Podcasts about Yeah So

Retrospectives shouldn’t suck the energy out of your team—or get skipped entirely. In this episode, Brian and Cort share how to fix the most common retro fails and announce two brand-new tools to help you run retros that actually work. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Cort Sharp break down why retrospectives are more than just a “Scrum box to check.” They’re the powerhouse behind continuous team improvement. From battling retro fatigue and quiet-room energy to creating psychologically safe environments and tying retrospectives to real results, they cover it all. Plus, Brian reveals the launch of two new on-demand courses—Better Retrospectives and The Retrospectives Repair Guide—designed to help teams stop skipping and start optimizing their retros. Whether you're a Scrum Master, coach, or facilitator, this episode is your practical guide to making retrospectives worth everyone’s time again. References and resources mentioned in the show: Cort Sharp Blog: Retrospectives With a Quiet Team Blog: Does a Scrum Team Need a Retrospective Every Sprint Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Scrum Repair Guide Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. Welcome back for another episode of Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner, but today we're gonna have a continuation of something we tried, a little experiment we tried a few weeks back here. I've got Mr. Court Sharp back with us. Welcome back in court. Cort Sharp (00:18) Hey, Brian, thanks for having me on again. I had lot of fun last time I was on here and it was a great discussion. So thanks for bringing me back. Brian Milner (00:21) Yeah. Yeah, it's, oh, absolutely. Yeah, know, got a lot of people said, hey, we kind of like that court guy. Kind of like hearing from court. So we wanted to have court back, you know, because you guys told us that you liked him. And we also wanted to have him back because we just thought this format kind of worked for various reasons. And last time we kind of hit on some things that were kind of more hot button issues of the day. things that have been flowing through social media or other things around Agile. But we wanted to have a little bit more of a focus for today's episode. And we're going to focus really on the topic of retrospectives. And maybe make a little announcement here along the way as we go along. But we're actually going to switch roles here a little bit. I'm going to kind of pass the ball over to Court. And I'm going let Court drive this, just like he did in the last episode. Ball's in your court. Ha ha, get it? Cort Sharp (01:18) Ha ha, court, there you go. Well thanks, Brian. Once again, I love coming on here, I love chatting with you. And like you said, yeah, we're gonna be talking about retrospectives today, mostly because I have been struggling with answering questions about retrospectives. I think this is one of the more common meetings within Scrum that just gets skipped over, just people don't find value in it. Brian Milner (01:42) Yeah. Cort Sharp (01:43) or people just struggle with understanding why we have retrospectives. And sometimes I get a little slipped up and I struggle with answering the questions about why do we do this? So can you give me some clarification? Why do we have retrospectives? Why do they matter? Brian Milner (01:58) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a great question. And I think everyone should, should, you know, want to know that answer. If you're doing this, you one of things I say in class all the time is, you know, it's important to know the purpose behind the meetings that we have in scrum. If you don't know the purpose, then, you know, that, how are we gonna, how are we gonna have a successful meeting? How are we gonna get the most out of it? so yeah, it's, it's a funny kind of meeting, because all the other meetings and scrum are, are really, around one ultimate purpose and that's building the increment. This is not, right? This is sort of a timeout. It's an intentional kind of timeout to step away and say, all right, now that we've done that, how did it go? What kind of happened along the way? I think it's a vitally important meeting. And when I hear people sometimes say, is it okay to skip it or should we do it once ever so often? you know, again, I try to be pragmatic and say, you know, I don't, I don't know any possible situation out there, but, you know, I would tell you, I would advise you not to, I don't think that's the right path to go. I know scrum doesn't teach to do that. I think it's really, really important because it is that, that moment of let's pause for a little bit. Let's figure out what we need to do differently and then let's actually take a step to do it. There's actually an interesting little background for this. So I'm going to take a little side trip here. Retrospectives actually come from an idea that has been around for a while that actually started kind of in lean manufacturing, some of the things that came out of Japan. There was actually a phrase that they would use on the assembly line at the auto assembly plants there in Japan. They referred to this concept of Kaizen. Kaizen was kind of a, I don't speak Japanese, but what I understand is the word loosely kind of translates to good change. And they had this concept there on the assembly line floor that anyone who was on the floor had access to the big red button that could stop the entire thing. They could stop the entire assembly line, which you know, on an auto assembly plant, that's a huge deal to stop the entire production. And they were very deliberate about it and said, no, we want everyone to have access to that because the phrase they use was the Kaizen comes first. And what they instructed the employees was if you along the way, as you're doing your job, if you see something that we could change that would make it more efficient, that would be a better way of doing this, then we want you to hit the red button because we want to implement whatever that change is as soon as possible. The sooner we implement the change, the longer we have as a benefit, like an investment. The earlier I invest, the more I get as a return. So the same thing here, the earlier I invest in this good change, the longer I have to have a return from it. So that phrase, the Kaizen comes first, is sort of a central thing that we think about here with retrospectives. It's identifying those good changes. there's actually even an intention behind it that it doesn't go on the product backlog. It goes in the next sprint backlog. Because we don't want to have any even inkling of deprioritizing something that comes out of a retrospective. It's that Kaizen portion. So we want to make sure that comes first. So yeah, it absolutely is going to go into the next sprint. Whatever we decide is the most important thing, we're going to make an impact on it in the next sprint. So that's why I think that it's the most important thing for us is it's the engine that really drives continual improvement. And without it, I think teams stagnate. I think they just get kind of stuck in a rut. problems that we have, we just continually repeat. if we don't have the time to stop an exam. Cort Sharp (06:00) Yeah. All right. So I kind of got one bigger idea from there. And for whatever reason, when you were like, we gave everyone the red button to stop the assembly line. And that's kind of, we're stopping, we're pausing, we're inspecting, and then we're going to come up with a plan to adapt. Whatever reason, this phrase stuck in my head, it just popped out to me. But it sounds like we're giving power to the people. Brian Milner (06:06) Okay. Cort Sharp (06:26) where we're, you know, the team has the power, the people have the power to say, whoa, let's stop here. Let's hang on a second. Let's take some time and let's figure out a better way to move forward. And from that, I just think of sports. I think of sports teams. We're in the middle of March Madness as we're recording this right now. And I can pretty much guarantee you that every single one of those teams who's advancing on past, I think round one is going on right now, so passing on through round one, they're probably watching some film on their opponents. They're trying to see, what are they gonna do? What are some plays? How can we kind of counteract it? But more often than not, I would wager, I'm not a gambling man, but I'd wager, that they're looking at their own film and they're trying to see what did we do well in this game that got us the win? What can we improve? so that we could maybe have a little bit more of a bigger margin of victory. And what is it that we should probably stop doing? What is there that wasn't working out? Maybe our pick and rolls were not good, maybe we weren't executing well on those, or not to get too into basketball terms there, but maybe we should stop shooting so many threes or something like that. I don't know, right? But yeah, that's, yeah. Brian Milner (07:42) I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right that, you know, sometimes we think this retrospective thing is maybe, is this just a weird thing that we do in software development? No, this happens in a lot of professions. There's a lot of different professions out there that take time to analyze. And by the way, I'll throw this out there as well, because you mentioned kind of sports. Sometimes people will, I've encountered teams at times that think, You know what, we're good enough. We don't need to do this anymore. This is really only for teams when they're starting. We don't need to have retrospectives once we've become mature. Well, to them, I'd say, well, then why do championship teams continue to watch their film? Right? If a team won the Super Bowl last year, don't you think that they still go through training camp and get ready for the season? Yeah, they absolutely do. But they're on top of their game. So if they think it's necessary when they're on top of their game, is there really a moment that we would be so on top of our game that we have nothing left to learn and get better at? I'd say no. I think that there's always something that we can get better at. And I think that's a great analogy to kind of drive that home. Cort Sharp (08:54) Yeah, awesome. I totally agree with you there. Even just outside of the team sports world, I come from a more individual sport background. And it's so important to take some time and just reflect on, how did I perform? How was my performance, even on an individual level, so that I can take some action steps throughout this next period of training or work or whatever it is that I'm doing so that I can make the next next performance or the next time I race or the next time I get out there on the court or on the field or whatever. That's how I can make that next time better than this last time. So awesome. Thanks for clarifying. Thanks for. Brian Milner (09:28) Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, no, no, it's a great question. I think this is, probably time for us to kind of let the cat out of the bag here a little bit and just say, one of the reasons we wanted to focus on it for the episode is, drum roll, we kind of have a couple of courses coming out. here that we're going to offer at Mountain Goat Software that you can take around retrospectives. They're on demand videos that I worked on. They're two different separate courses. And we just thought this was an area that really needed some focus and attention and we were getting lots of questions around it. So we always try to listen to what you guys are telling us. And what we were hearing was, this is where you wanted us to focus. yeah, not a lot of details that I'm going to say right out of the gate. But yeah, we do want to kind of announce that those are coming here very, very soon. Cort Sharp (10:22) Yeah, so if I heard you right, I think you said this, but there's two courses coming out, right? Okay, cool. We're letting that out of the bag. Brian Milner (10:28) That's correct, yeah, two. right, right. I mean, you might think, one course I can understand, but two? Yeah, there's so much material that there was too much for one. And people could not consume all that in one go. And so we created two and kind of found different aims, different goals for both of them. to target what people were really asking for. So yeah, there are two separate courses. One that's going to be called Better Retrospectives, and another one that's called Retrospectives Repair Guide. So yeah, you can sell just from the names, kind of taking two different approaches here on focusing on retros. Cort Sharp (11:07) That's so awesome to hear that we have two separate types of courses that solve kind of two problems. So what were the reasons why you decided or Mountain Goat decided, hey, we probably need to make these to help solve some pain points. What were those pain points and what are these common struggles that you're seeing? Brian Milner (11:19) Yeah. Yeah, completely fair question, right? I mean, why didn't we do one on sprint planning? Or why didn't we do one on daily scrums or whatever, right? Well, maybe we will in the future. I think the kind of genesis of this idea or why we decided to focus on it was we periodically survey users. We watch what people do when they come to the site, what they search for. And one of our top search terms and one of the top search areas that we've seen over the years, really, it's been consistent, is around retrospectives. So we know that's an area people want to know more about and want to get help with. So that gave us the first little inkling that this might be something to focus on. That led us to doing just a free open webinar that we did. I hosted that, I put together a presentation to give some tips around it and help people, just a short little presentation, but wanted to just give some really quick tips people could apply. And we had over a thousand people sign up for that. not, I shouldn't say that. We had over a thousand people attend that. just, lots of people sign up and don't come, but. We had over thousand people who showed up and attended to hear that. And that kind of blew us away. think, wow, this is really, know, people made time in their day to come and listen to this, you know, short little webinar on it. There's interest here. And with a thousand people, we didn't have nearly enough time there on that webinar to answer everyone's questions and get through everything that was coming at us. But, you know, we love data. So. We pulled all that data from all the questions that had been submitted and people had presented to us and grouped them, categorized them, tried to sort them through and try to find what's the biggest kind of pressure, pain points that people are having that they wanna know answers to. And that's what led us to really create these courses is there were reoccurring themes, right? There was a kind of set of things that are common amongst people. common issues, common problems that people are having, common root causes of those problems. And we just thought, this is doable. It's not an impossible thing to fix. There are actually practical, real ways of solving these things. And we wanted to give people solutions to the things they wanted to hear about. So that's why we decided to focus on retrospectives. Cort Sharp (13:50) Awesome, sweet. That's still crazy to hear. I knew that you had a thousand people or a little over a thousand people attend that live stream, I think is what you did, right? Because it was like a YouTube live stream or something like that. That's still mind blowing to me that there was that much turnout and... Brian Milner (14:09) Actually, I just wanna say, I don't know that it actually even was on YouTube. That's what makes it even more kind of impressive to me is people had to like get a link and go into it. So it wasn't just, hey, I'm flipping through YouTube on my lunch break and it turned up. It was people who deliberately said, no, I'm making an appointment to go to that. Yeah. Cort Sharp (14:29) Man, that's even, yeah, that's crazier to me too. That's awesome. That tells me, yeah, there's a ton of demand for this, right? So can you give me just a brief overview without oversharing or sharing a little too much about what each course kind of offers and what problems they're working to solve or we're solving within each course? Brian Milner (14:31) Yeah. Sure. Yeah, I guess it's probably important to know the strategy of both of them and why there's two. As I said, there's just a lot of material, so it was too much to fit into one. But I tried to follow the pattern in creating these that we've established at Mountain Goat with previous classes. So the first one that I put together, we titled Better Retrospectives. And that's following the pattern that we've done with other things like better user stories. So better retrospectives, the focus is sort of the expert deep dive on retrospectives. We go deep on the meaning behind things and kind of facilitation techniques that are useful to do, patterns you can use in creating a retrospective, ways you can create brand new. themes for your retrospective that no one's ever done before in the past because it's yours. It's something you created on your own. And just kind of all the ins and outs of how to really make a retrospective work and be productive, produce things that actually make differences on your team. So that was better retrospectives. But we wanted to then address head on those most common questions that people have. Again, try to follow the pattern that we've established with some previous things here at Mountain Goat. Mike has a course that I took years ago called Scrum Repair Guide. And it was about the most common problems that Scrum teams have. so I follow that pattern here. And the second course is called Retrospective's Repair Guide. And what we did was we took those highest volume asked questions, the most common questions we got from that webinar. got just the top 10 and said, these are the biggies. These are the big ones that people are asking about that really want to know the answer to. And we put together a repair guide course for it so that people can maybe consume that in a little bit different way. If I'm having one big problem right now and I need an answer to that, or maybe I have two or three problems, I'm not having all the problems, but I need an answer. I need help with this big thing that's going on with my team. We wanted to get that to them as soon as possible. So the retrospective repair guide is that ability for someone to look at our list of top 10 questions. And you'll probably find three or four of them on there that you'd say, oh, yeah, that's one I've experienced. Yeah, that's one we're having right now. And then you can just kind of to the chase and get right to where it is that you need to get help. And then practically go and make those changes immediately. So better retrospectives. The expert course, Deep Dive on Retrospectives, makes you an expert at delivering them and working with them. Retrospectives Repair Guide, more for those finding the solutions to the problems you're having right now. Cort Sharp (17:37) Awesome. I want to kind of double click a little bit into the retrospective repair guide. Man, tongue twister, right? The retro repair guide. Can you share just like one or two, maybe three of those questions that are answered or some of those bigger questions that were asked that are answered and that you give a solution to and a very clear solution to within that course? Brian Milner (17:43) Yeah, it is a little. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. just know for each one of these, it's not a, the answer is, here's a sentence. Each one of these, we go really deep on how to answer that and strategies. And I give you multiple things that you can do. Because a lot of these maybe even have multiple root causes to them that could be causing them. And there could be something different you might need to do to solve that for your team. But you know, Like one of the biggest questions that we heard, probably the most popular question that we got was, how do you handle retrospectives when you have a quiet team? When you have a team of people that are a little more introverted or shy, not uncommon with a group of software developers. So how do you get them a little bit out of their shell or how do you get them to just feel safe enough there to actually contribute? That was a big one. Um, you know, a big one for our, our day and age is how do you handle retrospectives when you have people that are remote? Uh, you know, do you have an entirely remote team? Do you have people that are, uh, you know, parked your team? Part of your team is, is in-house part of your team is remote. Uh, how do you, how do you handle that split? Um, that was another big one. Um, you know, how do you handle it when you're, you have a team that just hates retrospectives? Um, you know, how do you, how do you, uh, How do you get your team to start really making progress, real progress, from the things that you talk about in your retrospectives? So these are just a couple of them. we really thought that these, for each one of them, as I went through each one of them, I thought, yeah, this is a big one. This is one I get questions about all the time in class. So there was none of them that I looked at and thought, this is a filler. Am I going to make it to 10? No, mean, it was hard to limit it to 10, you know? But yeah, we limited it to 10 and all of them are really, really important ones. Cort Sharp (19:47) You Yeah, nothing but heavy hitters here. Nothing but bangers. Here you go. Yeah, that's it. Awesome. OK, well, thanks for the overview. Thanks for introducing these courses. That last question there, what do I do? How do I manage a team within my retrospectives when they hate going to retrospectives or despise that? That'd be super useful for me. Man, I might buy this course right now. Brian Milner (19:55) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Ha Yeah. Cort Sharp (20:23) But I would like to, we strive to have some pragmatic approaches. We strive to provide practical, immediately useful tips on this podcast. I know that's a big point for this podcast that you really work on and you really focus on. Do you have any just practical, immediately useful tips? Let's start out, I guess. This might be a little teaser, a little preview. You might repeat something that you gave out into the Retro's course there, the Retro Repair Guide. With quiet teams, can you just share something that I can immediately take away and go off if I have a really quiet team and it's like pulling teeth to get them to talk and participate in Retro's? Can you give me just some useful tips or something that I can go away with? Brian Milner (21:08) Yeah. Cort Sharp (21:13) after listening to this episode and go off and use with my team to help my quiet team be a little more active and a little more beneficial. Show them that, this retro is for you. What can I do to work with my quiet team here? Brian Milner (21:29) Yeah, yeah, no, mean, how can I tease the number one thing without giving any kind of advice on it, right? And no, I mean, we're doing this because we want to get this information out route. We want to help teams to be successful with this. So no, I don't mind at all going into some things that might help there on it. There'll be much more in the course because I just have more time to do that. I think that the number one thing when you have a quiet team is trying to understand the why behind it. So for starters, I think it's important for us to understand that there are different personality types. I mentioned things like introvertedness. There are people who are more introverted than others. And if that's a of a spectrum in itself. There are people who are extremely introverted, and there's people who are only mildly introverted. Not to mention, one of my favorite topics, thinking about kind of different neurodivergent traits and how they interact and participate and things of that nature. So all that's to say, that I think the number one thing that we have to do is know our team. We have to understand who is in the room. Because I think we make the mistake a lot of the times of, I'm gonna just put together a retrospective. Let me go find out what that guy on YouTube said about doing a retrospective. yeah, that was a fun little theme that he came up with. Let me go put that in place. But that may not match at all. the personality of your team. It may not match the way that they prefer to interact. If I have a team full of introverts, I'm not gonna do a big role play kind of exercise in my retrospectives, because everyone's gonna be uncomfortable and everyone's gonna shut down. They're gonna go into defensive kind of stance, right? So I think that's the number one thing I'd say is, first of all, just understand and respect. respect the differences there in personalities to understand that they're not broken or in need of repair in any way. If they are quieter, that's just who they are. That's just how they're made. So I think that's part of it, right? I think part is that you have to understand your team. But there are other possible root causes here as well. One of the biggest is they could be quiet because they don't feel safe to actually speak in that room. That's a huge one, right? And it's so important. If they come into that room and they are fearful that what they say in that room is going to be reported outside the room to someone else, or they're going to be made fun of in that room for voicing their opinion or belittled in some way for it, well, That's a killer to a retrospective. If there's not that sense of safety in the room, doesn't matter how brilliant your pattern is for the retrospective or what great idea you came up with for it. If I don't feel like this is a safe space where I can speak up and not be made fun of or not fear retribution for something I've said, I'm not gonna speak up. whether I'm an extrovert or an introvert. It doesn't really matter my personality type at that point because the fear is what's driving everyone in that room. So I think you have to maybe even gauge the team. Maybe even ask them in an anonymous poll. I've done this before by just giving slips of paper and everyone puts in a hat. And you can do something like a safety check where you say, give me a number from one to five. five being the highest and one being the lowest, how safe do you feel today in this room to speak honestly without fear of retribution or being made fun of, that sort of thing? And it could very much surprise you what the answer is. That's actually an activity that I repeat periodically when I have a team because I want to chart it. I want to see where they are now. I want to see if it goes up or down. If there's some kind of a change, how does that affect it? We had, we lost a team member or two team members and we had new people come on. Safety is going to drop because we have new people. God forbid if we have somebody who's an outsider who insists on coming into it. I try my best to keep them out, but hey, if my boss says, well, I'm overruling you, I'm coming in. Well, are you gonna quit immediately because that happens? Probably not. What can you do? Make it transparent, the effect. You can say, hey, we periodically take these safety checks. So here today, I took another safety check. Our normal average is 4.2. Today, it dropped to 2.1. Why do you think that happened? It's data. So I think safety is another big reason. Cort Sharp (26:13) Right. Right. Brian Milner (26:18) So let's, personality type, gotta understand personality type, gotta make sure the environment's safe. And by the way, kind of corollary to that is not only that it's safe, but that their opinion matters. So if they speak up and say things and no one pays attention to them, no one listens to them, well again, you're telling them your idea doesn't matter, learn this lesson, next time don't speak up, right? Cort Sharp (26:30) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (26:44) So they've got to have a safe space. And then I think you've got to match your activities to your team. You've got to find ways of connecting to them that will feel comfortable for them, that make them feel. I say this all the time in classes, facilitation, the root word in facilitation is facilis. It's a Latin word. means to make easy. So we're facilitating a retrospective. Make it easy. If your team doesn't want to role play, and you've got an activity that's a role play thing, then that's not easy. That's difficult for who they are. But if your team, another kind of difference, are they verbal processors? Do they need to talk things out to find a solution? Or do they need quiet space? that they need introspective time to find solutions. If that's the case, well, maybe I start with something like quiet writing. I don't even have an activity where they're talking to each other at the beginning. So I think that's third thing I'd throw out there is to say, Once you know your team, make sure you are matching the format, matching what you come up with for that retrospective to the personality of your team. It's hard, right? Someone can't walk in off the street and deliver a great retrospective to a team they don't know. But the good news is you know your team, right? You work with them all the time. You're the expert on this. Cort Sharp (28:08) you Yeah, yeah, as a more introverted person, nothing sounds worse to me than trying to, to do any kind of role playing, putting myself in some position that I just don't normally put myself into and I'm not comfortable with right that that is not my jam. That is not my thing. Brian Milner (28:27) Yeah. Yeah, and can you blame it when, if that happens, can you blame the team for saying they hate the retrospectives and that they don't want to do them anymore? Yeah. Cort Sharp (28:39) No, not at all. Not at all. If my scrum master came to me and said, right, we're going to, Brian, you're acting as this person, Court, you're acting as this, and we're going to reenact little Romeo and Juliet, bring that into there in this. And it's like, what? No, this isn't valuable. Brian Milner (28:47) You Right. Yeah, it's one thing to say, we're going to pretend to be each other and talk through. But it's another thing to say, pretend you are a peanut. you're like, that kind of thing. When you're an employee, you're like, god, really? I have to be a peanut now? Great, great. Yeah, no, this is fun. It's that kind of thing that if you don't, maybe your team would enjoy that kind of thing. If so, then match it to them. Cort Sharp (29:10) Yeah. Yeah. Brian Milner (29:19) They're not in that mode. No, no, no, no, no, no. Cort Sharp (29:23) Yep. Well, awesome. think I have a couple more questions for you here. Should be relatively quickly, right? Thanks for giving a little preview and giving some practical advice for what we can do to help our more quiet teams. But I want to take a step back. I know we double clicked into that one course, but I just want to take a step back a little bit. how do I decide which courses is right for me? Brian Milner (29:28) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cort Sharp (29:48) Do you have any guidelines for that? Any advice for if I'm interested in both courses, but I don't know which one would be a little more beneficial for me? How do I make that choice? Brian Milner (29:58) Yeah, that would be an extremely difficult decision to make because you have to really know these courses intimately, think, to make that, or maybe not intimately, but you probably have to dive a little bit deeper into what the agenda is for each one to kind of know the answer. But here's the good thing. When we're launching these, I can tell you this as well. We're going to be launching it as sort of a two for one. So. The good news is when we, know, for the initial launch of this, that's going to be the bonus for being in the first group is you don't have to decide. You'll get them both and you can then, you know, choose on your own. can dip in and see, you know, if one's better for you than the other, great. But you can consume it any way you want. And, you know, I'm just really excited for people to get to see the stuff and to hear it. I think there's some. there's some stuff that's really gonna help people in it. Cort Sharp (30:47) Awesome, great. Helping my decision fatigue there, Brian. That's great. Wonderful. One less choice that I have to make. Well, great. Awesome. That's kind all the questions that I have for you. Are there any kind of key takeaways or anything that you want to single out about retrospectives as a whole or anything about these courses that are going to be offered here anytime soon or anything like that? Brian Milner (30:50) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I wanted to do this kind of an episode about this because, you know, I feel like the listeners here to our podcast, you guys know me, you know, the kind of stuff that I talk about. And, you know, I wanted you to be the ones who kind of heard this and knew about it first. I think it's going to be really beneficial and it's going to really kind of turbo charge a lot of teams. We talked about why retrospectives are important. Well, as I said, it's the engine for that continual improvement. If you don't have it, then the team stagnates. If you do have it and they buy in and this is, they're really all in on that Kaizen continual. improvement, know, Kaizen comes first mindset that kind of comes along with it. Then they look forward to this meeting. It's not just, know, something to check the box at the very end of our sprint, but it's actually, you know, when are we going to have that retrospective? I've got some stuff I want to talk about and that's our time now. You know, we can shut out the rest of the world. We can shut out, you know, everyone who's not here in our team. And now we can focus on us. You know, the question I often ask the teams when I do this is, do retrospectives is, what would it take for us to be the team everyone else wishes they were on? And, you know, that's really what you can accomplish through a retrospective is you can be that team, everyone else in the group and the organization looks at and goes, man, I wish I was on that team. That team's the, that team looks like a great team to be on. You know, I know there's, we're not given a lot of details here because this isn't We're not opening sales to this at the time that you hear this, when this podcast comes out. This is just a preview. I wanted to announce it here in the podcast first and let you guys know about it. Stay tuned. We're gonna have some stuff coming out soon. You can come to our website, mountaingoatsoftware.com and you'll find more information about this. But stay tuned here to the podcast as well. We're going to talk about some other things around podcasts in the next few weeks. we'll let you know when it's going to be open. I'll tell you as well, this is going to be a limited time thing. It's not something that we're launching and then kind of keeping open forever. This is something that we're going to launch. And there's a window for you to actually purchase this. receive both these at the same time. We'll talk about pricing and all that other stuff later down the road. But I just wanted you guys to know that these two things were coming. And hopefully, that gets you excited. And you can start now saying, hey, boss, there's something I'm going to be asking you for here for the training budget or something somewhere along the way. So stay tuned. We'll have more information here about it in the coming weeks. Cort Sharp (33:51) Yeah So we're starting the hype train now. Hype train is starting to pull out of the station. And the next station it comes into, it's only going to be there for a limited time. So make sure you get on board and get on with this. Because these sound like really awesome classes. And they sound like a really great way to either elevate where you're at already or where I'm at already for retrospectives and whatever techniques I'm using. I know we didn't talk much or really at all. Brian Milner (34:01) Yeah, exactly. Cort Sharp (34:26) other than the title of the Better Retrospectives course. But having been through the Better User Stories course, that really elevated my ability to write and facilitate user story work or story writing workshops. But it allowed me to be more effective on the user stories front. if it's anything following that trend line, which it sounds like it kind of is, that Better Retrospectives course sounds like a fantastic way to elevate. Brian Milner (34:46) Yeah. Cort Sharp (34:53) my ability to not only facilitate, but also just get more value out of retrospectives. And then the retro repair guide. Awesome starting point. Sounds like it's a great spot if I'm struggling with anything. Really, really common. Well, not really common. The biggest questions, biggest problems that are seen throughout retrospectives. Great starting point in order to. help myself grow and get up there. And the fact that I don't have to choose between the two, that's fantastic to me. makes me really excited. Brian Milner (35:25) Yeah. Bonus, right? Yeah. Well, and I do want to throw out there as well. know, the pattern here, I'm copying Mike, right? This is what Mike Kona has done previously. And I'm with you, Court. When I took the Better User Stories course, you know, I really wanted to go deep on user stories. I wanted to understand them at a level that I just didn't previously. And I wanted to know the ins and outs. I was ready to go deep on it. And I agree with you. did the same thing for me. It helped me to really fully understand kind of what this method is and how to get the most out of it. So that was my idea when I wanted to copy that into the retrospectives. I wanted the same thing. I wanted people who were at that point where they're ready to go deep. Here it is, right? It's ready for you. And retrospectives, the repair guide as well, I was a consumer of Mike's Scrum Repair Guide before I joined Mountain Goats, you know, when I was a Scrum Master on a team. And I remember when I saw that course and I saw the list of things that, you know, he was going to talk about in that course. There were two or three of them on that list that I just said, yeah, star that one, star this one, like that. I need that answer. I just remember that feeling of, I really need the answer to this. So my thought at that time was, whatever this is, It's worth it because I don't know how to do this on my team right now. We're having this problem and I need it fixed. So I need guidance on how to do this. And I know there's people out there that are gonna feel that way about some of these topics they're gonna see that we have in the repair guide. So all that's just to say, it's from the point of view of someone who benefited from that pattern, you know, from Mike and other courses. And I'm hopefully going to be able to do that for people here with retrospectives as well. Cort Sharp (37:15) Well, I'm excited. So a couple action points for anyone else who's interested in this. Stay tuned, right? Stay tuned for future episodes on the podcast. Keep an eye out on stuff. Can they visit mountainghostsoftware.com right now and sign up for a list or anything or get any pre-emails or anything like that or not quite yet? Brian Milner (37:33) I don't think there's anything that you can do at the moment. mean, if you're on our email list, I think that's probably the best thing you can do. You sign up for our email list. You can do that pretty easily at mountandgoatsoftware.com. And that'll keep you informed when we send out our newsletters. We're gonna have information on it there as well. But it's kind of like, you you get those emails sometimes that just say nothing right now, but, so nothing right now, but, you know, kind of just... File this away, know this is, you in the next few weeks, you're gonna hear more about this and then it'll be that limited window that you can actually, you know, take advantage of it. Cort Sharp (38:07) Awesome. Yeah, so keep listening in, keep an eye out, and we'll keep giving you some practical approaches, practical tips that you can use to go into your next retrospective. Maybe your team isn't the quiet team, but maybe they're the ones that just don't really like retros. know, Brian, thanks for helping me out with my quiet teams, or any time that I interact with quiet teams, and even the ones that are a little more just passive and don't. Brian Milner (38:28) Nah. Cort Sharp (38:34) don't really see the value in retros. Thanks for sharing those tips and for helping me out with all the teams that I work with. So I appreciate that. Thank you. Brian Milner (38:42) Yeah, absolutely. If you can't tell, I'm really excited about it. I can't wait for people to start diving into this stuff. more than anything, I can't wait for it to start to make a difference in teams. Cort Sharp (38:53) I'm excited, Brian. I can't wait. I'm stoked. Brian Milner (38:54) you

Kiera is joined by Mike and Stephanie Walton of Walton Family Dentistry in Bardstown, Kentucky. For the past almost year, the Waltons have not had a hygienist in their office. They talk with Kiera about why they were struggling to keep one staffed, what led them to stop having one in the first place, and how they efficiently and profitably operate to this day without a hygienist. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera Dent (00:05.844) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera and today is such a special episode. I am so excited. I am being joined by our incredible clients. I've got Mike and Stephanie Walton. They are running such an incredible practice. They are doing something so different, so unique, and I just wanted them to come on and share just about themselves. I think they're just a great example for so many offices out there. So Stephanie and Mike, welcome to the show. How are you today?   Mike Walton (00:30.602) Doing great, doing great. Thanks for having us on.   Stephanie (00:33.948) Thank you so much.   Kiera Dent (00:35.114) Yes, absolutely. And I'll do better. I'll ask like Mike this, Stephanie that, because I know when there's three of us on here, can get a little funny, I'll just have Mike, I'll have you kind of kick this off. You two are incredible. I finally met you for the first time. We've worked together for so long. Tiffanie's your main consultant, but it was really dreamy when I got to meet you in June at the Dennis Money Show with Dennis Advisors.   Stephanie (00:39.209) .   Kiera Dent (00:59.07) So super fun, I'm excited to see you guys in person really soon too, but Mike, I'll have you just kick us off, kind of tell us a little bit about your practice, where you guys are at, kind of the dynamics of what you guys do in your practice. So the audience gets to know Mike and Stephanie Walton's office.   Mike Walton (01:11.809) Great. So we are central Kentucky, little south of Louisville. So we're in a town called Bardstown. That's the bourbon capital of the world and the most beautiful small town award that we've received as well.   Stephanie (01:27.244) In America.   Kiera Dent (01:28.69) I agree. And you also bring the best candies and treats with you. Like they loaded us up when they came and met us. Bourbon Central, it was amazing. It was great. I was so like, it was so, the Carmel Stephanie, top notch, incredible. That was my favorite. So thank you.   Mike Walton (01:43.318) Well, and Kara, have to say, you know, when I first saw you there, you know, of course we've seen each other on the think tank and, I saw you across the room and I was like, Hey, there's Kara. And I was like, she probably don't know who I am. We've never met before officially.   Stephanie (01:44.759) You're welcome. Majestics.   Kiera Dent (01:46.961) Exactly.   Kiera Dent (02:01.086) I did it. Well, cause you know, you guys can see Mike, like there's video of him, Mike always, so we have, meant in think tank, which is our doctor mastermind every the first Tuesday of every month that we have. And Mike always wears his Yankees hat. Always. He always has a hat on. So even tonight I'm like, Mike, what are you doing? I'm not even going to recognize you. And you're right. I was like, where's your Yankees hat? That's fair. All right. So you guys are in Kentucky.   Mike Walton (02:19.4) I'm saving it for next season.   Kiera Dent (02:27.103) Tell us kind of the dynamics of your practice. How long have you been practicing? What does this practice look like?   Mike Walton (02:30.026) So I've been practicing, it'll be 22 years in June. Started out in partnerships and then went out on my own about six years ago. So we are a small office where you are about five operatories. It's one doctor. And then right now it's four assistants, two front desk and then office manager.   Stephanie (02:35.246) you   Kiera Dent (02:56.552) And did you hear there's no hygienist, which is what we're going to lead into of how Mike went from a hygiene practice where he had hygienist to the shortage. was crunch time. Like he couldn't figure out how to, like it was so hard to hire. And so that's what I'm super excited to talk about. There was literally four assistants, no hygienist. Stephanie, tell us about your place. How are you in the practice? How did you get involved? I mean, you must really love Mike to be working there. You're even like scrubbed up over there, girl. It's not like you just shop. Tell us kind of how you.   Stephanie (03:07.129) you   So I could tell that he was kind of unhappy at the last place and I was like, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. And so we started doing some research about how to open an office because they don't tell you a lot of business in dental school. And I had my own career and we had three little kids, but I wanted him to be happy. And we found ideal practices and they helped us open the office up and it was well worth the money.   And so that's how I got in there with him. And it was just he and I and an assistant and a hygienist when we started. And now we have two wonderful girls at the front desk. And so they do the majority of running the day-to-day stuff and I get to do the stuff that expands the practice and things like that. So we've come a long way, especially with your all's help.   Kiera Dent (04:16.54) amazing. Tiffanie loves you. She raves about you. guys, every time you're on her coaching call schedule, Tiffanie is like, I get to talk to the Waltons today. Like truly, it has been such an incredible relationship. She adores you. And Stephanie, I love that you love Mike so much. And I think that that's just so telling of who you two are as a couple, what your practice is, the vibe you have, really just coming together as a couple. So now everyone is wondering and I'm wondering, like, how did you guys even come to this decision to have no hygiene? And how is that even like   operating. Like I need to know this because when you mentioned it on think tank, I didn't realize because I'm not on all of your calls that you literally had zero hygienist in your practice and it's been that way for a little while. So whomever wants to like take this on, I don't know whose brainy idea it was, like how did you guys even come to this decision and how is it going and give me all the things.   Mike Walton (05:04.002) Well, I think what kind of led to, know, after COVID came through, you know, the number of hygienists went way down and, you know, it was constant turnover. It was, you know, they were in such demand and every office needed them that it was constantly training and getting them adapted to how we like things done. And then   Stephanie (05:19.492) Okay.   Mike Walton (05:30.66) somebody else would make a better offer and then they would go. And you know, their schedule would be booked out six to eight months and they'd give you a two week notice. And it was super stressful because you know, then we're faced with, well, we're running an ad, there's no way we're gonna get somebody to replace you in two weeks. And it got to the point where it was like, do we reschedule all these people or do we squeeze them in? And we were squeezing them in.   Kiera Dent (05:34.666) Mm.   Kiera Dent (05:42.377) Yep.   Mike Walton (06:00.778) And it was stress and stress and stress and more stress. And then we got to the point where we're like, we can't do this anymore. and you know, you'd go through the cycle where you'd finally get somebody to bite on your ad, you'd get them in the office. And then, you know, I think about every maybe three or four months, it was turnover. And we were going through the same thing again. And we finally got, we're like, how do we, how do we get out of this terrible cycle of.   Stephanie (06:19.136) you   Mike Walton (06:30.441) of one, having to train, and two, having to deal with a six month schedule that's booked out for a two week notice. And the team was feeling that too. It wasn't just us because they were picking up a lot of the slack. And so we were like, gosh, if we keep doing this, they're going to get frustrated. We're going to lose the whole team. And then what are we going to do?   Stephanie (06:53.736) And we have a wonderful team. The  assistants are wonderful and the two at the front desk, shout out to Haley and Jessica. They are great.   Kiera Dent (07:03.346) Yeah. Stephanie, how did you feel going through this? Did you agree with Mike? Were you like, let's just cut bait and try and see if we can figure this out? Or were you like, let's not do that. I mean, the traditional model is we need hygienists. We know we need two hygienists for every doctor. Like, Stephanie, what was your take? Because I think if I was in your shoes, I have a reasonable level of risk, but I'm also very risk adverse. And so how is it for you? I mean, this is your livelihood. You two are a couple in this. You went away. You've given up your career. You're in this now. Stephanie, how is that for you?   making this decision to go hygiene-less in a practice.   Stephanie (07:36.508) you end up with kind of your opposite when you marry you know and so I'm the kind of like let's don't miss the boat and he's like that let's not rock the boat kind of person so so this was my idea like I was like   Kiera Dent (07:48.042) Okay. I love it. I knew it was. I didn't even know, but I was like, I bet it was Stephanie's. Just knowing you two, I'm like, I bet.   Mike Walton (07:54.627) But that's what I was gonna say is that I think you're directing this question to the wrong person.   Kiera Dent (08:02.612) Yeah   Stephanie (08:03.274) So I'm always like, well, what about this? And what about this? And what about this? And they're like, you're wearing us out. And so I try not to change too many things. But at the same time, I'm like, if anybody has any ideas, that's the great thing about small business and not having anybody to be your boss. You can try it. And if it doesn't work, you try something else.   Kiera Dent (08:26.47) Exactly. Stephanie, what was your career prior to joining the dental practice? Where did you come from? What were you doing? I know you had three littles. So what did you do beforehand?   Stephanie (08:34.462) was an occupational therapist. So I did, you know, worked at the hospital post, you know, rehab for strokes and hip replacements and things like that. So it comes in handy telling him about ergonomics and protecting that because I had patients that were former dentists. And so I can help the assistants and hygienists. We had one when we switched to this model and assistant   that was having some ulnar nerve impingement because she was doing so much of the same task. And so I was teaching her about ulnar nerve glides and ergonomics and stuff. So that's what I did before.   Kiera Dent (09:13.564) I love it. And so what's fun about that is I wanted to highlight that because I think so often having a fresh perspective like you'd have Stephanie of we're running a ragged race and Mike, I think we're in dental. We're so ingrained in dental. That's why it's really fun to have consultants or have other business people or have someone else's perspective. So Stephanie, how did you pitch this and what was your reasoning? Like walk me through, how did you even say like we're getting rid of the hygienist? Like forget it, Mike. We're going to go for this. Walk me through kind of your thought process of even how you   thought to do this and then I'm excited to hear Mike how you guys actually ended up doing it.   Stephanie (09:46.832) You know, I don't even know if I'm on a lot of different forums and a lot of just to learn podcasts, consume, you know, and I don't know if somebody else was doing it or if it was like a hybrid from like accelerated hygiene or if it was just the fact that can we entertain the idea of not having that position in the office.   and then boost the wonderful people that we do have, you know, could we make that work? Because I'm kind of like, you know, out of the box, you know, well, have we ever tried this before? And, you know, I watch a lot of Simon Sinek, you know, you can have anything you want as long as you don't hurt anybody else in the process, you know? So.   Kiera Dent (10:29.224) Yep, yep.   Kiera Dent (10:33.13) Mm hmm. All right. So Mike, she pitches this to you. Let's get rid of hygiene. I can only imagine a dentist's worst nightmare is, hey, you want to start scaling teeth again? So I'm just dying to know, Mike, how did this pitch go? I'm imagining Shark Tank. Stephanie's got the like white boards. Like we could do this. We can think outside the box. And Mike, you're like, but this means I have to scale again. So Mike, how did this go for you? Give me come because I guarantee you dentists listening are like   I'm hanging up. Like I'm not even gonna listen. How did this dentist even say yes to wanting to do hygiene again? Because I imagine that that's how it's rolling in your practice right now. Well.   Mike Walton (11:04.144) Well, you know, we've been married. We've been married for it'll be 24 years this year and together for 31 years. And I learned a long time ago that I say, you're right. you know, it doesn't take a lot of fight anymore to kind of get me to go along because   Kiera Dent (11:13.374) Wow, congrats.   Kiera Dent (11:22.942) Yeah   Mike Walton (11:28.956) She does a lot of that research and a lot of that background. You know, I've always been more of the technician and she kind of says, hey, if you think about this, you think about that. And she's got a good way of presenting it to where it makes all the sense in the world. You know, I think there were some logistical things that were kind of popping in both of our heads of how does this work? But also from her background as an occupational therapist, she is...   Stephanie (11:38.526) .   Mike Walton (11:57.744) incredibly structured and organized. And so it, you know, she took a lot of that on and kind of said, Hey, what if we do this? What if we do that? And I was like, I couldn't find anything to argue with other than, you know, in dental school, I remember graduating dental school thinking, well, that's the last prophy I'm ever going to do. and you know, I kind of dreaded it going into it at first, but you know, it's not, it's not bad. know, right now I'm still like, you know,   Stephanie (12:02.157) .   Mike Walton (12:25.787) I'm not gonna do any scaling and root planing. you know, I say we're hygienist-less. We do have one of our old hygienists that does come in and do our scaling and root planing for us. And we set her up every couple of weeks and with a full schedule and she's fantastic. And she comes in and takes care of us with that. But we do all the paramedinance and all the pro fees. you know, it took a little time to kind of get into that groove because we were trying to figure out, we do it all?   all hygiene in one day and all restorative in another day or do we mix and match it? And we decided and figured out that it was more efficient and profitable to kind of break it up and do it day by day. we got one day or I guess we work four days a week. So in a two week span, we got eight work days and we'll do several days of just hygiene and several days of restorative.   Stephanie (13:22.5) Three.   Mike Walton (13:24.859) and we kind of alternate those doors. So yeah, so like today was a full day of hygiene for me. So we had three operatories of hygiene just back to back to back and ran all day like that.   Kiera Dent (13:27.316) So you do a full day. It's a full day. Go ahead.   Stephanie (13:27.383) you   Kiera Dent (13:40.668) Amazing. And so you basically are doing triple accelerated hygiene. You've got your assistants who are over a column and then you basically just go in scale. You can do the exam at the same time. So that is convenient. Is that how it operates? Now I'm dying to know the logistics. All right, so we've got three columns of hygiene that we're doing, which is why we have our assistants. How does that work for you, Mike? Are you just scaling, they're polishing, they're taking the x-rays?   Mike Walton (13:42.594) Thank   Kiera Dent (14:07.282) and do you stagger your schedule so that way you're able to get to all of them or are they blocked on the hour just like a regular hygiene schedule?   Mike Walton (14:12.26) So good question. We do not stagger them. We kind of have them on our appointments. I'm trying to think of what's the best way to start here.   Stephanie (14:29.31) The front desk does a really good job of mixing patients that need x-rays with patients that don't need x-rays. So that's kind of the substitute for staggering and the DAs do too, looking forward.   Mike Walton (14:33.186) Yes.   Kiera Dent (14:35.978) Amazing.   Mike Walton (14:37.518) Yeah. So yeah, we'll have somebody that needs x-rays and two that don't. And so what happens is I'll start out and I'll just scale. As soon as they get the first three patients back, I'll scale one. The other assistant is getting all the data and profi. And then the other one's doing the x-rays. And so they're a little bit behind that second one. And then it kind of staggers when I need to go into each room, if that makes sense.   Kiera Dent (15:07.614) Mm-hmm, it does.   Mike Walton (15:08.043) And then, you know, that's what it is. It's just kind of a bounce, room to room to room, and then they got time to turn over, and then we bounce room to room to room again.   Stephanie (15:20.476) And we're real fortunate in the state of Kentucky because the dental assistants can do everything but the scaling. With the certification, they can do the coronal polishing. They can do, we trained them to do period charting. We trained them to do everything but the scaling and of course the diagnosing. And that has worked out tremendously well as far as that. But they can do everything. They can do sealants, can do flora, they can do polishing.   Kiera Dent (15:20.659) Amazing.   Stephanie (15:48.785) They can establish rapport and so they fill that time with what we call how's your mama experience, you know, because that's what it is when people come in, we say how, you know, how are you doing? How's your mom? And we know that good.   Kiera Dent (15:54.984) Yeah.   Kiera Dent (16:00.095) Mm-hmm.   Right. And in the state of Kentucky, because I don't know all the laws, are they, when we go to the restorative side, can they act as like F does in others or are they, they do fillings? Can they do crown preps? Like you obviously prep. that, does that work for you? Because I'm just trying to figure out logistics on restorative day, because I'm guessing you've got quite a few columns of restorative. Is that how your, your assistants work?   Mike Walton (16:22.74) Right, right, exactly. yeah, anything that is reversible they can do. And so they are all extended duty certified.   And that's kind of how we run. Whatever they can do, they are allowed to do, they do, and they do it well. You know, that was one of the...   Kiera Dent (16:46.473) Right?   Stephanie (16:47.311) And the great part about that is, is they understand the restorative part when it comes to treatment planning during a hygiene appointment. And the hygienists always struggled with that. They knew hygiene inside and out, everything about that. But when it came to treatment planning, the process of extractions and dentures or whatever it may be, they didn't understand that. And these dental assistants understand it forwards and backwards. And so they're his right hand in the restorative. And so when it comes to treatment planning,   Kiera Dent (16:55.156) Totally.   Kiera Dent (17:09.258) right.   Stephanie (17:17.147) They already know how he likes it, the procedure process, the steps of it. And so even the treatment planning is so much better because they understand the restorative part where the hygienist really didn't.   Mike Walton (17:21.558) All right.   Kiera Dent (17:30.394) That's a good point Stephanie and I hadn't actually not thought about that. Like you're right. They're probably teeing up treatments so much better. They don't even need to know what would doctor do because they know they've assisted you and as an assistant, I'm like, I know what my doctor is going to do. You're so intimate with your doctor that you really do know. That's actually like a plug for people that want to go fully hygiene, hygiene less like you guys have. If you're looking at assisted hygiene, that assistant really can tee up a lot of treatment if they've worked with a doctor and they are an experienced assistant.   Stephanie (17:36.078) Yes.   Mike Walton (17:36.469) you   Stephanie (17:39.856) Yes.   Mike Walton (17:42.101) Okay.   Kiera Dent (17:58.346) That's a really big pro that I had not thought of. So Mike, is it for you as a dentist, like scaling all day long? Are you okay with it? Do you like the piezo? Walk me through, how many months has this been since you guys have gone to this model?   Mike Walton (18:06.516) It was probably May when we started doing this. Yeah, yeah. And so it was tough at first because it's a whole different positioning. know, it was, I would end the day and could hardly, you know, stand up straight. you know, it's taken a long time to try to figure out   Kiera Dent (18:15.754) Okay, so we're like nine months, 10 months in.   Kiera Dent (18:27.145) Yeah.   Stephanie (18:29.765) It's.   Mike Walton (18:35.858) where proper position was, you know, cause it had been so long since I'd done it. But you know, the last, probably the last month or two, month and a half, it's gotten to where I found that groove and I get in. it's not, you know, it's not that strenuous on me as it was in the beginning. You know, I think that was one of the things early on that we thought, gosh, we might not be able to pull this off because it was so hard, you know, physically, but.   Kiera Dent (18:41.833) Right?   Stephanie (18:58.051) Okay.   Mike Walton (19:05.363) I think we just kept working and of course, know, Stephanie's got a lot of good input on how to do things with the ergonomics and, you know, if I was complaining about something bothering me, she's like, try this, try that. And so, you know, that all kind of panned out and, you know, I think with the assistants learning new skills and taking on more responsibility, they really like, they've run with it, you know, it's pushing there.   Stephanie (19:27.051) Okay.   Mike Walton (19:35.388) their level of importance up in the office and they appreciate that and I appreciate that. It kind of makes their job more fulfilling and it allows us to get through the day. We tend to on time a lot better than we did before. I think one of the nicest things is that there's no interruption. When you had a hygienist, was no matter what you were doing, was constantly, I'm ready for a check.   Stephanie (19:53.614) Okay.   Kiera Dent (19:54.834) I bet.   Kiera Dent (20:01.279) Mm-hmm.   Mike Walton (20:04.518) and you'd have to stop and get up and go check and then you come back and then it seemed like as soon as you sat down and put your gloves on and got your fingers wet, it was time for a check again. And so we don't have that anymore. And so that's like a huge stress reliever. And because you're not having to get up and down all the time, it allows you to schedule more efficiently. know, it...   Kiera Dent (20:14.461) Right.   Kiera Dent (20:26.856) I was going to say, I bet on restorative, can actually do a lot more restorative faster and more efficiently and actually get more done than you were prior. Have you noticed that to be true?   Mike Walton (20:37.027) It has because and you know just kind of jumping a little bit into probably what you would ask down the road, but you know I think our our overall production has gone down a little bit just because we Yeah So like it's it's gone down a little bit just because we can't see as many patients anymore   Stephanie (20:50.092) Okay.   Kiera Dent (20:52.262) Yep, you knew, you know me. Of course I want to know like what are the numbers?   Mike Walton (21:01.584) So we had to scale back just a little bit to make it work with the amount of appointments that we had possibly available. But with how efficient we are now with the scheduling, the profitability has gone up. And I had those numbers and I did that on a presentation with another mastermind group and I don't have it right in front of me, but I don't know, do you remember what those were Stephanie or no?   Kiera Dent (21:02.634) Mm-hmm.   Stephanie (21:26.668) Not exactly, we took home more is what it came down to and our team did. Like we were able to give raises, we were able to share that because we didn't have that hygiene overhead. But another good point is that we had to set aside specific time in the schedule, make appointments, make events.   Kiera Dent (21:33.353) Mm-hmm.   Stephanie (21:45.75) to formalize their training with how to do period charting to his standards, how to do these skills to his standards. It's like everything else you had to put it on the schedule so that everybody could check it off. And so it's kind of like a loss in the beginning, but it pays off in spades down the road because they feel confident about it. And it's like they're their patients, you know, and they're, you know, in charge of it.   Kiera Dent (21:48.383) Yeah.   Stephanie (22:11.335) and responsible for it and they're very proud of how many skills they have now and you know so they were kind of hesitant at first because it's just like it's unknown and you know I don't know if I can do that and but you know by checking off and feeling confident you know it's made the biggest difference.   Kiera Dent (22:30.75) That's amazing. And as an assistant myself, and I know tips and assistant as well, it actually is really fun to think of elevating assistants to give them more skill sets, things that they can do giving them that autonomy. It actually kind of comes down to an ortho assistant model where they're able to do so much more while still being able to have the the general side where we get to do all the fun, like I call it the blood and guts of dentistry, like ortho is so clean, which hygiene is so clean with air quotes around it.   Mike Walton (22:45.23) you   Kiera Dent (22:58.538) And so I think you've actually blended for assistance because I was always envious of the ortho assistance. I'm like, gosh, they get to do so much. They get to do so much more than I do. So I think like really incredible work agreed. think I'd be nervous to take this on and be like, if we're doing hygiene, but I think also way to give them a huge elevation piece. So, and it's also fun to hear about your numbers. I would imagine without that hygiene expense that you will be more profitable. So you run   When you run restorative days, you run three columns of restorative on that, or how many columns of restorative do you normally do?   Mike Walton (23:30.189) three and then. We'll have a foot. We've got a fourth room that if we have kids we can squeeze in a fourth. Yeah, yeah.   Stephanie (23:42.692) that are assistant only.   Kiera Dent (23:44.842) Sure. Okay, so we're running three columns of hygiene on one day, then three columns of restorative, which you can. Now you can have them shorter appointments. You can get in and out. You can utilize your assistants more. So they're having fun too. They have a hygiene day, then restorative day, hygiene. So it breaks up their model too. They're not running all the time. But I'm curious. I always think like long-term, like, do you guys wanna go back to hygiene and or would you hire another dentist?   So then Mike, you and another dentist are doing this hygiene model. can see, cause I'm thinking, well shoot, you're seeing three columns of hygiene. You're probably only seeing two before, but we're seeing three columns, but just not consistently across the time. So what are your kind of your long-term pieces? You took home more, you had a little drop in production. I'm super curious like to see a full year of this. Like will the numbers come back up now that everybody's trained? We kind of have this whole model, but what's kind of in the long-term scope? Are you thinking of another doctor or maybe looking for hygienists?   or like, no, we're gonna just ride this out for a little while.   Mike Walton (24:41.671) I think the plan is gonna be to kind of ride it out. We kind of talked about if you brought on another doctor, are they gonna buy into doing hygiene like we have? I think that's a hard pill to swallow until you've had the heartache and the upset that we had with maintaining a hygienist. So I think it's gonna be kind of ride it out and see how things go.   Stephanie (25:00.407) .   Kiera Dent (25:03.486) Right.   Mike Walton (25:12.317) Is there ever a time where you'd have a hygienist back in? Absolutely. I think there's some things that have to change market-wise and availability-wise and knowing that security because I think that's one of the biggest things that the patients have noticed is they're getting consistency with the same person. And we're...   Stephanie (25:34.233) They love seeing the doctor. There's no pushback to not having a hygienist. They are very excited to have more time with him.   Kiera Dent (25:34.495) Right.   Mike Walton (25:41.29) And, you know, and I think we're getting into that cycle where from when we started, we're seeing the six month, you know, group coming back through and they're like, you know, we had so much turnover that every time they came, it was a different person. And now there, there's like, I get to the same person again. And, and so, you know, that's a, that's a good feeling for them too. And, you know, I think that that would be the limitation on a hygienist is one, no one, you know,   Kiera Dent (25:42.889) I believe it.   Stephanie (25:59.533) you   Mike Walton (26:09.994) If I could guarantee that they would be here long term, absolutely. Or if the market were to change to where there was a surplus that you felt like that was gonna drive them to stay for a long time, I think that's where the change would come in that perspective.   Kiera Dent (26:31.582) Wow. I'm so intrigued and I'm sure listeners are just beyond intrigued by this. It is fun to know about the numbers. It's fun to hear. And I remember Mike in our mastermind that we were chatting, you literally said like, I wouldn't go back. You're like, it was the best thing we ever did. And I'm like, we're getting on the podcast because it's such a anomaly. think it's, it shows your guys's grit. It shows your determination. I love Stephanie, you pushing to think outside the box. So I'm just curious, like with this.   Stephanie (26:52.164) .   Kiera Dent (27:00.202) What would you say are like the best benefits? mean, Mike, I've heard a few come through from you benefits and Stephanie, you just said them. So I'll list a few and see if there's anything I might have missed was something I love that you said they get consistency with the, with the doctor, like they're seeing Mike, they're seeing him more often. Um, I think Mike, for you not having to get the, we're ready for a check. We're ready for a check. Like you feel like you can just get in and almost like do your thing every single day. I also heard the assistants have been able to rise up. You've been able to   probably pay them more than they would normally make, which also then retains your assistance and makes them more sticky to you, I would presume. But any other things that you've seen that have been positives of moving to a hygiene-less model?   Stephanie (27:38.747) Well, I want to speak to that because the team is so much more unified because and they're candid with us because everybody feels like they're on the same level.   Kiera Dent (27:44.681) Interesting.   Stephanie (27:48.192) Like there's no hierarchy in the office. The back office people are candid with the front office people and telling us how we can schedule more efficiently. The front office people are telling the back office people you need to document this so we're getting paid quicker. It's like the barriers have been broken down. Like everybody's on the same level and that has unified the team, I think, like we didn't anticipate.   Kiera Dent (28:17.574) I wouldn't have thought that either. I could see like some divides, but I also think when you go through quote unquote hard times, which you were, you were losing hygienists consistently. We're having to pick up the slack. That's stressful. We've got all these columns of hygiene. It does bring people together when they go through that. And I bet this team is pretty rock solid sticky with you for quite some time going through this, which I think is awesome. Mike, anything you've seen that you want to add to that or Stephanie, either one of you.   Mike Walton (28:40.738) you know, I think those are the big highlights. you know, it's, it's, it seemed like there was always tension before and we don't have that. Like Stephanie said, it's, you know, that, that unifying of the team and it's because everybody's, you know, pulling, you know, a very important role in the office and making it work and everybody's establishing that relationship and   Stephanie (29:09.907) All right.   Mike Walton (29:10.817) It's kind of like not your right hand talking to your left hand. It's like having one big hand and it's all just working together. And I did look up while you all were talking a minute ago, I pulled up the other presentation I had with the profitability. So this was when we were four months into it. Our payroll overhead was falling between 15 and 18%.   Stephanie (29:18.016) Okay.   Kiera Dent (29:18.58) Yeah.   Stephanie (29:25.633) Okay.   Kiera Dent (29:26.89) Oh yeah, I wanna know these. I love numbers.   Mike Walton (29:37.284) because we lost the payroll for the hygienist. Our average overhead for that four months was 48%. And then our overall production was steady, but our profitability was up 27 % over the same four month period the year before. So.   Kiera Dent (29:38.504) Wow.   Kiera Dent (29:47.306) amazing.   Kiera Dent (29:56.854) That's insane. And to hear payroll numbers coming in at, you know, 15, 18 % when right now people are struggling to keep it at 30, 34, 35%. Everything's rising up. And so that had to just feel good to, I mean, I don't know, Mike, I saw both, I saw you for many months. And I just remember the stress, like so many think tanks, you're like, can't find a hygienist, we just lost a hygienist. And I feel like the stress and the   angst that you are going through and watching you two tonight, you just seem like, yep, we have a plan and I'm wondering if there's now, do you feel more certainty? And I think Stephanie will come to you on this one. Is there more certainty that like your success, your future's in your hands or does it feel like there's more stress because now it's all on you? has it, has it freed you up? Has it created more stress? What do you feel Stephanie from your perspective?   Stephanie (30:46.206) think making this change has recreated more stress at all. I enjoy this. I worry about it being physically hard on him, but I enjoy the team being a lot happier when they come in and them feeling fulfilled. And I think that decreases our worry. And I think a lot of people that own practices are worried that people, if you rub them the wrong way, they're just going to leave.   If you ask them to do one more thing, they're just going to leave. And that was a constant stress for us. And I don't feel like that with this group. So, you know, I don't know if it's going to be a long-term option because, you know, I worry about the wear and tear on him, but they seem to really care about each other. it's...   Kiera Dent (31:15.604) Right?   Mike Walton (31:15.811) Thank   Kiera Dent (31:18.442) Mm-hmm.   Stephanie (31:39.249) Yeah, it's working for now and we just need to watch trends and see if it's going to continue to work or if we need to pivot.   Kiera Dent (31:48.212) Sure, I love that. Mike, what about for you?   Mike Walton (31:49.637) you know, I think, I think the excess of stress is kind of what pushed us to make the change. And I would say that definitely the, you know, since we've made it just with the demeanor and the whole office and, and the, the lack of the headache of constantly replacing somebody is, I mean, that's taken mountains of stress away. And, and, you know, I mean,   I think that was the most valuable thing that we've done is relieving that stress because it was taken as toll. It was pretty hard on us.   Kiera Dent (32:31.006) believe it. How does it feel Mike for you being like Stephanie was saying you are now the hygienist and the dentist and so like those two hands I always told my dentist every night I'm like hey keep those hands good because that's my job I tell him like when you walk through the crosswalk put your hands up so in case like the car hits you like they just take your body out but your hands are still good but truly I was like you are my job Mike how is that for you like you are the hygienist you are the dentist it is you in that practice   Stephanie (32:35.292) .   Kiera Dent (32:58.524) Is there stress on you feeling that or is like, well, I'm to do what I can do. And Hey, worst case scenario, I'm going to find someone to replace me if I have to. What, does that feel?   Stephanie (33:05.843) So I think that was something that was really eating at him. And then we sat down with Matt at the dental advisors. And once we got the disability insurance in place and everything was, we have a contingency plan. So if the works were to happen, for whatever that the team is provided for for a little while, and then we have.   Kiera Dent (33:16.446) Mm.   Kiera Dent (33:21.712) Tell   Stephanie (33:30.649) And I think that's, and Mike, you need to speak to this. I think that made him feel a whole lot better because there was a lot of responsibility on his shoulders is just having those contingency plans if something bad were to happen.   Mike Walton (33:44.404) Right and like what she was saying, you you kind of carry that load of everything is dependent on me and what happens and You know, I think that's just seeing the numbers, you know once you see the numbers just like anything that it Relieves you a little bit and you know that hey, you know, you don't want the worst to happen but if it does you know things are provided for you know, as far as   Kiera Dent (33:45.224) For sure.   Stephanie (34:10.606) you   Mike Walton (34:11.42) you know, hands and things go, you know, I see lots of people that go through years of work and I think if anything, my hands are good. It was my back that I was worried about, but you know, I think just repositioning and kind of paying attention and listening to your body too that, you know, I, I've had hygienists that only hand scale and you know, and I'm like, use the use of ultrasonic, you know, that's what it's there for. It's meant to save your hands. And so   Kiera Dent (34:22.472) you   Kiera Dent (34:38.833) Exactly.   Stephanie (34:40.133) .   Mike Walton (34:40.315) You know, I do most everything ultrasonic and if I can't get to ultrasonic, I hand scale and like I said, it's not, you know, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to that wear and tear, you know, because it's so minimal. But, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, at first I thought I wasn't going to like, but I've always been the talker with the patients too. And it's like, now I've got a little extra time to talk, you know?   Kiera Dent (35:07.751) Yeah.   Mike Walton (35:10.746) I think it's been a good change.   Kiera Dent (35:11.058) I bet.   Kiera Dent (35:14.842) It's such a fun thing and I'm so grateful you guys were willing to come on and share and definitely love you guys as clients, love seeing your success, love seeing the change. love just you sharing your experience. It's really fun. So just super appreciative of you coming on. And of course my mind's thinking like, well, if you guys are gonna stay this model, you might as well go fee for service. Like you've already got a huge tether to these patients, make more, it can do less.   bring on another doctor that could swap you out. Hi Jenna. So really fun past for you in the future. I'm just curious as we wrap up tonight, like so appreciative. Any last thoughts, maybe things I didn't ask that I should have asked or things that you're like, Kiera, this would be really helpful for practice thinking about doing this. Stephanie, I'll pivot to you first and then we'll wrap with you, Mike. Anything I maybe didn't ask or something you want to add as we wrap up tonight.   Stephanie (36:00.993) So it probably helps us tremendously that we do not have contracts with any insurance. So we're not straight up fee for service, but we do get full fee now. So that probably makes it a little bit more doable for us, but it also adds a little bit of stress on our wonderful front desk people because they're having those hard conversations.   Kiera Dent (36:10.398) Yes.   Stephanie (36:20.951) And then another barrier was there are only so many hygiene spots that we could fit in a calendar year. So we could literally with only one doctor see probably 2300 hygiene appointments in a year. And so we had probably 4,000 active patients when this was going on. And so we were like, what do we do? And Mike said, you know, a little bit of health issues. And so we wanted to decrease the stress. We're at a point where we could do that. And so   Kiera Dent (36:38.376) Yeah, the big cut.   Stephanie (36:50.006) we had to like downsize some patients and I bet every office would like to downsize some patients. And we just started with the people that gave him the highest stress or didn't value keeping their appointments. And we enacted a super strict cancellation policy, which is a little bit of a hard conversation for the front desk, but it's a little work upfront that pays off in spades and...   Kiera Dent (36:55.946) Hahaha   Stephanie (37:17.353) And it's kind of like people are coming to the understanding that this more of a specialist type office. If they truly value coming to see Dr. Walton, which they love seeing him because of that relationship, you know, they're going to keep that appointment. They're going to book it far out. And so we got to kind of let some people go that didn't respect, you know, his time or we didn't enjoy seeing necessarily. So, you know, I think that was, you know,   something that was hard that we didn't anticipate. But I think it's kind of a good thing in the long run.   Kiera Dent (37:53.596) Yeah, no, and you're right, that is a big downsize, but it's also an upgrade in life and fulfillment and happiness. And I tell a lot of offices, like the best gift, there was one dentist I worked with and they said every year for the holidays, the gift they gave was like, the employees could go through the list of patients of which ones give us the heartache, which ones are the ones that like we just grown, and we're going to dismiss them and we're going to actually like fire them as patients in a very respectful way, send them to another office.   But elevating that, like it's crazy how much that can do for your morale. I only work with clients that I like. That's part of the Dental A Teams model. Like, yes, I understand that there'll be some tricky ones, but we really only, we like to work with our clients. love, and I love the name, my day is full of all the clients that I love working with. And I know Tip feels the same way. So I can only imagine giving yourself that life upgrade was incredible. So thanks for that. That's a, that's also a good, think, key point, cause you're right. Limited space. What do we do with that? And based on where you are in your career path,   It makes sense to possibly downsize. Who knows how much longer we want to practice, but I think if you're really early on in your practice, that'd be something to really consider because downsizing a practice and then if you ever bring in doctors, you're going to need to re-increase that. think that's something that was a wise decision based on where you are. So Mike, anything for you you wanted to add or highlight?   Mike Walton (39:07.389) Well, I think the only thing that Stephanie didn't mention, I'm going blank here now, but it was... What was I going to say?   Kiera Dent (39:23.624) I chatted too long for you, Mike.   Mike Walton (39:23.896) Caught me off guard there. Oh, I know, was when we made that change, one of the other difficult things was, you had six months of hygiene people that you had to reschedule to the days that you were seeing hygiene. And so that was a tremendous load on the front desk as well to move all of those patients and get them lined up on the days that we deemed as the hygiene days. But that was for...   six months and we've made it through that and you know that's a huge load off of their shoulders now and yeah yeah.   Stephanie (39:58.002) .   Shout out to Jessica.   Kiera Dent (40:01.93) Right. It is something where I think you guys have really painted a picture of it's short-term pain for long-term gain. Yes, those are annoying. Yes, those things are just obnoxious. And I think a lot of people aren't willing to do the short-term pain. So they stay in long-term pain thinking that that's easier. And so it is annoying as a front office to move patients, but it's what the benefit going to be. Like we have a pediatric practice that I worked with and we got the doctor where she has   We work just ops in the morning and then we do all hygiene in the afternoon. So it's a similar, it's just split days for them. And she's so much happier, but they had to move. I mean, we're talking pediatrics. That's just like so many little appointments in a day. But that team, hunkered in just like your team did. And it's amazing at how happy this team has become, how much happier the patients are, how much more efficient they are with their time. So mad kudos to you and your team. Yes.   Stephanie (40:55.583) And add those hard conversations about that. that's what people, a lot of people don't want to do is have those hard conversations to have the long-term benefit.   Mike Walton (40:57.526) All   Stephanie (41:06.927) That's what we've experienced is they just, even the doctors, they just avoid those hard conversations, tell them what they want to hear and just get out and.   Kiera Dent (41:16.604) Yeah, and then here we are. So I'm so proud of you. I know Tiff has been proud of you. I know she's been a huge instrumental part to help you guys navigate through this and just work with it and just like really I think the tenacity, the grit and the love that you have is just so incredible. So thank you. I know it's late for you. You guys are East Coast. I'm West Coast. So thank you for taking time. You had a full day today. But really, just thanks for sharing your experience. And I think for offices listening, I think think outside the box like Stephanie and I Mike and go through those   the pains, you will, it's the pain, the pain of holding on and like having that constant replacement, or is the pain of let's figure this out so we're not there. And I'm so excited, like, thanks for letting me, you know, eat my popcorn on the sideline of your life and watch to see how this unfolds. I think you have so many fun things to see how does this year shake out? Is this something we want to do long term? Or is it something where no, maybe we might go back to a more traditional, maybe we do a hybrid of what we've done and what we used to do. I'm really excited to see the future and I think it's bright and   Mike Walton (42:03.859) Yes, thanks.   Kiera Dent (42:13.588) hallelujah, you're not in the hygiene debacle anymore for now. We'll see what changes in the future, but mad appreciation to both of you.   Stephanie (42:20.239) Thank you for letting us share our story.   Kiera Dent (42:23.58) Of course. All right, you guys, that wraps it up. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

Bang bang. Oh, I think the back's a lot cooler in the front and the front's pretty cool. I like the front more I'm not even joking. She's just Contradict Well, you know, I see the world very differently because I'm an impressive thinker you are like I like this arm That's me. I don't think I can possibly rank these cups in any sort of universal way though. No, no I think based on the garment that makes sense the garmento then we're if it's like a really high quality one But it has a little hole but I'm gonna fix it with I'm gonna sew it and then better make it double It's what do they call it distressed this is a distressed garment hand-stitched hand-stitched Let's see, what's it called when it's from like a did you ever make a Build-A-Bear? Yeah, you know how you like get to put a little heart in them. Oh, yeah, that's kind of like, um if you were to If you were to stitch one of them you put like a little something in there Imagine if you had your hand in your pocket and you could feel like a little heart Hands down the worst one of these pants that actually made oh my god. I love those. I'm just kidding. Yeah, these are mid Yeah, let's not look like someone had a little period mistake Poppin they turned out sick. Yeah, that's turned out great. Did you is this the same one that you were wearing the Pop one or we oh, no, we're getting to a nevermind. Nevermind. Look at this. I answered my own question Like so these those are cool. These three pants. These two pants are all those. Those are all really good So like two out of three. Yeah, really. I mean and Someone will love the third look at that for like like I kind of crushed most let me see that one I Ain't nothing special Yeah, but like it's cute. It's fun. It's funny. I was actually wearing I'm like I feel like if it had like the spongebob flowers on it, it'd really bring it all together. Yeah, and yeah, it's I'm kind of using Just whatever whatever called stamps stamps. No, but uh Shroom prints the other one iron on patches. Oh as a way of Just covering that and also being like special. Yeah special like you Just you know, it's average but someone put a bow on it It's never fun when people like we're both we're both special. Yeah So it was Kenzie and are breaking our boundaries I'm just developing a method of like okay. How are you talking to show with your partner where it's like We need to develop the fully built characters of like, okay Yeah, we have a few ideas ideas cooking. Yeah, you take you take the lead because I'm like physically. I'm I'm popping it I'm giving it. Yeah, you are popping it. I'm I'm eating candy. Um Well, there's there's talks of maybe a documentary there's talks of maybe some Sketches skits. I don't know which comedy comedy. This comedy both the shorts turned out horribly Like not even really worth showing. I mean show Pop it and this third pair of shorts off it for me BAM BAM BAM I call it that side that side that side. Yeah, the funny if this is okay. I just didn't really have any blue shorts Me up. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then I just blew you I don't really mind those Yeah, they're just mid they just need like I mean they're they're like basic bitch. Yeah, but like then they can let the top shine, you know That's a good point. I know like having the bomb. Oh, look at the back though. I like that that corner Yeah, this kind of matches a lot of the ones I was making later, which guys does either reinforce that like the temperature has a roll Or oh, so yeah, this beauty's nice this beauty is a beauty Yeah, so this is the vision pants No sneak peeks at what's next That's cool. Mm-hmm. That's cool over there. These pants rock. Yeah, we did a great job Whispers yeah bulbs and whispers. I know like a Framing or like a Like a way of talking like that almost looks 3d in a way. Mm-hmm coming over the way of like describing different places Kind of like clouds. Yeah, they have like six straddle cumulus. No, yeah Because like this one has a whole system has similar bulbs. Mm-hmm Is this just kind of the same as this just bulbs and splashes? No Yes, this has so much more personality. This looks so good on Though like that's where these pants like they look really cool as is. Yeah, but they look exquisite on Exquisite I can't wear cheap pants through the whole show. Mm-hmm Tiger doesn't like to be like, oh I'm getting a show from here Everyone can totally see him now. Oh, I like it with this shirt. Yes. Yeah Yeah, what can I say? Slay? I'm an intense. What else could you say gang gang? I mean gang gang Those ones looks really cool on as well. Yes, these ones will let the the tops pop top pop I mean, yeah, cuz a lot of I mean this top pops top pop Definitely. Yeah. No, it does and like that's what you want from your top. Yeah, it's to pop. Yeah, really anything you want it to pop But you don't want top and top and bottom can pop like this is a top that pops. It is a top that pops That's a cool top. The whole thing is like this is just a statement piece of this anyone looks so good They look so good on the bleach. Yeah, I like sometimes that they can't really see him. Mm-hmm There's a subtle like see ya. I can't even see ya Yeah, but then it's like if you got retroflectively splash Did you catch that you catch that leak leak leak reference? So, yeah The inside this has like some right here Mm-hmm. And so if I press right there, this doesn't have like it's like it seems like this would have been thin enough that My guess would be that the front and back would have been like much closer match. It's like that's really cool The specific thing that you just showed me Because it looked like something Nope, it's not what I thought. I thought it looked like maybe like a skeleton dancing, but it did not Oh nice back Cohesive, yeah, very cool. Very nebulous. The whole thing is I'm gonna register like when I was making this because you're filming We're talking. I have no idea how I tie this together Yeah, I'm just actually kind of standing In memoriam to story. Oh, I guess that means he's dead. That's not what I meant Thank you very much. I made the punch of myself didn't God, I mean, it's sick. I know it's really hard because I did I did get a lot of these easy gap ones to sell But now I'm like, whoa now that I got official easy Easy gap ones because I'm like a lot of minor just samples Scamples, so it's fun to have a couple there. I like the way they do this if you feel it It doesn't feel you felt it. No, but I can see oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like that's what it's that's what it should be That's what you need. I Need a easy a easy quality tag. Yeah. Yeah I believe in you. I think you can do it. I think a screen printing is the way. Yeah, I do too My black velour. I did put double X on triple X off God like that is just really divine divine. Yeah, I like that. I've got some really good phrasing for D Vine So if there's one This one's okay. I think it's kind of neat and special Yeah, nothing really special, but they're pretty cool here, but that's pretty cool. Like it looks almost like a solar flare Yes Interesting one right here. That one's kind of neat Yeah, and say I'm like if I didn't have any of these beaches and I just saw this I'd be that'd be I'd be so Stoked isn't it if this is like how one of my places turned out. I'd be like, holy shit. I'm doing this full-time I'm gonna be a millionaire. Oh my god. I'm gonna be a thousand or Yeah No, um, I mean this is this is kind of like the they play bagpipes like this is like The end of a bleach session for me. Oh like a funeral. Yeah. Yeah kind of it's more of like A celebration. It's like more of a new chapter really. Yeah selling Okay, got a little cocky and thought you could see how you could scale. Can you sell I don't want to sell I don't want to scale either though. You got to go out and work. I'm curious. So this is a really I Like this a lot more than the ones that were like I removed all of the red and is all pink. Really? Yeah, but this is just you know, it's a little underwhelming But like one or two screen prints. Oh, yeah, I know divine But I kind of like it kind of being simple. Mm-hmm. Jimple. I think I think one or two screen prints It's hard to beat that I mean like but like how much so how much more would it could it probably go for with a screen print? I don't know. This is about money for you. Yeah, it's what it's ever been about man I'm just trying to find the quickest way to make a buck. Totally. That's apparent The quicker I can get there Regardless of who I fucking hurt That's nice I Like this line, yeah, I've started just like folding clothes like like this Like I make these like folds this this sleeve. This is money. I Love the dark I like this one more. That's wild. Oh my god. I think I could do poles on these I think I'm curious house completely split. You should do poles. I mean that would be good. Yeah I was like, which ones you like more watch it be like Completely split completely split. Okay, just to get this side. You're trying to split the vote. I am Trying to do some splits and vote I'd love to see you do the splits I think you could you know Dexterity, you really put your mind to it And you're ass into it My mind it's about like my hamstrings are tight. No, it's your mind. It's your mind That's me. It's literally just your mind. You're gonna wrap your head around your feet to walk on the call like Well, I mean like, you know, oh like over time. Yeah, okay, obviously. Yeah, I'm not like you're down in the juice No, no that's my legs No, that's definitely in your legs. Would you describe this? This is basic basic trash. I mean trash it yeah Straight garb like some poor sucker will get it. Okay, I kind of like that looks like a little heart though Cute I do I do like hearts and that's kind of neat. I like the lines Mm-hmm. I started going way more line centric Yeah, like those like those really kind of solid lines like Cunning and create perfect like like symmetry which is like that's what makes the hearts. I like I like symmetry Feels right does feels good in my brain Yeah, like this one's chaos, but I'm like, I like there's still symmetry. Yeah, this one's really cool money That's a good shirt, too, I was one of my favorites, yeah Boom symmetry Yeah, this one's cool. Oh Backs a freak though. That's a cool Oh the backs a freak. Oh Looking looking That's a neat little shirt, I'm curious to see what it looks like on Fashion show fashion show fashion show at work Mm-hmm We'll treat for the audience. Oh my god, I mean it was a little cotton candy for me Google just bands make Cute It kind of reminds me of like Like someone in high school who listens to like angsty yes angsty as angsty of music as possible. Yeah, unfortunately Cute I like yeah this one I like I like Because those whites just pop out so much more just pop. Where's like this is the whites don't pop Oh, this is cute though. He's a cutie. He's a cutie. Oh, look at this This is a girl shirt this one's for the girls Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's kind of big Yeah, but it would be like an oversized. Yeah These make the best this one easy shirt that you have the it's the same cut it needs screen prints though for it to be maximum Amazing like new screen prints. I don't have yet. Yeah, I already have new screen It needs stars It needs girl shit I do like that Kind of not like I don't like his little eyes. I don't like that. I Hate that shirt. No, it's so funny That's what's dead to me You watched Wednesday. It's like you kind of like some level of that like ghoulish which I wanted to like it Yeah, I know I know I Art stylish, but you just didn't like the I didn't like I didn't like any of it. It was fucking It was horrible. It was a horrible show that everyone was like jerking off so hard And so I was like, maybe I just don't see it. Maybe it comes together and it didn't it fucking sucks Yeah, it was it was really bad. There's a couple shows in a row that you kind of like I was on a bad streak. I was in a bad place Bad place. I just like I Like the edges It's got its edges back framed. It's like a little frame. Yeah. Yeah, exactly Just look like you're out like yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, that was cool Well, why did this like bleach so much more? See this is all these were both gray Cut to you I've done the testing John all the testing I know exactly what I'm doing This one almost looks like okay Like someone's sitting cross-legged and then there's like fire Yeah, it's like his head's like right there yes, yeah, it's down to heat right there I'm seeing it upside down. So who knows? Can you see the face when I flip it? Stupid pimple No That is just a reflection of myself. I am the stupid. So yeah, where's the face? Well, now I see it differently. Oh, I totally see it right there right and then oh my god There's a deer head right there. Oh, there is that one. I totally saw. Oh My god, are you kidding? And then it has like two butterflies. I love it. Yeah actual George This is a Russia. This one's Russia White Russia. Oh It's okay. It would pass. It's okay. The back is not so bad that it ruins the front, correct I look like someone spilled a little drink on it or something And this interesting part is like sometimes if the bleach just barely hits a place It still doesn't it has the undercut like the color under it and it just looks like dirty Hmm, but it's not and that's what that's why I used to think that if I'd set the bleachers on opposite colors That it would stain through. Hmm when really it was just happened to be Because it was so odd. I'm like, why does this happen randomly? No Where do that term come from making headway Yeah, right This one's cool Yeah, this one's great. Yeah, this one's really cool and it kind of different way than any of my other ones have been. Mm-hmm Yeah, that one's neat Great back. Neat. Neat. Neat got a nice back to run Got a good backside This one is a little spooky vibes that's pretty like interesting like the popping Since I was going through photos, I'm trying to get those organized I saw the photo that you took for when we were watching the solar eclipse. Mm-hmm like way back, you know Mm-hmm, and it's interesting because your camera caught Like this little glimpse of light and it looks like an upside-down cross above my head. Yeah I remember that I kind of like it Kind of neat Christian Australian Christians, no this one I've reached a ton of I've made this one so cute. Look at the little stars If you look at all these pretty much all of these ones are like this same is they're so there's like army green Really? Yeah, and was army green this color? Yeah Weird. Yeah, but they all bleached into like three or four different colors really cool That's great. I wonder if they ever bleach it one color and they're like, yeah, and so then they died a darker color Yeah, I'd be curious to you. I know like maybe this was just leftover dye was my But they I mean it's high quality like I mean just the feeling of it. Yeah, it's a nice shirt soft I like to be nude for the least amount of shows possible, you know, I Try I don't I try and fail. Oh cute. I like the shoulders I really like the sides. Mm-hmm. I'm all for the side and then boom just a big This one has very much galaxy like and look you have you have little stars on your shoulders. So cute. Yeah, that's pretty cool I love me a good star. Yeah, I like a strong shoulder. I Didn't love this one first This looks like a tie-dye Sure busting out into tears way to deflate me tie-dye cross Another cutie for Kenzie cuties These keys have sold out tigers coliseum cotton of cotton has not sold a single piece. He seemed very Argumentative during the arbitration process every piece randomly go triples in price Kenzie on the other hand, she could not get rid of them fast enough. Yeah, do you want to see it? Yeah I'm gonna try it on that's high fidelity. I'm gonna give it a try. Yeah So you can get some data Kind of some shoulder. I love all of it actually. Yeah, it's really cool Honestly, I feel like it's such a specialty thing cuz it's like Small. Mm-hmm. You have you have one you're like the opposite of Deep up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're all real sizes for real big People we're like tiny chicks tiny chicks with big tits Do they don't even their bras are like painting. Oh, really? I don't know tiny chicks with times Really women to be small small this one's like this is you of oh like Colors kind of there's no yellow in this. This is green and orange. That's yellow That's yellow Yeah, it could be more yellow. I stopped it at orange because I like orange more. I didn't stop it. I know I I did this I Immaculately picked the perfect time to flip. I said, hey, this is perfect freeze Yeah Hmm a little bit of a long time. I really like this V.A.I. about the road. Yeah. I love this little round thing. I'm gonna be in there and it's happy. It's having me., so a big picture. a big picture. a big picture. a big picture. a big picture. a big picture. I don't see this one make pahops though. I don't see this one make pahops though. I don't see this one make pahops though. I don't see this one make pahops though. Kind of like the um Kind of like the um I think you look good. I think you look good. I think you look good. Yeah, yeah. I think you look good. Yeah, yeah. You don't want to be on camera. That's okay. I mean you don't want to be. You don't want to be. You don't want to be. You put this one over it. I don't do green and orange. You don't do green and orange. I like green and orange a lot more than like You don't do green and orange. I like green and orange a lot more than like You don't do green and orange. I like green and orange a lot more than like Trash. I love this. Feel how soft it is. Dummy. Dummy soft. You know it's dummy soft. It is dummy soft. Thank you. It'd be a good pillowcase. Or like, you know what's the thing you put in a Trash can where the garbage goes? I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. This is why. Bandwagon jumper This is why. Bandwagon jumper Kenzie, you're mean. You just pick and pick and pick. The podcast is the only time I get Meenataker. Yeah. The rest of the time I'm like why ya ya? Except they do it. That one's Sick. Nice one. Try it. Flip it off, bitch. Flip it on, flip it on. Flip it on, flip it on. Hmm. Hmm. Which is a lot more messy in person. Like on a person. Really, really go like this To it. It's just very Off the lopsided. It's kind of just big. It's a double XL. I like it though. It covers my butt. Okay, now it looks pretty cool. Like that arm looks cool. To quote you. Right above your left hip looks great. Yeah. Stage left. Stage left. I feel like the shoulders are really like Like, yeah, they have very pointy shoulders. Yeah. This is one of the green Ones. This is black. It's funny. It has more of a green hue than the other green shirt did. Within that triangle? No. Oh, you mean other than the army green. Yeah. Yeah, the army greens are pretty much brown. You can see them right The bottom, the bottoms Of that messy, of that big star. Down, yep, those. Yeah. So those, those all turn into those. This one's great, but I don't It's not perfect for me because of the feel. It's a little, I kind of like some rougher. I feel like that would really soften up. Probably would. Honestly, so I liked it When it was flat. But this has really Surprised me. It's interesting this. It kind of looks like I like No, it's funny. It kind of looks like it's like going up that way though. I just want to see if like Does this look the same on me as it does on you? It's going to look way better on you. It really does look different on different people. Yeah. This one's great. Grip. Personal. Jersonal. That's my Jersonal file. I don't think I, I think Bang. Um, I think It looks pretty cool on you actually. Oh yeah, well it's crazy. Like, that's weird. Yeah. Not many of them do that. Yeah. So yeah, it doesn't mean to be like Like the shoulder's weird. I think it's meant for a really wide guy. Wide guy. Wide guy. Well that's you. You're a big guy. I'm a big man. This one, this one turned out great Just because of right here. This saved it. That's pretty cool. Yeah, put the vultures on. Put it on. She puts on. I just, I don't love the neck holes of them. My neck hole. My neck hole. I kinda like it. I like the feel of the sleeves. This is a nice shirt. It's a good shirt. I like the feel. Yeah. The real feel. The real feel. She's a balancing goddess. I'm trying to be wide. You are wide. I'm like a fucking line batter. You're not too wide though. That's this one. This one. Boom. Nice. And like boom. Just with that, we're pretty much done. I like when you put them away like a forklift. Me too, but these ones each gotta go to a very specific spot. This one's going up behind you. Oh. Beep beep. That's the rest of the show for like the next 20 minutes. Tiger and Kenzie pretending to be forklifts. Completely sober. Just forklifting. Forklifting. Just forking. Trying to make a living. Forklifting. This is gonna go in the cell pile. This guy. Is this the cell pile? Yeah, I saw it. If you know. If it all falls down. And it all falls down. She's looking a little wob. That's what it does. Wobbed? You have to beat the wob. Wob. Wob. Wob. It's the wob. Wob. Wob. That's a easy shirt, but I think I'll sell it. Bye. This is a easy shirt, but I think I'll sell it. Bye. This is the double layer Kenzie. I think I'll sell it. To the pile. Sergeant Pile. Is this the cell? Yeah, every single thing over there. Oh, really now? You can even put it on that really cool ass red shirt. Or hoodie. Getting a little tired here? Yeah, I'm sorry. Oh, this is the shirt that has the double. It's just a lumper. It's not a lover. It's a lumper. And then that you can park right back up there. I'm not sleepy, you're sleepy. I've always wanted to be a boss, you're sleepy. Looks like an eyeball. On the desk. I've never noticed it. You see how there's three holes? The majority of the time it's been covered up. I know how to do damage control. Wow, the back of this one looks great. That's who I talked to? He looks perfect. I do it with the back out, but it's okay. Again. Kenzie does it perfectly. Kenzie forgets the back and the front thing though. I'm so used to doing the front forward. I like hiding it. Because the back usually looks about the same. This is crazy looking. I think I do the front because I had graphic tees for a long time. And that's how I would distinguish. What shirt is this? Oh shit. Who is this, I say. I do have relationships with men. Is it my golden boy? No. Who is your golden boy? That's a good question. See, doesn't that look blue? Something could have been staining it. Who stained it? Not one of us. Who is the damager? The damager. Who? I'm folding here. You cut the clear right away. Look at that. God, you're good at what you do. That looks really nice. I don't know why that's so fucking funny. Yeah, so that one and this one are my favorites. And the one I'm wearing is okay. How is it? Okay. I'm going to take this tangy shirt off. Do the rest of the shawl. In the braless. Oh my god, I'm so sleepy. I'm so sleepy! So sleepy that I ate like two bites of that cotton candy. I'm like, okay. Donezo. Bye. But I'm really happy I documented these because I've done so many. I mean, god damn it. The amount of fucking footage that I didn't want to just be like, okay, that last one, yeah, I just skimped out on it. Because I'm going to be like, prove that you made them, man. Because you probably didn't. Where's the street cred in that? Where's the street cred? You probably just bought them. Boney. Okay, so we're living out my nightmare right now. Everyone's like, you didn't. You just, I bet you took it from someone else. From a smaller, if you loved it. Smaller, if someone was tiny. I stole it from a bitchy. Nice shirt. Thanks. It's a cool sweater, sweater, sweater, sweater, sweater. I like the green. Green boy. Alright, thanks everyone for tuning in. I don't know what I'm going to do with three different camera angles of all this. Please, god help me. Bye. Bye. Bye. Last word, bye. Can't keep doing this to me. I'm gonna freak. I'm gonna go bananas. Hidden. Didn't know the show was kept going. He freaked out. Not very well. He doesn't really do it that much. He doesn't have a lot of practice. Doesn't really know how to. He kind of just goes. I'm not happy. Fixed it. And then he goes. I'm not bleaching another god damn shirt until I'm happy. But I'm not happy until I bleach another shirt. That is the problem with life. Yup, yup. Alright, let's go watch some tv and pass out. Alright, cool. You'll stop the camera. Don't bang that thing. Don't clap that thing. Oh, wait. I'll clap it. I'll clap it, baby.

Man can learn valuable lessons from man's best friend…  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their passion project of fostering dogs and how business owners can learn about resilience from these adorable rescue pups. You'll Learn [02:56] The story of Chance the dog [11:09] What does this have to do with running a business? [18:39] Jason and Sarah's foster dogs Tweetables “You will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment.” “If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you.” “You're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business.” “We're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through, whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it.  [00:00:14] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win we're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, founder, [00:01:16] cOO of DoorGrow. [00:01:18] And now let's get into the show. All right So we were thinking what we should talk about today and one of Sarah's strong passions Is dogs. I think Sarah likes dogs more than people. Is that fair?  [00:01:34] Sarah: That's accurate.  [00:01:35] Jason: Okay, she's an intj. Any of you that are familiar with myers briggs intjs typically like animals more than people. I don't know why, and I like dogs too, so not a fan of cats I'm allergic to them and I think they're smelly. [00:01:51] Sorry, all you cat lovers out there, but I'm more of a dog person. You can see in the background here is. Hey buddy, who's smelling around. This is a dog that we're fostering right now. And the working title for this dog is Hans. That's they give them names, but this is a dog we're fostering and it's such a sweet dog. [00:02:13] And so I wanted, this is a passion of Sarah's. We've been fostering some dogs and we've had, had some difficult times fostering dogs and we've had some good times, you know, let's, should we talk about our first foster?  [00:02:27] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. If that didn't turn us off to fostering...  [00:02:31] it was like worst case scenario, I would say. [00:02:35] Jason: So Sarah's dog, one of our dogs, he's a large dog and he's a Pitbull. American.  [00:02:44] Sarah: He's an American Pitbull. American Pitbull.  [00:02:45] Jason: Terrier. 100%. We got him DNA tested, purebred. And then we have another little mutt that we can talk about that we got.  [00:02:53] Sarah: That we adopted. Well, that one was after the whole Chance thing. [00:02:56] Jason: Yeah, totally. So we decided to, like foster, we brought a dog in and this dog's name was Chance and he was a pit bull. We thought maybe they'd get along but we didn't know Chance's background. We didn't know Chance's history. The previous people made it sound like he was a good dog sort of, but they really, I think we're kind of keeping secrets from us and gave us a bunch of rules. [00:03:21] Like, be careful with other dogs and like separate for a while and we did everything  [00:03:25] Sarah: that's always the rule.  [00:03:26] Jason: Sure.  [00:03:26] Sarah: Careful with other dogs be separate for a while. Slow introductions. Never feed together. That's yeah, those are always the rules. You say that as if that was like a red flag. [00:03:35] That was not a red flag.  [00:03:36] Jason: Okay. [00:03:37] Sarah: They tell you that with every dog.  [00:03:38] Jason: They had to have known that this dog had some violent tendencies or some history. So long story short, this dog bit Sarah. They gaslit us and blamed, it bit her arm. And they were like, "oh, well, there was food involved" or something like this. [00:03:53] We're like, okay, maybe it was us. We'll be more careful. So we still kept the dog. And we had the dog for like a month.  [00:04:00] Sarah: We struggled with that too. Because we really, we, right then and there, we thought, okay. I think we're done. I think he's got to go back. Someone else can foster him. [00:04:08] Yeah. And they kind of talked us into it. Like, "oh, well, can you just hang on to him until I find another place for him to go? Because like, nobody can take him right now."  [00:04:18] Jason: I don't think there's any safe place for them to go. So later. At this point later, it had been a month, we had integrated the dogs, they were hanging out, they're on the couch together, like it didn't seem to be a problem. [00:04:31] It was kind of, but I think really was like a working truce or something. I think this dog had a history of maybe being involved in dog fights, something like this would be my guess. Because some dogs will usually get together. And they'll do a little bit of have a little tiff, but they're not trying to kill each other, right? [00:04:48] They'll, like, bite, they'll do something, they'll give a warning, and they'll be done with it. So, I had come home from a walk, Parker came up to me, I played with him a little bit, he did a little playful sort of growl with a toy or whatever, the other dog gets off the couch. This dog had no expression. He's just headed towards Parker. [00:05:07] Parker saw him and it was like, it was on and saw him coming towards me. And they just locked up and they got into this horrible dog fight. Like, and we have a long entryway into our home, like a big hallway, like entryway that runs kind of all the way to the back of the house almost. [00:05:26] Right. And this was. in our family room towards the back of the house and the fight continued all the way to the front door. Like it was just, it was a disaster. This dog Chance and Parker were fighting and we were trying to break it up. Sarah was on with Parker trying to pull him and I was trying to get Chance off and Sarah, you were freaking out if you don't mind me saying. [00:05:51]  [00:05:51] Sarah: I mean, yeah. Like, rightfully so.  [00:05:54] Jason: Yeah. She's freaking out. And so it, yeah it was interesting. So there's blood everywhere. Blood flying all over the place, dogs are locked up and fighting, biting at each other and so then I, yeah. You know, if I had my gun or knife on me, dog probably would be dead. [00:06:09] I couldn't figure out what else to do. And we weren't going to let him kill our dog. And he was much stronger than Parker. So, we didn't want Parker to die. Right. So, but what I did in that moment is I was like, I had done a little bit of jujitsu training in the past. So I was like, Oh, I'm going to choke him out. [00:06:26] I was trying to, I first tried to lift the legs up. Cause that's what people say. I didn't, that wasn't really a great idea because I lift his back legs up and to try and pull him off. And he just turned and latched onto my leg. He turned really quickly, latched onto my leg, bit my leg through my pants. I have permanent bite mark on my right leg and had latched on my leg. [00:06:49] through my pants and was biting me. Then Parker was coming at him. So he turned back to Parker. And then I use that moment when he came at my leg towards me to get my arm underneath his neck and then to choke him out, just like in martial arts. So I did a blood choke and I figured he's probably got veins going through his neck to his brain, just like all of us humans. [00:07:13] And it choked him out. And then He passed out. I was holding him in my arm and I picked him up and was choking him out because he eventually released Parker and I was choking him out. I'm holding this limp dog in my arm. And then his Parker was latched onto one of his legs or something. And Sarah was like, "what do I do? What do I do? He won't let go!" And I was like, Sarah has a martial arts background, so I figured you knew how to do a choke. So I was like, "choke him out. You got to choke him out!" So she had to grab Parker and get him to release. And and he did. Parker really was trying to protect us. That was obvious. [00:07:52] But Parker was losing, like it wasn't going well for him. Parker, the other dog had some bites on him, but he was okay. But Parker had to go to the hospital. Like he was really messed up. He had to get surgery. His ear was like torn in half. Yeah, his  [00:08:09] Sarah: ear was torn and then he had a chunk ripped out of his neck. [00:08:13] Like the back of his neck. Yeah, it was ugly. Yeah, it was not good.  [00:08:16] Jason: So, while I had Chance in the choke hold and limp, I carried him through the house to the backyard and put him into the backyard. And shut the door so we could just keep them separate. And then, yeah, we were just, I was totally scared of that dog after that. [00:08:33] But that's what we did. And eventually I think we just got him into a crate or something. So he wasn't in the backyard.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yeah. No, I had to go get him.  [00:08:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Into the crate. Because he was like, I don't think he's going to want to see me. I just choked him out. No. No, that's probably a good call. [00:08:48] Jason: He probably wouldn't want to attack me. Yeah. Because I was pretty rough with him. So, that's my adventure in choking out a pit bull. Yeah.  [00:08:58] Sarah: So I think you never really know what you're going to do until you're like in the moment.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:03] Sarah: And then your adrenaline kicks in and sometimes you know what you're going to do or you think you know what you're going to do ahead of time and you find out there's no plan. [00:09:12] There's no plan. And the they do tell you like, oh, lift the dog's hind legs over its head and it will release. Yes, and  [00:09:20] two out of two times it released and then latched on to.  [00:09:25] Jason: Yeah, they don't like that it's being lifted up.  [00:09:27] Sarah: No.  [00:09:27] Jason: So, I mean, that was an interesting moment because I went into tunnel vision. [00:09:31] This is how guys brains work. We're generally singular focused. This is why they send us to war, right? We can just focus on one thing. So I wasn't really particularly traumatized by the event. I mean, it was, but I was like, okay, I'm in mission mode. I'm doing what I need to do with the dog and that's it. [00:09:47] Yeah. And then we got to clean up because there's blood everywhere, all through our home. Yeah, it was like a freaking emergency. Walls, everywhere. It was awful. There's blood everywhere.  [00:09:53] Sarah: Everywhere. And then I was covered in it. Because I was holding  [00:09:57] Jason: Parker and I had a white t shirt and then  [00:09:59] Sarah: when we like I got Parker in the office and Chance was outside because Jason put him out there and Jason looked at me and I'm literally like from here down I was just drenched. [00:10:12] Jason: You were holding Parker and he was the more wounded. Drenched. Yeah. [00:10:15] Sarah: And he's going "oh my god. Oh my god." He's like, "Sarah, there's freaking blood" It's not mine. It's not mine. Like, I'm okay. I lost my pinky nail. That got ripped off. So for a while I had no pinky nail that, that was not fun.  [00:10:27] Jason: Like your actual nail.  [00:10:28] Sarah: Like my actual, everybody says, okay. [00:10:30] Let me clear something up. Everybody says, Oh, those aren't real nails. These are real. These are actually attached to my real nails on my finger. So like underneath you can kind of see,  [00:10:41] Jason: yeah, there's like,  [00:10:42] Sarah: there are real nails here. And then yes, I make them longer, but it's not just a tip. Like if you pull off one of these nails, it is attached to your real nail and your real nail will come off with it. [00:10:55] Jason: You had a flesh pinky, like there was no nail for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of odd.  [00:11:00] Sarah: Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah that, that was awful.  [00:11:03] Jason: Yeah, and it took a while for my bite mark to heal. So, yeah. So, so that was our first adventure.  [00:11:09] Sarah: Let me pause here and say, cause I know some of you guys are going, "why the freaking hell are they talking about any of this? It sounds awful. And it's like, oh my God, I don't even want to keep listening to the episode." Keep listening. Because I think one of the things that I would say about particularly about this situation that we had to go through is sometimes in life, sometimes also in business, you gotta go through some shit. [00:11:34] And you're going to be in some situations that you definitely did not plan for, that you've never been in before, and that Maybe you don't know what to do, and in the moment, the only thing you can do is whatever comes to your mind, whatever you can think of, and then, it's afterwards, then there's the PTSD, so then you just have to heal from the PTSD, but I also would say it's fair that every entrepreneur has a little PTSD from their business.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:08] Sarah: Yeah  [00:12:09] Jason: Well, because entrepreneurs we take bigger risks. We get to experience you know issues like cash flow problems or staffing issues or team members that losing faith in us and leaving or team members stealing from us, right? [00:12:24] Sarah: Having to fire somebody.  [00:12:25] Jason: If you're working for a boss you don't generally have to experience a lot of this stuff that you experience as a business owner. We're choosing into a higher level of stress, trauma, difficulty, which is why it's not for everybody when not everybody starts a business. And but yeah, it's important to heal from these things and to level up from these things and learn from these things so that you can get to that next level of capacity to be able to deal with that next level of stress that exists in business. And I tell clients this all the time. [00:12:55] They're currently dealing with some problem they think is so hard and they're at kind of a lower level and I tell them, someday, you will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment, you'll be like, Oh man, I can't believe that was so hard for me then. I'm dealing with such bigger challenges and bigger level, higher level things now. And that's encouraging for them. They're like, Oh, that's good news. They're like, and they know they're like, yeah, someday this will be easy. I'm like, someday, this hiring stuff will be easy. Someday this, you know, process stuff that you're dealing with will be easy. [00:13:29] Because you're going to increase your capacity. You're going to learn, you're going to level up. It's the price of tuition and business. So let me take a quick break. I'm going to share our sponsor for this episode, which is Vendoroo. So if you are dealing with constant stress, the hassle of maintenance coordination, and that's an issue for you, check out Vendoroo. They're your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. It's built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. [00:14:08] Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, V E N D O R O O dot AI slash doorGrow and experience maintenance done right. I was actually, we were hanging out with the Vendoroo guys and I was telling them the story. Because we were telling them how we were fostering a dog and we had to get home, you know, from dinner. [00:14:29] And then they were, we somehow shifted in that story and they were just like, so interested. So, but yeah, so if you want to check out DoorGrow. com, we actually just put this up yesterday because we've been fostering and taking care of dogs and our team are really excited about this. I had the idea with one of my team members, we did a secret project. [00:14:51] Yeah, because we knew Sarah would probably like it. So we put up a dog page. So you can see the dogs that we've like, fostered. I don't think we put Chance on the page. Did we? I don't think we put Chance on the page.  [00:15:03] Sarah: No, we didn't. No. Chance was not a great story. But Parker isn't on there either. And Parker is the OG. [00:15:09] Jason: Parker's the OG. We can add Parker.  [00:15:11] Sarah: Parker's like the mascot of everything.  [00:15:14] Jason: So, anyway, check that out right at the top, you'll see a little dog emoji and it says dogs on our website. And you can see, you know, a little bit of the passion we have for helping out dogs. All right. So we told the story of Chance. [00:15:27] And you would think after that we would be done. And I think we were for a little while. It was like, yeah, kind of free, especially for you to like, get past the PTSD of that. You beat yourself up quite a bit about it, which you can be good at times, right?  [00:15:43] Sarah: I'm really, yeah. Yeah. Because on the DISC profile, I'm a DC, so I'm super critical of everything and everyone, including myself. [00:15:54] Yeah.  [00:15:54] So yeah.  [00:15:56] Jason: Which good operators are hard time.  [00:15:58] Sarah: And hard time with that. And I, like I, I internalized a lot of that. I took blame for a lot of that and I had to just kind of work, work my way through that. And it kind of goes back to anytime that you deal with a hard situation, it might be in business or otherwise, you know, you're going to reflect on the situation and some people are really good at externalizing and saying like, none of that was my fault. [00:16:25] You know, I have like no ownership in that whatsoever. Some of people, they take all of the ownership and are really bad at externalizing. So I think you have to kind of find the middle ground. Like what am I responsible for? What am I accountable for? You know, how can I learn? I'm going to learn from that. [00:16:43] And for me it was the, it hands down, it was the scariest moment of my life. Most terrifying moment of my entire life. And I've been in some pretty scary situations back when I did property management. This puts it to shame, absolute shame. But I think it's really just, it's finding the middle ground and figuring out what am I responsible for and how can I learn. [00:17:06] Jason: I think also, I think that some people are kinder to themselves and have more grace for themselves. And I think it's important to remember, like all of us have been through tough stuff and we may beat ourselves up for it, but beating ourselves up doesn't really have any saving power. It doesn't make us better to beat ourselves up. [00:17:26] What we can do though, is we can recognize, you know, in that moment. And based on the decisions we made we were making the best decisions we knew to make at that time And I think you know, we can all afford ourselves a little bit of grace. You're going to make mistakes and screw things up in business. [00:17:41] You're going to fuck up and you're going to make bad choices. I've made some big mistakes like in business. You know, I did a whole episode on my two million dollar mistake or whatever you're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business and you keep going. But I think also we need to be willing to afford ourselves some grace and recognize we're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment. [00:18:08] And so if you knew better, you would do better, right? We are definitely going to behave differently having had that lesson with Chance with other dogs, right? We're a little bit more attuned to their behavior. their temperament, like how to integrate them. Like we're paying more attention. [00:18:25] Like we just, we have a different level of awareness and that's what happens in business. If you can move past the trauma and the difficulty and you go right back at it, you pick yourself back up. You dust yourself off. You're going to learn from the experience. So should we talk about some other dogs real quick? [00:18:42] All right. Who else? Well, let's first, let's go to the OG, right? So Parker's my baby. Parker is the best dog I've ever had. And I don't know if there's ever going to be a dog that is better than Parker. I just don't, I said that about my first pit bull and then Parker, I love him so much more than my first pit bull. [00:19:01] . So Parker, I got him 2016, so he's like eight now. And he his mom was a family pet who got out of the yard one day and got herself pregnant. So she went, had a good old time. Her owner found out that she was pregnant and decided to drop her off at the pound because he didn't want a pregnant dog. [00:19:25] Sarah: So, you know, instead of like spay, neuter, that whole thing, he's like, yeah, I'll just take her to the pound.  [00:19:29] Jason: Let's get rid of her.  [00:19:30] Like, while pregnant.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Still going to find you, bud. Like you're out there, I'll get you one day. So dropped her off at the pound. Pregnant dogs should not be at the pound. They will, you know. [00:19:40] Get very sick. So, they moved her to a foster. She had a bunch of puppies and Parker was one of those puppies. So I saved him and he's my baby. He's fiercely loyal and protective of me, even when he probably shouldn't be. Sometimes with Jason, he's protective of me. Like you'll smack my butt, and Parker does not like that.  [00:20:04] Jason: I do smack Sarah's butt butt, everybody. Honest confessions. Husbands, if you are not smacking your wife's butt occasionally, something's wrong. Letting you know. So.  [00:20:15] Sarah: Yeah. But Parker doesn't know. He doesn't know that. He doesn't know it's friendly and playful and loving. No. He knows hitting is bad. [00:20:21] I [00:20:22] Jason: have to do it when he's not nearby.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Yeah. To be fair, I can't hit myself either, so, like, if a bug lands on me or something, I hit myself.  [00:20:30] Jason: Yeah, he starts getting around you and, like, trying to, like, climb on you and, like, protect you from yourself, yeah.  [00:20:36] Sarah: He does.  [00:20:37] Jason: And he'll get, try and get in between us and, like, prevent me from getting near her, yeah. [00:20:41] He does.  [00:20:42] Sarah: He does. So Parker was the first dog that I had ever rescued.  [00:20:45] Jason: He's like a nanny dog.  [00:20:46] Sarah: He is a nanny dog. We call him the nanny dog. He is. And we say, when he's doing his thing, I'm like, oh, he's nanny dogging again. Yeah. So, Parker, we've got Parker. And then after the whole Chance thing, we took a break for about eight months. [00:21:01] And then I thought, okay, well, what if we do a smaller dog? Because after that, Parker was more selective with bigger dogs. Rightfully so. That's his version of PTSD. So I thought, okay, well, maybe a smaller dog could work. And that is where Captain came in. So Captain just for reference, size reference, Parker varies between 80 and 85 pounds. [00:21:24] Jason: Big dog.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Captain is 14, 14 pounds.  [00:21:27] Jason: Yeah, Parker's tall like a lab, but built like a pit bull.  [00:21:30] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, so Captain is only 14 pounds. He's a little baby. He's about  [00:21:36] Jason: tiny  [00:21:37] Sarah: three or four ish He was we got him from a shelter about like an hour and a half away an hour 45 minutes away and Someone had him and his two brothers and decided they were done with him So they shoved them in a crate and they dropped them off at an animal shelter overnight  [00:21:56] Jason: Yeah, because it says you're not allowed to leave animals here. [00:21:59] So they secretly did it in the middle of the night, left the crate there.  [00:22:03] Sarah: On the doorstep. So the staff came in at 7 a. m. and found three dogs shoved in the crate. Huh. Super, super, don't be like these people, be better, okay? So, then him and Parker actually worked really well together and Like Captain just loves Parker so much. [00:22:21] He just loves him so much. Like I take Parker to the chiropractor and Captain stays here. And when I come back with Parker, Captain is way more excited to see Parker than he is to see me. He loves me so much, but he's like, just  [00:22:35] Jason: he's jumping all  [00:22:36] Sarah: over the moon about Parker. So Captain's our second rescue. [00:22:40] Jason: And Captain's, he's kind of a mutt. He, we did a DNA test on him.  [00:22:43] Sarah: Oh, no, he's a he's absolutely a mutt.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, he's got Rat Terrier. He's got...  [00:22:48] Sarah: I think if you could do him in order, probably not.  [00:22:50] Jason: I don't know. Rat Terrier was probably the largest.  [00:22:52] Sarah: Rat Terrier is the largest. What's next? Then American Pit Bull Terrier, which is why he's brindle on the top. [00:22:57] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:22:58] Sarah: Huh. Yeah. Okay. Yep. American Pit Bull Terrier. Then Super Mutt.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah, that's what the That's a breed. Super Mutt.  [00:23:05] Sarah: I'm like, oh, wow. They call it a Super Mutt. Okay. Okay. It's like 14 percent Super Mutt. Huh. I think. Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, And then Dachshund, which is what we're told he was. [00:23:19] Jason: Yeah, and he's little. He's really little. He'll get in our face. All the time. Alright, so, next dog.  [00:23:27] Sarah: Yeah, so, we've had Captain for a little over a year now, and then I thought, okay let's foster. We won't adopt another one, but like, we'll foster, we'll, you know, help train it, kinda get it back on its feet, do something good, get it ready for a family. [00:23:42] And that's where Maynard came in.  [00:23:44] Jason: Mmm. Maynard.  [00:23:45] Sarah: That one, that, he's heartbreaking. So if any of you guys had followed us on social media, like, a lot of people I guess were checking in with you, like, how's Maynard? How's Maynard?  [00:23:55] Jason: Yeah it was hard to even look at him and not get emotional. This dog was so emaciated, so starving. [00:24:03] It was a bulldog. They found him in the, in San Antonio, on the street. And this is like in the height of summer. In 104 degree Texas heat, which, if you know anything about bulldogs, they can't breathe because their face is smushed. He was basically a skeleton with fur. If you see pictures or any of our, if you see it, you'll be like, Oh my gosh, like, how's this dog alive? [00:24:27] Yeah, he was covered in like over a hundred ticks. Yeah and he had all sorts of diseases and problems related to that.  [00:24:36] Sarah: Like lesions and wounds. Yeah, he had wounds.  [00:24:38] Jason: Burns it looked like all over his body? [00:24:40] Sarah: He may have hidden under a car that was hot and like burned himself on the hot car trying to find some shade. [00:24:47] Jason: Yeah. [00:24:47] Sarah: And cool himself down. Yeah  [00:24:49] Jason: It's super sad.  [00:24:51] Sarah: This dog was in bad shape. He was 25 pounds and he's supposed to be probably at least 50 or 60.  [00:24:57] Jason: Yeah, they spent And a whole evening trying to pull all the ticks off of him, like they had to give him a blood transfusion or he would have died. Like he was just, he was in bad shape,  [00:25:07] Sarah: He had two tick borne illnesses. [00:25:10] He had pneumonia. He needed a blood transfusion just to survive this. He was obviously severely emaciated and severely dehydrated. And eating, you can't just take a dog like that and shove a bunch of food like Edla, she was like, oh, we could just feed him a lot. And I'm like, you'll kill him. [00:25:29] He'll die. Yeah. So your body, very what happens when you're that far along is muscle atrophy. So your body will eat the muscle. So he had literally no muscle left on him anywhere.  [00:25:42] Jason: He didn't hardly walk  [00:25:42] Sarah: at all.  [00:25:43] Jason: He would just crumple over like he would like, yeah, he would try to walk. [00:25:46] You fall the time, man.  [00:25:47] Sarah: But he would try. He was really like, he tried. You'd think that a dog like this with this many problems would just say like, fuck it, I'm out. Like, I probably would. If I was up for it, I'd be like, alright, just, like, where's the plug? Pull it. Let's do it. But he did not. He did not want to give up. [00:26:04] He did not want to die.  [00:26:06] Jason: We had him for about a week?  [00:26:07] Sarah: We had him for a week. Yeah, we had him for a week.  [00:26:09] Jason: And then, like, he was in bad shape. I don't even think they should have let him come to us, but they didn't know all the stuff that was wrong with them. They  [00:26:15] Sarah: didn't, yeah, they didn't know everything because they didn't do the full like, scan. [00:26:19] Jason: So we had him for a week and took care of him, but we started to notice he was like, he was getting worse. So then we we reached out to the foster organization and then they took Maynard to the doctors and they were, like, he was in bad shape. His whole esophagus had been destroyed so he couldn't, like, move food down. [00:26:38] They've, we've, later they figured out, well, he just needs to sit upright, and like, gravity, and maybe that'll heal over time, I don't know, but he had a whole bunch of issues, but before they figured that out, they were like, this dog is in such bad shape. He's not really getting food down.  [00:26:53] Sarah: He's. Well, they didn't know what exactly. [00:26:54] Yeah, so they were about to put him down. When I brought him back to the vet. So they started doing some tests on him. They said he actually lost weight and I'm like that doesn't make sense. Like he's been with me for a week. He's eaten every day and he wants his food. Like he wants it, desperately wants his food. [00:27:11] And that doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. How did he lose weight? And they're like, I don't know. So then they found out that he had. A very rare parasitic infection that attacked his liver. He has heart disease. His pneumonia has gotten worse. And then they were trying to figure out the whole, why did he lose weight type situation? [00:27:38] And they ended up doing a scan. They did not think he was going to make it. They just, they didn't know. There was so much going on with him. Like issues as long as my arm, the list was as long as my arm and they didn't think he was going to make it. So the president of the organization, she let me know, she's like, I have to make a really tough decision right now. [00:27:59] Jason: And they put a lot of money towards this dog. The whole, like, a lot, thousands of dollars.  [00:28:03] Sarah: It was, I think his treatment was somewhere, All of it was like over like 7, 000 so far.  [00:28:09] Jason: Yeah, they were really doing everything they could to take care of this dog. But she was at the point where she was like, I think we're going to have to... yeah. [00:28:16] Sarah: Oh, and he was anemic on top of all of that. So he couldn't keep heat in.  [00:28:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:28:20] Sarah: Poor guy.  [00:28:20] Jason: So like, they were about to put him down. Right.  [00:28:25] Sarah: Yeah they decided like it doesn't seem like there's anything like he's too like he's just too far gone and The vet came in the room like with the shot and they said all right, let's give him like one last really awesome meal So they gave him mac and cheese and he Scarfed it down like you wouldn't even believe and that whole day and the whole day before he wasn't moving. [00:28:49] He wasn't walking. He wasn't really interested in anything. He was just very lethargic, very tired. He didn't, he did not care. Mac and cheese, he was like, what is that? Give me all of it. Perked right up for the mac and cheese. So the mac and cheese literally saved his life because he was minutes from being put down. [00:29:08] Said that she has never been that close to putting a dog down and then didn't do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:14] Yeah, but that gave her hope that, Hey, there's something here. There's some life in him. And he's, You know, he's motivated for some reason.  [00:29:22] Sarah: Yeah. And the vet who was going to euthanize him then, she said, there is something weird with this dog. [00:29:30] Like, it's just, there's something off. We don't know, like, is it okay if we do like the full scan? And she's like, if you think it'll help him, like, if you think that we can figure this out and save him so that he has some quality of life. So  [00:29:45] Jason: because of the mac and cheese, and seeing something that seemed a little bit off, because that like, he was so excited about that and he was eating it, they then did and he perked up, they did the scan and they found what? [00:29:59] Sarah: So in dogs, they call it a mega esophagus. So essentially, his esophagus doesn't work. They think that he may have, back like when he was dumped on the side of the road, and also, I should, we should have said this, he was intact, so we think that he was used for breeding. And then when he got too far along, these fuckers dumped him on the side of the road. [00:30:21] So they're number two on the hit list. I will find them and they're not even far from me. I will go get them. So they dumped him on the side of the road. When he was on the side of the road they think that he either ate something or drank something that was toxic and messed up his whole esophagus. [00:30:38] Yeah. [00:30:39] So that's why he was eating food, but it was all impacted in his esophagus. Hardly any of it was actually getting through to his stomach.  [00:30:47] Jason: Yeah,  [00:30:48] Sarah: so they found that out and Bruni the president of the organization said well wait a second when he was with his fosters like he had a bowel movement So something had to have gotten through like what can we do? [00:30:59] She's like, what if we like prop them up. They have like a little Bailey chair, but they didn't have one there. So they made a makeshift one out of like blankets and cardboard.  [00:31:07] They're like, what if we do like a makeshift Bailey chair, test it for 24 hours, see if any food actually gets through into the stomach because that is a treatable condition. [00:31:17] Now, if they're born with it and then that's really hard. But he wasn't born with it. Something destroyed his esophagus. So they said, oh, that's like, it's a treatable condition. So what if we try this, give him 24 hours, and then he's got to show us that he can get some food and medication down into his stomach because all the medication for all of the problems, it wasn't even getting into his system. [00:31:46] Jason: Medicine, food, nothing was making it.  [00:31:48] Sarah: Nothing. No water. Like he had a couple bowel movements with us. So like Something must have, but not. Not the way he should have been. So after a 24 hour hold, he had a full stomach of food.  [00:32:02] Jason: Yeah, they figured out he just needed gravity. Like they just had to prop him up. [00:32:06] So he's sitting up like a human eating, you know, and he was perfectly happy to eat. Like he was a hungry dog. So then he went to be taken care of full time by the foster organization. Yeah [00:32:18] Sarah: He has multiple medications he has to eat like a very small strict  [00:32:23] Jason: And she has a lot of dogs at her place that she's taking care of so she asked if she had another foster. She said could you take this dog Silver? Yeah So then we got Silver was the next...  [00:32:33] Sarah: oh, wait. The thing I want to say about Maynard is that he had every reason to give up and he had every reason, multiple reasons. [00:32:43] Like he had like literally so many health problems.  [00:32:46] Jason: Yeah. And everybody around him had multiple reasons to give up on him. .  [00:32:48] Sarah: He had every reason to not trust humans and every reason to be like a nasty, vicious dog. And he just wasn't he was not he was so sweet and he loved to like just shove his little smush face into me And just nuzzle it and when it was in there, he still wasn't close enough He was still like pushing trying to get closer Because I think that was the first time he ever experienced love and even though he had every single reason stacked up against him. [00:33:19] Like the odds were not at all in his favor. There's no reason that this dog should technically be alive. It's only because he's so freaking stubborn. He did not want to give up on himself. Even through all of that, even through all of that, he didn't want to give up on himself. So when we were going through all of that, like with him, I was telling people like when I would run my scale calls on Fridays, my our operations call, I was telling people like. [00:33:45] If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it. Because every single time that they thought they had the issue figured out, there were like five more issues that popped up with him. [00:34:08] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. You can handle it though. He also had a really good support mechanism around him eventually, right? And I think that's also there's a little lesson in that is that you need If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you and to have people that believe in you, even when you might feel like giving up, and that, you know, can see that you can be better. [00:34:36] And we need those. We need those people around us. And so if you don't have that in your business, it's probably feeling pretty hard because you're doing, you feel like it's all up to you and you're all on your own. And that's a dumb way to grow business. It just is. All right. Next dog.  [00:34:54] Sarah: Okay. So the medical foster that took Maynard after his second, third ER stint she said, Hey, like I, I cannot take another foster, but I have to take Maynard. [00:35:05] Can you take Silver? And then that gives me room to take Maynard. And I said, so Silver, like this is Austin Bulldog Rescue. They largely work with bulldogs. It's not only bulldogs, but most of them are bulldogs. Silver is not a bulldog. He looks like some sort of terrier. I think he had very terrier fur. But he was little, like 30 pounds. [00:35:28] Very high energy. He was probably like in his teenage phase. They also found him on the side of the road in San Antonio. The sad thing about him, though, is he had like, he was house trained. He had like house manners. So he lived in a house at one point. And Either escaped or was dumped, but he was hanging out with a pack of dogs and the bulldogs He was like, these are my friends and the rescue were saving all the dogs and they were like, okay There's like this other dog like what do we do? [00:35:58] And she's like, well, you can't leave him like come on he's an honorary bulldog now. So so they They fostered him, took him in, and then we had him. We had him for about a week, and he already had some applications coming in on him, and he got rehomed to a family that I think is a great fit for him. [00:36:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:36:18] Sarah: They're such a good fit.  [00:36:19] Jason: Silver had a lot of energy. Yes. He was like doggy teenager. He had a ton of energy, super excited, loved running around. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:30] Sarah: And they're like, we want to go for a walk every day. And we like to go on hikes and we like to go camping and we'll bring the dogs. And I was like, Oh, he would like,  [00:36:37] Jason: he'll love that. [00:36:38] Sarah: He would love that. He would love that. And every dog that Silver saw, he wanted to play with every single one of them. And then they have another dog. So it was just figuring out, are those two going to be nice to each other? And they're great. He was very like respectful of her boundaries, which none of us had seen previous to that. [00:36:57] So that was really good. And they're doing great so far. And then. The woman that adopted him, she sends me pictures of him. Like, she's like, just so you know, he's doing great. I'm like, oh, thank you. Thanks for sending that.  [00:37:09] Jason: All right. Next.  [00:37:11] Sarah: Next is this guy behind me.  [00:37:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:37:14] Sarah: Baby. [00:37:15] So we wanted to do another foster. Bulldogs are a lot of work, like so much work. And we went to a shelter that's local and we were looking, I was looking online for a dog that was not small, but also not large. So he's like 44 pounds ish. He's  [00:37:37] Jason: got a bit of a cough right now.  [00:37:39] Sarah: Yeah, he had kennel cough. [00:37:41] So we're. working on clearing that up with him and they don't know a whole lot about him. They found him as a stray in Round Rock but that's also so sad because he's so sweet and like he's house trained and he's got manners and I'm like, oh, Jason keeps saying he's like this somebody's like some family's dog like they must be missing their dog and I'm like, it was in the shelter for over a month. [00:38:06] So yeah, like Parker goes missing. I'm not sleeping until I find him.  [00:38:11] Jason: Sure. [00:38:11] Sarah: You know, I would there would be a bolo out on it everything like I would call the SWAT team like Everybody would be involved. So now we are fostering Hans and We're looking for a forever family for him. Although we might foster fail and keep them ourselves. [00:38:30] We'll see but we're That's what it called. It's foster fail.  [00:38:33] Jason: Oh. Yeah. This one's hard to not  [00:38:37] Sarah: The first day we got him, the two kids and Jason were already pushing me. They're like, we could just keep him.  [00:38:44] Jason: He's a special dog.  [00:38:45] Sarah: It didn't take long. They're like, we could just, and I thought I was going to be the one who was weak. [00:38:49] I thought I was going to be the one who says like, oh, we should keep him. Like, let's just keep him.  [00:38:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:38:55] Sarah: And shockingly enough, I was the one that was like, yes, but like, we're fostering so we can help more dogs. And the three of them, they're like, but we can just keep him. He's so perfect. Aren't you perfect? [00:39:07] So if he gets along with our other two, then. I think we might keep them. We'll see. See what happens. So. All right. So there's our dog story. That's the current. That's what Jason wanted to talk about dog thing  [00:39:20] Jason: today. So, you know, gives you a little glimpse into, I guess, what? Our personal lives a little bit. [00:39:27] Some of the things that Sarah cares about that we care about. And yeah, so. Dogs. So if you like dogs, then maybe you enjoyed this episode and maybe you learned something. I don't know. All right. Well, I think that's it for today. Until next time to our mutual growth, everybody, if you're wanting to grow your property management business, you can use some extra support, then reach out to us. [00:39:50] You can check us out at doorgrow. com and be sure to join our free Facebook group. If you are a property management business owner or planning on starting a property management business in the near future, go to doorgrowclub.Com and join our free community and that's it. Bye everybody. [00:40:09] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:40:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Quantum Healing with the Angels - Episode 13 - The Real History of Planet Earth   ⁠All my links (website, social media, podcast, etc): https://beacons.ai.beyondquantumhealer **To enter our drawing for a free Beyond Quantum Healing session, here are the instructions! Just do the following:  1. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, per the instructions in this episode. 2. Once you leave the review, email me at bqhsarahwebb@gmail.com and let me know which review is yours, and make sure to include a way to contact you (I will never share your information with anyone else).   3. I will put your name in the drawing for a free BQH session! Remember, BQH sessions can be done from anywhere in the world - you just need a laptop or computer (a phone or tablet may work if you don't have either of those), a headset with a mouthpiece in front so I can hear you well, (the one I recommend is less than $30 on Amazon) and a good Internet connection. I do them via Zoom.

Welcome to part 2 of Paris Brest Paris with James Gracey. This episode concludes James's intense 1,200-kilometer ride filled with unexpected obstacles and unexpected friendships. Faced with numerous challenges, from illness to malfunctioning electronics, James's determination powers him through, making his journey a testament to sheer grit. Halfway through, with 600-kilometers still to go, he contemplates quitting but finds encouragement in the unity of fellow riders. Each twist and turn loaded with his physical and mental endurance eventually leads to the finish line. As he crosses it with newfound friends by his side, James's story evolves into not just an adventure, but a celebration of camaraderie and the human spirit. Don't miss out on this extraordinary account of grit and determination that will surely inspire. Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00]Craig Dalton (host): Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, we've got part two of my discussion with James Gracey. And his Perry Brest Paris ride in 2023. If you haven't listened to the episode last week. Press stop or pause. Go back and listen to that episode because we're going to catch up with it halfway through. James is about 600 kilometers into Perry, breast Paris. Uh, 1200 kilometer ride from Paris to the town of Brest in France, back to Paris. Let's jump right in midstream to my conversation with James Gracey. [00:01:02]James Gracey: So the way out [00:01:03]Craig Dalton: to breast is your first 600 kilometers. And this is a distance that you've now done pre once previously before. Yeah, I'm a, this is all you're [00:01:12]James Gracey: ready to go. So [00:01:14]Craig Dalton: did you, did you sleep at all on the first six? I [00:01:16]James Gracey: slept, uh, Lodiak is the, is the 400 K point. It's also where the bag drop point was and so unfortunately one of the gentlemen that is Responsible for san francisco randonneurs. He's he runs the organization Uh, and I think he's affiliated also with rusa He got sick and so he's coming over to do the ride He has gone way out of his way to make sure everybody has what they we took 106 people from san francisco Which is a huge contingent bigger than most And he, his name is Rob Hawks, and he got sick, uh, like to the hospital in the emergency room, sick when he landed. And so he had, uh, he had some hotel rooms in Lodiak that he was, when he realized he's not going to be able to, to utilize them, it was two days before, and I was sick. And so I was up at two in the morning being sick. And I got. noticed that these hotel rooms were available. So, because I was sick, I was like, done. I'll take, I'll take them both. They were both in Lodiak the first night and then the second night coming back. And so I did grab all my gear, my drop bag, go to the hotel, took a shower. And uh, lay down for like two hours. [00:02:39]Craig Dalton: And we, so were you, was it going to work? The math going to work out that you were going to be in the same hotel the next night? [00:02:45]James Gracey: Yeah. I just left my gear. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. So it saved me a little bit of time. So I didn't have to go check in to get gear. Yeah. It, it didn't work out quite that way because I was so far behind when I returned to Lodiak. I had to go to the hotel, get my gear packet, no shower. I changed kits. And went, uh, and had to go back and drop the bag because they're leaving. The bag drop people are leaving. That's how close we are. And that's one of the bigger problems with starting at the end. That when it's at the end, if you start at the beginning and you fall six hours behind, no big deal. There are people that are, you know, twelve or thirteen hours behind you still. But when you start at the end and you get hours behind, you're at the end. And they are closing down the control station. Um, what was your, [00:03:34]Craig Dalton: what was your kit set up? Like, it sounds like you brought two, [00:03:37]James Gracey: two sets of. I had three, I had one for one for each day. And I planned on, I planned on changing them. And, uh, they were just my regular road. Yeah. But just for [00:03:46]Craig Dalton: like general cleanliness [00:03:48]James Gracey: and yeah. You want to get out, you want to get out of that. And, um, like I was in my, my second kit for 40 hours or something like that. Um, coming, coming back. And. Yeah feels pretty gross. So if you're [00:04:04]Craig Dalton: back in what was the town called? Lodiak you're now i've done 800 800k, so you got 400k to go. Yeah somewhere along the way. I got a message from you That made it sound like you're done Yeah, [00:04:19]James Gracey: uh after after uh breast It was kind of evening beautiful sunset and we're leaving breast and i'd been sick. I got sick the friday before the ride Probably because we were just out I just came back from the event and I was not having oysters and lots of seafood and lots of pate and lots of stuff that I just didn't agree with. Um, or didn't agree with me. And so I was sick Friday, Saturday and Sunday, uh, before the event. And I just can't keep anything. Anything that comes in, that I put in, comes right back out. And, uh, then that continued for the first day. Anybody I'd ride with, I would get in a groove riding with them on the first day, like with two or three people. And I might ride with him for 45 minutes or an hour, and then I would say, I have to go. Like, I gotta go be sick. I have to go be sick, and I would let him go, which stunk. And it kind of kept getting worse and worse. And I'm trying to eat and drink as much as I can, especially fluids. And, uh, after breast, there's this, there are two secret controls. You don't know where the control is. And it's to keep people from cheating. My thought was probably like yours is now. Why would you do that? Why would you sign up for this self inflicted thing and cheat? Apparently it happens. I don't know why you would do that. Just do the ride. So in the second control, the secret control, I had a fever and I can't keep anything in me and I'm super dehydrated. And I even took pictures of like this dehydration that you can see in my face along the way. And I'd probably lost 10 or 12 pounds by that point, is my guess, from the Friday before I went to the Secret Control. I got to that point where I'd tried to think about, you know, a month ago and two months ago, of what are you going to do when you have all the reasons in the world to quit? Like, are you going to push through and what are you willing to trade off for that, for that, at that time? And I, I knew the answer. But I capitulate. And I, uh, and I, I went to the secret control. Um, when I had a fever, I was like, my wife had just texted me that the kids had COVID. And I was like, no, you're COVID. That's where the fever is coming from. And, uh, cause we had just seen each other two days before. And I was like, this is, you know, I have children. I have to get back. I do not need to be in a French hospital for a month because I've, you know, Tried to tough it out. And so I went to the control, uh, uh, officials, and I said, I need to withdraw. And, uh, I was really concerned about the fever. And, and he said, he said, Okay, what's your number? And I gave him my number, and he said, All right, we're going to withdraw you. And I said, what do I do? And he said, you ride to the next control. You ride to the next control. And I was like, can I sleep? I was really tired, can I sleep here? And he said, no, we're closing. The other problem with being at the very back. He said, we're closing in an hour. You cannot sleep here. And you cannot stay here. Because when we lock the doors, you cannot be here. I was like, well, the next control is Carhay. It's 50 or 60 miles away. I was like, so, if I quit, I still have to ride? This is at 10 or 11 at night. And he said, yes. , that's what you do. And I said, well, take my name off the , take my name off the list, I rescinded [00:07:40]Craig Dalton: by [00:07:40]James Gracey: quit. And I'll decide. I'll decide when I get there. If, uh, if there were, that's still the case. 'cause I am close. And I just couldn't, I couldn't overcome thinking like what I'm risking. And I just drank and drank and drank. And I think I, I think I didn't have a fever. I think I had, I was hot. Because I didn't have anything to cool me off. Yeah. 'cause I was just super dehydrated and so I kept drinking and drinking and drinking. And then by the time I got there, uh, to Khe, I laid down and I, I think I sent you the video of like all the people laid out all over the place. [00:08:13]Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's pretty amazing. Just like people just, it's unbelievable falling asleep with their head next to their food on the table, anywhere laying on the ground. [00:08:23]James Gracey: They had, there were, I didn't see, I saw one person with their feet in the street, like on a highway, like their feet are over the line. And you're like, wow. As you go and you move your feet. Somebody told me they saw a head over the, head with helmet over the line. Like they just got over as far as they could go and they kind of fell over and went to bed. And so I got to Carhay and I laid down in the cafeteria on the ground with flies everywhere. And for two hours and I woke up and I felt a lot better. I'd had, I'd had a meal. I'd had a lot of fluid. And I was like, at that point, you know, my plan was I don't have to, don't think about what, how far you have to go. Don't think I've got another 400 miles or whatever it was you think. I just got to get to the next control. And then from that point forward, it's, I just have to get to the next control, whether it's 70 miles or 100 miles. Right. I just have to, if I can just get there, then I'll make a decision. Yeah. So [00:09:20]Craig Dalton: you're, as you said before, you started in the tail end group, presumably everybody around you, you're starting to see like the really back of the bus. [00:09:31]James Gracey: We're seeing in the back of, of even the people that left 12 hours before me are now back with us. And they're in a terrible, they're in a bad way. Yeah. [00:09:41]Craig Dalton: So are you, are you riding with some of these guys and girls? I'm riding [00:09:44]James Gracey: with, I'm riding with some of them. And we had, uh, I mean, it's pretty interesting, ride baits for a while. Uh, that I'll, I'll, I've, I've, I wish them all, I wish them all well. I did get told at one point I had been riding with this one, uh, uh, randoneur that I was, kept riding in front of him. And he won't get on my wheel. I'm like 40 feet in front of him. 30, 40 feet. I mean, he's getting zero benefit, but he's matching my pace. Like, if you want to get the benefit out of this, you have to ride right behind me. I don't know how it is where you ride, but that's what you have to do, or you may as well just ride by yourself. Because I'm also having to talk loudly so you can hear it way back there. And so this went on for... 7 or 8 hours. I mean, long time. A long ride. And at one point, I got, and this, we went back and forth and back and forth. We'd kind of split up and then come back together somehow, or I'd see him somewhere else. And at one point, we're about to drop down into a, into a, um, control. And I see, I see on my Garmin that we're about to descend for a bit. Even if it's 200 or 300 feet, I don't want to come back up it. If there's no food there, because it's closed. Then I got to come back up because there's a [00:11:01]Craig Dalton: McDonald's right because you're already feeling like you're on the bubble of maybe [00:11:04]James Gracey: I'm on every control. I'm like, I don't know how this is going to work out, but it was getting better and better. And I was like, I told the group, I said, I'm going to that McDonald's and haven't had McDonald's in a dozen years. Easy. Because I quit and they realized fast food is bad for you. [00:11:21]Craig Dalton: They were probably all like Americans. They all eat McDonald's. McDonald's draw of the Golden arches was [00:11:26]James Gracey: too much. It was too much. I saw people in there and it's just across the highway. So I went over there and I got a big Mac and fries. Okay. That was amazing. And I sat down and then a Japanese man came in next. I said, you guys go ahead. I'm going to eat. I need to eat. And I don't want to have to come back up this Hill. To a closed McDonald's. Maybe like I would be devastated. It would be the end. And, uh, then a Japanese man came in and sat, uh, he couldn't figure out the self kiosk. So I walked him through it. And then while he was waiting on his order, I said, Come down and sit next to me. He didn't speak any English. He spoke a little bit. And, uh, he took his helmet off. And as soon as he sat down, he burst into tears. And I said, I said, It's alright, man. I'm in the same place. I'm just not crying. I don't know if he understood, and he just, the only thing he muttered was, this is so hard. This is so hard. And I said, I know, but you're going to eat your meal. I just had mine. I'm going to sit here with you, and we're going to start together, and you're going to be fine. And, and that's, and that's what we did. Right? And he was like, I mean he wasn't, he hadn't lost his mind, but he was hurting, and we still have a long way to go. Uh, and uh, so we, then we left and when I got down to the lane was the next control, the person that I had been riding with, that's behind me said the control is closed and you're screwed. Do you die? He said the control is closed. I said, well, that's, I mean, it's fine. I'm going to finish. My goal was not necessarily to, you know, I would love to make 84 hours, but I'm just going to, I'm going to finish it and I'm not going to finish it if there's no food and I got to come back up this hill. So I know where I need to be. He said the control's closed and I said, Alright, well I'm gonna go and, and lay down and get some, get, and sleep. I'm gonna sleep for, you know, 30, 40 minutes. And he said, well the control is closed. Why don't you come with me? And I said, No. You're not helping me anyway. And so I, I, uh, he went on and then I went into the control and the control was not closed. The control was open. And I think he just wanted me to sleep. Drag him around. I don't know. It was the only, it was the only not super awesome experience that I had. Yeah. And so I got my, got my thing stamped and I was like, there were some other people there. I was like, I know I'm tired, but you just heard what I just heard. There were some San Francisco guys there. And he goes, yeah, he said it was close. It was not close. All right. Maybe he was dreaming. Somebody else later at another, I think even our last control or control before last. was devastated, sitting there, losing his mind because the control is closed. And we're like, it's not closed. It's right there. It's open. He goes, no, it's not. We're like, it is right there. It's open. He goes, he goes, no, I DNF'd. I'm not finishing because it's closed. And we're like, it's not closed. It's right, it's right where the lights are. He goes, what? And it's, and then he started muttering a bunch of stuff that made zero sense. Uh, and so I got some sleep. And I woke up, and one thing somebody had told me before you, before we even started any of this was your body, as I don't know if I can sleep in the grass or sleep in the day, and they said your body will put you to sleep, you will go to bed, and your body will put you there, and they were right, like you can go to sleep anywhere, in the grass and rocks, I have a picture of one guy literally sleeping down the stairs, his feet are on, three stairs away from his head, And it cannot, it can't be comfortable. But he's sleeping. He's just asleep. And so I slept, I woke up, and there were, uh, four, uh, SFR guys that were about to take off. Uh, it was, uh, Ed, Misha, um, Matt, and then one, and then one other San Francisco, Randall Nair guy. And I was like, you want to ride together? And we still had maybe 200 miles to go. to maybe, maybe even a little more than 200. It's so [00:15:36]Craig Dalton: crazy. Like I can't even get my head around, like being that it, you know, in the pain locker. And then And then [00:15:43]James Gracey: like, you know, you have 200 miles to go. We don't think, we don't ever talk about like, Oh, we only have 600 more miles to go. We have more miles to go. Yeah, we just have to get, we have to get to the next control. We just got to get to the next control. And we rode together through the night. Uh, and it was awesome. It was one of my best night rides ever. That, uh, uh, emotionally that I've ever had. It was awesome. We were making good time. It was a beautiful night. We're all laughing. Having a, um, a good time. We're all, uh, fed. And we all have fluids. And making stops where we need to stop. And get a sausage or a coffee or whatever. And it was awesome. Um, and then we got to two controls to go. And there was a storm coming in behind us and I'm showing them on the radar like this is coming It's really thin. It's gonna like it's gonna blanket us with water and lightning for like 15 minutes So let's get under that tent and go to sleep For 15 minutes and they said no, I was like well, I Think we should stay dry. I think it's important because if you get wet after you know, you're gonna get blisters It's gonna be very uncomfortable Things are going to start rubbing you in the wrong places. Like you could have a whole host of new problems because you're wet and it hasn't rained yet. Yeah. And so then they, we traded like we compromised. Uh, Ed was the, was, um, uh, did the most compromise. He said, all right, I'm going to go get a sandwich and a Coke. You sleep. I'll wake up in 15 minutes. And if it's not raining, we're leaving. And I was like, done. So he did that. Uh, and Matt and Misha, we're all, we were still all there together. And, uh, they were stronger riders than me, so I need them. So he kicked me to wake me up, and I was like, let's go. And, uh, it kept getting, then it got light, maybe two or three, two hours later. So the [00:17:35]Craig Dalton: rainstorm, did it materialize? [00:17:37]James Gracey: No, it didn't rain. I told him it was going to rain and showed them the radar. they're stronger than me, so they finished before me. I was like, I was on the ridge by myself. The rainstorm was right behind us. Like I'm watching the lightning storm roll in. And the lightning storm went around just like that. Sounds like you [00:17:58]Craig Dalton: just convinced these guys you needed a 15 minute nap. [00:18:01]James Gracey: I need 15 minutes, yeah. But they were, they were cool with it and we all left together. Uh, and we met up with another SFR guy named Noah, who's a really strong rider. And, We were rocking through the middle of morning having a great time. Was [00:18:17]Craig Dalton: this the most simpatico group you ever found? Yeah, throughout the time. For sure. [00:18:20]James Gracey: Yeah, without them I wouldn't have finished. Like if it hadn't been, if it hadn't been for them and their enthusiasm to finish um Like Ed had done it 12 years ago and didn't finish Uh, it was Misha's first time. It may have been, I don't remember about Matt Um, but they had a lot of energy and enthusiasm and like hey, let's all We're better off together than we are separately, so let's figure out a way to do this together. Even though Misha was so fast, and he was in like Teva clip ins, he was so fast. We would all start together, and he would take off, and we just wouldn't see him again until the next control. We'd catch up at the control, or at stop, and then we would all leave together. He would, he would take, he's like, I'm just riding my pace. But he was, uh, had a great attitude. Uh, and then, maybe, maybe four, four or five hours before the finish start raining. And then the rain, if it had rained two days earlier, it would have been a different ballgame. But because you know, you can kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel. You, uh, you're motivated and they, they had stopped for coffee. So I went on and they're faster so I figured they would, uh, catch up with me at some point. And then I rode with, uh, I rode with One gentleman from, um, Thailand and one from Indonesia for a while that I think they'd kind of lost hope a little bit. They were, uh, they'd missed their cutoffs by a ways. We saw people and were talking to people that had, their deadline, their, like, time to finish is literally within an hour. And we're a hundred miles away. And they, all they could talk about is, I have to get there, I have to get there. I'm like, slow down. You're not making any sense. You're all over the road. People were, in the last 12 hours before the finish, people are not making any sense. People are not speaking in complete sentences. People that clearly speak English are not speaking, are not speaking English. They're making up things in their head and telling you about them like they're real. And all they said, the only, the only cohesive, Sentiment with all of those people is I'm gonna finish. I'm going to, like, even no matter what they're talking about, rainbows and unicorns or shiny pennies or whatever they got going on in their brain that's not working out because they need some rhodiola, probably, they consistently say, this is, one guy said, this is the, this is the time. This is the year. He said it in like kind of French English. This is the year I'll finish. Yeah. This is the year. Like, yeah. Like he had done this several other times. I had not finished and he was probably 15 years older than me. I'm 51. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, [00:21:11]Craig Dalton: it's so interesting I mean you and I talked about this a little bit on a bike ride one day just Even with Ironman's and different things that we've done. I've always known the finish line was there and within my capabilities, but 1, 200 kilometers In that timeframe, so much can go wrong. Whether it's physically, mentally, mechanically. So [00:21:33]James Gracey: much can go wrong. Yeah. Like some things just are beyond your control and it's unfortunate. Uh, and it's, it's, there are so many opportunities for something to go catastrophically wrong or just to eat up so much time. You're like, I've spent six hours on the side of the road trying to fix this problem and it's not fixed. Yeah. And now I'm exhausted from trying to fix the problem. Yeah. And I haven't made it a single additional mile. Yeah. None of that ever happened to me. It does happen. Like I did see people that happen. We had the event, um, in the end had about a 40 percent DNF rate, which is, they have 4, 800 finishers out of 8, 000. Okay. And was that [00:22:13]Craig Dalton: because it was hot this year or is that pretty average? [00:22:16]James Gracey: I think that's even higher than average. I think the average is like 33 or 35. It depends on where you're from. Some people dropped out because it was hot. It was like maybe 90 the first day, maybe, maybe a little more than that, 90 Fahrenheit. And one guy talked to after the race was over. He said, I dropped out. I said, it was too cold. He was 81 and from Thailand. And so he's, you know, it needs to be 90 for him to ride comfortably. Right. Not, not 80. And he said it was too cold. It was way too cold. And then he just dropped out. So you didn't have any mechanical [00:22:49]Craig Dalton: mishaps. You largely, you know, you, you. You found yourself in the hurt locker physically at certain points, but you kind of just did what you need to do, right? You don't know exactly what the answer is. You just know don't go fast [00:23:02]James Gracey: and hydrate There's no reason to go fast and that you can't ride if you don't drink. Yeah So you didn't [00:23:08]Craig Dalton: you're you're sort of now within 50 miles of the finish line Yeah, you did mention to me you had some some issues. [00:23:14]James Gracey: We had some yeah So I sent you a text at one point said I think I just sent it to you I was like, and my wife, I'm like, I'm pulling out. Like, back, right after breast. And then, we rocked through the night. I mean, we, we slept for the last 37 hours. I slept maybe an hour. And moved a lot. Like, there was not a lot of sit down. And we were working together well, and doing it the way you're supposed to be doing it. And having, like, these really great feelings of camaraderie. And, and, even though it's self reliance, like, you're doing it. With the friendship and camaraderie of others that are like minded and close to the same, uh, physical capability. And it was awesome. And so I got to the last control in Drew. And I was like, I have three hours left. And now it's only 30K. It's like we're maybe a little more, maybe like 24 miles. I have three hours. I'm gonna, I'm like, I was elated. We had worked really hard to get there. and have been raining for a couple of hours, but it's only 24 miles. And, so I texted everybody I knew basically. I was like, I'm going to make it. I can't believe it. Like, my brain is coming back together. It's not in the middle of the night. You're thinking all this weird stuff. And, um, I know what's going on. I'm, uh, I'm helping out with these, these two guys that I've been riding with and have been raining for a couple of hours, but it's only 24 miles. So I sat down, had a meal, which was awesome, and, uh, the two guys I was riding with, only one of them wanted to continue. They'd both missed their time cuts already, and so one of them was going to sleep. Uh, and I'd had a flat repaired. They had a mechanic station there, and I'd been riding a probably 10 pound flat for 10 miles. Because I didn't want to stop and do it in the rain. You've got to get it all out, and it's like it would have taken forever. And I was hoping that there would be a, um, And so we left, and when I got my bike from the, from the shop, my Garmin's not, not working. It just wants me to delete everything. And I turn it on, turn it off, turn it on, turn it off. It's like, I don't know, it's, I've been following signs. There are signs that say either Brest or Paris the whole way. There's probably 20, 000 signs on the route. Were you trying, [00:25:35]Craig Dalton: were you, I'm just curious about this little detail. It may seem super minute, but how were you trying to keep your electronics powered along the way? I had batteries. [00:25:44]James Gracey: I had a battery, I had two solar chargers that were battery packed just in case. Like, I kind of did it the wrong way. I had three lights of just the little trail, I forgot the name of the brand, but it's a mountain bike light that lasts about four hours on low. So I had three of those just in case, because if you don't have, if one of your lights goes out and you get stopped by control, you have to... Joe Davis, Speaking: Wait for it to charge before you can, Craig Perkinsland, [00:26:09]Craig Dalton: Speaking: Because, it's illegal to ride [00:26:10]James Gracey: in that area. Joe Davis, Speaking: That's right. Craig Perkinsland, Speaking: Right, And on the, on this ride without, without a tail light, a headlight and um, reflective gear. And so I had three taillights, three headlights, two big battery packs, and my bike probably weighed 15 pounds too much. And, uh, so everything, you know, was staying charged, I've got the Garmin charge, I've watched charge most of it kind of messed up one day. And So we leave and it's not working and I said, all right, well, it's not, I can't get this right. And so you just follow the signs. I've been following signs. Literally, I could have done it without a Garmin, without directions at all until that point. Yeah. And, uh, we had been warned that people will steal the signs. Okay. That as a souvenir. So you get a sign, they give you one of the signs when you, when you pick up your, when [00:27:00]Craig Dalton: you pick up your bag, [00:27:03]James Gracey: because then they will steal them all in the same place, right next to the end. Right. Right. Because that's where they all are. They're done. They go back on the course and they grab one. And so I'm riding with a, uh, a gentleman from Thailand and we're following, uh, a man from France. I don't know where he was from in France, but he didn't speak any English. And so we're following signs, following signs, and all of a sudden there's no more signs. So it's me, the guy from Thailand, the guy from France, and two people from Germany, a husband and wife team. Um, we realized. Nobody knows where they're going. Nobody's electronics are working. There's no, I see zero signs. And you're just in farmland. And, we're like, alright, well, how do we get back to there? So we started, all of us started going to a, in a direction of a, that we thought, and we got up there, and it's not, it's not the right way. There's no sign. So we realize we're lost. And the gentleman that we were following, because I'm just following, and so you've been doing it for, I'm following the guy in front of me and then the people he's following because he doesn't have electronics. The woman, uh, it was a husband and wife team. The woman has Shermer's neck, which I'd never heard of until two months ago or three months ago. What the heck is that? And I've never seen it. So at the very end, I saw maybe a dozen people with it and it's where it's a condition that you can't hold your head up anymore. So your neck muscles are shot and they're not firing and all you look at if you're on the bike All you're looking at is your pedals. You can't even pick your head up to look past the handlebars You can see you can see your pedals your handlebar and your wheel, but you don't know where you're going If you have to take a right turn, you can't do it She is holding your head up with her fist under her chin. That's incredible And her husband is giving her directions from behind her a little to the right A little, a little, uh, because you can't really, I mean, she's been awake for, you know, three and a half days. And so, we're like, we're following the people with Shermer's neck, and nobody has electronics, and there's no signs. We don't know where we are. We don't know [00:29:14]Craig Dalton: where we are. I can't even imagine how demoralizing that would be. It [00:29:17]James Gracey: was pretty bad. Yeah. Uh, I don't have any, I go, uh, I cannot get anything on my Garmin to work at all. And it probably, it's from, Like, right now, if I were in the same condition, I would say, Oh, you do this and this and this. And, like, logic's kind of going out the window. I think we're going to miss the, we're going to miss the cutoff. I look to see how far, the start and finish town is Rambouillet. And I look to see how far Rambouillet is. And it's, I only had 24 miles from Drew to Rambouillet. Well, now it's like 27 miles. And I'm like, Oh. By, by, like, Apple Maps. And I said, I'm just gonna ride back. I don't know what you guys are doing. The charmer's neck and husband, they left, going in one direction. And we're not going that way. Because it's not the direction of the finish town. I don't know where they're going. So we rode back to where we think we got lost. And we're riding around. The guy that only speaks French is trying to get his garment to work. We're all worried because he and I are in the same group. We're both about to miss cutoff. The other guy... Uh, from Thailand had already missed it. And, I got on my, on my phone, just directions back to, back to the start finish line. I was like, I'm just gonna follow this. I said, this is what, I point to the guy from France, I said, this is what I'm gonna do. You can come with me if you want. And he said, no. He said, come with me. Come with me. I said, but this gets me there, and this has me getting there 15 minutes late. But I know, you know, it's, it's doing it from a, from a bicyclist perspective and I can probably go faster than that. Has me there 15 minutes late, but also it has like seven, you know, construction zone things going on. I'm like, this is, I can't believe I've worked all this all for the last three days and qualification and giving up time with my family. It was kind enough to let me do all this and I screwed it up in the last like 20 miles. Yeah. And I'm going to miss it. I'm going to finish, but I'm, I'm so close to completing it in the cutoff time. Yeah. So we're panicked, and he said, no, he's motioning, just follow me, just follow me. So he literally starts going down a pedestrian path that no bikes are allowed on, or cars, because it's like a sidewalk, going through fields, going in the opposite direction of the finish town. And I see it on my phone, like we're going the wrong way. And he's like, just follow me. And so I'm, I'm like, all right. Do I go with Apple Maps? I don't trust, I don't trust for many reasons. Or do I follow this Frenchman who is pretty emphatically saying, follow me, I, I know where we are. And so I followed him, and we went maybe two or two and a half miles on pedestrian paths, where Apple's saying like, you can't be on this path. And then, we're still gonna get there late, according to Apple. We're still gonna get there late, we're still gonna get there late. And then finally we pop out on this road, and I see other cyclists. So we're back on the path, and so, okay, so we're back on the path, but Apple says, I'm gonna miss my, miss my time cut by 15 minutes still. And so we're, and I'm like, now I, now I see riders, and I just get, I say, look, I can pull us, just get on my wheel, just sit on me, and we'll go as fast as we can. We'll go as hard as we can until one of us passes out. And he ends up dropping off. And I take off and then the path, it still says I'm going to miss it. I've been riding for 20 minutes, it still says I'm going to miss it. And then the path that we're on goes up a one way street the wrong way, which Apple Maps won't let you do. And so as soon as I get to the other side of that, it drops it by 30 minutes. It's incredible. And I'm going as hard, I'm like, I'm head down, going as hard as I can without blowing up. Everything I got until that point. And I realize, like, I realize what has just happened and now I'm going to get there 30 minutes ahead of time. And I breathe, breathe for a second and still going hard. And finally I catch up with these, uh, these guys that are SFR, um, riders. And I'm just like, I'm about to fall over. Like, can I just sit on your wheel? And they let me sit on their wheels, Hans and another gentleman. And I sat on their wheel until the finish line. And got there in time. I was there. And then I'm super worried about the Frenchman, who, if it weren't for him, I'd be on a highway somewhere trying to get back to the start line. Yeah. Following Apple maps. Uh, and if it weren't for him, and he's in the same cutoff as me, so I did see him, uh, after he finished and he made the cutoff. And we had a great, we had a tearful embrace and it was, I was terrified I was gonna miss it. And I have all these emotions. And like, I was totally fine emotionally until I could even see the finish line. I'm like, there it is. Like, let's just, let's just go to it. And then I got to the finish line and lost it and burst into tears. And my friend Ray is there and he's like, wow. . Wow. Because he, he finished, he finished in, in 80 hours I think. Something. Okay. Like he finished really fast. No, he finished in, uh, 74 hours I think. Yeah. And so he had been there and gotten a night's sleep and, uh, and I was just a mess and I've never been like that. And maybe my first Ironman ever, cause I was, you know, I'd built it up in my brain that it was going to be this huge accomplishment and, and it was, it was, it was incredibly [00:34:52]Craig Dalton: emotional. Yeah. Understandably so. I mean, everything you went through to get there, to arrive in France in the first place, and then certainly everything you went through. Over the course of those 84 hours. Yeah. Like to finally like, not have to stress, [00:35:06]James Gracey: to not have to, you know, pressure on you to like, keep going and keep finishing. Yeah. And just where you can, like you didn't need [00:35:12]Craig Dalton: to do anything. You didn't need. It's done. Yeah, it's done. Throw the bike [00:35:15]James Gracey: down, pass out. I couldn't believe it and I made it. Uh, I did an 83, 83 25 I think. Okay. I had 35, 35 minutes to spare. So it was, it was close, especially considering an hour before that I was not going to make it and the time cut off at all. Do you [00:35:32]Craig Dalton: get the sense from some of your other riders that you knew, like Ray, like, did they get involved with groups that were like moving together throughout the entire [00:35:41]James Gracey: course? Ray did for sure because he left at 90 hours and he said he, they had really good groups taking turns. And, uh, and that's, that's. I mean, that's a good way to go. You know, it definitely is, uh, gets you going faster with less effort. Um, there were, there were large groups, probably, probably a lot of large groups from the 90 hour group. Uh, and then our group, I never really saw, I would see, there were, at the occasional control, or we'd leave an even, just a sandwich shop or something. People would say, all right, I'm going to go, and then two minutes later somebody else would leave, and then 30 seconds later somebody else would leave, and 30 seconds behind someone is no benefit. Yeah. So we would have to say, stop. Like, let's all leave in two minutes, and there will be five of us together instead of five individuals spread apart. And some people, I think, just want to do it on their own, and that's just where their, where their mind is, and where their, like, kind of their game plan is. I'm going to do it on my own. I'm like, okay. Yeah, but I need some help. , I need to ride somebody else. . Uh, and they were, uh, I did hear, I heard stories. Uh, I, I heard story of one person that had s schirmer's neck that put screws into her helmet and then taped, taped the screws and then taped the tape back to the back of her bag in the back to hold her head up so she could see. And then one gentleman I had breakfast with the next day. from, uh, he was Irish. He had, he had a, not terrible case of it, but pretty bad, I mean bad enough that he said he had to, he stacked all of his spacers onto his head tube to raise his arms up so he could raise up enough to see it's not the right position. And he said at one point he was looking at his fork and he said he looked at it for two hours in the middle of the night. He said, that's not my fork. That's not, somebody got, somebody while I was sleeping, came in here while I was eating, came in here and changed my fork to this fork. That's not my fork. Who would have done that? Gone through all that trouble. That's a lot of effort. To change, take my fork and give me this other fork. I said, how'd you, what'd you do? And he goes, I had to go back through pictures and find a picture of me standing next to my bike with that fork. To convince myself like, oh, I'm just, Not in the right place mentally to make decisions like this, you know, magical fork theft. Oh, yeah. And, uh, some stories like that I heard a lot of the next day. And a lot of Shermer's Neck stories of people that can't hold their head up. Yeah. And, uh, you could see, I didn't see any of, I didn't see any of this, but I did get told people would come to the finish line and it changes pavement. It goes from hard packed gravel to cobbles for 30 feet maybe. to, to loose gravel dirt in, uh, maybe 200 meters before the finish line. It changes three different pavements. And people would see the finish line and raise their arms and and celebration immediately fall to the ground. Because they have no control over anything. They have You know, something that muscles aren't working on them or they try to raise their arm and race that they would just see him like fall over and they've now crashed 25 feet from the finish line from no, from no reason other than celebrating that they're excited and they don't realize things don't work and yeah, like muscles don't work, their neck doesn't work, their arms, shoulders are all pinched and locked up and he said people are just falling over. Like, oh, person after person, after person celebrating. And they would just crash and they'd have to go pick 'em up. And then I can't imagine a kind of a worst way to . Worst way to end your 90 hour. Yeah. Uh, bicycle ride. It's crashing in the gravel and getting a bunch of rocks under your skin. A hundred [00:39:42]Craig Dalton: percent. So what do you, what do you do after finishing? You just go and crash somewhere and sleep [00:39:47]James Gracey: for a day? Yeah. Uh, I didn't have a plan 'cause I didn't know, I didn't know what was gonna happen. Uh, I did have a vehicle there. Uh, Uh, so I went and stayed in the barracks. So they just open up a big room, basically, in, in one of the buildings and throw cots in there. They have cots and, like, an emergency blanket. And I bought some, uh, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't really thinking right. I ordered a pizza, but I don't think I ever went to pick it up. No, I went to go get a change of mind at a steak. And, uh, so I got some bottles of Evian. She rinsed off and went and laid down. And then people, I went to bed at maybe ten at night. Forty nine to one oesophytoptics. there at five or you know, just before five in the evening and there were people that kept coming in for the next, I was there twelve hours maybe I left at maybe ten in the morning and people kept coming in you could hear them like shuffling around falling over cots and they've been out there for at this point, like four days or maybe even longer depends on when they left because if you are, it's an out and back. So if you're 50 miles from the finish and you want to call it quits, there's nobody to call it quits too. There's not a control there. There's nothing there. You just need to ride ride on end. Yeah. And, and they kind of got, I think they were in probably pretty bad condition. Yeah. I slept, slept well, and then I went and had more food and I've been, I'm still eating, I'm still catching up on food and probably not fluids, but on, on food. Yeah. Um, that it, it just takes a lot of time to put it back in you to gain your weight back. [00:41:26]Craig Dalton: Such an incredible experience and accomplishment. Having done lots of big events, your Ironmans, your Leadvilles, where does Perry Breast Paris fit into the... It's pretty [00:41:36]James Gracey: high. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think that at the beginning. And then I told, it may have been you that I told, that kind of the further I get away from that event, Um, the more special it is. Is becoming to me in my brain like remembering all of I probably have a I probably have a solid year's worth of writing stories Yeah in three days. Yeah, and some of them significant Some of them were like a very low point for me or a very high point for me or just seeing something I've never never seen I've been cyclist my whole life since I was 12. I ever seen Schermer's neck And know what it what it was. That's all dozen of them people that I don't know, you know There were people that were definitely being dangerous at the end, but they don't know they're being dangerous. Like, at one point, we had to tell one, uh, one rider to get away from us. Like, you were riding from the right line across the line to the left line on the other, on oncoming traffic. In fact, for every, you know, hundred meters you're, you're moving forward, you probably did 300 meters of riding because you're just going back and forth. And it's not a hill. It's flat, flat ish, and it's dangerous. And so they, you know, they gotta, they need to be able to stop those. But when do you stop? How do you tell an official? You don't, I'm not stopping to tell anybody anything. I'm going. Like, we're close. I did hear of one gentleman that was, that was just non responsive, 100%. He's standing there, eyes open. He's not saying a word. And he's just comatose. Yeah, and they pulled him. Yeah is what I heard and that probably is having people are the people are just it's in their brains They're gonna go and get this thing done. Yeah. And they like, I felt like I was really mentally prepared for it and these people are way more mentally prepared for it than I was. 'cause I, they're just not gonna stop to, probably to the point of being dangerous. Yeah. [00:43:32]Craig Dalton: But I mean, there's gotta be a little bit of that in you, just inherently in signing up for something like this. You know, as you said before, you know it's possible. You've previewed in your mind the places you're gonna need to go and the pain you're gonna have. Yeah. And you've said to yourself, Unless it's going to hurt me physically or my family, I'm going to keep going. Like, you're right. You're, you're sort of like, I made [00:43:52]James Gracey: those decisions. You make the trade in your brains already, uh, of what it is that you're willing to give up to get to the next control. Are you going to do this? Yes or no. And if you get to a point and you know, the answer is no, because I don't want to. Yeah. Be in the oncoming traffic. Yeah. Like if I were doing that, I'm like, all right, I'm going to finish, but I'm going to go to bed for until I wake up. I'm not going to set an alarm. I'm just going to go over to some grass somewhere and fall asleep. And, and then you can come back and you can finish. Mind if I make you time, but you did it in a safer manner. Yeah. I definitely got the feeling that some people are not, they were, it's almost like the way that I have ever explained, uh, uh, drinking alcohol to one of my kids. Like my kids are in young, young teens. So we talk about it. I'm like, somebody, like, you would never have, like, my son would never have ten beers. Ten. I mean, ten's a lot. But somebody with nine beers in them would. And it's not you anymore. Like, you are not making that decision anymore. It's the person with nine in them that's making the decision, and you gave them authority to make that decision when you had eight and seven and six, and, right, and back it on down. It's the exact same thing. That person, if I showed them a video of themselves, Right now, weaving all over the road, they would make the decision to lay down and go to sleep. Yeah. But it's not them making the decision anymore. It's them, plus 680 miles, or 700 miles, or even further, and, you know, three or four hours of sleep in four days, with this tremendous physical exertion, and this tremendous physical expense. Uh, so they're not making that decision anymore. It's whatever they have kind of predetermined in their mind as their break point. And their break point was pretty far. But, that said, I don't, I think, I, I did read an article that said it was an unsafe event. Like, they're, well, you put 8, 000 people on a bicycle, all at the same time something's gonna happen. It's not gonna be good. And that's just the law of probability. Like, I don't think anybody has died doing the ride in, maybe the last one was 2011 or something. And yeah, that's, uh, that's not, that's not bad. It's not like people are dying on it all the time, or even end up in the hospital, uh, to my knowledge. And for that reason, I think it's, you know, even though there are dangerous things that are happening, it seems to be like pretty safe event. Where you think [00:46:28]Craig Dalton: about the equipment available, the nutrition, like all the stuff. [00:46:36]James Gracey: It's, that's one of the things that draws me to it, to that specific event, like I feel like I feel accomplished as a rider for having done it and haven't gone through some peaks and valleys and a couple of significant valleys for me, like, I feel that makes you feel accomplished if it was just the easy peasy and I sat on somebody's wheel for 760 miles, like I probably still felt accomplished actually, [00:47:00]Craig Dalton: it's a long way, but [00:47:02]James Gracey: But doing it on, uh, what is probably a 40 pound bicycle, probably with solid, probably more than that. It's the same amount of climbing that they 40, 000 feet. Yeah. Uh, with whatever they had available to them and whatever, I mean, I've got heart rate and Garmin and I know the, I know, I see what is coming. I see the hills that are coming up through technology. I've got a relatively light bike. That is, you know, probably one of the, uh, it's probably a fantastic bike for this particular event packs, rain gear, technical gear, super stiff shoes, all [00:47:44]Craig Dalton: your bag of [00:47:45]James Gracey: modern medicine, I've got everything, a big, big top tube filled with rhodiola and, and salt tabs and like, uh, like all kinds of stuff. I can't imagine having done something like that 130 years ago. And and and finishing. Yeah, it's unbelievable to me that I mean people had some grit to be able to To do that like What distance or what level of complication or elevation would you have to accomplish now for it to be equated to that? I don't know. Yeah, but it's definitely further with a lot more climbing. Yeah definitely to match the same Tenacity that they had to go and yeah and say i'm gonna go do that. I mean, it's [00:48:31]Craig Dalton: unbelievable. It's unbelievable Yeah, it's I mean, it's just like everything It happening every four years Yeah, the sheer challenge of what you undertook. It's just amazing. Congrats for [00:48:42]James Gracey: yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It was, it was, it was awesome. I would love to go back and do it again with friends. Uh, as you and I talked about, it's a difficult, it's a difficult event to do with a friend, I think. Yeah. Because at some point, if you're one mile an hour off of the other one, you guys, you have to split up and go on your own. Um, and for, and that's the only reason it would be, it'd be difficult be, be fun to do the purveys together. It'd be fun to do the training together and be fun to make an adventure out of it together. Uh, and be, you know, as partnered up as you can, just like a cycling race. And then when it comes time to like, Hey, this is not working out for one of us. Yeah. The other one has to understand and yeah, [00:49:23]Craig Dalton: no, I think you, you just, you have your own journeys in these events. You have your own, it's your own, it's your own thing. Whether it's these big gravel events or per breasts, Paris, it's just like, Hopefully, I mean, I think that's the beauty of it. Right? You, you get to the finish line, you've all gone through your stuff, whatever that stuff was, but you were out there together. You saw the same things and you come back and you can revel in that shared experience, even though you weren't riding side by side. Yeah. Like [00:49:47]James Gracey: the guys that I rode with the last day, basically, if I saw them right now, I might give them a big hug and I barely know them, but we did that thing. We did that together, especially at the end. And, uh, and have that shared experience and can laugh about it and they all have their own lives to get by. It's not what they do for a living. Yeah. You know, it's a, it is a, it's a hobby. It's a, it's a good hobby. It's a athletic, it will help you live longer. Uh, but in the end it's just a, it's a, it's something you're doing for yourself as much as I tell my kids I'm doing it for them. I want to be around to help you guys later. The way I'm going to be around is stay fit. [00:50:27]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Thanks for sharing the story. Thank you for [00:50:29]James Gracey: having me, Craig. It's, Craig and I've been friends for 20 ish years and, uh, and it's, I'm super, uh, happy and, and really honored to be on your podcast. Yeah. A lot of people follow you and, uh, like even when Craig and I have been in different areas of the world, people said, are you Craig Dalton? Are you Craig Dalton? You have your, your gravel ride jersey on and they're like, do you know Craig Dalton? And one time you had to say, I am Greg Dalton. Right? I'm like, all right. It's, uh, so it's, it's fun to be a part of that. Awesome. Thank you very much. [00:51:02]Craig Dalton: You're welcome. I appreciate having you. Um, I was stoked to document some of this journey cause I want your kids and family to listen to it and hear all your stories and all of our friends. And hopefully everybody else out there will check out Peri Express Paris. There's a lot written about it. There's a lot of resources and you can see the journey that many people went on this year in 2023. Yeah. [00:51:23]James Gracey: Yeah. Thanks Greg. Awesome. [00:51:25]Craig Dalton: Thanks man. Yeah. That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel rod podcast. Big, thanks to James for coming on and telling us all about Perry breasts, Paris. I hope like me. You enjoyed learning a little bit more about the sport of randonneuring and such a story to event they have there and France. I forget if we mentioned it during the show, but it only happens every four years. So it's such a big deal. To arrive at the start line and get to the finish line. It's definitely one of those bucket list events. I was thrilled to get James on the microphone to talk about it as I wanted to document his experiences. So you could share it with his family first and foremost, but also to all of you. If you're able to support the podcast, please visit find me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels   

Awareness • Ownership • DetachmentDo you feel like having all the answers and knowing exactly what's coming next is the only way to feel safe? Yeah - So did this week's guest but eventually, after much burnout, Jessica Eley realized that the “smart” way wasn't always the best way for her! In this conversation, we dive deep into "normal"  .. .What the hell is normal anyway? It's totally subjective and depends on the context. Jessica discovered that curiosity was her savior.Get curious, figure out where you need and want to be at any given moment, and then live into it. Let go of right and wrong through patterns and so much more. join us as we explore Jessica's journey, her triumphs, and how she found her own path. It's all about embracing who you are and finding your own version of success. Let's get into it!Episode Takeaways:Often gifted kids have just learned to perform really well.Jessica felt like she always needed to know what comes next in order to feel safe.“Normal” is fully subjective and contextual.Burnout was a result of, finally, facing things I had previously ignored or thought were “normal” but later realized they weren't.Stop doing it the “smart way” if that doesn't freaking work for you.Curiosity saved JessicaAlthough you may not be getting some paramagatic from the “smart” or “right” way - but you're getting something from it.Take account of where you are right now, in this moment, and what you want and need to be your best self.So much of Jessica's success is knowing the difference between the thoughts she receives and the things she's “supposed” to think.Celebration: Jessica loves lowkey celebration in the form of integration. Charity: Charity Water, Trees for the FutureContact Jessica on her website and Instagram. Let's connect ...Follow us on Instagram and connect with our host, Heather Vickery here.ORDER YOUR COPY OF F*CK FEARLESS - MAKING THE BRAVE LEAP TODAY, Click Here!Order your Create Brave Manifestation Card Decks here.Share your feedback by emailing heather@vickeryandco.com or via Instagram DM's. 

Today's guest is Travis Baucom.   Travis is the founder, and CEO of Balcomie Capital. Balcomie Capital is a boutique firm for high-net-worth and high-income individuals that specializes in a seldomly invested but well-known property type that performs better than most others.  -------------------------------------------------------------- The Challenges of Managing Rental Properties [00:02:25] Transitioning to Self-Storage Facilities [00:01:54] Unloading the Rental Portfolio [00:07:15] The challenges of managing a large portfolio [00:10:05] Transitioning to self-storage facilities [00:11:45] Working on a self-storage development deal [00:16:33] High Net Worth Individuals and Ultra High Net Worth Individuals [00:20:20] Lessons from Flipping Houses [00:21:33] Contact Information [00:22:00] -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Travis:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/travis_baucom/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/Travis-Baucom/8359225/  Twitter: https://twitter.com/TravisBaucom?s=20 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travisbaucom/ Website: https://balcomiecapital.com/   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Travis Baucom (00:00:00) - Like the short term middle business is just like the flipping business in the sense that you're always on, you're always game, you're always having to, you know, focus on customer service, etcetera, etcetera. Storage is like managed. It really is. You set it and forget it. One of my I have 50,000ft² that's managed by one person. 396 tenants. She's awesome. And I call her maybe once a month. Welcome to the How to scale commercial real estate show.   Sam Wilson (00:00:27) - Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big. Travis Barker is the founder and CEO of Alchemy Capital. Alchemy Capital is a boutique firm for high net worth and high income individuals that specializes in the seldomly invested in but well known property type that performs a lot better than others. Travis, welcome to the show.   Travis Baucom (00:00:51) - Hey, nice. Nice to. Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.   Sam Wilson (00:00:54) - Absolutely. Travis. I appreciate it. There are three questions, the three questions I ask every guest that comes on the show in 90s or less.   Sam Wilson (00:01:01) - Can you tell me, where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Travis Baucom (00:01:04) - Yeah, so I started in the residential space buying single family homes, specifically foreclosures back in 2012. I didn't have a lot of money, so that was kind of that that's if I was going to get into real estate investing, that was going to be the only way to do it. Or at least that's how I saw it. And I really wanted to be in the residential space. Over the next eight years, we bought over 400 houses and then we realized that, you know, this is probably not where we want to be long term. It was going to be a hard place to ever retire from because of the the plate spinning and the wheels that are always spinning. And the residential space made a big switch to self-storage for the most part exclusively self storage. We have a few, you know, hobby projects that we do. But yeah, we, we own over 1800 units of self storage facilities in Texas, one in Oklahoma, very large.   Travis Baucom (00:01:54) - We we focus on buying like a mom and pop property and then expanding it. You can make tremendous yield doing that. And as far as moving forward, we're going to focus on the acquisition and the development of Class A self storage facilities.   Sam Wilson (00:02:11) - And that's really, really cool. I love that the 400 houses, that's that's a lot of houses to buy. A lot of closings. That's a lot of paperwork. Like how in the world and do you still mean with those rentals with those houses.   Travis Baucom (00:02:25) - Yeah So so you had you had to buy it and that's 400 transactions and then you had to sell them, which is another 400 transactions and not including the utility payments and the constructions and the massive amount of employees it takes to manage that stuff. And so, yeah, that's we bought, like I said, in 2012, we bought our first house, bought another house late 2012, 2013, about four houses we started. We kind of were tripping up or falling forward or failing forward, whatever you have have.   Travis Baucom (00:02:53) - So we mess up and be like, Man on the next one. We're going to fix that. And then we get to a point where we were buying 5 to 7 houses a month, then 10 to 15 houses a month. It was kind of backloaded, meaning that we kind of, you know, ramped it up. And then 2016, 17, 18, we bought a ton of houses. So 2016, but 56, 2017 was 87, then 2018 was 91 until October of 2018. And then I got I was so burned out of trying to keep it all together, I hadn't been able to take a break. No. Vacation. We didn't have money for vacation. We were just continually putting money back into the system. And I was like, This sucks. Like like give me a job for 75,000 bucks. Like, like, I'll take it immediately. You know, that wasn't even what we lived on, you know, It was just like I was just so miserable that I was willing.   Travis Baucom (00:03:46) - Like, I remember seeing a homeless guy once panhandling, and I'm like, man, like, dude, just got it. He's got it so easy. All he has to do is hold out his hat and get paid money and have some sob story. You know, here I am, like trying to keep every banker and construction guy or, you know, contractor at bay and in private investors and employees afloat. Like it was like all on me. It's like that that statue with the dude with the world on his shoulders. You know, it's a horrible way of making wealth and making income. I'll just tell you that. And I will I will debate anyone on that topic because I have the stories to prove it. But yeah, it was there was we made a hard decision in 2018 to quit and just like started we had at that time, we had 40 renovations going, 42 renovations and 72 single family home rentals. And we just I was like, I'm just going to wind down and restart.   Travis Baucom (00:04:41) - I like in my head I was like, We should have like 700 grand. When all this is done, everyone will be paid back. Debit card or credit cards will be paid back. In reality, that's not what happened. When we like the the values were greatly skewed. The renovation budgets were way under budget. And you know, when you go 20 grand off of a renovation, it's not like that money just comes out of nowhere. That's a profit from another deal. You had to put in that and you're not able to live on that. You're not able to pay payroll on that. And so no. One, I have not met anyone. There's three operators in America and I know most of the massive house flipping operators. There's three operators that I think actually do well on it. Otherwise, everyone has struggles. I see more people struggle on this single family game. Then I see people successful in the single family.   Sam Wilson (00:05:32) - Game and that way you guys were strictly flipping or were you? I heard you say rentals or Yeah.   Travis Baucom (00:05:37) - We had 72 rentals to go. We were to my before everything just kind of dried up. I was planning on just like we're going to buy rentals and, and then when I get to 300 rentals I'm not flipping houses anymore and I'm firing everybody. I'm going to hire a really smart person to manage all three of those. And I'm and I'm going to retire because I hate this so much. But you have issues like when you have 72 rentals and they're class C, class B rentals and you have Hvac s, those tenants are too busy surviving to replace the filter. Yep. You know, and if they're not surviving, they're probably, you know, like just doing other things that will cause them to forget to take care of the property or they just don't care. And, and so your AC goes out and then that's all the landlord fault because he put in a crappy AC even though that the AC was new 12 months ago they just, you know like we had this really rough small apartment complex.   Travis Baucom (00:06:33) - The tenants would actually take the fiberglass. Uh. A filter out and like strip it and put it in their joints. So. Because he knows why. Why are y'all doing this? Like what? What the hell? This is not good for you. Like, oh, guess it's a little higher. I'm like, Gosh, Oh, my God. Just give me just leave. I just want to be out of this so fast. It was that was that was the worst. I think it's still the worst property in that in that market. Just such a I don't the guy I sold it to is a friend of mine now and he still every time talked to me he hasn't gotten it full so.   Sam Wilson (00:07:07) - All right so now we the 65 seven.   Travis Baucom (00:07:08) - Yeah. So that's why get out of it.   Sam Wilson (00:07:10) - Now we know why you got out of it. What did you do with the rental portfolio? How did you unload that?   Travis Baucom (00:07:15) - Just sold. Yeah. So? So 2018 In October 2018, I actually ran out of money.   Travis Baucom (00:07:19) - We just were so because everything, everything had just explained, just we were out of cash. And so I was like, well, I can't make payroll and I don't really even like these employees anymore because they they're, you know, that guy is the one that under underbid the property. He paid too much for the property. This guy is the one that paid the drywall bill three times the same guy. I didn't realize that. You know, like all y'all are fired. And so I fired everybody on one one day. And I took I went home. 42 renovations, 72 houses. I list everything we had. And so, like, I spent 2 or 3 days. I was a real I'm a real estate broker and I listed everything I had. And if it was a half done project, we would list it like somebody wants to buy it for what we owe on it, we'll take it. And so at that point, I just took tranches of five. Like, I'll take these five houses and I'll renovate these five houses with these five crews and then these five houses and these five houses.   Travis Baucom (00:08:12) - And eventually the crews didn't like the way all of a sudden they had the gravy train. They would just submitted invoice get paid and was like, No, you missed the spot, missus. I was just all of a sudden running my business like a business. And they were used to my construction manager just writing a check whenever they needed any money for anything, for whatever reason. And then. Yeah, And then the 72 houses, like we sold some tranches of those, you know, the property manager was still money. We found out, I found out after every every can everybody that the property manager was actually just kind of milking us, you know, like not, you know, telling us to replace final plant that had been using his construction company to replace all do all the work. So real bad. Just real environment, honestly, was the worst. That's the only word I can think about using. Um, and yeah. And so we just it took me 28 months to unwind all that and then we were out of it.   Travis Baucom (00:09:03) - We didn't have most of it. Most of the debt was paid off if the debt hadn't been paid off. We had agreements for those people. And so every bank, despite that catastrophe, every bank got paid back plus interest, every hard money lender got paid back plus interest. Every investor get paid back plus interest. And if they didn't get paid back plus interest and we were setting up monthly payments with them. And so my thought is if I could just took care of the people that helped me get to where I was, then they will help me get to where I want to go.   Sam Wilson (00:09:31) - And so and so you said, all right, you had enough enough of the housing game that were you out that killed you. What what did what are you going to do differently? Because, I mean, it's one thing and I'm going to I'm going to offend you here maybe a little bit. But you seem like somebody who likes to shoot straight. So it's one thing to say, well, you know, employees did this, employees did that, employees did this.   Sam Wilson (00:09:52) - But there has to be some lessons for you in there as well, like from a from a leadership perspective and also from a in my next company, in my next version of real estate, I'm going to do something differently. What are some of those?   Travis Baucom (00:10:05) - Yeah, yeah. And thank you for calling me out on the the the finger pointing. So to say that a different way is not everything that happened in my business was my fault. I did you know, there was so much going on. I didn't know the guy was the drywall guy was getting paid three times for one job, you know, But everything was my responsibility. And that's when I took, you know, and I was so burned out, I'd have been like, just slagging and slagging. And then then I'm like, all right. Like, for me to get out of this without losing everything, gotta make some hard decisions. And so that's when so the 28 months of me like, you know, the first 7 or 8 months of that was pretty painful because we were still out of cash, people wanting money.   Travis Baucom (00:10:44) - We were having to explain the same story over and over. And so one thing that I did to choose, you know, I chose not to do. One thing that happened when I decided to take everything home is I read Ray Dalio's book Principles. Um. Good news for everybody that doesn't want to read a book that's 1800 pages, whatever. You can just get on YouTube and Google. Ray Dalio principles. There's actually an animated version of that entire book that goes that's covered, very entertaining. That's done in 34 minutes, so you can learn all the principles. In the book principles that you need to. And so one of those principles for me is if I'm going to invest in something, it has to be making money every day, every week or every month that it has to pay cash flow every day, every week, every month. So flipping a house is just out of the question. Like we might flip a house Just. Just to make a quick buck. But we're not going to build a business flipping houses ever again.   Travis Baucom (00:11:45) - Right. And I don't recommend anyone doing that if you're listening to this. And so. So by focusing on assets that make money every day, every week, every month, we eliminated most of the stuff we had been doing. And so the highly speculative, highly value add house buying business. And so. So originally we started buying short term rentals before Airbnb took off. Those are working really well. Those make money every day or every week. And then we're like, All right, hospitality assets are pretty risky in a recession. They don't perform very well. So we're going to need a hedge. So how do we hedge? Just find the most. What is the opposite of a really, you know, hospitality makes really great yield in a good, good market, especially in a good, a good, good economy and a good market. What's the market or what's the asset class that we need to buy in to make sure we hedge for this? And that's where we found storage. And then after we bought our first portfolio storage portfolio, I'm like, I'm selling the short term rentals because because self storage is so easy compared to, you know, driving Friday evening when I'm hanging out with my son and having to fix a whatever, you know, whatever the heck Wi-Fi password issue or something like that, driving 20 minutes and 20 minutes, it goes an hour of my life.   Travis Baucom (00:13:00) - And just also, that lady might give me a five star review, you know, And I'm like, that's not the life I want to live. I want to set it and forget it. Like, this is like the short term middle business is just like the flipping business in the sense that you're always on, you're always game, you're always having to, you know, focus on customer service, etcetera, etcetera. Storage is like manage. It really is. You set it and forget it. One of my I have 50,000ft² that's managed by one person, 396 tenants. She's awesome. And I call her maybe once a month. And so like if I think of I need to call, see what's going on, sometimes it's just send a text because she has it down. I can pull up immediately, I can pull up the dashboard and realize, oh, 98.1% of our tenants have paid on the fifth part of fifth of the month. I don't have to worry about it. She'll call me if there's a fire, a robbery or a theft, or if something catastrophic is happening.   Travis Baucom (00:13:54) - Otherwise I just need to call her and make sure she knows I'm thinking of her and that she's valuable to my company and that we really think are thankful for her, that sort of thing. So. Right. It's the opposite of like having to like do massive operations and take care of human beings in short term rentals.   Sam Wilson (00:14:12) - Oh, human beings and short term rentals or even I mean, just just looking at.   Travis Baucom (00:14:17) - Generally.   Sam Wilson (00:14:18) - Well, just going back to the flipping business. I mean, my gosh, like, I'm with you, man. I did a lot of it. Not nearly as much as you did, but I did a lot of it. And it's like I just I couldn't go back to it. I couldn't go back to it. Too many moving parts. And I think I think part of what I hear you saying here is building, because for some people, flipping is fun. Like, they want to do that. They want the phones, they want they want the busyness, they want the contractors and the painters and this and that and the closings.   Sam Wilson (00:14:43) - And there's something they just enjoy that frenetic activity. But it sounds like for you, you've really want to build a business. It kind of suits who you are, maybe not so much necessarily chasing the like.   Travis Baucom (00:14:55) - Hey, totally.   Sam Wilson (00:14:57) - Massive empire you're building.   Travis Baucom (00:14:59) - So, you know, in 2018, when I wrote down Principles of How I Want my Life to look, yeah, I also wrote down like, because I was so frustrated and sad and angry that I hadn't been able to create the life I wanted in eight years of flipping houses or six years of flipping houses. And so I'm like, What do I really want? I'm like, Well, I want stars. Season passes. I want maps, season passes, I want this, I want that. I want to be able to mountain bike. I want to go for vacations a year with my family. I want to go on four getaways with my wife. All this stuff that I'm writing down, I'm like, I'm going to create this now and fund this environment as opposed to my business owning me.   Travis Baucom (00:15:33) - I'm going to actually own the business and it's going to serve me the way I want it to serve. And so that's that's another reason why short term rentals are gone. And self-storage is is where we're headed because we just you know, I can go mountain biking on Monday and I can go mountain biking on Friday and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday can knock all the stuff out I need. And sometimes I don't even have those three things. When we're raising capital, we're really busy. But when when we aren't raising capital, we're just looking for the next deal. And that takes 3 or 4 to five hours a week to do. Right.   Sam Wilson (00:16:02) - What's the deal you're working on right now? You know, there has been incredible interest, obviously, in the self storage space. Yeah, I'm thinking back from when I first started really learning about and investing in commercial real estate, which is now seven years ago, you know, self storage was it was warm ish, you know, and it became a very hot asset class.   Sam Wilson (00:16:22) - I think it is still has a lot of attraction for a lot of people. But what's a deal you're working on right now? And why is why is it in particular a great deal?   Travis Baucom (00:16:33) - Sure. Sure. Yeah. Would like to hit on the reason why self-storage is hot right now is just to work from home is primarily the reason. And then there's a lot of traffic, a lot of trains transitioning of housing. So those two things are driving a ton of demand because if you're if you're at home and Airbnb, who pays a ton of money since you're talking about short term rentals, they pay a ton of money for their employees. And they literally said, hey, indefinitely, you can work remotely, you can work wherever you want. We're not going to tier your salary like Facebook is tearing people's salary depending on where they live. So me living in Waco, Texas, if you work for Facebook, you're going to make a lot less than if you were. San Francisco is call it. They call it like the work work market algorithm or something like that.   Travis Baucom (00:17:16) - But Airbnb is like you can work indefinitely. So several buddies of mine in Waco that it would never work for like a national company now just they work for a California company and they make like $130,000. It's a huge salary in Waco. And so so what that says now that you can work at home indefinitely, you just cleared out the room that you had all your boxes in your storage room and now that's your office. And so a lot of that's happening. The deal we're working on right now is in Texas. It's an Austin MSA. It's a city called Georgetown, Texas. It's the wealthy or most expensive, fastest growing. Suburb of Boston. Um, and it is it's grown 35% in five years. So healthy growth is 2% a year according to Gallup. Um, so should have grown 10% it three and a half. That so we're building a huge one of the last C1 zone areas meaning C1 is a zoning that allows storage by special use permit. So there's not going to be that many places that anyone can even build a storage facility or get permission to build a storage facility.   Travis Baucom (00:18:27) - So we're building it at the corner at a major intersection in one of the last zoning plots that is allowed to build storage. It's 967 units. It's 107,000ft². It's main. It's going to be managed by extra space, which is about to be soon to be the largest facility owner in America. Um, they have some of the highest or some of the most advanced technology. We're going to get that thing filled up really quick. It's going to be awesome. Um, it looks more like a hotel than it does a self storage facility. It is gorgeous. It's beautiful. And, you know, our our cost is somewhere around 17 million for that stabilized value on the five years, 26 million stabilized value on a ten years closer to 33 million. And that is based on a five and a half cap, which is where public rates are. So buying.   Sam Wilson (00:19:18) - Wow, that's cool. I wish we had more time to dig in to have you back on the show here in a few months and just follow up and and get the update on on that project because that mean that's one.   Sam Wilson (00:19:31) - So it's a development deal, right? Yeah. There's a lot of ground out there. Yeah. Ground up deal. So people are afraid of development right now. In general, you're in self storage, But yes, it's a hot asset class. But I think on a on a probably dollar for dollar, you know, multifamily to self storage, the dollars probably don't even compare self storage still doesn't hasn't been trading nearly as much as maybe what multifamily has. So I think you're still in a really cool asset class on that front. You're in a booming town in a in a C1, What do you call it? The C one Zoning, Yeah, all of those things together sound like a really fantastic project. Give us just maybe the 22nd version of, Let's see, we're recording this on May 30th. What what, what is capital doing right now? Like, what are, what are someone you have an awesome project like this. Any challenges on that front? Any successes on raising capital in this environment?   Travis Baucom (00:20:20) - Yeah.   Travis Baucom (00:20:20) - So I'd break it down to people with high net worth individuals and then ultra high net worth individuals, high net worth individuals, which probably were me and you would fall in. We our available cash is either on the sidelines we're not gonna put anywhere or it's in deals. Right. And we're living off of our income don't have an income. But um, ultra high net worth individuals, they are still interested sporadically. The hard thing about storage is, you know, most people's visual or mental picture of a storage facility is just a crappy, like metal building with some boats around it. Maybe a. Breaking Bad meth or something like that. And so it's not really well, well appreciated it at this point. But but yeah, ultra high net worth individuals are still are still committing for deals they are running bigger checks. You also have you have private equity. You get family offices. Those come with a lot of strings attached. A lot of you basically lose a lot of your control that way. But if it's, you know, if you want to get a deal done in 2023, 8.25% interest with wherever the heck inflation is, that might be your only option.   Travis Baucom (00:21:32) - Right?   Sam Wilson (00:21:33) - Right. Very, very cool. I love it. Travis, thank you for taking the time to come on the show today. I certainly appreciate it. I learned a lot from you, certainly from the pains of flipping 400 houses and then exiting that finding what you're into now, why you love it. I mean, the idea that your phone doesn't ring certainly speaks to my heart. That's a that's an amazing asset class to be. And I'll call you once a month and we'll see see how things are going. So very, very cool if our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Travis Baucom (00:22:00) - Yeah, the best way is on our website. It's dot invest in storage deals, dot com.   Sam Wilson (00:22:09) - Invest in storage deals. We will make sure we put that there in the show notes. Travis, thank you again for coming on today. I do appreciate it.   Travis Baucom (00:22:15) - Yeah, appreciate it, man. Thank you.   Sam Wilson (00:22:17) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast.   Sam Wilson (00:22:21) - If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

Title: Straight outta Kingston!Keywords: Tragically Hip, Canadian rock, podcast, musical journey, storytelling, discography, live tracks, vinylIn this episode, join JD and friends Pete and Tim as they embark on a musical journey into the world of the Tragically Hip. As die-hard fans of the band, they discuss their experiences and thoughts on the music and storytelling of the Tragically Hip. From their early beginnings to their debut album and beyond, JD, Pete, and Tim break down the tracks, compare studio and live versions, and explore the unique sound and identity of this iconic Canadian rock band.https://ratethispodcast.com/ghtthChapters:(0:00:00) - Getting Hip to the Hip(0:07:46) - Musical Roots and Taste(0:17:52) - Canadian Rock Band Discussion(0:36:02) - Exploring the Tragically Hip's Debut AlbumJoin the discussion on Twitter and Instagram at @gettinghippot and join the Facebook group at facebook.com/groups/fullyandcompletely. Questions or concerns? Email JD at JD@gettinghiptothehip.com.Subscribe, rate, and review the show at gettinghiptothehip.com.The live music featured in this episode comes from:Dead Flowers - 1985 BathAll Canadian Surf Club - 1989 LondonTranscript0:00:00 - Speaker 1Hey, hip bands. it's JD here. Have you ever imagined what it would be like if you could listen to the tragically hip for the first time again? This is something I've spent a great deal of time considering. I can still remember my first experience with the band, While it was a while ago. I still remember it like it was yesterday. It was July of 1990, and I was working in a small town quick serve restaurant in Dairy Bar called Yeti's Arctic Safari. The new owner, Jeff, brought in a stereo system to replace the dinky radio that had entertained us with classic rock while we worked. He had a mix tape that featured a band he called The Trag. As the first notes rung out, something happened inside of me. The music resonated with my 13 year old self. I could feel a change coming over me that was more powerful than the puberty I was working my way through. It was hard rock, but it was different than the hard rock I was listening to at home. Instead of dripping with machismo and bravado, this music cut deeper to me. It featured lyrical twists and turns. the phrase that left me wanting more. Fortunately, I got to come of age with The Trag, the hip. Most of my experiences I discussed on the podcast fully and completely with my friend Greg, And while that podcast satisfied my desire to share my takes on one of Canada's greatest bands, it still didn't hit the mark of taking me back to that moment at Yeti's Or the longing I felt listening to Road Apples, the ahas I had with fully, completely, The coming of age I experienced with Day for Night, Or the simmering beauty of Trouble at the Hen House, And so on. That's where this podcast comes in. You see, my friends Pete and Tim have never heard of the hip before. It turns out there are a lot of people who have never heard of the band before. So for those of you that fall into this category, experience the music of the tragically hip along with Pete and Tim as we travel the discography and tackle the music and storytelling of our band, the Tragically Hip. If you're already at Die Hard, listen along and hear what they know, what they notice and how often they get it wrong. Every week we'll tackle a new record. So strap in and get ready to listen to the hip for the first time I'll get ["Tragically? 0:02:17 - Speaker 2Hip"] Long Slice Brewery presents Getting Hip to the Hip. 0:02:33 - Speaker 1Hey, it's JD here and welcome to Getting Hip to the Hip. I hope you are ready to rock and roll. I know my friends Pete and Tim are. Let me just take their muzzles off here and let them have at it. Fellas, before we go anywhere, tell me why you did this, Because it could turn out like incredibly sideways. I don't know where this is gonna go. I think that this is the greatest Canadian band of all time And I think they rank in the world stage as well, but you guys haven't heard of them. So, Tim, what do? 0:03:10 - Speaker 3you think, Thanks for having us, JD. I hope, I hope, I hope. I told my family what we were up to and my oldest son was like alright, do you like this band? If you listen to this band, are you gonna be able to do it? You know this is gonna be like a fucking marathon listening to all the albums. And I said I'm not really sure. You know there, this Canadian rock band from what I know. I remember living at the beach in San Diego and one of my neighbors had a tragically hip sticker on his truck and I always wondered like that's weird, a band popular enough to have stickers on a bumper of a truck. but I don't know who it is. So you know, there's not a lot of bands you know from the past 10 to 20 years who made it kind of big that I'd never, ever listened to any song from. So yeah, we're curious to see where this goes. And you know, of course I've listened to Rush, I've seen Rush play. you know there's all kinds of music out of Canada Arcade Fire, and you know more present. So let's see what the tragically hip is. We'll see if it's gonna be tragic or not. Oh, oh. 0:04:36 - Speaker 1Maybe it'll be super hip Ground. oh God, Oh, he doesn't stop. You wind this guy up and he just does not stop. Oh, finally, P Ground control to major P Yeah yeah. 0:04:51 - Speaker 4So I got into this. this was a court ordered thing for an offense that I've made one time. No, no, no, JD, you asked me to do this and you know I actually have heard of the tragically hip and it's funny because back in like I wanna say, the mid 2000s, like 2006, 2007, I was working at a bar. I knew a couple really good folks that used to come in there a lot. They were both Canadians Kurt and I can't remember the other girl's name And there were a couple and we used to talk about trailer park boys all the time, which they loved. They would always talk about tragically hip And it's kind of one of those things that, like, can't really force anything on people. You know, you gotta kind of just lead the horse to water and hopefully they drink. And then, more recently, in like 2018, 2019, I ran into somebody else and they were just like check out this song and download this out on Spotify And love it was my favorite album. You're gonna love if you like this and I'm just like it. just it wasn't organic And I'm hoping that this, you know, this adventure that we're all three embarking on will be. you know, it'll take, so to speak, because previous attempts had not done so, And I'm excited, though, but I know it's gonna be a big sandwich to take a bite out of, that's for sure. 0:06:29 - Speaker 3You know JD JD, if you would depend. you know some dude from Florida or I don't know. you know somewhere else in the US and asked me to do some other band, US based band or something. I don't, it's hard. my point is it's really hard to say no to a sweet Canadian guy. 0:06:49 - Speaker 1So yeah. 0:06:50 - Speaker 3So you know, it's like I said to my wife Amy, you know JD, who she had heard about but not meant to ask me to do this like multi week podcast about some band I don't know. And I'm a little concerned like what if? what if me and Pete were just like JD? we're gonna have to end the podcast early. We don't get it, you know, but I'm sure we all get it. 0:07:15 - Speaker 4What JD didn't tell you is that the original this was originally gonna be a Papa Roach podcast And we're gonna go through the through the discography of Papa Roach, but last minute he changed it to the end, so thank God, Yeah So where are you No? 0:07:34 - Speaker 1offense to. Papa Roach, Where are you guys hailing from at this point? I mean, I know, but if people are actually listening to this, that means that we completed the task. So that's one thing. Where do you come from And where do you come from musically? 0:07:53 - Speaker 4I live now. I live in Malia, Spain, which is in the south. For those of you who can pick Spain out on a map, it's the closest part to North Africa. but I come from Southern California, born and raised in the LA area, more specific the Long Beach and Downey area. Most of my life in Long Beach, though. Musically, help me out, man. 0:08:27 - Speaker 1I think you're both, like, big fans of music, like the full spectrum, and that's why I chose you, Like you know. 0:08:36 - Speaker 4I'm not, let's put it this way, I'm not a Steve Albini. I don't diss any type of music. Okay, Steve Albini fans out there, I just I let I like there are music that I will gravitate towards and listen to, which tends to be rock and roll, indie rock, Stuff like that. but yeah, I'm never gonna sit there and go. you know, I don't. I didn't like Kendrick Lamar's record. I don't think you should have got out of mother air. Fuck that. like whatever dude, to each his own man. Some people really like it, some people really like this and that. so even those who like poppy roach started bring it up twice. 0:09:15 - Speaker 3We know, we know, we know it. next, the vinyl. Yes, I've lived in Portland over 20 years, just over 20 years this year, But I hail from Southern California as well. So I'm kind of just like a West Coast, you West guy I guess, but lived overseas for a stint of time and hope to do it again because we Head over to Europe at least once a year. Musically, you know, I don't Play anything but air guitar really well, just kidding, kind of not mediocre I guess. and I've, I will listen to a lot, of, many, many genres of music. if you, if this was to not to be like some contemporary Country artists, I probably would have either killed you guys through the, the interwebs, or myself or all of us. That's about one of the genres I just can't do. but yeah, I Drew up, I guess you know, listening to FM radio and Making mixed tapes on cassette and yeah, baby, you know, like I, I could hear. I was telling my son this year that I could hear the first seconds of a song and have record Set up on my tape deck It just record off the radio. So you know, huge music fan from early age, like fifth, sixth grade. So been listening to music forever and a fan forever and at one point, like huge AD of you have lists and track things, Like I tried to start to try to formulate, formulate the shows I've been to in my life, the gigs, because I'm still a Often good goer. I'm still recuperating from the one I went to last Friday night, But, gee she, I've been to lots, of, lots of, lots of concerts. So I feel like I know you know music fairly well and can talk about it and no artists and some personally and, um, yeah, I'm excited to Give this rodeo a. you know, around the Around the corral, see what happens. 0:11:26 - Speaker 1Yeah, I think it's gonna be. I think it's gonna be fun and it's gonna be different. There are gonna be phases We're gonna listen to where you will like it more than others. I'm sure You know Pete the, the person that was telling you you got to listen to this. if this is your favorite record, You would like this. I can't even imagine saying that with the hips, because their uvra is like is all over the place. It starts out as real well, we'll get into it with the p, but it starts out It's, it's bar rock. It's you know, it's It's bluesy bar rock. They were disciples of, you know early Early garage and late 60s stones. You know that type of music. uh, I mean, they had a saxophone in the band, for god's sake, You know. so they were that type of band. Uh, the saxophone ultimately was gone by the time they started to record. That's uh, davis manning, um, but uh, Yeah, It's all over the map. It's all over the map. So why don't we kick into a live song right now and then we'll get talking about the record in in question here, which is the Tragically Hip EP. This is Dead Flowers by the Rolling Stones, covered by the Tragically Hip, with Davis Manning playing sax. Hope you like it. let's get into it. 0:13:20 - Speaker 5Talking to some rich folks that you knew And I hope you won't see me in my rated community. You know I could have been. Thank you, Send me Dead Flowers, by the way. You know, when you're sitting by in your own big black bag Making bets on Kentucky Dirt today, When I'm in my big skin room with a head on my head and a spoon, Another girl did jump in the way. Send me Dead Flowers, by the way. You know, when you're sitting by in your own big black bag Making bets on Kentucky Dirt today, Send me Dead Flowers, by the way. Take me down, let our sins and break me down. I know you think you're the queen of the underground. Send me Dead Flowers, by the way. Send me Dead Flowers, by the way. Send me Dead Flowers, by the way. 0:16:41 - Speaker 1Isn't that great, Yeah, Okay, before we get into the EP specifically, I just played you Dead Flowers and I sent you some other live tracks. Just want to get a sense of what you thought of that first group of songs and listening to this band play them live. 0:17:02 - Speaker 3I thought of so many different things as I first heard some of the songs. I mean, I instantly wondered about Gordon. Some of the songs were specific storytelling. I really wondered about his songwriting process, which I think is one of the most boring questions. I ask a band, But I immediately went to that His vibrato. Okay, that was like instantly, what is going on with this guy's voice and the way he sings? Is he trying to protect his vocal cords? I think some singers use vibrato when they're like on massive tours or something to exercise their voice or something. But you know, it sounded like a really good kind of bar rock and roll. to me That's what it sounded like. It sounded like I want to be in a club or in a bar with like a couple hundred people, You know, drinking not the bats Another great Canadian beer And just kind of rocking out. You could hear the fans loving the band. It sounded very 80s to me too, Very 80s. I mean it was like every song was its own book, if you will, Its own little story, and it just sounded like a reminder me of I don't know, Reminded me a little bit. His voice, reminded me a little bit of how Elvis sings, Reminded me a little bit of Freddie Mercury, But also a little bit sinister, like Glenn Danzig. 0:18:57 - Speaker 1I don't know if you guys know who he is. 0:18:58 - Speaker 3You know, it was just charismatic. He's a very charismatic guy. He's probably a lot of fun to hang out with Gordon. But yeah, it sounded very time specific to that era. 0:19:15 - Speaker 1Well, there's something about it that makes it more time. specific too, Pete. what did you think? 0:19:21 - Speaker 4Well, I gotta be honest with you, JD. I listened fully and completely to the actual EP, The live link that you sent me. The only one that I was able to hear was Highway Girl. 0:19:40 - Speaker 1Oh, and that's sort of cheating, because that came out in 91. So I'm sorry about that. 0:19:46 - Speaker 4No, no, not at all. I mean, I have my comments on the EP itself and kind of what I thought, But I don't want to jump the gun if you're not ready to hear that. 0:19:56 - Speaker 1But I got loads of thoughts, Cool. Well, that leads us to 1986 and them finding their way to a studio with Ken Greer. I'm not sure if you guys know who Ken Greer is. He's a Canadian as well. He was a producer, but he played in a band called Red Rider. If you're not familiar with Red Rider, check out the song Lunatic Fringe, Check out the song White Hot. Those are great songs and he was the guitarist in that band. but then he stepped away and started doing some production work. A friend of mine is the engineer on this record. I found that out years and years ago, but years after I had been a fan. I'm hoping to be able to talk to him for this podcast as well. It would be really cool to hear what he thought back in 86. This EP comes out in 87 on cassette prominently on cassette, but it does come out with a bonus song All Canadian Surf Club on the CD version. CDs were peaking through and they were making their way there. Three singles off this record Small Town, Bring Down Highway Girl and Last American Exit. I don't think that any of those songs are a surprise in terms of singles when you listen to the album in its entirety. This record isn't my favorite, but as a collection of songs it acts as sort of An amuse-bouche, as it were. What did you guys think of this record? This is your first time hearing it and first time talking about it. We'll start with you, Pete. 0:21:44 - Speaker 4I made a point of putting myself into multiple scenarios when I listened to it. I kept having this struggle because I remember you saying you said to me multiple times, and every Canadian who I've ever talked to about this band has said, oh, they started out as a bar band. I kind of got that in my head and I was like something I wanted to shed and not really pay attention to, because you don't really take a bar band seriously. You know what I mean A bar band is a bar band. But then I understood, the more I listened to it, kind of what you, What the Canadians, including yourself, JD, meant when you said that. And I got so much I mean I'll be honest with you The first track So the first time I listened to the record I went for a run And then I listened to it sitting at my desk and doing some work and then just kind of like alone, not doing anything, Not preoccupying myself with all this stuff. The first song, I was just like And you said that was a single, correct? 0:22:54 - Speaker 1Yeah, first single. 0:22:56 - Speaker 4It just. I mean, I was Every time wildly underwhelmed. It didn't hit me at all. Last American Exit it picked up a little bit and then Killing Time was just, I mean, that was a fucking bohemian. 0:23:50 - Speaker 5I got a kick when I walked down And I said I'd done my girl to tap To make my wounds with the sea dog sound A drink. I never wanted to, but it's for the never to take you back, My old man. I was all that bad. What you call compromise? I don't understand. What you call compromise. I don't understand. I walk away. I do you walk away? I walk away from a woman that comes down here on. She had done it wrong. I need your confidence even though you're mine When it gets right down to the killing time. I know your heart's bad, But it's all I've ever had. We can never lie on this righteous crime. I do you walk away. I do you walk away. I walk away from a woman that comes down here on. I know this time we walk away. you just can't walk away. I walk away from a woman that comes down here on. She had done it wrong. I do you walk away. you just can't walk away. I walk away from a woman that comes down here on. She had done it wrong. I need your confidence, even though you're mine, When it gets right down to the killing time. 0:27:50 - Speaker 4It just really really dug it. And what Tim said, too, is is it Rob Baker? 0:27:58 - Speaker 1Yeah, Rob. 0:27:59 - Speaker 4Baker. I can't remember what song was it, but I absolutely got some Huey Lewis vibes on his guitar tone. I mean it was super 80s, and not in a bad way. 0:28:12 - Speaker 1No, I hear you, It's very 80s, like production wise, Because it has no choice but to be. I mean, it was the 80s after all. 0:28:20 - Speaker 4But the weird thing about that is because I was hearing, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was hearing some stuff in terms of like thinking about, okay, like I hear like some like the same sort of stuff you've heard going on in appetite, Because that was around the same time that that record came out. Appetite construction was what 86, 87. Yeah. But then what I really settled on was like there is a lot of like I hear a lot of that record in early Pearl Jam, early Alice in Chains. Yes, I mean his voice too, I think that record. you can see his voice progress into some amazing shit just by listening from song one to song seven or eight, whatever. 0:29:09 - Speaker 1Wow, Okay, We'll have to come back to that because that's really interesting. You can hear it right through the course of the record. 0:29:17 - Speaker 4Oh yeah. 0:29:18 - Speaker 1Tim, what were your initial thoughts? 0:29:21 - Speaker 3Eddie Vedder definitely came up for me because he has he'll get to this guttural I don't know what to call it this guttural vibrato thing where all of his syllables kind of run together and I feel like some of Gordon's singing goes the same way, but it really varies. Just going through the album, just first listening to it, I thought, okay, I kind of catch what this is. and Last American Exit kind of reeled me. back in small town, Bridgetown, was kind of like okay, that's interesting way to start The killing time in. Evelyn, you know, was like okay, who's this Evelyn gal? what is the story here? Like I wanted to know more conceptually what was going on in his head. That's kind of. I mean, I'm drawn to lyrics, you know, and at one point I was like, oh, maybe Evelyn's a cat, you know, I was feeling bad for her, I was worried about Evelyn, you know. but then Cemetery Side Road, so weird it's like let's throw this in there, you know. and so that got me kind of into not not deep rap at all, but you know, like I mentioned before, wanting to know about his process and hearing that they would play music and then he would basically put lyrics to music, and that kind of blew my mind too. not many bands do that. a lot of songwriters, you know, start with their prose or what have you. I don't know, I'm a werewolf baby. what? like kind of honestly did this come out around Halloween? like why, Why is that? Why is that in there? It's so weird. I think Highway Girl was the first song. like Pete was saying, Highway Girl is the first one I listened to and it was kind of a messed up sinister song. it's like where is this going? they're killing people, their cops are on the run, where we dump in the body like WTF is the tragically hip all about. But I will say All Canadian Surf Club. I've listened to that song the most times out of the world. 0:31:37 - Speaker 5There's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. goes over real big. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. It's a song for the summer. it's called the All Canadian Surf Club. 0:36:02 - Speaker 1Yeah, if this was a single song and I'm a werewolf baby, I don't know that I would have followed through on this band. 0:36:13 - Speaker 3It was really fun. but I'm like, okay, some of these songs are very specific to maybe parties people throw. I don't know, it's a wild mix. 0:36:26 - Speaker 1Yeah, yeah it is. And what's interesting is writing credit wise. the chief songwriter at this time is the bassist, Gord Sinclair, writing both songs and lyrics, or music and lyrics and melody. by and large, There's a few songs that are Gord Downey songs and he becomes. as time goes on, he becomes the chief lyricist. He's almost like a poet laureate of Canada, for heaven's sake. But on this one he's got Killin' Time. that he wrote and I'm a werewolf baby is on his docket, So is Highway Girl and so is nope. that's it for him. That's it for him. So I thought All Canadian Surf Club was him, but it was not. Pete, what did you think of All? 0:37:18 - Speaker 4Canadian Surf Club. At first it's really weird because I was like it's funny that you made the distinction about it being on the CD, Because I was like is this song belong in this record? Because it sounded that's the last song, correct? Yeah, it just sounded different, But I really liked it, Like All Canadian Surf Club. and then I started thinking about like is there a lot of surfing that goes on in Canada? And like started thinking like all the places in the world where people don't surf I would think Canada would definitely be on that list. 0:37:59 - Speaker 1Yeah, I don't know where, like there's, you know like little surfing, like little wave surfing, you know like Right. 0:38:07 - Speaker 5Or your water park. 0:38:08 - Speaker 1Yeah, but yeah, the water park, But yeah, not a great deal of surfing. Now, if you are listening to this and you're an avid surfer in Canada, then by all means reach out to us, JD, at getting hip to the hipcom and give us the old what's for there. 0:38:25 - Speaker 3Tofino is the place. I'll just say Tofino, that's tofino. 0:38:29 - Speaker 1Yeah, you know like that's. 0:38:30 - Speaker 3I mean it's on my list to go to someday. 0:38:33 - Speaker 1I'm being schooled here by the Pacific Northwestern. 0:38:38 - Speaker 3Yeah, well, I'm a West Coaster in general. There you go. 0:38:42 - Speaker 1So any themes or any themes or anything like that, throughout these songs um vibing you. I mean, this is, this is a band. you know they say you write your first record. you know, from the moment you start playing, This is what, this is what went down on wax as their, you know, as their first material. And then you enter, you know the sophomore slump or or whatever. but I can, I can assure you you know where we begin with. the next record up to here is, you know, not so much of a slump. but back to this record. Did you like the studio version of Highway Girl? Like, obviously, the live version is is riveting. What did you think of the studio version? 0:39:25 - Speaker 4I liked it. I liked it a lot because it would give you Highway Girl was the only one I had heard the live version of, But, um, I think I liked it a little bit more, but if I put myself in the context of like being at that show, yeah, yeah, I'd absolutely want to much rather see it live. Yeah, of course. 0:39:44 - Speaker 1Yeah, So these songs to me are written. it sounds, it sounds dumb, but this is, you know, a young band and they're not doing any trickery in the studio at all. These songs are written to be played right back on the road, you know, uh, leading the leading the charge of their, of their uh, of their gigs, so they can start to play less stones material and play more of their own material. You can hear that in theoh sorry, Oh no, no, go ahead, man No. 0:40:15 - Speaker 4I was just gonna say like there's some parts where you're just like I remember listening to it and being like dude. I mean I can Just what you said at the beginning, Tim. I could picture myself at a bar with like 100 or 150 people and hearing this band and like 80% of people in there, including the bar staff, singing along to it because it's just so catchy and, like you said, JD, it was like it was written to be played live. 0:40:46 - Speaker 1Yeah. 0:40:46 - Speaker 5You know, Yeah. 0:40:48 - Speaker 3And on the live version of Highway Girl. you know his storytelling. before they were even playing, the audience was eating up. I mean, you hear people laughing, you hear people cheering and I just imagined when they were on tour there was a lot, a lot of banter. I would just guess he's kind of a rambler, you know, connecting with the audience. But at the same time, like hearing that live version and hearing the audience and thinking about them being a bar band, like they really reminded me a lot of the Grateful Dead. Yeah, like I just just I don't know there's something very Bruce Springsteen about it. you know, upstate New York, Cleveland, Detroit kind of, but in all those regions, like the Grateful Dead was huge also and it's just this touring type of band that has a lot of followers. They're going to play like this mixed mash of hits, of songs that people love. you know there's they're going to be a little bit different every time. Just, I don't know there's something about them that didn't make me think jam band but made me think like, oh yeah, these guys definitely have. yeah, these guys definitely have. you know, in the 80s they probably had a couple hundred thousand like real fans by the end of the decade in Canada. Can you remind us where Canada is again? I forget. 0:42:16 - Speaker 1Canada lives on the roof of the USA and we intercept all airmail. 0:42:26 - Speaker 3Yeah, Highway Girl's a weird song, you know, I don't know just like. this whole album to me was kind of a pizza with the works. That's made me hungry but yeah. 0:42:36 - Speaker 5Yeah, I'll drink to that, Yeah. 0:42:38 - Speaker 1I like that. Well, any final thoughts on this record, or what you're looking for in the next record, or you know anything along those lines, Pete? 0:42:51 - Speaker 4You know, JD, you and I have obviously talked over time about the hip and I've talked a few other people, I think one of my co-workers, Barb, who's a big hip fan, and I. you know, I haven't really found a roadmap, It's just been this hodgepodge. It's like Tim said, you know it's been this pizza with the works, but I feel like I've digested this whole record, or I at least eaten it. I'm starting to digest it very well and I'm really excited for the next meal. I'm stoked to take the analogy step further, Like I'm genuinely excited for myself to listen, not for anybody else, if that makes sense. 0:43:42 - Speaker 1Oh, that's cool Yeah. 0:43:45 - Speaker 4Excited. 0:43:48 - Speaker 3I, you know, I really tried to refrain from any listening or research and tried to come up with what I knew about them beforehand and think about that. I guess I'm excited because it is a band from the 80s. I love 80s era music that I haven't really given a listen to. There are certain songs on this album that make me think okay, I can definitely hear some more from these guys, and there's some total headscratchers where I'm thinking what am I in store for? You know, I told my son about this whole exercise and his reaction was kind of like overwhelmed for me at the thought of focusing on one band, so much. And when I first listened to Small Town Bring Down, you know, in his presence we look at each other like oh no, What am I in for? Well, yeah, what is this band going to be like? I dig that song. No, I totally do. 0:44:56 - Speaker 1There's something about it that I grew up in a small town and something about that idea of you know not another small town, hometown, bring down Yeah sure It's generic, It was very storytelling also, though. 0:45:12 - Speaker 3but then, at last, American exit. when we got into listening to that, I was in the car, you know, driving from Detroit or wherever upstate New York, I don't know Coming into Canada, like I was kind of right there. It sounded kind of great. 0:48:59 - Speaker 5Yeah. 0:49:17 - Speaker 3And to know that this band… you know, played together first and then tried to play a handful of shows Till they, I guess, got their bearings and then recorded. I mean, that's what bands did in the 70s and 80s for sure. You know, it wasn't very often that somebody got together and somebody already had 20 songs and they went and recorded. You know, so it's, it's so. this is a pretty a special, you know way to Start up a group. So I'm curious to, I'm curious to hear where they go. I like, I like some of the songs, you know, Yeah well, it gets pretty, it gets. 0:50:02 - Speaker 1You know we're off on a journey. Let's put it that way. This will be. I do, like you know, to carry on the food analogy, I do like this you're in a new country and every day you're gonna get a new dish and it's it's gonna be spiced a little bit differently. Early on it's gonna be a little bit more rudimentary, But as we go on there's gonna be more nuance and you know deeper flavor profiles. and then there's context. you start to Listen to the songs differently because you start to understand the past and what this group has went through and when, ultimately, they played their last show in Kingston, Ontario, and You know almost a third of this country tuned in to watch that like it was like 11, over 11 million people watch. She's the last concert because they broadcast it on our national broadcaster, CBC. Wow, yeah, you know The they they've. they cover a great distance between that time and what you guys are listening to right now. 0:51:04 - Speaker 3So it'll be interesting to To hear from you on this journey as we continue on one other just little mysterious kind of wow fact that I read about them was having to do with Them being double booked with Nirvana in 94. Do you know about this? 0:51:24 - Speaker 1Yeah, they played. they played a show in Milwaukee. It was eight dollars a ticket and it was right to the hip and right. Anna Nirvana was actually opening for the hip. that not opening. it was a double bill, but you know, yeah and. The story from from all the books is that Gord went to go meet Or the band rather went to go meet Kurt and he was passed out on a pool table like he was. he was dead to the world, So they didn't end up getting to meet, but we'll hear an interesting Tribute to Mr Cobain in in a future song, for sure. 0:52:00 - Speaker 3Yeah, I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued, no more. 0:52:02 - Speaker 1Okay, before we say goodbye, we're gonna do one more thing. We are gonna pick an MVP track, One track that you'll take away, that you'll put on a playlist. we're gonna do a playlist for each of you and It'll have your takeaway track from each record, and then you know, when we're done this exercise, We can put those up on Spotify and Apple music. 0:52:23 - Speaker 4Well, for me, I'll do it for me while you're. while you're thumbing through it, Tim, for me, I think the track on this EP would the one that I would Would choose to be would be killing time. Yeah, okay, certainly, certainly, Certainly, to stand out for me might, if I had to pick. Well, you do be a crowd, so there you go. 0:52:52 - Speaker 1Where you at there, Timmy, Hmm, Hmm. 0:52:54 - Speaker 5Hmm. 0:52:55 - Speaker 1Oh, you're gonna predict it. 0:52:57 - Speaker 3I was kind of all over with this. I was no, that's hilarious, I know what you're gonna do too. I was kind of all over with this album. You know it was full of surprises for me. you know I already talked about Evelyn and You know it's like oh, poor Evelyn. whatever The werewolf I'm a werewolf baby Hilarious, like where is this fan going? like, this was a wild ride of an album for me. highway girl, I think was a first song you sent us JD, and That one has so many twists and turns and it just, I think, the most. My recollection, like maybe the most listens, was on that album from via Spotify, highway girl, But it closed out early, strong with me for all Canadian surf club. I think that's a fun sign. No, My. California homie right there. 0:53:51 - Speaker 1AP hadn't written down the whole time for those watching at home. 0:53:55 - Speaker 3That was a fun track. 0:53:57 - Speaker 1That's what, uh, we call the first episode. right there, boom done, theater the mind, we traveled straight out of Kingston. Thanks a lot, fellas. It means a lot. Thanks, JD. 0:54:07 - Speaker 3Can't wait. 0:54:07 - Speaker 1Thanks guys pick up your shit. 0:54:11 - Speaker 2Thanks for listening to getting hip to the hip. Please subscribe, share, rate and review the show at getting hip to the hipcom. Find us on Twitter and Instagram at getting hip pot And join our Facebook group at facebookcom slash groups slash fully and completely. Questions or concerns email us at JD. at getting hip to the hipcom. We'd love to hear from you. 0:54:52 - Speaker 1Do, Do, Do, Do, Do, Do, Do, Do Do. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/gettinghiptothehip/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Same old LA Same old kid Same old Ricky Same old dick I May have just switched To a different dimension; This shit is twisted; And I'm still addicted to Him Huh Can you blame me? I just can't hang, baby Don't be hateful— I'm just , Playing crazy 8's I hate this game; Somebody take me out this place Come, Jesus, save me Make some bacon on my plate Hey lady, It's— Approximately 6 AM And it's raining again And i hate to admit it, but shit I can't listen to Skrillex (Ah-hem) I think I just died Fill me up with. Formaldehyde, (Or whatever it is) I'm clever for this, It's heaven or hell In this city He's looking disheveled, I might need a shovel or 10, To bury him; Or hurry up and marry him Ask Mary Magdalene again If she did or didn't, —doesn't matter though, It's intermission. It's just a swisher, It's just a wish, It's just a glitch This isn't Timmy Turner, But it is, i got a burning question— When's the fucking end I'll get the script in by the end of business, Mr. Just don't plagiarize what's mine again I'll take a Heineken, I'm behind a bit, I lied when I said “amen” Cause i wasn't finished I still need some scriptures in this bitch Let's take a minute. Make my time spin Make my life Infinite, It is, it's him again— Isn't it? But Ian's this just another gesture Hm. Let me check Let me get a ruler just to measure it; The metric system's better; Bet—you're running out of pennies And I'm running out of pleasure I'm running out of — Damn. I had to laugh There's a crack head shaking her ass To deadmau5 He's the man, i guess Hat's off, I guess, Just have a happy WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT. A Capricorn, Since you asked in all caps Daaaaaaamn. Just a minute, Or 6, Ii got 56 minutes left in this bitch, A bag full of sandwhiches (They're vegan) I didn't mean to mean this, yo But i need— WHIPPETS. Ok. WHIPPETS. Yeah? I NEED WHIPPETS. I— GIVE ME ALL YOUR WHIPPETS! Uh, okay. That'll be $9,000 THAT AINT SHIT. I GOT ALL THAT. THIS IS aAAAAAAAA NOT RIGHT NOW, NICK. It's just a— There are no coincidences. ITS THAT GUY. Don't say anything. It's fine. Just be cool. —but it wasn't cool. Last time I saw that guy,… Not a story worth telling, Like I said, I'm not telling on Any of these niggas, They can be sleeping with the fishes, I'm with Timmy, granting wishes, Doing dishes, Damn, it's infinite with Ricky, It gets infinite, for shizzle— This is the beginning to the Never fucking ending I ain't hit the gym in a week I aint been the same since my ex hit me So I don't mind this celibacy, for a century at least I'm the only one who can please me, Please, breathe, Cree Nope, Not me Take it easy' I'm not buying it I'm not buying anything I don't need Why'd you take this away from me ?! It's just TV! It's just TV! The eye knows what you think Without even speaking We know what you need Without even grieving, I seem to reat in peace You do the reat, I just need 3… 3… 3… I just need three good people These three kings, for one good queen I was so good, i had to do it *need to, I'll be here all week, i think Not sure yet— I fucked up my whole head doing whippets, I was 10, and hella curious, What keyboard cleaner does (((Wahwahwahwahwah))) It wasn't altogether impulsive; I had been writing into temptions of LA Cafe all night, if not throughout most of the week, but especially this night—however, I hadn't spent a penny from this paycheck besides rent, and though there was a considerable amount leftover as savings, I had been sure not to spend at all, and hadn't for several weeks even—and I wasn't planning on breaking that spree for more than a moment. Into the morning, my daily routine, as it had become, Pause. What. I don't want to tell this story. You have to. No I dont. Yes you do. I ain't telling anybody shit. I'm not telling on anybody. Ever. Oh shit. OH SHIT. should I stop her? Nah. Keep on walking. What is happening in this show right now? Everything. I'm your living room and I'm just trying to figure out what the heck to do with you. What I'm your living room. Okay. So wake up. What is this I don't know. This is weird …is he talking to his house His living room. This show is weird. Lol is this the show where the guy is bffs with his living room ? Yeah it is This show is weird. What are you doing ? SUPACREE W0AH. X_x LOL. There he is. I found him. Lol Yassss. …. S. Wait. What. We found Skrillex. Shh!! Yeah So is the game over? Uh {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

Same old LA Same old kid Same old Ricky Same old dick I May have just switched To a different dimension; This shit is twisted; And I'm still addicted to Him Huh Can you blame me? I just can't hang, baby Don't be hateful— I'm just , Playing crazy 8's I hate this game; Somebody take me out this place Come, Jesus, save me Make some bacon on my plate Hey lady, It's— Approximately 6 AM And it's raining again And i hate to admit it, but shit I can't listen to Skrillex (Ah-hem) I think I just died Fill me up with. Formaldehyde, (Or whatever it is) I'm clever for this, It's heaven or hell In this city He's looking disheveled, I might need a shovel or 10, To bury him; Or hurry up and marry him Ask Mary Magdalene again If she did or didn't, —doesn't matter though, It's intermission. It's just a swisher, It's just a wish, It's just a glitch This isn't Timmy Turner, But it is, i got a burning question— When's the fucking end I'll get the script in by the end of business, Mr. Just don't plagiarize what's mine again I'll take a Heineken, I'm behind a bit, I lied when I said “amen” Cause i wasn't finished I still need some scriptures in this bitch Let's take a minute. Make my time spin Make my life Infinite, It is, it's him again— Isn't it? But Ian's this just another gesture Hm. Let me check Let me get a ruler just to measure it; The metric system's better; Bet—you're running out of pennies And I'm running out of pleasure I'm running out of — Damn. I had to laugh There's a crack head shaking her ass To deadmau5 He's the man, i guess Hat's off, I guess, Just have a happy WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT. A Capricorn, Since you asked in all caps Daaaaaaamn. Just a minute, Or 6, Ii got 56 minutes left in this bitch, A bag full of sandwhiches (They're vegan) I didn't mean to mean this, yo But i need— WHIPPETS. Ok. WHIPPETS. Yeah? I NEED WHIPPETS. I— GIVE ME ALL YOUR WHIPPETS! Uh, okay. That'll be $9,000 THAT AINT SHIT. I GOT ALL THAT. THIS IS aAAAAAAAA NOT RIGHT NOW, NICK. It's just a— There are no coincidences. ITS THAT GUY. Don't say anything. It's fine. Just be cool. —but it wasn't cool. Last time I saw that guy,… Not a story worth telling, Like I said, I'm not telling on Any of these niggas, They can be sleeping with the fishes, I'm with Timmy, granting wishes, Doing dishes, Damn, it's infinite with Ricky, It gets infinite, for shizzle— This is the beginning to the Never fucking ending I ain't hit the gym in a week I aint been the same since my ex hit me So I don't mind this celibacy, for a century at least I'm the only one who can please me, Please, breathe, Cree Nope, Not me Take it easy' I'm not buying it I'm not buying anything I don't need Why'd you take this away from me ?! It's just TV! It's just TV! The eye knows what you think Without even speaking We know what you need Without even grieving, I seem to reat in peace You do the reat, I just need 3… 3… 3… I just need three good people These three kings, for one good queen I was so good, i had to do it *need to, I'll be here all week, i think Not sure yet— I fucked up my whole head doing whippets, I was 10, and hella curious, What keyboard cleaner does (((Wahwahwahwahwah))) It wasn't altogether impulsive; I had been writing into temptions of LA Cafe all night, if not throughout most of the week, but especially this night—however, I hadn't spent a penny from this paycheck besides rent, and though there was a considerable amount leftover as savings, I had been sure not to spend at all, and hadn't for several weeks even—and I wasn't planning on breaking that spree for more than a moment. Into the morning, my daily routine, as it had become, Pause. What. I don't want to tell this story. You have to. No I dont. Yes you do. I ain't telling anybody shit. I'm not telling on anybody. Ever. Oh shit. OH SHIT. should I stop her? Nah. Keep on walking. What is happening in this show right now? Everything. I'm your living room and I'm just trying to figure out what the heck to do with you. What I'm your living room. Okay. So wake up. What is this I don't know. This is weird …is he talking to his house His living room. This show is weird. Lol is this the show where the guy is bffs with his living room ? Yeah it is This show is weird. What are you doing ? SUPACREE W0AH. X_x LOL. There he is. I found him. Lol Yassss. …. S. Wait. What. We found Skrillex. Shh!! Yeah So is the game over? Uh {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

Same old LA Same old kid Same old Ricky Same old dick I May have just switched To a different dimension; This shit is twisted; And I'm still addicted to Him Huh Can you blame me? I just can't hang, baby Don't be hateful— I'm just , Playing crazy 8's I hate this game; Somebody take me out this place Come, Jesus, save me Make some bacon on my plate Hey lady, It's— Approximately 6 AM And it's raining again And i hate to admit it, but shit I can't listen to Skrillex (Ah-hem) I think I just died Fill me up with. Formaldehyde, (Or whatever it is) I'm clever for this, It's heaven or hell In this city He's looking disheveled, I might need a shovel or 10, To bury him; Or hurry up and marry him Ask Mary Magdalene again If she did or didn't, —doesn't matter though, It's intermission. It's just a swisher, It's just a wish, It's just a glitch This isn't Timmy Turner, But it is, i got a burning question— When's the fucking end I'll get the script in by the end of business, Mr. Just don't plagiarize what's mine again I'll take a Heineken, I'm behind a bit, I lied when I said “amen” Cause i wasn't finished I still need some scriptures in this bitch Let's take a minute. Make my time spin Make my life Infinite, It is, it's him again— Isn't it? But Ian's this just another gesture Hm. Let me check Let me get a ruler just to measure it; The metric system's better; Bet—you're running out of pennies And I'm running out of pleasure I'm running out of — Damn. I had to laugh There's a crack head shaking her ass To deadmau5 He's the man, i guess Hat's off, I guess, Just have a happy WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT. A Capricorn, Since you asked in all caps Daaaaaaamn. Just a minute, Or 6, Ii got 56 minutes left in this bitch, A bag full of sandwhiches (They're vegan) I didn't mean to mean this, yo But i need— WHIPPETS. Ok. WHIPPETS. Yeah? I NEED WHIPPETS. I— GIVE ME ALL YOUR WHIPPETS! Uh, okay. That'll be $9,000 THAT AINT SHIT. I GOT ALL THAT. THIS IS aAAAAAAAA NOT RIGHT NOW, NICK. It's just a— There are no coincidences. ITS THAT GUY. Don't say anything. It's fine. Just be cool. —but it wasn't cool. Last time I saw that guy,… Not a story worth telling, Like I said, I'm not telling on Any of these niggas, They can be sleeping with the fishes, I'm with Timmy, granting wishes, Doing dishes, Damn, it's infinite with Ricky, It gets infinite, for shizzle— This is the beginning to the Never fucking ending I ain't hit the gym in a week I aint been the same since my ex hit me So I don't mind this celibacy, for a century at least I'm the only one who can please me, Please, breathe, Cree Nope, Not me Take it easy' I'm not buying it I'm not buying anything I don't need Why'd you take this away from me ?! It's just TV! It's just TV! The eye knows what you think Without even speaking We know what you need Without even grieving, I seem to reat in peace You do the reat, I just need 3… 3… 3… I just need three good people These three kings, for one good queen I was so good, i had to do it *need to, I'll be here all week, i think Not sure yet— I fucked up my whole head doing whippets, I was 10, and hella curious, What keyboard cleaner does (((Wahwahwahwahwah))) It wasn't altogether impulsive; I had been writing into temptions of LA Cafe all night, if not throughout most of the week, but especially this night—however, I hadn't spent a penny from this paycheck besides rent, and though there was a considerable amount leftover as savings, I had been sure not to spend at all, and hadn't for several weeks even—and I wasn't planning on breaking that spree for more than a moment. Into the morning, my daily routine, as it had become, Pause. What. I don't want to tell this story. You have to. No I dont. Yes you do. I ain't telling anybody shit. I'm not telling on anybody. Ever. Oh shit. OH SHIT. should I stop her? Nah. Keep on walking. What is happening in this show right now? Everything. I'm your living room and I'm just trying to figure out what the heck to do with you. What I'm your living room. Okay. So wake up. What is this I don't know. This is weird …is he talking to his house His living room. This show is weird. Lol is this the show where the guy is bffs with his living room ? Yeah it is This show is weird. What are you doing ? SUPACREE W0AH. X_x LOL. There he is. I found him. Lol Yassss. …. S. Wait. What. We found Skrillex. Shh!! Yeah So is the game over? Uh {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

Same old LA Same old kid Same old Ricky Same old dick I May have just switched To a different dimension; This shit is twisted; And I'm still addicted to Him Huh Can you blame me? I just can't hang, baby Don't be hateful— I'm just , Playing crazy 8's I hate this game; Somebody take me out this place Come, Jesus, save me Make some bacon on my plate Hey lady, It's— Approximately 6 AM And it's raining again And i hate to admit it, but shit I can't listen to Skrillex (Ah-hem) I think I just died Fill me up with. Formaldehyde, (Or whatever it is) I'm clever for this, It's heaven or hell In this city He's looking disheveled, I might need a shovel or 10, To bury him; Or hurry up and marry him Ask Mary Magdalene again If she did or didn't, —doesn't matter though, It's intermission. It's just a swisher, It's just a wish, It's just a glitch This isn't Timmy Turner, But it is, i got a burning question— When's the fucking end I'll get the script in by the end of business, Mr. Just don't plagiarize what's mine again I'll take a Heineken, I'm behind a bit, I lied when I said “amen” Cause i wasn't finished I still need some scriptures in this bitch Let's take a minute. Make my time spin Make my life Infinite, It is, it's him again— Isn't it? But Ian's this just another gesture Hm. Let me check Let me get a ruler just to measure it; The metric system's better; Bet—you're running out of pennies And I'm running out of pleasure I'm running out of — Damn. I had to laugh There's a crack head shaking her ass To deadmau5 He's the man, i guess Hat's off, I guess, Just have a happy WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT. A Capricorn, Since you asked in all caps Daaaaaaamn. Just a minute, Or 6, Ii got 56 minutes left in this bitch, A bag full of sandwhiches (They're vegan) I didn't mean to mean this, yo But i need— WHIPPETS. Ok. WHIPPETS. Yeah? I NEED WHIPPETS. I— GIVE ME ALL YOUR WHIPPETS! Uh, okay. That'll be $9,000 THAT AINT SHIT. I GOT ALL THAT. THIS IS aAAAAAAAA NOT RIGHT NOW, NICK. It's just a— There are no coincidences. ITS THAT GUY. Don't say anything. It's fine. Just be cool. —but it wasn't cool. Last time I saw that guy,… Not a story worth telling, Like I said, I'm not telling on Any of these niggas, They can be sleeping with the fishes, I'm with Timmy, granting wishes, Doing dishes, Damn, it's infinite with Ricky, It gets infinite, for shizzle— This is the beginning to the Never fucking ending I ain't hit the gym in a week I aint been the same since my ex hit me So I don't mind this celibacy, for a century at least I'm the only one who can please me, Please, breathe, Cree Nope, Not me Take it easy' I'm not buying it I'm not buying anything I don't need Why'd you take this away from me ?! It's just TV! It's just TV! The eye knows what you think Without even speaking We know what you need Without even grieving, I seem to reat in peace You do the reat, I just need 3… 3… 3… I just need three good people These three kings, for one good queen I was so good, i had to do it *need to, I'll be here all week, i think Not sure yet— I fucked up my whole head doing whippets, I was 10, and hella curious, What keyboard cleaner does (((Wahwahwahwahwah))) It wasn't altogether impulsive; I had been writing into temptions of LA Cafe all night, if not throughout most of the week, but especially this night—however, I hadn't spent a penny from this paycheck besides rent, and though there was a considerable amount leftover as savings, I had been sure not to spend at all, and hadn't for several weeks even—and I wasn't planning on breaking that spree for more than a moment. Into the morning, my daily routine, as it had become, Pause. What. I don't want to tell this story. You have to. No I dont. Yes you do. I ain't telling anybody shit. I'm not telling on anybody. Ever. Oh shit. OH SHIT. should I stop her? Nah. Keep on walking. What is happening in this show right now? Everything. I'm your living room and I'm just trying to figure out what the heck to do with you. What I'm your living room. Okay. So wake up. What is this I don't know. This is weird …is he talking to his house His living room. This show is weird. Lol is this the show where the guy is bffs with his living room ? Yeah it is This show is weird. What are you doing ? SUPACREE W0AH. X_x LOL. There he is. I found him. Lol Yassss. …. S. Wait. What. We found Skrillex. Shh!! Yeah So is the game over? Uh {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

What problem plagues your daily life? Discover how founder of CITYROW, took some messy action when she realized she needed a sweaty workout that also supported her body and it was nowhere to be found in the market. It's an episode full of jumps, constant learning, and finding the right seat for your success.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Building CityRow based on a personal needWorking out for the body's health & longevityTaking a step forward, listening to feedback, and learningDetermining what you are good at and finding the right seat  * Self-awareness Surrounding yourself with supportive people Episode References/Links:CityRow websiteIGGuest Bio:HELAINE KNAPPFounder & CEO of CITYROWAfter spending years climbing the corporate ladder, Helaine Knapp left the world of publishing for tech start-up life. Group fitness was her outlet while working hard and taking on the hustle and bustle of New York City. Months of spin and boot camp classes left her with a lower back injury, however, and she began searching for a workout that was low impact, but super effective. After a friend suggested rowing, Helaine initially rejected it as something “my dad did in college,” but following a few workouts on a sexy machine, pairing it with total body sculpting moves off the machine, changed her mind and the concept for CITYROW was born. With a mission of delivering a smart, fun, effective workout to all fitness levels, under Knapp's leadership, CITYROW has grown from one studio in New York City to a national omnichannel fitness brand a top-ranked on-demand global program featuring at-home rowers and a fast-growing digital subscription business alongside 12 open studios and 65 franchises sold nationwide! Knapp has yet to row on the water and has been featured as a business leader and a wellness expert on TODAY, Women's Health, ABC, Harper's Bazaar, Shape, Well + Good, Vogue, Yahoo! Finance and PEOPLE, among many others.In this episode you will learn about:The journey to CEO and recognizing Plan ZHow you raise money as a small businessFinding the need to create a startup Feedback, launching, and the process to get it rightGrowth with sharing and celebration Trust is always key for customer support and serviceVisualization to change the status quo Episode References/Links:WebsiteInstagramGuest Bio:HELAINE KNAPPFounder & CEO of CITYROWAfter spending years climbing the corporate ladder, Helaine Knapp left the world of publishing for tech start-up life. Group fitness was her outlet while working hard and taking on the hustle and bustle of New York City. Months of spin and boot camp classes left her with a lower back injury, however, and she began searching for a workout that was low impact, but super effective. After a friend suggested rowing, Helaine initially rejected it as something “my dad did in college,” but following a few workouts on a sexy machine, pairing it with total body sculpting moves off the machine, changed her mind and the concept for CITYROW was born. With a mission of delivering a smart, fun, effective workout to all fitness levels, under Knapp's leadership, CITYROW has grown from one studio in New York City to a national omnichannel fitness brand a top-ranked on-demand global program featuring at-home rowers and a fast-growing digital subscription business alongside 12 open studios and 65 franchises sold nationwide! Knapp has yet to row on the water and has been featured as a business leader and a wellness expert on TODAY, Women's Health, ABC, Harper's Bazaar, Shape, Well + Good, Vogue, Yahoo! Finance and PEOPLE, among many others.  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hey, Be It listener. So I believe so much in paying attention to what strikes your fancy?What gets your attention? What gets your mind thinking? And you know, it's hard for our minds to wander in our our busy lives, like, you know, we have so much to do. And we're always and thank you for listening this podcast on your walk or on your drive. But you know, sometimes we don't even, we don't have a lot of time just to think. And so I was driving with Brad cross country and he was asleep and I was listening to a podcast. And today's guest was on that podcast, and I was obsessed with her. Like, I was like, "Oh, my God, this woman is amazing." Like she is, she is not letting the things that I hear all the time, stop her. So her name is Helaine Knapp. She is the Founder of CITYROW. And she was not a fitness instructor when she started a fitness company. She was also not certified in rowing, which started this fitness company. She was a consumer who was solving her own problem. And I say that because some of you are, are busy working on something trying to make something work. And it's, and it and it might actually not be the thing, the thing might be the other problem that you have that you have to solve. And we get a little hung up sometimes on, I've spent so much time on this thing. I've got to do this thing. This is where, this is where I got my degree in. This is where my resume says I should be. And what if you just followed the thought process of the problem that you have that you've been trying to solve for yourself? Well, I can tell you a little bit because actually Helaine's gonna tell you in this interview, you're gonna hear how she became the Founder of CITYROW, which is not a one boutique shop in New York. It is happening all over the country, in the States, and they have an awesome at Home app. And she's freaking phenomenal and super inspiring. And her Be It action items are useful, unique, probably free, unless you unless you need to go hire someone to discover yourself, but I can't wait for you to hear her voice and get inspired by her and her honesty and what she's doing. And she's eight years in on this business. And it's not easy. It's not easy, but don't stop yourself before you get started. All right, so here she is Helaine Knapp.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.All right, Be It listeners, I have a very special woman for you, I might say special a lot. But this one, I actually listened to her another podcast while driving through Florida, which is a really long drive. It didn't think it would be that long. But I listened and I was like, immediately DM-ing like going so I'm going past all the things to get a hold of her because I just had to have her on to talk to you about who she is and what she rocks at. So Helaine Knapp, thank you for being here. And taking time to tell everyone what you're doing. So if you don't mind, can you share with them who you are and why you're amazing.Helaine Knapp 3:36  Thank you what an intro. I'm very happy to be here and getting to know you and the entire audience. Yeah, so quick and dirty Helaine Knapp, Founder and CEO of a company called CITYROW. We are rowing based fitness, but really just smart fitness for the average consumer who's trying to try to get it all in, cardio, strength, mobility, flexibility, stretch, you get it. How can we get that for you in 20 minutes? And so I ended up starting a rowing company that I'm excited to tell you a little bit more about.Lesley Logan 4:04  Yeah, so first of all, I love that because my my my Pilates classes online are 30 minutes. And I'm like finishing is optional everyone, like you can just press play. And if you stop before it's over, you still got your full body workout in the day. So I love that you're like how do we do all of that in 20 minutes, because it is so hard to get have time to do all the things. So a way to solve the problem was a problem that you had or ...Helaine Knapp 4:26  Yeah, it was definitely a problem that I had. So I built my career and in the tech world in New York City and so that meant that I was running around like a lunatic, you know, selling, you know, talking to clients. I was, you know, taking in person meetings, I was hustling emails, I was trying to build my network and my career also have time for friends and a social life. And I loved working out. Something I fell in love with after college I was actually much of a bit of a chubbier kid growing up and going out school in the Midwest and did not helped me on my fitness journey. And so it was after college that I just fell in love with leading a healthy lifestyle and lost some of the college weight. And when I started working a lot more and seeing a lot more opportunity to, you know, make a larger career, get some commissioned sales. All of a sudden it was harder for me to leave my desk at the end of the day. And so I became a boutique fitness fanatic. As much as I could afford it. I was taking classes all over New York City, I had a personal trainer, like once or twice a month whenever I could afford it. And it was really kind of through, you know, I unfortunately I got an injury. Taking all these fitness classes and found myself with a really bad lower back injury that forced me to be sidelined.Oh, I feel, I feel like that is kind of the thing like the injury to sidelines all of us, even those of us who are not famous Olympic athletes, like you're your own athlete, and when you get sidelined and the things that you did to make you feel good, get you you have time to think and wonder a little bit. (Lesley laughs)Yeah, I mean, well, we're not all Olympic athletes, yet ...Lesley Logan 5:57  Yet. We're gonna be on that rowing team. (Lesley laughs)Helaine Knapp 6:03  ... I think that I we'd be better off with a couple other sports but we can talk about that offline. Yeah, I was, I would sidelined and it was so frustrating because in my mind, I was doing everything right. I I pride myself on being a conscientious human in the world. You know, constantly trying to do my best and trying to do what's right and ended up with wearing a back brace like full on Romy and Michele high school reunion style. (Lesley: Well ...) And yeah, yeah ... Yeah, three herniated discs at 24, which really pissed me off, because I really thought that I was doing everything right. And working out like so much and taking these classes. But you know, the sidelining really forced me to look at what I was doing. And very quickly realized that not all movement was created equal. I don't need to tell you that. (Lesley: Yeah) But yeah, it was just like, it was an eye opening, right. I think you have to kind of go along your fitness maturity to a certain point, when you realize that there's not all movement is created equal. (Lesley: Yeah) This will get there on nutrition faster, right? Not all calories are created equal. (Lesley: Right) But not all movement is created equal. And I think when you're first entering that fitness journey, all movement is good, ... walk, elliptical, do whatever it's going to take. And then when these are adding a lot of volume, and how do I work out 3 4 5 6 7 8 days a week, right? All of a sudden, you have to be a little bit more intentional with how you move your body. And it's really easy to start breaking it down. And so what I uncovered is I was in my 20s and 30s. And I had an injury, and all my friends were injured too. And I was like, "How are we gonna do this guys? (Lesley: Yeah) You only have one body, like we got to be a little bit smarter."Lesley Logan 7:51  Yeah, I think I mean, like, I love that you bring that up. Because also, when you're in your 20s, you do have this extra energy to do like, I used to take two hot yoga classes back to back. I can't even go out in the heat in Vegas anymore. I'm like, "Oh that's too much." When I hear people doing hot yoga here. I'm like, "Are you kidding?" So I used to do like two or three hours at the gym because I worked there and I injured myself running. And you know, running is kind of like, it's normal. It's like, it's not really that difficult to go out for a run. But of course, I broke my leg doing it, so (Lesley laughs) but I but I hear you like you there's there's there's an element of needing balance and the proper amount of different types of movement. And then also, like, if you don't have the core foundation to do all the things you're doing and you're young, and you're able to do them, you can start to develop things that like three herniated disc girl at 24. That's way too young.Helaine Knapp 8:42  It was it was way too young. And I think it was just, it was so jarring for me because fitness had become a big part of my life. And I was taking all these spin classes and I loved it. I loved it. I loved that heat. I love the energy and then when when the music came on, I think all the discs just flew out of my back because I started aggressively dancing on the bike. And I didn't have the strongest, the strongest core in the world and I was forgoing form, to be able to make sure that I hit every tap back perfectly and combination many other things too. I happen to be really tall, I'm super hyper flexible. You know, everyone's body is different, but it really kind of was eye opening to me and in the notion of like, is there a way that I can get the cardio and the strength training I'm looking for. I always loved personal training, couldn't always afford it that much time but like, loved and understood the power of lifting a weight. (Lesley: Yeah) Not just for weight loss purposes as a former chubby kid that's always goal of mine, but also for his overall health and longevity. Realize how quickly how important it was but for women, especially ...Lesley Logan 9:47  Women, especially. Yes, ladies, if you're listening and you're not doing some weight strengthening like body body weight resistance is great, but you got to add, you got to add some heavy weights in there. I promise you it's going to make like when I heard it makes menopause easier as like, throw me the weights. Where are they? Hold on, I've heard this as hell, where's the weight? (Lesley laughs) (Helaine: Yeah) Let's start now.Helaine Knapp 10:07  I think we're being realistic in that we're not saying go lift 50 pounds, we're saying like use five, use eight, get yourself up to 10 to 12 to 15 (Lesley: Yeah) over body, upper body, find the right, you know, coach through you with that. And that's a huge part of what we do is also introduce people to proper strength training movements that are part of a hit class. And so I wanted the cardio, obviously, who doesn't love cardio. (Lesley: Yeah) Right? Strength training. And then I wanted three other things that I found were traditionally being being really compromised in a lot of these high intensity classes in New York City. I wanted to have a positive impact on my mobility. (Lesley: Yeah) I wanted to have a positive impact on my flexibility in my stretching. And so to me, I went in with this really fucking high bar ...Lesley Logan 10:51  You're like, "I need there has to have all these things." So (Helaine: Yeah) so were you looking, were you like making a list to go look and find that it existed? Or were you thinking, "I'm going to create this is where ..."Helaine Knapp 11:02  So it started by me saying, you know, my doctor was like, "You need a low impact workout." And I quickly learned what how important that was. And I was like, man, everyone needs a low impact workout. We just don't know it. And then I was looking for a low impact workout that was also high intensity. And it was actually, it was right there that I got stopped that there was really nothing out there. That was both high intensity, meaning torching calories, really fun, great music, but that was also low impact on my body and my joints that did not exist. (Lesley: Yeah) And then I obviously wanted to layer on a couple other things. So I'm a bit of an overachiever. And so that was ...Lesley Logan 11:39  I see you. I'm over here. Welcome to the overachiever club. (Lesley laughs) We've been ... recovering here, we're trying to be in recovery.Helaine Knapp 11:45  Yeah, I'm close, Lesley, you might be a couple couple steps ahead of me. But I really it was really that moment where I was like, "Man, there's, there's gotta be some better way." I wonder if I can try and figure it out. Constant problem solver my whole life. And also, I was personally really sidelined. (Lesley: Yeah) I am a person that needs a high intensity workout. It's mental for me as much as it is physical, and walking and doing, you know, light movements on a mat. Like were fantastic and really changed my body and my core. But my mentally like I needed something else. Like (Lesley: Yeah, I understand ...) ... that you're on key. And so I was like, really quickly, I learned that rowing was this high intensity, low impact, not to mention total body thing ...Lesley Logan 12:32  Yeah. And I love this rower coz like, first of all, it's I feel like I own, I feel like only recently and maybe when that maybe two who started it that like people actually got got into the rowing machine, because it's so much fun.Helaine Knapp 12:46  Well, that's generous, Lesely. I don't think it's very fun. If I'm being honest with you ... (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 12:51   I've also never done a 20 minute version of it. I'm like, two minutes, 10 calories, boom.Helaine Knapp 12:58  I think that that's really what I saw in it. It wasn't that I loved rowing. I've never rowed a day my whole life. It's that I saw a vision for it to be this kind of anchor within this holistic workout that was gonna give me cardio and strength training and mobility and flexibility all in one. And it could anchor around the rower because it's a power exercise. And so (Lesley: Yeah) CITYROW is actually it's intervals, you're never spending more than a couple of minutes on the rower, we were just using it to very quickly get your heart rate up. And to keep it up throughout all of your strength training and mobility and Pilates style work on the mat (Lesley: Cool) that you're sweating nonstop. And it's very dynamic. So it's that heart pumping cardio that's mixed in with everything else that makes it our secret sauce.Lesley Logan 13:43  Yeah, so that's super fun. So remind me how long ago, so you were injured at 24? How long ago did you come with this idea? How long did it take you to get started?Helaine Knapp 13:53  So I the idea for CITYROW in 2013. And I launched my first studio in January 2014. I was a child.Lesley Logan 14:00  Yeah, this is amazing. So 2013 I feel like was a great year. Everything bad happened to me and all that was so good. So so I love this year. Like just think of all the things that have been born in 2013. So that's really fast. Now, because people always have to know I just went you were not a group, you're not a fitness instructor. You were just a fitness person. You just loved fitness. And you and so you didn't own a fitness studio. You've never owned a fitness studio. So how did you, how did you start something you've never done? (Lesley laughs)Helaine Knapp 14:35  Well, I really, really didn't know what the hell to do. But I was very, very confident in personally not having something out there for me. (Lesley: Yeah) And so it really started with this need in the market that I felt personally and that when I took a step back and looked at macro trends in the space, as well as talking to all my friends and realize that they were all injured in their 20s and 30s ... (Lesley: Yeah) still pushing themselves. I was very early on in the notion of like, you really can't beat your body down. (Lesley: Yeah) Like we take care of our one body. (Lesley: Yeah) And I just, I had that confrontation very early on in life. And so I felt the need. So personally, I saw it manifesting within others, even if they hadn't gotten there yet. And so I just started talking about it. And I started socializing the idea and the concept, I like, quickly did a little bit of math, which in retrospect, was so wrong, but I had enough of an idea of like, how it could work. (Lesley: Yeah) And then I took baby steps, I got a piece of advice very early on from a serial entrepreneur, friend of mine, he's like, "Just keep making one decision at a time that moves the company forward." And so it wasn't like people always asked me was there like,"One moment that you've jumped in," and they're actually, I can pinpoint one that was maybe like, you know, signing our first lease that was very jump in. But up until that point, I couldn't do a lot without having to like, risk it all. (Lesley: Yeah) And I did it all while I was working at another company. And so one step at a time, let's get a website up. Let's assess demand, let's get an article, let's be included in like a Well and Good or Roundup or something like let's just start doing it. Let's take conversations and learn. And then eventually, it was time to sign a lease. And that took me you know, months and months and months and months. But one small decision at a time is really how, how I did it.Lesley Logan 16:33  Thank you for sharing that because I do think that people go , "Okay, now I have to sign the lease." And they don't do the work beforehand. And that work beforehand, really does help you cultivate what it's going to become. And also try out things like it's like dating, you gotta like before you get married and sign the lease, you got to like, date it around and see how people are going to put it out there and see people ask questions, what questions are they asking, you know, like, all of that stuff is really important. So I do, I do love it. And also that I agree, like, I look back at some how the companies we started happened. And there was very little like grand hurrah. (Lesley laughs) (Helaine: Yeah) I think there (Helaine: Yeah) was one grand hurrah when we moved to Vegas, we are like, "This is huge. This is a big leap." But but for us, it was just like doing one thing at a time. And I always had worked a different job and then made my side hustle the thing. And then what became the hustle that I could like, let go of something. So so you've been doing this since 2014. It's almost 10 years or eight years in, and you have one location, two locations. How it has grown out since then?Helaine Knapp 17:37  Oh, yeah. So we took a couple paths. I'll answer that in a couple of different ways. But in 2016 2017, you know, after we launched our first location opened a couple more, we were kind of sitting there punching far above our weight class in terms of brand and who we were in the market. And we're, we're rowing for the general fitness population. That's part of a more holistic workout. So we we happen to hook on the rowing train, but really, we're just a smart fitness (Lesley: Yeah) solution. And our mission has always been how can we go and be available to as many people as humanly possible. We're very, very female focused. So as mentioned, we're three women that started the business, we only bring on female ambassadors and celebrities. (Lesley: Love this) But we're also built for the female body, which is high, wildly different than the male body. (Lesley: Yeah) I think, I think I'm the only female founder in this connected fitness world, which is how we built this, which is insane. But hey, women's bodies, like we need some different stuff. So, we ...Lesley Logan 18:32  Yeah, I agree. I don't and it's like, I was listening to a podcast where a guy was telling women about different things. And I'm like, "Why are we taking advice from a dude?" No offense, he's very smart. But like, "Ladies, we need to know about how to train for our bodies, and we need to be the experts on it, not someone else."Helaine Knapp 18:50  It's, it's crazy. And listen, like I think as as a, as a female founder, entrepreneur, someone who's raised a lot of money. We're constantly navigating in a world that wasn't built for us. But we are making small changes every day, to try and make the world work for us or to try and create a new world. That's how I like to think about it. (Lesley: I love that. Yeah) So we stepped back in 2017. I was like, "Where do I want to grow the business?" There's a lot of cool things happening, I could raise a lot of money and open more corporate locations, I could do a franchise model. Also, this digital thing is really interesting to me. And so when I looked at what I wanted to do with the business, I knew I wanted to grow our retail footprint and open more locations. The plan here was never to do just a couple. I come from the tech startup world. So to me, I was like, we're on the fucking train. And we're gonna go, and I really, really liked what I saw in the early days of digital fitness. And that meant that really numbers of the Peloton and some cool things that I was seeing there. And you also have to take a step back and say, "What are we uniquely positioned to win at? Where do we have an unfair advantage?" And I knew that for us that was going to be technology because my co founder and I met at a tech company. I love building technology. I also love monthly and annual recurring revenue. Not to mention, I knew that our modality of this growing hit class with strength training work was going to translate incredibly well into the ad home setting where the hypothesis was that we're going to have a much shorter attention span. (Lesley: Yeah) And we can jam our Fab Five into a 20 minute workout. This is going to be perfect for the home consumer because nobody wants to go and do an hour long workout at home, at least I don't and I am the consumer. I've never taught a class. I'm just the consumer.Lesley Logan 20:39  But see I, you, I, you keep saying this. And I think it's really important for people to listen to this part, you're solving your problem, like everything you've done is solving your problem. And that is, you know, that is really the key. I think people think they're trying to solve a problem for like, that's what they see out like maybe think about or what they perceive. But it's like, actually, if you to solve your own problem, if you can create that thing. You can there's people out there, you're not the only one. So I think it's really cool and I agree. I do one yoga class a week online at home, and it is live, which is the only reason I could show up because I'm like, "This is an hour. (Lesley laughs) I, hold on, why are we savasana early? When is when is that happening? (Lesley laughs)Helaine Knapp 21:23  I'm with you, we're coming from the same plot. And like, to your point, we are not all that special, right? There's a lot of people just like us that have similar feelings and needs and voids in their life. So that's very much how I built the business. And so while I saw this early trend in digital, and I knew we wanted to get there early, and we did, we launched our first rower. But our secret sauce is really our content in our app. And so at our core, we're a content creator. And so we have, we have on demand and live classes. (Lesley: Cool) Now we have 15 different class types circling around the rower because it's still a vehicle for this perfect tech class, but also complimentary workouts, whether it's yoga, Pilates, Bootcamp, more all rowing classes, because once you get into it, you kind of want to see what you can do on that thing. And it's really really really good hard ...Lesley Logan 22:12  I love putting my hands on the floor feet on the on the seat and just like I there's something about that. I feel like it's gonna help me do a handstand someday, like a gymnast, I'm just going to pop up into it. I know, it's probably not ...Helaine Knapp 22:21  You definitely could. I'm not sure that's how the rubber should be used Lesley. But we can talk about that offline. (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 22:26  Good point. Good point. Good point. So ... (Helaine: Im' so excited ...) So that's, so that's really cool. So you did that in 2017. So you're like, well ahead of like, people actually starting to use, you know, at home equipment as a thing like before the pandemic that is what I mean.Helaine Knapp 22:42  Yep, so we were very much ahead of the curve. And so we had our first row, we're in market with our iOS and Android app going into the pandemic. We also though in 2017, knew that we wanted to expand our physical studio footprint, and so partnered with a franchise development company, and we sold about 65 units across the country very quickly. And we had about eight or nine of those open, just open heading into COVID and so (Lesley: Wow) truly getting on this omni channel meet the customer where they are ethos into who we are. And so obviously, past two years have been super up and down in both areas of the business but the whole category is continuing to grow and that's why our team, our investors are all pretty bullish on is that studios are coming back in a meaningful way and people are hungry huge for variances, in a good way.Lesley Logan 23:33  Yeah, it's ... it's insane. Sorry to cut you off. But like, because I coach so many instructors, the... obviously with the pandemic so many teachers went online, and now that things are opening up and like, I promise you, it is so much easier to build a brick and mortar right now. Because people are really, the people who loved in person fitness are hungry for it and they're showing up and they're and because they saw what happened to to in two years of not being able to do it they're like not missing. It is really crazy and insane. So I'm, so have you been able to open up new ones since the pandemic or is it just the ones that you had signed on before? How's that going?Helaine Knapp 24:13  Combination so, you know, some of them didn't make it through and really hard and challenging and I definitely shed a couple tears as these are people that I was really excited to build a business with. We also opened a couple, so for instance our Richmond Virginia franchisee opened her second location, Plainview opened during, Del Mar, California opened during the pandemic. And we're going to continue to open a lot more stores over the coming years. And for us right now it's how do we, how do we continue to build back up those studios in that community and in a meaningful way, and then figure out where we want to go next. All the while really integrating our digital community with that of be in person because a digital community is fantastic. But the second that you can go and touch and feel something in the flesh, you're gonna have a much deeper and real connection to that. (Lesley: Yeah) And I, I'm, I'm the Meta Verse is here ... read for whoever's excited about that as am I in some ways, but there's, there's nothing that's ever going to replicate. Right? Connected at Home Fitness was built because people need to figure out how to get the days 4 or 5 6 7 8 (Lesley: Yeah) into their week, or they physically could not get to the studio. (Lesley: Yeah) Right? But for most of the average consumer, they are not going to motivate themselves and push themselves as hard at home as they will in a room full of other people. Now, different psyches do better, I actually think that men probably do a lot better at home, just the way that their brains work than women. We love being around other people, right? We're motivated by other people. (Lesley: Yeah) And we're a little bit competitive. (Lesley: Yeah) Like, I'm the fucking owner of this company, I have a rower sitting right next to me, and I have never hit a low split time that I could possibly get in the studio. (Lesley laughs) ... we're human in the studio ...Lesley Logan 26:01  I hear you on that. Because, well, you know, I bought weights during the pandemic. And I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna work myself out. I got some programs. I'm doing some online stuff." And I went like, "Oh, the dogs need breakfast. Oh, this," you know, like, all of are so many distractions. So I do much better. It with a, like, they're like I'm showing up at a time for something, even if it's at home, but in person is still one of my favorite ways to work out with group classes. It's just wait, it feels like a group class, because that's what it is. So I have, so your I mean, like, it's crazy, you're 24 are like, "Okay, I'm gonna start this thing. It's amazing." And I love the confidence that a young 20 something has, so I can understand how you could be the CEO of a company, or something you've never done before. But now with there's so many experiences, you've had to work this business through that no one had to, no one had to do a pandemic before. So that's something different. And then also to go from like, one location to like, all these extra locations, all these new locations and an app. How, what is it, how do you like, talk to your, talk to yourself, and like becoming this next thing, running a company of something that you haven't done yet? Do you know what I mean?Helaine Knapp 26:31  So really started in like, before I even opened the first location, or even had the idea. And it all comes back to self awareness, and knowing what you are good at, but more importantly, knowing what you're not good at. And if there's like one superpower that I have that, you know, I was finally starting to realize in my mid 20s, that I'm a really, really, really good problem solver and navigator. And layer that in with an ability to network and find the right person to ask for help. That I just was ready to bet on myself, because I did not know what was going to be around the corner. But I knew that I could probably figure it out. Right. And that came from personal experience. It came from feedback that I got, you know, positive feedback from bosses and mentors throughout the years. And so I was ready to better myself and jump in. Right? You never know how cold the water is going to be or what's going to be lurking below. But I knew that I was going to figure out how to navigate it. And so I kind of always come back to that notion. And now that I've been doing this for eight years, man have I navigated through some crap. And stuff that like is just mind blowing, like all of our credit cards were shut off. We've run out of money many times, like every problem you can possibly imagine from legal to personnel, we've been through it. And so now it's a combination of that early confidence and betting on myself to be able to navigate it. But two, I yeah, I pull rabbits out of the hat. I've done it, I figured it out. Like this is just one more. This is just one more, we have a bigger team and there's more people behind us. And so it's constantly leaning on that. But the one piece of advice I would say would be not to pretend to be who you're not. And to be very, very aware of where your strengths are and make sure that that matches to whatever the initiatives are that you want to embark on. And if you're not then just be real about that. This is not for everyone.Lesley Logan 29:09  Oh, that is so good. That is I love that so much. I it's it's something I think a lot of us don't realize that we can bet on ourselves. I think, do you know what I mean? Like I think it's not an option people actually realize is probably the best bet you can make because another guest on who is like you've survived every bad thing that's ever happened to you if you're listening to this, like you didn't die. (Helaine: Ah) You have access to the internet and you're hearing a podcast like you've survived all of it. And so, so I really thank you for, thank you for saying that because I think anyone who already bet on themselves just being reminded that of that, too is like that is a that is a magic tool. And you're right we all have strengths and some of our strengths are better suited for different roles in our own business you know. Um, I last August, oh, no. Yeah. No, oh my gosh, it's been almost two years. In August of 2020, I hired a coach. She's amazing strategist, she's actually out in your area. And she, she does strategy work for like trillion dollar companies and somehow, like through the network of life, like she loved us. And she's like, "Yeah, let's do a session." And I was like, "Okay, great. I'm not a trillion dollar company yet, but I appreciate you. We're gonna work with you." (Helaine: Yeah) And she this whole thing. And she's like, "I don't know why you're the CEO because you're, you're not." (Lesley laughs) And I said, "I am not. (Helaine: Oh) I'm not the CEO of my company. I am the Visionary Officer of my company." Like, I know where we're going. And I know, I believe I can get us there. I like when you say rabbits, that I'm an ideas machine, problem comes up. I'm like, we just need to like, what out, what do we get what's possible right now. And so my husband became the CEO, because he's a natural at it. He's so good at it. And when you when we switch those roles, and then I hired people around me, who actually had strengths that were my weaknesses, it's, you're unstoppable. And so you then you can just live in your strengths. And it's easier to bet on yourself everyday. Because you're not constantly living in the parts of you that are like, not not good at that. So we're gonna make yourself feel not good.Helaine Knapp 31:16  Yeah, and I think so many of us want to be someone that we're not, or at least we start that way, right, as, as young young women trying to be someone else. But I think the most important thing you can do for yourself and your happiness and your career is to be like, "What am I really good at?" And I learned a great example of this from one of my first bosses when I was working at Conde Nast W magazine, and I was a, you know, $24,000 a year sales assistant. (Lesley: Somebody living in New York) ... and not not well, like, it was like grad school in some ways. But I remember working for this badass badass sales woman. And I remember saying to her, like, "Kim, like, don't you want to be the associate publisher? Like, don't you want to be the publisher and run everything?" And she's like, "No, I am really good at this. I make a great living. And I wouldn't be a good manager." And it was really, really, really eye opening, because I had been going on this notion that you got to keep climbing. But I've seen that play over many times in my career. And people are happier when they're in the right seat. And not everyone's happy, and they don't see it all the time. But make sure you're putting yourself in the right seat.Lesley Logan 32:29  So beautiful. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna listen to that part over and over. Alright, Helaine, where do people find you, row with you, you got CITYROW's sounds like all over and coming up all over. So how can they get more information?Helaine Knapp 32:42  I'm a big Instagram fan. So highly recommend just find us on Instagram, at @cityrow c i ty r o w, get to our website, cityrow.com or go to cityrow.com or find me just Helaine Knapp on, I would say my two favorite social networks are Instagram, Instagram and LinkedIn.Lesley Logan 33:02  Oh, amazing. Good for you on the LinkedIn. I am that's a strength. That's a seat that I'm not in. (Lesley laughs) I have been (Helaine: ... where) out, it's there. And I'm like, "You know, if someone really wants to get a hold of me, I think that they'll go on my website." (Lesley laughs) So okay, you are a wealth of knowledge. Be It Till You See It action item, so bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted things, people can do to, you know, be it till you see it, be in the seat there that is meant for them.Helaine Knapp 33:33  I want to get to know yourself, right. And that means something different for everyone, whether you're going to journal and maybe bring in a mirror coach at some capacity, but get to know yourself a little bit more and surround yourself with people that are on that same journey or maybe a little bit further ahead of you that can help be a support system on that. And then when you're ready, just like jump in, jump in, but be aware that it's not rainbows and butterflies. And so if you can jump in and know that the water is really cold, but also have the confidence that you're going to be able to figure it out. Then you're ready but don't go in thinking this is going to be a breeze at any point you don't even know what's gonna happen yet ...Lesley Logan 34:17  Truer words have never been spoken like in my daily life. (Lesley laughs) (Helaine: Yeah) So oh my gosh, Helaine, I'm so grateful for this time. Thank you for letting me snag you and you're amazingness for our listeners. I hope to be in New York soon and track you down so we can actually meet in person but I just feel like yes, woven from the same cloth and lots more to do in this world. So thank you for being here. Everyone listening how you want to use these tips this information in your life, screenshot this, tag @cityrow, tag @helaineknapp and the @be_it_pod so we can see what your takeaways are. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It a podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Flying Media'.Brad Crowell 35:30  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 35:41  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell 35:45  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 35:54  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 36:06  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

The second live podcast with about two live audience members and many other ghosts with Claire Sullivan (Toast Rat MICF 2021), Jon Walpole (Uh, Yeah So.... MICF 2022) and to celebrate Dead Pet Day we have pet physic Indigo Jones (Jackson Eather) to help our guests and others get in touch with beloved pets that have passed on. 

Summiting Mount Washington MARCH 5TH 202224 hours aftermath “Neptune”A boy and a horse are in the woodsAnd the boy starts to panic and says to the horse..“I can't see a way through”The wise horse calmly asks…“Can you see your next step?”The boy shouts“Yeah”So the horse responds….“Then just take that”I  just kept looking at my feet and not toward the seemingly impossible journey ahead.The mind wonders for hours with flooded emotions, the body aches with substantial pain and exhaustion and the only thing that holds you together is your soul.The spirit of yourself.   At one point out of nowhere, Kyle told me God is with us…

A conversation that is zippy, energetic, and fancy… Or maybe it was exuberant, productive, and joyful? Listen to LL and Brad to find out how you shift your paradigm to design positive experiences for yourself and have some fun choosing your daily adjectives. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Future pilates tours/retreat plans Giving yourself permission to design the experience you enjoyIntentionally sculpting your routinesShifting your paradigmChoosing your three adjectives for your day Episode References/Links:The G+A CourseFree WebinarOnline Pilates Classes Retreats OPC FlashcardsOPC Flashcards are on AmazonOPC Flashcards are on our site  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.  ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Social MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:01  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life, Brad and I are going to dig into the transformative convo I have with Mallory Gott in our last episode. (Brad: Yeah, we are.) If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now. Go back and listen to that one and then come back and join us. I mean, you know after you, if you ... if you did listen to Mallory, you get to do things based on how you feel. So, whatever you're feeling say, you get to create that, that journey. So ... (Brad: That's true.) I freakin' love her. I'm so, so glad that we get to know her and have mutual friends and we even get to spend the holidays with her briefly. I got to see a clip of Die Hard which made me go, "Maybe I should watch Die Hard." (Brad laughs) So anyways, um, uh, y'all, I had a birthday.Brad Crowell 1:28  Yeah, happy birthday!Lesley Logan 1:30  Mm-hmm. And usually I do a big, choose your own adventure birthday party, but since the pandemic, I pretty much stopped doing that. In fact, this year, I told Brad, he "I want to have a birthday. I want to get overdressed. You have to plan it." So (Brad laughs) anyways, he did and since we record this early, I did have a birthday. I have not experienced it yet. So full disclosure, I don't what we did.Brad Crowell 1:51  And "Brad planned it" in the future past tense that (Lesley: Yeah) (Lesley laughs) this has been recorded. (Lesley: But ...) Brad's swears, Brad planned it.Lesley Logan 1:58  Yeah ... I this is like like, just subliminal, like just "Brad's planning it. Brad, Brad's planning. Brad's planned it." (Brad and Lesley laughs) (Brad: We're almost done) Talk about Be It Till You See It, I'm just making birthday happen without me planning it. And also super fun. The scheduling tool that we partnered with Pocket Suite is officially out. So the Profitable Pilates edition is out.Brad Crowell 2:19  So fired up. Yes, (Lesley: Oh my God) this is amazing. (Lesley: this is amazing) If you are a business owner of any kind that has to deal with clients, and you have to send invoices or schedule, you know, dog walks, it doesn't matter, you can use this tool to do it. Obviously, we've geared it towards Pilates people because that's who we that's, that's mostly our (Lesley: ... Yeah) history here. But it's it's really a flexible tool and is ... it is amazing.Lesley Logan 2:48  All of my coaching advice on there can be, can be geared towards any service based business. So enjoy, super fun. And we we I my favorite webinar to teach is on scheduling, like, how to schedule your life and have ... it's not air quotes, balanced, hard word for me because, you know, there are different seasons to your business, if it for honest, but a lot of people like to know how I get things done. So, I scheduled or schedule, I created a workshop free webinar on how to schedule your life with all your priorities in it. And it also talks about this amazing scheduling tool, and that webinar is free. And you can watch the replay.Brad Crowell 3:25  Yeah, the replay will be available for you. You can just go to profitablepilates.com/... Let's make one up here, profitablepilates.com/ (Lesley: gemstones) Yeah, gemstones it is. (Lesley: Yeah) So that's weird. If you don't know what that's referring to, you're gonna have to watch the replay.Lesley Logan 3:50  Clearly haven't watched the webinar. (Brad laughs) So, I'm all about, I'm all about gemstones.Brad Crowell 3:54  That link will be in the show notes. (Lesley: Yeah) And the ...Lesley Logan 3:59  But it is a free, it's a free webinar that I, I will teach you these things and people love that. It's like a dream schedule webinar. And then at the end, we go over the free tool, so you can get both.Brad Crowell 4:10  Yeah, so if you've ever heard me jokingly refer to a Swiss cheese schedule. That that this webinar will help you resolve clients that are booking at nine in the morning or nine at night. Or you know, "Oh the only time I could take them is 6pm on a Sunday when it's my day off," you know, so you'll you this is a ...Lesley Logan 4:34  For my vegans listening a Swiss cheese schedule is a block with holes in it. (Brad laughs) So block of time and there is a hole in it.Brad Crowell 4:41  Imagine your calendar is the (Lesley: Yeah) Swiss, the Swiss cheese ...Lesley Logan 4:44  Yeah, yeah. And that's that's really annoying because like I had a Swiss cheese kind of morning this morning and I was like not enough time to start anything. (Brad: Right) It wasn't enough time to do anything and I wasn't hungry yet. So like this ... "What am I doing?" (Brad laughs) I'm gonna go look at the cactus. (Brad: why is there cheese?) Anyways, so profitablepilates/gemstones. You heard that here. Okay, so last friggin' thing I'm excited about, (Brad: Coming up) you're hearing about a lot because I'm I'm gonna shout from the rooftops until this happens and here's why. Too many people either are afraid to start Pilates because it's weird and they think it's weird and they're new. They don't want to do it wrong, or you've been doing Pilates but you just don't get it. And I'm on a mission "More bodies doing Pilates." So the full body in 15 is a week long program, where I'm going to teach you how to do a full body Pilates workout in 15 minutes. You can pair it with any of your other workouts you already do and enjoy or go to onlinepilatesclasses.com/fullbodyin15.Brad Crowell 4:44  Yeah, and that is kicking off on the 20th of Feb. (Lesley: Yes. Oh my gosh) So, join us. There's gonna be some live, some replays all the things but yeah (Lesley: Yeah) coming up.Lesley Logan 5:47  Okay, what is the audience question love?Brad Crowell 5:49  Okay, great question. Obviously, something that we love, and we're very passionate about. Question was when are we going back on tour? (Lesley: I know. Um ...) That is a good question. (Lesley: Great question. So that's ...) To which we we know we have at least one answer, (Lesley: Do you remember ...) which would be ...Lesley Logan 6:07  on sitcoms when they put the TO BE CONTINUED at the bottom. ( Lesley and Brad: da da da da) Here's what I do know. We are ... (Brad: To be continued) we are going to be heading out on an awesome little adventure in the summertime to go when I'm teaching at Momentum Fest. (Brad: Yeah, yeah) So we will be heading up at least Colorado. And we have not decided if we're adding on to that because June is actually a very busy month. (Brad: Yeah. It's kind of, we got a bunch of things going on.) It's like three trips in four, I don't even understand. So, I don't know if we'll be able to add anything to that. So just definitely come to Momentum Fest. We will for sure do one in the winter, as far as the cities that we're going to do. You know, shoot your city out. I know for sure we're gonna go to Rhode Island because we promised them that last year, so we ...Brad Crowell 6:51  I'm I'm trying to get us back to Fort Wayne, Indiana during the summer. (Lesley: What? Oh. Oh, yeah, yeah) So that we, we can do a sweet water appearance as (Lesley: He's trying really hard) that would put us, that would put us coincidentally near Chicago, potentially. So ...Lesley Logan 7:10  Well, I rather do Chicago in the summer than in the winter. Um, so no offense my Chicagoans. If that's the word. It's so freakin' cold. (Brad: I think it's a word) It's just too many cold cities on the winter tour. I really like the Southern part of our tour because it's hot, hot, hot. So (Lesley laughs) But anyways, for sure winter, we do want here's in the dream world, we would do a West Coast tour, and then some sort of Summer Tour somewhere. And to get the Upper Midwest, we've been promising them (Brad: Maybe even up into Canada.) Yeah and to Canada, and then the the winter tour. However, I'm really holding out for retreat. And so I ... (Brad: Oh we are), I have a hard time planning a tour until I can get my retreats back up. So just stay tuned. And you know, we can make the winter tour as long as we need. So just throw us your city out there.Brad Crowell 7:59  In fact, fingers crossed that I can get back to Cambodia here in March into April to prep the retreat space (Lesley: Mm-hmm) because if all does go well, we hope to have a retreat in the fall (Lesley: the fall) into potentially into the winner of this year. (Lesley: Yeah. So ...) So if you have if you've ever thought about Cambodia, you can go to onlinepilatesclasses.com/retreats. Almost positive that's the link ...(Lesley: You just go to onlinepilatesclasses.com) We'll put the link to get on the waitlist (Lesley: and you can see ...) or retreats in the show notes.Lesley Logan 8:34  All the things that are Pilates. You can't see anything that's business you got to go to profitablepilates.com for that. But anyways, I love this question. Thank you for asking it. You know, there's only so many days in the year and I'm we are really trying to make sure that we hold space for a potential retreat before we put anything on the books because I really am after two years of all this. I don't want to cancel anything anymore. So (Brad: Yeah, I'm over ...) I'm over the emails for that and so far 2022 has been canceled free. I'm trying to keep it that way. (Lesley laughs) (Brad: Yeah) Okay. Let's talk about Mal.Brad Crowell 9:06  Yeah. Okay, so exciting. Let's talk about Mallory Gott. Mallory Gott or Mal is the founder and creator, creative director of G+A, guiding clients through experimental design. She helps give people the opportunity to change the experiences they're having by redesigning based on feeling (Lesley: feeling) which I find really interesting. She is against cutting veggies. She's a lover of Mad Libs and is a fellow Vesta coffee roaster, lover because she's here in Vegas.Lesley Logan 9:47  Yeah, I know. We got to talk about that. If you didn't listen to the last episode. The end is really fun. (Brad: She gave Jared a shout out.) I know, Jared our neighbor. (Brad: Yeah) Yeah. We're actually drinking your coffee right now. (Brad: It's true.) (Brad laughs) Okay. So, in fact I ordered, posted mates yesterday, just so I could have the coffee beans delivered and it was glorious. And I was like, "Gosh, this is the life." Okay, so one of the things I love that she talked about was giving yourself permission to design an experience you enjoy. And I, I think, first of all, she literally embodies Being It Till You See It. This is how she trains every one of her clients like everything they do, they're being the thing that they want to see at the end of whatever the project is. And so that's actually what caught my eye towards her and in her be on this podcast. But we always talk about like, other people have said, "Give yourself permission. Give yourself permission." Thor talked about gotta give yourself permission slip, but this (Brad: Right) is like, I think we get caught up on like some... if something is hard work that it's going to be hard to do. And we like can put, we can put feelings toward something and then the experience and what you think about it, it changes you and how you want to show up there. So she's like, give yourself an experience to design a community you enjoy. So what would make the thing you're doing more enjoyable? And how can you do that for me in the morning, like, I like to put all of our what do you call them. Brad Crowell 11:11  You're really good at this by the way. Like I know that you you like intentionally sculpt your morning in a way that allows you to be set up for the day. (Lesley: Mm-hmm)Lesley Logan 11:23  (Brad: And I am ... ) Tell me more about myself. (Brad: Yeah) (Lesley laughs, no). Brad Crowell 11:27  I admire that because that's the opposite of how I do my day.Lesley Logan 11:31  I know, I walked in the house and I was like, "Oh, he hasn't event poured coffee yet. Oh, the dog hasn't had breakfast. But did he just get up? What's going on here?"Brad Crowell 11:37  No I'd been up for awhile (Lesley: Yeah) just my morning changed completely.Lesley Logan 11:41  So I do, I do wake up early in the morning because I want I'm very intentional about the how that and that is a permission that I gave myself. I gave myself more permission of space and have a morning that doesn't have stress, or I don't like to be rushed in the morning. It really makes me anxious. That feels like the day is going to be anxious. So I give myself permission to have lots of space, which does require some planning. But one of the other things I really have been doing is like getting the was like some sort of like luxury or I don't know what I was thinking. But I actually stayed at Allison's house. And she would like do her little oil infuser. Right? And every like it would turn off and she put oil on because I'm like, "Oh, this smells so good." And so I literally gave myself permission to every morning put all the oil infusers on the house and now we've got three that are just going and then I have another one on the other... And I love it because the whole house smells fresh. And it smells like the way I like it. Brad doesn't always like it but I like it.Brad Crowell 12:38  It's actually really pleasant for me and it's definitely it's a positive experience. I also am amazed that you find the time to set those up everyday. (Lesley: Okay, so here so ...) Like we make the time to make the coffee because we go, "I need the coffee."Lesley Logan 12:56  You all. You want (Brad: What?) to hear how this is working out for me. Okay, this is all uh, this is all routines and habits you have to get really good at but obviously celebrate you can take my habits webinar on that however, here's the deal. I have a routine we come in from the dog walk, run, whatever it is. And while the hot water is heating for the coffee, (Brad: hmm) I feed the boys some... sometimes there's one or the other ones bowl just sits there. Then after I do that they're not staring at me anymore. Then I have the water pitcher that I take to the three diffusers with the oils are already next, they are already set up, they're already there. Okay, and then the hot water is done and I make the coffee and then I do my next thing which is usually either Pilates or my peloton or something else that is like breath work. For me still because that coffee takes 10 to 15 minutes do its thing. So it's not ready yet so I just do something else for myself and then that's that's how I find the time, you can't watch water boil. They literally say that. Anyway. Brad Crowell 13:57  It's like paint drying. (Lesley: Yeah. So ...) Or it's like cactus is growing.Lesley Logan 14:02  But I also just like once I saw someone do it and sometimes it takes you seeing other people do it so do search for evidence for the permission you wish to give yourself but once I saw someone doing it looked like it didn't, it took her 13 seconds and I was like, "Oh I really want to have an enjoyable morning." Like the morning to me sets up the whole workday and well that way when I walk out the office and into the kitchen the house smells like it's been lived and cared for and I want the house to smell like that because I want the experience I have each day to be like I'm not doing this just to like slave at my desk all day. I'm doing this because I want to I get to live in this enjoyable place. So anyways permission granted ...Brad Crowell 14:38  Well this this rolls right into the thing that I really loved which was shifting your paradigm. Like how you see the things that you have to do. And because giv... so giving yourself permission first off, what you did was almost the BE IT action item. What (Lesley: Yeah) you're talking about here with the with the changing your environment, you're literally putting on a thing that is, it's like, it's like putting the the crystal with $100 bill in your drawer, (Lesley: Yeah) where where you open it and you go, "Oh, yeah, right, I'm going to focus on that today." Changing the, this the the olfactory, you know, scent of our kitchen, when I walk in in the morning, I'm like, "Oh, I like being in here." Right? And that is a very simple action item thing to do. But the permission part of it is, I think it's funny, because we get so sucked into the hard thing that we forget to be objective about it and go, "Hey, I know this is hard but does it have to feel hard?" (Lesley: Right) You know, maybe it doesn't have to feel this hard. And, and so that's the per... you have the you can give yourself the permission to look at it in a different way. But that's tied into the shifting of the paradigm, right? (Lesley: Mm-hmm) My mom used to say, "Have to do before want to do. Have to do before want to do." Right? I mean, it was like, I don't know, she must have said it to me a hundred ... a hundred times, a thousand times growing up, I think, I mean, I heard that for... forever for my entire elementary school, middle school, probably even in the high school. In high school, she kind of shifted to "You're putting too much in one day. You're putting too much in one day." (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 14:58  Brad put too much in one day? (Brad: No) Never (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 16:27  But you know that, you know, then then it was like, "Oh, I gotta do my chores around the house before I can go out to play" (Cries) and I would be angry about it. Right? And I think that there's this shifting of the paradigm and what Mallory was talking about, which I thought was really cool is, what if instead of it being like, "Damn it, I have to vacuum the stairs before I can go run around," got shifted to "I get to go run around after I vacuum the stairs." (Lesley: Right) And that I think is really shifting the paradigm. It's just again, like looking at it from the other side of the coin, as it were, you know, where you get to, to you still have to do thing. (Lesley: Yeah) But now instead of it being this really frustrating, angry experience. It's, you know, you're you're dwelling on the the thing that you actually want to be doing anyway. And this you just got to do this so that you can go do that. (Dog barks)Lesley Logan 17:29  Yeah, I um. I think, you know, I love that, that you grew up with that. I think there's also like, it's if you only hear people in your life complaining, it becomes a it does feel a little hard to be the positive polly around. (Brad: positive polly) (Brad laughs) One of our guests, he's coming up next week, he said, "You two must annoy the hell out of people. You're like so positive." (Brad laughs) And I was like, "Do you think we do?" And I do, I think people get because like we when bad things happen. People want to like roll on the ground with us. And we're like, "It's fine" cause what are we to do. Everything happens for us. It's fine." Also, because suddenly we didn't like feel the crap. We just felt it and we moved on. We're like, "How do we do this?" And so I do think it's that the if you can make your shift in the paradigm your superpower. You can change your course quickly. And like the life you want to have is going to happen so much faster. SoBrad Crowell 18:21  Yeah, well, it sounds like Mallory is the queen of shifting your paradigm. (Lesley: She's so good) So, super cool.Lesley Logan 18:27  Yeah, she's so chill. Okay, BE IT action items, (Brad: Yeah) break it down because she had these like three that work together.Brad Crowell 18:33  Yeah. So what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items that can you do, can we take away. Sorry, from your convo with Mallory Gott? Well, right out of the gate, she said, "Decide how you want to feel." (Lesley: Yeah) Right? And that I think is not the way that most people focus on the thing they have to (Lesley: no) do. Right? She says, "Choose how you want to feel around the thing that you want to do." Maybe you have to do but you can still you still control how you feel. And she said to pick three adjectives about your day like that you want to experience and then how can you apply those adjectives to the things that you have to do?Lesley Logan 19:23  Yeah, I think that is really, really fun. I'm just googling adjectives right now because (Brad laughs) if you're like me, and you're good memorizer to take the test and then you're like, (Brad: You have the descriptor.) ... Yes. So a word or phrase naming an attribute, added to or added to or grammatically related to a noun to modify or describe it. So you're the noun and and whatever you want to attribute to how you are in the moment of the thing. So that makes that makes me excited. You can actually Google like adjectives and like, there's like a bunch of sites that like 150 adjectives, you know, like you can pick them. So if you are like ...Brad Crowell 20:01  I also think that it doesn't necessarily need to be like, like exclusively an adjective you could pick joy. I don't think joy's an adjective. (Lesley: I know you but you could also though I want ...) I guess joyful would be an adjective.Lesley Logan 20:13  Yeah, yeah. So there's, there's I found a site that 150 of the most common. I'm going to be honest, this has a lot of like, depressing ones like mhmm, so I'll go through and highlight all the most positive or like look up positive adjectives. I should have done that. And then pick three and then do the thing that she just said, which is, it makes it makes me think of like Hilary Hartling, like ta-da list... (Brad: I was just thinking about that. Yeah) So like your take Mallory Gott's little situation here, little system, three adjectives. Take it to your to-do list, mad... inverted the Mad Libs rock on. Then you can get to go, "Tadaa." (Leslye laughs) So, I like this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a zippy afternoon with my meeting.Brad Crowell 20:55  A zippy? (Lesley: Mm-hmm) Okay. All right. Yeah, I'm gonna have a (Lesley: I'm gonna proudly do my calls.) Yeah, what are the three, what are your three adjectives for today?Lesley Logan 21:05  Mine? (Brad: Yeah) Oh, okay. So well, I thought I think proud is awesome. And that feels like, tall, energetic and fancy.Brad Crowell 21:15  Oh, fancy. (Lesley: Yeah) I love that. Okay, so (Lesley: Yeah. What are yours?) what are you, what do you have to do later today that you're going to make fancy?Lesley Logan 21:22  I have worked on those kind of like flashcards. (Brad laughs) So I'm going to proudly with, "What was my other one, proudly ..." (Brad: Ah um ...) Oh, my God, short term memory just blanked on me. Fancy and what? Here's what I'm just gonna new make one (Brad: Pick another one) Okay, when I do the fla... I'm going to do the flashcards ...Brad Crowell 21:44  You guys can hit rewind, and then tell (Lesley laughs) us what she said.Lesley Logan 21:47  What I say? I'm going to zealously.Brad Crowell 21:50  Zealously, you definitely didn't pick that one. But ...Lesley Logan 21:53  No, nope. Um, I am going to, I'm going to say, I'm proudly work on those cards, because I am so fucking proud of them. And I really do. Can't wait for you to have them. So I'm going to proudly work on those cards in and when I and then I'm going to sit there in a fancy outfit while I'm doing it.Brad Crowell 22:07  Yeah. And I think for me, I'm going to um... Let's see, exuberantlyLesley Logan 22:17  Oh, well, now you're just, now it's a spelling test. (Brad laughs)Brad Crowell 22:22  I'm going to exuberantly host a webinar, although there's nothing negative about hosting the webinar, because it's going to be with our friend Alex Street. It's gonna be so cool. (Lesley: I know) ... you gonna love it.Lesley Logan 22:35   He's a past guest, you can listen to him. He's just so cool.Brad Crowell 22:38  And then productively get done a bunch of boring contract work (Lesley: I think ...) that I have to do that I'm not excited about. So, (Lesley: I think you have to remove those those adjectives) Yeah, exactly. We're gonna swap that out to that's the productive and exuberant and the last one is going to be ... I do like joyful and that ...Lesley Logan 23:05  You could joyfully work on these contracts. You can whistle while you work.Brad Crowell 23:08  With exuberance. Yes and (Lesley: Yeah, yeah) productiveness. Lesley Logan 23:11  And then you're going to the gym with ... you're going to gleamly go to the gym (Brad: gleamly) I don't know. I'm just looking at another. (Brad and Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 23:20  Alright. Somebody take away the synonyms or (Lesley: Okay) adjectives.Lesley Logan 23:23  Yeah. So fun. Okay, well, anyways, if you do this system, please let us know. Screenshot this episode, tag Mallory Gott, tag Be It Till You See It pod.Brad Crowell 23:32  Oh wait, sorry. She has a course. (Lesley: Oh, gosh. Okay) Yeah. So well, you know, what's your big takeaway, Lesley? (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 23:41  I got really distracted with the adjectives and clearly we should be teaching you what she teaches. So because we're still working out the adjectives (Brad: Yeah) in our own lives. So take her course. She's got four parts to her course. We cover two in the interview. SoBrad Crowell 23:55  Yeah, the first pillar was, if you're designing an event or an experience for people, you will want to consider how you want them to feel. Right? During the experience, which is something that you and I do all the time with the retreats. (Lesley: Yeah) You know, like, we've got people coming here in March to Las (Lesley: Yeah) Vegas for a fitness business retreat, we're (Lesley: Yeah) really focused on like, "What are they going to experience? What are they going to feel?" Loved that.Lesley Logan 24:18  We filter everything through how we want them to feel.Brad Crowell 24:19  That's the first part of it. The second part of it is going to be and this is something that I don't think about this, I never think about this. (Lesley: clearly we need to take this part) Yeah. How do I want to feel while designing their retreat experience? (Lesley: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna take this course.) And that was like, "Hmm. I didn't I never considered me I was just making it work, making it happen." Right? (Lesley: Yeah) So that's, that's pretty amazing. And then during the interview, I don't actually recall the third and fourth part of her program, so I would absolutely (Lesley: also) recommend checking out her course.Lesley Logan 24:28  Two more reasons why you should check out her course. So we'll have that linked below (Brad: Yeah, in the show notes.) She's amazing. We have to have her back. I don't know. I gotta have her do a presentation. This is so freakin' great. I'm Lesley Logan.Brad Crowell 25:03  And I'm Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 25:04  Thank you for joining us today. We're so grateful for you. Seriously so grateful. Otherwise we just be doing this for the ethers. And so thank you for listening. Thank you for downloading. Thank you for sharing. Screenshot this, tag Mallory, tag @be_it_pod with how you're using her BE IT action items and send us that we get a DM and we can like shout you out, we can celebrate you. It's super, super fun, and we'll catch you on the next episode.Brad Crowell 25:25  Until next time.Lesley Logan 25:26  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it, help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 26:01  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 26:12  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell 26:16  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 26:25  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 26:37  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Happy New year from the BE IT pod team! As you make your goals for the year - join Brad and LL in chatting about the impact of coaching, finding gaps in your industry, and the various forms of self care (which may just include taking a break). If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Coaching for life endeavors Listening to the gaps in your industry Entrepreneurial resilienceRedefine self care for you Staying curious Episode References/Links:Agency Mini  OPC Flashcards:OPC Flashcards are on AmazonOPC Flashcards are on our site  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.  ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Social MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:01  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice not, a perfect. Let's get started.Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life, Brad and I are going to dig into the layered convo I had with Megan Linney, (Brad: Oh, yeah) in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now, go back and listen to that one, and then come back and join us. Y'all, it was a good one. By the way, Happy New Year!Brad Crowell 1:01  Happy New Year.Lesley Logan 1:03  What? I'm so... I'm, you know, it's really funny to be thinking about the new year and be recording this in the old year. But I feel like it's gonna be a great frickin' year. So, I'm stoked about it. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 1:16  Yeah, it's definitely feeling more prepared (Lesley: Yeah) this, but you know, at the end of this year, then I don't, I don't remember ...Lesley Logan 1:27  We never we're organize within the year. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 1:28  Yeah. I don't, I always remember things being like, absolute crazy town at our, you know, running around, trying to get things done before we go on our trip or we, whatever it's gonna be. In this year definitely has a different vibe.Lesley Logan 1:43  You know, when people like running to the airport in home alone, and they're like running, it's like, (Lesley sings) that's how it felt every frickin' December and we stopped flying and it still didn't make it (Lesley laughs) get less. SoBrad Crowell 1:58  No, I think 2020, we still had a bunch of travel at the beginning of the year. And you know, it sets you (Lesley: Yeah) down a different path. And this year was I think, since I was, you know, 18, I think this might be the first solid year of sitting in one place and being on on the goal. I mean, we (Lesley: Yeah) did, we did do a little bit of travel, but not like, not like international trips and prepping for workshops.Lesley Logan 2:26  I mean, we did do (Brad: huge trips) two international trips. However, they were ...Brad Crowell 2:29  No, (Lesley: Yeah) no, it wasn't, it wasn't like we had to plan a retreat and host 20 people (Lesley: No) and like something that will take you like planning those things takes me off of my focus for weeks at a time.Lesley Logan 2:41  Yeah, ... the the but you don't see behind the doors, behind the scenes of putting a retreat together is like it is, it is not even just the amount of time it is to be on the retreat is, some of it. Couple of things are years on the making. And (Brad: Sure) things are months in the making. And then there's like a lot of hurry up and wait. (Brad: Yeah) And it's true, like ... In 2021, yes, we did do a couple trips, but we were invited as guests. (Lesley: Yeah) Or we're just showing up to participate. (Lesley: Yeah) It wasn't like we were running the show.I gotta be honest, I feel very spoiled. (Lesley laughs) (Brad: Right. Yeah) So, you know, we are definitely, well, time will tell but I think we're gonna have a balance of things. And I think I'm excited for us to announce and explore what we're doing more in the, in the travel arena. (Brad: Yeah) But ...Oh man, I cannot wait to go back to Cambodia (Lesley: We're ...) and host another retreat, they're ... (Lesley: We're really close, y'all on that. We ...) itching, itching to go.We definitely just have one little thing we have to figure out so we can actually put something in the books. And so but that is not the amount that I was excited about. (Brad: No) (Brad laugsh) So let me just say, (Brad: Happy New Year) January is a big month. It's my birthday month. (Brad: Oh yeah) Aahh, you can tell me "Happy birthday", every frickin' day, it will not bother me. I do love my birthday. It is so fun. But also this month, we have our sixth Agency Mini so we do it the end of January. And you can sign up for that at profitablepilates.com/mini. It is our seven day coaching program for fitness and professionals. That means Pilates instructors you and your yoga friends and trainers too. And also we are finally going to be able to release our scheduling tool.Brad Crowell 4:20  This is like, I'm very excited about this.Lesley Logan 4:22  Brad is so excited about this. And so it is ...Brad Crowell 4:24  Y'all, y'all, we've been working behind the scenes with another company. (Lesley: Yeah) A software company (Lesley: Mm-hmm) who are working with us to make a custom build (Lesley: Yeah) of their app. (Lesley: Yeah) And we get to you know doctored it up with a whole bunch of coaching stuff, fitness (Lesley: Yeah) business coaching stuff, which obviously that's what we do. (Lesley: Mm-hmm) And ...Lesley Logan 4:46  And like legal stuff, it's gonna be frickin' awesome. I can't wait for it to be out there for you to see and get your hands on but ...Brad Crowell 4:53  But if you if you're running a business of any kind, you could be literally walking a dog or you could be you know, running a Pilates studio with a full team and 50 clients. This is a tool, this is a scheduling software, invoicing software, client management software that you can use, where we are also able to provide coaching and then some legal contract templates for you as well. (Lesley: Yeah) So very exciting. (Lesley: Yes ...) Coming up in just a few weeks.Lesley Logan 5:19  Yeah, you can get on the waitlist for that at (Brad: Oh) profitablepilates.com/scheduling. (Brad: Yeah, scheduling) (Lesley laughs) The notes are not in front of me. So that was that, but I'm really excited about that.It's a profitablepilates.com/scheduling.Yeah. Okay, so we had an audience question. Um, this came from last week's episode, we actually announced that the Mini-doors were open.Brad Crowell 5:44  Right. Yeah, the question was from a new teacher, and said, "Hey, I'm brand new. Is it too early for me to be jumping into Mini or into Agency?"Lesley Logan 5:55  Yeah. Well, I think it's, I mean, as long as you've done your training, or you're finishing up, we definitely have a lot of people who have joined us who are still in their training. It's never too early to have really awesome coaching and direction on growing your business. Because let me just tell you, why would you want to like (Lesley laughs) wander around throwing things on the wall, when you could actually have someone going? Is that what you want to do? I know that sounds really good. But remember, when you said you want to do this, just so (Brad: Yeah) you know, those two things don't actually stay in the same room. But that's also okay. And we don't tell, like as coaches, we will never tell you that's wrong or not going to work. But we definitely are going to be honest with you. And so I would, that's why I wrote my book was so that people would actually hear the coaching advice, before they went out and did stuff, before they went six months up the wrong road and doing what everyone else is doing. Because they thought that's what they should be doing, or (Brad: Yeah) charging rates based on the going rate in the neighborhood. No, I, it's never too early, as long as you are already in your training, that's a great start. If you're about to start your training, you know, it might feel a lot more overwhelming because you're in the middle of a training and you're doing coaching advice. I'm going to say like finishing up a training is, it's you have the light end of the tunnel is a great time to start or if you just finished, that's really great. And we absolutely can coach you, plus you're gonna see so much inspiration of like what could be I mean, we have people that we coach who've been doing this for 20 years, and (Brad: Yeah) what they're able to do now in their business because of our coaching is, is an, is absolutely inspirational, it shows you possibility. So, I would love to see you in there.It's the next layer of their business.Layer. We're just layering it in here. (Brad laughs) Oh, my gosh.Brad Crowell 7:39  So, I couldn't agree with you more, there's it's never too soon to get coaching. In fact, I would, I would say not only should you go get coaching, but forever, for the rest of your career, you should have some kind of a coach or mentor, (Lesley: Yeah) or some kind of a person that you are willing to share the, you know your path with and, and kick the ideas around, you know, whether that, whether the and you know the the successes and the failures, and to reflect on them, there is so much value in taking a look at what we're specifically doing right now and what we're planning to do, and then getting another opinion on it. Whether that solidifies your own, or you actually get some great advice from them. It helps you form that opinion, even more (Lesley: Yeah) and more solidly, like help you execute it better. It's there's so much value in it.Lesley Logan 8:36  Well, and like just so you all know, like Brad and I have had coaches for years we've, (Brad: Yeah) since 2017, I started doing working with coaches on different things. And in 2020 to combined, we had three coaches, we just leveled up with another coach, I'm really friggin' excited about. And what's so great about that is because we are investing in our coaching, we and our coaches, none of the coaches we've hired have no coach, they all have their own coaches who are like the next level up, you're getting, you're you're getting a lot. It's not just like the old stuff that we pulled out of a hat from five years ago. It's new stuff, it's what's working now in other company, we know (Brad: Sure) things that behind the scenes stuff. And so, (Brad: Yeah) you know, if you're wanting people to invest in you and your fitness business, you have to be investing in your fitness business.Brad Crowell 9:25  I think the only time that I didn't have coaching was when I was an employee only. (Lesley: Right, because ...) When I was not running, you know, or trying to run a project or run a business that that you know ...Lesley Logan 9:39  Right and that makes total sense because you like you're in in theory, you're getting paid to do someone else's goal. So if they they should be coaching you. (Lesley laughs)Right. But you know coaching can also take the shape of counseling or (Lesley: Yeah) therapy.Yeah, yes, (Brad: you know, so) yes, yes. All those things as we know. (Brad: Yeah) Therapy is like laundry, do it often. (Brad laughs)Brad Crowell 10:02  You just got to keep doing it. (Lesley: gotta keep doing it) (Brad and Lesley laughs) Oh, sorry (Lesley: Okay) that's not what I meant. (Lesley laughs) It is, it is but... Okay, okay. Now let's talk about Megan Linney. Through finding the gaps in the beauty and wellness industry, Megan Linney is a licensed Esthetician, Massage Therapist and Spa Executive who created The Layer Lounge. She spends her days making friends and creating a community of people comfortable to trust her with their self care. And she's pulling from years of working in the the spa world. And she made a whole career out of that, she was running high end spas, she was opening spas, she was managing spas all around the (Lesley: Yeah) country. And and she realized at the end of her last employed experience that, "This is probably the last time that I'm going to work for someone else. It's time for me to go do my own thing." (Lesley: Yeah) And then I loved that the conversation kind of took this turn of like, "I had done my own thing before, I just kind forgot about, you know (Lesley laughs) the life of being entrepreneur."Lesley Logan 11:12  Because it, because the audience is mostly women, and I'm sure a few great men. I even think those two great men have women in their lives. It is amazing how many women forget about the pain of pregnancy. And I would never have equated entrepreneurship to (Lesley laughs) that in anyway. But I loved how she brought that up. And she's like, "It's like women, they forget pain. And it's a special thing and then they just have they have six kids because they forgot." (Brad: Yeah) But it freakin' sucks. (Lesley laughs) And I think it's true. Like, as someone we've, I've been working for myself, since 2009. But like, especially in 2016, when I fully went for myself. You know, as we make changes, I, it's like you forget, you only it's almost like I only remember the good stuff of a launch. I don't always remember all the bad things that happened. Like, we obviously, we make changes and we try not to make those mistakes again. (Brad: Yeah) But like, we never go up, we have to launch again. Here we go. (Brad: Done) (Lesley laughs) Because we, we like, block out the amount of hours and weeks and days of prep to it. Brad Crowell 12:14  Oh, well, I do laugh about how intense Mini is for us, like the amount of effort that we're putting in. (Lesley: Yeah) But I never remember that. I'm like, "Oh, cool. We get to do this again." (Lesley: I know) And then it comes up and I'm like, "Oh, right. Like I gotta spend like six hours a day in a Facebook group." Right, right. (Lesley: Yeah) Okay, okay. Here we go. Here we go.Lesley Logan 12:32  Yeah, yeah. So anyways, um, okay, so out of the things that I that she taught... that she brought up that I loved was listening to the concerns and gaps in your industry to create something new. So we talked a little about this with, with even Taylor Smith, it's like, what are the questions you keep asking? Like, that's probably our next thing. But you know, what Megan did? What we've done in our, in all of our companies is like, what, where is the whole? Like, where are people falling through, because there's these amazing opportunities out there. There's amazing products, there's amazing spas out there. But there are people who don't have access to that. And she, or that the the way that they exist is not exactly going to solve the problem of the needs of the people. And so that's even how we created OPC it's like, there's a ton of people out there who would like the convenience of an on demand platform, but they really love some things, but in person, and how can we do that? And so I just think that if you are out there trying to figure out something new, it's, it's the...Brad Crowell 13:35  Well, look, I think, also take a step back and look at your industry as if you weren't in your industry. (Lesley: Yeah) right? Because what she said is, in a spa world, you walk into a spa, someone steps out of the room, and then you get naked. And then you lay on a table and that's not normal. (Lesley: Right) But in a spa world, that's what they do. So like, you don't think anything about it. And she said, "What if they didn't have to do that? Would that allow some other people to access this? And feel more comfortable about participating in it?" Right? So it's funny, we we go, we just like get in the world of this. And we just, you know, like, this is just the way it is in our thing. (Lesley: Well...) And she's like, "Well, what if it doesn't have to be?" So that's another way to look at, you know, the gap.Lesley Logan 14:27  And also, like, I think a lot of people think I have to create something that's never been done before. But the reality is, is actually where all the money is, and like we have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs to get to see this. Creating something unique within a market that already exist is going to be 10, like it's act there's a reason why there's a million frickin' beers out there. So, Lori Harder, (Brad: Right) Lori and Chris harder were coaches of ours years ago, and I got to be in the same room as she was coming up with this idea, this drink that you want to make, and she is making a beverage as a sparkling Rosé and then there's also a non alcoholic one, because she's like, "I want to hang out with my girlfriends. And sometimes I don't want something heavy, and I don't want something high calorie." And she's like, "I feel like there's no drink beverage out there that is making it easy for women who want to have some fun with their girlfriends, but don't want to wake up the next day regretting that fun, or for the women who don't drink, but they want to feel like they're having the same beverage, they can be at the same environment, the same things." And so,Brad Crowell 15:26  Yeah, (Lesley: so) so she's not reinventing the wheel of (Lesley: No) making a drink? (Lesley: No) But she's making a variation or a differentiator on that drink. (Lesley: Yeah) By identifying like, "Well, when I'm doing this thing, this is my struggle. This is my, this is where I'm missing. You know, I wish there was X."Lesley Logan 15:44  Yeah. So, I think that like it is it... you might be going around going, "I have to create something so different." No. Like Brad said, like, take a look outside and like ask questions that someone who doesn't understand what ask and then what are the questions you keep getting asked or one of the frustrations you keep hearing, and then create that. And it's really cool. I got to be honest, it's scary. When we were making our thing, I definitely was worried like who's gonna buy this? And of course, I got the questions about people wanting "the thing" that we weren't offering and I had to be okay with being like, "I'm not offering the thing that you want. And that's okay." Right. (Brad: Right) And for Megan, like, if you do want the three hour spa experience with the champagne and the robes and the whole thing, those places do exist. And you can you can go there. (Brad Yeah) You're also very welcome at The Layer Lounge. Okay. (Brad: Yeah) What did you love that she said?So I kind of already hinted at it, but entrepreneurial resilience. She, she was like, wow, I didn't remember, you know, (Thank you Gaia, I love you, too.) I didn't remember all of the, you know, the trials and the long hours and all the things, you know, of running your own business, like she had experienced before until she was back in it. And then she was like, "Oh, right. Yeah, I don't really get to take weekends off." (Lesley: I don't get to get paid) You know, until (Lesley laughs) I don't even get to get paid until it's like actually moving forward, you know, when you can replace yourself in that kind of thing. And I, I think that one of the one of having having now started, you know, dozens of companies over the past, you know, almost 20 years, the, one of the hardest thing to deal with, as an entrepreneur is when you missed the mark. (Lesley: Yeah) And, you know, whatever that might be, whether you didn't open the doors on the same, in the day that you had planned, you know, or whether you had created a product that didn't, didn't sell, or, you know, or whatever, you made a mistake, I mean, any any of those kinds of things. When you are in a, an employment scenario, presumably you have someone holding you accountable to this kind of stuff. And like, you know, there's some kind of ramification and whatever that might be for, that will keep you accountable. When you're an entrepreneur, it's you, (Lesley: Yeah) right, or maybe you have a partner, you know, but you know, to when you are going through this kind of, like, hopefully you have a manager or a boss, if you're an employee who will sit down and have a tough conversation with you, and then show you where you went wrong, or what you could be doing better or whatever, and encouraging you and helping you then go and do this again, and get you through to become better at what it is you're doing. When you're an entrepreneur, you don't necessarily have that unless you get coaching, by the way. (Lesley: Yeah) You know, but you don't necessarily have that all the time. And it's, it's hard to go, like, "Wow, that sucked. How can we do it better? Or how can we move forward?" And, and, and whatever the thing might be to make it better? (Lesley: Yeah) It's hard to have that objective perspective and that (Lesley: Well, that's where the resilience comes in) is that entrepreneurial resilience, (Lesley: And I ...) exactly.I think you, I think we have gotten better at going, "Okay, that didn't go to plan." And not taking it personally, which is like another thing, but I ...Brad Crowell 19:21  Yeah, that's a huge part of it.Lesley Logan 19:23  ... especially (Brad: huge part of it) when it's especially because for us, like all of these businesses have my frickin' face on them. (Lesley laughs) And it's like, it's hard not to take it personally. And people are like, "No, I don't want that." It's like, "Oh, (Brad: oh, sure.) Oh, sure but it's not me." It's you don't want that business and that's okay. But like you have to whatever you're doing, even if it's a personal brand or a product brand, it is important that you have that entrepreneurial resilience and that you you can't take it personally because it's not personal. It's not personal. It could be that they don't trust themselves to do the thing that you're offering. And so it's not personal at all, they're just saying, "That's not going to work for me." And that's because they they know themselves enough to know, "I don't follow through with those kinds of things." And that's okay. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 20:10  This circles back to Megan, with the gap in the industry that she's filling where it's, it's a spa experience that you can come in on your lunch break. And, you know, and enjoy. And that might not be for everyone. (Lesley: Right) Right? So, but that's her innovative idea. And she has created a really fun space to be in. And the experience that you get is a spa experience for your face. But maybe not the experience of like, you know, like Lesley mentioned the champagne and like, you know, all that kind of stuff. And if someone rejects that saying, "No, I want that big thing." Like Megan's not going to take that personally, because she knows who she's for, (Lesely: Yeah) you know, and so she can say, "Okay, it's fine. This is not for you and that's okay." (Lesley: Yeah) Right. And that's, you know, but but you're totally right, taking it personally, you know, beating yourself up to, you know, that, that resilience, moving moving the ball forward, without, you know, hanging yourself out the dry.Lesley Logan 21:14  I think it's a rep scheme, you know, like it like, it would be, I think it'd be very, very rare human that in the beginning of your business, then you have any debt you didn't take personally, like, it's gonna be hard like, or at least on a bad day. So it's okay, if you've taken some things personally, I want you to know that where what happens is, the more you put yourself out there, the more you market your business, the more you do that. The more you realize, Brad has a course on this called 200 No's, like, the more you realize it's a numbers game. Like Megan (Brad: Totally) said, "It's a numbers game." And so, really, like, you're gonna get rejected way more often than people are gonna say "yes" to you. And for most businesses, that's actually okay. If every single when I was teaching Pilates in my studio if every single person I ever came across said "yes" to me. I probably (Lesley laughs) would've gone crazy. And I probably had a lot of clients I didn't like so it's actually okay, that I only had the 15 clients for years that loved me. (Brad: Yeah) Loved me. And also because they love me, they weren't luke warm. They told everybody about me, and not everybody that they told wanted to come, but the ones that did were freaking awesome. (Brad: Yeah) So anyways,Yeah, that's super true.All right, well, good luck on that resilience. Keep trying. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 22:29  Alright, finally, let's talk about the BE IT action items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Megan Linney? So she said something very, I was gonna say, layered, but it's not layered. It's just profound. She said, "Self care is the cure." (Lesley: Yeah) And she's she, you know, obviously, she believes it so much that she's worked in the self care industry for a long time, and open her own business in that world. But self care doesn't always I...100% think that self care can include a spa or you know, a haircut, or your nails or a facial or whatever. But it's also like that self care is, you know, taking a break, (Lesley: Mm-hmm) you know, getting up from your computer, walking around the block, you know, getting some vitamin D from the sun. And, and it's when I think that there's this weird misconception, (Thank you Gaia for participating.) there's this weird misconception that, you know, going out and, you know, treating yourself (Lesley: Yeah) is somehow frivolous or (Lesley: Yeah) you know, like, oh, that's money that you could have save.Lesley Logan 23:51  It has to be a reward of some kind, like ...Right. Or has to be or we associated with like, you know, you scored a goal in your game now we're gonna go you know, I don't know, get (Lesley: Yeah) go to the park, something ...But like, it's like, as an adult, it's like, oh, okay, well, you went to the gym every day. You said you were now you can go to the spa. No, like you can you get to self care should absolutely be like drinking water, and sleep, and all the things that we do for ourselves, brushing your teeth. That's what and if we think about how, like, they have shown that stress is like the cause of 99% of illnesses. Well, then the opposite of that is self care, you know?Brad Crowell 24:27  Yeah, yeah. And I, I, I didn't actually know that.Lesley Logan 24:32  Oh, yeah. It's a whole thing. (Brad: 99%). Yeah, they there's a whole thing that's like 99% of all illnesses and diseases are caused by stress, because stress raises your cortisol levels, which I mean, I've seen the infomercials that also increases belly fat. (Lesley laughs) But it's it keeps you from. So here's how it happens. So stress causes your stomach to not do digestion, which causes bloating and increased and discomfort when you don't go through di... digestive cycle, you are also starting to affect your sleep cycle. And if you're not sleeping, then you also then don't digest and it becomes this vicious cycle. So if you're not digesting, then you're not absorbing nutrients. If you're not absorbing nutrients, you don't have the things that you need to walk around on this earth with the a bit like the same abilities as anybody else does. And when you're not having that nutrition, you're constantly not getting those things, then of course, other things can happen and it just becomes this like vicious spiral. Ah downward spiral. So yeah ...Brad Crowell 25:32  Yeah. Okay, well ... (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 25:35  Anyways, we can dive into that another. I'll have a doctor on, well, I've already had one, we've had Dr. Bender, but (Brad: Yeah) we'll be back to talk about stress. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 25:42  Yeah, yeah. So you know what, with self care, Megan really believes that it is the cure of all the things you know, and and I know, that's something that I personally am not very good at (Lesley: Yeah) is self care. You know, like, like I was talking about before, "I'll sleep when I'm dead." (Lesley: Yeah) That's terrible mentality.Lesley Logan 26:05  I don't think, I don't think most, I don't know maybe this is a Western thing. But I don't think most people are actually really good at self care. Because we have been told, like, push harder, no pain, no gain, keep going. Like, you'll sleep when you're dead.Brad Crowell 26:16  The harder you work, the better you'll be, you know.Lesley Logan 26:18  There was this whole, like, reward or like, what is it like getting bonus points for like, "I only slept four hours last (Brad: Yeah) night or whatever." And like, the reality is, is that ..."I'm so busy. Oh, me too." Like, that's like a badge of honor somehow.Yes, exa... and I, what I can say is, I'm healthier today, because of all the self care that I do. And most of the issues that I was having with my that caused my stomach issues back in 2013 was how much I was overworking because I couldn't actually afford the move I made to LA and so I had to like double down and I was not taking care of myself anymore. Like I had before then and so anyways, I do agree be it till you see it - "Self care, self care is the cure" was such a great I mean re li... Y'all re listen to that will ... of that because it was like chills, and like such a great reminder. You might need to like replay it for yourself when you're like debating whether or not you should do this other thing or take care of yourself first.Yeah, well, yes, agreed, 100%. What did what was your BE IT action item, taken away from the convo with Megan?Well, she also mentioned "Stay curious" and I think that can be really hard if you like to know the answers to things (Lesley laughs) you know, like ah, but that curiosity she mentioned because I was like, I was like, "Oh yeah, curiosity killed the cats like and satisfaction brought it back" and I was like, "I've never heard that before." And I just, I think it's just really you know, we've had other guests mention some version of curiosity in their BE IT action items. And it seems to be this like overarching theme. And I do think that it's not easy to be curious because again, we're used to we're told to find an answer that's what we're like trained to do in school. But if you can, if you can play a curiosity game if you could, if you could do like some things that I think for curiosity sake and you're like, "Wouldn't it be cool if or stupid idea time?" Or you know, like, just like having fun, you know, children like find joy and wonder and the weirdest thing is like, try that if curiosity is difficult for you, but I really did love it and I had I'm so grateful now. I know, I now know that satisfaction brought it back. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 28:39  Yeah, that was I also didn't, I didn't I'd never heard that before either. (Lesley: Yeah) And, and I think that's great. And you know, that satisfaction brought it back makes me think about my obsession with Wikipedia. (Brad laughs) Because whatever I'm like, "I don't know that word or I don't know that thing. Or what is this thing?" I just like ... ... and I get the satisfaction of getting a response. Lesley Logan 29:03  Oh my gosh, okay, can we just take a moment for curiosity? I'll only have a moment. But, so Brad and I listen to these podcasts and on it's from a whole media and on several different podcasts are bringing up Machine Gun Kelly and Megan ... (Brad laughs) What's her name? (Brad: Fox) Fox. And you know, like, I, I'm some, I don't know how but I like somehow, through osmosis, I keep up on some popular trends ...And I've seen Transformers so I know who Megan Fox (Lesley: Yeah) is, but I don't have a clue who Machine Gun Kelly is.And also like, when I listening to the podcast, we don't listen together. I wasn't thinking, "Oh, Brad's not going to understand this. Maybe I should tell him who these people are." Right? So anyways, I'm sitting in the office, I'm working and Brad goes, "Okay, I had to frickin' look up who Machine Gun Kelly and Megan Fox is." And he literally starts reading out loud the story of how they got together. Who Megan Fox was married to before. Her love life, what we now know of it, and then he goes, "Okay, I'm satisfied." (Lesley laughs) So curiosity does not have to be in business. (Brad laughs) It doesn't have to be physically like health related, it can 100% ... (Brad: I closed the loop.) Yeah, it can just be about closing the loop. (Brad: Yeah) So if you hear something on a podcast and it makes you curious, go look it up. You know, like, the worst case scenario is you last five minutes to Machine Gun Kelly and Megan Fox's love life. (Brad laughs) But that like now, it's kind of like, what was that tiger show? Tiger King? (Brad: Oh, yeah) it's like, we now know who Carol is? Right? So we get the things (Brad: Oh, yeah) sometimes just have to go, "What is people talking about?" Anyways, I friggin' love Megan. I'm so grateful that we know her. I'm grateful that she took time out of her busy life to do this podcast and, and I really enjoyed the whole conversation. I hope y'all did too.Brad Crowell 30:52  Yeah. Awesome.Lesley Logan 30:53  I'm Lesley Logan.Brad Crowell 30:54  And, I'm Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 30:55  Thank you so much for joining us today. We are so grateful you're here. Happy New Year. May this be just so much fun for you. I'm in a very curious year, a layered year. How are you going to use these tips in your life? Let us know by sending us a DM to the pod on Instagram and tag @thelayerlounge. Tag @be_it_pod and we'll catch you on the next episode.Brad Crowell 31:14  Looking forward to it. Bye.Lesley Logan 31:18  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 31:51  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 32:02  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 32:27  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes, so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

How was the female body discussed growing up? What is seed cycling? Can you utilize hormones to your benefit? Brad and Lesley break apart these questions and unpack how through listening to your body - you can make your period a superpower. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:How to deal with the end of year overwhelmThe stigma of talking about periods in the home The importance of tracking and utilizing the phases of your cycleSeed cyclingThe stigma of the female body and cycles with men Using your cycle as a superpowerListening to your body, the patterns are dataGetting good at asking for helpEpisode References/Links:LESLEY'S HOLIDAY PILATES POP UP TOURGuest Bio:Jenn Pike is a functional diagnostic nutritionist and medical exercise specialist with over 20 years of experience. She helps females recognize the impact that hormones have on every aspect of their body and then helps empower them to become educated in how to utilize their hormones to their benefit. Founder of The Hormone Project, Synched, and The Simplicity Project, Jenn helps females decode what their body is telling them. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:01  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.(Brad laughs) Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life, Brad and I are going to dig into the enlightening convo I had with Jenn Pike in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now, go back and listen to that one and then come back and join us or figure out the... well as you go. Maybe you want to do both. Maybe you want to do this first. I don't know.Pick and choose (Lesley: Pick and choose) you know. (Lesley: Maybe one week you do ...) We have more than 50 episodes to listen to now.I know. It's so many. It's so fun. And people have relistened to certain ones and I frickin' love it. (Brad: Yeah) All right. So we are literally as you're listening to this, hopefully if it's before the 12th we are packing up the ... (Brad: Yeah. We're preppin.) RBG the Rosebud Globetrotter, (Brad: Oh yeah) which Brad has committed to blogging about (Brad: I have) over on onlinepilatesclasses.com We are packing it up because we are hitting the road for the fourth year in a row, (Brad: fourth year) yeah, to go to Philly. And then we added in Florida this time.Brad Crowell 1:42  We gonna all the way down to Miami (Lesley: because we're crazy) (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 1:45  But we love our friends. And (Brad: It will be great) I know so um ...Brad Crowell 1:49  I think that we may be closer to 6000 miles on this trip than any of the others.Lesley Logan 1:54  Yeah, cuz I don't think the others we hit 6000 ...Brad Crowell 1:57  And we're... it's like 55 and then 58 (Lesley: Yeah) you know, and this (Lesley: Well ...) one I think the last year is one was the shortest because we just powered through.Lesley Logan 2:03  We powered through and we moved to Vegas. We started four ... (Brad: Oh, that is true) four hours early. (Brad: We definitely ...) We cut off eight hours, (Brad: Yeah, that's true) at least. I think what I don't know. I don't know. I think the first year (Brad: Yeah) it was like a lot. Anyway, their traffic sucks. Anyways, so because of creative spaces and creative thinking and possibility, we (Brad: Yeah) are bringing back the winter tour. So we are doing a happy hour for peeps who love us and listen to this and our members in Denver, (Brad: Yep) quickie little hot toddy. And somewhere in Denver. I think in the Low Highland area. If you don't know that, then you're probably not from Denver. So no worries. Then we're gonna head over to Pennsylvania to do, I think we're in Lehigh Valley for this class. But we say Philly area. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 2:51  Yeah, so just the... we're gonna be in Denver on the 13th of December. (Lesley: Okay) Right.Lesley Logan 2:56  Oh, yes. Say the dates, then the 19th of December, we have a mat class, inside of a FastPitch, practice thing that I really ... (Brad: It's gonna be a massive venue) is a (Brad: huge) massive venue. And the reason for that is we're still in this weird world so we can spread the heck out (Brad: Oh, yeah) and enjoy an amazing space. I'm so grateful to the FastPitch place for and Alex and his team for giving us this opportunity to use a space like that in the winter time of Philly so we can be together and spread out. Then we're going to head on the 28th to Atlanta area. (Brad: Yes) It's actually Duluth where our friend Joel Crosby of Vitality Method Pilates is hosting us to do semi privates, my fast workshop. (Brad: It's basically all day we're gonna be ...) We're at a studio all frickin' day. (Brad: Yeah) I'm teaching two semi privates. I know one and a half are sold out but rock on, go to the go to the link in the show notes to see what's left. The fast workshop, we have some spots in person and we have a few spots online because (Brad: Virtual) cuz Joel is insane. He's got this humongous screen. So it feels like you're there. I haven't taught this workshop in person since I don't know. I don't even know.Brad Crowell 4:07  Maui? (Lesley: Yeah) Yeah. (Lesley: I think so) 2019 I think 20...Lesley Logan 4:11  Then... Yeah, then we're hitting a rooftop in Miami on December 30th.Yeah, that's gonna be fun. (Lesley: I know) It's me a party, actually.I taught on that spot before it is beautiful. It's going to be at sunset and so again, we could be outdoors. It's lovely. It's Miami, so it's not freezing cold. Don't worry about it. And a great way to end the year and then we're gonna end in Dallas.Yeah, on January 4.Thank you Alicia.Brad Crowell 4:34  We are gonna be in Frisco.Lesley Logan 4:35  Yeah. Which is like near this like, practice field for the Dallas cowboys. If you love them, you know it if you don't, so sorry. It's really cool. Anyways, we're going to be in Frisco, and we have an equipment class there. So super, super fun. If you want to tour with us.Brad Crowell 4:51  Yeah, just go to onlinepilatesclasses.com/tour.Lesley Logan 4:55  Oh, that's a great link. Wonderful. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 4:57  Yeah, come join us, hang out.Lesley Logan 4:59  I'm so excited to hit the road, I really really am. Even though I do realize that I'm gonna be driving all the way across the country to Florida and then back, but it's going to be an adventure. Alright. Babe, do we have an audience question?Brad Crowell 5:11  We definitely did. And this one is very poignant, because it's the end of the year. And the question was, "How do you deal with end of the year overwhelm?"Lesley Logan 5:24  Well, how do you deal with it?Brad Crowell 5:25  I like to bury my head in the sand, pretend that nothing's (Lesley laughs) happening and ignore everything. Nobody can call me. No, I'm lying. You know, it's it's definitely I feel like there's a double obligation. It's not just work stuff, but it's also social. The overwhelm happens with like, all the holiday dinners, and the friends need to see each other and things and, and I love every second of that, but suddenly, it's like, a lot. It's just a lot of stuff, right. And so I think we are intentional about when we're willing to, you know, leave the house and go out. Also, what projects we are expecting to finish. And I think that we have to give ourselves the space and grace to understand that the holidays are going to take at very least one week is of your month is officially gone, right? (Lesley: Yeah) But it could even be longer than that for you know, depends on where you're traveling from or to and all the things. So you know, the end of the year, work really hard until you know, the week before Christmas, and then and then take time off. So,Lesley Logan 6:36  Well, I am I actually think that this particular episode we're recapping is really helpful because it talks about she... Jenn Pike talks about paying attention to patterns in your body and in your life. And something that I think we've gotten really good at at this point is that we know how much stuff we have to wrap up so that we can enjoy the end of the year. We don't always get that done. I do recall last year having to cram a few things in during the vacation time. But we have gotten better. In fact, this year, (Brad: Yeah) I will be filmed through February, we will have this podcast, y'all. Next week, we will be recording or actually while you are listening to this will be recording many of the recaps. So that that's done. So what I would say, (Brad: Definitely trying to plan ahead) whatever is overwhelming you now I would actually make time for yourself this at the end of this year to plan in advance throughout next year. So if you don't want to be cramming things in December, then how can you take what you're having to cram in and spread it out over the other 11 months? Because that's the thing, if you actually spread it out over 11 months, it's like "this much." It's you can't see me on the podcast, but I'm holding up my two fingers like "this much." (Brad: Yeah) And, and so what what I last year, I was actually a little bit more overwhelmed, because I didn't want to be overwhelmed anymore. So, I actually had a film extra and a time of overwhelm so that I can get to a point where I will be filmed ahead and everything that we do. And so I definitely am actually excited about this trip more so because I'm pretty much ready. But I wasn't always that way. And so if you are in overwhelm right now, I've been there and it freakin' sucks. And I would ask yourself, "Does it actually have to be done by the 31st?"Brad Crowell 8:21  Yeah, I think for people who are experiencing overwhelm right now, whether it's because of your family obligations, or it's because of your work obligations? I think if you're not the boss that makes things complicated, of course, if you are the boss, are these deadlines, arbitrary? Did you make them? Do they really have to be done by whatever date? You know, what can you prioritize instead, to make sure that does have to be done on time, something maybe could be bumped to the next year? When it comes to the family. You know, maybe limit your time with your family on purpose, right? I know that one thing that contributes to overwhelm, especially for people who are introverts is not having time alone. Right? So plan ahead, make sure you have time to recharge. (Lesley: Yeah) That's a super important one.Lesley Logan 9:09  Well, I mean, like when we go to your family, we are in their house. And we it's the our bedroom is next to their bedroom. And there's a lot of family gatherings and we want to make sure you see your family because we're only there for a week. And that's it for the whole year. And something I do is I go to bed early. (Brad: Right) I ... I'm like, "Okay, good night everyone." I leave you up with your family and then I wake up early and I walk the dogs by myself. (Brad: Right) I don't want people to walk with me that is my private time. And I really am intentional about that. So I would just take note of the overwhelm you're having right now and really ask like you have to be really honest like 30,000 foot view it's not your personal life. What of this actually has to be done right now? And do you actually throw that party? I know you think, "Oh my God if I know it was party people are gonna knows." People don't notice as much as you think unless the parties in your honor and then yeah, probaly show up. But maybe ... (Brad: Happy birthday) Yeah. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 10:03  Wait, where's the birthday girl? (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 10:06  Wouldn't that be so fun to throw the most amazing party and not be at it? (Brad laughs) I wonder if it's possible? Anyways, I feel you. And what I would say is make an intention this year to set yourself up so you're not in overwhelm next year. (Brad: Yeah) That is not exactly the the answer you're looking for. But I promise you, I'm sitting here for the first time. I think Brad since he's know me. And I'm not like, freaking out about how much I have to get done, because I already put it into schedule. And I'm like, "Oh, it's all doable. (Brad: Yeah) I can do this." (Brad: Yeah.) So anyways, great question, send them into the @be_it_pod on Instagram.Brad Crowell 10:46  Okay, now let's talk about Jenn Pike. Jenn Pike is a functional diagnostic nutritionist, and medical exercise specialist with over 20 years of experience. She helps females recognize the impact that hormones have on every aspect of their body, and then helps empower them to become educated, and how to use their hormones to their benefit. That's an interesting thought there. (Lesley: No, I love it) She is the founder of The Hormone Project, Synched, and The Simplicity Project, and Jen helps females decode what their body is telling them. So that this pretty fascinating. I'm not gonna lie, I ... the first time we heard Jenn talking about this. She did a webinar for Agency for our coaching (Lesley: Yeah) group. And I, I felt like I was out in left field because I really had no idea what she was talking about and it made me curious. So, I went and started reading about different cycles, I didn't even know they're sorry, it's different phases of the cycle, I didn't even know that was a thing. And, and then how that makes, you know, a woman feel or, you know, not feel or frustrated, or, you know, whatever. There's just so many different things that are involved with it, that it's like, far above and beyond anything, I actually really understood about it.Lesley Logan 12:08  I know. And that's crazy, because you have a sister and a mother. And ...Brad Crowell 12:11  And when I say it, I mean, you know, hormone, hormonal cycles. (Lesley: Yeah. But I mean, like ...) We're talking about periods here, people.Lesley Logan 12:17  We are. (Lesley and Brad laughs) So something that I find fascinating is how much we don't talk about periods in households and how it is. And we talked about this before, but it's like soon as it's like, "Oh, I got my period today." Like if it's a bad thing, and it's like actually a superpower that women have, it's like really freaking cool. And you had a mom and a sister. Like, this should be things that like we're very much talked about your household, not ... (Brad: 100% not talked about in my household) And something that I love that is changing is that like, there are women out there who like Jenn who are changing this, like one of our members, Yuki Claire, she has only sons. And all of her sons are fully aware of pelvic floor health, pregnancy, periods, the humans that hormones, because she's like, whether or not they marry a woman doesn't matter. They're going to be around women in their life. (Brad: Right) And it's important that we all know this, because I think it has a negative connotation, when actually it really is as positive, amazing, credible thing. And I have really tried to change my mindset around "Oh my God, my periods here." It's like, "Oh, okay. Look at... this is where I am today, like, (Brad: Yeah) this is really cool." And something I liked that we brought up, or she brought up with seed cycling. And, you know, I ...Brad Crowell 13:30  Before you jump into seed cycling, which I know ... has was so impactful for you, I just wanted to say, your perspective on your own cycle has changed the way that you live in the past six months or so since whatever eight months, whatever it was that she was on our webinar, because I noticed that you don't get frustrated with yourself (Lesley: Yeah) the way that you did before. (Lesley: I know) And also to ... this is a bit strange, because when I met you, you didn't actually ever have a period. (Lesley: That's true.) You never actually had the cycle and that was because of health reasons. (Lesley: Yeah) And that obviously wasn't a good thing. But you never had to deal with it, because it never happened. So for the... I don't know, five years of us being together, it wasn't something you had to deal with. And then like, "Surprise, you were getting healthy." And suddenly (Lesley: Yeah) that came back and you were like, "What the hell?"Lesley Logan 14:27  Yeah, my got my hormones under control. And it came back and I remember being so upset about it. (Brad: Yeah) Even though, it's a positive thing. It's a positive thing ...Brad Crowell 14:35  But that's what I'm saying. You were, you know, like, suddenly your body was operating the way that it should. And then, you know, you were having to deal with this every month again. And that was actually a perspective, "Oh, man. I have to deal with this." (Lesley: Yeah) Right? And it was frustrating you and you know, it would actually really, it was, it was impactful to me. I just want to say that as well because when you were frustrated about it, it wasn't like you were frustrated for like the afternoon. It was like you're frustrated for like five days, (Lesley: Yeah) you know. And so now ever since you, you've been, you know, learning about this too with Jenn stuff, I've noticed that you're different (Lesley: Yeah) about it.Lesley Logan 15:13  I am. And I also will say (Lesley laughs) I've definitely had the team on a bit of an edge, right? Like, "Everyone, I'm going to be changing when everything of mine is due based on my cycle." So, I'm only me filming on one part of my cycle, and I'm not gonna be filming up on my cycle. And I'm only to do these things. And I remember, even your sister was like, "So you're, the dates of things are gonna change every few months?" And I was like, "Yes." (Brad laughs) And feel free to watch this. And if you need to change your due dates, let's talk about that because all these ladies should be on the team, all these ladies on the team should be really like working along with their cycle. And I have to say in the few months that we've been doing my filming on the actual correct time of my cycle, (Brad: Yeah) it's been easy. (Brad: Yeah) And unfortunately, due to I need to film before we go on this road trip, I have to film (Brad: through) film through this time. And I am resentful ... (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 16:11  You can ... you can tell the difference. (Lesley: Yeah) ... because I mean, I noticed you've been jumping on filming. And with... with a way more positive attitude, (Lesley laughs) you know.Lesley Logan 16:19  Well, I always loved I love what we create. But for whatever reason, the week that we arbitrarily chose for me to film was literally the week of the cycle that I should be by myself. (Brad: Right) And like, ruminating, and journaling and all these things. And I know that sounds so "whoo." And it also might even sound privileged because I get to like, decide when I do things. But Jenn does talk about, at least in our webinar, she talked about how, you know, life happens, but she only has so many set work hours of her day. So no matter what part of her cycle is, if she has to show up. (Brad: Right) She can ... (Brad: if not for the whole day.) It's not an eight hour day (Brad: Yeah) of teaching classes, I mean, in them. So anyways, y'all, if you haven't listened this, frickin' just go back and listen to this. Um, she is amazing. She has some great resources, but ...Brad Crowell 17:09  She's also incredibly knowledgeable. (Lesley: So knowledgeable.) Yeah.Lesley Logan 17:13  So um, we're actually having her inside of OPC. So if you're like, (Brad: Oh) in love with her, you should be an OPC member if you're not one already, because she's gonna come in January.Brad Crowell 17:21  And do a webinar for OPC members. (Lesley: Yeah. Yeah, yeah) So cool.Lesley Logan 17:25  I know. I know. And I'm like, I was like, "I love you. I want you. I want to sprinkle your ish everywhere." (Brad laughs)Brad Crowell 17:31  Okay, well, what was one thing that you loved, I cut you off you were talking about?Lesley Logan 17:35  I know. So seed cycling everyone. So it was a little tricky for me when I seed cycling and traveling because bringing seeds ...Brad Crowell 17:40  Okay, (Lesley: from different countries) first off, just like, "What the hell is seed cycling?"Lesley Logan 17:44  Okay, so seed cycling, for my ladies who actually have a menstrual cycle, you will eat two types of seeds during one part of your cycle and two types of seeds, your other part of your cycles, so day one of your period. And through day 14, you do pumpkin seed and flax seed. And I highly recommend this on top of a smoothie. But you just mix it into something you have or just have a handful of pumpkin seeds as a snack and then toss some flax seeds on a salad or something like that. Then the other part of your cycle is sesame seeds and sunflower seeds. Also fun on a salad. You can also have those like sunflower butters and there's like you know sesame oil and things like that. But if you're consistent with that, you will notice that your hormones are actually more balanced out throughout the whole part of your cycle because it's just these foods are actually telling your body like, "Hey, remember, remember to like create this hormone right now." And it's ac... it's all healthy. It's all organic. It's really easy to ...Brad Crowell 18:40   It's literally seeds. We got bags of seeds.Lesley Logan 18:43  We have bags of seed. So I did this for a really long time. And I'm not even kidding you like, ladies, this is like, okay, this might be tmi, boobs get sore during parts of your cycling. And I'm like, "Please don't frickin' hug me" and I'm sure during COVID it's like, "Oh, thank God no one's touching me now." But let me just (Brad laughs) tell you when I did seed cycling, I never had that problem ever again. I still don't and ... I don't even seed cycling anymore but I just got my body on a regimen that's actually part of how we got my period back was seed cycling. So because I can't be on hormones. Um, so anyways, I highly recommend it. It was tricky for me and traveling because I would go, "Oh my God, I'm going through customs with all these loose seeds." (Brad and Lesley laughs) In zip-lock baggies but um ...Brad Crowell 19:19  Yeah, it did... that did look funny.Lesley Logan 19:21  We did not take him through New Zealand and Australia. I just bought seeds when I got there. But at any rate, if you are someone who's trying to be a little bit more organic, a little bit healthy, unsure of how to track your cycle, you can do seed cycling. Also my ladies who've gone through menopause, you can seed cycle with the moon. And I would just Google that because I actually don't remember how it works with the moon but you can do that and also your husband's ... (Brad: I was just gonna say this. Yeah) So husbands, men or just men in a household of women. You can seed cycle the reverse of the moon cycle, because men who live with women for a long time their testosterone levels go down (Brad: Yeah) because estrogen is like powerful and real, I have we haven't gotten that already from this episode. And so you can do that to keep your testosterone levels a little bit more regulated.Brad Crowell 20:08  Yeah. So and that's, that's pretty fascinating. In fact, that was ...Lesley Logan 20:13  It's that so cool the earth can do? Like, I think it's so we look for all these like things that people have created but like the friggin' earth has already been like, "Here you go, (Brad: here's your seeds) here's your here's your hormones, cycled for you."Brad Crowell 20:25  Well, I was gonna say that the thing that I loved about it, what this was a good lead up to it, is the stigma of the female body and cycles involving men. (Lesley: Yeah) Right? And you kind of already hinted at this with, you know, one of our, one of our coaching clients ... she has a house full of boys and obviously husband, and she ... So basically, she's like, the female in the household, (Lesley: Yeah) right? And I didn't grow up that way, I do have a sister, I do have a mom, and my- I have a brother and a dad. But we never talked about this, the only thing I ever learned about this was in school. And of course, that's funny and awkward and weird and silly and like, you know, like, (Lesley: Yeah) you know, immature? (Lesley: Yeah) And so, there was never any point where I actually understood, the only thing that I ever understood was that, you know, that it was... the process of going through the period is the woman's body, flushing out the unused, you know, parts for potentially having a baby, right? That's the only thing I ever really knew. And I knew I have it once a month. And that was the only thing I really ever knew. But I never understood how it affected a woman's mood, like, feeling, sensitivity, like, like, you know, skin, like I ... (Lesley: Yeah) like, you know, how it completely changes the way you approach things, your enthusiasm for, you know, anything, you know, I never actually understood this other than, like, the common, you know, stereotype of like, "Oh, it must be that time a month," because, you know, they're upset all the time, or whatever. And I don't think that's fair (Lesley: Right) because that's not actually ... you know, like, of course, there's some, a little bit of that there. But that's not like, it's not necessarily a given. Right? And it also, you know, it could be depression, (Lesley: Yeah) maybe it's not anger, maybe it's depression, or, you know, or, like stepping away and feeling like you want time alone, like it could change all these things. And I just never, I never was never aware of any of this.Lesley Logan 22:43  It's also like, I this is gonna, this is really interesting, but I am in a breathwork certification. And there's some interesting things that that people are doing with, with this cycle and like studying it all and everything and and the truth is, it's the only bloodshed that actually grosses people out. Which makes no sense to me. (Brad: Oh, that is ...) Because it's a natural thing that happens. It's ... (Brad: That's an interesting point) It naturally happens, women do not have control over when it happens. I mean, unless you do birth control, and then you can mix it around. But I highly recommend you try not to do that because it's not ideal. But it also like it grosses people out when like girls have to grab a tampon, and for whatever reason, they put in the most noise making frickin' plastic. (Brad laughs) So embarrassing. And then like, but then people make fun of them or whatever. If they see period blood on pants like, "Ew, gross," it's like, but that's the only one that's natural. But we have no problem seeing blood in movies where people are shot or horror films, things like that. Like that doesn't gross people out but it horrifies people to see period blood on a girl. And that is weird to me. And so anyways ... (Brad: I think that's just simply immature) Well, 100% but that's what's trained in people. So ... (Brad: Yeah, it is, it's a stigma.) One of the reasons I brought her on, I think I talked about this podcast is that like, most of you are women who listen to this and if you are a male, then you have women in your lives. And I want you to know about this. But one of the things that holds women back from being it till they see it is not understanding how their body works. (Brad: Right) And not using the superpowers that we have. And Dr. Bender actually was one of our OPC speakers. And she actually talked about how olympic, olympic athlete females are channeling how they train based on their cycle. And it's actually showing really crazy amazing improvements in their time and their races that men can't tap into because men have a 24 hour cycle, not a 28 day cycle or 27 to 29 day cycle. So anyways, this is in.. .incredible information to my female listeners that can literally help you be it till you see it, way faster than anything else. So anyways, um, should we talk about the BE IT action items?Brad Crowell 24:54  No. I wanted to talk a little more about the specifics (Lesley: Oh) of that because when you said superpowers, that's a weird way to say it. Okay. So like, how is it possible that like, you're going through cycle as a superpower. And it made me just pull up the transcript that we have of last episode because one, I just there's one example here, but Jenn talks about going through. So first off the your, your hormonal cycle has phases, right? And she specifically refers to the follicular phase. And she... she describes it by saying, this is where your body, your hormones, and estrogen and testosterone are starting to climb, your uterine lining is starting to thicken again, and typically where we actually feel more connected to our body. So during the follicular phase, we do well with the estrogen surge, we feel more clear, more focus, more energized, we feel happier, we are gung-ho, we want to create new projects, you know, and, you know, so there's this window, when suddenly you're like, really fired up to go be creative and have the energy and the excitement to go do this. So that's when you, Lesley are filming classes now. Right? (Lesley: Yeah) So that's how this can be a superpower because when you're ramping up before the the peak, and then you know, when things shift, and you come back down again, you know, that's when you're taking advantage of your natural rhythm, you know, of your body to do the more exertion of filming four classes in a day, which is like kind of hardcore. So yeah, so anyway, I that's I just wanted to explain how can it be a superpower? It can be a superpower in that way.Lesley Logan 25:05  Yeah. 100... Thank you.Brad Crowell 26:37  Yeah, you're welcome.Lesley Logan 26:39  Yeah. Okay.Brad Crowell 26:41  Awesome. Yeah. So let's talk about the BE IT action items. What bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Jenn Pike? So for me, I think she kind of threw this in at the very end, basically saying, you know, your body, listen to your body, your body knows, you know, it tells you things. And I thought this was so funny, because I think it was the BE IT action item but last week, or the last episode, your body actually signals to you, we're talking about my runny nose, right? (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 27:13  I've been watching for your nose throughout ...Brad Crowell 27:16  No, no. It only happens at like three in the morning when I'm like staring at a computer and I should totally not be awake anymore at that point. So,Lesley Logan 27:22  I'm not awake for that. I can't help you there.Brad Crowell 27:24  Yeah, yeah but you know, she's talking about listening to your body. And, and I, I think that the reason I'm bringing it up again, even though it was already a point from last week is looking at it through this lens of your cycle. Right? There is a, there are, you know, your body and you know, when you're feeling good, and when you're not feeling good. Now there's 1000 variables, how much sleep? How much stress? How much work? How much food? What are you eating? All, you know, are you drinking alcohol? There's like so many different things that can change the way that you feel, of course, but you know, are you able to be sensitive to how your body is feeling during these different phases of your cycle? And, you know, I think that take a look at, evaluate yourself, think about this over the next couple of months and understand like, "Hmm, wow, you know, I really do feel like I'm on fire, you know, you know, this time of the month, and I really feel like I should just be curling up and reading a book with a (Lesley: Yeah) cup of tea on this time of the month."Lesley Logan 28:27  Yeah, I mean, even if you just take out your notes on your phone and just wake like you just write down, I woke up feeling like this. And I went to bed feeling like this. And like, just track that and then go, "Oh, wow, look what it is?" But I mean, I use apps ...Brad Crowell 28:39  I was gonna say, why don't you tell them about that?Lesley Logan 28:40  So Jenn Pike actually told ... told us about the wild AI app, which she is not an affiliate for. And I'm not an affiliate for it, but I frickin' love it. I, it's actually for people who work out and want to track their cycle. And that's why I chose it over other ones. I'm not, I'm not, it's not like a tracker ... I mean, most of the apps tell you when you're like about to have like, it's like good time to have a baby. And I'm like, "I really just wanna know when it's like a good time to not have a baby." (Lesley laughs) So, but I like this one because it actually says like, on these days, train harder. On these days, don't train as hard. And what I noticed is that the moment I started paying attention to that, I was able to give myself a lot of permission of like, it literally says not to train so hard. So it's okay if you just feel like going for a walk because I'm like, "I just feel like going for a walk. I don't want to go for a run." It's like yeah, because your body just freakin' wants to go for a walk and the and your cycle says I just want to go for a walk right now. And so what's really cool is that if you don't have, if you don't have a doctor that you can call all the time, which I don't. There are some amazing apps and this one is built by females which is im-freakin' important and, and doctors in women's health and so that's the app I use and since I've been using it, my shit shows up on exact day, all the friggin' time. And I'm not surprised. And I have an app that says, "This is what you should be eating right now." Like, "This is a protein you should be eating right now. This is the carbs should be eating right now." And it's when you pay attention to that stuff, even if you especially if you want to have babies someday, this information is important. And if you're beyond having babies, it's still important because it is really part of what makes us feel like ourselves and have that and you not guess so anyways, I love your, I love your BE IT action ... you chose ...Brad Crowell 30:30  Yeah, I just realized that I stole yours. Actually, I read them backwards. So that one's yours and ... (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 30:35  Okay, but it's okay, cuz I'm gonna say, "Listen to your body, the patterns are data." (Brad: Right) So, use an app. If you're ... (Brad: Yeah) I hate math, I really, I literally changed my major. So I didn't have to do statistics. So clearly, I'm not exactly interested in data. (Brad and Lesley laughs) But um,Brad Crowell 30:51  No, you are though that's what you were just talking about what the apps like it tells you, (Lesley: Yeah) when you should eat and what you should eat and when and why?Lesley Logan 30:57  Yeah. But I don't have to analyze it. (Brad: Yeah, yeah) It just tells me. (Brad: Yeah) So ... Brad Crowell 31:00  It really they help you compile the information.Lesley Logan 31:02  I also think ... whether you're male or female, like your body really is telling you something. My mom just Marco Polo me. She's having TMJ. Right? She's got this thing. And and she's like, "Maybe it says, maybe it says, maybe it says." It's like, but there are patterns, (Brad: Yeah) if you write it down, like when I was having digestive health issues. That was the interesting thing about it, it was like, the pattern was a little odd. And we actually thought it was a parasite for a little bit. But when I actually like looked at, when I actually wrote it down and got really, really like into the data of listening to my body, we were able to figure out, "Oh, this is why you're not sleeping. This why I have the period. This is why you are too skinny." (Brad: Yeah) And, and so and all of that was just really affecting my life and probably shortening the years that I have on this planet which I am getting back because I have a mission to complete. So anyways, please don't bury or explain away or shove what your body is telling you into a corner until later. It is ... unless you are a brain surgeon. Like literally, your most stuff can wait til tomorrow, get some sleep, write things down, have (Brad: Yeah) a little journal, have a note on your phone, maybe you dictate it. But take some time to get either support with an app or a person to help you figure out the patterns that you're seeing.Brad Crowell 32:20  And also to the the other action item we were pulling out the BE IT action item was to ask for help when your body seems out of whack. (Lesley: Yeah) And, you know, I know that that's can be a challenge for many people is asking for help. But I think this makes me recall the conversation with Jennifer, Jennifer van Barneveld-Pe.Lesley Logan 32:46  Oh, another Torontoronian...Brad Crowell 32:49  Which is where (Lesley: and they are friends, actually.) I think you heard Jenn Pike on her pod. (Lesley: Yeah, yeah) And basically, Jennifer, we... the question was, "How do you run a company now when you have kids?" And she said, "Oh, I got really good at asking for help." (Lesley: Yeah) And, you know, Jenn Pike said the same thing, "Hey, when I'm, you know, I already know ahead of time when I'm not going to be feeling great," because she's very, you know, she tracks everything very intentionally. So she's like, "Look, during this time, you know, is when I know, I need to be asking for more help." And, and, and I think that, it, I think that having this conversation with a partner is going to demystify it, it's going to change it. And it's going to allow for, you know, your partner to understand like, "Okay, cool, yeah, I can step it up, you know, during this time, and that's actually gonna benefit me, too." (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 33:40  Yeah. And I think that, you know, since we've had her on, because, I mean, we recorded this podcast a while back, we had her on in, I think it was like June or July and set the Agency webinar. And I literally was like, "Okay, I'm, this is the app I'm using, I'm changing this now." And I I know everyone on the team was a little nervous when I was like, "I'm gonna change all of my due dates and everything based on my cycle." But everyone's getting their stuff (Brad: Oh, yeah) on time, (Brad: And we're ahead of time.) with enthusiasm. (Brad: Yeah, yeah) (Lesley laughs) And they and I have also been really honest with them. I said, "I'm really nervous about getting these things done by this date," because of when I'm going to how I'm going to feel and everyone has been able to go, "Okay, what has to get done? (Brad: Yeah.) How do we make this happen? How can we support?" And I'm like, "I don't even feel guilty about that." And I and I think in the past before actually appreciating all of this, I think I might have but y'all asking for help is also actually really freaking cool. It is not a sign of weakness is a sign of strength and power and you cannot be it till you see it, on your own. (Brad: That's true) It makes me think of um, you know, My Cousin Vinnie ... (Brad gasps) the movie. (Brad: Yes) At the very end when he gets really mad at Marisa Tomei, whatever her character's name is, because she helped him with a case she like did something to help with the case. And he's like, "I want to do this first case on my own." She goes, "Oh my God, imagine winning all of your cases." And at the end, you have to say, "Thank you." (Brad and Lesley laughs) Oh my God, what a fucking problem. What a nightmare? And I just think I wish I understood that when I was a child, because that's when my mom loved that movie. But I wish I'd understood that because I think I would have been like, it's actually not a nightmare to ask people for help ... and say thank you. It's usually really freaking cool to not do this alone. And you don't have to do your cycle alone. And you don't have to be it till you see it alone. So, (Brad: That's true) All right. I'm Lesley Logan.And I'm Brad Crowell.Thank you so much for joining... joining us today. We're so grateful you're here. (Brad: Yes) How are you going to use these tips in your life? Let us know by sending a DM to the pod on Instagram. Make sure you tag Jenn Pike. She's got two Ns and myself and let us know and we'll catch you on the next episode.Brad Crowell 35:50  Bye for now.Lesley Logan 35:54  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOUS SEE IT. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 36:27  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 36:38  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 37:03  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Brad & Lesley pull out some of Damari's golden nuggets from our last episode's interview with her, digging into how finances should serve as an affirmation, not a trigger - especially when we allow debt to define us. Debt can be debilitating, managing our credit score is so complicated, we don't walk around with little debt chat bubbles, and more.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:• Lesley's love language• Black Friday Cyber Monday deals... links below• When you focus on something, things happen• Why Lesley picked an S Corp for her business• Damari's last name is a Be It moment• How do we choose our titles as entrepreneurs?• We allow debt to define us• Your credit score is based on how you manage debt• We don't have debt chat bubbles...• Finances should serve as an affirmation, not a triggerBlack Friday/Cyber Monday Deals:• Be It Pod Merch https://lesleylogan.co/boutique• Online Pilates Classes https://onlinepilatesclasses.com• Fitness Business Courses https://profitablepilates.comEpisode References/Links• Damari's website https://www.damarigold.com/• The Messy Middle: Finding Your Way Through the Hardest and Most Crucial Part of Any Bold Venture by Scott Belsky https://amzn.to/3DR8ql7If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:01  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect Let's get started.Lesley Logan 0:45  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad and I are going to dig into the rich convo I had with Damari Gold in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now, go back, listen to that one and then come back and join us. You know ... I don't even know how people are listening to these in which order but I am seeing all the different loves you have episode 34, made someone laugh out loud many times that makes me happy. (Lesley laughs) So you know, whichever order ...Brad Crowell 1:18  34 with Jessica Burgio that's a recap.Lesley Logan 1:20  ... I know, I know the evens are recaps, so here we are. So y'all, Happy Thanksgiving for those ... (Brad: Happy Thanksgiving.) If you're listening to this, then right now whether it's Thanksgiving for you or not, I'm just so grateful for you. I know I said it last week in Episode 50. (Brad: What?) But I really am and it was really fun to celebrate the 50th episode because I got to see a lot more love for the pod and I'm just words of affirmation is my love language. So thank you so much, but because it is Thanksgiving. (Brrr brrr brrrrr)Brad Crowell 1:57  What is that mean?Lesley Logan 1:58  Oh, it's like a little like, drumroll. (Lesley table drumming)Brad Crowell 2:00  Oh, I thought you're trying to be Cardi B for a second. (Brad and Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 2:05  That's Cardi B. (Brad: Yeah) Cardi B is a little one. A drumroll is longer. (Brrrrrrrr)Lesley Logan 2:09  Gotcha. Yeah. (Lesley: I have no idea. That's why I ...) Exciting news. And if you're on our email list, you already are aware (Lesley: Things are on sale.) Starting on Friday the 29th, so the day after Thanksgiving. (Lesley: Yeah, we ...) For only four days we're just gonna do Friday, Saturday Sunday, Monday closes Monday night.Lesley Logan 2:26  We are doing, if you're watching it on YouTube and you just saw everything shake, Gaia is really weird today. Ah ...Brad Crowell 2:35  She threw herself into the table. (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 2:37  I know she also, y'all she loves plastic bottles and today she decided that a can in the trashcan was a plastic bottle. So I do think her eyesight is going ... (Brad: Oh geez.) But anyways, let's go back to these deals. (Brad: Yes.) Um, so on our sites, check out the notes below. We have different amazing deals for different things. So (Brad: Yes) for our Pilates teacher ...Brad Crowell 2:55  We're bringing Las Vegas possible.Lesley Logan 2:57  Yeah. Well, here we go. Well specifics, if you're a teacher hit a Profitable Pilates because good shit is happening with the courses, (Brad: Yeah) you're welcome. (Brad: Yeah) You are welcome. This is the best sale I've ever done on those courses. I don't want to hear it. Just go by them, have fun. I want you to change your business. (Brad: Yeah.) If you are Pilates levah, there's some workshops and some legacy stuff. So get your ass over there and ...Brad Crowell 3:24  At onlinepilatesclasses.com ... YesLesley Logan 3:25  And then over at lesleylogan.coLesley Logan 3:29  Yeah. We got BE IT pod merch.Lesley Logan 3:31  Cuz you know what? You should dress up like me. (Lesley laughs) Also ...Brad Crowell 3:35  And it's on sale right now, (Lesley: It's on sale.) for tomorrow til 29th.Lesley Logan 3:39  It's on sale. And here's the thing. We are old school, elder millennials. I'm so sorry. I do not like that the sales are starting earlier and earlier every year. No ...Brad Crowell 3:48  Yeah, I'm with you (Lesley: I'm in protest ...) in being against to that.Lesley Logan 3:51  I'm in protest. And so this is how I'm showing my protest.Lesley Logan 3:54  It's not Black Friday, Cyber Monday month. (Lesley: No) It's Blackfri-day, Cybermon-day. (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 4:00  Yeah. And just and then what the days in between where, you know, those are your ... (Brad: We are giving you the weekend.) Those are your bonuses. Now, I don't want to hear it when I start celebrating my birthday month. That is true. (Brad laughs) That is real. But it doesn't mean tons of sales in your inbox every frickin' day. So go, go ... go stock up and all the things that make your life better because I'm really excited about it and ... (Brad: Heck yea) Happy Thanksgiving. Okay.Brad Crowell 4:28  All right.Lesley Logan 4:29  So, we, instead of an audience question this week, I actually wanted to share a couple things. I was just doing a coaching call with one of our agency members and she had listened to the episode with Dr. Bender. And when Dr. Bender shared that she umm she has like physical things around for like, just by bringing in the things she wanted. So for example, she wanted money to be around her always ...Lesley Logan 5:02  This is episode 41 with (Lesley: Yeah) Dr. Kelly Bender.Lesley Logan 5:05  So, listen to this. So this is episode 52? (Brad: Yeah.) Okay. So 11 episodes ago, my client listened to the BE IT item from Dr. Bender. And she all... she did what Dr. Bender did. So Dr. Bender had put two $100 bills on a table in her house with a crystal and amethyst crystal on it. And like, you know, she's like, "... Money is around me, flows to me easily." And this client was like, "Okay, I'm going to do it." So she's like, "How much money should I put there?" So she is like, "I'm gonna put the same amount of money as a new client package." So she put three $100 bills in her desk drawer. And she's like, "I don't have any crystals but I had this rock, and I have a bracelet of other crystals. And my mom would collect these like half dollars. And so I put that on there." And she's like, "I've had four new clients for in 11 episodes." That's like three weeks. (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 6:02  Like six weeks. Yeah. (Lesley: Oh) Five and a half weeks.Lesley Logan 6:05  Five ... whatever. That's still a new client a week, basically.Brad Crowell 6:08  Oh, it's amazing.Lesley Logan 6:09  It's amazing.Brad Crowell 6:09  I'm not taking away from her (Lesely: So ...) for her achievement at all. I think it's really amazing.Lesley Logan 6:13  So y'all, um, I'm not answering questions, because I'm just sell... to I just want to share with you if you do these BE IT action items. Life is like happening for you.Lesley Logan 6:24  Yeah, I just, I just kind of need to comment because I'm not like, like the overly "woowoo." But I would guess that your client opened the drawer and saw that in there. And it was a consistent reminder. And that kept bringing the idea of getting new clients to the top of her mind. And that's why because she's focused on it brings it you know, you're doing it, (Lesley: Yeah) you're, you're you're going after your you know, you're actually focusing on it. (Lesley: Right) So, (Lesley: Yeah) I absolutely believe that. You know what, when we focus on something things happen. And that's just a real easy physical reminder that you can't miss.Lesley Logan 7:02  Yeah, so anyways, next week, maybe we'll answer a question, or maybe we'll share another win... You know, we're gonna call them bold moments. And maybe so either (Brad: It's a bold moment) we're gonna answer question, or we're gonna ans... we're gonna share a bold moment from our BE IT listeners. And that could be you. So share that with me.Brad Crowell 7:17  Love that.Lesley Logan 7:18  Okay.Brad Crowell 7:20  I'm gonna write that down, "Our first bold moment." (Lesley: Okay.) Oh, yeah. (Lesley: Woo)Lesley Logan 7:27  I had another one, but it's on I screenshot it and I don't I don't know where it is. But someone DM me a bold moment and I need to find it. And I'll maybe I'll share it next week.Brad Crowell 7:37  We'll bring it back.Lesley Logan 7:38  ... It'll be a segue. You know what, we have a new producer, and that's going to be her job. (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 7:42  That's true. We have a producer. We hired a producer. (Lesley: I know.) It was really amazing and exciting. I just spent a bunch of time on zoom with her this morning.Lesley Logan 7:51  I like her glasses.Lesley Logan 7:54  Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, she she's she's rad. Her name is Amanda. She does, she has no idea that we're talking about her on the pod.Lesley Logan 8:01  We have to change our outro.Brad Crowell 8:03  Oh, yeah, we got to do all the things. (Lesley: Oh, shoot.) Yeah, no, it's official. (Lesley: Well, she can task us with that) By the time you listen to this, we'll have a new ... (Lesley laughs) maybe we'll have another outro. Well, very soon. (Lesley: Very soon.) Things are gonna change. It's exciting. (Lesley: It's exciting) We're very happy about it. (Lesley: Yeah.) Anyway. (Lesley: Okay.) Okay, now let's talk about the Damari Gold.Lesley Logan 8:22  I love it.Brad Crowell 8:23  Damari Gold is a tax accountant who left the corporate world to open her beach side firm. Her business and her clients are her life. She hates the way we collectively define success and allow debt to stop us in our tracks. And she works with her clients to battle that mentality, creating space for messy beginnings. I really enjoyed your conversation with her. It's actually a lot of fun. (Lesley: Yeah) She, you know, she's gone to school, started working, got her Masters, was working again, decided she actually didn't like working for people. And that's when she wanted to go start her own thing. And then she said she struggled with starting on a thing because she just didn't pull the trigger. And then like couple years in, she finally did. And now she's out on her own. You know, (Sorry, I almost pulled my headphones off.) (Brad and Lesley laughs) Now she's on her own. And and, you know, doing accounting, and what I what I loved about this conversation was that she's anything but a typical accountant, at least from this conversation that ... (Lesley: Oh my God, she isn't) and it was a lot of fun.Lesley Logan 9:37  Or maybe she is and they're all lying to us. (Brad laughs) But like I just loved how honest she was about even her own financial status and life and things like that. (Brad: Sure) Because I think we think of accountants. I mean, your parents are accountants, if I'm not ... (Brad: My dad is) your dad is. (Brad: Yeah) He's like really good with money. (Brad: Yeah. Yes) And so I just think accountants are just like really good with money and like our CPA in California, oh my God, like he scared me. I was like, I, I don't even know, like, he didn't scare me. He's actually so lovely. And he took such good care of us. But like, I'm not even kidding. Like, I ...Lesley Logan 10:11  No. His higher level thinking about money. It was like so different than the way that we conceptualize and it was, it was intimidating. I'm not gonna lie. Lesley Logan 10:11  No, no, he called me into his office. And I was like, "I have to go to my CPA's office."Brad Crowell 10:22  It's like being sent to the principal.Lesley Logan 10:23  I know, he like email me. He's like, "Lesley, we need to have a meeting." I was like, "Oh my God." And he like, sat me down for an hour and explained to me how I couldn't keep doing business the way I was doing business as a sole proprietor. And I needed to choose to be ... he like he's like, "You have to choose. Are you going to be LLC or you're going to be an S Corp?" And it was really funny, because it was like, right before you proposed to me, and he's like, "Well, when your LLC you need to have like these two people. But if your S Corp, you could be you or these other things." And I said, "Well, I think I'm, think I'm going to be an S Corp thing, because it's just me and I'm just dating someone right now. So like, who's gonna be my partner in this?" Ahh! And then you ...Brad Crowell 11:00  That's why you pick the S Corp? (Lesley: I know) (Lesley laughs) That's unbelievable.Lesley Logan 11:05  He also said that S Corps (Brad laughs) have ahh, gonna have more write offs, because corporations just have more bills. So I was like, "Great."Brad Crowell 11:13  I love the logic behind that, that is ... (Lesley laughs) amazing.Lesley Logan 11:17  But he said S Corps have, you know, they have more bills. So people like that the auditing is different. And I was like, "Okay, that also sounds less scary. So let's go that way." (Brad and Lesley laughs) Anyways, but I really loved Damari back to the who we are recapping because she, it's like, it's all I felt like if I became an accountant. Right? Like, not that I would, but like, I feel like we have similar personalities and (Brad: Yeah) similar outlooks on life. And so anyways, it's all about me. Right? And she was just fabulous. So anyways,Lesley Logan 11:50  That's awesome. Yeah. So so well, actually, so so she had a whole bunch of things that she went through, actually, the conversation flowed pretty well. (Lesley: Thank you) (Lesley laughs) Yeah, I mean, from one story to the next. It just kept rolling. But you had you had one specific thing you're (Lesley: Oh, like ...) very excited about.Lesley Logan 12:12  ... hands down. Can we just talk about how Be It Till You See It is this? Her name, I thought, gosh, so cool. Her name is Damari Gold. (Dog barks) And she's the Gold Standard Accounting or whatever. And like, you know, I just thought like, "That's amazing." Like, she's so lucky to be named Damari Gold, because then she kept the Gold Standard Accounting or whatever. And so when I asked her, she's like, "Oh, no, I, that's my stage name." (Lesley laughs) I was like, "That is so Be It Till You See It." Like that, y'all like, sometimes you have to name yourself or name your thing, like what you want it to be. And so she did that. And now it's, you know, it's, it's her name, and I freaking love it. So anyways.Lesley Logan 12:25  Yeah. That is ... she definitely has a full story about how she came up with it. And it's her favorite color and all these other things. And at the end, she was like, "Well, Gold Standard Accounting. I think I'm just gonna call myself, Damari Gold." (Lesley: Yeah.) And that's what she's doing. (Lesley: Yeah.) So and it flows and it sounds baller.Lesley Logan 13:15  It sounds so... it sounds so baller. (Brad: Yeah) I mean, you know ...Lesley Logan 13:18  But I think that, you know, let's look at it from the BE IT perspective. We talked about this, I can't remember exactly one. But it was like, way back in the beginning. We talked about right, creating your own title. (Lesley: Oh, yeah.) You know, and how maybe you have been defining yourself as, quote/unquote, "Just a Pilates teacher," you know, (Lesley: Yeah) which I think is a terrible way to define ourselves, because we're not "just" anything. (Lesley: We're not just anything). But let's just say you're a Pilates teacher, what if instead, you were a movement liberator. (Lesley: Ooh) Ooh, you know or ...Lesley Logan 13:54  Look at the person pulling out the thesaurus. (Brad and Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 13:57  You know, or, you know, I think that there is so much creativity that can be had in how we define ourselves. And, you know, before we were obviously talking about, like, the title that we have adopted, but I think it's amazing that she changed her name to fit with the you know, who she is, when she's, you know, working her business. (Lesley: Yeah) I thought that was great.Lesley Logan 14:22  100%. Well, speaking of things you love, what did you ... what what is, what did you love?Lesley Logan 14:28  Yeah, okay, so this was profound. And (Lesley: Ooh) I knew this was rich. Hmm. (Lesley: Rich) So she, she basically said debt ... We allow debt to define us. We allow debt to stop us. We allow debt to be this big, massive, scary mountain that we can't function when there's debt and we are also sold with this, you know, just the way that our our society works and capitalism and all the things. We're sold this idea that, you know, "Being debt free is the only way to be." (Lesley: Oh my God) You know, and ... (Lesley: Y'all, it's like ...) Here's, here's my, here's my thing. Clearly, being debt free is a positive thing. I'm not saying that it's not. I'm not saying that you should just incurred that you know, like create debt for that sake. No, that's stupid. But what I am saying is that the difference of you being in debt and you being out of debt, actually, it's, it's this weird definition that we have for ourselves. Why would being out, out of debt.... does that make you, like... (Lesley: Doesn't make you a better person)... a freer person? A better person? (Lesley: No.) A better person and better business owner. A better whatever? No, it's just actually it's an accomplishment for sure. I'm not saying that it's not. But I, I don't think that, like, we're gonna have this, this like life changing experience, the day that we finished paying off our debt. It's gonna be a celebration in a moment, (Lesley: Oh, my God) but life is still gonna continue the way that life was.Lesley Logan 16:05  Do you remember when I paid off my student loans?Brad Crowell 16:07  Yeah, I remember you going, "Oh, shit. (Lesley: I paid them off.) I paid them off."Lesley Logan 16:11  There was no freaking glitter, confetti, balloons. Lesley Logan 16:15  Yeah, it was like seven o'clock, I was making dinner.Lesley Logan 16:17  I know, I got this email that says, "You pay, you made your last payment." And I was like, "That's it. That's what it feels like." (Brad: That's what it feels like) I was the same person. (Brad: Congratulations, Babe!) Congratulate... but the point is, is like, I literally did not change from before that email to after that email. And ...Lesley Logan 16:35  Yeah. The difference was, you had a couple hundred dollars more in your bank account each month (Lesley: Yeah) which, "Hey, that's a win."Lesley Logan 16:40  That's a win, but it doesn't... (Brad: It's huge win for sure.) It doesn't define you as a per... human being. And I also just want to say, I don't know how it works in different countries, but here in the States, your credit score is based on how you manage debt. (Brad: Yeah) And so being debt free doesn't actually make you a better person to give a house loan to. (Brad: Right) And so it's a stupid game, and we're all taught like, "Oh, my God, if you have debt, it's not great." And I grew up that way. I grew up in a household where there's a lot of debt, a lot of bill collectors calling, it's a really sucky situation to be in. (Brad: Sure.) And I saw what it did with my parents and what they how they felt about themselves, and how they showed up and how they, they how they felt in their marriage and how they felt as parents. And the reality is, is that like, I don't think I would have had different childhood. Like, the amount of money that was my childhood was not what made my childhood good or bad. The stress of, of how they may debt define them, that ... (Brad: That affect each other) affected me, that affected me, but (Brad: Yeah) like, you know, I didn't, who knows what you have versus what someone else has have. I don't know as a kid. So I'm just saying, I really ...Lesley Logan 17:48  It's not until you're in middle school in high school, that you're like, "Oh, they bought the bling jeans and I didn't get to buy the bling jeans." (Lesley: Yeah) But like growing up, I'm the same way my parents were incredibly frugal. And, you know, I mean, my mom would rather take me to the consignment shop and buy, you know, 10 pair of $8 jeans than one pair of $80 jeans. Like that's just the way that I grew up. So totally, I totally understand that. And I think that we allow this, this, like, I think that it becomes like a skeleton in our closet. And it becomes this, like, this, this, like this, this fear that like sits in our gut that like, "Oh, I have debt like if I if I try anything right now I could really like screw us all over because I still have debt" in addition to whatever it is that you want to go do. And I I don't want that for you. That's not reality. (Lesley: No) You know, we do obviously we have bills to pay, we got to, we got to make sure we can meet those, those requirements. But you know, I and I do think that it's important to be paying more than your debt balance. Like if you don't want to pay the minimums (Lesley: Yeah) it's just like a never ending cycle. But if we let no but I think what you said on the last episode, which I loved was it's not like we walk around with a chat bubble hovering over us that says, "Haha. Brad still has school debt because guess what? (Lesley: Right) Brad still does have school debt." You know, and "Brad's gonna have school debt for another 10 years."Lesley Logan 19:25  Well, yeah, or I'm just gonna keep praying that they go federal loans go away. But anyway. (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 20:14  Right. But but it's but but because ... it sound like I advertise that right. So nobody needs to know that.Lesley Logan 19:37  And no one needs to know that but also like, it's a little freeing when you share it because it's like that skeletons out of the closet. But at this, it doesn't change who you are, and unless you let it. So (Brad: Right) if you I see this all the time in the people that I coach in the industry, I see people go, "I don't have enough money. I can't do that. I can't do it." And so then they're like sit in the back of the room or they feel like they can't be part of this group or the join this thing. And it's (Brad: Yeah) like, actually, like, you are an amazing human being already. And yeah, there's and then underneath that you have like, "Amazingness, amazingness, amazingness. Oh, also another thing is that debt." But that doesn't actually define you. It's just another piece of inventory. You also have a couch, you also have a car, you also have a Cadillac like you don't have. It's not like personality trait debt that (Brad: Yeah) doesn't... If you look at pe... personality traits or what makes a good human being, you don't see debt free on that list.Lesley Logan 20:32  Yeah. And I do think that, you know, the, you obviously want to be responsible with the debt that you have and the money that you have. But if you go look at businesses, (Lesley: Oh, my God) who are growing and value that millions and billions of dollars, they also carry debt, there is actually part of the game is that, you know, now I'm not saying credit card debt is to your benefit all the time. But you know, there, it's just a different perspective, we've been sold this story that, "You have to be debt free," and that's not necessarily the truth.Lesley Logan 21:05  Yeah, I mean, it'd be nice, but it's not going to again, I promise you, when you are debt free, no one is going to show up with confetti and glitter and balloons. There's not gonna be a frickin' party for you. It's gonna feel the exact same. You'll just have more money in your bank account. (Brad laughs) So be the person you want to be, (Brad: Yeah) Till you see the debt, be free. Boom! (Brad: We'll take that.) (Lesley laughs) Okay, well, look, no one's offering (Brad: Yeah) a marketing job over here. It's fine. All right.Lesley Logan 21:34  All right, (Lesley: Here we go.) All right. All right. So finally, let's talk about the BE IT action items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Damari Gold?Lesley Logan 21:47  Oh, well, here it is. WaitLesley Logan 21:49  Yeah. I'm gonna jump ... (Lesley: You're go in first) I'm gonna jump in. (Lesley laughs) I think we swapped ours out here. Um ...Lesley Logan 21:55  No, I think we're good. I still, I got mine.Lesley Logan 21:57  Okay. So basically, (Lesley laugsh) basically, one thing she said at the very end of the interview was, "To put your vision out there." You know, I think for her, she was speaking from this very personally, because she was talking about how she wanted to do this, start her own business, she wanted to what she didn't, she wanted to want she didn't, it took a couple years. And, and she started to tell her clients or her friends, she started like, kind of on the side, "This is what's gonna happen, this is where it's gonna be, this is how it's gonna be," you know and then again, it's kind of like the money. You know, the crystals in your top drawer, where when you pull open your door to pull out your socks, you see that and you go, "Right? New clients, new clients, new clients." In this case, she's putting the vision out there, because you're (A) creating vulnerability. Right? You're you're making yourself vulnerable to other people, (B) you're consistently reminding yourself and those people are going to be looking at you like, "Is she going to do what she says?" you know, and (Lesley: Yeah) so it helps you stay focused, stay on track to get to where you want to be.Lesley Logan 23:04  Well, before we started this podcast, I was telling people, "I'm started a podcast." (Brad: Yeah, for like a year.) Yeah. "I'm started a podcast. I'm started a podcast." And then we recorded for four months before the pod came out. (Brad: Yup) But I started a podcast, but like, (Brad: Oh yeah) put it out there. But um, you know that even our even this house, this house, we knew this was our house, because we put the vision out there. No, maybe we didn't blast it on Instagram. Ve... most people were surprised we moved but like, our coach knew, the people in our group knew, (Brad: Yeah) they we had told them very specifically, we are looking for a house with this many rooms, with this much space, with this much this, it's gonna cost us this much. Put it out there. And then it was like when I when it came across my emails like, "Oh, this is this is a vision." (Brad: That's the one. Yeah) So yeah, I'm big on that, y'all, put it out there. Okay, my biggest takeaway is "Become more aware of how you're being supported with your goal." And I'm going to add a little bit to this, I think because I'm long winded. So first of all, awareness is the first step in everything, okay? And if you are like most human beings, you are very aware of how you're not being supported or how you're not working towards your goal or what you didn't get done. But very, very few, very, very rarely do we acknowledge, like what we did do, what is going well, who is supporting us, what is supporting us? And so I think it's really important that maybe at the end of each day, you just take a moment to think about like, the goal you're working towards and what did happen. So like maybe ...Lesley Logan 24:50  Maybe wins, micro wins.Lesley Logan 24:40  Micro wins (micro wins are so important.) Micro wins are gonna like really propel you. Oh my God, I'm reading the book, "Messy Middle." (Brad: Yeah. The Messy Middle) And like most of you need to make sure that your wins carry through because there's like highs and lows, highs and lows, (Brad: Yeah) highs and lows. FIrSo the other thing is is like in that awareness, get as much clarity as possible around the things that are in your goals. So like what we talked about with Brad's takeaway with put your vision out there. We literally wrote down, like, "How many rooms?" Okay. (Brad: Yeah) And when I hear people say things like, since we're going to talk about Damari Gold and we're talking about money, I hear people say that "Money is an obstacle." And I say, "How much money do you need?" I don't know. Awareness is so key. If you're not aware of how much money you need for your goal to happen. (Brad: Yeah) You're always gonna say that money is the obstacle. But what if you just need $500? You know, like, maybe you need $5,000, maybe $500,000. But have that awareness because it is actually going to help you achieve the things you're working towards. You have to really get clarity around that.Brad Crowell 25:49  You know, I'm going to add on to this (Lesley: Oh keep adding, were just gonna keep layering) ... another talking point that she said that we didn't bring up (Lesley: Seven layer cake.) (Lesley laughs) Yeah. She said that finances should serve as an affirmation, not as a trigger. (Lesley: Oh, I forgot about.) Yeah, that was like, that was that was a golden nugget right there that that was a Damari Gold nugget right there. (Lesley: Ooh) Ah. (Brad laughs)Lesley Logan 26:12  And because we live in Vegas near the Golden Nugget.Lesley Logan 26:14  Golden Nugget. (Lesley laughs) All the things so so you know, you just said that ... What you just said made me think of that because I do think that we, you know, I for years, I was afraid to look at my bank account. It was just weird denial like thing where I was like, "Okay, if I only spent $6, I hope I'm sure there's going to be enough money in there. You know, and I would buy lunch or whatever." And and like, but I would just never actually log in and look at the actual total. And it like, I don't know, like, somehow I thought I was gonna be okay, if I ignored it. I don't know. Weird thing, right? Because ... (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 26:53  I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are like, "Oh, that's me, too."Lesley Logan 26:56  Oh, yeah. No, I don't think that I was alone in that. And that's like, people avoid, I avoided and I thought that by avoiding it would make things okay ... wrong. I would then only deal with it when I bounced a check or my credit card, or my debit card would get declined. And then the now I'm in the hole because they charge you 35 bucks. Right? So, you know, this was this was after college and and when I was like hustling, trying to get any kind of work. And but but but money became this fearful thing. And the only way to to get like dig into that and change it is to actually embrace it head on. Right? And that's kind of what Damari was talking about finances should serve as an affirmation, not as a trigger. The affirmation, being, "I haven't ... I have $6 to buy my lunch. You know, I know because it looked at my damn bank account. And I can see that I have $1,000 in there. Yes, I can buy lunch for $6." As opposed to "I only have $1,000 in there. (Aaaahhh freakout session.) I (Lesley: Yeah) can't buy lunch for $6." (Lesley: Yeah) Right? So it says definite, you know, you're it's not something that you just easily do. But, but it's something to work on.Lesley Logan 28:08  We should call this a gold conversation. This conversation is gold our Aussies, they would have fuckin' loved it. They would loved it. (Brad laughs)Brad Crowell 28:15  Yeah, it's a gold convo.Lesley Logan 28:16  I got to add legend into a conversation, (Brad: Yeah right) then they'll be like, "What?" Well, um, gosh. I'm Lesley Logan.Brad Crowell 28:26  And I'm Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 28:27  Thank you so much for joining us today. (Brad: Yeah) We are so freaking grateful you're here. How are you to use these tips in your life? Let us know by sending us a DM to the pod on Instagram and we'll catch you in the next episode. Until then, Be It Till You See It.Brad Crowell 28:41  Bye for now. Lesley Logan 28:44  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!Lesley Logan 29:12  'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Lesley Logan 29:16  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 29:24  Kevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Lesley Logan 29:30  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 29:38  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Lesley Logan 29:50  And the Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Embracing peak suffering with William England In this episode of the CrossLead podcast, host David Silverman speaks with William England, Partner and Chief Investment Officer of Walleye Capital Partners, and world-champion rower who raced for Princeton, Oxford, and the US national team.They focus on lessons Will learned in crew teams and how those lessons translate to managing a high-growth investment firm. William talks about Walleye Capital's operating model, structure, and culture and how they have managed through the last 18 months. He also discusses personal leadership philosophies, his weaknesses, and thoughts on personal development as a senior executive.“Greatest enlightenment comes after peak suffering.” Resources Want to discuss some of these topics directly with Dave? Join the CrossLead LinkedIn Group. Episode Transcript Welcome to the CrossLead podcast. I’m your host, Dave Silverman at CrossLead, we exist to help teams, individuals achieve and sustain optimal performance. In today’s episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Will England, who was a partner and the chief investment officer of Walleye Capital as chief investment officer, Will England oversees internal and external strategy allocations and is responsible for risk management. He earned a Bachelor of Science and Operations Research and Financial Engineering from Princeton and a master’s degree in mathematics and computational finance from Oxford. Throughout his time at Princeton, Oxford Will England was an accomplished rower appearing in multiple world championships for the United States national team and winning the Oxford, Cambridge poses  Today we talk about lessons we’ll learn as a world and collegiate champion rower and how he’s applied those lessons to life in business. We talk about why capitals operating model and why decentralization is critical for their success. We talk about the impact of meme stocks encoded on their investment fundamentals and how they’ve adapted in the face of change. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoy the conversation about. All right, well, thanks so much for making time today. I’d love to introduce you to the audience and maybe just have you talk about your background a little bit if you’d be comfortable  Sure  Like starting from the beginning  Yeah, yeah, take take us back, you know, through your life, sort of where you’re from and how you got to the position you’re at today  So I like to say I grew up in a town that time forgot a little town called. Marblehead, Massachusetts, north of Boston, and it was the 10th largest town in the first census in 1790, and I don’t think it’s changed very much since then  It’s kind of one of those places where if you don’t wear boat shoes, you’re kind of shunned. So, like, not in the normal world at all. But yeah  That’s where I started. And I sort of break my life down into four stages and not all of which are necessarily obviously connected, but there is a sort of a logic to it and a flow in hindsight  So as I said, I grew up in this little town where. It’s very sheltered upbringing. I wasn’t like flying around on jets, but you know, I had pretty much an idealistic way to grow up, frankly  And sort of the first part of my life, which I’d say up until the end of eighth grade, I  I wouldn’t describe myself as employed as it was now. Frankly, I I didn’t work very hard  I was fairly lazy, a little bit fat. I had a lot of raw talent  Unrealistically, realistically  Both in regards to academics and athletics, but just really didn’t ever have to work that hard because of, you know, that sort of situation  And that sort of seemed fine. And something happened in eighth grade. It wasn’t like  This one died. It wasn’t any terrible like that, but for me, very formative time in my life. So in that, in my world, in that frankly part of the part of the country and how I grew up, everyone, you know, it goes to turn not everyone, but a lot of people will go to boarding school and that’s sort of what my whole family died. My sister, you know, it’s very much like playing college is a very difficult school to get into and you just sort of apply. And it just sort of what I what I assume would happen  And what happened in eighth grade is because  I never really worked hard and frankly, wasn’t that special  I actually didn’t like the first time  When I didn’t achieve a goal that I had, and it was really embarrassing and it sucked. And in hindsight, it’s like, Okay, it’s not the end of the world, but for me, being in eighth grade, it was just sort of terrible  And so something in me kind of really snapped, and I never wanted to feel that way again. And that was really  When I said, OK, I’m never going to not be absolutely dedicated to what I’m trying to achieve, as you know, a 14 year old kid. And so the rest that year and next year, I got basically an AA or an A-plus in every single class I took  I started to work out and learn about fitness and sort of develop some of the core traits that still define me today and everything sort of  Worked out. And the next year I applied and come to exactly where we wanted to go and  See NF going there as as a sophomore instead of as a freshman .Yeah, yeah, exactly. And again, there’s sort of everything else that I went to Andover  Which is a, you know, very, very old elite status school  Yeah  But really interesting too, because it is very difficult  To get into and or there are exceptions to this. Generally speaking, it is really just around very smart people and pushed very, very, very hard and then actually end over from an academic sense is much more challenging there  I went to college or grad school  But yeah, I went there as a sophomore and sort of went a little bit of  My shoulder because I hadn’t gone in the previous year. And it’s not typical for somebody on as a sophomore. And I was just  Like, You know, that next phase of my life, I’d say  Was, you know, when I went from south in your nice gold’s all the way through the grad school or sort of transition from I was in my growing up had been this sort of lazy, not cool. Like I said, Well, the fat kid, you know, like this was very successful growing  I did super well in school. It’s kind of this combination of like a, you know, a jock and a super nerd and was just really successful in all sorts of various different things, probably  To my  Detriment at certain points, because I was probably a bit of a dick after  Some things. But that’s sort of the very formative time in my life  I did start rowing in high school  What drew you to rowing? What brought you to rowing? Just like to suffer?Yeah, no. So actually, I resisted doing it for a while  Because my sister wrote, as well as just a couple years older, me or very competitive with each other, among other things, and I was like, I don’t I’m not doing the stupid fucking sport. You just said  That’s just really dumb. I finally was like, Well, you might actually be really good at it, so why don’t  You just sit down?So I actually didn’t start  Until my junior year  In high school, which is, you know, relatively late  For any sport because I was six years old by then. Yeah. And there’s  This thing called the ERG  Which is like this stationary torture device where you sit. Down and you just pull on something until you pass out. I mean  That’s basically if you’re super  Good at that with a little bit of coaching over the years, you’re just going to be really good at rowing. And then as you get higher and higher like genetics matter and all sorts of things like that  But rowing is this amazing sport because probably more so than any other sport that I can think of, how well you do is directly correlated to what  You put into it. You know, maybe weightlifting is like that to some extent  Yeah, but but very much correlated. So I just fell in love with it immediately, and I went from never having tried the sport  To three or four months later, had the best scores on the team and made the top boat and and really just kind of got obsessed. So I don’t know, I had a natural affinity for for rowing. I still wasn’t that good because it does take a little bit of time to to be very, you know, competitive on that level  But when I got  To college, especially my freshman year of the summer before my freshman year, I spent some time and really thinking about how to how to train on my own, which is a huge part of being successful as sort of a sport is that, you know, a lot of people could sit down over coaches yelling at you and saying, you know, just pulling the fucking handles hard as you can do that, but actually being able to do it by yourself and be intelligent about how to design your own training program. That’s, you know, at some point really separates people  Oh, interesting. Yeah, it’s very thoughtful  Yeah. So I I spent some time doing that  Before I went to college. And then, you know, my freshman year, I got a lot better, you know, and that wasn’t just one better than the guys. Most of the guys around me on my team, but it sort of, you know, very competitive on a national level  You had gotten a lot better  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, again, just very good for learning about work ethic. And I mean, there’s all I  Could talk for a long time about rowing. I talked to the people at work now, but all my stories and rowing  But it’s certainly not the only thing that provides sailing lessons for  Life, but, you know, very sort of obvious and transferable images from from rowing that apply to a lot of what we do. So  So anyway, so I it does go back to  What I saying before as far as figuring out just the benefits, frankly, of of. I would say extreme discipline, but being as disciplined as possible. That’s definitely true in academics as I’ve went through in rowing. So I was fortunate to be able to find and then have the opportunity to to really focus on those activities and wassuccessful to hang out and had a great time. Just really identifying and sort of both of those domains. So when I was  And it was somewhat  Extreme when I say it was like the super nerdy jock or like in in college, I was an engineering major as a particular major to where we went sort of combining engineering, mathematics, economics. But, you know, pretty, pretty intense academically, very different group of people than those that I was sort of spending their time on the riverwith. And then when I went to grad school, I went to Oxford for grad school and originally to do a Ph.D. in math, which is like, really weird for someone that like sports, but very true to me at the same time  one of the reasons why I also went there and was around this thing called the Oxford Cambridge Boat Race, which is one of the oldest  Legendary race right in the world  Yeah, and  It attracts people that, like me, had wrote for their national teams and went to the Olympics and World Championships and all that. So it’s very, very elite level, which is just amazing experience. The first thing worked out well, so  You know, through that basically  So you represented Oxford in that in that match?Yeah, I was  I rode for Oxford. I was the start of of of our trip and we were we won by a lot  Which was just  That  This was an amazing experience in all the ways  I mean, maybe I’ll come back to that as I can  But that’s sort of how to define that, that chapter of my life. And then after grad school and when I said, I’m going to  Stop rowing at that point, I’d I’d done everything except go to the Olympics. I didn’t want to just row and sort of timelines. And as far as when I was in the Olympic cycle, it wasn’t very conducive. Obviously, I just four years is doing that, which is not resistant  There was wasn’t something  I want to do. So I went out to the real world and got my ass kicked. And that’s sort of  You know, what I’d say is the third sort of wilderness phase of my life. Frankly  I don’t know how to  Explain to, you know, people in their early twenties when they’re finishing college or grad school or whatever it is, when they’re coming out of the cocoon  If you know what I mean, the like you’re 20 fucking suck. Like you’re at the bottom again. You really don’t know shit, no matter how smart you  Are, like, you just don’t have the experience and the judgment  And there’s all sorts of  Examples of this sort of in the business world, someone from from your background where  Basically you do just  Need to be humbled  I certainly did  It was very useful in hindsight. And so the story there is, you know, I work for a big firm and in finance, you know, my background as a mathematician academically. So work for, you know, big. Hedge fund  Which is interesting intellectually  But frankly, pretty fucking boring. And then I also worked in a private equity venture capital for for a period of time and just to get some sort of broad experience. And you know, that was super interesting, but I was like, Oh my God, I’m like, I have a lot to learn, basically  And then also in those periods, you know, there was sort of the process of sort of iterating towards my career, my current life and as far as, you know, figuring out exactly what I wanted to do in my career, throwing out what I thought that I was necessarily uniquely qualified to do  But so where some of my relative strengths lie, which is super important? And I just sort of other aspects of life, like being my wife and figure out where going you live. You know, for me, that was effectively in my my late twenties  That’s sort of what I sort of define as the third phase of my life  And the fourth is where I am now  I’m only 36 and so not not super old by any means, although my, my parents and my wife basically say that I’ve been like a 50 year old trapped in a younger man’s life  You know? And so now, you know  I’m sort various different labels that I think are appropriate. You know, whether it’s a husband, father of two kids, two little boys that you know, the most important thing in my life, you know, but also leading leading a company and investment company to which is slightly different than leading a quote unquote normal company  So, you know, you know, investor and and we’re very much in search of what we do about sort of the center of the hedge fund world and by design, we sort of even our business itself as a hub and spoke model  So I’m at the at the center of that. So  So those are  Kind of where I am now and all the experiences that have before that have sort of sort of coalesced into all the things that that make me me  So I want to go back to to one point on the the humbling experience. I think that’s interesting and relevant. And then and then spend a little time, if you would, talking about like, what is walleye capital, you know, you know, how are you different than other hedge funds?I’d be curious about. But before that, if you think about in your twenties, you’re coming out. You’ve been uber successful at this point. And I mean, you’ve gone to Andover and Princeton and now Oxford, and you’re rowing at the national level, competing, you know, world championships  And now you come into business when you say, kick your ass, go back at that and spend a little more time with that. If you what they work for civically was like the eye opening experience for you  Well, that’s a couple of points. Number one, no one gives a shit, and I think that’s really important. That’s great  It opens the door, right? It gets you to be realistic  Like, Yes, absolutely  Those experiences were  Helpful. And yes, I was  Sort of surrounded in a very  Very privileged way, which initially appeared at the time. You know, that initially, like, oh, saying  I have this brand association of being at those places, which is really what they are in a lot of ways. But, you know, also just having a network be exposed people, some of the most important people in my life were those that I met through through those experiences  But then you get out in the real world and you know, you start to say, OK, instead of people giving me credit for my potential abilities, they’re going to start to  Evaluate me on what I can do right now. So what’s the difference between kinetic and potential energy?And also in a way in which you don’t necessarily think of? Because if you’re in an academic environment, you’ve got teachers, you’ve got parents, which are very much your cheerleaders and they’re rooting for you to do well, literally  And so  Yeah, yeah  And then you get into the real world and people like, I fucking hate you do. Do you think you’re just like privilege asshole that went to all these good schools? Like, in a way, subconsciously they’re actually rooting for you to fail  So if you aren’t super good, if you aren’t  Super  Competent, in some ways, you get less leeway. That’s not to say it’s like this is negative by any means, but just actually being totally realistic. And that’s sort of a big part  Of who I am now. It’s just like  Being real and objective and really evaluating things for what they  Are and not telling yourself a story is a big part of that. And then so what I found, it’s like, OK  It’s not about what have you done  In your past? It’s about What can you do now? What can you do well for the environment? Yeah, sure. The fact that you might have been super successful in an athletic endeavor does speak to pride characteristics about discipline and work ethic and all that sort of stuff, but you still need to translate it into another area, whichcan actually be helpful  You know, I know lots of people with gold medals that frankly are pretty fucking useless  The rest of their life because knows it  And so does actually having a bit of an experience of doing that. You know, not fun. Not sort of painful, but like like anything like greatest enlightenment comes after peak suffering, and that’s true in sports. And so that’s why query, isn’t it?And I think  That’s, you know, it’s very much sort of true, true in life  So so did you have a mentor when he got there or just found it was really like, you know, doggy dog  So I do have a mentor  He’s actually my son’s godfather now, who? He was also a 20 years older me who’s basically like my big brother and has sort of been a guiding voice of influence of, you know  Basically saying all these things, which I didn’t even  I believe at the time it’s like, OK  Like you kind of need to go and get  Your ass kicked for a couple of years and then you’ll you’ll start to figure out some stuff. I remember hearing that and not believing that  But yeah, just having  Someone to sort of provide  Perspective on the way has been super helpful for me. And then over the years, I’ve  Had other other mentors, even in my current business. You know, others are senior partners who’s much older and I, you know, very much has aspects of, you know, wisdom which are helpful. And I do think that’s really important  I mean, one of the things that I’ve certainly found over the years going through various different phases of a business as far as the world is really hard to figure out on your own. Having partners or other people that you can talk to is really helpful, even if you are individually very impressive, very much more want todo, you know, have have partners line along for the ride and to be able to come in each other as opposed to doing your own  So that’s probably a good transition to a while. I may maybe spend some time talking about like what is while I capital, how are you different? And then what? I’d love you to use and tie those two themes together, which is, you know, you guys are in a high growth environment now you’re bringing on board  How do you think about taking some of that young potential talent and turning it into kinetic I for you guys?Yeah, sure. So, you know, I like to say a general like we’re a hedge fund, right?So people have a lot of connotations around what that might mean, like, oh, you guys are evil  I mean, first of all, I’d say we’re trying  To be the non evil hedge fund. I don’t think those those are the concepts are synonymous, but  It’s just structurally there’s only about TED  Hedge funds in the world that are structured the way we are for various different reasons. one is just that in order to have our structure, we need a lot of energy, extremely competent and have a lot of trust from your investor group because of, you know, effectively how how Costco sort of shared across the group  But our model is a distributed network  It’s not like we focus on one particular area. It’s sound like they’re saying, Oh, we’re really great at picking tech stocks long and short or biotechs or something like that. We have all these different strategy pods. There’s actually about 100  And almost anything that  You can do in public and in some cases, private markets. So we’ll have people that are, you know, focusing on one for equity and various different sectors all over the world. Well, I think doing quantitative strategies will have, you know, people doing, you know, various different forms of ops and strategies focused on trading all these weird dimensions early to fall and sort of higher or higher order characteristics and various different types of funding trends. As I said, there’s about 100 different across the group  And stitching them all together  Is extremely complex. But if done well, can, you know, can work extremely well. And there’s, as I said, there’s only about ten hedge funds that are structured like this, and they’re they’re the most successful hedge funds other  So my role is is basically  Sitting at the center of all that and very how to tie it together and have been a driving force, not the only running force, but if the driving force in sort of constructing that hub and spoke model over the past couple of years given given sort of the history of of of our firm  And so the way  You know, as I said, it’s it’s a distributed network we have  We’re not trying  To sit at the center and control what everyone is  Is doing. We hire very competent people and then  They largely run their own businesses and are given the freedom to to do that  But at the same time, like that  Center group as well, it needs to needs to think about stitching everything, everything together to make it work better  And this is you asked about  The analogies from from rolling to our business works. I mean, there’s  There’s a ton, I think the most, most salient line from from rowing is it  Sort of regards to creating a team and sort of stitching very complimentary people and and talents together is like  Just the process of making a  Boat in and of itself. So you know, the way what rowing works and every team that  You’ve been on, there’s  There’s a selection process  Where like you’re literally sitting  Down and it  Fit better than the next guy, even  Though he’s going to be on your team. Is that a very competitive in a productive way?And the thing that’s so great about rowing is  Not the only sport like this, but  There’s no like storytelling, right? Like in some other sport, someone can say like, Yeah, you know  I’m super good soccer player or basketball or in football like  I’m the best ever in rowing. It’s just like, OK, sit down both I can score like it’s either going to be better or not or, you know, getting a seat race and then the seat races literally pull two boats together  Is which two guys? And you see, if it went faster than in the  Previous race, and this is very objective  So there’s a whole process in  Rowing about like just making the boat  And and by that, you know, in  Order to sort of be on the boat, especially as you go to higher levels. There’s just this  This baseline  Level of competency involved and sort of this sort of shared  Shared desire and acceptance that, yeah, we’ve all been through suffering again, not not the only there in the world in which this applies, but what  Rowing is certainly one of them where, you know, in order to, you know, be at the highest levels, you know, each person individually has to be very good  At the same time  I mean, there’s a reason why people use the analogy of like making the boat roll faster  Like, you literally have to do that  You have, you know, various different people that sit in the boat and you can’t just be doing your own, your own. Saying and especially if you really want to optimize it, you know, it’s it’s about getting on the same page and  Very severe levels and also respecting that  It’s not just that everyone is the same  You can’t just take a  Bunch of guys that are six, ten and big dumb animals that are ridiculously strong, but maybe don’t have a good feel for rhythm or things like that and put them in a boat and expect that that’s going to do as well  The stroke, as I mentioned, that was sort of my seat as a slightly different role than the people in the middle of the boat at a slightly different role than people. Do you know about the boat? So just actually  Saying, OK, there’s a baseline level of confidence that you  Get into that type of organization, but then in the same  Time, once you’re there, there’s no additional  Selection. So then you really got to go back and be on the same page to to make it go faster. You know, there are there very much analogs to to that in our business, not necessarily  Perfect analogs  But sort of the concept of, you know, our business model, you know, we’re hiring senior people. We’re not really a training organization. We’re giving them a lot of trust. We start with an opening bit of trust. You know, I didn’t make it up that quote, but I think it’s a great quote where we trust that people are. That’s from Jim Collins, by the way. So don’t give it to me  But, you know, just say you’re going to run your  Business here and doing your own thing. But at the same time, there’s this notion of  Why we’ve been successful in growing  In our world in recent years is  We’re not going out and  Saying that the organization is is evil, right where we’re respected at the center for four, applying common sense of situations, not necessarily saying in order to be successful in the fight in the finance industry, you need to be in a time of time that is not respectful of people and developing people and sort of all the aspects that go into being, you know, having individuals that are very good at what  They do and not  Treating them like trading cards as well, which in our case and in some other businesses. one of the things that called the operators really don’t like is that for reasons that are outside of their control, all of a sudden there can be kind of arbitrary decisions about, you know, for whatever reason, they no longer have a job so that those are just some concepts that I  Apply that to do very much go back to kind of throwing ideas. And I think again, the most salient one is there’s  Baseline level of selection. And then  You know, once you’re there is figuring out how we’re all in the same team.Let’s just go really fucking fast  Yeah, super, super interesting. If you go to let’s let’s pivot, send yourself and make your own leadership thoughts, if we could. If you if you think about like, maybe some of these critical lessons that you’ve learned that shaped the current phase of your life you’re in, I mean, you sort of alluded to some of this, you know, based on some of the rowing analogies. But I’d be interested if there’s something you think that’s like really topical top of mind for you, better some you’ve read or so you’ve been thinking about, you know, as you guys, you’re leading as a chief investment officer for a while  I I guess sort of one of the things that I become more  Cognizant of this is not by design is that  To the extent I  Have  A superpower, it’s that I’m extremely disciplined without like trying to be disciplined. It just sort of seems natural to me  You know, I can get into my daily routine if you want, but like, I eat the same thing every day. Very structure and what I do. Big believer in routines, you know, physically, I’m somewhat imposing. I can lift lots of crazy heavy weights and that’s just what’s interesting to me  And I have lots of broad interests of our books. I mean, these are just things that I  Do, and what I’ve learned over time is  Like, that’s not necessarily normal  And there is going back to rowing. This sort of idea like to be super successful in anything. You have to  Trick yourself  That that’s possible. Like saying you’re going to be really good at a sport is statistically irrational  Saying that you’re going to be very successful. Business is statistically irrational or they’re going to have lots of money  It’s just like if you just run the numbers and I’m saying this is a data person, like you said, No, I’m not, I’m going to conclude, that’s just nonsense. And yeah. And so what I remember from from rowing and  What time was helpful, and I think there’s very much from a leadership perspective in  Business is just almost saying like, guys, yeah, we’re going to do this, you know, we’re going to train. And then in the analog of businesses, we’re going to think about strategy  We’re going to see better strategy, the tactics we’re going to, you know, think over the in the context of not just days or weeks, but months and sometimes year actually achieve what we  What we want and just having an underlying level of like belief that you can do that and enthusiasm and optimism for that is is very helpful. And so I guess one of the things  That I’ve just been thinking about recently, partly because I was that I devoured books and podcasts and heard lots of people talking about this is like, Oh yeah, that’s just something that  Is just the concept of of optimism. I’m not like going out and saying I’m going to be inspiring  Today, but just sort of a belief  Of, yeah, like I I think we’re going to achieve X, Y and  Z and optimistic about that. But it’s realistic because effectively, you know what you put  In the training. I mean, when you show up on the  Starting line and rowing, and I imagine that there’s  Probably lots of analogs like this for you. It’s like if you know that you’ve put in years and years  Of practice to get there  Like you just. There’s this calmness, it’s like, yeah, I’m just I’m going to win  The match, takes care of itself. It’s OK, you it  And I think that there’s absolutely an analog for that in our world, especially in investing. It’s like there’s a lot of a lot of things that we can’t control  In our world  There’s there is short  Term luck involved  But if you have a good process across all the various different  Areas of your business  And you’ve been very diligent in putting that place over the years  And  The first principles themselves make make sense and you believe in what you’re doing and can  Inspire other people to  You know, follow what you’re doing and why. Like, it’s going to work and just, you know, all those  Lessons together about, you know, being dedicated and being confident because of, you know, you know, that you put the work in. And for us, that’s been very helpful. And we, you know, a few years ago, five or six years ago, if you looked at where we were relative to where we are today, I don’t think it would have been a stretch to a lot of people to predict that. But you know, here we were. We very much thought that was that was possible. So I don’t know if that  You know, that’s super, super interesting. I mean, what what would I think about, you know, because you’re right, the parallel for me, like with combat experience, is pretty similar seal teams. You hammer the fundamentals over and over again  So when you get on the objective, you’ve got a lot of confidence that regardless of how the objective unfolds, you know, the basics of shooting me, communicate, communicate. You know, you’re going to be better than your adversary and that that Wednesday  The second thing is, if you’re assuming you’re operating in a chaotic or complex, you know, conditions where there are a lot of variables that are moving or changing. The fact that the fundamentals are in place lowers that overall cognitive load and allows you sort of space and time to sort of assess the other opportunities or threats  And and then be it’d be adaptive. Which to me was always the differentiator in a in a in a market. Because really, what equates to speed, right? If you’re faster than your adversary becomes? I’d be curious. Like, what does that parallel for you guys meeting about?Like, so what part of the process was like, Hey, make sure your fundamentals are sound? And then and then, as you know, various factors or conditions are changing rapidly. How do you sort of get into your team? Yeah, it is very much the right parallel  You know, our our business model is sort of predicated on the concept of dynamism being able to sort of pivot literally our exposures to areas that we think are going to be more profitable or interesting or really responding to the world  It’s like a homogeneous blob in a positive sense  And so, you know, the fundamentals that we have in place are, you know  Do we have someone specific to our world? Do we have, you know, infrastructure that’s appropriate to be able to do that from a technology standpoint, from operational standpoint? Do we have risk management systems in place?Do we have the right decision making process? We certainly  Spent time over the years actually  Moving away from  Anything that resembles  Management by committee because it’s just like slow and it  Doesn’t add a lot of value in sort of a cover your ass thing  So you know the reason I’m biased  But but I love her business one, and I do think that as I said, that the most successful groups in our world is structured as in this platform concept is  Have the fundamentals in place, literally have the  Platform in place and then being able to respond and pivot as like, I don’t know, the analog to like  Guys are shooting at you like you need to herd and fucking cannons because now guys are shooting at you from the right instead of the left. But you still need to have that, like, you know, grounded  On the platform. That’s very much the way we operate  So there are things that we do that we’re doing now that six months ago, I just I wouldn’t have thought  Of but intervals throughout our process of identifying opportunities  And it’s like, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Let’s let’s go and do that  And we don’t have to like retrain  Or pivot all  These various different, highly specialized people because there’s a there’s a generalist aspect to me also to go in that category  And so I do  That’s why is are very bullish on our type of approach. And again, this isn’t something we invented. And in general, I think our industry is sort of moving more towards towards this concept of having a fewer number of firms that are more generalist in nature that can respond and pivot as opportunity sees itself in sort of very structural advantage, advantageous ways  I know walleyes been you guys have been thinking a lot about culture recently and about values and principles, and I know I’d be curious, you know, if you want to share some of your your more recent thoughts about how you how you deliberately set a culture for your firm  We’ve just in terms of headcount, we’ve kind of crossed that  Tribal number that historically just  Empirically pops  Up as like, you know, past a certain point people units divide into into sub units. So, you know, we’re now about 170  People, not that huge by any means relative to the  Scope of organizations, but 170, you know, very high performing people. And because we’re geographically distributed  And give a sense where if you were two years ago, how big were you? About 100, about 100. So you almost doubled in in two years during a pandemic, no less  Yeah. So there’s a lot of people we’ve hired that I’ve never met  In-person one still feels feels weird to  Me, so what we’ve been thinking about is like the so our friends that are around since 2005. And one of  The sort of defining  That there was literally  Talked about when we started it  It’s like we’re not going to hire high maintenance people. Well, trust me, there’s a lot of  Hype is people in finance and  It’s just not the viewers. It’s just not worth hiring someone  Even if you know they might be able to make you a lot of money or a high performance if they’re if they’re high maintenance. And obviously, that’s somewhat subjective because I mean, it’s been from people, but you kind of know what you see it  So. So that was a defining characteristic. But as we’ve grown, we’ve just noticed that it’s  Sort of become harder for people to  Understand like, OK, what are what are these guys about? Who are these white people? It’s like  This  Not small hedge fund that’s based in Minnesota. Like, who the hell is based in Minnesota? All the sort of aspects. So we actually recently took the time to write down some phrases that resonate with  Us  And intentionally did it in a way it’s like literally the first thing says is we hate our documents. Unfortunately, this sounds  Like an H.R. document, but there’s  Some, some momentary forgiveness, all of which is very true. So I remember we talked about it. I’d be remiss if I didn’t have at least one  Thing in there about that involves Rawlings. one of them is like row in unison. Just kind of obvious thing, like being seen with your teammates if you want both to fly. But  But the first thing in is statement is  I asterix out certain parts of this, but  It’s lets be fucking real  And so you don’t attempt to fit  A preconceived notion of what someone says you should be. Yeah, this one is really important  That’s her first statement. And I do think in finance, it’s just the world  In general  Like just being objective  About seeing things for what they are and stop trying to  Put on a costume or tell a story. Again, just like in wrestling, you sit down and urge the number doesn’t lie. You win the race for you as a race that doesn’t lie and finance. The other day you make or lose money  And so, you know, fortunately, we’re we’re in an industry where  There is sort of an objective measuring stick. And what we’ve seen, what I’ve seen and you know, some of the other my other partners here seeing is just people  The better that someone is at doing that  They are, the more successful there there will be  You know, other things that  Just are important to us sort of around, though, like don’t  Don’t have how many people, you know, be  Real, you know, work together, you know, being able to  At times go very, very  Fast, but at times also just just have patience or that that balance, I think think is important. You talk a lot about the speed of iteration today, which is which is super important, but you can’t just be running around like anxious all the time and changing shit for for no reason  So kind of finding that balance between the two other things that are sort of relevant or is this or talking about general concepts of just being humble, like remembering something no  Matter what you do? There’s always someone better, whatever, whatever better might mean  And then also being able to take responsibility, step up to the plate when you need to know things that are super important to us  They are the last one that we sort of ended on. You know, this is a little bit more particular  To to our business and how we’re structured, but  Basically just longevity in our community  And investment community, no matter. I think what you’re doing, whether you’re guessing in sort of the hedge fund world’s economy or, you know, public markets or private markets or venture capital is, it’s just the notion of consistency. And that’s somewhat of a mental thing where, you know, people that are taking huge swings and betting the farm are really the ones that last. So we do just like to sort of remind people that and there’s sort of macroscopic areas of sort of how they can manifest itself, as well as microscopic areas to them or the notion of a long term thinking  Again, these are just. Concepts that resonate with us that I do think they  Transcend  Characteristics of individual people like we don’t want  Everyone to copy what what someone else is doing actually. By design, we very much want sort of different sorts of skill sets, but these are pretty uniform across. You know  When we intuitively have  Been screening people to try and walk away and fit into, quote unquote, the wall way over the years, is there just some some threads that have come up?So we’re very much thinking about how to  Inculcate that into our environment because because yes, we want to continue growing to the extent to which we can do so in an enormously honest fashion. We want people to sort of understands what really matters to the, you know, the leaders of the firm, even if they’re not interacting with us as much on a day to day basis, just as we’ve grown out of necessity, that that’s harder and harder to do  And thinking about to do that thoughtfully and in a genuine way, like just blasting out an email and saying, Hey, these are our values, you should read them and then it will be great. Like, that’s not  Going to work. Yeah  So, you know, that’s that’s certainly 11 area for a culture cultural development that I think is  It’s super important in general to get broad statements. But financial businesses, investing businesses  Obviously need to very much focus on  Investing  You know, how they effectively generate revenue for their, for their investors and for the firm  As far as how those businesses actually operate as businesses, you know how they do things like even think about culture in some ways can be secondary  Whereas in other industries, those are sort of the most important aspects. So we very much are trying to be more deliberate about thinking about both simultaneously  Yeah, no. I love that. I love that you guys have always struck me as different. I mean, the fact just the fact that you’re in Minnesota and you’re sort of approach to the type of people you hire just does seem a bit unique compared to what I’ve seen and the more traditional financial hubs and firms and approaches. So, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. And I think that sort of speaks in your guys retention and you  Know, when your growth over the years, which has been remarkable  As you think about, you know, like over the last year of COVID, I’d be curious to see like what if what it’s been while capital’s approach to the pandemic, but from just a human capital management standpoint and then also like anything you’ve seen from a, you know, fundamentals of of your investing strategy  I mean, I think it generally in like society, there are  Actually a lot of benefits from  COVID, not the  Experience in and of itself, because it was, you know, terrible and also sorts various different ways  But but arguably there could  Be this sort of long run  Benefit of people asking, like, why? Why don’t we do things this way? Like, Why do I sit in a car for two hours a day to commute into an office every day  As well as sort of other types of analogs there?And just the concept of what looks from a systems perspective, like a really high level systems perspective. I think a lot more people are thinking like, how are we structured, how we structured politically, you know, on a national level, on an international level, those types of conversations probably just did occur to people are in our world more of the Microscopic level in terms of, you know, our business because of this idea that we are distributed network, that we have a lot of people kind of doing their own things already and frankly are geographically dispersed  I mean, we’re headquartered in Minnesota, which it turns out is not the center  Of the hedge fund world  And always have good offices all over the  Place  Literally in pods. There really wasn’t that disruptive to us. So what we did and what we still do is we say and this works because of the sort of that concept of like, we have super competent  People that have already pre-qualified themselves to get into our boat, quote unquote  That we said, you guys are adults, just figure out what you want to do when you want to come in the office, the offices open if you don’t come to the office or ship you a computer and like 20 monitors  To your house  Just you’re an adult, let us know and we trust that you’re sensible in that and we obviously can monitor for productivity and in our role  Too, especially when you have people that are, you know, generating revenue, you can say like, OK, like how is that impacting what from what you’ve done historically  Which is a big machine, right? That that works for us because just where we were business comprised of largely senior people where we’re not an apprenticeship organization, so I can understand why, you know, other other types of businesses  You know, banks probably as most salient  Example that you know, they’re training huge  Portions of their workforce, and  That’s very  Difficult to do remotely  Like this. Just you can’t do that. So, you know, I guess where I feel that for us is it hasn’t  Really had an impact  Overall. All things being equal. I just personally like seeing people in person. I think  That’s helpful. I think that humans, you know, very much a wall to communicate  In person and get more  Out of an in-person meeting than the don’t. And so our offices across the country are sort of full to varying degrees, some very fulsome, not full at all. But certainly, I very much still enjoy seeing people, people in person  So I kind of end up as like, I think, complete work at home almost for any organization. And that sounds very intentional from the start. I think that’s just idiotic  I don’t think culture can be maintained long term, let alone develops through through Zoom. It just doesn’t make sense  To me at the same time again, just saying to someone you like, I used to live in Boston, sitting in traffic in Boston is like way worse than  Walking barefoot on glass at times  And so I do that every day. Does that make sense? I don’t know. So I think our companies, just going back to what you’re saying is like, let’s just evaluate some of the why and how some of these questions and they are all just figuring out what that looks  Like moving forward  Which is which is very healthy  I mean, is there a good match to what we talked about as far as, you know, being dynamic and doing things that that overall make sense and perhaps some of the artificial restraints that frankly existed because of industrial area society that was sort of developed long before some of the modern sort of technological age that we have came into being. So  Yeah, I know I love that. I love that. I think you’re right. I think the pandemic has been, you know, almost a forcing function for those types of questions usually leads to like significant leaps and creativity innovation, which is great  You’ve seen probably a number of cycles in your in your professional career at this point. You know, I’d be curious to get your perspective on what you consider to be the latest cycle or evolution and specifically what I hear a lot talking to people on that on the buy side, as is, you know, the retail investor and you know, these these Robinhood’s that they’re they’re fundamentally sort of altering the game. So my question is, is it is it it made? Is it a fundamental shift or do you think this is just sort of like a a fad?I don’t know and someone I don’t mean just able to keep it take a cop out answer, but  Partly know we don’t. We don’t know opine  I don’t know opine on sort of these these broad themes because  I could see it happening  You know, both ways  You know, the retail. This whole concept  Of democratization of access to the markets, I think, is is ludicrous  It hasn’t been that difficult in order to  For for individuals even going back to, you know, certainly the nineties to get access to trading stocks. And just sort of the hype and mania around the internet bubble in the late nineties  When it’s real to say that  People are sort of suffering from from access and  What some of the apps  Have done  Recently is they’ve just obviously hated  The costs of trading  I can tell you, just based on the bids for the  Order flow from these, these retail brokerages, that you’re  Still  Losing money, you’re just not not seeing  It. So there is this sense, a charlatan nature to the whole business model, but it’s really no different. I do think there are some some differences now  Than maybe in the past, you the biggest one just as relates to  Availability of capital  And just how some of the structures for you, particularly call options, are being positioned to individuals. And there’s effectively people are saying  You know, I’m going to because I don’t really care if I lose money and because it’s kind of fun  So it was like gamified  Well, yeah, I mean, it’s absolutely gamified. And there’s there’s just I don’t think that’s contentious at all. I think that’s actually one of the things that’s celebrated about  The whole business model. I mean, you have fucking confetti when you make a trade. OK. But I am not trying to be overly philosophical about it, but it’s like there’s a reason why like, you want bankers and doctors to be boring, like, this is just not an exciting part of the world  You want competency and consistency and you don’t want, you know, confetti. So, yeah, I but I don’t necessarily think this is a new phenomenon in society. To what extent  Is does it lead to structural change in the markets?I don’t know. I can’t say. The one thing that is definitely new is because of technology. I mean, you’ve talked about this in the book, but sort of the ability to network now because of  Tech, which is not it is to just directly to enable coordination  I mean, like humans, main thing in the animal kingdom is that we can coordinate, right? And so now you can have forums by which you can have mass coordination of of individuals. Now everyone that looks at that says, like, yeah, that’s that’s collusion  Of course, that’s collusion. Like, that’s not really saying it’s illegal. But but realistically, yeah, like you’ve got, you know, how many thousands or tens of thousands or 1,000,000 people all doing the same thing, coordinating our activities because of technology that will have an impact  That’s not to say it’s going to get out loud, but I just don’t think that’s even a contentious statement. And so I do think that  Professionals like us, like again  This is not saying this is good or bad  Or right or wrong or anything, but just being cognizant  That that can happen. And objectively, if I’m a retail investors  Or the hive mind or retail investors and I see a stock with high short interest and you have an understanding for  Essentially how the game works. Of course, they’re going to play that game and say, Yeah, I’m going to squeeze the hell out of some hedge fund. That’s not being cognizant of that. It’s kind of like, OK, if you didn’t lock your car in a bad part of the town and someone comes in and, you know, breaks breaks into it, like, whose fault is that obviously that, you know, that’s just the reality of the game that we’re in. So. So I do think, I guess to  Summarize, because of the technology and some of the mechanisms which are more readily accessible  That’s certainly different. Is that systemically different in terms of impact on the overall market? I’m not sure I’d go that far, but just the  General sort of driving force behind, you know, people wanting to participate and, you know, getting a thrill out of sort of, again, not just a negative or positive. They saw it as sort of the negative connotation, but to me, that was just sort of the the idea of  Gambling that that’s not new at all. Yeah  So yeah, if you think about, you know, some of your your notes today at the firm and the decisions they’re making, how do you coach somebody from the center who’s going through a draw in their own business? How do you help them get out of that chair?As I said, I’m a fortunately, unfortunately  A pretty big math nerd historically  And just the general. I just can’t even begin  To explain how much I encourage people to have baseline understanding of statistics  So what I do in those situations is  Say, OK  Why are we here? Why are you here? Is this because you did something really dumb? Or is it just  That this is a natural evolution of of the business that we’re in? It’s like the  You know, the quote from Godfather to like this is the business we’ve chosen in finance. If you are right, 55% of the time on a daily basis, you’re printing money over the long period, but that feels like you’re wrong half the time  Yeah, there’s a sort of a psychological toughness that you need to have. And so I I do think for whatever reason, I just it’s a being  Objective of being able to remind people that, yes, these things happen. You know, let’s let’s understand why. Let’s understand whether something’s changed  And really sort of assessing is that is the process  Itself broken? You know, our our business model and the way I think about where it is very, very process driven. I do have a bad process  Or is it just that basis, a randomness? This is this is not a good period for. For what  You’re doing, that’s not to say we’re  Patting people on the back and saying like, Oh, it’s OK, like, you’ll be fine because it sucks  But at the same time, just being objective about it again, going  Back to the notion of like what is real and removing some of the human psychological biases  And that’s more in the sense  Of people that run fundamental strategies where they have discretion than in what they’re doing. But that’s not to say that even for someone running a content strategy, which is very rules based, that the ones that have had some of those same psychological pressures because at the end of the day, humans are the ones that are designing quantitative algorithms  But just again, applying common sense being objective  You know, looking at sort of statistical distributions and having an appreciation for what can happen. You don’t freak out and when something inherently goes wrong because it is  And because I said that to sit at the center and because of our business model, I said, we have 100 strategies, you know, something always sucks  So it’s like I’m constantly in  That world where it’s like, Yeah, I’m telling you, like, there’s always something that’s not working and  Just having a bit of perspective there to to pass down to people that are kind of, you know, one that monitors points of thing  We’ll going back to you just as we sort of wrap this up here. These are we talked about your strengths. I love to know like, you know, what are some of those like, you know, you see perceived weaknesses for yourself and how you how do you approach how you approach those in life?Sure. Well, you know, I’ve I’ve got a bunch and I don’t. one of the things I don’t shy  Away from it. Sometimes people affectionately call me a cyborg because  Externally, it might seem that way. But I actually very much talk about  You know, hear your things and really sort of working  On a pretty salient example. That’s just it’s somewhat funny, but  But I very actively mention this to people to sort of humanize myself is I really pass out at the sight of blood or the discussion  Of blood. I mean, that’s it’s actually a medical thing. It’s hyperactive  Vagal nerve  You know, everyone has is to some extent, you know  They get a little  Queasy. In my case, it’s like really fucking embarrassing. So I passed out every single time I’ve ever given blood. You know, there’s there is one dinner, a work dinner, whereas actually, I hadn’t really eaten that much. And so my blood sugar was little low and I was actually telling it was  A potential investor and I was  Telling them about this. I was like, Oh my God. By explaining that I have this issue, I’ve actually caused this issue to manifest itself. So I actually passed out at dinner, hit my head in the floor as the ambulance came and people were like, What the hell is wrong with you?The next day I walked to the office and people are like, Are you OK? Like, what the hell? And that’s like, Yeah, you know, it happens. And the last one, again, is that it’s just funny. But again, it’s like, So I was sitting on a plane on pre-COVID  I travel a lot  And it was like one of those flights where I was rushing, you know, got like I moved when I just got a middle seat  It sucked, whatever. I hate sitting in aisle seats. I’m not. I’m a small dude  And I was like, This just sucks. I’m going to watch some mindless movie to get  Through the next two and a half hours, and then I’m going to be home and see my  Wife. So I turn on this movie and it was, is John Wick two, which I want to think about is like, OK, action movie, whatever. But my God, like within 30 seconds, they’re like stabbing people in the Vatican, just white everywhere  And I was like, Holy shit, I’m going to pass the bill. And the play’s about to take off. This is a serious problem  And I did actually it. It was a bit of a problem  But I tell people about it because I a it’s kind of funny, but also it’s just just important. Like humility is a strength and, you know, like making fun of yourself as a drank, particularly if in some other areas  It might seem like  Slightly abnormal. Like, I  Get up at 4:30 every day and do the same thing every day. Like I said, that’s just not normal being  Like, Yeah, well, the same time, like you can look at John Wick and not pass out and I can’t. So yeah  That’s that’s a good one  It’s really it’s really I love that those. If you were going to leave sort of the listeners today of like some something that sort of been focused on recently, is there something like leadership wise that’s really you found impactful?What would that be like? Where would you sort of point someone to if they’re looking for their own personal professional development? Yeah  So one of the things I’ve been thinking about recently and the sounds, I put it in context. So generally speaking, like my  Priorities are in no particular order, but in four main areas, there’s sort of myself from the intellectual and physical sense my family, my business and the world and the percentages that a time that I spent on all those those differ in their so obvious cases  In each one  The last category is the world at large, frankly, something I hadn’t spent  A lot of time thinking about until recently. Like our system in and of itself, policy in and of itself, and have been spending more time just to. King, about that. I mean, I do police have a pretty decent understanding of history  I was very it’s not a chore to go and read history books or first principle sources and have done that for years  And that is something that I  You know, encouraging within myself, encourage you in the sort of other people that are, you know, successful in achieving whatever it is they want to do have sort of achieved some level of influence and responsibility, especially at a younger age  To actually just think about ways to get involved in a  More impactful  Way in policy, not in sort of a superficial  I’m going to do some microscopic charity to make myself feel good enough not to judge any wrong with that  But actually thinking realistically about policy because I do  Think more people like me need to  Think about that and  Figure out ways to get involved. I don’t have an answer to that  But that is  one area  That I’m certainly thinking about and  And I encourage other other leaders to think about, as well as is not just in your own backyard, in your own world and for you on how to sort of optimize your business. But there’s some pretty serious issues in the world and in actually thinking about ways to ways to get involved  More broadly speaking, I do think is very important. And again, particularly at those that are have achieved success and are in their thirties, it’s sort of our generation that is going to be left with the really crazy shit house  So that that is one thing that I was just I was just think of it, I’ve been thinking about it how to apply. Some of the the principles that I have personally, you know, have had some success in developing a business context  How does that  Or to what extent  Is that relevant as much in an in a broader sense? Or what are what are some effective ways to think more about policy involvement?Other areas are like, Where are you? What are your sources of content for this? Like, is there civic books or like blogs?So yeah, I first of all, I don’t do social media at all. And when I say that, like I, I haven’t used Facebook  And Twitter in ten years, but really?And so it’s it’s the ways that I consume material  Ah, well, I I go  For a walk  For 45 minutes every single morning before I work out and I was not. He works on three X speed  So if you do that consistently every day you can read a lot of material  And so that’s it’s a combination of what I It’s just interesting to me from, you know  Audio  Books, typically biographies or descriptions, a certain area of history. I mean, the first principle sources like, you know  Go back and read Milton Friedman’s original  Stuff from the sixties  It’s super interesting as well as podcasts  I was kind of why  I did this. I do listen to a lot of podcast, very fairly eclectic. I like the interviews. You know, I like interviews with people  Just having them actually in long format,

Designers may have incredibly innovative eco-friendly ideas, but how do we actually get these ideas into production? How do you convince a client or an employer to choose a more sustainable option that might cost more? Why do design-led companies boost stock performance by 211% over standard S&P 500 companies?These are a few of the topics covered in this 39 minute interview with Creative Leadership specialists Shana Dressler and Brian Quinn. Shana & Brian have been working together to bring leadership skills to creative professionals, and we were happy to sit down with them and a live audience of our community members to chat about the skills necessary to lead clients & teams towards positive change.To stay in the loop on the leadership skills training sessions we may offer in the future, sign up at climatedesigners.org/leadership. Links mentioned in this episode:Join our online communityclimatedesigners.org/leadershipShanaDressler.comTurquoise.NYCThe Value of Design compared to S&P 500 Transcript:Sarah: [00:00:00] Welcome to a special episode of we are climate designers! Not only do we have two great guests joining us for this episode, we have a live audience joining us for a Q & A session after the interview, which is something new that we're trying. It's something that we're going to be offering our community members. So if you are not part of our active fun and engaging online community, definitely sign up. You can connect with others in your area and around the globe by heading to climatedesigners.org/community to get all the links to get in there And it is free! Let's get started Marc: [00:01:08] Yeah So today we have Shana Dressler and Brian Quinn they're gonna introduce themselves in a minute but yeah super excited to have you all here and Shana you and I have been colleagues for a very long time now So it's exciting to work with you again after so many years So would love to hear from you all about your backgrounds So you've been doing this kind of creative leadership training for a while now So how did you all get into doing this kind of work and maybe more importantly why are you doing this kind of work Shana: [00:01:36] So first of all thank you so much mark and Sarah for having Brian and I so my background starts of probably 2010 where the New York city the startup community was just getting going I think most of us that were Launching a social enterprises and for-profit businesses had no idea what we were doing and that parlayed itself into small business skill training And so I worked for about 10 years with entrepreneurs and then started to realize that the most impact I could make would be to do leadership training Because at the end of the day if you have an idea and you have a team basically if you're not being effective as a leader it really doesn't matter how great your product or your services you fall flat on your face If your team isn't willing to follow so yeah and that led me into getting leadership training in Amsterdam at the things school of creative leadership And I'm also an executive coach and there was a lot of training that was involved with leadership there. Brian: [00:02:32] Yeah And Shana and I have known each other for a long time and We originally were working together reconnected and like 2019 and then ended up creating a workshop together around human skills or soft skills for 99 U And it was I think the last physical event they had my background is I'm an event producer and experience designer curator of conferences And I'm the one bringing together the workshop experience side of things As we look at this idea of at the time it was like the future of work And then also I think the future of leadership has is really connected with that as well we recognized that there was a massive change that people weren't going to be working the same This is all ahead of the pandemic and we wanted to help change that And now obviously the pandemic threw a few things off in terms of doing more of these workshops or events But I think it's great now to look at it in terms of reinventing companies or the way in which people work from the inside out and how can that be applied And in this case certainly the idea of applying that to climate designers is really interesting and around the scope of leadership Sarah: [00:03:39] Yeah for sure in our work educating designers we've definitely found that there's a real need at a certain point in a designer's career to learn these leadership skills one of the things I like to talk about is the design index fund is a group that analyzed in 2015 they analyzed the difference between I think it was 10 Design led companies and contrasted them with the S and P 500 And they compared these 10 design led companies with the value of the stock market over 10 years And they found that design improved the performance of these design led companies by 211% So that's what I like to talk about is the the value of design and what it brings to these companies So design led companies meaning apple Airbnb and Pinterest And we talking about what is the value that designers bring to businesses and maybe putting like a measurable number on that and then thinking as designers as climate designers we have the choice which businesses we want to Bring that 211% value boost to And which companies we've worked for in which companies we lend our expertise to so I don't know Brian do you have some thoughts around like maybe why is it that design led companies are doing so much better than the standard S&P 500 Brian: [00:05:09] we certainly when we did our program one of the base the kind of pillars one of the four pillars that we started with around like what are the humans centered skills for the future of work And trying to think about this is it all boiled down to empathy And I do think that designers are uniquely suited in this weird and sensible way to to be very empathetic And that means they also engage in a process I guess to generalize and saying all designers but when we look at companies there is that trope of course that many companies out there still think that design is the last part of the process so how it looks And yet they still have terrible weak products and services all of that But designers perhaps are in the way they think very well equipped to see a new way of looking at the world and having that conscious approach of intention and value and how things work So as of course we know our world is getting super complex it's just clear that design needs to be a part of this people say seat at the table maybe it's driving the whole process I don't know but I think that's certainly when we heard about it when certainly I heard about climate designers it made a lot of sense to me because it's okay climate change is one of the biggest issues maybe may dwarf this pandemic it's going to be huge in the future So how can designers take the lead either internally in teams or through the work they do through their own companies through communication and storytelling I think they're well equipped in many ways It's just about perhaps bridging that gap of leadership Sarah: [00:06:32] Yeah One we talk about often as a design led company to look at is Airbnb we love their story They were founded by three designers and I'm assuming that their current status as the most valuable travel company is not due to the awesome Photoshop skills those founders have Brian: [00:06:48] Yeah I it's so funny because I work in travel right now I organized conferences around the business of travel and yeah it is Airbnb is become one of the most valuable companies in the industry but and they got they the founders came out of RISD and they They obviously had the I think there was two co-founders and then they brought on like an architect to help to build things maybe they were inspired by Steve jobs at some point who knows but they ended up in Silicon valley I don't think anybody really took him seriously at first And over time though they've really came in with their convictions about this mission of we want people to stay in other people's homes and have this air bed and breakfast experience And everyone was like you're crazy But maybe it's the strength of their beliefs or knowing that they wanted to build a community around this but somehow over time and does great design as a part of it in terms of the visual aesthetic that imbued a lot of trust but over time they've grown and the idea latched on And it's a great example I think it's also really interesting to say with companies like Airbnb or apple that they wouldn't necessarily be built in the same way as if they were started today and we're facing an entirely different set of challenges So what's the ability to see something like that kind of company for climate design or climate change in the future as well So I think it can be there designers just inherently try to see things differently and build it so it's a matter of where can we get there Sarah: [00:08:10] you mentioned that it happens over time There's design process that goes into that and iteration listening to your customers and realizing where the problems are and then making changes based on that I think is a big part of that evolving over time to become a really valuable company Shana what do you think it is that design led companies are doing differently than other companies? Shana: [00:08:29] I think the design-led companies start with designers, and so their orientation towards leadership as soon as they assume the role of being a leader is going to be very different than if you are somebody that comes up the ranks of a fortune 500 company and or you have a business background and what Brian said before about people responding to like the founders of Airbnb like you're crazy is probably what makes design leaders great because there's an openness to it Like creative leadership is all about exploring things that are out of the box so I think that needs them with people And that's what leadership's all about you have a vision of your company and then you have to have people to execute on So already having human centered design as a process that becomes more applicable to people understanding how innovation works and how there's a disruptive nature of innovation hopefully translates into people understanding that people will feel disrupted in the process of the business being disruptive and then I think also the The point about empathy when you talk about leadership competencies empathy is one of the qualities that ranks the highest after vision you're going to lead somebody that has a clear vision And then after that you want to feel appreciated You want to feel seen that's what's going to excite you and inspire you to follow so I think that all of these qualities is probably what has a lot to do with why design led companies and also anyone that's doing working in design realizes that they have to collaborate And whereas people on top might be managing top down There's no way when you're working as a designer with everybody that it takes to get a product you have to collaborate and being a collaborative leader just makes you a stronger leader Marc: [00:10:14] Great So I want So I want to circle back to what Brian said a few seconds ago So what would a design led company focusing on climate actually look like So maybe Shana do you have any thoughts on that on that Shana: [00:10:23] I think that if you're not thinking about climate I don't know what you're thinking about I think we've all heard the comment If we don't have a planet to live on and live in in a way place where there's clean air and everything else that we need to thrive like really in no business So I think that it's so shortsighted not to understand your larger impact and how you are in a larger eco ecosystem in general so I think in terms of design-led companies focusing on climate I think one is you need to be deliberate about it and know that this is something you're tackling It Can't just be something that you're adding on later I think it has to be designed into the whole process and I think it's just not necessarily climate out there It could be like how are you using resources How are you figuring out recycling What is the impact of your own business has on the environment start close to home we can't do a lot about what's happening in multinational companies I have to think across the globe like start local in terms of impact and I think it's just there's so many tools that designers and design companies have like circular design back in the day when people were talking about cradle to cradle understanding if we're using raw materials how they're going to end up so we think that all of these things may be accompanies thinking more like social impact but at the end of the day it's absolutely connected to climate And so I think also making that intellectual connection is really essential that it's not just this term that I always feel is spread on everything what does social impact mean Anyway that's the social piece but what about the environmental side Brian: [00:12:01] it's so interesting So we're being very general right So it's designers we're painting designers with one brush and we're painting the climate change problem with another as well it's such a complex issue and yet no matter what kind of designer you are or what company you work in or what you see your role being it's I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how can and I think what we would embark on in a kind of Leadership dedicated summit here And what I'm also excited to hear from people in the questions and hear from their individual problems is trying to say how can we engage in a process And whether it be project based within a company and yes you could say it's is it just fulfilling some kind of CSR type need versus them understanding a larger intrinsic problem of in global issue where do you start small or do they are they looking to reinvent their entire company Either way I think designers are the ones that can really help lead the way in which a company tackles this And it may just be storytelling and maybe design thinking and embarking on that process But if a designer imagines themselves as the CEO is the leader of a company and where would they across the board look at these different gears that are operating and how whether it be data analytics or just analysis and feedback and all of this stuff how can we actually understand the impact of the company and then change operations and try to make maybe drastic everybody has even if they're a big company they're going to run into financial concerns of saying putting the brakes on it saying this is too much but trying to make the case that it's going to be much better in the longterm to affect change now in many ways I guess how can designers be at the helm for not only that conversation but strategy in terms of how a company is able to tackle that and maybe it's instilling that core belief across the company thinking empathetically again about I understand each person's job and their challenge And here's how I'm going to help to see that tackle it bring it into the process and not trying to bulldoze through these things is I think is also something I would expect designers might approach in terms of how they bark on this change throughout a company a design led company So I hope that again I think it would be great to then really get more granular with actual examples but yeah Sarah: [00:14:14] yeah Yeah For sure Shana: [00:14:14] I'll add that also when I ran an incubator for Google for design entrepreneurs and one thing we realized that maybe designers don't articulate enough of is they're actually trained to become strategists they're problem solvers they're communication specialists They know how to shape chaos into something that communicates powerfully And these are all really incredibly important skills that tie back in terms of a leader to vision Like again who do you look to To follow somebody that actually has it an idea ahead that they have a true north they have a destination and then basically we're inspired to get on board with that leader And so I think where designers can start to insert themselves even within a company is being intrapreneurial starting with where are the gaps Where are the issues what is the head of the company and people that have a C in their title like CTOs CIO CFO CTO there's so many see there's like chief data chief data officer what are they missing that you can see That is a really unique quality that people that go through design school get trained on And then how do you package that up to communicate what's needed then I think finally it's like compelling communication is a huge part of when I've seen design curriculums It's not good enough to communicate but you need to be Succinct and compelling and get to the point and to persuade And so I think that when you really see that as your skillset you can almost shift your lens to somebody to to the type of person within a team that can really affect very significant change Brian: [00:15:58] one of the modules in our workshop generally is influence and persuasion And I think that's a big part of this climate change arguably has become this political issue and it's something that becomes emotional for some And it's about how do we actually show people in many ways that even seemingly minute or infinitesimal changes now can have massive effects in the future or how can why do I need to worry about this problem in the future And I know that I'm sure many of us could try to tell that story til we're blue in the face but at the same time trying to engage in a process in that and thinking about also of course profitability for our company and answering that equation is going to be inherent in that process too So it's there's no one path but I do think that's part of that empathetic journey that would be really great is as long as people are willing to hear it to a certain degree. Sarah: [00:16:46] Nice Shana when you were talking about meeting with the different heads of different departments and the CTO and the CEO it reminded me of my background in software startups in Silicon valley I was trained as a graphic designer and then I was mostly self-taught as a UX designer I just fell into the role and I was never formally trained in leadership but I Just graduate graduated into that role through experienced And one of the things that you were talking about something that I would just do because I wanted to help everybody in the company do what they do better And so I would meet with every head of every departments as the sole designer at the company to just see how everybody was using the product and where the gaps were It was just something that I highly recommend people start doing if nobody else is doing it I'm getting back to now that we know how valuable leadership skills are to a designer's ability to change and improve business practices and products which is exactly what we're trying to do as climate designers Or we're trying to help them change their practices to become more sustainable regenerative innovative eco-friendly All the things so obviously this requires companies to do things differently than they currently are so as a designer who might come into a company like I was in my roles I was hired as a UI designer And then I just started doing product management cause nobody else was doing it and became head of product And it was just what I did but if you're not as a cheeky as I am I guess how would someone go about learning these skills and can it be done more quickly than 10 or 15 years of the school of hard knocks Like I did I made a lot of mistakes of course and learned a lot from those mistakes but is there a way to teach people these leadership skills more quickly and less painfully?Shana: [00:18:39] Yeah I think the first thing is the best way to lead is to start with a project that you take the lead role on because leadership training can become very academic like to listen to somebody talk about how to lead You're not leading yourself is a little bit hard to follow so I think as somebody that's working within a company the first step would be like listening for what's needed listening for where there's a gap listening where there's an opportunity And then the proverbial raise your hand and offer to take initiative and get started because you're not going to really learn how to lead until you have people that are following you that's the whole point And I think it's also it's not necessarily a lead follow dynamic It could be how do you lead There's three types of leadership There's no top-down you're just like the commander there's a leader lead leading by the side and there's also leading from behind And so part of really picking your leadership style won't be possible until you start to interact with people to see how does your personality drive with another person's and how do you need to keep aware of what the dynamics at play are so that you can figure out how to you adjust yourself Because telling other people what to do and being critical is not going to get the best out of people So there's so much that goes on with like observation and like a test and learn if I speak this way to somebody what kind of impact am I going to get If I give somebody feedback in this way so I think a lot of it comes down to really coming from a place of curiosity and as much as it's like the worst news and leadership is it's really about self-knowing The better You understand yourself the better you understand where your own landmines are the better you understand what irritates you that's step one like the consciousness piece And then the sec step two in leadership is called self-management meaning manage your self because you cannot manage other people easily but you can start to course correct for the way you're coming off and how to do that as you're observing all the time what is the response What's the look on somebody's face we're all on zoom so much Most of us are probably not paying attention but most of us are very emotive through our our face Or our body like as a coach I was been trained look at somebody's body If they're all of a sudden tensing up and their shoulders are way up to their ears or if they have a stance that looks you know stressed out chances are the body is the biggest indicator to understand what's going on and the head and the heart so like circling back to this in terms of like how to do it is start off with offering yourself up to take the lead on something and be passionate about it and then get great people around you so that they know you're not going to be perfect None of us are on and that you're there to to keep learning together as a group I think that the more it's about us and less about me and you where there's that separation I think people tend to create a lot more psychological safety which is one of the main principles in a leadership and team study that Google did a few years ago where they found that when we feel safe with other people we work much better We can deal with conflicts as they raise We can Give each other feedback And these are all of the things that kind of get us back to a place of optimal working and getting things done And everything else gets in a way of just not being productive is not so much about the work it's usually about relationships So I guess it's a good in the bad news it's easier to learn a skill That's a hard skill like coding or graphic design or customer development research but it's much harder to deal with people cause we're not taught it you're often not taught it from parents Your friends don't teach this to you Most religious education Isn't about how to show up you can read a book that doesn't really help you flex the muscles around How do you change your behavior so yeah unfortunately I think our school systems need to start teaching a lot more about all of these what Brian and I are adamant are human skills They are not soft They are not easy and mean I think we would all have a better day in and day out experience if we were just a lot kinder.Brian: [00:22:56] The connective tissue We often say I think a lot of people say that but yeah sure Yeah Sarah: [00:23:00] Brian do you have thoughts around specifically how long is it going to take to learn these kinds of skills Brian: [00:23:06] Yeah that's the funny part cause it's it could be instant or take a lifetime it's I think of these things as a practice and it's funny going back to the soft skills idea at the same time Shana I was listening to what you were saying and thinking about perhaps what designers bring as they also bring a willingness to engage in a process And if we thought about employing some Even product design process to a challenge like this that is complex because of humans And really if we think about something as large as climate change and and addressing that within a company and all of these questions that might come up people have problems understanding what they need to know or how much they need to know before they take action And anytime people have to make choices it's about are they changing their mind or being told to change their mind And so it's all of these things And yet if we demystify that and take it into a process and use our strengths as well there's times where I think Shana you say let's take our design hat off or keep it on or off I I think there's times where it's just let's not just be a designer because I think that can could be limiting in some ways too And be broader than that But At the same time using our skills and engaging in a process and knowing who you're leading the company you're at and what their goals are and what matters to them And then using that to think about how can we bring that into this process And anytime we're trying to start something ambitious or disruptive and there has to be some patience in terms of how long it takes but I also think that participation as far as bringing people into that makes it gives them a little bit of comfort and the agency and the fact that they can maybe be a part of that growth together with you And you're just helping lead it versus any sort of force feeding of here Let's get into this thing We have to do something on climate change Like people just I'm sure it can glaze over but any good Shana: [00:24:57] Yeah they've done so much study on knowing facts doesn't actually — that's not the tipping point for people. You can deliver up lots of data and lots of knowledge…And with designers understanding what goes into customer development and interviewing and design research It's applied that to human experience, Like how is it that we change? What makes us change? What when are we willing to go through something painful to know that on the other side is a benefit? Meaning if we have to stop — if you're thirsty are you going to not buy a bottle of water because you've forgotten all about water ball at home — what is that deprivation piece? That that's just an example of — we all know, yeah, Bring your own water bottle, you forget — And when you're a designer thinking to that specific example to bring back into your work, so then how do you, How do you figure out what that behavioral change piece is for the work you're doing in your job? Knowing that all of us — we know these things and we still, there's some reason that we're still not getting it. So I think the more concrete you can think of examples around change, what are the skill sets you've been taught, And then to think, again, as designers are trained to do, think outside the box, for the impact that you want to make within climate and your job and hopefully a project that you'll take on as an intrapreneur within a company to start to flex those leadership muscles. Brian: [00:26:25] And just to speak to one of the questions cause I do think it relates to this as in terms of designers dreaming big and how do you create something that's approachable or something that you know especially with leading it you understand that it can actually get off the ground is how can it have a beginning and an end? And what's the goal, That's something that you can ship, that is actually Achievable and put some boundaries on it versus something as broad as climate change and just broader initiatives — what's our key … I work with a lot of destinations globally and they often wonder what's the KPIs of what we're measuring the effect of what we are doing as a destination as a city in terms of our own initiatives or the actual overall environmental benefit or sustainability of how our entire city is achieving it is it on that big macro level or is it just really how we've had our own little benchmarks And I think it's a hard balance those tactics are some of the hardest questions to answer but at least if you define it give it some parameters and guardrails then that may help set it up for success and leading the next project that proving it out for the next time and continuing on. Marc: [00:27:32] Great Great So maybe this is a great question to wrap up with So many of our community members are designers obviously and they're working with companies who might be a little resistant to adopting innovative sustainable approaches when it comes to doing less harm to the planet especially because of these approaches often costs more ,might take longer to get into production, all that stuff .So I'm wondering if you all have any tips or ways that designers can approach companies or even clients that are maybe a little bit resistant to doing more — creating more of a sustainable approach? Shana: [00:28:04] The good news is that it's possible The bad news for most of us is that to get the attention of these leaders use you have to talk about how it's going to hit their profit and loss their P and L sheet So you have to figure out a very clever way to make the case for Implementing this change will actually save the company money. And I know that sounds so crass and so disconnected and so horrible. But the truth is that's where a company will change behavior. So taking us away for just one second from climate into diversity, equity, and inclusion — companies are now starting to implement these policies because they're getting sued. So they're willing to spend money on it and they're willing to make change because it's costing them money. They realized — McKinsey did a huge report (That's a management consulting firm that has global offices) that diverse teams, actually, they could find a lot more ROI with a product or a service when a diverse team came together to do the production. So using the example that's not climate, So climate designers need to learn from that and figure out — maybe you're doing a presentation on, what's the short term is that maybe we can't save you money, The medium term is when you start to save money, and the long-term is when you're going to save lots of money. And part of the the convincing factor is for this company to be so shortsighted, maybe there's another competitor around the corner That's going to take market share if this isn't implemented quicker also. Because most of us that are conscious consumers if we have to choose between two companies that do the exact same thing and one is more conscious around climate and ethics, most of us are going to put our money down to align with our own values. So I think, again, just to restate what I stated, you have to take a big detour off what you're used to doing, which is, again, to try and convince them, because to all of us it makes sense. But for people that are being driven by profit you just — it's a translation. You just have to learn their language, speak it, do all of your convincing in their language and pull it back to what you know is better. And that's that comes back to the leadership piece. That's the vision that you have that they don't have. That comes back to persuasion. You having the capacities and the competencies to take somebody that doesn't agree, And again, use your skills to get what you want. And again, I think, be willing to realize that this might not be a straight path forward. That you're going to have to take some back country roads, but keep your true north so that you get back to where you want to go. So that's why I said the good and the bad news. Yes, It's doable, too, You have to be very clever in how you do it Brian: [00:30:47] Yeah I think the motivator may not always be money either I think understanding where if we keep talking about a general company what are those things that they hold sacred or that is truly most important maybe fear can be a motivator maybe because if apple were built today at launching the iPhone is revealed to be like super environmentally harmful that it would have been a flop who knows but I think it's the companies today the kind of paradigm for what people are generally accepting both on a kind of public level public perception and what governments are regulating and that may continue to evolve So there may be that fear of paradigm of here's this facing problem that we're going to have to figure out And we can use design thinking or a process to engage in this in a different way or it may just be that there's a intrinsic mission to doing good in the world and we just need a way to get there and to try and think about again shepherding that I think so often people have that process or that goal in mind but then you get into somewhat of a process and you realize it's going nowhere fast And so maybe the analytics and ability to bring back some feedback come into come into a process and evaluation of work would really be helpful here And that could be small that doesn't have to be like we're design thinking experts That could be just even in a small business like a designer could say Look I think I can help us get there it's I think it's about stepping up in many ways too And just sharing saying let me help figure out this process or I think I could help here So Shana: [00:32:19] I think it's also examples If you can point to examples where in your industry using innovation and sustainable practices has worked that's really helpful tool that would be my addition Sarah: [00:32:31] Yeah yeah so what I'm hearing from you is holding that vision of the bigger picture you're trying to help the business create a brand And so maybe one of the choices that you need to make in the short term might be [more] expensive But if you remember that it also costs money to do build to do brand building activities they're actually saving money from that other place because this is actually a brand building choice and just like thinking more holistically about that. Brian: [00:33:01] Yeah It won't be a straight line ever And I think anyone looking for a straight line of here's some sort of profitability out of making these changes that's never going to be the case but I think yeah maybe getting the company to feel more comfort with discomfort maybe having the confidence in yourself to help lead that process I think those would all be a part of it and a lot of the skills and approaches that we look at in in the workshops they vary depending on the use case And I do think it's interesting to say how can we all build our arsenal of these skills and employ them at different times and know when to use them so often it's just that people don't even really take the first step in terms of embarking on even picking one of them it may just be a little bit of trial and error but yeah I think that's stepping up and saying I'm going to bring a sense that and shepherd it is going to be important Yeah Sarah: [00:33:50] Yeah it's a whole host of skills. Shana: [00:33:51] I think the idea about how can designers get the seat at the table and a what's so critical about being at the table is you want to be understanding what the leaders of your companies interests are. What their concerns are, what obstacles are they facing? So that's why you want to be at the table, and then how do you get there is probably a little bit more complex but I think it all comes down to, as much as you can, understand like what's going on with your company — how to get visibility in your company, what kind of committees might be around. Like how do you start to understand what the larger strategy of your company is. Yeah, I think that all of those play really an important part in trying to make change. Because, like, sustainable solutions are really effective, but if you can't convince anyone to do them and you don't know the language in which it's going to be effective then just remains an idea. And all of us just remain very frustrated that we don't see things changing. Sarah: [00:34:48] For sure I liked Shana how you brought in the example of diversity inclusion. And just to draw the analogy for anyone who wasn't paying attention, we are seeing similar trends in the climate space now where companies that have not been kind to their environmental ecosystems are being brought up into courts and maybe facing not just activism action but also legal action. And so part of what you're doing by adopting some of these sustainable practices is prevention of future liabilities like that. I feel like we could talk about this for another hour but we do want to have a little bit of time for live audience questions. Before we do that, do either of you have anything else you'd like to share, or just tell us how people can learn more about your work and connect with you online? Shana: [00:35:41] I don't have anything else to add. I'm really curious to hear what people's questions are. For me, I have two websites: One's ShanaDressler.com and that's my executive coaching work. And I also have a leadership consultancy called turquoise and the URL is turquoise.nyc. I do a lot of my work is project-based meaning working on soft skills training on an actual project which I found to be much more effective than pulling people off site to do a lot of disconnected just to bring in different workshop exercises and then they don't know how to then apply it back to their work. So that's a little bit about me Brian: [00:36:18] Yeah And I'm really curious to learn about everyone's work as climate designers here but I would say with regard to Shana and myself reach out to Shana if it's something around the leadership training or the workshop that could be achieved. And I think that's a great place to start the conversation, we talk all the time but to channel things I think it'd be helpful to reach to Shana and or yeah I'm always excited about this. And I need to like look at more conversations on Twitter now and everything just to find out what are the ideas. And whereas the communities that are talking about this, I'm very intrigued. Marc: [00:36:47] Great Great And before we wrap up just wanted to mention this to as many of you are listening and joining us live that climate designers is all about action, right? We're all about providing our community members with the tools and resources that they need to put climate at the center of their work And so we'd love to offer you all ways to level up and step into those leadership roles And so we're excited to be working with Shana and Brian on creating some sort of program to do that, and just full transparency, we don't really think that this program exists anywhere — the idea of bridging design, climate, and leadership. And so as many of you know Sarah and I over the last however many months of building out climate designers we're really building the bike as we ride it in regards to creating this whole initiative. And so we're all on this journey together. We're co-creating the skills We feel you all climate designers need to have to take climate action. And we're really Excited to announce that we're going to be hopefully creating this program with Shana and Brian. So if you're interested in taking part in this program head to climate designers dot org slash leadership and you can sign up for more details as we build out the program and launch it and all those amazing things. Yeah. So maybe with that, Shana, Brian, and thank you all for joining us on the on the podcast. And for those listening don't forget to subscribe, share this episode with any colleagues and the people that you work with that would benefit from listening to this interview

Dan Frommer runs a popular newsletter called The New Consumer, which discusses topics on technology and consumer brands. Beginning his career at Forbes, Dan has a long history in the technology field. His extensive experience includes Editor in Chief at Recode, Vox Media's tech and business news publication, and technology editor at Quartz. He also spent years building up Business Insider as its second employee. In this episode, Dan discusses how email is the most effective way to reach influential people, explaining how he leverages his newsletter, The New Consumer, in a way that will capture the attention of CEOs, board members, and investors.Dan shares newsletter insights, including: Important questions to ask yourself about newsletter tools. Avoiding the optimization trap. How he creates a quality experience for his readers. Links and Resources Forbes Recode Vox Quartz Business Insider Stratechery Hodinkee Benedict Evans Dan Frommer Links Dan's Newsletter: The New Consumer Dan's Website: FromeDome Dan's Other Website: Points Party Twitter: @fromedome Episode Transcript:Nathan: [00:00:00] In this episode I talk to Dan Frommer. He runs a popular newsletter called The New Consumer. He's had a long career in tech, tech journalism, he started at Forbes and then he was at Quartz and Recode and was basically employee number two at Business Insider, and worked to build that whole business for a long time.And he's always had this one-man-band sort of style, which really resonates with me. That's basically where you learn to, design code, you know, put together plugins, build out your site, as well as writing and publishing and being a journalist and all this other stuff. So he's done something really impressive and going from the editor in chief of Recode, which is a publication owned by Vox, which is quite large and popular, to running The New Consumer, which he's had for two years now.It's more than paying his bills. He's earning a full-time living from it and he gets to control his own destiny. I love it. We dive into all kinds of interesting topics. We talked about why he has only an annual subscription, rather than going for just monthly, like most people do with paid newsletter, his tech stack, what he thinks about free versus paid subscribers and so much more. Let's dive in.Dan, Welcome to the show.Dan: [00:05:00] Thanks for having me.Nathan: [00:05:02] So I want to go back a little bit, as we talked about in the intro, you've got all kinds of history and journalism and everything else. Now you're running your own newsletter, so when you got into journalism, where did you think that that career would end?What was the pinnacle? You know, like, as we go through the, the years, like. Was it ending with editor and chief of, of Recode? Like how far ahead did you, did you think? And,sand what did success look like when you were just starting out?Dan: [00:05:31] Yeah. I'm from Chicago originally. I, you know, my background is both in, creating websites, web design. I started doing web design and, and building websites when I was in middle school, in the nineties, and then I went to journalism school at Medill at Northwestern. So my background and my interests have always kind of been at the intersection of.Journalism like real ethical. proper journalism, but also creating new things on the internet. So new media brands and building websites, building audiences, and I've always kind of, I guess, optimize my career for both of those things. so that's, that's one way to say, like, I never really sat back and was like, Oh man, I really need to work at the New York times or the wall street journal or something like that. snothing against those places. It'd be cool to perhaps, you know, contribute there one day or something like that. But there wasn't some bucket list where I was like, I must work for. A big network or a big newspaper or something like that. I, you know, I actually started my career interning at,sthe public radio station in Chicago WBZ.And I really did a lot of,syou know, I trained to be a broadcaster. I was really interested in broadcasting, but,swhen I moved to New York to start my professional career, it was clear that. All the jobs were in what was called digital or interactive journalism. And also that's where my skills were really helpful. sit, it actually was useful that I knew how to edit pictures and build webpages and. you know, and do video work because most, most of my peers were not trained to and, and thought that that wasn't really part of their job. So,snot only was able to do that, but I really enjoyed it and I still do now.So, you know, thinking, thinking back now, 15 years ago, there was never a point where I was like, Oh man, I really need to get a big title at a big magazine or at the New York times or something like that. I didn't probably know. Right then, you know, my first job was, was at Forbes, which was kind of, but the, the forbes.com.So it was like the interactive,ssubsidiary of Forbes magazine. So I got to see that kind of big brand. Big media world, but,salso be kind of on a scrappier side of things. And, and from there it just kind of became like, you know what, what's something interesting that I could work on. that, that took advantage of both my interest in storytelling and journalism, but also,sadvantage of the, of the tools of technology.Nathan: [00:08:07] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I have a similar background of, you know, starting in high school of figuring out HTML and grabbing books in the library and trying to, trying to piece it all together. And that served me a lot. Do you think that,slike journalists today or anyone getting into. Writing or building an audience.Do you think that pursuing those skills of video and code and, and maybe some simple design is worthwhile and worth the effort, you know, in addition to figuring out and learning how to be a good writer.Dan: [00:08:36] It's certainly helped me a lot. You know, I hate to prescribe something to someone because you can do great stuff without any of it. but it really helped me a lot. I, you know, I, I really love being a one man band, which is, it is a term that was used a lot in like broadcast media, where you would have to, you know, hold the big camera over your shoulder and shoot and edit and do that kind of stuff.[00:09:00]sI never had one of those jobs. Those were some of my peers starting off in, you know, small town, local,sbroadcast,steams where you had to do that because there were no resources. I, I love being kind of a one man band on the internet though. Creating my own website, doing my own writing and reporting,syou know, editing my own work, producing it, publishing it, promoting it, all those things.Those are skills that I developed in newsrooms. So, you know, I was lucky to be able to work in some really great newsrooms where I learned a lot of those skills. What I would say is kind of, if you're interested in visuals, if you're interested in multimedia, Do learn those skills, whether it's, you know, in a job or at nighttime,syou know, in your spare time, on, on nights and weekends or in a course or something like that,sthose are, those can be hugely valuable skills.If those are, if that's the kind of work that you want to produce and publish.Nathan: [00:09:56] Yeah that makes sense So as you're going through, [00:10:00]syour career, when did, when did newsletters come onto your radar as something that you wanted to pursue?Dan: [00:10:07] It's interesting, you know, newsletters of course have been around for the duration of the internet or at least the duration of email. One of my absolute favorite newsletters started off probably in the early 2000s It was the DWR design notes newsletter from, from the founder of design within reach. sit was kind of the first editorial newsletter that I remember really loving. And then, you know, when we were starting Silicon alley insider in 2007, we were writing about DailyCandy and Thrillist as kind of an exciting model. that, that, you know, money was, was flocking to, and then of course,syou know, there's the new newsletter, boom.And, you know, I don't think there was ever a point even now where I was like, Oh man, I really, I really want to be doing newsletters, but it really is a useful and elegant format for two reasons. One is that. everybody checks their email. You know, this is, this is,sprobably a known cliche to say, but it's true.Like the most important people in the world, unless they have four levels of assistant,sare still reading their email. And so is everybody else So it's a really great way to, to reach the most influential people who, you know, are truthfully like not really on Twitter and if they were in the past, they're probably on it less than they were before.They're not really on LinkedIn. They're not really on Facebook, but they're really on their email. So it's a great way to reach important people. And that is kind of the foundation of my publication in the new consumer. I'm writing for the people who are running these companies, the CEOs, the board members, the investors, those people still read email.The other reason I love email and kind of picked it and settled into it is that it's a, it's a place to be really conversational and personal in your writing. You know, you're. If you think about the context of email. You're kind of bunched in between perhaps other email newsletters and,syou know, invoices and receipts and that kind of stuff.But you're also sandwiched between personal notes and professional notes from people. So if you're trying to be an individual with a voice. Email is actually a place where that works. you can, you know, it's, it's not all about the first person writing about me, me, me, me, me, but it does let you be more conversational, have a little more of a tone to your writing.That doesn't really work. If you're, you know, writing a news article for a Newswire like Bloomberg or Reuters, or even someplace like the New York times where. They've certainly allowed people to have more of a voice recently than they had in the past, but it still is kind of an institutional voice and not really yours.Nathan: [00:12:48] Yeah, that makes sense. So what did it look like when you're, you're at Recode and you're looking to, what was the conversation that you're having as you're looking to start the new consumer?swhat, what things were you looking for as to like, is this a good idea?sand actually making the switch, what was on your mind?Dan: [00:13:06] Yeah, I've been thinking about it for many years, even before I started it at Fox in, at Recode. I so my, my first job was@forbes.com. My second job was starting business insider. I was the second employee there. It was called Silicon alley insider. When we started in 2007, the idea was. We were going to be kind of an East coast tech crunch covering the New York startup scene. sI lived in New York for the last 15 years until moving to California this year. We are. And,sand that's where I really firsthand caught the, the startup bug actually worked for a startup college. So I knew that they were fun,seven before that, but, you know, being able to start. Alley insider with three of us at a, at a desk, essentially in the, in the back loading dock of another startup.And then four years later have over a hundred people working at the company. It showed me that there's a lot of room for entrepreneurship and innovation in digital media. So. I left there after four years and started my own publication back then. I'd also been really heavily influenced by a guy named John Gruber who doesn't really do an email newsletter, but he is a solo indie publisher,swho has, you know, made a great career from his site, daring fireball, which mostly writes about the world through the lens of Apple. sand then Jason cocky and some other of the Indy. Publishers, you know, back then, bloggers, I guess you would call them. So I started a site in 2011 called splat F, which was going to be my kind of. Indie news tech analysis blog also kind of through the lens of Apple and similar companies. I wrote a lot about Netflix and the early streaming business Quickster was one of my first stories there. sand it did really well. I got like a quarter million readers my first month or something like that, which is a lot for a new site. and I was, but I was monetizing through ads, which just doesn't work super well for niche media. there were some really great ad networks back then that were designed for niche publications, but wasn't really a successful business doing that. sat least by that time, 2011. Things were kind of starting to dry up in the ad world where programmatic was starting. You really needed scale. That video ads were a big thing. Worked really well for big, big mass sites like the verge or, you know, New York times or, or Yahoo or something like that. It didn't really work super well for a niche site.So I did that site for, for a few years. you know, I had a really. Nice deal with an ad network where they were paying me a good guaranteed rate, but probably weren't selling that many ads. So it wasn't really a sustainable thing. I didn't want to sell my own sponsorships. That's a whole other job. so, you know, while I had a great time publishing that side, I ended up and then I ended up doing another startup,swhich was entirely different. sbut then ended up going back to work for, you know, established media companies. Quartz was, was my next job,swhich was kind of a startup at the time within the Atlantic group. And then I went over to Vox media, which by that time was a pretty big startup. I think I was probably over employee 1000 at that point.So,seven though it was still felt like a startup,sit wasn't always, so anyway, so had been thinking this whole time, like, all right, well, what's my next thing. There were a lot of, a lot of startups and kind of indie publications that I really admired. And they weren't really monetizing through ads.One of them was Hodinkee, which is a, a site about,smechanical watches and kind of viewing the world of, of luxury through, through really fine watch craftsmanship. They were making money through product sales and through e-commerce, which was super interesting. my wife works for a publication called the business of fashion, which was started in London and they were one of the pioneers in paid subscriptions for professionals, you know, costing several hundred dollars a year.That was something that I was aware of and thought was interesting. And then of course, you know, the, the real big influence was Ben Thompson and Stratec Curry, which really smartly used the newsletter as a function of a paywall. you know, there's always been a, a website component to Stratec Curry, but.He was able to use the email, the access to the email newsletter and the fact that it was pushed. And the fact that it was really gated by the fact that people don't share email accounts to set up individual subscriptions charge what at the time seemed like a lot of money, a hundred dollars. Although we know that as actually.And then an incredibly great value. If you read Stratec Curry and work in the tech industry, you're getting thousands and thousands of dollars a year worth of educational value from a hundred dollars subscription, which he has since increased, modestly the price. but that's when I started seeing email as, as a tool that could help me a run that indie publication that I always wanted to run and be okay. suse the subscription and membership functions as kind of a gating mechanism. And that's where email, in addition to being able to access everybody that I wanted to access and have that kind of personal voice too. It was a really great paywall function. And that's kind of how I landed in the world of email.Nathan: [00:18:28] Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right. That like newsletters are great for the personalized it feeling like you can. I mean, I'm just thinking about the different editorial voices that each publication will have and, and writing your own newsletter. You can define exactly like this is the voice that I want to have.This is the way that I want to interact with my readers. And even,sat least for me, I like, I love the replies to the email. Is that something that, that you've pushed with your audience of asking people to reply and share feedback or,sis it more, you know, just the one to many side.Dan: [00:19:03] you know, not as much as I should. I do get a lot of replies. They're very thoughtful. occasionally I'll ask someone like, Hey, should I post, you know, do you want me to publish this? And sometimes they're like, nah, not really. You know, I didn't really, I didn't really edit it or write it in a super eloquent way.So I'm still working on that. It's interesting. Like one of the things that definitely is different than I thought it would be is the format of my newsletter. You know, I, I,syou know, I, I grew up reading a lot of magazines. I love the idea of the way that magazines are formatted. I also read a lot of like newspaper columns when I was a kid.I always thought that I would have a newsletter that had a lot of modules to it, like an introduction. And like maybe some, some short pithy takes somewhere either at the beginning or at the end, and then maybe a longer piece. And then maybe some other things that were like, Not even texts, like they were either a graphic or a chart or something like that.Anyway, that this is all to say. I did not imagine that my newsletter format would be a 1500 word essay most of the time, but that's kind of what it's turned into. And I mean, it's working,speople like them they're I think, valuable and useful. They let me get the depth that I want, which is super important to me. sI'm not, I cannot ever write shallow stuff that everybody else publishes. I just would go out of business. there's so much commodity facts and data out there. I could never compete with Bloomberg on the level of like just aggregating facts quickly. So I don't want to, I want to have depth and analysis and a point of view. sand it's turned out that like, The, the format that really works for me for that is like a 1300 to 1800 word essay. but I still do want to get back to this idea of like other, other formats, other modules replies are certainly a version of that. [00:21:00]syou know, I've been very fortunate to build a sizeable community of readers and.They're really smart people who work in the field that I write about. So I'm very flattered and lucky in that sense, and then figuring out how to get their thoughts into the newsletter. you know, beyond just like interviewing them and writing stories about what they do, which I do do,sfiguring out how to get more of that kind of conversational element into it is something that I'm working on for this year.Nathan: [00:21:27] Yeah that's, that's super interesting of just what you thought your expectations would be going in. then what it turned out to be like. I see a lot of people writing newsletters. Yeah. And maybe someone like Tim Ferriss, right. With the five bullet Friday where it's these quick little hits and, and you see that.But honestly, the newsletters that I see doing the best are the ones that are taking the approach that you have of like longer form, original thinking from a unique perspective. and so I'm trying to think if, if there's very many people that have built an audience through the short form quick,sLike the, the board and newsletters, the highlights.Does anyone come to mind?Dan: [00:22:08] I mean one that I love is Benedict Devin's, who has had an interesting career. He started off as a, as a, I believe a, an equity analyst covering telco stocks,sthen became a venture capitalist at Andreessen Horowitz and has now gone independent with a subscription newsletter. He has a really fantastic kind of bulleted newsletter with, I believe, well, over a hundred thousand subscribers, Nathan: [00:22:35] Yeah Dan: [00:22:35] like 300,000 Nathan: [00:22:36] side of Dan: [00:22:37] Something like that. Yeah. and the reason he does so well, I think is not just because he does a good job curating the bullet points, but he has a very, very good way of having a succinct take on things that is both educational and also kind of makes you think a little bit and doing that in a way that is not patronizing.Or cynical. there were a lot of like angry takes on tech and. While entertaining. I don't find those tremendously useful for anything. perhaps they're useful at, at, you know, getting people mad on Twitter or something like that. But I think Benedict Evans knows the right stories to pick. And then also seems to have just a really smart take on a lot of things.He has also since,syou know, and, and he was blogging in the background. So he w he was writing those longer pieces as well. That has kind of become the hybrid model of his newsletter. Which I, you know, and love and, and happily pay for. there's others, you know, there's a really great one in the e-commerce industry called 2PMswritten by a guy named Webb Smith who has built a, you know, he's built it.More,ssophisticated business than just newsletters. He has a forum and that kind of stuff. He's a great curator. There's another one called lean Luxe which is a really great curated list of links. they're out there, but certainly the, you know, when I think of what I'm trying to do, it's kind of a hybrid between journalism and analysis and.Format-wise I actually take some inspiration from wall street research or, you know, corporate research. I read a lot of stock analysts notes and research reports from places like McKinsey and BCG and those types of places. And. You know, I would never call what I'm writing a white paper. I don't understand why people are attached to that format or concept. sI download a lot of those. I never really finish reading them. but I, you know, I, I try not to, I try to intersperse my text with,scharts and other visuals and try to create kind of a, you know, an, an experience that's both educational, but also. Maybe not entertaining, but kind of entertaining, like fun to read and to experienceNathan: [00:24:59] Yeah, that makes sense. you know, one thing on the, on the numbers and everything from your newsletter, you should, we were talking before that, you know, you're earning a, full-time living from. from the newsletter, a question that I had going in is you have exclusively a paid newsletter. A lot of people have this hybrid model, right.I have a free version and you know, and then the paid version you've gone all in on paid. Can you talk about,swhy you went on unpaid and, and then, you know, why isn't there a free or a freemium model to that, to your newsletter?Dan: [00:25:32] sthe answer is that time,sis, is one thing. So the truth is actually there are some free articles,sand I, I started off kind of envisioning one free article for every two paid articles. It's just that I, I, you know, for various reasons, like the thinking from I started writing the new consumer, my wife and I moved to Paris for four months.So there was just, you know, Paris was kind of the reason why I wasn't writing that third post every week. there are other, other, other reasons since then,sI do try to, you know, I aspire to have more free content. I think that is certainly a way that people find out about you. There's no doubt that articles that are free reach, you know, at an exponentially larger audience than ones that are paid.I publish probably a free article every month or two. My goal is to get that to about. Once a month or twice a month. one thing I just did that was free. However, is this is this massive project that I launched in December called consumer trends, which was a collaboration with a venture capital firm in New York called coefficient.And what we did is basically 102 slide deck of the biggest trends that we thought were going to matter. Looking forward that, you know, the Corona virus had had this. Phenomenal impact on, you know, basically all of life, but especially the industries that we focus on, consumer packaged goods, food and beverage,syou know, things that people consume.And so instead of writing a, although there is a 4,000 word version of it, which was basically my script for the video version,swhich I'll also publish for free. Pretty soon, there there's a hundred, there's 102 slides and. And what I did was published that document for free. the video is free that the script will be published for free for folks who don't want to flip through the slides.And then what I'm doing for subscribers is kind of deeper dives on some of the topics. So that's where I'll do the, you know, 1500 word essay about what was four slides in the deck becomes a whole topic for, for deeper discussion and analysis. With the membership. So that's,syou know, in terms of how much time it took to produce that, it definitely kind of equals the equivalent of if, if I had been publishing free articles every week or two on the site,sit just happened to be published in one huge.Peace at the end of the year. you know, my plan kind of going forward is to do more big, huge projects like that, which I think really make, make up for the time and the value that they create. And then also do some more free stuff over time. And maybe even open up one thing I've done is open up some stories from the archives that I felt.Maybe didn't get the attention that they deserved. I did an interview with a co-founder of a beloved chain, chain of Indian restaurants in London called and I published it. I think March 17th or something like that, like right. As everyone went into panic about lockdown. So that piece kind of didn't get the attention.I thought it deserved at the time. So I opened it up for free and I've been promoting it since then. and it's reached a lot more people than it would have had it been paid. you know, another very obvious thing I need to do is kind of tweaked my homepage of my website a little so that when people are landing on it, And learning about the value proposition of my paid services.They're also seeing, Oh, here are some free articles,sthat kind of give a sense of, of the, the point of view, the voice, the topics, the analysis, and hopefully those add up to, you know, a better, a better paid service. And also,syou know, being able to reach folks who are perhaps students or something like that.And can't, or shouldn't be paying $200 a year for my paid subscription.Nathan: [00:29:34] incase Right And I think you correctly pointed out that you don't want it to be the reason that I thought that you didn't have free like Oh I favorited or retweeted your announcement tweet your earliest, not prominently on your website And so it really everything guides you from the friends and supporters it's like pay $200 and like actually support I have lots of questions about thatsone is,sfirst, what effect do you think that has had on conversion rates? Because I imagine it only having a paid option you then you're free you know, your traffic to immediate,spaid conversion, paid subscriber is going to be higher because that's The primary offering volume is that a factor in why you have it set Yeah we'll go with Dan: [00:30:15] email Nathan: [00:30:16] volume by theDan: [00:30:17] when I launched, which was almost two years ago, it was a conscious decision. You know, I knew I would get a lot of attention by launching. It was still. you know, relatively early in the era of paid newsletters,syou know, I was fortunate to,sbuilt up a following on Twitter and kind of throughout the tech industry during my career.So I knew that my launch would get attention. I knew that I also needed to generate paid memberships in order to do this as a full-time job. And so, so I kinda didn't, I don't know, I didn't, I don't want to overthink all these things, but. I didn't want to give people an easy out like, Oh, I'll just sign up for the free plan.And, you know, we'll see if it's worth paying for, I really wanted to kind of give people a strong incentive to become, you know, early, you know, effectively angel investors by,swithout getting any equity, of course, by signing up by putting down their 200 bucks,sit was only annual subscriptions at that point.And I've since experimented with a couple other options I did later at a, a free. Tier of,sof newsletter that I've. Underutilized,sone of the things that's kind of a challenge is that member full doesn't make it easy to just plop your email in and sign up. Member full is the tool I use for managing my membership. syou know, I've kind of talked to them about it. They're there. Drawbacks to that as well. they, they use a JavaScript pop-up I don't promote the free newsletter anywhere though. Really accept kind of as the option of last resort on the Nathan: [00:31:54] producing Dan: [00:31:55] page where I describe all the, all the newsletter subscription offerings, however, that big trends report I launched new consumer.com/trends.You will see that one of the in fact, the first option that is being displayed is if you want to access this for free. Just sign up for a free account. You don't have to pay anything to read all of this. And that's where, you know, over the last month, thousands of people have signed up to read to read this free product.Now I all of a sudden have a list that's big enough that I should actually be doing something with it. So one of my big projects for this year is figuring out, okay, what is something that I can offer to those free members on a reliable cadence that is. Worth receiving,swhether it's,san entire free article or summaries of some of the paid are paid work, I did,sor something else, something completely different.Maybe that also goes to the paid members. Maybe that's my Friday five thoughts or whatever it is. I have to think of. something that is useful and that I actually want to produce, and then I can send it to perhaps both of those lists and eventually drive more of those free members into paid memberships. sbut that's kind of, one of the big plans for this year is figuring that out.Nathan: [00:33:12] Yeah, I like it. Well, there's a lot of things,sthat I want to highlight in that first. There's something that happens. Like if you, as you build this reputation and friends in the industry and everything like that, and you venture out on your own, you do this new thing, which so many people are either have done or thinking about doing then what happens is you got all these people who are like, Oh yeah, I want to support Dan.And so what does supporting. Dan look like in this case. Right. And I think you correctly pointed out that you don't want it to be subscribe to the free newsletter or Oh, I favorited or retweeted your announcement tweet. Like, no, I want, you know, from, from the friends and supporters, to pay $200 and like actually support this new venture.And so by giving that as the only option. I think that works really well. I think just from a psychology perspective,swe've seen that, well, a couple of things, one, you see that on Kickstarters where, when people come out with Kickstarter, if there's whatever that cheapest option is,sum, often people would just go for that.And so you see average order volume, or I don't even know what you'd say. Yeah, we'll go with order volume, go up just by the fact that they make their cheapest option, like $30 instead of $5, you know, or, or that kind of thing. And then another thing from that is, like I mentioned, you're going to have a higher conversion rate to the site because that is the, the primary call to action. sand so I think that's great. And as you also pointed out the, the annual subscription, right, it's going to have lower churn. There's more of an investment. People are saying like, okay, I'm going to try out your publication for a long period of time. so I think all of that is good. Now looking through your site.I'm I totally agree. I like, I think now that you're established, you should have more of that free option. And actually one thing that I would do is take those like greatest hits articles that you have of, you know, maybe the five that you've made free over time that you really want people to read and bundle that we could tweak and optimize the site it out, like try it out for free.Get these five articlessand those automatically go out once per And that is a good way to perfectionism as a creator is a good way to not get anything done and so now that you not make any progresssbut yeah and on the on the testing side of things coming from like the software world where the big free report.Right That's accessible. That's a PR worthy that's worth spreading around like there's clearly a lot Yeah The effort that goes into it that's such a good to my site It's still not enough like traffic and new signups to really like do many statistically I think that approach of you know always having great content behind the paywall, over this as an the last two years doesn't apply to you because the We've seen You know you're like I would have to run this test crazy What are your thoughts for it to be statistically significant where I shouldDan: [00:36:08] Yeah, I guess one of the, that to me, one of the most interesting things about this kind of line of work or career or whatever you want to call it is the fact that small decisions like that matter. one of the parts of it that. Kind of, I don't want to say aggravates me, but it's challenging. It's like, it's hard to do too many tests.Like you can't really, yes. You can do AB tests on like subject lines and that kind of stuff, but it's hard to really test things like that. Like I can't go back in and launch a second time, this time with a free option and see, Oh, did I get, you know, 50,000 free sign-ups because I launched and therefore my conversion rate.You know, even if it's like one or two or 5% from that leads to a stronger outcome at the end of the first year, like it's so easy just to overthink those things. And to me, like those are yeah. Interesting academic questions and,syou know, I hope that the answer is never like, Oh man, you missed out on a 10 times bigger business. sbecause of anything like that, like, you know, as, as, as I've heard on previous versions of this show, like. You really just have to create great stuff on a reliable basis. And, you know, as I always say, like my, my, the secret to success in media is be interesting every day forever. And, and that has nothing to do with, you know, how you position the signup buttons, or whether you charge one 99 or $200 or anything like that.It's just like, can you maintain a level of, of quality and,sYou know, and, and be essential to people over a long period of time, then you're going to be fine, no matter what, at least I hope so. And, and so far it's, it's worked out. So,syou know, I, I think about things like, Oh, what if I, what if I did this gimmick that's free?Or what are I, what if I try this other thing over here, or do I need a drip campaign or all these things? It's like, yeah. And you do, you know, for, for many months, actually, probably over a year, I didn't even have a free. sorry if I didn't even have a, an automatic welcome email going out to people, which is idiotic.I know that's the first thing I should have set up. And now I do, and people like it and it's giving them, you know, access to some of my best work, either the free folks or the paid folks. And, and now you're right. Like what, what other campaigns can I set up that maybe re-introduce people to viable work from the library and the archive that. syou know, they, they would not have seen otherwise. And that's, again, another kind of another project for this year is figuring out how do I surface my archives better? And how do I take advantage of the fact that I now have, you know, probably over 200 articles that members can read and probably a dozen or, or more articles that,sthat visitors can read for free when they're coming to my site.So that's kind of a project for the first half of the year.Nathan: [00:39:11] nice. Well, another good point of that is. One just start. Right? Cause we could, we could tweak and optimize the site forever and you'd be like, Oh, I only get to launch one time. And so I need to make sure that it's perfect. And that is a good way to perfectionism as a creator is a good way to not get anything done and you know, not make any progress. sbut yeah, and on the, on the testing side of things coming from like the software world where I spend all my time now, Like we have all this traffic and we can run all these AB tests, but like, even on my blog, I've got about 25,000 email subscribers to my site. It's still not enough, like traffic and new signups to really like do many statistically significant tests.So a lot of times when you read about AB testing or these other things, it's like look as an individual creator It doesn't apply to you because the math doesn't You know, you're like I would have to run this test for nine months for it to be statistically significant where I should actually trust the results And so I think you're spot on that. A lot of that stuff is great to read but it doesn't really applyDan: [00:40:19] Yeah. I mean, even, even when I was,syou know, at, at Fox media, we were, you know, we were fortunate to have. Tens or hundreds of thousands of subscribers to our our Recode newsletter. And we would do these AB test subjects. And the open rate would, would maybe vary by, you know, less than a percentage point. And at that point it's like, all right, just go with your gut.Like, what's the, what's the best subject line. and don't overthink too many things.Nathan: [00:40:47] yep. That makes sense. one other thing that I want to talk about is pricing. And so you have,syou know, the, the price of $200 a year. Is that the price that you started with.Dan: [00:40:58] surprise. I started with pricing is a huge question. you know, I had folks giving me advice to charge more than that, like a thousand bucks a year. at that point, Ben Thompson was at a hundred. There were a few other paid newsletters run by kind of friends or acquaintances that were in the hundred dollars to $300 range. sI had, you know, I knew that business fashion was charging two, 300, $400 a year for their professional membership. I also knew that investor newsletters were charging many thousand dollars a year for their membership. So,sto me, I, I thought about kind of what, what feels right. you know what, what's an amount that I feel appropriately values my work, but isn't kind of.Like a jerky amount to charge. And I Nathan: [00:41:48] math Dan: [00:41:49] to 200, it just felt like the right number, the way I kind of backed into it was, you know, w what would,swhat would it cost to have a nice business? Lunch was just the two of us in New York city. If we went out for sushi or something like that. Not 200 bucks. So, you know, if this is the equivalent of my member,smy subscriber taking us out to lunch once a year in exchange for my brain, 50, 50 weeks out of the year,sI think that's a pretty fair value exchange.I anticipate most people are expensing it or otherwise justifying it as a business expense or as a professional membership or as educational media. So. I feel comfortable with that. I did some experiments with monthly and,sand now I have quarterly memberships, monthly, monthly. It was fine. I didn't love it. sI want people to feel like they're investing in me for more than a month. you know, there weren't a lot of people who would sign up for a month and then quickly turn off auto renew and. You know, gobble up everything and then disappear. That wasn't really a huge problem. I haven't really studied churn in depth, you know, there's just so many variables. sit's at a level I'm fine with, so I'm not, not paying too much attention to it. obviously I want to be, I want it to go down and I want it to provide more value to, to readers, but it's not like a huge problem. but, but I switched to quarterly as kind of an introductory point. Cause I figure, you know, three months in right.If people aren't loving it, like they shouldn't have to pay for it and read it. and if they are, that gives them kind of an entry point where they've seen enough of my work, you know, I, I kind of think as every issue, as an experiment in like topic tone, length format, structure, point of view, all of these things.And over three months you get enough. You know, enough iterations Nathan: [00:43:44] traffic and we Dan: [00:43:44] that to, to get a sense of like, this is either something you want in your life or you don't, and then you can either kind of upgrade to an annual membership and pay less on a monthly basis, or just keep cranking with quarterly. And I think that's a pretty good amount of time for people to get it.Good sense.Nathan: [00:44:01] Yeah, that makes sense. So over this time, like the last two years, since you launched a new consumer, We've seen like sub stack rise, like crazy. What are your thoughts on building, you know, on an independent platform? You know, you've got member full MailChimp plus Stripe, Yeah So since you've been writing about tech for a long timesI'd love your take on sub stack versus mediaDan: [00:44:22] yeah, not truly independent. CausesI didn't write my own payment processor language. Right. you know, you're, you're in any line, you're always kind of relying on suppliers. I, you know, for meThis whole thing, the only reason I do this and the entire reason I do this is because I want control. I want to control over my time, primarily. I want control over what I think about and what I do. And I want control over the experience for the member and the reader. And, you know, I want them to have a clutter-free reading experience without any intrusive ads. I don't want them to ever have to click off of a pop-up. all these things are really, really important to me, to the degree where I'm willing to risk my career and my life to operate my business this way.So,stools are extremely important to me. hopefully they also play a role in that user experience and therefore, you know, I thought substantial. W was fine. if it was the only option I had, I would've probably been happy using it. I might use it for another project. I have that,sI'm currently paying MailChimp way too much money for,sfor a free newsletter that I, that I am not even sending out.So. Yeah, that's point's party, which was kind of my first experiment when I was still working at Vox media, I was like, what's it like to make a newsletter? Huh? Why don't I spin up a friend's newsletter about credit card points and see how I like writing newsletters. and I learned very quickly, wow.Newsletters are a lot of work. and also it's very expensive to host a list on MailChimp with something like 3000 signups,sthat I'm not sending out. So,sI'm still working on that one, but. and I'll probably, it was hard to write about airline points during, during COVID, like who,Nathan: [00:46:15] Right. Yeah. I w I have more airline points now that I know what to do with that. I'm just dreamingDan: [00:46:21] yeah,Nathan: [00:46:21] what I could possibly redeem them for. So,Dan: [00:46:24] totally. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. So that'll be a good, a good thing for me to restart with pretty soon. but anyway, so yeah, tool sets like I think sub stacks fine. It's all in one. I like controlling the way my homepage looks. I like being able to pick out. Fonts from an independent font Foundry in New Zealand and use those for my website.I like being able to tweak the WordPress template when I want to tweak it. And I was able to put together kind of a stack of, of tools that,syou know, and I happened to see them in use for. Stratec Curry and for Kottke and some other sites and, and, you know, member full, thankfully worked straight out of the box.There were no challenges implementing it. it's actually a very, very well made tool. And so I was very happy with that, that stack that I was using MailChimp,sWordPress member, full and Stripe. I have no. Secret desires to, to move off or anything like that. Like it's all, it's all great. I think interesting because it has massively lowered the technical and kind of infrastructure,sbarrier to entry.And I think it is allowing folks who are, you know, either less technical or just have no interest in running tools to start newsletters and. you know, and, and build subscription and membership based businesses. So I'm all for it. I think it's great. It's hopefully putting some pressure on member fold to improve their product.I love competition,sespecially in the, in the marketplace for tools. And will it grow into, you know, the valuation, it needs to make Andreessen Horowitz a bunch of money?sI would say there's not a clear yes or no answer to that yet. We'll see. But,syou know, I'm, I'm glad they're doing what they're doing.Nathan: [00:48:20] Yeah. So since you've been writing about tech for a long time,sI'd love your take on sub stack versus media. Right. Cause I feel like four years ago, five years ago, medium started this, this big rise. and actually when you look at the numbers from the medium puts out and they're still growing like crazy, we just are all I'll speak for myself.I have this perception, you know, that some of the people who were Yes they a lot of Dan: [00:48:42] people Nathan: [00:48:42] two years ago are now writing on sub stack. So I'm curious as to your take as to why, you know, what, what medium potentially missed and what sub stack is capitalizing on.Dan: [00:48:53] Yeah, well, first let's caveat that like medium probably only still exists and only was able to raise the amount of money it was able to raise because of Williams is the founder and CEO. And, you know, the fact that he built blogger and Twitter,sgives him the ability to raise capital and operate at a loss and just kind of figure things out because he's at Williams and he wants to, and,sthat's fine with me.I, you know, I, I probably had a. You know, at first I was really intrigued by medium because they put so much effort into a really great offering tool. Which is something that most publications and content management systems don't really,sit just, you know, you're, you're stuck using a commodity Wiziwig editor or, you know, WordPress now has, has many years later now tried to do their thing with Gutenberg, which I don't love, but I tolerate. but yeah, medium was really special because it put effort into the offering tool and the reading tool. And the idea was let's democratize publishing tools and let anyone write whatever they want. they they've gone back and forth now several times with owned and operated content or licensed content, you know, they were powering the ringer when it launched. sand they have since hired some really, really talented teams of journalists who work for medium writing publications, like one zero and marker, and a bunch of things like that. So it's been interesting to see how, you know, you even say that they compete with their own. Publications now in some ways by,sby hoping to command more and more of,suh, of the attention by their owned and operated properties, or at least using that as kind of the, the thing that, that brings people in.And then perhaps either, you know, sort of like a, you know, any recommendation and algorithm then recommends cheaper content to people over time. Et cetera. Some of that won't happen with medium because media, sorry with sub stack, because sub stack isn't run by ed Williams. although I think the sub stack folks have, have done a pretty good job so far kind of building, building,sprominence and getting attention. sI think. To me, one of the more interesting questions is at what point does Substack kind of start becoming competition for some of its writers? you know, is there a big bundle at some point that Substack says, okay, for a hundred bucks a year, everyone gets access to all of our publications and they can't opt out of that.Or, you know, if they do opt out of it, we're not going to include them in our recommendation algorithm. So many things, I mean, should, should sub stacks include, should you be forced to include links to other Substacks at the end of your newsletters? Should you, you know, should you build awareness for other publishers on the network because you're part of sub stack.Are you, do you own your brand or is Substack the brand that you're contributing to? There are a lot of there's nuances to all of those things, but it's a question of. You know, are you really running an independent publishing business by using Substack Or are you just kind of, and they're never going to say this like building up their machine that then they will use to build something way bigger than the sum of all of its parts. sthat's an execution thing. That's a, that's a product vision thing. I won't pretend that anyone's figured all that out yet. You know, a lot of that stuff could happen. None of it could happen. We'll see, but so far, I would say, like, if you'd asked me a year ago, what I thought of sub SAC, I would have said, they're not doing a good job, getting prominent people using sub stack in the media industry.And I would say that a year later, like they did a really good job last year, getting people Nathan: [00:52:46] two years Dan: [00:52:47] Casey Newton and Maddie Blasius,sand other folks to, you know, set up shop on sub stack. And there were, you know, there were. Sub stack originals, like,syou know,sI think he did as the name of it. Like there were, there were folks like that,slong before, of course,syou know, the biggest one or one of the biggest ones was cynicism, which was,syou know,suh, China newsletter that,sthe guy who, who founded it, whose name I'm blanking out right now was an angel investor in sub stack.And they kind of built it for him. those things have, have existed, but what sub stack has done, I would say. Pretty much about as well as I would say they could have done last year was get people to leave their cushy, highly paid jobs at the Vox media is of the world to start sub stacked newsletters.And we'll see what that looks like in a year or two. We'll see what the churn looks like. You know, I've heard secondhand that they're kind of giving,shealthy advances to those folks and kind of guaranteeing them some revenue. I don't know what that looks like in a couple of years, how much those people like that job in two years, I still love mine two years in.It's the best job I've ever had. I want to be doing this, you know, for many, many more years. but we'll see. I don't know. It's certainly not for everyone.Nathan: [00:54:06] Yeah, that makes sense. So, I imagine running the new consumer for awhile, you have,sa good number of friends who come to you. And at various times ask like, should I start a paid newsletter? What advice do you have for me? And what do you tell them? Is it a path they should take? And if so, what, what are a few of the things that you're like, okay, you got to get this part right.Dan: [00:54:26] I mean, if you like controlling everything about your life and your time, it's great. If you love the idea of having. Influence over the way that your content, you know, not only the, what's, what you write, but how it's presented and how people engage with it. you have that ability in a way that you would never have working at a traditional journalism outlet. swhat I would say is you better be ready to do customer service all the time. You are, you know, asking people to update their credit card number in the backend politely you are. You know, dealing with people who want a deal or, you know, some custom version of the subscription all the time, you were trying to upsell people to team memberships and that kind of stuff.If you, if you enjoy that. And I actually really do, you know, I worked in retail in college. I love kind of that customer service and sales elements of it. I wouldn't want that to be the whole job. And that's why I never kind of worked in the business side of media, but I love having to me like the, the.The fact that my job has a little bit of sales and a little bit of customer service and a little bit of product and a little bit of design and a little bit of tech and a lot of editorial and some marketing and all that kind of stuff. Like to me, that's super fascinating. And you have to do all of those things and you have to do them pretty well to succeed. sso far I've done them well enough,sand hope to get better at all of those things. If you don't want that though, then don't touch it. Like it's not for you. And yeah. Sub stack is kind of trying to. Automate or at least take over some of those functions, but it is your responsibility over time. So if you don't want to do that, then, then stay away from it.You can, I advise everybody to start a free newsletter and keep your friends and followers up, you know, up to date on what you're working on. I think everybody should have that, whether they work in media or any field,sthere's no reason not to. And it can only be helpful for your career. And especially if you work in publishing or media or journalism, but you know, that that is an entirely different thing than sending twice or three times a week, or even for,syou know, a high quality professional thing,sto people who are paying you.Nathan: [00:56:48] Yeah that makes a lot of sensesas we start to wrap up, we got a bunch of questions on Twitter and I'd love to run through some of those and a little rapid Dan: [00:56:55] Yeah Nathan: [00:56:56] They're not necessarily all about newsletters, but,sJohn's asking as a fellow Angeleno, who also lived in New York before, we'd love to hear your thoughts on West coast versus East coast media.What's different, you know, what, what have you noticed.Dan: [00:57:11] I mean, it's kind of,sit's kind of a hard time to answer that question because I feel like I don't live anywhere right now. Cause I basically just live in my house. sthere's there's no media scene happening anywhere at the moment.Nathan: [00:57:27] That makes sense.Dan: [00:57:29] what I, what I, you know, my wife and I moved here this last summer for mostly personal reasons.Like we just like it here. We had spent a lot of time out here. I think the startup and entrepreneurship scene in Los Angeles. Has a ton of potential. I think it's very interesting. you know, the fact that Hollywood is here with, with such great creative talent and intellectual property and, you know, knowledge about distribution and marketing and sales, and most importantly, like making content that people love emotionally and,syou know, invest so much of their time and spirit in.I think it's something that. You know, we can learn from, I, you know, and then the New York media world is so dominated by decades of legacy, print and broadcast, and now online media. but I think COVID is, you know, it's, it's not fair to compare anything right now. Everything is kind of, I think we're figuring out a new reality over the next few years.I think there's great potential in LA. I love that the ringer was started here. I love it. There are some really interesting publications being started here. I think, you know, some of the world's next great media companies could be built in LA, but, you know, they could also be built anywhere.Nathan: [00:58:48] Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Matt's asking what weird thing about consumers. Did you learn spending a lot of time in Paris and TokyoDan: [00:58:55] Hi, Matt. thanks for the question. yeah, I, I travel a ton before this,sbefore COVID, I hope to travel a ton afterwards. we did live in Paris for a few months, two years ago. I try to get to Japan once or twice a year. You know, I think for me, it's just kind of being able to have the privilege of just observing how people in, in different places and cultures do things. syou know, my, my background is writing about technology and I try to think of technology less as an industry and more as. What I call a layer on life. So seeing how people in Japan adopted, you know, card-based,sSuica payments way before we had Apple pay or even contactless payments here in the U. or,syou know, I love going to London and seeing all the, the design and packaging design that on consumer products there that is, feels just much more vibrant than a lot of the.Big consumer packaged good brands had been doing in the US for a long time. I loved living in Paris and kind of getting to experience the old school way of, you know, buying essentially groceries, you know, every single day for that night's dinner. but also, you know, seeing, seeing some sort of models that did not really exist in the US yet.So Travel just helps broaden perspective. I would say. I think travel is, is great for that for. Not just my line of work, but, but really everyone just getting to kind of see how things are done in different places. sometimes in ways that are super unique to that place. And then sometimes in ways that they could grow and scale around the world,Nathan: [01:00:42] Nice. Okay. Last question. Donna veers asking, what would you do differently if you had to start over? I assume that means start over with like the paid newsletter.Dan: [01:00:53] life or the publication.Nathan: [01:00:54] you're like, well in middle school, I would have no, I, I, I think he means with the publication. [01:01:00]Dan: [01:01:00] zero things where I'm like, man, you really screwed that up. you know, I was lucky on day one to have enough people sign up that I knew it would be my job for the next several months. And then I was lucky in year one, that enough people signed up that it became my job, you know? Indefinitely. I don't want to say permanently because what's what is permanence? sso there's nothing where I'm like, man, you really screwed that up. I think there, you know, one thing I, I wonder about is for example, and maybe you have the data to help me figure this out is like, should I be sending out newsletters on a predictable schedule every single week right now? I. Follow a kind of follow my productivity.I send out a newsletter when it's done. And then,sor I usually schedule it for the next morning because people don't need to know what time I finish it, but,sat nighttime, but, [01:02:00]syou know, would I be, would it matter materially if, if I were sending out newsletters, every, let's say Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday morning, or is it okay with the fact that I send it out?Kind of on a, on a, I don't want to say haphazard basis, but it's, it's not as,sas predictable, you know, Are newsletters the kind of things where people want to compartmentalize a certain time of the day or of the week to enjoy them and read them or are they happy to get it? When news breaks, which is kind of the model that I had had been following with most of my career, which is if there's news, you better get it out there immediately because someone else is going to, if you don't.So that's one of the things that I think, I think about a lot. you know, I, I think my kind of happy medium is like, try to be predictable, but don't like, let it rule your life. but I don't know. I'm curious what you see.Nathan: [01:02:53] I think all things being equal, the predictability is better than not. And so not only day of the week, but also when we've talked about this on some other episodes, getting to a precise time of like 10:00 AM Eastern, every Tuesday, someone can look for that,sthat article to show up. and you'll be right there in the, in your inbox.That said it's important to ask. What's the point of this newsletter right? Are you, are you as the author there to serve the newsletter or is the newsletter there to serve you? And so I think the point that you made of like, look, this is my creative schedule. This is when I'm inspired to write. And yes, I'm always going to meet the promise, I've made to the audience of two posts a week, or, you know, whatever that is.I'm going to hold up my end of the bargain, but it might not be worth it for me. to ha feel the additional pressure to hit an exact time for the somewhat marginal gains of,sthe predictability from the audience side. So all things being equal,san exact time every week, I think would help engagement, but I don't know that the trade-offs are worth it.Dan: [01:04:02] So that's something I'm going to figure out, but yeah, I mean, other than that, like the only other big thing would be, not, you know, you only launch once. This is the advice I give to people. You only launch once. So really make as big a deal out of the launches you can. And even when I launched, like one-off things like the consumer trends report, a launch date is, is launch day and you better put all the effort into that, that you can,sSo that, you know, like I was very pleased with my launch, but the question is like, could it have been 10 times bigger if I did this other thing or that other thing who knows?I don't know. There's no way to go back and figure that out, but it kind of is something I think about as I'm launching new components or new new things. And then the other big question is like, should I have launched with a free tier and what I have captured a hundred thousand emails in the first week.I have no idea. I don't know. I know that a hundred. I think it was over a hundred thousand people visited the site. So I wasn't going to get all of those people, but probably more of them than. So you know, then simply the people who signed up for paid, but you know, in this, in this world, you can only think going forward.I try not to dwell on the past of, of kind of how I did things and just try to get better all the time. Do interesting things, keep it fresh, be interesting every day forever. And so you know, and the biggest, the biggest takeaway is I love this model. I think it's great. It's not great for everyone. It's great for me.I'm gonna stick with it. And I hope people come along with me for it.Nathan: [01:05:37] Sounds good. Well, where should people go to follow along and hear your story and support your work.Dan: [01:05:45] So The New Consumer is newconsumer.com and also, @newconsumer on Twitter and Instagram. My personal accounts are all @fromedome since III world in 1995. So you can find me on all this on social media as @fromedome. And @pointsparty, if you want to, someday in the future, read for free about credit card and travel points.Nathan: [01:06:13] Sounds good. Well, thanks for joining me. 

INDIVISIBLE CHICAGO PODCAST SHOW NOTES FOR MONDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2020 1. The only thing the GOP oppo research has done so far is demonstrate Joe Biden’s decency. Last week, a Trump aide compared Biden to Mr. Rogers. Yeah? So? 2. After a months-long hiatus, Indivisible Chicago is heading back (safely) to the doors. ICA board member Denise Poloyac joins to discuss. Sign up for canvassing, phone banking, and more at 3states1mission.com. 3. All roads to the White House lead through Wisconsin, but there is also much at stake for the state—and the country—in the Wisconsin State Assembly. Deb Andraca is a candidate in the north Milwaukee suburbs trying to flip that district blue. Learn more and get involved at debforwi.com.

On this week's Stack podcast, check out reviews for: Seven Secrets #1, Dark Nights Death Metal #3, Something is Killing the Children #9, Empyre #5, The Flash #759, Adventureman #3, Marauders #11, Judge Dredd: False Witness #2, Wonder Woman #760, Big Girls #1, The Immortal Hulk #36, Stealth #4, The Amazing Spider-Man #46, Transformers: Galaxies #8 and Excellence #9. SUBSCRIBE ON RSS, ITUNES, ANDROID, SPOTIFY, STITCHER OR THE APP OF YOUR CHOICE. FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, AND FACEBOOK. SUPPORT OUR SHOWS ON PATREON. TRANSCRIPT: Alex:         What's up, you all? Welcome to The Stack, I'm Alex. Justin:       I'm Justin. Pete:         I'm Pete. Alex:         And on The Stack, we're talking about a bunch of books that have come out this very week. Kicking it off with a big new book from BOOM! Studios, Seven Secrets #1, written by Tom Taylor and illustrated by Daniele Di Nicuolo. Pete, I want to go to you first, because I was very surprised to hear, I think this was your favorite book of the week. Is that right? Pete:         It really was. Justin:       Yes. Pete:         It is. It's a great book, I love the art. It's a very interesting idea, that there are seven secrets and they are highly guarded secrets. And people kind of like dedicate their lives to them. There's this kind of like societies built around, protecting the secrets. I think it's just a very creative idea, and fun, amazing art. A lot of action right out of the box. So, yeah, I think this is a great book. I'm very excited for more. Justin:       Yeah, I agree. This is really fun. It reminded me a lot of the Iron Fist run, that I want to say, Matt Fraction did which dealt with the… Alex:         I think it was Fraction and (Ed) Brubaker, right? Justin:       Yes, yes, that is accurate. Which got into all the different sort of fighting squads in doing battle throughout all of time. It has that same sort of dynamic art style, and feels like it's very numerical, you're chasing very specific things. So, I really like this. Alex:         Yeah, I thought this is great as well. I mean Tom Taylor is such, such a reliable writer and Daniele Di Nicuolo almost has like this Proto, Manga style in a way, where feels more detailed than that in terms of the fight, but the propulsive nature of the action suggests that a little bit. There's also a really good emotional underpinning, that I won't spoil for any or somebody who's planning on reading of the book. My only little quibbled with it… Pete:         Hey, watch yourself. Alex:         All that… It reminded me a little bit in pacing of Wynd from BOOM! Studios, another book we really liked a lot. But both of them felt like… Just to take like a very broad view, back in the day, you had these ‘done in one issue', right? People still do aim for done in one issue, then you had (Brian Michael) Bendis came along with Ultimate Spider-Man and this whole decompression, and aiming for the trade thing. Both Wynd and Seven Secrets which I both like a lot, seem almost different in a way where it's not decompression for the trade, so much as here are the first 20 pages of the story. Where they ended places, where it's like not even the of a chapter, exactly, so much is it almost feels in the middle of a chapter. and I need to read the second issue to understand more of what's going on. I don't know if you guys got that same feeling for that. Justin:       No, I hear you. Especially in Wynd. Pete:         That's a very weird thing to say, but, okay. Justin:       No, but I get it from a storytelling perspective, it's like we've talked about writing for the trade for almost the entire run of our podcast, and this is taking it to the next level. It's like literally writing the trade, and then chopping it up with like a butcher's knife, and here's the first issue. Alex:         Yeah, which is, it's a good first issue, and I highly recommend picking it up. But it just, it needs more, for me. Pete:         I don't… Yeah, I disagree. I think the ending was a fucking crazy ending and it's a kind of fun place to leave it off until next time. Alex:         It's good. It's a good book. Definitely pick it up. That's why we wanted to lead with it. Next up, Dark Nights: Death Metal #3 from DC Comics written by Scott Snyder and art by Greg Capullo. Talk about wild. This is a wild ride to through the DC Universe. The heroes of the DC Universe are being completely beaten down by the Batman Who Laughs, who now is the Dark Knight, I think he's called. Justin:       The Darkest Knight. Alex:         Yeah, there we go… Because he has Doctor Manhattan powers. They're trying to stave off the death of the Multiverse as usual, as you do. And so, they've invaded Apocalypse to go and rescue Superman in this issue. Some other things happen. How'd did you feel about this? Pete:         Now this is just a fun comic. Like by the title it's like, Dark Nights: Death Metal. Like let's take this, what we know and love, and just turn it to 11. You got para Robins; you've got like insane crazy ideas. Everything is fun and over the top about this. You've got Superman with like knuckle-dusters on. I mean this is just crazy fun that like you know, just makes the young kid inside of you excited about what you're seeing on the page. [00:05:00] Justin:       The way you even structure your review, Pete, reminds me of Stefon on SNL, which is actually sort of a good description of this book. But it's like you want to go to the craziest night club in the DC Universe. [laughter] Pete:         Yeah. Justin:       You've got Batman a dinosaurs, you've got a dwarf riding another Batman. And that's literally what this is, it's like a million ideas jammed up in a blender and spread out over a crisis style storyline line. And I like it as well. It's like they took a hammer to the Elseworld's annual crossover from like the late ‘90s, smashed up all those bits, jammed them together, and we're like, “This is an event we're actually going to spend some time in.” And this issue, especially, I thought was super fun. All the Superman stuff was great. The Mister Miracle escape, all that. I… Pete:         Yeah. The use of Mister Miracle is amazing. The dark side of Batman was crazy. Like seeing Wonder Woman with like a metal ass chainsaw. It was just so badass. Justin:       I could do with a few less Batman, let me just say that. Alex:         Yes, it is… We're reaching critical mass with Batman, and I think they would kind of realized that to the point where Harley Quinn is like, “Man, he's really good with branding”, and just calling that out. And I think like that's the sort of cheeky self-awareness that makes this work, because it's Scott Snyder realizing how ludicrously over the top it is. Everything that's going on and leaning into that, versus saying, “No, no, no. This is serious stuff here. Okay, there's a lot of Batman.” It doesn't feel… The stakes are high, but it doesn't feel serious at any point, and I think that's good. Like that gets into you. One of my favorite characters from Scott Snyder's run, we get Jarro the pint-sized Starro [overlap talk] who think Batman is his dad. Pete:         Come on. Alex:         It's great. It's super fun, and cute. Justin:       It's so funny. Alex:         That's enjoyable. I do want to ask you guys… Pete:         The all hands in moment was fun. Alex:         Super fun. I did feel like this issue was a little more expository than I would've liked. There was a lot of standing around and be like, “Okay, real quick, here's what we need to do, and here's what's going on. This is complicated. I'm just going to bring you up to speed”, in between the fun moments. But there was a hint that there's something else going on with both Batman and Superman, where they turn to each other in the middle, after they freed Superman. And I think it's Superman says, “Does Diana know about you?” And Batman says, “No. Does she know about you?” So, what do you think's going on with them? What is the deal? Justin:       I don't know, that moment it stressed me out little bit because it… To me, not to be the Pete in the situation… Pete:         Yeah. Justin:       But it made me feel like it's going to be like, “Did you tell her that this is all a simulation that's happening?”  “No, I didn't tell her. Did you?” It felt like a ‘too cool for school secret' that I don't want to disrupt the flow just when I'm really getting into the flow of the book. Pete:         Yeah, yeah. Alex:         Yeah. I could see something like that. I mean my big thought is that Batman is already dead. That he died, that's why he's running around with the Black Lantern Ring. That's why he was able to escape the omega beams, that hit him from the Dark Side Batman. I don't know what Superman's secret is, but to me that feels like the most reasonable thing that could happen to him, and that would be sad for Diana because they essentially have already lost. Pete:         Well, but like this is, it sort of exists in the dark Multiverse. So, it's the flip flop of everything. So, maybe that's the win, the fact that they're already dead or there's something, where it's going to be something with emotional resonance, like them being dead, but that is actually the victory they find or the loophole they escape through. Alex:         I mean, I think you kind of just said this, but what if the whole thing is in the Dark Multiverse? What if they're not in the Real Multiverse at all but this is just where the heroes have lost already, and this the flip side of the story to show them the way that things could've have gone horribly wrong. Justin:       Yeah, I mean that to me… Because all this hype about like this is the real continuity. I'm like, “I don't need that.” This is just as good a story if it takes place in a Dark Multiverse, but I think what emerges from that I guess is what the lesson is. It's are we going to get this Superman in the world or some version of these characters. Alex:         Good fun stuff. Moving on, Something is Killing the Children #9 from BOOM! Studios written by James Tynion IV, illustrated by Werther Dell'Edera. If you happen to read this book Something is Killing the Children, it's a bunch of monsters. They like to eat children. And there's one woman who may or may not be able to stop them. In this issue, she trying to appeal to a young boy who has previously been attacked by the monsters to try and act as bait for them. Man, this book is so good. So, well drawn, so well written. This is almost the opposite of what I was saying with Seven Secrets where it's like not a lot happens every issue but it feels so weighted every single time. [00:10:06] Justin:       Yeah, there's just a creeping dread all the time, and we get little dribs and drabs of backstory each time. It's really interesting, and also really horrifying, the stuff that happens. The adults feel like they're crippled and stuck in place the entire time. There's a whole section about like, “I'm just handing out beers, because I don't know what else to do.” While the kids are either being murdered or trying to act against these monsters. And the sort of reveal, at the end, is interesting and maybe spins the story in a different direction. Pete:         Yeah, I mean this is a very interesting comic. Each issue has been a fun surprise of like, what's kind of in store. In this one, we kind of get her back story, the main hunter's backstory and it's very cool the way it's told. I really love the paneling and the art of this book. It's just very unique and cool. And I think this is one of my favorites in this stack. It's really great every time we get to read this. Alex:         I agree. Let's move back to Marvel for Empyre#5 story by Dan Slott and Al Ewing, written by Al Ewing, art by Valerio Schiti. And when I say move back to Marvel, this is the first time we're talking about Marvel in The Stack. I thought here's another on… [chuckle] So, this is the second to the last issue of Empyre, Marvel's big events, which is plants versus zombies. In this, the Cotati, a plant race, has been attacking Earth. They want to take over the Earth and the entire universe. The Kree and Skrull are trying to stop them. But in the middle of all of that whole Hulkling has been leading the Kree and the Skrull army, except not really. There's actually somebody masquerading as him, Wiccan who secretly married him. Figured that out the last issue. That's where they pick up this issue, with both that, and the fact, that She-Hulk, who has been taken over by one of these plant creatures, and is supposedly dead is attacking the Thing. So, lots of stuff going on here. As we round up this event, how are you feeling about it? Pete:         Well this issue, I'm like, “All right now, things are happening.” Like things are really cooking now. I feel like I'm just starting to get into this event. But this was a great issue; a lot happened. It's sad though we didn't address the She-Hulk stuff yet, but I feel like this had a great amount of kind of like story mixed with action and the weight of everything happening. I really like this issue. Justin:       I like this issue too. It really is… I'm so surprised it's ending already. It does feel like it's just ramping up. It feels so short to go right into the final movement right here. I really like that they folded in the wedding between Hulkling and Wiccan, as sort of a main story point. Like that feels really good. But I feel like I need two more issues to really elevate the stakes. And if the She-Hulk death is like the whole thing here, it's like… I don't know, it feels a little disjointed. Alex:         It's… Pete:         I… Oh, I'm sorry… Alex:         All I was going to say is, this struck me over the past couple of issues but it really started to hit me with this one. And I know this isn't a TV show, so it's the wrong term, but there's not enough sets in this book. Like it takes place… Pete:         Ha… Weird. Alex:         It takes place on the alien ship mostly, where they really haven't left the throne room that Hulkling is in. And then there's a couple of glimpses of other places that they go to that mostly seem motivated by what's happening in the spin offs side stories. So, we get a bunch of stuff at Wakanda, but it's more like here's an overview of what's happening in other places, and then Tony Stark and Reed Richards are just hanging out in Avengers Mountain and putting together a suit. So, like you guys are saying every issue of this is good and fun. Dan Slott and Al Ewing know what they're doing. Valero Schiti's art is very good superhero art, but there's not a lot going on, which is surprising. Pete:         Yeah… So first of, I want to say I'm sorry Wakanda is not enough for you. Secondly, I love… Alex:         Hey, what can you, Wakanda do about that? Pete:         Ahhhhhh… Justin:       Oh, boy. Alex:         Giddy-up… [chuckles] Pete:         Anyways… I really love The Thing stuff in here like this. Like when you're talking about a classic fight and this whole thing about giving up. I thought that was a perfect kind of monologue for The Thing to have. I really thought it was a cool bad ass moment. Alex:         Yeah, I agree The Thing stuff is good, the character stuff is good, like I was saying it's well written, it's well drawn. I just want a little more out of a big cosmic event. Justin:       Yeah, of course, the small moments are great and you would expect that out of these writers, but like when you think about the great epic crossovers like Infinity Gauntlet, every issue a massive event happened, and you really felt the movement of the book. [00:15:00] And to your point Alex, there aren't a lot of sets; the movement has been very small. And you want those big sweeping moments like remember that… I want to say fifth issue of Infinity Gauntlet, when all of the beings of the universe showed up and it was like, “holy shit”. It felt huge, and this feels small. Alex:         Maybe part of it is the name. They've been selling it as this big event. They've been building up for a while. They called it Empyre, and so far, the Cotati haven't done anything. Like they're trying to take over Earth, but we don't get to actually see them really taking over Earth. Not to armchair write this but I want to see them take over Earth in issue one, and then expand outward from that like what happens next how what happens when they start to actually take over the universe make this a big thing and it just I don't know it feels small. Next up, Dryad #4 from Oni Press, written by Curtis Wiebe and illustrated by Justin Osterling. We launched this in a live show, but we are setting up an interview with the creative team. So, check for that in your local Comic Book Club feed. But this book is great and wild, every issue. We talked about it as the heir to Saga very purposely. I think, in the promotional materials, they call it the Saga Continues for the next issues. But if you haven't been reading, it started off as a fantasy story. It's about two parents, take their kids, hide out in a fantasy style town. Turns out, it's not really a fantasy world; it's actually a tech world with some fantasy looking creatures. Magic has disappeared, except the dad actually has magic. And last issue, they got picked up by a mercenary team, and taken back to the city that they've fled from, that's where they had this issue. Things go terribly wrong for there. I just don't know what this book is, from issue to issue, and I love it. I love it. [chuckle] Justin:       Yeah, it's mixing up a lot of stuff in a good way though it's moving through it very specifically in a smart way. I'm totally on board with it. The Saga comparison is great. I that we've made that… I think it also reminds me of Ascender and Descender as well; the image book. Because it is blending that science and magic worlds. Pete:         Yeah, I just think it's very interesting the way each issue is so different. This one is very action packed and a lot of crazy stuff going on. So, it's very cool when you pick up a book and you think you're like you have an understanding of it and it still surprises you. Justin:       Yep. Alex:         Good stuff. Let's move on to The Flash #759, from DC Comics, written by Joshua Williamson art by Rafa Sandoval and Scott Kolins. This kicking off finish line, which is technically Joshua Williamson's, I believe, last arc on The Flash. Something he teased way back when he was on our live show. So, this is something he's been building to for a really long time. Reverse Flash, Professor Zoom, has taken over Barry Allen's body, stranded him in the Speed Force, and meanwhile, he's trying to turn all of his friends against him. I know you guys aren't really into the speedsters. I, of course, enjoyed this issue because I love the speedsters. Love Bart Allen, like seeing him interacting with Barry and everybody else. What'd you guys feel about this one? Pete:         Well, I felt like we had, the art's unbelievable. And then, we had like an evil Flash messing with a younger big haired Flash, and then all old timey Flash was like, “Leave them damn kids alone.” Alex:         Oh, it was great, what a great cliff-hanger. Justin:       Yep, what a great summary of the book. Almost like a live reading of it. [chuckles] Alex as such a fan of the speedsters, does this make you like do wind sprints or does this make you sort of speed up in your own life. Alex:         I never stop moving when I read this book. Pete:         Wow. Alex:         Like I'm just, I'm going, going, going, the entire time. Justin:       Always on your treadmill that doesn't travel through time. Your very terrestrial… Alex:         My comic treadmill. [overlap talk] Justin:       Ah, that's good stuff. Pete:         Oh, boy. Justin:       I like this. I love Impulse, one of my favorite characters in the original comic, way back in the day. So, it's great to see him here and sort of getting a little bit of an emotional moment, which I think is something that's been missing from the character of Bart Allen for a while. It's sad to see Barry Allen being such a jerk. Alex:         Yep. There you go… Next up, Adventureman #3 from Image Comics written by Matt Fraction, pencils and colors by Terry Dodson, inks by Rachel Dodson. This about a woman who discovers that the old timey pulp hero, she loves and obsessed with, was actually real. She becomes the heir to his power and his mysteries and everything else. In this issue, she's dealing with that in some very weird ways. [00:20:01] As it turns out, she's just getting real buff and larger. And getting information that is powered by the pulp stories that powered Adventureman. This is great. I love seeing Matt Fraction just having fun and also clearly just leaning into letting the Dodson's do their stuff. Pete:         Yeah, yeah. This is what, I mean if you're going to say… The art is worth picking this up alone. I mean this is definitely… Alex:         If I was going say that Pete? Pete:         If anybody was going to say it. I'm just saying… Justin:       If any one of the three of us were to hypothetically say that… [chuckle] Let's call it a catch phrase. Pete:         Yeah. I feel like… This story is good, but really, it's just fantastic art, and it's so weird the way we're kind jumping between worlds and stuff. But I'm very interested in the story. I think it moves really well. We're kind of finding things out with the main character, which is cool. But yeah, it's interesting. I'm curious to see how this kind of unfolds. Justin:       The main character grows 15 inches in her time. What would happen with you guys if one of you or both of you grew 15 inches Alex:         Whew. I would probably scratch against the ceiling, first of all, in this basement where I'm taping right now. Justin:       [chuckle] That's right, because you're already six two, right? Alex:         Yeah, I'm very tall, as you guys know. [chuckes] Justin:       Yeah. Pete:         Yep. Justin:       Maybe you have grown this much. We don't even know. Alex:         That'll probably hurt a lot, right? Justin, you probably know this, but when my kids grow, they go crazy, like literally, insane. Justin:       Yeah… When children grow, they scream the entire time, right? Alex:         Yup, pretty much. Justin:       That's what happening with my kids… Pete, if you grew, you'd be mad, though, because you like to be Wolverine sized. Pete:         Yeah, I like to be short. But I would say if I would've have grown 15 inches maybe like during high school, that would've been glorious. Really could've changed my volleyball career. Alex:         Too many inches… Too many inches, I don't like it. Justin:       Also, I'd like a longer definition of volleyball career, eventually, but that's cool… It's cool for now. I like this comic a lot. I think we've given sort of the crown of cleanest comic to a TV or movie adaptation to Kieron Gillen's Once and Future. I think we can share that crown with this book. It feels like very much writing it for the eventual TV show or movie that this would become. Alex:         Yeah, and Matt Fraction and Kelly Sue DeConnick have that TV production arm, Neutral Milk Hotel or whatever it's called… Justin:       [chuckle] Whoa… Hipster slam… Pete:         Hipster slam… Alex:         Yuhhh… Got you guys, know I love you. I think you're amazing. We're happy over your house, once. It was very nice. Marauders #11 from Marvel Comics, written by Gerry Duggan and art by Stefano Caselli. Pete:         The Duggs! Alex:         This is… Man, this cover, so nervous with this cover. You know I love the Kate Pryde, man. I was really nervous, man, Pete:         Yeah, man. Alex:         I was really freaking out, it was tweaking here. Justin:       It's game over man. Alex:         Game over, Red. So, Kate Pryde was killed off a couple of issues back, by Sebastian Shaw on a boat. She wasn't coming back. She wasn't allowed to Krakoa. They couldn't reincarnate her in a new body. That's what this issue is dealing with. I'll spoil it right here… Three, two, one… Kate Pryde comes back! They figure out how to get her back. It turns out that she wasn't able to phase through their eggs, and all that Emma needs to do is pull her through. I'll tell you what, I love that Gerry Duggan is pushing the ‘frenemy-ship' or whatever you want to call it between Emma Frost and Kate Pryde. So much fun, I'm glad she's back. I know there's more mysteries to figure out but this a good book. I enjoyed it. Pete:         I got some questions. Alex:         Yeah, what up, Pete? Pete:         So, we get kind of, she has like a Viking funeral, do they purposely kind of make her look like Michael Jackson… In the boat? Or is that just me… Justin:       Let me ask you, Pete… Pete:         Like it was a weird choice, for she has like the kind of red jacket, and then the quarters over eyes or half dollars… Alex:         Oh yeah, like how Michael Jackson always had half dollars over his eyes? Pete:         No, but I mean it looks like a Michael Jackson outfit. Justin:       Like Captain Eel? Pete:         Yeah, I'm just… Maybe it's just me… Alex:         Okay. Pete:         But anyways… Justin:       Let me argue… Maybe say, Pete… I feel like maybe you're looking… If you guys have an X-Men book, you're maybe looking for something to… I believe it's called nit-pick? Pete:         Oh, interesting. Justin:       Or Pete-pick? Pete:         You know, I don't… Yeah, I mean, so we see a funeral, and then it's like me really like, “No, no… “ It was just the we didn't figure out the eggs part, right? Which, “Okay, cool, cool”  but then there was this weird moment where it was like, “Yeah, it took 18 eggs.”… “Oh, so she's 18 now?” Like that was a weird pervy moment. Alex:         Hold on. First of all, A) definitely misinterpreting that. But I did want to ask about that moment just because it's Nightcrawler calls out that they tried to resurrection her 18 times. I did a quick search for that because it seemed to me that was like some sort of religious thing that I wasn't picking up on. I couldn't find anything on it. I don't know if you guys know if there's anything from non-Judaism? I want to say Christianity or Catholicism… But something that is about 18 resurrections? Is there anything about that? Pete:         No. Not that I know… That's just why I thought it was something about her age or something because she's always been younger. Alex:         No, it's not about the age. It's definitely about like the 18 resurrections. So, I don't know if it means that there's like 18 Kate Pryde bodies out there that Nightcrawler's going to find, or if that is a specific reference to something. It was definitely a weird moment, but it was not a creepy age moment. Pete:         Okay, well it's definitely a weird moment that stuck out to me. Justin:       I would say we're not the most theological podcast hosts, when it comes to doing a deep dive on a religious reference. Alex:         Sure… Pizza priest though. Justin:       Pizza priest… No, pizza, pizza priest. Alex:         Yehey, pizza priest. Pete:         Yeah… Have a pizza priest. I'm not a regular priest. Justin:       Nice… I don't know the reference. I did like this book. I liked the position Kate Pryde had in the X-Men world where she was sort of ‘outsided' and not allowed. It's a good mystery. I don't know if that's over now, or what the deal is going forward. But I think this book is a fun sort of side book to the X-Men universe right now. Alex:         Yeah, I agree. Stefano Caselli's art is always good. Let's move on to Judge Dredd: False Witness #2 from IDW, story by Brandon Easton, art by Zei Kama, excuse me, Kei Zama. I think we have some pretty nice things to say about this book last time, which is why I thought it would be interesting to revisit. This is somebody on the outskirts, who lives in the wastelands outside of Mega-City One, comes into the city finds out that him and other people like him are being harvested. And that's where we pick up this issue. He continues to run very parallel to the storyline with Judge Dredd. But I like this book. I think, I'm surprised how much I like this book because I'm not the usual Judge Dredd fan. But I think it's doing a good job of channeling social commentary storytelling character along the way, even though you do have these two characters that really have not met yet at all. Justin:       I feel like a lot a book we'll talk about in a little bit, Transformers book, and a lot of like books that have been around for a long time that maybe need a little reinvention. I think there's been a lot of smart takes, and this feels like right in that line where it's like, “Let's look at these characters from a different angle and find a new story here.” I don't know what… so I like this. It remind me of a show called Exosquad… You guys ever watch Exosquad back in the day? Alex:         No… I've heard the name. Justin:       Pete, no? Pete:         Nothing. Yeah, I don't know what you're talking… Justin:       Cartoon… Very cool. Pete:         What's it about? Help me out. Justin:       It's a lot like, sort of pilots of these mech-suits. They have cool haircut. There's a lot of good relationships in it. It's fun. Pete:         Cool. Justin:       It's in the world in the sort of the style of Starcom, you ever watch that? Pete:         No. No. Justin:       I guess maybe I grew up in a different Multiverse. [chuckles] Alex:         Yeah. Pete:         Yeah. I guess so. Alex:         This does feel like stuff that is right across to play for you, Pete. I'm surprised you don't know it. Pete:         Yeah, yeah. I mean you can't watch every cartoon, I guess. Justin:       That's true. Pete:         Yeah, I would like to try, I would like to try, yeah. I just want this to kind of get going. I thought this was really cool comic I do like this, but I wanted the main characters to kind of come together a little bit it. It seemed a little too side story, but I really think it's very cool. Art's great. Alex:         Let's move on to something that was a huge surprise for me in a very pleasant way. Wonder Woman #760 from DC Comics, written by Mariko Tamaki, art by Mikel Janin. So, Wonder Woman is, at least initially, going up against Maxwell Lord, thinks Maxwell Lord is brain washing a bunch of people in the city. By the end, things seem to be going at a very different direction. Mariko Tamaki is… On such a roll. Justin:       Yeah. Alex:         Just with writing, with her storytelling, with every that's going on. This is one of the better Wonder Woman arcs I think I've read in a very long time. [00:30:04] I love that it's not mining the Greek Gods stuff anymore, or anything like that. But it still feels very emotionally grounded. And man, Mikel Janin's art is gorgeous. Pete:         So good. Justin:       Yeah, the art is so good in this. How about that cute rabbit… I mean damn. Alex:         Yes. Justin:       Yeah, Melanie the Rabbit, I believe is the name. Alex:         Yeah… I also want to call out the cover, which is one of the best covers I've seen in a really long time. Pete:         Yeah, I just Wonder Woman, like kind of talking shit to robots. I loved it. Justin:       Well what I liked about this and a lot of Mariko Tamaki's work is, rather than… I feel there's such a trend in trying to scoop up every aspect of the characters and trying to like mash it up and be like, “This is what it all means.” and I think that's just, it's so much work when this is just a great story that is like scoping up some aspects, and being like, “Here are the things about Wonder Woman I want to talk about,” and then telling that story. And I think this is great. If you're a fan of Alias, the (Brian Michael) Bendis book from back in the day, the Jessica Jones character…  I think feel like there's a connection point there, especially with the Purple Man stuff, in this book. Pete:         Yeah, yeah. You got the creepy mind control guy. But yeah, I really think the art is great. We get the pair of demons, there's a lot of fun stuff going on. But yeah, the writing is the real hero. This is very interesting. I'm excited to see where this goes. Alex:         Let's roll out to a new book from Image Comics, Big Girls #1, story and art by Jason Howard. This is about a world where some children are growing to gigantic size, men grow into monsters, women usually grow into gigantic helpful people… There's one… [chuckles] Justin:       That's such a true statement. Alex:         Yeah. A gigantic helpful woman who is trying to hold back the monsters. And that's basically what you get in the first issue, as well as some moral quandaries. I overall like this, but had some concerns about it. Curious to hear what you guys think though. Pete:         Yeah, there was a kind of a real fucked up moment in the book. Justin:       Yes. Pete:         That I was like, “Yeah, I don't know if you can come back from that.” But it's a fun premise. It's cool. The art's great. I'm excited to see where this goes but it's an interesting enough story that I'm definitely going to pick up the next issue. Justin:       Yeah, I agree that. It felt like, of all the comics we read and cite, it's so hard to have a premise that feels super fresh, and then executing it in a way that invites you in with the characters. And I think this book does a good job of that and it's a fun surprising idea, and it's such a visual idea that I think is well done. And the emotional hit that… I guess we're not spoiling… It was sort of harsh. Pete:         Yeah… It was very harsh Justin:       Especially, the way the story was told where that harsh moment happened, and then the reason why it happened came after, which I think was smart from a storytelling perspective, but a little more difficult to read. Pete:         Yeah. It was tough on the reader. Alex:         I'm curious to see where they go with this one, because my big concern about it was, I love the idea that men grow up to be monsters, women are the only people who could protect us… Like there's so much metaphor that you can mine there, and I think it hasn't quite gotten there yet and it also muddies the ground a lot with the reveal at the end of the issue, which again, I won't spoil here. So, it's going to be interesting to see what Jason Howard has to say with this comic, and how he says it. Particularly, because he is a man saying something about misogyny, so I don't know. There's a lot of opportunity with this book, and I'm very excited to see where it goes. Jason Howards aren't always very good, but again, I'm a little concerned/nervous about what direction it might head in. Justin:       I really thought earlier on, that you're going to say, “Oh, it's like men are from Mars and women, they're from Venus.” [chuckles] Alex:         Yeah. Have you thought about that?… Have you thought about it? Immortal Hulk #36 from Marvel, written by Al Ewing and art by Joe Bennett. Man, this book is fucked up bad. Oh my god. Justin:       Yeah. Alex:         It's fucked up… Hulk is now, Dumb Hulk, and Rick is evil, and turned into to a horrible monster. Absorbing Man is getting ripped into pieces. Horrible things are happening all the time. Pete:         I can't take this anymore… I'm tapping out. I want my Hulk back. I can't… This was cool for a little while, guys. But it's getting weird now. [chuckles] It's getting really weird now, guys. Justin:       I still love this book. I'm very excited for the story line coming with a leader; I feel like we're leading up to. [00:35:03] Pete:         Yeah. Justin:       But… Alex:         Well, I think the leader is inside of Rick, right? Justin:       Yeah, but it's like… Well the trap hasn't been fully sprung; I feel like. Alex:         Okay. Justin:       But I also think another title for this book would be, Everybody's Clay Face…? Pete:         Yeah. Justin:       In a lot of ways… And to Pete's point, how does Hulk come back from this and go back to being just a regular old dude? Pete:         I just… Yeah… I can't anymore. Alex:         I feel like they're already doing it though, right? Like there was no way they were going to keep Hulk out of crossovers and showing up in other books. I wish they had. I wish they could've kept it in this own pocket thing. But they've already had him show up, and be like, “Yeah, I'm the Asshole Hulk, let me help you.” [chuckles] It just doesn't quite work at all. But to your point, Justin… Like particularly, Joe Bennett's art is… Shade. The splash page towards the beginning that reveals the twisted monstrous Rick… Pete:         No… no… Alex:         Is nightmarish like literally out of a nightmare and it's… amazing. It's great stuff. Justin:       Yeah. Pete:         It's too much. Alex:         Stealth #4 from Image Comics. Pete:         They've gone too far. Alex:         [chuckle] Stealth #4 from Image Comics written by Mike Costa and art by Nate Bellegarde… I don't know why I can't pronounce that name. So, this is starting to wrap up. This story about a man who has this powerful like Dark Hawk-esk armor, the stealth armor. He is suffering for dementia. It may be because of the armor, maybe not. His son is trying to track him down and save him/help him/slash stop him Meanwhile, there's a two-faced… Half-faced, I guess, gangster… Pete:         Half a face. Alex:         Half a face, who's trying to kill him. This book is so good. And particularly, Nate Bellegarde's pacing… Pete:         Yeah. Justin:       Yeah. Alex:         That's between like amazing action and hilarious moments. Particularly in this issue, that are wonderful. Justin:       And just, there's a couple of panels… This guy gets shot, sort of halfway, maybe in the two thirds away through the book. And it's just… It's so surprisingly done that it really sticks with you. A lot of the angles that that he chooses to draw the characters from are so good. It's just a great book. Pete:         Yeah, it's really awesome. There's some real cool fight sequence stuff like this one guy gets his leg kicked in, that was really brutal. But also, what's tough for me is to see a sweet white Lincoln get destroyed. And that was that was tough. That was tough to watch. But this is a great book. Fun design on the villain, it keeps getting more and more interesting, and yeah, I'm very, very much enjoying this book. Alex:         Great stuff… Amazing Spider-Man #46 from Marvel written by Nick Spencer, and art by Marcelo Ferreira. It's continuing with the Sins Rising storyline where the Sin-Eater is back. Turns out the Sin-Eater is maybe not exactly what you think he is, and he is attacking villains. And in this issue, maybe be making them better, maybe making them worse, not entirely clear. Justin, you were very excited about this issue talk about it a little bit. Justin:       I can't believe the turn that Nick Spencer's taken this book on. After doing such a light hearted Spider-Man, and then now the Sin-Eater story, the set-up issues, and then getting here, it's like so much more topical, so much more like satirical. And it's just, these panels where Sin-Eater kills this villain and then we get this moment where the crowd starts clapping… It was devastating, and it felt like it just, it activated all of my stress about our world in a way. And Pete, to you, I don't know what you think about this. But it feels like an indictment of the Punisher, and that whole… His whole world… Pete:         Yeah, yeah. I mean they're like basically booing people who clap at violence. You know what I mean? But it's also tough because it's like there's violence in comics, and there's real life. But this is supposedly real life and they're saying that like people would enjoy killing in real life, which I don't think, if you like the Punisher that's not what you're saying in life. I mean there might be people out there like that. But I think it's nice to have a person like the Punisher fighting a good fight, instead of like going through things in normal way. It's a creative outlet for things and your anger, or this is saying people are too dark… [00:40:01] People are too fucked up, the world is too fucked up. And this is very depressing. I'm very surprised that you like this issue. This is my least favorite. You got Spider-Man kind of shaken to his core being like, “I can't believe everybody clapped. What kind of world this is? I don't feel like the quippy self, happy go lucky Spider-Man.” And it's kind of like the darkness of the world is affecting Spider-Man here. Justin:       I love that though. I think that is what… It feels like Nick Spencer is channeling the world around him, and being like, “This world feels darker than I ever thought it was.” And Spider-Man doesn't have a place in that world, in this world. And he's showing that in the story, and using this Sin-Eater as a way of talking about that, I think, is just so smart. I really love this story. Alex:         It's definitely very surprising and going in different directions. Let's move on and talk about Transformers Galaxies #8 from IDW, written by Sam Maggs, art by Beth McGuire-Smith and Umi Miyao. This is something that I think we were very surprised about the last issue. This is about a young Transformer on a ship that is escaping from Cybertron, turns out things are not exactly what they seem. This issue where he… He? She? I don't know, bro?… Yep… Pete:         It's a robot. Alex:         A robot has met up with Arcee and Greenlight to the Transformers, who revealed the truth about what's going on. And course, everybody is being brainwashed, they're trying to… they're the baddies, and yeah, that's kind what it follows. Another really good issue of this title just because it grounds the emotion of the Transformers which I am very impressed by. Justin:       Yeah, I agree. I love this. This feels like a Twilight Zone or a Black Mirror version of a Transformers story. It's tense. It's sort of stressful. It gets into like philosophy, religion, and it's just really well done. Pete:         Yeah, it's very interesting. It's cool, this kind of series, characters kind of find this information struggle within stuff. I think this as, it's hard because I keep wanting there to be more Transformers that I know, you know what I mean? They talk about Cybertron, and all that kind of stuff, and Primus… But like I keep wanting to see like a different Transformers that I know from the ‘80s, and from the cartoons, and stuff like that… But the fact that they're telling this kind of more original story is very cool. Justin:       You want them to turn into cars. Pete:         No, I just want like Laserbeak to be in the background, spying on them or you know something else. Justin:       Would you say there's more than meets the eye here? Pete:         Oh yeah, there is more. Justin:       One more question… Alex:         The thing I… Justin:       Oh, go ahead… You go ahead… Alex:         No, no, please I want to I hear your question. Justin:       No, it's just definitely unrelated [chuckle]. Alex:         My question is also unrelated, so you go ahead. Justin:       Okay, great. Well then, let me ask you… Pete, as a pizza priest, are you marrying slices back together or how does that work? Are you a priest, two slices of pizza? Or are you bringing the good word of pizza to the people? Pete:         I'm doing both. I am bringing slices together. I'm am also, trying to make sure that people know about the good pizza, are partaking in some good pizza. Alex:         Do you ever take two slices of pizza, and hold one on each hand, and say, “I now pronounce you”, and then slapped them together and say, “Calzone!” [chuckles] Pete:         No no, I wouldn't do that. That's sacrilege. Alex:         Got you… Back to the Transformer book, the main thing that I was thinking about the entire issue, do Transformers kiss? And when they kiss does it sound terrible? Like because they're two like… Justin:       Metal on metal. Alex:         Yeah, like two cars smashing into each other. Pete:         Yeah, but it doesn't sound bad to them. Alex:         Right, but would it sound bad to us humans? Pete:         Yes. Yeah, sure. Justin:       Like when cars kiss, we call it an accident. [chuckle] Pete:         Yeah, it's loud. Alex:         That's true. Last book we're talking about Excellence #9 from Image Comics created and written by Brandon Thomas, created in art by Khary Randolph. I know we have talked about every issue of this book. But every issue of this book is absolutely insane. Pete:         Phenomenal. Alex:         Oh my god, so good. Justin:       So, good. Alex:         This issue we have our main character who's been trying to start a magic revolution. Travels to a library to gather information, and finds out he is way out of his depth.  He is doing this way to soon, but now it is too late because he has already started the revolution. God, I love how direct every issue is in terms of the story it's telling. [00:45:03] And also, of course, Khary Randolph's art is out of control. Justin:       Yeah. Pete:         It's bananas. The character designs are fantastic. It's got like an old-school hip hop vibe to it. It's glorious. The panel work is… This is just such a fun book. Justin:       Yeah. This book… We talk about it so much, please check this book out it is… I'm trying to think of… Because the art isn't like reminiscent of a particular other style, it just encapsulates so much of just great comic book art from very still, emotional panels to super dynamic action panels. It's just a real textbook book on great comic book art, as on the writing and art side. Alex:         There's a thing that happens… I will now spoil something that happens in the issue, but as he comes into the library, he sees a bunch of grannies who were looking at him, and he's like, “That's weird they never looked at me before.” When he messes up, they all pop up and they're like, “Oh, that's it. You fucked up. We're taking you down son.” And there's a panel where there's just all three of them floating in the air about to attack him that I think I shouted, “Oh, shit!”, out loud when I was reading it. [chuckle] It's great. The action in this book is great. It's so tense. It's so creative. Definitely picking up. And that's it for The Stack. If you like to support us, Patreon.com/comicbookclub. Also, we do a live show every Tuesday to Crowdcast and YouTube. Come, hangout, and chat about comic books with us… iTunes, Android, Spotify, Stitcher or the app of your choice, to subscribe and listen to the show. ComicBookClubLive.com for this podcast or at Comic Book Live on Twitter. Come chat with us. And that's it. We'll see you next time at the Virtual Comic Book Shop. Pete:         I now pronounce you, pepperoni and mushrooms. [chuckles] It's a good combo. [00:47:02] The post The Stack: Seven Secrets, Dark Nights Death Metal And More appeared first on Comic Book Club. Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/comicbookclub See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For this episode, we spoke to Charles Watson, member of Sheffield band Slow Club. Charles’ debut solo album “Now That I Am A River” was released  in 2018 leading UK independent label, Moshi Moshi. The album was released to critical acclaim and was named one of the albums of the year by BBC Radio 6 Music presenter, Lauren Laverne. Slow Club were a successful indie band, spanning a period of almost 10 years. They released four albums from “Yeah So” in 2009 through to “One Day All Of This Won’t Matter Anymore” in 2016. An award winning documentary of their last tour “Our Most Brilliant Friends”, was released in 2019 We talked to Charles about writing music for film, demoing his next album, and of course the song he wish he wrote, a song by Bob Dylan. Enjoy listening! Here is a playlist of some of the songs featured, or mentioned in the episode.

We're absolutely thrilled to have acupuncturist Jost Sauer back on the pod today sharing his cosmic insights. In today's chat Jost and Mason explore the role of intuitive understanding in the Chinese Medicine model, and how going beyond the linear into the realm of the energy field and consciousness is a key factor in healing. Today's conversation is deep and insightful, Jost is an absolute wealth of knowledge and wisdom, sharing his experience as both a practitioner and student in a easy and accessible way. Dive on in to challenge your analytical mind and expand your cosmic awareness. "With being human comes obligation, and the obligation of the human is to free our blockages. If the whole planet frees the blockages, we are in Paradise." - Jost Sauer Mason and Jost discuss: Intuitive understanding as a foundational pillar in Chinese Medicine. Chinese Medicine and the energetic realms. Five Element Theory. Human beings as energy beings. The soul as our human blueprint. The physical organs vs the energy organs; the Western and Eastern concepts of what these are and what they embody. The life/dealth, Yin/Yang cycle. The importance of a daily Qi practice to creating harmony within the body, mind and spirit - consistency is key here. The definition of health - "my perception of health is the ability to transform symptom into flow." Jost Sauer The body as a crystalline structure. Tonic herbs as messengers from heaven. Fad diets and intermittent fasting. The link between your level of health and your capacity for intuition. Using herbs and practice to clear obstructions in the meridians and energy body.   Who is Jost Sauer? Jost (aka the lifestyle medicine man) was born in Germany in 1958 and is an ex-hippie, anarchist and drug runner turned acupuncturist, popular author and healthy lifestyle expert. His background includes competitive skiing, body-building, and ironman training, but after post-drug suicidal depression led him to martial arts and the study of TCM, he discovered the power of Qi, the cycle of Qi of Chinese medicine and that a natural rhythmic lifestyle holds the secrets to anti-ageing, health and success. Jost has been using lifestyle therapeutically for his clients for over 20 years. Jost is an expert in Chinese Medicine, which he lectured in for over a decade at the Australian College of Natural Medicine, he has been running successful health clinics since 1991, initially specialising in addiction recovery, and has treated tens of thousands of clients. His passion is sharing his ongoing discoveries about making lifestyle your best medicine through his books, blogs, articles, workshops and retreats.   Resources: Jost Website Jost Facebook Jost Instagram Jost Youtube Clock On To Health Book   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: (00:00) Bro, welcome back.   Jost: (00:01) Yep, thank you Mason.   Mason: (00:02) It's so good, man. I had so much fun last time, and... well I'm just stoked that you ended up down here, Bangalow way. We're not back at work yet, but as soon as I knew you were going to be in the area, I was like "Yeah, I'm coming out of my shell," to come and rock another podcast with you.   Jost: (00:18) Yeah, awesome.   Mason: (00:21) How's it been going over... You're at the Starlight festival?   Jost: (00:23) Oh look, I love the Bangalow Starlight festival. I love festivals in the first place because it allows you to meet a lot of people from all different walks of life. And the people connection is crucial. Because obviously in Chinese Medicine, everything is contextual, nothing is absolute. And you can write a book about Chinese Medicine, but unless you meet people and you actually establish a relationship, Chinese Medicine really doesn't work and the beauty of those festivals is you meet people from all different walks of life and you can really meet what goes on in their life and you can find something that is of value to address. Chinese Medicine is... The reason I love it so much is you can... It's so versatile, you can apply it to every situation. And it's a medicine that is designed to evolve and to take you constantly to new levels.   Mason: (01:13) Some of the books are amazing but they're 2D, right? What you're talking about is blowing out that web, of that connection, that invisible web, into a 5D reality, which is the nature of the medicine. If it's 2D, and stays within an institution or a hospital or just one particular context, you're not going to get that full experiential nature of what it is.   Jost: (01:34) No, it's a colorful language. It's a colorful medicine. It's a many thing that goes far beyond the scope that we perceive in our conscious reality. Chinese Medicine, it comes from the energetic realms, it comes from the spiritual realms. So it comes from Qi, it comes from... By the time it's channeled down, and funneled into this narrow red bend reality, it has lost a lot of its meaning. The idea is to expand our horizon and consciousness, again in order to bring the whole complexity of Chinese Medicine into application. And that requires, obviously, thinking outside the box all the time. It requires for you to actually not go linear, because if you go linear you limit the medicine. And the beauty of this medicine is, you can go into any situation and if you're open to it, you always know what to do. Because the intuitive understanding is like the prime element of this medicine and we need to train that.   Jost: (02:40) The intuitive understanding, it's not the something that belongs the conscious mind, it belongs to our energy field, and our soul. And Chinese Medicine has got its origin in this spectrum of the energy field, and understands that the blueprint for everything what we see is in the energy field. And basically, everything that's going to get developed and discovered and invented, already exists in the ether. So, the Chinese already tapped into that. For it to exist in the physical, it must have its origin in the energy field. So, the good thing about that is that in Chinese Medicine, we don't have that doom and gloom thinking. So, a lot of people think, our earth is going to collapse.   Mason: (03:36) Yeah, there's not that ambiguous... That anxiety that comes from the ambiguity of the unknown, right? There's no crisis mode, as you said.   Jost: (03:48) Yeah, no, absolutely no, totally no. Because the fact is that we always find a solution.   Mason: (03:51) Yeah, and that's not just in-   Jost: (03:53) Because there are always people who would tap into the ether, it will not stop. The whole idea of Chinese Medicine, what we experience in the physical reality, is based on the five elements. The water nurtures the wood, the wood feeds the fire, the fire becomes ash, which is earth, the earth evaporates, air, clouds, it rains, it's water, it feeds the wood. It's a cycle that will continue forever. So, that's the biochemistry within the physical, but how to direct the five elements is obviously the mind, it's obviously our perception of where we are going to take that. And that intuitive understanding that takes us to direct the five elements comes from the energy field.   Mason: (04:37) So let's talk about that. You were talking about training your intuitive nature, because that's something that in the West, it seems to be the biggest struggle with taking on, in fullness, Chinese Medicine over into the West, is taking it outside of an analytical, complete system. That's what is happening in the West, everyone wants to still... We talked about it in the last podcast. We started talking about pathology, disease classification and all those kinds of things which doesn't necessarily... You can do it side by side with traditional Chinese Medicine.   Mason: (05:10) However, you try and take Chinese Medicine and make it work through the lens of Western pathology... You're going to basically cut out, which is what we do with surgery all the time, you're going to go and cut out that intuitive nature that is that 5D colourful, living web of medicine that Chinese Medicine really is. So, how do we transfer into a modern time and train that intuitive nature, and bring with it not just this... In the West a lot of people are like, "There's always a solution, always something is going to happen," But it's kind of "Cross my fingers and hope it works," verses when you really are tapped in and your intuition and your nature of where to take your five elements and where to take the healing for yourself and others is coming from a real energetic realm that you're plugged into, right. So that you're not kind of hoping, it's not like a belief system, it's just like, "Well, this is a reality."   Jost: (06:08) It really exists.   Mason: (06:09) It exists, and that's a reality. So how do you train tapping into that reality?   Jost: (06:14) Yeah, you can't use your academic mind for that. Obviously, that's why this is not possible with our daily practice.   Mason: (06:20) Yes.   Jost: (06:21) So, in Chinese Medicine, it states over and over, we are energy beings. Our energy field is structured by the meridian system and the acupuncture meridians and the organ structure exists in the energy field, so every organ is an energy organ. So that means, it's already within us. So, as a soul, before we incarnate, before we come into this physical world, we already got all the instructions about what to do, it's like a survival kit, like a mission statement, a full on instruction manual. It's in each of the energy organs. And the energy organs in Chinese Medicine are the ones, as we talked in the last podcast, are written in upper cases, to differentiate it from the western organ. So-   Mason: (07:09) And it's very important. I just want to reiterate that, that's why we we'll say, "Liver wood," to make sure that we're hitting it, that we're not talking about the lower case 'L' liver organ and that's it. It's a very... as you're saying, it's the entire encapsulation of that wood element, and it happens to be called the Liver.   Jost: (07:31) Yes. Look, the spiritual hierarchy, which the Chinese refer to as heaven, which is governed by Tao, which you could say is God. So, they have created the physical, and they have put in meditators between earth and heaven in order for it to develop, and this is what the souls are. Our souls, when we incarnate, are equipped with our mission, we know exactly what to do. We are given all the instructions for it to grow. The spiritual hierarchy want the earth to become better, it's the plan. The mission is for the earth to become a beautiful planet, that's the aim. We will not destroy this, because there is always really good souls coming in with instructions in the energy organ of knowing exactly what to do.   Jost: (08:18) So, the example I use is, someone was 50 years of age, who gets a new iPhone. They don't know what to do because the iPhone, or the smart phone is not coming with an instruction manual. So, what do you do? You give your phone to your five-year-old niece. And she immediately shows you how to use that phone. So the instruction of how to use that phone is already in the energy field of that young child.   Mason: (08:45) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Jost: (08:46) Yes? They already understand, before they incarnated, they already had all the instructions. So they look at iPhone, iPad, bang, they know what to do.   Mason: (08:54) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Jost: (08:55) Yes? So obviously we don't have that, at my age I didn't have that in my organ system, I have to learn it, I have to acquire it, but the young child has it and they get it. So, we constantly got souls coming in with information in the energy organ that will have all the solutions in order to bring the earth to the next. Because this is why, like at Bangalow, you meet a lot of conspiracists, and a lot of people who believe in doom and gloom, and there's a lot of people from the surrounding area that run around and tell you, "This is it, the earth is going to collapse next year."   Mason: (09:30) Very pessimistic, yeah. Very. And I've been there as well, it's a very analytical place. But that doom and gloom, it's hard to get out sometimes when you think, "But this is the reality of it, and if I look away from it then all of a sudden I'm going to shut down and become one of the sheep." Verse, by broadening your awareness of what is actually going on.   Jost: (09:50) Yes. It will not collapse. Why? I mean, it took the spiritual hierarchy billions of years to build all this, they've got a big plan, they've got a big mission, they know what they're doing. The fact is, it's regulated by Yin and Yang. The physical is always subject to Yin and Yang. That means creation and destruction co-exist. That means, for us to move to the next, there will be destruction. Of course we see the destruction, but the destruction is not the end.   Mason: (10:16) Mm-hmm (affirmative)   Jost: (10:17) You know? It's the beginning of the new. It's a transformation. Like in therapy. 40 years in my work as a therapist, in order to make someone healthier, in order to transform, you destroy a lot. Like in my training in Chinese martial art, we create a new body.   Mason: (10:33) Mm-hmm (affirmative)   Jost: (10:35) Yeah? I create a new body, every day I train I create a new body. But in order to create a new body, I destroy the previous aspect of my body. That means I'm always in pain. Yes? I'm always destroy an aspect of my body. It's like body building of a car. If you want to get a new panel done, you destroy, you wreck the car first and then you put new panels on. So, the earth goes through that process, it's an evolution.   Jost: (10:58) So obviously, if we don't understand the process of transformation and if we aren't have the intuitive understanding develop that means we are aligning with the energy field, we can get trapped in destruction. We can get trapped in the observation of "It's destroying itself." That means we are so trapped. And this is regulated by the physical body, and unfortunately, the Liver energy is responsible for that. If the Liver Qi is stagnant and the Liver Qi doesn't move, that means you actually... It's not moving proper, it can get stuck. Because the Liver is directly going to the Heart, to the Fire Element, and that's where your perception of awareness comes in. Your mind perceives by the Heart. If the Liver Qi is stagnant, the mind gets stuck on one aspect, it gets stuck on the destruction, it can't see the creation, it can't move on to the next.   Jost: (11:55) So now you see doom and gloom. You see Yang but not Yin. So you see a Yin Yang symbol but only with the yang. And so Liver Qi stagnation is unfortunately a by product of a lifestyle. So a lifestyle, if we don't develop the skills to make the Liver Qi move, we cause Liver Qi stagnation. Liver chi stagnation can come easily from inappropriate way of living. For example, marijuana, pot, impacts on the Liver. If you smoke regular, what it can do, it can actually stop the Liver Qi moving. So what happens now? It becomes a staccato towards the Fire. Now the mind can't perceive the next so it gets stuck on the destructive aspect. It sees Yang but not Yin.   Mason: (12:46) Yeah.   Jost: (12:47) Marijuana can do that. I've been observing drugs for a long time, and this is one of the side effects of pot that it can make you stuck on only perceiving Yang, not Yin. And that means now you can see it's going to get doom and gloom, it's going to destroy. Now you perceive reality, "The earth is going to die." So, the fact is that all of us actually know exactly what it's about and we just need to get to the intuitive understanding of our body, and that requires the Qi to flow. If the Qi flows, that means it goes through all the other organ systems, now we've got access directly to our energy field, now we have access to information about our mission, we suddenly understand. So this is where it goes into, we need to do the practice every day. So we need a daily practice. So, yeah.   Mason: (13:43) Well this is what I like, I mean, this is a nature of Chinese Medicine that's highly made that transfer over into the West, but not fully, is that one that, if we're talking about Liver Qi stagnation, are we going to just unlearn how to understand that and just bring into our household an understanding of what that is, or are we going to go to a practitioner. Okay, we can go to a practitioner and get some needling and get things moving.   Mason: (14:07) But as you were saying, daily practice, procuring your own ability to keep your own Qi moving so that you become your own practitioner. And then, I think from looking at that Yang side of things, whether it's conspiracy, or... we're always looking for solutions, with Yang it's doom and gloom so we're looking for like, how do we right this wrong. And so, right the wrong is the mentality of "I am a patient, I need to go to a doctor, I am sick, I've got a symptom, I need to right this wrong." And then when you do get the Qi moving, and you have the Yin, that accumulative energy and that calm and that still energy of the Yin, you can start to... The mind, the Heart energy can move and the mind can start moving towards not so much as a problem solution and what I'm fixing in myself every day with my practice, but something more exploratory, something more cultivating, something more exciting.   Mason: (15:00) So, with the daily practice. Let's have a look at that simplicity, because that's something I like hitting again and again and again with everybody. So theoretically, what does it feel like for you, when you get there and you say "Okay, there's the potential for Liver Qi stagnation, however I am in here in a not solving problems, in a not fixing myself state of mind." What is your state of mind? Are you exploring yourself? Are you looking for longevity? What does it feel like?   Jost: (15:32) I look for to free my energy field. Okay, so our job as human beings, in order to be of benefit to creation, that means we are of benefit to others and ourselves, so we benefit creation. In order to be beneficial to others and to life, I need to free my obstructions in the meridian system. So if my acupuncture meridian are free flowing, I am without... Without a deliberate action, I am good to others, I'm not planning to be good, I'm naturally good. So I'm not deliberately good. I'm not going and making a conscious decision to be good, I'm automatically good because my energy flows freely, I'm automatically embracing the situation from the best perspective, and I'm naturally considering the person as a friend. So our job as humans is to actually clear the blockages in the meridian. So I don't have actually a future thinking, because I've been doing it for so long so I perceive myself as a soul, a soul doesn't think future, because it's infinite.   Mason: (16:43) Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.   Jost: (16:46) I'm in the present, yeah? Because that's the only thing that matters to the soul. So I don't actually go far into the future, maybe I should but I can't actually go in.   Mason: (16:58) Maybe for a bit of fun.   Jost: (17:01) The fact is that every morning when I wake up, the only thing that concerns me is the blockages in my field, and I know exactly there are blockages in my large intestine meridian. If I don't correct them, it can't control my Wood. If it can't control the Wood, I will have irritability and crankiness, that means I most likely will harm someone by saying something rude, or I feel irritable and cranky and angry, that means I harm myself.   Mason: (17:30) Mm-hmm (affirmative), are you a Lung constitution? A Metal constitution?   Jost: (17:34) No, no, it's a fluctuating system anyway.   Mason: (17:38) Yeah, of course.   Jost: (17:39) It's like... Now that's like a general approach. Every morning, I know exactly, I'm going to look at whatever the obstructions are-   Mason: (17:48) What's your process of... Just scanning?   Jost: (17:50) Yeah, it's scanning, yeah. So, the dominating symptom, that's what I mean with "It's fluctuating." So it's not a dominating element, there is always a dominating symptom, and the symptom in Chinese Medicine, the symptom belongs to the body, it's subject of the physical body but it doesn't belong to the soul, it's not property of the soul. The energy field does not know symptoms, the soul of our nature is pure awareness, joy, bliss, but the soul incarnates into the physical and that means it matches itself with the central nervous system of the physical body and that causes symptoms, that's pain. And that's sensory, and that leads to thinking. So, in the mornings, I will always wake up to a dominating thinking, a thought, and a dominating symptom. So it could be a pain in the knee, it could be... With me, obviously because of my injuries from when I was hard into sport, so usually injuries come up like an aching knee, aching hip, something like that. Or if I worked too much in the day before and I got too intensely involved with transformational processes with my clients, I have energy stuck from that previous day and that gives me a squeezy sick feeling in the stomach. And so, whatever it is... Or I feel lethargic, or depression, whatever.   Jost: (19:19) The fact is, whatever is dominating, I sink into that. And then I use my body to clear the meridians. So I hold onto that symptoms, I don't drink coffee. I don't do anything to override the symptoms. I love coffee, but I drink coffee when I don't need it.   Mason: (19:36) Yeah, that's the way. Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Jost: (19:38) Yeah. It's just a... I love coffee, I love cake, I love everything, I love red wine. That's the beauty of living that way is that you can enjoy everything, I'm not trapped in you need juice diet, I'm not trapped in any diets. If you put the focus on clearing your energy field first, you are in charge of substance. That means you know what to do because you don't need it. So if I wake up and drink coffee to get going, I override the symptom, I'm giving the instructions now to the body and to my energy field, and I don't actually want to clear that. So what happens now is, I actually stop getting access to my information about my intuitive understanding. So if I wake up and get straight into coffee, into sugar, into distractions, into cigarettes, or meeting people or having a call-   Mason: (20:34) On the phone?   Jost: (20:34) Yeah, on the phone. What happens now is I'm actually stopping, what happens is I stop the internet connection to my energy field. So it's like I got my computer but no internet connection. So my energy field has got all the information. To access that information, I need to unblock the obstructions in my energy field first.   Mason: (20:59) And you're using your physical practice to do that?   Jost: (21:01) Yes. This is the beauty of... If you love yoga, you do yoga. If you do core training, you take core training. If you do stretches, you do stretches. If you love TRX ropes, you use TRX ropes. If you love martial arts, you do Tai-chi. It's really irrelevant what practice you do as long as you know why you do it.   Mason: (21:22) So talk a little bit about that. Are we talking about intent here, like if you have an intention to move through? And what you were saying before about whatever deficiency or blockage we are experiencing that day, and watching to see if you know or if you don't... We all know it really well, because we know where we get emotionally hung up during the day and we know where we lack a bit of compassion or empathy or where we get angry at people. For me, it's criticism, and it's mostly... It might come up as criticism for others but I feel that if I go a little bit further, I can feel that real hectic criticism of myself that it's emerging from. But I know that's my blockage, right? And that's an interesting thing, it was a good reminder from you the other day. I can't remember what you said specifically on Instagram, but you were like, "Look, there's no bad people or bad emotions, it's just an energetic blockage."   Jost: (22:09) Yeah.   Mason: (22:09) Right. Super fascinating. So you're saying, no matter what your physical practice is... Because I like that approach as well. It doesn't really matter what your... Everything can be your spiritual practice, everything can be your energetic practice.   Jost: (22:20) Yeah, everything is a spiritual practice, as long as you know what you do. You need to know why you do it. So if you understand that what the practice is, from a physics perspective, exercise is like piezoelectricity. It acts on crystallization and the obstructions in the crystalline arrangement. So what happens is that when we have a blockage in the energy field, that blockage is, as physics has identified, is in fact a crystalline arrangement. It's like... Your acupuncture point is in fact a crystal. So if the energy is not moving through it's because a crystalline arrangement has been. That's what pain is. When we try to avoid pain, and don't move in a certain area with our body, we actually enhance the obstruction, and that becomes a crystal, it's like crystal. And that crystal is memories, it's full with all kind of memories about issues, whatever that is.   Mason: (23:24) So that is crystalline, sedimenty, like a deposit within the-   Jost: (23:31) Yes. When you use Chinese massage therapy, which is an enormous, complex field, which takes... in China, you study medicine first, then you specialize in Tuina, which is the Chinese massage therapy. So all up, seven years, eight years before you are actually allowed to work on people. And what they do, they sit on the point with the knuckle, and they know exactly, "This is a crystal." So what they do is they apply piezoelectricity on that point. Piezoelectricity means, you are putting pressure on the crystal. If you apply pressure on a crystal, the energy that's inherent in the crystal will now be released. That's the sister of the cigarette lighter, the electric cigarette lighter. In a cigarette lighter, you have a crystal and you put pressure on it, the energy, and it gets connected to the gas that becomes the flame. Cars used to have a piezoelectricity. Piezoelectricity is a physics fact, everyone can Google it, it all comes up.   Jost: (24:34) But our body is also piezoelectricity, it's a crystalline arrangement. When our meridian system matches with the central nervous system, that merging becomes crystalline, it's a crystalline arrangement. So the meridians have got different pathways to the nervous system, but the crystalline arrangement is the result of the two. And it's the process of the energy with the central nervous system, the blood flow etc. So the crystalline arrangement doesn't belong to the soul, but it's incarnate and matched with the central nervous system, it becomes crystalline. So that's why when you sit on a certain point it can transmit energy all the way up the other part of the body.   Mason: (25:18) Yeah, right.   Jost: (25:18) Yeah, and so this is where death point striking in kung fu comes into, we know exactly what point to hit. In that moment, you hit the acupuncture point and the blockage in the crystal now gets reversed and it stops the flow and people die. Death point strike, it's called dim mak. So obviously it takes decades to study and learn and by the time you master this art you have no interest in applying it.   Mason: (25:47) Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah the way it normally goes.   Jost: (25:49) But healing is exactly the same thing. So the healing, the Tuina, the Chinese massage therapy, understands that the blockage is the cause of the problem because that crystal stops the energy being taken to the energy organ and stops the energy from the energy organ to be moved to the other parts of the body. It basically physically stops intuitive understanding to be developed. So the question we started at the beginning is how to develop intuitive understanding, the answer to that is, to free the meridians of its blockages and that means we have to go into the crystalline arrangement and actually free the blockages. Because once you have the blockages free, that means your senses, your awareness merges, your thoughts meet your soul nature and the awareness of your soul nature now influences your thoughts. Suddenly your thoughts are generated by your soul awareness rather than by conscious mind, reflection, analysis.   Jost: (26:58) So instead of going into using your conscious mind and you're looking at a rational formula, your thoughts, if the energy flows freely to the energy organ, because the crystalline arrangement has been taken care of, what happens now is that your thoughts are influenced by the awareness of the soul. Means when you talk to someone, you suddenly know... You just suddenly understand, you suddenly see a blue print of something. For example, if someone talks about a problem, and you suddenly know. That's what the seer is used in therapy, like in the old days when people had a problem, they had to see the shaman. The shaman was able to connect his thoughts to the soul awareness and suddenly saw, suddenly knew what to do.   Mason: (27:51) It's so simple as well. That was the thing... When I was first getting into it, in talking to you about it, it's real electric and romantic and it's amazing and the language can go... You're like "Oh whoa, you do this and this and the thing goes into this and goes into the energy organ," but we all know the experience. If everyone listening, and I mean, even for myself, this is a really familiar place, when you just have those days when you're moving your body a few days in a row in a way that is unblocking whatever needs to be unblocked, right? Its not like a mental idea of trying to get fit or trying to fix myself in any way, I'm just moving, enjoying that movement, exploring my body.   Jost: (28:32) And you get unblocked, that's all it is.   Mason: (28:34) Just unblocking. And then after a few days you get into a little bit more of a flow, because maybe you've been sleeping a little bit better and just eating a little bit better and all of a sudden you're popping and the ideas start coming to you and you're talking to someone and as you were saying... Everyone knows this experience, maybe I can feel what they're going through a little bit, I can relate a little bit and then you just have a really nice conversation and that person comes off feeling a little bit better. It doesn't need to get much more complex than that, that's like that flow state of a day.   Mason: (29:03) I think what's for me where I've always got tripped up is I've gone... I've thought it needed to be more complex than that and I thought I needed to work harder and I needed to move more and do more Qigong or do more stretching or more standing meditation to compound it verses just allowing it to be a nice, gentle consistent building over time and really going, and sure, Mason, that you can relate, you're going nice and slow and steady enough, and you're going to be able to keep this up for the next four, five, six decades. And that's something I'm really coming back to at the moment, just how simple it is and how simple the intention, in all its complexity, just to be, just to get tapped into your intuition, a little bit, doesn't need-   Jost: (29:48) The key is consistency.   Mason: (29:50) Far out, isn't it.   Jost: (29:51) It's consistency is the key. The latest discoveries in performance sport therapy, it's all about, you never go to the extreme, but it's consistency. When people look at my body, they always know, because I'm very conditioned and they always go like, "My god, you must be hardcore in weight training and things like..." Firstly, I don't touch weights. But it's about... The people "How do you get the cut look, how do you get so cut?"   Mason: (30:17) "How do you get chiseled?" Yeah.   Jost: (30:18) How do you get chiseled? Consistency!   Mason: (30:20) Yeah.   Jost: (30:22) Every day! Consistency! Years after year, consistency, that's the key. I'm not strong, I'm consistent. But in the consistent, you become strong.   Mason: (30:32) You become really strong.   Jost: (30:32) Yes, that's it. So, I'm not going for the strength, I'm going for consistency, then the consistency over time, that makes you strong. It's a totally different approach, in Taoist view.   Mason: (30:41) Well you completely bypass the mental idea of what strong is, as a gain and as something to own, and you start awakening this phenomena of strength from your body, right?   Jost: (30:52) Yeah. You don't go hardcore, for example if it says 50 kilos on the bench press, I would do 30. I mean, I don't do bench press. But the idea is to... In case you would do this, yeah. So you never go to the extreme, but you're going to do it every day. And that's the key. This is where a lot of really incredible physiques, like the Russian sport conditioning, they are leaders in the field.   Mason: (31:19) Insane.   Jost: (31:20) Unbelievable what that dude.. Pavlov one of my heroes, I love their bodies, let's talk about it here, this Russian sport condition. But those guys, they're in their seventies, they've got incredible physiques, they're 80 years old, they've got physiques like mindboggling. Their key is consistent. Every day, every day, every day, just build and build and build. Because what happens is, this is where, if you every day honored, you de-obstruct the blockages, you free the blockages. What happens now? The energy field is coming in. The energy field always rejuvenates the body. This is the key to longevity. You see, the physical body, which in Chinese Medicine we call Po, P, O. The physical body is destined to die, is temporary, but the energy, which we call Hun, H, U, N, is infinite. So the energy always rejuvenates the body.   Jost: (32:14) So when we talk about longevity, the interesting thing is my focus is not longevity, my focus is the obstructive blockages, but that leads to longevity. My focus is not strength, my focus is consistency that leads me to strength.   Mason: (32:28) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, amazing.   Jost: (32:31) So it's always a secondary outcome. So my goal is always a secondary... It's almost like a secondary outcome.   Mason: (32:40) Yeah. Which takes a lot of strength within itself. To be able to hold your focus enough, and not get caught up in that... And not get invalidated right away, especially.   Jost: (32:53) Yeah, the beauty is that you develop the skills enough that after a while you just don't... I don't buy into people's... I mean, you've got eight billion people on this planet, and as soon as the soul incarnates into the physical, and that means it matches with the nervous system. In that moment, the soul experiences thoughts, so obviously that leads to an opinion. So that means we've got eight billion opinions on the earth. You can't follow people's opinions, you've got to find your own way here. And the Buddha said, "Don't believe anyone, not even me." And so I don't buy into anything. When I read something about diet, whatever, I just let it go by. But it's the energy field by that shows me where it is, the intuitive understanding needs to be, that's the key element. And interesting thing is, intuitive understanding can be only developed if you live healthy.   Jost: (33:53) So the next answer to the question how to develop intuitive understanding is to be healthy. So the interesting thing is that the intuitive understanding will not come to you if you unhealthy.   Mason: (34:03) Mm-hmm (affirmative), if you're unhealthy, yeah.   Jost: (34:05) Just because someone says "I have an intuitive understanding," you don't know where that comes from, it could be thought process from the physical body. The physical body is very limited in its knowledge, yes? So you can't go by that. So just because something comes in, you don't know what it is. But the fact that... The healthier you are, the more you know.   Mason: (34:24) Mm-hmm (affirmative). I guess what you were saying is that there's variations in health as well. I mean, the difference being, can you be on a explore what real blossoming health is for you...   Jost: (34:42) Okay, my perception of health is the ability to transform symptom into flow.   Mason: (34:48) On a daily-?   Jost: (34:49) That's health. Because that means, whatever level you are, your health is an indicator how you transform your symptom. So you're 80 years of age, and you've got a symptom, like creaky back or achy bones, you can't get out of bed. But, you transform that, and you get out of bed. That's health.   Mason: (35:06) Or even like further internally, right, if you're looking at anxiousness, obsessiveness. That's the most difficult thing, I think, that's where you see... It's where I've caught myself in the biggest trap and going like, "Right, I'm really healthy, and then I'm physically healthy and now I'm going to maintain this state of health." And then all of a sudden, because I've got more energy, it brought up my own self-awareness of my own blockages. I was talking about that criticism, and all these things. So all of a sudden at that point, you look down the barrel of going, "All right, I thought it was hard to overcome physical symptoms. Far out, now I'm going to open up a can of worms of going..." Without pressuring yourself, because there's this all this pressure to become a perfect human when you're in this world, and you're hanging out at Bangalow Starlight festival, you've got to have your sainthood on. You can't be... Can't admit that you're an overly angry person or an anxious person. There's like a cachet that comes with being in the scene.   Mason: (36:16) But the reality of it is, without... Yeah, you got to be working on your, make sure your back isn't hurting, make sure you're stretching so that these physical symptoms aren't going to get you. But then going in and working on transforming that nature of yourself which is super critical or paranoid or whatever that is. That takes a lot of energy. I feel like, that's where a transparency on, and knowing that it's okay to still have these reactions and still have these things that come up.   Jost: (36:49) Yes. We can't not have symptoms, it's not possible. Because every day, our job as humans is to expand the current state of the earth. And it will be regulated by the hierarchy, who has given us information in the energy field of what to do. So the earth will expand. Our job is to keep doing that. But while doing it, while we grow the earth and grow ourselves, we also, that means we are subject to Yin and Yang, that means we also experience destruction. So while I create, all day... Today I focus on creating, tomorrow when I wake up, I experience the destructive aspect of creation. So if I override that, ignore, I'm actually going backwards. That's what they're saying. So what that means is, I'm moving towards my physical body, rather than towards the soul. That means, now, as I move to my physical body and I become more and more the physics... But then I go to a health fair like Bangalow Starlight festival and I'm supposed to be a healer and a soul person, and if I'm in the physical body and not in my soul... If I'm in the physical body but not naturally in my soul, that means I now have to project. I have to do a conceptual view on who I am. That means I have to project, I can't be natural, I have to project. So now I live a double life. Yes?   Mason: (38:19) Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, and all... Now you feel like... Now who are the fraudulents.   Jost: (38:24) So now I have to project to be the saint, whereas in fact I'm stuck in the physical. But the fact is that every morning, I wake up to be the sinner, and after my practice, I am the saint. So if I wake up and don't deal with my physical symptoms, of course I get more and more trapped and it becomes in brackets not the saint. So now I have to obviously project to others that I am the saint, whereas the beauty is once you start constantly de-obstructing, you don't actually care what you project to others, you become free of that need. I'm totally free of the need to project, because I deal with that in my morning practice and then I don't care what other people think of me. I just actually don't give a toss what other people think of me. Yeah?   Mason: (39:13) Yeah, liberating, yeah.   Jost: (39:15) And people who know me know that. I learned that from the masters that I studied under. They don't live in the eyes of other people, they don't live as an accord with your expectations, yes?   Mason: (39:32) Mm-hmm (affirmative)   Jost: (39:33) They are eccentrics, they follow their path. If that suits you or not, that's your problem.   Mason: (39:36) I feel ya, I'm like... That's like-   Jost: (39:40) But you're never obnoxious, you're never bad because your energy is flowing freely so by nature you are compassionate. You're just in a slightly different way than other people think you should be, but you don't care.   Mason: (39:52) I mean, it's refreshing having someone... That's always when you go, "All right, I'm going to start... I'm in the presence of someone that's I want to procure some Shen here some wisdom but without the obnoxiousness, like not... because when I was growing up, in the West, it was either... I'm someone who is very self-aware in the sense that I'm very aware of that it's all made up. Other people looking at me and other people judging me, that's been my whole life, that has been my biggest weight on my shoulders. And then, what I could see, what was projected in the West most of the time were those people that, especially when I was young, those people that didn't care what other people were thinking of them, comes with a slice of obnoxiousness as well. And so as a young person, especially watching a lot of shitty media, maybe do I just need to be obnoxious? And then you play around with that and go through all those kinds of areas and then you get to this point when, as you were saying, awareness of this nature of right, and you can get consistency and clear that energy and, as I say, the whole point of taking the herbs is ideally to become less of an asshole and more of an awesome person. Would that kind of be it?   Jost: (40:59) Yes, that's the point.   Mason: (41:00) That's the point.   Jost: (41:03) Because herbs, herbs act on obstructions and the blockages. That's why herbs are crucial, that's why your mushrooms, your medicinal mushrooms, all that stuff, ashwagandha... It's your first step, it's essential. It's always superior to food because herbs act on the crystalline arrangement more in a concentrated form than food would do. So the example I use is herbs act on crystals, crystalline arrangements and the obstructive blockages like dish washing liquid would act on greasy pots. If you have a greasy pot and you want to clean it, you can scrub that pot under hot water all day, you go nowhere. One drop of dish washing liquid and bang you take it off. And that's to me like a good serve of ashwagandha, a good serve of astragalus, a good serve of good mushrooms, put it all together, have the tea after your morning practice. It flushes the meridian and it de-obstructs the blockages like dishwashing liquid would act on greasy pots.   Mason: (42:09) I like that. Okay so when with the crystalline arrangement, can you explain to me again the process of are we helping to align that crystalline nature or actually clear-   Jost: (42:19) No, we... The clearing of the blockage, the clearing of the crystal means you apply pressure on the crystal.   Mason: (42:25) Right.   Jost: (42:25) So that means you put yourself in a... The whole principal of the pyramids, of the Egyptian pyramids is the center of the fire, where it meets, it's about the pressure of the "Phwoar!", you're going right in. When you look at the "Whaaa!" Sorry.   Mason: (42:26) No, go for it.   Jost: (42:38) When it's really deep concentration practice, what you do... Your whole awareness, your consciousness, everything and your body becomes like a pyramid and you're compressing inside the center of fire, and that means that in that moment what you're doing, you're putting... You're applying a three dimensional pressure on the crystal from all different angles, all around. And in that moment if you apply pressure on it, like "Phwooar!" In that moment the energy naturally gets freed and now it shoots out, and now it frees itself. So you keep going, keep going, keep going so the crystal which maybe starts the size of a one inch radius, diameter, and then eventually becomes like a little coin. So initially it starts like the size of an apple, and eventually it becomes the seed of a poppy seed.   Mason: (43:29) Mm-hmm (affirmative)   Jost: (43:30) Yeah? So if you sit with this, you could de-obstruct the whole body in a sitting of 16 years, according to the knowledge of the Vedas. You can become enlightened in 16 years if you just sit there for 16 years and de-obstruct every blockage. And that moment, enlightenment means, the energy just flushes through your body, according to their view of that whole thing.   Jost: (43:54) So the obstruction is the crystal, the pressure is three dimensional. So that's why it's something we need to be engaged with, so we can't just do it... We need to use the body for that. I mean, some people can do it without a body, but it takes a lot of training. Yeah, some of the Tibetan Buddhists in the Himalaya obviously don't use... But they're so strong. I studied under some of those guys, unbelievable strength. I mean, I'm pretty fit and I look at those guys and my god. It's not like... They don't do this visualization technique that you learn in New Age, you know this...   Mason: (44:34) They're like actually living it and doing it. Effortless effort.   Jost: (44:39) They are in a constant applying pressure on the crystal three dimensional constantly.   Mason: (44:46) Yeah, right.   Jost: (44:47) They can sit in 40 degrees, minus, just with a loin cloth. And the pressure on the crystal is so strong, it emanates the energy, they are actually hot and they melt the snow. And I've seen those guys and it's unbelievable training. So my training is with the Chen Tai Chi, and it focuses, it does the same thing so when we do the stands we focus and every body becomes like... You just unite with every meridians. So after about 20 minutes you can feel very meridian system, you can feel every blockage and you are just fully engaging with every obstruction, with the main obstruction, and you can feel in that moment you are just completely applying pressure on it.   Jost: (45:29) So this is something we are all trained to do, we are all programmed to do. We just have to introduce to the initial techniques and we will find it. That's the beauty of that. We all have that in our energy field. Everyone who is physical form, in human body, already has the instructions in their energy body how to do this. You just have to start.   Mason: (45:56) You just have to start and not think about it too much. You just have to... Yeah. I mean, that's always my trip up, I'm like "Should I really, should I be doing that technique, should I move on from that technique a little bit, maybe that's not..." And I'm like sitting down and just watching myself... And it's not even sabotage, it's well intended to an extent but it's just... You overthink it and it's just like "Dude, just do something."   Jost: (46:23) But before we start the practice, we are always dominated, our awareness, we are thinking, we are in the body. So, when we start the practice, we are in the body. Of course we don't want to do it.   Mason: (46:36) Yeah.   Jost: (46:37) You just... I've never had a day, I've never had a morning I woke up and said "I can't wait to get into it." Every morning it's a struggle, it's a battle. Because you wake up, you're in the energy field. Now you don't want to get up. This is why the Chinese called it "From the senses, to mind, to Qi." So when I wake up, every morning, I get immediately confronted with the sensory. What it means is, I don't want to get up, I want to give in to the pleasure of sleeping, I want to roll over, I want to stay in bed, I want to give into my senses. So I know I have to use my mind, to push against it. And my mind says, "I have to do business, I have to do work." Yes? So that's the step, that gets you out of bed.   Jost: (47:27) However, the Taoists say, "From the senses, to the mind, to Qi." So, meaning, we wake up, we resist the senses, that means we don't give into the pleasure to stay in bed. We use the mind to get up. But now we're using the mind to move towards Qi. So we don't use the mind to go to work, we don't use the mind to get to the computer and write, we don't use the mind to go on Instagram. We don't use the mind to argue with other people. We use the mind to force the body into a posture. And once the body gets into a posture, automatically, you start de-obstructing the meridian fields. Now the intuitive understanding is coming into it, that means I'm starting to feel good.   Mason: (48:12) Mm-hmm (affirmative)   Jost: (48:13) Yes? So, now I understand what to do, I can follow. But I can't follow unless I'm in there. Of course, every morning it's the battle from the senses, to the mind, to chi. In the Western world this is the real battle because for getting out of bed, then you have to battle business.   Mason: (48:33) Or social obligations, communications....   Jost: (48:36) You have to battle... Yeah, it's like the mind wants to immediately ride, get involved, do stuff. Because when I wake up, I finally get out of bed, I immediately want to "Oh I've got this idea, I want to write this down, I want to go on my iPad and write this idea down, I'm just awesome, I've got this perfect understanding... I've got to write this." Of course I want to check my emails. But no! From the mind, to Qi. So I use the mind to put the body into the posture that allows piezoelectricity to happen, that means I de-obstruct the blockages.   Jost: (49:13) Once I de-obstruct the blockages, I now go into Qi. Now I am soul awareness, of course, and now I... That's joy and once I'm in there, I don't want to stop. Difficult to start, very difficult to stop.   Mason: (49:31) And then you need to use your mind like "All right, come back down to earth, mate!"   Jost: (49:36) That's why I'm always late, because once I'm in there, I can't stop. I'm always late, for the Bangalow festival, supposed to be there at a certain time. I'm always late because I'm fully immersed in my Qi, in my practice. I can't just lie, "Yeah, I've got plenty of time."   Mason: (49:53) Yeah, right.   Jost: (49:55) Plenty of time. It's too good. But when I wake up, oh I don't want to do this. And then when I'm in there, oh this is good, I don't want to stop.   Mason: (50:05) Do you share practices from your Tai Chi lineage and do you share the forms or the postures anywhere outside of a workshop?   Jost: (50:19) I have a lineage I follow, I follow the Chen Village.   Mason: (50:23) Do you teach that?   Jost: (50:24) No, I don't teach it.   Mason: (50:25) Oh you don't teach it, right, right.   Jost: (50:29) I study Tai Chi, and I practice. So my lineage is Chen Tai chi and that's the oldest Tai Chi, that's the original Tai chi.   Mason: (50:38) Yeah, that's how it was fascinating when we got into that last podcast, yeah.   Jost: (50:41) I just tell everyone, just give it a try.   Mason: (50:44) How would they give it a try?   Jost: (50:45) Yeah, well the beauty of that is there are Chen schools everywhere these days.   Mason: (50:49) Yeah, right.   Jost: (50:49) They're everywhere. You just pull it up on Google, it comes up. 50 years ago, you couldn't find it.   Mason: (50:54) It just exploded, didn't it.   Jost: (50:56) This is the best time to live because you can find access to any technique anywhere. There are courses about Qigong like for $9 or $14 on Udemy. It's mind boggling. There are masters who are showing you every move. Like Chen Xiaowang, one of the greatest master in the history, Tai Chi master, his power is unbelievable. And you can constantly research him on YouTube. 30 years ago, for hundreds of years ago, it was fiercely guarded. Now it's available for everyone.   Mason: (51:29) Boom! It just opened, yeah.   Jost: (51:31) We live in... We've got everyone, everything is available. So everyone's got a smart phone, so on a click and on a swipe of a digital device, you have instant access to the latest technique.   Mason: (51:44) It's insane, that's insane. That's how I feel. Sometimes I walk into the warehouse here, and I look at the herbs sitting on the shelf, and I know the story... The adventure over thousands of years, of that herb. Thousands and thousands of that thing in a particular little area, the hermit's understanding it and working with it to... Maybe there's a village or some grandmothers who just hold onto ensuring that they know how to go and harvest it and introduce it to their children, and the family. And then all of a sudden it becomes famous and the Emperor's just send out and horde all of the reishi mushroom or all of whatever it is. And then Mao coming in, somewhat beginning to destroy the Taoist approach to herbalism. Yet there is just a couple of masters who bring it through, and then one of those masters teaches it to a student that goes over to America.   Mason: (52:43) Then all of a sudden someone "Boom! Bang!" And all of a sudden... Not realizing as well that the people who have guarded these lineages and these martial arts and these herbal practices and even just growing methods, really fiercely the integrity. Which is sometimes the hardest thing to do but yet you still just have to get involved, get an understanding of the terrain and then you can learn what quality movement and quality herbs... You just get a little bit of understanding, you just need to get moving to begin with. And then all of a sudden, we've got astragalus, ginseng-   Jost: (53:17) In supermarkets!   Mason: (53:21) But, everywhere! I look at how many-   Jost: (53:21) I saw it in IGA the other day.   Mason: (53:24) That's like, well some IGA's-   Jost: (53:26) A big bottle of astragalus, I couldn't believe it!   Mason: (53:28) In Maleny, where were you?   Jost: (53:29) No that was in Sunshine Coast, in IGA! Beside toilet paper!   Mason: (53:31) Far out. I mean, that's like when the first... I think Maleny was an IGA that two years ago, they asked me to come and do a talk, and they had sold like 150 tickets through IGA to come and learn. And I wasn't told... I'm kind of, we'll have to... We should do an event together one day. But when I do my talks, I'm probably similar to you, you just start and like "Ba ba ba ba ba." But I'm not going, reishi is good for this, we'd go on through Jing Qi Shen and each have a little chat about it. And there we are sitting there with a supermarket conversation, supermarket customers coming in and learning about this stuff. It was mind-boggling. And to be able to get Di Tao like wild oak reishi, spring fed reishi from high mountains around places like Darby Mountains in IGA's in Maleny, IGA's in supermarkets all over the place. And for a mum of four to whose here living in the suburbs of Australia to be getting access to these Jing herbs and then at the same time they can put away five minutes to study one of the most ancient Tai Chi practices in the world because they just went and had a look on YouTube. Phwaor!   Mason: (54:50) We are so inundated with choice as well, that is what trips people up is that there is some much choice and so many, like, "Am I going to pick the right path?" It's just like, "Just get going!"   Jost: (55:01) Just get going, yeah.   Mason: (55:03) Far out, you just got to get going. And every month you have to remind yourself of that, right? Or every day, you kind of need to start afresh, yeah?   Jost: (55:11) It doesn't matter where you start, whatever makes the most sense to you and whatever you are most drawn to. I would always say the easier way is to just get herbs, get energizing herbs first.   Mason: (55:22) What are your top energizing herbs?   Jost: (55:24) I would probably always say if you want to get the ball rolling, get astragalus as your base. Astragalus has to be your basic. Then you want astragalus and rehmannia with it. And then siberian ginseng, or maybe ren shen, which is like... because according to my observation, the tens of thousands of people I've worked with in my time, and it's 40 years spanning now. That combination helps everyone.   Mason: (55:58) So good.   Jost: (55:59) Yeah. The beauty of the ashwagandha and astragalus combinations and the rehmannia is that they actually adapt to the situation. So if you've got too much Yang, it's going to focus on the Yin first. So if you're too hyper, you're going to get sleepy first.   Mason: (56:15) Well that's an interesting thing with ren shen especially, but even astragalus. But people go, well with astragalus people go like "Okay this is an energizing tonic," and they get on to it and like "Bzzzzz..." and they're like "This was supposed to give me energy," it's like, "Sorry, mate, it's too intelligent. It knows what you bloody need, and it's taken you in that direction."   Jost: (56:34) It's so intelligent. And the Veda's say that ashwagandha can actually be taken by itself. My personal view on that, I find it works best if you have a combination of ashwagandha, astragalus, rehmannia and ren shen.   Mason: (56:53) Well generally with those really strong Jing tonics you need a Qi tonic there to keep everything moving.   Jost: (56:59) For me it works because then you've got the Spleen, Stomach, Lung combination in there too. And then you can put the mushrooms with it, and then we get onto the mushrooms, the reishi, the cordyceps, and obviously my favorite one, the lion's mane.   Mason: (57:13) Yeah, you love it, eh?   Jost: (57:14) Yeah, should be every day, everyone.   Mason: (57:17) That's good. We've already stocked up on lion's mane but I want you to try, I've got a... I don't know whether it'll be out by the time this podcast comes out but I've got a Qi blend coming out with codonopsis, white atractolydes, astragalus, poria, bit of gynostemma in there, turkey tail, and some jujube and I'd like to get your feedback on that.   Jost: (57:39) Yeah, it's really important, all this stuff is... The reason I'm saying all that is, once you start with herbs, you get a feel good very quickly, and if you feel good, you feel inspired to do things. So if you go to Tai Chi school, to a class as your initial step and move, you may get bored very quickly, because it's such a slow learning curve. And then you give up very quickly, so I'm always like, do the radical approach first. I've always liked doing things radical, like just whack it, cause some chaos, yeah.   Mason: (58:16) Or feel that it works.   Jost: (58:16) Yeah, go feel it.   Mason: (58:20) I'm like that big time as well. I used to say this all the time to people, whether it's with physical practice or herbs, or hydration even, little things like that. I call it activating the placebo. So with these herbs people are like "Do they work?" I'm like, "Well, let's think about it. Over at least five thousands years these herbs have been used, and there are tens of thousands of herbs used in China and out of those there's like 50 herbs which are considered tonic. That are, as you were saying, the messengers from heaven that are helping us to basically clear blockages. And they can just be taken every day, simple, not about symptoms, they work.   Jost: (58:56) Yeah. I'm glad that I have now turned 60, I'm 61 years of age, because I can actually use my body as an example that it works.   Mason: (59:07) Yeah for sure.   Jost: (59:08) And, when I was 40 and telling everyone herbs are good, I didn't have really much weighing in my work because I was still young and fit. But once you turn 50, 55, aging hits you. And that's when you know that those herbs work. Men at the age of 60, they know. They've got the aging. There's very few who really are very fit and healthy.   Mason: (59:34) There's even few within the community that are practicing herbs and Qigong, because it just goes and shows that you can't just do the herbs, you can't just do movement. Your whole life needs to be engaged in this practice, right.   Jost: (59:50) Yes. But a good way to get started with that is with herbs. But when people say "Do they work," that's what I'm trying to say. Look at people who are in their sixties and seventies who have been taking herbs for a long time, there are the examples. Don't go by what papers say. I remember that when I was at College and studied Chinese Medicine, over 30 years ago, I already realised I need to take herbs every day. Intuitive understanding for my practice. And then I thought "You can't do this every day, you've got to stop, this is...   Mason: (01:00:25) Too toneifying.   Jost: (01:00:27) Yeah, just like, bang. I just followed my own intuitive understanding.   Mason: (01:00:30) Oh yeah.   Jost: (01:00:31) Yeah, and so I'm at the level now where I can prove to people it works. So I say, "Look, this is my body at 61 years of age. I'm able to transform all kind of symptoms because of the herbs." So I tell everyone, if you want to get guidance by herbs, and you're not sure if they work, look at those who have been taking herbs for a long time. And you will see a different person. I can tell people who take herbs, they look different. They've got different skin. My skin is not someone who is the ordinary 60. And it's not because of genetics, it's got nothing to do with this, because my father died very early. So I don't have the genes for longevity.   Mason: (01:01:20) You don't have the Jing?   Jost: (01:01:21) That's what there... I actually got the opposite, I got weak Jing. I got a lot of injuries, I got like all kind of crippling injuries in my knees from when I was hard in sport. So, the fact that I constantly transform my symptoms, I actually an example, I can see the proof of this medicine. So if someone doubts it, then I say "Okay, compare a 60 year old or a 70 year old person who takes herbs regular with someone who doesn't. You've got entirely different skin, entirely different body, entirely different muscular structure, entirely different ability to transform symptoms." Because health is the ability to transform symptoms. Health is not the absence of symptoms, that's what people misunderstand. They always look at me and think, "Oh, you don't have the issues that I have." I said, "Fuck, man, I've got heaps of issues. But I transform them." And I do lots of herbs to transform them. Lots. Not like a little bit. My car is full with, there's herbs everywhere, you should look in my bag, there's herbs everywhere. I take herbs every three hours, I take always somethings, there's always something. I take bamboo, then I take a bit of hoelen then I take a major four. I'm always something, I'm always wheeling and dealing my body with maybe a little bit of this, maybe a little bit of that. Always a little bit. Consistency. Always just, maybe three flowers.   Mason: (01:02:46) Yeah, I was thinking about maybe... It's such a nice way to invite the plants and the mushrooms and the flowers and the barks into you-   Jost: (01:02:54) Yeah, they're a part of your life. They're given to us.   Mason: (01:02:54) Mm-hmm (affirmative)   Jost: (01:02:55) They're given to us in order to strengthen us. It's just like in Taoist philosophy the herbs are superior to food, it's the most important thing. Eventually the Taoist masters stopped food at all and only do herbs. I don't want to go that way because I love eating, but I don't use food to balance Yin and Yang, I use my herbs. Yeah, of course I eat essential foods. I always have a good breakfast out of grain. I always loved oats, I have good grains every day, I have good protein source every day and I enjoy and I eat really good cakes few times a week and I love good coffee. So I feast.   Mason: (01:03:40) You're living!   Jost: (01:03:42) I live it.   Mason: (01:03:43) "I feast," yeah.   Jost: (01:03:45) So I'm not into the juice diets, I'm not into fasting, I do intermittent fasting?   Mason: (01:03:49) You don't?   Jost: (01:03:49) Intermittent fasting, I do.   Mason: (01:03:54) You do, right.   Jost: (01:03:54) Yeah, I do intermittent fasting, I always have 12 hours between eating, every day.   Mason: (01:03:59) So you're doing breakfast and dinner?   Jost: (01:04:00) So I stop about, say I stop 8:00pm eating, I don't eat until 8:00am next day, or 9:00am.   Mason: (01:04:06) Oh okay, right.   Jost: (01:04:07) So, I usually have a minimum of 12 hours to 13 hours. Th

Today Dannie and Caitlyn are talking with Lindsey Aleson We believe in accessible content and that anyone who wants to learn from this content should be able to. In order to support this, we've had every episode of Season 4 transcribed. The transcriptions are available at the bottom of every episode blog post. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS:Some of the best tools to use in your business.How to combine your creativity with structured systems.The does and don'ts to help non-process people with processes.GET MORE: Website | Instagram FOLLOW YOUR HOSTS: D Website | D Instagram // C Website | C Instagram Get the Side Hustle Starter Kit Episode Transcript Caitlyn Allen: [00:00:21] Hey. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the side hustle gal podcast. We are so excited today because we have Lindsey Aleson of blog. Me lovely. Uh, Lindsey, tell us a little bit about yourself. Lindsey Aleson: [00:00:34] Yeah, so I am a graphic and web designer and tech strategist. Um, I've been doing this for I guess almost four years now, which is crazy. To think about. Think about Um so yeah so I just love helping a fellow female entrepreneurs in the online space with their design and tech and making it not as scary as they think it is . Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:00:53] I love that I've been stalking your website and that you said that you love cats Harry Potter and Disney Yes Um so let's do a round Robin What house are you and Caitlyn say yours too afterwards. Lindsey Aleson: [00:01:06] Oh I'm between Raven Claw in Gryffindor it depends what day I take the test Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:01:10] I love that I'm pretty much a hardcore Slitherin I don't think I've ever gotten anything other than Slitherin but that's super sad because now like Slithering is the trendy house to be in it Hi Sorry Caitlyn Allen: [00:01:25] Okay I'm pretty sure I'm a Hufflepuff uh because I'm lactose intolerant That's funny He's never heard that song at like I don't know what it's like Ron Weasley Oh the parody doesn't somebody say like I'm lactose intolerant I'm a Hufflepuff It's not from Oh anyways no I'm pretty sure I'm a Griffin door I'm actually but yeah I feel like I remember something being like what is it I'm going to Google it while we're having this discussion because I feel like that was That was kind of a funny I believe you Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:02:06] Um so now that we have the important question out of the way and we all can secretly psychoanalyze one another based out of what house we're in Lindsay I'm super curious in how you got started. Lindsey Aleson: [00:02:18] Yeah So it actually goes like way back to when I was 11 years old So I've always been into well my grandpa was an aerospace engineer so I've always been into like building stuff And he surprised me on my 11th birthday with parts of a computer just laid out on the pool table So we bought my first computer And shortly after that I discovered kind of the online space And that was when like Neo pets was big and yeah all those like drag and drop doll websites So I was probably the only 11 or 12 year old with like her own domain and the drag and dropped all website And I just taught myself how to code by like looking at the bet like the source code and using notepad which Is dreadful And I'm so happy that that's not how you have to code anymore Mmm But yeah so then I just kind of went through it and then all through my like college career I kept on switching stuff It took me probably twice as long to get through college because I couldn't decide on a major because it kept on switching But um I decided on journalism and because I love that could do the design and the marketing and kind of pull everything together Um and then I just kinda got your first real job And it was fun at first but I realized I got bored super easy cause you're like stuck in a box So yeah I kind of just went from there and I was kind of into blogging since 2010 so what does that like 10 years now So it's just Yeah it's a lot I just love it I love everything to do with the online space and I've been in it for probably more than half of my life probably most of my life not considering I'm 32. Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:03:48] I love that because you have this secret STEM influenced but still explored like the traditional things that girls do if we go by gender norms but then also the traditional like early two thousands internet behavior things as well So I love that it all weave together into what you do today I am also wondering so you have a pretty girly website and you had those like engineering influences How do you think those two plate pieces play together Lindsey Aleson: [00:04:23] Yeah so I think it comes down into really how I I work and some are really big systems and processes person and um I have a lot of contract positions or I do a lot of client work and it's really hard for me to like if somebody says to do something and I realized like it's not the best way or it's wrong So I always try to leave something better than when I started And I feel that like Analyzing and like always getting like the best way to do something And like the techie really stems from that Especially cause I used to sit on my grandpa's lap all the time when we were talking about like he worked on the space station so I like had the plans who had fixed cars or fix like the electrical socket and stuff which I don't remember any of this now It's been like years but it's just having like making sure it's done right Um and then I am just a typical girl so I liked that I can Do it my way and still focus on what is probably still considered a primarily male driven industry like the tech and and stuff so. Caitlyn Allen: [00:05:21] That's awesome So what all have you I mean you said that you've been in the entrepreneurial world for quite a while What all have you dabbled in Lindsey Aleson: [00:05:31] A lot So um when I first started um I thought I I had a corporate job at the time and I wanted to really focus on web design Right It had been I had built websites for myself but then I had like a really crappy client and I was just like Oh this is just too much Like I don't want to do this I did like just graphic design And so I slowly did that and I kind of took the leap and I had put my job away too soon It was for like issues at the job though like that required it not like I was actually ready and I kind of made it work for a year Mmm But I realized I was so interested in tech so I was doing a lot of tech stuff But through this journey in life still consider myself like a side hustler And I still have so many contract positions right now so it's not like fully my business Um But I have done everything from websites and graphic designs like eBooks and webinars slides and social media graphics to setting up CRM systems to migrate um like email platforms um to figuring out why websites don't work which is always which is always fun So I feel like I've done so much stuff and I just learned I feel like a new system Oh it's on a weekly basis or how to like a new way to do stuff on a weekly basis and I just love it cause I can't do this in the corporate world because we're stuck in a box and you can't grow and expand I feel like. Caitlyn Allen: [00:06:46] I yes I completely or I can relate to that completely I wasn't in the corporate world but I was in the nonprofit world and it just it felt like the same thing over and over there It's so old school what works is what works and you don't want to change any of that And it's just so Boring of course Um what are your favorite systems to use in business.Lindsey Aleson: [00:07:12] I love this question because I am a tool and systems girl so I love click up So for my project management tool also it's kind of like us on in Trello how to baby but as like on steroids It is amazing and I love it for email marketing I love ConvertKit Um let's see For I'm a WordPress person So definitely prefer WordPress or Squarespace or any of the other options that I'm not even going to name Mmm And then I liked Dubsado and tailwind and plannerly like anything that makes your job easier and systematize and save you time I love Mmm Caitlyn Allen: [00:07:49] Ooh I might have to come to you for some click up uh questions Because I use a sauna All of my clients besides one use a sauna and the client that uses click up we're still not 100% sure how to use click up properly So might be coming to you first Some questions Do you have like a YouTube channel or anything like that where you um offer advice for any of those systems .Lindsey Aleson: [00:08:17] Not yet It is in the plans I don't think it will be up by the time this episode airs but I do have a click up course that'll give you access to I don't have the link candy on me but you guys can look at it in the show notes I'm getting ready to revamp it Because click up keeps on making all of these changes and like I've been meaning to update it for a while now but they just keep on making new changes So I'm like waiting but you will absolutely love it if you just have to change your way of thinking a little bit but it'll make so much more sense once you get in it and yeah I love pickup Caitlyn Allen: [00:08:46] Oh my gosh I'm such a systems person too Like that's what I do in my business is I set up systems and processes for my business owners So that's so much fun to hear different people's perspectives because the software or the the things that you're using are Not what I suggest Uh and Danny either I think we all use very different platforms Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:09:09] So I was going to jump in and say from both of you systems people I am still a pen and paper moleskin notebook Slash Google doc person Caitlin tried to get me on Asana I hated it Um I tried to use Trello Hated it I tried Monday Hated it I hate Monday Caitlyn Allen: [00:09:30] I tried San Summa I can'tDannie Lynn Fountain: [00:09:32] I did too Hated it I would love your advice to people who are not process people From both like this is a question both of you can answer but for people who are not process people and or like me not documented process people what would you recommend I guess Lindsey Aleson: [00:09:53] I would have been first So you do have to start somewhere so it's totally okay if you don't have anything yet And it is a learning curve So I know people say there's not really a wrong project management tool but I feel there are certain things that our product management tool should have and there are so many platforms out there that don't have it So like Asana is my second choice I was on a sauna before I moved to um to click up So you just wants to make sure you like hit like does it have sub tasks Do you have due dates Do you have like dependencies Um or just if you're on a team there are just certain things you need to hit make sure but I always start with pen and paper so I love pen and paper You can't see it here but I have a whole stack of on my couch I'll turn I'll turn my camera so you guys can see But it's just like books and papers and stuff on my and tables I a pen and paper and blood person I always map it out on pen and paper first and then I move it into a system because you get So bogged down or maybe confused when you're trying a new system that you don't set it up properly Like I got into click up first and I was like well crap this isn't set up right And I had to like wipe it and redo it from the ground up So start where you are and don't overwhelm yourself and just realize that they're going to start to grow But you also need to realize the importance of it Because if you want to save yourself time or on a team member you do need that stuff on But also don't get hard on yourself because Sometimes people use it as a crutch Well I don't have systems so I can't grow my team yet or Oh I need to focus on this but then they don't actually get the other work done so it's like that fine line in me too So I know that's not like a full straight answer but it's just you need to learn a balance I kind of know it's a Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:11:32] it's a good answer because I think I feel like I probably drive Katelyn crazy because of the way that we manage our podcast is a Google sheet And it has the episodes and then on the far right of the Google she it's literally my shorthand for every step from upload to live with checkboxes in X in a Google sheet that you just clicked Lindsey Aleson: [00:11:54] It's giving me anxiety Right now. Caitlyn Allen: [00:11:56] It's actually honestly it's really not that bad compared to like some systems I've seen like at least there's no system Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:12:06] Schedule is S C H and for show notes is SN So like if you don't know me this shorthand just looks like fricking jibberish. Lindsey Aleson: [00:12:16] There's still something though So that's a start It's not like you're going at it Here's like the questions or here's like the episode and whatever and then free for all right Yeah I have everything mapped out because I have a podcast a joint podcast as well Um so we have it all mapped and click up Who does what I'm obviously the tech girl so I do the editing and I do the graphics and you know like setting all that stuff up and she does a show note So we like have it all mapped out Mmm And it helps but I'm also in click up probably It's always up on mine It's always up on my um computer um whenever I'm working So yeah it's just that's the habit you need to get into It was so hard at first when I started with the sauna but I realized that you just need to have it up and you just need to like now it's second nature I don't open up my computer without having like a Caitlyn Allen: [00:13:05] Yes I completely agree Um and I would second everything that you say The first thing I tell my clients is write out the process on a piece of paper and send me a picture of it Like because that's the only way that I'm going to know what your process actually is Um and if you do it write it write it out Like that's going to be the easiest way for us to move forward figuring out how to do it And I mean If you are nervous about creating a system or an SOP um guys it's only gonna help you like stay on track with all of the things Like I promise you it's worth it to start systematizing your business I swear Anyways I could talk about this for days So could I what what has surprised you or what have you learned about yourself as you've became an entrepreneur Lindsey Aleson: [00:13:56] Yeah That I'm actually way more capable of stuff than I realized So it's like not to be cocky but I always know are smart Cause honestly I put my first computer I taught myself how to code but just being in the corporate world they like again they kind of put you in the box So it's like I would ask to do stuff and it's like Oh no this department handles it Or Oh no we outsource this So it's like I couldn't grow So I think that's why I was drawn to this cause it was a challenge And I realized that with contract positions like I tend to come in as like cleaning up somebody else's message I haven't found like a fun term for that and I don't always want to be like your contractor but I like go in and clean up message and it's like you just get assigned stuff and like Oh crap now I need to figure out what like what to do And it's amazing what you can accomplish when you put your mind to it and you're people like believe in you and you're open to doing it So I have done stuff I never thought I would do or be able to figure out And it is just Yeah And I've gotten more so I'm an introvert and I am shy as well so I know they're two different things but I've gotten more comfortable in my own skin and yeah so like I'm horrible at in-person stuff unless I know it's like entrepreneurs but like on these podcasts even though these are videos or like I have my own podcast and we do summit I'm like all hyped up and I can like chat forever but I talked to like people in real life that have nothing to do with this and I'm just like a wall Flower I'd rather be like with a pet if there's like animals there are with the kids Caitlyn Allen: [00:15:21] That's so funny Dannie are you an introvert or an extrovert ?Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:15:24] So every time I take the NBTI test um my first letter changes So I'm always N F J but the E or the I changes constantly so I'm probably what they call an ambivert Caitlyn Allen: [00:15:43] That's interesting Yeah I'm also an introvert as well and Z so I can totally relate to that though Like most people would not call me an introvert It's super funny Um but I think that is something that you can really play on as an entrepreneur too is are those strengths or weaknesses I think a lot of people are like Oh you're an introvert That's a weakness And I'm like No I can do stuff online that you guys like That word was never possible or that I never even thought I could do and do it very well even though I'm an introvert So Lindsey Aleson: [00:16:19] Cause you like to be alone and yes press and normally during those times I spend learning something new or working on my own stuff or reading or so it's just it's how you like to recharge So people always think introvert means shy or not a people person Well that is so not that is so not the case That's why I always like to say I'm an introvert and I'm shy because it's two different things But yeah like you guys can't see I'm here with my cat like my idea of a good night and is watching Harry Potter or reading depending what mood I'm in and snuggling with my cats on the couch Caitlyn Allen: [00:16:51] That's awesome Yeah I I'm definitely an introvert and I am shy but I'm very good at faking it that I'm not Um so let's walk through a typical day for you What does Are you a morning person Are you an evening person and what does your like system look like for the day?Lindsey Aleson: [00:17:12] So I'm definitely an evening person I'm definitely not a morning person I actually don't even think I got up until like 10 today which is a little bit later than I try So I normally get up at like 9:30 10 I don't take any calls before 10 which I love having that flexibility besides one contract position I had like a 7:00 AM meeting on Tuesdays which kills me But um then I normally hop into I normally talk about my contract work first So I rotate I have I think four contract positions So it's a lot all in different product management system tools So you know I just I just tackle one at a time Um I usually forget to eat lunch Um cause I have just so busy working Um but yeah I pretty much worked from the time I get up till the time I got to sleep And right now it is because I have so many contract positions Um but normally when the boyfriend gets home we go have dinner at my mom's because she lives in the same apartment complex So which is nice Um and he works super early so he also wants to go to bed early which kills me because I like Set in bed with my mind racing But I yeah I pretty much just take it one step at a time one focus at a time and I have it all mapped out and click up So even for me like that's my system So I literally have check this product management tool for this company check this product management tool for this company so I can check stuff off my list while still being one one minded Because like I am using so many tools right now It is crazy Caitlyn Allen: [00:18:40] Do you ever get overwhelmed with the amount of tools or the amount of cleanup projects that you have and how have you figured out how to streamline that Lindsey Aleson: [00:18:50] Um I do So one of the main things because I am in so many tools is the main thing that I did was I do map it out and click up so I don't forget So right And what I've learned is so I'm sure we're very similar probably have a bunch of tabs up I felt an online entrepreneur thing So what I do is all like Say one one team I'm on uses Monday and I really don't like it but I'm used to it cause it's been like a year now But it's like I just take it out into its own tab and I have my time tracker and the Monday and just all of that stuff So I try to keep it as One track focus as possible Um and then the main thing is if I realize I'm getting overwhelmed is to take days off Mmm So I live in Southern California so I love going to Disneyland So I already have some days plan to like go like on February 2nd I know this won't air yet We're going to go on the new star Wars ride Um that just opened up that I heard is amazing Um but just kind of plan those in or realize if you need to take a break especially Like for me again being introverted when there's so many people interaction or so overwhelmed sometimes I just need to relax that it's Oh okay I feel we beat ourselves up and that's when more stress happens and it's taken me a while to realize that And most of the time if you miss like something small it's not the end of the world Like unless somebody is like literally in a launch but like if something's slightly delayed and you need to take care of your muscle or physical health 100% okay And most clients don't even care as long as you're up front and don't just like disappear and then be like Oh Hey like I you know fell off the face of the earth and didn't get back to you Um so I think that's how That's how I keep one track minded And if I realize that I'm getting stressed or tired cause I know my body signs to take that time off Um because you can't do that again in the corporate world you can't do that I can't be like Whoa you know I feeling stressed today I can't go into work Right So it's a benefit that you have working for yourself and I think you need to take advantage of it Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:20:44] I love both of these tips I want to dive into the second one but before my brain loses it for the first one um I'm going to share a tool the tool Um there's this tool called work Kona For Google Chrome which I live and die by It lets you create tab groupings and then save the grouping of tabs and you can like one click open the tab collection So I have tab collections by client and I can click on the client and all of the websites whatever that I use for that client open when I click it And that has so minimized my like Tab overdose syndrome That's helpful I have not heard of that tool It's a lifesaver and it defaults to your Google Chrome homepage So like when you open Chrome you land on where Kona and then you choose what tab collection you want to start with Caitlyn Allen: [00:21:40] Yo the pro version is only $6 Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:21:44] You don't even need the pro version if you don't have a ton of collections Caitlyn Allen: [00:21:49] Yeah Just so it's like 10 workspaces for free like yeah Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:21:52] that's plenty Oh my gosh Well anyway to the second point though I think this is huge I think in a weird way Caitlin I think you would agree season four is becoming the season of mental health And I think that as therapy and mental health and anxiety become more acceptable conversations in the broader culture I think the entrepreneurs space is finally talking about this too and the things that you shared like taking a day off taking a step back are huge Even your comment about one track mind I think can actually be A solution here Like what if we Pomodoro our entire day and like not the 25 minute Pomodoros but what if we like one track mind one thing at a time our entire day we've like gotten so sucked into this Multitasking is everything But there was a study done that actually read about working at Google that you lose like 10 IQ points for every task you're doing simultaneously or something like that I love those tasks Caitlyn Allen: [00:23:00] Task switching not good Lindsey Aleson: [00:23:03] Yeah Kills it Kills your productivity and then you make mistakes or stuff's not done Right Um so yeah that's that's pretty much what I do I don't do it in the 25 minutes but I do that exactly Is I Work through my day in those chunks and it really saves me time because people are like well your pickup looks so like busy I'm like but if you take it at once one step at a time like figure out what you need to work on for the day and one step at a time Mmm It is It's huge It's huge Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:23:30] So I want to wrap up with a question that I hope will be helpful to those that are listening You exist at this intersection of design and tech and both of those pieces are meant to simplify our lives Design visually simplifies our life tech like Logistically simplifies our life What one tip would you give entrepreneurs that you've learned from working in this space literally since you were 11 Um to try and simplify their lives Lindsey Aleson: [00:23:59] So I think the big thing is you don't have to do everything yourself and you probably shut it so Um I realized that when people are just starting out though they like to do stuff themselves cause they don't have the budget But not doing it yourself doesn't mean you have to hire somebody necessarily Um like if you're not a designer don't go make your own logo Just go buy a premade one and they're like 25 bucks on creative market right Because nothing harms you worse Then poor design or a poor system that is horrible for a user or a client Um so you don't that doesn't mean you have to go spend I dunno $1,000 on a professional like Branding and I don't even know I don't do branding Um so I don't know what it's like running for but I mean you really shouldn't when you're starting out either though So just take it one step at a time Um again you want to people want to jump to the finish line on everything but it takes steps and just Stay in the step you're in and get the help you need but that doesn't always mean you have to drop thousands and thousands of dollars on something Caitlyn Allen: [00:25:07] Yes Start where you are and then grow But you do not have to like spend all this money when you first start out just because you think that you need to know all the things I yeah I totally Mmm I think that that is a great uh A great thing that many side hustlers need to like take into account is like you don't have to have a website to start your business Like I don't know why people assume that you have to have a website and you have to have all the social media platforms and you have to Whatever It's like you don't have to have a system in place Just do the thing start doing the thing and then grow from there Exactly Oh my gosh this was such a great episode because I feel like you and I are very very similar Um awesome So where can we find you on the interwebs Lindsey Aleson: [00:25:57] Yes So I am in the process of a rebrand but I think it'll still be blogged me lovely.com when this episode goes live Um so yeah or and all the social media is just blogged me Lovely If it changes before the show notes I'll let you ladies know but um that is where you can find me online Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:26:17] Amazing Thank you so much for hanging out with us today Lindsey Aleson: [00:26:20] Yes thank you for having me It was

Yeah So what I love the Bachelor. Jess from the Chatty Broads pops by and we break down last nights episode of the Bachelor. The highlights, low lights and who I don’t like. FOLLOW JESS ON INSTAGRAM @thebaddmom https://www.instagram.com/thebaddmom/?hl=en FOLLOW CHATTY BROADS ON INSTAGRAM @chattybroads https://www.instagram.com/chattybroads/?hl=en -------------------------------------------- FOLLOW MICHAEL YO on INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/michaelyo/ EVERYTHING YO: http://michaelyo.com WATCH ALL INTERVIEWS ON  YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/user/michaelyo1/videos?view_as=subscriber MICHAEL YO STAND UP DATES JAN 10th & 11th Sacramento Punchline Jan 24th & 25th Salt Lake City Wiseguys Feb 7th & 8th Punchline Philly ALL TICKETS TO SHOWS michaelyo.com/tour --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/michaelyoshow/support

Today on the pod, we're joined by Jost Sauer. Jost Sauer is an author, acupuncturist, therapist and all round legendary character who has a deep passion for health and fitness. Jost's loves to share his ongoing discoveries about making lifestyle your best medicine through his books, blogs, articles, workshops and retreats. Jost share's his experience using the principals of the Tao to create health and vigour in the body, mind and spirit. Jump in folks, it's a fascinating, mind expanding ride.   Jost and Mason explore: Jost's journey from drugs to the Tao. The power of the Taoist practices. The importance of integration when "enlightened" states are experienced. Yin and Yang theory. The TCM body clock. The matrix of the Qi cycle. Herbal alchemy and personal practice -  "I use my practice to correct symptoms, and I'd do the herbs to nourish my soul."   Who is Jost Sauer? Jost (aka the lifestyle medicine man) was born in Germany in 1958 and is an ex-hippie, anarchist and drug runner turned acupuncturist, popular author and healthy lifestyle expert. His background includes competitive skiing, body-building, and ironman training, but after post-drug suicidal depression led him to martial arts and the study of TCM, he discovered the power of Qi, the cycle of Qi of Chinese medicine and that a natural rhythmic lifestyle holds the secrets to anti-ageing, health and success. Jost has been using lifestyle therapeutically for his clients for over 20 years. Jost is an expert in Chinese Medicine, which he lectured in for over a decade at the Australian College of Natural Medicine, he has been running successful health clinics since 1991, initially specialising in addiction recovery, and has treated tens of thousands of clients. His passion is sharing his ongoing discoveries about making lifestyle your best medicine through his books, blogs, articles, workshops and retreats.    Resources:  Jost Website Jost Facebook Jost Instagram Jost Youtube   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify! We got you covered on all bases ;P   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: (00:00) Jost, thanks so much for being here, man.   Jost: (00:01) Thank you. It's amazing.   Mason: (00:02) It's so good to meet you man. And it was so cool. Everyone here might be a little bit of a gap between the interviews, but I've just had Nick Perry on the podcast this morning and I know I've already told you, but he really wanted me to tell you he's a massive fan of yours. He was-   Jost: (00:15) It's awesome to hear that.   Mason: (00:17) Yeah. And I am as well. Let's jump in, in where you first started getting your fascination with Chinese medicine and Taoism. You were just 10 years old, were you saying?   Jost: (00:27) Yes. It was back in 68. I was just 11 years old and I was fascinated into China. China was on my mind, on my radar, and the cultural revolution was big. So, I started writing letters to the Chinese committee and-   Mason: (00:41) Well, what was the Chinese committee?   Jost: (00:44) There was the public affairs committee in which we are running the cultural revolution. They were communists big time. Yeah. And I started expressing my interest and what an amazing philosophy that is. Obviously, I had no idea that cultural revolution and China's philosophy actually got nothing in common.   Mason: (00:58) Yeah.   Jost: (00:59) And I talked about Yin and Yang and all that kind of stuff and how fascinated I am by the magic of it.   Mason: (01:07) How did you learn about Yin and Yang?   Jost: (01:08) Not by these sort of interplay of forces. I was already fascinated by it, because I mean kung-fu started to evolve and came to the West. And so, the whole idea of Yin and Yang, sort of I saw those symbols already, but I didn't really know what it meant but I was drawn to it intuitively. So, some people would say, "It must be past life," whatever. "It most likely is the case, because why would you be interested in it?" Yeah?   Mason: (01:36) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Jost: (01:36) Because I wasn't really interested in the mundane world. And I grew up in Germany, in Western Germany when post war economy was peaking and everything was about working hard to succeed to get the house and the cars and the prestige. And I said, "No, I don't want this."   Mason: (01:52) Yeah. And you were young, when you got that. Right?   Jost: (01:55) Yeah. I didn't want it. I just always already was dreaming myself being on top of the mind, the magic and the sorceress and evolving the forces from the cosmic and doing sort of martial art fairytales, like what you see this day in crouching tiger. This sort of stuff I dreamed about over and over. But every time I mentioned that to people, obviously everyone said, "Oh, you're just a dream." And so, I realised I can't really talk much about it. And, yeah. I mean, I was 14 and someone gave me hashish, very good quality from Amsterdam, because I lived only one hour away from Amsterdam.   Mason: (02:33) Yeah.   Jost: (02:34) So, I had drugs and then I realised, "Oh, it is a reality." So, obviously I started to explore the drugs. And I got into university, I studied social work, but I also love that psychedelic aspect more and more and more. I moved to Amsterdam when it was 19, 20. And so, I worked there for a while. I did my experience year in social work there in Amsterdam in the Milky Way.   Mason: (03:00) [inaudible 00:03:00]. Nice.   Jost: (03:01) The classic Milky Way where they sell hashish on the ground floor, and then they do counseling on the top floor. It's like the-   Mason: (03:08) ... the whole package.   Jost: (03:10) Yeah, the whole package. Amsterdam in those days, whatever your interest is, there's a business.   Mason: (03:16) Yeah, right.   Jost: (03:17) Whatever you want, someone sells it to you.   Mason: (03:19) Yeah. Okay.   Jost: (03:22) And there were some straight people in those days, but they lived outside Amsterdam. And even the cops, the police, [inaudible 00:03:30] had red hair, henna in there hair, they had earrings. One day we were smoking hashish in the car in my really bumped out VW van and we were in the stop sign and smoking. We couldn't even look through the windows. And we heard a knock at the window. We put the window down, and there was a cop there. And he said, "Hey guys, you can't park here." "Okay, man." So, we kept driving in Amsterdam. So, everything went down. You just do it. So, you explore the psychedelic on every level. So, I really went with it and I wanted more of it. But, exploring more by drugs doesn't work. That was the big learning curve.   Mason: (04:15) How long did it take you to learn that?   Jost: (04:17) I was 22, 23 by the time I realised, "I can't get more on drugs."   Mason: (04:23) Well, it's something to get. That's interesting to even ever be able to catch that and get that. Is that because you had an intention?   Jost: (04:30) I was a drug dealer by then. I was organized. I always loved the entrepreneurship, so I had access to quantities big time, which is all in my books. I talk about it in my books.   Mason: (04:43) Especially in high-   Jost: (04:43) Higher and Higher, Drug Repair That Works, fully describe the stories.   Mason: (04:45) Oh man, I'm really looking forward to reading this.   Jost: (04:48) Yeah. It's full, it's incredible really. Great stories like dealing with Chinese people in Amsterdam, with opium and things like that. In those days it was pretty hardcore.   Mason: (04:58) Did they have genuine Chinese opium den's?   Jost: (05:02) Yeah. Full on. It had everything. You had an underground scene. So, it was like the Chinese were running the drugs. They were just like the Hell's Angels were running the drugs. The had Hell's Angels cafes. It was enormously multicultural. But for some reason, it all worked. They knew their territory and everyone kept sort of by the boundaries very well.   Mason: (05:26) Yeah. Okay.   Jost: (05:27) But because I had access to so many drugs, I could have what I wanted. And I had access to really the best mescaline. I mean, I'm talking to serious quality in those days, and LSD as much as I want. I actually came to Australia with a bottle of LSD liquid. And I actually took it with me to Nimbin in 1981-   Mason: (05:49) And became the king of the town.   Jost: (05:50) I was in the pub one day, in the middle of Nimbin.   Mason: (05:55) Yeah.   Jost: (05:56) We're talking '81 Friday night pub. And there was a guy, I was beside this guy at the counter. And I asked him, "Do you want some LSD liquid?" And he looked at me if asking me a thirsty man in the desert, "Do you want some water?"   Mason: (06:09) Yeah, right.   Jost: (06:11) And I said, "Yeah, of course." So, I gave him two drops in the scooner. And within half an hour, he was just like going all over the place. It was serious stuff.   Mason: (06:20) That was good.   Jost: (06:20) Yeah. The whole pub suddenly knew, there's this German guy who's got a bottle of LSD liquid, the real thing. So, there were 50 people in the pub, so I put everyone two drops in. The whole pub, off their face. So, some people-   Mason: (06:37) And Nimbin has never been the same again.   Jost: (06:38) ... have never had that quality.   Mason: (06:39) Yeah, right.   Jost: (06:40) Because, we told them serious quality. It was pure. Three drops would've burnt to your brain. So, I made sure everyone only two drops. But a lot of people, in that center of Nimbin, they couldn't... they were going in circles and couldn't hack it. It was just too much.   Mason: (06:56) Who are you?   Jost: (07:01) So, I had an incredible introduction to Nimbin, because within three weeks the whole bottle went that night and everybody knew me. But I lived in Nimbin for the whole year, and I survived on jobs. One day I went to the job vacancy board, end up with a job there. And there was helping the artist to upgrade the murals, all the pictures of Nimbin.   Mason: (07:26) Oh, nice.   Jost: (07:26) And I got this beautiful job, for six months paid, to, to work on the murals and all those pictures.   Mason: (07:32) Yeah.   Jost: (07:33) And people came up, "How did you get the job?"   Mason: (07:36) Yeah.   Jost: (07:36) I said, "I went to the job vacancy board." There was only one job on that job vacancy board in 20 years.   Mason: (07:45) I mean, there's some kind of flow there.   Jost: (07:47) Yeah, it's sort of faith, yeah?   Mason: (07:48) Yeah. Obviously, there's some kind of faith. I mean, like some kind of, you bring in the lady sky dancer kind of energy as well. You would have been like, yeah, you're cruising on some kind of etheric reality.   Jost: (07:58) Yeah.   Mason: (07:59) And so, the whole time, did you maintain your interest in Chinese medicine and Taoism during this?   Jost: (08:05) Yes. All along. Because, always when I was doing the drugs, it always is working with Yin and Yang symbol that came to me all the time.   Mason: (08:12) In artistry?   Jost: (08:13) Yeah, in artistry. Yeah. I just saw those symbols all the time. And I did the Chinese philosophy. Every poetry I could get, I was putting down. I was looking for the Chinese artists books. Obviously, when I lived in Nimbin, I lived in [inaudible 00:08:28] and I lived with someone who introduced me to the macrobiotic cooking, the Chinese cooking. And then, I learned about Tai chi, I learned about Qigong. I mean, I came from Amsterdam heavy on drugs, addicted to speed and every possible drug known to man, I came to Nimbin and I got off drugs.   Mason: (08:50) Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's very interesting.   Jost: (08:50) So, I went to Nimbin to get off drugs.   Mason: (08:52) Yeah.   Jost: (08:54) And, so actually I didn't do much drugs in Nimbin.   Mason: (08:57) What was it about where you were at?   Jost: (08:59) Because, I arrived really broken from the drugs, because I tried to get the Tao on drugs.   Mason: (09:05) Interesting.   Jost: (09:06) I tried to reach that consciousness on drugs. I tried to reach it. And because I had access to as many drugs as I wanted, there was no limitations to how much I could explore. And I realised very quickly, it will not work. I realised by then, "Okay, it shows me what I need and what I want, but it will not deliver."   Mason: (09:29) And so, okay, let's talk about that peak experience, because that's something that comes up again and again. How do you see the relevance of using these psychedelics now in the search for the Tao. And then there's one thing I've said there, there's a bit of contradiction there in terms of searching for the Tao in the first place.   Jost: (09:50) I've done the drug, so I can't really judge drugs. So, it would be hypocritical. My personal experience is you don't need the drugs to find it.   Mason: (09:59) Yeah, right.   Jost: (10:01) I actually haven't done drugs for over 35 years. Not because I shouldn't have drugs, it's because I write books about it. I actually don't want, because it just takes me backwards not forwards. So, because I studied under that Chinese master, I studied in all kinds of Chinese martial art practices and meditation practices and I've explored really good revenues with them, with all kinds of avenues with masters I met in my time. And I was explored to cosmic. I was introduced to cosmic consciousness via techniques. And that took me further as on the drugs. I couldn't go further. Then, I met those techniques, and in particular with under [inaudible 00:10:40], who run the transcendental meditation with the Maharishi in the '60s. I met him and he was my main... the main guru I followed. And he was a friend of Osho. We're talking back obviously 25, 30 years when it all started. And so, he introduced me to the cosmic consciousness via a meditation technique that took the next level from the transcendental meditation to the spontaneous expression that the transcendental meditation only you could do in a contained form by sitting down.   Mason: (11:11) Yeah.   Jost: (11:11) So, they had this big fall out in the '60s. [inaudible 00:11:16]... that you actually need to learn, make the body stand up to express your energies more effectively so you can actually open up all the [inaudible 00:11:22] channel and all the other points. So, the water [inaudible 00:11:25] points that all lead up to the brain to hold them up for this aspect of the cosmic consciousness that's all within us. According to my personal experience in having studied both modalities, like the cosmic consciousness of walking by the meditation and having done LSD and mescaline and etc, and all the mushrooms, there start on the same pathways. There start there. But, the technique goes further, simply because when you take a drug, you've got a chemical running through your system and it directs you what to do. Whereas, if you don't have a chemical, you're spontaneous. You can take it to a level where you're not subject to the chemical.   Jost: (12:08) So, the chemical can take you to say to step eight, but it may leave you at step eight. So, you start at step one, bang straight to step eight. It can do that within 20 minutes, but then the chemical may leave you there, because you got a software now running through your system.   Mason: (12:26) Well, this is the whole nature of having a complete system that through antiquity right has been proven and in its holistic nature can work in moving a human forward verse the Western what we do is we'll take one particular meditation technique out of a very advanced system, and then apply that, and then sit there excessively with it. And you see like with transcendental meditation, right?   Jost: (12:46) Yeah.   Mason: (12:47) So, how did you complete the system? Obviously, you've just moved through different techniques and adopted what you need out of them. Is that something that just happened for you through your will or intention or subconsciously? Or, did you purposely go and look for that?   Jost: (13:01) Because, I want more.   Mason: (13:02) Yeah. Okay.   Jost: (13:04) I want more. I'm the classic definition of an addict. I want more.   Mason: (13:06) Does that still motivate you?   Jost: (13:10) I search.   Mason: (13:11) Are you still searching, or is that-   Jost: (13:14) I've got really good techniques now, because I'm 61 years old. So, I've obviously have found my ways, my techniques I can work with. But there are those techniques I work with, firstly of all this, the cosmic consciousness via the meditation technique derived from the Vedas, which is the VC environment cosmic meditation. Which Is spontaneous expression. So that is the equivalent in the Taoist tradition, is the yuanyou meditation, the ecstatic travel. So, that's spontaneous. But then, I also study the lineage of the Tai Chi, of the Chen family. So, the Chen family, has got an enormous, powerful way to get to your right up to the top, but it's way of the body.   Mason: (14:01) Who's the Chen family?   Jost: (14:02) The Chen family started from the Chen village. They're the ones who started Tai chi in the 1600s.   Mason: (14:07) Wow. Okay.   Jost: (14:09) We're talking 1640 when the general in that Chen village introduced the first form that is now in the West, known as Tai chi. It wasn't martial art, but he took it from the Buddhist and from the Taoist. So, there's a taoist cultivation principle in there, the Buddhist transcendence and the ability to generate your energy so you can fight and be a victor, so you can win. So, it's martial art. So, it's a combination of a longevity of strengths, of power, martial art, but also transcendence way, the Buddhist view. And so, that form was fiercely guarded for 400 years by the Chen family. Because in those days, when you develop a form, you don't show others, because it's your livelihood of survival. Because, your form gives you the strengths over others. Which is why in the 1800s, all the bodyguards for the caravans would travel the country and to protect the cars off the bandits, they used Chen fighters that are cheap people from the Chen village, because they were the best fighters.   Jost: (15:22) And so, the Chen Tai Chi utilizes this opening up the cosmic consciousness in a massive, in an extremely grounded way. So, you become very, very solid. Really so solid, you can't move a Chen fighter. It's just bang, you're solid like a pyramid. You just root yourself into the ground. You're trying to move like a Chen fighter, it's not possible. You can take a big Mack, truck, not possible. And they're doing all kinds of experiments and presentations and demonstrations on YouTube, where those 10 fighters can't be moved by 100 people. So, you developed this enormous solidity, this enormous power that is incredible. And it's all in the body.   Mason: (16:05) Yeah.   Jost: (16:05) And there's always the Jing. And the Jing, then to the Shen, and then obviously the Qi. And/or Jing, Qi, Shen, whichever way you want to put first, but it's works via what we've given. Because, the strengths, the power that the Chen family tapped into and developed over the hundreds of years, based on the Taoist principle, but is now available to people. That allows them to utilize this in order to deal with obstacles in life, in order to become strong, in order to become fit.   Jost: (16:35) So, what I learned with my cosmic consciousness techniques, especially with my hippie life and things like that back in the... 40 years ago-   Mason: (16:42) Yeah. You got to really explore.   Jost: (16:43) Yeah. You go right out there, but not grounded.   Mason: (16:49) Yeah. That sounds familiar.   Jost: (16:51) So, I went right out there. So, when I was 22, 21, 19 with all the drugs, I was just so out there. I could see the whole creation of the universe. I was as ready to tell God what to do.   Mason: (17:04) Yeah. I hear you. Highly existential.   Jost: (17:09) Boom!   Mason: (17:09) Yeah.   Jost: (17:11) So out there, and understanding everything. I even could've looked at a quantum mechanics formula and, "Yeah. I get this." It's unbelievable.   Mason: (17:23) Well, that's like there is a somewhat reality to whether you can intellectually ground in and an apply something being tapped into that source field where all information comes from.   Jost: (17:34) Yeah, that's it. You tap into it. It's like, it's all there. And the drugs take you there, but they don't teach you how you get there, and they don't tell you and they don't teach you how to return. Yes.   Mason: (17:46) And then, how to take any kind of any kind of... how to realise and form anything in reality with what you've tapped into as well.   Jost: (17:56) Yeah. It's called to integrate it.   Mason: (17:57) Yeah.   Jost: (17:58) And most importantly, how to tell others what it is. You can't communicate with others.   Mason: (18:03) Yeah.   Jost: (18:03) So, I went right out there and I realized very quickly when I expressed my position, which was totally removed from the local point that other people were operating on. If I then reflected my perception of reality from my point of view, the people at the local point couldn't find... they couldn't get me. And as I more and more realized, it's not of any use.   Mason: (18:31) That's a harrowing realization when you find that no longer... that's not useful.   Jost: (18:37) Yeah. So you see it, but you don't know what to do with that.   Mason: (18:40) Yeah. Okay.   Jost: (18:41) Yeah.   Mason: (18:42) And so, that was a catalyst for you whenever you want more. You got frustrated.   Jost: (18:45) First of all, it made me angry.   Mason: (18:46) Yeah. Well, was that because you've done so much? You've done so much work and you'd realized so much and yet you couldn't... Was that what was frustrating?   Jost: (18:54) Yeah. First of all, what happened to you, first, I couldn't express. I could say, but I couldn't express it suitably nor effectively.   Mason: (19:01) Yeah. [inaudible 00:19:02], I kind of get that when you're like, "Hey, I experienced this." And people go, "Oh yeah, no, I know what you mean." You're like, "No, you don't." And that frustration that you can't actually communicate who you are genuinely as a person, right? You don't have the stamina, or the... You don't have the ability to slow down and consciously, consistently communicate who you are with the world, right? You need to do everything right-   Jost: (19:28) Not slow, not consistent, all over the place, because obviously that what held my perception together is Yin. So, whatever I perceived, it didn't have a connection. For me, it was obvious, but for others who are trying to observe, they couldn't follow. That's classified as psychosis.   Mason: (19:49) Yeah, absolutely.   Jost: (19:50) So, I developed all kinds of various levels of psychosis. Which was very interesting once again, because by being right out there and actually unable to integrate, you get an incredible insight into how society works, because you an outsider looking in, Timothy Leary. Yeah? So, suddenly I was out there watching in, but couldn't go in. And first of all that made me angry, because if the organism can't express itself, that other people want to listen to and follow, the Yang rises. That means the Yang and the liver rises, and it's anger. So, which means in those days it translated, I became an anarchist. So, from the hippie, I became an anarchist. Now, I become angry with society, so I started to blame society.   Mason: (20:40) Which is the classic pattern.   Jost: (20:41) Yeah. I told people, "Society is fucked. We are going to fucking blow this all up."   Mason: (20:45) Well, that's somewhat even the, as you come back down, it's almost a search for identity. You need something to oppose in order to get some formation for yourself, right? And who you are and what you stand for.   Jost: (20:57) Yeah, because you need to be integrated.   Mason: (21:00) Yeah.   Jost: (21:00) The thing is we, this is the thing as being in this physical form of being here in this world is we need to be working with others. At the soul, we are united with everyone. But when we incarnate into this world, we feel separation. And then, we open up with drugs. We're going to back to the cosmic consciousness, where everything's united. But now, I can't integrate that. Which is why it made me angry. And everyone that was with me in my times, or my hippy buddies, we all became anarchist.   Jost: (21:31) So, we started getting very violent with these cops and demonstrations. And yeah, it became dark. It became very, very dark. And so, it was more a means of trying to make sense of myself, as you said. It's right. And then, I had this opportunity back in, we're talking... just in the turn of 1980 to 1981, I had an opportunity to escape, because by that time the police was after me, the army was after me, the drug bust went bad, the drug dealers were after me, the bikers were after me. It was a little too much.   Mason: (22:07) That screw your head just a little bit too much.   Jost: (22:10) So, I lived illegal already in the underground. But if the bikers are also after you, it's like, "Get out."   Mason: (22:19) That's when it's real. Yeah.   Jost: (22:21) And, on this Sunday night, someone offered me to go to Australia on a plane to be a translator. And within three days, I was on the plane. I had no idea what I was doing. This is one of the things you go with the flow. So, I landed in Sydney in 1981, and I landed... So, that was in Sydney. And obviously, in those days the plane flew four days. And four days in a plane as a drug user, my God, you'd have to take a lot of drugs with you. Yeah? So, obviously I had packs of, stacks of gear with me. When I arrived in Sydney, I realized that I had a big block of Lebanese hash in my pocket I forgot to smoke. And when I was in the queue, I thought, "I'd better go to the toilet to destroy the evidence." Because I thought, "If they're going to find this, it's not a good way to start my journey in Australia." Obviously I looked very suspicious. Long hair, bare feet, green pants, purple jacket. I didn't look quite normal.   Mason: (23:17) Yeah. The whole look, yeah.   Jost: (23:21) So, I went off to the toilet to destroy the evidence, but a custom officer followed me. And I thought, "Oh shit, I can't destroy it." And I thought, "Okay, maybe they haven't noticed me. Maybe everything's got to be fine." So, I got to the custom, to the queue, and obviously straight they took me into the room and searched everything. And they found the hashish. And they said, "What's this?" And I said, "Look, I forgot to smoke it." And they looked very, very puzzled and the found all the amphetamine pills, I had a lot of drugs with me. And they said, "What's this?" And I said, "I'm a junkie. I need it to stay calm." They found the bottle with the LSD liquid which was in a nose drop bottle. This guy says, "Nose drop." So, they didn't look at that. They didn't taste it for some lucky reason. And then they told me to fuck off. And I thought, "gee this is a very rude country."   Mason: (24:10) Yeah.   Jost: (24:11) It was like, Australia, my God, different to Amsterdam and Germany where they don't swear. And I said, "Where should I go?" And they looked at me and said, "You go to Nimbin."   Mason: (24:21) No way.   Jost: (24:23) So, I've never heard of Nimbin. So, I got out of the custom, I asked him, "Can I get my hashish back? And they said, "No, fuck off." So, for some reason I didn't get thrown in jail. Nothing. One of those weird stories. It wasn't that much in hindsight, it was only about five grams. But it was good block of beautiful Lebanese red hashish. And anyway, I got out of the airport and hitchhiked north, for Nimbin. And I arrived. I'll never forget that. All the cars until Lismore looked ordinary.   Mason: (24:59) Yeah.   Jost: (25:00) Then hitchhiking from Lismore to Nimbin, everything changed. Cars stopping with three wheels and three different wheels and the goat in the back and weird looking people. I said, "This is my world."   Mason: (25:12) Yeah, I hear you. All right. So then you land and... Okay. So, we've kind of almost gone from that, from the void comes the one, the Tao, and then the two, the Yin and Yang.   Jost: (25:22) Yes, correct.   Mason: (25:23) So, the Yin and Yang is a continuing concept for you and obviously a reality and continues to be today. Where have you from that period to now, how have you related to Yin and Yang in life? And I know this is a huge conversation, but especially for people listening who haven't quite understood the realities and intricacies and all of Yin and Yang dominating and being the reality of their body and the universe, where are you now in terms of communicating in Yin Yang in your relationship with it?   Jost: (25:56) Yeah. Obviously, I understand that everyone of us is on a journey here. And obviously in Chin... In the taoist philosophy, they call it, your contract with heaven. So, the highest form of medicine in Chinese Medicine is nourishing your destiny. Because I've been using Chinese Medicine for 30 years now, and as a registered acupuncturist I obviously work with all kinds of people from all different walks of life, but I never ever used the herbs to treat a symptom. I always identify the person's destiny first.   Mason: (26:36) Dude, yeah. Speaking our language.   Jost: (26:38) Yeah. Because, everyone, it's just like the universe. Everything is created with a purpose, and that's the Tao. The Tao runs everything. So, we know this purpose, but not so much on conscious level we can feel it, but very, very difficult to put into words. And so, Yin and Yang, the fluctuation between the polar forces guides me along this journey. That means I get drawn to an absolute. Then, I realize it's not me, but it shoots me to the next absolute, which is the opposite. And then, it's not me either, then it shoots me to the next absolute. So, it's like a process. So, between Yin and Yang.   Jost: (27:16) So, obviously for me it was like, first of all, getting involved with the cultural evolution back in '68 when I realized it had nothing to do with Taoism. And so, I was always exposed to communism. Then, I actually realized, I found the real modality, which is why the Tao isn't, but that took me to the drugs. The drugs then took me to the anarchism, to violence and pain, which then led me to the realization it's within. And that led me to the meditation, which, so that was the Yin aspect. And then from the Yin aspect, I realized I need to strengthen myself, otherwise I can't express what I see. So, if I'm weak and I can't fulfill my destiny. So, in order to fulfill my destiny, in order to live my destiny, I have to go Yang. And that took me to Chinese martial art. And Chinese martial art, well, we're talking now 35 years ago, my first exposure was kung-fu. And I practiced very hard.   Jost: (28:13) And that then led me to the Chen family, the Chen Tai Chi, which is not the Tai chi that you see people do in parks. You got to look that up on YouTube, Chen Tai chi, C-H-E-N, the origin Tai Chi. It's a different world. It's very, very intense, very powerful, incredibly expressive, but it's hard to learn. It's really hard on your body. You have to work very hard. So, from the Yin, the hippie aspect of going to the cosmic consciousness, which is like without the effort, I then was taken to the Yang with a lot of effort. So, for me, the Yin Yang is always the mix between receiving, perception and having a mental idea, "oh gee I love this." And then the yang, the effort to integrate that. So, which is Gongfu, effort over time. That's the classic translation of Kung-Fu, effort over time.   Jost: (29:09) So, that means I constantly get the idea what I want, the vision, the beauty via poetry or via music or via meditation or even via sexual practices, I get the idea, but then the Yang via the effort, I moved towards it. So, this is one thing that I've never really discovered in the Western world, the perfect blend between your vision, your idea and the effort. So, in the West, we see success strategies, but they don't integrate with your heart so much. Because in order to integrate your heart, you need to feel it. So, now you need a practice that actually takes you into feeling. And so, this is where meditation, cosmic consciousness meditation come in too. That's where sexual practices come in. That's alchemy. So, I need to feel it, because if I put into word what I think my destiny is, then it's concept. Then, it's most likely based on a conditioning and an upbringing from a previous time or parents or I follow security principles. It's based on all kinds of other values. It's interfered with values.   Jost: (30:16) But if I go alchemically into it, that means via practice, and the Tao is alchemic. Alchemy is the way of the body. So, by working with the body, I then can actually feel it. And once I feel it, I then moved towards it. And that feeling is what they call the Yuanyu, is the ecstatic travel. So, that's where the drugs come into. So, the drugs can show you, but unless you put the effort in, the Gongfu, which is the Yang, it will not work. So, to me that's the Yin and Yang.   Mason: (30:49) Yeah. And then almost, the whole idea behind the drugs and the plant medicines is you become externally reliant on something to be able to show you that vision, which is innately in there rather than a daily practice being... that tune in and feel.   Jost: (31:03) Yes. In Chinese medicine we always say, "Don't think, feel."   Mason: (31:09) Okay.   Jost: (31:10) The whole training and the Tai Chi, "Don't think, feel." So, we've constantly like every morning and we go first into, into feeling. So, I never start the day with thinking. So, this is where I work with Yin and Yang, because the thinking takes me into the Yin not into the Yang. And so, I need to start the day with going into Yang first. And that means I'm not thinking. So, I'm actually moving. So, of course when we wake up, we want to think about all kinds of stuff, but the idea is to shut up. I spend a lot of time in, having studied under the masters, and personally direct the training under them. It was every morning. You just don't think.   Mason: (31:53) Yeah.   Jost: (31:54) You don't think.   Mason: (31:54) Which is the practice.   Jost: (31:56) Yeah. Which I explained in that book Clock on to Health in the large intestine chapter. Because, when we wake up, the energy, you see the Tao is very, very intelligent. Yeah? The Tao has given us everything what we need in order to fulfill our destiny. But in order to find our destiny, first of all, we need to feel not think.   Mason: (32:21) Yes.   Jost: (32:21) Yeah?   Mason: (32:22) Yes.   Jost: (32:22) And in order to feel, not think, the Tao has given us the uniform, and the Qi starts with Large Intestine and Lung, Lung and Large Intestine. And the Large Intestine is the organ that lets go off negative thinking.   Mason: (32:38) Yes.   Jost: (32:39) So, every morning we got the opportunity to let go of thinking. Because, forgetfulness is the highest form in Taoism, the art of forgetting. But what they mean with the art of forgetting is not to think about it, to feel. But that's something you can't put into words. You try to do, and I would say we tried to do, but you can't really do it. Because, I wake up and I think about a certain area. I'll wake up immediately and think about my books, my business, what I need doing, but I can't make sense of my thoughts. Obviously, I can make sense of my thoughts, but they don't suit me. So, as soon as I get up and go into my practice, I go into feeling. Large intestine takes over, and then it delegates my thoughts into the direction that they need to go, so they're not a hindrance to me.   Mason: (33:31) Yes.   Jost: (33:31) So, that's where the Tai Chi goes into. That's why it's a martial art. When you go in front of an opponent and you start thinking, you get wrecked. It has to be spontaneous. Because, if you don't think, then you've got the highest response. And then it's always correct, because then you don't have an opinion about your opponent, nor do you have a judgment, nor do you have a feeling about any criteria. So, you are in a perfect state of neutrality.   Mason: (34:07) And you're in reality.   Jost: (34:09) Yes. You are. You're real there, you're right at the moment. And you actually look at that person as what the person is, not what you think it is. So, you're not using judgment, you're not using analysis. And then, you realize there's no need to fight that person anyway.   Mason: (34:25) Yet.   Jost: (34:25) which is why Tai Chi, this is the interesting thing, it's so Yang, but it takes you so Yin.   Mason: (34:33) In original. You're talking about original Tai Chi.   Jost: (34:35) Yeah. They are the most peaceful people I've ever met. It's makes you totally peaceful, because you actually don't see the point to fight. But, you are a little better. You can immediately change the situation, but there is no interest.   Mason: (34:51) Well, that's the irony and the cosmic giggle of the universe, right?   Jost: (34:56) Yeah. That's the Yin and Yang. So, you are in the state of Yin, but you're very Yang. When you meet those masters, they're so compassionate. They don't have an issue with you. They don't judge you. It doesn't matter what you do. Whatever habits you have, it's irrelevant, because there's not thinking. It's pure feeling. It's just like goes back to the old days when people met in the park and hit a few joints. You just feel with each other.   Mason: (35:21) Yeah.   Jost: (35:21) Yes.   Mason: (35:22) Yeah. That's the peak experience to what-   Jost: (35:24) Yeah, the peak experience, just feel with each other. In the morning have a joint, the day is your friend. Yeah? So, it's like all this hippie festivals I went into. Have a joint and straight away you communicate what you're feeling not thinking.   Mason: (35:36) And then having the, I don't know whether it's the practice or the ability or just getting to the point where you're so frustrated that you need to constantly go to something external to get that experience, even just going and having the intention. This is why I want to talk about the day plans and clock...   Jost: (35:52) Yes.   Mason: (35:52) Because, for me that fits, that slides into the lifestyle design based on the reality of how Qi transforms in our body. And it's obviously a very ancient system. It's one I feel has become, if you look at the TCM body clock and the organ clock, it's become something that... everyone's like, "Oh yeah, no, I've seen that before. This times that, this times that," and there's this like breadth of awareness but not that much depth of actually being to able to know what's going on in our organs at that time.   Jost: (36:23) Yeah.   Mason: (36:24) But, what I'm thinking is just like, with that having a joint in the morning with mates and just getting into that connection, then being able to go like those masters you're talking about at 80, at 90 years old, "What does my whole life and my lifestyle and my practice needs to look like in order to embody that, and not only feel this level of connection and compassion and love for everyone, but be transcending even what I'm feeling here on this substance and embody that and then share that with the world," that takes serious consideration. And that's kind of what I feel, for me, that's what I kind of get in... I've gone through Clock On. I've got my copy at home, and been going through it. You know what I mean?   Mason: (37:04) Like, "Yeah, I'm going to really consider this organ clock more than I have in the past and really give this a few years to permeate me and allow me to understand [inaudible 00:37:13], allow me to understand my own Qi and my own wu-xing five element phase transformation. That's what I see as the point of this, is designing a day where we can tonify from the two things, the three things, the Jing, Qi, Shen, so that then we can do exactly what you're saying in terms of being able to embody these things. So, I don't know if that's got a correct assessment, but that's been my takeaway so far. But, is that kind of fair in to what the intention is behind clocking on to this?   Jost: (37:47) Yeah. What happens is that, okay, in a Taoist tradition, our information of who we are, our true nature is energetic.   Mason: (37:56) Yeah.   Jost: (37:56) And the structure is, of our nature, is structured by meridian systems. So, before we incarnate in this physical form, we are meridians. And we actually, the energy organs exist before we incarnate.   Mason: (38:12) And the embryology is kind of proving that as well, right?   Jost: (38:17) Yeah. In Chinese medicine, we have an energy organ and a physical organ. Which is why scholars all over the world, the academic agreement is, "Let me talk Chinese, spleen. We have to write the spleen in upper cases." So, when we talk spleen in Chinese Medicine, we have spleen and Spleen. The upper case spleen is different to the lower case spleen. The lower case spleen resembles Western medicine. The upper case spleen is Chinese medicine. And Chinese medicine has identified that this energy organ exist before we are born in physical form, and it will stay with us when we leave.   Mason: (38:59) And it's referring more so to the Qi.   Jost: (39:03) It's an energy. So, what happens is that each... in order to structure this body, in order to structure the soul, which is a complex entity anyway, we are really complex beings. And, I mean, the whole of creation is very complex. But in order to hold this unity together, it's run by 12 organ systems. And that's why the 12 [inaudible 00:39:23] universe. 12 hours in the day, 12 months in a year. And the Chinese and Western philosophers agreed on the 12th. 12 months and 12 years, because they work with the yearly cycles and monthly cycles. And 12 hours in the day, by two makes it 24 hours. So, it's all held together by time. And as quantum mechanics has identified, space is in time. So, in order for the physical to exist, first of all it needs time. So, as soon as you take time out of the equation, the physical collapses. It can't exist.   Mason: (39:57) Yeah.   Jost: (39:57) So, what it means to be in the physical world rather than the spiritual world is, here in the physical world, we have time, in a spiritual world, we don't have time. So, when this organ system now goes into the physical system, now it's regulated by time. And the Taoist already tapped into that 5,000 years ago for some reason. Without them having a perception of a clock, they knew that it's time that holds it all together. Which is why so many quantum mechanics look at Chinese Medicine, which is why Niels Bohr, used the Yin Yang, as his logo as a symbol, when he did his coat of arms.   Mason: (40:38) Yeah. Right.   Jost: (40:39) And so, it's all done. If you put it up on internet, it all comes up. Niels Bohr, Yin and Yang, coat of arms. Because, he understood what quantum mechanics is trying to say. The Tao has already tapped into it many thousands of years before them. And I realized that you'd never be able to put two things together, as Heisenberg uncertainty principle says, "One cannot know the velocity of a particle and not the direction of the particle at the same time." So, you cannot be Yin and then Yang. It's always happening at the same time. So, it's Yin and Yang. That's why it never says anywhere, Yin or Yang.   Mason: (41:19) So, is this the concept that they don't, they cannot exist without each other?   Jost: (41:23) Yes. But it never is, like you can't understand who you are and the direction at the same time. Which is why thinking about your destiny will never work. It's based on the uncertainty principle, Heisenberg uncertainty. So, "One cannot know the velocity of the particle and at the same time know the direction of the particle." So, you can't know who you are and know the direction you go by knowing, you need to feel it. Because then, Yin and Yang becomes one.   Jost: (41:48) So, when people do drugs, Yin and Yang become one. When we observe, academically or intellectually a situation, it's a Yin or Yang. But once you take a joint, it's all one. Which is why when you're with people, it becomes like, you feel with each other on a... You know each other.   Mason: (42:09) Yeah.   Jost: (42:09) You can go into other experience that, you can go with people you don't speak their language and you smoke hashish and you suddenly connect, unite. Yeah?   Mason: (42:18) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Jost: (42:19) So, there's a lot going on. So, Yin and Yang is really exemplifying what that all is. And the Qi cycle put the whole complexity together via time. Because if you take time out of the equation, it will collapse. These days, people live, make up their own times, which is why they got all kinds of symptoms.   Mason: (42:39) Yes.   Jost: (42:40) 5:00 AM is different to 12:00 PM. 12:00 PM is different to 5:00 PM. And it has got a totally different influence on your body. If it has a different influence on your body, that means there's a totally different velocity and a different direction. It means there's a different feeling. So, how you feel at 5:00 AM is different to how you feel at 5:00 PM, but that feeling is essentially in order to understand who you are.   Jost: (43:02) So, the Qi cycle gives you the matrix of how to tap into these incredible complex information that your soul is, structured via the meridians and the 12 energy organs. So, each energy organ has got a very specific information. And the Taoists called it the orbs. The orb of the Spleen, which is the heavenly messenger. So, each organ has got a very specific information about who you are as your soul. There's all your akashic record is in each of the organs. You can tap into anything. So, the Spleen knows exactly when it comes about your intellect. Your Kidney knows everything about who you are in terms of your willpower. The Liver knows exactly when it comes in terms of your direction. But, putting that into words is not possible. So, we need to feel it. Feel, don't think.   Jost: (43:52) So, by living the Qi cycle, we tap into this different time zones, which then creates a sink into this energy organ. And now, it's almost like you open up a gateway. And every two hours, there's a different gateway to perceive a different perception about who you are, what you're feeling. If you integrate that now with action, which is doing, which is now you give the particle its direction, first of all, when you zone in to the time zone, it's a velocity. Now, you give it its direction by doing according to what it needs to be done at this time. You actually feel what you're supposed to be doing.   Mason: (44:31) Yeah.   Jost: (44:32) It's absolutely magic. So, suddenly life gets mystical and rather than mundane.   Mason: (44:40) I like that. I can do a little bit more mystical. And quite often something that's occurring in the West, is reverse in the East, is the East is, it is a reality and a fabric of society that... Let's just make it really obvious one. Qi exists, verse in the West where something that... sometimes just even talking about the Qi cycle to someone off the street, it's known as a bit of a, it's interesting like a mystical Chinese concept, a Chinese medicine concept. And quite often, I'm just curious as to your experience and really... And likewise, we're educating people about the reality of Qi and Taoist theory, so I can relate. But, how are you going about teaching people about this Qi cycle to Western reductionist minds that almost need to go like, "well, what are you talking about? What?" What is the Qi?"   Jost: (45:39) It's very, very simple. That's why I use archetypes in my book Clock on. I don't talk about the large intestine Qi. I talk about the cleaner. Okay. What I'm saying here is, you can't put into words what Qi is.   Mason: (45:51) Yeah.   Jost: (45:52) Because the definition of Qi is information, energy and consciousness. Quantum physics can measure the impact consciousness has on matter, but it can't measure consciousness. So, you will never be able to put Qi into words. So, in China, over the thousands of years, everyone has developed an association with Qi. So, you go into a village and you talk with an 80 year old man, and it's, "Oh, the Qi is very good here." The association is on common ground. Everyone has got no association with that word. In the Western world, there's not association with that word yet. So, when you talk to someone Qi, if they have an association, it's most likely so removed from what it is, because they don't have the experience in it yet. It will take a few generations for us to actually have an association.   Jost: (46:40) So, at this stage, in the Western world, most people don't have enough association in their unconscious about the word Qi. So, when they hear the word Qi, they don't know what to associate with it. So, it goes mental. So, once you've got mental there, it's not Qi.   Mason: (46:56) Yeah. I mean, once you try to intellectualize the concept-   Jost: (46:59) You can't. Niels Bohr already realized you can't put it into words. The quantum mechanics already understood it's not possible, because you've got consciousness. Once you gone into consciousness, you've got all kinds of dilemmas, because you get the double slit experiment, where the particle goes through both slits at the same time, but only one particle arrives at the wall. And kind of like quantum mechanics full of paradox. And that's Chinese Medicine. So, when you talk Qi, you're always with a paradox, because you've got the Yin and Yang at the same time. But when you talk, it's Yin or Yang.   Jost: (47:30) So, you will never be able to put Yin and Yang and Qi into words. But, because I've worked with so many people and I did so many talks in my time, I understand the dilemma of, "okay, how can you create an association in people?" Which is why this book, Clock on, I worked with, "okay, what is an association?" Instead of me talking about large intestine Qi, I talk about the cleaner. Instead of talking about the Spleen, the energy Spleen, I talk about the builder. Instead of talking about the Small Intestine Qi, I talk about the judge. Because, Chinese medicine started with archetypes and storytelling and poetry, not with the textbook. Chinese medicine didn't start at a textbook. It started with storytelling. The shamans told stories. It had beautiful feelings. It evolved the feeling in people. And that feeling then got ingrained and now develop an association. When they heard the word, it brought the feeling up. So, in Chinese Medicine, you always have to work with both. You have to bring the word to arise a feeling, otherwise it will not work. It's not based on science.   Mason: (48:42) Well, and then people are trying to lay them over each other.   Jost: (48:45) They can't.   Mason: (48:45) And they can't, right?   Jost: (48:45) No. It's a fairy tale.   Mason: (48:48) I mean, and that's the interesting in what you were just saying about if you say Spleen, and in conversation, you almost need to say Spleen earth in order to... because you can't go capital S spleen.   Jost: (49:04) Upper case spleen. It just goes on and on and on.   Mason: (49:10) And that is the interesting thing in terms of, I feel like most Westerners learning these concepts is arriving in an acceptance and acknowledges... And a feeling state rather than a thinking state when tuning in to this Qi. And rather going, "Okay, what time is it? Oh, okay, I'm waking up at Liver time. Maybe physiologically something is happening to my Liver." And feeling like that possibly could be, and there is probably a reality to that.   Jost: (49:40) Which is there in the correlation, the correspondence to that Liver time isn't actually in the large intestine time. It's never at the time.   Mason: (49:45) Well, that's the interesting thing. You can't think about the physiology necessarily. That's where I've tripped up, years ago when I was starting out, it's where I kept on tripping up. And probably when I talked to most young acupuncturists not getting taught the reality of not trying to fit this Qi model or like this reality, this gigantic system into Western pathology. Although there can be crossovers, that's fun and interesting, but you need to stay within that system that's respecting the classics, right?   Jost: (50:21) Yeah. My observation is they work very well together as long as you don't try and explain with Western words what Chinese phrases are.   Mason: (50:30) I think that's the distinction. Yeah.   Jost: (50:30) And you can use a Chinese to explain the West. I believe that both work very well, because I work with supplements which are based on Western sciences, I work with all kinds of Western science principles, but that's a different approach. It's Yin and Yang. You can't explain Yin with Yang. They are a totally different approach, but if you put the two things together, that's what I believe the future is.   Mason: (50:56) Absolutely.   Jost: (50:56) Chinese Medicine is fairytale. It's magic, it's psychedelic. It takes you into feeling, and it shows you your potential. It's power, it's magic. It makes you strong, incredibly powerful. And, it's longevity. I mean, at my age of 61, I can't relate to men of my age, because-   Mason: (51:18) Too much Jing.   Jost: (51:19) Yeah. I relate more to the 30 year old, because when I work out, I work out more on the 30 year olds level, not the 61 year old level. So, obviously I go into the Qi. If you go into chi, you always rectify symptoms. You always rectify symptoms. So, that's why I talk in my book Clock On, how to direct it. You wake up to a symptom for a reason, and Large Intestine is designed to move the symptom. So, if you use the Western signs and use Chinese lifestyle, medicine lifestyle, wow that's the potency. And I believe this is where we moving towards. And it was prophesied by Waysun Liao, a famous Tai chi master in 1974, when he wrote that book treatise of Tai Chi, and you talked to the Chen family. He talked about the Chen Tai Chi.   Jost: (52:12) I need to say there are a lot of people have a misconception of Tai chi, because what we see in the West, old people in the park is not Tai Chi. It's like saying a skateboard is a Lamborghini.   Mason: (52:21) Yeah. I mean, I think that's something that's happened in a lot of these traditional. If you look at yin yoga, then practices like restorative yoga just flopping into a position verse of very active intentional five minute hold in a position that is designed to completely transform and open a meridian, it's a very different concept. So, it's hard fucking work. And that's what Tai Chi being, "Well, this nice. I'm just going with the energy of the universe without going through the methodical work of learning to engage the [crosstalk 00:52:57].   Jost: (52:58) And your legs, and you burn your legs, it's so intense, so painful, so incredible, intense. But then, you just, you can see your direction. You can see your purpose. So, while you do the move, it's enormously intense, but you can see who you are and it moves you. So, it puts you in an altered state immediately. But Waysun Liao prophesied in the 1970s, that what the Chinese started, this [inaudible 00:53:30] and the whole Tai Chi, the Supreme ultimate, not the Tai Chi, the form, but the the supreme ultimate, the yin yang, "What they're tapping to is profound." But he said, it will be completed in the West.   Mason: (53:43) Yeah, and well, that integration model is, and that's I think there's this distinction, because this is where it's such... it's slippery. Of course, this is always going to remain slippery. The distinction to not try and layer these two systems over each other, but allow them to sit side by side and work together-   Jost: (54:03) If you're trying to sort out Chinese medicine and Western medicine, it's like giving a male, trying to sort out hormonal problems with a woman.   Mason: (54:12) Yeah.   Jost: (54:12) Or, a woman telling a man what ejaculation should be about, or a man telling a woman how she should psychologically feel. It doesn't work. It's asleep, doesn't work in harmony.   Mason: (54:23) Where can I just leave them to be who they are.   Jost: (54:27) Work in harmony. You can't understand day, when you're at nighttime. You won't say, "we're getting sick of wet. We need from now only to have dry," or, "we don't need cold anymore. We only have hot," or, "we don't need men anymore, we only have women." It's just bullshit.   Mason: (54:50) Yeah, man, sing it. Before we go, for some people that aren't aware of that organ clock, can you run us through kind of an example? A very general, because obviously this is a huge conversation. You've got two books really tapping into it, but can you run us through an example?   Jost: (55:15) Yes. It's very simple.   Mason: (55:16) Yeah. Okay.   Jost: (55:16) Yeah. You wake up today to let go of the previous day.   Mason: (55:19) Yes.   Jost: (55:19) So, you wake up to Large Intestine time. That means, Large Intestine is you go to the toilet.   Mason: (55:24) Yeah.   Jost: (55:25) You clean out your system. That's your cleaner. Before you start the day, you clean out your unit. You clean your apartment, you clean everything out. That means Large Intestine gets rid of negative thoughts. If you start the day without cleaning, the negative thoughts of yesterday will dominate you today. So, in the Qi cycle lifestyle, we always start with letting go of the old first, because it's a new day. So, we do these via Qi practices. We do this with yoga, with core training, but we don't engage with the work yet. We don't engage with talking to people. We don't engage with having breakfast yet. First of all, detox the system. And that's what pretty much like all of Western medicine cancer researchers revealed, you want to get rid of the bad cells. You want to eliminate toxins and you want to get rid of waste products, because if the bad cells, negative cells go, the good cells can flourish.   Jost: (56:29) So, in order to be healthy, first of all, we need to let go. So, that's like Large Intestine. Let go. Because if it goes, bang, then you can come in. So then, because we let go, the next thing is, we're working with the peacemaker, which is stomach Qi. And that means after we have cleaned out everything, we now sit down and have a mindful breakfast. So, we have nice, we've got to be aware we're not getting up and have breakfast. We clean out first, detox. Then, whatever time it's required to do that. Then, when we finish, we move into sitting down mindful and eating a warm breakfast. The happiest people I've met in my time in all the East, the happiest and happy, really strongest people all have cooked warm breakfast. But they do practice beforehand. So, I never have fruit juice and stuff like that.   Mason: (57:25) You don't go in and dampen the stomach.   Jost: (57:26) No. You start with warming. So, the reason why the stomach is called, why I call the stomach the peacemaker is, because the stomach is in fact your system in order to negotiate with other people in harmony. So, if you start the day correctly by going into mindfulness, you then have the ability to engage with others in a peaceful intent. So, it becomes natural. So, you have this 20 minutes where you sit and eat and go mindful and you don't multitask. If you don't, , and you multitask and you stand up and rush around, you're not the peacemaker. You're a troublemaker, because now you get to reactive throughout the day. Because, you didn't let go of your negative thoughts through your practice. You didn't have the peacemaker. You didn't settle in the morning with breakfast. Now, you've got too much negativity and you got to dump it on others. Road rage, anger, telling other people what they should be doing, getting judgemental, critical and things like that.   Jost: (58:34) The peace maker means, you're not judgemental. You just going through the day, whatever it is, but you know exactly who you are, so you keep moving. Then after that, after the peacemaker, after a beautiful peaceful breakfast, you go hard. Work very hard. And that's the builder and the emperor and that Spleen and Heart. So, you work very, very hard on your journey, on your job, on whatever needs to be doing. You know who you are, because you have seen who you are and you felt who you are during your morning practice. It was all downloaded via the breakfast. The breakfast gave you the piece, now you work hard. So, it's you start with the Yang, breakfast at Yin, then you go Yang. Then, about one o'clock, it's Small Intestine time and it's now judgment. So, that means you need to sit back and allow the whole day to be looked at. So, you stop rushing. You're in front of the judge, and the judge will look at your case, because you've done already a major part of your day. Because really when you look at, you started the day about by transforming negativity into positivity. You did the detox, you then had peaceful intent set at breakfast. You then worked very hard in your destiny. Then at one o'clock, or 1:30, you sit down... And then you sit down and you have a meal, lunch.   Jost: (59:56) And then, in the afternoon you go more into the Yin mode. And then, at five o'clock you go into Kidney time. It means you switch off from the day. And at switch off time, between 5:00 and 7:00, you're actually switching off from the day.   Jost: (01:00:13) [inaudible 01:00:13].   Mason: (01:00:16) Jake, you can edit that part, yeah?   Jost: (01:00:18) Yeah. [inaudible 01:00:18].   Jost: (01:00:27) So then, this is another important part, between 5:00 PM and 7:00 PM is exactly the same importance as between 5:00 AM and 7:00 AM. That sometime in the time, you need to switch off from the day, because the Yang phase is moving into the Yin phase. So, the Qi side is all about Yang, Yang, Yang, Yang, going to mid time. And then, from the afternoon it goes into Yin phase. But then, between 5:00 and 7:00, we need to consciously switch off. Once again, we work with the practice, a little bit of Chi Gong, a bit of yoga and it takes us away from thinking into feeling. But because it's supported by the Kidney, and the Kidney is the puppeteer. And the Kidneys are another of Yin and Yang. You actually have a direct access to the scene behind the curtain. Actually you feel mystical in that moment.   Jost: (01:01:19) So, the switch off practice, when you look at the ancient cultures, between 5:00 and 7:00, the farmers, everyone, the workers came into the village, into the center and played bowls. They're switching off from the day.   Mason: (01:01:32) That's the same with the Italians playing dominoes at the day.   Jost: (01:01:34) Yeah. Domino, connecting, not via work, connecting via play.   Mason: (01:01:44) Yes.   Jost: (01:01:44) So, if you connect via play, you work with Yin and Yang. So, that means you're actually letting go of the day. At the same time, you're embracing the joy of being in the company of others. So, this is all ancient cultures follow the Qi cycle.   Mason: (01:02:00) Yeah, you're right.   Jost: (01:02:01) And then, between 7:00 and 9:00, they all go home and then you're just by yourself, with your family, with your loved ones, and you go completely into yourself. And that's when you have another meal and a glass of wine. And it's completely just cut off from the day. It is like, now you had security at home. And Pericardium time between 7:00 and 9:00 is actually being at home. And, it's called the bodyguard in my book, because if you get this right, you will actually guard the heart off cardiovascular disease and anxiety and all kinds of other stuff. Because the Pericardium channel is the channel that got discovered in the 1600s hundreds, and it's the main channel used in order to treat CVD, cardiovascular disease, anxiety, depression, etc. And, that you regulate that simply by between 7:00 and 9:00 PM, you're just going into yourself and being with loved ones and you're not doing anything in order to project outside. You guard your heart. It's your body guard. You got your heart. It's like the body guard in front of the prime minister, it ushers all the journalists the way.   Mason: (01:03:08) Yeah.   Jost: (01:03:09) So, by seven o'clock you're going into your own world. So, it is the pajamas, whatever, cross fitting, whatever. It's irrelevant, as long as you're completely calm. And then, usually, if you follow the cycle so far, at nine o'clock, the energy goes into San Jiao, which is a mystical organ. And I call it in the book the ferry man, because it's actually involved with the lubrication. It's like a ferry man in Venice. And what it is, it's

Automation Is Life Live Episode Joshua: So good morning, everyone, and thanks for having me. So today we're going to be talking about automation and how your business can be more automated and what automation means to everyone. So I'm going to go and ask, I guess everyone, what do you think automation is? What would you say automation is? Learn more about automation at dorksdelivered.com.au Audience member: Do something once and not have to do it again. Joshua: Perfect. So removing repetition. That's a good answer. Is there anyone else that has any different understandings of what automation is? Audience member: Stuff happens without you having to do it. Joshua: That's very good. As long as it's being monitored for and you're told when it's not doing the things that it should be doing. So yeah, absolutely. Yep. That's another great example of automation. Any other answers? Audience member: Taking care of certain processes, setting them and allowing them to happen. Joshua: Yup. Yup. Absolutely. So automation is a very used buzzword at the moment around the place. And automation as I've written here, which was for Neil, but he's not here, oils just ain't oils and automations just ain't automations. I wrote that line just for him and he's not even here, jeez. Anyway. And the important thing is you need to automate as much in your business as you can, because if you don't, your competitors will. And automation is happening all the time and innovation and technology is happening all the time. And people think, "I'm scared of technology," but you go back only a few years ago, back 150 years. And refrigeration wasn't around. No one's scared of fridges now and no one's scared of microwaves now, no one's scared of a lot of things that we just take for granted. All these things are automating processes within our own home. We're able to have things washed in a dishwasher instead of slaving over a sink. So all these little things speed up your process and there's just a lot of automation happening at the moment to speed up all your processes. Automation shouldn't stop at work, though. Automation should happen at home. And so ultimately you have more time to spend with your family and your friends, because we've only got that once on this earth and that's our time. Everything else should be able to be automated. Does everyone agree? Good. Because otherwise the next 23 minutes is going to be really boring. So that's good. Everyone agrees. So as I said earlier, my name's Joshua and I'm from Dorks Delivered and Business Efficiency Experts. I've got my business cards here. Don't actually have them in the box, but if you want to pass them around, that'd be awesome. So Dorks Delivered does a lot of IT stuff, but a few years ago we found out that more and more businesses were getting us in to automate their processes, hence Business Efficiency Experts being born. So what we do is we try and automate and document... tell me if I talk too quickly as well. I naturally talk quite quickly, so, okay, cool. No worries. Pull me up on it. So yeah, so anyway, Business Efficiency Experts was born out of the need to have businesses automate their processes better. And that can be through removing repetition. That can be through better documentation processes and making sure you're doing a task once. Because you're doing it once and it can be repeated a hundred times or a thousand times, that's awesome if you're not doing it. Automation can be just documenting the processes down. So if you're... you said you had a problem with a staffing member leaving. You can make sure that the onboarding process is much faster. You then are able to have them onboard and have them profitable in a significantly faster time. It can be removing or creating accountabilities and removing any sort of repetition. So anything that is going to speed up your processes in business is giving it elements of automation. And this goes for home as well. So my home, I'd have to say out of... you've seen my home. Garry's been... lucky enough? I don't know. Audience member: Fortunate enough. Joshua: Fortunate. That sounds good. My home's very automated. When I go to bed I can call out to Alexa, which normally when I say that it starts talking, but it's not doing that here, which is good. But I can call out to Alexa and turn off all the lights, shut the gates, lock the door, turn the sauna off, turn the turn the pond waterfall off or whatever else is happening around the place and make sure everything's locked down. So very easy. You don't have to sort of be in the warm blanket reading a book and then have to have a fight over who's the one who gets out to turn the light off. So it removes arguments, automation removes arguments with your partner. So anyway, so in my spare time when I'm not doing stuff with Dorks Delivered and Business Efficiency Experts, I'm a columnist for My Entrepreneur Magazine. I've been featured on news.com.au, and soon to be published in every entrepreneur's guide, focus in on your marketing. As I said earlier, though, today I'm gonna be talking about automation and that's covered off heavily in our podcast, which is called Business Built Freedom. So I started automating things 19 years ago and I didn't even realise at that stage that that's what I was doing. I was going through a process where I was earning only $6 to make these number plate bracket things. And it was taking me an hour and a half to make them. I got this task, and as a 12-year-old, now you know how old I am, as a 12-year-old, I was making these number plate brackets, an hour and a half for $6 so I was earning $4 an hour. Not very good money but more than every other 12-year-old that was out there. In hindsight and looking back, it was child labour, but I'd chosen to do it. So I guess it's okay. Now, these number plate brackets, I used Lego, and I don't know if you know Technic Lego and robotic Lego and stuff like that. I saved up some money and built a cit that allowed for me to automate the process of creating these number plate brackets. And as a 13-year-old I was creating 10 of them in an hour. So as a 13-year-old, I was earning $60 an hour from home in mum and dad's garage. So that's more than what most 20-year-olds were earning and a lot of people were earning, as a 13-year-old. When I got to 14 and nine months, I registered my first ABN number. I then had it as a registered business, so it was legit. I then from there started to have my friends come over and work for me and work with me and had the rate increased to $10.60 per number per bracket. That meant that I was getting $106 per hour of work that was being done and then I was outsourcing that to other people to do it. Now, at that stage, I was just trying to make the process as quick as possible. I didn't really look at what I was doing as automation, but it was absolutely automation, and that's just where my love for automation has grown from there. So who here would say they're automating things in their business? Yup. Cool. Awesome. And who here thinks that they could be doing more with their business in the way of automation that they're not? Everyone should have their hand up. There's always ways to improve. I've automated a lot of things right now, but we're talking... How I'm talking at the moment. This will come up and be on my podcast. It'll be edited down and go into my podcast, it'll be transcribed, and from the transcription that'll end up on my blog. That will then be posted through Facebook, Instagram. Not Instagram, sorry. Facebook. No, it will be Instagram. Facebook, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn. So that's in a doing all my marketing for me, it goes through a search engine optimizer that puts in all the heading tags and everything else, so then I've got content that's going up on the web, and I'm doing that all while talking to you guys. Because my time is valuable and all your time is valuable. How much would you say your time is worth per hour? I'm going to go around the room and I'm going to get Roger to grab your calculator out and you have to add all these up. Okay. Just quickly shoot. Audience member: Yeah, it varies depending on whether I'm selling a house or whether I'm doing a... Joshua: What would you like if you had to look at it, if you were sitting at home and you were told you needed to fix something or change a light bulb? Audience member: You know, when I've sold a house and I've sold it within a week, I've earned a lot for two hours' work. Joshua: But what would you say your time is worth? So if you were told that you're going to put a dollar figure on it, would you say your time is worth $5 an hour or $500 an hour? Audience member: Oh, it would just plummet. $80 an hour. Joshua: $80 an hour. Okay. Audience member: $250. Joshua: $250. Audience member: $450. Joshua: Okay. You adding this up real quick? Roger: Yeah, I'm adding up. Audience member: $250. $250. Joshua: $450. Audience member: $380. $550 at the moment. Joshua: Okay, cool. Audience member: $500. Joshua: $500? Yeah. Audience member: I have no idea. I'll go with $50. $110. $250. Roger: Let's just say, ballpark, we're up to about three grand or so. Joshua: Three grand or so. Okay. So roughly, and how many people do we have here? Five-ish, 20, 15? Okay, so we're talking about $150 an hour roughly, is what we have as a group accumulatively here. So every task that you do, whether it's at home mowing the lawn, or whether you're out and about shopping, you should be putting that number as whatever the number you've put in your head. So $5.50 is very competitive. That's going to be difficult. You need to have a dollar figure put on it, and not just for the time that you're spending, when you're earning money, but for the time that you're spending all the time. If you go and mow the lawn at home and it takes you two hours to mow the lawn, that's $10, $11 that you missed that on there. And with the different numbers we're looking at here, even as the average of $150 per a per hour, that's $300 to mow the lawn. If you can get someone else to mow the lawn for $50 and they're using better equipment, faster equipment, that's time that you can be spending on your business or with your family. That's more valuable time. So my dad's an engineer and one of the things that I saw him doing was fixing a DVD player, a $25 DVD player. It took him two hours to fix. Now, that is absolutely stupid, but he was learning and seeing how it all works. So if there's a learning experience then it's a different story. And that comes down to, again, automating what you're doing. If you enjoy learning, then do the task. But don't continue to do the task if there's better time that you should be spending your money, or time... better things that you should be spending a time and money on. Does that make sense? Cool. I know it sounds like I'm just saying the same sort of stuff in different ways, but that's cool. As long as we're all on the same page. So what would you say you'd like to be able to automate in your business? Everyone's sort of said that they had something that would like to automate or know that they're going to be doing something better. I'm going to go around the room and try and work out a way... or a business problem, maybe. Let's do it like a business problem. What's a business problem that you'd like to see removed? Roger, what would you- Roger: I like your automated postings and so forth. I've got some automated postings. I'd like to polish those up and improve them. [inaudible 00:10:57] exploited them to their full- Joshua: What ones are you using at the moment? Roger: What do I use? I use IFTTT. Joshua: Yep. That's really good. Roger: Yeah, that's what I use more than anything. And I use SocialPilot. Joshua: Cool. And how about you, Julian? Julian: Julian, yeah. Yeah, I'd like to be able to take a business card and just scan it and then have it send all the emails and introductions. Joshua: Do you have a business card? Julian: Yep. Joshua: Okay. So while I'm here... This is great. That's really, really good. Really good answer. So I'll send you an email while I'm doing this presentation. So I've just taken a photo, and I'll show you how to do that later. So yeah. Okay. And Sarah, would you like to automate? Sarah: Well, I just recently automated it. When I go do hair and makeup for weddings, I kind of don't really have time. So now I just pretty much put it in a drop box, somebody then takes it from there and they post it up for me and now it's done. I don't have to worry about that. As my business is very visual, people want to be seeing work all the time. That was a big thing. So that's been a good thing that I've just recently done, so yeah. Joshua: Cool. Audience member: So what we do do or what we want to do? Joshua: What would you like? What would you like to have automated? Or a business problem that you're trying to overcome? Audience member: I suppose for me it's making sure that my numbers are competitive with the rest of the market. So it would be really cool if I didn't have to go and check every time I needed to do a quote. Automating that sort of process of finding out what everybody else is charging, it would be great if I could do that with automation. Joshua: Is price a big deciding factor? Audience member: I think it is for people. Joshua: I know people look around a lot and you've got a lot of... like Vistaprint, very competitive. Not competitive probably in the quality of what you'd be doing versus what they're doing though. And so I strongly think everyone in business should not have price as a differentiator. You've got personalised service, localised service, fantastic face and you're able... Vistaprint have no face to their business. They just a cold business that are online and they're convenient and cheap, but that's not what- Audience member: It's finding the balance. Joshua: Absolutely. Yeah. And Willem? Willem: More of a social media presence. Joshua: Yep. Yep. Yep. So getting a better presence. Willem: I was able to farm that out to my wife. Joshua: Absolutely, causes less arguments. It comes up with blue screens of death when there's problems as opposed to arguments within the relationship. Audience member: Did you say you want to automate your wife? Joshua: Automate his wife! Do you have content at the moment that you could be putting up? Willem: Being part of a worldwide organisation, there's always something happening somewhere in the world. Joshua: Vetting your website with some of the videos and bits and pieces that go up and it looks good. So yeah. And Gary, how about yourself? Gary: I'd like to start a revolution to have Google shut down. I need young, smart fellows like you to be able to go and come into the industry and put decent competition against them and stop them from destroying small businesses. Joshua: Yeah. Well, I think between the big companies, Amazon, Facebook and Google, they're too big of a conglomerate. And Microsoft and Apple and everything else further from that. But the big three there that I already mentioned should be divided up and split up so that they're not owning the entities. I completely agree. I don't know what sort of militia we're going to have to put together to do to achieve this. Audience member: It looks like it might be happening in Europe. Joshua: Yeah? Yeah, I haven't haven't seen it, but... Yeah, it's a... Definitely. I agree with you. It's very difficult to do that the way... it's sort of like the devil. You have to just be with the devil. Now my rankings are going to go down for this social post. "What are you doing? You can't badmouth Google!" Audience member: That's the problem, everyone thinks like that. Joshua: Oh, you can. Audience member: If a lot of people started standing up to it... Joshua: It's just... So what sort of phone do you have? Audience member: Samsung. Joshua: Okay, so there's more than 200 touch points that Google gets from what you do every day through that phone. There's an experiment they did where they removed Google and Amazon from their life. They were unable to log into any of the other services such as Dropbox from the different ways and methods they using to proof it was a human or wasn't a human. They weren't able to use any Google maps. They weren't able to use anything else, so they started using Waze and then Waze was working but it cost a lot of money. A lot of the services that we use and take for granted are backed by Google, even if it's not the systems that we're using directly. And the problem is... Because they are selling our information off. That's how they're making money. Facebook makes $10 a month off of the data that we give to them. If we weren't marketed through anything on Facebook and the information wasn't sold, it would cost us $10 a month to use Facebook, and no one would use it because it wouldn't be worth it. So it's a balance. I think, yeah, the system should be changed, 100%. People should be very aware of how much data is actually being thrown around there about you. And Valerie? Valerie: I'm helping people to understand that once some data is taken, it should then be what a software industry is built on, plus it's growing more on bugging people's Bank statements through their systems. But it's not a huge buy-in to that. So I think in terms of my own business automating, I guess my process is automating that hasn't been done. Audience member: For me, it would be networks. Documents sending and receiving. Joshua: It's big thing that annoys me in your industry, how much paper goes everywhere. And also, has anyone heard statement, "Don't marry me on the first date"? Has anyone heard that? You have people that jump in and they go, "Oh, hi, yes, I'm Josh Litt and I'd love to do some work with you." And just really, really selling themselves without building the relationship. I've dealt with a broker in the past and they... It was like, I said, "Oh, can you help me out? I'm a small business owner, and that that makes things of question mark on complication." And they sent me an eight-page thing I had to fill out. I'm like, "Ah, I'm not going to go with you." Joshua: Well, have you seen some of the open banking stuff that's coming in in the start of July? Audience member: Open banking? Joshua: Open banking, so the bank statements and a lot of the information can be fed through APIs to different systems. Yeah. This bank statements, I think, dot com, or something like that, allows you to... that's really good for your industry. Audience member: Probably a structured onboarding process video and having it easily accessible. Can you sign it off as well? Joshua: Yep. Cool. Cool. Joshua: Bob? Bob: Probably the process of intakes, where the lawyers do a lot of writing. That can be digitised and then put back into our lead CRM system, development management system, so still when the client comes back, they don't have to redo it, it's actually from hand to digitised to CRM. Or it could be onboarding for a normal conversation as well. I've started a little bit, but I think it's culture change more than anything. I've looked at people with a Microsoft tablet. Carrie: We're in a relationship with business, so I think we've just got to be a little bit careful. We've automated our, what? We've got electronic work papers. The ITO is making us automate things because things come through electronically now, so we're trying not to have the whole paper thing, etc. But what everyone else said, I guess, we could do with some work on our CRM. Because it's rubbish in rubbish out with a lot of this. Joshua: Absolutely. Audience member: It's a little bit awkward in our business because a lot of those people who are just looking for insurance, they don't want to fill in forms. But in terms of having a social media presence, that's probably what I'm interested in. I would be firstly automating my data collection, so I'm still handwriting our analysis. It would be great to do it online so I'm not wasting paper. And the other thing that I want to automate ,gathering reviews. So when we've finished the process, we have a system where an email or an SMS, whatever, goes out with the link seeking reviews. Joshua: Cool. Cool. Awesome. I'm going to try and go around the room really quickly to give everyone a quick answer as to how to automate this stuff a bit better. Joshua: Okay. So your business, if you want to have your posts automated a bit better, you do know what RSS feeds are? Roger: Yeah, I know RSS feeds. Joshua: Being able to collaborate and join RSS feeds together. So what they do is that if you do updates on things on your website or updates anywhere, you can have it so that update is pulled and pushed to any other location that you want around the web on different times and different schedules and you can create different ways that it all works. And using RSS feeds in Sendible is what we use, and we found Sendible's fantastic. It integrates into most things. Roger: I haven't looked at Sendible. Joshua: Oh, it's fantastic. It's great. I've managed a couple of businesses through it. And yeah, it's by far the best one that I've seen out there. Not the cheapest but the best. Yeah. And you'd have to have some automation to be able to sell the websites for the price that you're selling them, because there is no money to be made in that otherwise. Yeah. So with your onboarding process, everyone sort of said something here and everyone's sort of... The answers they've got, it's not like there's a question mark for most of them. A lot of the things that you want to do are able to be done. It's just a time thing to be able to do them for most people, I'd imagine. Yeah? So for me, one of the biggest things that I did in my business was automating every single task that I did and documenting every task that I did and then finding something to do everything that I did so I could go traveling. And I went over to America for nearly three months last year and didn't have to touch a computer, didn't have to touch anything to do with the business, which was awesome. So that was my big a-ha, champagne moment in automation, being able to really step away from the business. Because a lot of the time we put ourselves into these businesses that we buy and we sometimes don't really buy into a business. We buy into a job. We've bought into our position in business. And that isn't a good position to be in because most of it's buying for more money or more freedom. And a lot of the time you end up with less of both. And the only real way out of that is by automating things. And automation isn't something you need to be choosing, do I do or don't I do it? It's, if you don't do it, you will be left behind. Because if you didn't have a microwave and you didn't have an oven now, it'd be very difficult to cook your food on a fire out in the backyard. And that's just- Audience member: No, we had three years without an oven. Joshua: You did? Three years without an oven? Did you have a dishwasher? Audience member: Yeah, my son. Joshua: See, see, you've got automation, that's automation. Audience member: Yeah, you'd want to sit and think. Joshua: So it's not monitored automation. So you need to always just be looking at ways to automate your business. We were contacted by a government agency in what we've been doing with some of the different things we've been putting around the web, and they've asked us to help businesses out, to automate their businesses. And they've actually reduced down the rate of what we charge out to $40 an hour to be able to help businesses, small businesses automate their processes. So if there's anything you ever see that needs to be automated at that sort of price, yeah, there's no reason why you shouldn't be getting someone in to at least look over your systems and see what needs to be automated. The great news is everyone already knows something that needs to be automated. Most of the time with fresh eyes and another perspective, you'll find that there's always more and more that can be automated. It's always great to get someone to come into your business and see how your process is working and how everything is going together. Because as theold quote goes, with the NASA spending millions of dollars to develop a pen that works in space and the Russians used a pencil. So it's a just a perspective thing. that didn't actually happen, but it's still a fun quote. So yeah, so that's, I guess, the main thing is make sure you're automating everything in business. Very few people here brought up automation, automating their marketing, only like a couple of people. And that is a big thing because you want to make sure your name is out there. If your business has no voice, your customers won't have any ears to hear it, so you need to be out there and be present in one way or another. Most businesses here are business-to-business businesses, I think, most of them. There's a few business-to-consumer businesses, but generally speaking, we all have a skill set that we can bring to the table to help each other's businesses out. Even if we're just going in, individually reviewing how things are working and how things could be better. With your systems to be able to see what your competitors are doing. you can do things such as what's called web scraping and you can have it so that all of your competitors and all their prices are automatically update in a spreadsheet or a dashboard that you could see each day or each month, however often you wanted to do that, and then you can use tools such as Proposify, which would allow for you to go in and see how you can go about change... sorry, you can use Proposify to be able to quote to your customers really quickly and easily in a templated way and know the prices that they could be seeing from any of the competitors around the place, and know the pain points and the reasons why you'd want to push away. I've worked with Sarah in the past and one of her concerns was there was other people out there that were cheaper in price. And I said, "Yeah, but they're not going to be anywhere near as good as what you're doing and how you're doing it." But we put a cheaper price up on the website and then just made conditions that it had to be a certain amount of people and it only included the same things that the other people included. A lot of the time, if people are looking to things such as Vistaprint, they're not going to necessarily go, "Is the stock as thick? Is it good glaze?" Or whatever the situation is, they're going to just go, "Oh, the cards are cheap. And then you can sort of just pivot that and you say, "Well, is that the image that you want to have from a business front? Do you want to have an image of a cheap business? Do you want to have these cheap cards"? Doesn't really sound very good. Your first impression's a crappy card, so that's where you can then sort of change the argument. But have the pricing on your website as competitive as Vistaprint so you're not backing people away. But you don't know if they are or not backing away from that without having some data to really sink into and work that out, which is what we love. We love building businesses up with lots and lots of data so that you're able to make informed, decisive decisions. You can work out if your staff force is efficient, if your systems are efficient and if things are as automated as they should be. Automation doesn't remove jobs. Automation brings health and life back into your business because the jobs that people are doing aren't repetitious. They are fun loving jobs. Automating your wife is a fantastic idea. Automated wife, happy life. Audience member: They have special shops for that. Joshua: And they can fit in your pocket. Sendible would be great to help automate all your social media marketing though. Sendible, the same thing I was talking to Roger about, which I can talk to you more about. It's a fantastic tool. It lets you see everything, all the comments and everything in one spot for all of your customers so you can just respond to everyone in one location. You can post everything out, you can make sure it only posts during certain hours. And set there so that it posts out videos and everything else. We've got our marketing down pat, so in one hour, one hour a week, I'm able to create two youtube videos, three podcasts, five blogs, and we've been doing that one hour a week for the last six months and we have over 160,000 written words that have all been SEO optimised and put onto our website. Which has increased our traffic for a B to B website, which we don't pay for any paid advertisement on our website. We get about 3,000, 4,000 unique visitors a month, so that's pretty good for a B to B business where we're not selling anything on the website whatsoever. There's no reason for them to come there except for see our services and see the blogs that we've been writing. So my time's up by a minute more than what I should have been talking, but plus extra and extra. But has everyone enjoyed this? It's been good? We've learned a bit? I could talk for hours and hours, but if you want to hear more, definitely if you've got my card, let me know. As I said, because the government rate is pretty, pretty amazing. We're pretty happy that I got into that. Audience member: The one big obstacle everyone's trying to overcome with all these message bots and things is automating the sincere personal touch. Joshua: You'd never automate that. I'm here. I can't automate what I'm doing right now because the feeling and the heart that I have for what I do in my business can't be seen through an automated message. So you can't automate the personal touch, but you can automate everything else around it. Audience member: They try. Joshua: Yeah. Audience member: You can't automate passion. Joshua: You can't automate passion. What you can do... Audience member: You could give them a microwave once started. My mother would think this is witchcraft. Joshua: It is. Audience member: Oh, it is, that's right. Joshua: Getting back to Google, it is. So you can't automate the passion and drive you have as a person, but you can remove that requirement. Say Google, the face of Google, the face of Amazon, the face... none of these big companies have a face. Apple had a face but then PC killed him. Do you get it? Yeah. It's a terrible joke. Anyway, you can't really automate that passion, but what you can do is create a lot of content around it so you can build a relationship beforehand, having dozens of videos and lots of social posts that sort of show that same approach. So I've got a comical approach to the way that I approached people, and showing that and having that means that you can build 80% of the relationship up and then the other 20% can be nurtured in person. I have seen some of the stuff they do around the reading, the psychology on how people talk. If people are talking in feeling words of people talking and doing or hearing words, you say, "How do you feel about that?" And it can analyse with their words and then reword whatever you've written to then post that back to them in a way that resonates more strongly with them. So you can do some things like that, but I still think we're all operating a small business. We need to be able to automate, but we need to also keep that personal touch. You don't want to remove that. It's one of the best things you've got in small business. That's what Vistaprint don't have!

— Wearing any gold? Touch it!.. Any clue? No, not at that time, but now he gets it. Then, those times, still a kid, what could he be wearing of gold?.. Nothing of course… His grandma would touch it… She could touch her necklace… She saved them. She fed them, she brought money, food, and, what’s most important, love and happiness. He realizes, after her death, he lost that most important thing – the fun, the strength, the humor, the joy… She was grandma, – everyone called her Mamida – as she was the sister of his Mum’s father… Yeah… So, for her mother, she was Mamida – but then she was Mamida for everyone – for him especially!.. — My favorite holidays? – New Years… Why?.. Because of Mamida – she made those days… He feels her now… He always felt her… Mum would say also – to touch the gold… Mamida too. Now he understands that it’s all about the crescent growing – waxing – and so the promise of gold, growing, wealth increase… Or often, that’s mixed with just – wish… Make a wish… Look at the crescent… His Mum is now against looking at it – she also believes not to look at full moon is an advice worth paying attention… Perhaps, Mum is right. We have too much of an energy coming from the moon even without staring at it. So what about the crescent? What about Mamida?.. It all depends, if there are the initial pages of those associations and reminiscences, or are there the last?.. No one knows… Hope, these are just the beginning, – so much to remember, he thinks. He would touch his gold necklace and cross now, but he left it at his first apartment. He left it and it’s over a month he’s not been there. He’s with parents, at the second apartment – he’s on the couch, here, he hate’s to sleep on… The power of wishes and thoughts are really huge and perhaps that’s why he can’t consider this place as home – he bought, planned and though of it as his office – workplace… Could stay, yes… But not home… Now it’s home… He can’t accept… Just as his rational mind, or rather his rational side of mind – telling him not to believe in the crescent and touching the gold or making a wish… Because, first of all, how do you know if the moon is about to disappear or to grow?.. It’s identical and one needs to have tracked it to know for sure… Crescent… New moon… Actually, the form of the moon he would imagine and dream, it was always the crescent… Being born? Dying? Regardless, yet another manifestation of the cycle… Somehow the crescent seemed more homey, he realized, then the full moon… Perhaps because there’s the shade from earth… Yes, homey, like Mamida, like New Year, like Family… Warmer… Hello, moon!.. Thank you for joining me in this journey towards emotional healing, finding oneself amd remembering what makes us happy. The topics covered in these podcast episodes are: #Emotional Healing #Finding Yourself #Following your wings #Happiness is a Choice #Meditating #Peace of Mind #Psychological Journey #Reminiscences #Thinking Aloud #Thoughts #Leap of Faith #Short Stories #Short Story Series #Blogging Everyday #Thinking Along Writing #Finding inner self #Therapy #Art Therapy #Psycho flow #Read at night #What to believe in #Why to live #What makes life beautiful #Imagination #Creativity #Inspiration #Life is a story #Faith #Uncensored #Symbols #Short stories --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/zack-followingz/message

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Marion, for people that go to Ireland, what's one place they really should visit?Marion: Well, one of my favorite spots is called the Cliffs of Moher.Todd: The Cliffs of Moher.Marion: Yeah, and that's on the West Coast. It's quite near Galway, so it's a little bit to the south of Galway, I think.Todd: OK, so it's near Galway.Marion: Yeah.Todd: OK.Marion: That's a city on the West Coast of Ireland.Todd: What is this place, the Cliffs of Moher?Marion: The Cliffs of Moher are, as far as I know, are the tallest cliffs in Europe.Todd: Really, the tallest?Marion: Yeah. I'm pretty sure. Definitely the tallest cliffs in Ireland, but I'm quite sure that we have that distinction, that they're actually the tallest cliffs in the whole of Europe.Todd: Wow. That's pretty cool. (Yeah) So when you go to these cliffs, what can you do? Can you climb down them, or?Marion: No, you can't. (What) I think if you tried, you might end up in the water and you may never get up again.Todd: You serious?Marion: Yeah, it's quite scary. When I went there for the first time, I was quite young, and I went with my mother and brother and uncle, and I remember my mother was holding my hand, and my brother, who was younger than me, was, of course, braver than I was, so he was going right up the edge, and looking over and leaning out and I was really, really scared because, at that time, there was no barrier to keep you from falling in, so yeah, really, really scary.Todd: I bet. So when you go to the Cliffs of Moher is it really windy, does it rain a lot?Marion: Yeah, it's quite windy because you're right on the edge of Europe, basically you're facing the Atlantic ocean, which can get quite turbulent, there so you can see the waves crashing up against the cliffs. That's if you lean over of course. There's a flat area of rock where many tourists kind of lie on their stomachs and inch their way up to the edge and then they look over, but I was too scared when I went. I couldn't do it. I thought for sure I'd fall over and die.Todd: So assuming that someone goes to Ireland and they go to Dublin, they fly into Dublin, how will they get to the Cliffs of Moher?Marion: Um, pretty easily. Actually, from Dublin you have the choice of going either by train, directly across to Galway, then from Galway, you would need to take a bus, so you could go from Dublin to Galway by bus as well, but the train is probably more comfortable and then it would be a shortish bus ride to the Cliffs of Moher, but obviously in Ireland, you're best bet is really to hire a car if you can.Todd: OK. Well, sounds like a good place to go. Thanks, Marion.Marion: No problem.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Nitiya: OK, so something about fun, actually what kind of movies do you like?Todd: Um, well, let's see, I like. I love comedy movies, and for me the most important thing about a movie is, does it have good dialog, does it have good writing, so I don't care about special effects and stuff like that. It just doesn't interest me, and actually, I don't like big Hollywood movies (OK) I think they're terrible.Nitiya: Terrible!Todd: Yeah. (OK) What kind of movies do you like?Nitiya: I guess a lot of adventures, like the movie like "Star Gate" and "The Beach" and, and "The Beach" was not good but, I like something which is so different, something which is about the universe, or something which is about rockets and stuff like that.Todd: So you like movies that require... (detective movies also)... and what?Nitiya: Detective.Todd: Oh, detective movies. (Yeah) So you like movies that require imagination?Nitiya: Exactly.Todd: Now, since we're talking about movies, India has a very big movie industry, Bollywood, (Yeah) do you like the Bollywood movies?Nitiya: It's great. (Yeah) Awesome. Yeah. I guess a lot of people in the whole world like it a lot.Todd: Bollywood, they always have so many people, like the thing is, where do they get all those actors?Nitiya: Lots of actors, so much drama, and I guess a lot of music and dancing and it's just so different from Hollywood movies, so I guess for the reality, I prefer the Hollywood movie and if you just want to have some fun, it would be Bollywood movies.Todd: So, how often would you watch Bollywood and how often do you watch English?Nitiya: Whatever I get.Todd: whatever you get.Nitiya: I just love movies. I'm crazy behind movies.Todd: You're addicted to movies?Nitiya: Very much.Todd: OK, you know in the states when you go to the movies, it's always coke, popcorn, hot dog. When you go to movies in India, what's the food that you eat?Nitiya: Ok, coke is always there.Todd: Right.Nitiya: And yeah, something like chips or potato chips or anything you get in your hands. Basically, I don't like getting disturbed when I'm watching a movie. I'm a person who likes watching a movie very quietly. I don't like watching with friends. I mean, I prefer going who also like watching movies quietly. I mean there are some people in the world, they sit for the movie and they go, oh, this is going to happen next and things like that. I get so irritated. Let me watch it, concentrately.Todd: Right, I hate that.Nitiya: I really want to do it quietly, peacefully. I just want to watch the movie. Not talk to the person sitting behind me.Todd: Ah, I totally agree. And I want to see the beginning, and I want to see the end.Nitiya: Exactly.Todd: And no interruptionsNitiya: Once I begin I really want to go till the end. (Right) I can't stop it in the middle and say, "Oh, oh."Todd: Yeah, which do you prefer, watching it at the cinema, or on DVD at home?Nitiya: At home.Todd: At home. So nobody bothers you?Nitiya: Yep.Todd: Right. Yeah, same thing. OK, thanks, Natiya.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Rina, you were saying Lebanon, or Beirut, has really good night clubs. (Mm-hm) Ah, what's a really cool night club in Beirut?Rina: My favorite night club was rated 5th in Maxim magazine, and it's called B. O. 18, and what it used to be was a Palestinian burial ground and,Todd: Wait a minute! (Yeah) It, there's no longer dead people there?Rina: No, no, no. It used to be. (OK) Just during the civil war, cause there was a 17 year war, and what it is, you walk up, you don't see anything, it's just a big open space, but you see these, like, almost like subway stairs going down, and you go down these stairs and the theme inside this place is death, and it's like a big coffin, so you have red velvet walls and all the tables are little coffins with Palestinian soldier pictures on it and single rows and it's just a really good, it's a really neat club. And I went to a lot of theme clubs, too, I went to one that's called The Music Hall and it's like just, like a big theater, it was just amazing.Todd: So, what's The Music Hall like?Rina: Um, well they had that night I went, they had five different groups: One American group, one Spanish, one Lebanese, and they all just, it's like a theater, like scene one, scene two, and each scene would be a different music, genre like, you know.Todd: That's pretty cool.Rina: Yeah, it was cool.Todd: So, at these night clubs, how do people dress? What's the fashion?Rina: Um, Lebanese girls, and people that were like Lebanese girls, they're very trend conscious. Oh, yeah. Like if it's in a magazine, they're wearing it type thing. They look down on anybody, that doesn't.Todd: Ah, so.Rina: Yeah, and it's all like, done up like they went to the salon that day to go out sort of thing.Todd: Wow! (Yeah) So we're talking, like the skimpy dressed that they have?Rina: Everything. Oh, yeah.Todd: Your kidding. What do the guys dress like?Rina: Ah, the guys are, they dress prettier than some of the girls.Todd: No kidding.Rina: Yeah, the guys dress really well, but very, just as I said, very trend conscious. Everybody's very image, image conscious. It's really a lot like Japan in that way.Todd: Mm, oh cool. Thanks.

"Election 2020" is upon us! Yeah? So what? Not my election but an awful lot of Native people will get sucked in and, let's be honest, their system impacts us. So what are we to do? Well, first of all, let's not fall for these clowns. They are all pimping themselves out and not even to us. Let's hit them with some shots before they get too big to fail.

There’s a Difference Between School and Real Life: This week on Track Changes, Paul and Rich sit down with Allan Chochinov, chair of the MFA in Products of Design program at the School of Visual Arts and founder of design network Core77. We talk about who is really teachable, building good design from huge problems, the vast applications of "design thinking", and how much time is wasted on meetings. Allan shares two incredible medical UX-design moments that he's witnessed— building an at home diagnostic tool for HIV testing and creating a quick-attach prosthetic limb. Both of these scenarious required empathy towards consumer experiences and pragmatism. These small design gestures can have a big impact.   Paul Ford You’re a— you’re a sensitive, in touch person. Rich Ziade [Crosstalk] Are you in your fifties, Allan? Allan Chochinov I am, yeah. PF It’s a little— RZ You look great! PF [Crosstalk] When you realize . . . AC I’m gonna be 57 soon. PF Yeah. RZ What?!? PF I know— it’s [snickers] we’ve had this conversation. RZ Oh he’s had LSD— PF Look at the beautiful hair— AC My mom’s— [inaudible over crosstalk] PF Yeah, some grey. Some grey. RZ I— I can’t see his face right now but the forehead is tremendous. PF No, no. Alan just won a lottery on this front. RZ Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Are we recording? PF We are. We’re talking about— RZ Steph, feel free to put this stuff in [laughter]. PF [Chuckling] We’re talking about how handsome Allan is [voices fade out, music fades in, plays alone for 18 seconds, ramps down]. Allan Chochinov, a key person in New York City tech and design for a long, long time. Let’s talk about that in a minute but the first thing to talk about, really, is you run a program at the school of visual arts. [0:56] AC Yup. PF What is the name of that program? AC Uh [music fades out] the name is MFA in Products of Design. PF Ok. That— [yeah] ok. Let’s break that down a little bit [laughs]. AC We should. We intended for it to be uh future proof and [uh huh] it actually came true because— well, I mean the idea was that everything is a product of design [mm hmm]. So each and every kind of design: uh graphic design; industrial design; service design; interaction design, social innovation design; tons of business design— PF So a new design— like, you know, suddenly there’s a new kind of way— AC Well, yeah, radically, you know, multidisciplinary or generalist anyway [ok] but what’s interesting is people see the word product design they think that we’re an industrial design program and we do teach industrial design— PF Like make a teapot kind [yeah] of thing, yeah. AC But the fortunate thing is that, I guess about four or five years ago interaction designers kind of like stole the term product design from [snickers] industrial designers— PF Actually that’s— boy, we did, didn’t we? AC Which is— it’s either like funny or heartbreaking depending on which side you’re on. PF No, it’s funny for us. Yeah. We’re— we’re enjoyin’ it. AC So many of my colleagues spent their whole lives trying to, you know, help people understand what an industrial designer was, you know you would— you would say well, “We’re— we design product.” [Oh!] Product design. That was easier. Now it’s just like, “Oh, what platform? Facebook?” PF [Exhales hard] We destroyed everything with that— RZ “We” is a lot— PF No. But you know how many times have we said “product design”? RZ We jumped on it. We did jump on it. [2:17] PF Yeah. AC You know? Many people have said everything is interaction design, everything experience design. So— PF It’s true. AC Alright. PF Alright, so tell us a little bit— this program, it’s a graduate program? AC Yup. PF And it has how many students— AC There’s about 18 students a year. Uh it’s single track; every student takes every course, uh no grades which is really helpful uh cuz we want maximum risk and, you know, it’s point of departure is that uh and, you know, we’re really upfront about this that like everything’s broken. And so that everything can be uh reimagined. We’re I wouldn’t say cynical about best practices but we’re certainly interested in doing things in a way that we haven’t gotten good at doing them. PF You gave me a piece of advice once um [uh oh] um that— No. It was very, very valuable. It was just that there’s a real difference between life and school. AC Yeah. PF And that when you’re in school and you’re learning that’s not practicing for the real world, exactly, it’s not like, “Here: learn these incredibly necessary skills for tomorrow,” some of that has to be there but for the most part it’s like, “Let’s break things; let’s figure it out. I want you to be thinkers.” AC Yeah. I— I’m still really sympathetic with that um I think you need, you know, especially grad school, it’s just a two-year program, and, you know, they’re grownups, they’re people who chose to come back to school so there’s a strange— like when I’m meeting with potential students or prospective students and, you know, they have this idea of this place where they wanna be after grad school [right]. So they’re trying to find either the right grad school to get them from where they are now to this vision of the future or whether grad school at all is the right sort of medium to get them from here to there. Uh but the problem is that grad school’s job is to like mix you up, in that, you know, couple years between where you are and where you wanna be and, in fact, even within the first, you know, two months, where you thought you wanted to be like probably won’t look very interesting anymore [sure]. And also— you’re gonna— grad school’s other job is to show you all these other potential futures that you didn’t even know existed, many of which, as you know, don’t even yet exist. [4:16] PF What are some of the things they do in this remarkable journey? AC You know, we have a— a real mix between very purposeful, very social projects and very fanciful and projects around— we actually have a course called Design Delight. PF Ok. AC Um you know a couple projects that stick out, Smruti Adya’s one of the projects she did— she was doing a project around prosthetics [mm hmm] uh and limb loss and limb difference and um a lot of these theses they can really turn on one sentence, like one of their subject matter experts or one of their, you know, user interviews will say something that will change everything. And so she was interviewing um a woman who had lost her leg and she said, “You know, late at night um when I have to go to the bathroom, uh sometimes I crawl to the bathroom. [Oof] Because it’s just— yeah. Because it’s just so onerous um—” PF “I don’t wanna put my legs on—” Yeah sure. AC And you know, that’s, you know, it really made an impact on Smruti and I think in like one or two days she just banged out this device, it’s actually— it’s on the website, called Swift and it’s essentially just a white tube that can expand a little bit and you would either print it out at Shapeways— you could, you know, measure and— and order a size or maybe there would be several sizes at— at Amazon and it’s just like this opportunistic limb that you can slip on, not have to crawl to the bathroom and then return to bed. So, those kinds of products are amazing to me because there’s not a— there’s a— it’s like an incredible lots for incredible little [right] um and I just love the idea of the power of design where you could make a small gesture and get an extraordinary impact from it um— RZ Usually I— I think what’s— AC And the visuals are very convincing. I mean like you— you should see the work. RZ I mean oft— oftentimes that— when the design or the design arm of some big company, it’s usually driven by markets, right? [Mm hmm] Like it’s time for us to have little teeny Bluetooth headphones because Apple came out with little teeny ones [yup]. PF Right. [6:19] RZ So go do those, right? And that’s not driven by fundamentally a problem. Of course, everyone would like smaller headphones but really [yeah] the catalyst prove to be competition and [trails off as Paul comes in] — PF Well and, “I’m gonna— I’m gonna put my mark on it.” RZ You know and, “I’m gonna put my— we gotta—” AC [Crosstalk] Oh for sure. RZ “— have ‘em.” PF Yeah. “Ours will be purple.” RZ Yeah. Exactly which is— and— [stammers] that sits in such stark contrast to what you just described, right? Which is— AC It does. I mean, you know, one of common denominators, which I actually don’t talk and think much about but for this moment I will, is beauty. I mean this thing— this thing’s beautiful uh and so there’s a whole spectrum of we could say “purposefulness” um in design, everything from, you know, what industrial designers would call like “skin jobs” like, you know, very styling, take a thing and just, you know, shroud it in something beautiful or really rethinking the problem. Some of the stuff that you do in reframing, let’s say you have a client comes to you and they think that they want something and, you know, that’s good enough to start but likely that’s not what you’re gonna end up doing and the problem finding uh the scoping, the reframing of the whole engagement is gonna be the most important part up front. That’s no less true for any kind of design in my opinion including uh product design, just product design’s really [chuckles] hard. PF Right. AC You know: materials; technology; labor practices; supply chain. It’s just endless. PF We find this all the time. Like nothing that— people walk in the door and are ready to get that contract moving [yeah] and it’s we don’t want them to. RZ Well, actually, it’s— it’s counterintuitive, right? We actually get ‘em— we wanna slow down for a sec. AC Yeah, you wanna add some friction which they don’t wanna— [7:49] PF No! Cuz especially if they’re ready to go, it feels terrible— RZ And also we wanna— we also wanna close the business. [Yeah] So it’s a little weird for us too but you also don’t wanna end up— end up down a path where it’s like you’re doing a thing that a) is untenable; or isn’t gonna make a lot of sense down the road. PF You know what I’ve learned though is that everybody knows, like you just— you don’t wanna blow up that— that moment of fantasy is really important where your idea is absolutely transformational. Because the process whereby you actually start to go, “I’ve had a few of these ideas,” and then you start to sort of see them get poked at by reality as you walk around with them and then you figure out what you’re really in the business for, why are you doing this? You know? What change could you affect? Because kind of any— especially with technology, any technology idea you come up with: a smarter watch; a better hat. It’s doesn’t matter. Is going to be utterly world transformational and worth a trillion dollars. AC It’s everything is— and everything is a platform. PF That’s right. AC Even if it’s not like unless you look at it at the platform level, you’re not looking at it. The systems mapping, I think, is the most valuable thing that the students do. Infinity mapping; system mapping [how do they— what’s]; user journey mapping— PF What do those look like? Just— AC The most basic one, and probably the funnest one is a mindmap where you’ll put let’s say the topic in the middle of a piece of paper and you’ll draw a circle around it; and then you’ll have these lines that radiate out like spokes on a wheel; and they’ll radiate out to other circles, the things that are related. So maybe— like my background is in medical design, so it might radiate out to— well, what we’re talking about, industrial design, let’s say ergonomics. And then it could radiate out to regulatory, and then it could radiate out to money. Uh and very close to that is gonna be insurance and then payers and payees will be around insurance bubble and then you start making smaller bicycle spoke wheels around each of the wheels, and all of a sudden you have this map on the wall. And then it’s a pretty quick trip to do what we would call a systems map after that which is— RZ [Crosstalk] Well, ok— AC— where you would start to organize this a little bit, it’s not just a big like blah on the wall. And when you show that to a client or to really anybody, it is likely the first time they’ve ever seen what they do, and it is often just, you know, they’re jaw drops. Because nobody ever showed them a picture— [10:00] RZ [Crosstalk] They finally zoomed out [yeah] and took a bird’s eye view. PF Well, your own— your own process is a mystery, right? Like who knows your own process? AC Absolutely. Same with students like they’re the worst— they’re the worst at seeing what they do or just a little edit that will turn something from good to like, you know, great [sure]. I mean you find with— with your clients, right? That you have to do that in the beginning or you’re— you know, you’re digging a hole that you’re gonna be in, sometimes when I say to my student’s, you know, when they’re like, “How should we write our thesis books?” I’m like, “Well, you know, imagine reading them.” [Laughs] [Right, right] Write them— write them as if you would actually have to read them and they’re like, “Oh. Ok.” PF So students come in, they wanna make things, they wanna do things, design things, what are they— what are they like when they come out after two years? AC You know there’s certainly converse— I wanna say that they’re multilingual [ok]. That’s— that’s ambitious but there’s certainly converse and they understand how, you know, VCs talk and what they worry about; they’re gonna understand how to pitch to foundations; they’re gonna understand UX, UI, lots of principles around graphic design and typography hierarchy. Just like all of it. It’s— it’s ambitious. The thing that we do is we have a lot of short courses instead of [huh] — we almost— we have almost no 15 week courses left. I believe that people can learn things faster than most people think that they can [mm hmm]. Also, graduate students worry, like they’re old enough to know, I— I’ve written about this, they’re old enough to know that they’re uh decisions have consequences so they don’t wanna negative consequences so they don’t wanna decide anything. So they read another book. And so when you have a project that is, you know, 15 weeks long, you know, they’ll start and then by week three or four like it’ll get hard. [Sure] You know, cuz like anything worth working on gets hard. And then they’re like, “Well, maybe I should try this other idea?” So then they go to their other idea and then three or four weeks later, that gets hard too cuz anything [snickers] worth on gets hard. And they’re like, “Well, you know, now I’m getting worried. Lemme go back to my first idea,” and then it’s just like this desperate rush to the finish [right]. I’m sure it’s the same— same in business, right? With a seven week course, you begin and then you middle and then you end, you’re ending after like class two or three um and you have to commit to idea— to an idea and just never, never give up. Like [mm hmm] no changing your idea. Of course it will change and evolve but no like starting like, “Oh well now I’m gonna do something around optics.” So we design out those weeks of anxiety where students will typically have like an [snickers] existential crisis but the best part is if we make a course from 15 weeks to seven weeks, we have a new seven weeks now that we can create a new course around [mm hmm] um and because we’re in New York and because a lot of the classes are in the evening, you know, I can get people to say yes to teaching who could normally never say yes to teaching like 15, you know, afternoons. But you know like Paola Antonelli can give us, you know, five evenings a year, right? Um— [12:45] PF That’s right. She’s the Exec Director of MoMA, right? AC She’s at MoMA, yeah. PF Yeah. AC Uh she’s actually on sabbatical this year but and also like she can kill it in five weeks, you know? PF Sure! Where do they go when they graduate? AC I thought that it was gonna be just entrepreneurship city [mm hmm]. You know? It was so in the air, like I always conceived of it as a leadership program but I did have an idea that there would be more businesses launched out of it [mm hmm] and I think that I was a little naive— I’m Canadian. Still Canadian. I’ve been here for 30— 32 years. PF [Laughs] It’s never gonna leave you. AC Ugh. I wanted to vote. I mean, you know, it was the— PF Yeah. RZ Oh you’re still a Canadian citizen. AC Yeah, I am. RZ But residing here, in the US. AC Yeah, so I underestimated just the— the financial burden of this thing. I mean— RZ I was about to make a joke— AC— you know, grad school is so expensive. RZ— you just left ‘em with a debt [laughs]. PF Yeah. AC Yeah, I know and they worry about that. [13:31] PF “You owe me 80,000 dollars and start a company— go start a company.” Yeah. RZ “Good luck with your startup.” AC And, you know, add— add to that the cost of living and eating and they’re not earning money, right? Like they don’t have jobs [sure] while they’re in school. So it’s a— the opportunity cost is immense, in any event— So they get the jobs at IDEO and Frog and SYP and Johnson & Johnson, like lots of really great companies. And then medium and small sized consultancies as well, and it’s really only in the last couple of years that the students are— are leaving those, you know, probably their second jobs— PF Right. AC— and starting out on their own. The other thing that I knew but I— I hadn’t internalized is that like nobody stays anywhere more than 18 months. So I can— I can calm some students when they’re so worried about like, you know, picking the right first job kind of thing and I’m like, “You know, don’t worry about it so much.” PF “You’re gonna leave.” AC “You’re— you’re gonna leave anyway.” PF “In a year and six months.” AC And this used to be more of like an advertising agency model [mm hmm], you know, you’d raise your salary by leaving every 16 or 18 months or whatever the convention but, you know, creative people are really restless. Um [yeah] and they want new challenges and, you know, school in a way makes that worse because it spoils them with all these fascinating things to do like every day of the week, every week of the two years, and then they get somewhere and, you know [well and also you’ve just given them—] it’s not inventions time every day. PF You’ve given them the leaders of thinking in New York City around the field as their teachers, advisors, and friends. AC Yeah. RZ WHo— whose doing great work right now? [14:56] AC Well, actually, I mean back to one of my students, Souvik Paul, he’s actually turning his thesis into a commercial product, it’s called Cathbuddy. It was called Clean Cath. Two weeks before he came to the grad program, a friend of his was in a car accident and became paralyzed, so sort of back on paralysis. And he knew that for his thesis he wanted to— to do work around, you know, life in a wheelchair, but one of the things that he discovered is that there is a budget for how many disposable catheters you get a month if you are, you know, cathing and that it’s usually not enough, what insurance will pay for, and that people are sterilizing their own disposable catheters and reusing them. This is just like pretty specific design challenge. And they’re using like, you know, Clorox and microwaves and I mean it’s just [Paul sighs] — it’s a disaster out there [yeah], right? And so the risk for infection— RZ Wow. AC Yeah. It’s like — it’s a— it’s a big deal. So he came up with this device that would use a UV sterilization and you would put your used catheters into this device and it would sterilize them and then you could use them again. And he had really kept this dream alive since he’s graduated and worked so it’s gonna— PF That’s great. AC— it’s gonna be a real product. So like— RZ It’s not out yet. AC It’s not out but it’s like you think like that’s really like almost arcane. Right? It’s like a really, really specific but the numbers of people who use, you know, these products is extraordinary, so the scale of something like that could have really great impact. RZ Also there’s no segmentation here. This isn’t a urban problem or an American problem— AC Yeah, I know. PF Yeah, you’re— AC I think it’s a not talked about problem which makes it actually extra fascinating. PF Your persona work is pretty simple on this one. RZ Straightforward and it’s global in scale, I mean. [16:39] PF The other thing uh that I love is you and I love to talk about how we like really, you know, difficult, disgusting, horrible problems. And that’s a— RZ Are you looking at me right now, Paul? [Laughter] PF You and me. Yes. RZ Yes, yes. PF Yeah, we love to— we love to brag about it and that’s an actual like— RZ That’s an actual horrible problem. PF Cath— catheters that have to be clean where you can’t get the insurance money. So you had an agency. AC Yeah. It’s— it was that but it was, you know, sister to uh a design like publication platform. So this is ‘95. I had graduated in ‘86 and ‘87 from Pratt with an industrial design degree and I was— I did my thesis on stick proof hypodermic needles. So hypodermic needles where you couldn’t get an accidental needle stick. PF Gotcha. AC Uh HIV/AIDS was like new and everyone, you know, all the healthcare industry was like freaking out. The world needed a device like this. I mean now it’s like mandated by law but in those days it didn’t exist and no one could spend anymore money on any kind of— RZ State the problem, again. AC Um, you’re taking blood or [huh] you’re giving a shot [yeah] um and you remove the needle from the arm and you turn and accidentally um, you know, stick somebody [mm hmm] or you’re sheathing um the needle with the needle cap, the plastic cap, and you miss it and you jab your thumb. RZ Yourself. AC Um I worked for a year and a half in that area, ultimately it expanded to um a phlebotomy which is a fancy word for laboratory blood collection. So looking at the whole, well, user journey of blood from when it leaves the arm to when you’re gonna get, you know, a result. So things like, you know, when you put blood in a test tube— we’re getting very detailed now, right? Um that blood builds up pressure and so when you open up the rubber test tube top it can aspirate into your face, um and you can contract HIV/AIDS through your eyes that way. Um this is getting lovelier and lovelier, right? Um so I graduated and I knew I wanted to go into medical design. I always had like a big problem with solid waste. I knew I wanted to design things but I couldn’t stand the idea of mass production in just garbage. So I went into medical design. The joke’s on me, of course, cuz, you know, medical design creates more plastic than anything [crosstalk and laughter] and it’s like incinerated so it’s like extra bad, right? [18:51] PF It’s not like a styrofoam wrapper for a hamburger. That’s like [Rich laughs]. AC Oh I mean the mechanics in some of these devices like surgical staplers, I mean and it’s all just thrown out after a single use. I got to continue my interest in HIV/AIDS, I worked in secret on a project for Johnson & Johnson, it was the first home— uh home HIV test kit. PF Sure. AC But they weren’t ready to put their name on it and so like we couldn’t tell anybody we were working on it. Mackenzie was involved; the FDA; [wow] C. Everett Koop, if you remember this very beloved [yeah] Surgeon General [yeah]. Uh you know so I’m like behind the one way mirror like testing the design of this— of this kit that you would essentially prick your finger and then it provided a dry blood sample and then it— it sent in the mail but we knew that we were, you know, we— even in those days, we didn’t call it like, you know, user segmentation but we knew that we were really looking at sexually active teenagers; we knew that we were looking at, you know, in all candor, like cheating spouses [sure]; we knew that we were looking at groups that are high risk for HIV; and that this thing was gonna be done secretly and in some like with a lot of anxiety [mm hmm]. And so pricking your finger— RZ Lock the bathroom. AC So lock the bathroom. So thank you. That’s the first place is where is this is gonna happen? It’s gonna happen in the bathroom. So in the bathroom, not a lot of horizontal surfaces. Right? So we actually had to create— PF Ahhh. AC— a surface, this kit actually unfolded into a surface because we knew that it was gonna be in some sense laying in the sink. PF It’s not a desk. RZ You’re on toilet. [20:15] PF You’re not in a lab. Yeah. AC Well it’s before phones, so— you’re not in the toilet that long. Yeah. Um well and then it gets— so you have to get rid of the evidence, so the kit has to somehow go away. PF Yeah. RZ Alright. So wait, I’m trying to visualize it, so you’re in the bathroom, maybe you got on the floor, maybe you sat on the toilet. You open this kit up, it kinda creates almost like a— I guess a tray. AC Kind of a flat surface. Yeah. RZ A flat surface. Ok. Next. AC The big battle was the pre-test counselling. PF Ok. AC Because there had never been— there’s no precedent for a home diagnostic kit, like a pregnancy kit for instance, of a fatal disease [right]. Right? Um also the false-positive and false-negative was really, really important here because— RZ Stakes are high. AC— even if you were negative, you had to be re-tested in three more months [right]. Right? And it had to be private. So the idea— we came up with this like barcoding system where you would pull out this ticket and we shaped it in the size of a credit card so it was a very familiar shape. And you could put it in your wallet and hide it. PF Right. AC But if you were in a situation where you weren’t hiding this kit, where you were with a partner, and you were both doing it, let’s say, then that number would be on there. Ultimately there was a 1-800 number and the way that it shaked out was that if it was negative, you would get a kind of recording and if it was positive, you would get a live person [mm hmm]. So this was really hard to do and there were two different land sets in the package cuz sometimes you miss on the first one cuz it really hurts [sure]. So even if you miss and you don’t get enough blood, you have to do it again. And you’re really scared to do it again. Like I’d come home with these like sore fingertips for weeks [right] um— [21:48] PF Oh cuz you have to test this thing, constantly. AC The full user journey, right? So now what happens? You haven’t— it hasn’t worked. You take it back to the drugstore and you want a refund? This is supposed to be anonymous. Right? There’s no name attached to this. You’re not registering to do this. So— so thinking through these just unbelievably complex— RZ Sure. AC— thorny user experience design issues. RZ Also, there’s— there’s blood on stuff. AC The whole thing is just— [yeah]. You know back to the pre-test counselling— or the no pre-test counselling because C. Everett Koop was so beloved in those days, I think a deal was made probably bar— uh you know, brokered by Mackenzie and FDA that if C. Everett Koop wrote the— the manual then that, in some sense, would count as pre-test counselling. I mean it really came down— RZ That’s ridiculous. PF Woah! AC — It really came down to, like, “Listen: people should go to a clinic. They should go their doctor.” [Right] And then on the other side it’s just like, “People don’t go to the clinic, they don’t have a doctor, people are dying. Do you want this kit with a booklet? And no pre-test counselling in person? Or we’re gon— or nothing?” And so it became this really— it was an extraordinary— RZ It was a lot at play. AC— moment in time. Yeah. RZ Yeah. AC So as— and every one of these was just such an unbelievable design decision. It comes on the market, it’s ripped off in one day. [Someone whistles in disbelief/amazement] Right? The knockoff like same forward factor; similar graphic identity; basically the same layout. I think it was on the market— J&J was on the market for I think a year or two only, you know they really need a homerun with J&J like just the scale— PF It’s a giant company. Yeah. AC Yeah, so they, you know, have to sell a lot of anything and they’ll— they’ll sink, you know, huge sums of money into R&D for a product and if it doesn’t go, it doesn’t go. Um— [23:26] PF This is not something you can market like Q-Tips. AC No and all of— I mean imagine those meetings. PF Yeah. AC Right? PF Well that’s just giant company, too [yeah]. Like what are you gonna do? You got Mackenzie and the FDA in there. It’s a tornado. [Yeah, yeah]. And little Allan just trying to do his job [laughs]. AC Yeah, you know, I was just— anyways, so um I started teaching in 1995 and that’s where I met Eric Ludlum and Stu Constantine who were the founders of Core77 and Pratt was smart enough— for their thesis they wanted to make a website. So this was like two years into the World Wide Web and um and that was the year that I started teaching and Pratt was smart enough to hire them to design their first pratt.edu website and gave them um a room and a T1 line which you will appreciate. RZ Woo! PF Yeah. AC Yeah, right? PF Wooooo! AC Um and essentially like incubated them when that word wasn’t a word yet [sure] and so in those days I would teach like a full day which was amazing. Like three hours in the morning; three hours in the afternoon; like sophomore id studio. You could show a film; you could have a discussion; do critiques. It was amazing. PF Oh so it was a good thing? AC It was a good thing. PF That much teaching? AC Yeah but I had a lunch hour and I— PF I’m tired just— [24:26] AC — well yeah, now it’s like unimaginable [laughter] but I’d go there— I’d go there at lunch time and uh to the Core77 office and I would like learn HTML. PF Sure. RZ For those that don’t know what is Core77? Let’s— AC Uh so Core77 was actually the first design website online. It specialized in industrial design. So it had a very tight like per-view. And Stu and Eric talk about it that they created the site that they wish they had when they were looking for grad schools. PF Sure. AC Um and it had all of these sections, it had a resource section. Um like you remember what things were like in 1995, right? It was like web 1.0. Um— PF There wasn’t that much web! AC No, no, I mean and it was— you know these were static pages. I actually had a column called Contraptions. Stu and Eric tease that I— they say that I was first design blogger which actually might be true cuz I— I would pick like a funny object and write like some pithy paragraph about it and do like five of them a month kind of thing. PF I’m just worried Jeffrey Zeldman will burst through this door. AC I know. Yeah [laughs]. RZ He’s coming for us from three blocks away. AC Yeah I don’t know [Paul laughs] if there were web standards either. So I— I got to know these guys and um— and then there was a project that uh I was consulting with Ayse Birsel for Herman Miller. It was this brand new— you might remember a system called Resolve, it was based on 120 degree angles instead of 90 degree angles. PF Oh that’s right! It was the future of the cubicle! [25:40] AC Yeah it was— it was phenomenal. RZ Oh! PF Yeah. AC And then the first Dot Com bust happened, you know, eight months later. Like Herman Miller couldn’t build enough factories to make enough of this stuff and just— it was just unbelievable [Paul crosstalks]. No, in the contract furniture industry, that’s the first to go. PF Oh ok. Oh, that’s interesting. AC That was heartbreaking. Anyways, so I started doing some consulting with Stu and Eric at Core77 and uh we did this project for this Resolve system and it actually won a lot of awards like, you know, The Gold Pencil and the Silver Cube, I actually like have those engraved [mm hmm] and all of a sudden, Herman Miller starts calling and said, “Well, can you do that for our system?” [Sure!] And then we started to do all like the physical computing in our— PF Ah that’s for young designers, what’s a better than a call from Herman Miller? AC Well, yeah and [26:19?] was around and, you know, we worked with a lot of amazing artists. From ITP and— PF That’s really close to like the core, right? AC And they’re design-driven, right? PF Yeah. AC So, yeah we couldn’t ask for much. Anyway so I ended up like running a lot of this stuff in between like, you know, managing editing, um— PF I see you’re always teaching. AC Yeah, it’s a long time.  Yeah. PF Yeah. AC It’s probably 23 or 24— 24 years. And then um so that design publishing went on a long time and Core grew, the web grew, like everything exploded. [26:49] PF Are you connected day to day? Are you kind of advisory now? AC You know I’m on— I’m on partner meetings [ok] um you know most of my life is at SVA right now. PF Right. AC But yeah, no, it’s um— PF It’s still very much part of your life. AC It’s, you know, there’s not a lot of things that have lasted that long. PF No. AC Uh that are really about, you know, making design connections and helping people find either fascinating things to care about or fascinating opportunities, you know, job opportunities or finding talent. RZ So, Allan, design— it feels like somebody made two or three billion stickers that say “design” on them [yeah] and gave them out to everybody [yup], designers and non-designers, [yeah] and now there’s— there are design stickers on everything. PF Well there’s design stickers on giant consulting firms around technology, around— just everybody’s a designer. RZ The way a term’s like, you know, “customer journey” get tossed around. I mean it’s a strange— I’ve watched this not as a designer but more as a spectator— AC Mm hmm. RZ— and seen I think it’s the last ten years, more like five I feel like it really started to heat up. PF Well, do we— let’s— let’s actually— you’re saying, let’s ask Allan: do you feel that design has been commoditized in the last ten years? In a way that it wasn’t before? RZ Or describe this, like I— it’s just exploded and one I— I mean you can put on one hat and say, “Isn’t this great? Finally we’ve arrived.” And then there’s the other hat which is, “God we’re being— I mean it’s just— it’s been diluted into shit.” Uh give me your perspective on where we’re at today. [28:28] AC I think the first thing to notice— like so I’m not cynical about this, like the first thing to notice is that design has moved from something that is seen as aesthetic and coming at the end to something that is truly strategic, you know? And coming at the beginning. Adn like you understand that better than anybody. Right? You know? Again, you’ll make something beautiful but in a— in a Bucky Fuller kind of way if it’s the right solution, it will be beautiful. You don’t have to make it beautiful. So I think that there’s a new appreciation that— PF If you like domes. AC If you like domes. PF If you love a dome. AC Yeah. PF Yeah, ok. AC And then the other thing that, you know, people love to make fun of is design thinking which, you know, um even Tim Brown would like argue is just it’s pretty common sense. Right? Like work with your user; uh listen; prototype early; and then do it again. You know and iterate. And like don’t be an idiot. Basically. Like those [Rich laughs] are it. That’s design theory. PF That’s the man who runs IDEO. AC Yeah. PF Yeah, that’s Tim Brown. Ok. RZ Um design thinking is a wonderful thing. PF Well [sighs] — AC Well but people— but people make fun of it. And I think that a lot of people who make fun it— I mean first of all: the word, I talked about this in that no meeting article [https://productsofdesign.sva.edu/blog/nomeeting], the word thinking is in design thinking and everybody knows that design isn’t about thinking, it’s about making stuff. It’s about doing. PF Right. AC Um so right away it’s tricky um and then the idea is that if you thought about something hard enough then you— you would solve it, and that’s like ridiculous. I also think that people who criticize design thinking have actually never been in a design thinking workshop. Like I’ve run one uh with a bunch of um doctors and some managers and med students at Jefferson University just a couple months ago, and it’s like they see God. Like they can’t believe, they come up to you after and they’re like, “I can’t believe . . . I didn’t know about any of this. I can’t believe the notion of iteration. I didn’t even know that word, for instance. I didn’t know that we could make a low resolution like, you know, prototype of a webpage on a three— you know on a mobile app on three Post It notes and actually see something that we’ve been sitting in meetings just talking about and doing nothing about.” It’s like a revelation to them. RZ Mm. [30:24] AC So I think that people would be less willing to criticize— PF Well that’s the conversation where design thinking is brutal in the marketing message. AC Well and that’s the thing is journalists like to talk about the over promise of design thinking [right] and of course that’s bad. And again the over promising is— is part of the problem, the— the— the journalism of the over promising part is— that’s a fun article to write. You know? So. PF Well there was also a moment where everything kind of caught fire and went too far. It’s like TED was a good example like [mm hmm] 90 percent of the TED content is typical magazine style content. It’s pretty packaged up and then 10 percent is a little woo woo [mm hmm]. And fine, ok. Like that’s— that’s how America works and how we consume content but there was so much of it at one point that everybody was like, “I’m gonna make fun of this now.” AC Yeah, yeah, no, and I mean I think everything comes up for parody at a certain point [that’s right]. You know I liked it before it was cool kind of thing. PF Yeah. Yeah, yeah. AC Um so I see the more people talking or thinking about design as an actual process and not as a thing, as an artifact, like the better. That is— RZ It’s really value. AC Especially in a world where, you know, cynically, you know, it’s all about extracting value. Like the design process adds value. PF Right. AC Um and the earlier the better. Um I know Postlight’s like super design driven and you have a place, you know, you understand that everything, you know, starts and ends with design. [31:45] PF Thank you, you’ve saved us 30 seconds of marketing [Rich laughs]. AC Yeah. Ah it’s really, really true. RZ If you don’t mind [Paul laughing, Allan crosstalks] we’re gonna use that clip— AC Yeah, for sure. PF “Allan Chochinov says,” [Rich laughs] um you know a tricky thing too is the process can be really goofy, and that it’s hard to like it’s hard to commoditize like goofy thinking— AC Uh and— and risky, I mean if you’re a designer, you have to be comfortable with ambiguity [yeah] and business is not comfortable with ambiguity. Like they— they’re in the risk reduction business, right? A lawyer is too. Regulatory too. Policy too. So— PF One of the ways that I think we’re able to get stuff— AC— it’s antithetical to a lot of people’s like you know— RZ Sure. It’s scary. AC— way of life. RZ It’s a scary process. AC It’s really scary, yeah. PF One of the ways we get things across the line is just it’s so hard to ship software that people accept— there’s a point about halfway through on a lot of projects where we’re like, “You know, I know when you walked in and you said this and this and we said we didn’t know, we weren’t a 100 percent sure. It actually turns out that instead of A and B, C’s gonna be the better path.” They’re so anxious about not shipping that they’re able to sort of like process and listen and react to that because they’ve had experiences where things haven’t gone out the door because people have tried to do everything for them. RZ Also transparency is key there [yeah] like you can’t show up and say, “Listen: um it’s gonna be path C.” They— they have to have seen how we got there and involved— PF Rich has a wonderful maxim which is nothing’s bad news uh 60 days ahead. [33:10] AC Oh I love that. Mine is everything’s shitty until it’s better. You know? PF Right. AC Everything’s worse until it’s better. PF And if you just keep telling the story and they know that like, you know, path C is probably gonna be our option but it’s two months before delivery date, everyone is gonna calm down. AC Well do you think that— that scale like that number 60 changes depending on how, in some sense, in love they are with their own idea before they managed to get to you, to find you? PF [Exhales] We— we— AC Like how dug in they are to like, “We know that this is—” PF We destroy the love at outset of engagement. RZ Well, it’s— it’s— we have very much— we don’t report back, we’re more like, “Come on in. Come sit. [Yeah] At the table.” And you know that virtual table is Slack today. We don’t do the weekly report. We’re like, “Here’s what’s going on. Come on in.” Sometimes they don’t do it. They don’t come in. And then they just show up and they say, “Hey, what’s going on?” And— PF Actually not— not of the current class. Like we’ve got most of that out of the business. RZ Yup. It’s— it’s very— PF It’s too risky. RZ— collaborative. And because we want them to, first off: we want to have them in the room as we talk through the problem because a lot of times they’re the domain experts, not us. We’re just— AC Oh yeah. RZ We’re still trying to learn their world. AC Well I think appreciation for local knowledge is a nice tenet of design thinking. RZ Absolutely. Absolutely. AC It’s like not everybody— the client isn’t an idiot all the time. RZ Exactly. AC Kind of thing. Um. Yeah. [34:27] PF We are done with that. Like that— when we started this firm, my instinct was the clients were gonna show up and they were gonna show up and they were gonna be smarter than they used to be. The consumer of a platform company services is often a— a product leader on the other side and they— or they are experienced or they— also the— the resources for learning for what apps and what platforms and APIs are are— are so much better than they used to be [mm hmm]. So they come in pretty educated. AC Well and they also have consumer experiences on their devices [that’s right] that are like, “How come our work doesn’t work like this?” [That’s right] Like, “How come I don’t have a dashboard for this for my business but I do for my jogging?” PF Yeah, that’s right. AC “You know my running.” So, maybe half the battle is done for you. Maybe not half but at least they understand power of design, they may not understand the actual, you know, plumbing of it. RZ I think it has to do with— and I think you’ll see this even right up to big consulting, I mean the message now is, “We’re gonna worry about these problems with you. We’re gonna work through this. Design is part of the whole story. Here. Rather than it’s a bolt on.” And— and we say that, and so when people come to us, they kind of have an idea of how it’s gonna go, that we’re not a just raw engineering shop that is gonna take a blueprint and just produce the thing. AC I just wonder— you know one of my favorite quotes is Petrula Vrontikis, she’s a— a designer and a teacher in California, she says, “I work with my ears.” And so I wonder sometimes like well what kind of clients come in here where you’re mostly listening and what kind of clients are coming in here where you have to just help them understand like who are; what you believe; the process; the kind of team that you have. RZ Usually when they come here, there is so much bottled up. We go into pure listening mode. We just— we don’t even wanna actually have a dialogue much. We just sort of let them go. AC Put it out like let us see the reality of what you’re worried about, basically. [36:20] RZ Exactly. PF Around about minute 50 of a meeting— AC Yeah. PF I— I think like, “Oh, you know, we should tell them what we do.” Seriously like that’s— RZ We gotta let ‘em go and do the thing and then little by little we start to get into the— the conversation. You’re gonna know pretty quickly um whether this person is going to relinquish a lot of that control to allow us to do our thing or if it’s— if it’s going to be too tight and it’s gonna not allow this to be a success. And we can see it. Usually in that first or second meeting you can tell. AC Yeah, I’m sure you have really good instincts as well. Well lemme ask you the magic wand question like if you had a magic wand, what would you want that person to ask you or to know about you in those initial meetings where they’re trying to understand like, “Do I need design?” Like, “What is design capacity gonna do for me?” And I mean sort of where we started about choosing, you know, whether to go to school at all or with school and if your organization is the right fit for them. What would they ask you? Or what would they tell you that you couldn’t sort of sort of interrupt them at minute ten, say, “Listen, can you—” PF No, I mean— AC This would be helpful. PF For me, and Rich you might have a different point of view, but for me it’s just it’s very much— it takes a long time to get to the user. People have their— they have their peers and their business— AC They have the wrong user usually. PF Yeah and they’ve got the CEO and they’ve got so many anxieties. They have either money they have to spend or money they have to go ask for and— RZ Promises they’ve walked around for bigger companies. PF And who are we? Who the hell are we? AC Oh right, of course, like you’re not necessarily the only people they’re talking to. PF No and so they’re— they’re trying to figure us out. And so it often takes I think really three or four conversations until you can finally relax everybody and they can say, “Yeah, no, I know exactly who the user is here.” Right? But they cannot relax into that on that first meeting. It’s actually very closely held information. [38:13] RZ It’s often ambiguous. We had a client, the message was: there’s a big event coming in 90 days. And we wanna do a thing so that there’s— we make a good impact at the event. AC Right. RZ Like ideas came out like you know you pop the confetti thing? [Laughs] AC Exhibition design; branding; the whole brand environment. RZ They didn’t know. They had ideas. They had sketched stuff out. And they had what was actually great was they had this timeframe which we were able to use as sort of a forcing function [yeah, that’s true] to say, “Alright, listen: some of these are great and 3D is awesome.” AC [Chuckling] “But 90 days is 90 days.” RZ [Laughing] “But we’re 90 days away.” Right? AC And you’re budget’s your budget. RZ Exactly. That steering process and then eventually you have to give us the keys, right? We’re like, “Ok, we gotta run fast here.” I mean that is the reality. PF You’re gonna set up the server, you’re gonna put it on Rails at that point. RZ Yeah, yeah. And— and— AC And you might not get to test it so much. PF No, that’s right. That’s right like— AC Cuz an event like doesn’t slip. That’s— that’s the scary part of that. RZ It doesn’t slip. AC It’s just like, “Well, if we wait three more, you know, weeks, it’ll be, it’ll be [exactly] —” [39:15] PF No, it won’t get better and we won’t fail. Like we won’t let you fail. And so we actually have to build that relationship. The good news is that the people who are right over your shoulder watching every little bit, they tend to be super cheap. Like they don’t wanna pay. They wanna watch you and they wanna tell you how to do it and they’re gonna— they’re gonna watch every minute and so by the time we get even— even to back of envelope, they’re gone. AC They’ll know. You know that chart? It’s like, you know, design fees? You know whatever it is like 500 dollars, you know, if I do it [yeah], 750 if you watch me do it. PF Yeah [laughs]. AC You know? 1100, you know, if you’re in the room, you know. PF That’s right. AC Um and it just gets more expensive the more um [laughter] — there’s a bunch of these things on Instagram. They’re pretty great. I’m gonna find one and send it to you. RZ It’s also— I mean we think about the designers, it’s pretty demoralizing if you’re just— if somebody took your hand while it’s on the pencil [yeah] and are just constantly in there. It’s very— PF It’s not good. RZ It’s not good. PF Alright, Allan, what do people do to get in touch with you? AC I’m not much on Twitter. I mean I’ll be on it cuz I feel like I have to be on it. I like Instagram for hobbies. So that’s a good place to find me. Um, you know, you go down to chochinov.com but uh probably SVA is gonna be the— you know where you’re gonna see the most exciting stuff. So. PF Where? What is the name of the program? AC It’s uh Products of Design, it’s plural. Productsofdesign.sva.edu. PF Alright. AC Oh and I have this whole essay on changing the word “meeting” to the word “review”. Uh the argument is that if you use the word— if you had a review at three o’clock this afternoon, you know, you’d look like an idiot showing up empty handed to something called a review. But if you had a meeting at three o’clock like whatever, no need to prepare. So um this idea came up um in a— in a staff meeting from Alisha Wessler, our Director of Operations, and, you know, it was like, “Can we— can we reimagine the word ‘meeting’? Can we actually just change it in the department?” And she said, “Well what about the word ‘review’?” I was like, “That’s it!” So I went back to my computer and I downloaded an autocorrect Chrome Extension and I made it correct one word, whenever I typed the word “meeting”, it would change it to the word “review”. And then I went into my iOS and did the same thing. Um and so I spent seven months not being able to type the word “meeting”. [41:22] RZ How’d that go? AC It was awesome. Because you type “meeting” and then it changes it into “review” and you’re like, “Oh no, actually, we should probably ask people to like do something before we take their time and get together.” RZ Huh. I’m applying this test right now, so it’s like— AC Yeah. PF No, it’s not— it’s not— don’t just bring your ideas. Bring a plan. AC Anything— any kind of prototype. PF Yeah. AC Um and so one of our faculty, Bill Cromie, actually built a custom extension called No Meeting. Uh so you don’t have to like type in anything— RZ [Crosstalk] God bless web extensions— AC No, and get this: he came up with this idea to make a Slack bot, which he did. Which you can find at this— at this article. So when you type it into Slack, if the No Meeting Slack bot is in there, then the Slack bot will pop up and it says, “Hey, I noticed you uh typed the word ‘meeting’, would you like me to change that to the word ‘review’ so that people always come prepared to future gatherings?” PF Allan! RZ This was great. PF Yeah. I could listen to stories about medical devices being designed for the rest of my life. AC Well, thanks for having me. RZ Allan, thanks— thanks so much. [Music fades in] This was great. AC Yeah, this has been a thrill. RZ A lot of fun. AC Thank you. PF Hey, if anybody needs us, hello@postlight.com, that’s the email that you could send to and it would go to me and Rich and we’ll forward it to Allan if you have any questions for him. AC Ah, totally. PF Alright, let’s get outta here. Let’s hang out and talk about medical devices [music ramps up, plays alone for four seconds, fades out to end].

In todays episode, we talk about whether you should write about the cost of your service on your website. Many people like to keep this hidden. We discuss the opportunities to be had from writing about how much it's going to cost to work with your business. Listen to this episode:Watch this Episodehttps://youtu.be/TIABDW4IpzE Darryl: Hi! And welcome to “The My Bloody Website” podcast, where we talk about all things online especially for small, medium business owners or marketers. I'm Darryl King, I've been running a web agency for over 25 years. My co-host Ed Pelgen who’s been running his online marketing agency for about as long. Our goal is to cover things in a way anyone can understand and can improve how they use online in their business. Episode 36 and we're going to go with a Content topic this week: Writing about What Your Service Costs. How are you going Ed? Edmund: I'm going very well Darryl. How about yourself? Darryl: yeah, I'm going good. So we have, had a few sort of navel-gazing episodes and discussions in the last three. Talking a little bit about staying on track focusing about what you're doing; you know, how to use providers etc etc. We're gonna do more of a Content episode again. we had a bit of a break from some of the content stuff a couple of months back and this one is a topic that comes up where a lot of people don't like to write about what their service costs. Are we're talking very much about service businesses, not product businesses, most products put prices up online. The number of service providers don't necessarily put rates up. They have, may have justifiable reasons or it may be just something that they feel like they can't write about and the goal of this would be to talk about that in some depth about how you can use that topic to produce not necessarily a blog post. It could be about how you explain it on our page, it could be on the service page, it could be a particular pricing page, could be in any number of places (1:34 or/to embed video) Edmund: Yeah, and that's right and I think it's a good opportunity to talk about it because there's been a reticence in the past for people to talk about costs because they don't want to give away the secret sauce so they think it's a loss of competitive advantage and look admittedly some businesses where the service is complex they need more information before they can discuss cost but I guess where we're coming from is just having the conversation about cost, the components how you work it out; you know, how it's; how; what are the variables that go into a higher cost project or a lower cost project. Those are good opportunities from a marketing perspective, from positioning attraction. Yeah? So it's a good thing to think about and then you can work out whether it's right for your business. Darryl: I suppose this comes into the topic of value came up in previous weeks Edmund: hmm Darryl: that is it because of the cheapskate mindset or is it you know like that competitive advantage thing. why do you reckon people; oh, not why reckon because you just said that but maybe part of the problem is that people don't explain the value they offer and it's again the (2:48). I don't want to tell you what a great advantages where some people don't have a problem at all. What; you know, what’s the right way to approach it? Edmund: well I would; oh, well; if you're gonna research this online the probably the most prominent figure who started talking about this from a; from a tactical perspective. I guess is a guy called Marcus Sheridan who ran a marketing company called the Sales Line. And in his previous life he was a pool manufacturer, you know; they sold pools Darryl: Hmm Edmund: and he from his perspective and this is in the early days of the web he got a huge amount of traffic to his pages on his website. Where he wrote about the cost of the pool. How much does a concrete pool cost and you know, how much is a fiberglass pool cost and you know; h...

What finish should I use for my PCB Design? There’s no one single answer, it depends. Meet chemist and surface finish expert Mike Carano, the Vice President of Technology and Business Development at RBP Chemical, industry leaders in high performance chemical technology. Mike emphasizes a key question when it comes to surface finishes, “What are the reliability requirements of the environment?” Learn about the chemistry behind different finishes, fabrication and get tips for avoiding corrosion in unexpected environments in this episode of the OnTrack Podcast. Show Highlights: Mike was Inducted into IPC hall of fame. RBP Chemical - veteran owned small business, based in Milwaukee, founded in 1954 as a supplier for the printing industry and over the years evolved into surface finishes and also carry product lines for Embedded Medical Devices and Semiconductor and Mining industries. On using solder mask over bare copper method - prior to going out to assembly the copper needs to be made pristine. What are the surface finishes and which to use when? 50% of industry using hot air solder leveling (HASL), a surface finish with a long successful history. Other surface finishes: Electroless nickel immersion gold (ENIG), Electroless Nickel Electroless Palladium Immersion Gold (ENEPIG) - which is common in IC substrate, packaging industry. Future of surface finishes: Tin-silver, Direct palladium copper What finish should I use? There’s no one answer, it depends. Are there common examples of things that can go wrong? ie. High frequency design applications - ENIG is a well known issue that most engineers learn about the hard way. Where is the final product going to be used? Is it a domestic product or for the military? Reliability first, cost last. Cost should not be driving force. The environment is what really matters i.e. Shock-drop or Brunel fracture - consider for mobile phones, ENIG - tin-nickel bond, not tin-copper, corrosion environments, temperature extremes What are the reliability requirements of the environment? The most high quality board fabricators have strong process control and automation in place to ensure chemical stability. Board designers are looking for electrical performance. Need to ask about the environment. I would put every designer in a circuit board fabricator for a week and let them build a board they design. To learn, you need to practice and get practical information on building the bareboards. Creep corrosions on the mill automation machines because the OEM is specifying the finish. Japanese techniques i.e. Shokuku chemical Most substrate work is done in Asia; IC substrate packaging at its best is in Japan. Advice for learning: IPC courses, CID and CID+ training is one way to learn more. Links and Resources: RBP Chemical Trouble in Your Tank IPC Hall of Fame Interview Video IPC Hall of Fame induction IPC courses HDP Users Group (HDPUG) SMTA.org   Hey everyone it's Judy Warner with Altium’s OnTrack podcast. Welcome back we are glad to have you join us again today we have a very unique topic and speaker which was actually brought about by Mark Okumura who is the Senior Principal Hardware Engineer from ETS Lindgren who reached out to me and asked me about the topic of surface finishes and lucky for you I happen to know the guy who is a chemist and expert on surface finishes. A longtime friend Mike Carano from RBP Chemical. Before Mike and I get started, I wanted to please invite you to connect with me on LinkedIn or on Twitter, I'm @AltiumJudy. Altium is on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook, and also please know that we're recording on YouTube in case you want to see our sunshiny faces. So Mike, welcome thanks so much we’re delighted to have you. Thanks for inviting me. It's good to know friends in high places right? Well, I have friends in low places. [Laughter] I don't believe it, well maybe, so Mike, I’ve got a question. First of all let's talk about your background a little bit so as a way of introduction Mike Carano was inducted into the IPC Hall of Fame a few years ago and I had the privilege of doing the video interview that was highlighting his induction into the IPC Hall of Fame because he has served on so many committees and boards for IPC, but he really is the go-to guy on chemistry. So Mike, tell us a little bit about your background how you got into chemistry specifically related to the printed circuit board electronics industry? Well sometimes Judy, things happen by accident really, chemistry and sciences were always a love of mine so I always liked to experiment - my parents got me the chemistry set, and   everything from blowing up golf balls to me making things at home, everything from even experimenting with making wine that's chemistry - that seemed like a good thing to do right? I also realized that probably owning a vineyard would not be in the immediate future so onward and upward with chemistry, particularly the area of physical and advanced chemistry electrochemistry working on a Master's Degree, I happened to be walking up on campus one day back in 1980, 24 years old, and there's a gentleman standing outside this building and he noticed my chemistry books he says, hey come here I want to talk to you, and I thought, oh what's this about? And I noticed the sign on the door there, Youngstown Ohio City Electrochemicals, and he asked me if I wanted to interview for a position there. Well it was perfect because graduate school was more part-time. I was doing some teaching assistance and what do you know, I interviewed for this thing on surface finishing chemistry having no idea really what I was getting into, but I did. The idea was finishing my Master's degree, and go on and do something else - maybe do this for two years - well 39 years later here I am still in the industry. In some way, shape, or form, so that's how I got into this and as the company, Electrochemicals in those days, founded primarily on the metal finishing industry - you know, surface finishing for doorknobs and bumpers and decorative plating. Well the company was just then getting into printed circuit board chemistry and a lot of people didn't even know what that was in those days because it was a fledgling industry there was mostly - remember Judy way back then was the 80% of the industry was really run by the OEM... Yeah -So digital equipments the the Adelphi’s, the Delco’s the IBM's, but pretty soon there was that switch, and then I got involved in IPC and pretty soon was formulating chemistries and technical service, traveling globally around the world was fascinating for me, and here I am today, and still in the industry in some way, shape, or form. You know, you evolve, you continue to evolve matter of fact, just like surfaces they've evolved. Yeah right. Where we are today, I'm sure they'll continue to evolve in the very near future. Yeah for sure, so can you give us a quick overview, I know you were Chief for many many years and now you're with RBP can you give us a quick thumb nutch of RBP? Absolutely, great opportunity, company privately owned (veteran owned) small business, our company is based in Milwaukee Wisconsin and was founded in 1954 and has been privately held since. The current CEO and majority owner is Mr Mark Kannenberg, he's my immediate boss, Mark served in Vietnam, he's a West Point graduate and also a Harvard MBA, but he always wanted to kind of get in the business of owning his own company even though he had many, many opportunities. So he's now been running RBP for these last 30 years. Under his control the company has grown beautifully - initially, the company was founded as a supplier of materials and chemistries for the printing industry, newspapers, newsprint magazines, but over the years also evolved into surface finishing, surface treatment and printed circuit board chemistry, which is the company today, because as I said it continues to evolve. Today and we have four major product lines the printed circuit board and photochemical milling chemistries. We have a great product line in the area of embedded medical devices, and we also serve the semiconductor and the mining industries with some specialty additives. A lot of people don't understand the connection but there's a connection all the way through the platforms because the chemistries are basically adapted to work in all those industries which makes working with RBP fascinating for me - the diversification but yet the the continuity and the familiarity - so great opportunity and I've enjoyed it immensely. Good, thank you for sharing that Mike, so let's jump right into surface finishes. I'm sure most of our listeners who are engineers and designers will be familiar with surface finishes but let's just go back to our ABCs for a second and just define surface finishes for us for PCBs. Sure that is the part of the board that is really going to be used to prevent oxidation of the base metal, as you know, typically we have copper as the base metal if you're using the solder mask over bare copper method where you basically put solder mask down that nice green stuff and the copper is showing, you have to make that copper solderable, you have to preserve the solderability so typically, prior to that board going out to the assembly operation, the copper has to be basically made pristine with a finish that does not oxidize so that you can join the component leads, whatever they may be, whether they be surface mounts, through-hole, BGA, QFNS, QFPs, they have to be able to to wet that surface and form a reliable joint. So the surface finish is critical for that application and for that end product. So tell us - give us just a rundown - of what the surface finishes are and then we're gonna jump in to which one to use when. Sure well, here in North America and primarily for the military, we're still using - at least 50 or so percent of the industry - uses hot-air solder leveling. Basically you're taking that solder mask over bare copper board, flexing it, cleaning the copper and then dipping it into a molten solder pot to coat the surface. But over the years, due to a lot of other constraints, one of them was to get rid of lead. And even when we have lead-free, hot air leveling, the other surface finishes have evolved, as a matter of fact, have taken center stage primarily outside of North America. With these surface finishes are we hear the term ENIG, which is Electroless Nickel Immersion Gold we also hear about Electroless Nickel Electrons Palladium Immersion Gold also known as ENAPEG, and while that may be an expensive finish, you see that used quite a bit in the packaging industry, the semiconductor packaging IC substrate industry. Then there is OSP Organic Solderability Preservatives, which is actually the only one of these to be non-metal-containing and then we have immersion silver, and immersion in tin, and again we expect that there’ll be other additions of these finishes coming up in the near future. Potentially a tin silver or direct palladium over copper to get rid of the gold altogether. There's a lot of movement in this area to enhance the surface finish reliability at the same time managing costs because you see how precious metals like gold and palladium can contribute significantly to the cost of that board. Which then makes you wonder, okay what finish should I use and when should I use it? So that's a rundown of our finishes and each one of them - I can tell you this Judy - when people ask me, and I travel all over the world, what finish should I use... Yeah -no one finish fits all. That's a loaded question isn't it Mike? It depends, that's the answer. It depends right. Well as I mentioned in the beginning, this gentleman Mark Okumura reached out to me and said, are you ever going to talk on your podcast, or do you have any information about surface finishes? Because in his particular case - and this is just one of many many high frequency application engineers and designers - have found out the hard way that if they use ENIG the Electroless Nickel Immersion Gold, that if it's high frequency then we have the skin effect and then the signal begins moving through the nickel and the nickel is lossy, and unfortunately that's a well-known issue it's been going on forever but it seems like people have learned that the hard way, unfortunately one at a time, that's just one example. So can we talk about when we talked a few weeks ago, about environment playing a huge role on how to make a selection on your surface finishes. So can you jump into that a little bit? What I mean by environment is, where is that final product going to be used, and let me just preface it this way, if you're in this industry, whether you're in the printed circuit board industry directly or you're an assembler or you're an OEM. Choosing the final finish for that product may be the most important decision you make, because it is going to impact that long-term reliability of least of that solder joint now as I’m saying solder joint,  I'm using it interchangeably with lead-free as well. And compounding that, is again, where are the boards going to be used? Is it to finish in harsh use environments such as automotive under the hood, military aerospace - and that's one application. But then, what about consumer items like mobile phones, smartphones, desktop computers, smart tablets, household devices. You don't need a product or a finish that adds $9 a surface square foot of the board if you're using it in a washing machine in your house, or in a microwave, or even a desktop or laptop computer. Now military aero things like class 3, or class 3A that have to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week and can't fail - you can't fail. You may look at that and you say, well do I need ENAPEG, do I need ENIG? Do I need to make the OSP also work? And some people really are surprised when they find out that OSP’s a very reliable finish. It's not wire bondable but in terms of reliability in forming the copper tin in a metallic, and having a reliable solder joint, it's fantastic. So think about that, it also happens to be the lowest cost finish but I am of the opinion, and I asked somebody this, and I listed ten things I have cost of the finish at the bottom, because that should not be the driving force of what you put on the board. It's the environment where the board is used and then you ask yourself other questions. Is cosmetics important? Do I have to have a shiny silvery finish or don't I need one? I'm worried about shock drop, we know for example, if something I have in my hand drops a lot like a smartphone. you worry about brittle fracture of the components - actually fraction when that phone hits the ground - we've all dropped our phones and the mobile phone companies, the Apples of the world and the Samsung's, conduct shock drop tests all the time because that's important criteria. You don't want to spend money on a new phone, drop it and find out the components fell off. So that's why you don't see ENIG used a lot on the smartphone, you use things like something that makes it much stronger - copper tin and a metallic bond - whereas with ENIG, your tin is formed with the nickel so it's a tin-nickel bond not a tin copper one. I see. So, we all know, and there's been hundreds of papers published by many, many companies and fantastic researchers around the world, showing that the tin to copper in a metallic is much stronger than the tin to nickel in a metallic. So that's something to consider as well, not just the cost. But you might use ENIG in medical devices, we know the military is starting to look at ENIG as a final finish, but they also do some things to ensure the reliability of that component as it is attached to the surface. So there's a myriad of things to look at - oh and corrosion environment - in terms of creep corrosion, and that's an issue and silver tends to be somewhat prone to creep corrosion, but in an industrial environment kind of outside, or in a clay modeling studio or in a paper mill where sulphur is emitted. Yeah that's interesting. So, if you told me, well I'm making this part because I work for General Motors and I'm modeling, I'm gonna use clay to model my next car and I'm gonna have all these computers hooked up inside that studio, I think I'll use boards with silver on them. Well you probably don't want to, your work is gonna be lost, so that's one consideration. As I said shock drop is another, but again where are you using the final product? Industrial automation, using it outside, base stations, all of those things. Industrial controllers where we're subjected to not just environmental contaminants,but maybe significant vibration, temperature extremes etc. So always look at the environment where you're using it and what the reliability requirements are. Can you afford the warranty, what is the warranty when you take something back? If it's inexpensive, you can use an inexpensive finish but if the cost of failure is great, you should rethink that finish which you're going to use and how you're going to use it. That totally makes sense to me. You had mentioned that a lot of people think that OSP is generally a sort of low-tech product, but you were pushing back against that when we discussed that, why is that? Well 25 years ago OSP was what you would call the single attachment finish - one reflow, maybe one through-hole, and that was it. It lasted four to five months whereas the other finishes, like hot air leveling - one year, two year shelf life - that's changed. Companies have made significant improvements in the reliability. Also the the ability of the OSP to reduce oxygen penetration on the copper, and that again is what you're trying to do, you're trying to prevent the underlying copper from oxidizing so that when the solder melts and spreads on the surface, it spreads and encapsulates the leads on the side on the components and solidifies and it's a highly reliable. If the surface is oxidized even slightly and doesn't wet properly you've lost your reliability, but OSP has come on strong now and you see it in automotive under the hoods, major telecommunication companies using it for the reasons of getting away from brittle fracture, you see them in smartphones - a significant number of smartphones - and I have experience in those areas so, I'm talking from personal experience - the reliability is there with the right finish. Now the low-tech you find, if you buy a low-tech OSP from somebody you've never heard of, you’re taking a risk, but the companies out there - two or three that are making significant contributions to the performance of OSP - they've upped the game significantly. Many of them are fifth-generation molecules, these are synthesize organic azone molecules, that just do a fantastic job, and I would not hesitate to recommend it for numerous applications. It's interesting how that's evolved over time, I wasn't aware of that until you mentioned it to me recently, and that's some of the magic of chemistry that just runs in the background of our industry until sometimes - it seems like - until there's a problem. That's right. We don't talk about it, so I'm glad to sort of have this discussion. That’s a good point, to that point Judy, when Black Pad showed up what people will call brittle fracture... Yeah. -it set the industry back 15 years for ENIG because they didn't understand it, they wanted to blame the phosphorus content of the nickel deposit, but that turned out to be incorrect, it turned out that the cause of that was the galvanic effect. When you put immersion gold on top of nickel you're not electrolytically plating it, you're doing an immersion deposit, also known as galvanic cells, so to deposit on nickel, some nickel actually has to corrode and leave the surface, so that the gold can take its place. And that's the main difference of an immersion deposit. Well, what was happening because of the way things were being run, pH, nickel morphology, roughness, etc that galvanic effect was significantly large, causing this corrosion - significant corrosion - to take place on the nickel surface, and that would impact negatively the formation of the solder joint. And there you would get brittle fracture, you drop something, It breaks. So, things are better now, but I still would be very careful, if you told me, I'm gonna put ENIG on my board today, I would say do a first article, make sure that the board design you have, will not end up with this issue. That's a good advice and, for people who are listening. Again - you're going to hear me say this over and over again - and I'm not going to apologize for it, is that you need to get into a board house, find the time because most really good, world-class board houses - you're going to go in and you're going to be surprised to see... and Mike can talk about this, the complexity of the labs they have in place to make sure that their chemicals are stable and doing what they're supposed to do. Mike, I imagine you've spent just more than a little bit of time inside of board houses discussing chemical balance and, if you would, jump in on what the choice of surface finish has on the fabricator and why the designer should know about that? Right yeah, well first let's go back to your first question about these board fabricators the ones that are high-quality board fabricators and I'm looking at not just on the surface finishing side, but also other aspects of the circuit board fabrication including electroless copper, direct metallization, the amount of control that they have in place, process control automation, to keep plating and other the key ingredients within a very tight operating window. And that's not difficult if you invest the time, and you have the commitment to ensure that. I can’t tell you how many times Judy, have been in situations where I've had to troubleshoot a problem because someone said I've got this issue, I've got that issue, you go there and you find out that they were running the chemistry basically way outside the window. Well, why'd you do this? Well, we only check it once every two shifts. Well, you can't have a high volume operation like what you're doing and then check the chemistry once every two shifts and I'm telling you, 90% of these problems that I see related to process, are related to incorrect use of the chemistry and mishandling of the controls that are available to you. Now does that mean that the fabricator needs to work much closer with the supplier, but if the supplier is already doing this for them, the fabricator needs to take some responsibility. But again, I've been with a number of companies who have complete failure analysis labs also in their facility. So, they take it to a very high level, they're basically their own qualification facility to ensure that they understand where the issues are. They categorize every defect and those are the kinds of ones you want to work with. Absolutely, and I've worked for shops like that where they literally had PhDs in chemistry renting the lab. They were doing their own cross section and when suddenly, there's a spike in volume - if you're not on top of it and you don't have those people and all of a sudden - whoops production went up, but we're still checking our bass at the same rate we were before. And then like, oh what happened? Well there's all these things that need to be taken   into consideration and adjust it accordingly. So, what other fabrication considerations are there that that maybe designers or engineers that are designing boards would want to consider as they decide what they're going to choose? Well good that's a good point, and you and I know design is important, because there's this conundrum in our supply chain. The fabricator is looking for design for manufacturing and the designer is designing something to work in a certain fashion. Electrical performance, dielectric spacing, and and they don't take into consideration potentially what that does, how that impacts the bare board fabrication process. That's a very significant right? What - and I'm gonna go back to this - because I find this to be an issue as well on the assembly side boards come into the assembler, they come from somewhere, and they call me and say I have the the plating is lifting from the surface when we assemble, or the solder mask is lifting well I said do you did you specify the grade of solder mask, do you even know what solder mask is being put on the board that you're bringing in to assemble? Well no. Now I find out - it's very easy for me to find out - that they’re using, the fabricator... wherever, typically not here, are using a low $10 a kilo solder mask because no one specified it. And of course, that $10 a kilo or less solder mask is probably gonna work beautifully in a handheld child's toy, it's not going to work very well for your medical device. And you're gonna have all these other problems. So I think, I hope the designers would get more involved in understanding the difficulties in making a bare board and also understand: just don't specify ENAPEG because it sounds great, or sounds sexy. Because number one, you're probably not paying for it, somebody else has to pay for that ENAPEG and at $12 and $10 a square foot.   Understand - and this is where the board designers are looking for the electrical performance - do they ask where the board is going to be used? Is it going to be in a harsh-use environment, is it going to be in a benign environment clay modeling studio? These are the key questions for them. Typically what I see designers do is, say this is how the board should be built, these are the layers, these are the holes, and you should use this material with this dielectric constant. That's all great, but it's not enough. Right And  I've been teaching this advanced troubleshooting course with printed circuit board fabrication for years, and you'd be surprised at the number of designers that actually take that course, and they ask the craziest questions. Which tells me they haven't been outside of the board fabrication, outside of their design studio. Understand that you need to live with that a little bit I would put every designer at least in a circuit board fabricator for two weeks and have them build a board that they designed. Yep I agree it's hard - we encouraged that here a lot - and almost every guest on here says the same thing. Because you and I've been around the block a little while, and understand that there's time constraints for them to get out. However the long-term cost of not getting out there and not onboarding. And this is another plug - you and I've been around IPC awhile - this is another plug for CID and CID+ training, as well because there you onboard some of these things that may be outside of the obvious things that are around manufacturing and assembly. So Kelly Dack wants to start field trips on every CID course. I'm like, yes let's do it! You know, to me that would be fantastic, and to be honest with you and being heavily involved myself in an IPC, one of the things that I've suggested that when CIDs and the CID+ students earned their certifications, they should also have to get some understanding in coursework and practical on the bare board fabrication. You should make it like you did in college, the practicals, you just didn't do the book work, you had to go into the lab... Exactly! -apply what you just learned from the book, because if you couldn't resort to practice, at the end of the day you can't practice it. You've not learned. And as we both know, the cost of ignorance in these areas is so high, like avoidable mistakes. Costly...  I've seen an entire clay modeling studio shut down, a paper mill shut down, because, again the paper mill folks were buying the controls from the OEM who was specifying the boards to be made but the finish... So the poor industrial automation company using these expensive controls were wondering why these inexpensive instruments are no longer doing what they're supposed to do. And they find out that there's creep corrosion in there because the OEM specified immersion silver or bought the board somewhere cheap where the individual companies decided to cut corners, like they do, to meet the cost. Like not putting enough gold on, not putting enough nickel on. You know, there are specs for a reason. There is, absolutely. And that's obviously a discussion for another time. Yeah that's a whole other podcast, and then there's everything you're doing - HDPUG - which is another podcast I'd like to get you on for as well. I want to put a pin in our conversation right now because I realized, in the beginning I failed to mention to our listeners that you may hear some background noise here. There's some... well, what I was telling our producers is, we're building a better podcast but it’s noisy in here, but really what's happening is we have some construction and of course it's overhead in the green room here in our La Jolla office, so it's directly overhead, on this day of course, so please, please excuse any background noise. So Mike, you sit on boards for international companies as well as companies here and you are a respected and trusted advisor. You mentioned to me about things that the Japanese are doing that are very innovative and that is that they're mixing finishes and doing selective finishes can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, and this is if you can see the IC substrate side in the Japanese, or the ones who really made miniaturization go. I mean they understood how to make things small, not just lawn mowers and engines like Toyota Camrys and things like in the Prius, but they figured out early on how to do it with circuit boards and and putting more functionality on the chip. Matter of fact, that's where OSP was actually invented was in Japan, in those days it was called pre-flux because it was in the rudimentary 1970s day, but they pioneered the OSP and matter of fact, today the leading OSP company in the world is Shikoku Chemicals out in Japan, they continue to evolve that chemistry and I trust them immensely. So, going back to that question what you do is, in the IC substrate market, where you've got a complex chip that has to have gold leads or gold wire bonding, you have on one side of the substrate, nickel gold, and then you bond the chip with the wires to that feature. But then on the flip side, which is going to be a BGA feature, you have bare copper which is OSP. So they have the BGA balls on the bottom side and the IC substrate - the chip actually, the the die as they call it - on the top side. So you have ENIG - selectively on one side and bare copper meaning OSP - on the other and of course it's a flip chip. So with the IC substrate or the IC chip in there, you marry that BGA to the Barriss surface of the copper board meaning an OSP, and you've got this fantastic package, if you will, instead of doing it all in the nickel gold or all in ENIG and handle it selectively. And they've developed these processes, and they've also developed a selective imaging, if you will, to make that happen. but it's relatively easy to do, once you understand the ramifications and how to make it work, and make sure you don't get an OSP that doesn't say, ‘attack’ the exposed nickel gold. All these things, it's pretty pretty intricate, but it's been around for some time and with a lot of success so I've selected ENIG as they call it. Interesting, so I was just gonna ask you, what does that do to cost and process ? You're saying it's not difficult, how about cost implications? Well there is an additional cost of putting the second imaging step down to protect the board from plating where you don't want it to go, but instead of doing the entire IC substrate in nickel gold, you're doing just one portion of it where the wires from the chip are placed,  from the die so, that does help you significantly in the long run. It also makes the BGA perform better because you're marrying basically tin to bare copper making another opportunity there. Do you think that will find its way here into North America? Well, the thing is there's only a few fabricators here who do work in the substrate industry, most of the substrate work is done in Asia for the Amcor’s and the Intel's and the Samsung’s so you see a lot of the supply chain there. Some big American owned companies in Asia are doing it in volume, but again, if you want to see IC substrate packaging at its best it's the Japanese. Yeah that makes sense. Yep they’re the leaders,and they've been doing that for 30 years, so they tend to be ahead of their time, but now the time has come. Yeah well it's interesting to get your perspective on sort of a global scale, as well this has been great. Our time is coming to a close here, but will you please share with us links to any white papers or slide decks or anything you have? Because I think how I want to wrap up is Mike, if you are a designer what would you do with all this information? And we've kind of shared it sort of anecdotally and quickly here, but if you wanted to learn more about this where would you go, and what kind of things maybe can you share with our listeners that we can throw on the show notes so they can maybe get better at this. Well very good. I would encourage you designers who haven't taken an IDC course outside of design - I encourage you to take them - you look on the IPC website. We just had Apex where, in addition to technical papers, there were workshops on a number of different subjects including my Advanced Troubleshooting course, but there were also courses on the Basics of Bare Board Fabrication, and some of the instructors do a great job of giving you the tour, if you will, of the very basics. So you can get a feel for how the board starts with bare laminate, actually starts from the design, and actually ends with the finished product, going out to assembly from a manufacturing standpoint, and you can follow that up by taking the Advanced Troubleshooting, so you can understand where some of the problems and technical issues come from when the board is fabricated, with the various chemical steps and the mechanical steps like drilling and plating and immersion gold and silver. Whatever you need to do, that would be something you should do, and also watch for IPC Tech Ed, where they're going to be putting more and more of these courses. Standalones in different parts of the company whether it be San Jose, San Diego. We just did a course in Boston back in April which was well attended, and we just had the High Reliability Conference in Baltimore a few weeks ago, which had a high military aero content to it. But there's a webcast as well. And also, I encourage you to look at the IPC website - http://ipc.org/. Go through the technical papers, look for the events that are going on there but obviously at every Apex there will be this myriad of courses to take, and I encourage you to go to your boss and say, look this is something I think will benefit me, and you're gonna send me there anyways for the other events, so why not get there on a Sunday and take this course? Yeah good advice. SMTA is another good place that has a lot of technical papers and seminars and webinars related to things like surface finishes and design for reliability etc. Matter of fact, IPC actually has a Design for Manufacturing workshop that is taught by some really highly-skilled people too, so that might be something that a designer would benefit from. Again, because the designer or an actual designer is actually teaching the course from experience because he lives it... Yeah -let me build bare boards...   I'm talking like Gary Ferrari and Susie Webb and those folks, they've actually built boards but they also design. Happy Holden and he's built boards, he designs boards, he understands - they get it. Right. That would be an interesting perspective for all those out there. Okay good, that's great stuff. Well we'll make sure to attach the links to IPC and I know they're doing a lot with education right now, and so I'll make sure - and if you have anything to share with me please do - and we'll make sure we also include links to RBP Chemical. Yeah, https://www.rbpchemical.com/ And then we will share anything else that you want, and I'm hoping I might be able to twist Mike's arm to come teach a surface finish course at Altiumlive in October. But we'll see, he's so in demand, hie’s a popular guy - but if I had my wish, that's what we would do because I think it'd be a great place again hope to have about five six hundred designers there so I think they would benefit. So Mike thank you again, you're a dear friend, and thank you so much for always freely sharing your information. Mike also writes a column for PCB007 Magazine, called Trouble in Your Tank, and that's where I learned a lot and actually how I became friends with Mike as I was asking him if I could please take some of his content and repurpose it for blogs I was writing. So we'll also include that link to his column. So Mikey, thank you again you're a dear contributor and friend to the industry and thanks so much for taking time out of your busy day to do this with us it's been fun. Well, thank you Judy, thanks for inviting me. I appreciate it, you have a great day. Thanks you too again. This has been Judy Warner with Altium’s OnTrack podcast and Mike Carano of RBP Chemical. please join us again next time - until then - always stay OnTrack.  

When Lilly Chin knew she couldn’t lose during Final Jeopardy, she decided to give a joke answer: “Who is the Spiciest Memelord?” But that joke became a meme itself—turning Lilly into not just the College Jeopardy champion, but an internet sensation. Today, we chat with the MIT grad student about what it was like to be on the show, how the internet treats women in the public eye, and how her brush with fame changed the way she looks at online visibility. We also talk about Lilly’s research on soft robots, mentorship, Twitch streaming, and doing it all for the stories. > We’re so used to thinking about women in terms of their outward appearance that even when it’s on a very academic game like Jeopardy, people are still defaulting to thinking of, like, an object of attraction. > —Lilly Chin, MIT PhD student and College Jeopardy champ _Note: We’ve donated net proceeds from this episode to RAICES, the largest immigrant legal services organization in Texas, and ActBlue’s fund supporting 12 organizations working with migrant, detained, or deported children and families. Please join us. _ Links from the interview: Lilly’s website The infamous “Who is the spiciest memelord?” clip The Jeopardy subreddit Talia Levin’s article about appearing on Jeopardy, “Big Tits for $600” Justine Sacco’s tweet about AIDS in Africa So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed by Jon Ronson The “right to be forgotten” concept The field of soft robotics Also in this episode: Creating intimate spaces online, from our newsletter to Tiny Letters to private Slack accounts Shopping feminist, ethical, local, and just plain good companies Why Katel has the best sweatshirt ever Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you.   Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript Katel LeDû [Ad spot] Shopify builds software to help anyone with a great idea build a successful business. In fact, more than 50 percent of the entrepreneurs who use Shopify are women, including me! I use Shopify to power abookapart.com and so do people in 175 different countries! Now Shopify needs more great people to join their team. Visit shopify.com/careers to see open positions, learn about their culture, and so much more [music fades in, plays alone for 12 seconds, fades out]. Jenn Lukas Welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KL I’m Katel LeDû. Sara Wachter-Boettcher And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. And we did it, everyone. We did it! KL What? SWB We got Jenn’s dream guest on the show. JL Is it Kesha? SWB Ok. We got Jenn’s second dream guest on the show. That would be Lilly Chin, who’s the 2017 College Jeopardy winner, and a current graduate student at MIT. We talk with Lilly about what it was like to be on the show, how her final Jeopardy answer made internet history, and how the whole experience changed the way that she looks at things like networked culture and online visibility. KL Ugh you know something that really got my attention in Lilly’s interview, I’m really wondering if we can start there for a second. If you subscribe to our newsletter, I wrote a letter to introduce Issue #4 and I talked about how I used to get really bad panic attacks, and I still struggle with a lot of anxiety, and I’ve, you know, done a lot to sort of figure that out. It’s still an ongoing process and while I felt really great to have a platform to share something really personal like that, I also felt really exposed and, I don’t know, it made me think that like, I kind of forget that, you know? We’re in a room talking to each other and it feels really safe and supportive and we’ve had such good feedback about the show, which is great, but, I don’t know, you kind of forget that you’re really putting yourself out there. SWB Yeah, I think about this a lot because I think podcasts do feel intimate, and they feel intimate for the listener, too, but you don’t really who might be listening. And I mean I think with something like a newsletter, you don’t know where that might end up or where it might get screenshotted and shared around. And I think, you know, we’re going to—we’re going to talk with Lilly a little bit more about this, but there’s ways in which that kind of like hyper-visibility or like constant networked feeling online can make it hard to know what context you’re in—and the context shifts on you sometimes without you realizing it. [3:04] KL Totally. I mean even writing that letter for that issue, I was like, ok, this went out to, you know, a hundred some odd people. Thank you for subscribing. But it lives in… forever in internet, and like anyone can find it. And I had these moments the day after we sent it out where I was like, ok. It’s just like, it’s out there. And I think, I don’t know, like it’s a weird feeling. SWB What was making you feel like vulnerable or exposed about it? Or like what is the fear that you have about this letter existing out there where you talked about anxiety? KL I mean I think part of the anxiety that I talk about is the sort of spiral that happens where you start to feel small or weak or like you’re not, you know, up to snuff or you’re not like performing or you’re just not like the person that you’re “supposed” to be. And I think that just is compounded when there’s eyes on that—when people are looking at it and you’re offering it up. And I think ultimately I feel, like I said, very grateful—and I’ve said this I think, you know, to you, if not, you know, recorded it—I’m really proud of the therapy work that I’ve done, and I’m so, so happy that I get to share that. But it’s also, like, weird [laughs] and raw. And so yeah, I don’t know, this whole thing has been like a process a little bit. JL Yeah, it’s never just one feeling. It’s not like [yeah], “Oh ok. I know I’m going to feel exposed so I don’t want to do it,” because there’s things that make you want to share all of this like with people too. The internet’s not just like, “Uh well I don’t know what’s going to happen, so I’m outta here.” It’s very much like not one-sided. SWB And I think some people probably have that feeling. Like I don’t what’s going to happen, so I’m outta here. But clearly we don’t, because we keep doing this podcast [laughter]. And so we are—we have things we want to talk about and things that like… it’s not just about, like, “I want to talk about this,” or even, “I want other people to listen to me”—although I do, I want everybody in the world to listen to me. I’ve got a lot of opinions— but, that I think that the kinds of stuff that we’re talking about and sometimes struggling with are things that are really normal and that are under-discussed. And just the act of having natural conversations about them in a shared space is really powerful [yeah]. But also there is risk there, and I think that that’s one of the things that we have to kind of like constantly make peace with, or at least I feel that, that like I have to make peace with what kinds of risks those might be. And so, you know, we’ve talked about this in the past, right? It’s like, “If I tweet that, what kind of randos are going to come troll me?” And is it just going to be your, like, everyday rando that I can block, or is it going to be actually something more sinister? And like those are real like internal monologues that I’m having on a regular basis. At the same time, though, there’s something to me that’s a little different about both like podcasting and also something like a newsletter—or like, I subscribe to a lot of people’s Tiny Letters—that is a little bit more intimate feeling, and in some ways almost feels like there’s been a resurgence in that. And I look at it almost like a way to reclaim space. Or reclaim something that’s not exactly privacy, but that it feels a little bit more private in a world where so much of our communication feels so, like—actually as Lilly talked about—hyper-networked [chuckles]. [6:34] KL Mm hmm. Yeah. Or like, just branded. And that can feel weird too. I mean I love that some of my friends have Tiny Newsletters because I feel like I’m reading their journals, which is such a cool—it’s such a cool feeling, you know? JL It’s got that same feeling of like, you know, blogging back in the day, or like, you know, it felt just more like … I don’t know, more connected with the people. And I think that’s sort of like what’s nice about the podcast, too, and getting feedback about the podcast is I just feel like it’s a different way to be connected with people. SWB Blogging has certainly changed a lot and, you know, now it’s like, what’s the difference between a blog and an online publication? What is Medium? Like everything has sort of collapsed into like one big text box on the internet. And some of these spaces that we’re talking about give it a little bit of definition, you know? I think the same thing about a lot of the like private backchannel Slack accounts I’m in. I’m in a few of them that are like professionally focused, kind of… but what they really are is private communities of people who I’m close to for one reason or another where we can talk really openly and honestly about things that are happening in our professional world, but in a space where we have absolute trust with people. And I find that to be really valuable, and I feel like that’s where I turn so often to process how I’m feeling about things that are happening in the world. Where like that used to be Twitter, and that doesn’t always feel safe enough. Or sometimes it’s not even about safety. It’s like, sometimes that just feels too loud. KL Yeah. Well [quiet sigh] my therapist what says that what we’re doing is a gift. So. I just want to share that [laughing] with you. SWB Oh my god. If anybody listening has not listened to the episode where we interviewed Katel’s therapist, it is so good. Talk about a gift. Like that—that was a gift. KL That was really wonderful. JL And if anyone listening has not subscribed to our newsletter yet, you definitely should because it’s full of more little gifts. SWB If you aren’t subscribing to our newsletter, we started it about a month ago and we are doing it every other week. We have, like, super-intimate letters from us about things happening in our lives, plus a whole bunch of links and things that we love. And it is called, maybe fittingly, I Love That [laughter]. So if you go to noyougoshow.com/ilovethat, you can subscribe and you can also check out the back issues [music fades in, plays alone for four seconds, fades out]. [9:02] Sponsors SWB [Ad spot] Before we get to our interview with Lilly, we’ve got a couple awesome folks to tell you about. The first is Harvest. Harvest makes software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. It’s super easy to use on the web or via the app, and it’s made my work life way easier over the years. I’ve seriously been a customer since 2011. I can barely remember 2011. Harvest does all kinds of stuff, including integrate with other tools you love like Basecamp, Slack, and Trello. You can also send and manage invoices right from your Harvest account, and even take online payments. Try it for free at getharvest.com and get 50 percent off your first paid month with the code noyougo. That’s getharvest.com, offer code: noyougo. JL [Ad spot] We’d also like to take a moment and thank our friends at WordPress. WordPress has been a supporter of NYG since the start, and we’re big fans of theirs too. After all, it’s how we run our website, noyougoshow.com. We trust WordPress because it’s super easy to set up and customize, but it’s also really powerful. For example, we added plugins to host our podcast, and also gather sign-ups for our newsletter. You can even set up a ‘buy’ button or add an online store. Plans start at just four dollars a month, so what are you waiting for? Start building your website today. Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new plan purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off your brand new website [music fades in, plays alone for three seconds, fades out]. Interview: Lilly Chin JL Lilly Chin is a graduate student at MIT working towards a PhD in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. Her technical research interests are in robotics hardware design. She studies how old and new forms of media collide, chiefly in video games, film, and internet culture. You might recognize her name, as Lilly was also the 2017 College Jeopardy Tournament champion! And she even created a meme while doing so. Welcome to No, You Go, Lilly. Lilly Chin Yeah, it’s great to be here. JL Oh so we’re super excited that you’re here. We’re big fans of Jeopardy both at my house and at work [Lilly chuckles]. I have to tell you that we followed the College Tournament really intently, and we were definitely all rooting for you when you were on. LC Thanks [laughs]. JL [Laughs] We had this joke that I was going to miss who won because the final day of the tournament was also actually my son’s due date. LC Oh! Oh! Oh. [Laughs]. JL And uh, sure enough, I went into labor that morning. At one point during labor, I think I definitely said to my husband and doula, “I wonder who won College Jeopardy.” [Laughter] We were very stoked the next week to find out that it was you. [11:29] LC Oh thanks [laughs]. JL [Laughs] So what got you interested in being on Jeopardy? LC The RA from my dorm, actually, he had been on Jeopardy the summer before and we had all like made viewing parties and gone to see him. So when it came time for the test to be taken, he was like, “Oh, you all should just take it and see how you do.” And so it actually took a couple of tries before I was on the show, but then, yeah, my second time I tried out I got on. So. JL Nice! That’s awesome. What—what’s the audition process like? LC So it’s pretty cool. The first round is just this online test and it’s just really quick-fire, just asking you trivia questions. And if you do well enough on that, they invite you to an audition, which is in person. And the producers themselves definitely have a ton of energy because at the end of the day, Jeopardy’s a TV show. So they want to make sure that you’re really excited, that you have some sort of stage presence, and that, like, you know, you’re actually the person who took the exam since it’s all online. JL Hmm. Yes [laughs]. Were you nervous going into that? LC I was very nervous the first time, but the second time I actually was thinking like, “Oh, I have to go all the way to New York. It’s kind of a pain,” and I wasn’t even sure if I wanted to go. But I had a lot of fun, so I ended up just going. And I think being more relaxed the second time around helped me out, like, be more natural in front of the camera. JL When did—do you find out right away if you’re going to be on? LC Oh no, so for the tournament you actually have to wait for like a month or so. I had forgotten actually when I got the call that I was going to be on, and for adult Jeopardy you actually have to wait. You’re in the contestant pool for like a year and a half before, so you’re just waiting there. JL Wow! [Yeah] So when you found out and then you went to the show, what was the energy like on set there? LC That’s really interesting. because it’s—like you have 15 people that definitely don’t know each other just sort of randomly in this place. And the thing I was struck by was that the set was actually quite large, right? Like you’re so used to seeing it on the TV just like cutting from the clues to the contestants and back again, but like actually seeing it as a space that you inhabit, it was really interesting. I guess also the energy is [stammers] it’s just the same thing of like, oh I understand, all of these contestant producers are really trying to hype you up and have you really excited. And so at the end of the first day, I just immediately went to bed. I didn’t even have dinner or anything. Just like, conked out, because I was just so exhausted from being that high-energy. Yeah the next couple of times I went on the show actually it was a lot more comfortable, because I knew how sort of the filming schedule works. But it’s a very tiring experience. [13:46] JL How did you prepare for being on the show? LC So I did trivia in high school, so like Quiz Bowl and those things. So I had most of my trivia knowledge from there. But I would say like the one month before the show it was like learning about betting strategy, reading up of what the common questions are. I don’t think I did as much preparation as other people did, but definitely looking into betting strategy was a big one. JL I feel like it’s such a wide variety—like, you never really know. I mean there’s like some repeats on Jeopardy all the time in like topics but it’s like, how could you possibly narrow it all down? LC Yeah, I mean, it’s a funny thing, right? Because it’d still a TV show, so you need to have the answers be things that people at home will be like, “Oh! I’ve heard of this before.” So you can’t have it too obscure. I—I remember one thing funny though is that the popular culture is definitely like, right, like I’m a 2000s kid and so I think one of the things was like ’80s and ‘90s TV shows, and I was like, “Well, I know I’m not going to do well in this.” [laughter] Yeah. JL I know I think—my co-workers and I always watch that, and that’s, like, definitely our alley so [laughter]. So we mentioned a bit in the intro that you are also the creator of a meme, which happened during Final Jeopardy. Can you tell us that story? LC So I had seen like people give funny Final Jeopardy answers in the past. So I decided beforehand that, oh if I ever have a chance to do a lock game, like a game where I would win no matter what, I would put some funny answer down. And I decided to do “dank memes,” but then I was like, oh that’s probably not PG enough for Jeopardy, so I decided “spicy memes.” And then on the Final Jeopardy thing it turned out it was a “who is” question, so then I said, “Who is the spiciest memelord?” And got Alex Trebek to say it on national television [laughter]. [15:26] KL That’s amazing. LC Yeah. JL So it was not planned? LC I knew that like if I had the chance, I definitely wanted to say it, but it was also not planned for how viral of a reaction was gotten. Like it turned out—I was just thinking about my friends. Like, “we watch memes all the time at home, they’ll like it.” And then it turned out the internet also [laughs] really likes memes. So I did not plan for that at all. Yeah. JL Right. Yeah. How has that—how has that been? LC So I’ve been actually thinking about writing more academically about this experience, but this idea of the sudden burst of fame—like I was on the front page of Reddit twice, there’s like a million views on that video, and then it suddenly has a spike and then this long tail of just there’s still this ambient fame, especially since I’m still at MIT for graduate school where people, especially other students, will recognize me. But, you know, just the other day I was in the North End and got recognized on the street, and it’s not something I’m expecting. And this idea of like, you know, this sudden burst of fame. Like going up and then going down again and then suddenly like, “Oh reruns are happening, I’m getting a lot more Facebook messages from randos.” It’s sort of interesting, and it’s also interesting to be known more for Jeopardy than for my research, which is something I’m more excited about, I guess. But at the same time, the fame that I’ve gotten from Jeopardy might’ve helped me in terms of like recognition for my own research, right? Like whenever my advisor introduces me to someone else from a different lab, she’s like, “Oh do you know that this is the [laughing] Jeopardy winner?” [Laughter] So that’s an interesting balance. Yeah. JL You’ve even taught a class about this, right? At MIT? LC Yeah. So there’s an educational studies program where MIT undergrads and grad students can teach high school and middle school students. And so this was related with the comparative media studies part, where I really enjoy sort of showing that like it’s not just like analyzing books or film, like you can actually do all of these cool analyses of contemporary media culture. So that’s what I was trying to do was take my current case example and being like, “Look: here’s how these media analysis techniques can really help you understand what’s going on in your life, even if it’s something as weird as like national television.” [17:34] JL I mean have your views changed a lot about what it’s like to be a public figure? LC Yeah. I think I’m more confused—I get more and more confused about why people want to be famous. Like when I’m doing my Twitch streaming, I think it’s interesting that there’s always like these people who are like, “Oh I want to make it big,” and there’s some crazy statistic about one in three British children want to be a YouTube star when they grow up [laughter][oh]. Yeah it’s because I mean that’s what you’re growing up with, and that’s what you’re seeing as your content. It’s not like TV or movies as much anymore. It’s like, “Oh, I see these kids making videos on YouTube.” And I’m sort of like wondering why people want the fame, because like I kind of get it, right? Like I want my research to have exposure because then more people are thinking about my ideas and I think I really appreciate that. but then at the same time it’s like there’s so much attention to your life. Also like the harassment part of it, and it’s a weird public/private divide that I’m not sure people know fully what they’re getting into when they sign up for this. And some people enjoy being like a figure of controversy, right? Like Kanye West and Donald Trump come to mind, where it doesn’t matter what the press is but as long as people are talking about you, it sort of continues like some gratification. JL Right. I mean there’s—I mean you talked about being on the front page of Reddit and there’s also a Jeopardy community subreddit, and how does it feel to, like, look at people talking about you? LC I was worried at first that there was going to be—about the internet hate. And there’s a Woman of Jeopardy Facebook group where people sort of like commiserate about the experience. Yeah there’s a really good Vice article that’s called like, “Big Tits for $600,” and it’s just sort of like a very good compilation and just sort of talking about the experience of being a woman on national television and sort of what that means. So I was—I was a little bit nervous about that, because I had read these stories before, but when it came down to it and I saw what people were writing, it just sort of seemed so petty that people were coming up with these impressions of me after 20 minutes of national television. I was actually more taken aback the second time I went around for the Tournament of Champions where people were actually extremely nice and just sort of doing analysis of the game and less about me because I had braced myself for all of this verbal abuse, and then when it wasn’t there and people were just really kind it’s like, “Oh she tried really hard,” it was really not what I expected and sort of threw me off guard. JL For those who don’t know, on Reddit you can like you have like a little identifier that says that you were a contestant on the show to prove that it’s you. And I’ve seen like a couple of people definitely get into the threads with other people and reply to some of it, and I feel like a lot of is positive but then, you know, as you mentioned, like with women I’ll see a lot of comments like, “Oh her—” Not about you, about like other contestants that will be like, “Oh I hated her! Her voice was so annoying.” And it’s like wow! [Chuckles] People are harsh. [20:19] LC Yeah it’s just also like… in some sense of being like a female figure like in the—in the spotlight, it sort of puts you up. Like we’re so used to thinking about women in terms of their outward appearance that even when it’s on a very academic game like Jeopardy, people are still defaulting to thinking of it, like, as an object of attraction or something. JL You’ve talked about, you know, you have an interest in the “fight to maintain one’s identity and narrative in a hyper-mediated network culture.” [Mm hmm] Can you describe a bit what that means? LC What I found really is that … usually you have some control over your own identity. It’s very closely tied to you. Obviously you can’t control everything about what people think about but you, you know, you talk to people it forms an identity. But what happened is that with Jeopardy there was this very immediate division between myself and my image, right? So like millions of people saw me saying, “Who is the spiciest memelord?” on national television and so some people—so some people are trying to co-opt this as like, “Oh look! It’s a meme culture.” And then other people are like—Jeopardy itself is trying to co-opt this in saying like, “We need to target the 18 to 35 age demographic for advertisements and this is like, you know, a cool kid.” So they kind of go over and it’s like, “How do you do fellow kids?” And my friends from high school when they were like, “Why—why are you on my Instagram feed?” And I was like, “What?” And it turns out that they had used my image to advertise on Instagram to try to encourage more people to apply for the college test. Which I think is crazy like sure,  yeah, I signed off all my rights, but in some sense, right? Like their curation of my image is no longer outside my control. I’m like fighting against, you know, Jeopardy, I’m fighting against 4Chan, I’m fighting against all of these forces about who gets to control my image. So it becomes an interesting thing, because I think this happens on some level to everybody, right? There was a good article talking about how Snapchat is dying and this idea that even on Facebook, even on Twitter, all of these things were cultivating our own personal brand of how we want to come up with. That everything is now sort of a online interactive CV, and there’s not really a chance for you to be yourself because you’re worried about how it’s going to be taken either way. So not everyone has this experience of, like, “suddenly national television is taking my image and running with it,” but we’re always sort of trying to deal with this idea that now that everything’s on the internet, there’s so many different forces that you’re really trying to curate something, and is it even possible anymore? [22:47] JL Do you think it’s possible? LC I think in some sense you have to accept that like you no longer have control of your image which [chuckles] is—which is kind of like what I’m doing. But at the same time, so this is coming from a book I read from Jon Ronson, So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed. It’s this idea where individual people have to sort of be their own PR firm. That like you have to do, like, this brand curation. I think it is possible, but it becomes a lot more effort and you sort of have to understand what you’re doing, right? There’s a lot of talk about the right to be forgotten, because it’s like, oh kids don’t understand what they’re doing and you might say something dumb on the internet. I don’t think we ever had the right to be forgotten, like within your community—it’s the classic like, you know, small town, scarlet letter, everybody knows what you did wrong—but I think encouraging more people to understand how these forces happen and how to better protect yourself, I think that’s sort of the best you can do. JL I do a lot of public speaking in the web field and I remember like the first time that I got back from a conference and the conference had posted pictures of me, and of course I’m, like, in mid-word so my face is all distorted, and it’s just like, I’m like, “Oh my god, that’s awful!” But I was like, “Hey, I guess I made it.” [Laughter] And I remember now because I have like, you know, people will be like, “Hey, can you take a picture?” And then they’ll like, you’ll take a picture of them and they’ll want to see the picture to like see if it’s ok [yeah] and I don’t—that doesn’t happen to me anymore. Like I’ve just given up on that battle [right][chuckles], because I think there’s so many bad pictures of me on the internet. But I did a talk one time for a Girl Develop It group here which was like sort of trying to encourage more people to get into public speaking and it was just sort of like, you know, “What’s the worst that could happen?” And I went through and showed highlights of all the terrible pictures of me on the internet and it just sort of was like one of those, “Well, like really what is the worst-case scenario of this?” And sort of, “Is it that bad in protecting yourself, like maybe against the things that are really bad? Not things like, ‘Oh here’s an unflattering image of me’.” LC For public speaking, you go out there and you know really clearly that, “Oh I’m going to put out a face and I’m going to present myself and so I should prepare myself for, you know, being judged by other people.” But now with the internet, it’s less clear that really like anything that you do, like, it could be subject to like people seeing it and people making judgements of it. There was a famous case, which is Justine Sacco who made a tweet that was like, “Oh I’m going to Africa. Hope I don’t get AIDS. Just kidding, I’m white.” [Oh yes] Yeah. JL Before she got on a plane, right? LC Right. [25:15] JL And then she got off the plane and there was an obvious amount of backlash, yeah. LC And but the thing was, is that she only had like 200 followers before that, and so she probably thought, like, “Oh I’m just going to make this like off-color joke to like my 200 friends,” and then so what she thought was a private transaction actually blew up into like a huge like, you know, trending on Twitter like number-one thing. And I think that’s really the idea that I’m trying to get at is that it’s less clear what your private and public actions should be. So you sort of overprotectively try to curate everything. And then you sort of, like you were saying about the pictures, it’s almost impossible to do that. JL Right. So you know all of this, like you know all of the potential [laughs] for repercussions of being on the internet and what can happen. But that said, like, you are still like I think sort of embracing this public figure. So, as you mentioned before, you have a Twitch stream, right? LC Yeah. JL Tell us a little bit more about that. Like, what makes you stream? And what sort of things are you streaming? LC So I stream on Twitch, and Twitch is primarily for video games, and so I started streaming because one: I had the Jeopardy fame and I was like, “Oh, this would be a good platform to jump off on,” and two: a lot of my friends stream speed runs, which are trying to play video games super fast and I was like, oh, as a media scholar, I don’t understand why they do it so the easiest way to learn would be to do it myself. And it started off from this academic interest and then it turned into, I really appreciate the community. There are a couple of people from Scandinavia who like tune into me like super regularly, even though it’s like 3 am in Sweden time. And I find myself that like I’m putting on this like show for them, that I enjoy talking to them. I enjoy like, you know, discussing the video games, or like what’s going on in my life. And that’s sort of an interesting feeling, like it’s gone beyond just like, “Oh I want to put my ideas out there,” and it’s to, “I want to talk to these like two or three people,” and then I make more friends and it’s quite nice. JL It’s again that balance, right? Like here’s a potentially like field that we’re like opening ourselves to all this potential negativity, but you keep finding really positive things. [27:20] LC Because in some sense the reason why it is still [chuckles] a positive experience is because I have like, you know, ten people who watch me regularly on a twice-a-week basis, right? And similarly I have sort of private I guess IRC, you know, like internet chat channels that I do with my friends, and in some sense like the only reason that these are still nice is because they’re public, but they’re still private in a way. And sort of finding these spaces on like an increasingly networked world is difficult. In the past it used to be that you would be in these local communities, right? Like, “Oh, I live in the Cambridge area so I’ll like talk to all of the people in Cambridge and find similar things,” but now in some sense we’re creating local communities but on the internet. So it’s no longer local geographically but it’s local in terms of interests or maybe like respect for each other and things like that. JL Like you were you saying, you know, you just jumped into streaming because you wanted to learn more about, which is just so neat like to just like, “Ok. I’ve got an interest in something. I’m just going to do it,” is that generally how you live your life? LC Yeah. I definitely do things because like, “Oh, it’ll be a lot of fun.” Or like, “It’ll be a good story out of it.” The whole thing about doing the spiciest memelord was definitely like, “I’ll get a good story out of this,” or like, you know, even trying out for Jeopardy in the first place. JL I think that’s like such a neat idea. You know, I was reading a bit on your Reddit AMA, you had said, “One of my guiding principles for whether I’m wavering between whether or not I should do something is, will I get a good story out of it?” LC Yeah [laughing] exactly. JL This year the College Jeopardy Tournament of 2018 just happened and you also offered advice to the folks taking part in it. And you’ve also been an MIT Women in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science mentor. And worked with Girls Who Code. You are a mentor extraordinaire! LC Oh. I don’t know. It’s just like, I have advice and, like, I appreciate all the people who gave me advice. So it makes sense to just sort of give back because I can. Yeah, I don’t know, I thought it was interesting because recently someone came up to me and was like, “Hey, do you want to be part of my admissions consulting group, where like, you know, parents pay a lot of money and you, like, review essays and stuff like that?” And it just felt really bad like because—because on one level, right, I enjoy doing this work and like it would be nice to get paid for it. But on the other hand, it felt like contributing to these systems of like people not getting the mentorship that they need just because they don’t have the right networks or they don’t have a ton of cash, and it feels like the right thing to do is to—is to give back in whatever ways you can. Like oftentimes I feel like I’m not giving as much as I could. I was a MedLink in the dorm system, which basically like we’re students and we live in a dorm and we have basic first aid training. And we also know about all the medical resources on campus. So if people are having relationship troubles we can point them to mental health or, you know, if they got a cut we have band-aids and things. And I think that was one of like most rewarding experiences because it’s not just that, “Oh like I want to help people because like it boosts a resume,” or something like that. It’s just that people are—people are having trouble and you want to help them out how you can. I guess like I don’t see… I feel like I could do more for mentorship like because like, as you’re saying, like I’m doing a lot of different things, but at the same time I feel like being there and at least like reminding people that there is somebody who cares is important. [30:31] JL Right. It’s really neat so I mean you find it rewarding, I’m assuming. LC Yeah. Like I said I have a sort of insecurities about, am I actually doing enough to help people? Because when you’re doing so many things, like, is it on a superficial level or not? That’s why—that’s why I was a little—I was a little like taken aback when you were like, “Oh you’re a mentor extraordinaire.” Because on some level it’s just giving advice to people because you’ve been through these experiences and, you know, they haven’t. Even the older grad students when I’m freaking out about things and they’re just being like, “Yeah I freaked out about this too,” it’s sort of comforting [chuckles]. JL So what’s next? What has you super excited? LC I’m really excited about my research, especially now that it’s summertime because I don’t have—sort of going from undergrad to grad school is this transition away from other people are setting the curriculum, and like telling you what to learn, to I’m setting my own path and like my own research. So I’m working in soft robotics. So usually when you think of a robot it’s this hard metal skeleton, but soft robots is this thing, “Hey! What if we make robots out of rubber or silicone, like soft materials, so that they’re safer around people and they can pick up squishy things?” So I’ve been working on, how do we make these soft robots work? How do they grab things? I’m also really excited about sort of this Jeopardy paper that I’m doing: how do we think about fame and identity using myself as a case study, but sort of broadening it to other people. And then finally, I guess, the combination of these two interests is as robots are becoming more and more commonplace, as algorithms and big data are sort of changing the way we approach things, how can we have people still be like comfortable with this—with these new algorithms and things? Like it’s more than just like, “If I have the robot from the Jetson’s show up like can I interact with it?” It’s more on a fundamental level of when I say “AI” most people don’t know what this means. And it’s actually pretty understandable but we need to stop thinking about scientists as like, you know, these like mad scientists who are doing whatever they want in their lab coats and more of something approachable, especially as the future is heading towards that direction. [32:15] JL We’ve talked a little bit before with one of our previous guests, Alison, about this idea of what the scientist—the white man in the white lab coat. LC [Laughing] Yeah exactly. JL [Laughs] The crazy hair. And I think like generally, you know, you start talking about robots and generally there’s like the, either like, “I am intimidated by that subject,” or like, Skynet questions I think starts being thrown out. LC Yeah. I think, especially for my research, right? So soft robotics, it’s intentionally for like, you know, being around humans instead of not being in a factory somewhere, and I remember someone—there was a conversation about like, what does the future of work look like? And they were like, “Oh! You know, service jobs will be ok because who wants a robot to take care of grandma?” And I was like raising my hand, I was like, “Actually this is literally my [laughing] research!” And so on some level, I really want to tell people the thinking behind it of like the direction because I can’t predict the future of what research is going to be like, but to reduce the fear of like, “What does AI mean? What does deep learning mean?” I think would help people understand like, ok, like one: this is a future that I can understand; and two: this is a future where I can actually belong in. JL So, what are you telling people? LC So one thing that I need to keep remembering is that when I am not in MIT, and everyone’s working on like robots and drones and what have you, that like most people when they hear “robots” they’re like, “Woah! Like you must be really smart!” And I’m like, “Wait, no, I’m not. I’m not that smart.” And it’s just like—it’s just like, you know, you know how to build things, you know how to build things with Legos and stuff like that and when also when people hear “algorithms” they think of like ones and zeros flying everywhere, but at the end of the day an algorithm is just a set of instructions, you know. When you follow a recipe you’re already following an algorithm of some sort. So I think like, you know, it’s the same thing of like being able to talk about your experiences and sort of destigmatizing things whether it’s like, you know, “Math is hard,” or like, “Algorithms are mysterious black boxes.” I think just explaining things and, you know, being patient. I mean I think that people are going to realize at some point that robots are just a tool, right? And that like you still need to remember that like tools are for humanity. [34:23] JL Lilly, before you go, where will the next place be that we see you? LC Hopefully on, like, the cover of the New York Times for some cool robot research. KL Yes! Also you’re welcome back here anytime. JL Definitely! LC Oh, thank you! [Laughs] JL Please let us know how the soft robotics are going. And how we can make sure to [Katel laughs] welcome our new overlords. LC All right [chuckles]. JL So. KL Awesome. Thank you so much for being with us. LC Yeah, thanks for interviewing me [music fades in, plays alone for two seconds, fades out]. KL So this week I want to say a “fuck yeah” to Pride Month, because June is Pride Month and I’m—that’s awesome. It’s also my birthday. Just PS. Just letting you know. And, I don’t know, this got me thinking about some of the folks that I follow on Instagram, and one of them is a brand called Wild Fang, and I really love them because they like they really walk the walk. They’re—they—they sort of say they’re not just a brand, they’re a band. And I—I love that because they’re very focused on the people who buy their clothing, and their very feminist, and they like—you can see that in everything that they do, including the fact that they give a lot of money that they raise to charity. And this month a percentage of their proceeds is going to The Trevor Project, which is the world’s largest non-profit organization focused on suicide prevention and crisis intervention among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning youth, which is fucking amazing. So this just got me thinking and we sort of started talking a little bit about who we’re shopping and brands that we’re supporting and I think it just led us to talking about like paying attention to that a little bit more. [36:32] SWB Yeah. One of the things that I’ve really been noticing is just, it feels like there’s a lot more options all of a sudden for brands that I can support that are doing things that are important to me or that are offering products that are like just more inclusive and also just better suited to like me personally. And it seems like a big sea change that’s happening just in the last couple of years. Like for example I know a lot of folks go absolutely wild for Everlane, and one of the things Everlane does is like, they do luxury basics is their market. Luxury basics like reasonably priced or something. I don’t think that’s their actual tagline. And one of the things that they do is they tell you exactly how much of that money was spent on paying the garment workers, how much of it was spent on shipping, how much of it they get as profit, and so it’s really clear exactly where that money is going, and I think that that is, you know, that’s like one example of a way that they’re kind of trying to set some new standards. I’m really excited to see organizations that are like making cool shit with a good cause in mind, making cool shit that is going to serve a wider range of people, just making cool shit while throwing away some of the like bad practices of retail industry. KL Another place that I have bought a couple of things from which is just like a fun clothing shop that does like t-shirts and sweatshirts. It’s actually… I’m wearing this sweatshirt in my photo on the website and it says, “Smile,” and it has like a possum and it just has, “Smile,” is crossed out and it says, “Nope.” Which I fucking love. It’s like my favorite sweatshirt, and it’s by a company called Culture Flock, and they are a company that, quoting them, “believes in equality for all, being kind to others, and protecting the planet, and having fun every day.” And I love that because it’s very simple, but they’re also—we’ve talked about this on the show a couple of times, about like place and that you can do really fucking cool things in like a lot of different places—and they’re based in Springfield, Missouri, which I think is super cool. JL I’ve also been trying to remember to shop local. And trying to pick up things at like places nearby where I live, because just like people in Springfield, Missouri, there’s places everywhere that have a lot of—a lot of local, great shops near there. So I’ve been trying to remember to do that instead of doing my very easy and convenient ordering that I do sometimes, sometimes I’ll go down the street to get the baby shampoo that I need instead of ordering that and getting it in five days. KL Totally. It also like feels really good when you can see the person who is either, you know, either owns the shop where they’ve obviously done a lot of thinking about what they’re stocking there or, you know, they’ve even made it. It’s very cool to buy something directly from that person. JL Totally. [38:44] SWB I just really like the way that we are having a lot more conversations, at least like in the circles that I’m in and I think like in the circles that maybe a lot of our listeners are in, about sort of what we’re buying and where it’s from, and why we’re buying it, and it’s not to say that I’ve stopped all like bad impulse buys when it comes to, like, t-shirts that I think I’m going to love and then I don’t love or whatever. But it really has made me think a little bit more carefully about the way that I think about things like fashion, or the way that I think about like who and what I’m supporting. But yeah! I’m like really excited to see just a lot more options and a more stuff that I can feel better about and not just feel like I’m, you know, just spending money on fast fashion. So I guess I would say, fuck yeah to having way more options when it comes to places we could shop locally, places we could shop online, and maybe an even bigger fuck yeah to the fact that now I know what to get Katel for her birthday, which is definitely going to come from Wild Fang. KL Yesssssss. Fuck yeah! That’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia, and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Lilly Chin for being our guest today. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please make sure to subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcast. Aaaand subscribe to our newsletter! Your support helps us spread the word, and we love that. We’ll be back next week with another great guest [music fades in, plays alone for 34 seconds, fades out to end].

非常感谢热心听众【张仕泓-Sammy】对本文稿的贡献！准确率很高！Luo Yu: Right. It’s like ten percent of the students suffer from this learning disabilities. Yeah, I think in the future, teachers can do is that do not label the student as being having the lower IQ or being lazy (But this is not lower IQ though…I think…) I know, I know (Yeah…), but a lot of teachers actually label the students as being lazy or having lower IQ. This is definitely wrong. I think Hong Kong has done a very good example for the Chinese Mainland, because Hong Kong Municipality has trained teachers in more than two hundred schools to identify dyslexic students. Once they have been identified, they can be sent to, you know, special training program, and as He Yang has mentioned, they can be salvaged totally. Intervention is quite important because if the problem is identified in the first two years of the elementary school, almost ninety percent of this reading and writing problems could be solved completely. However, as you grow older, the success rate will be dropping as well. So I think intervention, well, identification is very important, and strengthening of the schooling system is also very important. (Yeah) In China, nationwide, we only have less than five social organizations offering services for dyslexia (Yeah) students.Heyang: Yeah, and I think this is certainly one area that just doesn’t get any attention and that’s why I keep on saying dyslexia and 读写障碍 in Chinese. I want everybody to know about this. As I think this is something we can learn a lot from foreign experiences. It’s just, I can’t believe me saying this, but a couple of years ago, I used to think that dyslexia only exist in English, because I’ve only seen studies and thorough discussions of this topic in English, and I simply thought this is nothing to do with Chinese, when actually there is simply just no awareness as such. And apparently the timely intervention is really important that according to experts, they say the best time to intervene is before the age of twelve. (Yeah) So, yeah, like Luo Yu said earlier, this needs the expertise and the patience of teachers that sometimes these kids they’re not being lazy. They are not just messing around. That they’re trying to tell you or they don’t how to tell you that “I am sorry, I simply don’t get this the way you’re teaching me and I am having a problem but I don’t realize this is a disorder.” And parents need to realize this too so you can give your kid a helping hand in that kind of situation too.Ryan: Yeah, sounds like a… maybe a test, not a test like to tell if they are, like a test to tell how they learn. Because a test to tell how they learn at a young age sounds like you can better fit them in the classes that would be able to teach them and get them out this funk. So they’ll become part of ninety percent that do fix this problem. But you now, I’ll take you to another level, I will even say that people learn, just regular people, everybody learns in different ways, like in US, we always talk about it. There is audial people that like to hear things… like listening to lectures is how they learn. There is other people that have to, like write it down. They are actually they have to engage in do something while they listening to this information for them to retain it. And there is people that learn just by watching but they are so many different ways for people to learn and how they excel. Yet we have one standardized unilateral way for teaching them. So it’s interesting because these people can flourish if they are put into the right kind of classroom. (Yeah…)Luo Yu: I do agree, because people should have diversified growth patterns, and according to some of the researchers from Yale University, Sally Shaywitz and Bennett Shaywitz, they argue in their joint research that people with dyslexia tend to be more creative and also they say youngsters’ reading skills could be improved through proper training techniques and tools. That’s no wonder probably maybe Albert Einstein or Steve Jobs have captured their parents’ or teachers’ attention, and then they got the proper training, but probably that will not be the case in China, and we could possibly lose someone talented as Albert Einstein and Steve Jobs here in China.Ryan: I totally agree with that. In fact, words out of my mouth, I totally agree. I think better plans and better ways to identify and find these kids at a young age will help the world see more Albert Einstein and Steve Jobs which could make this world a much more convenient and a better place where we really flourish as a society, right, instead of just having one standardized way to teach people who are all so different when it comes to learning. Heyang: That is so true. That is so true. And, Wow, I think I’ve leaned a lot from you guys, and yeah, I’m really happy about this discussion and I just wanna finish on the note of Xiao Jingteng. (Laughing) Because back to what he said in the various interviews and I’ve watched them all, yes, he didn’t find the kind of support in his school, but there was this body on campus that was not about academic endeavors, and it was about, well, listening to music, and he found Bon Jovi, and I found Bon Jovi when I was a little kid too, and that led to my interest in Rock & Roll music and led to Xiao Jingteng, and wanting to write that kind of music when he grows up. And look at where he is now, and he still finds it difficult to read out some of the scripts that’s been given to him as I think he’s passed the window to cure dyslexia, but don’t let this stop you, there are always a way.Ryan: Yeah, you should never feel bad because maybe he can’t follow down someone else’s path, reading books and becoming a super huge academic, but he is a rock star, (Yeah…) look how cool is that, my hat is off to you, sir.Heyang: Yeah, Mr. Xiao Jingteng, and, wow, (laughing) yeah, even more happier now.