changing this year, it looks like, well, not that much. But what happens is there are a lot of new concepts, like you mentioned, the cloud. But when I first worked on PLM, it was a mainframe application; then it became a client/server application, then it became a web application. And now it's a SaaS, a cloud application. These changes take time, but then they unleash whole new use cases, whole new value, and the products get better and better and, frankly, less and less expensive over time. And then you get to that tipping point where it really makes sense. Maybe ERP got to that tipping point, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago, and CRM got to that tipping point 10 years ago. I think right now, PLM is at that tipping point where people really see the value, and the value proposition makes sense. What do I need to put in? What do I get back financially from an investment in PLM? That's starting to make a lot of sense to people. I used the phrase earlier we've gone from nice-to-have to must-have in the last couple of years, thanks in large part to digital transformation and then COVID. TROND: You used agile and scrum earlier, but even beyond those techniques, there's a demand in the industry for software that can be very easily configured by non-specialists. So here we're talking about perhaps low-code software in and of itself, or at least that the user interfaces are easy to operate. And I guess you can understand that because the training challenge, for example, in manufacturing and, you know, you were referring to frontline workers. And while the training factor there is significant but also, conversely, on the knowledge worker side, to use your definition here and distinction between the two, even engineers have had to contend with a lot of new frameworks. And they were not trained on the kind of software that you're talking about here. Many of them were industrial engineers and still actually don't receive an enormous amount of IT programming in their curriculum. There are so many other things to focus on. So what do you see there in terms of the low-code space or in terms of the interfaces? Is industrial automation also gradually simplifying? Or are we on this enormous train towards more complexity in all that chain? JIM: Well, I think what's happening is the systems are becoming more sophisticated behind the curtain. But then we're providing different user communities with role-based views into that information. If you think about a product manager, an engineer, somebody in purchasing, somebody on the factory floor, somebody in the service bay, they all need product information, but their needs are quite different. And then when you go from one company to the next, they might be different again because the companies are different, the products are different. So yeah, definitely low-code approaches...for example, we have a product called Navigate, which is kind of a low-code overlay onto the basic PLM system. A low-code approach that allows you to tailor what different user communities experience when they log in, I do think is very important because if I'm in purchasing, show me what a purchasing person needs to know and no more. If I'm on the factory floor, I don't need to know what things cost; I just need to know what the work instructions are. So show me just a limited view that hides all the rest of that complexity. Certainly, there are some power users who need a lot more, but there are a lot of users who really need kind of almost looking at the information through a straw if you will. There's a fairly limited amount of information and functionality that's relevant to them. How can we serve that up to them in the simplest possible way? I do think that's critical. It needs to be tailorable in order to work well. The introduction of low-code approaches into PLM has certainly helped with the broader adoption to go beyond the engineering department and really make it an enterprise system. It's been a critical enabler. TROND: I want to benefit from some of your experience to think about, you know, what's going to happen next in the broader field of industrial automation? But perhaps you can kick it off with a little bit more detail on how you see the green challenge working out. Because clearly, more and more industries are starting to take the climate challenge or just even bits and pieces of it, like you were talking about earlier, the product lifecycle tracking of a product, worrying also more about the end state of their products. What are systems then having to adapt to? JIM: Let me say; first, some companies see climate change and greenhouse gas reduction as an opportunity. And there are a lot of green tech companies launching, startup companies launching to produce next-generation products. On the other hand, there are a lot of larger companies that are under tremendous investor pressure to be more green. If you're a public company right now, you really have to be active on the environmental, social, governance (ESG) front. You have to have a story, and it can't just be a story. There has to be some reality behind it. So what's happening now is companies are saying, "Okay, well, where does greenhouse gas come from? And, by the way, who really is a great producer of greenhouse gas?" And it turns out manufacturing companies actually have fairly substantial greenhouse gas footprints. The production of their products in their factories and the production of all the materials, you know, raw materials and whatnot, has a lot of energy use associated with it. And then, some of these products go on to be used by the customers in a way that also consumes a lot of energy use. So manufacturing companies are saying, well, if I wanted to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, I really have to back up and think about the products I make and how could I make them with less greenhouse gas footprint. But how can I also design them so that when operated, they generate less greenhouse gas footprint? But all this stuff starts in engineering. People in factories don't get to make changes. They have to be specified by the engineering department. So just like the engineering decisions lock in cost, frankly, they lock in greenhouse gas footprint. And the important thing is to bring awareness in analytics upstream so that when an engineer is thinking about how to innovate and solve a particular problem, they say, "Well, this approach would have a high greenhouse gas contribution, and this alternative approach would have a very low greenhouse gas approach. Let's go with this secondary approach for reasons of reducing our greenhouse gas footprint." Again, if you really want to move the needle in a manufacturing company, you can't get far if you don't open the hood and look at the products, and the system you log in to do that is called PLM. And so PLM will be manufacturing companies' best friend as they think about over time how to consistently reduce their greenhouse gas footprint, and actually, track the progress they're making so that they can publish to their shareholders and whatnot the incremental progress in how well are they advancing toward their goals. TROND: Well, Jim, what you're talking about now clearly is a big part of the future in the sense that this, you know, it sounds so simple when you're explaining it. But measuring that, obviously, is not something that software in and of itself can help a company in every part of it, right? I'm assuming this means a lot of rethinking inside of these industrial companies. But if I want to benefit more from your broader view on the industry, what are some of the other things that you think in a longer time frame are happening in the industrial space? I mean, are we looking at more and more innovation from startups? Like, you came yourself from a startup. How do you see the startup innovation in this space versus sort of the giant...PTC now has become more of a giant, but obviously, like every company, you started out in a different position. What are some of the technologies that you're excited about that are going to really change this space as we move into the next decade? JIM: Let's back up and talk a little bit more about cloud and SaaS because if you look at the PLM industry, it's very much an on-premise industry; you mentioned this earlier. If you look then at business software, in general, this is an important year because this year, more of the entire ecosystem of business software is delivered as a SaaS model than an on-premise model. This is the first year where there are more SaaS in total than on-premise, but within our little corner of the world called PLM, that's not true at all. We're very much an on-premise market. But customers would have great benefit if we could deliver this to them via the cloud as a service rather than ship them software or let them download software to be more practical. We think, at PTC, this industry is going to the cloud. The automotive industry is going to electrification, and the PLM industry is going to SaaS. It's really that simple. Is it happening today right now? I don't know. I still drive a combustion-engine automobile. But I know at some point, I'm going to be driving an electric vehicle. And, Trond, here in California, I mean, they just passed a law there that said by 2035, you can't even buy a combustion automobile. So I know you're going to be going to electric if you want to own a car. Again, I'm making an analogy. What's happening in the automotive industry as it relates to electrification is what's happening in the PLM industry as it relates to SaaS. The industry is in transition. There will be winners and losers in this transition. PTC has tried to position itself to be a winner by being out front, paving the way, and bringing the industry along with us. So I think that's a pretty profound change that's coming, and it brings tremendous benefits, cost of ownership, simplification, real-time collaboration up and down a supply chain, and many others. TROND: Do you have any advice to would-be entrepreneurs in the industrial space? It's interesting, at least to me, that, yes, we have Tesla now, and a few others, but kind of the poster child examples of startups is usually not an industrial company. Well, there are certainly many, many more of these success stories that seem to come out of the garage-type thing that is perhaps not hardware and certainly not industrial. What is your view of that? JIM: My advice there is to focus on what's most important, and that is developing your innovation and getting it to market. I'm talking about innovations that involve physical products. But frequently, in the startup world, there are lots, and lots of electronics and software involved these days as well. But we have several products, like our Onshape CAD product and Arena PLM products, that are pure SaaS. They have never existed in a shippable form and never will. They're extremely popular with startup companies because the startup company says, "I don't have time to hire IT people and set up software systems in my company. I'm trying to get this innovation to market. And I need things like CAD and PLM. I just don't need to own them. I need to use them." And so products like Onshape and Arena really are popular with startup companies. And plus, in a very unique way, they enable agile product development. And again, when I say agile product development, I mean develop hardware like you develop software. You might remember I said historically; hardware has been developed with a stage gate or waterfall model. Software used to be that way, but software has gone to an agile...almost exclusively gone to agile product development scrum-type methodologies. Could we bring those scrum methodologies back over to the hardware and develop hardware and software the same way? Yeah, that's very, very interesting to startup companies because it's all about speed. But it's pretty hard to do without SaaS because if you're going to all work on the same data and make new versions of the product every single day, well, then we need to have the data remain collected together. We can't have it distributed out on a whole bunch of desktop computers, or it just doesn't work. So I think that startup companies need to focus on what's important, the SaaS model. And the ability of the SaaS model to enable an agile scrum approach is absolutely critical to these startup companies, the entrepreneurs that are driving them. TROND: It's exciting your idea here of developing software, I mean, developing hardware at the speed, I guess, and with the methodology of software. Can you tell me more about what that actually would mean? What sort of differences are we talking about? I mean, for example, in terms of how quickly hardware would evolve or how well it would integrate with other systems. JIM: Some of the most important principles of agile or scrum product development are daily builds, a highly iterative approach that's not too deterministic upfront. In a waterfall method, by contrast, the first thing you do is determine the customer requirements because that's what's going to guide your whole project. In an agile world, you say, I'm not sure the customer even knows I'm inventing something new. The customer doesn't even know what I'm doing, but I'll need to show it to them. And they'll be able to react when I show it to them, but I want to show it to them every week or maybe even every day. I want to be able to interact either with the customer or with the product owner, which is a person who has been designated to represent the interest of the customer. And I want to every single day be able to show the progress you've made and test it. The thing that really burns people in a traditional waterfall process is you're given a set of requirements. You develop a perfect solution. Six months later, you show the perfect solution to the customer, and they say, "That's not what I meant. I know I said that, and you're complying with the words. You're not complying with the intent because the words didn't quite accurately capture the intent." So in this waterfall process, you lose tremendous amounts of time, sometimes by going back and starting over. In the agile project, you're showing them the digital models of the product every day, or perhaps every week, or even every month, if it makes more sense. But you're showing the customer your progress, and you're getting continuous feedback. And so you're evolving towards an ideal solution very, very quickly. Again, agile software developers have been doing this forever. But we haven't been doing it on the product side, the hardware side, because the tools really weren't set up for that. When software engineers adopted agile, they adopted a different set of tools. As hardware engineers are adopting agile, they're also saying, "We would need a different set of tools. They'd have to be cloud-based, SaaS-based so that we were always working on the same data, and we always had the latest version of everybody's contribution right there at our fingertips," as opposed to, say, checked out on their laptop, and they're on vacation this week. So it's an interesting time in the industry. And I think there's a real breakthrough coming, which will be enabled by SaaS. TROND: Is it frustrating sometimes that there's also, I mean, you've been talking now about the inspiration from the software side and innovation side perhaps over to the hardware side and more the industrial side. But isn't it frustrating sometimes that there is obviously a lot of history and experience on the industrial hardware side, and you have to teach new generations that some of these things are...they don't operate as quickly? So, yes, we can bring some methodologies there, but there are some constants, I guess, around infrastructure and factories that are a little bit harder to change. So as much as we would want all of it to be developed at the speed of software, there are some additional complexities. How do you think about that as, you know, you're running an industrial automation company? There is some value on the other side of this coin, you know, explaining and perhaps working together to smooth out the fact that we're dealing with a material reality here in most factories. JIM: Yeah, well, I mean, it is frustrating, but it's also what leads to the next generation of companies. Older companies may be entrenched in their working methods and resistant to change. Some little startup company comes along. They're not resistant at all. They're a blank sheet of paper. They can do whatever they want. They have no inertia, if you will, no organizational inertia. So they're very, very flexible. And these new companies not only have innovative new ideas, they have innovative new approaches, and innovative new processes, and innovative new tools. When we think of all these clean tech companies, startup companies developing electric vertical take-off and landing aircraft, for example, a company I'm thinking of there is Beta Air, or they're maybe producing electric batteries like a customer we have called XING Mobile, or ChargePoint producing chargers for Teslas and other electric automobiles, these companies are saying, "I don't have time to buy systems. I don't have time to build factories. What I want to do is bring smart people together, use tools that are already running in the cloud, come up with innovative new ideas, and pass them on to contract manufacturers. And I'll have a product in the market with very little capital in very little time. Later, I'll think about how to scale it up to be something much, much bigger." But, for example, the use of contract manufacturers is a huge breakthrough. It means that you don't have to go build a factory before you can build a product. You just set up a relationship with somebody who already has the factory and knows perfectly well how to build such a product. It's just your ideas in their factory. And so these kinds of disruptive approaches are very, very interesting. It causes pressure on the old companies to say, "Are we really just going to stand here and let them do this to us? Or should we open our mind a little bit and be more flexible to change?" TROND: Fascinating, Jim. It's certainly...it's a world with a lot of moving parts, the industrial one. So I thank you so much for this discussion. Is there anything you want to leave the listener with in terms of how they should view product lifecycle management as it's kind of moving into the next generation? JIM: Let me offer up one last idea, kind of a big idea, and that is the role the metaverse will play in the industrial world. When we think of metaverse today, we generally think of gaming or social media. And there are kind of cheesy metaverse ideas, you know, you can go play a game online in some artificial universe, and it's maybe fun, but it's not meaningful. But what we think we can do, what PTC is working on, is how can we take a setting that's real, could be a factory, could be a customer site, and how could we very quickly virtualize it into a metaverse so that we can then, from a remote place, enter that metaverse and interact with the people in it, the real people in it who have been virtualized but also the equipment and machinery? How can I go debug a problem in a factory by quickly turning the factory into a metaverse and joining the metaverse? How can I go solve a customer product problem by turning that customer site into a metaverse and joining them there? I mean, I think there are some really interesting ideas that PTC has been working on there. And again, it's not metaverse for gaming and entertainment; it's metaverse for industrial productivity. That's going to be a big thing. We're way ahead of the market there, but wait 5 or 10 years; everybody is going to be talking about this. TROND: So the industrial metaverse, Jim, that's going to be a real place. JIM: It's going to be a real place. Let me add we call it a pop-up metaverse because there are so many places in the world. I don't need to virtualize them all because most of them I don't care about. But if I build a certain type of machinery and I ship it to a customer, and it breaks down at the customer site, and I need to service it using product data, well, I can buy an airplane ticket and rental car, and I go to the customer site, and I'll be there in three days. Or I could ask the customer to whip out their smartphone, convert that situation into a pop-up metaverse and let me join into it. Five minutes later, I'm virtually standing next to the customer observing the problem and suggesting what they should do to try to correct it. It's a big, profound idea. I'm super excited about what it could do for us. TROND: Well, that's fascinating. I certainly think that the industrial metaverse sounds a lot more useful and perhaps even more exciting than the consumer versions of the metaverse that I've seen so far. JIM: Yeah, I totally agree with you. TROND: All right, Jim, it's been a fascinating discussion. Thanks for sharing this and taking the time. I hope you have a wonderful day, and thank you for your time. JIM: Yeah. Great, Trond. Thank you very much. PLM is obviously an exciting industry to me. You can probably sense that in my voice. It's a world that's really coming to light right now, a lot of growth, a lot of excitement with customers, a lot of big ideas, and I'm happy to have an opportunity to share them with you today. TROND: You have just listened to another episode of the Augmented Podcast with host Trond Arne Undheim. Our guest was Jim Heppelmann, CEO of PTC. In this conversation, we talked about Product Lifecycle Management's Momentum in manufacturing. My takeaway is that the momentum is clear, and one indication is the trend that PLM is being elevated to an enterprise system. But why is PLM such a hot market right now? One key word is greenhouse gas reduction because companies need a system of record to track their emissions, and this is not easy to do without a system in place. Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars. If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 93: Industry 4.0 Tools. Hopefully, you'll find something awesome in these or in other episodes, and if so, do let us know by messaging us. We would love to share your thoughts with other listeners. Augmented is presented by Tulip.co. Tulip is democratizing technology and empowering those closest to operations to solve problems. Tulip is also hiring, and you can find Tulip at tulip.co. Please share this show with colleagues who care about where the industry and especially where industrial tech is heading. To find us on social media is easy; we are Augmented Pod on LinkedIn and Twitter and Augmented Podcast on Facebook and YouTube. Augmented — industrial conversations that matter. See you next time. Special Guest: Jim Heppelmann.

Jim Neal on ALA Policy Corps and More!

©hat

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 4, 2022

Also check out the ALA Policy Corps as well as the ALA Advocacy website Sara: Welcome to another episode of Copyright Chat. It's been a hot minute sorry about that everybody but today we have a very special guest. We have Jim, Neil. Hi, Jim! Jim: Hi! How are you? Sara: Great! And Jim is the University library in emeritus at Columbia University. He also served as ALA President, and he received 2 awards from the ALA, the highest award on as an honorary member in 2022, as well as the L. Ray Patterson copyright award. Congratulations Jim! Jim: Thanks, Sara. Sara: So, Jim, I just wanted to get started. How did you get involved in copyright, as you're not a lawyer by training. But you've been such an advocate in the copyright field and I'm just curious how you got involved in in the beginning. Jim: Well, it it actually goes way back to the early 1970s. I graduated from Columbia School of Library Service at the end of 1972 and began working as a librarian the following year, and you'll recall this is when a lot of the discussion and debate began to revolve around the updating and modification of the US Copyright Law. And so my early professional career was advanced during this period of time, and I participated in many of the early discussions that led up to the 1976 copyright law. And so I was born in the context of fair use and the context of the exceptions, the limitations that define the ability of libraries to serve their communities. I hung out with copyright in a pretty low level way until the late 1980s, and it was at that time when so much of our work had become automated, and we're beginning to see the early publication of the things that we had historically acquired in print were now becoming available electronically, and of course that would explode in the 1990s. It was also the time that two other things happened. one in the mid-1980s, I'd become very interested in national information policy and my initial plunge into that was in the area of government information: Making sure that the information the Government produced was widely and openly available and accessible. But, in 1990s I also became Dean of University Libraries at Indiana University, and that was at that time that I recognized how important it was for up or major research libraries, and by extension all academic libraries, to play a significant role as new thinking about copyright began to evolve. I worked with the Association of College and Research Libraries. I worked with the Board of ARL, of which I was then a member, to really position us as associations that were part of the national debate around copyright. I also worked with Indiana University to create what I think was the first University library-based copyright advisory office at Indiana University based in Indianapolis and we hired Kenny Crews at that time to run that office. And so I began to meet with groups of librarians around the country, with different boards to develop strategic direction and actions around copyright. And when I made to move from Indiana to Johns Hopkins where we created a similar copyright office. I got a call from Washington asking me if I would be willing to join the US delegation that was going to go off to Geneva to participate in the World Intellectual Property Organization, a diplomatic conference negotiations on copyright, the basic objective being to update the international copyright law to reflect the digital and network environment in which we were operating. So I went off for 3 weeks to Geneva, was an advisor to the US delegation. I tried to get exceptions, limitations, and fair use into the discussion and the debate and that ultimately, of course, led to the adoption of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the United States. So that sort of explains the early involvement in participation. Sara: Sounds like it was an adventure beginning with the change to the Copyright Act in 1976 all the way through the Digital Millienium Copyright Act, which, of course, is still debated today. And the library exceptions which we're still trying to get at an international level today, so it's still ongoing. This work never ends, Jim, when is it going to end? Jim: I think it's perpetual. You know we play a lot of defense in the area of copyright not wanting to open up discussions about aspects of the copyright law that really benefit us and enable us to support our communities, but there's been so much effort to strengthen copyright on behalf of the copyright creators, and therefore we've been active in Washington for the last 20 years, trying to prevent unnecessary, inappropriate, and difficult to work with copyright changes coming out of Washington. We've also had to deal with several important initiatives at the State level during that period as well. And I think we generally have been have done okay. We tried to work with the creator community to update section 108 of the copyright law, which is that section which specifically provides the exceptions and limitations for libraries and artists enabling us to do things like inter library loan, and make preservation copies, and copies for users, and so forth. But we did not come out of that 3-year process. I was on the 108 study group. We did not come out of that process with an acceptable plan of action that would enable all interested parties to reopen 108 and make the necessary changes. And so that was an interesting process. and I learned a lot about how copyright works. And who is involved, and what the relationship is between the publishing industry ,the creator industry, and the copyright office in Washington. So we've done, I think, modestly well representing libraries, but there's so much more work to do. Sara: You mentioned the section 108 study, and I do assign that discussion document from the US Copyright office that came out of that study to my students and often they say to me, Professor Benson, why hasn't this happened? What's going on? There's a model law at the end. Why has this not happened? My perspective, and I wonder what your perspective is, is that potentially opening up section 108 could be problematic. Given what happened with some other portions of the Copyright Act, such as the TEACH Act that went South. I mean the TEACH Act is good in theory. If you're, unfamiliar with the TEACH Act it provides online opportunities for educational uses of certain works it's supposed to mirror the face-to-face teaching exception under Section 110(1). It's in section 110(2) of the Act, but unfortunately it became so cumbersome to apply that most universities, including mine, don't really exercise it. And I wonder what your perspective is about opening up section if we were to do that today? Jim: I think it would be very difficult and challenging, and we would put our ability to serve our communities at risk. One of the real important debates within the 3 years of the 108 study group was are digital works covered by exceptions and limitations in copyright? And what is the role and purpose of contracts, licenses that libraries sign with publishers and other creator companies. What rules govern the use of those materials? And I think it's clear from litigation and from legislation that there are really two streams of guidance. One is if it's in print, you're probably going to be able to apply the exceptions and limitations in section 108. If it's in digital form, you're probably going to be mandated to use the provisions of the contract, the license agreement that you sign. The public law of copyright versus the private law of contract. And the problems that I have with that are that it means that I put this in the area of social justice. I always have. If you have good lawyers, if you have a lot of money. If you have influence you have good connections, you're probably going to be able to negotiate a better contract, a more favorable contract, then the smaller instructions that don't have good legal counsel don't have a lot of money, and are gonna just defer to the contract that they sign. To me, that is an issue of social justice and it's on that basis that I fought this from the very beginning. I think we don't want to open one way. It could really create a real risk to our ability to serve our communities. We have seen other initiatives coming out of Washington besides the TEACH Act. We recently went through the crazy CASE Act deliberations, and worked very hard in this provision of creating a small claims court capacity for people to get sued for supposed violations of copyright and making sure that libraries and library staff were exempt from those lawsuits. So I think it's going to be a constant battle, and I think, with a new Congress coming on board in the fall—and we're not quite sure what the political makeup will be of the Congress at this point, but we have we have some thinking about that, will there be new initiatives to upset the balance that we've enjoyed in the copyright arena. We're also seeing more what I would call legal court cases around copyright, than historically, we experienced. And I think what we don't want to happen is that judicial decisions begin to define what copyright is in this country, and I think that's going to be a real challenge going forward. Copyright for most of the American population has been one of those “MEGO” topics—my eyes glaze over. People don't really know what it is or care about it, or know that they should care about it, and we've seen over the last decade or so copyright appearing on the front pages of newspapers and hitting the popular press in the areas of music and film, and art. And so people, I think, are a little bit more aware of copyright. But too often, I think they assume that they're protected because they hear the words fair use, and they think if they're not out there trying to make money and copying stuff willy nilly that somehow they're not subject to the provisions and the protections of copyright. So I think I think court cases could become more important going forward. Sara: Yeah, that's a really good point and one of those court cases was in Maryland recently, with the e-book legislation, where they attempted to impose reasonable terms for libraries on e-book licensing at the state law level, and it was deemed by the court to be in violation of copyright preemption. And I wonder what your views are on that. I mean. You mentioned licensing earlier, and it really is becoming one of these issues, especially for public libraries. It's a place where you know in order to serve their patrons public libraries really need to have access to these e-books, and yet the licensing terms can be quite expensive and limiting. Where do you see this going? Jim: Well, I think there's a whole series of issues that are bundled up in digital content and copyright, and we've mentioned two of them. The one you reference of which Maryland is probably the most celebrated. I use that word carefully, celebrated case, but it also has progressed in several other States, not successfully. And it's as you educate it's largely a public library issue because they want to provide a maximum access to their to their communities for the books that people want to read and material that people want to listen to. But if they can't, even buy this stuff if they can't even license the stuff under any terms, then I think it's a real problem. And so the first issue is, will libraries be able to license this stuff and can publishers block libraries from getting these materials? The second is the terms under which they license and onerous terms. A single reader at a time. Issues of cost. I could buy the book for $20 but to license, a copy, $80. Those are onerous financial and use terms. So that's one stream of concern. The second stream of concern is that we over many decades under section 108, have learned what we can do to in terms of supporting our community through inter library loan and preservation and copies for users under an analog, print-based environment. But when the contracts begin to limit what we can do. For example, we had, about 15 years ago, a major hassle when these licenses from major scholarly publishers said we could not loan things on inter-library loan internationally: we could only loan them to people or institutions in the United States. That was a shock and a signal that these license terms would continue to deteriorate and close up. And so, we fought that battle and several of the major publishers backed off. So I think we need to always be vigilant and we need to understand that contract is where we're playing ball today. And therefore we have to negotiate effectively and play hardball in order to get the best terms we can because of those uses of digital materials probably will not be covered under the exceptions of limitations and copyright. Sara: So where do you see opportunities? I mean, there is a really amazing law in Singapore, for instance, that says that you cannot contract away your copyright exceptions and limitations. Could we get that in the United States at least for libraries and archives? Jim: Well, that was our hope. About 2 years ago I convened a meeting in Washington at the ALA Washington Office, and this was the subject of our discussion is what is achievable. What are the domestic—t hat is national—opportunities and limitations, and what is happening internationally. And we had a representative there from the international federation of library associations who updated us on the Singapore Bill and the work that was going on in other countries around the world. It's very difficult. This was an issue that came up under 108. We tried to get a provision that said a contract could never undermine copyright. We could not give away the exceptions. of limitations under copyright and the publishers and the other members of the contact community wouldn't even talk about it. And so, therefore it's going to be not only a process challenge but it's going to be a very difficult political challenge, because, many of the leading legislators in Washington one don't understand the issue and two very often get financial support from the large media and publisher companies. So it's it's gonna be a tough battle. Sara: Just to point out a counterpoint to that I would point to the fact that with physical books we've been successfully using interlibrary Loan for years and years and we have not depleted the publishing market, and I understand the concern of publishers there, right, saying,wWell, now, interlibrary loan is baked into every contract. Fair use would be baked in if you're a really good negotiator. You should have in regardless. That gets to the social justice issue you mentioned earlier. But if everyone had it by default through libraries and archives in my opinion, publishers would still be making profits, and the reason is that inter library loan can never substitute for a subscription to an item right, and we do keep track, and we have to by law keep track of our inter library loan agreements and our lending and pay licensing fees. When we have hit a certain mark where, if we had otherwise just purchased the item we would not be able to loan it. So we could have similar things right in place for digital objects that we do for physical objects. And maybe this all could still operate with everyone on a fair level. I think the issue for me personally is that we like libraries are really not a fair level right, especially public libraries, where you have the demand of the public, and you're trying to serve your population who pays the taxes that puts the books in their hands right? And they have this expectation that not only are physical books available, e-books are going to be available, and with the pandemic and mobility issues, we have more and more instances where folks cannot come into the library in person, and we really should be providing those e-books to our communities. And so I I think we're at a real disadvantage. And this is where we're gonna need some strong advocacy right? And I think this is where you, Jim, have been so much at the forefront here, creating the ALA Policy Corps for that purpose. So I wanted to kind of switch gears and talk about you know why. Why did you create the ALA Policy Corps? What are the goals of that group? Jim: Let me let me make one other statement about digital lending? We I think, from a published perspective it's a slippery slope, I think, by having to negotiate those terms in a contract it does give publishers some leverage in terms of a price. So I think I think, there's a real interest in preserving that control within the publisher community. We saw we had some recent experience with that under control digital lending where we have tried to build some responsible approaches to digital lending interlock very loan and tried to extend that under the impact of Covid and have to hold back already. if you will post Covid. But we have seen the library community through the Internet Archive end up in court of that issue. So I think libraries and universities and communities are fearful of litigation. And are going to probably take a more conservative approach. Not go out there and fight the battle, which I think has to happen and big basically give in to the publishers on this. But I think court cases hopefully will come along that might help us in this area. Policy Corps. As I mentioned, I started my work, and national information policy in the in the area of government information. In the mid 1990s several universities, including the one where I was, Penn State, was experiencing FBI increase about materials being requested by international students who were studying at our universities. This was my introduction to issues around privacy. And then, after 911 of the U.S.A. Patriot Act introduce a set of controls interventions by legal authorities that, we're severely problematic and difficult for libraries, and I became very active on that issue. Advising libraries, giving workshops, going public, with my opposition, and at that same time I became very involved in the work of the freedom to read Foundation, where I've sort of served on that board for many years and have become involved in national intellectual freedom debates. And so all of this experience, including my work, with copyright demonstrated to me how important it is for the library community to have authoritative expert voices at the table. And historically we've had a few individuals who have been willing to keep up on a particular policy issue, who have been willing to get at the table and fight the battle by testifying before committees at the state the national level developing, op-ed pieces, editorial pieces for publication in the press sitting down with partners to develop political strategies, and any of those individuals have been retiring over the last decade, and so I felt we really need to develop an ongoing cohort of individuals are truly committed to working on behalf of the library communities developing information policy areas. And so we agreed to begin it on an experimental basis, and we recruited, I think, 12 individuals that first year on a competitive basis, and they've been working over the last 3 to 4 years developing their knowledge of their policy interest area. But more importantly, developing the skills and understanding to be an effective advocate. And we have now have 4 more cohorts of Policy Corps people. Next year we'll be looking at how we proceed with the fifth cohort. Covid was a challenging time for us with the policy corps because of the inability to bring people together. we're now beginning to do that again. and so I'm hopeful that we can continue to develop a very strong representation for library leaders in the information policy area. The other thing we worked on in parallel was what I call the National Advocacy Network, to try to get a representative, at least one representative for the library community in each of the 435 Congressional districts. So when something came up in Washington, where we really needed advocacy at the local level, so convince our members of Congress Representatives and our Senators that they needed to support our interests in these debates, we would have be on the ground if you will grassroots capacity to influence their thinking. so I'm hoping that over time, and as we break out from Covid, the combination of the policy core and the national advocacy network will provide benefits to the library community it's wonderful program, and I think we've seen quite a bit of movement there. Sara: Can you talk about some of the successes we've had through the Policy Corps? I'm a member of the third cohort and I've done quite a few webinars and published updates about the CASE Act. What are some of the other things that we've seen come out of the policy core? Jim: Well, I think many of the members of the policy core have been very active, educating their colleagues at the local and national level, either through, as you said, webinars, writing for the field, and so forth. But as importantly, if not more importantly, some of the policy corps members have been very active with their with their local Congress people. Their representatives and their senators that's very important. A few have been going to Washington to meet with various groups and committees to try to influence funding and influence legislation that we care about. Several of them very active in writing op-ed pieces for their local newspapers. Several have been testified at the State level before State legislatures. Another area that we have seen a real challenge over the last several years, and I think it's gonna get very difficult going forward is the whole area around banning books in libraries. It's perhaps most active in schools, but also is now beginning to play out in public libraries. And I think that's been another area where the policy corps has been very active and trying to influence understanding and to have impact on some of these really egregious actions on the part of local politicians. So overall I think the policy corps has been successful. We've developed our skills. And now that has to translate into real action at the State and Federal level. Sara: Yeah, it's a great point. We really have to do more than talk about things. We have to take some action and meet with our representatives. What advice do you have for folks listening to this podcast maybe they're not members of the ALA Policy Corps but they want to take action as well, what could they do? Jim: Well, I think it's very important to become aware of, and to understand the information policy issues that we're dealing with and the ALA office. That website is a great source of information there are lots of webinars. There's this podcast. There are great sources of information to educate oneself. There's literature, books, and articles that's half the story. The other half is being confident. Knowing what type of actions have impact. How do you influence people's understanding and actions and that's very important. I think, at state level of ALA—the American Library Association—and the library community in general is really strengthened by State chapters. There are, I think, 56 regional chapters. Most of them state-based that provide lots of legislative training. Lots of policy updating, and I think that's a great place for people to begin that work to get involved at the State level to join their committees on legislation to go to their State legislative days and hopefully in the future to go to the national legislative days. But to keep, continue to be educated and open to training, which I think is critical to success. Sara: I agree, and also not to feel that some of these calls for action are not for you. The ALA is often saying, you know, respond to this. Talk to your legislators about this issue, and sometimes people think well someone else will do it right. But getting on the phone, and you know calling up your local congressperson's office, and and saying, you know I work at this library. And this matters to me because of this those kinds of those kinds of outreach efforts do make a difference, and the more you do it the more they're going to be familiar with who you are, and you're gonna create those relationships. So, not being afraid to pick up the phone, write an email message. Write a handwritten letter, you know, whatever the whatever it may be, or sign a petition. Jim: All of those things can really help and add up yeah there's a couple other things that I really think it's important to do. I think each library should know who the staff people are, in these Congressional offices, both the staff person in Washington and the Staff office at the local level. Know those people. They're the ones who influence the actions of their of their Senators at their representatives. So, get to know the staff. Secondly, invite the Congressperson to the library. Get them there have an event where they can be visible. They can be seen in a very favorable light by the voters in that community, and they can begin to identify with you library. That's really, really critical and I think those are those are steps that most libraries can take pretty easily, and I would encourage all libraries to leverage staff to do that. Sara: Those are great points. And actually the point about staff is so crucial. When I went to the ALA day on the hill, we were speaking with a Congressperson's staff member. And one thing we learned when speaking with this delightful young woman was that she worked in a library in college, and immediately it changed the tone of the conversation because she had firsthand knowledge of how important libraries are, how much we do for our community, and what a wonderful place it is to work right. And so she didn't take much convincing when we're asking for this funding. It's so important to kind of get those stories from people because most folks have connections to libraries. It's not a hard sell when you ask them you know what's, your experience with libraries, because they either went to a local library. I can't tell you, how many times, I take my daughter to the library, and we come home with bushels of books because she's such an avid reader, but as a mom that is an important thing for me and so people have those connections either through, you know, working in a library, going to the library, their university library, all of those different things. So getting to know those making those personal connections is so important. Jim: Yes, we've talked a lot about policy, issues, but when it really comes down to it. the overriding of legislative matter that most libraries deal with both at the local and State and Federal level is funding And so, having a good understanding of what finding bills are being considered. What the history has been of your representatives support for library funding. Have success stories available. How has you Library made a difference in the quality of research in the University? The quality of education in the school people be able to get jobs in the by working with the public library. All those examples and success stories can be very, very influential, because most Representatives and senators care about the economy. And the degree to which people help, at which the library helps people find jobs helps people connect I think, can be really really powerful. so never, never forget success stories, particularly as it impacts funding debates. Sara: Great point. And I really have enjoyed this conversation with you today. I hope the listeners have enjoyed it well, and we really encourage you to check out the ALA Policy Information and information about the Policy Corps if you're interested and want to get involved. We are always happy to chat about that some more. But thanks so much for joining me today, Jim it's been a very fun conversation. Jim: Thanks, Sarah. It's been a great opportunity to talk about things alright see you next time

Garlow, Jim - Well Versed/The Garlow Perspective (recap of Future Conference)

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 29, 2022 21:04

The Co-Founder of the ministry of Well Versed, heard on The Garlow Perspective on Faith Radio, Jim Garlow, provided a review of the Future Conference, which was held July 20-22, 2022 in Arlington, VA and streamed online. He also commented on current developments that were consistent with topics covered at the conference. You can learn more at wellversedworld.org.

co founders va arlington versed faith radio jim garlow future conference garlow jim well

Garlow, Jim - Well Versed/The Garlow Perspective (recap of Future Conference)

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 29, 2022 21:04

co founders va arlington versed faith radio jim garlow future conference garlow jim well

Garlow, Jim - Well Versed/The Garlow Perspective (Future Conference)

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 15, 2022 23:29

Jim Garlow, Co-Founder of the ministry of Well Versed, heard on The Garlow Perspective on Faith Radio, provided Biblical insight on current events and previewed the Future Conference, July 20-22, 2022, originating from Arlington, VA and streamed online. You can learn more at wellversedworld.org.

co founders biblical va arlington versed faith radio jim garlow future conference garlow jim well

Garlow, Jim - Well Versed/The Garlow Perspective (Future Conference)

@BEERISAC: CPS/ICS Security Podcast Playlist

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 15, 2022 23:29

co founders biblical va arlington versed faith radio jim garlow future conference garlow jim well

Growing Cybersecurity Threats and Mitigation Approaches Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 17, 2022 12:44

Podcast: Emerson Automation ExpertsEpisode: Growing Cybersecurity Threats and Mitigation Approaches PodcastPub date: 2022-06-15Cybersecurity was a big topic at the 2022 ARC Industry Forum in Orlando, Florida. While there, I had the opportunity to sit down and catch up with Emerson's Director of Cybersecurity, Mike Lester. We discussed many of the issues and growing threats companies face, as they try to maintain strong cybersecurity postures. Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet to becoming cyber-secure and maintaining strong defenses. Mike offers guidance on ways to develop a strong culture and address these challenges over time. Visit the Cybersecurity section on Emerson.com and subscribe to our continuing series of Emerson Automation Experts podcasts. Transcript Jim: Hi, everyone. This is Jim Cahill with another “Emerson Automation Experts” podcast. Today, I’m here at the 2022 ARC Forum in Orlando, and joined by Emerson’s director of cybersecurity, Mike Lester, to discuss some of the latest happenings in cybersecurity. Welcome, Mike. Mike: Thanks, Jim. Jim: Well, let’s get everyone grounded with a little bit of your background, and path to your current role here at Emerson. Mike: Sure, Jim. So, I’ll start way back in the Air Force, I was an aircraft mechanic back from 1985. so I did that for 12 years and then moved into communications, which was networking, data center operations, cybersecurity, you name it, and we did it from a technology perspective. And then after doing that for 10 years, I moved into Emerson as the operations manager for IT in the Rosemount twin cities factories, and helped, you know, maintain the factories, and networks, and systems there. Then moving into information security role for the then Process group. And then in 2017, moving into the current role for product security in the technology arm of the organization today, where I get to interact with customers, and all the business units around cybersecurity strategy, as well as technologies and governance. Jim: Well, that sounds like a really strong background, and I know cybersecurity is one of the key topic areas here at the conference this week. So why does cybersecurity remain such a large concern in the critical infrastructure space? Mike: Jim, there’s some obvious reasons and responses here, like, ever-increasing threats and successful attacks against critical infrastructure targets. Cybersecurity remains a large concern because there’s been a clear shift from gang-related cyberattacks seeking financial gain, to cyber as a fifth element of war with all nature of attacks between different threat actors, nation-states to nation-state saboteurs, to nation-state to private industry and in critical infrastructure sectors. A good example of this dynamic is Russia launching cyberattacks against Ukraine, days before the kinetic attacks began. Followed by that, was a global community of independent volunteer hackers that attacked and provided intelligence to the world about where oligarchs were docking their yachts, and much more direct, defensive, and offensive. Essentially crowdsourcing cyber warfare without anybody asking them to do it. Likewise, there’d been malicious threat actors like Anonymous, since most people are familiar with them, who chose sides in the cyber warfare effort. The threats are real, and we need to begin putting them into context in order to analyze risk with trained professionals in this space as opposed to some historically dismissive behavior or thinking that it can never happen. Jim: Yeah. It sounds like the degree of difficulty for companies to deal with it has gone way up, so there’s more that needs to be done. So I guess, given the strategic importance of critical infrastructure like manufacturing, what are the key areas of concern? Mike: Safety is always at the top of the list for concerns, but I would also couple this with the additional consequences of operational disruptions, leading to loss of revenue, supply chain disruption, all the way through to potential extreme or extended social and national capability disruptions, from lack of resiliency in cybersecurity and operations. Look, we depend on a Jenga stack of people, processes, and technology to live our daily lives with electronic everything. This includes our homes, our work, grocery stores, fuel, our national security, our entire way of life is really dependent on the continued and successful operation of critical infrastructure. And if I extend that Jenga analogy, you know, if you take the wrong block out, the entire structure can fail. And we’ve seen this, some blocks have been taken out or partial collapses in many places. But when we look at the cases like Venezuela and Haiti, where power outages lasted for extended periods of time, there were significant disruptions across the spectrum of what we would consider normal society and livelihood capabilities. We need to be cognizant of the possible, and engineer capabilities in critical infrastructure to match the risk. This may seem a bit doom and gloom but, you know, in reality, they are possible in civilization. We need to manage the risk appropriately in a way that equals a holistic capability. We need to work collaboratively and recognize the role that we have. Jim: I think that Jenga analogy is a real good one and gives people a picture of the challenges that we face in that. So what are some of the root causes of these points of concern? Mike: You know, it might be a little unexpected, but, you know, and I’m not gonna go point to a particular control or get dived down into the real technical details, recognizing that in reality, we have imperfect systems, and devices operated by imperfect processes, and often undertrained, imperfect people, we must look across the spectrum to determine how we can prioritize efforts in the right place. I believe this confusion or varying opinions to achieve better levels of cybersecurity, coupled with an extreme shortage in appropriate talent in the workforce, have led the industry to focus on a silver bullet approach primarily with technology solutions, and a market that fuels this approach. And we are misaligned through focus on discrete objectives, rather than industry, regional, national, company-strategic objectives that achieve outcome-based risk management, as opposed to compliance-oriented risk management that’s failed us for decades. A good example of this is antivirus or anti-malware, everybody’s familiar with that, being a mandatory compliance requirement for audits. When in reality, when it finds malware, it’s already in your environment, and likely active. Anti-malware is known as a reactive tool in the cybersecurity professional space, and what we should be focusing on is preventing that malware from getting into our environments in a proactive manner. Jim: Well, I guess we all wish there was a silver bullet to handle it, but much like other things, safety, there is no single thing that just makes everything perfect for you. So what can be done to mitigate these cybersecurity risks and threats? Mike: There’s a spectrum of thing, but it really equals work. Lots of work, with appropriate investment strategies, and dedicated budgeting. Threats can really only be addressed by more cyber-resilient and capable products, systems, services, supply chains, and operations. This requires cybersecurity skill and expertise across all business functional areas, similar to finance, or legal. Everyone in the company has a fiduciary expectation and responsibilities that they must meet. They don’t need to be a finance major, or certified public accountant, or a CFO. More directly, I always like to start with an assessment for your operations to determine gaps and create a plan to remediate those in a prioritized manner. We need to expand this thought process to all aspects of our business and across all functions if we’re gonna get beyond compliance to higher levels of maturity and capability. It’s not gonna be easy, and it’ll likely stretch, or break most paradigms of how to approach holistic cybersecurity that can achieve cyber and operational resiliency to the levels needed in our industries, and for future opportunities in automation and control. Jim: Well, yeah. It does sound like when you’re trying to tackle a very difficult problem, starting with the assessment and really prioritizing the things that need to be done, so it just doesn’t feel overwhelming. It seems like that’s a very logical approach to attack this very difficult problem. So what are your top recommendations to manufacturers and producers to strengthen their cyber defenses? Mike: Often we’re gonna be looking for…customers may be looking for, or other business folks may be looking for a list, “Here’s my checklist of things to do.” But really what it comes down to is, work with industry experts and cybersecurity partners, get an outside perspective, or a gap analysis. Cybersecurity in general from a people, process, and technology perspective, has very fast-paced rate of change across a full landscape. So it’s likely what was known about your operations last year, or when it was implemented, they’re stale data points. You know, looking to…or working with partners to build cybersecurity and operation resiliency in business investments, processes, implementations, etc., you know, with a prioritized business risk-based approach, is a really good start. Often, conversations around achieving cybersecurity devolve into technology and leverage, versus how to accomplish the right proactive or active defense against threats from the nation-state actors I spoke about earlier on, you know, an active cyber warfare landscape. I’m not saying this really to, you know, instill fear, uncertainty, or doubt, or what we commonly hear as FUD, but to really speak truth about what we face as an industry and as a society. Technology changes to improve cybersecurity capabilities will always be slow to implement and embed into systems and devices that control safety, operations, and the critical infrastructure segments. We’ve gotta understand the spectrum of cybersecurity architecture’s capabilities and operations that can enable resilient operations and fast recovery from what seems to be an inevitable incident that impacts manufacturers and producers. Jim: Well, I think that’s some good guidance of how to think about it and approach it. So where can our listeners go to learn more about ways to build their cybersecurity posture and culture? Mike: There’s a lot of good resources. I like to point folks, if they wanna be vendor-agnostic or they don’t…maybe they’re looking at vendors and asking whether we’re gonna sell them the silver bullet approach, you know, we can use resources like the national government’s U.S. Department of Homeland Security in the U.S., the Cyber and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA), or the UK’s National Cybersecurity Centre, and others, you know. Most recently, Emerson’s partner Dragos, launched a program called OT-CERT. That provides free resources for companies who may not have the expertise available to help them understand the complex space of cybersecurity, and how to mature their programs, or even initialize their programs. Emerson also has a portfolio of cybersecurity capabilities like assessments, products, and services that focus on enabling secure customer operations. The bottom line is we really like to work with our customers and achieve their cybersecurity, and ultimately their business objectives. Jim: Well, that’s a great summary of places to go for more information, and I’ll add a link to the cybersecurity section on emerson.com for more on the tools and solutions to help our listeners in their cybersecurity efforts. Well, Mike, I wanna thank you for joining us today. I hope our listeners got as much out of this as I did. Mike: Thanks, Jim. Appreciate you having me.The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Emerson Team, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.

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Garlow, Jim - Well Versed/The Garlow Perspective NRB 2022

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 11, 2022 18:28

Jim Garlow, the CEO and Founder of the ministry of Well Versed, Co-Founder of the World Prayer Network, and the voice of The Garlow Perspective, at NRB 2022, provided Biblical perspective on world events, including concerns about the rise of globalism and how it could affect Christians. You can learn more at wellversedworld.org.

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Jim White – Fishnure

Off-the-Grid Biz Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 2, 2022 19:45

Jim White is the creator of Fishnure, located in Charlotte, North Carolina. Fishnure manufactures and markets organic fertilizer including both solid fertilizer and liquid. Checkout more about Fishnure's quality products and daily updates, please checkout their website and active twitter account, as listed below! Website - https://www.fishnure.com/ Twitter - @fishnure Show Notes Agricultural Background: Beginning of Fishnure Finding Our First Customers Natural vs. Chemical Fertilizer Different Types of Products We Offer Solid vs. Liquid Fertilizer How COVID Impacted Our Business Importance of Sustainability Why Just Labeling Fertilizer As “Organic” Doesn't Mean It's Good Fishnure's Future: Heading In The Right Direction Jim's Business Advice to Those Starting A Business Full Transcription Jim: We had a pepper grower up in Minnesota who grew his entire crop with Fishnure. And then he set up a control between one of the biggest sellers, Miracle-Gro and Fishnure. So we had one batch of plants that were fed Miracle-Gro the other batch was Fishnure. Miracle-Gro got two treatments during the year, Fishnure only one. Fishnure came out with 8% production. Podcast Intro: If you're someone who refuses to go along to get along, if you question whether the status quo was good enough for you and your family. If you want to leave this world better off than you found it and you consider independence a sacred thing. You may be a prepper, a gardener, a homesteader, a survivalist, or a farmer or rancher, an environmentalist or a rugged outdoorsman. We are here to celebrate you whether you're looking to improve your maverick business or to find out more about the latest products and services available to the weekend rebel. From selling chicken eggs online, to building up your food storage or collecting handmade soap.This show is for those who choose the road less traveled the road to self-reliance for those that are living a daring adventure, life off the grid. Brian: Jim White is the creator of Fishnure, located in Charlotte, North Carolina. Fishnure manufactures and markets organic fertilizer including both solid fertilizer and liquid. Fishnure is made by composting solid fish manure is filtered to get solid manure free from unwanted materials and combined with the carbon source clay inoculants and then decomposed to form a humus compost. Jim is a serial entrepreneur who has created numerous computer software production management businesses. He also has a significant background in statistics and agriculture. Jim White, welcome to The Off-the-Grid Biz Podcast. Jim: Hey, thank you. Brian: So how did you get into Fishnure, tell us that story? Jim: Well, I created a company that monitors agricultural production. In other words, in the delta, catfish production is big and a farmer may have 100 ponds. And we developed a wireless solar power monitoring and control system that will control the environment and every pond. So that's how Fishnure came because I was interested in some of the customers were using the connection from the fish production to growing plants, which is what aquaponics is, and that's what started it. Brian: Oh, wow. So how did you find your first customers? Jim: We advertised I think it was on Craigslist. And that started then we sold a lot on our website, and then move to Amazon, which is the main seller right now. Brian: How long ago was that, when did you first start the whole process? Jim: It's been seven years. Brian: Excellent. Where are you finding most of your customers right now or via Amazon? Jim: Right. Brian: Great. Do you do any other sort of outreach or marketing to bring in? Jim: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we use Twitter. We tweet several 100 tweets a day. The website, I write a lot of articles and publish those and email marketing the whole bit.

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Jim Kalbach on Jobs to Be Done

The Informed Life

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 18, 2021 31:38 Transcription Available

Jim Kalbach is the chief evangelist at MURAL, a leading provider of online visual collaboration software. He's the author of Designing Web Navigation (O'Reilly, 2007), Mapping Experiences (O'Reilly, 2016), and his latest, The Jobs to Be Done Playbook (Rosenfeld, 2020). In this conversation, we dive into Jobs to Be Done, how it relates to design, and how jobs can create an “out of body experience” for organizations. Listen to the show Download episode 66 Show notes @JimKalbach on Twitter Jim Kalbach on LinkedIn MURAL The Jobs to Be Done Playbook by Jim Kalbach Mapping Experiences: A Complete Guide to Creating Value through Journeys, Blueprints, and Diagrams by Jim Kalbach Designing Web Navigation: Optimizing the User Experience by Jim Kalbach JTBD Toolkit Book Notes: “The Jobs To Be Done Playbook” by Jorge Arango Know Your Customers' “Jobs to Be Done” by Clayton M. Christensen, Taddy Hall, Karen Dillon, and David S. Duncan How We Align Product Development with Jobs To Be Done at MURAL by Agustin Soler The JTBD toolkit Competing Against Luck: The Story of Innovation and Customer Choice by Clayton M. Christensen, Taddy Hall, Karen Dillon, and David S. Duncan Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript Jorge: Jim, welcome to the show. Jim: Hey, great to be here. Thanks for having me, Jorge. Jorge: Well, I'm very excited to have you. Not only have you and I been friends for a long time, but you also wrote a book last year that I liked a lot, and I actually wrote about it in my blog. I'm excited to talk with you about the book and about what you're up to. So, for folks who might not know you, can you please introduce yourself? About Jim Jim: Yeah, sure! Hey everybody, Jim Kalbach here. Calling in from Jersey City, New Jersey, where I'm originally from, on the east coast. I moved to Germany for a long time. I lived in Germany for about 14 years and then came back to the U. S. But I have a background in information science and worked as an information architect for a long time, getting into topics around usability and UX. I have a very strong classic kind of design — product design — background. But I was always interested in research and strategic aspects of design and innovation. And then I got exposed to Jobs to Be Done around 2003, and always tried to incorporate aspects of that in my work here and there. Just kind of testing the waters. So, I've been looking at Jobs to Be Done for a while now, actually, in my design roles, but then also beyond that as well too. Jorge: You're currently at MURAL, right? Jim: Correct. Yeah, I'm the Chief Evangelist at MURAL. I've been with that company for six and a half years now. I was employee number 12 and through the pandemic, our business has expanded greatly. It's just… things have just exploded in a good way. Of course, we believe we have a tool — a virtual whiteboard — we have a tool that can help people. You know, through the pandemic, it was great to see our mission that we had been building up for five years before the pandemic then suddenly become hyper-relevant, and people reaching out and grabbing us by the collar and saying, "thank you for saving my project!" So that was just really fulfilling to see our mission, become hyper relevant. But again, at the same time, it was absolutely fantastic for our business. And now we're like 600 people in the company. It's crazy how much we've grown. I started and I built up the customer success team and the support team here at MURAL. So, it was a little bit of shift from my background in product design when I got to MURAL. But then as we scaled, I wasn't the right person to scale a global customer success team. So, I moved over into what we're calling "Chief Evangelist" and it's basically a lot of outreach, writing, speaking onstage, doing some research, building relationships with our biggest and best customers, but also just reaching out to the community in general. So, it's a really great role for me to be in here at MURAL. Jorge: You alluded to Jobs to Be Done, which is the subject of your latest book, the one that we were talking about earlier. I'm wondering about Jobs to Be Done at MURAL. And I remember when I first used MURAL, it seemed to me to be a tool that was looking to replicate the whiteboard. And with the pandemic we've been unable to access physical whiteboards, and MURAL has filled in the gap, right? So how would you describe the job that MURAL does for teams? JTBD at MURAL Jim: It's a really good question, and I've been chewing on that for a very long time. Before I answer that, I just want to mention that Jobs to Be Done at MURAL… haven't been very overt about it. It's not like we have a Jobs to Be Done round table and every week we do research and things like that. But it's there, and it's been in the background lurking behind… even our support team. Did a session with our support team, how Jobs to Be Done could help them in their work. Our head of product, there's a nice blog post out there where he talks about Jobs to Be Done in guiding the roadmap, and things like that. So, it's been around, but it's kind of like where we've been soaking in it rather than having a Jobs to Be Done research effort or explicit team around it. And in doing that kind of ongoing work, I've been really thinking about what are the Jobs to Be Done of MURAL. And it's a little tricky. Because it's a whiteboard, it's a blank canvas. It's… you know, Jorge, I think a MURAL almost as a platform. A lot of times you buy a piece of software and you expect the software to tell you what you can do, and what you can't do, right? There's a workflow involved. There are steps involved, and that kind of thing. But with MURAL, it's like you can do anything that your imagination can bring to a whiteboard with it. So, I really think it's almost like a platform that you can develop on. And what can you develop? And the answer is, "yes!" It's like, what can you visualize? Then you can do it on MURAL. So, it makes the answer to the question, "what's the job-to-be-done?" really slippery. But it also then puts out, the way that I've been approaching it, is looking at a constellation of jobs. And by the way, that's one of the first things that you need to do when you work with Jobs to Be Done is map out what I call your jobs landscape. Because it's not uncommon that organizations and businesses are targeted at a constellation of jobs, particularly in software. Software gets multiple jobs done. And one of the first things you have to do is map out your jobs. And that… it's not just one dimensional, it's actually hierarchical; that there are jobs and smaller jobs that roll up to higher jobs. So, you end up with this landscape of jobs. And in MURAL, it can just go on and on and on. Because we're basically an open-source development platform that is as limited as your own imagination. But I think where we started and the jobs that we're looking to target first are things around like running a collaboration session with your team at work, because we're all about collaboration and we want to be relevant in the workplace, although we have a lot of educational institutions as well, too. It's really about running a collaboration session with your team, is kind of a high-level job. You can go up from there and even say, solve problems together visually. Could be even a higher level… that's really abstract though. And if you were to research that using the Jobs to Be Done lens, which you could, you would come up with something more abstract. So, I usually try to break that down into things like running a collaboration session. But we also have people running projects. How do people run projects and where does MURAL fit into that job to be done? Teaching a course! People teach, as you know, MURAL is a platform to teach from as well, too. Teaching a course is another big use case that we tend to target as well too. So, I have about… right now, I have about four or five jobs at that level. The main one though, is really around collaboration. It's collaborating as a team at work, right? And what is the beginning, middle, and end of that? And I've found that if you map that out, you can take a lot of the situations that people come to MURAL with and you can fit it into that beginning, middle and end of collaborating at work. The jobs of JTBD Jorge: We're talking about this kind of in the abstract and I'm assuming that folks listening in know what we mean when we say Jobs to Be Done. Before we started recording, you were mentioning that you've done dozens of podcast interviews about this, so I'm not going to ask you the "what is Jobs to Be Done?" question. I'll leave that up to listeners. If they haven't heard about it, it's worth your while. But you just now mentioned that something that's been on my mind in using Jobs to Be Done in my own work. And it's a fact that some of the definitions of a job-to-be-done can get quite abstract. And at that point, their utility stops being evident to team members. So, I'm wondering the meta-question: what do you see the jobs of Jobs to Be Done? Like, what does Jobs to Be Done buy a team? Jim: Yeah! I think it's focus in innovation efforts. I really see Jobs to Be Done as an innovation framework. And innovation occurring at any level. You want to innovate your product or your solution, you want to innovate your go to market motions as well, too? But it could be, we want to expand our company. So, it works at different levels, right? The first question that I always teach people to answer in defining the jobs that they're going to be targeting is, "where do you want to innovate?" And once you're able to answer that question, what Jobs to Be Done brings is a lot of focus and clarity to that. Because then there's a structured language behind Jobs to Be Done. And that's what I try put out in the first couple of chapters in my book is, what's the language around Jobs to Be Done to describe our innovation target, but to describe it in human terms. In human terms, right? And notice I didn't say "user" or "customer" or "prospect" or "target market. " It's human terms. It's understanding within that space, once you define your innovation target, what do human beings want? And trying to find that out. It's different than ethnography though, because we're not going out and doing this very grounded, bottoms-up… there is some bottoms-up work to it, but you're not just trying to understand everything about their lives because you've defined your frame of innovation. It's very specific in the human-based information that you're extracting from it. So, it's very focused and it's very lean in getting out human insight that then becomes opportunity for innovation. Jorge: When you say, "human terms", I hear that as human terms in distinction to the drivers of an impersonal system, such as the organization or the market or what have you, right? Jim: Or the product or the solution. Right! And one of the great benefits of the language of Jobs to Be Done is that it expunges all of that from your vernacular. That when you're talking and working with Jobs to Be Done, you're not allowed to refer to any technology, solutions, brands, or even methods. So, Agile is a method. Design thinking is a method. You wouldn't write that down when you're notating Jobs to Be Done. You wouldn't refer to any of those things. You're trying to describe human needs… a very specific description of human needs. Again, it's not this ethnographic type of thing. You just want to go in and get what you want and get out. It's very surgical in that sense. But you're describing it in a way that is independent of yourself, because organizations are really good at looking at human beings through the lens of their own brand and their solution. We looked down at the market and we say, "those are users. Those are customers. That's a buying behavior. That's a user behavior. We have a solution. Click the button! Optimize conversion rates!" That's about you. Let's be serious here. A customer journey map and a lot of that stuff, that's about you and your organization. That's not about human beings. Jobs to Be Done explicitly puts that to the side and then you're asking yourself, "well, how do I describe that then? How do I describe what people want and what they're trying to get done?" And Jobs to Be Done gives you way to do that. Once you put all that other stuff to the side, you can still — in a very structured, targeted and focused way — you can describe human behavior. Very specific types of human behavior. JTBD for the reluctant Jorge: When you say innovation… when anyone says innovation, one of the things that I hear is change. So, we have a current state in which we're doing things a certain way, and we want to change that to a different state in which we're doing things differently. Or our product looks different in the market. And innovation has kind of a positive tinge to it, whereas change is more ambiguous, right? And a lot of folks are resistant to change internally in organizations. I'm wondering about how you might explain the value of Jobs to Be Done to reluctant stakeholders or to folks who may not be fully on board with driving some kind of change? Jim: It's a really good point and in fact after we launched the book, I created an online resource called the Jobs to Be Done toolkit, jtbdtoolkit.com. And we were talking about exactly this. Like, who are we targeting? And we ultimately threw away roles and labels and ended up with changemakers. We're targeting changemakers in organizations because of the question that you just asked is that some stakeholders are resistant to change, you're right. But other people in organizations want change, right? They see their own brand or solution on the market. Or they see the way that they're working internally and they say, "we have to change. " And I think a lot of that is driven by the world we live in. And I don't want to say, '"now it's different than in the past!" But there are specific you know, things that are unique about today's world. Hyper-connected containerization and productization around the world, global economies and talent pools and things like that. There is the different, more complex business world that businesses face these days. And I would argue that it puts a lot more power in consumer hands than even just two or three decades ago. We're all on a burning platform because any consumer can rate you, and any consumer can go to a competitor with one click of a button. So, I think it changes the equation of business from the middle of the last century. I think that's the motivation for change, in general. And stakeholders that don't get it, well, you know what? They're going to be left behind, Jorge, first of all. Because there are lots of statistics like the list of customers of companies on the S&P 500 list is… their duration on that list is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. You know, IBM is IBM and it'll be IBM forever. It's like, "well, man, you know, maybe it won't right?" Because disruption is happening at a quicker rate as well too. So, I think the imperative is there from the way that things work in general to make change, and yeah — some people will be resistant to that, I agree. I think the thing that's different about Jobs to Be Done, is it's very no-nonsense and the focus and the clarity that it brings… and it also speaks a business language to businesspeople on their own terms. I think it's more appealing than other change mechanisms. Like Design Thinking. People have used Design Thinking to affect change to their organizations as well too, but a lot of people react to that: "I'm not a designer. Design is aesthetics. Why would I want to think like a designer?" You know, and things like that. So, there might be a lot of overlap of Jobs to Be Done with other fields, like Design Thinking. And there is. But it's the way that it does it that I think actually appeals to those stubborn people better than some of the other approaches. And I'm not saying throw away Design Thinking; I teach Design Thinking, you know? So, I'm not saying throw that away, but I think we need a new arsenal of conversation styles and languages because of the question that you asked that some people are stubborn, right? And I think Jobs to Be Done helps overcome that stubbornness. Exactly that. That's exactly my attraction to Jobs to Be Done, Jorge. Creating an out-of-body experience Jorge: One of the interesting things about what you're saying here is that it's all very self-consistent, in that at the root of the approach is reframing our offerings from the perspective of the people who are benefiting or who are getting value from our offerings, whether they be customers or end-users or what have you. And that requires that we as a team, as an organization, step outside of our own needs, right? Jim: Correct. Jorge: And what you're saying here is that this applies not only to the product or the initiative that we're undertaking, but to ourselves. Like, our own perception of who we are is up for questioning here. Jim: That is absolutely correct. And one way that I like to describe the reason and the benefit of Jobs to Be Done is to intentionally create what I call an out-of-body experience for yourself, right? Because you're so wrapped up in yourself as an organization. Like I said, organizations are really good about talking about their own brand and their own solutions and their own customer base, that we forget about other perspectives. And the other perspective is, there's a human being over there just trying to get something done in their daily lives, and they may not care about your brand or your price point or your conversion rates. What would happen if just momentarily — and it's only momentary suspense of belief — that we flip perspectives and we see things from their perspective, and look back at ourselves. And the answer is… or the benefit is, you can find opportunities that you don't see because you're your own blinders. So. It is a perspective shift and that's why I also describe Jobs to Be Done as a way of seeing. It's an alternative way of seeing because we see our organizations from a business standpoint, like I was saying. It's like, well, what would happen if we just shifted over and saw it from 180 degrees and looked back then pick out those opportunities, and — no question about it, Jorge — you always come back to those conversations about your own organization and your own product. Have no fear that you're not going to talk about your own brand. So, it's just a temporary shift outside, and then you come back in. And the idea is you can find opportunities that you wouldn't see from your own perspective. JTBD and design Jorge: And in that it shares a lot with the design process, right? Like you… Jim: Absolutely! Jorge: You mentioned Design Thinking here. In fact, when I read your book in preparation for reading that I read, Clay Christensen, et al's Competing Against Luck. And I revisited the notes that I took on that book before our interview this morning, and I wrote down that at the time, it struck me as user-centered design made palatable to stakeholders because it's being taught by Harvard Business professors, which is kind of what you're talking about here, about the language. Jim: I agree. And you know, I don't think that's unimportant though, Jorge. Like I said, I've been looking at ethnography and Design Thinking and UX and all of these other disciplines and human-centered design, and I've been steeped in those things, right? And as you know, the design community pounds its fist on the table and says, " we want a seat at the table!" Right? And rightfully so, as well too. And I think Jobs to Be Done helps that because it comes from the business community. There's no territory or ownership there that anybody can own… there's no one discipline that runs or owns Jobs to Be Done. It's really a language across your organization. And I'll tell you, since I wrote the book, I'm being contacted by marketing teams, by customer success people, obviously by people in product. Entrepreneurs are looking at Jobs to Be Done as well, too. So, I think there's a chance to have that same kind of human centeredness, whatever you want to call the center of gravity there, and to actually get further in our organizations because of its origins and because of how it's positioned as not any one discipline owning it. That said, I do think there are some important differences though. There are some really important differences between existing methods that are human centered design and Jobs to Be Done. Jorge: I would love to hear what those are. Jim: Well, the first one we kind of touched on already too, and that's the hyper, almost fanatical expunging of any reference to technology, solutions or products, right? I get a lot of people say, "tell me task analysis. This is just task analysis, right?" Jorge, I cannot find one example of task analysis that doesn't include a reference to the solution that the person who does task analysis has in front of them. In fact, some examples of task analysis are literally saying, "click the button on the second screen, then click the next button on the next screen. " That's product design. That's not how humans think about their own needs, right? I think that is… it's huge and it's important and it's not that easy, to be honest with you, Jorge. I teach a lot of classes now on Jobs to Be Done. And I get a lot of designers because a lot of people that follow me are in the design field. And then, and I'll say, "you can't use any technology. " And then I do a little exercise with them, and they use technology! In the sense, I say, "no, you can't say Design Thinking, you can't say screen. You can't say document. You can't say all these things. " So, to actually do it… and once you actually do it, you're like, "oh, I can't use any of these terms. And if I don't… " Here's the thing, if I do that, step-by-step through Jobs to Be Done, I don't use any technology, solutions, brand, any reference to any of those things, and then you look back at what you just built up, you get that freedom, you get that out of body experience that you often don't in those other fields, to be honest with you. Jorge: Circling back to the effectiveness of this language versus the language of design, in hearing you describe that, I was thinking that as information architects, our own job-to-be-done is to create effectual language structures, right? And we iterate on labels to find the ones that resonate the most with folks. So, if we are doing the work and we find language that makes it more understandable, more engaging to stakeholders, let's use that language, right? Jim: I agree. Yeah. And it's interesting, you mentioned that because… well, first of all, I said, "you have a landscape of jobs that's your first thing to do?" Guess what? That's a little mini information architecture right there. What's my innovation target is, there's a little architecture in there. But then when you're working with Jobs to Be Done, it is very, very much about language. And one of the first things that I try to show people and demonstrate is that you need at thesaurus. So, it starts with qualitative research, and people don't speak in regular normal terms. Jobs to Be Done is essentially a big categorization mechanism, that when you're listening to people talk, you say, "oh, that's a job performer. That's a job step. That's a job step. That's a job step. That's an outcome. That's an outcome. " And then you end up with piles of regular information that you gather from your qualitative research, which, you know, is very messy. And that normalization that you do to categorize things, often requires a thesaurus because you're saying like, " what's the best word to express that? What's the simplest, most compact word that I can use to express this?" You know, somebody just talked in two paragraphs, and I want to rewrite that in one phrase in one, three-word phrase, right? What's the best word in there? And some things are obvious. Some things are super obvious. But sometimes you get on these cases where you're like, "what's the best word for that?" And it really is about language. It's really about how you're expressing that. And the models that come out of Jobs to Be Done research… it's really a model of, language. Of rewriting qualitative input that you get using the Jobs to Be Done rules. And it's really about modeling that. And there is a lot of architecture involved. Making "jobs" more actionable Jorge: I'm thinking about what I think is a job-to-be-done and it's one of my favorite ones because it's actually, stated up front when you visit this place. And it's the bronze plaques at the entrance of Disneyland. There's two tunnels under a train track when you enter Disneyland. And there's these plaques that say, "here you leave today and enter the world of yesterday, tomorrow and fantasy. " And it's almost like they're telling you what the intent is for that environment, right? Like they designed this thing that aims to accomplish that. And there's this story that Walt Disney used to give his designers, the people were designing the parks, one overarching direction: whoever comes in contact with this thing that you're making should leave the experience with a smile on their face. And those to me are descriptions of jobs, right? Of what the thing is supposed to do. But there's a very wide gap between, "here you leave today and enter the world of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy," and what it takes to actually design a theme park ride there's a lot of decisions in between. And I'm wondering about how you bridge that gap. There's this language, this three-word pithy phrase that you have defined that sets the vision. How do you make it actionable? Jim: Yeah. Well, I think, there are two things at play there from the example that you mentioned. One is a hierarchy, and a hierarchy of needs or intents. You used the word intent, so we can talk about that. And I would actually… the examples that you gave, I would actually categorize those as… the first one as aspirations, right? And then you said, "leave with a smile on your face. " I would call that an outcome as well, too. This is all detailed in my book. But to actually put it into practice, maybe this is a good example to help folks think about that. So, actually break things up into… well, there's multiple categories. But for this conversation right here with you, Jorge, I think there are three things going on. One is the aspiration. What's the ultimate aspiration? And Clayton Christensen, who you mentioned, and others, they tend to work at that level, which is fine. And I think that's super important. But I think if you come down a level, you can also say, "yeah, but what's the functional job that people are trying to get done?" I call that the objective. And in your example, it might just be visiting a theme park. So I think you can anchor that aspiration at a high level, but then come down and say, "you know what? We got to build solutions that get people from point A to point B. " Visiting a theme park, right? There's a beginning, middle, and end to that, and we better fulfill that functional job or that objective they have. And then on the other side is what are the outcomes that we want people to have? And that would be, leave with a smile on your face. So, the thing that you said on the plaque, I forget exactly what that was. I would categorize that as an aspiration, and then "leave with a smile" as an outcome. The thing that's missing though is what's the functional job? What's the getting from point A to point B, the plain vanilla… I just have an objective to get done because your solution better get that done, right? Independent of emotions and aspirations and all that kind of stuff. So, Jobs to Be Done is really no nonsense and very structured around taking that example that you just gave and puts things into different categories. Let's think about the aspirations. Fine! Let's think about the outcomes. I can do analysis on that. But what's the functional job that people are trying to get done? That's another piece that you also have to work with. I've done a lot of, let's say Design Thinking workshops where you walk into the room and you say, "we're going to solve world peace today," and that's your target for the group, right? And then you brainstorm on world peace, and you ended up in a room full of sticky notes. And you're like, this is a group of mid-level UX designers. What are they going to? There's too much distance between what we do as a business and what we just came up with. You're trying to innovate at too high of a level. And I've been guilty of doing that, in blue skying everything. "Let's blue sky! No constraints, blue sky!" It's like, no. Why can't we say, "we want to figure out a better way to drill a hole in the wall. " Why can't we innovate at that level? I think actually innovation has a better success when you don't just go in and write down pie in the sky. Let's brainstorm, but say, " how can we make a better hole in the wall? Let's innovate that, guys. " Because that's the level of our focus. And you can absolutely do that. In fact, I was drilling a hole in my wall a couple of weeks ago and I was like, "wow, there's a lot of problems here. There's dust all over the place. I got to set up my drill… " Like this, "oh, this is ripe for innovation, actually. Drilling a hole in a wall is absolutely a place where you can innovate!" But we overshoot. We tend to overshoot, I believe, a lot. Jorge: Definitely. And it's part of why I find the concept of Jobs to Be Done so attractive. And especially as you express it in your book — it's very pragmatic. It's not academic in the way that so many of these ideas tend to be. So, I heartily endorse the book and your work, and I am very grateful that you've made the time to share shared with us here today. Jim: Well, thanks for having me on and for your writeup as well, too. And again, I think I said it before too, but I think that's not unimportant: the pragmatism of Jobs to Be Done. And a lot of people criticize it. "But you're leaving out this," and "you're leaving out that!" Then it's like, yeah, you're leaving all that stuff out because sometimes that confuses those people or puts off those people who are reluctant to change. And you can just go in and say, "we're just going to do these three things. " There's a lot that gets left on the editing floor in Jobs to Be Done. And I like to scoop those up and put them into a separate pile, but you can just go in and just do this really focused thing, with Jobs to Be Done. And I think, again, you mentioned it at the beginning. It's the focus that Jobs to Be Done and the no nonsense focus and the practicality and the pragmatism of Jobs to Be Done that I find really attractive, but it doesn't exclude those other things. It doesn't exclude Design Thinking or ethnography or UX design as well too. And I think you can actually add those things together. So, one of the things that I'm working on, Jorge, is how does Jobs to Be Done fit in with those other pieces of the puzzle and even things like Agile and Lean. Closing Jorge: I think that a lot of folks listening in and I myself would be very interested in hearing what you have to say about this when you publish it. Where can folks follow up with you to keep up with what you're thinking about? Jim: Sure. On LinkedIn. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I make announcements and post some information there also. Also, Twitter. It's @jimkalbach at Twitter. But I think also at the Jobs to Be Done toolkit, the website, it's an online resource. There's some free downloads there jtbdtoolkit.com - some free downloads. We also have an online course. It's a self-paced video course there. So, you can just sign up for that any time, but we also regularly… pretty much every other month. It's not a hundred percent regular yet, but we've been at a pace of about every other month we run a live course. And you can find out information about the next live course on Jobs to Be Done toolkit. Jorge: Well, fantastic. Thank you for being on the show. Jim: Thanks for having me, Jorge.

Podcast: Increase Storage Terminal Capacity through Loading and Unloading Optimization

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 30, 2021 13:39

Your Terminal Management System (TMS) handles all the data and business logic required to secure site access to load (or unload) vehicles. The TMS communicates directly with a wide array of physical devices from gate controls to preset batch controllers, with the latter automating and controlling product flow. It plays a large part in your midstream process management and business strategy, as well as how efficiently your operation functions. Effective TMS is measured by how quickly vehicles and vessels move in and out of the storage terminal facility. Also, how it's tracking both current inventory and the commercial transactions. Additional truck leads to increased revenue. Optimizing this process is one of the first steps when looking to reducing costs and improving profitability In this Optimizing Storage Terminal Capacity podcast series podcast, we are joined by Emerson midstream oil & gas expert, Ryan Thompson. Ryan highlights common challenges that terminal operators face, and how Emerson's TerminalManager is designed to address these challenges. Emerson's TerminalManager can help: Reduce truck turnaround times Implement faster queuing and truck tracking Track accurate delivery inventory and report distributions Ensure quality control impacted by blending ratios Support device compatibility Reduce human-error that comes with manual processes Visit the Optimize Terminal Capacity section on Emerson.com for on ways to maximize capacity yield and meet Top Quartile benchmarks through greater volume deployment, inventory turnover and revenue capture. It's time to put your TMS to work. We invite you to learn directly from our experts by tuning into other episodes in our Storage Terminal Capacity podcast series. Transcript Jim: Hi, everybody. I'm Jim Cahill. And welcome to another edition of our "Enabling Storage Terminal Capacity" podcast series. Today I'm joined by Ryan Thompson to discuss ways to achieve optimal truck and rail unloading rates to help improve operational capacity. Welcome, Ryan. Ryan: Thanks, Jim. Great to be here. Jim: Well, it's great having you here. Can you share with our listeners your educational background and path to where you are today as a senior manager in Emerson's Midstream Oil & Energy industry group? Ryan: Sure. I started out with a degree in petroleum engineering from Texas A&M University and took a bit of turn by getting into the IT consulting industry first with Accenture, and then later joined Deloitte Consulting. I made my way back into the oil and gas field in 2008, more specifically into Midstream, and I've been there ever since. I originally focused on pipelines and commercial applications, but now I put all of my energy into terminals and operations management. Jim: Well, that's great and that's a really interesting background with the IT consulting part in that, so that probably really helps as you work with terminal operators. So, can you tell us about a common challenge in the storage tanks and terminals industry today? Ryan: Yeah. A common challenge that I see is a constant push to do more with less. And what that translates to is improving profitability while at the same time reducing manpower, and this inherently leads us to process automation. And with a terminal management system, often called TMS for short, there are opportunities to impact both sides of that P&L equation. The very nature of a TMS system makes it both an interesting and critical piece of the solution. It's really where the rubber meets the road so to speak. The Emerson TMS called TerminalManager handles all of the data and business logic required to secure site access and handle loading and unloading activities. TerminalManager communicates directly with a wide array of physical devices, and that is from gate control to weigh scales, to preset batch controllers, with the ladder automating and controlling the product flow,

energy track reduce capacity optimizing ensure implement storage accenture terminal optimization m university tms deloitte consulting unloading ryan thompson midstream ryan yeah jim well jim cahill ryan thanks

Safer Terminal Operations with Continuous Corrosion Monitoring Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 10, 2020 32:02

Many refineries and oil terminals are located beside major stretches of water, either sea or river, to provide a cost-effective transportation route for incoming crude oil and feedstock, and for outing finished products. If left undetected, a hydrocarbon leak resulting from corrosion in a jetty line will go straight into the local water sources causing serious environmental damage to the local ecosystem and to company reputation. Using continuous corrosion monitoring to proactively collect data on pipe integrity over time, operators can avoid environmental incidents, as well as increase operational performance, reduce unplanned outages, limit personnel in hazardous locations, and reduce the need for reactive maintenance. In this storage terminal safety podcast, we are joined by Emerson's Jake Davies to talk ways we're helping industry leaders keep an eye on corrosion and erosion with innovative continuous and remote corrosion monitoring technologies Visit the Storage Terminal Safety and the Corrosion & Erosion Monitoring sections on Emerson.com for more on the technologies and solutions to help you drive safer, more reliable, and more efficient terminal operations. Transcript Jim: Hello, everybody. I'm Jim Cahill with the Emerson Automation Experts blog. And as part of our continuing podcast series on enabling storage terminals safety, I'm joined today by Jake Davies. And Jake is a director of Global Product Marketing for Emerson's Corrosion and Erosion Solutions business. We'll be discussing ways to monitor for corrosion in storage, terminal, jetty pipelines, and other spots. Welcome, Jake. Jake: Thanks for having me, Jim. Great to be here. Jim: Well, it's great to be doing this. Let's begin by having you share with our listeners your educational background and path to your current role. Jake: Sure. Okay. It's a long path, but it started with, I guess, a formal university education in engineering. I had a little time in industry, not the process industry, but more electronics. And then I went back to university and did a Ph.D. in ultrasonic engineering. And then after that, and in fact, while I was doing my Ph.D., a Ph.D. colleague of mine was researching some corrosion monitoring opportunities. And that actually led, just as I finished my Ph.D., to the formation of a startup company which was called Permasense. So, I joined that after my Ph.D. And really, at that time, we were two people. So, I did a lot of different roles ranging from customer support, design, engineering, supply chain management, production. I used to make some of the equipment myself. So, I really did a lot of roles in that startup as you can imagine. And that startup became very successful. The technology was well adopted by the oil and gas industry. And in fact, that company was acquired by Emerson in 2016. So, that's when I came into Emerson. And since then, we have joined that acquisition with Emerson's wider Corrosion and Erosion monitoring portfolio. And effectively, I look after that portfolio in Emerson and now. Oh, and on the way, I did an MBA as well. I forgot to mention that in terms of educational background. So, yeah. I guess quite well-educated, but a lot more experience in, I would say, hands-on getting the job done. I learn more that way I think. Jim: Yeah, it sounds like you're a full-fledged entrepreneur to, you know, a startup company with two. I can imagine everything from helping drive some sales and supporting the customers and everything probably to pushing a broom at the end of the day to clean the dust down around there. Jake: Yeah. Yeah. I think that sums up the range pretty well, yeah. Jim: Yeah. That's a tremendous background. So, let's get into it a little bit. I know one of the things that terminals would be concerned about are hydrocarbon leaks caused by equipment failure and some other things. So, what are some of these types of issues, and what can be done to help mitigate some of ...

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Garlow, Jim - Well Versed/The Garlow Perspective (Election results)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 4, 2020 17:54

election results versed garlow jim well

E27.1: AUTHOR JEFFREY H. RYAN HITS THE LOUNGE! HERMIT DRUG-RUNNER IN THE 1920s, JIM WHYTE CAME UP! WE TALK ABOUT WHAT GOT JEFF'S ATTENTION, APPALACHIAN TRAIL, LIVING IN A VAN MATT FOLEY STYLE, & BOB!

500 Section Lounge

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 6, 2020 76:04

The hits just keep on comin! Author, adventurer, historian, and photographer, Jeffrey (Jeff) H. Ryan hangs out in the Lounge and is quite possibly LEGEN....wait for it... DARY! He blew the guys away with his story about Jim Whyte, a hermit in the 1920's, who lived in northern Maine! Jim had a very "unusual" childhood and sailed the seas for many years! THAT IS ALL BEFORE HE STARTED RUNNING DRUGS FROM CANADA, TO CHINATOWN IN NEW YORK CITY! How in the world did Jeff run across the tail of Jim? Well, the answer might interest you! Jeff talks about Whyte's story (at least that of which we know) and tells about Jim's falling out with his father, and Freemasons(?) come up?! Jeff also lived in a van, and the guys ask him about whether he did it Matt Foley-style! Jeff tells about meeting his friend Bob, and Little Matt and Sam tell the story about their run-in with their own "Bob!" Amazing show... while you're keeping your social distancing, sit back, relax, and #grabablisten! All of Jeffrey H. Ryan books are available at Amazon, and you can find out more about where Jeff might be, ONCE HE'S ALLOWED TO GO PLACES, at his website, www.JeffRyanAuthor.com! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/500section/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/500section/support

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Garlow, Jim - Well Versed NRB 2020

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 27, 2020 26:58

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AS HEARD ON - The Jim Polito Show - WTAG 580 AM: Passwords, Data Collection, Big Tech and more

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 25, 2020 13:13

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and we discussed Passwords, huge databases, data collection by Big Tech and our schools, COPPA and Google. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Now we've got the New Mexico Attorney General, who I'm sure will be joined by other attorneys general to file suit on this. We've got this children's online Privacy Protection Act, which has been around for quite a while that says any personal data for a child under the age of 13. If you collect that data on a child, you have to have explicit permission from the parents. Craig Good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. And that was me chatting with Mr. Jim Polito over in Worcester and Springfield, Mass, two biggest that's the second and third-biggest cities in Mass and we got talking about the new FBI recommendations. Also, a new lawsuit filed against Google. It is going to be the next big thing for governments going after companies like Google and other data aggregators who are collecting data on our kids through programs they sponsor in our schools. I can't believe what the schools are doing to the kids right now when it comes to their privacy. By the way, a bit of a warning. It was kind of scratchy this morning. I'm not sure what was going on. But anyhow, here we go. Jim Popular segment here on the show. It happens every Tuesday. At this time. I'm talking about our good friend and Tech Talk guru, who just happens to be from Canada, originally. Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Good morning, Jim. Jim All right, Craig, I want to start with this. You know, we're in the political season now. You know, campaign slogans and phrases and all that but, so maybe that's this is an excellent time to change your password because the FBI is saying, Hey, get rid of that password, and come up with a pass. phrase, you know, like, make America great again, maybe not that one. It might be a little too obvious for some people, but they're saying phrases tell us about this. Craig It goes way back to the password came out oh my gosh, Dec, many, many, many decades ago. And it was a way to restrict access to a computer, and very few people were trying to break into them. Most of them didn't have a, you know, external wire. And what's an easy way to do this? Well, let's just have a password, and it was just simple, and it was enough to keep people out. And then we moved to the point where what happened is people had guys who got onto computers can steal the password files, and they had programs that would run through those password files and try and crack the passwords. You know, and that's when they came up with the idea, hey, listen, you got to have uppercase, lowercase digits, special characters, all of this other stuff. And today, it has changed the game. Today, as a result of all of these breaches is we have these large password data files. I have a copy of one of them, as well. I've been using to research these vast troves of data containing billions of actual people's passwords that they have used on a website, anything from their bank through Facebook or Google. It brings up the big problem, Jim, of using the same password on multiple sites, because what the bad guys are doing is they use that password file, passwords, billions of them, and they basically against you, or a cat online to try to break-in. So instead of trying to do something, that's computation, Generally intensive, they just say, Hey, listen, there really, there's about 10% of the people that use somewhere around the top 5% of all the passwords out there. So let's just go ahead, and we'll try those what the FBI is saying. If you use a string of words, as you had mentioned, you know, those bag of things, which by the way, as you pointed out, is a bad word because all people can use it. But if you use a string of words that are at least 15 characters long, it can take a hacker who's trying to make a brute force attack, and it can take that hacker good 100 years to break into your account. So it's simple advice. Most businesses are still aren't following it. It is something that I've been talking about for a few years now since I read some outstanding studies, not passports, I'm looking at how the hackers are working out there, and it goes back to 2015. So it's been about five years since I read some of those first ones. But the FBI his advice now, is it a longer password? Relying on simple words even and no special characters will take a crack and require more computational resources and, and therefore is much safer? Jim Wow. We're talking with Craig Peterson, our checkout guru, FBI recommending come up with a phrase. Don't use a password. A at the end of this segment will give you a little word that you can use. That word is going to be Jim, and you're going to get more information from Craig Peterson, but we'll tell you about that at the end of the segment. Okay, so I'm feeling safer. There. All right, now, here's where I'm not feeling safe. And it's for the kiddies. Okay, so Google is being sued. For misusing school kids, private data is this again, one of those cases where Google says I use this product, we have our this software for free. For free. Yeah. And then whenever it's free, you're the product, right? Craig Absolutely. It's like the free VPNs out there. You know, they're worse than not using a VPN. In this case, what we're talking about, is Google suite right here in Brockton, Mass. We've got a school tool that's using it. But Google has something called a Chromebook. We've talked about this before on the show. It is a Google Chromebook for the average user is the safest device to use out there. Okay, it is not more reliable than a MacBook but is much safer than a Windows laptop. There's a Chromebook, and the real, real exciting thing for schools is Yeah, they can be very cheap. Yeah. Right. Jim Like instead of buying an iPad for every kid in the school, which is expensive by the Chromebook, Craig 450 bucks, yeah. Cheap. They go only up to 1000 depending on what you want. But it's Google we're talking about here. So even though they are secure from a hacker getting into them standpoint, that doesn't mean that Google isn't tracking what you're doing. Enter the problem here. The cost for access to free tools, as we know, is paid for by Google having our data, right. Google's providing low and no-cost hardware and software tools to students and schools. In addition to just statistics nationwide, and now we've got the New Mexico attorney general who I'm sure will be joined by other attorneys general to file suit on this. We've got this children's online Privacy Protection Act, which has been around for quite a while that says any personal data for a child under the age of 13. If you collect that data on a child, you have to have explicit permission from the parents. It applies to websites, apps, any sort of digital platform, and they collected data from the kids. And the New Mexico Attorney General is saying, Wait a minute. Well, you are collecting the data, and it resides in your cloud. So what are you doing with this? You're violating federal law, in this case, also New Mexico law? Yep. And Sue is alleging that Google deliberately is just stealing school districts and Parents about data collection, and how much better Could it be for Google? Right? They want to ask consumers for life, and then they start with you. Jim Well, how about that commercial that was so popular and useful that aired during the Super Bowl. It was a gentleman who was a widower. He was talking to Google. He was talking about his wife, who passed away, and it showed how it would remember all these things about her and bring up memories and thoughts. And okay, yeah, what better way to start that is when you're a kid. Google knows your whole life so that when you're dying, and your life is flashing before your eyes, Google will do it for you. They'll insert a couple of advertisements probably. For Funeral Directors, they'll put in you know, an ad in for a funeral during Hey, and you're dying now. Why don't you tell you folks about our services Craig Do you want to go to such a funeral home? Google and Apple and Microsoft, etc., all want our private data. They all want to be the repository of all of this information about us over the years. You know you can pick who doesn't go to Dr. Google when they when something goes wrong, right? Or you're trying to figure out what the symptoms mean, what's going on Google does track that, by the way, Google has a flow tracker, on the number of people who are searching for symptoms. Remember now to the federal government is restricted and cannot obtain or gather specific information on illegal under federal law, right? So what is the what are they started to do? Go into these third party companies like the Googles that have the data on us, and the federal government even though they can't track it, also though they can collect it. Our private industry has no restrictions on doing that. And so the federal and state governments they're just bypassing the law and go into these data aggregators to get whatever data they want about it. Jim All right. So look, here's what you need to do you need to arm yourself and know all of these things. And the way that you do it is you get on board with Craig Peterson. Craig Peterson will provide you with this information for free, and you are not the product. He does it as a service to members and listeners of the show. So all you do is Text my name, Jim, to this number 855-385-5553 Texting Jim to 855-385-5553 standard data and text rates apply. Craig Peterson will not rip you off. And Craig, thanks so much. We'll talk to you next week. Craig All right, Jim. Bye-bye. All right. Craig 12:17 I'm sorry, that was terrible audio. I don't know I am debating whether or not I should even share that with you. I'm not sure what happened there. But, you know, say lovey like air. Anyhow, have a great day. And we'll be back tomorrow, hopefully with better audio. And then, of course, we got the show this weekend. And we're still working on our man. These tutorials are going to be amazing. By the time you finish these tutorials, you're going to be able to lock down any Windows or Mac computer yourself, and you're going to be able to lock down your small business network so that you're not going to be a victim of the bad guys. Best of all this is free. And if it was wasn't enough. You're going to know how to test everything yourself to make sure they can't get in. How was that for amazing, you guys, man. We're putting a lot of work into this, but you are going to love it. I think this is going to be the turning point in your security. Anyhow, have a great day. We'll be back tomorrow. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

AS HEARD ON - The Jim Polito Show - WTAG 580 AM: First in the Nation New Hampshire Primary Day and Election Hacking

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 11, 2020 14:31

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and as you know today is Primary Day in New Hampshire it is the Big Day for our State Sport - Politics. That means it is the day to address voter manipulation, voter fraud, low tech solutions and why apps are not the answer. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You know, they don't release their source code, they hold everything close to the chest. They say, Well, you know, it's obscure people don't know what we're doing or how we're doing it; therefore, it's safe. That is never the case, and things are starting to turn around. So there are so many mistakes we could put a whole quarter together and how that poor people about it. Here's how not to do a deployment of software. Craig Hey, good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here, of course, on with Mr. Jim Polito. How could we be here on New Hampshire voting day without talking about politics and whether or not voting machines are hackable? So let's get into it. Jim Polito There are multiple levels to this one in New Hampshire. But this is important because We're going to Iowa. And we're going to the polls, the technical and have an election joining us now, our tech talk guru and good friend, Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Good morning. It sounds like you're going to hit for that Bernie screen there. Yeah. Jim Yeah, yeah. You were not going to do one of those. Hey, can we talk about election technology? I mean, what the heck happened in Iowa? I mean, really? Yeah, I know. We talked about it before, but what the heck happened? Craig Yeah, this is an excellent example of everything you should not do when it comes to launching an app when it comes to rolling out new software, whatever it is. The Iowa Democratic Party man, everybody in there. Should be Jeff can there's no question about it. You know, I work with the FBI, and I'm part of the FBI infragard program. And the FBI is excellent about trying to make sure that everybody's safe. Did you know that Homeland Security, the FBI reached out to the Iowa Democratic Party saying, "Hey, guys, we know you have an app, we know that you're looking to use this for all of the results and we are here to help." What you had in Iowa was a bunch of people that have never rolled out an app before. They built it quickly. Jim, I am talking about hastily built, it wasn't load tested. We already talked about the fact that it was made entirely by insiders of Democratic Party higher-ups inside. It's everything you wouldn't want. You know, if I were them, I would have had a completely dry run on this thing, which they kind of did. They had little test logins for people. And the way they did their dry run was minimal. And this is a dry run, use different account different ways of logging in a different place to log in than the real one. It was just a total disaster. Jim I'll tell you, you know, this is the second time that the Democrats have had a problem with something it refused the help of the FBI. Remember, you know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the hacking of the DNC and John Podesta's emails being leaked, okay. They didn't want any help with that, either. Then we have this happening. Now the first one, I think, might have been Russian hackers (phishers). This one, they hacked it up all by themselves and still didn't ask for help from the FBI. And here's the question, Could someone, a bad player from another country, have hacked into that app screwed the whole thing up? I mean, we don't have any evidence yet that it did happen. But the question is, could it have happened? Craig Well, and the answer to that is obviously, yes. One of the big things that we've been doing for years here in the application development business remember, I built some of the most prominent internet properties that ever existed. Jim You helped to invent the internet. That's not a joke, people. He wrote code that is still in use. Craig Yeah, exactly. And some of the big ones like the Big Yellow Super Pages, you've probably heard about that. Yeah. You know that these important things and one of the things that we do to help make sure The safe software systems are secure are we use something called open-source software. And open-source software is software where everyone can look at the code. So, for instance, the best application out there, if you want an end to end security is called signal app. It's free. The source code for this thing is available freely on the internet for anyone to inspect. And that's the opposite of what again, the Democratic Party did in Iowa, which is the used what would be called closed source, something in the industry we call security through obscurity. Jim And look at how well that's worked for Microsoft. Right. Craig You know, they, they don't release their source code but hold everything close. They say, Well, you know, it's obscure. People don't know what we're doing or how we're doing it. Therefore it says that is Never the case, and things are starting to turn around. So there are so many mistakes that we could put a whole course together at Harvard, for people about here's how not to do deploy software. Jim We're talking with our good friend Tech Talk Guru Craig Peterson. At the end of the segment, we're going to tell you how you can get your hands on some of his stuff. Craig will not bother you, so don't worry. So, Craig, that could have happened. They didn't use open source stuff. What about the rest of our election? I mean, they're, they're going to the polls in New Hampshire right now. I mean, can our election be hacked? Craig Yeah, that's a great question. And I think everybody's minds right now. I'm going to be on a TV station up in Burlington, Vermont. Speaking of obscure Jim Very good. Very good. Craig I wonder if the Soviet flag is still on the wall? I doubt it. Jim I wouldn't doubt it. Oh. Craig That's what we're going delve into because I think it's a question everybody's mind. There are multiple levels of hacks or numerous targets for hacks when it comes to our systems in the election. Now, I have to say, New Hampshire is what many people would call a Luddite. New Hampshire says, Hey, listen, we're going to go low tech. And you know what, that's my answer. They have resisted all these fancy computer systems, all of these new-fangled machines. In New Hampshire, when you vote, you use a pencil or a felt tip pen on a piece of paper. Yeah. And that's the only thing that they could hack. Then those ballots are kept so they a manual count can be done if needed. Back in 2000, New Hampshire had the option of using the the the hanging chads technique that used in Florida and New Hampshire avoided that. And now so here are the different levels you could hack the voting machines themselves and New Hampshire, again, is doing a great job. The not connected networked, let alone the internet. So that's step one. The FBI has been warning about is how Secretary of State's offices, websites, because what's been happening is a that is just crazy here. But those websites are being compromised by places like Ukraine, Russia. And others over the years and obviously, China. How are those used? For the ultimate reporting in some states, the local county chairs performing the counts, upload them directly to the website. The data goes on there. That is another place for hacks to occur. And then here's yet another opportunity for hacking, and that is those websites show faults resolved because nationally, their parties are going to the website to the sector state offices and pulling the final results. Then they can also be hacked up on the federal level because, again, they're also using computers. There are so many ways for hacking to happen, but I can feel comfortable in saying that the FBI is keeping a very close eye on this, Homeland Security is keeping a very close eye on this. And, you know, I think we can be moderately comfortable. Those types of hacks aren't happening. But then there's the non-hack hack, which is they buy advertising and try and get people to change their minds. Now, that happened last time around, but the Russians managed to buy ads to try and get your change your vote after the election occurred. Right. So it's right left and center in this day and age, Jim. Jim It is just crazy that the people, the democrats, in this case, won't take the help of the FBI. In protecting these things. I agree with you low tech is the best. Low tech is the best. Sure. You could have some person working in a clerk's office stuff the ballot box, okay, but you couldn't have a political hack that would overturn a question. The Presidential election it would be more difficult to coordinate that many people to do it. Craig Yes. And it's way more difficult today than it was just two years ago or four years ago because they're starting to figure it out. And many states are ditching those completely electronic voting machines. By the way, here, here's something we got to get changed. We have a federal law that requires every state to have electronic voting machines that can be used by the, you know, hearing impaired, sight impaired, etc. I agree we have to provide something that allows these people to vote, but again why not a low tech solution. We should assign a poll worker to help them fill out the ballot, as opposed to having a machine that essentially has a touchpad, which is hackable. Just last year, we had our black hat conference in Vegas. There they had a bunch of voting machines sitting there for hackers to try their skills. Within minutes, they were able to hack into every one of them, and even a high schooler was able to hack them. Jim Well, that's what you get, you know? I mean, there's, there are people like you who get it, you know, when they're very talented, but then we've got these kids who are growing up in a world where they can figure this out. Craig Yes, yeah. And, and it's a feather in their cap to their career. You know, we just had a bill passed in the Senate. That was, I think it's started in the Senate and then sent to the house. It called for white hat hackers. Good guys to try and hack federal government systems. Well, where do you get your chomps to be a white hat hacker? A lot of these kids will look at it and say all I was just a kid. Yeah, I was hacking businesses and government websites and, and I was able to do all of this. Now all of a sudden they get a job in the federal government that's well paid because they were bad guys when they were, you know, young. I get it. Jim All right. So, where can folks get more information from you? I take it that they text my name, Jim, to this number. Craig Absolutely. Couple of ways to do it. You can just go to Craig Peterson calm, or you can text Jim to 855-385-5553. That's just text, Jim to 855-385-5553, standard data and text rates apply. Jim Craig will not try to hack you. And Craig, we love having you every Tuesday at this time. Craig Hey, thanks, Jim. Jim All right. Have a good one, buddy. When we return a fight Word. You're listening, Craig Thanks for being with us. I have been so busy along with my team. You know, I've been saying this for about a month and, and it's right. We have some fantastic free training coming up. We have a course also coming up. It is going to be a killer month. Yes, indeed. That's kind of a hint, a killer month. All right, anyway, take care, everybody. We will be back. Just don't expect as much output from me this week with lives and everything else. Take care. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

AS HEARD ON - The Jim Polito Show - WTAG 580 AM: The problems with the Iowa Caucuses

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 4, 2020 9:44

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and we discussed the debacle that was the Iowa Caucuses and what it means to you as the election season moves forward. In short, test, test, test. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Tied into Hillary's campaign staffers that were paid 10s of thousands of dollars by the Iowa Democratic Party. $60,000 was paid to them by the Nevada Democratic Party, who was caucusing in a couple of weeks as well. Craig Morning everybody, Craig Peterson here on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning heard throughout New England, every state New England can listen to and does listen to his show. Amazing guy. I love this guy. We spent time discussing the Iowa caucuses and the software they were using as well as the people behind that software. I will give you some advice about what can you do? It turns out that there are some significant allegations about some Anti-Virus software that was spying on you. So here we go. Jim Well, here we have Craig Peterson on the roster. It's just incredible because we've got a complete meltdown of the Democrat Party in Iowa. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't believe it's, well, like Hillary behind the scenes trying to destroy Bernie Sander's chances again, like she did last time. I just think it's general and competence. Let's get in the most competent person when it comes to the internet. This on safer internet day in the US. It's just baffling to me. And so today, the rumors are flying. You know, they're taking pictures of the forms, and they had filled out these caucus chairs of them. They're scorers, and they're texting them, and they had phone line shut up in case there was a problem and the phone line, they had three different numbers people could call, they can't get through the phone lines aren't working, right. It's just a total disaster just like Obamacare was it would But doesn't that invite you to know, now I'm going to ask you to step out of your tech talk Guru shoes and stepping into the ones of you know, being a commentator. Doesn't that invite people saying, Is this a conspiracy? I mean, like we were joking about Hillary and there are connections to Hillary, basically anything in democratic politics is somehow connected to her. But isn't this just inviting the crazy claims of you know, Bernie's people who I've already seen on social media, you know, saying this is another attempt to get Bernie knocked out? Craig Yeah, well, I have. I've had a slogan for four decades now. And that is to "Never attribute to malice that which can easily be attributed to incompetence." So if you see incompetence, just say, okay, you know, this is incompetence. Negligent incompetence, but you know incompetence. Jim Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not saying that this point anything that says this is a Hillary thing or even that indicates it is. Craig Still, the rumors are flying because, again, we have this company tied into Hillary's campaign staffers that were paid 10s of thousands of dollars by the Iowa Democratic Party. By the way, the Nevada Democratic Party also paid $60,000 was paid to them, and they are caucusing in a couple of weeks as well. So it's just total incompetence, frankly, Jim We're talking with Tech Talk guru, Craig Peters, on gave us a great explanation. To the mess in Iowa. Now Craig, Let's move on to sup today's safer internet day in the US, and I know that's something you support because your feelings are, hey, passwords, security, things like that. You should always, always be mindful of it not just today, every day, but I want to ask you about something else. The secretive market, the little secret market that is selling my web browsing history. Somebody's making an awful lot of money off of what I searched for our day. Craig Yeah, this is I think kind of interesting because it goes back to you know, you know, I'm always talking about, you know, how to set your passwords what to do, etc. This ties into something else that I've been saying forever. And that is nothing free on the internet. Yes. Nothing right, and so what's come out right now? Is this anti-virus giant called Avast who makes anti-virus software now I'm inserting something here I am pausing discussion business second? And the virus software is zero percent effective against two days attacks on the internet. Wow, zero percent. Okay. So well, let's just say that okay, but antibonding this giant Avast has had a product. They've since canceled it since news Lee doubt was, again, one of these free anti-virus pieces of software out there. And they've got four has 435 million active users and JumpShot, which is this product she has it has data from 100 million places. Allegedly there is what's been going on, reported by motherboard and PC mag. But your Google searches, look upon locations, GPS coordinates, Google Maps, LinkedIn pages, different companies, where did you go? Which specific YouTube videos? Have you watched people visiting porn websites, all of that was tracked by them? That data was uploaded from your computer and sold to advertisers and anybody willing to pay ultimately, collectively, millions of dollars. And it was called an all click feed to track everything users were doing from this free software. Jim Wow. So they then take that information, probably explains why, you know, I get all of these ads for things I've either looked at or had somewhat of an interest in in the past week. I mean, you know, it's crazy. The kind of stuff that comes my way in terms of ads. It's like they know me ultimately. Craig Yeah, it's shocking. And I can tell you how many times I think one of the most common questions is how many times I've had people ask Craig, and he's my phone listening to me. Yeah, and believe me, Facebook, etc., etc. But we're using some computer technology. Now the Colin and artificial intelligence, that term has morphed, I would not call it that. I'd call it machine learning, but they're calling it AI. And now we know they have been harvesting all of this. Those people that have the free or even the cheap VPN services that have a free or cheap anti-virus service. All of that data is getting collected, being put together be mixed in a pot with this machine learning software that says Well, people that watch this video, go to the websites that are looking for a job, etc., etc. are likely to be looking for this pair of shoes. And now you get an act an ad for a couple of shoes, and you wonder why you got it because you weren't looking for shoes. But you know what, those are pretty cool shoes. Yeah, that is it. Jim Craig, quickly, we have just about a minute left. What can people do to protect themselves from this? Craig Man, I am worried that people have just kind of given up because we hear every day about this sort of thing happening. But the bottom line is Be very careful when you're online free is not free. You're the product. Use a web browser like Firefox that's quite well secure. Chrome and never use Chrome again, unless you are forced to -- do not use Microsoft Edge browser. Stick with Firefox and Safari. Right now. Those are the two big ones Safari is an apple Yeah, and those are the two big ones that we know are not tracking you. Jim We are talking to Craig Peterson. You hear that information, folks, what a great day to have him here. But you can have him with you all the time. If you text My name, Jim, to this number 855-385-5553. That's 855-385-5553 standard data, and text rates apply. That will get you information from Craig Peterson and Craig Peterson. Will not bother you will not hack; you will not try to sell you anything. Craig, fantastic segment. I look forward to talking with you next week. Craig Take care, Jim, Jim Take care. All right, a crucial final word. When we return. You're listening to the Jim Pulido show your safe space. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Amazon Alexa Updates and more on the Jim Polito Show on WTAG

@BEERISAC: CPS/ICS Security Podcast Playlist

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 8, 2019 11:29

Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning. And I don't know how much you know about the Amazon Alexa and the whole environment. There were some big announcements announced by Amazon in the last little while. We spent a little bit of time talking about them. And some of the things you can do with this new smart home assistant software, and some of the things you might want to do and maybe some of the things you don't want to do. So here we go with Jim. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related articles: Alexa, Now A Truly Useful Smart Assistant --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Good morning, everybody. Craig Peters on here. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning. And I don't know how much you know about the Amazon Alexa and the whole environment depending on how you want to pronounce it. But there is some big announcements coming out of Amazon just a couple of weeks ago. So we spent a little bit of time talking about them. And some of the things you can do with this new smart home assistant software, and some of the things you might want to do and maybe some of the things you don't want to do. So here we go with Jim. Jim If you have an Amazon electric you may want to just, you know, get ready for her to go crazy. Yeah, she's she's gonna go a little crazy because we're going to sing her name over and over again. But there's a lot of things she can do for you, not the bad stuff. There's a lot of things she can do for you. That a great that you don't even know about but you know who knows about it. The genius, Our Tech Talk Guru Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Hey, good morning, Jim. Jim So I've been teasing this all morning. And I know every time I say Alexa know, everybody's which isn't good, because people who are listening through a smart speaker which you can listen to this show through someone's finger, every time I say that, it stops playing and she starts listening. So maybe we should come up with a different name for her while we talk about her behind her back. Craig You could do that. Yeah, absolutely. Can I actually use my Alexa to listen to you in the morning? Yeah. Which is great. I do. I'm fascinated. Every day. I get people send me emails. They say Jim, I've got one in the bathroom. And one in the kitchen. Michael, what? Right? And you know why I don't even have one. Talk about being in the Yeah, I mean, a large portion of this audience listens to the show. Jim Through Alexa or through another smart speaker and and the guy doing the show doesn't even own one. Craig Well, first off, if you're if you have one of these Amazon echo's, these Alexa devices, the first thing to do if you're listening to Jim is change its name. So, here's the trick, Alexa will actually respond to either you can say Alexa and it will wake up, or you can go into your app that you have for your Alexa and you can change its name now it will respond to one of three names. You can either call it Alexa, you can call it Echo, or you can be like john Luc Picard and call it computer and it will respond. Jim Yeah, that was the Star Star Trek. Little reference there. For those of us who are geeks Craig Yeah, exactly. It's although there's a couple of things that I have it do, by the way, it has these, these little apps, if you will, that you can run on the echo devices on these Amazon devices. And you can actually program them quite simply my wife who is anything but a programmer has done this as well. And one of them is red alert. So if I, if I tell it that there's a red alert, I'm not going to say the name in front of it, because I don't want them all going on, right. But it can, it can learn to do things. So it starts playing the whole Red Alert thing from Star Trek and lights flashing. So that ties that ties into one of the things you had been talking about a little bit earlier. And that is that they had a big announcement, a whole set of them. Amazon has their big yearly announcements about a week or two after Apple has theirs. And so they were up on the stage one of their big announcements is that they're going to be able to allow you to have some some names, kind a ounds like, we're going to have a committee to study whether or not we are going to have a committee that's going to investigate sensuality of impeaching President Trump. Yeah. So Samuel Jackson's voice is going to be available on the Alexa. But they're going to do something interesting with this. Jim, we've talked so many times about this new deep fake stuff. They're going to deep fake Samuel Jackson's voice. Jim Oh, so that we talked about this, how dangerous this can be that they could take my image and have me saying something or doing something illegal or whatever, and that that technology is going to be available to the average person, but it's already available to the high tech people. So so they're going to take the tone of Samuel L. Jackson's voice and they're going to say things even though he's not saying it to say those things exactly. So you can boys that's gotta be I'll tell you what I'll bet that's a big payday for Samuel L Jackson. Craig It is because they brought him in studio when he recorded a bunch of stuff but historically what happened with Sherry and and many of these others over the years is a record someone singing almost everything that anyone has ever said. So they've given us a minimum of 5000 word vocabulary typically, oh Samuel L. Jackson is going to be way too expensive to have them have them say every word in the English language that is likely to want to do so Jim Yeah Craig Deep fakes to go into abound on your Alexa. So that's number two. He's number one, he's going to be the first one. Another thing that I am using that I get I just found out about myself because Amazon upgraded it is something called Alexa guard. Now we all know that the Alexa sits there listening. Okay all of the time. Jim That's why she's not in the house right now, cuz she'd be listening all the time. But go ahead. Craig Yeah. And that's a little bit unnerving, frankly. So Amazon has some technology in it to make it so that if even if it's hacked, you'll notice the light will come on if it's starting to record. So there's a difference between listening and recording. But with Alexa guard, what's going to happen or what happens right now is it listens for Windows breaking or alarms, like carbon dioxide, alarms, fire alarms, any kind of alarm that you have, and it also ties into some of the Home Alarm Systems. So if you have the ring, if you have a couple of others, it'll tie into that so here's what happened. It hears someone walking around. Yeah, that's that's fine, right? Craig Probably going to learn about footsteps is probably going to be able to learn that there's a dog barking or something else is going on. But right now it's just alarms and window breaks. And what it'll do is it will basically call you up. Jim Oh. Craig It calls you. You have the app on your smartphone, and it says, Hey, I heard something and then it'll play the recording of what it heard to you. That's pretty good. That's really cool. Jim Yeah, so broke broken glass. It hears that it records it and then it calls me up. Now that's, that's a didn't know that's without having to pay for an additional alarm system for your home. Craig It comes with it. And right now you can get some of the older models of the Alexa for as little as 20 bucks. Jim Wow. Craig So there you go. Now you've got a basic alarm system. It's also by the way, got an auto delete now. Cuz I know that you've been concerned you don't have one of a does record they do go to the cloud. Everybody does this, Microsoft does it with Cortana. And Apple does it, but it goes and then they're reviewed to see how accurate was their understanding of what you said. They now have an auto delete feature in the Amazon Echo universe. And it allows you to have your voice automatically your recordings automatically deleted every three months or every 18 months. You can also tell Alexa to delete what I just said or delete everything I've said today. So it's got a lot of nice little features in it. It also has Food Network features and if you have the echo show which is the one that has the screen on it, you probably notice this because it keeps adjusting recipes for you but this is going to tie in to book a cooking classes from Bobby Flay, which is really kind of cool, you can ask a question it'll tie into your shopping list that I Amazon will take for you that you can use in the grocery store other places, you can ask it So, okay, so let's show me that chicken recipe. And then later on you can go back to it and say how many chicken sighs or what I supposed to use or buy, right? You can tell to save the recipe. It's got new stuff for kids as well and read them stories and have some simple games and other activities. Alex her back is available on your Alexa Wow, you can have your own little game yeah, you're a little game and answer the question within question answer. I don't know how he does it. In the form of a question answer in the form of Yeah, there you go. Yeah, so you answer the question with a question. Wi Fi controller. It has hunches. And that feature is going to be a nap or not announced, but I'm going to come in very, very soon. So the can perform different actions together. So, for instance, we talked a minute ago about the Alexa guard, so you can have it so as Alexa detects something that thinks might be a smashed window and alarm going off. You can have it automatically turn on lights and under your house, you can say hey, Alexa, I'm leaving now. And with hunches, it'll mimic you the way you normally use your lights and and your radio and listening to Jim Polito in the morning. It will mimic all of that as though you are at home. So a lot of really cool features. We have three or four of them in the house these Alexa everything from the dot through the show. Yeah, the kids have them. And I've kind of fallen in love. These things are very, very handy. Jim Well, look, we can find out more. I mean, Craig just scratched the surface. Plus he's got a lot of other information. And all you have to do to get it is text my name, Jim to this number Craig 855-385-5553. So just text a Jim to 855-385-5553 Jim Standard data and tax rates apply. But you'll get all this great information and you'll get much more Craig will not bother you. He will not pester you. He will not hack you, Craig. Thanks so much, buddy. We'll talk with you next week. Craig All right. Take care, Jim. Bye-bye. Jim All right, a very important final word. When we return you're listening to the Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson

5 Questions for Cybersecurity Expert Jaime Foose

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 17, 2019 10:33

Podcast: Emerson Automation ExpertsEpisode: 5 Questions for Cybersecurity Expert Jaime FoosePub date: 2019-07-08Emerson’s Jaime Foose joins our continuing podcast series, 5 Questions for an Emerson Expert. Jaime is an ICS cyber security expert, Director of Security Solutions and Lifecycle Shared Services. She helps power producers and water & wastewater utilities with programs and processes to improve their cyber defenses and the ongoing health of their distributed control systems & operational technology (OT). https://www.emersonautomationexperts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Jaime-Foose-5-Questions.mp3 We hope you enjoy this podcast episode and will subscribe to the Emerson Automation Experts podcast series on your iOS or Android device. Transcript Jim: Hi, everyone, and welcome to another edition of “5 questions for an Emerson Expert.” Today, I’m joined by Jaime Foose. Jaime is a Director of Security Solutions and Lifecycle Shared Services in our Power and Water Solutions (PWS) business unit. Jaime received her bachelor’s degree in computer science with a minor in Mathematics, as well as also attaining an MBA and a Master of Science in IT project management. Wow. That’s an impressive academic career. Welcome, Jaime. Jaime: Thanks, Jim. It’s great to be here today. Jim: Well, it’s great having you. So I always like to start out because some of the courses, computer science, mathematics, and then some business and some IT, all in there. So what made you decide to pursue a STEM-based career? Jaime: So, Jim, I’d always had an interest in computers, but my college career didn’t start out there. I started in another science field. Actually, because when I was in eighth grade, I had a teacher that had told me he didn’t think I’d be able to pass college-level calculus. And that had always stuck with me for a really long time, so much so that I didn’t pursue computer science. In the summers, when I was going to college, I worked for Kelly Temporary Services, and I ran into a lady that worked for a gas company, and I was working as an admin that summer. And I told her about my college background in history and this teacher that had really gotten in my head. And she really encouraged me to pursue my dream and really chase doing computer science. So I went back to school that fall, changed my major to computer science, made it through all the calculus courses just fine, and ended up finishing with my computer science degree, just one semester extra to do that. And then found that it led me here to Emerson. So it was a really fantastic change that I made. Jim: Well, that’s a great story. It’s nice that there was a person along the way that spurred you on and overcame some negative about how difficult it was or whatever. I hope other people are a force of being positive with other younger people to encourage them along. So from there, I guess with that background, what led you to a career in the field of process automation, and I guess more specifically, in your area, cybersecurity for control systems? Jaime: Sure. So when I first started, I don’t think I really even realized what industry I was getting into. I used the placement services of the university I attended for job placement and actually interviewed with Westinghouse at the time. And so, this was right when PWS had just been acquired by Emerson. And in my hometown, Westinghouse had a fantastic name. And if you got offered a job from Westinghouse, you took it. So I had this great interview with a great company. I didn’t really know all that much about process automation, but I knew it was a good company. And that’s how I joined. When I first started, I worked on communication interfaces, and just did a lot of different work in a lot of different areas, but always seemed to gravitate towards new things or things that were just a little bit more challenging or tricky. So in 2008, we saw a big increase in cybersecurity concerns around power generation. And this was really in tune with when NERC CIP [North American Reliability Corporation Critical Infrastructure Protection] started making regulatory obligations, you know, requirements for power generators. And we started seeing this in the business and coming in through different requests for proposal. And so I took on that challenge to try to understand what exactly was going on in our industry. You know, for a long time, cyber had been a problem for financial industries and retail industries, but now was really hitting home in power. I felt like this was an area that I could dig into and really help, not only ease the burden for our customers, but also for our company as well. And that’s kind of how I ended up in cybersecurity realm. Jim: Well, that’s great. And we’ll have a follow-on podcast, at some point, to dig more into that specific area. But for right now, tell us about a recent challenge that you’ve been working on to solve. Jaime: Sure. So, a recent challenge that’s facing, not only our customers, but also Emerson as a whole is this idea of what’s called a Transient Cyber Asset. And so what that means, these are devices, computers, USB sticks, or other electronic equipment that come and go on the control system. So it might be like a maintenance laptop or the USB stick a field service engineer has in their pocket. In power space, our customers are now required to apply some base level security controls for those devices and implement them across their different systems to make sure that, for any devices entering into the control system network, there’s some core security controls. So, for our customers, that means they have to inventory everything, not only internally, but also systems that their vendors bring on site. And then make sure that their vendor systems are secured and able to work on the control system. This is a really big challenge for us in field service area, because up until now we’ve been very accustomed to using our own Emerson provided laptops to perform this type of work. And we’ve been able to do this for upgrades or other maintenance activities. Now we have to figure out, not only how can we continue to do our job effectively and efficiently, but do it under these new controls and restrictions of using a Transient Cyber Asset. So, not only we’re working right now to figure out how that impacts Emerson and what types of things we can put in place to help our customers, we also have several jobs with customers right now helping them inventory their Transient Cyber Assets, and apply some basic cyber controls. The standard for this goes into effect on January, so we’re starting to really see a big uptick in concern around Transient Cyber Assets. Jim: Well, yeah, that sounds like it really raises the degree of difficulty, just from, it’s one thing to secure everything that’s known and fixed and part of the control system, but when you have these electronic devices and USB sticks coming and going, that really sounds challenging and a meaty problem to be working on. So enough about all this about automation, cybersecurity, and all this. So once we get outside the world of process automation, what do you enjoy doing in your spare time? Jaime: I have two little girls. They’re 9 and 10, so they really keep me busy. They love to swim, actually, we all love to swim, so we spend a lot of time at the pool, especially, it’s been pretty hot here in Pittsburgh lately, so we’ve been doing that. Also, spend a lot of time at the movies. We’re big Marvel movie fans. And so we’ve been busy this spring and summer catching up on all of that. And when we’re not doing that, we participate in Community 5K races as a family and with friends, now, whether we’re walking or running, just some community engagement, and trying to stay healthy. We do some volunteering as well with the Light of Life Rescue Mission for the women and children’s program. So I spend one Tuesday a month down there. And then we’ve also been working as volunteers with the Agapao Ministries, they are serving the refugees that have been placed here in Pittsburgh. So, some fun and volunteering and exercise all rolled into one, is what keeps us busy in the off time. Jim: Wow. That sounds like busy. So staying healthy and fit, and volunteering your time, and all of that, that’s really great. And I guess the final of the 5 questions, we have a lot of newcomers joining our ranks both in our world of process automation and power producers, and other manufacturing industries, and everything else. So what advice would you have for someone new coming into the field, I guess, especially around the area that you see in cybersecurity? Jaime: Advice I’d give to anyone new coming into this field or any field really is to follow your passion. Don’t let other people, you know, tell you what you can and can’t do. Certainly, set your mind to what you’d like to accomplish and work hard. I can’t stress enough, you know, being the hardest worker in the room and really putting your full self into it. Specific to the field of cybersecurity or process automation, I think it’s actually a fantastic field where you can have an impact on the critical infrastructure of the world. When you think about the systems that we’re securing, you know, they’re helping to provide energy and water, and really maintaining our way of life as we know it. Every night when we go home, the air conditioning is on, the lights are on, we have clean drinking water. Securing those systems and making sure that they are protected from attack is really a noble, noble cause that people can join in and make a difference. And so, it’s an exciting field. It’s always changing. Every day there’s something new. And so for folks that are interested in staying up to date with the latest and greatest, and never getting bored, cyber and process automation is a great place to be. Jim: Wow. It sounds like, yeah, everybody knows if the power is not making its way to their house, or there’s a problem with the water or something else. So, yeah, this may be the noblest of noble causes. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Jaime, and I look forward when we do round two here in a little while. Jaime: Thanks, Jim. Me too, looking forward to it. End of Transcript Visit the ICS Cyber Security section on Emerson.com for more ways to protect your distributed control system and other elements of your operational technology infrastructure.The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Jim Cahill, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.

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Stop Trying to "Change"

Unskippable with Jim Kukral

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 27, 2018 4:29

Man, oh man. When did everything get so messed up? Why is every book or podcast or guru telling me that if I want to be happy, I MUST wake up at 5am, or I MUST have a side hustle, or I MUST make my bed? As if no person in human history ever had success unless they did one, or all, of those things. We know that's not true. Here's the problem with "four hour workweeks" and "five second rules" and "miracle mornings". While they are wonderful concepts, and for the people that do choose to implement them many have transformations... The problem is that most people just flat out aren't going to do what's required. They're just not. It's like your doctor telling you to stop smoking and lose weight. You know she's right. But there you are, you leave her office, get in your car, and light up a smoke as you're sitting in the McDonald's parking lot. Look, all the motivation and systems and formulas in the world aren't going to help you change your life and your career or business unless you actually want to change. So yeah, that's where you have to start. Do you want to change, or don't you? Then, and only then, are you going to be open to a system for change. But let's get to the core of it all. The word "change". I once got booked to speak to a room full of life coaches. Great crowd, nice audience. The first thing I said when I got on stage was, "Stop calling yourself coaches. Nobody wants to be coached." To which half of the room applauded and the other half wanted to stab me in the heart. Stop trying to "change". Do you know how difficult it is to "change" a behavior or a mindset? Studies have shown that change is more difficult than giving up heroin, or even cigarettes. How about we try something different. Stop trying to change; Start learning how to become Unskippable. Unskippable is in every one of us. We don't have to change to be Unskippable. We just have to start thinking differently about what we want out of our lives and business/career, and then go do it. This book offers no system or formula. You don't need to wake up at 5am. You don't need to journal your feelings, or learn how to meditate. You just need to modify your thoughts and realize what you really want your life to be like, then make small, simple (I almost said changes) "adjustments". Isn't that just another way of saying change, Jim? Well, I guess you could say that. When I told the life coaches to stop calling themselves coaches, that did not mean they still weren't coaching people. They weren't abandoning their business model and what they teach. They were just modifying how it was presented. So yeah, you're of course going to "change" the way you think and work. But by not calling it that, you're going to have a much better chance of actually accomplishing your goals.

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Best of Wednesday / 07-18-18

Humble and Fred Radio

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 18, 2018 110:53

Classic moments combined with extra fun worth the tape / A few exra minutes with Rita Carrey on life and his brother Jim / Well-published newspaper columnist Sue-Ann Levy / A classic call with Marilu Henner / Tara Slone and Tom McKay from Joydrop.

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Jim Tackles DNA & Book of Mormon

Gospel Tangents Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 8, 2017 9:46

[paypal-donation] We're continuing our discussion with Jim Vun Cannon, a counselor in the First Presidency of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Jim gave his testimony of the Book of Mormon in part 2 of our conversation, and we touched on the Book of Mormon in our previous episode, and we talked about Remnant scriptures including the Doctrine & Covenants and Book of Mormon. Today we will delve deeper into mysteries such as whether issues surrounding DNA & Book of Mormon are compatible. I first asked Jim if he believes the Book of Mormon is a literal history or simply a foundational scripture as the Community of Christ believes? GT: Let's talk about the Book of Mormon. We've talked about that. I know in the LDS Church, most people I think believe it's a literal history. It seems like in the Community of Christ, most probably don't. {chuckles} Jim: I would say you're probably right. GT: Where does the Remnant Church fit on that spectrum? Jim: We believe that it is an absolute literal history. We believe that there were Lamanites and Nephites and Jacobites and Josephites and all the different –ites that were here upon the land. Obviously there's a good debate on where they really were exactly for North and South America and so forth, and where maybe in North America and so forth. But yes we do believe that it was a literal people that were here. DNA & Book of Mormon I also asked him some of the questions of critics. GT: One of the big knocks against the Book of Mormon is DNA. A guy by the name of Simon Southerton, an Australian researcher has said you don't find any evidence of DNA. I think the LDS—well I won't say the LDS Church response, [because] the LDS Church I believe is neutral on the issue, but a lot of LDS researchers have said, well the population was probably a lot smaller, so you wouldn't have any evidence of that. What do you think? Jim: Well you know, first of all, I think that whole study—I feel there was a motive to putting together that research, first of all. I don't feel that was fair and scientific in the way that it was done. Considering if you really want to look at the groups of people, you could argue that Ishmael, is that really the name of a good practicing Jew? I don't know, but I have a lot of questions. Oh by the way, how many peoples actually came to the Americas? I'll just put it that way. We'll summarize. How many different people came? Well there were a lot of people, and they're finding a lot of archaeological evidence of a lot of people, so to say that we know that all the Indians were Lamanites I think is really a fallacy. I don't think you can really say that. They may or may not be. We really don't know which ones really are or aren't. For them to go forward and try to put together DNA evidence based on that, plus the other thing is you're talking about many, many generations back. Trying to argue that you've got somebody you can match DNA with from that time period to this time period, I don't think that science is quite there yet for that. I really think that it's a, “ah, we got them! We're going to disprove the Book of Mormon in one fell swoop.” It's just kind of like, ”no guys, I don't think so.” I just don't think that from my background, being in engineering, I don't really feel like all the boxes were checked. I don't really feel like it was an exhaustive study. I felt like there was more of a motive for putting together the research instead of actually looking at it objectively.” Do you agree with Jim. Did Simon Southerton have an agenda to prove the Book of Mormon was false? Check out our conversation….. [paypal-donation] https://youtu.be/m8olSkDeSJQ

5 Questions for Principal Process Control Consultant James Beall

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 28, 2017

Emerson's James Beall joins our continuing podcast series on 5 Questions for an Emerson Expert. The goal of these podcasts is to share some tidbits on how they got their start in a science, technology, engineering & math (STEM)-based career and more about their background, interests and advice for new folks joining our world of automation. James provides Control Performance Consulting and hands-on implementation for control improvement projects in the chemical, refining, upstream oil & gas and the pharmaceutical industries. Some of his key areas of expertise include instrumentation and control valve performance, advanced regulatory control and advanced multivariable control. Leave a comment below, send me an email or LinkedIn message if there is an Emerson expert you'd like me to interview as well as the questions you'd like me to ask them… thanks! https://www.emersonautomationexperts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/5-Questions-James-Beall.mp3 Transcript Jim: Hi, I’m Jim Cahill and welcome to our “5 Questions for an Emerson Expert” podcast series. Today I’m joined by James Beall. James is a principal process control consultant with more than 35 years of experience in the industry and in process automation. Welcome, James. James: Hi Jim, how you doing? Good to be here. Jim: I’m doing just great today. So, I like to start out and ask everyone what made you decide to pursue a STEM based career? You know, science, technology, engineering and math? James: Well, probably the biggest influence was the fact that my dad was a Mechanical Engineer, and of course growing up I did all things mechanical with him. He taught me from a very early age how to work on engines, cars, everything! , I was rebuilding lawnmower motors and go kart motors when I was less than 10 years old. I got involved with the mechanical engineering side of things, but in general just the engineering way of thinking. I also got very good tutoring in math! I was very strong in math with the help from my dad and enjoyed that. That’s probably the biggest influence, and then maybe the other thing is my grandfather was a medical doctor. It seemed like to me being a doctor was too much involvement with people, and back then I didn’t want to have that much involvement with people. But now I love it and I probably spend more time with people than my doctor siblings! So that’s been interesting to see that evolve. Jim: Well that’s fascinating. So what made you specifically get from that electrical engineering degree into process automation? James: I enrolled in chemical engineering but switched to electrical engineering and finished up in that degree. When I was interviewing for my first job, I saw a company in Longview, Texas called Eastman Kodak, the chemicals division, that was close to where I grew up. I thought that’d be kind of neat to go back there and there were two openings for electrical engineers: one in electrical power and one in process instrumentation, which I had never heard of. So I interviewed in both areas and when I went back at the end of the day to the engineering superintendent, he asked me which area I was interested in and I said, “Well instrumentation engineering looks really interesting,” and he leaned over at me, and I can still remember him saying, “Are you sure?” I wondered what I was getting into, but I’ve absolutely loved it. I did take a lot of chemical engineering actually along with my EE degree, and I had a good chemical engineer mentor in the instrument engineering group that really brought out the application of chemical engineering in that field. And of course, as soon as I got into instrumentation I started getting interested in control and then got involved with DCS’s and put in the first Provox system in the mid-80s and got interested in control. And went to all the advanced Emerson…well back the Fisher Rosemount Systems’ Advanced Control Seminars, and spent as much time as possible around people...

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Jim Downing USN Retired Author The Other Side of Infamy: My Journey Through Pearl Harbor and the World War

Business Leaders Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 3, 2017 51:59

Jim Downing, USN Retired, Author “The Other Side of Infamy: My Journey Through Pearl Harbor and the World War” With greatest respect to Jim and his shipmates lost at Pearl Harbor, I included the entire transcript of the interview. Host: Today, we’re honored to have Jim Downing, author of “The Other Side of Infamy: My Journey Through Pearl Harbor and the World War.” Jim’s ship was the Navy battleship the USS West Virginia, where Jim was a Gunner’s Mate First Class and ship’s Postmaster. Jim retired from the Navy with 24 years of service, at rank of Lieutenant, and has remained a utility player during his 27 years, full-time staff with the Navigators, serving in positions ranging from Deputy President to Chair of the Board of Directors. Jim was married for 68 years to Morena, who passed away in 2010, and is parents of 7 children. Jim is still known as Navigator #6. Jim, welcome to Business Leaders podcast. We’re honored. Jim: No, sir. I’m honored to be here. Host: This is awesome. We’re in Jim’s living room, and we’re chatting away at the kitchen table, where, I think, everything that’s important has ever happened in life, is at the kitchen table. And so I thought I’d go through and, you know, Jim, to kind of start out, take us back to your growing up, and a bit about yourself in Plevna, Missouri. Jim: I was born at the beginning of World War I. My father worked in defense plants. Money was pretty scarce, so he had an uncle that lived right outside of Kansas City, so he got a job there so I could be delivered by my uncle. And then, my great-grandparents bought a large parcel of land in Missouri, directly out of Louisiana Purchase. So we still have a section of that in the family today. So, there’s a small town by the name of Plevna. It was settled by Bulgarian immigrants. And apparently, they have a town by that name, so they named it after their hometown in Bulgaria. Host: I bet you Plevna, Missouri looks just like Plevna, Bulgaria. What do you bet? Jim: Well, something one of my friends checked it out on the Google, and the population is now 40. It was 100 when I lived there, so it’s cut in half now. Host: You know, it’s interesting to grow up in rural America. And I think about the times that you grew up, and I read your book recently, and you were talking about some of the early influences, the Zane Grey and Horatio Alger books that you read. You know, as a young man, did you find that those books shaped part of your thinking? Jim: Yes, it did. Books were scarce, and I liked the Zane Grey books and the Horatio Alger books. In fact, that’s all we had. So I read them over and over and over again. And as I mentioned in my book, the Horatio Alger books shaped, you know, that if you do the right thing, you’ll be a success. So, I felt they were pretty much all the same, just changed the name of the characters in them. But the theme was that somebody went into town, found a sponsor, did the right things, and ended up a success. So I kind of adopted that philosophy. I could be a success. Host: You know, it’s an interesting thought process when you’re in a smaller community looking for a role model. And, for you, on access to the books, where did the books come from? Was there a local library? Jim: We had a small library, but these were family books. So I apparently had ancestors who were interested in Zane Grey. Host: Interestingly enough, my family had an interest in Zane Grey, so I made it through the entire series of Zane Grey books myself, more than once. So we share that in common, for sure. You know, in your book, rolling forward a little bit further down the road, you mention the influence of radio in your life and listening to the World Series on radio, and listening to, I think it was Dempsey’s fight on the radio. I think, for

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Death Sentence!

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 1970 59:53

In this episode of Bloody Angola, Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell you some stories you will have to hear to believe regarding inmate of Louisiana State Penitentiary who were sentenced to DEATH ROW getting exonerated after DNA evidence or other substantiating evidence cleared them of their crime and saved them from getting the needle.#DeathSentence #DNA #InnocenceProject #BloodyAngola #PodcastFULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Jim: And we're going back to our roots, Woody Overton.Woody: Right back inside the wire. Jim: Back inside the wire. Just when you thought we got out. Just coming back here. Woody: Yep. [crosstalk] They made me come back in. Jim: That's right. Look, we talk a lot on this show about the advancement, especially DNA, something you've worked with in the past many times. Woody: Yeah. This is a huge testament to DNA. When I started, it was really coming in its own. Now it's so much more advanced. I remember putting rushes on murder cases, and it taken six months to get the results back. Jim: That's crazy. Even back, we talked about Sean Vincent Gillis, and that was really probably one of the first times they were ever able to really rush something to the point where it really helped because you had to get that serial killer off the street. Woody: Derrick Todd Lee too. Still, even the rush back then took a long time. Not like it is now. Jim: Right. Woody: You know what? I'm totally for it. And let me do this real quick. I want to give a shout out to all our patrons. We love and appreciate each and every one of y'all. We love all you listeners, and bloody shooting to the top of the charts. It's because y'all are listening, liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. And we love y'all very much. Back to the DNA, it's just come leaps and bounds that continue to change every day. We always tell you Bloody Angola is going to be different, and this is different. You would think, oh, hard ass like me, lock everybody up, I don't believe in that. I believe if you're innocent you're innocent. Jim: If you're guilty, lock them up.Woody: If you're guilty, you- [crosstalk] Jim: Don't wait [crosstalk] Woody: [crosstalk] -you'll pay hella jail. Jim: [laughs] Hella jail, that's right. We did want to preface this episode with some of these guys were exonerated from DNA. Some of them, it was other reasons. And we're going to get into that. The intriguing thing about today's episode is many of these guys that we're going to tell you about were actually serving in death row. They've been sentenced to death. Woody: Today, we're going to be talking about people or convicts who were exonerated and released from Bloody Angola.Jim: Yes. We want to kind of start this off. I'm just going to tell you about the Innocence Project. The Innocence Project was founded in 1992 by Barry Scheck, y'all, familiar with him through OJ. It was basically formed to assist incarcerated individuals who could be proven innocent, primarily through DNA testing. Although sometimes they find so many holes in a case, they'll pick up a case where there's so many problems that they take that case on and look for exonerations in those cases. The average prison sentence before they'll take on a case is 14 years before their exoneration or release. And so, it's a process, even with those guys, but we're going to them to it. Woody: They don't just take anybody, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: One of the ones I can tell you about if-- ready to get started?Jim: I'm ready. Woody: Is John Thompson. John Thompson was from Orleans Parish. I'll just read you some of the facts of the case, some of the highlights, and what ultimately ended up happening. Shortly after midnight on December 6th, 1984, Raymond Liuzza was shot several times in the course of an armed robbery just around the corner from his New Orleans, Louisiana apartment. When the cops arrived, they found Liuzza laying on the ground, but he was still conscious. He told them he was robbed and shot by an African American male and then took him to hospital and he died. On December 8th, responded to tip, the police arrested two men in connection with the crime. John Thompson and Kevin Freeman. Photos of the two men were published in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, and soon afterwards, police received a call from a family that had been carjacked several months earlier, claiming that Thompson looked like the person who had robbed them. Thompson was charged with the murder. Meanwhile, Freeman agreed to testify against Thompson in the murder trial, and in return, prosecutors charged him only with being an accessory to the murder. He was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. We're talking about Freeman, y'all. The world-famous New Orleans district attorney, Harry Connick, Sr,, not Junior, that's his son, the singer and actor, decided to try Thompson for the carjacking case first, knowing that a conviction could be used against him in the murder trial. Based primarily on the eyewitness testimony of the three carjacking victims, all of whom were minors, Thompson was convicted on April 4, 1985, and sentenced to 49 years in prison. That is for the carjacking. Y'all, always told you that eyewitness testimony is the worst testimony there is, but doesn't mean it's not true. At his murder trial, held shortly thereafter, the prosecution demonstrated that Thompson had at one time been in possession of both the murder weapon and a ring taken from Liuzza's finger. Thompson decided not to testify in his own defense because if he did, his felony carjacking charge would have been admissible to the jury. As a result, he was unable to tell the jury that Freeman had sold him the murder weapon and the ring. Freeman, the main witness for the prosecution, claimed that he and Thompson had robbed Liuzza together and that Thompson had shot him. This testimony was contradicted by the statements of eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen only one man running from the scene of the crime. Richard Perkins, who had originally called in the tip implicating Thompson and Freeman, also testified for the prosecution, claiming that he had heard Thompson make incriminating remarks. Thompson was found guilty and sentenced to death on May 8th, 1985. Fast forward a whole bunch of years, y'all, and events took a dramatic turn in April 1999, 30 days before scheduled execution, an investigator discovered that there was a blood stain from the robber on the clothing of one of the carjacking victims and that this evidence had never been disclosed to the defense. It's Brady, y'all. If they had it, they got to give it up. The prosecutor had ordered testing to determine the blood type of the stain, and in fact, they had rushed the test. But when the blood type was determined-- I guess this was before DNA. Blood type was determined and was different from Thompson's. They concealed it. Defense attorneys then obtained an affidavit Michael Rielhmann, a former district attorney, who said that five years earlier, in 1994, Gerry Deegan, one of Thompson's prosecutors, admitted on his deathbed that the blood evidence was intentionally suppressed and that he left a report about it on the desk of James Williams, the lead prosecutor. Williams denied ever seeing the report. Defense attorneys also learned that Perkins, the witness who testified that Thompson had admitted the murder, had received $15,000 from the Liuzza family as a reward. When this evidence was presented to the trial judge, he granted a stay of execution and dismissed Thompson's carjacking conviction, but he denied Thompson's motion for a new trial on the Liuzza murder. In 2001, however, he reduced Thompson's death sentence to life in prison without parole. Jim: Wow. Woody: Pretty crazy, right? Jim: Very crazy. Woody: In July of 2002, the Louisiana Fourth Circuit Court of Appeal overturned Thompson's murder conviction and remanded the case for retrial, ruling that the false robbery conviction obtained by deliberate government misconduct had deprived Thompson of his constitutional right to testify on his own behalf at the murder trial. Y'all, I'm not against that. I mean, give him a new trial, if it was messed up. At the second trial, Thompson was able to explain that he purchased the murder weapon from Freeman, and the defense called several new witnesses who claimed to have seen only one man fleeing the scene of the murder. They said that the man did not look like Thompson, but did resemble Freeman who, in the meantime, had been killed in a shootout with a security guard. On May 8, 2003, a jury acquitted Thompson after deliberating for 35 minutes, and he was released from prison the same day. Y'all, 35 minutes is for conviction? That's outstanding. But for exoneration, I mean, that's unbelievable. It normally takes hours--[crosstalk] Jim: They were pretty convinced. Woody: Yeah, they want to make sure. In 2008, Thompson won a $14 million civil suit against the District Attorney's Office. That judgment was reversed by the US Supreme Court in March 2011 on the grounds that the misconduct in the case was not the result of a deliberate policy or systematic indifference by the New Orleans DA's Office. He got $330,000 in state compensation. But you know what? That's a long time to be on death row, and you didn't do it. Jim: He's a good example of someone that it wasn't necessarily DNA evidence that exonerated him, but it was the facts of the case. Woody: I have heard this case before, and actually, I think it's pretty well documented-Jim: Thank you.Woody: -but what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. But you know what the sad thing is? In 2017, Thompson died of a heart attack at age 55. Jim: Yeah, man. And you nailed it when you're talking about those bloodstains. Back when he was convicted, it was '85. There was no DNA. Woody: I think it was like '92 when the first time it was used successfully. Even then, most prosecutors thought it was junk science. So, it had to be used over and over again successfully and tested and tested and tested and it grew to what it is today. Jim: That's right. Let me tell you about another case out of death row in Angola that was actually-- Woody: That place you don't want to go.Jim: No, you don't want to go there. But was actually reversed over DNA, and that is the case of Ryan Matthews. So, Matthews was 16 years old, y'all, at the time he was sentenced-- or arrested rather, and was 17 when he was sentenced to death for shooting of Tommy Vanhoose, who was a convenience store owner in Bridge City, Louisiana. You familiar with Bridge City? Woody: Yeah. That's where the juvenile prison used to be. Jim: There you go. So, in April of 1997, a man wearing a ski mask entered the store and demanded money. When Vanhoose refused, the perpetrator shot him four times and fled, taking off his mask and diving into the passenger seat of a window of an awaiting car. Several eyewitnesses viewed the perpetrator's flight. One woman was in her car and watched the perpetrator run from the store, fire shots into her direction, and leap in the car. So, these guys were hightailing it. They done shot somebody four times. When she was later showed a photographic array, which is like a six pack, y'all, she tentatively identified Matthews as the assailant. By the time of the trial, she was sure that Matthews was the gunman. Two other witnesses in the same car watched as the perpetrator shed his mask, gloves, and shirt as he fled. The driver claimed to have seen the perpetrator's face in his rearview mirror while he was being shot at and trying to block the escape. The witness and his passenger were brought to a show-up hours later. The driver identified Matthews. His passenger was unable to make an identification.As per our previous case, identifications not very reliable now.Ryan Matthews and Travis Hayes, both 17 at the time, were stopped several hours after the crime because the car they were riding in resembled the description of the getaway car. They were arrested and Hayes was then questioned for over six hours. His initial statements to investigators, Hayes claimed that he and Matthews were not in the area where the crime occurred. Hayes eventually confessed that he was the driver of the getaway car. He stated that Matthews went into the store, shots went off and Matthews ran out and got into the car. Both boys were described as borderline intellectually disabled. In 1999, based mainly on identifications, Matthews was convicted of murder and sentenced to death.Woody: There you go. Jim: Hayes was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. Matthews had maintained his innocence since the arrest. The defense presented evidence that forensic testing of the mask excluded both Matthews and Hayes. A defense expert also testified the car the two boys were driving, the reason they were stopped, could not have been a getaway car because the passenger side window that Matthews allegedly jumped through was inoperable and could not be rolled down. How do you get around that? I don't know, but they did. Other witnesses to the crime described the shooter as being much shorter than Matthews as well, which that's not necessarily that reliable. Height is hard to determine. Woody: You can put four people in the room and four people may get the different height and weight or whatever on. If it's a correct identification, basically you can bring them back two weeks later and they can still pick out the facial features.Jim: That's right. So, y'all ready to hear how this person got exonerated? Well, DNA testing in another murder case proved to be the keys to proving Matthews' innocence, another murder occurring shortly after Vanhoose's death in the same area. A local resident named Rondell Love was arrested. He pled guilty, and Love bragged to other inmates that he also killed Vanhoose. And that happens, y'all, you'd be surprised. Woody: Street cred. Jim: This got back to Matthews' attorneys, I'm sure, through Matthews, and they began to investigate Love. DNA test results from the second murder were compared to the results from the Matthews' conviction, indicating that Love had been wearing the mask that was left behind in the Vanhoose's murder. Testing on the mask, gloves and shirt had already excluded Matthews and Hayes, but they became conclusive after Love's profile was included. Woody: There you go. Jim: So somehow, even though they were excluded from all that DNA in the first trial, there was no one to necessarily pin it on. So, it got pinned on them. Well, you can't get around it when someone else's profile shows up. Over a year after this information was discovered, he was granted a new trial. He wasn't released. He was just granted a new trial. But he did eventually get released. The new trial, he was found not guilty and became the 14th death row inmate in the United States proven innocent by post-conviction DNA testing. Woody: That's crazy.Jim: After two more years of legal battles, you'd think he'd get out right away?Woody: They got to make sure. Jim: Yeah. Travis Hayes was released in December 2006 and exonerated in January of 2007. You may think that someone in this position, they must have got a ton of money. I mean, you sentenced to death, for Christ's sake. He received $252,000 in state compensation and another $133,000 from the federal courts. To tell you how resilient this cat is, in 2019, Matthews graduated from Texas University with his bachelor's degree. Woody: Cool. Jim: I get chills from that because, man, look--Woody: They were going to kill him.Jim: They were going to kill him. Woody: I get it, not to get into death penalty arguments, whatever, but I'm telling you this I'm glad John Thompson got off death row, and I'm glad he got off a death row, but I promise you, there's some monsters up there deserve to be there.Jim: Oh, there's no doubt about it.Woody: Don't deserve [crosstalk] to breathe. Jim: Well, it's like you always say, just make sure you get it right. That's the important thing.Woody: Yeah, that's it. If you're going to do it, do it right. Especially when you're talking about taking somebody's life. That's why they have the appeals process the last 20 plus years before they kill them. Let's talk about Glenn Ford. Glenn Ford from up in Caddo, that's where Hugo Holland-- Jim: That's right. Caddo--[crosstalk] Woody: He was another one, y'all, sentenced to death. He was convicted in 1984. But let me tell you about it. On November 5th, 1983, a 56-year-old Isadore Rozeman, a jeweler and watchmaker, was found shot to death in his shop in Shreveport, Louisiana. His pockets were pulled, and items were missing from the store. One of the first people to be questioned was 34-year-old Glenn Ford, an affable man who did yard work for Rozeman. Ford denied being involved in the crime, though he admitted he had been near the store at some point earlier in the day and witnesses told police they saw him near the store. In February 1984, items from Rozeman's store turned up in a pawnshop and a handwriting analyst said that Ford had signed the pawn slips. Marvella Brown told police that her boyfriend, Jake Robinson, Jake's brother, Henry, and Ford were at her house on the day of the crime and left together after Ford asked "if they were going." Brown said Ford was carrying a brown paper bag. When the men returned later that day, Ford was carrying a different bag and had a gun in his waistband. Jake Robinson also was carrying a gun. Brown said Jake showed her a bag containing watches and rings. That is suspicious.Ford, along with Jake and Henry Robinson and a fourth man, George Starks, were charged with capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery in February 1984. November 1984, Ford went to trial. And Ford was represented by two appointed defense attorneys, neither of whom had ever handled a criminal trial, and one of whom had never handled a criminal case of any sort. That's kind of bad. Jim: Yeah. That's not the attorneys I want to represent--Woody: Right. When you're on trial for your life. Jim: Oh, my God. Woody: If you're in Livingston Parish, you want Jasper Brock handling your business. [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. This is a death penalty trial. Woody: If you're anywhere else over on that side of Louisiana, you want Thomas Davenport out of Alexandria to handle it, because that's what they do. These guys had never even handled a case like this. Jim: It's crazy. Woody: Anyway, Brown fell apart on the witness stand and said on cross-examination that detectives had fabricated her responses and she had lied in her testimony. She said she had been shot in the head earlier in her life and the bullet was never removed causing difficulty with thinking and hearing. Jim: Makes sense.Woody: Several witnesses testified that they saw Ford near the victim's store on the day of the shooting, but no one testified that they saw the crime. A gunshot residue expert testified for the prosecution that after Ford had voluntarily come in for questioning, he recovered gunshot residue on Ford's hands. A fingerprint analyst said he lifted a single fingerprint from a paper bag found at the scene. He said that the print contained a “whorl” type pattern and that Ford had such a pattern, while the Robinson Brothers did not. Dr. George McCormick, Caddo Parish coroner, testified that he had analyzed the scene of the crime, including the position of Rozeman's body and a duffel bag found next to the body with a bullet hole in it. McCormick said he concluded that the victim was shot by someone who held the gun in his left hand. Ford is left-handed and the Robinsons are right-handed. Not looking good for Ford.Jim: No, not at all. Woody: McCormick also said that Rozeman had been dead for as long as two hours by the time the body was discovered, a time when witnesses said they saw Ford near the store. Ford testified on his own behalf, which most of them don't, but he testified and denied his involvement in the crime. He admitted selling items to the pawn shop, but said he'd got them from the Robinson brothers.On December 5th, 1984, the jury convicted Ford of capital murder and conspiracy to commit armed robbery. Following the jury's recommendation, Ford was sentenced to death on February 26th, 1985. After Ford was convicted and sentenced, the prosecution dismissed the charges against the Robinson Brothers and Starks. Jim: Let me just say this, okay, the inexperience of the lawyers that you mentioned is glaring when they allowed him to testify in his own defense in a death penalty case. Holy crap.Woody: I don't know when they changed the law, but I know Jasper Brock in Livingston Parish-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah. Jasper Brock would say, "He ain't talking." [chuckles] Woody: And I know Thomas Davenport, they're certified in death penalty cases. You have to actually get certified to defend somebody in death penalty cases now.Jim: Yeah. Probably, this case caused it.Woody: Probably one of them I mean, they should've known this shit was going to get done the way--[crosstalk] Jim: That's crazy. Woody: Still, I believe everybody has the right to a fair trial. Ford goes to death row. His appeals were unsuccessful until 2000 when the Louisiana Supreme Court ordered a hearing on post-conviction petition for a new trial filed by the Capital Post Conviction Project of Louisiana. At the hearing in 2004, a defense expert testified that McCormick's attempt to reconstruct the crime had no connection to known facts and were speculation at best, and I agree with that, they're talking about the coroner. You can't tell somebody's left-handed from a bullet hole and a duffel bag. Anyway, another defense expert said that the gunshot residue evidence was meaningless because it was gathered more than a day after the crime and that Ford could have easily picked up the residue merely by being in a police station where such residue is extremely common.Another defense expert said that the prosecution's fingerprint expert misidentified the fingerprint on the paper bag, and it could have been left by the Robinson Brothers. All very, very true. Ford's lawyers at the trial testified that they were very inexperienced in criminal cases. Jim: Even the lawyers. Woody: [crosstalk] -Jasper and Thomas Davenport. And had no training in capital defense. If I was Ford, I'd be raising hell. I'm like, "You got me two guys that are wet behind the ears. Give me a pro."Jim: Crazy, man. Woody: Jasper Brock or Thomas Davenport. They're even saying that he deserves--Jim: Yeah. They go on the stand and say, "Yeah, we pretty--" [crosstalk] Woody: One of the lawyers who specialized in oil and gas law had never tried a case to a jury, either civil or criminal. That's like my brothers. One's a tax lawyer and one's a maritime lawyer. They've never been inside a courtroom. The extent of his prior criminal work was handling two guilty pleas. That's easy enough. The other lawyer, who was out of law school less than two years and was working at an insurance firm handling personal injury cases. Both said they were unaware they could seek court funding for defense experts, shocker, and didn't hire any because they couldn't afford to pay out of their own pockets. Both were unaware of how to subpoena witnesses from out of state. So, Ford's family members, who lived in California, did not testify for Ford at the guilt or punishment phase of the trial. The defense presented numerous police reports that had never been disclosed to the defense.The report showed that Shreveport Police had received two tips from informants implicating only Jake and Henry Robinson in the robbery and murder. Other police reports showed that some detectives had falsely testified at Ford's trial about statements Ford made during his interrogation. Testimony that the prosecution should have realized was false, the defense claimed. Moreover, other police reports that were withheld from the defense contained conflicting statements by Marvella Brown and by the witnesses who said that they saw Ford near the store at the time of the crime. Reports could have been used to impeach the witness testimony at trial. Jim: Wow. Woody: But still, the post-conviction motion was denied. In 2012, the Caddo Parish District Attorney's Office began reinvesting the case, and in 2013, disclosed that an informant told authorities that Jake Robinson had admitted shooting Rozeman.Jim: Oh, wow.Woody: So, the honorable and right thing to do, in March 2014, the prosecution filed a motion to vacate Ford's conviction and death sentence in light of the newly discovered evidence from the informant. On March 11th, 2014, a judge vacated Ford's convictions, and the prosecution dismissed their charges, and Ford was then released. Jim: How about that? Woody: Even after all that, they'd fallen so hard in the second trial, etc. They came forward-- I think, you know what? I don't know if Hugo Holland was still the prosecutor up there at the end. I'll have to look it up. Maybe I'll ask him. He just messaged me last night. But that's an honorable thing to do. But in March 2015, a Caddo Parish district judge denied Ford's request for state compensation. Judge ruled that Ford knew the robbery was going to happen, did not try to stop it, that he attempted to destroy evidence by selling items taken robbery, and that he tried to find buyers for the murder weapon. Unfortunately, in June of 2015, Ford died of lung cancer. Jim: Yeah, that's a good kind of segue for a second, Woody, just to talk about, look, not all the guys we're going to tell you about today are Citizens of the Year. Some of them definitely committed some crimes or may have withheld some evidence, like in this case. But that's a long jump from being sentenced to death for a murder you didn't commit. Woody: Look, we have our legal process for a reason. A lot of my cases are bad cases where the witnesses are like really shady people or they're criminals themselves. Well, guess what? A lot of these crimes don't happen with a bunch of choir boys. You know what I mean? You're not running with choir boys when you're going to murder somebody and steal the jury. Jim: You're going to put them to death--Woody: But having two inexperienced attorneys and all the other stuff and the guy saying about-- whatever, that's not enough to kill somebody.Jim: That's right. We're going to give you a two for one right here. And you're not going to believe this. Woody: Let me tell you real quick, I know I keep talking about [unintelligible 00:31:23]. I don't know if this is-- we'll have to get him on. This part, he's a part of this Innocence Project, but I don't think it's the same one. Barry Scheck is another one. He got a guy off a death row. Jim: Wow. He'd be great to sit down and talk to.Woody: He got a guy off a death row. He told me about the case, and I was like, "Holy shit." But I think it was out of Missouri. He's in all federal courts and everywhere else, Thomas Davenport, but he believes everybody deserves a criminal defense. And I agree with that. If you're a cop and you got it right, you got them right. Don't sentence them to death, don't send them away for life on some bullshit. Jim: That's right. We're going to tell you about Michael Graham and Albert Burrell. Now, both of these gentlemen were sentenced to death back in 1986.Woody: I was 16 years old. Jim: That was a long time ago. Long time ago. On the night of August 31, 1986, 65-year-old William Delton Frost and his 60-year-old invalid wife, Callie, were fatally shot in their two-room home in Downsville, Louisiana, which is almost like a plantation area of Louisiana, very rural. The front door had been smashed in and police believed the motive was robbery because Frost didn't trust banks and was believed to keep cash in a suitcase in his home. A lot of older people, especially in those times, they didn't put money in the bank. They put money everywhere but the bank. The shots appeared to have been fired through a window and their bodies were discovered a couple of days later.Now, six weeks after the murders, in October of 1986, Janet Burrell told police that she had met with her ex-husband on the night of the crime and that he had $2,700 in $100 bills and blood on his boots. That don't look good. She said he admitted firing the shots and she saw Frost's wallet on the front seat of his car. Wow. That's dead to rights. So, Burrell was arrested within the hour. Not long after, Kenneth St. Clair, another witness, told police that he had come to Louisiana with Michael Graham to find construction work. St. Clair told police that on the night of the crime, Graham and Burrell left the trailer where Graham was living near St. Clair about 8:30 PM returned, Graham had blood on him, St. Clair said. Now, you've got another person seeing that blood. At the time, Graham was in the Union Parish Jail on forgery charges for stealing a checkbook from a woman who hired him in St. Clair to do some work and then cashing about $300 worth of checks. Woody: Like you said, everybody in these stories aren't angels. Jim: Yeah. On October of 1986, Graham and Burrell were each indicted on two counts of murder. Two days later, Graham's cellmate, Olan Brantly, told authorities that Graham had admitted he and Burrell committed the crime [crosstalk] [chuckles] that's it. And that Burrell had fired the fatal shot. So, Graham goes on trial in 1987 in the Union Parish Courthouse. The state's key witnesses were Janet Burrell, who we told you about, and Brantly, we also told you about. So, they got him dead to rights although police reports said that Frost's wallet was recovered in his home. A deputy testified that he believed Burrell had returned to the Frost home and put the wallet back because he suspected his wife had seen it the night they met. Woody: That makes a lot of sense, right? Jim: Yeah. Woody: Why wouldn't you just throw it the fuck out-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, that's a stretch and a half right there.Woody: If you go back to the murder scene to put the wallet back, you got to think, "My wife might have seen it." Jim: [chuckles] Yeah. You're dumping it in the ditch or something. You're not putting it back. Another witness, 14-year-old Amy Opiel, who had spent the night of the crime with the St. Clair Family testified that she saw Graham Burrell sitting on the couch of a trailer with a suitcase and stacks of money. So, Graham was convicted on March 22nd, 1987, and sentenced to death. Burrell went on trial in August of '87, and he was also convicted and sentenced to death on pretty much the same evidence as Graham. Five months after Burrell was convicted, Janet Burrell, who by then was remarried to Burrell's brother James, I told you this was a good one, recanted her testimony, Woody Overton. She said she lied because she wanted to get custody of their child, which had been awarded to Albert Burrell prior to the murders. That's called motive to lie. So, the Louisiana Supreme Court, they grant--Woody: That's cold hearted.Jim: Yeah, that's cold.Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: That's as cold as you can get.Woody: How shitty of a mom does she have to be for the dad to get custody in the state of Louisiana? That's a rare deal. Jim: Well, somewhere along the line, her conscience weighed on her and she admitted she lied. The Louisiana Supreme Court granted Albert Burrell a hearing. A hearing. But at the hearing, Janet Burrell changed her testimony back, she's figuring it out, "Uh-oh. I might get in trouble for this," to her original story. The motion for a new trial was denied. Eventually, the conviction and death sentence got upheld by the Louisiana State Supreme Court. Meanwhile, Graham, don't forget about him, his case was also sent back for a hearing in motion for a new trial because of all this going on. His lawyers, they continued to get extension after extension, and they began to cover new evidence. By 1995, Janet Burrell shows up again. She says, "I'm going to recant my testimony again."Woody: She's unreliable now. Jim: Yeah. The crazy thing was, the execution date was in August of '96, she recants it in 1995. The lawyers, closer it gets to that execution date, they're 24 hours a day trying to get you a stay. 17 days away from his death, Burrell's lawyer obtains a stay. In 1998, Amy Opiel shows up again and recants her testimony, claiming she was pressured to lie and that it was St. Clair she saw with blood on his clothes and counting money. It wasn't Burrell. Okay, so Graham, he finally gets a hearing in 2000 where lawyers present all these recanted statements, as well as evidence that prosecutors failed to turn over, exculpatory evidence and impeachment evidence, including that Brantly had cut a deal with prosecutors on a pending charge, and then he was taking medication to control his mood swings. So, Brantly had a little bit of an anger problem, probably. On March 4th of 2000, Graham was granted a new trial after the Third Judicial District judge, Cynthia Woodard, ruled that prosecutors have misled the jury and failed to turn over exculpatory evidence. Woody, what is exculpatory evidence? Woody: Anything that could possibly make the jury find them not guilty.Jim: Yeah. On December 28th of 2000, they dismissed charges against Graham, and he was released from prison. This is a man that was 17 days from getting the needle. Woody: From executing.Jim: Yes. On January 2nd, you may wonder, "What about Burrell?" January 2nd of 2001, charges against Burrell were dismissed and he was released. Now, in 2016, a state appeals court upheld a lower court ruling denying Graham and Burrell compensation from the state of Louisiana. Burrell and Graham filed a federal lawsuit, but a jury ruled against them.Woody: They never solved the crime now. That's a cold case.Jim: Cold case. And here's the interesting thing. You may wonder why they're denying this money. Woody: It's hard. It's almost impossible to get a nickel for being wrongfully convicted.Jim: Exactly. Especially when you don't have DNA evidence to back it up, because basically that was so many inaccurate statements, but it didn't necessarily mean you didn't do it. It just means the people that said you did it were lying.Woody: A lot of times, if they have find gross negligence, they have to prove that DA actually did what they said that you did or whatever. Jim: That's it. Woody: Really, people don't really care about people that are exonerated, basically in paying--Jim: Those are two for one right there for you. Woody: A lot of states have a set amount. If you get exonerated, it's just whatever, which is crazy. There's no amount of money worth being on death row. In Angola, much less on death row. Jim: Yeah, the guy that was the singer that we did the episode. Woody: Yeah, Archie. Jim: How can you give that guy enough money? Woody: You can't. Jim: And he was exonerated on DNA evidence. He did not do it. Woody: You cannot give him enough.Jim: You can't give him enough. So, why are you putting a ceiling on it? Because every situation is different. Someone like that, you can't give them enough, but Goddang, you need to give them millions. Woody: They should never have to work or do anything.Jim: Period. Woody: Y'all, we will tell you another one, and this one is a rape and a murder. It's the case of Damon Thibodeaux, which is a good, strong Cajun name. And another Louisiana man that was sentenced to death row at Bloody Angola. On July 19th, 1996, at around 05:15 PM, 14-year-old Crystal Champagne left her apartment in Marrero, Louisiana, to walk to a nearby supermarket. When she didn't return home as expected, her mother went looking for her. At around 6:45 PM, her father and 21-year-old stepcousin, Damon Thibodeaux, also went out to look for her, as did several neighbors. The search continued until the following afternoon, when friends of the family heard that a girl who looked like Crystal had been seen walking on the levee. Y'all, if you're not from South Louisiana, levees are manmade walls that hold back the rivers or the bayous or whatever. Said Crystal been seen walking on the levee in previous evening. Not long after, Champagne's body was found near the levee. She was partially naked and had been strangled with a wire.Before the girl's body was found, JPSO investigators began interviewing people who had been with Champagne before she disappeared. An officer was interviewing Thibodeaux, who had been at the Champagne's home when Crystal left for the store. When he was informed that her body had been found, a homicide detective then took over the questioning. Thibodeaux initially said he knew nothing about the murder. He agreed to a polygraph test, which police said indicated deception regarding the girl's death. Uh-oh. Jim: And you being a former polygrapher--Woody: I'm still a polygrapher, actually-- it's just so hard. Basically, at that point, the polygraph is an interrogation tool. It's hard to clear somebody who's accused of murder if you're not good as fuck like me.Jim: [laughs] Woody: No, seriously. You got to set the questions, the questions that they lied to, their response has to be stronger than, "Did you rape and murder this girl?" Well, fuck you, you're in the hot seat. You're looking at a death penalty. It's hard to do. So, they failed him, whoever it was, I don't know who it was. They failed him on the polygraph, which, let me tell you, the polygraph is a long process, but it's basically made to break people down if they're guilty. And it's five or six hours. But I always said a good homicide interrogation doesn't even begin until after five or six hours. That's when you really start to get in that ass. Eventually, after nine hours of questioning, Thibodeaux said that he had raped and murdered Crystal. He was arrested and charged with both crimes. After he was allowed to eat and rest, Thibodeaux quickly recanted his confession, but was ignored. At Thibodeaux's 1997 trial, the prosecution built its case around his confession to the rape and murder. Dr. Fraser MacKenzie of the JPSO Coroner's Office, who performed autopsy on Crystal, testified the girl had been strangled to death and had injuries to her right eye and forehead consistent with getting hit by a bat or a rock. He noted bruises on the girl's buttocks, which he said indicated a struggle. He estimated Crystal had been dead about 24 hours before she was found. Separately, Dr. Lamar Lee, a professor of entomology at Louisiana State University, testified about the insect samples taken from Crystal's body. He said flies will lay eggs on a carcass within a couple of hours after death but will not lay eggs after dark. He said that the eggs were laid before nightfall--Jim: That's true?Woody: Yes. Jim: [crosstalk] as hell.Woody: Came out of the body farm originally out of Tennessee, but I didn't if they used maggots and the generation of flies, and they could tell you how long a body's been down like almost within 15 minutes. Jim: Damn.Woody: On July 19th, 1996, and calculated the age of the fly larvae or the maggots at between 24 and 28 hours old. They eat until they turn and fly, die and have more babies in cycle. There was no physical evidence linking Thibodeaux to the crimes, and though Crystal was found undressed, they found no semen on her body and no other physical evidence that she had been raped. A police officer testified that the semen could have been eaten by maggots. I guess.A week after the crime, detectives questioned two women they found walking on the levee. Both said they saw a man pacing and acting nervously on the evening of the murder. Both women picked a photo of Thibodeaux from a photographic lineup, and both identified him at the trial. Thibodeaux's attorney argued that detectives coerced the confession and suggested facts of the crime to him during their interrogation. On October 3rd, 1997, a jury convicted Thibodeaux of first-degree murder and rape. He was sentenced to death.Jim: Oh, my God.Woody: It's another one of our boys going up to death row.Jim: Death row. Woody: So, fast forward ten more years, in 2007, the JPSO district attorney's office agreed to reinvestigate the case with the Innocence Project and other lawyers who volunteered to work on the case. Now, DNA testing as well as other forensic testing was performed, and investigators interviewed numerous witnesses. The investigation revealed that the women who identified Thibodeaux as the man they had seen pacing near the crime scene had seen Thibodeaux's photo in the news media before police showed them the photo line-up. Moreover, the date of the sighting turned out to be the date after the body was found, when Thibodeaux was already locked up.Jim: That could be a problem. Woody: Right. Well, you know what, you got to give props to JPSO DA's office for even trying to reopen and look at this, because most of them are like, "Fuck you. I [crosstalk] conviction."Jim: Yeah, you did it. Woody: And he's on the death row. But extensive DNA testing on items recovered from the scene of the crime failed to detect any trace of biological material connecting Thibodeaux to the murder. Tests also showed that despite Thibodeaux's confession to rape, Crystal had not been sexually assaulted. And DNA testing on the cord used to strangle Crystal identified a male DNA profile that did not belong to Thibodeaux.Jim: Uh-oh.Woody: Well, doesn't totally excuse him. It could have been anything. Somebody else could have held the cord, and Thibodeaux could have been wearing gloves, we don't know. But the reinvestigation established firmly that Thibodeaux's confession was false. He claimed to have raped Champagne when in fact, no rape occurred. He said he strangled her with a gray speaker wire he took from his car, when in fact she was strangled with a red cord that had been tied to a tree near the crime scene. The prosecution consults an expert in false confessions who concluded that the confession was the result of police pressure, exhaustion, psychological vulnerability, and fear of the death penalty.Jim: Wow. Woody: Yeah. I mean, it can happen, y'all. I hope every day that I didn't get the juice from somebody on the wrong level, and I don't think I did. Anyway, on September 29th, 2012, he was released from death row. Thibodeaux later filed a federal civil rights lawsuit that was put on hold in January 2017. Like most of our guys, he died in August of 2021.Jim: Wow. Woody: But you know what? I know false confessions do happen. It's a real deal.Jim: Yeah. You'll confess to anything if you're tired enough.Woody: You had your ass [unintelligible 00:49:06].Jim: Yeah. Woody: [laughs] -eight, nine hours not eating, I mean, you're going to get the needle, da, da, da. It might have been, "Help me help you. You tell us what happened, we're going to tell that you cooperated." But the fact that he confesses and then they give him some food and he's like, [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. All right, we're going to give, y'all, one more today. We're going to tell you about a guy that definitely did not do it, was exonerated by DNA evidence, and that is Mr. Rickey Johnson. I saved this one for last today because he was in prison a long time for a rape he didn't commit. Matter of fact, he was in prison 25 years. Woody: That would suck. Jim: Yeah. One day in prison for something you didn't do, it sucks. All right, imagine 25 years. Let me tell you about the crime. In the early morning hours of July 12th, 1982, a 22-year-old woman awoke in her Northwest Louisiana home to find a man holding a gun to her head.Woody: Wow. Jim: The man raped the woman twice, stayed at her house for four hours. He told her his name was Marcus Johnson, and he mentioned several details. He claimed they were about his life. He claimed to be looking for an ex-girlfriend of his from Many, Louisiana. He said he was on probation. He was from Leesville, Louisiana. He even said he had relatives in the town of Natchitoches and Monroe. The weird thing is, he raped this chick twice and then he starts telling her his life story. It's almost like he felt like, "Now, we have a connection." Woody: Yeah, I got this special nut dumping connection.Jim: Yeah. What do you think the victim did? Woody: Pillow talk. Jim: She reports the rape the next morning, and at which point she told police her attacker was an African American man. He was between 5'6" and 5'8", and he weighed about 140 pounds. He had facial hair and a scarf tied around his head. A detective from the Sabine Parish Sheriff's Department contacted the Leesville Sheriff's Department to ask if they had a man named Marcus Johnson on file. There was no record of Marcus Johnson, but Leesville officers did tell detectives about Rickey Johnson. They said, "Well, we got another Johnson here. His name is Rickey. He's African American," and he was on probation for a traffic violation, a misdemeanor. Rickey matched some of the details that the lady provided of the perpetrator. He was from Leesville, he did have a child with a woman in Many, and he had relatives in Natchitoches and Monroe. So, he becomes a suspect. Nothing wrong with that. Police showed the victim a six pack, but it was actually only three pictures in this one. So, we're going to call it a three pack. Woody: Three pack. Jim: Yeah. It had Johnson's photo, which was at the center. Woody: I don't know how you get away with that.Jim: That picture was eight years old, and it was in the center. That's important. Mentally, you go to the center picture first. The victim told police that she had ample time to see the perpetrator's face and she identified Johnson as a perpetrator, even though he had a prominent gold tooth, which was never part of her description of the attacker. If a guy rapes you or a girl rapes you and they have a gold tooth, you're probably going to mention they had a gold tooth. Woody: You mentioned facial hair and everything else, and the gold tooth would stand out. Jim: Two days later, what do you think they do? They go arrest Rickey Johnson and they don't even investigate any other suspects at this time. They think they got their man. Johnson asserts his innocence. He says, "I didn't do any of this crap." Six days later, they conduct an in-person lineup with five individuals. Again, Johnson, they put in the center. And again, the victim identifies him as the assailant. The lineup was not presented at Johnson's trial because it was ruled inadmissible since Johnson did not have an attorney present at the lineup. I mean, it happens. Doesn't mean he didn't do it. Tests at the Shreveport Crime Lab determined that evidence collected from the victim at the hospital included sperm and serological testing that showed Johnson and 35% of the African American population could have been the contributor. So, that's basically no evidence. Too many people. Woody: Too many people are-- [crosstalk] African American. Jim: 35% of the entire population. Johnson was charged with aggravated sexual assault and tried before a jury in Sabine Parish, Louisiana. The victim identified him at trial saying she was positive. Woody: Game over.Jim: Positive that was him, and there was no question in her mind. She said the apartment was dark until about 15 minutes before he left. Prosecutors presented the victim's photo ID of Johnson and the serological evidence that his blood type matched the blood type of the perpetrator as determined--Woody: Back then, they didn't have DNA. They could give you blood types, basically. Jim: That's it. So, long story short, he gets convicted by the jury and he's sentenced to life without parole. Woody: Bloody Angola.Jim: Bloody Angola, baby, that's where you're going. So, Johnson contacts the Innocence Project at the suggestion of a guy named Calvin Willis, who was also a fellow inmate at Louisiana State Penitentiary. Willis was exonerated in 2003 after the Innocence Project secured DNA testing that proved his innocence. He basically called his boy and said, "If you really didn't do this, I got some people you need to talk to." Now, in late 2007, that DNA testing was performed on the sperm from the perpetrator of the crime. Remember, we said they had sperm. And the results proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Johnson could not have been the attacker.Woody: Wow. Jim: This is the first DNA exoneration using the new technology with DNA at this time called Mini-STR, which allows labs to accurately test degraded or extremely small samples. First time. [crosstalk] In January 2008, they do what anybody would do, they took that DNA profile and now they have a database in 2008.Woody: CODIS.Jim: Uh-oh. Woody: They got somebody else.Jim: They got a hit, Woody Overton. And John McNeal, who was already in prison serving a life sentence for rape committed in 1983 in the same apartment complex incidentally as the crime for which Johnson was convicted.Woody: How the hell do you not investigate that?Jim: It's crazy, ain't it? He's already in prison for that rape committed in the same complex. And so basically, they offer their apologies. After 25 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit, Rickey Johnson was released and exonerated in 2008 after 25 years in prison. The state of Louisiana later awarded him $245,000 in compensation. That ain't even close to what he needed. Woody: Did Johnson go beat that other guy's ass? [crosstalk] Jim: [chuckles] That's a good question. I couldn't find the answer to that. I'm sure he wanted to. Woody: [crosstalk] -find, you could. Jim: He would've got some inmate justice. Woody: Yeah. "Bitch, you knew I've been here all this time for this," and you know they all know what they're down for. Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: You get your David Constance been in there lying, saying, "My wife put me up, but not on rape charge."Jim: No. Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: In the same apartment complex.Woody: No doubt. That is crazy. Jim: It's freaking nuts. You would think that guy's already serving another life sentence. Why not just come clean and say, "I raped that girl"? Yeah, that's exactly right. Woody: Even convicts don't like rapists. Jim: That's right. Woody: Especially kid rapers and all that. Jim: That's right. So, long story short, he got $245,000 from the state of Louisiana. A federal wrongful conviction lawsuit was settled confidentially in 2011. So, he did get some money federally. Doesn't say how much. [crosstalk] Look, we hope y'all enjoyed these. Woody: We got to do more of these. Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: These cases you find, criminal mind is always fascinating to me, but this shit is--Jim: Love it. Woody: Hey, we're all about the Gerald Bordelon getting executed for raping and killing Courtney LeBlanc. We're all about--[crosstalk] Almost every one of these, except for Rickey Johnson was on death row. Jim: Yeah, something. There's been actually, for those of you out there that are playing trivia games, there's been 11 people released from Angola alone from death row based off of either DNA evidence or strong evidence to force an exoneration. Woody: I get that why people are against it. They say, "Oh, you kill one wrong, it's too many, shut it down." You haven't sat across the table or looked at the dead bodies and shit that I've looked at and looked in the face of evil. But hey, I'm a champion, and would go on-- As you know Jim, after my law enforcement career, I went on and defended people that were innocent, that I believe they were innocent. So, it is what it is. We're not totally one sided, but hell or jail or freedom. Jim: That's it. Woody: It's another great episode. Jim: Yeah. We loved it. Thank you, patrons, couldn't do it without you. Woody: Yes. Jim: If you're not a patron member, go join Patreon. We may do some of these just for patron members. Woody: Patrons get commercial-free, early release episodes and locked up episodes, which we probably have more locked up for Bloody Angola than I have locked up for Real Life Real Crime, so a bunch of them. All different kinds of stories. So, y'all go check it out. You can go to patreon.com and type in "Bloody Angola."Jim: Yep. /bloodyangolapodcast will pull you right to it. We appreciate it. We love each and every one of you. And until next time-Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman, your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim and Woody: Peace. 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The Rise & Fall of C-Murder | Bloody Angola Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 1970 40:45

This Thursday on Bloody Angola: A Prison Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman We bring you the story of Corey Miller, the brother of famed rap entrepreneur Master P and sibling to a business dynasty known as No Limit Entertainment.In 2009 C-Murder was sentenced to life in prison with no parole and made his way to Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola but has always maintained his innocence.With stars such as Kim Kardashian and Monica advocating for his release, Woody and Jim bring you not only the case itself but some information you will hear for the very first time.#nolimitrecords#masterp#CMurder#truecrimepodcast#rap#truecrime#kimkardashian#louisianastatepenitentiary#angola#woodyovertonpodcast#bloodyangola #JimChapmanPodcast #WoodyOverton #RealLifeRealCrimeThe Rise and Fall of C-Murder!FULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this edition of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Look, we've gotten more requests of this really in the past couple of months than we've ever had.Woody: Right. It's a really, really interesting case, actually born out of Louisiana, but known worldwide.Jim: Global.Woody: We're going to tie it into Bloody Angola but let's tell you about the case first. See, y'all today we're going to be talking about Corey Miller, also known as C-Murder, and he was a famous Deep South rapper. Corey was part of No Limit Records, and his brothers include the founder of No Limit and rapper Percy Miller known as Master P. And Vyshonn Miller known as Silkk the Shocker, and his nephew, Romeo Miller, known as Lil' Romeo.Before we tell you the full story regarding C-Murder, we have to tell you where he came from. He was born and raised in the very rough 3rd Ward Calliope Projects of New Orleans. His oldest brother, Percy, known as Master P, was a basketball star in high school and received a basketball scholarship to play for the University of Houston. However, Percy dropped out months into his freshman year and transferred to Merritt College in Oakland, California, to major in business. After the death of his grandfather, Percy inherited $10,000 as part of a malpractice settlement and opened up a record store called No Limit Records. Jim: That's right. In 1990, his older brother Percy released his first cassette tape. Yep, cassette tapes, remember, y'all?Woody: Cassette tape. [crosstalk] Jim: It was called Mind of a Psychopath. In that same year, he became Master P.Woody: Master P.Jim: Now, that same year, Corey's brother Kevin was killed in New Orleans. Master P, he kind of used that as motivation to get his record label off the ground and get his family out of the New Orleans projects where they were from, y'all, in the third world, the Calliope Projects. Very, very, tough, tough neighborhood. Woody: Let me tell you about this real quick. Let me interject. In the prison system in Angola or DCI, wherever you're at, all the convicts will refer to-- someone asking, I'll say, "Where are you from?" "The city." Well, the city means New Orleans. They automatically say, "What ward?" New Orleans is broken down into wards, most famously known for the 9th Ward. But each ward had its own project. Now, that's not a derogatory term. Back then, before Katrina, you literally couldn't go two blocks in any direction, even if you were on St. Charles in the richest neighborhood and you hit--Jim: Where Mike lives.Woody: Right, where Mike Agovino lives, and you hit projects. These are big high-rise buildings that the government used for low-income housing. They had their own police force even though they're part of NOPD, but they wouldn't even go in there for a shots fired call unless they had two or more units. Jim: That's right. Woody: It was rough. Jim: Yeah, it was rough. Obviously, oldest brother Percy, known as Master P, it was his goal to get his family out of the ghettos of New Orleans. It was kind of from this start that No Limit Records became a full-blown empire. Master P, in particular, became a beast in the way of business investments. I mean, just about everything this guy touched turned into gold. He was no idiot at all. No Limit invested in all kinds of successful ventures. They had an energy drink company, a sports management company, a publishing company, fast food companies. No Limit Enterprises became so successful, in fact, that in 1998 alone, the company grossed $110,000,000. Woody: That's a lot of duckies.Jim: That is a lot.Woody: Homegrown, right? Jim: Yep.Woody: Corey Miller was growing, y'all, at this time as a rapper, and his rap name was C-Murder. I know y'all have heard of that. Corey was the top of his game, and he had been the focal point of No Limited Records, and he was one of the wealthiest and most popular artists on the label until February 12th, 2002, when a Jefferson Parish grand jury indicted him for the murder of 16-year-old Steve Thomas in a New Orleans nightclub. In the early morning hours of January 12th, 2002, Deputy Brian Singleton received a call to respond to a shooting at the Platinum Club in Harvey, Louisiana, y'all, which is a suburban yours. When he arrived, Officer Singleton observed a large crowd of over 100 people screaming and running out the door of the club in a hectic state. As he made his way through the crowd, he observed over 100 to 150 people still inside. It was at this time he saw the victim, later identified as 16-year-old Steve Thomas, lying on his back, suffering a single gunshot wound to his chest. Deputy Singleton leaned down and tried to speak to the victim, but the victim was unresponsive, and the deputy radioed for medical assistance. Jim: Now, other deputies, they started to arrive, and Deputy Singleton then requested that all the doors be locked and all the officers start canvassing the club. They were going to get statements. Woody: Right. It's an active crime scene.Jim: Darnell Jordan, he worked security at the club that night, and he stated that a fight broke out between the pool table and the dance floor, and 15 to 20 people were beating down the victim. He said the victim was lying on his back and kind of trying to cover himself up. Turtling, as we call it. He was getting kicked and punched. That is when he kind of ran in and he tried to break up the fight.He said he grabbed C-Murder and told him, "Hey, man, chill out." C-Murder responded, "Aight." He then said he heard a gunshot. He also stated he never saw C-Murder kick or punch the victim, but he was about a foot away when C-Murder reached his hand into the pile of people, and the next thing he knew, he saw a flash at the end of it. In the 911 call, it's important to mention that Darnell never mentioned knowing who the shooter was. It's also important to mention that his story has changed many times regarding the identity of the shooter. Woody: Right. Which makes his testimony not worth a shit. But Denise Williams, who was also interviewed that night and said that the shooter was an individual named Derek Taylor. Detective Donald Clogher, who had been handed the lead in the case, stated that he could tell she was not being truthful, and later she admitted to having lied. She stated it was because she was fearful for her own safety, although she never identified C-Murder as the shooter. Corey Miller agreed to give a statement but was not willing to offer a recorded statement. He said he was, in fact, at the Platinum Club the night of the shooting, and he was talking to the DJ when heard the shot and was pushed out of the club at that point by an unknown individual.One of the key points, y'all, is that the detectives made note of during the questioning was that he asked about specific facts of investigation, inquired as to if witnesses were cooperating and was fishing to find out who they were. The detectives believed he was asking all these questions so that he could ascertain anyone who was cooperating with police to make threats upon them if they talk. They're talking about C-Murder, y'all.Jim: Yeah. And, Woody, you've interrogated countless amounts of individuals. Is that something that would raise a flag with you if they were asking--?Woody: Yeah. That's almost like people coming back to revisit the crime scene to watch or whatever and interjecting themselves in an investigation. The fact that he's coming back in and he's like, "Who's talking? Who's talking?"Jim: Yeah. "Y'all got any information on the case?"Woody: "Who's talking?" That's definitely the right red flag. Jim: Almost showing too much interest in what's going on. Kenneth Jordan was also a witness at the club that night. Now, he stated that the celebs, they get to skip the line and that although a metal wand is used for weapons checks, y'all have all seen that, the airport or whatever, they scan you up and down with that metal wand. He stated they don't really do that for celebrities, of which C-Murder was one. At this time, y'all, he was big. He was killing it everywhere, everything he touched.Woody: No pun intended.Jim: Yeah, [chuckles] no pun intended. He stated there was a rap contest that night, and the victim was in the contest. He said after the victim got off the stage, someone in a CP3 hoodie ran up and attacked the victim. And, y'all, let me tell you about CP3. CP3 stands for the Calliope Projects. It's basically CP and then 3 is for Third Ward, which is what hood C-Murder grew up in. Kenneth Jordan continued to say that the victim was fighting for his life when he got jumped by six or seven people and that C-Murder was not throwing punches and just watching the fight. He said once the fight was over, Corey Miller stood over the victim and shot him once in the chest.Now, it's important to note that this entire statement by Kenneth Jordan took place about a year after the murder. The case was brought up to Kenneth Jordan when he was in another case as a material witness involving the death of his baby. He said he did not initially speak to police because he feared for his life.Woody: Yeah, that's--Jim: A year later.Woody: So, on February 28th of 2002, C-Murder was indicted, y'all, for the murder of Steve Thomas. In September of 2003, he was convicted. However, in 2006, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction, and Corey Miller was granted a new trial based on the claim that prosecutors improperly withheld criminal background information on three of their witnesses. The defense, who was not made aware of the criminal records of the witnesses, stated they would have attacked the credibility of those witnesses if that information had been turned over. That's Brady, y'all. Everybody, you've got to turn it over. Jim: I do wonder though, Woody, you would have thought a defense attorney, when they see a witness list, they would just run a background check. Woody: But they don't have to, because under the Brady law, everything the prosecutor has in their file, they have to give it to them. So, the criminal records would have been in the file, but guess what? Somebody pulled them out. Jim: I got you. Technicality. Woody: That's why it was turned over. The state of Louisiana decides in 2009 to give it another shot. They set a trial date for August of 2009. This is where things get stupid crazy. Just three weeks from the trial date, a friend of C-Murder's named Juan Flowers comes out and says that he killed Steve Thomas. The questionable thing really was his confession, or with his confession was Juan Flowers was already serving a life sentence in jail by this point. It's not uncommon for lifers to try to admit to other killings to save their friends. Believe it or not, the other issue is that he changed and recanted that confession several times after that. So, the trial moves forward, and on August 10th, 2009, Corey Miller, C-Murder is convicted again and sentenced to life with no parole in Bloody Angola. Jim: Wow. Look, that confession by Juan Flowers, that's something that the attorneys for C-Murder and those that are fighting for his release, that's something they bring up. The issue with that is this guy really had nothing to lose. He was going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Woody: He was going to die in prison.Jim: He was a friend of his. Woody: If he can get C-Murder, this famous rapper off--[crosstalk] Jim: Famous friend.Woody: Famous friend. And get him off by saying, "Hey, you know what? I did it." Jim: Yeah, he can get favors in jail for the rest of his life. Woody: I mean, his family would have been taken care of and everything else. Jim: Yeah. He did come out after making that statement and basically recanted the whole thing and said, "I didn't kill him." So, C-Murder in Bloody Angola. Two weeks after he was sentenced, guess what? He gets an additional 10 years added to his sentence for a court case involving the attempted killing of two people in a Baton Rouge nightclub in 2001, y'all. And I remember this vividly. Now, Miller was in Club Raggs. That was a club in Baton Rouge, which was very, very popular.Woody: Hotspot. Jim: Hotspot. He got in an argument with security after refusing to allow them to search him. He yanks a gun, pulls the trigger on a bouncer, and the nightclub owner, and guess what? Gun jam.Woody: Gun jam.Jim: Thank God for that. He's probably glad that it jammed too, because he didn't get charged with murder right there. This was all captured on camera. One of the bullets actually ejected after the jam. That's how close it was to going off. So, you know that he actually pulled the trigger if one of the bullets ejected.Woody: It just didn't fire. Jim: That's right. It's really important to mention that he was free on bond with that case when the case with the nightclub incident involving the killing of Steve Thomas took place. That's huge. Woody: It's crazy.Jim: You know what? Stay out of the bars at that point. You're already in trouble, and you go out and this happens. Time marches on, and C-Murder, he's kind of working through this appeals process, which it pretty much gets exhausted in 2014. Then in 2018, Kenneth Jordan? You remember those two Jordans I told you about, which incidentally, they're not related. Kenneth Jordan, one of the prosecution's star witnesses, comes out and states he was pressured to finger Miller for the killing or face a 10-year sentence for another crime he was involved in. Then the very next month, the prosecution's other star witness, Darnell Jordan, recanted his statement, stating he was detained and locked in a hotel room by police who pressured him to testify against Miller. And, y'all, as I said, these guys are not related. They just share the same last name. Woody: It's crazy. I'm going to interject a little bit of a personal knowledge about C-Murder, Corey Miller, y'all. So, he's up in Angola. He's doing his time. He's famous. Like I said, he's doing his time. Whether he could have told who the actual shooter was, if he wasn't or whatever, he's living by the street code. He ain't saying dick. But he's doing his time, not letting his time do him. Now, my mother-in-law was the head of security for the visitation room at Bloody Angola. Guess who is very popular to be visited? Corey Miller. All right, I'm going to tell you, I talked to her. My wife talked about it and I listened last night because I remember her telling me about C-Murder back in the day when you brought the story up and said, "Call her and ask her anything that she could tell us about him." All right. What she said, he was very tall, maybe 6'6". Jim: Listed as 6'4".Woody: But this is her memory. She said he was skinny, not real muscular, but it showed that he worked out some prison muscle, but he was still skinny, but said he was very nice. He liked you. He was super polite to you. And he liked you, he let you know it. Master P, his brother, would fly in on a helicopter and land inside the wired Angola, and they took him to the ranch house. Now, we talked about the ranch house in past episodes. Ranch house is where Burl Cain would hold his meetings with dignitaries, and they would cook them the prison meals and all that. Well, guess what? Master P got to have his visitation in the ranch house. It's pretty cool. She said that they developed this personal relationship, and she called him C instead of Corey Miller. Sometime during his incarceration, he had a video that came out, and C actually asked my mother-in-law to go watch and say, "What do you think of the video?" Jim: Wow. Woody: She told him about what she thought of it. She said there also was another famous short rapper in there, she couldn't remember his name, that couldn't stand C-Murder. Jim: Come on. Woody: Yeah, so there was a beef between them. They couldn't have visitation at the same time, everything else. They probably would have killed each other. Jim: Wow. Woody: So, she was made aware of that. He told her directly. He said, "You know what? I believe I have more purpose in this life." She said he would stop in the visitation room while other people were there in there. It's a massive room, y'all, with all these tables and some vending machines, and they get screened. Family members come in, and people would come up to him while he's in his visits, say, "Hey, will you give me your autograph?" And he'd do it. Said he was a cool, nice guy. Said he took good care of his girlfriend. His girlfriend came every other weekend to visit. She doted on him. Also, the son of the girlfriend thought of C as his daddy. And he had a big family, and they would come see him almost all the time, every chance they could. The family also went to every one of his court dates during this appeal process we're talking about. But check this out, C-Murder, all hardcore, right? Was a mama's boy. Jim: Hmm.Woody: Absolutely doted on this mama. She said his mama was a big woman, big boned, and she always wore a T-shirt that said "Free C-Murder" when she came to visit. Jim: Wow. Woody: Master P ended up buying their mama house on Tchoupitoulas. She got to hang out with him and talk. You know what she said? If you didn't know he was in prison for murder, she said, "Hell, we were friends. He could have spent the night in my house." Jim: Wow. You've got some scoop there, Woody Overton. Look, that's inside info. Woody: That's the Bloody Angola scoop.Jim: You can't get nowhere--[crosstalk] Woody: Bloody Angola scoop. So, that's a personal account. Of course, she's now long since been retired, probably five or six years. Jim: Very interesting. A helicopter, huh? Woody: Helicopter flying inside the wire and getting private visitation at the ranch or whatever. Jim: That's pretty cool. Woody: All right, so, y'all, he was popular. In 2020, a series of tweets were placed by a very well-known celebrity and influencer, Kim Kardashian. Everybody knows about Kim. She joined the fight to free C-Murder after hearing all the inconsistencies in his case. In a series of Twitter posts, she stated she is teaming up with R&B singer Monica, C-Murder's ex-girlfriend, in the fight to get the 49-year-old rapper's murder conviction overturned. "My heart goes out to the family of Steve Thomas. I can only imagine how hard this is. My intention is to never open up this painful wound, but to help find the truth behind this tragedy. True justice for the young man requires that the person who actually killed him be held responsible and that Corey Miller be returned home to his kids." Y'all, that was Kim Kardashian's statement. Jim: That's right. With no further ado, we'd like to welcome our guest, Kim Kardashian, to this sh-- No, we-- [crosstalk] Woody: Kim, how are you doing?[laughter] Jim: But, Kim, if you want to come on--Woody: Kim, didn't you just graduate from law school? I think she did. Jim: [laughs] I think you're right. She's not really here, y'all. Woody: Yes, she is.Jim: If she'd like to come on, come on.Woody: You can just bump up the ratings. Kim, come on down. Jim: That's it. Yeah. A lot of people out there advocating for C-Murder and think that he, for lack of a better term, got screwed on his conviction. As recently as March 3rd, y'all of this year, so just occurring-Woody: Last month. Jim: -last month, C-Murder is making headlines, and his manager released a statement related to a recent hunger strike he's undergoing to protest conditions at Elayn Hunt, where he was transferred in 2018 from Angola. In 2018, commonly-- well, I don't know how common it is, but prisoners will get transferred to different prisons after being at Angola so long. [crosstalk] Woody: It could be some security reasons also. Like that little rapper my mother-in-law was talking about, it could be he used his influence and maybe Master P can't afford a helicopter anymore. And Elayn Hunt is a hell of a lot closer to New Orleans than Angola is, being right outside of Baton Rouge, y'all, in St. Gabriel. It's pretty crazy.Jim: In these hunger strikes that they do, this is common. One of the most powerful ways that convicts have to protest, especially conditions in prison, is through starving themselves. And it gets attention. Woody: Not Burl Cain's, let me tell you that.Jim: Not Burl Cain, yeah.Woody: Burl Cain is on tape. One inmate or convict came up and said, "Warden, I need to talk to you." Well, Burl Cain knows his business. He told him, the inmate, the convict, said, "Aren't you on hunger strike?" He said, "Yes, sir, I am." Burl said, "Well, boy, I'm not goi--" Not boy. Jim: [chuckles] Woody: He said, "Sir, I'm not going to talk to you while you're on hunger strike. You go ahead and get you a good meal and I'll come back and talk to you." Jim: There you go. So, he didn't put up. But we're going to read this statement from his manager regarding that. It says, "On behalf of the Miller Family in an ongoing campaign to have justice served, Lisa Jackson, publicist, and Steve Johnson, manager for Corey Miller/C-Murder, are requesting the release of information to the public about Corey and his current situation at Elayn Hunt Correctional Center. We are asking Kim Kardashian, as the prison reform legal team representing Mr. Miller, to help bring immediate public awareness to Corey's situation, wrongful conviction from the state of Louisiana, the state of Louisiana's suppression of evidence, inhumane treatment conditions at the prison, and it is imperative now more than ever that a quick strategy move is made as his health has significantly declined due to the prison system's inhumane conditions. Fortunately, and unfortunately, we have a disturbing visual and written information about Mr. Miller's situation." He goes on to say, "Mr. Miller recently passed out. He received no follow-up medical care in response. And because Mr. Miller asked for and did not receive an investigation in the circumstances of his passing out, he was placed in solitary confinement as retaliation. Corey continues to suffer from chronic dental issues that have led to significant weight loss and have been denied much needed thyroid medication because the state of Louisiana says they cannot obtain the necessary medications. Because conditions at Elayn Hunt have not improved, Mr. Miller is engaging in a hunger strike that began on February 23rd to bring awareness to his and all his inmates' neglect and abuse at the hands of the penal system. The neglect of inmates in the penal system has been well documented by Mr. Miller and others." So, basically, his manager, he's basically saying Corey Miller ain't doing so well right now. Woody: Yeah, well, you know what? Listen, I'm going to call bullshit--[crosstalk] Jim: I knew you would. [chuckles] Woody: You can only go like five days without eating or less time without water. I'm pretty sure C-Murder has gotten couple of Ramen noodles passed through his door or whatever. The whole medication thing and all that, if that's true, they better believe they're going to get that shit straight. But one of the reasons they may have moved though to Elayn Hunt is they do have a, believe it or not, a better medical staff. I can't say better, but they have more access to the local hospitals and everything else. So maybe he's needing to see specialists? I don't know.But the problem with this, y'all, is Steve Thomas is dead. From what I understand, this garnered a lot more national attention. What was the show? I like that show. They go in and investigate cases and see if there's been an injustice in it. He was on this show. And, Jim, you sent it to me. Actually, he was on it by phone interview but his family, his ex-wife and his daughter brought this cracker jack investigative team in, one that was a defense attorney, the other one was a career criminal investigator like me, and they investigated the case. Jim: Yeah. And it was called Reasonable Doubt. Woody: Reasonable Doubt. That's it. I think it's like Season 2, Episode 3 if you want to check it out. They worked it. And C-Murder basically said on the phone, basically he knew did it, but he ain't saying. Jim: Yeah. The interesting thing about this show was they brought up several key points of evidence. One was the fact that somebody had confessed to it. We already told y'all the story there. The guy just is not believable. He keeps changing his story. In addition to that, they brought up a chain. There was a chain that-Woody: That Steve Thomas was wearing. Jim: -Steve Thomas was wearing that when he got killed. Somebody yanked that chain off him.Woody: Yeah, during that fight with the beat down. Jim: The DNA did not match C-Murder's DNA. Woody: It really didn't match anybody.Jim: Correct. Woody: He couldn't be excluded or whatever, but it doesn't matter, y'all. DNA is not like you think it is. Just every time you touch something for a second, doesn't mean your DNA is going to be on it. They proved it by an expert that if somebody just grabbed and yanked it off, chances of their DNA being on there are very slim. Jim: Yeah. They basically dispelled most of the cases, I guess, for his release. There just wasn't anything there. In that interview, as Woody said, where C-Murder was actually on the phone, I guess you could say he alluded to the fact that he kind of knew who did it, but he has a code that he lives by.Woody: One of the witnesses said that it was one of C-Murder's crew that actually pulled the trigger. They exited the club and when they asked them where the weapon is, and they said they threw it in the Mississippi over a bridge coming back in New Orleans because Harvey is across the bridge. Jim: Yeah, and the problem with that was C-Murder was with them and he becomes a what? Woody: Accessory. Jim: Yeah.Woody: Same thing. He would have got-- Principal 2-- Louisiana Vice Statute 1427 principal 2, basically accessory and he'd have gotten the same charge. But they said he's standing up and doing his time. It is what it is. Jim: It is what it is. Woody: I don't know how you get it, but he's no longer in Bloody Angola. But he did some time. Jim: Yeah, and as of this recording, he's still serving the rest of his life in prison for this. Look, man, if you didn't do it, you're going to have to say who did or you're going to ride that sentence out till you die.Woody: That's it. Jim: That's just the bottom line. We wanted to bring this episode to you. We had a lot of people ask us too. There were a lot of questions with regard to C-Murder. He's a very popular part of society, even still 21 years after this has taken place. Woody: Well, people don't even know that he was a veteran. Jim: Yeah, he was. That's right.Woody: A military veteran. The same war that I was veteran of, the first Gulf War. You'd think him and Master P, they display themselves as the gangster life, whatever. Master P got a college education. Jim: Let me tell you, that is a persona and that guy is a businessperson. You cannot reach that level of success in life without being very smart and have a very high business acumen. That's the bottom line. Woody: I think when you start believing your own height, and certainly you're the most popular person at nightclub held about 400 or 500 people, y'all, Platinum did or Platinum, whatever they call it. Supposedly, Steve Thomas was on stage rapping. It was like a rap battle. He got off the stage and maybe C-Murder's crew didn't like it and they gave him the beatdown. Jim: Well, there was even a rumor out there saying that in that contest, he out-rapped everybody else and a lot of people were saying he was better than C-Murder, and that basically he was killed because of that. And C-Murder responded to that in that TV interview and said, "Man, I have way too much to lose. I'm not going to kill a guy because everybody thought he was better than me that night or whatever." I believe that. I don't think that's why.Woody: A lot of people said that Steve Thomas was actually C-Murder's biggest fan. Yeah. Jim: Yeah. His own family. His mom and dad said he had posters of Master P. Woody: He's a huge C-Murder fan. Jim: Yeah. Woody: He ended up dying, [unintelligible 00:34:08] for them. You know what? The silent code-- A lot of times I say the streets talk, that's what they say. The streets talk, but a lot of times, they don't. In this case, he wants to die in prison for that. Now, I think it's too late. All these people recanting stories and all that, it's just to validate you as a witness on the appeals process. My prediction is like Rocky 3. They ask Mr. T, "What's your prediction?" "Prediction is pain." My prediction is C-Murder is going to die in the custody of the Department of Corrections. Jim: Yeah. Just a tragic waste to what-- He could have kept on going and just rocking it in the rap world. We say it all the time, I say this a lot, and that is you're one decision away from ruining the rest of your life. Woody: One split second, man. [crosstalk] Jim: All it takes. Woody: That's it. Jim: Yeah. And he's a prime example of that, sadly.Woody: Lifestyle called him. Y'all, I want to thank our Patreon members. You are absolutely the best. Jim: Oh, they are. Couldn't do this without them.Woody: Curious every single month. Our Bloody Angola is rocketing up the charts. This past week, it jumped 20 something. Jim: 22 spots. Woody: 22 spots. I predict next week after Real Life Real Crime Dateline--Jim: 22 more spots. Why don't you put it in negative too? [crosstalk] [laughs] Woody: We're going to be in negative too. I predict we're going to number one, y'all, but Patreon members, we couldn't do without you. If you want to become a patron, you can go to patreon.com and type in Bloody Angola. It has all the different tiers. Jim: We do transcripts on there, Woody, for our upper tiers. But even the very first tier, you're going to get commercial-free early episodes every week. We release extra and bonus episodes as you go up those tiers. Woody: [crosstalk] -episodes. Jim: Yeah, we got several locked up that nobody's ever heard on the regular Bloody Angola series. Woody: And never will. They're for our Patreon members. You know what? It takes money. This is a business and takes money. And we love doing it. We're always going to do it. Y'all have been so great to us. If you would, make sure you subscribe and like us, and if you get a chance, go, leave us a review.Jim: Very important. Those have kind of slowed down as of late. So, please. Woody: Leave us a review. We love and appreciate each and every one of you.Jim: And look, we got a Facebook page. We don't want to forget to mention that. Go to the Facebook, give it a follow. It's been building. I love seeing those analytics on Facebook grow and grow. That's just what it's been doing. But nobody will know if you don't tell a friend. Woody: Also, every week now, we're going to list every single episode of Bloody Angola in the Real Life Real Crime community app. Also, the advertisement, whatever the episode is going to be, if you're scrolling through that app, you'll be able to see it there also. Jim: Yeah. Go to Real Life Real Crime, download the app and you'll have access to those episodes. Last thing we want to mention. This is Thursday, so tomorrow, 8 o'clock Central, 9:00 Pacific. Real Life Real Crime, two-hour special, Who murdered Courtney Coco? Dateline, NBC. 16 million viewers.Woody: 135 million in 30 days. Jim: Wow. Woody: Between their podcast and everything else. And y'all, horrible story. We were very blessed to have Lifers and fans, and most of them are fans of Bloody Angola also, y'all helped solve that case. Go tune into it. Share it. It's a beautifully tragic story.Jim: It really is. It'll give you the amazing story of this man across from me and what he did and went through to really see that justice was done for Courtney, which is amazing.Woody: I'm going to do a little spoiler alert, if I could say it, spoiler alert. One day we can do an episode of Bloody Angola at the conclusion of a Dateline story because somebody's in Bloody Angola. Jim: Yeah, that's right. Tune in, please. 9 o'clock Pacific, 8 o'clock Central on NBC on Friday. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Unison: Peace. Jim: [laughs] [Bloody Angola theme playing]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Second Chances Part 2 | A Juvenile Lifers Story

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 1970 64:34

Part 2 of this amazing story is here!In June 2016, Andrew Hundley became the FIRST juvenile lifer in Louisiana to be paroled following the U.S. Supreme Court's Miller and Montgomery decisions that prohibited the mandatory sentencing of children to life without parole. It was clear that he was not the same 15-year-old who went to prison in 1997 to the parole board who approved his release.Since his release from Angola, Andrew has earned a Masters degree in Criminology, is founder of the Louisiana Parole Project and is known in all circles of justice as the real life Andy Dufrane.Whatever side of this issue you sit, you will not want to miss this episode.In this episode Woody and Jim sit down with him for an in depth interview you are not going to believe on Bloody Angola Podcast.#BloodyAngolaPodcast #LouisianaParoleProject #AndrewHundleyLouisiana Parole Project website:https://www.paroleproject.org/Check out P2P Podcast (Penitentiaries to Penthouses) Here:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-p2p-podcast-penitentiaries-2-penthouses/id1646270646?i=1000586120763SECOND CHANCES PART 2 TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Bloody- Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: And we're back for Part 2, Woody Overton.Woody: Part 2, Second Chances with our main man.Jim: Andrew Hundley. How are you?Andrew: I'm well.Jim: I feel like we just talked to you. [laughs]Andrew: Thanks for having me back.Woody: Yeah, [crosstalk] right. Andrew, I just want to say that it's an amazing story, y'all. You've got to go listen to Part 1. I don't think we've maybe done one or two series on Bloody Angola that-- actually series, one or two episodes that went past episode 1.Jim: The only one that we did was Archie Williams.Woody: No. Brent Miller.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, two, you'll be the third. Thank you for being here, I really appreciate it. Y'all go back and listen to the first one if you haven't.Jim: Yes, please do.Woody: When we left off last, you were at state police barracks out at JESTC, and you gotto finish telling me how you got swung.Andrew: Yeah, I had unauthorized female visitor, to keep it PG. [laughter]Andrew: I had a female friend who visited me at the office I worked at one evening. I knew that wasn't supposed to happen. It happened. And I understand that you keep visitors off of the premises because you never know who's going to be coming out there, what they're going to be bringing out there.Jim: I ain't hating on it. I don't blame you. [laughs]Woody: [crosstalk]Andrew: [crosstalk] -I'm not the first guy to get in trouble and probably not going to be thelast guy that got into that kind of trouble. Jim: Some things are just worth it. [laughs]Woody: Everybody you see today and the rest of your life got there because two people had sex.[laughter]Andrew: But it was against the rules. They actually didn't move me immediately because my job that I had--Woody: They didn't want to release you.Andrew: I had to finish some job responsibilities. But they said, "Hey, you're going to have togo." I said, "I want to go to Angola."Jim: And wow. Before you say anything else, that's just like-- Woody: You're one of the only people ever said that--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, you might be the only one to utter that sentence.Andrew: Well, and I recognize and I had done enough time and met enough people who had been to Angola and who, in prison speak, were successful at Angola. They had done well. And I wanted to be a trustee. At state police barracks, I was a trustee but the only place as a lifer going if we say back into DOC, I couldn't go to DCI or Wade or Hunt or any of these other prisons [crosstalk] have to go to Angola.Jim: What year was this?Andrew: Oh, that was in 2012, 2013. Jim: So, it was post Burl Cain? Andrew: No, Burl was still there. Woody: Burl was still there.Jim: Okay.Andrew: When I first get there, I actually go to Bass. For my first couple of months, I was a cell block orderly at Bass, paying my penance. As soon as I got there, they told me, "Look, keep your nose clean, out of sight, out of mind for a couple of months, and we've got a job for you." They told me this as soon as I got there.Woody: That's really cool.Jim: Your reputation preceded you some way probably.Woody: Another unique thing about what you're saying is, I don't think people understand-- I would say you might have a better number on than me. Most people at Angola are nevergetting out, like 80% or something like that. But to go in and have to do 10 years to make trustee without a low court or high court writeup, holy shit, bro, that's almost impossible. So basically, they're telling you, "Keep your nose clean, lay low for a couple of months and you shake it out, we got a job for you," basically, you almost were like getting credit for time served already.Andrew: Right. They gave me credit. Look, I had a unique experience. Woody: Meaning, credit under the trustee program.Andrew: I used to tell people I did my time like Benjamin Button. [laughter]Jim: In reverse.Andrew: Yeah, I did my time in reverse. Most people start at Angola and they're either going to die there or there are some old timers who after they've been there for a few decades, they'll allow a transfer to a prison closer to their home if they request it, if they have space. For me, I ended at Angola and did my last few years there.Woody: I got to interrupt because I'm visual. You ask to go to Angola, and had you ever been to Angola before?Andrew: I'd been only for boxing matches. I had been there for those kind of trips.Woody: So, you're taking that ride up, or they giving you the ride up and you hit the gates and you go inside the wire the first time. Do you have any different impression? What was your impression?Andrew: I was thinking, "Oh, man, I hope I made the right decision." [laughter]Woody: Right, because this is like the Harvard of convicts.Andrew: Yeah, because I'm starting to second guess because it's like, well, if I would have gone back to the smaller prison, I was big fish in a small pond. And now, I was telling myself, "You're just another lifer here. You're going to be lost in the shuffle." But thankfully, I wasn't lost in the shuffle. Thankfully, my reputation did-- I did have a good reputation.Woody: I'm sure somebody called and gave them a heads-up and say that, "You better get your hands on this dude because he's the bomb."Andrew: I got there. You go on this review board as soon as you get there, and it's medical, mental health, security, classification, and they're trying to figure out where they're going to send you. A lot of guys will start off in a cell block, or some guys will go into medical facilities. Some guys will be under mental health observation. And never having lived at Angola but new Camp J is not the place to be.Woody: Right.Jim: Don't send me to Camp J.Andrew: The major who was on the review board is like, "Hey, I got a call about you. Let me see what they want--" He's telling pretty much everyone on the review board like, "Someone's about to make a decision where this guy's going to go. We're not going to make the decision." He gets off the phone and says, "We're sending him to Bass." And I was like, "Okay. Where is that?" He's like, "You're going to Camp J." And I'm like, "Oh, my God. I thought I'm coming here to be a trustee."Jim: You're sending me to lockdown.Andrew: And I'm going to lockdown because you go to J when guys on death row screw up. They get sent to J, to the cell blocks at J because people would rather be in their cell on death row-Woody: Absolutely.Andrew: -than be at J because J is wild. Now look, today J has been shut down for a fewyears because of talk about-- Jim: [crosstalk] -reason for that.Andrew: Look, Camp J is four cell blocks and one dorm. They have a few guys in a dorm that are cooking for the guys there. They're taking care of the place, taking care of the yard. You hear J, you assume the cell block. Just having worked in the cell blocks, these are guys with significant mental health issues.Woody: Most of them, yeah.Andrew: They're throwing feces on each other. They're throwing stuff on the guards. They're guys who've been back there so long and there's this mentality in prison, bar fighting. And you make enemies in a cell and you throw stuff on so many people. You've seen this guy, he comes out on the tier for his shower. Y'all stay up all night cursing at each other because that's just how time is done. And then, you get into it with so many people, you're back there a couple of years and they say, "Okay, it's your time to come out." Like, "Oh, no, I can't go into population because I've threw crap on so many people."What these guys don't realize is, look, all y'all have thrown crap on each other. Y'all cursed each other out, talked about threatened to kill each other. You get out, chances are, "All right, man. We're in population now, we're going to put that stuff behind us." But so many of those guys, they've developed these enemies, and then they just dig their hole deeper and deeper. There are guys who've been back there decades and refuse to come out of their cells.Jim: Damn.Woody: The listeners know, like you're talking about, to get sent to Camp J, not the dormitory, but to get housing and cell on Camp J, you had to break a rule in prison. Not just regular fist fighting. It's fighting with weapons or attacking an officer or raping someone or whatever it may be, it's a serious infraction. You don't get classified and sent to Camp J immediately, most people. You get sent to wherever, and then if you're so bad that you can't follow the major rules inside-- those rule infractions, they could be a street charge too. But if you're so bad that you can't live in the general population with the worst of the worst, or what's considered to be the worst of the worst in America, you got to send to Camp J. It's a huge mental issue. I agree with you, like 90% of that shit is mental.Andrew: They call it the Behavioral Management Unit.Woody: Yeah, right.Jim: [chuckles] That's one way to put it.Woody: You lock them up and throw away the key.Andrew: The reason that they had to shut it down was it's an old cell block, and they couldn't repair the cells. Guys would open up cells, jump on guards.Jim: Oh, my God.Andrew: [crosstalk] So, whenever they sent me, they said Bass, which is the name of the dormitory, the general population dorm for the guys that work and serve. Luckily, it was like, "No, we're sending you back here," they did me a favor because it's like, hey, they recognize, "This is a guy that's done a lot of time. We have something in mind for you. So, we're going to put you on timeout."Woody: And show you what the worst could be if you want to fuck up. Jim: Yeah.Andrew: They told me, "Give us a couple of months." Those couple of months, it's like no one else talks to me after that. I remember day 30, day 45, I'm thinking to myself, "These people told me-- they've forgotten all about me." I remember seeing the assistant warden over the camp after I'd been there about two months, said, "Hey, I don't know if you remember me," he's like, "Yeah, I remember you." "You haven't looked at me. You haven't acknowledged me. Just want to make sure." He said, "Have you hit your two months yet?" "I'll hit my two months at the end of this week." He said, "Okay, we'll see what happens." Two days after I hit my two months there, they came to me and said, "Hey, we're moving you to Camp F, and you're going to be working out on the range crew. We're going to make you the clerk on the range crew."Jim: That's awesome.Andrew: What it ended up being, obviously Camp F is the old timer camp, class A trustee. Iwas in my 30s, I was the youngest guy at Camp F. [laughter]Andrew: By like 20 years.Woody: Yeah.Andrew: The youngest guy. There may have been guys that weren't quite that much older than me. But I go back there, and I have this job and I didn't realize how great of a job they were giving me. 18,000 acres, the thing that's awesome about the range crew is you have trustees that get to leave whatever camp, leave the main prison, get outside the fence, be on the property. But the thing that's awesome about the range crew is cattle there-- on just one little spot of the prison, there's cattle from the front to the back of the prison. So, when you're on the range crew, you have access to the entire prison. When I say the entire prison, I mean the property.Jim: So, you were a cowboy?Andrew: I was a cowboy. I wasn't born a cowboy. Jim: [laughs]Andrew: I learned how to ride a horse. Learned how to take care of cattle. The cows at Angola are 2000 head of cattle, not counting the bulls and not counting, given time of the year, when mamas are dropping calves. There are actually a lot more cattle there but every cow is on state property control. They're branded, they're tagged.Woody: Oh, my God. I remember-- [crosstalk]Andrew: When John Kennedy was State Treasurer, he used to give DOC hell, "How the heck do you lose a cow?" I was a guy that if I read that in the paper, I would think the same thing, "Well, how the heck do you lose a cow?" And I learned on 18,000 acres, it's really easy to lose a cow because if a cow goes in a drainage canal and dies--Woody: Or a gator gets--[crosstalk]Andrew: You're hoping that the buzzards are going to tell you where they are. So, part of my job was to keep up with the cattle that were on state property control and to do continuing inventories, order the meds, order the vaccines, along with just general clerical responsibilities around the range.Woody: You have a brain that I don't because my entire state career every fucking year when I had to fill out these property forms and serial numbers and I hated that shit. I'd rather be kicked in the nuts than have to fill out one of those. You were doing it every day all across the whole scale.Andrew: And then, another job responsibility I had once I got the job was assisting with the management of the rodeo as it relates to the rides. In my job, I was responsible for the fall and spring rodeos, to get the riders signed up and to assign the rides. There are people who-- the stock contractor comes in. There's, obviously, Alan Barton and his crew are managing what's going on inside the arena. There are acts coming in. Security is getting the public in. There's the hobby craft. There's the concessions.But the guys that are participating, someone has to organize them, someone has to decide who's getting what ride. It's sort of interesting because that's really a high-pressure thing because everyone wants a ride and everyone wants to be on this shoot. My responsibility was being the guy that fairly distributed rides for people who signed up. In the middle of the rodeo, you'll have guys who are on a horse and then they hurt themselves, but later in the day they were supposed to be on the poker table. So, I have to keep track of that and replace them in real time.Jim: Wow. Did you have anybody helping you?Andrew: I had people that would help me, but I'm the kind of guy that- Woody: Nobody is going to do it--[crosstalk]Andrew: -nobody's going to do it as good as you.Jim: [laughs][crosstalk]Jim: Struggle with delegation. [laughs]Woody: You were the CEO of everything that state workers--Jim: Well, if you do it, it's done right. [laughs] Or if it's wrong, it's your fault. And that's important.Andrew: But I can remember people ask me often about what I'm missing. I think there'll come a point in my career where I'll move out in the country, get a piece of property and have cow because there are days when you work around cattle, you just get this gunk in your nose at the end of the day, especially when we're pushing cows, got them in a catch pen, working them, and you just get all this muck in your sinuses, I miss that. I had to be in prison to really feel this sense of purpose and enjoying-- there were times I forget I was in prison. I forget I have my-- [crosstalk]Jim: Wow. It's almost like [crosstalk] you're so involved.Andrew: -sentence because I was in nature. I was working around these animals, got run [unintelligible [00:19:15] people. I think people have this idea that brahma bulls, the meanest thing that you could come across and know a mama cow that you're pulling the baby from will run your ass over. Well, I've been run over quite a few times and been kicked by cows. So, it was a great experience for me.The other thing I should say about my experience at Angola that was totally different from everywhere else I had been. Obviously, I was an outlier everywhere else I was having a life sentence. I would see people come and go. There were a handful of lifers at Wade, a handful of lifers at DCI. But when you get to Angola, everyone has life or everyone has 50, 100 years. They're not going to do that sentence. You every once in a while got a guy that somehow ended up at Angola that's going to be going home, but that's the outlier.And I got to meet so many older guys who had been there for decades. Some of the best people I ever met with in my life, I met in prison, and they were in prison for murder. I know that the general public can't get that, or they think I must be twisted to see that. But you see who a person becomes. I'm not meeting people in their worst moment. I'm meeting people years later after they've developed, they've taken responsibility for whatever brought them to prison and they've changed their lives. So, I think that had a big impact. Frankly, seeing a lot of death at Angola, going to funerals at Angola and seeing people buried and their headstone being on the penitentiary property, it's life changing.Woody: We did an episode on the Lookout Point and the call for making-- and all that stuff, that Burl really stepped up the game on.Jim: That's exactly right.Woody: [crosstalk] -we missed an episode. My mama sent me the article afterwards. Governor Edwards, when he passed, they had them make his coffin and he was buried. But then, his wife or some family member had him dug up and cremated. But so, we did Billy Cannon's. [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. We definitely talked about that. It'd be a good point to bring up Burl Cain brought two very, very important things to Angola, in my opinion. He brought religion and he brought education at a level no prison had ever seen in the country. Everybody makes mistakes, Burl became very powerful, and with that, there became maybe some problems. But probably the most well-known warden in the history of the country, I would say. Would you agree? Did you ever have any dealings with him?Andrew: Oh, certainly. My favorite story about Burl, and he would do this to a lot of people, you always knew Burl was the boss and Burl had the vision. If you were going to work for Burl, you were going to carry things out the way Burl wanted it done. Burl had a whiteboard in the ranch house where he would often hold court around lunch. If there was an assistant warden, staff member who had to see Burl, Burl had a convict he wanted to come see him, you'd get called up to the ranch house and he had a whiteboard. Burl used to draw a circle on the whiteboard and then put a dot in the middle of it. He'd hand you the marker and say, "That's where I am. I'm the dot. Show me where you are. Are you in the circle? Are you outside the circle?"Woody: Wow.Jim: [chuckles] That's pretty awesome.Andrew: And he would tell you, "Draw it. I want to see. Where are you?" If you'd put that dot inside the circle next to him, "So, well, let me know if you're with me, because if you're not with me, we'll draw your dot outside of the circle." I think that's a perfect encapsulation of who he is. He had a vision. He knew how he wanted to do it. Obviously, it's hard to stay in one place. He was at Angola over 20 years. That's unheard of. No one will ever be warden of the penitentiary--Woody: I know this off the record that numerous times, and actually tapped Jimmy Le Blanc to be head of the Department of Corrections, he turned it down. He believed in so much in what he was doing in Angola. When he was warden at DCI, when I started-- I trained at Angola, I think it was Camp F is where the--Jim: Yes.Woody: Yes, I slept in a dormitory there and everything, but my mom was raised on the [unintelligible [00:24:08]. So, we say Bloody Angola, the Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. That's more of a catch-all. Certainly, it's not a nice place to be, but it's certainly not to 19--[crosstalk]Jim: '65, '64.Woody: -when they had [crosstalk] yards and shit like that. I forget the name of certificationprogram, it's a national thing run by the government. Andrew: HOST?Woody: Yeah, that certifies prison. You got to really-- Andrew: Oh, ACA.Woody: American Correctional Accreditation, something like that. But Angola was nowhere near that when Burl got there, and he did all that too.Jim: Right. Leader of men, there's no doubt about it. Now, I believe the head of the Mississippi Department of Corrections.Andrew: Correct.Woody: Most listeners don't know the Montgomery case comes out, how did you learn about it? How did you hear about it? And what happens next?Andrew: US Supreme Court actually has made a series of decisions that affected how we sentenced juveniles. I mean, it's not that long ago the first decision where they looked at adolescent brain science was Roper, and it was new science. It's sort of what everyone who was a kid or had kids, knew kids or immature kids are impulsive. And the Roper decision, that's when they said, "You can't execute a juvenile anymore." I mean, that's just in the last couple of decades that we haven't been able to execute-- The Supreme Court said, "Stop executing juveniles."Woody: I was a police officer when that came out.Andrew: And they said, "Hey, kids are different from adults, and we have to treat them different than adults." Eventually, there was the Miller decision. And all these decisions, we're in prison, we're watching the news, we're reading the newspaper, we're keeping up with it. The guys who are going down the rabbit hole, staying in the law library are telling everyone what's happening. So, we're just watching it. The Miller decision came out in 2012, and that decision said that you can't give a juvenile a mandatory life without parole sentence. Well, if you remember in the first episode, I said when my judge sentenced me, there was only one sentence.Woody: Mandatory without.Andrew: If my judge would have had an option and gave me life anyway, the Supreme Court decision wouldn't have affected me because the Supreme Court didn't say you can't give a juvenile a life without parole sentence. It said it couldn't be mandatory. The judge has to have leeway. But Louisiana and some other Southern states--Woody: They still followed it.Andrew: We're fighting it, the retroactivity, because they said, "Okay, well, this only affects new cases. It can't affect all these old cases." I actually went back to Acadia Parish in 2013 after Miller. I was fortunate my family could afford to hire an attorney for me. The judge who was there for my trial was still on the bench.Jim: Oh, wow.Andrew: He agreed for me to come back in. He said, "Now, I have an opportunity to give you a different sentence. I'm going to sentence you to life with parole, and I'm going to let the Department of Corrections figure out what that means," because there wasn't a law in the book that said what does-- life is still life in Louisiana, whether you're a juvenile or not. The parole board wouldn't schedule a parole hearing for me, obviously, because there's nothing that says that.Woody: To set the precedent.Andrew: Yeah. We're hearing from all of our attorneys that this isn't going to affect old cases. So, in January of 2016, the US Supreme Court ruled in a case called Henry Montgomery, Baton Rouge case. A black guy, he was 17 years old, when he shot an East Baton Rouge sheriff's deputy. Not to argue that case, Henry, he shot someone who happened to be a sheriff's officer. He didn't know it was a sheriff's officer, but still, he shot a sheriff's deputy, and he was held accountable and was initially given the death penalty, ended up with a life sentence. His case made it to the Supreme Court. I remember we initially thought, "Man, that's such a bad case to make it to the Supreme Court," because everyone in prison knows you don't--Jim: When it involves a police officer--Andrew: You don't commit a crime against a police officer because you're not going to getany mercy.Woody: So the listeners know, when they submit to Supreme Court, Supreme Court has a right to turn down the hearing of the case. They don't have to hear it.Andrew: Right. So, they agreed to hear it. In January of 2016, they reviewed it favorably. Henry Montgomery, what his attorneys were arguing was that Miller's retroactive, and it affects Henry and people who've already been in prison, not just new cases. The Supreme Court agreed, and it put me at the front of the line.Jim: When he says the front, the very front.Andrew: The very front. It's not because I obviously wasn't the person who served the most time. I wasn't the person who had the most certificates. I was at the front of the line because most other guys in my position, they couldn't afford to hire attorneys, and other courts didn't want to fool with it. There weren't any local judges that were looking to start resentencing people. Everyone's like, "Oh, let's wait and see what the Supreme Court does." Well, my judge looked for the-- was happy to hear when my attorney went and said, "We were going to file for a hearing for a change in sentencing." He says, "Let's set a date."Woody: I'm sure also, I know what he told you originally, but I guarantee that the judge looked at-- that you did your time, you didn't let your time do you. You totally turned your life around, or you've been on a straight and narrow other than the one time at JESTC. [chuckles]Andrew: That's true. He put all that stuff into the record, and that obviously helped me. So, when the Montgomery decision came down, my attorney petitioned the parole board and said, "You owe him a parole hearing." At that point, the state of Louisiana had not issued-- the legislature hadn't changed any laws. So, he was arguing because of what the Supreme Court said, "Because his district court already sentenced him, you have to give him a parole hearing. You can't hold the legislature's inaction against him." The parole board agreed and actually got an opinion from the attorney general's office that said I was parole eligible.I go before the parole board in June of 2016, I'll be honest with you, even though I knew I was rehabilitated, knew if I get out, I'm going to do well, I still know I committed a horrible crime. I was in my 30s. I was 34. I'm telling myself, "I'm going to be denied," and I'm preparing my family, I'm going to be denied. This is the sort of a process and every couple of years I'll be able to reapply. And in 10, 15 years, they're going to get tired of telling me no, and I'm going to come home one day. And I'm going to tell y'all, my biggest fear, I didn't say this in the first episode. My biggest fear while I was incarcerated wasn't about someone hurting me, wasn't about being raped or being stabbed or even not getting out of prison. That wasn't my biggest fear. My biggest fear and what would keep me up at night was the fear that my parents would die while I was incarcerated.Woody: Yeah, I get it.Andrew: Because I've seen men whose parents died. Mom's the last person with you. Andwhen mom goes, everyone else goes.Jim: And they had your back the whole time you were in prison.Andrew: They didn't make excuses for me, but they showed me love. They visited me.Woody: Shoutout to your folks, man.Andrew: They answered my phone calls, and my mom and dad just sustained me. I went to prison as a 15-year-old, and even although my body matured, there was part of my-- I never went off to college. I never got that first job.Woody: The growth experience.Andrew: I was emotionally dependent on my parents' love and affirmation. So much of me furthering my education and doing good things in prison was so when my parents would come and visit me, I could say, "Guess what I'm doing?"Woody: They could be proud.Andrew: I say all that to say that whenever I had the parole hearing, I prayed, and I just prayed. "I know I'm not going to make it this time, but please, God, just let me come home while my parents are still alive so then I can be there for them as they've been for me for my whole life." Luckily, that day, I have a parole hearing. Generally, they tell you after the hearing, you've been granted or you've been denied. They threw a curveball, and they said, "We want to take this under advisement. We want to think about it." I understand I was the first juvenile lifer after Montgomery with a parole hearing. The parole board generally doesn't hear at that point, murderers going up for parole.I go back to my life in prison. I tell myself, "You're going to be denied. You're going to get a letter in the mail in 30 days that said, 'You've been denied. Apply again in two years.'" I'm back on the range crew. I'm back doing my job. I'm worrying about cattle. I'm worrying about inventories. I remember it was 10:30 on Thursday, June 9th. My supervisor is a guy named Alan Barton, June 9th, 2016, his phone rings, and he answers it, and he looks at me, and I could tell whatever that the call was about, it was about me. And so, I'm wondering, "What's this about?" Nowhere did it come into my mind this has something to do with parole. And he's like, "Okay, okay, okay." He hangs up the phone, and he looks at me, and he says, "Pack your shit." In prison, when you hear, "Pack your shit," it's usually one of a couple of things, but it could also mean you're going to the cell block.Woody: Right. It could mean you're getting swung. The other one is you're going home.Andrew: You're going home. This is how much I didn't allow myself to believe I was going home. I was prepared to go home. [crosstalk] Immediately, in that split second, "What are the things--? Do they know I brought a brick of community coffee back to the dorm to get to this old timer. What do they know? I got some extra chicken out the kitchen." And he says, "You're making parole." And I was just like, "Wait. What?" He's like, "The parole board granted you, and you're releasing now." I lived at the office of the range crew at the lake house, at the hog lot, this is prison jargon. Like, 80% of my properties out there because I go back to the dorm to sleep and then come back to work and work all day. He says, "Pack your stuff," and I was like, "Man, if this is a bad message, I don't want to pack all my stuff. So, let me go to the camp and see." He's like, "I'm not bringing you back. You're going home."So, it took me going to the camp and then giving me my release papers to sign before I believed it. They said, "Do you want to call anyone?" I said, "Yeah, I want to call my mom." So, they give me the phone, I call my mom. She answers, and I said, "Hey, do you know anything about me?" She says, "Yeah, we're coming to get you." I said, "How long have you--" My mom knew one hour before I did.Woody: Wow.Andrew: My attorney called her from the parole board to say, "Hey, the parole board just called me in to say that they're granting Andrew's parole." It was great that my mom knew for an hour before I called her. She knew she was waiting on that call. My sister had just graduated medical school. My parents were packing her up, getting ready to send her off for her residency. So, just thinking, my younger sister finished medical school, they're packing her up, and at the same time, their son's releasing from prison.Jim: What a day.Andrew: I was told at 10:30. I got up that morning thinking, "I may die here. I may get out in a few years." At 10:30, they said, "You're going home today." At 04:00, I was walking out the front gate with my family.Woody: Wow. One of the few people--Jim: For the first time outside since you were 15. Woody: Outside of the gates of Angola.Andrew: Right. Packing, getting all my stuff gathered, and all these old timers and these juvenile lifers who've been there all this time are coming up to me, "We're so happy for you, man. This is awesome." I remember thinking to myself, "Man, how much grace that they have," because if I was in their shoes, I would be saying, "Why this guy?"Jim: Yeah. People try to sabotage people getting out sometimes in prison. Andrew: "This guy's only been here 19 years. Why is he getting out?" Jim: You would almost think there'd be jealousy there.Andrew: Yeah, and I'm sure there was but guys were just showing me so much love. The last two guys I talked to before I get out were two juvenile lifers. One had been in for 40 years. One had been in for 50 years.Woody: Wow.Andrew: They say, "You're going to be the guy that helps the rest of us get out." I don't think they meant literally, but like, "You're going to get out, and you're going to show that people can get second chances. Man, you could do well." I was like, "Man, I'm sorry that it's me." They're like, "No, no, man, get the hell out of here. You're going to do well." We're driving down that road that I didn't know if I'd ever leave. My sister asks me, "Well, now what?" I had all these plans on paper, but now it's like, "Oh,-Jim: Now, it's real.Andrew: -it's real." I told myself what came to me is, "I've got to find a way to help people. I've got to find a way to help these people that I've left behind." So, through that guilt of leaving my friends behind was born Louisiana Parole Project.Woody: Wow.Jim: And what a beautiful project, and we're going to get into that. I do want to say, because I sense you had a little bit of guilt with you that you were the first, and there were these people that in your mind are more deserving because they had spent longer time and all ofthat. For me, looking from the outside, I think you had a lot of-- and I don't even know if you felt this pressure, but I would have thought you would have had a lot of pressure on you because anybody who was against that ruling is watching you to wait for you to fail. "Y'all going to see. Y'all going to see, they let these guys out and watch what happens. They're going to screw up again." Wow, were you the total opposite of that, number one. Probably far exceeded even people with the best of intentions, expectations, and that's what we want to get into. But you did. You were the first, and that was great.You also were carrying a heavy burden, just like these guys told you, you're going to be the one that they use as the example. So, I'm sure in the back of the mind, they were thinking, "Be a good example because you can screw it up for all of us." [chuckles] So, you were just that. Now, I want you to tell us about your Louisiana Parole Project and what it does and the value of that for these released convicts, inmates, people.Andrew: I come home in June of 2016, I recognize-- my dad gives me a truck. I knew I couldn't go back to Eunice, Louisiana. Everyone knew me for the worst thing I did. They either loved me or hated me but there weren't opportunities there. And I wanted to go to college. Heck, I was 34 years old, getting out of prison from this life sentence, smart guy. I've already earned these credits. Testament to the prison system, I felt getting out, like, "Man, I've earned all these credits. I have to go to college." Whereas if I wouldn't have had those opportunities, I might look and go, "Damn, I'm not ready to invest four years of my life. I got to go into the job market right away." So, I enrolled for college right away. But then, I started telling people, "Man, I want to find a way to help these guys. I realize I'm coming out and with this ruling, I'm just the first. There are going to be other people coming home. How do we create opportunities for people when they come home?"I'm going to be okay because my family is going to make sure that I have opportunities to be successful. I had built a network for myself in prison that I know, "Hey, I'm going to take advantage of this network to find a good job and to hang around good people and have volunteer opportunities." The guys coming home and I had enough common sense to know that, "Hey, the first few people who come home are going to affect it for everybody. So, we need to make sure the first guys who come home are successful so that stakeholders, namely parole board, governor, judges, keep giving people chances." This was an abstract idea and literally just starting, building it out from my experience, from the experience of the first few people that came home, what did they struggle with when they first come home. And we've built a program. We're a nonprofit organization, so I had to figure out how to build a nonprofit organization, how to set it up.Jim: Not easy.Andrew: My first job was actually someone clued me into working at Pointe Coupee Detention Center. I taught pre-release at the detention center for a short time. There's a curriculum, and it's actually this curriculum I taught in the inside at Angola, at Camp F in my spare time. So, I have a job. My first paycheck goes to chartering the organization with the Secretary of State's office and the local clerk at court's office. And then, applying to the IRS for the 501(c)(3) status. All that costs money. So, I'm just figuring out the administrative part of building the organization, asking funders for money. It's the chicken before the egg. I'd say, "Hey, this is what we're going to do." Well, funders would say, "Well, what have you done?" "Well, I haven't done anything."[laughter]Jim: "That's what we need you for."Andrew: "We need the funds." "Well, come back to us whenever you've done something." A lot of volunteer work, part time, going to college. And then finally, we had a couple of funders that took a chance on us. I mean, fast forward from 2016 to today, we operate a residential reentry program in Baton Rouge. We work with people who've been convicted all over the state that are coming home, and we work with people who've done 20 years or more, because we recognize these are guys who are more likely to listen to their peers. And it's a pure mentorship program. Same concept with AA. If you're an alcoholic who's going to AA, your sponsor is going to be another alcoholic.Woody: Somebody's who been through it.Andrew: Who's been through it and so we had the same mindset. We're going to have people who've come out of prison, who've been successful mentoring other people who come out of prison. Initially, that was an odd mindset for law enforcement, for probation and parole for DOC, because their job is usually keeping ex-cons away from each other. But today, we own and operate nine transitional houses in Baton Rouge. We own these homes outright. Seven houses for men, two houses for women. When they come home from prison, we're giving them a safe, stable place to stay. We have rules, we have expectations, but some of the things, our clients have served 20, 30, 40, 50 years in prison. So, it started out with these juvenile lifers coming home. And the legislature passed a bill in 2017 that also allowed something-- some people call it 40-Year Lifers, some people call it Disco Lifers. There's a group of about 120 lifers during the 70s that had parole eligibility before the legislature in '79 made life, life without parole. There was a bill that restored parole eligibility to some of those guys.Woody: I didn't know about that.Andrew: We helped some of them get back out. Jim: Wow.Andrew: And the governor has been signing commutations. And a big part of why he's signing commutations is because we say, "Hey, if you give this person a second chance, our program is going to help them rebuild their life." He took a couple of chances on people, and he's been signing more and more commutations. He's in the last year he's in office. Last week, he signed commutations for 12 lifers. These people are going to come through our program. To date, since 2016, we've had over 370 men and women who were once serving life or de facto life sentences have gotten out of prison. I know people hearing this go, "Wait a minute, 370 lifers?" Yeah, 370 lifers and de facto lifers, people sentenced to 50 years, 99 years, 200 years have come home. The reason you haven't heard about it is because they're not going back to prison.Jim: Period.Woody: Because they had made-- [crosstalk] Jim: Yes.Andrew: Our recidivism rate is 1%.Jim: 1%, y'all. Let that sink in.Woody: But you got to give them the other side of the scale. The average just on general recidivism rate is in the 40% range.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Which means almost one out of two that get out without Andrew's program aregoing to offend again. Jim: I'm sorry. Go ahead.Andrew: I said this to y'all before we went on air. I have a unique perspective where I did time, I'm a criminal justice practitioner, and I got my master's degree in criminology. So, one thing I learned actually getting the book education is when we hear like, "Almost one out of two people return to prison," the problem is it's the same couple of guys that go back and forth, back and forth. And they actually--[crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. Quadruples the number.Woody: Regardless, take those guys out of the equation, 1% is a stupid, crazy number in agood way.Andrew: We start working with our clients before they're released.Woody: Let's do it like this. You showed a picture of two people that you picked up yesterday, tell us what the process is going to be for them, from where you start until hopefully where it is.Andrew: Sure. So, two lifers came home yesterday. One served 41 years, one served 38 years. We started meeting with them months ago when we knew they had opportunities to come home. One was given a commutation by the governor, went through the pardon process successfully. The other guy was actually resentenced by the Orleans District Attorney because it was determined that he was overincarcerated. He was someone, after reviewing his case, they decided that he was less culpable than his co-defendants and he shouldn't have got a life sentence. So, they made a deal with him. He pled guilty to time served, came home. Anyway, we started working with him and it's just how much what our organization's reputation is. We go in, ex-cons--Woody: I was going to say, you go to Angola.Andrew: Go to Angola and the warden lets us in to go and see guys and prepare because they know we're not going in to bring in contraband. We're not trying to get anyone to escape. We're trying to get people out the right way, but we've got to go and prepare them for what to expect. To be frank, I've got to go in and determine, is this someone I want to help? Not everyone who applies to be our client, we accept. We turn down a lot of people. We look at the prison record and we also read between the lines. Having done time, someone who's done time or worked at Angola--[crosstalk]Jim: Real knows real. Andrew: Real knows real. Jim: [chuckles] As they say.Andrew: We want to make sure that it's someone who's taken responsibility for their actions and addressed the things that brought them to prison and bettered themselves and they're ready to come home. People, you're different at 25 than you were at 15. You're a different person at 35. You're a different person at 45.Jim: Amen.Andrew: A lot of my clients are 60- and 70-year-old men who are taking up unnecessaryspace at Angola.Jim: If you're judged by your worst mistake you ever made, everybody would hate everybody. Everybody, stop for a second, think about the worst mistake you've ever made, and then think about if everybody knew about that if they'd hate you or strongly dislike you. People change.Andrew: We pick our clients up at the front gate of the prison when they're released. We bring them to our program. Our clients, things we all take for granted, they've never used a cell phone, they've never used a debit card, they've never paid for gas at the pump, they've probably never opened a bank account. Who has been incarcerated for decades and still has their birth certificate and their Social Security card? These people, if they came home and didn't have the support, they'd just crumble, like, "Where do I start?" And their families, many of them have outlived their families. The ones who do have families, families love them, but they don't know where to start. So, our job is to prepare people to be successful. We're not putting people up for life and giving them a place to stay. We're training people to be self-sufficient.Woody: Like a transition.Andrew: It's a transition. We want you to learn the skills you need. I give someone their first cell phone they've ever had. [crosstalk] After a week, they're going to be like a 10-year-old with the first one. So now, we got to teach you how to put the phone down. Now, we've got to teach you what workplace etiquette is. We've got to teach you that when you went to prison, what was considered flirting is considered harassment. We've got to teach you what this institutionalization that you've had, "Hey, in society, we're more accepting of different people, different ideas. You've got to let that old thinking go." A lot of guys obviously come home with skills, and now we're--Jim: Mad skills, especially trade skills.Andrew: So, we're looking to do-- and I shouldn't just say, guys, we work with women too. Once they go through our initial program, we feel confident. Now, we're working to find them jobs. We give them transportation. We're going to transport them to their parole officer. We're going to transport them to their job. We bring them to the grocery store. We bring them to their medical appointments. Initially, "Hey, we're going to take care of all your needs. Now, we're going to teach you how to be self-sufficient." Our goal is we're turning tax burdens into taxpayers. We're not just getting people out and saying, "We're saving the state money, because that's one less person you have to pay for," we're turning these people into taxpayers. We're not just turning them into taxpayers when they're working. We're getting them volunteer opportunities. They're volunteering in the communities they live. I tell clients, "Go join a church." Some of them say, "Hey, I'm not into church." And I say, "You go find your church, find you an AA group, find you some group. Start showing up. After you're there three or four times, someone's going to recognize you and say, "Hey, you want to go to lunch? Hey, tell me about yourself.'"Woody: Integrate them into the community.Andrew: When people get in trouble, 9 times out of 10, it's because their family doesn't know what they're doing. There are no connections. What we find that's worked is we want all these tentacles into them. I'm going to tell you we're a parole officer's best friend because our parole officers have no problems with their clients because oftentimes, the guys out onparole, mama may not know where you're at, but that parole officer is keeping in contact with you, a Parole Project client. These are people who were convicted of the worst crimes, and they're the most successful group out there.And then, the mode is some of our clients who've come out been successful, we've had people start their own small business. We have homeowners, state employees, carpenters, welders, cooks. The people, you walk into Walmart and you don't realize the guy who's checking out next to you just got out of prison doing 30 years. You're in church, the person in the pew next to you is someone who came home. And that's the point. What does someone who's been in prison look like? We're training them to not only to blend in, but to give back to the community.What I would say is we've proven in Louisiana, a place where life without parole is something that is exactly what it means. And we've just accepted that, "Well, we give people life, and we can't let them out because they've done something so bad, they can't get out," or we keep them there so long, they can't adjust to society. We're proving that wrong, and we're proving that. And this isn't like a bleeding heart speech, because I'm not a bleeding heart. I don't believe-- there is a reason we have prisons, there's a reason we hold people accountable. Well, we can hold people accountable, and then we can take a look back and see, is someone worth redemption? Is someone rehabilitated? Someone worth a second chance? And it's a resounding yes. There's a way that you can support someone.One thing I hate to hear is, "He's been in so long, how can we let him out?" What I say is, "Shame on us as a society if we keep someone in prison so long, the reason we can't let them out is because we've kept them in prison so long."Jim: That's a great way of putting it. And you know what? I think your nonprofit does more than anything else, is the same thing that you get inside prison from the staff if they're doing it right, hope. The biggest reason that people reoffend, in my opinion, is they try other things, they hit a bunch of roadblocks, and it's the only thing they know. If you have a felony on your record and you go apply for a job and you have to disclose that felony, and you do, you're doing the right thing, it's hard. Look, I'm not saying they didn't earn the right to have to struggle with that, but it's hard for people to give you a second chance. It is not easy. I'm not someone that lived in that life, but I've seen a lot of people pass through my life that have had that struggle. I've seen people turn back to the only thing they know, because it's the only way they can make money, is by slinging drugs or doing whatever it was that put them in prison to begin with.Your program is really helping them adjust and teaching them that there's another way because anybody who's respected, even the worst of us, when you're respected for the right things, for being a good person, paying your taxes, all those things, you have a self-respect that you don't want to go back to that life.Woody: And then, second chance also-- Jim: It's hugely important.Woody: -what you just hit on, people come out and they can't get the jobs or people are like, "I'm not hiring a con," through second chance, through your program, somebody did take a chance. They're probably the best damn employee in the world. They're like, "Can you give me like 10 more of them?"Andrew: I was about to say two points I want to respond to as it relates to second chances, there is not an employer that we've gotten someone connected to-- a lot of times, it's a lot of work, getting this employer to take a chance, and I understand it. He's got to think, how isthe public going to feel about it? How are my other employees going to feel about it? There's not an employer who doesn't come back and say, "Hey, if you have another guy, I'd be willing to hire another guy." We have multiple employers, car dealerships in Baton Rouge, state government agencies that have multiple clients working for them.As it relates to hope-- We talked about Warden Cain, the current warden of Angola, Tim Hooper, is really a good man, and he's doing good things up there. But as it relates to hope, prisoner-on-staff violence is down at Angola. Prisoner-on-prisoner violence is down at Angola. Participation in educational and self-help programs are up. Why is that? Because people in Angola are seeing people go home. And not only go home, but they're seeing them stay home and stay successful. They know guys' success, guys communicate, and it gives people hope.Jim: So, light at the end of the tunnel.Andrew: What I tell people, even the hardest person who says, "I don't believe in any of this, lock them up. Why should I care about prison conditions?", if you don't care about the thousands of people who live in Angola, care about the employees who work there.Jim: That's right.Andrew: Because they should go into a safe environment. What I can tell you is, it's a safer place to work whenever there are people going home and there is hope in the prison. Hope is a good thing.Woody: Absolutely.Jim: This is a damn good episode. One more thing-- Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: Chills. How can people help support your program? Woody: Say the full name.Jim: We're going to link all of that too.Woody: [crosstalk] -links and everything. We're going to put it across all our stuff because I believe what you're doing is really awesome. Y'all, they are nonprofit, and you fund it through donations and stuff, right?Andrew: Yeah. Jim: In grants. Woody: Grants.Andrew: Grants and individual donations. So, our name is Louisiana Parole Project. Our website is paroleproject.org. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, @paroleproject. Check us out, you'll see-- If you're wondering what does someone look like coming out of prison, take a look at our social media. We call it the Money Shot, is the guy walking out of the front gate.Jim: [laughs] I love it.Woody: Hey, I'm going to follow--[crosstalk]Jim: The Money Shot.Woody: When we leave the studio, I'm going to go follow.Andrew: And people can donate to our organization online at paroleproject.org. Your donation, no matter how large or small, helps us buy someone coming out of prison, a pair of shoes, helps someone go to driving school, fund the cost to getting their driver's license, gets people started. We are a nonprofit organization, and all of our money goes to supporting people. It's a good investment. What I could tell you is, is it costs taxpayers thousands of dollars to keep people in prison for life. The older you get, the more expensive it costs.Jim: Doubles.Andrew: It does. It's a good return on the investment. We have been ill served by politicians who have fostered the idea that keeping people in prison forever makes us safer. We've led the country in incarceration because of life sentences, and it didn't affect crime. The people who are committing crimes today are not the guys getting out of Angola. So, there's a difference. When we hear some people are like, "Ah, I'm not into these reforms that are happening," what I can tell you is without a doubt, because I see it, I work with these guys, they're not the guys committing crime. They're the guys who are paying taxes, giving back to their community.Jim: Well, thank you for that and keep up the good work on that end. One more thing before we let you get out of here. You got a child and a wife now and we haven't even mentioned that. His wife's a doctor, y'all. How about that?Woody: Yeah.Andrew: Yeah. I'm a lucky man. God's shown me a lot of favor. The best job like I've everhad now is I'm dad to an 11-month-old daughter. Jim: Beautiful.Woody: Aw. Congratulations.Andrew: It's been a wonderful experience. Woody: Congratulations.Jim: Well, keep killing it, man. Keep doing the good work.Woody: Hey, you know what? I would like to ask you back again sometime. Jim: Please.Woody: Because this is [unintelligible [01:02:21]. This is important.Jim: Very important. Thank you.Woody: Thank you.Jim: Thank you very much. We appreciate you.Andrew: Thank you.Woody: Our favorite episode we've ever done. Episodes actually that we've ever done.Jim: Yeah, it was great. We hope y'all enjoyed this. Follow the Patreon, subscribe to us, if you'd like more information, and hopefully you would on the LPP, we're going to link all of that in the description of this podcast. Just scroll down, you'll see it there. You can click on it and help.Woody: When you hear it, if you're moved like I was, share it because we want everybody to know this story.Jim: That's important. Yes.Woody: And we've told you, it'll always be something different coming out of Angola. This isas far in the positive spectrum as we've ever been. Jim: 100%. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: Peace.Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Becoming The Warden | The Legacy and Legend that is Burl Cain

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 1970 67:49

In this episode of Bloody Angola Woody Overton and Jim Chapman tell the story of legendary Warden Burl Cain. Burl Cain was the longest serving Warden in the history of Louisiana State Penitentiary and his vision and reforms changed this historic prison forever. This docu-series is the most anticipated and sought after we have ever done on Bloody Angola Podcast and it starts now!#BloodyAngolaPodcast #BurlCain #Becomingthewarden #Louisianastatepenitentiary #PrisonWarden #Podcasts #Dixoncorrectionalinstitute #DCI #MDOCOur Sponsors for this episode have a great deal for you!GET 16 FREE MEALS PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOWBECOMING THE WARDEN: THE LEGACY AND LEGEND THAT IS BURL CAIN PART 1Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Jim: And we're back, Woody Overton. Woody: Back in the saddle. Jim: Back in effect. Woody: Back in effect. Jim: And we're bringing y'all a hell of a story today. Highly requested.Woody: Yes. A legend.Jim: Legend. Someone you have some experience with. Woody: I do. I have a lot of years of experience with him. Solid dude. They can say whatever they want to. Everybody's going to have their haters or whatever. And certainly, he marches to the beat of a different drummer, but he's a visionary and has affected so many lives. Jim: Boy, he sure has. And I'll tell you, as far as research, I've probably enjoyed researching this man more than just about anyone I've researched.Woody: I've read his book years ago when it came out. Of course, I have the family history at Angola and all that, and of course, my personal history with him. Just super, super intelligent, super unique.Jim: Yeah, very. I think that's a great word to describe him. And of course, if you're hanging by a thread right now trying to figure out who we're talking about, it is the legendary warden of Angola, Burl Cain. So, we're going to start off and we're just going to take you through a journey of his life.Woody: Yeah. And I think it's so important, this research that you put together, a lot of it I didn't know, especially about the early years. And I don't know how they haven't made a movie about him yet, honestly. Jim: It's got to be coming at some point. Woody: Y'all, we've done a couple of series before, but not real long ones or anything. But it's going to be several parts to this. But you got to stay tuned because every one of them is going to kick you. Jim: Yeah. So, to start off, he was born in Pitkin, Louisiana, and I was not familiar with Pitkin. Woody: Small town in Vernon Parish. Jim: Vernon Parish. And for those of you that are kind of wondering where Vernon Parish is, that's on the Texas line. It's in the center of the state all the way to the westernmost.Woody: If you're familiar with Toledo Bend, the largest lake and kind of splits Louisiana. Texas too, but fantastic for fishing, all that. It's real close to that. Kind of a piney woods area, but really, really rural. Shit, there's not even any major highways to get over there. From off the Interstate 49, which runs north and south, splits the state. Shit, it's probably hour and a half, two hours from there. Jim: Yeah. And he actually described it in an interview one time, and he said, "We didn't even have a stoplight."Woody: Yeah, well, my hometown still doesn't have a stoplight.Jim: [laughs] So, you think about that, folks. He went from that to warden of the largest maximum-security prison in the United States which, first of all, goes to show you that it doesn't matter where you're from, it doesn't matter, hard work and really destined. I think he was kind of touched by God to do what he does. He's 80 years old as of today. Woody: So, he is a couple of years younger than my dad. Actually, maybe one year because my dad was born the week before Peral Harbor, and he was born on July 2nd, 1942. Jim: And still going.Woody: Still going, very, very healthy. Jim: We're going to get into that. Woody: But he grew up on a farm, y'all, that's where he developed his work ethic. And let me tell you something, this dude can work. Jim: Let me tell you, if you're 80 years old-- look, if I make 80, I'm considering that a success. When you're 80 and you're still working, that tells you who he is as far as his work ethic is concerned. He grew up on a farm that would play a huge role in his future development. And he grew up in a very religious house. Woody: Right. Back then, not knocking it, but a lot of people, especially ones that were raised on farms, their parents had to raise them as help. I mean, they worked. Jim: That's right. You needed help, you had another kid.Woody: Talking about throwing hay, tending animals and cows and everything else and working the gardens. And hey, there wasn't any PlayStations and cable TV or anything. Hell, they're lucky if they had electricity. Jim: And you woke up 4:30 in the morning to milk them cows and do all those things. Woody: You didn't have a problem going to bed at dark with your ass tired.Jim: You were tired. And his household was very religious, y'all, extremely religious. He attended church, as he described it, every time the doors were open since birth. And he didn't even dance. He wasn't allowed to dance or attend dancing--[crosstalk] Woody: And I had a lot of people that I grew up with that were the same way. That just wasn't acceptable. People talk about Bible Belt, I can't say Vernon is directly, but I know there's some count-- not counties, parishes over there that are actually dry. They don't sell alcohol. They're Bible Belt. So, down here where south Louisiana, where everything goes, and then you hit that area of the state, it was borderline to the west of Alexandria and all that, but they were really, really country, and the farther north you go, the more country getting. There's a couple of dry parishes in the state, and this area would have been one of them.Jim: No doubt. At his age, being born in '42, he was kind of hitting those late teenage years when Elvis Presley-Woody: Absolutely.Jim: -was big. So, I'd love to sit him down and ask him, "How did you avoid dance when Elvis Presley came on the radio?"Woody: He didn't have a radio. Jim: [laughs] Yeah, that's it. That's probably exactly what he would say. "I was out there milking cows. I wasn't worried about the King." Also, Burl Cain never dreamed he would be a prison warden growing up. Of course, being from such a small town, that'd be like most people dreaming they were going to be an astronaut. It just didn't seem possible. As a matter of fact, he remembers vividly fearing Angola, as it was common for his mother to tell him, "If you don't straighten up, you're going to end up in Angola." It was a threat, matter of fact. Woody: And one thing they did even back then, believe it or not, is most schools, once a year, certain age group of kids, they bus them to Angola. And of course, it was educational for them, and they didn't hold back. They took you down the walks and stuff like that, and they fed you the prison food, and they were like, most girls be crying and shit like that, and they're like, "I ain't never coming to this motherfucker."Jim: Yeah. It was used as a form of threat. And so, he had another dream. And believe it or not, y'all, he wanted to be a veterinarian.Woody: Yeah, he wanted to be a vet. And when he graduated from high school, he went to LSU Alexandria campus, y'all, that's a satellite campus, and they have one in Alexandria and one in Shreveport to do just that. But he struggled coming from a small town where the chemistry side of school basically was a fight for him. And they just didn't teach a whole lot beyond the basics, like the element charts and stuff like that at his high school. So, he switched to something that was more prevalent in the areas from and that's agriculture, education. Let me tell you something, vet school is tough. You might as well go and become a doctor. Nowadays, you got to have a four point whatever just to get in, and there's no guarantee you're going to make it. And it's heavy, heavy on sciences. Jim: A lot of people don't realize LSU has probably the best vet school, if not one of the best in the country. Woody: So, imagine this, coming from probably my hometown, I graduated we had 28 in my graduating class. Still don't have a red light to this day. I submit to you that his town was smaller. And back then, they didn't test for the kids to pass the test. You just got the books, you know Jim, it was a different type of education. And they were just giving your basics.But the ag part, growing up on a farm, he already knew tons about it. And pretty much everyone in his family were teachers. So, he settled on basically just working towards a life of teaching after college, which I think is very unique now that I know him.Jim: Right. You look back on that life and you see how those skills benefited him, even though he wasn't in the world of education when he really got going. So, he graduates from LSU in agriculture education. He starts teaching at a high school, and [chuckles] he figures out in about three months' time that teaching is not easy.Woody: Not at the high school level.Jim: Yeah, not at the high school level. So, he figured, "This ain't for me." He lasted about three months, and he went to work for the state of Louisiana at what's known as the Louisiana Farm Bureau. Woody: Yeah, Louisiana, of course, our number one industry is oil and gas. It's kind of a tossup between the two, but then you have seafood, and then it's agriculture. And the seafood and agriculture are kind of on the same level. Like, where I'm from, it's all farms, we raise trees. So, agriculture is beyond just raising cows. It's growing trees. It's everything that you can profit from in the long run by growing it or raising it.Jim: That's right. And he was a master of that, having grown up in it, and then got official education in it. And in 1976--Woody: '76, I was six years old.Jim: I was two. [laughs] In 1976, he finally starts his career in state government, and he started out with the Louisiana Department of Corrections as the Assistant Secretary for Agribusiness.Woody: And that's huge. Now, I'm going to be honest with you, and this is just a straight-up truth, and it's how I got my state government job, my first one with the Department of Corrections. Actually, when I was in high school, I got a job. One of the local state reps got me a job cutting grass at the state-run old folks' home and the Villa. So, when he gets this job with the state, there's a lot of things that go along with that. One of them is, and I have some personal knowledge of this, I'll tell y'all probably on the next episode, one of them is you're civil service. And there's a lot of protections afforded to you through the civil service. And you get your guaranteed raises. You're never going to get rich, but you have protection. There's a certain comfort level of that.Jim: Yeah, they can't just fire you.Woody: Right. Real quick. When I left the university PD, we were civil service, to go to the sheriff's office, and they were like, "Why would you leave a civil service job to go somewhere where you're an at will employee?" I said, "Well, I don't need civil service to save my job." But civil service, and this is the truth, this is how much protection you have, if I was state police and I walked in my captain's office and I got on his desk and I took a shit on his desk, the first time, all they can do is give you a verbal warning. The second time, I go in and take a shit on his desk, then they can write you up for it. And the third time, they can fire you. There's only certain offenses like drugs or whatever that they can fire you for on the spot. Jim: Did you ever take a shit on his desk? [laughs] Woody: No, I didn't. I didn't have a captain either. I answered to the colonel. But just an example. And they say, it's like the Snark missile. For you who don't remember, during the Iraq War, Saddam had these missiles called Snarks. Every time they were developed and every time they fire them, the fuckers blow up. And so, they said, civil service employee is like a Snark missile. You can't fire and you can't make it work. That's not true. A lot of the best people in the world are lifetime state employees, and a lot of my dear friends are. Jim: Absolutely. And look, y'all, this is 1976, so the economy is down at this point in time. That was a really good job. And of course, look, any sort of state job at that level, sometimes you got to know somebody, Woody Overton.Woody: Absolutely. Jim: That ain't changed. That's been that way since the beginning of time.Woody: [crosstalk] -is and it's Louisiana. Jim: That's right. Woody: I got my job at Department of Corrections because my dad pulled some strings with politicians. Jim: Sure. And that was a good job. And this was a downtime in the economy. So, Burl freely admits, and he said this on many interviews, that his brother was instrumental in getting him that job. His brother, y'all, and whether you're aware of this or not, was a senator from the state of Louisiana. Woody: They look almost identical. I'm surprised that they're not twins. Jim: Yeah. So, he starts that job, and he's a rockstar at it. He's doing great, and in 1981, he gets an opportunity. Woody: 10 years before I went there. In 1981, he became the Warden of Dixon Correctional Institute, known as DCI. And he was only 38.Jim: Only 38, warden of the prison. Woody: When I met him, it was in '90 or '91, and of course, he had been the warden for 10 years. DCI, y'all, it's a mixed security prison, and this is kind of a misnomer here too, but mixed security, meaning it has medium, maximum, and some trusty camps. The trusty camps would be like-- Jackson, Louisiana, is full of state-run facilities. Villa, like I was telling you about, geriatric home, state run. The hospital from mentally insane, which is basically on DCI property, right across the street from their Claiborne. And it has the state-run mental hospital. If you don't have healthcare and you legitimately to be, I'd say crazy, what's politically correct term? Jim: Nuts. [laughs] Woody: If you're literally nuts, you went there. Look, I had an aunt who spent most of her life in that hospital. Then, you have DCI. It's all these state run-- the war vets home was there. Biggest state war vets home is there. So, you have all these state-run facilities. And I guarantee you, all my people from Jackson, I've got family from there, all of them were state employees, one facility or another. So, DCI is located right outside of Jackson, y'all, which is about 40 minutes north of Baton Rouge. Small town still to this day. One major road running through it. And then, DCI is off of one of those roads.But the mixed security, the main camp at DCI where I worked, you had two maximum security camps. And then, they had the satellite, the trusty camp at the state mental hospital. And that's because they took everything there. They were orderlies and took care of the grounds and the whole nine yards. And I used to go to little peewee football practice on the state ground. And there, the prisoners would line up on the fence, all the trustys. And years later on extra duty shifts, I would go pick up and I'd go be the guard at the trusty camp there. But they do that for economic reasons, and Burl had them do that for economic reasons because they didn't have to bust them back and forth to work every day. Jim: Wow. Woody: And so, they were there around the clock. And they were instrumental in all the state-run facilities, the trustees, the cow barns and everything. I'm talking about, look, DCI wasn't 18,000 acres, but it was a lot, but spread out in different areas. The cow barns and all that, shit, they raised cattle for the state of Louisiana. But anyway, it was there. Burl--Jim: 38 years old.Woody: Yeah, I didn't know that--[crosstalk]Jim: Damn, when I was 38, there's no way I'm running a prison. I'm lucky to stay out of prison. Woody: You're right. I was in Texas still when I was 38.Jim: Yeah, really amazing and a huge opportunity. And guess what? It was his first experience as being a warden, what he would become just an absolute legend for it. At that time, DCI had about 1400 inmates. That was its capacity. And it was female and male, which made it different from other prisons. It was also relatively new. It had been built in 1976, so it was only six years old. That's like the state-of-the-art presence, especially compared to Angola at that time, which was hundred years old.Woody: By the time I got there in '91, there were no females there. It was probably like 2500, they had added on to it. Jim: So, no females at that time, gotcha. Woody: And then, the other kicker is, and I forgot to mention this earlier, so I say it's about 40 minutes north of Baton Rouge. Well, guess what? It's only 30 miles from Bloody Angola. It's East and West Louisiana. I was born and raised in Clinton, where my grandfather was a judge, but West Feliciana butts up to it. My mama was from West Feliciana, where her daddy was the DA during this time, actually. But that 30 miles is deceiving because back then, they had the old road to Bloody Angola and that wound up the Tunica Hills and part of it's gravel and shit. And when you turn it off at 61, it took you another 40 minutes to get from there, the last 10 miles to get in. Jim: It seemed like 300 miles. It was not what you would call picturesque. You're not looking at the Rockies when you're going down the highway. This is where Cain coined what would eventually be one of his most famous phrases. He started at the facility, and as is common, your first day on the job as warden, you're going to have a meeting with all of your people, and you're going to learn the ins and outs of this prison, things that maybe the outgoing warden didn't tell you. And one of the things he found out was that they had no worship services for the inmates. And it was where he kind of coined the phrase, "moral rehabilitation." Woody: He carried that [crosstalk] to talk about it, but he still carries to this day. And he was serious about it. Jim: Yeah. It was, as a matter of fact, one of the first things he changed at Dixon, was bringing religion into prisons, something that, look, we're going to talk a lot about. So, he becomes a rockstar again. He's just killing it at Dixon. Woody: Let me tell you just a couple real quick stories, and I know I'm going off script, but I met him the first time, I think it was 1990 or 1991, and I got hired. So, he had what they call the White House. And the White House was an administrative building. I had to go to the White House, do paperwork and stuff like that, but I hadn't seen him. And then they put me on the largest rec room-- after I got back from Angola, doing my training and all that. They put me on the largest rec room at DCI. And long story short, I ended up getting in a fight with him because the captain told me, you give them direct orders like, "Hey, do this," and if they don't do it, you can arrest them for it. And so, one of them I told to come with me, and he turned around, ran out in the yard, and I had to hit my pager and get the captain to come. And the captain went out there and got him and arrested him. He said, "But next time you do it, you hit your pager, and you use whatever force necessary to bring the situation out of control." Well, it wasn't two weeks later, Sunday night, they turned off the lights in the dorm, and I told him to clear the rec room, except for the night guys that were up. And one guy was standing on the back wall by the water fountain with his foot up on the wall. And we said, "Get to your house." And I told him, "Get to your house." And he just kind of looked at me. I said, "I'm not going to tell you again. Get to your house." And he didn't move. And so, I hit my pager, and I said, "Well, you're under arrest. You're coming with me?" He said, "Fuck you." And he turned around, walked into the dorm, which was closing down at that time. The lights and the inmates are shuffling back and forth, getting the water, going to the bathroom, and I tackled him, and the fist fight was on. So, Captain Raymond Newman said, he said, "Man, when I hit that rec room door, and I was long ways away from it," he said, "And I didn't see you." He said, "I knew it sure had turned to shit. I knew shit was going down." And what happened was that there's a couple of fireable offenses. One, if you get caught having sex with an inmate or you get caught bringing in contraband or sleeping on duty, civil service doesn't protect you for that. And the biggest one is if another officer is in a fight and you don't help them, then you can be fired on the spot.Well, there's two sergeants on the dorm. I'm fighting with this guy. I didn't think I could start a riot. And I'm fighting with this guy, and he's a big dude, and one of the sergeant is trying to help me, the other froze up, didn't want to do anything. Newman came in. Long story short, we get him out. We were punching, we were punching. My eye was swollen and stuff. Long story short, Ray gets me to the office. He said, "You got to go home." I'm like, "Fucking getting fired, man." I said, "Ray, you told me, use whatever force necessary. He wouldn't stop and put my hands on, and he went to fight." And he said, "You could have started a fucking riot, man. You realize that? You got to go home, and we'll call you." I'm like, "Fuck, I'm getting fired." So, they called me on Monday morning, and he said, "You need to report to Warden Cain's office." Jim: [chuckles] Oh, shit. Woody: My first time in a life on the carpet, besides the military, being called on the carpet, it means you know you're going to get your ass shoot to get fired or whatever. And he brought me in, and I'll never forget it. He actually got up from behind his desk and he shook my hand. He said, "Sergeant Overton, come on in. Have a seat. Boy, tell me what happened." I said, "Warden Cain, Captain Newman, he was in there." I wasn't trying to throw him on the bus. I said, "This is what happened before. He told me next time, use whatever force necessary to bring the situation under control. And so, I did. We ended up fighting." He leaned back and steepled his fingers a little bit, kind of like [unintelligible [00:26:36] would. Warden Cain, he's not big in stature, he's not tall, but he's not fat, but he's kind of-- I don't want to say heavy set, he's more of a round of shape. You wouldn't think this guy has such a presence, but he does, but he was just super, super nice. He said, "All right, son, I get that. I appreciate you taking an initiative. But I'm going to send you somewhere where you could fight every single night." I said, "Well, where is that?" He said, "I'm going to send you to the working cell block. That's where we have our worst of our worst, and somebody's going to be--" You know what, he would curse sometimes. As religious as he was, and he probably did say ass-- when he got mad, he'd curse. But he said, "I'm going to send you back there." And believe me, I passed this down to all the guys I trained over the years. I would tell them, I say, "Look, you don't have to go out of your way put your hands on somebody to look for shit because there's enough assholes out there that are legitimately going to give you a reason to fight them, when you go to arrest them or whatever." He said, "I'm to going put you back there." And I did it, and I rose up as a superstar. And every time he'd see me, he'd say, "How are you doing, Sergeant Overton?" Jim: Love that story, and I'm sure you've got several. And what we're going to do, folks, is this is going to be a docuseries. So, this is going to be three episodes. In the third episode, we're going to have Kelly Jennings, who also has some experience with Burl Cain on the show. And it's going to be storytelling time with Woody and Kelly. And they're going to tell some stories that are just fire.Woody: We need to promote that.Jim: Yeah.Woody: The last episode is going to be The True Stories.Jim: The True Stories. Woody: From Woody-Jim: From Woody. [chuckles] Woody: -and female Woody.[chuckles] Jim: Yeah. You can't get no better than that. Look, I got the best seat in the house, and I'm going to be kind of the moderator of what will be an amazing episode coming up just in a couple of weeks. We're going to move on. Look, Warden Cain, he became an absolute star. He made a name for himself. And of course, he had a brother that was in politics. And so, they knew the Cain name. And in 1995, the warden of Angola, a guy by the name of John Whitley, who at some point we're going to do a story on, but John Whitley was retiring. And so, secretary at that time was Richard Stalder. Woody: And he was the head of the Department of Corrections when I was there also. Jim: That secretary he is kind of like who is the boss of the wardens.Woody: He's the boss of all the prisons. Jim: Yeah. Outside of the governor, he is the top person in the prison system. And he announces the new warden will be the warden at that time of DCI, which was Burl Cain. Now, you may be surprised to know something. Burl Cain did not want that job. [laughs] Woody: Yeah. And that's because he knew that wardens in Angola didn't last long.Jim: That's right. Woody: I think they averaged just over five years of service because Angola was so bad, y'all, and somebody had to be the scapegoat for the bad things that happened. But he wasn't left much of a choice. He had the most experience of any warden in the state of Louisiana with his 14 years at DCI. So, he took it.Jim: Secretary Stalder just basically said, "You're going to be the warden of Angola."Woody: When he took it, I tell you, it was truly bloody Angola, and they were under all this federal scrutiny and everything else. And he's like, "Mm, don't want to do it." I'm sure it was a challenge to him, but he didn't want to lose what he had going on.Jim: No. You're 14 years at one place, you have a system, it's working. You're looked at as a rockstar in the system, and now you're being sent another challenge. You're comfortable. You don't want to have to do that. But also, Angola had some issues. There were 300 attacks on the staff and 766 inmate-on-inmate assaults, half of which were--Woody: That was in one year, the year before he went there. And this was right around when I was getting out of corrections, he left right after I left DCI. And he went up there but, fuck, I knew about it. I mean, you heard about it. It didn't make the news every day, but it made the correctional officer grapevine. It was bad shit.Jim: Yeah. I remember when he was announced as the warden of Angola, and if you were from the state of Louisiana, I mean, that was big news. Big news. Side note to that, this may or may not seem out of order, but I'm going to mention it now. He was actually still living at DCI throughout-- Wardens typically live at the prison they're at.Woody: They have very nice homes that are provided to them by the state at no cost. It's part of your salary, and it's maintained by the convicts and all that. He took the job. But shit, nobody wants to move-- especially back then, wants to move to Angola, not even on the B-Line, because it's so fucking far away. I knew his wife at the time, and then he was there, and he's got kids and the whole nine yards.Jim: Well, and you may wonder who took his place at DCI. Well, Jimmy Le Blanc took his place there. They were good friends. Woody: Jimmy was an underwarden to Burl at the time. And so basically, Burl Cain tapped him to take it over. Jim: Right. And he made a deal with him. He said, "Look, take it over. I think you would be a great replacement for me, but I ain't moving out of my house." [laughs] He literally said that. And Jimmy Le Blanc was okay with that. In the state of Louisiana, they gave Jimmy Le Blanc kind of a stipend for the home he was already living in, because that's considered a perk. It's a huge perk. Woody: It's a big part of your salary. And I'm sure you have it in here, Jim, that when Stalder retired, Jim Le Blanc ultimately became the head of the corrections--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, we'll be getting into that. But just to finish that point up, Cain lived at DCI, y'all until 1999. And what prompted him to actually leave was the murder of Captain David Knapps in Angola. And we'll get into that in the second episode. Woody: Captain David Knapps was a multi-generational correctional officer, and he lived on the B-Line. And that's all he ever knew. His father done and his grandfather done, his brothers and everybody-- he lived there. And he was brutally murdered in '99 during an attempted prison escape. And we're going to cover that. Ultimately, he's a superhero, but Burl would have been his boss for almost five years at that time.One thing I'm going to tell you about Burl Cain, is as any good leader in any good spot, if your people take care of you, you damn well going to take care of your people. And you're going to know who they are, and you're going to promote them up and everything because, unfortunately, and I've said this many times, and I felt this, I truly did believe this, some of the people that you worked with in corrections were shittier than the convicts. I think that plays into the whole civil service thing, because you can't fire them, you can't make them work, and they knew the rulebooks and all that, but absolutely 95% of them were the best people in the world. But Burl knew who were his rising stars and who would run whatever, and David Knapps was one of them. Jim: Look, being a good leader, one of the best attributes you can have is being able to spot other good leaders.Woody: And I've had so many, and I'm telling you, I think he is probably one of the best leaders I've ever had. And I'm talking about my military career, my police career, my corrections career, whatever. Jim: Yeah, you've been around a lot of them.Woody: And I took a lot of his leadership skills from him. Like that day when I was trouble in his office, I mean, if I'd have been a turd, he'd have fired me. But no, he gave me freedom to run. And he knew I was going to handle my business.Jim: Yeah. So, imagine you're Burl Cain, it's 1995, February, and you're now in charge of the largest maximum-security prison in America. 18,000 acres of sheer intimidation.Woody: And the worst of the worst.Jim: And the worst of the worst.Woody: I would put those guys up there against any convict in the world as far as the horrificness of the crimes, etc. Jim: So, warden gets there, and one of the first things he did was he outlines his philosophy to the inmates, and I'm going to quote him here. He said, "Your dorm is like a city or a community. The beds and houses along that are the street, with the street being the aisle itself. So, three beds down is like saying three houses down. You should visit your neighbors." Woody: He'd actually say that, yeah. Jim: "Counsel your neighbors and be concerned for each other. Keep your city free from drugs and violence. And don't curse. Once you start cursing each other, violence is sure to follow." That was his philosophy. Woody: Absolute genius. And do you know that to this day that's what they call their bunks and stuff as their houses? Jim: Yeah. Well, it essentially is.Woody: And the aisles, because these big long aisles that run in between rows of bunks and they call them their streets. Jim: That's their streets. Woody: Isn't that crazy? Jim: It is. Woody: I never knew Burl was the one that coined that phrase. Jim: Yeah. And so, I'm going to tell you a quick story here, Woody and I both, and this is about when he went to Angola, he had to deal with one thing he didn't have to really deal with at DCI, and that was executions. I don't care who you are, I don't care how blessed you are to deal with certain things, that's hard for anybody.Woody: And keeping in mind that Burl-- when I knew him, as far as I know to this day, he's a very strong Christian man. Jim: Absolutely. His first experience with that was with an inmate by the name of Thomas Ward. And this would play probably-- I bet, if Burl was sitting across from us, and Warden Cain, if you'd ever like to sit across from us, we'd love to have you. I've tried to reach out to your guy. But if he was sitting across from us, he'd probably say this changed him more than anything else he's ever done.It was just after midnight, Warden Cain found himself alone. He was in the death chamber with Thomas Ward. And without one word, Woody, he lifts his hand, he gives a thumbs down signal, which he would later say he hated. He hated doing that. It did not feel right to him, but it was a signal that was common to give to the executioner. This was lethal injection. So, when you would issue that lethal dose, he would give that thumbs down signal. The lethal dose gets administered, and six minutes later, Ward was dead. It was Cain's first execution.Now, immediately, Cain began to regret that signal, as I told you. His uneasiness, it started to grow. He felt guilty because he never found out Ward's spiritual condition that night or before. He just basically ordered the lethal dose to be administered. Warden Cain actually was quoted as saying, "He didn't utter a word as we strapped him to the gurney. When the time came to ask him if he had anything to say, he didn't answer. He just choked up." The execution took place only three months, y'all, after Cain took over as warden and completely spearheaded the change that we're about to tell you in that prison.Woody: So, real quick, let's go back to that. We've talked about executions before on the show, but now in the execution chamber, the warden is the one that's in there, and they have to read the death warrant. But giving that thumbs down, he didn't know what he was going to feel. It's the first time he ever basically legally murdered someone, and that's it. But I know as a Christian man, he just saw somebody being murdered, even though it's legal murder. He just saw the state of Louisiana take a human being's life, and he knows that he's not in there for being a choir boy, but as a Christian, he's thinking, "Mm, you know what? I should have talked to him. And even if he told me, 'Go to hell, I don't believe in Jesus,' I'd have done my job as a Christian to try to spread the word, to give him a chance to call on Jesus to repent." Jim: That's right. And he had a conversation with his mother, Woody, after this. It bothered him that much. And his mom said, "You need to do everything you can to get those guys spiritually ready to meet the Lord, because you're going to have to answer for that."Woody: Because--[crosstalk] Jim: Yeah, me too.Woody: When you have that opportunity, and so very few people do, to ever have an opportunity to talk to someone that you know is about to die, and even like I said, even if they reject you, you don't take that opportunity, you have to answer for it. Jim: You're going to have to answer for it, and it bothered him. Literally, this was the start, y'all, and we can't even dictate into words how huge this is. But this was the start of a change at Angola. Not to sound like Donald Trump, but like nothing you've ever seen. Just unbelievable. He started instituting what he called, and this was another phrase that he coined, "cultural change." The first thing he did, and thank God, Woody was not working there at this time.Woody: Right. I'd have been damn sure been in trouble for it.Jim: He banned cursing by guards and inmates. Now, you can only control that so much, but it was definitely frowned upon. I think that's why he banned it. Woody: Actually, they put it in the rulebook after that that you can't curse. Jim: Yeah. And he believed that cursing led to other things. It wasn't the curse word itself. Now, as Woody said, he said one every now and then, but it was when it was appropriate. Woody: I said it, I'm not going to lie. [laughter] Woody: What he's talking about-- I got to interject again. Jim: Sure. Woody: What he's talking about is, I would carry this later on. When I talk to the younger guys and say, "Listen, most of the time when you're dealing with people, you're dealing with them on their worst day. They're going to be upset, they're going to be screaming, they're going to be cursing. So, you should start out nice as can be." Look, when I was in the street, unless we were fighting or something, we didn't curse people. Will Graves [unintelligible 00:43:37] would have hung your ass or any department I work for. I said, "You always start out low and treat them super kind, even if they're cursing you and berating you, start out low, because then if you need to jump up and escalate, they'll be surprised."But one person cursing at another one, it's not going to end well usually. Especially between men, and one of them has never had any respect for authority in their entire life, and they hate you as a correctional officer. What is he doing with this just simple thing? By taking out curse words or trying to take out curse words, he is making a mutual level of respect. You take that off, that gasoline that can do no good. Somebody's going to feel degraded, somebody's going to be pissed off, say, "Fuck you, Jim Chapman. You're a dick," where's it going from there? Jim: That's right. Fisticuff. Woody: If you give me a direct verbal order, and I'm like, "Yessir." Then, I can go write you up. There's other ways to handle it. So, that was genius on Burl's part.Jim: It really was. And he also instituted cleanliness, like we told you earlier, he had this conversation with the inmates where he said, "This is your house. Keep your house clean. Encourage your neighbors to keep their house clean. Cut your grass." Woody: Most of them come from lifestyles that they never had anything clean. They lived in the hoods, they were raised around cursing, they had no respect for anything. And he's just trying to give them the base things. Just because you're in prison, doesn't mean you're not living. Jim: That's right. And he started inviting kind of the outside world. Look, let me tell y'all real quick. One of the hardest things to do for me in preparation for these shows is research. And why is that? Because we're dealing with a prison where not a lot gets out, for obvious reasons and I get it, but it requires an enormous amount of work to dig up some of this stuff because it just doesn't get out. He, at the beginning, was very open with inviting people into the prison, letting them see-- look, Barbara Walters, which we'll tell you a story on later, came into the prison and actually did I think it was a 2020 special on the executions that take place there. So it was a huge thing on that front. But his message initially was, "We don't have anything to hide, and we want to let people in here, see what we're doing to change what is in a horrible situation."Woody: Yeah. "Not that we're perfect by far, but we're not hiding anything." The culture in the past was, shit, loose lips sink ships. What happens in Angola, dies in Angola. Jim: So, I know y'all are ready for something here. And that is what was one of the more historic changes that he made right off the bat, well, we got it for you. One of the first, maybe one of the most controversial changes that he made, but this is Burl Cain genius right here. So, he's sitting there-- I'm assuming he's sitting at his desk one morning, this is how I'm picturing it. And he says, "We got a problem. Our death row inmates, most of them can't read and they can't write." It might surprise y'all to know that they didn't offer any sort of education, even as simple as reading and writing to death row inmates.Woody: They just locked them up. Jim: Yeah. So, you might say to yourself, "Well, who cares?" Burl Cain cared. And the reason he cared was not-- these are condemned men, so they're probably not getting out. Although we have done many stories with you guys where people were exonerated and didn't do it. So, there are those situations. But his thing was, if they can't read and they can't write, especially if they can't read, they can't read the Bible. That was a problem for him. He didn't like that.Woody: That's exactly right.Jim: And so, it was the first change he made, was he said, "We're going to offer education to our death row inmates." That's huge, Woody Overton. Woody: That's huge. Like you said, most of them had never had any kind of education. Right? Jim: Right. Woody: Ultimately, y'all, during this time, the death penalty put on hold and stuff like that, years later and stuff. But what do you give somebody who's locked up 23 hours a day and then they're all by themselves? That's where people go crazy and then they got nothing to do, they didn't have TVs, they didn't have all this stuff. So, he gives them, we say the word "hope," not hope that they're going to live, but he gives them something to do besides sit there and rot. Jim: That's right. Woody: And if you're going to sit there and rot, if the Bible is the only book you can read, maybe you glean something from it. And it goes back to what his mama said, you got to give them the opportunity. Jim: You got to give them the opportunity. And that's just what he did. It was controversial. Look, there were people screaming, "Why are we spending money to educate death roommates?" And yes, most of them did horrible things. But his thought process was, the way he felt about it, "I'm not only in charge of their imprisonment, I'm in charge of their soul. And this is between me and God and what I am doing to try to help these men." And that's the way he thought. And the prisoners themselves really started to take note. This guy seems like he cares. I mean, it was probably an absolute shock to them. Woody: He didn't judge them for what-- And I got this from his time too, and he told me this. He said, "Your job is not to punish them. Your job is to keep them safe and keep the public safe from them escaping. They're doing their time for their crime. Your job is not to punish. You treat them like a human being." And nobody had ever done that. Jim: Nobody had ever done that. He does another historical thing right after that, and that is, he was the first warden to invite, and in this case, it was the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, to come in. And basically, they had like a satellite seminary right there at Angola. For those of you that don't know what they do, they offer degrees in the field of seminary so you can become an ordained minister.Woody: Basically, it's like a Bible college.Jim: Yeah. This was genius. I cannot stress enough how genius this was, because in his long-term vision and if anybody can say anything about Burl Cain, he had vision. In his long-term vision, he saw inmates changing other inmates through God. And that's what was missing in prisons, in his opinion. That was probably, looking back on it, one of the most successful programs he ever had. Those graduates, they would be allowed to travel, not only to other prisons in Louisiana, but eventually all over the country. They were going all over the country speaking at these other prisons, and he called that imposing morality. Woody: And back to you, now, you get a degree from a college, then you have a little bit more self-worth. And these college studies aren't free. They were funded by outside donations. And Angola offered a four-year college degree in ministry, including instructions in Greek and Hebrew, as well as lessons on how to preach.Jim: Yeah. And it really changed the lives of not only these inmates themselves and gave them self-worth, but it enabled them to go out and then work to change others. Woody: And this gives me the bumps again, if you're doing that and you get self-worth for the first time in your life, guess what you're not doing? You're not raping and killing. Inside the prison, there's still raping and killing.Jim: Mainly hit it right on the head. Woody: Look, we're going to talk about Christianity and God and all this stuff a lot during this series, but here's the deal. I don't care what you believe in. And there certainly are convicts at Angola that were like, "Fuck you, I don't believe in anything. I'm an atheist," whatever. And that's fine too. But they were given an opportunity because Burl was raised that way. Jim: That's right. And he knew that the principles in religion were sound things that would keep people out of trouble.Woody: He also knew Angola was full of the darkness. He was trying to shine a little light and make the darkness back up. Jim: That's right. So, he started thinking about this and looking at the things that were missing from Angola. This became pretty successful. And he knew that work was or learning to work was critical in rehabilitation. Many of the inmates in Angola, y'all, they had never learned to work. They basically grew up in life, they robbed, they raped, they pillaged, and they murdered to survive. So, he instilled what he called meaningful work. Woody: Well, yeah, and let me tell you this, another famous Burl Cain saying, when you get to prison, he introduced himself and he said, "Welcome to the Department of Corrections. You're here for however long you've been sentenced. We're not here to punish you. We're here to make you secure. But you're sentenced to hard labor. Religion is an option. You'll have that opportunity while you're here to get religion, but work is not. You're going to work every day, and everybody has a job." And that goes back to him teaching the basics. Like I said, most of them never even knew how to work. They weren't raised like-- my daddy raised me, and your daddy raised you with a good work ethic. Jim: That's right. And it also gave them that pride that they were seeking, obviously, teaching these inmates to work. And he wasn't done yet. And this is probably-- well, it definitely is another part of his vision in those early days. And that was he founded a program in Angola called Malachi Dads. He did this with some inmates who came to him. Now, Warden Cain, he took note, y'all, of the fact that almost all convicts on Angola grew up in a broken home with the father typically being absent. Look, that's at any prison in the country, overall, it is not even close. Woody: It's not something we're making of. Jim: It's an issue.Woody: We're not people we're picking on or whatever. It's just the way it is. Jim: Yeah, I mean, you're talking 6000 inmates and most of them were fathers, but they came from broken homes. And so, it didn't take a genius for Warden Cain to figure out maybe that's part of the problem. Now, you can't fix the people that are in there. They can't be at home with their kids, they're in prison. But this program--Woody: And they're there in prison for the worst. [crosstalk] Jim: The worst of the worst. So, he knew that there's kids out there and they're now growing up without a father because he's in prison.Woody: Well, also, I'm going to interrupt you again, there are generational prisoners in there. There are fathers and whose sons, or grandfathers, or dads whose sons murder and grew up because it's the only thing they ever knew, right? Jim: Absolutely. Woody: And they got sent to Angola. I'm telling you, there's generational. Their grandson, the oldest one now, who's old, old timer in Angola whose son is down now for life of murder, that guy's son would come in for murder. He's looking this and he's like--Jim: It's a pattern. Woody: Oh, yeah. It's proven. And you're right, him being a forward genius thinker, he's like, "Mm, you know what? Why wouldn't I try this? Why wouldn't I try? If I can make a change in one person's life, it'd be something special." And nobody had ever done what you're about to tell about.Jim: That's right. He gets with about, let's say, these six trusted inmates that he had that they were all graduates of this seminary. And he says, "Do y'all see the same problem I do?" And they said, "Not only do we see the problem, we can institute a program where we teach other inmates how to be fathers behind bars." It's possible. Look, I got chill bumps again. They form what they call Malachi Dads. Basically, this is one of the best programs he ever instituted. And it was a program in which fathers that were incarcerated learned how to parent their kids from inside of prison. We're going to play you a clip real quick. These are the inmate founders of Malachi Dads. And they're discussing a little bit about Warden Cain and a lot about that program. We're going to play that right now. [video recording of Malachi Dads]Ron: My name is Ron Hickson. I've been incarcerated for 25 years. I'm serving life sentence for second-degree murder. Darryl: My name is Darryl Waters. I'm from Gibson, Louisiana, and I was sentenced for second-degree murder in 1992. George: My name is George Gilliam. I am from New Orleans. I'm currently serving a life sentence for a second-degree murder. We discovered in 2006 that a child of an incarcerated father had a 70% likelihood to come to prison and so we discovered those statistics and God gave us favor and that became Malachi Dads. Just because you're locked up in prison, that does not give you the right to not still be a father. Healthy people, who have a heart that's healed, who have a soul that's whole, they want to help, they want to give back. And that's what we do every day. Interviewer: Why do you think violence has come down in Angola?Inmate: When Warden Cain came on the scene, what he did was open up the door of opportunity. He was able to see, "If I can get these guys to start coming out to success because what success do, it change the way you think." If I can achieve something, I feel better about myself. [clip ends]Woody: Wow. Super. There's so much to be said, y'all. I'm going to do one more part that is-- maybe I don't want to say shows a harsher side, because it's not a harsher side, but it shows the business side of Burl. Jim: And a good story.Woody: He's all about trying to shine the light in the darkness and see what kind of positive things can come about it. But he's also all about, it's his prison and who's going to rule it. But listen to this story. This is crazy. And Jim researched this, and I had never-- believe it or not, I had never even heard of this. But as we told you many times on the show, Angola is huge. It's sprawling over 18,000 acres. And that's mostly-- the camps are spread out. It's mostly agriculture, big fields, Tunica Hills, Mississippi River, shit ton of wildlife. So one day, one of the convicts saw a huge 400-pound black bear on the property, and they freaked out and they're like, "Holy shit." Most of these guys are city boys, etc. Jim: They don't like the wolfdogs.Woody: Right. Until two years ago, I had never seen a bear in the state of Louisiana. But in Jackson, where DCI was, the first restaurant I've worked at was called Bear Corners. Back in the day, black bears were preliminary in the area. And now, they're coming back because of strict hunting ban, etc. But you got this mass 18,000 acres, and as rare as they are, there's a bear.Jim: In the middle of the prison.Woody: Massive black bear living in the middle of Angola. And you know what Burl thought? Jim: [laughs] [crosstalk] Woody: You know what? Kind of scared me, And I know it scared them because they came running to me. And he's like, "That's just extra security."[laughter]Jim: That's exactly how he said it. Woody: And I'll quote him. He said, "I love that bear being right where it is. And I tell you what, none of our inmates are going to try to get out after dark and wander around when they might run into a big old bear. It's like having another guard at no cost to the taxpayer." He was about business. We keep talking about all these good things that he's doing, let me tell you something, and we'll talk about it in later episodes in the series. I've seen it, that's one dude you don't want to see mad. And it's one dude that knows his business, right? Jim: That's right. Woody: Anyway, the bear was first seen by an inmate crossing the road in the prison. And it was taking a stroll near the center of prison, where about five and a half square miles were mostly untouched piney woods, y'all. And the prison workers measured the bear's footprints, which were six inches in diameter. Now, every inch that they can measure equals 75 pounds. The biologists have figured this out. So, that made that bear about 450 pounds. And Cain said, the wildlife people told us they think it's a big female they've been tracking for a while. And Warden Cain estimated at the time that 8 to 10 bears lived on that 18,000 acres. Jim: Holy crap. Woody: You better believe he promoted the shit out. Jim: Oh, yeah, I was about to say that. He told every inmate.Woody: When they come in, "Hey, if you out in the field, you see a bear, you ain't going to be the fast. You just got to be fast from one of the other convicts. We might not shoot you if you're running from the bear, but if you go out there at night, that bear is hungry. Bears got to eat." Jim: Y'all, we're just getting started. Woody: Yeah, just getting started. Jim: But we got to cut this one off. We've gone over an hour. Woody: Still though, I'm going to say it again, wait until you hear-- we talked a lot about-Jim: Oh, my God, we ain't scratched the surface.Woody: -the positive side today, which is something. But I'm going to tell you something, tough dude, bruh. There's a reason he lasted as long as he lasted and is still doing what he does. But it's the totality of circumstances of the man, which to me makes him a legend. Jim: Just to give you a little sauce for what you can look forward to the next episode, we're going to talk about a little bit about Billy Cannon and how Burl Cain was instrumental in bringing him into Angola. We're going to talk about Hurricane Katrina and the effect that that had on Angola prison. Y'all going to love that story. Look, this is stuff you cannot find anywhere else. Woody: We're going to talk about some executions. Jim: Yeah, how about his second execution, different than the first, right? Woody: And then what happened following after that. Just a whole--Jim: Captain Knapps. Woody: Captain David Knapps.Jim: A bunch more to bring you. Woody: Can't wait to bring you. And we appreciate and love each and every one of y'all. Jim: Yeah. Thank y'all for-Woody: Patreon members-Jim: -everything. Woody: -you rock. Our Patreon members, the show couldn't run without you. We appreciate y'all so much. Y'all, look, if you want to be a patron member, go to patreon.com/bloodyangola. Jim: We've got a bonus episode coming next week. So, what we're going to do next week when we record our second episode of the story of Burl Cain, we're also going to record our bonus episode just for patron members. And what it's going to be on, y'all, is we released the first episode to the general public, it was on executions and we kind of told a little bit of the story and it was great. We've got more for you, but it's only going to be for patrons, that second one, it's a good one. Woody: Y'all, we have all the different tier levels with all the different benefits. And I'm telling you right now, I've been doing this over five years, podcasting, and Real Life Real Crime original probably doesn't have as many patron episodes locked up as [crosstalk] of Bloody Angola. Jim: We got a ton of it. That's right. Woody: If you like Bloody Angola, go subscribe. If you can't be a patron member, we love you just as much. Jim: And transcripts. People love the transcripts. We've got all of our episodes transcribed on Patreon for some of the tiers, and these are not transcriptions, y'all, that are like the AI versions. This is actually someone sitting down typing because our southern accents don't cross over too well. [laughs] Woody: [crosstalk] Jim: Unfortunately, it's horrible. Woody: Look, we have merchandise. People love the shirts and--Jim: Hats. Woody: What about the Bloody Angola wine? Jim: Oh, yeah. We got limited wine in there for you, ladies.Woody: And that's good stuff. We sold out of at the live shows. But anyway, y'all, please share us-Jim: Review us.Woody: -like us and leave us a review if you're so inclined. And we appreciate you and love you. And wait until you hear what's coming next. Jim: Oh, yeah. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making. Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace. 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Death Chamber Part 2

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 1970 54:07

In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, We continue to cover the stories of those inmates eventually executed at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, from the crimes to their final walk.#Louisianastateprison #AngolaPrison #BloodyAngola #TrueCrime #Podcast #WoodyOverton #Podcasts #Deathchamberpart2 #deathchamber #Execution #ConvictOur Sponsors for this episode have a great deal for you!GET 16 FREE MEALS PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!Full Transcript Death Chamber Part 2[Bloody Angola theme]Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Bloody- Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The complete story of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Thank y'all for listening and liking and sharing. Please continue to do so. Leave us a review wherever you listen up in your podcast. And Patreon members, we appreciate y'all, you rock. Thank you for your continued support. This one, we're going back to one that got a whole lot of interest and-- [crosstalk]Jim: People loved it.Woody: Well, I love it.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I guess, you're twisted y'all, right? We're going to tell you about- Jim: Death chamber.Woody: -death chamber stuff.Jim: Yeah, Part 2.Woody: Execution. Yeah, Death Chamber Part due. Jim: Part duh.Woody: Duh.Jim: Yeah. So, we're going to get into it and what we do with these folks-- If you hadn't listened yet, you can go back and listen to Death Chamber Part 1. The good thing about these is we cover just individual convicts that were executed at Angola. We tell just a little synopsis of their crime, and they got some really interesting final words in there for these guys.Woody: [crosstalk] -things like that.Jim: People just loved it the first time, so we're going to continue with it. I'll start out with our first convict up for, I guess, grabs today, and that is Leslie Lowenfield. Leslie Lowenfield was executed in 1988, and he rode the lightning.Woody: Yeah, he graduated-- [crosstalk] Jim: Electrocuted. Gruesome Gertie. Woody: Gruesome Gertie.Jim: He had a seat in that chair. And to tell you a little bit about this guy, he was a native of Guyana. He came to Louisiana from Canada in 1981, and he met his primary victim, which was a lady named Sheila Thomas.Woody: I think he's well-traveled. I think Guyana is like in Africa or somewhere.Jim: Yeah, then he goes to Canada.Woody: And then he comes to south, to Louisiana.Jim: He figured it out. He figured out the USA was where he wanted to be, I guess. And we didn't want him here after--Woody: To make [crosstalk] Gruesome Gertie.Jim: Yeah. Sheila Thomas was his primary victim. She was a deputy sheriff in JeffersonParish, Louisiana,-Woody: JP. Yeah.Jim: -which is around the New Orleans area.Woody: Actually, it's one of the largest parishes geographically, because it expands all the way around Orleans, all the way down to Grand Isle. Did you know Grand Isle is in Jefferson Parish?Jim: I did not.Woody: Absolutely. There it cut across all that marsh and everything else, land wise,Tangipahoa is the longest parish in the state. North and south, I think JP is the biggest. Jim: Interesting. I didn't know Tangi was the longest.Woody: Yeah, Tangi is longest state north and south. Very longest parish--[crosstalk]Jim: Very interesting. So, Sheila Thomas was a deputy sheriff. And Ms. Thomas, along with her daughter, young daughter, who was Shantel Osborne moved in with Lowenfield in the summer of 1981. So, you can already see. Uh-oh.Woody: Right.Jim: Lowenfield and Ms. Thomas, they lived together off and on for about a year. During that year, Ms. Thomas left Lowenfield on three separate occasions and returned to live with her mother. So, they're probably fighting, having arguments.Woody: Off and on. Went off and on.Jim: Yeah. Lowenfield became increasingly bitter following each separation. So, every timeshe would leave, he would get more and more pissed.Woody: Right.Jim: When Ms. Thomas returned to her mother's home for the last time, he repeatedly threatened and harassed Ms. Thomas and her mother, victim, Myrtle Griffin. In the late afternoon of August 30th, 1982, Owen Griffin, Sheila Thomas' stepfather, was in a vacant lot near his home in Marrero, which is like an outskirts of New Orleans. He was playing cards with friends. Owen Griffin, all of a sudden, hears shots ring out from their home. He runs to the house, rushed inside, where more shots were fired. When police arrived, they found five bodies sprawled about the living area of the house, they found the bodies of Sheila Thomas, her four-year old daughter Shantel, Owen Griffin, his wife Myrtle Griffin,Woody: Wow.Jim: -and Carl Osborne, the father of Shantel. All of the victims had sustained multiple gunshot wounds, each had been shot in the head at close range.Woody: That's crazy. Well, think about that last seconds when you're sitting there and whatever pops off and he shoots the first one. You're like, "What the f--?" And then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.Jim: Just blasting--[crosstalk]Woody: You're just sitting there. You know, I'm sure someone trying to scramble and getaway, but he's close enough to shoot them in the head. Jim: No doubt about it.Woody: No mercy. Animal.Jim: No mercy, and total animal. And he goes to court, gets convicted, gets sentenced to death. And eventually, as a matter of fact, in 1988, he does get executed. His final statement included remarks directed at his two attorneys, Wayne Walker and John Craft, who had worked on his trial and appeal. His last words were, "I hope you feel satisfied. Don't give up on me. Although my life will be over tonight, because the one responsible is out there."Woody: Wow.Jim: Yeah. Deny it to the end. "There is no reason to hold anything against me. And the rest who would lie when I'm gone, the body will be gone, but the spirit will live on. Mr. Walker and John Craft, your job was more important than my life. I hope you feel satisfied. Thank you to all of you, and peace."Woody: Did he say peace?Jim: He said peace. That was his final words.Woody: Peace-- [crosstalk]Jim: How dare he use the word.Woody: Right. Road to hell. Yeah.Jim: [chuckles] Yeah.Woody: [crosstalk] -use a moniker.Jim: But here's an interesting thing about this entire case. Dale Brown, the head basketball coach at that time, actually attended his execution.Woody: Oh, I didn't know that.Jim: They had been corresponding since Dale Brown toured Angola years earlier with the LSU basketball team actually became friends, and he attended that execution. I found that very interesting.Woody: Wow. That's crazy. So, that was the real deal execution. Gruesome Gertie. I got to sit in probably around that same time, and the chair would not, obviously, get executed, but think about the difference between what they do now. They just put him asleep, in a Gruesome Gertie,-Jim: Oh, yeah.Woody: -they strap you in and you about to ride, "rahhh." Jim: Yeah, lights.Woody: Yeah, lights in. And off-on. rahhh. They don't just hit him once. They did it like, three or four to five times. So, fuck him, and he got what he deserved.Jim: Yeah. And don't use our peace anymore. [laughs]Woody: Yeah. Never use the peace. Tell the devil peace, son of a bitch. Jim: That's right.Woody: All right. I'm going to take you to a guy named Timothy Baldwin. And the date of the murder was April the 4th, 1978. He killed a lady named Mary James Peters. Now, what's unusual about this killing one person and getting a death penalty? Well, Mary James Peters was 85 years old. That's bad, right?Jim: Yeah. Elderly.Woody: But she was blind.Jim: Oh, my God. That's horrible.Woody: He beat her to death with a skillet, a stool, a small television, and a telephone. You would think, me being retired from, say police, I would have all these pronunciations correctly, but I'm going to say this one wrong, because every time I say it, somebody corrects me. But I say Ouachita Parish, Louisiana, which is, y'all, is all the way up northeast in Louisiana. Great fishing and hunting. He was electrocuted in Louisiana on September 10th, 1984. Let me tell you about the case.Timothy Baldwin, and his wife Rita, and their seven children were neighbors of Mary James Peters in West Monroe, Louisiana. Again, y'all, that's way northeast Louisiana. He was roommates with them from 1971 until 1977. Mrs. Peters was godmother to their youngest, Russell. During the latter part of their stay in West Monroe, William Odell Jones also resided with the Baldwins. Okay.The group went to Bossier City for six months, and now, y'all, Bossier City is on the other end of the north part of state by Shreveport. All right, so probably about a three-hour drive. The group went to Bossier City for six months and then moved to Ohio. The oldest daughter, Michelle, remained in West Monroe with one brother. A second son entered the service. Marilyn Hampton and her three daughters stayed with the Baldwins in Ohio. Marilyn, Timothy Baldwin, and her children then left, accompanied by Jones. Baldwin and Jones worked together in the business of installing aluminum siding. After the departure of her husband, Rita Baldwin got into financial difficulties and was picked up on bad check charges. Her four younger children went to live with Michelle in West Monroe. Meanwhile, Timothy Baldwin, our bad guy, Jones, Marilyn Hampton and her three children led an itinerant existence. Their last means of transportation was a 1978 black Ford van which had been rented in Tampa, Florida.On April 4th, 1978, Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin drove the van to West Monroe. Jones and the children stayed at a cabin in Holmes State Park, near Jackson, Mississippi. Jackson, Mississippi is not that far. Ouachita, however you want to say it in the Monroe is pretty much on the Mississippi, Louisiana. And just north of that is the Arkansas line. So, about an hour from there to Jackson. So, Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton visited Michelle's apartment in West Monroe but left there around 8:00 PM. Shortly thereafter, a van was seen parked in front of Mrs. Peters' house. A man and woman were observed leaving the residence between 10:00 PM and 11:00 PM. Shortly before their departure, passersby saw and heard indications that someone in the Peters' home was being beaten.Baldwin testified in his own behalf and admitted that he and Marilyn visited Mrs. Peters that evening but denied the murder. Mrs. Peters, who was 85 years old, was beaten with various things, among them a skillet, a stool, and a telephone.Jim: Oh, my God, and this is a blind woman. Woody: Right.Jim: She doesn't even know it's coming at. Woody: Right. Yeah.Jim: Poor. Damn.Woody: That's unimaginable, right? Jim: Poor lady. Argh.Woody: Think about the one I had Ms. [unintelligible [00:12:39] had the 57 blows. It was from a base and a Coke bottle, but she was on a walker and stuff. But at least she could see it coming, yeah?Jim: Yeah, that's awful.Woody: Anyway, she remained on the kitchen floor overnight and was discovered the next morning shortly before noon by an employee of the Ouachita Council Meals on Wheels, who was bringing her noon meal. Although helpless and incoherent, Mrs. Peters tried to defend herself against the police officers and the ambulance attendant who took her to the hospital.Jim: Poor woman, man.Woody: She doesn't know who they are. Jim: Yeah.Woody: Dr. A. B. Gregory saw her in the emergency room around 12:30 PM on April 5th, 1978, and found her in a semi-comatose. Her left cheekbone and jawbone were shattered. She had brain damage from multiple contusions and lacerations. According to Dr. Gregory, Mrs. Peters could not communicate rationally. She died of the injuries the following day. Dr. Frank Chin, who performed the autopsy, attributed her death to massive cerebral hemorrhage and swelling, secondary to external head injuries. So, brain bleeds ultimately killed her and it didn't kill her instantly. Can you imagine that, living there, laying there on the floor all night?Timothy Baldwin and Marilyn Hampton were subsequently located in El Dorado, Arkansas. Remember, y'all told you, Arkansas is just north. Timothy Baldwin signed consents for the search of their motel room and the van. Two blue bank bags, one empty and one containing savings bonds and certificates of deposit payable to Mary James, were found in the van. Jones, to whom Marilyn Hampton and Timothy Baldwin had made statements both before and after the crime, helped police officers locate a safe that had belonged to the victim in the LaFourche Canal in West Monroe. Baldwin's finger and palm prints were found on various items in the Peters' home, a cigarette lighter, a television set, and a coffee cup.Baldwin was found guilty, and the jury did what they should have. They recommend the death sentence. So, Timothy George Baldwin was executed on September 10th, 1984. Baldwin was convicted of beaten to death the 85-year-old blind woman, Mary James Peters. And Peters, who was a former neighbor of Baldwin's and the godmother's of his youngestchild, was beaten with everything I told y'all about. Baldwin maintained his innocence and gave this final statement. He said, "I've always tried to be a good sport when I've lost something, and I see no reason not to leave this world with the same policy. After all, it was a hell of a battle. I therefore congratulate all those who have tried so hard to murder me. I definitely have to give them credit as it takes a very special kind of person to murder an innocent man and still be able to live with themselves."Jim: Victim [unintelligible [00:15:37], huh? Woody: Burning in hell.Jim: Yeah.Woody: I'm going to tell you something. Jim: Hella jail as usual.Woody: Hella jail. But you go through all these years, he sat on death row for shorter time than they do now. You know, you're strapped down and that's going to be your last words. I'm thinking about trying to find me some Jesus.Jim: Amen.Woody: Even if I don't believe them and be like, "Oh, Lord, if you could please forgive me ifyou're really there and bring me home." But he's saying, "Mm, I didn't do it."Jim: What a horrible human. Wow. Yeah, we're getting real on this one. Look, these guys, they were executed. So, you're going to hear some disturbing stuff, but we're real with this stuff.Woody: Executed for a reason.Jim: That's right. I'm going to tell you about Sterling Rault. And Sterling Rault was executed, y'all, by electrocution, Gruesome Gertie in 1987, August 24th to be exact. And this is an interesting case, because a lot of these guys that end up on death row and executed, they come from really hard upbringings, and a lot of them didn't have money their whole lives. Sterling Rault was a little bit different. He had a good job, he was a Comptroller at a company called LUTEX. And there was a lady there named Janie Francioni. And Mike, if he were here, could help me pronounce that Italian last name.Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -for sure.Jim: But we're going to go with Francioni. She worked as a secretary. On the evening of March 1st, 1982, which was a Monday, fellow employees observed Rault and Francioni leaving work together in her car. Less than an hour later, three U.N.O. students, which is University of New Orleans inside of New Orleans, they saw the two struggling in the campus parking lot. Francioni screamed at the students, asked them to call the police and make him leave her alone, because he was attempting rape. The students closest to the car observed what appeared to be splashes of blood on her clothing. Rault repeatedly said he had to get her to the hospital, before throwing her into the car from the driver's side all the way to the passenger's side and driving away.Woody: He was saying [crosstalk] the witnesses.Jim: Yeah.Woody: "Oh, I got to get her to the hospital." [crosstalk]Jim: Basically, grabbed her and threw her so hard into the car, she went straight into the passenger seat. So, he was probably a strong guy.Woody: Right.Jim: Approximately 9:20 that evening, a state trooper driving north on Paris Road in an isolated area of New Orleans East stopped to investigate what appeared to be a brush fire and discovered a burning female body.Woody: Ah, worse way.Jim: Close by were partially used five-gallon cans of gasoline and Francioni's blood stained car, which smelled strongly of gasoline. So, he's trying to burn the car in her. A spent bullet was even found on the floor of the car. The victim had a man's belt wrapped around her neck and a jagged wound on the right side of her neck. She had been shot twice. One bullet had struck her in the thigh, traveling into the abdomen, through the small intestines, stomach and liver before exiting the left side of her chest. The pathologist actually testified that this that this would have caused extensive slow bleeding. The wound would have been very painful and would have resulted in death in less than a matter of hours.The second bullet entered directly into the abdomen, and damaged blood vessels in the right kidney and the large blood vessel known as the interior vena cava, before lodging in the spine and would have also caused really rapid bleeding. That wound would have been fatal in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. So, we're painting a picture of here is how she suffered. It was just horrible. The victim was dead-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] twice. Yeah.Jim: Yeah. The victim was dead when the neck wound was inflicted and she was set on fire. Thank, God. Her fingernail scrapings have human blood on them. So, she fought. She's a fighter. Janie Francioni had been with her mother and a friend during the preceding weekend and had had no sexual encounters. I'm sure they tested for that. Her mother took her to work on Monday morning. However, she had engaged in sexual activity 12 to 24 hours prior to her death. Vaginal swabs showed semen fluid but no sperm. Sterling Rault had a vasectomy in 1979.When police searched the area, they detected movement under a nearby bridge. As they approached, a man broke out and ran. After a brief chase, he turned around, threw up his hands, and hollered, "I'm Sterling Rault".Woody: Ran like a bitch.Jim: Yeah. He appeared quiet, calm and relaxed. He was dressed in casual clothing. He was lacking a belt. What his detective brain can put two and two together on that one. And he had a strong aroma of gasoline. So, there were several fresh red scratch marks across his chest. His right hand was swollen. After being advised of his rights, he claimed two men in ski masks kidnapped him and Francioni and raped her. Of course.Testimony at the trial revealed that Rault had been embezzling funds from LUTEX, and his secretary was about to basically ride him out. So, in December, 1981, .25 caliber semi-automatic weapon had been sold to a buyer with a driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones. In executing a search of Rault's residence, they recovered a gun box or the pistol, a box of .25 caliber cartridges and a Mississippi driver's license in the name of Jerry Jones.Woody: Jerry Jones.Jim: So, there it is. They end up taking him to court, obviously, and he gets the death penalty. So, he got executed on August 24th, 1987. He was convicted of raping, stabbing, shooting, and burning the body of Jane Ellen Francioni, a 21-year-old secretary, as we told you. And his final statement was, "I would like the public to know that they are killing an innocent man at this time."Woody: Yeah, three for three. All innocent, huh?Jim: Crazy. "I pray that God will forgive all those involved." How nice of you. "I, personally, do not hold any animosity towards anyone. The country professes to be 'One nation under God,' but the death penalty goes against the word of God. Into the arms of--" [crosstalk]Woody: So does murdering, shooting, laid twice, and choking her with a belt and everything else.Jim: Yeah. "Into the arms of love of God I now go. I love y'all. May God bless y'all." There was a little write up in the paper shortly after these. It was interesting, because he was fighting to try to get these stays of execution, as are typical, but unsuccessful. He rode the lighting as he deserves.Woody: I'm so glad Gruesome Gertie was still involved in all these stories. Jim: Yeah.Woody: I just think that's such a good way for them to go. I know so many people hate the death penalty, and I don't want anybody that's innocent, but these people-- [crosstalk]Jim: Hear some of these stories. You know what?Woody: It's like having a migraine. Everybody knows about someone, not someone about murder, but unless you're going through it, unless it's your loved one. I've seen people who said before their family members got murdered, they were against the death penalty. And after their family members got murdered, they wanted the death penalty.Jim: Yeah.Woody: You understand it, but you don't get it. Jim: That's right.Woody: Well, let's take to our next winner, Antonio James. And, y'all, he's a murderer during some robberies, and he killed two people in January of 23rd, 1979, and was arrested on the 26th of 1979. He was born in 1954, so he was at 1964, 1974, so he was like 24, 25. This happened in Orleans Parish. He actually, this winter, got lethal injection instead of Gruesome Gertie.Jim: Got the needle.Woody: Right, got the needle. Let me tell you about it. So, James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of-- He murdered two people, y'all, Henry Silver, age 70, and Alvin Adams. I don't know what Adams age was. But James had amassed a very extensive juvenile and criminal record by the time he was tried for the murder of Silver. The post-sentence investigation report-- Let me tell you about that. Anytime you get convicted of any crime, especially you're going to do a lot of time, there's actually a division of the parole officers and probation officers who do, what they call a PSI, presentence investigation report on you, and they tell your whole priorcriminal history, work history and everything else, drug use, whatever, and then they write a synopsis on whether to tell the judge whether or not they're likely to offend again.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, that helps the judge determine how many years or whatever they're going toget.Jim: I didn't know that.Woody: Unless it's automatic life in prison. The post-sentence investigation report prepared for the sentencing court listed 37 juvenile incidents. 37. That's the ones that they called [crosstalk]. That's the ones that they called him for. Think about all the ones he got away with.Jim: Probably double it.Woody: Right. James was ordered confined to the Louisiana Training Institute at age 14.And, y'all, that is basically the Angola, we need--[crosstalk] Jim: LTI.Woody: LTI.Jim: [laughs] That's what you used to call it.Woody: That was right down the road from me. We're going to actually cover that one day, because that's real shit there too. But most of these guys, a lot of them go to death row. But anyway, he was locked up in basically juvenile prison which was a very bad place at age 14.In 1973, he was convicted of attempted armed robbery and sentenced to serve three years at the state penitentiary. During this period of confinement, he was convicted of attempted simple escape. He was released in 1975. I don't understand all these years, because armed robbery carries 99 attempted, I think is 40 up to, and then the simple escape alone is 10 years. Anyway, he was released in 1975. In 1978, he was charged with aggravated rape. That's a mandatory life, if not death penalty. But the charge was later refused by the prosecution.James was convicted of the first-degree murder of Alvin Adams on January 23rd, 1979 and was sentenced to life imprisonment. Okay. The first-degree murder, he could have got the death penalty. He was convicted on January 26th of 1979. So, just shit, three days later, armed robbery of Robert Hooten and was sentenced to 99 years for this offense, the maximum under Louisiana law. Now, we go to Henry Silver.On January 1, 1979, James approached 70-year-old Henry Silver as the latter was getting out of his car in his neighborhood in New Orleans. James placed a gun to Silver's head and demanded his money. When Silver shouted for help, James placed the gun under Silver's right ear, cocked the hammer, and fired a shot into Silver's head. James then rifled through Silver's pockets and removed his wallet containing $35. He drove away in a nearby waiting car. Silver died a few hours later at Charity Hospital.Now, let me tell y'all this, I used to go there all the time back in the day. It's closed now after Katrina, but Charity Hospital was rated as the number one trauma center in the world for gunshots [crosstalk] you know why? Because it handled all New Orleans shit. In the 1990s, the Orleans was the murder capital of the world. So, I've seen some crazy shit in there. But anyway, he obviously lived on the machine for overnight. James was arrested on January26th, 1979 when he bungled another armed robbery attempt and was shot with his own gun. He was indicted for first degree murder.At trial by Orleans Parish grand jury indicted in first degree murder. In December 1981, jury found him guilty as charged at a trial where the principal witness against James was his accomplice, Levon Price. After deliberation, the same jury unanimously recommended that the defendant be sentenced to death. Rightfully so.Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, let's go to March 1st, 1996. All these years later, that's 15 years later, Jameswas executed by lethal injection at the Louisiana State Penitentiary, listeners know it as- Jim and Woody: Bloody Angola.Woody: -at the age of 42. The execution team had difficulty locating a vein to insert the catheter into his arm in order to commence the execution. Our hero, Warden Burl Cain requested that James make a fist in order to assist the process. James complied to this request. James declined to give a final statement. However, when Warden Cain later said that James stated, "Bless you," as he was strapped to the execution gurney. His last meal was fried oysters and crab gumbo.Jim: Wow. Good choice. I'd say that. Woody: It made me hunger.Jim: Yeah, dang.Woody: James' execution was the subject of an ABC News documentary on Prime Time Live. In the UK the BBC broadcast a 40-minute piece on April 18th, 1996 on Radio 4 about this case, with particular reference to the role of the British lawyer Clive Stafford Smith in providing adequate defense. So, there you go.Jim: Yeah. Antonio James, we talked about him a little bit on our-- [crosstalk] look, go back and listen to that series, the Burl Cain series, we just wrapped up.Woody: Three or four parts.Jim: Well, it was three parts.Woody: Three parts and then me and Kelly. So, it's four parts. Jim: Yeah. So, the patron, we did an episode with Kelly Jennings. Woody: That's right.Jim: Only available to patron. So go join that patron. Listen to that one. But we discussed Antonio James, and it was interesting. That was the second execution for Burl Cain and the one that he said, "I'm going to do this one right:"Woody: Because the first one-- y'all, go listen to series.Jim: It's really good.Woody: Super powerful. Burl, we're still waiting on you to come on the show, buddy.Jim: You know what I notice about that whole thing? Yes, we are. What I notice about that whole thing is, he's the first one we've come across today that didn't blame it other people.Woody: Yeah, that's right. The first one that didn't-- [crosstalk] Jim: He just said, "God bless, and I'm out."Woody: Yeah, God bless and riding out.Jim: Yeah. At least took it like a man. That's right. So, John Ashley Brown. Let's get to him. John Ashley Brown was executed by lethal injection in April of 1997. I'm going to tell you a little bit about this crime. On the night of the murder, Mr. Laughlin and his wife had eaten dinner at a restaurant near the corner of Dauphine and Touro Streets in New Orleans. Very famous.Woody: Yeah.Jim: Yeah, area of New Orleans. At approximately 11:45 PM, they left the restaurant and began walking to their car, which was located about a block away. Brown exited a nearby vehicle and he confronted the Laughlins. He pinned them against their car, and demanded money from Mr. Laughlin. Mrs. Laughlin screamed and ran back towards the restaurant. When she returned to the scene, her husband was dead.According to NOPD, who had arrived at the location, the victim who had arrived at the location, the victim was found lying face down in the street and bleeding profusely. An autopsy later revealed that Mr. Laughlin had been stabbed 13 times.Woody: It's a lot.Jim: Mrs. Laughlin provided the police with a description of the perpetrator and the vehicle which she had seen him get out of prior to the attack. She also told police that a woman with dark hair had been driving. So, Sergeant James Scott of the NOPD was stopped at a traffic light when heard the description of the crime and saw the suspect being broadcast over the radio. He looked to his left, and there's Brown sitting in a vehicle that matched the description given by the victim's wife. And there was a female at the wheel of the car.Brown's vehicle was pulled into a nearby service station, and Sergeant Scott followed, believing that the occupants of the car might be the suspects. The officer watched as the woman put gasoline in the car while Brown walked over to a water hose and he began washing his hands. He then-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] -blood all over him.Jim: He then re-entered the car. Good point. Sergeant Scott approached the vehicle and ordered Brown to step out and place his hands on the hood, when Brown did so, the police officer observed scratches, marks and droplets of blood on his forearms. He also observed blood between Brown's toes, which were visible through the sandals that he was wearing. In plain view on the floor of the car was a New Orleans shopper's card which belonged to the victim. Wow, the evidence is mounting up, right?Woody: Right.Jimmy: He was arrested, taken into custody, and a search yielded Mr. Laughlin's wallet. A second search pursuant to a properly secured warrant led to the discovery of a Bowie knife which had been concealed underneath the front seat of the car on the passenger side. Mrs. Laughlin positively identified Brown from lineup and basically nailed that, "This is the guy that attacked my husband and killed--"Woody: For those of you who don't know, Bowie knife is a big ass knife.Jim: Yeah. So, obviously, he goes to court, he gets convicted, he gets sentenced to death. And on April 24th, 1997, he was put to death by lethal injection at Bloody Angola. His final words were, "Let my baby sister know I love her and the rest of my family, for supporting me. I love you very much. I'm ready to go now." As he felt the lethal drugs enter his system, Brown stated, “Wow.”Woody: Really?Jim: That's it.Woody: Wow. That's crazy.Jim: Pretty crazy stuff. And those final words, man. But I guess, credit to the guy for not denying it.Woody: Yeah, saying, "You got me bad. Go find the real murderer," and all that shit, right? Jim: Yeah.Woody: And he said, "Wow."Jim: "Wow," when he felt that stuff-- [crosstalk]Woody: [crosstalk] -saw face of Jesus. Jim: Yeah, it could be.Woody: All right. So, now, y'all, we're going to take you to our next, whatever you want to call him. His name is Willie Watson, and he's a murderer. And not only he is a murderer, he's a rapist and a kidnapper and a robber. This offense took place on April 5th, 1981. And Willie Watson was born in 1951. And he killed a lady, Kathy Newman, who was 25 years old, who was a Tulane University medical student. If you don't know that, if you're not from Louisiana, Tulane is basically the Harvard of the south. He did so by shooting her in St. Charles Parish.On the evening of April 5th, 1981, Willie Watson abducted Kathy Newman, a third-year Tulane University medical student, at gunpoint as she arrived at her apartment building in the Carrollton section of New Orleans. Very familiar with that. Watson forced Newman to drive to an isolated area in St. Charles Parish, which would be towards El Paso, he drove her across the bridge, anyway, where he robbed her of her jewelry and raped and sodomized her. [unintelligible [00:37:42]Watson then instructed Newman to dress herself, and as she did so, he shot her in the back of the head, killing her. Watson later confessed to the murder, stating that he shot Newman because he feared that she could identify him. On June 5th, 1981, Watson was found guilty of first-degree murder. And Willie Watson was executed on July 24th of 1987. Watson was convicted of the kidnapping, rape and murder, like we told you, of Kathy Newman. When they asked if he had any last words, Watson calmly shook his head, "No." Let me read you the article.Jim: Mm, no last words.Woody: This article is from The New York Times. It's right up after execution, dates July 25th, 1987, New York Times. "Willie Watson went calmly and silently to his death in an electric chair of Gruesome Gertie." They didn't say that, y'all, it's me.Jim: [laughs]Woody: "Early today, for the rape, robbery and murder of the Tulane University medical student. He was the sixth murderer executed in Louisiana since early June and the second this week--" [crosstalk]Jim: Wow. They making it happen back in those days.Woody: The student, Kathy Newman, 25 years old was abducted, raped, and shot. Now, not just raped, y'all, sodomize I'll say, also and shot to death in 1981. Mr. Watson, 30, confessed that he killed her, attributing the crime to his drug addiction while an adolescent growing up in New Orleans housing projects. Look, back then they were real and legit projects. Did I ever tell you about that? You could be on where Mike's house is on St. Charles and go two blocks in any direction, they had the project-projects. The big high rises and shit. They had their own New Orleans police authorities for it. It was so bad. They wouldn't go in there in the daytime unless they had three units at a time.Jim: Wow.Woody: But anyway, this is a-- [crosstalk] Jim: So, he grew up rough.Woody: That was rough shit, the concrete jungle. So, the execution, which had been scheduled for midnight, was delayed two hours after the US Supreme Court rejected Mr. Watson's appeal on a 4-to-4 tie vote. And Mr. Watson's lawyers made a last-minute plea to Governor Edwin W. Edwards, my boy, in Baton Rouge, and he refused the final statement. At 1:58 AM, Mr. Watson walked into the death chamber. His head had been shaved of the shoulder-wide afro, because he had a big fur, y'all, hairstyle he had the day before when he appeared at the state Pardon Board in a futile appeal.Asked if he wanted to make a final statement, Mr. Watson shook his head, "No." He was then strapped into the wooden electric chair before his face was masked. Y'all, they do that because the eyes fry out of the head and the scalp will catch on fire. Before his face was masked, he looked at his spiritual adviser, Sister Lee Scardina, and mouthed ''I love you, Sister Lee.'' Then he received the first of four jolts. Remember I told you earlier, hit it, they go, "Hit it. [imitating electric sound]." Turn it off. And they did, "Hit it," four times. Anyway. So, then he received the first of four jolts of electricity at 2:02 AM. He was pronounced dead at 2:09 AM. After it was over, the spiritual adviser went to Jed Stone, Mr. Watson's lawyer, who was outside the death chamber, and cried on his shoulder. Outside the prison, six advocates of the death penalty marched in the darkness.Now, I remember back in those days that basically the neighbor in parish where I grew up and-- Shit, I remember, they were rolling [unintelligible [00:41:39] Governor Evers was in office. My mom was on the parole board, parole and pardon board. Anyway, he was good friends with my dad.Jim: Wow. That was like six minutes, they were jumping.Woody: Yeah, they give him for a minute, turn it off, give him another minute, and then--[crosstalk]Jim: Good. Very good.Woody: Nothing more but fuck you. Jim: Yeah. [crosstalk]Woody: Killed 25-year-old, she was going to be a doctor. He raped her and butt raped her.Jim: Awful. All right, we're going to tell you-- Look, and this one's disturbing, so prepare yourself. But we're going to tell you about Andrew Lee Jones. And he was executed by electrocution on July 22nd of 1991. Tell you about the crime. On February 17th, 1984, 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was living with her mother, grandparents in the Scotlandville section of Baton Rouge. Tell them about Scotlandville, Woody.Woody: Yeah, I'm just going to tell you. I'm about to do a full-blown episode. I have all the research and everything on this case, and it's bad.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Scotlandville, y'all, it's in north Baton Rouge almost to Baker, what they call Baker, Louisiana, which is really Baton Rouge just runs into Baker. It's all still east Baton Rouge Parish.Jim: Bad part of Baton Rouge.Woody: Yeah, it's-- [crosstalk]Jim: A lot of gang activity in that area. It used to be way back in the day, a decent area.Woody: Decent. Back in this time, it wasn't that bad. But this dude is that bad. Again, Real Life Real Crime original episode, you're going to get all the details, we'll get you.Jim: There you go. So, at 04:00 AM on February 17th of 1984, the grandmother discovered that the child, the 11-year-old Tumekica Jackson was missing from her bedroom. The police discovered that someone had broken the screen of the rear den window and had opened the back door. In the muddy ground, near the house, police obtained a cast of an imprint made by the left shoe from a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. There were no signs of a struggle inside the house. The investigation immediately focused on Jones because his stormy romantic relationship of several years with the victim's mother. It had been broken off the week prior to this incident. The victim knew Jones well, and he had been in the home many times. On the evening of the child's disappearance, Jones had called the mother's home three times and had told the grandmother that he would not be responsible for his actions,-Woody: Not going to be responsible.Jim: -if the mother continued to refuse to see him. About 6:30 AM, the police went to the apartment where Jones lived with his sister, Terry Jones, and his half-brother, Abraham Mingo. Jones told the police he had been home all night, and Mingo and Ms. Jones confirmed his story. A few hours later, Ms. Jones called the police and said she may have been mistaken about that. After questioning her further, the police obtained a written consent to search the apartment. When no one answered the officer's knock, Ms. Jones used her key to open the door and officers found Jones in the bathroom washing a pair of size 8 1/2 tennis shoes. The bath tub was full of dirt and leaves. The officers seized the tennis shoes and a pair of green gloves, and they requested that Jones give them a statement. After signing a waiver, Jones gave the police a tape-recorded statement in which he denied any knowledge of the offense.Woody: "I don't know nothing."Jim: Lack of evidence, so they had to allow him to leave with his sister. But approximately 06:00 PM, the victim's partially nude body was found in a drainage canal.Woody: In a ditch.Jim: An autopsy established a child had been beaten, raped and manually strangled. The police again questioned Mingo. Although he initially told conflicting stories, he eventually gave a detailed account of his activities with the defendant on Friday night and Saturday morning. According to Mingo, he and Jones were out with the defendant on Friday evening, but dropped him off in Scotlandville. About 1:00 AM, Mingo and Jones went to the Snowflake Lounge, but Jones left alone about 30 minutes later, and Mingo returned to the apartment.Now, at some point between 04:30 AM and 05:00 AM, Mingo was awakened by Jones, he knocked on the door, whereupon he let defendant in and went back to bed. When Mingo and Jones were alone in the apartment later that morning, the defendant told him that he should've stayed home, that he did something he didn't want to do, and that he done fucked up. Jones gave Mingo a TG&Y bag and asked him to throw it away, which he did without looking inside. At Mingo's direction, police recovered a TG&Y bag from a dumpster near a grocery store. The bag contained socks, a pair of blue jeans and a pink sweatshirt, which were wet, muddy and stained. Of course, they put some analysis on that and identified the stain is a mixture of blood and semen fluid.Woody: This is before DNA.Jim: Mingo also told the police about a pair of boxer shorts that he had found in the bathroom of the apartment. The shorts belonged to Mingo, but Jones had worn them on Friday night. Pursuant to Mingo's written consent, the police recovered a pair of stained brown and white boxer shorts. Analysis confirmed the presence of blood and semen fluid on the boxer shorts. On the basis of this information, they finally got a warrant. They arrested Jones. Jones gave a videotape statement in which he asserted that he and Rudolph Springer had gone to the victim's house on Saturday morning to commit a burglary. They were scared of being recognized, so Jones remained in the car while Springer entered the house. When Springer returned carrying the victim, Jones got in the backseat and pulled his cap over his face.After a few minutes, Springer drove Jones to his apartment. That was the last time the defendant saw the victim. That was his story, they didn't buy it. And eventually, he gets sentenced to death.So, he was executed on July 22nd, 1991, by electric chair. While he did not make a final statement, at a pardon board hearing three days before he was executed, he said, "There's a possible chance I did it. A possible chance I didn't do it. If I had not been drunk, nothing like that would have happened. I'm like anybody else. I don't want to die or anything like that." So, that was his statement after that. I hate it when it involves children. It's disgusting.Woody: Yeah, I actually have some more in-depth knowledge on that case. I'm going to bring it to you on a original RLRC episode in the future.Jim: Oh, very good.Woody: He is a real piece of shit. I know of Mingo personally, and I'll explain all that. Jim: I look forward to that, fellas.Woody: Right. Let's take to the next one. John Brogdon. I'm going to give you the facts of the case. On the evening of October 7th, 1981, Rubeta Brown and her 11-year-old sister, Barbara Jo, walked to a convenience store near their home in Luling, Louisiana. Y'all that is in St. Charles Parish. Again, down there in the El Paso area and all that kind of outside NewOrleans, but across the swamp. So, they walked to use the telephone. 19-year old Brogdon and his 17-year old friend, Bruce Perritt, arrived at the store while Rubeta was on the phone.Perritt approached Barbara Jo and put his arm around her. Rubeta called her sister away, and the two left. On the way home, Barbara Jo asked her sister if she could visit a neighbor's home for a few minutes. Rubeta allowed her sister to leave her to do so. Rubeta went to the neighbor's house, about 10 minutes later to pick up Barbara Jo. Barbara Jo wasn't there. And after short search in the neighborhood, Rubeta informed her mother that Barbara Jo was missing. And they called the sheriff's office.After that, a friend of Barbara Jo's came forward to say that he had seen Barbara Jo earlier that evening in a car seated between Brogdon and Perritt. Two men discovered Barbara Jo's body later that evening behind a levee. Again, y'all levee are high dirt walls, usually dirt, sometimes cement, hold back the rivers in the water. But anyway, they saw him behind the levee in Luling. And look, you get no fucking business being behind a levee, period.Jim: Yeah, especially in Luling.Woody: Right. Perritt's car was found parked a short distance away. Two other men later informed authorities that they had seen Brogdon and Perritt walking on the road near this levee. Brogdon was without a shirt and appeared disheveled. Brogdon and Perritt were arrested that evening at Brogdon's home on suspicion of Barbara Jo's murder. After being informed of his Miranda rights at the sheriff's office, Brogdon waived his right to counsel and confessed to the murder and aggravated rape of Barbara Jo. In his statement, Brogdon told how he and Perritt tortured and killed her. Instead of visiting the mother's home that night, Barbara Jo had returned to the convenience store and met with Brogdon and Perritt. The confession-- Well, that's their story, y'all. Confession admitted that after they picked her up at the convenience store, Brogdon and Perritt drove her to the levee where her body was later found.They repeatedly raped her and forced her to perform oral sex on them. All during these acts, they beat Barbara Jo with their fists. They also broke bottles on the cement and then stabbed her repeatedly with the edges. Perritt also struck Barbara Jo in the head with a brick that he found lay nearby. Brogdon then beat her with the brick. The two also used pointed sticks to pierce her body. Brogdon and Perritt left the scene of the crime and Perritt's vehicle when they heard another car approached and they hauled ass in Perritt's vehicle.Brogdon was convicted by St. Charles jury of murder and aggravated rape and sentenced to death. So he was executed on July 30, 1987. Brogdon and his co-defendant Bruce Perritt were convicted of raping, beating. We told you about all that. Perritt received a life sentence, y'all, because the jury deadlocked in the penalty phase. I don't know what fucking--Jim: Some juror. Yeah.Woody: -idiots on that jury. Brogdon made no formal final statement. As he turned to seathimself in the electric chair, his last words were, "God bless y'all." It's crazy, right? Jim: Horrible.Woody: We do some really uplifting stories. We've done some great, great shit. But sometimes, you got to let it be known. Wow.Jim: How the cow eats a cabbage.Woody: Right. [crosstalk] -the worst fucking place in the world.Jim: Yeah. These people that are getting executed are not always angels. Woody: They did everything to that girl. Poor-- [crosstalk]Jim: Blind woman. That's just awful. Thank y'all so much for supporting us. We hope y'all enjoyed this episode. We've got a Part 3 that we'll drop at some point that you'll really like as well. But we just thank y'all for all you do for us.Woody: Definitely patron members, hope you're enjoying your commercial free, early releases, and all your bonus episodes, and everything else. And you want to be a patron member, you can go to patreon.com, type in Bloody Angola.Jim: Yes. And it'll pull it right up.Woody: Follow us on Facebook, and look for Bloody Angola announcements and everything Real Life Real Crime, including Real Life Real Crime app, and follow our other show, Real Life Real Crime Daily, [crosstalk] me and Mike Agovino.Jim: Yeah, absolutely.Woody: Original Real Life Real Crimes like the one I'm going to tell you about with Mingoinvolved in it. It drops on Tuesdays as of now, y'all. Jim: Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Everton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: Complete story of America's bloodiest prison.Jim and Woody: Peace.[Bloody Angola theme]Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Death Chamber Part 3

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 1970 53:19

In this episode of Bloody Angola:A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman, We wrap up the Death chamber covering the stories of those inmates eventually executed at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola, from the crimes to their final walk.#Louisianastateprison #AngolaPrison #BloodyAngola #TrueCrime #Podcast #WoodyOverton #Podcasts #Deathchamberpart3 #deathchamber #Execution #ConvictOur Sponsors for this episode have a great deal for you!GET 16 FREE MEALS PLUS FREE SHIPPING AT HELLOFRESH!HelloFresh delivers step-by-step recipes and fresh, pre-portioned ingredients right to your door. First, you set your meal plan preferences with options for carnivores, vegetarians, calorie-counters, and more. You'll choose from 30+ delicious weekly recipes carefully put together by the amazing chefs!Click Here to Take advantage of 16 FREE MEALS and FREE SHIPPING!DEATH CHAMBER PART 3 FULL TRANSCRIPTJim: Hey, everyone. And welcome back to Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. I got something to say before we get started.Jim: Yes.Woody: We are nominated under the People's Choice Podcast Awards for 2023 under the History section.Jim: Love it.Woody: We're nominated as one of the best in the world. We need y'all to, please, go and vote. It's podcastawards.com. And they'll have you enter in your email and a password, and that's to stop people from cheating the bots. But you can enter as many times as you want to from different emails, and then they'll send you a confirmation email. But right underneath that, when you fill it in, they ask you, "Would you be a final judge?" So, what happens is this process, when it closes at the end of this month, they're going to take the top 10 in each category that make the finals and then like 20,000 of the people that vote it, they're going to randomly select them to be final judges. And so, if you would check that you'll be a final judge. You don't have to judge in every category, and you don't have to vote in every category, but you do that and you go under it.And I've been nominated and Kelly Jennings has been nominated for Unspeakable, our Dear Friend for the Adam Curry's People's Choice Podcast Year Award. I've been nominated for best male host in the world for Real Life Real Crime. Both Kelly and I have been nominated under Best True Crime. Real Life Real Crime and Real Life Real Crime Daily, and original Real Life Real Crime nominated under drama and storytelling. And you can also fill out the most influential podcaster, you could do that also. Oh, and Bloody Angola is nominated under the-- we found out last night that Bloody Angola is also nominated under the The Adam Curry's People's Choice, which is the biggest one, y'all, of the year award. So, thank you so much and we love y'all. Voting is going to close in the next--Jim: 31st.Woody: Yeah, 31st. Huge honor for Bloody. Bloody deserves it. And it's a history podcastbasically. I mean, we're telling you the history of America's bloodiest prison. Jim: That's right.Woody: And so, thank you so much. It's such an honor and I know it's a pain in the ass to take the time to go do that, but it really validates what we're doing and gives us a shot in the arm and-Jim: Helps us to bring you more.Woody: -help us to keep going and bring more content to you. And speaking of that, our Patreon members, thank you so much. We appreciate you. You rock. Couldn't do the show without you. And, y'all, look, how old are we now?Jim: You know, Woody, that's a good question.Woody: It seems like it's been forever but in a good way.Jim: Yeah. I think we're coming up on our year.Woody: Yeah, it's got to be close to the year. I mean, like real close. Jim: I have to look that up next episode, I'll tell y'all.Woody: Very sweet to be nominated for both at The Adam Curry's People's Choice Award and then under the History section. It's just a real, real testament to what we're doing and that y'all love the show. So, thank you so much.Jim: 100%, and History, both Woody and I are big history buffs and so that's a cool category for us to be nominated in. It's different. Both of us have been nominated for other podcasts that we did in the past. But this is kind of a cool one because we both just love history, and we know all y'all do too.Woody: This is our first one that we've done it together. Jim: Yeah.Woody: So, it means a lot to me too.Jim: Absolutely. Me as well. And so, we're going to get into-- we brought you a couple of episodes with Death Chamber talking about these guys telling a little bit about their crimes and their executions and all that. And this is a continuance of that. This will be the final Death Chamber that we cover. I want to say this before we start for our patron members, we're going to do a bonus episode with the true final Death Chamber, which is the last few that we're not going to cover right now here. But after we're done with this, keep in mind, we've pretty much covered all the people since 1980 that have been executed via Gruesome Gertie or lethal injection at Angola.So, we're going to go ahead and start it up and we're going to tell you first about Alvin Moore. He was executed by electrocution in 1987. I'm going to tell you a little bit about his case. And it starts with Aron Wilson. So, Aron Wilson and his wife Jo Ann and their four-month-old daughter, Regina, lived in Bossier City, Louisiana. Alvin Moore was a former neighbor and coworker of Aron's at the Veterans Administration Hospital there. On July 9th of 1980, Moore picked up Arthur Lee Stewart, Jr, and Dennis Sloan in his automobile. So, they're riding around, and at some point, Moore goes to the Wilsons' house, and he decides he wants to get some money. They apparently supposedly owed him some money. So according to Sloan, who was with him, Moore knocked on the door and Jo Ann Wilson answered it. She and Moore talked briefly, and Moore entered the house. Five minutes later, Sloan followed Moore to the door of the house. The door was slightly ajar, and Sloan saw Moore and Jo Ann making sex, as he would call it, on the floor of the living room.Woody: Really?Jim: Sloan returned to Moore's automobile, and he was going to tell Stewart about it, what was going on, of course. "Man, they're in there doing it on the floor." Stewart and Sloan thenentered the house. Moore and a crying Ms. Wilson had gone into the bedroom. She's crying. Yeah. Where baby Regina was also crying. Moore was going crazy, ransacking the house. Jo Ann Wilson was described as panicky and scared. She also appeared to be frightened of Moore. So, Sloan, in testimony, said that Jo Ann Wilson said, "Take whatever you want. Just get out of my house." Sloan also testified that Ms. Wilson asked Moore not to hurt her or her child. After being threatened, Ms. Wilson gave Moore a box of Kennedy half dollars. Sloan took a white bucket with $18.80 in pennies. And Stewart took some stereo components. This is back in the days when they had the--Woody: Yeah, when [crosstalk] had the Hi-Fi.Jim: Exactly. Sloan and Stewart left the house and heard Jo Ann Wilson screaming behind them. Moore runs out of the house five minutes later, he's carrying a knife in his hand. Stewart testified that this was the same knife that Moore had on the backseat of his car when the group drove up to the house. Moore told Stewart and Sloan, "I'm fixing to trip y'all out. I stabbed that bitch nine times." The three then drove to Church's Fried Chicken and McDonald's. Jo Ann Wilson--Woody: Paid in pennies, probably.Jim: Yeah. Jo Ann Wilson managed to call 911. The call was received by the Bossier City Police Department. A unit got dispatched and a patrolman arrives at the house two minutes later. He knocked on the front door, but Jo Ann Wilson said she was unable to open it. He kicked the door in and found blood, of course, all over the living room. Officer Fields found Ms. Wilson lying in the bedroom and both rooms were in disarray. The victim was nude from the waist down, was bleeding from her vagina, chest and arms. She was having difficulty breathing and told Officer Fields she was dying. He asked her who stabbed her, and she responded, Alvin. Fields asked her that was the patrolman if she knew Alvin. And she replied he was a black guy that used to live down the street. It was obvious to Fields that Ms. Wilson was dying and she died about ten minutes later. So, they go, they arrest Moore at 01:00 AM the next morning. Of course, they find those stereo components we told you about, the white bucket and pennies were found in the trunk of his car.So, they had all the evidence there. He goes through trials, he's found guilty, and he was executed in 1987. Moore made no final statement to the public. His attorney said his last words were to him, in which he said, "They can kill my body, but they can't kill my soul."Woody: You better hope your soul was right.Jim: Yeah, your soul might be headed somewhere you don't want to be. Woody: You were playing God when you killed your victim.Jim: That's right.Woody: You raped her and stabbed her and all that. It's crazy. These stories, y'all, are disturbing. But you know what? These are death penalty cases. And there's a reason we have the death penalty. Some people don't deserve to breathe.I'm going to tell you about Benjamin Berry. On January 30th, 1978, Benjamin Berry and David Pennington drove from Baton Rouge to Metairie, which is about a 40, 45-minute drive, Metairie being on the outskirts in New Orleans, y'all, with the intention of robbing the Metairie Bank and Trust Company. Berry entered the bank and drew a 9mm automatic pistol, and there was an exchange of gunfire between Berry and Cochran. Now, Cochran was aJefferson Parish deputy sheriff working as a guard in the bank. Y'all, that's a common thing. They work extra duty is what it's called, their side jobs.When they started shooting, Berry fired three shots, and Cochran fired one shot. Cochran's shot struck Berry in the lower left chest. Then, two of Berry's shots struck Cochran in the shoulder and the neck, causing Cochran to die. Berry and Pennington fled the scene and hauled ass back to Baton Rouge, where they were both arrested. Now, Berry was indicted for first degree murder. So goes through, and naturally, he gets found guilty. I don't know what type of surveillance cameras they had in '78, January 30--Jim: Probably not too great.Woody: But you got a lot of eyewitnesses, and I'm sure they did whatever, because death penalty cases, they have to have a lot of shit. But he was indicted for murder, found guilty, and Benjamin Berry was executed on June 7th, 1987. So, what, nine years after. And Berry was convicted in the fatal shooting of Robert Cochran, JPSO deputy I told y'all about. And guess what, Jim? He made no final statement, but I'm going to read y'all an article from the New York Times, dated June 8th, 1987. It says, "A high school dropout condemned for murder in a guard and a bank robbery was put to death early today in Louisiana's electric chair."Jim: Oh, Gruesome Gertie.Woody: Gruesome Gertie. "'Benjamin Berry, 31 years old, was executed shortly after midnight,' said C. Paul Phelps, Secretary of Department of Corrections in Baton Rouge. He was the 76th prisoner executed in the United States and the 8th in Louisiana since the United States Supreme Court allowed states to restore the death penalty in 1976. Mr. Berry's appeals ran out late Friday when the Supreme Court refused to stop the execution." And old buddy of mine and dear friend of my dad, good, bad, and different, and my mom served on the parole board underneath him, Governor Edwin W. Edwards refused to pardon him and he wouldn't step in. Apparently, Mr. Berry had already accepted that his sentence would not be stayed. And on Thursday, he asked the warden of state prison in Angola to move him off the death row to the isolation cell down the hall from the electric chair so he could be alone.""Mr. Berry was convicted in 1978 of killing Robert Cochran, a bank guard in a bank robbery in Metairie on January 30th, 1978. This was his 8th execution date. The others had been canceled by appeals. He spent Saturday visiting members of his family. The prison warden, Hilton Butler, said about 30 people held a candlelight vigil in front of the governor's mansion in Baton Rouge to protest the execution, and roughly a dozen people gathered for similar protests in New Orleans. Several death penalty supporters gathered outside the prison's front gate. They wore shirts lettered with the message "Justice for All, Even the Victims." The execution was the first of five scheduled in Louisiana and the next two weeks, and the first in the state since January 4th, 1985."Jim: Wow.Woody: Governor Edwards didn't play. He's like, "You want a what? Ride the lightning,bitch."Jim: And I heard you say Hilton Butler--[crosstalk]Woody: We talked about Ms. Ann before and everything, and my mama knows them all. Well, they grew up in St. Francisville wherever they live-- I think they still live there-- When I was in school, they were still living there.Jim: I believe they still do. As a matter of fact, the son of Hilton Butler is a listener of Bloody Angola.Woody: Shoutout.Jim: Who was also lifelong Angola employed correctional officer and has reached out to usa few times, mainly fact checking. [laughter]Woody: That's cool because the history doesn't mean-- everything that comes out of books isn't always right. It's definitely not as valid as the people who lived it.Jim: That's right. We'd love to have him on the show, I know you're listening.Woody: Absolutely. Shoutout to you. Hey, shoutout to all you correctional officers at BloodyAngola in the past, current, and the wardens and everybody else.Jim: Yeah. A lot of them listen to us and they do reach out and let us know.The next guy we're going to tell you about is David Dene Martin. And he was a killer of four, minimum here. He killed these four people in Terrebonne Parish.Woody: Terrebonne down south.Jim: Down south. And he was executed by electrocution in 1985 as well. So, a lot of 85s inthere. And we're going to give you the facts of the case.In 1977, David Martin's wife, Gloria, began to work in a restaurant lounge owned by Bobby Todd, who was a victim. The next day, she had sexual relations with Todd. That's not good. The following day, she informed her husband of this fact. She refused Martin's request that she quit working for Todd. So basically, she goes home, says, "I'm sleeping with my boss." And he says, "Well, you got to quit." And she says, "Nah. I'm not going to quit."Woody: Keep my benefits.Jim: Yeah. That night, Martin goes and he steals a friend's Colt Python .357 Mag.Woody: That's a bad pistol. Yeah, second largest-- It used to be the second largest caliber in the world.Jim: So to make matters worse, the firearm was loaded with hollow point bullets, and Martin later purchased an additional box of shells for it. On August 13--Woody: Shit, it's a revolver, how many bullets do you need? Jim: Yeah. Mike said he's going to kill him good.Woody: Kill him good.Jim: That's what Mike would say. On August 13th, Martin visited his next-door neighbor, Raymond Rushing, and Martin told Rushing he was going to shoot Todd. He explained that he was jealous of his wife's relationship with Todd. On August 14th of that year, Martin told another friend, Chester Golden, that his wife was working at the restaurant and would not quit. He indicated that he had a bone to pick with Todd and had waited for the last two nightsoutside Todd's restaurant for an opportunity to get Todd. So, he's telling everybody about this. Martin showed Golden the stolen pistol. He told Golden that because he stole the gun from a felon, its theft would not be reported.Woody: True.Jim: Golden told Martin that he looked pretty drug out and had lost weight. Martin replied that he had been up for two nights and had not been eating. That evening, according to accounts he later gave, Martin drove to the vicinity of the trailer in which Todd lived. He parked down the road from the trailer so he could approach it in the guise of a hitchhiker on foot. So, he's pretending like he's hitchhiking. He entered the trailer, and he confronted Todd who offered him a roll of bills. "Here, let me give you some money."Woody: [crosstalk] -makes up for banging your wife?Jim: Yeah. Martin, he ignored that. He basically said, "I just want you to know my name."Then, he shoots Todd twice in the chest.Woody: Wow.Jim: He proceeded to shoot three other people in the trailer. Woody: Wow.Jim: Todd's bodyguard, he had a bodyguard, and two nude females. Woody: What?Jim: They must have been doing something in there. [crosstalk] Come in, yeah. So, Martin inflicted multiple bullet wounds on each of those four. One of the women was first wounded in the abdomen. She told Martin she was in pain, begging him to finish her. He shot her in the head and killed her.Woody: Wow.Jim: Martin then took the roll of money to make it look like a robbery and left. Around 08:00 PM, he returns to Golden's home. He was excited. He asked Golden, he says, "Take a ride with me." During the ride, he tells Golden, "I killed four people at the restaurant." Martin said he had not touched anything, and although the authorities might suspect him, they had no proof that he committed those, although the fact that he told 1500 people. Martin confessed to four more people that night. He had told one of them, Pamela Wilson, that he had thrown the gun in the bayou. Martin was arrested a short time later. The sheriff who made the arrest told reporters that Martin appeared strung out on dope at the time, probably was. Martin's brother retained a Texas attorney with 10 years' criminal experience and some experience with capital cases. The attorney associated a Louisiana lawyer with limited criminal experience and no experience in capital offenses.Woody: Most of the times, big shot attorneys come out of state, because they're not licensed to practice under Napoleonic code of law, they have to get local representation, and then they can take over the case and act under that guy's license.Jim: Yeah. There you go. And that is definitely what happened here. And using the words, "Walk me or fry me," Martin told counsel in the first meeting to either seek a full acquittal or the death penalty. So, how do you like that? "Walk me or fry me." He didn't want to spend time in jail, in other words.Woody: I got kind of respect for that, actually.Jim: So, they decided to fry him. And David Martin was executed on January 4th, 1985. He was convicted, obviously, of all four of those murders. That's quadruple murder, y'all. All of them, of course, being shot to death. And that mobile home, in case you're curious, that was near a town called Homa, which is way down south.Woody: [crosstalk] -down south actually, I drive through it every couple of weeks to go fishing.Jim: Yeah. And he was for sure a drug addict, that came out during his trial. He made no final statement during his execution but a pardon board clemency hearing the afternoon before his death, Martin said, "To take someone's life is out of character for me. It's not David Martin. I am devastated of what I'm done, but I can't remember it. My life has been dedicated to saving lives, helping people, not destroying people. I know I wouldn't willingly take another person's life. Something bad went down, but it's not me. It wasn't right. I don't know. That's all." That's what he said.Woody: Hey, idiot, you didn't just take one, you took four. That's a really, really interesting point. One of the mitigating circumstances in any death penalty case in the series I'm starting next week, I'm not going to give the name up yet. It's death penalty cases. And I don't get this, and I don't understand and maybe they changed the law or something, but if you're high and you commit a death penalty infraction, if you will, then they can use that in a death penalty phase to get you off. I don't get that. I believe you chose to get fucking high, and whatever you did after that, you're still responsible for it.Jim: Yeah. And another thing with that case is, and I notice this with a lot of cases, when you have a crime of passion of some sort, and even though this wasn't against-- was because of his wife, it wasn't against his wife. But it seems like these killings are more overboard. They're overkill, if you will.Woody: He can't say he didn't plan it out because he bought bullets and he stole the gun. He told everybody.Jim: Told everybody.Woody: And I don't care how high you were, you weren't high for that long. But certainly raises some questions when-- not victim shaming or blaming, but homie had two bodyguards-- and two bodyguards?Jim: Well, he had a bodyguard, two new females with him.Woody: It must have been a titty bar or some-- I don't know. Shame that happened. Hedidn't give any final last words, just to the pardon board.Jim: Yeah, just to the pardon board. Nothing at the actual execution itself.Woody: Yeah, well, very interesting. I did not know about the case. I may have to look into it some more one day. I have some good friends down there. And anytime you have something, especially from-- and Homa is not that small now, but an older crime like this, scenario like that, you can go to that town and find somebody that's of that age range and they'd be like, "Holy shit, I can tell you everything."Jim: Oh, yeah. [crosstalk]Woody: All right, let me take it to the next one. Ernest Knighton. Ernest Knighton, y'all, he was from Bossier Parish-- or the crime occurred in Bossier Parish, and Jim talked on the first one at Bossier Parish and Shreveport, they're just right across the river from each other, y'all. Literally, the river separates the two. And it's in the far northwestern corner of the state of Louisiana. Literally, when you leave Shreveport, I think it's like 15, 20 miles to the Texas line. But let me tell you about Ernest Knighton. And the facts are taken from the testimony of Mrs. Shell, who was the victim's wife, and are as follows.Mr. and Mrs. Shell were working at the Fina Station on Benton and Shed Road in Bossier City between 8:00 and 8:30 PM. The defendant and another man, Anthony White, entered the station. White asked for a package of cigarettes and gave Mrs. Shell a dollar bill. This tells you how long ago, y'all, this was-- it was murder, it was on March 17th, 1981, I was 11. I don't know if I was smoking yet, but I was probably getting really close. Dollar a pack, saying about right on the price. Anyway, he gave Mrs. Shell the dollar bill. When she returned his change, so they were even cheaper than a dollar, he walked around the service counter and told her, "This is a stick-up." Holding a gun, the defendant also went behind the counter and asked Mr. Shell where the money was kept. Ms. Shell, who had been talking on the telephone, went into the small room in the back of the station to retrieve the money and gave it to the defendant who had followed him into the room. Mrs. Shell heard a shot, Mr. Shell was wounded.From her location, Mrs. Shell could not actually see her husband but said that he offered no resistance and said nothing to provoke defendant into shooting him. The defendant then ran out and told White to bring Mrs. Shell along with him. Anthony White grabbed Mrs. Shell who broke loose at the doorway, and retreated back inside the station and locked the door which then separated her from the two thieves. Mr. Shell died as a result of shock from blood loss from a single gunshot wound through the arm, abdomen, and chest. That's a hell of a shot.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Arm, abdomen, and chest. Maybe he was standing above him-- Jim: Somebody's-- like the John F. Kennedy [crosstalk] went into-- Woody: The magic bullet.Jim: The governor--Woody: He had to be above him or something, maybe he's getting out of the safe. That's the only way you can get that angle. That's crazy. Additional testimony by Wanda Smith, a woman who had driven with defendant, Anthony White and another man, Wayne Harris, to the Fina station, revealed that the defendant and White ran from the service station, jumped into the car, and had Wanda Smith drive to a motel and get a room. There, an argument over the money began. And waving the gun he used to shoot Mr. Shell, Earnest Knighton stated in Wanda's presence that, "The man's hand looked like it was fixing to move, so I had to shoot him." Y'all, that all comes from the trial, and naturally, he was found guilty.Ernest Earnest Knighton, Jr. was executed on October 30th, 1984. Knighton was convicted of the shooting of death of Ralph Shell, a Bossier City service station proprietor, during an attempted robbery on March 17th, 1981. I want you to notice how fast these executions were. This is three years. And the longest one we did today was nine years. Now, they don't execute them anymore. We've covered the people have been on death row 28 years plus years like that. Fuck that, they just need to kill them.So, they get Knighton into Gruesome Gertie, strap him down, and we told y'all about the tie-down teams and all that, and basically drug them in, strapped them down and they say, "Hey, dude--" they didn't say dude, they read the death warrant.Jim: No, they might have. [chuckles]Woody: Yeah, right. They read the death warrant. "You've been sentenced to death by the State of Louisiana, da, da, da. Do you have any final words?" And this is what he said. He said, "I am sorry. More sorry than I can say Mr. Shell is dead and that I am responsible. I feel sorry for Mrs. Shell and all of Mr. Shell's family and friends. I feel sorry for my mother, my family, and everyone else who will grieve for me. I have asked God to forgive me. I have to say that what you are doing is wrong. If I thought my death would bring back Mr. Shell or save someone else from a murder, I would volunteer. But I know it won't work. You don't teach respect for life by killing. I urge you not to kill anyone else. I ask God to forgive you for killing me. And I now ask God in the name of Jesus to receive my spirit."Jim: He had me on the first part, lost me on the second. Woody: I know, right?Jim: I'm glad he took responsibility and admitted.Woody: And when he started in on the "I forgive you for killing me," they're doing their job, dude. They didn't make you go into that bank and rob them and all that. I don't know, but at least he tried to say something. But let's talk about the death penalty for a minute. When I was in college and studying criminal justice, they talked about criminal deterrence. How do you stop crime? The ultimate one being the death penalty. But the studies have proven, for a crime deterrent to be effective, it has to be swift and certain. Meaning that if you leave here today and you go and Lori Johnson, best banging chick in the world, Hancock Whitney, right down the street, that's where I do all my shit. But if you go in that bank and you kill someone, you're on camera, you're going to get convicted, etc. But nowadays, you're going to go sit for 28 years and appeals on death row and all that, it's not effective as a deterrent.Now, let's take it we don't live in this world, let's put you in Woody's world. If you walked in the bank and you did it, and they caught your ass and they put you to the nearest tree and strung you the fuck up, that's going to stop the normal person. A lock keeps an honest man honest. That would certainly deter people more than what you do now because even like the Manson murderers, dude got out of prison yesterday, or the chick got out of prison yesterday. But it has to be swift and certain. The problem with our justice system is it is nothing if not slow.Jim: Yeah. The wheels of justice turn slow, as they say, and I agree 100%. And they have a lot of technology now that they didn't have then. Look, we have another series that we do every now and then that talks about exonerations, and certainly those happen. Certainly, you never want to think about people being sentenced to death that did not commit a crime, but it's happened.Woody: I'm sure it's happened. Well, they probably committed some crime. It's not that one.Jim: Right. So, it certainly does happen. But the good thing about technology these days is it's almost impossible to get away with something very long like it used to be. And I think about serial killers in particular because DNA has come so far. You almost can't breathe on somebody without being able to figure out who it was.Woody: And when I started, we couldn't even get DNA done, but I'll take it a step further and it trips me out, because I think about it every day, everywhere I go, because of what you told me. And that is that you're on camera up to--Jim: It's like 46 times per day on average.Woody: On average. So, everywhere you go, you're on camera. But now, that's 46 average. If you go somewhere and you're showing your ass, look how many videos are going viral. Everybody wants to shoot a video and post shit. Not only advances in technology and DNA and forensics, and the familial DNA, and just everything. The computers they use to reenact crime scenes, and trace the bullets and everything else, all this technology as it gets better, but you also have all these cameras and people are more aware. And you have social media now which, shit, you didn't have back in 80s. The internet wasn't invented.Jim: Yeah. When you're looking for a suspect, the sheriff's office can just post that on social media and automatically thousands and thousands of people see it. Back in the day, when Woody was doing cases, you had to go door to door sometimes.Woody: You had to go to door every time, and you waited and you had to haul ass. I can tell you so many cases that I had to haul ass to Channel 2, Channel 33, and Channel 9 to get them the press release before they went on air at 6 o'clock or 10 o'clock, or whatever, just before Fox was even in Baton Rouge. That was it. That's all you had. And you only have a small percentage of the population that watches the fucking news, the local news.Jim: Yeah. Great point.Woody: And I agree with you, certainly we don't want anybody to be wrongfully executed. And we've talked about and given shoutouts on the stories that people who have been exonerated. But as the technology advances, as the DNA advances, so do the crimes, and the defenses for the crimes, meaning that there's no more respect for life. Everybody just thinks you pull the trigger and there's no consequence. They have never worked a homicide scene. They've never had to sit with a crying family and all that. But more importantly, the defense, because all these trials and all these cases have come in years before, these lawyers are learning about it in law school. And if you choose to do the criminal path, you're going to know about it. And all these cases have been cited. So, you have volumes and volumes and volumes of more information, just like the DNA is so far advanced now and all these other crime fighting techniques, the defense has so many more techniques to use against prosecution. And that's why we got people, like one guy who's the second longest living on death row, and damn it, I can't remember his name, he and his lover murdered that little boy and raped him right here-- [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. You did a--Woody: -on the river. And I did a story on that, but he's been on death row like 29 years now. The other dude, his accomplice was on death row, fuck, he died of natural causes. This dude's like 80 years old now, something like that. So, it is what it is. And we want to bring y'all this series. And Jim's got one more, and then the [unintelligible 00:38:50] series will be locked up for patron members.Jim: Patron members. So, we're going to tell you about Elmo Sonnier. Woody: [crosstalk]Jim: Yeah. And many of you, it may click, and we'll tell you after we do this particular segment and why it did click for you. And Elmo Sonnier was executed in 1984 by electrocution, Gruesome Gertie. Give you the facts of the case.On the evening of November 4, 1977, David LeBlanc, who was 16, and Loretta, and Bourque, who was 18, attended a high school football game. Later that evening, the couple, they go park in a remote area in St. Martin Parish. Look, back in those days, that was parking. You take your girlfriend, and you go somewhere and you make out a little bit.Woody: [crosstalk] LSU lakes and call it the submarine races.Jim: [laughs]Woody: "What are you doing here, son?" "Watching submarine races."Jim: Watching submarine races, yeah. So, they go parking, I guess you could say. That area of St. Martin Parish, it was kind of like a lover's lane. That's kind of where everybody-- it was pretty little lake and the girls would feel romantic. I think it was romantic or whatnot. Later that night, approximately 01:00 AM, Elmo Patrick and Eddie James Sonnier were rabbit hunting together, and they come across a couple's car. Rabbit hunting at night, huh, Woody?Woody: Yeah, right. That's not legal.Jim: Yeah. [laughs] Using a badge one of the brothers had obtained while working as a security guard and both armed with .22 caliber rifles, the two approach and enter LeBlanc's car. The victims were informed they were trespassing and that they would have to be brought to the landowner to determine if that landowner wanted to press charges. This is young kids. So, they believe that. They also confiscate each teen's driver's license to kind of further their act of, "We are the cops." Ms. Bourque and Mr. LeBlanc were then handcuffed and placed in the back seat of their own car.Woody: And they brought handcuffs too.Jim: Brought handcuffed, which tells you, [crosstalk] this wasn't their first rodeo. Leaving their own car behind, the Sonnier brothers take the teens' car and they basically drive the couple 21 miles to a remote oilfield located in Iberia Parish. And Iberia Parish, this is oilfield country. Everybody just about in Iberia Parish works in the oilfields.Woody: Except for Tabasco.Jim: Yeah, except for Tabasco. That's right. The other famous Iberia employer. Now, this is an area that was well known to the defendants. Once at the oilfield, both victims were removed from the car. David LeBlanc was taken into the woods, and they handcuffed him to a tree. Loretta Bourque was taken a short distance away, and she was raped by Elmo Sonnier. She then reluctantly agreed to have intercourse with Eddie Sonnier on the condition that they will release her and Mr. LeBlanc afterwards. Upon completion of the rapes, Patrick Sonnier removed the handcuffs and brought them back to the road where they were parked. At that point, Patrick Sonnier told his brother, he starts freaking out, and he says, "I'm going to be sent back to Angola," that's the exact quote, he had done some time in Angola, should the victims notify police. So, David LeBlanc, Loretta Bourque, were then forced to lie side by side, face down, and each were shot three times at close range in the back of the head. So, execution style, pretty much.The Sonniers then drove LeBlanc's vehicle back to the original site where the couple was first accosted in order to pick up their own vehicle. Remember, they left that at the scene.They get there and the car has a flat tire. The brothers use a jack from the LeBlanc's vehicle, and this is important. They use that jack to apply a spare tire. And that jack was later seized by police from the trunk of Sonnier's car. So, there's your evidence. These two rocket scientists use a jack.Woody: And then, put it in the--[crosstalk]Jim: In their own car, yeah. Dumbass. The brothers then destroyed the victim's driver's license. And the following day, the rifles, they dispose of those, they actually buried them in remote areas. Investigations also revealed that between $30 and $40 were stolen from the victims prior to the arrest. They noticed this money missing, and of course, they tied that back to them. The Sonniers were arrested on December 5th 1977, following a tip from a local man who reported seeing the blue Dodge Dart parked in a remote area during the early morning hours of November 5th. They were advised of their rights, taken to the sheriff's office in New Iberia. And there, Patrick Sonnier, he starts singing like a canary, signs, verbal and written confessions, and was transferred to the parish prison. While en route, he starts making other statements to the officer. So, he's singing. The following day, he even agrees to let him videotape a confession. And all three statements indicated that Patrick had participated in the abduction and had personally shot them.The police, after the basic directions from Patrick Sonnier, recovered the two rifles that he buried. Ballistic test indicated that the bullets taken from the victim's head and brass casings were from that actual rifle. So, they've got everything they need. The defendant and his brother, they get indicted on two accounts of first-degree murder. And in 1978, they basically go to court. Of course, they plead not guilty because they have nothing to lose, but they do get convicted, and they get executed. I'm going to read you just a Times-Picayune, which Times-Picayune is the--Woody: Major newspaper from New Orleans. Jim: Right. Huge, huge newspaper there. Woody: New Orleans and Mississippi area.Jim: And in 1984, they got executed. Sonnier gets executed for that double murder. And this is Elmo Sonnier. He was convicted of the slayings of Loretta Bourque and her fiancé, David LeBlanc. He was the third person executed in Louisiana in four months at that time. Robert Wayne Williams was executed December 14th for killing a Baton Rouge supermarket guard. And he was the first person executed since 1961. So, there was a big delay between '61 and--Woody: Yeah, they put the moratorium on it.Jim: Yeah. So basically, when they got out of that moratorium, they started executingeverybody. We got some people waiting in line. Woody: Tired of feeding you.Jim: That's right. And at that time, Woody and listeners, Ross Maggio was the warden at Angola. And he said that Sonnier spent his last day with Sister Helen Prejean, a New Orleans nun who served as a spiritual advisor and a female friend who was a lawyer but not involved in his case. The condemned man ate a steak dinner and was kept up to date as the five courts turned down his 11th hour pleas of stay. So, when you get executed, you basically, that last 24 hours of spent by your attorneys trying to get everyone to stay your execution. So, he didn't have any of that and they went on with it.As he was led to the execution chamber, he looked at LeBlancs, and Mr. LeBlanc, the father basically of LeBlanc that was shot and killed. He says, "I can understand the way you feel. I have no hatred in my heart as I leave this world and I ask God to forgive what I have done." He then asked LeBlanc for forgiveness. Immediately after, Godfrey Bourque, the father of the other victim, who also witnessed, said, "He didn't ask me," which is-- he obviously and rightfully felt offended for that.Both fathers sat expressionless with their arms crossed as the execution was carried out. They declined to talk to reporters afterwards. Sonnier last words were addressed to Prejean. He said, "I love you," and she replies, "I love you too." Sonnier, wearing blue jeans and a blue shirt, was then strapped to the death chair. Witnesses said he appeared to be smiling. At 12:07, his body was jolted with 2000 volts-Woody: Light it up.Jim: -of electricity, followed by 500 volts for 10 seconds. The 2000 volts was for 20. The sequence was repeated, and there was no movement after the second jolt. So, as Woody has told us in the past on this show, they don't just lift that lever and jolt you one time. They leave it up, pull it down, leave it up, pull it down.Woody: And 20 seconds is a long time.Jim: It's a long time, man. But his victims didn't even get that last 20 seconds. Sick.Woody: Can you imagine laying side by side and you pretty much know they're going to kill you, but then you hear three shots from one rifle and whoever the boy or the girl got shot first, what was the other one thinking? I mean, you know you're dead.Jim: Yeah. You went to your death scared to death. And that's just horrible. And so, you may have obviously, recognized Helen Prejean if you've listened to our show. These brothers, the Sonnier brothers, as well as Robert Wayne Williams, that was the character for Dead Man Walking, basically, where they based that character was really off of two separate people. In the opening scenes of Dead Man Walking, that's where it shows that lover's lane murder that we just told you about. And so, it was a real deal, Sister Helen Prejean, real person, she's still alive to this day. And regardless of where you sit on the death penalty, her heart's in the right place. I don't fault her. We may not see eye to eye on certain things, but I think she's a wonderful human being and still alive to this day.Woody: Yeah, she is. We'd love to have you on the show.Jim: Yeah. If you happen to be listening, Sister Prejean, we'd love to have you on and shareyour views.Woody: If one of y'all listeners know her, yeah, that would be a great show.Jim: Yeah, it really would. So, if you know her out there and get word to her that we love-- we come to her if she needs us to, no problem. And so, that is a wrap on that series. For you patron members, just a few that we're going to do just for you guys. The final, I think it's four or five that we have left to feature on that series just for you guys. And we saved some good ones for you patron members.Woody: And if you want to become a patron, go to Patreon and type in Bloody Angola. Jim: Yup.Woody: Right.Jim: That's all you got to do, it'll pull it up. We have several different tiers, of course. I know a lot of y'all like those transcriptions. We do transcribe all those episodes just for patron members. And we put them in PDF format so you can download those. You can actually print them out and you can read them like a book. Some people like to read.Woody: Yeah, I still like to read too. I think that's a pretty genius idea.Jim: Absolutely. And don't forget, as we mentioned at the beginning, vote, vote, vote.Woody: Hey, mom. I know you're listening to this because you love Bloody Angola, and I know you read every single night. My mom likes it--Jim: Love it.Woody: She's in her early-- well, I won't tell her age, but she works out every day still. Butshe listens to us when she works out.Jim: Ms. Overton, we appreciate you. Thank you. Woody: But she likes to read more.Jim: Yeah, she's a sharp lady.Woody: Mom, you can get the PDF of transcripts. Jim: That's right.Woody: We love all y'all. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. You rock. Thank you again for getting us nominated for Best History Podcast, and then, the overall best in the world, Adam Curry's People's Choice. Go to podcastawards.com and vote for us if you would, please. We only got, I think, less than two weeks left.Jim: Yeah.Woody: Hey, just to be nominated is fire. To make the finals would be sweet. To win it all--Jim: Blessing. Total blessing. And we love you, appreciate you all, y'all very much. Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.Our Sponsors:* Check out Factor and use my code bloodyangola50 for a great deal: https://www.factor75.com/ Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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The Black Rhino

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 1970 56:27

Woody Overton and Jim Chapman of Bloody Angola Podcast tell the story of Clifford Etienne and the Louisiana Prison Boxing Program at Louisiana State Penitentiary and other prisons.#cliffordetienne #theblackrhino #bloodyangolapodcast #podcastFull TranscriptBloody Angola Podcast ( THE BLACK RHINO)Jim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Bloody-Woody: -Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison.Jim: And I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: And I'm Woody Overton. Welcome, y'all, back to another episode of Bloody Angola. And we appreciate you listening and liking, subscribing, and all that good stuff.Jim: Yeah.Woody: We want to thank our Patreon members who are very instrumental in the show. Y'all stay tuned at the end of the show and we're going to talk about that some more. But, Jim, today we've got something-- We always said it'd be different. Today, this is a very, very interesting story, which I do have a lot of personal connection with.Jim: I think we can title this one The Black Rhino.Woody: The Black Rhino. Absolutely. I knew the Black Rhino when he was becoming the Black Rhino. This guy's name was Clifford Etienne. And that's, y'all, not from South Louisiana. It's E-T-I-E-N-N-E. Clifford Etienne grew up in New Iberia, Louisiana, home of tabasco. We call it affectionately the Berry. If you're from South Louisiana, they just call it the Berry. I got paternal brothers from down there and Bobby [unintelligible 00:03:03], if you're listening, shoutout, Probation And Parole, State of Louisiana.Jim: But there's not much out there either. It's the tabasco plain if you're going to New Iberia pretty much.Woody: It's growing up a lot over the years, but back then, and specifically in this time frame that I'm going to be talking about, Clifford Etienne was coming up and he was truly, basically a stud.Jim: Yeah. He dominated in wrestling. He played baseball. Woody: Linebacker in football.Jim: Track and field. He threw the disc and the shot. Woody: 6'2", 290 pounds.Jim: Big boy. And was recruited by LSU, Nebraska, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, which these days are dominant, but back in those days were extremely dominant.Woody: And recruited as a linebacker. And he just was a stud-stud. But sometimes, life happens and people try cocaine or different things or they hang with the wrong crowd. And that's what Clifford started to do. He could have had the world as his oyster, and he would it in later years and seems like history repeats itself, unfortunately. Back then, on a certain day in Lafayette, Louisiana, when Clifford was a young man--Jim: Yeah, he was 18. As most 18-year-olds do, he was getting away with what he could, and him and four friends decided it would be a good idea to rob some customers at a shopping mall in Lafayette.Woody: It was the only shopping mall in Lafayette at the time. And that was in 1988. I was there in 1989. And when USL was USL, now it's ULL. Go, Cajuns.Jim: Yes.Woody: But they robbed some people. And ultimately, he got busted.Jim: Yeah, he got sentenced to 40 years. The first stint was Bloody Angola. That was where he first went.Woody: And 40 years, y'all, would have been the minimum on armed robbery. It carries up to 99 years in the state of Louisiana. I think he was like 18 years old, he gets sentenced and they ship him to Bloody Angola.Jim: That's right. Eventually, after a few transfers, he ends up at DCI.Woody: That's Dixon Correctional Institute, y'all. That's where I would come to know him. What happened was I was working the working cell block, which y'all heard me talk about before. It's different than admin seg, because there's two men to a cell. But working cell block is where you only get sent for major rule violations. Basically, for street charges, whether you're smuggling, dope, you attack an officer, you rape somebody, or you fight with weapons. Now, I had two tiers of the working cell block that I ran and I can remember distinctly, Clifford Etienne was in the cell with a guy from Livingston Parish, a white guy from Livingston Parish. Now, Clifford Etienne is a black man, and they were in the next to the last cell at the end of the tier. The tier only had cells on one side, y'all, face the screen windows. They had a couple of black and white TVs down the tier.But I would stop and talk to them all the time because the guy from the LP, I knew him from the street, and I knew him back from the club days. We knew some of the same people. You're not supposed to become friends and stuff with the convicts, which I submit to you that when you are working 12-hour shifts in two on, two off, three on, two off, two on, three off, but even on my days off, the Department of Corrections was always short and they had an on call list. Basically, I could work 30 days a month.But I'm doing time just like they're doing time. I was doing time just like they were doing time. They locked those doors behind you on that 12-hour shift, you can only shower them and feed them and have nurse calls so much and shit gets a little boring. So, I would stop, and I did a couple of years back there-- and I say it, I'm like a convict, but it [Jim chuckles] really was like doing time. Did a couple of years back there. When you get locked up on the working cell block, once you get locked up, you have to do 90 days without a low court or a high court write-up. You go back before the board and they basically hear your case as to whether or not you can be released in general population. Well, the problem with that is, y'all, in the working cell blocks, basically, they're worst of the worst because these are people that can't even follow the basic rules in prison, even the small rules, and the ones that, like I said, were back there for serious charges. Now, the white guy in the cell was back there for having or suspicion of having sex with a female guard. That's a no-no, but it is what it is, right?[laughter]Woody: If you can get over and do what you do, that's what they're going to do. Now, his cellie was Clifford Etienne. So, I began to talk to him. Look, this is a massive dude. Now, I was 6'2", probably 250 at the time. And he's 6'2", 300 pounds but he was all muscle. I mean, like solid as a rock. But he was a really cool dude, and I say that. I know he robbed people and shit like that, but he could have been an asshole to me or anything else, but I would hang out and stand in front of the cell late at night and shit. I'm entertainment for them also. We were talking and I found out that Etienne was a boxer, and he was actually on DCI's boxing team, but also found out that he was an accomplished artist.He asked me when we're talking one night, said, "You married? You dating someone?" I said, "I'm dating someone." "Can you give me a picture of her?" "Bro, I'm not bringing you a picture of my girlfriend." [Jim laughs] He said, "No. I'm an artist. I'm going to draw a picture and you can give it to her." So, the next time I came back to work, I got a little snapshot and I gave it to him. The next evening, I came back to work, and he had hand sketched an exact likeness of this girl. And I can't remember her last name. I think her first name was Debbie. It was just fucking piece of artwork and I was blown away. It's on a basic piece of paper done in pencil. I'm like, "Bruh, you got talent." I didn't know what I would come to find out later on and what we're going to talk about.Also, I talked to him about boxing because I like boxing, and I like to box. Both of my grandfathers went to college for boxing, one at USL and one for LSU. They boxed on the college boxing teams. I asked him, I said, "You get into a fight--" just more like bullshit. I said, "If you're going to hit somebody." He said, "Woody, if you're going to hit somebody, I want you to hit him hard as you can in the stomach. Don't let him know it's coming. You rear back, full body swing. Hit him in the stomach." And I said, "Why is that?" He said, "Because if you do it right, you're going to knock the air out of him. Then, they're defenseless. You can just beat him to a pulp."Jim: Yeah.Woody: He would go on to become the Interprison Boxing Champion for the state ofLouisiana. Y'all, each prison has their own boxing team, and it's big shit.Jim: Yeah. I'm going to tell you about his reputation in prison and a little bit about a trainer that had actually started working with him in prison. There was a guy named Valrice Cooper. And Valrice Cooper had a nickname. It was Whoop. They called him Whoop because of boxing. Whoop, whoop. That's how he would say when you punch. It was a whoop. Everybody knew Whoop in the prison system. He was a steward of the Louisiana prison boxing scene. He was an inmate himself. Whoop, he didn't have the pleasure of meeting Etienne until after the boxer-- He was already the most dominant prison fighter in Louisiana. As Woody said, these different prisons have their own boxing teams. Angola has one, DCI has one. There's one in North Louisiana.Woody: Hunt.Jim: Hunt has one. This is a big deal in prison, these boxing teams. Whoop was the guywho kind of managed that, even as an inmate.Woody: Basically, helped Etienne perfect his craft better.Jim: Absolutely. He had heard about this guy, this 6'2", 290-pound fighter, and he started working with Etienne. From the first second he saw him, he could tell from his movement, he had a ton of natural talent. He countered right, he stepped back right, he circled correctly. As a matter of fact, Whoop would describe him as a prison version of Muhammad Ali, y'all. That's how good he was. Anybody describes you as Muhammad Ali, you're good. But theprison version of Muhammad Ali from a guy who really knew that sport was amazing. Etienne continued to dominate in the prison world. He actually won 30 bouts, never lost.Woody: Y'all, real quick. Certainly, they would practice amongst themselves at Dixon Correctional Institute, etc.Jim: Shadow box.Woody: Right. Well, you're locked in a cell, you got a lot of time to shadow box. Jim: [laughs] That's right.Woody: These bouts we're talking about that, they would actually go to other prisons, or sometimes they would host it there, and they would fight against other prisoners in the state. At the end of the year, whoever had the most wins got the banner.Jim: That's right. And these were big deals. As a matter of fact- Woody: Huge.Jim: -family of these prisoners would go to the boxing matches and they would have to pay. They would have to buy tickets. It was $5 for adults, $3 for children back then, and you would watch as if you were watching sanctioned event on HBO.Woody: Even though they wore headgear, the bouts were three 3-minute rounds. I would bet you people love to go see the radio because they care about getting hurt and laying up in an infirmary in the air conditioner rather than a cell block. I bet you these guys got in there-- I wish I would have got to see one and just tried to absolutely annihilate each other.Jim: I'm sure there was a lot of first-round knockouts. Headgear or no headgear. Woody: Headgear really doesn't mean shit.Jim: [laughs]Woody: It's not like you're wearing the NFL helmet.Jim: Oh, yeah. Some of these people are lifers, y'all. Look, they're in there and they're swinging. You've heard on Real Life Real Crime, Woody described like prison muscle. It's a totally different type of muscle and all these guys had it. He fought in the heavyweight and the super heavyweight divisions. So, he was fighting the baddest of the bad, the biggest of the big-Woody: And beating them.Jim: -and beating them. Just never losing, 30 bouts inside. And that gets around. Outside of the prison system, Don King and all these guys are hearing about this Clifford Etienne and how he is the toughest man in prison and winning all these bouts. After his 10th year in prison, he gets paroled.Woody: Right, which is basically, y'all, I would tell you that that's because of the outside influences from these promoters. They were like, "This guy can be heavyweight champion of the world." They go in for the parole board, "Look, we got contracts. We're going to train him. We're going to keep him on the straight and narrow. He can be on parole if need be, but we need permission to get his boxing license and everything else."Jim: Well, let me tell you how promoters think. Number one, you've got an extremely talented individual to start with. He's getting paroled from prison. Here's your chance. I don't know if this is fact, but I would imagine his success helped with his parole because in a parole board's mind, this guy can probably actually rehabilitate and change his life because he's going to have unique opportunities not everybody is going to have when they're released from prison. He was well known.Woody: Let me digress for a second. The reason he was on the working cell block, he got in a fight with a guard, with a correctional officer--Jim: Named Woody Overton.Woody: No, it wasn't me.[laughter]Woody: I wouldn't have fought that dude. [laughter]Woody: He got in a fight with a correction officer. Now, when they went to the board hearing, and I remember telling me this, he had already been on the boxing team. So, the board considered his hands deadly weapons. So, they charged him with fighting with deadly weapons on a correction officer.Jim: Oh, wow.Woody: That's why he got sent to the hole for that. Now, he did his 90 days, maybe a little bit longer, maybe he went twice, I don't remember. But he got out while I was still there. He was good. He was locked on the block. He was good. He was never any problem. He was actually a pretty cool dude. He got out. You know why he got out too? He wanted to box again. He was like, "Fuck that. Imma going to behave. I know my future is in boxing."Jim: Yeah, he was just the shit, y'all, in the Louisiana prison system and really the national-- He was well known in prisons all over the country as probably the best boxer to ever come out of prison. You're talking about-- look, Sonny Liston came out of prison, and he was getting a lot of comparisons to Sonny Liston. These promoters, they're not only salivating at the chance to get a hold to a guy who has an extreme amount of talent, he also had a hell of a story, and they loved that. He had a nickname in prison, which was the Black Rhino. Come on, y'all, if that don't scare you before you fight the 6'2", 290-pound boxer, I don't know what does.Woody: Basically, he got that because the most dangerous animal in the world, the Black Rhinoceros or the Black Rhino was the name that he embraced. Like Jim said, these promoters, holy shit, now you got the Black Rhino coming out of prison that would sell tickets regardless.Jim: Look, you can't spin a better story with all this. He gets out and he turns pro in 1998. Woody: That was five years after I left him or after the last time I saw him.Jim: So, how does he do? Well, his first four opponents, he knocked them out. As a matter of fact, three of those first four was inside of the first ring.Woody: He's cold cocking people.Jim: Cold cocking people. Ring Magazine actually named him-- believe it or not, y'all, hewas later named The Most Exciting Heavyweight Fighter of the 2000s. Woody: That's true.Jim: How about that?Woody: He absolutely was destroying people. I remember late 80s, early 90s, when Tyson was coming up, and when pay per view had first come out, and we had all put up $20 and got a keg of beer, and he knocked out Spinks in like 30 seconds or whatever it was. Black Rhino was doing the same thing. A lot of the times, when big guys fight, they'll get tired and they'll hug on each other and stuff. Black Rhino didn't have time to get tired. He was annihilating people, like Tyson did when he was young.Jim: Yes. And loving it. And what's he doing? He's living his best life, y'all. He's making tons of money. He's knocking people out for a living. Everybody's courting him. And he does what sadly, a lot of-- seems like it's not just athletes, but it seems like they struggle with this because there's so much of an influx of money under such a short period of time.Woody: And fame.Jim: And fame and all of that, that he starts dabbling in cocaine. Woody: Right. A line here, a line there.Jim: Yeah. Give me a little bit of that sugar, whatever you tell them.Woody: In the beginning, you think you can handle, it makes you feel even better. You're already on top of the world. Remember, you came from a working cell block. First of all, you got out in 10 years instead of 40. You come from a working cell block. You build yourself up to the prison boxing system, and now you're building yourself up as one of the top heavyweights in the world.Jim: That's right. And he continues on. He continues knocking people out, and eventually he scoops up the IBA Continental heavyweight title. He actually won that title in Baton Rouge.Woody: In Baton Rouge. It was at the Belle of Baton Rouge in the atrium. I didn't get to go for whatever reason, but I remember when it was happening and the white guy from the cell reached out to me, said, "I can get you tickets. Do you want to come see him?" And I couldn't go for whatever reason. But yeah, he won that there. Even though that's not like the biggest championship in the world, it's still a championship belt.Jim: That's right. And continues on. Eventually, he suffers his first loss, that was in March of 2001, and y'all, it was a beating. He actually got floored seven times in that bout.Woody: Knocked down seven times, and on the eighth, I think the referee finally stopped it, but he said it was just basically like a blood bath. But Black Rhino never gave it up. You knocked me down two times, I'm probably going to stay down. Seven times, but he kept getting up and fighting back.Jim: That's it.Woody: Finally, the ref is like, "Number eight, I got to stop this shit, he's going to kill him."Jim: Yeah, he went out on his shield and never quit. After that bout, you may start to think, "Well, that was it." Well, no. Etienne couldn't be stopped. He ended up fighting six more bouts after his loss and knocked everybody out. He was again the talk of the boxing scene. When you become that much of the talk of the boxing scene, eventually you're going to run into somebody you got to fight.Woody: When he was talking to the boxing scene, basically, besides being the Black Rhino, and he was always compared to young Mike Tyson.Jim: Yeah. They actually knew each other before the opportunity showed its face and always got along. If you're a Tyson fan, you would know that he grew up very rough. He was very similar to Etienne, except for Cus D'Amato discovered Tyson before he had gotten so far out of hand that his whole life would have been spent in prison. Much younger when Tyson got discovered at 12 years old by Cus D'Amato. Etienne and Tyson had a respect for each other because they both came from the streets, they were both super tough, both amazing boxers. And in 2003-Woody: Memphis, Tennessee. Jim: That's it. Tyson come a calling.Woody: Tyson came calling. That was the first fight-- if y'all remember this, that was the first fight that Tyson had the tribal tattoos on his face.Jim: Yes. If Tyson wasn't scary enough, he comes out-- and look, Etienne, I'm sure, was intimidated just like-- Tyson can intimidate anybody. I don't care how tough you are. Yeah. Except for Holyfield maybe. [laughs]Woody: Yeah, he bit his ear off.Jim: He did do that. In 2003, Tyson, the pinnacle of boxing and the Etienne fight, and Tysonbeats the shit out of Etienne in 48 seconds.Woody: Now, the same guy from the LP, I talked to him after that, and he told me that what happened is one of the first punches that Tyson landed hit the Black Rhino on his eardrum and it busted his inner ear. So, Etienne's equilibrium was off, and he couldn't even defend himself.Jim: Yeah. Could you imagine how hard Tyson hits to bust your freaking inner eardrum? Woody: In one punch. To Etienne's credit, he tried to stand and do whatever, shit, your roomspinning. I can't imagine that. Tyson, he ain't going to quit punching.Jim: [laughs] No, he ain't. And I will never forget the interview, because actually, I can distinctly picture myself when I watched that live. I actually watch that fight live. After the broadcast, Jim Gray, who was a famous interviewer in boxing, pulls Tyson and he says, "What did you think of Etienne?" and all that, "And how did your training go?" Tyson says, "I broke my back last week." [laughs] And I'll never forget. I was like, "What?" It was bizarre, y'all.Woody: That's crazy.Jim: He supposedly broke his back in training.Woody: The reason they were fighting in Memphis, Tennessee, Tyson couldn't get licensed in Nevada or anywhere else because of the rape allegations and all that.Jim: Yeah. If you're getting a little upset about Etienne because he lost and all that, don't cry for him too much.Woody: He made a million bucks.Jim: [chuckles] Literally a million bucks in 48 seconds.Woody: Paid for 48 seconds, I think I could last for 48 seconds. He might have hit me in the back of the head, but I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off. For 48 seconds, I'm going to give you a show for a million dollars.Jim: For a million dollars.Woody: I'll fight Tyson a day for a million dollars.Jim: I'm telling you. Yeah. Etienne gets that million bucks. He unfortunately does what a lot of people who get money that never had money do. And that is he blows it. He buys sports cars, jewelry, multiple houses, and he actually got into a couple of businesses that suffered. He was in a busing company. It went nowhere. He opened a restaurant-- or he actually started a restaurant that never opened. He did the cardinal sin in any business which is, didn't pay his taxes.Woody: Right.Jim: I don't care who you are, ask Al Capone about that.Woody: Tax man cometh.Jim: Tax man cometh. So, he's spiraling downward.Woody: Yeah. He's not surrounded by the best people either, taking advantage of him. Like I said, he never had so many cousins.Jim: Okay. He's going along in life, Etienne, and he's making a lot of bad decisions. At some point, he decides it is a good idea to go get some money as he was spending all of his. [crosstalk] He figures, what better place to get money than a check cashing place, right?Woody: Genius idea.Jim: The only problem was he didn't have no checks. Woody: He didn't have a checkbook.Jim: He didn't have anything to cash.Woody: I'll tell you what he did have, he had a pistol. Jim: He had a pistol.Woody: He had a cocaine habit.Jim: And a bad cocaine habit.Woody: Getting as high as fuck, yeah.Jim: That's right. Etienne goes to a check cashing place in Baton Rouge with a gun, and he pulls the weapon, and he decides he's going to hold up this check cashing place, and he gets a little-- I guess you could say a little pushback on that from the check cashing people. He takes a gun, and he shoots it in the air, and he says, "I will kill you, bitch." That's exactly what he said, because they have it on recording because she was dialing 911 while this was going on.Woody: She was an African American.Jim: African American female. Eventually, he gets in his hands $2,000 after he fires thatthing in the air, and he hauls ass out of there.Woody: Right. Unbeknownst to him, the silent alarm had been hit and Baton Rouge PD was responding in force. They met him in the parking lot.Jim: They did. They were there really fast for a specific reason. And that was that same day, sadly, an officer in Baton Rouge named Terry Melancon who was serving a warrant with some other officers in Baton Rouge was tragically killed.Woody: They were making the entry-- we call it a high-risk warrant. It was a narcotics warrant. They were making entry in the door, and he was shot and killed. Rest in peace, brother. I was on the SWAT team at the time that happened. We went from serving high-risk warrants narcotics-- We used to do them every day without the SWAT team because the SWAT because it took so long. The policy got changed after that. Any high-risk entry warrant, you had to use the SWAT team. Rest in peace, brother.Jim: Yeah. It was really just more bad timing for Etienne as this was going on, they were able to easily get there.Woody: Before they got there, he's trying to make an escape. Well, you know what? I think he [unintelligible 00:31:37] this time, he goes rob a check cash in place with a piece of shit pistol, and he leaves, and he's trying to make his getaway, and he makes two attempts.Jim: That's right. An officer with the Baton Rouge City Police Department, who was in an Exxon station across the street from the cash door, received a report of an armed robbery in progress. Comes over his radio, and the officer observed one of the check cashing employees actually outside of the business at this point, and he could tell she was panicking. At this point, he goes across the street and he starts talking to her and he says, "Did you report an armed robbery?" And she says, "Yes." A bunch of police officers at this time are pulling up. It becomes pandemonium. Etienne escapes into a little wooded area, and when he comes out of that wooded area, he sees a vehicle, and he just jumps in the vehicle. I guess he thought he was going to hot-wire it or whatever. He didn't realize when he jumped in there were two children in the back of that vehicle.He goes to start it, realizes, "Oh, shit, there's no keys." The lady had ran into this beauty supply place and just left her kids in there while, I guess, she was quickly grabbing shampoo or something. He goes to steal that vehicle, realizes the keys aren't on in it, and the cops are kind of on to him at this point. They're pursuing him through the woods, and he's panicking. He's in a bind and--Woody: Still armed.Jim: Yeah, still armed. He immediately exits the vehicle, and he has his weapon in his hand, and he aims it at two police officers.Woody: Not only does he aim it- Jim: He pulls the trigger. Woody: -pulls the trigger.Jim: And the gun jams.Woody: Click. It's probably a piece of shit, high-tech 9-millimeter or whatever. I'm sure if it was an expensive weapon, he could have traded for coke instead of trying to rob a cash store. He pulled it and pulled it again.Jim: He panics again, obviously, because at this point, y'all, Etienne just tried to shoot two police officers. If it wasn't for that gun jamming, he would have shot them, possibly killed them. So, he panics. He runs to a gold Pontiac Grand Am. He opens the door, and there's a driver in there. He puts the gun to the driver's head. He says, "Get out." The driver, he protests this. Why? Because his two young children are in the vehicle.Woody: It's kiddie daycare around there.Jim: That's it. Etienne pulls him out of the car physically, throws him to the ground, jumps in the car, and starts to drive away in reverse at a high rate of speed. He just basically goes backwards. He gets about 60ft. The vehicle hits a curb, and it stalls. Officers approach the vehicle with the weapons drawn, and they apprehend Etienne. How do you think that apprehension went?Woody: I don't know, man. I mean, his weapon's jammed, and what we call a felony stop, I'm sure Black Rhino ended up getting some dirt in his face.Jim: Oh, I can look. And then, don't forget, they are already dealing with that day a police officer getting shot and killed.Woody: Absolutely. And you just tried to kill--Jim: And you just tried to kill two more. If I'm a police officer, you're getting a fist to the face. Woody: Yeah, well, definitely.Jim: Swim would have punched him.Woody: Yes, Swim.Jim: [laughs]Woody: Swim would have gave him some justice, that was just us. But he might have sprung a leak too. Anyway, he gets arrested, armed robbery, two counts of attempted first-degree murder on police officers. So, God or somebody was taking care of them and those officers letting that pistol jam.Jim: Amen.Woody: He gets prosecuted, y'all, by the Baton Rouge's DA's office. And the prosecutor was Prem Burns. Now, I don't think we've ever talked about her on Bloody Angola, but I know her. I've been in the courtroom with her. She is fire. They had their best prosecutor on it, Hillar Moore's best prosecutor. The DA generally, in bigger parishes, is a political figurehead who oversees all the cases, but they have their top lieutenants or generals, whatever you want to call them, that handle the big cases. Prem Burns was the one.Jim: And well known for the serial killing.Woody: Yeah. For Derrick Todd Lee. As well as every top case in East Baton Rouge. She said that across 34 years and 100 plus felony cases and even taking down meddling cartel members and serial killers that she recalls looking at Etienne and thinking, that dude is huge, she remembers the day he was sentenced, he said something to her like, "I'm so sorry. The drugs were just really bad for me." But Burns also remember the 911 call and the words Etienne barked out that were recorded on security footage says, "I'm going to kill you." She remembers using that against him in her opening remarks. She remembers the jury convicting the boxer quickly and easily.Years later, the prosecutor picked apart Etienne's processing the trial, and he said he received insufficient representation. She was like, "Dude, you could have Johnny Cochrane and you weren't getting off on this charge." And the jury are possibly in prejudice. She was like, "Your victims were black. You're black. It's not a racial issue." Anyway, he got sentenced to forever this time, but for luck, he would have been on death row. Y'all, he got 160 years. And guess where he was going? Bloody-Jim: -Angola.[chuckles]Jim: No doubt about it. And look, let's recap real quick. This is a guy that just a couple of years-- as a matter of fact, a year before this, had just gotten a million dollars and fought arguably the most-- I would say the second most popular boxer of all time outside of Muhammad Ali, which was Mike Tyson. Definitely the most popular boxer in my era, by far. And now, you just got sentenced to forever, as Woody aptly put it, the rest of your life, pretty much in Angola. Etienne actually, in 2004, for whatever reason, applied for a pardon to Mike Foster, the then governor, which was denied, obviously. I don't know if he thought his popularity might get him a pardon, but it wasn't working with Mike Foster.Woody: I think he was also trying to say stuff about traumatic brain injury and CTE and all that other bullshit.Jim: Right. Look, here's why I don't buy that at all. I definitely think that brain injury from boxing or pro football, absolutely, it affects your decision making and all those sorts of things. But you were doing this at 18. I mean, you were robbing people at 18.Woody: This lawyer said he's entitled to a new sentence because the CTE should be a major consideration. He said, "It's not his fault. The science wasn't there ahead of time. So, he did not do all this bullshit." I'm not even going touch on that anymore.Jim: Yeah, that's ridiculous. Now, one thing we haven't mentioned to you is a unique-- and when I tell y'all this is a unique and an absolutely God-given talent is his ability in the painting world. Art, paintings, canvas.Woody: I told you about the drawing. I didn't know that he was a painter also, but he drew that picture of that girl for me.Jim: Yeah. If you're a Patreon member of any sort, we're going to put this on Patreon. It's just some examples of his artwork. It is unbelievable, y'all. God definitely touched him and gave him a talent with artwork. So, we're going to put that up there. Look, Woody mentioned this earlier, and I want to read this to y'all. Woody had mentioned, "Hey, he was a nice guy."Woody: Yeah. He was cool.Jim: Great personality. Cool dude. I'm going to read you a letter that he wrote to a fan. This is in 2019, so this is fairly recent. I'm also going to put this up on Patreon. But a fan had just wrote to him and asked him for an autograph, basically, a boxing fan. He said, "Sorry I took so long getting back to you. Just rediscovered the letter you sent me at the end of May. I always take time writing anyone back since they took time to write me. All letters are screened for contraband, and because of some drug heads attempts to smuggle contraband in here, the mailroom discarded the index card you sent me to sign. So, I'm sending you this large piece of paper signed by me. To answer your questions, I am still healthy, and I look forward to a better future. I WILL GET OUT OF HERE." And he says that in all caps."I paint and I cut hair almost every day. Number three, I'm not in a cell. I'm in a dormitory with a bit over 100 guys. I do watch TV sometimes, mostly news and sports. I have a TV in the barber shop where I work. Number four, my whole boxing career was an interesting story. Started writing a book about it, but I haven't finished. Number five, fighting Mike Tyson was like fighting the other 30 fighters I fought. It was a job that took care of my family. I never got into all the hype. I met Tyson years before they even talked about us fighting each other. Number six, the most fun I had in boxing ring was every time the referee raised my hand as the winner after all that hard training. You take care of yourself, and I wish you and yours all the best. Clifford Etienne."Woody: Pretty cool.Jim: Reading that letter, that don't sound like a guy they tried to kill two police officers, rob a check cashing place. So, when Woody mentioned that, "Yeah, he seemed like a cool, nice guy," reading that letter that sounds like a guy that is out of prison right now, is living his best life, just doesn't sound like that type of character, does it?Woody: But that cocaine shit, does funny shit, even less [crosstalk] to people and will never take away the fact.Jim: Nose gold.Woody: Not only did he try to kill those two officers, but who knows what would have happened to those kids in the car, etc., had he not wrecked it, and stalled it out. But when he went back in the prison this time, y'all, it wasn't without incident. He had issues, he survived an attack. He would start painting, but we'll talk about that. He would start painting. The last I had heard of him before we talked about this, was I was watching something on the Rodeo about Angola Radio and they had him selling his paintings and they were street scenes and murals. Now, you're not allowed to make money off your crimes. He's not painting trying to kill two cops, but he's painting like murals-- Not murals, but like oil paints. Shit would cost you $20,000 in a gallery, and it was fantastic. The one I saw was of a second line that's a funeral procession for those from Louisiana where they play the music, the jazz band does it and they go behind the coffin and all that. But he was very, very good at it. And his paintings are hanging all across the world, people commissioned to do paintings, etc. But even when he was in the painting room one time, somebody tried to kill him.Jim: Yeah. So bad in fact that he had to get transferred.Woody: Right.Jim: I do want to mention on those paintings, a lot of people may be surprised to know thatone of his paintings hangs in the New Orleans Police Department. Woody: Oh, I didn't know this.Jim: Sure enough, yeah, I found that somewhere. [laughs] Woody: Only Jim Chapman can get that shit up.Jim: I found that somewhere. There's a picture online where the two New Orleans PD officers are posing in the police department and his painting is hanging. I guess to them, it's an example of convicts have talent too somewhere. God touches us all, gives us all unique talents, and that was his. And it's just a shame. In addition to his boxing, which was also a unique talent.Woody: I'm going to digress for a second when I said he attacked a correctional officer with fists, I believe now, I'm thinking back on-- I think it was just another inmate. But instead of being charged with a regular fist fight, which wouldn't send you to working cell block, they charged him for fighting with weapons because his hands were considered deadly weapons because he's such a renowned boxer.Jim: I believe it.Woody: Y'all, he would go on-- after that attack, he talks about surviving COVID when they put them all in cells. When everybody else in the world is trying to be separated, they were locking them down. He talks about that, but at some point after the attack, another inmate, a friend of his, told him, say, "Hey, man, basically you got to get shit together." I mean, he'd let himself go, he'd gained weight, he was dressing sloppily. And Etienne listened to him. So, he started dressing better. He shaved his head bald. He started to exercise every day at 5:00 in the morning. He said he stayed away from rats or dudes, they would never amount to shit in their lives. That friend asked him, "What do you need to start painting again?" Etienne told him. Two weeks later, the supplies arrived like magic, canvas boards, paints and brushes. The friend told Etienne, "You're the Black Rhino. The man who went from prison to pinnacle boxing." Eventually, Etienne returned to the painting room, hearing or no hearing, he had to move forward. Now, talk about his hearing, y'all, I told you his eardrum got busted.Jim: By Mike Tyson.Woody: By Mike Tyson, and his equilibrium was still off and all that. But he to this day paints. Jim and I have had several offers to attend the Angola Radio, and I said that's the last fucking place you'll ever catch me on the face of this earth because of all the people I've put up there. But if I ever do go, I'm going to go see the Black Rhino.Jim: There you go.Woody: And I guarantee he remembers--[crosstalk]Jim: We need to do that trip soon, and that would make for a great episode. Incidentally, we do want to welcome Woody back. Last week, of course, I flew solo for you Patreon members.Woody: I appreciate you doing that.Jim: So, we did a bonus episode. It's only up on Patreon, so if you're curious to hear about it was called Iron Mike.Woody: Iron Mike.Jim: It's about a guy that could fight in prison for sure, but it's just an absolutely crazy story of a guy who killed three inmates inside of Angola and just some amazing stuff there. But Woody was on a special assignment, which in the future we'll be able to tell everybody about. And I also recorded another episode that I'll be dropping as a bonus episode. It's Boss Bitches Part 2. But I'm glad to have Woody back now because I have to freaking think all by myself, brother. [laughs]Woody: I appreciate it but tell them about Boss Bitches 2.Jim: Yes, Boss Bitches 2. Of course, if you listen to the first one, we feature Martha Stewart, M. Diddy, and a bunch of other lady convicts. And this one, much of the same. It's four other lady convicts. Look, join Patreon and you'll find out who they are. How about that?Woody: Y'all, you go and check it out. We have numerous bonus episodes. Jim, I appreciate you covering me while I'm gone.Jim: No worries, man.Woody: The bonus episodes are fire, and as are all Bloody Angola. But the Patreon, wehave different tier levels now each, go look it up. It'll be in the show notes.Jim: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned it, because I want to shout out-- We've got over 130 members now. We're blessed to have that. They support us. We couldn't do this without them. So, we're going to read out real quick each of our Tie Down and Warden Team members, give them of a shoutout. Just to tell you really fast are what our teams include. The Warden Team is our top tier. You get ad-free episodes, obviously, early access to these episodes. You get full transcripts of all the Bloody Angola Thursday regular drops. Any shows that we do that are live, you get automatic VIP access. And you get a free piece of Bloody Angola of merch every quarter. So, four times a year, we're sending you something. I know I've sent out a bunch of merch lately to a bunch of people that are our Warden Team members, I appreciate y'all so much. If you're a Warden Team member, you haven't got that first piece of merch, please just message me and we'll get it to you.Woody: If you're a Patreon member on any level-- because it's a lot y'all, but it's very important to us. If we miss something, we're human beings. Please, please message us, check into it.Jim: Yes, that's our Warden Team. We also have our Tie Down Team, which they get ad-free episodes, early access, full transcripts of those Thursday drops, and they also get our Sally Port companion episodes like the Boss Bitches that we're going to drop as a bonus for them. Woody is going to read our Tie Down Teams, and I'm going to read our Warden Teams today.Woody: And the Tie Down Team gets you--Jim: That gets you the ad-free episodes, the early access, the full transcripts, and the Sally Port companion episodes.Woody: Carol Hagen, you are a love. We appreciate you for being a Tie Down Team member. I hope you're enjoying your benefits. We appreciate you so much. All right, Kirsten Dahl. Now, Kirsten has been a Lifer forever, and she used to send me pickles and all kinds of stuff, Jim.Jim: There you go.Woody: But thank you, Kirsten, for supporting Bloody Angola also. We really, really love and appreciate you. You're awesome. Lisa Stevens, I know who you are. Thank you for being a Tie Down Team member. We love and appreciate you so much. And Tina Johnson. Tina, thank you for being a Tie Down team member. You rock. You kick ass. And we appreciate you. We couldn't do without you. Ms. Julie Easterday. Julie, thank you so much for being a Tie Down Team member. Enjoy those benefits, sweetie.Jim: All right. We also want to thank our Warden Team members. Our Warden Team is our top tier. You just can't get any more than what we give those Warden Team members. They are high support. Look, if you can't even be a Patreon member, we still love you and appreciate you.Woody: Absolutely.Jim: But we really, really appreciate the support of all our Patreon team, especially ourWarden Team members.Woody: Especially in these hard times when eggs are $9 a dozen and you take the time to subscribe, we're going to hook you up.Jim: That's right. So, Melissa Jewel, thank you so much for being a Warden Team member. Ms. Christine Spence.Woody: Thank you, Christine.Jim: Thank you so very much for being a Warden Team member. And how about Ms. AmberMorrow?Woody: Ms. Amber. Thank you. We love you. We appreciate you.Jim: 100%. Ms. Lisa Marks.Woody: Ms. Lisa Marks, we don't even have a term for you. You know we love you.Jim: Double Warden Team member. [laughs] She's just amazing. Thank you so much. Love you. Mandy Oliver.Woody: Mandy Oliver.Jim: Ms. Mandy.Woody: Thank you so much. She's awesome.Jim: Leah [unintelligible [00:53:53].Woody: A part-time researcher, full-time crime junkie. Jim: And hellraiser. [laughs]Woody: You don't want to mess with Leah. Leah, thank you so much.Jim: That's right. That's our Warden Team and we really appreciate the support of all of those members. We're going to be shouting out as many as we can every week here going forward. Thank you so much. And until next time, I'm Jim Chapman.Woody: I'm Woody Overton.Jim: Your host of Bloody-Woody: Angola.Jim: A podcast 142 years in the making.Woody: A Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. Jim and Woody: Peace.[chuckles]Jim: Bloody Angola is an Envision Podcast Production in partnership with Workhouse Connect. Music produced and composed by Alfe Derouen in Studio 433, with vocals by Thomas Cain. Created and hosted by Jim Chapman and Woody Overton.[Bloody Angola theme]Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

1954 Through the Inmates Eyes