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Stephanie:Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie's Dish, the podcast where we talk to cool people in the food space. We talk to a lot of cookbook authors, and today I'm excited to talk to Sally Ekus. She is a literary agent, which, if you've written books or you're trying to get a book published, you know how important the agent process is. She leads a boutique culinary and lifestyle division via @JVNLA and is the lead agent at the Ekus Group. Did I get it right?Follow Sally's Substack Newsletter Not So Secret Agent Sally Ekus:Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I lead the Ekus Group. So we're a culinary and lifestyle division within a broader agency.Stephanie:And the Ekus Group was started by your mom.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:A legend. Your mom has, like, one of the largest cookbook collections that I'm aware of.Sally Ekus:In fact, the largest, according to Guinness. Yes.Stephanie:A couple of months ago, I think maybe it was on your Instagram page, someone posted a picture of her library of her home that is literally looks like a library that you would see in New York city or Washington, D.C. or somewhere fancy with just walls and walls of books. It was so gorgeous.Sally Ekus:Yeah, It's a two store, all cherry wood, gorgeous library. She built the edition. It was a dream edition. It took a lifetime to build. And it is filled with cookbooks, almost exclusively cookbooks. Her fiction and children's books and other personal books are scattered elsewhere around the house. But the library is almost entirely culinary with over 6000 titles. It's really cool.Stephanie:It's amazing. And your mom's name is? Lisa. Please, can I ask you a question? I'm going to go all over the place here, but sure, please. I have a daughter and only one daughter and no sons. So my only child. And there are things that we have in common about cooking and about food, and I always think, like, oh, maybe she'll follow in my footsteps. But then she is quick to point out, like, no, I'm never doing that. But then she's sort of leaning sort of my way.Stephanie:How did that work with you and being in the publishing space?Sally Ekus:Yeah. So how old is your daughter now?Stephanie:26.Sally Ekus:Okay. Yeah. So growing up, my mom had this vibrant culinary business. At the time, it was a PR agency before we did agenting, and it was never supposed to be a family business. She never pressured me or said, you know, maybe one day. In fact, it was just like. If you had asked me before I started working with her, what does Lisa do for a living? I would have said something with books and something in food. So I was like, growing up in this.Sally Ekus:And I was immersed and sort of absorbing by osmosis. And, you know, in the, in my younger years, I would be like, collating press kits for PR campaigns and, you know, I was like earning a allowance, mailing catalogs and whatnot. But it wasn't, it wasn't something she was really like, whatever you want to do, follow your heart. I was on a different path. I went to school for counseling and I was about to go for a master's in social work. And I deferred. I broke up with a bad decision, moved home, started helping out at the agency and realized that I'd been informally training for this my whole life. I really fell in love with it.And I was very fortunate to step into the legacy of her reputation. And then also, once we decided this is something I wanted to do, talk about what the succession plan would look like and really carve out my own, you know, vibe and skill set and cultivate my own list, supporting her list. And so it was really a unintentional natural progression that then became quite intentional and, you know, quite effortful. So I think that's kind of why it worked out. And if, you know, but it's hard to say in hindsight.Stephanie:It's funny too. You talk about this like being in training of knowing this thing and you not even really realizing that until you've left and gone to do something else. And also, it does track that you were going to be a social worker.Sally Ekus:Absolutely.Stephanie:And now you're an agent.Sally Ekus:Yeah. I somewhat sarcastically but realistically acknowledge that I was trained in crisis counseling, active listening, and negotiation. So all of those things play a very big role in the work that I do as a literary agent working with books. But, you know, at the end of the day, it is a book. It is you know, not somebody's. Well, it is somebody's mental well being, but in a. In a different light. So I get to utilize those skills all the time.Sally Ekus:And it feels, it feels quite, quite lucky. And, you know, it's really the client management and author care and author advocacy that I love so much. And that has kept me, kept me in this, in this business for as long as it has.Stephanie:What is it about cookbooks in particular that makes you solely focus on that?Sally Ekus:Well, that I stepped into, you know, that was Lisa's area of expertise. She was one of the very first cookbook publicists. Publicist. She essentially created the category of culinary publicity before there were massive agencies handling, you know, influencers and brand campaigns. And so that was her area of expertise. So that's what I stepped into and was hyper mentored in. And I also equally just felt in love with it. I mean, there are many different things that bring people together, and at the end of the day, it feels like food is that one.Sally Ekus:Through line. Everyone has some relationship to food, recipes, cooking, memory, good, bad, complicated, probably somewhere in the middle. And so to have a little. To have a role in helping to bring that to fruition in published form is a tremendous honor.Stephanie:You are the publisher, or the agent, actually, of Entertaining 101 with Beth Lamana.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:We just talked with. With her last.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I listened to that. It was such a fun conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, she was pretty great. And the weirdest thing happened to me the other day. I was at my radio partner's office, and we were talking about a project, and she had a stack of cookbooks, and I was like, oh, what are you working on? She's like, oh, I'm. I'm helping our friend from Muriel, Karen Tomlinson, put her proposal together.Sally Ekus:Oh, my gosh.Stephanie:Oh, that's interesting. And she goes, yeah, she's got a really great agent already. And I'm like, who's her agent? And it's you.Sally Ekus:Yes, it is. Yeah. I'm so excited to be working with her. Yep. Yeah.Stephanie:Her point of view on food and her storytelling of the purveyors that she works with and her just completely beautiful recipes. I'm so excited for you, and I'm so excited for that book.Sally Ekus:Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's a great example of really early development. You know, I often say that I work with people, not proposals. You know, we can get to the proposal. I help guide people through that process as an agent. And, you know, this is a great example where it's like, you know, I'm so captivated by the food and the media attention and the accolades and the intentionality of what is happening from the farm to the plate. And so, you know, sometimes chefs work with writers or collaborators to help bring that to the. To the printed page.Sally Ekus:And that's where we're at with that project. So it's in very early stages, which is super exciting.Stephanie:Yeah. You're going to not be disappointed. She is just a great person. She's a great storyteller, and that you had a really good eye to pick her up, because I think she's.Sally Ekus:Thank you.Stephanie:What other projects do you have on the docket right now that you're excited about? I see Potluck Desserts behind you.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah. Justin Burke, Potluck Desserts. Justin's book came out the same day as Beth's just a couple weeks ago. And I try to rotate in my background the books that are sort of newly rotating. So The Meathead Method over here, that is Meathead's second book. His first book called Meathead, came out almost 10 years ago. And it's all. Both books are all about the science and art and science of barbecue and grilling and outdoor cooking.Sally Ekus:I have books in a bunch of different levels of activity, so that's also fun because I have something that's like, you know, proposal and development and then things that are coming out. So it really, it really runs the gamut. I just saw Frankie Gaw, whose Instagram handle is @littlefatboyfrankie. He's up for a James Beard Media Award, and he just turned in the manuscript for his second book called Asian Americana. So I'm really excited about that. So it's really all levels of development over here.Stephanie:Once someone does their first book, is it easier to market them the second time around?Sally Ekus:Great question. I find that yes, because really, once that first book is to, you know, publishers need you to have or want you to have a big platform to warrant signing a book deal. And then the book helps sort of level up that platform, promotion, name recognition, certainly moving beyond like the core community of that author. It helps introduce new readers, new cooks, new fans to that person's work. And so I find that that second book, third book, fourth book, 10th book, really helps just keep that momentum going.Stephanie:You wrote something recently on your substack that people should follow you because you're a good follow that I really have spent a lot of time thinking about, and I'm probably going to get the name of the author wrong. So you may have to come.Sally Ekus:We can figure it out together. Yeah.Stephanie:The idea of it was is that a new cookbook writer launched a book tour in a way that was a little unconventional and in some ways maybe controversial because instead of the usual like going out to the booksellers and having a Q and A and talking, she hired her friend who is a comedian and really created more of like, I'll call it in air quotes, like a Real Housewives type in person cooking experience. That there was cooking demonstration, there was talking about the book. Do you know who I'm talking about?Sally Ekus:No, actually. Was it one of my clients or maybe a reshare?Stephanie:I think it's a reshare because she has been on the New York Times bestseller list now with her book for a couple weeks and it was the literary agencies kind of looked down on what she did a little bit because it was unconventional and maybe a little.Sally Ekus:I mean, I love unconventional.Stephanie:I kind of did too.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah.Stephanie:I wanted to ask you about that because I'm, you know, I'm getting ready to launch my own tour and thinking about, like, locations and. Yeah, it really blew my mind to think, like, for me in particular, and people that have really strong performing skills, like, you know, I am, I would say I'm more of a performer of cooking content than I am of necessarily creating recipes. I do recipe development, but it's more about the presentation of it. And I think that's so cool to think about that we're bringing books into this digital age in that way.Sally Ekus:Absolutely. So my overarching advice with every anything in publishing is it depends and you do you like, what fits for one person is not one size fits all for the other book or other campaigns. And so I love to share information, whether it's on my substack not so secret agent or on my social or just with my clients. Like, I like to share. Here's an example or here's five examples of what another author has done, what is helpful, what resonates with you, and like, move on from the rest. You know, how can you evolve this into your own campaign? And cooking is such a tactile experience. It's so experiential in and of itself. It's such a connector.Sally Ekus:It also can be so beautiful alone. Like, do what feels right for you, your book, and share in a way that feels true to you. Because that's what I think really attracts people to come out first and foremost and like, spend their free time and free re and any sort of additional resources they may have and make it fun and memorable. You know, I mean, I think more and more we see brands and individual authors and companies just evolving. You know the term like activation into experiences, into just moments that matter.Stephanie:You mentioned your substack not so secret agent, and I'm wondering if substack is changing or improving the landscape for cookbook authors.Sally Ekus:I think substack's changing all kinds of things. You know, it used to be that at least as a cookbook agent, we would sort of scout on Instagram or TikTok. And now substack is certainly a major player and there's a ton of food content and creators on substack. But even just a year ago when I got on, there's a lot less and I think there's still a lot more room because there's so many hyper focused areas of interest in foods that you have this opportunity. You know, maybe you can't land a publishing deal, but if you can build a community of the people that want your recipes, your voice, your food, whatever it is in that specific space, go for it. I mean, you can be so hyper focused and really build this, this beautiful community. And I love the Substack ecosystem. It's been incredibly generous to me and I try to give back as much as possible.Sally Ekus:Like the recommendations and resharing and discoverability aspect of Substack has been a really beautiful thing to experience.Stephanie:They've really democratized the idea of podcasting too. I've been podcasting for seven years. Actually longer than that, maybe even closer to like nine.Sally Ekus:Wow.Stephanie:Well, I was a broadcaster so it makes sense to go from radio to developing a podcast space and just the ease of ability of doing it now, you know, before you had to have special equipment and people to host it. And it's just gotten so much simpler. And we're also seeing that, I think with video that's making it so easy to go live. You don't necessarily need 10,000 watch hours on YouTube or 3,000 subscribers or whatever, you know.Sally Ekus:Yeah, most of my readers come like my email goes to their actual email inbox though people find me through substack and so it's been fun. I'm not by any means a seasoned or polished content creator, but I've been doing videos as one means of explaining other things about publishing and just kind of seeing how that resonates with people in their inbox versus other mediums. And it's been really fun. They are super lo fi and quite off the cuff. But most people that are not tuning in live to me on Substack, they'll find it in their inbox the next morning, which has been really fun too.Stephanie:I think the lo fi aspects too are almost what people are looking for.Sally Ekus:I hope so.Stephanie:I have not the TikTok algorithm and I are not friends, probably never will be friends. And I don't understand it at all because I can produce like something that looks great, tastes good, you. It's just mouthwatering to watch. And then I can post like a picture of my dog and that will be the thing that.Sally Ekus:Right. Well, I think animals will always outperform us on, on the socials as they should at this point.Stephanie:You know, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. A single subject book has popped into the zeitgeist that I'm really. I think it's a really great book. Sesame, it's called.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And it's like a single ingredient versus and they take that. She takes that single ingredient and uses it in many different ways throughout the book. You must see like single ingredient books, seasonal books, like, are there trends in what's hot right now?Sally Ekus:I love single ingredient books or single subject. Oftentimes it's a lower recipe count, somewhere between like the 50 to 75 range, as opposed to 75 to 100 or 125. It just feels like a little bit more giftable, a little bit more impulse buy. And it's really fun to see those. There's always single subject books cropping up. But I think particularly in the shift in the cookbook market, meaning there's a bigger gap between creator led books, big robust cookbooks and then sort of a place for everyone else. And sometimes that place where you can settle in for everyone else if you don't have this massive following is in a single subject book that could be your expertise or deep, deeply researched. I don't necessarily think that's so much a trend as it is something that like ebbs and flows.Sally Ekus:And we see a little bit more of on the cookbook shelf because they've always been there. But now people can nerd out on one thing and they'll go to the cookbook shelf because the food scene just in the zeitgeist has become so popular. There's strawberry earrings and I've got a sweater with cherries on it. So why not a book about just sesame? It's really a time to celebrate ingredients and food.Stephanie:When you are on like Instagram or TikTok and you're trying to relax, like you're not working. And I know that's really hard to even do.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Are you following like other creators and other spaces and thinking like, gee, how are they doing this or does that work for you?Sally Ekus:Well, I would, I would just clarify that I don't go on social to relax, but and also I'm almost always working. However, to answer your actual question, I have. Most of the people I follow outside of the food space are in the body inclusivity, body positivity space. I follow some fashion people that are highly inclusive, plus size fashion people that have completely changed my relationship to even the fact that I've said fashion on a podcast interview. I just never would have been that person a while ago. But it's offered me an opportunity to see like color and textures and textiles and just the lifestyle of how we have a relationship to our closet In a new way. Also the home and space, you know, I sometimes represent outside of the cookbook shelf. And so I like to say that I, I represent the home with a focus on the kitchen, but I also, you know, hang out in the living room and I have a tiny human, so I hang out with the kids space.Sally Ekus:And so it's just focusing on other rooms at the home at times has been really fun too. So that's kind of where I dabble on social as well.Stephanie:Speaking of kids, I don't know why this comes to mind, but I always get asked, you know, what are the cookbooks that you should be buying for kids and better homes or not. Betty Crocker's Boys and Girls is still like a best selling book, right?Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And then there's one other one that I'm going to not think of the name right off the top of my head, but there feels like there is kind of an empty space in Cooking with Kids and Cooking with Families.Sally Ekus:Yeah, there's a few. So I love the ATK books. I think it's a great brand. They've got great recipes for Cooking with Kids. Deanna Cook, who is a story publishing author, has a bunch of kids books that are awesome. And for me, I think sometimes it's not that there's like a lack of. It's just that there's still space for. And the tricky part about pitching and representing those books or selling them is it, is, is it a book for cooking with kids? Is it a book for kids to cook from? You know, and those are different age groups and those are different recipe styles.Sally Ekus:So much down to like the page and the format and the illustrations or the pictures or the how to steps. So there's just so many practical considerations and logistical ones that it's a slightly trickier category, but one that we've, we, we've dabbled in a little bit and there's some great books and I think a lot of space for, for others. The author of Indian Ish did a kids cookbook as well that I found really fun and just wonderful recipes. I forget the name of the book off the top of my head.Stephanie:That Indian Ish was a really cool cookbook.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:There's been some just beautiful, texturally colorful books written by people from more diverse backgrounds. And while it seems like we see a ton of that right now, and we are, it is fairly new in the last 10 years.Sally Ekus:It has become magnified and intensified though our agency. And kudos to Lisa for carving out her space as a Literary agent representing underrepresented voices from the get go. It's been a part of the ethos of our agency since day one. And so to see publishers in the past 10 years really prioritizing marginalized voices is amazing. And also a little about time, you know?Stephanie:Yeah.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Okay. Kind of a controversial question. Sometimes people in the media can be a little snooty about influencers and about social media in particular, because I think they feel maybe like people are treading on their. Their authority of space. Yeah, you get people that feel snarky sometimes about, like, oh, they're an influencer. It's another influencer cookbook and kind of eye rolling because there are some not so great cookbooks written by really good content creators, but maybe they're not great at putting it all in a book format or maybe the recipes aren't necessarily great. Once they get past that beautiful shot, do you think that there'll be, like, almost a backlash to this whole genre, as it were?Sally Ekus:I don't know that it would necessarily be a backlash in that a lot of the creator led books, both the great ones and the more challenging ones. I think the positive outcome of all of those books is that it has put this spotlight on food and the cookbook shelf. And I think the more people who are interested in what books are on the cookbook shelf, the better. What I do feel, and I've already started feeling this as an agent, is that the shift back to experts or an evolution to what is the next version of people that have really robust followings, capturing their audience in a meaningful way and delivering content that rings true to that audience and honors what the industry is looking for. I'm already hearing that shift from acquiring editors from publishers that I work really closely with and even in my own scouting. So I feel like we are moving towards the. Thank you very much for bringing a spotlight to the shelf. And where are we going and how can we all support the industry at large and.Stephanie:And the trend that we're talking about or hearing about is more expertise, you know, more of a microscope on something in more detail.Sally Ekus:Exactly, yeah. Which is so fun. I mean, more interest, more books, more. More food, more deep dives.Stephanie:And also, like, I mean, we just start scratching the surface about, like, my husband and I are working on books about place of food. So, like, we've written a fiction book about Croatia that has recipe as a component to it.Sally Ekus:I'm seeing a lot more crossover among different genres, even between fiction and nonfiction. I was just pitched a proposal, probably the first Maybe it's the second one that has sort of a fictional component to it. And I, you know, I don't represent fiction. That's for my colleagues at the agency and other agents in the industry. But it is fun to see how food has like penetrated every aspect of our lives and it's just delightful.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm super excited about that. In just my personal journey, it's keeping it fresh and interesting.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:You know, my husband is a writer as a fiction writer. And for us to like collaborate on a project together in a way that I know what my lane is and he knows what his lane is is pretty fun.Sally Ekus:Well, I think that's one of the many gifts that have come out of this like creator led book or just like the, the intensification of food in the zeitgeist is that people who are, who are an expert in a certain culinary topic could be a consultant on a novel or who knows, you know what I mean? And it's just, it's blowing the fridge doors wide open.Stephanie:I feel like it's sort of like the white lotus effect for books and cooking and food generally that put that lens on travel and exotic locales. And I just feel like that's the next thing and I'm gonna be there, I promise.Sally Ekus:Cool. Well, it is, it's so fun to just see our beloved culinary space be celebrated across, across genres and like just.Stephanie:To get back to as a little kid going into a bookstore or going into the library and just the joy of, you know, books have been under attack for the last 20 years as the Amazonification of the world has happened. But we're seeing in Minneapolis in particular, like lots of local bookstores are opening again and people are making them multi purpose. So they might be selling cooking things, but also they might have a coffee shop, they might do pastry.Sally Ekus:Yeah, my. One of my favorite recommendations for authors or aspiring authors or just dear friends is to go to your local independent bookstore and talk to the people that work there and ideally talk to the owner and the people who make the decisions about what books to bring in. It is a wildly fascinating conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, it's the best part about a book tour for me is actually like getting to talk to the people that recommend and sell the books and then.Sally Ekus:Also buy books there. Not. I think that's implied, but you never know.Stephanie:Yes. Sally, it's been a delight to talk to you. Thank you for joining the program today. I'll put links to your substack, also your information. If I don't know if anyone's listening is thinking about pitches, but if you are.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I have really comprehensive nonfiction book proposal guidelines that definitely pertain to those looking to write food books, but also are really applicable to anyone that's looking to learn about publishing. So that's a great link to share. And thank you so much for having me on.Stephanie:Yeah, it's great. And keep pitching me your authors. You have good authors. And the books. Beth was a joy.Sally Ekus:Oh, thanks.Stephanie:All right, we'll talk soon.Sally Ekus:Okay, bye.Stephanie:Okay, bye. Bye.Stephanie's Dish Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

Stephanie:Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dishing with Stephanie's Dish, the podcast where we talk to cool people in the food space. We talk to a lot of cookbook authors, and today I'm excited to talk to Sally Ekus. She is a literary agent, which, if you've written books or you're trying to get a book published, you know how important the agent process is. She leads a boutique culinary and lifestyle division via @JVNLA and is the lead agent at the Ekus Group. Did I get it right?Follow Sally's Substack Newsletter Not So Secret Agent Sally Ekus:Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I lead the Ekus Group. So we're a culinary and lifestyle division within a broader agency.Stephanie:And the Ekus Group was started by your mom.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:A legend. Your mom has, like, one of the largest cookbook collections that I'm aware of.Sally Ekus:In fact, the largest, according to Guinness. Yes.Stephanie:A couple of months ago, I think maybe it was on your Instagram page, someone posted a picture of her library of her home that is literally looks like a library that you would see in New York city or Washington, D.C. or somewhere fancy with just walls and walls of books. It was so gorgeous.Sally Ekus:Yeah, It's a two store, all cherry wood, gorgeous library. She built the edition. It was a dream edition. It took a lifetime to build. And it is filled with cookbooks, almost exclusively cookbooks. Her fiction and children's books and other personal books are scattered elsewhere around the house. But the library is almost entirely culinary with over 6000 titles. It's really cool.Stephanie:It's amazing. And your mom's name is? Lisa. Please, can I ask you a question? I'm going to go all over the place here, but sure, please. I have a daughter and only one daughter and no sons. So my only child. And there are things that we have in common about cooking and about food, and I always think, like, oh, maybe she'll follow in my footsteps. But then she is quick to point out, like, no, I'm never doing that. But then she's sort of leaning sort of my way.Stephanie:How did that work with you and being in the publishing space?Sally Ekus:Yeah. So how old is your daughter now?Stephanie:26.Sally Ekus:Okay. Yeah. So growing up, my mom had this vibrant culinary business. At the time, it was a PR agency before we did agenting, and it was never supposed to be a family business. She never pressured me or said, you know, maybe one day. In fact, it was just like. If you had asked me before I started working with her, what does Lisa do for a living? I would have said something with books and something in food. So I was like, growing up in this.Sally Ekus:And I was immersed and sort of absorbing by osmosis. And, you know, in the, in my younger years, I would be like, collating press kits for PR campaigns and, you know, I was like earning a allowance, mailing catalogs and whatnot. But it wasn't, it wasn't something she was really like, whatever you want to do, follow your heart. I was on a different path. I went to school for counseling and I was about to go for a master's in social work. And I deferred. I broke up with a bad decision, moved home, started helping out at the agency and realized that I'd been informally training for this my whole life. I really fell in love with it.And I was very fortunate to step into the legacy of her reputation. And then also, once we decided this is something I wanted to do, talk about what the succession plan would look like and really carve out my own, you know, vibe and skill set and cultivate my own list, supporting her list. And so it was really a unintentional natural progression that then became quite intentional and, you know, quite effortful. So I think that's kind of why it worked out. And if, you know, but it's hard to say in hindsight.Stephanie:It's funny too. You talk about this like being in training of knowing this thing and you not even really realizing that until you've left and gone to do something else. And also, it does track that you were going to be a social worker.Sally Ekus:Absolutely.Stephanie:And now you're an agent.Sally Ekus:Yeah. I somewhat sarcastically but realistically acknowledge that I was trained in crisis counseling, active listening, and negotiation. So all of those things play a very big role in the work that I do as a literary agent working with books. But, you know, at the end of the day, it is a book. It is you know, not somebody's. Well, it is somebody's mental well being, but in a. In a different light. So I get to utilize those skills all the time.Sally Ekus:And it feels, it feels quite, quite lucky. And, you know, it's really the client management and author care and author advocacy that I love so much. And that has kept me, kept me in this, in this business for as long as it has.Stephanie:What is it about cookbooks in particular that makes you solely focus on that?Sally Ekus:Well, that I stepped into, you know, that was Lisa's area of expertise. She was one of the very first cookbook publicists. Publicist. She essentially created the category of culinary publicity before there were massive agencies handling, you know, influencers and brand campaigns. And so that was her area of expertise. So that's what I stepped into and was hyper mentored in. And I also equally just felt in love with it. I mean, there are many different things that bring people together, and at the end of the day, it feels like food is that one.Sally Ekus:Through line. Everyone has some relationship to food, recipes, cooking, memory, good, bad, complicated, probably somewhere in the middle. And so to have a little. To have a role in helping to bring that to fruition in published form is a tremendous honor.Stephanie:You are the publisher, or the agent, actually, of Entertaining 101 with Beth Lamana.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:We just talked with. With her last.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I listened to that. It was such a fun conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, she was pretty great. And the weirdest thing happened to me the other day. I was at my radio partner's office, and we were talking about a project, and she had a stack of cookbooks, and I was like, oh, what are you working on? She's like, oh, I'm. I'm helping our friend from Muriel, Karen Tomlinson, put her proposal together.Sally Ekus:Oh, my gosh.Stephanie:Oh, that's interesting. And she goes, yeah, she's got a really great agent already. And I'm like, who's her agent? And it's you.Sally Ekus:Yes, it is. Yeah. I'm so excited to be working with her. Yep. Yeah.Stephanie:Her point of view on food and her storytelling of the purveyors that she works with and her just completely beautiful recipes. I'm so excited for you, and I'm so excited for that book.Sally Ekus:Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's a great example of really early development. You know, I often say that I work with people, not proposals. You know, we can get to the proposal. I help guide people through that process as an agent. And, you know, this is a great example where it's like, you know, I'm so captivated by the food and the media attention and the accolades and the intentionality of what is happening from the farm to the plate. And so, you know, sometimes chefs work with writers or collaborators to help bring that to the. To the printed page.Sally Ekus:And that's where we're at with that project. So it's in very early stages, which is super exciting.Stephanie:Yeah. You're going to not be disappointed. She is just a great person. She's a great storyteller, and that you had a really good eye to pick her up, because I think she's.Sally Ekus:Thank you.Stephanie:What other projects do you have on the docket right now that you're excited about? I see Potluck Desserts behind you.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah. Justin Burke, Potluck Desserts. Justin's book came out the same day as Beth's just a couple weeks ago. And I try to rotate in my background the books that are sort of newly rotating. So The Meathead Method over here, that is Meathead's second book. His first book called Meathead, came out almost 10 years ago. And it's all. Both books are all about the science and art and science of barbecue and grilling and outdoor cooking.Sally Ekus:I have books in a bunch of different levels of activity, so that's also fun because I have something that's like, you know, proposal and development and then things that are coming out. So it really, it really runs the gamut. I just saw Frankie Gaw, whose Instagram handle is @littlefatboyfrankie. He's up for a James Beard Media Award, and he just turned in the manuscript for his second book called Asian Americana. So I'm really excited about that. So it's really all levels of development over here.Stephanie:Once someone does their first book, is it easier to market them the second time around?Sally Ekus:Great question. I find that yes, because really, once that first book is to, you know, publishers need you to have or want you to have a big platform to warrant signing a book deal. And then the book helps sort of level up that platform, promotion, name recognition, certainly moving beyond like the core community of that author. It helps introduce new readers, new cooks, new fans to that person's work. And so I find that that second book, third book, fourth book, 10th book, really helps just keep that momentum going.Stephanie:You wrote something recently on your substack that people should follow you because you're a good follow that I really have spent a lot of time thinking about, and I'm probably going to get the name of the author wrong. So you may have to come.Sally Ekus:We can figure it out together. Yeah.Stephanie:The idea of it was is that a new cookbook writer launched a book tour in a way that was a little unconventional and in some ways maybe controversial because instead of the usual like going out to the booksellers and having a Q and A and talking, she hired her friend who is a comedian and really created more of like, I'll call it in air quotes, like a Real Housewives type in person cooking experience. That there was cooking demonstration, there was talking about the book. Do you know who I'm talking about?Sally Ekus:No, actually. Was it one of my clients or maybe a reshare?Stephanie:I think it's a reshare because she has been on the New York Times bestseller list now with her book for a couple weeks and it was the literary agencies kind of looked down on what she did a little bit because it was unconventional and maybe a little.Sally Ekus:I mean, I love unconventional.Stephanie:I kind of did too.Sally Ekus:Oh, yeah.Stephanie:I wanted to ask you about that because I'm, you know, I'm getting ready to launch my own tour and thinking about, like, locations and. Yeah, it really blew my mind to think, like, for me in particular, and people that have really strong performing skills, like, you know, I am, I would say I'm more of a performer of cooking content than I am of necessarily creating recipes. I do recipe development, but it's more about the presentation of it. And I think that's so cool to think about that we're bringing books into this digital age in that way.Sally Ekus:Absolutely. So my overarching advice with every anything in publishing is it depends and you do you like, what fits for one person is not one size fits all for the other book or other campaigns. And so I love to share information, whether it's on my substack not so secret agent or on my social or just with my clients. Like, I like to share. Here's an example or here's five examples of what another author has done, what is helpful, what resonates with you, and like, move on from the rest. You know, how can you evolve this into your own campaign? And cooking is such a tactile experience. It's so experiential in and of itself. It's such a connector.Sally Ekus:It also can be so beautiful alone. Like, do what feels right for you, your book, and share in a way that feels true to you. Because that's what I think really attracts people to come out first and foremost and like, spend their free time and free re and any sort of additional resources they may have and make it fun and memorable. You know, I mean, I think more and more we see brands and individual authors and companies just evolving. You know the term like activation into experiences, into just moments that matter.Stephanie:You mentioned your substack not so secret agent, and I'm wondering if substack is changing or improving the landscape for cookbook authors.Sally Ekus:I think substack's changing all kinds of things. You know, it used to be that at least as a cookbook agent, we would sort of scout on Instagram or TikTok. And now substack is certainly a major player and there's a ton of food content and creators on substack. But even just a year ago when I got on, there's a lot less and I think there's still a lot more room because there's so many hyper focused areas of interest in foods that you have this opportunity. You know, maybe you can't land a publishing deal, but if you can build a community of the people that want your recipes, your voice, your food, whatever it is in that specific space, go for it. I mean, you can be so hyper focused and really build this, this beautiful community. And I love the Substack ecosystem. It's been incredibly generous to me and I try to give back as much as possible.Sally Ekus:Like the recommendations and resharing and discoverability aspect of Substack has been a really beautiful thing to experience.Stephanie:They've really democratized the idea of podcasting too. I've been podcasting for seven years. Actually longer than that, maybe even closer to like nine.Sally Ekus:Wow.Stephanie:Well, I was a broadcaster so it makes sense to go from radio to developing a podcast space and just the ease of ability of doing it now, you know, before you had to have special equipment and people to host it. And it's just gotten so much simpler. And we're also seeing that, I think with video that's making it so easy to go live. You don't necessarily need 10,000 watch hours on YouTube or 3,000 subscribers or whatever, you know.Sally Ekus:Yeah, most of my readers come like my email goes to their actual email inbox though people find me through substack and so it's been fun. I'm not by any means a seasoned or polished content creator, but I've been doing videos as one means of explaining other things about publishing and just kind of seeing how that resonates with people in their inbox versus other mediums. And it's been really fun. They are super lo fi and quite off the cuff. But most people that are not tuning in live to me on Substack, they'll find it in their inbox the next morning, which has been really fun too.Stephanie:I think the lo fi aspects too are almost what people are looking for.Sally Ekus:I hope so.Stephanie:I have not the TikTok algorithm and I are not friends, probably never will be friends. And I don't understand it at all because I can produce like something that looks great, tastes good, you. It's just mouthwatering to watch. And then I can post like a picture of my dog and that will be the thing that.Sally Ekus:Right. Well, I think animals will always outperform us on, on the socials as they should at this point.Stephanie:You know, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. A single subject book has popped into the zeitgeist that I'm really. I think it's a really great book. Sesame, it's called.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And it's like a single ingredient versus and they take that. She takes that single ingredient and uses it in many different ways throughout the book. You must see like single ingredient books, seasonal books, like, are there trends in what's hot right now?Sally Ekus:I love single ingredient books or single subject. Oftentimes it's a lower recipe count, somewhere between like the 50 to 75 range, as opposed to 75 to 100 or 125. It just feels like a little bit more giftable, a little bit more impulse buy. And it's really fun to see those. There's always single subject books cropping up. But I think particularly in the shift in the cookbook market, meaning there's a bigger gap between creator led books, big robust cookbooks and then sort of a place for everyone else. And sometimes that place where you can settle in for everyone else if you don't have this massive following is in a single subject book that could be your expertise or deep, deeply researched. I don't necessarily think that's so much a trend as it is something that like ebbs and flows.Sally Ekus:And we see a little bit more of on the cookbook shelf because they've always been there. But now people can nerd out on one thing and they'll go to the cookbook shelf because the food scene just in the zeitgeist has become so popular. There's strawberry earrings and I've got a sweater with cherries on it. So why not a book about just sesame? It's really a time to celebrate ingredients and food.Stephanie:When you are on like Instagram or TikTok and you're trying to relax, like you're not working. And I know that's really hard to even do.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Are you following like other creators and other spaces and thinking like, gee, how are they doing this or does that work for you?Sally Ekus:Well, I would, I would just clarify that I don't go on social to relax, but and also I'm almost always working. However, to answer your actual question, I have. Most of the people I follow outside of the food space are in the body inclusivity, body positivity space. I follow some fashion people that are highly inclusive, plus size fashion people that have completely changed my relationship to even the fact that I've said fashion on a podcast interview. I just never would have been that person a while ago. But it's offered me an opportunity to see like color and textures and textiles and just the lifestyle of how we have a relationship to our closet In a new way. Also the home and space, you know, I sometimes represent outside of the cookbook shelf. And so I like to say that I, I represent the home with a focus on the kitchen, but I also, you know, hang out in the living room and I have a tiny human, so I hang out with the kids space.Sally Ekus:And so it's just focusing on other rooms at the home at times has been really fun too. So that's kind of where I dabble on social as well.Stephanie:Speaking of kids, I don't know why this comes to mind, but I always get asked, you know, what are the cookbooks that you should be buying for kids and better homes or not. Betty Crocker's Boys and Girls is still like a best selling book, right?Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:And then there's one other one that I'm going to not think of the name right off the top of my head, but there feels like there is kind of an empty space in Cooking with Kids and Cooking with Families.Sally Ekus:Yeah, there's a few. So I love the ATK books. I think it's a great brand. They've got great recipes for Cooking with Kids. Deanna Cook, who is a story publishing author, has a bunch of kids books that are awesome. And for me, I think sometimes it's not that there's like a lack of. It's just that there's still space for. And the tricky part about pitching and representing those books or selling them is it, is, is it a book for cooking with kids? Is it a book for kids to cook from? You know, and those are different age groups and those are different recipe styles.Sally Ekus:So much down to like the page and the format and the illustrations or the pictures or the how to steps. So there's just so many practical considerations and logistical ones that it's a slightly trickier category, but one that we've, we, we've dabbled in a little bit and there's some great books and I think a lot of space for, for others. The author of Indian Ish did a kids cookbook as well that I found really fun and just wonderful recipes. I forget the name of the book off the top of my head.Stephanie:That Indian Ish was a really cool cookbook.Sally Ekus:Yeah. Yes.Stephanie:There's been some just beautiful, texturally colorful books written by people from more diverse backgrounds. And while it seems like we see a ton of that right now, and we are, it is fairly new in the last 10 years.Sally Ekus:It has become magnified and intensified though our agency. And kudos to Lisa for carving out her space as a Literary agent representing underrepresented voices from the get go. It's been a part of the ethos of our agency since day one. And so to see publishers in the past 10 years really prioritizing marginalized voices is amazing. And also a little about time, you know?Stephanie:Yeah.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:Okay. Kind of a controversial question. Sometimes people in the media can be a little snooty about influencers and about social media in particular, because I think they feel maybe like people are treading on their. Their authority of space. Yeah, you get people that feel snarky sometimes about, like, oh, they're an influencer. It's another influencer cookbook and kind of eye rolling because there are some not so great cookbooks written by really good content creators, but maybe they're not great at putting it all in a book format or maybe the recipes aren't necessarily great. Once they get past that beautiful shot, do you think that there'll be, like, almost a backlash to this whole genre, as it were?Sally Ekus:I don't know that it would necessarily be a backlash in that a lot of the creator led books, both the great ones and the more challenging ones. I think the positive outcome of all of those books is that it has put this spotlight on food and the cookbook shelf. And I think the more people who are interested in what books are on the cookbook shelf, the better. What I do feel, and I've already started feeling this as an agent, is that the shift back to experts or an evolution to what is the next version of people that have really robust followings, capturing their audience in a meaningful way and delivering content that rings true to that audience and honors what the industry is looking for. I'm already hearing that shift from acquiring editors from publishers that I work really closely with and even in my own scouting. So I feel like we are moving towards the. Thank you very much for bringing a spotlight to the shelf. And where are we going and how can we all support the industry at large and.Stephanie:And the trend that we're talking about or hearing about is more expertise, you know, more of a microscope on something in more detail.Sally Ekus:Exactly, yeah. Which is so fun. I mean, more interest, more books, more. More food, more deep dives.Stephanie:And also, like, I mean, we just start scratching the surface about, like, my husband and I are working on books about place of food. So, like, we've written a fiction book about Croatia that has recipe as a component to it.Sally Ekus:I'm seeing a lot more crossover among different genres, even between fiction and nonfiction. I was just pitched a proposal, probably the first Maybe it's the second one that has sort of a fictional component to it. And I, you know, I don't represent fiction. That's for my colleagues at the agency and other agents in the industry. But it is fun to see how food has like penetrated every aspect of our lives and it's just delightful.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm super excited about that. In just my personal journey, it's keeping it fresh and interesting.Sally Ekus:Yeah.Stephanie:You know, my husband is a writer as a fiction writer. And for us to like collaborate on a project together in a way that I know what my lane is and he knows what his lane is is pretty fun.Sally Ekus:Well, I think that's one of the many gifts that have come out of this like creator led book or just like the, the intensification of food in the zeitgeist is that people who are, who are an expert in a certain culinary topic could be a consultant on a novel or who knows, you know what I mean? And it's just, it's blowing the fridge doors wide open.Stephanie:I feel like it's sort of like the white lotus effect for books and cooking and food generally that put that lens on travel and exotic locales. And I just feel like that's the next thing and I'm gonna be there, I promise.Sally Ekus:Cool. Well, it is, it's so fun to just see our beloved culinary space be celebrated across, across genres and like just.Stephanie:To get back to as a little kid going into a bookstore or going into the library and just the joy of, you know, books have been under attack for the last 20 years as the Amazonification of the world has happened. But we're seeing in Minneapolis in particular, like lots of local bookstores are opening again and people are making them multi purpose. So they might be selling cooking things, but also they might have a coffee shop, they might do pastry.Sally Ekus:Yeah, my. One of my favorite recommendations for authors or aspiring authors or just dear friends is to go to your local independent bookstore and talk to the people that work there and ideally talk to the owner and the people who make the decisions about what books to bring in. It is a wildly fascinating conversation.Stephanie:Yeah, it's the best part about a book tour for me is actually like getting to talk to the people that recommend and sell the books and then.Sally Ekus:Also buy books there. Not. I think that's implied, but you never know.Stephanie:Yes. Sally, it's been a delight to talk to you. Thank you for joining the program today. I'll put links to your substack, also your information. If I don't know if anyone's listening is thinking about pitches, but if you are.Sally Ekus:Yeah, I have really comprehensive nonfiction book proposal guidelines that definitely pertain to those looking to write food books, but also are really applicable to anyone that's looking to learn about publishing. So that's a great link to share. And thank you so much for having me on.Stephanie:Yeah, it's great. And keep pitching me your authors. You have good authors. And the books. Beth was a joy.Sally Ekus:Oh, thanks.Stephanie:All right, we'll talk soon.Sally Ekus:Okay, bye.Stephanie:Okay, bye. Bye.Stephanie's Dish Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

*Boom* This is the 400th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. And our guest for this episode is the CEO of The Nonfiction Authors Association, Stephanie Chandler. She recently published the Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan and we thought it would be great to find out more about how to write, publish and launch a book into the world. Stephanie did not disappoint. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan by Stephanie Chandler The Nonfiction Author Association The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Before I introduce today's guest and episode, this is the official 400th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. I'm not sure Kira and I ever envisioned this podcast going this long. In fact, other than wanting to have deep discussions that asked hard questions of expert copywriters, I'm not sure what we expected.  So many people have told us they are copywriters today because they were inspired by this podcast. Or by the stories our guests have shared. Or because they jumped into one of our programs designed to help them grow. So I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for making this podcast the world's most popular copywriting podcast. And now on to today's show… We've talked about writing a book on this podcast several times. But it's one thing to want to write a book, and another thing to have the tools and plan to make it happen. So when I got a copy of The Non-fiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan, I thought we should probably interview the author on the podcast and dive into what it takes to write and launch a book. Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I talked with former copywriter and current CEO of the non-profit author's association, Stephanie Chandler. Stephanie founded the Non-fiction author's association, so she was the perfect person to talk to about this subject as well as when you should take a leap of faith you might not be ready for and what gets taken when thieves rob a bookstore.  But before we jump in with Stephanie…  There's a question that clients ask before they decide whether something you write is worth paying a lot or a little for. That question is “Can I do this?” Most clients can write a blog post. Or an email. It might not be as good as the one you would write, but they could do a passable job. Those projects don't feel all that valuable because clients can visualize themselves creating them. They're not hard. Fewer clients think they can strategize and build an acquisition funnel. Or a sales page. Or a book. So these projects are more valuable to clients (which means you can charge more to do them). And almost no clients have the skills to manage sophisticated email marketing tools like Klavio, ActiveCampaign, or even ConvertKit. And if they do, they're often too busy to do this work themselves. These skills are among the most valuable of all. So how do you add a skill like managing email marketing tools to your copywriting services? This week in The Copywriter Underground, we'll show you. We've invited guest expert and email strategist Matt Brown to share exactly how to make sure your client's emails get into their customer's inboxes. And how to use this skill to set yourself apart from all the other “I-just-write-copy” copywriters out there. It's a master class for all members of The Copywriter Underground and you can join us if you visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu today. But do it today, because if you're listening to this a few days after the podcast comes out, it will be too late. Having these skills, makes getting hired by high-paying clients easier. But you have to opt in to get the training. And with that, let's go to our interview with Stephanie.

Joël shares his recent experience with Turbo, a JavaScript framework that simplifies adding interactivity to websites without extensive JavaScript coding. Stephanie gives an update on her quest to work from her office more, and the birds have arrived—most notably, chickadees. Stephanie and Joël address a listener question from Edward about the concept of a "spike" in software development. They discuss the nature of spikes, emphasizing that they are typically throwaway work aimed at learning and de-risking rather than producing final code, and explore how spikes can lead to better decision-making and prioritization in software development, especially in complex codebases. Transcript: STEPHANIE:  Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Stephanie Minn. JOËL: And I'm Joël Quenneville. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. STEPHANIE: So, Joël, what's new in your world? JOËL: I'm pretty excited because this week, I actually got to use a little bit of Turbo for the first time. Turbo is Rails'...I guess it's not technically just for Rails. It's a sort of unobtrusive JavaScript framework that allows you to build a lot of interactive functionality without actually having to write a lot of JavaScript yourself, just by writing some HTML in a certain way. And you can add a lot of functionality and interactivity to your site without having to drop to custom writing some JavaScript. STEPHANIE: Cool. Yeah, that is exciting. I personally have not gotten to use too much of it in a production/client setting; only played around with it a little bit on my own to keep up with what's new and just kind of reading about how other people are excited to use it. So, what are your first impressions so far? JOËL: It's pretty nice. It, you know, works as advertised. My situation, I was rendering a calendar view of a lot of events, and this is completely server-rendered. And I realized, wait a minute, there are some days where I've got, like, 20 events, and I really, like, I want my calendar squares to say sort of equally sized. So, I wanted to limit myself to only showing four or five events per calendar day. And so, I added a little link at the bottom of the calendar day that says, you know, "See more." And when you click that link, it does some Turbo stuff, and it pulls in other events so that you can now sort of expand it to get the whole day. So, it's just a little bit of interactivity that you kind of get for free with Turbo just by wrapping a particular HTML tag around it and having the Turbo library loaded. STEPHANIE: That's cool. I'm excited to try it out next time I'm working on a Rails project that just needs a little bit of that interactivity, you know, just to make that experience a little bit richer. And it seems like a really good, like, low-effort way to add some of those enhancements. Based on what you described, it sounds really easy. JOËL: Yeah, I was impressed with just how low effort it all was, which is what you want, right? It works out of the box. So, for anyone who's kind of curious about it, Turbo Frames is the little bit that I used, and it worked really well. Oh, something I'm actually excited about it as well; it plays nicely with clients that have disabled JavaScript. So, this link that I click to pull in the rest of the events, if somebody has JavaScript disabled, or if they command-click or control-click to open in a new tab, it doesn't just do nothing like it would often do in many sort of front-end framework-y places that have hijacked the URL click handler. Instead, it actually opens up the full list of items in a new page, just as if you'd clicked a normal link. So, it really gives you that progressive enhancement feel where I can click a link, and it goes to another page with a list of all the 30 events if I don't have JavaScript. But if I do, maybe I get a slightly better experience where, instead of taking me to a new page, it just expands the list, and I get to see the full list. So, it plays nicely on both sides. STEPHANIE: That's really cool. As someone who's just starting to dabble in some alternative browsers outside of the main popular ones [chuckles], I have noticed how many websites do not work for me anymore [laughs]. And that sounds, like, nice from a user perspective. JOËL: So, other than dabbling with the new browsers, what's new in your world? STEPHANIE: A few weeks ago, I talked about [laughs] sitting more at my desk and, you know, various incentives that I gave myself to do that. And I'd like to say that I've been doing a pretty good job [laughs]. So, what's new in my world is that I've followed up on my commitment to sit at my desk more, feel a little bit more organized in my workday. And that's especially true because the birds have finally discovered my bird feeder [laughs]. JOËL: Oh, that's really cool. STEPHANIE: There were a few weeks where I was not really getting any visitors, and, you know, I was just like, when are they going to come and eat this delicious birdseed that I've [laughs] put out for them? And it seems like a flock of chickadees that normally like to hang out on the apple tree in my backyard have figured out this new source of food, and they'll sometimes, five of them at a time, will come, and sometimes they even fight [laughs] to get on the ledge to hang out at the bird feeder. And yeah, it turns out that the six pounds of bird feed that I bought, I'll start to turn through [laughs] that a little bit quicker now, so I'm excited about that and just to also see other birds and species come and go as time goes on. So, that's been an exciting new development. JOËL: So, the six pounds of birdseed might not last you through the winter. STEPHANIE: I was debating between six pounds and, like, a 20-pound bag [laughs], which that would have been a lot. And so far, I think the six pounds has been serving me well. We'll see how long it lasts, but yeah, it's finally starting. I might have to refill it soon, so, you know, I was hopefully not going to have to store all that bird feed [laughs] just, like, in my house for a long time. JOËL: Any birds that have shown up that have been particularly fun to watch or that are maybe your favorites? STEPHANIE: I mentioned the chickadees because they seem to come as a group, and I really like watching them interact with each other. It's just kind of like bird TV, you know, it's not just a single bird. It's just watching these animals that are a collective do their thing. And I've been enjoying that a lot. JOËL: Now I'm just imagining a reality TV but the Chickadee edition. STEPHANIE: Oh yeah, definitely. I know some people put, like, cameras at their bird feeders to either live stream, which is funny because most of the time, there's nothing happening [laughs]. Usually, the birds are really in and out. Or they'll have, like, a really fancy camera to take, like, really beautiful up-close photos. There's a blog that I discovered recently where someone posts about the birds that visit them at their place in Michigan. I'll link to it in the show notes, but it's really cool to see these, like, up-close and personal photos of basically the bird's mouth. Sometimes, they're open [laughs], so you can see right in them. I don't know; maybe there's a time where I'll get so into it that I'll create my own bird feeder blog. JOËL: Well, if you do, you should definitely share it with the listeners on the podcast. Speaking of listeners on the podcast, we've recently had a listener question from Edward that I thought was a really interesting topic, and I wanted to take a whole episode to dig into. And Edward asks about the concept of a spike. Sometimes, we're asked to investigate a complex new feature, and you might want to do some evaluation on the feasibility and complexity and build out just enough of it to make a well-informed opinion. And ideally, you're doing that in a way that reduces risk of spending too much time with unproven impact. The problem is that in any reasonably complex codebase, that investigation work can be most of the work needed to build the feature. And Edward gives an example: if you're adding a system admin role, the core of the work is adding a new role with all of the abilities, but the real work is ensuring that it interacts with the entire system in the appropriate way. So, how do you manage making sure that you're doing spikes well? And Edward asks if this is something that we've experienced a sort of feeling that we're doing 90% of the work in the spike. He also asks, does this say something about the codebase that you're working on? If it's hard to spike in it, does that say something about the underlying codebase, or are we just all doing spikes wrong? So yeah, I'm curious, Stephanie: do you occasionally spike things out in code on your projects? STEPHANIE: Yeah, I do. I think one piece that was left a little bit unsaid is that I think spiking usually comes up when the team can't really estimate how long a task will take, you know, assuming that you use estimates on your team [chuckles]. That calls for a spike ticket, right? And someone will spend some time. And I think on some teams, this is usually time-boxed as well to maybe do a proof of concept or, yeah, do some of that initial exploration. JOËL: Before we go too deep, I think it's probably useful to define spike in that I think it's a little bit easy and probably varies from team to team and even from a developer to developer. I think, for me, when I think of a spike, it's throwaway work. The code that I write will not get shipped, and this is not code that will just get improved later. It is entirely throwaway work. And the purpose of it is to learn something about the project that's being done. Typically, it's in a sort of de-risking fashion, so to say, look, we've got a feature that's got a lot of unknowns in it. And if we commit to it right now or we start investing time into it, it could become a bit of a time pit. Let's try to answer some questions about it. Let's try to resolve some of those unknowns so that we can better make decisions around maybe estimation, but maybe even just prioritization. If this seems like something that would be really challenging to do, maybe we don't want to prioritize it this quarter. Is that similar to how you think of spikes, or do you have a different sort of definition of it? STEPHANIE: Yeah, I am glad you mentioned that it's throwaway work. I think I was a little hesitant to commit to that definition with conviction because even based off of what Edward was saying, there's kind of, like, maybe different ideas about that or different expectations. But I sometimes think that, depending, spiking doesn't even necessarily need to lead to code. Like, it could just be answering questions. And so, at the same time, I think it is, I like what you said, work that helps you learn more about the system, whether or not there's some code written as, like, a potential path at the end of it. JOËL: Interesting. So, you would put some things that don't involve code at all in the spike bucket. STEPHANIE: I think there have been times where I've done a spike, and I've not coded out anything, but I've answered some questions, and I've left comments about unearthing some of the uncertainty that led us to want to explore the idea in the first place. Then, again, I also have gone down the path of, like, trying out a solution and maybe even multiple and then evaluating afterwards which ones I think were more suitable. So, it could mean both. I think that is actually something that's within the power of whoever is assigned this work to determine whatever is valuable to them in order to get enough information to figure out how you want to move forward. JOËL: Another element of spikes that I think is often implied is that because this is throwaway work, you're not necessarily putting in all the work to make everything sort of clean, or well-structured, or reusable, or anything like that. So, it's quite possible that you would not even test this. You might not break this out into objects in the way that you would if this had to be reused. You might have duplication all over, and that's okay because the purpose of this code is not to be sort of production-grade; it's to answer some questions, and then you're going to throw it away and, using those answers, build something correctly. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I think that's true. And it's kind of an interesting distinction from, you know, what you might consider your regular work in which the expectation is that it will be shipped [chuckles]. And there's also some amount of conflating the two, I think because if, you know, you and I are saying like, yeah, like, this exploration should be standalone, and it is not going to be used to be built on top of necessarily, there is some amount of revisiting. And you're not starting from scratch because you have an idea, but you are starting fresh if you will. And so, you know, when you are doing that spiking, I think it allows you to move a little bit faster, but that doesn't mean that the work is, like, any X percent [laughs] done at the end of it. JOËL: The work is still kind of, I guess, 0% done, again, because this is throwaway code, in our definition of a spike anyway. Would you distinguish between the terms spike and prototype? STEPHANIE: Oh, interesting. My initial reaction is that a prototype would then be user-tested [laughs] in some way. Like, the point is to then show someone and then get them interacting with it, any initial reactions from that. Whereas a spike is really for the developer and maybe the team to discuss. JOËL: I like that distinction. I definitely think that a spike, for me, is purely technical. We're not spiking out a feature by putting a thing live in production behind a feature flag, showing it to 10% of users, and seeing how they respond to that. That's not a spike. So, I think something a little bit more like that, or where you're showing things maybe to users, or you're wanting to do maybe some user testing with something. And it can be throwaway code still. I think now you're starting to get something more that you would call a prototype. So, I like that distinction of, is this sort of internal or external? But in the way they're used, they can often be similar, and that oftentimes both will sort of...they're built to be as cheap as possible to answer the questions you're trying to get answered, whether that's from a user or just technical reasons. And so, the whole thing can be a little bit of smoke and mirrors, a little bit of duct tape and toothpicks, as long as you only have...like, the only solid parts you need are the parts that are going to help you answer your question. And so, any hack or cheat you can get to to bypass everything else is time you've saved, and that's a good thing. STEPHANIE: Oh, I'm very curious about this idea of time saved because I think sometimes an underappreciated outcome of a spike is what not to do or is choosing not to do something. And it can feel not great to have spent hours or even days exploring a path just to realize that it's not worth it. I'm curious, like, when you know to stop and also, how you get other people kind of onboard that even just figuring out an initial idea was not a viable solution, how that could be a valuable insight to the rest of the team. JOËL: Something that I think can be really useful is before you even start spiking out something, write a list of questions that you're trying to answer with this code, and then don't let yourself get distracted. Write the minimum amount of code that will allow you to answer those questions. So, maybe that is a question around, is it possible to connect this external API to our systems? There are some questions around, like, how credentials and things will work or how complex that will be. It might be a question around, like, maybe there's even, like, a performance thing. We want to talk to an external system and, you know, the responses back need to be within a certain amount of time. Otherwise, this whole approach where we're going to try to fetch data live is not feasible. So, the answer we need there is, can we do it live, or do we need to consider some sort of background fetching, or caching approach, or something like that? So, write the minimum amount of code that it would take to do that. And maybe the minimum amount of code, like you said, is not even really code. Maybe it's a script or even just trying out some curl commands and timing them at the command line. It could be a lot of things. But I think having a list of questions up front really helps you focus on the purpose of the spike. And I think it helps me a little bit as well with emotional attachment in that success is not necessarily coming to a yes on all of those questions. It is having an answer, going from question mark to some answer. So, if I can answer that question, if I can find even a clever way to answer that question faster, that is success. I have done a good job with my spike. STEPHANIE: I like that a lot. I think some people might struggle with spikes because they're so ambiguous. And if it's just, like, explore this potential feature, or, like, maybe not even that, but even saying, like, we want to build this admin role, to use Edward's example. And to constrain it to how should we do that, it already kind of guides the spike in a certain direction that may or may not be exactly what you're looking for. And so, there's some value in figuring out what questions to ask with the product team, even to get alignment on what the purpose of this task is. And, you know, this is true of regular feature work, too. When those decisions have kind of already been made about what we're working on without a lot of input from developers who will be working on it, it can be really hard to, like, go back and be like, "Oh, actually, that's not really possible." But if the questions are like, "Is this possible?" or like, what it costs to do this, I think it prevents some of that friction and misalignment that might be had when the outcome of a spike turns out to be maybe not what someone wants to hear. JOËL: And I think the questions you ask don't necessarily have to be yes or no questions. They could be some sort of list, right? It could be, look, we're looking at two different implementations or two general approaches, families of solutions for our super admin role. What are the trade-offs of each? And so, a spike might be exploring. Can we come up with a list of pros and cons for each approach? And maybe some of them we just know from experience at developing, but maybe some of them might involve actually doing a little bit of work to play out the pros and cons. Maybe that's in our app. Maybe that's even spinning up a little app on the side, right? If we're comparing maybe two gems or something like that to see how we feel about throwing a few different scenarios and exploring edge cases. So, the questions don't need to be straight-up yes or no. So, you mentioned earlier the idea that sometimes one developer might do the spike, and then another one might do the actual work, maybe inspired by the answers that were on that spike. And I think that can lead to some really interesting dynamics, especially if the developer who did the first spike has done kind of, like, what Edward describes, what feels like 90% of the feature. It may be not so great code quality. And then this is a branch on GitHub, and they're like, "Okay, do the rest. Make it good. I've already explored the possibilities here," and then you're the developer who has to pick that up. Have you ever experienced that? And if so, how do you feel picking up a ticket like that? STEPHANIE: Yeah, I have experienced it, and I think there is always something lost when that happens when you are not the person who did the research. And then having to just go from whatever was left in the notes or from the code and, you know, I don't know how feasible it is for whoever spiked to always be doing the implementing, but I certainly end up having a lot of questions, I think. Like, you can't document or even code out, like, every single thing you learned in that process, right? There's always from big to small decisions or alternatives considered that won't make it into however that communication or expression or knowledge transfer happens. And I think the two choices that I have as a developer picking that up is either to just trust [laughs] that the work the other person did is taking me down a good path or to spend more time rebuilding some of that context and making some of my own evaluations along the way and deciding for myself whether I'm like, oh yeah, this is a good idea, or maybe, like, I might change something here. So, I think that there is some time lost, too. And I think that's a really good thing to point out when someone might think like, oh, this is mostly done. That's kind of my first reaction in terms of the context loss in an exchange like that. JOËL: Do you feel like this is a situation where you would want to have the same developer do both the spike and the final implementation? Or is this maybe a situation where spikes aren't being done correctly, and maybe a branch with some code that's kind of half-written is maybe the wrong artifact to hand off from one developer to the other? STEPHANIE: Oh, that's really interesting about if that's the wrong artifact to hand off because it could be misleading. Maybe it's not always, and maybe there's some really great code that comes out of it if someone builds on top of a work-in-progress branch or a spike branch. Honestly, I think, and I haven't even really gotten to experience this all too much because maybe there is some perception that it's backtracking or, you know, it's more work or more time, but it would be really cool for whoever had spiked it to then bring someone along to pair on it and start fresh, like we mentioned, where they're kind of coming to each decision to be made with an idea, but it's not necessarily set in stone, right? There could be that discussion. It could be, like, a generative experience to either refine that code that had initially been spiked out or discover new things along the way. It's not like the outcome has already been decided because of the spike. It is information, and that's that. JOËL: And we on this podcast are very pro-discovering new things along the way. I think sometimes as a developer, if I get sort of a, you know, maybe a 90% branch done that's get passed on to me from somebody else who did a spike, it feels a little bit like the finish the rest of the owl meme, except that now I'm not even, like, just trying to follow a tutorial. Just somebody did the first couple of circles and then is like, "Oh yeah, you finish the rest of the owl. I did the hard work. You just need to polish it up." On the one hand, it's like, dude, if you're, like, doing 90%, you may as well finish it. I don't want to just be polishing somebody else's work. And, you know, oftentimes, it might feel like it's done 90% of the time, but it's actually, like, there's a lot of edge cases and nuance that have not been handled. And, you know, a spike is meant to be throwaway work to start with. So, I felt like those sorts of handoffs often, I don't know, they don't sit with me well. STEPHANIE: Yeah. You could also come in and be like, this doesn't even look like an owl at all [laughs]. JOËL: I feel like maybe in my ideal world, a branch with partly written code is, I guess, an intermediate artifact that might be useful to show. But what I really want from a spike is answers to questions that will allow me, when I build the thing from scratch to make intelligent decisions. So, probably what I want out of a spike is something that's closer to documentation, a list of questions that we were asking, and then the answers we came to by doing the spike work. And that might be maybe a list of trade-offs, or maybe we didn't really know the correct endpoints from this undocumented API, and we tried some stuff, and we, like, figured out what endpoints we needed, or what the shape of the JSON payload needed to be, things like that. Maybe we tried a couple of different implementations, or we did some exploration around, like, what gem we'd like to use, and we have a recommendation for a gem. Those are all, I think, very concrete outcomes from a spike that I can then use when I'm building it from scratch. And I'm not just, like, branching off your branch or having it open in another browser and copy-pasting snippets while trying to, like, add some testing and maybe modularizing it a little bit. I think that leads to probably a better outcome for the person who's doing the spike because they have a tighter scope and also a better outcome for me, who's then trying to build that feature correctly from the ground up. I think that would be my sort of ideal workflow. STEPHANIE: While you were saying that, I thought about how a lot of those points sounded like requirements for a feature. And that, I think, is also a good outcome when a spike then leads to more concrete requirements because those are all decisions that were thought through, right? And even better is if that also documents things that were tried and the trade-offs that came with them or, like, the reasons why they were less viable or not ideal for that added context because that is also work that happened [laughs] and should be captured so someone can know that that might not be time they need to spend on that. I am really interested in one piece that we haven't quite touched on is the complexity of the app and what it means for spiking to be a challenge because of the complexity of the app. JOËL: Yeah. And I think sort of inherent in there is that maybe the idea that if you have a really complex app, it sort of forces you to go to the 90% of the work done in order to successfully answer the questions you wanted to answer with your spike in a way that maybe a better-structured app would not. Do you think that's true? STEPHANIE: Well, I actually think that if the app is complex, you're actually seeing that affect all parts of feature development, not just spiking, where everything takes longer [laughs] because you maybe feel less confident. You're nervous about breaking something. Edward called the real work ensuring that it interacts with the entire system correctly, and that's true of, I think, just software development in general. And so, I wonder if, you know, spiking happens to be one way that it manifests, but if there are signals that it's affecting, you know, all parts of your workflow. JOËL: There definitely is a cost, right? Complex software imposes costs everywhere. In some way, I think maybe spiking is attempting to get around some of those, in that there are some decisions that we can just say, you know what? We'll build the feature, and we'll just kind of figure it out as we go along, and we'll, like, build the thing. Spiking attempts to say, look, let's not build the whole thing. Let's fake out a bunch of parts because, really, we have a big question that we want to answer about a thing that is three steps down, you know. And maybe the question is, look, we're trying to build the super admin role, and we know it's got all these, like, edge cases we need to deal with. Maybe we need a list of the edge cases, and maybe that's how we, like, try to drive them out. But maybe this is a, hey, do we want to go with more of a, like, a role hierarchy inheritance-based approach, or do we want to go with some sort of escalating defaults? Or whatever the couple of different strategies you might want to do. And the spike might be trying to answer the question, how can we, as cheaply as possible while doing the minimum amount of work, sort of explore which of these implementations works best? And in a complex system, is it possible to get to the answer to those questions without building out 90% of the feature itself? I think, going to what you said, you might have to do more work if it's a complex system. But I would also encourage everyone to go absolute minimalist, like, keep your goal in mind: what is the question you're trying to answer? And then ruthlessly cut everything you need to get to your point where you can answer that question. Do you need to hard code? Do you need to metaprogram? Do you need to do just, like, the worst, dirtiest code that you've ever written? That's okay because, like, the implementation does not matter. The fact that you're not exercising the full system does not matter, as long as the part that you're trying to exercise and answer your questions does get used. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I like that a lot. And I wonder if the impulse to want to spike something is coming out of nervousness about how complicated the ask is. And it's like, well, I don't want to tell you that it's going to take a long time because this app is extremely complex, and everything takes a long time. You know, it's like not wanting to face that hard question of either we need to just set our expectations that things take longer, or we need to make some kind of change to make that easier to work with. And that is a lot of thought and effort. And so, it's kind of an answer to be like, well, like, let me spike this out and then see [laughs]. And so it may be a way to appease someone making a request for a feature. I don't know; I'm perhaps projecting a little bit here [chuckles]. But it could also be an important question to ask yourself if you find your team, like, needing to lean on spikes a lot because you just don't know. JOËL: That's really interesting because I think that maybe connects to a recent episode we did on breaking features down into smaller chunks. Spikes can often manifest, or the need for a spike can often manifest when you've got a larger, less well-defined feature that you want to do. So, sometimes, breaking things into smaller pieces will help you have something that's a little bit more well-defined that you feel confident jumping into without doing a spike. Or maybe the act of trying to split this sort of large, undefined task into smaller pieces will reveal questions that need to be answered and say, look, I don't know where the seam should be, where to split this task because I don't know the answer to this one question. If I could know the answer to this one question, I would know where to split this feature. That's your spike right there. Do the minimum amount of code to answer that one question, and then you can split your feature and confidently work on the two smaller pieces. And I think that's a win for everyone. STEPHANIE: Yeah. And you can listen back to our vertical slice episode [laughs] for some inspiration on that. JOËL: On that note, shall we wrap up? STEPHANIE: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeeee!!!!!!! AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Patrick gives heartfelt advice on handling noisy children at Mass along with some practical strategies for parents and parishioners alike, with personal stories touching on patience, understanding, and community. Plus, we tackled the nuances of cry rooms in churches, urging empathy and consideration for young families. Michelle - Jonah: 3. God repented of the evil He threatened to do to them. I didn't think God had evil in Him. How can I understand this? Katie - Regarding caller Britney from the last hour: I agree with what you said about kids at Mass. I used to be in that situation. It was very difficult. (12:24) Tim - My wife and I try to encourage the young families to bring their children. We will thank them for bringing their kids. Lourdes (9-years-old) - Is Jesus human? (21:47) Rose - How do I, as someone who doesn't have children, ignore children who are disruptive at Mass? (27:13) Stephanie - There are many reasons why people refuse to use a cry room. I have been in both situations on this subject. (44:49)

Joël has been working on his RailsConf talk about various aspects of discrete math useful in day-to-day work as a developer and going deep on some concepts from propositional logic and Boolean algebra, particularly DeMorgan's Laws, which explain how to negate a compound condition. Stephanie attended a meeting with a fun "Spicy Takes" topic. She gave a short talk on how frictionless technology may not be the best path forward and tried to argue in favor of more friction in our software. Together, they talk about ways they've made remote work work for them and things they'd like to try/do differently. This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. Taskmaster - Do Not Avoid Not Making the Bell Not Ring (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iEnaOKGOFw) The Dark Side of Frictionless Technology (https://newsletters.theatlantic.com/galaxy-brain/6328fa97bcbd490021b314da/personal-tech-obsolete-user-experience/) Is Tech Too Easy to Use? (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/technology/tech-friction-frictionless.html) How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/600671/how-to-do-nothing-by-jenny-odell/) Rubber duck Debugging (https://rubberduckdebugging.com/) Schedule Shutdown, Complete Bike Shed episode (https://www.bikeshed.fm/310) Transcript: STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Stephanie Minn. JOËL: And I'm Joël Quenneville. And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. STEPHANIE: So, Joël, what's new in your world? JOËL: I've recently got accepted to speak at RailsConf. And I've been working on my talk about various aspects of discrete math that are useful in day-to-day work as a developer and going really deep on some concepts from propositional logic and Boolean algebra, particularly the DeMorgan's Laws, which explain how to negate a compound condition. So if condition one or condition two, if you want to negate that thing as a whole, you can't just negate both of the conditions individually. You will get a totally different result, and that's a really easy mistake to make. I don't always memorize exactly what to do. But I know enough in the back of my head when it comes up on a pull request to check it out and be like, oh, there's a negating of a compound condition here. Pay closer attention. There might be a bug. STEPHANIE: So are you saying that when you negate each condition individually, you get the opposite result that you want? JOËL: It's not opposite, just different. STEPHANIE: Just different, okay. JOËL: So De Morgan's Laws tell us that if you want to negate the compound condition as a whole, you negate the individual clauses but then also have to flip the sign in the middle. So if you're trying to negate condition one and condition two, it becomes not condition one or not condition two. STEPHANIE: I see. Wow, that's confusing because you'd think that there are just two outcomes, but really there are a lot more. JOËL: Yes. STEPHANIE: And that reminds me of when we've talked about on the show combinatorial explosions, which I know is a favorite topic of yours. JOËL: Combinatorics will definitely come up in the talk as well. It's sometimes hard to hold all the possibilities in your mind. And so I'm a big fan of truth tables to visualize what's happening and to be like, oh, when I make this thing negative, now all these things flipped into false when I want them to be true and vice versa. Okay, I've got a weird inverse going on here or something like that. STEPHANIE: I have a funny thing to share with you. Joël, have you ever heard of the show "Taskmaster"? JOËL: No, I'm not familiar with this. STEPHANIE: Okay, it's a British reality competition comedy show where the contestants are usually famous British actors or comedians. And they have to do just really insane, silly tasks. And usually, one of the more iconic ones is to eat as much watermelon as you can in a minute. But they're just presented with a whole watermelon without any tools or anything [chuckles] for cutting it up. And it's just very funny and very delightful. And one of the tasks that I watched recently was a situation where they had to follow these instructions, and the instructions were to do the opposite of the following statement: "You must under no circumstances not avoid not making the bell not ring." And they had a bell right in front of them. And so they had to figure out if they were supposed to ring the bell or not ring the bell based on those instructions and within a certain time limit. If they had the math skills that you were talking about, [chuckles] perhaps they would have been able to figure it out. JOËL: I would absolutely want to write that out as a more formal logic thing. Otherwise, it becomes...you just mess with your head. You get in almost a recursive space where like, wait, not not, does that cancel? Does it stay? And yeah, it gets really messy. STEPHANIE: Yeah, it was very funny to watch them try to figure that out on the spot. And I think there's a clip of it on YouTube that we can link [laughs] for our listeners. JOËL: That's amazing. What's new in your world? STEPHANIE: So last Friday...you and I are on the same team at thoughtbot called Boost, and every two weeks, we get together as a team, and we have a meeting where anyone can propose a topic. It's just a nice space for people to see each other and hang out. And one of our co-workers hosted that meeting and he chose the topic of spicy takes and asked for volunteers to sign up and give a quick couple of minutes lightning talk on the spicy take that they had. And it was so fun. We got some takes on how REST is not the best. We got some opposing opinions about Tailwind. And I ended up giving a short, little talk on how frictionless technology may not be the best path forward and was trying to argue in favor of a little more friction in our software. JOËL: What would friction look like in this scenario? STEPHANIE: I was really interested in exploring how by making our software so easy for users we eliminate some amount of attention and mindfulness into using technology. So I think for me friction would be presenting the user with more autonomy and choice rather than making decisions on their behalf. I don't totally know what that looks like, but I do know that things like one-click ordering or autoplay those things have made me bristle a little bit in certain contexts and wondering what other options do we have available to us to provide the features we want to provide to our users but maybe not in a way that is so convenient and easy to use that we lose that aspect of knowing what we're doing with our technology. JOËL: I feel like knowing you, you've probably read a couple of articles and some books on this topic. And if I wanted to dig more into this idea of a little bit more mindfulness or introducing a little bit of friction into my software world, where would you recommend I go to read? STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's a great question. When I was preparing the talk, I referenced a few articles that I'll link in the show notes, one from The Atlantic and one from The New York Times. And I liked them because one of them presented what I was getting at, the more philosophical approach of like, what does it mean for our attention to be? And what does it mean for our technology to be too easy? And the other one had more practical use cases for security and technology misinformation and abuse. So I liked that those two things complemented each other equally. And then I also would plug a book called "How to Do Nothing: Resisting the Attention Economy" by Jenny Odell. I read that book last year and really enjoyed it. And she talks a lot about just the current technology landscape and what we, as consumers and users, can do to reframe our relationship with it. And I think that book is for people who use technology in general. But as developers, I think we are in a unique position to extend that train of thought right into the things that we develop. JOËL: You know, a place where I do appreciate friction is in the physical world. If there weren't any friction, my chair would not stay put on the ground. My fingers would not press on the keyboard. So we need friction to be able to do our jobs. So you work from home; I work from home because thoughtbot is now fully remote. How has that been for you setting up a work environment in your home? STEPHANIE: So I've actually been working from home since 2019. So about a year before the pandemic, I had moved to Chicago and was still working for a company in New York. And so that was when I started working from home, and then have just been doing that ever since. So I think I have now really figured out a setup that works for me. I've been doing it for four years now, which is pretty wild to me when I think about it. It's interesting because I actually really enjoyed going into an office. And there are parts of that that I really miss. But I think I have just gotten used to it and have a setup that works well for me. JOËL: Are there any things that you like to do for your environment to help get yourself into maybe the zone a little bit more easily? STEPHANIE: Yeah. So my workspace is a separate room from the rest of my apartment, which is also really just one big room. [laughs] It's kind of like a loft-style situation, so I don't really have doors. But I am in what we call the sunroom, and it's actually kind of like an enclosed porch with a big window and lots of plants. And it's in the back of the apartment. And so whenever I'm in this space, it's because I'm working. And I think having that separation of home and work is really helpful. Because when I step into this space, I'm like, okay, now I'm at work, and I don't have as many distractions as I would if I were working in a different space like a bedroom or the living room. JOËL: I have to say whenever you're on a video call, the plants around you are iconic. STEPHANIE: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's been a nice conversation starter. When I'm meeting a new person, they usually comment on the plants, and I can give them a little show and tell. And that's been really nice. JOËL: I feel like a lot of people who work from home have put a lot of work into creating fun backgrounds for their video calls. Maybe they're setting up a cool bookcase behind them or plants. People like to put something behind them that will make things interesting on a video call in a way that maybe we didn't need to when it was just a conference room and in an office. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. I was just on a meeting with someone who had a big pile of tiny rubber ducks. So he was also a developer and, I guess, had just amassed this very delightful rubber duck collection, and it was just in the background. And we got to joke about it for a little bit, and that was really fun. JOËL: Are these rubber ducks meant to be used during debugging sessions? STEPHANIE: Yeah, exactly. JOËL: So I'm in a somewhat different situation from you in that I don't have a separate room to set up a home office. I've resisted doing anything in my bedroom. Like you said, it's good to have that separation. So I work more in my kind of living room-dining room space. And something that I found is really valuable for me has been movement. So say I work an hour in one part of the room, and then I switch to a different place. And it's going to be maybe a different posture. So I'm working in a solid chair table for a while, and then maybe I switch to more of an easy chair situation. That I think has been really helpful for me ergonomically during the day is just making sure that I'm not always in the same position constantly all the time but actually incorporating change in movement throughout my day. STEPHANIE: I like that a lot. I actually do also end up sitting at my dining room table sometimes for a change of scenery. It's funny because there was a while when...when I'm at my office desk, I have a standing desk. And so usually if I'm in a meeting, I would be at my desk and people would see me standing. And I think someone at some point mentioned like, "Wow, you seem to stand all day." And I was like, "Oh, well, when I'm not in a meeting, that's when I'm sitting on the couch or a lounge chair or something." [laughs] I'm curious, though, because you are working in your dining living space if it's been harder to separate work and home life. JOËL: I think it was definitely an adjustment, but it's a thing that I learned to do. And I still try to keep some amount of separation, which is why I don't set up an office space in my room. But I've also gotten to the point where now that I work from home, I find myself leaving home much more frequently after the workday ends. I was surprised just how much social interaction you get just by default being in an office around people all the time. When you're at home all day, even if you're on calls, it's not the same. And so I've found myself more and more to stay in a healthy emotional, mental space, leaving the home in the evening to go do things with friends or with other people. And so even though I am an introvert who prior to working from home preferred to stay at home more evenings than not, I've started living almost more of what people would assume is an extrovert lifestyle where I'm out every evening. STEPHANIE: Wow, that's so interesting because I'm the opposite; where when I was commuting and going to an office, I found it much easier to stay out. I would just go to a bar or a restaurant after work. Whereas now it's a bit harder because I'm not already out and about in the world, and also I am in my comfy pants, and I'm just like, oh, I have to go out? I don't know if I'm up for that. [laughs] Though I also really...I think the downside is that I have been really missing some of that human contact. And there are weeks where I'm like, dang, I really didn't talk to people in the world very much. So it's actually been a bit of a bigger obstacle for me to find the energy to see people in the evenings after work. JOËL: It helps to make plans. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's a good idea. JOËL: Or you can have people come to you. You mentioned you were doing that soup club. STEPHANIE: I did, yeah, back when the winter was first starting. I mentioned on the show that I was having people over for soup on Friday nights, and that was really great. That was nice because then I was like, okay, I have to sign off by 5:00 p.m. so I can start making the soup. [laughs] MID-ROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. Airbrake is an award-winning error monitoring, performance, and deployment tracking tool created by developers for developers that can actually help cut your debugging time in half. So why do developers love Airbrake? 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From testing to production, Airbrake notifiers have your back. Your time is valuable, so why waste it combing through logs, waiting for user reports, or retrofitting other tools to monitor your application? You literally have nothing to lose. Head on over to airbrake.io/try/bikeshed to create your FREE developer account today! JOËL: So you mentioned that sometimes it's hard to leave the home because you're kind of in your comfy clothes, and you don't want to kind of get dressed to go out. Has working from home kind of changed the way you tend to dress? Do you ever do the thing where it's like, oh, I've got the formal top and then just sweats? STEPHANIE: Yeah. Like business on top and party in the bottom [laughter] or something like that is the phrase. My habits around getting ready in the morning have definitely changed; where I don't put as much energy or effort, or time into it as I did when I was working in an office. And that has been nice because I get that time back, and that is really valuable to me. Yeah, I'm also usually just in soft pants. [laughs] That has definitely been a very positive impact on my life. And I do try to make an effort to go out for coffee. And when I do that, I'm just like, yeah, how I go out is how I go out. I don't really mind. I'm very comfortable going out however I'm feeling that day. But I think getting the time back actually has been really important to me. JOËL: Hmm, I think for me, interestingly, that's become an interesting way to build a little bit of separation from personal life and work life. So I'm making a point to put on...I don't know how you describe it. I was going to say real pants, but it's not like sweats are not real pants. But yeah, I will put on the kind of thing that I would put on to go in the office. And for me, that's kind of a...it's a start to the day. It's a start to being more serious and transitioning to more of a work mindset. STEPHANIE: Yeah, absolutely. JOËL: As opposed to on the weekend, if I'm just hanging around in the same space, but I'm dressed differently, I don't feel like I'm in work mode. STEPHANIE: Yeah, yeah, that's fair. I've definitely noticed your fun sweaters that you wear in video calls and stuff. So I really appreciate that; yeah, you are just putting on clothes that make you feel like you're ready to dive into the work week. I'm really curious, do you find yourself being more productive working from home than you were working in an office? JOËL: I would say it's about even on average. There are probably days where more or less on one side or the other, but I would say it's similar. STEPHANIE: I think I'm actually much more focused at home. And I know that this is not true for everyone because I was chatting with a friend, and she was asking, like, "How do you stay focused at home?" She was telling me that she gets so distracted by all the things that she could be doing in her home life. And for me, because I really enjoyed the social aspect of being in an office, I found myself wandering into the kitchen not infrequently to go get some snacks, and oh, running into this person and having a little chat. And I think my presence also, I was available for other people to come to me and start a conversation or ask to go on a walk. And I think I actually really needed that external push to take breaks. Because now that I'm working from home by myself, I definitely just get into some rabbit holes, and it's tough for me to resurface. JOËL: Let me fix one more error, and then maybe the test will be green. Oh, that didn't fix it, but I'll bet one more would fix it. And keep doing that until it's like, oh, well, I'm going to push off my break for another 30 minutes, oh, another hour. And it's like, you know what? I'm just going to finish my day. STEPHANIE: That literally happens to me all the time. The lunchtime break is tough because I definitely will delay that by 15 minutes and then 30 minutes, and then oh no, it's like 2:00 p.m. Okay, let me just eat a snack, then. And then keep going until I finish whatever task, and then end up wishing that I had made a little more of an effort to take a real break. JOËL: Yeah, I was having a conversation recently with someone about how it's often easier to make space for other people than for yourself. So if somebody is like, "Hey, I want to take a break. Do you want to go take a walk?" You might be like, "Sure." Maybe I wasn't quite in a place where I wanted to take a break, but I'll make the time for you. Whereas when it's like, you know what? My body or my mind is telling me I need to take a break, but this test isn't green yet. So I'm going to almost deny myself here for the, I don't know, the good of the mission, whatever. It's not really a noble sacrifice. It ends up hurting you and the project in the longer run, but it's so much easier to do that. STEPHANIE: Wow. Okay, yeah, that really resonated with me because I find myself in situations where I don't think that I can take a break because I'm like, oh, I have all these red tests, and I need to get them in a place where I feel comfortable stepping away. But if someone asked me like, "Hey, I'm at your door. Let's go for a walk," I could just put it away and go for a walk and have a great time. And I would like to be able to do that for myself when I don't have someone prompting me. JOËL: There's something I really appreciated that someone who used to be at thoughtbot would do is this person would go for a walk every afternoon without fail and would drop a line in the Slack channel being like, "Hey, I'm stepping away for a walk." And, I mean, yeah, it's nice to know that, okay, this person's not reachable for the next 15 minutes or whatever. But that's not really, I think, the value that I got from it. It was more of seeing somebody else taking a break and it being a reminder for me too to be like, you know what? Maybe I should take a walk as well, like, it might be time for a break. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I like that a lot. I think it's kind of ironic that I have quote, unquote, "optimized" my setup so much that I don't get distracted that I miss out on the friction laughs (A little call back to earlier.) that I would like to, yeah, call more mindfulness to how I'm physically feeling, not even physically but also emotionally and intellectually and being prompted, like I said, externally because I am realizing now that I really need that. JOËL: And at least for us here in North America, it's now starting to be spring. And so I think sometimes winter can be its own barrier to be like, you know what? I should go and take a walk. I don't know if I want to put on all the layers and my boots and all of that and deal with the snow. Whereas now it's like, just walk out and there will be flowers and trees covered in blooms. And it's going to be amazing. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. I agree; I think when the weather is nice, that is definitely a bigger motivator for me because there's more to enjoy and more to look at. And I love being outside. When you do step away to take a break, what do you do in your home or outside your home? JOËL: So I'm a big fan of taking a walk. I live in a dense, walkable neighborhood, Downtown Boston. And so just walking around a few blocks is a great way to get a little bit of fresh air, just get some motion going because I've been sitting around for a long time. It's a lot of natural beauty as well. A lot of people have gardens, and there are a lot of trees planted along the roads. So it's just a really pleasant way to, in some ways, connect with a little bit of nature and be outside and reset. Do you find yourself when you're looking for a break gravitating outwards or inwards in your space? STEPHANIE: I like to make myself a snack, a cup of tea. Sometimes if I'm reading a good book, I'll get into the book for 20 minutes. And sometimes, if there's nothing to pick up, maybe I'll find myself on YouTube and watch a short little thing just to reset and have some fun. Sometimes I'll try to tackle some dishes. I think the other thing with working from home is that I now create more mess in my home. [laughs] I don't know if it's the same with you. But I, yeah, try to keep on top of that so that I don't have to do it later in the evening. JOËL: I think one of the things that's really nice about working from home is the ability to cook more because you're in that space. So I've found myself oftentimes more on my lunch break, maybe prepping some things for a stew or something that's going to braise, and then just having it sit on the stove all afternoon. And like I said, maybe a really quick break is just you get up, go check the pot on the stove, and you turn the heat down or stir it a little bit and then get back to work. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I like that a lot. I do that, too, with a pot of rice or beans or something like that. I also am definitely making my own food for lunch a lot more just because, being at home, you have your whole kitchen and fridge available to you, and I feel less pressure to get all that done the night before. JOËL: Right. I think I've been trying to incorporate a little bit more physicality to my breaks recently. And one thing that I've done for shorter breaks...if it is a longer break, it is nice to go out and take a walk. But for shorter breaks, I set up a pull-up bar, and I just try to go and do a set of pull-ups there. And I'm not great at it, so it's not like I'm there for 10 minutes doing 100 pull-ups. But it's a nice way to go from a very static mental mode to a quick break that just totally resets you into this active physical space. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I like that a lot because something like that requires your full attention and physical effort in that moment. So it's not like you can still really be thinking about work while you're in the middle of doing a pull-up, at least [laughs] that's my interpretation of [laughs] how you take those breaks. JOËL: I'm curious, are there any other kinds of lifestyle elements that you've changed or customized to help you have a better working-from-home experience? STEPHANIE: There was a past Bike Shed episode hosted by Steph Viccari and Chris Toomey, and I can't remember exactly what it was that they were talking about. It must have been working from home-related because Chris had mentioned a ritual that he had when he was finishing his workday where he would close his laptop and say, "Schedule shutdown complete." And I've been thinking about that a lot and trying to do a similar thing of just verbalizing, "I'm done with work now," to make it true. [chuckles] Otherwise, if I don't, I can find myself gravitating towards my laptop when I have a thought. Like, I have an idea like, oh, I just thought of a way to try to debug that test or whatever. And then I'll want to go back just really quickly to write it down on my work computer so it's there for me when I come back. But if I've said, "I am done with work today," that means I'm trying not to reopen the work laptop, and then I'll try to jot it down somewhere else. And that has been really helpful. JOËL: So, setting like an emotional boundary. STEPHANIE: Yeah, an emotional boundary that almost becomes physical in a way because when I was working in an office, I would never take my work stuff home with me, so I physically could not access it. And since I can't do that now, by verbalizing it, it's almost as if I've created a boundary in my head. JOËL: That's really powerful, the impact that you can have just by sort of verbalizing something. STEPHANIE: I will say that I also don't keep any work stuff on my personal devices and that was true even when I worked in an office, but I think it has actually been more helpful and important working remotely. It sounds like you've experimented with a lot of different ways to make remote working work for you. And I'm curious if there's anything else that you really want to change or anything that you would like to try or do differently. JOËL: I think an element that I've been experimenting with recently is actually working outside of the home, so something like going to the library or going to a coffee shop. Interestingly, I've tended to use those mostly for when I want to work on personal projects that are not work. So strangely enough, now I work in my home, and when I do things for myself that I previously would have maybe done in my home, now it's always at a coffee shop, at the library, something like that. So I still keep that separation, but it's inverted. STEPHANIE: Wow, that's really interesting. I also like to be in a more public space as well with my work. And just being surrounded by other people and busyness is very comforting for me. And it actually also helps with the rabbit hole because I think I am more present in my environment when I do have cues of people getting up around me or whatever. Though ironically, my wanting to be around other people does not really work well with meetings and collaborating and pairing with other people. [chuckles] And so when I have to do those things, even though I'm also socializing just in a different way, I usually have to be in a more quiet, private space. JOËL: Have you ever tried to maybe group your meetings on a particular day so that you have, let's say, an afternoon of uninterrupted time that you know you can just go to a coffee shop and be heads down and not have to take a call there? STEPHANIE: I haven't tried that. But I think that would be helpful because then it's kind of like the best of both worlds, right? Where I can say, "Hey, I can meet once I'm moved back into my private space," and also have that physical environment of being around other people. And I think I had previously thought just those things were mutually exclusive, but there are certainly ways that I'd love to try injecting that into my home-work setup. I'm really glad that we ended up talking about this because I think this will just be our future for a while. And it's always worth revisiting it and thinking about it and thinking if it's working for us or not. I'm really excited to try some of the new things that you mentioned. Like, we've been doing this for several years now, but there's always room for improvement and room to inject more fun and joy, and creativity in how we choose to do our work. JOËL: On that note. Shall we wrap up? STEPHANIE: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeee!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.

Joël submitted a last-minute submission to RailsConf discreet math, which got picked up!

“There are so many people that need my help. They just don't know about me yet,” shares Stephanie German, executive strategist and owner of German Business Consulting. In today's episode, Stephanie shares how career networking and implementing organizational processes can take your business from ugly to beautiful.   There are community groups for almost everything, you just have to look for them. Find a group where you belong and show up consistently. This will help you to build a referral network within your local community. Then, make sure that you have organizational processes in place to make it possible for you to delegate tasks to employees. Even if you are a solopreneur, you may end up wanting an assistant or social media manager eventually and having your processes written down will help make that transition smoother.   Whether you are a solopreneur or have a larger business, you can benefit from having organizational processes in place that capture leads and enable you to follow up more easily. By building a referral network, you will be able to give back to others and receive genuine leads in return. Tune in to learn more about how networking and organizational processes are the key to taking your business from ugly to beautiful.    Quotes “If I'm not modeling and doing what I'm telling clients to do, then I have no business telling them to do X, Y, and Z because I'm not doing it.” (14:57-15:08 | Stephanie)  “There are so many people that need my help. They just don't know about me yet.” (27:20-27:24 | Stephanie)  “You really have to find what works for you. What works for me and my personality and how I function isn't going to be the same for someone else.” (30:11-30:19 | Stephanie) “Create a system that captures leads and allows you to follow up.” (43:50-43:55 | Stephanie) Links:   Connect with Stephanie German: So Your Boss Can't Lead: https://www.stephaniegerman.com/so-your-boss-cant-lead/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniegerman/ Website: https://www.stephaniegerman.com/ Amy & Denyse LOVE to network.  Follow us on Instagram @midlifeatthemailbox and personally @AmyLAlex28 and @DenyseRabbat.   Tag yourself listening to our episodes, make us laugh with your midlife moment or share your favorite episode of our show with your friends on Instagram and we will share it back to our community! #midlifemoment   Do you enjoy our podcast? We'd love your help in growing our community. Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Midlife at the Mailbox on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!   One last note, both Amy & Denyse offer coaching services. Are you ready to promote your business or yourself? What about just a heads up that we have dropped a new episode? Sign up to receive emails from Midlife at the Mailbox. https://view.flodesk.com/pages/630a92cd2812b898e99a8f06   Thanks for listening, see you at the Mailbox! Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“I think that we're both better humans and better at life because of it,” Lauren Abney says of the Well/Behaved podcast that she co-founded with best friend Stephanie Biegel. And this is not an overstatement. As self-described connectors, they talk with a variety of experts from the wellness space about everything from astrology to tequila. In turn, those connections have since taken them on as brand advisors and consultants, creating a cycle of service and connection that benefits all involved as it continues to grow. In this way, they get to be a part of a world they would have otherwise been on the outside of. They get to build authority and be part of businesses they are interested in without the risk that comes with founding and running them. What's more, filling their cups through this passion project has made them both better at their full-time jobs. There is room for everyone in the ever-evolving podcast space. The best way to start is with a topic you are just as interested in talking about as you would want an audience to hear. Nothing has to be perfect, people want authenticity. Ask for help from friends who have started podcasts for advice (or at least tell them your plan so they can hold you accountable) or look for educational resources from Upsprout, Anchor, Almost 30, YouTube and Spotify. There is always a reason not to do something, but don't be afraid to jump in. The first step is the most difficult and also the most important. Go for it. Quotes • “The word ‘passion project' really is the right word. It's not a side hustle. (8:27-8:32 | Lauren) • “A lot of people talk about starting a podcast and they say it's easy. It's a lot of work, but it's such a special business in that it's always evolving and there's a ton of potential.” (6:24-6:37 | Stephanie) • “There's now this narrative that everybody has a podcast. Every business has a podcast, every celebrity has a podcast, but they all have their tequila, too. At the end of the day, I think there's space for everyone.” (7:42-7:53 | Lauren) • “It's not about a podcast having the most amount of social followers. People are leaning into the content.” (37:47-37:55 | Stephanie) Connect with Lauren Abney and Stephanie Biegel: Instagram | http://www.instagram.com/wellbehavedpodcast Listen to Well/Behaved here:| https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/well-behaved-podcast/id1481676172 Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Dear FoundHer on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! You can now work with Lindsay 1:1 to build and monetize your community through the same method she used to grow and scale her business. Fill out the form here and set up a FREE 30-minute consultation. Make sure you sign up for Lindsay's newsletter and have all of the takeaways from every podcast episode sent straight to your inbox. PLUS, you'll get a tip every week to help you grow and scale your own business. Don't forget to follow Lindsay on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lindsaypinchuk Use code FoundHer for 50% off your first month with both HiveCast and Fireside Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

In this episode, I have the opportunity to talk with a self made entrepreneur who's followed the footsteps of her amazing dad, and in the journey has discovered what the tips are that the wealthy use to invest to change your life. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So I have been trying to track down this person multiple times and admitted it was my fault. I could not get my calendar right to meet with Stephanie Walter. So glad to have her here with me today. I'm fascinated with her background, what she's done in terms of growing wealth. But before I go any further, Stephanie, welcome. Stephanie Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.  Grant Yes, this is fun to have you here. Your journey is a fascinating one to me, because it's this journey as I reviewed it, of gathering some financial capabilities, but then not resting on that, but rather using it to leverage for future wealth. So I don't want to give that away because I want I want our listeners to hear this cool journey that you've gone on. But let's rewind. Okay, let's uh, we won't go back to where you were raised as a kid. But let's go back to you get out of school, and you're thinking I'm gonna go do some work. And that led you down a certain path? Would you talk about that? Yeah, I did what like most people do, I got it. I just got a regular job with a corporation. Stephanie I had some interest in insurance. So I became a claims adjuster. And, and I sort of moved up the ranks pretty pretty quickly to where I was working kind of as a liaison between the attorneys in that represented the insurance companies and, and the insurance company. So that was, that was really interesting, but just, you know, working in a corporate setting, I remember that, you know, my pivotal point was I was getting a 2% Raise after my superiors had said, what a fantastic job I was. You're welcome all 2% Did you get to keep all that 2%? Or did you know you got to keep?  Grant That's impressive. Yeah. Stephanie And I went home to my Dad, I just bought a house and was like, Dad, I just, you know, look at how much gets taken out. But with taxes, it was a big learning experience. I mean, well, as you know, I did put, you know, seven years into it, but just realize that, you know, if I'm making these 2% races for the rest of my life, you know, what is that going to look like? And my dad was an entrepreneur, actually, he's a second generation entrepreneur. And he's like, Well, you know, what you're gonna get if you stay in this, but if you go out on your own, you know, really what you build will be up to you. And it's your choice to do what you want to do. And I gave my my two week notice probably the next day, did you really? Oh, wow. That's okay. Wow, a woman a decision and action. That's awesome. Grant So, all right, so you gave you gave the two week notice you left, and then you didn't go to the pool? That's for sure. What did you go though? Stephanie Well, I have a I have a lot of relatives and insurance. And that's kind of how I started in doing in claims to begin with. And so I just knew, you know, the company I was really familiar with, went and signed up with them, took all the classes to become an agent and and just, you know, started started working, you know, right off the bat, state and insurance agent for about 16 years.  See, I started that I'm trying to think of like timeframes, I think it was 2004. And then right around that same time, I kind of decided, you know, with the when the bottom fell out to buy some real estate, single family homes, right in an area in Denver, I'm a native, as I mentioned, where I felt like if there would be growth, from Denver that, you know, over time, these would probably be good, good investments to have. And that was in the Sloan's Lake area if people are familiar. And so I became, you know, a untrained landlord, as well as a business owner at the same time, all in one shot. So quick question. So when you did this transition out of the corporate world, into the entrepreneur going to do myself. Grant How many entrepreneur books did you read before you got started? Stephanie You know, I? I didn't read that many.  Grant Yeah, that's like I could tell you just jumped in and went after it. Right? You got going on. Stephanie I think also my my step up in that area was I'd see my dad growing up who had never, who had always had businesses and so to I never saw him work a nine to five job, you know, have a two week vacation or anything like that. So I had a very good example of what an entrepreneur looks like. And so that's probably why I didn't need to read books. I have since read a lot of books.  Grant But yeah, yeah. But you had a role model, you had a mentor to follow after. Alright, so you go through this journey, you run your real, or excuse me, your insurance agency for 16 years. What happened? Stephanie I mean, as time went on, there was you know, also some distaff dissatisfaction. Because you, you know, you really like your clients, and they're doing business because of you. But then there's this big, you know, corporation behind you, mine was Farmers Insurance, who, you know, ultimately makes the decisions based on, you know, the claims and the the rate changes and things like that. So that became kind of frustrating. But then also, you know, again, my dad was, you know, pretty. He passed away, actually, shortly after I started my agency, but I'm sorry, yeah, thank you. But I had, I remembered a lot of things as time went on. I was like, Oh, I remember when Dad said that. And one of the things he always said was, don't put all your eggs in one basket. And that was for me, that meant just, you know, don't continue, farmers was very big on, take a loan out, to keep running your visit business, make it bigger, make it better, all these things, where I just sort of directed my money in my growth into real estate, because I felt like it wasn't so attached to to the business. And I loved real estate. I didn't know much about it. I certainly wasn't very educated about it. Oh, I think it was 2016 I had gotten an invitation to a boot camp and about buying apartments, which I had always been curious about, oh, cool. Went into there. And that's where I first heard the term syndication. And I was I was just blown away, I'd never heard that I loved the idea of a group of people buying something that no one could do on their own. And I from that point on, I was all in there. I did about three years thing me maybe it was only No, I think it was only two years of education, which, you know, was an investment, but you come out of that bait being able to be very knowledgeable about commercial real estate, which is very different than residential real estate residential.  Grant So if I hear you, right, I think you said that this transition to real estate, it was a diversification strategy for you following your dad's counsel, right not to have all your eggs in one basket. You still had the insurance company at least for a while, right? And then then you started investing in the real estate, is that right?  Stephanie Yeah. i And well, I had all I had invested, you know, in the single family homes and they're, you know, through the last crash and then wanted to do the apartments and then in 2016, that really was probably, I mean, I kept running my agency obviously, until actually last year when I Um, my investing had my income from investing had exceeded my, my business income. So I was able to retire, or in my case, just do do a different career for a while. Grant I love that when I saw that in your profile, I thought that was the ultimate, which was to sort of break away. It's that, hey, I'm no longer just going to be a business sort of operator, right? I'm actually going to step aside and let let your income or your assets generate that income for you, right. It's the money's working for you. And I saw that in your notes too, which was a, you said some interesting about the way the wealthy do it, which is the wealthy have their money working for them? Was that always at the forefront of your mind? Or did you sort of discover that along the way?  Stephanie No, that's a that's a big, I think it was big, the aha moment for me. And how I describe it is that I believe most people, and I was one of those most people believed in an accumulation model of money, which meant for most people is I'm going to accumulate the money in my 401k. I never really, you know, went down that path from owning my own business, I wanted to accumulate my money in real estate. But yet my idea was the same, which is I'm going to buy this property and manage it for 30 years until the loan is paid off. And then I will live off of the rents or whatever at that time. But when I started raising money for the syndications, I started becoming friends and, you know, meeting really, very interesting, you know, wealthy people, and just notice that they were doing stuff differently than than I was, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. But after a while of working with them, I realized that they look at their money as a good word is utilization. They're always using their money. They're using their money to give them cash flow. And there was kind of the light bulb that came on for me. Later on. You know, I started doing syndications in 2018, and I think it was the end of 2019 that I started to sell my properties one by one, and invest them in syndications. Because I realized I had these this great big chunk just sitting in and it's really not doing much as far as you know, cash flow, helping me out at all. Whereas, you know, if I just shifted my focus and where I put my money, the returns as far as cash flow, were really significant. Yeah, Major.  Grant Have you ever played that game called cashflow there? I've heard about the Robert Kiyosaki Robert Kiyosaki game. Yeah, I've never played it, you shouldn't play I have a feeling you do really well with it.  Stephanie Yeah.  Grant Excellent with cash flow is king, as you're as you're pointing out, and the ability to get that cash flow lined up and consistently look at money as a tool to deliver the cash flow is critical. So that 401k experience, I've had that same journey where I was putting money I was putting money in in a 401k. And then the first time the market in my career, you know, did this massive dive down, right, and I'm sitting there thinking, I know that there's someone on Wall Street's buying puts against my investment making a ton of money while I'm losing a ton, wait, who came up with this strategy, right? You know, also you could keep your you know, 2% Raise, it is it is a disservice to the working class for sure. So, did you did you ever get involved in the 401k strategy? Or, or did you ultimately just leave it wouldn't? What happened there?  Stephanie Eight, actually, I have my series six, when to be a n 63. So for the audience, that just means that I was registered to sell products, you know, mutual funds and things like that to my database of clients. I never really like to that I never really, I felt the variability and that the training that I was given never seemed to give me a lot of anxiety. And so I never really did much with that. And inevitably let those those licenses go. But though the 401k Actually, I'm in the process of writing a book and there's going to be there's one chapter that's dedicated to the 401k, which I do a great deal, you know of research on and you you pit. You know some really good points on on that. And but it's just letting people question it because there are so many things about the 401 K that are, you know, you're giving you're giving your money to someone else to watch. And they're not doing it for free. And financial institutions want to hold on to your money for as long as they can and give it back, as you know, little as they can. And so you're you're using your money to subsidize things that you probably don't even know your money's doing. And I know, these are hard things to come to in this day and age when it's just like, can I just give my money to this person and have him manage it? Or have the 401k make those decisions? Why do I have to be involved with everything, it really is a significant amount of money that you pay to these financial institutions. And you can do much better on your own. But I won't go into that. That's a whole nother discussion.  Grant That but that's your journey, though. I think your journey is you figured out Wait a minute, I can do something differently with this. And you took control of it right? You did the education you put in the work, you discovered cash flows. The secret to this, let my money work on just building even small incremental cash flow growth and how critical that is in the strategy. Stephanie One other point just quickly is I was watching something on TV last night, and there was several commercials that came on. And they were women. They were geared to women and there they were talking about, you know, women and finances are bad with finances. And the whole message in this commercial was save your money for retirement or whatever. And I was like, I want to just get out the message that it's not saving your money. It's investing your money and learn how to be a good investor, because those are the things that are going to allow you to retire early or retire in not a poverty situation. But in you know, invest and learn how to invest because it isn't as hard as people think it is, you know?  Grant Yeah, absolutely. I love that and are good. I understand. You're right. Did you say the messaging in that TV ad was that women are bad with finances? Is that what you say?  Stephanie Yeah, I think well, they were trying to you know, women were kind of trying to empower themselves by saying, I'm not bad with finances, even though you know, I've been told that women are bad with finances, but it seemed like the solution for them in that commercial was save. Save your money. You say? Like, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, good. Good. Debt should produce cashflow. Right. That's, that's actually that's actually the message right there. One of the things I noticed as I was looking at your background, and the things you've done, as you had made a comment if I if I've got this right. Grant Money myths, you talked about money myths, and I think you just touched on one of those. What other money myths? Have you learned that we hold on to that? Are these incorrect notions that actually hurt us financially? What have you found?  Stephanie There's one very significant one, which is people will say, well, the wealthy people, you know, I've talked to people and they'll be like, Oh, but the reason the people you work with have so much money is because they're willing to take these crazy risks with their money, and stuff like that high risks. That's that's why they got where they are, they are and I say actually, nothing could be further from the truth. The majority of wealthy people invest in extremely conservative things. They, the other myth is, you know, put put your money into the stock market. Many people can't tell you in their mutual funds, what they're invested in, what even one company is that they're invested in, let alone who's who are the team members on that, you know, on board or who's the CEO of the company, they can't tell you anything. Whereas wealthy people they tend to invest if they do invest in businesses, they invest directly in a business, either for themselves or they understand the dynamics of the business and the business plan and they invest that way. If they invest in real estate, they largely do the syndications and they get to know the team that's running, running the syndication. They know what kind of experience they have, what kind of past returns they've done. They do their homework in that sense. But then once they've invested in the team, they tend to invest again and again. And these are very conservative things that they're investing in things that are tangible in value. That's another. That's right. Three things I'm hitting is wealthy people tend to invest in things that have tangible value, which means, you know, an apartment complex Well, let's say, for some reason, it's terribly mismanaged and it goes out of nobody wants to be in it anymore. Well, you still have the building and the land in which you can sell. So there's, there's tangible value there. Grant Okay, so the tangible piece, that's interesting, too, especially in today's world, where digital assets are becoming more and more of a thing, right. In fact, I saw recently, someone talking about digital real estate on one of the online ads, you know, doesn't feel tangible, right. Are all the NFT stuff going on? Right are the crypto so many intangibles today as well? It Do you have any position or thoughts when they do that?  Stephanie I don't because I guess I always take the line if I if I don't understand it, or if it's not something that I want, you know, I guess it comes down to really understanding it. I've had a lot of people explain it to me, but I still don't, you know, the ups and downs, you know, lately, it's been a pretty big crash, you know, people are saying that's a good thing. Okay, I still don't really understand it. And I know that they're planning on, you know, digitizing, then that's, that's probably, you know, not too far away in real estate, you know, 10, I would hope it's going to be 1015 years in the future. I don't know what that looks like. But that's definitely something in the future. I don't think that is wrong. And when I say that the wealthy people invest in, they probably do have some investments in cryptocurrency, but that's probably less than 5% of their portfolio. Great majority of what they're invested in, probably 30% Every year. If you go on to the name of this group is called Tiger 21. And it's, it's for wealthy, wealthy people, I think they have to show a net worth of at least five or $10 million to get in the group. But every year, by agreeing to be in this group, they agreed to release as a group, kind of a asset allocation of all of their investments, and every year, there doesn't change that much. And over 30% is in real estate.  Grant Really. Okay. All right. That's interesting. That's fascinating. One of the things that I noticed as I looked at it now Now the name your company, you're gonna have to help me because is it Erbe Wealth? This Erbe?  Stephanie Well, Erbe Wealth, okay, everybody. Well, thank you Erbe Wealth.  Grant Well, so I'm on your site, I was on your site. And I was checking out. This is really cool. erbewealth.com. And I went to the about page and told my listeners, you should check this out. Stephanie's got this thing called the 15% Plus community. Can you talk about that?  Stephanie Yeah, well, I mean, my partner and I started working together in 2018. And we both realized, as many successful pairings go is that he had some skills in in this in the certain areas, and I had skills in certain areas. And together, we have really done very well together, and we just closed on our 12th deal about two weeks ago. And every single deal that we put together has returned over 15%. But truthfully, every every one that we've done up to this point has returned over 20%. So the person designing my website said, I don't know you might want to just put that down to 15%. But every deal that we have done has had an annualized rate of return of over 20%. So if you're we, our goal is when we hold the money for three to four years, then we'll double your investment in that time. And we have we've done that successfully, and we have a system and we're will we're continuing with it.  Grant That's amazing and that's that's leveraging the syndicated real estate strategy.  Stephanie Yep, that's we buy apartment complexes and a very specific market in the country, we have a very specific buying strategy that allows us to get in and make money when we purchase it, purchase the property. And then we just find areas where there's there's been a lot of growth, and there's been a lot of rent growth and population growth. And I think if anyone's been listening to the news is we know that there's a housing shortage. So we buy in areas where, you know, there's a great deal of population growth and not enough housing,  Grant What is your what is your perfect client look like? What's their profile? Like? Stephanie I mean, I would like it to be more broad than than it is, it's usually, you know, well, to invest in our deals, you need to be accredited, which, you know, that means you need to have a net worth of a million, or you have a $200,000 salary. And so I love working with business owners, that's kind of my thought to I tend to attract a lot our business owners, because, well, one is, they're so busy trying to make their business work, and I'm talking more like smaller business owners, you know, and, you know, trying to manage their company, which they're very passionate about, but business owners tend to not really plan that well for their retirement, because they're just, you know, they're thinking all about this. Yeah. Run on the business constantly, right? Yep. Right. So those are, you know, those are the people I love to work with, just to you know, get them some cash flow, that that is nice, but as well as just having, you know, great returns that they don't have to manage, you know, at all.  Grant So, okay, very good. While you've been very generous with your time, can you give our listeners a place to go to to learn more about you? Yeah, to your website?  Stephanie Yep. That's my website, which is erbewealth.com. There's, I have I think, right now, it's not a lot, but it's about 15 articles that I've written, that just I try to really educate the newer investor that isn't familiar with this type of investing. And then there's a track record of of all of our Not, not cherry cherry pick deals closer, every single deal that we've done together, up until this point, and then you can join, you know, the list the email list to get notifications, I like to really educate my investors, as well as then they get the first, you know, chance of getting the new investment when it comes out. But air Bay, actually is the German word for legacy. And my dad was a second generation, my grandfather came over on the boat right from Germany. And he became an entrepreneur after he paid his dues and did everything he needed to do to become a citizen. And then my dad, you know, followed in his footsteps and was an entrepreneur.  Grant So I was gonna ask you about the backstory on that name. I was trying to figure out Erbe. What is that? Yes, that's awesome. I appreciate that.  Stephanie Yeah, not to my dad, who never you know, saw any of this, but definitely, it's because of him that this has happened. I can tell you have an awesome dad. Really cool.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, any final comments that you want to share? Stephanie No, no, but I'd say you know, just just check on my website. I'm trying to, like I said, working on a book and that that'll be my next. I'm hoping to have it done by the end of summer. So when when it's available, it will be available on my website as well.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, thank you so much for taking the time with us today, everyone.  Thanks for listening to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, check out erbewealth.com.  

In this episode, I have the opportunity to talk with a self made entrepreneur who's followed the footsteps of her amazing dad, and in the journey has discovered what the tips are that the wealthy use to invest to change your life. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So I have been trying to track down this person multiple times and admitted it was my fault. I could not get my calendar right to meet with Stephanie Walter. So glad to have her here with me today. I'm fascinated with her background, what she's done in terms of growing wealth. But before I go any further, Stephanie, welcome. Stephanie Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.  Grant Yes, this is fun to have you here. Your journey is a fascinating one to me, because it's this journey as I reviewed it, of gathering some financial capabilities, but then not resting on that, but rather using it to leverage for future wealth. So I don't want to give that away because I want I want our listeners to hear this cool journey that you've gone on. But let's rewind. Okay, let's uh, we won't go back to where you were raised as a kid. But let's go back to you get out of school, and you're thinking I'm gonna go do some work. And that led you down a certain path? Would you talk about that? Yeah, I did what like most people do, I got it. I just got a regular job with a corporation. Stephanie I had some interest in insurance. So I became a claims adjuster. And, and I sort of moved up the ranks pretty pretty quickly to where I was working kind of as a liaison between the attorneys in that represented the insurance companies and, and the insurance company. So that was, that was really interesting, but just, you know, working in a corporate setting, I remember that, you know, my pivotal point was I was getting a 2% Raise after my superiors had said, what a fantastic job I was. You're welcome all 2% Did you get to keep all that 2%? Or did you know you got to keep?  Grant That's impressive. Yeah. Stephanie And I went home to my Dad, I just bought a house and was like, Dad, I just, you know, look at how much gets taken out. But with taxes, it was a big learning experience. I mean, well, as you know, I did put, you know, seven years into it, but just realize that, you know, if I'm making these 2% races for the rest of my life, you know, what is that going to look like? And my dad was an entrepreneur, actually, he's a second generation entrepreneur. And he's like, Well, you know, what you're gonna get if you stay in this, but if you go out on your own, you know, really what you build will be up to you. And it's your choice to do what you want to do. And I gave my my two week notice probably the next day, did you really? Oh, wow. That's okay. Wow, a woman a decision and action. That's awesome. Grant So, all right, so you gave you gave the two week notice you left, and then you didn't go to the pool? That's for sure. What did you go though? Stephanie Well, I have a I have a lot of relatives and insurance. And that's kind of how I started in doing in claims to begin with. And so I just knew, you know, the company I was really familiar with, went and signed up with them, took all the classes to become an agent and and just, you know, started started working, you know, right off the bat, state and insurance agent for about 16 years.  See, I started that I'm trying to think of like timeframes, I think it was 2004. And then right around that same time, I kind of decided, you know, with the when the bottom fell out to buy some real estate, single family homes, right in an area in Denver, I'm a native, as I mentioned, where I felt like if there would be growth, from Denver that, you know, over time, these would probably be good, good investments to have. And that was in the Sloan's Lake area if people are familiar. And so I became, you know, a untrained landlord, as well as a business owner at the same time, all in one shot. So quick question. So when you did this transition out of the corporate world, into the entrepreneur going to do myself. Grant How many entrepreneur books did you read before you got started? Stephanie You know, I? I didn't read that many.  Grant Yeah, that's like I could tell you just jumped in and went after it. Right? You got going on. Stephanie I think also my my step up in that area was I'd see my dad growing up who had never, who had always had businesses and so to I never saw him work a nine to five job, you know, have a two week vacation or anything like that. So I had a very good example of what an entrepreneur looks like. And so that's probably why I didn't need to read books. I have since read a lot of books.  Grant But yeah, yeah. But you had a role model, you had a mentor to follow after. Alright, so you go through this journey, you run your real, or excuse me, your insurance agency for 16 years. What happened? Stephanie I mean, as time went on, there was you know, also some distaff dissatisfaction. Because you, you know, you really like your clients, and they're doing business because of you. But then there's this big, you know, corporation behind you, mine was Farmers Insurance, who, you know, ultimately makes the decisions based on, you know, the claims and the the rate changes and things like that. So that became kind of frustrating. But then also, you know, again, my dad was, you know, pretty. He passed away, actually, shortly after I started my agency, but I'm sorry, yeah, thank you. But I had, I remembered a lot of things as time went on. I was like, Oh, I remember when Dad said that. And one of the things he always said was, don't put all your eggs in one basket. And that was for me, that meant just, you know, don't continue, farmers was very big on, take a loan out, to keep running your visit business, make it bigger, make it better, all these things, where I just sort of directed my money in my growth into real estate, because I felt like it wasn't so attached to to the business. And I loved real estate. I didn't know much about it. I certainly wasn't very educated about it. Oh, I think it was 2016 I had gotten an invitation to a boot camp and about buying apartments, which I had always been curious about, oh, cool. Went into there. And that's where I first heard the term syndication. And I was I was just blown away, I'd never heard that I loved the idea of a group of people buying something that no one could do on their own. And I from that point on, I was all in there. I did about three years thing me maybe it was only No, I think it was only two years of education, which, you know, was an investment, but you come out of that bait being able to be very knowledgeable about commercial real estate, which is very different than residential real estate residential.  Grant So if I hear you, right, I think you said that this transition to real estate, it was a diversification strategy for you following your dad's counsel, right not to have all your eggs in one basket. You still had the insurance company at least for a while, right? And then then you started investing in the real estate, is that right?  Stephanie Yeah. i And well, I had all I had invested, you know, in the single family homes and they're, you know, through the last crash and then wanted to do the apartments and then in 2016, that really was probably, I mean, I kept running my agency obviously, until actually last year when I Um, my investing had my income from investing had exceeded my, my business income. So I was able to retire, or in my case, just do do a different career for a while. Grant I love that when I saw that in your profile, I thought that was the ultimate, which was to sort of break away. It's that, hey, I'm no longer just going to be a business sort of operator, right? I'm actually going to step aside and let let your income or your assets generate that income for you, right. It's the money's working for you. And I saw that in your notes too, which was a, you said some interesting about the way the wealthy do it, which is the wealthy have their money working for them? Was that always at the forefront of your mind? Or did you sort of discover that along the way?  Stephanie No, that's a that's a big, I think it was big, the aha moment for me. And how I describe it is that I believe most people, and I was one of those most people believed in an accumulation model of money, which meant for most people is I'm going to accumulate the money in my 401k. I never really, you know, went down that path from owning my own business, I wanted to accumulate my money in real estate. But yet my idea was the same, which is I'm going to buy this property and manage it for 30 years until the loan is paid off. And then I will live off of the rents or whatever at that time. But when I started raising money for the syndications, I started becoming friends and, you know, meeting really, very interesting, you know, wealthy people, and just notice that they were doing stuff differently than than I was, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. But after a while of working with them, I realized that they look at their money as a good word is utilization. They're always using their money. They're using their money to give them cash flow. And there was kind of the light bulb that came on for me. Later on. You know, I started doing syndications in 2018, and I think it was the end of 2019 that I started to sell my properties one by one, and invest them in syndications. Because I realized I had these this great big chunk just sitting in and it's really not doing much as far as you know, cash flow, helping me out at all. Whereas, you know, if I just shifted my focus and where I put my money, the returns as far as cash flow, were really significant. Yeah, Major.  Grant Have you ever played that game called cashflow there? I've heard about the Robert Kiyosaki Robert Kiyosaki game. Yeah, I've never played it, you shouldn't play I have a feeling you do really well with it.  Stephanie Yeah.  Grant Excellent with cash flow is king, as you're as you're pointing out, and the ability to get that cash flow lined up and consistently look at money as a tool to deliver the cash flow is critical. So that 401k experience, I've had that same journey where I was putting money I was putting money in in a 401k. And then the first time the market in my career, you know, did this massive dive down, right, and I'm sitting there thinking, I know that there's someone on Wall Street's buying puts against my investment making a ton of money while I'm losing a ton, wait, who came up with this strategy, right? You know, also you could keep your you know, 2% Raise, it is it is a disservice to the working class for sure. So, did you did you ever get involved in the 401k strategy? Or, or did you ultimately just leave it wouldn't? What happened there?  Stephanie Eight, actually, I have my series six, when to be a n 63. So for the audience, that just means that I was registered to sell products, you know, mutual funds and things like that to my database of clients. I never really like to that I never really, I felt the variability and that the training that I was given never seemed to give me a lot of anxiety. And so I never really did much with that. And inevitably let those those licenses go. But though the 401k Actually, I'm in the process of writing a book and there's going to be there's one chapter that's dedicated to the 401k, which I do a great deal, you know of research on and you you pit. You know some really good points on on that. And but it's just letting people question it because there are so many things about the 401 K that are, you know, you're giving you're giving your money to someone else to watch. And they're not doing it for free. And financial institutions want to hold on to your money for as long as they can and give it back, as you know, little as they can. And so you're you're using your money to subsidize things that you probably don't even know your money's doing. And I know, these are hard things to come to in this day and age when it's just like, can I just give my money to this person and have him manage it? Or have the 401k make those decisions? Why do I have to be involved with everything, it really is a significant amount of money that you pay to these financial institutions. And you can do much better on your own. But I won't go into that. That's a whole nother discussion.  Grant That but that's your journey, though. I think your journey is you figured out Wait a minute, I can do something differently with this. And you took control of it right? You did the education you put in the work, you discovered cash flows. The secret to this, let my money work on just building even small incremental cash flow growth and how critical that is in the strategy. Stephanie One other point just quickly is I was watching something on TV last night, and there was several commercials that came on. And they were women. They were geared to women and there they were talking about, you know, women and finances are bad with finances. And the whole message in this commercial was save your money for retirement or whatever. And I was like, I want to just get out the message that it's not saving your money. It's investing your money and learn how to be a good investor, because those are the things that are going to allow you to retire early or retire in not a poverty situation. But in you know, invest and learn how to invest because it isn't as hard as people think it is, you know?  Grant Yeah, absolutely. I love that and are good. I understand. You're right. Did you say the messaging in that TV ad was that women are bad with finances? Is that what you say?  Stephanie Yeah, I think well, they were trying to you know, women were kind of trying to empower themselves by saying, I'm not bad with finances, even though you know, I've been told that women are bad with finances, but it seemed like the solution for them in that commercial was save. Save your money. You say? Like, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, good. Good. Debt should produce cashflow. Right. That's, that's actually that's actually the message right there. One of the things I noticed as I was looking at your background, and the things you've done, as you had made a comment if I if I've got this right. Grant Money myths, you talked about money myths, and I think you just touched on one of those. What other money myths? Have you learned that we hold on to that? Are these incorrect notions that actually hurt us financially? What have you found?  Stephanie There's one very significant one, which is people will say, well, the wealthy people, you know, I've talked to people and they'll be like, Oh, but the reason the people you work with have so much money is because they're willing to take these crazy risks with their money, and stuff like that high risks. That's that's why they got where they are, they are and I say actually, nothing could be further from the truth. The majority of wealthy people invest in extremely conservative things. They, the other myth is, you know, put put your money into the stock market. Many people can't tell you in their mutual funds, what they're invested in, what even one company is that they're invested in, let alone who's who are the team members on that, you know, on board or who's the CEO of the company, they can't tell you anything. Whereas wealthy people they tend to invest if they do invest in businesses, they invest directly in a business, either for themselves or they understand the dynamics of the business and the business plan and they invest that way. If they invest in real estate, they largely do the syndications and they get to know the team that's running, running the syndication. They know what kind of experience they have, what kind of past returns they've done. They do their homework in that sense. But then once they've invested in the team, they tend to invest again and again. And these are very conservative things that they're investing in things that are tangible in value. That's another. That's right. Three things I'm hitting is wealthy people tend to invest in things that have tangible value, which means, you know, an apartment complex Well, let's say, for some reason, it's terribly mismanaged and it goes out of nobody wants to be in it anymore. Well, you still have the building and the land in which you can sell. So there's, there's tangible value there. Grant Okay, so the tangible piece, that's interesting, too, especially in today's world, where digital assets are becoming more and more of a thing, right. In fact, I saw recently, someone talking about digital real estate on one of the online ads, you know, doesn't feel tangible, right. Are all the NFT stuff going on? Right are the crypto so many intangibles today as well? It Do you have any position or thoughts when they do that?  Stephanie I don't because I guess I always take the line if I if I don't understand it, or if it's not something that I want, you know, I guess it comes down to really understanding it. I've had a lot of people explain it to me, but I still don't, you know, the ups and downs, you know, lately, it's been a pretty big crash, you know, people are saying that's a good thing. Okay, I still don't really understand it. And I know that they're planning on, you know, digitizing, then that's, that's probably, you know, not too far away in real estate, you know, 10, I would hope it's going to be 1015 years in the future. I don't know what that looks like. But that's definitely something in the future. I don't think that is wrong. And when I say that the wealthy people invest in, they probably do have some investments in cryptocurrency, but that's probably less than 5% of their portfolio. Great majority of what they're invested in, probably 30% Every year. If you go on to the name of this group is called Tiger 21. And it's, it's for wealthy, wealthy people, I think they have to show a net worth of at least five or $10 million to get in the group. But every year, by agreeing to be in this group, they agreed to release as a group, kind of a asset allocation of all of their investments, and every year, there doesn't change that much. And over 30% is in real estate.  Grant Really. Okay. All right. That's interesting. That's fascinating. One of the things that I noticed as I looked at it now Now the name your company, you're gonna have to help me because is it Erbe Wealth? This Erbe?  Stephanie Well, Erbe Wealth, okay, everybody. Well, thank you Erbe Wealth.  Grant Well, so I'm on your site, I was on your site. And I was checking out. This is really cool. erbewealth.com. And I went to the about page and told my listeners, you should check this out. Stephanie's got this thing called the 15% Plus community. Can you talk about that?  Stephanie Yeah, well, I mean, my partner and I started working together in 2018. And we both realized, as many successful pairings go is that he had some skills in in this in the certain areas, and I had skills in certain areas. And together, we have really done very well together, and we just closed on our 12th deal about two weeks ago. And every single deal that we put together has returned over 15%. But truthfully, every every one that we've done up to this point has returned over 20%. So the person designing my website said, I don't know you might want to just put that down to 15%. But every deal that we have done has had an annualized rate of return of over 20%. So if you're we, our goal is when we hold the money for three to four years, then we'll double your investment in that time. And we have we've done that successfully, and we have a system and we're will we're continuing with it.  Grant That's amazing and that's that's leveraging the syndicated real estate strategy.  Stephanie Yep, that's we buy apartment complexes and a very specific market in the country, we have a very specific buying strategy that allows us to get in and make money when we purchase it, purchase the property. And then we just find areas where there's there's been a lot of growth, and there's been a lot of rent growth and population growth. And I think if anyone's been listening to the news is we know that there's a housing shortage. So we buy in areas where, you know, there's a great deal of population growth and not enough housing,  Grant What is your what is your perfect client look like? What's their profile? Like? Stephanie I mean, I would like it to be more broad than than it is, it's usually, you know, well, to invest in our deals, you need to be accredited, which, you know, that means you need to have a net worth of a million, or you have a $200,000 salary. And so I love working with business owners, that's kind of my thought to I tend to attract a lot our business owners, because, well, one is, they're so busy trying to make their business work, and I'm talking more like smaller business owners, you know, and, you know, trying to manage their company, which they're very passionate about, but business owners tend to not really plan that well for their retirement, because they're just, you know, they're thinking all about this. Yeah. Run on the business constantly, right? Yep. Right. So those are, you know, those are the people I love to work with, just to you know, get them some cash flow, that that is nice, but as well as just having, you know, great returns that they don't have to manage, you know, at all.  Grant So, okay, very good. While you've been very generous with your time, can you give our listeners a place to go to to learn more about you? Yeah, to your website?  Stephanie Yep. That's my website, which is erbewealth.com. There's, I have I think, right now, it's not a lot, but it's about 15 articles that I've written, that just I try to really educate the newer investor that isn't familiar with this type of investing. And then there's a track record of of all of our Not, not cherry cherry pick deals closer, every single deal that we've done together, up until this point, and then you can join, you know, the list the email list to get notifications, I like to really educate my investors, as well as then they get the first, you know, chance of getting the new investment when it comes out. But air Bay, actually is the German word for legacy. And my dad was a second generation, my grandfather came over on the boat right from Germany. And he became an entrepreneur after he paid his dues and did everything he needed to do to become a citizen. And then my dad, you know, followed in his footsteps and was an entrepreneur.  Grant So I was gonna ask you about the backstory on that name. I was trying to figure out Erbe. What is that? Yes, that's awesome. I appreciate that.  Stephanie Yeah, not to my dad, who never you know, saw any of this, but definitely, it's because of him that this has happened. I can tell you have an awesome dad. Really cool.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, any final comments that you want to share? Stephanie No, no, but I'd say you know, just just check on my website. I'm trying to, like I said, working on a book and that that'll be my next. I'm hoping to have it done by the end of summer. So when when it's available, it will be available on my website as well.  Grant That's awesome. Stephanie, thank you so much for taking the time with us today, everyone.  Thanks for listening to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, check out erbewealth.com.  

Confessions of a confident ADHD Mind - tells the journey of parent Stephanie Anne D'Entremont, which started with a comment of her daughter's dance teacher mentioning ADHD is hereditary. Stephanie talks about her discovery, what it brought her and how it helps her not only be her authentic self, but also how this helps her be a better parent of a child with ADHD. To quote Stephanie: “There are no problems, only solutions”. Want a positive insight in the ADHD brain? Stephanie and I got you covered in episode 61 of the Special Needs Supermom Podcast where we talk about her book, what our journey brought us, how rabbit holes make perfectly sense to us, and the plus side of the ADHD brain!  Available on all platforms, from Stitcher to Apple Podcast. Stay sane and stay happy. Nadine Want to have a sneak peek insight the ADHD brain? Get Confessions of a Confident ADHD mind - The Colourful Truth at Stephanie's website www.touchofsas.com. Other great podcasts on ADHD:-       59. Why you should get an ADHD diagnose and when you shouldn't. -       33. Jordan Rawlings - Life with ADHD  -       30. How to go from endless to-do's to TADAAA Want more?-       Check out www.specialneedssupermom.com-       Find your tribe at the private FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/specialneedssupermoms  Sponsors: email specialneedssupermompodcast@gmail.com to get your business visible to the right audience.  #specialneedschild #adhddiagnose #adhdmom #adhdwomen #adhdinsights #specialneedssupermompodcast #specialneedssupermom #specialneedssupermoms 

Everything you put out as a brand should be interesting, it should be relevant to your consumer, and you and your employees should be proud of the final product. So why then are so many brands finding that the people who work so hard on and actually create the marketing materials aren't sharing the end result? Max Summit is a marketing consultant who has worked with some of the biggest brands in the world — Adidas, Lululemon, Athleta, the list goes on — and regardless of the brand, whether they sell online or in brick and mortar, Max knows that true connection with customers start with the connection to the internal employees. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Max discusses all the ways that brands should be doing internal pulse checks and reinventing their mission in order to make their marketing materials hit home with consumers. Plus, she explains how brands should be thinking about ways to become resources for customers beyond just being a provider of goods and services, and she gives examples from her days at Lululemon that any company can learn from and where VR and AR can come into play. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Who's Sharing What?: To gauge the health and success of your company's creative, doing an internal pulse check is necessary. Are employees sharing the work they have produced? Are they proud and willingly talking and posting about the latest project they are working on? Do a post-mortem to gauge how a project went, what aspects were wins and where things could have gone better and allow everyone to share freely and openly how they really feel.Who Knows What?: The boots on the ground at retail stores are often the people with the most knowledge of the consumers and what they want. Brands need to create a more connected communication structure that allows everyone in retail to interact with HQ and the ecommerce team to paint the most holistic view of the customer and then create products and marketing content for them.Who's Engaging with What?: One of the biggest struggles brands face is getting consumers to engage both initially, and long-term. So brands have to hook a consumer quickly, and keep bringing them back with an interesting, exciting, and valuable experience. Virtual and augmented reality experiences are a recent way that brands have been solving this problem, and the creativity and utility that VR and AR offers sets the table for it to be a major way that brands and consumers interact for years to come.  For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie postles, CEO at Mission.org and your host. Today on the show we have Max Summit, who is a brand marketing consultant. Max, welcome to the show.Max:Thanks Stephanie, I'm really happy to be here.Stephanie:I'm happy to have you too. So with you, I want to start back in your personal story. Growing up in Brazil, you have a very interesting story around medical issues and growing up in this very creative household, very intriguing household. So, I want to hear just your background before we dive into what you're doing today.Max:Sure. Absolutely. Let's see, the elevator pitch here. So I was born in Boston, but actually raised in Brazil. I am the proud daughter of a ballerina turned designer my mother, and my father was very musically inclined, he had a lot of passions around art and music even though eventually he really poured I think the majority of his time into tech and entrepreneurship. But my upbringing in Brazil I think was anything but traditional.Max:My stepbrother and I, we used to spend our summers down in the beach barefoot on the sand, falling asleep to the stars at night. My granddad would sometimes pick us up after school on a Friday, we would drive down to the beach and we'd spend the weekend on the boat, which was awesome and really lovely. I think as a child, you take in these experiences as they come but when you live as an adult, you oftentimes, I think, look back and reminisce and you think, "How can I also provide that for the next generation or for myself and my own kids?"Max:So yeah, I think it was a very interesting upbringing, very dynamic, I think absolutely it was not traditional by any means. I think that existence and that relationship that I was taught at a young age to be embracive of nature and be embracive of human experiences I think ultimately led me down to this path in brand marketing unknowingly, but that's where I am today is just really embracing, I think, storytelling and identifying the unique patterns and behaviors of organizations that can really communicate something to the world and to the people around them in a way that I think makes sense for today's audience and today's consumer.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I love that. I'm just having an entire movie playing out in my head, imagining you on the beaches also now I'm like, "I need to go to Brazil. That's the next step for me?"Max:Yeah, it's funny. I'm definitely painting a more poetic existence, I definitely think my brother and I, we were quite mischievous as well as I think that playful character and that playful nature, I think also lends itself well for a role in marketing. Although sometimes in a leadership position, you can't be as playful as you like to be, but it's definitely I think helped me get to where I am today, for sure.Stephanie:I love that. And tell me a bit about, I know you had a medical scare I think it was around 15 or something. And I was reading a quote where you're saying, "That changed the way I thought about everything," and I wanted to hear a bit about that because I'm sure it's impacted even where you're at today.Max:Yeah. Absolutely, as I said I grew up in Brazil, sports I think is very much a part of the culture and the DNA there. I did everything from soccer, to swimming, to [inaudible], and eventually I think I really found my place in volleyball. That was really the sport where I felt most comfortable. Again, I had great mentors and great coaches who identified long-term potential and I think saw an ability for me to do it even professionally at some point in my life and my family and I really invested a lot of time and energy going to games, getting the proper coaching, the proper training. And I was in a final match, a pre-qualifier for you to be on the national team.Max:And I came down from a jump serve and I remember hearing this massive, shattering pop that went from my ankle all the way down to my hip. And essentially I ripped six ligaments on my leg, my achilles, my hip tendon, my ACL and my MCL, you name it and eventually it was just one go. And it was in that recovery phase where in post-op I went through surgery and I was recovering, and we're flying back from Brazil where my leg really began to swell and the pain intensified over the course of the plane ride.Max:And when we landed back in Boston, it had really gotten to a place where it felt extremely uncomfortable and my mother and I, of course back then there wasn't a lot of research and knowledge around clotting and how that happens postoperatively and how flying can sometimes intensify that. So, I think we were really uneducated around some of those medical complications that you can face, so we shrugged it off as it was a 13 hour plane ride, your leg is probably swollen from the compression or decompression.Max:We didn't really think much of it and we went to bed, and I woke up in the middle of the night really screaming, had really intensified pain, not really understanding what was happening. And I remember my mother was really rushing up upstairs because I was calling for her, I was yelling like, "Mom, mom, mom, something's wrong." And when we pulled the sheets over, my leg was gangrene. It was blue, black, every color that you can imagine I think all the capillaries were just exploding subcutaneously.Max:And one of the last things that I remember was actually my mother grabbing me by my shoulders to try to calm me down. And this feeling of almost, I would say I think I'll use this on the interview as well, like a champagne cork when it explodes, it just happens in an instance. And when that sensation happened, everything just melted away and what we found out weeks later when I woke up in the hospital, was that the expansion of the leg was really what's known as a DVT, a deep vein thrombosis.Max:And the clotting had literally originated from my ankle and had gone all the way to my knee and a piece of it dislodged and went into my lung. And when that happens, your body's deprived of oxygen and it shuts down, and I experienced all of this at age 15, which I think for a normal 15 year olds everyone is planning prom, everyone's playing around their first boyfriend. If they're lucky, maybe they're celebrating their one year anniversary with their high school sweetheart. And for me, I spent the majority of my 15 years in a hospital bed at Mass General in Boston.Max:I think the realization of life and how fragile it is and how limited our time is, and it can be on this planet, I think was reintroduced to me at an age where most teenagers aren't thinking of that. And I think it's allowed me to move through the world a little bit more intentionally, and in a way I think I've been seeking a greater sense of purpose since so that if I were to find myself in another hospital bed hopefully I won't have as many regrets or as desires as I thought I had at age 15.Stephanie:Wow. Wow. I have goosebumps with your story right now. I feel like we could just make that the entire episode, talking about how to live an intentional life. Oh my gosh, that's wild. Yeah.Max:Definitely. I think if anything too, COVID has in a way, I think shed light for a lot of individuals. I think a lot of families, a lot of my close friends and even professional mentors, I think everyone has used this as an opportunity to self-assess and to reevaluate and really measure the scales of lifeStephanie:That's amazing story. So, I want to dive into the brand aspect of things. You said an interesting quote early on before the interview, that you stumbled into it, you did not plan to get into this world, but when you look at your roster of brands that you've served, it's wild. So, first talk about how you got into this world and also some logos just to show people you know obviously what you're doing.Max:Sure. I'm definitely lucky, I'm going to say I think luck is a big aspect of it. But yeah, essentially I studied philosophy and English in college which is so bizarre to think that someone who studied those two fields would eventually end up in marketing. But I think the way everything cascaded and fell into play was really at the root of it was just having fantastic leaders and mentors who identified my potential, who I think understood the reward that comes with molding someone and bringing them into the process and giving them the right opportunities that I think really shed light on their personal aspects, but also their professional aspirations.Max:And the way I fell into this industry was, so actually I started in non-profit worlds, really volunteering, taking gigs as they came mostly in the creative parts. I did a lot of pre-production post-production work then I eventually went into graphic design, I did a graphic design residency for about two years and then eventually got pulled into copywriting then from copywriting I did video. So, doing the gamut of all the art functions and I realized in that process it actually sucked at all of them. I was like, I was good enough to have a general understanding at introductory level, but I very quickly on realized that I was never going to be the director of copywriting or the director of photography-Stephanie:Which is a beautiful thing, because it answers a lot of questions for you. I've had many of those experiences where I'm like, "Well thank you life for showing me that's just not my thing and I can move on now know."Max:Yeah, and also it takes a lot of vaping gut too, to tell yourself, "I suck at something."Stephanie:I'm going to own it, I suck.Max:And I need to find something else that I enjoy, but I knew that I wanted to be in a creative function. But I think ultimately what was missing, I think from all those experiences was the afterthought. So, the strategic side of it and I got my foot in the door actually as a freelance graphic designer working at Adidas. And the way that happened was really through networking. So, when I said that I was really hustling and trying to get gigs on the side, that's literally what I was doing, I was identifying meet and greets that's right. I used meet and greets, which back then was meetups.com at work in my local community.Max:I would raise my hand, any volunteer opportunities for races or local community events. At the time I was living in Boston, and Adidas was a big sponsor for the Boston Marathon. And again, I raised my hand and said can I do any graphic design work? Do you guys need help as a volunteer, it was just saying yes until someone and something was willing and ready to bring me on board. And I started as a volunteer graphic designer and from there that role quickly became a little bit more robust in nature. So, one project led to another, it went from being freelance graphic design to, would you like to support us at a photo shoot? Would you like to do some post production work for us, some casting?Max:And things just fell into place, and it took a very wonderful mentor and a very lovely boss like I said, to really identify that potential in me and tapped me on the virtual shoulder and said, "Hey, I think your place is actually in brand, it's not in creative," which like I shared with you guys I knew that already, I sucked at all four fields. But I hadn't yet gotten that golden offer, that golden ticket to come in full time and he offered me a job. He said we're starting a new division at Reebok.Max:At the time he was moving over from the Adidas side onto the BU classic side I'll be overseeing the division there and we need a brand manager would you like to take a chance on life and take a chance on this opportunity? And needless to say, I said, yes. And things really cascaded and fell into place after that. And just to throw some logos out there like you asked from Reebok, I went to lululemon, from lululemon I then joined a much smaller, but reputable brand in Canada called Lolë. And then from Canada, most recently I was the director of marketing over at LA Athleta, which is a [inaudible] company.Stephanie:Wow. Yup, yup. Awesome logos of course, which is why I was like, "You have to name drop them." That's a really fun story about getting that invite and having someone bet on you before you even knew if you could enter into that world. I want to talk about brand in general and defining a strong brand, because you've worked at some amazing companies now who have done just that and they've been able to develop this following and stay true to brand. And you just see the cohesiveness when you look at what they're doing everywhere, you get it instantly. So, what do you think defines a strong brand today? How do you go about building that?Max:It's a great question and it's definitely evolved. I think when I first started my career in this journey working in performance sports, endurance sports, I think it was very much benefit led marketing. So, it was really about the best shoes takes you on the longest run. Sometimes you got the occasional, this is the shoe that was designed by Michael Jordan. There's a little bit of that celebrity persona aspect of it, but when I really began this journey, it was very product marketing. It was very benefits led, it was a very simplified message.Max:I think there were very little brands that understood and promoted, I think mission driven content and purpose led communication. Nike, I think was one of the first in the industry to package that up and present it in a way that was digestible to the consumer. I think where we're at now today is most brands if not all, I think need to have a purpose led message or at least a mission driven DNA aspect of their brand. I think consumers are demanding more out of brands, I think that now more than ever they're equipped with knowledge and the tools to actually do the research.Max:Which I think before, oftentimes again, the brands really held that power. They could really decide if and when to release messages around sustainability, messages around diversity, equity inclusion everything was very much calculated I think 10, 15 years ago in marketing. Now, if consumers can't find that information on day one on your website or through your social channels, they'll walk away and they'll go to another brand whose mission and purpose is more overtly available on site as well as in their social channels.Stephanie:So, when you're approaching brands that maybe don't already have this, how do you go about it in a way that keeps it authentic? Because, throughout all the things that have been happening in the past year or two, maybe you see brands quickly trying to lean into something and be like, "Oh, we're in that space too, we're doing that well." And then a lot of them end up one week later, two weeks later or whatever it is it's gone and that can actually do more harm probably than not having anything at all. So, how do you approach that, because it feels like a tricky space to play in?Max:It is. And I think it's definitely a hard question that you have to ask yourself and your organization, what are you as a company uniquely qualified to give to the world? Because, I think it is that unique nature that me as a brand marketer can package up and I can create a strategy behind and a communications and really elevate that and present that to the rest of the world. I think the brands that are struggling like you mentioned some were having to pull back.Max:Other brands that aren't having those honest conversations with themselves, I think their desire to want to jump on something that is currently mainstream but not necessarily an element that trickles down back to their DNA and their structure and their organization. It doesn't take long before it's a domino effect. It doesn't take long before you see all of the pieces falling at the same place. But I think really identifying what you as a company are most uniquely qualified to deliver to the world and to your customer, I think that is the hardest, if not the most important conversation that you can have and you can also give to your marketer.Stephanie:Yep. Yep. How do you go about measuring how a brand is doing? So, I'm thinking about what consumers say versus how they really feel, a good quote, maybe not a quote, but a summary from the CMO of UPS, they came on another show of ours and they said that they had really good brand recognition, people trusted them, but a lot of their consumers saw them as an old and stodgy company so they had to rethink their marketing because of that. But I'm like, if you would've just heard the first piece of oh, we have a great brand, recognition and trust, I'm just going to stop there, I'm good. Versus, getting into the details of, and it's a yes and they also think this, how do you go about measuring a brand's performance or how the consumers actually view them?Max:I love that quote too, taking a soundbite and turning it into an actionable insight. I will probably say something's that's a little bit more controversial, but that's in my nature.Stephanie:Yeah, I love that.Max:I love internal employee pulse checks. I think for me, the true measure of whether your work is adding any value or is exciting people is whether or not your employees are naturally promoting that work. Very often it does not happen, you would be shocked how many times even sitting in a marketing function living it day in, day out going through the blood, sweat and tears will team members refrain from posting. I think it's just there's very little work that I think is being put out into the world today where employees take pride on wanting to showcase it and really wanting to advocate for it.Max:So, my way of measuring success is if you can take a head count around the table, and if every member from your team posted, shared it, communicated, was proud to wear it as an emblem, I think you've succeeded in your role first and foremost, if you're just relying on that customer, if you're just relying on that external feedback again, I think you failed as an organization and as a mentor and as a leader internally.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I love that. That's really good. I'm thinking about different types of companies that probably definitely have an easier time. I'm thinking the non-profit world, people go there, maybe not always getting paid the highest, but they are there for a mission versus maybe other companies where people are there for the money or it's a trend. How do you think about actually getting that feedback? Are you literally going around the room being like, "Did you share, did you share?" Or how do you do it at scale if it's a team of thousands?Max:It's so great, I love internal surveys. I think anytime I always loved doing postmortems after a campaign or after we deliver an action, because sometimes it doesn't have to be a piece of creative content. It could be a public commitment, that you as an organization decided to make and that structurally made sense. And I've actually found that oftentimes employees are more willing and ready to share public commitments than they are with pieces of content, but anyway to answer your question, I'm a really big advocate of doing postmortems and in those postmortems, I think an internal employee pulse check with a survey I think is most often the best way to conduct that type of review process.Max:I also found that allowing employees to share feedback anonymously, I think helps exponentially and I think people are always more hesitant to put their name behind the feedback, but I realized very quickly in my review process that the moment I allowed people the freedom to actually say what they really thought without having to put their name behind it, I think the amount of feedback that we got was just astronomically higher, I think by nature.Max:I also really love when we are speaking about obtaining external feedback, I think social media has done a great job with that. Depending on which channels your organization is most active in, for me Athletic Apparel socials the epicenter right now, over all the community activities happening. I love doing pulses and customer surveys on Instagram. I think it's such a great way for you to get feedback in real time, which can also be very eye-opening right. Max:So, when you capture your audience's attention, you have a brief second to really engage with them. And if they've already made that first move, I think that to me is a lot more telling for a brand and organization than if you were to conduct customer insights and this extensive six month interview process where you're most likely bringing in individuals that aren't actively engaging with your brand. But on that aspect, I will tip my hat to Instagram I think for introducing that feature a thousand times over again, I've actually used it numerous times, not only for feedback on creative and campaigns that we've brought to market, but also as a way to guide our strategy.Max:So, I love doing polls where we basically ask our community what content would you to see us produce more? And sometimes the answer doesn't have to be very philosophical, it can be very direct, it can be very simple. And the responses that you get can actually dictate the course of almost an entire season. And I definitely have done that before.Stephanie:Yep. So, are you doing that for some of the brands like Athleta, and how did you structure the polls to get actionable feedback?Max:Yes. I think Athleta is a great example, especially during COVID right. It's hard to think back where I was a year and a half ago, but I remember having just moved to San Francisco for the job. I think I was in the office for a total of seven and a half days. The city just shut down and no one knew what to do. The organization didn't know what to do. I think as employees, I think everyone was in a standstill, but again, the community and our audience demanded responses, they demanded actions. And I think our social media team, I think definitely held the grunt of that work, they're at the battlefields, every single day whether it's delivering good news or tapering and bad news.Max:And so, I think there was a lot of immediate and actions that we took and we really utilize social, I think, to dictate the course of how we would, I don't want to use the word market, but really communicate where we were as an organization, because everything was at a standstill for 30 days. And it was really through that engagement and those backend DMs, those poll surveys, and I think we really found power in the voice of our community and we also understood what it really meant as a brand to show up for your community.Max:So, one of the things that quickly became evident as the city started shutting down was that the majority of our members at Athleta were business owners, female owned businesses, which some of that meant that they own their own studios, yoga studios, gyms studios, and those were the first to be impacted by COVID. And so, how do you as a brand support that community in a way that isn't related to product and I think for Athleta, being under the umbrella of Gap Inc we decided to really create a financial resource for a lot of these female owned businesses, where as a member of the Athleta community, you could apply for a grant or a funding that could really for some moms and for some women could really help keep their business afloat for the foreseeable future, which is where we were at the beginning of COVID.Stephanie:I love that. And did you find out more about who needed that help or what help they needed through social media, like you said, through those DMs?Max:I would say a combination of social media and our retail teams. I think especially working in the Apparel industry, we forget that retail is not dead. And if you have a retail structure that is highly connected to your community, they oftentimes know more about your consumer than you do sitting at HQ. And it's really that share-ability from the boots on the ground, I hate using the word bottom up, but I think that's really the mindset.Max:So, let's [inaudible] this top-down mentality and really about what are you hearing? What are customers saying when they're coming to your door? What's the feedback that you're receiving in store? I think that's really pivotal and I think that was really the feedback that was necessary for us to translate that into actionable insights as I call it.Stephanie:It seems there's still going to be so much work around getting those insights and incentivizing the employees to share that, but now consumers are basically coming to any retail shop expecting the same thing that they can get from online. It's like, yeah, of course I should be able to have this. Of course, I should be able to see inventory, talk to you quickly get what I want, but I see there's that catch up to even just going in different stores around Austin right now and being like, "Oh, this still feels like 2019 right now. What are we doing here?" How do you see that evolving?Max:It's also fascinating too, because you bring that up. Your store experience in Austin will probably be much different than a store experience in San Francisco. And even under the context of COVID, I think that's going to feel a lot more amplified as well in today's industry. I think what that touches on is really what I love to refer to as a decentralized model, where I think what we're witnessing in marketing and in omni-channel experiences and retail experiences is these little pockets, these little hubs of community oriented messaging and team structures.Max:So, a retail store is no longer just a retail store, it's actually a space for you to welcome members of your community, I think it's a space for you to engage with local businesses. That was actually an aspect that I love the most about working at lululemon was just how they really understood, I think the power of community and how a retail store could actually be an extension of that local market or that local demographic. And it didn't have to just be a place for business transactions, it didn't have to be a place just for you to go in and buy stretchy yoga pants as everyone likes to say.Max:For some, it could be a resource. I took a trip down to Key West Florida, of course this was before the pandemic happened. And I wanted to know what yoga studio to go to, what coffee shop I should go to, and the first place I went was to a lululemon store and ask their community members, 'Where do you go to work out? Where do you go to get coffee?" And it's just amazing how I think retail environments have become a source of information for a lot of members of the community. And I think the brands that are adapting to that mindset, I think are the ones that will really in the end come out winning and will be stronger I think in today's industry.Stephanie:I love that, such a good example. How does a company do that though? How does the brand pull a piece of the playbook from lululemon and create that community, do it in a way that people actually want to engage with, they trust it where they'll go and ask advice like where's the best coffee shop and buy from it. You essentially nailed every aspect of what every brand probably wants, but what do they do differently to get all of that?Max:I think it comes down to the original question that you asked me, I think a few minutes ago, which is, I think it's just having that honest conversation as an organization as to what are you most uniquely qualified to give to your audience? And I think for lululemon, again, I'm probably not in a place to speak about this because I wasn't there in its inception, but I can only imagine that when the founder sat down and analyzed that exact question, I think they knew that the power rested in community, so they made a conscious choice to really embed that in the organization's structure, as well as their brand DNA.Max:And I think from that brand values the mission statements evolved and it serves as a filter, as you grow and expand, I think for a brand that maybe is not rooted in community and is wanting to maybe shift into that world, I will continuously say that, I think you need to ask yourself are you in a place that you can authentically play in that ecosphere, because if you can't be authentic then I really don't think you should invest the time. I think you should really, really embrace what makes you unique and what it is that you can deliver to a customer in a unique way.Stephanie:Yep. Yep. I love that. So, earlier you were talking about Instagram is where it's at, it's got all these amazing features that can help a brand learn about their audience, answer all the questions they need. What else are you betting on? What other platforms are you bullish on right now?Max:VR, virtual experiences augmented reality. I am so excited for that future. I think if anything, COVID and remote living and brands having to force themselves, how else can we engage with brands that is interested in ecommerce platform and think have really forced us to reconsider other ways to bring customers along the journey and the creative experience. And I think augmented reality has certainly put us in a place I think of a lot of excitement.Max:My favorite to date has really been the Billie Eilish and the Moment Factory partnership, they created an out of this world, no pun intended experience where they really transported her audience and her fan base into this imaginary world. And the question was really what happens to you when you fall asleep? So, it was really this dream like state and it was just, I think, a beautiful representation of what the future of content can look and feel like. And at the same time, I think it really challenges this archaic notion that digital experiences don't create meaningful connection.Max:Which I actually think having VR and having augmented reality has really challenged that way of thinking, because it can absolutely transport you into a different world. It can absolutely create an emotion and it can also create an action. And I think that universe excites me tremendously, and if I could shift my focus and my attention, I think it would really be in a place where I'm playing day in and day out with that type of environment, for sure.Stephanie:Oh, I love that. This is something I've been looking into more from the crypto side and the cities, same, same though. I was learning all about these digital land sales and getting in there early, they're building this entire world and people go and interact there and do essentially commerce in this world, but to think about it from a brand perspective, how can a brand play in VR because Billie Eilish, I get it concert go somewhere to a different land, I love the idea, but if I'm a brand, what opportunities do you see right now?Max:Well, I always think back to yoga of course, because I worked for one of the best yoga brands in the world, but I think again, not wanting to go back to COVID, but I think COVID really shed light on our inability to go outside, and again, be in studio and being in environments that felt very natural to us. And again, I'm speaking in these terms assuming that you're probably the athletic person who does yoga, but if it's not yoga, it could be you wanting to go to a restaurant or a concert or whatever it is.Max:But in the context of yoga I think there were a lot of studios that were actually introducing this notion of virtual reality in which that even though you couldn't physically be present in the yoga studio, you could absolutely be transported there. And I think, again, it was a way to just create that connection and create that meaning and really bring people into one digital world that really felt physical visually.Max:And I think the brands that understand and harness that power, I think they'll start using that as a mechanism potentially to either create content. So, one way that I could think this coming to life, and actually it was one of the first big projects that I worked on at Reebok. At the time Google and YouTube had just started partnering on VR experiences and we did an entire documentary campaign experience, where we brought audiences basically along the ride for four emerging athletes.Max:And it was really a way again, for you to be transported into the physical spaces in which they train day in and day out. And I think for a customer to have that behind the scenes look, it's really one of a kind. If you can imagine this in an era of a Michael Jordan, to have that unfiltered access to an athlete before or after, or even during experience, I think that's a great place to be in, in terms of VR experiences and building that digital world and that digital infrastructure for at least athletic brands, which is where I operate in.Stephanie:Yeah. I can imagine so many different experiences to leverage [inaudible] not just from shopping, that's just the after effect of bringing in customers from all over the world and at the same place, instant way to build community, meet people. I think that's what COVID taught everyone, is we were in our own little bubbles and we'd gotten to this place where the only time you maybe saw people who didn't live near you, was in work meetings. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, but now I need more community."Stephanie:And now it's actually my work friends I need. And so, starting to broaden that, going into a whole different world and being able to have an experience together, you vet your community and then you can also shop while you're there and maybe even change the experience as well, where it's, try that on for me. Oh, I'd like to see a model showing me this outfit who looks like me, this entire thing of shaping where you're at and be able to control it too.Max:I love that. And I think Warby Parker did that.Stephanie:Oh, did they?Max:Yeah. I think before any other brand caught onto that, the idea of essentially creating a virtual experience in which you could try on the products. And I think that notion that you, and I think you actually said something that gave me goosebumps, that idea that you could in real time see the product on someone that looked and felt like you, I think that's really important as well. And I think that's a shift that we're seeing more and more. And I think if anything, I would give credit to VR for building that and putting that at the forefront of conversations and marketing, for sure.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. We're going to be looking back and be like, why did we just look at, oh, this model is 5'4 and 100 pounds. And me being like, okay, so that's not me. So if I was much taller and bigger, how would it look on me? How would it flow? We're going to look back and be like, "Why did we ever buy things based off of one picture? I want to see how it moves and fits and looks on someone." And I should be able to choose that experience if I'm not going in the store and trying it on every time there should be no return rates from our products.Max:I love it, do you want to work in marketing?Stephanie:Let's do it, I'm down. So many ideas I realized on the show, I'll just give everyone ideas and maybe someone will implement one of them. Every one of a thousand is an okay idea of mine. Super fun. Yeah. I love thinking about that stuff. All right. The last thing I want to touch on was what brands are you watching to keep an eye on the industry? Who's doing a really good job when it comes to branding where you're like, "I keep tabs on them every week to see what they're doing?" Maybe someone you've worked for.Max:Oh my God, that's such a hard question. It's interesting, I think I'm going to go outside of my respected industry. I'm really fascinated by what Spotify and Netflix have done, I think to the industry. I think Netflix has really capitalized on an audience-based as well as on a perpetual habit that I think we as consumers are starting to have more and more of in this digital age, and they've just managed to build this empire that I am so in admiration of, I also love what they're doing as a platform in terms of exposing younger audiences to different types of content with documentaries being at the forefront, I am a huge advocate of documentary.Max:In fact, one of my first experiences was working in post-production for documentaries. And I think I give them so much credit for just having that vision, having that ambition. When I think back from where they were 12 years ago or [inaudible] first heard their name and where they are today being nominated for Oscars and just the amount of insights and data that they have on us as an audience and as a viewership and how they translate that data into building out specific content programs and building out specific platforms on their channel, everyone else is chasing them and I think that was a gift.Max:To me, they're the Kleenex of the, they're probably going to hate hearing that, but they've defined online streaming. The idea and the notion of online streaming did not exist before Netflix came into the picture, and all brands now are chasing them and they want to compete. And I think that's a brand that I go to, I think, as a source of inspiration, which is weird to say, maybe it wasn't what you were hoping to hear.Stephanie:Oh, actually, when you said that I'm like, oh, obviously you're watching Formula 1. You're seeing the brand and the content angle and then you can go to the whole platform play, which also equally is inspiring. We've written entire stories of mission around Netflix and how they basically killed off their entire revenue stream to bet on another big one and inspiring all around. So, I love-Max:I agree. It's thinking big, bold and audacious and just watching the ripple effect happen. And I think they're definitely a brand that I go to inspiration. And another one is Spotify, again, I think the brands that excite me are the brands that understand their customers and they're catering their business decisions based on that understanding. There's no better brand that exposes and showcases that as Spotify, even the types of content and the marketing campaigns that they're putting out there all originally from their customer insights comes from data. And you got to give credit, I think, to a tech company like Spotify, where they're consistently operating in this multi dynamic world.Max:Because, if you can only imagine between licensing music rights and managing talent and branching into podcasts as well as music, it's got to be a living nightmare. Every time they have the opportunity to put a piece of campaign out there, a piece of content it's so powerful and you can see it from a share-ability aspect, from an engagement aspect, people are excited, people are waiting for it. Again, it's so simple their marketing but it's so effective and it's done in such an authentic way. Again, it comes back to that topic that you and I were talking about. It's authentic in nature to who they are as a brand, as well as a business. And I really admire them for that.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I love it. Anyone who wants to hear more about Spotify, we had their old CMO on, he's not their CMO now, but Seth, it's a good marketing trends, the podcasts it was really good. I think we did two parts with him and he was epic and you're like, now I know why the company is where it's at now and all of the decisions that were made to get them where they are now. Cool. All right. Well, let's move over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud, this is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Max:Yeah, I'm prepared.Stephanie:Okay. Get amped up. First one. What's up next on your reading list or your podcast queue?Max:Oh, great. Where the Crawdads Sing.Stephanie:Where the crawd... I have not actually heard of this one, I'll have to look at that.Max:I have it right there on my shelf. Yes, I bought it two years ago, It's collected dust, but I've made a commitment to finish it before the end of August. So, that is on my reading list for sure.Stephanie:Wow. Good reads a million votes, 4.8 stars. That's very good one. Cool. All right. If you were to have a podcast or show, TV show, movie, whatever you want it to be, what would it be about, and who would your first episode or guest be?Max:I think I'd have to do a podcast that is centered around people, places and products and how each of those define the course of your existence and how they really shape who you are as a human. And I feel anyone could speak or relate to any one of those elements and [inaudible].Stephanie:I like that. Who should be the sponsor for that? You already probably have a couple in mind.Max:I don't know, I've actually never been asked as a question. I don't know, maybe something will originate here.Stephanie:Yeah. There you go. Here comes the show, anyone who wants to sponsor it, Max is ready for you. What is the biggest disruption coming to ecommerce over the next year?Max:Hands down, virtual experiences.Stephanie:Love it. We already know your love for VR, so that makes sense. Next one, what is the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Max:I've had a lot. I was working at Reebok, I had a really tough day, it was the first time I cried in a bathroom. You know when you just want to hide your tears, you go to-Stephanie:I've been there, corporate life.Max:And I stumbled across someone who worked across from me and she asked me what was wrong. And I said, "Nothing everything will be okay," as we usually do. And the next day when I showed up, she bought me daisies, which she knew were my favorite. And she had a little bouquet of daisies there, and with a little note, and I had only interacted with this person once. And I thought it was just such a genuine kind gesture, and I've carried that moment since.Stephanie:I love that. That shows how such little things can literally impact someone's entire life. And this person listening, I hope they're out there so they can realize well-Max:[inaudible] bad-ass now, so you snagged a good one.Stephanie:I love that. That was great. All right, Maxwell, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing all your brand knowledge, where can people find out more about you and maybe even hire you?Max:So, they could visit me at maxsummit.com. Yes, that's right. I've basically bought out everything that has my name on it.Stephanie:That's a good brand.Max:It was my little own brand marketing.Stephanie:Love it.Max:Yes, and my website you can visit at maxsummit.com. I'm also on LinkedIn again, Max Summit you can always find me. If you Google Max Summit, I'm probably Max Summit, Instagram, Max Summit LinkedIn, Max Summit Twitter, Max Summit at Yahoo, Max Summit at Gmail.Stephanie:There you go, Myspace, all the things.Max:Yeah. I'm Max Summit everything, but I love connecting with people, I love building stories. Even for virtual connects or coffee, it doesn't have to be business related, I'm open and I'm here.Stephanie:I love it. Thanks so much.Max:Thank you.

What's hot today might be out of the zeitgeist tomorrow. Are people still doing goat yoga? Are skinny jeans really the new mom jeans? There are so many trends to keep track of and so many “next big things,” it's impossible to know what's real and what's just a passing fad. For a business, it's important to understand the distinction, and it's even more important to have products that will thrive regardless of the different cycles your industry will run through. Lopa van der Mersch says she has that kind of product with her company, Rasa, which makes a coffee alternative with adaptogen blends. Lopa has a fascinating story, including inadvertently entering into a cult, navigating tricky co-founder relationships, and building up a business to more than $2M in revenue all from her garage.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Lopa explains why she believes that her product will be a game-changer regardless of societal trends, and she breaks down how to spot something phony or bad for you, whether it's in a product or even in a partner or personal relationship. Enjoy this episode! Main Takeaways:Finding the Right Match: When partnering with a co-founder, especially one who is a close friend, some things you should consider are their skills and their ability to resolve conflicts. Ask yourself would you hire this person to do this job if they were not your friend? And think back to how you have handled conflicts with each other in the past. If you are comfortable with the answers to those questions, you can feel more confident in that person as a partner.Culture Shock: Growth in any industry is related to what is happening in common culture. When something is trending, a corresponding industry will rise. Today's society is focused on health and wellness more than in the past, so companies that deal with products in that space are on the rise. But to stay solvent even when the trends change, companies need to ensure that they have products that are worth something and add to a person's life regardless of whether it's trendy or not.Let It Come, But Also Go After It: Striking the right balance between organic growth and focusing energy and money into specific channels is difficult. The key is to make sure that you are diversifying your efforts wherever you choose to try to gain attention. Play with the levers of what's working in one area, but continue to invest elsewhere so that when one thing begins to fail, you have other options. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Stephanie:Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Lopa van der Mersch who currently serves as the founder and CEO of Rasa. Lopa, welcome.Lopa:Hi, great to be here. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:I am very excited to have you on. So your history as we talked about before the show started is very intriguing and I think our guests would love to kind of start there and hear a bit about your background, childhood, all of the things about Lopa.Lopa:All right. Well, let's see how long we have. So it's all a question of where do I start, right? I mean where do we plug in? But I will say I think a good place to plug is around when I was 16, I first heard the word enlightenment, I don't even remember in what context and I was like, that. I want that, whatever that is. And I started reading spiritual books on Taoism and Buddhism and I went from being this incredibly miserable teenager, like the most, like special. I know like everybody's miserable as a teenager, but I was extra. I'm extra about everything. And then I kind of went through this awakening process as I discovered this other dimension to life and I was just hungry and I was positive and I saw beauty everywhere and it was great.Lopa:I started getting into yoga and I kept on finding myself wanting a deeper and deeper relationship with a teacher. And then I did find a guru, like a real guru from a lineage in India and studied with him for a long time and learned a tremendous amount. Spirituality was a huge focus of my life. I've probably done six months of retreats over the years. And for a while three to four hours of meditation practice a day and I was hardcore. And at some point in there, I started to sort of question the navel gazing nature of it all and was like, what else can I give to the world? And what else can I bring to the world? And through serendipity in many ways, I found a job in the bio char industry.Lopa:And for those who aren't familiar, bio char is short for biological charcoal. It's charcoal that you add to soil to both sequester carbon and improve soil quality. And I helped co-found two businesses there. I worked for Richard Branson's Carbon War Room while I was there. I spoke at TEDx. It was like I was in the right place at the right time in an industry that was really growing specifically for its focus on being a potential solution for climate change. And then after, I don't know, five years of eating, breathing, sleeping, sweating bio char, and then practicing and doing retreats when I could and all of that, I left that context and went on and around the world trip with my now husband and just at the very end of that trip, we inadvertently as always happens, got into a cult. And no one knows you're getting into a cult when you're getting into a cult. Nobody's like-Stephanie:Okay, how do I even know if I'm not in one right now then?Lopa:It's a great question. So there's sort of two distinctions of cults. We are all in a certain cult in terms of modern society, in terms of our involvement with media and the way that it shapes the way that we think. All of that could be considered a cult. And depending on how you look or who you talk to, that could be seen as a benign cult or a destructive cult. Many religions are benign cults. But in this context we were in what could be considered a destructive cult or another framing that they use in cult academia is high demand group. And so one of the ways that you can assess if am I in a cult kind of situation, how much demand is there for your time, for your attention, for your devotion, for your money? And in this context, we were pretty much 100% of our time was focused on this cult. My husband was working at the time and found it incredibly hard to maintain his job and all of his duties in the cult context.Stephanie:How did you inadvertently get into it? Did you meet one person and they're like there's this cool thing, it kind of sounds like this, and it's just like a community of just like besties. And then you get in there and it just turns into more and more and more work, or what does that look like?Lopa:Yeah. Yeah, it's always gradations. So we met somebody and she was talking about her experiences with this woman. And often people don't think of women as having that, but it usually there's some kind of narcissistic component to any cult dynamic. Not necessarily though. And I will also say too, just because I think it's important to understand, you can be in a cult of two and another way to look at that is an abusive relationship. So that would be considered like the smallest size of a cult and then bigger ones are what we normally think of when we think of cults. So if you're in a relationship and you're like am I in a cult of two, look at how much demand is on your time and how much are they trying to limit the world around you?Lopa:So yeah, we met this woman, she was telling me about her experiences and they were amazing and mystical and psychedelic in many ways. And I was like, all right, this sounds like what I want. Yeah. I want that magic. I want that other worldliness. And so we went to go see her and she's a very powerful, very charismatic woman and there's real great spiritual teachings in there too. Nobody joins a cult just because they're like, oh, I want to get abused. That sounds great. There's something that draws them in. And usually it's a trauma bond that keeps people in because there's like, oh, today it's a little bit of love and tomorrow I'm going to humiliate you and today, you're the best thing ever. And tomorrow I'm going to question every aspect of your sense of self.Lopa:So it started as this charismatic, interesting, powerful woman who had a lot of energy. I did have psychedelic experiences around her. Cool. That's fun. Without any drugs and it's the context there. And there are some things that I probably should have been like um, she gravels and hisses and speaks in tongues and stuff.Stephanie:A little off putting.Lopa:Yeah, yeah. But I was like, well, everybody around her kind of did it. And so that normalized it and was like, oh, well maybe I just don't get it. And maybe okay, if I start doing that, then I'll be more spiritual too. And all that kind of stuff. And with almost any cult or context, it gets more and more insane literally. It's like an onion. The outer layers and people who just come to a class here and there, they might be like, she's amazing. What are you even talking about? This is not a cult.Lopa:And then as you get deeper and deeper in and closer into that kind of inner circle, that's where things like some of her like... Sorry, I'll go back and say for the first six months or so, it was like bliss. It was amazing. It was just awesome. And I felt so seen and so loved and all of that. And then after some time is when, and in spiritual contexts, you're trying in some way to break your ego down. And so the eco breaking down a scene in this context of like, well, I need this and so I'm being humbled.Stephanie:Yeah, you need that abuse and ripping apart every piece of need because I [inaudible] and I need to be separate from that.Lopa:Exactly. Exactly. So this is part of the growth and I just have to sustain it and all of that, and it can be tricky to assess if that is real, is it really actually good? And you do need to be cut down in some ways or we all have times in our lives where somebody gives us a reflection that we really don't like but we really fricking need. And that can really hurt to let it in. I think a prime present tense example is people beginning to see the embedded racism in their system for white people and I think that's a reflection that none of us really want to hold, but we have to. It's important to hold and that's a big ego, like we have to let the knife go in on that one, for example.Lopa:But then in these more kind of abusive context, it's like you have to look very closely at what is this person's motive? Do they really feel like it's coming from I am actually trying to help you in some way. And she always said that she was and this was all for us and all for love and all of that. And when it came down to it, some of the things that really kind of set us off towards the end was just realizing how incredibly unhumble she was and how unwilling to receive feedback or any kind of bi-directional. She gives a lot of feedback in our direction. And then we're like, are you kind of sitting on a pedestal and then freaks out. And so those were some of our cues. And sometimes it is, you find just this tiny little cue, and then that's the thread that lets it all kind of break down and then you realize, whoa, wait a second, what are we doing? Where are we? Why are we prioritizing every minute of our lives around this person?Stephanie:Wow. Can you get out? Because I always hear when you're in-Lopa:It's hard.Stephanie:It's hard to get out. So what does it look like you trying to get out of that?Lopa:Yeah. I mean, it's different for every person. For us, it was an outside reflection from somebody who was a relative stranger who brought up. He was like, I'm sure she's a really beautiful person, but I see some red flags and I'm just a little bit concerned and then gave some examples of other teachers who were very humble. And I don't know if he specifically chose these teachers because they're very humble or what, but it was a strange experience. My husband and I were both on the phone with him at the time. When we got off the phone, it literally felt like a bubble popped.Stephanie:Wow.Lopa:We were, wow. Okay, something changed. And we felt kind of naked and exposed. And then we were like oh, we just need to give her some feedback. She's kind of lost her humility and she's like, I am that, I am everything. And so we just need to sort of remind her of her humanity a little bit, right, because we're all humans. And there was a process of, we gave that piece of feedback and then over the next three weeks, there were 3000 emails sent between the group. I went back and looked at my gmail and it was like 3006 or something, crazy. 3006 or something absurd. I'm trying to [inaudible] language out of my vocabulary. And my husband really saw it quickly and was out and for me, it took a little bit more time where I was kind of questioning myself, oh, maybe she is the real deal and I just can't take it and all of that.Lopa:And therapy was a really big part of the healing and the reconciliation and finding my core sense of self again, which got adjusted over the course of this whole time. It was like, somebody questions your motive once and you're like, oh no, that's not where I'm coming from. And then they do it again and you're like, what do you mean? And then they keep doing it and keep doing it. And you move a little bit off of your center over and over because you start to question yourself, well, maybe I am this kind of showy person and you start to believe that. And that's gaslighting and that's how that happens. So for me, it was a process of kind of reexamining all of my beliefs and all of the dogmas that I'd picked up in the course of my life and all of these different things to get back to kind of what feels like a core solid sense of self and a lot of therapy.Stephanie:Wow. That's intense. Okay. So you get out of this cult and then what happens after that?Lopa:Yes. Well that year was a doozy. I now call it my own personal 2020. Now that we've had 2020, I'm like, oh, that was my 2015 because yeah, I left the cult, 3000 emails, I had an emergency back surgery while I was pregnant, I moved across the country a week later, lost a family member, had an emergency cesarean birth that was traumatic, I had a huge falling out with my family. I was fried. And so Rasa actually really came out of necessity. Necessity is the mother of invention. I was fried and I was like, I need something to help me keep going because now I had a baby waking me up, really precious little munchkin. And I tried coffee. I've never been a big coffee drinker because it's a little too much for my system. I tried coffee and was like, whoa, okay, irritability, jitters, panic attacks, sleep is even more messed up. No. This is a hard no.Lopa:And so I looked at all the coffee alternatives out there and tried them all. And I was like, really? This is it? Come on, we can do better, right? And I've been a big herb person, just an enthusiast. I love herbs. I've always had lots of jars of herbs in my kitchen and stuff like that. And I was like, can't we just put a bunch of really good herbs in there? And then I started to really think about here, looking at coffee in this coffee cup that people just don't even really question, this ritual of drinking coffee, it's even built into so many aspects of our culture in terms of don't talk to me until I've had my second cup of coffee kind of stuff.Stephanie:Community stuff like let's meet up for coffee.Lopa:Yes, totally, totally. People talking about how coffee is their personality. And I started being like, wow, this is something that people often actually used to override their body signals. So like their body's like, I'm tired. The answer is not rest or downshift a little bit or maybe I need a little time in nature or anything like that. The answer is often coffee.Stephanie:Yeah.Lopa:Coffee is the tool of a society that does not give two shits about anything except for your productivity in a way. And we buy into that and we do that. And I say this also in the context of not saying that I'm sure a lot of people listening, entrepreneurs, people out there in the world are like, no, you do not blah, blah, blah, my cup of coffee. I understand that. I really get it. It's not that coffee is bad or coffee is the devil. It's about how you're relating to it. Just like how you're relating to anything. Like a glass of wine with dinner is not a bad thing. It's a beverage, but if you have a real dependency on that, and that is something that you really need and you have two or three or four, it's all about right relationship fundamentally. So yeah, I started looking at that and I was like, wow, everybody's just drinking coffee, coffee jacks up your central nervous system. It causes a cortisol flood from your adrenals.Lopa:So it's literally triggering a stress response which is part of why you feel so amazing. And because the cortisol is there to help you be able to beat the tiger or run away from the tiger or whatever. And I was like, wow, that doesn't necessarily put us into our best selves. When I am revved up, I'm not necessarily kind of grounded in my best decision-making, my cognitive executive function is not operating from that wide spacious perspective. And so I was like, all right, what if we, and then there was this other kind of aha about coffee is also one of the few accepted bitter tastes in our culture.Lopa:We don't tend to love bitter in our society, but coffee is super bitter. And so as chocolate is the other one. And I was like, so there's a bunch of amazing herbs out there. Some of them taste kind of like crap, but if you stick them into this like rich, robust cup and with other things that are kind of masking the taste, you can actually get people to drink something that's going to be incredibly healthy for them every single day and is actually going to help them regulate their stress response.Lopa:And so that's where at that point, I started working with a herbalist. I love herbs and there's a bit of a trend out there of people just being like, oh, there's all these trendy things out there, let's just go ahead and throw them into a bag and sell them. And herbalism is a very, very long standing tradition. That's the original medicine, the people's medicine and there's a lot of science in there too. And so I think it's really important. It's very different to have a herbalist formulated product versus trendy things in a bag products. And so I worked with a herbalist and they actually did the formula. And so that was five years ago. We were kind of in beta for roughly two years. And then we hard launched in April of 2018 and now I am founder and CEO of a 20-person business and things are going great.Stephanie:Wow. That's amazing. So when thinking about formulating the product, did you go into it already knowing I want to have for sure these things in it, or did you really just relinquish control and just say, you tell me, here's maybe the benefits that I want to see or I want it to taste maybe a little bit bitter or not at all? How did that relationship go about?Lopa:With that original relationships, so that was my original co-founder, who was a very, very dear friend and now has a royalty on her formula and we bought her out. We didn't bring out the best in each other in a business context. So that's really good, if you're going to start a business with a close friend, you really want to look at them from the angle of would I hire this person to do these things? And have I ever gotten into significant conflict with this person and how did we do? And because as soon as you're dealing with money, it becomes almost like a marriage, it's way intense. And just our friction didn't quite work, but so she had these herbs that she was already working with. Lopa:And I made suggestions, I was like, I think we should add this. And I think none of them ended up in the final formula, but I was like, it needs to taste good. It needs to be really functional. It needs to have an energy component. It doesn't have to match coffee because coffee, I think is an unsustainable energy spike. But it does need to give people some kind of lift and I wanted it to be gluten-free, have no natural flavors, anything like that. So it's just herbs. And she went to town, we now have a herbalist on staff who is a clinical herbalist and he has reformulated that same formulation probably 40 times or something. And some of that is we've done some major reformulations to just continue to improve the taste and continue to improve the functionality. And then sometimes there's like, oh, this herb has a sustainability consideration and so we're going to swap that out and, oh, we're going to change it to a different source.Lopa:And then that source has a different taste. And now we have to adjust everything. But we actually taste every single batch of herbs and reformulate every single time based on the strength of the harvest of the herbs because you're always adjusting for climate and things that are totally out of our control and we want to have a consistent taste.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. So the one thing I want to talk about too, and understand more is the industry as a whole around adaptogens because I feel like that word now it seems like it's on every product. And sometimes I'm like, well, how do I know what an adaptogen is? Is it real? Is it not? Because it seems like a trendy thing. And how did you think about that when entering into this industry?Lopa:Yes. Oh man, don't get me started. So first, how do you know what an adaptogen is? And is it real? So these are herbs that have been used for thousands of years in traditional context, in [inaudible], in Chinese medicine. And then in the 1940s, a Russian scientist named Nicola Lazaroff, there we go, thank you. He was basically tasked with giving Russian super soldiers and athletes an edge without a crash. And so he went to work studying all sorts of substances, including herbs and fell on these types of herbs, and he was like, oh, wait a second. This does give them the edge. They can go longer, harder, faster, more, and then they don't have a crash after the fact which is what happens with stimulants. And that's the issue with coffee is you get that crash in the afternoon because it's a kind of an unsustainable lift.Lopa:And so he initially started working with eleuthero which was the original adaptogen. And there are over 3000 studies on eleuthero, it's one of the most studied herbs and all through his research. And that term was coined, I believe, in the early 1950s. And so in order to be called an adaptogen, a herb needs to, we call it the four Ns, it needs to have a normalizing effect on the body. So it helps balance, helps you find homeostasis against environmental, physical, emotional, mental factors, all kinds of stress. It needs to be non-toxic in normal therapeutic doses. So it has to be basically safe. It's not going to, basically safe for most people. It needs to be nonspecific in terms of, there are many herbs where this herb is very good for the liver or this herb is very good for the blood.Lopa:These are herbs that work systemically and holistically in the whole body. And then that relates specifically to number four which is neuro-endocrine. It needs to have an impact on your neuroendocrine system which is your nervous system and your endocrine system coming together. And both of those, I want to go a little bit into the science, but so you have two main pathways that your body uses to communicate that you're under stress which is your hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis and your sympathoadrenal system, hypothalamus pituitary adrenal axis is HPA. And the HPA axis is how your hormones tell your adrenals that there's a stress issue. And then your SAS is neuro-transmitters. And these herbs strengthened those two systems, literally like exercise. So they say that it mimics stress. But it's actually in a good way.Lopa:It's a eustressor. So it's actually like exercise is stressful for our bodies but it's in a good way, because we're getting stronger, we're getting more resilience, all of that, we're getting more flexible. And so adaptogens are literally doing that to your body's stress response system. So they have to have that neuro-endocrine impact as well. And this is also really interesting, just seeing adaptogens trending so much, many companies out there, I think, do not understand that there is a scientific criteria. It's not a marketing term. And there's actually a pretty small class of herbs that are scientifically substantiated as being adaptogens.Stephanie:Yeah, I was going to ask like how many are out there that have that claim against them?Lopa:Yeah. So it depends on who you talk to and who you look at. And we're actually working on coming out with a whole here is the definitive adaptogen guide. Here's what actually has the scientific backing. Here's why we chose these particular herbs based on these scientists and based on what we know and here's the list and here's what gets adaptogen washed. And this is a term that we've coined adaptogen washing where somebody calls something an adaptogens and it's not. So there's about, I think it's 39. And that number is changing based on the science. Sometimes they'll do a few more research studies and be like, oh, actually this one drops off the list or they do a few more research and they're like, okay, this one's definitely on the list. But depending on which scientist you talk to, there's either nine or 12 definitive adaptogens and then roughly 20 to 25 other probable adaptogens or secondary adaptogens.Lopa:And to be generous to the industry, we call anything that is probable, possible, secondary or primary an adaptogen. But many things that we see get mislabeled as adaptogens out there are Chaga is not an adaptogen, lion's mane, all the functional mushrooms, people are like, functional mushrooms are adaptogens. Nope, there's just two. And that is cordyceps and Lingzhi.Stephanie:I love Lingzhi.Lopa:Yeah, turmeric is not an adaptogen. Actually there is one other mushroom that's very little known called [inaudible], I think. But yeah, Chaga is not an adaptogen, lion's mane, turmeric. I've heard Matcha be called an adaptogen, [inaudible]. People just kind of throw it on anything. And this is an interesting case of an industry growing because we're overstressed as a culture. And this was going back to one of your questions about did we know what we wanted to put in that cup? And were we aware of that? We want to put the best stuff ever in a cup and adaptogens are the best stuff ever especially as a superior way to stimulate yourself that's more sustainable. And I believe that they're trending because people need them. That's what's happening right now. And there's a pretty uneducated consumer base.Lopa:And so there's a lot of knowledge to understand. And adaptogens tend to grow in really extreme environments which is why they're expensive. They grow on the tops of mountains, in desert, in these kinds of contexts. And it can be hard to actually get a full harvest out of them in the same way as like you could for other herbs.Stephanie:There's definitely a lot of education needed around this space. And it seems like so many new things are popping up. I mean, I was just at brunch the other day where my friends were talking about Ayurvedic diets and oils to use. And I mean, it was so much, I probably was like oh my gosh, I don't even know how to consume all the things you're telling me because it feels like everything I'm doing, I just never knew about any of this. Well, the same thing with adaptogens and understanding what that is. And there's a whole revolution, I think, of this new kind of nutrition and dieting and way of thinking that is going to take some time to educate the consumers on what that actually is and who's a phony and who's real and what's an actual real product or not.Lopa:Yeah. And what's actually going to have an impact. It wouldn't be such a problem, I think to have adaptogen washing if it didn't like also devalue the herb itself. And to another point, if I gave you something and was like, this has CBD and it doesn't have CBD, you'd be like, what the heck? And some people do call CBD an adaptogen, it's not, and that doesn't make those herbs any less amazing. Just don't mislabel them.Stephanie:Yeah, just use the right words.Lopa:Yeah.Stephanie:So yeah. I completely agree. So when you're starting this company, a lot of founders start out and they're really excited. And then sometimes they're kind of like how's this going? Is this my thing? Get a little distracted, and I want to kind of hear how your journey went with getting really excited about this, knowing you had a solution to something, what did that look like after you had landed on, I want to start this company? Was there any hesitation ever or wondering is this even my thing?Lopa:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's pretty normal. I hope to normalize that for people like, I've definitely had entrepreneurs come to me and be like, I'm not sure if I want to do this anymore and I'm like, that's okay. You'll have those days. It's really hard to create something. And yeah, I mean, my trajectory, let's see, that first two years there was a lot, well, the co-founder conflict really kind of clouded, yeah, my situation for a little bit. And so I was like, well, maybe I should do something else. And maybe I should focus on other things. And I just kind of kept coming back to this and I just kept being like, this is a good idea and I feel like it needs to happen. And I couldn't believe that there wasn't something like this out there. And then, I mean, it's been stressful.Lopa:It is a lot of work and learning how to run a business while running a business is hard. If I were to do this all again, I'd be like, oh, wow, this is going to be a lot easier going forward. I've been the co-founder in a few businesses, but it's very, very different to be actually at the helm. And the buck stops at you kind of thing. And yeah, work-life balance has been tricky. I have two kids now. I actually hard launched Rasa when my second son was four weeks old. Tough planning. It didn't quite go to plan as I'd hoped. And there's definitely a sense of the business would take as much energy as I would possibly give it. My kids would take as much energy as I would possibly give them. And so there's this feeling of, it's never quite enough.Stephanie:The mom guilt. The mom guilt is so real. I feel that [inaudible], yeah, I'm in the house recording. My three kids are usually on the other side of the door and I'll just be like should I be out there with them and having to be like, no, boundaries. Most people, well, not now, but used to go to an office and be away and that's okay. You got work to do. And yeah, work-life balance is definitely a struggle especially working at home now in the same presence as kids and family members and pets and all of that.Lopa:Yeah. We actually originally made the Rasa headquarters out of our garage so that I could be closer to my kids. I just wanted to be able to breastfeed for a bit, put the baby down to a nap, come back. And so we were in my garage until last September. It worked great for that time. And I was like, well, we're running a $2 million business out of my garage. This is solid, it's a small garage. It's not like a big old thing. But it was my garage. We had a storage unit in the back. We had a shipping container in our driveway. We had a shed, it was in all of our basements, pretty much every room had something Rasa-related. And so I was like, all right, we got to get out of here.Stephanie:Yeah. Your neighbors are like, what's this girl doing over there?Lopa:I know. They were like, this zoning. It was not up to code, but we're out now. So forgiveness rather than permission.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah, I agree. So I want to talk a bit about Amazon too because I saw that you were part of the Launchpad program, what do you call it? And I haven't had anyone on the show at least that I know of who's been a part of that. So I want to hear about your experience being on that and spreading the word about Rasa and getting in front of new customers and just being on Amazon in general.Lopa:Yeah. I mean, Amazon in general, Amazon has been a really solid channel for us, which is part of why we went with the Launchpad program. It's been just very consistent. The growth has been pretty steady and predictable. The customers there have been great too. We have some really consistent customer retention on Amazon which I think is not what we really expected. We have a lot of subscribers there. And so we were on the Launchpad program for about a year. We actually are just in the process of pulling out of it. They do take a 5% cut and basically, I think if you have somebody on the team who's really managing it closely and is really taking advantage of every single opportunity that they have, I think it's probably a really good program. We did not have that.Stephanie:What are the opportunities that they provide within that program?Lopa:Yeah, there's a lot of promotional potential. Some of those come with additional revenue cut. Some of those just require additional marketing planning and that sort of thing. And I'll say we have tended to... We actually for about the last year have really under indexed on Amazon. I think we could have autopiloted it. And we were like, oh, well Launchpad will be good and blah, blah, blah. So we may actually go back to the Launchpad program once we have our Amazon growth strategy a little bit more, but a lot of promotional opportunities, get on the front page. You get chances to do extra deals. They have the lightning deals and I don't manage the Amazon super closely. So our Amazon guy could tell you a little bit more, but yeah, a lot of emails came through where I was like, huh, we should probably do that, but we don't really have time. We don't really have the marketing bandwidth.Lopa:And I think now I look back and we're like, well, we want that 5% margin back. We can put that into ad spend. And I think that that's going to be a better use of that capital at this time. And if we had actually been taking advantage of all those emails that came through, you can get a dedicated account manager who will help audit your ad spend and all that stuff. If we were doing that, I think it would have been a great program for us. And it was positive, we've seen growth, but not quite enough to warrant 5% on every bag.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. That's quite a hefty margin to take out. For them to do-Lopa:On top of their original 30%, yeah.Stephanie:Ooh, that's a lot. So you pulled back to focus more on ad spend. I mean, what kind of channels were you relying on to get the word out? Because even though it is a big trend around this industry, I still feel like it's pretty niche to get in front of the right people who understand it and are ready to buy around this. I think it might be a little harder of a sell to get in front of someone who has to do the research like me to be like, well, what is an adaptogen? Is a good for me? And how did you go about finding the right people in the platform that'll work for you?Lopa:Yeah, well, we're really going after the coffee market and adaptogens are the way that we're doing that. So adaptogens right now, it's a $25 billion industry, but most of that's in Asia and because they have a cultural context around using these herbs in daily life that we just don't have. And so we are actually bringing a cultural context for these herbs through the coffee ritual and coffees is a $465 billion market. So we like that TAM a lot better. So that said, most of our customers are actually coming to us for a coffee alternative and then they're like, oh, it actually supplies all these benefits as well. And I think that's one of the things that we've been kind of working on and finding our positioning and our messaging in terms of yes, it's a beverage and it's delicious and it's intended to replace entirely or replace partially your coffee ritual.Lopa:But then it also has all these ancillary benefits, not ancillary. I mean, we get incredible customer reviews that say that it's just life changing. And so I think there's a way, and I think that's part of why we get an amazing long tail retention on our customers because we're delivering on more than they expected in terms of the impact. But most of our customers, we've been pretty heavily focused on Facebook. That's been our major scaling channel and that's a really interesting context right now because the iOS 14 change. And I think also with the pandemic ending, the buying patterns ending we hope, the buying patterns are shifting a bit as well. And so people are going back to their third spaces. They're going back out in the world a bit more.Lopa:And CACs are only going up. They're not coming down ever. So we sort of had a little... Facebook's been amazing for us. And I have had this little bug in the back of my head for like two years where I've been like we can't put all our eggs in this basket. We had one ad that, I mean, I think this one particular ad had done a million dollars in revenue for us or something. And it was based on something, it was a relevancy score. So in Facebook, they were categorizing by relevancy and it had a 10 out of 10 relevancy and we were like we could just dump money into it and it would just keep returning money. And it was amazing. And then they dropped the relevancy score as a factor all in their algorithm. And it was like our cash cow has died. It just suddenly, because the way the algorithm was prioritizing, it just didn't deliver in the same way. And we were like, wow, we're at the helm or we're at the whim of something that we have very little control over.Lopa:And so we're starting a little bit of a channel diversification strategy just to have a little bit more health in terms of what we're doing in the business.Stephanie:So many companies start out that way that I can think of and I think it's perfectly okay to rely on one channel. I mean, I've talked to a couple where they're like in chat within Instagram DMs, or Facebook chat, that's where our company's at. And I mean, we kind of went through that at mission too. We were very reliant on media and we became the top on there. That was where our business model was headed until one day they made a few changes and we're like, whoa, that just disrupted our entire business. Why are we relying on someone else's platform? We need to get off here and diversify. What kind of channels are you trying out now? And how did that make you rethink, relying on any platform in general?Lopa:Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. If you're diversified, then you have a little bit of a hedge. And so if something changes, you're like, cool, we're going to just flex the lever a little bit more over here. So we've been very under-indexed on B2B wholesale in general. We've never had a salesperson and we just considered it part of customer care. And if somebody came to us and was like, we'd like to order for our store, we'd be great. And that was kind of it. And so now just knowing that you can really scale a business that way, too. We're going to be investing in that a bit more. So we're in like, I don't know something like 600 retail stores at this point and-Lopa:So yeah, wholesale, actually investing in growth on Amazon, PR is something that we've also done almost none of. So actually working to in-house PR, I have come to kind of think of PR agencies as black holes where money goes to die. So I'm really keen on in-housing it. And influencers is also something that we've been very under-indexed on, just haven't put anything towards and it's all been organic, which is great. And we've had a lot of organic movement in all these things, but there's a difference between letting it come to you versus like, okay, now we're going to really focus on this. And then we have some international opportunities opening up as well.Stephanie:Cool. That's amazing. All right. So I know we're getting short on time and I do want to talk about crowdfunding and I know you mentioned you were very excited about that. So I want to dive into why are you guys crowdfunding? Why do you choose that approach? And you also mentioned innovative marketing ideas around that so. I want to hear all the things.Lopa:Yes. Yes. So DTC has allowed this new level of customer relationships and we have a lot of intimacy all across our communications and people always tell us they feel like they're talking to a friend instead of a company. And we love that and incredible brand love as well. And we feel like the logical next step of that is becoming crowdfunded or community-owned. And we've had lots of investors come and knock on our door and be very interested in what we've done and what we've been able to build, bootstrapped especially for a CPG business. And the thing that just kind of keeps coming up and especially for VCs, VCs are very extractive capital. And we actually talk about it internally. Like VCs are the coffee of money.Lopa:Coffee is an extractive energy source for your body. VCs are an energy extractive source of money for your business. And we do a lot of things differently. In our business, our culture is, I think pretty remarkable. We're doing a lot around sustainability. There's a lot of things where we're prioritizing a triple bottom line instead of a bottom line, just the bottom line. And we get nervous about the idea of getting into a relationship with somebody who's like, well, yeah, you can't treat your employees that way and you can't do this and that.Stephanie:You've got to return the fund to be worth it to me.Lopa:Exactly. Exactly. And we know that our customers love the way that we do things and want us to be more and more that way. So we're very excited about that and they just changed the regulations so that you can raise 5 million via crowdfunding instead of just one per year. And so we're very excited about, we're going to be hopefully one of the first to actually close a $5 million round crowdfunding. And some of it, we've just realized like damn, these businesses can be real capital intensive. And we're trying to do this with capital constraints which means people constraints and bandwidth constraints. And then we're trying to do a very high integrity product with a lot of value in the product and compostable packaging and just fair trade as much as we can all across the business and treating our employees really well.Lopa:And all of these different things that just does cost money, cost more. And then we're like, well, we want to grow as well. We want to invest in growth. So we've been basically break even except for investment in growth for a while. And we were like, if we had more capital to invest in growth, we know that the business is financially sustainable and really solid. And so if we just can get that growth capital and so that's basically why we're doing it. And when you're building a brand that people love, going into some of our marketing strategies around this, when you're building a brand that people really love, and then they're also becoming owners of that brand, I think there's a big question about what's secret, and what's not secret.Lopa:And there's a lot of secrecy in the CPG world and in business in general. And we are seeing that the more transparent we are, the more our customers just eat it up. And they love the behind the scenes about the business. And they love just knowing about why we made a certain change in our packaging and stuff like that. That's where we get the most responses. It's kind of crazy. And so we are shifting towards being more and more open about margins, our run rate and including people in these details allows them to be included in this incredible journey of launching this product. And so we're going to be doing a lot more around this. We're kind of working on building the internal content engine to be able to just be a more and more transparent and share more and more about what it takes to do this and the hard decisions and the hard moments where I'm like, oh my God, my kids and this and the business and all that stuff.Lopa:But our customer reviews are incredible, so incredible. We have to be editing them for the FDA. We've had people say that they had a Rasa baby, it's made them more patient with their partners and their kids and all that. And that's why we got into plant medicine. We knew the power of these things. And so I think crowdfunding is a way of getting people invested in the business and having the business actually be like herbs were originally the medicine for the people and now it's going to be a business about herbs for the people as well. And so it just feels like it's really perfectly aligned.Stephanie:I love that. I mean, I think the idea too around transparency, not only does that give your customers things to look at and engage with you, but I think it also invites help too. If someone sees oh, your margins are around this. Let me come in and help you because I think maybe in the CPG industry, maybe they should be around here. I've got this idea around logistics that might help you enhance that. So I think the more you share, the more other people might come in and be able to actually help and want to lift everyone up in the process.Lopa:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think in the industry, that is really valuable. Sometimes there's always a question of how much feedback you get from where. And sometimes you're like, wow, that's a lot of people that want to help and I don't really know what they're doing.Lopa:But I mean, that said, we listen to every piece of feedback too. And I think going back to the cult conversation a little bit, when you get feedback that you don't like, you have to look at it and say like, okay, if 1% of this is true, what part would be true? And then look at that. And that's one of the nice things too about DTC is that we have been able to actually iterate our products very quickly based on customer feedback. And I think having more transparency also means that we're going to be able to crowdsource product ideas and reformulate things to match people's needs more and stuff like that which we're really excited about.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Super exciting. All right. Let's do a quick lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Lopa:Yes.Stephanie:All right. What's your favorite Rasa drink to enjoy in the morning?Lopa:Super Happy Sunshine.Stephanie:Okay. Awesome. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Lopa:It would be about cultivating energy intelligence, emotional intelligence but energy intelligence. Yeah. And my first guest is a great question. I have not even thought about that. I mean, if I could just wave a magic wand, I would actually have Brené Brown because we don't think of the way that we hold ourselves in our vulnerability as being actually kinks on our energy. And I think that her work around vulnerability and shame is actually very energy liberating.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I love her. What's up next on your reading list or your podcasts list?Lopa:Oh man. I have such a long list. I'm in the middle of The hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz. And I'm also reading a book about the ancient Indian martial arts that I practice called [inaudible] and I'm in the middle of like five books right now. Another great one, oh, just Hunt, Gather, Parent.Stephanie:Oh, I'm reading that now.Lopa:It's so good.Stephanie:So good. Yeah.Lopa:Oh my God, so good.Stephanie:It makes you-Lopa:And it's working.Stephanie:[inaudible] parenting in general like oh, why are we basing our parenting advice off? What does she say? The past 100 years or something when there's time-tested things that work for thousands of years that we can tap into and around the stress of the parenting right now is only on essentially the mom or mom and dad where we're doing the same work that used to be 15 people, grandparents, cousins, aunts, and uncles. And I'm like, there's going to be a shift though. I think it's going to start heading in that direction again.Lopa:Yeah, I think so too. And on the podcast, Fred, I'll say, I actually was looking at your list of podcasts and I was like, oh my God, I need to be listening to all of these. So well done. I love business-Stephanie:[inaudible] podcast, hey. I love that. Yeah, check them out. They're good ones. Launching new ones all the time too. And the last one, what is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten? It can be business, personal or from the cult, whatever comes to mind.Lopa:Best piece of advice I've ever gotten. Lopa:What comes up is that purpose is a red herring and that so many of us, I think in this, it may be a little bit less for your audience. But I think that this quest for what am I supposed to do and what is my purpose? And I can only really do something once I have my purpose. The advice was stop wallowing and trying to find your purpose and do something. And you will find your purpose in the process of acting. You will find the things that don't feel aligned and then you'll adjust. And so it's about help someone and help something and you'll find purpose in the process of doing.Stephanie:That's amazing advice. And that's actually perfect for our audience right now. I mean, people trying to start businesses and I mean, you probably went through this too. I know I have of, is this my thing? Am I passionate about this? Do I want to do this for the next 100 years? And I love that. Just start doing it and you will figure it out.Lopa:Yeah.Stephanie:That's perfect. All right, Lopa, well, I've loved having you on. It's been such an engaging conversation. It's really fun to hear about your life and Rasa. Where can people find out more about you and your company?Lopa:We are at wearerasa.com and we actually have a discount code for you guys. If you use the code upnext, you'll get 20% off your order. And we're also on Amazon and we're on Instagram and Facebook at We Are Rasa.Stephanie:Amazing. I'm definitely using that code. I cannot wait to try it. So thank you so much for joining us. We'll have to have you back for round two to hear how the company is going because this is such a pleasure.Lopa:I would love that. Thank you.

If you look on Twitter or do a quick Google search, you'll find a ton of chatter about the foolproof DTC playbook. Everyone has ideas about the surefire ways that young DTC brands should be setting themselves up for success. Alex Kubo is here to tell you that those playbooks aren't as written in stone as you might think. Alex is the VP of ecommerce and digital marketing at Burrow, a DTC furniture brand, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explained how and why the Burrow team threw out the playbook when certain aspects of it fell flat. For example, Alex talks about the lessons they learned about the signals that pricing sends, and why it's critical to put the right price on your product to attract the right customer even if that means pricing higher than the playbook says. Alex also dives into what it means to actually be customer centric and how Burrow stays in constant communication with customers. Plus, we discuss why marketing toward buying events or using a spray and pray strategy across a dozen channels is about as useful as setting your money on fire. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Sending The Right Signals: How you price your product or service is one of the most significant ways you signal to customers who you are as a brand and what value you bring. If you price too low, you risk being lumped in with brands that don't necessarily fit with the type of products or value you bring to the table.More Than Words: Saying you are customer-centric and actually being customer-centric are two very different things. To be truly customer-centric requires regularly talking to and learning from your customers and then building experiences and products based on those conversations. You can't just assume you know what customers want, you have to do the work to find out.A Horse of a Different Color: There are best practices and guidelines that many companies follow to get themselves off the ground. Sometimes those playbooks work, but in other cases, you have to toss out what everyone says is the right strategy and go in a new direction. Whether that's in your social strategy, your pricing, or how you're getting feedback from customers, don't be afraid to buck tradition and do something different.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome to Up Next In Commerce. I'm your host Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today on the show, we have Alex Kubo joining us, who currently serves as the VP of E-Commerce and Digital Marketing at Burrow. Alex, welcome.Alex:Thanks, Stephanie. Excited to be here.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm very excited to have you here. It was cool reading a bit about Burrow's background and starting at Y Combinator, and I was thinking it might be fun to start there, back in 2016. What did it look like starting the company, and then we can get into today?Alex:Totally. So, I was fortunate that I actually met the two co-founders of Burrow while were on the same business school program in Philadelphia. And back in the fall of 2015, actually, Kabeer and Stephen, the two co-founders and my classmates were both furnishing their apartments as they moved into Philadelphia for the program, and they had two very distinct but related experiences. Kabeer purchased a sofa from West Elm in Philly, and it wasn't going to arrive for about 12 to 16 weeks, which I think, nowadays, people are pretty used to seeing those timelines, but Originally, it was like, "Whoa, this is not Amazon." And so, Kabeer actually used the cart, the dolly in his apartment building and rolled it to West Elm, and picked up a floor model and brought it home, because the lead time was going to be longer than his first semester, so obviously, that was not going to be a great experience.Alex:Stephen went the classic IKEA route, right, where you don't come in to grad school with a ton of money and need to furnish your space quickly. And so he did that, and then ultimately, it's a waste down the road, right? IKEA furniture, you can't move because of the quality of the materials and that sort of thing.Stephanie:[crosstalk]. Yeah.Alex:Yeah. So, the question ultimately became, why can't you have that higher end quality that you might find at a West Elm, or Pottery Barn, or Crate and Barrel, but the convenience, the modern day conveniences that Amazon has made the default expectation of consumers, so fast, and free shipping, and easy delivery process, and be able to modularize that design so that you can set it up and not have to deal with like the IKEA hex key or any of these really cumbersome assembly processes? And so, that concept was born. And out of that came a series of product innovation that ultimately, Stephen and Kabeer got into Y Combinator with just a pitch deck and no product and used that accelerator to develop the product, to prototype the product, and ship it.Alex:A funny little anecdote is that from the time they incorporated the company to the time they shipped their first product was shorter than the period of time that West Elm quoted Kabeer to ship his first couch.Stephanie:Oh, wow. That's great.Alex:Yeah.Stephanie:And what were you doing when they were going through Y Combinator?Alex:I was actually working on my own concept in the health and fitness space and ended up calling time on it right towards the end of the summer because of a number of challenges that I was having on my end, and joined up with Stephen and Kabeer to help build out the demand side of the business. And I had a relatively intimate knowledge of the business and where they were at because we were in all the same classes working on our own businesses. And I had helped them tangentially with sourcing components during our first year of the program, because I have a background in mechanical engineering and they didn't have any background in physical hardware. And so, there was already the groundwork for relationship. And then I was trying to move my own discipline into more of a consumer facing and ground level marketing and product marketing role, so it actually made a lot of sense.Alex:So, we set it up as a brief relationship to make sure that the working relationship was there, which it turned out very quickly, it was. So, I have been tasked or had been tasked with basically just building demand and ran with it since.Stephanie:So, since then, what does the world look like now compared to when you started and you were building up demand? I mean, I'm sure you guys were trying out Facebook and all the traditional platforms that everyone's like, "Every brand should be on Instagram and Facebook, and if you're not here, where are you?" What did it look like then and now?Alex:So, now it's a much more disciplined and much more properly positioned business than it was in the beginning. Two critical mistakes that were good healthy mistakes to make in the early days were, number one, brand positioning and product positioning. We had this idea in our head that... and sort of the classic Warby Parker pricing story of like, they wanted to price it $45, but their advisors and professors advised them not to do that because it would signal the wrong value to the customer. We had a similar experience where, for some reason in our heads, we had to price our couch under $1,000. And we made that decision because we wanted to be hyper competitive on price and make it the default, obvious solution.Alex:The problem that we failed to acknowledge is that consumers nowadays have very limited time to understand the differences and nuances between products. They're not stupid, they're not lazy, but they do have very limited time. And so, you have to be very clear and explicit with them, and part of that is signaling. And one of the most powerful parts of marketing that I think is most often overlooked is a focus on pricing and what that does from a positioning standpoint.Alex:When a lot of shoppers were seeing our product under $1,000 and the fact that it shipped in boxes, which we were very forward with, because we focus so much on the attributes of the product and less on the experience around it, which is another step in our evolution, that people immediately equated those two things, low price and ships in boxes, with a more expensive version of IKEA. So, then it was us talking to IKEA shoppers, and you're not going to convince an IKEA shopper to spend another 300, $400 on a sofa, right? What you need to do is talk to the West Elm shopper, the Pottery Barn shopper, the Crate and Barrel shopper.Alex:So, we actually, for a number reasons, increased prices in late 2017, about half a year after we launched.Stephanie:How much did you increase them by?Alex:Originally, the sofa was priced at 950. By the way, much different cogs, profile as well, at that point. We increased the price to 1,095 to start. So, it was a pretty meaningful difference on a percentage basis, and especially when you talk about margins.Alex:Interestingly enough, everything you learned in microeconomics about the relationship with the supply and demand curves went out the window, because we increased the price and demand shot through the roof.Stephanie:Wow. Did you get it in front of new people? What else were you doing to get it-Alex:I mean, we were doing a lot of the same things in terms of building full funnel architecture on paid social and paid search and that sort of thing, and again, applying a lot of those early D2C playbook type approaches, which ultimately turned out to not be the best approach for us. But nothing changed substantially from a marketing perspective. We were still reaching a lot of the same people, it's just that we were now signaling to those people that we belonged in the comparison set with a higher quality piece of furniture. That helps also, because a lot of our value props, it's much easier to convince somebody who has shopped at one of these higher end brands and had to wait super long or had to go to a showroom and deal with a frustrating shopping experience with this overbearing sales associate, pay for shipping, and ultimately, have to be home to get a piece of furniture delivered, and either take a day off from work. Again, much different world back then than it was today.Alex:But it's much easier to talk to those kinds of people who've experienced those pain points and tell them, "I'm going to take all of that pain away," than it is to talk to somebody who's never experienced those pain points and doesn't need the higher quality piece of furniture, again, the IKEA shopper, and talk to them about all these future pain points that they've never experienced but that we can help them avoid. That's maybe one of the biggest lessons learned, is that people do not think much about the future. They're often very, very focused on the present. And so, as much as you want to talk about why you should go to the doctor every year, why should you should go to the dentist every six months, it's like, people are not going to react until they have a problem.Alex:So, we've experimented a bunch with what is the leading value prop. So, we talked to consumers, and one of the ones that we talked about very early was this concept of modularity and how, when you move into your next apartment, you can just purchase another seat instead of buying a whole new sofa to accommodate the new space, or rearrange the existing configuration that you have to fit the new space requirements. Problem is, people are not thinking about that. They don't really care. They can't think that far in advance of two to three to four years down the road when moving into the next apartment. And so, we've deprioritized that in terms of communication and lead with other things that are more immediate, like fast and free shipping.Stephanie:Yeah. Got it. So, you're mentioning earlier that the D2C playbook didn't work for you guys, where now, even these days, you can search that and you'll find a bunch of the playbooks and people are still saying like, "This is what you need to do to be successful." What were some other things that you did back then that you completely reversed and you were like, "This doesn't work for us"?Alex:Yeah. So, I think, first, was not acknowledging how complex and lengthy the shopping journey is for a piece of furniture online. Obviously, it's a big investment, it's also mutually exclusive with something else, your home, right? Let alone the high price, you're not going to just buy another couch when you have an existing one in your home, right? You need to think about getting that out or you have to do it right at the right moment with a moving event or something like that.Alex:So, the first thing that we had to realize is that what we can't do is architect our funnel around existing attribution technology or just rely on optimizing towards purchase events in digital channels. What we had to do is to look upstream and find correlations and causation between different upstream, midstream, and bottom stream events to really architect a healthy full funnel. And so, most of our campaigns are not architected towards purchase events, they're architected towards or optimized towards something more upstream.Stephanie:[crosstalk] for a couple examples.Alex:Yeah. I guess one interesting one that we've learned over time is there's a pretty clear correlation between add to cart and purchase, and the cart abandonment rate is relatively steady. We do things over time, obviously, to improve that, but it's not something that fluctuates wildly over time. And so, one of the things we can do is just optimize towards an add to cart versus a purchase.Alex:The other benefit of that is it often can happen in the first session. So, when you see a lot of the privacy restrictions right now and a lot of the issues with cookies going away and that sort of thing, it helps us. We've actually always been architected to bear that burden a little bit better than some of our other D2C peers.Alex:And then the other thing, besides the purchase journey, was also that we were just doing way too many things at once. We had, and we still have today, a very lean team. The difference between now and then is that back then, we thought the best approach was to spray as wide as we possibly could and activate 10 to 15 channels with me managing all of them, by the way, and not doing a good job.Stephanie:It sounds very chaotic and not fun.Alex:Yeah. Not at all, not at all. And only until we really peeled back and just focused on a handful of things and did them really, really well, that's when we actually started churning results, but more importantly, honestly, that's when we started actually learning what was working. Because previously, we were just spending a lot of money, we were generating sales, but we didn't really have a clear idea of where they were coming from, again, because the purchase journey was so complex, right? It wasn't a problem that we could solve by just putting an attribution layer in somewhere. We had to really hyper focus on one or two things and do them really, really well.Alex:The concept of growth in the past has generally been focused on the top line. And what that means, often, for a lot of companies, is to just go into as many different channels and try to tap into as many different demographics as you possibly can and then find out what's working and what's not working. I think the issue is that the broader investment community has wisened up to that, right, and they're holding us more accountable on a unit economics and customer economics level, versus just month over month top line growth, which in reality, it's just a vanity metric, right?Alex:So, it is more favorable to take a more disciplined approach, albeit potentially slower top line growth, to really uncover those median sites that you can actually build a solid foundation on and grow a real, scalable, profitable company on versus just something that's just, scaling wildly at the top one but in reality it's just lighting money on fire.Stephanie:So, for a higher priced product like Burrow and a longer buying cycle, what platforms would you advise other brands to look at and optimize for and which ones would you pull back from?Alex:Yeah. So, I think if you acknowledge that it is, there are a lot of things that people have to learn about the product, a lot of things that people have to get comfortable with and confident in the purchase. You think that a lot of these shorter form mediums, like paid social, paid search, right? It's just a quick second and a half interaction with an ad, they're not going to be as effective for a product like ours, and that's true. What we have indexed up on are things that are more storytelling mediums. So, the earliest insight into this was we partnered with a small podcast in late 2017, and it's sort of one of those micro ones, it's not on a network, and just talks about fantasy football. And we just got introduced to the gentleman that runs it, and did a small test, and the results were incredible.Alex:Part of what we've learned over time from that point, rapidly scaled the podcast program for us is that it's highly dependent on the host, and the reason that it's highly dependent on a host is because the efficacy of that channel comes from the quality of the storytelling. And that is really what benefits our brand, is that if we go and we send a podcast host a product and they have the same amazing experience that our customers have, they can talk about it in a much more authentic way, but also, a much more individual way. We've actually matured to not providing very detailed scripts to a lot of our podcasts hosts and just telling them to talk about what has been most exciting for you, and that really brings out the energy in the advocacy for the brand from the host. So, I'd say it's really about focusing on storytelling mediums. So, I lumped other video, long form video into that as well. A little bit less of authenticity, but also helps communicate a lot of these little value props that add up to the major value proposition.Stephanie:So, the other thing that comes to mind is branded content. I mean, I'm thinking about something like Formula One where now the results are out, everyone knows it worked really well for them. It was very, I would think, pretty organic, didn't feel like it was just a brand push. How are you guys thinking about other kinds of content like this?Alex:I don't know if we're at the stage yet where we can start thinking about that sort of thing. I think that Formula One is a great example of taking two powerhouses and linking them together where the sum is greater than or the whole is greater than the some of the parts. So, we're thinking a little bit less about something like that and creating more on a micro scale, I would say, brand and content.Alex:So, when you talk about something like the influencer arena, I am probably the biggest advocate against using influencers in the context that they are used today. And first of all, just to clarify, a true influencer is not somebody that says, "I'm an influencer" on their Instagram profile description, right? A true influencer is somebody that can speak to a community and elicit a response, and often, within a specific category, right? So, I'm not going to give a beauty "influencer" a furniture product and expect him or her to have an outsized impact on the sales.Stephanie:Stephanie:So, you'd focus on the niche influencer who might only have 1,500 followers or something, which is something I think I talked about early on this show, of going through the comments of Instagrammers and seeing, are the people in there asking, "Where can I buy that? Where did you get that from?" Or are they just like, "That's great. Cool. I love that." What kind of engagement are you getting will show if that person has influential power over their community or not.Alex:Totally, totally. And obviously, it's going to vary by a vertical too. This is sort of an extreme example, right? Again, going back to the very considered purchase, even our ability to measure the impact of that is going to be super limited. So, we've actually leaned into the influencer community for, more so is, partnering with actually photography influencers. One of the bottlenecks and problems with our vertical is that our products are very large and our photo shoots and video shoots require massive studios and massive crews that are very, very expensive. Meanwhile, all of these people out there that can already take great pictures and already have really interesting homes need furniture. And so, we can often partner with them in a much more economically scalable way to get a huge diversity and huge volume of content created that can showcase different styles, different aesthetics, different home types, and different personalities, and just build this library of content instead of having to book homes ourselves and go through the whole production process.Alex:So, we've actually been doing that for a while just purely based on economic reasons. But it's interesting to see that now, I think there's going to be a massive shift towards organic for a number of other reasons. When you talk about a lot of the privacy regulations that are going on right now, over the last 10 years, the control of the voice or the conversation has shifted towards the consumer and towards the user. You see like case examples of this with like GameStop, for example. The retail investor just had a massive impact on the market from such a small player, right? Because the control of the conversation momentum is shifting away from the brands that have the big budgets and towards the customers that have the voice, the authentic following.Stephanie:That's the influencer of the year right there.Alex:Yeah, totally.Stephanie:And Reddit. And that's probably where all the other influencers are, an area that I haven't even thought to go, but we've had guests come on previously where Reddit is how they figured out how to build their business, which I haven't even thought to go there. Alex:Totally, totally. I mean, it makes total sense, right? It's experts that are talking because they're passionate about what they're talking about, right, not because they have a vested interest or they are trying to make money off of it, then that's where you get that authentic content from and the actual truth.Stephanie:So, how do you go about incentivizing that or structuring it so it can come in? Because I'm sure a lot of brands are like, "I want my customers to talk about me and take pictures and do all the things," and then they just sit there and nothing comes in. So, what are you doing behind the scenes to make that happen?Alex:So, it's less about focusing so much effort on trying to elicit that response just by trying to elicit it and more about really focusing on that product innovation and that experience that will naturally have that effect on people, right? You don't want somebody to talk about your product in a positive way because you're paying them to talk about it in a positive way, you want them to really advocate, because that means that not only are they talking on the channel that you want them to talk about it, they're also having side conversations. And when people come over to their homes and they're asking, "Wow, where did you get that beautiful sofa from?" They are talking not just about, "Oh, I got it from Burrow," they're also saying like, "And it happens to have these stain resistant fabrics, and it has all of these great other materials, and it was modular, and it was super easy to get it delivered and get it set up." And that's what you really want to go off of.Alex:So, I would say the biggest focus should be on nailing that product innovation and nailing that customer experience, and that's how you can count on that customer conversation to be generated rather than trying to chase down your customers and get them to talk about it in a less authentic way.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. I think that the days when people on Amazon are like, "I got paid for this review," or something, those will be gone very soon, because I don't know about you, but every time I go through a threat and I see that, I'm like, "Don't trust you, don't trust you." I just want to see the normal person who's reviewing it at their own goodwill, or not, maybe they're mad, but I want that. I don't want someone saying, "I got a free product for this review." That just seems like those days are gone.Alex:Yeah, totally, totally.Stephanie:So, the other thing I want to talk about is product development. I saw that your co-founder and CEO said, "Every single product we've ever launched has exceeded expectations and projections, and that's a testament to our customer-centric research-driven design process," which I want to dive into that and hear. I'm sure many brands are like, "I want every single product of mine to be a success, and I want to expand my skews." So, how do you guys go about designing and crafting new products?Alex:Well, I think one thing that we should clear up is the concept of customer centricity is used so broadly and inauthentically, I think. A lot of brands will claim customer centricity and they'll think that they're being customer centric because that's who their customer is and they just need to make money off of them, and so they'll say that they're thinking about all their needs. The problem is they're not actually talking to the customers, they're assuming on behalf of the customers that they know what that customer needs. Or they're just testing messaging, which is fine. That's been the traditional approach of, "Okay, if I play up this feature or this benefit versus this feature or this benefit, and this one does better, that's what the customer must want," right? But it almost becomes a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.Alex:We take it to a much deeper level, not just with our customer community but also our lead community, all of our email subscribers that have yet to join and make an actual purchase with us, and actually going to them and asking them very specific and lengthy questions. I remember the first time we sent out a customer survey about one of the next products that we were going to launch and just wanted to get their input on like, "Is this the right product?" Number one, and B, "What are those little things that really bother you about this product?" And did a ton of just open ended response analysis based on that.Alex:The biggest surprise for me from that was the response rate. For a quiz or rather survey that took probably a solid 10 to 15 minutes of someone's time to go through and really complete in depth, which they did, the response rate was astounding. And that opened our eyes to, "Wow, this needs to become a regular occurrence within our work stream."Stephanie:How quickly were you sending this to them? Was it a week after they got their product and are trying to set it up, or what did that look like?Alex:Well, there's a couple different ones. So, what we have is a couple different touch points that are automated or triggered based on somebody actually making their first purchase with us. So, we had, obviously, a post purchase survey right away, which I think is one of the most underappreciated and can be most impactful survey points that people do, or brands do, rather. We also have an NPS survey, which going back to how do you elicit a response from customers and activate customers, NPS is going to be your biggest indicator of how much of that is happening in the background. And that is actually backed up by an element on the post purchase survey where we ask, "Were you were referred by a friend? Does that friend own Burrow furniture, or do they not, or do not know?" And that can also give us a really solid indication of the impact.Alex:So, beyond the triggered survey points, we also do intermittent studies, and it's almost on a monthly cadence now, of either focuses on new categories in general, or we've already identified the category, we've already identified the specific product and we're trying to nail down colors, color combinations, finishes, specific features, doing conjoint analyses on like, what is most important to this set of consumer? I mean, we've really taken it to a super, super deep level.Stephanie:Have there been any products that you launch based off consumer feedback or maybe early launches where it's like, "Oh, they led us astray with that one"? Because I'd be like, "I want a fluorescent pink couch." And then I'd be like, "Oh, I had a little too much wine that night. Sorry about that."Alex:Yeah. Fortunately, we're pretty good at statistics and we can identify outliers and not get swayed by them too much. There actually have not been. And I think it speaks volumes for this concept of authentic customer centricity where... and you can also cross-compare between the customer set and the subscriber set, right? The subscribers are a great audience because they have not purchased anything from you, or at least the subscribers that are not customers, and there's a reason why, right? Versus the customers, they did find something that you offered already and they've already bought into the brand, and they're responding to you because they're still engaged. And so, that's one set of needs that you need to fulfill.Alex:And then there's the other set of needs, and oftentimes, there's a good amount of overlap, which is great for us, and oftentimes, there's not, and that's when we need to make choices around what does that offering look like and who are we really chasing with that?Stephanie:Yep. The other thing I think you mentioned in the past was around how you start thinking about zoning and mapping out what else a person needs in their room, which means like, "Oh, brilliant, okay, if someone got a couch, a little swivel chair, and obviously, they need pillows." And I want to hear, did that method work, and how have you expanded that since you first started trying it I think maybe a year and a half ago or so?Alex:It did, totally. I mean, you take one concrete example of this is with the advent of coffee tables for us. We first launched the sofa and then we launched our first line of coffee tables, and those were specifically designed dimensionally to work best with the sofa styles that were selling the most volumetrically. So, we knew that there was a high rate of match, right, between them. It wasn't like we were designing for something that we were only selling like 5% of our assortment or something like that.Alex:Where that took another level is in 2019, we launched the corner sectional, and then arrangements and configurations started getting a lot more varied and a lot more... opened up actually, additional demographics as well, with more suburban, satellite city homes with larger room spans. And that opened up a new category, and so what we had to do is to figure out, "Okay, well, if you have a five-seat corner sectional, none of our coffee tables really make sense for that. And so, how do we create a coffee table that works perfectly in that configuration for that customer specifically?" So, that's when you saw in late 2020, we released our Kettle and Signal collections, which are more of a round geometry versus a rectangular geometry. And that happens to work really well with things like a Double Chaise Long King Sofa, where the chaise is wrapped nicely around the round coffee table, or the corner sectional, it creates a really nice conversation pit type feeling.Alex:So, it is very much about understanding how our pieces interact. And then the next level that is, what are the types of rooms that people are using it in? What are the actual dimensions of those rooms? And what logically, could somebody need the most, given that room design and size?Stephanie:It seems like a lot of brands are missing that right now, because oftentimes, I mean, whether it's furniture or a lot of other things, I'm like, "Where is that matching dresser set? Or where is the pillow that goes with that?" And it feels like having to go around and look in different places and trying to find it myself, I'm like, "Why am I doing the work? I just want a kit which is like, 'Here's all the five things that match together.'" But why is that so hard? I don't get why can't brands do that?Alex:I think one of the biggest examples of this is that company brand list that skyrocketed, but they were launching things in such unrelated categories that there was no bond between them. And companies nowadays need to think a lot more about lifetime value than they had to necessarily, in the past. Acquisition cost is growing, and they can no longer just rely on first purchase profitability in order to sustainably scale their business, and they need to think about building a relationship with the customer. And that often comes from creating relationship and being the default brand or site to go back to when they may have that next need and finding that perfect accompanying piece, right? Versus just like you buy cleaning detergent from the company, and you come back and, oh, they're offering soccer balls or something.Stephanie:Pillows.Alex:Yeah, it's like, "Okay, well, that doesn't make sense."Stephanie:Yeah. Which makes me think, I mean, it seems like the world is headed towards a more curated world right now. Maybe back in the day, I would go to a Wayfair or something like that and I'd be like, "Cool, I'm fine with scrolling, scrolling," five years later, still scrolling and looking for what I want. It doesn't seem like consumers want that anymore. So, how do you see the consumer journey and preference adjusting now where maybe a couple years ago, that would be totally fine?Alex:Yeah. I think it's almost a byproduct of the ease of standing up a company nowadays. It is exponentially easier to start a company, a direct to consumer company than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. So, because of that, the market has just blown up in terms of the number of companies. And so, the paralysis of choice has shifted from like going to an old school Sears or Macy's and just having like a million different options, or as you put it, like a Wayfair, and just tens of millions of options, to now having to build a relationship with a brand and trust that that brand is making the right decisions. And so, that's why we offer a very select assortment of fabric colors, leg finishes, arm styles. In reality, we can house tens of component skews and offer tens of thousands of combinations to the customer, but what's ultimately the most important thing is that we do it in a way that is still a very simple and clean experience for the customer so that they get that sense of they're creating their own product, but not to the extent of being overwhelmed.Alex:I think of myself on old school furniture sites and staring at the screen from two inches away trying to figure out the difference between this gray and that gray, and I'm like... and then you request swatches from them and they come 10 weeks later.Stephanie:Yeah. I've recently been through that experience. It's not great.Alex:Yeah. No, it's not fun.Stephanie:They arrived and I'm like, "What was I trying to buy, again?" [crosstalk]. I mean, it seems like you guys could also have a very localized approach where, like you mentioned earlier, if someone is looking from a very suburban area, like my hometown in Maryland, where my expectations there would have probably been to have a huge wraparound couch, I've got this big living room, versus being in San Francisco or Austin, where now it's like a little bit more limited space, and what can I fit in these small areas? [crosstalk] think about that?Alex:I mean, the first step there that we're taking, it's more from a content driven approach. So, that goes back or loops back to the way that we're treating influencers and leaning into the photography community and the different styles and aesthetics that they have. Because what we are creating are based products. They are beautiful but they don't belong in an architectural [inaudible] editor's home, right? They're not the one-off piece that you design and custom build for 15 grand or something.Alex:And what's beautiful about that is that they stand up to any environment that you're putting them in, whether it's a very eclectic like Austin ranch style home, or the fourth floor walk up apartment in New York, or a more sprawling home in Houston or another geography like that. And leaning in with more of that stylistic approach than necessarily sub-segmenting, "Oh, we're only going to show love seats to this geography, or we're only going to show these massive sprawling corner sectionals to this other geography," because people still have varying needs, a lot of people have multiple rooms. So, we don't want to limit, necessarily, the assortment, but we are trying to diversify constantly the styles and aesthetics that our products are showcased in.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. So, for the last big point, I wanted to talk about the industry as a whole, like the D2C industry, commerce, what kind of things are you seeing or preparing for behind the scenes for what's to come?Alex:I mean, we could talk about the elephant in the room, which is-Stephanie:Let's talk about it. Yeah, let's do it. I haven't really talked too much about that, because it's been so up in the air, and when's it going to go through? It's more official now, so let's do it.Alex:Oh, yeah, it's official. This is a tough thing, and I think it's a reckoning for a lot of these companies, again, where it's been so easy to start a company and just go on Facebook, and you'll generate some sales, and go to a VC and you'll show 100% month over month growth, and they'll throw a bunch of cash at you. That's changing, and I'm thankful for it as much as I curse the fact that we don't have this GPS anymore, I'm very thankful that we don't, because it's forcing us to mature as marketers. And we're fortunate also that we've had to embrace this appreciation for marketing 101 and really lean into principles and not just trust what the ad platform are telling us, because it's a whole shopping journey.Alex:So, we've built a very healthy, full funnel approach proactively, even without any of this talk about these privacy regulations. That has helped us create something that can stand up in the face of this. There are a lot of companies that have not done that, they've not invested in really understanding marketing 101 and how to build a healthy full funnel without having that very granular level of insight or having automatic triggers in their campaigns and stuff. So, I think that is the most important thing, is like there is a day of reckoning for marketers everywhere in the D2C space to take a step back and really appreciate the principles of marketing and evaluate your program architecture overall and make sure that it's in a healthy state, and not just because your add to cart rates or your conversion rates are really high from this one campaign in this one ad unit, but really, overall, how is your program operating? Where are the weak points and how can you supplement those?Stephanie:Yeah. So, if you were starting over day one today, what kind of things would you look at? What metrics would you look at? What kind of things would you put in place to start building up that healthy funnel?Alex:Yeah. I think we would look at... I'm trying to think if I didn't have all the information that I have today, but I think what you would look at is the abandonment rate through the funnel, right? Of the people who click through to your site, how many of them end up viewing a product? Of those people, how many of them end up adding it? Of those people, how many of them end up actually proceeding to step one of checkout, step two, step three, step four? And find out what that makeup looks like.Alex:And obviously, you're going to spend a lot of time on conversion rate optimization and trying to improve the outputs of each step of that funnel. But that paints a picture of, okay, how broad do you have to invest at the top of that funnel if your ultimate target at the bottom of the funnel is X? And what does that reach look like? And what are the best mediums to do that to actually elicit a response and get people onto your site or into your store or signing up for whatever service you provide? So, that, I think, is what I would take as step one.Alex:The other one is, I would just consider, for the vertical that you're in and the product that you're trying to sell, how much of a story do you need to tell? And that will help inform how much you will need to invest in more storytelling mediums than more immediate click to buy type mediums. Also, how visual is your product? That will tell you how much you have to be content driven versus leaning into things like search or audio formats or anything like that. And that can really help govern your channel choices.Alex:And then the last thing is just, don't fall into the trap of doing too many things at once. There's always something to be said to acknowledging the resources that you have and trying to build a architecture that is best for that set of resources, not just the one that happens to be doing really well for the other portfolio company that your VC backer is constantly in your ear about, you have to focus on what is going to work for your company, your vertical, your customers specifically.Stephanie:Yep, yeah, I love all that. Is there or are there any tools right now that you're very excited about that are either new or just time tested, you're like, "We're going to keep using these forever because they do wonders for our marketing efforts"?Alex:I think a lot of it is less about tools and more about information sources. So, we've partnered with a number of different companies over time to do things like customer enrichment and really understand our customers to a deeper level, again, going back to that concept of customer centricity, not just talking to them directly, but also learning much, much more about them. And I think one of the biggest traps that a lot of companies fall into is they think of their customer as an average customer, and the problem is they're failing to acknowledge that customers are not one monotonous group, they are a system of clusters and cohorts. And what you really have to do is understand what is unique and important about each of these clusters and then create a messaging architecture, channel architecture, product offering that really speaks to each of those clusters individually.Alex:So, from a tools perspective, it's more about these data enrichment, customer data enrichment type platforms, and then using those to create these clusters and cohorts and really understand those customers. Again, for us, an attribution platform, not super helpful because of the complexity and both mix of offline and online activity that it takes to get to the purchase point. Much more about really understanding the customer and then applying a marketing 101 approach to it.Stephanie:Cool. Yeah, that's great. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer.Alex:Oh, boy.Stephanie:Ready, Alex?Alex:Sure.Stephanie:Oh, boy. What's one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Alex:Shoot. Where do I start? I think I would like to understand more about the global supply chain. I think over the last six months to a year maybe, we've seen, very intimately, the impacts of a broken or strained supply chain, and I think that there's a huge opportunity for D2C companies to innovate on the supply chain side. We focus so much on how do we innovate on the customer side that we focus so much less on the supply side of the business. So, I think that is where... and it will become increasingly important for marketers and supply ops to be speaking and working very much hand in hand to grow a company together. So, I do wish I had more of that background.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. And you guys just raised around, and I think that money, a part of it, was to focus on international supply chain effort, right? Figuring that out better.Alex:Yes, totally.Stephanie:So, you're already right in the right spot, the right time. You'll have to let everyone else know the insight. You have to come back and tell us what you learn next year.Alex:Yes, definitely.Stephanie:What's up next on your reading list or podcast list?Alex:There's actually a couple books I think that I want to reread. I'm one of those weird people that really likes to read technical books, and so there's a couple of conversations we're having right now about pricing in this book called Power Pricing that I love to read. There's also one by a gentleman named Douglas Holt called Cultural Strategy that I think is one of the most foundational and important books, especially for the world today. And again, how the customer controls the conversation, and understanding how to position your company and your messaging around cultural movements and ride momentum versus trying to create that momentum yourself as you have in the past. The last one is Shoe Dog, actually.Stephanie:Yes, such a good book.Alex:Amazing book. This would now be, I think, my third time reading it, but it is a way to, I think... A lot of people have been talking about languishing right now and the fact that we've been in this environment for so long and we're yearning for that personal interaction, and so tired of being in the sedentary and fixed on a digital screen environment. And I think Shoe Dog can help reignite a lot of that passion, right? Because it's like, "Wow, this multi-billion dollar company started at such a microscopic level." And it really helps you understand the power and the capability you have as an individual to create something like that and can help really reignite that passion.Stephanie:Yeah, that's one of my favorite books. Actually, we have a podcast called The Story that tells the unknown backstory of people who change the world, and we highlighted him in one of the episodes because we were like, "The story is too good not to tell, and tell, and tell until everyone hears it, and gets motivated and starts their thing today."Alex:Yeah, totally.Stephanie:That's awesome. I feel like they need a movie out or something. Do they have one?Alex:I'm sure there will be. I'm sure there will be.Stephanie:There has to be one. Too good of a story not to. What's one thing you're secretly curious about? [crosstalk].Alex:TikTok, I think.Stephanie:Are you all on there?Alex:We are not. From a demographic perspective, in the past, I would say a year and a half, it hasn't made sense. The program is continuing to grow, the demographic adoption is continuing to expand, and so I am interested in what it looks like going forward. I think it is also a challenging medium for a lot of brands that are really attached to high production quality content, because what scales the best on that platform is very lo-fi content, very organic and authentic content. And it creates this shift for a lot of companies in the way that they think about creative. So, I'm curious in that we are actively learning about our potential approach to that channel, but also curious about how does that platform and program evolve over time. I've not heard great things about the ad platform that they've built so far, which is partially why we've been hesitant to really go after the channel, but that will evolve. They will crack that code. And what that looks like, I don't know, but I'm certainly curious.Stephanie:Yeah. We've definitely heard 50-50 on TikTok, some brands saying it works wonders, but they're the ones creating their own content, maybe not an ad partner programs. I also think from a consumer standpoint, how it's going to evolve, because at least me personally, I think I got signed out and I couldn't remember my password-Alex:Oh, no.Stephanie:... and I just never signed back in. I'm like, "I'm not sure I really like it then, or maybe I know that just scrolling is not good for me."Alex:Yeah. That was me with Clubhouse, actually.Stephanie:Oh, same.Alex:I loved Clubhouse for the first seven days and was on it constantly and I have not been back on it for [crosstalk].Stephanie:Yeah. I think it got crowded. I mean, now it's just so busy, so many people talking about so many things, it didn't feel curated. I started feeling like that to me too where it was 50-50 of like, "I like these videos, and next nine, I don't like." I think there has to be curation to keep at least us involved, it sounds like.Alex:Yeah, totally. I mean, honestly, that's what happened with the podcast world too, right? It became everybody launched their own podcast, and then there's so much content. The biggest problem with podcasts now is discovery. The only way you learn about what to listen to is through your friends.Stephanie:Yeah.Alex:And so, that concept of discovery is such a challenge for podcasts right now, and I think that's what Clubhouse is going through at 1,000 times faster through the learning cycle.Stephanie:Yeah. I think the next couple of years will be interesting, because I mean, they've been talking about discovery issues back to even when I worked at Google, figuring out Google podcasts, and that was an issue back in 2017. So, why hasn't this been solved yet? It should be so much easier.Alex:Yeah.Stephanie:All right. Well, Alex, it's been awesome having you on the show, such a fun conversation. Where can people find out more about you and Burrow?Alex:Burrow.com would be the easiest place.Stephanie:What about you? Are you on LinkedIn? What if people want to talk to you?Alex:I am. LinkedIn. Alex Kubo. I'm not sure if you can actually search me and find me, but I'm sure you could.Stephanie:I'll find you. Don't worry. All right. Thanks so much, Alex.Alex:Thank you so much, Stephanie.

It seems like selling a product that is designed to make you feel good should be a cake walk. But as we all know, business is never easy, especially when you’re breaking into the supplement and nutritional bar space, which is overcrowded with industry giants such as Clif bars and KIND. So what’s an upstart company with a solid product and good intentions to do?On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we found out when we talked to Chris Bernard, the co-founder, CEO and Chief Mood Officer for Mindright, the good mood superfood. As it turns out, there are a few ways that a small new company can make a splash, especially in the digital space. Chris explains how organic reach outs and authentic connections formed through his partnership with Rob Dyrdek has helped Mindright create an influencer and ambassador community that wins against influencer fatigue. Plus Chris, he digs into why a content strategy that blends humor and education is what gets the attention of the digital audience. Enjoy this episode.Main Takeaways:Be Serious… But Have A Laugh: Fun and funny content is a great way to build a relationship with consumers and to sell the lifestyle that you want your brand to be about. But you also have to balance real education and sales tactics into your content along with the comedic elements so that customers can get the full picture of what a brand is, why they should buy it, and to convince them to complete the purchase.Can I Get A Sample?: Free samples used to be a staple at grocery stores and markets everywhere, and those samples were a key way that new companies created buy-in with potential customers. Now that the industry has shifted away from that model, finding a new way to hyper-target customers with influencers, deals, and content is the best way to bring customers into the fold.Influencer Fatigue: Consumers are wise to the influencer strategy these days, and their fatigue is real when it comes to consuming influencer content. In order for brands to fight that fatigue and win engagement, building buzz around future products rather than current offerings is one of the best ways to do it.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone and welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today on the show we have Chris Bernard, the co-founder and CEO and Chief Mood Officer at Mindright. Chris, welcome to the show.Chris:Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.Stephanie:It's good to have you. Would you rather have me call you Bernie? Which one do you want?Chris:My friends and my coworkers call me Bernie, but whatever you're comfortable with.Stephanie:I'm your friend.Chris:Okay, call me Bernie.Stephanie:All right. I like it. So in the beginning, I like to always hear about your background, your journey and how you got to Mindright. So maybe if we could start there. What did you do before Mindright, we'd like to hear.Chris:What I did before Mindright was I was in action sports for a little over 15 years. I represented brands like Burton Snowboards in their sales and marketing channels as an independent contractor. I left that business in 2015 and I invested in a company called, Buff Bake which was protein snacks and protein cookies, nut butters and I came on board with them as part of that investment as the CEO and I helped them run that company for a few years until I was ready to try something new and had an idea and ended up launching this Mindright.Stephanie:So did you have the idea for Mindright right after Buff Bake or was there something in between there?Chris:It was something in between and it just evolved very quickly into what it is today.Stephanie:Okay. What was your original idea? And then what is it today?Chris:Vegan cookie dough.Stephanie:Well that sounds good. I dig that.Chris:It was okay. It wasn't great and that's why I kept it out of the vine and I think we'll probably get into it. But one of the things that dismissed the idea was it really for me, I was looking for something condition specific. Functional foods are really driving the category right now and it's all about condition specific. Foods that drive beauty from within, through collagen, immune support, sleep support.Chris:It's really how we came to Mindright. We started to see this trend in supplements and when you're looking for trends that are going to be shifting to food and beverage, you always start with supplements and you see this rise of adaptogens and nootropics and brain supplements and anti-aging and it's just skyrocketing growth in supplements. It was this idea of how do we support our lifestyle through our mindset, our long hours, our drive, our energy levels through ingredients that support cognitive function. And that's where we started was this idea of cognitive food support and I came to my partner with this idea, he absolutely loved it. At the time the working name was Feed Your Brain.Stephanie:Cool. I like that name.Chris:And it was just really focused on brain health.Stephanie:Do you have a background in this world? How would you even know? When I'm thinking about brain health, I'm like, "Feels like there's so many things. I should be doing facial or I should be doing this. I should be doing so many things." Did you have a background in this where you already knew this makes me feel good? Or did you have to learn all about it?Chris:No, I just knew I wasn't feeling good. I always feel this brain fog and slow and besides this fact that you just hit 40, things start to slow down a little bit and you're looking for ways to support your lifestyle and just keep your edge and just keep moving forward and you start researching and there's a lot of great information around brain health, mental wellbeing, nutrition and other things that support those functions.Stephanie:Okay. And so what were some of the ingredients that you started finding that you're like, "We need to have this in some kind of bar."Chris:It was like lion's mane, Gingko biloba, both of which didn't make the cut at the end.Stephanie:Oh, how come?Chris:Well this is where I was going was, as we started with Brain Health, my partner who is a very big advocate of testing and research pushed to really go out and survey a group around 350 people. And while cognitive function was important to them, what indexed the highest was, "Do you have foods and ingredients that help me feel good? Happy, good mood. I want to be focused and feeling good." And this theme of feel good, just kept popping up and popping up and we took a step back and it was indexed so high. Like, "Why don't we just lean into good mood?" We've got a set of ingredients. We've got some data behind some of the ingredients we're using to really support enhancing your mood, decreasing your stress and giving you energy. All the things you need to feel good. So we need to do it. And that's how Good Mood Superfood was born.Stephanie:Cool. And did you always know that it would turn into a bar or did you have other thoughts early on?Chris:We had many thoughts and we still have many thoughts. This was our way of really standing up the brand, getting a feel for our branding, our message, bars is just the starting point. We have a really dynamic innovation pipeline of other snacks, drink blends, hydration drink. Things that will help support other areas of brain health.Stephanie:Very cool. So let's talk a bit about your partner and how that working relationship is and how you even landed him as your partner.Chris:So I was introduced to Rob Dyrdek, legendary TV personality, former skateboard, a professional athlete. Rob has a show on MTV right now called Ridiculousness. I grew up watching his other shows, Rob & Big and Fantasy Factory, as many of us did.Stephanie:Rob & Big, that's a good show.Chris:It was amazing. So then we just look forward to every week watching. He's just such a character and dynamic human being. But what people don't know is he runs a really diverse, exciting venture creation studio. He refers to himself and the people around him as do or diers, people that are interested in investing in themselves, growing businesses from the idea stage to the exit. And he's invested in several brands, primarily at the startup stage. And when I came to him, I was in the transition period in my life. I didn't know why I was meeting him.Chris:I was going to go in and just introduce myself. And I brought Buff Bake with me just in case he was interested in investing because always looking for investors and he made me tell him my life story from the day I was born until the day I ended up sitting in the chair in front of him.Stephanie:Wow. I should have done that.Chris:It's not that interesting. But he really liked it. And I spent 55 of my 60 minutes talking about myself and then he's like, "Okay. So what's up with these cookies? What's up with this Buff Bake? He's like, "Okay. Those are really good. I like them but I really like you. If you have some ideas or you want to do something, come back and let's talk about it."Chris:I left and I got a call two weeks later from him, wanted me to come back again. Again, didn't really know why I was going there. He wanted to pitch me on some ideas. And it just flew over my head. I went home, I called his COO and I was like, "What's he looking for?" He wanted an idea from me. He wanted to work on something. So I had been in the background working on these cognitive ingredients, paired with superfoods and brought it back to him as a whole package. I came in with fully developed samples around bars and coffee creamers and bites to really articulate what this could look like. And he was so excited about the presentation. He just sealed the deal with me on the spot and we were off to the races.Stephanie:That's amazing. What does the partnership look like with him? How's he involved?Chris:He is very, very involved. He wants to be very involved in the creative process, but also through all the funding, the financial rounds, building the infrastructure of the company. He has built a really strong team around him. Managing the finance arm, managing the marketing project teams. So it's an extension of my team. We are true co-founders, he's very, very involved in the business and he and I are either working together on the daily basis or he and his team are fully integrated in.Stephanie:That's really cool. And it seems like once you get access to him and then you had his network, it brings in other investors as well.Chris:Yeah. So that's the next thing that happened. So we stand this thing up and we start to go out to bring in some strategic capital to help push things along. We started with some traditional resources and private equity and some strategics within the space. And then we started talking to his network a little bit and all of a sudden we saw how excited they were and one conversation led to the next, led to the next, the next thing you know it's Marcus Lemonus from the profits. Jonas was extremely excited about the project. He now sits on the board with myself and Rob. Joe brought his brothers on as well. Jordan McGraw, Travis Barker, Ken Roxanne. It's just this star-studded list of really great mindset celebrities and athletes. Very, very exciting.Stephanie:It seems like you have your own portfolio of influencers. You can get the word out there. While most people you're trying to even think about, "How do I even tap into one of those?" You've got this whole little Rolodex just working for you.Chris:Right. So it's exciting. I think that being able to have that leverage and that advantage really puts us in a unique position to tell the story.Stephanie:Awesome. So tell me a bit about, you said that you were getting samples when you were going to go and show him what you could do. What did that process look like? Because to me thinking about even making any kind of food and then getting the packaging and then getting ingredients that maybe some people aren't the most comfortable with. If you hear some of the words you'd be like, "Well, what is that like? Is that even safe?" Tell me what that process looked like to even find someone who could make the bar that you wanted to taste good and have all that ready for the sample day.Chris:It's funny. You start with the manufacturers. Every manufacturer has a food scientist, R&D, most of them do. Food scientists and R&D department. And most of the time, if they're excited about your project, they will help your R&D. It comes with strings attached and not always do you end up owning your IP, which is important if you're interested in exiting your company at some point, but you learn the process of what goes into R&D products.Chris:And I came in, you come in with a brief and your core tenants for, "These are the ingredients that I would like to use as superfoods. These are the outputs that we'd like to achieve, enhance mood, stress, energy. These are the functional ingredients we're thinking about." And then you work with the ingredient suppliers to understand efficacy and transparency around their ingredients. And you let these guys do their job and you like what you like and you don't when you don't. And I think we did about 13 rounds of this bar until we landed in a place that we felt really good about.Stephanie:That wasn't just you testing it or were there other people trying it?Chris:It was Rob and the entire team. His close team is a team of five.Stephanie:That is awesome. What kind of lessons did you learn when going through that process? Anything that you would maybe do different?Chris:Well, I'll tell you one thing. We tried to be everything but the kitchen sink. We wanted to be keto, we wanted to be paleo, we wanted to be zero sugar. We wanted to be everything. Vegan, dairy-free, gluten-free and have functional ingredients that support incredible, feel, good vibes and decrease your stress. And we were realistic that not all of that was going to work and our guiding light really became taste. If it doesn't taste good, I don't care if it has all those things, it's just not going to work for us. So we planted a flag and it was about taste. And we want this thing that tastes good. And if it has five or six or seven grams of sugar, we use a coconut Palm sugar, which we felt really good about. It was therapeutic. It was like, "Okay, great. We don't have to use sugar, alcohol, or stevia or erythritol or anything. We're going to use coconut Palm sugar. It's a low-glycemic sugar. It tastes great. The bar still has 50% less sugar than an RXBAR or competitor. And we felt really great about that.Stephanie:That's awesome. How do you view the landscape right now? Because I know when I go into certain grocery stores, I'm like, "Wow, there's so many bars." There's the original type RXBARS but now it feels like there's so many offshoots. Everyone's trying to do lower sugar. Maybe not what you're doing, but how do you make sure that you're staying ahead of them and also differentiating yourself where people are like, "Oh, obviously we can see why they're different than all these other bars."Chris:I think again, it came down to taste, great amount of protein, our base values of, it is plant-based vegan, it is dairy free, it is protein packed and low sugar were really important to us. But I think we'll continue to stand out with what our functional message around supporting mood through these super foods and ingredients. And we are just sticking with that.Stephanie:How do you get in front of new people though? I'm thinking about back in the day, samples where you're like, "Oh, I would never have thought to buy that, but now I can see it's healthy for me and good." How do you approach that now trying to get in front of new people and have them try it for the first time?Chris:It's difficult, especially through a global pandemic of people at home and not having opportunities sample in the markets or elsewhere. And for us, it's just leaning into our influencers, our investment community, paid ads, really important. Finding unique ways to drive trial, pinpointing and targeting specific communities. It'd be really great to be everything to everyone but if we could just focus on this core group that's committed to their mindset. They're coaches, they're hustlers, they're the boss, they're the mom and they're focused on what it takes for them to be successful every day. We call them the happy hustlers. That's where we're starting. Our initial reaction was the right one. They're really resonating with the product. They're speaking about the product for us organically. And we're just going to continue to focus on that community right now. And then it'll just hopefully grow from there.Stephanie:It also seems like you have a really good idea around your social presence and how you want to present yourself. It's like a fun whimsical looking, at least your Instagram feed and it's not overly product driven, but it's more selling the lifestyle behind it which I really liked.Chris:Exactly. That's exactly right. And that's what's resonated the most is people are realizing that Mindright is a lifestyle. It's not just about the products. We want to support you beyond that. And as you'll see over the next couple months, we're really going to lean into what it takes to have a better mood, to put the work into your mental wellbeing and really drive home this good mood movement. And being approachable and fun, makes it just easier to pay attention and watch and fun and funny is part of feeling good. And that's the message that we want out there.Stephanie:It sounds like your content strategy you're about to ramp up around those areas. How are you going to keep it balanced between educational, which I feel like a lot of people need education around the ingredients and why they're added and how they need to be mixed together and then the other side around even outside of the product. Like you said, just good mood and how to feel happy and mindfulness and it's like a whole different business over there. How are you thinking about balancing that and connecting with the right audience?Chris:It's just that. It's balancing, trying different things. It's balancing being funny with incorporating lifestyle and people enjoying the product. You're going to just start to see more direct response and testimonials. We are looking to partner with therapy based apps and other entities that help make mental health and wellness really accessible. We're going to have our investment team and our influencers talking about the work that it takes to get Mindright. It's not just, this bar is not going to solve your problems, it's not. But if you focus on your nutrition and you incorporate things like the importance of sleep and getting exercise and some type of a meditation routine, all of these things combined bring you to that next place.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. It's not just try one thing and all of a sudden everything will be solved, like many things and there's no magic potion.Chris:I think that that's where other companies that are trying, mood or all of these other cognitive functional ingredients, they could fall short because they're making it just about that. And I think that we'll go along for the ride and we'll be there to support our customers along the way.Stephanie:That's great. So you just mentioned influencers. I'm going to go and I want to hear how you view working with influencers because we've had quite a few brands on the show and they talked about it. Some people, amazing experiences if you find the right person who is all in, it's not just sharing a quick message of like, "Here's my teeth whitener and it works great for me go buy it." Versus maybe the ones that are really in they're even part the product development. How do you view a good working relationship with influencers? And more than one, since you have many that you have to balance.Chris:I think for us, it's about being authentic. If it's not something you enjoy and you truly believe in it comes through. You see it and you feel it. And I think having our influencers part of our ambassador program, which we're just at the early stages of building out, is a really important part around building the authenticity of their message. Our influencer program is very small right now, we're still identifying how they're speaking about the brand and what are the best ways to do that. But what we've gotten so far comes from a really organic place. We haven't paid for any influencers yet. All organic because people are enjoying the product and sharing the message with their community.Stephanie:Are you sending them free samples or is it more your investors giving it to their friends who are other influencers probably. And then it's organically happening through that way?Chris:A little bit of both. We identified people that live within our community that we would like to target and say, "Hey, we'd love your feedback. No expectations. You don't need to post. We just ask you tell us how you enjoyed the product. How'd you feel? What do you think about the packaging?" And then it just happens organically.Stephanie:How do you view the longterm strategy around influencers? Because sometimes it feels like they'll have this excitement and a big blip where their network sees it. And then there's maybe diminishing returns and people are either hit over the head with it too much. Or like, "I bought it. It's good." Or the person's not as excited anymore as they were maybe in month one. How do you keep them engaged or be like, "Okay. We're kind of good for now."Chris:We see that fatigue all the time. And I think for us, it's the excitement around what's coming. It's creating community around the lifestyle and the future launch of our new products. The bar is here today. It might not be here in three years from now. It's about continuing to evolve and supporting our needs today.Stephanie:Makes sense. So tell me a bit more about this ambassador program that you're building.Chris:We're at the early stages where we're leaning into this mindset community from happy hustlers. We have three investors on the team that live and breathe in that space. And that's Chris and Lori Harder, their lifestyle coaches and then Lewis Howes who also has a podcast, The School of Greatness. And just really leaning into what they do and how they do it and their communities coming to us and we're setting them up and they're incentivized by product. One of the angles that we're working on right now is charity. When they post, we will support a soon to be identified a mental health charity with an investment.Stephanie:When they're posting about the bar or the company, something like that, then it's like, "Okay, that's a point towards this charity or effect."Chris:Exactly. Those are the early stages. We're still in development. It's still being worked out. We're less than two months old in the market, so we're close.Stephanie:Are there other ambassador programs that you look at where you're maybe taking some key learnings from where you're like, "I know this one works well and I want to implement some of those strategies into Mindright as well."Chris:Yes. A lot of them are custom built though. There's a lot of really great app solutions that work really well and incentivize through product or discount or payment. We want to try to be more organic. I've seen some great custom ones that are gamified, that built community around this excitement around this app itself and the message. So work in progress.Stephanie:That'd be cool to circle back and hear what you ended up building and how it's working and the results. So tell me about your distribution strategy and where you're thinking about selling. Are you on Amazon? Is it just your website and how do you think about where you actually want your bars to be sold right now?Chris:It's everything digitally native. So we are alive on our website getmindright.com. We're on Amazon. We're looking at a various array of subscription box companies. But the really big one right now is all of the delivery convenience guys. So this new evolution of convenience, prime is not good enough. It can't be there the next day. It needs to be there in 20 minutes. So we're looking at partnerships with goPuff, FastAF, Dot. We're in the process of vetting those guys out right now and seeing which one makes the most sense. And I think that can meet format. It's just growing and exploding right now. Through COVID people were forced to adapt to Amazon and delivery service and it's here to stay. It's here to stay. Those conveniences will never change.Stephanie:Are you worried about maybe your brand and the story not being told correctly when you're starting to have many outlets for your products going out and you can't fully control the messaging or?Chris:Yeah. I think that's why picking the right partner for these delivery services is key because we want to make sure that we have the ability to tell a story, whether it's this big or in a banner. It's really partnering with the right team to help make that happen. And then we have a lot of work to do on our end. And I think that our community will help push people to these services. Amazon, getmindright, goPuff, that's where we go and they'll really rely on on that. It's challenging.Stephanie:Yeah, no. Especially when you have so many different people you're vetting right now and thinking about all of the control that you could be losing but also all the access that you're going to be gaining. It's tricky. Because this is a commerce show, I want to hear about your ecommerce strategy around what's working. What do you think that you're doing on your website that maybe is unique and others haven't tried out yet or that you're like, "This is a good tip that more people need to know about."Chris:I think it being less templated and more just an experience where it just feels fun. It makes you dive a little bit deeper to find out what's going on. What works for some people doesn't always work for others and I think this format is working well for us right now.Stephanie:Do you find yourself being able to look back at maybe your experiences at Burton and other places and pulling some lessons from there? Or is it such a different market that you're like, "That probably wouldn't work for this product."Chris:I think it's very similar. I think at the end of the day, you're selling an item that you're passionate and excited about and what is the best way to share that with your friends or your customers? It's very similar in that sense.Stephanie:Yeah. That's cool. So where do you guys want to be in one to three years? What are you hoping to achieve?Chris:We're looking to achieve this just amazing platform of good mood foods that span across really great retailers, Whole Foods, all the natural channels. It would be really great to see it everywhere obviously, but this really accessible approach to foods that help support your mood.Stephanie:Have you started talking to Whole Foods and other retailers like that?Chris:We've had some early conversations, but we really want to stay firm on this digitally native approach. I think that one thing that I'll add is testing is worth spending money on. Just test landing pages, AB testing, digital testing, customer testing. It has opened my eyes to this completely different world. And it is a true science. And when you understand that word that works, that picture that works, that landing page that just converted, it's a science. And then you can continue to really invest towards those things that are working because you know there's turn on that.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. What is a finding that maybe came out of some of those tests where you were like, "We would have never changed this, changed the product, change the website, but now that so many people are saying this, we're definitely moving forward with that.Chris:I would go back to the beginning where Rob and I, Mindright. There was two different names before Mindright. And now I look back, I'm like, "Neither of those would have worked. Mindright should have always been number one." We tested Mindright. Mindright worked really well but We wanted to brand the ingredients themselves. And we were like the unstoppable blend. We're unstoppable. This mentality of you cannot be stopped, masculine. And we were so sure of it and it failed miserably.Stephanie:They were like, "I don't like that."Chris:No, no. So now at the happy brain blend.Stephanie:That makes me feel happy. That's more on brand.Chris:Yeah. And then from that moment on we're like, "That's our guiding light." It makes me feel happy. Does it? Yes Or no. Okay. It's in.Stephanie:And how are you doing these tests? How are you going about trying to get this feedback? Are they surveys or what are you all doing behind the scenes?Chris:Yeah. Surveys. Right now, we've moved to more surveys. We're surveying around our current database of growing email subscriptions and then we're going to start doing some stuff through Instagram, social media. But the original testing went through a market research firm.Stephanie:All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Chris:No.Stephanie:Nope. Be right back. Need to go get some more tea. Get In the right mood here. All right. Well, we will move on anyways. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Chris:Oh my gosh. My podcast would be about thinking big. My whole life I never thought big. I thought pretty small and I put roadblocks up in front of myself and I think that now as I sit on a board with Rob Dyrdek and Joe Jonas, literally anything is possible and it would be about stories and ways to help open up your mind to anything is really possible. And I think as cheesy as that sounds, it really is. And I feel like here in my home with my kids and now that we're talking about getting Mindright and this positive growth mindset and to hear them talking about it, it's a real thing. I don't have a title yet. I'll let you name the podcast.Stephanie:There you go. I'll help you name it. Who would you bring on for your first guest?Chris:I bring in Rob. He is an amazing person to talk to about all of this stuff. His mindset is just next level with what he does to keep his energy and his success where it is. It's remarkable.Stephanie:Awesome. What does your mindfulness practice look like?Chris:I'm sorry.Stephanie:What does your mindfulness practice look like? How do you stay centered and balanced and not getting pulled everywhere when doing a startup?Chris:I think for me, I committed to getting up early every morning. I have to be up by 5:00,5:15 or else I can't do the things that I want to do for myself, which is exercise or just have a moment of meditation. Whether it's a minute or five minutes or 20 minutes. I try to do that every morning. I have four kids so life is really hard sometimes. Here they are.Stephanie:I feel that.Chris:So it's get up early, it's a few minutes of meditating and just understanding where I'm at and being really grateful for that. Exercise, 30 minutes. That is my non-negotiable. I have to get 30 minutes in, if I don't my day is just off and once in a blue moon we have a sauna that was gifted to us by-Stephanie:Wow.Chris:It was miracle. That's another podcast.Stephanie:Yeah. Okay. I want that friend. Gift me a sauna.Chris:It was some local guy just giving it away. He was moving.Stephanie:What area of California do you live in because I don't know about many local areas being like, "Here's a sauna. Do you want ice staff as well?"Chris:I'm on the hunt for one of those. So, if you know one. I started fasting, so I intermittent fast. I don't eat my first meal until 12:00 or 1:00. And I found it's really helped with inflammation and energy and I feel great. I also stop thinking through COVID I just-Stephanie:So impressive.Chris:30 days and then you felt great and 60 days, I'm like, "Wow, I feel awesome." And it just stuck.Stephanie:All right. Last question. Two more questions. What's one thing that you don't understand today that you wish you did?Chris:What don't I understand. I don't understand a lot of things let's be honest.Stephanie:Good answer. Just everything. Lots of things.Chris:No. I think for me, part of the reason why we're starting digitally native is almost a personal challenge to myself. I know retail really well, I know relationships, building brands, building distribution, working with brokers. I don't understand digital that well. And it can be frustrating at times because the learning curve is pretty steep and it's always changing every day because you're learning something new and I think digital marketing I don't know very well.Stephanie:Well, you'll be learning it with this company. So that's great.Chris:It'd be great to hire the right people to help you.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. 1,000% to that one. All right. And then the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Chris:I think it's these convenience delivery guys. I think they're going to change the game for a lot of people. FastAF is a really good example of what's happening with commerce outside of food and beverage, because they're delivering unique gifts. You need a gift and you're going to a party in an hour, they'll be there in 20 minutes with this beautiful candle or gift item which is just changing the way that we do everything.Stephanie:Yeah. Oh, I completely agree. All right. Well, this has been such a blast. I feel like my mind is really in the right place now after this interview. Where can people find out more about you and Mindright?Chris:Check us out at getmindright.com or on Amazon.Stephanie:All right. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.Chris:I really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Mini malls, shopping centers, and large department stores all still exist and remain popular despite their digital counterparts But online marketplaces are where more and more brands are gathering to not just sell goods, but to get a better 360 view of their customers, and gain access to sell products from other big name brands that fit their marketplace niche. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I explored that idea a bit more with Jason Wyatt, the Executive Chairman at Marketplacer, a business dedicated to creating marketplaces. We dove into the various ways that Jason has seen marketplaces evolve, especially in recent years. Plus, Jason talked about some of the incredible innovation that he’s seen take place  thanks to marketplaces — including the birth of Providoor, an Australian marketplace for restaurants that was built as a reaction to COVID-19 and reached a $100 million run rate within 12 weeks. We talked about how the marketplace connections made that possible, and also how the B2B landscape can be revolutionized thanks to marketplaces. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Getting The Bigger Picture: By creating a marketplace, businesses can get a much deeper picture into the attributes of their customers, while also gaining access to inventory and products to sell from big name brands. The key to success? Curation.We Have A Connection: One of the greatest advantages of a marketplace are the connections that can be formed within them. Especially from a B2B perspective, because for so long those buyers have been left out of the ecommerce equation. They desire the same level of connection and ease that those in B2C have come to expect though, and marketplaces have provided a way to create community and engagement that has made B2B selling and buying much easier.Long Live Loyalty: Big brands have long tapped into loyalty programs as a way to earn customer trust and keep them coming back. By expanding point systems to usage within a marketplace, brands are now becoming even more trustworthy and respected in the eyes of consumers, who can all of a sudden get more bang for their buck. Additionally, the rise of wide-ranging marketplace loyalty strategies will likely become a new way for retailers to attract customers to newer marketplaces.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, I'm Stephanie Postles CEO at mission.org and your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today on the show, we have Jason Wyatt, who currently serves as the executive chairman of Marketplacer. Jason, welcome.Jason:Hi Stephanie, thanks so much for having me on the show today.Stephanie:Thanks for hopping on at 7:00 am. I think you're one of the earliest guests I've talked to over in Australia, so I appreciate you coming on and joining me for a fun chat.Jason:No worries at all. It's just a pleasure to be on the show and talk to your community.Stephanie:I was hoping we could start back in your... way back in the early days when you were 13, because I saw a fun story about what you were doing back then and a little entrepreneurial spirit that was going on, and I was hoping you can kind of share what you're doing back then so people can get to know you a bit before we dive into Marketplacer. This is all around a loan that you got from your dad if you know what I'm talking about.Jason:Well, I might, I was actually... I was a mad sports fan, as the majority of Australians are in this country. And I was playing tennis at the time, if I'm on the right track with this story. And we used to play a lot and pretty competitive. But my brother was a lot better than me, but I used to sort of grab onto his heels, but we constantly used to break racket strings. And we didn't come from this massive affluent family. We come from a family of just, the harder you work, the luckier you get. But dad, what he did do is he loaned us the money to buy our own stringing racket. He just said, "If you keep breaking these strings, well you got to fix them yourself."Jason:My brother and I took advantage of that situation. We figured we had an unfair advantage versus the other tennis players within the group. And then what we actually did is we turned that into a little tennis racket stringing business. So at the age of sort of 13 or 14, we were making a hundred bucks a racket, stringing out sort of four rackets a night and we had a little good business going on. I suppose the entrepreneurial spirit sort of started at a very, very young age where we had a problem to solve and then we solved it for other people.Stephanie:I love that. It definitely rang close to home because I was out in my neighbor's yard, raking, weeding doing anything I could just to earn $5 here and there. And I love hearing about how other people had that itch early on too, and seeing what it turned into later on in life.Stephanie:I'd love to jump into Marketplacer a bit and hear what is it? When did you create it? And what are you guys up to today?Jason:Marketplacer is probably the most fascinating business that I've ever been associated with, because it enabled so much global connection and enables people and businesses all over the world to sell things they don't own and to really supercharge commerce. And the story started back when my co-founder and I, Sam Salter, we just had a simple idea 13 years ago to make it easier for people to buy and sell bicycles. And we created a business called BikeExchange. Think of cars.com for bikes. You're buying a new bike and you want to see everything in one single destination or you're selling your bike and you want to sell it to a community that's a trusted community, has a sense of belonging behind it. And we created BikeExchange. But in doing that we had some really, really big, tough entrepreneurial problems to solve.Jason:We had to come up with a sales and marketing plan. We had to come up with a customer success program, but most importantly, the technology never existed. So, we not only have to be great salespeople, not only a great customer focused, but we had to become technologists at the same time. And we just thought, in everything, in creating a business, in creating a marketplace on a global scale it's a problem that we could help other entrepreneurs or other businesses now actually start to use a platform to enable them to be able to create it. So the story was born out of solving our own problem, out of eating our own dog food in a technology term. But now we help people all over the world in 10 countries solve that marketplace journey, of really just making it easy to connect a customer and community to make it easier for them to sell things they don't own and to supercharge commerce. And I'm sure we're going to unpick what that means in a lot more depth over the next hour or so.Stephanie:That's awesome. What's wild to me is that building a marketplace is notoriously like the hardest thing you can do in commerce. Everyone struggles with supply side, demand side, how to build which one first, and you're not only doing it once. You're replicating it, using your software and doing it with multiple industries. How do you even go about approaching it, especially if it's a new marketplace?Stephanie:You had your bike one, I know earlier you were talking about meal delivery from restaurants, how do you even think about building a new marketplace and solving for both sides of the market?Jason:It's a really good question because we always identify what we consider to be an unfair advantage when we help our clients and customers really figure out whether it's a worthwhile strategic project for them. Because it's a strategic project to go through, that marketplace journey. And the unfair advantage has really been always anchored around two core elements. The first being an existing community or audience or customer base that you know they want to buy more things from you. Or you know you can connect them up in a single destination to improve that customer experience. And the second is more often not the ability to have an in-depth knowledge of the supply base, a connectivity into that supply base and product base. You can actually really exploit the now and explore the future around connecting those two sides of those marketplace journeys.Jason:The evolution and the story of a marketplace has really evolved over time too, from the humble beginnings of a BikeExchange when we first started. It's now in 10 countries, and now we're out around the world and listed on the Australian stock exchange in January of this year.Jason:Thank you, awesome team effort by the team. To really large retailers and brands and, and all types of traditional types of business saying, "Hey, I've actually got one or probably two of those unfair advantages and how can I make it easier for me to grow and drive growth within my existing customer base, without the limits of capital and without the limits of actually producing all of the products, but enhancing my customer experience along the way?"Stephanie:How do you figure out, I mean, how I'm envisioning is that you would probably have like a lead brand who's for the bike one or for the meal delivery one you'd have to have kind a lead person who's owning that marketplace and then they're onboarding other brands as well. And other customers, is that how I'm thinking about it? Because I can't imagine having 20 BikeExchanges where every bike company is, "Well, I want my own marketplace. And I want mine." It seems once you have one, it's probably good enough and you have to be a part of that one.Jason:It's a really, really good question.Jason:There's different types of marketplaces, but the evolution that is really happening at the moment is, take SurfStitch for example. SurfStitch is actually a commerce cloud customer. They're a pure play surf wear brand. They sell hard goods, soft goods and clothing and bus fashion around it. But they've got this community, this tribal community of surfers and they're really a successful business, great growth really, really well leveraged on the commerce cloud stack. But when they looked at their business and they looked at their strategic path, they're constrained by warehouses, they're constrained by the capital, but they had in the back of their mind that they thought that, if we could have the full range of surfboards, instead of only taking 20% of the range of surfboards in all sizes, by connecting up to the wholesaler warehouses.Jason:And then to unpick that to the next layer, when you think about it, a surfer is quite a soulful person. They love the outdoors and are they only surfing? Or are they going hiking on the weekend? Are they exploring the outdoors as well? But I don't want to put a hiking gear in my warehouse. That's too risky, but I could go and connect up to Patagonia to take a full range extension from Patagonia without owning the inventory. So by taking a marketplace strategy or really a growth strategy, what they were really able to do is make it easy for them to connect that to a supplier base, to improve their customer experience and really enhance that 360 view of what that customer is trying to do. Not only from a data perspective, but a product and an experience perspective.Stephanie:Got it. That makes a lot more sense now. And it also just seems the role of curation is so important and whoever's curating the best products and not just throwing a thousand things into one marketplace, really thinking, like you said of, okay, you might be hiking, but you're probably not cooking too. Like I'm not going to put cookware in my marketplace with Patagonia stuff and surf boards. It seems like curation is huge when it comes to that. And also knowing what's trending and what their customers will like is a big part.Jason:Yeah, but it also enables this strategy, the ability to fail fast within there as well. If you put it a camping stove on there or a shower after you go for a surf, to clean yourself off, you haven't bought it. You've had a go at growing in there. It didn't work customers didn't like it. So just turn it off.Jason:With Marketplacer what we really focus on as well, is a really strong vetting engine for the sales force customer and any of our customer community so that they... it's just not a free for all, for all of the products flowing through. It's that ease of connectivity into the supplier base. And then it's the strict controls and measures that you can put in place to enable your customer experience within the marketplace strategy, not just "the everything for everyone" experience. If that makes sense?Stephanie:Yeah, it makes sense. I was going to ask when it comes to marketplaces, how do you guys think about marketplace or versus the Amazons and the eBays and Etsy's of the world that seem like they are kind of creating custom curated collections in a way too. But not as much of a niche level where I would say "Okay, we're going to be doing bikes and here's your community and your people." How do you think about the landscape of marketplaces right now?Jason:It's a very interesting landscape, because it's kind of a bit of a cross matrix at the moment, Stephanie. In that there's B to B, B to C and B to B to C plays within what we're trying to do. And then if you take the types of marketplaces the other way, so all three of those really go across all three gamuts. And then if you take the types of marketplaces, you've got the niche and the tribal based marketplaces, and we put media organizations into that bucket. If you imagine all of the great magazines, like we power lots of magazine marketplaces, where Time+Tide is a good example of a watch marketplace, where they have the beautiful content, they have the trust within the industry. They had a community of people looking to buy watches, but they didn't have that connectivity into the supply. But now they've got it. Another really great example is FishBrain, which is the world's largest fishing marketplace.Stephanie:Didn't know that existed. That's awesome.Jason:I'm not a big fishing person, but think of Strava fishing. Think of a really, really large... I think they've got over 13 million users within the United States now. They wanted that into a commerce play, but they didn't want to own inventory. They didn't have a buyership, they didn't have product developers. It was too difficult to do it. So what they did is they partnered and they connected into the world's best fishing suppliers to create a marketplace. Now that has over 60,000 products to sell that you can just buy.Stephanie:Is there ever a chance of them getting lost. When I hear 60,000 products within a fishing marketplace, how do you get found in that big marketplace?Jason:That's an interesting one. So fishing is probably the best industry to do it because what I have learned about fishing is there's lots of micro products for the local areas. So there's lots of little lures and lots of little different tackles setups, the different communities and different areas. There's lots of niche products within the niche. That one makes a ton of sense to have a really big, broad breadth of inventory within that.Jason:So if you think of the tribe, the addressable market behind people trying to take that convergence of content into commerce and contextual commerce, that space is born for a marketplace. Isn't it? It's an affiliate 4.0 where it can connect into the supply banks. Then you look at brands and retailers and franchise groups and cooperatives. If you actually look at the structure of all of those businesses... Co-operatives and franchise by default are marketplaces. They're a masthead brand their third-party inventory is owned by their franchisees groups. What we're finding in this space is we're just increasing the offering that they can have.Jason:We connect up their franchisees group into a single destination. For example, actually within Australia, we run the largest tire business called Bob Jane T-Marts and Bob Jane T-Marts are a really large franchise group. They're a $600 million business. And tires are a complicated product. They seem simple, but they're incredibly complicated because you've got to match every tire to every car to every wheel ever made, ever sold.Jason:But by creating a marketplace strategy within that, they're really famous for solving one problem. We connected up all the franchise groups via our marketplace technology. But if you think about it, what they really have is car data and car ownership data. What else could they sell a person at the BMW, other than tires and wheels that could enhance their car driving experience? You'll start to see lots of these franchise groups, not only connected in unifying their customer experience, but actually starting to think about how can they enhance their customer experience without the cost of capital burden placed that amongst their franchisees group or cooperative structures and buying groups are in the same bucket.Jason:Then if you just think of traditional retailers, whether they're a pure play or a bricks and mortar or a blend of both. Which the world has a blend of both now, right? There's no real, just pure play or bricks and mortar retailers anymore. So the problem they're trying to solve is exactly that problem we talked through with SurfStitch. How do they enhance their customer experience in store or online. Where they can range extend or category extend, to supercharge their commerce journey within that.Jason:And that last sort of bucket within that is that brand or wholesaler journey. And the brand and wholesaler journey is a really interesting one because it does really touch on those three sort of core verticals that I said at the start being B2C, B2B and B2B2C within that.Jason:The first one's pretty obvious from a B2C perspective, if you're a brand and you can see a perfectly complimentary product, why would you want them to leave your platform to buy it from another platform? Why wouldn't you just connect it up to enhance your customer experience?Jason:If you sell shoes for example, I'm going to dumb it down, but if you sold shoes, how could you connect up with a sock company that had the best brand to associate the shoes with socks without actually owning all of those imagery behind it? And we've seen lots of great examples of that. We actually power the Nokia marketplace. If you're thinking of buying the phone, what other connected product and you put in within that connected ecosystem and Google are a partner of Nokia phones globally now, and all of the Google products is going to be available on the Nokia marketplace.Jason:You can start to see this connectivity piece really, really drive home within that. And then from a B2B2C perspective is how do you not cut out your stockists? How do you find a way as a brand or a distributor in a modern world not to cut them out. Whether it's a marketplace, a unified experience, but what our marketplace platform can do is connect it all up. You can cut your retailer into these third party product sales, but without, without actually going against your traditional business model. And we're seeing a fair bit of that momentum behind it as well. Then the growth space and it's going to be really interesting, because I think that the world is saying how, from a B2B perspective, from a traditional brand, when you're selling to retailers when you're consolidating in a B2B industry, how does a marketplace make sense?Jason:There's Alibaba and then there's not much. The interesting play within there is the unfair advantages to businesses is pretty similar then than it is to a B2C perspective. Their unfair advantage is really anchored around their existing stockists or retailer base that they sell into. They've got a great community of sales representatives or sellers on the floor, who are going around and servicing them. How can they then connect up to other suppliers in other industries that could actually self to that community and we make it easier to do that. And there's a really sort of large demand at the moment behind B2B marketplaces as well. It's an interesting thing to call these things marketplaces. They're not all marketplaces, but what we're doing is we're connecting the world to enable supercharged commerce.Stephanie:I love that. I want to hear a little bit about the revenue numbers. When brands embark on this marketplace journey, what are some stories when a new company starts revising your guys' tech?Jason:It's a really interesting story and journey behind it. I'll give you one example during, during COVID, the world's a different place and we all know that, and there's not much point in delving into what's next after COVID. I think everybody's thinking about what's next after COVID but what we fundamentally know today. It's just a different world. It's a different world than it was in the past. And the power of connection during COVID in a digital sense, drove some of the greatest innovation stories that I've seen for some time. And I'll share the story of Providoor. In Australia, this is a case study we rolled out.Jason:It's nearly exactly this week, last year to the day and a great friend of mine, but a celebrity chef Shane Delia. He owns some of the best restaurants in Melbourne and he's got cooking shows on TV and big personality, vibrant, enthusiastic. Had 150 staff behind his restaurant business at four restaurants, one at the airport. The institution restaurants you know, think of Mamasita in New York. These are like famous restaurants within this country. And he emailed me and he just said, "Jason, I'm stuffed. I've got all of these people, I've got food, I'm just throwing into the bin. I've got leases that I've got to pay, but I've got this one glimmer of hope."Jason:"I've just done a trial where yeah, I'm doing ready, sort of made precut food where the customer just has to finish it off at home. So it's like they're getting the magic of a restaurant quality experience in their home."Jason:And he said, "I've done it for a couple of weeks and I'm selling like $5 to 6,000 a day." And I said, "Well, talk me through the problems that you've sold." And he said, "Well we've solved this packaging, we've figured out how to I get it to the customers with the boxes." He did this in a week, like extraordinary innovation. He's, he's sourced the products, the lined boxes, he's got the dry ice, he's fixed the packaging for this. So the tumor is sort of doing, you know, that those types of volumes in a small way. And I said, "How are you delivering them?"Jason:He said, "Well I've got no choice. My chefs are preparing it, My chef's are driving at 35K around Melbourne, to drop it off at people's doorsteps at 4:00 am in the morning." And I said, "Well, you've probably got to solve your logistics problem in a real quick way. But there's something in this, because there's a demand." You're not doing any marketing, your unfair advantage is you're... I call him a B grade celebrity, he probably thinks he's an A grader. But he's got this celebrity audience that he can tap into. He's got trust within the community. The other chefs will trust him. He's never gonna do anything wrong by that industry or community and customers just loved it. If we could solve a couple of problems, i.e, how do we make it easy for all restaurants to sell in the same way and create a marketplace around it.Jason:And then how can we make it easy for people to get the delivery experience behind it? I think you've got the bones of a really good business. Shane's a pretty good hustler. And five weeks later, we'd pulled every string in the world to get Providoor live. Where the best restaurants within the Melbourne CBD was selling to a 35 kilometer radius of the Melbourne CBD, get it delivered in two delivery slots AM and PM. They would cross stock. The trucks would drive around Melbourne pick up every box. Cross stock it into a single parcel. So you would only get a single parcel. You could order from all the restaurants in one. If you were entertaining in your home or just wanted to release from COVID, or you had a birthday party, or mum and dad couldn't get to the restaurant, then you could actually experience it. And after a 12 week period he was on a $100 million rate. Solving those capital problems.Stephanie:And this was from other restaurants as well that he onboarded onto essentially the marketplace that he created. It started with his restaurant. He brought on others as well. What does the cut look like for him versus the restaurants that are also selling on the marketplace that he essentially established?Jason:Yeah, it was again, really interesting. Shane took, I think it was a 15% slice of the pie. So he actually...Stephanie:Who decides, or you decide when you create the marketplace how much you...?Jason:Yeah.Stephanie:Nice, okay.Jason:It's part of the marketplace platform, when you create a marketplace. We solve all of those commission calculations and you choose, as running that marketplace, what each seller gets, and you can change it by product or category. Now you can do really complex commission calculations, but we also manage all of the seller payouts. You imagine that volume in that period of time, if you're cutting checks, so you're doing individual payments it's un-scalable. So that's why he had to... besides the fact that's why you needed a marketplace platform to, to scale at that rate, but it just shows you if you can leverage those couple of unfair advantages and pull it together in a really neat way and solve a problem, how big you can get quickly.Stephanie:That's crazy. It sounds like you kind of want to make sure you have an audience first or partner with someone who does already have, like you said, that tribe, who's kind of waiting that you can tap into that. How do you go about even convincing customers to come and buy on a marketplace? Are you doing anything around exclusivity where it's if you're selling your bikes or your box meals or whatever on Marketplacer, you can't also sell, I don't know, on DoorDash, do you have DoorDash in Australia? Or something similar.Stephanie:How do you think about creating that moat around the market places that are building up?Jason:I think any business, whether it's a marketplace or not a market place, you create moat. And if you could get the number one selling product of the world and get it exclusive to your business, whether you own it and send it yourself, or whether it comes direct from the supplier. I would a hundred percent recommend that every single day of the week.Jason:In Shane's situation and in Providoor's situation he solved some pretty big problems. No one else in the world, in my opinion, in a five week period could have created this marketplace. And then secondly he partnered exclusively with the logistics company that was an under utilized fruit. You imagined it was a fruit delivery business where they were delivering to corporates, their fruit boxes. And they went from a hundred percent capacity to 0% capacity, but then Shane took them back to a hundred percent capacity. So you've got to, you have to find very innovatively, underutilized, cold, refrigerated delivery network in a really short space of time. He created a couple of really, really solid moats that enabled it, nearly impossible for somebody else to do it in that period. But they were just extraordinary. But the short answer to your question, I'd always promote a moat.Stephanie:So try and make things exclusive, if possible. How do you bring... what are some of these brands methods of bringing their customers onto a new platform? Because that does kind of feel like it could be an experience that might cause a bit of friction of like, "Oh, I'm always used to either just buying directly from your website or just buying from Amazon." What kind of tactics should a brand use if they're trying to convince someone to come and buy on a new platform that maybe they haven't heard of before.Jason:You're talking from the end consumer experience when they're buying from you. It's all around trust in the process. It's in that front end customer experience or any communication around it, it's about building trust and rapport around building a marketplace community. And there's many techniques you can use around that.Jason:Some companies choose not to even say who the seller is on the marketplace. They take a really hard supplier agreement and they say, here's your SLA supplies. If you don't supply under these terms and conditions in these ways, then we're going to exclude you from our community, moving forward. Other marketplaces take the opinion of, "I'll let you rate my supply. I'll let you rate your seller." So it's going to be a customer led trust build up around it.Jason:Other marketplaces over time have put their own sort of ratings and experience... the one thing I'll say around the customer journey when you don't physically own the product is you've got to be really clever and your communicative style. The items might not appear in one parcel, items maybe sent at different times. And if you can bring your customer and community along that journey, they're very attuned to it in this world that you don't get one single parcel from one single vendor every single time and boxes can appear on different days, just as long as the communication strategy around when they're turning up. I mean, the timelines as a customer's experience is really well handled. I think it's a problem that's that's well solved in market.Stephanie:Always good to make sure you're doing it in a trustworthy way where your customers are like, of course I'll go where something's being sold and there's good curated products there. What are some best practices around developing that community and keeping your community engaged and making them want to come to your marketplace that you built up. What kind of tactics do you see happening behind the scenes that are working?Jason:We're seeing at a little bit of scale at the moment, the loyalty programs being attached back into the marketplace strategy. And I think it's a space that's going to be really interesting moving forward, whether it's loyalty or membership economies or subscription economies around it, it's something that's definitely an interesting space.Jason:Take Myer's another example within our region, but Myer's a really large department store. It's the Macy's of Australia. It's the number one department store. They've had some really challenging times, pre COVID and obviously during COVID. Big box department stores, lots of inventory, really expensive leases. And they've kind of been kicked off from every corner. Right. But what they did have is they had an incredibly loyal customer base that actually had a brand affiliation with Meyer, but most importantly had a really strong brand affiliation with the Meyer loyalty program, because it was such a good rewards program.Jason:When they launched their marketplace, they actually gave the customer base the same points that they would earn on Meyer across all third party marketplace products. And you could use your points to buy from all of the third party products.Stephanie:That's imposing.Jason:Exactly. And we won a, I can't say who, but we've won a major global airline at the moment where instead of just being able to book airfares using your airline points, now you can buy 40,000 products using your points, promote burn perspective from your airline miles. So I think what you're going to find is this community of traditional loyalty programs or earn and burn points systems, being able to tap into really broaden their range to become really big, meaningful marketplace strategy, loyalty program.Stephanie:That's super smart. The one thing that's coming to mind is thinking about data privacy and how does the sharing work, especially if you're onboarding other brands onto your platform, I'm guessing I would want access to that customer data. I'd want to be able to talk to them, especially if I'm shipping something to them, or even someone's viewing me as a person that's shipping it to them, even if I'm not really in the backend. What does the sharing of the, maybe customer information look like, in a way that's probably protected and keeps everyone safe.Jason:Say for example, we're talking to the commerce cloud community. If you're a commerce cloud customer, you're the merchant of record in that instance, aren't you? You're always controlling the customer record. You're controlling, you're receiving the funds yourself. But you do have to share the customer address and you do have to share some details of that customer because they've got to receive the items. You've really got to make sure your supplier agreements are quite stringent around data privacy. And then within the marketplace platform, there's a couple of configuration points where you can mask email address and not mask email address. So there's configuration around customer privacy settings that gets forwarded through to that end seller within there as well. But what we actually find is that the broader supplier or seller community is unbelievably respectful of the end customer because they're attuned to selling in this methodology now, and they know if they break or breach those privacy laws or those privacy policies that you set up as a marketplace operator, is that they're going to be cut off and, and they're going to lose that whole channel.Jason:We've had basically no problems of that over the journey of Marketplacer. It's something that's a very small, minimal risk.Stephanie:Amazing. Let's talk a little bit about ads. And I'm thinking about you're this big marketplace. Maybe if you're the fishing one, you've got 60,000 products, I could see you guys having an entire ad unit or the person who maybe is owning the marketplace, starting to create a demand side platform when it comes to delivering ads. And how are you guys approaching that right now with all the brands that you're onboarding?Jason:The world of relevant display and sponsored contents and contextual commerce, back in to market places is a real interesting space. Because if you can not only just send your products to a third party marketplace, but then you can buy specific media around it and launch products within it. It's super exciting. We're actually integrated into Google DMP, and all of those great ad serving systems within that. And what you'll find especially as the world moves into a headless commerce situation, is that the brands can put whatever DMP they want into the commerce cloud headless stack. They can be really quite innovative around, not only just creating traditional revenue streams for the product they own. Not only creating modern revenue streams in the fact that they can sell things they don't own, but now they can actually turn their traditional retail businesses into a media business as well, which obviously comes at a much higher gross margin than physically owning the inventory.Stephanie:Any innovative stories that you see happening around the advertising space within Marketplacer? That brands are maybe trying just new and different things because of the operating model of this new business they didn't have access to before?Jason:The obvious one that just comes to mind is actually BikeExchange. BikeExchange does exactly that every single day of the week. It connects live into all of the retailers. As part of the Marketplacer platform... because some of the problem in the marketplace scenario is how do you make it easy for your sellers to connect? How do you make sure that the inventory is accurate and live? How do you make it so that when a retailer of stock list receives the order, that they can just seamlessly process it, without having, necessarily a billion spreadsheets rolling every direction for everything they sell. We sold that in a really nice, elegant way where if you're on... and if you've got an existing POS system, so point of sale system or an existing e-commerce engine, we built pre-built connectors for the majority of them in the world.Jason:If you're a bike seller selling on BikeExchange and you're on Lightspeed and you wanna send your inventory into the BikeExchange marketplace, it takes minutes. What would typically take hours? Why is this important from a media perspective? It's because then the brands on BikeExchange or Specialized or Trek, or any of the big brands when they're launching a new product, they can actually drive the leads into stores that have stock available today. You can get very clever around your display and media allocation and where you drive the sales to. And a physical stockists level within that marketplace strategy, which is pretty cool.Stephanie:That's huge. I think about the times I try and order stuff Home Depot. And it takes me 15 minutes trying to find what store you can go to pick it up. I'm like, why is this so hard? Just don't show it to me if it's not within 20 miles of where I'm at.Jason:Exactly. And that sort of relevance posts, zip code, allocation and inventory allocation is something that comes out of that marketplace assistant, but it's all structured around live connectivity back into the source seller system. Obviously if a seller wants to connect manually and they've got a few products or they've got a CSV uploader, or they've got a great API, but it's this pre-built connector platform that's enabling our marketplace at the scale at a rapid rate.Stephanie:That's awesome, so where do you all want to be in the next two to three years? What are you planning and prepping for and building for right now, other than scaling and IPO'ing and doing all the fun, things like that.Jason:I think what really drives us at Marketplacer is we just want our customers to grow and to grow in a really sustainable way. Where they can, they can enhance their customer experience. So we've really launched hard within the United States today. We've announced that Salesforce ventures has actually bought a stake in Marketplacer and that enables us... yeah, we're so humbled by it. It's such a great experience to deal with that Salesforce community, but what that enables is any commerce cloud customer globally to now really look at Marketplacer as the way to significantly grow your business and grow your customer experience within that.Jason:It gives us deep access to the Salesforce product team. Gives us deep access to the implementation partner community. It gives us deep access to the actual Salesforce customer success team. What that really enables us to do is to help that Salesforce commerce cloud community grow and connect up to all of these great suppliers, make it easy for you to supercharge that business. And it's a core focus of ours over the next sort of 12 to 18 months, for sure.Stephanie:That's awesome. After hearing all this I'm like, why wouldn't you try this out? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of a marketplace, start a marketplace, so many opportunities and easy ways to scale that maybe it would be hard for single brands to do on their own. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's huge.Jason:No thank you so much and it's a big shout out to how the commerce cloud Salesforce, commerce cloud leadership are thinking at the moment. They're really putting that customer lens first and, and you're trying to grab those trends and you build it back within their community as well.Jason:It takes a little while for you to get your head around it. But when you dumb it down, we make it easy for you to sell products that you don't own. So you can supercharge commerce and grow. That sort of one line, and that sentence can start to really resonate with you. And maybe out of today you're not thinking this is my path, but it might just get those thought bubbles going to say, Hey, what about this supplier? What about this supplier? And if I only had those products, I'd love to try that one, but I don't want to buy it. It starts to connect it all up.Stephanie:Really good way to explain it. All right let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is of course, brought to you by our friends at Salesforce commerce cloud, which they got many shout outs well-deserved throughout this interview. So that is great. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Jason?Jason:I'm ready.Stephanie:We'll do the hard one first. What, one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Jason:I'd like to say the evolution of Marketplacer.Stephanie:That's okay. You do you. You can say whatever you want.Stephanie:What's one thing from 2020 that you hope sticks around throughout 2021?Jason:The ability to put the customer first and solve problems from a customer lens, when there was no other way to do it. And I think that transformative thinking of traditional businesses in that lens is going to put them in a really good light moving forward. We saw the acceleration of five or six years of thinking and thought, and decision-making in the space of six weeks. And just, don't let that go. Don't let that go. Let that stick with you forever. Because I think it's a unique opportunity.Stephanie:What's one thing you don't understand today, that you wish you did?Jason:French. No, I actually don't personally know how to program. I've never been a programmer and it's been to my advantage because I've never got sucked into it, but one day in life, I'd love to actually learn how it all stitches together and works.Stephanie:There you go. Well, that's a good skill to have these days. Let me know if it's hard, I'm guessing it is. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Jason:It would probably be about surfing to be honest. And it would have to be Kelly Slater.Stephanie:There you go. That's a good one. And then the last one what's up next on your reading list?Jason:It's actually interesting, because I bought it yesterday. I'm actually reading about gut health at the moment and the benefits of gut health. So I bought the CSIRO gut health book to understand how that can have benefits right throughout your life, from sleeping patterns to energy, to that holistic sort of view that the power of food and what it can do for you or, or can't do for you.Stephanie:Good, you can send me a TLDR of what I should be doing and I'll just listen to you.Jason:It doesn't mean I'm going to do it though Stephanie, this is the problem with reading. You don't always do what you should.Stephanie:We will do it. We will manifest it into our life. We will do it. All right Jason, this interview has been so fun, really a good time hearing about Marketplacer and where you guys are headed. Thank you for coming on, where can people find out more about you and Marketplacer?Jason:Traditional channels marketplacer.com and Jason White on LinkedIn and Marketplacer on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Jason:Thanks so much Stephanie, appreciate your time.

The Beatles told us that All You Need Is Love. Howard Tiersky says the same thing — but he’s talking about brands, not the whole of human existence. Howard is the CEO of FROM, The Digital Transformation Agency, which has helped brands such as Mattel, Barnes & Noble Education, Mall of America, NBC, Avis-Budget, and more transform to compete and win in a new digital world — and they succeed by getting customers to love the brands and everything they offer. Whether you’re a shiny new ecommerce start-up or a legacy brand with decades of history behind you, getting a consumer to actually love you is a multi-step process that is getting harder and harder as the digital landscape evolves. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we dig into what the pyramid of brand love looks like and how companies should be working to climb their way to the top. Plus, he reveals the biggest mistake he sees companies making that causes potential customers to shop elsewhere, and he gives some strategies to rectify that situation and improve your bottom line. Enjoy!Main Takeaways:The Switching Cost is Zero: On the internet, it’s easy for a customer to move from one brand to another and it costs them nothing to do so. That means a brand’s first duty is to explain very quickly and clearly that it can and will solve a consumer’s problem. This is the area where most brands fail because they don’t have clear, simple messaging or content that tells their story and delivers their value prop instantly.Keep It Simple: Doing customer research is the best and easiest way to find the kinks in your website and processes. Setting up a simple focus group to watch how customers are using your site to see where their pain points are or where they are getting stuck can reveal the most basic and easy-to-solve problems that could increase your bottom line.Pyramid of Love: Creating a brand that people truly love is a challenge that has to be tackled in stages. There are specific levels of customer affection that you need to build up and that eventually culminates in love. But reaching those levels takes work and requires a brand to take specific actions. What are the levels and how do you reach them? Tune in to find out.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today on the show, I'm chatting with Howard Tiersky, the CEO of FROM, The Digital Transformation Agency and the author of The Wall Street Journal bestselling book, Winning Digital Customers, The Antidote to Irrelevance. Did I do that justice Howard?Howard:Perfect. Stephanie, thank you so much. And thanks for having me.Stephanie:Thanks for coming on the show. So I wanted to start with something that we were chatting with a little bit before this, that your whole company is about reverse engineering love, which I actually really liked that saying. And I think I'm going to start using it in my personal life now, but I want to kind of start there to describe what is FROM and why do you say that?Howard:Sure. Well, what FROM is, is a kind of a combination between a consulting firm and a digital agency. We work with large brands like Avis, AAA, NBC Universal, Airbus, and our mission is to help them create a better customer experience that ultimately generates more customer love. Because in our experience, the companies that have customers that feel passionately about them, that feel appreciated by them, and appreciate those brands, those are the brands that do the best in the marketplace by all the most common measures of business success, revenue growth, profitability, and share price.Stephanie:Awesome. And a lot of the brands that you're working with they've been around for a long time. I mean, I was looking at, let's see, some of them. You said Airbus, Barnes and Noble, Facebook, Verizon, Spotify, Amazon. And I think I even saw it was like American Girl, which I used to have back in the day. And it seems like you catered towards the brands that have been here for a while and are now kind of seeking help on like how to get to that next level, how to find new customers.Howard:Well, that's exactly right. I mean, we have worked with some, what you might call sort of pure digital brands like Amazon and Spotify and different things. But the majority of what we do is really working with great classic brands that are faced with a real challenge because they need to transform to be relevant in a new age. And particularly when a company is large and has been around for a long time, that's not an easy thing to do. And so this is really our area of expertise, is how do you... Everything from the vision and the design concept of a future customer journey to dealing with the politics and resistance to change that you find in most large organizations.Stephanie:Yep. So when you're initially approaching some of these brands, I mean, how do you even go about finding out what the issues are? Because especially with the company size, it seems hard to go in and be, there's probably a thousand things going wrong, or everything feels like a fire in a larger company. How you start pinpointing, here's some of the things that are maybe not up to par right now, and that we need to start evolving and here's the game plan going forward?Howard:Sure. Well, the good news is most companies ultimately want the same things. They want more customers, they want more revenue, they want increased profitability, they want increased share price. So at the very top level, it's usually not too hard to figure out what the company's after. And one of my fundamental philosophies of everything I've done in business for 25 years is this idea that most business value is derived by influencing human behavior. If you can get people, people like customers, employees, shareholders, if you can get them to do what you want them to do, you're going to have a great business. And if you aren't able to get, for example, your customers to do what you want them to do, then you're probably going to be in big trouble, no matter what ERP system you've implemented or what other kinds of things you may be doing.Howard:So the first question is, all right, you want more customers, you want more revenue and profitability? Great. What behaviors do you need by customers, employees, et cetera, in order to get that business outcome? And in my book, I talk about many of the most common behaviors, but you can imagine what they are getting customers to buy more, to buy more frequently, to upsell to more expensive products, to refer you to their friends. And also there's some behaviors that are sort of value destroying behaviors. For example, customers calling you on the phone every day and spending hours with your support desk getting help, right? And so getting clear on, okay, well, if we can drive these behaviors, then that equates to business success.Howard:And then from there, the question is, all right, well, what drives behavior? I mean, how do you get people to do what you want them to do? And the answer is their thoughts and feelings. People behave in a certain way because of their thoughts and feelings. And then lastly, the question is, all right, well, how do we control people's thoughts and feelings? Where do those come from? And the answer is from their experiences, your thoughts and feelings come from experiences. So our job is to help conceive what would be the next generation set of experiences, a customer journey, that will drive the thoughts and feelings that will drive the behavior that equate to business results. So a very often it's research, doing a lot of ethnography, task analysis, different types of interviews, surveys, looking at existing data, for example, funnels on sites, things like that to understand well, to what degree are these things happening today? Because of course, no doubt, there is some degree of success in almost any business. We don't do often a great deal of success. And what's holding back the increase in that? For every customer that buys, there's a bunch that don't buy. Why not? For every customer that buys at level A and never comes back, why don't they come back, et cetera?Howard:So once we understand those things, well, then it's just a question of figuring out well, okay, how do you start to remove those barriers? Are we confusing them? Are we frustrating them? Are we annoying them? Are we just not offering a compelling enough value proposition, et cetera, et cetera?Stephanie:Yep. Are there any themes when it comes to the barriers within all these brands, were you have seen this come up time and time again, because maybe they have not thought digitally first because there are similar theme around customer barriers to buying?Howard:There are a number of very common themes. That's really a great question, actually. I would say one common theme is being failing to make it really clear, really fast, exactly what you can do for somebody. Anytime a customer is coming to you, they probably don't care much about you, that's just the way it is. Maybe they do if you've already inspired customer love. People really care about Apple. They really care about The 49ers, they really care about, I don't know, Aeropostale, or some fashion brand. Maybe they care about Rolex. But those are a very small percentage of brands that have inspired customer love. But before you get to that point, most of the customers that come to you, they really only care about themselves. What is it that they're trying? They're there to solve some kind of problem, right? Their kid is having a birthday party and they need to find an entertainer. Or their car is broken down and they need to get it fixed or whatever.Howard:And so how quickly do you make it really clear what you offer them? And it's fascinating to me how often brands don't do that clearly. They have different messages, they make it too hard for someone to really answer the question, can you help me solve my problem right now? And because the internet in this environment where it's so easy to just go back to Google, go to another website, it's like when you walk into a store, if you don't get clarity within the first 10 seconds that they're going to have what you need, the switching costs of getting in your car and driving to another store is at least a little bit high. But when you're on the internet, the switching cost is zero or so close to zero might as well be. So that means you've got to make sure someone understands right away they have a high probability of you being a solution to what it is that they need.Howard:So I think that's one thing. And if I were to just mention one more, it's just making it easy for people to transact. Sometimes I like to think of ecommerce as being basically about two things, persuasion and transaction. First, you got to get them to decide yes, on whatever it is you want them to do, and then you've got to get from there to the point that you have their money in your Stripe account or whatever, and that screwed up along the way. And how many times, Stephanie, how many times have you gone on a website and gone, I want to buy this thing and then started the process of checking out, but for one reason or another, you never wind up buying it?Stephanie:Or you go back to your cart, a day late and you're like, why is my stuff's not in there anymore? Why don't you just save that for a little bit. I'm ready to buy but now I give up. I give up easily though, that kind of stuff.Howard:And there's so many things that can confuse somebody about the checkout process, about the sales tax calculation, about the terms and conditions, about, I mean, it's about the promo code, why didn't the promo code work? So just really getting compulsive about asking what is everything that holds people back? How can I make sure that in addition to doing my very best to persuade people that they should say yes to whatever I'm offering, that I lose none of them between their intention and the completion of the transaction. So we do a lot of analysis and research to try to understand how many people are you really losing in that process. And of course, most people do that, right? They study abandoned shopping carts, things like that. So most people have a fairly high percentage of people, but of course not every abandoned shopping cart was somebody who had an intention to buy, some aren't right? There's various reasons people might be putting things in their shopping carts.Howard:But what percentage of those people are you losing? And then again, it goes back to a simple, what's holding them back? What is happening to stop them from completing what was their intention? And, I mean, I'll give you one tiny example. My company is from digital. Our domain is from.digital. My email address is ends in an at from.digital. It's a little bit of an uncommon first level domain, right? Many more dresses and in .com. And I would say a good 25% of ecommerce sites, when I check out, if I have to enter my email address, tell me that my email is invalid. It's not. Now, and I have a solution to that. I don't always abandoned because I have some other Gmail address, I'll give him something else. But these little problems along the way can very often add up.Howard:And the analogy I like to use sometimes is it's like if I had taped an extension cord across a hallway, let's say I was setting up a Christmas tree and I just had to run an extension cord across the hallway and I duct taped it down, so hopefully no one would trip on it, 50 people might just walk by and step over that duct tape, just fine. And 60 people and 70 people, but eventually, maybe it's the hundredth person, they trip on that tape down duct tape cord, and then another 50, 100 people and another person trips. It's a very small percentage of people. The vast majority of people deal with it just fine. But if you're running a billion dollar ecommerce site, and 1% of your customers are getting caught up by something like that and not purchasing, how do you feel about giving up 1% of your revenue? And for some of our clients, the answer is that 1% is a lot of money. And then if you have six, eight, 12, 15 things along these lines that don't affect everybody, but affect a few people and you start to remove those obstacles, all of a sudden you unlock a whole bunch more sales.Howard:And that's the optimization side of, if you will, digital transformation. And then of course, there's more of a envisioning, a dramatically different journey. But I think so often, and I guess this is my long answer to your question about what are the common themes, one of the common themes I see is the lack of what I call hygiene in ecommerce experiences. And by hygiene, I mean, most digital experiences are being constantly adjusted, tweaked changed. And of course, browsers are changing and iOS, operating systems are changing. And unless you're continuously looking through that saying, have I unintentionally planted a confusion bomb somewhere? Have I added a new feature, but it has a label or has a button that distracts from my main button or whatever? I've just added a cool new feature, but it pushed down something on the page, and now my checkout button is below the fold or whatever it might be, unless you're continuously looking for those problems, they'll creep in like weeds and they'll pull down your conversion. And that hygiene process is something that I find as a common theme, many of the largest brands in the world fail to do often enough.Stephanie:Oh, that's good. So, I mean, how do you go about identifying, I guess more like behavioral issues or how people are actually thinking? I mean, it's one thing to solve the tech and the UI aspect of it and make it easy to check out, but what about trying to figure out going deeper with the customer to really understand why didn't you check out, why didn't you follow through if everything else is there tech wise?Howard:Well, one of the things that I go into in some depth in my book is how to do customer research. And actually because at a certain point we had to start taking stuff out of the book because it was so crazy long, we were afraid of someone would drop it on their toe, they would injure themselves and we have a lawsuit on our hands for publishing such a long book. So we started to put stuff on the supplemental website. So I actually published for people to buy the book and additional PDF and a bunch of videos and all kinds of stuff. And the reason I mentioned all that is because research in customers to really understand them is foundational to being able to do all the things I'm talking about. You can't guess, and you probably can't figure it out even by looking at the site. I mean, you can look at a site and sometimes see some things that are probably problematic, and I do that all the time.Howard:But to really know, you use various types of customer research, such as bringing customers into an office or a lab or on Zoom and giving them tasks and saying, okay, great, go on my ecommerce site, here's the story. Your aunt's birthday's coming up. She's 62 years old. You need to find her present or birthday's in two days, you need to make sure you can get it to her in time. And and then you observe how that person uses that website. And as they do, you can ask them questions or we like to ask people to actually speak out loud, kind of verbalize their stream of conscious thoughts. And of course you record it, and you're studying and understanding, okay, well, what's easy, what's problematic, what's confusing, what's frustrating? And you can learn so much.Howard:And you do that for a few dozen customers and you start to see patterns and you start to see themes. And depending on how many different customer segments, a given website targets, you might do even more than that. But even still, it doesn't take that long, a week, two weeks. And in that time alone, you can learn what many of those issues are. You're observing people and then you're having the option to ask questions. If all of a sudden someone's using a page and all of a sudden they get that look on their face, they're fused or whatever you say, "Oh, what are you thinking right now?" They can say, "I'm thinking I can't figure out what the next step is." "Well, what were you expecting to see?" "Well, I figured there'd be like a next button, but I don't see one." Okay, well, and of course there might be a next button right there in front of their nose, but maybe it doesn't say next, maybe it says continue, right? And for whatever reason, that's not what they're looking for.Howard:So, and if a bunch of people are saying that maybe you should relabel the button. And as simple and obvious as something like that is it's shocking how often we find problems that are that simple. Then of course not all problems are that simple to solve, but very often that kind of low-hanging fruit. Can you imagine rewording a button and getting an extra $600,000 a week in sales? I mean, we've seen things like that repeatedly, of course, assuming the site has very, very high volume. So it's really, customer research just is many companies do some forms of customer research, of course, but my experience it's way, way under utilized. And then it's also about how you do the research. And so we've tried to be very detailed in the book and in the supplemental materials, suggesting some of the key things to do to make sure you're getting, you're really getting the insight and you're getting the most accurate. If you take a customer and say, "Hey, take a look at this website and tell me how you think we should improve it," you're not going to get a good information. You have to approach it in the right way.Stephanie:So what things didn't make it into the book that you wish made it in? What's not in the supplemental material is not in the book and you're like, man, knowing what I know now in 2021, I wish we would've had this in there.Howard:One is, I've done since then analysis on this idea of customer love and shown a bunch of examples. We have actually a scale of customer love from love down, sort of like what's the range from? It starts with love then it goes down to resonant, then it goes down to relevant, then it goes down to relevant and ultimately non-existent. And so this idea that companies exist in terms of the mind of any one customer at any time along this continuum. In subsequent to that, we talked about some case studies that show let's look at Apple, let's look at Disney, but let's look at some companies at each level, let's look at companies that are resonant, like Verizon, for example, great brand. A lot of people like them. They love them? No, probably not quite. Exactly.Howard:And then you go down from one from there, maybe now you're at Citibank and then you go down another one and maybe you're at Radio Shack. I don't know. So looking at them and then looking at their financial performance and really being able to show how this correlates. And then the other thing that isn't in the book that probably should have been, is answering the questions, how do you know what level you're at? And we actually have different tools we use, but one of them is a very simple test. We ask one simple question. And based on the answer to that question, we're able to say whether it's a brand that you love, or that's only resonant, or that's relevant, or that's irrelevant or non-existence. And the question is very simple, if this brand disappeared tomorrow, how would you feel? How would you feel Stephanie if Apple disappeared tomorrow?Stephanie:Oh, that's a good question. I'd be super sad because I own Apple everything.Howard:So if you'd be super sad, if you'd be distraught, if you'd be ah, really emotional, then that's a brand you love, that's a brand you love. That's the sign of love. But if you say, well, I be kind of bummed. I'd be like darn.Stephanie:[inaudible].Howard:Exactly. Well then that's a brand that's resonant for you. It's you care about it. I mean, you don't care about it like that much, but like, you'd be like, oh, rats. That's a disappointment. And then the next level down, if you're, well, I need to know that. I've no emotional response, but thank you for telling me that that brand is gone because gosh, I usually get my gas from Chevron. And I guess if they're gone, I'm going to have to go to British Petroleum. So thank you mental note. At least it mattered to you, it affected you, but not in a way that you're emotional about it. That's what we call a relevant brand. It matters, but you don't have an emotional connection. And then below that, if it's like, you're like, who's gone. Who are they? I didn't even know they were still around. Well then now you're down in this sort of irrelevant type range.Howard:And we do surveys like that all the time to try to understand which other brands that really people do love because a key question is, well, what are those brands doing? How are they inspiring love? And one thing that is in the book then is we showed the pyramid of how do you inspire love? What are the three things you need to do to get your customers to have that feeling of love? And that's in the book.Stephanie:And so what are the things to do? Because I'm thinking about a brand like car insurance, whoever's cheapest, don't care Travelers, Geico, whatever it takes, I'll just go with whoever. I don't feel myself ever feeling loving towards those kinds of brands. It doesn't really matter what they do. So how would a brand like that go about inspiring love when you're compared to someone like Apple?Howard:Right, right. So I'll answer your question and it's really not just for car rental, sorry car insurance, but for all brands. And I'll tell you the formula, which is a pretty straight formula. But before that, I want to tell you this, I've worked with a number of auto insurance companies over the years, including Allstate, Farmers, Mercury, a little bit with State Farm, CNA, so a lot. And I've done a lot of research over the years with customers of car insurance. And I will tell you this, there are without doubt people who love their car insurance companies.Stephanie:Oh, this is not me.Howard:I realize it's not you. And I'll be honest. This is not me, it's not me either. But I have been in customer research sessions and I have interviewed people who they are with the same car insurance company that their parents used, and they will never switch no matter what.Stephanie:Why?Howard:They are applying for life.Stephanie:Why are they so committed?Howard:Right, exactly. Why? So let's talk about why, but let me talk about it in the context of the recipe. So how do you get someone, how do you get a customer, how do you inspire a customer to love a brand? Three, just sort of show up in the book, a diagram of the pyramid, three levels. The bottom of the pyramid is to consistently meet their needs. And that is not enough to inspire love, but it is required. Whatever your area of, whether you're delivering pizza or whether you're a place that they buy power tools, or you're hotel or whatever it is, what are their needs, you are consistently meeting those needs. That's your base.Howard:Then the next level up is to periodically delight the customer, to do something above and beyond what you have to do and what you're expected. And then the top level, and that will get you farther up that continuum, but probably not to love. In order to love a brand you have to feel that they stand for something, they have kind of a value system that you reflect, that you see in yourself, a value system that you resonate with. In fact, to that last point, that's why we see some brands now that have taken a strong political stand, and by the way, a value doesn't have to be political. But like when Nike did the thing with Colin Kaepernick and demonstrated their support for Black Lives Matter, that had a massively positive impact on their standing in the market and their share price, and then their sales, because they were taking a stand for something that a lot of people believed in.Howard:And even though that also meant that they were taking a stand that some people believe the opposite and said, I'll never buy another Nike shoe in my life. And that did happen. And there are some people who won't buy Nike shoes because of that, the net impact was enormously positive because the love that they inspired meant so much more business than the people that turned away from them. And you can say the same, see the same thing on the opposite end of the political spectrum. There's a Chick-fil-A not too far from my house. And Chick-fil-A of course has taken strong stands on extremely conservative right wing social values. And I got to tell you there's police at that Chick-fil-A every day to manage the drive through lane, because there are so many people who want to buy Chick-fil-A sandwiches.Howard:And I have been told, I think I might've had one like years and years ago, but I'm not going to Chick-fil-A for the same kind of reasons, but I don't think there's anything that's special about what Chick-fil-A sells. And I think part of the reason of their popularity is because people... Like what they stand for. And you could say the same thing on the right of someone like a Hobby Lobby or other. And by the way, I'll just close this answer with one thought, which is why, why, why do these three things together create such an emotional reaction? And the answer is because they push the three levers, the three emotional levers that really inspire love.Howard:And what are they? When you demonstrate, when you consistently meet someone's needs, you're demonstrating to them that you understand them because you can't meet the needs if you don't understand. So that when someone's always there for me, I'm like, "They get me, they understand what I need, or they understand, I want that coffee hot when I get it, or they understand that I need whatever it is." When you delight someone, when you go above and beyond periodically, but you demonstrate another emotional thing, you demonstrate they care about me. They didn't have to do this extra thing, right. I was going to give them my money anyway. And they went and they did this extra thing. And that demonstrates that they care about me. So many brands they're constantly saying to their customers, "Thank you for your business." And all that kind of stuff.Howard:And man, that just goes right past people, right? How often do you believe when you get a bill from your utility company at the bottom, it says, "We appreciate you as a customer."Stephanie:You are like, "[inaudible 00:25:09]. You're welcome."Howard:Yeah, that's printed on the form, right? Come on, how stupid are we? We might as well not bother. I mean, it doesn't hurt or anything, but come on, people are very cynical. But when you make a genuine gesture that they knew took money, took effort that demonstrates. When someone at Zappos shoes goes out of their way to help you with something, or I was at an Avis Rental Car yesterday, and I observed somebody helping someone on the phone because they had a problem with the car for like 15 or 20 minutes and they were clearly doing everything they could. Way above and beyond what you would expect. When you get that, that demonstrates to someone that not by telling, but by showing that you care about them.Howard:And then the third level, when you express values that they resonate with, that makes someone feel that they are like me. There's a humanity there, not just a business. And that they share something about my belief or my values about the world. And when you combine those things together, and by the way, many companies don't do this. Many people, if we said, what does Ben & Jerry stand for? What does Whole Foods stand for? What does Apple stand for? I think most people would say something that is sort of [inaudible]. But if someone said, what was the auto insurance company that you were talking about?Stephanie:Travelers. Yeah [inaudible].Howard:Travelers. What is Travelers stand for? What does GEICO stand... You could say, well, GEICO stands for saving your 15%. But that's not a value, right? I mean, it might be a value in the sense of a discount, but it's not a human value, right? There's nothing wrong with saving people 15%, but it's not the kind of value that Nike stands for, or the kind of value that Apple stands for. We believe in you, we believe in unlocking your personal creative freedom and capabilities. What is Citibank stand for? There's so many brands. What is United Airlines stand for? And that's a great example. And by the way, I like United Airlines. I fly them all the time. fly the friendly skies, does anyone believe that United Airlines is the friendly skies? It's just words.Stephanie:I believe it. But I mean, I think that just shows that I don't think brands are able to tell their stories very well in a way that connects. I mean, like a political stance, I think that's an easy thing to jump on because it's like newsjacking. Something's going on. I'm going to take a stance on it. I think that's easy. But to actually tell your story without an event going on, to try and get news around it, I mean, that is still think is hard for large brands. I was just reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letter. I don't know if you also read that for fun like me.Howard:No, I don't.Stephanie:Maybe now you're like, "Nah."Howard:I probably should.Stephanie:It's great. I mean, he was going through the companies that they acquired and why he's going to bet big on America and he'll never bet against it again. And he went through the backstory of these companies that he acquired. I think Ikea was one of them. And it was just very interesting to see how he could storytell better for these very, very large companies. And going through why he even was interested in investing in them in the first place. I'm like, "That is what needs to be told." That startup story, yes, a huge brand now, but how did they get there and how you instill that message around your company without just having to newsjack or jump on politics.Howard:Right. Well, and actually it's funny because you asked about things that weren't in the book and one of the other things that's not in the book, but I did a live cast on Subsequent is the answer to that very question. How do you figure out? Well, actually there's sort of two questions. One is how do you figure out what your brand really stands for? Because some brands were birthed standing for something. Toms Shoes or something like that. And so the people that were attracted to that brand, both as customers, but also as employees, they understood what the brand was about. So you wind up with a bunch of people at that brand who believe in that mission, because that's what it was when they came. But when you start with a company that doesn't have that, then the question becomes, okay, so how do you achieve it?Howard:How do you come up with what it is? How do you figure that out? That's a challenge. And then also, and I did a live cast on that, but then also, and to your question, then how do you express that? How do you get the world? Newsjacking is one way or taking a stand on a political issue. But so anyway, so I did another one on what I call the seven Ps, which are just seven different ways. And you don't have to do all seven, but you probably want to do more than one of how you take the value that you're about, whether it's wholesome food, like Whole Foods, or whether it's personal, creative tools that unleash your creative potential. What have you like Apple and how do you actually get that to be something real in the world that people believe in and really see that you are standing for those values.Howard:And one of those Ps is positioning, which means basically telling people, right, which is what a lot of brands do. This is what we stand for. But if you only do that... What I always say is positioning serves only one purpose, which is to create cynicism, to create doubt, which is good. It's good to do that. Because if you tell people what you stand for, they're going to not believe you. And then they're going to look for evidence. And if you have the other Ps or some of the other Ps, and the evidence is there, and then they start to look for the evidence, then they'll start to see that it's true. Brands that are really strong at standing for something don't even need positioning necessarily because people experience it and they know what it is. But if you position, you better make sure that you've got some of the other things, because you're going to create doubt from your positioning.Howard:People are going to, if they're interested, test your positioning, to see whether it's really true in their experience. And if it is, then you're great. Then you've used the positioning as a lens to get them to evaluate whether it's really true, or if it's BS. But of course, if it's not really true, you've accomplished the negative thing, which is you've lied to them and you've allowed them to spend their time and energy proving that you've lied to them. And now, of course, no doubt, unless your positioning is that you're a lying company. It's harmful rather than helpful.Stephanie:Yep. That makes sense. So this kind of takes it way back to earlier in the interview, but a lot of brands right now, I see focusing on here's my mission and the company's starting around the social impact or causes or things like that. And a question that I've talked with quite a few companies about is, how do you balance the mission behind the company, but then also the product value? I mean, you mentioned that, so one of the big themes was that customers would come to a company's website and not know if it could help them right away. And it feels that's a newer thing where every new DTC company right now has some kind of mission, and I do see some of them struggling with, do you put it on your front page, do you sell with your mission, do you sell with your product, how do you think about that? So what are your thoughts on having a good balance there while not making the customer journey get harder?Howard:I think it depends who you're selling to. I think it goes back to what I said about understanding your customer. I know especially with millennials and younger we definitely see something that we generally don't see with older customers, which is a willingness to actually make a choice and spend money for a social reason, because of some sort of charitable connection or something like that. Usually with older consumers, they like it, we'll do tests like this. We'll say, this brand gives 10% of the money to the American Red Cross and this brand doesn't how do you feel about the fact that this brand gives them money? And people say, "Oh, I'm all for it. I think it's wonderful that they do that." And we say, "Okay, great. This brand's product costs $12, and this other brand that doesn't give them money, their product costs $11. Which one are you going to buy?" And very often they're like, "I think the $11 one."Howard:It's like they like it, but they're not really willing to spend more for it. Whereas with younger consumers, we find increasingly they say, "Oh no, I spend another dollar for the company that gives the money to the cause that I believe in." So I think part of it's understanding who you're communicating to, but also I think part of it's understanding that building a relationship is about a number of different thing. And you don't start a relationship usually by focusing on your values. Usually the first thing, I mean, if I said, "Hey, there's this restaurant that gives 50% of all the money to Greenpeace. Do you want to have dinner there?"Stephanie:And that's it?Howard:Do you want to have dinner there? What's that?Stephanie:If it's good food.Howard:Well, right. And you might want to know what kind of food is it? Is it Chinese? It's not enough, right?Stephanie:Yes.Howard:You kind of want to start with, well, what's the value proposition for me? It's like what I said earlier, people care first and foremost about themselves. So I think there may be exceptions to this rule, but I think by and large, you have to do a good job first of being crystal clear about... It's like that pyramid I talked about, right? You can't jump to the top of the pyramid. You got to start by consistently meeting their needs and demonstrate that you understand them, and that at a very basic level, you can deliver what it is that they need. And then you can go to delighting and then you can focus on values. And so I think the answer is it's probably not your first message, and it's probably not the thing that's going to attract them to you, but what's going to happen is they're going to be attracted initially by what's in it for them.Howard:And then you can start to build a relationship and help them understand, most people didn't buy their first car in a Ben and Jerry's because they were protecting grassland in Vermont or whatever environmental stuff. They looked good. They heard all Chunky Monkey, that's good stuff, and let's try and diet. But then they might've fallen in love with the brand over time because they realized that not only is that bottom of the pyramid, not only are they consistently meeting my needs really well, but that they're also doing things that resonate with my values. And then that keeps me coming back again and again, it makes me more loyal and less likely to jump to the next brand of ice cream that has something that sounds appealing.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I completely agree. So get them in the door with good products, showcase your value, and then you could probably upsell in a way, once someone knows this is a good product, and now maybe I am willing to spend that extra dollar now that I've already had a good experience with them versus trying to do it the other way around.Howard:Yeah. Or be less likely to switch or be willing to try new products from that same brand, et cetera.Stephanie:Cool. So the last thing I want to of touch on was content strategy. I saw you working with Aéropostale and American Girl around getting these brands to start creating content, making it more organic, getting customers to create their own viral content. How do you think about brand should be approaching their content strategy right now?Howard:Well, in this day and age, everybody's a content creator. And as you look at the ages of your customers, I mean, I'm a content creator and I'm over 50, but as you go down in age, it becomes everybody, my kids are all creating all kinds of content all the time on obviously Tik ToK and Instagram and everywhere. And so I think first of all, it's easier than ever. And I think that one of the best ways to inspire people to create content is to give them a platform. Because what every content creator cares most about is what, likes, whatever it is on the given platform, right? Subscribers, followers, likes all this kind of stuff.Stephanie:There you go, it's wrong.Howard:So I mean, there are many strategies of course, to inspire people to create UGC around your brand. But I think that the number one strategy to say, okay, how can I give someone a sense that if you create something you're going to get my platform, obviously if you're a brand, you want to make sure you have a good sized platform, which means simply how many people you can reach, how many followers, et cetera you have. And then if you can help someone see that by creating content around your brand, that's going to get that content more exposure than if they just create content and post it on their own personal Instagram account or whatnot. Then that's valuable. And then of course...Stephanie:What's in it for me? That's the same thing that we've kind of talked about this whole time, the whole time.Howard:Understanding your customer, 100%. And in this case, the customer is they may be your customer in the traditional sense, they may be buying your product, but they may not even buy your product, but it's, again, it's like what I said about human behavior, you want to influence people to create content about you online. Great. You have to make sure you understand those people and understand what drives them. And there are going to be some different personas, right? To get my daughter to create content is takes one thing, to get someone who's already a YouTuber with 15 million followers, now it's something different. It's called probably going to an influencer platform and writing them a cheque. And that can be a very viable and smart strategy to do as well if you do it correctly and you pick the right influencers and you make sure that it's organically integrated into their content and not feeling like something they just slapped on, like an ad. But that can be a very powerful marketing tool as well.Howard:So that's what they want. My daughter, they don't need your platform because they have an even bigger platform probably depending on, I mean, if your platform is big enough, if you're Coca-Cola, maybe you even have a bigger platform than them. In which case maybe the influencer is willing to do it for less or for free. But anyway, but it all comes down to that. Anytime you want to motivate someone to do anything, you want to make sure you understand, what do they care about, what are they trying to accomplish? That's right.Stephanie:Cool. Well, let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have 30 seconds or less to answer.Howard:Okay.Stephanie:Are you ready?Howard:I'm ready.Stephanie:All right. First one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Howard:The elimination of a third party cookies.Stephanie:Okay. Expand a little bit more on, because I've had another guest say it doesn't matter and we have solved that and it's nothing to worry about.Howard:Okay. Well, I'll have to watch that episode because I would love that to be true. But essentially what's happening is between things that Apple is doing and things that Google are doing, Google is doing and frankly, things that may also happen from a legislation perspective, the ability to cookie somebody on one site and display ads to them on a different site is being no longer permitted or they're rolling out changes, which will mean that, if you're familiar with going on overstock and looking at a sofa, and then that's sofa is on every site you see around the whole internet, they're not going to be able to do that anymore. And it has the biggest impact on smaller or medium-sized ecommerce players, because that's a key strategy. So I think that's going to have a huge impact and require everyone to come up with different ways of attracting buyers. I think it's going to have a huge impact.Stephanie:Yep. When does that go into place? [inaudible]Howard:Well, some of it is already in place, certain browsers are already blocking third party cookies and other bots, but I think we're already in the middle of a transition.Stephanie:Okay. Got it. Onto a happier subject then, what's up next on your Netflix queue?Howard:My Netflix queue? Well, I think I want to watch this show about [inaudible], I think just started. Is that? I think it's Netflix or if not, it's one of the other services.Stephanie:On of them.Howard:All about how this [inaudible] thing got started and how so many people were hypnotized into being crazy.Stephanie:Interesting. Tell me how it is. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Howard:Women, and why they do what they do.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Howard:I've got two teenage daughters and a wife and man, I don't understand a single thing about why they do what they do.Stephanie:Oh, that's great. I mean, I don't even understand myself sometimes. So that's a valid answer. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Howard:Well, I guess I have my children, I've got five children. That could be [inaudible].Stephanie:Five. Wow. That's great. That's a good answer. What's the last ecommerce purchase you made that you maybe would not have made pre-COVID?Howard:Well, that I would not have made pre-COVID? I have been buying more gear for at home, stuff we're doing now because I used to do that all at our offices in Manhattan, where we had more of a studio. So I don't know the very last one, but a lot more lights and microphone stands and all this kind of a side monitor, an extra small minor like I've got over here to show me these slides, if I'm talking about things. So I've been buying a lot more Gadgets & Gizmos, did I say that? Gadgets & Gizmos.Stephanie:Whatever you say works for me.Howard:To make it easier to turn my office into a kind of a studio for all the content that we produce.Stephanie:Very cool. And the last one, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Howard:Well, I do have a podcast.Stephanie:Oh, well, what is it about?Howard:It's called Winning Digital Customers. And it is about how you most effectively win as a brand in an age where so many of your customers are living with digital at the center of their lifestyle. And the first guest on my podcast was a great friend and client of mine, Michelle McKenna, who's the SVP and chief information officer of the National Football.Stephanie:Oh, nice. I saw she wrote... Didn't sh write a foreword in your book?Howard:She did. She also wrote that. Well, that's kind of why we kicked off the podcast, which kind of connects to the book, same name. And she also was kind enough to to do that. And she's awesome and has driven a lot of innovation and transformation at the NFL, everything from the new way they do instant replays to stuff that supports player health and safety, to drones at Superbowls and sensors on players shoulder pads and helmets and the ball, so they can track with motion capture everything that happens in the game. So many cool things. And so she's always got great things to talk about and also a lot of stuff she can't talk about.Stephanie:We need to bring her on our IT visionaries podcast, which Hillary also produces. So we get her on there Hillary. Awesome.Howard:He is definitely an IT visionary.Stephanie:Yeah, we'll have to bring her on. Cool. Howard, thanks so much for joining the show. It was a pleasure chatting. Where can people find out more about you and your new book?Howard:Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me. If they want to learn about the book, there's a website for the book, which is winningdigitalcustomers.com, just like all one word. And in fact, if you go there, you can also download the first chapter of the book for free as a PDF if you want to just get started on it. Obviously it's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kindle, Apple books, all those types of places, and in bookstores, possibly near you if you go to bookstores. And as well, if you want to learn more about me, I'm on social media. I publish a lot on LinkedIn and other places. You can find me by my name, Howard Tiersky and my company is FROM, The Digital Transformation Agency and we are at from.digital.Stephanie:Amazing. Thank you so much, Howard.Howard:Thank you for having me, it's been a blast.

Innovation is risky business, especially if you’re a hardware startup. But it’s not just risky on the part of those inventing a new product. The early adopters of that product are putting a lot on the line, too. Which is why certain industries, like retail, have remained mostly the same for decades. Retailers only want to bring in something new if the operational cost of installing and using the innovation are minimal, and if it doesn’t require a massive overhaul of a retail space. This is exactly what Lindon Gao found out when he started exploring this space. Lindon has been on a mission to disrupt retail since his first application for a smart security tag was accepted by Y Combinator, and while that hardware didn’t take off, Lindon kept going until he landed on an idea that stuck. Today, Lindon is the CEO of Caper, a company bringing smart cart technology into the retail space with increasing success. In fact, Caper’s tech could be coming to a store near you, as the company recently agreed to partner with America’s largest grocery retailer, Kroger, to bring smart carts into chains all over the nation. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Lindon talks us through how Caper is finally bringing change into the world of grocery, and he explains how smart cart technology could have ripple effects on ecommerce, personalization, and the entire customer journey. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Where’s The Easy Button?: Implementing new technology isn’t easy in retail. The operational headaches of launching anything new often outweighs the benefit of most of the new tech being presented. Incorporating new tech as a retailer requires finding innovations that don’t need large system overhauls, already naturally fit into the customer’s store journey and provide an added benefit (i.e. more customer data, more opportunities to upsell, etc), to make the investment worth it. Do You Want a Receipt?: Smart receipts are one of the top ways to keep track of consumers after they make a purchase. Receipts offer a window into consumer behavior, and also provide a new area for personalization and follow-up conversations that keep customers engaged.It’s Not Either Or: When it comes to ecommerce and grocery, it is not an either/or question. Both in-store and online shopping will continue, and, in fact, the move toward ecommerce will only push the in-store experience to be even more efficient and streamlined.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder and CEO at Mission.org. Today, on the show, we're chatting with Lindon Gao, the CEO at CAPER. Lindon, welcome to the show.Lindon:Thanks for having me, Stephanie.Stephanie:Yeah. I'm really excited to have you on. So, tell me a bit about Caper. I was doing a little bit of background digging. And maybe, actually, it'd be great to start with your background first. I saw that you were involved with Y Combinator. So, maybe starting off there, and then we'll get to Caper.Lindon:Sure. I joined Y Combinator shortly after I left investment banking. So, prior to YC, I was an investment banker in Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, have had quite a number of corporate lives, and didn't really feel like I belonged in finance as much as I belong in startups. I started my first startup when I was 14, my second one when I was 19. So, I've always had a lot of passion for the startup industry. And when I realized that there was a big opportunity to potentially pursue in physical retail, I decided to quit my job to start Caper. And we were lucky enough that we got into YC. And our first application, I remember at the time, we-Stephanie:That's lucky.Lindon:Yeah. And we built... At the time, we were actually building a different product. We built a smart security tag. You know those that beeps at the door if you try to steel in Zara? We made it such that it will unlock upon payment. So, just imagine, on Black Friday, you could walk into a store. You could take out your phone, tap on that security tag, pay for it, and the security pack will unlock, and then you can leave the store.Stephanie:Smart.Lindon:Yeah, so...Stephanie:What happened with that? I still need that?Lindon:I could get into that a little bit actually. So, we built a prototype for the smart security tag. And then, onsite during the YC interview... YC interviews are ten minutes. So basically, within 10 minutes, you have to knock out everything. And they will be firing questions at you. They will be cutting you off during the interview. I've thought about something that was very interesting. Since we only had 10 minutes, I wanted to convey industry urgency, our market. So, I printed these t-shirts where it says, "Did you know that customers will leave the store if they have to wait in line for more than five minutes?" 33% of customers will leave.Lindon:So, I printed it out on a t-shirt. And I walked in. And all of a sudden, the interviewer is... At the time, it was... I remember it was Geoff, Geoff Ralston, who is the president of YC. He looked at it and it was, "Oh. Interesting t-shirt." And we started talking. And I remember, at the time, our prototype was working 50% of the times. So, when we did the demo, the prototype... We were hoping that it will unlock. So, we're praying, praying, praying. And it did. So, if it didn't-Stephanie:Whew.Lindon:Yeah. So, if it didn't unlock, I think I would probably go back to finance and be an investment banker by now, but luckily it did. So, we got to YC. We build the security tag out. We signed on a couple of really, really large apparel customers. And we launched with Rebecca Minkoff in Soho. But we realized that the tech was really difficult to scale, because you need to apply the technology onto every single garment. That means that it was a gigantic operational overhaul. Every week, the store stock needs to maintain it somehow to make sure that all the new inventory that comes in are tagged, and are synced, with the specific unique identifier for each garment. And that just proved to be too much.Lindon:And so, we built it for about a year and a half before we realized that we were just being stubborn, and it was too difficult to scale to market. And that's when we decided to pivot.Stephanie:Very cool. So, what happened next after that? Is that when you... Had you already been thinking about a smart checkout grocery option. Or did you all have to huddle and start brainstorming to be like, "What's next? Where are we going to go now?"Lindon:It was very difficult at the time, because we were not a typical YC company, in that we are a small portion of the hardware companies in YC. And hardware companies are not very popular. So, when we-Stephanie:They're expensive.Lindon:Exactly. It's very capital intensive. Investors don't like to invest in it. So, after we did our demo day, we didn't raise so much money. We raised like two, three hundred K, in total. Typically, YC companies, they come out, they sign a million dollar term sheet on the demo day. And there I was, after demo day, some of my buddies were signing term sheets left and right. I was just like, "Hey. You guys want to chat?" And they were like, "Ah. You guys go hardware, not really."Lindon:So, throughout the whole time, it was very difficult. So, when we built it, built a security tag for about a year and a half, none of us were getting paid. At the time, it was four co-founders and two early employees. We lived and worked out of a house in College Point in New York. It's right by the LaGuardia Airport. And yeah, all we did was just we woke up. We worked. We'd eat together, and work, and we'd go to sleep.Stephanie:I heard you got in trouble for buying orange juice [crosstalk].Lindon:Where did you hear about that? Yes, I did.Stephanie:I just did a little creeping on the internet.Lindon:It was a very funny story. My co-founders are extremely frugal because we really didn't have too much money. We were bringing $7,000 per month. And we'd buy groceries together. I'll walk into a grocery store... It was a habit. I usually drink orange juice. And I dropped it in. My co-founder's like, "Do you really need to drink this? This is like six bucks." I'm like, "All right. Maybe you're right. I don't."Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Lindon:So, it was pretty tough. But it was also very interesting in that the passion really bonded us together. And that's why our team is extremely cohesive, even today. We barely have any attrition in the company. And our team is like a family. So... yeah. So, we built a security tag for a year and a half. And at the time, when we decided to pivot, we had probably less than probably 100K or something left in the bank. So, we really didn't have too much money, and we couldn't do too much with that amount of capital, especially in a hardware.Lindon:So, we kind of huddled together and we were thinking about what sorts of things should we pursue next. Or should we just kind of close up, just go home, and start applying for other jobs? And we decided that it was the retail, the grocery, just general physical retail industry has been extremely under innovated over the past decades. If you were to walk into a grocery store after world war two versus today, it will essentially be this... It's basically the same.Lindon:And we just couldn't understand retailers are not innovating. So, me and my co-founder, Ahmed, took a slightly more drastic approach in that we're saying, "Hey. You know what? Before we decide on building anything, let's go out to the market, and let's talk to grocery store owners." But before we went to the market, we were brainstorming. What are some of the things that we could do with our capability? So, we thought maybe... If we retrofit the entire store with sensors and cameras, maybe we can enable a check out free experience [inaudible] retail stores.Lindon:So, we had this thesis in mind. And ironically, probably six months later, Amazon go kind of launch with the same idea. But we took a very diff-Stephanie:That's not an app. What year was this? And where was Amazon at then? Who solved it first?Lindon:Yeah. So, we thought of... Amazon probably thought of it first because they built it. But we thought about it as well. But we kind of took our idea. But we approached these stores and we just asked questions. So, I remember, it was during the winter of 2016. It was very, very cold. Every day I would wake up. Me and Ahmed would wake up at 7:00. We'd go down to the train station, and we'd just take it to any stop. And then, after we'd get off, we would just walk into any grocery stores that we see on Google Map. And it's a very different place.Lindon:You go in, and a grocery store would be like, "Well, what the hell are you guys doing? If you're not buying anything, just get out." So, we went through a lot of that. But there were grocery store owners and managers who were willing to talk. So, we just asked them, "Hey. What are some of your top pain points? And what are some things that we can do to help you innovate your store?" And interestingly, we saw a huge amount of sentiment from the grocers and retailers who are telling us that they do want to innovate. But their concern is that a lot of innovations requires a lot of infrastructure, operational maintenance, and overhaul. And that makes it very, very difficult.Lindon:So interestingly, when we presented our "Amazon go" idea to these store owners, most of them freaked out. They were saying, "Hey. Why are you trying to renovate my store? How much does this infrastructure cost?" I'll say, "A couple hundred K." And they would say, "Look dude, even if you give it to me for free, I wouldn't want it." So, I was shocked.Stephanie:[crosstalk]Lindon:Why? Yeah. And they were like, "Look. It took me six months to install wifi and amplifiers in my store, because I need to rewire my ceiling and install amplifiers in the gigantic store to make sure everything is in line. Do you think you could come into my store to renovate my entire store, and install thousands of cameras? And do you actually think that could work?" So, we're saying... So, we're like, "Okay. You're right." And the store owner's said, "If you want to make anything work in this industry, you have to make sure that it is something that you bring it to our store and it just works. It shouldn't require infrastructure overhaul. It shouldn't require operational overhaul."Lindon:So, we really put that to note. So, we kind of went back to the drawing board, and we thought about, "How can we build a technology that just works?" And we kind of stumbled upon this idea that, if we compact computer vision and sensory fusion directly into a shopping cart, which is the most common tool in physical retail, we could enable the same type of experience at much lower maintenance. That really also tied back to our first idea of why we failed the smart security tag idea, was it would require a lot of operational maintenance.Lindon:And we thought that the smart cart could really overcome a lot of these barriers. So, we built the technology. Actually, before we built it, we just did a 3D rendering of the cart. We took it to the store owners. And immediately, within two months, we signed over probably 30 contracts. So, that was when we saw a huge pick [crosstalk].Stephanie:With the cart that didn't really work? The cart was...Lindon:A picture. It was not even a cart that didn't work. It was picture rendering of what it looks like, and I just described what it would do. And the store owners were very, very interested to sign on. So, that was how we got started.Stephanie:Okay. Cool. So, you got 30 new contracts. I'm guessing you had to go out and raise some more money though. Because, with only a couple $100,000 in the bank, even with 30 contracts, I'm assuming you wouldn't have been paid... at least net 90, probably, or more. What did you guys have to do to get that first version of the cart made?Lindon:Yeah. So, very interestingly, and very luckily, my co-founder, hardware co-founders father, actually owns a manufacturing facility in China. So, we have a very-Stephanie:Lucky, lucky.Lindon:Yes. So, we had a very unique hardware advantage in that we were able to prototype, and built our first versions of the shopping carts directly at his factory. And that was also one thing that, I would say, is our unique competitive advantage, in that we're able to iterate all hardwares on a monthly basis. Typically, it takes six months to iterate, on a typical hardware. It takes us a month. And that was the reason why we're able to accelerate our product development cycle so quickly.Stephanie:What were some of the early features in the cart that you either got rid of... What does it look like now versus when you first created it.Lindon:When we first created it, it was a lot of duct tape, a lot of weird components in there. I think I remember, when we built our first version, we were trying to demo this to a very large European client. And we shipped it over to France. And the entire cart broke. And I spent two days in a hotel just piecing things together before my client meetings. I actually used glue in there too.Stephanie:Oh my gosh. And it wasn't computer driven at that point, right? Or did you already have AI in it, or not yet?Lindon:Not yet, at the time, because our idea was that AI was going to take a little more time. So, while we're building the R and D branch of our government, we were going to go to market first with the barcode scanning version. And that was a very explicit strategy that we had, because we didn't want to be a heavily research dependent or research oriented company. We wanted to go to market, to understand the market as we go.Lindon:So, we built the shopping cart with a scanner, with a screen. And it also has a low cell which measures the weight of what's inside the basket. And I remember, when we first launched a very, very small trial inside one of the stores in Long Island city called Ruth Seller. We saw users try to use it. The scanner was very... It was a very small scanner that pointed at the side. And no one knew how to register the item into the cart. So, we did a lot of different changes to our scanner model, changes to the screen, and the low cell. And also, low cell was very, very difficult. Because it's not common knowledge that the scale is inside your grocer...Lindon:Your typical grocery stores are regulated by the government. It's regulated by the consumer affairs, because if your apples are a dollar per pound, and your scale is off, and it's wrong, then you're cheating the consumer. So, it's protected by the consumer affairs. And to be able to pass that certification requires us to send them our cart. And they will put it in a furnace, put it in a freezer, put in automatic weight into our cart and out of our cart 400,000 times. And we need to be reading accurate to 0.005 pounds. So, there's a lot of additional engineering in a hardware infrastructure that kind of went in there just to get the first versions of the carts right.Stephanie:Wow. That's intense. So, early days, it sounds like the cart was... It wad kind of like having a checkout conveyor belt on the cart. You could scan it. You could weigh things. And you could check out. And that was the gist of it.Lindon:Pretty much.Stephanie:What does that look like today?Lindon:So today, it's completely computer vision powered. We could directly drop items into the cart. And we're launching these into retailer stores very, very soon. And it's one of the paths where we took, where we thought about, "How do we make computer vision scalable?" Because inside a typical grocery store, you have at least 50 to 100,000 unique items. And for each one of these items, we need images of what the item looks like from different angles.Lindon:So, in a way, when we started building the scan version of the cart, it really paved the way for the scan less version. Because, as customers are using it, they're collecting images for us. You scan a Coca Cola. You put it inside the cart. Now, we know this is a Coca Cola. And then, using our cameras, we're able to collect over 120 images for us to train. So now, we have over 100s of millions of images in our data bank. And now, we're able to directly enable the scan less version of the cart.Stephanie:That's smart. That's like Tesla, how it's always kind of learning as it goes, learning from other cars. You're learning from every time someone's putting something in the shop.Lindon:Exactly. Exactly.Stephanie:That's great. And then, I also read that it does some product recommendations. Tell me a bit about that.Lindon:Yeah. So, you actually tapped into a really, really interesting space. Product recommendation is a big part of our system. Because when we walk into a store, and you shop for groceries, typically you will probably spend 30/40 minutes in there. And you probably spend five minutes at the checkout, but 35 minutes in your journey as you browse through the store. And when we were launching the carts and working with grocers, we realized that the bigger piece of the opportunity in innovating retail is actually not automating checkout.Lindon:That's a piece of the experience that we can make very seamless. But it's not the whole picture. The whole picture is, how can we help customer shop through the store during that 35 minutes, and provide them a very digitized and personalized experience. So, the personalized recommendations is a part of that which drives the digitization of the store, where if a customer puts in the milk, for example, we could give them recommendations for cookies, Oreos, cereals, and so forth.Lindon:And, as we go on, we're going to start implementing, for example, things like recipe recommendations. "Hey. I notice you have pasta and you have meatballs in your basket. Would you like to have some Parmesan cheese to go with it because we notice that you might building a recipe for meatball pasta?" Or "We notice that you have gluten free items inside your basket. Would you want us to recommend additional gluten free items inside your basket?" And that really creates another layer of digital platform, on top of physical retail, that really never existed before. Right? You have ecommerce, which is a gigantic digital platform. But also, now, in the physical stores, you have a digital platform where you could browse through the stores and interact with items around you through Caper.Lindon:We could eventually help you trace the roots of where your products are coming from. We could also help you count calories of what you've been purchasing. So, there's a lot of different ways to play in this market right now. And that's the most exciting part.Stephanie:Yeah. It also seems like there's an opportunity to kind of see the location of the shopper, and showcase coupons or things like that, based off the aisle that they're at. Because that's always something I think about is... Getting a random coupon in the mail, you're like, "Well, I'm not going to that store. And now, I forgot about it,' versus if I'm there, and I'm on that aisle, and it's like, "Oh. You can have a dollar off an egg." Okay. I'll get those eggs then, much easier by-Lindon:Exactly.Stephanie:... transaction than trying to bring something in store.Lindon:Exactly. Exactly. And through that... So now, we have some basic recommendations plus nearby deals. And we've been able to see average basket size pick up in some of the... I can't talk about the larger stores, because we're [inaudible]. But the smaller stores, we've seen more than 18% average basket size increase, on a very consistent basis.Lindon:Because if we're able to get the customers to buy a couple more things, that actually drastically helps the retailers top line as well.Stephanie:Yeah. So, tell me a little bit about, what does the landscape in general look like for autonomous check? I mean, now we're talking about location based stuff, personalized stuff. How do you view it interacting with ecommerce? What does the omni channel experience look like over the next couple years? Or what are you guys planning for?Lindon:Sure. So, I could start by just talking about the autonomous check out market. And maybe we can probably dig a little more into the ecommerce part. So, here is the general landscape. Basically, you have the Amazon go formats, which are... The start ups, little companies, are building cameras on the ceilings to directly enable all cashier less checkouts. So, this means that you will have to install hundreds of cameras on your ceiling, on top of building a process, and installing GPUs inside the store to make sure that we're able to process all these images and make sense of it.Lindon:The cameras will be used for two purpose. The first purpose is object tracking, which is you track how people are moving around the store. Because you need to apply that item to that particular person so we can't lose track. The second part is the cameras are also being used for pinpointing where items are inside a store. So typically, what a lot of... We've seen companies where, basically, they use cameras to label where items are inside the store. So, they don't directly do recognition of that particular item, but they label based on where it is inside the store.Lindon:And then, there is the other form factor, which is, instead of using the cameras to label where items are in the store, they use smart sensors, basically weight sensors inside the store, where if you pick something up, the weight sensor would detect it and it will know, "Okay. Coca Cola weighs 100 grams." So, you just picked it up. You picked that one bottle of Coca Cola. And that's what Amazon does. Amazon does a lot in Amazon Go. And then, there's the other form factor, which is a lot more similar to, basically, what Caper does right now, which is we compact everything into a device like a shopping cart, or shopping basket. And customers will pick it up and directly use it.Lindon:All the compute is done locally inside within this boundary. And it's also very, very interesting. I think, probably three months ago, Amazon Dash Cart came out, which is the smart cart iteration of the Amazon Go store, which I thought... And I thought it was very, very encouraging for the industry, because Amazon is known for their innovation in the physical retail through Amazon Go. And Amazon Go has been scaling to have 20 stores or so. And all of a sudden, they came out with Amazon Dash Cart. Because everyone thought Amazon Go was going into Whole Foods, was going to go into Amazon Fresh, but it didn't. And that was precisely the moment when we were happy to find out our thesis has been right all along.Lindon:Because we went out there to talk to the grocery store owners. And they told us that it would be operationally intensive to maintain. So, that's kind of the landscape. And then, beyond the Amazon Gos and the Capers, you have additional self scanning apps, which Walmart had implemented before in their scan and go program. That really didn't really take off, so they canceled it and kept it to a smaller membership, like Sam's Club, I think. But that's kind of the overall field. When you're really thinking about which type of form factor works, again, kind of going back to my earlier point, the most important factor is return on investment for retailers.Lindon:If they're investing in the technology, what is the cost of the technology? And what is the cost of maintenance for the technology? For in our security tag example, the cost of the technology is low. Each tag costs like eight cents. It's not worth too much. But the cost of maintaining the technology is big because I need to get the store staff to consistently apply it. One of the concerns on the maintenance of the technology for the Amazon Go form factor, is that it requires the stores to consistently update where all the items are inside a store. So, you definitely need someone else in the background to monitor and make sure your inventory is 100% accurate. Otherwise, you're going to start catching the wrong items.Lindon:With Caper, on the other hand, with our thesis, is that you could do whatever you want inside a store. It's none of our problem. All we care about is what you put inside the basket.Stephanie:Yep. One thing I'm thinking out too is, how do you continue the conversation with people who use Caper shopping carts? I mean, to me, I think of it as, if you at least have an app, you kind of can continue the conversation with that customer once they leave. When they come back in the store, it's like, "Oh hi, welcome back. Here's what you got last time." I'm even thinking about Whole Foods and Amazon check out on Amazon right now.Stephanie:How do you guys think about keeping track of consumers in a way that's helpful and personalized when they get back in the store?Lindon:Yeah. So, that's an awesome, awesome question. And this is something that we've been thinking about a lot, which is, how do we tap into consumers? Right now, one of our first ways to do this is to interact with them through the receipt that we sent them. So, we personalize the receipts. We can send them recommendations on the receipt. And when you come back, we give them unique identifiers that they could log in and we could recognize them. On top of that, we also integrate with retailers loyalty program, so that we're able to track and we're able to understand the shopper's purchase history.Lindon:So, that's kind of one part of it. The second part, which is more of a long term vision is, as we increase penetration in the market, we want to come out with a Caper app, where you could track... Shopping lists is one of the biggest pain points that we have heard from our shoppers. They want to be able to build shopping lists, and come into a store, and upload it inside in our cart. And then, we'll tell them where everything is inside the store. So, that's one piece that we're going to build in. And two is, we really want to build something that's a little more what we will call the Caper lifestyle.Lindon:What the Caper lifestyle is, is that, your diets and what you eat are guided by AI. So, if you have a particular fitness goal, when you go into a grocery store, we give you recommendations of recipes of items that are going to help you get there. And that's a much, much more healthier, and more informed, and AI driven lifestyle that you could pick up. And... Yeah. That's our very exciting future vision, but we're not quite there yet.Stephanie:I mean, that's really cool. That's just... I mean, it's like the trends right now you see around media blending with content and tech. And that kind of seems like where you guys are headed is starting here, when it comes to the tech piece, and then start introducing the media and functionality, community building, and encouraging healthy behaviors based off what someone wants to do. That's awesome.Lindon:Completely. Completely, because we interface with the customers, at the right place, at the right time, right, as they're inside, in their store, as their deciding what to buy. So, we have a lot of opportunities to provide our recommendations to the customers. And hopefully, that can enrich their shopping experience.Stephanie:Yep. I also like that you guys have the ability to track based on the receipts. And it just kind of opens up a whole discussion around making things that maybe were normally not useful, like a receipt where it's like, "Well, I'm not going to return any of these groceries. Just throw it away." Putting something on there that makes you want to keep something. And it's kind of like finding-Lindon:Completely.Stephanie:... arbitrage opportunity that maybe many are overlooking.Lindon:Yeah. One of our mottoes is, "Making the mundane into something magical". So, that includes making the shopping cart into something that's magical, so that when you put items in there, we just magically recognize it, into something like what we just talked about on the receipt side. It's not... traditionally, not very interesting. But we want to start enriching every part of your shopping experience that way.Stephanie:Yeah. That's cool. So, you're talking about increasing market penetration. And I saw that you guys signed a big deal with Kroger. So, I want to hear... First off, congrats. That's amazing. I want to hear a little bit-Lindon:Thank you.Stephanie:... about that. How did you strike up that partnership? And what does that look out on a national roll out?Lindon:Yeah. So, it's a very, very exciting deal because it is definitely a step towards the right direction in terms of accelerating the adoption of digitized stores. And Kroger's came to us initially. We had reached out them. But I would say a good portion of our clients are most effective when they reach out to us. And that was a part of... the early part of the process as to how we got to know Kroger, or how we got started on the project.Lindon:They've been looking into this phase and thinking about what could potentially make sense. And we decided to start working together, very fortunately. And throughout the process, there were definitely a lot of learnings. But fortunately, Kroger wasn't our first client, so we had gotten a lot of the initial warp up out of the way. And so, we were able to deploy in their stores very, very quickly. And I think one piece that was quite interesting was that, when Dash Cart came out from Amazon, it really accelerated the Kroger's process. Because there they were, Amazon, making additional innovations inside physical stores, and now they're actually... Before, people were saying Amazon Go wasn't going to scale to a larger store.Lindon:And Amazon proved people wrong by developing the smart cart. And that was a validation of what we have built. And that accelerated the process as well.Stephanie:What kind of lessons did you learn, or would you tell someone else, when you had that first partner versus moving to something like a Kroger?Lindon:It's definitely night and day. We started first by working with a local grocer, a smaller grocer called Food Cellar. The store owner's extremely friendly, very open minded, wanted to try new technologies. So, we launched with him first. But as we started working with him, we realized that grocery is a extremely complicated market. It's not like a typical convenience store where everything is just bar coded and stuff. Inside grocery stores, you have promotional deals. Buy one, get one free. Buy one, get one 50% off.Lindon:The promotional part of the pricing logic was very difficult. And also integration into the store's system was also very difficult, because we need to connect to their point of sale system to make sure that we know the latest pricing of what costs what. And we also need to push back that information to their inventory systems to make sure that their overall records are well maintained. So, that part also took a little bit of time. But I think most importantly is really just figuring out the overall flowing process. In grocery stores, you have... They sell produce. Produce are weighted. So, how do we facilitate that to make sure that it's very easy for customers to understand that this is the way that they add produce?Lindon:On top of that, there is also buffets, coffee beans, beans, different types of... They also have a bakery with coffee. And they also have a pizza little section in the store. So, really understanding every single part of that was very, very essential. So, we really learned... We did a lot of learnings at the local grocery store level. And we also ramped up to Kroger. And before we launched Kroger, we actually launched Sobeys, which was one of the largest super market chains in Canada. And by that, we've realized the complexity of a larger enterprise organization, how their system is structured, how their processes work.Lindon:And then, all through all that learnings, then we started working with Kroger. And with Kroger, we're still learning along the way. Physical retail grocery is a complicated space, but we have really figured out a lot more things. And now, we're able to move a lot more faster.Stephanie:Yeah. That's very cool. It also seems like there's going to be a tipping point where you train the machines, and then just so much data. But then, you don't really have to do that anymore because there's only so many products. There's only so many bottles of ketchup.Lindon:Right.Stephanie:Where it's like, "Okay. I know what that is now." As you start rolling out into future stores, it seems like you'll get over a hurtle, then it's kind of like on to the next thing because you've tackled that and they're good.Lindon:Yeah. Completely. Because the initial wrap up is always the toughest. But once you kind of get through a certain critical point, then you realize that, "Okay. We have all the images that we need. We have the integration system, the infrastructure we need. We have overcome a lot of the hardware issues," which I didn't mention. The hardware issues are also another beast. And so, I think, from our first store, which it was probably launched about a little over... probably over two years, until now, we just learned a ton along the way.Lindon:So, we really... A demo environment... Coming out of a demo environment/a pilot environment into actually a production environment where customers are using it on a consistent basis, where thousands of transactions go through our system on a daily basis, it's different scale. It's a different beast that we have to manage.Stephanie:Stephanie:And did Y Combinator come back to you now that things are going pretty well? Or did they ask to invest now?Lindon:Well, Y Combinator has always been a co-investor along the way.Stephanie:Oh happy, I thought they didn't... Oh, Y Combinator. I'm thinking about the investors at Demo Day.Lindon:Oh. The investors at Demo Day, yes. But we're a little too big for their tech size now. So...Stephanie:Yeah.Lindon:Definitely, when we started building and started fund raising, it was a different product. And it was a different market dynamic too. Back then, it was like 2016/2017, there were... Cashier less check out wasn't even a concept. It was like back in 2008 when self driving wasn't even a thing, and you were trying to build self driving. People were like, "You're crazy." Cashier less check out for retail is kind of very similar to that.Lindon:But I think a lot of the recent tailwinds in the industry... It really started first with Amazon Go. And then, Amazon acquired Whole Foods. So, it really spurred up Amazon's intention to tap into the physical retail market. So, it got a lot of people nervous. And then, it kind of evolved into... Recently, you have COVID, which accelerated the need for a more automated checkout process, because cashiers are very prone to COVID risk. You see more than 20% of cashiers were diagnosed with... tested positive with COVID at some point in their lives. And that makes it a very difficult decision for both the retailers, and the shoppers, and the cashiers. Because you have cashiers who are consistently exposed to thousands of people on a daily basis.Lindon:Shoppers want to make sure that they're safe. And retailers want to make sure that their shoppers are safe, and their employees are safe as well. And that kind of accelerated the interest in the market.Stephanie:Yeah. Do you see curbside pickup and people shopping for you as a threat to the business model?Lindon:Yeah. This is very interesting. So, this kind of comes back to... draws a full circle on the ecommerce portion now. I do think that grocery and general retail is going to continue to be more ecommerce. That's one part that I definitely recognize, and definitely am aware. And ecommerce is very interesting in that, during COVID, physical stores are actually doing substantially better. Because we systematically shifted the demand from food, basically from restaurants, into cooking at home for yourself.Lindon:So grocery, general retail, kind of enjoy a lot of that market expansion. And then, on top of that, then ecommerce came in and chipped a little bit of the market away from them. But then, when you actually think about the overall landscape of retail, Instacart is the largest ecommerce player. 100% of their transactions are [inaudible] physical stores. So, it doesn't reduce the traffic inside stores. If anything, it really increased the need to be efficient inside a store. And that's where Capers come in as well. We can help facilitate delivery shoppers to make them more efficient by telling them where all the items are inside the store, and get cashier check out free so that they can walk out of the store.Lindon:So, curbside pickup also, also the same. You need someone inside a store to go walk around the shelves to pick up everything. So, where I see the future of retail really converging is that you are going to see a lot more retailers. Not only are they going to optimize their stores for the shoppers, but they're also going to optimize the stores to make sure that it also becomes the local fulfillment center. Because these are the distribution modes that are closest to your house. These stores are just a mile away from your house. So, I don't see in store activity going down at all. In fact, I see in store activities... It's going to continue to pick up.Lindon:And that also increases the need for technologies like us to make in store experience more pleasant so that, when people come back to the store, they enjoy and love that experience as they interact with food around them, but also make it extremely efficient and expedite it. So, I'm very bullish on the overall check out free industry.Stephanie:Yeah. I see there being opportunity as well, expanding into the Home Depots of the world, and all the stores where it's like, "Ugh. This aisle is a little too much for me. I just need to know where to go to get what I want, and then just walk out and not wait in a crazy line." So, it seems like there's a lot of other industries that would probably be waiting for this...Lindon:Completely.Stephanie:... after you guys were fully secured.Lindon:Completely. We could expand to all retail formats. So, we're very excited to explore that.Stephanie:Cool. All right. Well, this has been such a fun interview. I probably could keep going, but I'm going to shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Sales Force Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question, and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Lindon:Okay. Sure.Stephanie:All right. What's one thing from 2020 that you hope sticks around in 2021?Lindon:That's a really tough one.Stephanie:It can't be like, "Oh. I hope people continue to shop more in person and not go to restaurants." It can't be something that benefits your business.Lindon:Okay. I hope that my team momentum keeps up, because 2020, ironically, is one of the years where my team has really gone together, despite COVID, and really accelerated our development. So, that's one thing that... That was good. And it really proved that work from home... Actually yeah, work from home is here to stay.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. People will not want to go back five days a week anymore.Lindon:Yeah.Stephanie:What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Lindon:Cost of delivery. If cost of delivery goes down, ecommerce would also take off.Stephanie:Yep. If you had a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be?Lindon:The cockroach way. I thought about that. I was going to write a book about it.Stephanie:About what?Lindon:How do you survive building a startup, earning, I don't know, $2000 a month. It was one of those things. Because we burned $7000 per month for two and a half years. So, not buying orange juice and all that stuff, that was real, and definitely want to talk about that. So, who would I want to invite? An entrepreneur that was very referable, very, very cheap.Stephanie:Your co-founder?Lindon:Yes. Yes. He will be a great one. He's still referable today, even though our team [crosstalk]. Yeah, at least... Well, I mean, I'm paying for it myself now. It's not on the company. So, he can't stop me.Stephanie:There you go. What's up next on your Netflix queue?Lindon:I watch a lot of stand ups, Kevin Hart.Stephanie:Yep.Lindon:Yeah, it's awesome. After a long work day, you can sit down and just watch some Kevin Hart.Stephanie:Yep.Lindon:It's great.Stephanie:Right. And I think you'll have a good answer for this last question. What one thing do you not understand that you wish you did?Lindon:The complications of scaling a team. When we scale from sea drown to the series A, to beyond, my role has really evolved from a independent contributor that's on the route to execution, to middle manager, which is managing the execution level people, to managing middle managers, to managing managers of middle managers. And along this way, I really learned a lot about management and growing as a CEO. So, that was something that I wish I had known a little earlier, so that I'm able to roll my team along more effectively.Stephanie:Good one. All right, Lindon. Well, thanks so much for joining the show. It was a pleasure to have you on. Where can people find out more about you and Caper?Lindon:You can find me on LinkedIn. And you can also find out about Caper on Caper's website, caper.ia.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much.

When people scroll through Instagram these days, they can’t avoid the ads and the influencers pushing products. And that’s not a bad thing. In fact, more and more often, ecommerce is taking place in channels other than on a brand’s website, which is why so many companies are looking for ways to optimize how they execute commerce at the edge -- this means meeting customers where they are. Paloma has one way to do that, by turning messenger platforms into sales channels, which creates a more personalized shopping experience for customers, and a .5-to-10x higher conversion rate for brands.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I was joined by Kelsey Hunter, the Co-Founder and CEO of Paloma, to give us the inside scoop on why brands should be investing in conversational commerce. In the last year, Paloma has helped partners convert $9 million in sales, and she explains how that happened by simply diverting ad traffic away from a website and into a chat instead. Plus, she discusses the future of conversational commerce and how the low barrier to entry into the ecommerce industry is forcing everyone to adjust quicker than ever before. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Website Woes: Moving forward, a brand’s website will become more of a secondary piece of collateral when it comes to driving conversions. It will still be critical to have a fast, highly-efficient website experience, but more of the interactions and conversion efforts will be focused on other channels where customers are spending more time.Get To The Party: The worst thing a brand could be doing right now is not experimenting with and setting up processes in Facebook Messenger and other messaging apps. Customer service and the customer experience are two of the leading drivers of conversions, and ignoring a channel that allows you to provide a proactive and personalized experience is a huge wasted opportunity.Far Out Future: The future of commerce is being written right now with shops that are opening with simple Instagram product posts and telling customers interested to go to a PayPal link. More new brands are foregoing the traditional channels and website launches, so the barrier to entry is much lower. As more competition enters the market in this way, traditional brands will have to keep up with their own easy, personalized commerce options.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postals, co-founder and CEO at mission.org. Today we have Kelsey Hunter joining us. The founder and CEO of Paloma. Kelsey, welcome to the show.Kelsey:Thank you, Stephanie. It's so good to be here.Stephanie:We're excited to have you on. I was just thinking I'm like, "How do I know I'm actually talking to Kelsey and not a chatbot?" She's put up a virtual screen and it might not even be Kelsey back there. I'm not sure.Kelsey:I have a history of pretending to be a bot, so.Stephanie:I actually, I read that. I read that you spent a little bit six weeks pretending to be a chatbot to learn how they worked.Kelsey:True.Stephanie:That's fun jumping off point. Tell me a bit about being a chatbot. What's that life like?Kelsey:It is wild. Let's see, I was working at a startup in New York that we offered mobile commerce solution for brands and publishers. So I was really deep in the mobile commerce space when the messenger API opened up. And as we're getting side projects, of course then, decided that messenger would be a good place to try to test things out.Kelsey:And before even building anything, I pretended to be a bot just to see how it would work. That's what sparked all of this. It was like, "Oh wait, if you can talk to people directly, people will talk to you about themselves." I'm asking people questions, they're telling me way too much information. That was really the spark for me. Then I said, "Oh, why are we making assumptions online? We can just ask people and they will very happily tell you things to help figure out what they should buy and why."Stephanie:That's cool. So you were doing this at another company. And then you're like, this is the business in and of itself. And that's how you went to create Paloma?Kelsey:Yeah. It was a totally side project outside of the company that I was working with. But all of the pieces tied together for me. That company is called Button, and when I left Button, I did a little bit of other experimentation in the channel. Actually, worked with a team to build a open-source software, to help people call Congress on Facebook Messenger, which was one of the first software tools that was like a MailChimp for the space, which is really cool. But brought it all the way back around to commerce and launched Paloma at the end of 2017.Stephanie:Cool. So tell me a bit more about Paloma. What is it? What does it do?Kelsey:Paloma helps brands turn Facebook Messenger into a sales channel. Essentially, we work with a lot of D2C and ecom brands across every product, category, audience, price point, and we help them drive traffic into messenger instead of their website where their customers get a more personalized shopping experience, that's powered by our software. So what that might look like for a furniture brand would be, they're running Instagram and Facebook ads and they can set them to open up a Messenger conversation instead of opening up a website landing page.Kelsey:And once in Messenger, our conversation, we'll ask them questions like what room do you want to design? What are the colors in that room? Do you have cats, dogs? Any other kind of style preferences. And then we'll dynamically route the customer to the right products based off of what they've shared. By helping the customer make the purchase decision, we're effectively seeing anywhere from two to 10X increases in conversion rates. And that's a little bit of very cap on, on how that works.Stephanie:That's awesome. I feel like just thinking about, I follow all these influencers on Instagram and they're always selling stuff, which normally I'm like, I want a lot of this. But if you respond to them, they definitely can't keep up. If you're like, does that size, would it fit me? Is that Off-White? Is that Real-White? It seems like there's a lot of opportunity everywhere to have a chatbot set up that personalizes the experience and also helps it scale.Kelsey:Exactly. And what you just described is one of the reasons that we see so much opportunity in that space. And the reason why customers messaged in the first place is because when it comes to online shopping people don't shop on websites. That's just where they transact now. But they're making decisions by what you're talking about, watching influencers, DMing folks, talking to friends, watching YouTube videos, TikToks.Kelsey:So you're basically piecing together all these different parties to figure out, should I buy this? What's the right thing for me? Whereas if you walk into a storefront, for example, you can get all of that figured out in a matter of minutes. You can talk to an associate, they're going to ask questions. Everything that you just described can happen there. There's nowhere like that online. And that's where messaging channels open up that opportunity for the brand to be part of that purchase decision process. So instead of leaving it up to all the third parties, the brand can do it themselves and they can scale it through these kinds of automated conversations.Stephanie:Very cool. And how do you go about setting up the responsive? Is it very custom based on the product? Like, do you work with a brand early on to be like, here's probably what they're going to ask you or they're telling you. What does that look like behind the scenes?Kelsey:We definitely curated a lot to the brand, a lot to the product type and to their customer demographic. So for example, Facebook recently published a case study of the work that we do with Wallow, which is a brand that sells titers, strollers. Basically goods for families and their kids. So they're really great products, but it's actually not so much about having a lot of skews. They don't have a ton of skews. It's more about why should somebody buy this Wallow stroller and how is it going to fit into their family and lifestyle?Kelsey:So essentially what we do is we'll work with them, look at the products that they sell and try to understand their customer type. In their case, a lot of their customers will buy for themselves, but there's a pretty good chunk that are gifting. So for example, the first question we ask is, is this for you and your family, or is this for a gift? Who are you gifting for? And then as customers answer these questions, we can speak to how it will fit into their lifestyle. How old is your little one? Are they eating solids yet or not?Kelsey:We don't actually need the customer to ask questions because by us asking questions first, we can preemptively answer how the value prop works for them. How it fits into their life. So we can say, "Well, they're eating solids is getting very messy. This high chair is very easy to clean." And so you're effectively accomplishing both along the way. It's basically just a really good sales conversation.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, that's really smart and I think it's a different mindset where a lot of times, when you think about chatbots, the consumer has to initiate the conversation. Has to think of the questions. And it makes me even think about when I'm hiring... I'm trying to think what I was hiring. But they're like, "Oh, do you have any more questions?" And I'm like, "Well, what do people normally ask you? Like, what's the normal questions because I don't know what to ask you."Kelsey:What should I ask. Yeah.Stephanie:If I'm buying a house or whatever it is, what are the top 10 questions you get? And so that's great being like, we'll do all the work for you. Here's some of the questions that we know will start a conversation. So it's actually less work and less cognitive load. Where you can get to the end point and still leave being like, I know what I'm talking about now with this product.Kelsey:Exactly. That's 100% right. And it's actually a really classic UX design issue. Which is actually my original background. Basically, when it comes to any digital interface or any interface at all, if you don't know where you can go, you're not really likely to do it. You're not going to walk up to a pitch black tunnel and be like, "Yeah, I feel confident walking into that."Kelsey:That's like an open free from bot conversation or like you get on a customer support call and it's like, "What can we help with?" And you're like, "Well, depending on what I answer, what's the likelihood you'll have any idea what I'm asking?" It's not great. So we find that structuring and providing a really clear interface for the customers to navigate also makes a huge difference.Stephanie:We talked about this a lot on the show that shopping is moving to the edge. Everyone is shopping on Social, they're shopping on Amazon, Walmart it's everywhere and not always on the website anymore. Do you think that websites are going to become like a secondary thing, where it's like, yeah, it's a nice to have. But people are actually on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. Going directly to Amazon, they're not really going to always go right to your website.Kelsey:That's exactly right. It's going the way of retail. And that's not to say it's going to go away. It's just that it's not the primary anymore. We see a website as like the catalog and it's a transacting location. In a lot of cases that's useful, but it's not necessary anymore. And we see that with how new sellers are starting today. Especially with COVID, everything accelerates so rapidly. But one of the really interesting trends is, you've got new shops opening up just with Instagram pages and saying, "Hey, DM me for this product and I'll send you a PayPal link."Kelsey:I think those kinds of very low tech indicators of the fact that that's where the market is heading. And, I think you're 100% right. The website's really not necessary. And there are tons of great antique shops I follow in New York that are doing just well without it.Stephanie:Yeah. That's cool. So what other trends are you seeing among sellers right now? Maybe anything new popping up and you're like, pre-COVID we actually weren't really seeing this and now there's a big trend to just opening an Instagram page and selling through DMs. What other things like that are you seeing?Kelsey:I think that's huge. I think that I'm really interested in these future QVC type of models. But that's just because I grew up watching those. I don't know, did you ever watched the knife show?Stephanie:I did not watch that, but.Kelsey:The show was wild.Stephanie:Well, there's a [crosstalk].Kelsey:I think it was on a lot when I was in college. We'd always end up like late night. The knife show would end up on at very late hour and it was just like, "Hey, here's some knives and we're just going to cut all sorts of stuff with these knives." Like the silliest thing. It was so funny, but-Stephanie:[crosstalk] the Blender show. It wasn't called the Blender show, but where they [crosstalk] random things in the blender and I'm like, [crosstalk].Kelsey:Exactly. The same kind of stuff.Stephanie:How much time do we have on our hands apparently?Kelsey:It was so silly. It was like cutting shoes and weird things like that. The humor of it, I think it was really fun. And I think that online, we're seeing a lot of that, like humor come into commerce in a way that I think it's really fun. And that's really what it should be. So I like things like that. But I do think that the new selling methods are probably what some of the most interesting things to me is just, what's the version of opening a store today versus before. And like the barrier to entry is just so low now. It's pretty phenomenal. So I'm excited for that.Stephanie:Yeah. Cool. And how do you advise brands to being proactive when it comes to starting conversations versus being reactive and just taking the inbound? Because if I'm thinking like, I'm a new brand, I don't have any inbound. What's the way to be proactive and like reach out to people with your product?Kelsey:What's really nice is that these channels are often first, which I think is really important for there to be a great customer experience. If we want these channels to succeed, if we want these brands to succeed, we need to make sure that we're being really mindful of the consumer. But what's really, really nice about Facebook Messenger while it is tough to work on another platform, play by someone else's rules sometimes, but there's a ton of great benefits there.Kelsey:And one of them is the acquisition funnel. So brands are currently running ads from Facebook and Instagram and stories, all those normal places. And all they have to do is set up the exact same ads, but they can change the destination of the ad click to open a messenger conversation instead of a website. And so we're able to say, "Hey, we're basically giving you a new ad type that you can leverage. It's going to drive to a higher converting destination." And there's no reason not to try that.Kelsey:Basically, it's a win-win from the standpoint of, it's really easy to test. We can guarantee traffic and make sure that we're properly vetting it and controlling the volume. And you can compare it one-to-one to your ads that go your website. So it makes it really easy for brands to get started. And it makes it easy for the consumers because they're doing what they don't normally do, which is click on ads. So that's the most common way to start.Kelsey:There are other ways of getting customers into the channel and you can do it with short links, with QR codes, we'll link from an email, a pop-up on your website. There's a lot of different methods there. And we have partners that do all of what I just described, but ads is a really common format because again, it's just a very seamless acquisition funnel.Stephanie:Cool. And is there anything that brands are doing right now in messenger or Instagram DMs, where you're like, that's actually the wrong way to do it? Anything that you would advise brands not to do or have seen things going wrong?Kelsey:Yeah, that's a great question. I think not doing anything at all is what I would say is the worst thing. Because, whether that's Instagram DMs and you're just not responding to the people that message you there, and that's a huge, lost opportunity. We understand that it's really hard to scale responding to people individually, which is why platforms like ours can help. But I'm just not doing anything, you're losing customers every time you don't respond to them because they want to engage with you directly for a reason.Kelsey:And every time they do that, there's an opportunity for that to become either a customer or a recurring customer. So let's say that's probably the worst, but in terms of actually doing things that are, are wrong, I don't like any of the spammy stuff and I don't like any of the things where it's not clear to the customer what's going to happen. Those are the things that I find frustrating, but in terms of how to do that, well, there's not as much going on with that anymore because Facebook really did crack down on some of it. So I'll say what I didn't like before was, there was a trend where there's an opt-in check box that you could put on your website that basically said, "I'm opting into Facebook Messenger with a business."Kelsey:And that's still something that you can use today, but at the time you could actually put it on your website pre-checked. Oftentimes customers wouldn't necessarily notice it or see that it was there or see that they had opted into something. But what was even worse was there were lots of sites that were putting them behind the scenes. So it wasn't actually visible on the page at all. So a customer would add something to their cart. And by submitting that add to cart, it was opting them into messages without them knowing it.Kelsey:And then they would get messages later if they abandoned their purchase that were like, "Hey, here's the 10% off. Here's a whatever go buy that thing you were looking at." Which inherently is not a bad workflow, but to do that without letting the customer know that's what's going to happen, really not great. I'd say that's the worst thing I've seen in this space, but you can't do that anymore. And I'm grateful for it.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, that's good. How do you keep up with the changes that Facebook's going through? Because it seems like they've been definitely on like a roller coaster where very popular. And then, I feel like they kind of went through a trough where it's like, does anyone use it anymore? And now I feel like it's growing again. Even among my friends, it's like people are using the groups now and Messenger.Kelsey:The groups are huge.Stephanie:That's the only reason I go on there for the most part, but how do you keep up with what they're even doing behind the scenes and how the buying groups on there just changing. And then coming back and then leaving, and then there on TikTok. How do you keep up with that?Kelsey:I think it could be really easy to get distracted or feel like that's very volatile. The approach that we've taken is actually just been to have our own point of view that is rooted in something just so fundamental that it doesn't matter what the policy changes are really. We won't be disturbed by them essentially. So we've looked at Facebook Messenger as a sales channel since day one of the business. And we've been around just over three years now. And of the platforms that were popping up at the time were MailChimps for Messenger, were abandoned cart notifications and things like that.Kelsey:And that is really easy to get disrupted by policy changes. But if you're fundamentally saying, this is a place where you can more effectively get a conversion from a customer and have a better experience for them. There's actually not a lot that that Facebook could do that would really interfere with that in a way. Unless they just fully said, "Hey, you can't actually use the API at all anymore." They just shut the API down. Then it'd be like, okay, fine. But even if that were to happen, the US market for messaging is inherently multi-channel.Kelsey:Messenger's not being first or last for us. It's going to be one of many. So, that's the way that we approach it as yes, we keep up with the trends. We are a platform partner, so we're pretty in tune with the roadmap and what's going to be happening there. And that's really important. The relationship is really important to make sure that you can prepare for your business. But at the end of the day, I think having a really just underlying fundamental platform approach to what we're doing, enables us to avoid a lot of the mishaps that we've seen affect other business models.Stephanie:Yeah. Cool. And you just mentioned like messaging is just the first, are there other areas that you feel like there's a lot of opportunity that brands can be selling in right now. Or maybe it's not even ready yet, but in the future it's coming down the pike.Kelsey:Yeah. I think anywhere where consumers and brands can have a direct conversation, you're going to see things evolve for that. And it might depend on the platform, if the platform is incentivized towards it or interested in it. Facebook supports this because they believe in messaging as the future of consumer behavior. It's something that's been around since the beginning of the internet, we've been chatting. I don't think that's going anywhere, but Facebook is also really highly motivated to monetize on it. And so, there's opportunity there.Kelsey:But would someone like discord do something like this? I'm not sure. I'm not sure if they're like motivated towards that or if that's part of the business that they want to be building. But I really do see that any messaging channel where you can have that kind of interaction, there's no reason not to produce a better shopping experience there and tried to scale that. It's kind of infinite, I think.Stephanie:I wonder if chatbots on websites, like native chatbots have muddied up a bit. Where it's like, we've all had that bad experience with a chatbot where they're talking and you're like, "Get away, get away. You're not going to be able to help me. I already know it Verizon, stop." [crosstalk]. I wonder if that has hindered the market, with certain people being open to buying via chat bot when they've had experiences that are subpar on maybe certain websites.Kelsey:At the start of these platforms opening up and these APIs opening up, you had people making bots left and right. And they were very low quality. It tarnished it a little bit. I think tarnished it a bit for the consumer and for the brands, because, when things opened up, brands started testing things and they weren't getting performance results. It wasn't their fault. It's really hard. It's like launching your first website and then not working super well. It's like, well, yeah, this is a totally new... It's where the start of websites existing. It's like, yeah, that's tough. It's tough to figure it out. It's a whole new learning curve.Kelsey:So I think that in terms of, what can happen there. It is very easy to tarnish their reputation, but again, it's not going anywhere. So as long as again, you have an opportunity to drive a better experience. You should keep iterating on that. And again, it's like if you have customers that are willing to do directly, it's always an opportunity to do better and to turn them into a better customer for you as well. There is also really huge difference between like the customer support experiences like that, and these types of sales experiences. I think there's a pretty clear line between the two and a lot of that depends on the customer's intent.Kelsey:If you're coming from an ad to shop driver, for example, you know that's what you're doing and you know that that's what you're being helped to do. And it's pretty straightforward. But if you're going in with any level of support need, there's a lot of opportunity to get that wrong. So it's really tough.Stephanie:Someone's already coming in with a heated mindset and one wrong word from chatbot. Ooh, I'm hot.Kelsey:Exactly.Stephanie:The one thing I think about too is the payment piece and how to make sure that customer journey is frictionless because even when I hear, Oh, some brands have a PayPal link, which I think is great. Or like an MVP, get something out there. And also, show there like, do I even know my PayPal login? Like, Oh, I don't know.Kelsey:Exactly.Stephanie:How do you think about, making the checkout experience frictionless where it's not a million different options and people know it's very be fast and easy.Kelsey:Currently we actually drive to check out on the brand site and we find that works really well because it's the trusted destination. You have all of the tooling and UI that you need to be able to have a good seamless checkout experience. And that works really well. Checkout is on our roadmap to be able to process that and manage that. And we won't be like a payment processor. We have partners we're talking to on end, but in terms of the checkout, there's a lot of ways to handle that.Kelsey:And I think that there's been so much best practice learned from mobile shopping as it is, that can be leveraged there. And there's also a ton of testing opportunities, but we really do look to... We're not trying to reinvent wheels here. Stephanie:That whole space is evolving so quick and just talking to the team at fast and continuing to be here and see what they're doing with the one-click checkout. I'm like, it seems like there's such an opportunity to have that right. In every form of like, you've got your cart already loaded in like your Instagram DM, and you can just hit checkout and all your payment information save and drop onto the next Instagram site.Kelsey:[crosstalk].Stephanie:There also seems like there's a good opportunity for Amazon there. I always look at all those Q&A sections, where it seems like how much time do I spend looking at toothpaste? Is it fluoride-free? It's for my kids, is it fluoride free? Does it not have this, that, that. All these questions, but I'm actually going through the whole product page for a thing of toothpaste so much time wasted. But it would be really nice to have a Messenger on there where you could just say, "Hey, does this have this and this?" Instead of me trying to zoom in on the ingredient list, or like, look at all the reviews for something that's like $6 or whatever it may be.Kelsey:Yeah, exactly. I hope Amazon's listening. They should come talk to us. We haven't seen anything quite like that, but we have talked to brands that sell on Amazon and we have done experiences in Messenger that link to Amazon product. That is something that we've experimented with before. And I think that you have to your point, why scroll through a million questions and answers that aren't necessarily relevant to you? And one might be, when you could just have the brand get to know you better and then tell you what you need to know.Stephanie:Yeah, exactly. So when you're first starting to work with brands who are implementing chatbots, what kind of metrics do you maybe advise them to look at to see if it's going well or not? Because a lot of people I could see being new to this, not even knowing like, well, what should I expect for conversion? Or like, what's good. What's bad. Like, how do you advise them around that?Kelsey:That's a great question. So first and foremost, and I think this is a little bit of what might have gotten wrong in the early days of the channel. Businesses care about performance. They care about conversions and CACs and return, and all those things. So, we want to make sure we're mapping to that because if you don't then at the end of the day, they're going to be worth your time if it's not performing on those metrics? Probably not. So first and foremost, we can own conversion rate. That's the KPI that we really truly measure against. Because essentially we're saying if you drive traffic here, instead of your website, it's more likely to convert. That's our thesis. And so if that's true, that's what we're going to start measuring against. And we'll do that by looking at what's your conversion rate from a standard click to site ad.Kelsey:So purchases you're getting out of link clicks. And then when you run a click to Messenger ad, we'll do the exact same thing. How many purchases are you getting out of those ad clicks? And that should be able to tell us if it's a higher converting channel for you. Fundamentally we've seen anywhere from 50% increases to 10X increases in one case and anywhere in between. So it's not abnormal for that to be the initial result. But then in terms of the other things like captain role, as they should benefit from that better conversion rate. It shouldn't be approached necessarily differently than any other conversion tests that you're running.Kelsey:That being said, we have a ton of insight into the full funnel that we can leverage to optimize. And so, all of our partners start with at least a three month program because we know it takes time to warm up and we want to make sure we can iterate. And we do that on a weekly basis. So you might start with X result in month one, by the end of month three, it should be much better. And so the way that we can do that is looking at everything from a customer clicks on an ad, they land into Messenger. Do they respond to the first message, which basically ops them into the channel?Kelsey:Are they completing like a quiz? If there's a quiz or personal shopper? Are they clicking on products back to the website? And then are they adding to cart? And then are they purchasing? So we have a slightly different funnel. You're going to get your ad performance from ads manager and see the link clicks and add to carts and purchases. Paloma is going to see everything in between. So we'll be able to know exactly where people are off and why. And be able to iterate on that much more efficiently than if it were traffic going to a website, where are they clicking? How are they browsing? There's like a ton of more opaque data from a website side. From our end we can literally just see, okay, you have too much drop-off on the first question. So let's not ask that question. Or, Hey, everybody is answering the same way to this one question, that doesn't need to be there.Kelsey:Or, people are clicking on the products. Maybe we need different product batches or whatever that may be. So we'll be able to get a lot more of a finer detail on that. And we have benchmarks for each. We expect our partners to get at least a 30% opt-in rate, maybe percent completion on any type of quiz or personal shopper experience. And then at least 50% of traffic clicking back to the website. And then from there add to carts and purchases depends on what they would normally expect to see. It's kind of a lengthy answer.Stephanie:It's good to know metrics like that to aim for. How do you plug into a brand's inventory system and then also make matches. That will be something that I want to look at. I can just imagine me going in there and not knowing what I ever want being like, "I want a picture." And then someone's showing me something and maybe like, "Oh, not that one." How do you guys personalize it and show something I want, but also make sure that you're not tapping into inventory, that's like out of stock.Kelsey:So we basically can ingest inventory into our system, keep that up to sync, keep that availability up to sync. And so anytime that we're building experiences, you're able to make sure that it's the right things getting shown. In terms of what to show customers based on their selections. We have this like start matching dynamic product matching system where basically the customer's responses get associated with the inventory.Kelsey:So all of your boots are associated with like a boot selection or all of your things that come and break colors would get associated with like bright colors. If you were asking about color preference. And some of these qualities are not things that would normally be tagged onto your inventory. So we're basically expanding on that. So we make the association between the two and as customers make the selections, we basically just filter down and display all the things that would then relate.Kelsey:So like Andy swimwear, for example, if you chose one pieces and some coverage and a lot of support, you're only going to see the products that, apply to all of those qualities. And it's really simple for us to create those. Something like that can take like 10 minutes to build, whereas a quiz to put on a website can cost thousands of dollars and take two months. And so, that's kind of part of the magic and secret sauce of our software.Stephanie:Yeah, that's cool. I was just thinking about, okay, to even create that kind of filtering and navigation options and all that can take a long time. And tagging it and making sure that it's actually can be searchable. And then if you can just have it in a DM or Messenger, that's great game changing.Kelsey:Yeah. It's really fun. It's a very simple, we have like own drag and drop interface to just jag product on to the selection options. They're tagged with that in the future. And then as customers answer, we just know what to show them.Stephanie:Cool. Where do you see the future of commerce headed or chatbots and commerce intersecting. What does that look like to you maybe three to five years down the road? Where do you hope it looks?Kelsey:Really, again, I like to look to what people are doing now when they're just starting out and also at other markets. So really in terms of the future of commerce, we believe very strongly that it's on messaging channels, that that is the next door front. And so, what does that look like? It's customers going to DMs, it's brands driving traffic to DMs and customers just getting much better shopping experiences there, converting there, checking out there. And new stores not having to even open up a website. Again, I don't think website's going to necessarily totally go away, but it's just going to be a smaller part of the puzzle. If you look at what's gone on in other markets like China with Weechat, they're way ahead of the game. And that works really, really well.Kelsey:And it's a huge chunk of the commerce ecosystem out there. So we've been a little bit slower to that, but it is happening. It's happening a little bit more multichannel, and I think that's really interesting and that's a really fun challenge is that, we don't have the monolith app that will do it all. We have a lot of [crosstalk] apps. I think it's great because everyone likes to have their own different way. We're always getting new social networks and apps out there and it's fun. It's really fun. So basically, I'm not sure how many different tools there will be in the future, but we very strongly believe that messaging is the next channel and destination for commerce to happen. And we're effectively building the platform to power that. Stephanie:That's great. It definitely begs the question about keeping things organized when you're selling on so many different channels. And there's probably going to be dozens of messaging platforms that people are using. I'm just imagining a brand, trying to keep up where, they go from selling on their website and then maybe dabbling in Amazon, maybe on Walmart. And then all of a sudden it's now, you can sell on Pinterest and Instagram and Facebook and TikTok. How do you think a brand would be able to keep up or do you see anything right now? Like any innovations that are allowing brands to organize everything in one central place that they can keep track of what they're doing?Kelsey:There are definitely a lot of interesting tools. I think that what comes before the tools are just the people, expertise. I think that's what we're seeing, services and agencies that will help with coordinating all of those things or know how to best launch on Amazon. And then once you've launched on Amazon and all these other places, then you go, okay, well now I have everything in too many places I need a more scalable system. And that's when you start seeing softwares get put in place. And I don't think any come to mind immediately, but I think there's some really great tools that are coming up to try to glue things together and basically to piece together, all the different supply chain and logistics issues.Kelsey:And there's some really great things out there for that. But we're also seeing new commerce platforms that are inherently taking those things in mind. So we have a lot of commerce players that exist that are trying to catch up and trying to add on these different channels. But then you have new players that are from day one saying, "We know it's not just about one place." So you've got things like, headless commerce and no code tools and platforms like Paloma that will from day one say, "Hey, this isn't just about a single source of shopping. It's about a lot of things."Stephanie:Yeah. I completely agree. All right, well, let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. I'll ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready? You look a little nervous. Wow.Kelsey:I don't know, that's scary. It's a little daunting.Stephanie:No, it'll be fun. It'll be fun. What one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year. I have a feeling you're say message shopping and Messsenger.Kelsey:Obviously messaging. I'll just be repeating myself a little bit, but I think messaging is a bit. It's already been exploding pretty quickly and it's growing faster than ever. We drove almost 9 million in partner revenue last year. And that's just as a small, early stage team, so there's a lot ahead of us.Stephanie:Yeah. That's cool. What, one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Kelsey:Just so many people things. I find people so fascinating. I'm constantly seeing how people chat, but I would just love to talk to people about their experiences with all of these experiences and with all these different kind of shopping channels. And, I think that it's not something that I don't understand. It's just something that I'm always eager to understand people's behaviors more. So that'd probably be it. [inaudible].Stephanie:What's up next on your Netflix queue?Kelsey:I am so behind, I need to watch Bridgeton and literally everything else. I've been doing a Buffy rewatch. So I'm just like living in a very different time.Stephanie:What is a book that has really left a very big impression on you? You're like, "I always think back to this book for either business or life."Kelsey:Oh, that is a great question. I'd say, well, what are the ones that comes to mind, it's Italo Calvino. [crosstalk] is the author. And basically, it's a person telling stories about visiting a lot of different cities. And when I was younger, I found that it was just... When you're reading, it's all about picturing what's going on. And as someone who, if you didn't grow up being able to travel a lot, it stuck with me. I was like, I want to be able to do that someday, but also just being able to picture it from a book is really, really nice. I still have like the images in my head of different passages from that.Stephanie:Oh, that's cool. All right. And then the last one, what's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Kelsey:Oh my gosh. I feel like people are so nice. What is the nicest thing anyone's ever done to me? Oh gosh, there's too many things.Stephanie:Wow. You must be a very... People are sending all this nice stuff you way. [crosstalk] people around you, can I have some?Kelsey:When you run a business, or when you start a business, it's all about getting help. That's the best way to be able to succeed is knowing what you don't know and how to get help. So I will say I'm very good at getting help, but what's like the biggest part of that is having people be really nice and great. And so, there are just a lot of people that have helped along the way that I literally would not be where I am without that. From little things like making the introductions, not everyone has access to the networks that you need. And so, the people that believed in me more than the business or more than anything else, that's really huge.Kelsey:And so, I've just got like some really great, great people that helped along the way. I can't pick a single thing, but I'd say like some of our investors, some of just the people I've worked with in the past and they're really just root for you. And will be there when you say, "I have no idea what I'm doing. How does this work?" Or, "I need some help."Stephanie:I thought so. Good answer. All right, Kelsey. Well, it's been a blast having you on the show. I love learning about Paloma and your story. Where can people find out more about you and Paloma?Kelsey:You can learn more about Paloma, getpaloma.com, G-E-T-P-A-L-O-M-A. And me I'm on Twitter, LinkedIn at Kelsey Hunter. I think it's usually Kelsey AH. So feel free to message me, check out the site, chat with us. We're always around.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.

For more than two decades, Dan McGaw has been engrossed in the world of marketing technology. And through the years, there has rarely been a new MarTech tool that Dan hasn’t given a shot. Why has he placed such an emphasis on knowing the latest tools available to marketers? Because every company, big or small, needs to invest in tools that will elevate their business rather than slow it down. Some tools are better than others, and sifting through the rubbish to find the diamonds is a daunting task. That’s where Dan and his company, McGaw.io, come in.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Dan discusses all of the marketing technology he’s bullish on at the moment, and why he believes ecommerce companies will be investing heavily in certain tools and operational activities. From campaign tracking, to multi-touch attribution, to recommendation engines, to personalization, Dan’s toolbelt has a tool for you, and he also has some comforting words for anyone who is worried about the potential of a cookieless future. Main Takeaways:Text Me Back: Companies are misusing SMS messaging as simply a way to send promotional messages. Instead, brands should think about texting as a way to open two-way communication with their customers, especially through the use of direct questions and interactive exchanges.An Easy Way to Personalize: There are opportunities to personalize the shopping experience that are being left on the table. Brands reflexively choose the easy option of sending a cart abandonment email reminding users what they left in their cart. What would be more effective is sending an email that utilizes their entire shopping history, including things they didn’t add to their cart. Just because they didn’t add a particular item, doesn’t mean they weren’t interested. After all, they simply could have been distracted or otherwise disposed of before making the transaction. C is for Cookie: Despite the fact that many people are worried about the death of third-party cookies, they will not completely disappear. And, in fact, there are actually already alternatives to cookies available that work in a similar way. Find out what they are and how to use them by tuning in!For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder at mission.org. First things first, I would love it if you could hit subscribe and leave a rating and review, let me know how I'm doing and what you guys are interested in hearing in the future. All right, onto the show. Today, we have Dan McGaw, the CEO and founder of McGaw.io. Dan, welcome.Dan:Hey, how are you today?Stephanie:Good. How are you?Dan:I'm doing amazing. I'm living the dream right now. So having a ton of fun.Stephanie:You are. So tell me a bit about McGaw. So I was reading about your background and what you were known for, and someone called you the godfather of the marketing tech stack and one of the original growth hackers. So if I'm setting you up big here, let me know. But tell me, how did you get those names and what does your current company do?Dan:Yeah, great question. Well, I got those names from other people calling me, which is pretty fascinating to say the least because I remember the first time that I heard that I was like, "What?" But then it kind of caught some legs. So I've been in this space for over 20 years. So I've been doing marketing technology marketing since 1998. So I've been doing mass emails since before mass email was even a thing. So I just have been around for a really long time and I've been in the marketing technology space since before there was even a concept known as marketing technology. So definitely have had a long history of doing this. I've been an entrepreneur for a long time, even have been, another funny, fancy title that I was given is I am a United States ambassador of entrepreneurship.Stephanie:I saw that too. I didn't know what that meant though so I was afraid to put that one out there.Dan:Right? So I was selected by the United States State Department to be an ambassador of entrepreneurship to Mexico and I was flown to Mexico and I had to advise a bunch of companies and corporations and colleges on how to build entrepreneur ecosystem. So it's just been really fascinating. I think that the big thing that I will just say is I have a really big mouth and I'm always out there doing something stupid and I'm not afraid to say how I feel. So it's kind of wound me up with some cool places and I've done some really cool stuff, but yeah, I've had an amazing career. Everything from working at a cemetery, to making pizzas to now of course doing some really bad-ass marketing technology stuff. So I hope that helps.Stephanie:So what'd you do at the cemetery? Now you've piqued my interest there. We'll just have a conversation about that now.Dan:Yeah. Right. And that was the creepiest job I've ever had, but so awesome. I just did, I was a lands crew person and I weed whacked and I blew leaves. I think I was 14 in middle school, but I've always had the hustle so I just wanted to work and make cash. And I mean, I started my first company when I was 13 and was very successful in that business. So I've always just wanted to make money and that's actually how I got into marketing technologies. I saw marketing technology was going to blow up and we chose a vein in there and stuck with it and it worked out really well.Stephanie:That's cool. So how did you see that area was going to blow up? I mean, you're saying that it was before there was even a terminology around it. How did you see this as an industry I want to get into and now I know what to actually do to even be helpful.Dan:Yeah. Fascinating question. So my first company was basically in the music business. We started one of the first online booking agencies for DJs and producers. So everybody here has probably watched the Fyre documentary on Hulu or Netflix. I literally did that same exact business except for I was not a fraud, which is so fascinating. We started an online website and bulletin boards marketing DJs and producers that basically would do raves. Today we now call it EDM and it's all this big billion dollar industry, but back then it was like nothing. And I was just young and didn't know what the hell I was doing. And so I said, "Hey, we're going to figure out how to promote these DJs because I love raves like any ..." What 13 year old goes to raves? But either way-Stephanie:Yeah, really. Where are your parents? We don't know where Dan went. He's been gone for a week.Dan:Supporting me a 100%, crazy enough, but I started that and then really started figuring out the internet and none of our competitors were using the internet. They were still just like relationship based. And as we went through that process, I learned a little bit about development, HTML and nobody was doing anything. So so far in like those days, AOL didn't even have a concept of mass email. You had to get white listed to send mass emails. So I just kind of started doing it to come to find out that there wasn't really any technology back then to do this stuff. So before there was all this tech to be able to make it happen, I was already kind of making it happen manually. So I got really involved, naturally Google analytics which was urchin came out and like ad tech became and there wasn't MarTech. It was just ad tech at the time, Google analytics and traffic tracking.Dan:I got really big into UTM tracking, which is kind of the first bit of it. So fast forward a little bit to like 2000, I think like 11 or something like that, Kissmetrics was a large analytics company. I got hired there as the head of marketing. I was hired to replace Neil Patel, one of the founders. So I wound up becoming like the head of marketing at one of the rocket ship analytics companies. But all the stuff in between the middle there was kind of you just made it up as you went. And then 2011, 2012 was when MarTech kind of like took off and I saw that as a humongous opportunity. So I've just kind of have stayed in that industry.Stephanie:Okay, cool. And what brands do you work with today for context?Dan:Yeah, really, really good question. I mean, our clients weren't ... So our company mission is to help companies of all sizes realize that their customer data is their most valuable asset. So we work with some really, really small companies all the way up to some really, really big ones. So some big ones that people would know like King's Hawaiian Bread. We do a lot of their implementation work. We are managing their ecommerce. Hydro.com, which is like the Peloton of rowing. We do work with them. Some other people might be familiar with like forksoverknives.com. They were a long time client of ours. We no longer work with them, but I mean, we helped blow them up. These are some really popular brands that people would be aware of, but we also work with some of the MarTech companies. So even Kissmetrics has hired us. Segment.com has hired us. Looker which is owned by Google has hired us. So it's really across the board. It's been a lot of fun.Stephanie:Cool. And what kind of challenges do you see the bigger brand struggling with today? And is it kind of similar to maybe with the smaller brands that you work with? Like same kind of thing or are they very different problems you have to focus on?Dan:I think the problems are exactly the same. I think the tactics which are being used are slightly different because the tool set changes, but there's two primary problems that most companies have and that's when they come to us, which is great, is they either lack visibility into their customer journey or they lack the ability to engage in the customer journey. And this is a pretty big problem that every business faces is that they can't see what's happening in that customer journey or they can't act in there. And that's where the marketing stack which is what our specialty really is, is we help companies basically connect all the tools together, integrate them, operate them and be able to gain visibility into that journey so they can provide engagement there.Dan:And this is one of the biggest problems that you're facing in marketing today because everybody's figured out ad tech. Everybody's figured out email automation and everybody is kind of trying to figure out analytics now, but there's still this huge middle and bottom that nobody understands and that's really where our company kind of sits nice and sweetly. So the customer journey is huge right now. I mean, that's what everybody's focused on.Stephanie:Cool. So where do you see companies going wrong right now in the customer journey? Like are there similar things or like you guys all keep doing the same thing and it's messing everything up or is everything very different, all the problems that you maybe discover as you were starting to look into how the brands are operating.Dan:Yeah. The biggest thing that we see that that's fairly consistent, and it's the thing that no marketer really focuses on is it's the taxonomy of the integration. So like what does taxonomy mean? So every time that somebody does an action or we learn an attribute about somebody who's coming through our funnel, that's got to have a name to it. It's got to have a label or as you might call, nomenclature. We've got to all call it the same thing. And that's a big problem that we see across organizations and I'll try to put this ... If you're working with an online education company, the marketing team is calling it a signup, but the development team is calling it an enrollment, but customer success is calling it a registration. And the problem is when this happens and the data all goes into the systems, you now have three attributes for the same exact action, and it makes it really hard to tie all these things together.Dan:So the fundamental problem that we see most companies have is that they just don't have a consistent taxonomy across the stack. So when they finally start looking at the customer journey, they have it all in different namings, and then they have to spend all their time transforming things to get them to line up. So that foundational thing is the last thing everybody focuses on, but when they get that right and it works across the entire stack using a unified taxonomy, which sounds so technical but it really isn't, they really are able to create magic because now everybody is calling the first name of a customer by first underscore name in the analytics, but in the attributes you see in marketing automation is Fname. Right? So that's usually the key problem that we see is that taxonomy is wrong. And then the second problem that we see is that the tools are not connected.Stephanie:Yeah. So it's funny talking about how the taxonomy is wrong. A lot of people listening might be like, that's so easy. And I'd say for a startup like starting out, it's very easy if you know to do that from the start. Like of course, have your variables, make sure they're exactly what you want and train people up, have your data dictionary, whatever you may have so everyone uses the same term. But actually when it's a bigger company which I've seen like back in my Google days, everyone's operating off different things. How do you bring the org together and all the different departments to be able to not only agree like this is the variable, but then make sure everyone's using it that way? Because that's actually a lot trickier than I think some might think.Dan:Yeah, it's extremely, extremely hard to get that cross department alignment. And it's fascinating because like this is one of the things that a growth team would ultimately help with, is kind of cross department alignment in regards to these things. But growth is always focused on action, not necessarily planning. So a new companies or I don't want to say new companies, excuse me. The new role a lot of companies are rolling out is revenue operations, marketing operations, sales operations, revenue operations is the big position that SaaS companies are hiring because it straddles across marketing sales and customer success And that's the big thing that's happening. And I think in a lot of the enterprise companies, you're going to see a lot more of these revenue operations style roles that are coming out that try to align it.Dan:Because everybody's realizing if your data's crap, okay, great, we can't do any of these cool things. This is where a lot of companies are getting their CIOs involved. I think the conversation over the past two years has really shifted away from, hey, we're just talking to marketing technology. So now the CIO calls the shots for all of this because the CIO is the one who makes the decision on business intelligence and all that. So I think a lot of CIOs own the problem. I don't think that they understand the problem because it's outside of their purview, which is sales and marketing. So I think it will be really, really hard, but it's really important for a company to have good data. And without good data, you're kind of, you can't do machine learning, you can't do artificial intelligence, you can't do personalization. But right now it's the CIO, which I think needs to hire the revenue operations person to really get that done.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. And a side note, if anyone's like, "I really want to hear more from CIOs," we have a whole podcast called IT visionaries where we interview CIOs from fortune 500 companies. So go check it out. So okay. You get your data all set and correct at the company that you're working with. What's the next thing that you encounter that's either an issue or that you see happening a lot right now?Dan:Well, I mean, just to make sure, I mean, the taxonomy, the data dictionary like you said, which I think is possibly a more common term or a schema. I mean, there's just so many ways to call this, which is ridiculous. The integration of the tools I think is really, really important. A lot of companies don't understand the way that tools can now integrate. We have a concept that we call data recycling. You typically see companies that are looking for what's known as we want our source of truth or our single record of truth. And for us, we find that to be a really, really bad model. What you should be trying to do is mirror your data across many, many different tools over and over and over again, and then recycle this data throughout the entire tools. If you have a single record of truth, which is always great, that means that you're helping one team and holding back many other teams.Dan:So we try to make it so that we recycle the data as much as we can and that's through basically data recycling. Leveraging a customer data platform is always really helpful for this, leveraging tools like Zapier, leveraging tools like tray.io, Workado is always really, really good, but you have to string the systems together along in a very, very structured manner to make it so that that data can even flow. Because even if you call everything the same, if nothing's connected in the right way, you're still not going to make any progress. So integration is also a key part of that.Stephanie:Yep. Cool. So now thinking about a little bit farther down the line like maybe when it comes to actually either interacting with the customer or guiding them around on your website or something, what things can be improved there because I've talked to quite a few companies or people on this podcast who say, "Any plugins, get away with all the plugins, they just slow your website down. You just need to focus on website speed. But then you were mentioning earlier how much do you love tools, and so tell me more about that.Dan:Yeah. I mean, I definitely think website speed is extremely, extremely important. I mean, when you're a large ecommerce company, speed is obviously paramount because it affects everything from SEO rankings to people actually converting on the website. But I also think you have to very much focus on personalization and creating a customer journey for the user. I think there's two kinds of use here. I mean, one marketing automation is great because it enables you to do so much, but sometimes we lose the human element and we kind of forget that people are still humans. They want to have a communication channel with us. So you want to make sure that you can personalize the experience and tailor that experience as much as you can. But at the same time, you just don't want to overdo it. So we focus a lot on personalization throughout the website, getting people back to where they want it to be, back to where they left off.Dan:And this would be, so as an example where you don't want to use a plugin because you want to let them use their experience. As things are happening on the website, we can track that in real time. We can save that in marketing automation, we can save that in any tool. So when the person leaves the website, we can very easily send them an email saying, hey, picked up where you left off. Especially if it's ecommerce, right? Last product that they viewed, they don't need to add it to their cart. I think it's the stupidest thing that we do. We send cart abandonment emails to people when they add something to their cart, because we think they have interest. If you send people an email which showed them the last five items that they've viewed, it adds the same value, right?Dan:Just because I added it to my cart, yes, it means I'm interested. Just because I didn't add it to my cart doesn't mean that I'm not interested in it. It means I probably have a five-year-old that's distracting me and I didn't get to add it to my cart. So we see allowing people to pick up where they left off as a really, really easy thing to do. But personalization in helping them accomplish their journey I think is the biggest thing. Marketers job is ... I come from a developer company where the marketer's job was, we were there to manipulate and trick people. And it's like that's not my job.Dan:But a marketer's job in my opinion is to basically help somebody accomplish their goals by serving them what they wanted in the first place. Right. It's to create that magical customer experience, knowing what they already wanted and serving them that on a silver platter, not tricking them to figure out, oh, you should've bought this, right? And I think that's where growth hacking went bad a few years back is it got a little like slimy and really it's about how do we just create the best customer experience for them through personalization?Stephanie:Yeah. So sometimes I think that personalization that I could see it going too far and I've talked to this a bit on the show before of like when you call in on the phone and it's like a robot and they're pretending to type, and they're trying to personalize it to your name and they're jacking with your name or sometimes you get an email and it's so over the top, like Stephanie, I saw this, this and this and it made me thought of you and whatever. I'm like, "Oh, creepy." How do you walk that fine line of giving people something that is helpful, but not being creepy.Dan:Yeah. And just because you're using the word creepy, it brings back some awesome ... I have a webinar and deck that I did before COVID happened. I was traveling the country doing this talk about automation without being creepy. But what does creepy really mean? So what I advise everybody who's listening to this podcast, grab your cell phone and I need you to go to your text messages and I want you to text (415) 915-9011. I'll just say a number again, (415) 915-9011. And I just want you to text the word creepy to that number and then follow along with the text prompt. There's a bot that will follow along with creepy. And then if you're really, really well known on the internet, you're going to get a super creepy email that will surprise you on what the internet already knows about you and that we have access to through your email. So either way, nice experiment for your people to go try, but-Stephanie:I want to do that now. Now that piques my interest. I don't know if I'm well-known enough on the internet though, but we'll see. It'll pull things from like Facebook. I'm like, "Here's what you're doing, Stephanie, back in high school."Dan:Yeah. We'll see. I mean, and usually the minimum that you're going to get is like we get your zip code or it might have your wrong zip code, but there's for myself and had over 300 attributes. I was like, "Holy crap, the internet knows way too much about me." But that being said, you do follow this line of creepiness to straddle, right? And you have to understand like target as an example can predict with nearly 90% accuracy that you're going to be pregnant within three months or you are pregnant within three months and that's crazy data science that you have and that blurs the line of creepiness. What you have to understand is that you don't want to impact life moments like that. Always, you don't want to precede those things, but what you have to figure out is how do you understand what they're looking for and then just serve that element to them?Dan:Because with an email address and with your IP address, we can basically find out anything we want, which is really, really terrifying to think about. So you have to make sure that you're just superseding what somebody is probably already looking for and there's definitely enrichment that you can get. So knowing that it's raining in somebodies area and sending them an email is not necessarily a bad thing, but you don't need to tell them that you know that you know it's raining, right? Like don't say, "Hey, it's raining, you should buy an umbrella." But yes, it's okay to send them umbrellas and rain boots and things like that, which banana republic knows how to send emails based upon that but they don't say it's raining. So there's a lot of ways that you can be helpful to somebody without telling them that what you're doing. But I mean, you can be really creepy if you want.Stephanie:I mean, I think that it sounds simple, but I like that where it's you have all this information, but you don't have to be like, "Hey, here's the zip code you live in? And apparently there's this festival going on right now." Like you can send something where it's like, oh, how did you know? Cool, okay. That's helpful because now I know of an event or whatever nearby without you saying, I know exactly the attributes of why I'm sending you this email because of this or whatever. So that's interesting.Dan:Yeah. There's an API for that too. When you talk about the events, I immediately think of companies that have APIs that allow you to have events and people's areas. So definitely an API for that nowadays.Stephanie:There you go. So what are some of your favorite tools that you're using where you're seeing the biggest success with right now? And it can be marketing tools., it can be stuff around like helping the customer journey. I mean, what comes to mind where you're like, "Oh, 2021, I'm really leaning into these things or we're implementing these things on our customer's websites."Dan:Yeah. So there's probably two primaries that I would go with. One, I'm super big fan of text message marketing, but I think a lot of companies get it wrong in the fact that they use it as a promotional channel and they use it as spray and pray. So I think text is really, really big. We use a software called autopilot, which is our marketing automation tool. They have an integration with Twilio so you can build a Twilio bot. So earlier I said, "Hey, text this number and text this word to it." It adds you to a subscription list and then it will automatically send you information and it can talk back and forth with you. And those types of technologies are where you really get some interesting engagement from consumers in regards to your services. So definitely is a real unique channel, but I wouldn't say that that's something that you would leverage on your website all the time.Dan:However, as somebody's going through your checkout flow and you collect their cell phone information, this is a way that you can reach out to them. Hey, we shipped your order to you and it has arrived today, right? Provide them helpful tips and then say, "Hey, you received your order. On a scale from one to five, how did it arrive?" And things like that. And providing this two way communication channel is really, really good for consumers. It gives them a communication channel. You do have to connect it to a support system and things like that. But customers really find it unique when you're trying to have a two-way conversation with them compared to like buy my 20% off thing.Dan:People hate getting those spam promotions. They hit stop more than you would like to think. So I think that for me, leveraging the SMS bots, whether that be through Autopilot and I think there's a company called Text In, which does really, really good there. There's another company called salesmsg.com. And no, I'm not talking about the Panda Express MSG, but salesmessage.com. They're more integrated with HubSpot or more meant for sales teams, but they work really, really good for customer support too. So text is huge for me. And then the flip side-Stephanie:How do you think about engaging people in texts? Because that's an issue where, I mean, I even think about like World Market right now just sent me a text this morning, like oh, 20% off. They send it to me like every week. I'm like is every week, 20% off week? I start to lose interest and I just haven't had the time to hit stop yet. But how do you think about building a flow that's going to keep your customer actually engaged and excited to see your texts coming in? So I feel like it's a two-way thing instead of just blasting them with promotions.Dan:Yeah. It's got to be really personalized. And this is why when we think about text messages, we think about it from a helper perspective. Right? So we have to think about like the things that are going to optimize their customer experience, not the things that are going to help us, right? Sending somebody a 20% discount is not helping them, that's helping us. So when we think about the change in that fundamentals is of course like when somebody is coming through your website, like hey, you can of course, hey, do you want to be updated with sales and promotions? Right. But I would target it more, hey, do you want to be made aware when we launch new skirts or hey, do you want to be made aware when we do these specific things, and try to only send the messages what's they're requesting which is going to help them in whatever they're trying to accomplish.Dan:And you get unique opportunities like when somebody is going through the checkout experience, right? Like, hey, do you want us to keep you aware of certain things that they're already interested in or hey, do you want to be shipping notifications? Do you want us to keep you aware of your shipping notifications? And those are good ways to get people going, but asking questions is going to get you much more than, hey, here's 20% off. Right. So I think asking questions, that's where the bot part comes into play is asking the question, like do you feel that our customer experience is optimal? Can you reply back with a one to 10 on how your checkout experience was? People respond back with a seven or two or a five. That's the interaction they're looking for, not hey, here's 20% off, right?Stephanie:Yeah. Unless you walk in the door. That's when I always think I'm like, if I walk into the door of a retail location and then I get that text, cool. I'm happy with it. But if you're just sending it to me when I'm at home ... Yeah. It is so possible. I know I'm like, they've got the beacons in the stores, you can do it. There's so many ways to do it now, but I don't see many brands at least retail locations doing that quite yet. But maybe I just don't go into retail stores obviously.Dan:Well, yeah. Yeah. The retail stores is hard. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think if anybody on this podcast wants to do that, let's do that because I know how to do that, leveraging radar, mobile apps and all that stuff. So like totally cool. I think my favorite campaign was by Burger King. They said if you were within 500 meters of a McDonald's, we will send you a free coupon for a free Whopper and you have five minutes to buy it. So if you had the Burger King app, came in within 500 meters or so I think it was even maybe a hundred yards of a McDonald's, you would get an instant push notification, you have five minutes to get your free Whopper. Holy crap. I mean, can we say contextual?Dan:But yeah, that's all possible. I agree with you. If I walked into JC Penney and JC Penny sent me a 10% off discount, I would totally use it. We were working with an ice-cream retailer, which I can unfortunately say the name. They're trying to create a loyalty program, but they couldn't figure out how to do it. And we're like, "Dude, just put a fricking number on the side of your building that says text loyalty now to this number and you're in our loyalty program. And then connect that to beacons and you can do more stuff with it, connect it to your app and do more stuff with it." And-Stephanie:Did they do it?Dan:No, they didn't listen because they were too traditional, who needs technology either way. But [crosstalk] is super powerful.Stephanie:That'd be a really good thing to do now that I'm in Austin area. So hey, anyone listening from Austin, give me a shout out. I'm here now. Yeah. But that's a good area to do that because there's so much like artwork and graffiti that turns into artwork on all the buildings out here, but people pay attention to it. So I think it does depend on the city you're in of like, are people open to that or will they see it and be like, "Man, there's writing on a building."Dan:Yeah. I think text is awesome. I mean, you just, people suck at it and I think people suck at most marketing in general. They just try to spray out there and hope for the best. So the one other technology, there's two technologies that we're testing a lot right now. One is called ConvertFlow, convertflow.com which is really, really good. The other one is right message. And both of the technologies are relatively the same. They're a pop-up technology that happens in your website, except for they're integrated in with your marketing automation solution and they also track a lot of what's going on on the website. So you can provide real time personalization to the website based upon what people clicked or what people did. And for anybody who follows the B2B space, there's like these drift chat bots.Dan:So if somebody comes to the site, a pop-up comes up, what is your goal today? Did you want to see a demo? Do you want to see this? Do you want to see this? People click on it. And then only the chat bot is able to control like what happens next. The difference with these technologies, specifically ConvertFlow is that when those types of things come up, you can click on something, it will drive you different places on the website, but it can also change the headline copy of the page. It can also change like things that are happening. So if somebody comes back, it can be like, "Welcome back, Dan. We hope that we were able to help you in your last visit. Last time you left off, you were looking at socks, let's go look at socks again, right? Or is there something else we can help you find?"Dan:And then of course you could constantly be contextually changing the experience for that user. For us, ConvertFlow has one of the most powerful engines to it and it's super cheap. These two twins created the platform, super, super cool guys, but they're really good at that. And then the flip side would be right message, which right message is more of a kind of a chatbot-esq. It doesn't change your websites, but it does constantly provide you personalization to push people down the funnel based upon what they sent.Stephanie:Cool. Like how many tests should a company be running to see what works and then how much should they pull it back and narrow it down to?Dan:Yeah, man, you should be running tons of tests. I mean, there's a linear line between the number of tests that you run and as well as the growth that you can create at a company. So I would just say you should run as many as you possibly can, that you can hit statistical significance with, speaking of which we have a tool for that. If you Google AB testing calculator Chrome extension, go check it out. It'll help you know if you have statistical significance. But yeah, I mean really, you should be running tests all the time. You shouldn't be launching anything that's not a test in our opinion. That's a big part of our business.Dan:So companies like Hydro, we run all of their AB Testing experiments and we're always running tests, right? So like for me, you should not be doing anything unless you're testing it. The thing that I would just add as a caveat of that is you have to have enough traffic to run the test. You have to hit statistical significance and you have to know what you're doing from a data perspective because false positives, I lost a company $125,000 in 24 hours because I had a false positive. I made a mistake. Luckily, this was a long time ago, but-Stephanie:What was the false positive? Tell me the story, or backstory of that.Dan:Yeah. I mean, a great problem that you have is that people only focus on one metric. So when you create an AB test, the test, I worked at a company called codeschool.com. Going back to that developer centric company, we were an online education company for developers. We created an experiment called the summer school campaign or summer camp campaign. And I had optimized the AB test for sign-ups and then purchases. The problem was we didn't optimize the test for lifetime value. Lifetime value was 75% less on the winner of the test. So we saw an immediate increase in conversions. We got super, super excited, come to find out that those users were 75% less valuable based upon that test.Dan:So there's a thing known as you have to basically reverse look at tests. So when they've been running for two months, go back and look at that to see if it hurt lifetime value, it hurt retention, anything like that. But we basically had just wrote a headline, which wasn't 100% percent true to the developer. Like it wasn't 100% in line, so they wound up churning after their first I think it was two months. The other users who didn't see that headline stuck around for like six months. So it was just-Stephanie:Okay. So was the headline, it made them think it was something that it wasn't where they came in-Dan:Yeah.Stephanie:Okay, got it. Yeah.Dan:That's what the developer said that we manipulate people and it was like, no, we just had a misalignment in regards to what we wrote. I wasn't trying to manipulate somebody, but either way, that's marketing.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, to me, that's just always a good reminder that all of this is a long game and anything that's focused on like a quick hit and trying to pique someone's interesting and get them in, it's probably not going to work out long-term.Dan:And if anybody knows of Kissmetrics, that was the whole reason why the company went out of business and got sold to a private equity firm is there was too many people at the leadership level that were focused on quick hits and it's what put us out of business. You got to focus on, you've got to have a good mix of short-term and long-term focus and why we've been so successful and are still successful even at our company and our clients, we focus on the longterm as much as we do on the short term.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. Very cool. So when thinking about marketing and all these data attributes that you can have on your customer, how do you think about a, sorry, a potential cookieless world?Dan:Oh, it doesn't bother me at all. Cookies, whether you like it or not, the cookie is not going to die. It's third-party cookies they're talking about which are going to die. It's not first party cookies. The problem that people don't understand is we've already come up with millions of solutions to create better first-party cookies, if I could talk, better first-party cookies, which we hide third-party cookies behind. So I mean, we just had a whole debate about this last week.Dan:Cname cloaking and proxies and all this stuff. There's already a ton of ways to kind of hide it and change it. The cookie's not dying. It's just the way that the cookie gets used is what they're saying is going to die. But cookieless world is going to happen. Is it necessarily going to be ... I almost want to say it's a false or that the cookie is going to die because you can't completely kill a cache in a user's browser about what we know about the user or you'll break the internet.Dan:And the internet is not prepared to completely get rid of all those technologies, so there's always going to be a hack around it. So we have a technology called utm.ao that we use for campaign tracking. So if anybody out there uses UTMs, they have a stupid UTM spreadsheet. We solve that problem. But the real problem is that the technology is now making it so that before you even before you even get to the website, we know who you are. So that's all going to be passed to the website through URL parameters, and there's all kinds of hokey stuff there. So I guess like I'm not that stressed, if that makes any sense.Stephanie:So why are other people so stressed? Because I listened to different ad tech podcasts and other marketing shows. And I mean, there's been so many conversations where people are stressing about it. So why are you so chill about it then and they are so worried?Dan:Yeah. Well one, if you're an ad tech company, Apple's out to cut your throat, right? Like there's just no way around it. Facebook is in a complete battle with Apple, which I think one, Apple is totally doing this for a promotional stunt because their job is to own your data, right? Like don't let them fool you, they know every single thing you do and they hold it on. It's the reason why they're one of the most valuable companies in the world is they know every single action you do. So for a Facebook, it's definitely really, really concerning because they have to be able to get companies like, and I'll just use one of our clients, King's Wine to figure out how to do Cname cloaking and proxy changes and stuff like that, which is really, really hard.Dan:But if you're using myself as like your consulting firm, like that's our job is to figure that stuff out and to solve those problems for you and to deal with it. So I guess like for me, I'm not stressed because that's what we do. But for the ad companies, like how the hell did they get everybody else to know how to do that, right? They've got to teach mission.org how to load a advertising pixel in this certain way and there's no way that mission.org is going to figure that out unless they hire me. So that would be the reason why there's the big difference is I actually know how it works. Most people have no idea how any of this stuff works.Stephanie:Yeah. Okay. Well that's good then. So then no one has to be worried and just hire someone who can help you, sounds like the gist of it.Dan:The general thesis of it. And it's expensive. It's a lot of service that stuff. So I mean, the problem is that 95% to 98% of the internet is not going to be able to understand it or fix it and that's where a lot of people are really panicking on how do we get this done? But there's always a hack.Stephanie:Yeah. And a certain point though, I wonder if Apple is going to have to change the way they do things. I mean, I know that they have been like ruling the market for a long time, but I see now that they're trying to get into something like podcasting and they have big competitors out there who already know how to do podcasts advertising, and they know how to show the dynamic ads and actually showcase metrics to the advertisers. There's so much competition when it comes to that. I can see Apple having to change the way they do things and provide more data and show the ROI instead of being like the black box of like yeah, just put it on here and it's in your best interest because we're a big platform.Dan:Yeah. Well, we have to remember that they did invent the pod cast and that came from the iPod. But they're allowed to, I mean, I think when you have that dominance, you're allowed to be slow to things. I mean, when we think back, I used to run a bunch of mobile app companies and like they sucked at giving us data about the mobile app. So we had to figure out all these other things. But when you're the gateway to the rest of it, right, when you're the heroine of the drugs, you can be a little late to solving your problems and that's unfortunately how Apple is. So they're going to be late to the party, but when they step on the throat of anybody else, they make changes. And I think the easiest way to think about it, does anybody remember the QR code? And it hasn't gone anywhere, but all the QR code apps, there's none of them, they're gone because it's part of your camera now. So when-Stephanie:It's funny how you forget about that. Like I remember being like, "Oh, which QR code app is the best one that I need?" And it's like, they're all the same, just pick one.Dan:And now none of them are around, just like the calculator apps. And like when Apple wants to ... And in our business, one of the things that we try to help our customers figure out and this is something I hope all of your podcast people listen, if you've never read the book, Crossing The Chasm, it's a really, really good read. But you have what's known as basically these innovators, which are out front. Most innovators die, right? They just don't live forever. And what we've recommended to our clients is be the early majority, right? Don't be the person always out trying to be a hipster because then you wind up finding out that like, hey, this stupid business idea blows up. I mean, I was put out of business one time by Facebook changing a feature like, oh my God, I can't believe Facebook changed a feature I went out of business.Dan:There's definitely things that other big companies, when you build on their platform, you have to be aware of that if they just decide to get into that space, you could go out of business or you could not have a feature which your business is around. So we always recommend people don't always try to be the innovator, wait for there to like be something solid, wait for something to be proven, wait for something to be figured out. Because if you're always going from the next hot flip to the next hot flip, and you're always a hipster, you're going to spend 10X more money than I am, and I'm going to still make the same amount of money if not more than you and that's always fascinating.Stephanie:Yeah. I also recommend that book and it's come up a few times on here. It's a really good one. I mean, how do you think about companies relying on a platform? Because I see so many brands right now just launching on Amazon, for example, and not even worrying about building out their own website presence or even developing their own community. Like how do you think about that?Dan:Well, I think my opinion would be different if they would have been doing that 15 years ago. Right. But if you've ever read the book, The Everything Store About Jeff Bezos, just understand he is coming for your throat too. I mean, they're just like Apple. If you read what they did to the book publishing industry, I'm like, "Holy crap. Wow, they completely gutted that industry." So for now I mean, there's not much you can do about it. You have to play with it. But I think it's definitely imperative that you create your own online presence. And I think this is where Shopify is trying to come fill a void is there is definitely, you have to do both at the same time because at any time Amazon is just going to come out with Amazon basic of your product and you're done. They've done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times.Dan:So you do have to build your own kind of side sliver as a brand. And I think the best book that I think I've ever read, which made me understand not only my childhood and why I am the way I am as an adult is the book Antifragile.Stephanie:Yeah. You seem to love them.Dan:Yeah. It's such a great book. But you have to have optionality and if you put all of your cards on Amazon, well, you don't have any optionality. And I think creating those options is a huge business. I mean, I read 42 books last year. So we want to get into like talking about all the cool things I learned just last year on that stuff. But optionality is huge. I think it's really, really important.Stephanie:Yeah, we've had a great guest on from, let's see, it was Taylor Holiday from, I think something collective. I can't remember what his company was, but he said, "You need to figure out how you can basically win even when you're wrong." So like when your models are wrong, which to me I'm like, "Yeah, you're talking about being anti fragile and making sure that you won't fail, even if your models set you in the wrong direction, how can you still benefit and have upside?" Which I thought was really interesting to frame it that way.Dan:Yeah. And I think in regards to the platforms and I'll try to bring this back to like the marketing technology platforms, there's a lot of optionality that you can look at and you need to have a backup plan to your backup plan in regards to marketing technology tools. I mean, Marketo got bought by Adobe and that's going to revolutionize the way their product works. And I mean, there's a lot of things in Marketo that suck already and Adobe buying it just means that it's going to slow down, right?Dan:So you have to be prepared to be able to say, "What's my backup plan to Marketo? And if I was to switch, what is that going to take?" And that's one reason why we recommend a lot of companies to leverage customer data platforms because it makes switching easy, but then you run into the same problem. Well, if you have a customer data platform and all of my data goes to the CDP, well, what happens when that CDP gets acquired? Right. What happens when Twilio buys Segment for 3.2 billion? How does that change my ... what's going to happen to the CDP? So you just have to ask those questions, like what are my other options with these platforms when I choose it and how much am I baked into this tool? And if I lost this tool tomorrow, what would it take to replace it?Stephanie:Yeah, that's really good to have a mindset like that and be thinking about all angles. So really good. So from a general ecommerce standpoint, what kind of trends are you guys preparing for in 2021?Dan:Well, first one, just going back, the death of the cookie.Stephanie:Or apparently you're not preparing at all and you're like, "I'm good."Dan:No, I mean, we started ... I mean, if Google the death of cookies McGaw.io and we wrote a blog post about this a year ago. So we've been tracking this for a long time. I think that the biggest thing that we are focused on, the biggest thing that we see in ecommerce right now, everybody wants to do multi-touch attribution. Everybody's trying to figure out how do they do multi-touch attribution to better align their return on ad spend. Because the key problem that you have is all these retailers are spending millions of dollars a year on advertising spend. And then if they look in Facebook, they see a conversion in Google, they see a conversion in LinkedIn or whatever the platform they see a conversion and they're attributing one sale to five different conversions. So they're really trying to say, "We understand that those five conversions we see in these different platforms or from one purchase, and we need to be able to pull that data together." So touch attribution is huge.Dan:We're extremely well-known in that space so a lot of companies are working with us on that, but every company is a unique snowflake for multi-touch attribution. Recommendation engines are probably the other thing that we see a lot of companies really trying to figure out. There's a cool technology called blue shift. Really, really good for ecommerce especially if you have thousands of products. They use machine, excuse me, machine learning to consume your catalog. And then also use machine learning to distribute that catalog as a recommendation to people based upon the best channel that suits them at the best time for them. Blue shift is crushes it. Great technology, Josh, the CMO or CGO, chief growth officer is a good buddy of mine.Dan:So we see a lot of the trend in regards, how do we make proper recommendations on the right channel at the right time with the right message. And then the last thing would just be customer data platforms. So those are the big three trends. I mean, one of the reasons why we're crushing it right now is like we know CDPs better than almost anybody else, customer data platforms. And customer data platforms, it's not a fad, it's not a trend. It really is the future on how you need to manage your data and your customer data specifically. So those would be the three big things that I would lean on for 2021 and going, especially into 2022.Stephanie:Cool. So you were just mentioning channels. What kind of channels are you guys most bullish on right now? Maybe are there any new ones out there? We've had a lot of people mention TikTok. You and I were talking about Clubhouse earlier. Is there anything that you guys are kind of shifting your focus towards and trying out?Dan:Oh, I love TikTok. Man, they tried to hire me as a brand ambassador and I so wanted to do it, but we had to turn it down and I love TikTok. I spent so much time on there. It's ridiculous.Stephanie:I do too. It's great.Dan:I think TikTok is great, a really, really cheap channel, but you got to learn how to do it, but it's a harder curve so I think that's good. I think that there's a lot of ... YouTube, oh my God, YouTube, YouTube, YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. We haven't even hit how valuable YouTube is. I mean, they're going to be ridiculous. So I think between those two channels, figuring out video is going to be really, really important for companies across the channels with TikTok and YouTube. I think if you can't figure that out in the next five years, you're really going to struggle. There's a cool tool called Fleeq, F-L-E-E-Q.com, which will help you do that for video. So I think YouTube and TikTok are huge if you want to be successful. I think there are some other really surprising ones. Like I always try to tell people you should invest more in Bing. Bing's really cheap. I always think that's always really, really good.Stephanie:I haven't heard Bing yet. That's a new one. Okay.Dan:Yeah. It's just so cheap. Not as much volume, but just the per dollar comparison is good. And the last one that I'll just say is direct mail. Like, oh my gosh, it's so cheap.Stephanie:What are you guys doing in direct mail right now? Because that was also something I've brought up a couple of times of like so many people are now at home and I am delighted when I get mail that's not something spammy where I can actually look through a great catalog and like, oh, this is actually cool stuff. And I always mention the Trader Joe's pamphlet where I'm like, "They have really fun content that also sells their products as well." But it's, I mean, I look forward to that one. So how are you guys approaching the direct mail piece?Dan:Yeah, so depending upon what the integration ... I mean, there's a company called lob.com, which makes direct mail really, really easy. And we leverage autopilot as our automation tool and we've been able to, I mean, personalize tons of stuff. In regards to giving people recommendations, we are able to literally write text on the postcards saying the technologies they use through data enrichment. So there's a lot of stuff that you're able to do there, but we have to remember is like sending somebody a thank you card or a birthday card in the mail as direct mail like happy birthday. It's your birthday coming up soon. Right? Like that's not hard, but people love it. And with COVID, I think the best quote that I had somebody say to me into COVID, the most exciting part of my day is walking to the end of my driveway and collecting my mail. And I was like, "What?"Dan:So I think it's just a great medium to use. And if you build it as part of your automated personalization journey, I mean, once again, you don't have to know it's raining in somebody's area to send them direct mail. Right. But you can know that it's going to snow two weeks ahead of time or there's a good possibility, you could send them a coupon for snow boots. Right. Like I just, the options are endless. So yeah, I mean, I think it's great. Hey, you abandoned your cart and you left these three things on and you print like three things on there. I mean, the personalization is really, really crazy and awesome.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. All right. So we have a quick lightning round brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Dan:Can I admit I'm scared? Yeah.Stephanie:You can admit it. Yes. All right. I'll start with the easier ones first. So you sound like a little bookworm. What are the next three books on your list?Dan:Oh, next three books. I don't know. I'm not prepared for that one. I think Atomic Habits-Stephanie:I usually ask one, but I'm like, "That's too easy for you." You have to tell me three.Dan:Yeah. I'm slacking on my book thing because I had a goal at the end of the year to hit 20 books and I demolished it. So I could probably say my last three books, but Atomic Habits, Billionaire Plan and Maverick. Those are the three books that I want to finish right now.Stephanie:Cool. Where are you traveling to next when we can travel again more easily?Dan:Oh, well that's an easy one. I fly to Snowshoe West Virginia and less than four weeks to go snowboarding again and I'm super excited for that trip. I traveled multiple times during COVID so-Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, I have too, but some people haven't. So if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Dan:We are in the process of creating a podcast of what we call The Stack and we'll be talking to VPs of marketing and CEOs about their marketing technology, sales technology and customer success technology. My first interview is hopefully going to be with mission.org and figuring out how you guys manage your marketing tech stack.Stephanie:All right. Yeah. Bring us on. And we also have a whole marketing trends podcast where we interview CMOs. So then we'll have to bring you on that one as well.Dan:I think that'd be great. I think it would be a lot of fun. This has been awesome. You are amazing at this. Good, good work. I thought this was fun.Stephanie:Thanks. Yeah. I mean, we talked about in the beginning, what was our line was just don't be generic. So I think that was a good motto of our interview. All right. Two more questions. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Dan:Nicest thing that anybody's ... My godfather took me for my first snowboarding lesson when I was like eight years old. It's the best memory I think of my entire life because it's something I've used forever.Stephanie:Oh, I like that. Alright. And then what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next few year? And it can't be the three things that you mentioned earlier.Dan:Oh, come on. The next biggest thing in ecommerce that's going to happen. Amazon will start to die. They're going to get ... I think Amazon is going to get split up because Jeff Bezos will want to do it. I think that's going to be one of the biggest things that happens in ecommerce in the next five to 10 years though. I don't know how long it's going to take, but I think that and Congress realizing that Amazon, they're too big.Stephanie:All right. Well, that's a good answer. I'm glad that I punted the other three so you had to think of a new one. All right, Dan. Well, this has been an awesome interview. Thank you for not being generic. Where can people find out more about you and McGaw.io?Dan:Yeah, so definitely you can go to McGaw.io, but I'm most active on LinkedIn, so go to LinkedIn and search up Dan McGaw. There's three of us, but you'll be able to find my pretty face. Go there and send me a connection request and play along. I've got over 25,000 followers there and I try to stay active.Stephanie:Amazing. All right. Thanks for joining us.Dan:Yeah, thanks so much. And the one thing I forgot, look up Build Cool Shit, my book which is all about how to build a marketing tech stack. If you go to McGaw.io, I'll send you a free copy. It's on the headline, but I forgot all about it. I have a book called Build Cool Shit. So I forgot that's-Stephanie:We will link it up. Don't you worry. Cool.Dan:Thank you very much.

Let’s get this out of the way now: most companies will not have someone go from intern to CEO in a matter of months. That’s a situation unique to James Standley and Solé Bicycles. What isn’t out of the ordinary, though, are the many challenges and hurdles that James and his team had to deal with when scaling Solé into the success it is today.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, James takes us through the trials and tribulations of the Solé journey, including various shipping and manufacturing disasters and lawsuits that nearly bankrupted the company, and he explains how he worked his way out of those troubles and what he learned along the way. Plus, he gives some secrets on what’s working well for Solé now, such as the strategy of finding different touchpoints to reach customers in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with selling to them. Main Takeaways:Starts With Heart: While the relationship with your supplier or manufacturer might seem like a cut-and-dry part of business, it has to go deeper than surface level. f you are working with overseas partners, taking the time to meet, and understand, the people you work with in person and form a relationship with them will carry you further and ease some pain if there are ever problems in the supply chain process.    What You’re Known For: Through unique partnerships and marketing opportunities, there is potential to reach people in different ways, even if that means you’re not necessarily selling them a product with every touchpoint. Having a relationship with customers is more important than selling to them at every opportunity, because if they know you for one thing and then find out you sell something else, they are more likely to buy from you across the board. Shot on an iPhone: There will always be a place for highly-produced, glossy marketing materials. But, more and more these days UGC and lower-budget content is what is resonating with consumers. As opposed to showing potential buyers something they have to aspire to, like a model, highlighting people and experiences that are familiar to them as they are now will convert better. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. This is Stephanie Postles and you're listening to Up Next in Commerce. Today on the show, we have James Standley. He's the president and founding partner at Sole bicycles. James, welcome.James:Hey, how are you guys doing?Stephanie:Doing good. Thanks for joining us.James:Yes, I'm super excited to talk about all things ecommerce with you guys.Stephanie:Yeah. I was just looking through your website and I am very excited to get a bicycle after this. I didn't even know I needed one, but now I do.James:Totally, totally, yeah. We have tons of great bikes and yeah, and tons of cool different colorways and options and a bike for just about anyone's kind of need.Stephanie:Awesome. Tell me a bit about how you started Sole. I think it was in college, right?James:Yeah. My business partners, that I ended up starting the business with and I, we met back, funny enough, my first venture, which was a music festival I helped start back in college. We were both partners in that.Stephanie:It was called the Coachella for the Mountains, right?James:Yeah. It was called Snowball, and the idea was Coachella meets on the mountains. Yeah, there was this guy, Chad Donnelley, who I knew through the lacrosse world. I played college lacrosse and he came up with the concept and I was always involved in music. Growing up, I was a concert pianist, and I had DJ'ed in college and been in bands growing up. We met through the lacrosse world, and he came up with this idea. He had reached out to me just to ask my opinion on the project and what I thought about it. At the time, I was a freshman in college and he was asking me about it and I ended up just going back to him and say, "Hey, I want to be a part of this. I think this is amazing."James:I was part of that initial team. We kicked off this event with ... Our first, we had Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeros, and Bassnectar, and Pretty Lights, and Diplo and all these amazing artists come out and sold like 15,000 tickets. It was a really cool first venture and a first event. Yeah, so Jake and John, my original founders with Sole, they were partners in it as well, and they helped get some of the money for the project. We met, first year was a huge success and we stayed in contact. At the same time, they were coming up with the idea for Sole, and going back that summer, between my freshman year and my sophomore year of college, they were looking for some additional help on Sole.James:I said I'd come in and I've got a more like operational financial sort of background or mind, and they were more of the creatives and the visionary type of people. I came in, helped clean things up. We got the business off the ground. Then going through the summer, they ended up going and raising some money and starting another business, and I ended up taking over the business. I went from being technically an intern in May to the CEO in August. Yeah, so that's how I got involved. Shoot, that was 2011. So, we're going on nine years ago, and I've been CEO ever since.Stephanie:Wow. Very cool. That's a wild story. How many bikes were you guys selling when you took over, and where are you at now? So I can get the scale of the company.James:Totally, totally. Yeah. Our first year we were featured on this big Forbes article and the business sort of took off, and I think we sold maybe a thousand bikes our first year, which was a lot for a first year business. This past year we're going to sell about 15,000 bikes.Stephanie:Wow.James:Yeah. We've grown quite a bit.Stephanie:That's great. What is the selling point of Sole bikes? How's it different?James:Totally, totally. Yeah, for us, our main selling point is you go look at the bike and it's just going to look different than any other bike you've ever seen before. We're really heavy on our marketing and design and colorways and wanted to make something that's really, really simple, easy to use, easy to maintain, but also looks really beautiful, and something that has a personality, and really people can relate to. I think a bicycle, for most companies, is more of a utility product, something that's really spec-driven.James:For us, we wanted to make something that people were really, really proud of, and it's like, they can relate to, and find a colorway that really matches their personality, or they could this store music fixed tapes or find these other ways that people can relate to the product. That's really allowed us to set ourselves apart from other bike brands.Stephanie:Cool. It seems like pricing is also a big thing. The one thing I've always thought is, why the heck are bikes so expensive? Why? How'd you get your guys cost down so much?James:Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. The biggest way we do it is we work directly with a manufacturer and we sell directly to our customers. Just the natural, by cutting out some of the normal distributors or middlemen, we're able to offer what would be a traditionally higher price point products for a lower price and pass those savings onto the consumer by selling direct.Stephanie:Tell me a bit more about that, because what did that look like finding a manufacturer? I think I saw you found, in the early days, your manufacturer on Alibaba. Right? Which I was like, oh, that's interesting because I feel like Alibaba ... I've been there before and there's a lot going on. There's a lot of people. It's hard to know who to trust, it's hard to know if they're going to send me something good. How did you guys go about finding a manufacturer there? Did it work out well? Give me some behind the scenes.James:Totally. Totally. Yeah. Our first, when we got the business kicked off, we actually were involved in this Ali-Baba business plan competition. Back when we were in college, Jake and John had applied for this business plan competition. They won it and we got a $15,000 grant from Alibaba. That grant or that money paid for them to initially go over, meet our first supplier who Alibaba had helped set up, and we got our first order of bikes in. That's what the initial financing that got the business kicked off. But over time, went through a few different suppliers and really had to iterate our process.James:I spent a lot of time over in China meeting with different suppliers, refining the product, getting it to a place where it is today. It took a lot of trips over there and a lot of refining.Stephanie:In the early days when you're picking your suppliers and manufacturers, what would you do differently this time around? What lessons did you learn or what things did you maybe stumble on in the early days that you can avoid if you were to redo it now?James:Totally. What I would recommend is, we got placed with the supplier via Alibaba, and we just worked with the first person we were placed with. I think we ended up switching a few different suppliers over time, but what really ended up getting us with a supplier that we were super happy with is we went over there, and I went to one of the big trade shows, and we ended up visiting another 15 or 20 during this trip I went on about year two or three, and that trip we ended up finding the supplier we worked with, still to this day.James:We really got to go out and meet these people and do your diligence and find the supplier that makes the most sense for you, and not just use the first one that you end up getting placed with or you end up meeting with. You got to go over there and develop a relationship with them. I mean, it's so important. They have this saying there. It's first, you drink tea, then you drink Maotai and then talk business. What I mean by that is, they want to meet you, the different suppliers and the different people over there want to meet you. They want to build a personal relationship, and then they want to talk business because it's so important there to have a personal relationship, as well as a business relationship.James:If you're going to try to source something from China or overseas, I'd recommend going over there and meeting these people and spending time with them, and learning, meeting them as people, and really developing a relationship, because that's going to help that business relationship over time and make a really, really strong business relationship.Stephanie:Yep. If you don't go and meet them and you didn't really do your due diligence, what kind of problems could a new company encounter? Did you encounter any issues in the early days with some of your suppliers that you stopped working with?James:Totally, totally. Yeah. The supply chain for a bicycle is pretty complex. For our product alone, there's over 50 parts. Those 50 parts come from 20 different other suppliers, and then those have to come into an assembler, the assembler puts the product together and then it's shipped over. There's a ton of different things that could go wrong. A good example would be we had one of our biggest shipments ever, at the time for the business. We had put in an order for summer, and it was like 2000 units. We had also set up a big sale online with a company called fab.com. At the time, they were having ... I don't know if you remember the company, fab.com, but they were one of the fastest companies to a billion dollar valuation, I think, and people were talking about it as the next Amazon.James:It was having this really big moment. We were selling really well on there. We partnered with them and we were like, hey, we're going to bring in a bunch of units. Let's have a really, really big sale. We have this massive sale. We sell like 1,500 to 2,000 units, pre-sell them, and ends up being the biggest sale ever on fab up to that point. So, do the sale, goods come in, and then we ship all the product out. Well, our manufacturer had packaged the bikes slightly incorrect to where ... The crank arm usually woven through the front wheel, which is detached, and then tucked to the side of the bike when it's shipped. They were all packaged slightly off that almost every single bike came with one of the spokes popped off.James:You get your brand new bike that you just bought offline, brand new, beautiful bike, you open it up, and one of the spokes popped off, which it's like ... You can't ride it, but it's a small problem, but it's not an easy problem to fix. Oh my gosh, that situation almost bankrupt us. What ended up happening we-Stephanie:What did you guys do?James:Yeah, we had the product on credit. We had given we had been sold the product on credit, so we went back to the supplier and we were like, hey, this is going to bankrupt us. We got to figure something out, and they refused to take any discount on it. Then, our advisor was like, "Hey, we're going to just hold payment until we get something settled." They ended up serving us a lawsuit. They came to America, served us a lawsuit.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.James:So we were served, and had to go through this entire ... Mind you, I'm like 21 years old at the time. I'm still in school. We get served a lawsuit. I'm like, oh my gosh, what is going on? So, we had to hire a lawyer who was our body. He was only like 30 and we didn't have a ton of money. We had to put together a case and actually go out and defend ourselves.Stephanie:Yeah, did you win?James:We go through this, and we hired this lawyer, and he's like, "Look, you guys don't have the money, [inaudible] afford me, so I'm going to teach you how to build this case." I went and actually built this timeline of everything that's happened, and we came up with a case theory and counter sued them. They responded and deposed me. I had to go through this 40 exhibit eight hour deposition. But we held our ground and got through it. After that, it got to the point where it was like, financially it made the most sense to settle and were able to settle for what ended up being about half off of what the original was. Yes.Stephanie:That's wild. I'm just imagining being in college, dealing with it. How was that experience being in college? I'm just thinking, all of a sudden, you have this company and you're having to go to China and now you're getting sued. What was the college experience like for you when you were having something very different than probably a lot of your peers go on?James:To be honest, it was really exciting. You felt like it was just so cool to be building something and going through this. We were so ignorant, I think, going through a lot of this stuff, which I think ended up actually helping us. It was just very shoot from the hip and like figure it out. Yeah, so many of these different scenarios could have totally bankrupt us or ended us, but I think it builds a lot of character by going through these different situations and surviving it and learning from it and growing from it. Yeah, it was exciting. It was really fun and exciting. The goal was just like, don't go bankrupt, don't die. Keep fighting and figure it out.Stephanie:That's good. I like that. I could see it also just making it seem like, well, what else ... Nothing can really scare me. I've gotten sued. I almost went bankrupt. There's nothing too scary out there after that. I think it's a good place to be.James:Yeah. I think it's part of building a business. You're going to face adversity and a lot of ... There's a reason nine out of 10 businesses fail. There's so many things that can go wrong with building a business, but you have to learn to embrace those challenges and know that you just got to fight through it. There's not always a way to figure it out, but there's oftentimes, if you keep working at it and keep fighting, you can find ways to get through these things. If you do get through them, these are like business cards, I guess you could say, or things that'll stick with you and you could grow and build on as you continue to build your business.James:After going through all this stuff over so many different situations over so many years, we've now learned to embrace the challenge and just know, hey, here there's going to be some new challenge, every year, there's going to be some new thing that's going to ... we're going to get hit with, and you just have to learn to embrace it and take it head on and not let it beat you up.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. You guys seem really good at partnerships. I've seen some of the very well-known companies that you work with, who they get their own custom bikes built, and you've got things with artists going on and music and all that. How do you how do you view that strategy in your playbook to be able to access new customers and new markets, and how do you even develop those partnerships?James:Totally, totally. A lot of that was built from, again, when we started the company, we weren't the traditional bike guys. We were coming from the music background and fashion background. A huge art scene. We had all these relationships early on, and just out of pure having those relationships, we intertwined it in business, and you have the fixed tape series, which one of our early employees was a professional DJ, so he's like, "Hey, I got this idea. Let's create an hour long mix to listen to while I'm riding our bike, and we'll go get some other DJ friends to do it." That piece of content. Just that, that we created that and it's been rolling ever since. We just launched the Sofi Tukker one, which was, I think our 76th mix tape.Stephanie:That's cool.James:Then that artist creates that mix, and some of these DJs are very globally known DJs. We posted on our SoundCloud and they showed on their SoundCloud, and it creates this nice piece of content that people can come back to and find Sole, or find that mix each month. It's funny because we're not ... you wouldn't think of us as a music business or a bike business, but there's people out there in the world that only know us as the fixed tape company. There are people who'll find out, they'll be like, "Oh my gosh, you guys sell bikes. I thought you were just the fixed tape company or something." It's just organic sort of different little marketing tricks that we've, or little tactics we've built over the years.James:They just are organic, unique way to reach new customers and relate with our customers. We do the different partnerships. Again, I'll use the Sofi Tukker example. They're a big DJ group. If you don't know them, they're a big DJ group, globally known. I think one other fun facts, I think they have a platinum record in every country in the world except Antarctica. They're pretty big and they're up and coming. They had a song that's called Purple Hat. One of the lines in the song is purple hat cheetah print. We thought, how cool would it be to make a purple hat, their purple cheetah print bike? So, we had connections.James:One of their agencies or marketing companies or whatnot. So, we were able to get a pitch in front of them and they were super stoked on it. Yeah, now we're selling purple hat cheetah print bikes. Again, it's a cool way to ... What other bike companies are selling purple cheetah print bikes? It's just a unique way to reach new customers and provide a unique product and put a cool product out in the world that no one else was doing. I think it's just thinking that way with the bike industry has allowed us to build up these partnerships and set ourselves apart from other bike companies.Stephanie:Yeah. When you're doing these partnerships, these partners can also sell it on their website. Right? So, it's not all being sourced back to your website as a central hub. You're essentially letting these partners also sell the bikes on their websites as well. Right?James:Totally, totally. Yeah. For each partnership's bespoke and different in their own way. Sometimes like, we did a partnership with Wildfox, which is a women's centric fashion brand. We did these like really beautiful floral prints all over a bicycle. They took them in and they sold them through all their retail shops, as well as their partner wholesale shops, as well as their website, and we sold on our website. There's a bunch of different ways we can structure it. But yeah, it's usually just bespoke to whatever that partnership is.Stephanie:Well, that's a good segue into, I mean, when you're thinking about, you've got these mixed tapes going out and partnerships that aren't anywhere close to like the biking industry, how are you tracking conversions? Is your goal to try and get people to listen to these mixed tapes and then come back and buy bikes? Or how do you think about what your goals are around these different projects that you're doing?James:Totally, totally. With the fixed tapes, I think we're trying to push out a certain amount of content each month and each quarter. Then we go out and we build content calendars around what are different initiatives that we can tap into? I think when we're thinking about content, we like to look and start with email. Email is like one of our highest converting marketing channels. We're constantly filling and adding to our email list, and then from there, we're trying to push out two to three emails a week. We're mapping out our email pushes. We say, what are the different content initiatives that we can tap into? So, we try to do a fixed tape every two months. We try to do artist series every quarter and large-scale partnership once or twice a year.James:We map out all these different things we're trying to do, and then we funnel, and then that leads into email. With email, where you can't really just send very bland marketing type style emails every month. You're not going to get good engagement. So, we have to create stuff that's engaging. I think we've just gotten so good at creating this stuff very cost-effectively that it ends up paying for itself through the conversions of email. It's also a great brand building. They're all great brand building initiatives, and they all kind of build on themselves.James:If I do a big large-scale partnership with like a Sofi Tukker, that's going to come back and open up new opportunities down the road for other potential brands, or other potential artists. It's sort of all builds on itself as we go bigger and bigger.Stephanie:When you're talking about emails really high, when it comes to converting customers, how do you think about creating that engaging content? What pieces of content are working or what emails work best?James:I think one of them more interesting fun little emails that we came up with years ago and it's like the easiest thing [inaudible] to create ever, is we do what we call Sole Saturday. Sole Saturday, it's one photo by the Sole team and then three user-generated photos. Every bike we ship out has a little tag on it that says tag at Sole bicycles hashtag, and you use hashtag of the bicycle for a chance to be featured.James:Then, what we do is as we're spelling product, customers are going out and taking photos for us, and every Saturday we feature three of our customers. That, again, it's just like ... we're using user generated content and it's creating a nice email that people can go back to and see if they're featured. It's actually very high converting as well.Stephanie:That's fine. Do you think having actual customers and photos is where a lot of brands are going to be headed, less about the models and the people who look perfect and more about ... Is this someone who reminds me of myself and I can see myself riding that bicycle, yeah, feeling a better connection with them?James:Totally, totally. It's funny you say that. Because even when you look at ... you go to our paid spend or paid marketing, a lot of times the [inaudible] produced sort of content where it's on a really ... Get a really expensive content creator to produce it and it looks very professional, versus like content that's shot on iPhone or content that's just shot with customers' photos. That ends up converting a lot better than the higher produced stuff. I think that's just the people can relate more to it.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. What kind of channels are you putting that content or the more natural looking content that your customers are creating? What channels are you finding are working best right now to convert customers?James:We're constantly testing when we're doing Facebook and Instagram ads. I've been serving different type of ads to different audiences on Facebook and Instagram with different types of content, the more professionals type of content versus the more just shot from iPhone vibe. Even like, over the last year, we've had a big uptick on our online business because of COVID, and people being at home and wanting to find a way to get outside and escape from this madness.James:One of the craziest things that we found was iPhone ads or the story ads-specific, so had to build just enough format for iPhones were converting at like crazy, crazy higher row ads versus just more static or traditional images or ads on the Facebook or Instagram. That was like a crazy thing we came up on this year.James:There's a very beautiful, simple ad where it's just like the bike on the beach and you have the sky in the background and then the sand below it. Then just the brand and a little copy below it. That little ad actually absolutely killed it for us this year.Stephanie:That's great. Are you still using, maybe not that ad, but still putting new ads into the story section on iPhones?James:Yeah. I recommend any brand out there that's doing ... I mean, I've been learning a lot of this as we go and trying to get better at it, but when you're creating your ads on Facebook and Instagram for when you're setting that ad up, you can actually split it so that it's like, you have this certain photo for the stack set up and then you have a different photo for when it's served on story. My biggest eyesore, or I hate is, when you're on a story and you get an ad, and it's like an ad that's built for the display. So, it has the kind of squared picture and then it has the words under that.James:I don't know if you guys have seen that, but it's such an eyesore to me compared to a beautiful ad that's like really built for the stories. Just making sure that you have the ad set, the story specific ads, it'll help your conversion so much. That's helped us a ton.Stephanie:Yeah, that's a really good point. What kind of return on spend should a brand expect from the iPhone story ads versus maybe Instagram or Facebook or Tik-Tok.James:That's a tough question. I think it's specific to the brand and the product they're selling, and then, even the time of the year. For us right now, our ROAS is way lower than like the middle of summer. It's almost like a 10th of what it was during the summer. That's just because it's seasonality, our product. We saw specific ... static first story during the summer, I think it was converting 3 or 4X of what it was static. But that's specific to us. I think every brand is different, every product's different. But yeah, I think that can give you an idea of the potential.Stephanie:Yeah, very cool. Is there any other new marketing channels that you're trying out, that you're like, I'm not sure if this will work, but we are allocating some funds here to try this out?James:No, for now we're focusing just on Facebook, Instagram. We're doing Google AdWords and media retargeting. I want to dip my toes in some other things. I want to try the Tik-Tok and I want to try some Pinterest. I've heard about the Tik-Tok, but the tracking is not that great on it. We haven't done anything yet. Also, Tik-Tok's I think for a little bit lower age or younger demographic than what our target audience is, so we haven't tried-Stephanie:I don't know. We've had a lot of people on here saying Tik-Tok works well. That originally, it was just the dancing videos and younger people and all that. People are like, it seems like there's still a good arbitrage opportunity on Tik-Tok right now, because the attribution and tracking might be worse, but you still get a lot of the benefit of going onto a new platform before they increase the pricing and actually understand what kind of conversions they're hitting. I don't know, [crosstalk] to check out.James:Totally, totally. There we go. That's my takeaway from this. We'll give it a go. We'll give it a go.Stephanie:Yeah, give it a whirl and see. When new customers are coming on your website, I want to talk a bit about like, how do you guide them through the funnel? How do you personalize things and show them, not only content, but also maybe a bike that would work for them or that might peak their interest?James:Totally. Totally. It's an interesting ... there's a few things we do. We have about our bikes page, where it's like, which Sole are you? That walks them through the different, we have like six different models. You have the single-speed fixed gear, you have the City Bike, you have the Dutch Step through, you have the three speed City Bike, and then you have the Coastal Cruiser. Top Bar and Coastal Cruiser are down and slanting more. We have a page that we'll walk the customers through the difference between all of those and the pros and the cons of each of those. That can explain the style.James:Then once you know the style, what we do different than maybe other companies is we actually ... Each product, each colorway has its own product variant versus like, you may go see a single-speed version of one of our competitors and they keep all the colors on one product page. We create the personality and each colorway has its own personality and its own page. It really helps customers, like okay, I like the red bike, and see the lifestyle on it, and just for that red bike. The red bike would be [inaudible] for a walk and it's got its own story, help the customer really fall in love with that product, and tell a story around each of them, versus them all being bundled up on the one page.Stephanie:That's great. Very cool. Then, I was seeing a couple of retail stores that you were partnering with, probably pre-COVID, but it seems like there'd be a really good opportunity to have those partners also kind of market and share for you while they're getting in front of their own new customers as well. It seems like they would kind of take on the budget, the marketing budget to then share your brand under their brand, if that makes sense.James:Totally, totally, totally. Yeah. We're seeing a big uptick with like these online third party wholesalers and distributors. That's been, for us, I think our product, it's got such a great look and feel to it that it can transcend from, not just traditional sporting goods or traditional bike-centric channels. We can sell on sites like an Urban Outfitters or on Zola, or some of these other more lifestyle driven sites that want a cool lifestyle product in the bike space.James:That's one of our big initiatives that we're trying to get on more of these like third-party digital wholesaler channels, because in the last year, what we've seen the biggest takeaway from all this is like, everything is going digital much faster than it was prior to COVID.Stephanie:Yep. Are those partners showcasing your brand? Are they more white labeling, like ordering the bikes and then putting under their brand to say, okay, this is an Urban Outfitters bike, or are they actually saying no, this is Sole [crosstalk 00:33:32].James:Yeah, we're selling us as Sole. Yeah, we're selling us Sole through these third parties.Stephanie:That's good. That's awesome. How are you getting in front of these big partners? Urban Outfitters is huge and super popular. How did you even get in front of them and convince them to partner with you guys to sell your bikes?James:Yeah, just cold email them. Right?Stephanie:I hear you cold emailing. Tell us your secrets. Come on, James.James:Very easy. Yeah, we'll go out there. If we believe our product could fit in someone's store or someone's space, then we'll hit them up. We're very confident in our product and our brand and we'll sell them on it. It works a ton. Then there's other partners that have reached out to us and want us to work with them. I think, a good example we were connecting ... Target reached out to us and we've just recently started selling on Target's website, which I think is ... It's interesting with them. Target's trying to, in each of their product categories, bring a more 21st century brand in. I think like we really fit that really lifestyle driven 21st century brand for a product.James:Normally, there's not a lot of brands in the space that have that kind of fit. I think we really fit those as well. That's an exciting one for us. Then, like I said, the Zola. Zola's a massive, or one of the biggest wedding registry sites. We're one of the only bike brands on there as well, and do really, really well on there.Stephanie:Ooh, that's a good angle. I wouldn't think to put a bike on a wedding registry website, but that's awesome, because a lot of times it's just the same old, same old. You're like, I don't need more plates, but I can go for a bike. I would put on my registry.James:We sell so many likes there. You'd be really, really surprised. It's a great wedding gift. We have a his and hers, so almost every single order that goes there, it's two bikes, obviously.Stephanie:Yeah. That's awesome. Really good strategy. How are you keeping up with fulfillment in the backend? Especially when you're integrating all these partners like Target and Urban Outfitters, what happens if target has a big surge and they've got a bunch of traffic come to their website, and all of a sudden, you've got 500 bike orders? How are you guys keeping up behind the scenes to make sure that you don't go out of stock or have issues on the backend?James:Totally, totally. This was something that this year that we've invested a lot of time and energy and effort into, is leveraging technology to make sure all of this stuff runs super smooth. We're using a third party warehouse that has their own systems. Then, we have to use an EDI software or partner to connect to a lot of these systems. It's just spending the time, energy and effort to really automate all this stuff and make sure all these systems talk to each other, and there's inventory pushes going out multiple times a day. You put in the front end work to automate all this stuff so that you can avoid those problems.James:There's systems that say, hey, there's inventory pushes that happen multiple times a day to all these systems, so if there's a big spike on say Target, that inventory is removed and pushed out to the other channels so that there's no overselling or minimal over selling. That still happens a little bit here and there because the inventory pushes don't go out all the time. It's a couple times a day, but yeah, it's just about leveraging. There's a ton of technology out there, like using the technology to your advantage to automate the stuff.Stephanie:What are some big bets that you guys at Sole are making over the next couple of years? Where do you think the bicycle market is headed? What are some things that you're betting on that you're not sure if they're going to pay off or not over the next couple of years?James:Yeah, totally. I think it goes back to digital. We're super focused on digital right now and we're super bullish on digital. We're investing in this technology to make sure that we're set up the scale and then we want to continue to expand where we're selling and who we're selling in front of. Then, on top of that, it's continuing to expand how we market our product and where we market our product and the media partners we can use to get in front of these different people. I think the biggest thing ... People having a stay at home as a result of COVID has set all these new habits. I think they say like, it takes three weeks to set a habit, and what? We've all been at home since April.James:Everyone's having to shop from shop online and shop at home. Once we come out of COVID, those habits, I don't think are going to go away. For us, we're super bullish on making sure we have a really solid foundation with, not only our website, but the online e-retail partners that we're selling through so that, as we come out of COVID, we continue to have really strong distribution digitally to the future.Stephanie:Yep. I could see some of the retail partners leaning on you guys also for maybe advice and best practices. I've seen some of the bigger companies kind of looking at, not that you're a startup, but looking at startups, looking at people who are able to be agile and move quickly, and trying to figure out like, well, what are you guys doing? Tell us what are the best practices right now, because what we've been doing for the past couple of years was just thrown up into the air and we have to rewrite how we do things now. So, do they ever hit you up and be like, "Hey James, how should we set this up? Or how are you guys doing this so we can replicate this?"James:Totally. No, no, no. There's always like other people in the industry that we're talking to. There's always people that we ... Whether it's people in the bike industry or other businesses, other friends that have businesses. Again, always happy to talk with them. For us, you say that we aren't a startup, we are a startup. We've been doing this for 10 years, I still feel like it's a startup. Our team's still pretty lean. There's only 10 of us. We're super nimble and able to move quick, which is great and allowed us to pivot and make changes when things like COVID happened, that bigger companies can't do.James:Once we find successes, we can double down and grow on those. Yeah, we're staying nimble and going with the flow and learning quick. Yeah.Stephanie:That's great. All right, cool. Let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, James?James:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. Stephanie:What is your favorite business book that you think about or refer back to [crosstalk 00:40:28]?James:It's not a business book per se, but it is You Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins.Stephanie:Oh, okay. I like that. I actually have not heard of that. I don't think.James:The quick hitter on it, it's about overcoming adversity and pushing yourself. I think that's so important in business is understanding that you can overcome adversity and always setting your bar higher and higher. Again, it's not technically a business book, but I think there's ton of good business lessons you can learn from it.Stephanie:I like that. That sounds good. I'll have to check it out. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who is your first guest be?James:Oh my gosh. If I were to have a podcast, I would talk about ... Personally, my favorite thing outside of business and bicycles is traveling. I would do a travel blog and my first guess would be, Oh my gosh, I would pick Barack Obama.Stephanie:There you go. I'd listen to that. That sounds good. What is the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?James:Oh my gosh. The nicest thing that anyone has ever done for me. The nice thing, oh, this is big.Stephanie:Heavy.James:My friend, Mario and Ken, in the early days when we started up our USC shop, these guys would come out every year and work for back to school, which is our craziest time of year for that shop. We sell like a thousand bikes in two weeks, and they would come out and stay at my place, crash on my floor and help us every year for the first four years. So, shout out to Mario and Ken.Stephanie:Oh, that is really nice. That's a good answer. What trend or tech do you not understand today that you wish you did?James:What trend or tech? Tik-Tok.Stephanie:There you go.James:I don't get it, but I feel like I need to get it.Stephanie:Okay. I've had some other people say that as well, so you're in good company. Others don't also do not understand it. All right. Then the last bigger one. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year? It can't be COVID because we've had too many people say that.James:I think the big thing impact on ecommerce, I think it's going to be shipping. I feel like shipping is going to change drastically over the next one to five years. You have like Amazon starting to do their drones. We're starting to see in LA these little robots that are delivering food. Then, on top of that, FedEx and UPS are just killing everyone with all their fees and their pricing. We've been in peak surge charges since July. I just feel like there's so much potential for disruption there, shipping.Stephanie:Yep. Oh, that's a good answer. Yeah, I agree. I see a lot of companies, a couple of them actually are in Canada who are trying to get one and two day shipping. I think a lot of more companies will be leaning into that once they figure out how to make that work, and they also see how reliant they are on the FedExs, the UPSs, and how much it disrupts businesses.James:Totally, totally. Please someone come out here, please help us [inaudible 00:43:54], it's so expensive to ship bikes.Stephanie:Well, maybe James, that can be your next business. You've done a lot in your day. You might as well just start a shipping company as well.James:There we go. There we go.Stephanie:All right, James. Well, thanks for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Sole bicycles?James:Totally. You can check us out at solebicycles.com, or our Instagram, which we update daily, @solebicycles, and then my personal is @JimmyStans.Stephanie:All right. Thanks so much.James:Thank you guys so much. Appreciate it.

How to succeed on Amazon is a mystery that many DTC brands have tried and failed to solve. There are tricks to winning on the mega ecommerce site — tricks that no one tells you when you first put your product up for sale in the Amazon jungle. That’s why we’ve invited Ju Rhyu on the show. There were a lot of things that Ju wished she knew before she and her co-founders decided to launch Hero Cosmetics on Amazon. Things like what is brand gating? And how do you win the buy box? And what do you do about counterfeit products that pop up right when you start to have a little success?Ju found the answers to all of those questions and learned so much more as she grew Hero into one of the buzziest skincare brands on the market, which went from 0 to $1 million in year one,  and now not only sells on its website and on Amazon, but is also featured in retailers like Target, Madewell, CVS Pharmacy and more.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Ju spills the beans on what it takes to win big on Amazon, and how you can level up from there.Main Takeaways:Boxing Out Your Opponent: On Amazon, the first steps to success are winning the buy box and brand gating. It takes time, but if you take the steps to prove that you are the true owner of your product or IP, you’ll be able to avoid much of the pain that comes with selling on Amazon.If You Build It, They Will Come: Getting your product into retail locations is a mix of luck, perseverance, and creating your own destiny. Relentlessly pitching your product to anyone who will listen, and then jumping on trend-seeking retailers is a strategy to get your foot in the door. Also, having a PR strategy to build buzz may help drive interest in your brand. Far Out Future: Because 2020 accelerated the adoption of ecommerce, DTC brands are in a position to set the stage for where business is headed. From bike delivery to the creation of a DTC mall, Ju has a lot of predictions on what to look out for down the road.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello and welcome back to up next in ecommerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder at mission.org. Today on the show we have Ju Rhyu the co-founder and CEO of Hero cosmetics. Welcome.Ju:Thank you. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:Yeah. I'm really excited that you took the time to call in from Paris. That's so fancy when I say Paris, maybe you're like, this is normal for me, but you feel fancy.Ju:It was a fun fact that I tell people, "Oh, by the way, I live in Paris."Stephanie:So tell me a little bit about Hero. I would love to hear the founding story of how you started it. I mean, it has tons of news coverage and I was reading so many different stories. And I want to hear from you though about how you came to found it.Ju:I mean, the story is I was living in Korea. I was working there as an expat in Seoul, South Korea, and I was suffering from adult acne. I don't know exactly what was causing it. Maybe it could have been the changing environment, the lower air quality change in lifestyle, or maybe stress, I'm not sure. I was really frustrated because I kept breaking out and it was always just hard for me to find a solution that worked for me. But in Korea I noticed a lot of people walking around with these acne patches on their faces. So I got really curious. I went to a pharmacy, I bought some, and then I was just amazed at how well it worked because it sucked everything out and protected me from touching the area and picking at it.Ju:It was really gentle on my skin. And then I immediately started wondering why I was learning about it then, and not like 15 years ago and why it wasn't more available in the US so I did some research and then that's when the idea of like, Hey, I should make this available in the US I think people would really like it.Stephanie:That's so cool. I mean, it seems like Korea, all the beauty trends right now are coming from there, everything when it comes to double cleansing and [inaudible]Ju:Well, the 12 step regimen.Stephanie:Yes. I try to follow the 12 step regimen. And I got a little overwhelmed. I'm like, Oh, this is a lot to clean my face. So you found this product in Korea. What did you do next? How did you have the idea? Because a lot of people find other products in other countries. I know, I at least have, or my oldest T brands really good, or Oh, this hammock is really good, whatever it may be. And I don't always think, I'm going to bring this back to the States and do this. So what were your next steps? Why was this the product that you wanted to bring back and start?Ju:First of all, for me, it solved a real problem that I was struggling with it worked better than anything else I had ever really used. And I just got to thinking if this is helping me, this could probably help a lot of other people state side as well. And then actually in Korea, when, if you're a cosmetics manufacturer or distributor, you're obligated to print the name of the manufacturer on the back of your package, that is not true in the US actually. And so the first thing that I did was I started contacting these patch manufacturers to see how much it would cost to buy them from them, how the manufacturing side would work. If they could work with me to develop something that I thought would be suitable for the US market. So I went to a bunch of pharmacies. I bought up a lot of packages. I looked at the backs of the boxes to see who the manufacturers were. And then I started my outreach.Stephanie:What were some of the biggest surprises when you're reaching out to these manufacturers?Ju:I mean, a lot of them didn't return my calls or my emails. I don't blame them. I mean something like random person contacting them about buying up a much of their patches for a business idea that was still very nascent. And so that was a little bit frustrating, but there were a few that did reply to and then there was a little bit of a language barrier just because I mean, I'm Korean American living and I was living in Korea. But my Korean isn't totally fluent. And so a little bit of a language barrier, but I got really lucky because I landed on the manufacturer that we work with today, who was more than happy to get my email was super easy to work with was very open and developing relationship. And that's how, probably how we got to where we are today. From that one cold email he happened to respond and we've been working together for now over three years.Stephanie:Oh, wow. That's really cool. So were they open to creating custom packaging? Because I know when I've looked into this space before, it seemed very black and white. You can have our packaging or something very expensive, but like it's still going to be our design. How willing were they to have something really custom?Ju:They were pretty willing. They were willing to customize design and basically customize anything that we really wanted. So they were pretty open to that. This is their business, they make products for other companies and other brands. And so they were pretty familiar with how that whole process works.Stephanie:And did you end up using a very similar or exact product of what you got in Korea that you started selling here? Or did you make any updates or changes?Ju:Yeah, I worked with the manufacturer to adjust to some things I thought were really important. So things like the adhesion or the stickiness or the absorption power of the actual patch of the hydrocolloid patch. So there were some customizations that were made for this product because I definitely wanted to create like the perfect acne patch. And that's how we landed on what we have now.Stephanie:That's great. And do you feel like you had a leg up because it looked like you've been working in the world of digital and e-commerce prior to Hero. Was there anything that you learned from your past life before Hero that you brought into founding the company?Ju:Oh yeah. All the time. So my background is I actually got my MBA at Columbia business school and then I worked in corporate America for a really long time. So I worked at Kraft foods, American express, I worked at Samsung. That's what brought me to Korea. And I mean, I still lean on my, on all those experiences. I lean particularly on my Kraft foods experience because that was in brand management where they train you in a certain way of thinking for marketing. So, consumer is always first to teach you about the retail landscape and there's a distinction between your consumer and your customer. They talk about like the brand ladder. There's so many things that I still fall back on and use to this day. And then for some of the other companies, things like processes or even knowing about email and open rates and how to really digest analytics like that, are things that I still use today.Stephanie:That's great. So I'm going to get a little crash course in craft methodology. So earlier you just mentioned distinction between consumer and customer. What do you mean by that and how do you practice that?Ju:Yeah, it's funny because in my mind they're very different, but I know sort of in the public, they both get used interchangeably, but the way that a lot of these CPG companies work is they didn't exist before at DTC world. So they always sold through a retailer like a Walmart or Costco or target, et cetera. And so those retailers were always referred to as the customer because those were the people that were actually buying your product. And then you would refer to the consumer as the end-user of the product. So the person who would inevitably eat your Oreo cookie or use your Clorox cleaning solution. Usually the consumer ended up being the consumer of the retailer. So it's really not like if you're working at Kraft foods the consumer is not technically your consumer. I mean, it is, but by way of the retailer. And so that distinction was always very important when it was written out.Stephanie:That's good. All right. So you've got your manufacturer, you've got your product being built. What next?Ju:Yeah. I have two co-founders Dwight and Andy, and then I do a lot of the product, the marketing, the PR basically the sales person. Dwight handles a lot of the supply chain ops. And then Andy, he does all our design and creative. So we had gotten together we decided the three of us were going to do this. We had the product concepts so it came. So the next thing was to come up with the brand and the product name, the brand name. And for me, it was really important that we choose a name that was very like evokes emotion or something emotive because I felt like acne was a very emotional category. There are a lot of people who feel bad about themselves or feel insecure when they have acne.Ju:And so I wanted a name that was really, I don't know like instilled confidence or was like a just evoked positive emotion. And so that's where we came up with the name Mighty Patch. And then we had to create designs does on the box really kind of create the whole brand feel of this product. And then the initial strategy was we were going to sell it on Amazon. So we launched it on Amazon. That was how we were going to distribute it. And then once we had the distribution part then came the other part, which is how do you sell it? So we had to get people to know about it buy it, leave us reviews and things like that.Stephanie:So let's dive a bit into launching on Amazon because I always hear very mixed emotions about selling on Amazon. And I want to hear your thought process about, starting their first. And did you do research on the platform to kind of see, what the space was like? Like what kind of things did you go through before deciding like Amazon's actually a good spot to start?Ju:Well, so we started this business almost like a side hustle. It was a side hustle and we were bootstrapped, we didn't raise money. And so for us, Amazon was like the most logical place to start because you have access to hundreds of millions of buyers. It doesn't take a lot of resources or investment to launch on Amazon. You can take advantage of their backend, like warehouses and fulfillment centers to help with the fulfillment part. So for us, like Amazon made so much sense and then also, back then it wasn't... we just had a hypothesis. And the hypothesis was that if we bring this product category to the US and position it more as a beauty product that it could do well.Ju:And so for us, the easiest way to test out that hypothesis was on a platform like Amazon. So rather than having to spend all the money to build a website and find a three PL and do things like that, the easiest and quickest way to test out our hypothesis was to put a page on Amazon. We said, let's see if people buy it. If people buy it, then we'll work on phase two, which would be launching a DTC channel.Stephanie:That's awesome. I think that's such a great way to have that, like MVP products. See if it works before investing too heavily into a big website and yeah, like you said, setting up three PLS. What kind of hiccups did you experience when you launched on Amazon or started that process?Ju:So one was we actually proved out our product market fit very quickly. And we actually ran out. We either I can't remember, but I think we almost ran out of inventory or we did run out of inventory. We had like our second order on a boat and it was supposed to be released, but like the timing didn't work out. And so it was really, really tight in terms of inventory planning. The other issue was we were getting people were now brand gated, but before we were brand gated, we're getting people attaching themselves to our listings as we were getting more and more popular. And so I don't know how many people know how Amazon really works, but a lot of times when you have a product page, it's not something that you own, unless you're brand gated.Ju:It's something that other people can sell that product, leveraging your product page. And then the idea is yeah, everyone has to win the buy box. And the buy box is when you're on an Amazon product page, and you add to cart, the person who's winning the buy box is the first person whose product you would add to your cart. So I didn't know any of this when we first started, I was like, why do you have to earn the buy box?Stephanie:I had no idea. I mean, I see that from a consumer side where it's like, you have other options, but I never go to those. It's like whoever's first is who I go with.Ju:Yeah. And it's really smart on Amazon's part, because as a seller, you have to earn it either by having really good reviews, like seller reviews or you have to earn it by having the best price. And so there are a lot of sellers, they'll price a penny cheaper, or like 5 cents cheaper, and then they'll win the buy box. Which inevitably is a very dangerous game because you can just sort of discount this product to zero. So anyways, we were getting people attaching themselves for a page, which wasn't good because we wanted to protect our products and our IP and all that. And then the other issue that we ran into was we started getting counterfeits mixed into our inventory. So there was a time where and I have a photo of it. It's like someone had literally ripped off our designs created like their own version of our box. I'll be at the designs were not like you could tell that it was fake. It wasn't a perfect copy. But somehow it had gotten mixed into our inventory. And then that fake product was getting shipped out to customers.Stephanie:How is that happen? I mean, was that like on the manufacturer or how does it get mixed into your inventory?Ju:I don't really know, but I think what happens is they probably attached themselves to our page at that time. And then won the buy box and started shipping this big products to these customers. I think some of them were returned, like people would return them and then it'd get mixed into our inventory that way. Stephanie:Oh, that's tricky. Yeah, because I've seen that in reviews on Amazon where people would be like, this is the authentic one. I've been buying this for five years and now it's a knock off. And I'm like well, how's that happened? But I guess he just didn't understand how that could happen, where I'm like well, the brand wouldn't have a knockoff, but yet now knowing how the buy box works and yeah, that can be really tricky. So how did you get those people off of your page when they started attaching themselves to your page? Like what did you do to rise above them?Ju:Yeah. So there's something that you can do on Amazon called brand gating. And you have to prove that you own the IP or the trademark to your brand name. So you present them, you submit all the evidence and then they will brand gate you, which means that you are sort of no longer a public page where people can attach themselves to your page. You and only you can can moderate or edit or sell on your page. And so that's what we did. And then since we've done that, it hasn't been a problem.Stephanie:Well, that's a really good lesson for anyone new trying to start out on Amazon. That is a possibility. Very good to know. So what's changed on Amazon since you launched there in 2017, what kind of things have changed?Ju:Well, our category now has just exploded. And it's funny because in September when we launched this September, 2017, it was us and maybe like one or two other products when you looked up acne patches, but now when you search for acne patches, there are like pages and pages and pages of acne patches that show up in the search results. And so sure competition [crosstalk 00:19:00]. We're the best seller, we have the best-seller badge.Stephanie:How did you get that? Just from actually being a bestseller or was there anything else behind that. I'm thinking way off course by looking at the Amazon page now.Ju:Yeah. So it's like a three-pronged strategy. One is you need to support your product and your page within the Amazon paid media ecosystem. As you need to run your sponsored product ads and your display ads. And so there's a whole advertising strategy. The other is you have to optimize your organic content. So your product titles, your page titles, your descriptions have the right key words, a plus content, video content, images. So that's the second strategy. And then the third part is kind of building your outside ecosystem. So having press point to your Amazon page or having influencers talk about your product and being available on Amazon and just sort of building your brand halo. So you have to be relentless. It definitely takes time. It took us about a year to get the bestsellers badge from the moment where we really started going after it.Stephanie:So let's talk a bit more about the competitive space, because like you said, beauty is very competitive. So many people are launching products. Like what do you all do to stay ahead from your competition?Ju:We will look at our messaging a lot. We always want to be sort of one step ahead in terms of how we message our products, why we're better really talking about our differentiation. We're also really evolving in terms of product portfolio. So we're best known for our patches, obviously that's whatever it is our bestseller on Amazon and elsewhere. But since then we've launched a lot of other products with like we have rescue bomb and then lightning won and then we're coming out with a bunch of other things next year to really build kind of a routine and regimen for acne. And so, I get the question a lot, like, why is your patch different from others? Like tell me about the patch. Like, they just want to know about the patch, but part of my job these days is really telling people that we're about much more than just the patch, we're really an acne brand. And so I think that tactic is something that is also differentiated from a lot of other competitors out there who may only have like a single patch product.Stephanie:Yeah. [inaudible] great because it shows that you're really invested in that whole market and you are always finding new products to offer to your customers, which is only going to help. Like how do you go about developing those new products and know what your customers want?Ju:It's a mix of art and science. It's some of it comes from well... We have a great PD team, product development team. Part of it comes from sort of research where we're always looking and reading at trends. And we're trying to react to white space that we see in the market. Part of it also just comes from our collective acne issues. Like sometimes I'll break out and I'll say, I really wish I had a product that did this. Why doesn't it exist? And then I'll talk to product development team. And then we'll create something that addresses that issue. Some of it also comes from research that we do with our customers or our consumers, excuse me. Well, we'll ask them what are you looking for? What else do you want to see from us? What other types of acne issues do you have that we could solve? So it's a little bit of like intuition comes from our own experiences. Some of it comes from data. It's kind of there's no perfect recipe, I guess we're coming up with your products.Stephanie:Yeah. Cool. So let's shift over a little bit into more wholesale deals and getting in retail, because I saw some of the retail locations that you're in, like Madewell and target J group. Very impressive. And so I'm sure everyone's like well, how did you get into those retail locations?Ju:Yeah. Okay. So we launched on Amazon September, 2017. I immediately started pitching retailers our product, and then anthropology was actually the first one to take us in January of 2018. And they took us as a-Stephanie:That's quick.Ju:Yeah. It was really quick which again, for me it just affirmed the idea that there was a need in the market for this type of product.Stephanie:What was your pitch? Tell us the magic.Ju:It was really like just a cold pitch email telling them what the product was, what it does, why it's gray included a picture in the email. So they had a visual really just use concise bullet points. And I mean, that's kind of it. I didn't attach a deck or anything like that.Stephanie:And did you have any data that you included that maybe won them over?Ju:I think I had talked about how acne patches in Korea were... so back then KBD was really hot. And I think I'd talked to them. I think I had mentioned that acne patches were really popular in Korea and that and there was a Korean brand that was quite popular. And so I wanted to bring like an American version of that product to the US so in a way that, buyers are usually trend seekers, they pay a lot of attention to the trends of their category. So I think she knew that acne patches a developing an emerging.Stephanie:That's great. So you got anthropology as your first retail partner. Was it easier to get the rest after you could point to anthropology and be like, see we're in here?Ju:I mean, it's definitely validation gives you street cred. But I think in 2018 when we launched in a lot of specialty retailers and I credit that to I'm a big believer in, if you build the demand, the retailers will come. And so once I started our PR push and we were mentioned in, into the gloss and business insider and Buzzfeed, I actually started getting quite a bit of inbound requests from buyers. So I remember like American Eagle was an inbound J crew, I believe was an inbound, Neiman Marcus was an inbound. So as we started getting more press and becoming more known on Instagram and things like that I actually started getting pitched from these buyers. They would email me and say, Hey, I heard about your product. I really want to try it. Can you send me some samples? And so that was sort of special.Stephanie:That's awesome. So how did you get this press to get in front of them? What kind of avenues were they finding you on, like, were they finding you from Instagram or was it actually in these articles that were somehow ending, ending up on their computer screen? How did that work?Ju:So there's a service that I used called Launch Grow Joy. I recommend to, I recommend them to like every entrepreneur that I've talked to, because it's sort of like DIY PR so you pay like a monthly or yearly fee, you log into their system and then they give you access to all these editors that are looking for content or products to talk about in their next article. I did all the pitching early on and like had mentioned before the first article that we really got was an into the gloss. And immediately after that article went up, I think I got like two or three inbound emails from retailers saying, Oh, I just read about your product. I really want to try it. And so I think if you know, what the buyers re like, usually depending on your category, they read certain things to know what the trends are and to know what's like new. So for beauty.Ju:And so the gloss is it's a publication that a lot of people read. And so I just got really lucky, I think with that first article and then just started pitching other beauty related publications and then sort of build [inaudible]Stephanie:That's really great. So now you're in many retail locations at that point? What kind of lessons did you learn that maybe you took to new retail partner you got?Ju:That's a good question. I think packaging is really, really important. I think that's why initially I think we stood out because our packaging was very colorful and it was very bright. And then it was pretty clear with product did on the packaging. And so for me, like anytime we make a packaging change, I always run it by our buyers. So when we launch new products and we're looking at a different color scheme or something like that, I'll always send it to our buyers to get quick feedback, because they'll know if it'll do well or won't do well. So that's a big one.Stephanie:Do you change packaging based on different retail locations whatever connects with anthropology might be very different than target.Ju:No, we don't, maybe we'll do different pack sizes, but we won't really change the design. So I think that's a big one. I mean, I've learned that working and staying close with the buyer is really important because they'll have a lot of input into your innovation too. Because, because sometimes like they're looking for a certain type of product and then they'll come to you and they'll be like, Oh, we'd love this. We'd love it if you made X, Y, Z product. And so I try to stay close with the buyers on innovation pipeline. I think it's really important to hold price. We started selling on Amazon. And then I actually was very worried in the beginning that no one would take us because we were on Amazon, because to your point, a lot of people have this love, hate relationship with Amazon.Ju:But actually what I found was that no one had a problem with it because we're three on Amazon. So we sell on their marketplace. Therefore we control the price because we could control the price. A lot of other retailers were okay with it. And in fact, they kind of see Amazon success as validation that it will probably do well at their store as well.Stephanie:Yeah, that makes sense. Very cool. So now with where the world's at today, and a lot of retail locations, declaring bankruptcy, what are you guys experiencing right now? And what's your go forward strategy?Ju:Yeah, this year has been an interesting year. We're luckily one of those businesses that actually benefited from COVID in a way and really two reasons, I think one reason is our distribution strategy. So the biggest channels that we sell in which are D to C, Amazon and Target are, they were always online or they never say it another way. They never had to close this year because like Target was considered an essential retailer, Amazon, they're online and then D to C is online. And so luckily we weren't a company that depended heavily on a retailer that did have to close so that, so we saw minimal impact. And then in fact, like, as these essential retailers, they get stronger. Our business actually just gets stronger as well. And then the other issue is since we all have to wear masks the masks because acne, and there's a term that people use is called [inaudible 00:33:08].Stephanie:Have not heard of that.Ju:Have you not? Its called [inaudible] And it's caused by either like the friction. So when you wear the mask, sometimes it rubs on her face and it causes friction and then that'll cause you to break out or I don't know if you've noticed this, but when I have the mask on it, it creates humidity when you talk like when you talk and when you breathe, it creates humidity. and that humidity gets trapped and creates bacteria, which causes you to break out. And so we've seen a lot of people suffer from mass MI looking for a solution and then they end up finding our products and our company. And so that's another reason why we've actually benefited from COVID in a way.Stephanie:Oh, that's good. So are you going after the masks masks me keyword or any other cameras coming?Ju:Yeah, actually when I first heard about maskne I don't know, maybe it was like April, like may or something like that, I immediately told my team and I said, Hey, we need to double down on this, on this word, let's write a blog post, let's do social content. We need to own maskne. I think we were the first ones probably to come up with like content around maskne and to do, to even create a bundle on our website for a mass me. And then since then I've seen some other people do that, but I saw that as definitely an opportunity for us.Stephanie:Yeah. That's, really good. So I want to move over into the mentorship category now, because I saw that you have Jamie Schmidt as your mentor and she created schmaltz and she started in a farmer's market and then ended up selling it to Unilever. So amazing mentor. I want to learn a bit about the types of things that she's guiding you on or the most memorable pieces of advice that she's given you.Ju:Oh gosh. So she helps me a lot with distribution because she also obviously had built and sold a company that's similar in terms of distribution strategy. Like they weren't just D to C. They also sold that big box retail and had a pretty extensive they had extensive distribution. And so I remember when we did a mentoring session for Inc magazine, one of the questions I asked her was around like succeeding at target and how to do that, how to ensure success because it's a really important relationship. You want to make sure you get it right. You don't really have a second chance. So she gave give a lot of really good advice and tips on that and also how they support it.Ju:I remember her saying that they ran a lot of geo-targeted ads and some of the top like 50 or a hundred stores to drive traffic to, to the target stores. So that was a really good idea. And even, even now I hadn't recently sent her an email about sort of international distribution, because I know they have quite a few international distributor partners how to navigate those relationships what those relationships should look like. And then people should definitely follow her on Twitter. She gives a lot of really good advice on Twitter for free. So I'm always following what she tweets.Stephanie:She's very smart. I follow her as well. So what kind of thoughts did she have around expanding internationally? And are you working towards doing that or are you already international?Ju:We're kind of international, like we sell on Amazon Canada, we sell at Liberty London in the UK. It hasn't been a big push for us just because US market alone is so big and then we already have so much work. But it's definitely something we have our eyes set on just because for us, acne, we want to make our products available for anyone who has acne. I think they really do help people who break out. And so that's obviously not just limited to the US it's really a global problem. Anyone who breaks out should be able to access our products. And so it is, yeah, it's in the strategy for sure. I think it's a matter of prioritizing it when we have the time.Stephanie:Cool. And so by taking a product that you found in Korea and bringing it back here, it seems like there'd be a lot of room to go other places and be like oh, and here's another product I can bring to the US and another one, like do you ever get tempted when you travel or traveling to buying other products and be like this worked once. Why wouldn't I just launch more things on Amazon?Ju:Yeah, I haven't had a product idea yet, but living in Paris I do see things here where I'm like oh, wow. I wish I could introduce this to the US. I think it could do really well.Stephanie:What are some things in Paris doing well, or unless you don't want people to steal your idea because we have many customers who might, I don't know.Ju:Well, I'll say there's a retail idea. There's a retail chain that does quite well here and that doesn't exist in the US and again, it was sort of the same thing. I'm like, why does it exist in the US? And I think you're right. I think that's like one of the great things about traveling is you get to really explore and learn a different culture and discover different products or different services that could be adaptable to a different country, a different market. And so I kind of have two ideas that are kind of like that already.Stephanie:All right. So I want to move into a couple more like higher level ecommerce questions because you've been in the industry for awhile. I want to hear what kind of trends or patterns are you most excited about right now?Ju:I think there's a lot of cool stuff in food that's happening. I think I'm really interested... For me personally, I'm really interested in the environment and sustainability, and I see a lot of cool ideas around local delivery by bike. So it's zero emission. It gets a product from point A to point B. It is a lot more sustainable. I think that's really interesting. I think food again is also interesting. And especially with COVID and this year and how I think the uptake with buying food online has probably skyrocketed. I think there are a lot of people who weren't used to doing their groceries online. So I'm really curious to see innovation that comes out with food. I'm also very interested in sort of this marketplace concept that I see coming up and popping up. There's a new marketplace called [inaudible 00:41:57].Stephanie:Yeah. I was just reading about that this morning.Ju:Yeah. So it's sort of like a D to C. I guess it's a good D to C marketplace or some marketplace for D to C brands, almost like an online mall, which I think sounds really interesting as well. So I don't know. I mean, there's just a ton of stuff going on. I think for sure, like ecomm is going to be it because we've seen the adoption just really increase in penetration over the past eight months, I guess. So I'm curious to see what the innovation is going to be like, but I already see a ton of ideas happening at the moment.Stephanie:Yeah. Awesome. All right. Let's move over to the lightning round, brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Ju?Ju:I'm ready?Stephanie:All right. So what's up next on your Netflix queue other than Emily and Paris, obviously?Ju:Oh, I'm watching the Crown, the newest season.Stephanie:Is it good? Someone just said that yesterday.Ju:Oh yeah. Because it's all about princess Diana and Prince Charles. So yes, it's good.Stephanie:Awesome. Where are you traveling to next when you're able to travel again?Ju:I really want to go to Korea actually. I want to go to Seol.Stephanie:Find more trends.Ju:Yeah. Find more trends. I want to see my relatives. I want to meet my vendors. Yeah, I would really like to go there.Stephanie:Fun. What do you not understand today that you wish you did?Ju:I wish I could understand TikTok better.Stephanie:Do you guys use TikTok?Ju:We're very heavy on TikTok. It's one of our most important social channels, but I don't know. I find it so time-intensive to make the videos and create the content and stuff, but there's some people who are amazing at it.Stephanie:So what kind of what are your best performing videos on TikTok?Ju:Oh, the peeling off the patch and that video. Yeah, because it's like kind of like a doctor Pimple Popper moment. It's kind of gross, but satisfying. And those videos will get like millions of views in like 48 hours.Stephanie:I had a feeling that was going to be what it was. I can advertise those videos all the time. I don't know what I clicked on at one point in my life, but I can all that advertised to me on Facebook and wherever I'm at. [inaudible] stop following me. Cool. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Ju:Oh, that's a good question, because I actually thought about having a podcast. I would have a podcast around entrepreneurship. I don't know exactly how it would be different from other topics, but something around probably entrepreneurship, maybe how people made the first million dollars or something like that. And then my first guest would probably be Jim [inaudible 00:45:11].Stephanie:There you go. That's to mean you already have that connection, it sounds like a hit to me. All right. And the last one, we talked a little bit about trends or patterns you're excited about. This is a little bit different. What one thing do you think is going to have the biggest impact on ecommerce within the next year?Ju:Well, I mean, I guess the pandemic has already had its impact. In the next year... I don't know. I mean I think probably this big sustainability push is... I don't know if it will be in the next year, but I think we will start to see it impacting ecommerce in a significant way, in packaging in your carbon footprint. And I think we're going to see a lot more of it in the next year for sure.Stephanie:All right Ju, this has been a really fun interview. I love talking about how you launched on Amazon and how to get into retail. I feel like there's a lot to learn. Where can people find out more about you and your cosmetics?Ju:You can find more about Hero cosmetics either on Instagram. The handle is Hero cosmetics website, herocosmetics.com. And then for me, you can find me on Twitter. It's just my first name, last name, J-U-R-H-Y-U, and then same handle on Instagram.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for joining.

They say that laughter is the best medicine. For Colin McIntosh, it’s also been a pretty good business strategy. After a couple of fits and starts in business, Colin found himself with no job but quite a few domain names in his possession, all of which were pun-based. So he cycled through what he owned and formed a plan to build a company in a disruptable industry where he could make a splash and earn some market share. What he landed on was Sheets & Giggles, a direct to consumer bedsheets company with a social good component that became the most successful bedsheets company to launch on the crowd-funding site, Indiegogo. Since then, Sheets & Giggles has grown to millions of dollars in sales. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Colin gives the behind-the-scenes story of building Sheets & Giggles, including how he worked backward to build an email list that led to an unprecedented 45% conversion rate. Plus, Colin dives into the pros and cons of selling on Amazon, and gives an exclusive preview of some of the ad copy he’s working on to bring more humor to the Sheets & Giggles campaigns across channels.   Main Takeaways:Going Backward: In order to meet your goals, it’s sometimes useful to work backward. Define what it is that you want to achieve and then reverse engineer the steps you need to take to get there. Navigating the Amazon Waters: DTC founders agree that Amazon is simultaneously the best and worst partner you can have. There are pros and cons to working on the platform, including massive discoverability but also deep cuts into profit margin. It’s important to weigh all the pros and cons of selling on the platform and find the strategy that works best for your brand and that leaves you with more of the pros than the cons. Laughing With You, Not At You: Selling with humor is an effective strategy if you can actually get potential customers to engage. Consumers are reading less and less, so if you are going to use humorous copy, it needs to really resonate, grab the attention of the customer, and get them to keep going along the customer journey. It’s easy to be funny just for the sake of being funny, but you have to remember that the ultimate goal is to sell the product, so there needs to be a call to action.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, this is Stephanie Postles, Co-Founder of mission.org, and your host of Up Next In Commerce. Welcome back. Our guest today is Colin McIntosh, the Founder and CEO of Sheets & Giggles. Colin, how's it going?Colin:Pretty good. Thanks so much for having me today.Stephanie:Yeah, thanks for coming on. I was very nervous about messing that name up. I'm sure you get that a lot.Colin:MacIntosh, McIntosh. Yeah, [crosstalk 00:00:28]-Stephanie:Oh, I meant your company name.Colin:Oh, Sheets & Giggles. Yeah. No, of course. Yeah, sorry. I feel like I've gotten so used to it now, I don't even register it anymore. But yeah, you can call it S&G for short, so that way you're not laughing every time.Stephanie:There you go. I like it. So, before the show started, we were going a little bit through your background, which I think people would like to hear before we get into Sheets & Giggles. So, I'd love for you to kind of start there. How did you come to founding Sheets & Giggles, and what came before that?Colin:Well, a lot came before. It depends on how far back you want to go. I graduated from Emory University's business school back in 2012, and I started my career at the world's largest hedge fund in Connecticut, a place called Bridgewater Associates. And, the founder there, a guy named Ray Dalio, is pretty famous nowadays. And, I got fired in about five months, which was great being 22 and losing your first job in a strange state that you don't know anybody in. And then-Stephanie:What happened?Colin:Well, I was terrible at my job. So, [crosstalk 00:01:33]-Stephanie:Five months is not enough time. How did they even know?Colin:No, Bridgewater is usually... They're famous for two months or two years.Stephanie:Okay.Colin:And so, I kind of had a weird little in between stay, where after two months we were all pretty sure it wasn't going to work out, but they were like, "Ah, this should work out," and they didn't want to really pull the plug. And then, eventually I remember, they were arguing in front of me one day about... I'll never forget this. They were re-interviewing me for a different role inside of the company, and... That's how they do it. You lose your "box," and then they try to find you a new box before they totally get rid of you, because they think you're a culture fit.Stephanie:Yep.Colin:And so, they were arguing in front of me. I'll never forget, these two guys, the two managers. One said, "You know, I think Colin is a six for this role," and the other manager says, "Well, I think he's more like a seven, and I think we should hire him into it." And, they're arguing six, seven, six, seven out of 10. And then, the arbiter goes, "Look, guys. He can't get hired into the role if he's not a seven. If he's a six, we can't give him the offer." And then they agree, "Okay, he's a six-and-a-half, and we'll need to have another meeting on it." And, I just remember I raised my hand and I go, "Guys, let me do this. Today's going to be my last day at Bridgewater." I just couldn't deal with that type of [crosstalk 00:02:50]-Stephanie:Yeah, rating you.Colin:It was crazy. Yeah. And so, that was my first job experience. And, from there I became a recruiter, a third-party agency, recruiting for banks, and hedge funds, and startups. That's where I got into technology, and startups, and software. Taught myself a lot about software development and software engineering, and ended up hiring a bunch of different engineers at a bunch of different companies. And, I ended up hiring myself at one of my clients in Seattle, in a really interesting B2B software space called Application Virtualization, which was really hot in 2014; it's still pretty hot.Colin:And I ended up moving up to Seattle. And then, about a year and a half later, I got an opportunity at a company that I helped co-found with some friends called Revel R, which was a wearable tech product that got into Techstars, which is for those listening, a really famous worldwide accelerator for startups. They give you a $100,000 for 6% of your company, and put you in a room with nine other companies for three months, and give you all the training, resources, connections, and mentorship that you could possibly need.Colin:And so I dropped everything I was doing in Seattle, drove 19 hours down to Denver on a week's notice, and became a Coloradan about five years ago. And, that company... I ended up working there for about two-and-a-half years. We all got laid off at 1:00 PM on a Sunday, as startups unfortunately go. And, it was really sad. We had raised millions of dollars, and we're in Target, and Brookstone, and HSN, QVC Deals, T-Mobile stores. But, that product, unfortunately, didn't have all the legs that we thought it did. And, three weeks after I got laid off xI incorporated Sheets & Giggles, and now it's been three years since that date. And, it is now the longest I'd ever worked anywhere in my career.Stephanie:That's great. So, what is Sheets & Giggles, and how did you have the idea to start it?Colin:Well, for anyone who hasn't heard of us, it's okay; although, I will hold it against you.Stephanie:Very rude.Colin:Very rude. We sell bedsheets that are sustainable, and they're made out of a material called Lyocell, which is made from eucalyptus trees. And so, if you Google or Amazon eucalyptus sheets, we're generally the first results. Lyocell sheets is another query we rank high for. And what our sheets do is, they actually save up to 96% of the water that cotton sheets use, which is about 96%... sorry, 1,000 gallon reduction. And then, they also save in energy, they use no pesticides, no insecticides; whereas, cotton can use 16-24% of the world's insecticides just by itself, as a crop.Colin:They also biodegrade faster than cotton, they're hypoallergenic, they're zero-static, and they're naturally softer and more cooling. So, if you're a hot sleeper, they're the best possible material. The eucalyptus Lyocell is for hot sleepers. And so, it's a really wonderful product. We began manufacturing at about two a half years ago, and we now have shipped tens of thousands of orders. We raised a couple of million dollars in capital, although we are mostly revenue funded, and we grow according to our revenue. And, we are just loving life right now. We're a very socially conscious company, and it's really wonderful to be able to have fun, do good, and make money at the same time.Stephanie:That's great. So, with your company, did you see an opportunity in the market from doing research, or did you just wake up one night sweaty like "Oh, I need to build better sheets. This is [crosstalk 00:06:32]." How did that happen?Colin:So, whenever I hear founder interviews from Brooklinen, or other bedsheets companies... And, I hate to throw Brooklinen under the bus. They're a great company, and I really respect... No, I really respect what they've built. They get $100 million dollars in trailing 12 months revenue. They're a wonderful company. But, their co-founders go on these-Stephanie:However.Colin:... podcasts, then they're like, "Oh, we were staying in these hotel sheets, and we were like, 'Oh, they're so lovely. And, let me find out how expensive they were,' and we were like, 'There had to be a better way.'"Nobody starts a company because they stayed at a hotel. They saw a really good business model. They found a manufacturer who would make really good products for them at an affordable price so they could resell it a higher price, and they went from there. And that's great, and they should be proud of that.Colin:And so, that's sort of, more or less, what happened with S&G, where it was actually a business model play first. And, I'm a big... a big, big advocate of sustainability, and climate change is one of my hot buttons. I've always had a bleeding heart. I've worked at startups trying to end animal euthanasia. My last startup, the wearable tech startup I talked about, we were trying to fight sexual assault and violence. We actually sent out 60,000 emergency alerts, saved a bunch of lives, which was really a wonderful... wonderful thing that the company did. But you know, this company, I really wanted to have a sustainability mission. And so, I kind of sat down and I wrote out my perfect business model with a sustainability mission.Colin:This is a true story. I looked at all the domains that I owned, and I owned SheetsGiggles.com because I thought it'd be a funny name for bedsheets company. I have a lot of pun-based domains that I own.Stephanie:What's some other ones? I want to hear them. Any others come to mind?Colin:I've got a few really good ones, Bodcasts.com...Stephanie:Oh my god.Colin:... B-O D-C-A-S-T-S.com. I love that. I would love to do podcasts for exercise, where you don't have to watch YouTube videos, and you can just have a platform for exercise physiologists and personal trainers to do listening-only routines. I also own SunglassesHalfFull.com for a sunglass company, GiraffeCarafe.com for carafes in the shape of giraffes. I own WorkFromRome.com. Why work from home when you can work from Rome? That's a travel company for remote work. I buy a lot of domains [crosstalk 00:09:13]-Stephanie:So many companies to start, so little time.Colin:Yeah. Romanhemperor is probably my favorite one that I'll probably start one day, a CBD company.Stephanie:That's good.Colin:My nephew's name is Roman, so he'll be my little CBD mascot.Stephanie:Perfect. I like it.Colin:Yeah, I'm sure my sister will love that.Stephanie:Yeah, I think she will.Colin:Yeah. But yeah. To answer your question, a lot of them. I owned SheetsGiggles.com. I thought, "Does bedding fit my criteria?" and it fit perfectly, $12 billion U.S. market growing 10% year over year, highly fragmented, the top five players only own about 27% of the market, and it wasn't fully online at that point. It was still mostly physical retail. I kind of just put my head down, and I fell in love with this brand. That was the other thing, is I just fell involved with the idea of a funny brand in a very boring space, especially if it's a sustainable, premium product and you can still do a funny brand. That's a really hard tight rope to walk, and I really fell in love with the branding challenge.Colin:That was kind of when I put my head down in October 2017. I created a brand, Identity Map, for this pun-based bedding empire, is what I would call it to people. Me and a couple of contractors just designed a logo, and I built my own website, wrote every single word of copy myself, would stay up until four in the morning, writing, wake up at 8:00 AM, start writing again, and just totally fell in love with this weird, little company that I was creating in my bed, in my underwear. In May 2018, we did our crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo, raised $284,000 crowdfunded, love those crowdfunders and have a very special relationship with thousands of people who brought the company to life, and it's all been history of since there.Stephanie:That's really fun. What was your experience on Indiegogo? How did you get found? Because a lot of times on those crowdfunding platforms, it seems like there's so much noise nowadays. In the early days, it was [crosstalk] to get found.Colin:Yeah.Stephanie:Now it's like, "Oh my gosh, if I put something up there, there's thousands of other people trying to raise money for something." How did you make sure that people found your potential product?Colin:Yeah, absolutely. Even in 2018, it was still a pretty difficult task. There were still thousands of projects being launched every single day. 2013, 2014 would have done prime time to do a crowdfunding campaign. That was actually when, fun fact, I'm going to brag a little bit, Brooklyn did their Kickstarter in 2013 or 2014, and they did $236,000. We did ours in 2018, $284,000.Stephanie:Hey.Colin:Yes.Stephanie:Hello.Colin:Basically, there's a few hacks for crowdfunding campaigns. If anyone out there is thinking about doing a crowdfunding campaign, generally speaking, you want to do a few things. First and foremost, you want to set a goal that you can hit on day one because their algorithms reward percentage of goals hit in a period of time. They don't reward dollars raised. You don't want to go too low because then you've set expectations for people that, "Wow, you've blown away your goal, and now I expect the world from this company," but you don't want to go too high either and have a goal that takes you the full 30 days to hit because then you won't trend. For us, for example, internally, we wanted to do $100,000. Externally, we set our goal as $50,000. We thought that we could hit that in a couple of days based on our preparation.Colin:The second thing you want to do in order to come out of the noise is prepare. A lot of people... It's kind of sad. I see them launch a crowdfunding idea for something that maybe is a really cool idea or a cool project, but they don't do any preparation whatsoever, and they don't stop the think that even if they have 1,000 Facebook friends and 30 friends and family and 500 connections on LinkedIn and whatever it is, you just got to always assume a 3% conversion rate with anything, even your friends and family. If you have 1,000 people that you think you can count on, you're talking about 30 people that are actually going to pull the trigger and give you their credit card information when you end up buying. You don't want to rely on the friends-and-family model for crowdfunding. It's just not a good way to do it.Colin:What you want to rely on is an email list. I get asked all the time, "Where do you find your email list? Do you buy it? Do you build it?" The answer is, "You build it." You want to build it and get people to give you their emails who are interested, qualified leads, who are interested in buying into the brand that you're building. What we did was we worked backwards from our goal of $100,000 and said, "Okay, $100,000 in 30 days, generally speaking with the crowdfunding math, you want to make 30% of that on day one." That's just the way the crowdfunding works, big boost in the beginning, plateau in the middle, boost at the end. You want $30,000 on day one. We knew our sheets were going to cost $70 on average, which was a really low price. I really under-priced them. We knew our average order was probably going to be 1.5 units, so $100 average order value. If $30,000 on day one at $100 average order value is the goal, that means we need 300 customers on day one.Colin:If an email list converts at 3%, then that means that we need 10,000 emails in order to get 300 customers on day one. That became our singular focus, singular goal from February through April of 2018 was gathering those 10,000 emails, doing it at an affordable price that would end up translating into a low cost of acquisition, and we ended up spending about $9,000 to gather about 11,000 emails, converted at about a 45% rate, which was really unheard of. That was the first time I was ever very, very-Stephanie:That's really high.Colin:Yeah, I was very, very excited and confident that the crowdfunding campaign was going to go well when we saw the 45% email capture rate. We ended up converting at 4.5% on our email list on day one, and we had a $45,000 day one just like clockwork. Then we [crosstalk 00:15:05].Stephanie:That's awesome.Colin:Yeah.Stephanie:I like the idea of working backwards. I think enough people don't think of, "What do I want my end result to be, and how do I make sure to get there?" Like you said, they rely on, "I have enough friends who will buy," which I've also experienced does not work. Friends and family [crosstalk] can only go so far. Yeah.Colin:People forget. People get busy. They have busy mornings. They forget. You need a big boost all at once to come out of the noise on crowdfunding. We ended up being the number two trending topic on Indiegogo.Stephanie:That's awesome. How did you go about building your email list? Because acquiring emails for the price that you did is very good. Conversions are very good. You can get a ton of emails these days, but a lot of them probably wouldn't be qualified if you don't do it the right way. What kind of tactics did you use to get good emails who are qualified buyers to make sure that they actually ended up converting when you launched?Colin:That's a great question. First and foremost, if you're going to do a crowdfunding campaign, I would recommend hiring a digital agency that specializes in crowdfunding, but I would be very careful about whom because there's a ton of sharks and predators in this industry who will take your $2,000 set up fee, and they'll promise you the moon, right? Colin:There is one agency I'd recommend, my buddy, Will Russell, he's the man, Russell Marketing in New York. And I trust him with my life, so I hired Will. I had known him tangentially through the last place I worked at. And he basically flew out the boulder. We sat down and we white boarded things out February, 2018 about our plan for the crowdfunding campaign. And basically the method was he had these emails from past campaigns that were early adopters, right? There are people who had backed Kickstarter campaigns before, and you can get lists like that in other places. Then you begin to build one, two and 3% lookalike audiences on Facebook. From those lists, you're able to advertise to other people who are likely early adopters. You build a landing page. We use kickoff labs as the software for our landing pages that hooked into our Google analytics. We did a photo shoot all in for $500 with me and all my best friends in Denver, Colorado. We were smoking cigars, drinking whiskey, having fun in bed, playing with dogs, eating pizza.Colin:Basically, whatever makes us laugh is what put on camera. And so, that was what we did in February 2018. We built those landing pages and that content with our first photo shoots, and all the copy that we wrote was just coming from my two fingers or 10. And then we just basically ask people, Hey, do you want to walk into the best price you're ever going to get on the best bedsheets you're ever going to feel? And we had three core value propositions for any crowdfunding campaign. You generally need three core differentiation propositions. One was that it's literally softer and cooler than cotton. And I led with that because I think that people are selfish and won't buy a sustainable product, if it's not better than the unsustainable version.Stephanie:Yep.Colin:Value prop number two was that it was sustainable, and value prop number three was that because I knew how all these retailers worked, and I know the margin share that Bed, Bath and Beyond takes from this category, which was about 40%, the price that you're paying is going to be traumatically lower than the price you pay for comparable luxury, sustainable options in the store. And those were our three value props and it really resonated.Stephanie:That's great. So what is your customer acquisition strategy look like now that's different than maybe what you did with Indiegogo?Colin:Now? I mean, now I have an in-house marketing team, a four person team. They're absolutely wonderful. And Sarah, our VP of marketing, is total genius, and she is someone who on the performance marketing side I think is unmatched. And I basically give her, to be completely honest. I give her free rein at this stage because a founder's skillset is fundamentally different than a CEO skillset. And I'm doing my best to transition from founder to CEO. And part of that is not micro-managing. And frankly, being okay with a much more boring job of facilitating, supporting, financing and managing versus being the creative, being the brand voice, being the copywriter, being the photographer and the videographer, and the Facebook data analyzer, and the Amazon ads creator. I can't do that anymore because it just doesn't scale. And it's also a good way to get talented people to leave when they feel like they're being micromanaged.Colin:So in terms of our actual strategies, basically, it's all direct to consumer on our website, sheetsgiggles.com and Amazon. And we've got a core channels of Facebook, Instagram, Google, and Amazon as our digital spend. We do some podcasts advertising, so definitely get in touch about that. And we also do radio advertising on Colorado Public Radio and a few other stations. And then we've tried direct mail, we tried a few other funky things. Nothing has the [inaudible] that digital tends to have.Colin:And in terms of email strategy nowadays, we actually don't email people nearly as often as we used to. In the very beginning, when we launched them Indiegogo, we'd email people maybe once a week. Now we're probably emailing people once a quarter, which is really crazy for a direct to consumer brand. Like every direct consumer brand in my inbox blows up my inbox four times a week like, buy more of our shit.Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:And so, the amount of sandal emails that I get from my sandal company is ridiculous. And so we email people only when we want them to take a very specific action. And that leads to open rates of high forties on emails, which is really, really stellar for open rates on emails. And we make sure that we use that wisely and we don't over innovate people.Stephanie:Great. So what are your favorite channels right now? Of everything that you just mentioned, is there any channel that you're maybe putting more budget into, or that you're seeing higher success with?Colin:I can find a row ad that beats Facebook, I will pull all my Facebook tomorrow, but they're definitely the highest row ads. Branded search is obviously the thing that's going to be best in the long run. So we spend a lot of time building up our brand recognition with people and our brand affinity, and then just earned media is really good too. We have a PR agency that we employ and we got covered yesterday by the Daily Beast, and we've been covered by Real Simple and Forbes and Apartment Therapy. We are Apartment Therapy's Best at 2020 picks, and a lot of other publications. We've been on today.com and Amazon gives us a lot of shout outs because of the philanthropy that we do.Colin:And so that's been really helpful to have Amazon as a big partner in our PR and in our discovery and exposure. So overall I would say Facebook and earned media are probably our two biggest ones. And then I do love radio and podcasts advertising, and I'm trying to figure out how to make that funnier for the listener. And so I'm currently recording a few new podcast ads that I think are going to be really funny and not in a really bad Geico, not funny at all way, but actual bits on the radio.Stephanie:Oh, give me a bit. What are you working with it? [crosstalk] You can practice in here. There's no judgment.Colin:Okay, great. Great. Great. So, I've got one that I think is pretty funny in a meta sort of way where I want to go on a podcast and be like, hi. Have you ever the CEO of Harry's do his thing?Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:I'm not famous, but I'm the CEO of Harry's.Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:So, I'm like, hi, I'm Collin, the CEO of Sheets & Giggles. That's probably means nothing to you, which is depressing, a little sad. We're a young company, we're based in Denver. We do some good stuff. Oh, we sell bedsheets. I should probably lead with that. God, how does the Harry CEO do this? And basically go with that. And then, somebody in the background goes 10 seconds. 10 seconds? And I'm like we sell eucalyptus bedsheets. They're sustainable, they're softer than cotton. Go buy them at sheetsgiggles.com. And that's the end of that. And then-Stephanie:That's actually catchy. I like that because a few people were like, "What is this dude going to say?" And then [crosstalk 00:24:12].Colin:And then I want to record four or five versions of that, that run on different roles. And basically, it moves from okay, they gave me a second take, I got it this time, I'm calling, CEO Sheets and Giggles, again, we sell bed sheets. I feel like that's obvious, maybe not that obvious. I don't know. If it was just called sheets without the giggles, it'd be a little more obvious. And then somebody's like, "10 seconds. And I'm like, "Oh, my God," and then get back into it again. And so, I think that those little bits and the nonsequiturs and stuff is very much our comedy and the trailing off and the tangents. And so, I really want to write a few different bits like that, that really flow with one another.Stephanie:Yeah. That's pretty great. I can't wait to hear this on radio or other podcasts as I think those will all do well. How do you-Colin:Well, you heard it here first.Stephanie:Yeah. You heard it here first everyone. This is special. Do you ever feel like selling through humor, like that could hold you back in a way because sometimes I see some brands where that's so much their angle that it gets away from the product because they get so funny where you're like, "Wait, what are you actually selling again?" So, how do you guys balance that to make sure you're still selling, but in an innovative, new way, that's setting you apart from others.Colin:It's actually a stellar question. I see that all the time when I see an Instagram brand that's just pure, pure, pure, funny without ever talking about their products in any way or ever talking about their reviews or their sustainability. It's just, "Buy our shorts because we're funny." It's like, "Dude, they're polyester shorts. I'm not going to buy your polyester shorts because you're funny."Colin:But the thing that we do, I think, that is not unique, but I think is smart is we basically let our reviews do the talking for us. So, we always say we're not serious, but the sheets are. And that's our mantra is, "We don't need to sell the sheets. Our reviews sell the sheets. Our stats sell the sheets." The amount of water we save, the pesticides and insecticides we save, we plant a tree for every order. We've got 3000 reviews on our website, 4.8 stars and we don't hide our one star and two star reviews like a lot of other consumer brands do. We have 845 reviews on Amazon as of this morning, I check every single day. I personally, as a CEO, read every single review that comes in, we have a Slack plugin that pulls every single review and puts it in front of my face. Every time we get one in live time on Amazon, we're four and a half stars on Facebook. We're 4.7 with 116 reviews, I think.Colin:And so, that type of cross channel confidence in terms of review score is really important for the consumer. And then the sustainability, the planting of a tree for every order, we give you 10% off if you donate your own old sheets to a homeless shelter, we pledge 1% of our profits, time products and equity, to local Colorado charities, we've donated $40,000 this year to Colorado COVID-19 emergency relief. The stuff that we do, I think, really speaks for itself and we don't have to really broadcast it and advertise it, even though I just obviously did. Instead, we just lead with the humor and then let people read more if they want. And truth be told, I think the most limiting thing, and you kind of touched on this, is that not everybody's a reader, especially when you're talking about Americans, no offense to... I'm a red blooded American, but we don't read.Colin:My old mentor at a toy company told me with the packaging that they made, their mantra is, "If you're asking people to read, you'll lose." And so, that's probably the biggest limiter is that a lot of our comedy is very copy heavy. A lot of other people are more visual or meme based or slapstick and video and we're much more copy heavy. And so, I like to think about us as sort of like the Seinfeld of bedding brands, which is probably the first time that's been uttered in the sense.Stephanie:Was that your Techstars YC type of thing of I'm [crosstalk 00:28:24]?Colin:We went to Techstars. They were like, "Why should we have a bedding company in Techstars?" And I think I was just like, "Why not?" And they were like, "We never thought about it like that." I was like, "You're in." But yeah, the Seinfeld of bedding companies was the way that I always thought about it. It's a brand about nothing. And by being a brand about nothing, it really is a wonderful way for us to be a brand about everything. And that was the beauty of Seinfeld, which has been my favorite TV show obviously, is that every episode was about its own little subtopic and it didn't have to have this overarching theme or story arc and that's great with us.Colin:As one day, we can donate $12,000 to the world wildlife fund to save koalas, another day we can donate 40,000 to COVID-19 relief, another day we can donate thousands of dollars to Black Lives Matter organizations, another day we can plant 20,000 trees for last year's orders. And we don't have this kind of overarching thing that we push on people. Instead, they can just discover it if they want to keep reading. And then we just try to make the copy entertaining for them to find their way through our website.Stephanie:Cool. Yeah. That a good way to explain it and yeah, it makes sense how you guys do it. So-Colin:It is limiting though. Yeah. When you're building a brand, you want 20% of people to really viscerally resonate with it and 80% of people to either be mad or react poorly to it and then that way you just don't want indifference. That's the biggest thing is I see so many direct to consumer brands that are the next shiny thing like, oh, the best apparel you'll ever buy or the best makeup or the best food or... They're all the same exact brand and it bores me to tears. The white stuff on the white walls with the white curtains and the white room. It's like, "Oh, just kill me."Stephanie:Yeah, completely agree. So, how do you encourage reviews? You were mentioning that you have a ton of reviews. How do you get people to follow through and actually take the time to give you your reviews?Colin:We, again, brand about nothing. We give to people who leave reviews free pizzas every week for no reason. It's just like, why pizza? I don't know. Pizza's good. You like pizza.Stephanie:Okay.Colin:Does it have anything to do with bedding pizza? People eat pizza in bed, I guess.Stephanie:I guess. Yeah. Not on my nice eucalyptus sheets though I'm not going to.Colin:But they wash real easy. So, it's okay if you spill on it. No, but that's how we incentivize it is we just say, "Hey, if you leave a review there's a chance that you'll get two free pizzas this week," and who doesn't like free pizza? Communists that's who. And so-Stephanie:That's good.Colin:Actually, we say capitalists that's who. And so, we do bits like that and it's stuff like that, that I think really drives people into the brand and we get people who are like, "This is insulting. I'm a capitalist." And I'm like, "It's a bit. It's just a joke about free pizza." And so that's how we incentivize it mostly. And then again, really engaging copy. The subject line is good, we have high open rates on our review request emails, we make it so you can leave the review directly in the email-Stephanie:Oh, that's a good one.Colin:We don't overpay for review software. I can't stand the stuff that's thousands of dollars a month. There's really good, affordable review software out thereStephanie:Okay. Cool. How did you think about moving on to Amazon? Because we've had a couple of [DVC] companies on here. Quite a few. It's been kind of mixed where, some were very excited about Amazon. Some were like, "Oh, I pulled it off because it kind of walked down the brand and they could end up just copying us and making a white label," and so there's been a lot of mixed thoughts around working with Amazon. So what led you to wanting to utilize their platform? Obviously they're featuring you and helping you guys. What are your thoughts around having a DVC company on Amazon?Colin:Amazon is Amazon. It's the best partner you'll ever have and the worst partner you'll ever have, and exists simultaneously in the same platform. That's why you hear this sort of debate or dichotomy amongst founders where it's like, "Do you want to go on Amazon?" And the pros, right, are that 54% of Americans. I think it got up to 60% of Americans now start a product search on Amazon. They've trained the American populace to, when they're looking for a thing, go to amazon.com. Google has lost that battle. So it's a massive channel that you really... It's hard to avoid. You have discoverability. You could have channel dominance. If you rise to the top of search returns for a high volume query, you can just rack in cash with no marketing spend whatsoever for years, until somebody tries to come beat you.Colin:It's a really solid platform. The negatives are, of course, that Amazon is extremely impersonal as a company. It's hard to get people on the phone there, although we do have account managers now. It is expensive. They take 25 to 30% margin share all in when you end up calculating all the fees from most companies, which is a really, really difficult thing for a lot of small businesses to swallow. And then you wind up paying them more to advertise on their platform to give them money when you make a sale. And so they're really a good partner in a number of ways. They do a lot of really great things for their companies, especially the small business partners, but, overall it's a love, hate relationship for sure. And you can do one thing wrong and get your whole listing pulled. And that can be really devastating too. So overall for me, it's a no brainer because if more than half of your audience is starting a product search on a specific channel, you have to be on that channel, period. End of story. Even if you're only doing it for branded searches.Stephanie:Completely agree. So earlier you were talking about working with PR firms and different efforts to bring new people, new customers, your way. How do you guys have your backend set up to be able to handle fulfillments? What does your tech stack look like to be able to handle any surges in demand?Colin:Surges in demand are actually difficult because we... forecasting demand is extremely difficult. Forecasting inventory becomes extremely difficult and then you put those two things together and you have to forecast the amount of people that you have working on your warehouse team at any point in time, which is extremely difficult. And so when it comes to surges and spikes, we use a 3PL, third party logistics provider, to ship out all of our orders, both on our website and on Amazon. We do FBM on Amazon, instead of FDA. And so we are basically able to get probably 99% of orders shipped out within a 24 hour period. But when we do have big surges and big backlogs it can slip to 72 hours.Colin:Because we are paying for that 3PL service, they have a finite amount of people that they've forecasted to work on their thousand brand partners that use that share of the warehouse space. And it's a really good way to lower the cost overall and then, from a small warehouse operation, if you're running it yourself, because you're sharing that square footage with so many other brands and you're sharing a labor with so many other brands And it's a pretty straightforward process nowadays in terms of hooking up a 3PL. In the beginning for the first six months of the company, October 2018, through March 2019, I was shipping out almost every box myself, along with a three person team in Denver, Colorado. We had our own warehouse space. We had 1,000 square feet. We were packaging. We could do maybe 250 orders a day maximum. And we were just trying to burn getting through holiday 2018 on our own.Colin:It was crazy. It was so [crosstalk] hectic. I think I shipped 3,000 boxes in a three week period at one point in time with the rest of my team, working eight hours, 10 hours a day in the warehouse and buy everybody lunch every day. And it was great. I had my customer service team and they're working with me. But yeah, it was definitely a lot easier when you can scale up and use the 3PL. I do have some companies that run their own warehouse space that actually wind up with all the headaches that it comes with and migraines that it comes with. They do wind up having a lower cost per unit in terms of fulfillment than we do, so there's certainly something to be said for that. But I think that right now we're at the 3PL stage for sure.Stephanie:Yep. That makes sense. All right. So we have not too long left, so I want to jump into the lightning round because I think you're going to have some good or funny answers. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud, our sponsors. They're amazing. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Colin:Okay, I am ready.Stephanie:The first one, what is the biggest fail that comes to mind when starting a DTC company that you experienced?Colin:Our packaging was white in the beginning.Stephanie:Were they white walls, white sheets, white, everything?Colin:Well, the inside of the packaging was purple and the outside was white and our packaging was lovely. We've got knapsacks to wrap the sheets. We've got free eye masks in every box. It's lovely, but a white exterior box sent through any postal service is going to get absolutely destroyed. And so that was our biggest fail was we had boxes just showing up, just beat the hell from FedEx and UPS. And so we moved in, I believe, mid 2019 to purple exteriors and that's allowed us to be much more efficient with our shipping and have much better customer experience.Stephanie:That's good. I can imagine getting a white box knowing that my bedding is inside it going, "Ooh."Colin:So dominant. And so to protect them, we had to put them in polymailers and in brown cardboard boxes, which was a huge waste for the first six months of the company. Then we had people call us out on it. And I was like, "You're absolutely right. This is so dumb. Why are we doing this?" And so now we just slap a label on the outside the purple box, and it's so much better. Additionally, minor thing, a major thing, minor thing. We had plastic in the packaging for the first six months. We had a little plastic sheet around the sheets, inside the knapsack to keep them safe from any water damage during transit. And we got a couple of complaints from people, really peaceful, nice messages saying, "Hey, I expect better from a sustainability company to put plastic in the packaging, even if it's recyclable." And we said, "Okay." And so we removed the plastic and we put in tissue wrap now for a final piece of protection.Colin:So there's no markings on the sheets and I'm thrilled to have eliminated that plastic. And now we've shipped out tens of thousands of orders since then with zero plastic packaging. In fact, we're the only bedding company in the world that does not vacuum seal our comforters. And they ship in the box, ready to go directly on the bed straight from the box, no [crosstalk]Stephanie:That's a good one. I hadn't even thought about that and I was wondering, are you having issues so far? But if not, more people should be doing that.Colin:Oh, we had issues. We just replace them. I mean, it costs us money. Like, FedEx will rip a box and then they'll get damaged and they'll leave it outside in the rain and it'll get waterlogged, so we definitely have that. But I think it's worth it to eliminate the amount of plastic that we're saving.Stephanie:Yeah, I like it. What's up next on your Netflix queue?Colin:Oh. I just started Ratched last night.Stephanie:How is it? It looked too scary for me. I'm a baby.Colin:It's really good. You know, I like stuff like that that's a little trippy, and I'm also a huge Marvel nerd, so I'm still waiting for the next Marvel series, but that's a Disney Plus queue, so I cannot wait for WandaVision and Falcon and the Winter Soldier and the Mandalorian is in two weeks as well, so I'm really excited for that.Stephanie:You've got your whole queue set up. I like it.Colin:Yeah, I love that stuff.Stephanie:Well, I know you said people aren't readers, but do you have anything coming up on your reading list?Colin:Yes, I just started The Everything Store.Stephanie:Oh yeah, that's a good one.Colin:And I'm surprised I haven't read it yet, actually. And then I'm trying to read things from a different cultural perspective because I'm a 30-year-old white male who mostly hangs out with other 30-year-old white males, and so I've got a book called Well Behaved Indian Women that I just started, and I'm really enjoying it. It's a totally different cultural perspective. It's so foreign to me and it's really, really great to immerse myself in that. I'm trying to think if there's anything else up next, but those are the two big ones.Stephanie:I'll have to try that out. What new E-Commerce tool are you trying out right now or having success with?Colin:Oh, it's something called Gives, and I should get a referral fee for this. So basically, it is this really cool thing we're doing to allow people after check-out to, when they buy something, donate a percentage of their order to the charity of their choosing. So we just tested it this week for Prime Day because we had our Prime Day deal on Amazon and we had a lower percentage off on our website, but you could donate another percentage of your order as well, so it actually ended up being a lower price but part of that was donated versus just going into your pocket and it's really cool.Colin:So now, our customers moving forward, and we're trying to decide if we want to do this on only special occasions or on every day type of thing. We already plant a tree for every order, now we're going to be able to let our customers donate 10% or so of their order to a cause of their choosing, which I think is a really, really, really cool thing. I just don't know if the dollars and cents work, so we're testing it out to see what that looks like.Stephanie:Awesome. Yeah, that sounds like a good implementation. All right, the last one. What one thing will have the biggest impact on E-Commerce in the next year?Colin:I mean, COVID. COVID.Stephanie:Yeah.Colin:No doubt. It's blown up E-Commerce on a five to six year type of acceleration. The amount of people that are shopping online versus in-store has just grown dramatically, and I think that we're probably in this environment for another six to nine months, until a vaccine rolls out. So I think that this trend will only continue, and I think that that's been a huge, huge driver of E-Commerce, and I think it's both good and bad, obviously. It can be good for some industries and horrific for others, so it's also a logistics issue and everybody listening out there, when you order stuff online right now, it's not the brand's fault if it takes 14 days to get to you. FedEx is trying to hire 70,000 people by Christmas and they're not going to hit that, they're going to hit like 50,000, which is still a dramatic undertaking. But the amount of packages going out right now is just overwhelming the system that we built.Stephanie:Completely agree. All right, Colin, this has been a fun interview. Where can people find out more about Sheets and Giggles and yourself?Colin:I'm a pretty private person. I do have a public Twitter, Colin D. McIntosh. Sheets and Giggles, you can google us. SheetsGiggles.com is the website, no "and" in the URL, just SheetsGiggles.com, and then we're also on Amazon if you want to search for our sheets there, Sheets and Giggles. [inaudible] the sheets. And yeah, pretty easy to find. And then our social media, SheetsGiggles, so it's just at SheetsGiggles everywhere. On Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. We're a good follow, we promise. We don't just post pictures of our products all the time and people buy them. And we just hit 10,000 followers on Instagram, which I'm really excited about. We've never paid for a single follower, so it's fun to build this organic following over time.Stephanie:Oh, that's great. Yeah. Nice work there.Colin:Thanks.Stephanie:All right, Colin. Thanks so much for coming on. This has been a blast and we'll have to have you on again in the future.Colin:Thanks so much for having me. Hopefully when I come back on next time, we're a much bigger company and everybody's like, "Oh yeah, I've heard of that brand."Stephanie:They will have heard of it. Don't you worry.Colin:I hope so.

Ask and you shall receive! We did a survey of our audience a few months back, and the number one requested topic was influencer marketing. And for good reason! Influencer marketing has infiltrated every industry and has the ability to drive large ROI if done correctly. But many new or smaller brands are wondering if they can take part in this marketing channel. And the answer is yes! Eric Lam, is the co-founder of AspireIQ, and he is here to explain how the industry has become democratized and any brand can take part in it, as long as they go about it the right way.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he gets into all of that and more, including why he bet big on the idea of influencers when it was still a radical idea used mostly by large companies with large celebrities. Today, Eric says that there are certain mistakes that many companies are making when it comes to working with influencers, and he details exactly how you should go about measuring the ROI from your influencer strategy. Plus, Eric explains why he thinks platforms like TikTok are undervalued and he predicts the future of how the world of influencer marketing will grow. Main Takeaways:The ROI of the Storm: Understanding the attribution funnel of influencer marketing is a key metric to determine the ROI of your efforts. But what if there are other aspects of the partnership that should be considered, that many brands are missing?Can I See Your Manager?: One of the biggest challenges of influencer marketing is managing the various influencers you work with and the logistics of tracking and shipping the products your influencers are promoting. Building a platform and communication structure that solves that problem is what sets influencer community management companies apart.Democracy Now: Part of what social media has done is democratize content creation. Previously, brands and those with money were in control of what content was created, when, and who could see it. Now, individuals have the same capabilities in the palms of their hands, which not only leads to better content, but opens the door to revenue streams and opportunities for regular people to become influencers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome to the Up Next In Commerce Podcast, I'm your host, Stephanie Postles. Co-Founder at mission.org. Today, we're talking all things influencers, but the co-founder of AspireIQ, Eric Lam. Eric, nice to meet you.Eric:Great to meet you as well. Thanks for having me.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm excited to have you on so no pressure, but we did a survey of our audience, and the number one thing that everyone wanted to hear about was influencers. Early, like we got dozens of responses of [crosstalk 00:00:32].Eric:Love to hear it.Stephanie:Yeah. This is the perfect interview.Eric:Fantastic. Well, that's really helpful for me to hear, especially for my team work in sales.Stephanie:There you go. Tell me a little bit about what is AspireIQ.Eric:We're a platform for brands to build and engage communities of influential people from traditional social media influencers to top customers and brand fans to experts and more. We actually started back in 2013. Even though it's mainstream now, back then, influencer marketing was a pretty new concept. Frankly, the idea of businesses using Instagram back then in a meaningful way was pretty rare. Of course, now 93% of brands and kind of based on your survey, it sounds like that's increasing, are using influencer marketing as a core part of their digital and social media strategies, and we're lucky to be partnered with over 300 brands on the platform from some of the biggest names like Samsung to leading [inaudible] brands like Glossier and Purple Mattress.Stephanie:Amazing. Tell me a little bit, how is the platform design? If I'm a new customer, what would I experience when I enter a platform and what do I get out of it?Eric:Yeah. Even back in the day, I think pretty much from the beginning, some of the biggest problems we've tried to solve in influencer marketing have come down to three parts, finding the right influencers to work with in terms of creating content and promoting your brand, to managing the complex workflow between your brand and potentially hundreds of influencers in your community, to analyzing the impact of these influencer communities on your marketing goals. I think that where we've really made our bread and butter is that second one, the building workflow. That's because if any of your listeners have built influencer marketing programs, and actually in our early days, probably our first two years, we didn't have our own software, so we experienced this ourselves when we were running influencer campaigns for our clients.Eric:The real work that goes into this is all the communication and the cumbersome project management, the data organization, the contracts, the product shipping, the payments, and just keeping track of all this stuff in one place, especially if you're working with more than, say 10 influencers at a given time, like that's where the real work is. That's where we really focused on building a platform that can provide meaningful scale to clients building this in a sophisticated way. I think at this point, we've got a range of sophistication levels from fortune 500 companies who have seven different teams working across different countries with outside agencies and the corporate office, to some of the biggest DTC brands in the world who have kind of built their secret sauce in influencer marketing, and almost need to design this customized system within our platform for how to do influencer marketing. So, it's come a long way in terms of the sophistication level that a lot of our clients have had.Stephanie:That's awesome. Since 2013, what kind of shifts in the market have you seen? Because when I think about influencers, especially back in the day, it's like, if you don't have a Kardashian, you don't have an influencer. Now it seems like way more about like micro influencers who have a trusted audience and people actually buy what they want. What kind of things have you seen like shifts in the market?Eric:Yeah, it's evolved in a lot of different, really interesting ways. You're exactly right. I think in the early days, well, frankly in the really early days, when we first started, almost no one was doing influencer marketing, which was obviously tough for our business because we were trying to go to every brand and convince them to spend even like a hundred bucks on an influencer.Stephanie:They're like, no, thanks. Out of budget.Eric:Yeah. I think that was already like pulling teeth. I think, back then, I think the only brands doing this were probably these emerging ecommerce brands where ... they can't compete on traditional advertising, so Instagram had become this place where they discovered already consumers were coming there to learn about what to buy, what to do, where to go. That was true, even though back then Instagram wasn't this kind of commercialized or sponsor place the way it is today. But even in our early days, what kept us going is that we talked to so many ecommerce brands and consistently what we heard was the biggest channel that they were focusing on was social media and specifically influencer marketing.Eric:Then I think, yeah, after a few years, maybe like 2015 and 2016, the industry kind of evolve to what you were talking about, where everybody was trying to work with Kardashians. It was all about working with the biggest fashion bloggers, the biggest celebrities. The bigger, the better. And you're thinking about these vanity metrics, like how many followers someone has, or how many likes they have, regardless of if they saw meaningful returns on investment. Those were the early cowboy days of influencer marketing. I think because of a lot of the mainstream brands got involved there, you started to then see an evolution of how a lot of the DTC, a lot of ecommerce brands were starting to think about influencer marketing because they were kind of getting priced out of these big macro celebrities.Eric:So, they started honing in on more specialized micro influencers, like you mentioned, who, they might not have as big of a following, but they were a lot more targeted, a lot more focused in the concept of created, which meant they were a great fit for more personalized experiences, more authentic content in terms of the segments they were trying to reach among their customers. I think the second thing that was really interesting about the way this evolved is that these same ecommerce brands started using influencers for more than just trying to reach their audiences like in an advertising way, and they started looking at them as holistic content creators, because when you think about what an influencer is, they're kind of like this studio photographer model all wrapped into one person, whose literal job it is to make engaging content for this generation.Eric:These brands started re-purposing a lot of their content and using it in all their different channels, from paid advertising, to ecommerce website, to email marketing and more because content became this King of everything they wanted to do across digital. Today, I think that's kind of even more the case where you're looking at even more long tail influencers, and even people that aren't considered traditional social media influencers, but are really important to the brands and their strategies from marketing perspective. Brands might be building programs where they're combining influencers, but they're also combining those with top customers, power users, experts, working professionals who do customer referrals, whichever groups of people who have the greatest word of mouth impact on the customers and trying to win over, regardless of if they have a social media following or not. I think it's a really exciting phase of influencer marketing we're heading into, where it really includes, even democratize, where brands are kind of looking for these authentic voices, no matter where they come from.Stephanie:Yep. I love that. Yeah, I was just going to say, it feels like now there's so much more opportunity for anyone to have an influencer if you find the right person, whereas before, not so much. But if you're thinking about finding an influencer in your space or finding someone to partner with or using your platform to find some, what kind of metrics would you look at to make sure they're a good fit? What should a brand be looking for to be like, "ah, this is my perfect person?"Eric:Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to what the goals of this influencer program is. But I think, at the end of the day, a lot of that comes down to subjective type of qualities. Obviously, you can see if they have a big following, you can see if they have really high engagement rates, but at the end of the day, you want to look at, what are people talking about in their comment section? What's the type of narrative they're kind of build with their audience? And does that really resonate with the type of nuanced audience segment that you're trying to build with your audiences? Because that tells you a lot about how they're going to co-create this narrative with you.Eric:That's really what we tell people when we give them advice is, you should really be building relationships with these influencers and treat them as a part of your community rather than looking at it as a transaction. I think that one of the biggest mistakes I see a lot is that, people will look at influencer marketing almost as like buying ad space, and it's really not like buying ad space because content creators are people.Stephanie:Yeah, these are people.Eric:Yeah, these are people who have these like nuanced feelings about the content they make, what they feel comfortable with, what's authentic to them. This is like their livelihood. Communicating with that level of empathy is really important, and if you can find people that really match your brand values and are going to be true advocates for you, that really translates into the authenticity, both from what they're saying, but also the kind of content they make because influencer marketing is pretty mature now and audiences can smell inauthenticity from a mile away. So, it matters a lot to find people that really believe in your brand.Stephanie:How do you go about making sure that a relationship is built on your platform and that someone's not just going through and being like, "Okay, bye. I want this." How do you develop or encourage a relationship to be built before they start working together?Eric:Yeah, I think a lot of times, frankly, sometimes it starts not necessarily with a kind of a official collaboration or with an official contract or anything like that. A lot of brands, what they do is they'll do what's called product seeding, and they'll send these gift bags out to influencers or micro influencers. A lot of people try out the products. If they like the products, they'll have them give feedback, they'll invite them to some events, they'll have them be part of some community activities before they really kind of like level them up into true ambassadors for the brand that have these more formalized contracts and agreements and payment structures and things like that. I think, obviously not all of that is necessary, but it kind of creates this much more organic experience, where ambassadors almost like come to you or are built with you, rather than just saying to every person, hey, we've got this $10,000 campaign and here you go, who wants the money? Kind of going based on much more of a transactional experience.Eric:That's one way to go. I think other ways to go are influencers who can come to you and are creating a more of an inbound experience. What we see a lot is brands setting up kind of these programs and looking for new ambassadors and new influencers to the program. A lot of times those might be smaller, but getting people to kind of sign up when they're small, when they have smaller followings is a great way to almost like build this farm system of up and coming influencers that are working with you in their early days so that when they become really big and famous. Obviously they've been kind of long-term supporters, long-term advocates of your brand for quite a while.Stephanie:Yep. That's great. Yeah, I think I've mentioned a few times in different episodes that I was ... I forget who I was listening to, where they're discussing influencers and how to pick them, but they said you should zero in on the comments and how their followers are actually engaging, because if they're engaging in one way where it's just like, oh, that's pretty, I like that shirt or something, that might not actually be an influential person you should work with versus someone who's saying, "Where can I buy that shirt right now?" If you see a lot of that in the comments, even if they're small, like they have people waiting to buy whatever they wear. I thought that was always a good reminder.Eric:Yeah, totally. I think that a lot of times, that that comes from some of these smaller influencers, because they're so focused on the type of content they make and their audiences really trust them with that messaging. I think a lot of influencers just understand that when they take these sponsorship deals, they're doing it in a way where they really need to make sure it looks, and it is the fact that they really care about this brand. They believe in the values, they believe in the product. I think audiences are really attuned to that, and I think they can pick up on that.Stephanie:Yep. I agree. In previous episodes, we've had a lot of guests tell us that it's been really hard to accurately measure the ROI of an influencer campaign. A couple of people have tried it or quite a few of them have tried it, but they just didn't know if they got the results or they didn't know how long until I see results. What do you advise around, how do you make sure to measure things in a way that you can see an ROI or not, and when should they expect to see some kind of success?Eric:Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, it is actually challenging. I think it's because, the reason is because I think influencer marketing sits at this unique intersection of brand and performance marketing where it's a little bit of both. I think if you're looking at as only one or only the other one, you're almost like undervaluing what you have in your influencer program. We actually have this internal marketing strategy team that works with all of our clients, and their job is basically to design this type of thing. Like, how are you going to measure the overall ROI of your program? Because it's so unique to every client. In terms of brand awareness, obviously that stuff is relatively straight forward. Like, how many views am I getting? How many video minutes are watched? How much engagement there are? What's the audience demographics that I'm trying to reach?Eric:Obviously this is an ecommerce podcast, so most people are interested in, how am I generating sales? That's where it gets really interesting, because like you said, it's not the easiest thing in the world to build the full attribution funnel for influencer marketing. Why is that? It's because all of this content sits somewhere that isn't pixel. It sits not on your own channel, and not even on your own Facebook. It sits on the influencer's Instagram page or their YouTube, and not all the time there's easy ways to click out of links. What we typically do is we build a combination of indirect and direct metrics to give you a sense of how your program is performing. There's definitely lots of ways to measure direct conversions. There's link tracking, coupon code redemptions, affiliate links, landing page sign-ups.Eric:Typically, those are very good ways of seeing directly attributable sales. Especially if you've built kind of this really great long tail of ambassadors who are all doing, like I said, whether your product seeding them, you're seeding them these gaskets, and you're not necessarily asking for anything, where you're building potentially hundreds or thousands of ambassadors who are ... you might not have a ton of following, but they really believe in the product and they're kind of posting about you. You'll start to see a lot of return in terms of referrals on that program, just based on kind of their channels clicking into those links and go into your website and buying things, something like that. But a lot of the times, when you're talking about influencer posts, because there's not an easy way to click out of this, of the posts, we tend to look at more indirect measures because a lot of times what happens is a consumer sees a post, they see the brand and then they exit to a browser and they go directly to the website.Eric:We say is that, hey, look at the indirect measures like referral sources from social channels, and that includes things like the Instagram shopping and checkout, which Facebook is investing a ton of money into all types of ways of commercializing your social channels. Then of course, there's the value of the content itself, which has been really interesting. Like I said, a lot of ecommerce brands are looking at these influencers as content creation vehicles, and so there's obviously the cost that it would've cost to create, potentially hundreds of purpose-built photos and videos, but what's even more is, what's the value of having 10 times the number of assets to personalize all these digital customer journeys from your paid ads, your ecommerce, your email marketing, and almost always what we see is our performance marketing clients will have an overall increase in their ROAS, but thanks to this kind of ongoing pipeline of constant.Eric:I think the last one that's super interesting thing has been really game changing over the last couple of years is actually using influencer channels themselves as paid ad vehicles. There's actually ... obviously there's easy functionality to boost posts that perform well, but there's actually, for in channels like Instagram, if an influencer has a business account, there's an option to grant advertiser access to a third party so that you can actually run a wide diversity of paid ads using the influencers content, where the ads are coming from the influencers channel themselves. This actually gives marketers almost this infinite number of channels to test on and has been an absolute game changer for brands looking to build more sophisticated paid social strategies. All those things are kind of like in combination, obviously are this complex web of how do you value the ROI of an influencer, but it's because there's this huge diversity of the ways that you could utilize them depending on your marketing strategy.Stephanie:That's great. Yeah. That's a really good summary, especially that last point. I don't think I have heard that, or I was not aware that you could leverage their accounts and kind of post from under their accounts. Yeah, that seems to be interesting.Eric:Yeah, it's little known, but it's become a lot more popularized, I think recently. Obviously you want to make sure that you have a firm agreement with the influencer. This is something that in our platform we kind of wrap up in a bow for you to be able to request, but obviously you're using their content, you're getting the right approvals from them, so they don't have their channel advertising to people or using content that they're not comfortable with. But assuming that they are, it's actually a win-win for both parties, because essentially what's happening is, as a brand, you're kind of leveraging them as a voice for your brand to kind of new audiences. For them, they're reaching new audiences themselves and in a way that can kind of get them more followers and more reach.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. I could see there being a bit of like, making sure that whatever you write is in their voice, or is it like pretty transparent that this is a brand takeover of their account?Eric:I think it's typically a collaboration, and a lot of times what we'll advise is that, definitely having the influencer sign off on all the language and making sure that they're comfortable with what they're saying, because you don't want to get ... definitely don't want to misrepresent what they're saying, and it is in a partnership between brand and creator.Stephanie:Yep. Got it. All right. A little story time. First, we'll start with, what are some of the biggest missteps that you've seen brands experience when they've tried to set up their own influencer partnerships? What are some horror stories that you've heard in the industry? You know I like failure.Eric:Yeah, definitely I think a couple of common things that I see, and again, they kind of relate to this idea that, hey, these influencers are ads basically, and that leads to behaviors, like I said about not building relationships. I talked about that one already, but I think another one is basically taking too risk averse of an approach in the creative process. I won't name specific brands, but I think, especially when you're talking about like the bigger brands in the industry, the Fortune 500 brands, a lot of them struggle with the idea of kind of like merging their influencer strategy with their creative strategy, because they typically have this really rigid process of guidelines and brand safety that they apply usually to kind of $25,000 to $50,000 photo shoots, and they want to apply that same framework to influencers.Eric:And they're like, cool. They have to do this set of 20 guidelines, they have to check all these boxes in terms of what they're going to say, they have to say it in this way, and in this tone. At the end of the day, that just doesn't work because people are smart. Consumers are smart. Consumers know when something is super forced and inauthentic. At the end of the day, the whole point of working with influencers is that you're co-creating a narrative. You're supposed to be harnessing the personality and the creativity that's unique to each person, and by forcing them to kind of fit in this tightly defined box that is so clearly branded, that just leads to poor performing content. It's kind of defeating the purpose of using influencers in the first place. I would say that's the biggest misstep I tend to see, and it is typical among, I would say like the bigger brands in the industry.Stephanie:Got it. I could see brands, especially smaller ones, trying to find, of course, untapped influencers. What industries do you think there are a bunch of influencers that maybe you guys haven't even tapped into, and what's maybe bringing this question about, as I just did a recap episode with one of my coworkers around like the first 50 episodes, and we were talking about shoppable gaming and unreal and how there's influencers in these game worlds and how shopping is going to be in there soon. I was like, oh, it seems like there could be a lot of virtual influencers that maybe aren't tapped, but are there any industries like that where you're like, oh, we're exploring this or we see this being big in the future, but we haven't actually fully gotten it yet?Eric:Yeah. Well, I would say, even though it's been incredibly popularized in the last year or so, I would say TikTok is still wildly undervalued. I think not enough brands understand that TikTok has this enormous breadth and depth of not only audiences, but content creators, because I'm 38 years old and I look at a lot of like Parenting TikTok, I look at a lot of the Home Depot TikTok. It's so different than I think most perceptions are of, oh, it's just funny videos or teenagers dancing and things like that, because there's such a diversity of content and audience within TikTok that I think only a handful of brands are really taking advantage of. That's definitely, I would say a big focus for us going forward, is kind of getting in deep with tech talk and making sure that our brands can be successful there.Eric:I would say more to specifically your question around industries, I would say a lot of industries that we've seen that have kind of more emerging, I would say "influencers," not necessarily traditionally defined influencers, are more like professional fields. For example, one of my friends from business school named Trina Spear, she's founded this company FIGS Scrubs. I think they've had the strategy probably for ... maybe since they were founded, where they've almost created influencers out of nurses and doctors where, when they first started, there were no nurse influencers or doctor influencers or anything like that. But they started partnering with all these people that could just create really great content, and they might just be people in that professional field people that might have 500 followers, but posted really cool content and they would send the product, get them involved, get them bought into the mission and the vision of the brand.Eric:Now a lot of those people, they have tens of thousands of followers because of the partnership they've done with FIGS, and FIGS is an incredibly popular brand among the healthcare industry now, and has a really, really loyal following across ... up and down nurses and doctors and everything else.Stephanie:That's really cool. Yeah, I think we had FIGS on our list. I have to check with Hillary on that, but I think we had them potentially coming on maybe so. Yeah, that's really cool to hear how they do that.Eric:They're great. I look forward to listening to that one.Stephanie:Cool. How do you onboard new influencers, and who are some names of people that I would know? Because even though it's kind of vanity, I'm sure everyone listening is like, well, who are some names that I would know in your platform?Eric:Yeah. Interestingly, we don't really take that kind of approach when it comes to influencers, because a lot of times our influencers are brand-driven. What we try to do is we try to provide a system of record and a platform for our brands to manage all of their influencer programs themselves. This is actually an industry choice we've made, I think back in the founding of the company, where we decided pretty early that we were not going to win based on us having the most influencers or us having access to talent agencies or communities of people, because frankly, we were basically four guys who came from either a gaming company or a hedge fund, and so we were not going to win based on who we knew.Eric:What we decided to do is we said, okay, what we're going to do is we're going to build a platform that has incredible workflow and ability to scale up these influencer programs and have brands build the tools they need to manage them, and those brands will essentially onboard and essentially, almost onboard the influencers onto our platform themselves. It's actually played out pretty well where we now have hundreds of thousands of influencers on the platform. I think in a 95% of cases, those influencers were brought by some brand that we had on our platform who essentially invited those influencers themselves to the AspireIQ platform. This has been a really great way of feeding.Stephanie:Oh, that's smart.Eric:... a marketplace where when ... in [inaudible] teach about like, when you start a marketplace, you have to create standalone value for one of the sides, and that was our [inaudible] standalone value for the brands that they would essentially attract the influencers to the platform because we just didn't have them.Stephanie:Let's talk about the early days a little bit. I saw that you had worked at Pocket Gems, and I think it said you led a very large team who was mostly accountable for like 80 million in annual revenue. I want to hear a bit about your background and what you did at Pocket Gems that maybe helped influence AspireIQ.Eric:Yeah. I started my career in finance actually before business school, which is really disappointing for my dad because my dad was a computer science professor, so I didn't get into technology immediately the way that he wanted. But yeah, after business school, I went to Pocket Gems. Yeah, started as a product manager, built a couple of games there. Pocket Gems, for some background, is a mobile app gaming company. Really, it was an incredible experience because gaming, especially back then, I mean, you think about like, this pre-Zynga IPO and all the kind of the rise of mobile gaming, and everything was extremely data-driven and fast paced. It was a great environment to learn about how to build products that can grow and scale really quickly.Eric:But I think the biggest thing it taught me was essentially how much mobile and social were going to change the world, and pretty much changed the world so much more than I had ever conceptualized, I think, before joining, in almost a similar way with the way the internet changed everything in the late '90s. It's because of the fact that we have this super computer in our pockets that's like a high-definition video camera that makes any of this stuff possible. I think, as we were building games there, as we were building apps, as we were doing user acquisition, I could tell, based on the things that were working and the channels that we were working for, for our own growth, that all this was happening here organically. When you looked at social media, everyone can create this amazing content that's just as relevant and meaningful as what's done in studio, and it's completely democratized, giving a voice to anybody with a mobile phone and social media.Eric:I wanted to work on something following that, that could take advantage or basically capitalize on the fact that the world is essentially changing from what I call companies to people. Because when you open your phone, you look at most content nowadays, chances are it's something that a regular person made. It's not a company. It was kind of obvious, at the time, to a lot of us that were founding the company that people were going to be at the center of how these businesses or brands were built. That's what we were focused on doing. We didn't have it all figured out in terms of what we would do or the product we would build. We started with social media and went from there, but we just knew it was around this idea that brands and building a brand, building a marketing strategy needed to be much more people oriented, and around this idea that mobile and social were going to change the world.Stephanie:When you launched into aspire IQ, what were some maybe hiccups or missteps that you guys made in the beginning when trying to figure out this marketplace and building the platform, anything happened there of note?Eric:Yeah, it was funny because again, it was for people who didn't come from the marketing industry and we're trying to get into ... which I think, when I gave people advice, people would always ask me like, "Hey, are you going to ... should I start this company? I really want to do a startup." A lot of times the advice I give is, "Look, if this is something you have to do, it shouldn't matter what I say, that you're going to do it." I think this was really interesting thing where we all had this intense belief that this was going to be a thing, that this would work, even though none of us had come from the industry. I think, because none of us had come from the industry, that really put us at this disadvantage for, who to talk to. We were really scrapping trying to find our first sales and talk to any ecommerce brands that would listen to us, talk to any brands that would listen to us.Eric:It was such early days that we couldn't even charge any money for the product we made. We built this product in about a year, and we basically had to give it away for free because people just didn't value it. They didn't understand why they should pay a platform for influencer marketing. I think we actually had to create ... is really funny. In our first outreaches to influencers even, we were trying to scrape together these first influencer campaigns where we had to pretend that we were the platform, but actually underneath, it was just the four of us trying to run and match-make with different influencers. But we were saying like ...Stephanie:[crosstalk] service.Eric:Yeah, but we were saying like, oh yeah, there's something really like technological going on under the hood. Don't worry [inaudible] the brands. But it was actually just us trying to run the different influencers saying, "Hey, look, can you please join this campaign?" We had to use the pseudonym actually, because nobody would respond to our emails among influencers. They didn't believe that we were a real company. We had to use pseudonyms of people that sounded more legitimate to make sure these influencers would respond to us.Stephanie:Oh, that's crazy.Eric:In the early days, again, not only were brands not really doing a lot of influencer marketing, but the influencers themselves weren't doing a lot of "influencer marketing" among sponsorship opportunities. This wasn't as much of a business for them, where they're already and set up to take a lot of these inbound requests. In the early days, that matchmaking process, like you said, was quite difficult. Of course, nowadays, it's almost like a machine where everybody ... if you have like 5,000 followers, you might even have a manager at this point. Yeah, in those early days, it was a lot of a lot of talking on the phone to explain who we were and what we were trying to do.Stephanie:Yeah. That's great. I think that also is such an advantage that when you don't come from the industry, it reminds me of like us building up this media company like none of us really knew what we were doing in the early days, but from your perspective, I could see a lot of people thinking about building an influencer company and being like, I need to partner with Hollywood, I need to go to CAA. There's a certain way things are done around here. I think that's actually a huge advantage when you don't really know what you don't know and you just move forward and figure it out, and maybe do it differently.Eric:Yeah. I think that, that definitely helped us, I would say in the later stages of the company, because by the time, like I had said, in 2016, 2017, when this took off as an industry, we were one of the few companies that have built this as a true software platform, because all of this came from technology. So, how are we going to win? We weren't going to win because again, we were connected to the right people. So, we were just heads down, really building as much of the product we could essentially understand based on our own running of these campaigns. When the industry took off, we had assembled this immense product advantage versus a lot of our competitors that were essentially glorified agencies. Back then, I think a lot of companies were effectively ... because you might come from an agency, so you think that an agency is the way to solve this problem, this matchmaking problem.Eric:But what we saw was something much more nuanced, which was, okay after you've solved the matchmaking problem, what are you going to do with these influencers, and how are you going to make this a scalable program that will last the test of time? All those things were built into, essentially how do you create almost like a CRM workflow with analytics and all the different automation that we built into it that would be relevant, frankly, for people that weren't really doing anything back when we first started. We were basically lucky that we survived the first few years with almost like making no money, that we could make it to the maturity of the industry when our product became more relevant.Stephanie:Yeah, that's good. Because some people are a little too far ahead and you guys were ahead, but you ended up making it work, which is awesome.Eric:Yeah, absolutely.Stephanie:Now that we're talking a little bit about the future, I want to head into the future. What do you think the future of influencers looks like maybe in like five to 10 years?Eric:Yeah. I think that, like I said, I think influencer marketing is going to keep diversifying to ... just not people who necessarily have social media following it. I think it's going to be around who is influential for your brand specifically? Again, it could be professional, it could be experts, it could be customers. I think a lot of the brands we talk to that are on the bleeding edge, like a Glossier for example, is the gold standard, I would say, of this, who's one of our favorite partner customers. They figured out, I think first that, it doesn't really matter if you have this massive social following. They've built this community of fans, employees, even healthcare workers, things like that, and regardless of who you are, they do an incredible job of making you feel like a part of the community, probably because the brand started out of this shared love of Emily Weiss's beauty blog.Eric:Regardless if you have a following on social media, they highlight a lot of their community members in their marketing. They give them exclusive first looks so they can get feedback and build buzz around new product launches. They take an active interest in pretty much what all these different communities, how they respond to products, and that shapes a lot of the strategy that Glossier has as a brand. I would say they're one of the first, I would say community led brands. I would say that that's going to be, what I would say is the future of, not just influencer marketing, but building commerce brands in general, because what you see now it is there's such a dependence on third parties for a lot of ecommerce companies on generating leads from places like Facebook ads.Eric:That's almost becoming this increasing tax on the cost of doing business of running ecommerce. When you've built an advantage for a brand like Glossier, where you almost have your own channel of your community that generates all this buzz and brand awareness and referrals that, that becomes this competitive advantage, because you can build growth without relying on third parties doing all of your lead generation. I think that's what I'm really excited about as kind of the future of influencer marketing, but also the future of kind of commerce in the way brands will start to own their own communities and their own channels.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a great answer. I think that's the gold standard that a lot of brands probably want to figure out is like, how do you build that community that you can leverage and not always having to rely on external customer acquisition? But it'd be interesting to dive into their model of like, how do they actually build that up and build that community of fans to then have that network to launch to with their products and whatnot?Stephanie:All right, cool. With a few minutes left, let's dive into the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to throw a question your way and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Eric?Eric:Fantastic. Ready. Stephanie:What's up next on your reading list?Eric:Ooh. I think that one book that I really love and just read is a book by Carrie Melissa Jones called Building Brand Communities. She goes into a lot about how you ... similar to the Glossier example, you really need to co-create an experience of communities with shared values, kind of mutual benefit, how is your community going to interact with you as a brand? I love that book. We actually sent it to I think all of our customers.Stephanie:Oh, nice. I'll have to check that out. That sounds like a good one. What is the best piece of advice you ever received?Eric:Yeah, I think the best advice I ever received was either from like a personal or professional level, are you growing as a person? Are you scaling? Are you developing new skills? I give that advice either to employees at the company or people who are asking you for advice. A lot of it has to do, its just kind of acceleration in any way that makes sense or is meaningful to you.Stephanie:I love that. That is good. What's up next on your Netflix queue. What are you enjoying these days?Eric:Oh, wow. Netflix. I just started watching Killing Eve. I think it's an older show, but that's ...Stephanie:Okay, is it good?Eric:Yeah. I love that show. I don't know if I'm as big of a fan of Sandra Oh, but it's a BBC show, and I love pretty much all BBC shows.Stephanie:Okay. I'll have check that out. I have not even heard of that one. What do you wish you understood better right now? It could be a trend, it could be a piece of tech, anything.Eric:I think the thing I wish I understood better is how Silicon Valley works. What's funny is we've never been kind of the favored child, I would say, of the tech industry here and in terms of raising money and things like that. I think marketing has never been the sexy object, the way crypto and those things were. I think I wish I understood the way VCs thought better.Stephanie:All right, Eric. Well, this has been a really fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and AspireIQ?Eric:Yeah. Definitely you can check out aspireiq.com/upnext. Yeah, we've got some interesting reading there. We've definitely got a case study on Purple Mattress and a bunch of other cool stuff to read.Stephanie:Ooh, nice. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining. We will have to have you back for round two, maybe even in person in the studio in the future.Eric:Hopefully the world works out that way. Thank you so much, Stephanie. It's great to be on. Fun time.

In this episode, Holy Cross professor Stephanie Yuhl reconnects with friend and former student Meg Griffiths '04.  They reminisce about Meg's days on campus, and reflect upon the many ways that the Holy Cross Mission and its pursuit of social justice is evident throughout Meg's life and career. Interview originally recorded on July 31, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Meg: I think people who come to the dialogue table… they come because they’re in touch with something that means a lot to them, and they care enough to show up and listen and try to muddle through with people who they know occupy different positions.  And to me, that’s a sign of hope in and of itself: that people are willing to come to the table. And that they have a shared commitment to making some kind of change, making their community better, making space for more voices and rehumanizing the “other.” Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I’m your host, Maura Sweeney ‘07, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross.  I’m delighted to welcome you to today’s show. Maura: In this episode we hear from Meg Griffiths from the class of 2004.  Meg can be described as an educator, space maker, practitioner of dialogue, crafter of questions, and human can opener.  Ever since graduating from Holy Cross, Meg has pursued mission-focused work. After starting her career with the Jesuit Volunteers Corps in New Orleans, her journey has evolved to include work in the nonprofit sector and higher education. Today, she works for Essential Partners, an organization who partners with communities and organizations around the globe, equipping them to navigate the values, beliefs and identities that are essential to them.  Her work showcases the importance of dialogue and connection in order to build trust and support mutual understanding among diverse groups of people.  Stephanie Yuhl, Professor of History, Gender, Sexuality, & Women's Studies, and Peace and Conflict Studies, reconnects with Meg to speak about her life and career.  Their conversation is filled with mutual admiration and respect, stemming from Meg’s time as a student at Holy Cross.  The importance of living the Holy Cross Mission is interwoven throughout the conversation. Despite coming to Holy Cross not knowing what a Jesuit was, Meg has lived a life devoted to the Jesuit values of social justice ever since. Stephanie: Hi, Megan, it's Stephanie. Meg: Hi, Stephanie. It's Meg. Stephanie: How are you doing Meg? I'm so excited that we get this chance to spend some time together and to talk about interesting things related to you and Holy Cross. I have to say, whenever I think of students that to me, have really lived out the mission, you see the T-shirts at Holy Cross that say Live the Mission, and I think that certain people actually really do that and you're always at the top of the list of that, so thanks for sharing your time with us today. Meg: Thank you, Stephanie. When I think about my Holy Cross experience, you are one of the people that regularly comes to mind. So, this is a pure joy to have some Zoom time with you these days in this weird, strange time we're in. Stephanie: It is and hopefully the listeners won't be bored with our mutual admiration society that we're having. Let's get started and let's talk about Holy Cross and you and then, we'll move into your life and career. Tell me why did you choose Holy Cross? What was it about the school that attracted you and how did you move through Holy Cross during your time there? Meg: Yeah. So, I was looking at colleges in the late '90s but before I actually stumbled into Holy Cross, this glossy, beautiful materials that came my way in the old school snail mail, my sister was looking at colleges and she's a couple years older than me. We are very different people in all kinds of ways. My parents had taken my sister to do a New England college tour and Julie came home, very uninterested in Holy Cross and my mom said to me, "Megan, I found the perfect college for you, because your sister is not interested." So, it was sort of planted in the back of my head, before I actively started looking at colleges and I just loved it when I stepped on campus. Meg: I think a lot of Holy Cross students say this, they have this experience of sort of feeling something when they come to campus. My mom said she could read it all over my face, but it really sort of met a lot of what I was looking for in a school at the time, which is a small liberal arts Catholic school. I didn't know what a Jesuit was yet but I was Catholic educated my whole life and that felt familiar in a good way and in a challenging way. Yeah, I landed here in 2000 as a wee freshman, and took me a little while to find my sort of academic home and you, Stephanie, were a big part of that. I meandered through all of my distribution requirements and learned that I wasn't a disciplinary thinker but a multi-disciplinary thinker. Meg: Got a chance to design my own American Studies major before that was a thing on campus, and you Stephanie, were wise enough really, to say yes to being my advisor for that- Stephanie: It was wise because then we got to be friends, and you did your senior thesis on Child's Play, which I think is really interesting and I think it reveals a lot about you and the way that your brain works. Can you talk about that a little bit, explain what that thesis was about, if you can recall? Meg: Yes, I can recall. I can recall sitting in the library at a giant table every Friday writing it, my senior year. I was really interested in gender. I was also a women's studies concentrator before it was women and gender studies and then, material culture, and so, I studied how doll play and child rearing manuals sort of told a story about gender and the role of women in early America and how girls were socialized to grow up to be mothers and caretakers, through the use of dolls and doll play. So, it's really interesting, kind of nerdy but lovely research. It was sort of the bringing together of all of the disciplines of my American Studies major and my interest in sort of gender, and culture. Stephanie: Yeah, and also, I think creativity, right? The idea of looking at something and you see something extensible in that, a doll but then, being able to read and interpret more deeply into it and try to think about what are the influences and impacts that this artifact could have? I think that that is in a lot of ways really connected to some of the work that you do about seeing things one way and then trying to shift one's angle of vision to see it another way to unpack its power. So, it might look like doll play, but I think it was really indicative of future trajectories, perhaps. Meg: I love that. Stephanie: So you mentioned that you didn't even know what a Jesuit was and then, your biography really kind of spent a lot of time in that Jesuit social justice space. So, can you talk a little bit about ... and that's what we would stay around mission, right, around how you're formation at Holy Cross, what are the sort of the things that you think are part of your Jesuit education at Holy Cross, and then we can talk about how you then put those into action after graduation? Meg: Yeah, I love that you brought up the Live the Mission T-shirts, because I was an orientation leader who wore that T-shirt many summer and I'm a little bit of a mission statement nerd, because I just love the way that institutions and communities and even people can take an opportunity to name explicitly what they're about and what they aspire to be. So, I think they're both aspirational and descriptive. The Holy Cross mission, I stepped into it in a variety of ways. I mean, my experience as a student is that you can't go to Holy Cross and not be steeped in mission, but I understand other people have different experiences of that. Meg: For me, I saw it everywhere I looked, and I sought it out also. So, I got involved in the chaplains office, pretty early on in retreats, and in singing in liturgical choir, and sort of embracing the social justice mission of Jesuit education and formation through Pax Christi, and going to the School of the Americas protest and participating in the Mexico Immersion Program and SPUD. Really, seeing the ways that a faith doing justice was a huge part of the college's larger mission and I also just ... I think, part of what I loved about specifically, the Holy Cross mission statement was that it was full of questions and when we talk about what I do now, this might become even more clear to people but I'm sort of all about questions. Meg: I love the ways in which a question can invite us into, again, aspiration and also possibility, and deep personal reflection at an institutional level, sort of organizational reflection on again, who we want to be and how we want to be in the world. The Holy Cross mission statement asks these super powerful questions like what is the moral character of teaching and learning and what are our obligations to one another? What's our special responsibility to the world's poor and powerless? How do we find meaning in life and history? Meg: These are what I have always called the big important questions and I love the way that my academic experience sort of mirrored that more spiritual formation in wading into those big questions and finding the nuance and complexity that comes through sustained engagement with those kinds of questions. There's no simple answers to be found here and I love that. Even though I'm someone who really likes clarity and planning and a clear path, there's a big part of me that also knows, we need to wrestle with the complexity and the gray areas of what it means to be human. So, those are the parts of the mission statement and the way that the mission was lived in my experience that really captivated my imagination. Stephanie: That's awesome and that notion of patience and ambiguity, which is also in the mission is a wonderful thing and it's hard for type A organizers, like yourself and myself, sometimes to sit in that space but I think that that's really probably where we're most human, right? Particularly today in our really Balkanized political discourse, it's important to try to find these spaces of more nuanced. So, let's talk about that a little bit, so you come to the college, you find your way, you figure, you learn what a Jesuit might be, you live the mission, wear a T-shirt and then you graduate, right? With this thesis in Child's Play where everyone is banging on your door to hire you to do something with Child's Play because they don't know that Child's Play is not a play, it's very serious. Meg: I think that was the subtitle of my thesis. Stephanie: It was. This is no joke. I think it's serious- Meg: Something about seriousness of ... Yeah, anyways, yes. Stephanie: Exactly. So, tell me a little bit about ... I know right after college, you joined the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, right? Meg: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie: And went to New Orleans. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: Tell me a little bit about that decision and how this question driven impulse that you have, played out in that space. The kind of work you did there, and how maybe your sense of your own personal mission started to shift a little bit in that time. Meg: Yeah, so I served in New Orleans in 2004 to 2005. I served at a domestic violence shelter. We had a transitional shelter and an emergency shelter. My work there involved being a part of the life of the shelter, of the residential life of our clients and guests. I dropped into a culture that could not have been more different than my suburban New Jersey Catholic upbringing, although New Orleans is very Catholic, but sort of my sheltered, very white suburban, middle class upbringing. For me, that was a transformative year in terms of coming to see the lived realities of some of the things that I had studied at Holy Cross. So, I took great courses, like social ethics with Professor Mary Hobgood, and liberation theology with Jim Nickoloff. Meg: I had studied ... and also in my local volunteering over the four years that I was in Worcester, obviously, coming face to face with the realities of injustice and poverty and violence, and sort of had this sort of charity orientation. Definitely, Holy Cross moved me into a conceptualization of justice as a really important aim, more so than charity. They go together but really, that more of my activism sort of bloomed as a Holy Cross student. It was entirely different to move to a city I've never lived in before, worked in a shelter, live in intentional community with six other humans, doing all kinds of work in the city, and tried to live in some shape of solidarity, which is not really possible in some ways, because I was bringing all my privilege and my social network of support with me. Meg: I remember feeling like I saw a different side of the world for the first time, that I really was face to face with three dimensional humans, who were experiencing these things that were really sort of more theoretical in my head at the time, oppression and discrimination, and violence, and classism, and sexism, and heterosexism and all the isms. Yet, New Orleans is this amazing, cultural, rich, historic place that is so much an example of finding joy and having resilience in the face of so many difficulties. Of course, I left New Orleans, three weeks before Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast, and never was that clear, that sense of resilience and hope and richness of community than when I returned to New Orleans, about 10 months after Katrina hit to move back. Stephanie: Let's talk a little bit about that, because that was a really interesting ... an interesting move for you, I think. They joke that JVC graduates are ruined for life, right? That sort of tagline and I think a lot of our students would find it interesting and helpful, frankly, who also choose this path of service as a postgraduate moment. After that, sometimes they feel a little stuck about what next, right? Because you've just had this really intense experience, an experience in which hopefully, you've made some kind of impact but really, mostly it has an impact on the server, as we know, around that quest around justice and charity models, right? Stephanie: You opted to come back to New Orleans, right, to go back to New Orleans and the listeners might not know this, but Megan, Meg Griffiths was a member of the CIA and I think you should explain that, because I think it will surprise people that you are a CIA member. Do you want to explain that Megan and what called you back to New Orleans? Meg: Yeah. Yeah. So, I had moved up to Milwaukee. I was serving at Marquette University, an internship in their university ministry office, so that's where I went when I left and that's where I was when Katrina hit. I didn't have a television in my apartment. I was living in a residence hall. I just come off of a year of simple living. I do not bring a lot with me to Milwaukee. As the news of Katrina was sort of coming up to Milwaukee, I was really not as in tune with what was happening as I would have been if I had a television and sort of made a point to be following the news. Simpler times back then. I quickly started checking in with some people who I knew who were in New Orleans, and it became clear that it was being taken increasingly seriously, as Katrina was approaching. Meg: So, I think that the fact that I had been a resident of that city three weeks before Katrina hit, I mean, I just ... it felt like home still, as much as a place you've lived for 11 months, can feel like home but- Stephanie: Very intense 11 months, so that makes it more home, right? Meg: Yes, and I just ... the only way I could explain it is I felt like I was having the experience that my heart was still in New Orleans and was breaking for this beloved city and its beautiful humans. So, I made my way down several times that year when I was serving at Marquette. I brought students, I went down and met up with other JVs and at the end of my internship, I didn't really have a plan as to what was next. My supervisor at the time, at Marquette who is Jocelyn, she was the liturgist there, she decided she was taking a leave of absence and going to move to post Katrina New Orleans because she felt so called to do so. Meg: I remember so clearly that she asked me straight out, "If I do this, will you come with me?" Without even thinking, I said yes. That is a moment where I felt so deeply certain about the word yes, that I didn't even have time to think before it came out of my mouth. Then, I was like, "Oh, no, I just said, Yes. I think I have to do this." Stephanie: Wait a minute the overthinker didn't overthink this. She just responded. That's great. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: That's a pure yes. Meg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it felt like a call. I mean, it was a direct invitation- Stephanie: It was an invitation, literally. Yeah. Meg: So I said yes, not knowing what it meant or how we would pay for anything or what we would do. Another person joined us, a recent alum of Marquette, my dear friend, Stacy now. So, the three of us moved to New Orleans, rented a house started calling ourselves contemplatives in action, i.e. CIA. Stephanie: I love it. Meg: So, we built this fledgling nonprofit to help people ... to help receive short term volunteers into the city. So, our Jesuit high schools and colleges and parishes, and so many others but in particular, we had a connection to this larger Jesuit family, and people wanted to come to New Orleans and help rebuild and stand with the people of New Orleans and accompany people in their moment of pain, and hear their stories and bear witness. So, we created an opportunity that made it easier for people to find their way to do that work by helping place volunteers and connect them with local nonprofits and local community leaders and with the spiritual and religious and cultural history of the city of New Orleans. Meg: It was really hard work. I mean, physically hard labor but also emotionally hard work. I remember, Stacy, my colleague and co-conspirator in the CIA, say, "I came to New Orleans, to lighten other people's burdens and what I didn't realize was that I would wind up carrying them, with them." That's how we help lighten other people's burdens. Stephanie: Right, accompany them. Meg: Yeah, and that weight of living in what was, for many years after I was there, still a city in distress and in disarray, is emotionally difficult to show up every day and be present to that and to be able to leave was a huge privilege. That wasn't my life. It wasn't my community. It wasn't my home. It wasn't my school, that was destroyed and yet it felt like a part of me. I also knew that there was a limit to how much capacity I had to continue to show up. So, I made a commitment of a year of doing that work in community and then, stepped out of that work and into the next thing. Stephanie: Right, and that's, I think, really ... I just want to thank you for sharing that. I think it's really important for people to know that, you can step up and step in and accompany and do your very best and sometimes it feels like failure to step away, but stepping away is also stepping towards something else. It's not always stepping away from. This notion of sharing the suffering and sharing the stress, and sharing the work is something that very few single people can do, right? It's something that many people need to step in and come in and go. So, I think that idea that you were there, you went away and you came back, I mean, that's that kind of push, pull relationship. Stephanie: I think it's important for people, particularly younger folks who might be listening, to recognize that one, you make a commitment to something and you follow through on your commitment and then, it's okay to also make a different commitment. That's also part of the development and you're not abandoning people, you're not quitting. Meg: I mean, for me, it was about how can I find a different way to support this work. So, I think, also like, especially right now, in our world, when there's so much work needed, and so many people joining in the long struggle for racial justice, for the first time, finding your place in the work can be really hard and I think we sometimes ... I'll speak for myself, I think I sometimes think that there's only one way to show up, to be part of the work and the truth is, there are many ways and we are as different, in terms of our gifts and our assets, and our limitations, as you can get in humans. So, noticing what you can do, what serves the work, what sustains you and the work. Meg: Then, being okay with pivoting, when you realize that that's no longer the role that you can play or want to play or is helpful to play. So for me, I moved to Providence, which is where I live now after New Orleans and I took a job in higher ed setting and one of the first things I did was asked if I could start a program to bring students to New Orleans. So, I continued my relationship and my work and in some ways, built a much more sustainable way. My advocacy continues like super- Stephanie: Particularly you singularly doing the work. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: Something that amplifies and continues. Yeah, the sustainability question. Meg: Yeah. So, I mean, not right now because nobody's going anywhere but up until last January, students were still going on the NOLA immersion trip from my previous institution. I built that program in 2009. It ran for 10 years, and it will come back I hope, when travel is a thing again, because the work in New Orleans also continues. The immediate response and rebuilding was ongoing for many, many years and yet, there's still ongoing work that we can do. Stephanie: Yeah, and I think that's really interesting, Meg to hear you talk about how you can best serve because sometimes we do have these default notions that it needs to look a certain way. I would connect this with the spiritual exercises, right? That idea of you have to find your way, right? Discern your way, not the way that the culture might tell you is the way or what does service look like, what does a simple life have to look like? We bring a lot of baggage to that and the hard work of reflecting on what is my path and being okay with that even if it looks a little counter-cultural, if it looks like someone's leading something or pivoting. Stephanie: I think that has a lot to do with letting go of ego. Did you think that had to do at all with ego, the idea of who you thought you were in that moment and then, recognizing there's another way of using your skills and gifts toward a larger end? Meg: Yeah, I don't know that I would put that language around it at the time but certainly looking back ... I mean, I did have a lot of moments of asking myself, like what am I here for? Am I here for the right reasons? Am I the right person to be doing this work? I mean, the answer wound up always being yes or enough of a not no, to stay. I think there are moments where in my own development and sort of self-actualization we might say in the fancy words, where I would look at people that I admired and try to be more like them. I think it was actually another of my Holy Cross mentors, Kristine Goodwin, who at one point, used this frame of sort of holy envy. Meg: That when we see people who live out values that we share in a particular way, we can have some jealousy around it almost, that like, we want to be as good, quote, unquote, as they are. I think there have been a lot of people in my life that have served as beacons or sort of examples. The challenge is to always stay rooted and figuring out how I can live out my own values in my own way. One of the things that I care really deeply about and how I show up in the world, is with a sense of integrity. For me, that means living in alignment with my values and who I am and who I've been called to be. So that there's an integrated self in that way of the word integrity, that what I say I'm about, I'm about or at least I'm trying real hard to be about it. Meg: The same with the mission statements being both descriptive and aspirational. I think my values are things that I hold dear, and I want to live out and I also have to aspire to because I won't do it perfectly, and I won't always get it right. Stephanie: Well, of course and I love that phrase holy envy, I have to say the reason I went to graduate school was because of holy envy. One of my professors at Georgetown, I wanted his life. I thought it was just remarkable what he was able to do and the impact he had on me as a young person. We're very, very different. Went to really different fields and different personalities. We're still friends and that's right, you find your ... you might have the catalyst, the inspiration. Then, as you emerge and you grow, you find your way, hopefully in it. That back and forth between achieved ... hitting the mark on values and aspiring to living that, I think that's really interesting. Stephanie: Tell me then about how in your life, if you can ... and you have a really rich professional biography, educational biography, activist biography, and we don't have time to go into all of them. So, I want to give you the opportunity to highlight if you can, either a moment or a choice or a career path, that for you, really puts this values in action, where that integrated self has found firm ground, and what kind of ... and how you manifest that in your work. Meg: I'll leave it to you, Stephanie, to ask the big old questions. Stephanie: Sorry, but you got to give me a good one example. I'm just wondering, is it your current work now? Is it navigating higher ed? Is it your work, which I'd love to talk about at one point with the LGBTQ alumni network at Holy Cross, which to me has been so important, so we can get to that unless you want to talk about it now. So, it's really up to you. I mean, I think ... like I said, the beginning of our conversation, you are a person, remarkably. I mean, I admire you so much, Meg. When you talk about being catalyzed by people, and you put me in that list, I need to share with you that one of the great things about teaching at Holy Cross is being catalyzed by your students. I mean, I put you in my list. It's true, though. It is true though and you know that and I would throw your wife Heather in there as well. Stephanie: I mean, you the two of you really live what ... from the outside and someone on the inside feels very real. A real life where you don't run away from the hard stuff and you try to stay true to your moral compass. We need more of that in the world, frankly and so I'm glad you're in it. So, having said that, what's a way that you think that that's succeeded for you? Obviously, never 100% but what do you think what's been a moment where you've been able to make those choices and live the way you seek to live? Meg: Well, thank you for that kind offering. When I think about how I've had to navigate and negotiate what it means to live out my values, I mean, I think what has been the ... one of the pivotal sort of negotiations has been around identity. So, you mentioned my beloved wife, Heather. She's a Holy Cross alum as well. Stephanie: And a former student. Meg: Yes. Although Stephanie can take no credit for the matchmaking directly but- Stephanie: Much to my chagrin. I had each of you in class and yet you didn't even know each other as undergrads, which just breaks my heart. See, fate happens, right? Meg: That's right. Yeah, so I mean, I ... So when I was an undergrad, I didn't believe myself to be anything other than straight. When I started to come to know myself, as at first, not straight, and then later claiming various identities over time, but then, partial to queer, because of its sort of umbrellaness of many things. When I was an undergrad, I imagined myself working in Catholic higher ed for the rest of my life, ideally, Jesuit higher ed. I wanted to ... I'm obsessed with mission and mission statements. I wanted to be the person on a Jesuit campus who helped the community live out their mission, of course. Stephanie: You pointed at it, you'd be fantastic. Meg: I was born and raised Catholic. In many ways, my Catholic faith was nourished in college, which is often, I think, not the case for what happens in terms of spiritual development of many young people but Holy Cross was a place that nourished my spirituality, and gave me an intellectual and theological frame for holding complexity, as I was sort of mentioning earlier. So, I took classes like sexual justice and feminist theology and liberation theology, that helped me make sense of a world in which multiple things can be true at the same time, both in the world and inside of a human. So, when I came to know myself as a queer Catholic, that was a lot to take in. Meg: Also, I felt really prepared in some ways to hold those identities at the same time. There is internal tension there, that is never going to be resolved and it's taught me a lot about embracing paradox or seeming paradox. I think that that process of negotiating my identity and trying to live out my values as a faithful person, and my identity as someone who falls outside of the church's teachings about what is right, quote, unquote, I think is what was part of the path of getting me into the work that I do now, which is the work of helping people hold tensions and manage internal conflict, and sit across from someone else who holds a drastically different opinion, idea, ideology, set of identities, and see them as human still, not in spite of but because of what they bring in terms of their humanity. Stephanie: We're listening to them and taking seriously in. Meg: Yeah, absolutely. Stephanie: This seems to me a good segue to talk about the kind of ... what it is that you do? Sometimes people talk about the language of bringing people to the table and having people, and it is sounds wonderful, but it's hard to understand what that actually looks like and I think about my own struggle right now, given our current climate and as an American historian, and the ways in which history is being bandied about and weaponized, frankly, and I feel like I know certain things. I know certain things to be true and you're telling me correctly, that multiple things can be true at the same time. Talking about how does a community respond to what's going on right now and to me, let's just use the example of Black Lives Matter, to me, this seems like it's not an ambiguous at all, right? Stephanie: You're either stand with Martin Luther King Jr. or you stand with Bull Connor and his dogs and hoses. To me, it feels like that kind of choice. How in the work you do, which I think is so important, because I feel myself getting more and more entrenched and frustrated, how would you bring someone like that to the table with someone who had a different feeling? What are some of the things ... this is very much mission. I mean, how do you do that and I want to ask you another question, what do you call yourself? I mean, I know your title is associate, but are you a teacher? Are you a mentor? Are you a space maker? What do you go? So, those would be ... I want to know more about how this actually works, largely, because I feel like this is a free consultation. Stephanie: I don't need to pay you for your expertise because I feel like I need this. I need this in family conversations, Twitter ... my goodness, the text threads, I need Meg Griffiths and your skillset. So, how do you do that work and what do you call yourself? Meg: Well, first of all, we all need a little Meg Griffiths. I mean- Stephanie: True and we need Meg Griffin's baked goods. The whole other story of your community making baking space but we do need a lot of Meg Griffiths, not just a little. So, how do you do that when we're in this moment, it's hard enough anyways, particularly, this reactive moment we're in right now. Meg: Well, let me start with, who I work with and for and what we do, and then, I'd love to talk about what I call myself and how we're responding to this moment. So, I work with an organization called Essential Partners. We were founded over 30 years ago by family therapists in Cambridge, Massachusetts. These were a group of mostly women who looked at the public debates around, say, abortion that were happening in the 90s and could clearly see patterns of dysfunction in these quote, unquote, conversations on public television between the pro life and pro choice sides of the issue. They said to themselves, "You know, these are patterns we see in family therapy sessions. We are familiar with this dysfunction and what these systems produce. These communication systems. These power dynamics, et cetera." Meg: So, they went to work and started playing around with an approach to dialogue that would begin to bring their tools to the public conversation. So we were founded as Public Conversations Project, about 30 years ago. We had a name change about five years ago to Essential Partners. So, what we've done over the last 30 years is fine tune, adapt, iterate, and evolve an approach to conversation around polarizing issues. So, what we do is we come into communities, organizations, schools, faith communities, nonprofits, anyone who wants us, and they usually call because they're stuck. They're stuck or they've gotten bad news because they got a climate study back that said, things aren't looking so hot or because they've had some sort of acute conflict come up in their community. Meg: They say, we need help. We don't know what to do. We don't know how to get out of these stuck patterns that were in. Stephanie: Even where to start, right? That kind of news is just so shattering if it's not your experience of the institution, but you know that some of your colleagues it is their experience. Meg: Right, right. Stephanie: Even that moment of recognition is huge. Meg: Yeah, that cognitive dissonance of, well, I love this place and this place feels like home and community and family to me, what are you telling the other people don't feel that way? Yeah, and other people are like, "Thank you for putting the data in front of people, because we've been telling you this for a really long time or we haven't been able to say it out loud because of fear of consequences, of naming our experience. So, I mean, we do a lot of different things but we usually start by listening and trying to get a sense of what the real ... what hasn't worked in the past. What people's hopes and concerns are. If they can imagine a preferred future, what would it look like for them and their community? Meg: Then, we do all kinds of things. So, yes, my title is associate. I talk about my work as being a practitioner of dialogue and of facilitation. I am a trainer, I am an educator, I am in accompanier. This work feels like the Venn diagram of everything I've done. It feels like the middle of ministry, which I have a history in working in ministry, education, I've done teaching of various kinds, and still work for justice because I think this is about helping everyone in the community feel heard, valued, understood and understand that they have dignity, and that their community sees them as having the same dignity as everyone else. Meg: So, we work with people to build skills, to try on new ways of speaking and listening and structuring conversation. We build people's capacity to lead and participate in dialogue and we also work with faculty to help them bring dialogue in their classrooms. We bring coaching and consulting support to organizations and leaders. We just try to ... I mean, when it comes down to it, what I think this work is about is helping people see what's possible, because when we're stuck and all we have are bad examples of destructive communication about hard topics, we have lost our sense that anything else is possible. We can't even imagine that I could sit across the table from someone who disagrees with me, and feel heard and understood by that person. Meg: Be able to hear and understand what their experience and how they've come to their beliefs has been. That's what we do. Stephanie: It's such important work. I mean, it is a real crisis, I have to tell you and I feel like in a differently trained way than you, I tried to do that in my classroom and yet, in personal life, things get more complicated and it's really easy to fight or flight, that you either fight the fight and sometimes it doesn't always have to be a fight. It can be a combination but everything feels like a fight these days or flight, which is just shut down. I'm just not going to deal with you. I'm not going to engage and there's a certain amount of ... there's a lot of disservice and violence in that, of negating someone entirely and yet, engaging when another person doesn't have the same skill set, and where my skill set might be really out of training, because of the world we're living in, can be a really, really hard thing. Stephanie: It also seems like it's a hard thing for someone like me, I would say, who's very outcome oriented, right? When I directed Montserrat, one of my colleagues said, "Okay, we need to process these program goals and outcomes all around assessment," right? I said, "Well, we did that, didn't we." She said, "No, we need to have more meetings and more conversation." I'm like, " Ugh, process." So, I discovered, I'm kind of a closet autocrat, that I ... the illusion of democracy but I really just, let's get it done, right? So, I've learned as an adult to slow down and listen and embrace process more. My teenage children might not agree with that but at least in the professionals space, I tried to do that. Stephanie: It's been a challenge for me, and I know that you also are a person who's outcome oriented, action oriented, but you're also a process person. So, what advice would you give us today, who are all having these conversations in our lives, professionally or personally, around this idea of process itself being worthwhile and not just thinking about the win or the outcome? Meg: Yeah. That is- Stephanie: Consultation, free consultation, but it's true and this is mission, right? This is exactly ... when you talk about your Venn diagram, again, I think you're very lucky and I think you've also been really intentional about creating that diagram. Some of it might be luck, but a lot of it is choices and most of us don't necessarily have as integrated of a Venn diagrams as I think you've been able to construct. So, what do you think? How can we do this better? What would you say to folks that want the outcome that weight with the process. Meg: So I mean, my thing is ... I often say this to clients who are like, we got to get to the business. We got, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "Y'all, this is the work. The process is the work because if we're stuck in destructive patterns, we got to rebuild a different kind of pattern. We have to examine the processes that are getting us stuck and every process is designed to get exactly what it gets." So, if you're going to try and like, be different together, you have to have a different process. For me, I think about naming that with people up front, because we are so outcomes focused, right? People call us because there's a problem, an acute problems. Sometimes a very public problem, sometimes a lawsuit kind of problem. Stephanie: Right. Meg: They want to fix things and I think- Stephanie: Make it go away. Make it go away. Fix it and move on. Meg: Yes and hopefully, people when they call us, they're not trying to just check a box, they're actually trying to change the culture of their organization or their campus and build some new skills so that they don't need to keep bringing us in all the time if they can start to build their capacity to change and shift things themselves. Stephanie: I was thinking that it sounds like the kind of work people and organizations should do before the acute crisis. In other words, you should build your skill set before the crisis, because what I talked to you about was this idea of how do you bring people who are so outcome oriented, think of the process is the work because ... And also how do you do it when it's asymmetrical? Let's say you have the skills of process, but the person on the other end doesn't have the skills? How do you leapfrog them? Meg: Yeah, and so, one of the things that we do organizationally is we have a couple of certain organizational norms and principles. One is, we say, connect before content. So every time we're doing anything, a client call, a workshop, a dialogue, we build the time in to connect as humans before we get down to business. We do that really simply, we might ask a question like, what are you bringing with you into this conversation that it would be helpful for other people to know about as we prepare to like land in this conversation, or tell me about how your morning has been, right? It doesn't have to be so fancy and what we do in every engagement is we try to model a different kind of process. Meg: Bring people into that so that they can see what shifts. So, I'll say, I actually have done some work at Holy Cross, I worked with the chaplains' office with Marybeth Kearns-Barrett, who was trained by us when we were still Public Conversations Project back in the late '90s, as an early adopter of dialogue and we were able to work together to re-imagine the freshmen retreat and I trained a bunch of Holy Cross faculty and students and staff in our facilitation model to prepare to lead that retreat last fall. Marybeth, she took this idea of a connecting question into other work that she was doing on campus, and that she heard from someone who participated in that conversation, that it was the most seen and understood, that community member has ever felt on this campus. Meg: Because they were able to show up and tell a different side of who they are in that space. Because in our work lives, we're often put in boxes of ... and we introduce ourselves, name, rank and serial number, how long we've been here where, all these things that can actually serve to disconnect us rather than connect us because it can highlight our differences or different levels of power and status. When we ask a connecting question that actually invites story or experience, a little bit more of our humanity into the room, and we suddenly see each other in a new way, in a more three dimensional way. The same is true in a deeply divisive polarizing dialogue. Meg: That what we do is we invite people to share a story about something that would help other people understand how they came to their position on an issue. We don't ask people to state their positions. That's a destructive pattern of communication. We know what that looks like when it plays out when all you do is bring a position to the conversation. When you can bring a story, a piece of who you are and then when you can share the values that are underneath that story, you start to get a more complex picture and then, you ask people actually, where have you experienced internal tension on this issue? That is a completely different conversation. Meg: There are infinite, more possibilities for how that conversation can unfold and if we stick to our typical pro and con, or and against position conversations, Stephanie: That's really, really helpful to think about, and it makes me ... I don't think I did this in the class I taught with you but I do this political autobiography assignment that actually, Margaret Post back when she was directing the CBL and Donelan Center really helped me shape and she also does a lot of this kind of service work and scholarship. It's the same thing, I asked my first years to write a political autobiography without any guidance, just like who are you? What do you believe? It's very much a position statement, pro, con and then, through a series of interviews with peers and different reflective exercises and the readings and of course, over the course of the semester or year, if I'm teaching at Montserrat, they rewrite various points of it. Stephanie: It's so interesting, because slowly as trust is built and confidence, and a sense of community, they feel able to share, exactly what we're saying, when you said a piece of themselves. It makes that position so much more legible, and it makes it legible to the peer and the various peers that are reading those autobiographies or having the interviews. I always try to put people that I've ... have a sense of might be oppositional in the conversation, because it's easy to be oppositional on paper but when you're sitting at Cool Beans with a cup of coffee, and I say go to breakfast, have coffee, sit on the hovel, suddenly, I understand Meg, even if I might disagree with her. Stephanie: Suddenly she's going to understand me differently and 201, the students that comment, they love the assignment and again, it's built on the shoulders of other people and their help to me. They comment that, that experience of being with a peer talking about serious value driven questions, and needing to listen because they have to reproduce the conversation, each of them and then reflect on it, as part of the assignment, was the high point, right? That's just like a teeny little bit of what sounds like what you're doing though, that adults need to do that, right? So, these are these young people information and it's underneath this academic umbrella. Stephanie: Then, it's like, okay, your credential, if you've got your BS or your BA go out into the world, you're fully formed now and clearly, we still need that. I need that reminder, in my own life. It's funny, I feel like I can facilitate that a little bit with my students because of my position as professor and they have to do what I say, but am I doing it in my own life in the spaces that that needs doing? Meg: Well, I love that and that is so beautiful, Stephanie because I mean, when we talk about how to bring this work into the classroom, we have a particular approach. It's highly structured and it's structured because we know that that helps people feel safe enough to contribute. There's a sense of certainty about what to expect. They know that there's a container for the conversation to happen inside of and it can hold a lot. The container can hold a lot of emotion, a lot of disagreement, all of those things but you don't have to bring a 90-minute structured dialogue into your classroom, to create the kind of dialogic spirit that you have clearly demonstrated, right? Meg: It can be as simple as helping students, and then also to your point, bringing this out into the world, in our families, in whatever, right? Helping them to ask questions that will invite that deeper experience, that is behind their belief. It's about following our curiosity instead of listening to debate or persuade, right? The intentionality that we bring to our listening and to our asking of questions, we know has a powerful impact on what we hear and how a person responds. So, we come with a genuine curious question. We're going to get a really different response from our interlocutor or conversation partner than if we come with a question that's actually just a suggestion with an inflection point at the end of the sentence, don't you think it would be better if you just did this? Stephanie: Do you mean my mom voice? Yes, I know that, I've heard that once or twice. I always say I'm a better professor than I am a parent. I'm so much more generous and open ended with my students than with my own children. Meg: My God, please. Heather is like, that doesn't sound like a curious question. Stephanie: There's no fun in it. Yeah, I'm not talking ... That is great, I love that she says that. Look, bring your work to home. Usually, it's like your work at the work place and you're like, "Okay, bring it into this conversation." That is too funny. Well, I would like to write my congressional representative, Jim McGovern and suggest that he bring essential partners to Congress, because I think exactly what you're talking about is what we need and we need it frankly on local and state government levels, as well as institutionally what you're talking about, because I really think we are in a crisis and unfortunately, I don't believe that playing to just ... I mean, leadership matters and the tone is set from above in many ways, I believe in a ground up model too. Stephanie: I don't think that necessarily just notions of who's in charge is going to magically change how we have trained ourselves over decades frankly, really, it's not over a few years as a country but over decades to not listen and to not understand because people are angry and frustrated and then shut down. So, it sounds like if you were to describe yourself beyond, you need a new title. The associate does not encapsulate it. It's teacher, it's curiosity generator, it's ... you're a human can opener. You're a maker of space for these things to happen. We need a more- Meg: Crafter of questions and- Stephanie: Crafter of questions, that sounds like Hogwarts. The Crafter of questions and potions. Well, this is such a pleasure and I have to say I'm so glad you do this work, Meg, because we really so desperately need it. It must feel wonderful to do work that you really believe and see, as needed and effective. That's really awesome, so thank you for that. I'm going to shift gears and do you want to say one more thing? Go ahead. Meg: I just want to add, I think sometimes dialogue gets a bad rep because there are so many urgent issues that need action and attention. So, I just want to say that dialogue is a tool, and our approach has, at its heart, a purpose of building and supporting mutual understanding, and it is not going to solve all the world's problems but what it is really good at is building trust, building understanding and building social cohesion in communities that have been sort of torn or harmed in terms of their sense of community, and it can lay a really strong foundation for action, for a community coming to know and understand where its shared values and shared hopes are and then, moving toward that. Stephanie: Again, this is a ... it's a really helpful precondition. A really necessary precondition but I appreciate you saying that because I think, again, as historian of the ... and I think about Martin Luther King Jr. in Alabama, Birmingham and the City Council saying, "Just wait, don't do this now, wait. This isn't the time," and he wrote his piece why we can't wait and the letter from the Birmingham Jail. So, there does come a time when dialogue shuts down, because it's not really dialogue. It's not dialogue of ... sort of you're talking about, which is people on various positions and I'm saying sides because we don't want to be binary, occupying various spaces in the conversation, who are equally equipped to have a true dialogue, as opposed to not equipped. Stephanie: If people refuse to be equipped, and they insist on being equipped or failed to be equipped, then, of course, I understand why it breaks down and people have to act, because you're right, action toward justice is what the process is hopefully leading toward. Meg: Yeah and people have to ... I think people who come to the dialogue table, they come because they're in touch with something that means a lot to them, and they care enough to show up and listen and try to muddle through with people who they know, occupy different positions and to me, that's a sign of hope in and of itself, if people are willing to come to the table and that they have a shared commitment to making some kind of change, making their community better, making space for more voices and re-humanizing the quote, unquote, other and that ... again, process is an outcome. Stephanie: It were, you say, yeah. Meg: The outcome of that is increased trust, increase connection, increased resilience of listening and social cohesion that, as you said, can be a precondition for greater change in terms of structural change or organizational change, or societal- Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely and even an opportunity for decreasing certain kinds of behaviors, right, is also ... plus its increasing capacity, but not just dismissing a person because you think you know their whole bio or of course, that's how they're going to react and I'm sure that in your work, you come up against certain parties in various institutions, when they hear your plan, say, "Well, I'm not going to do that, right. That's not for me." That must be really frustrating because the idea is to build that trust so that, people who need it, who's all of us, that's the other piece, it's not just certain parties need to hear all, all the parties need to hear. Stephanie: I think that that's a really inclusive model. Awesome. That's great work. It's so needed, I want you to come to my house in my next Thanksgiving dinner, Meg and we'll have a consultation. All right, so let's shift gears, because we don't have too much time left, although I could do this all day long. I wish I could. I'm going to do something called speed round for fun. Meg: Okay. Stephanie: My gosh, what is it? Okay, and I'm going to ask you a series of questions and I just want you to answer in whatever way you want. Okay? They're really, really heavy questions. These are heavy questions that are going to shape the future of the world, ready? Favorite vacation spot? Meg: Wellfleet. The Cape. Stephanie: Beautiful. Favorite baked good that you make yourself? Meg: Homemade no knead bread. Stephanie: Favorite dessert that's a dessert, baked good. Of course. It's so funny that I say baked good, I'm immediately thinking chocolate and you say bread. So, favorite dessert, dessert not just bread. Meg: It's the Italian in me. Stephanie: I know. Right. Meg: I don't actually make a lot of desserts but I buy the most delicious brownie from The Vegan. I know, it sounds unbelievable. The Vegan bakery down the street has amazing fudgy chocolatey brownies. Stephanie: Delicious. All right, then that sounds perfect. I like that. My mother was a baker like that. She was like, I don't really bake, but I go to Paris Pastry Bakery and I buy the best stuff in pink boxes. What is one of your favorite places in Worcester, because you also lived here for a while after graduation, what's one of your favorite places in Worcester? Meg: Can I say your house? Stephanie: Yes, you're so sweet. Thank you. More importantly, what's your favorite restaurant in Providence, your current home? Meg: We have a weekly standing Friday night dinner at the Vegetarian Place down the street. It's Garden Grill and we miss them terribly while they were shut down and now, we get takeout usually on Friday night. Stephanie: Nice. Garden Grill in Providence. Excellent. Do you make New Year's resolutions or is it every day resolutions? Meg: I don't usually make a New Year's resolution. I try to reflect on the previous year, around that time of year. I don't really make resolutions. Stephanie: That's good. I think you live resolutions every day. Resolutions are outcome oriented. They're not process oriented anyway, right? Meg: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: Maybe what we should make are New Year's process commitments. We need to change that to ... change your title and change that tradition. All right, what about ... real quick back to Holy Cross, what was your favorite dorm that you lived in? Meg: I was the first class to move into what was simply called the apartments, my senior year, now Williams Hall. I was the senior resident director. The first ever in the senior apartments. Stephanie: Did you get a room with a good view of downtown? Meg: I was in the basement, so not the perfect view, but close to the nice balcony- Stephanie: They do. Meg: Yeah. Stephanie: That overlooked Worcester. What about if it's possible back in the early 2000s, your favorite food at Kimball? Meg: Gosh. Stephanie: It's gotten so good. Meg: Probably, froyo with cereal on top. Stephanie: Yeah, I think that's probably still, because that constant open machine of the froyo, yeah. What kind of cereal? Meg: Cinnamon toast crunch or something with sugar- Stephanie: There you go. Excellent and then, what's the best part about being a Holy Cross graduate? What's the best part about being part of this community and I'm going to add, what is something you would like to see more in this community of people? Meg: Well, one of the best things about being an alum is that I got to build the LGBTQ alumni network and meet a bunch of really fabulous and I mean fabulous in all the ways, LGBTQ alums and be part of creating a space where some of our alums who had never stepped foot on campus since they graduated, and had felt really disconnected from the college could reconnect. So, we have a network of hundreds of alums from across many decades and more than a handful of people have made it known to us that they have not had a relationship with the college until this group was founded and recognized and the college was so supportive when we approached them a number of years ago. Meg: Really, the request and encouragement of students at the time from the Abigail Allies now Pride group who wanted to see alums be recognized and organized so that they could see themselves in the alumni community, and that they could have support from alums. So that work has been really meaningful and my colleague, Phil Dardeno, from the class of 2002, has really held that work and steered the ship for the last few years. Stephanie: Wonderfully so and I can attest how important that group is for students. This model of, of being able to move through this place and be true to oneself and have a community that matters, that's wonderful. What would you like to see more from your alum group or from ... what do you what do you hope Holy Cross graduates can bring to the world right now? Meg: Gosh. Stephanie: It's a diverse group of people, so it's so hard. Meg: I know. Stephanie: A hard ask. Meg: Holy Cross alums are doing amazing things in the world and I love how we have Dr. Anthony Fauci out there representing some of what it means to be a Holy Cross alum right now and I'd love to see more storytelling and more ways to bring alums back together. I think the affinity spaces is the future of alumni development and alumni community because I imagine I'm not alone in this. My relationships and connection as a student spanned all four ... well, more than four, graduating classes because I was involved in so much. The idea of coming back for reunion is like, lovely and also, those are not all my people. I missed the people that I saw and had relationships with, that were years ahead and below me. Meg: I would love more opportunities for alumni to gather and now, that must be virtual. Also, for the college to tell the story of more alumni who might be not as famous as Dr. Fauci is and doing really amazing and important work in the world and that's why I love this podcast, but also, I think to amplify and elevate voices of alums who are doing ... who are living their mission and the colleges and then, have opportunities to like hang out together and learn from each other and like rub off on one another a little bit. Stephanie: Exactly, and then, that's that sustainability thing, right, that it fires in sustainable and relationships. That's awesome, Meg. I am so grateful for you, taking the time today to share your story with us and also to share your wisdom around process and relational exchange and hope. Whenever I speak with you, I always leave with a great sense of admiration, love but also such a sense of hope. You're a person who makes things possible and I thank you for that because sometimes this world feels like that ... possibilities feel, they're shutting down. They're literally shut down with isolation, right? It's just really revivifying to spend time with you and I appreciate how well you live the mission. Do you still have your T-shirt, we should have had you wear it. Stephanie: Maybe you have to find an old picture of you in the T-shirt to send ... to post with the podcast, of moving people into the apartments, right? Meg: I'll have to ask Brenda Hounsell-Sullivan, if she has an old orientation photo of me with the Live the Mission. Stephanie: I'm sure she does. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. I will hopefully come down to Providence and grab some Garden Grill with you and Heather, and my husband Tony soon and keep up all the wonderful work you do. Thank you for being part of the Holy Cross story, Meg. Meg: Thank you for being one of my beacons along the way, Stephanie. Maura: That’s our show!  I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others.   A special thanks to today’s guests, and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you, or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu.  If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at The College of the Holy Cross.  You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I’m you’re host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth, and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Haven’t had a chance to listen to our first 50 episodes yet? Never fear, you’ve got time and they’re not going anywhere. In the meantime, we’ve created an epic recap episode to keep you up to date with this ever-changing world. Throughout the first 50 episodes of Up Next in Commerce, we’ve chatted with some of the fastest-growing startups - like Thrive Market and Haus - to the more well-known companies like Puma, Rosetta Stone, Bombas, and HP. Our guests have shared everything from their toughest lessons, to their secrets to success, to the must-know advice for every ecomm leader. And while every company is different and every story unique, over the last 50 episodes, several common themes have emerged. On today’s special episode of Up Next in Commerce, host Stephanie Postles is joined by Albert Chou, the VP of Operations at Mission.org, to dive into some of these top trends.The two discuss the supply chain shakeups companies have had to face this year, and they do a deep dive into the world of influencers and how brands can work with them in a way that leads to lasting ROI. Plus, they look into their crystal balls to try to predict how DTC companies will work with and compete against Amazon, debate on how voice search will impact shopping, and discuss what the future of shoppable worlds might look like. Main Takeaways:Supply Chain Shakeups: Everyone is competing against the hard-to-match expectations set by Amazon — but it’s not all about fast shipping. Processing returns effectively and managing every step of the supply chain so you are left with margins that actually allow you to grow are the main areas that all retailers are, and will continue to be, focused on. I’ll Take One Order of Influencers: Because influencer marketing has become so in demand, there are more strategies than ever to try to get the most ROI out of influencers. What is likely to happen in the future is the creation of a marketplace where brands can buy verified influencers, who are themselves driving the demand for more upfront payment.  Make It Worth It: Building an omnichannel strategy is about more than just offering a brick and mortar location for people to buy your products. Today’s shoppers are looking for experiences that are memorable and entertaining. But it’s important that while brands create those memorable experiences, they don’t forget that little goal of converting potential customers into real buyers.Turning Virtual Into Reality: Shoppable video and the increased offerings of digital products is going to set the stage for future commerce. The next generation is already using real cash to buy virtual products for their avatars in various games. In years to come, not only will you have the option for your avatar to have that virtual product, the real-life version will be offered in tandem for the user behind the screen.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of mission.org. Today, it's a new and interesting episode where I have our VP of ops, Albert Chou on the show, where we're going to go through the previous 50 episodes and talk about highlights, and then talk about future trends that maybe no one has talked about on the show so far. Albert, welcome.Albert:Yeah, thanks for having me. But to be clear, we're not going to go by the 50 episodes one by one because-Stephanie:We're doing one by one.Albert:No, that's terrible. We can't do it. Cannot do it.Stephanie:So, Albert, tell our listeners why did I invite you on the show?Albert:Well, I do have my own ecommerce business, www.[inaudible 00:00:41].com, I've also helped out on a couple others. The biggest one got to 10 million a year. And I worked for an ecommerce startup. One of the co-founders was a guest on the show AddShoppers. So, been working in the game of ecommerce probably since 2016 and still operating today, so learned from painful mistakes, as well as seeing other people have great success.Stephanie:Yeah, you always have some really good feedback and comments on our prep docs. Our amazing producer, Hilary, will put together an awesome prep doc for every episode for me, and then you come in along with all your other job responsibilities at mission, with the VP of ops, you do everything here, but you also come in and add some good questions and comments, and that's why I thought it would be fun to bring you on. So, thanks for hopping on here with me.Albert:Yeah, let's do it.Stephanie:So, to start, I thought we could kind of go through just some high level trends, because through all the episodes that I've had and all the guests we've had on the show so far, there's actually quite a bit of similarities that I heard. And starting with the first one, I think talking about supply chains is really interesting, because so many of the guests who've come on have talked about the shake up in supply chains that they've seen and how they're kind of pivoting and what they're experiencing, and I think that might be a good place to start.Albert:Well, when they talk about supply chain, everyone's competing against what Amazon has created, right? Amazon has created this expectation that you can get what you want, when you want it pretty darn fast. And so if you're any direct consumer brand, or any brand out there, if you're a retailer, that's what's becoming the now norm, right? Can you send it to your customer really fast, and can you take it back? That's like probably the most painful part of ecommerce is the fact that you do have a percentage of tolerance for returns. So, the tighter your supply chain is, the more margins you can create in the process, the more able you can take a return without losing everything. So, it makes total sense that every business is trying to figure this out, how to get closer to the consumer, how to make things closer to the customer, how to make sure that they can take back whatever is being sent back. So, it's just matching what the new customer expectation is.Stephanie:Yeah. I think it was also very interesting, talking to the ShipBob guy where he was talking about how you can basically tap into different fulfillment centers by using them, whereas before, everything with COVID, a lot of people actually were shipping all the way across the country and not really looking at maybe location based ordering. Maybe some people were, but I found that kind of a good shake up that now people are starting to think about how to do things more efficiently and how also not just to rely on one supply chain, because a lot of them maybe are going out of business right now, a lot of the warehouses are having issues, there's a lot of inventory issues. So, it's good to have not all your eggs in one basket.Albert:So, it's not just that. So, there's companies out there that are investing into logistics infrastructure specifically for other people to share. So, similar to ShipBob, there's other competitors in that field. But it goes further than that. If you take a look at some of the publicly traded companies, one of the larger ecommerce platforms, they have invested heavily in infrastructure and warehousing. I know that ChannelAdvisor did the same exact thing. They literally bought a warehousing logistics company. And ChannelAdvisor, for the longest time, has been a company that helps you as a merchant, list your products across the different marketplaces. So, if Stephanie's t-shirt company wants to list their product across Amazon, they want to list it across Rakuten, they want to list it across eBay, and maybe some others, she would still have to ship and fulfill from her own store.Albert:Now, why did ChannelAdvisor build that tool so you can list one product and get it plugged in everywhere? So, why did they invest in all these warehousing companies? Now, it hasn't come to full service yet but you can kind of see it down the road like the supply chain is where the innovation is going to occur. And I think you're going to continue to see that, you're going to see more entrance in it, and it's just non stop, that race will never stop. Basically, a customer can never get something fast enough. You know what I mean? There's always going to be this push to get it there faster.Stephanie:Yeah. It's also interesting hearing about certain companies trying to compete with shipping models against Amazon and trying to have one in two day shipping. It feels like such a hard thing to create from scratch now, but if you can figure that out, you're going to win.Albert:So, I don't know if you know this, Steph. I've also sold through FBA Amazon.Stephanie:I think you told me that?Albert:Do you know [crosstalk 00:05:37]?Stephanie:What did you sell, first of all?Albert:It was an adult card game.Stephanie:I don't want to hear anymore. This is a kid friendly show.Albert:It was not kid friendly. But how it worked is, so I got my order in China, and I had 5,000 pieces, literally shipped it to an FBA Center in New Jersey, never touched the product, and then Amazon automatically redistributed it across as its fulfillment network. And I would get updates like, "Oh, we're moving two boxes to Texas." "Why?" Because we predict, in Texas, someone will buy this, and therefore by moving it closer to the customer, we can reduce the shipping with our internal [crosstalk 00:06:20]."Stephanie:Do you have an influence over that prediction model.Albert:No.Stephanie:Because now more than ever, I'm like, how can anyone predict anything? I mean, there was a really good quote about like, should we be preparing for more people to buy Inkjet printers because they're all working from home, or extra freezers to prepare for the worst? It feels like there's no way to predict for that, so how do they even know that there's a couple in Texas who might want that?Albert:So, add to cart. I think add to cart is what they're doing, right? They're looking at how many people are adding to cart and then they're also looking at the percentage of conversion over time of people who do add to cart. So, if you see a bunch of cart adds for this product or a bunch of search volume increasing for a product in a specific area, you can automatically assume that that product is going to be in demand in that area. They've probably gotten it down to a super exact science.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm not going to question them. I'm sure they got it.Albert:Yeah. And since they're always moving products within their own fulfillment network everywhere, they see that there's a probability that this is going to happen, they just move it closer to you so that when they finally rely on last mile logistics, they've got it as close as possible so that they don't have to pay so much.Stephanie:Yeah, that makes sense. All right. So, the next one I want to kind of move into is influencers. So, first, we did a survey of our audience and a lot of people wanted to hear about influencers. How do I use influencers? What's a good way to actually get a good ROI on it? And a lot of our guests actually mentioned influencers as well. Some people were trying it out and were like, "I don't actually know if this is even working." Other people were having great success but were trying different models. So, I don't know if you've listened to the fancy.com CEO, Greg Spillane episode.Albert:I did.Stephanie:Okay. Well, first of all, that guy's a badass. I mean, making that company his stories. Like did you hear about how he went into a warehouse or a storage locker and found a bunch of credit cards that the founders were giving away with like $1,000 on it, and they were just giving it away to influencers just to try and get them to use fancy.com? Did you hear some of the stories that he was going through about what he experienced when coming into the company to try and turn it around?Albert:I mean, it's the classic, right? It's the classic problem in marketing, right? You're pretty sure some of it is going to work, some people say it's up to half, you just don't know which half, right? And so you're just blowing money trying to get more movement, but I get what they were originally trying to do makes total sense. I mean, you read about the stories of businesses like Gymshark, which built their whole business model off of influencers, and I think they just got a private equity valuation into the billions, so everyone wants to jump on that train.Albert:The problem is influencers themselves have created this marketplace, right? So, if you claim you're an influencer, and you have hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram, now influencers, they don't want to work on commission, they want to work on upfront fees. So, there's this new network which you're now going to see tools come into place of helping merchants buy influence. And so that's the next wave, right? Because I mean, there's a lot of influencers that are frauds or they have no influence on their audience whatsoever, they just have a big Instagram following for whatever reason.Stephanie:Yeah. They just [crosstalk 00:09:30].Albert:That's why the merchants are so frustrated.Stephanie:Oh, yeah. I mean, it's hard to know. You can see someone with a million followers, and something that I saw that was actually a good reminder for anyone with a small business was they're talking about how you can see if those followers have an intent to buy. So, if you have some influencer on there and they're showcasing some purse, or some lipstick, or whatever it might be, and the people in the comments are like, "Oh cute," or, "Pretty" or just liking it, they actually don't have followers who have an intent to buy. Versus you might see more micro influencers, like people that follow from around the area or something, and the people in those comments are like, "Where do I get that jacket from?" Like, "Please link up your shirt."Stephanie:And those are the kind of influences you want to go after because you actually know that if you're in front of their audience, they're ready to buy because they trust that person, which seems like it's kind of shifting, whereas before it was like just get the big name, the big followers, and now it's more like, "Let's make sure we get an ROI. How do we make sure to track this stuff and see some good conversions from it?"Albert:Yeah. I mean, you don't know what you don't know, so all you're looking at is what you assume is a big audience. And so that's the biggest misconception in social media, it doesn't determine their purchasing behaviors. It's just, "I like this person because I think she looks good, or I think he looks good, or I think he's funny. I'm not going to buy anything.Stephanie:Yeah, I can definitely see tools coming out soon, or maybe they're already out in the world, showing like here are kind of the demographics of this person's followers. So, you can sign up with an influencer and also see the income level, the job title, so you know that what you're getting with that influencer is going to have good results because you can see the profile of their followers.Albert:So, interesting, right? Platforms now that are creating marketplaces of influencers. So, I'll name one. We have not had their CEO on the show, but grin.co, you should join the show.Stephanie:[crosstalk] here.Albert:Yeah. GRIN is pretty fascinating, because they've built this marketplace where you as a merchant can then log in and you can see all the influencers, you can search by category. Let's say I want surfing, or you want food, or you want outdoor, whatever it is you want, it'll pull up a list of influencers and then it'll show the basic vanity metrics. But it also has ratings of probability of sale, because they've already maybe done a campaign for another brand, so you as a brand kind of see those numbers. Now, the problem always is, as a consumer is, you kind of always get drawn to the big numbers, right? So, you'll see like, let's say, the superstar TikToker, girl Charli D'Amelio. How do you pronounce her last name? D'Amelio?Stephanie:I don't know, and I'm surprised you know anyone on TikTok.Albert:But Charli D'Amelio, you'll see her name and it'll show you significant likelihood to influence dollars, it'll be significant, right? But then as a brand, you have to determine can you afford her, because she doesn't tweet or TikTok for you for nothing, right? It'll be hilarious. It'll say her agency, and of course, she's repped by a huge agency. So, that's where even tools like that, the problem is, let's say, the signal to noise ratio is still overwhelmingly noise and the ones that have tremendous signal, well, the problem is you can't afford it. So, I think the tools have to try to figure out by budget, almost, like how much ROI are you going to get per $1,000 of spend or something like that? That's probably going to be the next wave of measurement.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think also the platforms are trying to catch up to be able to actually attribute sales to these influencers. I know TikTok is trying to do that right now. Instagram's been trying to do that, but I think they are still implementing a lot of features to actually allow the influencers to get paid. So, I think with that, you'll see a whole new wave of new influencers and micro influencers as well because now they can actually get paid.Stephanie:I mean, I saw someone, they were talking about some... I think it was some coffee mug or, I don't know, a cup or something on TikTok, and it was on Amazon, but didn't have any links or anything, and it sold out on Amazon because this one girl was talking about the functionality of it and how much she liked it, and people were like, "Oh, how do I buy through your link? I want to make sure you get a cut of it." And she was like, "I don't need that. I just review stuff because it's fun." And so it's interesting seeing how you have influencers who really do care about that attribution and won't work without it versus the people who maybe are big influencers but aren't actually looking for that, at least not right off the bat, or maybe because there's friction right now, with setting up that model.Albert:Well, I think the bigger you get as an influencer, the more you could charge for your time than results. So, if you're a superstar, like, let's go with professional athletes, the original influencers, right? If you're LeBron James, you're Michael Jordan and someone wants to buy your name, you just charge them for the name. Like you're like, "I don't know if you'll get $1 of sales, I'm just telling you right now that I'm not repping your product unless you pay me this much money." Right?Albert:So, it's still this push and pull where brands want all this information, they want to know your audience, they want to know all that stuff, and then influencers themselves are getting so big. Like, we're reading about how these people on TikTok, kids, I call them kids, I'm old, but they're making 100 grand a month, and that's considered an average influencer. What are talking about? 100 grand a month to make TikTok dance videos, and yeah. So, I can see a brand wanting to be like, "Well, how much will I get for sales," and I can just see how tough it is when the kid on the other end says, "Well, I won't TikTok dance for you for under 100,000."Stephanie:I just read that the next generation is getting paid more than ever right now, not just for being influencers but just for a lot of things. They're demanding higher payment than any other generation before them. That's good, good intense though.Albert:Yeah. Listen, ask for whatever you want. If you can get it, you might as well ask for it. Why not?Stephanie:Very, very true. So, I think the high level summary for that one then it's just that most brands should be exploring influencers in your market, but also making sure that you're setting up the ROI and tracking it correctly, and maybe looking for those new tools that are coming out or that are already out to make sure that wherever you're devoting your budget to you actually can track it, where in the past maybe it wasn't as required by your company or yourself to have that many metrics behind it, but now you actually can, so I think it's worthwhile.Albert:Yeah. I actually think some of our other guests that really talked about investing significantly into the product and making sure that the customer experience from the moment that they sign up, to buy it, to they receive it, that that experience is airtight, because that's where you're going to find your influencers, right? I think a couple of the men's shaving companies like Supply and Beard Brand talked about how they built a community of people who move these products. Well, that's the ultimate influence right there, right? Constant good reviews of your products. And if you get lucky enough to find a Dogface 208, then you win. Albert:Dogface is the guy that skateboarded while singing Fleetwood Mac and drinking cranberry juice.Albert:Well, cranberry juice sales, all time high. So, this wasn't a paid campaign or paid activation, sales are at an all time high. They're talking about it might see Wisconsin cranberry farming industry. That's how much in demand cranberry juice is right now. So, if you have a great product, your likelihood of catching a wave I think is much greater than if you're just constantly paying influencers.Stephanie:Yeah. And I like that idea of make sure all your other ducks are in a row first before you start going after influencers. I think we've had a couple of guests who talked about you really need to make sure everything from start to finish, to unboxing, to follow up, that needs to be airtight before you start trying a bunch of other things, because then you are at risk of getting distracted and actually not being able to focus on, not only your core product, but also your customer experience.Albert:You got it.Stephanie:All right. So, the other thing that I think was interesting that a lot of people have talked about is, of course, like omnichannel, and one of our guests is talking about the reinvention of brick and mortar stores, and talking about how it's now turning to be more about experiential experiences instead of just going there to buy something, because so many people now are shifting to a place where they're actually very comfortable buying online, even if they never did before, and going into the store is more about having a good experience and something to draw them in there versus actually making a purchase in store. I think it's all about experiences now and people are going to expect something very different going forward than they ever expected before.Albert:Yeah. I mean, that's the magic question, right? People are trying to... I've read articles about re-envisioning the mall of the future. If I think about current present retailers that are doing a pretty good job, I mean, obviously, Apple Store seems to be like one of the leaders where I had not admittedly walked by an apple store recently, but I do remember back when I did, six months ago, there were a lot of people in there, a lot of people in there touching the products, getting a feel of the products, they made it a very hands-on experience. I can think of other businesses that have done a really good job. Like, why does every Bass Pro Shops have a giant aquarium in the middle of the store? Because they want you to go and look at it. You know what I mean? To pull you in. They know you're a hobbyist. So, I don't know how good businesses are going to be at doing that, but I know that they're all trying. I mean, they have to.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. I mean, when we had little burgundy shoes on, they were talking about how they were actually partnering with other people, other shops or people that are on the same street as them, even if it was a bank they're partnering with, and they were kind of doing giveaways or doing just different social business events or things like that, to make sure to get people in the store because they're like, "We don't really mind if you buy, but just coming in and getting that customer experience that we have, and being able to get in the vibe of the music, and actually experiencing our brand, even if it's only for a moment, is worth so much more than... Buying online is important, but we also want you to know who we are, and if that means partnering with other brands around us to give you an added benefit..." I mean, that's where I can see a lot of other brands doing that partnership strategy to try and get different customers that you would maybe never touch before in the same place.Albert:Yeah. Really, it remains to be seen that it'll work, because I always think, when I hear about the people with the rain experience, I don't question it at all, but I think also to Borders Books or Barnes and Nobles books, I felt like those are really inviting places. They got nice couches, good coffee, it smelled great, there's always baked goods there, you can read whatever magazine you wanted, or check out books, and they never kicked you out or nothing if you're hanging out there, but it didn't work. There weren't enough people buying the books, they were just chilling, I guess. So, I guess that's the real delicate balance, which is how do you educate, entertain and inform but also do it so much in a way that a person purchases the product versus, I don't know, coming in there and staying all day long?Stephanie:Yeah. That makes me wonder just about the business model, though, of like, are you encouraging people to buy, because... I mean, I don't know how the Amazon bookstores are doing now, but when I went in to them when we were in Seattle, it was just a very different experience because what you could get in the store was not what you can get online, not what you would get at any other bookstore, because there was actually, "Here's a review that we picked out," so you can kind of get a feel for this book, or, "Here's some of our top charting books right in front of you."Stephanie:So, it was kind of like it was bringing an online experience offline as well but in a very different way where I wanted to go in there, I wanted to hang out, but then I also found myself buying online afterwards. I was taking pictures of books and then I was just going on Amazon and buying. So, it seems like they figured it out there, and they don't have too much inventory to where they're holding a bunch of books and expecting them to sell, but it seems like it needs to move more to that model instead of thousands of books hoping someone comes in and buys.Albert:I can see that in a more curated... I know Amazon's experimenting with their five star stores where it's only physical products that have earned an average of four and a half, five stars. So, it's more of a curated experience, which is what we're more used to online, instead of looking at your whole catalog of crap, we see exactly what we're looking at what we want to see or the best stuff right up front.Stephanie:Yeah. And that's also something a lot of guests have mentioned, it's about that personalized experience and making sure that what you're showing the new customers, what they want to see. And I think the idea of curation too. I mean, people are trusting, not only these influencers, but also just people that they trust in general, where it's like, "Oh, my friend likes this." So, making sure that you can kind of show that or have that curated experience I think will be important going forward.Albert:Yeah. So, this is interesting, because I think this is actually a self-fulfilling prophecy of what's happening with consumer behavior and curation, which is, the more curated things become, the more likely or the lower the tolerance a person's patience becomes for browsing. Because I've read stats about how the average web browser, or consumer, whatever, spending less time on pages, clicking through less links, because they're constantly being served, let's say, what they want sooner, faster, so then they react that way. So, it's like feeding itself, right?Stephanie:Feeding the beast.Albert:Yeah. The consumer expectations. Like, if you don't know what I want within two clicks, I'm bouncing.Stephanie:You're done.Albert:I don't got time for those three clicks. I'm out.Stephanie:Yeah. That's tricky. I mean, it is kind of like building up a monster in a way where everyone's going to have to keep leveling up their game with how their new customers or current customers experience their shops.Albert:Yeah, it's going to be painful for merchants to do this, I think, it's going to be very painful. Or they can look at it the other way. There's an opportunity for a technology vendor that can do it. You know what I mean?Stephanie:Oh, yeah. Anyone who's got those good recommendations, yeah, they're already ahead of the game if they're implementing that.Stephanie:All right. So, the next trend, which actually no one really talked about, but it's more around partnerships, but I saw a very interesting partnership. I don't know if you have heard of that show on Netflix called Get Organized. Have you? Where they were going into homes, Reese Witherspoon, and they're organizing her house, and it's very popular now. Maybe your wife watched it. Have you heard of that?Albert:I can conceptualize what it is but I have not seen it or heard of it.Stephanie:Okay. So, they partnered with a Container Store, and they did it in a really good organic way where, of course, they're putting everything in containers and organizing it, and it made the container sales jumped by like 17% after this series went out, and I thought that's a really good example of not just product placement, but doing it in a way that wasn't annoying, and having, not only a partnership from the product perspective, but they also partnered with Netflix in the marketing aspect.Stephanie:So, it's like a good, well-rounded approach, but it also didn't make the content suffer. And I haven't seen a lot of companies do it that well. You always can think of other companies... I mean, there's product placement in almost everything, but you don't walk away being like, "Oh, I really need that to complete my experience." And I can just see a lot of more or a lot more unique partnerships forming like that in the future, where people are thinking outside the box and are not just doing the typical like, "Oh, let's just try this and see how it works." I can see more people experimenting with this, maybe not on that large of a level, but I thought that was a really unique partnership, and especially being able to see the sales jump right afterwards, it shows that it paid off.Albert:Do you think that was because they were actively solving a problem? Right? You're disorganized. I'm going to show you how to get organized. So, inherently the audience that watches it is looking to solve that problem, so inherently they then go purchase those products, or source those products.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, they definitely, of course, nailed the perfect person who would have an intent to buy as someone who's also trying to get organized, but I think the way they did it just wasn't like hitting you over the head with it, it was kind of like, "Well, here's what we use." It was like, "No big deal, if you want to use it too, this is what we use."Stephanie:And I think that's actually the perfect strategy of like, "We're not going to push this on you, and we're not going to be annoying about it, this isn't an ad, but this is just exactly what we use to make this look perfect." And I think there's a lot of opportunity for other brands to think about that, like, how do you do it in a way where the content is still good? It's not making you feel pressured, but it's in the back of your mind of like, "Oh, this is what I could use to be like Reese Witherspoon," which she's the best.Albert:It's the classic, like, is this a threat or is this an opportunity, right? Because it just depends on the eye of the beholder. But one of the things, to your point, that makes it a threat to existing brands is if they're not good at it. One of the opportunities influencer see is that it's now easier than ever to make and source their own products under their own brand labels, right? Think of the power that Chip and Joanna Gaines have gained, right?Albert:Now it's to the point where it's like they're going to be almost impossible to buy because Magnolia products is coming, and it's already here, and it's going to keep getting bigger and bigger, where they're going to... You already know they know how to organically insert their products into all their content of you already think their style is the best, you already think their builds are the best, you already think their personalities are the best, now they're not even doing the partnership deal, right? Now it's not like, "Oh, go to Target to get the Magnolia collection?" No, go to Magnolia to get the Magnolia collection, right? They're going to cut the distribution network out and just be like, "We're the distributors of this." And that's always a challenge, I think. I do think that's something that the brands get nervous about is because like, if you sponsor somebody and they do a really great job, well, what stops them from cutting you out of the equation?Stephanie:Yep. Which is also what a lot of brands are scared about with Amazon. I mean, we heard mixed messages about that where some people were very excited about partnering with them, they were getting championed on that platform, Amazon was promoting them, and they weren't really worried too much about it, they're like, "Why wouldn't you be on Amazon, because that's where everyone said you should be selling on there?" And then we heard quite a few other ecommerce leaders who were like, "No way would I get on there. You're not going to make as much money. You can't control the experience. You can't control where it's being seen. And I want to make sure my DTC company is being portrayed how I want it and I don't want it to be knocked off on Amazon." So, the same kind of thing there.Albert:Yeah, that's it, and that's never going to stop. Constant threat market share takeover.Stephanie:Oh, I know. Constant battle, but interesting to watch. I think those people should be on Amazon, though, because I do think that is where so many people are. It seems like, yeah, it's where you need to be.Albert:Yeah. Here's what's interesting. The biggest players have kind of stepped off, but like Nike, Nike has got so much... Nike has enough power, I think, to step off that platform, but if you're trying to be discovered, I mean, it just does seem overwhelmingly hard to do it without that distribution network. I think it's just tough.Stephanie:Yeah. When we were talking about ShoppableTV, I'm also thinking about... I mean, you might know this better since your kids are on some of these gaming type of platforms, but having Shoppable worlds, whatever that may be, seems like something that could be coming in the future but we're not there yet, probably. I mean, I know we are when it comes to virtually shopping for things, that like, "Oh, I want to make sure to get this. Whatever this is in this world, I want to buy it," but it seems like there could be an opportunity as well for implementing your products into those worlds that are being built up right now.Albert:Yeah. Personally, I'm not as bullish on that because I still think people want to... I don't know. I don't really know, maybe because I just don't do it myself, because I definitely see my kids being drawn in when they're playing games, like they recognize products. What's weird is, when kids. To me, it's what's weird. So, for anyone who has kids that play Roblox, my kids see things on Roblox and they want to buy them, and they're digital products.Stephanie:Yeah. What are they? What are they buying?Albert:Like the new sword? They're like, "I want this sword." It's like, "What sword?" It's like, "The digital sword." It's like, "What do you mean digital sword." It's like, "My character can carry this sword if I buy this with real cash." And that makes no sense to me. What are you talking about?Stephanie:Exactly. I think it could be transitioning eventually. I mean, yes, people will always want those digital swords, I heard that people are buying t-shirts in there. I want to make sure my little avatar guy is wearing the coolest t-shirt. I don't really understand that, but then I don't know if you heard about Fortnight had Travis Scott do a virtual concert and was watched by millions of people.Albert:Yep.Stephanie:There's a very big reason why people would be like, "Whatever he was wearing, I want to wear."Albert:Now, did you hear about Travis Scott's McDonald's deal?Stephanie:No. What's that?Albert:It was like the number one selling meal for the last couple months.Stephanie:Just McDonald's in in general or what's his meal?Albert:The Travis Scott meal. I don't know. It's literally his meal. You know what I mean? You can have a number one, you can have a number two, you can have a Travis Scott.Stephanie:It says the Travis Scott meal is a quarter pounder with cheese, lettuce, and bacon.Albert:I'm just saying that's the power of you talking about a digital world. Yeah. There's the power of influence too, but he's already a mega celebrity, right? But I view it as this, it's like, what people are into, and this is why, like I was saying before, I feel like I age out of this stuff very quickly, and we're talking about ever evolving change. I came from a time where if I didn't have a physical product in my hand, I didn't think was real. I remember when mp3s first came out, I was like, "Why would I buy an mp3?" It's like, "It's a digital version of your songs." "What if I lose it?" They would be like, "What if you use your CDs?" "But at least I'm in control of my CD." You know what I mean? Like, that's my CD. I know where it is. I take responsibility for it. I was slow to convert there.Albert:And I feel for me, I'm always slow to convert to digital products, but when I watch my kids, it's just unbelievable. I don't even think they're interested in physical products. They keep wanting digital things. They want more games, they want more currency for their players, they just want this stuff. So, that's why I kind of didn't answer that because I was thinking simultaneously in my head, this is never going to work, but I think I mean this is not going to work on me but this is going to work on my kids, because it's happening right now. I get things all the time on my Google Play app, iTunes account, like, "What is this?"Stephanie:Why don't you buy one more virtual sword?Albert:So, will company start integrating like t-shirt... All right. So, let's take one of our t-shirt clients, right? We've kind of asked our guests on Up Next in Commerce, we've asked this to all of them. How do you convey that your product is soft, silky, whatever their product descriptors are, to someone without them touching it? And so it makes you wonder, in the future, is someone going to see a yellow hammock in their virtual world and be like, "Huh," and it'll pop up a ding like, bing. "Not only can your character have a yellow hammock, you can have one too." It's like, "Oh, okay, cool."Stephanie:Yeah. Especially if you can kind of see it blowing in the wind, or you can see that shirt like, oh, that's form fitting on this person in my virtual world that I really like. If you can kind of see things and details about it that mimic it. I mean, it seems like there's an opportunity there, it might not be here just yet, and you definitely have to figure out the demographics behind it, because, yeah, I mean, like you said, you might not be interested in that.Stephanie:However, I was listening to a pretty good interview with this guy, Matthew Ball, he was the former head of strategy at Amazon Studios, and he had a really good episode talking about how he was the same as you like, "Oh, this just isn't my world, however, I see actually a lot of companies, they will start being able to adapt these same types of technologies to where the older generation will actually start adopting as well, they just are trying to figure that out right now like, what will they feel comfortable with and what are they looking for? Like, what problems can you solve to get them there?"Albert:It's going to be pretty fascinating when someone's upsell customer journey path is actually get the digital avatar to consume this product first and then offer the physical. You know what I mean? When we talk about the hammock, can you imagine that, like, "Oh, my avatar really likes this hammock. He seems great. I think I might get one for myself in real life." What?Stephanie:I mean, I kind of would. I would do it. You need to get in these worlds to really experience it, but I mean, it does just seem like that is where the world is trending right now, around these games. I mean, a company I follow really closely is Epic Games, I think they're-Albert:They're in out neighborhood. [crosstalk 00:35:26].Stephanie:I think their leadership team is brilliant around what they're doing with their platform and how they're essentially giving away almost all the underlying technology that other companies have been charging for for a really long time, and they're kind of building this really big moat to be able to expand in a bunch of different ways. So, I kind of keep tabs on them, and that also, of course, influences my commerce hat when I'm thinking about too like, "Oh, wow, these two worlds could blend together in a really unique way and whoever gets there first..." Usually, the first movers are the ones that can get that arbitrage. So, seems like an interesting spot to watch.Albert:Yes, the Unreal Engine, for our listeners that are not familiar. Epic built a platform called the Unreal Engine of which you can build your gaming world on so that you could use... think of it as less code, you had less code, less character development, it's all built for you, you just add your characters and they can build worlds for you. How they do it is they charge you a royalty fee, I believe it's like 5%, but only if your sales are over a specific number.Stephanie:Yeah, it's very beneficial to creators, and that's why a lot of people are moving to that platform now because they're used to having these apps where certain stores, they're taking like 30 and 40%, and if you move to Unreal, you're essentially keeping the majority of your sales.Albert:Yeah, and you don't have to pay until you reach a certain number. So, by the time you're paying Epic, you've already made it, and then you're fine with it, I guess. The number is tolerable. By the way, if you follow Epic Games founder, Tim Sweeney, on Twitter right now, he's in a constant fight with Apple over [crosstalk 00:36:56].Stephanie:Oh, I know.Albert:He does not like it.Stephanie:I wouldn't either.Albert:It's a fun follow, though. It's a great follow.Stephanie:Go, Tim. I'm going to follow you right now.Stephanie:All right. So, the last one that I want to talk about is... I think this is interesting. You might be like, "That's weird." But I think there's such a big opportunity for optimizing, not only your website for voice searches, but also potentially building out custom Alexa skills to solve a problem. I see people doing that right now, but not really in ecommerce as much, but think about having an Alexa where you're like, "Hey, Alexa, tell me what wine goes best with this kind of recipe." Or, "Hey, Alexa, suggest some outfit for me based on the weather today." And you kind of build a tool that's actually helpful that's also you know, of course, very close to your brand. And so you can become top of mind by building out those skills or just implementing voice search in general. I just think the world is headed in that way because the technology is starting to get better, but I don't see a lot of brands jumping on that right now.Albert:I think the ability for AI to understand intent and meaning isn't quite there yet. I'm trying to think of myself using my own consumer behavior, right? Do I use voice to text right now to enter searches? Yeah, because it's a lot easier than typing it in or swiping it in, right? So, if I want to ask Google a question, I will just click the mic button and talk. Would I do that to solve problems? I don't know, but I think I haven't yet because contextually, it's very difficult, but it won't be far, right. So, right now, I think a lot of people Google best. Do you know what I mean? Like you said, best way to do X for Y, right? And then the next level is going to be can NLP technology, AI technology, whatever it is going to be that understands the nuance and intent and meaning start making it super personalized recommendations?Albert:So, can you imagine if you went to Home Depot, because what you're talking about would be super cool, if you go to Home Depot and say, "Hey, my garbage disposal broke. How do I replace it?" And it just comes up with like, boom, "You're going to need this, this, this, this," and then it gives me a how-to guide of how I buy a garbage disposal, I'm going to need these tools, I'm gonna need the sealants, and getting them-Stephanie:Can you imagine saying that, like, "Here's exactly how you're going to fix it. Let me send you a video to your phone." And like, "You need like Albert's brand of screws." Like, they're literally dropping your own products in there like, "This is how I would fix it, and also, here's a how-to video," and you walk away being like, "Wow, I not only bought that brand stuff, maybe, or I didn't, but they're top of mind now. They actually helped me fix my garbage disposal." How cool would that be?Albert:So, speaking of this, there was a while ago where I believe it was the president of O'Reilly, I'm pretty sure it was. The O'Reilly Auto Parts basically came out and said that Amazon was not a threat because buying car parts is very complicated. I'm not saying he's wrong, right? Right now car parts really aren't bought on Amazon because you have to know what model you have, you have to know the year, the make, the model, you actually have to know something about fixing cars to even begin to find the part. But can you imagine a future where you can ask it a question like, you go to O'Reilly or wherever you go and you say, "My air conditioner is not cold," and it remembers your car models, "Oh, you're going to need X, Y, Z. Would you like me to book you an appointment if you can't do this yourself?" Like, "Yeah, book me one. I don't want to do this?"Stephanie:Yes, please. Yeah. No, I mean, that's where I think the world is headed. And I mean, we did have a good interview, it wasn't our first 50, it was one of our more recent ones, talking about the world of identity and how you should be able to go places and you shouldn't always have to refill in your info, it should know maybe what's your brand of car if you put it somewhere else before. I'm trying to think of what episode that was.Albert:Fast.Stephanie:Oh, yeah, Fast. Yeah, that was such an interesting episode. I mean, now it's coming up right after this one drops, but [inaudible 00:41:10], so interesting where he was going through. Not only are they doing payments and identity, but where the world was headed around you should always have a Buy Now button on every single one of your products and that you shouldn't just make people add stuff to cart and then do the shipping and all that, you should let them buy when they want to buy it. And he was talking about the conversions behind that. But all that gets back to the identity piece, which is what you're talking about, going into an auto part store, you should be able to say, "Here's what I'm looking for," and it should know, "Okay, based on the information I have about you, here's what I'm going to recommend for you," and make it seamless and frictionless.Albert:Yeah, everyone wants that.Stephanie:My future. I don't know what yours is, Albert?Albert:Well, I think it's going to get there. It's not a matter of if, but when, but I still know that NLP... for anyone that's used an AI chat bot yet and been frustrated because you asked a simple question and it's like, "I don't know what you're saying," it's like we're not there yet, but I think it's coming, for sure it's coming. The technology providers, though, are going to be the ones focusing on that the most. I don't know when the merchants can start tapping into that resource.Stephanie:Yeah. That's why it's interesting to kind of keep an eye on these new startups and new tech companies that are launching around this stuff, like Fast, or even like the technologies like GPT-3. When that came out, I was just reading a whole article about how this guy created a program where you essentially can just talk and it'll build a website for you. So, you can say, "Create a red button, have the drop down say this, have the picture do this, grab the picture from here." And it is no code. You are speaking and it is coding for you in the background.Stephanie:I think the world is headed there but you just have to try and stay on top of those trends or the companies and try things out, honestly, experiment with it and see if it could work without bogging things down. I know you have been the first to say that the amount of plugins that you add on your website are just going to bog it down, and website speed is number one, so there is that balance, but I think it's interesting to stay on top of the trends outside of just your current industry.Albert:Yeah. Are we going to get to the part where we all have our own Jarvis? I don't know. But if that happens, it will be cool. Jarvis from Iron Man, for anyone that's not familiar with what I'm talking about, right?Stephanie:I was actually familiar with that one.Albert:Yeah? There you go. Look at you watching movies and stuff.Stephanie:I know. Look at me. I'm so trendy.Albert:It's not trendy. It's definitely very old. I think it's like a decade old now.Stephanie:Yeah. Still great, though.Albert:Yeah.Stephanie:All right. Are there any other forward looking trends that you think are interesting right now. So, we essentially covered the things that were in the 50 episodes, which were awesome and really cool, high level themes, but all the episodes had really good, juicy nuggets in each one. And then we looked at some of the forward thinking themes that maybe weren't covered, but I just think are interesting. But anything else you can think of where you're like, "I think a lot of people aren't thinking about this or aren't paying enough attention to this world that could help an ecommerce store owner"?Albert:Well, we got to do a big shout out to my awesome producer, Hillary, who loves Peloton.Stephanie:She does.Albert:Because Peloton is a very fascinating-Stephanie:[crosstalk 00:44:23].Albert:So, I bought stock in Peloton, and here's the reason why. I've never encountered a brand that I can think of where people so emphatically talk about it. Peloton and maybe CrossFit. Everyone says, "The first rule of CrossFit is you can't stop talking about CrossFit," I think that's also applicable to Peloton, because people who have Peloton love Peloton. So, I think this concept of building community so that your product extends beyond the purchase of the product, meaning like you buy a physical bike but you would stay subscribed to Peloton services. Because I think every brand, or not every brand, because could you do it with a ball? I don't know.Albert:But brands and products companies are probably trying to figure out how do I create a subscription community? I think that is going to be a trend that you can capitalize on now because it doesn't require, I don't think, as much technology that doesn't exist, but it's more like how do you build ongoing services at a price point where customers never want to leave you? So, like, I don't know. Let's use my example of kitchenware. Should fork, and knife, and bowl companies have active cooking communities? I think they should.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, that was our interview with Food52, Amanda Hesser, that's exactly what they did. They built up this huge online community first and then they started reselling other people's products, drop shipping them, and then they created their own brand, and they did it in a way where they're like, "By then we had this huge community that we were doing cooking things together."Albert:Yeah. They could already forecast their sales. They were like, "Oh, we can automatically assume how many people are going to buy this."Stephanie:I know. And that was a long haul for them. I mean, she was the first to say that, however, I'm like, you essentially are launching to an audience that trust you, trust your content, you have this love for just anything that you're doing after you build this community, but trying to figure out how to do that right or figuring out what actually keeps people coming back and how to keep them engaged I think is really difficult without being annoying and without pushing your product too much. When you start in a more content focused way, it seems like it can be a lot more organic to build up those followers to then shift into a product where you have that trust. But it does seem hard when you're launching a new like DTC company and also trying to do content at the same time, it seems hard to figure that piece out.Albert:Yeah. And if we go back in time, right, Michelin figured this out. Michelin figured out that people weren't driving enough, so they created their star review system because they wanted people to drive and experience things all over the world, to the point now where here we are today, people still talk about Michelin star ratings for restaurants. It's still that important. People can't put two together and say, "Why would a tire company create that?"Albert:So, if you have that today, I think that's probably the next biggest trend, and you can already kind of see it happening. I think more products are going to try to create worlds or problems that their products and services solve, or whether it's exploratory or problem solving, I don't know. But when it comes to Peloton, I just think about the community that they've built, the fact that people just rave about the product. We got our buddy Hillary here, she's got a bike, it's not broken. She says, "They launched a new bike. The screen tilts so I can do yoga and then get back on the bike." It had a price point, a really high price point. I mean, Hillary was considering getting a loan to get this thing, which, by the way, they offer, they offer financing.Stephanie:We're going to put Hillary's... her like affiliate code, I don't know if she one. She needs one.Albert:Well, I'm telling you, the brand love that she has... But it's not just her. I say Hillary because, Hillary, we obviously work with her, but people love this product.Stephanie:There you go. Are you looking at our prep doc? She says h_tag24. Peloton all the time.Albert:Okay. If you want to buy, h_tag24. If you want to follow our buddy Hillary on Peloton, not only will she kick your ass in all these calories, or I don't even know what you guys measure.Albert:However you score points, she's scoring all the points.Stephanie:I don't know if that's a thing.Albert:Outputs. I don't know.Stephanie:Okay, outputs got it. This has gone into a bad hole. I'm not sure what we're talking about here.Albert:Well, we were saying like, what's the next thing to be aware of? I mean, I think that is closer than all those voice searches and things like that that you talked about, which I think are coming, I think you're going to see more companies build communities, and I also think you're going to see more companies burning out customers by trying to make everything like SaaS. Because one of my favorite Twitter handle to follow, everyone check it out, it's called the Internet of Shit, it's just non stop products that don't work if you aren't subscribed to their services. So, businesses out there that try to make me subscribe to make my refrigerator work, I'm anti-you. All right? Definitely anti-you, don't want to hear about it. So, follow the Internet of Shit, if you guys are curious.Stephanie:I have follow that one.Albert:But that's the delicate balance, right? How do you build a community of value that you charge for versus, I don't know, putting someone in entrapment where you're forcing funds out of them every month just to use your product?Stephanie:Yeah. I especially think after everything with COVID, people are also going to be dying for that community, even if it has to be online, I think it's going to be bigger now than it ever was before, because people have been cooped up and haven't been able to have that community like they may have been used to or they're actually maybe cherishing it in a different way now and they're trying to look for that. So, I think it'll be a big opportunity.Albert:There you go.Stephanie:All right. Anything else on your mind? If not, I think this was a fun episode. It was a good one.Albert:I hope so. I can never tell.Stephanie:You're really not, yeah. You're almost like, "I'm not sure." But yeah, I think this episode was awesome, it's really fun just kind of reminiscing through all the episodes we did. I can't believe we've already had 50. If you have not given us a review and a rating and subscribed, please do, because that helps spread the word, and we would love to hear how we're doing. We also have some really good interviews coming up, like we were mentioning earlier, the CEO Fast is coming on, we have a really cool company, Handwrytten coming on with [inaudible 00:51:04], Sheets and Giggles, Ring. We've got some big names coming up here, and yeah, I'm excited to do this next recap after the next 50.Albert:Until then.Stephanie:Right. Thanks, Albert.

What comes to mind when you think about the relationship with your manufacturers? Chances are you have the same picture in your head as so many other brands. You see a series of events that starts with opening a purchase order, and goes down the line of tasks including paying for your items, getting them shipped and then starting the process all over again. It’s a transactional relationship that has seen very little disruption through the years. But the times are changing, and a company called Italic is leading the charge when it comes to developing a new framework around partnering with manufacturers. Italic is a membership-based brand that gives customers access to products produced by the same manufacturers of the top brands in the world. Jeremy Cai is the CEO of Italic, and he likes to say that Italic is a marketplace-inspired supply chain. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explains exactly what that means. Jeremy describes new and different kinds of partnerships with manufacturers that, for the first time, makes them true partners in business. Plus, he explains why that partnership is leading to a better end product and happier customers. He also dives into new ways you can leverage manufacturers that many aren’t aware of, and details the metrics and strategies that subscription companies need to be focused on to rise above the competition.Main Takeaways:Getting in on the Action – Traditionally, manufacturers have not had to put much at stake financially when working with brands. But, with a company like Italic, the manufacturers take on a financial risk. In doing so, they also become more involved partners which leads to a better end product.It’s Deeper Than You Think – There is now a partnership opportunity between manufacturers and brands when it comes to designs and in-house pattern design capabilities t In the past, much of the design and pattern work was done solely by brands. But today, many manufacturers have high-quality design and R&D talent inhouse and create showrooms of products that brands can tap into.Meaty Membership Metrics – For membership-based companies, there needs to be less value placed on the traditional metrics that have so often defined ecommerce companies. Tune in to hear which ones are crucial to pay attention to.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce--- Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome to another episode of Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, cofounder of mission.org. Today, we have Jeremy Cai on the show, the CEO of Italic. Jeremy, welcome.Jeremy:Thanks so much for having me.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on the show. I was mentioning earlier, but I've read quite a bit about you guys. I see you in a lot of the eCommerce newsletters that I follow, so it seems like you're growing in popularity at least when it comes to people writing about you right now.Jeremy:I don't know if that's a good success metric, but we're doing I think a good job on media coverage right now.Stephanie:There you go. I think it's a pretty good one. Tell me a bit about Italic for anyone who hasn't heard about it, doesn't know what it is. I would love you to give a brief overview of what it is.Jeremy:Sure, so Italic is an annual membership that costs $100 a year and our members get access to hundreds of products that we design and develop inhouse, ranging from cookware to bedding to towels to apparel and accessory, footwear and many more coming soon, but the difference is we sell them at prices where Italic it doesn't actually make a profit. This actually results in pricing that is dramatically lower than both direct-to-consumer companies as well as traditional incumbents, oftentimes in the 40% to 50% to sometimes 70% to 80% range. We've been around for about two and a half years, but we've only launched the membership about a month and a half ago, and so far, it's been a pretty good start.Stephanie:Very cool. You have membership and you're not making money on the actual products. Tell me more about what would be an example of something you're selling and how are you encouraging people to sign up for a membership to get access to everything that you just mentioned.Jeremy:Sure. One example of the product that we sell, and this applies to all their products, is let's just take our slumber cotton sheet set, for example. The sheet set sells anywhere from I think ... Actually, I might have to actually look at this for cross reference, but I think it's like anywhere from $80 to $120. Those are prices where we're not actually making money. Those prices do include things like freight and warehousing and fulfillment fees, but generally it still comes out substantially lower than the prices that our competitors would set. Then in terms of how we're actually attracting new members, really I'd say it's from two general ways.Jeremy:One is I think the goal is for our members to be saving money on their first purchase. This oftentimes comes through the lens of product marketing. If we would do a great job of really letting the products tell their own story of saying how great quality they are, the same manufacturers of so and so brands are, which certifications these manufacturers have, what specific details of the products really sell the product itself, I think that actually helps sell the membership for us because we don't really have to say like, "Hey, with this membership, you're saving all this money." instead it's like, "Hey, this product is obviously really great and it's really high quality."Jeremy:Then once you look at the price point, the perceived value is like, "Oh, I'm going to save pretty much the entirety of my membership fee in one or two purchases," which we see in the vast majority of cases. Typically, 93% of our new members will break even on their $100 fee in one order, but on the flipside on the membership, this is different than the standard transactional model in which you have to be a paying member in order to purchase anything. I think we do have do a fair amount of education in terms of showing to our members or showing to our audience who might become members, "Hey, this product, you can only buy it if it's a membership. This is how the platform works. This is why it's different than a brand. I think we have to put out a lot of content in terms of actually sharing like, this is how we were able to put together this offering that doesn't really exist elsewhere."Jeremy:We do a little bit of both, but I would say right now we lean a little bit heavier towards product marketing since we have a lot of new exciting launches coming up.Stephanie:That's awesome. Talk to me through a bit about what was your thinking behind creating a membership program for because I think I saw you started out with it and then maybe you stopped doing it and they started again and feel free to correct me if that's not right, but tell me about what was that journey like.Jeremy:It was not easy. I would say the way I like to view it is the first two and a half years of our business, we've really been focused on the supply side of operations, building out that product assortment, and exactly like you said, we did launch in 2018 with a membership product. Within basically a month or two, we decided very, very early on like, "Hey, we had three manufacturers in three categories at the time, handbags, scarves and eyewear. As you can imagine, those are not necessarily high frequency purchases to substantiate a membership value proposition.Jeremy:We actually never actually charged anyone for the membership. It was always a test to see how the response would be. Overwhelmingly, we saw that the product response was great, the quality was great, but I think the offering was too limited at the time. Instead for the following two years, we ran a transactional model in which we made money through marking up our products, albeit not as much as a brand would. Our products might be marked up two to two and a half times, whereas our competitors will mark them up five, 10, 15 times sometimes. That's how we made our money.Jeremy:Really the incentive was, "How do we build a product assortment that's large enough, so I guess wide enough and deep enough to attract the member to actually convert?" Around, I would say, Q4 of 2019, to be totally honest, I think we saw two things happen. One was the structural, I guess, implosion of the venture direct-to-consumer model in which a lot of brands, I think, who had been raising money and then going out with this one playbook that hadn't been set maybe back in 2013 to 2017, I think suddenly realized, like, "Hey, we are not technology companies. We are a brand and we make money through transactional volume." Basically, I'm just trying to say we saw the writing on the wall if we were to continue that model.Jeremy:Then in Q1, we also took a hard look in terms of our user behavior. We saw frequencies of purchases, our lifetime values get to a place, our product reviews, our NPS scores all get to a place where we felt confident in our product assortment to date. When we first started, we might have had maybe 30 or so skews. Now, we have over 1,000 skews. It finally got to a point where the product assortment felt mature enough to launch a membership product. We tested that, and then basically right when we started testing it, that's also when COVID hit.Jeremy:We figured there's either two options. One was we just pull that and just focus on building the transactional model again and getting it into a sustainable place which is still the goal, right? We don't want to build an unsustainable growth model or alternatively stress test the model in the peak of, I think, consumer uncertainty in which we would see like, "Hey, does this value proposition of saving money resonate in the time when it would matter the most. Thankfully, it did and I think from April to May, June and July, we monitored our cohorts and user behavior really closely and wanted to make sure that the membership was something that we had conviction in.Jeremy:Eventually, we got to a point where we realized like, "Hey, this is ..." I guess the way I like to put it is our customers always liked us, but our members absolutely loved us. We decided to go all in and then finally released the public version of the product in July.Stephanie:That's great. That's good seeing quick pivots and seeing like, "What is the market telling us? Where are things headed?" and trying out different models. How are you going about building out maybe a financial model because I'm thinking if you have only a membership subscription-type model, there's probably only a limited market? You can't scale indefinitely. There's only a certain people who will be on that versus making profits off of each product. I'm sure those are two very different models. How to do think about it financially when trying the two different ones out?Jeremy:That's a very valid point and I think we knew going into it that there is a lot of subscriptions out there and a lot of subscription fatigue and at least the states in the US in which everyone has a Prime membership or a Spotify subscription or Netflix and to add one more to that is always asking a lot. I think we knew going into it like, "Hey, this is all or nothing in which you can't launch a half-baked type of membership product." I think to the financial level, I think two things are worth noting before we decided to do this. One was the fact that we are capping our upside to $100 very literally for pretty much the extent of the year and the incentive in that case is, one, can we launch products and provide a service that our members love so much that they'll stay for years to come in which our LTV or lifetime value in that case would become quite substantial and hopefully our churn would be low and retention would be high and so on and so forth?Jeremy:I guess that's one area is we really were aware of the fact that if we cap our financial upside that the immediate short term would be that we're limited to $100 for the year, but the amount of utility and value that we could provide to a member would be so great that they hopefully stay for years to come in which our LTV would grow to a point where we would actually outperform our transactional type of behavior. Then the second point, exactly like you said, memberships aren't for everyone. We're very well aware of that, but I think something that has been exciting for us to see is if we're able to build this type of product, I think it is genuinely massively different than anything close to us.Jeremy:Whereas most of these direct-to-consumer brands, they're basically providing products and a story to a customer which is an incredibly, incredibly competitive market. We have a product where it's like, "Hey, for $100, you get access to all the products we sell at a price where we don't make money. I think that's a genuinely differentiated product in which we know it's not for everyone, but we think value-driven commerce, it's not sexy per se, but it is something that is very attractive to a very large segment of the American consumer base. I think we were willing to take that bet.Jeremy:Of course, we wanted to monitor really closely so that we weren't losing money on transactions at least and at least that we were breakeven and we were able to accomplish that within the months of the pilot, so we felt confident in rolling it out more broadly, but I think to answer that more directly, if we didn't see user traction, if we didn't see members using the platform or membership or if we saw our NPS or product reviews drop or if we saw an increase complaint rate, increase return rate, etcetera, then I think we would have actually probably returned back to the transactional model, but it was something that we felt confident enough in just off of a couple months of data that we've decided to go all in.Stephanie:That's awesome. I think that's so great, because it really shows a longer term vision and commitment to be around where I think actually a lot of B2C companies right now are missing that. I don't know if it's because of the VC stage where it was like grow really quickly, but it seems like a lot of people are more ready to just quickly make as much money as possible, maybe sell the company off, see what happens afterwards, but I really like the idea of actually telling your customers, "Hey, we're only going to make $100 profit for the year off you that essentially cover some of our costs." I could see that really helping a customer want to also support you guys along with just wanting it because maybe it's a very good service and some platform they use.Jeremy:Thanks. That was pretty much the bat. The reality of the business right now is if you're a direct-to-consumer brand and you're starting out nowadays, you might raise one round of financing, let's say anywhere from $500,000 all the way to like $3.5 million or something of the sort if you want to pursue that route. That's pretty much all you're going to be able to raise or at least assume that's the last capital you're going to raise, and then subsequently, you're going to try to sell. Nowadays, what I've seen whether it's a PE firm or a conglomerate or a larger direct-to-consumer brand that might be interested in acquiring one of these assets, it's now valued off of EBITDA, as opposed to revenues or run rates which is what we saw in between 2014, let's say in 2019.Jeremy:I think the reality is nowadays if you're trying to build a venture scale business in this model, it's really, really tough. I think the actual advantage of doing so is doing so sustainably with growing off the business off of cash flow as opposed to equity raises and going that route. Then, I think for the companies that have already raised that are in this tricky spot where we were for sure, we had to look ourselves in the mirror and just say like, "Hey, what is something that would be significantly differentiated in the market that has technology scale outcomes that would be potentially accessible if we were to do everything perfectly right.Jeremy:I think that's the only reality where we can actually like continue as a venture scale business. I think that's what we had to really just operate with the mentality of. I think in terms of like the customer empathy too, we always knew that our prices were good, that we always came maybe 15% to 20% lower than the next direct-to-consumer brand, but truth be told, if you were to compare our products which were objectively great products next to a brand's products that built all of their community messaging, advertising, copy, etcetera off of that single category, 15% to 20% off might not be enough to sway one of their customers to decide to purchase the value option, whereas nowadays to go much, much lower into the 60% to 70% range, that's a lot more powerful sway.Jeremy:I think for us we knew that it was a risky bet, but I think the customer would ultimately like it a lot more and so would the investors and I guess, business community at large. I know the brands don't like us, but that's another story.Stephanie:Well, that's actually a good segue. I wanted to hear some of the behind the scenes of partnering with these manufacturers and thinking about the psychology behind, "This is also bought," or let's see, "It's manufactured at a factory that also produces Prada." I saw that on your website mentioning like, "It also manufacturers this, this and this," and I was curious to figure out like, "What was the process to partner with these manufacturers and then also be allowed to say, 'These brands are also built or manufactured at this factory as well'?" It seems like that'd be a tricky area to play in.Jeremy:I can't deny that. I think we have a unique value proposition in that case. That's really what drove I think, a lot of our early interest in the brand over the first two years. In full transparency early on, I was personally quite nervous about it since it is a pretty radical statement, especially since like we position ourselves not so much as an individual brand, so much as, say, a platform or a marketplace or a retailer. I think in the early days we were very careful. All these things, it's not to say that we've loosened up on this. We're still very, very careful about auditing all of our partners, making sure that we're working with the best of the best in each category, regardless of where they are in the world.Jeremy:Oftentimes, that comes along with saying, "Hey, this product is made in the same manufacturer as X, Y and Z brands." That's part of the selling points of the product. I think in terms of the tricky part was obviously on the manufacturer side. We have an interesting relationship with our manufacturers in which it's not like a normal brand in which they're a vendor and we're a client, where we just place a PO and then we'll mark up their products and then that's how we profit. The best we can do in that case is like get letters of credit or Net30, Net90, etcetera.Jeremy:Instead we actually have a financial relationship with our manufacturers in which they actually are taking on inventory risk and we're taking on the marketing risk of this inventory in which their incentive is to take inventory risk for a higher yield or higher rate of return on the inventory that they're producing and owning. Then our risk, of course, is making sure that we can sell that to our members at a price point that is still radically lower than the competition, but at a place where they'd be happy with the profits. I think that was actually the tricky part because manufacturing, and this is actually my personal like family background is a really hard business and margins are already razor thin.Jeremy:On a final sale, a DTC brand might take like 80% of the margin and cost might be like 20% and the manufacturer might actually take like 5% of that cost. That's honestly how it works. It doesn't matter if you're like a legacy brand or a direct-to-consumer brand. Manufacturers treat them all the same because it is the same for them. I think on the flip side for the manufacturer, they are not oriented to take capital risk. They have predictable revenue. If you place a PO, we expect payment certain date, whereas on Italic, there is no legitimate end date for a certain PO to be paid.Jeremy:It's a little bit nuanced and that was actually the hardest part I would say of convincing these manufacturers to join. It really wasn't the brand piece. The brand piece we're always very careful of ... We always do very careful audits to make sure that they're factual claims. We always do audits with our general counsel as well to make sure that we're making claims that are factual. On the trademark side and then on the copyright side, we have a development system when we're merchandising that there's at least a number of differentiating points on the product, but we've actually never really run into major issues on this.Jeremy:Perhaps that's because we're a smaller brand right now. As we grow, the issues might pile up, but at least for now, it hasn't really been, that the legal side hasn't been a big issue. I would say it's actually more so convincing the manufacturers to take on this new type of model, but I think now that we've been around, we have over 50 manufacturers we work with. I think we've had a really good relationship with all them thus far. Yeah, I think other brands always come into question, but it's never actually been like a point of contention.Stephanie:I could see that being really beneficial for you having the background in manufacturing for those manufacturers to also feel like, "Hey, this guy gets me he understands. He knows that we don't have big margins." I want to talk a little bit more about that piece. I could see a lot of the manufacturers really liking that you have a background in manufacturing because you understand that tight margins and you're not trying to maybe push them too far. I was wondering, one, had they ever done this model before where they're taking on inventory risk? Then two, were any of them scared to work with you because they didn't want to make the brands that they work with upset?Jeremy:I can answer the second one first, which I think it's actually pretty straightforward. That has never been a reason why a manufacturer wouldn't work with us. I thought it would be, I guess in actual practice, I think it hasn't been. The reality is most of these manufacturers have a number of clients and I think they will readily offer new clients the current client list and say like, "Hey, this is who we work with. You should trust us," as part of the vetting process. What we're doing is bringing that information that all the brands already know and offering that to a customer as well, so one more layer of information that a normal brand would never offer.Jeremy:The bigger issue with the manufacturer is actually more so just capital. It's like, "Hey, you got to fund hundreds of thousands of dollars for this first run and you're not going to see a payback until we start selling it, and depending on when we decide to launch it or decide to really invest in growing that category or product offering, the return might not be immediate." I think that was actually the biggest problem. Every so often what we'll hear that'd come up is like, "Hey, we prefer that not to happen," but with regards to the brand names being mentioned, it's never been a reason as to why a manufacturer wouldn't work with us. It's always been capital related.Jeremy:Then I think to the point of the model itself, I think people have tried different approaches to this over the years. In the States, at least, there is really no one doing anything like us right now because it is an extremely ... I would say like you really have to be aware of how manufacturing works, how to communicate with them, how to work with them, also how to partner with them. That's not something that like the vast majority of American brands will ever understand and for good reason. They really have no reason to because the entire business model of commerce is built on markups, as opposed to us where you can basically just treat them as a vendor. If it's not working out, if you need better pricing, you can always counter source and so on and so forth.Jeremy:The relationship there was always rather fragile, whereas for us it's very strong from day one because we have to be in which we become basically financial partners immediately. I think they haven't necessarily ... We work with manufacturers in Asia predominantly, in Europe, in the US and for the majority of them, these are not small mom and pop merchants or artisanal shops. They are pretty professional large scale production houses for very large runs. We work with like five different public listed manufacturers. I think for them, this model is, I like to call it like a private label as a service in which they can experiment very rapidly if it works.Jeremy:We do all the design and development in house, so we take care of pretty much all the heavy lifting on the stuff that they don't have, but if it works, great. If it doesn't, the downside is basically the capital that they put into it. We haven't had that happen yet. I think it's a new ... We like to think of it as like a marketplace inspired supply chain which none of these manufacturers have encountered before, but it is something that I think has promise.Stephanie:It's so interesting thinking about everything that's going on behind the scenes and I honestly have not even gone deep into the world of manufacturing, so I have so many questions, but one that comes to mind which is probably maybe a more basic one, but how did you even go about finding out who manufactured what products? If I owned Prada, which I do not, I definitely don't, but if I did, and I was like, "Hey, who makes this? This is really nice," I want to find out what factory it's coming from or who's actually behind the scenes making it, how did you even start that process of finding that out and then finding the next one, the next one and maybe getting referrals?Jeremy:Well, you just named it. Sourcing is a weird business in which it's still and this ... Not just sourcing, but a lot of the supply chain is still heavily relationships based in which it's like, "Who do you know? Who do you know? Who do you know?" and that's who you're able to work with. In the early days, I personally met and lived between China and Italy for the first year of the business and I met with hundreds of manufacturers, many of whom are now our partners, but in the beginning, were very skeptical, "Who is this guy? Who is this company?" I think the best way to put it, it's like in terms of sourcing, the best way to do it is through referrals.Jeremy:We've tried everything from digital platforms to sourcing companies to even trading companies just to see what type of quality and price point we can achieve, but ultimately, we've always found the best option would be to do direct sourcing ourselves. We actually have an internal team coming from the likes of Patagonia, Arc'teryx, Zulily and Amazon, really focused on sourcing the world's best manufacturers in each given category. Each time we want to enter a new category, we will always ask for referrals from our existing manufacturers. There's digital products that help you find manufacturers through other sources but generally we found the best have always come through referral.Stephanie:I think I've looked online before looking into, maybe this is a 3PL that I was looking at. Either way, that whole world seems pretty behind the times when it comes to trying to find things online and get details about it. It does seem like referrals would be the best bet in that industry.Stephanie:I was going to ask when it comes to inventory risk, you were mentioning that the manufacturers take on the inventory risk, do they also have a say when it comes to the pricing of the product?Jeremy:Yup, they definitely do. We are hand in hand with their manufacturers at every single point in the development journey, from material selection, color dyes and sample reviews and so on and so forth in which if we are talking about cost structures and cost payments, or sorry, sample reviews, we're always thinking about price and we're always very transparent with our manufacturers in terms of what our research tells us. If we believe a certain price threshold is too high, we'll tell them, and vice versa, they'll tell us like, "Hey, this is getting expensive. Do you think your customers or members will still want that?"Jeremy:Ultimately, the incentive for manufacturers to earn a higher than normal profit margin on Italic sales because they're taking on the inventory risk, so there, we're able to pay them out substantially more than they would ordinarily make. I think they're very in tune with our orders, sometimes even more than we are in terms of the performance. We've also built a lot of internal dashboards that we'll share with all of our manufacturing partners for them to log into, review the performance. Sometimes, we'll need to set price points that are lower, so that will encourage a product to move faster and they're able to cut down on their margin, but still again, it's at price points that are pretty much close to cost.Jeremy:It doesn't really moving the needle too much nowadays that we're past the transactional model. It's easier to do that on the development side when we're actually developing these products, or on the flip side, if a product is actually performing way too well, they might actually ask for us to develop a more premium version or a version that uses a high quality or a more expensive material, not necessarily higher quality, just a different material. For example, we started with cotton sheets. It was sateen. Now we offer percale and we're looking into linen. Then we also offer eucalyptus lyocell sheet set as well. Those were examples of where we saw their consumer demand really expand what our manufacturers want to develop and as a result their price points were able to change quite a bit depending on the product.Stephanie:I was thinking about that these manufacturers probably have a ton of insights into what's selling with their other brands, what consumers are interested in. I'm wondering, are they even allowed to share that and help influence your guys product designs and say like, "Hey, we see this plain shirt with like a lion on it and selling really well with Anine Bing," which we just had on the show?Jeremy:I guess there's two ways to look at it. One way really is from the lens of like, "Hey, the manufacturer has what I call like extraordinarily delayed insights into performance," in which the only time the manufacturer actually knows about how well a certain skew or style is doing. We're primarily talking about fashion and apparel and other soft goods and home for example. It's a little less seasonal or trend driven, but in apparel for example, a manufacturer will only know the performance of the line after the season or after the client comes back and places the reorder in which their insight is already delayed by a whole, let's say six to nine months.Jeremy:By then, it could already be out of stock or out of favor with the client. The second point is actually much more interesting in which this is the dirty secret of a lot of these brands is the manufacturers nowadays have significantly improved and really, really sophisticated design and development inhouse capabilities. Historically, let's say 30-40 years ago, a lot of the design and development and pattern making and so on and so forth was always done on the brand side. Nowadays, I really call it more of a partnership in which the design and R&D talent inhouse at a manufacturer is so great that sometimes, and this is like extraordinarily ...Jeremy:This is not just like startups. This is like huge multinational brands, all the way to brands just starting out in which their buyers and merchandisers or product developers or designers will walk into a showroom that a manufacturer has made for a season. They'll pick like four or five styles from the manufacturer's design books or pattern books and then say like, "Okay, let's make some small tweaks, but pretty much, it's the manufacturer's design that we're iterating on."Stephanie:Oh, wow. I definitely would never have thought that.Jeremy:It saves a lot of time if you think about it because developing patterns from scratch is really time intensive. You have to ship samples back and forth all the time, whereas if a manufacturer already had a lot of these samples ready to go for you and you just had to tweak, let's say, the material or stitching or whatever it is on apparel specifically that it cuts down development time significantly. It happens pretty much everywhere and really the designers at that point in time are not really designers, but they're just iterating on the final versions of products. I think-Stephanie:That's a good secret that I never knew about.Jeremy:[crosstalk 00:33:15].Stephanie:When you're thinking about getting maybe inspiration though and you're looking around at some of the more luxury brands, how much of that can you actually take and use? Because when I'm thinking about, there's certain things that without a logo on it, you probably be like, "Is that from Walmart?" Sometimes the logo makes it where if it didn't have that, I don't know, personally, why anyone would ever buy it. I sometimes don't know why they would buy it either way have you ever had an experiment like that where you've been trying to maybe let a brand or popular brand influence products where then you're like, "Oh, actually, the logo kind of made that one."Jeremy:I think the way I would respond, one thing we really care about a lot at Italic is having a data-driven sense of merchandising in which we're using our customer insights to really drive the product decisions that we're making, both on the technology front as well as the product development front for our physical products. I think what we realized is, to your point of, "Does a logo make a product or does the product make the logo?" which is actually maybe a good way to think about it, is the fact that logos matter to some people and it doesn't matter to other people, but everyone has a specific category in their lives in which they care about having a logo and then vice versa like that same person might not care about having logos on other products that other people might.Jeremy:I guess a better way to put it is let's say you really care about having a logo on your handbag, but you actually, and I don't know if this is true or not, but let's say you don't actually care about having like the top of the line logo on your bedding or all-clad cookware or Le Creuset Dutch ovens or what have you, right? Let's say that's actually the mentality. On the flipside, I think there's a lot of people out there who would actually have the alternative approach which is like, "I don't care if I have a big fancy handbag, but I am really into cooking and I want the fanciest cookware and I need to have like X, Y, Z brands cookware in order to feel good about my purchase.Jeremy:What we found through a lot of our, I guess, our surveying is, one, the main reason why people buy from us is quality in terms of the product and the second is design and overarching, I guess, the main reason why you sign up is because you're getting quality at cost. The price point and the value you're getting out of your products is really, really high relative to pretty much any other option out there because we're not making money on the products that we sell. I think what we found is the people who sign up, if you're a fashionista for example, you're probably not going to buy our fashion products, but you might actually sign up for your home goods and then vice versa, someone who really cares about that specific type of bedding or having really great towels or candles or what have you, but doesn't really care about having a logo or the next trendy thing.Jeremy:The way we look at merchandising is really anti-seasonal in which we're trying to find products that are always evergreen. They might not be always in style or in vogue, but we know that they're consistent things that people will always want to buy. That's why we try not to fall too hard into having a specific branded look on our products. The product should be able to stand for their own.Stephanie:I like that. I'm just going to say quality always matters, I would think and I'm definitely your person because I'm a logo-less person. I don't care about the brand or where they come from. If the quality is good, it doesn't matter to me who makes it as long as the quality is good and something lasts. I like that. When we're thinking about metrics for subscription business, yours is very unique, of course, because right now, you're like, "We're not going to need more than $100 per person," but how are you guys tracking things? What metrics are you looking at right now to see if things are going well?Jeremy:We've changed our metrics a lot as we transition from a transactional model into a subscription basis as you can imagine, but what was interesting for me is because we run this type of membership in which it's not a ... I guess before I get there, in my mind, there's three types of consumer subscription products. One is you get something in a box every month and it's on a set frequency that you can customize. Secondly is you're paying a subscription for a discount. Then thirdly, as you're paying subscription for access to a certain product, whether it's digital or offline or whatever it is. I think we fall into the latter two in which you're paying for Italic because you want a discount on your products, but you're also paying for access to even shop those products in the first place.Jeremy:I think when we actually transitioned into this model, we realized like, "Hey, all this transactional revenue, metrics that we're tracking are actually great indicators of engagement. Now, those are our leading indicators of, "Are these members happy? Are they getting the most out of their membership? Are they unhappy because they're not using it? Are they logging back in? Is the conversion rate high for members? Is our average order value growing as we add new products or is that actually shrinking in which the products we're adding are actually lower price points?" so and so forth. It's a pretty sophisticated, I think, model that we've had to build in order to actually price these products at a price where we're not losing money on each sale but also not making money.Jeremy:It's on the engagement side all the things that historically eComm companies would track, your conversion rate, your LTV, your frequency of purchase, your contribution margins. These are all things that have now become like performance indicators on a membership basis as a cohort of how we track a certain cohort doing overtime, but now what matters on the company side is actually, "Are we adding new annual subscribers happily? Are they staying? What's our opt out rate? We offer like a 30-day period in which if you sign up and you decide not to place an order and you want to get a refund, we'll provide that, no questions asked. Right now, it's 5%.Jeremy:I think like those questions or metrics that we've done a pretty deep dive in terms of like what we actually want to see. Now really that the core metrics are like, "What's our new annual recurring revenue because it's an annual plan?" and then secondly what is ... We don't have retention yet since our first cohort is still seven months out from renewing. The second indicator of that is like, "What are all the engagement metrics telling us? Does that suggest that they're likely to churn or stay?" I think those are like the metrics that we've transitioned towards. There's a lot more that I could dig in there, but that's at a high level how we think about it.Stephanie:That's great. Are there any methods right now that you're experimenting with and seeing success around when it comes to keeping your users engaged or staying top of mind to them or even like different things that you're changing for the website that's connecting more with the customer when they're coming there? Any tests overall?Jeremy:I think we aren't great about testing and I'll be really forthright about that. We don't have much testing infrastructure built in. We don't have the ability to test their pricing. AB test for us are really just like, I think, very, very incremental changes. I think the biggest [inaudible] which is the transition from the transactional model and I guess the best way to really put this is like for example, during our pilot, we saw behaviors and frequency and lifetime value that we would expect on a transactional customer at month 12. We saw that on a membership level between weeks four to six. It was a literal 10x increase in utility activity for that member versus a customer who would otherwise purchase the product as a standalone.Jeremy:I think that's what I meant going back to the point of customers liked us, members really love us. That was something that we really saw. Then I think in terms of metrics that we're looking to test or at least improve with our customer that can improve the experience for them or at least hopefully it will increase our retention rates, I think that really comes in the form of, "What are the products that ..." The main four reasons why people opt out just for full transparency, one is it's international and we only serve the US, so they actually sign up through eagerly and they're like, "Hey, I didn't know that it's US only." That's actually the number one reason.Jeremy:Number two is financial. It's like, "Hey, I got furloughed or I was laid off," which happened a lot in the early days in April and May. Nowadays, it's less common, but the last two are ones that we can directly address. One is, "The product offering is currently not broad enough. You don't have a product that I want to see or a category that I wants to see." Lastly, "The products that I want are out of stock." This are directly in our control. For example, we'll show now in the coming soon page like what products are coming next for our members and that keeps them excited.Jeremy:Secondly is what products are being restocked. We're placing much, much larger orders, so that hopefully we don't have these out of stock issues. Really the reason was like our members just purchase at a substantially higher frequency than the nonmembers did. We actually underordered prior to the membership, because we didn't know what to expect. I think those are things that ... There are certain features like that that we developed for that use case, but really the only thing that we can solve for in a long-term basis is just develop more products, order more deeply, and hopefully as a result, acquire more members.Stephanie:I love that. I think that's a really good point too about how to keep people engaged and coming back to see like, "Okay, what's coming next? What's the new t-shirt that's coming out that I can get really excited about?" because I could see a lot of members maybe, at least in my head, I would think like if I am in a subscription or a membership, I would probably frontload a lot of purchases right away to get that value and then I might forget. I think that's really smart to find ways to keep someone like me engaged coming back maybe a couple months later if I forget, so that I will renew after the year.Jeremy:Exactly. I think for us really, the goal isn't necessarily to make you buy more stuff if you don't need it. The goal is to hopefully show that, "Hey, you're going to get enough value out of this membership, so that you're going to stay another year, or two or three or four or five in which there's a constant drop of new or a constant allure of new products that will be down the line such as products in travel. For example, we just launched our jewelry line last month and that sold out in a week's time. Now we know, "Hey, there's a lot of demand for that. We should order much deeper in it" I think constantly testing on the product side is something that we do a lot, but now that we're not making money on the transactions, we're not trying to force you to use it unless you want to.Stephanie:Very cool. I saw that you guys had a signup list. I think originally it was over 100,000 or something along those lines. I was wondering, how are you going about acquiring new customers? What kind of channels are working well for you right now? What are you finding success in?Jeremy:The hardest question for anyone in eCommerce nowadays. In 2018, we had a strong waitlist going into the membership, and then once we launched, we were like, "Hey, the membership is not going to work. We dropped it in, and instead all those people on the waitlist became our email subscribers and we were ... Fortunately, they eventually became customers as well. That was where a lot of that 100,000 original list went to. Then more recently, we actually had another waitlist. This time, it wasn't for marketing purposes, but it was actually like a legitimate operational waitlist in which we simply didn't have enough inventory to serve all of our members to a great experience in which if you've logged on in the third of all the products were sold out, that's not something you want to see as a first time experience.Jeremy:We have the waitlist up for a while, up until we can restock more deeply to address those issues which we've recently done. In terms of the new customer acquisition, I'll be like totally honest. It's a mix of performance marketing and brand marketing. We internally separate our marketing team into two. One is brand which is everything nonpixel-based or nonattributable to a pixel. Everything growth is pixel-based in which it's pixel through Google and the intention of growth is to grow the membership base. The intention of brand is to keep our cost per acquisition on the growth side low, so that hopefully it's not the first time that you're seeing, let's say, an ad from us, but instead it's actually a recall.Jeremy:Examples of that would be like influencer would be in brand. TV would be in brand even though I know there's pretty good models for tracking nowadays and attributing podcasts we still put in brand. All these things ... I guess I'm being hypocritical because those do have pixels nowadays, but really the intention of those is to get in front of you first, so that by the time that you see a Facebook ad or a Google ad, that you're already aware of where we are, so your interest is already piqued.Stephanie:Cool. All right. We have a lightning round coming up. Before I move on, is there anything that you were excited to cover that I forgot to ask?Jeremy:Well, our basics are dropping tomorrow-Stephanie:All right. Well, tell me more about the basics.Jeremy:We've had a line of recycled t-shirts for a while and those were really, really popular through a lot of quarantine. The number one requested kind of products for us for years has been a line of just great Ts, plain really high-quality t-shirts. It's finally coming out. I've been waiting literally a year for this. I'm super excited, but that's all. That's it.Stephanie:That's great. I love a good t-shirt. Actually, maybe it's always been a trend and I just haven't paid attention, but now it feels like it's really coming back to just wear a normal plain t-shirt or just something like simple on it. It feels like it's coming back strong, but maybe it's always been here.Jeremy:That's not surprising. I feel like a lot of people nowadays ... I'm sure there's a lot more people out there who could speak much more eloquently on why basics are great, but basics are always in vogue and our members have been requesting it very actively, so I'm excited to finally get that out.Stephanie:I will definitely have to check into that when it drops. All right, let's move on to the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Jeremy?Jeremy:Yes.Stephanie:All right. What's up next on your reading list?Jeremy:Well, I actually just got a copy ... This is going to put me in a bad light, but I don't always read business books, but I just got a copy of Reed Hastings new book. I'm excited to begin. I literally just got it right before this interview. That will be next.Stephanie:Cool. What's the title of it? I don't know if I know which one that is.Jeremy:No Rules Rules.Stephanie:I'll go check that out. You have to let me know if you like it.Jeremy:Yeah, will do.Stephanie:All right, what's up next on your Netflix queue?Jeremy:I've been actually watching The Legend of Avatar which is-Stephanie:I don't know if I've actually seen that one.Jeremy:It's an anime, cartoon that used to run on Nickelodeon as a kid and I forgot how good it was, so I just watched that again.Stephanie:That's great. Netflix probably knows not to advertise that to me. They're like, "You just probably won't like that one." All right, if you were to have a podcast, what would the podcast be about and who would your first guest be?Jeremy:I've actually been thinking about doing one.Stephanie:You should.Jeremy:It's been on the list. That's actually why I have this fancy bike here.Stephanie:You do sound great, though.Jeremy:I think I wanted to do like a podcast show where ... I live in Park City, Utah. There's a lot of great ... I took up fishing during quarantine. I haven't really caught anything, but it's really relaxing. I thought it'd be fun to go out and go fishing and then do an interview at the same time. I think guests-wise, there's so many people out there. One brand I've admired for a long time is the, and I like loosely know them, but I've really liked the Buffy team for a long time. I feel like they're pretty unique. They have a lot of success, but they've still been humble about it and low to the ground. I think it'd be really cool to have them. My background isn't just like eCommerce and retail. I think it'd be a mixture, but yeah, that'd be a cool one.Stephanie:I like it. I can only imagine you catching a fish while trying to interview and how that was found. Interesting. All right, what is the favorite piece of tech that is making you more efficient right now or that you're enjoying?Jeremy:Oh, man, that is a tough one. I use a lot and the whole Italic team makes fun of me for it because I always add something new every week. I think the one that stuck with me for years is this company called Missive. It's a collaborative email inbox that allows the entire team to work in conjunction on emails. Let's say it's an email with a vendor or an email with a YouTuber who we want to advertise with, we can collaborate in line without having to go to Slack or take it to another email thread in the same place. Missive and Front in the same vein does the same thing. I think those two products are ones that I really couldn't live without.Stephanie:That actually sounds really good. Can you send it out? If I was one of your employees, could I say, "Send this out under Jeremy's email because he gets better responses as the CEO than I will"? Personal question. This is something I actually want to know for myself.Jeremy:There's actually a setting to do that in which you can share an address and other people, like let's say an assistant can send it for you, so yes.Stephanie:I like that. I'll check that out. Awesome. The last, slightly more difficult question, what one thing will have the biggest impact on eCommerce in the next year?Jeremy:I'm not going to give you the cliche answer and say COVID changed everything, which it did, but-Stephanie:We all know that now.Jeremy:I actually think it happened last year and then I already alluded to this earlier, but I think the biggest change will be the transition from ... People have been talking about these like DTC waves. The first wave was like the Bonobos, Warby, Everland 2008 to 2012 era, and then, the second wave was like everything thereafter. A lot of the direct-to-consumer brands you see nowadays, it's the category leaders per se, but I think now people ... Let's say from, I don't know, 2014 to 2018-2019. I think there's been a big change in the operating mentality of these newer brands in which if you're a new brand starting out, you can't go out and raise these massive rounds that these companies used to off of revenue growth because people have realized now, this is not technology revenue growth. This isn't like an 80%, 90%, north of gross margin product.Jeremy:There is a saturation level to performance marketing. I know I'm sounding like quite cynical here, but I mean that actually in an interesting opportunity in which you can actually raise that money, but I think if you're creative about cashflow and you're creative about how you grow the business, you can build a huge business. I guess Gymshark would be a great example of this in which you can bootstrap to a really large volume without having to raise equity financing. I think you can do it through focusing on cash conversion cycle which is what Gymshark has with its founders or you can have in any case of owned supply chain like House or Buffy does.Jeremy:I think there's different ways that you can frame the direct-to-consumer model that allows you to still grow, but I think the era of venture-backed DTC, getting into the series, A, B, C and onwards is probably over. I think that's already happened and I think that will probably be the biggest impact on the ecosystem.Stephanie:I completely agree with that. If you sound cynical, then I think cynical too, because I completely agree with that. That's a really good point. All right, Jeremy, this has been such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Italic?Jeremy:Italic is on italic.com and I am @jjeremycai, J-J-E-R-E-M-Y, C-A-I on Twitter. I think that's the easiest way, but we'd love to have anyone as a member.Stephanie:Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the show.Jeremy:Thank you.

Brand loyalty is something that every company wants but few actually attain. To build a loyal customer base, you need to provide the best experiences possible, offer unique products or services, and deliver on quality and in a timely fashion. It’s a tough ask, and for those in the grocery industry, it’s even more difficult since differentiation between product selection is not as easy as it might be in other verticals.  But when it comes to customer loyalty, there are ways to separate yourself from the pack.  And that’s where Rachel Stephens comes in. As the Vice President of Marketing, Digital and Loyalty for Stop & Shop, a major grocery chain with more than 400 stores, she thinks about this every day. Thanks to a new online platform and through a loyalty program that customers actually want to engage in, Rachel explains that Stop & Shop is finally gaining access to some of the dark data it couldn’t access in the past.  On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Rachel explains why that kind of data is a true game-changer for any brand. Plus she reveals some of the consumer psychology that she looks at when building loyalty programs, and she peers into the future at how the use of A.I., machine learning and natural language processing will further advance not just Stop & Shop’s ecommerce experience, but the entire ecommerce industry. Main Takeaways: Is it Actually on the Grocery List?: When building or improving loyalty programs, having an understanding of data is critical. Everyone has to take on the role of data scientist and look at the data analytically, especially as it relates to consumer behavior. Just because a customer says they want something or they intend to make a purchase, does not mean the data will always show that. Word for advice: trust the data and build a program around what is actually happening instead of what customers are saying.   Accessing Dark Data: For too long, grocery stores have asked only for customer phone numbers in order for them to have access to loyalty cards. But if that phone number isn’t linked to a real name or address, and is changing hands faster than an email address would, there is a huge amount of data left in the dark, which makes it impossible to build a meaningful database of customer information. To access that critical data, companies need to build programs that are truly enticing that customers want to share their data with that helps not only the brand but also the consumer. The Psychology of a Discount: Tune in to hear what Rachel saw in the data when reviewing their sales and discounts. Hint: higher is not always better. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, I'm your host Stephanie Postals, co-founder of Mission.org. Today we have Rachel Stevens on the show, vice president of marketing, digital and loyalty at Stop & Shop. Rachel, welcome. Rachel: Thank you very much for having me. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on. I saw a little bit of your background before hopping on here and I got very excited when I saw that you have worked at the TJX companies, which I was hoping we could start there with your background. Rachel: Are you a brand fan? Stephanie: Oh, yes. I mean, I love TJ Maxx and when I saw that I'm like, "Ooh, this is my interview. This is the one." Rachel: Yeah, I was actually the assistant vice president of CRM Loyalty [inaudible] within TJX. And that really matched the TJX rewards program ... was a program that fell under my group and my responsibilities included the day to days and ensuring that our customers really wanted to participate in our program, our loyalty program so that we had clean data at the end of the day. And we were able to provide additional value in savings on top of what customers were already saving with the strong value that TJX stores provide. Stephanie: Very cool. How did you first get interested in the world of loyalty marketing, what lead you there? Rachel: I started actually in loyalty marketing at Pet Smart in their corporate headquarters in Phoenix and I think the thing that really appealed to me was marriage of data and customer communications, so understanding what customers say and what customers actually do is vital, I think, to the success of an organization because customers can say, "Yes, I have intent to purchase X,Y,Z." But when you look at the actual data, the data doesn't lie. Rachel: So, loyalty programs give you a vital tool for success within your organization to take a look at consumer data and then apply your marketing tactics really that are from acquisition, retention or reactivation perspective based on what that consumer is doing in a particular moment. So it's really, to me, such a great marriage of a lot of different areas within marketing and it just was something that I developed an immediate passion for. When I started there on the Pet Perks Program and then went to TJX to work on the loyalty program for TJ Maxx, Marshalls, Home Goods, [inaudible] Trading Post, and HomeSense, I feel like when I was there honed in on my skills within the loyalty space, so the position at Stop & Shop to really develop the role and develop what the new program was going to look like was incredibly appealing just because of my passion for this space and for retail. Stephanie: That's so much good experience to be able to bring to Stop & Shop. How have you seen consumer behaviors or loyalty programs having to change since you started? Rachel: Since I started in loyalty or since I started at Stop & Shop? Stephanie: I'd say in loyalty program, in loyalty overall. Since you started back in the pets days. Rachel: Yeah, I think there was a transactional nature to loyalty programs in the past. I think it was you give and get and that was usually based in points programs whereas today obviously I think more experiential programs have come about and providing more omni-channel experience, which wasn't really the case back when I first started within the loyalty space. I'd say that there's a number of people that really do a great job at this. I think Sephora's loyalty program is top notch. They do an excellent job at marrying the in-store and the online experience, really making it truly omni-channel tied in with their loyalty program. Rachel: I think that a lot of retailers have caught up and are doing a good job and I still think there's a lot of room to grow. And I think grocery retail was stuck in the loyalty stage of two tier pricing and I think we have a to model grocery loyalty programs more after what a lot of other retailers are doing in the loyalty space and even hotels. Airlines, I think that soft benefits and providing experiential benefits are really critical to the success of a program. Stephanie: Yep, yeah completely agree. Now that we're touching on grocery a bit I would love for you to explain what Stop & Shop is for anyone who doesn't know. Rachel: Sure, Stop & Shop is actually a grocery retailer with over 100 years in the industry. It started out as a very small grocery in the east coast and now we have over 400 stores and of course our online experience at Stop&Shop.com and the Stop & Shop app. Stephanie: That's great. And Stop & Shop, you guys just started moving into e-commerce, right? I think I saw that you launched a new platform just in a couple months ago, am I right? Rachel: We did actually, on July 28th in fact. We launched ... we had Peapod with a partner company. Peapod actually was owned by Ahold Delhaize, which is the parent company that owns Stop & Shop and we have integrated Peapod into Stop & Shop now. So, within Stop & Shop's footprint to order grocery delivery or to get pickup you actually now go to the Stop & Shop website or the Stop & Shop app versus Peapod. That integration occurred again at the end of July, and it's been going incredibly well so far. Stephanie: What was that transition ... what did that look like behind the scenes of not only integrating a current path that people are using but also I'm sure adding on additional functionalities that maybe weren't already there. What was the process behind the scenes or any maybe hiccups that you guys experienced when you were going through all this because it sounds like a big project. Rachel: Yes, yes. In fact, huge project. And all of our sister brands went through the same scope of work at the same time. We work with an internal agency who actually is responsible for all of that development work. And the agency actually had to develop the platform for all the brands. There was Giant Martin's out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania and Giant Foods in Maryland, also went through the same transition. Rachel: And there was obviously ... it requires a lot of work to marry the database, really marry those platforms. There was a Stop & Shop website, a Peapod website and H Brands app, so marrying those together was a huge, enormous undertaking that has taken approximately two years. And when I first started two and a half years ago actually that was really when we had worked on all the business requirements for this project. And it just takes a significant amount of time to match up all the data on our customers and combine those platforms and ensure that everything is running smoothly because if you think about the number of transactions that the Peapod site had going through it before and the number of customers that were going to the Stop & Shop site, you can imagine that there's just a tremendous amount of customers that we wanted to ensure were not left behind in this transition. Rachel: So, there's definitely a lot of work that went into this project and in terms of hiccups, of course there was a lot of those. But I think you try and block out all of the things that went wrong during the launch and you just only remember the good, right? Stephanie: Yep, that's great. And I'm also very familiar with Giant. I'm from Maryland. I'm sure everyone else is like, "What's that?" I know very well what that is. Rachel: Oh, great. That's great. Stephanie: Yeah, so when you guys are thinking about launching this new e-commerce platform, what kind of opportunities were you excited that it would open up? I'm sure you get access to new kind of data and you can have new offerings and you can send that data maybe to your other partners and maybe they can give you deals. What things were you most excited about that you didn't have access to before? Rachel: I think that what I'm most excited about is omni-channel data access. We did not, again, have that before because it was Peapod who really had all of the data for delivery and pickup and Stop & Shop who had all the brick & mortar data. The combination and looking at a consumer from an omni-channel, to me, is what's most exciting. Rachel: If I'm going to do a marketing campaign using digital tactics or any sort of in-store tactics I really need to know what you do as a customer. You could channel switch, you could go from pick-up to in-store to delivery all within a very short period of time. And so, I think the efficiency in marketing, by having that data to me is really what's most exciting. And being able to actually accurately talk to our customers is something that really interests me because how many time have you received communications from a company where you're like, "Wait, I was just in there. I just bought X, Y, Z and now they're sending me an offer for something," or the communication just seems out of left field. Rachel: And I think of years past when Starbucks didn't have a fully integrated data solution. If I was a coffee drinker and I always drank coffee once in a while I'd get tea offers and it just didn't make any sense to me. I think it was just bad use of data. Stephanie: Yeah, I still get that right now. I'll get things marketed to me around pregnancy. I'm like, "I am not pregnant and haven't been for a while." Rachel: You're not pregnant. Stephanie: In a while. Come on, about six months ago, stop that. Rachel: Right, exactly. Stephanie: That's smart. So, what are you excited for omni-channel in general outside of Stop & Shop. What do you think that landscape's going to look like in the next couple of years? Rachel: I think that COVID has certainly advanced a lot of, specifically in retail, advanced a lot of retailers. I think their technology and their offerings, I think omni-channel, to me, has to be that seamless experience in-store, online. And it has to be being able to look at you from a customer lens and understanding that you may channel switch and your experience or the offers that you're given or you're customer service shouldn't change. There shouldn't everybody anything remarkably different about whatever channel you're in. Rachel: So, for me I think that the omni-channel landscape is going to continue improving and COVID has definitely advanced that. Stephanie: To dive back into the loyalty program conversation, because I'm very interested in that, we haven't had a ton of people on the show who've talked about that, so I'll probably keep circling around that for a little bit. Rachel: Sure. Stephanie: I want to hear how you think about developing a successful loyalty program now. How do you get people to engage? How do you get them to be excited about it? Rachel: The most important thing is research. You have to understand what customers want first and foremost of course. That's the first step in any real loyalty program whether you're launching a loyalty program or enhancing a loyalty program or just completely transforming a loyalty program. You have to understand what research, what customers want. You have to look at the data and understand what they actually do. Rachel: So, it's the this is what I say I want and then this is what I actually do. And you rally have to be a data scientist and understand what it is that is bubbling to the top. If I know my to customers are coming in and I'm looking at the data that tells me they come in X amount of times per week and they shop for key products, then I can understand and I can translate that back into transactional offers. I can say, "Okay, these are the top products that I need to make sure are relevant to that consumer base on a regular basis." Rachel: But it doesn't get at really what drives them and motivates them to be loyal to the brand. So, I think that that research is such a critical step in really understanding how consumers really feel about your brand. You don't want to be the brand that customers just feel like you're on the corner and you're convenient so they have to shop you. You want to be the brand that they want to shop at. Loyalty isn't just about the program, it has to be about the total solution that retailer provides and your feelings about that retailer. Stephanie: It seems like there would be a lot dark data out there, especially for maybe grocery stores because I'm thinking, would my local grocery store even know that I go in and out because I don't interact with them online right now. I sometimes put my phone number in, sometimes don't. How would you make sure you have a good sample size of people to use for your research when building that out if maybe you still have quite a few of your customers that you don't even know yet. Rachel: No, I think that's a great question. I think you have to ... There are panels that you can go, usually your consumer insights team has access to panels of customers who volunteer to participate in research studies, so that's typically the first place that I go if we don't have enough data within the database. If there's enough data in the database to start with, usually that does require an e-mail address or a physical mailing address and not just phone number. Rachel: So, if your local grocery store only requires phone number and ... I'll say actually that was the case for Stop & Shop prior to the transformation of our new loyalty program where we really just ask for phone number point of sale. And that gave customers access to that two tier pricing. That doesn't do anything for a company, just having phone numbers and actually going to build off your database of course. Then you don't have a way to really round out that customer experience and understand. You got to be able to tap into that customer and ask them what they want. Rachel: It is really important that you're coming up with a program or if you have a program that it's enticing enough that customers want to give their data, they want to give you the right e-mail address or they want to give you the right mailing address so that they do participate in the program but they also are willing to give your opinion when you ask it. Stephanie: Yep. It also seems like making sure you have a seamless experience when asking for that data is really important because I can think of a number of times different stores have been like, "Oh, can you type in your e-mail?" Or just, "Read it off to me and I'll type it in very slowly." I'm like, "Ugh, just don't worry about it," or "I don't want to use your old type pad that's not really working and I'm going to have to delete it 10 times to get it right." Rachel: Right, exactly. Yeah, you're absolutely right it has to be simple, seamless. I think digital cards is a great way to make it simple and seamless. It's easy enough for a POS to scan a digital barcode that ties back to your loyalty card or phone number, provided the fact that the number actually is tied to a valid e-mail address or valid mailing address. Any way that you can provide convenience for consumers to access their program seamlessly, quickly is really important. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. When you're setting this up, even If you don't have access to maybe huge amounts of data, are there any unifying themes that people just generally when it comes to loyalty or rewards programs where you're like, no matter where I've been it seems to always get someone to sign up if we have this or this offering. Rachel: Well, I think a based program, it has to be about savings, right? Every program is at it's core about saving, so hotel, airline, you're earning points to get free something or to save on something. And so, at it's core you have to have a savings in the value proposition. And then I think everything else that goes on top of that whether you have a tiered program where you're providing your top tier customers with more of those experiential benefits or more of those softer benefits is really, it's dependent on the industry and your ability to provide different levels of benefits to customers. Rachel: I think in the supermarket industry you don't see a lot of tiered programs. I think that that's mostly because there's not a lot of experiential benefits that you can provide that consumers really are interested in. I think a lot of customers look at grocery shopping as a chore. There are, there's certainly a core of customers who really enjoy it but for the most part a lot busy consumers today do look at it as a chore and I think that lingering in a store is not something that a lot of people are really interested in. Stephanie: Yep, yeah I completely agree. Is there any research that y'all have done when to what really matters from a savings perspective? What percent actually drives someone to purchase something they maybe wouldn't have purchased prior to seeing that savings? Maybe 5% eh, maybe not, 20% probably so. Anything that you've seen around that? Rachel: It's funny that the higher up you go in savings, a lot of times customers say they don't believe that. When you say save 20% or 25% or whatever, it seems somewhat unbelievable and I think a lot of customers question it. With our go rewards program we actually know that customers saved 15% or more. We did a lot of research because the and more was actually the savings is more like an average of 20% but customers really felt like, "That seems high, that seems really unbelievable." So, 15% we're like okay, let's just actually take that down because that seemed to be more palatable percent for customers for some reason. Stephanie: That's really interesting. Rachel: Isn't it? Stephanie: I know. I mean, when you see these shopping sites when it's like 75% off it actually makes you just one be like, "Well, was it ever worth the price that you listed it at?" And then are you going to get a 90% off. So I do question brands that have huge sales like that more than I do with someone who's consistently like, "You get 15 or 20% off no matter what promo code or coupon or anything that you get, it's never going to be higher than that. Rachel: Right, yeah. You start to question the quality and you say, "Oh, geez." I mean I'm sure the average consumer doesn't think in terms of margin but I start thinking about margin. Stephanie: I do too. Like minds, very like minds. [crosstalk 00:22:05]. "How much were you making before this?" Okay. Rachel: Exactly. Stephanie: That's great. How do you think about metrics when it comes to these loyalty programs. Are they unique and very different than maybe metrics for other e-commerce business or other programs that you might set up? Rachel: Well, I think first and foremost most companies will look at sales as a huge metric within their loyalty program because it's an investment for the organizations, so ROI is going to be important. But the ROI actually comes from retention and in some cases reactivation. You know that a lot of times it's true, the cost of getting a customer is equivalent to retaining eight. Rachel: So, I think if you can look at ... most organizations look at sales from the program and incremental sales from the program. I think that that is the real true metric. Engagement of course is also important. And customer satisfaction is vital. Stephanie: Yep, that makes sense. Are there any memorable campaigns that come to mind. You're like, this one was my favorite marketing or any other kind of campaign hat I've done that you want to share? I'm always interested in stories around that. Rachel: Yeah, no I think that I worked on so many great campaigns but the ones that are truly, fully integrated across every channel is that's what's really exciting. When you see a campaign, for example right now this might sound silly or small but we have this pizza campaign. We've got a commercial on air about the best pizza is your own pizza and we've got that campaign in every other channel, so digital, e-mail, social media, through my go rewards program, we throw in extra points when you buy certain products within the category. That's really what excites me is I think when you see it come to life and you see really the full ecosystem within marketing utilized to support something. That's when you really see the power of marketing come to life and you see how it actually makes sense obviously to have one point of view and to be more customer centric in your campaigns. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And it's like a better way to measure things as well if there's this one initiative going across many channels and you can look at it without having a bunch of other players messing the data up. Rachel: Right, right, exactly, exactly. I see some marketing campaigns right now and [inaudible] there's some big players out there that did all of these back to school campaigns and it drove me nuts because it's like we are not back in and it showed all the kids walking down the hall and of course I know that they had all these commercials shot in the can well before a lot of this happened but I feel like you're talking to a consumer base that is in a very different place right now. I think that obviously understanding what consumers are looking for and really being relevant like that pizza campaign. There's so many people who are at home cooking together right now. I feel like that's really where I get most excited is when I see obviously that relevance and then more of that omni-channel and cross channel campaign. I think that that's really where you see some good results from marketing. Stephanie: Yeah, that's as good point about people still running their commercials that they maybe shot a long time ago. The only one that I think has done really well in my mind that I've seen recently is either Trader Joe's or Target that had grab your back to school supplies and it was at a line rack. I'm like, "That's good, that's relevant and I'm going to get some [inaudible] now." Rachel: That's perfect. Stephanie: Yeah, really good. We had someone on this show who was also mentioning you should have different scenarios, especially at a time right now where you don't really know what's going to happen and you should be ready to pull your campaigns and slot something in really quickly. And it seems like a lot of larger brands or especially older brands just didn't think that way or maybe just thought, "Okay, let's just release this and see how it goes anyways." Why do you think that's the case? Why do they still put this out into the world when many of them probably knew it was not a good fit? Rachel: No, and I think it does more harm to your brand than anything to be honest because obviously if you're not relevant and you're not listening to what's going on in the world then I think that it does more home. At the beginning of COVID we did a lot of work around providing at-home solutions. We had a chef who actually did a cooking show within social media. I worked with this chef to come up with a series of cooking shows within Facebook and we did a number of other just activities to do with the kids at home and there was more relevance to our campaigns and it really resonated. Customers really appreciated the fact that we were giving them content that actually was valuable, interesting and just relevant to what was going on in the world. Rachel: You can't be deaf to what's happening and you have to really just make sure you're always paying attention and listening to what customers are saying. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. Earlier you were talking about the pizza campaign and how you put on many, many channels. Which channels are you finding are most successful or are there any new ones that you're experimenting with that you're finding some early success in. Rachel: I think that we do a lot within social media and I think that the channels in social media that we're finding some early success in would be Next Door and TikTok to some degree. I think with TikTok, youth are still clear we haven't done a whole lot there but I think that the brands that have been on TikTok and have done some really good work and have seen some great results. And I think the social media channels are probably the ones that give me the most excitement because I think there's such a great way. Rachel: We're working towards integrating commerce into social media. That's a big project that my team is working on right now and it's such a great way to capture an audience when they're just in their downtime. They're in a different kind of mindset and they're more open to maybe looking at inspirational content, recipes, things like that within Pinterest or within Facebook or Instagram. And they may want to buy it right then and there and they may want to say, "I want this recipe, I want it delivered to my house. This is great." So, I think that any of the campaigns that we've done in social have really been my favorites. Stephanie: You mentioned integrating commerce into social media. Are you all taking that initiative on yourself or are you more relying on the platforms to develop the solutions to tap into? What does that look like? Rachel: Yeah, we are relying on platforms. Obviously we have to, there's a lot of work that needs to be done still in this area. And I think that's a little trickier just for a supermarket because you're not going to buy just a tomato. Stephanie: [crosstalk] tomato from Stop & Shop. Rachel: Right, it's not like when you see a pair of shoes on Instagram and you have to have them. You don't really have to have that tomato on Instagram but you may want that full recipe so making sure that there's enough content that is actually worthwhile to the customer I think is the challenge and that's what my team is trying to figure out right now. Stephanie: Got it. When I'm thinking about commerce or social media, has Stop & Shop explored ... or maybe you guys already have this like your own products where it's like you can only get it from here. It's not a generic brand it's actually like ... I mean, that reminds me a lot of what Trader Joe's does. It's like if I want this one, well they discontinued this prune juice I really loved. [inaudible 00:32:00], yep. I love their prune juice, they discontinued it. Anyways, I knew that they were the only ones that I liked it, that's the only one I wanted to have. And so, have you explored something like that of creating certain things that will be top of mind where it's like Stop & Shop is the only one that actually has this kind of recipe of whatever it may be, prune juice. Rachel: Yes, actually in fact we have our own line, Nature's Promise is a proprietary line across the Ahold Delhaize brand. And we have our private label brand of course and then we have Taste of Inspirations which is a really nice higher end private label brand for us. And we are definitely doing more within that space, integrating with go rewards with our new program. When you buy a recipe that is all Nature's Promise ingredients you earn extra go points. Rachel: We have these recipes called take five that were featured within social media and we've got them in our circular and in other areas. And if it's all our Taste of Inspiration products you earn X amount of go points. We have a lot of those types of promotions that we're doing now and that's definitely what we'll be integration into our social media commerce platforms in the future. Stephanie: Very cool. And I feel like there's a lot of interesting opportunities too as you now explore ... you're going to have this new e-commerce platform to get new data and to see what people are really like and what's maybe swaying them to buy one thing versus the other. It seems like there's a lot of opportunity that'll come up around building new offerings that maybe you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. Rachel: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think if you look at solutions that's definitely really important to our customers right now. There's so many families that are just so busy and providing meal solutions, even a night, a couple nights or a week of meal solutions is such a huge time savings for a lot of families. Stephanie: Yes, I feel that with three boys now. I'm like anything to not have to cook from scratch would be appreciated. [inaudible] it's frozen, whatever it is. If it's edible it's cool. Where does personalization come into play or you guys? How do you think about showing offerings throughout your e-commerce experience or your apps that really connects with the person who's looking there? Rachel: Well, personalization [inaudible] success, so I think whether or not we get it right 100% of the time I think is something that remains to be seen. I think we have made some huge advances in personalization with the new platform, with our program. The more data we have about a consumer's shopping behavior, what they like, the better the offerings that we'll be able to give them. Rachel: So, if I purchase Doritos all of the time, hopefully I'm not getting a offer for something else, Lays potato chips, I should be getting offers for Doritos. So, that relevancy is really, really important. And that's something with this new program that we're providing customers whether it's through product coupons, which today now that I look in my coupon gallery on my app, I have six products that are relevant to what I purchase every week which is really great, so I know the algorithm is working correctly. Rachel: Then on top of that we also have more of those category offers. So, if I'm somebody that always buys fresh produce now we're actually doing more of the $5 off your purchase when you add a fresh produce. More of those category offers that are relevant to what I purchase every day. I think it's incredibly important. And then through the e-commerce journey this is really where I'd like to see us make some improvements. It's on recommendation engine type of logic, so if I'm putting a pizza dough in my basket on my e-commerce platform then hopefully somebody's going to be recommending some mozzarella and pizza sauce to me. Rachel: That type of a level of personalization is something that we strive for and want in the future. We have some degree of that today but that's certainly where I expect we will be going in the near future. Stephanie: Radical. When it comes to those recommendations are there any tools that you're relying on to build that out or is it everything you did in custom or how is that working behind the scenes? Rachel: Yeah, the recommendation actually is homegrown, so that's where our internal partner actually has been using all of the data from the loyalty program and understanding what customers buy, and there's propensity models that we have in place. So, somebody who has the same profile, who typically purchase X, Y, Z. "We actually build a model to say here are look alike customers and here's what we should recommend to them because it looks like that customer is similar so they may be interested in these types of products." And that's something that our internal data scientists have been able to build out for us. Stephanie: That's great. Is there anything when it comes to machine learning or the world of data that you guys have access to that you're maybe preparing for or different capabilities that you're building out right now that may be other grocers or other e-commerce stores are maybe a little bit behind on? Rachel: Yes, there definitely at the Ahold Delhaize level. I think that AI and certainly machine learning is something that everybody is going to have to be prepared to work on in the near future and be prepared to have teams working on that in the near future. And Ahold Delhaize does. Stop & Shop as a brand doesn't but at the Ahold Delhaize level we do. Stephanie: Very cool. And do they usually come up with something at the higher level and implement it within all of their stores or do they test it out and say, "Okay Stop & Shop you're going to pilot this and we'll learn from you and then we'll have our other brands try it as well," or how does that work? Rachel: That's exactly what it is, yeah exactly. And I see a big trend in experimentation and learning done with artificial intelligence, natural language processing. The first steps into conversational commerce and customer service. I think individually each of those is interesting but when you string it together it becomes really compelling and AI is now being given enough transactional information. And when combined with data science can match and predict customer behavior at a level not previously possible. So, natural language, processing and conversational tools really make it possible to help customers during the purchase journey and even more importantly in many aspects of customer service. Rachel: So, these previously somewhat academic technologies are being put in the hands of digital commerce managers and we begin to see the results. So, I fully expect that within the next couple of years what we're testing at a Ahold Delhaize level will be brought down to each of the brands. Stephanie: Yeah, it seems like there could be an interesting ... that you would get interesting results from the different brands because I can see very different consumers who are maybe shopping at Good old Giant back in Maryland. Rachel: Yes, you're absolutely right. Stephanie: How do you approach that when you're trying out different things and maybe you're like, "Oh, we see this with our customers at Stop & Shop, let's try this at another brand." And you're like womp womp that actually failed at that [inaudible] are so different. Rachel: Yeah, no it's a great call out and I say that all the time. I say what matters to somebody in the food [inaudible 00:40:18], so what matters to somebody maybe in North Carolina is different what matters to somebody in New York City. So, we have probably the toughest competitive market not only from a grocery retail perspective but even just from a media perspective and trying to ensure that our voice is heard within these difficult tough media markets. Rachel: So, for Stop & Shop really it's a little bit tricky and we do have to take a look at every single opportunity that comes our way and say, "Does this resonate with our consumer base?" Because a lot of times it won't. I think that there were a couple of examples of trying out even just a walk-up pickup service. In a city location you can walk to get your groceries handed to you. There've already been shop for you versus the traditional pickup where we load it to your car. That doesn't work everywhere obviously. [inaudible] work in the suburbs, it really only works at urban locations. That's one thing that comes to mind, there's a number of them that come to mind but each brand does have an option to opt out if it's not something that resonates within their base. Stephanie: Yeah, it makes sense. Try and implement that in New York city and all of a sudden these cars are being towed and then they're mad. Rachel: Right. Stephanie: [inaudible 00:41:48]. So, to go a little higher level I want to talk about general e-commerce themes and trends. I wanted to hear what kind of disruptions do you see coming to commerce that are not just from COVID or not just COVID because I think a lot people on here are like, "Oh, COVID's the big disruption." What else do you see happening in the world of e-commerce that's maybe coming down the pipe right now? Rachel: I mean one that's already here really is one stop shopping like Amazon. So, the retailers who adapt and constantly expand their options, shorten the supply chain, enhance customer service and develop great options for delivery and pick-up have the most success. So, I think that the model that Amazon has and Wayfair, the direct to consumer shipping is not as much as a disruption to e-commerce. That's here to stay and I think we have to learn from that and we have to adapt in order to stay competitive. And I think a lot of retailers are going to have to adapt in this new world. Everybody's going to have to be able to figure out how to provide that one stop shop because it's similar to brick & mortar shopping. You don't want to go to multiple locations on a Saturday afternoon. Rachel: It's the same thing, if you're going to pay for shipping you're going to pay for it once from one retailer or get free shipping, of course with a subscription service or promotion. And I think that's definitely here to stay. I think that convenience and the ease of finding everything in one place is that it's that big box retail mentality from back in the 80s when the big box retailers really exploded. Stephanie: Yep. Figuring out delivery and trying to compete with Amazon, man that seems very, very tough. Rachel: Very tough. Stephanie: Consumers have very high expectations now of what they want and yeah, it seems like they are quick to get upset if it's not one, two day shipping and, "Oh, it can't be here within two hours? Okay, I'm going to have to cancel the order." Rachel: Right, exactly. And "Oh, you don't have all the other things I need to? I need my face lotion and my bread. Wait, you don't have that?" Stephanie: Yeah, "Why would you not have that right next to each other?" Rachel: Right, exactly. Stephanie: Yeah, this has been awesome. Is there anything that I missed that you wanted to highlight before we jump into the lightning round? Rachel: No, I don't think so. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Well, I will pull us into the lightning round brought to you by SalesForce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Rachel? Rachel: Oh, boy. Stephanie: All right, first one, what does the best day in the office look like for you? Rachel: Best day in the office today is at home. Stephanie: There you go. What does your virtual best day look like? Rachel: My virtual best day is when I actually have time between meetings to go get something to eat [inaudible 00:45:01]. Stephanie: That is actually a big problem I've heard from a lot of my old coworkers and talking about their whole day is now filled with meetings that maybe would've taken just a couple minutes to have a quick catch up and instead it's like, "Okay, 30 minute slots to discuss maybe one question." Rachel: Absolutely and you use your hour to the fullest extent and you're not moving around from meeting room to meeting room anymore. You're literally just sitting at your desk all day, so my best day is when I actually have a break to get up and go get something to eat because food is important to me. Stephanie: That seems like a crucial part of the day, so what's up next on your Netflix Queue. Rachel: That's a great question. I've actually blown through almost everything. Stephanie: And what was your most recent then? Rachel: I just watched the Enola Holmes. Stephanie: I'm watching that now, it's so cute. Rachel: Oh, it was excellent, I loved it, it was really great. I love Millie Bobby Brown, I think she's fantastic. Stephanie: Yeah, she was really good. Highly recommend that one. What's up next on your travel destinations when you can travel again? Rachel: Oh, gosh I want to go to Scotland so bad. Stephanie: Oh, fun. What do you want to go there for? Rachel: I want to golf. I love the countryside, just looks amazing, beautiful. I want to go hiking there. I have a lot of grand plans for Scotland and Ireland too as well. Stephanie: If you were to have a podcast what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Rachel: It would definitely be about true crime because I'm obsessed with true crime, which I know everybody is right now but I really do find it fascinating and I always have. This isn't just a fab for me, I always really liked it. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You started it, everyone else followed. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I'm a trendsetter of course. Stephanie: Yes. And who would your guest be then? Will it be a serial killer? Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I would love to interview a serial killer. I just want to know what goes on. I want to get deep for sure with a serial killer, name any one. Stephanie: All right, I mean I would listen to that. I hope they're behind bars when that happens. Rachel: Yes, yeah. I could do the interview behind bars for sure. Stephanie: There you go. And if you were to pick a virtual event right now for your team or if you already had one that you've done recently, what would it be that you think is engaging in these times? Rachel: I think there's a women's conference coming up in Boston that I would love for my team to attend. I just attended a women's leadership conference that was really amazing. It was very inspirational, even virtually I was really surprised at how well done it was and how just thought provoking the virtual conference could be. It was really fantastic. Stephanie: That sounds awesome. All right, and then the last one, what is a favorite app on your phone right now that you're loving? Rachel: This is bad but I have the CARROT app, which I don't know if you know, CARROT is the weather app. Stephanie: No, I actually don't. Rachel: It's a weather app that actually gives you a really sarcastic, snarky message every day when you open it up, so ... Stephanie: Oh, my gosh. That's great. I like that, that's really good. Well, Rachel this has been such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Stop & Shop? Rachel: So, Stop&Shop.com Stop & Shop app and me, my LinkedIn profile, so Rachel Stephens, S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S. Stephanie: Awesome, well thanks so much for joining the show. Rachel: Thank you very much for having me.

Why wouldn’t someone like free swag? That’s not a rhetorical question. In fact, Jeremy Parker has been trying to answer that question since he co-founded Swag.com in 2016. Jeremy knew that swag and other promotional items were becoming key marketing tools, and he saw an opportunity to build a business that brought those items straight to the people who needed them. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jeremy takes us behind the scenes of what it was like building Swag.com, including how he went from 3,000 organic site visitors in a month to more than 40,000 organic visitors. The journey to that success was paved with many hiccups, including the difficulty that comes with building an ecommerce platform from scratch, and trying to land their first big-name customer by walking around that company’s campus until they found a buyer.  But today, Swag.com can handle unlimited orders, and that first customer was a little company called Facebook. How did it happen? Learn that and more on this episode.  Main Takeaways: The Snowball Effect — Attracting customers is always easier when you have a proven track record that you can point to. Therefore, it is critical to land key accounts in the early days that can be referenced in future sales conversations. Because when you can point to one successful company that works with you, other companies will follow suit.  What To Know About SEO — Good SEO doesn’t happen by accident. Even though you might have great products and a thriving customer base, organic growth doesn’t happen unless you’re paying attention to your content strategy and making the necessary little tweaks that will bump you up in the search results. If You Build It, They Will Come — When deciding on your product offerings, you have to get inside your customers’ heads and build up an inventory of things that people actually want. Sometimes that means you have to get your hands dirty, do some testing and try things that don’t scale before finally settling on the right blend of offerings. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder of mission.org. Today on the show we have Jeremy Parker, the co-founder and CEO at Swag.com. Jeremy, how's it going? Jeremy: Hey, thanks so much for having me. Stephanie: I'm excited to talk all things swag. You saw my shirt hoodie. I was ready for you this morning. I have everything branded mission. Jeremy: Every everyone needs a little schtickle of swag in their life. Stephanie: I agree. What is the first piece of swag that you remember? Jeremy: Oh, wow. For myself, I've been going to a ridiculous number of trade shows and events over the years. Honestly the earliest swagger member was stuff that I ended up throwing away and that's one that gave me one of the ideas for Swag.com and we wanted to make sure we only offer products that people actually want to keep. That was my main mission from the very beginning. Stephanie: Yeah, same here. I remember getting a bunch of stuff and throwing it away, but I remember being so excited it was back I think in 2010, it was like my first finance conference and I got like a Koozie. I was so excited because it was like the first thing that I'd ever gotten for free maybe and finances a little bit. Sticklers is about giving stuff away for free. And I look back and laugh now because I would go and collect all this stuff and it would ultimately end up being nothing that I really used. Jeremy: 100%. From the very beginning of our business, we were thinking of swag as an amazing marketing tool if it's used right, so obviously that's a big caveat. And when you think of just marketing in general and you have TV commercials and everyone's trained to now fast forward through commercials and you get a magazine, you flip through the ads, or you put your ad blocker on your computer. If you give somebody really high quality swag, they say, “Thank you.” It's really a powerful tool if it's done really right. And it has to be something that people are actually going to want to use. We don't really like to push the flashiest thing or the new hottest thing. It's all about what are people that actually use every day and get those impressions of. Stephanie: Yeah. I love that. Before we dive way too deep into Swag.com, I want to hear a little bit about your background because I see you've done a lot of things in your previous life. And I wanted to kind of hear what your journey was like before founding Swag.com. Jeremy: Sure. I was a documentary filmmaker actually in college, that's why I went to school for. I actually never wanted to be a filmmaker when I went to Boston University. And I looked at the curriculum and I really wanted it to be in high school my whole … Before college life I always wanted to be a marketing guy. I was always into branding and commercials and how to tell stories through marketing. When I went to school and I looked at the syllabus of film and marketing, they really were the exact same thing, except for film taught me how to make videos. And this is right at the onset of like YouTube. I thought that would become valuable. I became like probably the first filmmaker at BU history that never actually wanted to be a filmmaker. Jeremy: But as I was in school for those four years, I ended up making a feature length documentary that ended up winning the audience award at the Vail Film Festival. And I was [inaudible] and I walked down and the brunch the next day after the award ceremony and half the room are these major celebrities and half the room are these struggling filmmakers. And I did kind of an internal gut check of, am I good enough? Is this what I want to do with my life? And it wasn't, so right after I won this award, when people primarily feel like on a high, they're like, “Oh, I'm going to become the biggest filmmaker,” my thought was, “What else am I going to do? What's my plan? What's really my plan? What am I good at?” Jeremy: And when I graduated college, I didn't know what I was good at. I had no real experience in business or anything, but I thought maybe I should start something and just learn what I'm good at, what I enjoyed. I started a t-shirt company right out of college when I was 21, 22. And really I thought t-shirt sounds so simple, but really you're learning manufacturing, PR, marketing, building an Ecommerce experience, all the different aspects of business, fulfillment, all these different things. And I tried to figure out what I was really good at. Jeremy: And over the last 10 years, I've done a lot of different things. I started the company with my brother and Jesse Itzler. Jesse is the co-founder of Marquis Jet, private jet company. He sold ZICO Coconut Water to Coca-Cola. He's one of the owners of Atlanta Hawks. I started a company with him where we partnered up with different celebrity influencers and we owned their celebrity rights to Twitter and Facebook feeds before people knew how valuable it was. This was nine years ago or so. Jeremy: So [inaudible] a lot of celebrities, buying their rights. That company ultimately got bought by a publicly traded company. I then went on to start a social networking app that ultimately failed. Never start a social networking app, I'll tell you that. Extremely difficult. Stephanie: Semi-hard. Jeremy: Yeah, it's semi-hard to do. And we built an app called Vouch. That basically was about like Oprah's favorite things democratize for everybody. You could vouch for your favorite movie and book and charity and anything you'd want to vouch for and people who follow you really get to know what you like. Really kind of making the like button with its own platform. We ended up having 100,000 plus users. We had tons of influences. It just never materialized. And after doing that for three years, I realized that the next business I want to start, it needs to be something where we made money from day one, I could give a service and a product and I started Swag.com. Jeremy: So, it's been almost five years at this point with Swag. We were just named the 218 fastest growing company on the Inc. 5000. We have 5,000 companies from Facebook, Google, Amazon, Netflix, TikTok, Spotify buying on our site and we spent a really big portion of that building is automated experience for purchasing swag. And now it's about, now how do you handle the distribution of swag? It's more than just making it easy to buy. How do you get into the hands of people? And especially now with this pandemic, that's really the most important thing. Stephanie: Yeah, I was just going to touch on that. I know everyone's probably wondering with everything going on, where conferences are being obviously canceled and not coming back for a while. How are you guys handling that? Because I'm that the swag industry right now is down overall. What are you guys doing right now to not be part of that downward spiral? Jeremy: Yeah, that's a 100% true. They just came up with numbers. ASI, which is like the big organization for promotional products, just came out to number that over 92% of companies in our industry are down approximately 50% in Q2 this year versus last year. So, it's really bad. And then obviously it makes sense on the surface where you have our core buyer was like the HR manager buying for onboarding of new hires. That was one of our big purchases and no one's hiring right now. That business goes away. And then you have the marketing teams buying for trade shows and there's no trade shows happening, so that business goes away. Jeremy: Then you have the office manager buying for internal office and company culture, and no one's in the office right now. You have all these different buyers that really are not buying swag for the normal, the typical reasons to buy swag. So like everyone in our industry, we were very nervous like what's going to happen. And what we've been able to do is take this platform, our swag distribution platform, which is what we're really pushing and what we're really excited about. We'd been building this really amazing platform over the last two years, specifically for marketing managers. That was the initial idea of it. Allowing marketing managers to easily be able to buy swag and then send swag to the remote customers or to best leads to close sales. Jeremy: That was their initial intention. But obviously with this pandemic and everyone's working remotely, it's transitioned to office managers and HR managers really buying swag in bulk and sending it to the remote employees addresses to keep the company culture thriving, even when no one's in the office, so much so that not only are we not one of the 92%, that's downloading over 50% our Q2 this year was more than our Q2 of last year and July was almost double our last year July. And it was our best month ever and August is even better than that. We're really growing frankly in a crazy time for everyone. Stephanie: That's amazing. Now, I'm thinking about it. I ordered swag for our team maybe two years ago and the process, it was crazy. It was so much back and forth of like, “Here's your quote. Oh, you want to more of this? Okay. Here's your new quote? Here's what the design might look like.” It was just a lot. And then of course the big box came to me and then I had to maybe ship things out individually or wait until I saw people in-person if I was being a little cheap. What does it look like now I'm thinking about reordering hoodies and shirts for our team members? But of course I would have to individually maybe shift them out again or are you guys different? What is your process look like that's so different than others? Jeremy: Really simple. On our site, we have very curated selection of products. You're not going to be overwhelmed with too many options. Say the top 25 mugs, you find a mug you could use our filtering tools, really easy to search by color or price point or your type of brands. You find the product you upload your logo. Our system will detect how many colors are in your logo, in the nearest Pantone match. We're making sure we're printing, Coca-Cola red and not Staples red. Once the logo is uploaded, you can maneuver the rounds, you can mark everything up. You select on your quantity price adjuster in real time and checkout. It literally takes less than three minutes to buy swag. There's no back and forth. You can also use our instant quote tool, if you wanted to quote things out before you want to go through the design process on our site, you can upload your different variables, the quantity that you're looking for, how many print locations, the number of colors in the print. It takes two seconds and you're coordinating things out. Jeremy: So, there's no back and forth emails, there's no phone calls, there's no presentation decks. It's none of it. It's really completely automated streamlined. And then when you're going through the checkout flow, obviously you can input your own address, so we'll ship everything to your office. Or if you want us to handle all the distribution for you, there's a pink button on that shipping page that says, one is to hold your swag and inventory easily distributed, [inaudible 00:09:29]. You click on the button, you follow the onboarding and then we hold all of your swag in this online Swag closet if you will, where you can manage all of your inventory in real time. If you're ever running low in stock, we'll send you smart notifications to restock. If you want to send 1,000 different locations, you upload a CSV file we'll calculate the shipping costs in real time, based on the product you selected, where they're going. Jeremy: Once you pay for that, we grab those products off the shelf and we're shipping it all over the world for you. We really streamlined the entire experience. We take it a step further if you wanted it, some companies want this, some companies don't, but we have a whole ability to create different inventory closets for location or for a department. You can have a marketing closet versus a sales closet, versus your London office or New York office. Different people should get access to it. There's different permission settings, approval flows, et cetera. You could really break it down by department, by location and we're doing this with a lot of global main companies all over the world. Also, a lot of small startups who just want to use our service as a way to distribute swag. Stephanie: I was looking through your site and I saw products there that I haven't seen in other swag companies. And I wanted to talk a little bit about how you guys go about picking your products because all of them seemed high quality where oftentimes, I'll go through it and I'll find 50 different shirts on a custom t-shirt company website. And I'm like, “Oh my gosh, actually let me look through all the reviews. Let me see if they're good. Okay. 95% of them are all bad. They all have bad reviews, bad fits, whatever.” How do you go about making sure that you only have high quality stuff there that people will actually want? Jeremy: That's a great question. And that was the challenge. And it's an ongoing challenge, always. From the very beginning, me and my co-founder, each invested $25,000 of our own money. That was our first startup budget. What be used primarily for that was buying samples. We went out and we went to different trade, shows all over the country and we bought samples from tons of different suppliers. And we saw exactly what customers typically see when they buy from sites. A lot of this stuff was really poor quality, would end up in the trash and we would never feel comfortable selling it. We were really kind of laser focused on only offering a curated selection of products that we would actually want to keep ourselves. It's a lot of testing, it's constant testing. Jeremy: How we kind of look at the whole process is we want to have the best of what's out there. It could be the relatively inexpensive, or it could be premium. It doesn't really matter we have to have stuff in all price points. We don't want it to be known as the premium quality supplier. We want to be known as the quality supplier. We have a lot of products there high-end brands, Public Rec, Rowan, Top Wood Designs, Patagonia, different products like that. We also have no name products that you had never heard of, but they're really, really quality. We have a product sourcing team that's constantly contacting a lot of direct to consumer type of products and brands that are not traditionally found in the promotional product space and going after them as well, because we want to be known as the company that has products that no other company in our space offers. Jeremy: What we've been seeing is that a lot of companies that are okay featuring their stuff on our site or are happy to feature their stuff on our site like Bellroy Backpacks, they've never done it in other promotional product sites because the other sites, feel schlocky or throw away or cheap in some way. And we are really, really not that. We're really trying to focus on quality products, stuff that people would be proud to show off, stuff that when you get it, you're going to want to wear it every single day because that's really the only real reason why Swag is a true benefit is that people actually want to use it. Stephanie: Yeah. So, now that you can't go to trade shows and try things out, and are you still going through that process when it comes to finding new products, like just ordering things that you think are great and trying them out, or is it different than what it used to be? Jeremy: No, it's exactly that. It's less expensive in some ways and more expensive in other ways. We want to make sure we have the right products that we're constantly spending a ton on samples. And now at this point in the business also, we're almost five years in and we're somewhat known in our industry. We're the fastest growing company in the promotional product space. A lot of different, great suppliers and direct to consumer brands have heard of us, so they're willing to send us free samples. We don't necessarily have to pay for it anymore. But we're just constantly sourcing more products and taking some products that maybe were cool last year, but we don't think they're going to be good this year and replacing it with new stuff. Jeremy: We don't want to keep just adding and adding and adding because it then makes it very complicated for customers to make a decision. So, we're constantly, always looking at our site and saying, “Is this the right blend and mix of products?” And we're always never happy. We're always constantly trying to improve it. Stephanie: Very cool. I'm guessing there's also a bit of like a data element where you can probably look into the data and see what people are either enjoying. Do you do reviews? Do you use customer feedback to also influence the products that you choose? Jeremy: Yeah. 100%, yeah. After everyone places an order, we always have a survey that automatically goes on the time of delivery, very basic. It's like one question like, “How satisfied were you?” So we can get our ranking and see how people like the products and how they turned out. If we ever get any sort of bad or not 100% amazing feedback about a product, we'll look into it and maybe there's something wrong, maybe the print quality wasn't great for that order or maybe the product itself wasn't as great as what we thought and we'll just remove from our site. We're constantly listening to our customers, understanding do we have the right products at all times? Because that's very important for us. We need to have that. Jeremy: We're constantly testing more and more products. And obviously we're learning what people are adding to their cart. How many products are being … What products together go? We sometimes find that if somebody buys a tote bag, they're going to buy other products that could fit into that tote, like smaller products. Or if they buy a backpack, other types of products are usually bought with backpacks. We're constantly looking at data and trying to make sure we have the right mix of products that go with each other, so we can start positioning certain products. When you buy a backpack, the products that are featured as you might also like actually make sense. So, not just what we think, but what the data is telling us. Stephanie: I love that. Along with maybe getting personalized recommendations, depending on the product they chose, are you also personalizing the experience based on maybe what company is looking around? If a LinkedIn's looking versus Google, maybe you know that Google always buys hoodies where LinkedIn buys coffee mugs. I don't know. Are you personalizing it based on who's actually browsing? Jeremy: At this point, we're not. And we've been constantly thinking about that. The challenge is that there's so many different buyers within companies. Even if we worked, let's say with LinkedIn, which we do or Google, which we do, there's so many different divisions within Google that are completely different. We're selling to the HR team or the marketing team or the sales team or office manager, or just somebody who's buying it for their local team. Everyone's looking for different things. We've done for Google complete stuff, obviously the normal stuff of notebooks and t-shirts and sweatshirts, backpacks and water bottles. But we've also done custom Allbirds Sneakers. It's hard to kind of match up always and all the buyers are necessarily not always the same. Jeremy: So, it's constantly changing, but as we're growing as our processes and we're able to handle a lot more orders and we're analyzing more data, I think that will be a shift in the future of really making the experience as personal as possible and that might be not making it personal at all based on companies or that might be going the opposite way and making it super, super personal. We're kind of learning what's the right mix at this point. Stephanie: So, to talk a little bit about maybe the backend, the tech stack, it seems like there's a lot going on behind the scenes. I first wanted to start with, I saw that you were quoted saying the platform's able to handle unlimited orders in a day. And I was wondering, is that because you guys are leveraging cloud infrastructure or have you built some kind of scaling methodology? What does that look like behind the scenes to allow you to have unlimited orders? Jeremy: Yes. We do work with AWS, which for the cloud obviously makes things a little bit easier, but our entire platform is fully custom. Every single aspect of our site is custom. We're not using any other services. Obviously we're using like Intercom live chat. We're not going to be building our own chat, but the entire platform itself and all of our pricing is very complicated. That's why there's not a lot of companies in the space that could do what we do because it's fully dynamic. Every price tasting consideration, the quantity that you're looking to buy, how many print locations, the number of colors in the print, all these different variables that have to be in play. And now if we have 3,000 products on our site and 200 core products, they all have different pricing structures, they all have different under base charges, they all have different kinds of printing methods from screen printing, embroidery, laser engraving, all of these come with different complications. Jeremy: So, we really had to build our site from this place from the very beginning we couldn't just take an out of the box solution. And frankly I would have loved to take an Ad Box solution for this because it's been taking me five years to build [inaudible] building. We have a 15-person tech team and we're growing, we keep developing more and more and more because it's important. And we want to always stay one step ahead. At this point, like yesterday we did north of a 100,000 in sales all through our Ecommerce site. Things we could really scale and that same day. The day before we did 50,000 in sales and then hopefully today we do more than a 100,000 sales. Every day could literally be completely different and it's completely the same automation. Somebody could buy 5,000 notebooks or they could buy 50 notebooks or 15 notebooks or 20,000 notebooks. And it takes the same processing ability, same exact time for checkout. Stephanie: Very cool. Yeah, that's great. When you're thinking about back in the day, starting out with a custom website versus maybe pulling something like using a platform that is already out there, how did you go about deciding that you wanted something custom and then what did that process look like? What were some of maybe the mishaps or failures along the way where you're like, “Oh, if you guys are trying to build something custom make sure you don't do this or that you avoid this.” What kind of learnings did you get from doing a custom? Jeremy: Actually the truth of the matter was in the very beginning of the business, we went all in on Shopify. And we went all in say, “You know what? Why are we building our own Ecommerce experience when somebody else could do it significantly better than us or is worked through all the kinks?” The challenges, when we start to really build a Shopify, we realize how complicated our specific industry is in terms of pricing. And there's no really easy way. There's no Ad Box solution that could really do it. We spent literally two and a half months building the Shopify store only to then realize, which was a big mistake on our part, that the pricing was not able to be done. Jeremy: We had to really scrap it and start from scratch. And we realized it's going to take us a lot longer to get where we want to be, but we're still not where we want to be, but it makes the most sense. It's really the only way to streamline it as much as we want to streamline it. Now, the typical process of promotional products, as you mentioned before, it's a lot about phone calls. It's back and forth, this quote versus that quote. You change one little element, the whole quote changes. We didn't want to deal with that. We wanted customers to be able to do it themselves, no talking to anybody. If you don't want it, obviously if you want to call us, we love to hear from you, but you don't have to. You could do every single thing yourself and we want it to make that effortless. Jeremy: You want to hold things in inventory, click on the button and now it's all in inventory. You want to distribute swag, upload this and it ships out. Every single thing on our site, we wanted to make it as easy as possible and historically, and traditionally it's not been easy at all. And it makes sense because of how custom the product offering is. Stephanie: If you would have, maybe on day one started out with like, here's the kind of things that we're most interested in. Did you know that you wanted this custom pricing option and did you go and kind of look at different platforms to see if they could do that? Or did you just jump right in? Jeremy: Yeah. From the very beginning, honestly, we spent a year before we built any platform. Our initial idea was we don't really know the platform to build, we knew that the industry needed to be shaken up a little bit. We knew how old and fragmented the industry was, but frankly, I think most entrepreneurs could agree. You honestly know what the right answer is. Most people don't, they think they do, they don't. From the very beginning, our idea was let's just learn as much as possible. Let's reach out to as many office managers, HR managers, people that we know within industries by swag. And let's ask them what they like and hate about the current buying experience that they're having. And we would show up at meetings and we would literally say, “What sites you buy from?” And they would give us some site names and we would look over their shoulder really. Jeremy: This is what we did for the first year. We spoke to over 200 different office managers, HR-related buyers. And some ended up buying became customers of ours for many years and some moved on to other things, but just to see how they purchase swag was a big tell for us, really what the process was. Looking at their email back and forth 40, 50 emails with a rep just didn't make any sense to us. We kept kind of thinking. That was kind of the first six months of our business. The second six months of our business, the remainder of the year was about, “Well, let's do it the old school way. Let's just launch a landing page. Let's go out there. Let's be a traveling salesman and try to sell some stuff.” And we really learned how painful it is. It's like it takes forever to quote, there's a lot of manual labor. Jeremy: Every single thing that was painful for us, we then figured out a solution to automate it. And we kept just chipping away at it. Stephanie: That's so important. I think it's Paul Graham who said do things that don't scale. And that's how you actually learn, like what's working, what's not working and what to build going forward. That's really smart. Jeremy: Exactly right. And that's the same thing with even getting our customers. Now, I haven't made a sales call in four years, but in the beginning I was doing everything. Me and that co-founder, Josh, we would show up at offices and try to sell. And we sold to Facebook as one of our first customers. First customer, really actually. We had a friend who worked at Facebook, got us in the door. We ended up walking around Facebook's office in New York just speaking to whoever we could to see somebody who would buy swag. Ultimately ended up selling them a couple of t-shirts, like 100 or 200 t-shirts. We barely broke even on it. I think we made like 5% margin, like barely anything, but didn't matter to us. It was just about getting that Facebook logo. I remember two days later we showed up at WeWork in New York and WeWork asked us who else we work with? And we said Facebook. Jeremy: They assumed we probably had thousands of others because we had Swag.com brand and Facebook, but really it was just Facebook. And we got, WeWork and we continued that cycle to get that really five core blue chip companies. It was doing the really unscalable things like showing up, showing the products in-person, making the sale, really learning the process as much as possible, and then automating the experience and making that whole buying experience effortless. Now, people don't need to speak to anyone if you don't want to, that's really what our main goal was. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah. I think we've had a couple people on the show. Who've talked about just finding that first customer that you can kind of leverage as the brand name and then just pointing to them and be like, “Yeah, they work with us. Like you should too.” So I think that's a good lesson for a lot of companies starting up. If you find that one brand name and you can reference them, it'll probably help with all future sales. Jeremy: 100%. It's all about social proof, at least what we have learned, it's everything. People are not going to work with you if they don't feel confident. To build up the confidence, obviously you have to have a great platform, but that doesn't happen overnight. That takes time. You have to have a great brand and a great design, make people feel confident, but other ways are who else you've worked with? A lot of our shirts and what's big reason why we've been able to scale with very little money is a lot of our t-shirts and apparel has a Swag.com in your label. We do our own products. Jeremy: When people [inaudible] t-shirts that's 5,000 people knowing about Swag.com. They see the t-shirts, they see the quality, they feel how great it is, they see the print, they have the instant social proof that Facebook uses them or Google uses them, whoever is getting the product and they see Swag.com and it drives a ton of traffic to us. That only really works if the products are great as well. Obviously people are getting really poor quality and everything's says, “Swag.com,” no one will use us. It'd be opposite [inaudible 00:25:52]. Every single thing really has to work hand-to-hand Stephanie: Yeah, that's a really. Jeremy: Yeah. We were thinking about it initially because I wear jeans a lot. I was thinking like I buy one pair of jeans for like three years. It's kind of looks cooler, the more you wear jeans, it gets more faded. But with Swag.com or swag in general, people buy stuff for a specific reason. You're buying it to give it away and then you need more stuff. If they're buying it to give it away, we have to make the experience of giving away products that other people actually want and see. And then that new person, that person who just bought that 5,000 t-shirts now they need more stuff for the next event. It's a completely different kind of business. And we just try to figure out, we have to make sure that our logo is everywhere that it can be, obviously within reason. Stephanie: I love that. Let's talk a little bit about the backend when it comes to warehousing your inventory. How does it work behind the scenes? If you're able to allow someone to essentially have their cart saved and then say, “Okay, ship this to one person in California and then ship this to one person in Florida.” What does the backend look like to make those logistics work? Jeremy: Yeah. Upfront in terms of the actual buying swag and bulk, we have integrations with different kind of the best vendors in each industry. So, like the best one for drink wear, best one water bottles and obviously we have a big selection of product. When somebody buys 1,000 mugs or something on our site, it's automatically connects to our supplier network that produces the highest quality mug with their logo and then drop ships it directly to the customer's office or wherever. But if they're holding stuff in inventory, it ships into our 3PL. We have four strategic locations all throughout the US and we're adding more locations in Canada and Europe right now to make it cheaper for global distribution. Once the products are in our fulfillment center, then they log into the, my inventory portal and they see all of their inventory in real time. Jeremy: So, if you're ever running low in stock, we'll send you smart notifications to restock. They can easily upload their CSV file. We'll calculate the shipping costs in real time. They pay for it. We grab it off the shelves and we're shipping it to 1,000 different locations. We also have this feature called the Swag Giveaway. Oftentimes, especially now, people don't necessarily know where their remote employees are living. Say you went to a trade show. God willing the world opens up, we have trade shows again, and people go to your booth and they give you their email address. You'll know what t-shirt size they are. You'll know where they live, but you still might want to engage with them. We built the Swag Giveaway feature, where you can create a fully recipient branded landing page. Let's imagine Google just uploads their logo and their colors. Jeremy: And they could easily blast out to a CSV file of just having the person's first name and email, that recipient will click on the link. It will be branded with Google, they'll select their t-shirt size or they'll select their mug, or water bottle, they'll be able to choose which product they want. Input their address, submit. It all speaks to our system. And now we have the address that we can distribute. We're building all of these tools to allow people to distribute if they're shipping to one address, thousands of addresses, or even if they don't have the recipients addresses, but easy way to capture that and also distribute. Stephanie: Wow, that's a lot going on behind the scenes. Jeremy: Yeah. Stephanie: How are you thinking about the front end part of the website because to me when you're ordering swag or something where you really want to see the details of like, is that embroidery right, are the colors right and also just like making sure that you have people who are converting and not just sitting on maybe their design or their shopping cart? How are you moving people along through the website and what kind of best practices have you seen when setting up the front end user interface? Jeremy: Good question. It's probably the most challenging thing for our business because it is custom and everyone is somewhat concerned about, is this going to come out perfect, is it could be the right logo color, is it going to be the right positioning. What we've learned is obviously we built our patent technologies is one of the first things we built to detect the number of colors and the nearest panto match in your logo when you're uploading it. So, to make people feel really safe, they're going to get their exact color. Now, obviously it can never be 100% because web colors are not the same as Pantone colors that are used for printing and t-shirts, but it really gets to the closest match. And if you want, and if you know your Pantone, which a lot of companies do, it allows them to easily input their exact Pantone, so it overrides everything and it makes it really easy. Jeremy: Obviously they can maneuver their logo, they can mock it up. And what we say is, after you place your order, we're always going to create for them a virtual production mock-up to approve before we ever start to print. We'll never go into production until they give us the green light. Really customers should feel super safe that even if they upload their logo and they're not sure is this straight or is this exactly the right position. It doesn't really matter. We're always going to create that mock-up and they can make as many revisions as they want before we start with the print. That makes it really easy. And in terms of our distribution, obviously they can always just add this stuff to inventory and just easily distribute. The process on the front end, we try to make it really effortless and streamlined. Jeremy: It's taken us four years. We're constantly adding more and more features to make that experience better. We're launching a feature very soon called the Company Art Folder. Imagine you bought something and 20 other people in your company buys different things. It should lump all of your artwork together as a company art folder, so you never have to really hunt down the designer to make sure you have the right file or is this the right logo, is this the approved logo for swag? You can always, when you're uploading your logos, select the pre-approved designs that have been used and purchased by other people in your company, so you feel more safe. Or unlike my orders page, let's say Jennifer on your team is out sick one day, you can log into your account, you'll see all of your orders and then there's another tab that says company orders. You see everyone else in your company what they purchased, so you could easily reorder what somebody else ordered and easily subtract and make sure you're using the exact same artwork. Jeremy: We're trying to build this platform as effortless on the front end to make it really, really streamlined. And in terms of getting people through the funnel, what we've seen is our platform really does work well. I think that the more simple features that really solve a problem. And as you mentioned before, Paul said, “Do things unscalable before you scale it.” Every single thing we do, it has to be super painful for us, for us to spend time developing a solution for it. Once it's overwhelmingly painful, then we build the solution to make it easy. Jeremy: Then obviously we see their abandoned carts. We can track everyone's abandoned carts. And then we have our SDRs calling all these abandoned carts within like 10 minutes of the time that they'd been in to make sure that there's no experience that's wrong. Sometimes people say, “The shipping is too high.” Or, “It doesn't seem I can get in my in hand date.” There's certain things that we could actually help out and maneuver possible. And if it's not possible, we'll let the customer know it's not possible. But getting in front of them right when they're thinking about, are they going to purchase or not and they might have issues, that's really, I think we found the most important thing for us. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really smart. Have you seen people pick up their phone right away or have you experimented with texting instead? Jeremy: We haven't done texting and I've been researching some companies and I think it's actually a really good idea. We've seen a lot of people if they're actively looking on our site or they've just left in 10 minutes, they're likely to pick up their phone. Even when people fill out a form on our site and we have a lot of … Obviously our core business up until this point was Ecommerce experience adding it to distribution, but we have a whole ‘nother business where people could buy swag boxes in bulk, giving a really great unboxing experience for new hires or engaging with your best clients. That's fully custom branded boxes inside the boxes, as custom notebook and water bottle and pen and custom note card, crinkle paper. We've allowed people to custom build those boxes effortlessly through our site. Jeremy: All you have to do is upload your logo, the same process as buying and adding to your cart, you click on the button that says, “Build a box,” and it lumps, all those products together as a box listing. It makes the entire experience super simple. And we've seen with those bigger box orders. A lot of times it might be like a two to three week sales cycle. When Ecommerce could be like they land on a site and they check out that same day, boxes, they're fairly larger sizes. Typically, they're usually using our distribution platform for distributing because no one has room in their office for boxes or wants to boxing up themselves. So, they actively use our distribution platform for that. And that cycle takes a little longer. Getting on the phone with them, really talking through the challenges or what their issues are and what their questions are, we find is really, really important. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really great. Oftentimes when you're talking or this can happen, when you're talking to a customer, they don't always tell you exactly what they need. One example you gave there was, you want to be able to go into a library where your logos are there, which is huge. I remember ordering swag back in the day at other companies and it was always kind of a review and escalation process of like, “Is this the most recent logo? Are these the right colors? Is this our team logo?” Okay. How would you find out something like that that maybe a customer wouldn't know to tell you, but it would just make it easier if they did have that there? How do you go about getting in your customer's head? Jeremy: Yeah. I think it's just like just being their teammate. We like to think of in all of our customer success likes to think of it, is that we're an extension of your brand. Obviously if you're buying swag on our site, it has to really be the quality, but it's only going to be quality and only what you like, if the logo is right, the positioning is right, it's exactly what you want. Especially dealing with bigger orders, we like to jump on a call with customers, have a conversation, try to understand what the use case for their swag is, what their budget is, what their timeline is who the audience is. And we like to suggest ideas and obviously customers can go on the site and not talk to us if they want to talk to us and use our filtering tools and our search tools and just our browsable experience and find what they want. Jeremy: But if they want our help, we want to be there to help them. I think it's just constantly trying to understand, the reason for them buying swag and with the use cases. And then we constantly offer different suggested items that we know that we work with that other companies in the similar space have worked with. And we give other solutions for them to kind of play with. And I think it just gives a great experience where they could do their own kind of sourcing and they can also use us as a guiding tool to find them exactly what they're looking for. Stephanie: When you're thinking about getting new customers, what kind of acquisition channels are you using or finding success in right now to get these large companies using you guys? Jeremy: Yeah. I like to think about marketing and it's not always going to be the same traction channel is always going to work. Now, from the very beginning, we were doing a lot more Google ads because we wanted to get paid back fairly quickly and we've realized early on, at least for our business prospecting on Facebook is a little more challenging when you're dealing with B2B buyers. But for Google, when is looking specifically for swag it's quite challenging [inaudible] Google, obviously it's very expensive. In the beginning it maybe makes sense to do Google just to get those early wins and get the credibility. But then maybe you kind of shift away from Google and you do some more SEO. SEO for us has been tremendously successful. We started really diving deep into SEO about 18 months ago, just to put things in perspective. Jeremy: Last January, we had about 3,000 organic visitors to our site, in 2019 January. January of 2020, we had North of 20,000 organic visitors. And last month we had nearly 40,000 organic visitors. Really growing the base in terms of organic, putting out tons of content, always it's content that maybe has stuff to do with swag buyer like buying swag or maybe just has to do with the audience, HR managers, the best HR solution tools. Doesn't necessarily have to be about swag, but it's a valid topic related to the buyer. And then ultimately when the buyer comes on our site, reads about it and then is going to Facebook or Google or any of their other properties, we can re-target them. That's been a really great driving force for us, but also partnerships. Jeremy: There's a lot of different companies in our space that don't necessarily sell swag. They sell other products to the office manager or other products to the HR manager, that we could really parlay and work on. We could promote them to our audience. They could promote us to their audience. We've been trying a lot of different things, affiliate marketing, a lot of different stuff, but usually it's always the one or two kind of traction channels that are the most beneficial at that time. And right now it's SEO [inaudible] hands down has been the best driver of customers for us. Stephanie: Okay. I want to dive into that a bit then, because I hear people are always talking about SEO. There's so many SEO agency, they'll do all this SEO stuff for you. I think there's like tons of bar jokes, maybe not bar jokes. Maybe just be regular jokes about SEO agencies and consultants and stuff. I want to dive into, what are you guys actually doing when it comes to your SEO strategy because it sounds like it's been successful? How are you finding out what topics to write about? What are you seeing work? Give me all the nitty-gritty on what you all are doing behind the scenes. Jeremy: Yeah. I think from the very beginning with SEO, it was about making our site compatible and making it work for Google traffic. Our site, at the very beginning … I'm a branding person. My background is in branding and user experience design for the customer. There's a lot of things that are behind the scenes that Google looks at, that the customers don't even realize. And frankly, it doesn't even mean anything to the customers. I had to learn that. I didn't know anything about that. Frankly, I'm fairly new to SEO. We started really 18 months ago and I realized our organic rankings should be a lot higher based on our brand, based on these experience. We're getting a quality product out there and it should be getting a lot more traffic. The first step was just analyzing our site and realizing, “Well, how do I make the site faster?” Jeremy: Or, “How do I make the site make more sense in terms of Google?” So for example, on every single product page, 18 months ago, we had no other associated products below the fold. Now, most people don't necessarily look at those below the product the fold because they're trying to upload their logo, mock-up things. There's a lot of stuff for them to do on the product builder page to add to cart. But you need to add those other products below the fold, so that in terms of Google, they see that that product listing is connected to four other products or so, right. There's all these small kind of tweaks or theoretically, you want to keep adding and making your site feel refreshed. You're not going to be refreshing your homepage every single two weeks. It doesn't happen. Jeremy: You're not going to be redesigning your product builder page every two weeks or your browsable experience every two weeks. What you can do, is you can maybe put like a blog post in your footer, make it like the latest blog posts. Every time you update your blog, every day or every two days, your site is getting refresh constantly. There's all these kinds of small kind of tweak things that you could do in terms of overall site. And then it's about kind of pinpointing the content that you really want to go after and saying, “Well, who is our buyer?” So, really understanding who your customer is and trying to write really good content, not just like throw away stuff, really good content with great subject lines that get people to read something and learn something, get real value out of it that might not be about swag related, but has to do with swag adjacent, if you will. Jeremy: If someone's looking for office holiday party ideas. They might not be looking for swag, but maybe we could get swag in there somehow. Or best ways to engage your remote employees or something like that. Or what healthy snack food to have in the office, literally has nothing to do with swag, but the person who is looking for that is ultimately going to be looking for swag. And we don't necessarily need to convert them today, at this point, we could convert them a month from now. When they are looking for swag, just be on the top of mind, re-target them and ultimately convert them. Just putting out consistency. I think in general, whether it's SEO or whether it's being a startup founder or whether it's anything you do in life, I think it's just really all about consistency and just trying to have more good days than bad days. Jeremy: Constantly just trying to keep pushing as hard as you can because at the end of the day, you're going to get to a much better place if you're consistent with it, you keep pushing forward and no small setbacks really affect you. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. Are you all doing the content creation and things like that in-house still? Or have you hired that out? At what point would you say like, “Oh, it's about time to hire this out,” to have someone else work on it instead of maybe an entrepreneur doing it all themselves? Jeremy: So, initially it was all me writing the content, then it became use some freelancers and now it's becoming, now we have the resources we're hiring actually this week, a full-time writer for our own team to be writing content and doing all of the stuff that we want to do. I think in everything, it always starts with the founders. Me and my co-founder, I think we've done really ridiculous, crazy things over the last four years to get to where we are. We've driven u-hauls 11 hours making deliveries at 11 o'clock at night. Having my family and my grandma, my aunts and uncles rolling t-shirts for three days straight trying to win these big deals and having no resources to do it. You're always kind of founder, CEO and head intern all at the same time. Now, at this point we're able to hire some of those roles that doesn't really make sense for us to be doing at this point or frankly, people who are just a lot better at it than we are. And that's where we're really excited to get to. Stephanie: I love that. I'm sure your grandma thanks you. Poor grandma, she's a real VIP over there, rolling t-shirts. Jeremy: Yeah. She was making fun that she hurt her back and that's why her back is messed up because of the [inaudible 00:43:33]. Stephanie: All because of you, Jeremy. Jeez. That's great. Before we move into a lightning round, is there anything that you wanted to cover today that I missed? Jeremy: No, no, this has been great. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Yeah, it has been a blast. All right. So, let's move onto the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to throw a question your way and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Jeremy? Jeremy: I'm ready for it. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Jeremy: Oh, cool. I started watching … I was in the Hamptons this weekend. Stephanie: Fancy. Jeremy: I know, very fancy. My mother-in-law's in town and she wanted to go out. [inaudible] and there's all these ads all over the place for million dollar beach house or something. I think I started watching some real estate show. Stephanie: There you go. I saw that also on Netflix. I was watching Selling Sunset, though I need to finish that one first. Jeremy: That's fine. Stephanie: All right. What is the best promotional item you've ever received? And what's the worst one? Jeremy: Well, okay. The worst one is obviously easy. It's all about the schlocky pens that don't write. Stephanie: Oh my gosh, yes. Jeremy: Pop socket, lighter. There's some of these things, stuff when they do the hybrid stuff, it's just kind of ridiculous. Like the highlighter that also acts as a compass. It's like, “No, that's not the right thing.” So, a lot of those. And a lot of people trying to sell me on selling their stuff and it's not good. Stephanie: You're like, “No, this is no.” Jeremy: Yeah. I don't want to be mean to anybody. I just say, “I don't think it's the right fit,” or something like that, but it's not good. And the best stuff I think is honestly anything really you're going to keep it. A really high quality water bottle, something you're going to see every single day it's could be on your desk and you're going to get those impressions. I'm really proud of that, but obviously we've done bicycles for companies. We made fully custom bicycles. A company came to us and they had their whole executive team. They're very into health. They want to do something a little bit different, unique. They have a campus. We create a really cool custom, fully custom logo, colors, everything bicycles. That was a really cool project to work on. And obviously we've done really cool backpacks. We did a backpack for Facebook, which I thought was really cool where the logo was nowhere on the outside. Jeremy: [inaudible] was we wanted to make the product so kind of premium. These are like very nice backpacks, that it didn't like scream Facebook. No one even know about it, except for the people who are wearing it. So, it was black-on-black logo on the inside of the backpack, so like when you open, only the people who are wearing it, see it. That's, I think is very important. I knew this was going to happen because frankly I started getting a sense that socks were going to become very popular. We sell [inaudible] socks and clearly socks is very … No one really sees it, but it's all about the person who's putting on the socks, is wearing it, who were seeing your logo. It starts to feel that kind of connection to your brand and eventually becomes that brand evangelist. It's all about that internal. Stephanie: Yeah, that's awesome. What is a new Ecommerce tool that you're trying out that you're loving right now? Jeremy: New Ecommerce tool? We're using a company called [Tend 00:46:36]. It's very early in it, but you're able to kind of track all the different people who are coming to your site without them inputting real information, which I think is kind of spooky, but kind of cool, just to see who's checking what. Stephanie: Cool. Jeremy: For me, it's kind of the core stuff. It's the Intercom, it's the HubSpot, it's just the marketing automation, streamlining things. And there's two different things, obviously with Intercom, which is our real life customer success. People are always here to help and jumping on the phone call. Then you have the HubSpot, which is really automating the experience. Having both sides for our type of businesses is very important. Stephanie: Great. All right. The last one, a little bit harder. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Jeremy: Wow. Stephanie: Yeah. Jeremy: That's a good question. I'm still laser focused on swag. I don't necessarily always think about the broader industry as a whole. I think for swag, I think it's easy. I think it is swag distribution. Everyone's working remotely. I don't see people getting back into the office anytime soon. Even if they do, it's going to be somewhat of a new normal, maybe not every day. People are still going to be able to need to engage with the remote employees or the best customers. And who's going to want to fly across the country, maybe to that trade show. They might want to do things a little more remote and automated. For Swag, that's where we're going and we're going to be automating the distribution of Swag. I think that's our next phase. Jeremy: Or somebody's one year anniversary, send them automatically Swag in the mail. Or somebody's had a baby, send them Happy Mother's Day or Happy Father's Day type of swag in the mail. So, really automating different life activities where you want swag. Stephanie: Awesome. Love it. All right, Jeremy. This has been a blast. Where can people find out more about you and Swag.com? Jeremy: Yeah. You can obviously reach out to me on LinkedIn Jeremy Parker, and obviously come visit us at Swag.com. That's S-W-A-G.com and we would love to work with you on your next order. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining. Jeremy: Thank you so much for having me, guys.

In the music industry, having talent is often not enough to succeed. You need to find a way to stand out and be unique. That’s true when it comes to marketing and ecommerce in the music industry as well.  Eamon Mulligan is the VP of Product & eCommerce at EMPIRE, and it’s his job to help lead a team toward ecommerce success. The way he does that is through creativity and partnerships that have proven to drive traffic in big ways. What kind of unique ideas have they tried, how do they manage to achieve a high ROI on SMS marketing, and what do memes have to do with all of this? Find out on this episode of Up Next in Commerce.  Main Takeaways: Think Outside the Box: In a sector as saturated as the music industry, you need to do everything you can to stand out and get your messaging and products in front of fans. Everyone is still using the traditional channels, but if you think outside the box and test ad content on different platforms — like meme websites — your impact might be larger than you expect. Employ Creative Partnerships and Campaigns: When you partner with artists and get them to buy-in to a creative marketing idea, they can put it out to their fans and followers who will be more likely to see credibility in the product because it’s coming from an artist they already trust. Stay Unintrusive: When utilizing something like SMS marketing, it’s important to be as unobtrusive as possible. It’s also critical to make transacting through text easy by providing direct links and easy access to the store or the cart they left behind. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome, everyone, to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, your host, and today on the show, we have Eamon Mulligan, the VP of Product and eCommerce at EMPIRE. Eamon, welcome. Eamon: Thank you for having me. Stephanie: How's it going? Eamon: Good. Just hanging out at my home office and plugging away. Stephanie: Yeah? Eamon: Yeah. Stephanie: That is good. I've never had anyone on the show in this industry before, in the music industry, so I'm really excited to hear all about it. But first I want to start with you and your background. I saw you have a long history in the music industry, so I wanted to hear how you got involved in that. Eamon: Sure. I guess not to go back too far, but as a kid I always loved music and wanted to be in it somehow. I grew up originally in Napa, California, which is not necessarily a hotbed of the music industry. [crosstalk 00:01:04]. Stephanie: Unless you get too much wine. I guess. Eamon: Yeah. I spent a lot of time traveling down to the Bay Area and watching local groups perform and eventually really attached and followed a local group called Living Legends and befriended them at the time webmaster, this is probably 1999, 2000 ish. And I didn't really know anything, what I was doing at the time, I was talking to the webmaster and asking, I read all these magazines and I see that mentioned in there, but there's never been a full on article, how does that happen? And then he went on to say, "That requires a publicist and BIOS and press kits." So then I started interviewing the guys and putting together BIOS and press kits, which I wish I still had today because I'm sure I would laugh at them. Eamon: And eventually, the Living Legends in 2005 asked me to go on tour with them to assist the tour manager. Previously I had been helping them with online stuff. I had started their MySpace page, their YouTube channel, was helping with an email newsletter. So that was where I cut my teeth a lot in the digital space. And then they had me go on tour. I was the assistant to the tour manager who was also doing merchandise. So I was helping set up the Merch booth, and she was teaching me how to sell stuff and keep tracking everything and all that stuff. Eamon: And then, with two shows left, she had left the tour ... the tour was ending right before Thanksgiving. And she left early, and they were like, "Okay, you're the tour manager now." And then I was like, "What?" Stephanie: Push you right into it. Eamon: Yeah, and they were like, "It's not that hard, it's not rocket science." And they just forced me into it Eamon: I had never gone to college, and so I eventually went back to school. And then so when I finally graduated from school, I initially was thinking, the music industry was fine, maybe I should try my hand at something else. And so I started taking interviews with a couple of ad agencies, advertising was interesting to me. I had taken a couple of the classes while I was in school. Eamon: Nothing really panned out. But at the same time, there was all these music opportunities that kept presenting themselves to me. I looked at that as like, "Okay, I think the universe is trying to tell me something here." And so we had put a release out with EMPIRE in 2011. And Ghazi, the CEO and founder, and I just built rapport, he's a Bay Area guy, grew up, born and raised in the Bay. So we just always kept in touch. And when I got out I shot him an email and said, "Hey, I'm looking for something to supplement my income, I'm still managing, but do you have anything going on?" So we went back and forth for a little bit and then he eventually brought me on to help with the physical distribution side of things and merchandise, which has been a long tale in building [crosstalk 00:07:09]. Stephanie: Tell me a little bit about what EMPIRE is at a high level and what your role looks like there. Eamon: Yeah. So, EMPIRE is really like an all encompassing company. So it originally started as a digital distribution company. Ghazi the founder just completely bootstrapped, was never taken a dime of investments, refuses to sell anything, retain 100%, that kind of autonomy. And eventually the company grew into adding label services with a lot of the distribution that we did. And one of the things that set EMPIRE apart originally was for the distribution deals. He was doing non-exclusive distribution deals. And that was unheard of at the time. People would often catch when he was giving out non-exclusive distribution deals and be like pretty crazy, what are you doing? Stephanie: Yeah. Jump at that. Eamon: Yeah. His thought process was, I'm not in the business of holding people hostage. If anything, hold us accountable, because then we have to earn the business, and it keeps us honest. And so that's been one of the guiding principles of the company to this day. And so, eventually, we started adding more services and more departments. And it's grown into a full fledged record label at this point. And then we also have a publishing arm. So right now we have a distribution, record label, publishing and merchandise. Stephanie: That's awesome. Any artists that I would know? Eamon: Yeah, we work with Snoop Dogg. We just released Adam Lambert album earlier this year. We were instrumental in XXXTentacion career, unfortunately who's passed, Anderson Paak, we were a part of early. We've helped grow a lot of early artists and we're still doing that and also working with a lot of legendary artists as well. Stephanie: Very cool. Yeah, I do know a lot of those names. So that's very impressive. So tell me a little bit about your role at the company as the VP of product and eCommerce when it comes to thinking of record labels. I don't always think eCommerce and of course, when I started looking at you and I was like, oh, yeah, obviously they are. But tell me what your day to day looks like there? Eamon: Sure, I manage our physical distribution and our merchandise team. So on the physical side that looks like setting up and gathering assets for a physical release and setting it up with our physical distribution partners, and getting stuff the product made, so CD, vinyl, cassette, and then making sure that it is getting into all the right stores. We'll also do a lot of exclusive things with Urban Outfitters and Vinyl Me, Please and other retailers, Turntable Lab, et cetera. Eamon: And then on the merchant side that looks like managing ... we have a team of people that's, our account management and web admin and marketing and production. So we're talking with the artists that are signed to our label that we have merchandise rights with and building out merchandise items and coming up with creative ideas. Sometimes it comes all from us, sometimes it's collaborative effort, sometimes the artist has things ready to go. And then we're just helping manufacture a market. But that's ... it ranges from building out the creative, building out web stores, building out marketing assets, as well as back end automation marketing as well. And then ultimately reporting and paying out the artists. Stephanie: All right, cool. So when it comes to thinking about being a label, because I would think some artists might be like, "Oh I'll start up my own eCommerce platform and sell my own merchandise." What makes them want to work with you guys and have you do that for them? Eamon: Sure. A lot of ... we're living in a very independent-minded world in music, especially right now. And that's very different than what it used to be. So, we also have that spirit, but a big part of it is the production and the fulfillment process. A lot of people can build the website and put up a product image just that they made in Photoshop, but when it comes to fulfilling stuff and getting stuff out to customers on time, and then getting things made and knowing how to prep your files and all fun stuff. Those are the areas where they definitely lean on us. Stephanie: Got it. How does the creativity process when it comes to creating merchandise, and making sure that you're creating good merchandise, because I'm sure artists have a lot of ideas around like, here's the thousand things you can do. But I'm guessing that you guys have a lot of insights into like, we've been doing this for a lot of other artists, and we know what sells and doesn't sell. How do you guide them in that creative process? Eamon: Delicately. Stephanie: You have to be creative. You've got to be careful. Eamon: Yeah. It's definitely ... a lot of artists I feel ... I'll say this, that I think a lot of artists are very savvy. And they are watching what's going on, seeing what their peers are doing, and also other artists that they look up to. And they have a lot of great ideas and then some of those ideas maybe a little ahead of where they are in their career. For instance a lot of artists might want to do a cut and sew piece, which means cut and sew, and so it's like you know you're actually fabricating a garment from scratch. You're not buying a blank garment and then just silkscreen something on it. Eamon: Which is possible, but there's high minimums for it to make sense financially. So, sometimes an artist will come to us and say, "Hey, I want to do X, Y, and Z." And then we'll come back and say, "Okay, we can do it, but we have to make like 300 of them." Eamon: And they're like, "We can just make 50?" And I wish we could. There are places that can do it, but the unit cost is going to be really high. So unless you feel like you have a diehard fan base that will pay a premium price on something, it's hard to do. So a lot of times explaining the mechanics of things, helps artists understand it. One of the principles that the company deals transparency and education. We want to educate the artists, we don't want to hoard the knowledge. We want to let them know, "Hey, this is a really cool idea, but it's going to cost this much and we would have to sell it for even more for it to make sense financially." Eamon: And then, a lot of times when you have that conversation they'll say, "Oh, okay, I get it now, let's try to figure something else out." So yeah, that's like ... I think education is probably the biggest tool. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. And how do you guys go about selling With the actual merchandise, is that all under EMPIRE's website or are you putting in other outlets as well? Eamon: So yeah, we have a couple of different ways but we have a general EMPIRE store and so anything that we feel might just be a one off project or might be something that is not going to require a full own store themselves, we'll build out on the EMPIRE store and then things that are larger, it's going to be a longer relationship, we'll build out their own store for them. Those are our two primary sales channels. And then we also have a partnership with another company called Merchbar where they aggregate the products from our back end to artists, Spotify and YouTube channels. Eamon: So when a consumer goes to listen to Spotify and they're on the page and they're scrolling through their profile, they'll see a couple of Merch offerings on the profile. And then similarly on YouTube, if you may have seen it, if you're watching a video, just below the video, there's a merchandise shelf and so there'll be products there. So those are our bigger things. And then we have doubled a little bit in the live event stuff, but obviously right now that's not taking place. Stephanie: So when it comes to the EMPIRE brand, as a fan, maybe I'm not always aware of the label that's behind the artist, so how do you guys think about getting the fans attention from a label perspective, if at all? Eamon: That's a good question. Early in the company's history, we were all about not forcing that, and playing the background as we've grown, and we've become more of a label and less of a distributor. We've definitely made that play a little bit more. So it's like little things from ... we're making a CD or a vinyl including our logo on it, and billboards or advertising, we'll have our logo on it, and sending our artists, EMPIRE sweatsuits so that they wear them and they'll take pictures on them. There's pictures of Diddy in our sweat suits. Stephanie: That's great. Eamon: Cool. Yeah. Stephanie: I need a sweatsuit. Eamon: Yeah, send me your address. I'll get you on. And then we also do a lot of events around larger industry events or around the Grammys, around BET weekend. We throw parties that are widely attended and hard to get into. But that definitely helps spread the name. I would say that, a lot of ... probably right now more of the industry knows about us than the actual consumer. But I think that that's shifting the more we grow and have higher caliber artists. A lot of consumers that are knowledgeable or super fans, excuse me are going to Spotify and looking at the label line and realizing like, "Oh, this is another EMPIRE artist." So, I'll talk to a lot of people who will say, "I didn't know you guys had this artist and that artist and this artist. I saw on Spotify that you guys were the label name." Eamon: So I think that also helps too. I know as a kid, as an avid music listener, I would read all the liner notes, which unfortunately don't exist as much anymore in the digital space. But they're working on correcting that a lot of the DSPs and Spotify and Apples of the world are starting to include a lot of that metadata now. But I think having that information available and then the fans that are in the know will find it. Stephanie: What is your most successful marketing channels or advertising channels for your artists? Because I heard a little bit about EMPIRE you guys do events and billboards and things like that but is it a completely different strategy for marketing your artists? Eamon: General marketing it's a whole suite of things from ... that all connect and play with each other. So it's like putting out content. Isn't like the first part, whether that's audio or a music video. And then making sure that that audio and music video get seen through ads, serving as the fans, letting them know that the album is out, letting Know that new video is out and then direct email marketing. Retargeting, on the merchandise side we use a lot of retargeting apps and services. Especially one that works really well for us is SMS retargeting, and then outdoor advertising billboards. We paste guerilla marketing and then we also have our radio team. Eamon: We have our own radio team and so they're working records at radio. Radio is still a very large discovery platform for people. So that definitely helps bring artists into the general knowledge and then in the digital space, doing things on with a bunch of the meme pages and running that kind of content on there. Stephanie: That's cool. So I want to dive into three of these. Maybe first I want to start with meme advertising. I haven't heard of anyone doing that yet on the show, and I want to hear about how you guys think about doing that and how are you converting people over to either the merchandise or the music or whatnot? Eamon: Yeah. It's really just more of an awareness, like top of the funnel. So it's making sure the content is out there on all these pages that a lot of people are following. So it's like that. And then TikTok has been also a big part of that. So if something catches on TikTok, that's a huge driver for streaming because then people will go and find the song. Who knows what will eventually end up happening with TikTok. But that's been something that's really been cool as well and seeing if something goes viral on TikTok. That's always not something ... we can't control if something goes viral, we can help with the kindling of it, you know what I mean? But ultimately, if it catches it catches, if it doesn't, it doesn't. But the TikTok thing if something goes viral, we've seen huge spikes in the streaming numbers. Stephanie: Do you see any similarities between your videos that are going viral versus the ones that are duds? Eamon: That's a good question. A lot of them are ... on TikTok it's something that a lot of ... if it's anything that people can recreate and take a part of, or take part in sorry in the trend, then that's something that we'll catch. So if it's either doing some dance or doing some little skit or something like that, then those really take off, usually. Those are the ones that we've seen go. And then ... but sometimes it doesn't happen either. And sometimes it happens on songs that we weren't even thinking about. And all of a sudden we'll see that some song is going viral that we didn't even know about. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that's a good reminder of why testing and doing more rather than less is so important, because we see that with some of our ads that we surface too. Some of the most random ads that we use would be the best performing ones, but the ones that we really thought hard about they don't even work a lot. Stephanie: So the other two areas that I'm interested in, you said SMS is working well for you. What kind of messages are you sending to fans in a way that's not annoying and actually helpful? Not intrusive. Eamon: Yeah, it's basically, we're not being intrusive. Well, hopefully we're not, but a part of it on the commerce side it's basically like an abandoned cart email. So it only works also if the customer inputs their number. So if they get all the way to the point where they're filling out the payment information and put their phone number in and maybe their dog ran off the leash or whatever happened, or they don't complete the purchase. There will be a text that gets sent to them automatically and remind them like, "Hey, you left this in your cart." And there'll be a direct link to their cart. And we've seen astronomical return on investment on that, where we'll spend very little money and get thousands of dollars back. Stephanie: That's great. I haven't ... because I do get those texts sometimes. But I don't always have the link that just brings me right to my cart. That seems like a very great way to make sure it's easy, because oftentimes, it'll maybe link back to what I was looking at. But then maybe I'm on a different ... I was on desktop before or maybe now I'm on mobile, and it's a very different experience and actually hard to even purchase or [crosstalk] again. Eamon: Navigating back to where ... yeah. Stephanie: Yeah, that's awesome. Eamon: And then also just like digital marketing, we have a digital street team per se. So we have a general EMPIRE phone number that people can text and they'll get added to the list and then we'll blast out things that we feel are relevant or big announcements. And then we have artists setup as well with that. So a lot of artists have a phone number, and they can actually send text themselves and actually respond to people themselves, if they want to, it depends on the level of engagement they want to be committed to. But it's a good way to ... and you can also geo target that. Eamon: So if we were in a world where touring was going on, you can still, "Okay, I'm going to be in, where Seattle next week so let me send a text message to everyone with the Seattle area code." And say, "Hey, my show is next week, the show box, here's the ticket link." So, like helps in that way and then any new releases, album, merchandise, videos, can also be communicated through those channels. Stephanie: That seems really smart from a lot of companies and brands going more at the local level right now. And engaging with your local community, but how are you encouraging people to actually text you and so that you can even have them on the list to begin with? Because that seems like the initial hiccups to even get people to want to text you in the first place. Eamon: The acquisition. Stephanie: Yeah. Eamon: A lot of it is hinged on the artist and then posting something that says, "Hey, give me a text, shoot me a text and I'll text you back or." There's always some call to action or [inaudible] that's like, I'll text you back or you'll get a sneak peek of new music or a certain percent off my merchandise store, something like that. So there's always some incentive to sign up for the fan. Stephanie: That's great. So with everything's happening with the pandemic, and events and concerts being canceled, what are you guys doing instead? Because it seems like eCommerce is probably something that you're leaning even more heavily into, so what have you changed or plan on changing going forward? Eamon: We've definitely seen an uptakd of inbound requests with people wanting to set up eCommerce with us. So just, one being able to provide that option to people where they might not have the infrastructure on their own to do it has been helpful. And then we're also looking at different ways to partner up with delivery services. So for one of the releases I'm working on doing something with DoorDash. And so it'll be a custom facing restaurants. And then there'll be a couple of Merch items that are available through that. And so if you order the food you can also order a piece of merchandise and it will come with your food order. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Tell me a bit more about that partnership. How did that idea come about and how are you convincing restaurants to also show Merch which maybe could distract someone if they're like, "I'm just trying to order sushi." And then they're like, "Oh, now I'm going down a [inaudible] of [crosstalk] as well" What does that feel like? Eamon: Yeah. So the project I'm doing on is the whole theme of albums are restaurant themed. So it made sense. The idea initially ... we were talking about it right as the quarantine happened, and at that time, it was like, "Oh, maybe it'll be done in a month." And so we were thinking of doing an actual pop up restaurant, like a physical pop up and like a restaurant in LA. And then as time went by, and we realized this is not going to end in a month We started thinking of other ways we could effectively do the same thing but not do it in a physical space where we would be having people come and gather. So we have a partnership team and I believe we have a connection to DoorDash and a couple of other delivery services, Postmates and maybe Uber Eats. Eamon: And we just reached out to DoorDash and presented the idea and they were into it. So it's still in the final phases right now of being launched. But the DoorDash team is handling the restaurant end of things. So they're basically going to be partnering with restaurants and going to specific restaurants and asking if they can provide a specific menu or menu items. And then within the app, it'll be basically a virtual pop up. So it'll be in its own restaurant and people will be able to order from there. But it's really on the back end, like an actual restaurant. Eamon: And it was also a cool way for us to try to support some of that, because the restaurant sector just took such a hard hit with the pandemic. We were like, how can we do this and not and also help that sector of the economy? Stephanie: Yeah, I love the creativity behind that. Eamon: Yeah. Stephanie: Yeah that's really great. What are other creative campaigns or projects that you've done like that before that either they worked really and you're like, "Oh, that's surprising." There's just a funny or random idea that worked well, or maybe one that you set up and you're really betting on and then it just didn't do anything? Because a lot of the things you're mentioning now when it comes to your marketing and channels you're trying out, you're probably one of the more creative companies we've had on the show that's literally trying a bunch of different things and new things that I've never heard of. So I want to hear a little bit more about this. Eamon: Yeah, we're definitely not afraid to take a leap and try things. One of the cool things that we did last year, we put out Snoop Dogg's album, "I Wanna Thank Me" and this was one of those things where we did it. We thought it was awesome, and we didn't feel like it fully connected. But we basically ... our digital team had someone build an augmented reality filter on Snapchat of the album cover. And so If you scanned ... on the marking sticker for the album, we put the little Snapchat like QR code and said, "Scan this code in Snapchat to hear a special message from Snoop Dogg." So you open Snapchat, you scan it, and then you put the album cover in your viewfinder on the phone and then the album cover comes to life and it was Snoop Dogg. He had, I forget what award show was that he had given a speech saying ... when people accept the words [inaudible 00:39:33], I want to thank God, I want to thank my family, blah, blah. Eamon: And he got to, I want to thank me because without me, without my hard work ... it's like a very endearing speech. And that was fully animated and you could move it in different angles, and it was like 360. And that was really cool, but I don't feel like that really virally took off at least. But that was one of the things that was different and unique that we did. Right now we're actually doing a giveaway for one of our artists Young Dolph, he is giving away his Lamborghini and to enter you basically buy Merch product that's bundled with the album on pre order. So yeah, that's a- Stephanie: I want a Lambo. Eamon: Yeah. Store.youngdolph.com. Stephanie: Go do that. Eamon: Yeah. So that's something that we're doing right now that we've never done. That's we're testing out. The first couple of days were really big and now we're trying to figure out how to keep it going. Stephanie: Have you seen any hesitancy with consumers with ... you've got all the stuff that like, I'll give you Bitcoin if you do this, and you'll win a free car if you do this. And it seems like it's a good mix between spammers and scamming people and fraud and then actual real competitions going on or giveaways. How are you balancing that in a way that people trust like, "Oh, yeah this person is real, or they're actually going to give away their Lamborghini or whatnot." Eamon: Yeah, I think that probably there's probably still some skepticism on the fans end at some level at all times, but the artist has posted on his social media so that always helps. That's helped one drive traffic to the store to ... it shows that it's coming directly from the artist and not just this unknown entity. So that definitely helps. There's a bunch of legal language on the site that explains everything if you feel so inclined to read legalese, but it's all there [inaudible] Stephanie: I do not. Eamon: Yeah. Stephanie: Okay, got it. So I guess one last bigger question before we jump into a lightning round is what is your guidance on larger brands being creative, having creative partnerships, marketing campaigns, how would you tell another brand to come up with these creative ideas or to really get into a mode of experimentation? Eamon: I think there's a couple elements. One it's having ... I think a part of it comes top down. Our founder and CEO, Ghazi he's always been like, try it if it doesn't work, then move on, but try something. So he's always been encouraging of that. So I think if you have that culture in your DNA, as a company, then I think that helps. The other thing is, I think obviously hiring the right talent, and having the right minds and skill sets they can think of and structure and eventually execute these things. [inaudible] we have a lot of young creative minds on the team and then some people that are a little bit older, they can help execute things that maybe have a little bit more experience of seeing things through or just executing. Eamon: I think the end of the last one, I think would probably just be ... what do I want to use here? The right infrastructure. If the company is really big, there's probably a lot of bureaucracy and red tape. We are lucky because we are independently owned, we're a small company so we can be nimble. So we are able to move and react quickly. But I think having the courage, I guess to jump out and try something is probably one of the bigger things. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. And execution, like you mentioned is so key. Earlier, you were like, "Oh, we just reached out to DoorDash and just ask them if they want to partner." I think a lot of people might have an idea like that and then not just think, let me just email them and see if they'll want to partner on this which is Just [inaudible 00:45:21]. Eamon: Yeah, We are experts at not taking no for an answer. We are just like, keep trying and try to find different ways to get it done. Stephanie: Yeah, I will get to DoorDash. Just [inaudible] keep sending emails. That's good. Cool. I was thinking now we can move into the lightning round, if you're ready. It's a quick lightning round where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Eamon: Sure. Stephanie: All right. What new up and coming artists are you all most excited about right now? Eamon: We're growing a lot in the African space. We recently opened an outlet in Nigeria. So there's a lot of good music coming out of there. Patoranking is one, Fireboy DML is another and then I also work with an artist to plug a little bit but with EMPIRE but Tobi Lou is another artist that I'm working with, that I'm really excited about. Stephanie: Cool. I'll have to check out all those artists. What app or piece of tech are you most enjoying right now? Eamon: I would say the standby Instagram, I guess. I probably spend the most time on that app just scrolling through and seeing what's going on. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. I love Instagram. And then the last one if you were to create a Netflix or Hulu original or documentary, what would it be about? Eamon: Maybe about us, maybe about EMPIRE. I think that'll be interesting. Stephanie: There you go. If you don't celebrate yourself, no one else will you. I like that. Cool. Well, Eamon this has been such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about EMPIRE and you? Eamon: You can find out more about EMPIRE at our websites empi.re. No dot com, no dot net, just empi.re/empire. I think all social channels. So Instagram, Twitter, et cetera. And then for myself, Instagram/eamon E-A-M-O-N. Stephanie: Awesome. And thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been a blast. Eamon: Thank you for having me.

If you really stop to think about your clothing and the prices you pay for it, you might find that you’re left with a few questions. For example, how can a t-shirt cost less than your morning cup of coffee? Surely the materials and labor involved in designing, making, and shipping a t-shirt are more costly than a few coffee beans and some milk.  That low-cost t-shirt is the result of the fast-fashion business model which has swept through the fashion industry. The result is that we may have more access to cheap clothes, but the quality is poor and the environmental and humanitarian cost could potentially be catastrophic. Zana Nanic is the Founder and CEO of Reclaim, a slow-fashion Ecommerce brand, and she is on a mission to change the way people buy clothes.  On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Zana explains how she started Reclaim after becoming fed up with the business casual, fast-fashion norms of Silicon Valley. Plus, she dives into what you have to learn from your customers during the initial launch of your business, and why she believes that an omnichannel approach is the best way to find success in the future. 3 Takeaways:   First impressions matter. You have very little time to make a lasting impression when someone visits your page. Relaying the information that will get them to convert must be delivered in the first few seconds a potential customer visits your page. Returning customers is the holy grail metric for a small or start-up company, especially as it relates to the slow-fashion industry. When customers return to buy more, it tells you that they value you and your products and you can build a stronger relationship with them. Invest in pop-up shops and omnichannel strategies to help convey the quality of the clothing. These tactics yield a more valuable and loyal customer.   For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to up next in commerce. This is your host Stephanie Postles and today, we have... Let me get the name right. Today, we have Zana Nanic on the show, the CEO and founder of Reclaim. Zana, welcome to the show. Zana: Thank you so much for having me. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm really excited. I'd love to hear a little bit about Reclaim. Zana: My story is not the typical story of she liked fashion and therefore she's super creative and wanted to do fashion. I am originally Croatian and I moved to Italy because Croatia was in the middle of a civil war. I grew up in Italy as a refugee and my parents, I remember, they were trying to get a job and they couldn't get any job because they didn't speak fluent Italian. Somehow, it was the early '90s them and fashion was the thing to do in Italy. Somehow, they started working in the fashion industry, very, very small and they were lucky enough to have a pretty successful run with it. Zana: But to me growing up, fashion was this amazing tool for empowerment. It was something that you could wear and forget a little bit of your identity. I had this very heavy label I was carrying with me, I'm a refugee, a foreigner, an immigrant, and as a child, sometime, it was pretty heavy. But when you had the right outfit and you look really nice, people just assume different things and admired you and were inspired by you. Zana: Fashion became a little bit my armor and then going into my adult life, it really became a tool I would leverage and use to present myself in a certain way. Giving you an example, when I was at Uber, I was one of the youngest people there and I was already managing. Having the appropriate dress code that made me look a little bit older than my age was essential for my confidence. Very much today as well. Zana: Reclaim really is this testament to how do I help women connect to themselves more and just open up opportunities so they don't have to worry about their outfit, but worry about much bigger and much more important things in their life. Zana: Reclaim is a fashion brand we started eight months ago and we focus on a very limited collection, all the wardrobe staples that every woman needs. But what we try to do is combine Italian craftsmanship and artisans. I'm Italian and my family is in Italian manufacturing. I literally grew up and made in Italy fashion. We tried to combine that aspect of fashion where beautiful aesthetic and a beautiful detail with love for practicality and function. Zana: I currently live in San Francisco, very Silicon Valley. Everybody's superefficient, super go getter. We try to incorporate those to [inaudible] and the clothes, and we have a very limited collection of things that are practical, functional but also extremely beautiful. Stephanie: Very cool. I was reading a little bit about your story of how you were in pencil skirts and heels and then you came to Silicon Valley and everyone was wearing hoodies and jeans and you're like, "I want something a little better." Zana: Yeah, that was a bit of a shocker because I grew up in Italy, where fashion is part of your identity, such a country that has a sensibility for beauty and art and culture, and fashion is a form of art. I was coming from a very corporate world. I wear pencil skirt, high heels, very formal wear was the day today. Zana: And then my first job at Silicon Valley was working for Google. I remember showing up there and everybody was wearing jeans and sneakers and T-shirts. I adapted to that lifestyle in the work outfit. But I also felt super underdressed. I'm like, "Ah, last time I wore this outfit, I was 15 and in high school." Is there anything a little bit more elevated? I feel like an adult and a woman with a career but still appropriate for business casual, and this is a little bit where Reclaim came from was how can we define a business casual aesthetic that is elevated but still very approachable and affordable Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. It's funny. I also worked at Google and if you would even get what would be considered maybe dressed up, they'd be like, "Oh, where are you going today? Do you have a date afterwards?" You're like, "No, I just want to wear a dress today. I just want to wear something cute." Zana: 100%. It will be, "Are you interviewing for a different job?" Stephanie: Yes, I would get that too. You're working at Google, what did your career look like before Reclaim at Google or some of the other corporations? Were you in eCommerce or was that a big shift for you? Zana: It was a little bit of a shift. I mentioned before my family's in fashion so they have boutiques on the Italian coast stuff but very old school. They barely have a website and they do a lot of manufacturing and older clientele hasn't been the same for 30 years. I grew up in commerce but not eCommerce, a different generation. Zana: When I graduated college, I didn't think about fashion as a career option to be honest. I was like, "I want to do something that is different." Everybody I knew was in fashion. I was like, "I want to do something completely different and break the path with what my family is doing." I ended up in consulting. I ended up in management consulting and I didn't work for some fashion clients, but mostly I did a lot of projects and hardcore heavy industry, and after that I worked at Uber. Zana: I was managing Uber Eats in Italy which is different than fashion but is related to commerce and how to get conversion and how to get people to purchase your products. Some of the themes were similar and then the Google role was a mix of the two. It's a little bit of strategy and a little bit of execution and was focused on growing this smart home business. Zana: I would say that the career path I took was not a fashion career path and then this shift happened in business school. When I went to business school, I realized actually I do want to embrace my roots and there is a lot I know and I can offer and I spotted this niche in the market and this gap that was really needed. Honestly, it was my pain point. I was like, "I really don't know where to shop and I want to wear beautiful clothes but I also don't ever want to go dry clean them." That was the perfect solution. Stephanie: Yeah, that's super important. I remember one time I had dresses to dry clean only I'm like, "I'm going to throw that dress away. I'm not going to do that. I don't do dry clean." Zana: I also have a lot of beautiful cashmere sweaters and I wear them once per season because they end up in my pile of stuff I need to bring to dry cleaning and it takes me months to go. Stephanie: When you're shifting into creating Reclaim, did you tap into your family say, "Hey, here's what I'm doing," and start brainstorming with them since they are the experts but not in eCommerce but maybe in the industry when it comes to high end retail? Zana: 100%. They were my first consultants, advisors, investors. They heard it all. My family business was a little bit like the sounding board for Reclaim and I spend a lot of time with the people in my family business and my family contacts. Like our pattern maker, for example, that we use in Reclaim she's a person that I met through my family. She's based in Florence. She's super, super talented and I designed with her most of the clothes that you see in the Reclaim collection because I would bring in the creative perspective and the vision, but then the nitty gritty manufacturing specs, somebody who's an expert has to do them. A lot of the concepts come from my family background. Stephanie: That network that seems a great way to start a company when you have different connections that you can tap into like that and different lessons that you can bring with you. That's awesome. What did the early days of Reclaim look like? Tell me a little bit about starting it up and building the website presence and how you were thinking about attracting your first few customers. Zana: The early days... We launched last summer. That was our first collection launch. I'd say the early day was a little bit like still discovery. I want to say that that lasted for the first few months. From launch to beginning of January was a discovery moment. You come in and you've done a lot... At least, when I launched the website, I talked with more than 2000 women at that point. I thought I know it all. I've talked to them. I understood what they want. Zana: I have a crystal clear picture what is needed, but then, when you have a website is when you start learning for real because one thing is the people that you have face to face what are they telling you and another thing is, "Oh, how are people interacting on my website? What products are they looking at? What are they purchasing? Which ones are asking questions? Which product are getting returned?" Zana: I would say the real learning starts when you are putting something in front of people's faces and you're asking them, "Put your credit card information and buy." That's when you're learning. Do you have product market fit? Or is there something you need to change? Zana: The early days were very, very busy. A lot of documentation and a lot of learning. We really cared about nailing it. Our first 300 to 400 customers, I would personally give them a call and just ask them, "How come you purchased? What convinced you? What did you like?" And just spend a lot of time learning and writing all that knowledge down and taking that feedback in. At the end of the day, we'd be like, "What did we learn today?" And just the bad thing and improving what you're doing. Zana: I wouldn't say that commerce is you have an idea, you put it out there and build it and they'll come. It doesn't really work like that. It's literally like take a lot of pride into changing things every day and iterating as fast as possible. Stephanie: I love that. You had a good point of a lot of people sometimes think build it and they'll come. But oftentimes, that's not the case even if you have an epic product or website or whatever it may be. How did you find your first couple of customers? How did they find your website? How did you get in front of people? Did you do some marketing? Zana: Marketing is a great way to attract people. Our first customers came from the Stanford network. I went to Stanford Business School. The first purchaser were people within my network. People that graduated from Stanford, Stanford alumni, or people that were affiliated with the university because we market it in the university network. And then following that, we had a lot of word of mouth. People who were wearing our products will tell their friends. We had a lot of referral. Our first batch of people that started using the product were referral, learned about us through referral, and then paid marketing. Zana: We did paid marketing on Instagram and Facebook. That is a channel that you use to raise awareness about your brand and your product. Our second wave was through paid marketing. Stephanie: Very cool. How often are you all launching products or new lines? Zana: We are a slow fashion company. Let's say, Zara. Zara would launch 20 collections a year, something that is not like fast fashion but still a high fashion. They would launch 14 collections a year which is a huge number. We're a slow fashion company so what we do we launch very, very few products, but we spent an enormous amount of time making sure that those products are amazing and they're done with the best material and the construction and fit are very well done. Zana: In total so far, we have launched one collection last summer and then we're coming up with our second one this coming August and it's a fall and winter collection and we're having just four products, four basic products, but they're done so much better than what's out in the market. Stephanie: Very cool. When you say four basic products, am I thinking like a T-shirt, a black dress like that kind of product? Zana: Yeah, I can tell you more. We're going to have white button down and the special thing about this white button down is that the front layer is actually made out of two different layers of fabric. You can 100% be sure that your white button down is not going to be see through which is a common problem every woman faces. And then material is the tencel material which is only produced in Germany, is highly sustainable, and it's one of the most ethically conscious materials. Zana: Another thing we're launching is two-piece jumpsuit and it's also made in tencel, so super nice fabric. We made it two-piece because, I don't know if that happens to you but it always happens to me, when you're wearing a jumpsuit and you're feeling amazing and then you go to the bathroom and you have this humbling moment where you're completely naked in your office bathroom. We're like, "No, it has to be practical." We made it look like it's only one piece but it's actually two pieces. Stephanie: That's awesome. I think every woman who's either tried on a jumpsuit or worn one you're like, "Oh, this is kind of awkward." Zana: Yeah, you look great and then the first moment where you actually have to live your life, you're like, "Oh, this is going to be difficult." Zana: And then the third product we're launching are... Those were our bestsellers in our first collection so we made some tweaks to them, but it's a pair of pants. They're made out of a super stretchy fabric but basically you're wearing a pair of black pants that look very nice and professional, but they're absurdly comfortable because the fabric is a 4-way stretch. You're feeling like you're wearing yoga pants but you look like you're wearing a really nice pair of black jeans. Stephanie: That's good. I need that. Zana: Our customers love them. We've got the most responses on those because they're such a good cheat. You're super comfortable but not inappropriate. Zana: And then the fourth product we're producing is going to be a camel coat. This one, the fabric is amazing. It's 30% cashmere and the rest is merino wool. It's super nice and soft. You literally want to sleep with the fabric, just the fabric price is $250 worth of fabric. It's super expensive but going direct to consumer, we will be able to price this product at a 350. It's one of the most affordable best quality materials that you'll be able to find. Stephanie: That's great. How are you conveying this quality and value to consumers or new customers when they're coming on your website? It's hard if you can't feel the fabric or try something on or know the backstory behind it that it's coming from Germany or Italy. How are you conveying that message on your website? Zana: That's a great question. Honestly, that is one of the hardest things to do because in a store, it's very easy. Somebody walks in, you touch it, you try it on, you talk with a store associate and you understand the message. In e commerce, you have roughly 10 seconds to make an impression. That's how much time people spend on one page before they decide. "Will I shop here?" Or they'll just bounce and go somewhere else. Zana: I think here is one of the areas where we did the most learning. Initially, we would have a lot of marketing language to be honest. The highlight or have some bullet points. Now, our learning is actually, no, like the women are coming on our website they really want to learn. We do exactly how I described them to you. We have lengthy copy, we go into the details, we give people the story. You don't have to read it. Zana: But if you're interested, there are pages into story of the material, what is the German fabric that is making this material. We provide all of that information out there and then we do big visual. Visuals and images is what converse the best and what people are resonating the most. We combine the text and the rich information with images, beautiful lifestyle images that people can see a zoomed in image of the fabric and reviews. Zana: We have also a lot of product reviews where every single customer that purchased with us we've reached back and asked them if they want to review the product if they loved it and oftentimes they do, which is great. Stephanie: That's awesome. How are you encouraging those reviews when a customer buys? Zana: We have an entire review post purchase encouragement system. The first attempt is always just to ask and usually... We have an email where I just introduce myself and tell them the story of our brand and how valuable their reviews are and that's where most of the people do their reviews. And then our second or third interaction is we provide them with a discount to a future purchase in exchange for a review. Stephanie: That's cool. Is there any split testing you do there that you've seen that worked better? I know we were speaking, I think, a couple weeks ago to the founder of Hous and she was talking about how she puts an image of her and her husband on a pamphlet every time they send a box or a thank you or something like that and that helps convert. Have you seen any best practices around that? Zana: The reason why we use my personal email for the reviews and I introduced myself is because people do like the personal touch. I'm sure that the founder of Hous was putting an image of her and her husband... People form a connection. My customers have the feeling that they know me and they're purchasing from an actual person. That is a real bond. Zana: I had one customer who bought a pair of pants from us and then she wore those pants on her family photo shoot with her newborn baby. She emailed me afterwards and she was like, "Oh, I want you to have the photos of our family photo shoot because I wore your pants and I look so great and the photos are beautiful." And I was just shocked. I was like, "This is so nice. This is amazing." Zana: I don't think I've ever emailed a brand to share like, "Oh, I wore this for an important moment of my life." I felt so attached. I remembered that made my day. The fact that something that I came up with and I designed and produced and spent time thinking up on, it's something that made her photo shoot more special and she felt prettier and more confident was very meaningful to me. Stephanie: That's really cool. That is a good customer to have. Hopefully, you can keep her long term. Zana: We have the craziest customer. We had one customer who purchased our perfect pants, the pants that are super comfy but they look professional. She purchased one pair. She loved them so much that she purchased 12 of the same size, the same... I remember seeing this order and I was like, "There must be a mistake." Zana: We email her because we thought there was a mistake or a glitch in the system and she was like, "No, I really love your pants. I want to have one for everyday of the week and I always want to have one ready because those are the pants I wore the most, so I just purchased 12." And I was just like, "I love you. You're amazing. Where do I find more customers like you?" Stephanie: Yeah, really. If you know, you know. That's great. Are you trying to also cross sell to a customer? I'm guessing when someone comes on your website and there's not a huge product catalog, it's probably beneficial to be able to say, "You're looking at this sweater. You should try this pair of pants with it too." How are you thinking about showing other products and are you personalizing at all? Zana: Yeah. The collection that we're launching is only four pieces and you're meant to have them all and they work as a capsule. All the colors are in the same color palette and they're all made to be mixed and matched. The idea is that you do purchase the entire catalog, and we're very mindful. Zana: The collection that we're coming up now is very much in line with the one we had before just a different cuts and different styles, but all the ones we are going to do in the future we're going to keep the same color palette and consistent materials so that people that decide to be Reclaim customers will have a trusted brand where they can have the entire wardrobe being a Reclaim wardrobe and it will always work for them because we're not going to have crazy fashion forward pieces that you buy once and they don't go with anything that you own. All the colors that we pick are very much neutral, creams, beige, black, and white. But it's a palette made to be mixed and matched and to do cross selling. Stephanie: Got it. Do you see people normally do buy multiple products at once? Or is there a little bit of convincing afterwards? If someone's like, "Oh, I'm just going to buy the button up and pants," are you then saying, "You forgot the sweater. You forgot the jumpsuit." Zana: Both. On average, people buy two products. That's our website average. But oftentimes people who bought and liked the products come back to the website and either buy more or just like fill their carts to try new products. Both things are true. Average first order is at least two items and then we have a lot of returning customers. Stephanie: Cool. Is there analytics that you're checking out to either see did they add something to their cart and removed it or were they hovering over something for a long time? Or is there any metrics that you look at behind the scenes to target those customers? Zana: 100%. We have an abandoned cart flow. We call them flow. When we see somebody put something in their cart and then they ended up not checking out, basically an email follows them and ad follows them for a few days just to remind them that they still have this product in their cart and if they want to purchase it, then people who do purchase get an introduction to every product of the collection. They will receive emails to learn about the different products. If somebody, for example, bought the camel coat and then the following weekend then email about the pants. They can go back and purchase the pants. Zana: But there are some Holy Grail metrics that we look at as a startup. For us, returning customer is super important, even more than customer acquisition, even more than value of the basket size. Returning customer is what we really care about because that's the metric that shows how do people like you and how do people trust you and how well do they like your product. Stephanie: How do you reengage a customer if you have your... I think you mentioned slow fashion is the industry that you're in. How do you reengage someone when you might not have another product launch for six months or a year? Zana: You don't. That is a little bit the tradeoff. You can either have customers who are going to buy lots of pieces with you and you're going to have a high lifetime value of that customer, but they might not like you that much. They might consider you as us. "I bought it because it was cheap and it was on sale and I keep it in my wardrobe." But then the first Marie Kondo moment you have and you go through your wardrobe that is the first item that doesn't give you joy. Zana: Our model is very different. Our model is we're going to do fewer much better pieces and a customer will wait for our collection to come because they know it's going to be superior quality and it's going to be a piece that they will buy and keep for years. Stephanie: That's a good idea. Is there any education that you give your customers around why they should move away from the idea of the fast fashion industry or how to think about that? Any education behind the scenes that you're also doing? Zana: We are vocal about it in our Instagram but we're also considering starting a blog just to educate about what is this little fashion movement. But I would say that in 2020, a lot of the people that we interact with are extremely conscious consumers especially the younger generation. They know if a product is sustainable. They care if a product has an impact on the environment. Zana: I would say that it's the age of information. If somebody wants to know how ethical a company is and how much they honored your commitment, it's very easy to learn that. I don't know. I remember 15 years ago when fashion companies were like, "Oh, everybody's telling us we're not green." And they all started doing marketing campaigns in the middle of the forest. Get away with that. Literally, it's a practice called greenwashing. Stephanie: I had never heard about that but I do remember seeing images of people in new outfits and whatnot marketing them while they were sitting on a tree branch or standing in a field. Zana: Yeah, literally. That is called greenwashing where you basically show some images that could make your customers think that you're greener or more ethical than you actually are. I despise that. I don't want to be that kind of company ever. Zana: For us, it's very important just the customer that we have care and we do too. I'm okay if somebody who is not our ideal customer doesn't want to shop with us. I'm okay with that. If our price point is too high or if being sustainable is too expensive, I'm happy to have a smaller market but be company that is worth having in this world, than compromising on my morals and having great profitability. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. It seems like your consumers would be interested in the community aspect of... You have a great personal story. You have a good story behind your company, a fun process, probably if they wanted to see behind the scenes of who's making what and how you're thinking about your designs and coming up with ideas and balancing all that out. How do you think about building a community around your brand? Zana: Our social media is our most powerful channel to share. We always post stories of behind the scenes and what's happening and what are we going through. That is the channel where the community is starting to mobilize. But in general, we do a lot of in person events. Not now because COVID changed that. But before COVID we would do brunch and browse, shop and sit. We would do events like this or and we target professional women in San Francisco because this is where we're based. We were very active on Facebook groups for professional women. Zana: We would have events where women can just come together and talk about their challenges and how they're advancing their career and simultaneously try on new great clothes. That is something that we help foster a lot. Stephanie: That's fun. I want to do one of the brunch and browses. That sounds awesome. Were you doing popup shops? Or how were people were they browsing? Online while in person or how do you think about the in person experience and retail locations? Zana: We have a partnership with a company like... We have multiple partnerships with companies that only have stores. We were in a Re:store in downtown San Francisco. They had our products on for six months. Now, they're close but they're reopening soon. And then we're opening our location in L.A. and one in New York with [inaudible 00:28:27]. We have partnerships with companies that basically bring URL brands and products in real life events. Stephanie: That's cool. How do you think about creating those partnerships and finding the right person, the right store? How would if someone was brand new go about finding a partnership like that? Zana: You have to make sure that is the right path you want to go on. I say that because retail distribution at this moment is not something that we could afford because we are a direct to consumer brand. We use premium materials and we make sure that our materials are done in an ethical and sustainable way. Our product cost is pretty high. We still keep prices as affordable as we can. Therefore, we don't have enough margin to pay a store or retailer and have a big distribution. Therefore, the partnership that we use we see them more as an opportunity to have a marketing presence in L.A. or New York. Zana: If somebody wants to touch our products and learn more about them, they can actually go and have a physical retail presence but it's more an exercise and a way to discover products rather than a sales channel for us. Our direct to consumer website is our number one channel for sure. It's the place that we use because that is the only way we can pass on as much price saving to the customer as we can. Stephanie: Yep. That makes sense. How have you seen conversions when it comes to people seeing something in person and then buying it online? Were you tracking that? Have you seen success in that model? Zana: What we noticed is that people who discover us in person are very loyal. The people who have had the chance to try on pieces and have had the chance to touch all the materials, they are the ones who end up buying. Most of the products have the highest basket size and they're the ones coming back just because they had the opportunity to discover everything and literally touch it with their own hands rather than seeing it on a website. There was definitely a benefit to that. Zana: But as I said, we are thinking about a model where in the future you can have a store where you discovered a product and touch and feel it but the growth will still come from eCommerce rather than opening stores across America. That's not something that we're thinking about at all. Stephanie: Got it. Maybe having like guide shops style where people can go in and look at it and then still go online and order to keep your margins down where you guys have now or close to it, I guess, not where they're at. Exactly. Very cool. To shift into more general eCommerce questions, what kind of trends are you most excited about over the next year or two around e commerce? Because a lot of things are shaking up right now, so I'm sure there's a lot on your mind. Zana: Yeah. Oh my God. eCommerce has been exploding. COVID definitely helped the eCommerce grow, but we're seeing multiple trends. One trend was definitely... Apparel did suffer a little bit. Zana: When COVID started in March, we saw an impact on our sales because everybody was scared. Most people are working from home. Our pieces are investment pieces to make you look great when you go to work or when you're out and about. It's not at leisure. And suddenly, the world is shopping for pajamas. We saw there was an impact to our sales. But the trend is quickly changing. Already in April, we saw a bump in sales and we think it's stimulus check giving an impetus to, "Let's buy nice beautiful clothes." We're seeing different trends. Zana: In terms of things I'm excited about, I'm very excited about sustainability. I'm very excited about slow fashion, the fact that consumers really care and want to purchase companies that our ethical. Zana: I'm most excited that customers are seeing that fast fashion and buying on sale and buying seasonal pieces is not something that they want to keep on doing. It's something that it's okay for your early 20s when you're broke and you want to be on trend, but the moment you're in your 30s or 40s, you want to have a more of a... They call it like a French lady aesthetic. Few pieces, very well done, super high quality, but not always make you look very chic rather than a bunch of things that do not make sense together. Stephanie: There's this one company that always targets me on Instagram and they drop new products, I think, it's every week and it got to a point where it's like, "Is this even quality? How can you drop new product lines every single week?" I started looking into it and you're like, "The reviews are pretty bad." "Oh, it's not..." Like you said there's no good ethical practices that are happening behind the scenes, but they're just very good at marketing. Zana: Ask yourself. If you see a T-shirt that is being priced six, $7, think about it. If the cost of Starbucks coffee is four or $5 and making your coffee is much easier than making a T-shirt that requires fabric, people sewing it, machines, transportation, it just makes you think. Somewhere in the supply chain, they must be taking some shortcuts. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. It definitely is a good time too around apparel for a lot of people to rethink, like you said, what they're wearing, what's important because right now everyone's been in workout clothes and now even myself, it's like, "What do I really want to invest in going forward?" Because up until now, I've only had to worry about my top half and just have a nice looking shirt on maybe. Stephanie: But once it starts going back to work and going out into the world, I do think there will be a big shift in the consumers mind around, "What do I actually want to wear going forward and not just, like you said, for a season or a few weeks and then be done with it and clog up your closet space?" Zana: Exactly. That's definitely a trend that we want to participate in where if you already have a limited disposable income because the world is an uncertain place right now rather than spending it on things that are not going to last or that are questionable, spend a little bit more on fewer things which ends up being the same amount of money at the end of the day. But you're 100% happier with the premium pieces. Stephanie: All right. Let's move on to the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where I send a question your way and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready? Zana: Yeah. Stephanie: What's up next on your reading list? Zana: The Wheel of Time. It's a fantasy book. Stephanie: I haven't heard of it. I have to check it out. What's up next on your Netflix or Hulu queue? Zana: Oh my God, don't judge me for this but I think it's going to be The Bold Type or Selling Sunset. Don't hate me for this. I watch everything that was watchable on Netflix. Now I'm starting to trash watching. Stephanie: I actually can't judge you. It's funny because I was just watching Selling Sunset last night. I'm like, "This is so embarrassing but I'm going to keep watching it because it's really funny and I ran out of things to watch." No judgment coming from my side. Stephanie: Next on your travel destinations when you're able to travel again? Zana: I want to go to Italy. I know it's cheating but because I'm international in America, the recent visa immigration policies have been really difficult. I haven't seen my family in a year now and the moment this is all over, I'm going to Italy. I'm going to vacation for a month and I'm going to make all my friends jealous on Instagram. I don't care but I deserve it. Stephanie: I think I'm just going to come with you. You don't even have to worry about me. I'll just get behind the scenes. I'll be like, "Hey, mom and dad, where's my pasta?" Zana: We can go to Italy and watch Selling Sunset. I think we have a plan. Stephanie: Yeah, there we go. It'll be a perfect girls' trip. Stephanie: What's up next on your shopping list? Zana: I actually want to buy a nice desk. I'm eyeing this beautiful wood desk on AllModern. I think that's going to be my next purchase. Stephanie: Oh, that sounds great. If you were able to pick anyone to go to brunch with, other than me because that'd be a blast, who would you pick? It can be a celebrity or whoever you want. Zana: Oprah. I'll definitely go to brunch with Oprah or AOC, one of the two. I have a big girl crush on both of them so I should decide which one. Stephanie: You can bring them both. That sounds fun. And the last harder one, what one thing do you think will have the biggest impact on eCommerce in the next year? Zana: Next year? Stephanie: In the next year, yep. Zana: This one is a hard one. I don't know if under one minute it's answerable, but I think different forms of creative so Tik Tok is exploding. How to leverage different platforms like Tik Tok or just different forms of creating than the usual that we've been accustomed to see. Stephanie: Cool, great answer. It's been super fun having you on here. Where can people find out more about you and Reclaim? Zana: They can always shop and this is reclaim.com and follow us on our Instagram @thisisreclaim. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on the show. It was really fun and we'll have to have you back in the future. Zana: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.  

As Randy Goldberg says, ‘no one dreams of going into the sock business.’ But if there is one sock company you can name off the top of your head, it’s probably the one Randy built with co-founder Dave Heath. Bombas Socks has grown from a small Ecommerce company with a mission into a $100-million dollar enterprise, and the success they’ve had all boils down to remembering the fundamentals.  On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Randy takes us through his journey to Bombas. He details why founders need to avoid ‘shiny object syndrome’ and focus their sights on the basics if they want to succeed. Plus, he talks about Bombas’ culture of transparency and how to decide between leading with the company mission or the merits of the product when trying to attract customers. Key Takeaways: Bring in the Right People. Scaling requires people — employees, execs, investors, and mentors. Lean on your network, ask questions, hire carefully, and create a dialog with other D2C companies to learn from them. Pro tip: It’s time to bring someone else in when you start to ask questions that neither you nor anyone on your team can answer Ask Yourself, “What Matters More?” When it comes to getting better conversions, don’t let shiny objects distract you. For example, changing the copy or placement of a video matters a lot less than the speed of the site. The faster your site speed, the more conversions you will have. Stay focused on what investments really convert Transparency Impacts the Bottom Line. When employees feel invested in the company and comfortable in the environment you create, they begin to ask more questions, buy-in to the company mission, and work harder to achieve success for themselves and the company For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of mission.org. Today, I'm really excited to have Randy Goldberg on the show, the co-founder and Chief Brand Officer at Bombas. Randy, welcome. Randy: Thank you for having me. Happy to be here. Stephanie: Really excited to have you. Thanks for taking the time. I'd love to dive into your background a little bit before we get into Bombas, a little bit about what brought you into the world of Ecommerce and starting Bombas. Randy: Yeah, I guess, we have a sock company, an Ecommerce sock company. I say this a lot, but I don't think anybody ever really grows up dreaming of being in the sock business. It was kind of a winding path for me to arrive at Bombas and to think about this company. My background is in branding, so I was a copywriter and a strategist, and I worked for digital agencies and I worked for a lot of brands through the years. Writing brand books, trying to find out where they had gone astray, brands that were sort of struggling a little bit. I think through that work, I gained a perspective on what I thought a good company looked like, talked like, acted like. At some point, I moved from the agency side to the media side and I was working at a digital media company, and that's where I met Dave Heath, my co-founder in Bombas, and we sort of cooked up the idea when we were working together way back then in 2011. Stephanie: Cool. Why did you guys think, I want to start a sock company? Did you both want to start this or did one have to pitch to the other? Randy: Yeah. Well, I don't think we thought of it as a pitch. We were friends and we were both very entrepreneurial in our outlook. Our families were entrepreneurs. We just, I think, had that same point of view on the world, and we liked the idea of maybe starting a business one day. We weren't actively writing things on a whiteboard and crossing off a list, but we would just talk about things and the business landscape at the time. It wasn't, we need to get this done this year, we were just having a regular day, and Dave was on Facebook, and he saw a campaign that the Salvation Army had been doing with Hanes. Randy: The Salvation Army, they had a quote in there that said socks are the most requested clothing item in homeless shelters. We were having lunch, and Dave said, "I saw this quote, did you have any idea about socks and homeless shelters?" And I said, "No, and I don't even understand why." We started to call around to some shelters in New York, and we were talking to people and we just realized that there was a real problem here. If you're living on the streets, a fresh pair of socks, foot hygiene means a lot. You might be walking more and have less frequent opportunities to wash your clothing. And then, shelters don't accept used socks for donations. So they were always having a shortage and it was always a big need and people would have to buy new socks and then donate them. Randy: People just tended to donate the things that they had worn or gently used. We really just wanted to help solve the problem. So, we started thinking about that, we started buying socks and donating them. Then, I guess just the way our minds work, we started to think there's probably an opportunity here. We looked at the success that Toms had been having and saw their one-for-one business model, and Warby Parker had just launched at the time and they had a charitably inclined business. We thought, maybe this business model really works for this product. It really maps well to it. Just because this is a product that people really aren't allowed to donate on their own. Randy: Then we started to think about socks and we just got obsessed with socks. We were like, socks just haven't changed in 50 years. Athletic socks look the same. They're cardboard, they're white or they're black. Even if you're somebody who cares tremendously about the things that you wear, where they come from, what you're putting on your body, the last thing you get to generally is socks. We thought there was an opportunity to make something really great, to really improve on a product that people take for granted, and that are afterthought in the consumer market, to help solve a problem that's an afterthought sort of for shelters and organization. Randy: Just like, if we can make something really great, we'll sell a lot, and if we sell a lot, we can donate a lot, and if we donate a lot, we can help solve a problem in the community where we work and live. It's easy to look back and say that, but at the time, it just took a while for us to wrap our head around this and think about it as a business idea. Stephanie: Very cool. I will say that I'm definitely someone who had socks as an afterthought, but I will say when I tried on Bombas, I was like, this is a whole different level of socks. I didn't realize I cared about them at all. I would normally just get black ones and just be like, whatever, as long as they're short, I don't care. Then I tried them on, I'm like, oh, these are game changing. They're amazing. Randy: Thank you. I think that's what we're going for. We want to change the way people think about socks, and make it hard for you to go back once you put on a pair of Bombas. Stephanie: Oh yeah. You can't. In the early days, when you were starting out, how did you think through the economics of developing the one to one program? Randy: The early days for us, that meant making sure that we could, from the start, bake into the unit economics, the donation pair, so that no matter what anyone said along the path, if we were raising money, if we were building the business, that there's nothing anybody could do because we were ironclad around the donation model. We built it into the covenant of the business. We've codified it. It's just something no one could ever really take away, but just focusing on it from the beginning and making sure that we could afford to do it, as a for profit enterprise, was a big early step. We've grown and we've gotten smarter about it and we've built a big network of giving inside of the company. It's all gotten bigger and better, but it really started with that idea. Randy: I think that's the right question. Did you think about it from the beginning? Yes, or else we wouldn't have been able to do it and maybe somewhere along the road, we would have compromised, but it's been a big part of how we've talked about the business and the brand and a big part of the success of the company, and having a great product on the side for the consumer allows us to afford the development costs of the donation product, which is an important thing to make sure we're making a product for people who are experiencing homelessness or living on the street. All of these things have been really thought out from the start. Stephanie: It's amazing. I think I saw that you reached profitability by year three. What does your revenue look like now, annually? Randy: Well, we don't typically share exact revenues like numbers, but it's a multiple hundred million dollar a year company at this point and profitable. Stephanie: Very cool. Yeah, I think that's what I saw, but I wanted it to come from you instead of me saying what I think that I read. Randy: Yeah. You read correctly. Yeah, so profitability, I think you're seeing a lot of direct to consumer companies and Ecommerce companies now really starting to think about profitability in this moment. The way that people are raising money and what companies who are handing out money have been looking for, it's forcing a lot of companies who've raised a lot of money and had profitability as a down the road kind of goal, shift how they're operating and shift how they're thinking. I see that, and I've talked to founders who were dealing with this and it seems really painful. I think for us, it was a goal from the beginning. We wanted to have a really solid conservative financial outlook, get to profitability quickly, build a business for the long-term, for the long haul. Randy: We want our grandkids to be wearing Bombas. That's one of our core values. I think that plays into the way that we built the business from the unit economics and financial side of things as well, and the way that we approach marketing, which obviously as you know, as a direct to consumer company, is the hot topic, of course. Stephanie: Yep. Were there any issues that you ran into along the way? Because scaling to over a hundred million revenue is probably pretty tough. Is there any lessons you learned along the way or things that you're like, ooh, we did this great, or we maybe should have done this a bit different? Randy: I think the number one lesson is about focus. Know what you do really well, know why your company exists, why your product deserves to exist in the world, and then focus on doing that well, focus on telling the same story over and over and over again. Whenever we've been able to really focus on that product on the donation, on the sort of foundational elements of the business, that's when we've done the best, and that's when the company has grown really well. When we've gotten distracted by, hey, let's try this pop-up retail idea, or let's advertise in this new place that is unproven, but seems good for this one specific reason, and it's taken our focus away from the things that we do best, that's where we've had the most trouble. I think that's been the big theme for us in the early years, is just focus has really led to growth, and it's where we've had the most success as a company. Stephanie: Very cool. When thinking about the first conversion or a brand new customer, do you think the social good aspect of the business sells the product initially? Because it's pretty hard to convey how good the socks are on the website. Randy: Yeah, it is. It's hard until you, I guess, you try them on, and we just want to get as many socks on feet as possible. But yeah, there has been a constant debate at Bombas since day one about what comes first and the way we talk about the company. The quality of the product comfort or the mission, our commitment to give back to the community. Some people come for the product and stay for the mission, and some people will come for the mission and stay for the product. I don't think we've solved that debate. We poll our customers and we're surveying people and we're thinking about this a lot, but I think the thing that works the most in marketing for prospects, people who haven't heard about our company, is talking about comfort, is talking about the quality of the product. Randy: The mission definitely helps complete a sale, helps with the follow on sales, and our customers, people who've already made purchases, expect us to close the loop, report back on how we're doing with the donations that we promise we would do on their behalf. That storytelling element helps us with both sides of it. It's just about where we show up with the mission and where we show up with the product marketing, at what time in the life cycle. It's an ongoing debate and we stay nimble around it, but those are still the two elements, and they have been since the beginning that show up the most in our communication. Stephanie: Cool. The other thing I saw that you all had was the happiness guarantee, which I was like, how do they remain profitable? Because one of the things I think I saw in there was, if your kid outgrows a sock in a year, which I have three kids, so I'm like, that could happen quick, or if your dog chews up a sock, which our dog, [Tossy 00:11:14], does that every day, how do you make sure that people aren't abusing those rules? How did you come up with that happiness guarantee? Randy: I think for us, we think about the great companies that we all like to work with, or shop at, or interact with. A common theme is that they have great customer service and they stand by their products. We wanted to make that a hallmark of Bombas. In the early days, Dave would take all of the calls that would come in to our phone number on his cell phone. So we would be out talking about the business or in a bar, back when there were bars. He would get a phone call and go outside, and an hour later, he'd come back and he'd just talk to a customer. I think that idea of just making sure that we're taking care of the people who are spending money with us, that led to the idea of the happiness guarantee. Randy: We have our internal customer service team, they're called the customer happiness team, and we've also, just sort of connecting it back to the business, to get back to your question, people who interact with our customer service team have two times the lifetime value of customers who don't. We're trying to turn issues that people have into positive experiences, and that turns people into bigger longterm customers, because then they trust us, they trust that we take care of them. Sure, there are people who try and abuse the policy, but that's far outweighed by the number of people who are just trying to solve a problem, or get to the bottom of something and want things to be right and don't want to have to jump through a lot of hoops to get there. Randy: For us, the good of having that really strong internal team to deal with our customers and to respond to problems, and yes, to make sure that if your kid outgrows the sock that's expensive or that ... We'll be there to grow along with you. All those things are ... we just want peace of mind as people go through the process and think about, should I be making this purchase right now? Stephanie: That's great. How do you train your customer happiness team? Because I feel like it takes a certain kind of person to be peppy and to, like you said, have a higher lifetime value with the people who interact with that team. What kind of training process do they go through? Randy: It's pretty rigorous. I think Dave passed on the mentality of our customer happiness team to the person who originally ran the program, and he's still running that team. I think, like almost everything at Bombas, when we have something that we want to do and we feel like we've reached the limit of how we can handle it ourselves, we try and bring in people who are way smarter than we are and have the right skillset, and really focused on hiring great people. It also helps that, people who come to work at Bombas, tend to want to give back to the community and are inclined to support and work for a company that cares about that as well. Then, we in turn, care tremendously about our company and the company culture, and all of those things lead us to find, I think, the people who are right for the roles and write for the company and speak to those core values, and that's how it works with the happiness team. Randy: They're trained, not only on what to say in the situations that come up most often, but how to deal with Bombas customers, how to put the extra spin on it. It's about, I guess, just that level of care. Our whole team really appreciates that customer service team, and we make sure that they know how appreciated and important they are as the first line of defense for our customers internally as a team. I think giving them the support and love that they need as the team that has to deal with a lot, and has to clean up mistakes when they happen and make sure that everybody's happy, and then understanding how we want them to communicate with the world as a brand. The way that we talk in an ad versus a video, versus on the phone with the customer, versus internally, none of that should really be different, right? We're trying to be really consistent as a brand. Stephanie: How do you create that consistency? Because I can see as a company grows, and I've seen this happen before, where you start developing silos and the teams are kind of off doing their own thing, maybe trying their own marketing campaigns, and it starts getting a little bit chaotic. How have you kept a consistent culture and feel at Bombas? Randy: Yeah. We're not immune to some of the issues that you just brought up. But just recognizing it, being honest about it, trying to get ahead of those things, and focusing on that core messaging and communicating well internally. We're also at the stage where we're really thinking about planning and processes as a company as we've grown to 150 employees and being remote, how we interact and how we work cross departmentally. Those types of things are at the front of mind right now. We're hearing it from our team, we listen to ideas, we bring in people to help us. I think we're laser focused on making sure that some of those breakdowns and that siloed work doesn't get the best of us. We have seen that and we're working on it. Randy: I think any company that starts off operating like that, when you have five or 10 people, that would be overbearing, and I don't think the type of people who end up coming to a company that small would appreciate that, but as you grow, you have to adjust and you have to get ahead of it so that people keep that same feeling of freedom in terms of thought, in terms of how they can innovate in their work and get things done, and expectations around their jobs, all that stuff becomes really important to be more documented, to have tighter processes so that people feel freer to do the things that they love to do. That's what we're trying to work on, but it's not an easy thing. Stephanie: Yeah. It's definitely a tough juggle. If someone were to join and they're employee number five, and then all of a sudden, there's 150 employees, it's like, okay, well, I used to be able to do everything at the company, and now you want me to shrink my role. A tough thing to work through with employees. Randy: Yeah. It's a challenge. You want to retain the people who made Bombas, Bombas, but you also want to make sure that people are growing in the right way, and there are opportunities, and the new people who come in at certain levels understand what they're supposed to do and what everybody else is supposed to do. You just start to get into these things that maybe you thought you would never have to deal with if you started a company, but as it grows, this is what it looks like. Stephanie: Yup. Were there any resources that you leveraged along the way when you were growing quickly, when you were like, I need to learn this or I need to figure this out, or companies that you were watching to learn from? Randy: Yeah. I think that's been our mindset since the beginning. Just from our early advisory board, just to fill in the gaps, to hires that we've made, the things that we tend to lean on are people. Dave and I are like, we don't know the first thing about performance marketing, when we started this business. We need to bring in somebody who's an expert in that, or at least, have somebody on our advisory board who can help answer questions for us as we grow that until we have that right person, or to help us find the right person. That's been a big part of how we've grown this business, is leaning on our network to reach out to people, to ask questions, to make good hires, and then watching other D2C companies and having a good dialogue with the other D2C companies who have grown to our size and larger. That's been really helpful as well. Randy: Then you also think about companies like Toms. They've been really helpful to us, in terms of watching out for certain mistakes that they've made along the way with their donation aspects of their business. They've been really open with us about those things and helping us avoid them. We try and do the same with other companies who reach out and want advice from us as well. Stephanie: Very cool. How did you think about building out the website? What kind of things did you want to have on there to make sure that you kept with the brand story, but also, sold enough to be able to be profitable to keep the model working? Randy: It's a great question. The idea of what a website looks like when it's your only store is so important. You want to have that right blend of storytelling, but you want people to be able to breeze through the checkout process the right way. That's been a journey for us. I don't think it's anywhere near where we want it to be, but I would think that you would ask any direct to consumer company and they have a lot they want to do, and their technology roadmap is pretty long, and that's part of it. You're always building, you're always tweaking, you're always improving. You're looking at the data and you're making changes to just make it better. Randy: In the beginning, at some point we have to replatform. But just the processes along the way to get us from where we started to where we are now, to where we're heading, it takes a lot of care and attention. Like I said, when it's your only store, I think it's your job and your duty to make sure that it works and operates really well. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. How did you know it was time to replatform and what was that experience like? Randy: I knew it was time when we just had so many issues with managing traffic or the backend or uploading content. It was wrong. We launched the business and the website in 2013. Since 2013, there've been a lot of changes in technology and the way that Ecommerce works and looks. If you went back to a site from 2013, as a 2020 consumer, you wouldn't last a minute. You'd be out. Stephanie: You'd bounce right away. Randy: You'd bounce. There was a lot more tolerance then, but less people using Ecommerce because the experience just wasn't great. I think, if you go back even further, and I think about this a lot, if you were starting a direct to consumer company in 2009 and you didn't have a lot of money that you would raise, building the website itself would have been prohibitively expensive for most brands, for most companies. But if you managed to get it up, the marketing was basically free. There was no algorithm that was holding your content back. If you had a Facebook page, whatever you posted, everyone who followed you with anyone who shared it, and anyone who got added to your page, not some of these early companies, resources to build a site were able to build huge businesses. Randy: But then, as it shifted, now, if you want to launch a direct to consumer company, the technology is basically free, getting that website up, but the marketing is prohibitively expensive. It's totally flipped. We just happened to launch, I think, in a sweet spot where the technology had gotten more affordable and the marketing was still affordable, but it was not free like it had been in 2009, and it wasn't very hard or challenging environment like it is now. We sort of had time to figure out both pieces, and we had runway to figure out the marketing and we could afford the technology. Then that got a lot better, and just have to stay on top of and ahead of all those things. Stephanie: That makes sense. To focus on the website piece first, and then we can jump into the marketing aspect, so the website, was there any like big fundamental changes that you made where you're like, this made the biggest difference when it came to sales and conversions and even getting traffic in the first place? Anything that you remember that you change where you're like this had the biggest improvement for us or a couple of things? Randy: Site speed, I think is the number one thing. As a person who comes from the creative side of the business, a copywriter or strategist, there's nothing that I could do from my previous job or as a brand person that would make the improvement of one second of site speed in terms of how something loads or how it acts. Just sort of getting over some of the sort of shiny objects into saying, oh, if we change the copy here, or what if we put this video here, or had this type of look on our site? If you make your site faster, it will convert better. Things like that, just understanding the fundamental way things move and what people want from you, layering the other stuff on top then becomes just sauce and becomes fun. Then you can start to have incremental changes and things that work. But I think, just looking at site speed, if you want one good thing, that's where I would start, as dry as that might be. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's a great one. Was there anything affecting the site speed that you were surprised by? Randy: I think the way that you manage and load images, obviously has a big effect on that. Your product architecture and understanding Randy: I think some of these things you don't realize when you're starting out, but the way things are organized, hosted, served, there's sort of best in class ways of doing that now. But if you want to have your variants of your products perform a certain way, or if you want to create bundles in a different way than most companies do it, then all of a sudden, you're creating ... you could be creating extra things that are weighing your site down, even though you think ... it helps you organize the things that you want to sell the way that you see them in your mind. It doesn't always benefit you because maybe you're slowing things down. If people are bouncing before they're even seeing it, then what's the point? Again, this isn't my area of expertise, but these are the things that you learn along the road when you're doing everything in a business when there's five people. Stephanie: Yeah, I think that backend infrastructure piece is hard to focus on in the beginning because you're so excited about the product and the marketing, and like you said, getting good copywriting and telling your friends that you don't really think about how to set up, maybe the data and the backend piece to actually create a good performing website. Randy: Totally. Listen, like I said, my background was in branding. I was a copywriter. I think we built this business around the brand because it's, in many ways, a commodity that you turn into a brand. You do that by being really consistent and having good storytelling and build a moat through brand. But none of that exists if you don't get the infrastructure piece right, and you can't get to that. I talked to founders who were starting companies, and they're so focused on hiring the right creative agency or branding agency, they'll put together the right logo, and it's just not the right place to start in my mind, even though I love that work and I love thinking about that for companies and thinking about how you communicate to the world and understanding why your product exists, but without that fundamental infrastructure piece, no one's going to care about that other piece. It's just maybe a little bit of a sad truth for creative side of business people. Stephanie: That's okay. Got to hear it sometimes. Randy: That's right. Stephanie: One thing I saw that you guys were doing was that you were investing in a data science team and embedding more data elements into the customer journey. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and how you knew it was the right time to bring on a team like that? Randy: How will you know it's the right time is that when you start to ask questions that you can't answer, and nobody internally can answer it. That's the truth, and when one person ... Randy: You also know when you're having a debate about something in the business and somebody is able to pull out data or a statistic related to what you're talking about, and the conversation ends because it's hard to argue with the data. When you see that and you've thought about it the other way, and you're not trying ... You can't convince data, right? I know [crosstalk] manipulated. Stephanie: There's no argument there. Randy: That's right. Then you sort of think, this is really valuable, and rather than trying to think about something from the perspective of, I think it should work this way, you want something to show you how it should work, and you want to be able to interpret data the right way and be able to use it to your advantage to build out a strategy, rather than just making assumptions and going off of somebody who has the most experience or who has the most seniority. I think companies get in trouble when they just rely on the loudest voice in the room or somebody who's the most persuasive at arguing rather than bring data as a voice into the room for decision making. Randy: I think it started to creep in when we would understand a little bit what we don't know, and then have debates that were a little bit out of our depth and we didn't have the right people. We didn't really have that skill in the beginning. We knew that it would be a big part of this business, even back in 2013. We just knew that it wasn't the first thing we were going to invest in. It just sort of came naturally to the time. We were always excited about the idea of what a data science team could bring to the table for a sock company. There was a point where you almost can't operate without it anymore. Stephanie: Yeah. That's awesome. What does it look like now having that team, and what kind of metrics are you guys paying most attention to? Randy: A lot of the metrics are the same. You'll see a lot of Ecommerce companies paying attention to, but what the team looks like, and what's interesting is, now that we have the team in place, getting other teams to work with that team the right way is the key, and getting our directors and decision makers accustom to partnering with the data team, to help surface solutions to problems and present them and work, it goes back to some of the work that we're doing, trying to figure out the processes and cross departmental work and to avoid some of the siloed behavior that you brought up earlier. A big part of that is the data team and how they can help support. There's support teams within an organization, there's execution teams, and that's very much a support team, and they love answering questions for teams, and some teams use the data and analytics team more than others. Randy: We just try and be really loud about it at our all hands meetings and present back case studies so that people understand how they could better use that team. It's a process and something that was getting better all the time, but you just sort of have to make it central to how you operate as a company. That doesn't happen overnight. It's a big change. We've been working on that for the last six months to a year in a major way. I think it's really paying off for us. Stephanie: Very cool. Yeah, I definitely have seen business intelligence teams in the past struggle with being able to create a partnership with the product team or the engineers. I like the idea of showing a case study. So instead of pushing it on a team member, it's like, well, here's what another team did. Look how great this turned out, and encourage them to want to partner with that team even more. Randy: Yeah. You're making decisions, how many times a year should we ... We're not a promotional company. But if you wanted to ask a question, like how often should we do a sale? There's logical times of the year when you think that should happen, and the merchandising team might have a different perspective than the marketing team, and using the data team to think about the effect on customers or prospects. There's so much information that could help steer a decision like that, that is major to the business. Those are the types of things where you start to see a lot of power in the team like that. Stephanie: Yeah. We're talking about data. I want to also shift into the aspect of transparency. I read that you and your co-founder both had subpar experiences with transparency at previous companies you were at. I wanted to hear, how do you think about being ... Well, first tell me the story. I want to know all the nitty gritty details, and also how did that influence your culture now? Randy: Sure. I don't know, the cliff notes is that was a major influence on our culture now, but we had the experience together. Like I mentioned, we worked together at a previous company, and at that company, the person who ran the company brought amazing people together, and there was a great team, and the work was fulfilling and we learned a lot, but it was really hard to have conversations around career growth or compensation, or how well is the company doing? Or data. One person tended to hold on to decisions for so long that it was counterproductive and it was demotivating for people. You felt nervous to even ask a question, and nobody understood their stock options. You would ask questions about it and you'd get them response months later. Randy: That sort of fogginess around the things that people really care about when they're going to work at a smaller company, it was really hard for us. We knew no matter what company we started together, building a culture of transparency, where people really understood the why behind the business, the core values, the financial performance, what their ownership meant, and a culture of being able to ask questions, that was hallmark from the beginning. We just wanted to create the company that we would have loved to have worked at and centering our employees in the business, and thinking about them just as much as we do our bottom line. Our theory was that it would make the bottom line better. People would be more inclined to give something beyond their capacity or to continue to learn or to grow if they felt safe and supported at the company. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, that definitely is a good way to build a company from the ground up, and maybe not fun to have that experience, but hey, you learn from the best people you work for and the worst people you work for. Randy: Absolutely. I wouldn't trade that experience because that's what led to the culture that we've built at Bombas. I think, if you talk to our employees and the way they think about it, we're maybe more proud of that than anything else that we built in this company. Did I give you enough nitty gritty details? Is that good enough? Stephanie: Yeah, I was hoping for a little more drama, but I'll take it. That was good. Randy: There was plenty of drama. We can talk about that offline. Yeah. Stephanie: That sounds good. Earlier, I mentioned, I also wanted to hit on your marketing a little bit. What kind of channels do you focus on? What are you seeing success in right now in any new channels that you're excited about? Randy: Yeah, for us, listen, we're a direct to consumer company that started in 2013. Can you guess what our number one marketing channel is? Stephanie: Facebook? Randy: Bingo. Right. Okay. I think we still see a lot of success there, and while it might've been a way larger percentage of our marketing mix in the early days, and we've diversified away from that a fair amount, it's still an important driver for us. In the beginning, in the early days, we would create a video that we didn't even intend to be an ad, just a thank you to our customers, and then eventually it gets turned into an ad on Facebook that's seen a hundred million times. Leaning into the trends and trying to see around the corner at Facebook. now working closely with that team. has really helped grow our business. Randy: One of the things that we have had since the beginning is ROI positive or breakeven on first purchase. We're not over our skis on Facebook spend, while lot of companies are to just to try and build up their customer base. For us, it was important to really be disciplined. We knew that if we were going to grow our budget and grow our company, and we were a really marketing led company, we'd have to diversify away. So, Hello Podcasts, radio, direct mail, TV. Those are all big parts of the business now, and they're all growing probably at a faster rate as a percentage at least of the business than our online ads on Facebook. But search has grown for us tremendously in the last year and a half as our brand has grown and recognition has grown. Randy: Some of that comes from broader marketing, like on TV, and then people are searching Bombas by name, and we can lean into search advertising and that works better. Some of these things are just about timing. Yeah, we still have a tremendous success sort of trialing things out online. We've never used a creative agency. Everything is internal at Bombas, so all of our creative direction and the marketing team and the partnership between the creative team and the brand teams and the marketing team operates as an internal agency. We like places where we can test things, test creative, test lines, test different cuts of videos, see what works, preview it, and then build it out into bigger campaigns that could work across all those different places that we talked about earlier that I mentioned. Randy: I don't know, that's sort of more of an overview than what's working now. But if I think about the last few months, when everyone's at home with COVID, people who were still able to afford to be buying things right now online are looking for comfort, and socks have done well in this moment. On the other side of things, we talk a lot about our efforts in the community and how we've adopted and been able to help out in this moment above and beyond how we normally do. That's also something that people want to hear about. For us, it's the combination of the product and the storytelling and the marketing mix, and making sure that we're nimble enough in all three of those places to make adjustments as we build and grow. Stephanie: That's awesome. Do you find that you have a community also, because it seems like with your story and your brand, you would have this community of people who want to lift you up and talk about you and spread the word organically without you really having to push too hard? Randy: Yeah, absolutely. Community is a big word at Bombas. Something that has been since the beginning. I think about the community of giving partners that we have. In the beginning, when we wanted to donate the socks, you buy a pair and we donate a pair on your behalf. We didn't know how to do that. We started with one giving partner that would accept socks from us, and we learned a lot from them. Then we built a specific sock that we donate, that's more tailored to the needs of the homeless community. Since then, now we have 3,500 giving partners across all 50 States. These are the people who are working really hard on the front lines helping out that community and doing what they can to serve their communities, and our job is to support them. Randy: That is a big community. We get a lot of feedback from them. Then you have our customers who really care tremendously about the product and the donation aspect of it, and they're telling our story on their behalf. You mentioned earlier about one of the keys, I think for us is consistency. The more you're telling the same story in different nuanced ways, the easier you make it for other people to tell your story on your behalf, and that word of mouth marketing, or letting people explain to somebody else when they're having dinner that, hey, they just got these socks and they're really excited about them. Randy: They donate for every pair they sell, and they also just happen to change the way they feel about putting on a pair of socks in the morning, and they feel more supported and comfortable in their daily life. That's a pretty amazing thing that you can get somebody talking about socks at dinner. I think all of this stuff is related, making sure the messaging is tight, keeping that internal, having a marketing team that's nimble and always trying new to new and different areas, and then having that product that's really high quality to support all of that, to give you the confidence to go out and sell something. Stephanie: That's great. How do you keep things organized? Because I'm thinking about, you have all these community organizations that you're mentioning to do the one to one program, then you've got your own product that you need to focus on. How do you make sure that you're spending the right amount of time with each area? Randy: You don't want to be playing whack-a-mole, I guess. You want to be seeing ahead of things a little bit. There's a certain element of making sure ... You start to see when some friction comes into a certain side of the business and you need to spend a little bit more effort getting your go-to-market process ironed out, or on the technology side, if we don't install an ERP process in the next X amount of time, we could see a lot of trouble. I think that starts with a leadership team that communicates really effectively, often open, and is really humble, and then syncing up on our company roadmap, and making sure that when something does seem like it needs a little bit more attention, that people spend their time on it. Randy: That's the idea. I guess some of that is also thinking about, and talking to companies that are a year or two ahead of us, and have been through some of these sort of growing pains at the same times, and looking for the pitfalls that they went through and trying to get ahead of it rather than to have to be reactionary. Stephanie: The D2C community, it seems like they're very helpful with each other, and you just mentioned, looking to someone who's maybe two to three years ahead of you, how have you utilized that community and leaned into it to get advice or build friendships or mentorship? Randy: Yeah, it's a great community. For us, we're a pretty open group. We talked about transparency and communication as pillars of Bombas from the beginning. We want to help out other companies who are coming up behind us, and then we've looked to other direct to consumer companies, and other, generally, just good companies to try and help us out. You ask the question and you find that people are generally willing to say like, yeah, this is how we did this, or connect with this person on our team. They know that at some point they'll have a question for you. We've always been just asking questions outside of the organization. It's the same approach with hiring. We want to bring in people who are smarter than we are. Randy: We want to ask the questions to the companies who are ahead of us. You don't get the answer if you don't ask the question. It's just an important thing, and I'm not sure why this group of companies especially is more open or collaborative, seeming than other groups that you've been in, but maybe it's this generation of founders and the way that we grew up and the interest in community, and the expectation from customers that our company just can't look the way it used to look or act the way it used to act, and it has to have more of a purpose. Maybe that just drives us all to be a little bit more open and a little bit more flexible and a little bit less guarded about some of the things that we're doing. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. It also just seems like there's so many opportunities. It's not like you're going to be talking to someone who's doing exactly what you're doing. There's just so many opportunities and so many things to start and try that I'm sure that also helps with people wanting to share and show how they did things. Randy: Yeah. I don't really feel competitive with anyone in that space. In some ways, those companies, you could see them as more of our competition than another sock company, because we're competing for the attention of people online. It doesn't matter what you're selling. If somebody else is taking away time that somebody might spend thinking about Bombas, then I guess that's competition, but approaching it, from a lens of collaboration and like, if they can help us know we can help somebody else, it's just the way we've done it. I'm not sure it's right, or it does feel like it's helped us. It is nice to feel like there is a community around this. I like to think about these companies, I like the community of the businesses. Randy: I'd rather be lumped in with these companies, as a community of people that can help each other with the business side of things, than on the brand side of things. I'm wary of being one of the direct to consumer brands out there, because I don't feel like that set of companies always looks the best or the type of press that is out there is always positive. For me, it's just about the people running it and the people at these companies, and making sure that people in our teams are connecting to people who've done something that they maybe don't know how to do perfectly. Stephanie: All right. Before we jump into a few higher level Ecommerce themes, I wanted to hear what is the best day in the office look like for you? Randy: Oh, the office. Stephanie: How do you walk home when you're like snapped in and you're like, that was a good day. Randy: Remind me of what an office is. Stephanie: Okay. What's the best day from your bedroom look like? Randy: Well, okay. It is interesting to think about at home versus at the office. The office is a big part of who we were as a company and getting everybody together and that spirit of community that comes into it, and being able to sit down with someone face to face. We do miss that. Although the teams are really productive and risen to the challenge of working remotely. The best day feels like when something goes well beyond what you expected and teams are celebrating each other and recognizing each other. Also, when we have a speaker from one of our giving partners to give us perspective on what's happening in our work life and why maybe it's not the most important thing in our life and in our world. Randy: When all of those things are kind of clicking together, I think people remember why they work at this company, what's truly important, how they can impact it, and then the collaboration and the spirit that comes along with it. Those are the best days for me, when you're reminded of what's important and how that impacts the company. Stephanie: I think it's good to document those days too. I really like, there's a coffee shop, Philz, right up the street, and they have all these pictures of their employees and just having fun and team meetings they have. It's on the way when you're headed to the bathroom, but it's really fun. I would think as an employee, but also as a customer to see and remember like what it felt like that day and how excited this person looks when they're receiving this award. Because it seems like it could be easy to forget when something's moving so quick. Randy: Totally. I love that idea. I also think about the times when we all got to volunteer together. Now we tend to volunteer in smaller groups which is obviously still great. We have sign up sheets for all of our volunteer opportunities and you have to pounce on them to get the spots that you want. I think that speaks a lot about the culture of the company, but some of the photos you look back on from those moments, or those days when the team feels really connected, those are really exciting days. Stephanie: Yep. All right. A higher level Ecommerce question. What do you think the future of online shopping looks like, like in 2025? Randy: Ah, like when we're all driving around in flying cars, what does Ecommerce look like? Stephanie: Yup. I'm on Mars. Where are you? Randy: I might be on Mars too. Do you want to have a rival colony? I'm down or maybe we have a collaborative colony. Stephanie: Okay. Oh, I'm down. Maybe, we'll see. Randy: We'll see. Okay. All right. We'll see. We'll figure it out then. Stephanie: It depends if you accept my LinkedIn request, I guess, then I'll know. I'll be like, is it any cooler now? Randy: Wait, that's how we judge if you're cool, is if you accept our LinkedIn request? Stephanie: I just made it up, but we'll see. I might have higher criteria afterwards. Randy: Okay. All right. We'll put a pin in that. I don't know what the future of Ecommerce looks like, I got to tell you, I know the percentage of people who get comfortable shopping online, that's only going to go up. I know that companies are going to invent new ways to make it easier for people to buy their product, to review their product, to look at it. I think ease is the name of the game. In a world that's going to be more and more competitive, the way to stand out is going to change. All I know is it's not going to look like it looks right now, and having the attitude that, even if you're doing something right, that the way to succeed in a few years, it's going to be a different version of right, then you'll be okay. Stephanie: Yep. I love that. All right. Before I move into the lightning round, anything that you wanted to share that we missed, where you're like, I really wish you asked this, Stephanie, and you just didn't? Randy: No, like I said, I'm here for you guys. You want to talk about Mars and infrastructure, then great. Whatever you want to talk about. Stephanie: Mars and the moon, that'll be the next podcast. Anyone who wants to sponsor it, hit us up. I don't know what we're going to talk about, but we're going to need help to figure it out. All right. Lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer, Randy. Are you ready? Randy: I'm ready. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your reading list? Randy: Can we just start that over? Sorry. Stephanie: Yep. What's next on your reading list? Randy: Up next on my reading list is the Mike Nichols book. I'm not sure what it's called, but I'm excited to read it. Stephanie: What's it about? Randy: Its about the director, Mike Nichols, and his life. Stephanie: Cool. We'll have our producer, Hillary, will find the link to that and everyone can go explore it there. Randy: I don't tend to read business books. I know that they could be helpful, but I'm more interested in people, humanity, fiction, novels. Stephanie: Yep. Cool. Any podcasts you listen to? Randy: Yeah. There's a great podcast I listened to about words called The Allusionist, Allusionist with an A. Love that podcast. I have a whole list, but let's just do one. Stephanie: Yeah. We'll check that out. Any hobbies that you're really getting into these days? Randy: Hobbies that I'm really getting into. I really like this sport called paddle tennis. It's not pickleball, it's not ping pong. It's called paddle tennis. If you look it up, it's like a fast version of tennis. You play with a paddle and a tennis ball, but you poke a hole in it. There's like a really small, but passionate community around the sport. It's really fun. Stephanie: Do you play on a tennis court? Randy: You play on a small tennis court. It's basically the service boxes and two-ish foot baseline, and a net. You serve under hand, and you can't serve [inaudible 00:52:55], and you poke a hole on the tennis ball so it doesn't fly everywhere, but it still bounces. It acts and feels like tennis, but like a faster version. It's really cool. You can play in New York. There's courts in New York in StuyTown and Peter Cooper Village, and there's courts in Venice Beach in California. Those are kind of the two centers in the US. It's not a very big popular sport. Stephanie: We will have to bring it up to Palo Alto. I will be the one do that. That would be my initiative over the next year. Randy: Do it. Stephanie: All right. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be? Randy: Oh man. If I was going to have a podcast, wow, I don't know. Do we need another podcast? Do we need a podcast from me? Stephanie: Yes, we do. Randy: Maybe it would just be rants. Just do like a short rant every week. I don't know. Stephanie: I like that. Hey, that seem to do well sometimes. Stephanie: That's okay. All right, this one's slightly harder so you might have to think. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Randy: I think the thing that will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year is the timing on reopening the economy and stores and retail. If people can't go to stores or don't feel comfortable going to stores, they're going to, inevitably, accelerate their comfort level with shopping online. We already see that happening. I think it's just going to push that trend line even further forward. I'm for one, excited about it. I think the biggest, biggest test for this will be this Q4 and the holiday season, and to see what percentage of shoppers are shopping on Ecommerce and what they're demanding of Ecommerce retailers that they weren't a year ago when the percentages were smaller. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. Great answer. Randy, it's been a blast having you on the show. Where can people find out about you and Bombas? Randy: You can find out about Bombas at bombas.com, and everywhere else you would expect, B-O-M-B-A-S. That's it. Thank you for listening and thanks for having me. Stephanie: Yeah. Thanks so much. It's been fun. See you next time. Randy: All right. See you next time.  

You may not know exactly what Soft-Tex is, but chances are you’ve seen or even own a Soft-Tex product. That’s because Soft-Tex is a B2B2C company that provides products to retailers like Walmart, Amazon, Bed Bath & Beyond, Macy’s, and many more. The company specializes in sleep products, like pillows, mattress toppers, mattresses, mattress pads, or anything else you might need in your bedroom to help you get a good night’s sleep. But Soft-Tex doesn’t only ship to their retail partners. In recent years the company has upped its Ecommerce and drop-shipping capabilities in an effort to get even more in the lives of consumers. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Taylor Jones, the Vice President of Marketing for Soft-Tex explains how the company is creating a collaborative partnership with retailers while also exploring and consulting in the world of Ecommerce. He explains the ways in which Soft-Tex goes about ensuring successful product launches — including the exact number of reviews he thinks is the sweet spot — why SEO and product-usage videos are the ultimate keys to success, and the need for an Amazon strategy and what that looks like.   3 Takeaways: There is a delicate balance you have to strike when working with retail partners and also selling products D2C. You have to work collaboratively and across multiple channels to ensure that you have the products selling where you want them and not competing against themselves  Amazon is a price-leader, and in order to get any market share, you need to have an Amazon strategy that allows you to live there, while also ensuring that other partners have exclusive access to other products Product reviews and product-usage videos are absolutely essential to achieving a high conversion rate. Generating about 15 reviews and placing a usage video front and center are two strategies to implement to help grow conversions For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. And welcome back to your number one show on all things eCommerce, I'm your host, Stephanie Postles. And today we have Taylor Jones on the show, the VP of marketing and eCommerce at Soft-Tex International. Taylor. Welcome. Taylor: Hey Stephanie, thanks so much for having me. Stephanie: I'm excited to have you here. I'm feeling a little bit sleepy now, thinking about all the nice products you guys have, that are centered around sleep. I'd love for you to dive a bit into what is Soft-Tex International and how did you come to the company? Taylor: We'd love to hook you up first off. Stephanie: Yes, please. Taylor: So at Soft-Tex, we're really serious about sleep and home comfort products. I think for a long time, the company has been a leader in memory foam and cooling technologies and just everything to help you get a better night's sleep and live a comfortable and better life. I came to the company about three years ago. I have deep digital experience, worked for a company called Red Ventures here in Charlotte. Maybe you've heard of them. Then for another company in the call center space, Arise Virtual Solutions, and from some mutual connections found this role at Soft-Tex and started, really owning the eCommerce business for them. And it's blossomed into a larger marketing role, including e-commerce still. Stephanie: That's great. So how do I think about Soft-Tex? Because maybe a normal consumer, maybe hasn't heard of them. So how do I think about, how big the company is, who their partners are, how you guys sell? Tell me a bit about that. Taylor: Soft-Tex is really a B2B, to C company, and Soft-Tex is the entity that would be known to our retail partners. So think about Macy's, Bed Bath & Beyond, J.C. Penney, Walmart, Amazon, the whole gamut of retail, we supply with bedding, pillows, toppers, mattresses, mattress pads, protection, anything that is in the bedroom that you'd sleep on, it would probably make it. Taylor: We have a direct to consumer presence that we work with, bedpillows.com. We also have a robust, drop ship capability. So it's not just, we sell in bulk to a retailer. We do that absolutely, but we do, as a core capability, have drop ship to over 50 partners. Stephanie: Wow. So it seems like there's an interesting mix where, you're trying to market for yourself, you're doing direct to consumer, you have your retail partners. How do you think about managing these relationships and also not cannibalizing yourself at the same time? Taylor: Right. So I would say, our partnership with bedpillows.com, is emerging. It's a delicate balance for folks in our position, because we supply, our retail partners, we absolutely don't want to compete with them. Ultimately those relationships are very important to us and we build custom products. It's a very collaborative process with our brick and mortar retail partners and the branding that that goes into all of our different channels. Soft-Tex we have about five or six national or licensed brands that we supply product under or, or we'll develop product under a private label, to mitigate some of the brand conflicts or sales channel conflicts that may arise with selling our products. Stephanie: Very cool. And are you helping your partners when it comes to digitally marketing, the mattresses, pillows, are you helping improve their eCommerce strategy? Because I could see you having a lot of insights into different brands and their strategies and what they're doing to maybe share that knowledge and help each other out. Taylor: Absolutely. So the role we play on with the eCommerce team is a consultative role in that aspect, in that, we're able to see over the wall, we supply our products to the 50 different partners that I mentioned. So we can see some really interesting things that, maybe somebody over here is doing, in merchandising, assortment, with features, attributes, something cool on the product description page. And we can make that suggestion to someone else who maybe has not done that yet. Stephanie: That's great. So what are some learnings or key things that you see happening on these eCommerce sites where your like, here's some good best practices that anyone could implement or I see this working really well right now, or maybe it wasn't working six months ago. What lessons are you seeing through all these brands that you work with? Taylor: I think the concept of reviews syndication and review seeding is very important. Obviously, authenticity is critical and you don't want to see fake reviews, but when you have a new product, accelerating the process through which consumers can experience the product and write a review and leave a review, such that it exists is social proof, for other customers who see that product, is so important to getting a product off on the good foot. We've seen, in the home comfort space, 10 to 15 reviews, seems to be a sweet spot for a new product introduction to really help accelerate its growth. Stephanie: Completely agree on there. How do you encourage reviews? Taylor: There are review seeding partners out there, those companies that you can do seeding programs with, Bazaarvoice is a big one in our space. They have a really interesting service where you can collect reviews if you have a direct to consumer presence and syndicate those reviews. And they also have a network of folks that exists to, you can nominate your products and folks order it to sample your product. And those reviews can get syndicated out to retailers that, on the flip side are members of the Bazaarvoice syndication network. So we've seen retailers who participate in that, really scale up quickly on our products. Stephanie: Very cool. So they're not really having to do as much of the heavy lifting because essentially a consumer would review a product and that review can be used multiple times. Is that how to think about it? Taylor: Through a seeded review, say we did 10 reviews, those same 10 reviews would appear on Macy's, on J.C. Penney, on Kohl's, all at the same time, versus, if someone visited Macy's and bought the product and reviewed it, obviously that review would be owned by Macy's, and it will show there. So, as much as we can do to help reviews go as many places as possible, that's been very helpful. Stephanie: That makes sense. So when it comes to, I'm thinking about mattresses and buying mattresses, for a while, everyone wanted to lay on them and sit on them and see how they feel. And now with the market evolving, especially with the pandemic and everyone being a little bit more comfortable with ordering online, what shifts have you seen? Do you see consumer expectations increasing, consumer demands increasing on the sellers? What are you seeing happening behind the scenes right now? Taylor: For our products, from basic bedding, so everything non-mattress and the mattress, it's been through the roof. I think, folks want a fresh and clean sleeping environment, especially cleanliness is top of mind. With COVID in fact, Soft-Tex, my company announced a deeper partnership with Thomson Research Associates. They make an anti-microbial technology called Ultra-Fresh, the market is hot right now for all bedding products. And I think, from the customer experience point that you're hitting at, do you need to touch and feel the product in order to feel confident in purchasing it? Certainly bedding is a very tactile and personal experience and the same pillow or mattress that's great for me may not, may not work for you. Right. Taylor: I think we've seen folks through warranties and trial periods that the industry has, particularly on the mattresses, pretty much a hundred nights sleep trial guarantee, in some form or the other is a standard now. But from a pillow or top or other product standpoint, maybe there's not that trial period, but being as descriptive as possible, the images, the copy, using enhanced content and the importance of video is so important. Batched attributes, iconography, to really recreate that story and experience, doing everything you can without the consumer touching the product, and that way, I joke with folks at my company that I have the hardest job, right. I have to convince people to buy something that's highly personal and tactile, that they have never touched prior to receiving it. Stephanie: That's pretty tough. What best practices have you seen around creating videos? Because that's something that a lot of companies are leaning into right now, but especially for, a mattress or something, what are you seeing work when it comes to videos for the products? Taylor: I think the concept of video can take a number of forms. YouTube is the second largest search engine. So, you can do a ton of explainer videos or keyword optimized videos, to try and drum up search traffic to your products. But you can also leverage video, in particular the 30-second to a minute product video, to help drive conversion. And I think, that's been a huge thing that we've seen. The addition of video to product pages has scaled our conversion rate by an incremental 10 or 20%. It's hard to fathom, because typically most retailers merchandise video is the last piece in an image carousel, right? People don't like to read, they want to be told, and be surprised and delighted. Taylor: And so, leveraging that video format in a short, condensing it to 30 seconds, has been really big for us. And I think, stylistically, it's very on brand for us, the videos that we've done. As I mentioned at the top of the podcast, Soft-Tex is a very innovative company with emphasizing technology, cooling, I mentioned antimicrobial. So our videos come off as very techie, with graphics, lower thirds that pop up. So I think, making sure your videos are on brand and authentic to your brand voice, clearly and concisely conveying the product value proposition. In our space, it's really, how are we different than everybody else selling a mattress or a pillow? There's thousands of options. Stephanie: Yep. Are you making the videos for your brand partners, or are they all are using the same one, or are you customizing them where you're like Bed Bath & Beyond, this video works better versus Macy's they have a different clientele and we're going to make a different video for them or are they making their own? Taylor: Absolutely great question, Stephanie. For private label products, or we have some national brands that we offer exclusively to certain retailers, obviously those are customized, and we work with retail partners like Bed Bath & Beyond, and Macy's, on art direction, model considerations, we work with them on developing a storyboard and get it approved by them before we film it. Stephanie: Got it. That makes sense. So the one thing I was thinking about when we were mentioning direct to consumer, how you guys were going about that route right now. I was thinking about a very large mattress brand who I think recently IPOed and a lot of people are talking about their negative unit costs. And I was wondering, how are you guys thinking about that with your direct to consumer strategy? Are you willing to have negative margins to add a new customer, or how do you think about the digital growth around them? Taylor: I think the way we've thought about it in a lot of ways, is in the concept of, getting reviews on Amazon is so critical to helping ramp up. If you're giving a discount or something, that you may be selling your product at a loss initially to help gain those reviews, gain some initial sales traction initially. I think it has to be for a finite period of time, right? That you turn the corner and have a clear path to profitability. You can't just do it indefinitely. Right. But I think that there are definitely values to doing it, in that, you get your brand out there, you get some exposure, user generated content is so powerful right now. I think if the world is telling us anything, the power of social media and viral media, the same can be true for user generated content and reviews. If you get a really good review or a really bad one, people can upload them, they're always going to be there. Right. It's so important. Stephanie: That makes sense. Is there any model that you developed around we're going to, we're okay with going in the negative for this amount of time with this campaign, or is there any models that you build to influences these decisions, around adding new customers? Taylor: In terms of the review thing, it's still an algorithm that we're working out, what's the right quantity of review that moves the needle towards a product being successful. That's mostly in our space, right? When you're syndicating in a retail environment, so products sold across many retailers, because really the review is a key way to optimize, each retailer has its own search engine, right? Now, if you're your own brand, right? Selling direct to the consumer. I think it's a different calculus, you have your own tolerance with whoever's providing your investment. Taylor: If you're going to go negative for a time. What is the strategy? How do you become cashflow positive? In the industry, a lot of these, just e-commerce mattress in a box guys, is really, they're marketing companies if you think about it. There's a lot of articles, a lot of them are made by the same folks in terms of manufacturers and who pours the foam, et cetera. So it's interesting. Stephanie: That's really interesting to think about. I think I have three different brands of mattresses in our house, but I'm pretty sure they're probably all the same or made from the same people. Taylor: Or from the same cloth. Stephanie: I think so. They all feel pretty similar. How do you think about returns, for something as large as a mattress or, I'm thinking about furniture companies and stuff, how have you seen some brands lower their return rates? What are some best practices around them? Taylor: I think for the industry, for the mattress in a box, we've seen return rates average out between 10 and 15%. I would include basically everything in that, including the comfort trials and everything. Right. So, when you're a direct to consumer mattress in a box guy, that has to be factored into your pricing. Some other things that we've seen creative ways to save the sale, a lot of, one of the big complaints with sleep products is, maybe the bed is too firm. Maybe you'd send a topper or something to make the mattress more plush, as a method to save recouping, returning the mattress. Because ultimately, right, wrong or indifferent, in the mattress industry once somebody slept on a bed, you can't resell it. It's just one of those things. People don't don't buy used mattress. Stephanie: Good. All the things I'd never really thought about. So you were just mentioning how... I'm glad that you have to deal with that and not me. So we were talking about how a lot of the brands that maybe we think are unique, maybe are utilizing the same types of underlying materials and things like that. So they're kind similar. I saw that you guys sell on Amazon. Are you ever worried that Amazon could just knock you off and just make a mattress that's so similar, that it's maybe not beneficial to be on there, or what's your reason for selling products on there? Taylor: Well, I think, so many things nowadays, if you're searching for a product, folks don't just begin on Google anymore. There's a large contingent of the population that are Prime subscribers and really begin the product search phase on Amazon. I think you pretty much have to be there to have the share of voice, whether you like it or not. I think, for us, Amazon's a growing partner. Certainly it's hard, we have a lot of rebates and allowances with them, from a margin standpoint and I'm sure you've heard this from many folks. It's hard to find products that, you can be profitable. But, I think brands have to make a decision to have an Amazon strategy. Taylor: It is delicate. Obviously, retailers are very sensitive to being comped on Amazon. So it's a very nuanced delicate road that we walk. We have an assortment that we have on Amazon, but we also offer exclusive products to other channels, that we don't offer to Amazon. Stephanie: Got it. Is there any other advice that you would give when it comes to selling on Amazon, but making sure that it's beneficial, like you said, one idea is keeping exclusive content to where not everything you offer is all on Amazon, but is there anything else that you all do, where you're like, this works well? Taylor: I think, really it's ensuring that you're being thoughtful about your assortment, if you're selling on multiple outlets. We've learned in our experience that Amazon is a price follower. Well, we're a first party vendor. Obviously many of your listeners, maybe third party sellers were there. They set the retail price, but as a first party vendor, we have a wholesale price that we give to Amazon and there are, like I mentioned, rebates and allowances. But ultimately, they then retail it to make a profit or not, in some cases. Taylor: They're pretty aggressive in price scraping and seeing what others are doing and commanding the market share to come to them, if they see a lower price out in the market, they will likely try and beat it. So I think, you just have to be prepared, before you open that flood gate, if that's your strategy, making sure that you're ready to enforce, map or, D inventory Amazon as needed. I think, certainly if you're a third party seller on Amazon, you're in much more control of your destiny in that respect, as you can, you set the retail yourself. Stephanie: That completely make sense. In terms of SEO, I'm thinking it's pretty tricky for you guys to, you want your brands to be seen as leaders, but then you also want yourself to be seen as leaders. What SEO tactics do you all use for yourself and your brands? Taylor: Great question. I totally think, in our space in particular, features and attributes are more important than the brand overall, in terms of the search volume. Obviously, if you build a brand, which obviously we all are in the business of doing, you can build search volume that way, but, most of our SEO strategy exists around, trying to optimize and rank for generic keywords, based on the features and benefits of each product. For us, the brand story and value proposition is more of a conversion factor rather than a volume driver, if you will. We as a company have invested more in building a robust e-commerce interface, to target that non-branded search term versus building, paying money for our brands to be the most searched today. Taylor: That's not to say that, our brands don't have an impressive story and value proposition, but I think, part of that comes into cost, right. A brand that spends a lot in marketing, a direct to consumer mattress that may retail for $1000, queen size, roughly, you have a very similar product that we offer under one of our brands, through Macy's or J.C. Penney, or Walmart, Amazon, that retails for 350 to $400. Is there much difference in the product? I would say they're very similar in terms of features and attributes, but it comes down to advertising and price point, right? Stephanie: So what have you seen works? How do you win? Taylor: I think, again, each retailer is its own search engine and each retailer's algorithm for the sort that they show, when somebody types in a pillow, I'm searching for memory foam pillows or pillows or mattresses, is a little different. They take into effect or into account different factors, all of them leverage the trailing sales history, review quality. So, is your product good? Four stars or better? Are you getting reviews recently? So review count and frequency and recency. And then how does it relate to the query that was searched? Taylor: So, for example, there's a lot of backend keywords that we look to put with our products and we've really gone through and looked to optimize those to make sure that we're calling out things like, if a product is antimicrobial, it is tagged appropriately, or if it's got some certifications or whatever it is, such that, when you're searching on a retailer, if you're typing in the keyword or leveraging a checkbox menu, faceted navigation, that we're optimized to show as much as we can. Stephanie: Got it. So how are you finding new brands who would be willing to work with you on selling your product? Are you marketing to them? Are you approaching them directly, cold email? How do you find new partners in your space? Taylor: It's a great question. A lot of our business is, if you put it into two buckets, hunting and farming, it is farming. You bring new ideas and new product and new concepts to the same folks you've been dealing with. But we absolutely have hunting strategies as well. Honestly, I think Soft-Tex has taken a position as an industry leader of research. We've undertaken bedding industry research initiative, both of bedding buyer trends. We work with, many, many retail partners, and especially during COVID times, we've been able to survey our partners on what they're seeing and aggregate the results and provide that as a free service, that I think has been really valuable to folks in the industry. And then also not just industry or retailer, B2C information, but what the consumer is looking for in bedding today. We've actually just completed a large scale research initiative for bedding consumer tastes and preferences in 2020. Stephanie: Very cool. And are you plugging in some of your products, because consumers are very interested in cleanliness going forward and what do you know? We have an antimicrobial, I'm saying that wrong, but you know what I mean, product? Taylor: It's absolutely the type of a feedback loop that fuels our product development cycle. So in our bedding buyer survey, we just got the results back on that. As you might imagine, anything with fresh and clean attributes has been on a positive sales trend and we've for a long time had anti-microbial infusions and treatments in our products, but obviously we're ramping that up now, given the favorable sales trend that it's seeing. We're looking forward to, seeing the full landscape of what consumers are shopping for, how they shop, as that's in constant flux, especially with COVID and beyond. I think, consumers are more comfortable shopping online, increasingly daily, more and more orders, for all of eCommerce, not just bedding are taking place digitally. Stephanie: Do you think this is a longer term trend? And if so, how have you guys shifted your strategy? What things are you planning on doing differently or changing going forward? Taylor: I think, like I mentioned, we've done a great job at Soft-Tex in optimizing our product pages and the end retailer optimization. We are making the investment now, in that top of funnel or off of retailers sites discoverability. So we want people to have our brands, enter the consideration phase earlier in the process versus, just see them on a retailer site and click on them. So we're definitely investing there, because we do see the shift towards e-commerce, increasingly as a longterm trend, just rough numbers that I had looked at before this podcast. When I started at Soft-Tex, e-commerce was, just under 10% of the total business. Stephanie: That's four years ago, right? Taylor: That was in 2017. And I think, ultimately even then we were under-indexed as a company. This year, I think, just given how the trends are going and how we're pacing, it's looking, 35 to 40%. And that's not to say that the brick and mortar piece or other channels of business have shrunk terribly either. It's just grown that much, just organically as well. Stephanie: The pie has increased. Taylor: Exactly. Stephanie: With that much growth, I'm thinking about your tech stack now. And I saw a quote on some article, where you said, our approach is working, and we believe that the tech stack we've built is well positioned for continued growth. So what does your tech stack look like? What are you guys investing in? What platform are you using? What does it look behind the scenes? Taylor: I think, product information management and taxonomy, and really taking control of your data as the expert of whatever product you make, is so critical. Before I started, all of our product data was in, 50 million Excel sheets, right. Now it's much more systematized. And also, not to mention, different retail partners require different fields and everybody's set up processes a little different, whereas, before that, was institutional knowledge and it lived with a person, now that lives with platform. So that's a huge process improvement that we've made. Taylor: Digital asset management is so critical, particularly from being able to rapidly get new images out to different syndication platforms, but also tests. We've done a lot in push the envelope on image standards. We talked about how we can play a consultative role with retail partners. We'd seen some really nice boosts when we added some batches to images, as trust symbols, like if something was featured on, Better Homes & Gardens, sticking that, in the bottom right hand corner. Sometimes that's been a little tough, because certainly main images get picked up in Google shopping and there's some rules against how much text can be in the image. Taylor: That worked well for a time, when we were able to get it approved. From a text tech standpoint, email marketing, that's super important, leveraging, and also of course social, being able to leverage all of our digital assets and brand voice and value, getting it out there consistently to the customer as well, has been really important. Stephanie: What metrics do you look at for success around, whether it's your B2B type of backend or your eCommerce platform, what metrics are you reviewing to see if things are going well? Taylor: An early indication, skew count. So how many skews do we have in our assortment and how many places are they set up? Obviously if we have a thousand skews, they should all be 50 places, ideally, right? For full skew syndication. Certainly not every retailer is going to take every skew that we have. A lot of retailers still have more of a curated assortment versus an endless aisle. Certainly I think, we see a value in an endless aisle, because of how we differentiate our products. Literally we try to create every product to be a little different, to have a little bit of unique feature and value proposition. So that concept that, there's something for everyone, right. Taylor: So skew count, a very important metric, ultimately total sales obviously, unit sales and how are retailers trending, particularly ramping up impression volume, how many people are getting to a product page and certainly for folks listening, they're probably like, well, how do you get that? Not every retailer provides that information. But you certainly can leverage tools out there, on Amazon, there's intelligence tools to look at, how many views your products are getting and other things of that nature. I think that, being able to just check that and see the demand for your product over time is very important. Taylor: Other metrics that we really look at, sale, when we give discounts, how things perform, because ultimately a lot of things come back to the law of supply and demand, right. We might have a price in our mind where we think something should be, but that's not the price that the consumer wants to pay for a product. Finding that right price that moves the volume, through discounts, just finding that equilibrium is interesting. And then obviously we talked about reviews a lot, review count and quality. The quality is a big feedback loop that we take very seriously, in terms of work with our quality assurance and customer service teams, to make sure that, we don't have an issue. And we're very proud, that our products have about a 4.7, 4.8 aggregate rating. Stephanie: That's great. Taylor: It's huge. I said at the top of the call, what works for one person doesn't for another. So you might think that a pillow, if left long enough to its own devices might net out around a three. So the fact that, we're at a 4.8 overall, is really encouraging. Stephanie: That's awesome. Do any of your partners right now, not having an eCommerce platform? I'm thinking there must be some people who don't, how do you work differently with them if they only have a retail location versus your eCommerce partners? Taylor: There are, sometimes e-commerce is challenging to jump into. It can seem daunting for folks that aren't doing it, because you're talking about things at the each level versus, big old fat POS, the way you retail used to run, right. You order a bunch to a warehouse and it gets distributed. There's a lot of implications to that, especially when you're talking about commitments for product, with e-commerce and drop ship the risk is inherently on the supplier or the vendor. There's no risk for the retailer, right. The retailers is like, Oh, sure, I'll put it up on my website, but you're inventorying it. Right. You're going to ship it for me, just when I sell it. Taylor: A lot of companies, that's their biggest objection, I think, is, without a hard commitment or a retailer to commit to bulk units upfront, if they don't have that, they won't offer it for e-commerce. They won't bring it in, because they don't have that driver to pull them into it. Because it's very easy, if a retailer's ordering 10,000 units of something, pepper and a few thousand more free commerce while we're at it. But if e-commerce is the first channel you're thinking about, it can be a riskier equation. Stephanie: Do you see that changing going forward? Do you see a lot of these brands thinking about now going online? Taylor: Yeah. I mean, even within Soft-Tex it's changing, right. We have now for, within the past couple of years, now digital first product, whereas, not saying that my e-commerce department was a recycling bin before, but pulling off of the success of things in brick and mortar initially, was really what drove eCommerce previously, which is not necessarily a bad strategy. But I think today, for innovation and new product, more and more stuff, if you're confident in it, you have to commit and leverage on e-commerce. Stephanie: I completely agree. So I saw you guys had some showrooms, I think, for your product. How are you all thinking about that? Taylor: We have permanent showrooms in New York and Las Vegas, and participate in market events where we host, the buyers from many different retail partners, so much of that. The importance of an in person event, has been blown up now through COVID. We went through a virtual market in March, which, obviously is hard to convey everything through a video, but, we had fun doing it and a lot of people really enjoyed it. That whole concept has been a challenge. Right? Being able to find that dedicated time to get in front of your customers and have them, if anything, particularly for stores, it's all about creating an experience to surprise and delight. Taylor: Those buyers really want to feel the product and experience it, to ensure that it's worth, that it will monetize that floor space, that it will take up. With the first touch point being a virtual video, that can be a challenge sometimes, but, we're adapting through virtual markets, mailing samples for, Zoom calls to review them. But it certainly has been different, it looks like, the Las Vegas market furniture show was pushed back.It's likely that, at least for us, it's virtual still, just given everything that's going on. And many of our customers are, you've seen probably the announcements, a lot of travel moratoriums. Some through the end of the year, they've already come out and said so. It's been interesting from that standpoint. I guess from that point- Stephanie: I can imagine. Taylor: I think home products, more folks will spend money, through e-commerce on home and other products, that they're not spending on travel. So, positives for us and for many others. Stephanie: That could be a good opportunity. I'm thinking of, these virtual events right now to sell to buyers. I think, I would just run and jump on the mattress and then just go to sleep and then people would just be interested to see if I'd wake up, that might pull people in. That's how I would sell it. Taylor: That's a very attention grabbing headline, for sure. Stephanie: It'd be like, is she asleep or is she dead, what happened or is she frozen? I don't know. Taylor: That's all right. Maybe we'll use that in our next market video. Stephanie: Great. I can be the star of it, I'm pretty good at sleeping and internet freezing, all of the above I'm good at. Are you thinking about incorporating these virtual strategies going forward? Is it something even when the pandemics over, that you're like, this is working well, we might try this out in the future and use it for, our initial targeting effort to then retarget them to an in person event afterwards. Or how are you thinking about that marketing strategy going forward? Taylor: I think it's something that, we're definitely going to do. It's something that we had been doing, I guess, even before. We would do video walk throughs of our showroom and our virtual experience with an industry publication called, Home Textiles Today. But for the most recent market, we produced the virtual market video ourselves. So, leveraging, either internal or partner capabilities, we still think it's very important to address that. There's always going to be people that can't come to an event, even forget COVID times. So it's always good to have that digital touch point to be able to send to them. And also, to your point, it absolutely can sit on our website and exist as a lead generation tool as well, for people to sign up, to see our latest innovation and then fill out a lead form and then go watch the video. Stephanie: There is definitely a lot of opportunity there, for content that is being created now that maybe wouldn't have been thought of before everything that was going on. Taylor: Right. It's a delicate situation, because a lot of what we produce for a trade show like that, and our competitors, is very future looking and conceptual. There is a level of security. Most of what we sell at a trade show is not yet fully commercialized. Sometimes it is, but in many cases it's like, this is new brand new technology and we're introducing it here. So, there's also a dimension of, yes, we want people to see it, but no, we don't want everyone to see it. Stephanie: That's got to be a little bit, get a little FOMO there and make it a secret. Taylor: That's right. Stephanie: So you have an interesting intersection between B2B and B2C. Is there anything that you wish existed right now in the eCommerce space or technology wise, or you're like, we're struggling with this right now, that you could see getting better in the future or that you hope to get better? Taylor: We have some partners now that help us provide really high quality CGI imagery. Obviously that's been around, but, making that process easier, it takes a lot of work to stage a live photo and video shoot, especially for our product class. That's something that we're looking to get better at, such that we can, as we commercialize new products, we don't have to have crazy processes to stage a photo and video shoot. Certainly there's value to that, and we will continue to use it. We have to use live folks for a lot of things, and models and videos, but for the static, just e-commerce imagery, getting those images up front can really increase our speed to market. Taylor: I would think the other thing, that perhaps we're missing today, is really seeing an aggregation of reviews across platforms. So obviously we see reviews that are syndicated. But we don't always see every review out there. So getting notified when there's a negative review in particular, such that we can see, is it just a one off? Somebody just didn't like it, or, is it the start of a trend of some sort. That happens very seldom with us fortunately, but it's always good to be on the forefront. Taylor: If you think about it, I'm sure we're not alone. A company like Kraft, they have millions of skews probably, having that feedback loop automated is so important. You can't have a person, tracking every review manually, right? So the more automation that's out there, the better. And we've done a really good job, I think, building out partners with the scraping capability to monitor our product pages and also, with advertising as well. Stephanie: Very cool. That's two very useful things. I'm sure a lot of people will be looking for, going forward as well. So we have a couple of minutes left and I do not want to let you get out of the lightning round. So let me know if you're ready and we can start that, Taylor. Taylor: Let's do it. Stephanie: All right. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready? Taylor: Yes. Stephanie: All right. First one. What's the next sleep product that you're excited about buying or what are you most excited about right now? Taylor: CBD pillows. Stephanie: Tell me more about that. Taylor: Our CBD, we're really proud of the chemistry. It's microencapsulated into the cover. So with body pressure and as you toss and turn, as you sleep, the capsules break open and release the CBD up through the fabric and it's absorbed in the CBD receptors in the skin. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. That sounds very interesting. I have to check that out. Taylor: Coming, next quarter. Stephanie: Cool. I'll be on the lookout for that. What's up next on your reading list or audible? Taylor: That's a really great question. I don't read as much as I should. Mostly, I'm reader of the news. I would love a good mystery. I don't read enough fiction, sometimes it's good for diversion, especially during COVID times, right? Stephanie: Yep. We'll have to find one for you then. I'll source one and let you know. Taylor: Yes, please. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix queue? Taylor: Ozark. We just started, it's been really intense. So my wife as a mental health counselor, and I have some stressful days at work, so we both agreed, it's pretty much a weekend thing, because it's so intense, we can't watch it. Stephanie: Yes. I agree. You got to balance that out, put on a Disney movie or something. Taylor: Exactly. Stephanie: And the last one, what one thing, will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year? Taylor: I am going to say, voice search, I think more and more people will leverage, Siri or Alexa or the Google voice piece, for searching on stuff. I think, particularly, so much of our population is aging. For whatever reason, when I see somebody have a question, I see them using the voice search the most, like my grandparents, that demographic. As it gets better, we'll see it used more and more. Stephanie: I completely agree [inaudible 00:57:15]. To take anymore, too much work. Taylor: I know. That's all right. Stephanie: I like that. Well, Taylor, it's been a blast having you on. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Soft-Tex International? Taylor: You can check us out on the web at, soft-tex.com. We're also on Facebook and Instagram. You can also check out any of our brands, like SensorPedic, SensorGel or BioPEDIC. For me personally, I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter, Taylor Jones. There's a lot of Taylor Jones's, but I'm out there. Stephanie: We'll link you up. We will find you, don't worry. All right. Thanks so much, Taylor. And we will talk to you soon. Taylor: Okay. Thanks so much, Stephanie. This is great.  

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/Patty: Hey there Patty Dominguez, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Her Legacy Podcast. We are in episode 15 with Susan Borison and Stephanie Silverman. Two women that are moms at the time there were moms of teens and they were looking at sharing what was happening. Challenges of parenting teens and this passion project turned into something that has continued with yourteenmag.com. And I find them absolutely fascinating because of their insane amount of perseverance the way that they collaborate and they make it fun. Along the way. So these are two women that took the concept of a challenge and they turned it into a passion project. And it is truly an honor to collaborate with them as well. And so it is my great pleasure to introduce you today to Susan Borison and Stephanie Silverman from yourteenmag.com.Patty: All right well thank you so much Susan and Stephanie for being on our show. You are the founders of your teenmag.com and it is a pleasure to have you on. So this is a three people podcast and Susan at the beginning was saying wait wait. Who's going to say what? And so we're just going to riff on this. People were just going to go with the flow and talk about how do you know when it's time to quit. And you're going to hear from two women who have been in business with yourteenmag.com for the past 12 years. How's that for tenacity. So thank you both for joining me today on Her Legacy Podcast.Susan: Thanks for having us.Patty: So I want to ask first and foremost typically I say hey let's get braggy. What's your superpower? But I'm speaking to an individual. But when you look at your Teen Mag what is your Teen Mag super power in your opinion?Susan: I would say it's just creating great content for Parents Day in and day out.Patty: Right. And you've been around for 12 years. What's been the feedback around. I mean certainly the longevity that you have to create something so sustainable. How do you know that what you have to offer is great and I'm being completely honest here how do you know that. Do you get a lot of rave reviews?Susan: Yeah we just actually got something today. And it was from a reader who said. Hi there. I don't think I've ever told you just how much enjoyed your teens through the years have made times that exhale.Because I found out I wasn't alone in this situation or simply got great advice. It's a wonderful publication. So we hear that all the time. And you know the best part about hearing it is that's what we set out to do.Patty: Yeah that's brilliant. And the fact is you provide community and support. And we know that when a business comes at it from a servant leadership part it just takes on a different position in people's mind. When you think about mindshare I always think about when somebody is building a brand like what's the mindshare that you capture.And I really see that with your teen mag. Just because I'm working on your project I see that there is just this level of comfort security for parents to feel that they're not alone. I think that's deeply deeply meaningful. Aside from of course that stellar content that you have so I really commend you for that because not a whole lot of people would have that level of attention to detail and care. So.Susan: Thank you. I think one of the things that we've tried to create is like a grownup playgroup for people and in our case it would be a virtual playgroup. But for many moms that was such a place to get information and to figure out. What was normal and what wasn't normal and you don't really have that anymore as your kids get older.So our goal was to create a space where you could come and you could say I have this problem and people could bolster you with their solutions or just compassion or just say me too. And. Then we have a number of spaces where that's really happening like our Facebook groups are great for that. Really supportive it's the village that we all look for.Patty: Exactly exactly that level of support. All right so take me back. Take us back all the way to the beginning. How did this start. How did yourteenmag.com start?Susan: Well since I was there first I'll start with that and then Steph can jump in. I have five kids. I went to law school. I stopped working after my third was born and I was fortunate enough to be able to make that decision and stay home with my kids. And when my kids when my oldest ones were getting near high school I really felt like I had to get out of their way. I had a lot of time on my hands but they did need. And I didn't want to go back to law.And so for years I had been saying to my husband. Why is there no parent's magazine for us as our kids get older? It's not a cumulative skill set. And I lost. And I just don't know if this behavior is normal or if I should be calling like an emergency room hospital to bring them all in. You know like you just don't know. And how do you find out. OK I don't know. But I also don't know where to go to find out without making turning everything into something extreme.And most of the things that we confront in adolescence fortunately aren't that extreme but we don't know it. So I just set out to feel the need of something I wanted and when I went and spoke to friends they wanted it to. I mean you know I had a gut that it was universal but you don't know you could be an opinion of one. And it wasn't the case every time I spoke to somebody they too were feeling alone and were looking for ways to kind of get validated or.You know as much as we don't want to hear that there's a crisis going on we'd rather know it than ignore it. So then from there we really just got a group of women Stephanie was one of them and then Stephanie and I soon after became partners. And that was the beginning of a love project really like a passion project.Patty: I think that's so brilliant. And the first part of that. Spoken like a true entrepreneur is that we really look for solutions to problems instead of just saying oh yeah that's a problem there. And so I'm assuming to sort of right around where 2006 or 2007.Susan: 2007 I think.Patty: Well the conversation started in 2007 and then the magazine was launched in 2007. OK. And then the other side of it is not only the fact that you identified that there was a need in the marketplace but you also validated it by checking in with other mothers checking in with your target audience if you will as you were developing the idea you were assessing. Yeah there is a need in the marketplace so you've looked at for the validation to say wow. Nobody's filling these needs. So now it's up to me to put something together and you rally.So I just want to give context to that because I think it's so important. I mean ideas are plentiful. People have ideas but it's the execution where most people fall short and they don't really understand how to take it through to break. And so for that reason I mean that was really great that you were able to assess not only there's an opportunity but here's what I to do about it am. So to that point. Talk to me about the beginning of me. Did you have experience with creating an online publication?Stephanie: We had no experience as you said she was a lawyer. I was a banker. We didn't know anything about publishing. Sue had this great idea we had met through a leadership course. I would say like every great relationship we were friends first before our work marriage and it was to this day we will say it with her credit that we really didn't understand the media business. We didn't even know it was called the media business to be honest. I think what we understood was that parents seemed desperate for the same information that we were desperate for. And. I guess we just kept going. Right.So we were getting some certainly some good feedback but also I think we were undeterred by this idea that OK we're you know we're helping people. It seems to resonate. Like let's just keep going. And so this idea of yeah having the skill set first and then then building the business. That's not how it happens. You know there's a saying in this leadership course you're on about building a bridge while you're walking on. Yeah that's pretty much our story. And I think. I was making notes as we're sitting here and I was just thinking about the even just the value of our partnership and being able to. Throw things back and forth at each other right and say likeOkay well when what about this or what about that or. OK well let's try this and I don't think we've ever been accused of. Waiting two longer. We're both. We will take action and we just continue to plow ahead and just watch media and while we do have the business the media experience were both smart women and I think we both have that. Mindset that we'll figure it out. We're both puzzlers. We love to win. We really love to win. And so that just propelled us forward was just you know just keep going. Keep going and keep solving keep going and keep solving.Patty: I love that. I love that. They know right before we got a call. I was like wait. Like let's go live. Because Susan said we're a 12 year start up and capturing that right. That yourteenmag.com is a 12 your start up. Tell me what that means. Tell us what that means to you.Susan: I want to say that just to respond to something Stephanie said we not only did Stephanie and I not know the industry but there wasn't one woman around the table. We were a group of women who did not know each other but someone knew someone who knew someone. And we sat around the table really working hard to get to the point of publishing our first print magazine. And no one around the table had any background so we were literally just passion.That's all we had passion and grit. But as it turned out that was a real advantage in an industry that was changing so rapidly which is why many people told us not to do it because why would you get into media when media is you know falling apart. But we had this distinct advantage of not knowing anything so the world was our oyster like when no one ever could say we've always done it this way because we didn't know we were doing so we know there was one issue.When we do this to this day but we get cover sponsor and someone who was also in the media industry said to us like where did you get that idea from. And we were like I don't know. We just you know we had some more real estate. And so we said well would you want to be on the cover. But that was hard for people who were born in the worlds of media because nobody did that for us. We didn't care we didn't know it was just a joke.Patty: I love that. I love it as an example. You made your own rules along the way and really not sticking to conventional wisdom of what. People think it should look like. And because of that there was an opportunity right there. So I think the curious action taking is something to be commended because. Most people would say well who can I model or.And it's OK to model. But I think just like you said the ambiguity and you being very comfortable in it really helped you all along the entire process. So that's pretty cool. That's a great idea. That was I'm sure completely out of left field for somebody to say well that's not how we do it.Susan: Right.Patty: And then you're probably like Oh really. And then by that time it was a really approving concept I'm assuming right.Susan: I mean it's worked great for us.Patty: That's awesome. I love that but not a great story like not following conventional wisdom So, Oh my god that's awesome. OK. So tell me now at the beginning like what were some of the myths as you put so many people are in a situation where they have a great idea with a very passionate which is what you're saying or they have like-minded friends colleagues that turn into partners and they were allowed into this journey of saying OK we got to make this happen.It takes tenacity and we take action. And so it's like I always say there's just peaks and valleys through this whole journey. What were some of the like kind of crash and burn moments where you questions. Should we continue? And how did you get out of it.Susan: I'll let Stephanie answer that but I'm just going to say that this shorter story is how many peaks were there not how many valleys.Patty: That's so sad I might need a tissue.Stephanie: Oh yeah.No no I'll give you the home where I really thought we were closing up shop like this. Sue knows the story I'm going to stop. So it just launched a new product. And we were things were going well with a distribution model we had partnered with an organization that was going to execute on this distribution model. Was going to be all over the country at different events. And so because the first event was close to where we are based in Cleveland Ohio is the you know let's go to the first one let's watch how it rolls out. You know we can always learn the server I guess or go to. So we went there and discovered that what we had agreed to with this company was not how it was taking place. So we watched you know this event unfold realized that they were not upholding their end of the bargain. And. We seize the day it's so us.I'm looking at Sue and I can see each other while were sitting there having this conversation though your listeners can't and I'm laughing because it was so us. I'm realizing maybe the theme of your team is rule breaking. So Sue and I we're taking this new publication we have and we kept like breaking all the rules.You know they were told you know we could do this but we did it. They said don't do that. Well we did it anyway because they were not upholding our ends of the bargain. We sold advertising sponsorship that this would be distributed in a certain way. So yeah it was more like a cartoon where like you know they close one door and then the little people running around on the train coming the other door and they try, were trying everything.So we get back to our hotel room that night and we realize we get a real problem here. We think rollout to you knows another 30 cities and this distribution is not working. So we're sharing a hotel room. And we're talking go to bed and wake up at about 5:00 in the morning I think we may see like a light. Sue was on her computer and her computer is on her lap. And we're trying to figure out like OK what else can we do and create our own distribution method. And I thought yeah this is the day. And meanwhile I'm appearing Sue I don't know if you remember this part. I'm appearing on a panel maybe 48 hours later all of entrepreneurs and you know these are like oh like why it's so great to be entrepreneur.And success and all these great things. Anyway we end up figuring out a new distribution within Sue, 24 hours not even. I mean we already had a new plan and we felt good about it. We felt like well we're so glad this happened. Now we own this distribution of this whole thing and yet we thought you know in those 12 hours or whatever it was it felt like a thousand and 12 hours that this was going to be how we went out of business like this was it It was going to be our biggest accomplishment was really looking like our biggest failure and failure is just. That is not in our playbook.Susan: I love it. I mean one of the things about a partnership that is a marriage and works there I mean we have a wonderful partnership is that there's this. I would say that it's you know we kind of think well neither one of us hits that point of like we should get out of this at the same time. But I don't actually think that's what happens. I think what happens is when one of us articulates starts to tiptoe into that space of panic the other one is the spouse who stands up and says everything's going to be fine.Like there's not going to be two of us panicking right now. So it's not just me and it's not just Stephanie but we each play that role to each other when one of us is feeling like I just don't think we're going to be able to pull this off.And then the other ones like oh no I had a fabulous day. And even if it's not true even if a week later we both admit that like we were just being good to each other and bolstering each other but it really really does work.Patty:] That's amazing. And what do you think is the reason for that is that personality types like ying and yang. Did you guys have core values discussion or. I mean you've been together for so long you just kind of find your ebb and flow but what initially was a reason that you were able to create something really like where you're symbiotic. It sounds like.Susan: They were just too committed to succeeding at this. I mean I often look at my own marriage and I remember someone asked Pink the singer why she's still married and she said we just don't leave. And I thought you know in my own personal marriage I often feel like it's a commitment to the marriage even more than a commitment to the person.And I think Stephanie and I are so competitive and so damn committed to making this. You know what it could be that you know we're in it we're just both in it.Patty: That's cheating. All right so I'm going to flip the script a little bit .Susan, how would you describe Stephanie as an entrepreneur. Like what are her strengths that she brings to the table that are such a key component to your Teen Mag.Susan: I think the most amazing thing is to have divided the company in a way that we didn't even know was the right way. It was kind of like well I'll do this and I'll do this. And all of a sudden like Stephanie turned into I mean I guess the word is a sales person but it's not that it's so much more. It's an ability to really understand how you partner with other people to make those relationships grow.And. You know 11 years ago ten years ago whenever it clicked in it was like astonishing to watch and I was just telling Stephanie about the first time we sat with somebody and she threw out a number that was bigger than any we'd ever thrown out. And I was like I'm not so comfortable with silence. But she had already gone into the meeting deciding that silence was the important tool like she throws it out and sit quietlyYep. And I was like praying that I do not violate her rule. Because I could have come out there and completely. Like beat against ourselves you know. And we got the contract and it was insane. And that was just the beginning of this journey of like really learning a place that, I mean I think in very ironic ways where each doing what we should be doing. But we didn't know it.Patty: And how about you. How about you Stephanie if you were to describe what Susan brings to the table those personality attributes.Stephanie: Two things come to mind. The first would be. She is a great problem solver. She can solve anything. So like there is no wall that is too tall. So like you know. She'll get to something and. somebody quit. Somebody says we can't do that.Somebody said it doesn't matter what it is she'll say OK and she'll have it solved within like. A minute literally like it's crazy. It's crazy how quickly she can go from like standing at that wall. To jumping over it around it through. Doesn't matter does not matter.Patty: That's tenacity.Stephanie: That you were saying get out. What is her? Yeah her super power. She can mount large walls and circumvent them. That's one of them. And then the other one and I already lost her. Oh she has a great ability. I mean it's really so problems solver right to come at it from another angle that I thought. Would say well wait a minute so? If we're trying to get. X. Maybe we should be asking this question. Oh. I don't even think of that and it's so funny.And this is not what you asked. It relates to maybe just how we relate to each other. Is there are so many times I just telling the story yesterday to somebody or so many times where you know I mean meeting when we talking about something and somebody I don't I will refer to. Something and I'll say yes Sue had this awesome idea and she'll start language like you knew that was your idea. It was so not my idea we were talking then and then we honestly cannot remember. He wasn't. Maybe it was yours.What were very good and I always say this like. Often people call me Sue call her Steph and we make jokes with the same person and that am what you ask. Our values are very much the same. We have good marriages right. We have good relationships and we bring it into this business too But, We are very good. I would say at if we don't agree on something. And this gets back to nothing the same person we are very good at talking it through. And one of us eventually. It's never the same one will say you know what ,you got this.You got this like this is your you know like you were excellent at like throwing something back and forth. Well I don't see it like that. You know what. You take it. You're right or I don't even know I don't even care. You know you handle.Patty: And so here is what I'm seeing and I think is really important is that in the partnership you complement each other really well. You can recognize each other's strengths and then at the same time it sounds to me like there's little to no ego whatsoever. About who had the idea or who gets this or who gets to that because you know that it's all for making your teenmag.com get better at putting out a different product. That's very rare. Very rare.Susan: I want to say that we learned early on from somebody who turned out to be a wonderful mentor to us. That collaboration was a really it was the most valuable thing we could do in our business. And it came at a time that was so important for me personally because I was seeing everybody else in the space that we were in as a threat. And her response was at one time said look at this like to show her the competition and she said oh my god that's so exciting.Give them a call. And I was like. What? She's like yes maybe you can work together. So that really changed. I think for both Stephanie and I how we run the business and so when we can't figure out whose idea was that is the consummate compliment about collaboration that we've had people work for us and it didn't work out for them well at all because. That was a process that they couldn't wrap your head around that at the end we weren't going to know who got credit.That it was going to be like this brainstorming every second of every meeting where something bubbled to the top but it was a word from every single person. And at the end it was just the right thing. I love that there are people who can't just. I mean it's not better or worse it's just not the environment they work well in.Stephanie: Sue do you remember whose idea the cover sponsor was.Susan: No clue.Stephanie: Exactly.Susan: Do you?Stephanie: No I have no idea. That's my point. No idea, it could have been your idea Patty. I have no idea.Patty: Well I was going to say this I remember one of the best bosses I ever worked with corporate was so great because he was all about collaboration. And I remember we had a presentation in front of our biggest client at the time is when I was in management consulting and that something had happened at home my son had to be hospitalize he was like 3 years old. And I called them up and I was Paul, I can't make it. Like literally I have to be here.It's you know my son is in the hospital like anybody else would be like well what are we going to do in this and that. And then it was like without hesitation he's like, No problem. So and so we'll pick up the ball and one of the things that I so appreciate it at the beginning of why I got that job was because we've worked together, we play together we win together. And if you don't understand that I will cut you off like cancer.Like he was so militant about that one whirl. And because of that we operated like a well-oiled machine it was probably the best situation I've ever been in in the tenure that I had in corporate life you know 18 years because the majority of people are all about well who gets the credit. I want to look good. It's very self-serving. Whereas he was like he understood.Those by all of us contributing were so much stronger. Right. And we're all going to get the accolades that we want by collaborating in that way. And that's such a distinct Sense of leadership and emotional intelligence that literally 99 percent of people just don't have. So that is a huge competitive advantage to you guys that I could see just from the outside looking at. So I think that's phenomenal.Susan: OK I want another chance to give Stephanie superpowers.Patty: Yeah go ahead.Susan: So the two that make. Life fun. Is that Stephanie laughs like a lot? She laughs. I mean I wish I could see what my sister in law gave my husband. But it was something about how no one thinks I'm funnier than me. So my husband in my work status.Believe that, like they both they like look at her. I mean you can see her but her whole body is involved in a lot of right thing.Susan: Right. So they both find themselves very funny which of course actually does create just an atmosphere of Laughter. It does.Patty: Yeah.Susan: And so that's so much fun and cuts through any problem you ever had and then the other thing that I marvel at because I think I'm 8 years older than you right?Stephanie: I know I'm going to be 50 in March.Susan: I'm going to be 58 in April so that's a good idea.Stephanie: There you go. Were also good at math.Susan: Yes you're very good at that. The thing is I cannot remember anybody's name anymore at all. And Stephanie knows if your daughter was dating. Am and who the person was and where they went to college and they were thinking about transferring so she made a connection and she checks up on that. So if you're going to be in sales you want to. STEPHANIE.Stephanie: Yeah I was at one. No you don't. Because she belongs to you. So but yeah that is a phenomenal spokes at. For a 50 sample yesterday morning Sue and I are sitting in a coffee shop already at 2 waiting for a meeting I look over the coffee shop and I think I'd recognize someone that we met with one time it's been awhile it been a year So I'm out mother just see her, Sue look across over there. I think that's the person and I start You know, and Sue put her glasses on and she's looking in out first no one can see my face but she's got this look like I've never seen that person before in my life right.That look and I go Oh see you' recognize her huh. And we started. I'm like crying. Like everything is fair game. I agree with Sue says I'm going to be. If you can find any shred of something to laugh at. Count me in.Patty: That's awesome. That's awesome. All right so we're turning the corner. What do you each individually excited about. Of where yourteenmag.com is going.Susan: All right. Well last I think two weeks ago, Stephanie hadn't been out of town I would have called her and said we need to meet and talk about whether there's any way to pull this off. And two weeks later I think we are going to kill it in the biggest way.And I can't even believe. How things have come together. Working with you. This is extraordinary. Working with the people you're giving us which is extraordinary having. Like a man who has no reason to want to love us say he will work for us for pennies because he wants to see us succeed. I mean it's all. There's just all these things happening right now and they're working they're working. I think. You know it's like the sky's the limit right now. It's really exciting and we're never going to say it was an overnight success.Stephanie: I know.Susan: It is. Hard hard work more sleepless nights than nights with sleep. And we could never pull ourselves away from this because it's been a passion project.Patty: Well I love it.Stephanie: And the one thing I'll add to that is and they just said this to someone the other day. That I look around the table and look around like if the players can have their hands in Your Teen right now. And it's the right team. You know I look at every piece and my husband has a saying that when you see someone who's.Doing the job they were meant to do it. And he always says they're sitting in the right seat. I look around our table and I say Oh my God we've got every. It's all the right seeds. And like I've never felt like that in the business as much as I get. Excited is I feel different times whenever I can honestly look around now and say wow like how do we get so lucky.Patty: That's awesome. That is great. And it just shows because you were committed. You're committed until it wasn't until it's convenient or until you're tired or any of that it's like until ,until it gets to the levels of success that you that you deserve and you're looking for so I love it.I mean it's such an honor to be a part of you guys his journey on your teen and where you want to take it because there is so much more coming you're going to see the incredible feedback and how you can serve your customers or clients at such a different level in 2019. So for the people listening for more information check out your teenmag.comPatty: And you're on Facebook on Instagram or you on Pinterest as well.Susan: Twitter. Interest.Patty: Am I missing anything.Susan: [00:31:10] Twitter.Patty: Twitter. I always forget Twitter Twitter and now that again yourteenmag.com I so appreciate your heart because both of you have such tenacity and you guys in my book are bad asses so just so you know. It's official. You are bad asses.Susan: That's a compliment.Patty: A deep compliment because most people it just won't do what it takes to keep going so. So this was all about how do you know when it's time to quit. Well the answer is you don't. You don't when it's a passion project and you have the right team and the synergy is there and the collaboration is there and there's no ego in the whole thing.And I also really commend you for having a beautiful partnership that you've able to curates develops into something meaningful and it almost kind of crosses over doesn't it. Between the professional and personal like were you deeply are like gosh you guys are like family right. Like that level where you look at your team and say you all are like family. We deeply care about each other. That's when you know you hit the mark in terms of the lines are blurred in such a good way. That there's no difference between working or b right.It's a love that dynamic team is just jelling and it takes on a life of its own. So I see it very clearly with that you guys are developing. So thank you so much. Oh one last question I can't believe my famous question. The question is that each of you answers please. When all was said and done what do you want your legacy to be?Susan: Well I mean I love your teen. It's been a journey and a gift. And some of the things about your teen I love but my family I mean I already feel like you know there are moments in life I remember right after I got married being on a plane with a tremendous amount of turbulence and I thought well if I die right nowI have this great love affair like you know that I got to experience that. So I feel that way in my own life like to have this husband and these kids and these friendships and the partnership with Stephanie and all of these other people we've gotten to meet along the journey. It's hard to think of something better.Patty: Wow I love that How about for you Stephanie?Stephanie: No you can't take the words out of my mouth but I will add to that. It's funny you are saying about being a bad ass. The one thing I always say is I want to be known as a kind bad ass.Patty: Okay. Yeah definitely. There's a difference right about. The fact that you are a success but how you got to be a success. Right. If you like burn bridges in the process that was the big bad ass.Stephanie: Yeah yeah. Now that kindness goes a long way. I hope people think about me I was about that with my kids too that they were kind. Come to teach you Steph.Patty: Gracias she's throwing up the P sign. All right. All right ladies thank you so much for being on her legacy. Get yourteenmag.com and I so appreciate you and I think it be a good idea to come back on the podcast.Right because we're so many good things are happening for you all and see what happened right. The 12 year starts of what's the story of glory. We could talk about that about would be really cool. Sounds good.Susan: I think you got in steady.Patty: You so much for joining us on this episode of Her Legacy Podcast...Links mention in this episode:Website: yourteenmag.com,Media Handles: https://www.facebook.com/YourTeenhttps://www.instagram.com/yourteenmag/https://www.pinterest.com/yourteenmag

How can we bring more fun into sustainability so we can draw more people into the space? To inspire greater awareness and action, what can in-person events do for sustainability that the digital world can't replicate?   Stephanie Dickson, Founder of The Wedge and Green is the New Black (Asia's first conscious festival) shares her wisdom with us on this episode.   HIGHLIGHTS:  [6:54] The biggest challenge Stephanie faced in creating the first eco-festival in Asia.   [8:02] Stephanie: "I really had to learn to be kinder to myself, enjoy the journey, celebrate the wins, and realize that the small changes make a big difference."   [10:54] Kaméa: "What's something you've learned from the Green Is The New Black event that's shifted your perspective on sustainability?"   [12:05] Stephanie: "There's been a lot of brands working behind the scenes doing all of this great work, but they're so scared to share about this publicly because of backlash and greenwashing. This just reiterated that people are ready to hear about it."   [17:22] Stephanie's thoughts on what in-person events can do for sustainability that the digital world can't.    [19:51] Stephanie: "When I'm designing events, I think about: inspiration, knowledge, and action."    Thanks for bringing your light! Find the full show notes with links and resources at www.greendreamer.com, and share your #1 takeaway from the episode tagging our featured guest and me @KameaChayne to spread the light and to let us know you're tuning in!

Episode 41 - It's All Fun And Games - In this here episode, Stephanie talks about having fun and games. It's all very exciting. The "thinking about having fun while playing games" part. But is it really fun? "Wednesday Game Night" is an actual thing and it's becoming popular once again (Everything is cyclical. Remember that). Of course, game night means board games, card games and kids' games that have been, perhaps, forgotten and need to be dusted of the shelf for a second run. Stephanie also mentions that it's all fun and games until someone...hmmm...can't stand it anymore. We here at Talk, Tales and Trivia are not asking any questions about that one. Perhaps, it's like something that one (?) used to love doing. Like a chore or spring cleaning. You get the point. Put all that aside for now. Get your chips and salsa or popcorn and a favorite drink. Get into "Wednesday Game Night" and know deep down inside that you're a winner no matter what. *You won't believe it (or maybe you will). Found: Classic Mystery Jigsaw Puzzle. Fun even for one! YES! *Steph's old time favorite: Royal Game of Ur *Get Parcheesi - Stephanie played this when she was a youngster: You've never heard of it? Parcheesi it up, baby! *Perhaps a little backgammon? Backgammon is FUN! *Mastermind (Steph was good at this at one point): Get Mastermind! Your brain exercise for the night *Do you like racy card games? Tell the truth. Don't be shy. Crimes Against Humanity Card Game OR would you rather play "Would You Rather"? Would You Rather Card Game *Table Topics (aka, named "The Divorce Game" by Stephanie) There are choices of which Table Topics to get *A small part of a Revolverhead music video shows older adults playing the  "Looping Louie" game. See it below: Looping Louie Funny Revolverhead Video *See Looping Louis all souped up with high powered motor and lights: There are a lot of these videos. So look at them all! *Do you think you're ready to play Looping Louie? Let's see what happens after you are done putting all those stickers on. It's fun! Looping Louie Game *Hunt A Killer monthly subscription: Go now to become a subscriber to Hunt A Killer *Are you into crime? Well, that sounds kind of weird...but are you? Listen to the "Crime Writers On" podcast *Get your Skinny Cleanse and your Protein Cleanse. They're healthy, tasty and fresh: https://www.rawgeneration.com *Now go quickly and get the Talk, Tales and Trivia App: Talk, Tales and Trivia App *Write a review (by clicking on the "Ratings and Reviews") after you click here *Here's a massive thumbs up and a huge thank you to our Audio Engineer, Cartoonr. I highly recommend him. See the link below: Cartoonr page on fiverr.com *Intro/Outro music is "Happy Go Lucky" by Scott Holmes *Fill out this really cool survey so we can see who's listening and make Talk, Tales and Trivia even better (250 submits needed!): https://survey.libsyn.com/talktalesandtrivia Please visit our Patreon page to contribute to this here podcast: https://www.patreon.com/talktalesandtrivia iTunes https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-tales-and-trivia/id1144007260?mt=2&ls=1 iHeart Radio: http://www.iheart.com Stiticher: http://www.stitcher.com Google Play Music: TalkTalesAndTrivia Twitter: https://twitter.com/TalkTalesEtc Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/talktalesandtrivia/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talktalesandtrivia/ *Contacttalktalesandtrivia@gmail.com OR DO THIS!  

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Stephanie Boyle Founder, Rogue Paper, Inc. Date: August 29, 2011 [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of NCWIT, the National Center for Women in Information Technology. We're working hard to make sure that more girls and women are introduced to the exciting potential of computing education and career paths. Part of what we're doing is this exciting interview series with women who have started IT companies. They're fabulous entrepreneurs. They all have such interesting stories to tell. today we're going to interview another one, Stephanie Boyle. With me is Larry Nelson from W3W3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Oh, it's really a pleasure to be here. We like to focus, of course, on business and high technology with a special emphasis on young girls and women in technology. NCWIT has been doing a marvelous job. We're happy to be a part of it. Lucy: Well, and thank you very much for all the support that you give us with this excellent interview series. Now let me say a few words about Stephanie Boyle, the person we're talking to today. She's nothing less than a pioneer in the mobile Internet space as far as I'm concerned, having first helped shape the area as a founding member of Ericsson's Digital Media Innovation Center. Big brain thinking going on in this center, and it really helped to shape the whole mobile area. Now she is the founder of Rogue Paper, and she and her team deliver integrated mobile experiences to users. Now in the old days we used to call this convergence, but there's really a whole lot more exciting language and capability around the space today. I'm sure that Stephanie will be talking about that. But some of the things you can do now with the things that they're working on with Rogue Paper around co‑viewing a TV show and interacting with social media at the same time and integrating all of that. You're thinking, "That's really cool real‑time experience." But wait. There's more. You can actually do it with a rerun, where you can experience the whole power of what people said about the show or whatever movie and do it even when you are replaying or rerunning it. Just really interesting types of interactions going on right now and certainly leading to more engaging experience for viewers. Stephanie, wow! You've got a great company. Tell us a little bit about what's going on here. Stephanie Boyle: Thank you. Rogue Paper, we really started the business a year and a half ago with the mission of using mobile applications and technology to help enhance and drive traditional medium broadcast. Basically we are self‑proclaimed "TV‑holics"... Lucy: [laughs] Stephanie: ...and recognized [laughs] that we really wanted to not only watch television but really interact with the social sphere while we're watching these shows, that the content goes beyond just the primary screen. Really there is a second screen opportunity that can be interactive and augment the primary screen. There's a lot of really bad television being watched, but then [laughs] along with a lot of our guilty pleasures, which makes our jobs definitely a little bit more fun. But we really focused on how can we make the primary screen of television an interactive experience for users on the second screen, whether the second screen is a mobile device, a tablet, a desktop experience, or other things? We're trying to provide the users with second screen interactive content but then also provide media companies a way to reach these people already multitasking, who are already texting with their friends or IM‑ing or posting to Facebook or tweeting about what they're watching. It's really trying to bring the experience together as one single destination for a viewer and for the media companies to really have a holistic double‑screen experience. Lucy: That's really phenomenal. OK, I have a lot of guilty pleasures with TV, too. [laughs] One of them is American Idol, right? Stephanie: Right. [laughs] Lucy: When people are performing, and then people are tweeting or they've got things to say later in the blogs, and it's just not as much fun as if you could see it right then. Stephanie: Yeah. Well, and if you think about it, television has always been a social experience. It started in the 1950s. Maybe one or two people on a block had a television. It was really event driven. The people would come and sit together, and watch whatever was on the television and really talk about it together. Then as the technology innovations and as even socio‑economic things happened, we had VCRs and all of these second screens in the home, second televisions in the home, if you go into the seventies and eighties. Then the conversations started moving around the water cooler, so it was where people aggregated. It could be eight hours, 10 hours, 24 hours after the show aired. In the last two decades this has really moved into a digital landscape. I would say in the last five years or so it's really become back to real time because people aren't sitting together anymore. They're actually on their sofas or tweeting or talking, texting, or instant messaging. All these different mediums, but it's all really because, as a medium, it is social. Lucy: Yes, it certainly is. I remember the first time I saw a color TV in my neighborhood. It was Halloween. Larry: Oh! Lucy: I know. Stephanie: [laughs] Lucy: I was trick or treating. Anyway, back to you, Stephanie. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about how you first got into technology? Stephanie: Yeah. I was always interested in systems and the way things interconnect. I was of a generation that there was one computer in our elementary school to having them in high school and later. But wasn't necessarily as intrigued with the computers themselves as I was with the Ataris, the ColecoVisions, [laughs] the computer systems that we had at home that really could help me build games or play games. But always interested in how the systems worked and how people interacted with them. Actually, my mother was the first person to show me a computer in a way where she took it apart and had me put it back together. Lucy: Oh, that is awesome. Stephanie: Yeah. [laughs] While I'm not a digital native, I was exposed to technology as something that could be deconstructed to learn about and then put it back together. It definitely eliminated fear for me. It's always something that I felt was accessible, interesting, and intriguing. As time went on, I'm self‑taught in a lot of ways because of that because if I don't know how to program in HTML5, I'll have somebody [laughs] do it for me. Then I'll take it apart and try and change it and put it back together. But definitely I look to my mother as the person who eliminated that "technology is this strange and new" thing and made it instead something that was tangible and interesting. Larry: I wish I had known you a number of years ago when we needed something put back together. [laughter] Stephanie: Right. I remember being intrigued by this whole concept of my mother showing me the mother board in the computer. [laughter] Lucy: That's great. Stephanie: [laughs] I didn't really believe her that that was what it was called. Larry: Being the father of five I thought it should have been called a father board. But anyhow... Stephanie: [laughs] Larry: You've been through a great deal. You're really building an interesting company. What is it about entrepreneurship that makes you tick, and why did you become an entrepreneur? Stephanie: Well, it's really interesting. I think the most exciting part of being an entrepreneur is the infinite blank canvas. Even when you have a product, an idea, a customer, anything, the next steps are never really clearly defined. Persistent problem‑solving and adjusting can be exhausting, but overall for me it's invigorating. It's how do we get to the next step? How do we keep moving forward? What ways do we need to be nimble and still meet our business objectives, our product objectives, our client objectives, the user objectives? It almost feels like the future is so undefined, and in that way I feel like it's really exciting. I often liken it to building a bridge while you're walking over it, which, of course, scares our business people to death. You should build a bridge on a [laughs] stable foundation. But what I mean by that is being an entrepreneur often allows you to be nimble enough to defy gratify and space as necessary. You're moving forward, but the future is undefined and you are still defining it. Lucy: Well, you're inventing it. I mean entrepreneurs are great inventors, right? Stephanie: Yeah, definitely. It's so exciting. Right now we share an office with actually four other startups. The collective energy is so interesting, just watching teams work together and just the steam coming off [laughs] the teams. It's exciting, and some of the things they talk about doing I think are impossible. I'm amazed at how those can be executed. Lucy: Well, now Stephanie, you mentioned your mother as having influenced you, really built your confidence, took the fear out of approaching technology and understanding it. Who else has influenced or supported you on your entrepreneurial career path? Stephanie: There are so many. I wish I had time to name them all. I can tell you the very first person who helped me grow as an employee or an executive or as a contributor to a team was by boss at Ericsson. Her name was Donna Campbell. She's a founder of Ericsson Cyberlab that was Ericsson's Digital Innovation Center. Donna had a very good and healthy way of looking at growth. We have a job that we have to do to make the trains run on time every day, but beyond that take time to learn more about this exciting new area that was mobile Internet or this new thing that has been so undefined because Telco previous to that the only content that existed was voice conversation, that people were talking to each other. It was just a voice channel. Then we were really looking at this next generation, which included data applications, content, anything. While we had all of our jobs to, what we would say, make the trains run on time, whatever that job was, she really challenged us to always think about learning about this new space and helping to define it. I sometimes even just with our team or our employees, I think I hear her voice in my head encouraging them to be as creative and also forward‑thinking and less constrained, that all ideas are really good ideas. Larry: I'm curious. With all the things you've done so far, not only with Ericsson but now with this newer type startup, what's the toughest thing that you've had to do in your career? Stephanie: [laughs] To be perfectly honest, it's probably less about my career itself and more about my personality. But I really believe that the toughest thing was really to learn to listen. That is in a big organization. That's with your own staff, employees, and partners, with your customers, with anything. I mean it's very easy to believe that you know what is the right way and to feel confident in your decisions and to try and push those things forward if you have a little bit of a bulldog personality, which I have. Still, I think the hardest thing for me to do is to really take a step back and realize that not only are all opinions really interesting and can spark new ideas for a collective group, but that you have to pay attention to what people are saying, and really listen. While that shouldn't be a tough thing in a career path, I think it adds growth as a human being, and applying that to my career. It's something I also believe that Donna really taught me, was that while maybe in the end your way is the right way, there are five, ten other people who can contribute and make it a better thing. Larry: Stephanie, we love your candor. Lucy: I have to say that this is such an important point. I can remember when I worked at Bell Labs that we took some amount of our imagination from "Rolling Stone Magazine." Who would figure? Stephanie: Right. Very cool. Lucy: Yeah. Around what we were doing with multimedia communication interfaces, and it came through this person who was sitting on the beach one day reading "Rolling Stone" on vacation. He brought the idea back to us at the Labs, and we at first didn't listen to him. Then we read the article. [laughter] Stephanie: It's interesting when you're really thinking about working through multimedia and technology, it's very easy as technologists to come from, "Well, this is the way it should work." It's really hard to think about, these are the other people on the value team, the people who create music. When you're thinking about all pieces of the value chain, it's really easy to focus on the technology. It's hard sometimes to remember that not only are, maybe, music companies involved, or people who listen, or all the other pieces along the way, to really bring them together. It's sometimes hard to get out of the tasks that we're doing today and think about the holistic view of the ecosystem. Lucy: I'll tell one other quick little story. At Bell Labs, in my organization, we finally realized that the Internet was real when a woman appeared on "The Donahue Show." Remember "The Donahue Show?" Stephanie: Yes. Lucy: OK. The sensation, of course, much more plain than it is today on some of those shows, but the sensation was that she was getting divorced because she had been talking with some other man on the Internet. They did a whole show. [laughter] Lucy: Stephanie, if you were sitting here with a young person and giving them advice about entrepreneurship, what advice would you give them? Stephanie: I actually think that the best advice I could give to anybody would be to take time to learn, to go and do internships, to find the salty dog in the organization who isn't always the oldest person in the organization, or the person who might be a little contrarian. Find those people and really learn about how you can work with them and how you can support them in all of their issues. I think internship is so important. I think coming to an organization with ideas is amazing. I think learning to collaborate and gain consensus amongst a huge number of people who are key influencers within the organizations are really, really good ways to learn how to contribute. I think becoming an intern in a larger organization, or even a smaller organization, and then making sure you touch all points of that organization, gives you a view of how an entrepreneur has to live. Some days I write business cases. Some days I do contracts. Some days I deal with end users. Some days I deal with angry clients on our side. Some days I'm troubleshooting why the applications have bugs in them. Really taking time to learn all of the aspects, all of the people in an organization, helps later to learn what it's like to be this utility person, which is all entrepreneurs. Some days you're accounting and some days you're dev, and all places in between. I think the best exposure is either (A) working in a big company where you intern, or working side by side with other entrepreneurs who pick up the six different hats a day, or even in an hour. Larry: I know a coming out of Ericsson and all, and that was great experience, but what is it about you personally that gives you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Stephanie: I think I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I am a little bit of a bulldog. I think when people say that people are like their dogs, I have a very, very, very adorable and stubborn French bulldog named Weesie. I think we share some characteristics, in that when we I want to do something, or think that it's something that is good for the company, or for end users, or for the organization, I can't let it go until we get there. Whether we have to take five different routes to get to the same place, I really think that having a vision and sticking to it, but not sticking to how you get there, is really important in being an entrepreneur. To be flexible and learn how you can do it differently, or any of those things is really important, but just owning what you want to do and, hopefully, the outcome is really important. I think as a characteristic, and while I don't necessarily want to be considered a puppy with a sock. I am sometimes gnawing on that sock until we really can get to the vision. We're flexible enough to think that the vision can change over time and evolve. Definitely, especially within Rogue Paper, because this is a business we wanted to build, to make TV exciting for viewers, but then also just to help media companies to engage with their users and also to drive their core business, which is broadcast advertising. Really thinking about how to keep bringing eyeballs back for them. We'd done a few things to get it to change as time goes on. But I think definitely we always stick to this vision that we really think mobile can help drive traditional media. Lucy: I think it's great advice to think about sticking to your vision and being flexible with the way you get there. That's a powerful piece of advice. Changing gears just a bit, you're very busy, obviously. You're working hard on your company. I'm sure you have a wonderful set of friends and family around you as well. Larry: And a bulldog. Lucy: And a bulldog. [laughter] Lucy: How do you bring balance into your personal and professional life? Stephanie: It is very difficult. It's one of the bigger challenges, I would say, that most entrepreneurs have. I think the most successful are those to whom work is play, to some degree. If you love what you do and it bleeds into your personal life, it's not necessarily a hassle to do that. It's still that you're so excited about what you're doing and you're consistently thinking about it. In that way, there is not a huge difference in work life in terms of happiness. It's exciting to work at work, it's exciting to think about it afterwards. But it's interesting. Every company has growth phases. There's an innovation phase. You go through these big bursts of time when the focus gets really hard. I have an agreement with people in my personal life that in those two or three months, or in this growth phase, that I might be checked out a little bit. Then after that period goes, or after we solve a big problem, then I'm back at the dinner table and being an active participant in life. I would say it's not a burden on me, but it can be lonely for the other people in your life. Fortunately, the bulldog doesn't really notice as long as you throw the ball. [laughter] Stephanie: But it is a challenge. It's something that I watch people do around me. My business partner and co‑founder, she works nine hours a day full time, really hard during those times. Then she's able to really turn it off afterwards. It's something that impresses me and I admire, but at the same time, my brain is going at all times. I don't necessarily turn it off as well, or go as intensely during the day, but it is definitely one of the bigger challenges. But I would say in partnership, we just have to have agreements that this is a head sound period and I'll be back in two weeks, and a better participant. Lucy: I think that's an important point, that you can in fact give the people who are around you a heads up that this is going on and that you will be back. Stephanie: Right. I think it's definitely something that I learned through relationships and friendships, that what was scary was just going away, even though I knew I'd be back. Lucy: Right. Exactly. Just that simple communication seems like a pretty good tool for one's tool chest. Stephanie: It's not acceptable to miss birthdays and big events, but for the daily check‑ins, or the high‑intensity communication, I just kind of wave my hand and say, "OK, I'll get back to you in a couple of weeks. We're really powering through something." Larry: Stephanie, you might want to check with your mother before you answer this next question. [laughter] Larry: That is, you've already been through and done a great deal. What's next for you? Stephanie: Rogue Paper is actually my third business. The first one is really focused on technology. I actually taught Pilates and had Pilates studios. My life has changed in these big ways. Going back to what we were talking about earlier, that was a system. Pilates is a system, the human body is a system. I was always intrigued by that. This technology, co‑viewing and television, it's applying the same framework to a different type of thing. I would say I'm so excited about Rogue Paper. We're still just about a year and a half old. I feel like we're just really at the precipice of some really interesting things that we can do for media companies and for users. I think mobile penetration is really getting bigger. It's hard for me to think about too much of the future. Maybe I'm a little too comfortable with ambiguity, but I feel like there's so much I want to do now that is at the intersection of mobile media and entertainment. We're really excited about growing. I'm sure my mother would say, "children." Larry: [laughs] Very good. [laughter] Stephanie: "Grandchildren." Lucy: [laughs] Thank you so much for talking to us. You have such a great company, very interesting work. We wish you the very best for the future. We'll be watching, both from a business perspective, and probably we'll be using your technology as well. Stephanie: That is so exciting. Lucy: Yeah. Really. Thanks very much, Stephanie. I want to remind listeners that they can hear this interview at w3w3.com, and ncwit.org, as well as all the other interviews that we've done. Larry: You betcha. Thank you very much, Stephanie. Stephanie: Thank you. Have a great day. Lucy: Thank you, Stephanie. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Stephanie BoyleInterview Summary: As a self-proclaimed “TV-holic,” Stephanie Boyle founded Rogue Paper, Inc. to use mobile applications and technology to help enhance traditional media broadcasts and create an engaging double screen experience for viewers. Release Date: August 29, 2011Interview Subject: Stephanie BoyleInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 22:06