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parshat ki tavo (Deuteronomy 26) a recording of a discussion between Geoffrey Stern and Rabbi Adam Mintz on Clubhouse as they explore the roots of the concept of the Chosen People looking at the Favored sons and wives of Genesis and at the concept of Covenant and antecedent Hittite suzerainty treaties. Join us as we ask whether Tevya was right and should God choose someone else for a change? Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/343219 Transcript: Geoffrey Stern  00:00 This is Madlik, and we do disruptive Torah, which means that we look at one specific verse or thought in the weekly portion, and maybe look at it with new eyes, new lenses, and maybe taking it in a new direction that's not totally traditional, or that is not the one that we all grew up with. But today, I'm hoping to be very interactive, because the subject matter today cuts to the core of the Jewish project. And that is this question of being a chosen people. And my guess is that whether personally, or as a part of the Jewish people, all of us have, in one way or the other had to address what it means to be chosen, and therefore should have an opinion, on what chosen is, and and that opinion can go all the way from, it's a wonderful thing to it's probably the worst idea that we ever had. And I think Tevya summed it up very well, as he many times does. And he turned to God and he said, "Dear God, couldn't you choose someone else for a change?", because he understood the dark side of being chosen. But in any case, we begin on Deuteronomy, chapter 26: 18-19. And what will be surprising is how rare it is, for Chosenness, to even be mentioned. So it says, and the Lord has affirmed this day that you are as he promised you, his treasured people, "Am Segula", who shall observe all his commandments, and that he will set you in fame and renown and glory, high above all the nations that he has made, and that you shall be as he promised a holy people to the Lord your God." So in this one verse, we have this rare mention of "Am Segula", and I'll explain how rare it is. It only occurs in four other verses in the five books of Moses, we have a linkage to observing the commandment. So there's an obligatory aspect of being chosen. And then to us moderns, I think we have the most challenging part of being chosen. And that is that he will set you in fame and renown and glory high above all the nations. And that is the triumphalism, the exclusionism, of what it means to be chosen. And then it finishes and says that you will be a holy people. So I'm going to start with you, Rabbi.   Adam Mintz  02:58 So thank you, Geoffrey. It's a great topic. And I wonder about the relationship between being chosen, and being holy, the Torah tell us in the book of Vayikra (Leviticus), that we should be holy, "Kidoshim Tehiyu" . And the question is, does God choose us because we're holy? Or does God choose us, in spite of the fact that we're not always holy? Now, first of all, I think we need to break this down an to say, what does it mean to be holy? Rashi says, on the verse that says we should be holy, holy means to be separate Holy means to recognize that we're not like everybody else. We don't do like everybody else all the time. Sometimes we have to be different. We need to be holy, we need to be seperate. But what's interesting, and this is an idea that's emphasized on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. That is the idea of the promise that God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that promises that even though you're not always holy, even though you're not always going to do the right thing, I have chosen you to be my people. I have chosen you to be my people in good times and bad times. In return for that, you choose me to be your God. So I think I'd like to talk about that today. And that's the idea. Does God choose us even when we don't deserve to be chosen? And I think what's amazing about the story is if you read the Torah, that seems to be that God chooses us even if we don't actually deserve to be chosen.   Geoffrey Stern  04:44 Well, that is certainly going to come out today as we explore the sources. But certainly, whether we are distinct because we are holy or we are distinct because we are better none the less inherent in the idea of this chosen people is in fact that we are different in some way. And that we should take that as somehow either a compliment or an obligation. So I said that it's mentioned just very few times in the Bible, in Exodus 19. It says, "Now, if you obey me faithfully and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession, "Li Segula" among all the peoples, indeed, all the earth is mine." So here we have another element to this concept of being a chosen people. And that is this concept of a covenant. You know, a covenant is a legal term. It's between two parties, and it has certain conditions. And again, it means that as you were saying, and you raise this question of not always being holy, I would add to that, the question of not yet being holy meaning to say, is this choseness, is this part of developing relationship? Is it a reward? Is it kind of like, seeing the potential, and all of these things are going to come up today, as we kind of look at the sources, before we delve into the sources, the other two times that "Am Segula" is mentioned are both in Deuteronomy. And it's one of these unique occurrences that doesn't happen very often, where the same verse is word for word,  verbatim, repeated twice. It says, "for you are people consecrated to the Lord your God of all the peoples on earth, the Lord your God chose you to be his treasured people." And the only other time that I can recall that we have word for word, the same kind of formula repeated is the 10 commandments. And so it kind of ties into this concept of a treaty of a covenant of a Brit. And so what we're going to do today is actually indulge me into two different ways of looking at this chosen people that have always intrigued me. One is looking at the story of Genesis. You could read Genesis from the beginning till the end, and say, This is a book about show choosing, choosing one son over another, choosing one wife over another, it is all a narrative, all of the complex kind of soap opera type of drama, is all caused by the same dynamic that we run into when we talk about our chosen people. So I always was thinking that's where I would look. And I was hoping someone would write a book. And lo and behold, I did a search. And someone wrote a book exactly on that subject, which is to use the concept of election and choseness in the narrative of Genesis as an insight into what actually it means to be chosen. And the other thing that I was exposed to maybe 30, 40 years ago, is they discovered these Hittite treaties between the king and his vassals. And they saw that they resembled very much the kind of Brit or covenant ceremony that we have in the Bible. And the question was, how did they bare light on this whole concept of being chosen? So with your permission, what I'd love to do is to start looking at Genesis from a totally new perspective. And we're doing that to a large degree, the writings of a guy named Joel Kaminsky at Smith College, and he wrote a book in 2007 called "Yet I love Jacob, we're claiming the biblical concept of election". So the first drama that we get in in Genesis is Cain and Abel. And you all know this story. Cain is the older Abel is the younger, Abel brings a sacrifice of meat because he is a herder. And Abel brings a sacrifice of vegitation and wheat because he is a farmer, and God accepts the sacrifice of Abel of the meat, and doesn't accept or rejects the sacrifice of Cain. And of course, the first thing that we know is based on our prior weeks of discussion where we see the Bible has a real good bias for vegetarianism over meat is we would have thought God would have made a different decision. So maybe the first takeaway as we look at how God chooses is that "Strange are the ways of the Lord" , you never know what's gonna determine a Divine choice. The second thing that happens is those of you who have read the story know that Abel is not a big part of the story. The dialogue is with Cain, who after his sacrifice is rejected. God speaks to him and says, you know, don't, don't don't be concerned about this. You know, it's okay. He realizes that Cain's face has dropped, and the focus on the first election in the Bible is not on the chosen, it's on the unchosen, and that is fascinating. And then of course, we know that Cain kills Abel does a terrible sin, genocide, if you will, because there are only two people on the earth in those days, besides Adam and Eve, and maybe Seth, and he does not get therefore the blessing of Divine Will, and having God looked down upon him favorably, but the dialogue continues. He's a wanderer. He says to God, God, they're going to kill me. So again, it is rather strange or illuminating. That the first instance of God choosing someone, the narrative focuses more on the one that was not chosen than the one that was chosen. Have you ever thought about that? I had never thought about that rabbi.   Adam Mintz  11:52 So I want to tell you, Geoffrey, that is an amazing idea. I have never thought about that. I mean, of course, it's right there. It's obvious. But what does that mean? That God focuses on the unchosen God focuses on giving the unchosen a chance. I mean, if you want to be dramatic about it, Geoffrey, you wonder if Cain had given a different answer. Maybe he would have been saved somehow. And we wouldn't have had the story the way we haven't. Maybe God was giving him a chance, now in the end, he didn't observe it, and he killed Abel and that was the end of it. But maybe God has the conversation with the unchosen, because the unchosen is the one who needs the help. Abel didn't need the help. He was he was okay, he was covered, Cain needed to help.   Geoffrey Stern  12:45 Absolutely. And of course, and we're gonna see more of this later. We cannot but ignore the fact that Abel was not the first born.  We always say Cain and Abel. That's because Cain was the firstborn. And in God's first choice, he picked, not the obvious, not following the rule of primogeniture. And he picked the second son. And to me, I never thought of Cain and Abel as the first election story. Michael, I'd love to hear your comment.   Michael Posnik  13:31 As always, as always, a Hiddush (novel interpretation) somewhere in there, but I do have a question. Is this the very first time we encounter death in the TaNaCH (The Biblical Canon)? It seems as I recall, there's no other moment of death. And I remember a theater piece that George Henkin did a long time ago, when Cain and Abel are wrestling, and Cain kills Abel, but doesn't know what he's done. He tries to shake him awake, he tries to lift him up. But we don't have death yet in the TaNaCH. So that's all.   Geoffrey Stern  14:08 I think that's a great insight. I mean,  we had death as a hypothetical we had, if you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, you will die. And we have the curse of death. But this is probably the first instance of actual death. Would you agree Rabbi?   Adam Mintz  14:26 There's no question that that's right. I mean, the question is, what do you make of that? I mean, that of course is right. Now what's the "therefore" Michael?  This is the first  incidence of death. I mean, we learn a lot from the first instance of death. Let me say it another way. It's fascinating that the Torah doesn't wait very long to talk to give us a death story. Chapter 3. It's already at the beginning. You have the story of the of the expulsion from The Garden of Eden. There's not going to be death in the Garden of Eden because the Garden of Eden is perfection. So actually, if you want to take it this way, Geoffrey, the very first story in the Torah is the story of death is the story of killing, Man leaves the Garden of Eden and they kill ... and there's death.   Geoffrey Stern  15:21 So I'd like to add to that, and I think it's a really insightful insight is that not only does death first come up, but death first comes up as a result of a choice and a choice (favoritism) made by God, if you will, and so, you know, my first inclination is, this whole concept of a chosen people really does suck....  Aren't we all loved in the in the eyes of God,... so forth and so on. And I have to say that some of the traditional commentaries, even say the same thing, if you look at the Seforno on Deuteronomy our verse. "it says, to be a treasured nation, so that he may achieve with you what he hoped to achieve with mankind, when He created man saying, Let us make man in our image." This Seforno to me is brilliant, because it does say that the ultimate goal had actually been not to make a choice, that everybody's beautiful in his own way or her own way. But nonetheless, the second you start making choices, you start getting jealousy. And in the extreme, you have death. So let's go to the next story that this book brings up, which also includes death. And it's the story of Ishmael and Isaac, or Hagar and Sarah. And in two weeks time are going to be in synagogue or zooming in and listening to the Torah reading for the first day of Rosh Hashannah, and it's hard to believe, but the first Torah reading that we read, on the first of the ten holliest days of our calendar, is about, again, the rejected son. It's about  Sarah kicking out Hagar, and her son is Ishamel she's threatened by them, because she feels that her son is the chosen one. And this story then takes the point of view of Hagar, and Ishmael and Ishmael is about to die of thirst. And then God goes ahead and saves him and blesses him. So it is again.  it's so illustrative that in the second big story of choseness, we have, again, the concepts of life or death. And I should have mentioned that we have a new theme here. And the new theme here is, you could say it's a difficult consummation, it's a difficult birth. Or you could say it's a miraculous birth. So Sarah, and Abraham, who are the chosen are having difficulty bringing a child in, they have their firstborn son, Ishmael through a maidservant named Hagar. And then they believe that it is Isaac, who's the fully chosen one. So you have this concept. And I once heard that there was an adoption agency for a Jewish children, and it was called Chosen Children. And whether it's true or not, it's an amazing name. Because I think part of this theme is that if you are born miraculously, or if you survive a death defying moment, whether it's being thirsty, as Ishmael survived, or Isaac almost being slaughtered in the binding of Issac The Akedah, in a sense, you belong to God. And so you are an adopted child. But again, we have this sense that if you are chosen, coming with it comes a lot of pain and struggle. I just love the way this book and I encourage any of you who are interested in tracing these concepts to get it. But again, these themes come up over and over again, in all the future themes. We're going to have this question of a difficult or miraculous birth, we're going to have the sense of the one who is not chosen is nonetheless blessed in his or her own way. And we have the sense being chosen isn't a walk in the park. It's difficult for all concerned.   Adam Mintz  20:07 I mean, let's let's, let me take your last point first. And that is the fact that choseness is difficult, choseness is opportunity. But choseness is also obligation. And I think that's really the point you're making. And that's a huge point. You started the half hour with a discussion of Tevya. You know, "couldn't you choose somebody else", he understood that being chosen is obligation. I'll just tell you something. When you convert somebody to Judaism, the way the conversion process works is that the conversion candidate studies all the laws or many of the laws, then you take the conversion candidate to the mikvah, and you kind of give them a kind of formal test. And then they get ready to go into the mikvah. And the very last thing that you say to the conversion candidate, before they go into the mikvah before they become Jewish, what you say is, you should know that you're now joining a chosen people, and being chosen has a lot of responsibilities. And not everybody in the world understands and appreciates the fact that we're chosen. It's always struck me that that's what we tell the Convert at the last minute.   Geoffrey Stern  21:35 And of course, the Convert is literally choosing to be a part of our people.   Adam Mintz  21:42 In spite of the fact that choseness is a challenge.   Geoffrey Stern  21:49 One of the ideas that I was thinking of is, is choseness a choice, and certainly in the sense of a convert, they are choosing to be part of our chosen community. You know, you can't help but realize when we talk about Ishmael, that we on the first day of Rosh Hashannah are going to be hearing his story, and not the story of Isaac. But there are billions of followers of Islam, who actually believe that Ishmael was the son who was taken by Abraham to the binding, and they substitute Ishmael for Isaac. So it seems to me that one of the questions that is raised in my head is; Is this our narrative of being chosen, and are others are permitted and almost encouraged to have their own narratives of being chosen? But certainly whether you answer that question in the affirmative or not, even in our own tradition, we've had two instances. So far, we're the one who has not chosen almost becomes the center point of the story, at least that part of the story that we've looked at, which to me is just absolutely fascinating. So let's move on to the next story. And that is Jacob and Esau. And here, unlike the previous story, where you had two mothers, you had Hagar and Sarah, and I should say that this concept of choseness is known to disrupt people, so that maybe Ishmael and Isaac did not have the best relationship. But we can't but realize that it spilled over to their mothers who didn't have a good relationship. This choseness tears families apart. Now we get to Jacob and Esau, and we have a single mother with twins in her womb. And in Genesis 25. It says, "and the Lord answered her two nations are in your womb, to separate people shall issue from your body, one shall be mightier than the other. And the older shall serve the younger." So if we thought that there was a trend and from two episodes, you can't have a trend yet. But if we started to sense that Cain and Abel, it was Abel, who was picked, he was the underdog. He was the second born. In the story of Isaac and Ishmael Isaac was the second born. Now we have the Bible actually say it, that it is going to be Jacob, who is the second born, who will rule over the older. And this choice by God is very disruptive. And it is disruptive in the sense that it goes against the traditions, the concepts, the assumptions of the ancient Near East, and even our own Bible were in Deuteronomy 21. It says if you have two sons from two wives, and One is loved and one is not, "he must accept the firstborn, the son of the unloved one, and a lot to him a double portion of all he possesses." So the choices that God and His agents are making in Genesis are flaunting the assumptions and the norms of the ancient Near East. And in that sense, we have a new element to choseness. And that is a sense of radicalism.   Adam Mintz  25:32 I love that. I love that idea. radicalism.  Choseness is radicalism, because of the way that it developed. Let's just again, take a step back choseness doesn't have to be radical, because it could be that the older one is chosen. But the way the Torah represents it, the older one is never chosen, you're chosen on merit, not on birth order. And that is radical in the Torah. And you're absolutely right, Geoffrey the Torah wants that to be radical. The Torah wants you to sit up straight and say, Wow, the Torah is breaking the rules. And it might be what you quoted from last week's parsha, that if you have two wives, and you have to still respect the son of the older son that's a technicality. That's in laws of inheritance. But what they talk about in the book of Genesis is not the laws of inheritance. That's really the concept of who's gonna continue the Jewish people. And that was not based on birth order that was based on merit. And the Torah is very radical, that the younger one seems to always merit. By the way, it doesn't end in Genesis, Moses is the one who merits to be the leader, even though clearly Aaron is the older one. And Aaron doesn't get it, Aaron gets a consolation prize. He is the high priest, but he's not the leader of the Jewish people.   Geoffrey Stern  27:13 We're so engrossed in this conversation, the minutes are running by, but I would like to pose and this I have not seen in writing. And so in a sense, this is a little bit original. But we always think the opposite of chosen, this is not being chosen (rejected). And I would like to suggest that the opposite of being chosen, is being entitled. And I think the adopted child is the best example that one could pick. The idea that the firstborn, and that is whether it's the firstborn in a family, or it's an established hierarchy of class or nobility, that they are entitled to have (power) certain things. The fact that the Bible shows an absolute bias, and it's outspoken. It goes all the way through Joseph's story...  Joseph is the son of Rachel, Rachel is the daughter of Laben. She's the second born daughter, this doesn't only refer to men, when Jacob picks her And Laban switches the vail,  Laban winks at Jacob the next morning and says, We don't do things that way. Here. We honor the firstborn. Jacob was rejecting the first born when he picked Rachel, Jacob, who loved Joseph was loving the youngest over over Judah. So this is a rejection of the entitlement, and an embrace of and I won't say someone who deserves it, and that's where we get to the crux of the message, and we're running out of time. So I'd love to talk about the Joseph's story a little bit. It's very clear in Joseph that when he is young, not only does his father make a mistake in picking him and giving him this beautiful toy of a wonderful multicolored coat, but he doesn't understand what it is to have certain powers, certain abilities. He taunts his brothers with his dreams, you will bow down to me he is an immature chosen person, and his brothers are no less immature by selling him. He goes on to Egypt. And again, he's chosen .... this guy is on the make, he's going to rise to the top. And it's only after he's in jail, that he's called on to interpret a dream for the first time, does he say, and God has given me this ability, and he's gotten the humility. So I think we learned from this part of the story That, in fact, being chosen is as much of a challenge, is as much of seeing the potential that one needs to pick. And I will say that part of it has to be choosing to be chosen. And that's where I kind of want to end and I'm happy to extend our conversation. But these Hittite treaties that I referenced earlier on, were between the main King, and a bunch of different vassals, and they sounded very much like our 10 commandments, because they start by the king saying, I did this for your parents, and I took you from here, and I brought you to here, and therefore you have to be loyal to me. And what the radical difference .... we've used this term already today, with the covenant of being chosen, is that God gets rid of the ruling class, and he doesn't pick another king. And we've discussed this before he picks the children of Israel. And he says to each person, I have this relationship with you. And that, I think, is what was radical about the choseness and the covenant that we see. And in fact, this whole concept of being chosen? Is it a difficult concept? Yes. Is it one that comes chock full of suffering? Absolutely. But I'd like to say that, to my mind, the idea of being chosen is the idea of not being entitled, The idea that if you choose to be part of our movement, and it was a movement of unaffiliated "apiru", which became "ivrim" who came into the land of Canaan, who rejected all of the ruling class, and decided to make a new society, if you choose to join us, you are chosen. And if you choose to live by the old rules of entitlement and class, then maybe you're going to have your own blessings. But the blessings of this choseness are unique. And that's kind of what I come away with. It's a very challenging concept. It's one that we can debate forever. But it's also one that is chock full of ideas that that relate to all of us who have families, who have sibling rivalries, .... it's very grounded in real life.   Adam Mintz  32:27 Thank you, Geoffrey. I think that's great. I'll just add one little point and that is, and even when you choose to be chosen, the road is bumpy. And Joseph is the best example of that. Nothing is simple, right? The decision to be chosen is difficult. And then the road of choseness is difficult. This was a great topic. It's a great topic before Rosh Hashannah. We look forward to seeing everybody we still can get it one more Shabbat before Rosh Hashannah. So next week, "Nitzavim" have a great Shabbat Have a great week, everybody enjoy the last week of summer. And we look forward to see you next Friday.   Geoffrey Stern  33:03 Anyone who wants to stay on and continue the discussion are welcome to do so. But this was very special, I hope you all enjoyed. And that each in your own way will choose to be chosen and to choose and empower others as well. As we go into Shabbat, the only thing that I will add is that the blessing that we say over our children on Friday night is the blessing that that Jacob made to Joseph's two children, Ephraim and Menasheh And to the form, he moved his hands in two different directions. And he put his right hand on the youngest son, and true to form Joseph said to him, Hey, Dad, that's not the way we do things. And the real reason I believe that we make the blessing on Menasheh and Ephraim on Friday night is number one, it's a blessing from  grandparents to their grandchildren. And when you bless your grandchildren, you know that the continuity of some of the ideas that you hold, near have a future. but also, we have no record of Ephraim and Menasheh so in a sense, it is a little bit of the resolution of the whole challenge of choseness, that here were two brothers. Clearly one had different talents than the other. One got the main blessing, the other got another blessing, but they all live together and at the end of the day, that I think is the biggest challenge of being chosen. Shabbat Shalom.  

And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?' Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” Genesis 18:1–15 (ESV)

This message was given by the Rev. Anders Edstrom from the pulpit of Greenfield Presbyterian Church, Berkley, MI. The Scripture Lessons are Genesis 18:1-15 Isaac's birth announced 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre while he sat at the entrance of his tent in the day's heat. 2 He looked up and suddenly saw three men standing near him. As soon as he saw them, he ran from his tent entrance to greet them and bowed deeply. 3 He said, “Sirs, if you would be so kind, don't just pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought so you may wash your feet and refresh yourselves under the tree. 5 Let me offer you a little bread so you will feel stronger, and after that you may leave your servant and go on your way—since you have visited your servant.” They responded, “Fine. Do just as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried to Sarah at his tent and said, “Hurry! Knead three seahs of the finest flour and make some baked goods!” 7 Abraham ran to the cattle, took a healthy young calf, and gave it to a young servant, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then Abraham took butter, milk, and the calf that had been prepared, put the food in front of them, and stood under the tree near them as they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where's your wife Sarah?” And he said, “Right here in the tent.” 10 Then one of the men said, “I will definitely return to you about this time next year. Then your wife Sarah will have a son!” Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were both very old. Sarah was no longer menstruating. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, I'm no longer able to have children and my husband's old. 13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Me give birth? At my age?' 14 Is anything too difficult for the Lord? When I return to you about this time next year, Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah lied and said, “I didn't laugh,” because she was frightened. But he said, “No, you laughed.” and Genesis 21:1-7 Isaac's birth 21 The Lord was attentive to Sarah just as he had said, and the Lord carried out just what he had promised her. 2 She became pregnant and gave birth to a son for Abraham when he was old, at the very time God had told him. 3 Abraham named his son—the one Sarah bore him—Isaac. 4 Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old just as God had commanded him. 5 Abraham was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born. 6 Sarah said, “God has given me laughter. Everyone who hears about it will laugh with me.” 7 She said, “Who could have told Abraham that Sarah would nurse sons? But now I've given birth to a son when he was old!”

Interviews on-site at the 2021 ENVE Builder Round Up and Grodeo. We grab interviews with custom builders: Falconer, Holland, Inglis, Mosaic, No.22, Pine Cycles, Sage, Salt Air, Sycip and Wies. Episode presented by ENVE Composites  Join The Ridership Support the Podcast Automated Transcription (please excuse the typos) ENVE Builder Mash Up Episode Craig Dalton: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to a special edition of the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton.  [00:00:07]I'm releasing this week's podcast, just on the heels of returning home from Ogden, Utah. I was visiting this week. Sponsor ENVE composites. [00:00:16]ENVE was hosting their annual builder Roundup showcase. As well as a new event called Grodeo  [00:00:22]The builder Roundup is a who's who of ENVE partners from around the world. I saw a ton of gravel and adventure bikes. A few mountain bikes, fat bike. An electric bike and all sorts of amazing things.   [00:00:37]The words you'll hear in this podcast will be challenged to really express. How truly unique and gorgeous and impressive. The craftsmanship on all these bikes were. I encourage you to seek out these pictures  [00:00:50] On the web on Instagram of posts, some on my account. But really look at the details of these bikes because it's clear these craftsmen are exceptional. At their work. I wanted to get you an opportunity to hear from some of the craftsmen in their own words. So I did some mini interviews about a dozen of them that I've cobbled together in this episode.  [00:01:14] You'll notice some variation in the audio, as some of the interviews were held in a room while others were on the show floor. But i really wanted you to hear from the builders themselves so i'm just going to let them fly and hopefully any ups and downs in the audios will be okay when you walk away from the totality of this episode [00:01:34]Before we begin just a couple more words about our sponsor and V composites. I got to do a full factory tour while I was out there to see. The rim manufacturing, handlebars. He posts. And also the full frame set from ENVE,  that we talked about with Neil Shirley a few episodes ago. [00:01:53]A couple of things to share about that tour. That really impressed me. First of all, all the manufacturing is done in house.  [00:02:02]We got to see the raw rolls of carbon fiber come in the templates in which those rolls and carbon fiber are cut. And laid into molds to create the various products that you know so well. [00:02:12]We also got to see the elaborate in-house testing labs. That they run and the various machines that they torture these products with to make sure they. Obtain the standards that ENVE is known for around the world.   [00:02:26]From my vantage point, these machines absolutely abused the products. We saw a frame being torked to know, and we saw spokes being ripped out through rim holes. We saw the impact test machine for rims. It was really impressive. And clearly when NV gets some feedback from the road, someone saying, I was just riding along, they can safely say, there's no way you were just riding along with that impact. You must have been hit by a truck because we know our products are tested to such an extreme standard. So that was really cool.  [00:03:03] I am a sucker for U S manufacturing. So I was super geeked out and stoked to see. Not only all the machinery but all the craftsmen and women that were operating in ogden utah and just the passion that they have as a company for creating exceptional products in the marketplace. [00:03:22]After the builder Roundup on Friday was Saturday mornings Grodeo event. It was a 200 Ryder event and my first mass participation event. Since the pandemic began. So it was very excited to toe the line. But quite nervous. The stated course had over 8,500 feet of climbing. And I believe was supposed to be clocked at around 85 miles.  [00:03:46] I had a little ride in from the hotel. So at the end of the day, I rode a hundred miles. Did that 8,500 feet of climbing.  [00:03:54]My total ride time was just over eight hours and 30 minutes. So it was a huge day out on the bike for me. Hats off to Neil Shirley and anybody else who had a hand in course design. It was really a showcase of the area. We had some beautiful canyon road rides. Single track. Tough Rocky fire road, climbs and descents.  [00:04:16] Very beautiful surrounding just when you thought you were done Neil through a couple of loops on the way back into town. On some interesting single track that Ogden had to offer. It was really one of those courses that in my opinion, tested , every element of you as a gravel rider.  [00:04:35]Sarah was hard, beautiful and challenging. A perfect gravel course.   [00:04:40]With all that said, let's jump right into my dozen mini interviews. They're going to jump around a bit. So just follow along, you'll catch up. Each builder introduces themselves and their brand. And gives a little bit of an overview of the bikes they brought to the Roundup. I've also got four more long form interviews coming up.  [00:04:59] Off the top of my head Breadwinner Cycles, Scarab out of Columbia. Spooky and most likely Sage titanium. So keep an eye out in your feed for those as well.  Let's dive right in All right. Can you tell me your name and the brand?  [00:05:14] Cole Bennett: [00:05:14] My name is Cole Bennett and I run Weis manufacturing.  [00:05:17] Craig Dalton: [00:05:17] And where are you located?  [00:05:19] Cole Bennett: [00:05:19] In Brooklyn? New York. [00:05:20]Craig Dalton: [00:05:20] So tell me about this very special bike here at the end. ENVE Builder a Roundup.  [00:05:23]Cole Bennett: [00:05:23] This is our gravel SL model. It's a 7,000 series aluminum construction and with a carbon seat mast. [00:05:33]There's like a gravel racer that we build. It's got. A lot of details. If you look closely pretty much everything we don't use any off the shelf parts. So all our dropouts bottom bracket tattoos, we design and see have CNC made for us. And a lot of our tubing profiles are also custom. So yeah, I don't know. [00:05:53] It's been a lot of work went into this thing.  [00:05:55] Craig Dalton: [00:05:55] It's hard to over the microphone. Describe the backend of this bike. Can you try to do it some justice?  [00:06:02] Cole Bennett: [00:06:02] So basically all of our frames have an asymmetrical rear ends. This is a trickle-down from our first frame model, which is a racing track racing bikes. [00:06:11]So the asymmetrical rear end is a stiffer driver's side. It's bigger diameter, tubing, and a drop stay. Just like you'd see in a lot of race bikes, but they do that on both sides. So yeah, the gravel bike also has that.  [00:06:26] Craig Dalton: [00:06:26] What is the process look like for a customer wanting to get one of these.  [00:06:29]Cole Bennett: [00:06:29] Right now it's I've actually closed the orders. [00:06:32] So the process right now is get on the mailing list and wait for us to release some frame slots. But basically the way the process goes is that they're working with me. It's a small operation, it's me. And one other person that's helping me. And yeah, from start to finish, it's a customer experience is a big thing for me. [00:06:50] So from start to finish, I'm with the customer. Talking through custom paint, custom geo, everything soup to nuts.  [00:06:58] Craig Dalton: [00:06:58] And are you in that discussion, if they come to you and say, Hey, I want a six 50 by 50 millimeter, tired versus somebody who wants more of a road plus bike. Do you make modifications? [00:07:09]  [00:07:09]Cole Bennett: [00:07:09] I've actually started to put my foot down a bit on that kind of stuff. [00:07:12]Because basically what I tell customers is look, we put a lot of R and D into figuring out tire clearances, everything that's good. So let's not alter the basic platform of the model, but we're happy to do custom geo to really dial in your fit. But if you want to grab a bike, we have a gravel model. [00:07:31] If you want a road bike, we have a couple of road models and so on.  [00:07:34] Craig Dalton: [00:07:34] Gotcha. Cool. What's an absolutely stunning bike that you've  [00:07:37] brought here. So the congrats.  [00:07:39] Cole Bennett: [00:07:39] Thank you. Thank you. Falconer [00:07:41] [00:07:41] Cameron Falconer: [00:07:41] Hey, my name is Cameron falconer, my company falconer cycles, and I'm in Quincy, California. Good. Save there, here at the ENVE builder Roundup before the party starts I make custom TIG welded, steel bikes, and most of what I make is pretty simple and pretty straightforward. [00:07:59]Definitely function. The bike I'm showing here today is an odd one. It's a coaster brake 700 by 50 millimeter flat bar bike. So what is it? Well, I don't know. It's meant to be a tribute to pneumatic tire safety bicycles of the 1819. And these were the bikes that were the first spikes that would appear to us as modern cyclists with pneumatic tires and equally sized wheels and a chamber. [00:08:28] Yeah. And the visual cue is the really tall head tube and the one back bars and the sloping top tube, you see, you saw this in the 1890s and that sort of era, and I've always liked that sort of aesthetic. And finally decided to make something. So it is the couple of things that are interesting on it. [00:08:47]The front hub is a Paul from Chico, California, but I had to make an axle for it to make it work with the through axle. And the front rack is an idea I had and it's made from two curved pieces of titanium sheet metal welded together, and the curves reinforce each other. So it creates rigid. It's designed to hold something pretty small and light like a sleeping bag. [00:09:10] And then the rear hub is an American made Bendix from the fifties. You still can't give this finer a Custer brake hub. So thanks for listening. [00:09:19]Inglis Cycles [00:09:19]Curtis Inglis: [00:09:19] Curtis Ingliss from Napa, California. I build under retro tech in Inglis cycles. What I brought to the NV open house this year is a retro tech fund Durham in titanium. So we have been doing over the years, we've made titanium bikes, a couple of different versions but. [00:09:36] Long-term and we've always just stuck with steel. So we're attempting to play with Ty again. And we were working with simple up in Portland, so I do all the bending so far, the two, two batches we've done. I've went up there and helped build them as well. But I do all the bending in house in California and then drag everything up there and then we build them at the simple factory. [00:09:54] So  [00:09:55] Craig Dalton: [00:09:55] is there anything specific about the geometry of this bike?  [00:09:58]Curtis Inglis: [00:09:58] This is pretty standard funder. So long front end slack head angle fairly short chain stays, but not you know, crazy short. The idea is trying to like, not make, I'm not racing towards the most extreme geometry, you know, the slackest head angle and all that. [00:10:11] I still want a bike that can be written across country. And handled everything pretty decently but not definitely not shooting for like the most extreme, you know, downhill hard tail bike. I'm looking for a bike that's like fun to ride uphill and down.  [00:10:25] Craig Dalton: [00:10:25] And have you seen a difference, like when you're riding your steel funder versus this difference in the way it feels that you might advise customers to think of? [00:10:33] Curtis Inglis: [00:10:33] That's a great question. I haven't actually written a mountain bike type in titanium in my gravel. I have a steel one and a Taiwan. And other than being a slight hair lighter, I both red green, or I don't know. I enjoy both. The geometry has changed a little bit on the new bike. So it's more, I can't tell you. [00:10:54] I haven't tried the mountain bike yet. So  [00:10:56] Craig Dalton: [00:10:56] I'm sure for most people, there's just a certain allure of titanium that makes it a dream material to eventually get  [00:11:01] Curtis Inglis: [00:11:01] to. And why I built myself when I built six customer's bikes and the seventh bike was mine, and I had just built myself one so that I could have this answer. [00:11:09] I just can't keep, I can't, I never feel comfortable making something that I haven't tried. Usually when I try something new in geometry or whatever, it's on myself or a good friend, so I can get good feedback from them. And on these, I wanted to make sure that like I was the one trying it out and seeing how they rode and if there was going to be tweaks that I needed to do for different sized people and that sort of stuff. [00:11:28] Perfect. Thanks  [00:11:29] Craig Dalton: [00:11:29] for the overview. Yeah. [00:11:30]Sycip Cycles [00:11:30]Jeremy Sycip: [00:11:30] Hi, my name's Jeremy Sycip with Sycip designs. I'm up in Santa Rosa, California. And this year for the ENVE show, I brought a it is a, an electric assist mountain bike, but using an ENVE har rigid fork. But it's mainly the main purpose of this bike is to carry. Kind of whatever you need your needs are. [00:11:49] And in this case I have a barbecue in one of these bags and and it's the hall drinks and some to cook with, to trails. And that's what the purpose of this bike is. And it's basically our carry all electric assist, bike it to help, you know, to help you peddle up Hills and stuff, because it's going to be fully loaded. [00:12:05] Craig Dalton: [00:12:05] Nice. And you've so you've got the, is it the ENVE adventure fork on the front?  [00:12:08] Jeremy Sycip: [00:12:08] This is not, this is their mountain. Because it's the built, the frame is built around mountain bike, geometry. And so at 29 or wheels and it fits up to a 2.6 tire. Yeah, so it's just one of those just showing off that I can do custom frames and they build all different kinds. [00:12:19] So this is just one of  [00:12:20] Craig Dalton: [00:12:20] them. Can you tell us a little bit about the brand and how long you've been doing it?  [00:12:24] Jeremy Sycip: [00:12:24] So the brand was started my brother and I started the company back in 1992 and we were in in San Francisco area. Until 2001, and then recently, or not recently, 2001, we moved to Santa Rosa, California. [00:12:37] So it's next year it's going to be our 30th year anniversary. So that's going on for awhile. Okay.  [00:12:42] Craig Dalton: [00:12:42] Amazing. And what type of frame materials are you usually using?  [00:12:45] Jeremy Sycip: [00:12:45] So these days I've actually offered titanium recently the last few years. So steel aluminum and titanium and building any kind of custom bike, basically tandems rode mountain bikes. [00:12:55] Gravel bikes. You know, I have my commuter line, which I call them my Java boy, Java girl blind. And then these are the one I brought here to S E bike is basically like an like a specialty bike, custom bike lane where it can do whatever people want, basically  [00:13:08] Craig Dalton: [00:13:08] on the gravel bikes. Are they always a hundred percent custom? [00:13:11] And how do you what's that process look like when you're working with the custom. [00:13:14]Jeremy Sycip: [00:13:14] Yeah. So all the bikes these days are all custom. So I work with an individual person, one at a time. We do a full fitting if they're near our area or they send me their body measurements. And I kind of work from that and design a frame around what their needs are, you know, tire size components. [00:13:30]And then we come up with a bike, CAD drawing and you know, when they find it, when they okay, it, the customer okays, then it looks to be what the. And that's designed around their body measurements. And then that's how the build actually starts to happen at that point.  [00:13:44] Craig Dalton: [00:13:44] Can you tell me about one of the signature features on the bike that I've seen on? [00:13:48] I think is it all your bikes that I see this on? Yeah.  [00:13:50] Jeremy Sycip: [00:13:50] So the wish, well, basically it's a wishbone stay that I do. And and I use pennies to cap off the tubes. So that started back in the nineties, like early mid nineties, maybe. I think I was trying to get I used to co cap them with steel caps that I used to make. [00:14:06] And then I realized that Penny's fit over there and it cost a penny each. So it was a lot cheaper than having them fabricated somewhere or a machine shop to make those caps. So that's what started that. And and so the gravel and cross bikes, if the customer wants a wishbone stay, I use dimes to cap off the tubes because there are 16 mil stays and the mountain bikes use a 19 mills day, which has a penny size. [00:14:26] Cap that go on there. So you don't feel it. Our mountain bike, it's a 2 cent rebate and the gravel vice Guetta and the across vice get a 20 cent rebate. So you get some money back at dam, the only frame builder that offers money back. When you buy frame, [00:14:38]Craig Dalton: [00:14:38] you heard it here first. If someone's looking to order a gravel bike, w what kind of turnaround time do you have for custom bikes? [00:14:43] Jeremy Sycip: [00:14:43] So right now it's about four to five months, a little longer for titanium. And then if it's a custom paint job, it also takes a little longer, but most of the bikes get a one color powder coat. Yeah.  [00:14:53] Craig Dalton: [00:14:53] Perfect. Thanks Jeremy. Yeah. [00:14:55]Sage Dave Rosen: [00:14:55] So I'm Dave and my brand is Sage titanium. Okay.  [00:14:58] Craig Dalton: [00:14:58] We're at the eENVEthe builder, Roundup wanting to tell the listener about what we've got in front of us.  [00:15:03] Dave Rosen: [00:15:03] So the bike we have in front of us is our storm king gravel bike. This is the, do it all quiver killer monster gravel race, bike that you can also take adventure, bike, packing stuff on kind of thing. [00:15:16] Like it's just, it does it all. It was designed around 700 by 50 millimeter tires. It's a pretty aggressive geometry in general, but the reality is every bike is built custom one at a time for each individual customer. So we can actually customize the geometry to the individual. So if somebody really wants a storm king to be more relaxed for more loaded touring. [00:15:39] Sure. No problem. But the general nature of the bike itself is more race oriented kind of thing. And yeah, so that's the storm king for where we're at. and let's,  [00:15:50] Craig Dalton: [00:15:50] let's talk about the frame material and what you guys typically work with.  [00:15:53]Dave Rosen: [00:15:53] All of our bikes, you know, a hundred percent USA made the storm king in particular, we make in our shop in house in Portland we only use titanium three to five, you know, us source. [00:16:03]Straight gauge across the board for the storm king no, no budding or anything like that. But of course, if a customer has a request, we're more than happy to accommodate. And you know, the frame itself has a variety of finishes that we can offer as well. So generally really we offer a brushed finish with maybe standard decals as a easy way to just get you out the door. But we do from a custom finish standpoint, we can offer everything from paint to Sarah coat, to anodize the bead blast to, you know, mass graphics like across the board. [00:16:36] And so the show bike we have. Is a combination of just about everything we do. So we've actually got cerakote finish fading to a bead blast with raw graphics, raw titanium, mixed in and anodized logos on top of it. So it's really it's four different finishes on one frame, which is insane, but it came out  [00:16:56] great  [00:16:57] Craig Dalton: [00:16:57] though. [00:16:57] Yeah. It's very visually interesting. It's not over the top, but you can see when you get up close. The level of detail and the changing techniques that you've used it to the finish the bike.  [00:17:08] Yeah. Yeah,  [00:17:09] Dave Rosen: [00:17:09] no, it's are our pain or just outdid himself. You know, I, the thing I love about the fade for example is that it actually is a true fade when you actually get close up on the bike. [00:17:19] I've seen a lot of fades where it's a much harder edge and this just, it blends so naturally kind of thing. It's just, it's great. And then just being able to match in the Sarah. We actually cerakote all of the NV components so we can cerakote carbon, which is a bit unusual that it's not in order to cerakote carbon in order to cerakote something, you actually have to cure it at, I think it's 350 or 360 degrees and carbon doesn't like being heated up. [00:17:44] So our paint shop has figured out a way to, to actually cerakote the carbon and. And it's all good to go. And we've been Sarah coding, customer bikes for a while now, forks, bars, stems, everything, and everything's been great. So we were, we went over the top with this one with just really just making the graphics  [00:18:01] Craig Dalton: [00:18:01] pop on it. [00:18:02] Well, you definitely got to show up with your, a game here at the builder Roundup seriously.  [00:18:06] Dave Rosen: [00:18:06] I mean, it's like the level of bikes around here. You can't come slacking off to this show. It is full game on it's a game or go home. So  [00:18:14] Craig Dalton: [00:18:14] thanks for the overview, Dave.  [00:18:15] Dave Rosen: [00:18:15] Thanks. Appreciate it. No.22 [00:18:17]Craig Dalton: [00:18:17] All right. Can you introduce yourself and the brand you're representing today?  [00:18:20] Tony: [00:18:20] My name is Tony Bren Dottie, and I work with number 22 titanium bicycles out of Johnstown New York.  [00:18:27] Craig Dalton: [00:18:27] And tell me about the break you've brought to the ENVE builder  [00:18:29] Tony: [00:18:29] Roundup. So this is our titanium all road bike called the great divide disc. [00:18:36] What makes this particular one unique is the fact that we used NVS integrated front end. So there. One piece bar in stem and headset that allows the brake lines to be run internally through the head tube and steer tube so that all the lines are hidden inside the handle bar as well. Yeah, that gives  [00:18:56] Craig Dalton: [00:18:56] it a very kind of striking and unusual look when you eliminate all the cables from the front end of the bike,  [00:19:03] Tony: [00:19:03] really leading into that, making it look different. [00:19:06] We also adopted the use of cerakote on this particular one. So this is actually called Stormtrooper white cerakote. And we also did our, what we're really known for is our anodizing finish. And this is gold. Ano  [00:19:23]Craig Dalton: [00:19:23] Can you describe what serotonin that finish  [00:19:25] Tony: [00:19:25] is? So Sarah coat is a ceramic coating that goes over the tubing in contrary wet paint is a very similar process, but in its makeup, it is entirely. [00:19:40] This is durable. It's incredibly thin. It also allows us to do different things that wet paint doesn't do, like being able to put it in places that are a bit more flexible because paint can't flex the same way. A lot of cerakote coatings. Can  [00:19:58]Craig Dalton: [00:19:58] I can't let you go without asking about these fenders on this bike,  [00:20:02] Tony: [00:20:02] the titanium vendors are definitely unique. [00:20:05] They really bring this bike together. They're full titanium. We even down to the package of making the small little brackets and bolts that attach it to the bike, those are all titanium. And those that we could analyze we did.  [00:20:18] Craig Dalton: [00:20:18] Now this model is erode plus model. Can you talk about the gravel models that you have in the number 22  [00:20:23] Tony: [00:20:23] lineup? [00:20:24] So the gravel models that are a bit more, you know, big tire oriented, like 700 by 40 fives, we've got the drifter and the drifter. Drifter X is a bit more race oriented, a little bit more aggressive geometry. It also has a tapered head tube and a titanium ISP. So it's very visually striking for those that are looking for a little bit more of an adventure style, gravel bike, the standard drifter uses a traditional seatpost, which a lot of people like, because some end up using dropper posts as well as a slight. [00:20:58] More relaxed geometry. So it's more adventure based your bike packing things where people like to get a little bit more out in the woods and  [00:21:07] Craig Dalton: [00:21:07] for a customer looking to get a number 22 bike, how long do they  [00:21:11] Tony: [00:21:11] need to wait? So at the moment, we're at 22 weeks lead time and that's a moving target. We have been able to get all the parts that we need for complete bikes, but we still need to make the frames. [00:21:21]Our sales have been increasing. Outpacing what we can manufacturer, but that's a good problem to have.  [00:21:29] Craig Dalton: [00:21:29] Absolutely. And the manufacturing is in-house in  [00:21:31] Tony: [00:21:31] New York, it's all done in Johnstown, New York. So basically halfway between Montreal and New York city.  [00:21:39] Craig Dalton: [00:21:39] And w is the customer buying from a stock selection of frame sizes or are you a custom  [00:21:43] Tony: [00:21:43] shop? [00:21:44] We do both. We have the standard sizes and stock options, but we also do custom options and custom could be down to. You know, getting the fit details from a customer and the overall, even just the visual appearance could look better with a different size head tube, for example, or if it's somebody who is a slightly larger writer, we can change certain tube sizes to make it stiffer or ride within what we expect of that frame that we designed. [00:22:12] Craig Dalton: [00:22:12] Awesome. Thanks for that overview,  [00:22:13] Tony: [00:22:13] Tony. No worries. Anytime. Pursuit [00:22:16]Craig Dalton: [00:22:16] All right. Can you tell me your name and the brand?  [00:22:18] Carl Strong: [00:22:18] Yeah. My name is Carl Strong and the brand is pursuit cycles more out of Bozeman, Montana. I've known for titanium bikes, strong frames, but I've recently started a company called pursuit and we do custom modular monocoque carbon fiber frames that we make entirely in house in Bozeman, Montana. [00:22:37] Nice.  [00:22:37] Craig Dalton: [00:22:37] And this particular gravel bike that's in front of us. What are some of the attributes?  [00:22:41] Carl Strong: [00:22:41] Well, we call it an all road because the max, our size is a 40 on a 700 wheel or a 50 on a six 50. So it's a little more towards the road end of the spectrum versus something that might go more into the adventure. [00:22:53] And so it does, it's a perfect race bike for something like Unbound gravel. I'm riding it here on mountain bike rides, like crazy. And it's performing flawlessly. We're real excited about that, but some of the attributes are, is custom sized. We can tweak the geometry. It's got we do custom lamps, custom paint, custom parts picks the features that we're most excited about are we have the internal bearings on a tapered head too. [00:23:18] We've chosen to bond in a titanium threaded bottom bracket. It's a T 47. So there's no squeaking or pressing issues that you get with a lot of carbon frames. For the same reason, we bonded in a mandrill wound seat tube. So you have a perfect fit for your post. We use an external clamp, so you there's no fussing around or fiddling with a saddle or the posting put we do. [00:23:40]Compression, molded dropouts, which allows us to machine the brake for a perfect brake alignment brake machine, the brake surface. And then we bond in titanium axle guides so that there's no wear and tear on the on the dropouts. When you put your wheel in and out, we've also sandwiched that drilling. [00:23:58] Between the hub and the dropout, so that it stiffens up the rear derail your hanger, which gives you better performance with electronic shifting, because that puts a lot of force on. So what is the customer  [00:24:11] Craig Dalton: [00:24:11] journey look like when they call you up to order a bike like this?  [00:24:14] Carl Strong: [00:24:14] Well, they start by placing a deposit that puts them in the queue and it kicks off what we call our design. [00:24:20] And so the first thing we do with our customers is we figure out what method we want to use to determine their fit profile. Do you have one, do you have a fitter you like to work with that can provide us with one or do you want us to do it once we need to figure out which one of those we're going to do? [00:24:36] We do it. We generate a fit profile. And from that I'll draft them out a schematic of a bike with their fit profile. So that we can discuss all of the little nuances of their fit, the way it integrates with the bike, their priorities, and and desires. Once we get the fit nail and the geometry nailed, we talk about layup, which is going to determine the way the bike feels. [00:24:59] And then we moved from there to the finish. That's a big thing. We have a lot of finish off. We have design services. They can choose to go with it. They want something that's custom made by our professional graphic designer specifically for them. And then after that we do the whole parts pick and then build it delivery time is usually when you can get parts about three months from start to finish, if they're quick on their decision to make. [00:25:24] And we try not to speed anybody up in the process. We want them to work at a comfortable rate of speed, making their decisions, not feeling under pressure. And we want to make sure that they're confident that when they do finally sign the, okay, they know exactly what they're going to get and it performs exactly as they expect. [00:25:43] Perfect. Well, this is a  [00:25:44] Craig Dalton: [00:25:44] gorgeous looking by. Congratulations. Thank  [00:25:45] Carl Strong: [00:25:45] you very much. Yeah. Appreciate it. [00:25:48] Pine Cycles Craig Dalton: [00:25:48] Can I just get your name and your brand?  [00:25:49] Kevin Mcclelland: [00:25:49] Yeah, my name's Kevin McClellan. My brand is pine cycles.  [00:25:52] Craig Dalton: [00:25:52] I hadn't heard of pine cycles before brand new, right.  [00:25:55] Kevin Mcclelland: [00:25:55] We are a new brand launching today at the MV builder Roundup.  [00:25:58] Craig Dalton: [00:25:58] Yep. [00:25:59] That's awesome. Tell me about the bike we just looked at.  [00:26:01] Kevin Mcclelland: [00:26:01] So this bike is our attempt to make the most versatile bike that we possibly. Some of the unique design features of it is it has a custom dropout that has unique inserts that you can interchange depending on how you want to ride the bike. So the insert on the bike is 12 by 1 42 flat Mount for disc brake use. [00:26:21] And then we also have a standard QR dropout for if you want to run the bike with rim brakes, and then you can swap the fork or attract dropout if you want to run single speed or fixed gear. Not only that, but the bike also fits three separate tires. So it fits 700 by 35, 6 50 by 47. That's on the bike here and then 26 by 2.3. [00:26:42] And those all work together really well because they're all roughly the exact same outer diameter. So the geo is not changed. It's not compromised when you change over those wheel sizes. Amazing.  [00:26:51] Craig Dalton: [00:26:51] So all the way out to a 2.3 is that we said, yep, incredible. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have gotten that. [00:26:56] Just looking visually at the rear end of the bike. That's pretty impressive. Feat.  [00:27:00] Kevin Mcclelland: [00:27:00] Yeah. It's I mean, because the title. You know, that is a little bit smaller size as the chain stay in seat, state tapers. It allows for more clearance with the same sort of chain state length. And it's a pretty short chain states of four 18 mill chain state. [00:27:12]So very much should sporty road geometry riding bike, and then  [00:27:16] Craig Dalton: [00:27:16] on the front end of the bike, which ENVE fork are you rocking?  [00:27:19] Kevin Mcclelland: [00:27:19] We're actually running an allied all road dysphoric made in the USA. And the reason that we do that is. Meets the exact geometry of the whiskey long reach rim brake fork. [00:27:29]It's a 3 75 mil, so that those two forks can interchange with the frame for when you want to run it rim, brake, or disc brake.  [00:27:37] Craig Dalton: [00:27:37] I don't think I asked you about the frame material you've chosen for the  [00:27:39] Kevin Mcclelland: [00:27:39] spike. So it's a steel frame it's made out of Columbus zona tubing the entire frame, every single every single tube is Columbus donut. [00:27:48] Craig Dalton: [00:27:48] Nice. And what type of, you know, if you were advising the listener as terms of the ride quality of the bike, that, that type of tubes that delivers, how would you describe it?  [00:27:56] Kevin Mcclelland: [00:27:56] Yeah I mean, zona is slightly on the lower end within Columbus's line. So a lot of the bikes that you'll see in the show are going to have a life or spirit, which are really nice, really lightweight tube sets. [00:28:09] So ours is a little bit more budget. But still provides that really amazing steel ride quality. It just may be a slight bit heavier than some of these really nice steel bikes that are, and you guys are  [00:28:19] Craig Dalton: [00:28:19] based in salt lake city, Utah. Yup. Exactly. Nice. Yeah. Cool. Well, Kevin, thanks for the overview. [00:28:24] I appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you, sir. Yeah. Congrats on that. Great looking bike. I appreciate it. [00:28:29]Mosaic  [00:28:29]Cool. Let's start off. Why don't you give me your name and the brand you're representing?  [00:28:33] Zack Spear: [00:28:33] My name is Zach Spear. I'm at mosaic. We're in Boulder. We make titanium bikes. We do maybe one steel road bike a year, but everything else is yeah. Straight titanium. We're on track to do maybe mate, we're crossing our fingers, hoping for 200, 250, maybe 2 75 frames. [00:28:52] Craig Dalton: [00:28:52] That's amazing because every one of them, ones that I've seen come out of the mosaic shop is super special and unique, at least aesthetically.  [00:28:59] Zack Spear: [00:28:59] Yeah. It's it's good. I think so, too. I'm setting up the fixture for each and every frame we do. And usually I'm talking with mark trying to get a picture of who we're doing this bike for, and he's always got a cool story of you know, this person may have hurt their back or this person's like a big crit racer, six foot six rower from Stanford. [00:29:15] He needs big tubes. He's putting down big Watts. So we're getting there. You know, we're making frames for people. It's cool. I love  [00:29:21] Craig Dalton: [00:29:21] that feeling. She started on that thread. I always like to ask the question, like what's that customer journey look like for someone who picks up the phone and gets in contact with mosaic? [00:29:30]Zack Spear: [00:29:30] Typically we like, we, like when our bike shops are putting the frames out cause they can we're starting to get a big influx of orders and it helps when our bike shops can do some of that upfront work for us and figure out how the Bill's gonna look. What cranks are we using? What tires of this guy want. [00:29:45] And then yeah, mark a whip up a geo he'll start talking paint with the customer. And then when it comes into my hands, we have a total idea of exactly how this bike's going to look. What kind of pain we're going to do. Head badge is going to be mirror, finished everything. Then I build it. Aaron welds it. [00:30:01] We QC it. Make sure it fits all the everything's right. It's to spec. And then we send it over to paint. And that's when you. The moneymaker paying jobs.  [00:30:10] Craig Dalton: [00:30:10] What does that what does that look like from a timeframe perspective? I know it varies all over the place, but right now ask  [00:30:15] Zack Spear: [00:30:15] me that I'm not at Liberty. [00:30:17] No we're slammed right now. I think for me personally, I'm doing, I average about one and a quarter frames per day. And I'll try to do big batches of prep work and then batches of frames and One in a quarter. So like I'll do two frames a day for a week and then I'll start prepping frames the next week. [00:30:35] But that's about my timeline.  [00:30:36] Craig Dalton: [00:30:36] Gotcha. And tell me about the beautiful bike you've brought to the end of the  [00:30:39] Zack Spear: [00:30:39] build around, up. Yeah. This guy named Charlie in Chicago, he went through Vela Smith. They put you tap in V on it and it's a GT 1 45. He's got some oversize tubes on it. He wants to drive some Watson to that frame. [00:30:54] So he's got a. 19 millimeter see stays. He's got a 44 millimeter down to a 34, 9 seat too. It's going to be good and stiff for him. If it's a 45 millimeter tire, pretty slam geo it's going to handle pretty snappy. It's like almost like a gravel crit bike, so you can really shred some dirt with, and he wanted some green in there. [00:31:14] He was talking with mark and mark was thinking, man, let's do a Tri-Faith for this. And we made it like a mango Tri-Faith and. Before it went to paint. Mark got the idea of do let's throw some basketball sparkle in there. And when you see that thing in the sun has got there's some purples in some greens in, in the orange part of the Tri-Faith. [00:31:33] It's beautiful.  [00:31:34] Craig Dalton: [00:31:34] Yeah. It does really pop as a show bike. It's gorgeous. And how cool is it that's an actual customer bike that's going to be delivered presumably weeks after the  [00:31:41] Zack Spear: [00:31:41] show. It's a, I think it's really cool. I mean, I've never been at mosaic when we've purposely built a show. W everything we're doing is customer bikes. [00:31:50] And it's cool that our customer bike is a show bike and vice versa. You know, we're getting to that level where every bike has dialed coming out of the shop. We'll take any of them to the NBA, open house and be proud of what we're bringing.  [00:32:01] Craig Dalton: [00:32:01] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the weld quality is just always top. It's  [00:32:04] Zack Spear: [00:32:04] amazing. [00:32:05] Yeah. And he's got way more than those 10,000 hours, you know, he's good that I can weld. He can slap a beat down. Cool. Well, I appreciate  [00:32:12] Craig Dalton: [00:32:12] the overview. This is awesome.  [00:32:13] Zack Spear: [00:32:13] Awesome. Yeah. Good to meet you.  [00:32:15]Salt Air [00:32:15] Craig Dalton: [00:32:15] All right. Why don't we start off? Just give me your name and the brand name.  [00:32:19] Matt Nelson: [00:32:19] Yeah, Matt Nelson. Pretty much the builder at salt air cycles. It's just me. And where are you located? Salt  [00:32:25] Craig Dalton: [00:32:25] lake city. And tell me about the types of bikes you like to build.  [00:32:28]Matt Nelson: [00:32:28] It's pretty much gravel. I mean, when I started building it wasn't necessarily called gravel, off-road mixed terrain bikes with Dropbox. [00:32:36] It's been my forte and that's what people come to me for the most part. I mean, I do hard tails occasionally. Like I, I love mountain biking. I have a couple of hard tails myself, but yeah, it's, you know, sometimes it'll just be like a road bike that takes 30 twos. But it's mostly, you know, something to take up to a 40 sometimes more yeah, with drop bars. [00:32:56] Craig Dalton: [00:32:56] And is it a completely custom operation?  [00:32:59] Matt Nelson: [00:32:59] It is. Yeah, I don't do any production bikes. And to be honest, my price point doesn't really yet reflect full custom. But they're all, you know, they're, one-offs, you know, so my price point basically will include custom geometry, custom sizing just because of the way I am. [00:33:16] Great. And  [00:33:17] Craig Dalton: [00:33:17] how long have you been building  [00:33:18] Matt Nelson: [00:33:18] bikes for? I built my first bike in 2000. I went to a UBI, the United bicycle Institute in Portland. And at the time I was a, an architect and I just had the bug and built my first bike really loved it, came back home to salt lake and just wanting to do more. [00:33:38] So building for friends and just getting more experience. And then in 2014, I think I registered as a business with the salt lake. But I still had a full-time job as an architect. And then it just grew from there. And then as of January, 2016 on my full-time job and tell  [00:33:55] Craig Dalton: [00:33:55] us about the frame materials you'd like to use PRI  [00:33:58] Matt Nelson: [00:33:58] primarily steel. [00:33:59]I occasionally I'll do some stainless like full stainless frames but it's a lot of Columbus Sometimes Reynolds, but yeah, I've ventured. I've done. I did do one stainless frame with carbon yeah. CMASS, which actually collaborated with NBN. But yeah, steals my thing and I'm actually a braiser so I don't, well, I'm not a TIG welder, so I do fill it braised bikes lug bikes for people that like the classic look and then sometimes mix and match. [00:34:26] Like I'll do a Bilan.  [00:34:29] Craig Dalton: [00:34:29] And tell me about the ride quality. If someone calls and asks about, you know, what's the output? What do you, what's the feeling the writer's going to get on one of your bikes?  [00:34:37] Matt Nelson: [00:34:37] Yeah. So I mean, a lot of people will think of steel or what's been circulated out. [00:34:42] There is like steel is real and you know, it has a great ride quality, especially for off-road. And that's true. I mean, you can build a steel bike. That's. What's the right word. I mean, it's more forgiving. It's going to flex in all the right parts, but you can also build a very S stiff frame you know, say someone wants to do crit racing or whatever, and they just want a stiff frame, you know, that they can race on for 45 minutes. [00:35:05]It's just there's. I mean, the tube technology that Columbus and the other brands Reynolds have continued to push even when after aluminum and then car. Became the top performing materials. They've continued to make their toot differ stronger and thinner wall. So they can be lighter. But yeah. [00:35:28]So to answer your question, I mean, I, my personal, like for mixed dream writing is a bike. That's like an, oh, what they call oversize tube standards. So in these days, if you look at the bike and it looks like a skinny tube bike, but yeah. It's actually pretty stiff depending on the size, but it can you can do, you know, it feels great. [00:35:50] It doesn't beat you up on a long 90 mile, 8,500 feet climb, mixed train ride. And then again, for a bigger writer that might be flexing a frame that, yeah. You know, someone who weighs 150 pounds, you can up-size those tubes and. You can tune the ride, you can tune the quality of the ride.  [00:36:08] Craig Dalton: [00:36:08] Is that sort of, part of the customer journey with you? [00:36:10] If I call you up looking for a bike, do we work through what I'm looking for? What my body, weight and  [00:36:14] Matt Nelson: [00:36:14] sizes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I want, there's a big thing I want to hear from you. Like how do you plan on using the bike? What kind of writing do you like to do? Aesthetics comes into, I mean, I do get customers who are like, you know, I love steel, but I don't want to S I don't want one of those skinny tube. [00:36:30] Or old school looking bikes. And you know, like Columbus came out with their Cento tube set, which is like their a hundred year anniversary, I think in 2019. And that's probably the stiffest that tube set alone is probably the stiffest steel tubes that I've ever seen. It just has a massive 44 millimeter down tube and, you know, tapered seat too. [00:36:53] Oversized integrated head too. And then the the chain stays are actually much taller. I think they're like 36 compared to the standard 30 oval design. So it makes a super stiff bike, still relatively light as well, depending on what size it  [00:37:08] Craig Dalton: [00:37:08] is. Can you tell me about the bike that you've brought to the NV builder? [00:37:11] Roundup?  [00:37:12] Matt Nelson: [00:37:12] Yeah. So that bike is, I mean, I'm calling it the rodeo, especially all it's set up to do these, you know, 60, 70, 80, 90 mile gravel grinders, mixed terrain. I mean it's a lot like a cyclocross bike, but through some water bottle losses on it, a a little bit more clearance for a bigger tire. [00:37:31] So the one I brought too is, you know, can fit up to a 4,700 seat by 40. Again, this one's a Phillip race bike actually. Most of my frames, I send to Colorado to get painted. But I went did a liquid job locally and it turned out really well. I, this bike is actually for a local writer who w he's going to ride tomorrow and it's going to be his first time. [00:37:54] Right. But I think he'll be he'll be stoked on it. And he's he's a mountain goat here. I think he's going to really Excel on this bike and on this course tomorrow.  [00:38:03] Craig Dalton: [00:38:03] Nice. Thanks for the overview. I appreciate it.  [00:38:06] Matt Nelson: [00:38:06] Yeah, you bet. Thank you. [00:38:07]Holland Cycles [00:38:07]Craig Dalton: [00:38:07] Let's start out by getting your name and the company [00:38:09] you  [00:38:09] work for.  [00:38:10] Cody Stevenson: [00:38:10] Cody Stevenson from Holland cycles out of San  [00:38:13] Craig Dalton: [00:38:13] Diego, California. And tell us a little bit about Holland.  [00:38:15] Cody Stevenson: [00:38:15] So Holland has been in business now for 47 years building frames. It's bill Holland. And I came on into the fold with bill about 10 years. [00:38:25] And  [00:38:25] Craig Dalton: [00:38:25] when he started out, was he starting in a steel bike?  [00:38:28] Cody Stevenson: [00:38:28] Exactly. He did steel frames and then he went through, into the titanium realm back with Eisentrout many moons ago. And and then we also offer in the last 10 years here, we've offered a carbon option as well.  [00:38:43] Craig Dalton: [00:38:43] Interesting. Tell me about the show bikey brought to ENVE. [00:38:46] Cody Stevenson: [00:38:46] He had a show like that. We brought is it's our HGT. I, so it is a, it's one about gravel models. This one is a two-by system with clearance for 50 mil tires. It's got a real sweet, so the AR 3.4 was on it. It's my personal bike. So I get to rip it up tomorrow when the Graziadio and you know, just a lot of the features that you want to touch on with with a gravel bike. [00:39:08] You want it to be able to perform, obviously you want it to be comfortable. And you wanted to. That's  [00:39:13] pretty  [00:39:13] Craig Dalton: [00:39:13] big tire clearance. How are you able to achieve that?  [00:39:17] Cody Stevenson: [00:39:17] Lots of bending. Yeah, just bending stays and placement of of the stays at the bottom bracket. Just really honing in on how can we get the best of both worlds in regard to clearance for the tire and also have enough clearance for your  [00:39:32] Craig Dalton: [00:39:32] chain rings. [00:39:33] What does the journey look like for a customer who wants to get a Holland titanium frame?  [00:39:37] Cody Stevenson: [00:39:37] First thing that a customer needs. Pick up the phone and give me a call and we set up a feeding appointment. We're really big on doing the feedings. In-house we have people flying all over the country to come and do the fitting because we feel that the fitting obviously is the first piece of it, but we also like to figure out. [00:39:54] The individual wants from a ride quality and a handling perspective, because there's so many options that we can do with the frames. And then obviously anything with custom it's hurry up and white. You get put into the build list. We do complete bikes or frame sets and obviously lead times were much easier to decipher 18 months ago. [00:40:15] And right now We are in a nice position of being able to still get blacks out the door. But obviously with the influx of ordering where nine to 12 months out on delivery at this  [00:40:27] Craig Dalton: [00:40:27] point. Gotcha. Was there a point in time going back a few years since you've been there 10 years, that you started to see this influx of, Hey, I want a bigger tire. [00:40:36] Hey, I'm writing this off.  [00:40:38] Cody Stevenson: [00:40:38] Absolutely. And I I mean, I'm a roadie per se, but I grew up racing BMX. So I love to taking my bike off road, even though it was a road bike with caliber brakes. And definitely we we got more and more of the, sort of the murmurings of you know, can we put it 28 on this? [00:40:55] Can we, you know, whichever. Was this, you know, some astounding width tire and you know, can we run 90 PSI? And you know, so from there, it, obviously they evolved into, you know, let's get rid of calipers and where we're all in on, you know, whatever whatever clearance we can get for options. I mean, if you can get as much clearance, you can always put a 32 or 35 times. [00:41:19] If  [00:41:19] Craig Dalton: [00:41:19] you had to hazard a guess, what percentage of the bikes are tending towards gravel?  [00:41:22]Cody Stevenson: [00:41:22] Basically for us, it's almost split directly down the middle. So we offer our gravel blocks with titanium and then we have a carbon road frame as well as an option. And we actually still do that in a rim brake option. [00:41:34] So remain disk in on the carbon roadside of things. But yeah, I mean, if we get a call for a titanium frame, it's a Graebel frame.  [00:41:42] Craig Dalton: [00:41:42] And are you on the carbon side? Forgive me if I missed this, but is it exclusively on the roadside or do you make carbon gravel bikes as  [00:41:49] Cody Stevenson: [00:41:49] well? We do not make a carbon Graebel buck. [00:41:51]We feel that titanium is a better material, just from an impact perspective. We do our road bike has clearance for 35 mil ties, but it is not a graveled life. Right.  [00:42:02] Craig Dalton: [00:42:02] That makes sense. Since I'm curious. And you mentioned it earlier about that internal process, right? Making carbon fiber frames out of San Diego. [00:42:11] Can you just talk it? I sort of high-level for the listeners, so they understand, I mean, it blows my mind that the carbon fiber is coming in these sheets and you're going from there.  [00:42:20] Cody Stevenson: [00:42:20] Sure. So yeah, obviously with the carbon fiber road friends, we use lugged system to customize it. So we have obviously individual chews that are laid up just like any tube. [00:42:31]And and then we have lugs, which are, as part of the matrix are designed to accept certain angles and Wolf thicknesses. So there's 86 different molds to make all of the custom frames and all of the custom sizes. And  [00:42:46] Craig Dalton: [00:42:46] is the, are the lugs made out of a different material?  [00:42:49] Cody Stevenson: [00:42:49] No, Barbara as well. [00:42:51] And so yeah, it's a completely common, yeah. And the nice piece about it is that the ride quality that we get out of the lug design is that you get a vibration damping quality when you have a material. Two dissimilar materials put together. And the poxy that's bonding the carbon together at the lug dissipates vibration. [00:43:12]You get a really nice subtle right out of it. And you can make the frame really nice. And fortunately region  [00:43:18] Craig Dalton: [00:43:18] as you're manufacturing the tubes, are you going back to that customer discussion? Right? You know, this is a 180 pound person, and they're looking for this ride quality and making modifications to the weeds. [00:43:28] Absolutely.  [00:43:28] Cody Stevenson: [00:43:28] We have zero stock of anything, carbon fiber, except for the carbon fiber sheets themselves. Everything is laid up for the individual. We use different modulates for the individual. We do obviously different bias. I mean the whole nine yards. Everything is for the individual, not just from a sizing perspective, but ride quality and. [00:43:50] I  [00:43:50] Craig Dalton: [00:43:50] think that's super cool. I mean, a lot of times when you think of buying that custom bike, historically, it was going to be a metal bike and you thought about the person welding it, et cetera, but it is mind blowing to imagine that you can weave the carbon fiber tube based on my personality. [00:44:04] I want the bike to it.  [00:44:05] Cody Stevenson: [00:44:05] Absolutely it is. And the big reason behind being able to do that is that we have Mike Lopez on board with us who. Reynolds composites back in the day, the Reynolds ouzo pro fork came out of the same shop that our carbon is coming out of. He built all them, the Vici with Serrata all of the carbon that was on Serota otros. [00:44:27] It came from Mike Lopez and he is the brains behind all of that. And we're really fortunate to be a team working.  [00:44:33] Craig Dalton: [00:44:33] Amazing. Thanks for the overview. I appreciate it. You're very welcome. Thank you. [00:44:37]Allied [00:44:37]Okay, why don't we start off. Can you tell me your name and the company you work for?  [00:44:41] Drew Medlock: [00:44:41] Yeah, I'm drew Medlock CEO at ally.  [00:44:44] Craig Dalton: [00:44:44] Drew. Tell me about that beautiful allied echo that I just saw.  [00:44:49] Drew Medlock: [00:44:49] Cool. Yeah, actually it's my bike. We even are not. It's my personal bike that has now turned into a show bike. [00:44:55] That's a good feeling. It is a good, it's a good ability to get, to show it off all the time, but I haven't got to ride it.  [00:45:00] Craig Dalton: [00:45:00] It had to stay clean for this event, I imagine. Yeah. Will it get dirty tomorrow, like rodeo? Maybe  [00:45:05] Drew Medlock: [00:45:05] I think rodeo tomorrow sounds more like an able run. So if I'm reading that one correctly. [00:45:10] So I think there'll be bigger tires than the echo.  [00:45:13] Craig Dalton: [00:45:13] Let's talk about the echo as you and I were talking about offline. It's a really unique beast in the gravel market because it bridges that fine line between super capable road, bike, and super capable. Off-road.  [00:45:27] Drew Medlock: [00:45:27] Yeah, absolutely. When we designed it, we were actually trying to start ground up with a amazing road bike that also could do gravel. [00:45:34] And we really worried that you'd arbitrary and the performance really on a grand tour level road bike. So we were thinking like, this is why you should compete against a tarmac at a grand tour, but then also be able to run up to 40 millimeter tires. And that's from the aesthetics and also the performance that's really what we  [00:45:50] Craig Dalton: [00:45:50] were going for. [00:45:51] So let's talk about that unique. Chip technology that kind of enables this to happen.  [00:45:57] Drew Medlock: [00:45:57] Yeah. So the bike uses a flip chip, which, you know, from mountain bikers out there know that's nothing new, right. That's been done a lot. But what it allows us to do on this bike specifically is lengthen the chains day by one centimeter. [00:46:10] So you go from like a grand tour, erode geometry, super short chain stays to a centimeter longer and run 10 millimeters, more tire volume. And then on the front raises the axle to crown by one centimeter. Greases the tire volume.  [00:46:23] Craig Dalton: [00:46:23] And does that change the head tube angle?  [00:46:25] Drew Medlock: [00:46:25] So it slackens out the geometry of the bike just a little bit. [00:46:28] So you actually do get a true different geometry for road and gravel mode. I think for me personally, I've written a lot of bikes that are like a gravel bike that you can also put road wheels on. And for me that somebody is designed to work with bikes. I always feel like the road bike, you know, I'm riding a gravel bike with small tires on it. [00:46:46] It really doesn't handle the way a true road, race bikes. And so we wanted something that really could do both.  [00:46:52] Craig Dalton: [00:46:52] So on that flip ship, on the fork, it's a vertical movement. Correct. And then on the stay it's a horizontal, correct? Yeah.  [00:46:59] Drew Medlock: [00:46:59] So just links into the chase day or raises the axle to crown.  [00:47:03] Craig Dalton: [00:47:03] And then tell me about the adjustment that you need to make on the brake caliper to achieve that movement and how you've  [00:47:09] Drew Medlock: [00:47:09] executed that. [00:47:10] Yeah, so basically the breakout per the chip actually is on a It's mounted to the fork. So the caliper is actually mounted to the piece that moves. So the caliper on the front doesn't actually have to be readjusted at all, given that if you're using it we'll set with the same hub, right? When you shut, swap away, same for the rear. [00:47:28]The rear, you do have to take one caliper, bolt out to move it, but the caliper still stains in the same position. So if you're using the same set of hubs St. Brander rotors, you probably will not have to change your readjust your brakes after swap.  [00:47:41] Craig Dalton: [00:47:41] When you're in gravel mode, what type of tire clearance  [00:47:44] Drew Medlock: [00:47:44] do you have? [00:47:45] 40 millimeter actual. And the tire cleaners is at that peace of mind, cause everybody like what your tire says on a hot stamp on side has nothing to do with actually what size it is. So for all you all writers out there, it's a good thing to know. I've seen 40 millimeter tires that measure 38, 40 millimeter tires at wizard or a 44. [00:48:04] So we are measuring actually 40 millimeters attire. And that's including four millimeters of additional parents at the rear of the bike as well. Right. You know, Collin actually ran bigger than a 40 at Unbound gravel that a lot of people notice he's running in 42 specialized Pathfinder. [00:48:19]So it does fit because we actually do have clearance, but he was in the our safety zone for parents that we'd like to keep for everyday years or so with mud and, you know, Yeah. Junk fluids through your frame, just to make sure you  [00:48:32] Craig Dalton: [00:48:32] protect it for it. Yeah. That's what Collin mentioned to me. He said he's like on a dry day, I stuck a 42 in there. [00:48:37] I didn't have a concern, but I wouldn't be doing that in a muddy course. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was super exciting to see him ride that bike on Unbound 201 weekend and then Tulsa tough criteria I'm  [00:48:51] on  [00:48:51] Drew Medlock: [00:48:51] the road. Yeah. That was nuts and completely unexpected. And you know, it was even going to Unbound. [00:48:57] He was really like. You know, different bikes, he was gonna ride the able, or the echo. And in the end he'd been putting most of the miles on the echo and he felt the most comfortable on it. And it's a lower front end. So he's got a lower profile on the bikes. So it was probably a little faster on the bike as well. [00:49:12] So that was the call to go with the echo. And then, you know, for Tulsa tough, like manage, like we said, we designed that thing as a road racing machine, you know, with the road setting for the geometry. No problem. When he was in the breakaway and crab crybaby hill. So worked out pretty good. [00:49:25] Craig Dalton: [00:49:25] You expect interesting and new things from allied at Unbound every year. So the pressures just keep, keeps getting amped  [00:49:32] Drew Medlock: [00:49:32] up. Well, we did have a skip year, so that gave us a little bit of breathing room. So  [00:49:37] Craig Dalton: [00:49:37] that's true. So you might be on an every two  [00:49:39] Drew Medlock: [00:49:39] year cycle. Yeah, we'll see. think we've got some new stuff come up or sleeve, so we'll see what the timing looks like. [00:49:44] Craig Dalton: [00:49:44] Awesome. And it's worth noting. You're manufacturing in America. See, it's all under one roof now, is that right?  [00:49:50] Drew Medlock: [00:49:50] Yeah. Everything's under one roof far full manufacturing team is located in Northwest Arkansas and we build everything from the ground up there. The echo is a real special bike for us, not just because of the performance, but also that bike was developed all by the new team after we moved to our new factory and Rogers, Arkansas. [00:50:08] And so it's a huge achievement for our team and this being able to put it off. No just performance and sports stuff out there, but also all our, you know, maturity and our, their manufacturing techniques together for the spike. And so we're really excited about it. And we're building, you know, almost every single part of that bike in house, including all the alway flip chips and dropouts and the stem. [00:50:30] So it's super exciting.  [00:50:31] Craig Dalton: [00:50:31] Nice. What does a customer journey look like to get their hands on one of these  [00:50:34] Drew Medlock: [00:50:34] bikes? Yeah, so I go, does it as an ally cycle works. You can actually jump on and we have several different bill options and you can check it out and actually configure, you know what wheels you want, paint, you want all that stuff online and then you can hit us up directly. [00:50:47] Or if you have a good local dealer you can open them up too.  [00:50:50] Craig Dalton: [00:50:50] And what does turnaround time look like these days  [00:50:53] Drew Medlock: [00:50:53] for echos? We're running between eight to 10 weeks delivery. Of course, that major caveat there is on lead times for parts. Somethings we are better on than others right now. So that's always, you know, the tricky questions because we're good at making echoes within eight to 10 weeks, but Shimano and Schramm are not very good at delivering REITs right now. [00:51:14] Craig Dalton: [00:51:14] Yeah. It's you can throw extra labor at building something fast, stay up late, really hit that customer delivery date, but we can't control global supply chains.  [00:51:23] Drew Medlock: [00:51:23] Yeah. Unfortunately  [00:51:24] Craig Dalton: [00:51:24] we can't. Yeah. Well, congrats on the execution of the ACA I think it's a great bike and I'm super excited to see where it goes. [00:51:31] [00:51:31]So that's going to do it for this week's episode of the gravel ride podcast. [00:51:35]I hope you enjoyed those mini builder interviews. And got a little bit of a sense for their process and what it's like purchasing a custom bike. There are a ton of great options out there. All the builders represented in the NV partner network are creating exceptional products. Some of them, one of a kind.  [00:51:54]Take a look at some of the websites, take a look at some of the videos out there online.  [00:51:59] You won't be disappointed at what you see from the ENVE builder Round-up.   [00:52:02]Huge, thanks to ENVE for their support of the podcast and a huge thank you for them putting together this event. I know, I look forward to seeing it every year and to be out there in person this year, followed by that massive grody or ride was a real pleasure. Until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels  

- Press the PLAY button to listen to the catechesis of the day and share if you like -+ A reading from the Book of Genesis +The Lord appeared to Abraham by the Terebinth of Mamre,              as Abraham sat in the entrance of his tent,              while the day was growing hot.    Looking up, he saw three men standing nearby.    When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them;              and bowing to the ground, he said:              "Sir, if I may ask you this favor,              please do not go on past your servant.    Let some water be brought, that you may bathe your feet,              and then rest yourselves under the tree.    Now that you have come this close to your servant,              let me bring you a little food, that you may refresh yourselves;              and afterward you may go on your way."    The men replied, "Very well, do as you have said."         Abraham hastened into the tent and told Sarah,              "Quick, three measures of fine flour!      Knead it and make rolls."    He ran to the herd, picked out a tender, choice steer,              and gave it to a servant, who quickly prepared it.    Then Abraham got some curds and milk,              as well as the steer that had been prepared,              and set these before them;              and he waited on them under the tree while they ate.         They asked him, "Where is your wife Sarah?"    He replied, "There in the tent."    One of them said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year,              and Sarah will then have a son."    Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent, just behind him.    Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years,              and Sarah had stopped having her womanly periods.    So Sarah laughed to herself and said,              "Now that I am so withered and my husband is so old,               am I still to have sexual pleasure?"    But the Lord said to Abraham: "Why did Sarah laugh and say,              'Shall I really bear a child, old as I am?'    Is anything too marvelous for the Lord to do?    At the appointed time, about this time next year, I will return to you,              and Sarah will have a son."    Because she was afraid, Sarah dissembled, saying, "I didn't laugh."    But he replied, "Yes you did."The Gospel of the Lord.

Join us as Jessika takes us on a behind-the-scenes tour of the 1990s Ninja Turtle movies. Come for the stories about Jim Henson, stay for the ragging on Corey Feldman. We will not be discussing the Michael Bay abominations. ----more---- Episode 9 Transcription [00:00:00] Jessika: God, am I wheezy on my microphone right now? Hello. Welcome to Ten Cent Takes the podcast where we serve comics knowledge on the half shell, one issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazier and I'm joined by my cohost, the righteous reader, Mike Thompson. Hello?  Mike: Hello. Jessika: Well, the purpose of our podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're going to be discussing movies from a genre that is very near and dear to my heart, the Teenage Mutant Ninja [00:01:00] Turtles.Now we won't be doing a deep dive into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles franchise, but stay tuned for a future episode. We are going to be talking about the live action, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films from the nineties, the drama leading up to the making of the films, the ingenuity, and detailed involved in the filming itself, along with the casting crew and some of their recollections and anecdotes.But before we do Mike, what is a one cool thing you've read or watched lately? Mike: well, I know what we have both been watching actually. And I feel like, uh, maybe you need to start off this  conversation.  Jessika: So, yeah, cause I, I see that you have written the same thing as I, as we do have a shared file here.  Well, I watched the first few episodes of MODOK, which just came out this year and it is witty and wonderful.  Mike: I think it came out like a week ago.  Jessika: Oh, sweet. Mike: Yeah, like it's real [00:02:00] fresh.  Jessika: Well, thank you to my friend who was like, we need to watch this because you'll really enjoy it. And in fact I did. So, and now that I have my head sort of out of turtle world, I'll be able to watch a little bit more. But for those of you who haven't seen it yet, it follows a blundering Marvel villain with a big head and a super tiny body named MODOK. He flies around on this little hover in this little hover situation. It's very funny. And it follows his evil ventures and how they bleed into his family life in the suburbs, and it is produced by a variety of people. One of whom is Seth green and the show does have a very, a robot chicken vibe to it. It's done in Claymation and can get pretty violent and graphic,  in a Claymation kind of way. But I wouldn't say it's a kid show. I also got a star-studded cast Patton Oswalt is in it. Amy Garcia, Ben Schwartz -whom I loved in Parks and Rec- John Hamm, Nathan Fillion, Whoopie shows up. There's a ton of people.I'm only four episodes in out [00:03:00] of the ten, that comprise season one, but I'm super looking forward to laughing my way through the remaining six potentially tonight. Mike: I'm not going to spoil it for you, but Alan Tudyk shows up in a role where he sounds almost exactly like Joker from Harley Quinn. It's great. Jessika: Oh, I'm so excited.  So what did you think about it? Mike: We loved it. So Sarah and I wound up bingeing it last Friday when we didn't have the kids, because we knew it was not a friendly show,  as you get the warning at the very beginning, talking about how this is a mature show and it is not, not for small children. I think we binged all of it in one night because you know, it was only 10 episodes and they're half hour.  So we didn't know  much about it. Other than I'd seen a promo image for it. I had seen a bunch of nerds getting mad about it online, but I also knew that Patton Oswalt was involved. So I was already sold because anything that man touches I will consume. We wound up just being blown out of the water. And it's so funny while also [00:04:00] being weirdly faithful to Marvel Comics lore and in a weird twist,  we wound up adopting a dog two days later. And, it was very unexpected. It was a very spur of the moment thing where we saw this dog online and then decided to apply for him. And we got him and I didn't think this was actually going to fly, but Sarah agreed to it, much to her chagrin I'm sure later on, but we named him MODOG. So MODOG stands for Miniature Organism Designed Only for Gnawing because he's a puppy and he's chewing on everything as puppies do. We call him Mo for short, there's a graphic designer at my company who immediately whipped up an image of him MODOK's doomsday chair. So it's his face, but then MODOK's body. It's great. And I've shared it everywhere. And now I have a new life goal where I want to have Patton Oswalt meet my dog and then sign a printing of that graphic.So. Patton Oswalt, future friend of the podcast, please hit us up.  Jessika: That was a really cute picture. [00:05:00] I literally LOL'd when I saw it. Mike:It was very good. It's also been turned into a Slack emoji in our work slack. And as a result, it's just getting spammed by everybody on my team.  Jessika:  Deservedly so.  Nowonto our main topic, which is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films. First, I want to give a shout out to the resources I used in my research of these films. IMDB.com, movie web.com. There was a whole  interview with the cast and crew of the making of the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films from the Hollywood reporter.com. Turtlepediafandom.com, which is very well organized and has tons of information with resources cited and the film, The Definitive History of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is basically the history told through compiled interviews of [00:06:00] those involved in making this amazing franchise. So these live action films, I don't know about you. I absolutely remember watching these as a kid, although I didn't realize that until I started watching them again and was immediately able to recall every scene from the first film. And we were also very much, and I've said this before on the podcast, we were very much a teenage mutant ninja turtle household.So it makes total sense that we would have watched that at some point, probably numerous times. I presume you also watched them as a kid. What was your experience with the films? Mike: I mean, I was born in the early eighties, I was very much that target demographic for the Turtles. My mom actually took me to see the first movie, I think four times.  Jessika: Oh, wow.  Mike: I think I mentioned in that Saturday Morning Cartoon episode, that the last time she just sat in the lobby and read a book Jessika: I still love that story. Mike: Yeah,  which, f you ever meet my mom, that, that checks out. She's like, meh, he'll be fine. He'll be [00:07:00] fine. What's the worst that could happen. Letting my eight-year-old go into a movie theater alone. But yeah,  I saw both sequels in the theater too. I think I saw The Secret of the Ooze twice. And then the third one was fine. I mean, we got it on video and I remember watching it a bunch of times with my siblings because they were pretty young and we would just pop it on because it was something that could entertain all of us, but it wasn't one of those things that we needed to see over and over again in the movie theater, as opposed to the other ones.I had so many of the action figures when I was a kid and I was just addicted to the cartoon for like longer than it was cool.  Jessika: Hard same. Very much so.  Mike: But I weirdly wasn't really into the comics. The Ninja Turtle comics were just never something that I was all that curious about. I was already into Marvel and DC and Image and all that stuff.  Jessika: Yeah. Very nice. I'm going to get into production, actors and success of each of the films along with some other fun facts. [00:08:00] But first, can you please give me a brief overview of the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle film? Mike: Sure. So Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is  the proverbial superhero origin movie. It's set in a New York that's still rocking the grit of the eighties, and it's also showing a bit more urban decay than we're used to. This New York is in the throes of a crime wave due to the Foot Clan, which has been recruiting wayward teens, and eventually training them to be ninjas of all things. I don't quite understand how you go from recruiting teens to just  commit petty burglaries and then rewarding them with a giant warehouse full of video arcade cabinets and skateboarding ramps and graffiti walls. And regular or menthol cigarettes as was demonstrated in the scene that we get to see a very young Sam Rockwell selling the Foot Clan to teenagers.The movie introduces us to the Ninja Turtles, their leaders Splinter, the vigilante Casey Jones, [00:09:00] and TV reporter April O'Neil, as they all deal with the crime wave in their own ways. But then they eventually work together to defeat Shredder and his army.  Jessika: Yeah. That totally sums it up. What did you think of the film overall on the rewatch? Mike: Honestly, I was surprised by how well it's aged. it's not like the current crop of superhero movies where those are clearly meant to be watched by adults who are fans of the franchise. And then also make it accessible to kids. This was clearly meant to be a kids movie that was tolerable for their parents who got dragged to the theater. It's a lot darker and grittier than I remembered. And a lot of those elements really went over my head as a kid. The Turtles and Splinter themselves, I also think are really impressive, which isn't surprising since the costumes and puppetry were handled by the Jim Henson company. I mean, when you hire the best you get the best. But yeah, most kids during this era had really only been exposed [00:10:00] to the cartoon. So it's a little weird at how serious they went with the overall tone and storyline. My only real complaint was how kind of janky Shredder's costume was, but he actually doesn't show up that much. It's  like he's wearing, do you remember those like weird sequined , evening dresses that were all the rage in the late eighties, early nineties? Jessika: Oh, yes. The ones with the shoulder pads? Mike: Yeah, it kind of looks like someone took the fabric from that and then attached Shredder's blades and shoulder pads. And it's also the wrong color. It's red. They really needed to give him a cape and a belt and I would have been way more okay with that. But it's fine.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: What about you? How do you feel about it?  Jessika: I think it held up pretty well on the rewatch. Like you said, it was super fun. As fun as I remember it. And I really liked April's role in the film, which was kind of, I would say edgy for like the nineties. She's independent. She lives alone, although her boss has absolutely [00:11:00] no boundaries. He just fucking shows up there with his kid and the kid's fucking stealing things from her. Like screw that, don't bring your kid here. Mike: She lives in this weird shithole of an apartment, too. Which doesn't make sense to me because she's apparently  a really well-respected and popular TV journalist.  Jessika: Mike we're women. We can't both have success and nice things  Mike: I'm sorry.  Jessika: That would be really threatening to the patriarchy. I really dig that she follows stories regardless of what others may advise her she should do. Like, she's not about doing fluff pieces. She's just like, no, let's do this thing. And at, one point she's almost mugged and she doesn't tell her boss because why, why, why, why should she, like, nothing happened really? And when he asks her about it, she has this like “for what” attitude, which I'm like, yeah, exactly. For what? Like, why should I, I'm not going to call my boss and be like, “I tripped on the [00:12:00] sidewalk and sprained my ankle.” I don't know. It didn't make any sense. So Mike: That producer really was, he was really there as an excuse to introduce the character of his son. That was really the only purpose that he was there for.  Jessika: Yeah, he popped in and out. He wasn't doing much with that. Yeah. Also the animatronics were surprisingly great. I know it's Jim Henson, but like  the nineties were a really good decade for, good animatronics between like that and Jurassic Park.You know, very, very good. So their movements were just really convincing. And we'll get into, part of why that is, in just a couple of minutes when I talk about the animatronics and the costumes. Mike: Yeah. I'm really excited to talk about that actually.  Jessika: So picture this: It's 1989 and comic book movies were not wildly popular after a couple of recent superhero flops. Their turtles were initially [00:13:00] discovered by Gary Proper, who was a road manager for the comic Gallagher. He had previously worked with Kim Dawson and got her on board as producer. And they signed on Bobby Herbeck as the writer. This was kind of cool because during the writing process, there was a lot of back and forth between Herbeck and the original writers, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird to ensure that the movie was staying true to the comic and, per an interview I read, it was definitely a longer process than Herbeck  had initially thought it would be. Mike:  That makes sense because to be completely honest, the movie feels like a pretty faithful adaptation of the tone of the original comic, which was very over the top and gritty and violent.  Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I do like that. They went back and checked instead of just said, okay, well we have the rights and we're going to run and do what we want to do with this.  So now that they had a script, they had to find funding and a studio and a way to make the Turtles come to [00:14:00] life. So they pitched the idea all around Hollywood. All three of them were incredibly enthusiastic, but the studios were super wary after the recent comic book related box office failures. Mike: So out of curiosity, which movies were those that failed?  Jessika: Howard the Duck? Mike: Oh yeah. Jessika: Yeah. And so it didn't do well. And there was another one before that, too, although it doesn't say on here, but Howard the Duck was the big one that people were like, yikes, we're going to go ahead and back off. Mike: That was George Lucas and Steven Spielberg. And they thought they had like the next star wars and ET their hands. Jessika: I've never even heard of it. Mike: Oh, oh, we should totally do a retrospective on it at some point.  It's based on a Marvel comics character who is a anthropomorphic duck.  They  had a full animatronic suit.  It's like, you know, Ninja Turtle-quality animatronics, and puppetry. It had all sorts of talent involved with it. And it was one of the biggest box office bombs. So that makes a lot of sense actually, because that'd be the closest [00:15:00] thing where you're talking about anthropomorphic comic characters. Jessika: I'm getting flashes of like a big duck costume. So I may have even seen flashes of it in my life,  Mike: It's a weird movie. It's real weird.  Leah Thompson, you know, the mom from Back to the Future is in it and this was like at the height of her popularity too.  Jessika: Oh no poor Leah.  Mike: It's real uncomfortable. There's a whole scene where she's in bed with Howard in lingerie.  Jessika: Ew, with the duck?.  Mike: It's, very weird  Jessika: I don't like it.  Mike: And very uncomfortable. Jessika: It's weird enough having these teenage, like teenage, they are supposed to be fun. Fact, they're supposed to be 15 during this, that they're all like  over April. It's like, Ooh. Like she is definitely a full adult, a full adult, like you are 15 years old and you're, a turtle! Like…  Mike: And that's unfortunately, [00:16:00] something that's carried on. I feel like the one thing that they don't actually ever do a very good job of adapting is the teenage aspect.  I have hope for what we have coming in the future. We'll talk about that later.  Jessika: Yeah, yeah.  Mike: But yeah.  Jessika: Ugh. So they pitched the idea all around Hollywood.  After those comic book related box office failures, after months of persistent nudging, they finally wore down Tom Gray, who was the head of production for Golden Harvest and got approval to light the project with a $3 million budget. And apparently they already had another couple of million  already floating around, like, yeah, no problem. Just, but we need more. Mike: They were already huge, and the funny thing is this is very much like how they actually got their first pitch for getting the action figures made where their agent was driving around with this giant turtle.  I think Playmates was the last toy manufacturer that was actually willing to talk to them and they agreed to it, but they had been making pitches right and left [00:17:00] and no one had picked them up.  Jessika: it was just, it sounded like such a whole thing that they were just like, Fox! How about you? How about blah, blah, blah. And everybody was like, whoa, whoa, you need to leave like exit through where you came from, because we don't want anything you have to tell us.  Mike: Don't even take the main exit, go out the servant's exit. Jessika: Yeah, we don't want to see you leave. Just do it. can teleport. That'd be great.  Mike: We don't want any association with you or your trash. Get out .  Jessika: Oh no. So they hired Steve Barron as director.  Mike: Right. Jessika: Barron  wanted to make sure that the teenage mutant ninja turtles were a hybrid of the lighter animated series, along with the darker vibe of the comics, which is why there is that kind of middle point. It is a little darker, but it's maybe not as dark as the comics and that's intentional. They did want to make it family friendly because the comics really aren't, they're very violent. They're very graphic. You can put a dark spin on things and still make it [00:18:00] family friendly. Barron had also worked with Jim Henson on a previous project and knew Henson's  Creature Shop would make the Turtles more fully believable on screen. Now, the issue was that this was 1990. Jim Henson was arguably the biggest name in the animatronics game, which of course meant his services were not going to be cheap. This edition would be $6 million, which of course was far over their budget. They also had to convince Henson to actually take part in the film because he was concerned that it was too violent for what his puppets should portray and might be a risky move due to his younger fanbase. Took some sweet talking from Barron -which seems to be kind of the name of the game for the Turtles- but Henson finally agreed to assist. And this was the first and what is thought to be the last time that Henson lent out the name to use in this way?  Yeah.  They [00:19:00] had to get another studio involved because they just simply did not have enough money.  Mike: Right.  Jessika: And finally signed on with Fox for a larger budget. Which also fell through. I read an interview that said within 10 days of when they were supposed to start filming, they still didn't have the funding.  Mike: Wow.  Jessika: So they were cutting it incredibly close. I mean, it had literally everything else.  Mike: Come to think of it. I mean, yeah, that's wild. And then also - given the time that this came out- this has gotta be one of the last films that Jim Henson was personally involved with  before he died.  Jessika: Yeah. Actually we'll get into that. We will. Yeah. And not even on this, this part of it, but we'll we'll we'll we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah. New Line Cinema eventually came through and signed on to produce. But offered significantly less money than the 6 million that had been proposed. Golden Harvest owner, Raymond Chow, agreed to fund the remainder of the expenses, whatever those were. Mike: Okay. I mean, that was a great bet for him. [00:20:00] Jessika: Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Shoot. So this is wild. We were talking about Jim Henson. Let's talk about the costumes because those things were awesome. There were actually two sets of costumes for each turtle, one for the animatronics, s

Intro: Should Boz become a band manager? Let Me Run This By You: When you ASSUME. Interview: We talk to Sarah Charipar about playing old ladies when you're barely an adult.FULL TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1: (00:08)I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez and I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Before we begin this episode? Just a little note to say there were some audio problems with this. I did the best I could fixing it up. The content is still good, but you know, sometimes things work out that way. Mercury was in retrograde or something. I'm sure. Anyway, enjoy. Speaker 2: (00:47)Hi. How you doing? How you doing, babe? I stayed up pretty late. You did. Okay. I have these neighbors. Do you know? Oh my God though, that gives me flashbacks. Um, no, no, I have these neighbors, right. I adore them. Okay. They are young, you know, mid, late twenties in a band that I adore and they're trying to get me to be their manager. I don't think that's a great idea just because I don't know how to manage bands. And I am trying to work on my own career, but, but I did give them some feedback, like about how to go about their there's a great band, great kids, you know, kids 20, 27. Yeah. But still kids to me. And, um, anyway, we stayed on the w we have balconies next to each other. So we just sat out there talking while miles, miles was as long asleep at like seven, but I stayed up until nine. Speaker 2: (01:48)So that's late for me. Oh my gosh. I thought all this was building up to like, you stayed up till three in the morning. You got two hours of 7:00 PM. 7:00 PM. Well, he gets up at four. So, um, he goes to bed. No, I shouldn't say last night he did go to bed a little earlier, but usually it's about eight 30, eight, eight 30. It's really quite does he get up at four? Because like, that's his natural body. He likes to do that. He does his burpees. He's Mr. Kind of healthy. He does all this workout stuff and I'm just jealous. That's the reason you didn't see it. But I did like a dismissive hand gestures only because I'm jealous. That's the only reason. So, so he, so anyway, his people were farmers that's. I mean, that's what they say. Like people who are night owls probably have ancestors who were on the night watch, you know, caveman style and people who just a mosquito and people who are early risers were, I mean, I've heard, Oh, I like that. Then that I like that. That means my dad was on the Nightwatch and, uh, or just very Speaker 3: (03:00)Depressed and couldn't go to sleep, but, or I'm going to choose the nightmare. Speaker 4: (03:08)Let me run this by you. Speaker 5: (03:15)I recently called to tell you about, uh, a experience I had with a friend of mine, who I felt like didn't like something I had suggested to them and wasn't responding to my text message and it's, I wasn't, uh, freaked out about it. That's a step forward. And I wasn't even very worried about it, but I thought, okay, well I suggested something to this person. They didn't write me back. My assumption was that they thought it was a terrible idea and didn't want to have any part of it. And I was completely wrong because I had another conversation with this person yesterday. And like, and of course they reason they didn't write me back was completely Speaker 3: (03:56)Had nothing to do logical. Right. And this is Speaker 5: (03:59)So lesson that I can't seem to grasp that. Like my first inclination is always to say, they're mad at me. I did something wrong. Speaker 3: (04:13)Sure. How do I get out of that? I don't know. It's the same. So I think I have the exact same thing. Mine goes mine. It's my first instinct. And I think it's practice of look, actually what I think it is is if you go to that first thing first, which you probably, I probably will, and you probably will, the rest of your life. It's just, just part of the DNA. All right. But the process of working through it right. And getting to the point of being like acceptance of, okay. So if they are mad, okay. So if they are, they hate my guts. Okay. What then, what am I going to, how am I going to take care of myself? If this person is upset or who doesn't want to be my friend or whatever, I think that's the real, um, when of the thing is working through, working with ourselves through that process is the process versus, you know what I'm saying? Like that's the reason it comes up is to, to be worked through and not necessarily that the first instinct will go away because I don't think it will. I just think that's the way we're wired. At least I know that's the way I'm wired. And I think I it's practice of working through so that it becomes less of a whole situation. Um, and more of a, Oh yeah, I did that thing again. Okay. Well, how can I work with myself? Okay. So let me talk it through with somebody, let me, but I, you know, Speaker 5: (05:48)Bernie in that, and I have, I guess now that we're talking about, I guess I have come some, what of a way? I mean, cause it used to just be that I would immediately respond to that person and say like, I'm sorry, I take it back. Or, or like, I know that I know you hate me now. Speaker 3: (06:05)Just start crying profusely, get on the phone and say, I'm sorry, I'm so terrible. Um, and please forgive me. Yeah. Like you said, it was a, be a whole play, a drama Speaker 5: (06:18)And then DBT, uh, I think it was in DBT, but anyway, as a therapist, I would always encourage my clients to check the facts about something, you know, because feelings aren't facts and you know, just because even if you have, even if this person really doesn't care for you, that doesn't mean that every interaction you have you're, you're doing something wrong. You're, you know, you should be put up on the cross. Speaker 3: (06:40)Yeah. It's just ownership of self. And of, I think it really, for me comes down to this core, core, deep, deep belief that I deserve to have my feelings. I deserve to have opinions about things. Um, I deserve to take, um, to take initiative on ideas and even if they're shot down or even if people think it's the stupidest idea in the world, I deserve to throw things out there and see, and you know, it's, it's a deep, deep core situation for me. Yeah. Speaker 5: (07:14)Yeah. It is. And, and I think I I'm really learning. It's there's a big part of it. That's generational too. I mean, you know, when we talk to younger people, they seem a lot less burdened by, I mean maybe sometimes going in the opposite direction. So that was the other thing I was just going to ask you about is now that you've been teaching at DePaul for a minute. Speaker 3: (07:37)Well, now I'm done. It's crazy. Well, I'm not done. I'm done, but yeah, it has been quite the journey. So they're just like us in some ways. It is amazing. So I had 13 individual one-on-ones with these students, um, at 10 minutes each. So I offered one-on-ones because they really wanted that. And they too Speaker 5: (08:06)Knew like her feedback about their Speaker 3: (08:09)Like, to do like therapy. Let's just be honest because they're struggling. And it was my suggestion. It turned into not therapy, but it did turn into a lot of coaching. Let's just say, but they're struggling just like we were, even though there's I would say, yeah, I would say a good 13 out of 24, right. Or 12 out of 24 half are struggling with the exact same thing. I don't have a rep. Other people have reps. Now they get reps before school ends because they they'd been auditioning for, um, agents, um, on zoom. They had like a class where they bring agents in. So half that sets up a dynamic where half the people now have reps and half don't. So the people that don't have acting reps obviously wanted to meet with me partially to say, how do I get a rep? And I'm like, listen, it takes time. You'll find your people. Let me, I, and I offered to help with, I say, send me your showcase link when you have it, your part, your monologue. I will send it to my peeps, but like, it's the same stuff we're dealing. We dealt with. I think they're not quite as quiet about it. Like they're pretty loud about it. Speaker 5: (09:22)They don't have their quiet shame that they'd have to wait 25 years to listen to somebody else on a podcast to go, Oh, I shouldn't have been ashamed about that at all. Everybody was feeling the same thing. Speaker 3: (09:30)Yeah. That they're loud, they're vocal about their issues. So that actually makes it somewhat easier to work with. But it also is. I'm jealous, you know, that they're able to be so vocal. Um, that brings up a lot. I have a lot of feelings of like man D but then at the root they're just as scared as, as we were, well, a lot of them and just as, um, petrified to fail. And just as a, I think it's just an age thing too. And it's also a competition thing. Like there's a lot of competition and within the school, right. Because you set it up, some have repped, some don't and that sets up this whole dynamic of some of these kids or these young people are going on auditions. And they're not like supposed to, but because it's a zoom world, it's a different situation Speaker 5: (10:20)Rule that they're not supposed to, but everybody took advantage of this time. Which of course they did. And I would have thought Speaker 3: (10:26)Of course. And so anyway, it has been, it was in very fascinating ride, but what I did find was, you know, after my 13 one-on-ones I was exhausted. Like I had to lay down, it was like 13 mini therapy sessions. And I was like, and then follow up, you know, I I'm sending certain people resources. So, but I do feel like it was, it didn't, it didn't feel, um, I don't feel resentful. I feel like they paid me really well. And this is part of my deal. And also one of my, one of my strong suits, one of my jams is connecting one-on-one and really listening and saying, Hey, like, you know, let's like you said, like, let's look at the facts here. You know, you haven't graduated yet, but you see, it doesn't matter because when you're that age, you feel like there is no time. And now you look, as we get older, I'm like, Oh my God, you had so much time girl. Speaker 5: (11:23)But the other day sitting at my rate, waitressing job, talking to this guy who was, you know, he was a good 30 years older than me. I was 20, I think. Um, I think it was like 24 and being like, I'm old, I'm at 24. I started thinking I'm almost 25. And then when you're 25, it's over like every, you have to have everything established by the time you're 25 because who, you know, becomes a person after that. Like, I really thought Speaker 2: (11:54)That way. And in part it was because, uh, not because I thought my parents were so emotionally mature because they'd be the first to say, or at least my mom would be the first to say that they weren't, but they own their first house when they were like, they got married at 18, they own their first house right away. Or I guess they rented. But then really soon they own their first house. And that kind of set the bar. Like I felt, I feel like a failure sort of before I even went to school, like, there's no way I'm going to be right. You know, right away. I felt the same. Like I think it's generation. Yeah. I, my parents had their, they didn't have their together emotionally, you know, and, but they definitely own the house and they definitely had job jobs. And, you know, so that, and also the, I guess that speaks to the difference of what kind of, what we culturally value we had. Speaker 2: (12:47)There was no room for valuing like personal growth and development at that time. Whereas that that's gotten much more of a stakehold in terms of our societal values and, and hopefully less and less about what you have and what you own and how much money you have. Oh, well, that's interesting. So if you're listening to this and you're, this is your final year of the theater school, it gets better, you know, it gets better and it's already good. Like there's this combination platter of the, the depth of despair that you may be feeling now that'll get better. Um, but also you are doing it. You are doing the career part. The training is part of the career. Everything that comes after that. Yeah. You'll, you'll, you'll build upon. I mean, that's what we've learned during this podcast. Like you build a PA, even if you leave in 10 years, you find yourself, you didn't do anything, thought what you thought you were going to be doing in this final year. Speaker 6: (13:49)You are using your skills and what you learned there, and you are applicable everywhere. This is your life, you're living it. And this is the life like it's all of today on the podcast, we talked to Sarah charper. Sarah is one of those actresses that multiple people that we've talked to have described as a powerhouse. And she really is, and she's on stage and on screen. She's just so connected. She has such a presence. And, um, we talked to her and it was a lovely conversation. And I just she's has this outlook about the pandemic and about life. That's really inspiring. So I'm so glad we got to talk to Sarah charper on I survived theater school. Enjoy fancy. I, I move your camera so I can see Speaker 2: (14:52)Your beautiful face. I want to see the bottom of your beautiful face there you okay. Oh, you're so you're so I know you're not supposed to say this, but Sarah, you, you have you, are you eating? Speaker 6: (15:05)What's going on? I I'm it's it's so funny. H I said the same thing. I mean, I, I, I don't. I have, I don't. I mean, yes, yes. I'm yes. I'm you look great. Thank you. Just checking that, you know what I did? I, um, I stopped drinking. It was weird. I mean, I haven't, I have not had any alcohol in like three months and all of a sudden, like I have a chin wall. I mean, just like, I think the puffy goat has gone away. Um, yeah. Regrettably, I guess. I, I it's, it's so nice to see your face and I still feel like such a crumb that I, I just think I had a pandemic stroke that last time, but, um, I'm so happy to see that something terrible had Speaker 2: (15:47)Happened. Um, Fred, this passed away. Speaker 6: (15:50)Oh, right. That's right. Yeah. One of the mini pandemic suicides. Um, Oh my God. Yeah. So sorry. Um, but this was super fun, but this is fun. What a. I am Jen before. So before I forget, you have to send me your address because I have something for you that I've had for over a year. And now I feel bad, Gina, because I don't have something for you, but I don't know what to get you, but I do. I'll share it. I do have something for you, Jen, that I've had for a very long time, and you're going to know what it is and when you see it, Oh my God. I can't wait. I can't wait. Well, welcome. And congratulations. Speaker 2: (16:32)You survived theater Speaker 6: (16:33)School. I did allegedly Speaker 2: (16:36)You in actual fact, you survived it and you are. I ha I probably shouldn't be starting this with such a gush, but you, you are such a fantastic actress. I mean, really everything you do now, everything you did in school is fantastic. You are so like deeply connected to everything you do. It's very admirable. Speaker 6: (17:03)Thanks. We hear it all the time. Speaker 2: (17:09)We've heard it from multiple people on the podcast about how much of a powerhouse or like in the, you know, in the Facebook chat situation, how much of a powerhouse. And I think that's the word that comes to mind when I think of your and your you and your acting is like powerhouse, but connected is also like Gina said, totally connected. And I've seen you, you know, in rooms, running casting sessions, and you're the same way you're connected as a reader. You're connected as a casting associates. So you're, Speaker 6: (17:39)You should see me weeping in corners on a regular basis. Speaker 2: (17:43)So, um, did you want to be an actor since you were a young lady? Um, Speaker 6: (17:50)I think, well, my mother always says th th th th my transformative moment, they took me to go. I grew up in upstate New York. So they took me to the Shaw festival and I saw Cyrano de Bergerac and Cyrano was played by this. I want to say, he'd let her know. His name is Heath Heath Lambert, a very diminutive, um, Canadian actor. Well, I say that only because he played Cyrano, who is such a heroic, huge character. Um, and the one we played Roslyn was so beautiful, but more importantly, her hat was amazing. Like she had one of those pointed princess hats with a gossamer hanging down, which I don't know if you it's like, that's the fabric that looks like fairy dust. And my mom is like she said, Sarah, you just sat at the edge of your seat and didn't breathe the entire time. Speaker 6: (18:33)And I still to this day, and I think I might, I think I might've been nine. I still, to this day, remember sitting in that theater, just being like now, granted I was mostly drawn to the fairy dust and the applause, but I, um, I don't think I ever recovered from that moment, but I really, it, it has taken me, um, I'll say I'm, I'm 50 now. I think I've just started to admit that I'm going to be an actor. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think I ever really wanted to own that. I don't think I ever wanted to, although I just said I was 50, but everyone knows that. Um, uh, I don't think I wanted to own that. So I did a lot of things to kind of be like, Oh, I'm going to be an academic. I'm going to, you know, um, so really what kind of academic did you think you might've studied theater? Speaker 6: (19:15)I mean, I got it, got my degree in theater studies and women's studies and religious studies. So really, I just liked studying people and motivation. So it's all the same thing, right? Like, Oh yeah, definitely all the same thing was when it, DePaul, I went to university of Toronto for my undergrad. So, um, they're in there, you know, they're a very rigorous academic school. Um, and it's a totally different than the American system. Like most of your classes are a year long, some are a half year. So it's a really like hardcore, like in some of the colleges they wear robes. It's very, um, not my school, but, um, so yeah, so I, I went there and got a BA in theater in women's studies and, and, um, religious studies, uh, and did have some performance. So that's why I went on to get my masters, um, w where I ended up at DePaul, uh, because I wanted to learn how to act. Speaker 6: (20:09)I mean, I knew what I thought was really great theater. And I worked with incredible people that I still haven't had the gift of working with people of that caliber ever again, but I didn't know how the to do anything. I just felt a lot. Yeah. Did you, did you act as a, in high school, did you say, Oh, golly. No, it wasn't. So it's funny. So I went to my high school, I went to a super urban high school and it was connected to the school of the arts, but again, this fight in me, I was like, I'm not going to go to school, the arts, I'm not going to be one of them. Um, and like, you know, I went to high school with Taye Diggs, whose name is Scott. Um, you know, uh, people who ended up having massive careers. And I sort of sat on the periphery. I did, however, was a part of Speaker 7: (20:48)An improvisational theater group called awareness theater, which is hilarious. And I think about it now. And we went around and did improv for like, doctors about how to deal with kids with like drug addiction or parental issues. And I think I was remembering the day. I think we actually did a performance at Attica, and I'm not even you. Like, I don't know who led us in these places, but we did these improv's about like, don't do the cocaine, but I want to do the cocaine. And like we got in a van and drove to schools. I mean, I had a little sweatshirt, I loved it so much. I loved it so much. Speaker 5: (21:18)So I love that. That's fantastic. So, um, in upstate New York, uh, you went to the shop festival. Did you get, did your parents also take you to Broadway Broadway? Speaker 7: (21:29)Um, I believe so. The first Broadway show I saw was the touring company of Annie. So I saw that in Rochester, the first Broadway show I saw was the tap dance kid. I think Speaker 7: (21:42)Alfonso, Roberto, the kid, yes. Right. He was the tap dance kid. Um, and you guys are, you're younger than me by a lot, but this was the time too, in my junior high, they had to band taps because in the, in the, um, the musical, there were all these great tap numbers where they had like converse sneakers with taps on the bottom. So everyone had to get taps. So as you can imagine, the halls of my high school were just says, coffin is insane. Those got manned along with the Michael Jackson belts. Cause everyone beat each other with them. Speaker 5: (22:14)It was a little aggressive with the spice, Speaker 7: (22:18)The ones with the big name, like the one where you could get them personally, not, you know what I mean? We weren't allowed to wear those as anything could be weaponized with a creative mind Speaker 5: (22:28)When I was in junior high, I got sent home for wearing, um, what I thought was just a cute little accessory in my hair, a bandana, it wasn't red or blue, but I got sent home because there was a no bandana, uh, gang violence in Sacramento at the time that I was in junior high was like real, real, real high. So, uh, anyway, so, okay. So you, uh, did your MFA at DePaul and, and then when you left or when you graduated, were you debating, staying in Chicago, moving to LA moving to New York? Speaker 7: (23:06)No. Um, I I'm realizing now in this pandemic time of reflection, like how much, and I've been thinking so much about this thinking about theater school and stuff. Um, no, I think I was lived with, I think I just lived in fear and waited for permission. So I was waiting for something to tell me where I had to go. Um, and I thought Chicago was a great place to get started. And I, um, I had friends of mine right out of school who had started a company. Um, so we were working together. So that seems like a great little launching pad and then they watched real careers. Um, and, um, Speaker 6: (23:47)Was that sad? Yeah, yeah, Speaker 2: (23:50)Yeah. We were talking to Lee a little bit about it, Speaker 6: (23:52)Eric. I was thinking about him this morning. Um, yeah, so they, um, so I, no, I didn't. I mean, I did, did I think that that call was going to come where I was desperately needed elsewhere. Absolutely. But, um, shockingly, that hasn't arrived yet, but there's time Speaker 2: (24:09)Fair to be fair. You have had calls come for different things. Speaker 6: (24:13)I have, indeed. I have been very lucky. No, I have been very lucky, um, Speaker 2: (24:17)And hardworking. I just want to put that out there, that call comes and then we answer it and we try to show up the best we can and you've done. Speaker 6: (24:25)I appreciate that. And I, and I feel like Speaker 2: (24:27)Ciao hasn't called yet. Judd, Apatow has not called yet, but that doesn't Speaker 6: (24:32)No, and I, it's funny, I have been thinking a lot about, you know, when, when you're ready for things and when you're not. And, um, I don't know if the world is ready, but I kind of feel more ready now than I ever happened. So that's kind of exciting to not feel like your life is over in the midst of all this chaos and breaking down. It's sort of interesting to find, I'm trying to, I'm really trying to silver lining this whole pandemic, so yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: (24:56)Yes, yes. There is the option. The alternatives are not good. Silver line. Speaker 6: (25:02)I know. Right. I mean, don't we all? So, um, yeah, so, no, I, I mean, I wanted to go and I did, I did spend some time in New York. Um, I went with a show, um, I did it, I ended up doing, um, Cuckoo's nest at Steppenwolf, and then we did it in London and then we did it in New York and then the world went to hell in a hand basket and I saw the world trade center fall down. I thought, well, I want to go back to Chicago. So anyway, blah, blah, blah, um, nine 11 Blomberg. Anyway, that happened back to me. Speaker 2: (25:35)I have a question. I have a question going back to the, so when you, when you decided, did you decide, um, were, were other schools in the running for you besides DePaul for your MFA? Speaker 6: (25:44)Well, so I had already gone to another program for a year. I went to SUNY Binghamton, um, in Binghamton New York, which is where rod Sterling's from, that gives you an indication. Um, and that program was actually rather astounding. It was run by this guy, gene lesser, God rest, his soul, who I can unequivocally say was a bit of a sociopath, but he was one of the people who started Julliard in the early days. So he was one of those Svengali kind of teachers that could get you to do work. You never thought you had access to, but you were completely dependent on him to do it, which is why he had these weird little acolytes following him around and stuff. So I spent a year kind of being brainwashed by him and then the program crumbled. So then I had to find somewhere, um, the program shut down and it was hell in a hand, basket was just total task. Um, so I left that program and then went through the process of desperately auditioning and, um, you know, when Tish and Julliard and everyone else to get that, but I will say this, this is an amazing story. So I went to New York for the IRDAs Speaker 7: (26:44)Or something to audition for DePaul. And, um, at the time I had just been recovering from an illness. All of us ladies are familiar with it, had a horrible UTI. And so I took sulfa and didn't know I was allergic to sulfa. Um, and if you're allergic to sulfa, it does something great. So I went into my audition. I, you not by face was swollen. You came out to here. Like I looked, I looked like a homeless person in the middle of a Chicago winter by that. I mean, my face was completely swollen and disbanded, dark purple when burned and insane. My lips were deformed. Um, I mean, I looked horrified and I remember standing like in this waiting pen room, like it was a dance studio and there are mirrors everywhere. And I was just kind of looking at myself going, are you me? Speaker 7: (27:33)And I was like, Oh, okay, here we go. And I went and did my pieces and was like, I remember Jim hostel help was there. And I think John Jenkins and all these people, and I finished my pieces and they're like, do you have any questions? And I just kind of stand there, look at them going seriously. We're not going to talk about that. I've ever been like, just in case any of you are wondering, I don't normally look like this. I'm like, I'm not a supermodel, but this is not what we're normally just to put that out there. Cause like, it was good. You were brave to do that. Oh my like, I mean, I was making children cry in the streets. I mean, I really, but it was just so funny that they didn't even acknowledge. I mean, I get it, but we weren't even politically correct then, but no one said a word and I'm like, we're going to pretend I don't look like a descendant of the elephant man. Okay. But anyway, they took me. I think they felt badly for me. Speaker 5: (28:20)No, no. They saw they saw your talent audition. Speaker 7: (28:26)I know, I think I know I had this piece. I have no idea of what it's from, but it was about green peppers, like about, do I not like green peppers? And I went to this diatribe. No. As a matter of fact, I hate it. Actually. I really hate it. Everyone else likes green peppers. They think it was highlighted in that it was this theory about grit, which is very close to me cause I tend to get furious about nonsense. Um, and I probably did something tragic, like from Troilus and Cressida. I think I did a Cassandra monologue control. I was impressed. I talk about overblown. Like I'm, I'm going to play a deeply connected sear. Um, but they felt, Speaker 5: (29:02)I bet you knocked it out of the park. So you weren't talking about, uh, your earlier experience in having a spin golly type figure. And I, I probably wouldn't go so far as to say the theater school head spin golly types, but we did have, and we talk about on this podcast a lot, you know, people with big personalities people w we, we got, um, labeled in a way by our section in a way. Uh, so I'm curious to know your thoughts about that, about the personalities among the faculty, how you related to it, then how you relate to it now, what Speaker 2: (29:42)Your thoughts are. Speaker 8: (29:42)Well, so it's interesting, again, like I've been really deliberating about this a lot, you know, cause I wanted to do a good podcast to help you get now I know there's a great at the end, I was in a very different position. You know, I'd already gone to undergrad for four years and I'd already done one year of, of theater training. So I came into it at a different place and it was interesting because, um, temperamentally, I was much more, I felt a greater kinship with, uh, the folks that were getting BFAs and my MFA class. I mean, I really just didn't, it's not that I didn't get along with them. I just didn't. I was in school with a lot. I'll never forget. I was auditioning. I wanted to go to, um, ATC elemental P whatever the Harvard school is and I'll forget it. Speaker 8: (30:21)They were audition. They were like, if you want to be a teacher, get the hell out of here. We don't want accuracy. We want to be teachers. We want actors who want to act. And I was like, yes. Um, and not in any way to be disparaging of the folks that were in my class, but I felt like a lot of people were like, this is my backup. I'm going to be a teacher. And I'm like, who's going to want you to teach if you don't actually do this. Right. So, um, there was a little, just a little bit of a disconnect. And I think, I thought I knew everything and I was more than likely a snapback. So I, um, I didn't have the same kind of, Oh my God, this is a whole new world for me. You know, I was 23 and worldly, you know, but I'd already had those aha moments. Speaker 8: (31:02)So, and I came out of a really, um, I don't want to say for me, but like a borderline abusive stage. I think, I mean, I think this teacher I had before was actually a predator. And I say this now, cause he's dead. Although I should say it out loud when he was alive, I think he was a predator. So, um, I came out of a very intense environment into something where I remember sitting with Jamal's to Hoff all the time and he'd be like, Sarah, I just feel like you want me to yell at you. And I was like, yes. And then I had a little PTSD. I was like, no, one's mean enough. No, one's hard enough. Um, and I was constantly asking for more in gym and it's funny. Cause like everyone was like Jim Austin, Hoff crusty guy. And I'm like, I want more crust. Speaker 8: (31:39)I um, and I think I was very much a victim of one of those people that convinced myself that it didn't hurt. And I wasn't an excruciating pain all the time. I wasn't doing enough. Um, and if people didn't tell me how much I sucked, then they thought I couldn't be better. And so I really had, I was stuck with that feeling for a very long time in DePaul, like, Oh, I guess this is as good as I'm gonna get. Cause no one seems to tell me what I need to fix. And again, no one can, no one can fix me other than me. Uh, but I think I a very much, um, I think it goes into the whole permission thing that I was really looking for someone to tell me what was wrong and tell me I was going to be okay and tell me I was gonna make it. And that I was one of the chosen ones so that I could go out and take chances, which I think is the biggest problem with theater school in general. But that's a customer question. Speaker 2: (32:26)It's interesting because we do have a lot of you're the first person that I've really is struck me as saying like I needed more crust, I wanted more crust. I needed that for whatever reason. And it's, there's no judgment on, but um, there Speaker 5: (32:40)Are those people and I think it's also the Julliard method. That kind of method of, you know, unless it hurts, you're not, you're not growing and you know, to be fair, there's something about that that works like when I'm in pain is when I make changes in my life. It's just that, uh, you seem a little, like you were a little more ready to make changes. I was just trying to figure out what's happening. Speaker 8: (33:00)Well, totally. I was in a different place. I mean, I had, I'd already left home. I lived, you know, in a university of Toronto, it's a totally different than the American system. Like you live on your own, you live in co-op housing. There's no doubt. I mean like I had already sort of lived a pseudo, I mean a wildly protected pseudo adult life for five years. So I wasn't in the same place of like, Holy crap, I get to smoke cigarettes in front of teachers. You know what I mean? Like I, uh, so I just, um, but again, like, I, I still very much, I mean, it's not a level of maturity that I'm, I'm super proud of because I still very much was desperately seeking for someone to say, Sarah, you can live the life you want to live. You can be who you want to be. And it's not about which role you get here. Cause it's, you know, that world is also as the three of us don't we, we were never fricking algae news. What the hell was I doing? Doing shows and theater school. Speaker 5: (33:52)Right, right. Yeah. So you, you are w when you talk about waiting for permission and, and being scared, um, that ties into something that boss and I talk about all the time, and we talked about it earlier today. Uh, those of us who, whose parent whose mothers were in the sixties generation of feminism, um, really experienced, horrible, horrible things. And so their impression that they taught to us and that became our impression is that it was all fixed and it was all better. And feminism worked and patriarchy was over, which is obviously less laughable, Speaker 8: (34:43)Just look at TV. Speaker 5: (34:44)Yeah, exactly. But we, I feel envious of young women growing up now, even at, even though they can still be in a patriarchal context, they can still be oppressed by somebody no longer. Is there just such a dearth of information about what, how it could be, or maybe even how it should be. Um, do you ever feel that envy wishing that you had been raised with, or maybe you were raised with a strong feminist bent? I don't know. Speaker 8: (35:19)Uh, well for sure, like I was raised in a tremendous matriarchy. I mean, everyone jokes, my, my late father, like my friends who, like, he just was a husk and a corner, which he wasn't, but like we just, I come from not surprisingly generations of really dominant women. Um, but I also, um, you know, my mother is the kind of woman she was getting her master's degree, worked a full-time job and raised two children and did everything all at the same time. So my mom didn't have time to about. I mean, so my parents were political and social idealists and they, they actually met in Chicago is this part of this Catholic youth, um, rebel organization. I mean, they were, as far as Catholics can be, but they were really about social justice and change. And so I grew up around all of that. Speaker 8: (36:04)Um, but I also think at a certain point, like what's funny is I, I noticed this particular last year at the beginning of the pandemic when things got cuckoo and, um, so many issues, so many social issues came to light. I realized how old and out of touch I was. Do you know what I mean? Like I had, I had lived this whole period thinking I am so enlightened. And then all of a sudden I was teaching these students and I was like, Laura. And I like literally vomiting on my own words and terrified of saying the wrong thing and not understanding, um, social codes anymore and thought, but I'm a good person. You know, I went through all that white guilt and fear and doubt. And so, um, yes, I, I, I, well, envious of these women, I'm, I'm envious for the time that they have. Speaker 8: (36:48)I'll say that I'm really envious of the time. And I try very much not to squander the time I have worrying about what I did with the time I wasted. Um, but I, uh, you get your lessons when you get them, I guess. Uh, but I think it's a really complicated place that people are in, but I'm very encouraged. And I was having this discussion recently with friends of mine, talking about the movies we grew up with. And again, like I thought me and my girlfriends, like nine years old going to see like nine to five or like we just thought we were a little budding feminists. And then I go back and I look at 16 candles and I'm like, I was obsessed with rape movies. You know what I mean? Like, um, coming, having those awakening moments of realizing I'm brainwashed too, um, or realizing that women cease to exist past 40. Speaker 8: (37:32)You know, when, when I was reading an interview with Reese, with this one recently where she was like, stop time up, Oh, this is a picture of me on set, playing Adam Sandler's mother. You know what I mean? Or like that new shell manque, that's out like Amanda, Seyfried's playing what's her butt's wife. And she's 78 years younger than him. And in real life, his wife was the same, you know, like just this horse shittery where like who's controlling the narrative of who women are is just especially as someone who's like, Oh wait, here I am, I'm 50. I'm ready to go. Now I'm like, well, I have to write it because you know what? These men are terrified to know that we exist. Speaker 2: (38:08)Right. That's absolutely true. And I, I just think, yeah, so that speaks of that thing of like, um, right. I don't know if you guys feel this, but it's like, I came of age thinking I was a feminist and that, that we, everything was possible that I was crushed right by the system. And now I'm coming of age again saying, and I am, I am, I wish I have this on this podcast all the time where I'm listening. I'm like, man, I wish I knew this when I was 18. And there's that thing where they say, you can't know what, you know, until you know it, but I hate that because I just, if I was armed with this, I listened to the stories of people that come on the podcast that are like, you know, I told so-and-so to F off that I was going to play this part or that, and I'm like, I wish I had had that, but you're right. Speaker 2: (38:50)You'd get, you'd get the lessons when you get them. But it sounds like you were able, there just seems to be a sense then about yourself, that when you were at the theater school, that you were able to step into your own, which is why you probably seemed so connected and were, was, was a good actor. And the rest of us were not terrible actors, but I can tell you, it wasn't that I was a terrible actor, is that I had no clue what was going on. You had a clue of what was going on, which is why your work probably seemed so connected because you knew Speaker 7: (39:18)I, maybe I just, I just had more of a chance to know who I was. And I think so much, I think so much of it. And again, like I think about Slack because I teach acting now and I teach at the university level a lot. And, um, I think so much of that environment is about a, tell me I can do this as there's a whole body of people that are gonna tell you just, just between you and me just to make it, am I going to make it like that feeling all the time of thinking someone can actually bestow your life upon you. Um, and then having someone to like, who are you? Who are, who am I do? Can you tell me who I am? And here I am going to school. And yes, I had, I had a pretty, I had a more, um, secure sense of self because I was older just by virtue of years. Speaker 7: (39:58)Um, and I w I was fortunate to be exposed to a lot of things in a very unique way, I think. Um, but still I went into theater school and I played old ladies, my entire career. I played old women. I played grandmothers and old women and the fat ferry. And then I got out of school and I played hookers for 20 years. Do you know what I mean? Like we, there's no sense of what, so theater school doesn't really help you find a truth. And that the hilarious irony is like, you get to be your senior year and you got to do the showcase, which is going to make or break your whole life. And they're like, how are you going to market yourself? And I'm like, are you kidding me? I have no idea of who I am, because I've been running around playing. Speaker 7: (40:43)I played women in theater school that I'm still too young to audition for. So it, it, it, it you up in terms of trying to figure out some way of being authentic and you know, how it is to, it's funny, I'm sure John, you saw it too. You know, our, our dear friend, Nick Whitcomb wrote something recently about like theater and what does theater mean? And I'm thinking, you know, gone are the days where we're all sitting around. I mean, hopefully not forever. We have to reimagine them, but like, I don't know how much me playing Cresseta in Troilus and Cressida is going to aluminate today's world. I don't know how much this can of things that we thought were really going to establish us as artists is going to move us forward anyway. And yeah, I don't know. Speaker 2: (41:29)I also feel like theater never really embraced me as a woman as a, Speaker 5: (41:34)As who I am. So I'm, I'm, I don't feel a loyalty to recreate the art form, which other people can, I just never found like my spot there. So when people are like, how are we going to reimagine theater? I'm like, because I, I never Speaker 8: (41:50)Theater that I liked in America, to be honest, I was spoiled. I was trained by a bunch of Europeans and undergrad and went, I mean, we went on school trips to Italy and Germany and Sasha, and that's the, still to this day, that theater, I, my favorite theater is Russians and Germans and stuff where it's like, I don't have to speak the language. Like to me, that's theater. I don't know a word you're saying. And I'm riveted. And that's, that's what I've never seen that really recreated here. Um, Speaker 5: (42:14)All right, well, gauntlet thrown America. You got to try to impress Sarah. I told boss this earlier, but, um, I just happened yesterday to be looking through the plays in my bookshelf. And, um, I was looking for, uh, to do something specific and I P I picked up a play that I haven't read in a long time called dead man's cell phone. And of course, I was delighted to see your name as having been one of the original, other, other woman, uh, characters. Can you tell us anything about your experience with that play? Speaker 8: (42:53)Yeah, that was great. That was super, super funny play. I mean, um, how do I talk about that? You know, it's so, so, so, so Pauli Noonan, um, who play gene and the play is sort of like Sarah rules muse. So it's very interesting to be in a play with the writers muse in there. And Polly's just one of these, she's just an other worldly being she's, she's a magnificent human being and creature, but like indescribable, I just use just this ephemeral sort of creature. Um, uh, and it was, you know, it's always interesting to work on new plays. It was, um, I find it really challenging. It was sort of one of those, and I'm in poly had done the show before. Cause I remember going like, you know, of course I'm trying to make my role really important and grounded. And sometimes, you know, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe, you know what I'm saying? Speaker 8: (43:40)So I think there were times where I was beating my head against a wall, trying to make my, to understand every, uh, every bit of minutia I could mind out of it. And, you know, I remember once Paul saying to me, yeah, you know, this part never worked in DC either like that. It's um, Oh, wow. That there were shortcomings, but it was, it was wonder, I mean, it was wonderful, you know, I, um, I never, you know, it's like, I think I went through a period. I was like, I'm going to keep working. And then you don't work for a long time. And you're like, I wish I appreciated those moments more. I mean, it was, it was, it was lovely. It was terrifying. I remember, I, of course I only really remember the moments I went up on my lines and didn't know what's happening and got Jeezy on a rake stage and was terrified. Um, please, anyone directing plays, don't put anyone on rage stage. It's just cruel. Um, especially anyone with anxiety vertigo. Forget it. Yeah. Um, Speaker 6: (44:36)You were on a rake stage at the theater school, in the one with the turf. What was that called? Speaker 8: (44:42)That was called systemly feelings, which for like six years, I still found AstroTurf in my underwear. Yeah. That Speaker 6: (44:52)You Speaker 8: (44:52)Were brilliant too. That was brilliantly. That was, Speaker 6: (44:56)That was the audition right. Where we had to be funny. Wasn't that the one where Speaker 8: (45:01)It was late and it was super funny. Okay. And, and I was thinking that Lee Kirk, this is my cousin Lee Kirk was in it. Sean Gunn was in it. JP Cabrera was in it Alex, but like, I mean, and, and, and, and, and, um, Bradley Walker and that, that play Kendra through. And that, that was, that play was F I was all, yeah, that was my favorite place for sure. That I did. Although, full of calamitous moments of, of utter tear and, and destruction. Speaker 6: (45:28)Did you get dizzy on that rake stage too? Speaker 8: (45:30)No, I got, I got sculled. I got to horrible things happen in this show. I have to. Okay. So the first one was, there's always a show at the end of like one scene, there's like a coin toss. And then that determines what the next scene is going to be. And we had to run off stage. It was a rainstorm. We had to run back on stage wet. So we got dunked with water off stage and ran back on. And I can't remember, Stan, I'm such a crumb. He was a lovely stage manager. We had long kind of Auburn hair and he was just adorable. Speaker 6: (46:00)Oh, yes. It'll come to me. Speaker 8: (46:07)Yeah. Reddish hair you're with me. Okay, Speaker 6: (46:12)Lovely. Speaker 8: (46:12)So I remember, um, he had told the, the, the kids, I say kids, because what other, th th th the kids working crew, um, make sure you put relief, um, warm water in, at the top of the act, put hot water in the bucket at the top of the app so that when we dunk them in water, they, um, aren't freezing. And, um, Oh no, whoever, uh, neglected to do this. So did it at the end of the act. And I ran off stage and literally had a giant bucket of scalding water poured on top of me. And I had to run immediately back on stage and finish a scene that was alarming. Speaker 6: (46:51)Oh, that's horrible. And how far along were you on? Speaker 8: (46:55)I was on stage then for another few minutes. And then we did the coin toss, but I just looked at Kendra and like, you're doing the next scene. I was like, this is not because I couldn't go. I was like hyperventilating. I'm like, I can't, I mean, it's like burn cream in my hair line. And then I had, like, I had like a scene or two to recover, and then I had to go back on, but that, because it was like the potential to do like eight different plays or whatever, the way that play was set up. Um, but that wasn't the most terrifying moment. I will, the most terrifying thing that happened that show. So there was a whole big picnic scene. We were all, I remember this all on that Hill. And Gus thing is about the extra guy. I think it was Bradley's an extra guy shows up. Speaker 8: (47:31)So we were one short we're, one short of everything. And all of the dialogue in that scene revolves around the one shortness, and God it. If I didn't open that picnic basket and it was empty, there was like a napkin and two plates. And I'll never forget this. I was thinking of Lee. Cause like I was really, I was really tight with those guys at the time and, and I was running the picnic. So all the dialogue was motivated by me, motivated by prompts about the things and about the lack of things. And I remember opening it up and looking at it being like, there's nothing in here. And this is that the reskin, like there's people out there. And I turned to Sean, Sean Gunn, he was playing my boyfriend Steph, and I'm like, Stafford, could you go to the car and see if there's a bank in the County? Speaker 8: (48:23)And I just remember looking over it and seeing Lee Kerr, cause he could tell him he just went and put his hands behind his head and lean back. Like I can't wait to see how Sarah gets out of this one. I'll never forget that. It was so funny. I mean, it was like the most panicked and we just had to basically make up the entire like, and then I remember seeing that same stage manager whip off his headset go poking around, trying to find, and then like, you know, three minutes later Sean comes walking out. I was like, Oh, is this what you're looking for? I'm like, Oh, was super, Speaker 5: (48:49)Thank you so much. Oh wow. Speaker 8: (48:53)Like I think of that moments where I'm like, Oh God, what if? And I'm like, I already dealt with a big one, if that's fine. And it was true. It was horrifying. Horrifying. Yeah. Speaker 5: (49:03)So, um, I, we have never talked in this podcast about this, but um, recently I was thinking about the actor's nightmare and what you experienced was, was a nightmare. But what we're typically referring to when we say the actor's nightmare is the dream you have that you're and there's variations on it, but like you're supposed to go on stage and you don't know any of your lines or you can't, for some reason you can't get all the way on stage. And I don't know why it took me so long because I would have the stream for the 25 years. I had never acted. Um, so it took me all this time to, to link the way that that is just tied to your own life and your feeling of like being an imposter or you're feeling that you're ill prepared. And I'm just wondering if you guys still have dreams like that. Speaker 5: (49:56)I have the same dream. I have the dream where, where I, I finally got to the point of the dream where I say, it in the dream. I'm just going to make the up. Because before I would try to cram cram, cram and lobby backstage and finding someone's script with the highlighted script and like I'm crying. And then finally about a month ago I had one where I was like, you know what, this. I'm going to make this up. And it was so my God I'm so inspired. Go back to the scary dream. Me too, Speaker 2: (50:29)Just, I said, it. I'm going to make it up. I can't go through this anymore. I can't go through this. Like I literally would. My dream was like, I took control because I had him all the time. Speaker 8: (50:38)I just had that. I'm not no word of a lie last week where I was like, can I just borrow? Like, and it was like the Shakespeare style where they just had their lie. And I was like, maybe that'll just, Oh, I have that dream. And I never have pants on, or I'm always missing either assertive. I find always like trying to take some kind of towel and yes, Speaker 5: (50:58)Boss that is very encouraging that you had that dream. And I am going to try to like take that in such that if I find myself in the middle of that dream, I might be able to give myself that same advice. But it, I wonder for you, I bet it is really linked to this idea that you're having to write for yourself and which yeah. Which Sarah mentioned, you know, you're, you're saying you, you, now that you are now that you're ready to embrace your greatness, um, and you're maybe not going to find a bunch of roles ready-made, you're going to have to make it for yourself. Are you already, Speaker 8: (51:36)Uh, I am eight pages in, I mean, so it's funny. I've been, I, um, like I said, I'm trying to use my downtime, my, this pen Demi time, um, effectively. And so part of what I'm trying to do is not break myself constantly. So, you know, I got my final draft, I got my ideas and I've had all sorts of interesting things pop up over the past few months. So have I done as much writing as I intended to know, but is it something that I'm thinking about and actively trying to not stop myself from doing every day? Yes. And I think that that's the biggest hurdle I have to get over is like the part of me that thinks, well, I've got to get it right from between here and my fingers. It's got to get right. Then instead of like, maybe I should just bark out some really bad and see what happens. Speaker 8: (52:18)Um, and not worry. Cause I tend to stop that. Well, what happens after that? it. I'm done. And shortbread and sourdough. So I, um, I'm trying to get over that hurdle, but I am quite excited and enthusiastic and, and I've had other interesting things. I've had great distractions pop up in the past little bit. So I have sort of like, all right, so I'm going to shelf that and work on. And I'm just really working on, um, not panicking. I'm just realizing, you know, in terms of the dream of like, um, not succumbing to panic and anxiety and fear of what's next and trying to be a bit more present in this weird timeless time. I'm trying to be just a little more mindful and slow. Speaker 2: (53:01)Well, you, you see, I gotta be honest. You seem, you seem pretty, you know, knowing, knowing you, you seem pretty much [inaudible]. I know I Speaker 8: (53:12)Thank you. I appreciate that. Cause I really have, um, and it's also been hard to do to realize like, wait, I it's, I think part of it leads into that. Like if it doesn't hurt, it's not work, um, trying to surrender to like Sarah, your life doesn't have to be excruciating all the time and you don't have to be miserable or suffering. You can just be, and that's a piece of the work. And so I'm really trying as I sit here watching icicles mouth outside of my house, I'm really trying to appreciate and sit with that time who knows what will happen. And again, like, Ooh, what's going to happen as soon as I have to, but I'm really trying to be okay. Speaker 2: (53:44)What did about Cuckoo's nest? Because people are going to ask, how did that come? How, how was that? I mean, that was, that was, that was like a big, huge deal for people that don't know it was Sarah was wasn't Cuckoo's nest. Speaker 8: (53:58)It was super easy, pretty fun. Um, although again, not without its challenges. I, um, I auditioned like every other woman between the ages of, you know, 20 and 32 for this little walk on part. Um, and uh, hilariously, it came down to me and this woman, Jennifer Inkstrom, who's a marvelous actress. Um, and we, at the time we're roommates, we work at the same restaurant. We had the same agent and Oh, my Gary Sinise and Terry Kenny could not choose which one of us to cast. So they cast both of us. So we were double cast in a role. And every other night, one of us went on is Sandy. And the other one played the electroshock tech. I. You not. Um, and that's how that run. It was bananas. It makes, I mean, and to this day, people are like, what the? Speaker 8: (54:52)It was really weird. And I don't really understand what transpired behind the scenes at the end of the day. I think it was a wildly unfair thing to do to Jennifer and I, because for years it really, really with our friendship, especially when I ended up going to Broadway and she did, and it was really unfair. Not that it's going to come back and bite me in the. It was a really unfair situation to put us in, um, horribly. So, um, especially when they're like, so Sarah, when are you leaving Broadway? When's Jen coming. And I'm like, this is up to me. I mean, it was really, really weird night anyway, but it was marvelous and wonderful. And I was very lucky to do a number of shows at Steppenwolf and, um, work with just astoundingly, uh, generous people and not realize it at the time. Speaker 8: (55:35)I just thought, I don't think I, you know, some youth is wasted on the young. I didn't realize how great it was. Um, but it was awesome. I mean, I, I looked out in the audience one night and Paul Newman was looking at me and I was like, that's Paul Newman. I mean, it was just, it was banana cakes. It was, it was, it was, it was wonderful. And it was a, a really fun show. And, um, I can't believe it was, you know, 20 years ago that it closed. Um, but it was a, it was a good time. It was a good time. Yeah. Speaker 2: (56:02)I got, I got, who played, who played first ratchet. Speaker 8: (56:05)Amy Morton. Oh, nice. Amy Morton. Um, yeah, we had a, Speaker 2: (56:12)Okay. I just love that. I love the stories about people. I know. Speaker 8: (56:16)Oh, it was super fun. I got paid to make out with Gary. Like it was like, Speaker 2: (56:22)You know, yeah. And you, you know, Speaker 5: (56:24)We, we, when the, by the time this is all over, you may be part of a bygone era of Broadway. I mean, I was just having this discussion with a bunch of theater people last night. Is it going to come back? Is it going to be, I mean, the whole model, the whole financial model of it, it was so unsustainable, um, with packed houses and, you know, charging $400 a ticket. I can't imagine trying to make this work with any type of social distancing protocols. Speaker 8: (56:53)Yeah. And who the hell are they going to put in those seats to fill? I mean, like, who's going to be on Broadway. Do you know what I mean? Like gone are the actors not to be a Dick, but you know, Speaker 5: (57:05)No, no, it's totally true. I, they interesting. So speaking of plays, um, probably my most memorable theater school watching experience was raised in captivity. Oh my God. And, and, uh, it made me, it made me a Nicky silver fan. Yes. I mean, that play is so funny. And I have the experience of watching it, that I was laughing so hard and so loud and people around me were laughing too, but I felt like, no, no, you don't. This is the most brilliant thing I've ever heard. John Gunn trying to say, I'm working with the baby, I'm teaching the baby. It's the baby's about to walk. Oh, such a great play. It was Nick directed that, right? Yeah. Do you remember that experience? I wasn't in it myself, Speaker 8: (58:09)Laughing in the audience. I wasn't in it. Speaker 5: (58:12)I've been telling myself you were in my favorite play at the theater school. Maybe I'm combining two plays. Did you do another Nikki that you were in you? Speaker 8: (58:22)I mean, I could be hallucinating. No, I cause Susan Bennett, PJ powers, um, was Juliette and that like I wait, was there someone that wasn't that on it? Speaker 5: (58:33)Wait in a Tutu. Speaker 8: (58:35)It's not about being passed around like a, like a, like a candy dish of nuts or something like there's I remember that, that awesome. Speaker 5: (58:42)Maybe we're thinking of a different name of the prompt. Maybe they did to Batman and skirts. Did you do any Nicky silver plays at the theater school? No, Speaker 8: (58:50)That's with Nicky silver too, because I love language play. Like I just, I, um, Speaker 5: (58:55)No, this is the problem Speaker 8: (58:59)That I wasn't in that show. Cause I was like, Oh, better to do Nicky silver then. Yeah. I mean, I was like, I grumbled, I think I was doing some Irish play at the time about, I don't know if I did some Declan. Speaker 5: (59:10)It's so funny. I believe I've used this to disparate things into one flatter. Speaker 8: (59:17)I thought it was me. Cause that play was awesome. And I, I can see Speaker 7: (59:22)Myself in that classroom watching it and just being gobsmacked. It was like, you know, Speaker 6: (59:27)Two little flats and like a light bulb on the floor. Maybe we were sitting next to each other. And I remember, okay. So I'll, I'll Speaker 2: (59:36)Share with everybody that, um, we are doing a part two with Sarah Shera par because, because my audio unfortunately lost. Yeah. So, so I went back and I just listened to the part where you can only hear you and I talking to, to remind us what we were talking about, but I just being transparent about it. The audience, I mean the audio quality will never sound the same. So if you're listening to this, well, yes, it was recorded in two separate days, but I'm going to do my best to bring us back to the point in the conversation that we were at when we were so rudely interrupted by squad cast. So, um, w we were, we were talking about the shows you did, and you were talking about a show that you did with Joe slowish. Um, and then, uh, a story that I loved talking about the show you did, where you had to be CA you were wearing a beautiful gown, I think. And you had to be carrying Helen of Troy, Helen of Troy. Yeah. Tell us that story. Speaker 7: (01:00:37)I just remember being devastated cause David decimal shin had to carry me and I was like, Oh my God, he's going to know how fast, I mean, you know, Speaker 6: (01:00:47)Like I, Speaker 7: (01:00:48)I mean, I had such a crush on him. Um, hi David, uh, as did everyone as did everyone now. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 6: (01:00:55)Me and it precluded you. Speaker 2: (01:00:58)What we were talking about is how it precluded you and things like that, or can so easily preclude us from focusing on the thing that would actually make the memory good. And the experience enjoyable. Like I'm on stage at a beautiful venerated Chicago theater, and I am getting to play this amazing part and I'm getting to do something that I love instead. We're, we're focused on the thing that you worry about what you ate last night. Speaker 7: (01:01:26)It's not really being in the moment. That's not being in the essential moment there that's not the Colonel one wants to clean to, for sure. Speaker 2: (01:01:34)Definitely not. Definitely. If you were in that position today, how do you think you'd be? Speaker 6: (01:01:40)I think regrettably, Speaker 7: (01:01:44)Well, yeah, I'm a bit in that position every day. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm very, I, it's funny. I, um, uh, recently in this universe, uh, Oh, I apologize. There's some kind of siren happening. Um, recently in this universe of, um, zoom auditions, uh, has been a really eye-opening and a horrifying experience, but illuminating about certain things. And that is that, Oh, I am now back at a place where I'm have to relearn how to not focus on myself in an audition. Right. So because, um, all of a sudden you can see yourself in the corner can see that little piece and try not to be. So I, I thought mistakenly, um, as of late, I was in this groovy Headspace and I was ready to go and it's all about the work. And then the second I could, I was like, Oh God it. Speaker 7: (01:02:31)There you are. And right in front of you, are you and all of your insecurities. Um, and I was, uh, both reassured and disappointed by the fact that I still have the same, the same struggle as a performer to get out of my own way and to get out of my head and stop looking at myself in the moment. And I just had the same experience I had to watch myself. I was on, I saw myself on TV last week and everyone's gathered around the TV and it's like, Ooh, you're on that show. And how exciting. And all I saw were chins. All I saw were, and I remember the day I'm thinking, he looked great. You feel great. You should be confident now, focus on your work. And then I get to watch my work and all I'm all I'm seeing are, wow, that's a really bad sweater. And boy, you know, so it's hard. It's hard to not. Um, I think I focus on it. I try to actively focus on it less. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of like trying to, it's like trying to play a negative intention. I will not, not do. Speaker 2: (01:03:25)Right. Right. Right. Well, the, probably the biggest difference though, is that, you know, that you're doing that now and you know, that it robs you of something that's joyful and you're trying, and you, you know, I think having the desire to get to the place where you can like, just live your life and appreciation for it instead of monitoring your life or how other people are appreciating you. Yeah. Speaker 7: (01:03:45)Yes. And to appreciate the, I mean, so in a way back to that show, my, my goal doing when I shot that show was like, Sarah, you're going to enjoy this experience. You're not going to go home after three days of shooting going. I don't know what happened because I wasn't there. So do I feel like I was able to do that at least 60% of the time? Yes. Which is a big win, right? Like I was like, I was able to have fun being on set and working and focusing on the work rather than worrying about, are they going to fire me? Am I going to get kicked off? And I didn't lose 40 pounds last week. So that was good. That was good to be able to, what was the show? The, uh, the Chicago fire. Um, Speaker 2: (01:04:26)Okay. It's about the it's about the department. Speaker 7: (01:04:29)Is it, is the, it is the fire show of America. Yes, it was. Yes. It was really fun. It was actually super good to, and it was super rewarding because I got to work with a student who I, it was his first job on camera. We had our scene together, a female director that I had worked with before, and it was written by a woman and a woman

Cash Flow Basics With Sarah Stein G'day everyone out there, today we're going to be talking about cash flow basics and why cash flow is important in your business. Cash flow should be straightforward enough, but people seem to keep doing it wrong. So we've got Sarah back again from Miss Efficiency Bookkeeping to see what we can get through when it comes to cash flow. So Sarah, what is the number one rule when it comes to cash flow? Where is your money going? Sarah: I think the number one rule is just to keep an eye on it. Just because you're profitable on your P&L doesn't necessarily mean that your business is going to be successful. You could have lots of profit on paper, but if you have no money in the bank, how are you going to make payroll? Or how are you going to make those loan repayments? I think the number one thing is to know where your money is going and when and where it's coming from.  Is that more around the forecasting things? What if you've got a brand new business that you haven't done any groundwork with? If that's the case, when is the right time to start planning and seeing where your money is coming from, where it's going, and getting your ducks lined up from day one? Sarah: From day one. Before you've got any money coming in, because how do you know how much money you need? How do you know what your expenses can be? How much money do you want out of the business? So I didn't do that. I didn't do that from day one. Ideally, if somebody came to me and said, I'm going to start my new business, this is what it's going to be, what should I do? This is what I would say to them. Put a cash flow in place. Now, it's hard, don't get me wrong. I'm a bookkeeper, and it's still hard. So think about a cash budget, for example. Now I like to reverse engineer things. So most people will start at their income. Then they'll put their costs in the net, their expenses, and then if they're lucky, they may or may not be some profit at the end, which the business owner may or may not get, because that profit may or may not actually be cash in the bank. So instead of doing that, let's reverse engineer. Why are you in business, and what you want to get out of it? The first thing you could do is make a clarity plan. This is for you personally. It's not thinking about the business yet. It's thinking about what do I, Sarah, want to get out of the business? For myself and for my family. We haven't even got to the vehicle; we're just starting at the destination. That's where we want to be. Example of a clarity plan So my clarity plan, for example, is really simple. I have no debt and have two investment properties. So that if either of my children wanted to be, they could be set up with their own houses. That's it. I don't need a million dollars in the bank. I don't need flash cars. I just want to have no debt and two properties. That's what I want to work towards.  Think about your business plan Then you need to go to the next layer below that, which is your business plan. So your business is going to achieve your clarity plan. What do you need to do in your business in order to achieve your clarity plan? So that's going to talk about what are the projects that you've got to do. Put your business plan in place now with the end goal in achieving the clarity plan. Think about what you want from being in business The clarity plan can change over time. When I started the business went gangbusters, but what I really wanted was to help businesses. So I pivoted to helping with automating businesses rather than automating Education Queensland. Nothing wrong with Education Queensland, but I would rather help businesses between five to 100 employees then help businesses with 10,000 employees. For myself, a lot of what I want isn't to do with finances as much as it's to do with what I want to be remembered for and what I am leaving behind for my children. My business changed from being a business of passion to being a business of flexibility. Now it's a bit more well rounded and balanced. So I wanted to ask you, so what are the different types of profit and should you just be looking at your business as a vehicle in your investment property or separate to that? Sarah: That's probably a question that's a little bit beyond my scope, and more in line with an accountant or a financial planner, but I think that you need to look at everything as a whole. You need to look at your asset protection, where those properties are sitting, how you set up for tax, but that's a whole different conversation in itself. Cash flow is how you achieve your business plan Coming back to the business plan, the step before that is how are you going to achieve your business plan? That's your cash flow projection. If we start at the bottom, you've got your cash flow, which is working towards your business plan, which is then working towards the clarity plan. They're all in alignment with each other. We run our cash flow on a weekly basis, so I look at my numbers every day. But again, I'm a bookkeeper. I don't pull a report out of Zero, because that would be too easy. What I do is I take all of my numbers out of Zero, and I manually enter them into an Excel spreadsheet. I think putting it into an Excel spreadsheet manually submits it into your brain. That's the most important thing in my business because I know exactly what's in the bank. I know what's coming in, and I know what's going out Business owners don't always have to miss out on the piece of the pie Sometimes shit happens when you are trying to stay in control of your business. If you have some unexpected things happen, maybe a key person within your business leaves or a pandemic, do you prioritise your expenses and income streams if you know that your expenses each month? If they become slightly out of balance, is it the business owner that takes less of the pie at the end of the day, do you need to be more ruthless there, or how do you prioritise your expenses?  Sarah: I don't entirely agree with the business owner taking less. I, to a degree, work with the profit-first philosophy. But something like COVID, our generation of business owners, I think that has fundamentally changed the way we will go into the future with how we think about and do business. Many businesses have had to change the way they deliver their product or their service. I think, in some aspects, COVID has actually been great for business, because it's meant that business owners have gotten out of their comfort zone, and looked at their business differently, as well as looking at their money differently. Make your payment terms work for you It's definitely about being aware and putting all of those things that you would normally put in place for good healthy cash flows. Making sure people are paying you on time, making sure you're giving people lots of ways to pay, getting good payment terms, things like that. Then in times of COVID, if you offer a service or a product, get paid upfront. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm of the opinion that if people are not happy to pay upfront, or even make a deposit, and how do you know that they're going to pay you at the end of the job? We made a decision when it comes to direct debit requests; if someone is not interested in signing straight away, we're not interested in having them as a client. Every time, not once or twice, but every time that clients have said no to direct deposits, instead of abiding by the net 10-day term, it gets to net 90, and there are 1000s of dollars owing. I ran a quick compounding interest calculation and worked out that I could have had a free carton of beer every month if everyone paid their invoices on time. Sarah: If everybody stuck to that exact same model, it would work for everybody. The other thing with COVID is that I've found many of my clients actually are in a much stronger cash flow position now than they were before COVID. I think it comes back to people are so more in tune and aware and conscious of the money.  Regularly check up on your contracts Last year I had a look into what can we do to change around the way the business is working. I changed a few bits and pieces and shaved $15,000 worth of expenses a month out of the business. In the first quarter of COVID, we had the worst on record for 10 years. If that had happened before we cut some costs, we would have been $45,000 worse off. It was followed by the best quarter that we've ever had in history, so I can't complain about COVID. We saved for that rainy day and had six months of expenses in the bank. If you can run the business with no income at all for six months, you should be able to combat nearly everything. The book "Profit First" may be a gamechanger for you Sarah: I heard about this book called "Profit First" a lot, and I didn't really know too much about it. My only perception was you had to have all of these extra bank accounts, which seemed ridiculous, but that's from my lack of knowledge. Something came up in a forum in January last year, and I told myself to get that book.  So I picked it up, I read it, and absolutely loved that book. I followed the guidelines of the book quite closely, and I set up the other bank accounts, but then I thought, you know, this doesn't really work for me. So I've changed it to make it work for me. In Profit First, they talk about getting to a certain percentage that you want to run your operating expenses through. My 12-month prediction was to be at where those percentages were, I was there within three months. That was purely from being more conscious. I cut some expenses, but I also increased some expenses because I realised I could actually be more efficient if I just changed a few things. So it got me thinking about what I actually need to run my business, I have never in my business had spare money. Now I do, and it just gives me so much peace of mind. It has been honestly, quite effortless. If you put in the work, you will be rewarded Everyone out there that's thinking, I can't do this, just take a deep breath. Really feel the stress leaving when you think about that money just sitting there and how much better it is.  Sarah: Why put your energy into worrying that you can make payroll on Monday, when you know that you can meet it and put that extra energy and passion into growing your team or growing your business or developing new products or service offerings? If anybody has not heard of Profit First, make it work for you. I would say absolutely, 100% do it. This is not an ad for Profit First, but it absolutely works for me. It's really easy, and not something that's going to take you hours each week to get done.  Ask yourself these questions Why did you get into business to start off with? What was your clarity plan? Are you achieving that clarity plan? Are you stepping in the right direction? It's important to make sure that you are continually revisiting your clarity plan. Profit First is a tool in the toolbox, and if you're not going to use the tool, you might not be necessarily building the right thing that you want in the direction that you want. Sarah's favourite books  So around now we normally asked what your favourite book is, but it sounds like we might have already answered that question. Sarah: My ultimate all-time favourite book is The E Myth. By Michael Gerber! That was the first business book that I read back in 2007. It's amazing the way he describes how to make sure that you've got technicians and the different hats that you're wearing in business. Sarah: It's absolutely been the foundation of how I built my business. After that book then, yes, I think Profit First would be very high up there. The book that I'm reading at the moment is called SYSTEMology, which talks about putting systems into your business and being able to then not be the person that's relied upon completely to run your business. That's really the ultimate goal, right? It should be! I did a presentation at a school a while ago around what my thoughts are as a business owner to a bunch of year 11 year 12 students. There were people from all walks of life, and I said you can be the bricklayer. But how long can your body let you be the bricklayer before you then have to start working at Bunnings. Nothing wrong with working at Bunnings, but if you want to be the bricklayer and not work at Bunnings later, that shouldn't be your plan unless that is within your plan. Being a business owner means you can jump in and off the tools, and it also means that your income should be limitless. You can have people that are doing the work that you don't like doing. I tell people being a business owner is the best profession, the best thing that you can do.  Sarah: I have a very funny story to tell you. We were driving to school, and we had this very deep conversation about what are you going to do when you grow up? I'm a business owner and my husband as an employee, so one of my kids was trying to grasp what the differences actually meant. So Jaden was eight at the time, and I told him you could be an employee and work for a business which is what dad does. Or you can be a business owner, and your clients and your customers are the ones that pay you. So I said, what will you do Jaden? Will you get money from the government? Will you be an employee? Or will you be a business owner? He looked at me very seriously, and he said, I think I'm just going to get myself a wife.  Thinking outside the box, that's great! Find your freedom Sarah: Running a business isn't for everybody; you've got to still have that passion. But you can make it anything that you want it to be. You're not stuck in the box of working for a particular industry or a boss. All the options can become as limitless as your passion and your imagination. That sounds really corny and cheesy, but it's really true. I completely agree. For some people, having the flexibility to be able to do that in your own business is perfect. If anyone out there is wanting to start a business and they haven't made the decision yet, if you can't save money while you're in your current job I'm going to say you are going to have a lot of trouble doing that when you have to start from zero and work for yourself. You have to be the person wearing lots of hats, so if you're not able to put some of that away and use that as a safety net, you may get in a lot of trouble. You have to have that drive and that passion to succeed no matter what. My wife Sarah was told by someone that she was never going to have her own business. It's not going to work. There's no money in doing what you want to do. She met me, and I said, do whatever you want to do, you can make money selling cupcakes, how is that different from doing hair and makeup? That was two years and two months ago. She now has seven people working with her. So don't listen to other people. Listen to your heart, let it drive your success and make sure that you're passionate enough to go through and do that.  Sarah: I don't think you should go into business purely to make buckets of money. Because that will always be a slog, you'll always be chasing more money. Whereas if you go into business chasing your passion and you are driven, the money will always just come. As the saying goes, if you enjoy what you're doing, you'll never work a day in your life. At business expos, you can see the people that are business owners and the people that are employed to sit there, because they're just on their phones. I said this to Sarah on our honeymoon, what is the difference between a holiday and working if you enjoy working? The final word I really enjoyed talking to you again today, is there anything else to touch on before we head off? Sarah: No, I think that pretty much covers it. Just be mindful of where your money is at, and cash is definitely king. I'm just going to add to that and say remember to check what you're paying for. It surprised me how quickly mobile phone plans change. I saw one recently that was $99 a year for unlimited calls on one of the major networks and I thought only a year ago, that would have been $30 or $40 a month. So keep your finger on the pulse with your expenses.  Sarah: With savings, some people think I can't save all of my money because it's devoted to my business or if I'm an employee, it's devoted to paying off the house and groceries. If you just put away 1% of what you earn during the week, you're not even going to notice. But have a look to see how much is in that bank account at the end of six months and then at the end of 12 months. It has been completely effortless. So then if you just very slowly, systematically increase that 1% you will have money there. Do whatever you want to do with it, but it's not coming out of your operating expenses money. It adds up. Look to change your mortgage too. I changed our mortgages on our investment properties and saved $12,000 a year. Now I have $1,000 a month I can put towards something else, and I was just blown away by that. Remember: Keep your finger on the pulse Cash is king Shape your clarity plan into your business plan If you do these things, you're going to be on the road to success.    

Would you like to learn more about faith? You've come to the right person. No, not me, Abraham. This is a daily devotional podcast supporting a teaching series for the Watford church of Christ and the Thames Valley churches of Christ called "Adventures in faith with Abraham". It is also part of my quiet time coaching series. What is it about Abraham which is so admirable? Many things. But perhaps above all else his adventurous faith, “By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8 NIV11) Join me as we step out on a faith adventure with Abraham. Episode 32 Today we continue in chapter 18 ““Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said. Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?' Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”” (Genesis 18:9–15 NIV11) What are we seeing here? Divine tolerance. When Abraham received the promise he fell facedown. When Sarah received the promise she laughed! Should we read anything into that? I'm not sure, but here are some thoughts from the Word Biblical Commentary: "These remarks of Sarah's show us the basis of her doubts. She laughed not out of cocky arrogance but because a life of long disappointment had taught her not to clutch at straws. Hopelessness, not pride, underlay her unbelief. Her self-restraint in not openly expressing her doubts and the sadness behind them go far to explain the gentleness of the divine rebuke." The correction by the messenger is less than it could have been. It is not a rebuke. Perhaps we are seeing an indication of God's grace. Also, perhaps an emphasis on the name of Isaac. Sarah is already speaking his name, meaning, as it does, “he laughs”. Devotional thought for today For the first time it is explicitly stated that Sarah is the one through whom the promised son will come. The promise is laughable. Why? Sarah is post-menopause. She is astonished at the promise - the LORD is astonished at her lack of faith. How human Sarah is, and how un-Godlike is our thinking when faced with the ‘impossible'. We might think of the situation in Matthew's Gospel: “When Jesus entered the synagogue leader's house and saw the noisy crowd and people playing pipes, he said, “Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep.” But they laughed at him. After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.” (Matthew 9:23–25 NIV11) Jesus was laughed at. Imagine that! The one who created laughter is on the receiving end of mocking laughter. Yet he has the last laugh. The impossible is made possible. The dead one is alive. We live this truth. Jesus died to defeat death. How odd. Death is a laughing matter! Prayer point for today Ask God to strengthen your ability to trust in his ability to do what is impossible. If you have any questions or feedback please contact me: malcolm@malcolmcox.org. The apostle Paul said of Abraham, “He is the father of us all.” (Romans 4:16 NIV11) Let's allow him to be the father of Faith to you and me in January and February 2021. Many thanks for listening today. See you tomorrow as we continue our adventure of faith with Abraham. Take care and God bless, Malcolm

Would you like to learn more about faith? You've come to the right person. No, not me, Abraham. This is a daily devotional podcast supporting a teaching series for the Watford church of Christ and the Thames Valley churches of Christ called "Adventures in faith with Abraham". It is also part of my quiet time coaching series. What is it about Abraham which is so admirable? Many things. But perhaps above all else his adventurous faith, “By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8 NIV11) Join me as we step out on a faith adventure with Abraham. Episode 32 Today we continue in chapter 18 ““Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said. Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”” (Genesis 18:9–15 NIV11) What are we seeing here? Divine tolerance. When Abraham received the promise he fell facedown. When Sarah received the promise she laughed! Should we read anything into that? I'm not sure, but here are some thoughts from the Word Biblical Commentary: "These remarks of Sarah’s show us the basis of her doubts. She laughed not out of cocky arrogance but because a life of long disappointment had taught her not to clutch at straws. Hopelessness, not pride, underlay her unbelief. Her self-restraint in not openly expressing her doubts and the sadness behind them go far to explain the gentleness of the divine rebuke." The correction by the messenger is less than it could have been. It is not a rebuke. Perhaps we are seeing an indication of God’s grace. Also, perhaps an emphasis on the name of Isaac. Sarah is already speaking his name, meaning, as it does, “he laughs”. Devotional thought for today For the first time it is explicitly stated that Sarah is the one through whom the promised son will come. The promise is laughable. Why? Sarah is post-menopause. She is astonished at the promise - the LORD is astonished at her lack of faith. How human Sarah is, and how un-Godlike is our thinking when faced with the ‘impossible’. We might think of the situation in Matthew’s Gospel: “When Jesus entered the synagogue leader’s house and saw the noisy crowd and people playing pipes, he said, “Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep.” But they laughed at him. After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.” (Matthew 9:23–25 NIV11) Jesus was laughed at. Imagine that! The one who created laughter is on the receiving end of mocking laughter. Yet he has the last laugh. The impossible is made possible. The dead one is alive. We live this truth. Jesus died to defeat death. How odd. Death is a laughing matter! Prayer point for today Ask God to strengthen your ability to trust in his ability to do what is impossible. If you have any questions or feedback please contact me: malcolm@malcolmcox.org. The apostle Paul said of Abraham, “He is the father of us all.” (Romans 4:16 NIV11) Let's allow him to be the father of Faith to you and me in January and February 2021. Many thanks for listening today. See you tomorrow as we continue our adventure of faith with Abraham. Take care and God bless, Malcolm

Would you like to learn more about faith? You've come to the right person. No, not me, Abraham. This is a daily devotional podcast supporting a teaching series for the Watford church of Christ and the Thames Valley churches of Christ called "Adventures in faith with Abraham". It is also part of my quiet time coaching series. What is it about Abraham which is so admirable? Many things. But perhaps above all else his adventurous faith, “By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8 NIV11) Join me as we step out on a faith adventure with Abraham. Episode 32 Today we continue in chapter 18 ““Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said. Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”” (Genesis 18:9–15 NIV11) What are we seeing here? Divine tolerance. When Abraham received the promise he fell facedown. When Sarah received the promise she laughed! Should we read anything into that? I'm not sure, but here are some thoughts from the Word Biblical Commentary: "These remarks of Sarah’s show us the basis of her doubts. She laughed not out of cocky arrogance but because a life of long disappointment had taught her not to clutch at straws. Hopelessness, not pride, underlay her unbelief. Her self-restraint in not openly expressing her doubts and the sadness behind them go far to explain the gentleness of the divine rebuke." The correction by the messenger is less than it could have been. It is not a rebuke. Perhaps we are seeing an indication of God’s grace. Also, perhaps an emphasis on the name of Isaac. Sarah is already speaking his name, meaning, as it does, “he laughs”. Devotional thought for today For the first time it is explicitly stated that Sarah is the one through whom the promised son will come. The promise is laughable. Why? Sarah is post-menopause. She is astonished at the promise - the LORD is astonished at her lack of faith. How human Sarah is, and how un-Godlike is our thinking when faced with the ‘impossible’. We might think of the situation in Matthew’s Gospel: “When Jesus entered the synagogue leader’s house and saw the noisy crowd and people playing pipes, he said, “Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep.” But they laughed at him. After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.” (Matthew 9:23–25 NIV11) Jesus was laughed at. Imagine that! The one who created laughter is on the receiving end of mocking laughter. Yet he has the last laugh. The impossible is made possible. The dead one is alive. We live this truth. Jesus died to defeat death. How odd. Death is a laughing matter! Prayer point for today Ask God to strengthen your ability to trust in his ability to do what is impossible. If you have any questions or feedback please contact me: malcolm@malcolmcox.org. The apostle Paul said of Abraham, “He is the father of us all.” (Romans 4:16 NIV11) Let's allow him to be the father of Faith to you and me in January and February 2021. Many thanks for listening today. See you tomorrow as we continue our adventure of faith with Abraham. Take care and God bless, Malcolm

Psalms and Wisdom: Psalm 17 Psalm 17 (Listen) In the Shadow of Your Wings A Prayer of David. 17   Hear a just cause, O LORD; attend to my cry!    Give ear to my prayer from lips free of deceit!2   From your presence let my vindication come!    Let your eyes behold the right! 3   You have tried my heart, you have visited me by night,    you have tested me, and you will find nothing;    I have purposed that my mouth will not transgress.4   With regard to the works of man, by the word of your lips    I have avoided the ways of the violent.5   My steps have held fast to your paths;    my feet have not slipped. 6   I call upon you, for you will answer me, O God;    incline your ear to me; hear my words.7   Wondrously show1 your steadfast love,    O Savior of those who seek refuge    from their adversaries at your right hand. 8   Keep me as the apple of your eye;    hide me in the shadow of your wings,9   from the wicked who do me violence,    my deadly enemies who surround me. 10   They close their hearts to pity;    with their mouths they speak arrogantly.11   They have now surrounded our steps;    they set their eyes to cast us to the ground.12   He is like a lion eager to tear,    as a young lion lurking in ambush. 13   Arise, O LORD! Confront him, subdue him!    Deliver my soul from the wicked by your sword,14   from men by your hand, O LORD,    from men of the world whose portion is in this life.2  You fill their womb with treasure;3    they are satisfied with children,    and they leave their abundance to their infants. 15   As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness;    when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness. Footnotes [1] 17:7 Or Distinguish me by [2] 17:14 Or from men whose portion in life is of the world [3] 17:14 Or As for your treasured ones, you fill their womb (ESV) Pentateuch and History: Genesis 18:1–15 Genesis 18:1–15 (Listen) 18 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks1 of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord,2 if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs3 of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard4 for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it,5 saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” Footnotes [1] 18:1 Or terebinths [2] 18:3 Or My lord [3] 18:6 A seah was about 7 quarts or 7.3 liters [4] 18:14 Or wonderful [5] 18:15 Or acted falsely (ESV) Chronicles and Prophets: 1 Chronicles 18–20 1 Chronicles 18–20 (Listen) David Defeats His Enemies 18 After this David defeated the Philistines and subdued them, and he took Gath and its villages out of the hand of the Philistines. 2 And he defeated Moab, and the Moabites became servants to David and brought tribute. 3 David also defeated Hadadezer king of Zobah-Hamath, as he went to set up his monument1 at the river Euphrates. 4 And David took from him 1,000 chariots, 7,000 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers. And David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but left enough for 100 chariots. 5 And when the Syrians of Damascus came to help Hadadezer king of Zobah, David struck down 22,000 men of the Syrians. 6 Then David put garrisons2 in Syria of Damascus, and the Syrians became servants to David and brought tribute. And the LORD gave victory to David3 wherever he went. 7 And David took the shields of gold that were carried by the servants of Hadadezer and brought them to Jerusalem. 8 And from Tibhath and from Cun, cities of Hadadezer, David took a large amount of bronze. With it Solomon made the bronze sea and the pillars and the vessels of bronze. 9 When Tou king of Hamath heard that David had defeated the whole army of Hadadezer, king of Zobah, 10 he sent his son Hadoram to King David, to ask about his health and to bless him because he had fought against Hadadezer and defeated him; for Hadadezer had often been at war with Tou. And he sent all sorts of articles of gold, of silver, and of bronze. 11 These also King David dedicated to the LORD, together with the silver and gold that he had carried off from all the nations, from Edom, Moab, the Ammonites, the Philistines, and Amalek. 12 And Abishai, the son of Zeruiah, killed 18,000 Edomites in the Valley of Salt. 13 Then he put garrisons in Edom, and all the Edomites became David’s servants. And the LORD gave victory to David wherever he went. David’s Administration 14 So David reigned over all Israel, and he administered justice and equity to all his people. 15 And Joab the son of Zeruiah was over the army; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud was recorder; 16 and Zadok the son of Ahitub and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar were priests; and Shavsha was secretary; 17 and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the Cherethites and the Pelethites; and David’s sons were the chief officials in the service of the king. The Ammonites Disgrace David’s Men 19 Now after this Nahash the king of the Ammonites died, and his son reigned in his place. 2 And David said, “I will deal kindly with Hanun the son of Nahash, for his father dealt kindly with me.” So David sent messengers to console him concerning his father. And David’s servants came to the land of the Ammonites to Hanun to console him. 3 But the princes of the Ammonites said to Hanun, “Do you think, because David has sent comforters to you, that he is honoring your father? Have not his servants come to you to search and to overthrow and to spy out the land?” 4 So Hanun took David’s servants and shaved them and cut off their garments in the middle, at their hips, and sent them away; 5 and they departed. When David was told concerning the men, he sent messengers to meet them, for the men were greatly ashamed. And the king said, “Remain at Jericho until your beards have grown and then return.” 6 When the Ammonites saw that they had become a stench to David, Hanun and the Ammonites sent 1,000 talents4 of silver to hire chariots and horsemen from Mesopotamia, from Aram-maacah, and from Zobah. 7 They hired 32,000 chariots and the king of Maacah with his army, who came and encamped before Medeba. And the Ammonites were mustered from their cities and came to battle. 8 When David heard of it, he sent Joab and all the army of the mighty men. 9 And the Ammonites came out and drew up in battle array at the entrance of the city, and the kings who had come were by themselves in the open country. Ammonites and Syrians Defeated 10 When Joab saw that the battle was set against him both in front and in the rear, he chose some of the best men of Israel and arrayed them against the Syrians. 11 The rest of his men he put in the charge of Abishai his brother, and they were arrayed against the Ammonites. 12 And he said, “If the Syrians are too strong for me, then you shall help me, but if the Ammonites are too strong for you, then I will help you. 13 Be strong, and let us use our strength for our people and for the cities of our God, and may the LORD do what seems good to him.” 14 So Joab and the people who were with him drew near before the Syrians for battle, and they fled before him. 15 And when the Ammonites saw that the Syrians fled, they likewise fled before Abishai, Joab’s brother, and entered the city. Then Joab came to Jerusalem. 16 But when the Syrians saw that they had been defeated by Israel, they sent messengers and brought out the Syrians who were beyond the Euphrates,5 with Shophach the commander of the army of Hadadezer at their head. 17 And when it was told to David, he gathered all Israel together and crossed the Jordan and came to them and drew up his forces against them. And when David set the battle in array against the Syrians, they fought with him. 18 And the Syrians fled before Israel, and David killed of the Syrians the men of 7,000 chariots and 40,000 foot soldiers, and put to death also Shophach the commander of their army. 19 And when the servants of Hadadezer saw that they had been defeated by Israel, they made peace with David and became subject to him. So the Syrians were not willing to save the Ammonites anymore. The Capture of Rabbah 20 In the spring of the year, the time when kings go out to battle, Joab led out the army and ravaged the country of the Ammonites and came and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem. And Joab struck down Rabbah and overthrew it. 2 And David took the crown of their king from his head. He found that it weighed a talent6 of gold, and in it was a precious stone. And it was placed on David’s head. And he brought out the spoil of the city, a very great amount. 3 And he brought out the people who were in it and set them to labor7 with saws and iron picks and axes.8 And thus David did to all the cities of the Ammonites. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem. Philistine Giants Killed 4 And after this there arose war with the Philistines at Gezer. Then Sibbecai the Hushathite struck down Sippai, who was one of the descendants of the giants, and the Philistines were subdued. 5 And there was again war with the Philistines, and Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam. 6 And there was again war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number, and he also was descended from the giants. 7 And when he taunted Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea, David’s brother, struck him down. 8 These were descended from the giants in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants. Footnotes [1] 18:3 Hebrew hand [2] 18:6 Septuagint, Vulgate, 2 Samuel 8:6 (compare Syriac); Hebrew lacks garrisons [3] 18:6 Hebrew the Lord saved David; also verse 13 [4] 19:6 A talent was about 75 pounds or 34 kilograms [5] 19:16 Hebrew the River [6] 20:2 A talent was about 75 pounds or 34 kilograms [7] 20:3 Compare 2 Samuel 12:31; Hebrew he sawed [8] 20:3 Compare 2 Samuel 12:31; Hebrew saws (ESV) Gospels and Epistles: Luke 11:1–36 Luke 11:1–36 (Listen) The Lord’s Prayer 11 Now Jesus1 was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:   “Father, hallowed be your name.  Your kingdom come.3   Give us each day our daily bread,24   and forgive us our sins,    for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.  And lead us not into temptation.” 5 And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’? 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence3 he will rise and give him whatever he needs. 9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for4 a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Jesus and Beelzebul 14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons,” 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven. 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls. 18 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; 22 but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil. 23 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Return of an Unclean Spirit 24 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. 26 Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first.” True Blessedness 27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” The Sign of Jonah 29 When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, “This generation is an evil generation. It seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The Light in You 33 “No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. 35 Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light.” Footnotes [1] 11:1 Greek he [2] 11:3 Or our bread for tomorrow [3] 11:8 Or persistence [4] 11:11 Some manuscripts insert bread, will give him a stone; or if he asks for (ESV)

With family: Genesis 18; Matthew 17 Genesis 18 (Listen) 18 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks1 of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord,2 if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs3 of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard4 for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it,5 saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen6 him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether7 according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” Abraham Intercedes for Sodom 22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. Footnotes [1] 18:1 Or terebinths [2] 18:3 Or My lord [3] 18:6 A seah was about 7 quarts or 7.3 liters [4] 18:14 Or wonderful [5] 18:15 Or acted falsely [6] 18:19 Hebrew known [7] 18:21 Or they deserve destruction; Hebrew they have made a complete end (ESV) Matthew 17 (Listen) The Transfiguration 17 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son,1 with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” 10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist. Jesus Heals a Boy with a Demon 14 And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, 15 said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he has seizures and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. 16 And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” 17 And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon,2 and it3 came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly.4 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” 20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”5 Jesus Again Foretells Death, Resurrection 22 As they were gathering6 in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, 23 and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were greatly distressed. The Temple Tax 24 When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, “Does your teacher not pay the tax?” 25 He said, “Yes.” And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?” 26 And when he said, “From others,” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel.7 Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.” Footnotes [1] 17:5 Or my Son, my (or the) Beloved [2] 17:18 Greek it [3] 17:18 Greek the demon [4] 17:18 Greek from that hour [5] 17:20 Some manuscripts insert verse 21: But this kind never comes out except by prayer and fasting [6] 17:22 Some manuscripts remained [7] 17:27 Greek stater, a silver coin worth four drachmas or approximately one shekel (ESV) In private: Nehemiah 7; Acts 17 Nehemiah 7 (Listen) 7 Now when the wall had been built and I had set up the doors, and the gatekeepers, the singers, and the Levites had been appointed, 2 I gave my brother Hanani and Hananiah the governor of the castle charge over Jerusalem, for he was a more faithful and God-fearing man than many. 3 And I said to them, “Let not the gates of Jerusalem be opened until the sun is hot. And while they are still standing guard, let them shut and bar the doors. Appoint guards from among the inhabitants of Jerusalem, some at their guard posts and some in front of their own homes.” 4 The city was wide and large, but the people within it were few, and no houses had been rebuilt. Lists of Returned Exiles 5 Then my God put it into my heart to assemble the nobles and the officials and the people to be enrolled by genealogy. And I found the book of the genealogy of those who came up at the first, and I found written in it: 6 These were the people of the province who came up out of the captivity of those exiles whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried into exile. They returned to Jerusalem and Judah, each to his town. 7 They came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel: 8 the sons of Parosh, 2,172. 9 The sons of Shephatiah, 372. 10 The sons of Arah, 652. 11 The sons of Pahath-moab, namely the sons of Jeshua and Joab, 2,818. 12 The sons of Elam, 1,254. 13 The sons of Zattu, 845. 14 The sons of Zaccai, 760. 15 The sons of Binnui, 648. 16 The sons of Bebai, 628. 17 The sons of Azgad, 2,322. 18 The sons of Adonikam, 667. 19 The sons of Bigvai, 2,067. 20 The sons of Adin, 655. 21 The sons of Ater, namely of Hezekiah, 98. 22 The sons of Hashum, 328. 23 The sons of Bezai, 324. 24 The sons of Hariph, 112. 25 The sons of Gibeon, 95. 26 The men of Bethlehem and Netophah, 188. 27 The men of Anathoth, 128. 28 The men of Beth-azmaveth, 42. 29 The men of Kiriath-jearim, Chephirah, and Beeroth, 743. 30 The men of Ramah and Geba, 621. 31 The men of Michmas, 122. 32 The men of Bethel and Ai, 123. 33 The men of the other Nebo, 52. 34 The sons of the other Elam, 1,254. 35 The sons of Harim, 320. 36 The sons of Jericho, 345. 37 The sons of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, 721. 38 The sons of Senaah, 3,930. 39 The priests: the sons of Jedaiah, namely the house of Jeshua, 973. 40 The sons of Immer, 1,052. 41 The sons of Pashhur, 1,247. 42 The sons of Harim, 1,017. 43 The Levites: the sons of Jeshua, namely of Kadmiel of the sons of Hodevah, 74. 44 The singers: the sons of Asaph, 148. 45 The gatekeepers: the sons of Shallum, the sons of Ater, the sons of Talmon, the sons of Akkub, the sons of Hatita, the sons of Shobai, 138. 46 The temple servants: the sons of Ziha, the sons of Hasupha, the sons of Tabbaoth, 47 the sons of Keros, the sons of Sia, the sons of Padon, 48 the sons of Lebana, the sons of Hagaba, the sons of Shalmai, 49 the sons of Hanan, the sons of Giddel, the sons of Gahar, 50 the sons of Reaiah, the sons of Rezin, the sons of Nekoda, 51 the sons of Gazzam, the sons of Uzza, the sons of Paseah, 52 the sons of Besai, the sons of Meunim, the sons of Nephushesim, 53 the sons of Bakbuk, the sons of Hakupha, the sons of Harhur, 54 the sons of Bazlith, the sons of Mehida, the sons of Harsha, 55 the sons of Barkos, the sons of Sisera, the sons of Temah, 56 the sons of Neziah, the sons of Hatipha. 57 The sons of Solomon’s servants: the sons of Sotai, the sons of Sophereth, the sons of Perida, 58 the sons of Jaala, the sons of Darkon, the sons of Giddel, 59 the sons of Shephatiah, the sons of Hattil, the sons of Pochereth-hazzebaim, the sons of Amon. 60 All the temple servants and the sons of Solomon’s servants were 392. 61 The following were those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addon, and Immer, but they could not prove their fathers’ houses nor their descent, whether they belonged to Israel: 62 the sons of Delaiah, the sons of Tobiah, the sons of Nekoda, 642. 63 Also, of the priests: the sons of Hobaiah, the sons of Hakkoz, the sons of Barzillai (who had taken a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by their name). 64 These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but it was not found there, so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. 65 The governor told them that they were not to partake of the most holy food until a priest with Urim and Thummim should arise. Totals of People and Gifts 66 The whole assembly together was 42,360, 67 besides their male and female servants, of whom there were 7,337. And they had 245 singers, male and female. 68 Their horses were 736, their mules 245,1 69 their camels 435, and their donkeys 6,720. 70 Now some of the heads of fathers’ houses gave to the work. The governor gave to the treasury 1,000 darics2 of gold, 50 basins, 30 priests’ garments and 500 minas3 of silver.4 71 And some of the heads of fathers’ houses gave into the treasury of the work 20,000 darics of gold and 2,200 minas of silver. 72 And what the rest of the people gave was 20,000 darics of gold, 2,000 minas of silver, and 67 priests’ garments. 73 So the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, some of the people, the temple servants, and all Israel, lived in their towns. And when the seventh month had come, the people of Israel were in their towns. Footnotes [1] 7:68 Compare Ezra 2:66 and the margins of some Hebrew manuscripts; Hebrew lacks Their horses . . . 245 [2] 7:70 A daric was a coin weighing about 1/4 ounce or 8.5 grams [3] 7:70 A mina was about 1 1/4 pounds or 0.6 kilogram [4] 7:70 Probable reading; Hebrew lacks minas of silver (ESV) Acts 17 (Listen) Paul and Silas in Thessalonica 17 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women. 5 But the Jews1 were jealous, and taking some wicked men of the rabble, they formed a mob, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the crowd. 6 And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, 7 and Jason has received them, and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.” 8 And the people and the city authorities were disturbed when they heard these things. 9 And when they had taken money as security from Jason and the rest, they let them go. Paul and Silas in Berea 10 The brothers2 immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men. 13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Berea also, they came there too, agitating and stirring up the crowds. 14 Then the brothers immediately sent Paul off on his way to the sea, but Silas and Timothy remained there. 15 Those who conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens, and after receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they departed. Paul in Athens 16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18 Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21 Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new. Paul Addresses the Areopagus 22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,3 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for   “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;4 as even some of your own poets have said,   “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’5 29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” 32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 So Paul went out from their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them. Footnotes [1] 17:5 Greek Ioudaioi probably refers here to Jewish religious leaders, and others under their influence, in that time; also verse 13 [2] 17:10 Or brothers and sisters; also verse 14 [3] 17:24 Greek made by hands [4] 17:28 Probably from Epimenides of Crete [5] 17:28 From Aratus’s poem “Phainomena” (ESV)

Old Testament: Genesis 18–19 Genesis 18–19 (Listen) 18 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks1 of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord,2 if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs3 of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard4 for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it,5 saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen6 him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether7 according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” Abraham Intercedes for Sodom 22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. God Rescues Lot 19 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth 2 and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” 3 But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door down. 10 But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them and shut the door. 11 And they struck with blindness the men who were at the entrance of the house, both small and great, so that they wore themselves out groping for the door. 12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place. 13 For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it.” 14 So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, “Up! Get out of this place, for the LORD is about to destroy the city.” But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting. 15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he lingered. So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 And as they brought them out, one said, “Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away.” 18 And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords. 19 Behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. 20 Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there—is it not a little one?—and my life will be saved!” 21 He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. 22 Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.8 God Destroys Sodom 23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26 But Lot’s wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace. 29 So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived. Lot and His Daughters 30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.9 He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.10 He is the father of the Ammonites to this day. Footnotes [1] 18:1 Or terebinths [2] 18:3 Or My lord [3] 18:6 A seah was about 7 quarts or 7.3 liters [4] 18:14 Or wonderful [5] 18:15 Or acted falsely [6] 18:19 Hebrew known [7] 18:21 Or they deserve destruction; Hebrew they have made a complete end [8] 19:22 Zoar means little [9] 19:37 Moab sounds like the Hebrew for from father [10] 19:38 Ben-ammi means son of my people (ESV) New Testament: Matthew 6:1–18 Matthew 6:1–18 (Listen) Giving to the Needy 6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Lord’s Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:   “Our Father in heaven,  hallowed be your name.110   Your kingdom come,  your will be done,2    on earth as it is in heaven.11   Give us this day our daily bread,312   and forgive us our debts,    as we also have forgiven our debtors.13   And lead us not into temptation,    but deliver us from evil.4 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Fasting 16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Footnotes [1] 6:9 Or Let your name be kept holy, or Let your name be treated with reverence [2] 6:10 Or Let your kingdom come, let your will be done [3] 6:11 Or our bread for tomorrow [4] 6:13 Or the evil one; some manuscripts add For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen (ESV) Psalm: Psalm 9 Psalm 9 (Listen) I Will Recount Your Wonderful Deeds 1 To the choirmaster: according to Muth-labben.2 A Psalm of David. 9   I will give thanks to the LORD with my whole heart;    I will recount all of your wonderful deeds.2   I will be glad and exult in you;    I will sing praise to your name, O Most High. 3   When my enemies turn back,    they stumble and perish before3 your presence.4   For you have maintained my just cause;    you have sat on the throne, giving righteous judgment. 5   You have rebuked the nations; you have made the wicked perish;    you have blotted out their name forever and ever.6   The enemy came to an end in everlasting ruins;    their cities you rooted out;    the very memory of them has perished. 7   But the LORD sits enthroned forever;    he has established his throne for justice,8   and he judges the world with righteousness;    he judges the peoples with uprightness. 9   The LORD is a stronghold for the oppressed,    a stronghold in times of trouble.10   And those who know your name put their trust in you,    for you, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek you. 11   Sing praises to the LORD, who sits enthroned in Zion!    Tell among the peoples his deeds!12   For he who avenges blood is mindful of them;    he does not forget the cry of the afflicted. 13   Be gracious to me, O LORD!    See my affliction from those who hate me,    O you who lift me up from the gates of death,14   that I may recount all your praises,    that in the gates of the daughter of Zion    I may rejoice in your salvation. 15   The nations have sunk in the pit that they made;    in the net that they hid, their own foot has been caught.16   The LORD has made himself known; he has executed judgment;    the wicked are snared in the work of their own hands. Higgaion.4 Selah 17   The wicked shall return to Sheol,    all the nations that forget God. 18   For the needy shall not always be forgotten,    and the hope of the poor shall not perish forever. 19   Arise, O LORD! Let not man prevail;    let the nations be judged before you!20   Put them in fear, O LORD!    Let the nations know that they are but men! Selah Footnotes [1] 9:1 Psalms 9 and 10 together follow an acrostic pattern, each stanza beginning with the successive letters of the Hebrew alphabet. In the Septuagint they form one psalm [2] 9:1 Probably a musical or liturgical term [3] 9:3 Or because of [4] 9:16 Probably a musical or liturgical term (ESV) Proverb: Proverbs 3:11–12 Proverbs 3:11–12 (Listen) 11   My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline    or be weary of his reproof,12   for the LORD reproves him whom he loves,    as a father the son in whom he delights. (ESV)

Old Testament: Genesis 18–19 Genesis 18–19 (Listen) 18 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks1 of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord,2 if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs3 of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard4 for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it,5 saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen6 him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether7 according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” Abraham Intercedes for Sodom 22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. God Rescues Lot 19 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth 2 and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” 3 But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door down. 10 But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them and shut the door. 11 And they struck with blindness the men who were at the entrance of the house, both small and great, so that they wore themselves out groping for the door. 12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place. 13 For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it.” 14 So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, “Up! Get out of this place, for the LORD is about to destroy the city.” But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting. 15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he lingered. So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 And as they brought them out, one said, “Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away.” 18 And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords. 19 Behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. 20 Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there—is it not a little one?—and my life will be saved!” 21 He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. 22 Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.8 God Destroys Sodom 23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26 But Lot’s wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace. 29 So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived. Lot and His Daughters 30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.9 He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.10 He is the father of the Ammonites to this day. Footnotes [1] 18:1 Or terebinths [2] 18:3 Or My lord [3] 18:6 A seah was about 7 quarts or 7.3 liters [4] 18:14 Or wonderful [5] 18:15 Or acted falsely [6] 18:19 Hebrew known [7] 18:21 Or they deserve destruction; Hebrew they have made a complete end [8] 19:22 Zoar means little [9] 19:37 Moab sounds like the Hebrew for from father [10] 19:38 Ben-ammi means son of my people (ESV) Psalm: Psalm 9 Psalm 9 (Listen) I Will Recount Your Wonderful Deeds 1 To the choirmaster: according to Muth-labben.2 A Psalm of David. 9   I will give thanks to the LORD with my whole heart;    I will recount all of your wonderful deeds.2   I will be glad and exult in you;    I will sing praise to your name, O Most High. 3   When my enemies turn back,    they stumble and perish before3 your presence.4   For you have maintained my just cause;    you have sat on the throne, giving righteous judgment. 5   You have rebuked the nations; you have made the wicked perish;    you have blotted out their name forever and ever.6   The enemy came to an end in everlasting ruins;    their cities you rooted out;    the very memory of them has perished. 7   But the LORD sits enthroned forever;    he has established his throne for justice,8   and he judges the world with righteousness;    he judges the peoples with uprightness. 9   The LORD is a stronghold for the oppressed,    a stronghold in times of trouble.10   And those who know your name put their trust in you,    for you, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek you. 11   Sing praises to the LORD, who sits enthroned in Zion!    Tell among the peoples his deeds!12   For he who avenges blood is mindful of them;    he does not forget the cry of the afflicted. 13   Be gracious to me, O LORD!    See my affliction from those who hate me,    O you who lift me up from the gates of death,14   that I may recount all your praises,    that in the gates of the daughter of Zion    I may rejoice in your salvation. 15   The nations have sunk in the pit that they made;    in the net that they hid, their own foot has been caught.16   The LORD has made himself known; he has executed judgment;    the wicked are snared in the work of their own hands. Higgaion.4 Selah 17   The wicked shall return to Sheol,    all the nations that forget God. 18   For the needy shall not always be forgotten,    and the hope of the poor shall not perish forever. 19   Arise, O LORD! Let not man prevail;    let the nations be judged before you!20   Put them in fear, O LORD!    Let the nations know that they are but men! Selah Footnotes [1] 9:1 Psalms 9 and 10 together follow an acrostic pattern, each stanza beginning with the successive letters of the Hebrew alphabet. In the Septuagint they form one psalm [2] 9:1 Probably a musical or liturgical term [3] 9:3 Or because of [4] 9:16 Probably a musical or liturgical term (ESV) New Testament: Matthew 11 Matthew 11 (Listen) Messengers from John the Baptist 11 When Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities. 2 Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers1 are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 6 And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.” 7 As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 What then did you go out to see? A man2 dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. 9 What then did you go out to see? A prophet?3 Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is he of whom it is written,   “‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face,    who will prepare your way before you.’ 11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence,4 and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear,5 let him hear. 16 “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates, 17   “‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;    we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”6 Woe to Unrepentant Cities 20 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.” Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest 25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.7 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Footnotes [1] 11:5 Leprosy was a term for several skin diseases; see Leviticus 13 [2] 11:8 Or Why then did you go out? To see a man . . . [3] 11:9 Some manuscripts Why then did you go out? To see a prophet? [4] 11:12 Or has been coming violently [5] 11:15 Some manuscripts omit to hear [6] 11:19 Some manuscripts children (compare Luke 7:35) [7] 11:26 Or for so it pleased you well (ESV)

Morning: Genesis 18–19 Genesis 18–19 (Listen) 18 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks1 of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord,2 if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs3 of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard4 for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it,5 saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen6 him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether7 according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” Abraham Intercedes for Sodom 22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. God Rescues Lot 19 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth 2 and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” 3 But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door down. 10 But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them and shut the door. 11 And they struck with blindness the men who were at the entrance of the house, both small and great, so that they wore themselves out groping for the door. 12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place. 13 For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it.” 14 So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, “Up! Get out of this place, for the LORD is about to destroy the city.” But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting. 15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he lingered. So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 And as they brought them out, one said, “Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away.” 18 And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords. 19 Behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. 20 Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there—is it not a little one?—and my life will be saved!” 21 He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. 22 Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.8 God Destroys Sodom 23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26 But Lot’s wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace. 29 So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived. Lot and His Daughters 30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.9 He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.10 He is the father of the Ammonites to this day. Footnotes [1] 18:1 Or terebinths [2] 18:3 Or My lord [3] 18:6 A seah was about 7 quarts or 7.3 liters [4] 18:14 Or wonderful [5] 18:15 Or acted falsely [6] 18:19 Hebrew known [7] 18:21 Or they deserve destruction; Hebrew they have made a complete end [8] 19:22 Zoar means little [9] 19:37 Moab sounds like the Hebrew for from father [10] 19:38 Ben-ammi means son of my people (ESV) Evening: Matthew 6 Matthew 6 (Listen) Giving to the Needy 6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Lord’s Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:   “Our Father in heaven,  hallowed be your name.110   Your kingdom come,  your will be done,2    on earth as it is in heaven.11   Give us this day our daily bread,312   and forgive us our debts,    as we also have forgiven our debtors.13   And lead us not into temptation,    but deliver us from evil.4 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Fasting 16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust5 destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.6 Do Not Be Anxious 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?7 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. Footnotes [1] 6:9 Or Let your name be kept holy, or Let your name be treated with reverence [2] 6:10 Or Let your kingdom come, let your will be done [3] 6:11 Or our bread for tomorrow [4] 6:13 Or the evil one; some manuscripts add For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen [5] 6:19 Or worm; also verse 20 [6] 6:24 Greek mammon, a Semitic word for money or possessions [7] 6:27 Or a single cubit to his stature; a cubit was about 18 inches or 45 centimeters (ESV)

Genesis 16–18 Genesis 16–18 (Listen) Sarai and Hagar 16 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. She had a female Egyptian servant whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said to Abram, “Behold now, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Go in to my servant; it may be that I shall obtain children1 by her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. 3 So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife. 4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress.2 5 And Sarai said to Abram, “May the wrong done to me be on you! I gave my servant to your embrace, and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked on me with contempt. May the LORD judge between you and me!” 6 But Abram said to Sarai, “Behold, your servant is in your power; do to her as you please.” Then Sarai dealt harshly with her, and she fled from her. 7 The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.” 9 The angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel of the LORD also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude.” 11 And the angel of the LORD said to her,   “Behold, you are pregnant    and shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael,3    because the LORD has listened to your affliction.12   He shall be a wild donkey of a man,    his hand against everyone    and everyone’s hand against him,  and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.” 13 So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing,”4 for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.”5 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi;6 it lies between Kadesh and Bered. 15 And Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram. Abraham and the Covenant of Circumcision 17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty;7 walk before me, and be blameless, 2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him, 4 “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram,8 but your name shall be Abraham,9 for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.” 9 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Isaac’s Birth Promised 15 And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah10 shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover, I will give11 you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” 19 God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac.12 I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.” 22 When he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham. 23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son and all those born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised. 27 And all the men of his house, those born in the house and those bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him. 18 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks13 of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord,14 if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs15 of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard16 for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it,17 saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen18 him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether19 according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” Abraham Intercedes for Sodom 22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. Footnotes [1] 16:2 Hebrew be built up, which sounds like the Hebrew for children [2] 16:4 Hebrew her mistress was dishonorable in her eyes; similarly in verse 5 [3] 16:11 Ishmael means God hears [4] 16:13 Or You are a God who sees me [5] 16:13 Hebrew Have I really seen him here who sees me? or Would I have looked here for the one who sees me? [6] 16:14 Beer-lahai-roi means the well of the Living One who sees me [7] 17:1 Hebrew El Shaddai [8] 17:5 Abram means exalted father [9] 17:5 Abraham means father of a multitude [10] 17:15 Sarai and Sarah mean princess [11] 17:16 Hebrew have given [12] 17:19 Isaac means he laughs [13] 18:1 Or terebinths [14] 18:3 Or My lord [15] 18:6 A seah was about 7 quarts or 7.3 liters [16] 18:14 Or wonderful [17] 18:15 Or acted falsely [18] 18:19 Hebrew known [19] 18:21 Or they deserve destruction; Hebrew they have made a complete end (ESV)

Genesis 16–18 Genesis 16–18 (Listen) Sarai and Hagar 16 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. She had a female Egyptian servant whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said to Abram, “Behold now, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Go in to my servant; it may be that I shall obtain children1 by her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. 3 So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife. 4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress.2 5 And Sarai said to Abram, “May the wrong done to me be on you! I gave my servant to your embrace, and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked on me with contempt. May the LORD judge between you and me!” 6 But Abram said to Sarai, “Behold, your servant is in your power; do to her as you please.” Then Sarai dealt harshly with her, and she fled from her. 7 The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.” 9 The angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel of the LORD also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude.” 11 And the angel of the LORD said to her,   “Behold, you are pregnant    and shall bear a son.  You shall call his name Ishmael,3    because the LORD has listened to your affliction.12   He shall be a wild donkey of a man,    his hand against everyone    and everyone’s hand against him,  and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.” 13 So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing,”4 for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.”5 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi;6 it lies between Kadesh and Bered. 15 And Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram. Abraham and the Covenant of Circumcision 17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty;7 walk before me, and be blameless, 2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him, 4 “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram,8 but your name shall be Abraham,9 for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.” 9 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Isaac’s Birth Promised 15 And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah10 shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover, I will give11 you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” 19 God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac.12 I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.” 22 When he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham. 23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son and all those born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised. 27 And all the men of his house, those born in the house and those bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him. 18 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks13 of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord,14 if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs15 of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard16 for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it,17 saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen18 him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether19 according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.” Abraham Intercedes for Sodom 22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. Footnotes [1] 16:2 Hebrew be built up, which sounds like the Hebrew for children [2] 16:4 Hebrew her mistress was dishonorable in her eyes; similarly in verse 5 [3] 16:11 Ishmael means God hears [4] 16:13 Or You are a God who sees me [5] 16:13 Hebrew Have I really seen him here who sees me? or Would I have looked here for the one who sees me? [6] 16:14 Beer-lahai-roi means the well of the Living One who sees me [7] 17:1 Hebrew El Shaddai [8] 17:5 Abram means exalted father [9] 17:5 Abraham means father of a multitude [10] 17:15 Sarai and Sarah mean princess [11] 17:16 Hebrew have given [12] 17:19 Isaac means he laughs [13] 18:1 Or terebinths [14] 18:3 Or My lord [15] 18:6 A seah was about 7 quarts or 7.3 liters [16] 18:14 Or wonderful [17] 18:15 Or acted falsely [18] 18:19 Hebrew known [19] 18:21 Or they deserve destruction; Hebrew they have made a complete end (ESV)

Genesis 18-1-15-And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, -O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on-since you have come to your servant.- So they said, -Do as you have said.- 6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, -Quick- Three seahs of fine flour- Knead it, and make cakes.- 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate. -9 They said to him, -Where is Sarah your wife-- And he said, -She is in the tent.- 10 The LORD said, -I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.- And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, -After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure-- 13 The LORD said to Abraham, -Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old-' 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD- At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next

It's been a couple of months since the series final dropped, and plenty has happened with Use Of Force since then. So Sarah has Brigid on the line for a debrief. Follow Use Of Force on Instagram @use_of_force  Join the conversation on Facebook @UseOfForcePodcast  Show Notes are here Contact: useofforcepodcast@gmail.com

Show Resources Enter the Contest! bit.ly/linkedinadscontest LinkedIn fixing false metrics Writeup of the GenZ research Free chapter of Instabrain: bixaresearch.com/freechapter LinkedIn Learning course about LinkedIn Ads by AJ Wilcox: LinkedIn Advertising Course Contact us at Podcast@B2Linked.com with ideas for what you'd like AJ to cover. Show Transcript: Generation Z is coming into the workforce in droves. How are they using LinkedIn? And how will you market to them? Stay tuned, we'll find out. This is the LinkedIn Ads Show. Welcome to the LinkedIn Ads Show. Here's your host, AJ Wilcox. Hey there LinkedIn Ads fanatics, as many of you may know, Generation Z is the massive and up and coming generation. They're shaping popular culture. And they're beginning to graduate out of school and into the workforce. We here at B2inked really wanted to know how the coming generation both thought about and uses LinkedIn so we can see what the future of LinkedIn ads platform might look like. So we've partnered with a good friend of mine, Sarah Weise, who happens to be the CEO of the market research firm, Bixa research. I'm not sure how much I'm able to disclose. But let's just say that her firm is amazing at research. Since she gets to work with brands like a search engine that starts with the letter G, and a payment processor that rhymes with Hey Pal, we went out and interviewed a bunch of Gen Z members. And the results were pretty surprising. We'll dig into our findings, as well as ideas on how you can better relate to them. In the news, the big thing this week was the announcement that LinkedIn was misreporting some of their metrics. And they're going to be issuing some refunds out to their clients. In the article that LinkedIn shared on their marketing solutions blog by someone amazing that I have a lot of respect for Gyanda Sachdeva, we discovered two measurement issues. Here's how we're making it right. And you may have received some emails this week, or maybe it's an email, I don't know, where they're letting you know that some of the accounts that you're on may have had misrepresented impressions or video stats. In the article Gyanda mentions that in August, their engineering team found and then fixed two measurement issues that were causing to over report impressions and video views. She says that these issues potentially impacted about 418,000 customers over a two plus year period. So this sounds pretty serious. But then she goes on to say that more than 90% of the customers who had an impact equated to less than $25 US. So they said that they're committed to making it right, which is awesome. And I remember the same thing happened with Facebook a few years ago, when they were miscalculating video impressions. And I just kept thinking it would have been so easy for LinkedIn to just brush this under the rug and move on. And I absolutely admire the LinkedIn leadership so much for deciding to make this announcement public. If you're anything like me, you read the emails and went, huh. So I'm still waiting to understand more of what they mean and what the process for reimbursement is going to be like. Because I received several emails the first week that said that we need to contact support for the ad credits for every account. And then I got another email this week that was a little bit different, and made it seem a bit more like the credits would be given automatically. And I sure hope so because I have no desire to go and file like 100 different support tickets with LinkedIn just to get less than $25 back. Of course, if you manage a large spending account, the sum could be significantly more. And it could be worth filing a ticket if that's what we need to do. So I'll let you know as I find out. And then if you've been listening to the last few episodes, our contest, our ad performance contest is in full swing. If you go to bit.ly/linkedinadscontest, you'll see the link down below in the show notes. And from now until December 11 at midnight Pacific time US, you can go on and submit a screenshot of an ad, or a campaign, or a campaign group that has really good performance. We're looking for either a ridiculously high click through rate, or a super high conversion rate, or a really low cost per click. And heck, you could submit for all three categories. The winner in each category, though, is going to win something that is absolutely amazing. And I can't tell you what it is yet, but I'm going to tell you all about it when I announced the winners. And if you're a LinkedIn advertiser, be aware that this is something that no other advertiser has, this is going to give you a serious leg up on competition. So if you're looking for ammo to bust ahead of your competition, definitely find a way to submit and win this contest. So go jump into your account now and look for those high click through rates, high conversion rates, and low costs per click. So get it submitted now and I'll help to have your prize given out by Christmas or New Year's, and I can't wait to reveal to you what you're going to be winning. So highlighting a review. Jose Bormey, who's a marketing manager, he said, "I love this podcast. There's an extremely helpful tip on the most recent podcast episode to avoid high cost per click in Q4 and instead use the budget for a big bang to kick off the new year. Cybersecurity in itself is extremely competitive, and these podcasts have helped save me a fortune. Looking forward to 2021 inbound spotlight once again." Thanks, Jose. I speak at the inbound conference every year, and I speak on advanced LinkedIn Ads. And Jose, it sounds like you've gotten to attend one or more of those presentations. So if it's going to be in person in 2021, I'd absolutely love to get to meet you in real life. So thanks so much for the kind words, and I'm so glad that we've helped you save some cash in such a competitive industry. And you, yes, you! I want to feature you. So go and leave a review. Let us know what you like, what's helped you in your jobs or ads management? I'd love to give you a shout out here. Okay, with that being said, let's hit it. Well, everyone, my name is AJ Wilcox, I run B2Linked.com. We're an ad agency that literally LinkedIn Ads is all we do. Obviously, a huge fan of LinkedIn. And I'm super excited to be with Sarah Weise today who has a great friend. And she is the author of Instabrain, which is the predominant So this is the predominant book for learning about how Gen Z interacts with social media, and how their purchasing which is obviously going to be really important for you. If it's not already, it will be in the in the coming years. Sara, like I said, longtime friend, we speak in a lot of the same conferences, and we actually got together in person before the COVID thing happened, we got a chance to do a lot of like original research, interviewing students, members of the Gen Z community live. And I am so excited to be here today. Sarah, take us away, tell us about the study, and kind of lead us into the discussion. So I think the study started because as I was going to conferences, and I was presenting about all the social media that Gen Z uses, there was always a question after the conference, like, Hey, I noticed you didn't talk about LinkedIn. Why didn't you talk about LinkedIn? And I would always say things like, Well, it's because it just didn't come up when we were talking to Gen Z. I mean, we did almost two years of research on Gen Z, before I started speaking about it, and I mean, it was all sorts of research, qualitative research and quantitative research and in home ethnography pre COVID, where we would actually go into people's homes and, and hang out with teenagers, they literally spent a year and a half hanging out with teenagers. And I mean, that was fun. And what's really interesting was that it just the topic of LinkedIn never came up. And most of these interviews were fairly open ended, like, show me how you use technology. How are you using technology to do your homework today? Walk me through it. Or like, what are you researching right now? Like, oh, you you're into guitar, and you're into rock music, like, tell me about that. And show me what you're doing and how you're doing that? Oh, you're into this video game? Tell me about it. You know, where do you go to find information on this and watching them switch between devices and between social media apps and diving deep into topics and things like that. But LinkedIn never came up. And even with the kind of older Gen Z's who are now entering the workforce, they would say things like, Oh, I'm looking for a job. And we'd be like, oh, show me how you do that. And they would go to indeed, or they would go to other places, or some of them were using LinkedIn, but it was with like, surgical precision. So they would go in there and they would be like, yep, I'm going to search for a job. Okay, I found something. Okay, I'm getting out now. And it was like, as fast as they could get out of LinkedIn, they were doing that. And so when we got together, AJ, I think I approached you because I was like, Okay, I don't get this. People keep asking about it. I need to have an answer. Let's figure out what you know what's going on. And I forgot to mention that you are the CEO of a market research company. So just to be very clear here. It was definitely you who approached me, because it never came on my radar to think, hey, I should go and do an original study. Like, definitely not in my wheelhouse. Yeah, I mean, it originated because we were doing market research on Gen Z for big companies like Google. And some, let's see some large banks and things like that. And what what happened was that we started asking the question to like, how do your new employees like find you? Where are you putting your job posts up and seeing the most Gen Z applicants and we were starting to ask those questions. And LinkedIn was just not coming up that often. And so anyway, so we started digging into it, and we started doing our own research. And what we found was really interesting, it was really surprising because what we found is that over 50% of Gen Z's and you know, across the country, they have a LinkedIn account. I mean, most colleges and universities I would say older Gen Z's like 18 and up, they have a LinkedIn account. In large part because most universities as a part of a career class or a requirement for some sort of career services, tell their students, you need to download LinkedIn, you need to create an account and so they have been asked to create account in some cases required to create a LinkedIn account, and so over 50% have a LinkedIn account, but only something like 4% were using it. I think it was 96% of the people we talked with. And these were Gen Z's across the country in the older Gen Z age range. So from about 18 years old to 24 years old. So really like in college, getting their first job, you know, applying for those entry level jobs. They were saying, This is not something we use. 10:25 What I love is, when we were in person, we were actually interviewing students on the campus of University of Utah. And I think we interviewed like 12 or 13 people before finally someone said, Oh, yeah, I have LinkedIn. And we're like, oh, good, but they show us how you use it. Yeah, yeah. They're like, Oh, I created an account one time, I can't even figure out my password. So it was like those who have it. They're certainly at least not yet not using it. Yeah. It's interesting, because this is a group that this is, first of all, this is like the largest living generation right now with a big deal type of group, especially for any sort of digital platform that wants to be, you know, a digital platform five years from now, they need to be marketing to and meeting the needs of this younger generation. And especially for for LinkedIn, which is a platform that enables people to find jobs. This is a generation that is entering the workforce now. And for some reason, there is a breakdown between what LinkedIn offers and the perception of that in the minds of Gen Z. And so I almost will say that I think that LinkedIn is failing, its Gen Z customers, because it's not giving them the information they need, maybe the tools they need, the features they need, and telling them about them and educating them on it. Because the Gen Z's we talked to they didn't even see LinkedIn as a social media platform. It was the same as indeed, it was the same exact thing as anywhere else that they would look for jobs. Yeah. And on top of that, we talked to several students who were actively looking for a job. And so we asked them, like, Hey, how are you looking? Would you consider LinkedIn? And they had this reaction to it like, Oh, well, the kinds of jobs I'm looking for, aren't there, so I'm not even gonna try. Yeah. And some of the jobs were like internships, like, oh, I need a professional internship. And we were like, Oh, my gosh, that kind of stuff is on LinkedIn. Like, of course, we couldn't say this, because we were conducting like, very third party neutral interviews. But in our minds, we were like, ooh, interesting feedback. AJ was telling himself like namaste, just keep calm. Expert in all things LinkedIn Haha! Yes. It was very sad. So yeah, tell us more about like, what are the findings? What really surprised you as you were going through this research? 12:54 I think what surprised me the most is that they don't see LinkedIn as a social media site. Like it is not in their heads anywhere close to what an Instagram is, or even a Facebook is like. They're not using Facebook, as much as say, an older demographics. But they certainly understand that Facebook is a social media platform, they're just not seeing LinkedIn as a social media platform. And they're definitely not seeing it as something that they would use. Yeah. And this is so surprising to me, because LinkedIn stopped being a job search platform to me back in like 2012. And it's been an actual social media for communicating ever since then. So it seems like LinkedIn is either not branding themselves or not reaching Gen Z with the proper messaging so they even know what the platform is and why they would want to use it. Yeah. Especially because we were asking questions too, about like, Oh, do you ever like go to the news feed? Do you ever look at articles in your field? Or do you ever communicate with people? Do you try to establish connection with that hiring manager? I mean, they tell you who the hiring manager is, who are you trying to connect with them and start conversations with them in any sort of way? And they just had no idea that that was even a possibility. 14:14 Yeah. Do you have any more insights you want to share? Or should we start going into like the prescriptive stuff like let's Let's dig into it because I think the biggest finding here is that LinkedIn is not working for this generation, so I want to hear from you AJ, LinkedIn expert, like what features are really would be really helpful to this generation who is looking for a job. And I guess I should add to that, especially now that this is we're in COVID, where months into this, it is really hard for a young person, an older Gen Z, who was just out of college to find an entry level job. Like it is extremely difficult because those entry level jobs, they're being filled by people who are overqualified for them. There. filled by people with many years of experience, who are accepting a lower salary and taking that job because unemployment is high. I mean, really, it's a really strange time because we went from this kind of the one of the largest economic booms in history to just crash bang, people are unemployed don't have jobs, like record levels of unemployment, people are just taking whatever they can find. And that made it so much harder all of a sudden to find jobs. And so I would have assumed that because of that, a young Gen Z, who is extremely digitally savvy, would be like, oh, let me hop on LinkedIn and see what there is to offer. And we're just not seeing that. Yeah. And first of all, Gen Z, I totally feel for you. I graduated in 2008. And I came out going, yes, can't wait to attack the world and go get a massive salary. And I found every single company was on hiring freeze due to the big economic downturn, 16:00 I love that you're talking to Gen Z, like they're on LinkedIn, posting this on LinkedIn. And you're, I think that's the thing. If you are watching this on LinkedIn right now, you're probably not Gen Z. Or if you are, you're one of the only ones and you should be very proud. And I absolutely understand what they're going through right now. Because it was tough. I mean, I had a year of digital marketing experience when I first graduated, and it took me three months to find a job for like, $14 an hour. And if you look at the numbers of Gen Z's right now who are moving back in with their parents, it is just off the charts, astronomical, especially, even if they're still in college, or they're, they've extended their college because they're like, I can't find a job right now so I'm going to like, you know, go for another semester and see what happens. Especially because it's, it's, um, you know, all virtual now. And I think a lot of them are also helping their parents out with their parents' jobs and things that are going on with their parents' lives, too. That's awesome. That just strikes me is actually really, really intelligent. It might be like, just necessity is the mother of invention. But I'm like, yeah, if I had a Gen Z son or daughter who was getting ready to enter the workforce, that's exactly like the hustle II'd want to see from them. Just figure out anything you can, it is a hustle. I mean, I interviewed one Gen Zer recently who said that he had, like, moved. He actually was in LA, trying to like start his career and then had moved back home to New Jersey to help out his parents power washing company, and was doing a ton of like, just manual labor power washing, because that's what his family needed. 17:40 That's fantastic. Good for those people. I know, I'm not talking to you, because you're not here, but good for you. Never gonna see that. He's not, it's not on LinkedIn. But if we posted on Instagram, he probably would. Oh, totally repost it just a little 30 second snippets. Haha! Snackable content. Haha! Yes, we'll break down only the most valuable stuff, just obviously, all of it. So we can kind of get prescriptive here, we can talk about the things that we think Gen Z could do, which obviously, we're not talking to you Gen Z, but maybe parents of Gen Z are watching. These are the things that you can help your your children understand and kind of give them a boost into the workforce. So I think the first thing that I would point out that I think is like the biggest no brainer about it, is if you have a son or daughter who is looking for a job right now in a really competitive environment, and they're not on LinkedIn, the ability to go viral on LinkedIn organically right now is insane. Um, basically what happens is anytime someone hits, like, comment, or share on your post, It then goes to a portion of their followers. And so the more people that are liking and engaging, the more people LinkedIn, start showing it to that aren't even in your network. So that's so big because being an influencer is like the be all end all for many in this generation. Like that is the goal, to get their ideas and their brand, because they really do think of themselves as an online brand to get that out into the world. Yeah, I don't think that they understand how, how easy it is to be a thought leader. And, and organically grow on LinkedIn. 19:22 And that's my point really, for for this is like, I mean, you think about the kinds of thought leaders who are bubbling to the top on LinkedIn. I mean, there's 30, I could name off who are HR experts, there are 50, who are sales experts who are just sharing stuff and trying to become well known. I don't know any Gen Zers, who are talking about the experiences they're having being authentic. I mean, for a generation who totally understands the value of becoming an influencer, the landscape here is totally ripe, for someone of this generation to come in and run it on LinkedIn. It's a lot different than the social media that they have right now because a lot of them are maybe doing YouTube videos or on Instagram, or you know even doing TikTok little 15 second TikTok things. And that's happening on video. And LinkedIn platform is just not set up for many. I mean, even doing this interview alone, we had so many tech difficulties getting Restream to work and getting like LinkedIn video platform to, to play nice with the LinkedIn live on an interview with two videos connecting, like to the point where we're just like, screw it, let's do this on a zoom video. And we'll post it afterwards, which defeats the whole purpose of LinkedIn Live. And I also think that LinkedIn needs to take some responsibility here and say, our features are not set up for the types of video sharing that Gen Z wants to do, that they are accustomed to doing on other platforms. 20:55 Oh, yeah. And the way that video works on LinkedIn, if you don't already know, you can attach video to it. So we could upload this as a native video, which I'll probably do, if it's less than 30 minutes, I think that's the limit for uploading video. For going live, they don't have a very, there's not a native ability to just like, hit it and go live, you have to use a third party, which means you're looping in all of these other technology issues, which is why we are not doing this live right now. So it adds a lot of complexity to it. Where this is a generation who is just there used to just hold up your phone, start recording yourself. We even tell when we do market research for companies, when we're doing product research for companies, we will even tell them if Gen Z can see your technology or notices your technology you're doing something wrong. Because it needs to be invisible. Like it needs to feel completely seamless, like oh, yeah, I just pushed the button. And yeah, of course that worked. So this whole let's let's connect through a third party thing. And I have to figure that out. I need an account. So I have a phone call with somebody at Restream. They don't hop on the phone. So I mean, just all of this contributes to like not a great experience for this generation. Yeah. And no knock on Restream. Because I actually love Restream. 22:17 Yeah, I think Restream is great. I think the reason that it didn't work for us is because you were trying to you've got like a computer, a DSLR hooked up, wires connecting, and there was some sort of delay with the video and audio. So I don't think this is a knock on Restream at all. I think this is a knock on LinkedIn, not natively offering the ability to just like, plug and play, like put a zoom conversation or do some sort of thing. Like I almost feel like they should have a studio in LinkedIn, LinkedIn platform, you can put two people in there and have a conversation like we're having right now and do it live? Like, why are we doing this on Zoom and Restream even just to get it into LinkedIn live, And the same solution that they could create, that's just two people talking, they could create a zoom competitor, where it's like, hey, don't even log into zoom, have all of your meetings on LinkedIn with your colleagues, like seems like a missed opportunity here. Yeah, and and that's a perfect platform to do it on. Because people are on LinkedIn for work. It's not like they're on Facebook all day like while they're working. You're trying to close down Facebook as much as you can, or, or Instagram or anything else for especially for older people. LinkedIn is the professional network that that I think most people over over 25 years or just people in general use for professional reasons. Yeah, totally. And so if you are the parent of a Gen Z, who's looking to go into the workforce, maybe you can help convince, I know, Gen Z may not want to be convinced of this. But you can help convince them like, yeah, the video stuff is harder, but because no one is doing it, there's a huge opportunity for you to cut through the clutter and become an influencer quicker, and be comfortable with text like you're comfortable sharing text and pictures as well, until video gets comfortable with where you're at. 24:10 I think one of the other findings that we saw that kind of surprised me. I mean, I guess once I thought about it, it was not surprising at all. But it was the fact that the real one of the reasons that Gen Z struggles with LinkedIn is that they go on LinkedIn. They see all these thought leaders, they see these people with great resumes because they've got 20 years in the industry or whatever it is. And they're like, Oh, my resume doesn't look like that. Like my summer internship where I got coffee for people or my like, I was a checkout person at a grocery store or I was a camp counselor. Like they're not seeing their experience as relevant to their resume. And that's in large part because of how they think of social media accounts. So they do think of it, you know that like most Gen Z's have five or six Instagram accounts. And a lot of people think that they're fake Instagrams and not real Instagrams, but they're not. They're actually, like, they're all real, legitimate accounts. They're just for different slices of their personality. And they're curating these little pockets, these little brands for themselves within each account. So if you're a Gen Xer and you're into photography, you might have a photography account, where you just follow photography and post photography, things. And you might also be into like a YouTube celebrity, so you're gonna have a fan account for them. And then you're gonna have your normal account, your school account where all your friends go, and then you're going to have like a separate account called you called your spam account, where like, it's just for your close friends, where you can be a little more real, because none of these are fully real. It's all just like little like curated slivers of their themselves. And so when you translate that to a job, they're going, Oh, I want to get a job in marketing, or that I'm wanting to get a job in HR, I want to get a job in this field, whatever the field is, and they're saying, none of my past experience tells that curated story to get me that job. And they're not seeing the connection between hey, the fact that I was a camp counselor actually taught me a lot of teamwork, because I'm planning and project management because I had to coordinate with other counselors, and I had to plan activities for the kids. And I had to do this, and I had to do that. And they taught me responsibility, and like, they're not seeing the connections between what those early jobs actually teach them, and how that is actually very relevant to a future career and an entry level position. I mean, if I see an entry level person who has had a job, as a grocery store, checkout, I know that they have good people skills, I know that they have good customer service skills, I know that they could basically make small talk with anybody, and that they listen, and they take directions and like, you know, just a lot about them based on an entry level job, even if it is not applicable to the job that they're applying for. But they don't see it that way. And they can make change. Yeah, absolutely. Mental math. Sure. Maybe. I don't know, with all the cash registers that just give it for you now. But yeah, I mean, I think that we also have to do a better job as you know, as parents and you know, as parents who are listening to this and talking to your, your Gen Z kids about, you know, when they put their resume on LinkedIn, or even if you're a school and listening to this and saying, what am I going to teach to the students in this career class, one of the things is, please list everything, it is relevant. And the fact that they can distill if they can say, I learned teamwork skills, because I did this, this and this at that job, that's even better. And also, like, I wish that they could do some sort of video resume or something instead, oh, yeah. Again, back to the video, because Gen Z's will talk about themselves and their goals and what they want to find in a job very quickly on video. Writing is another whole thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, if you can read a resume written out of emojis, like, Gen Z is gonna do great. I don't know. Haha! 28:25 Yeah, writing skills, probably not quite there yet. But I just, I learned how to spell a word right last week. So we can still keep learning. So if you've got a Gen Zer, you can help them you can help them understand. First of all, like, hey, being an influencer is possible on LinkedIn, no one else is doing it. And here's how you have to do it on LinkedIn. So I know this is a little bit less comfortable for you in the rest of the social media use, but it's writing things and sharing things, and leveraging video that may not work quite as smoothly. If you can help them with that, that's fantastic. Transcribing the video on otter.ai and then putting it out there. Yes, and then help them understand help them think through past experience. If they look at LinkedIn and go, man, all these other people have like CEO of this and 18 years of experience in that I'm not worthy with my grocery store checkout profile, help them understand like, point towards the skills that were built, and not necessarily what they think of like, you know, oh, the job title of ice cream scooper. Sorry, I'm not worthy. You are worthy! Figure out the skills that make you interesting, especially to those who are hiring for the entry level positions. 29:38 I think also there's a lot of kind of partnerships that I see for LinkedIn, with colleges and universities, because these colleges and universities are already telling their kids, hey, you are required to or you should create a LinkedIn account and they're doing it. I mean, the numbers show that they're doing it because they're being asked to do it. So why isn't there subsequent education that says, okay, now that you have an account, this is how you do it. And it's almost on LinkedIn to like, LinkedIn should know, based on the profile, how old the person is, like the personalized profile, they should know to show a video on how to customize your profile, instead of just walking them through like, the little checklist of your 80% complete, or whatever it is like they should actually do a video series maybe on LinkedIn learning or something like that, that's free to anybody who is in a certain age range, looking for an entry level position, and has recently opened an account to follow up and actually get that going. Yeah, maybe even consider, like some kinds of suggestions where someone puts like, common titles like grocery store clerk or babysitting, it might pop up recommendations and say, other people who have this experience have phrased it like this and have used these points from skills they've learned. So you'll maybe even consider some of those. If it's not a video, maybe it's dynamic pop ups. Yeah. And also, the email is one thing we found in our in just couple years of Gen Z researches that email marketing is not dead for this generation. I mean, a lot of people think that this generation, they assume that this generation doesn't check the email, but they're actively checking email. So an email campaign from LinkedIn to people in this generation would work like where it's like, hey, you know, for the next week, every day, we're going to give you like a five minute task to do on your LinkedIn profile to make it better, that would work. And make sure to appeal to their egos, because every child of this generation has been told that they are made of gold. They are special. I love it. And I love the idea of of the college partnerships, I mean, for LinkedIn, to go into junior colleges or state universities, and work to make sure that not half of all students end up leaving with a profile, but 100% have them. They have a presence on campus, they have events they've put on together and sponsored together to help educate people like not only create an account, this is how you can use it. I mean, it's not going to reflect on next quarter's stock results. But it will like four or five years from now, I'm sure it'll do massive things. 32:29 And imagine if you started your LinkedIn profile, and like started recording the project, you worked on everything when you were 20, instead of when you started the company, when you're 30 or 35. I mean, just just imagine that like, how much more like meatier your profile would be? Yeah. And when I was searching for a job in the middle of a recession, no one was hiring. I was ashamed. And I didn't want to talk or share anything about it. Because I thought like it was a reflection on me as a failure. But especially with this generation, who has watched influencers, they understand the value of being authentic. And maybe it's offensive, but at least they see that there's value in showing your authentic self, someone who goes through and starts, like cataloging and showing what their experience is of like, hey, I'm job searching like this. Oh, man, I guarantee you would find a job so fast, when people are are seeing the hustle that you're putting in, and your control over media. 33:27 Yes, and the documentation of it and stuff like that. If I saw somebody who could really do that, and was hustling like that, I would immediately think, wow, they will hustle for my company if I hire them. Absolutely. And that's what you want. Like, that's the only thing I'm looking when I hire for someone, I just want to see drive. If you are driven and hungry, I can teach you anything about LinkedIn Ads. Generation is hungry to begin with. I mean, remember that, unlike Millennials, who grew up in a boom, this generation grew up in a recession. These are post 9/11 kids. I mean, they grew up in a time of war and recession, and they are hungry for work to begin with. I mean, these are kids that with millennials, they were like, oh, I'll take a year off and explore Europe and backpack and find myself and, and that we're not seeing that in Gen Z, like this is a generation who has entrepreneurial. 61% want to start their own businesses when they come out of high school. And it's amazing to me. In addition to that, they're valuing traditional education and they understand, okay, I want to start my own business, but I have a lot to learn to do that, which is a really interesting finding that they they're entrepreneurial, but value traditional education as well. It's not the tradition. It's not that entrepreneur, that millennial entrepreneur, like, Ah, forget this college. I'm just gonna drop out and I'm pretty smart. So I'll make it. Yeah. other entrepreneurs have done it. 33:48 Is there like something we pin on this generation that feels negative? Like do we talk about Gen Z like they are because I'm on the elder side of being a Millennial, but I very side with Millennials. And I was afraid to admit I was a millennial for years because everything I read was Millennials are lazy and entitled. And they eat too much avocado toast and they can't buy a house. Yeah, there's all of that too. And I'm with you, AJ, I'm a few years older than you. When you said when you graduated? I was like, I'm older, but yeah, I'm in this. I'm actually a microgeneration between we talked about this this microgeneration between Millennials and Gen X, where we didn't grow up with high speed internet in our homes. So we actually behave more similarly to Gen X than we do to millennials. And it's kind of an interesting microgeneration. And I wonder if there's gonna be some sort of microgeneration here now, that's like the COVID generation or something like that. I mean, they call that micro-generation the Oregon Trail generation because they're the kids that like, grew up with the big floppy disks where you're like sharing a computer at school with like three or four other kids and you're like walking across the country and dying of dysentery, shooting squirrels, you know, I ran out of ammo again. No, somebody stole my horse! My oxen. Haha! I loved Oregon Trail. 36:16 So I mean, I wonder if there's going to be a similar microgeneration here of like the kids who are the young adults who were trying to find a job during COVID. Yeah. Oh, I totally think there will be. I am so glad, just as an aside, I'm so glad that I was alive for COVID. Because if you would have told me like 10 years later, or 10 years earlier, like there's this thing that we live through, and the whole world stopped, and everyone started wearing masks like, I would not believe you. So I'm glad we experienced this. And for people to have their formative years during it. I can't even imagine what that's like. Yeah, I'm interested in too. And how this is affecting Gen alpha, which are the kids who are under 13, who today are for the first time like I'm sorry, you can't be in school. 37:05 Yeah, you can't be in school, you have to homeschool and we don't have a device for you, but figure it out kids. And depending on what here you are as an alpha, like, I've got four alphas in my house. And there's a whole year that they pretty much took off of school. Like it wasn't the same curriculum. Like, are we going to have a whole generation where this year knows nothing about geography? I think? Yeah, I absolutely think we will. I mean, that happened to my daughter at the end of last year, when we started homeschooling, I realized in the summer, because we did it like a math assessment for her like, Oh, these are the things you should have learned in third grade. And she missed math, basically, all the things that you learned at the end of third grade math, she just was really weak on them. And I was like I was there I was homeschooling you. I know you did this, I know you learn how to convert fractions. And yet, and yet she was really weak in it. And I think that there's gonna be a really big gap to between kids who were at a public school, where they were had to be home for a whole year, and the kids who started back this year, in private school, like there's gonna be a huge gap in terms of the kids who don't have just missed a whole longer period of time than the kids who were in private schools and able to go back in person because they were small class sizes. Oh, incredible. This will be so much fun to watch. I know we need to wrap up. We're out of time. But thank you so much for getting together, cooperating on the study together. This is amazing. I will say all the research we'll post a link to it, but it is posted on the Bixa Research blog. So if you want to see the the findings of the research, the major findings, it's all written out and handed like in a story. Yes. With bullet point findings so that you can actually go ahead and get some of this data and use it. And you know, if you're creating your own products, too, I mean, even if you're in marketing somewhere else, it's super helpful to understand what we're critiquing LinkedIn for here related to Gen Z. And I bet there are some similarities with your company, too. Oh, yeah. And if you're listening to this on the LinkedIn Ads Show podcast, we'll put it in the show notes below, taking you right to bixaresearch.com. So Sarah, thank you so much for doing this. This is amazing. I am in awe of information that you so effortlessly throw out there every time we talk. 39:28 Oh, and let me give you a freebie too! Okay, so if you would like a free chapter of Insta brain, you can go to bixaresearch.com. It'll be in the show notes or in the comments if this is being posted to LinkedIn bixaresearch.com/freechapter. And you'll get a free chapter of Instabrain, the new rules to marketing to Gen Z and you'll also get a PDF of the like top ways we do research for Gen Z. So if you're thinking about really getting to know this audience, which you should be because it is the last just living generation right now and they're entering the workforce and they contribute to $655 billion a year in purchase power. So you should be thinking about them as your customers, as your employees, everywhere. They will make you not go out of business! So, you know, when you are ready to do research, this PDF will tell you like the techniques that are really working for them right now. 40:24 Awesome. Thanks so much for running the study. This information was incredible. I know everyone listening you're gonna love the article. It the in depth research. The data behind it, Sarah was the mastermind and I was merely a contributor. Oh, he's not getting and giving himself enough credit for that. I never do. Also, thanks so much, Sarah. And thanks for everyone for watching slash listening. Oh, are you a waiver? I recently read a study on people who waive versus not waive on zoom calls at the end. Really? So what's the difference? Like what does it mean something about your personality? Yeah, it's like people, some people are just totally over zoom. And they're like goodbye. Yeah, so yeah, that was your little easter egg, then do your podcast random. Waiting bowl. Do you wave or do you not, you'll notice it about yourself next time you're on zoom. So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our banter on the findings from this research. I've got the episode resources for you coming right up. So stick around. Thank you for listening to the LinkedIn Ads Show. Hungry for more? AJ Wilcox, take it away. 41:45 All right. So here's some great resources. First of all, the link to the contest, bit.lylinkedinadscontest. All in lowercase. That's where you can go and submit to hopefully win this contest. Again, so excited to tell you about what you're going to win The article that LinkedIn published from Gyanda there about how it's fixing the ads over reporting, the links right down there in the show notes, you can go and read that for yourself. And then of course, the actual write up all the original research, you can find on bixaresearch.com. The link right to that blog post is down below as well. If you're just getting started on LinkedIn ads, or you have a colleague or someone who is check out our ads course on LinkedIn Learning the links right down below for that. And it is by far the cheapest and the most complete training on LinkedIn Ads that there is out there at the moment. So check it out. super inexpensive, again, a lot cheaper than hiring me to come and train your team. Definitely hit subscribe on your podcast player right now. Please give us a rating and I'm hoping you'll give us five stars. But if not tell us why. And then definitely leave a review. I'd love to give you a shout out here. With any questions, any feedback, any thoughts, topics, and anything you want to discuss. Hit us up at Podcast@B2Linked.com. And with that being said, we'll see you back here next week. Cheering you on in your LinkedIn Ads initiatives.

John: Okay. So Sarah, you said you participated in rodeos before but I thought only men ride horses in rodeos?Sarah: Yeah. Like 99.9% of the time, the men do all of the rodeo sports. There's like two sports for women and the rest of them are all for men.John: Oh.Sarah: When I said I wanted to do the traditionally male events, they said, "You can't do that. You're a woman. You have to do these other events that are not dangerous. They're safe."For example, the men do calf roping. You work with a baby cow, a calf that's about 100 pounds. The women do goat roping.And they work with a tiny goat that's about the size of a small dog. So I just always thought the difference was stupid. I don't want to do the easy, safe event. I want to do the difficult event and people were really surprised. And first, they said, "You can't." And I said, "I'm going to anyways."John: Wow!Sarah: And the first time I did the saddle bronc, they said, "Look, look, look. We got you a girl horse because you're a girl."John: Oh my.Sarah: And I thought, "Well, you didn't need to draw more attention to it. I just want to compete like everyone else."John: Right.Sarah: And my first time, I fell off the horse and I was really injured. And I was laying there and one of my friends came running out. And he said – I thought he was going to help me up and help me leave because I was really hurt. And instead he said, "Hurry up! You got to get off the – you get out of the arena because the next person wants to go."John: Oh, wow!Sarah: And I was really happy that he said that actually because he was just treating me the way he treated any other competitor. "Oh, get up. Be tough. You're fine."John: Yeah.Sarah: And I didn't want anyone to help me.John: So he didn't help you.Sarah: Right. And I was really glad that he was treating me like everyone else. And when you see a rodeo, you'll see that the women do events where they can dress really nice. They always wear nice clothes, beautiful hat. They even have earrings and things on.And when the men do events, they're doing events that they really have to use their muscles and get dirty, and I really liked doing those instead. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying I like to do the other one and I think that maybe other women like to do the other events, too.John: So do you think that the situation is improving? Are more girls joining rodeo now?Sarah: I don't think so. I think the sport of rodeo is becoming less popular. So I think in the future, there won't be more women in rodeo. There will just be fewer people in rodeo.John: Oh, I see.Sarah: Because the rodeo events, they're not very kind to the cows or the other animals. And as people get older, maybe they get more softhearted like me, and they don't want to make the animals get tied up or chase the animals. And so I think fewer people are interested in rodeo these days.

Welcome back listeners! This week on the podcast Mara is joined by Sarah Vega, a Newark (pronounced NORK) Native and cultivator of culture in the tri-state area! They discuss Sarah's recent birthday reflections and her advice for twentysomethings out there trying to figure it out. Sarah also talks about misconceptions about Newark and Dominican Republic that drive her crazy, how important it is to forgive yourself as person, & how our idols and inspirations can sometimes be shady and flipping that inspiration in an ethical way. Mara also tries to pronounce Newark like a local and fails miserably. The pair discuss how sometimes you have to make your own when there's not a place for you , which is how Dique! Media came to be. *DJ Khaled voice* THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE HEALTHCARE! So Sarah made her own product for her teeth and overall wellness to break through the scam of US healthcare system (or lack thereof). This episode is full of gems of wisdom from Sarah so you definitely want to TUNE IN NOW! Follow Sarah Vega on instagram: @_sarahvega_ Follow Dique! Media on instagram: @diquemedia Follow Lujo Toothpolish on instagram: @lujotoothpolish Keep up with all things Dique! Media & Lujo Wellness, LLC at diquemedia.com

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Smith, PT, DPT to discuss how women can cultivate their core confidence. Dr. Sara Smith specializes in assisting female leaders, healers & creatives re-activate their Core Confidence. Specifically, women who wear many hats and desire to leave a legacy with less burnout and greater personal joy.  In this episode, we discuss:   -How women focus attention on external approval and achievements/external successes.   -Why we need to be connected, aware and in tune with our pelvis.   -Messages the pelvis (and body) may be giving us that we are missing   -Core Confidence-what it is. why it is so important   -How does reducing urgency in daily life payoff- how the mental affects the physical body.   -How mental and spiritual Core Confidence and awareness of our Core can affect physical core strength.   Resources:    Dr. Sarah’s Facebook   Dr. Sarah’s Instagram   Dr. Sarah’s LinkedIN   Activate Your Core Confidence Workbook   Discover Your Joy Coaching Session w/ Dr. Sarah   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.    More Information about Dr. Smith: Dr. Sara Smith specializes in assisting female leaders, healers & creatives re-activate their Core Confidence. Specifically women who wear many hats and desire to leave a legacy with less burnout and greater personal joy.  Her unique approach focuses on connecting women back to their Core which holds authenticity, choice and immediate solutions so one can thrive both personally and professionally in all life situations. This activation is vital so that women leading their families, communities and companies can stay fully present in all situations in order to Communicate & interact authentically and calmly Finally feel their private life & success matches their professional success with greater freedom, confidence, peace, focus and direction. Flow through daily tasks and commitments with more focus, ease and an organized plan Improve physical strength & major health gains Live Wild & Bright- meaning! connected to our true, authentic, soul calling She has blended her professional expertise as a Doctor of Physical Therapy- specializing in Women’s Health and Chronic Pain Management, Certified Yoga Instructor & Certified Wellness & Life Coach. With every personal & group experience Dr. Sara Smith offers, she is dedicated to the goal of assisting women of all ages to step back into their Core Confidence.   Read the Full Transcript below: Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, Sarah, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on, Speaker 2 (00:04): Thank you so much for having me, dr. Litzy. It's glad to be here. Speaker 1 (00:08): Yeah. And so obviously I'm a physical therapist as are you, you have specialized in pelvic health and women's health, and then you have also kind of made that transition for at least part of your career into coaching, mainly other women from around the world. So before we get into the meat of the interview, I would love for you to share with the audience a little bit about your sort of career trajectory. Speaker 2 (00:40): Absolutely. Yes. So it's a, it's a little professional and it's a little personal, so it's the story tends to track with a little bit of both. I also went and got my yoga certification and that was actually the first thing that I did after physical therapy, you know, from, from physical therapy. A lot of that came because you know, in our profession we have a high turnaround and burnout ratio there at times. And I was a chronic fixer and helper and I was good at what I was doing to the point where I, you know, anybody came in and I was ready to, you know, help them with their issue. And so I went to my first yoga class, really just to chill myself out, get a little bit grounded and get, get real. And then from there it really almost overnight, it, it drastically shifted the way I was showing up and treating my patients at the time. Speaker 2 (01:42): I realized that kind of less was more, I realized that it was more important for me to listen instead of coming in with a plan and, you know, my own action sheet and really meeting people where, where we were, I think I was always empathetic, but it, it really enhanced that. And on top of that, I stopped getting sick. I was averaging, you know, a sinus infection once a month and just burned out already and young because I didn't want to, you know, you didn't want to fail having that syndrome. So really yoga kind of came first and then that solidified me for a while. I kept into the physical therapy world. I've always lived in rural areas in Virginia and I was on the Eastern shore of Virginia and I'm an only child. So I do like to be the only one doing something I like to be a little special. Speaker 2 (02:40): And, and so I realized nobody in the area was doing pelvic floor work. I had in all of my internships had some sort of connection to pelvic floor and women's health work. So I, I learned about it. I kind of knew about it. I didn't know if that was something that I wanted to get into. But I knew that it was a niche in the area that I was in. And so it was when I got into pelvic floor physical therapy work that I really professionally started to see this and, and chronic pain management has always been something that I just love helping people that have been to lots of therapists, physical therapists, and in there need assistance with that. But I was just seeing this mind body connection. I was seeing how with all of these individuals, and for some reason, I just happened to be working with a lot of leaders, professionals, directors, CEOs, you know, it just was kind of happening that way. Speaker 2 (03:41): Even some like rockstars lawyers, I don't know, Olympic swimmers, all these different people and stress was also happening mentally. You know, there were things going on either in their personal life or their professional life. That just seemed to be kind of also coming into what I was noticing in their physical body. So I was learning about it personally and just my own interest. And then I also was seeing it professionally and I was seeing when I started incorporating some of the yoga, you know, some of the mindfulness based practices and stress management breathing that I was getting better results. And I just am a result junkie. You know, I'm not interested in putting a patch on something. I want somebody to come back to me six or seven or 10 years later and be like, I'm still using what you did. So there was that. Speaker 2 (04:34): And then on top of that what I got into pelvic floor therapy, my started having children and my, our, our first child who's now seven was we found out at a very young age that he had an ultra rare genetic mutation. So it was de Novo. It wasn't for my husband or myself and severe speech apraxia. So I started getting, you know, deep into the world of executive functioning and,ureally learning more and more about kind of, I always loved the nervous system, but, you know, I became even more fascinated with how to manage that,uand, and work with it. And so that, those two things kind of happening simultaneously are what brought me into, into coaching. Umnd specifically working with female leaders, hecause that, I don't know, that's just like a deep within personal mission is I feel like women are here to make a major contribution. Speaker 2 (05:42): I feel like the time, the time is ripe, the time is now. But we've learned and write in it in a great way. We've learned from a very male dominated structure,uwhich doesn't always work for women. And,uit can, it definitely works. It's not that it's, you know, not working, but there, there are some things that need to slightly shift and,uI'm just, I really want to be able to contribute to women, being able to be in these leadership roles and do it without as much burnout do it without as much self-sacrificing,ufamily sacrificing community sacrificing. Uso yeah. Speaker 1 (06:32): Awesome. Well, thanks for that. Thanks for kind of letting the listeners get a little bit deeper into kind of who you are and why you do what you do, because it all leads into our discussion today. And it's, it's really all about as you say, why we need to be connected, why we need to be aware and in tune with our pelvis. So as a physical therapist, we can all agree that yes, we need to be in tune with that area. Everyone has a pelvis, everyone has that musculature and, and the functions of but coming from, I think your unique perspective of both physical therapist and coach and looking really beyond just the pelvic floor, which we should all be doing anyway. So, so give us your take on why we need to be connected. Speaker 2 (07:25): Yeah. You know, I've seen in, in the realm of success, leadership, entrepreneurship anybody who's, who's type a you know, th there's a lot of overthinking long to do lists. There's a lot of being up in our head, you know, w where do we go next? And I say, we, because this, you know, I've, you're only a great teacher if you've been there yourself, right. And, and are still in the depths of it. And so, you know, we th there's lots, that's constantly swirling up in our head, but we also know, and, and, you know, a variety of different resource research sources have shown us this, that we can't access all of the solutions to our biggest professional, personal life challenges. If we're in constant thinking mode all day long, not to mention, you know, roughly 80% of all thoughts are habitually negative, which is not very helpful for solving problems. And so the reason that I am so drawn to what I call, you know, well, it's not just me calling it a core confidence and getting people specifically into their pelvis and back into their body is, is reducing the overthinking so that we can access again, creativity, focus, productivity, you know, improved, sleep, stress, relieving, you know, hormone responses. You know, I could, I could go on and on. Speaker 1 (09:01): Yeah. And so you brought up the, the the words, core confidence. So can you explain what, what does that mean? Because I have a feeling it may mean a couple of different things to a couple of different people, but in the work that you do in helping people become more productive, improve their leadership, improve their life, what does that, what does core confidence? Speaker 2 (09:28): Yeah. I love how you said that, you know, it means something to, there's lots of different ways to describe it in there. There really is. You know, to me, and also the, the clients that I've worked with for many, many years now, it means freedom. It means expansiveness. It means seeking joy. It means effectively, you know, being effective at what they do. Meanings means also having more energy core confidence really is being able to go within yourself and access that wellspring of inner wisdom really access your, your yes or no. And a lot of times, and this is, this is actually comes from, from those in the research field. Core confidence also is a mixture of self-efficacy of hope of optimism and resilience. External confidence. I don't think we should be talking about core confidence without also touching on external confidence and external confidence is what the majority of us learn to, to seek after. Speaker 2 (10:43): And we're constantly seeking after it. The external confidence is, you know, does dr. [inaudible] Like me, or, you know, what I should be doing right now, or, you know, these are the, the, the dreams that, that others are doing. So this marketing strategy has worked for them. This app has worked for them, let me do this, let me, you know, follow this meal plan. And so, you know, we're constantly as humans chasing others, things that have worked for them. And, and we're very often, again, not realizing we're up in our head and we're not really checking in with the, the little voice that's like, that's kind of a waste of time. Speaker 1 (11:32): Yeah, totally. I, I always find that it's so much easier to look for that external validation and get our confidence from that external validation, then what we do than what we think we are doing. Does that make sense? Solutely yeah, so I, I mean, and, and we're all human and all humans fall into that trap. So can you kind of give us an example of how you might work with someone to help develop this core confidence and help to bring in more joy and help get them a little more grounded into themselves? Are there any sort of exercises or things that you do with people that you can give this as an example? Yeah, Speaker 2 (12:15): That's a, that's a great you know, I I'd say one of the main tips that I, that is probably ended up being my, my signature Sarah move,uhas been really, you know, so listening to somebody, I really love deep listening. I mean, I think when you start listening to someone, at least for me, I don't know this is, this is, h gift that I have is I start reading between the lines. Umnd actually I'm kind of diverting for a moment. A lot of times when I work with people, I don't do it over zoom. We don't do video. Umecause when you look somebody in the eye, sometimes it's hard to be a hundred percent truthful, you know, or again, you kind of fall into the, the external competence trap. Umnd so we do it all over the phone or, you know, with the video off so that I can really deeply listen. Speaker 2 (13:09): And what I'll do is, you know, if there's a belief in there for example, I was working with somebody the other day and she shared, you know, while we were talking about her personal life. And and she was like, you know, if I kind of keep having these, these, if I close the door on this relationship, I'm probably actually going to have to do a lot of hard work on myself to pick up the pieces. And what I asked her was, well, well, is that true? That working on yourself has to be hard. Speaker 1 (13:47): And when Speaker 2 (13:47): We, I call it, like, we've got to, we've got to go. I like going down the rabbit hole with somebody of like, really being like, why, why are we fearful about this? Like, let's, let's talk about it. Let's get to the root and let's shine the light on what, what the narrative is with this overthinking piece. Once we shine the light on it, half of the work is done because we've brought in awareness. And whenever you bring in awareness works time. Speaker 1 (14:18): Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, that you're right. Being able to listen and listen well is a gift, but it's also something luckily that can be practiced and can be worked upon as physical therapists. I think a lot of us, a lot of us are pretty good at listening. But when you work with, like you said, that chronic pain population, you really get, I think, a lot more in tune to what the person is saying. And you also learn how to ask those questions to draw out more thoughts. Speaker 2 (14:54): Absolutely. Yes. And here's the interesting thing that I've found. Okay. and, and I, a lot of this comes from like archetypes and youngian psychology is we have different aspects of our, of our psyche and of our personalities. Right. And a lot of times what you'll find is we learn these skills, we practice these skills professionally, but when it comes to the, behind the scenes for ourselves, we're almost like different people. I had a client the other day, you know, she is a director and has, has a large, very well-known board behind her. And and she's like, you know, if the board was to be a fly on the wall and kind of experience my personal life, they they'd be like what, you're not even the same person. Because suddenly things become matters of the heart. They're no longer again, the, the head, you know, so professionally relating people through this very well yet, we're not really sometimes having that, that advisor, that best friend, that we didn't even know we needed behind the scenes to help us hash out our own stumbling blocks. And that's where I think in, in leadership and entrepreneurship and being a CEO of, you know, your business and your life and trying to be healthy, wealthy, and smart, I think that's, we need that now. Speaker 1 (16:22): And why do you think that's so hard Speaker 2 (16:24): To, Speaker 1 (16:27): To confide in others of, you know, it's, it's a lot easier to say, Oh, you know, I, I didn't have any new patients this month. So, you know, I really w what do you think, how can I help? How can I get more patients? That's easy, right. To talk about our business and, and to talk about our our professional life. But why do you think it's so hard for people to confide in others on a more personal level? Speaker 2 (16:55): Hmm. I love this question. I really love it. Of course, I'm sure it's very multifactorial. I find that I don't, you know, I don't have any research on this, but I find that if you start looking back even into it and not like massively, but you start looking back into childhood, you know, where a lot of habitual patterns are formed and thought patterns are formed. A lot of times you'll see, you'll see trends there, but, you know, one vein of research shows that about half of all CEOs, those at the top are experiencing loneliness and loneliness in the sense that, you know, there has to be a level of healthy ego and confidence, right? B core confidence or confidence in order to want to succeed. You know, all sorts of people are teaching us out there and showing us that, you know, you gotta have some grit, you gotta have some resiliency if you wanna play this game. Speaker 2 (18:01): And it is a game. And so, you know, there there's factors of like, you can't trust everyone, right. If you have team members underneath of you traditionally that's really changing, I think, but traditionally we're taught, you know, you don't mix business and personal life. You don't do that. That's a no, no. Now you'll see that changing. And that's continuing to change because you know, many psychologists are beginning to study really resiliency and entrepreneurship and, and understanding more specifically how they're tied together, because it's, th that's really just a new field of, of understanding. He can't trust people, you know, and I think many have experienced, again, maybe it was in the past or more recently you know, you do share some of those personal moments and it might come back to bite you or suddenly the, the inner critic and other thought thought in the brain comes up and says, Ooh, that was not a good idea. You're probably that is going to backfire. You know, that could make you look weak. So I think it's very multifactorial. Speaker 1 (19:16): And I guess this is kind of where having someone, you know, outside of your direct business to have as a resource and to help you as a coach I guess I would, I'm assuming that that's where coaching comes into play, because you can kind of be that person to sort of help with the personal and the professional, because I can only assume that they're closely related. Speaker 2 (19:44): Right. They are way more closely related than people realize. And your professional self that like the way you act professionally is often different than the way you act and your personal life. Like, can you, can you relate to that? Speaker 1 (20:02): Yeah, of course. Okay. Speaker 2 (20:05): And so, you know, cause I, I, yeah, same thing for me too, but I'm always interested, you know, in what, what somebody, his answer would be. Speaker 1 (20:12): Yeah, no, there's, there's no question that, that we're a little different in our personal life than in our professional life. And, you know, it's funny to say, because I was having thoughts around that yesterday. Because you know, we're all human, right? Every once in a while, like we screw something up, we say something we didn't want to say we regretted afterwards. And yet you're vilified for being a human being. You're vilified for saying something that, yeah, like maybe what you said, wasn't the best thing to say, but you take ownership over it. You say, Hey, listen. Like, yeah. I mean, I, you know, I let my emotions get the best of me, which never ever happens in my professional life. Right. Right. In my professional life never happens. And yet all of a sudden you're demoted in the eyes of so many people, but all you did was you were just a human being and you said something, or you wrote something that you later like, ah, I can't believe I did that. And because it's not a podcast, we can't go back and edit it out. So I think that there is this, this weird kind of, if you start to melt the two together, you're going to be screwed. Speaker 2 (21:33): Yeah. It's a way or another, it's a belief. Absolutely. And I think that we need guidance to blend them appropriately, you know, because the answer is not, well, you'll see this as a marketing strategy now. Right. Where it's like, okay, show the behind the scenes and show yourself and be yourself and dah, dah, dah. Well, I think that there's always a, a middle ground to all of that, that we need to be aiming for. And again, it has to feel true to you, you know, like you have to get back into a state of checking in with yourself and not checking in with the head and the thoughts of like, okay, is this an alignment for me? And so, you know, in a lot of cases when you're blood, when you're, I like drawing on the professional self, like let's say, I might say, okay, what would professional dr. Speaker 2 (22:23): Litzy do when we're talking about something personal, because that's how the, the, the two aspects of you can really start blending together and start working together as a team and be like an integrated, whole healthy, beautiful person, right. Uwho can stay true to your individual values? You know, we get to like explore what those individual values are and being true to those,uin, in order to make it work for us, I've ever really cool example of a client who,ushe's in the hospital system and I'm pretty high up. And she was offered. We had been working for, I don't know, probably three to six months or something we'd been, she had been, and we were mostly working in the personal field, you know, but of course the professional always, always blends in. And she had been offered this incredible opportunity to lead this team. Speaker 2 (23:25): This was just in addition to her goals that she already professionally had for the year. And as she sat with that, and as I sat with that with her, she realized, you know, if this had been last year, I would have said yes to that. And I'm very flattered, but the truth is, is if I say yes to that, then all that I'm doing to take care of myself so that I can show up to meet my professional goals is actually going to be derailed. And so at that moment, it wasn't in alignment for her. And what was even better about that was then she was able to go to her boss and to communicate that I call it like, you know, communicating from the core, but communicate that not from up in the head like, Oh, no, I wonder what I'm doing. I hope, you know, hope I'm not really screwing this up, communicating it with authenticity, with crowdedness, with strength, right. With empowerment. And, you know, her superior was like best decision you ever made. I really appreciate it. Really championed to her now, how awesome would that be if we could have more of that in our small businesses and in all of our workplaces and all of our organizations, Speaker 1 (24:43): I mean, that's an ideal situation when the ideal situation, but I think it's hard when you're constantly kind of seeking out success and seeking to be quote unquote the best at what you do and to get that recognition and to build your business and to make more money. So you can live the lifestyle that you want to live and provide for your family or your friends or whomever is in your, your world. But how does, how does making these decisions, like you said, these sort of more grounded decisions where, where they are emotional versus making these decisions as strictly like pros and cons, like an intellectual pro and con list, you know what I mean? So how do you, how do you coach people in that tug of war? Speaker 2 (25:41): I hope I can answer the question of how do you coach people, because sometimes you just have to see it, you know, and experience it. But you know if you look, if you talk to anyone in the financial world, the stock market is emotional emotions drive everything. That's true. Right. And you know, if we're the faster, we're aware of that, the more tapped in that, that we're going to be. And so that's actually, what's happening is a, is a lot of times where we're making these leadership decisions, we're making these personal decisions when we're in a state of emotion. And often when we're, you know, emotions are coming from thoughts, right. You know, you know, the, the, the little wheel starts going and then suddenly, you know, we have these emotions with us. A lot of times you don't even know what the sensation is in the body, because we're, again, we're kind of more of in the head. Speaker 2 (26:36): And so when you can access, and what I do is often just really helping somebody with very challenging. Like I prefer the challenging situations, you know, where it's like, okay, why do I keep getting into this relationship? Why do I keep not, you know, being able to climb the ladder? Why is it I can't get, get know fit in the self-care pieces of it. And when we get to the root of it, a lot of times it's because things are happening in an emotional realm. And we've got to be aware of that, go down the rabbit hole of the actual, like fear and worry. And why, like, why are we responding the way we're responding? Why are we doing that? And then once you get to that, then you can actually get to the clarity piece where you get the clouds and the, you know, the fog out from your face. Right. You can go, okay, pro this con this dah, dah, dah, dah. Okay. Now I've got my marching orders go. And I, I don't know about you, but I like marching orders. I like to know the next step. Speaker 1 (27:37): Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think, you know, a lot of people who are in leadership positions or who are going out to be that entrepreneur, their dreams, like you are a type a person. I think you are a lot of just pros and cons. But I do think that the emotional segment of things does have to come into play because if your pros and cons from a very sort of robotic sense is, is okay, I guess, but then how is it going to make you feel, how is it going to affect your life? Are you going to be happy with your decision? Are you doing something because you feel pressure to do it because you have to do it, quote unquote. So I think being able to tap into that core confidence in that and your core values in order to help you make decisions is important. So it's like, I don't want to be on either pole, like purely emotional, purely cerebral, but you want to have, you want to be able to kind of get in there and go down that rabbit hole, which is not easy and takes a lot of self-awareness. Speaker 2 (28:44): Yes, no, it does. And that's why it usually takes a guide. Yeah, exactly. It really does. It takes a guide and you know, again, kind of that core confidence model that was not created by me, but having self-efficacy hope, optimism and resiliency, you know, these are things with, with a lot of difficult situations that, that our, our brain just has not been able to figure out the answer to. We tend to go down on the scale of those things, right? We're not trusting ourselves efficacy. We're not feeling very hopeful about it now, fascinatingly enough, you know, those that are fixers and types day and, and, and leaders if we can't fix something, if we don't know the solution to it, we're going to avoid it Speaker 1 (29:25): Totally a hundred percent. So it was easier and it's so much easier. Speaker 2 (29:30): We are to, to help and to show up for others and to fix the things that we know we can fix. And so again, then you see an imbalance and often times it's with the most challenging things that dealing with, again, personally, or professionally that we don't want to talk about. One of my clients, the other day was sharing,uyou know, this situation just resolved, but she was like, you know, I have been sitting on this,uspace like this, this land and space for the last 10 years. And I didn't know what to do with it. Now, when we got to the root of it, it was actually extremely emotional because she's in a family owned business. And it was something that a family member prior to her set up and, you know, really loved. And so it, it, it, it was way too. She couldn't make the decision because of the emotions connected with it. Uyou know, but she was like, I've been sitting on this forever and just avoiding it because I don't know what to do. So I can think of 50,000 other things to spend my time doing. You know, you can fix the kids, you can fix your friends, you can bring it into your professional career. And then meanwhile, some of the, you know, the other aspects are, are, are missing. Speaker 1 (30:44): I know I, when I get into those, those bouts of, Oh God, I can, I like will. And it's what I'm doing right now, which is why, when you said that you could do so, so many things to avoid. I'm like redoing my bookshelves, I'm doing some shredding of papers. I'm like crazy with the home edit. And now everything's in a rainbow, you know, I've got a lot of plastic bins hanging out everywhere. That's what I do when I'm trying to like, avoid looking at deeply at other things, you know? So that's what I've been doing for the past couple of weeks is I have been like cleaning out. Like my doorman was like, are you moving? I was like, Nope, not moving. Just, just finding stuff to do around the apartment. Speaker 2 (31:30): Exactly. Just being a great, you know, leader in the liver of life. Speaker 1 (31:35): Yeah, exactly. Cause I'm like, well, you know, if you come home to a nice clean apartment, it's better for your head. You can concentrate more when, you know, I probably need to go dig a little deeper and see, why am I doing all of this? And I know it's not just from watching the home edit, although it's a nice show. I'm sure it goes a little deeper. Speaker 2 (31:56): Well, it does, you know, and I'm glad you brought that up, you know, your, your personal situation, because I think that that helps all of us so much, you know, it's always nice to know when we're not alone. Right. And but you know, one of the biggest things that I've found in doing this work for as long as I have is people say to me, yeah. You know, I just, you know, everything you do sounds really great. Like that sounds awesome. It sounds like it really be helpful for me. And like, I don't really think I will, but I don't really think I want to go there. Uand we think, again, we think it's going to be hard, right? Like I was mentioning the client, the client earlier,u Speaker 3 (32:40): I have found that, Speaker 2 (32:44): And I think this is just my personality, but it's like, we got to make this fun and we gotta make this. Or action-oriented we kinda got to get the show on the road. So it's like, you know, again, if, if we're, if we're trying to leave a legacy, if you're trying to, you know, be productive and not give up on the idea that we have, you know, have success, then we are in a state in our country and in the world where, where we, we, yes, we can all, you know, afford to sit down on the couch with the weighted blanket and the wine and the ice cream, you know, but, but I just don't believe that, that we can afford too much of that anymore. I really don't, you know, like I, I need, I really feel so strongly that like, I need everybody to be functioning at a high level and it, it can be fun. Speaker 2 (33:40): It doesn't have to be like, Oh gosh, I'm, I'm, doesn't have to be so stressful. Yeah. Or like annoying, you know what I mean? Like, nobody really wants to like, look at themselves and see their shortcomings. And it's not about that. Like anybody that's trying to tell you it's about that. Th that's probably just perfectionist behavior showing up. It's not about that. It's about like, you've got to tap into your greatness. And when I say your greatness, meaning like just our essence, like our purpose of being here on earth, like something greater than ourselves, we've got to tap into that. We've gotten away from that. You know, that, that radical act of self-love that that's not just let me go draw a bubble bath. You know, that that is radically like, you know, we're all beautiful and we're here to share something great. Speaker 2 (34:37): One of the, one of the most upsetting thing, NGS, m don't know if you've ever experienced this, but, you know, as a physical therapist, when somebody has, host a limb or their pelvic floor is not working and they're upset with, you know, they have prolapse and they're like, Ugh, Ugh, this uterus, or, you know, gosh, my arm just looks awful. Now that pains me to my soul because I'm like, Oh, you know, like, gosh, your body has done so many miraculous things. I understand. And I empathize why you feel that way, but it, it makes me sad. And one of the things that has made me sad and being, you know, an advisor and a best friend to, you know, leaders who didn't even know if they needed that. Um,e of the things that makes me sad is when somebody comes to me and they're willing to just for a second share, I don't know if I can keep doing this anymore. Speaker 2 (35:35): I've thought about just giving it all up and going back to a simpler way of life and the same sort of thing. It makes me sad. Cause it's like, no, no, no, no, no, we don't. We don't have to do that. Like, you know, you, we don't have to, we just have to find some balance, right? Like you said, we don't need to be on one extreme. We don't need to be on the other extreme. We need to be somewhere in the middle and finding that is like super, super small finite changes. It's not the giant crazy things that changes that we like to make in our lives that we, you know, we think are going to be the solution. Yeah. Speaker 1 (36:10): I, I agree a hundred percent. And I think on that note, because I could keep talking about this all day. It's sadly, I don't know if the listeners want to listen to it all day. I'll do. I think they might. But I feel like we could keep going on and on here. But that being said before we wrap things up, just a couple of other things, number one, what, what are some of the big takeaways, or if there's one in particular takeaway that you want the listeners to leave this conversation with? Speaker 4 (36:46): Wow. Speaker 2 (36:47): I wasn't prepared for that. Dr. Lindsay. There is what I would say. The big takeaway that I really hope everybody understands is that when we get out of our head a little more often and start listening to the messages of the body, start listening to the messages of within then we really activate that core confidence. We step into a more effective way of leading and living and that's available to everybody and it's time to take it. Beautiful. Speaker 1 (37:26): That's a beautiful takeaway. Now you're welcome. And then of course, the last question that I ask everyone is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to yourself right out of PT school, a newbie. Speaker 2 (37:42): Ooh. Oh, this is, this is a fun one. So when I was in PT school, I knew PT was going to be a jump jumping off point for me. Ubut I, I didn't feel confident in that. And so honestly, what I would have said to myself then is, you know, yeah, you're a little bit of a fish. Speaker 1 (38:06): Yeah. You're doing things a little bit differently Speaker 2 (38:08): And it's okay. Just own, own your worst, keeping you which I'm sure I've always been doing, you know, but, but really telling myself that and gifting that to myself, that it's okay. It all starts lining up just one step at one step at a time. Speaker 1 (38:25): Awesome. And where can people find you? So social media or what's the best way? Yeah. So the best to get in touch with you, Speaker 2 (38:36): There are just so many ways to get, to get in touch with me. Of course social media let's see Facebook and Instagram is dr. Sarah Smith official. I'm also on LinkedIn, dr. Sarah Smith. It is Sara without an H. Usually people always are putting an H on my name, which is like, Speaker 1 (38:52): Denise is a Sara without an H. So I am very well aware of it. Speaker 2 (38:56): Thank you. And then www dot dr. Sara, D R dr. Sarah smith.com awesome. And website. Speaker 1 (39:06): Perfect. And we will have all of those links up at the podcast website podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart.com under this episode. And you saw, you also have an activate core confidence workbook that dr. Sara has so generously given as a free gift. So if you go to www.dot dr. Sarah smith.com/core hyphen confidence, did I get it right? You did. Perfect. And again, that will also be in the show notes, if you want your free gift from dr. Sarah, which is very generous. Thank you very much for all of the listeners, go and grab it from the show notes. So Sarah, thanks so much. Like I said, I could talk about this forever. It'll turn into a therapy session and that's not what you're doing here. I will not take advantage of you in that way. Speaker 2 (39:57): We can, we can do it at that. Speaker 1 (40:03): Thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your knowledge. I appreciate it. Speaker 2 (40:07): Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you for having me. Speaker 1 (40:09): Of course. And everyone listening. Thanks so much. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts    

In this episode of Moments That Matter, Sarah tells leaders to put the diversity metric first, and don't be afraid to look for where barriers are being created that stop progress. Announcer 0:02You're listening to Moments That Matter, a special CXR podcast series, where leaders and telling professionals share their own experiences with varying aspects of discrimination and inequality. Hear on Moments That Matter, we are dedicated to creating connected conversations around specific moments. These are moments that matter. Nicole Wormley, Danaher 0:26Hello, everyone, my name is Nicole Wormley, and I have the privilege of leading diversity attraction and university recruitment for Danaher Corporation, I am pleased to have a quick chat with Sarah Smart, the Vice President of global recruiting with Hilton, we're taking part in a quick conversation on the CXR sponsored series called Moments That Matter where leaders connect to share an instance or two within their lives where they experience or witness a form of discrimination, or inequality, and had the realization that something in their lives or their work environments needed to change, a pivotal moment that matters for them. So Sarah, can you share a little bit about yourself and tell us about the moment that you decided to share with us today? Sarah Smart, Hilton 1:12Thanks, Nicole. Hello, everyone. I am delighted to be able to be here today. And to share in these conversations with the CXR community. A special shout out to Gerry and Chris and the entire team for creating this platform. It means a lot. So thank you, Nicole, it's a great question. I actually had to think through sort of all of the many moments that I have experienced in my life. And I'm sure that everyone here has as well. But I kept on going back to one thing and i think it's it's you know, I'm going to share a little bit of personal history here as well. So I was raised by two activists, they back them used to be called the hippies, sort of post hippie these would be the protesters out today. And in fact, I've had a couple of conversations with my mom about not going to protests during the time of COVID. And they were very early in my life, my family made the decision to move to inner city, Wilmington, Delaware, which is Delaware is the state that Joe Biden was the senator for back he was the senator during the time that time and they made the decision to move to Wilmington, Delaware, in downtown Wilmington. Because there was busing that was made available to children in downtown Wilmington to be bused to the suburbs to have access to better schools. This has been an issue that's actually come up in the election that has come up for Vice President Biden several times. My parents were not wealthy, they, my family was not wealthy, they spent the majority of their time and their money trying to make social change. In this on their side, on the side jobs, they were teachers. So just to emphasize how little wealth there was, at the time, being someplace where you could be bused to take advantage of great school systems was a huge thing for my family. So first through third grade, went to a local school, and then the busing started. And I remember going to the bus stop. And there was a sort of a period in our lives where we were the only white people within maybe, you know, white family within maybe a 10 to 15 block radius. Um, and I remember getting on the bus for my fourth grade, my first trip out to HB DuPont, which was in the suburbs of Delaware. And it was me and my brother, and we were the only two white people on the bus. And I remember getting off the bus and we were greeted by protesters. Um, and I didn't understand it. It didn't. I was I, I was on a bus with my friends, I was with people that I had grown up with that had gone to all of the classes that I had gone to at Lewis elementary school when I got off the bus and there were protesters, and they were telling us to go home. Um,

I follow Sarah on Instagram. Besides being a trail runner - because that's the kind of people I like to follow; she puts some really good stuff on Instagram. Her pictures are always amazing. But the coolest thing for me is her workouts and mobility exercises. I've incorporated a lot of what she puts on Instagram and it's made so much difference in my body! It's so awesome when people take the time to share like that!So Sarah is a California girl gone German. She's had the great fortune of running all over. In this episode we talk about some of her races and that one big goal race that's out there. We talk about what it's like being married to a military man. And we talk about being a running coach.She's awesome!!You can follow SarahTwitter - https://twitter.com/drtyrunnerInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/drtyrunner/CTS Coach - https://trainright.com/coaches/sarah-scozzaro/Leave me some feedback on Twitter or Instagram. Reach out and ask questions. Share suggestions.You can follow me:https://twitter.com/MIDAGEDRUNNERhttps://www.instagram.com/midagedrunner/You can follow The Social Run Podcast:https://twitter.com/SocialRunPodhttps://www.instagram.com/thesocialrunpodcast/Do share with someone!!

And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” The Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.”Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” And the Lord said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. - Genesis 18:1-33Pastor Kevin preaches over how God is a God of Wonders and the three assurances that could be found in uncertain times. November 1 Worship Guide

Todd: Okay. So Sarah, I see you eat soup every day at work. Why are you eating soup every day?Sarah: That's because I love to cook soup.Todd: So you make the soup?Sarah: Yes, it's very easy to make.Todd: So you cook it and then you just bring it to work everyday?Sarah: Yeah. I just make a lot on Monday and then I bring it to work everyday of the week.Todd: Oh nice. So how do you make the soup? What's your secret?Sarah: Well, I like to cook very easy. So I buy meat that's already cut up, usually, chicken and then some rice, usually brown rice and then I buy some vegetables. So after I bought the ingredients, I chop them up and I put them all together in water until boils and add some seasoning.Todd: Okay. So you say the water boils, so as soon as the water boils that's when you put in all the ingredients?Sarah: Yes, that's right.Todd: So you don't put in the ingredients before the water boils.Sarah: No. I guess, it's just easier for the water to be hot because then the vegetables and the meat cook a little faster.Todd: So how do you give the soup flavoring?Sarah: I usually add salt and pepper, maybe some garlic. And depending on the type of soup, either maybe some soy sauce or lemon juice.Todd: Okay. Do you put in the flavoring after you put in the ingredients or before you put in the ingredients?Sarah: Maybe after but usually, right about all at the same time.Todd: Okay.Sarah: So I just put everything in at one time.Todd: And then after you cook the soup, do you put the soup in the refrigerator? Do you let it sit outside?Sarah: I usually eat some right then, and I also put it in containers for the week. But I let it sit in the containers out on the counter for a while for it to cool before I put in the refrigerator.Todd: All right. And so, you don't put it in the refrigerator until it is cool?Sarah: Until it's about room temperature.Todd: Okay, nice. And then how do you heat it up? Do you heat it up in a pot or do you heat it up in the microwave?Sarah: In the microwave. It's the easiest.Todd: Yeah. Nice. So you make enough for five meals?Sarah: Maybe, sometimes. If I think I will get tired of eating it during the week then maybe I'll just make enough for three or four meals. But if it's some kind that I think is really delicious and I know I want to eat it everyday, then I'll make a lot.Todd: Well, if that happens, when you make the soup, you can make it for six or seven and give me a bowl.Sarah: Okay. I'll do that next time.Todd: Oh great. Thanks.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Haag to talk about exercise and urinary incontinence. This interview was part of the JOSPT Asks interview series. Sarah is the co-owner of Entropy Physiotherapy and Wellness in Chicago. Sarah was awarded the Certificate of Achievement in Pelvic Physical Therapy (CAPP) from the Section on Women’s Health. She went on to get her Doctorate of Physical Therapy and Masters of Science in Women’s Health from Rosalind Franklin University in 2008. In 2009 she was awarded a Board Certification as a specialist in women’s health (WCS). Sarah also completed a Certification in Mechanical Diagnosis Therapy from the Mckenzie Institute in 2010. In this episode, we discuss: The prevalence of urinary incontinence Is urinary incontinence normal Pelvic floor exercises Pelvic floor exam for the non-pelvic health PT Sports specific pelvic health dysfunction And much more Resources:  Entropy Physiotherapy and Wellness JOSPT Facebook Page JOSPT Journal Page  More Information about Dr. Haag:  Sarah graduated from Marquette University in 2002 with a Master’s of Physical Therapy. Sarah has pursued an interest in treating the spine, pelvis with a specialization in women’s and men’s health. Over the years, Sarah has seized every opportunity available to her in order to further her understanding of the human body, and the various ways it can seem to fall apart in order to sympathetically and efficiently facilitate a return to optimal function. Sarah was awarded the Certificate of Achievement in Pelvic Physical Therapy (CAPP) from the Section on Women’s Health. She went on to get her Doctorate of Physical Therapy and Masters of Science in Women’s Health from Rosalind Franklin University in 2008. In 2009 she was awarded a Board Certification as a specialist in women’s health (WCS). Sarah also completed a Certification in Mechanical Diagnosis Therapy from the Mckenzie Institute in 2010.  Sarah has completed a 200 hour Yoga Instructor Training Program, and is now a  Registered Yoga Teacher. Sarah looks at education, and a better understanding of the latest evidence in the field of physical therapy, as the best way to help people learn about their conditions, and to help people learn to take care of themselves throughout the life span. Read the full transcript below:  Read the Full Transcript below:  Speaker 1 (00:06:25): So, and hopefully it doesn't want to lose what we're doing here. We'll see. Okay. Going live now. Okay. Welcome everyone to JLS. PT asks hello and welcome to the listeners. This is Joe SPT asks the weekly chat where you, the audience get your questions answered. My name is Claire Arden. I'm the editor in chief of Joe SPT. And it's really great to be chatting with you this week, before we get to our guest. I'd like to say a big thanks for the terrific feedback that we've had since launching [inaudible] a week ago. We really appreciate your feedback. So please let us know if there's a guest that you'd like to hear from, or if you have some ideas for the show today, we're in for a very special treat because not only are we joined by dr. Sarah hake from entropy physio, but guest hosting [inaudible] asks today is dr. Karen Litzy who you might know from the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Dr. Lexi is also a new Yorker. And I think I can speak for many of us when I say that New York has been front of mind recently with the coronavirus pandemic. And I'd like to extend our very best wishes to everyone in New York where we're thinking of you. So I'm going to throw to Karen now. We're, I'm really looking forward to chat today on pelvic floor incontinence and exercise over to you, Karen. Speaker 1 (00:08:25): Hi everyone, Claire. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your giving me the opportunity to be part of J O S P T asks live stream. So I'm very excited about this and I'm also very excited to talk with dr. Sarah Hagar. Sarah is an educator, a clinician, and an author. She is also co-owner of entropy wellness and our physiotherapy and wellness in Chicago, Illinois, and is also a good Speaker 2 (00:08:56): Friend of mine. So it's really a an honor for me to be on here. So Sarah, welcome. Thank you so much. I was really excited that all this came together so beautifully. Yes. And, and again like Claire had mentioned, we're all experiencing some pretty unprecedented times at the moment. And the hope of these J O S P T asks live streams is to continue to create that sense of community among all of us, even though we can't be with each other in person, but we can at least do this virtually. And as Claire said, last week, we want to acknowledge our frontline healthcare workers and colleagues across the world for their dedication and care to those in need. And again, like Claire said before, a special shout out to my New York city colleagues, we are they are really working like no other. Speaker 2 (00:09:52): And I also want to acknowledge not just our healthcare colleagues and workers, but the scientists, the grocery store workers, the truck drivers the pharmacist, police, firefighter paramedics, they're all working at full capacity to keep the wheels turning around the world. So I just want to acknowledge them as well and thank them for all of their hard work during this time. Okay. So, like Claire said today, we're going to be talking about the pelvic floor, which is something Sarah loves to talk about because what I also, I also failed to mention is she is a certified pelvic health practitioner. So through the American physical therapy association. So she is perfectly positioned to take us through. And as a lot of, you know, we had, you had the opportunity to go onto Slido to ask questions. You can still do that. Even throughout this talk, just use the code pelvic that's P E L V I C, and ask some questions. Speaker 2 (00:10:57): So we do have a lot of questions. I don't know if we're going to get to all of them. So if we don't then certainly post them in the Facebook chat and maybe Sarah can find those questions in the chat below. And we'll try and get to those questions after the recording has finished. All right, Sarah. So like I said, lots of questions and the way the questions were, were written out, kind of corresponds quite well with maybe how you would see a patient in the clinic. So let's start with the patient comes into your clinic. They sit down in front of you. Let's talk about the words we would use in that initial evaluation. So I'll throw it over to you. Okay. So being a pelvic health therapist, obviously most people when they're coming to females, Things that happen in the pelvis, I like to acknowledge it, that there's a lot of things happening in the past. So I have Speaker 1 (00:11:54): Them tell me kind of what are the things that have been bothering them or what are the things that have been happening that indicate something might be going on? Like if something's hurting, if they're experiencing incontinence, any bowel issues, any sexual dysfunction. And, and I kind of go from there. So if the talk that's the title of the talk today includes incontinence. Continence is a super common issue that let's see in general might pop in. And if you would bother to ask there's actually, I think it's like one out of two people over 60 are experiencing incontinence of some kind. The answer is going to be yes, some, so you can start asking more questions. But starting out with what, what is bothering them is really what I like to start with. Then the next thing we need to know is after we vet that issue or that priority list of things that are bothering them in the pelvis, and it's not uncommon actually to have. Speaker 1 (00:13:00): So let's say they start with a discussion of incontinence. I still actually ask about sexual function, any pain issues, any bowel issues, just based on the innervation of the various, the anatomical arrangement of everything. It's not uncommon to have more than one issue, but those other issues might not be bothersome enough to mention. So it's kind of nice to get that full picture. Then the next thing we really want art. So there are times I've met women who come in and they're like, Oh yeah, you know, I have incontinence. And you're like, okay. So when did it start now? Like 25 years ago. Okay. Do you remember what happened then? Typically it was a baby, but sometimes these women will notice that their incontinence didn't happen to like four or five years after the baby. Hmm. So that's information, that's very help if they say my baby that was born six weeks ago, our interventions and expectations are going to be very different than someone who's been having incontinence for 25 years. Speaker 1 (00:14:05): So again, knowing how it started and when it happens, when the issues are happening, I just kind of let them, it's like a free text box on a form. Like just, they can tell me so much more excuse me. And when we are talking about things, we, I do talk anatomy. So when it comes to incontinence, I talk about the bladder and the detrusor, the smooth muscle around the bladder, the basically the hose that takes the urine from the bladder to the outside world. I do talk about the vagina and the vulva and the difference between the two. And then actually we do talk about like the anus and the anal sphincters and how all of that is is all there together and supported by the pelvic floor. Speaker 1 (00:14:54): Cause that's in physical therapy, it's going to be something with that pelvic floor or something. Drought, does it need to be more, more pelvic floor focused or does it need to be behaviorally focused, which is the case sometimes, or is it that kind of finding that perfect Venn diagram of both for those issues that the person's having? And let's say you're in a part of the world. One of the questions was what if you're I think this question came from Asia and they said, what if you're in part of the world where you have to be a little bit, maybe more sensitive around even the words that you use. I know we had gotten a question a couple of years ago about a woman in the Southern part of the United States that was from very conservative area. And do we even use these words with these patients? Speaker 1 (00:15:48): So what is your response to that? My response is that as healthcare providers, we are responsible, I think for educating people and using appropriate words and making sure people understand the anatomy like where things are and what they're supposed to be doing. However, definitely when I'm having this conversation with someone I want them to feel at ease. So like I will use the Ana vagina anus, anal sphincters Volvo, not, it's not a vagina, it's a Volvo it's on the outside. But then if they use different terms to refer to the anatomy, we're discussing, I'm happy to code, switch over to what they're most comfortable with because they need to be comfortable. But I think as, as again, healthcare practitioners, if we're not comfortable with the area, we're not going to make them feel very comfortable about discussing those issues. Right. Speaker 1 (00:16:43): And that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that. So now let's say you, the person kind of told you what's going on and let's, let's talk about when you're taking the history for women with incontinence, especially after pregnancy, are there key questions you like to ask? Yes. So my, my gals that I'm seeing, especially when they're relatively relatively early in the postpartum period, are the things I'm interested in is did they experience this incontinence during their pregnancy? And did they have issues before pregnancy? And then also if this is not their first, tell me about the first birth or the, or the first two birth. So the first three birth to really get an idea of is this a new issue or is this kind of an ongoing marked by so kind of getting a bigger picture of it. Speaker 1 (00:17:49): And then also that most recent birth we want to know, was it vaginal? Was it C-section with vaginal birth? If there's instrumentation use, so if they needed to use forceps or a vacuum that increases the likelihood that the pelvic floor went over, went under a bit of trauma and possibly that resulted in a larger lab. And even if there isn't muscles, it's understandable that things might work well, if it's really small and if it's still healing you know, different, different things like that. So understanding the, kind of like the recent birth story, as well as their bladder story going back. So you've met first baby or before that first baby so that we know where, where we're starting from. And the, the reason why I do that is because again, if it's a longterm issue, we have to acknowledge the most recent event and also understand there was something else happening that, that we need to kind of look at. Speaker 1 (00:18:58): So would I expect it all to magically go away? No, I wouldn't. There's probably something else we need to figure out, but if it's like, Nope, this onset happened birth of my baby three months ago, it's been happening since then three months is, seems like forever and is also no time whatsoever. It took 10 months to make the baby. So it's you know, if you tear your hamstring, we're expecting you to start feeling better in three months, but you're probably not back to your peak performance. So where are we in that? And sometimes time will cure things. Things will continue to heal, but also that would be a time like how good are things working? Is there something else going on that maybe we could facilitate or have them reach continence a bit sooner. Okay, great. And do you also ask questions around if there was any trauma to the area? Speaker 1 (00:19:56): So if this birth was for example, the product of, of a rape or of some other type of trauma, is that a question that you ask or do you, is that something that you hope they bring up? It's, that's honestly for me and my practice, something, I try to leave all of the doors wide open for them to, to share that in my experience you know, I've worked places where it is on it's on the questionnaire that they fill out from the front desk and they'll circle no to, to any sort of trauma in the past. Speaker 1 (00:20:34): Yeah. They just, they don't want to circle yes. On that form. So and also I kind of treat everybody like they might have something in their past, right. So very nonjudgmental, very safe place, always making them as comfortable in a safe as possible. And I will say that there's anything I can do to make you feel more comfortable and more safe. We can do that. And if you don't feel safe and comfortable, we're not doing this w we're going to do something else. Cause you're right. That it's always one of those lingering things. And the statistics on abuse and, and rape are horrifying to the point where, again, in my practice, I kind of assume that everybody has the possibility of having something in their past. Okay, great. Thank you. And now another question that's shifting gears. Another question that came up that I think is definitely worthy of an answer is what outcome measures or tools might you use with with your incontinence patients? So with incontinence, honestly, my favorite is like an oldie buddy, but a goodie, like just, it's an IC, it's the international continents questionnaire where it's, I think it's five or six questions. Just simple. Like how often does this happen? When does it happen? Speaker 1 (00:21:58): There's a couple of other outcome measures that do cover, like your bladder is not empty. Are you having feelings of pressure in your lower abdomen? It gets into some bowel and more genital function. Can you repeat that? Cause it kind of froze up for a second. So could you repeat the name of that outcome tool as it relates to the bladder and output? Oh, sorry. I see. IQ is one and then, but like I see IQ vs which renal symptoms, right? So there are, there's a lot of different forms out there. Another one that will gather up information about a whole bunch of things in the pelvis is the pelvic floor distress bins questions about bowel function, bladder function, sexual function discomfort from pressure or pain. So that can give you a bigger picture. I'll be honest. Sometimes my, the people in my clinic they're coming in, and even though I will ask the questions about those things, when they get the, the questionnaire with all of these things that they're like, this doesn't apply to me. I'm like, well, that's great that it doesn't apply to you, but they don't love filling, filling it out. So sometimes what I will go with is actually just the pale. Speaker 1 (00:23:24): Can you say that again? Please help me. Oh yeah. Oh, so sorry. The patient's specific functional scale where, where the patient says, this is what I want to have happen. And we kind of figured out where they are talk about what would need to happen to get them there, but it's them telling what better. Right. Cause I've had people actually score perfect on some of these outcome measures, but they're still in my office. So it's like, Oh, I'm so patient specific is one of my one of my kind of go tos. And then there's actually a couple of, most of these pelvic questionnaires finding one that you like is really helpful because, because there's so many and they really all or discomfort. So if you have a really good ability to take a really good history, some of the questions on that outcome measure end up being a bit redundant. Speaker 1 (00:24:26): So I like, and you know the questions on there, make sure people are filling them out. You look at them before you ask them all the questions that they just filled out on the form for you. Yes. Good. Very good advice. So then the patient doesn't feel like they're just being piled on with question after question and cause that can make people feel uncomfortable when maybe they're already a little uncomfortable coming to see someone for, for whatever their problem or dysfunction is. So that's a really good point. And now here's a question that came up a couple of times, you know, we're talking about incontinence, we're talking about women, we're talking about pregnancy. What about men? So is this pelvic floor dysfunction? Is this incontinence a women only problem? Or can it be an everybody problem? So it very much can be an everybody problem. Incontinence in particular for men, the rates for that are much lower. And typically the men are either much older or they are they've undergone frustrate removal for prostate cancer. Speaker 1 (00:25:33): Fleur plays a role in getting them to be dry or at least dryer. And then it's like the pelvic floor is not working right. That can result in pain. It can result in constipation. It can result in sexual dysfunction. It can result in bladder issues. So it's, so yes, men can have all of those things. In fact, last night we had a great talk in our mentorship group at entropy about hard flacid syndrome. So this is a syndrome with men where everything is normal when they go get, get tested, no no infections, no cancers, no tumors, no trauma that they can recall. And, but the penis is not able to become functional and direct. And with a lot of these men, we're finding that it's more of a pelvic floor dysfunction issue, or at least they respond to pelvic floor interventions. Speaker 1 (00:26:30): So having a pelvic floor that does what it's supposed to, which is contract and relax and help you do the things you want to do. If, if we can help people make sure that they're doing that can resolve a lot of issues and because men have pelvic floors, they can sometimes have pelvic floor dysfunction. Okay, great. Yeah. That was a very popular question. Is this a woman only thing? So thank you for clearing up that mystery for everyone. Okay. So in going through your evaluation, you've, you've asked all your questions, you're getting ready for your objective exam. What do you do if you're a clinician who does not do internal work, is there a way to test these pelvic floor muscles and to do things without having to do internal work? My answer for that question is yes, there are things that you can do because even though I do do internal exams, I have people who come to see me who are like, no, we're not doing that. Speaker 1 (00:27:31): So, so where can we start? And so the first one is pants on and me not even touching you pelvic floor, I wouldn't really call it an assessment or self report. So even just sitting here, if you, if you were to call me up and and this actually goes into, I think another question that was on Slido about pelvic floor cues. So there is actually then it seems more research on how to get a mail to contract this pelvic floor then actually females. But I would ask you like like this is one that my friend Julie, we would use. So like if you're sitting there and you just sit up nice and tall, if you pretend you're trying to pick up a Ruby with your PA with your vagina is not on the outside, but imagine like there's just a Ruby on the chair and you'd like to pick it up with no hands, breathe in and breathe out and let it go. So then I would go, did you feel anything and you should have felt something happen or not. So if, if you did it, would you mind telling me what you built? You're asking me, Oh my goodness. Oh yes. I did feel something. So I did feel like I could pick the Ruby up and hold it and drop it. Speaker 1 (00:29:04): Excellent. And that's, and that, that drop is key. Excellent. So what I would say is this is like like a plus, like a, I can't confirm or deny you that you did it correctly, but I like, I would have watched you hold your, like she holding my breath. Is she getting taller? Cause she's using her glutes. Did she just do a crunch? When she tried to do this, I can see external things happening that would indicate you're might be working too hard or you might be doing something completely wrong. So then we'll get into, I mean, you said, yes. I felt like I pick up the Ruby, but if it's like, Hmm, I felt stuffed, but I'm not really sure we would use our words because they've already said no to hands to figure that out. But again, I can't confirm it. People are they're okay with that. Speaker 1 (00:29:48): And I'm like, and if what we're doing based on the information you gave me, isn't changing, we might go to step two. If you can send in step two is actually something, any orthopedic therapist honestly, should not feel too crazy doing. So if anyone has ever palpated the origin of the hamstring, so where is the origin of the hamstring facial tuberosity? If you go just medial to that along the inside part get, don't go square in the middle. That's where everyone gets a little nervous and a little tense, but if you just Pell paid around that issue, tuberosity it's pretty awesome. If you have a, a friend or a colleague who's willing to let this happen is you ask them to do a poll of our different cues with that in a little bit. You say that again, ask them to do what to contract the pelvic floor. Speaker 1 (00:30:44): Okay. And again, figuring out the right words so that they know what you're talking about. We can talk about that in a minute, but if they do a pelvic floor contraction, you're going to feel kind of like the bulging tension build, right there may be pushing your fingers. You should feel it kind of gather under your fingers. It shouldn't like push your fingers away, but then you can be like, well, you could test their hamstring and see that you're not on the hamstring and you can have them squeeze your glutes and you can kind of feel the differences. The pelvic floor is just there at the bottom of the pelvis. So you can palpate externally, even through BlueJeans is a bit of a challenge, but if they're in you know, like their workout shorts for yoga pants, it's actually very, very simple. And, and honestly, as long as you explained to them what you're doing and what you're checking for, it's no different than palpating the issue of tuberosity for any other reason. Speaker 1 (00:31:36): And with that, I tell them that I can, it's more like a plus minus, so I can tell that you contracted and that you let go. That's all I can tell. So I can't tell you how strong you are, how good your relaxation Wells, how long you could hold it for any of those things. And then I tell them with an internal exam, we would get a lot of information we could, we can test left to, right? We can, I could give you more of like a muscle grade. So like that zero to five scale be use for other muscles. We can use that for the pelvic floor. I can get a much better sense of your relaxation and see how was that going and I can even offer some assistance. So so we have two really good options for no touching. Speaker 1 (00:32:19): And then just as long as we understand the information we might gain from an internal exam, we can, we can, the information we gathered from the first two ways, isn't sufficient to make a change for them. And then as let's say, the non pelvic health therapist, which there might be several who are gonna watch this, when do we say, you know, something? I think it's time that we refer you to a pelvic health therapist, because I do think given what you've said to me and you know, maybe we did step one and two here of your exams. I think that you need a little bit more. So when do, when is that decision made to reach the point of, they have a bother that I don't know how to address so we can actually go to like the pelvic organ prolapse. So pelvic organ prolapse is, is when the support for either the bladder, the uterus, or even the rectum starts to be less supportive and things can kind of start to fall into the vaginal wall and can give a feeling of like pressure in with activity the sensation can get. Speaker 1 (00:33:39): So then we have two options, which is more support from below with perhaps a stronger meatier pelvic floor by like working it out to hypertrophy. So like if, if I had someone who had that feeling when they were running and we tried a couple are lifting weights, let's go lifting weights. No, like I feel it once I get to like a 200 pound deadlift. Okay, well, let's see how you're lifting when you're doing 150 and let's take a look at what you're doing at 200 in fresh with your mechanics or what's happening. And if there's something that is in your wheelhouse where you're like, well, can you try this breath? Or can you try it this way and see if that feeling goes away? I'm good with that. And if the, that the person who's having issue is good with that. Awesome. But if you're trying stuff or the incontinence is not changing, send them to a pelvic floor therapist, because what we love to do is we can check it out. Speaker 1 (00:34:41): We're going to check it out. We're going to give some suggestions. And then my, the end of every one of those visits that I get from my, from my orthopedic or sports colleagues is I'm like, excellent. So you're going to work on this, keep doing what you're doing. Cause another really common thing is like, is I don't really believe that they can make a lot of these things worse doing the things that they're doing. And by that, I mean, they can become more simple MADEC, but in many cases you're not actually making the situation worse. So if the symptoms seem to be not getting better or even getting worse, doing the things they're doing, they go come back to the pelvic floor therapist. And then that pelvic floor therapist also has a responsibility that the things I'm asking them to do, isn't helping them get there. Speaker 1 (00:35:29): You can try something a little more intense, still not helping. Then that's when I actually would refer for females, especially with like pelvic pressure. So Euro gynecologist for an assessment in that regard. Yeah. So I think I heard a couple of really important things there. And that's one, if you are the sports therapist or the orthopedic physiotherapist, and you have someone that needs pelvic health support, you can refer them to the pelvic health therapist and you can continue seeing them doing the things you're doing. So just because they're having incontinence or they're having some pressure, let's say it's a pelvis, pelvic organ prolapse. It doesn't mean stop doing everything you're doing. Speaker 3 (00:36:12): Okay. Speaker 1 (00:36:15): Correct. Okay. Yeah. It may mean modify what you're doing. Stop some of what you're doing, listen to the pelvic floor therapist. And I'm also seeing, well now we're, aren't we this great cause we're creating great team around this, around this person to help support them in their goals. So one doesn't negate the other. Absolutely correct. And I, and I think too often even, even within the PT world is people start to get kind of territorial. But it's not about what each one of us is doing. It's that person. Right. so telling them to stop doing something, especially if it's something they love it seems like a bad start. It's like, okay, let's take a look at this. Tell me what you are doing. Tell me what you want to be doing. Tell me what's happening when you do that. And let's see if we can change it. Speaker 1 (00:37:02): Cause like I said, like the, the other, that being something they're going to make worse and worse and worse is if symptoms get worse and worse and worse, but they're not causing damage, they're not causing, I mean, what they're doing and say leaking a bit. Got it. And now I'm going to take a slight detour here because you had mentioned pelvic organ prolapse. You had mentioned, there comes a time when, if that pressure is not relieving, you've tried a lot of different things. You would refer them to a urogynecologist now several years ago. They're so you're, you're a gynecologist. One of their treatments might be surgery. So there was pelvic mesh sweats. It's hard to say pelvic mesh surgery that years ago made some people better and made some people far, far worse with, with some very serious ramifications. So can you talk about that pelvic mesh mesh surgery and where we are now? Speaker 1 (00:38:04): Oh, the last bit cut out a little bit. So the pelvic mess, mess surgery and, and Oh, the most important part and kind of where we are now versus maybe where we were, let's say a decade ago or so. Awesome. Yeah. So, so the pelvic mesh situation certainly here, I think it's not a universal problem. I think it's a United States problem is if you're at home during the day, like most of us are now you will see law commercials, lawyers looking for your business to discuss the mesh situation on what's happening is there was there were, it was mesh erosion and the resulting fact that that was a lot of pain because they couldn't just take it all out. And it was several women suffered and are still sad. Speaker 3 (00:38:55): Mmm. Speaker 1 (00:38:55): But that was from a particular type of surgery with a particular type of surgical kit, which thankfully has, was removed completely from the market and isn't being used anymore and mesh surgeries, I would say at least for the last five to 10 years, haven't haven't been using that and mesh surgeries are being done with great success in resolving symptoms. So I think it's important that if a woman isn't responding Speaker 3 (00:39:27): Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:39:30): Well changing their breath or making a pelvic floor or changing how they're doing things is to have that discussion with the Euro gynecologist because they do have nonsurgical options for super mild prolapse. There are some even like over the counter options you can buy like poise has one where it's just a little bit of support that helps you. Actually not leak because if you're having too much movement of the urethra, it can cause stress or it can be contributing to stress incontinence. But so there's some over the counter things or there's something called a pessary, which I think about it. Like I'm like a tent pole, but it's not a pole. It's a circle don't worry or a square or a donut. There's so many different shapes, but it's basically something you put in the vagina and that you can take out of the vagina that just kind of holds everything back up where it belongs, so it can work better. Speaker 1 (00:40:21): And that it's not awesome. But there are also people who are like due to hand dexterity, or just due to a general discomfort with the idea of putting things in their vagina and living them there that they're like, no, I'd rather just have this be fixed. So, so there are, it's not just surgery is not your only option. There are lots of options and it just depends on where you want to go. But with the surgery, if that's what's being recommended for a woman, I really do. Some women aren't worried at all. They've heard about the mash, but they're sure it won't happen to them, but there are when we're still avoiding surgery, even with significant syndromes, because they're worried about the mesh situation. And I would still encourage those women to at least discuss us, to see if that surgeon can, can educate them and give them enough confidence before they move forward with the surgery. Speaker 1 (00:41:18): Because the worst thing I think is when I had one patient actually put it off for years. Not, not just because of the mesh because of a lot of issues, but the first time the doctor recommended it, she had a grade four prolapse. Like that means when things come all the way out. And she it was so bad. Like she couldn't use the pastory okay, so she needed it, but she avoided it until she was ready and had the answers that made her feel confident in that having the surgery was the right thing to do. So it might take some time and the doctor, the surgeon really should, and most of them that I've met are more than happy to make sure that the patient has all the information they need and understand the risk factors, the potential benefits before they move forward. Speaker 2 (00:42:03): Excellent. Thank you so much for that indulging that slight detour. Okay. Let's get into intervention. So there are lots of questions on Slido about it, about different kinds of interventions. And so let's start with lot of, lot of questions about transverse abdominis activation. So there is one question here from Shan. Tall said studies in patients with specific low back pain do not recommend adding transverse abdominis activation because of protective muscle spasm. What about urinary incontinence in combination? What do you do? So there is a lot on transfer subdominant as you saw in Slido. So I'll throw it over to you and, and you can give us all your share your knowledge. Speaker 1 (00:42:55): Okay, well, let's all do this together. So I don't know how many people are watching, but if we just sit up nice and tall and I'm going to give a different cue for the pelvic floor. So what I want you to squeeze, like you don't want to urinate, like you want to stop the stream of urine. Okay. So as we're pulling that in anything else other than the underneath contract, what did you feel Karen? Speaker 2 (00:43:24): Well, I did feel my TA contract. I felt that lower abdominal muscle wall started to pull in. Speaker 1 (00:43:32): Yes. So, so the, the way I explain it is that the pelvic floor and the trans versus are the best is to friends. And this makes sense when you think about when you remember the fact that the pelvic floor, isn't just there regarding like bowel bladder and sexual function. It's one of our posture muscles. So if we're totally like, like slacked out and our abs are off and all of that, our pelvic floor is pretty turned off as well. And then if I get a little bit taller and like, so I'm not really clenching anything. Right. But this is like stuff working like it should, my pelvic floor is a little more on, but not, I'm not acting. It's just but then I could like, right, if I'm gonna, if I'm expecting to hit, or if I'm going to push into something, I can tend to set up more and handle more force into the system. Speaker 1 (00:44:21): So I like to think about it in those in those three ways, because the pelvic floor, isn't just hanging out, down there and complete isolation it's, it's part of a system. And so in my personal, like emotional approach to interventions is I don't want them to be too complicated. So if I can get someone to contract their pelvic floor, continue to breathe and let go of that pelvic floor, then we start thinking about what else are you feeling? Cause I don't know that there's any evidence that says if I just work my transverses all the time, my pelvic floor will automatically come along for the ride. So a great quote. I heard Karrie both speak once at a combined sections meeting and she goes, your biceps turn on. When you take a walk, it's not a good bicep exercise. So just the fact we're getting activity in the pelvic floor when we're working other muscles, what's supposed to work. And also if you want to strengthen that muscle, you're going to need to work out that muscle. Speaker 1 (00:45:26): And that makes a lot of sense and something that people had a lot of questions around where we're kind of queuing for these different exercises. And I really love the can. You've made it several times comparisons to other muscles in the body. So can you talk about maybe what kind of queuing you might use to have someone on? I can't believe I'm going to say this turn on and I use that in quotes because that's what you see in, in a lot of like mainstream publications for, for layman. So it might be something that our patients may see when they come in. So how do you cue that? To, to turn on the pelvic floor? So honestly I will usually start with floor and I do if I'm able to do a public floor exam, that's usually, again, a lot more information for me, but I'm like, okay, so do that now. Speaker 1 (00:46:27): And I watched them do it or I feel them do it and I'd be like, Oh, okay. What did you, what did you feel move? And I start there. And then I always say it's a little bit, like I get dropped into a country and I'm not sure what language people are speaking. So sometimes excuse me, one of the first cues that I learned was like, so squeeze, like you don't want to pass gas. Okay. So everybody let's try that. So sitting squeeze, like you don't care and you got taller. So I think you did some glutes. Speaker 1 (00:47:00): It's like, OK. So like lift, lift your anal sphincter up and in, but activating mostly the back part. So if you're having fecal issues, maybe that's a good place to start, but most people are having issues a little further front. So then we moved to the, can you pick a upper with your, with your Lavia? I had a, I learned the best things for my patients. One woman said it's like, I'm shutting the church doors. So if you imagine the Lavia being churched doors, we're going to close them up. And that, that gives a slightly different feeling. Them then squeezing the anal sphincter. Now, if you get up to squeeze, like you don't want to like pee your pants, like you want to stop the stream of urine. That will activate more in the front of the pelvis. Look, men who are like if it gets stopped the flow of urine, I wouldn't be here. Speaker 1 (00:47:57): So what else do you get? What's really cool is in the male literature. So this is a study done by Paul Hodges is he found that what activated the anterior part and the urinary sphincter, this rioted urinary speaker, sphincter the most for men. What a penis or pull your penis in to your body now for women. So when I was at a chorus and it's like, so let's, let's think of like other cues and other words, but even if, so, I don't have a penis this fall that probably don't have a penis. Even if you don't have a penis, I want you to do that in your brain, shorten the penis and pull it in. Speaker 1 (00:48:42): And did you feel anything happen? Cause we do have things that are now analogous to the male penis, if you are are a female. So I'll sometimes use that. Like I know it sounds stupid, but pretend to draw on your penis and it works and it does feel more anterior for a lot of people. So I'll kind of just, I'll kind of see what's, like I said, sometimes it's like the 42nd way of doing it that I've asked them to do where they're like, Oh, that, and you're like yeah. So then also just another, it's a little bit of like a little bit of a tangent, but so as you're sitting, so if you're, if you're sitting I want you to pick the cue that speaks most to your pelvic floor, and I want you to slouch really, really slouch, and actually to give yourself that cue and just pay attention to what you're feeling. So when you squeeze, give yourself that cue, breathe in and breath out and then let go, we should have felt a contraction, a little hole and a let go. Now, the reason why I say breathe in and breathe out is if you breathe in and out, that's about five seconds and also you were breathing. Cause another thing people love to do when they're trying to contract their pelvic floors, just basically suck it in. Speaker 1 (00:50:10): And so that's, that's not great, but we want to feel the contraction and we want to feel it, let go. And that's super important. I think that was another question on the Slido is that yes. For any muscle we're working, you should be able to contract it and let it go. There's not a muscle in our body where I just keep it contracted. It's going to do much. It might look great. Eventually, but like I couldn't get my coat on, like getting a drink of water would be a little weird. It's not very functional muscles have to relax so that they can contract. So that's a big, yes, it's just as important that the contraction pelvic floor that cue and we felt where it happened, not tall, like, like you're sitting out at a restaurant and you just saw someone looking at you and you're like, Oh, what are they looking at? And then you're going to do the exact same cue and you're gonna breathe in and breathe out and let it go. Speaker 1 (00:51:07): And then did it feel different than menu or slouch that it did it change position? I feel like Karen's Miami. It feels different. Now what I want you to do is if you can, depending on how you're sitting really give me like an anterior pelvic tilt, really happy puppy and then do the exact same thing and then let it go. And so again, some more EMG work from, from Paul Hodges is that when you're in a posterior pelvic tilt, you tend to activate the posterior portion more, which is fine. And if you're not having problems in the front, if you're having problems activating and maintaining continence in the front, actually increasing that lordosis can favor the front a bit. So this is, that's really awesome when people can feel that difference. Because I want you to think about, if you start to leak on your fourth mile of a half marathon, there's no way, no matter how awesome you are, but you're going to be able to squeeze your pelvic floor for the rest of that race. Speaker 1 (00:52:15): Like there's just, there's no way. But sometimes if, because remember your pelvic floor is still doing its thing while you're running is if you're like, well, hold on, when you're at your fourth mile, are you starting to get tired or hopefully not if it's a half marathon, but you know, like is something changing and how you're using your body. And can you, when you get to that point, remember to stay tall or lift your tail a little bit, or is there a cue or something they can change that will help them favor the front instead of going about four steps with the contracted pelvic floor and then losing it anyway. So there's, there's a lot of different ways you can actually make that your intervention for the issue you're having and then let's just get it functional. Perfect. And since you brought up running a question that's been, got, gotten a couple of likes on Slido is how would you approach return to running after pregnancy? Speaker 1 (00:53:15): Do you have any tips on criteria for progress, timeframe and a recreational runner versus a full time athlete? Because I would think the majority of physiotherapists around the world are seeing the recreational runner versus the professional or full time athlete. So first, how would you approach return to running any tips for progress? So that's going to be after pregnancy, sorry. After pregnancy. Yeah. So this is where I was really excited. So just last year I'm going to say her name wrong, but Tom goom Gran Donnely and Emma Brockwell published returned to running postnatal guidelines for health professionals managing this population. And the reason why I was super excited is because even though it was just published last year, it's the first one. There was definitely a lot of emotion and feelings about, about women getting back into sport after having a baby, but to be perfectly Frank, there's very few actual solid guidelines for recreational or others. Speaker 1 (00:54:30): So I have not personally had a child, but I will tell you of all the women I've seen over the years, basically doctors are like, it's been six weeks ease back into it, see how it goes. I'm not really even mentioning if you have a problem come back so we can figure it out. It's just kind of like good luck with that. And as a result, what happens is a lot of women don't get back into exercise or they get back into exercise and and kind of freak themselves out because stuff feels different. So to get back to the question of what do I do, actually this this guide from Tom and team really, really helpful. I think, and, and it's just basically it's it does have a series of exercises that I've actually started to use with my postpartum moms to go like, look, if you can do these things without feeling heaviness, you're good. Speaker 1 (00:55:30): You're good to start easing back into your running program, but get up, get walking because I'm going to post Sandy Hilton and like, you can't rest this better, like just waiting, isn't going to make it all go away. But it can also be deceiving because again, with polo, you don't feel that heaviness and you don't leak. And so I'm just going to stay right here where everything is fine. So that's obviously not a good option longterm option for a lot of reasons. So, so what do I do? I do look at the patient's goals, their previous running history, and if they're having any options I recently had a patient who she was runner exercise or sr after baby number two for a bit, some feeling of happiness that got completely better, baby number three came along. So I saw her a bit while she was pregnant because she got, I think two thirds of the way through pregnancy before she started to feel that heaviness. Again, she was still running, Speaker 1 (00:56:38): Tried to see if we could change that feeling while she was running. And she could until about the, when did she start? I think she didn't stop running to her 35th week, which is pretty impressive. But then she wanted to do a half marathon. I think it was just three months postpartum. Right. So this is like going from having baby to running 13. You think that a lot of people would probably feel that was too soon, too much too fast, but she was able to do it completely symptom-free. So as she was training and she was really fast, she was timing it so that she could get back in time to breastfeed. Like I was like, Oh my gosh, like I, that would disqualify me. Like, there's no way I could run fast enough to make that happen. But she was able to, to work it out where she could perform at her level without symptoms. And I was really happy that I was able to support her in that she did all the hard work. For general people recreational, where you a runner before, or is this completely new and are you having any symptoms and is there any thing you're worried about? Again, a lot of women are worried about giving. Speaker 1 (00:57:53): It's actually really hard to perhaps to give yourself one baby babies are a great way to do it. But that's like the risk factors I look up for something else a couple of years ago, I haven't looked recently, but like you really have any prolonged lifting. So not like your CrossFit three days a week, but like your, your physical labor for eight, eight hours, 10 hours a day every day could eventually do it also having babies. So like once you get to every baby increases your risk of pelvic organ prolapse, which makes good sense. And that, and that is what it is. So kind of looking at what are their risk factors, are there any, and letting them know that if they feel it more, it doesn't mean they made it worse. They just made it more symptomatic. Got it. Great. Speaker 1 (00:58:40): All right. So we have time for maybe one or two more questions, and then I'm going to throw back to Claire. Cause we're coming up onto an hour here, maybe time for one more it's so w what am I going to ask? I think I'm going to go with the gymnasts I work with all believe it's normal to leak a little urine during training or competition. And this is something we talk about a lot. It might be common, but is it normal? You already gave me the answer. What is it, Karen? No, no, no. And so, yeah, so the, the short answer for that is no. Or I agree with the question where it is very, very, very common, and it is still, I would say, not to leak urine. Unfortunately, so there's any researchers out there who want to get together. Speaker 1 (00:59:26): Let me know. We haven't, we have information on athletes and incontinence, but mostly it's prevalent that it happens a lot and gymnastics and dancing and volleyball. There's, there's even some swimmers who have it, right? So there's, there's incontinence across the spectrum, which basically tells me, yep. People have incontinence. Some of the some of the sports are more likely to have urgent continents. A lot of them though, we're looking at stress incontinence, however, for none of the athletes, have, we really had a great study that says, this is what we're finding. We're thinking, this is the cause of this incontinence. And we certainly haven't gotten to the point where it's like, and this is what we should be doing for these women in particular. So I'm, I'm pretty curious as to what we would have to do as, as a profession, as, as a team with researchers to figure out what do we need to look at in these athletes, especially the female athletes, because most of these are also they've never had babies, right? So a lot of these athletes are the liberos. And so we can't, we can't blame them. There's something with how things are working. That seemed to be the situation it's not necessarily trauma or anything like that. So what do we need to look at? What do we think is happening? Can we measure it and assess it? And then can we get an intervention? Speaker 1 (01:00:56): My brain, obviously, something isn't working as well as it could. So could something like that improve their performance, even I don't, I don't know. I'd like to think so. Yeah. That would be distinct study. Yeah. But we ultimately don't know. So if anyone has any ideas for studies or doing studies, let me know, because I can't wait to read them. But I think maybe the first step is to let coaches and parents and young gymnast know very common. Don't be ashamed. Don't let it stop you from doing what you want to do. But also don't just ignore it. Maybe we can figure this out. Speaker 2 (01:01:30): All right. One more question with a short answer, if you can. So, and I'm going to ask this question because I feel like the person who posted this I think posted this in earnest. So that's why I'm asking, this is the last question. So a female patient age, 20 years still bedwetting from her childhood, otherwise she is normal, no incontinence. So other than this, just while sleeping, she tends to urinate any thoughts on this or any place you can direct this. Speaker 1 (01:02:04): Yeah. So I did, I was like, Oh, great question. And I did actually do a little research for this specific question. There's a lot of reasons why nocturnal enuresis, which is what bedwetting is called in the literature happens. And I think it's really important. So I don't know what kind of tests or studies this person has had done or what other issues they may be having. So things like sleep apnea is is something that could be related if there's any medications, any sort of diuretics, any kind of sleeping medications. Again, the fact it's kind of carried on since childhood, I, I would really wonder about how, how is the bladder functioning? The fact that it's working fine throughout the day makes me wonder what's changing at night. And I did find a study where it talked about when they look compared adolescents or adults who were bedwetting to people who weren't, they did have like detrusor overactivity. So like basically like an overactive bladder that they could see on the testing. So I would, I would really encourage this person to find a urologist that they trust if they haven't already and really to maybe investigate some of those other, other factors that could be contributing so that they can get some better sleep and not have that problem anymore. Speaker 2 (01:03:28): Excellent. Excellent. Oh, okay. Claire says we can go for one more question. So I'm going to listen to the boss here. Speaker 1 (01:03:36): And, Oh boy, are you ready? Because this is a question that did kind of get a lot of thumbs up. Okay. So we spoke about Speaker 2 (01:03:44): Briefly before we started. Speaker 1 (01:03:47): So let's see treatment of nonspecific, pelvic girdle pain, not related to pregnancy, which strategy with no susceptive pain mechanisms and which strategy with non nociceptive pain mechanisms would you incorporate with this patient? Okay. So I would say in the clinic, it's, it can be pretty hard. Like, I don't know how I would distinguish being nociceptive and non nociceptive or what even like non nociceptive might be if we're talking more central issues or stuff like that. I don't, I don't know. But honestly I would just look at, so in Kathleen's Luca has a great book about looking at the different types of pain or the different categories of pain and the most effective medications for it. Right. So we're really good in pharmacology. Like if you had this inflammatory process and, and inflammatory and anti-inflammatory should help, if you're having neuropathic pain, you want a drug that addresses that when we get into like physical therapy interventions, what's really cool is exercise is in all the categories. Speaker 1 (01:04:59): And it's one of the things we have the best evidence for. So regardless of pelvic girdle pain in pregnancy or not pregnancy, and regardless of how it may have been labeled by somebody else is I would, I would mostly want to know when did the pain start? Is there anything that makes it better? Anything that makes it worse and see if I could find a movement or change something for that person. Or that made me sound like I was going to do a whole lot of work. If I could find something for that person to change for themselves to have that hurt less and have the I tend, I would tend to keep it simple, mostly cause in the clinic again, we could do a lot of special tests that might say, Oh, Nope, they definitely hurt there, but it's still, if we're looking at what's going to be an effective intervention, that that patient is going to tell me what that is. Speaker 1 (01:05:54): Sorry. It would help a fire mute myself. So looks like we have time for one more. And I, I really, Claire was not clarity did not pop up yet. So we've got time for one more and then we're going to work. We're wrapping it up. I promise stroke patients, dementia patient. We just got the no go. Yes, no, it's a super short answer if you want Claire super short answer. Okay. So stroke dementia patients with urinary incontinence, any useful ideas for the rehab program? Yes, but not get an idea of their bladder habits, their bowel habits, their fluid intake. Because a lot of that's going to end up being outside caregiver help with the, with the stroke, it's much different. It depends on the severity and where it is and all of that. But for people with dementia is if you just get that, like if you can prompt them or take them to the toilet, a lot of the times that will take care of the incontinence. Speaker 1 (01:06:48): It's not a matter of like Cagle exercises. It's more management. All right, Sarah, thank you so much. I'm going to throw it back over to Claire to wrap things up. Thank you both for a wonderful and insightful discussion. Sarah and Karen. So many practical tips and pointers for the clinician, especially I was loving learning about all of the things that I could take to the clinic. So I hope our audience find those practical tips really helpful as always the link to this live chat will stay up on our Facebook page and we'll share it across our other social media channels. Don't forget. You can also follow us on Twitter. We're at Dow SPT. You can also follow us here on Facebook. Please share this chat with your friends, with family colleagues, anyone who you think might find it helpful. And if you like JSP T asks, please be sure to tell people about it at that what we're doing so they can find this here, please join us. Speaker 1 (01:07:46): Next week when we host our special guest professor Laurie from the university of Southern California, Larry is going to be answering questions on managing shoulder pain. We'll be here, live on Wednesday next week. So Wednesday, April the eighth at 9:00 AM Pacific. So that's noon. If you're on the East coast of the U S it's 5:00 PM. If you're in the UK and at 6:00 PM, if you're in Europe, before we sign off for the evening, there's also really important campaign that I'd like to draw your attention to. And it's one that we at Joe SPT supporting and it's get us PPE. So we're supporting this organization in their quest to buy as much a, to buy much needed personal protective equipment for frontline health workers who are helping us all in the fight against the coronavirus pandemic. So if you'd like to support, get us PPE, please visit their website, www dot, get us ppe.org, G E T U S P p.org as always. Thanks so much for joining us on this stale SPT asks live chat, and we'll speak to you next week. Bye. Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

Genesis 23 New King James Version Sarah’s Death and Burial 1 Sarah lived one hundred and twenty-seven years; these were the years of the life of Sarah. 2 So Sarah died in Kirjath Arba (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan, and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah and to weep for her. 3 Then Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spoke to the sons of Heth, saying, 4 “I am a foreigner and a visitor among you. Give me property for a burial place among you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.” 5 And the sons of Heth answered Abraham, saying to him, 6 “Hear us, my lord: You are a [a]mighty prince among us; bury your dead in the choicest of our burial places. None of us will withhold from you his burial place, that you may bury your dead.” 7 Then Abraham stood up and bowed himself to the people of the land, the sons of Heth. 8 And he spoke with them, saying, “If it is your wish that I bury my dead out of my sight, hear me, and [b]meet with Ephron the son of Zohar for me, 9 that he may give me the cave of Machpelah which he has, which is at the end of his field. Let him give it to me at the full price, as property for a burial place among you.” 10 Now Ephron dwelt among the sons of Heth; and Ephron the Hittite answered Abraham in the presence of the sons of Heth, all who entered at the gate of his city, saying, 11 “No, my lord, hear me: I give you the field and the cave that is in it; I give it to you in the presence of the sons of my people. I give it to you. Bury your dead!” 12 Then Abraham bowed himself down before the people of the land; 13 and he spoke to Ephron in the hearing of the people of the land, saying, “If you will give it, please hear me. I will give you money for the field; take it from me and I will bury my dead there.” 14 And Ephron answered Abraham, saying to him, 15 “My lord, listen to me; the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver. What is that between you and me? So bury your dead.” 16 And Abraham listened to Ephron; and Abraham weighed out the silver for Ephron which he had named in the hearing of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, currency of the merchants. 17 So the field of Ephron which was in Machpelah, which was before Mamre, the field and the cave which was in it, and all the trees that were in the field, which were within all the surrounding borders, were deeded 18 to Abraham as a possession in the presence of the sons of Heth, before all who went in at the gate of his city. 19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah, before Mamre (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan. 20 So the field and the cave that is in it were deeded to Abraham by the sons of Heth as property for a burial place.

In the last quarter of this year, late as it may seem, somehow somehow, God will make us laugh! How He will do it is not your business, just believe! As a matter of fact; if all the workings of God in your life can be explained, He cannot be God! A lot of people ask God for their heart desires but do not seek instructions. With God, every blessing has a purpose. So, not only should you ask God for what part you have to play, you should also ask for the purpose of the blessing. Watching Isaac get circumcised must have been painful for Abraham to watch, but He had to obey that instruction so that the boy may live. Obedience makes the blessing we receive from God permanent! Whatever happens, do not replace prayer with panic. GEN 18:12 (CEV) "So Sarah laughed and said to herself, "NOW THAT I AM WORN OUT and my husband is old, will I really know Such Happiness?" Sarah laughed Scornfully BECAUSE she felt too much time had passed, that by NOW, it was too late. But God didn't give up on her nor did He change His mind. The promises of God to you may tarry, wait for it. Don't quit on God! We may not get to our desired destination at the same time, but in God, we have an assurance that we'll get there. The past blessings of God should encourage you to know and be confident that if He came through for you before, He is able to do it again!

Sarah lived one hundred and twenty-seven years; these were the years of the life of Sarah. 2 So Sarah died in Kirjath Arba (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan, and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah and to weep for her.3 Then Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spoke to the sons of Heth, saying, 4 “I am a foreigner and a visitor among you. Give me property for a burial place among you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.”5 And the sons of Heth answered Abraham, saying to him, 6 “Hear us, my lord: You are a mighty prince among us; bury your dead in the choicest of our burial places. None of us will withhold from you his burial place, that you may bury your dead.”7 Then Abraham stood up and bowed himself to the people of the land, the sons of Heth. 8 And he spoke with them, saying, “If it is your wish that I bury my dead out of my sight, hear me, and meet with Ephron the son of Zohar for me, 9 that he may give me the cave of Machpelah which he has, which is at the end of his field. Let him give it to me at the full price, as property for a burial place among you.”10 Now Ephron dwelt among the sons of Heth; and Ephron the Hittite answered Abraham in the presence of the sons of Heth, all who entered at the gate of his city, saying, 11 “No, my lord, hear me: I give you the field and the cave that is in it; I give it to you in the presence of the sons of my people. I give it to you. Bury your dead!”12 Then Abraham bowed himself down before the people of the land; 13 and he spoke to Ephron in the hearing of the people of the land, saying, “If you will give it, please hear me. I will give you money for the field; take it from me and I will bury my dead there.”14 And Ephron answered Abraham, saying to him, 15 “My lord, listen to me; the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver. What is that between you and me? So bury your dead.” 16 And Abraham listened to Ephron; and Abraham weighed out the silver for Ephron which he had named in the hearing of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, currency of the merchants.17 So the field of Ephron which was in Machpelah, which was before Mamre, the field and the cave which was in it, and all the trees that were in the field, which were within all the surrounding borders, were deeded 18 to Abraham as a possession in the presence of the sons of Heth, before all who went in at the gate of his city.19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah, before Mamre (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan. 20 So the field and the cave that is in it were deeded to Abraham by the sons of Heth as property for a burial place.

Staying Efficient in Business With Sarah Stein Josh: Gday everyone out there in podcast world. We've got Sarah from Miss Efficiency. We're going to be talking today about how recession-proof your cash flow through efficiency in business. Sarah actually wrote a pretty cool white paper on how to remove paper from your business, which, I guess a bit of an interesting way of looking at it. So Sarah, in business, people are freaking out in business at the moment. If you're still in business, hopefully, what would you say is the number one way to stay efficient, and make sure that you keep your head on the right numbers? Get more tips on how to stay efficient in business at dorksdelivered.com Sarah: So Josh, I think it comes down to the systems that you put in place, and that is, a lot of the time it's the technology that you put in, but there are lots of other things outside of technology that you can do as well. So you know, there's so much technology out there, it can be very overwhelming and we can get overwhelmed with the choice. And then you can get overwhelmed with, you know, jumping at the next shiny thing all the time. So constantly, you're putting new things in place just because it's new and does some whiz-bang thing. But what you might have had already. I think we all are. And I have to pull myself back and think, hang on a second, do I actually need it? It's like anything like, do we need it? Do we need the new car is our current car doing exactly what we need it to do? And it's still safe and you know, it's the same with the technology in your business. So I think when thinking about the systems that you want to put in place in your business, go right back to basics, and map it out on paper. Map out what your objective is like what you actually want to get out of it. And then once you've got that mapped then you'll know which technology to put in place because your map is going to be your guide. So I think there are a few key ones. There's a lot of personal preference because a lot of technology does the same thing. You've got your MIB, Xero and QuickBooks, for example, like I prefer Xero. But there's pros and cons with all of them. So I think to have really good accounting software in place, and then something really good to keep track of your workflow depending on what your businesses and then something to keep track of your customers, and your leads, and, you know, CRM, if you like so that you can keep in front of everybody. So to answer your question, map it out, and then decide what you need. And then, you know, it can evolve and grow from there. It doesn't mean that because you've decided on this today, that's how it needs to stay forever. It just evolves as your business needs change. Josh: You're talking before about do you need this card? Do you need an upgraded car? Is this car fine? I'm guilty of being fooled, I'm going to use the term “fooled” into selling a perfectly good car to make sure that the image that I was representing was what was required by the business and it made no difference at all. No one cared about my car whatsoever. I dropped out a perfectly good car that was perfectly functional, the four-wheel-drive that I still have now is still perfectly fine and functional. But oh, man, what a ripoff. Just coming back to like what you need in your business. And what is the tech that would be good to check out. You told me the different accounting packages, obviously. You touched on some bits and bits about leads versus customers and stuff, which we'll talk about in a bit. But what is the good tech to check out? Sarah: I would say talk to your bookkeeper or your best agent, but you know, you've ruined that, you've ruined that. I think in this instance, cars aren't really our forte. But I think definitely talk to the people who are experts in using it. Do some research. Don't do too much research online because there's too much information. I know if I go online, yeah, there's just too much and it's too overwhelming. And it's like, that's all too hard. I'm not going to do it. Talk to other business owners that you know. So I had a phone call today from a client who was with a friend of theirs who is in a different business to them. So all my clients are on Xero and the friend of theirs was on MIB. And he was having trouble and he was thinking about converting over. So my client got me on the phone, we had a three-way conversation and you know, I could give them some information about MIB and Xero and a few other bits and pieces. So talk to other business owners that you know who are friends because they have a vested interest in it. So they are going to tell you the truth. And it's good to get in You know, other people's perspective, like how we would use Xero for my existing client would be different to how we would have used it for this other business owner. So definitely do your research. But I think, also come in prepared with the knowledge of what you need. So coming back to my scenario before about mapping out what you need. Think about what your current processes are, and evaluate what's manual, what's electronic, what's taking you the most time, what's the thing that you push around your desk the most before you realize, you know, you actually have to do it now. And then think about what your workflow is, what you would like it to be if there's something that you want to be able to do that your current systems don't allow you to do, to have a really good idea of what your needs are. So then when you talk to an advisor, they can say, okay, well based on that, this is what we would suggest to put in place, and based on what your needs are. We have a conversation with people to try and find out what they are currently doing what they would like to do and where they see their business in a few years’ time because maybe what's going to work for them. Now, that might not work in five years’ time. So if we don't think about the bigger picture, you might be doing the wrong thing. So do some research, educate yourself have a clear idea of what you want to get out of the system. And then you can have a really good conversation with an accountant or agent who can help you then put it into place. Josh: That makes a lot of sense. And I know that when I started the business, I decided I'm going to learn everything and I'm going to be the person who wears all the hats and develop the software that worked exactly as I wanted to. I hated the idea of bookkeeping myself, and so I learned everything I could about it, so that I could try and do it in an automated way. I ended up just spending too much time making this software instead of working in the business. Fast forward 12, 13 years we've got fantastic options out there like Xero, mostly online products that do 95% of the reconciliation. And as long as you've got the good bookkeepers in there that can make sure that when there is an anomaly, they're picking up on that and striking that out and making sure that they bring the attention to and fixing it. And we're in a better world now than when I first started building all this stuff out. One thing that I have found, though, is that we introduce into our software stack a better way to manage inbound leads and making sure that we were able to see if people were interested in our services. We’re making sure we're able to see what stage they are at, which is a very different kettle of fish to a lot of the managing an existing customer that's already spending money with you that you're making an invoice and doing service with. When it comes to that, do you differentiate? Or do you see a reason to differentiate between prospects leads and customers? Sarah: So when I first started my business, I was a very good bookkeeper. And I had to learn that I had to be a better business person, because it didn't matter how good I was at, you know, bookkeeping. If I was a crap business person, then I was going to have a crap business. So I had to learn all of these things very, very quickly, and it was a very steep learning curve. And I'm by no means the expert. So, I don't really differentiate leads and prospects. I just think that either clients or soon to be clients. And that's it. And I am quite, I don't know if basic is the right word, but I like to keep things simple. Because we were super busy and we're highly systematised and you know, there's a few of us in our team, we want to make sure it's easy for everybody to follow. And I think if you over complicate things, that's where, you know, cracks start to show. So we use a program called Active Campaign. I can't remember what the other is called. It's like the monkey is the logo. MailChimp. Yeah. So that was great. But all I did was send out the occasional newsletter, and it probably did a lot of things that I didn't do, but that was my failing rather than MailChimp’s failing. But then I moved into Active Campaign and I love Active Campaign. And as part of my onboarding process, like I have quite an extensive onboarding process, but Active Campaign drives a lot of that for me. So everybody goes into Active Campaign, I've got a download from my website. So once you download that, their information goes through. If people book online appointments with me, it goes through Calendly. Again, that automatically filters through to Active Campaign. So I think it's really important to capture a lot of this information, but it's really important to use the automation to do it for you, so that you can concentrate on the gold nuggets. But one of the things that I do so I send out regular communications and with the recent COVID events, I was sending out lots of information because I'm conscious of not bombarding people with too much information, but during that period, there was a lot of stuff to get out. So I was sending just about an update out every couple of days, just about, and I got so many messages back saying, this is amazing, thank you so much for sending it through, it's really nice to be able to have this information come through and we don't have to, you know, try and find it and work our way through. And these are comments from people that aren't even my clients, you know, so that was really great. Josh: The beautiful thing about that, like if you're producing that without like it, you're producing that and throwing bloody Aussie accent and I understand what you're blooming saying as opposed to some of the legislative legal crap you read on some of the government, nothing against the government websites, but you just read it you go, okay, why did Betty bend. Some of the examples I'm reading, this makes no sense. This is too hard. Sarah: I think they try to make it so simple. They actually overcomplicate it. Josh: Oh, absolutely. I had a look, and I read the sentence twice. And I thought, okay, I missed the comma on the first time, and it completely changed the meaning of the sentence. And I bought that to my account. And I said, How do you interpret this? And this was on one of the cash flow stimulus things. And he interpreted it in the polar opposite way that I did. And we ended up coming to a conclusion that yes, he'll do some more research and find out the answer for us like, you're exactly right. It can make it more complicated than what it would be helpful. Sarah: Yes, yeah. But one of the really cool things just coming back to Active Campaign, which is one of the things that I love about it, is when I get a new client. So in the old days, I would send them an email because I'm very much a word skill. I will always say the name up before I pick up the phone, although COVID has changed that slightly, but in the old days, I would send a new client an email that was, if they'd printed it out, it would have been 15 pages long with all of the information that I thought that they needed to know. And you know, realistically I know that they're not going to read that, because who has time to read a 15-page email seriously. So one of the things that I've done in Active Campaign is part of, you know, a few other programs that I've got linked together when a new client comes on board. I haven't onboarding automation that triggers through Active Campaign. So as soon as they get the tag on their contact, if you like that they are now a client. This automation automatically triggers and it's basically that 15-page email drip feed out over a number of weeks. So it's not too much information for this client to read. And, you know, the very first email is basically saying welcome. And that's it, you know, it's like a couple of paragraphs, and that's it. Then the next day, they'll get one saying, this is what you can expect next. And that's it. Just, you know, there's images in it and it's nice and pretty and easy to read. Then a couple of days later, they'll get one that introduces them to the team. How they should communicate with us. And then three days later, they'll get one that shows them how to set up receipt bank. Within this time period, I'm working in their file and have set up receipt bank. So it's all really nice and seamless. And so it gets the information to the client that I need them to see. It gets delivered to them in a format that's easy for them to read. And it's just keeping those touchpoints. So the I think there's about 10 emails that they get delivered out over the course of six weeks. And by the end of it, you know, we might have done the best, we've pulled everything together. It's just a really nice introduction. I think that's the way that I intend for the relationship to be so that's how it starts. And it's setting some really nice groundwork at the beginning of the relationship. Josh: Similar to what you said actually on this. I started off the same. I was fantastic at I could cure cancer for computers. But if that said on the show, it's not going to be any benefit to anyone. So I had to become better at marketing and better business in that sense. What you've said there, you've increased the amount of touchpoints, you've decreased the friction on them not reading the email saying I'll do that later, because it's too long. And I'll tell you right now, I've got two emails sitting there. He said, he's attached a Word document, he said, look on page four, section three, that's a bit of thing is going to be most interesting, but make sure to read the whole lot first. And I was like, ah, I've got other stuff to do. You've removed the friction, which is great. You've increased the touchpoints, which is great. You've built these all in an automated way, which means you're not sitting there having to do this or group it to them. Out of interest did you build it all out yourself? Sarah: I’m a bit of a control freak. So I did do it myself. But I'm super proud that I was pregnant and I've had the baby in the end of it. There was this baby. It's like, yeah, look what I did. So it was very, very cool. I really, really enjoyed doing it. and it was completely outside of my comfort zone, but Active Campaign is amazing. I mean, they're American based. I think they have some, some support people in Australia, but they were just awesome. I did have a couple of little triggering issues. But I got onto the support team, and they helped me and that was just, it works brilliantly. So I've done a few of those now. So yeah, and I love Active Campaign. Josh: You're preaching to the preacher, okay. Not a half years ago, and we started using Active Campaign thought it was absolutely the best thing since sliced bread. And it has just never ceased to amaze us. Every single part of it's amazing Sarah: But some of your listeners that might be thinking, ah, that's just too hard. Or they might jump in and think, oh, you know, it's really, really complicated. It's really not. I'm someone who deals with technology every day, but I have my little comfort bubble as well. And so when I first started with Active Campaign, it was way outside my comfort zone. The person that put me on to Active Campaign, I said, you know, I'm a bit of a technophobe. And he's like, what do you mean? You are the biggest propellerhead I know. And I'm like, so funny but he would say that. But I didn't know it. I just was a little bit patient with myself and kind to myself, you know, I can work this out. And there are hundreds of people that will do it for you. If you want someone to maybe just build the bones of it for you. And then you're good to run with it. Yeah, I did it myself because it's a bit of that control thing. I think it's great and like I said, this heaps more that I could do with it, but this is working for me at the moment. Josh: I think it's something everyone should be having in business. It is a lifesaver for us. My partner Sarah, her whole business is set up completely in Active Campaign. This podcast sounds like a commercial for Active Campaign. But her business, hair and makeup business from start to finish is completely Active Campaign. People come through on her website, she's able to see if they've clicked through from AdWords, she is able to see where their sources are, if they fill out a form, once they fill out the form and then sends them a welcome email and then a would you like to get a quote and then they fill out a few bits and pieces since them off a quote. She's asleep watching and then they've already got a quote they've already got a tentative date in mind, she has a quick phone call with them, make sure that they're all happy to understand what they want. And there's nothing out of the ordinary that they're looking to get to this special day. Then after that automatically sends across into her calendar takes all the payments and sends out for review emails in bits and pieces later. She's managing a team of five staff, the meat and gravy that the most of it is all Active Campaign. So I think it's great and it's definitely a tool that makes businesses more efficient. I'm really happy to hear you using it. Something that when we talk to businesses a lot of time they're like, oh, what's Active Campaign. Oh no, we use MailChimp. It's fine. And from your perspective, when you took the leap, how would you for someone who is using MailChimp without throwing dirt at them, like, how would you say the differences between the two products? They're both great products, but they’re both different products. Sarah: Okay, so I think it's like doing your accounts in Excel and then going to Xero. You know, they both give you the same outcome. They both do the same thing, you're tracking your expenses or whatever, but there's just, you know, it's just a lot prettier. It does an awesome job, it’s easier for you. There's less grunt work. And, I enjoyed it, I didn't mind MailChimp, it was easy for me to use, but literally, all I did was send newsletters, and I didn't do it very regularly. I was pretty useless at being regular. I didn't track any of the reporting. I'm pretty sure it does do some automation, but I didn't know about it and didn't know how to do it. And I was probably on the free version. So I didn't see the value in it, maybe if I was paying for it, I would have worked harder at it. So I don't think actually, it's an issue with MailChimp, it was a totally me issue. But then when I moved to Active Campaign, I just noticed all the bells and whistles that may or may not be in MailChimp. I think making the move to it, it had a mindset shift for me as well about okay, I've got to get serious and I've got to do this. So I've been in business 18 years, I moved to Active Campaign within the last five years. So it just goes to show that you don't have to have all of your ducks in a row within the first year or two. And, they're constantly moving anyway. You know, sometimes I'll make a big change to my business or you know, there'll be a big shift, and there often is at various times and I often referred to myself, as you know, a 15-year-old startup or an 18-year-old startup Because it seems so new now because we've made such a big change. And it doesn't mean that necessarily you were doing things wrong before. It just means your business has changed and you've evolved with the way that you do things. Josh: The Excel versus Xero analogy. I'm going to use again if that's okay with you, that's amazing, that's perfect. In my opinion, MailChimp is fantastic at making campaigns or newsletters. It's not fantastic at allowing for touchpoints and customer attention and interactions and seeing what they're doing on your website and how they're working with you and tagging and then integrating into other systems, and Active Campaign has its campaigns. And if you're comparing the two, Active Campaign’s campaign module versus MailChimp is what I'd say is about the same but it's just there's so much more in Active Campaign versus MailChimp. But if anyone is interested actually in checking out a little bit more on how some of this automation can work, Sarah has got a little gift for you. And that's if you jump across to Missefficiency.com/book, you can jump on there. She's got the ability for you to check out how to save up to five hours, is that right of your workweek? Sarah: Yes. So there's a free download on my website, which gives you the tools to be able to, say, five hours a week and your business. It basically comes back to systems and technology. And, that's all it is. I think you can be, anybody can build a great business that I think the fundamentals comes down to people, technology, and the systems that you put in place. I've actually written a book, and like, it's not a download. It's an actual book, and it's all about systematising your business. It's called “Wow, I'm in Business... Your Journey From Overwhelmed to Organised”, and I did write it based on an experience that I had with a client. So one of the other programs we use is Dropbox, which you there's lots of other programs that are similar to that. That's just the one that we use. But I had a client, that's still a client, they own a pub in Central Queensland. And they've had it for a while. And the client rang me one day during the week and said, You know, I'm completely overwhelmed. I need you to come and just sort things out. And we'd already put in place Xero and you know, a few other bits and pieces and I'm like, Oh, okay. She says, you just have to come. So she booked me on a flight. And the next Friday, I was heading up there, and I spent the weekend there. They live about an hour and a half from the airport. So she'd come and pick me up and I had known her for a long time. She came and picked me up from the airport, and we were driving out there. And I could tell that she was super, super stressed and just wasn't herself, because I would always see her in Brisbane and you know, she's bubbly and bright, and yeah, I could tell that she was really, really stressed and overwhelmed. And anyway, I spent four days out there, and I didn't do a great deal. So they've got a pub, a restaurant, a bottle shop and some cabin accommodation. We already had Receipt Bank and Xero. So I put in Dropbox so that she would have a place to store her information. I developed some forms for her staff so that she'd have employee packs. I developed some forms that could be used for bookings and accommodation. So we couldn’t put too much technology and because the internet up there is not always that great. So, I just did a few bits and pieces like that. I didn't think it was anything too major. It just seemed like common sense to me. But then when she was driving me back to the airport, she got out and she looked like a different person. It was literally like this huge weight had been lifted off her shoulder. And she told me, I'm so grateful to have you here and to do all of this stuff for me. I'm thinking, you know, I didn't really do a great deal but you know, and then as I was on the plane coming home, I'm thinking, you know, the transformation that I saw in her mindset and her presence and physically just within a few days of me doing something that I thought was kind of easy, got me thinking. By the end of my fight -it was about an hour and a half- I had basically written that book in my head. I was to take that overwhelm away and remember why you got into business in the first place, reignite that passion, because you can't put two systems and great things in place, if you are feeling burdened and bogged down. So the first thing that the book talks about is reigniting that passion. And then we can talk about putting systems in place. There's lots of templates and bits and pieces that you can download from the website. But it was kind of life-changing for me as well because I sort of took for granted how easy it is for me, but it's not always easy for other people. But it's the same effect if I turn it around if I go into some buddies business where I'm needing help, I'm completely overwhelmed, but it's really easy for them. So yeah, that's what the book is about. Josh: Well, I definitely think if anyone is interested in the book sounds like a great story that's I know I'm in the process of writing another book myself. One of my friends said, if you think reading books, try writing a book. What you said there is actually really, really good. Sometimes you have the knowledge and you take it for granted that everyone has that same knowledge and you've got these hidden gems that you help people out and they just overly grateful, and sometimes I felt I thought people were being like, taking the piss. If anyone is looking for a bookkeeper who goes above and beyond and is 100%, not your ordinary book make sure you contact Sarah, Miss Efficiency, she's going to be able to help you out. And as you can already hear from a wonderful knowledge, she's stubborn enough to stick in there and make sure that she's putting in the right solutions for you. Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to go through before we finish off on the podcast? Sarah: We've probably touched on some really good stuff. Maybe we'll save this for another occasion. But I think cash flow would be the next conversation to have that can take your business to the next level. And particularly in times like these, you know, who would have thought there would ever be, you know, a pandemic in our lifetime. If that doesn't make you realise how important good financial literacy is, then nothing will. Josh: Probably save it for another time for the moment. It's own episode in its entirety, I think. But I really appreciate you coming on the episode and giving our listeners a bit of a view into the things that you do. Sarah: Thank you for having me. Josh: If anyone has any questions, make sure to jump across to miss efficiency.com.au, and leave us some love. If you have any comments and reviews for us, make sure to jump across iTunes. Leave us some love. Give us some feedback. And everyone, stay well out there with the COVID around the place and stay healthy.

Welcome back to the Whole View, episode 4-1-1. (0:27) Does 411 still exist as a resource you can call? This week, we have a really amazing question from Holly. The topic is one that has been bouncing around in Sarah's head for a while. When she talks to someone about how she eats, it can be tricky to navigate what vocabulary to use. So now seems like a really good time to dig into this, especially given the recent podcast name change.   Listener Question Holly writes, "Hey ladies, I’m a long time listener of the podcast and I hope by telling you both how awesome you are that you will answer my question. (2:02) Just kidding! But I know it can’t hurt and it's true! Really, thank you both for all the work you do to keep us in the know. I have been finding the Covid shows so helpful and I feel like I get to rant with you both. On to my question, Sarah I noticed your new book has non-paleo and non-aip foods in it and I know the podcast name has changed, so... do you both even still follow a paleo diet? I would love to know what your diets look like now. Also, what do you both recommend now for all of us looking for general health guidelines, if Paleo is no longer the ‘thing’? Thanks again for all you do!   P.S. Sorry Sarah if you cover this in the book, I admittedly have just done a quick scan, and I promise to read it soon.   Sarah's New eBook Sarah completely forgot to tell our podcast listeners that she just launched her Gut Microbiome eBook. (3:01) The book that Holly is referring to is Sarah's new Gut Health Guidebook. Sarah has been working on a Gut Microbiome book for about six years now. She started this book before writing Healing Kitchen. Healing Kitchen was a book writing tangent, and then Paleo Principles was a second book writing tangent. Since Paleo Principles came out, this book has been Sarah's singular focus. She was wrapping it up earlier this year and then when covid hit, it caused a delay in the publication process. Sarah still doesn't know when it will come out, but her guess is that at this point it will be sometime in 2021. As soon as she found out that this was not going to be the late 2020 book she was pushing for, Sarah took the cohesive storyline of diet and lifestyle and package that up into an eBook. The way that the Gut Microbiome book was coming together made it clear that it couldn't be one book the way Paleo Principles is. Sarah is taking the companion cookbook and is also going to create an eBook out of that content. That will launch late this summer. So the Gut Health Guidebook is now live and you can package it together with a preorder of the cookbook. Sarah is offering a special discount for anybody who wants to do that. To find the offer, see here.   From Stacy's Point of View Stacy and crew just got back from being in the wilderness for a week. (6:24) She won't call it camping because it is more glamping. They prepped a lot of food before they left and cooked over the fire each night. It is interesting for Stacy to think about this question in the context of having just been on that trip. The different kinds of foods that they took this trip versus previous glamping trips Things were very similar, with some exceptions. As we talk about what they are each now doing and why, those points will weave in. Years ago they did not take gluten-free graham crackers for example. Stacy made Paleo chocolate chip cookies and then they made marshmallows and used those homemade creations for s' mores. She also wants to note for perspective that it has been over ten years since both Stacy and Sarah started their journey into what she would call a health awakening. They started with this idea of paleo, but that health awakening really started when Cole was born and Stacy was breastfeeding for the first time. This is when Stacy realized that what she was eating was going directly into him. That transitioned over many years until the birth of Wesley, and that was the point in which Stacy realized that her body was responding to certain foods in a way that was hurting her children when nursing. Stacy has learned from her body what she tolerates vs. thrives on. It is also interesting in this world of covid, how we need our bodies to be thriving and to be as strong as possible. Where you is where you are, and there is no shame in where you have been or where you are going. When we talk about diet we talk about how you choose to eat your food. We are not talking about a fad diet, a way that you eat for short-term results. This has always been a key concept on this show. It has always been about a lifestyle. If you focus on what feels best for you and listen to your body, you can find a way to live a balance in your life to not think about food as something as anything other than fuel.   Healthy Living Stacy wants to refer everyone back to episode 358 on Intuitive Eating. (11:16) This show is very representative of our thoughts on anti-diet and intuitive eating. On this episode, we share how you can incorporate this into a way of healthy living. There is a response that your body has to certain foods, and to ignore that is not beneficial to your long-term health. But how can you incorporate those foods without it being a diet that you punish yourself for? This turns food into a reward, which isn't good either. If you find yourself in a place where food has that kind of control or thought pattern, please go back and listen to that episode. It will really tell the full picture of what we are going to dive into with the way we fuel and nourish ourselves. We try to optimize thriving, while still representing the emotional importance of some of that stuff.   From Sarah's Point of View Sarah loves how Stacy framed the way that her healthy awakening journey began because Sarah's started with Adele. (12:33) In her first pregnancy, she has gestational diabetes and she managed her blood sugar really well with careful measuring. When Adele was one she realized that she was getting that same sickish feeling every time she ate. Sarah still had her blood sugar testing supplies and one day after lunch decided to test her levels. Her levels were 200, which is the cusp between pre-diabetes and type-2 diabetes. She does not recommend this at all, but Sarah never told her doctor. Sarah felt so much guilt around this reality as she was intimately aware of the consequences of diabetes. So that day was the day that she changed her diet, and she went to the thing she knew. Sarah went low-carb, and in many ways, the last ten years has been a road of recovering from that stretch of low-carb. She was able to lose weight and normalize her blood sugar levels and blood pressure. She had markers showing her that she was healthy, but her autoimmune diseases were getting worse. It was a tradeoff. When Sarah's youngest daughter was closing in on two, it was actually the autoimmune flairs that brought her to paleo. Sarah's immediate was response was that paleo was crazy, but as she dug into it the science made sense. Once Sarah got into it, she went cold turkey with it on August 31, 2011, which helped a lot of things. However, it didn't help everything so for her New Year's resolution that year she started the autoimmune protocol. At that time AIP was very poorly defined. So Sarah defined and established what AIP was and is now, at the same time she was doing it. Sarah was very influenced by Dr. Terry Wahls TEDx presentation.   More on Sarah's Journey So she used her knowledge base to understand how foods interact with the human body, throughout this entire experience. (18:36) And she has never stopped continuing to learn. As Sarah has continued to learn, she has continued to tinker with her diet. Over the years this has turned into something that she doesn't know if paleo is the correct label to describe how she eats now. The term paleo, as is typically defined, is still defined as what you don't eat. Sarah doesn't believe that what you eliminate makes a diet healthy or not. It is actually the foods that you eat that is what determines whether or not that diet is healthy. And it is the nutrient density that serves as the primary criteria as to whether or not a diet supports health. Eliminations are things that you add on top of that to address specific health challenges or goals. Sarah's diet has really expanded over that time. This started in October of 2012 with methodical reintroductions after having followed the AIP for about 10-months. A lot of those reintroductions were successful. When she started the AIP Lecture Series in 2019 she realized that she was scared to reintroduce beyond what she had already done. Sarah was so comfortable with where she is at that she didn't want to reintroduce anything further and run into possible setbacks. However, she realized that she really need to change her mindset around that. When you can expand your diet to allow for nutrient expansion, that is making strides towards improved health. This microbiome research has solidified Sarah's feelings towards a lot of the foods that the paleo diet has been criticized for eliminating. Legumes and rice are two examples that Sarah highlighted.   Where Paleo Fell Short One of the things that paleo has failed in terms of serving its community, is the way it has lumped foods together. (23:19) The framework of the diet says no grains, no dairy, no legumes, and no processed foods. Sarah feels that it is unfair to lump all of those foods together. There are some terrible grains, and there are actually some grains with science to back their different benefits. This is true for legumes as well. When you look at the gut microbiome you can see very clearly which grains and legumes benefit the gut microbiome and which don't. So as Sarah was pulling together this information, she started methodically challenging legumes, dairy, tomatoes, and switched from white to brown rice. What worked has become very moderate additions to her diet. Sarah's diet is still mostly vegetables, fruit, and a moderate serving of protein. Introducing these other foods requires a more nuanced approach. It requires being able to not lump everything together and select what to eat carefully. If we take this nutrient-density approach, then we are eating what we need to thrive, and it changes how we tolerate some foods that might have antinutrients, but ultimately have a lot of valuable nutrition to provide the body. Stacy thinks that there are a lot of things that we have talked about on this show that are all over the place if you are trying to track when and how Stacy and Sarah's journies unfolded.  We know this sounds very complicated. However, doing simple things like meal planning help to make sure that you have certain foods on your meal plan several times a week will simplify the process. For Stacy, it can be something as simple as making homemade tuna salad.   Stacy's Journey Stacy and Sarah have had a similar approach. (29:57) However, Stacy will admit that her approach is a lot less focused on as many nutrients as Sarah is committed to. If Sarah's is more paleo 80/20, Stacy thinks her approach is more 75/25. However, it is also important to understand that her goal is no longer weight loss. She lost 134 pounds at the peak of her weight loss, but she only got to that number of the scale one day and she did it through disordered eating. Stacy justified the disordered eating with intermittent fasting. As a result of her habits, she had digestive distress which caused nutrient deficiency, and she had a thyroid nodule and a huge flair. Sarah and Stacy, along with a medical professional, had to work to help Stacy restore her health during that period. It got really bad healthwise and she needed to recover. Not just gut health had to recover, Stacy's body was in a bad place. In 2015, Stacy asked the question, is your paleo challenge justifying disordered eating?  This was controversial because at the time many were doing paleo challenges every other month as a "normal" part of their diet. Stacy pointed out that this is not being paleo, and eating to incorporate a nutrient-dense, anti-inflammatory lifestyle. This is using paleo as a yo-yo diet. The more Stacy became aware of what was happening to her and many others in the community, it was where Stacy and Sarah started talking about metrics of health. There was also a lot of fatphobia in the community.   More on Stacy's Journey From Stacy's perspective and awakening in all of this is still very health-focused. (32:19) Stacy wants health, wellness, and longevity for her family. Her original goal with starting Paleo was that she had such low energy and wanting to play with her kids. Thinking about that original goal and where she is at today, Stacy feels that food enabled her to have the energy she needed to get more active. She is worlds apart from where she was in terms of her energy levels and wellness in general. Stacy did put on weight as she came out of that low-carb, paleo period. That was her starved, it was not a real weight. Stacy ended up rebounding and reaching a really good place until she injured her back, which then she couldn't move for a year. Stacy put on weight from that period of time, but she has maintained a significant amount of that weight that she originally lost. However, Stacy really doesn't weigh herself due to her history with how she equates her worth to that number on the scale. Body positivity and self-love have become very important to Stacy as she optimizes her health. Stacy looks at food and asks herself, "is what I am consuming going to give me wellness and longevity?" And sometimes that is the motivating factor she needs to not get ice cream or whatever it is. This comes from a much different place, one without deprivation and punishment and those kinds of things that Stacy did for so long. And it is not linear. For Stacy, she didn't flip a switch and was fixed. These are habits that she has to consistently work on and quarantine has not been easy.   Nutrivore This is where Stacy has really changed her mindset, as she first and foremost thinks of herself as a nutrivore, someone who prioritizes nutrient density. (35:49) Stacy recognizes that they can't have a diet of only white rice, but if they are sick and that is the only thing they are able to keep down, how can they optimize it? They can put in grass-fed ghee, cook the rice in bone broth, put kept on top, and then for their next meal find something else like sweet potatoes to fill the carb cravings. Stacy does focus on adding nutrient density and vegetables to what she describes as a gluten-free, corn-free, legume-free, and night-shade free diet. She would love to be able to eat those foods, but they don't agree with her body. Stacy is not dairy-free in the same way that Sarah is. She can tolerate more dairy, but not every day. The dairy that Stacy tolerates is fat only forms. Stacy feels that there is a big difference in the thought process from where they were, to where they are now.   Sarah's Implementation of a Nutrivore Diet Sarah has something very similar. (38:16) Prior to covid, when Sarah ate in a restaurant she would say she is gluten-free, dairy-free, and soy-free. These are things she knows she can't do.  The term that Sarah most resonates with now is nutrivore. This best describes Sarah's approach because she looks at food as providing her body with the resources it needs to do all the things it wants to do.  And those resources are nutrients. By adopting the term nutrivore, instead of saying "I eat these foods and not these foods", I'm saying that the primary goal of my diet as a whole is to supply my body with all the essential and non-essential nutrients it needs to thrive from my food. That is the goal.  You can basically fit junky calories into your diet if the bulk of your diet is made up of super nutrient-dense foods.  Because those junky calories at that point are not taking away from meeting that goal of getting all of the nutrients that your body needs. This helps us get away from food labels of good vs. bad, and gets into what is the quality of my diet?  Did I meet my nutritional needs today? And did I meet those needs today with some energy deficit?  Sarah likes that this moves us away from stigmatizing foods.  However, it still recognizes foods that aren't good for anybody.  Sarah doesn't believe that everyone needs to be strictly gluten-free. As we get away from demonizing foods, we can get back to the thing that is most important.  Meeting the body's nutritional needs is a top priority.  From there you can layer eliminations on top of that, or add additional nutritional focus on top of that to meet specific health challenges and goals. For example, Sarah thinks of AIP as a sub diet of a nutrivore approach. There is now emerging science showing that the gut microbiome really needs a minimal amount of carbohydrate.  This amount is probably at least 150 grams a day, if not 200 grams a day.    How to Describe It If Sarah were to describe her diet to someone who was serving her food, she would describe it as gluten-free, dairy-free, and soy-free. (43:44) If she was talking to her neighbor who wanted to make some dietary changes she would probably use the word nutrivore. Sarah would then talk about the importance of eating a lot of vegetables, higher-quality meat, more seafood, eating fruit, eating a serving of mushrooms a day, and a palm-full of nuts a day.  She would also talk about snout-to-tail eating. Also why soaking legumes is still a best practice.  The focus would be on eating more nutrient-dense foods and allowing them to displace the foods that aren't doing us any favors.  Rather than eliminating foods that are put into this 'no' category.  Stacy thinks this perspective is helpful.  It is helpful to be reminded of what our ultimate goal is. We are then able to ask, ok, how do we get there in a sustainable way.  If you are overly restrictive and you can't stick with that, it isn't good either.  How can you optimize without boomeranging to the other side?   Customization Stacy wants to point out a few more things that are unique to her since she doesn't have a gallbladder. (46:05)  She has to pay particular attention to fats. Matt and Stacy have added more olive oil and avocado oil, and use less lard.  They also eat gluten-free treats.  Stacy doesn't do oats, and they don't do legumes in their family. They do have brown rice pasta about once a week. If Stacy does have a meal of rice or pasta, she does try to ensure that she has a veggie-rich meal on that day to make up for the overall vegetables and nutrients that she is trying to achieve every day.  She also tries to move her body.  It is about how she feels, and she has to listen to her body.  Sarah doesn't feel bad about cooking brown rice pasta at all. Especially after going through the gut microbiome researching and learning about how good rice is for the gut microbiome. It is not a base food because it doesn't have a ton of nutrition, but in the context of a meal that incorporates other nutrient-dense options, it becomes a good contribution.  Stacy mentioned this blog post on casserole prep. She also takes supplements of daily collagen but doesn't drink broth as often as she use to.  Stacy also takes liver pills, vitamin D and magnesium.  She is also adding mushrooms with more intention these days.  Stir-fries are a favorite these days, as Stacy finds it easy to add nutrients to these dishes.  Stacy has added things in, but it hasn't been as thoughtful as Sarah's process.  However, she is very aware of what they are adding and what they are or aren't doing.  Stacy strives to be mindful of balance because social and emotional wellbeing in terms of sustainability and disordered eating has been so impactful to Stacy.  She has had to really learn to listen to her body and really find a balance on how she feels in terms of digestion and energy, more than anything else for it to work long-term. It is important to Stacy to not feel bad or to go off the rails. This can be hard if you come from a place of dysmorphia or eating disorders or any kind of stuff like that. For Stacy, she has worked on that stuff and gone to therapy and become self-aware. If you are struggling with this stuff, you can't just solve it in a vacuum.  When there is emotions around your food, you do have to address the emotion or else you will never solve the problem.   Closing Thoughts One of the things that have allowed Sarah to embrace the term nutrivore is to develop a healthier relationship with food. (1:01:03) Just like when we first adopted paleo, nine to ten years ago, that was always going to be a lifestyle.  It has evolved, and her diet has expanded. While Sarah thinks of it as nutrivore, you could also call it AIP maintenance phase, or paleo plus, or 80/20.  There are other labels that we can use, but it is still a lifestyle.  It is about lifelong health and hopefully improving her longevity.  This still includes getting enough sleep, managing stress, living an active lifestyle, and nature time. These are all still pieces of the health puzzle for Sarah.  But what she has been able to do by shedding the dogmatic rules that have been associated with the paleo diet for so long is to develop a healthier relationship with food. One of the side effects this has had is that portion control is much easier, which has always been a real struggle for Sarah.  This healthier relationship with food has allowed Sarah to regular her cravings and appetite. Getting beyond paleo has allowed Sarah to fix some of the food relationship problems that she was still having on the paleo diet.  Stacy and Sarah have been talking about doing some changes on the show for a long time, and you are seeing some of them with the name change of the show.  They are planning to let go of their G-rating soon, so that they can relax a bit on things. Stacy and Sarah's true unfiltered thoughts on things will be coming through in the next few weeks.  That is it for this week's episode.  Thank you for listening, and we will be back next week! (1:07:20)

Common English Bible (CEB) Genesis 15:15-17 15 As for you, you will join your ancestors in peace and be buried after a good long life. 16 The fourth generation will return here since the Amorites’ wrongdoing won’t have reached its peak until then.” 17 After the sun had set and darkness had deepened, a smoking vessel with a fiery flame passed between the split-open animals. 18:1-15 Isaac’s birth announced 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre while he sat at the entrance of his tent in the day’s heat. 2 He looked up and suddenly saw three men standing near him. As soon as he saw them, he ran from his tent entrance to greet them and bowed deeply. 3 He said, “Sirs, if you would be so kind, don’t just pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought so you may wash your feet and refresh yourselves under the tree. 5 Let me offer you a little bread so you will feel stronger, and after that you may leave your servant and go on your way—since you have visited your servant.” They responded, “Fine. Do just as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried to Sarah at his tent and said, “Hurry! Knead three seahs[a] of the finest flour and make some baked goods!” 7 Abraham ran to the cattle, took a healthy young calf, and gave it to a young servant, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then Abraham took butter, milk, and the calf that had been prepared, put the food in front of them, and stood under the tree near them as they ate. 9 They said to him, “Where’s your wife Sarah?” And he said, “Right here in the tent.” 10 Then one of the men said, “I will definitely return to you about this time next year. Then your wife Sarah will have a son!” Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were both very old. Sarah was no longer menstruating. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, I’m no longer able to have children and my husband’s old. 13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Me give birth? At my age?’ 14 Is anything too difficult for the Lord? When I return to you about this time next year, Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah lied and said, “I didn’t laugh,” because she was frightened. But he said, “No, you laughed.” 21:1-17 Isaac’s birth 21 The Lord was attentive to Sarah just as he had said, and the Lord carried out just what he had promised her. 2 She became pregnant and gave birth to a son for Abraham when he was old, at the very time God had told him. 3 Abraham named his son—the one Sarah bore him—Isaac.[a] 4 Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old just as God had commanded him. 5 Abraham was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born. 6 Sarah said, “God has given me laughter. Everyone who hears about it will laugh with me.”[b] 7 She said, “Who could have told Abraham that Sarah would nurse sons? But now I’ve given birth to a son when he was old!”

Welcome back, Whole View listeners. (0:27) Stacy is so excited for 410 because it is one of those shows that she asked for. She has taken other magnesium before years ago and did not feel a difference. So she asked Sarah why BiOptimizers magnesium makes her feel so good. And Sarah decided that this would make for a great podcast episode, as opposed to leaving the information in a text exchange. Stacy is super excited to dive into the science of magnesium. But first, a quick shout out to this week's sponsor, BiOptimizers.  We reached out to them asking if they would sponsor this week's show because Stacy personally loves and feels different on their magnesium. If you haven't felt a difference when you take other magnesium supplements, Stacy recommends that you give BiOptimizers a try.  You can get 10% off with the code WHOLEVIEW10. However, if you visit this link, the code will automatically be plugged into your shopping cart. There are some bundle sets at that site link as well that will save you additional money on your purchases. Sarah noted that this is actually episode 409. She too is very excited to talk about magnesium. Sarah feels that this is an undervalued nutrient. It is the fourth most abundant mineral in the human body. One of the things that Stacy wants to point out is that in light of the recent sleep issue podcast episodes, magnesium is a helpful tool when taken in the evenings.   Magnesium's Role in the Human Body Magnesium is necessary for more than 300 different enzymes to work. (5:14) Whether as a co-factor or a stabilizer, this nutrient is critical in the human body. Among the enzymes that magnesium is required for to work is every enzyme that uses or synthesizes ATP. ATP is the basic energy currency of all cells. So our cells cannot make energy or use energy without magnesium. ATP is required for everything related to metabolism. If you start to look at every single action that uses cellular energy or makes cellular energy as magnesium-dependent, it starts to become really easy to see why magnesium is so important for human health. Plus, it has such a diverse range of effects. It is also required for the enzymes that synthesize DNA and RNA. Magnesium is an essential cofactor for many enzymatic reactions involved in neurotransmitter synthesis. It is also a constituent of bones and teeth and regulates bone formation. Likewise, magnesium is necessary for the production of testosterone and progesterone. It is also important for the metabolism of phosphorus, calcium, potassium, sodium, B-complex vitamins, and vitamins C and E. Magnesium is necessary for all detoxification functions. It also regulates vascular tone, heart rhythm, platelet-activated thrombosis, blood pressure, and cholesterol production. When we are not consuming enough magnesium, there is a high connection to hypertension and cardiovascular disease. Lastly, modulates insulin signal transduction and may have a role in regulating insulin secretion.  This is taking a look at magnesium through a micro-view. For more on the basics of magnesium, see here.   At the Macro Level Sarah wants to take a step back and look at magnesium function from a macro sense. (9:03) Magnesium plays a critical role in the stress axis. Every single aspect of the HPA axis (our flight or fight response) is sensitive to magnesium. Because over activation of that axis is tied with anxiety and depression, we can see through magnesium's action on the HPA axis how each hormone in that system is communicating. In order to function normally, all of that is relying on magnesium. We can see that magnesium deficiency is probably a necessary precondition for the development of generalized anxiety disorder and depression. There have been animal studies where they simply don't give them enough magnesium, and the animals show behaviors that are representative of depression and anxiety. They can treat those animals with antidepressants and show benefits. However, when treated with magnesium they show a reversal in symptoms. In humans, a low level of magnesium in the blood or in the spinal fluid has been associated with depressive symptoms as well as suicidality. For more on the connection between magnesium and stress, see here.   Sleep The other link to look at is sleep. (11:27) We know that inadequate sleep is also linked with mood. Now there is a fairly good understanding that magnesium plays a role in regulating sleep. So it actually regulates the central nervous system excitability and has a calming effect on the central nervous system. This is the reason why we want to take magnesium in the evening. Magnesium also helps to promote the activity of GABA. GABA is one of the main neurotransmitters involved in relaxation and sleep. There have been a variety of studies showing that there is a direct relationship between the amount of magnesium in the blood and how much people sleep, and how much deep sleep people have. If you have lots of magnesium in your blood you tend to get a lot better quality sleep, a lot more deep sleep, and less REM sleep. Studies have shown that supplementation with magnesium improves sleep. There have even been studies that show that magnesium deficiency may contribute to insomnia. For more on the insomnia link, see here. Stacy noted that magnesium is one of those things where it is relatively easy to not have enough of because of how much we actually need it.   Absorption Magnesium levels in our blood are generally controlled by our kidneys, and we have this reserved storage that is in our bones at any given time. (14:57) One of the things that the kidneys can do is take magnesium from our bones to restore it into our blood system. However, there are certain conditions where we burn through magnesium and we can't access the stored magnesium fast enough to keep blood levels at an optimum level. This is primarily related to stress. When we are stressed, we burn through magnesium really quickly. It happens in both acute and chronic stress. Chronic stress can cause magnesium deficiency through a constant turnover of magnesium. We will come back to the conversation on absorption but are first going to touch on a few more roles of magnesium that Sarah wants to highlight. Sarah wants listeners to understand how diverse the negative impact is of insufficient magnesium.   Exercise Performance & Recovery Magnesium is also really important for sports performance and recovery. (17:18) There have been a variety of studies that show that exercise performance is compromised with insufficient magnesium. These studies have shown that any way that you can measure performance (ex: grip strength, jumping performance) is sensitive to magnesium. There are studies showing that having enough magnesium is really important for muscle recovery. Supplementation with magnesium has a fairly small effect on how muscles recover. Our bodies cannot metabolize vitamin D without magnesium. If we are taking a large amount of vitamin D and we aren't getting enough magnesium via our diet, that vitamin D stays inactive in our bodies. There have been studies showing that when patients have optimum magnesium levels, they require far lower doses of vitamin D in order to bring their vitamin D levels up. For more on magnesium and vitamin D, see here and here.   The Microbiome Some of the benefits might be mitigated through the gut microbiome as well. (19:53) There have been studies showing that a magnesium-deficient diet reduces gut microbial diversity. Some of the most important bacterial species reduce in a magnesium-deficient diet. The kidneys are really important for controlling the amount of magnesium in our blood. It looks as though we can donate magnesium to our gut microbiome when we are chronically not consuming enough magnesium. Eventually, that magnitude of the effect will diminish, but again it is another reason why getting enough magnesium into us is so important. Stacy and Sarah briefly chatted about the importance of kidney health and how it relates to your magnesium levels. High vegetable and fruit consumption, in addition to hydration, are the most important things we can do for our kidney health. There have been studies in chronic kidney disease where they have done fruit and vegetable interventions, in humans, and they have shown restoration of kidney function by diet alone. As we talk about high magnesium foods, also knowing that a lot of these are high in potassium, these are really important minerals for kidney function. If you have kidney disease, please talk to your doctor about whether or not you need to do anything special diet-wise, knowing about these intervention studies surrounding diet modifications. There is no reason to avoid potassium or magnesium-rich foods if you have healthy kidneys.   Dietary Magnesium The recommended daily allowance for magnesium is 420 milligrams for men, and 320 milligrams for women. (26:50) If we look at the highest magnesium content food, a 6 oz. serving of fresh tuna would contain 109 milligrams. And if you consume a cup of cooked spinach (which is the equivalent of 10 cups raw) that would have 157 milligrams of magnesium. The other foods that are considered magnesium powerhouses are chocolate (65 mg), banana (27 mg), avocado (58 mg), and a 1 oz. serving of almonds (77 mg). In general, things that are dark green tend to be really high in magnesium. Nuts and seeds generally have a good amount of magnesium, as well as fish. You have to be aware of your magnesium content to make sure you are getting enough.   Deficiency Then there is this whole other piece of chronic stress basically increasing our magnesium needs in a way that is not quantifiable. (29:24) Quantifying stress is a very hard thing to do in studies. However, we do know that the more stressed we are, the more magnesium we need. The standard American diet only provides only about half of the magnesium that we actually need. Studies estimate that approximately 3/4 of us in Western countries, in general, are magnesium deficient. There are also racial disparities in magnesium dietary insufficiency. There was a study published in 2018 that actually looked at dietary intakes of a wide sampling of ethnic backgrounds. They found that on average 83.3 of the participants were not meeting the recommended level of dietary magnesium intake. It was about 82.8% in white Americans, 84.4% in Hispanic Americans, and 90.6% of African Americans not getting enough magnesium. There was an 'other ethnic group' that lumped everyone else together and that was 71.8% of those people were not getting enough magnesium. This 2003 paper makes a case for lower magnesium being a mechanism behind increased hypertension and diabetes. There have been a couple of papers that are making the case that this lower magnesium intake may be one of the contributing factors to the racial disparities seen in chronic illnesses. This paper that was looking at different magnesium intakes in different cultural backgrounds, they tried to do statistical analysis to try to hone in on why there are racial disparities in magnesium deficiency. They say it was due to two factors. One factor was a socioeconomic disparity, which is the dominant factor. And the second factor was cultural differences. Stacy really appreciates that Sarah pulled that data, and finds the information to be fascinating.   Multi-Form Magnesium Supplement What is really neat about magnesium supplements is that all of these absorbable forms are bound to another thing. (36:46) So now instead of going through ion channels, we can use the amino acid transport channels to get into the body. One of the things that you can do is manipulate how magnesium is absorbed by binding it to different amino acids, and by combining forms of magnesium where you are going to take advantage of multiple different transporters. Magnesium amino acid complexes (or chelates) behave differently from magnesium salts. The strong and stable bonds between magnesium and the amino acids keep the whole molecule intact in acidic environments. For more on this, see here. When complexes travel through the intestinal tract, they bypass the ion channels. Instead, they use other transport sites called dipeptide channels. Here, the amino acid and magnesium are carried across the intestinal membrane together. There are a few key advantages to this. For one, there are far more dipeptide channels than there are ion channels in the gut. Magnesium complexes do not compete for the same ion channels used by other minerals. Another advantage is that the stable bonds protect magnesium from unfavorable chemical reactions that might lead to the creation of unabsorbable precipitates. Mineral amino acid complexes are actually quite common in nature and a natural way we get magnesium from our diet. Some of this magnesium is already bound to amino acids, but even when we consume magnesium from salts, amino acids can help! Peptides and amino acids can bind to magnesium ions and form complexes right in your body.   The Different Forms of Magnesium Taurine is an amino acid. (40:38)  When combined with magnesium, the two can have a calming effect on both mind and body. This form is promoted for improving immune function and protecting the heart. Magnesium Malate is the form of magnesium that is often used for patients who suffer from fatigue or fibromyalgia. Magnesium Threonate is the newest form of magnesium and it’s still emerging in the marketplace. It appears to absorb more easily than the others and is used for people suffering from Alzheimer’s and other neurological disorders. Magnesium Citrate is among the most bioavailable forms of magnesium, meaning that it’s more easily absorbed in your digestive tract than other forms. This combination includes citric acid, which has mild laxative properties. Magnesium Glycinate (aka Magnesium Bisglycinate) is easiest for your body to use because it absorbs this form most easily. This form is commonly recommended for people trying to correct a magnesium deficiency. Magnesium Orotate includes orotic acid, which is a natural substance involved in your body’s construction of genetic material, including DNA. It’s easily absorbed and doesn’t have the strong laxative effects characteristic of other forms. Magnesium chelate has a 90% absorption rate. And the lysine is important for growth and tissue repair, which may play a role in reducing anxiety and normalizing cortisol. Sarah explained why certain forms of magnesium work as a laxative, and which forms of magnesium you should avoid. The forms to avoid are Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Sulfate aka Epsom Salts, and Magnesium Hydroxide.   The Perfect Supplement So this is why BiOptimizers Breakthrough is so cool is because it has all seven of these forms in one supplement. (47:53) Bioptimizer Magnesium Breakthrough contains Magnesium Chelate, Magnesium Citrate, Magnesium Bisglycinate, Magnesium Malate, Magnesium L-Threonate, Magnesium Taurate, and Magnesium Orotate. Sometimes you will find magnesium supplements that will combine one or two forms, but that is it. This allows us to maximize absorption because now we are using all of these different amino acid transporters. And this allows us to not overwhelm one transporter, which would trigger us to not absorb our magnesium that well which leads to the laxative effect. So when you are using all of these transporters you are providing all of these additional amino acids that have each been shown to be beneficial in different circumstances. Stacy loves all of this information because it so clearly answers her question about why this supplement is working so well for her. This particular magnesium doesn't cause Stacy with any digestive issues. The fact that this particular supplement has a 90% absorption is one of the things that Stacy really wants to highlight. As someone who has looked into a lot of supplements, she knows that this form actually works and matters. Stacy does not like taking pills so when she does take any, she wants to make sure that they have a purpose and make a difference. We need to take a look at the supplements we are taking and make sure that they are quality. This doesn't just pertain to magnesium, but all of the supplements we are taking. In America, we are eating a diet that is deficient in nutrients, and the answer for many is to simply take a supplement. However, the actual answer should be to pull back and look at the source to investigate how we can alter our diet to get the nutrients in their food form. And if not, can we take a supplement that is more bioavailable and is more helpful.   Closing Thoughts Sarah wants to emphasize how challenging it is to get sufficient magnesium from the diet when stress is not managed. (52:53) Our listeners know that Stacy and Sarah take nutrient density very seriously, and they both work really hard to consume a nutrient-dense diet. Sarah has been taking magnesium supplements for eight years, and she has experimented with different forms. However, Sarah is super excited that Bioptimizer Magnesium Breakthrough exists. Magnesium was one of the earliest supplements she added to her diet. She really felt a huge difference when she took it just because of this aspect of the impact that chronic stress has on her body. So Sarah knew that magnesium was something that she needs. Be sure to talk to a medical professional about any supplement you want to take and run it past them. Stacy referred listeners to this podcast episode if you need to find a medical professional who you can talk to about supplements and nutrient absorption. If you haven't talked to a medical professional in a while, you may want to revisit with them to check that your regimen is still what is best for you. If you want to try BiOptimizers visit this site and use the code WHOLEVIEW10 for 10% off your order.  Thanks for listeneing! We will be back again next week! (58:31)

For All Abilities – The Podcast - Adult ADHD and Then Diagnosed with Autism with Sarah Worthy   In this episode, I interview Sarah Worthy. We discuss her life as a child with ADHD and then her diagnosis of autism in adulthood. She discusses how has navigated life and work with the diagnoses and her love of running and video games. To connect with Sarah, please  follow her on LinkedIn (Sarah Worthy).  Please subscribe to For All Abilities – The Podcast! Please follow me on Instagram @forallabilities, LinkedIn (Betsy Furler) and on Facebook (For All Abilities). Go to our website www.forallabilities.com for information on our consulting services and software that enables employers to support their employees with ADHD, Dyslexia, Learning Differences and Autism. Thanks for listening!  Betsy     Thanks for listening to For All Abilities today!    Share the podcast with your friends, they’ll thank you for it!   Get our newsletter and stay up to date! The newsletter link is on our website www.forallabilities.com   Follow me   Twitter: @betsyfurler   Instagram: @forallabilities   Facebook: @forallabilites   LinkedIn: @BetsyFurler   Website: www.forallabilities.com   Full Transcript from Otter.ai    Betsy Furler  0:04   Hi, everybody, welcome back to for all abilities the podcast. This podcast is meant to inform the world of the amazing things people with neuro diverse brains are doing for our world. This is Betsy Furler. I'm your host, and I'm so excited to have my friend Sarah worthy with me today.   Sarah Worthy  0:24   Hi, Sarah. How are you? I'm great, Betsy. Thanks for having me here today.   Betsy Furler  0:28   Yes. So Sarah is also a female entrepreneur. She's founded a SaaS software company, and she's going to tell you all about that. But first, Sara, tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little intro.   Sarah Worthy  0:45   It's always tough to do an intro for me. I have been had a really exciting career over the past 15 plus years. Most of its been working inside growth stage technology startups across telecommunications hardware software. You know, the internet is has come out. So I've really gotten a chance to see the inner workings of everything that makes you know today's world possible. You know, I guess that's the nutshell of what I am. I'm also a mom, and a runner, avid, and an avid ADHD spectrum person.   Betsy Furler  1:21   So, tell us a little bit about how you What were you like as a little girl,   Sarah Worthy  1:26   I was everything you would typically expect from somebody who is later diagnosed with ADHD. But nobody ever caught it back then. But I was I was also very smart and incredibly smart. I was in gifted and talented programs. From the time I was in fourth grade. And I guess even third grade I was in a small group in that classroom of two other kids. They did all the accelerated math and things like that. You know, I was also really hyper getting outside running around. I was out catching tadpoles in springs. You know, getting dirty and making mud pies was one of the funniest stories I like to tell from my childhood that kind of segues into how I became an entrepreneur. I was always trying to sell things on street corners, not just the lemonade stand like I did the lemonade stand once I was like, oh, but all the other kids are doing that. So I had been I had a toy sale a cop stopped by and said I couldn't sell toys on my curb without a permit so i'd shipped really nice about it. And so then I had an earthworm fish he said, You know cuz I watch cartoons. I don't know. I was like eight maybe at this time. And I thought well, there's there's people go fishing so and we have a bunch of earthworms in our yard. So I dug up a bunch of earthworms and was trying to sell them not one of them sold by the way. I did put them all back because I was grew up in San Antonio, Texas, and there's no place to go fishing and you don't use earthworms for bait I found out that's just in cartoons. But I was always doing little things like that, that I think were kind of interesting. I definitely had a non traditional childhood and now way. I also grew up with a computer, which you know, for most kids is something today, they're starting to have the, you know, you're not that much different from me. You know, growing up, the internet didn't exist, but I had computers, computer games, dial up modem, that kind of thing. So I was always out there getting into things, really curious about things and exploring them. And I offer all my memories of my childhood are kind of mixed because I also had a lot of trauma, that result that was there from my and not being diagnosed as a kid and I was called a tomboy. I was called a difficult child. As I became a teenager, the meltdown started, and I didn't get a lot of support and that end, but I had my running. I had I was really great at sports. I was really great at school, and I took solace in that and just just plugged away. And then I went off to college at 16 at a early, gifted, talented program up at the Texas Academy, math and science and moved out of the house and from there I Guess I just was an adult and college started. And so there I don't know, is that a good initial story of my childhood I get into?   Betsy Furler  4:07   Yeah. So when did you start running? So you so you know what, I'll just keep the listeners in that. And before we started recording, Sarah and I were talking about running because I've been a person who has literally never run and my wife and I decided that I need to start running now. Because I'm walking a lot during this COVID-19 stay at home and I realized as life becomes more normal, I'm probably not going to have enough time so I need to start running. And I really started walking so much because I was getting so restless being in the house and I do not have diagnoseable ADHD but I am a very active person as far as I love to get out and talk to people do things. I'm always multitasking and doing stuff. So anyway, so how old were you when you started running?   Sarah Worthy  4:56   So well as my mom would tell. It is Running before I was walking   Betsy Furler  5:03   you're one of those you just went straight to the running.   Sarah Worthy  5:05   Yeah. And I was doing that by like nine months of age and and I have some pretty early childhood memories. One of them I was maybe four, and they hit so this is what I was like they had to install these special locks on all the doors to the house that were really up high so that I couldn't leave the house I learned very quickly how to get a broomstick and pop them off. And so again, I was like four and and because I wasn't in preschool in preschool yet and so it's right before then, but I decided to take my dog for a walk to the grocery store one day and you know I grew up in San Antonio nice little area. It was maybe a mile from there wasn't a mile mile and a half. It wasn't that far. But But I walked with a dog I went into the store let the dog tied up outside. I got some gum and a binder I got a kite one of this disposable plastic kites and stuff. And I just walked out of the store I put all five pieces of this chewing gum in my mouth at once. Like I remember this clear as day and got the dog and I was walking away and a police officer in the parking lot stopped me. Because here's this little kid. I just did all this effort. I had no concept of any of that none of this was intentional. It was just   Betsy Furler  6:20   go to the store and you get stuff and then you leave.   Sarah Worthy  6:22   Yeah, and luckily I was really cute as a little girl so I could get away with murder practically I never have murdered anybody. But I could have probably gotten away with it how to try. But But he so he pulled me in the car. And it was so funny. Looking back on it now because I was really like was like, I was a little scared and intimidated, but not like super bright. I still didn't think I'd done anything wrong. I had no concept of that. But he said he's like asking me questions. But he said I'm going to give you a lie detector test and I'm going to know if you're lying and I guess he's used to kids like this or something. But looking back, I realized a few years later, a little older. All he was doing was doing this switchboard thing because he had coffee Cars if you've never seen me inside of them even back then they were all gadget ended up as he's just flipping a switch to this light that would turn red or turned off depending on what he thought I was doing. So he obviously does not lie. That's funny. Yeah, of course, I told him all the truth because I, what did I know better? And so he taught took me in my dog band at home and my parents at this point, were frantic. My grandmother and grandfather were raising me and my grandmother had gone to water the Golan or he was on the phone with I don't know what it happened when I slipped out. But these these things happen all the time for me. But besides always leaving the house running around, the energy had to be going somewhere. And I was very lucky. I lived in a neighborhood where you could go out and do these things. Our cross country team ran the neighborhoods after schools together for training. So I'd remember my childhood mostly being outside running around the neighborhoods and like you and I were talking about, I mean, sometimes I walk it's no big deal. Right? Right. I didn't learn to ride a bike until I was 12. And so, which was a little odd in my neighborhood, all my friends, kids had bicycles. And I actually never had one until one of my friends got a new bike for Christmas. And she sold me her old one for, like, $10. And then she taught she taught me how to ride my bike. And so Wow, so I've ridden a bike every now and then, but I never really became that comfortable with it. So you know, there's always trade offs, I guess, if you spend all your life running.   Betsy Furler  8:26   Yeah, yeah. So So you went off to college at a really early age. And what were you like in college? Were you a more academic time of college kid more social kind of college kids? Like what? What was the college experience like for you?   Sarah Worthy  8:42   Oh, so it was a little bit. So when I was with Tam's, it was a little different at first. So the first two years the Texas Academy math and science is a program that takes in high school juniors through their junior and senior year and you get college AP credit, while simultaneously getting high school credit for the same class. So like I would take biology, hp, with, you know, other college students, but I would get high school credit as well. And during that time you lived in the dorms but every once a month you had to go home to your parents and they had curfews and all of that. So I think it would have been probably a little bit more like boarding school might have been I never went to school, but a little bit like that. And it's really funny because I kept in touch and I've seen old yearbook photos. I was never really you know, I look back I've always felt I I consider myself an extrovert and I really like people. But I really, especially as a teenager was not comfortable with myself. I was dealing with an eating disorder at that time. And I had a boyfriend and I had a few friends but it was a small group of people where I felt accepted no matter what I did. And I was very lucky to have that group of people there because there were a lot of moments during my teenage years when I was suicidal. I never, I never attempted it. But I got really close a couple of times and And so, you know it again it goes. I think a lot of it comes back when I look back. I feel very lucky to have come through that, obviously. But it was certain people incidents like getting into tamps really helped when I was back in a regular school, I was bullied all the time by the kids at school. The teachers all adored me. So it was that I got the teacher's pet. But I didn't understand, especially the teacher, I had no clue about all of these things that apparently everybody else knows. And everybody just thought there was that I wasn't trying or that I was intentionally rebellious or something like that. And not I was like, I just never I felt like I went through that period in a fog. When I got off to regular college after I was an additional department was living on my own. I was actually one of those people. I went to my classes, but then I also had a full time job to pay for things. And so school was almost like my part time activity. You know,   Betsy Furler  10:57   like, Yeah, I was   Sarah Worthy  10:58   I was doing 15 days. Our course loads, but I was scheduling my classes, you know, as much as I could just, you know, two days or three days a week. So I wasn't on campus except for those times. And in the rest of time I was at work. And so at that point, I it, it was more, I think, if you were someone going back to school in your 30s or 40s, you probably have found that college experience, I wasn't drinking, I wasn't part of a fraternity. You know, like, I was going to a lot of therapy at that point to get my eating disorder issues resolved. I got married. So all of those kinds of things that are kind of a little bit different. And I don't regret it at all. I look at a lot of the damage that some of my friends have done in college to their bodies, and I'm like I lucked out.   Betsy Furler  11:44   Yeah, when I was in college, I was hanging out with my three or 400 closest friends and my my best friend from college just found her old calendar from college the other day and it's like she was like Betsy, we went to a lot of parties because so On this calendar, she wrote down like, you know, this party on this day and, you know this party on Monday. Well, now we had our sorority meeting on Monday. So, Tuesday, this party Wednesday, that party Thursday, this party, Friday, that party Saturday, another party Sunday study for whatever tests that and I went to a real academic, academically focused college and obviously, I did attend classes too. But, um, yeah, we, we spent a lot of time like I say, with our closest three to 400 friends, and it's so it's so interesting to me when I hear about other people's college experiences. And, you know, it's another way where people are so different and can kind of still, like, get to the same end point through a really, really different experience. Yeah, well,   Sarah Worthy  12:52   it's funny you say that, I mean, the first, the first year and a half or so after Tam's. I was pre med and just work in school was everything I was focused on, I don't think I went to a single party of any kind during that time. And that was also around the time my grandfather passed away. So it was a really hard time. And I really, I don't think I have any friends from that time in school. And then when I changed my major to philosophy, and in fact, part of like, when I took an intro to philosophy class, which was required for my degree, I just fell in love. And I just I was, like I said, I'm changing my major, I got a business major as well, because I knew with a philosophy degree, I'd never get a job. I was like, I will get a job with this. And so I've got to be practical as well. So I got the business degree as well. But the philosophy classes that was probably one of the best parts of my college years was being in those classes, and debating with other people. And philosophical debate is not like a political debate, and a lot of people don't know right, and I wish they did. I really wish they did. Because a lot of times they think that when I'm, I'm talking about an issue and it becomes You know what, I think As a bloodless philosophical debate, they start to feel like oh, it's conflict or something. But in those classes again, I felt like I was with a group of people that they enjoyed talking about really deep subjects. They enjoyed that back and forth. We were there to learn if you made them if you weren't correct, if the other person had a better argument or made a good point, it was actually very validating to me to be in that environment, because it helped me be challenged and to grow my business classes. Meanwhile, like my economics classes, one of my professors put all of this old tests in the library. So I just went and looked at it. I never I went to none of my classes that semester, just for tests. And I got, like, 100 kids in the class, but I ended up he because he had an attendance policy. I was like, I'll take a B because my time right, you're not ever elsewhere. Right? Because it was it wasn't challenging to me, and I really needed to be in so like with Tam's with philosophy. Like I have always had to be in environments like that where they push me to be better all the time, or I just get bored and I give up and I just, I find something else to do. I played a lot of video games in college, I still do. And a lot of people think of that as a frivolous thing. For me, I've really been able to utilize a lot of my experiences, from video games to make better user experiences in my software, which is something I think we sorely need today in business. It's something that's fun to use, not just, you know, a spreadsheet.   It's not a waste of my time, I guess. I don't know.   Betsy Furler  15:28   So back to the philosophy classes and all of that, and then I want to talk about gaming. And so my small private liberal arts college, all of our classes were pretty much like that. So we would have I mean, I had classes with six people. And, and we would, we would discuss all sorts of issues and very controversial issues at times and I took a lot of religion classes and, and I would say, Well, you know, like to some people in the class very well. rageous statements about religion because I, I believe God loves us all. And so and you know, there be like a kid who grew up Southern Baptist too has a different opinion on that and, and but it was so amazing to be able to sit in those classes and for me to listen to their opinion and then to listen to my opinion, and, and not have a feeling at all if I've got to change you, um, but just kind of learning from each other and taking in all of those different worldviews on all sorts of different topics. And I think it's something that, you know, you and I and other people who had that experience in college or earlier in life can now really take to this climate that we're in now and be able to take in information, synthesize that ourselves and make up our own opinion, and you know, come up with our own opinion on what's happening, but also be able to understand that just because somebody doesn't agree with us It's okay. It's, you know, oh yeah, that that happens in the world.   Sarah Worthy  17:04   And you actually went to the same college my mom and my stepdad went to because you went to Stephen F. Austin, right?   Betsy Furler  17:11   No, I went to Austin college and Sherman.   Sarah Worthy  17:13   Yeah, that's one. Sorry. I used to think I didn't go there. My parents did. But But yeah, no, I didn't know that when Way up north of in the North Texas, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's where they went to. I visited their campus once because my mom was taking me up to Tam's, which is in Denton, Texas. And she was like, I want to go visit so we drove up there as part of it. And that was my first trip to Oklahoma. We cross the border at some river lake or something. Yeah, yeah. So I I'm sure that that's partly where I get some of this because I was raised at home. And there was a lot of fighting between my mom and stepdad but my grandparents, not at all. But my mom was very open minded, very liberal, very much willing to sit down and have that kind of discussion with you on something thing is she always called herself a Christian Buddhist kind of, you know, so yeah, I just I just want to throw that in. I think that that's one of the reasons why you and I get each other. So it is exactly what we need today. You're You're very much correct there. I think too much of today's political environment is being right. And in your opinion, rather than understanding reality, and this is why I love philosophy, philosophy is something that allows you to see that there are, there's one reality that we all share and connect to it. And we perceive it differently from one another. And it is in learning about the bigger picture and my my favorite parable in the world is the story of the blind men and the elephant. I don't know if you're familiar with that. You can do blind men and the elephant and there's like a Wikipedia page and all that. But it's this ancient parable and there's slight variations of it. But effectively this elephant is brought to this village in like rural India a long, long time ago. These three wise men, elders who are blind, are brought to see this elephant and experienced the elephant for the first time ever. And one of them's at the trunk. And it's like, oh, it's long and skinny with some moves around. It must be like a snake. And so you hear like, how he's taking the story away. I'm really abbreviating this because we have 30 minutes. One of them's on the leg of the elephant. And he's like, oh, an elephant must be like, a giant tree trunk. And so an elephant must be a tree or something. And then another one is a year and feels how wispy and thinks of it like a fan or something. And, And that, to me, is what we really we need people to be understanding. We're all blind men. And we're trying to discuss one reality that none of us can can see. And that's something that throughout my life has really helped carry my mentality. And it's so important, not just politically but just in my life as an innovator, as somebody who's supposed to go in and meet her in technology. You're not a computer programmer per se. And a lot of my job has been helping get designers and business people and customers and executives and programmers and everything all in a room to agree on something. And I don't think you can do that. If you go in with the idea that you're you're the only way that That's right.   Betsy Furler  20:16   Yeah. And it kind of leads back to the topic of neuro diversity of all of our brains really are different. You know, some of us have brains that fit a little more into the box of norm, but nobody's quote unquote, normal, and by the definition of the norm, and so we all have brains that work differently, and it's so vital to understand that and to honor the different ways people think I mean, I have through this COVID-19 thing, I've had people unfriend me on Facebook, because they don't agree. And I'm not even posting anything political really, I mean, super moderate, but   Sarah Worthy  20:55   you post stuff.   Betsy Furler  20:58   Right? And it's like Okay, like that. That's not about me, them unfriending me isn't about me. It's about how they view the world and that's okay. It's like, that is absolutely fine with me. We all have to see the world in our own way, but I would love it if we could all you know, try to understand the other person's point of view as well, which I think I do think that's what Austin college taught me. And it sounds like then Austin college taught her mom that and then she raised you in that way, which makes me feel good about my parenting as well.   Sarah Worthy  21:35   So it's so important and we need we need more of that we need less black and white in the world because if you look around the world is never been in black and white. Although just I was thinking about this. In the middle of the night I woke up and I was like, I have this thing tomorrow before I fall back asleep. And but and I've seen but black and white. I was like, oh, but except at night. Isn't that weird? And I'm looking around my room in the dark. There's a little light from outside and everything is like great night. Have you ever noticed that?   Betsy Furler  22:01   Oh, yeah. And it's really not not Stark black and white even at night. We have Shades of Grey.   Sarah Worthy  22:08   Yeah, but but the thing is everything is still colored. But at night we don't have enough light to see it. And that's what I was thinking. I was like that that a lot of times and that's really where I think when we talk about neuro diversity, there's there's this thing of like, well, just us you can't see it. Like maybe for you The world is Shades of Grey all the time, in your daily life. Like maybe you don't have all these other things like you know, you're not transgender, for example, you just don't know what that's like. And like, you know, and so that's a that's a dark place that doesn't have light on it in your perception of reality. But somebody else has a light shining brightly on that spot and understands it and can see it in full color. Again, this is just where it goes back to the elephant parable. I just think that that's one of the most amazing things about my brain. And it's why I think it's it's really changed my perception have so I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 20. On.   Betsy Furler  23:01   Oh yeah, let's talk about your diagnosis. And then don't forget to talk about gaming and how you kind of use that. And to cope with the world. So I've talked about, tell us a little bit about your diagnosis. I'm putting the elephant and the blind man story in the show notes.   Sarah Worthy  23:16   Yeah, you'll, you'll love that parable. It's awesome. It's so applicable. And then you can make segues into let's talk about the elephant in the room. It's so funny anyway. So So yeah, I'm, you know, it's funny. I don't know how I didn't struggle as much with my ADHD in college. But I did. I mean, I changed my major three times. It took me five and a half years to get through college. Thank goodness, I started young. And I took a semester off at one point because I was also dealing with an eating disorder at the time, and I ended up hospitalized for a little while and just totally like regular hospital for a week from dehydration and stuff. But then, wow. But then I needed to take some time off and I think I cut a semester down to like the minimum number of hours. So I'll let you take it. Because I was on financial aid and stuff, and I didn't want to lose it. But But I so it was a struggle to deal with it. But I want to hear other people. It's just the worst. But then I was 29 and pregnant with my son. And it was I had a friend at the time that I knew through work, who also had died. She been formally diagnosed. And this was the first woman I think I've ever met, that I probably had met others, but she this is what he knew and was diagnosed and everything and she was diagnosed ADHD with so much in common. And she just suggested one day she's like, have you thought about this? And so I went home and took some because we had quizzes. So I took a quiz online and it was like, Yeah, you're ADHD you should see a doctor. So I took an and I took it, I went to see a doctor, I got a formal diagnosis at 29. And they said it's actually really common for women who are pregnant to get that diagnosis because something about all the pregnancy hormones and chemicals just makes it where we can no longer cope. It All of the abilities are now gone. And so that's when we can't mask anymore. We can't hide it anymore. And that diagnosis was really crucial. I've been guiding said, I mean, I've been misdiagnosed with so many things starting at 16 I was diagnosed with depression. And I was put on like, back to back at least six different antidepressant medications. None of them worked. Some of them made me sleep a lot. It was just really tear it what made me have these hallucinating dreams when I was falling asleep.   Betsy Furler  25:29   Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it was terrible.   Sarah Worthy  25:32   I mean, they were kind of cool. I've never done acid, but I feel like that that drug was basically like,   so So I mean, they weren't traumatized or anything, but they were not helpful. And then it's an after that, you know, I was diagnosed with social anxiety and in a number of other things. The ADHD diagnosis Finally, I think got me on that path. And suddenly I don't talk about too much What about but I'm trying to because it's really important I do this. But then last question. I was formally diagnosed with autism, or one a few months ago. Uh huh. Or a few years ago, COVID time, but   Betsy Furler  26:09   yeah, really. But   Sarah Worthy  26:11   But and I've actually suspected for because of going through this entrepreneur journey, it's real clear that there's something that I don't perceive this happening around other people. And it's never been more clear than during this time as a founder when you're trying to build a team and fundraise and get early customers. There's if you find out every weakness that you have every bad habit, it's all Yeah, you're going through this so true, right? It's all highlighted. And and he's like, I can read. You know, I have Dale Carnegie's book on my nightstand, How to Win Friends and Influence People. The thing is so worn, I've had that thing for 10 years. Most of it still doesn't make sense to me. And everyone loves to read and I'm like, I don't think I understand. And so I and then I saw a movie with Claire Danes about Temple Grandin. Research and then I started reading about actual Temple Grandin and Temple Grandin has this white paper or whatever you want to call it out there about Visual Thinking. And I started reading I was like, that's my brain right there because I live inside my my head. And I, I hate to say this, but I feel bad for the people who can't you know, there's trade offs, but I don't know how I would live without my imagination. I can I can close my eyes and I can create a universe in my mind, I can manipulate models, I can follow all of these different details and in very clear color and sound. And that's how I function and of course social stuff with between people. I'm still trying to figure out that kind of thing. I look for people like you to be my friends because you guys tolerate my missteps and   Betsy Furler  27:52   we have fascinating conversations about like, how you perceive the world and how I perceive the world and what I contact Just like for you and what eye contact is like for me like it's really good so it's really fascinating.   Sarah Worthy  28:07   It will To me it is because all How can you get through three plus decades of your life? Not knowing this? So yeah dancin imagine like, I thought I was just like everybody else and I thought and perceived and sense everything like normal people. But it turns out I don't you know, I don't even know what that means. So it's I'm still in a very overwhelmed like state like even though it's been something where I felt pretty confident in the past couple of years. even getting the formal diagnosis, it wasn't so much a shock to me, it was more of like, Well, how do I tell people because they're not gonna write. And it's been reassuring. I live in data data, my best friend. And I say that because when you are in a position where you're so different from everyone else around you, you need that that internet and that data to see Oh, I'm not The only person there's not something wrong with me I'm just different and I grew up left handed so that might also help because already I was in that small minority oftentimes as the only left handed person in class I got the one beat I got all through grade school was in handwriting and I still to this day protest that grade because not one was left handed. So not one of them knows how to do a left handed   Betsy Furler  29:23   kid. And you know, that was when I my dad is left handed too so I did have some understanding until the lefties but he was old enough that he was forced to write with his right hand and early on a school and then his mother was like, absolutely not. He's writing with his left hand you know, and but then when I have Sam and he was it was apparent from like 18 months old that he was a lefty, and right away, and then you start realizing like everything is like we need left hand as little kids scissors because even though they say they're for both left and right, they are 12 paper and you Get final   Sarah Worthy  30:01   scissors because they stopped like five of them and there's more than five looking people in the city.   Betsy Furler  30:07   Right and then I'm writing his name all over them because they'll steal them right? Yeah. Do not take the left handed scissors and just all sorts of lefty you know baseball golf tennis like you know then you're using like the coach's left is right handed and oh my goodness. Yeah. So yeah, that is it's so different. Being a lefty is so much different than I perceived as a righty. Until I was parenting one. Yeah,   Sarah Worthy  30:34   and that's exactly I feel like right now, the best analogy when we talk about neurodiversity, is that you have right handed people and that's like 80% of the population. But then you saw that 20% of people that are neuro diverse are left handed or that are ambidextrous and in some way and and I think the world of righties doesn't realize it until they have to because and that's like any minority majority relationship. Till the majority is faced with the problem, like personally, they just don't. They just don't have any idea about what the struggle is. But meanwhile the people are in that minority are like struggling every single day. I mean, can openers for God's sakes like, come on. And she has left handed person, you're more likely to die by using a power tool, then as a right handed person. Oh, wow. Yeah, they're curious because they're not designed for us. But it being left handed i think is one of the things that has helped and kind of for me, I think having about 10 years between ADHD and the autism diagnosis, like like having that gap there to adjust, I think helped a little bit. But honestly, I really wish is like, I look at kids today who are getting especially the girls when a girl like Greta Thornburg, I am in all inspired by her story, because look at what she's done, but she had support and she struggled. I mean, they don't go into too many of the details, but you hear the interviews with the parents talking about Yeah, her childhood isn't that easy? Right, but I just think Wow, amazing. If I've done all of this, and I'm able to do so much right now, just imagine if I'd had that support at a young age instead of the struggles, as battles as being disruptive and all that.   Betsy Furler  32:11   And in the support, I think also the support   Sarah Worthy  32:14   of   Betsy Furler  32:16   parents who have that, who know their child has that diagnosis, but know that they can still do anything that they want to in their life, but they might take a different path and having to understand and, and support their child in that. I'm sorry, but if Trump can be our president, an autistic kid is certainly capable of doing anything.   Sarah Worthy  32:38   I mean, look at the world we live in today. Like there's so many people out there and one of the Richard Branson's dyslexic, and he's somebody else I'd greatly admire in the entrepreneur community of what he's done. And it's, you know, it's one of those things where I just look at what what people have done already. There's there's always other knowing that but there's this this cognitive dissonance that people have about Go. Einstein was probably autistic and blah all these you know, Newton or what have all these other people who are geniuses are supposedly like that. But then they're these parents are like, but my kid, he doesn't talk until you seven. He's never gonna make it. I mean, like that's like the most weird thing. Right? Right? I got C's and D's and F's, right until right?   Betsy Furler  33:21   I just went, you don't do well with academic school, and really has no impact. Like, it really doesn't matter. And I have said this on the podcast in the past. So this is a bit of a repeat for my listeners. But I've especially as an entrepreneur, I have had to undo things that I learned that made me a really good student. Yeah. Because a lot of what made me a really good student and just a really easy child to raise. And, you know, I don't mean good students, and with the academic part as much as just, you know, following the rules and responsible and doing what's expected. have me a lot of that. I've had to change my narrative about that in order to be a good entrepreneur. Because once you become an entrepreneur, and like you were saying, first of all, you find out all your faults, because we're none of us are good at everything and, and it suddenly becomes very glaring that, you know, you have, you don't do well in this one area. And but you also have to be able to really stand up for yourself in a way that you've never had to before. I've never had to before and, and really go against the grain of what a lot of people are expecting of you.   Sarah Worthy  34:36   Yeah. And to your point, I think that's exactly why we see I don't I don't think people who are on the spectrum or who are dyslexic or any of the nerd, I don't think we're better entrepreneurs. Compared to other people, I think there's more of us who become entrepreneurs because like you said, We grew up having to go against the grain by just existing like, right There, there was no fitting into the level that that someone who isn't on the spectrum could do. And so it just comes more naturally. I don't want to say now it comes. We're more used to having to do that to get home. So we just do it. And I know a lot of times I've just been very bold and people call me aggressive. I hate that, by the way, because when I'm aggressive, you'll know it, I'll become a weapon and teeth will be there. I mean, like, I say, like, there's a big difference between aggressive and being bold and assertive. Huge difference. So is it but but it hurts when I get called those things, because it's coming from a place where I think, you know, it's those social things. I don't know what to do with them. And it's great. And the best thing about my diagnosis has been knowing that knowing that I don't know that and I have to step more carefully. Yeah, sometimes you walk into, you know, the bull in the china shop thing that's, that would describe you as a child. Perfectly Yeah,   Betsy Furler  36:00   yeah. Well let's you know, so we're getting close on time. Yeah, I'm being going too long but I want you to talk really briefly about video games because so many kids who are on the spectrum love video games and I think they get so much out of it and it's such a positive thing but it's frequently thought of is so negative. So I would love for you to just touch briefly on video games and then tell my audience how they can find you if they want to connect with you.   Sarah Worthy  36:29   Yeah, yeah, so I mean my entire life I've played video games starting to the ones where you're just typing to a terminal go north go west anyone listening who's played this understands these type of games, the rest you know, you can look this up it's, they're long gone. But you know, they're classics. But Nintendo's have been my favorite The Legend of Zelda. I tell this story to everybody. So I'm sure you've heard it too. But like playing the game Zelda growing up and even though I am playing Breath of the Wild right now and I just cannot emit like video games with So far, but the game is Zelda, you know, it's so it's so much easier because in the real world, if you're someone on the spectrum, there's all of these invisible things that you don't know, between people. But in video games, that component has been removed, you know, and so you could go and you you get you talk to a villager and they say, Well, I can't help you save the princess. But I can give you some rubies to help you by a sword. If you find my cow that got lost, you go find the cow and then you talk to another villager and they do something else, you get a sword. And it's this step by step process. And that's exactly what entrepreneurship is like, you have no idea you're suddenly waking up in this world of I'm an entrepreneur on with with nothing and you have to like go talk to people to find out. So I think that it helps when when you are confused about what to do it at least tells you here's just do these things and trust the process, kind of like go talk to people even if you don't know what to say or do. So I think that that helps. But another component of video games I think a lot of people miss is that you know, when you're autistic, you need structure to a level that other people don't because the world is amazingly bright and loud. And it's like being at a rave 24 seven. And that's not exactly an app that's more I'm trying to think of like maybe being in a horse race stadium wall array this going on and there's a football game on or something Oh, just a dog. It just, there's so much and so having that structure, like the quest log, going in order, it really helps you figure out how to move through things. It gives me a sense of count like some days like I'm like, Well, if you know I do all of this maddening things, but then I spend two hours playing this game and I could relax because I I now no longer have to sort out all of these unknowns that I'm going to get wrong. Because being on the spectrum is about making you know way more mistakes every day. Then you ever understood you even made because nobody wants to tell you Everyone wants to Be nice, stop being nice to people on the spectrum Be kind, do not be nice. We hate it. I'm in a group right now write about this all the time. Like, why do they ask us how things are going if they don't really want   Betsy Furler  39:11   to know the answer?   Sarah Worthy  39:14   Right? Like don't ask us those questions.   And so video games provide that kind of thing. But what I love about them in terms of work, since we're wrapping up to is is the way I've seen them progress and you can go in and play these games and explore world. It provides an experience where it's catering to you and what you what you need to do to get to the next step. And we don't do that in today's world, we leave everything completely ambiguous. And I think there are a ton of people who are, you know, quote, neurotypical who could really benefit from a life not not this like completely structured but when you go to work every day, expectations are very unclear and videos. You hear this all the time when we talk about employee engagement managers don't really know what they want. They just want Money and success and so forth. But they don't really know how to lay this out. And when you when you play a lot of games, you start to understand then how to build those mechanics and build game that I haven't made any famous games or anything but of course in my computer classes, I've developed small games and I've thought about how I would do it differently. And it really gives you a perspective on where the world could be much better for everyone if we brought more of those elements in and people are thinking about video games as some sort of negative but you know, they used to when books first came out way long before any of us were alive. They thought books were dangerous, okay, and they frivolous and all of that when television or radio came out people think that and the same person who will spend all day on Sunday just watching football is gonna then in most people watch football also play video games. I'm sure this isn't exactly true, but but you know that the parents are thinking this is going to ruin my kid but it's not that I think some of the gains Like Grand Theft Auto that kind of thing. I think you know, certainly those are for adults. I just and honestly I'm of the mindset that you're you what you feed into your brain just like your body like if you eat junk if you watch junk if you play garbage violent games, then that's that's what's gonna come out of you right? Right and that's that's what you become so it's for me it's more of just I like this was all this one my favorite more I like that. I've always been a Nintendo fan. I'm not plugging Nintendo but I am in right now. I just add to this animal crossing, I just started playing that this last week with my son, and they have something I think everyone on the spectrum should will enjoy this especially the kids because they have these emotion things that you can do with your village neighbors. And so you can express a greeting or delight or laughter or so forth. And so it's it's a I feel like I'm like this game is teaching social skills between people without even like making it an obvious thing. I do get to The villagers all had personalities. And he talked to them too much. They get annoyed things like that. So it's almost like, like, perfect for people like me.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Genesis 18:12-15 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” 13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.” 

Calum:Today I'm joined by the wonderful Sarah Best from In 2 Great. We were talking this morning about the Starbucks challenge that you might have remembered from a year and 1/2 2 years ago. People constantly paid it forward and would like to do the same thing, but with HR professionals. So Sarah's graciously started to get this kicked off. Please tell us a little bit about our HR practitioner, who's just doing wonderful work right now.        Sara:Thank you, Calum. I am so happy to call out Dr Sheri Caldwell, who currently serves as the VP of HR for Northstar Blue Scope Steel. Sheri has always been the epitome of professionalism and excellence in HR, but along with that, she has brought to the table incredible integrity, energy, fun and a certain indelible style. Anybody who knows Sheri would appreciate that she is always matched to the T and looks phenomenal. But she's just a really dedicated, diligent hard worker. She's always after results, what she does that with and through people. So I just wanted to call out Sherry. She came to mind immediately when I thought about who's a rock star in HR and sherry I'm gonna throw this your way. Give you a chance in the next couple of days to call out somebody you designate an HR rockstar. Love you Sheri!Calum: Sara, that was fantastic and for anyone else that is watching this and listening to this. If you want to get in on this please send us a note to myself or Sara. Just say, hey, you know what we would like to do something. Or do this on your own, right? Just set up a quick Zoom meeting record it and send it out HR and Payroll professionals tend to be overworked, underappreciated anyway, and with everything that is going on right now we just wanted to send a little bit of love your way. So Sara thank you so much. I think we'll just keep on paying it forward. Hopefully every day, even on the weekends. Send it over here. This is a 7 day a week operation over here right now. All right. Talk to you soon. Bye now.

When Sarah Bowling saw two Ethiopian baby girls that were abandoned in a field. Heart of compassion broke when the orphanage could not afford to take them in. Someone needed to step in and protect the least of these. So Sarah started Saving Moses.Her AlongTheWay moments include…- Basketball - TV ministry with Mom, Marilyn Hickey- Reluctant Mission Trip to Ethiopia- Baby on a Bed in a Brothel- Saving MosesSarah’s Infosavingmoses.orgSarah on RealLifehttps://youtu.be/WF0js0jpb2MAlongTheWay LinksJoin My Email ListJohnAlongTheWay@gmail.comMore episodes and Social links for AlongTheWayWatch episodes of My TV show RealLifeSupport the show (https://mailchi.mp/4657de6b487f/alongtheway)

We asked and you answered! Listeners sent in their audio to let us know what's going on in the diabetes community right now.  It's a tough and stressful time, but you're not alone. Listen to stories and thoughts from people from the US, Saudi Arabia(!) and of all different ages. Truly a time for Diabetes Connections. Want to send in your audio? Here's how - blog post  Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcript: Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes five people who have diabetes by Real Good Foods, real food you feel good about eating, and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Unknown Speaker  0:20 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:26 How is everybody doing? I'm not exactly sure how to even start these episodes anymore. We're not really doing regular episodes, full episodes of Diabetes Connections. But I didn't want to wait until I'm doing a full episode or a regular episode to let you hear what is in this one. So hi, I'm your host Stacey Simms. You know that and just like probably the vast majority of you almost everybody listening. I'm home. I'm very, very grateful to be home with my family. My daughter came home from college and you know, my son's at home. school my husband often works at home. In fact, he almost always works from home unless he is traveling for business. So he's either on the road or in the house. And I'm so grateful that he hadn't been traveling a lot this year already. And you know, we're very fortunate that he can work from home. So what have we been doing? Well, I will share with you I may have mentioned this on a previous episode, we moved recently, just across town, not the best timing because I do have a house to sell now, but we will be fine. We will figure that out. But in the meantime we have a house just set up we have lots of things to unpack. We have lots to keep us busy. We spent yesterday cleaning the house we've been in for about 10 days. And we just did the regular type cleaning that you would do you know dusting laundry, that kind of stuff. I can't say it was a lot of fun, but it was certainly something to do and we realized we were missing a few things including a broom. Apparently our broom did not make it my husband said it was trashed on the way out of the old house. So add broom to the list of things that we are picked up at the grocery store when we had to go out the next time, it's kind of a weird thing to have in your grocery store list. But you know, we don't want to be running around town to different places. I don't even know what's open right now. Got our broom. So my husband who is the much more fastidious cleaner in the family was very happy with that. Our dog is very happy that we're all home. I think like most dogs right now, she's pretty confused as to why the heck everybody is in the house all the time and why we are walking her and living with her. My daughter and I have started doing yoga. we're grabbing a YouTube channel and just trying out some different yoga classes online. I've been taking yoga in person for about a year and a half. But I'm certainly not very good at it. But it's fun to do with my daughter. But our dog is super confused and she's coming in there with us and wondering why we're on the floor and was very concerned. But now she's calmed down. She just kind of lays there with us while we do yoga. And Benny I think like most 15 year old has been keeping really busy on his phone, facetiming all his friends. He was taking these long bike rides. Before everything got shut down, he was by himself. You know, he wasn't with other people. But he's staying home now. And I think that's why. So that's our situation. But I wanted to share more of your situation. And that's what this episode is all about. A few days ago, I put out a call I, you might have seen the graphic, I put it out on social media, and it said, stuck at home, share your voice. And I really wasn't sure if anybody would respond, right? I was trying to make it easy. Just use your phone and tell me what's going on in your world. I did put out a few prompts. I'll talk about that in a moment. But a bunch of people sent in their audio and that's what this episode is going to be just a short episode to share some other voices from the diabetes community. And then in a couple of days, I will be putting out another episode our next full regular episode, whatever I'm calling them these days. I'm excited about that because I was able to talk to just a great guy, a chef with a child with type one he's an adult child is type one now, but he was diagnosed very young and Mark Been a chef his whole career. And we talked about what are we cooking now that we're stuck at home? It was a really fun interview. And I'll be sharing that in just a couple of days. I don't know if you can hear it, but I feel like my voice is not that great right now. It is allergy season here. I mean, it's always terrible. And then, you know, I feel like if I'm coughing or sniffling, gosh, you know, I mean, I'm just home, there's nobody to look at me, give me a nasty look or worry about me, but it really is just just allergies right now. So I apologize if you're hearing any of that in my voice. And if you're going through it, you know exactly what I mean. We're just you know, we're all worried we're all on a bit of an edge. So rather than hear from me the whole time, let's get to the people who sent the audio in. Let me just set this up a little bit. Some of the audio here is great. Some of some of the audio here is as you would expect, you know, people just talking into their phones. There's some homes and some buzzing, that we were not able to take out and that's okay. I was just hoping for some real voices and some real feedback. back. So I do hope you'll listen. None of these clips are especially long, but I think they give really good insight into what we're all going through at the moment. So we are starting with Molly Johannes she was diagnosed 22 years ago. She lives in Massachusetts. I'm smiling because I have met Molly. I've been fortunate enough to be at events with her. She has a blog called hugging the cactus. And I mentioned I had put out some prompts and some questions. One of which was, what is it like knowing that so many people with diabetes are stuck at home right now? Here is Molly answering that question and more.   Molly  5:37 And I have to say that I'm finding it a lot more unifying than isolating. What I mean by that is, it's really nice to go on to all of my social media channels. And for the most part, I'm seeing a lot more positivity than negativity. A lot of people are coming up with different ways to stay entertained at home, whether that's going outdoors and enjoying nice weather when it's around. Or if it's staying inside and pursuing hobbies or spending more time as families, it makes a big difference. I think in my mindset just to see something other than the news, you know, certain social media sites, you kind of log on to them. And it's nothing but a barrage of like what's going on in the world right now. And while it is super important to stay informed, it's also important to focus on mental health. And I think that distractions are one way to kind of make sure that mental health is not ignored. It's really nice to just be able to talk to others and know that we're all feeling the same way right now. So with that said, I'd like to share some of the things that I'm doing to stay busy. So when I'm not working, I am lucky enough to work a job remotely. So that's something I'm very grateful for. So when I'm not working, I am watching TV, watching movies, you know, typical things like that, but then I'm also pursuing hobbies that I don't normally have enough time for, whether that's knitting or reading some new books or you know, just spending some more time I'm working on my blog, which is important to me. And I find that a lot of the times Monday through Friday, it's really hard for me to focus on certain aspects of managing my blog. But now that I'm, you know, spending a lot more time at home, I don't have a commute, things like that, it is nice to be able to work on it a little bit more. But besides that, I am just spending time with my dog making sure that I'm connecting with my friends, you know, all of my group chats, we're just kind of checking in with each other on a daily basis. And I'm thinking of doing a couple of other things to really just promote the feeling of togetherness. So with some of my friend groups, that's probably going to be a couple of virtual sleep overs that we've talked about. We're discussing certain movies that like we can watch together as a group. So that would be really fun. But I'm also thinking for the diabetes community. Like it might be really cool to do a virtual meetup slash Hangout, and I don't know I think I'm gonna look into that and hopefully come up with some dates that might work for people get a whole bunch of people on camera and maybe we can just get to know one another and play games you know, just things that will keep us going. That will Keep conversations going and reassure people that they're not alone right now. That's the big message that I think it's important to bear in mind. So yeah, with that said, Everyone, just stay healthy be well and don't forget to take care of yourselves and keep mental health a priority.   Stacey Simms  8:16 Thank you so much, Molly. It is great to hear from you. I really appreciate it. Okay, next is Doug. He is from Florida. He was diagnosed when he was 15 years old. He says he's 27 years into it. Now. He is currently finishing his dissertation he sent in his audio and this you'll understand why I'm saying this one. You hear him on March 17, which was the day of the Florida primary. So he talked a little bit about that. I did not include it all because it was very important to that date, but that's what he's talking about voting by mail. So thank you, Doug. And here's what he had to say.   Doug  8:52 I am doing fine. It just so happens that I am a bit of a socially awkward introvert Bert, and the kind of self isolation and social distancing policies that have been recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. These are things that come quite naturally to me. I don't spend a lot of time in crowded environments and I'm not a touchy feely person. I hope you all will continue to stay safe, wash your hands, don't touch your face or other people in the future. And consider using some social distancing practices in your ordinary life outside of this type of pandemic situation. For example, mail your vote, mail your ballots, and I hope everyone out there is taking care of themselves. Stacey Simms  9:53 The next bit of audio came from Saudi Arabia. I was so surprised and really Just pleased to get this. So Sarah, who lives in Riyadh city, thank you so much for sending it in. She was diagnosed in 2004. And she makes a really good point about how everything around us seems to have changed except for diabetes,   Sarah  10:15 to all type one D nation. I'm so happy today that everyone can hear me through this podcast. I'm sada. I have been living with Type One Diabetes since 2004. And from Saudi Arabia, I live in Riyadh city. And currently we're living in a very, extremely and exceptional situation. The whole world literally is facing the same problem of a smooth, tiny virus that changes all our meanings of life. I've been questioning myself the last two days. What are the essential things in our life? What do I really want to do? If I don't have any plan today to go to, to study, or to go to visit, what's add stress to me is living with type one D has no No, no break. So I kept saying to myself, everything has stopped. We stopped education. And we have been learning now not really stopped education. I mean, we have stopped going to schools or universities, but we're learning now through virtually and everything we're doing now is virtual, except diabetes. Nothing has changed about it. Every day. I check my BG every day I monitor my CGM every day or every three days I changed my pump site. So everything has changed except my type one D So I looked at myself and I questioned myself, the way we deal with type one D really shapes big Big, big part of our lives and really need to make sure that the way we approach and you will type windy, really healthy, and guide us toward better control. And I'm so happy to share my thoughts with you guys. I was trying to be as much as continious. Thank you Stacy for this amazing opportunity. And I want to say thank you, everyone, and hope you stay safe and healthy. And thank you very much. Thank you, Sarah.   Stacey Simms  12:37 All right. This is Michael and a lot of you regular listeners who are also on Twitter probably know Michael without really knowing him because he's very active on Twitter. He's MTL 613 and when I heard him say that I was really excited because I we've been following each other for a long time now, but of course I've never heard him. He was diagnosed with type one at the age of 420 years. ago, he starts out by answering that question about knowing that the diabetes community is out there right now, even as we feel very much alone.   Michael  13:12 And I think that's a very important thing. Generally, for me even without, you know, this whole situation, to know that there are people out there who are going through the same or similar things that you're going through is very important to that you don't feel alone. And it's even more important now with this whole virus situation and, and a lot of people, myself included, are trying to stay home and avoid direct contact with other people. So being able to connect over social media and in different ways and to see that other people are doing the same things you're doing even now is even more important than usual.   Maddie  13:54 Hi, my name is Maddy. I'm from Arizona, and I'm 14 years old.   Mandy  13:59 Hi I'm Mandy from also Arizona. My daughter was diagnosed about a year and a half ago. So Maddie, what is one good thing about being home right now? I think   Maddie: 14:11 one good thing about being home right now is that it's easier to control my height a little bit better, and catch my lows. Because when you're at school, you're mainly focused on your work. And then you always hear though, beeps and alarms and then it freaks everyone out and embarrasses you while me. And so it's sort of nice to have it at home and we can control it and yeah, okay. What is one thing your parents do that actually helps you with diabetes? Well, um, they do of course, everything and I love them so much, but my main thing I guess is that my mom especially makes food that is easier on my blood sugar and dinners that coordinate with like, how Having good blood sugars, and it also helps our family in general because she has celiac. And that's hard to have, as you know, eating too and just keeping family healthy.   Mandy  15:13 Yeah, we are watching our carbs a little, a little bit. It helps both of us. Yeah, for sure, was a diabetes or community event canceled that you plan to attend. Tell us about it and what you were looking forward to.   Unknown Speaker  15:27 So one event that was cancelled was the jdrf walk. And I was diagnosed a year and a half ago. And one of the first things we did was go to the JRF talk. And it was just really nice to see that there are so many other people that you know, we're going through the same things as you and that I always love to see and I made a lot of friends and camp diabetes camp has really helped that and so I would be really missing out on seeing more of that, I guess.   Unknown Speaker  15:56 Yeah, but it hasn't been canceled, right? It's just it's a Virtual walk now.   Unknown Speaker  16:01 Yeah. So it was still having virtual walk and of course will still   Unknown Speaker  16:05 attend,   Unknown Speaker  16:06 but it's just different than, you know   Unknown Speaker  16:08 in person and we're waiting to hear about camp or keeping our fingers crossed cross cross capsule on. We'll see that was one of my favorite ever things and   Unknown Speaker  16:20 of course when you're newly diagnosed it's you get a first step in but it was just one of my amazing most amazing things that have ever experienced. So Absolutely.   Stacey Simms  16:32 Okay, thank you. Big thanks to Maddie and Mandy, I appreciate you sending that in. I am thrilled to hear that you are still cooking healthy and doing what you need to do. I'll be honest with you. We have a talk in my house the other day about eating and it was basically about how well we don't have a house full of junk food. But how we're not going to police each other because there's enough stress right now and if somebody wants to eat a big cheese knows, you can go ahead and eat a bag of Cheetos. I will say that Benny is probably eating the best out of all of us right now. He has some wrestling goals that he is still keeping an eye on and he's doing great. But the rest of us might be a little bit on the track to game the unknown about the freshman 15. But the quarantine with what goes with that. quarantine? 15? I don't know. I'll keep you posted on that. Big thanks to everybody who sent in their audio. I know that's not easy to do. You know, even if you're bored, and you think, Oh, this is gonna be a way to pass the time. It's still hard to open up your phone and press record and then just talk and share your thoughts and then hit send. You know, I get butterflies every time I do a podcast episode. So I can't imagine what it's like for everybody just kind of talking and sending their audio in big, big, big thank you. If you'd like to do this again, let me know I'll put out some different prompts. Because I'm so thrilled to always hear more stories in the diabetes community. Everybody's story deserves to be told. Everybody has something to say we can all learn from your experiences. So stuck at home, share your story. We'll keep doing this if you'd like. I really enjoy hearing from you. You can refer back to the original blog post for how to do this. It really is as easy as opening the voice memo app on your phone. Every phone has something like this, recording something quick and sending it in. As you listen. I know you've heard some different backgrounds there it is better to go to a quiet background if you possibly can. some suggestions, a closet is great. Your car is a great little studio, a bathroom, you know any place in your house that is kind of small and quiet. But we will take as you here, we will take what we get because to me the message is so much more important. And yeah, I cleaned all those up. I can edit those out and things like that. And john Buchanan, of course, my editor really does the magic there. So we want to hear from you. Maybe it's even just an activity With the kids for a few minutes, thank you so much for joining me for listening regular episodes different episodes more Facebook Lives Who the heck knows what we're going to do is we're all stuck here at home. But thanks for sharing your story. I'm Stacey Simms, and I'll see you back here for our next episode.   Benny  19:20 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All rights reserved. All rounds avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Anything goes with James English Ep/92.    Sarah Jane Baker, Britain’s longest serving transgender tells her story.   Sarah has just recently been released after serving 30 years in prison. Sarah was imprisoned for kidnapping and torturing her stepmother's brother and then given a life sentence for the attempted murder of another prisoner.   Sarah grew up on the tough streets of London and when she was a child, her father lost a business, and after that, the abuse started. He tortured everyone around him, including my mum, and later on, my step-mums. In my family, there’s a lot of abuse, and that abuse also happened when I was in care.   Sara’s abusive upbringing made her angry and full of hate and got her into a lot of trouble from a very young age.   Sarah spent all her adult life locked up as a male prisoner and that's a dangerous place to be as a trans woman. Sarah lost count of the things that happened to her inside. She has scars all over her body Where she has been cut with razorblades and stabbed and also she was stripped, pinned down and had boiling hot water and sugar poured all over her.   Sarah was also raped on Numerous occasions And gang raped. The group would also stick a pool cue in her Every time they raped her.Sarahs struggles with her gender really came to a head when She was inside. Although She was allowed access to make-up and hair products, She wasn't allowed oestrogen. In order to access it under the terms of the Gender Recognition Act, She needed to prove She had lived two years as a woman. But for me, serving a life sentence, that was impossible. So Sarah decided enough was enough and resorted to drastic measures in December 2017 She cut off her testicles in her own prison cell and nearly died doing so.   Follow me on my social media platforms ⬇️⬇️http://instagram.com/jamesenglish2http://twitter.com/jamesenglish0http://Facebook.com/Jamesenglish11       You can check out all video episodes on my YouTube page, James English - Anything Goes Podcast Showhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkdiBNdMSiQeT8aD7gXWgvA/videos?view_as=subscriber

Genesis 18 1 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him.“There, in the tent,” he said.10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.”But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”Abraham Pleads for Sodom16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Episode 387: Starting AIP on a Budget   Welcome back to The Paleo View! (0:40) Stacy is so excited; life is great. Matt and Stacy went through some hard times in life for a while, and she is in awe to be going through a really great season in life right now. Sarah's family made two resolutions together as a family. The first is to do an outdoor activity together as a family every weekend. The second is that they would do meditations together as a family, and they are using the app Headspace for this. They are doing them before bed, and for five minutes. Stacy is excited to help Barbara this week. A reader question came in that inspired this week's episode and is a unique challenge for both Stacy and Sarah to answer. Sarah loves the idea of getting back to basics and talking about what it is like to start AIP for someone who is new.   Listener Question Barabara is 75 years old and is on social security. She wants to do the autoimmune protocol, and her question is: How can I do the AIP diet? Where do I begin? Sarah thinks it is awesome to take a step back and to talk about where it is best to put that initial effort at first. One of the things that most resonated with Stacy when starting her AIP journey, was to think about what she is adding in versus what she is taking out. The thought process is that we're adding in nutrient density. As a reminder, nutrient density is that for every calorie you are eating you are maximizing the amount of nutrients you can get for that food. That the food is high in fiber, or other minerals and vitamins, different kinds of things that are adding value to your health. We are adding in nutrient density to nourish and heal our bodies so that we can feel our best.   The Starting Point As someone who is just starting and where to begin, we are just trying to nourish the body to feel it's best and taking away the things that cause the inflammation and the auto-immune systems. A diet is not healthy or unhealthy based on what you avoid. So Sarah likes to talk about any diet from the standpoint of what we eat, versus what we avoid. Sarah thinks that as we go through the steps on where to start with AIP, it is very helpful to adopt a positive focus on what we do get to eat. It is a subtle shift in mindset, but it can make all the difference. We need to not just think about the autoimmune protocol, but the mindset around food in general. This sets us up for a journey, as opposed to a dietary intervention that is going to be on for a while and then off. Working to find a maintenance diet that is going to work for you as an individual is key. AIP is designed as a thorough template to get to that point.   Lists & Labels Sarah feels that the next step is food lists. (12:12) It is necessary information to know what to eat and what to avoid. There are free lists on Sarah's site, and in this eBook there are very thorough lists as well. Sarah created that eBook to be very comprehensive to expedite the application of AIP. From there, Sarah thinks developing the skillset of reading food labels is important. Using the food lists to inform you, and then reading labels to build awareness. Go through the pantry, and put anything to the side that is Paleo but not AIP. Even those who aren't necessarily new to AIP will find it very helpful to revisit ingredient lists and check the prep details with restaurants. Stacy likes to think of AIP as an elimination diet to see what works and what doesn't work for your body. The goal is for it be for a set amount of time to help your body to heal. It doesn't have to be a forever thing.   Meal Planning & Prep Sarah likes to put her AIP lecture series students through an exercise to help with this process. The students look at the meals they already eat that are very close to AIP, and look for the little swaps they can make to adapt the recipe to be fully AIP. Look at what you are already cooking and love and look at where you can make a small change. You can build from there once you have those favorites. Sarah also noted that now there are so many amazing AIP resources available on the internet. There are AIP cookbooks you can buy, but there are also so many AIP recipe bloggers that have content available for free. When selecting your go-to recipes, think of what will realistically work for your lifestyle and schedule. Shop from your pantry and freezer to check what you already have when building out your meal plan. When you shop, adjust bit by bit as opposed to stocking up on all the things at once. Find a blogger who likes the kind of things that you like and they will offer recipes that follow suit. Stacy noted that it is an easy step to double a recipe so that you can freeze and save for later. These back up meals will go a long way to add convenience into your elimination diet process.   The Learning Curve If you are someone who usually eats out, you will need to get use to eating from home for a bit where you can maintain control of your ingredients. This will help you avoid the risk of cross-contamination. Eating from home is also simply cheaper. As you get further into your modifications and your journey, you will be able to decide if you want to reinvest your dining out budget into higher quality foods. Getting use to shopping, cooking and planning ahead is part of the learning curve of AIP. Stacy noted that we also need to be able to ask for help when we need it. There are going to be a lot of dietary adjustments to simply be aware of and patient through.   Lifestyle Elements While there are a lot of dietary changes to be made, people sometimes get 100% focused on the diet aspects alone. However, lifestyle is super important for immune regulation as well. The two most important things from a lifestyle perspective to commit to in the early phase is setting a grownup bedtime and sticking to it. The ideal bedtime is eight to eight and a half hours before you need to get up in the morning. This needs to account for the time it takes you to fall asleep and any restless periods during the night as well. If this is a big change from where you are currently at with your sleep, you are going to want to add on twenty minutes every few days until you hit that goal. Starting that commitment to getting enough sleep in the early phase is very important. Getting enough sleep will also help with hunger and hormone regulation. The second piece that Sarah recommends is committing to a twenty to thirty-minute walk outside every day. If you are a really active person, Sarah reminds anyone who is looking at AIP that avoiding strenuous activity is part of the protocol. Strenuous or prolonged activity is inflammatory. If you are someone who is sedentary and works at a desk for long periods throughout the day, make sure you are getting a movement break every 20 minutes. Stacy shared why she recommends water aerobics as a great movement option for someone following AIP. This idea is about starting to increase movement, not necessarily about hitting a cardio goal. Ease into the diet without ignoring lifestyle. Sarah thinks that one of the best things people can do in order to set themselves up for success with AIP and beyond is to educate yourself on the protocol why's. Doing so will allow you to understand where the gives and takes are. Knowing the details will help you troubleshoot when you need to, stay motivated to keep going, when and where to refine, etc. A common misstep that Sarah sees is when people combine protocols. Don't make it harder on yourself than it needs to be. If you are doing AIP, stick with that and see how it goes. This is why Sarah developed such thorough resources for AIP, specifically The Paleo Approach and the Autoimmune Lecture series are great tools. Sarah is only teaching once lecture series in the year ahead, which will start March 9. The code 'PaleoView' is still active and will get you $100 off your tuition.   Budget Limitations There are places where it is harder to get fresh produce. You will need to be proactive in these areas and look for produce delivery or CSAs. If it is a budget component that is impacting your access to produce, Sarah recommends not worrying about organic. It is still important to focus on nutrient-dense foods even if they aren't in the ideal form. Sarah has what she calls stretch vegetables that are foods that help to stretch a meal. These items are cabbage, winter squash, and sweet potatoes. You get a lot for the price per pound on these items. The most expensive AIP ingredients are the purchases used for AIP treats. These are nice for feeling like you are not giving something up, but these treats aren't necessary for healing. It will not take long for your palette to adjust to fruit being a treat. Eating AIP on a budget is absolutely possible. Most CSAs and farmer's markets now take food stamps, so explore this option as well. Other than that you are doing the best you can. Frozen fruits and vegetables tend to be better than fresh because they are picked ripe and frozen right away. If you are going to do canned, just make sure you read the labels. Sarah suggested other ways to cut grocery costs. Stacy suggested bananas, plantains, and carrots as other stretch foods that they always have around. Onions are another food that Matt and Stacy try to add to everything.   Reintroduction  AIP is a collection of tools that are about expediting healing because you are flooding the body with nutrients and eliminating the most likely dietary triggers of your autoimmune symptoms. This toolbox also gives you the tools to understand your own body. Reintroduction will teach you what foods you can eat for your body, and which foods you can't. When approaching reintroduction, focus on the foods that are going to add the most nutritional value to your diet. However, there is a case to be made in this situation to introduce budget-friendly foods.  Reintroduction is a phase of AIP. First, you work on nutrient density and you eliminate possibly problematic foods and work on lifestyle.  Then you try reintroductions and learn about your body. You then find something in between that works for you, your body, and your budget.  Sarah thinks of this stage as the maintenance phase.  Think of your AIP as a journey, don't hit your head against the wall before troubleshooting or refining.  If you are getting to three or four months and not seeing any improvements, that's when finding a great doctor to work with or an AIP certified coach will help you troubleshoot.   Closing Thoughts The AIP is a lifestyle that is centered around understanding your own body.  There is a huge piece of this about developing lifelong habits.  Understand that there is no cure to autoimmune disease.  Following the AIP can put some conditions into remission. However, there are a lot of variables that contribute to reaching this step.  Autoimmune disease is a moving target. We have to be vigilant and aware; ready to dive in when needed. It is a wonderful collection of tools that allow you to navigate health challenges in the future more successfully.  Stacy recommends finding a community.  Sarah even has an The Paleo Mom Community Facebook group where you can connect with others for support and encouragement.  Having a support system will go a long way to help make this sustainable long-term.  Stacy and Sarah wish Barbara well and thank her for the great question she submitted! The hosts will be back next week! Please be sure to share with others who you think would be interested in this week's episode, and leave a review in whatever platform you are using to tune in. Thanks for listening! 

GENESIS 17-18: In chapter 15 we heard of God's covenant with Abram and Abram's _fully believing_ God's promises. Then in chapter 16 we read of Abram and Sarai trying to help God fulfill his promises. Chapter 15 verse 6 is a famous verse that is quoted three times in the NT: 6 Abram put his trust in the Lord, and because of this the Lord was pleased with him and accepted him. (GNT) [The NT translates this verse a bit differently because it is quoted from the Septuagint (the LXX, the ancient translation of the Old Testament into Koine Greek, made in the third and second centuries BC). ] JOB 9: In chapter 8, Bildad defended God as always acting with justice and insisted that this meant that there had to be some sin on Job's part or his children's. MARK 6a: In the second half of Mark5, Jesus did two amazing miracles— the second one causing a dead girl to live again. —————— Missionary Bible translators will tell you that when a Bible book is recorded, the readers often make good suggestions to improve the naturalness of the text. Similarly, the changes I have suggested for the NLT are often simply because I they sounded more natural to me without changing the meaning. In other places, I have made more important suggestions based on my Bible translation experience, and have written notes explaining my reasoning. Many of you will just want to skip reading the translation notes. I have included them in the reading plan in the hope that some who are reading the GNT and NLT will enjoy them. GNT Translation notes: Gen. 18:12 So Sarah laughed to herself and said, “Now that I am old and worn out, can I still enjoy [having a child//sex]? And besides, my husband is old too.” 25 Surely you won't kill the innocent with the guilty. [That wouldn’t be right!//That's impossible!] You can't do that. If you did [that], the innocent would be punished along with the guilty. That [wouldn’t be right//is impossible]. The judge of all the earth has to act justly.” ==== Job 9:27-28 If I smile and try to forget my pain, all my suffering comes back to haunt me; I know that God [holds//does hold] me guilty. ==== Mrk. 6:6 He was greatly surprised, because the people did not [believe in him//have faith]. 14 Now King Herod heard about all this, because Jesus' reputation had spread everywhere. Some people were saying, “John the Baptist has come back to life! That is why [Jesus//he] has this power to perform miracles.” 15 Others, however, said, “He is Elijah[ (come back from heaven)].” Others said, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of long ago.” 16 When Herod heard it, he said, “[He’s gotta be//He is] John the Baptist! I had his head cut off, but he has come back to life!” 17 Herod himself had ordered John's arrest, and he had him tied up and put in prison. Herod did this because of [Herodiana//Herodias], whom he had married, even though she was the wife of his brother Philip. 19 So [Herodiana//Herodias] held a grudge against John and wanted to kill him, but she could not because of Herod. [In our translations in Indonesia, it was found to help understanding to give Herodias a more feminine sounding name. In Indonesian Herod is Herodes, and Herodias was too close in sound and the two names became  confused. Even though English does not have that problem, I think it will helps a little to give her a name that people will recognize as a girl-name.]   NlT Translation notes: 17 For Herod had sent soldiers to arrest and imprison John as a favor to [Herodiana/Herodias]. She had been his brother Philip’s wife, but Herod had married her. 18 John had been telling Herod, “It is against God’s law for you to marry your brother’s wife.” 19 So [Herodiana/Herodias] bore a grudge against John and wanted to kill him. But without Herod’s approval she was powerless, [In our translations in Indonesia, it was found to help understanding to give Herodias a more feminine sounding name. In Indonesian Herod is Herodes, and Herodias was too close in sound and becomes  confusing. Even though English does not have that problem, I think it will help some to give her name that people will recognize as a girl-name.] 21 [Herodianas’s] chance finally came on Herod’s birthday. He gave a party for his high government officials, army officers, and the leading citizens of Galilee. 22 Then [Herodiana's/his] daughter, also named Herodia came in and performed a dance that greatly pleased Herod and his guests. “Ask me for anything you like,” the king said to the girl, “and I will give it to you.” [As NLT's footnote shows, there is a textual problem in this verse. I have changed this to be like NIV, CEV, ESV and many others.]

This episode, Kat and Liz talk about leadership development, theater training, and neurodiversity with Sarah Noll Wilson. Sarah is a leadership consultant and also a proponent for working with neurodiverse people. Sarah started her career in leadership and teaching as a camp counselor and ropes course instructor. After a degree in theater performance and education, she took a day job in the insurance industry, and began to connect the dots in how to use creative drama in learning and development in a corporate context. Why do good people become crappy managers? Because we don’t give resources and time to focus on leadership, says Sarah. Sarah makes leadership training fun. She her story about finding her space and uses playful language to help people define themselves and to engage in leadership learning. Sarah found leadership from managing ropes courses as a high schooler. She realized that technical training took a long time at her insurance company, and was able to shorten the training time and run team-building activities. Sarah learned about mentorship and was lucky to find someone who taught her that SHE is in charge of her career. Other takeaways from our conversation with Sarah: Having a title doesn’t make you a leader, it just gives you authority. You need to understand who you are supporting is human. Great leaders admit they don’t know things, and work hard to make themselves irrelevant by empowering their team. If you don’t care about the people who work for you, you shouldn’t be in leadership. Great leaders are always asking themselves how they can get better. And then the conversation turned to neurodiversity and ADHD. Sarah shares her story with neurodiversity. She was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. She discovered it when she branched out on her own. Away from her corporate job and the context and structure of work and school, the coping mechanisms she had developed became less effective, and her ADHD became more apparent. So Sarah has developed new coping techniques as she learned what she needs to be successful and do her work. For instance, she listens to music and uses her Forest app (https://www.forestapp.cc/) to keep her on task. Are we missing as a society by not actively trying to support people who have executive functioning issues? Sarah's answer: a lot! For ADHD, it’s about finding where you get your hyperfocus and leaning into it. Liz and Kat asked what questions to ask in interviews, and Sarah’s advice is to ask people you know at the company and to wait until you’re hired to ask for accomodations to avoid misperceptions. Also, understand that people are often misinformed about the challenges of neurodiverse brains; try to be ready to have informative conversations to educate people who have misperceptions. If you can, find a leader who you can talk with about what you need. Sarah surrounds herself with people who compliment her skills and help her. On any team, but especially on a team with neurodiverse people with qualities like ADHD, Sarah likes to use the concept of the lead goose: Other team members can take the lead role when the regular leader is overwhelmed with other priorities, and the lead goose technique can also be used by any team member to help out a colleague when they're swamped or having a tough day. Sarah also talks about being authentically herself: if you hire her, you get all of her. Kat talks about hiring consultants, and the need for a two-way fit. This episode was great fun to do, and Sarah is great in an interview. It's worth a listen if you're interested in leadership development, and even if you don't have ADHD, you very likely work with colleagues who have ADHD or are otherwise neurodiverse, so that part's worth a listen, too! More about Sarah on her site: https://sarahnollwilson.com/me/ Twitter: @sarahnollwilson (https://twitter.com/sarahnollwilson)

Have you ever made one too many mistakes. You know, you get to a point where you think, That's it! God must be done with me? Well, Abraham was a man of faith who made plenty of mistakes along the way. Yet God seemed to overlook, even to compensate for them. Why was that?   Life Changing Moments As we travel through life we all kind of experience these moments and often they are seemingly insignificant events that in fact, turn out to change the whole course of our lives. It's amazing when you think about it! We all have a plan for our lives but there are things just around the next corner or just over the next rise that can change everything – good things and bad things, happy things and sad things. Some people think, “Well, it's all a matter of chance." Well, I don't believe in chance. I remember a brochure that changed my life. I was attending a little church – I had not long become a Christian and it was a Sunday service like every other Sunday. At the end of the service I walked to the back of the little church and I saw a brochure for a particular Bible College, Tabor College in Sydney. It wasn't a particularly attractive brochure or a well designed brochure – I picked it up and that was a defining moment – I took it home, I read about this ministry degree, I prayed and I felt this incredibly strong tug in my heart. Now in my mind I am thinking, "There's no way. You know Berni, you have been a Christian for five minutes" but in my heart I knew. So I rang them, I applied, I went to see the Principal, I felt like such a fraud. "They are never going to accept me." They did! And there I learned so much but also, by chance again, I came into contact with my predecessor in this ministry; the former CEO of Christianityworks and one thing led to another. And today I'm doing what I am doing because I picked up that little brochure at the back of the church. Now I had no idea that morning that something would happen that would change the course of my life. This week we are starting a new series on Christianityworks, it's called “Defining Moments”. It's really exciting! I want to look at this from a different perspective; from God's perspective. See when we look back on our lives most of us can pick three or four, maybe half a dozen defining moments – those little things that seemed to change the whole course of our lives. Now, sure we can see them from our natural human perspective – after all, we are people; we're human, but if we do that I think we miss the point. I want to look at some defining moments in the lives of four people in the Bible – Abraham, Joseph, David and Josiah over the next four weeks and we are starting today with Abraham. I want to see if we can discover how God reaches into our lives with miracles - great and small to define the very course of our lives because God does have a plan. Psalm 139, verse 16, says: Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In Your book were written all the days that were formed for me when none of them as yet existed. And when we at least expect it, and even despite what you and I do or fail to do, His plan is worked out through His grace for His glory. God brings those defining moments. Let's start with Abraham - the man with whom God's engagement of His chosen people began. He was living comfortably in a place called Ur, east of Israel – of course Israel didn't exist back then. Ur was the land of the Chaldeans, later it was called Babylon – it's just south of modern day Baghdad. And he travelled with his father up to Haran and then God called him to leave his comfort and follow this really crazy, absolutely incredulous promise. Let's pick it up – if you have got a Bible, grab it; open it up at Genesis chapter 12. We are going to look at the story of Abraham – it's too much to look at it all in one programme but we are going to have a look at part of his story. Genesis chapter 12, beginning at verse 1: Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation. I will bless you and make your name great so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. So Abram when as the Lord had told him and Lot when with him. Abram was seventy five years old when he departed form Haran.” Seventy five years old! “He and Sarai his wife and they were childless." You see, you have to remember, in the Old Testament, blessing; God's blessing, you knew you had it when you had lots of land and lots of children. They had neither, so they didn't have God's blessing on their lives. Now the word "Abram" means "exalted father". So even his name was a joke, but still he went, off into the never never, based on what – some intangible, crazy call from God? Remember Abram had no Bible; he had no Scriptures to reveal who God was. He had no church tradition, or Jewish tradition – nothing like that. All the other nations had their gods; idols – they worshipped them, they believed all sorts of weird and wonderful things but Abram put his faith; he put his whole life and all his possessions in this God who came up with this incredulous promise. How did God say this to Abram - through an audible voice, a dream, a vision, a whisper of the Spirit in his heart? We don't know but he just heard the call and he trusted in the promises of God and off he went, into the blue yonder. Now God's plan A, remember, is to bless Abram with land and children – impossible of course! Oozes fantasy, not faith – could never happen. And then begins Abram's comedy of errors – pretty tragic actually. We don't have time to look at them all today but we are going to look at some of them. It's a journey where Abram and Sarai his wife, made plenty of mistakes along the way. Take Lot for instance, his nephew – if you look at Genesis chapter 12 again, did God tell Abram to take Lot with him? Not at all – it was Abram's idea. No doubt, this was plan B for Abram. "Well, if God doesn't come through on this promise of a son, at least I'll have a relative to be my heir" and Lot…..Lot causes him all sorts of grief. Let's have a look – Genesis chapter 13, verse 5: Now Lot who went with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents so that the land couldn't support both of them living together, for their possessions were so great that they could not live together. And there was strife between the herders of Abram's stock and the herders of Lot's stock. At that time the Canaanites and the Perizzites lived in the land. Then Abram said to Lot, “Let there be no strife between you and me – between your herders and my herders for we are kindred. Is not the whole land before you? Separate yourself from me. If you take the left hand, then I'll go to the right; of you take the right hand, then I will go to the left.” Lot looked about him and saw the plain of the Jordan that was well watered everywhere like this garden of the Lord; like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zoar - this was before the Lord had destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. So Lot chose for himself all the plain of Jordan and Lot eastward thus he separated from Abram. Gee, plan B worked really well for Abram didn't it? Obviously God didn't know what He was promising Abram and needed a back up! And look how it turned out! Strife, separation and then Abram gave away the best half of the Promised Land. And if you read on in chapter 14, Abram risks his life and God's plan because he has to fight a battle to save Lot's life. Lot was not part of plan A and in chapter 19 of Genesis (we won't go there for now for time reasons) but he ends up sleeping with his own daughters and fathers the Moabites and the Ammonites; both nations that became enemies of Israel. Huh – well done Abram! God obviously needed your help!!   Who Can Blame Him? Well, who can blame Abram? He is in his late seventies now on a journey to nowhere and Sarai is no spring chicken either, I have to tell you. And God gives him this utterly incongruous, impossible promise and Abram is aching inside. "God, what are You doing?"  Can you relate to that? I can! Let's have a look at the defining moment in Abram's journey. It begins in Genesis chapter 15, verse 1: After these things the Word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Don't be afraid, Abram, I am your shield. Your reward shall be very great.” But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me for I continue childless and the heir of my house is Eliezer, son of Damascus?” And Abram said, “You have given me no offspring and so a slave born in my house is to be my heir.” But the Word of the Lord came to him, “This man shall not be your heir. No one but a son coming from your very own body shall be your heir.” God brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” Then the Lord said to him, “So shall your descendants be!” And Abram believed the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness. I reckon this is one of the most beautiful passages in the Bible. Is Abram a man of faith? Absolutely! But he is struggling – he has tried everything he can do in his own strength and he can't make this promise from God happen and time is marching on. So through his doubt, he ends up with plan C or D or whatever he is up to. How does God respond – with rebuke, with punishment, with discipline? God brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heaven and count the start, if you are able to count them.” Then God said “So will your descendants be! Isn't it beautiful? You know, the Milky Way when you get away from the smog and the lights of the city is just the most awesome thing – there are so many stars out there – it almost looks like clouds. Trillions of stars – this is the love of God! And he believed the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness. Abram's faith meant that God's righteousness became part of who he was. It's a theme the Apostle Paul picks up in Romans chapter 4 and in Galatians chapter 3 in the New Testament, much later. See I struggle with the rose coloured glasses that Paul and others in the New Testament use to look back on Abraham. They paint him as this paragon of virtue; this great man of faith. Hebrews chapter 11, beginning at verse 8: By faith Abraham, when he was called to go to a place he would later receive as an inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he didn't know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the Promised Land like a stranger in a foreign country, for he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By faith Abraham, even though he was past age and Sarah herself was barren, was enabled to become a father. That's great but what about all of Abraham blunders? What about his lack of faith? He goes to God and says to God, "What will You give me? What will You show me? I can't see it – I'm losing hope." See, Abraham was human – Abraham had human failures and he made mistakes just like you and me - but the answer is in what we just read in Genesis. How is it that despite all of Abraham's blunders and doubts, God's plan still came to fruition? Because Abraham: “believed the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness.” Abraham believed – he didn't do it perfectly – but he believed and this was counted by God as righteousness. The righteousness of God when we believe, He forgives our sins – He forgets them. “As far as the east is from the west, so far does He remove our transgressions from us.” You see, that's why in the New Testament it doesn't talk about Abraham's mistakes because God has forgiven them and they are not relevant. That's how God deals with Abraham's human failings. This is the defining moment in Abraham's journey: he believed the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness. This night that was like any other; he was in his tent; he was struggling; he was praying; he was saying, ‘God, what are you doing?' And God just touches him and brings him outside and says, “Look up at the stars; as many as are there so numerous will be your descendants.” It's not about what Abraham did or didn't do. The defining moment is about God's grace! And come and look with me exactly how imperfectly Abraham believed. Come and see with me how human and frail his faith actually is. He is credited with righteousness – God speaks to him and right on the back of that, just two verses later, in Genesis chapter 15, verse 8, begins this: But he said “O Lord, God, how am I to know I shall possess it?” And God said to him, “Bring Me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtle dove and a young pigeon.” He brought God all those things and cut them in two, laying each half over against the other but he did not cut the birds in two. And when the birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abraham drove them away. As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abraham and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him. Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Know this for certain that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs and they shall be slaves there and they shall be oppressed there for four hundred years but I will bring judgement on the nation that they serve and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for you yourself, you shall go with your ancestors in peace and you shall be buried in a good old age. And they shall come back here in the fourth generation for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” When the sun had gone down and it was dark, and a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. On that day (listen to this) On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, saying, “To your descendants I give this land – from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates and the land of the Kenites and the Kenizzites and the Kadmonites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Raphaim and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Girgashites and the Jebusites.” See, in the face of further doubt from Abraham, God gives him this vision and he makes an unbreakable promise; a covenant; a promise from God Himself to Abraham.   The Last Laugh Just as well, this covenant from God was an unbreakable promise because what happens next, after the stars thing and the vision and the promise, would have been the final straw for me if I had been God. Have a look at the next Now Sarai, Abram's wife, bore him no children. She had an Egyptian slave girl whose name was Hagar and Sarai said to Abram, “You see the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Go into my slave girl; it may be that I shall obtain children by her.” Abram listened to the voice of his wife Sarai, so after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar the Egyptian; her slave girl and gave her to her husband Abraham as a wife. He went into Hagar and she conceived and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress. Then Sarai said to Abram, “May the wrong done to me be on you. I gave my slave girl to you to embrace and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked on me with contempt. May the Lord judge between you and me.” Ok, men had more than one wife in those days but people haven't changed that much. Wives, how happy would you be with this outcome? Your husband sleeping with a slave girl and then all of a sudden the slave girl is pregnant. Can you see how perverted this is? And the son that Hagar bore was Ishmail and he became the father of the Arab world! Gee, that worked out brilliantly, didn't it? And so Abram, left to his own devices would have lurched from one blunder to the next but now the bit that really gets me about this story, is the ending. Both Abram and Sarai get to the point – I mean this has been going on for years now; decades where they just end up laughing at God's promises. I mean they are so ridiculous; they are so impossible – have a look – Abram first in Genesis chapter 17, verse 15: God said to Abram, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her Sarai anymore but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her and moreover I will give you a son by her. I will bless her and she will give rise to nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Can a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Can Sarah who is ninety years old bear a child?” And Abraham said to God, “O that Ishmail might live in Your sight.” And God said, “No, but your wife Sarah shall bear you a son and you shall name him Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him.” And then Sarah's turn next! God appears to Abraham in the form of three men and those men said to him, “Where is your wife Sarah?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you in due season and your wife Sarah shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent entrance, behind them. Now Abraham and Sarah, they were old and advanced in age; it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. So Sarah laughed to herself, “After I have grown old and my husband is old, shall I have the pleasure?” See, can you blame Abraham and Sarah for laughing at God? I mean if you don't laugh you will cry. It has been twenty five years – they headed away on this fool's errand into the blue yonder. Abraham is over a hundred – Sarah is over ninety – come on God, what do You think You are doing? But let's see how it ends! Genesis chapter 21: The Lord dealt with Sarah just as He had said and the Lord did for Sarah as He had promised. Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age, at the time of which God had spoken. Abraham gave the name Isaac to his son whom Sarah had borne. Do you know what the word "Isaac" means? It means "he laughs" – you see God had the last laugh! They both laughed at God's promises and God gives them a son called Isaac and God has the last laugh! It's the laughter of God's grace. And when you look back on this journey, what was the defining moment? See, what you and I want to look at is say: "What do I have to do….what do I have to do? What do I have to do to get God's favour?" Isn't that what we are always thinking? And you look at all of Abraham's blunders and you see all the mistakes he made but in his heart he believed and it was reckoned unto him by God as righteousness. His faith trumped his failures! Let me say that again ... Abraham's faith trumped his failures! People came to Jesus years later and they said, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” And Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the One whom He has sent.” Do you get it? The defining moment for Abraham was God's gracious, loving, powerful, impossible, unbreakable, ridiculous, only God could ever do it, take it forever….promise. And in his heart Abraham believed. That's the bit that God saw and took and used and blessed Abraham through. That's why the New Testament writers can completely ignore the failures of Abraham because God….God had forgotten them a long time ago. God had decided to overlook them a long time ago. Abraham was not a perfect man – Abraham was human just like you and me. You make blunders in your life; I make blunders in my life. What does God look at? He looks at whether we put our trust in Him through Jesus Christ. God not only forgave Abraham and Sarah but He cleaned up their mess along the way so that His plan would be fulfilled and realised for His glory. Look again at the defining moment in Abraham's life…Genesis chapter 15, verses 5 and 6: God brought Abraham outside and said, “Look up toward the heaven. Count the stars if you are able to count them.” Then God said to him, “So shall your descendants be. And Abraham believed the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness. What do I have to do to do the works of God? To believe in the One whom He sent; His Son, Jesus Christ!

Tips to Stop Customers Cancelling   As time goes on, different trends appear to emerge. One of the things that we've been seeing is people cancelling a lot. I've got someone here that I'm going to be talking to from Perfectly Beautiful. Her name's Sarah and I'm going to be talking about if she has any customers and if she's frustrated with them cancelling on her. So Sarah, have you ever had anyone cancel on you? Read more about Tips to stop customers cancelling: https://dorksdelivered.com.au/blog/482-tips-to-stop-customers-cancelling Sarah: Yes, I sure have. Occasionally, we get people booking in for phone calls and when I call them up they won't answer the phone call so pretty much that I suppose is cancelling on on us. Josh: It's a bit annoying and I can imagine when they do that, it means that you're left at a dead end. You've spent some time, put it aside. You've already diverted that chunk of your life and everyone knows time is money and we've only got time in our life and that's the only thing that has value, really, so when they cancel that and you're going to be on the phone to them for 10, 15, 20 minutes and then they don't, what do you normally do with your time? Sarah: Well first of all, I'll usually start off by sending them a text message to say that we have called and if we can arrange another time to chat with them because usually they are interested in booking, so we don't really want to lose them and just leave them alone. We do that and then usually I'm kind of in the office anyway, so I'll just continue working and doing whatever I'm doing. Maybe sometimes they'll call back because them themselves might've forgotten about it and be in a meeting or in the car at the time. We then just hope that in some way they respond back to us, which they usually do, which is good. Then we'll just give them a call back at another time. Josh: Do you think that the reason for people, maybe cancelling or forgetting to be there to answer the phone when you've booked that in, might be not as much because they're millennials, but just because we have been put into a position where we've got too many things that we're having to juggle. There's so many distractions. We're driving to work. Obviously, we've got Facebook here and we've got Snapchat there or what do you think the reason is that they're forgetting the appointments? Sarah: Well, I think because especially a lot of people I work with are brides, so they're at a stage where they're in the craziness of organising a wedding. They sometimes will organise so many appointments that they might just simply forget about it. I suppose they might be in their downtime where they're sending out their emails and doing all their wedding planning and then forget that they actually just booked in an appointment. Sometimes it's not always their fault. We know that people are always busy, but yeah. I think our life is just busy in general. Josh: I absolutely agree, brides are busy people. That's why people call them bridezilla, I guess. With business owners, it's about the same so you're also a busy person, so your time and their time is both valuable and lining that up ... I know that you've got a couple of pretty cool tools that you use in your business to try and create calendar appointments and things like that. What have you found works and what doesn't work? Sarah: At the moment, I'm using Calendarly and in their email, they can click on that to organise a time so that will actually show my availability. If I'm, myself, busy with something, I make sure that it's in there so they're not wanting a call at that specific time. Then it shows that kind of when we're both free to sit down and have a chat. I kind of usually will allow my days that I know I'm going to be in the office all day and my days are going to be quite freed up so then I can have a proper chat to them and take the time to actually talk to them and if they aren't available, then organise another time during that time of the day. Josh: Cool and obviously in life, shit happens. Sometimes people cancel. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes it all works out well. Sometimes they don't have reception or the kids are home sick and they don't have the chance to to talk to you obviously. What do you find the trend is once they've got a deposit put down? Do you find that they cancel as often or have you ever had issues with people changing around or moving their appointments or adjusting things after you've had some sort of financial money come into the equation? Sarah: No, so with our bookings we take a deposit from them so then we know that they're secured and they're locked in. I feel like this stops them from cancelling at the last minute because they already have money invested into it and they feel trust in us that we're definitely going to be there because they've also got money invested into it. We don't really get any cancellations when people have put a deposit down because they know that it's all locked in and secure and we actually get people adding on people, which is actually more of a benefit than a loss. Josh: At the moment, I know your business is still in its infancy, but in one way or another, you've been in business for awhile and you've really just gone gangbusters over the last 12 months, but at the moment you've had no cancellations whatsoever after they've put finance down? Sarah: No, I haven't. Been lucky enough. No one's had a wedding been cancelled just yet so I'm lucky that I've had to do every wedding. Josh: Cool. Okay. So I guess that goes to say that the way that you should structure your business to make sure people are not cancelling is to make sure they've got some hand in the game, make sure that they're in a position that they have something to lose so that they don't cancel. I know myself, I've had had speaking events, we've had 140, 180 people registered and we've had 80 rock up and I find nearly every time it's only the free events that have such a terrible ratio as opposed to the events where someone has to put down even something small like $10 and they're going to rock up because they don't want to see that money lost and they wouldn't have registered for the event anyway. I definitely think making sure that they've got some sort of finances in there that they're holding up their money makes a big difference and it all comes down to the person. I'm sure if something terrible happened to a bride or something like that, that you're doing makeup for, you'd be understanding of that and help them out. Yeah, I think that's interesting stuff. Did you have anything else to add? Sarah: No, that's all. Josh: That's wonderful. So that was Sarah from Perfectly Beautiful and hopefully you don't have any frustrated customers cancelling on you and these tips have helped a bit. Make sure that they've dropped some finances down. Use some tools such as Calendarly, and you should be pretty good. I would love to hear how you stop customers cancelling on you and make sure to leave some comments there in the iTunes and leave us some feedback. Stay good.  

Two-time Grammy nominee and the award-winning author — Holly George-Warren has written 16 books including the New York Times bestseller The Road to Woodstock and the new biography Janis: Her Life and Music about rock icon Janis Joplin. Holly is also working with Petrine Day Mitchum on a new documentary called Rhinestone Cowboy about the story of Nudie, the Rodeo Tailor. Find out more about Holly George-Warren. Read more about The Passionistas Project. FULL TRANSCRIPT: Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with two-time Grammy nominee and the award winning author Holly George-Warren. To date, Holly has written 16 books, including the New York times bestseller, “The Road to Woodstock” and the forthcoming biography, “Janice: Her Life and Music” about rock icon Janice Joplin. Holly is also working with Patrine Day Mitchell on a new documentary called “Rhinestone Cowboy” about the story of Nudie, the rodeo tailor. So please welcome to the show Holly George-Warren. Holly: Great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Holly: Wow, gosh, what time is it? Every time it changes on the hour it seems like, but of course right now I'm most passionate about, I guess both Janis Joplin and Nudie. As far as my work life goes, my head is wrapped around both of those people. And interestingly enough, Nudie actually did make some outfits for Janice in 1970 so there's a connection with everything. And of course my other passion in my personal life is my family, my husband Robert Brook Warren and my son Jack Warren, who fill my life with joy and excitement and share, uh, my love for the arts, film, music, the outdoors, etc. So I'm very blessed. Passionistas: So tell us a little bit about what first inspired you to become a writer. Holly: I think music really did first inspire me beginning at a very, very young age. I grew up in a small town in North Carolina and literally I'm old enough to have discovered music back in the days of am radio. And in my town it was so tiny. We had very, you know, little radio, just some gospel, I think country and Western. This was in the ‘60s. But I discovered at night after like say nine o'clock on my little clock radio that I could tune into w ABC in New York and WCFL in Chicago. And that just blew my mind. It opened up this whole world for me of all these different sounds and styles of music. Cause that was in the day of very eclectic radio. Playing a DJs, they, they didn't go by strict playlists or anything like that. And I literally started just kind of writing, I think inspired by the music I was hearing. I started writing a little bit about music and I of course started reading biographies also at the same time. So that was the other major I would say inspiration for me. I started reading in elementary school these biographies of all kinds, everyone, you know, from like George Washington Carver to Florence Nightingale to Abraham Lincoln biographies and became kind of obsessed with reading those books. And you know, I just love to read from a young age. So I think those interests kind of combined that. Um, by the time I got to college I was writing quite a bit and uh, always did quite well with my writing assignments in school and then found myself writing more and more about music, going out and seeing bands performing live. And then that's what I did when I moved to New York city in 1979 I started writing for all kinds of fanzines and underground magazines that existed at that time in the East village. About then, it was kind of the post punk scene I guess, but I had been inspired by the original punk rockers, you know. I got to see the Ramones and bands like that in North Carolina before I moved to New York. So I've just started writing about the scene, which was not that well covered at the time. Talk a little bit more about the scene at that point. Back in those days, in the late seventies in New York city, there were only a couple of clubs where you could go out and see bands that had, were kind of either following in the footsteps of the original punk scene in New York and London. And a few of those people were still around New York and playing. So there was this great resurgence of kind of DIY homemade magazines, sort of called fanzines that all kinds of people that were into the scene started writing articles for. And it didn't have as many gatekeepers as say the big glossy magazines of the day, you know, even Cream magazine, which was kind of an upstart as compared to say Rolling Stone was pretty restrictive as far as who could write for those magazines. And I would send out queries and tried to get assignments and never hear back anything. But in the meantime, just people out on the scene who were playing in bands, booking bands, going out to see shows every night we're putting out these music magazines that pretty much anyone through, you know, string a sentence together and had a little bit of knowledge about writing. But a lot of passion basically. Again, passion was very much the key word of I would say the music scene, the people on stage and then also people writing about the music. So that's really what got me started and I started getting published in some, again very small run underground, a little music magazines. Passionistas: Then you did eventually start to write for Rolling Stone and you became an editor of the Rolling Stone press in '93. So tell us about the road to that and your experience working there. Holly: It was quite the fun road. It was circuitous because I did get swept up in the whole band scene and actually started playing in bands very early. I played, I used to call it lead rhythm guitar. So again, playing in different bands over pretty much throughout the 1980s and while I was doing that, I didn't write quite as much, but I felt like it was a huge tool for being able to write about music to actually be in a band. You know, we went on the road, we toured around some of my different bands, I did several recordings. So I learned what it was like to work in a recording studio. And just the whole life of being a musician became a real thing for me. So I felt like I could write about musicians with much more authority. I never considered myself a real musician. I still was a fan, but I, I could play a mean bar chord. And I started out with a fender Mustang and then I moved up to a fender Jazzmaster of the vintage one from the late fifties so I was pretty hip. Let me tell you. In the meantime, I did start getting some real jobs to pay the bills, including, believe it or not, I became an editor at American Baby magazine, which funnily enough, almost everyone that worked there was childless. And that was really my first nationally published articles was for this magazine. Um, how to know when your child is old enough for a pet or, you know, I did a research article where I went out and interviewed parents of quintuplets and quadruplets and triplets, you know, um, but I, you know, really kinda cut my teeth writing for that magazine. I learned how to be a journalist, you know, a real journalist. And then gradually through meeting people and also being a total rock and roll geeky nerd who was constantly reading every rock biography that would come out. And also I was really into, it was weirdly enough through punk rock, I got totally into old timey country music, like the Carter family. And honkytonk music like Hank Williams and I loved, uh, Patsy Cline, Wanda Jackson, the queen of rockabilly. So I got into that kind of music pretty much while I was a full-fledged punk rocker. And again, I think passion is the line between those two, the thread that connects them that, you know, both of those kinds of music, that earlier country that were raw primitive kind of country music as well as punk rock had that passion was very obvious in the music and that I loved it. I was totally into all that kind of music. And in fact, I saw George Jones at the Bottom Line in 1980 which blew my mind. So anyway, so I started learning more about that kind of music by just reading books all the time and eventually heard about a job as a fact checker at Rolling Stone press in the 1980s they were doing this big rock and roll encyclopedia and needed someone to double check everything. You know, these established writers who I'd been reading for years, Rolling Stone, like people like Dave Marsh had written. And so that was my first, you know, I was getting to call up Question Mark of Question Mark and the Mysterians and asking him, you know, was it true that he came from another planet and called up, you know, all these people. In fact, funnily enough, I handsome Dick Manitoba, the singer, the Dictators, I called him up to check some facts about this notorious horrible fight on stage, basically abroad between him and Jayne County at CBGBs. And then literally when I was playing in my band, we were rehearsing and this music building famously where Madonna once lived before she got an apartment near times square I was in, had gotten a taxi to get home with my equipment and there was, who was driving me, but you know, Richard, Manitoba, handsome Dick himself, who I had just caught up and asked him about his career as a fact checker. So anyway, that kind of got my foot in the door at Rolling Stone, which led to me over the years doing freelance projects for them. And till finally in 1993, well actually ‘91, they hired me as the editor to do a couple of their Landmark books, had deals with Random House to do new additions, “The Rolling Stone Album Guide” and “The Rolling Stone Illustrated History of Rock and Roll.” And so they hired me to kind of be the editor to work with uh, Anthony DeCurtis and Jim Hinky at the magazine to guide these books, which are these massive, massive researched, you know, a lot of people involved, you know, a lot of moving parts to do these new, uh, additions. So that went really well. So in 1993 they decided to start up a new book division, which had kind of fallen by the wayside and they hired me to come on board and run that book division. And that was a great experience and that's what led me to start writing for the magazine. I started doing assignments for the magazine, record reviews and things like that while running the book division. I learned so much from working on those kinds of big reference books. You know, and again, we had amazing writers that I got to interface with and on “The Illustrated History of Rock and Roll,” too, I got to work with everyone from Peter [inaudible] to Mark Marcus to the late great Robert Palmer. Again, Dave Marsh, you know, many, many writers. And then I got to assign a lot of new chapters and in fact I wrote a chapter, Anthony DeCurtis became a real mentor to me. He was an editor at Rolling Stone that was in the trenches with me on these book projects and he assigned me as the writer to do a big piece on the changing role of women and rock, you know, beginning with Patty Smith, et cetera. Up to that current time. I think, you know, I covered, I think Sinead O'Connor at that point was maybe one of the newer artists that was, uh, the focus of my chapter. But that was a real huge, exciting thing to get to be part of. And then I got to do another very cool book with a wonderful writer editor named Barbara Odair, who came to my office. She was working at Rolling Stone and then at US magazine back in the day when it was owned by Winter media and said, “Let's do a whole book on women in music with every chapter written by women and every, as much as possible, all the photography done by women.” So we did this really cool book called “Trouble Girls: The Rolling Stone Book of Women in Rock.” And funnily enough, one of the chapters I did for that one was this big piece on Nico, who was my first ever famous person I ever interviewed when I was, you know, living in New York city. I was still waitressing at the time. And Nico, of course from the velvet underground fame was kind of down at the heels. Editorials at the time, but having to go to a methadone clinic across from where I was working and would come in every day afterwards and have an amaretto on the rocks and cheesecake. So I got up my courage and asked her if I could interview her and I didn't even have a platform for my interview, but she said yes and got to spend some time with her and interview her and use part of the interview and a little fanzine back in the day. But then I got to really expand and write this whole chapter on Nico and use this interview I'd done 10 years earlier or even earlier than me, I guess 12 years earlier for this book “Trouble Girl.” So that was really exciting. Yeah. Passionistas: So you were writing about women, you're interviewing women, but what was it like for you as a woman starting in those early days in the punk rock scene through this time where you've becoming a more established rock journalist? What were your experiences like both as a musician and a journalist, as a woman in the music industry? Holly: Well, when I met people face to face and worked with them, say for example, Anthony DeCurtis and Jim Hinky, who sadly just passed away just a few weeks ago or a month, a month or so ago. They were very, very encouraging and very supportive. They really encouraged me to write and gave me assignments, et cetera. But before that I really found, and maybe it's true whether you're male or female or whatever gender, you know, but if I just blindly sent out queries or blindly tried to get gigs writing, when I first moved to New York City, it was a disaster. I mean, people either ignored me or just blew me off or said no or you know, it was really hard to get the foot in the door without actually working with people and for them to see what my work was like. Now, I did have the good fortune early on to meet some people that had worked with punk magazine and part of, there was this whole cool kind of resurgence of comics. This really great artists. Peter Bag had joined forces with John Holmstrom who had done punk magazine. And Peter and I, a Peter's wife and I work together, you know, at this restaurant. So Peter knew that I, you know, at this time I was just going out and writing about stuff on my own and pitching it to a few people I knew actually from North Carolina had moved to New York, but then they started giving me assignments for this. These magazines they started, one was called Stop and when it was called comical funny. So they, you know, they really encouraged me. So, you know, I can't say that I experienced gender bias or anything like that. Once I knew the people, I think maybe I was just, it's hard to know. I mean I did definitely get a lot of rejection. A lot of people that I pitched didn't really take me seriously and whether it's they didn't really know my work or because I was a woman, I don't know. I mean I, I did frequently find myself being the only music geek, you know, blabbing away on all this arcane kind of Trainspotting rock and roll history trivia with, you know, I'd be the only gal in the room blabbing away about that, you know, with some guys and stuff like that. There weren't a lot of women doing it and there weren't that many women around Lee for me that I crossed paths with to kind of support my endeavors at that part of my career. However, I very fortunately met a couple of women when I was a fact checker at Rolling Stone Press who were very, very encouraging and really I would not be talking to you right now if not for them. And one was Patti Romanowski who was the editor of Rolling Stone Press at the time, who hired me as a fact checker back in the ‘80s. She went on to write many as told two books with everyone from Mary Wilson to Otis Williams at the temptations. And that book has recently been the basis for this very successful Broadway show right now. So Patty was fantastic. And then her boss, the woman who ran rolling stone press with Sarah Layson who became, you know, really made my career because after she left Rolling Stone Press, she started a book packaging company and became a literary agent and hired me continuously for her book company. And then she became my literary agent when I left Rolling Stone. No, actually before I even started at Rolling Stone, my first ever book, which I uh, got my first book deal around 1990. So it was even before I went to Rolling Stone actually, she became my literary agent and my first ever book, she connected me with my coauthor Jenny Boyd, who had been married to make Fleetwood and her sister Patty Boyd, you might know the name was married to George Harrison, Eric Clapton. And Patty was a really interesting person who had kind of dug out a new life for herself. After her marriage with Mick Fleetwood ended, went back to school, became a psychologist, got a PhD and wanted to do a book on creativity and in musicians. So she hired me to be her co-author and we did this book called, well, it's available now. It got repackaged again and republished in England called, “It's Not Only Rock and Roll,” but it was basically about the creative process of musicians based on interviews with 75 musicians. So that really started me on my path as an author. That was my first book and that came out and a ‘91 Simon Schuster, a Fireside Division. So Sarah did that and then she became my, you know, agent. I wrote a few other books, a couple while I was at Rolling Stone and then when I left there in 2001 I've been writing books ever since. And Sarah has been my agent for all of them up to this my Janice Joplin book. And she definitely is one of my, you know, if not for her, I would, you know, like I said, I would not be talking to you right now. Passionistas: You're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with award winning author Holly George-Warren. To find out more about her latest book, “Janice: Her Life and Music” visit HollyGeorgeWarren.com. Now here's more of our interview with Holly. So clearly you have an extreme in depth knowledge of the history of women in the music industry. So how do you think the music industry has evolved over the years in terms of opportunities for women? Holly: When I first moved to New York as far as women performing in bands, that was just starting to really happen thanks to the whole, you know, punk explosion with bands from England, like the Slits and the Raincoats, the Modettes, you know, I saw all those bands, that little tiny clubs and it just was a much more welcoming atmosphere for women to pick up instruments and play in pants. And like I said, I started playing guitar in bands. Then of course, you know people like Tina Weymouth and Chrissy Hynde, I mean Patty Smith of course. So as far as getting the courage to get up on stage and play and then just, um, to have other like-minded souls out there that wanted to be in bands with you was very, uh, it was a great time to be in New York and gradually there became more and more venues, places to play. I got to play at all of them from, you know, CBS to Max's Kansas city, peppermint lounge, Danceteria, you know, all these great classic clubs in New York, you know, late seventies, early eighties. And as far as the music business, I mean, you know, at that time we were like screw the music, but you know, we were punk rockers, man. We were underground. We didn't want anything to do with that. In fact, when I started even working for Rolling Stone in ‘93, I would tell people like, yeah, I'm working for Rolling Stone so I can afford now to write about the bands I really love. For it cause I was still writing for this really cool magazine called Option, which, and I'll if you remember that magazine, but very cool magazine based on the West Coast. And so I'd still write about people that would never ever get covered in Rolling Stone, but all different types of music. And again started writing about some of the early country music pioneers and rockabilly people like Wanda and people like that. So I didn't really interface that much with the mainstream music business at that time. You know, I basically had good experiences on that very low level. Again, this was the time of the Go-Go's had come around and the Bangles, my band Dos Furlines, went on a tour of Canada with a couple of other all women bands and it was, you know, it was a male promoter and everything went really great. Once I started moving up the food chain, once I was at Rolling Stone, I started working on producing some CD packages with labels. And again, everybody I worked with were male, but they were very supportive. They were really into what, you know, my ideas were. So I didn't really have any problem with that. And you know, gradually I started meeting some very cool women that a lot of women I discovered had been really behind the scenes. So I started meeting some of those women who had been working at labels for years. Some of them had left, it started their own publicity companies, some of them were in management, et cetera. So, and then I, you know, finally got to meet a few of the women who had been pioneering women, female journalists. But again, there weren't that many. It was very cool to see. And then, you know, like I said, Barbeau Dara and I did a whole book with lots of great, great women writers. The scene I think helped, um, a lot of women find their, you know, their niche a lot. You know, a lot of women were total big into music just the way I was. But you know, finally, all these channels that opened up for them to pursue it as either a writer or you know, an A& R person manager, publicist, a photographer, lots of great women photographers. And again, I was, I loved meeting women who started in the business in the ‘60s into the ‘70s. So I loved getting to meet them in the ‘90s and just, I wish I would've known them or could've somehow met them when I first started out in the ‘70s, late seventies, even early eighties to get encouragement from them. But you know, they, they were really kind of behind the scenes. They weren't that obvious. And some of them became very good friends like Jan new house ski, uh, fabulous, wonderful. A writer who was one of the early women writers for Cream magazine. And, uh, I got to know her and work with her and you know, Daisy McLean, who had written for Rolling Stone, um, back in the glory days of rock journalism where they were all these junkets and you were flown all over and wined and dined by the labels and all that kind of stuff. And she had some amazing stories to tell about being in the trenches. And Ellen sand or another wonderful writer who her great book called, I think it's called trips, was just reissued last year. And she was a very early writer. And when out on the road with, you know like LEDs up one and covered a Woodstock and a lot of Janis Joplin gigs, Forest Hills tennis stadium wrote about that. And so again, just these great writers who were hard to find when I started out. Passionistas: You have an interest in all these genres. And you've written about such a wide range of music from country to punk. What makes a topic or an artist compelling enough for you to dedicate a book to the subject? Holly: I guess if there's a complexity to the person and arguably perhaps all artists are a complex people, who knows cause I don't know about all of them, but I've been really attracted to writing about people that have had to really struggle, who've had to break down barriers to be heard, who have, you know, a lot of facets to their personality. And Janice is my third biography. My first one was Gene Autry, the singing cowboy who was a very complex man and very much a groundbreaking artist going way back to the beginning in the late 1920s broke through in the early thirties. And then Alex Chilton, who of course a lot of people know from big star, but it started out as this pop star at age 16 and the Box Tops and just had this incredible career in life. I become passionate about them, their music, their lives. I never lose that passion. I mean I still get excited if some crazy, you know, online radio station plays, you know, a Gene Autry song. Same thing without, I was so thrilled. I went to see once upon a time at time in Hollywood and to hear a very deep cut box top song on the soundtrack of a, of the new Quintin Tarantino films. So two to train. By the way, I never lose the passion for the people that I like. Literally moving in with one of my biography subjects, you know, for several years. And you never forget your roommates, right? Most of them. Passionistas: Tell us about why you chose to write a book about Janis Joplin and what you learned about her that you found most fascinating from writing the book. Holly: I have to say part of it, I mean, I really believe that my subjects also choose me somehow. Again, following my passion, I ended up in a place where it just kind of comes together and with Janice for years, of course I had loved her music. She was definitely an inspiration for me growing up again in this tiny town in North Carolina, that didn't have a lot going on for me as far as the kind of things I was interested in. And now again, I might be like one of my biography subjects, but I think I saw her on the Dick Cavett show and just her whole look and attitude and sensibility and not to mention her incredible voice. I'm like, what's that? I want to be that. She was probably actually a little did I know at the time wearing this outfit that Nudie made for her. Of course. I was one of those people that was devastated when she died in 1970 and in 1971 I had joined the Columbia Record Blub and got Pearl. I still have my original copy. So just a fan and then once I was working at Rolling Stone and started doing projects with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the Hall of Fame did a really cool symposium on Janis back in the nineties, I think it was ‘97. And Bob Santoli, the head of education, VP of education and programming at the time invited me to be part of it and I'm, I got to go to Cleveland and give a talk about Janice's influence on contemporary women musicians, but the best part was I got to meet Janice's brother and sister Michael and Laura. I got to meet Sam Andrew, her a guitar player, Chet Holmes, who was the manager for Big brother and the Holding Company and started the Avalon Ballroom dances there back in the ‘60s some other people to her, John Cook, her road manager. So I got to meet all these people. Then lo and behold, they did an American masters, American Music masters panel on Janice or weekend symposium on Janice again in 2009 I believe it was. And once again this time, um, and powers and I were asked to give talks about, Janis kind of a keynote thing with Lucy O'Brien, a grade a woman, rock journalists who's based in London. So the three of us kind of gave a joint keynote and again got to meet all these amazing people. So I just kind of got to learn more and more and more about Janice and about her music. The thing that really got me was I was asked to write liner notes for this two CD set called the Pearl sessions that Sony was doing in the early teens. And for the first time they had gone into the vaults and pulled out all this talk back between Janice and Paul Rothchild, her producer, who was known for being a very authoritarian producer. Like he worked with Joni Mitchell and one of her first or I think or second album. And she's like, no, I can't work with him. He's too bossy. He tells me what to, you know, so she wouldn't work with him. He famously produced most of the Door's albums and he would make Jim Morrison like redo his vocal like 10 times or whatever. But he listening to them in the studio together, I'm like, Oh my gosh, this woman is calling the shots. Janis Joplin is telling Paul Rothchild like, Oh wait, let's slow it down here. Wait, let's try a different arrangement on this. Let's have this guitar part here. I mean, she was basically producing the record with him. She's never gotten credit really for being this very thoughtful orchestrator of music and hardworking musician. She created a very different image of herself in order to sell herself as a persona, this rock persona. And she was very successful at that and I think I, and almost everybody else bought it, but I realized from listening to these recordings that there was a whole other side to her, this musician side, that she wasn't just blessed born with this incredible voice that she just came out of the box singing. She worked, she really worked. And that very much intrigued me and that made me more interested in wanting to spend four and a half, five years working on Janice's life story and trying to make a write a book about her that shows her trajectory as a musician because you know, there had been some other books, some very well researched. I'm Alice Echols wrote a great book about Janis with a lot of research, but I felt still that somehow or musicianship and had not ever been acknowledged the extent that it should have been. So that was kind of my goal for this book to really find out who her musical influences were. What did she do to improve her craft, or how did she discover her voice? What were the obstacles she had to overcome, all those kinds of things. So that really fired me up. And again, my wonderful agent, Sara Liaison, who had actually been the agent for Laura Joplin's book that she wrote called “Love Janice,” which told her story of growing up with Janice as her sister and used a lot of letters that Janice had written home. She reproduced a lot of the letters in the book and my agent told Laura about me and I had met her back in the nineties and so I was able to come to an agreement that, again, similar to the Autry book, they would allow me to go into Janice's personal files or scrapbooks or letters, and I could use all that in my book, but without any controls over what I wrote, they would not have any editorial approvals or anything like that. So again, that's, that's how that came about. Passionistas: And your other current passion, you've touched on it a couple times, but tell us a little bit more about “Rhinestone Cowboy,” the story of Nudie. Holly: I think there's kind of a pattern here. You can see that none of these, I'm no one overnights and station or whatever. All of my projects really, they come from years of passionately pursuing something just really for the love of it, more than with any sort of goal in mind. And that's kind of the same story with Nudie. As I mentioned, I was a collector of Western where I worked on the, “How the West Was Worn” book and that's when I really learned about Nudie, who was this very showman, like couturier the Dior of the sagebrush or whatever they used to call him, who catered to early on cellular Lloyd Cowboys, people like gene Autry. And Roy Rogers was a huge client and then all the stars like Hank Williams making their incredible embroidered outfits. Then he started putting rhinestones on the outfits. I'm for a country in Western singers. And then in the late sixties people like Graham Parsons, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Janice, the Grateful Dead, the Rolling Stones, Elton John all started going there, getting these really outrageous over the top and bordered and rhinestone suits. So I learned about him gradually and then it turns out through doing “How the West Was Worn,” I met Patrine Day Mitchum, who herself had actually hung out at Nudie's back in the ‘70s, knew him and he had tapped her to write his memoir with him. So she has hours and hours and hours of taped, uh, recordings with him telling his fascinating story about being an immigrant as a young boy from the Ukraine to New York, all these ups and downs. He went through very colorful stories that finally landed him in Los Angeles in the late forties and started his shop and started making outfits for all these Western swing performers. Tex Williams was his first. So we teamed up and started talking literally back in 2002 about, Oh, we should do a project together about Nudie. Should we do a book, because should we do a film? And so literally, all these years later now, we've actually started working on our documentary. In the meantime, I had worked on several documentaries over the years as a consulting producer and producer on lots of music documentaries that have been on PBS, etc. So I had that experience. And then Trina has worked in the film industry over the years as well. So we were able to kind of combine our passion for Nudie and his incredible clothing and some of the other outfits were made by some other great, also immigrants from Eastern Europe. This guy named Turk who was out on the end. VanNess was the first one. His shop opened in 1923 and then back in Philadelphia on the East coast rodeo. Ben had a shop beginning in 1930 all three of them in Nudie where they came from. Eastern Europe was young boys, young men, and then also the whole story of the immigrants from Mexico. Manuel who still at age 86 is designing these incredible outfits in Nashville. He worked with Nudie and Heimaey Castenada who is still right there in North Hollywood, making incredible outfits for Chris Isaac and Billy Gibbons and Dwight Yoakam. So it's a bigger story. Even then I realized as far as it's a story of immigrants coming to this country and creating the iconic American look, the rhinestone cowboy outfit. Right. So go figure. Passionistas: Looking back on your journey so far, is there one decision you've made that you consider the most courageous? That sort of changed your trajectory? Holly: Oh, I guess it was just picking up and moving to New York city with, I had a little audio cassette player. You remember those? It was even pre Walkman. I had that. If you could set mix tapes or suitcase and that was it. 500 bucks, maybe 700 I don't know. Just kind of moved to New York and I mean, I think, I guess that was the smartest thing I ever did because basically in New York I made lifelong friends. I met my husband, he was playing in a band, the flesh tones. Um, we were on a double bill. My band does for line. So that's how we met in the 80s all these passions, some of which I had as a young girl growing up in North Carolina, I was literally able to materialize into projects, into a lifestyle and into a livelihood. I mean, gosh, I mean, how lucky am I that that happened? Things that could have just been a hobby actually became a way of life and an occasional paycheck here and there. So I feel very, very lucky. And I think moving to New York city, almost at a whim, I went to school at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. So I had two sides of my personality, the former hippie Janice wannabe, and the punk rocker. So when I was going to leave Chapel Hill, I'm like, well, I'm either gonna move to New York City or Key West. So I think it's a good thing. I moved to New York city. Passionistas: What's your secret to a rewarding life? Holly: Again, and I teach, I tell my students this, whatever you do, if you can pursue it with passion. You guys nailed it with the name of your podcast. Because if you can approach even, you know, path things with passion, you know, with anger or … of one with passion, I think, you know, whatever it is, if you can just engage and be passionate about things that's going to enrich your life. I mean it can maybe take its toll on you too. But I think how that kind of feeling and motivation that you're driven by the passion of whatever it is that you're thinking about or wanting to learn about or whatever, you're going to do a much better job with whatever it is you're pursuing. Passionistas: What's your definition of success? Holly: I guess success is not only attaining a goal that you had for yourself, but within that goal also having happiness and a good state of mind about it. Because I think horribly, you know, in our culture, a lot of people that find certain success, you know, material success or even career success, there's other aspects of their life that is not working out too well. So that's not really success is that I think you have to put all the parts of the puzzle together so that they're all kind of working out together to really be successful. It's tricky. It's difficult because life has a way of throwing lots of curve balls at ya. Passionistas: So what advice would you give to a young woman who wants to be a journalist or an author? Holly: First off, subscribe to your podcast. And seriously, I think surrounding yourself or finding out about or listening to other people who are passionate about things that you're interested in doing or even if it's something different, but people that their passion is driven them to be successful or to work towards attaining success, that that can be very inspirational and motivational for them. And then also not just do things through rote or whatever. You have to really find something that energizes you and does and passion you to want to pursue it, and I think that's really important and not do something just because you're supposed to or someone tells you you should do this, but you have to really find things that are going to bring you fulfillment. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Holly George-Warren to find out more about her latest book, “Janice: Her Life and Music,” visit HollyGeorgeWarren.com. And don't forget, our quarterly subscription box The Passionistas Project Pack goes on sale October 30th. Each box is filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list@thepassionistasproject.com to get 10% off your first purchase. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

Tamara K. Anderson interviews Sarah Gowans on the Stories of Hope in Hard Times podcast. After a bike crash, Sarah’s daughter was diagnosed with kidney disease, and then her marriage fell apart. She shares lessons on survival with God’s help.Sarah Gowans: Lessons from a Bike Crash, Kidney Disease, and DivorceBioSometimes people have periods of their life that seem to follow the saying,“when it rains, it pours.” Sarah Gowans had 3 years (2009-2012) where things seemed to go from bad to worse. First, she was hit by a car while riding her bike, then her daughter almost died from Kidney disease, and while she was helping her daughter recover her husband told her he no longer wanted to be married.Sarah is a wife and mother of 5 daughtersShe has been studying health and wellness for over 10 years.Sarah is a Licensed Massage Therapist and a member of the American Footzonology® Practitioners Association.She has presented on health, relationships, and lifestyle on radio, and other various events.Sarah is a lover of nature, hiking, running, cycling, and water and snow skiing, yoga, and strength training.She is an avid reader.She also spends time each day meditating and connecting with her spirit and God.Bike CrashSarah had a car turn in front of her while she was biking and hit the car with her head, shoulders and face. It was the most painful thing she had experienced up to that point. Miraculously she didn’t break any bones, but did chip some teeth, had a big gash and some pretty sore.This was her little wake-up call, even though Sarah didn’t know it yet. Life was about to change for her and it was time to do some growing.First Lessons LearnedWork with your healthcare practitioners to help you take care of body especially when you go through physical trauma.Prioritize taking care of your body because you need your health to keep going.Sarah feels like the pain and recovery she experienced after the bike crash was physical pain, whereas the pain she would soon experience was more emotional and spiritual pain. She explained that if she had to pick between physical pain and emotional pain, she would pick physical pain every time.Daughter with Kidney FailureOne day Sarah noticed that her 7-year-old daughter Halle looked heavier all of the sudden. A few days later as she went to help her bathe, she noticed even more that her body just looked swollen. Halle’s ankles, stomach and even eyelids were swollen, and Sarah knew this wasn’t normal.So, she took her to the doctor who did some blood and urine tests to see if they could figure out what was wrong. The doctor called them to come back when the tests were done and had them come right back into his office instead of going to the waiting room. That was Sarah’s first clue that something was really wrong.The pediatrician told them there was something wrong with Halle’s kidneys, and because he had studied with a nephrologist (kidney doctor) at one point he was able to recognize the signs and symptoms before she got worse. He said he believed their daughter had Minimal Change Disease.What is Minimal Change Disease?Minimal Change Disease is a disease of the kidneys. The first thing to know is that kidneys are supposed to filter waste out of our blood several times per day. Kidneys are supposed to leave proteins in the blood, but Halle’s kidneys were filtering the protein out and it was spilling over into her urine. This causes edema, or swelling.The reason it is called Minimal Change Disease is that if you were to compare a healthy kidney biopsy and with a diseased kidney biopsy under a regular microscope, they would look the same. It isn’t until you look at the biopsies under an electron microscope where you can see that the filters aren’t working. This is why it is called Minimal Change Disease–because you can’t see a change under a regular microscope.Blessings and TreatmentThe fact that their pediatrician diagnosed Halle correctly quickly was the first blessing Sarah noted because often patients go undiagnosed for many weeks while doctors urge their patients to change their diets and try other remedies. The wait is not good for the kidneys.They ended up going to a nephrologist up at the University of Utah, and the doctors gave Halle a good prognosis. They thought they’d be able to manage the disease with steroids.Sarah realized how serious this was when she took her first prescription of Prednisone to be filled at the pharmacy and the pharmacist looked at the prescription and told her the doctor must have made a mistake because that dose was way too high for a 7-year-old girl. Sarah just burst into tears because she knew it wasn’t written incorrectly–it had to be a high dose to kick Halle’s kidneys into gear.They were hopeful that these massive doses of steroids would help her kidneys and decrease the swelling that was so painful. As they started the high dose it would decrease the swelling, but the doctors didn’t want to keep her at such a high dose, so they would then taper her down, and the swelling would increase again. So it was a cycle for several months up and down.Prayers Don’t WorkOne night in particular, Halle came to them in tears begging that they would help her because it felt like there were knives in her legs. Of course as a mom, Sarah wanted so badly to just take the pain away.Sarah grew up believing in God and so it was natural for her to turn to God and pray with Halle for relief from the pain. Unfortunately even with the prayers the pain didn’t decrease. Halle eventually just cried herself to sleep. This went on for a while and it was so hard for Sarah to watch her daughter suffer.After several cycles and Halle coming to her for comfort and prayers, Halle finally told Sarah, “Mom, we’ve said prayers. Prayers don’t work. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t help.” Sarah’s heart sank, but she knew her daughter was right. Prayer wasn’t changing anything yet she didn’t want Halle to lose her faith so young.Crisis of FaithThat night Sarah went to her knees and prayed for help. She was almost to the point of losing faith herself. It was a crisis of faith for her. She had believed in God her whole life and her life had been pretty good so far. This was the hardest trial she had experienced until that point.She began to wonder if God really was there. Her child could be dying and she was doing the best that she could. It seemed like God was silent.Sarah began to wonder what she really believed. Did she believe that God really did answer prayers even when He was silent?Sarah wondered how much faith she really had if this was all it took to knock her off the rails. She came to the conclusion that either she had faith or she didn’t. She knew she didn’t feel God right then, but decided she could choose faith or not.She decided to choose faith.What Helped Sarah Choose Faith?When I asked Sarah what made her choose faith she said it was a combination of a few things:It was deeply ingrained in her soul that God lived. She had been taught that since she was little.Sarah also remembered times in the past where she knew that God had answered her prayers. She had also had experiences where she knew God was there.She decided she knew her faith was deeper than her doubts, and she thinks that is because she chose to read her scriptures, pray, and do things to bring her closer to God for many years.Finally–An AnswerAfter Sarah made the decision to choose faith, she prayed for some kind of answer to know what to tell Halle so she didn’t lose faith. The answer didn’t come right away, but as she was reading in her scriptures the next day the answer finally came.Sarah was reading about a people that were in bondage and were slaves and they cried unto God because the burden was too heavy. God told them that He would make their burdens light so that they could continue to carry the heavy load.This was her answer. The answer wasn’t that God would take the burden away. The answer was that God would make them stronger so they could carry the burden. She realized then that this was part of her journey and Halle’s journey to make them both stronger and it wasn’t right for her to try to pray that away.So, Sarah knew she needed to change her prayer that God would strengthen them to bear their burden. This was hard because as a parent she wanted to take her daughter’s burden away. Sarah didn’t want to see Halle suffer, but she also knew now that she needed to be strong for her.So, Sarah took Halle aside and taught her God’s answer and that they did need to change their prayer that she would be strengthened as she carried her burden. It was a powerful teaching moment for her and Halle to realize that God is there and He answers their prayers.This lesson is applicable to all of us who struggle and want our burdens taken away. Sometimes we just need to change our prayer and ask God to help make us stronger so we can bear the challenge.Other Lessons from Kidney DiseaseDon’t blow up the problem in your mind and make it worse than it is. We sometimes imagine the worst case scenario and then spend so much time worrying that is going to happen, when it doesn’t.Halle was prayed over or “blessed” several times and told she would be okay. And then she would relapse and Sarah would wonder why she wasn’t okay. Sarah learned that God’s timing is not our timing and that truly in the end Halle was okay, but just not as quickly as Sarah hoped she would be.So Sarah developed patience as she learned to trust in God and his timing (even though it just wasn’t as fast as she had hoped it would be.) Never pray for patience, by the way. God seems to know we need patience and He gives us ample opportunities to develop it over days, weeks and years. These growing pains take time, and we need to allow God to work and change our insides.To conclude this part of the story, Halle went through several more cycles over the next 5 years and even had to try chemotherapy to finally get her kidneys to respond normally. She hasn’t had a relapse since she was 12-years-old.Marital Challenges & DivorceSarah was in the car accident in August 2009, Halle began having kidney problems in September, and then in January 2010 her husband came to her and said. “I don’t think I love you anymore and I don’t want to be married anymore.”This happened right as she was taking care of her daughter, getting up in the middle of the night to give her medication.This was devastating to Sarah! She was shocked and surprised!She told him that they could do this and she was willing to go to counseling.Counseling“Never in my mind was divorce an option for me” Sarah admitted.So, they started going to counseling. But he wasn’t sure if he wanted to be married–he was kind of on the fence.Finally their counselor told him, “I cannot counsel someone who isn’t sure if they want to be married or not. So, you need to decide. Either you are in or you are out. If you are in, then I can counsel you. If you’re not sure, there is nothing I can do.”So, he stopped going to counseling because he needed time to think about this decision. Meanwhile, Sarah kept going to counseling so she could deal with the situation.So, they lived in limbo for about a year. Living is limbo is so hard! Anyone who has ever been paralyzed by this type of indecision of not knowing how things will turn out knows how hard this is.“If you are waiting and you can’t move forward, it is hard!” Sarah commented.Sarah now feels that this “limbo” time gave her time to work on herself.Her counselor recommended a book called, The Road Less Traveled, which started an inner journey for her. “Regardless of whether my marriage worked out or not, I needed to work on me.” Lesson: Putting God FirstSarah came to realize through this journey that she depended on her husband for her happiness and security, and that at times she even placed him before God. And that wasn’t how it was supposed to be.“That is one of the things I came to realize, that I need to rely more on God and less on man. It is crucial that God is first in our lives,” Sarah emphasized.So, Sarah was able to develop true faith and trust in God. She had to ask herself, if her husband were gone, would she still have faith in God?Sarah came to realize that she could not control her husband. She could only control herself and her decisions and actions.She spent this year, strengthening her faith, strengthening her character, figuring out who she really was as a daughter of God.Here are the 6 Things Sarah Did to Deepen Her Relationship With GodShe spent time in prayer: “I really learned during that time to talk to Heavenly Father instead of just saying a prayer.”Reading the book The Road Less Traveled, helped guide her on this journey.Sarah learned to meditate–meditates means she cleared out the negative, and said positive affirmations.She also learned to study her scriptures looking for answers instead of just reading them to check a box in her head.Sarah also thought about and found things to be grateful for–and thanked God for these things.She also found great value in being still.Up until this point, Sarah lived the gospel of Jesus Christ in her head. She knew it was good and right, but it wasn’t in her heart.Favorite Bible VersePhilippians 4:13, “I can do all things through Christ…” became Sarah’s favorite scripture through all of these trials because she knew she couldn’t do it on my own. It was too big. She needed Him!Lesson: ForgivnessSarah shared the story of how it was hard for her to be able to forgive when the pain was so deep. She tells the story of knowing a meeting was coming up where she would have to face someone she knew she needed to forgive, but it was just so very heavy. She knew she couldn’t do it on her own.Finally, in desperation, Sarah dropped to her knees and told God how she wanted to forgive this person but needed and begged for help. She said she was putting out the intention and desire to forgive, but the burden of the pain seemed to big to be able to overcome on her own.What happened during the meeting was a miracle, “Christ came in and took my heart and He put His heart in my heart. and I just melted and I genuinely wanted to give that person a hug and tell them ‘I forgive you.’ It was not me. It was Christ stepping in and doing what I could not do on my own.”Sarah said there are some people like Corrie Ten Boom in The Hiding Place who went through so much worse in a concentration camp, but she too had a miraculous experience where she was able to forgive.You don’t have to carry pain and sorrow and heavy burdens on our own–turn it over to God.Tip: Forgive sooner versus later so you don’t have to carry it around so long.Lesson: There is Great Power in Good MusicThere were times when Sarah didn’t think she could go any further, even with God’s help. She felt very lonely.There were three songs she played repeatedly when she was in despair:Sarah’s Dark Days Playlist“Strong Enough” by Matthew West“When Faith Endures” by Alex Boyé“Beautiful Heartbreak” by Hilary Weeks“When you are given a heavy burden that is hard to bear, let music help lift you,” Sarah advised.Cut out the yucky music and media and replace it with positive and uplifting music. It will cheer you up and help you keep going.Lesson: Journaling and CounselingIt is important to process things that are heavy either in writing or talking it out or perhaps doing a bit of both.One counselor, Andrea Carver, taught Sarah to keep both a dark notebook and a light notebook. You write your dark, negative thoughts in the dark one and your positive thoughts in the light one.Get those negative thoughts out of your head. Don’t give them power–write them down. Get them out and then heal.An important thing to remember is to write two light thoughts for every dark thought.If you aren’t a writer, go to a therapist and get the negative stuff out that way.You do need to process all of the change and the hard things, and talking to a friend or therapist will help you do that. Journaling will also help you process your tough times.Be patient with yourself. Sarah had a point where she chanted the mantra, “I have to be like Christ, I have to be like Christ,” but then it dawned on her, “but I’m not Christ.”Be kind to yourself. Be like Christ, but remember we don’t have to be Him.Be human. Be where you are with the intention of improving.Contact Sarahwww.becomingme.bizAlthough Sarah is not currently working, this website has her info where people can reach out and find her.Shareable Thoughts & Memes 

Sarah Davis joined me on the podcast almost two years ago to share her plans to become the first woman to paddle the length of the Nile river. A journey of 6,853km / 4,200mi from the source of the Nile in Rwanda, all the way to Alexandria on the Mediterranean coast in Egypt, at the time we first spoke Sarah had anticipated the expedition would start in January 2018 and take 7 months. (You can find the show notes for that episode here) So Sarah returns to the podcast this week to share how it unfolded! Spoiler alert! Things didn’t all go according to plan and two key decisions meant that Sarah wasn’t able to achieve her original goal to paddle the length of the Nile. However, she has become the first woman to lead an expedition along the Nile. In this conversation, we discuss: - how she made the decision where to start her expedition; a harder decision with more options than you might think, - what she felt visiting the source of the Nile in Rwanda after 3+ years of planning, - the very angry hippo tried to flip and then bite a hole in their inflatable raft just 6 days into the expedition, - how she was arrested and detained for 3 days in Burundi, - the point at which she (and her team) decided to catch a ferry on Lake Victoria which meant she wouldn’t achieve her original goal to paddle the entire length of the river (and how disconnecting from ego and exploring her ‘why’ made the decision somewhat easier), - why she cried in a hotel restaurant the day after she finished her expedition, and - whether the expedition feels like unfinished business. Get the full show notes for the episode here. — Visit the Sparta Chicks Radio website here  Follow Sparta Chicks Radio on Facebook: facebook.com/SpartaChicks  Follow Sarah on Instagram: instagram.com/paddlethenile

Welcome back Paleo View listeners! (0:41) It has been a week for Sarah, but just a few days since Stacy and Sarah last recorded, as they recorded episode 369two days ago. Sarah thanked Stacy for pre-recording with her. While she hasn't talked about this much on social media, Sarah wanted to give this special group of listeners a unique window into her life. Sarah wanted to share what has been going on in her life. She has been in crisis mode, working through the steps of what she needs to get done. The next step is going to require that she travel all next week. She knew she wouldn't be able to record a full topic show. By the time this show goes live, it will have been almost two weeks since Sarah's father had a massive heart attack. He was on a city bus at the time that it happened, going into full cardiac arrest. Sarah's Dad was dead for three to four minutes, and there happened to be someone on the bus who really knew CPR. They were able to do CPR effectively until paramedics arrived. Once the paramedics arrived, it took two shocks to get his heart beating again. They were then able to transfer him and treat him at the hospital. Sarah's Dad will have a long recovery ahead of him, but he seems to be on the road to recovery. One of Sarah's big takeaways from this all was that her Dad didn't have emergency contact information attached to his identification or his file. The hospital didn't know who to call. Sarah's Dad was in the hospital for two days before Sarah and her family knew about what happened. Sarah was still waiting to receive her passport from her change in citizenship and hasn't been able to be with her family during this time. However, Sarah has been so impressed with how her brothers rose to the occasion. Once her passport did arrive, Sarah looked to her brothers to tell her how to jump in and help. The family doesn't yet know the endpoint of her Dad's recovery. If he will be able to live independently or if he is going to need someone to come into his apartment. There is no heart disease in Sarah's family that she knew about. This situation felt very out of the blue. Sarah shared more about how she is processing this event. In addition, Sarah shared more about how this is changing her habits around diet and lifestyle. Sarah is walking more, making sure that she is going to bed early, eating more vegetables, and eating sardines for breakfast daily. (11:50) Soon Sarah will be heading home to help out as much as she can. The plan is to take this all one step at a time. Stacy shared her love for Sarah and her family during this time. When Matt was in a terrible car accident, Stacy learned the importance of having emergency contact information on hand. Stacy thanked Sarah for pointing this out. Sarah has found many life lessons throughout this whole experience. Stacy asked Sarah to share more about the healing and recovery foods she mentioned earlier in the show. (17:36) Sarah is trying to make soups and stews that will be easy for her Dad to reheat. She is also focusing on the nutrients that will help with his healing process. A really big thing for heart health is omega-3 fats and monounsaturated fats. One of the things that Sarah will be doing is making sure he has high-quality olive oil to cook with. When taking fish oil, capsules are better. Capsule form protects from oxidation. Sarah particularly looks for tuna oil as an ingredient, as it is high in DHA. Sarah will also put her Dad on Just Thrive probiotic. In addition, Sarah will make sure she is helping to increase her Dad's vegetable intake. At home, Sarah uses pumpkin or overly cooked cauliflower, to then blend and thicken the stew. This is a great way to hide extra vegetables and increase vegetable intake. Stacy loves this method of stew prep as well. She personally loves to use roasted butternut squash as her thickener. Before leaving to be with her Dad, Sarah is also working to fill her own freezer with nutrient-dense meals for her husband and daughters. Sarah will be also checking her Dad's snack supply once she arrives at his house. She will make sure that he has unsalted nuts around, like pecans, walnuts, macadamia nuts, and cashews. To make it even easier for him, she will likely measure out the portions and prepare individual serving sizes for her Dad to grab. In addition, Sarah plans to talk to her Dad's doctor about adding a CoQ10 supplement. Sarah will also be looking at her Dad's potassium intake and adding in potassium-rich fruits and vegetables. When you are sick and recovering from something you don't want to eat something that feels foreign. (27:13) Sarah has had other friends in her life, where she has seen how challenging it is when you are recovering from something to modify your diet at the same time. If her Dad doesn't like something he simply won't eat it. So Sarah needs to find a way to get the nutrient-dense foods into him while he is recovering and not feeling well. Eventually, Sarah will also look to get her Dad's vitamin D levels tested. B vitamins, all of the antioxidant vitamins and all of the electrolyte minerals are really important when it comes to heart health. As long as you are eating good vegetables, you will be meeting these needs. However, since Sarah lives so far away, she isn't sure what her Dad is eating on a regular basis. Sarah also plans to get her Dad walking on a regular basis, but it will be a slow start as his heart heals. If any of The Paleo View listeners have cardiovascular disease risk factors and you are interested in digging into it a little bit more, Sarah recommends that you get enough sleep every night. Sleeping less than six hours a night doubles your risk of stroke and heart attack. Stress and activity are also very important. (30:39) The only other key thing that Sarah recommends, is getting genetic testing for APOE. If cardiovascular disease runs in your family, getting tested for APOE is a really good thing. Sarah personally likes MaxGen Labs for genetic testing. However, even a functional medicine doctor can add it to a blood test and just check for your gene variance of that one gene. Stacy thanked Sarah for taking the time to both tell listeners what is happening and to share this helpful information. If you have further questions on this topic, please feel free to pass those questions on. They may be incorporated into future shows or blog posts. Thank you for tuning in and being here! Stacy and Sarah will be back next week! (35:17)

We recently hosted a conversation between Sarah Paiji Yoo, Co-Founder & CEO at Blueland, and Chris Guest, Lean Startup Co. Advisor, about how becoming a mom led Sarah to create a company that is reimagining how we consume household products to eliminate the need for wasteful plastic packaging. In Chris and Sarah’s conversation, they discuss: - How Sarah got the idea for Blueland and why she felt so compelled to solve the problem of wasteful plastic packaging. - How the team developed and tested their first product idea: toothpaste - How they took these initial learnings and pivoted to cleaning spray products. And much, much more… When serial entrepreneur Sarah Paiji Yoo became a new mom, she wasn’t looking to find her next business idea. She had made the conscious decision to step back from work to find a balance between being a new parent and being a businesswoman. But it was the very act of being a mom that gave her the idea for what would eventually become her company, Blueland. Sarah was horrified to discover how many microplastics are in the water she was using to mix formula for her baby — the very same water that we all drink. She discovered that all of the plastic we consume in society is ending up in our oceans and waterways where they’re broken down into microscopic microplastics that end up in our food and drinking water. So Sarah made the conscious decision to cut back on her own plastic consumption. But she quickly discovered that was easier said than done. Oftentimes, there aren't any items on the shelves that give consumers a choice to opt for something more eco-conscious. From ketchup bottles to toothpaste to detergent, it’s all single-use plastic packaging. But rather than getting discouraged, Sarah got an idea. She realized that she could go beyond having an impact on her personal consumption, by creating products that gave all consumers a more Earth-friendly alternative. Email us: education@leanstartup.co Follow Lean Startup Co. @leanstartup https://leanstartup.co/education

Not Just A Hospital — Healthcare Philanthropy — The Integris Foundation A very emotional podcast with Jon and Anne at the Integris Foundation. For this interview I sat down with Jonathon McCoy and Anne Clouse to talk about healthcare philanthropy.A lot of people see the Integris centers across the metro and think it’s just a hospital. Personally I hate hospitals, the smell and the color of the décor. For me hospitals are a bad place, or I thought they were. To clarify, this is from my experience back in the UK. Jon and Anne came on the podcast to share their personal stories about how Integris has played a huge part of their lives and how they through their work at the foundation help those who need it.There are many inspirational stories from this podcast but I’ll just touch on a couple of them. Integris is the largest Oklahoma governed health institution and it’s a non-profit. All the money is reinvested in the business and caring for those in need through the foundations.Jon has two sets of twins. How awesome is that! Both his twins had care at Integris and seeing that his gift back to fertility helped pay for the equipment that they used to care for his wife and then his twins once they were born.I asked Jon and Anne what they think of when they hear their mission statement“ Your passion changes lives” Both shared the story of Sarah Brumley who was diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer with a 6% chance of living more than 5 years. Sarah worked with the Integris cancer institute and the integrated medicine program, which is a holistic way to help patients through their diagnosis. This is not covered by insurance. So Sarah and the Integris Foundation challenged everyone at the Integris Gala to raise money for her project to help others without the ability to pay for this program.At the Gala Sarah’s goal was to raise $5000. At the end of the night 700 guests raised $189,000. Sarah’s passion for helping others from her diagnosis is now a fully funded program in the Integris Foundation. Sarah survived 4 years and sadly passed but she’s left this legacy behind and cared for hundreds of others.If you’ve ever given anything to charity and had a personal connection to that person or the lives you have impacted the high is hard to explain. Anne mentions that high is almost a selfish feeling to helping people because the high she gets from changing someone’s life is so good, she wants to keep doing it.I asked Jon and Anne how working here at the Foundation and in healthcare philanthropy impacted how you see the world. How it impacts your day-to-day life. They both mentioned perspective, how raising 35Million for their Arcadia Trails project seems like too big of a task. But after hard work they received multiple seven figure donations. Seeing who is giving and the way they are giving is comforting regardless of how much it is, they want to give is.Events coming up, the foundation has a golf tournament on October 22ndat Jimmie Austin GC in Norman. This is going to be one of the best events you have ever played in. If you would like to donate reach out to integrisgolf.org If you are a food vendor and want to donate or be a part of the event also reach out to the website above.Thanks for reading I hope this gives you a better incite into The Integris Foundation. Follow them on social media Integris Foundation. Integrisgiving.org and sign up to their monthly newsletter to see the difference that’s being made.Mike @thisisoklahoma

First Draft Episode #206: Stephanie Perkins and Sarah Enni I was thrilled to do an event with Stephanie Perkins, New York Times bestselling author of Anna and the French Kiss, editor of My True Love Gave to Me, and many more. We met at Malaprop’s, Stephanie’s local bookstore in Asheville, North Carolina, to discuss villains in contemporary stories, our favorite podcasts, and the upcoming Netflix movie based on Stephanie’s most recent novel, There’s Someone Inside Your House! Links and Topics Mentioned In This Episode In Tell Me Everything By Sarah Enni, the main character Ivy uses a Post Secret type app called Veil and is faced with the moral ambiguity of social media apps. Ivy deals with the negativity of social media and twisting herself into knots trying to defend something that is special to her. The first time that Sarah was in Asheville she was interviewed Beth Revis (Author of Across The Universe, listen to her episode of First Draft here), Meagan Spooner (Author of The Starbound Trilogy , listen to her episode of First Draft here), and Megan Sheperd (Author of Grim Lovelies, listen to her episode of First Draft here) for First Draft and she was able to reach out to them through Twitter. She believes that social media is morally gray because sites like Twitter have helped her make friends and connect with people but have also dismantled other peoples lives. The creator of the app Veil is a villain called Rake Burmkezerg which is an acronym for Mark Zuckerberg. Rake creates an app that fosters a lot of negativity but wants to take no accountability for it which is what makes him the villain. During her writing process, Sarah got the chance to explore her feelings about the people who have created the systems that are in charge and so much apart of our lives now e.g. Larry Ellison (Founder of Oracle Corporation) , Mark Zuckerberg (CEO of Facebook) and Jack Dorsey (CEO of Twitter). They manage a huge part of their lives and are met with almost no accountability. Stephanie was previously seen as an exclusively Romance genre was always interested in True Crime, Horror and Thrillers. There’s Someone Inside Your House is her first thriller. Scream (movie), was very influential to Stephanie as a child and turned her from a very frightened child into someone who saw how fun they could be and how they could be a safe place to explore your fears. Most of Stephanie’s horror background comes from Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton as well as Stephen King novels. There’s Someone Inside Your House is a very traditional thriller but Stephanie wanted to keep the killer's point of view out of it. Since our society celebrates villains like Hannibal Lecter and Freddy vs. Jason (movie) she wanted to take that element out of the story and focus on the victims. Netflix has purchased There’s Someone Inside Your House a year ago and Stephanie has received the script! Henry Gayden is the screenwriter for the project and also the screenwriter for Shazam! (movie) as well as the Spider-man: Into the Spiderverse sequel (movie). Judy Blume’s books talk about Belted undergarments and are dated but still end up being universal and timeless. So Sarah doesn’t worry about her books becoming dated and writes about what is relevant to her book now. Sarah Enni’s First Draft Podcast episode in which she talks about her positive high school experience which also inspired the high school in Tell Me Everything. In the eighth grade, Sarah realized her favorite movie Rushmore was her favorite movie and Radiohead was her favorite band. And she still goes back to that person to check in to make sure she’s still in touch with it and that’s were her pull to the YA genre came from. Sarah loves NPR and started this podcast because she always wanted to be Nina Totenberg. Sarah and Stephanie podcast recommendations: How Did This Get Made, Welcome to Nightvale, Truth and Justice with Bob Ruff, and My Favorite Murder. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis was very influential to Stephanie to the point where she named her cat Mr. Tumnus. When writing Anna and the French Kiss, Lola and the Boy Next Door and Isla and the Happily Ever After, Stephanie wanted to take elements of fairy-tales and even paranormal romance and pull that off with a realistic ending. She wanted the idea of two teenagers who are meant to be and will be together forever. I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! Have a question about writing or creativity for Sarah Enni or her guests to answer? To leave a voicemail, call (818) 533-1998. You can also email the podcast at firstdraftwithsarahenni@gmail.com.  SUBSCRIBE TO FIRST DRAFT WITH SARAH ENNI Every Tuesday, I speak to storytellers like Veronica Roth, author of Divergent; Linda Holmes, author and host of NPR’s Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast; Jonny Sun, internet superstar, illustrator of Lin-Manuel Miranda’s Gmorning, Gnight! and author and illustrator of Everyone’s an Aliebn When Ur a Aliebn Too;  Michael Dante  DiMartino, co-creator of Avatar: The Last Airbender; John August, screenwriter of Big Fish, Charlie’s Angels, and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory; or Rhett Miller, musician and frontman for The Old 97s. Together, we take deep dives on their careers and creative works. Don’t miss an episode! Subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. It’s free! 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Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. 9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said. 10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” 13 Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”

It’s a dawn of a new day. The secondary market is scrambling to find a new home and we look at the impact this has on bourbon growth. MGP stock prices took a major hit after reports came out that aged stock hasn’t been selling and we look at new competitors in the bulk contract game. Missouri is putting itself on the map having a legally designated bourbon, but are there ulterior motives? With Knob Creek re-instating the 9 year age statement, does it make it one of the best values in bourbon? With all of these coming together, how are brands being perceived? All this on Bourbon Community Roundtable #35 Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Reddit AMA with the Russell’s https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/cme0nf/hey_reddit_im_wild_turkey_master_distiller_eddie/ This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about drinking bourbon how you want. Let's discuss the fallout of the secondary market on Facebook. How do you think the secondary groups will shift? What do you think of the MGP stock plummeting? https://www.barrons.com/articles/mgp-ingredients-stock-aged-whiskey-sales-earnings-51564610232 Is MPG now competing with new distillate like Willet? Do they still have higher age bourbon stock? Let's talk about the new Missouri rules for bourbon. http://whiskyadvocate.com/missouri-bourbon-whiskey-style/ Do you think this will happen in other states? What do you think of Knob Creek restoring their 9-Year Age Statement? http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2019/06/knob-creek-to-restore-9-year-age.html Are Knob Creek picks the best value in bourbon? Is the market oversaturated with Knob Creek picks? Have you seen variances in Knob Creek single barrel picks? How do you perceive brands when they raise prices? Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from breakingbourbon.com, and Sara from barbelleblog.com for joining. 0:00 Have you held a bottle of bourbon in your hand and wondered how that was made? Sure there is the grains and the barrels and all the science that goes into it. But what about the packages on glass manufacturing, shipping logistics, or purchase orders for thousands of cork stoppers. These are only a handful of things you need to know. But with the University of Global's new online distilled spirits business certificate, you're only a few clicks away learning from industry experts. all that's required is a bachelor's degree. Go to business.louisville.edu slash online spirits. We got the four of us tonight so we're going to like I said a little bit of a skeleton crew but that's okay. Also, just the four of us know Ryan either know Ryan either he's, he's not feeling too We. 0:45 We had it we had a pretty good week. Hey, everyone, 1:00 it's Episode 213 1:01 of bourbon pursuit. And this is a Community Roundtable recording. So we've only got just a little bit of news that we didn't talk about in the podcast. And the first one is there was a Reddit AMA or an asking anything with Bruce and Eddie Russell. There was a lot of talk about the cornerstone rye, which is part of their newest release. But there was one question that came up on the subject of dusty that I found pretty interesting. And talked about if there's any plans to release some older age dated bottles that have a similar makeup or construct a some of the dust sees that they've had before. Obviously, some of the thrill them is that they're no longer produced. And, you know, we've all had a taste of probably try some mid 80s, Wild Turkey, cheesy gold foil and the likes of that. And of course, many of us would like to think that hell that it's never going to happen. No one can replicate dusty, but here's what Eddie said in response to that. He said that there is some stuff development that's as close to cheesy gold foil. As we've gotten since that release. The taste is very similar. Well, that's quite the cliffhanger and that's about the juiciest detail I could find. If you want to read the entire Reddit AMA. You can get the link in our show notes. Today's episode was recorded back on Monday, August 5, which would have been Elmer T. Lee's 100th birthday. We talked a little bit on the show because Jordan gave us a reminder, but what we didn't expect was to see Buffalo Trace distillery, releasing a commemorative bottle in honor of his hundredth birthday. Here's a little information on Elmer that you may have never heard before. On August 5 1919 Elmer t Lee was born on a tobacco farm near peaks mill in Franklin County, Kentucky. Elmer served as a radar Bombardier on the 29 flights with the US Army Air Force in World War Two. After flying Michigan's Japan through 1945 Elmer was honorably discharged in 1940 six. He then earned an engineering degree from the University of Kentucky and graduated with honors in 1949. Upon graduation, he started work at the distillery which back then was known as the George t stag distillery, where he eventually was named General Manager. He worked at the distillery and kind of marking a milestone in his career, he created the first ever single barrel bourbon that was called Blanton's in 1984. He then retired in 1985. Elmer continued to serve as an ambassador for Buffalo Trace distillery, and the whiskey world up until his death in 2013. In honor what would have been almost 100 birthday Buffalo Trace distillery has announced they are releasing a 100 proof commemorative bottling of Elmer t leap, this 100 year tribute single barrel bourbon proceeds from the bottle of this sales will go towards the Frankfurt VFW post 4075 where else 4:00 was a former member. This is once again as you'd think a limited edition one time only release with the same age and Nashville as a standard routinely. But this whiskey is bottled at 100 proof and the suggested retail prices $100. Now, this Roundtable, it goes through a lot of topics where we start from the secondary market Fallout to deciding if bourbon brands care about their market perception. It's it really goes in a lot of different directions and I really hope you enjoy it. But for now, you're done listening to me. So let's go hear from my friend Joe over a barrell bourbon, and then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits, we enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cast rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Find out more at barrell bourbon.com. 4:54 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. This morning I made myself a big ol plate spaghetti for breakfast. That's right. I love eating weird things for breakfast sandwiches, steaks, spaghetti, random hot dogs, and so forth. I'm not a guy who typically follows the breakfast train of thought he have to have eggs and sausage. Although if I biscuits and gravy on the menu, it's over. I'm definitely ordering that. And I do like omelets. And you know, I like to play around. But I'm not someone who kind of follows the traditions of various meals. Sometimes I'll want eggs at dinner for example. And the only reason why I tell you this is because I feel like people in bourbon often want permission to drink bourbon a certain way or drink bourbon in the morning, you know before you go out fishing or at lunch when you're out with your colleagues. Bottom line is you drink bourbon how you want to and there are some rules that you should follow like I wouldn't if you spent 1500 dollars on a bottle of bourbon. I wouldn't mix it with coke if you paid $9 for one I would suggest like seeing if you really like it neat in you know, maybe use that as your cocktail mixing bourbon. But there really are no rules you drink bourbon how you want to. I will say that I've also stepped out of my comfort zone with bourbon in the last few years by making bourbon slushies. I think bourbon slushies are so wonderful and they tend to be the kind of wonderful introduction. It's a great way to introduce bourbon to someone who does not necessarily like bourbon or want to drink it neat. So if you have a little bit of time, go check out my bourbon slushy recipe, you'll be able to find it on bourbon plus.com here pretty soon. The irony of course is of just a few years ago, I was making fun of bourbon slushies. So let that be a warning to all of you. Be careful who you make fun of with what they drink is one day, you might find yourself pouring a little bit bourbon with a bunch of ice and lemon juice and sugar and making a slushy yourself. Also try spaghetti in the morning. It's pretty good. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram. That's at Fred Minnick again at Fred Minnick. Cheers. 7:22 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. This is the 35th recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. This is something where we get some of the best bloggers and best writers on the scene to come and just talk about what's happening in bourbon culture. And we are chock full with all kinds of things that have been happening in the past three weeks. This is something that we do every three weeks to kind of get caught up on really what's happening with bourbon news. And, you know, we're not going to talk too much about kind of what's on the horizon. Everybody knows that. It's fall season, Fall season means release season. So we might say that one for the next round table after this. But there's a new face of the Round Table tonight. So I want you to Sarah to everybody. So Sarah, welcome to the show. 8:09 Thank you. Thanks. I've been writing a little evil spirits for about, I guess, 20 years now. So I wrote for 15 years at Leo is the barbell and then now I'm over at a inserted level until Wednesday as the culture editor, and that's actually shutting down Wednesday. So if there's anybody in town or outside of town that needs bourbon content, let me know. 8:36 Yeah, she's she's being very, very modest about it. So Sarah havens was like, she was like the bourbon beat writer for Louisville. Like anytime there was a new release a distillery opening or anything like that it by far had the biggest traction that you saw of any sort of local publication. So she did a fantastic job and all her write ups and being able to come with a very journalistic perspective as well. So thank you. Yeah, you're giving yourself not a lot of credit, Terry, you need a little bit more. And so with that, let's go ahead and there's two more familiar faces in here. So you know, Blake, we're going to have you go last because you're you're always 9:18 Jordan, you're up, buddy. 9:19 Sure. This is Jordan, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon. You can find us at breaking bourbon and all the socials. Check out the website breaking bourbon, calm for your latest release calendar and reviews and articles. 9:33 Cheers. Awesome. Fall release seasons coming up. He's going to be a busy man. Very much so but not as busy as this man with his Microsoft paint job. 9:43 Hey, we upgraded they now make a WordPress app for filling in states on a map. So 9:51 they really they do. They've been alive. It's like 9:54 they made it just for you. I know in like a few years ago, I was trying to pay somebody a couple hundred bucks to do. Lo and behold, I found it for free. Even better, because you're in paint on me. So it really, really hurts the release maps. Am I up? Oh, you're up. Okay. I am Blake from bourbon or you can find me usually here every three to four weeks. I'm also bourbon or calm. BOURBO or burbonr.com. All the social medias as well as seal box calm. And we did get cool new seal box hats in. So yeah, I kind of testing out the new logo. And yeah, so maybe I'll give one away by the end or something. Since we're not allowed to do alcohol giveaways on or just we're not on Facebook or Instagram. So 10:47 what? So again right now. 10:50 So check it out. Thanks. 10:52 And I guess that kind of leads us into the first topic tonight is kind of that was the big news. You know, it was actually it was too too roundtables. Beta been three roundtables ago, when we had Craig, one of the admins from the bourbon secondary market, which was the largest Facebook group that was out there had around 50,000 people in it, and they got really kind of the first notice that, hey, things are going to start changing. They tried to change it, they tried to say, okay, we're not going to make this a selling form and try to change the rules. That lasted like three days. And then, about a week and a half ago, there was the the kind of basically the CNN article that went out, broke the news and said, Hey, everything that deals with cigarettes with guns with liquor, everything's gone. And I don't know about you all, but at least in the span of like, 72 hours, like half the groups I belong to, or just disappeared, 11:51 for sure. 11:52 Yeah. And so I guess I kind of work let's talk about the Fallout and kind of what we're seeing in regards of where everybody's going moving to in sort of where everything is, gravitating towards. And since Blake, you have by far probably now one of the largest Facebook groups out there that for bourbon. Is anybody come knock on your door yet? Or is it still kind of like a? I'm still in the clear? 12:17 Yeah, no, we've we've always tried to keep away from that from bourbon or, or with the bourbon or group just because I felt like there were other groups doing it and doing it well. And I there was always that thought in the back of Hey, what if Facebook did decide to care about this stuff. And that's what I think we're seeing now. So we haven't had any issues. But pretty much everyone knows, you know, it's not for buying, selling and trading will still get the occasional post of somebody, you know, they're doing a little fishing. But overall, we keep all that off. So I haven't seen any issues from it. I think it's interesting that, you know, Facebook's deciding to crack down. Buffalo Trace seems to be pretty, pretty outspoken about it as well. You know, but it's just whether you love it or hate it, that's a big part of kind of the enthusiast culture is, you know, even if you weren't buying, selling, or trading, you were still probably in those groups, just watching prices watching what goes on. So that's a big part of the group. And I think we'll get into that a little bit later on some of the MGP stuff. But 13:25 I know that's, that's actual stock markets. 13:29 Sorry, I read that wrong. But no, it is kind of a part of the culture. So it'll be interesting to see where that goes. For me. It's disappointing because you know, whether you had the money or not to buy, it's still cool to see all these old rare bottles in your newsfeed. So 13:48 yeah, I think you're right about that. I think the culture there in just the way that the secondary market have been built around, it is going to take a little bit of a hit. I mean, this is where even people that weren't really into bourbon, they got into it and they see stuff and they become wild and actually kind of almost accelerated the bourbon culture a little bit. 14:05 It's crazy for me why Buffalo Trace hate hates it so much. Because I mean, let's be honest with Pappy Van Winkle really be Pappy Van Winkle if there wasn't a lot of these guys. I mean, it's still be very popular. But how many guys got into it? Because it's like, oh, man, now I could turn around and sell this for profit. And then it just hyped it up even more. And now every article is like, oh, here's the bottle that sells for 20 $300. Well, it wasn't stores, increasing those prices, it was these Facebook groups that were increasing the market perception of it. So 14:41 I think that's going to be interesting too, is even if people didn't trade and they were in those groups, I think they used it to justify buying a lot more bourbon and in their entry into the hobby, quote, unquote, if you want to call it that, I mean, I know a ton of people who have massive collections, they would never sell it. But they always like saying, Oh, my collections worth 20, grand, 30 grand, right? And I'm like, Well, if you're never going to sell it, it's really not worth anything. Right. But I think they were able to justify that because they kept seeing all the all the bottles move on Facebook. So be interesting to see if those folks, you know, go to another platform, find different sites, or if they kind of shrug their shoulders now they go out all right on to the next thing. And I think that's, you know, that's going to be something that's going to take an unexpected, but a bigger see the overall picture of what's going on. 15:30 Sarah, where do you see kind of like how things have shifted, you know, I've seen groups completely changed, like, there's no more buying, selling, there's new, basically, they try to change the name of all the group names. Like that's gonna do it. Like Facebook algorithms are so smart, you know, like, like Blake folded with one or 15:50 Yeah. 15:52 totally missed it, Adam. 15:55 Like, like, Where have you seen people start gravitating towards? 15:58 Oh, I mean, I've been on a lot of those groups, just because I love it reminds me of like collecting and trading baseball cards back in the day. And sometimes you can't always get that bottle that he wants, but you have like, four other bottles that people want. So, you know, I would just kind of use it to trade and stuff. But so I mean, I've seen people flocking to the movie platform. But I do notice that like, it's like probably cut in half. I mean that people might put something up there and there's no comments whatsoever. Whereas on Facebook, you would get instant comments immediately. And it would probably be only up there if it was a good bottle for like five or 10 minutes. 16:37 Even 10 minutes is probably a stretch. I get him a bottle. Yeah, I mean, I'm on the me, we thing now too. And I had to it was just like everything else. I literally had to turn off notifications after like, an hour because like every single new post and I was like, Well, I'm never going to check this now because I go I go to Facebook for my newsfeed, right, I'll go to the Facebook group, I'll go whatever, I'll kind of see what's knew. And that was always one thing that Okay, cool. I'll just see what kind of bottles for sale, but now I gotta go to a whole different thing to do it. So it's, it's going to be tough. You know, I think the I think Sarah kind of you're right there that trying to bring a new crowd over to another platform is, it's always gonna be an uphill battle. And so it's gonna be interesting to kind of see what's going to happen. And at this point, I think people started renaming the groups of things that don't have the word 17:28 bourbon, or liquid or trading or group. 17:34 I think it's, it's interesting to see people's creativity and how to try and get around it. definitely been a week or two. So we'll see if that keeps up. But I do give folks credit, you know, a few different groups that really focus on you know, posting different items. First bourbon, I won't mention what ones, I give them credit for their, for their creativity, that's for sure. 17:55 I think I saw one earlier that said, like, I've got to brown bears for saying that. 18:02 1212 cousins name Weller, 18:06 60 fishes, it'll be go to any of us. It's just like, at some point, you're like, Okay, let's give up on this a little bit. But I mean, there's, I mean, the other thing is, there's there's other platforms, there's me, we, if you really want to do it, there's bottle spot. There's, there's other places that that, you know, you can find stuff, even bottle blue book, you know, we know that people behind their like, nobody will buy your bottles from you. So there's, there's always going to be a market, it's just not going to be as centralized as it once was. Oh, 18:38 yeah. And that's what I was talking to somebody about it, and just, you know, I put this in the chat too, but just the accountability you had, because it was connected to people's Facebook. You know, there weren't a lot of fake accounts. So if something went wrong, you could probably track the guy down and you know, kind of the bourbon mob would be able to take care of a lot of issues that popped up. And you don't have that on the site. Like me, we are bottle spot, which are a little more anonymous. And, you know, you lose a little bit of the trust factor when it goes off of Facebook, which is the disappointing part. Because I mean, you think of how many times how many bottles you see that went or were sold or traded on a daily basis. And how many actual horror stories you heard from people who got scammed or something. It was very small, small percentage. And that's what I think it just opens it up for more of that when you don't have the Facebook accountability. 19:35 Yep. And there was, there was one comment in here. I believe, I can't scroll up and find it now. But there was somebody that said that they didn't really know too much about bourbon until they were introduced into the secondary groups. And that kind of what introduces you to all these other bottles that are out there in the market. That was kind of my first introduction to a lot of this too, is I remember the first time that I was joining this group that I'm not gonna say any names, but when I was into it, I remember seeing like the first bottle of like, will it family state? And I'm like, Oh my god, what is this? Like? How can I get my hands on it? I mean, I went around forever going to try to find it. And I didn't even know the entire time I just had to drive 45 minutes down the road to Barcelona go pick it up. Like it was there was always in the gift shop. So you know, there's there's definitely like there was an educational factor of what this brought to a bourbon consumer. But I think On the flip side, there's also this kind of piece where it says people become a little bit immune to other everyday bottles, because all these see are unicorns and that's all I think are really good. So there is there is a there is a downside to that as well. So, as we kind of like shift focus here, you know, one of the big things that also happened last week was in GPI anybody that is following bourbon is probably listening. This podcast is knowing that it is a huge contract distiller that's out there, and their stock just plummet. This past week, it went from a pretty, pretty good sizable investment, if you're into it about five or six years ago to something where you're like, Okay, probably should think about selling at some point. But whatever it goes, I mean, we're also kind of like in a downturn right now. It maybe if anything, now's a good time to buy. But what happened was is Baron Baron calm, wrote an article and talked about the sales of age whiskey actually fell in the past quarter, at in GPI. And it actually sent the stock down about 26%. Back on Wednesday, July 31. And historically, in GPI has been a big game spirits outfit, like the ALGEO and they decided a long time ago to bet their popularity on building up some aged inventory. In MTP at some points, they were actually getting the the price that they wanted for it nearly three times of their actual cost. But the volumes just weren't there as I'd hoped. And the way this article kind of summed it up was that some customers were having trouble raising the funds to make these large purchases, while others were waiting to see NGP would drop its price. Now, Blake, I'm going to hand this over to you because I know me and you we've seen the MGB priceless before. Do you think this as this is kind of valid, that they really were kind of trying to make it really out of out of the world here that nobody's gonna buy it, if you have the, if you if you don't have the wherewithal to spend that kind of cash? Well, I mean, 22:29 I have no doubt that it's slowed down based on the price list. I mean, looking back, so we bought, it was it was 12 barrels of just under 10 years. So it's nine years. And it was I want to say it was around $3,000 a barrel. Right now the priceless I'm seeing $3,000 a barrel probably gets you like a two year old product. From MVP, maybe, maybe four year old five year old if, if you find the right broker, that kind of stuff. So I have no doubt that people were slowing down on on their buying. And, you know, because you look at the amount of cash that it would take to do because you know, MTP only sells in really big lots, you know, you can't buy five or 10 barrels from MVP, it's got to be, you know, probably a half million dollar buy to buy from them. And so, you know, I just think the appetite for MVP selling probably got a little bit ahead of them and with what people were willing to spend, because then people are doing the math, it's like, all right, how many hundred dollar bottles Can we put on the shelf, because, you know, if we're having to buy at this price, that means our cost is x and we got a retail at at YN. So I imagine there was a slow down. And, you know, who knows? Maybe it is people trying to negotiate or? Yeah, I mean, it is interesting to see that play out on unlike a big scale of a publicly traded company, and, you know, their stock market taking that big of a hit, and one day just from that, but I'm not too shocked at all that there was a little bit of a slow down in there. But overall, I don't think that'll slow down the market, you know, all they have to do is reduce their costs or reduce their price, probably 10 to 15%. And it'll probably pick right back up. And there will still make way more money than they were 510 years ago. So I don't think it's anything but a small bump in the road at this point. 24:36 It Sarah, I'll ask you a question real quick. Because David Jennings of a rare bird one on one just said that in GPS now competing with some good new distillate like will it new riff? Like you kind of agree with that, that the days of you know, thinking that you can just get seven year MVP at a lower price point is is kind of done? 24:56 Yeah, I mean, I mean, we've got like Bardstown bourbon company coming on, I mean, I don't know, that's more for one level up from a consumer or you know, just one dude trying to start a business. But I think more and more competition is coming on the scene. Now, obviously, they're not they're distillate and it isn't as old as MGPS. But if people are willing to wait for the price to come down a little bit, I think I think they should think about that. And like it said, the article said, I think maybe it's talking about it, you know, it's kind of driven people away. So maybe we should just, you know, I thought that was funny. 25:38 shouldn't put all of our secrets out there. 25:41 Thinks what's what's interesting is, if you look at right MGPI stock price, I mean, this really resets, it basically resets all the gains that they made to us. 19, right, because there was a huge, they were building up pretty good in 2018. And then there's a big dip towards the second half of 2018 going into 19, that there's a huge run, and just looks like the markets running figure out what to do with them. Right. I think that a pretty consistent gain up through mid 18. But from here on out, I'm just like in the stock chart, it's it's kind of all over the place, up and down, up and down. Um, so I think the markets trying to figure out what to do with them. I think Sarah's right, there's a lot of new players coming online, right? I don't think they're going to be going anywhere, I think the markets probably trying to see what happens with overseas markets, because that really is the next big area to really put a lot of the source bourbon into. So it's just, it's just buying time and filling it out. But I don't think there's any crisis for them to really worry about per se, if anything, it's probably a good time to buy. 26:36 Thank you. I remember looking at the price list and stuff like that maybe Blake just he's got bigger pockets. And they gave him a better list or something like that. But I remember when I was looking at it, even the stuff that you could get your hands on, like their high right Nashville and stuff like that. It was they only had like, two to three year old age stock like that was really it. Nobody, there was nothing that said, Hey, here's our seven to 10 years stuff like I never saw it. Now, when you want to get into higher ages, they definitely had like corn whiskey, and they had some other stuff, but not just some other regular bourbon mash bill. Blake, did you ever see some of those things of higher ages of just the bourbon stock that they had? That not within the last three years? I haven't. 27:22 And that's what I don't know where it all went? Because obviously they had some 27:29 somebody had some of it. 27:31 But yeah, I haven't seen anything over probably five years. in quite some time. And yeah, so I don't know if they just sold out of it. Or maybe it's the same thing. They're just holding out for that higher price. And you know, I'm it's getting cut a couple times before, you know makes us priceless down to me. So I'm not seeing those prices. But no, it seemed like that all evaporated about two to three years ago and most of the aged in MTP bourbon was gone. So yeah, it is interesting to to kind of see how that plays out. And somebody made another good point in the chat is, you know who they're the distilleries and brands that are buying this. A lot of them were doing it while their own distillery gets ready. You know, somebody like a Traverse City. Let's say new riff there. You know, there's countless others their stuffs ready now? Yes. Smooth Ambler like, so they're no longer relying on it. Now. That's not to say that there's 10 more in line right behind those guys. But you know, eventually you would think it and then you get like a Bardstown bourbon company that's coming on. And they're pumping out a ton of barrels right now castle and keys doing a lot of contract distilling. So so there's a lot of other players in the game. But ultimately, just, you know, how strong is the demand side to pull all that through. 29:06 So but even with all those new players, it's still going to take time for it to come to, you know, to come of age. So it'll be interesting if MGPI actually has more reserved that they're just not showing their hand on and I mean, right now everyone's going right, if you want high age 14, you're going after decal, right? You're going after Tennessee whiskey. And again, there's there's not an unlimited supply of that either. there's a there's a finite amount that everyone can go after so and that dries up either, you know, MGPI has stocks to go for. Or at that point, you're looking at trying to get Kentucky Kentucky distillery to give you some niche stock, but if not, the markets going to be if you have any barrels sitting around, it's gonna be right for the picking. Yeah, 29:44 sir. I'll make you kind of looking at the magic eight ball here because I start thinking about this and I see I see kind of what everything that goes around comes around sort of thing. And so when you look at what happened to the market, where mean if it just not even like go three four years ago, like nobody gave a crap about MZPI everybody used to look at it go in GPI I don't want it and then whatever happened in the past year, six months, whatever it is, like complete one at every single bash it over it. And and now since we have all these new players coming on, yeah, you're going to have this kind of like bulk source market that is Kentucky. It's got that Kentucky name to it. So where do you kind of see like, if anybody's laying down today, and we fast forward five years from now six years from now is MTP is really gonna be able to compete with all these brands are laying down stuff that now says Kentucky on it. 30:40 Right I mean, that's a good question because it's all about marketing. If you think about it, I mean, sure, MTP had knows how to do it makes good juice. But if you want to market your you know, bourbon a Kentucky made product Kentucky bourbon, there's a lot behind that, you know, that MVP can't give you so I think I know it's gonna be interesting necessarily to watch. I think 31:07 that's one thing to think about, you know, think about all the controversy some brands have had because they mislabeled their product because it didn't still didn't Indiana, you know, like the Templeton's and others were kinda adds a little more ambiguity to some source products because of it just says distilled in Kentucky. Who knows where I came from. 31:31 That's interesting. 31:32 Absolutely. And Jordan, we gotta give you a shout out real quick if you just like we come into like a huge batch of Elmer TV because 31:39 it would have been Helmers 100th birthday today. 31:41 Oh, is that what it is? 31:42 Okay, what a turn 100 say so little tribute little shares to Elmer 31:47 Yeah, there we go. Shout out to that. I, I saw him I saw him drinking it. He's got like a case in his background. I was just kind of curious. What was 31:53 this Hello. 31:56 At that if I could get the phone phone call from your local and your 32:00 this is the round tables turning into the secondary market. This is now where it's no 32:06 natural auction. 32:09 Just Just hold up a sign in front of your camera like right now. 32:14 There's a trained auctioneer she's going to tell you 32:20 so so as we kind of like tail off on that last comment talking about like, Where could end up being a few years versus where can talk to me for years, all this other kind of stuff that's coming on the market. You know, there was also something that came out in whiskey advocate this past week that talks about Missouri, is now joining the ranks of Kentucky and Tennessee and actually putting in new legal rules, I guess you could say, to actually have its own silo whiskey, and in this case, bourbon. So according to House Bill 266, that was signed back on Thursday, July 11. Any whiskey labeled as Missouri bourbon must not only meet the federal standards for bourbon, but also must be mashed, fermented, distilled aged and by and the state agent oak barrels manufactured in the state. And beginning in January 1 of 2020. Made with corn exclusively grown in the state. So this law goes into effect on August 28. Now, Sarah, I'll kind of point this one over to you a little bit. Do you see this like as a foreshadowing the effect of we could see other states coming online? I know, we kind of saw this with the Empire right thing before and stuff like that, too. 33:29 I think I mean, right now, every state actually does make a bourbon. Now, Missouri is doing their stricter laws, like kind of like we do, and Tennessee does. I think it's only a good thing to be transparent. And especially they're trying to keep everything within the state. And that on that note helps the agriculture part it helps the they said in the article there was they grow a lot of oak trees so that, you know, their barrels are the best they say, we can decide, agree with that. But they want to make it anything more transparent. I think it's a good thing. 34:07 What about you, Jordan? Kind of get your thoughts on 34:09 this. Oh, this is interesting, right? I think that's a bold move for them to do, mainly because I'm sure I'm sure you can even play. She asked the same question. Countless times a week. Well, if people reach out and say I thought bourbon can only be from Kentucky, right? So I appreciate them trying to trying to, you know, move things forward a little bit. But at the same time, I can't imagine that's going to help anyone by labeling up Missouri, bourbon, because people are just gonna say, Wait a second. No, no, it's not bourbon lessons from Kentucky. Right. So it's great. They want to be state centric. Cool. You know, but no offense, I don't really think that's going to really help anyone. I mean, the good. You know, the good news is local distilleries don't need to choose to label it. Missouri bourbon. But on the flip side, I'm sure eventually there'll be a lot of state grants tied to making Missouri bourbon just making whiskey in the state. 35:00 I mean, you could you could also see this as a as a push for tourism, right? A Missouri trail or whatever it is, like they want to do something that gives a little bit of state pride into into whatever they're doing to 35:14 I think I mean, I think Yeah, exactly. So and I don't think that's a bad thing. Right. Pennsylvania, they recently just launched the the rye rebellion trail, right, the Whiskey Rebellion trail. I mean, so and that's great for Pennsylvania and Scripps in Baltimore a little bit too, but that has a lot of history behind it, like legit history of the whole Whiskey Rebellion, everything else. So it's a little it's a little hard to fathom what type of history they might attach that That being said, if a distillery can come up with some crazy story about the grandfather's recipe, and everything else, I'm sure a steak can come off the story about Wine Trail. 35:49 Yeah, so there was there was a pretty good quote here in the chat. So it came from Blake, first thing he said soon as he started talking about, he said, Oh, I Missouri resident here, I got some thoughts on this. I said, Okay, let's hear it. He goes, the rules do nothing to actually improve the product and the barrel. So I know maybe this is this is this is also just going back to the craft versus everybody else argument. Whereas everything that is coming from the big boys like they've have, they've had time, and they've had stock. And not only that is you've got economies of scale that make it super cheap. So this could be like I said, it might have to be a long play for Missouri to get there. But you know, this is funny when when I talked to Ryan all the time, and somebody says, Oh, you gotta go check out this distillery. It's so awesome. Like, they do this and this, and we're like, yeah, sure, I bet you they ferment some grain of wheat, some corn, and then they probably throw it in a mash tun. And they probably just still throw in a barrel yet, like the process hasn't changed in 20 years. Like we quit giving a shit A long time ago. And so it's it's kind of like, there's there, there's got to be something somewhere where a lot of these states can find that new. I just find find that that angle that is starting to make them. 37:08 Gotta differentiate yourself somehow 37:10 get on the map, somehow just get on the map. I don't know what it is. But maybe this is part of it. I don't know. I mean, Blake, you introduced me to Empire. I like you kind of see this as a move forward for a lot of people in different states. 37:23 Yeah, I mean, but you think how quickly can we burn out on it? You know, we got 50 states that we can everyone can have their own their own bourbon. 37:35 I'm waiting for the Hawaii one to come around. Because I'm going to the barrel pick. Okay. 37:39 I'm heading for that press trip if it comes up? 37:44 Yeah, I mean, it is interesting to see I think it is cool. The Missouri one, I think they've got a little bit with, you know, Cooper edge and everything like that the Empire I, they've done a really great job and making a product. There is some historical aspects best, especially with like, you know, Maryland style rise, Pennsylvania style rise. So it's cool that they designated it brings some more attention to it, and in a little more information, because while we do get a whole lot less of the question, it's still I mean, it popped up for me, like two weeks ago in a comment section of this post I had on seal box. And I was like, Well, you know, bourbon could only may be made in Bourbon County, Kentucky. Like, that's just not right. Like 38:34 that. We're past that. But a lot of 38:35 I mean, the average consumer, a lot of people still think that. Yeah, I go so far as the majority still think about it. I hope 38:43 not the majority, but you're probably right. 38:46 You know, so it is cool. It does kind of give a little more credibility to some of these distilleries. Like Jordan said, I wish there was something that improved the product or 38:57 Yeah, thanks, Jordan. Who said that or no, Clint and Blake, there's another there's another Blake in there. 39:04 Likes always have the most insightful comments. 39:08 But no, I mean, I wish there was something like like a straight days designation estate would do something like that, that says, okay, it's or bottled in bond, you know, something that that has a year state your age statement on it. That really does improve the product where it's cool to say, Yeah, all the the grains, the oak, and everything's from this state, but you know, could still be pretty bad, bad bourbon in those bottles. But it all in all, it's all about marketing. So it gets the name out there more gets more people drinking bourbon. I'm for it. 39:47 I mean, I just think they they took it almost a little few steps too far. I mean, it was literally mash fermented, distilled aged bottled right, Asian oak barrels that were manufactured the state greens grown there. 40:00 Are they gonna do you know, to make it Missouri? You know, I mean, 40:06 well, like I said, I think the part that we're probably ticket, it took it over the edge was like, had to be aged and oak barrels that were manufactured in Missouri, right. Like, there's, we all know that like, 40:16 straight bourbon doesn't Aqua sponsoring that bill? 40:20 Don't talk to trees. OC that Jordan might have something that might be independent state that could have been behind that, right? Because they've got a huge Missouri 40:27 presence. I mean, who really benefits from that, right? So it's going to be it's going to be the barrel manufacturers in Missouri, the people selling trees, Missouri, it's going to be the people growing the grains. It's really meant to benefit the local economy. 40:39 And this is where we get into our hypothesis of things. 40:44 What moves the political? 40:46 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but like I said, I think, you know, Jordan, you made a really good point there that, you know, it really could be ISC behind that, that really says, like, Oh, this should be a part of it. Because, you know, until I really see getting into this, I didn't really know how many Cooper's we even had really here in Kentucky. And so perhaps there are a few more Missouri that we are kind of not shining the light on. But it's definitely a very valid point that you raise. Yeah, when it comes to it. So as we start moving on here, you know, Blake said something in the last segment really talking about well, if they're going to do something like bring it make it be bottle and bond, but sort of age statement, you got to do something that really kind of Willie wants to make the consumer started gravitating towards it. And this is one thing that is sort of relatively recent that was just announced that it's something that we've been all accustomed to, in the past two years now of basically every label out there losing its age statement. And this is because of the popularity of bourbon and just not being able to keep up with stocks. Nobody could forecast this to ever be where it was, however, beam Suntory came out with a press release saying that knob Creek is going UB restoring its nine year age statement on its on its bourbon. So I'll kind of Jordan like, do you really think that all of a sudden they're like hey, we got stocks. Do you love bourbon? How about festivals? course you do. So join bourbon pursuit in Frankfort, Kentucky on August 24. For bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. You will get to taste from over 60 different bourbon spirits, wine and beer vendors plus 20 food vendors all happening with live music. 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The barrels come from Tennessee get filled with Dragon's milk beer twice, the mature bourbon is finished and those very same barrels. rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rackhouse boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members and over 40 states. Go to rock house whiskey club com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye. Use code pursue for $25 off your first box. 44:03 Jordan like Do you really think that all of a sudden they're like, Hey, we got stocks? It's only been like a year like was this like a like a like a safe face sort of thing was this like, 44:14 is interesting. So we just did a one of our newsletters contained a topic piece on this a few weeks back. So you know you're seeing age statements returned in a number of ways, right? So I think the knob Creek might be a little rare in the fact that it may actually return and may kind of stay the same price for the most part. But what you're seeing as we're noticing is age statements coming back with the price increase or age statements coming back on a limited basis. I'll use limited loose quotes right. So the thing about a heaven Hill took off the six year right it's coming back as a seven year as a higher price point. Right Bazell Hayden last very standard A while back all of a sudden is coming out as a 10 year limited release will see more often. right we're seeing this 1780 more and more. And we're seeing those age statements come back and I'm still waiting for the big one. I know this is just speculation on my part. But I'm still waiting to see Elijah Craig just the standard version come back in more premium looking Bothwell bottles in place that are more premium price point, right, because I can't imagine that heaven hills not thinking about that. Right. But I think we're seeing that it's not the fact that age sucks, you know, appeared out of nowhere. It's a business right and I'm the majority of the bourbon distilleries calculated and play this out really well. Because now people do associate age statements and bottles as being higher, higher quality, more premium, and customers are willing to pay for it. So when those demons do come back, they're excited for right and love it or hate it. It's the reality at least people who are bemoaning the loss of age statements have that option, but it's going to cost a little bit more. I mean, they could have just as easily said hey, we're going to come out with a second 45:47 product line that is nine years at an extra like $15 a bottle and just kept doing there. You know NAS seven right here whatever stuff and just kind of had two variations of knob Creek there. So I guess go ahead Jordan. 46:03 I was gonna say you kind of saw that with a heaven hill with the white label bottled in bond right? I mean, you you had my guess it wasn't bottle and bond the one other one but you had the white label and then you had the aged white label and whatever on talk about a lot. So it's kind of like Well, what's the point of doing the non aged you know, the non HD version? So I think people just if there's two options, people are always going to go for the HTML right? It's it's just economics on that one. 46:26 Yes, sir. I kinda want to get your your kind of take on this. I mean, because we look at the market look at what it is I mean, we had Bernie lovers on the show when right 12 lost it and you know, everybody went ape shit and then you kind of talks about like, you know, this is you know, the bourbon is a bird business not bourbon charity business. And you talked about like, well, would you rather just take it off the shelf completely? Or, you know, just bring it back to whatever it is however there you know, I don't know what beam did to try to sit there and try to find these stocks that did this. But they did it without a price increase. So So kind of talk about your you know, kind of your feelings on this one. 47:08 You know, I think people are tiptoeing around idea of the bourbon bubble and if it's gonna burst or what's going to happen so i think i mean it it's probably a way for them to be you know, more transparent it seemed it seems to be my theme but I mean, it's a it's kind of like a an outreach to their fans to saying hey, you know, maybe we were short on this year but now we were back you know, or it could just be like don't leave us you know, there's so much more on the market we you know, we value you here's your age statement back and I don't know that might be kind of naive thinking but I'm glad they didn't raise the price because I like that 47:53 Yeah, well that's what I mean I think one of the things in the press release was talking about how Fred know said when some he wants to order you know, you're at a bar you want to order a knob Creek you expect it to be nine years now I don't know if that's really what is me it's just that it could just be a blanket statement that was given in sent out of course but that was one part of it. Now one thing that was kind of coming up in the chat was people were saying that knob Creek packs knob Creek pics are the best value in bourbon. Blake I kind of want to get your your ID on that because you know most of them are 10 to 15 years old like is is it really the best value in bourbon you're seeing right now. 48:34 Um, so knob Creek pics for me are a little hit and miss at times I've had some that man I'd almost put them up there with like the Booker's 25th release or something like that and then I've had others it's like wow, this is just like knob Creek off the shelf. So as far as price improve go, I can't think of anyone else that would be better. You're talking about essentially barrel proof 14 years old and 45 $50 a bottle whatever they are, I can't think of one that would be better in my mind. But yeah, I mean all in all, I think the more aged options we have out there the better so that's it's nice to see they brought the the age statement back. I'm actually not going to talk about bakers because I just don't want anyone messing with bakers we're just going to stop dabbling with the design and making payroll and leave it I want the nice Devon Black Wax top sitting on the shelf every time I go in so but no I mean to the original question aside from four roses three to four years ago not Craig's probably barrel pics that is not Greeks probably the best value there is right now. Four barrel pics that 50:02 you know it's funny we look at we look at barrel pics we always talk about barrel pics as being one of the things that you know you don't want to go chase after everything barrel pics is where you want to be. However it seems like this is always one of the ones that are so over saturated in the market and Jordan Did you kind of see that as one of those things that were like there's just so many of them out there like it's hard to just barrel fix knob Creek fix you know it's not one of those things that people go crazy for it's not a seven I say 50:32 that Yeah, I agree and I say that with us having a knob Creek barrel pick out there right now for folks for single girl club right 34 through a partner and it's true people I think people have a lot more readily available knob Creek pics at their fingertips than they then they realized in them they want because most stores will have a knob Creek single barrel out there, but they're pretty easy to get. They may not always be like a 1415 year old but they're pretty they're pretty well established is an easy pick for stores to do. Right and for the most part, it's one of the ones that you just get used to knowing that Yeah, for the most part a few times here I'll be able to go to knob Creek where I'll pick right so the excitement factor I think isn't there as it might be for some of the other barrel pics that people do. I'm sure you guys have seen the same thing with your barrel club pics to that you've done them and Blake the same thing Sarah I'm sure if you have a favorite liquor store that you go into often a little knob Creek barrel pics, they're just one of those things that's not sure if it's oversaturation or so much they're just readily available. Even if it's just one or two, you know, a year or two or three year it's more available than you might see some of the other brands out there that stores are doing similar things for 51:45 it, I'll kind of toss it out to the group too. Because 51:50 I don't think I've ever had a knob Creek single barrel pic that is like blown me away. But I've also like when we've done that I pre barrel pics like you go there or you get the sample shipped to you and your tastes of them. There's not a huge very difference between them like they just seem like they seem very they're all the same as me. I mean, I haven't really found like some that are just like crazy off profile like you have some that are like with Buffalo Trace that are just like you never would expect to this be Buffalo Trace versus some that are very sweet. And you can say that about a lot of different brands out there even new riff being one where you get a bunch of different flavors out of these barrels and stuff like that. I'll kind of toss it out to you all like have you seen like a lot of variants in your in your knob Creek single barrel pics. 52:37 So to me, the beam, kind of that funky beam, pod wet cardboard note always shines through. 52:48 Nothing that's a cell point like that, that Yeah, 52:50 no. Bad. That's why I lead with peanuts. 52:57 But I have had a few that I'm like, wow, this is really good. So you know, I wouldn't say they're all the same. 53:07 But you know you think about other Well, I guess pretty much everyone is using the same Nashville same everything. So beam definitely has a lot more to choose from. So if they're going for a profile, they've got plenty of barrels to pick from to find to put into the single barrel program that are all pretty similar. So but you know, I'll defend them a little bit there and say I've had some that are definitely better than others and some I thought were standouts, but I think if you put really anything beam in a lineup and you knows down the line, you're going to pick that pick that out immediately. So I think that plays a role as well. 53:49 Does anybody else get a little like turned off? Sometimes when they only roll out three barrels for you to 53:55 try travesty? It's a 53:57 Yeah. You're like, come on, I'm better at this like that. That's where you bring your own drill and just start walking. 54:06 Because they love that. Yeah, you if you want to get arrested and never invited back again, that's that's the recipe. 54:16 Alright, so let's go ahead, we'll kind of shift it to maybe one of the last topics for tonight as we start winding this down. But it's, it really plays into really well of that last topic, because, you know, Jim Beam is has done a very, very good job at looking at the market looking at its consumers, and saying, like, hey, let's restore this age statement, we're not gonna raise the price, we're not gonna do anything like that. You know, and there's other brands out there that are handling this in the same exact way. So let's talk about the impact of what brand perception really is. So you've got Buffalo Trace, you know, they stated that they will never raise their prices. You've got heaven Hill who did the exact opposite and raise their prices? I'm kind of curious on on. In Sir, I'll kind of let you kind of go first here like, what do you think is the the brand perception people will have when you have, like, that was an example like that, where somebody is raising prices? somebody saying I'm going to keep them steady? I feel like we're running get into like political debates, like, yeah, like, I'm gonna raise taxes like no, you know, it's, it's kind of like that. So kind of kind of talk about, like, how do you see brands in a certain light when they when they do this sort of thing? 55:35 I'm, I think, at the end of the day, people like what they like, and they're loyal. 55:41 I think I mean, the heaven Hill thing, you know, taking it off the market, and then raising it a year. And putting, you know, raising the price on it. That was a little like, you know, like, come on, you know, I'm brand loyal to you. But at the end of the day, like you guys were saying it's a it's a business. And if people are willing to pay it, then then why not? But I think I still think at the end of day you have your favorite and that's what you're going to go to, if you can find it. 56:11 And I have to kind of correct myself a little bit because makki sick in the chat said, well, BT just raised the prices on OWA. And I was like, Okay, okay, they did do that. Some other kind of lower end brands. Yes. They're I shouldn't say lower end but they're some are more everyday consumer brands. Yes. However, sir, more their premium items. Pretty much thing level field, there there be tax in the package in the world, they're really kind of stay in there for at least as least as far as we know. We'll see when the press release comes out in this fall. 56:40 Yeah, I'd be shocked if they raise those prices more than it'll be up. $10 it'll be what are we at now? They're like, 56:46 9999 Yeah, 56:48 yeah, it'll be up. $10. And, you know, I, it is a It's funny how short our memory is on all this stuff. Because, you know, I feel like we pick on heaven Hill a little bit because they've seemed to have done the most with, you know, Elijah Craig 18. Going away, coming back at $110. More, you know, no, we're not dropping the age statement of Elijah Craig. Oh, there goes the age statement. So we're going to pick on somebody else. So like, Buffalo Trace, they raise OWA prices, higher than well, or 12. There's all this you know, if you look at what the what's going on behind the scenes with a lot of the what these stores have to do to get, you know, Sazerac and Buffalo Trace products in that's to me is almost even worse than some of the other people but everyone has a short memory. Am I going to not buy a bottle of George t stag tomorrow? Because my retailer went in debt buying, you know, weekly vodka so he could get that one bottle? No, I'm gonna buy that bottle. So, you know, it's the whole consumer. Not to say that a lot of these distillers are bulletproof. But there's so many new people coming in, who just don't care or will never know, like, the details of stuff that goes on. I think, you know, the brands and distillers feel that a little bit and they just keep moving forward, they increase profits, they increase expansion, whatever it is. I just want to drink good bourbon. And you know, I can't think of one distillery that's done anything that's like a you know, I will never drink them again because of it. I mean, shoot, I tried Templeton a few months back after swore them off because of all their flavoring and no, we don't flavor and all this stuff. And I was like, as not as bad as I, you know, I was thinking it was terrible, but it's not that bad. So um, yeah, I mean, I think there's just a lot of room for for distilleries to move right now, especially with so many new people coming in. 58:57 I think it's a it's on the flip side, it's a fine line, right. So I appreciate what Buffalo Trace is doing by artificially keeping prices low on some of their products, because you have to remember the world we plan, right? We drink a lot of their spirits. But we'll go back to bourbon most often. But the average consumer you're competing not just for for what they buy in the shelves in the bourbon section. But if you piss them off enough, and they start going to discover other spirits, right? Take a bourbon iOS, and he's really into rum. Or he's really into Armagnac, or he's really into mezcal or anything else. Right? They may not return to the bourbon section anymore. And yeah, you may have actually pissed off that person enough that once they found another spirit at a valuable price, they might just be done with bourbon. So it's that fine line that you have to play of capturing the consumers are entering into the to the bourbon world and are willing to spend money, but also those longtime drinkers who are willing and able to switch spirit categories and don't have the discretionary income to just buy everything everywhere. 1:00:01 I'll buy everything everywhere. 1:00:02 Wow. I mean, we might buy everything everywhere. But you know what I mean? 1:00:06 Is if travel takes the right place, you see the right bottle? Yeah, well, of course. Oh, for sure. 1:00:12 Yeah, go ahead, like whole new market. Because there there was the guys who were just completely rien loyal, where they needed bourbon, they walked in and grabbed a bottle of Maker's Mark, and there was nothing else. And now I think it's a little more people are exploring. So I think brand loyalty that's being built and, you know, kind of the goodwill will mean a lot in the coming years. 1:00:37 I think everybody brings a very valid point to this, because when you look at how brands are handling this, they're all doing it different ways. And I think the one thing that people are the brands have to understand is that this is a long game. If you're if you're trying to go out for the short game, you're only going to succeed in the short game. And if you are trying to make a lasting impression that's going to last for decades, you know, making sure that you know, trying to raise prices trying to do this. Who knows it could backfire. You know, we've talked about on the roundtable before, and I think Blake brought it up that we could just be now experiencing the very beginning of what could be a super super super premium market where there will be a need to have $1,000 bottles of bourbon, like regularly on the shelves. As as we try to compete with scotch and stuff like that. So seeing is how it I don't know. And I look at it from two different angles now that I'm kind of saying and I'm kind of flip flopping on myself. It's kind of like yeah, maybe they should be raising prices. And then the other side of me saying like those bastards, why they're raising prices. But I mean, that's that's that's sort of like the, you know, we're in a very transformative time, I think for bourbon, where we see this massive growth, this massive opportunity. And it's either like, what kind of game you're going to play and in where can you either increase profits a little bit that makes makes you have a little more longevity? versus Where are you just basically taking advantage of the market and saying, I've got a 12 year old NGP bottle, and I'm selling it for $250 a bottle. Yeah. Right. Like that's, that's short term thinking. And so we'll kind of see exactly what how that sort of plays out in the the upcoming upcoming pieces here. But, you know, I think that's going to kind of round out a lot of the questions that we had for the night really looking at exactly the market where it is. I mean, we covered we covered a lot tonight. 1:02:36 knockout topics from there's only four people here. 1:02:41 Say I was like we were bam, bam, bam, bam 1:02:45 GP stock prices, Missouri bourbon knob Creek. I mean, 1:02:51 so it was it was awesome to have everybody on here and even huge thanks to everybody that joined in the chat. I know some people were sitting there saying that, you know, you know, Blake it talks about like, yeah, buy a bunch of boxes, so I can buy that and everybody's like, Hey, 1:03:06 I love I love Wheatley vodka. Like anybody's like this is a safe space. Fred's not here. We could talk about vodka. 1:03:15 We can mention it now that 1:03:17 don't save just remember that. 1:03:21 Absolutely. So as we sort of start closing this out, want to give everybody a chance to say, you know, kind of where they're where they're from, where they blog, everything like that. So Jordan, I'll let you go first. 1:03:31 Yeah, this

July 14, 2019 "Omnum Sanctum: Everything is Holy" Series: Ordinary Genesis 28:11-13 Genesis 15 Genesis 18 The Rev. Cole Altizer 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[a] stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 15 After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield,[a] your very great reward.[b]” 2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.” 4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.” 6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. 7 He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.” 8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?” 9 So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.” 10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. 12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” 17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,[a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs[b] of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. 9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said. 10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” 13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.” Abraham Pleads for Sodom 16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?” “If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.” 29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?” He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?” He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?” He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?” He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.” 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Welcome to our third episode discussing the theme of Wisdom in the bible. In this episode, Tim and Jon zoom in on the character Solomon. Was Solomon really the wisest person who ever lived? In part 1 (0-8:30), Tim and Jon quickly recap the conversation so far. Tim explains how the English word “help” is inadequate when used to describe Eve’s or woman’s role in relationship to Adam. Instead of an unnecessary addition, it’s more of an essential completion, even a “saving” role that the woman fills. Tim also explains that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil isn’t the perfect translation in the Hebrew. More accurately, it’s “the knowledge of the tree of good and bad.” In part 2 (8:30-19:20), Tim begins to trace the human story after Adam and Eve, through Abraham and arriving at Solomon. Tim says that God promises to restore the blessing of Eden to all humanity through the family of Abraham. Here is God’s promise to Abraham: Genesis 12:1-3 “And I will make of you a great nation,
and I will bless you,
and make your name great,
so that you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and him who curses you I will curse;
and in you will be blessed all the families of the earth.” Genesis 12:7 “The Lord appeared to Abram and said, ‘To your seed I will give this land.’ So he built an altar there to the Lord who had appeared to him.” 
In Genesis 16, God promises Abraham and Sarah seed and land to be a blessing to the nations. But when they’re unable to have a child, they turn to their own wisdom and power. This is a clear design pattern from the fall narrative of Genesis 3. See below the breakdown of this passage and it’s reflection of the the Eden story. Genesis 16:1-2 tells us, “Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar.” So Sarai says to Abram, “Go now into my female servant, perhaps I will be built up from her.” (This language of being “built” from Hagar suspiciously reminds us of Genesis 2:22, “and Yahweh God built the side which he took from the human into a woman, and he brought her to the man.”) 
Genesis 16:2b “…and Abram listened to the voice of Sarai.” (In Genesis 3:17, God says to Adam, “Because you listened to the voice of your wife…”) 
Genesis 16:3-4 “Sarai, the wife of Abram, took Hagar the Egyptian her female slave… and she gave her to Abram her husband as a wife (Gen. 3:6, “and she gave also to her husband with her”). And he went into her and she became pregnant and she saw that (ותרא כי) she was pregnant, and her mistress became less in her eyes” (Gen. 3:6, “When the woman saw that [ותרא] the tree was good…”). 
Genesis 16:6 “And Abram said to Sarai, ‘Look, your female slave is in your hand. Do to her what is good in your eyes (טוב בעיניך).’ (Gen. 3:6, “When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes…”). 
Genesis 16:6b-7 “So Sarah oppressed her, and Hagar fled from before her. And the angel of Yahweh found her by a spring of waters in the wilderness.” (Gen. 3:24, “So [God] drove the man out….”) In Genesis 22, when God provides a son from Sarah, God demands his life. God does not take lightly to the oppression of Egyptian slaves (the entire Exodus slavery is an inverted consequence for this sin). Also because of this sin, Ishmael is cast out from Abraham’s family, which grieves God, so he demands that Abraham give Isaac back to him. God is looking for people who will trust Yahweh’s word and command over their own wisdom, that will reverse the folly and fear of Adam and Eve. The first character to demonstrate this Abraham in Genesis 22:4-6: “And Abraham lifted his eyes (עיניו) and he saw (וירא)… and he took (ויקח) in his hand the fire and the knife/eater(מאכלת), and the two of them (שניהם) walked on together (יחדו).” This releases the blessing of Eden through Abraham’s fear of Yahweh out into the nations. 
Genesis 22:15-18
"Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have listened My voice.” The point is this: When humans don’t live by their own wisdom regarding good and bad, but instead trust God’s wisdom and obey his commands (the fear of the Lord), it leads to blessing and life. This is true wisdom: to live in the fear of the Lord. In part 3 (19:20-36:45), Tim begins to outline the story of Solomon. Tim says Solomon is presented as a new Adam. He has an opportunity to rule the world, and he actually asks God to give him wisdom to rule. Solomon is a complex character, depicted as both a new, ideal Adam—but also as a failed, foolish Adam. In one narrative thread, he is depicted as a new Adam/Abraham, meeting God in a new high-place, and living by God’s wisdom/Torah. 1 Kings 3:3-15 “Now Solomon loved the Lord, walking in the statutes of his father David... The king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there, for that was the great high place; Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar. In Gibeon the Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream at night; and God said, ‘Ask what you wish me to give you.’ “Then Solomon said, ‘You have shown great covenant love to Your servant David my father...You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. Now, O Lord my God, You have made Your servant king in place of my father David, yet I am but a little child; I do not know to go out or come in.
 “‘Your servant is in the midst of Your people which You have chosen, a great people who are too many to be numbered or counted. So give Your servant a heart that listens in order to govern Your people, in order to discern between good (Heb. tov) and bad (Heb. ra’). For who is able to govern this great people of Yours?’” 
“It was good (tov) in the eyes of the Lord that Solomon had asked this thing. God said to him, ‘Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked for yourself long life, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have you asked for the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself discernment to hear justice, behold, I have done according to your words. Behold, I have given you a heart of wisdom and discernment, so that there has been no one like you before you, nor shall one like you arise after you. I have also given you what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that there will not be any among the kings like you all your days. If you walk in My ways, keeping My statutes and commandments, as your father David walked, then I will prolong your days.’ Then Solomon awoke, and behold, it was a dream.” Tim shows how Solomon was blessed after he began to walk in the fear of the lord. 1 Kings 4:20-21, 25, 29-34
“Judah and Israel were as numerous as the sand that is on the seashore in abundance; they were eating and drinking and rejoicing. Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life….” 
“So Judah and Israel lived in safety, every man under his vine and his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.” 
“Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind, like the sand that is on the seashore. Solomon’s wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the sons of the east and all the wisdom of Egypt. For he was wiser than all men, than Ethan the Ezrahite, Heman, Calcol and Darda, the sons of Mahol; and his fame was known in all the surrounding nations. He also spoke 3,000 proverbs, and his songs were 1,005. He spoke of trees, from the cedar that is in Lebanon even to the hyssop that grows on the wall; he spoke also of beasts and birds and creepers and fish (do you hear Genesis 1 in there?). Men came from all peoples to hear the wisdom of Solomon, from all the kings of the earth who had heard of his wisdom." Solomon is portrayed as a new Adam, wisely ruling a garden with trees for everyone, fruitful and multiplying, boundaries expanded to Eden-like proportions. He knows the plants, beasts, birds, and creepers. He is more wise than “all the sons of the East” (link to the book of Job). He spoke thousands of proverbs (link to the book of Proverbs). He wrote over a thousand songs (link to Song of Songs).
 Tim’s point is that Solomon is beginning to to fulfill the original call of mankind to rule wisely. However, Solomon’s story has another side as well. In part 4 (36:45-52:50), Tim outlines the foolish side of Solomon’s life. Solomon enslaved people to help him build Jerusalem up. He imported and exported arms, chariots and horses to other countries. He had hundreds of wives and concubines. Solomon demonstrates wisdom but isn’t fully committed to following the laws of Yahweh. 1 Kings 5:13-17
“Now King Solomon levied forced laborers from all Israel; and the forced laborers numbered 30,000 men. He sent them to Lebanon, 10,000 a month in relays; they were in Lebanon a month and two months at home. And Adoniram was over the forced laborers. Now Solomon had 70,000 transporters, and 80,000 hewers of stone in the mountains, besides Solomon’s 3,300 chief deputies who were over the project and who ruled over the people who were doing the work. Then the king commanded, and they quarried great stones, costly stones, to lay the foundation of the house with cut stones.” 1 Kings 9:17, 19
“So Solomon rebuilt Gezer and the lower Beth-horon... and all the storage cities which Solomon had, even the cities for his chariots and the cities for his horsemen….” Solomon, for all his wisdom, implemented policies which directly violated the laws of the king as outlined in the Torah. Deuteronomy 17:15-20
“you shall surely set a king over you whom Yahweh your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman. Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since Yahweh has said to you, ‘You shall never again return that way.’ He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself. 
“Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this Torah on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear Yahweh his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes, that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel. Tim has found scholar Daniel Hays to be helpful here: “We as readers are given a tour of a fantastic, spectacular and opulent mansion, the house of Solomon. Everywhere we look we see wealth and abundance. However, without changing the inflection of his voice the tour guide also points out places where the façade has cracked, revealing a very different structure. Continuing with the standard speech which glorifies the building, the guide nonetheless makes frequent side comments (forced labor, store cities, horses from Egypt, foreign marriages) that make clear that his glowing praise for the structure is not really his honest opinion of the facility, and he wants us also to see the truth. Finally, at the end of the tour in chapters 11, he can restrain himself no more, and he tells us plainly that the building is basically a fraud, covered with a thin veneer of glitz and hoopla, and soon will collapse under its own weight. This is the manner in which the narrator of 1 Kings leads us on a tour of the House of Solomon.” (Daniel Hays, “Narrative Subtlety in 1 Kings 1-11: Does the narrative praise or bury Solomon?”) Tim points out that Solomon violates every rule that Israel’s king was supposed to follow. A Bible reader should ask why the narrator is giving us a dual portrait of Solomon? In the New Testament, Jesus says, “something greater than Solomon is here.” (Matthew 12:42; Luke 11:31). Jesus positioned himself as the true example of the ideal human who learns wisdom correctly by learning from Yahweh God. In part 5 (52:50-end), the guys discuss the seeming asymmetry of male and female portrayals in the Bible. Why is it that a woman is portrayed as a “wise and foolish woman” in Proverbs? Why are women often portrayed with seductive and illicit behavior? Tim points out that throughout history, men have been the ones translating the Bible, so they have default and built-in blind spots to understanding and accurately portraying a better view of man and woman’s portrayal in the original Hebrew context. 
Tim notes that women have been making great strides in contributing to and furthering academic and scholastic work on biblical texts and that their voices need to be heard. Thank you to all our supporters! Show Resources:  • www.thebibleproject.com • J. Daniel Hays, “Narrative Subtlety in 1 Kings 1-11: Does the narrative praise or bury Solomon?” Show Music: • Roads by LiQwyd • Yesterday on Repeat by Vexento • Moon by LeMMino • self reflection by less.people • Defender Instrumental by Tents Some music for this episode brought to you by the generosity of Chill Hop Music. Show Produced by:  Dan Gummel, Jon Collins Powered and distributed by Simplecast

GUEST BIO: Sarah is a Cloud Solution Architect for Microsoft where she helps organizations with their Data Centre Transformations.  In recent years Sarah has started to focus and specialize in all things Cloud, especially Microsoft Azure.   Sarah is also a STEM Ambassador and likes to share her story in the hope that it will inspire the next generation to start a STEM career.   EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Sarah Lean, who has spent 15 years working as an IT professional. She is a Cloud Solution Architect for Microsoft, specifically working on Data Center Transformations. Sarah specializes in Microsoft, VMware, Veeam and Azure, but she has many other skills and is always adding more. She is a STEM Ambassador and founded the Glasgow Azure user group. KEY TAKEAWAYS: (1.08) – So Sarah, can I ask you to expand on that brief intro and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Sarah starts by sharing the fact that she has been working in IT for about 15 years. She began her career working on a helpdesk doing really basic tasks like resetting passwords. From there, she worked up through more complex tasks. Over the years, she has touched virtually every technology. Currently, she is moving into working with the Cloud, specializing in helping companies to migrate their data across. (2.10) – Sarah started working for Microsoft about a year ago. Phil asked her what inspired that move. She says that she had always wanted to work for Microsoft and jokes that is her inner geek showing. Now that she has the right skill set she has been able to fulfill her ambition. (2.33) – Can you please share a unique career tip with the I.T. career audience? Sarah’s advice is to “be authentic and learn to speak up”. It is important to share your opinion. That after all is why you have been invited to meetings or asked to work on projects. (3.40) – Can you tell us about your worst career moment? And what you learned from that experience. Sarah explains that, a while back, she was working with a manager she just did not get along with. They were polar opposites. This situation pushed her to change jobs for the wrong reasons and she ended up working for a company that was not a good fit for her. Basically, she found herself in an even worse situation than the one she had just left. But, it forced her to be proactive and turn the situation around. She learned to handle thing differently whenever she was struggling to work with someone. In the end, that negative episode turned out to be a growing experience for her. (4.56) – Phil asks Sarah what she now looks for when moving jobs. Sarah likes to work for supportive managers that inspire her. She also prefers flexible working and needs to be doing the type of work she enjoys. Phil understands this completely. He once made the mistake of accepting a job despite the fact that the interview went badly. That experience taught him to never ignore red flags. (6.29) – What was your best career moment? For Sarah that has been joining Microsoft. Something she has wanted to do from the moment she started using computers. Her skill enabled her to land her dream job. But, there was also an element of luck involved. She was referred by someone she met through the Glasgow Azure user group, that she founded 2 years ago. He worked for Microsoft. (7.16) – Where are you based? Sarah explains that she works mostly from home or customer sites, often, in Scotland and England. She loves the flexibility the job gives her. (7.46) – Can you tell us what excites you about the future of the IT industry and careers? The fact that no two days are the same is something Sarah finds exciting. This is especially the case now. The whole cloud first mentality has turned things on their head. Everything is evolving and progressing very quickly. Sarah really enjoys being able to continuously learn and try out new things. (8.43) – Clearly your focus is the Cloud, but is there any other area that particularly interests you? Sarah describes herself as a server hugger, but she is now getting more involved in DevOps. She is focusing on understanding the infrastructure as code and how to automate. (10.00) – What drew you to a career in IT? Sarah has always enjoyed computers. The fact that she can help people and share her knowledge is something she also enjoys. Her career in IT allows her to combine all of these passions, so, for her, it is the ideal career. (10.36) – What is the best career advice you have ever received? Sarah says that is – “be yourself”. When she was younger she tried to follow in the footsteps of some of the people she worked with and admired. Unfortunately, that strategy led to her working in roles that she was not really suited for. (11.09) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Sarah would spend more time learning about networking. She has a good grasp of infrastructure, but often wishes her networking knowledge was even better. (11.53) – What are you currently focusing on in your career? Sarah is currently focusing on filling in the gaps, learning more. This year, she particularly wants to secure some Linux certification. She also wants to become a more rounded person. (12.19) – What is the number one non-technical skill that has helped you the most in your IT career? Interestingly, Sarah’s secret skill is curling. She has been involved in the sport for around 20 years, now. Playing has taught her the importance of teamwork. As the captain (skip) she has to make decisions for the team. Often, these are split-second gut feeling decisions that define the game. So, you have to become a confident leader as well as be a good team member. The skills she has picked up while curling has definitely helped her to succeed in her IT career. (13.44) – Phil asks Sarah to share a final piece of career advice with the audience. Sarah’s parting piece of advice is not to be afraid to pursue your dreams. You are good enough. It is important to recognize and deal properly with imposter syndrome. BEST MOMENTS: (1.40) SARAH – "I've probably touched every technology there is." (3.20) SARAH – "Be yourself. And don't be frightened to use your voice." (5.40) SARAH – “If you enjoy your work, it's not really work, it becomes like an extension of you" (8.18) SARAH – “I pick up new technologies, methodology and meet new people with different perspectives all the time." (14.00) SARAH – "Don't be afraid to go and pursue your dreams we are all worthy of those dreams.”

So this week Sarah and I take a look at Martina Navratilova's recent comments about trans people in sport. She says that “Letting men compete as women simply if they change their name and take hormones is unfair — no matter how those athletes may throw their weight around,” Navratilova wrote. ​ So Sarah and I take a look at that. Is she out of her mind? Is she telling the truth? Can men pretend to be trans in order to win sporting scholarships? We examine the evidence.

While contemplating the rigors of the high school social scene which they are about to enter, Sarah and friends come to a conclusion: they need to get good and plastered beforehand. (Merely as a training exercise, of course, with the intention of avoiding future embarrassment.) So Sarah and three of her teenage friends do their best to get proper smashed (for educational purposes.)

Ep. 323: Cheat or Treat, Let's Talk Sweets! In this episode, Stacy and Sarah are helping you prepare for America's sugar holiday, Halloween! Find out Stacy's and Sarah's strategies for empowering their kids to make good choices around trick-or-treating candy, mindset tips for navigating sugar cravings and getting back on track after overindulging, and why raw honey is such a unique and powerful natural sweetener! Click here to listen in iTunes   If you enjoy the show, please review it in iTunes! The Paleo View (TPV), Episode 323: Cheat or Treat, Let's Talk Sweets! (0:00) Intro (0:40) Today's topic: how to successfully navigate the sugar holiday, Halloween! Let's change the way we think about Halloween and focus on how we treat ourselves (self care) versus how we treat ourselves (sugar) to get rid of the guilt and shame mentality. This topic goes beyond just Halloween. Halloween kicks off a two month stretch of indulgent holidays! Think "I'm choosing to treat myself" versus "I'm cheating on my diet." Sugar, in small doses, doesn't have to be detrimental to your health and it can offer some benefits like social comfort and enjoyment. Paleo Treats is this week's podcast sponsor! Paleo Treats "changed Sarah's world!" They were one of the first paleo desserts on the scene. Sarah's and Stacy's favorite Paleo Treat is the Bandito. It's like a peanut butter cup -- but paleo! In addition to the Bandito, Paleo Treats has a number of delicious treats including the Cacao Now (açaí and chocolate), the Mac Attack (coconut cookie), the Mustang Bar (oatmeal cookie), the Rocket (espresso brownie), and the Brownie Bar (flourless chocolate cake). The Bandito is a great options for those seeking a low sugar option because it only has 7g of sugar from honey! Try these delicious treats for yourself: www.paleotreats.com/thepaleoview and use code PALEOVIEW for 10% off! One strategy Sarah uses to be mindful of her dessert intake is that she'll freeze cookies or sweets. Then, when a craving strikes, she must defrost the treat, which allows time for her craving to lessen or go away. Paleo Treats are great for this because they're stored frozen! (19:38) Natural Sweeteners Paleo Treats uses honey to sweeten their treats (no refined sugar!). In researching her new book about the microbiome, Sarah has discovered really cool research about honey, which separates it from any other sugar. Before we get to honey though, Blackstrap molasses is definitely on a pedestal. One tablespoon has just 42 calories, 20% of your RDA of calcium and iron, most B vitamins, and is a great source of chromium. It has more iron per calorie than steak and more calcium per calorie than cheese. But it's a very strong sweetener so it's primarily used in gingerbread flavored foods. Stacy uses blackstrap molasses in sauces or in her Asian Short Ribs recipe. It's also great in her Chewy Molasses & Ginger Cookies! Honey is non diabetogenic. For some reason that researchers are still trying to figure out, it doesn't elicit the insulin response you'd expect and doesn't seem to contribute to insulin resistance the way you'd expect. Studies show that diabetics can sweeten with honey which dysregulating their blood sugar. Honey doesn't create the same response as cane sugar or maple syrup, two sweeteners that have a very similar saccharide breakdown. Honey has incredible anti-microbial properties. Raw honey has fermentable substrate in it, which feeds our gut bacteria. It increases microbial diversities and selectively feeds probiotic stains that are very desirable. It's incredibly beneficial to the gut microbiome! So Sarah puts honey on an equally high, but different pedestal as blackstrap molasses. (24:26) Honey versus raw honey There are certain properties of honey that are lost when it's pasteurized or cooked. It has unique compounds that are similar to phytochemicals that we haven't completely characterized. There really isn't another food like honey! But when you heat things, chemical structures tend to unravel which can change their function. Raw honey is antibacterial, antioxidant, anti-tumor, anti-inflammatory, and antiviral. It's cardio protective, gastro protective, and can promote wound healing. If you make cookies with raw honey or put a spoonful of raw honey in a cup of tea, you're going to lose some of these properties, but it's still going to be fermentable (things the gut bacteria will eat), which still benefits your microbiome. Stacy's strategy to maximize the benefits of raw honey in hot tea is to let the tea cool to drinking temperature and then add the honey. Honey has been shown to improve IBS both with chronic constipation and chronic diarrhea. Honey is also a cough suppressant and is very soothing for the throat. (30:27) Defining what a treat is Stacy defines treats as anything outside the scope of a nutrient dense healing food, or what Mark Sisson would call "the 20%." Sarah agrees, defining treats as anything that's not adding nutritive value to her diet, for example, gluten-free burger buns, popcorn, and rice (unless it's made with broth). In her house, the most common treat foods are popcorn (once a week, maybe twice) or a sweet treat (once a week). Stacy agrees, saying her family usually has a sweet treat twice a week and they try to focus on recipes that are naturally low in sugar. One of their favorites is this Chocolate Chia Seed Pudding, which has a lot of nutrient density! If you're experiencing a craving, it's often because you need something. If you're craving sugar, it might be a sign that you need vitamin C, more sleep, some downtime (reducing stress), healthy fats, magnesium, calcium, etc. Sometimes when Stacy has a sugar craving, she eats a clementine or an orange to get a dose of vitamin C. (37:12) Approaching Halloween and making treats a choice Stacy makes an agreement with her kids that they can keep a few pieces of trick-or-treating candy and they'll exchange the rest for legos or pennies - whatever they negotiate. Then Stacy removes the "exchanged candy" from their house and brings it to share at her office. Sarah's kids love the ritual of trick-or-treating! Sarah goes through the candy with her kids and separates out the candy that will make them sick. Her kids will then pick the treats they want and amazingly, have the self control to eat them over an extended period of time (versus all in one sitting). It's important to figure out what works for you treat-wise - what fulfills you and makes you happy! If you don't define a limit yourself, that's where temptation can creep in, leaving you feeling ashamed and guilty. If you overindulge, don't dwell on it. It's over and done with so don't decide to throw in the towel and eat that other bag of candy. Move forward and start fresh! If you get stuck on the "sugar rollercoaster," and have a hard time going cold turkey to reset your palette, Stacy recommends weaning yourself off sugar by upgrading your sweets to clean ingredients by making paleo cookies or eating Paleo Treats. Sarah has totally experienced the slippery slope of eating one sweet and it creating a domino effect to eat the whole bag - more than once! Mindset is very important when it comes to treats. Sarah recommends viewing treats as an indulgence and as a choice. If things start to unravel, there are foods she won't touch like gluten, dairy, or soy, but there are plenty of delicious treats that can be made with paleo ingredients that will set her up for a sugar rollercoaster. What's true of those days is that it stops being a choice and starts becoming a compulsion. One thing Sarah has found really useful when things start to unravel is that she consciously chooses to eat the treat and be very present. She makes it a real, intentional moment, savoring the flavors, the texture, and the experience. She also notices that this compulsion is a symptom of not getting enough sleep or being overly stressed and comes up with a plan for taking action to address those imbalances so the compulsions stop. Dark chocolate and sometimes fruit is Sarah's go-to for a treat when she's trying to reset her compulsions. (51:24) Alternative sweeteners Be a mindful consumer when it comes to the new, no calorie sweeteners on the market. Think through what the ingredients are and if that's what will set you up for success. Google these products, look up the ingredients and how it's made. Check the sources and read multiple articles with varying view points. There is now a conclusive study in humans that stevia can disrupt progesterone and testosterone signaling. Low calorie sweeteners, low glycemic sweeteners, and keto sweeteners all have problems. They either disrupt the gut microbiome, increase leaky gut, or mess with hormones. The body has a far greater capacity to process a moderate and occasional amount of real sugar (honey, maple sugar, cane sugar). We can process and detox those better than sugar substitutes (even plant-derived sweeteners) like stevia. If you overindulge this holiday season, eat fish, drink broth, and sleep! And check out these recovery-themed episodes: The Paleo View Episode 15: Holiday Recovery The Paleo View Episode 21: Sugar Detox The Paleo View Episode 71: Sugar Detox Get your questions in! We want to hear from you! And there's no end to questions we can answer and topics we can address! Engage on social media! That's how we get feedback! Thank you for listening Relevant posts https://www.thepaleomom.com/paleo-podcast-sugar-and-salt-cravings/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/sugar-vs-sweeteners/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/beating-sugar-addiction/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/is-sugar-paleo/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/paleo-splenda-erythritol-stevia-low-calorie-sweeteners/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/whats-the-next-superfood-sweetener/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/trouble-with-stevia/  

RUNNING WITH THE GIANTS                                                               ABRAHAM           Hebrews 12:1  Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.   NIV Genesis 15:2-6   But Abram said, “O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.” Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”   NIV EVEN WHEN WE DON’T UNDERSTAND GOD’S WAYS…. GOD ALWAYS DOES THE RIGHT THING!!!! 1. Even if it takes a long time.         Genesis 16:1-2   Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said.   NIV 2. Even if it seems absurd.                     Genesis 18:10-14 Then the Lord said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master is old, will I now have this pleasure?" Then the Lord said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I really have a child, now that I am old?' Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."    NIV  3.    Even if we don’t understand.  Hebrews 11:17-19   By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. Even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned’, Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead…”    NIV    OTHER LESSONS FROM ABRAHAM “Don’t make earth your home.”    Hebrews 11:9-10   By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.   NIV “Live with an eternal perspecitve.”  Hebrews 11:15-16    If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country — a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.     NIV

So Sarah and I were both really lucky to sit down with living legend, Miss Coco Peru recently.  ​ Sarah and I are huge fans and it made sense that she would be the icing on the cake for Season 2.  ​ Coco is without a doubt one of the greatest performers in the industry. She's done film and theatre and her one-woman shows are legendary but it's her humour, her compassion and her activism that sets her apart from most.  ​ I feel like she needs no introduction so if you aren't familiar, head over to her YouTube page and prepare to spend hours giggling hysterically to yourself.  ​ ​

THE BIGGEST BUTS IN THE BIBLE                                                                  THE BUT OF FIXING IT YOURSELF Genesis 16:1-2  Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said.   NIV TRUST GOD Even if it takes a long time. Hebrews 11:11   And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise.    NIV Even if it seems ridiculous.  Genesis 18:10-14  Then the Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my master is old, will I now have this pleasure?” Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.”    NIV Even if those around you don’t.  Genesis 21:6-7   Sarah said, “God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me.” And she added, “Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age.”    NIV  LESSONS FROM SARAH 1. “Don’t try to get ahead of God when He isn’t moving fast enough for you.” 2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient…   NIV Psalm 37:7  Be still in the presence of the LORD, and wait patiently for him to act. Don’t worry about evil people who prosper or fret about their wicked schemes.     New Living 2. When you must wait, focus on what’s happening in you, not what’s happening to you. Romans 8:24-25   That is why waiting does not diminish us, any more than waiting diminishes a pregnant mother. We are enlarged in the waiting. We, of course, don't see what is enlarging us. But the longer we wait, the larger we become, and the more joyful our expectancy.    Message James 1:2-4    Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.    NIV 3. Even our very best cannot possibly compare to anything God has in mind . Isaiah 64:4   Since before time began no one has ever imagined, No ear heard, no eye seen, a God like you who works for those who wait for him.    Message

Mothers of the Faith Rev. Ben Porter Genesis 18:9-15 9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

I am very excited to have Sarah Becker with me today! Sarah is a holistic problem solver and she is super smart- in fact, she's a real genius! She has some really great stories to tell you today and I'm sure you're going to want to take some notes, so be sure to have your pen and note-pad ready when you listen in to and hear the awesome tips she has to offer you.    Sarah is really passionate about helping people and with her unique set of skills, which range from Excel spreadsheet guru to process improvement expert, to energy healer, and she is able to solve problems in a way that others simply cannot.    Sarah spent ten years in corporate America, even though for much of that she felt she should have her own business. Six of those years were spent with one of the nation's top retailers and it was there that she honed her problem-solving skills. She became known as The Fixer because she could solve any challenge that was sent her way. She really loved converting her co-workers' painful daily tasks into simple, and automated slices of heaven! She has never yet met a task that she has not been able to improve!   Sarah left the corporate world to bring her knowledge to the small business space because people work way harder than they actually need to. So Sarah's main goal is to make your work and your personal life easier and more enjoyable. Listen in today to find out more!   Show highlights:   What brought Sarah to where she is today. What Sarah's journey has been like for her. The pain that Sarah went through and her limiting beliefs when she first started her business. The mistake that Sarah made when she first started out on her own and how she solved that. Sarah's early mid-life crisis and the spiritual journey that followed that. What Sarah learned from her journey. Being the Chief Holistic Officer of the business. The first time that she doubled her sales. Some advice about increasing your price to better align with your true value. Recognizing the valuable pieces of yourself. Sarah's top two sales strategies. Sarah's top tips.   If you would like to grow a successful and sustainable small business, where do you actually start? Today our sponsor is Cheryl Lightshoe, an international speaker. Cheryl has a new book out, called Straight Talk For Smart Business Women- Critical Tools To Build And Grow Your Business and it's a great way to stop the noise in your head and to help you to regain your focus. You can find her book on Amazon or visit her website www.straighttalkforsmartbusinesswomen.com. We will have Cheryl as our guest on the show in a few months, so keep a look out for her!      For a 20% discount for Sarah's process use the promo code double.   You can find Sarah's e-workbook at www.chiefholisticofficer.com.    Schedule your free 45-minute consultation with Sarah at www.clearsimplebusiness.com    You can find Sarah at sarah@clearsimplebusiness.com or at sarah@chiefholisticofficer.com and you can join also her Facebook community at CHO@ Chief Holistic Officer.   You can email Ursula at ursula@salescoachnow.com    Go to Ursula's website at www.salescoachnow.com to grab your free webinar The Authentic Sales Formula worth $500.   Go to www.ursulamentjes.com to see Ursula's latest keynotes and click on the link to book her now.       

It's the monthly crossover episode with Sarah Bragg of Surviving Sarah, and this month, we're chatting about personal growth. I mean, in between just keeping all my plates spinning I hope I'm growing as a person, at least a little, right? A lot of what contributes to my personal growth are the books I read, the things I listen to, and the products I love. So Sarah and I start out with the books we're reading, and I have a bit of a diatribe about the importance of reading fiction, then we talk about what we're learning right now, and we wrap up with products we're loving. (Between the two of us, we spend an exorbitant amount of time on coffee.) Whether you're totally growing as a person or are already perfect and need no help whatsoever, listen in and lighten up! Links from the show: Little Fires Everywhere The Nightingale All the Light You Cannot See Something Borrowed Borrowed & Blue Baby Proof How to Lead When You're Not in Charge Present Over Perfect Breathing Room Who Needs God? podcast Sherlock Holmes vol. 1 and vol. 2 Talking as Fast as I Can Tell the Wolves I'm Home Peter Rollins podcast The Sacred Enneagram Defiant Joy Laugh It Up Lion Coffee Pacific Bone Broth The Lazy Genius podcast Trader Joe's Fair Trade Shade Grown Ethiopian Coffee Clicklist John's Crazy Socks A Wrinkle in Time

In early 2017, Sarah's grandfather passed away from complications of vascular dementia. Her family never truly dealt with his diagnosis, and the end of his life felt totally disconnected from how he lived. So Sarah set out in search of a better way to live with dementia. This is what she found.

Gen 18:1-33 The Three Visitors 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favour in your eyes, my lord,[a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs[b] of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. 9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said. 10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” 13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.” Abraham Pleads for Sodom 16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?” “If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.” 29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?” He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?” He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?” He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more.What if only ten can be found there?” He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.” 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. Joshua 6:1-27 1 Now the gates of Jericho were securely barred because of the Israelites. No one went out and no one came in. 2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. 3 March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. 4 Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams’ horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. 5 When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have the whole army give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the army will go up, everyone straight in.” 6 So Joshua son of Nun called the priests and said to them, “Take up the ark of the covenant of the Lord and have seven priests carry trumpets in front of it.” 7 And he ordered the army, “Advance! March around the city, with an armed guard going ahead of the ark of the Lord.” 8 When Joshua had spoken to the people, the seven priests carrying the seven trumpets before the Lord went forward, blowing their trumpets, and the ark of the Lord’s covenant followed them. 9 The armed guard marched ahead of the priests who blew the trumpets, and the rear guard followed the ark. All this time the trumpets were sounding. 10 But Joshua had commanded the army, “Do not give a war cry, do not raise your voices, do not say a word until the day I tell you to shout. Then shout!” 11 So he had the ark of the Lord carried around the city, circling it once. Then the army returned to camp and spent the night there. 12 Joshua got up early the next morning and the priests took up the ark of the Lord. 13 The seven priests carrying the seven trumpets went forward, marching before the ark of the Lord and blowing the trumpets. The armed men went ahead of them and the rear guard followed the ark of the Lord, while the trumpets kept sounding. 14 So on the second day they marched around the city once and returned to the camp. They did this for six days. 15 On the seventh day, they got up at daybreak and marched around the city seven times in the same manner, except that on that day they circled the city seven times. 16 The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the army, “Shout! For the Lord has given you the city! 17 The city and all that is in it are to be devoted[a] to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent. 18 But keep away from the devoted things, so that you will not bring about your own destruction by taking any of them. Otherwise you will make the camp of Israel liable to destruction and bring trouble on it. 19 All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the Lord and must go into his treasury.” 20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. 22 Joshua said to the two men who had spied out the land, “Go into the prostitute’s house and bring her out and all who belong to her, in accordance with your oath to her.” 23 So the young men who had done the spying went in and brought out Rahab, her father and mother, her brothers and sisters and all who belonged to her. They brought out her entire family and put them in a place outside the camp of Israel. 24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house. 25 But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day. 26 At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: “Cursed before the Lord is the one who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho: “At the cost of his firstborn son he will lay its foundations; at the cost of his youngest he will set up its gates.” 27 So the Lord was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land. Notes: Appearance of strength is irrelevant Jos 6:1-2 Jericho’s leaders have barred the gates - it was possible to make peace (think Rahab) - they knew what the Lord has done - but this is their considered response In the Lord’s mind this is irrelevant. Do we measure people’s resistance to the gospel? It is of no consequence and is possibly us being presumptuous. Stick to the (seemingly) foolish strategy - the Lord gives a bizarre plan to overcome Jericho - they follow it and it works! We have a ‘foolish’ strategy too! Tell the story of the Cross of Christ - there are only two possible outcomes, Salvation or Destruction.

Gen 18:1-33 The Three Visitors 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favour in your eyes, my lord,[a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs[b] of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. 9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said. 10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?” 13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.” Abraham Pleads for Sodom 16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?” “If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.” 29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?” He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?” He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?” He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more.What if only ten can be found there?” He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.” 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. Joshua 6:1-27 1 Now the gates of Jericho were securely barred because of the Israelites. No one went out and no one came in. 2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. 3 March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. 4 Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams’ horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. 5 When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have the whole army give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the army will go up, everyone straight in.” 6 So Joshua son of Nun called the priests and said to them, “Take up the ark of the covenant of the Lord and have seven priests carry trumpets in front of it.” 7 And he ordered the army, “Advance! March around the city, with an armed guard going ahead of the ark of the Lord.” 8 When Joshua had spoken to the people, the seven priests carrying the seven trumpets before the Lord went forward, blowing their trumpets, and the ark of the Lord’s covenant followed them. 9 The armed guard marched ahead of the priests who blew the trumpets, and the rear guard followed the ark. All this time the trumpets were sounding. 10 But Joshua had commanded the army, “Do not give a war cry, do not raise your voices, do not say a word until the day I tell you to shout. Then shout!” 11 So he had the ark of the Lord carried around the city, circling it once. Then the army returned to camp and spent the night there. 12 Joshua got up early the next morning and the priests took up the ark of the Lord. 13 The seven priests carrying the seven trumpets went forward, marching before the ark of the Lord and blowing the trumpets. The armed men went ahead of them and the rear guard followed the ark of the Lord, while the trumpets kept sounding. 14 So on the second day they marched around the city once and returned to the camp. They did this for six days. 15 On the seventh day, they got up at daybreak and marched around the city seven times in the same manner, except that on that day they circled the city seven times. 16 The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the army, “Shout! For the Lord has given you the city! 17 The city and all that is in it are to be devoted[a] to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent. 18 But keep away from the devoted things, so that you will not bring about your own destruction by taking any of them. Otherwise you will make the camp of Israel liable to destruction and bring trouble on it. 19 All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the Lord and must go into his treasury.” 20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. 22 Joshua said to the two men who had spied out the land, “Go into the prostitute’s house and bring her out and all who belong to her, in accordance with your oath to her.” 23 So the young men who had done the spying went in and brought out Rahab, her father and mother, her brothers and sisters and all who belonged to her. They brought out her entire family and put them in a place outside the camp of Israel. 24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house. 25 But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day. 26 At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: “Cursed before the Lord is the one who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho: “At the cost of his firstborn son he will lay its foundations; at the cost of his youngest he will set up its gates.” 27 So the Lord was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land. Notes: Appearance of strength is irrelevant Jos 6:1-2 Jericho’s leaders have barred the gates - it was possible to make peace (think Rahab) - they knew what the Lord has done - but this is their considered response In the Lord’s mind this is irrelevant. Do we measure people’s resistance to the gospel? It is of no consequence and is possibly us being presumptuous. Stick to the (seemingly) foolish strategy - the Lord gives a bizarre plan to overcome Jericho - they follow it and it works! We have a ‘foolish’ strategy too! Tell the story of the Cross of Christ - there are only two possible outcomes, Salvation or Destruction.

This is Safety on Tap! I'm your host Andrew Barrett, and since you're listening in, you must be a leader wanting to grow yourself and drastically improve health and safety along the way.  Welcome to you, you're in the right place.  If this is your first time listening in, thanks for joining us and well done for trying something different to improve! Today I'm joined by Dr Sarah Colley from Pockets of Brilliance.  This episode is made possible by Safety On Tap Connected the world's first professional growth accelerator for health and safety professionals. If you are invested in your own development and improvement, this is right for you.  For the price of about 3 coffee's a week, you can accelerate your development and your effectiveness with access to an amazing learning community, educational content like you've never been taught before, and you get 1:1 online coaching with me - your personal coach to help you accelerate your growth.  This combination of things would usually be out of reach of most health and safety professionals, which is the very reason why we developed it - for you.  If you want to know more, your first step is to head over to safetyontap.com/connected, and your second step would be to join our waiting list. I've had Sarah's partner in crime Jonathan Lincolne on to chat on episode 47, when we talk about the work Pockets of Brilliance does and their 5i change methodology.  If you haven't listened to that episode, make sure you do, since Sarah and Jonathan are like two peas in a pod! So Sarah is an organisational psychologist who has never had a real job, and thinks that she would suck at one anyway.  So instead Sarah leads Pockets of Brilliance, a research and implementation group based in Brisbane Australia.  Sarah and her team have decades of success, dozens of companies all over the world and thousands of people who have benefitted from their human-centred approach to change.  Whilst they are without doubt specialists in health and safety, they've realised that culture, people and change are much broader….which Sarah explains more in our conversation.  So we cover a bit about culture and climate and the difference between these, the research that led Sarah into this space, and what they've learned by putting research into practice.  Here's Sarah:   Here's my three takeaways from that chat with Sarah Colley: Be a ninja, like Sarah.  Some of the stereotypes of a health and safety person is as a crusader, a teller, an enforcer, a zealot.  Now that's not always bad, but sometimes we get blinded by our own passion and enthusiasm, which means we are perceived to be pushy, tactless and un-strategic.  I love Sarah's image of the ninja in contrast - reflective, planned, thoughtful, agile, but swift and decisive when the time is right.  If you think you or your team are a little gung-ho, channel your inner ninja, and see if you can't be more cunning about how you communicate, engage and drive change. Understand climate and culture.  My personal perspective on this is this: I learned about climate and culture, found it to be very loose and vague, and sort of put it to the side as I just leaned into the work of a health and safety professional.  But I came back to it because the concepts of culture and climate are critical to us understanding the big picture, that health and safety doesn’t exist in a vacuum.  And it especially reinforces the idea that it's not all about health and safety, which can feel confronting if we feel like we are overstepping our role.  Bottom line is this - I don't think you can be effective unless you have a solid understanding of culture and climate.  If you couldn't have a comfortable conversation with me about it, you've got homework to do.  This link is a starting point for that homework, plus included in my handwritten reflection the 4 quadrant model Sarah mentioned.  You can get access to my handwritten reflection notes for each episode, which includes a personal reflection template for yourself, if you jump on our mailing list RIGHT BELOW! Take action.  This isn't specific to this episode, but a core component of your ongoing growth and development.  When it comes to research, Sarah mentioned that much of it never gets turned into action in the real world.  Sometimes that's because it's not great research.  But research is only as good as the action that happens from the insights it uncovers.  So if you read something, turn it into action.  Reflective practice is a great way to help you structure how to do this, so go back and listen to Ep 23 with Tim Allred to learn more about that.  If you want to know more about how to take action on what you learn as a framework for professional development, I'm actually putting together a free course which teaches you about the learning frameworks which have made me successful, and how I use these now to help members of Safety on Tap Connected.  Whilst the course is most helpful to managers of teams to help them improve how they do professional development, it's just as useful for individual professionals.  If you are interested in that free course, send me an email with the subject line "free course" and I'll keep you in the loop. Until next time, what's the one thing you'll do to take positive, effective or rewarding action, to grow yourself, and drastically improve health and safety along the way.  Seeya! [thrive_lead_lock id='1854'] Click here for your FREE download of my handwritten notes, PLUS a reflection template for you to use for this episode.   I'll also send you the links to all the available back-catalogue of reflection templates so you can access these at any time. [/thrive_lead_lock]

Sarah: Hi everybody this is Sarah Potter from she can trade. And this is SCT podcast. We are at episode 34. Today's discussion is going to be focused around earnings and specifically how do you adjust and trade sorry how do you adjust and focus on your trades through that earning season. Obviously we'll talk a little bit about actually placing trades for earnings as a result of those. But also what do you do with all your other trades what to expect in the market when we have to go through an earnings season. So I have T.J. here. T.J: Hello! Sarah: And we're going to discuss this together. I think it'll be interesting also to hear our various perspectives on these kinds of things. So let's start off with a little kind of a definition of a basically an idea of what is earnings and how do you basically think the market moves through earnings season versus when we're not in earnings. T.J: All right. So earnings we're talking about corporate earnings so every quarter financials companies release their financials and there's a lot of anticipation and a lot of excitement around the numbers or are sales up or sales down. Our earnings up earnings down how’s the company doing and obviously how does that link the stock price. Well, if you're a fundamental investor obviously the more the company's earnings and the better their financial ratios the higher the stock price. So people look for those numbers they look. They read through them they look for a lot of details to see whether the stock price is accurate. If it's a fair representation of where the stock should be trading and if not obviously do they think the stock price should be higher or lower? And the reason we need to watch for earnings is because it's a high volatility event. It's a pretty binary event. So the day before the earnings are announced or the day of there's excitement earnings are announced and as soon as the numbers come out you generally see a decent a big move in the in the stock's price either up or down. So what we need to do is options traders are we need to look for two things coming into earnings. One is we need to look for increased volatility. So we will see on our options chain that the week of earnings and especially coming into the day of earnings the implied volatility of that stock will increase. The other thing we need to watch out for is obviously if we're holding options positions through earnings so if we have put or a call or a spread or any trade that expires after the earnings date that that earnings date can significantly influence the price of the stock. And we just need to be aware of of those potential kind of potential influences when we go through earnings. So Sarah are there any websites or how do you find out, what do you look for where do you look to see when companies are going to have earnings. Sarah: Yes, so I'm going to SCT up my trades differently through the earnings season than I will other times. And I do think that it's very important to always be paying attention to looking for when those earnings announcements are going to be because it's really going to change the flavor of how that stock is moving. So you guys know when we're trading in the trading room you'll often see us looking at the history of price how it's moving in relation to the broad market and those are really ways that we can identify opportunities to trade. But when we have earnings and earnings season that that announcement is going to change things. It's gonna do it also leading up to it. So you'll notice that I will still trade stocks a couple weeks before their earnings but we're gonna have to deal with higher implied volatility and if I'm buying a collar put I'm gonna have to deal with paying more than what I usually would in anticipation of that. And now a lot of times I can trade really well earnings actually before their earnings announcements so there's some good trades there when we look at how that stock has been behaving moving up to his announcement. We might have an expiry after the earnings but we can definitely take an opportunity to take advantage of a move prior to earnings. So generally stocks especially the more and more there in the media will have a nice move prior to its earnings announcement so we could definitely capitalize on that. So I mean it's tough to find them though right it's not about just okay well it's the next quarter. So all the stocks are gonna be moving because they have earnings announcements, there's going to be times when those stocks actually don't move they're gonna have less of a reaction than what market makers had anticipated would be in that option. And so that's also something to be paying attention to but when we're first looking for trades you can look at something like Yahoo Finance or a market watch or I think actually even some trading brokerage platforms have earnings announcements in them if I am correct on that. Did that do they have earnings announcements right in the platform? T.J: A lot of platforms do. Definitely they do have the earnings dates. Obviously the other one too is nasdaq.com. They list the earnings dates you do have to generally current earnings date. If I'm going to be trading the earnings and I really need to make sure that it is that exact date whether it's before the market or after the close. I generally check two different sources because you'll find out as well if you look comb through earnings dates that different websites list may have a day earlier a couple days later. It may not always be that accurate. So I do like to double check there the one thing I do like about earnings I guess we can real really get into some strategies is what happens at earnings? There's two things there's the actual result of what happens and there's a move based on the result of what happens but there's also a move based on the expectations and that's how most stocks move. So if Nike moves up say they've got 75 cents per share of earnings and Nike so if the expectation was only 50 then that look great stocks gonna move up. If expectations were say 85 or 90 cents then the stock could move down as well so we can't look at just the absolute number. It has to be we have to look at expectations we have to look at was it sales was it revenue how do those compare? And I think that's really what makes kind of earnings such an exciting time because there's so many variables involved. So with so many variables, so many inputs, so many unknowns what are some strategies that we can look at to give us kind of a shot at the best outcome because obviously saying hey I think let me guess I think the stocks gonna go up after earnings that's really a 50-50 trade at best guessing in the direction and we'll probably most likely guess in the wrong direction. So what can we do obviously out of the money credit spreads those are that's a great way to trade earnings you can limit your downside on that by keeping this spread nice and tight so maybe you don't want to do a five or ten dollar spread maybe you want to do a dollar or 250 wide spread. Keep your risk reasonable look for something out of the money as standard and a hat 1.5 standard deviation away staying wait far away from where the expected move is on that earnings announcement. Same thing with iron condors those work really well as well you can also just I mean you can also sell straddles. You can sell a strangle they work out really well again you're playing to the fact that the market thinks there's gonna be a bigger move and then really what's priced in and that's usually what happens. The trouble is they're unlimited loss. So we do have to be careful with that and if we are trading strategies where there is no stop-loss on them or where there is no limitation on what you can lose, we do need to be very careful because nine times out of 10 you're fine but those one or two trades where the earnings is two or three times the expected move. You might see yourself in a loss situation but I do think that there is a lot of opportunity out there to trade earnings. We just have to come at it with kind of a from a standpoint of this is these are some fun extra trades that we're doing. This isn't bread and butter meat and potatoes this isn't how I generate my reliable weekly income. Sarah: Yeah, I wanted to mention that so when you're trading earnings I think the biggest tip is that you don't want to expect that all of your earnings trades are going to work and I think you need to kind of account for that. So when you're SCTting up trade strategies through earnings let's say you're placing one earnings trade a week through the earnings season that if you look at the collective of all of those at the end you can't have a goal of making eighty percent of those work. Because they won't because those trades at the end of the day are really more 50-50 trades. So as long as you're realistic about that and if you test the strategy over different quarters through the year and let's say you're coming out ahead sixty-five percent of your trades are right through earnings then that is a time that that you want to be adding all more contracts but you certainly want to test that through more than one quarter. So trading earnings is fun because yes it's pretty hyped up everyone talks about it. There's all this great opportunity, absolutely but remember many people don't talk they're losing trades. They only talk about their winning trades and it's with earnings you're gonna have winners and losers to betting regardless of what strategy you pick. But you can still make it work as long as you're very aware of what your percentage is as you move through each earning season. And so perhaps a goal closer to about 65% so you're getting more winners than losers so that overall you're still coming out with profit is important you don't want to just put trades on. And just pay commissions or come out at zero no your opportunity cost is important as well you've spent time looking for those trades and that's really relevant as well. T.J: Yeah, exactly and I think that is I think that's the key to trading is everybody tries to do the same thing. And I think if you have to find something that works for how you feel comfortable trading and if earnings is a strategy that you can make money at that's fantastic I mean that that's great that's what you need to be focusing on. For somebody else doing the exact same trades they might not look at it the same way or be able to enter or exit at the same time and they may not, they may do the same trades but not but end up losing money on that series of trades. So it's really something that's very personalized and if you can make it work fantastic you just need to realize that with earnings there is a ton of anticipated and unanticipated things that are happening. And it makes it really exciting and there's that potential to make to make some really quick money. As you make that money you place the trade five minutes before earnings are released at five minutes after four and it's usually either max loss or max profit. There's usually not a lot of difference in between and if that's how you like to trade. Then yeah, what earnings is something that you can dip your toe into. Sarah: Yeah, I think that's a good point let's end on that so we're moving into earnings season now so there's lots of opportunity and I think TJ's got some good examples here on how to kind of keep that risk a little tighter and I do like the idea of still trading but trading out of the money. And keeping that spread a little tighter so that if you some of those trades work great, if they don't that's fine. You're not blowing up any accounts. So look forward to you guys remember we do have our live trading room which is the opportunity for you to see both of us trade live all the time showing our real accounts real, trades, real money. Look forward to seeing you there and happy trading everybody.  

Ep. 198, Weight Loss Follow Up On this episode of The Paleo View, Stacy and Sarah answer a question on how to lose weight a second time and why it might be more difficult.  If you enjoy the show, please review it in iTunes!The Paleo View (TPV), Episode 198: Weight Loss Follow UpIntro (0:00) News and Views (1:18)This week, Sarah is tired because she returned from PaleoFx!Considers this one the best one yet! Check out PaleoFx TV, the on demand streaming service! Watch PaleoFx talks and demos anytime you want. It's Netflix but Paleo! Stacy missed it this year (for the first time!) due to going to Europe last week. Instead, she spent time with her family. Weight Loss Series Continued (7:49)Question from Stella, possibly our longest question ever!Stella: "I share a multi-generational home with my kids (ages 12-22), and my parents (age 75). I am divorced from the kids' father. I am unemployed, a student and a home-school parent to my 12 year old who has an autoimmune disease (Juvenille Idiopathic Arthritis). Diabetes, autoimmunity, and obesity tends to run in the family. My fiance' lives in Europe (communication with him is why I often have trouble getting 7-8 hours sleep, or optimizing my sleep).I have been told I am going through perimenopause early. Finances do not permit buying grassfed meat, milk, or cheese.. We do buy grassfed butter, which is used liberally. I have a food allergy to industrial hemp seed (hemp seed, hemp milk, hemp cereal, hemp protein, etc). I thought getting fat as I had kids was inevitable and I never dieted cos I watched my mother struggle for years.... But finally I got scared, I was obese, retaining water, and I had to do something. !n 2013-14 I lost 70 pounds using a variety of lowcarb and paleo diets and doing Crossfit and swimming. I went from a size 20 to a size 12, 220 pounds to 150. I felt great. I looked great.... Life happened, I got off focus, carbs crept back in, I became inconsistent with Crossfit... ALL the pounds (plus a couple more) came back on, I injured my knee (doing yoga!) and was later diagnosed with a pelvic floor issue, and told to lose weight. This January (2016) I started lowcarb Primal and daily walking. I lost about 14 pounds in January.... and then the weight loss stopped. I have persevered. Walking, working with a PT on my knee and pelvic floor... I keep losing and regaining the same 5 pounds and the scale is stubbornly set right around 206-211... my body measures are similarly ambiguous. I do not eat grains, beans, sugar, junk and I limit my fruit and starchy carb to 2x a week.... The weight was falling off me when I did this last time.So Sarah, Stacy, I listen to your podcast frequently, and I love it. I am afraid this is a series of questions related to your current series on weight-loss research, rather than a single question. Please see the background info as it is essential to understanding what I am asking. When I lost this weight the first time it was effortless. 2-4 pounds a week came rolling off like breathing with lowcarb paleo, and just easy swimming and walking in the beginning (I started Crossfit at 180 pounds)...I have not had normal sleep in probably the last 9 years. This time I am struggling to even get under 200, let alone to the trim muscular person I was 2-3 years ago. What I would love to know ladies is what can I do to maximize my health, and normalize my hormones (I know about the basics, sleep, grains, nuts, carbs, sugars)? How does one lose 100 pounds the second time around Sarah? What worked for you? Stacy, my body image is abysmal. How can I feel positive about my body when I feel weak, fat and like my metabolism is totally broken and will never work again? What worked for you? Sarah, how can I have normal sleep when the only time my man and I can connect and talk is at 12AM my time? You two may have answered some/all of this elsewhere, and if so, please hit me with links! I'm perservering, cos I hate how I feel on SAD diet, but losing weight the second time around seems impossible and it is so discouraging... Sarah, you are a smart lady, and can read the research - what is a person like me (formerly obese, lost a ton fast on paleo, regained it fast and is now trying to lose it again) up against metabolically, and how can I address it? I know you are doing a podcast series on weight loss research, and would love to see some more info on this sort of thing.... . Links would be amazing, info would be amazing, Sarah I own and love your books... Much Gratitude to both of you ladies for all you do. Best Regards, Stella"Kudos to Stella for owning that there is a problem and trying to get back on the wagon! That's the best first step. Focusing on how you failed will always leave you stressed and more likely to more bad choices. Focus on what is great in your life! Shame will never lead to positive results. (See our episode on Body Image!) Sarah shares her story on weight gain and loss (see here and here) It took her a long while to let go of becoming super lean and accepting her body for what it can do. Cortisol (stress hormone) is a wonderful hormone that is also a huge jerk. It will block weight loss. Also possible thyroid issues. Talk to your doctor about a full thyroid and cortisol panel. Sleep! You're admitting to not getting enough sleep, so see how you can fix that. Try calling your fiance at his midday most of the time instead when possible because that's your morning. Helping you sleep is a way your partner can help you from afar! Check out Go to Bed, Sarah's ebook Try eating starchy carbs at dinner to help you sleep better Sometimes big carbohydrate changes can be disruptive to your life in many ways. Lots of stories of people, especially women, adding back carbs and having more weight loss success. Check out our show on the Obesity Paradox. Maybe not worrying about the vanity pounds is best for people plateauing close to their goal. Get to a place where your body is healthy, not necessarily looks the best. It's important to persevere, but also to be patient and nurture yourself! It's called a health journey for a reason Thank you for listening! Outro (38:48)

This Week@ 00'58" - 'Exclusive'... CCD/Dementia Trials - Timmy's Story@ 08'53" - So Sarah... What Do You Do? - Dr Sarah Goldsmid@ 11'45" - How To Get Cats To Eat Prescription Diets - Dr Kim Kendall@ 16'30" - Most Bizarre Pet Insurance Claims! - Nadia Crighton Plus...@ 24'03" - Latest Pet & Animal News - Kaye Browne

This Week @ 00'58" - 'Exclusive'... CCD/Dementia Trials - Timmy's Story @ 08'53" - So Sarah... What Do You Do? - Dr Sarah Goldsmid @ 11'45" - How To Get Cats To Eat Prescription Diets - Dr Kim Kendall @ 16'30" - Most Bizarre Pet Insurance Claims! - Nadia Crighton Plus... @ 24'03" - Latest Pet & Animal News - Kaye Browne

What if you could create beautiful photos... of 100 products...in minutes? No, you're not dreaming! Using Photoshop and Smart Objects makes it possible. Sarah Guillot has worked with these tools for years as a User Experience Architect (how cool does that job sound?!) and now she has her own side gig helping Mamapreneurs like you and me use Photoshop for business to make our lives easier and faster. On the Podcast 00:52 - Architecture for Users04:26 - Solving a Real Problem Inside a Make-Believe World08:57 - Not all Mock-ups are Made Equal14:02 - What Makes an Object Smart?24:12 - Photoshop Perks29:23 - Help for Photoshop Newbies31:44 - Silhouette Studio34:00 - Sunshine Sticker Co.38:24 - It's only a Season39:57 - The Most Requested Podcast (for 5-7 year-olds!) Architecture for Users In October of 2014, Sarah Guillot launched her first side gig. But she's still working full time during the day as a User Experience Architect (UX Architect for short) Essentially, Sarah helps big companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and GoDaddy figure out how to create the best possible experience for users traveling through their website. She works on user flows, wire frames (a demonstration of how a website will look and function) and works on landing pages to optimize them for sales or other conversions. Despite her brilliant day job and experience with the online world, Sarah says she had all sorts of fears that held her back when it came to starting her own business. There were so many unknowns she'd never dealt with before - getting a business license, figuring out taxes, and lots of other little details.Although friends have been raving about Sarah's crafty presents for years and encouraging her to open an Etsy shop, she didn't drum up the courage to do it until her kids came along. Sarah has two little girls, age 5 and 7 years old, and she knows how precious her time with them is. She wants more time at home with them and less time answering to a manager! In October of 2014 Sarah purchased an online course for writing and publishing e-books. She followed it step-by-step until she learned about marketing her book and getting reviews. Unfortunately, Sarah felt that the course creator was encouraging her to get reviews in a way she thought was unethical. So Sarah didn't have the huge book launch she wanted, but she did get her books out into the world. After that iffy experience, Sarah shifted directions and started making printables in the Fall of 2014. She thought it was the perfect time to jump on board since everyone would be buying Christmas printables to decorate their homes. Despite her best efforts, over the next six months Sarah wasn't getting much traction on her printable sales. The niche is so crowded already, and there are many beautiful ones available for free online. Sarah realized she'd have to drive a ton of traffic to her shop to really make a living selling printables. In the meantime, Sarah realized there was a big problem in her niche that she could solve! (Ever notice how the path to business success isn't always straight and smooth? Sometimes it takes a bit of trial and error to find the right niche, or a problem that demands a solution. Don't give up, Brilliant Business Mom!) Solving a Real Problem Inside a Make-Believe World When Sarah was setting up her printables shop, she used Photoshop to make mock-ups so she could quickly and easily show case her printables. Sarah quickly realized that there are many Etsy sellers in all sorts of field who can benefit from mock-ups to showcase their work in a realistic way. So What's a Mock-up? A mock-up means taking an image, such as a frame, mug, book, or t-shirt (often with beautiful props alongside it!) and putting your digital design right onto that image to show how your designs or creations will look in real life. Mock-ups are perfect for T-shirt designers or drinkware designers who don't want to do a photo shoot for every new design they create. They use their digital design (without even making the product) and place it onto the beautifully styled photography scene. Not all Mock-ups are Made Equal Sarah looked around at the styled stock photos currently available and realized there was a big gap for sellers who create more unique items. There aren't nearly as many mock-ups for products that don't go into a frame. Mason Jar Mug sellers, glass sellers, mug sellers, and other vinyl decal sellers didn't have as many beautiful photos to choose from, and if they did find a great photo, they weren't sure how to get their designs into the photo and have them look natural. One great way Sarah researched this niche and knew which problem to solve was by participating and listening in many Facebook groups. Sarah joined many groups for Etsy sellers and noticed that 5-10 people every day were asking about mock-ups. They'd wonder, "How do I make a mock-up? What are mock-ups good for? Who can find styled stock photos that fit my product?" Sarah began solving their problems and answering their questions by recording Youtube tutorial videos and posting them on her blog. Finally, Sarah created a Mock-up Design Essentials Course. The course has short videos that add up to about an hour of tutorials along with photoshop template files that have pre-styled scenes. The Differentiator Sarah differentiates herself from other styled stock photo sellers in two key ways. She offers tutorial videos so that a seller can turn any lovely stock photo into a smart object where their designs can be easily overlaid. So, they're empowered to be as creative and unique as they want to be! Sarah's templates all include smart objects, so the colors and placement of the objects in her scenes can be altered. You can't do this with a regular stock photo! What Makes an Object Smart? So... we're pretty sure these objects in photoshop don't have an IQ of 145. What makes them smart?A smart object turns a layer in Photoshop into something that can easily accept a new design element without changing its basic structure. (Sounds a little confusing, right?! It's easier to give an example than to talk about smart objects in theory.) Here we go! If you have a styled scene full of cute little desk accessories and you want to lay your printable (pretty piece of paper in digital form) on top of a desk, this is very tricky to do because the angle of the image will be quite different than your flat-rectangled printable. You'll have to stretch, tweak, and mess with Photoshop for a while to get your printable design to look just right laying on the desk in the photo. But that's not the case if you turn that piece of paper into a smart object. THEN, adding your printable design to the desk goes like this: Double click on the smart object layer in Photoshop A new tab will open up. You'll see a blank rectangle on this tab. You can past your printable design onto this rectangle. Hit save and close the tab. Your printable is automatically placed into the image on the table at exactly the right angle. No weird distortions necessary! Smart objects are perfect in this instance for two reasons. Not everyone knows how to stretch and distort the perspective of an image to make it look natural in a photo. Smart objects allow you to work much faster. You can take 100 of your fabulous designs and plug them into your beautiful styled photo scene in no time. Voila! 100 new listings are ready to go in your Etsy shop, and to your customer, they look just as they would if they were photographed in real life. An added benefit to using smart objects: You can also use one smart across multiple Photoshop files. So then, if that object needs to be changed, Photoshop will automatically change all the other files that include that object for you. Again, let's use an example so this makes more sense! If you're designing a website with a team of people and everyone is using the same header. (It's a smart object) Then one day someone says "we're going to change the header color" The team doesn't have to go in and edit 100 files that all include that header. They simply change the smart object for the header, and all the other files are automatically updated. (Is it just me or does that sound amazing?!) To create a smart object, take that layer you want to turn into a smart object and save it as a.psb (This is the extension for a smart object versus .psd which is the typical photoshop file extension.)Now, when that object is altered and saved, it's updated everywhere it's used. For more help, you can check out all of Sarah's free video tutorials right here. (If you're wondering if Adobe is worth the price, you should know that you can get a 1 month free trial, and after that you can get Photoshop and Lightroom for $10/month. We're not affiliates, we just use Adobe products regularly. Check out our interview with Kim VanSlambrook to hear how she uses Lightroom to save her loads of time when she takes real product photos.) Photoshop Perks So how does Photoshop stack up to the other great photo editing tools out there, like Canva and Picmonkey? Sarah hasn't used Picmonkey in a while, but Beth Anne says adding your own fonts is easy, and arranging transparent pngs to get the perfect graphic design is a cinch. Canva is great for typography. They have so many creative templates that you can plug your headlines into. They also have social media image sizes ready to go so you can save time. Photoshop has some unique features that you can't find anywhere else. For one thing, their color correction tools are powerful, and you can color correct just one aspect of your photo while leaving everything else the same. Working with layers in photoshop also means you can customize which aspect of your photo you edit, and you can shift layers around (like the png overlays I use in picmonkey). Photoshop has powerful editing tools for other aspects of a photo as well, such as smoothing out blemishes, adding shadows, or erasing something. Adobe products also work nicely together, so if you use Illustrator for graphic design, you can drag layers over into Photoshop for more editing. If you're not sold yet, Smart Objects will put you over the edge. No other photo editing tool on the market can so quickly and easily take your design and place it perfectly on the right object in a photo. Help for Photoshop Newbies Sarah Korhnak mentioned in the interview that she probably wouldn't give Photoshop a try, because it just seemed way too complicated, and Picmonkey works great for her! But... she may have been persuaded. Sarah Guillot says the beauty of Photoshop is that you don't have to know how to use every single feature in order to benefit from the program. Sarah's course teaches sellers just what they need to know. You can get started and save yourself tons of time while simply ignoring the 100 other tools that you don't need at the moment. For her course, Sarah focuses on helping sellers get their designs out the Silhouette program and into Photoshop, how to add those design to your smart object, and how to change colors, shift objects around in the mock-up scene. Silhouette Studio One of the most common groups of people who can benefit from Photoshop Mock-ups are those designers who use a Silhouette. What exactly is Silhouette, and what can it do? Silhouette Studio is the name of the design program that accompanies Silhouette printers. The Silhouette Cameo is a printer that can print 12 by 12 inch sheets of vinyl designs, stickers, or other items. The Silhouette Portrait is a smaller printer that can work with letter-sized sheets of material.Sarah says that Silhouette Studio tries to mimic Adobe a little bit. She says it's not too difficult to figure out the basics of designing with Silhouette, but even as an experienced designer she often turns to Youtube to learn a new trick! A Silhouette costs about $200 to $250 for the machine and a few tools to print designs. Sunshine Sticker Co. One of the things we love about Brilliant Business Moms are the genuine friendships we make with brilliant women who are growing businesses. Our private Facebook group is such a positive, encouraging place, and for many women, it can be a jumping off point for developing their own masterminds or partnerships. Sarah Guillot and Ashley Monda met through our private Facebook group and teamed up with a few other women to form a Mastermind. They hold weekly Google Hangouts to encourage each other. When Sarah came up with her idea to help Etsy sellers with photography mock-ups, she turned to Ashley for feedback, because Ashley uses her Silhouette often to make party supplies. After getting to know each other well, they both came up with the idea to get into the planner sticker market. (Planner stickers are huge these days!) Sarah could bring her design skills to the table, and Ashley could print and ship the stickers. The more these ladies researched their new idea, the more excited they got. They got together on Google hangout and said, "Wait... are we really going to do this?" The answer...."Yes!" Sarah and Ashley have never met in person, but their planner sticker business, Sunshine Sticker Co. has already launched! Sarah says she already knew Ashley well and developed a friendship with her. She knows all about her family, her business, and she knew Ashley had a great work ethic. They both live in Washington state, so in-person meetings are possible down the road. We're so excited for Ashley and Sarah and can't wait to see how their business grows! It's only a Season Sarah is in an interesting place right now when it comes to combining business and motherhood. She's still working full-time, and she's also working like crazy to grow her new businesses. She doesn't want to work 40 hours a week for someone else forever, but.... right now she's working 80 hours per week trying to grow her biz and work her day job! Sarah is often up past midnight working hard on her business. She says it's a lot of juggling, and some days it just feels like way too much to take on. But Sarah is keeping the end goal in mind. It's just a season, and working 80 hours per week isn't the way her life will run forever. (You got this, Sarah! We can't wait to see you kiss that day job goodbye!) Sarah with her adorable family. The Preferred Podcast for 5-7 Year-Olds! This funny mom moment made our day! Sarah says she listens to a lot of podcasts while she drives her girls to school. Among her favorites are Pat Flynn, Flipped Lifestyle, and Brilliant Business Moms. She didn't realize how much her girls were paying attention to what was said until one of them asked if she could start a business someday. Sarah said, "Sure!" Here comes the best part: Sarah turned on Pat Flynn one day and her daughter said, "I want to listen to that other podcast ..you know ..the mom podcast!" Pat Flynn, we love you, but apparently Brilliant Business Moms is a little more popular among the elementary school crowd :) (Pssst - that's not the first time we've been requested by little kiddos. Cheri Tracy's girls love us too. How fun!) Stay in Touch with Sarah! SarahDesign.comInstagram: @SarahDesignMockupsSunshineStickerCo.comInstagram: @SunshineStickerCo

The second in our "How-To-Be-More-Grateful" sermon series. Neil shares his thoughts on the practical practice of giving thanks.Readings:Genesis 18: 1-15The Lord appeared to Abraham[a] by the oaks[b] of Mamre, as he sat at the entrance of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He looked up and saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent entrance to meet them, and bowed down to the ground. 3 He said, “My lord, if I find favor with you, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 Let me bring a little bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” 6 And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Make ready quickly three measures[c] of choice flour, knead it, and make cakes.” 7 Abraham ran to the herd, and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to the servant, who hastened to prepare it. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree while they ate.9 They said to him, “Where is your wife Sarah?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 Then one said, “I will surely return to you in due season, and your wife Sarah shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent entrance behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have grown old, and my husband is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too wonderful for the Lord? At the set time I will return to you, in due season, and Sarah shall have a son.” 15 But Sarah denied, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. He said, “Oh yes, you did laugh.”Accidents of Birth by William MeredithSpared by a car or airplane crash orcured of malignancy, people lookaround with new eyes at a newlypraiseworthy world, blinking eyes like these.For I’ve been brought back again from thefine silt, the mud where our atoms liedown for long naps. And I’ve also beenpardoned miraculously for yearsby the lava of chance which runs downthe world’s gullies, silting us back.Here I am, brought back, set up, not yethappened away.                     But it’s not this randomlife only, throwing its sensualastonishments upside down onthe bloody membranes behind my eyeballs,not just me being here again, oldneeder, looking for someone to need,but you, up from the clay yourself,as luck would have it, and inchingover the same little segment of earth-ball, in the same little eon, tomeet in a room, alive in our skins,and the whole galaxy gaping thereand the centuries whining like gnats—you, to teach me to see it, to seeit with you, and to offer somebodyuncomprehending, impudent thanks.Blessed Their Hearts by Richard NewmanAt Steak ‘n Shake I learned that if you add“Bless their hearts” after their names, you can saywhatever you want about them and it’s OK.My son, bless his heart, is an idiot,she said. He rents storage space for his kids’toys—they’re only one and three years old!I said, my father, bless his heart, has turnedinto a sentimental old fool. He getsweepy when he hears my daughter’s greetingon our voice mail. Before our Steakburgers camesomeone else blessed her office mate’s heart,then, as an afterthought, the jealous heartsof the entire anthropology department.We bestowed blessings on many a heartthat day. I even blessed my ex-wife’s heart.Our waiter, bless his heart, would not be gettingmuch tip, for which, no doubt, he’d bless our hearts.In a week it would be Thanksgiving,and we would each sit with our respectivefamilies, counting our blessings and blessingthe hearts of family members as only familydoes best. Oh, bless us all, yes, bless us, pleasebless us and bless our crummy little hearts.

Adnan once issued a challenge to Sarah. He told her to test the state’s timeline of the murder by driving from Woodlawn High School to Best Buy in 21 minutes. It can’t be done, he said. So Sarah and Dana take up the challenge, and raise him one: They try to recreate the entire route that Jay said he and Adnan took on January 13th, 1999.  

Title of message:  Faithful or Faithless   What do you want out of your marriage? (Genesis 12:1-2) “The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing."   (Hebrews 11:8) By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.   God will often call us to a life of blessing and the only way there is the faith road.   During seasons of required faith:   1.    We can fall victim to fear.   (Genesis 12:11-13) As (Abram) was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."   April 10, 2007   God has been working in our lives for the last 18 months or so preparing us for a new place in ministry. We have been called to plant a church in Lebanon, Indiana, a life-giving church called Freedom. We are so excited and can't wait to see what God will do with our obedience. It's quite scary, but we know we are doing what He wants us to do. 2.    We can get ahead of God.   (Genesis 16:1-2) Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, "The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her."   3.    We can give up on God's promise.   (Genesis 17:17) Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?"   (Genesis 18:12-13) So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master is old, will I now have this pleasure?" Then the Lord said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I really have a child, now that I am old?'   (Genesis 18:14) Is anything too hard for the Lord?”   (Romans 4:19-21) Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead — since he was about a hundred years old — and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.   (Proverbs 19:21) Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails. 

Have YOU heard of little c antibodies? Sarah gives us information and inspiration as she shares her story with this rare condition. She fought for the redemptive home birth of her dreams while caring for herself and taking the highest precautions for her baby. Sarah built the supportive birth team she didn't have the first time around and made birthing choices that helped her feel the most in control. Her HBAC with a nuchal hand was a whirlwind and a story we know you'll love!Additional linksThe VBAC Link on InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsMamasteFit Childbirth EducationFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan here with you today and we are really excited about our guest today. I was just reading her bio, and then I was reading a little bit about her and her births, and then I had this “Aha!” moment. I am like, “Wait a minute. Are you the one that we were talking to before you had your baby?” And she was like, “Yes, I was.”And so, we have this really fun story, kind of a little established relationship I guess, before the birth and after the birth. It is always fun to be able to talk to people that have reached out to us before they have their baby and then hear from them after they have their baby. I am so excited to hear the full story.But before I tell you what made her story stand out to me, I'm going to read a little bit of her bio that I thought was really cute. If you can hear my three-year-old in the background, she escaped from quarantine upstairs. My husband will come down soon and rescue me from her.But Sarah‘s bio is really, really cute. She said she is a working mom of two tiny humans and two not-so-tiny cats. She has a quirky sense of humor and an affinity for superhero movies. That's where I was like, “Okay.” We have got to talk about this because superhero movies-- I really love superhero movies now, but before I got married, I didn't even know the difference between Batman and Superman. Now I know and I have a very strong opinion about Batman. We won't go into that though. But I married a geek and he is all about the superheroes, and the comic books, and everything. And so, I've come to really love the superhero movies and all of those things. It's a sentimental part of my life. So that made me really happy. She's part of the American Sign Language community. Her oldest is hard of hearing, so everybody in her family is learning American Sign Language. That is really neat. When I was younger, I was obsessed with sign language. I went to a class and I had a book I was learning and teaching my brother and sister how to do all the signs and stuff like that, but I haven't done any of that for-- oh my gosh, it has been way more than 20 years which really makes me feel old to say that. But anyway, the part of her story that-- actually, before we do that, should we do a Review of the Week, Meagan?Review of the WeekMeagan: Sure. Sure.Julie: Yeah. Let's do a Review of the Week and then we will talk about the part of her story that made me excited. Yeah, go ahead.Meagan: OK. This is from Jacqueline Lee and she was on Instagram. She said, “Just found you and will be keeping you. Hoping to VBAC with our second babe whenever they come along. I would love to share my stories when that time comes. I have been listening to your podcast and love how informative and diverse they are. Our first was born in Paraguay when we were teaching. She was breech and so I had a C-section. Hoping for a vertex baby to be able to have a VBAC, but I did labor with our first until an 8. It was a wild story full of funny cultural differences and language barriers.”I love that. I remember when she wrote us that we were like, “Oh, you're so sweet. Can we put you on our review?” And she was like, “Yes, please do.” We are so excited that she was able to share her review and we hope that when the time comes, she will be able to rock her VBAC and have an amazing story and then hopefully, one day, be on the podcast as well.Julie: That's awesome. I am excited. It just makes me happy when people come full circle and share they were listening to the podcast and then share their stories on the podcast. That is fun because we have been doing this VBAC Link thing for-- oh my gosh, it will be three years in May. It's really fun because when we first started out, I was literally stalking hashtags on Instagram to find people who had a VBAC to share their stories on the podcast. Now we have way more submissions than we can even record. And to have people who started out with us before they even got pregnant and listening to the podcast, and taking our courses, and sharing their story, it all is just really exciting to me.Sarah's storyJulie: All right. Let me tell you. This is the thing that you have all been waiting for. I know you have been holding your breath for the last few minutes just waiting to see what could possibly get me so excited about her story. And it's little c antibodies. If you don't know what that means, you are not the only one because Sarah reached out to us on Instagram Messenger, I think it was, asking if we had heard of any VBAC stories or VBAC information about how to VBAC with little c antibodies and Maegan and I were like, “What are little c antibodies?”Meagan: Yeah. I remember because I thought, “Isn't there a big C?”Julie: Yeah. Big C and little c. Meagan: But I've only heard of big.Julie: And we are like, “Is that a capital? Is that like a capitalized? What is a big C? What is a little c?” So we dug in and we found some research on it. It's really an interesting thing because it's not something that you hear about very often, but we are going to learn a lot about it in this episode. And before I go any more into telling how excited I am to hear the story, we should probably actually hear the story. So Sarah, why don't you go ahead and share your stories with us?Sarah: Hello. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So obviously, being a VBAC mom, I had a first child that was born via Cesarean. She was supposed to be a birth center baby and I was just having all kinds of trouble with back labor and not being able to cope with everything. I don't think I did as well preparing for her birth and it was a lot. I felt very overwhelmed and I think my husband was doing the best he could, but looking back, I keep saying, I really wish I would've had some doula support there. I think that's one of my biggest regrets. I actually ended up transferring to the birth center about halfway through my pregnancy because I knew I wanted something that was a little bit less hospital-y. Hospitals make me nervous and it's just kind of how I am. Unfortunately, I did make that call. I think it was one of those 2:00 a.m., overwhelmed, not dilating any, and then going to the hospital. It was a lot.So I labored pretty much all day. I got an epidural and then I didn't have a very great supportive doctor. He just came in and he was like, “Oh, this is what we are going to do” and “Oh, I broke your water by the way. It already happened.” So just not a lot of consent. Things like that that I know now that I want and need as a mom, and as a mom in labor for sure. Once it came down to it, I think I pushed for about three hours and the doctor was like, “Well, baby is stuck. We are going to do a C-section now.” I didn't get a whole lot of information about what that meant or what that would mean for me moving forward. It was just kind of happening in that moment.I even remember the anesthesiologist. God bless her. She was amazing. She was the only person that was walking me through what was going on, helping me stay calm, and she goes, “Well, the doc is going to put some pressure to make sure you are numb.” And the doc goes, “Oh, I've already started cutting.” So like I said, I just didn't have a really great experience with my first being born. And then on top of that coming home, I didn't know how to care for myself postpartum. We had a lot of family stuff going on so I didn't have any family support, and then I ended up developing both postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression that went undiagnosed for probably about three months before I realized that I needed to start reaching out and getting help.As a result of that, I started looking around-- so that was about five years ago. I started looking around to the birth community as a whole to see what information was out there. I found out what a VBAC was and that's how I found you guys. It was just in the process of finding out what my resources were. Moving forward to the start of the pandemic last year. I found out I was pregnant and then a few days after that, my work went to remote, so I was working from home in my first trimester with a four-year-old. It was nonsense. It was about as fun as it sounds. I always say, “I love my kid and I love my job, but I do not like it when they go together.”So I knew I wanted to find a different kind of provider. I started looking around in my area and I found a midwife that would support a home birth. One of my first questions to her was, “Do you support VBACs?” She said, “Absolutely.” And she said it just like that. “Absolutely.” We had a wonderful conversation just talking me through how many VBACs she has been a part of through the years. A lot of my first visits were on the phone and everything was weird and everybody was working remote. I told her I was concerned because I had a couple of miscarriages and she was like, “No problem. We can be proactive and let's monitor your blood levels.” During one of those first rounds of bloodwork, we found out about the little c antibodies. I almost immediately called her and I am like, “What is this? Does this mean I can't have my home birth? Am I going to have to go back to the hospital?” Honestly, I was kind of freaking out and she said, “Listen. Let me do some homework and we are going to see what that means.”She decided that we wanted to make sure we were checking on this very well. So I drove-- I am down in Fort Myers. I drove up to Tampa General and that is about a 3-3.5 hour drive and I talked to a specialist. So she is a geneticist. I don't know. She does stuff with blood work. So I sat down with this lady and she is going through it. The best way that I can describe what she was trying to tell me is, “Your blood cells have different facets on them kind of like a diamond. It's similar to the Rh. Normally when we hear about blood stuff and a pregnant mama, it is that Rh factor. So that, we have heard of. That is fine, but this is a different part of that same cell, but a different facet.”It was very confusing to be quite honest. But she explained that when they test my blood, they are looking for those antibodies because my husband has an antigen. So he has got something on one of his blood cells that my blood cells don't like and as a result, my body creates these antibodies to try to attack it and the really crazy thing is it's almost exclusive to VBAC moms or second-time moms, but more commonly VBAC moms because when they were doing the incision, some of baby's blood, some of my blood may have crossed over and that would cause my body to start reacting even way back five years ago when my first daughter was born. It was crazy. Just the thought that that's been in my body this whole time and I didn't know about it. So that was kind of cool but kind of scary.She said that the levels that they found were very low. And it's just-- you know, “you have got a very low level of this kind of antibody that is freaking out on your baby, so we are going to keep an eye on it and as your pregnancy progresses, if it starts to rise, if that level starts to get more concentrated in your blood, then we are going to have to have a deeper discussion about getting baby out sooner and maybe not going to full-term. Are we going to have to have baby before 40 weeks? I don't know. We will keep an eye on it.” That sort of thing.So every time I went to a visit with my midwife, we had to do a blood draw. It was annoying, but ultimately, throughout my entire pregnancy, that level never changed for me. So thankfully it wasn't anything that I had to really do anything about, but it was always that little worry in the back of my mind. It was just frustrating because I had such an uneventful pregnancy before and I just wanted that again especially in the middle of a pandemic. Everything is freaking out in the world, why can't I just have an easy pregnancy? Then, we go in for the midway through ultrasound. I went back up to Tampa General. My wife here recommended it because she always says, “If there's anything to find, they're really good. They are going to be the ones to catch it.” Tampa General is one of the best hospitals in the state and their maternal-fetal medicine is top-notch, so I felt good about going up there. I've got family up there anyway, so we just made a visit out of it. While we were there for the ultrasound, obviously, I have to go in by myself because COVID. And so, my poor husband is out in the parking lot with the one bar of Wi-Fi signal trying to do a Zoom meeting with me to be able to see or hear anything. He's got a few minutes to see or talk to me and then they had a rule about how we can't record and we can't have the phone or a video through the whole visit. It was kind of crazy.So for the most part, I am in there by myself. I am trying to communicate with my husband on a weird connection and it was frustrating. But anyway, so during the first 20-week ultrasound, they go, “Well, we are looking and we are not seeing that other kidney on baby,” and I go, “Okay.” The doctor was very reassuring and he said, “Well, it could be in a weird spot. It could be that we are just not seeing it because baby is in a weird position, so we are going to have you come back in a month.” I was, again, just frustrated because we are in this crazy thing and just-- really? Why me? Why my baby? Why all the stuff? So we made plans to come back in a month. But I definitely know at that point I needed two things. Number one, I needed to check in with my mental health counselor. She specializes in mom stuff, birth-related things, mom-related things. She is awesome. And so, I was able to talk to her and talk through some of the things that were going on. And then number two, I knew that I needed a doula. Why on earth I waited so long, I have no idea, but I did find my doula around the 20-week mark. She was able to start checking in with me every week because I knew that if I was going into a birth that potentially had any kind of complications, I needed all the support that I could get. I followed up with them as much as I could as much as I needed to and tried to identify in myself if I felt like I was stressing out too much or if I was letting things overtake my mind too much just to know to check in with my doula, check in with my counselor, and I think that made a big difference trying to manage things throughout pregnancy. We even got a plan in place so if we did have to transfer to a hospital, having a backpack that I could keep in my closet. We talked about, “If it is in your closet, you don't even have to look at it, but that piece in the back of your mind that knows it is there will feel good about that and you won't be so stressed.” I am very glad that I did that. It really helped and I was able to have that calm reassurance. So as I am going through, I get to the end of pregnancy. We are still monitoring this little c blood thing, and we still can't find a kidney on baby, and on top of that, now I am measuring ahead. At 36 weeks, I was measuring around 42 or 43 weeks, so I went on a low-carb, low-sugar diet. It may have been before 36 weeks. It felt like a lifetime of no sugar and no carbs. When you're pregnant, all you want is pizza and you can't have it and props to all the mamas that do have gestational diabetes because that is so hard and thankfully, I didn't have gestational diabetes. I just had to eat like I did. Baby kept growing and growing and growing, and we were worried that if baby was going to be too big if there was going to be a sugar thing on top of everything else, that could be a problem. We wanted to make sure that the fluid levels in my uterus were good because that could mean that the kidney is working or not working depending upon what's going on there. So my midwife and I really started having some conversations about, “Do we want to go past that due date?” Legally, it's maybe measuring a certain size, like in the state of Florida if the baby is too big, she is not able to do a home birth for me. So I was freaking out, calling my therapist, doing all of the things. I spent the week of Thanksgiving in acupuncture, pumping, doing my Spinning Babies®, walking the curb, doing the whole list of things. I must have spent at least a good hour of my pregnancy upside down on my couch, I think.Meagan: Oh my gosh. How much did the baby have to measure up before they disqualified you? Do you remember?Sarah: I don't remember. I want to say it was 10 pounds.Meagan: Wow.Sarah: But I think that's if they measured on an ultrasound and she tries to do as few ultrasounds as she can because she very firmly believes your body is not going to make a baby that is too big for you, you know?Meagan: Yeah, Mhmm.Sarah: She supported me as much as she could, but because we had to monitor all of these other things, it was like, “Oh great. Now, we are finding out too much.”Meagan: I know, yeah.Sarah: Yeah. So Thanksgiving, we are doing all the things. That put me at 39 weeks. We had talked about doing the famous midwives brew. I took that on, I think it was Monday night of that first week after Thanksgiving and I started having contractions, getting all excited, and then everything completely fizzled out. I was like, “No!” But at least my body was doing something which felt good because before, with my older daughter, we went two weeks beyond. Nothing was happening. I thought I was going to be pregnant forever. You know, all that stuff. So I was like, “All right. Well, at least my body is gearing up for something.” Later that week, I started noticing I was leaking a little bit and I wasn't, you know, is it pee? Is it amniotic fluid? The world may never know, but thankfully, my midwife has a way to find out with that little stick thing. And so, she was like, “Check the stick. See if it is amniotic fluid. We talked about doing a lift and tuck. Apparently, in addition to everything else, I have a weird-shaped uterus that has a forward tilt which is probably why my first daughter was in such a terrible position, and I had back labor because she wasn't able to move into a good position. But I know that now. So one more chiropractor visit, one more visit to the acupuncturist, and the midwife said, “Let's see what is going on, but if you have more leaking, let me know.” That was Thursday. Yeah. So Thursday, I had my visit with my midwife. We talked about all of that and then that night, I had a little bit more leaking and she said, “Okay. Is it a little? Is it a lot?” I was like, “It is just a little.” And she goes, “Okay. We are going to have you try the brew one more time. Definitely call me because now that we have confirmed that your waters have started rupturing, we are on a time clock in terms of having the best chance for a VBAC. We don't want to have a long leak and drain out all the fluid, and then get you into a bad spot where baby can't maneuver.” So we did our last-minute chores, made sure my daughter had a bag packed. I went to bed as soon as I could. That night, around 11:30 or so, I woke up with contractions. I'm excited, trying to stay calm, use the bathroom, got my heating pad out. I was trying really hard to hold off on all of my pain management stuff just because before, I didn't have anything and now I didn't want to waste it all at the very beginning because I had a 30-hour labor the first time around and that's what I was gearing up for. My brain was telling me, “You are going to have a 30-hour labor. It's going to be long. Hold off as long as you can.” So I went back to sleep and I woke up a few hours later, around 2:00, and I felt a pop and a gush. My water definitely had broken. That was weird because I didn't have that the first time. Like I said, the doctor broke my water the first time around. So I was like, “All right. I've got to clean this up.” I'm trying to let my husband sleep and be quiet, but I am stumbling around because I'm having contractions and it is dark. I'm tripping on things. And so, I get to the bathroom and I'm trying to get settled, and then I'm like, “Oh yeah, the lift and tuck.” So I am having to lift on my belly and tuck my pelvis through every contraction. Normally, I think they recommend that you have someone else do that. It is very uncomfortable. It hurts, but I knew after those conversations with my midwife after talking to my chiropractor, they were like, “This is going to be what you need to do to help.” So I had that in mind and I felt the minute she shifted, the second that she shifted into position. It was crazy. I am like, “Okay. Now we are going.” It was around that time that things really picked up and I yelled out to my husband, I am like, “Get up.” And so, he wakes up and he was fumbling around in the dark. I think he knocked something over. But he calls the doula and she was like, “All right. I am on my way.”And then, he called the midwife. Because my contractions were not, I think-- what is the formula? It is 4-1-1. So four minutes apart, one minute long, one minute-- I don't remember. Whatever her thing was. It wasn't quite to that point. She said, “Keep me posted, but we are going to observe her for a little longer and keep me posted. I've got my stuff ready. I can be on my way.” She's on standby. So he is coming over and he's like, “All right. You have to get out of the bathroom,” because our bathroom is this narrow tunnel. There is a wall on one side and I think I'm stuck on the other side. It's just long, so no one could have gone behind me really well or anything. He was like, “You have got to get out of here,” and I was like, “I don't want to.” So he is trying to push me out of the bathroom a little bit and I was able to crawl out in between contractions. I made it to the foot of our bed and I just camped out there. I was like, “This is as far as I can make it.” He was like, “You're fine.”So then, my doula arrived. At this point, I have no clue what the actual timeline is, but I know she got there pretty quickly, my doula did. She starts helping put up the birth pool and get the hose set up. She's checking on me and he's checking on me. I remember she came in and she's doing hip compressions and I'm trying to move around a little bit. I think mostly I was on all fours and I was just swaying my hips. I tried getting up where my forearms were resting on the bed and I am like, “Nope. I can't do that.”I just was doing my best to keep on keeping on and using that low breath, or the low “ahhhh”-- the voice thing that they tell you to do. That was super helpful because just doing that, I knew-- and after taking, because I took three classes all in all. I did The VBAC Link course, I did another one with Mamastefit. She was on here at some point, I think, last year and she was talking about the physiology of birth. Her class is really good.Meagan: Mhmm. We love Gina. We love her.Julie: Yes. We love her.Sarah: Gina, her stuff is really good. Anybody who wants to know the physiology of what your body is doing, her course really nails that. And then, I did another course in-person with my doula service. Theirs was Birthing From Within based. She talked about the vocalizations, and movements, and things like that, but one of the things that really stuck with me was contractions are going to be a minute. It's not going to be five minutes. It's not going to be ten minutes. You can get through a minute. You can do that. We practiced holding the ice in your hand for a minute. Being able to practice that and having it in my head was so realistic. I think it really helped me mentally as I'm in the moment trying to go through. I remember I was trying so hard to talk to my doula because I don't think I wanted her-- she was rubbing my back or something and I don't even think I could tell her, “I don't like that.” I was so in the zone. At one point, I did manage to tell her, “I feel like pushing.” I was so scared because, with my daughter, my oldest, I felt like pushing, but I was not anywhere near ready to push which apparently, again, was a sign of being in the wrong position. I was scared that that was happening again.She said, “Okay. Well, where is the midwife? Hubby was like, “She told me to follow up and that was an hour ago.” So we call the midwife, she's on the phone, and then in the middle of that phone call, I go, “I think there is something in between my legs.” Tara, my doula, Tara comes over and she goes, “Yep. There is baby's head.”Julie: Oh my gosh!Meagan: Oh my heck!Sarah: Yeah.Julie: What?!Sarah: And so, I am like, “Okay.” She puts the midwife on speakerphone. My midwife is literally in her van coming my way and she goes, “Okay, so what is Sarah doing? What position is she in? What do you see?” And so, my doula takes over as the unofficial person in charge. I remember my husband telling me later, he was like, “I wanted to catch the baby, but Tara said ‘No.'”Meagan: Oh really?Sarah: Because she has been to several births. She ended up-- I think two weeks before that, one of the other moms that she supported, the same thing happened where the baby was born before the same midwife got there, so she caught that baby too.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Julie: Oh my gosh.Sarah: She is amazing. I love her. She's just an amazing person and she took over so well. But she comes over and my husband at least thought to turn on his camera on his phone so we have this very dark video, but she coached me through it. I hear my midwife on the phone going, “All right. She can push.” And so then, Tara's like, “Well, push, push, push, push and my baby shot out like a little torpedo. She was so fast. Her hand was up by her face, so I had an unassisted VBAC, HBAC because I was at home, with a nuchal hand. I just roared her out like a fierce lion mama. It was great. I remember the first thing I said was, “I eff-ing did it.”Julie: That is awesome. Sarah: The feeling of such relief after so much worry, and so much planning, and so much, just all of it coming to fruition in this weird moment at 5:30 in the morning and my poor midwife wasn't even there. There she was. I turned around and I started to look at her and I go, “Wait. What is it? It's a girl!” And so, I got to be the one this time to say that she was a girl and that was so important to me, but I didn't know it was until that moment. You know?Julie: Yeah. Aww.Meagan: I love it.Sarah: Yeah. After that, they tried to get me up on the bed and we are trying to get my placenta out. It kind of got stuck. So my midwife is trying to tell my doula, “All right. Give her some traction. Let's try nipple stimulation. What's going on here?” I was losing a lot of blood. It was probably 45 minutes later, so I had lost a significant amount of blood. I have a couple of pictures of me and baby and I am looking pasty in those pictures. When my midwife got there, she started going to work really quickly and she had her team. It was like a whirlwind of people doing stuff. It was awesome. I know at one point they were trying to figure out where they could hang an IV bag and I'm like, “There is a hanger right there and there's a flashlight behind the TV.” Like, I am directing things that are happening in my house. How I was so with it, I have no idea. They quickly decided that I needed some more support than they could give just because of how much time had passed, so they did end up calling an ambulance which, prior to all of the prep work that I had done with my therapist, I will tell you that that very well would have given me some major anxiety attack before. But I was able to roll with it. EMS got me up, got me downstairs, got me outside. They asked me questions. I somehow remembered my husband‘s telephone number at some point during all of that which I don't think I know that right now. So the fact that I knew that after I had lost half my blood volume was kind of a miracle. The hospital did have to go in and manually remove my placenta which was awful. I think that was worse than giving birth. I remember in all of that, I looked over at a nurse and I said, “I need you to tell me what's going on because that's going to keep me calm.” The fact that I was with it enough to be able to ask for that was pretty cool, but the fact that I knew that I needed that, again, because of all the prep work that I had done with my therapist mentally and emotionally. Knowing that I had somebody that could walk me through what was going on just helped so incredibly much. They got me patched up. They got some blood in me and I was able to tell them, “Hey, I have this little c thing. You might want to know about that when you are matching my blood type.” The doctor was able to verify all of that with my medical records and make sure that I got the most specified blood for my needs to help me get back up to speed. So that was really cool because I knew that having that information and being able to provide that to the doctor on a whim, I know that made a difference in me being able to recover quickly because it was just going to help. You know? Whether it made a huge difference physically to me, I don't know, but I think mentally it was like, “I am empowered and I have information about my body and about myself.” That was cool.So, second-degree tear. Three units of blood. I stayed at the hospital for a few days. But she came like a little whirlwind and she is the coolest kid let me tell ya.Homebirth midwivesJulie: I love that so much. There are so many things I want to highlight in your story besides the cool little c antibody educational piece. But I want to speak a little bit about home birth because people are afraid of home birth. It's definitely not for everybody, but there's a misunderstanding that midwives don't have as much medical knowledge and there's a higher chance that your baby will die, or you will die, or hemorrhage like in your case, right? You were hemorrhaging and I just want you to know that as a doula, and it sounds like your midwife and doula did the same thing, but as a doula, I have seen home birth transfers. These midwives that have attended hundreds and hundreds, and sometimes thousands of home births, are very in tune, and very on point, and very, very particular about all of the details around birth. It was really funny because when you were telling your story with the nuchal hand and then after birth, you were losing a lot of blood and they called the ambulance and everything, I attended a birth just like that, except the midwife got there before the baby was born, a couple of years ago. It wasn't even two or three minutes after the baby was born, the midwife was like, “Let's get EMS on the phone.” She was putting pressure inside and outside of the mom's uterus to stop the bleeding and then the ambulance got there. I was arranging for her son to go another way and then her husband was arranging things. It was just so seamless, and the midwife was so calm, and we transferred care. It was the same thing. The doctor had to go inside and manually remove the placenta, and then she had to have two D&Cs, actually two more in the coming weeks to get the rest of her placenta out. I guess the best way to describe it from my point of view is beautiful chaos. It was an emergency, but man, this midwife was just so skilled and trained. They don't take chances. They are highly educated. They have, depending on if they are a CPM, a Certified Professional Midwife, or a licensed midwife, and you can be both in some states, they carry the same drugs like Methergine and Pitocin to stop bleeding. They carry antibiotics to administer if you are GBS positive. They have IV fluids that they can do. They are so trained and skilled that if an emergency happens, they are going to be able to transfer your care to the hospital. They're going to know the things that they need to do to help you before you get to the hospital. Guess what else? There's this really cool system, I forget what the acronym is, but as a student midwife, I am familiar with all these things. But there's this information database where midwives can share their information with the hospital they are transferring to while they are en route to the hospital. They're on the phone with the hospital so that when you get there, the hospital is ready to receive you and they don't have to ask any questions. They just pick up where the homebirth midwife left off. I think that's just something that people don't really realize happens. They think, “Oh my gosh. If there is an emergency, we are going to die when we're at home.” Granted, in extremely rare cases, things like that do happen just like they happen in the hospital, but at no higher rate as far as maternal and infant death goes. So I think that's really important to note. I wanted to spotlight that because, well, nobody wants a home birth transfer whether before or after the baby is born. When there are emergencies these homebirth midwives are amazing. They are amazing.Sarah: Yes. That was something that I had talked to her in-depth about before because I had such anxiety with the hospital. I remember at one point, I think it was when she came for my home check-up visit at however far along in the pregnancy and I said, “Hey. I am really nervous about if we have to transfer to the hospital, but I know that if I need to, I trust you on that. I am not going to ask to go to the hospital,” because I had asked when I was at the birth center with my oldest daughter. I transferred because I wanted to because I was having trouble and I wanted an epidural. So I wanted to make it clear to her to say, “If I'm going to transfer it is because I know that you need me to transfer.” I am putting that trust in her and she said all the same things that you just said. She was like, “Well, we have this and we have that, but if we need to transfer, I have that on speed dial,” kind of thing. I am sure no matter what state you're in, there are all kinds of rules and regulations and whatnot, but just being able to trust your provider whether it is a home birth midwife or a doctor in a hospital. If you can trust the person that you are literally placing your life in their hands to have them make sure that you are okay, I think that's key too.Julie: Yeah. I agree. I think most importantly is birthing with a provider In a location where you feel comfortable with and having the trust in them and having conversations like that with your midwife or your doctor whether you are in or out of the hospital. I think that those are all important conversations. Meagan, you have just been letting me ramble on over here. Do you want to jump in?Meagan: No. I am in agreeance with everything. Something for me is like, I really wanted a home birth, but my husband didn't feel comfortable with the idea of home birth. I think that can be a hard thing too. The mom feels comfortable birthing at one place, but the partner doesn't feel comfortable with them birthing at the other place. I think, sometimes, that can make it a hard situation, right? And so, I just loved so much that you didn't-- one, that you didn't have to feel that way, but even with my situation, in the end, we really just came down to it. I gave him all the education and facts on it and he was like, “Oh okay. Yeah. I think that would be fine.” And then after we had a VBAC, I had a similar situation. We didn't find my blood.Sarah: Hmm.Meagan: Yeah. Neither externally nor internally, weirdly enough. But I lost half of my body's blood after my birth. I passed out a couple of times. It was really interesting.Sarah: It's a weird feeling.Meagan: It is a really strange feeling. I remember waking up, I am like, “Why am I on the floor again?” And everyone is like, “Well, it's because you passed out again.” But even after all of that is said and done, my husband was like, “You know, if we are having another one,” which we are not, “I wouldn't do it any other way and we would totally do it at home.” And so, it is just so interesting to see how that experience changed his perspective on where we birth, you know? So, I don't know. I just love that you had an educated doula and that you had the midwife on the phone. I loved all of it. And you know what? I actually don't think I knew that Cesarean moms were at higher risk for the c.Sarah: I think it's just because there's a higher chance of the blood passing through into-- cross-contamination they said.Meagan: Yeah, which totally makes sense.Sarah: Yeah. It can totally happen with a vaginal delivery as well if there is a tear or something like that, but it's a lot more common for a—Meagan: -- a Cesarean.Sarah: Not that it is common, to begin with, let's be real. I have a weird blood thing to go with my weird unicorn kid that only has one kidney, and my other weird unicorn kid that can't hear well, and my husband who has weird blood. So, yeah. We're a family of unicorns.Julie: Unique. You're not weird. You're unique. I like it.Sarah: Unicorns. I have two girls. There are unicorns everywhere.Julie: Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes.Sarah: Everywhere.Meagan: I love it.Julie: That is amazing. Well, wow. We are so grateful that you shared your story with us today. It was so fun to come full circle from our admin texting us. She was like, “Have you heard of little c?” I was like, “A little c? Is that like Big C?” But like, being kind of sarcastic because sometimes we hear some crazy things and she was like, “No, really. Little C antibodies?” And Meagan was like, “I've heard of Big C.” I was major impressed with Meagan because I hadn't even heard of that. And so, it was just so fun to have that conversation in our memory and then have you come on the podcast and share. Yeah. It was just really neat to have you. Thank you so much.Meagan: Yes.Sarah: Definitely. Hopefully, if there's another mom out there that has something like that, she'll feel less alone.Julie: Yes. We are putting it in our title so that if anyone searches for it, they will find it.Sarah: There we go. Perfect.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. 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